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pregodego2
11-19-2008, 02:43 AM
I don't think this statment is anything relevent. Casey DID describe caylee's last clothing attire when she went "missing". I think all she was implying is "how can they think she's dead if they haven't even found her clothes". It's so unimportant and doesn't mean she knows the clothing and caylee are in 2 different places.

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 02:48 AM
http://www.wesh.com/news/18009037/detail.html
Please, if you suffer from hypertension; don't bother reading.
On Oct. 14, I posted this from NG show:

LP: But Nancy, let me take you back to the shovel. She backs the car into the garage, she takes the child, lays her down, takes her clothes off, moves the ladder towards the edge of the pool, puts the child in the pool, gonna make it look like a drowning. The child drops to the bottom of the pool, she goes to the neighbors, pulls the shovel from the neighbor, comes back up, scoops the child up, puts her back down on the grass. Anyhow, all I'm sayin' is, there's your shovel, there's your shovel.

Nancy: Let me just say one line, the search for chloroform shows me that there was never any accident, you're saying that that would explain......

LP: You're correct, she wanted to make it look like a 911 accident. But it never happened, never happened.

Nancy: Understood, understood.
.................................................. ..................
I heard Leonard say on tv yesterday that the reason she borrowed the shovel was so that she didn't have to get in the pool with Caylee to get her out.

At the time I thought why on earth would he say that Casey took Caylee's clothes off. Now it makes sense.

What is it with this girl ? How stupid could she possibly be ?
She signs her own name on one of Amy's checks at the bank, in full view of the security cameras, she's virtually left her own calling cards every place she's been, and she just blurts this out ?

We're being bombarded by bombshells; I can't even keep up right now. And if you think we're shocked now, just think about the evidence we haven't even heard yet.

Taking that child's life is horrible enough, but to take her clothes off, and discard her naked ? That is VILE. My brain can't even take this in. It's despicable. :furious:

everyoneneedsavoice
11-19-2008, 02:49 AM
You know, I remember the BlackHawk diver saying on NG that they wouldn't be bit underwater because the gators can't open their mouths underwater because of some flap in their throat, I think. If that is the case, then I think Caylee's remains could still be IN the river if she was thrown IN the river. ??


I remember the diver saying that on NG. I did a little research after hearing say that, as it was interesting and new to me. Here's a little of what I found.

From: http://alligatorfur.com/edu/pete.htm

Alligators have a cartilaginous flap of tissue at the back of the tongue that perfectly fits the inside shape of the throat. It fits so well that the alligator can open its mouth to catch and crush food underwater without letting water into its throat or lungs, but to swallow the food the alligator has to raise its head out of the water to let the food slide past the throat valve to get into the esophagus leading to its stomach. The valve flap has another use. It helps the alligator bellow by regulating the volume of air being expelled by the alligator when it exhales as it roars.

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 02:51 AM
http://www.wesh.com/news/18009037/detail.html
Please, if you suffer from hypertension; don't bother reading.

You know, it seems to me that this is as good as a confession.

LinasK
11-19-2008, 02:51 AM
I don't think this statment is anything relevent. Casey DID describe caylee's last clothing attire when she went "missing". I think all she was implying is "how can they think she's dead if they haven't even found her clothes". It's so unimportant and doesn't mean she knows the clothing and caylee are in 2 different places.

Then it shows her arrogance or stupidity to think that finding clothing is necessary any more than a body to determine/declare a person dead. This was an OMG:eek::eek::eek: statement for me! Just like when Scott Peterson told Amber it would be his first Christmas without his wife.

JaneInOz
11-19-2008, 03:01 AM
On Oct. 14, I posted this from NG show:

LP: But Nancy, let me take you back to the shovel. She backs the car into the garage, she takes the child, lays her down, takes her clothes off, moves the ladder towards the edge of the pool, puts the child in the pool, gonna make it look like a drowning. The child drops to the bottom of the pool, she goes to the neighbors, pulls the shovel from the neighbor, comes back up, scoops the child up, puts her back down on the grass. Anyhow, all I'm sayin' is, there's your shovel, there's your shovel.

Nancy: Let me just say one line, the search for chloroform shows me that there was never any accident, you're saying that that would explain......

LP: You're correct, she wanted to make it look like a 911 accident. But it never happened, never happened.

Nancy: Understood, understood.
.................................................. ..................
I heard Leonard say on tv yesterday that the reason she borrowed the shovel was so that she didn't have to get in the pool with Caylee to get her out.

At the time I thought why on earth would he say that Casey took Caylee's clothes off. Now it makes sense.

What is it with this girl ? How stupid could she possibly be ?
She signs her own name on one of Amy's checks at the bank, in full view of the security cameras, she's virtually left her own calling cards every place she's been, and she just blurts this out ?

We're being bombarded by bombshells; I can't even keep up right now. And if you think we're shocked now, just think about the evidence we haven't even heard yet.

Taking that child's life is horrible enough, but to take her clothes off, and discard her naked ? That is VILE. My brain can't even take this in. It's despicable. :furious:


I'm confused :confused: is that just LP surmising what could have happened ?
Do you know how difficult it would be to get a shovel into the pool to scoop a child out from the bottom ? Water becomes heavy when you want to put something in move it like a oar from a boat.. you'd have to be strong.

I cant see that myself

California Dreamer
11-19-2008, 03:02 AM
I remember the diver saying that on NG. I did a little research after hearing say that, as it was interesting and new to me. Here's a little of what I found.

From: http://alligatorfur.com/edu/pete.htm

Alligators have a cartilaginous flap of tissue at the back of the tongue that perfectly fits the inside shape of the throat. It fits so well that the alligator can open its mouth to catch and crush food underwater without letting water into its throat or lungs, but to swallow the food the alligator has to raise its head out of the water to let the food slide past the throat valve to get into the esophagus leading to its stomach. The valve flap has another use. It helps the alligator bellow by regulating the volume of air being expelled by the alligator when it exhales as it roars.
That is very interesting - thank you for locating it and sharing. In light of that, I still wouldn't want to be one of those divers...YIKES!!! :eek:

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 03:05 AM
It makes me think that she removed the clothes due to the smell (urine, feces, vomit, etc.) soon after her death and disposed of them thinking more about the immediate situation than what was to come with the decomp of the body.

How could she do all this without throwing up ??

Just the thought of this makes me gag. :puke:

I wonder how many of her former boyfriends are taking long hot showers right about now.

JaneInOz
11-19-2008, 03:16 AM
How could she do all this without throwing up ??

Just the thought of this makes me gag. :puke:

I wonder how many of her former boyfriends are taking long hot showers right about now.



I know :( I cant even think about it or I will start bawling my eyes out
I have a daughter
I cant imagine it
I feel totally sickened by some of the stuff today that I have read in the evidence files and so on, that makes me angry at myself for ever thinking it was a accident and she freaked, Now I KNOW that isnt the case and that she absolutely premeditated it and I just want to cry...

How could a mother do this to their own child *cry* and carry on like nothing happend and go partying

Thinaire
11-19-2008, 03:41 AM
....Absolutely, and after they threw me to the ground in JB Park, they threw Klee into the car with all these other children who I could see starting to strip the clothes off her. As they drove away, I could see clothing flying out of the car, but when I ran to pick it up, two dead squirrels dropped out of a tree above me, hit me on the head and knocked me unconscious. When I woke up some time later, the clothes were nowhere to be found, so I picked up the dead squirrels, put them in my car and drove to a neutral location to watch vids, cook lasagna, get a couple of bad checks ready to cash, come up with a matching club outfit and have sex. But I SAW clothes come out of the car, didn't see the license number, but I ABSOLUTELY saw clothing. I know she's close and safe with nice people who won't hurt her or kill my family as long as I keep my mouth shut!

Yolorado! How on earth did you get a hold of Jose's defense SCRIPT??? :crazy::crazy::crazy:

Thinaire
11-19-2008, 03:48 AM
The thing that gives me headaches here is: Who on earth to believe?

KC: she was wearing?

George: I saw her last and she was wearing

CA: blah-blah-prattle-prattle

Lee: inapropriate laughter

All of them LIE so unless there are receipts for every article of clothing Caylee had...LE is once again wading through the Anthony muck...

The only way IF any clothing is/has been found can be ID'ed if there is trace DNA...not likely after months...or a neighbor, store employee, friend had seen Caylee on that fateful night (?) day.

The only thing that makes it only a bad headache is...LE is NOT popping up on TV to rebut every act in the circus...which I PRAY means they are in the catbird seat...

bamafide
11-19-2008, 04:43 AM
I just wonder if they would be honest about anything missing anyway or if they would even notice one outfit. I have a bedroom full of toys and clothes at my house for my granddaughter and to be honest if one outfit was missing, I would probably not notice. Unless, of course it was one she wore on a special occasion or one of my favorites.

Thats exactly what I think too....if one outfit was missing I'd never know it. I find things around my house all the time and do the, "Ah, I forgot all about having this." jmo

mysteriew
11-19-2008, 06:17 AM
Ok I have been up all nite and so this may be really off the wall. But I was thinking about this tonight and about the report that KC liked watching CSI shows. One thing that has always struck me about the CSI shows is that when they interview, the person being interviewed never says things right out plain- even if they are innocent. They kinda hint and talk around what really happened.

The report of KC saying that they haven't even found her clothes reminded me of something else that KC allegedly said earlier. That if they had listened to her they would have found Caylee. We thought she meant that they should have listened to her about ZFG, but we knew that was a dead end.

What if KC arranged some macabre treasure hunt. She may have arranged her clues to implicate someone else, so she cannot just say this is where Caylee is. If you think of it like a CSI episode, she may have planned to lead LE indirectly to the clues, leading up to an ah ha moment where Caylee is found and a suspect (not her) is found. Not realizing that people don't think like her, and don't understand her clues. And thus her seeming to be disgusted with LE for not finding the clues and Caylee. Because it is plain in her mind.

ZFG/Zanny/nanny/kidnapping was nothing more than the "vessel" to get all of the clues in. She talked about Blanchard Park- so maybe the cross that was found was one clue she arranged. I heard it was found on a jogging path, so the clues are probably not well hidden. Just maybe not easily recognized.

She talked about Universal, but I think that is a dead end because it wasn't related to Caylee. I think LE trued to use that to break her and make her realize that her story wasn"t believeable. I don't think she really intended that as a clue. She allegedly warned her parents against Jesse.... could another clue be near Jesse??? What else has she said that may have been hints toward where a clue might be?

We may have to look at what she has said, not at face value but more like it might have been presented in a TV show. After all, that may have been her model for this.

21merc7
11-19-2008, 06:29 AM
mysteryview that is not too off the wall. At first I thought she may have said it to be a smart a**, just messing with them. Then I thought how dumb is that when she knows they think she killed her, this would be used against her. It is possible she put things all over the place, but maybe with the intention of having LE look in opposite directions. She does like to think she is cat and everyone else is mouse.

magnolia
11-19-2008, 07:05 AM
I'm confused :confused: is that just LP surmising what could have happened ?
Do you know how difficult it would be to get a shovel into the pool to scoop a child out from the bottom ? Water becomes heavy when you want to put something in move it like a oar from a boat.. you'd have to be strong.

I cant see that myself

We had a 4ft. deep above ground yrs. ago. No way I could have fished something the size of Caylee's body out with a shovel. Although petite, I'm no weakling either.

I think it would even be a difficult task for my hubby to fish something that size from the bottom of a pool without falling in.

However, high adrenalin gives people strength to accomplish tasks that we think would be difficult or impossible to accomplish.

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 07:11 AM
I think I remember the last thing anyone saw her in was George, a pink blouse and a jean skirt

(You know what ? I don't buy this about the blouse and skirt. I cannot tell you what I wore 31 days ago. Can any of you remember what your child wore 31 days ago ?)

karenz
11-19-2008, 07:17 AM
....Absolutely, and after they threw me to the ground in JB Park, they threw Klee into the car with all these other children who I could see starting to strip the clothes off her. As they drove away, I could see clothing flying out of the car, but when I ran to pick it up, two dead squirrels dropped out of a tree above me, hit me on the head and knocked me unconscious. When I woke up some time later, the clothes were nowhere to be found, so I picked up the dead squirrels, put them in my car and drove to a neutral location to watch vids, cook lasagna, get a couple of bad checks ready to cash, come up with a matching club outfit and have sex. But I SAW clothes come out of the car, didn't see the license number, but I ABSOLUTELY saw clothing. I know she's close and safe with nice people who won't hurt her or kill my family as long as I keep my mouth shut!

Tee Hee! OOOOOOH JB. Now I understand. Yes, KC is mother of the year. It explains it all.

Dolphinmomcca
11-19-2008, 07:17 AM
Great ideas here. I also think that she meant "I can't believe they haven't even found those yet." So it makes me also think that they could be in the backyard (or were at some point). People have mentioned how she couldn't have dug a grave in her backyard to bury Caylee in the short amount of time she had the shovel, but she could have had enough time just to bury some clothes. Maybe the clothes were put down on the grass/ground here and there as she was looking for a place to dig, therefore the dogs hitting on areas where the clothes might have been above ground, but missed them if they are buried deeper.

Under the hydragia (sorry spelling!) bush? Didnt Cindy mentioned they replanted one of the bushes in the back yard?

BonKai
11-19-2008, 07:22 AM
I don't think this statment is anything relevent. Casey DID describe caylee's last clothing attire when she went "missing". I think all she was implying is "how can they think she's dead if they haven't even found her clothes". It's so unimportant and doesn't mean she knows the clothing and caylee are in 2 different places.

I thought George described what Caylee was wearing. Did Casey do that as well? Is there documentation released of Casey's description?

Casey is maintaining that Caylee was kidnapped. Why would Caylee's clothes be found if she were kidnapped? You think the kidnappers threw Caylee's clothes out where they could be found?

I believe this statement is highly relevent.

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 07:52 AM
You know how sometimes you have one of those thoughts that flashes into your head, literally makes you sick and then won't go away. Yeah, here's mine for today.
IF Casey made this statement and she made it in a certain context, it would indicate that Caylee's clothes are not with her body. Which means that Caylee;s body would most likely be naked. Is Casey sick enough to do something to her own child to simulate a sexual assault? No one would say it was her if they had found Caylee's body in time to prove that she was molested shortly before death.
I have a hard time fathoming that one. I really do. Parents kill their kids all the time, but for her to do that to her...I just have no more words. And I am sorry to share this very graphic thought, but it won't leave.

"If they never find her, guess who spends eternity in jail?"

Remember Casey saying that to Lee during a jail visit ?

grammieto5
11-19-2008, 07:56 AM
Who do you think was dead and decomposing in KC's trunk?

The two "dead" squerrils who crawled inside the car. Seriously, I just want so badly for this child to be alive, just some wishful thinking. I forgot about the car.

dkitty
11-19-2008, 08:04 AM
Under the hydragia (sorry spelling!) bush? Didnt Cindy mentioned they replanted one of the bushes in the back yard?

I think that bush should be dug up and looked under...She could have been bought back to the house after the dogs left and put under that bush.....

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 08:09 AM
Thank you, at this point, I would use a blowtorch if it would get rid of that thought.
Cripes, I'm sorry about my post. I'm not caught up on this thread yet.

shelbar53
11-19-2008, 08:15 AM
It makes me think that she removed the clothes due to the smell (urine, feces, vomit, etc.) soon after her death and disposed of them thinking more about the immediate situation than what was to come with the decomp of the body.

This is as far as I read. The implication of what she has done just maked me so sad. From what I am understanding this to mean, is that casey took off caylees cloths and put them somewhere else. Now that poor little baby is naked and dumped somewhere, all alone naked. I can hope casey would have wrapped her in a blanket. To kill a child is horrible, but to not care about the "remains" after death is just plain evil. I cant stand the thought of that poor baby purposefully being undressed and laid naked someone in the cold exposed to animals.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 08:26 AM
Thats exactly what I think too....if one outfit was missing I'd never know it. I find things around my house all the time and do the, "Ah, I forgot all about having this." jmoIt is not likely that Cindy forgets anything in that house she bought and cleans. How could she throw it up in the perp's face constantly if she did that?! LOL Seriously tho...Cindy has everything just so-so in her house including clothes. Look how quickly she found that too little mickey mouse dress. Went right to it, I suppose. Caylee had not been able to wear that dress for a long time, too.

debs
11-19-2008, 08:27 AM
Casey is barely 5 feet tall. A shovel is approximately that tall. The pool in the backyard is easily that tall, even if the water level inside is only 4 ft. In order for Casey to have gotten Caylee into the pool, it would require her balancing up the ladder, which is possible. Dropping Caylee in, then, is a possibility.

Once Caylee's body is in the pool and sunk to the bottom, however, Casey, the shovel, the ladder, and the depth of the pool all work against a theory of using a shovel to scoop out Caylee. There is no way Casey would be capable (adrenalin or no) of reaching the body with the shovel at an angle that would make it possible. The drag of the water on the shovel, as someone pointed out, would be like that of an oar in water. She would have to drag toward herself if positioned on the ladder, then maneuver in such a way that she could leverage the shovel against the drag to pull up a 30 lb dead weight. The incredible force needed to do this nearly eliminates this theory as a likely possibility.

If Casey actually got into the pool with Caylee, it makes no sense that she would use a shovel to scoop up Caylee. Once in the water with Caylee and a shovel, it would require Casey lifting the shovel, fighting the drag of the water with the dead weight, up and over her head. The force needed for this again makes it an unlikely theory.

So why did Casey need the shovel? Occam's Razor says: All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best. Casey had to dig a hole. What could she have needed to dig for in this particular time period? She needed to put something in the ground or take something out of the ground.

The what and why are the speculative facts.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 08:32 AM
This is as far as I read. The implication of what she has done just maked me so sad. From what I am understanding this to mean, is that casey took off caylees clothes and put them somewhere else. Now that poor little baby is naked and dumped somewhere, all alone naked. I can hope casey would have wrapped her in a blanket. To kill a child is horrible, but to not care about the "remains" after death is just plain evil. I cant stand the thought of that poor baby purposefully being undressed and laid naked someone in the cold exposed to animals.Dressed or not, the perp didn't care before, during, or after for Caylee. She planned this to begin with then carried it out. She is evil to the bone. I think she is wrapped in something, personally...but not because the perp cared, but because it was more convenient to move Caylee's remains around. :(

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 08:42 AM
(You know what ? I don't buy this about the blouse and skirt. I cannot tell you what I wore 31 days ago. Can any of you remember what your child wore 31 days ago ?)I totally agree. Most people could not because there was nothing happening that particular time which would make it stand out in George's mind. However, Casey would know since she dressed her and undressed her that day (possibly). I think she told George what she was wearing and since GA recalled seeing her in that outfit before just stuck with it in his story (false or planted memory). That is unless George saw her later after she was dead with those clothes or they were left in the car.

Skully
11-19-2008, 08:43 AM
It seems to me that she expected these clothes to be found, where could they be? It must be somewhere near that sawgrass place, because if that was her story of where caylee was last seen by her she would have wanted something of caylee's to be found there to solidify her (idiotic) story.

Hmmmm


I keep thinking that the dog hit in the backyard maybe her cloths. maybe there was decomp on the cloths and they were in the truck and she had already gotten rid of the body and needed to hid some things that smelled. I don't think KC would risk putting her body back there too risky someone may find her; and she was too big to fit under the playhouse. What if she buried them under the playhouse, BEFORE George put down pavers. He may have found them on July 4 and thought WTF and just threw them away. So when they get the car and smell the smell they run to the backyard first!!!

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 08:45 AM
The force needed for this again makes it an unlikely theory.

So why did Casey need the shovel? Occam's Razor says: All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best. Casey had to dig a hole. What could she have needed to dig for in this particular time period? She needed to put something in the ground or take something out of the ground.

The what and why are the speculative facts.I agree. I don't think the pool had anything to do with Caylee's murder unless she used pool water to wash off dirt before giving it back to the neighbor.

TakeNote
11-19-2008, 08:45 AM
Ok I have been up all nite and so this may be really off the wall. But I was thinking about this tonight and about the report that KC liked watching CSI shows. One thing that has always struck me about the CSI shows is that when they interview, the person being interviewed never says things right out plain- even if they are innocent. They kinda hint and talk around what really happened.

The report of KC saying that they haven't even found her clothes reminded me of something else that KC allegedly said earlier. That if they had listened to her they would have found Caylee. We thought she meant that they should have listened to her about ZFG, but we knew that was a dead end.

What if KC arranged some macabre treasure hunt. She may have arranged her clues to implicate someone else, so she cannot just say this is where Caylee is. If you think of it like a CSI episode, she may have planned to lead LE indirectly to the clues, leading up to an ah ha moment where Caylee is found and a suspect (not her) is found. Not realizing that people don't think like her, and don't understand her clues. And thus her seeming to be disgusted with LE for not finding the clues and Caylee. Because it is plain in her mind.

ZFG/Zanny/nanny/kidnapping was nothing more than the "vessel" to get all of the clues in. She talked about Blanchard Park- so maybe the cross that was found was one clue she arranged. I heard it was found on a jogging path, so the clues are probably not well hidden. Just maybe not easily recognized.

She talked about Universal, but I think that is a dead end because it wasn't related to Caylee. I think LE trued to use that to break her and make her realize that her story wasn"t believeable. I don't think she really intended that as a clue. She allegedly warned her parents against Jesse.... could another clue be near Jesse??? What else has she said that may have been hints toward where a clue might be?

We may have to look at what she has said, not at face value but more like it might have been presented in a TV show. After all, that may have been her model for this.

I really like what you are thinking....there is to many weird things in this case......maybe a thread on things that KC said that striked us odd...nothing that GA or CA or anyone else......only KC......

KC asked her mom to give her one more day? why? did she not finish her plan?
why did she wear the clothes she stole
why did she cash those checks at the bank in clear site of the cameras?
why the cross necklace
why the statements:
if they only had listen to me they would have found Caylee
they cant even find her clothes-meaning the clothes are in plain site
she is close to home
she had a script to follow-meaning KC made a plan?
they wont break me-meaning tell them where Caylee is
why the warning against Jess-he was her friend
I have not seen my daughter in 31 days-not she was lost or stolen-physicaly seen with her eyes
KC tatoo
Deleating all of her photos

anyone else? want to brain storm on what struck out the most? in your mind I know we have talked about all of them and differnt therios...maybe we can see what stood out the most and focus on that .....remember its what KC said not anyone else and you cant make it a fact or lie out of what she said.....only the words she said ....that struck you...does that make since....Ive been up all night cant sleep :) and sorry for spelling mistakes..:crazy:

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 08:55 AM
It is not likely that Cindy forgets anything in that house she bought and cleans. How could she throw it up in the perp's face constantly if she did that?! LOL Seriously tho...Cindy has everything just so-so in her house including clothes. Look how quickly she found that too little mickey mouse dress. Went right to it, I suppose. Caylee had not been able to wear that dress for a long time, too.

On this note: Look at the Belle dress Kaylee is wearing in the pictures- Size 6 for sure- My 2 yr old Gdaughter wears a siz 4-6x in this dress as well, The Minnie Mouse dress in Kaylee's picture was an infants or toddler 2-3, which is recommended for children smaller than an actual size 2-3. I bought many costumes, but had to get size 4-6x. So, I don't buy CA's showing the dress on TV as relevant. They may have bought another to fit her after she was 2 yrs, old. Besides, Minnie dresses are costumes, not normal clothing, nor normal clothing sizes.

On another note: If KC wanted the last contact with Kaylee to be about her and Kaylee and not CA- maybe she took off anything to do with CA and either dispose of the body naked or did she buy a pretty little dress for her?
Also, I vaguely recall that the bar-b-que had been recently used in the yard-
the clothes may have been burned in it. H-h-mmmm!

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 08:58 AM
Ok I have been up all nite and so this may be really off the wall. But I was thinking about this tonight and about the report that KC liked watching CSI shows. One thing that has always struck me about the CSI shows is that when they interview, the person being interviewed never says things right out plain- even if they are innocent. They kinda hint and talk around what really happened.

The report of KC saying that they haven't even found her clothes reminded me of something else that KC allegedly said earlier. That if they had listened to her they would have found Caylee. We thought she meant that they should have listened to her about ZFG, but we knew that was a dead end.

What if KC arranged some macabre treasure hunt. She may have arranged her clues to implicate someone else, so she cannot just say this is where Caylee is. If you think of it like a CSI episode, she may have planned to lead LE indirectly to the clues, leading up to an ah ha moment where Caylee is found and a suspect (not her) is found. Not realizing that people don't think like her, and don't understand her clues. And thus her seeming to be disgusted with LE for not finding the clues and Caylee. Because it is plain in her mind.
ZFG/Zanny/nanny/kidnapping was nothing more than the "vessel" to get all of the clues in. She talked about Blanchard Park- so maybe the cross that was found was one clue she arranged. I heard it was found on a jogging path, so the clues are probably not well hidden. Just maybe not easily recognized.

She talked about Universal, but I think that is a dead end because it wasn't related to Caylee. I think LE trued to use that to break her and make her realize that her story wasn"t believeable. I don't think she really intended that as a clue. She allegedly warned her parents against Jesse.... could another clue be near Jesse??? What else has she said that may have been hints toward where a clue might be?

We may have to look at what she has said, not at face value but more like it might have been presented in a TV show. After all, that may have been her model for this.I agree with a lot of what you said, but after Princess Rose (please see post http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2961241&postcount=216) said that about Universal's policy of looking for clothing in the restrooms to indicate a kidnapping....the Universal thing really hit home to me. (It could be this has been mentioned in certain circles as a defense strategy against her statement. It could backfire on them!)

The perp taking them there knowing they would find she didn't work there would figure into this scenario. Reread what she said about her reasons for being there with LE. She also told Lee she went back there (work or fun ? could be when she planted all this stuff). She mentioned losing her phone there and telling security (phone with the clothes perhaps or another clue in her treasure hunt ?).

LE needs to go back to Universal and comb through their reports of found items during the time right after Caylee went missing. They do need to talk to all their security teams in an effort to see if anything was missed at the park (Universal). A large daunting task, but could put them on the right track to find her body. (No, I do not believe she left her body at Universal...just the initial clues to a fake kidnapping.)

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 09:03 AM
On this note: Look at the Belle dress Kaylee is wearing in the pictures- Size 6 for sure- My 2 yr old Gdaughter wears a siz 4-6x in this dress as well, The Minnie Mouse dress in Kaylee's picture was an infants or toddler 2-3, which is recommended for children smaller than an actual size 2-3. I bought many costumes, but had to get size 4-6x. So, I don't buy CA's showing the dress on TV as relevant. They may have bought another to fit her after she was 2 yrs, old. Besides, Minnie dresses are costumes, not normal clothing, nor normal clothing sizes.

On another note: If KC wanted the last contact with Kaylee to be about her and Kaylee and not CA- maybe she took off anything to do with CA and either dispose of the body naked or did she buy a pretty little dress for her?
Also, I vaguely recall that the bar-b-que had been recently used in the yard-
the clothes may have been burned in it. H-h-mmmm! I believe the dress that Cindy was holding and claiming to be Caylee's was an 18 mos. LE has determined that dress they found was not connected to Caylee.

I don't think she cared enough to worry about what Caylee was wearing or not wearing after she killed her. We know she didn't buy Caylee anything.

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 09:04 AM
I really like what you are thinking....there is to many weird things in this case......maybe a thread on things that KC said that striked us odd...nothing that GA or CA or anyone else......only KC......

KC asked her mom to give her one more day? why? did she not finish her plan?
why did she wear the clothes she stole
why did she cash those checks at the bank in clear site of the cameras?
why the cross necklace
why the statements:
if they only had listen to me they would have found Caylee
they cant even find her clothes-meaning the clothes are in plain site
she is close to home
she had a script to follow-meaning KC made a plan?
they wont break me-meaning tell them where Caylee is
why the warning against Jess-he was her friend
I have not seen my daughter in 31 days-not she was lost or stolen-physicaly seen with her eyes
KC tatoo
Deleating all of her photos

anyone else? want to brain storm on what struck out the most? in your mind I know we have talked about all of them and differnt therios...maybe we can see what stood out the most and focus on that .....remember its what KC said not anyone else and you cant make it a fact or lie out of what she said.....only the words she said ....that struck you...does that make since....Ive been up all night cant sleep :) and sorry for spelling mistakes..:crazy:

There's a song called "Beautiful Life" by Ace of Case- I don't know how to move things over here, but go to google and put lyrics to the above song by this artist- interesting.

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 09:04 AM
Why would Casey have undressed Caylee before 'desposing' of her??? To try and remove anything that would identify her?

That's what I'm thinking. This story just gets creepier and creepier. All doubts I may have had about whether this was an accident or not just went out the window for good.

It's unreal how cold this woman is! :furious:

Shar824
11-19-2008, 09:06 AM
CA has only admitted to removing the pants that belonged to KC from the car. Could it be possible that she also removed some of Caylee's clothes at the same time, threw them in the washer along with the slacks of KC's.....and that's why she's saying "there's none of Caylee's clothes missing". I wouldn't put it passed her at all.

Not so sure I'm buying that Caylee sunk to the bottom of the pool. If she had already been dead for a couple of days, I believe she would have floated if put in the pool due to the gases that would be present in a body. If she did float, it wouldn't have been that hard for her to use a shovel to pull the body over close to the edge where she could then get her out. Maybe she wanted to check to see if she was going to have to weight the bag (if that's what she disposed of her in) down to keep it from floating back to the top of the water.

lisalei321
11-19-2008, 09:07 AM
I'm not a CSI follower (but Law and Order is whole nother story :)) any CSI fans willing to take a shot at the "script" she would have written for the show? She talked about a script right? Maybe she actually wrote one?

Ames
11-19-2008, 09:13 AM
Holy Moly, so this would mean that the clothes and Caylee were in two different locations! I know I am stating the obvious, but this is kind of an important fact to me. I wonder why anyone would have put her clothes in one location and Caylee in another.

I think for two reasons, because of evidence on the clothes...and the possibility that it would make the body of little Caylee harder to identify, in KC's screwed up mind. Guess she never thought about the body's DNA while she was undressing her.

Karen Anne RN
11-19-2008, 09:15 AM
Yea. she thought she was being a smart cookie by taking the clothes off and rid of them and then throw Caylee in the water thinking the gators would get her or the body would be so decomposed and they'd never find remains, just not knowing if gators only went after live bodies or not.
You know what ? I think that if she is in a body of water, someone put her there for Casey. Because how could she put Caylee in the water ? She can't put her in the water 4 feet from the shoreline; someone might find her. She can't swim her out to the middle. She has no boat. She can't toss her off a bridge, someone might drive by.
I also doubt she buried her. She weighs less than me, and I wasn't strong enough to dig holes for my rosebushes; the ground was too hard to dig a hole that deep. I think she had help.

magnolia
11-19-2008, 09:15 AM
*Snipped*

Once Caylee's body is in the pool and sunk to the bottom, however, Casey, the shovel, the ladder, and the depth of the pool all work against a theory of using a shovel to scoop out Caylee. There is no way Casey would be capable (adrenalin or no) of reaching the body with the shovel at an angle that would make it possible. The drag of the water on the shovel, as someone pointed out, would be like that of an oar in water. She would have to drag toward herself if positioned on the ladder, then maneuver in such a way that she could leverage the shovel against the drag to pull up a 30 lb dead weight. The incredible force needed to do this nearly eliminates this theory as a likely possibility.

If Casey actually got into the pool with Caylee, it makes no sense that she would use a shovel to scoop up Caylee. Once in the water with Caylee and a shovel, it would require Casey lifting the shovel, fighting the drag of the water with the dead weight, up and over her head. The force needed for this again makes it an unlikely theory.

*Snipped*



I do know a surge of adrenalin makes one capable of doing things they normally can't do.

Been there..done that.... when my son, as a toddler, put my car in gear and proceeded to roll down a hill. I caught up with the car, opened the door, and put my foot on the brake. People still shake their heads in amazement how I was able to open the door of a moving vehicle, jump in, and stop the car. In my mind at the time, I had no choice. I didn't hesitate as it was something I had to do.

OP's of the SP case have often stated it would be impossible for one man to lift a pregnant Laci,probably stiff from rigor mortis, onto the back of a pick-up. Scott had no choice. He had a dead body on his hands.

Still, I agree with you. The theory that Casey used the shovel to fish Caylee out of the pool is unlikely.

eg@gm
11-19-2008, 09:22 AM
(You know what ? I don't buy this about the blouse and skirt. I cannot tell you what I wore 31 days ago. Can any of you remember what your child wore 31 days ago ?)

I don't think I would remember what my child wore a month ago, no. But, if it were the last time I ever saw him, I would probably remember what he was wearing, what he had for breakfast, the way his hair looked, and his facial expression before he walked out of the door.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 09:25 AM
You know what ? I think that if she is in a body of water, someone put her there for Casey. Because how could she put Caylee in the water ? She can't put her in the water 4 feet from the shoreline; someone might find her. She can't swim her out to the middle. She has no boat. She can't toss her off a bridge, someone might drive by.
I also doubt she buried her. She weighs less than me, and I wasn't strong enough to dig holes for my rosebushes; the ground was too hard to dig a hole that deep. I think she had help.
Is the ground in Florida perhaps easier to dig because of the sand and conditions there than in Tenn? Plus the removal of the bamboo on a regular basis would keep the backyard more "tilled" and less compact in areas.

doogiesgirl
11-19-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm not sure why KC put Caylee's body in the pool but something tells me she is relishing the thought of her mother swimming in that pool knowing that some of Caylee's remains are in that water. I think she was telling the truth when she called herself a spiteful b***h. I think she hates CA passionately. JMO

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 09:32 AM
I don't think I would remember what my child wore a month ago, no. But, if it were the last time I ever saw him, I would probably remember what he was wearing, what he had for breakfast, the way his hair looked, and his facial expression before he walked out of the door.If you didn't know for at least a month as he contends...it would be difficult to recall such detail, wouldn't it? Maybe not.

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 09:32 AM
I don't think I would remember what my child wore a month ago, no. But, if it were the last time I ever saw him, I would probably remember what he was wearing, what he had for breakfast, the way his hair looked, and his facial expression before he walked out of the door.

I'm not sure what my children were wearing when they went out the door this morning. I might remember some details if it was the last time I ever saw them, but maybe not.

Okay. I just made myself ill thinking about my kids being missing. :eek:

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 09:36 AM
I'm not a CSI follower (but Law and Order is whole nother story :)) any CSI fans willing to take a shot at the "script" she would have written for the show? She talked about a script right? Maybe she actually wrote one?She did everything on her computer and the forensic expert would have found it, imo. Her having to write on paper with a pen right now is difficult at best. (Did you see the letter she wrote to the Sheriff?) This girl isn't a writer.

BondJamesBond
11-19-2008, 09:39 AM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


Consider that Casey began the process of digging a hole in the backyard with intent to bury the body, but, after some effort the bagged body was placed in the shallow hole, and perhaps Casey began the process of covering it with loose dirt. At this point Casey observed the hole wasn't deep enough and aborted this burial location in favor of a disposal elsewhere, and returned the shovel. The bagged body was placed in the trunk and carried with it some loose dirt.
Consider that Caylee's clothes weren't removed until after the first day of death had elapsed in hopes that if/when discovered the remains would be unidentifiable otherwise, in which case they may have already contained some early decomp fluid
Consider the removed clothes were bagged and thrown in the trunk of the Pontiac with the intent to dispose of them.
Consider the disposal of the body became an unanticipated and overwhelming problem for Casey, and disposing of the bag of clothes faded in comparison to this problem.
Consider the flurry of calls 6/16PM was to support a planned "unable to find ZFG", and, "I tried to reach you" claim later, and the disappearance of Casey from the G&C's presence was necessitated by the presence of the body in the trunk or backyard which required dealing with prior to coming forward. This mode of delaying the inevitable confrontation with G&C became easier over time, even after the body had been disposed - ultimately stretching to 31 days and Cindy's forcing the issue.
Consider, following the disposal of the body, the bag of clothing remained in the trunk until 6/27 when Casey investigates the source of the smell, discovers the bag and tosses it, subsequently commenting to Amy about getting rid of the source of the smell.
Consider there may have been several bags of trash in the trunk of the Pontiac as at least one was discovered and submitted into evidence when the car was recovered on 7/15.
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
Consider Casey did not intend to lose the Pontiac as she was taking actions to secure gas (see "the chase" post in 6/29-only ping thread, and Amy's statements about securing gas can 6/30 morning).

Oakley
11-19-2008, 09:48 AM
The two "dead" squerrils who crawled inside the car. Seriously, I just want so badly for this child to be alive, just some wishful thinking. I forgot about the car.

KC claimed the squirrels climbed under the hood so that wouldn't explain a basketball sized stain, strong smell of decomposition, and a hair from Caylee showing a death ring all from the trunk of the car. Wish it could be otherwise but we can't ignore the facts.

countzero
11-19-2008, 09:51 AM
Sheeze, took me a while to soak all these theories in my wee brain.

The only problem I see with many of the theories everyone has thought about is this:

KC makes this statement weeks after Caylee disappears. For 31+ days there are alleged Caylee's clothing just sitting somewhere. Due to the fact that for these 31+ days, no one but KC knows Caylee is missing.

Who, under these circumstances, would even take notice of some child's clothing just laying on the ground, or placed in a trash can? Everyday, somewhere in the USofA, you can find a kids shoe, shirt, pants, socks, backpack or whatever just laying on the road, side of the road, sidewalk or trashcan and parking lots and does anyone think twice about it. Nope. We all just take a glance at it and it is forgotten.

So, this statement KC makes is important. Just attempting to decipher it is the challenge.

Oakley
11-19-2008, 09:52 AM
Ok I have been up all nite and so this may be really off the wall. But I was thinking about this tonight and about the report that KC liked watching CSI shows. One thing that has always struck me about the CSI shows is that when they interview, the person being interviewed never says things right out plain- even if they are innocent. They kinda hint and talk around what really happened.

The report of KC saying that they haven't even found her clothes reminded me of something else that KC allegedly said earlier. That if they had listened to her they would have found Caylee. We thought she meant that they should have listened to her about ZFG, but we knew that was a dead end.

What if KC arranged some macabre treasure hunt. She may have arranged her clues to implicate someone else, so she cannot just say this is where Caylee is. If you think of it like a CSI episode, she may have planned to lead LE indirectly to the clues, leading up to an ah ha moment where Caylee is found and a suspect (not her) is found. Not realizing that people don't think like her, and don't understand her clues. And thus her seeming to be disgusted with LE for not finding the clues and Caylee. Because it is plain in her mind.

ZFG/Zanny/nanny/kidnapping was nothing more than the "vessel" to get all of the clues in. She talked about Blanchard Park- so maybe the cross that was found was one clue she arranged. I heard it was found on a jogging path, so the clues are probably not well hidden. Just maybe not easily recognized.

She talked about Universal, but I think that is a dead end because it wasn't related to Caylee. I think LE trued to use that to break her and make her realize that her story wasn"t believeable. I don't think she really intended that as a clue. She allegedly warned her parents against Jesse.... could another clue be near Jesse??? What else has she said that may have been hints toward where a clue might be?

We may have to look at what she has said, not at face value but more like it might have been presented in a TV show. After all, that may have been her model for this.

This makes a lot of sense. Also the missing Blackjack ...

passionflower
11-19-2008, 09:55 AM
I really like what you are thinking....there is to many weird things in this case......maybe a thread on things that KC said that striked us odd...nothing that GA or CA or anyone else......only KC......

KC asked her mom to give her one more day? why? did she not finish her plan?
why did she wear the clothes she stole
why did she cash those checks at the bank in clear site of the cameras?
why the cross necklace
why the statements:
if they only had listen to me they would have found Caylee
they cant even find her clothes-meaning the clothes are in plain site
she is close to home
she had a script to follow-meaning KC made a plan?
they wont break me-meaning tell them where Caylee is
why the warning against Jess-he was her friend
I have not seen my daughter in 31 days-not she was lost or stolen-physicaly seen with her eyes
KC tatoo
Deleating all of her photos

anyone else? want to brain storm on what struck out the most? in your mind I know we have talked about all of them and differnt therios...maybe we can see what stood out the most and focus on that .....remember its what KC said not anyone else and you cant make it a fact or lie out of what she said.....only the words she said ....that struck you...does that make since....Ive been up all night cant sleep :) and sorry for spelling mistakes..:crazy:

yes why 1 more day, she asked mother for?????
di·a·bol·i·cal (d-bl-kl) also di·a·bol·ic (-k)
adj.
1. Of, concerning, or characteristic of the devil; satanic.
2. Appropriate to a devil, especially in degree of wickedness or cruelty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 10:00 AM
yes why 1 more day, she asked mother for?????
di·a·bol·i·cal (d-bl-kl) also di·a·bol·ic (-k)
adj.
1. Of, concerning, or characteristic of the devil; satanic.
2. Appropriate to a devil, especially in degree of wickedness or cruelty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The one more day request sounds more to me like she was going to take off to California to flee. She had been working a serviceman out there to take her in, imo. If she were allowed another day...we would also be searching for the perp right now.

anastacia129
11-19-2008, 10:12 AM
How about the latest "several people have borrowed my car in the past" comment when the forensics on the car came back? Now her friends are driving around with bodies in her trunk??? kc makes me :furious:

http://www.local6.com/news/18013764/detail.html

maybe the person who borrowed the car did something with the clothes.

to me the clothes comment indicates kc was reasoning that since her clothes haven't been found, she was still alive and wearing them, which means since the truth is opposite of what kc says, that Caylee was disposed of without any clothes. JMO

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 10:14 AM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


Consider that Casey began the process of digging a hole in the backyard with intent to bury the body, but, after some effort the bagged body was placed in the shallow hole, and perhaps Casey began the process of covering it with loose dirt. At this point Casey observed the hole wasn't deep enough and aborted this burial location in favor of a disposal elsewhere, and returned the shovel. The bagged body was placed in the trunk and carried with it some loose dirt.
Consider that Caylee's clothes weren't removed until after the first day of death had elapsed in hopes that if/when discovered the remains would be unidentifiable otherwise, in which case they may have already contained some early decomp fluid
Consider the removed clothes were bagged and thrown in the trunk of the Pontiac with the intent to dispose of them.
Consider the disposal of the body became an unanticipated and overwhelming problem for Casey, and disposing of the bag of clothes faded in comparison to this problem.
Consider, following the disposal of the body, the bag of clothing remained in the trunk until 6/27 when Casey investigates the source of the smell, discovers the bag and tosses it, subsequently commenting to Amy about getting rid of the source of the smell.
Consider there may have been several bags of trash in the trunk of the Pontiac as at least one was discovered and submitted into evidence when the car was recovered on 7/15.
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
Consider Casey did not intend to lose the Pontiac as she was taking actions to secure gas (see "the chase" post in 6/29-only ping thread, and Amy's statements about securing gas can 6/30 morning).


1) I feel KC wanted one more day- so she could run
2) I feel she is giving no clues at all- I think she made up lies as she went along- buying time - thinking they would believe her and she still may get a chance to run-Never expected to be arrested so quickly- When she couldn't run- she decided to stick with her story- not knowing of another one at the time - her story has changed since she has had time to reconsider what she had said-however, not to any good
3) I do feel she intended to put gas in the car, so as to look like a kidnapping, or car jacking. Running out of gas was too obvious.
4) I feel KC left AH's number in plain sight in the car to involve AH. if the car was found before she returned, to try and cover up what she stole from AH
5) I feel she told her parents not to trust JG, for the same reason- she also
stole from him-allegedly. Make the two of them look bad and trying to pin something on her- they know her better than her parents did.

Just my opinions, and mine alone!
3)

Coley
11-19-2008, 10:21 AM
How about the latest "several people have borrowed my car in the past" comment when the forensics on the car came back? Now her friends are driving around with bodies in her trunk??? kc makes me :furious:

http://www.local6.com/news/18013764/detail.html

maybe the person who borrowed the car did something with the clothes.

to me the clothes comment indicates kc was reasoning that since her clothes haven't been found, she was still alive and wearing them, which means since the truth is opposite of what kc says, that Caylee was disposed of without any clothes. JMO

IMO, KC is trying to say this to get out of this situation so she can live the free life she so longed for. KC did away with Caylee & her clothes.

Coley
11-19-2008, 10:23 AM
The one more day request sounds more to me like she was going to take off to California to flee. She had been working a serviceman out there to take her in, imo. If she were allowed another day...we would also be searching for the perp right now.

But 1 more day....Wasn't this during the 911 calls? If so, CA actually stepped up and thought about Caylee before KC and was making sure she didn't have 1 more day to do a damn thing.

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 10:26 AM
Sheeze, took me a while to soak all these theories in my wee brain.

The only problem I see with many of the theories everyone has thought about is this:

KC makes this statement weeks after Caylee disappears. For 31+ days there are alleged Caylee's clothing just sitting somewhere. Due to the fact that for these 31+ days, no one but KC knows Caylee is missing.

Who, under these circumstances, would even take notice of some child's clothing just laying on the ground, or placed in a trash can? Everyday, somewhere in the USofA, you can find a kids shoe, shirt, pants, socks, backpack or whatever just laying on the road, side of the road, sidewalk or trashcan and parking lots and does anyone think twice about it. Nope. We all just take a glance at it and it is forgotten.

So, this statement KC makes is important. Just attempting to decipher it is the challenge.

Great Point- So! What if KC the "They" KC is talking about is not LE or the searchers? How about mom and dad? RM did mention somewhere that KC was washing some clothes one day.
So, what if she washed Kaylee's clothes and took them back to the house and left them there? After GA gave a description of the clothes- did LE find them at the house or did CA find them?
It appears this was all about hurting her parents or at the least CA. Maybe, she didn't want Kaylee to have anything bought by the Grdma.
Maybe, CA told her during the fight to get out and don't take anything she paid for. H-Hmmmm! Then KC may have brought them back as a another slap in the face.

klaramaria
11-19-2008, 10:29 AM
OMG! "they didn't even find the clothes yet"? What is this scum bag thinking this is; a scavenger hunt???? CA should of aborted her

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 10:34 AM
Sheeze, took me a while to soak all these theories in my wee brain.

The only problem I see with many of the theories everyone has thought about is this:

KC makes this statement weeks after Caylee disappears. For 31+ days there are alleged Caylee's clothing just sitting somewhere. Due to the fact that for these 31+ days, no one but KC knows Caylee is missing.

Who, under these circumstances, would even take notice of some child's clothing just laying on the ground, or placed in a trash can? Everyday, somewhere in the USofA, you can find a kids shoe, shirt, pants, socks, backpack or whatever just laying on the road, side of the road, sidewalk or trashcan and parking lots and does anyone think twice about it. Nope. We all just take a glance at it and it is forgotten.

So, this statement KC makes is important. Just attempting to decipher it is the challenge.

Great Point- So! What if KC the "They" KC is talking about is not LE or the searchers? How about mom and dad? RM did mention somewhere that KC was washing some clothes one day.
So, what if she washed Kaylee's clothes and took them back to the house and left them there? After GA gave a description of the clothes- did LE find them at the house or did CA find them?
It appears this was all about hurting her parents or at the least CA. Maybe, she didn't want Kaylee to have anything bought by the Grdma.
Maybe, CA told her during the fight to get out and don't take anything she paid for. H-Hmmmm! Then KC may have brought them back as a another slap in the face.

anastacia129
11-19-2008, 10:34 AM
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
[/LIST]

snipped

Didn't they say there were animal remains in the hole? It never sat well with me that garbage bags would contain or be hiding animal remains. Were ocso csi people called to the scene? Are they testing the contents? I thought they immediatly passed it off as an animal?

tangerinemoon
11-19-2008, 10:36 AM
"Gimme one more day" ....to get my story straight.

natsound
11-19-2008, 10:38 AM
I haven't read through all of these posts.. but does it bother ANYONE that Padilla is only coming out with this bombshell NOW??? I'm on the fence about Padilla, but it sure does seem he releases his "information" when it best suits him.

concentric
11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
You know, it seems to me that this is as good as a confession.

http://www.wesh.com/news/18009037/detail.html (tangerinemoon posted)

IMO
Her statement "presupposes" that the clothes are hidden somewhere.
The truth is embedded in what she said.

Detectives say she is "playing a game."

Could this mean that during the 31 days, as I've mentioned before (many times) that she hid evidence, such as the clothing, in different locations to throw the investigation off track? In essence, playing a game of: hide and seek?

Clock's Tickin
11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
I wonder if KC actually said "the clothes she was wearing" or just "her clothes". She did supposedly leave the house with the intention of being gone a while and IIRC no packed clothing was recovered from the car. Could she be talking about the monkey backpack of clothes? Or trip clothes? I just can't see KC stripping Caylee postmortem. IMO, once the baby had expired-she was no longer Caylee in KCs eyes.

There may be something to the CSI connection. KC certainly loves being part of the drama. She might even confess if interviewed in the CSI "confession room" with the right dramatic interrogation by someone with the right look and the right script. I caught the tail end of a rerun flipping channels last night and it looked right up KCs alley. I could see it.

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 10:46 AM
I haven't read through all of these posts.. but does it bother ANYONE that Padilla is only coming out with this bombshell NOW??? I'm on the fence about Padilla, but it sure does seem he releases his "information" when it best suits him.

I thought about this as well. Last night on NG Padilla did step lightly saying that he wasn't sure of KC's exact words. However the reports I've seen this morning are attributing the statement to someone they are calling a "lead investigator" in the case. If someone inside this case is claiming they heard this, then it is a whole new ballgame.

If it is coming only from LP's fuzzy memory then it may not hold as much water as we think it does.

I'm interested to know exactly who heard her say this, and are they 100% certain it is what she said.

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 10:48 AM
"Gimme one more day" ....to get my story straight.

To get my story straight and get out of town.

concentric
11-19-2008, 10:55 AM
http://www.wesh.com/news/18009037/detail.html

I can't get the photo in this news story out of my mind.

Caylee is smiling sweetly in front of an admiring person or persons and Casey is overexaggeratedly grinning from ear to ear, this directed toward Caylee. To me it looks like Casey is mocking Caylee, because Casey is extremely jealous that the most attention is paid to Caylee and not her.

weasel
11-19-2008, 11:00 AM
<<Maybe that was her thinking, that they would change her clothes into somthing else, and change her appearance.>>

Just speculating here, but I think that's exactly Casey's MO. Say her plan was (and it looks that way) to accuse kidnappers (Zanni) of abducting Caylee. Casey plants clothes in an obvious place so that when the clothes are found, she can say "see, they changed her clothes and altered her appearance".

klaramaria
11-19-2008, 11:02 AM
http://www.wesh.com/news/18009037/detail.html (tangerinemoon posted)

IMO
Her statement "presupposes" that the clothes are hidden somewhere.
The truth is embedded in what she said.

Detectives say she is "playing a game."

Could this mean that during the 31 days, as I've mentioned before (many times) that she hid evidence, such as the clothing, in different locations to throw the investigation off track? In essence, playing a game of: hide and seek?

More like scavenger hunt!

ThoughtFox
11-19-2008, 11:04 AM
This is as far as I read. The implication of what she has done just maked me so sad. From what I am understanding this to mean, is that casey took off caylees cloths and put them somewhere else. Now that poor little baby is naked and dumped somewhere, all alone naked. I can hope casey would have wrapped her in a blanket. To kill a child is horrible, but to not care about the "remains" after death is just plain evil. I cant stand the thought of that poor baby purposefully being undressed and laid naked someone in the cold exposed to animals.

It's truly horrible to think about. Most mothers with a heart couldn't even bear to part with clothes that belonged to their baby, especially if she has passed. I have boxes full of clothes and toys my children have outgrown, and they are all alive, well, and happy right now.

You can't make sense out of it, because evil doesn't follow logic. It's often the absence of logic, which is why crimes are so hard to solve.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by countzero
Sheeze, took me a while to soak all these theories in my wee brain.

The only problem I see with many of the theories everyone has thought about is this:

KC makes this statement weeks after Caylee disappears. For 31+ days there are alleged Caylee's clothing just sitting somewhere. Due to the fact that for these 31+ days, no one but KC knows Caylee is missing.

Who, under these circumstances, would even take notice of some child's clothing just laying on the ground, or placed in a trash can? Everyday, somewhere in the USofA, you can find a kids shoe, shirt, pants, socks, backpack or whatever just laying on the road, side of the road, sidewalk or trashcan and parking lots and does anyone think twice about it. Nope. We all just take a glance at it and it is forgotten.

So, this statement KC makes is important. Just attempting to decipher it is the challenge.It is important. Universal would keeps records on items found, imo. The perp would know this and know that LE could "find" the clothes that way instead of them being dumped somewhere they may be missed.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:06 AM
<<Maybe that was her thinking, that they would change her clothes into somthing else, and change her appearance.>>

Just speculating here, but I think that's exactly Casey's MO. Say her plan was (and it looks that way) to accuse kidnappers (Zanni) of abducting Caylee. Casey plants clothes in an obvious place so that when the clothes are found, she can say "see, they changed her clothes and altered her appearance".Bingo!

concentric
11-19-2008, 11:07 AM
More like scavenger hunt!

I think we posted at the same time, sorry:).

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:08 AM
I thought about this as well. Last night on NG Padilla did step lightly saying that he wasn't sure of KC's exact words. However the reports I've seen this morning are attributing the statement to someone they are calling a "lead investigator" in the case. If someone inside this case is claiming they heard this, then it is a whole new ballgame.

If it is coming only from LP's fuzzy memory then it may not hold as much water as we think it does.

I'm interested to know exactly who heard her say this, and are they 100% certain it is what she said.This statement not only came from the Stacy M. (female security detail), it was confirmed to the reporter by the lead investigator on the case. This is NOT a case of LP making it up or embellishing anything. It was stated in the article.

Bev
11-19-2008, 11:13 AM
How can you be certain that is what she said? Without context the statement makes no sense.

Pink Panther
11-19-2008, 11:14 AM
The statement makes it sound like KC put the clothes in what she considered an "easier" place to find than the place she put the body.

MOO

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 11:14 AM
It is important. Universal would keeps records on items found, imo. The perp would know this and know that LE could "find" the clothes that way instead of them being dumped somewhere they may be missed.

I agree about them keeping records. This past Summer I was at a very small, family-run amusement park (not a major theme park). I left a bag of medical supplies on a bench and didn't realize it until about 3-4 hours later. I went to their security office and they had my bag, but they also had a full report stating when it was found, where it was found, who found it, along with a full description of the bag. I guess my point is that if a place that small has reports, I'd imagine a place like Universal would have similar reports.

Coley
11-19-2008, 11:15 AM
This statement not only came from the Stacy M. (female security detail), it was confirmed to the reporter by the lead investigator on the case. This is NOT a case of LP making it up or embellishing anything. It was stated in the article.

Why do a lot of people think there is always "lies" or "make believe" when someone speaks in this case? Errr...

Motomom649
11-19-2008, 11:15 AM
This comment makes me think it is all a game to her. She's challenging LE IMO. 'They haven't even found her clothes".. also makes me think that they are being overlooked, and in a much easier spot to find then poor little Caylee.

If any of the bones that they have reported that were animal bones, or non related to Caylee, that hole with the stink and trash... how long would it take for testing to come back to determine who those bones (if they were human) belonged to?

Pocono Sleuther
11-19-2008, 11:16 AM
The one more day request sounds more to me like she was going to take off to California to flee. She had been working a serviceman out there to take her in, imo. If she were allowed another day...we would also be searching for the perp right now.

I agree SS. She was planning to flee ala Scott Peterson. Remember how Lee picked up her bag and noticed how organized it was? She was trying to fit in everything she possibly could before she left. She had no intentions of sticking around and dealing with the fallout. That's part of the reason I believe she had a poorly thought out story for a missing Caylee. She never thought she'd have to explain where Caylee was and why Caylee hadn't been with her for so long. She probably figured that if she took off, everyone would just *ass*ume that Caylee was with her.

When her mom showed up at Tony's, however, her perfect plan fell to pieces. :mad:

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 11:18 AM
Why do a lot of people think there is always "lies" or "make believe" when someone speaks in this case? Errr...

Probably because there have been so many lies in this case.

My apprehension was only based on LP's reaction on NG last night. He didn't want to go all the way and say he remembered word-for-word what was said. He also said he couldn't remember the context.

To me it doesn't matter, but any "hole" left open in this case is another one that KC may crawl through...and I'd hate to see that happen.

FifthEssence
11-19-2008, 11:18 AM
The statement makes it sound like KC put the clothes in what she considered an "easier" place to find than the place she put the body.

MOO



ah huh..yeap

Pocono Sleuther
11-19-2008, 11:19 AM
This comment makes me think it is all a game to her. She's challenging LE IMO. 'They haven't even found her clothes".. also makes me think that they are being overlooked, and in a much easier spot to find then poor little Caylee.

If any of the bones that they have reported that were animal bones, or non related to Caylee, that hole with the stink and trash... how long would it take for testing to come back to determine who those bones (if they were human) belonged to?

She's a sociopath. Everything is a game to her. Life is nothing but one long competition. A competition which Casey is determined to win. Even the way she 'took over' Baez is part of her game. She just molds herself into what men want. Then she works her way deep into them for control. I've seen women do this. It's quite interesting. Freaky, but interesting all the same.

Coley
11-19-2008, 11:19 AM
I agree SS. She was planning to flee ala Scott Peterson. Remember how Lee picked up her bag and noticed how organized it was? She was trying to fit in everything she possibly could before she left. She had no intentions of sticking around and dealing with the fallout. That's part of the reason I believe she had a poorly thought out story for a missing Caylee. She never thought she'd have to explain where Caylee was and why Caylee hadn't been with her for so long. She probably figured that if she took off, everyone would just *ass*ume that Caylee was with her.

When her mom showed up at Tony's, however, her perfect plan fell to pieces. :mad:

IIRC, KC was all about organization.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:19 AM
But 1 more day....Wasn't this during the 911 calls? If so, CA actually stepped up and thought about Caylee before KC and was making sure she didn't have 1 more day to do a damn thing.It did come out then yes. Cindy did not call to report Caylee missing. She called out of rage about the car and the credit cards...Caylee missing was an afterthought. She wasn't attempting to beat the perp at anything as far as reporting her missing etc. She was enraged about the $$$$.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Pocono Sleuther
I agree SS. She was planning to flee ala Scott Peterson. Remember how Lee picked up her bag and noticed how organized it was? She was trying to fit in everything she possibly could before she left. She had no intentions of sticking around and dealing with the fallout. That's part of the reason I believe she had a poorly thought out story for a missing Caylee. She never thought she'd have to explain where Caylee was and why Caylee hadn't been with her for so long. She probably figured that if she took off, everyone would just *ass*ume that Caylee was with her.

When her mom showed up at Tony's, however, her perfect plan fell to pieces. The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.

okiedokietoo
11-19-2008, 11:30 AM
The statement makes it sound like KC put the clothes in what she considered an "easier" place to find than the place she put the body.

MOO

GOOD POINT! It would also fit with her kidnap story. If the clothes were found and that area searched for Caylee - she wouldn't be found

FifthEssence
11-19-2008, 11:32 AM
Under the hydragia (sorry spelling!) bush? Didnt Cindy mentioned they replanted one of the bushes in the back yard?



I think it was a CREPE MYRTLE

Pink Panther
11-19-2008, 11:34 AM
The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.
Clint was asked if she was neat/tidy and he responded that she was. He implied that TonyL wouldn't have accepted her staying there if she wasn't.

MOO

FifthEssence
11-19-2008, 11:34 AM
The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.

Agree- she was 'working' the dialogue with the military guy out in Calif.

Pocono Sleuther
11-19-2008, 11:36 AM
IIRC, KC was all about organization.


But wasn't Lee surprised at how everything was put in it's place properly. He even made a comment about it. Or am I missing something. Which is entirely possible this week! :crazy:

Amil
11-19-2008, 11:38 AM
GOOD POINT! It would also fit with her kidnap story. If the clothes were found and that area searched for Caylee - she wouldn't be found

So if the clothes were put somewhere easy to find to distract searchers, would you guess the clothes are at Sawgrass apts? Has there actually been any search there at all? Maybe that is where the clothes are.

Pocono Sleuther
11-19-2008, 11:39 AM
The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.

Good point about Tony. I can't blame him ONE bit for doing that either. God knows what she could have taken. Her story though is just too convoluted and unplanned. It seemed like she was pulling the majority of it out of her arse. Unless she never got past the basics of the kidnapping story. Maybe she expected everyone to just believe her. Though I can't imagine anyone doing that for cryin out loud.

What do you think?

Lanie
11-19-2008, 11:39 AM
The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.

Bolded by me.
Some people just can't help themselves. Whenever I pack, if my husband puts anything in my suitcase, he rearranges what I have 'packed' (in other words, thrown in the bag). Same thing at the grocery store, wherever. He does the whole heavy sigh, eyeroll routine, but he is very organized.
Lanie

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:40 AM
Clint was asked if she was neat/tidy and he responded that she was. He implied that TonyL wouldn't have accepted her staying there if she wasn't.

MOOWhat she did to impress her boyfriend and his friends had nothing to do with the way she normally acted, imo. Her brother would know her true characteristics. Look at the trash in her car if you don't believe him. This is one lazy perp until she is playing a role which requires her to behave differently.

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 11:40 AM
The bag was nice and neat because I believe Tony went through it to see if she was stealing from him. Lee noted it because the perp is basically a haphazard person and it was uncharacteristic of her for it to be so neat.

I believe she was in the stages of setting up an exit, but was caught offguard by CA. She didn't make any attempt at going anywhere and wouldn't until the time suited her. She was in the earliest stages of setting up leaving, but she had the story of Caylee all ready to go, imo.

I wonder if she ever fully unpacked when she was at Tony's?

Did Tony say there were EVER any of Caylee's clothes/toys at his place.... I always wondered if she really even packed anything for Caylee when she left the A home?

If her friends believed Caylee was still living at the A home.... she shouldn't have had Caylee's clothes or belonging.... but she had to take stuff IF she wants her parents to believe Caylee is with her. So where was Caylee's stuff during that month? In the car that stunk of death????

This has always bothered me... relying on the Anthonys to tell us what Casey had or did NOT have with her the last time they saw her.


We know investigators took some of Caylee's belongings into evidence.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:42 AM
I think it was a CREPE MYRTLEHibiscus.

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 11:44 AM
What she did to impress her boyfriend and his friends had nothing to do with the way she normally acted, imo. Her brother would know her true characteristics. Look at the trash in her car if you don't believe him. This is one lazy perp until she is playing a role which requires her to behave differently.

ITA!

Casey was capable of living like a human for a short period of time. It wouldn't take long for her true colors to come out, probably.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 11:45 AM
So if the clothes were put somewhere easy to find to distract searchers, would you guess the clothes are at Sawgrass apts? Has there actually been any search there at all? Maybe that is where the clothes are.I think they were at Universal. :waitasec:

Pink Panther
11-19-2008, 11:45 AM
What she did to impress her boyfriend and his friends had nothing to do with the way she normally acted, imo. Her brother would know her true characteristics. Look at the trash in her car if you don't believe him. This is one lazy perp until she is playing a role which requires her to behave differently.
Yes. I agree. Based on what Clint said, it sounds like she was being neat to appease her boyfriend.

chris1990
11-19-2008, 11:55 AM
I agree SS. She was planning to flee ala Scott Peterson. Remember how Lee picked up her bag and noticed how organized it was? She was trying to fit in everything she possibly could before she left. She had no intentions of sticking around and dealing with the fallout. That's part of the reason I believe she had a poorly thought out story for a missing Caylee. She never thought she'd have to explain where Caylee was and why Caylee hadn't been with her for so long. She probably figured that if she took off, everyone would just *ass*ume that Caylee was with her.

When her mom showed up at Tony's, however, her perfect plan fell to pieces. :mad:

I also think when her car got towed it may have spoiled her plan also.

debs
11-19-2008, 11:57 AM
Sometimes a tidy bag is just a tidy bag. Casey was sponging off Tony. She would make sure none of her stuff was laying around so as to avoid a confrontation which would lead to Tony telling her to get out. The simplest answer. That doesn't mean Tony didn't go through it, but he would do what he could to put things back the way they were so that it wasn't detected that he went through it.

When you look through someone's medicine cabinet, don't YOU make sure to not move things around so no one knows? (don't pretend you haven't done it! I was watching you!!)

I think her bag was tidy in case ANY reason to leave in a hurry arose, including Tony giving her the boot. The Marine was just the next contingency....a just-in-case(y)-man.

shayj
11-19-2008, 12:27 PM
Hi everyone! Just registered, but have been here since the beginning of this case and have spent many many hours with you all! I think that if in fact Caylee's clothes are "really somewhere" They would be in one of the places kc took the LE the night of July 15th / morning of 16th. moo

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 12:35 PM
Hi everyone! Just registered, but have been here since the beginning of this case and have spent many many hours with you all! I think that if in fact Caylee's clothes are "really somewhere" They would be in one of the places kc took the LE the night of July 15th / morning of 16th. moo

Wouldn't that be sick? I wouldn't put it passed KC to pull something like that.

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 12:36 PM
Hi everyone! Just registered, but have been here since the beginning of this case and have spent many many hours with you all! I think that if in fact Caylee's clothes are "really somewhere" They would be in one of the places kc took the LE the night of July 15th / morning of 16th. moo

I forgot to add, welcome to the board. :)

elle1919
11-19-2008, 12:39 PM
I have a question, I am sure it must have been asked before...is there an interview transcript for Annie D, if there is where is it and if there isn't how can she be on the witness list? Doesn't prosecution have to provide the defense with discovery on her? I think that Annie D might have a lot of answers to this whole mystery. Also after re-reading the Sean D interview I got the feeling that he didn't care too much for Tony L....anyone else get that too?

Clock's Tickin
11-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I have a question, I am sure it must have been asked before...is there an interview transcript for Annie D, if there is where is it and if there isn't how can she be on the witness list? Doesn't prosecution have to provide the defense with discovery on her? I think that Annie D might have a lot of answers to this whole mystery. Also after re-reading the Sean D interview I got the feeling that he didn't care too much for Tony L....anyone else get that too?
Just like a good poker player, we believe LE just aren't showing that hand yet. I'm certain there are transcripts-they just haven't been released. I have a feeling Annie has A LOT to add to this case.

tiredofthis
11-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I have a question, I am sure it must have been asked before...is there an interview transcript for Annie D, if there is where is it and if there isn't how can she be on the witness list? Doesn't prosecution have to provide the defense with discovery on her? I think that Annie D might have a lot of answers to this whole mystery. Also after re-reading the Sean D interview I got the feeling that he didn't care too much for Tony L....anyone else get that too?

Isn't that one of the transcripts they haven't released yet?

elle1919
11-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Isn't that one of the transcripts they haven't released yet?

I am dying to read this.....

KTaylorsc
11-19-2008, 01:02 PM
what if KC meant to have the car towed with the decomp smell in it? to let everyone think that she and Caylee had been kidnapped. Maybe she drowned Caylee in the bathtub (no clothes) took her body somewhere and dumped it. Maybe she knew no one found the clothes because the ones GA had described last seeing her in were still in Caylee's room. She would have been able to see that being at home. Had her bag packed to leave town and Cindy caught up with her before she could. Staying at Tony's is the perfect cover for having a bag ready to go.

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 01:02 PM
I am dying to read this.....

You're not the only one. I'm sure there will be plenty of jaws on the floor when Annie D's information comes to light. Probably not a "smoking gun," so to speak, but I'm sure it will be crammed with a ton of surprising information.

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 01:07 PM
what if KC meant to have the car towed with the decomp smell in it? to let everyone think that she and Caylee had been kidnapped. Maybe she drowned Caylee in the bathtub (no clothes) took her body somewhere and dumped it. Maybe she knew no one found the clothes because the ones GA had described last seeing her in were still in Caylee's room. She would have been able to see that being at home. Had her bag packed to leave town and Cindy caught up with her before she could. Staying at Tony's is the perfect cover for having a bag ready to go.

It's interesting to read the theories on KC prepping to flee somewhere, but why wait so long? She had to know that people were starting to get suspicious of where Caylee was. If CA watched Caylee as much as we believe, then KC had to know that she would be coming around asking to see Caylee. (My mom needs to have her granddaughter fix at least twice a week!).

If KC wanted to get out of town she should've done it earlier. Sometimes she seems so smart, and other times very dumb.

GetSmart
11-19-2008, 01:11 PM
Forgive me for this post.. if someone else has already stated this..
Could it be possible she was thinking about the condition of the body and clothes would be what was left behind. ..I am sorry for saying that out loud.

KTaylorsc
11-19-2008, 01:12 PM
It's interesting to read the theories on KC prepping to flee somewhere, but why wait so long? She had to know that people were starting to get suspicious of where Caylee was. If CA watched Caylee as much as we believe, then KC had to know that she would be coming around asking to see Caylee. (My mom needs to have her granddaughter fix at least twice a week!).

If KC wanted to get out of town she should've done it earlier. Sometimes she seems so smart, and other times very dumb.

*LOL* She had to steal enough money to travel? That's the only thing I can think.

Lanie
11-19-2008, 01:21 PM
It's interesting to read the theories on KC prepping to flee somewhere, but why wait so long? She had to know that people were starting to get suspicious of where Caylee was. If CA watched Caylee as much as we believe, then KC had to know that she would be coming around asking to see Caylee. (My mom needs to have her granddaughter fix at least twice a week!).

If KC wanted to get out of town she should've done it earlier. Sometimes she seems so smart, and other times very dumb.

I personally don't think KC was prepping to leave. From what has come out on this case, she has spent a lot of time telling some lame stories and getting away with it. I really think she thought she could put Cindy off indefinitely. I know how that sounds, but then again, this is the girl who took LE all the way to Universal Studios, through security and down a hallway before she finally admitted she really didn't have an office there, and didn't work there at all. When LE said, 'Let's go to your office.' most people would have had the sense to realize the jig was up and dropped the lie then an there.
I could be completely wrong here, but IMO, KC isn't smart at all. What I have seen is a spoiled rotten brat who has gotten away with so much for so long, she is having difficulty comprehending this behavior may work with mom and dad, but it won't fly in the real world.
Lanie

MsMacGyver
11-19-2008, 01:34 PM
Hi everyone! Just registered, but have been here since the beginning of this case and have spent many many hours with you all! I think that if in fact Caylee's clothes are "really somewhere" They would be in one of the places kc took the LE the night of July 15th / morning of 16th. moo

Welcome Shayj..I was reading KC's interview last nite thinking the same thing. The question that has always bothered me about this case is the fact that KC left thee car at amscot in plain site. Why didn't she try to get rid of it somehow. There's so many things she could have done differently to hide evidence but it seem's her pattern has been to leave things to be found. Her story has so many holes in it so why not come up with a story that would have sounded more believable. If this girl is so smart and so interested in CSI and so good with computers why didn't she make any attempt to hide evidence. She had 31 days to come up with something better than what she had. In LA's interview he mentioned on the nite of July 15th when he was speaking to KC in her bedroom that KC had a lightbulb moment that she realized she would have to come up with a story to tell LE, almost like she hadn't thought of the possibility that she would get caught. Even when she promised JB some money for her legal defense KC told him she would give him additional monies when she got out of this..not when she was found innocent. I know I'm rambling but it bugs the poop out of me that she made so many mistakes with her lies I just can't see her putting alot of thought into where she hid Caylee or her clothes. I keep wondering why searches are braving all these locations deep into the areas searched and instead take a good look at what KC is saying and search in more open waters so to speak kind of like what LP is doing..:crazy:

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 01:37 PM
I personally don't think KC was prepping to leave. From what has come out on this case, she has spent a lot of time telling some lame stories and getting away with it. I really think she thought she could put Cindy off indefinitely. I know how that sounds, but then again, this is the girl who took LE all the way to Universal Studios, through security and down a hallway before she finally admitted she really didn't have an office there, and didn't work there at all. When LE said, 'Let's go to your office.' most people would have had the sense to realize the jig was up and dropped the lie then an there.
I could be completely wrong here, but IMO, KC isn't smart at all. What I have seen is a spoiled rotten brat who has gotten away with so much for so long, she is having difficulty comprehending this behavior may work with mom and dad, but it won't fly in the real world.
Lanie

ITA!

And now you have LE stymied because this idiot's MOTHER is picking up her lies & for all intents & purposes letting Casey know that her lies ARE believable & that everything will be alright in the end.

debs
11-19-2008, 01:40 PM
what if KC meant to have the car towed with the decomp smell in it? to let everyone think that she and Caylee had been kidnapped. Maybe she drowned Caylee in the bathtub (no clothes) took her body somewhere and dumped it. Maybe she knew no one found the clothes because the ones GA had described last seeing her in were still in Caylee's room. She would have been able to see that being at home. Had her bag packed to leave town and Cindy caught up with her before she could. Staying at Tony's is the perfect cover for having a bag ready to go.

Color me jaded, but more than just the smell, I'm guessing that Casey abandoned the car to make herself more dependent upon Tony, another step in the "biological bonding" ritual of dating. If Tony "rescues" Casey, she feels he really loves her, and she can believe that in that rescuing, he really wants her.

Clinger 101. It's an industry term.

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 01:45 PM
So much for Cindy's story (To Greta, I believe) that NOTHING of Caylee's was missing.

In an attempt to acheive balance: Would Cindy have meant that Caylee went missing naked when she said nothing was missing? I don't think so, I think her statement implies that nothing in addition to Caylee and her outfit were missing.

I don't think this statment is anything relevent. Casey DID describe caylee's last clothing attire when she went "missing". I think all she was implying is "how can they think she's dead if they haven't even found her clothes". It's so unimportant and doesn't mean she knows the clothing and caylee are in 2 different places.

It's a possibility. I haven't read yet that it's been confirmed.....apparently the female bh is the one who heard this, right? I'd like to hear her statement. And I'd like to know if anyone can back it up.

I remember the diver saying that on NG. I did a little research after hearing say that, as it was interesting and new to me. Here's a little of what I found.

From: http://alligatorfur.com/edu/pete.htm

Alligators have a cartilaginous flap of tissue at the back of the tongue that perfectly fits the inside shape of the throat. It fits so well that the alligator can open its mouth to catch and crush food underwater without letting water into its throat or lungs, but to swallow the food the alligator has to raise its head out of the water to let the food slide past the throat valve to get into the esophagus leading to its stomach. The valve flap has another use. It helps the alligator bellow by regulating the volume of air being expelled by the alligator when it exhales as it roars.

I never could understand what that diver was talking about. Most alligators don't attack living creatures in the water because they prefer their meat decomped a little.

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 01:48 PM
Welcome Shayj..I was reading KC's interview last nite thinking the same thing. The question that has always bothered me about this case is the fact that KC left thee car at amscot in plain site. Why didn't she try to get rid of it somehow. There's so many things she could have done differently to hide evidence but it seem's her pattern has been to leave things to be found. Her story has so many holes in it so why not come up with a story that would have sounded more believable. If this girl is so smart and so interested in CSI and so good with computers why didn't she make any attempt to hide evidence. She had 31 days to come up with something better than what she had. In LA's interview he mentioned on the nite of July 15th when he was speaking to KC in her bedroom that KC had a lightbulb moment that she realized she would have to come up with a story to tell LE, almost like she hadn't thought of the possibility that she would get caught. Even when she promised JB some money for her legal defense KC told him she would give him additional monies when she got out of this..not when she was found innocent. I know I'm rambling but it bugs the poop out of me that she made so many mistakes with her lies I just can't see her putting alot of thought into where she hid Caylee or her clothes. I keep wondering why searches are braving all these locations deep into the areas searched and instead take a good look at what KC is saying and search in more open waters so to speak kind of like what LP is doing..:crazy:

I think she dumped the clothes AND Caylee's body well enough that they wouldn't find anything TOO SOON & she figured that even IF some evidence ever came up, she'd blame it all on Zenaida. Poor Casey would be the grieving mother.... good for free drinks, I'm sure.

Without Caylee, she'd have plenty of time to hang out at the clubs & they'd all live happily ever after.

Mendara
11-19-2008, 01:50 PM
I personally don't think KC was prepping to leave. From what has come out on this case, she has spent a lot of time telling some lame stories and getting away with it. I really think she thought she could put Cindy off indefinitely. I know how that sounds, but then again, this is the girl who took LE all the way to Universal Studios, through security and down a hallway before she finally admitted she really didn't have an office there, and didn't work there at all. When LE said, 'Let's go to your office.' most people would have had the sense to realize the jig was up and dropped the lie then an there.
I could be completely wrong here, but IMO, KC isn't smart at all. What I have seen is a spoiled rotten brat who has gotten away with so much for so long, she is having difficulty comprehending this behavior may work with mom and dad, but it won't fly in the real world.
Lanie

Lanie - I totally agree with you. KC wasn't going anywhere. She and her mother had a falling out and her mother seemed to leave her alone, she planned on keeping the lame nanny stories going for a while until she needed a new one. GA said in his interview that KC was a liar and that she took things to the very edge. She took her lies as far as she could, perfect example is the one you described above, she continued to lie to LE until she couldn't, but she didn't turn to the truth, she only added more lies. It has worked her entire life.

Just look at her now, she is sitting in jail, her baby is still out there somewhere and she has her parents in her back pocket protecting her, she will never tell the truth about what happened. She will take this to her grave. There are people out there who still believe she is innocent as long as she has that she still has the power. I strongly feel if her family turned against her, maybe to get their attention back, she may change her story and reveal Caylee.

I feel she got rid of the body in a well thought out plan from one of her CSI shows and I don't believe she did it alone. Never have and never will.

sharpar
11-19-2008, 01:51 PM
You all are trying to apply logic to her reasoning - but she is disordered and logic doesnt apply. There are huge gaps in her thinking which is why she says and does really dumb things - she is not a planner - she lives in the moment .
You will make yourselves crazy, doubting and exhausted trying to figure out what it true, what is a lie ,what can be taken at face value , what did one phrase actually mean - its what these wingnuts do - every single one of them -
Begin with the facts - stick with them and believe that the facts will tell the story The wingnuts are a total waste of time . JMO

Lanie
11-19-2008, 02:06 PM
You all are trying to apply logic to her reasoning - but she is disordered and logic doesnt apply. There are huge gaps in her thinking which is why she says and does really dumb things - she is not a planner - she lives in the moment .
You will make yourselves crazy, doubting and exhausted trying to figure out what it true, what is a lie ,what can be taken at face value , what did one phrase actually mean - its what these wingnuts do - every single one of them -
Begin with the facts - stick with them and believe that the facts will tell the story The wingnuts are a total waste of time . JMO

LOL, I so agree with you. I don't think she was planning to skip, in Caseyworld, she would have no need to. I don't think she had an elaborate plan to hide the body, she lives in Florida. I don't live there, but my family does, I have been there several times, and it isn't just sunny beaches. There are lots of 'forest' areas, 'jungley' areas (yes, I just made that word up) swampy areas, etc., and we are talking about the body of a small child, almost but not quite 3 years old. IMO, you would have more luck finding remains of a full grown adult Chihauha than that of a toddler. Also IMO, the only reason that baby's body wasn't still in the trunk when the car was picked up at the tow yard is because the smell got too bad for Casey, and she disposed of it. Also, IMO, I think the only PLAN Casey had was to keep lying to everyone about where Caylee was until they dropped the subject and forgot all about her, cause that's how things work in Caseyworld.
Lanie

natsound
11-19-2008, 02:12 PM
This statement not only came from the Stacy M. (female security detail), it was confirmed to the reporter by the lead investigator on the case. This is NOT a case of LP making it up or embellishing anything. It was stated in the article.

Ugh.. I'm confused.. is there a Stacy AND a Tracy, and both heard this statement? :waitasec:

Mendara
11-19-2008, 02:14 PM
Also, IMO, I think the only PLAN Casey had was to keep lying to everyone about where Caylee was until they dropped the subject and forgot all about her, cause that's how things work in Caseyworld.
Lanie

Yup. She is such a looney and the lack of love she had for that child and contempt was so much so that she figured people would just drop the subject and accept that Caylee is living 90% of the time with the nanny. I don't care how the pictures look or what friends say about her loving her daughter. IMO she did not love her, she liked to show her off and be the poor young mother for attention, but love no. those 31 days could have been 81 - but she messed up leaving the car to be towed, she never expected cindy to be called. I bet she was going to go get the car, but hanging out with her bf was more important and it had been 31 days and she was getting comfortable.

natsound
11-19-2008, 02:16 PM
Why do a lot of people think there is always "lies" or "make believe" when someone speaks in this case? Errr...

A healthy dose of skepticism is important in this whole ordeal. Consider Padilla.. he enters the picture convinced that KC is innocent.. then does a complete 180. Now he's dropping bombs when he pleases. As I stated earlier, I'm on the fence about him, but ya gotta take him with a grain of salt. One of the best reporters on this story, Kathy from WFTV, obviously thinks he's an empty (cowboy) suit.

mysteriew
11-19-2008, 02:19 PM
I really like what you are thinking....there is to many weird things in this case......maybe a thread on things that KC said that striked us odd...nothing that GA or CA or anyone else......only KC......

KC asked her mom to give her one more day? why? did she not finish her plan?
why did she wear the clothes she stole
why did she cash those checks at the bank in clear site of the cameras?
why the cross necklace
why the statements:
if they only had listen to me they would have found Caylee
they cant even find her clothes-meaning the clothes are in plain site
she is close to home
she had a script to follow-meaning KC made a plan?
they wont break me-meaning tell them where Caylee is
why the warning against Jess-he was her friend
I have not seen my daughter in 31 days-not she was lost or stolen-physicaly seen with her eyes
KC tatoo
Deleating all of her photos

anyone else? want to brain storm on what struck out the most? in your mind I know we have talked about all of them and differnt therios...maybe we can see what stood out the most and focus on that .....remember its what KC said not anyone else and you cant make it a fact or lie out of what she said.....only the words she said ....that struck you...does that make since....Ive been up all night cant sleep :) and sorry for spelling mistakes..:crazy:

One thing that has always stood out for me was the day she unexpectedly went to Jesse's to take a shower. Now why would she do that? I thought at first that maybe she was dropping some evidence off to implicate Jesse and maybe she was. Or what if she was picking some evidence up? What do most people keep in a bathroom? A comb or hairbrush, with stray hairs. Towels that could made to look like they were used to wrap an unclothed child. Lots of little things that probably wouldn't be missed- but might look like part of the evidence of a crime scene.

When I heard that KC left her purse in her car, that really made me think that she may have planned for it to be stolen like others here have suggested.


Also, one thing that KC may not have been factoring in with her comment about the clothes is that a lot of clothes has been found and turned in to LE. And LE doesn't comment on whether they mean anything or not. So how does KC know that they haven't found the clothes? She wasn't talking to anyone from LE by that time so they wouldn't have told her.

BondJamesBond
11-19-2008, 02:24 PM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


Consider that Casey began the process of digging a hole in the backyard with intent to bury the body, but, after some effort the bagged body was placed in the shallow hole, and perhaps Casey began the process of covering it with loose dirt. At this point Casey observed the hole wasn't deep enough and aborted this burial location in favor of a disposal elsewhere, and returned the shovel. The bagged body was placed in the trunk and carried with it some loose dirt.
Consider that Caylee's clothes weren't removed until after the first day of death (all of 6/17) had elapsed in hopes that if/when discovered the remains would be unidentifiable otherwise, in which case they may have already contained some early decomp fluid
Consider the removed clothes were bagged and thrown in the trunk of the Pontiac with the intent to dispose of them.
Consider the disposal of the body became an unanticipated and overwhelming problem for Casey, and disposing of the bag of clothes faded in comparison to this problem.
Consider the flurry of calls 6/16PM was to support a planned "unable to find ZFG", and, "I tried to reach you" claim later, and the disappearance of Casey from the G&C's presence was necessitated by the presence of the body in the trunk or backyard which required dealing with prior to coming forward. This mode of delaying the inevitable confrontation with G&C became easier over time, even after the body had been disposed - ultimately stretching to 31 days and Cindy's forcing the issue.
Consider, following the disposal of the body, the bag of clothing remained in the trunk until 6/27 when Casey investigates the source of the smell, discovers the bag and tosses it, subsequently commenting to Amy about getting rid of the source of the smell.
Consider there may have been several bags of trash in the trunk of the Pontiac as at least one was discovered and submitted into evidence when the car was recovered on 7/15.
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
Consider Casey did not intend to lose the Pontiac as she was taking actions to secure gas (see "the chase" post in 6/29-only ping thread, and Amy's statements about securing gas can 6/30 morning).


FWIW, see bold regarding Casey's actions that support she didn't want to lose the Pontiac 6/30.

secretagent
11-19-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't think Caylee is better off not found.

Soldiers aren't left on battlefields to rot. Children shouldn't be left that way either.

To say nothing of justice.

Every lost life deserves an accounting.

While it would be nice for Caylee to have a memorial of some sort, no further harm can come to Caylee. If she really si dead, the lack of a "Proper Burial" isnt hurting her.

Janis396
11-19-2008, 02:35 PM
While it would be nice for Caylee to have a memorial of some sort, no further harm can come to Caylee. If she really si dead, the lack of a "Proper Burial" isnt hurting her.

Would you want an innocent child of yours that was murdered to be left out in the elements, never to be found? That would forever haunt me and destroy me if that were my child. Why does Caylee deserve that, just because her family is evil? I think the least we can do for that little girl is to find her and give her a place to rest.

RevCrim
11-19-2008, 02:37 PM
Just food for thought- If Kc didn't borrow the shovel to bury the body, which I don't think she did anyway- what about burying the child's clothes? In a plastic sealed bag.
Didn't need a big hole, and under some bamboo would be a good hiding place.
Would the cadaver dogs have sensed something sealed in an airtight bag?

secretagent
11-19-2008, 02:40 PM
Actually, that wasn't an alligator. It was a crocodile, so I don't think it's possible to determine anything about alligator feeding habits based on that.

And frozen fresh meat is a lot different than decomposing dead flesh.

karenmamo
11-19-2008, 02:40 PM
It seems by the perps statement that the clothes are in a different place than the body.
Why would she have taken her clothes off of her....?? ........or has been discussed already?

JWG
11-19-2008, 02:40 PM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


...
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
...



I had not heard about that find during the TES search. Was it considered significant, meaning LE took the bags as evidence?

I would be shocked if Caylee's clothes actually smelled nearly five months after the fact, being outdoors in the elements, albeit in a garbage bag. After that much time I would think they would smell like their surroundings.

angcoop
11-19-2008, 02:45 PM
Would you want an innocent child of yours that was murdered to be left out in the elements, never to be found? That would forever haunt me and destroy me if that were my child. Why does Caylee deserve that, just because her family is evil? I think the least we can do for that little girl is to find her and give her a place to rest.


Hi, I just joined last week but have been following this case as a guest since the beginning. I have wondered this sooo many times...so many times that it has drove me nuts. I have prayed as have others everynight for God to bring this baby home, but we have to remember that she is already home. She is in a far better place than all of us. Thinking about this helps me to keep my sanity. My mother died when I was 17 and I held her hand and counted her last breaths and when she died I couldn't believe how different she looked. Her soul had exited her body and went to a far better place. Our body is like our shell and our soul does move on to a better place so I know that finding her body would bring closure to everyone but for Caylee herself that is not her out their by herself somewhere she is up in heaven with my mother and I guarantee my mom is taking great care of her along with all the other angels in heaven. Neway, just wanted to say that. This is my first post so please be gentle!! LOL!

Mendara
11-19-2008, 02:48 PM
While it would be nice for Caylee to have a memorial of some sort, no further harm can come to Caylee. If she really si dead, the lack of a "Proper Burial" isnt hurting her.

If you are religious then it is as she needs a proper burial, also it would pain me as a parent, friend and even now as a stranger to think of that childs body decomposing in water or rotting somewhere. It is just sad and wrong to dispose of a child like garbage.

secretagent
11-19-2008, 02:50 PM
Casey left an unorganized crime scene....the car. Kc's clothes were in the car. Maybe she did wear those slacks when she murdered Caylee? But where is the blouse she wore,... Cindy, did you wash that too. I suspect you did :waitasec:

She changed her clothes on the way to TonE's on the 16th, between 4:30 and 7:30, tossing her grey slacks, blouse, shoes, etc. in the backseat, not wanting to deal with Caylee at the time. She pretty much did not want to deal with the car at all and was borrowing other cars and making up excuses lilke running out of gas...

The baby doll (unclothed also) causes me concern. I want to know what CA did with Caylee's backpack. I suspect there were clothes in that backpack. CA washed them or disposed of them. CA had no good reason to wash anything in a crime scene. She also washed the knife. My senses tell me that the car was a total mess and was gone thru with a fine tooth comb by CA. :mad:

NO NORMAL PERSON would wash smell of death clothes and put them away in their home....Dear God. A Normal person would have put them in the garbage, but CA was afraid they were seen by the towing co., so she took care of possible evidence by washing it, just in case that tow truck guy remembered seeing them. :rolleyes:

But the towing co. never inventoried the car..and after the A's figured that out, they went thru backpacks, paperwork and clothing, if any in the packs....never turning that info over to LE. Ca found Amy in some paperwork, as I recall.

Since the bag with decomp was in the car in the tow yard, perhaps the body was still in the car, wrapped tightly and placed in the wheel well. Maybe the A's hid the body, after the fact. Maybe GA did not go to work (like they say) but in fact left and hid the evidence. That can be figured out by his time card, if he had one....but still doesn't prevent him from hiding the body on the way. Who could go to work that day? No NORMAL person would go to work when there Grandchild is missing and car smells of death.

I would like to think kc was al least kind to her after death. But folks, lets be realistic here. She didn't even give her the baby doll which Caylee loved.....heartless wench!

I am simply brainstorming here, but removing clothes is telling. KC is saying someone hid clothes, there was decomp on the bag in the car. I am have to think she was going to go back to that car and finish but it got intercepted. When I saw "Babydoll" there unclothed, I thought it odd. Everyone who knew Caylee also knew she took her doll with her ............ always. It appears to be a direct message by kc or a mistake that she was going to fix later.

She is macabre...think "Dexter". :furious:

would like to think kc was al least kind to her after death. But folks, lets be realistic here. She didn't even give her the baby doll which Caylee loved.....heartless wench!

What does a dead 3 year old need a baby doll for?

JADEPRINCESS
11-19-2008, 02:53 PM
Remember, Caylee left behind her baby doll & backpack as well....very telling considering she kept them closeby always

secretagent
11-19-2008, 02:53 PM
If you are religious then it is as she needs a proper burial, also it would pain me as a parent, friend and even now as a stranger to think of that childs body decomposing in water or rotting somewhere. It is just sad and wrong to dispose of a child like garbage.

I was raised catholic. And truthfully if her short life was as sad as it appears it was, maybe laying out in the peacefulness of nature is just where she needs to be, I think alot of people (waho really when you boil it down are strangers to caylee)are geting a little overly melodramatic about it. The person that Caylee is/was lives on in the hearts of people who knew her.

secretagent
11-19-2008, 02:56 PM
Would you want an innocent child of yours that was murdered to be left out in the elements, never to be found? That would forever haunt me and destroy me if that were my child. Why does Caylee deserve that, just because her family is evil? I think the least we can do for that little girl is to find her and give her a place to rest.

I think the burial of people is always about the people who are left behind, not the person who died. And if the people left behind are only the Anthonys then no, I dont think she needs to be put into a cemetary.

Lanie
11-19-2008, 02:57 PM
Would you want an innocent child of yours that was murdered to be left out in the elements, never to be found? That would forever haunt me and destroy me if that were my child. Why does Caylee deserve that, just because her family is evil? I think the least we can do for that little girl is to find her and give her a place to rest.

Do you think, if you believe in God, that He would turn Caylee away from heaven because she hadn't received a 'proper burial'?
If you believe in God, do you not believe He has given her a place to rest in His arms?
I don't believe anyone here wants Caylee's body left out in the elements, but I do agree for Caylee it doesn't matter, which is what the post was about, no more harm can come to Caylee. A proper burial is for the benefit of those left behind, so they feel they have shown respect to the deceased, at least in my opinion.
Lanie

Celt1997
11-19-2008, 02:57 PM
I had not heard about that find during the TES search. Was it considered significant, meaning LE took the bags as evidence?

I would be shocked if Caylee's clothes actually smelled nearly five months after the fact, being outdoors in the elements, albeit in a garbage bag. After that much time I would think they would smell like their surroundings.

The press very quickly came out and said that is nothing more than animal remains. I guess it is possible that they were too quick to judge and there are tests going on right now, but when the Sunderson Road find was made it was immediately reported as being animal-related.

angcoop
11-19-2008, 03:02 PM
would like to think kc was al least kind to her after death. But folks, lets be realistic here. She didn't even give her the baby doll which Caylee loved.....heartless wench!

What does a dead 3 year old need a baby doll for?

I agree with you!! She makes me sick!! I just don't understand how you can care sooo little for a precious child!!!:furious:

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 03:02 PM
And frozen fresh meat is a lot different than decomposing dead flesh.

http://www.seaworldadventurepark.info/alligator.php

Eating Habits

Alligators are nocturnal feeders and prefer fish, frogs, snakes, turtles, and birds, but will also eat carrion (dead carcasses). They will drag their prey underwater to drown it first. They have a special valve in their throats called a glottis that prevents them from drowning! They must come above water to swallow their prey though, which they will do whole. If the prey is too large to do that, they will twist and flip and squirm until a piece comes loose enough to swallow.

Alligators will also attack small animals such as dogs and pigs. Alligators that become familiar with humans become dangerous and will sometimes attack. That is why it is illegal in Florida to feed alligators in the wild. Sometimes alligators are blamed for the attacks by their more aggressive cousin, the crocodile.

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 03:07 PM
Do you think, if you believe in God, that He would turn Caylee away from heaven because she hadn't received a 'proper burial'?
If you believe in God, do you not believe He has given her a place to rest in His arms?
I don't believe anyone here wants Caylee's body left out in the elements, but I do agree for Caylee it doesn't matter, which is what the post was about, no more harm can come to Caylee. A proper burial is for the benefit of those left behind, so they feel they have shown respect to the deceased, at least in my opinion.
Lanie

Amen, Lanie.

And I think it would be a final insult for Caylee to be buried with a headstone that includes the name of her 'heroic mother'.... the person directly responsible for her death!

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 03:15 PM
If you are religious then it is as she needs a proper burial, also it would pain me as a parent, friend and even now as a stranger to think of that childs body decomposing in water or rotting somewhere. It is just sad and wrong to dispose of a child like garbage.

Secret Agent didn't say it's OK to let a body rot like garbage. He said it's not BOTHERING CAYLEE that her body hasn't been found.

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 03:19 PM
http://www.seaworldadventurepark.info/alligator.php

Eating Habits

Alligators are nocturnal feeders and prefer fish, frogs, snakes, turtles, and birds, but will also eat carrion (dead carcasses). They will drag their prey underwater to drown it first. They have a special valve in their throats called a glottis that prevents them from drowning! They must come above water to swallow their prey though, which they will do whole. If the prey is too large to do that, they will twist and flip and squirm until a piece comes loose enough to swallow.

Alligators will also attack small animals such as dogs and pigs. Alligators that become familiar with humans become dangerous and will sometimes attack. That is why it is illegal in Florida to feed alligators in the wild. Sometimes alligators are blamed for the attacks by their more aggressive cousin, the crocodile.


A little more info:

Feeding Habits
Alligators are carnivores. Young alligators eat insects, snails and other invertebrates, frogs and small fish. At a length of about six feet they begin to feed predominantly on fish, turtles, snakes, waterbirds, and small mammals. Larger alligators readily eat carrion and, in fact, may prefer it to fresh meat. They are basically opportunistic feeders and will eat almost anything, including such objects as sticks, stones, fishing lures and aluminum cans.
(Return to this document's contents list.)

http://agrigator.ifas.ufl.edu/gators/#feeding

LI_Mom
11-19-2008, 03:23 PM
A little more info:



http://agrigator.ifas.ufl.edu/gators/#feeding

Ick! I KNEW there was a reason I got a dog instead of an alligator. lol

yolorado
11-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Yolorado! How on earth did you get a hold of Jose's defense SCRIPT??? :crazy::crazy::crazy:

He threw it at me in JB Park. It happened about a month ago, but he said he'd kill a family of squirrels if I didn't didn't keep quiet about it for 31 days!

impatientredhead
11-19-2008, 03:32 PM
OMG is she implying she knows what Caylee was wearing when the she went missing?

May have already been stated, but if it was in the ten days she was out what major areas had already been searched?

The statement to me sounds like "these idiots aren't going to find anything, they didn't even find her clothes"...

Which would mean she knows the two are seperate and makes me think searchers have already been where the clothes were/are?

Manny
11-19-2008, 03:39 PM
A healthy dose of skepticism is important in this whole ordeal. Consider Padilla.. he enters the picture convinced that KC is innocent.. then does a complete 180. Now he's dropping bombs when he pleases. As I stated earlier, I'm on the fence about him, but ya gotta take him with a grain of salt. One of the best reporters on this story, Kathy from WFTV, obviously thinks he's an empty (cowboy) suit.

:lol that term "empty suit" used to mean a mob lawyer.. does it still mean that?

raines67
11-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Hi, I just joined last week but have been following this case as a guest since the beginning. I have wondered this sooo many times...so many times that it has drove me nuts. I have prayed as have others everynight for God to bring this baby home, but we have to remember that she is already home. She is in a far better place than all of us. Thinking about this helps me to keep my sanity. My mother died when I was 17 and I held her hand and counted her last breaths and when she died I couldn't believe how different she looked. Her soul had exited her body and went to a far better place. Our body is like our shell and our soul does move on to a better place so I know that finding her body would bring closure to everyone but for Caylee herself that is not her out their by herself somewhere she is up in heaven with my mother and I guarantee my mom is taking great care of her along with all the other angels in heaven. Neway, just wanted to say that. This is my first post so please be gentle!! LOL!

Aww, Welcome! I was holding my mom's hand too when she passed, just her and I, like when she gave birth to me. Love what you said, and I have too thought that my mom is taking care of Caylee.! :blowkiss:

raines67
11-19-2008, 03:54 PM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


Consider that Casey began the process of digging a hole in the backyard with intent to bury the body, but, after some effort the bagged body was placed in the shallow hole, and perhaps Casey began the process of covering it with loose dirt. At this point Casey observed the hole wasn't deep enough and aborted this burial location in favor of a disposal elsewhere, and returned the shovel. The bagged body was placed in the trunk and carried with it some loose dirt.
Consider that Caylee's clothes weren't removed until after the first day of death had elapsed in hopes that if/when discovered the remains would be unidentifiable otherwise, in which case they may have already contained some early decomp fluid
Consider the removed clothes were bagged and thrown in the trunk of the Pontiac with the intent to dispose of them.
Consider the disposal of the body became an unanticipated and overwhelming problem for Casey, and disposing of the bag of clothes faded in comparison to this problem.
Consider the flurry of calls 6/16PM was to support a planned "unable to find ZFG", and, "I tried to reach you" claim later, and the disappearance of Casey from the G&C's presence was necessitated by the presence of the body in the trunk or backyard which required dealing with prior to coming forward. This mode of delaying the inevitable confrontation with G&C became easier over time, even after the body had been disposed - ultimately stretching to 31 days and Cindy's forcing the issue.
Consider, following the disposal of the body, the bag of clothing remained in the trunk until 6/27 when Casey investigates the source of the smell, discovers the bag and tosses it, subsequently commenting to Amy about getting rid of the source of the smell.
Consider there may have been several bags of trash in the trunk of the Pontiac as at least one was discovered and submitted into evidence when the car was recovered on 7/15.
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
Consider Casey did not intend to lose the Pontiac as she was taking actions to secure gas (see "the chase" post in 6/29-only ping thread, and Amy's statements about securing gas can 6/30 morning).


This all sounds very plausible:clap:

Janis396
11-19-2008, 03:59 PM
Do you think, if you believe in God, that He would turn Caylee away from heaven because she hadn't received a 'proper burial'?
If you believe in God, do you not believe He has given her a place to rest in His arms?
I don't believe anyone here wants Caylee's body left out in the elements, but I do agree for Caylee it doesn't matter, which is what the post was about, no more harm can come to Caylee. A proper burial is for the benefit of those left behind, so they feel they have shown respect to the deceased, at least in my opinion.
Lanie

I wasn't even thinking of the God aspect when I wrote that. And no, I'm not religious.

I was coming from the aspect as if this had been my child that had been murdered. It would torment me forever knowing she was lost out in the elements never to be found and laid to rest. And knowing the things that could have been done to her out there, unprotected. Yes, I realize it's "just" her body, but it's the body that I would have held, rocked, hugged, kissed, and that body has the eyes that would have looked into mine that expressed her feelings to me. So no, I can't look at it as if it "just" a body, and it's not really HER. And I feel those same feelings about Caylee that I would if it were my own child. But I'm just speaking for me. I truly want Caylee found, no matter what else happens.

BondJamesBond
11-19-2008, 04:21 PM
The press very quickly came out and said that is nothing more than animal remains. I guess it is possible that they were too quick to judge and there are tests going on right now, but when the Sunderson Road find was made it was immediately reported as being animal-related.

Not to drag this thread off-topic.

Here's the thread dedicated to that find: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74772
...so prolly best to have follow-up discussion there as-interested.

1) A WS (chesterp) was with that search team and confirmed the location in the thread via maps. Although chesterp was far enough away from the find that he couldn't quantify it, he was adamant about the strength and offensiveness of the smell. He was very kind to answer questions in this thread.

2) As is discussed on that thread there was something odd about the way this find was reported. IIRC, quick summary, TES rep. first stated something about how many times they are searching for one persons remains and find another (odd statement on many levels considering the stage it was made & the location of the find), Tim Miller was dispatched to the site. Eventually,
"forensic" people made statements dispositioning these as animal remains. I'm sure I recalled some details in error, but, this should provide the gist of it...somethin' odd to me about it.

Not trying to state that this is definitively the bag-o-clothes...just up for consideration. More important point for speculation was that the bag-o-clothes may have likely been the source of the strong lingering decomp smell that Casey could've ultimately identified and disposed of 6/27. For the sake of the post there were just too many coincidences regarding the content of Casey's texts that morning, the location (Suncerson) she made them from, and the identical location (Sunderson) of this recent find to ignore on the topic.

angcoop
11-19-2008, 04:25 PM
I wasn't even thinking of the God aspect when I wrote that. And no, I'm not religious.

I was coming from the aspect as if this had been my child that had been murdered. It would torment me forever knowing she was lost out in the elements never to be found and laid to rest. And knowing the things that could have been done to her out there, unprotected. Yes, I realize it's "just" her body, but it's the body that I would have held, rocked, hugged, kissed, and that body has the eyes that would have looked into mine that expressed her feelings to me. So no, I can't look at it as if it "just" a body, and it's not really HER. And I feel those same feelings about Caylee that I would if it were my own child. But I'm just speaking for me. I truly want Caylee found, no matter what else happens.

I agree with what you are saying, and I felt and still feel the same way you do. I guess I hold onto the fact that she is not hurting anymore and is in heaven and that helps me cope. I know if this were my mikey out there I also woudl be going crazy and would want him found because like you said it is hard to imagine that lil angel in which you loved so much and cared for out in the cold somewhere, where you can no longer care for him and help him. It makes me sooo incredibly sad. This entire case has just messed me up. I cannot fathom what this so called mother did to this lil angel. From the first time I layed eyes on Caylee she grabbed ahold of my heart and hasn't let go and I too want Caylee found and still pray to God everynight that she is. Lastnight I cried soo hard while watching Nancy Grace when they said what Casey said about the clothing. I just couldn't believe how freakin heartless she is. She will be punished one way or another!!!!!

Pegster57
11-19-2008, 04:43 PM
If Casey is saying that they [I]"They
If the pants were left behind on purpose what does that tell us that would be helpful as another clue.

If the pants were left behind by accident what would that tell us that would be helpful as another clue.


I don't think the pants have to do with anything. I think they were part of her work charade. She left for "work" in her dressier work clothes and changed out of them after she left home. I think if she had clothes with body fluids on them, they would be long gone. jmo.

Pegster57
11-19-2008, 04:53 PM
Did anyone see this http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/21%20Computer%20Forensics%20Report.pdf
That on the 12th June CA searched for a name being ZG !!!!

I bet she did. Thats who Casey said took her and she was trying to find contact information about this person. I'd have googled her, too.

ibyoungr
11-19-2008, 05:12 PM
Did anyone see this http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/21%20Computer%20Forensics%20Report.pdf
That on the 12th June CA searched for a name being ZG !!!!

The report you reference above states that a search was performed on July 16th, 2008 for the name Zenaida.
" A keyword search for "Zenaida" revealed Web pages indicating that a user searched the internet for that name on July 16, 2008."

The report states that this search was performed on Cindy's computer. I do not find this at all unusual. If my daughter told me the night before she "lost" my grandaugter to a Zenaida then I guess I would do the same as Cindy and perform a web search as well. Can we say without a doubt that KC
performed this search on Cindy's pc?

I am not sticking up or saying KC is innocent... I am just not seeing that CA searched for the name on June 12th.

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 05:23 PM
I was raised catholic. And truthfully if her short life was as sad as it appears it was, maybe laying out in the peacefulness of nature is just where she needs to be, I think alot of people (waho really when you boil it down are strangers to caylee)are geting a little overly melodramatic about it. The person that Caylee is/was lives on in the hearts of people who knew her.

I'll grant you that the last weeks of Caylee's life were probably sad and scary, but I think the majority of her life she was a beloved grandchild, doted on and spoiled by her grandparents.

Ick! I KNEW there was a reason I got a dog instead of an alligator. lol

Talk about! Did you see the pic. of the items found in an alligator's belly?



The link to the documents: Interesting read.

There is a photo of Caylee taken at 12PM (noon) Sunday, June 15th......Father's Day. The NEXT day, Casey is doing an internet search for Zenaida.

The only reason to search for Zenaida is so Caylee can explain Caylee's absence. (Or at least that's all I can think of right this second.)

On the 22nd, she chats with Mark H. telling him Caylee is HUGE, really growing, how surprised he'll be to see her.....

but by then, surely Caylee was gone?

Lanie
11-19-2008, 05:24 PM
I wasn't even thinking of the God aspect when I wrote that. And no, I'm not religious.

I was coming from the aspect as if this had been my child that had been murdered. It would torment me forever knowing she was lost out in the elements never to be found and laid to rest. And knowing the things that could have been done to her out there, unprotected. Yes, I realize it's "just" her body, but it's the body that I would have held, rocked, hugged, kissed, and that body has the eyes that would have looked into mine that expressed her feelings to me. So no, I can't look at it as if it "just" a body, and it's not really HER. And I feel those same feelings about Caylee that I would if it were my own child. But I'm just speaking for me. I truly want Caylee found, no matter what else happens.

I'm not the author of the original post, but I feel exactly the same way he/she does.
I understand what you are saying, but where in either of your posts do you address further harm to CAYLEE if she is not given a proper burial?
You will get no argument from me on how I would feel about my murdered child having a proper burial, but again, not what the original post was saying. I have refrained from making this same post over and over throughout this case, because I felt this is where it would go, and it did. Because I too feel it makes no difference to CAYLEE if she is given a proper burial or not does not mean I don't care if she is found, does not mean I would not have a problem if my child was presumed dead and I was not able to give her a proper funeral, etc ad naseum.
I do want Caylee found, and it does bother me to think about her in the circumstances she is in right now, because I don't believe for one moment Casey could be troubled to even dig a shallow grave, but no, I do not believe for one minute it matters to Caylee. I also think, JMO, it is way more important the person responsible for Caylee's death, whom I firmly believe is Casey, is put away and never allowed to do to another child, or anyone else for that matter, what she has already done to her daughter.
Lanie

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 05:27 PM
I was raised catholic. And truthfully if her short life was as sad as it appears it was, maybe laying out in the peacefulness of nature is just where she needs to be, I think alot of people (waho really when you boil it down are strangers to caylee)are geting a little overly melodramatic about it. The person that Caylee is/was lives on in the hearts of people who knew her.

I'll grant you that the last weeks of Caylee's life were probably sad and scary, but I think the majority of her life she was a beloved grandchild, doted on and spoiled by her grandparents.

Ick! I KNEW there was a reason I got a dog instead of an alligator. lol

Talk about! Did you see the pic. of the items found in an alligator's belly?



The link to the documents: Interesting read.

There is a photo of Caylee taken at 12PM (noon) Sunday, June 15th......Father's Day. The NEXT day, Casey is doing an internet search for Zenaida.

The only reason to search for Zenaida is so Caylee can explain Caylee's absence. (Or at least that's all I can think of right this second.)(Assuming the search is by Casey) If the search is by Cindy, then we know Cindy was trying to find Zani, either to have a means of contact, to verify her existance or to try to see if Casey was lying to her.



On the 22nd, she chats with Mark H. telling him Caylee is HUGE, really growing, how surprised he'll be to see her.....

but by then, surely Caylee was gone?

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 05:31 PM
It seems by the perps statement that the clothes are in a different place than the body.
Why would she have taken her clothes off of her....?? ........or has been discussed already? This sounds like something right out of the defense handbook as a strategy defending the perp's statement:
I think the statement IS being taken out of context. It's important to understand Casey's background to understand this statement. If you work at any amusement park in Orlando, in a kidnapping situation (where all the employees are looking for a possibly kidnapped child), they tell you to not expect the child to be wearing the same clothes or looking like they did BEFORE being taken. Generally, the kidnappers will not change the shoes and that is what employees are told to look for when a child goes missing. I am certain Casey would have been in one of those security briefings when she worked at Universal Studios. She was implying that Caylee was kidnapped and her clothes were changed somewhere by the kidnapper. I'm not saying I believe her, I'm just saying she took information she knew from when she worked at Universal Studios and interjected this comment to indicate that Caylee was kidnapped. In a true kidnapping clothes would be found in a restroom or wherever the kidnappers had been.

After reading this it was a light bulb moment for me. Of course, the clothes she planted at Universal and why she took LE there to begin with! She thought they would start looking at Universal and talk to security who record found items. She planted the clothes to look like a kidnapping near the office building where they were sitting during that interview (she mentioned to Lee going back there in the jail house call?), imo. She told them it was why she wanted them to be there and told them to talk to security if you listen to the interview...in her backwards kind of way. It is the perfect scenario to fit in the Z story that she lined up for them. A real treasure hunt they did not follow up on much to her dismay!

(Hopefully, this will get us back on topic here, too!!)

rozey
11-19-2008, 05:31 PM
There is a photo of Caylee taken at 12PM (noon) Sunday, June 15th......Father's Day. The NEXT day, Casey is doing an internet search for Zenaida.

The only reason to search for Zenaida is so Caylee can explain Caylee's absence. (Or at least that's all I can think of right this second.)

On the 22nd, she chats with Mark H. telling him Caylee is HUGE, really growing, how surprised he'll be to see her.....

but by then, surely Caylee was gone?

As posted by ibyoungr, the ZG search was JULY 16th.

Recovering-Lurker
11-19-2008, 05:34 PM
After reading this it was a light bulb moment for me. Of course, the clothes she planted at Universal and why she took LE there to begin with! She thought they would start looking at Universal and talk to security who record found items. She planted the clothes to look like a kidnapping near the office building where they were sitting during that interview, imo. She told them it was why she wanted them to be there and told them to talk to security if you listen to the interview...in her backwards kind of way. It is the perfect scenario to fit in the Z story that she lined up for them. A real treasure hunt they did not follow up on much to her dismay!

Yes, I think that is a very good possibilty. Did the cell phone pings place her in that area?

rozey
11-19-2008, 05:36 PM
This sounds like something right out of the defense handbook as a strategy defending the perp's statement:


After reading this it was a light bulb moment for me. Of course, the clothes she planted at Universal and why she took LE there to begin with! She thought they would start looking at Universal and talk to security who record found items. She planted the clothes to look like a kidnapping near the office building where they were sitting during that interview, imo. She told them it was why she wanted them to be there and told them to talk to security if you listen to the interview...in her backwards kind of way. It is the perfect scenario to fit in the Z story that she lined up for them. A real treasure hunt they did not follow up on much to her dismay!

(Hopefully, this will get us back on topic here, too!!)

ITA. I think she also cut her hair so when she was found she could say, 'SEE', the kidnappers did it. IMO

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 05:39 PM
Yes, I think that is a very good possibilty. Did the cell phone pings place her in that area?I haven't checked that out yet. Good idea to look tho!

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 05:40 PM
ITA. I think she also cut her hair so when she was found she could say, 'SEE', the kidnappers did it. IMOI don't see her going that far. She isn't really leading them to the body, but leading them into the Z kidnap scenario.

rozey
11-19-2008, 05:42 PM
I don't see her going that far. She isn't really leading them to the body, but leading them into the Z kidnap scenario.

The reason I brought it up is because she mentions it in her interview with LE when they were at Universal.

Pondering Mind
11-19-2008, 05:44 PM
Would you want an innocent child of yours that was murdered to be left out in the elements, never to be found? That would forever haunt me and destroy me if that were my child. Why does Caylee deserve that, just because her family is evil? I think the least we can do for that little girl is to find her and give her a place to rest.

Janis, I SO agree with you! I HAVE lost a child and even though I know that my child as I knew him is not there anymore, I can not imagine him NOT having a final resting place. The comfort of at least being able to go there and feel like I am close is something that I can't imagine not having.

Pink Panther
11-19-2008, 05:45 PM
If she did have the audacity to make such a statement (which I have no problem believing after having seen her strut her stolen goods) then surely, she's slipped and said other similarly allarming things...BEFORE CA "clued in" and found her! I'm very curious to see if any of her friends and/or acquaintances might have remembered something she said or did now that they have a better understanding of who she really is and what she is capable of!

Mama52dsm
11-19-2008, 05:48 PM
Can we even discount the possibility that Caylee was still alive but drugged when she dumped her into some lake?

If Caylee was just DUMPed in the lake or river without being weighted down, eventually she would have floated to the top.

impatientredhead
11-19-2008, 06:07 PM
If Caylee was just DUMPed in the lake or river without being weighted down, eventually she would have floated to the top.

That will vary with the water conditions, temps, body condition, and what is eating the body and how quickly. I believe they eventually sink again once the CO2 is expelled at the surface, so depending on where she was she still may not be spotted.

I think she put her in a dumpsters personally. The one at Tony's that was probably picked up 2.6 days after the time of death.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 06:12 PM
The reason I brought it up is because she mentions it in her interview with LE when they were at Universal.I think if security had found anything like cut hair...they would have called LE immediately tho. Just finding clothing, they would not.

Skully
11-19-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't see her going that far. She isn't really leading them to the body, but leading them into the Z kidnap scenario.

Even when she was talking to her friend christen at jail, she said LE wasn't listening to a thing she said. She said that again to LA. She mentions JBP 8 times a LP points out. I think she did stuff after the fact to make this fit her story. It is a game of sorts to her, a hunt for who will find her and she will say I told you so.

I think we need to go back over the interviews and phone calls. I don't think she had her phone on or with her when she disposed of Caylee because she dated 3 or 4 cops, her dad was cop, she knows she can be traced by it. I think if you look at the places you SHOULD see pings and don't you will have a better chance of finding Caylee. JMO

Lanie
11-19-2008, 06:21 PM
This sounds like something right out of the defense handbook as a strategy defending the perp's statement:


After reading this it was a light bulb moment for me. Of course, the clothes she planted at Universal and why she took LE there to begin with! She thought they would start looking at Universal and talk to security who record found items. She planted the clothes to look like a kidnapping near the office building where they were sitting during that interview (she mentioned to Lee going back there in the jail house call?), imo. She told them it was why she wanted them to be there and told them to talk to security if you listen to the interview...in her backwards kind of way. It is the perfect scenario to fit in the Z story that she lined up for them. A real treasure hunt they did not follow up on much to her dismay!

(Hopefully, this will get us back on topic here, too!!)

Casey's story to LE was she dropped Caylee off at Sawgrass with ZFG. Why would ZFG then take Caylee to Universal Studios, isn't this a massive theme park with tons of people and cameras(?) to change her appearance?
Lanie

Lovejac
11-19-2008, 06:25 PM
Even when she was talking to her friend christen at jail, she said LE wasn't listening to a thing she said. She said that again to LA. She mentions JBP 8 times a LP points out. I think she did stuff after the fact to make this fit her story. It is a game of sorts to her, a hunt for who will find her and she will say I told you so.

I think we need to go back over the interviews and phone calls. I don't think she had her phone on or with her when she disposed of Caylee because she dated 3 or 4 cops, her dad was cop, she knows she can be traced by it. I think if you look at the places you SHOULD see pings and don't you will have a better chance of finding Caylee. JMO


This heartless beotch thinks the search for Caylee is a 'scavenger' hunt :furious:

Lovejac
11-19-2008, 06:27 PM
Lemme add a little speculation myself to some points already posted...jus summarizing for convenience.


Consider that Casey began the process of digging a hole in the backyard with intent to bury the body, but, after some effort the bagged body was placed in the shallow hole, and perhaps Casey began the process of covering it with loose dirt. At this point Casey observed the hole wasn't deep enough and aborted this burial location in favor of a disposal elsewhere, and returned the shovel. The bagged body was placed in the trunk and carried with it some loose dirt.
Consider that Caylee's clothes weren't removed until after the first day of death had elapsed in hopes that if/when discovered the remains would be unidentifiable otherwise, in which case they may have already contained some early decomp fluid
Consider the removed clothes were bagged and thrown in the trunk of the Pontiac with the intent to dispose of them.
Consider the disposal of the body became an unanticipated and overwhelming problem for Casey, and disposing of the bag of clothes faded in comparison to this problem.
Consider the flurry of calls 6/16PM was to support a planned "unable to find ZFG", and, "I tried to reach you" claim later, and the disappearance of Casey from the G&C's presence was necessitated by the presence of the body in the trunk or backyard which required dealing with prior to coming forward. This mode of delaying the inevitable confrontation with G&C became easier over time, even after the body had been disposed - ultimately stretching to 31 days and Cindy's forcing the issue.
Consider, following the disposal of the body, the bag of clothing remained in the trunk until 6/27 when Casey investigates the source of the smell, discovers the bag and tosses it, subsequently commenting to Amy about getting rid of the source of the smell.
Consider there may have been several bags of trash in the trunk of the Pontiac as at least one was discovered and submitted into evidence when the car was recovered on 7/15.
Consider some bags of trash were discovered ~11/9 in a wooded area on Sunderson Rd in a "hole" created by some trees, with searchers commenting on the stench from many, many yards away, and causing them to run the other direction for relief...yet, no remains were not located with this trash. Recall that DNA testing may require several weeks to process.
Consider the cell tower Casey pinged the morning of 6/27 @ 11:34AM commenting to Amy about getting rid of the smell IS ON Sunderson Road, albeit a slight detour, on her return trip toward Tony's - cut short @ Amscot that morning.
Consider Casey did not intend to lose the Pontiac as she was taking actions to secure gas (see "the chase" post in 6/29-only ping thread, and Amy's statements about securing gas can 6/30 morning).


IMO this is making the most sense. You have a gift Bond......are you in LE?!

pregodego2
11-19-2008, 06:43 PM
ZFG/Zanny/nanny/kidnapping was nothing more than the "vessel" to get all of the clues in. She talked about Blanchard Park- so maybe the cross that was found was one clue she arranged. I heard it was found on a jogging path, so the clues are probably not well hidden. Just maybe not easily recognized.


KC did meantion things about jogging there too.


(You know what ? I don't buy this about the blouse and skirt. I cannot tell you what I wore 31 days ago. Can any of you remember what your child wore 31 days ago ?)

i believe george would. my dad was an EMT,and everytime i went out alone he would remember what i wore. It was in his nature in case anything ever came over his scanner, or he showed up to a scene he would know it was me.

george was a cop, i think he really could have remembered.




Even when she was talking to her friend christen at jail, she said LE wasn't listening to a thing she said. She said that again to LA. She mentions JBP 8 times a LP points out. I think she did stuff after the fact to make this fit her story. It is a game of sorts to her, a hunt for who will find her and she will say I told you so.

I think we need to go back over the interviews and phone calls. I don't think she had her phone on or with her when she disposed of Caylee because she dated 3 or 4 cops, her dad was cop, she knows she can be traced by it. I think if you look at the places you SHOULD see pings and don't you will have a better chance of finding Caylee. JMO

And i don't put it past casey to ask questions like this in passing...no one owuld have thought about it then.

SeriouslySearching
11-19-2008, 06:44 PM
Casey's story to LE was she dropped Caylee off at Sawgrass with ZFG. Why would ZFG then take Caylee to Universal Studios, isn't this a massive theme park with tons of people and cameras(?) to change her appearance?
LanieShe explains it in her statement that day. In perpland, it makes sense to her while it wouldn't to anyone else. She said that Z would bring Caylee there because it was a place she was familiar with. She gave other reasons, too.

The point is that it would be a Casey thing to do and the reason it was mentioned here at all could be because it is being bantered about with the defense, imo.

rozey
11-19-2008, 07:06 PM
I think if security had found anything like cut hair...they would have called LE immediately tho. Just finding clothing, they would not.

I wonder if some of the hair found in the trunk could have been cut. When I was reviewing her interview it stood out. It seemed like she wanted to make sure they knew this. Why even bring it up?

pregodego2
11-19-2008, 07:37 PM
she's just using pieces of movies she watches. cut hair and finding clothing...all movie CSI type stuff.

kgeaux
11-19-2008, 07:52 PM
As posted by ibyoungr, the ZG search was JULY 16th.

Thank you, sweetie. I read the post referencing June 16, followed the link, read all of the documents, and STILL didn't catch the "JULY." :blowkiss:

CapsDeej
11-19-2008, 10:13 PM
I'm curious about KC's statement about searchers not finding the clothes. This implies that Caylee did not have said clothing on. Assuming that KC disposed of the clothing and the body, what reason would KC have for removing the clothing? Could this reason shed some light on where Caylee might be?

Skully
11-19-2008, 11:16 PM
I don't know why she would take the cloths off of her, but what if she is referring to cloths that were "extra things". Like we don't know where the back pack is. There were 2, one on the list LE took from the home (DORA THE EXPLORER ONE) then the one GA mentions, with the monkeys on it. She must have had things she took with her, even if it was a small amount. A toothbrush, hair brush, toys.

The other reason could be that the cloths had clorophorm on them or like some one else said, vomit. The body also swell from the gases that omit after death so maybe it had to do with that?? I don't really what to invision that, don't want that in my memory bank.:eek:

CourtsInSession
11-19-2008, 11:46 PM
SHe is one sick puppy. Casey probably put Caylee's clothes in MANY locations. I think half of her statements while out & with Tracey were probably to see if she was right. Maybe she was hoping Tracey would confirm they hadn't or they did in fact recover. I think Casey was fishing. But, like I said before, she probably put Caylee's clothes in many locations.


It wouldn't have been hard for Casey to have washed Caylele's clothes with hers, when washing at Amy's. Casey could have thrown them in the Goodwill bin to get rid of them also.

kiki the parrot
11-20-2008, 12:24 AM
I was raised catholic. And truthfully if her short life was as sad as it appears it was, maybe laying out in the peacefulness of nature is just where she needs to be, I think alot of people (waho really when you boil it down are strangers to caylee)are geting a little overly melodramatic about it. The person that Caylee is/was lives on in the hearts of people who knew her.

Rather than imagining the "peacefulness of nature" (ie alligators, landfills, being torn limb from limb) that her tiny body may be laying in, I think we can take genuine comfort that Caylee's spirit, like all innocents, went to heaven. JMO

I'll grant you that the last weeks of Caylee's life were probably sad and scary, but I think the majority of her life she was a beloved grandchild, doted on and spoiled by her grandparents.

Talk about! Did you see the pic. of the items found in an alligator's belly?

The link to the documents: Interesting read.

There is a photo of Caylee taken at 12PM (noon) Sunday, June 15th......Father's Day. The NEXT day, Casey is doing an internet search for Zenaida.

The only reason to search for Zenaida is so Caylee can explain Caylee's absence. (Or at least that's all I can think of right this second.)

(snipped) From what we have seen of CA, this is not a caretaker nor an upbringing to be envied--but blissfully would take a couple years before the control issues and effects of CA's narcissistic parenting had really begun to bear fruit. Yes Caylee had a nice room to sleep in--when she wasn't being taken into the same bed w mommy's latest boytoy. JMO

As posted by ibyoungr, the ZG search was JULY 16th.

Yes, CA has acknowledged she is the one who performed this search on 7/16 when KC claimed ZG took Caylee.

That will vary with the water conditions, temps, body condition, and what is eating the body and how quickly. I believe they eventually sink again once the CO2 is expelled at the surface, so depending on where she was she still may not be spotted.

(snipped) When people lose consciousness in water, they sink--regardless of fat, which makes them slightly more buoyant. As the body descends further, the pressure of water tends to compress gases in the abdomen and chest cavities. As a result, the body displaces less water as it sinks and so becomes less buoyant the further down it goes, until it reaches the bottom. Eventually, after 2-4 days, tissues decompose, releasing methane gases, making gravity less for the body mass and causing the body to rise.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_2_75/ai_n16111608/pg_2

I'm curious about KC's statement about searchers not finding the clothes. This implies that Caylee did not have said clothing on. Assuming that KC disposed of the clothing and the body, what reason would KC have for removing the clothing? Could this reason shed some light on where Caylee might be?

If KC, or Caylee, had removed her clothing in hopes or plans for a swim June 16, and Caylee found her way to the pool before KC realizes she's missing? This could explain why she was no longer wearing the clothes, and could also possibly explain why KC's boots and clothes--the same 'work' attire GA states KC was wearing when she and Caylee left the house--were changed out of (if soaked while retrieving Caylee's body from the pool) and thrown onto floor behind seat of KC's car where they were later found by CA and washed (smelling of mildew or mould?). JMO

Karen Anne RN
11-20-2008, 05:18 AM
[quote=JaneInOz;2961789]I'm confused :confused: is that just LP surmising what could have happened ?
I guess so.
Do you know how difficult it would be to get a shovel into the pool to scoop a child out from the bottom ? Water becomes heavy when you want to put something in move it like a oar from a boat.. you'd have to be strong.

I cant see that myself
Well, if she just got her to the top of the pool, then she could reach over and pull her the rest of the way out.
Anyway, I just thought I'd post his interview because of what he had said way back then about the clothes being taken off.

TakeNote
11-20-2008, 05:25 AM
Thank you, sweetie. I read the post referencing June 16, followed the link, read all of the documents, and STILL didn't catch the "JULY." :blowkiss:

its late and I cant find a link for this.....but I think there was a folder for searchs for ZG prior to June 15th on the PC and the search for ZG in July was put into that folder on the PC.....so the search for ZG dates back before Caylee went missing.....if Im remembering right .....:waitasec:

ShadowGal
11-20-2008, 08:10 AM
CA has only admitted to removing the pants that belonged to KC from the car. Could it be possible that she also removed some of Caylee's clothes at the same time, threw them in the washer along with the slacks of KC's.....and that's why she's saying "there's none of Caylee's clothes missing". I wouldn't put it passed her at all.

Not so sure I'm buying that Caylee sunk to the bottom of the pool. If she had already been dead for a couple of days, I believe she would have floated if put in the pool due to the gases that would be present in a body. If she did float, it wouldn't have been that hard for her to use a shovel to pull the body over close to the edge where she could then get her out. Maybe she wanted to check to see if she was going to have to weight the bag (if that's what she disposed of her in) down to keep it from floating back to the top of the water.


Hmmm. Veddy veddy inter-est-ing. And creepy. Maybe she tested pavers or bricks to see how many made it sink. Oh, this is horrible. Making me sick.

BondJamesBond
11-20-2008, 08:59 AM
its late and I cant find a link for this.....but I think there was a folder for searchs for ZG prior to June 15th on the PC and the search for ZG in July was put into that folder on the PC.....so the search for ZG dates back before Caylee went missing.....if Im remembering right .....:waitasec:

...off topic...lemme see if I can help. I know its confusing.

Regarding the ZFG searches, I was able to confirm w/ Broderick (who knows what he's talking about regarding computers) that the computer forensics report confused people into thinking the searches for ZFG were pre-7/15. They weren't. In short, the generic files that keep a history of searches were created on dates prior to 7/15.

If you want to read more you'll find it here...jus follow the posting 'tween Broderick and me (you'll still see other posters confused even as we discuss it). It is very confusing, so, its easy to understand why the idea of pre-7/15 searches has kinda lived on...

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69288&page=4

Hope this helps. :)

Shar824
11-20-2008, 09:52 AM
Hmmm. Veddy veddy inter-est-ing. And creepy. Maybe she tested pavers or bricks to see how many made it sink. Oh, this is horrible. Making me sick.


It is a sickening thought.....but remember we're talking about KC, and absolutely NOTHING she would do would be a surprise to me at all.

kiki the parrot
11-20-2008, 10:15 AM
its late and I cant find a link for this.....but I think there was a folder for searchs for ZG prior to June 15th on the PC and the search for ZG in July was put into that folder on the PC.....so the search for ZG dates back before Caylee went missing.....if Im remembering right .....:waitasec:

...off topic...lemme see if I can help. I know its confusing.

Regarding the ZFG searches, I was able to confirm w/ Broderick (who knows what he's talking about regarding computers) that the computer forensics report confused people into thinking the searches for ZFG were pre-7/15. They weren't. In short, the generic files that keep a history of searches were created on dates prior to 7/15.

If you want to read more you'll find it here...jus follow the posting 'tween Broderick and me (you'll still see other posters confused even as we discuss it). It is very confusing, so, its easy to understand why the idea of pre-7/15 searches has kinda lived on...

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69288&page=4

Hope this helps. :)

THANK YOU Bond!! I keep trying to explain that these were just the dates the original firefox files were CREATED... not when they were written to. It's actually not that confusing, and this info has appeared countless places on numerous threads. People who believe the worst just aren't willing to accept any but their preconceived, most sinister version possible--whether it conflicts w fact, or is totally false. (Nobody listens to me lol... j/k... sort of... maybe it's your username... lol) JMO

:banghead:

passionflower
11-22-2008, 10:40 AM
This heartless beotch thinks the search for Caylee is a 'scavenger' hunt :furious:

Just a game to her.......a very hard person for her age and boy the things she has done!:furious:

elle1919
11-22-2008, 10:59 AM
THANK YOU Bond!! I keep trying to explain that these were just the dates the original firefox files were CREATED... not when they were written to. It's actually not that confusing, and this info has appeared countless places on numerous threads. People who believe the worst just aren't willing to accept any but their preconceived, most sinister version possible--whether it conflicts w fact, or is totally false. (Nobody listens to me lol... j/k... sort of... maybe it's your username... lol) JMO

:banghead:

I listen to you....I think every single one of your posts are intelligent and unbiased, And very clear about gently reminding other posters of the facts that get buried in this case. It is soo hard to point my mind in a different direction when you put so many sinister things together. We are all analyzing each tidbit of information to the fullest extreme(because that is what a sleuth should do) so sometimes I use your posts to remind myself that the trial of Casey Anthony shall be my last and final resource. Still, while this beautiful child is still missing, it helps me to come here and be with others who like me have one wish...to bring her home and put and end to the questions once and for all. (Although, I know every question will never be answered to my satisfaction.)

kiki the parrot
11-22-2008, 12:26 PM
I listen to you....I think every single one of your posts are intelligent and unbiased, And very clear about gently reminding other posters of the facts that get buried in this case. It is soo hard to point my mind in a different direction when you put so many sinister things together. We are all analyzing each tidbit of information to the fullest extreme(because that is what a sleuth should do) so sometimes I use your posts to remind myself that the trial of Casey Anthony shall be my last and final resource. Still, while this beautiful child is still missing, it helps me to come here and be with others who like me have one wish...to bring her home and put and end to the questions once and for all. (Although, I know every question will never be answered to my satisfaction.)

Ty, I appreciate your posts too and it's encouraging to know our efforts aren't being totally lost...
:blushingsmiley:
As I've said, maybe it's because I have a (now) 20 year-old daughter myself who also became a teen mother to my (now) two year-old granddaughter... and have observed enough of the struggle to keep up w her childless friends, make the necessary sacrifices, maintain parental responsibilities and priorities etc to envision an accident scenario. Maybe it's because I've lived long enough to know that there are very few people who are entirely evil, or perfectly good...and that most of us fall somewhere in between. Or not long enough to accept that a young mother w other options for her child would end their child's life in a deliberate, senseless and heartless manner... The stats for child drownings--in FL especially--are staggering and themselves so senseless. And I've learned enough of the dynamics between KC and CA (in interviews eg) to suspect that admitting negligence to her mom might be far harder for KC than facing the full force of the State of FL... and my fear is that, if we--or more importantly, jurors--are willing to consider only the most heinous explanation for her lies and now silence, we may never get those answers.
:confused:
Anyway thanks again for kind words! The only time I've gotten really discouraged is recently when a fellow poster actually took something so completely out of context, actually implying that I did not want Caylee found... wow I can't tell you how hurtful that still is... whatever other differences may be between sleuthers, I trust, as you say, that everyone here has a common prayer and goal--and that is, one way or another, for Caylee to be found. JMO
:blowkiss:

KellioPSL
11-22-2008, 01:41 PM
kc took caylee's clothes off after zanaxing her but before putting her in the trunk. That is why she made the statement about the clothes. caylee was not wearing her clothes just a diaper imho. That tells me the clothes are around though.

jon_burrows
11-22-2008, 01:55 PM
I think we need to go back over the interviews and phone calls. I don't think she had her phone on or with her when she disposed of Caylee because she dated 3 or 4 cops, her dad was cop, she knows she can be traced by it. I think if you look at the places you SHOULD see pings and don't you will have a better chance of finding Caylee. JMO

She was also a fan of crime shows. I don't think she had her cell phone with her either. That's why I don't think Caylee will ever be found.

LCoastMom
11-22-2008, 02:19 PM
:laugh:....Absolutely, and after they threw me to the ground in JB Park, they threw Klee into the car with all these other children who I could see starting to strip the clothes off her. As they drove away, I could see clothing flying out of the car, but when I ran to pick it up, two dead squirrels dropped out of a tree above me, hit me on the head and knocked me unconscious. When I woke up some time later, the clothes were nowhere to be found, so I picked up the dead squirrels, put them in my car and drove to a neutral location to watch vids, cook lasagna, get a couple of bad checks ready to cash, come up with a matching club outfit and have sex. But I SAW clothes come out of the car, didn't see the license number, but I ABSOLUTELY saw clothing. I know she's close and safe with nice people who won't hurt her or kill my family as long as I keep my mouth shut!

I'm sorry, there is nothing funny about the subject matter, but your post is hysterical and I really needed the laugh with all the horrible, terrible thoughts rolling around in my head. I really wish they would bring back public hangings for anyone convicted of harming a child, or maybe some drug where they could bring the convict back from the brink at the last minute and do it again the next day. Never give them an actual day and time when the execution is going to happen, that way every time the door to the ward is opened the cons can hear it and wonder who's number is up? Is today, my day? The waiting has to be the worst part of death row: imho.

DotsEyes
11-22-2008, 05:44 PM
Sorry, I just can not imagine being more frightened of CA than death row. If this was an accidental drowning due to good mother KC being unattentive, everyone would feel the utmost sympathy for her. I happen to know a couple of people over the course of my life who lost a child in the few minutes they were involved in some other activity. They all loved their children and would never harm them under any circumstance, but in those few minutes, the child died. They all called 911. Everyone felt their pain and sympathized with them, "but for the Grace of God, this could happen to anyone" we said. Tragic.

A couple of the children drowned in a back yard pool. One while mom was arguing with the soon to be ex-hubby, daddy of the child on the phone. One while everyone thought the other one had the child with them. One was napping, woke up and drowned before anyone noticed the child was not in her crib/bed. One was run over by a car as his mother ran after him to save him. One died of heat stroke in the car, while dad went to check on his business and got distracted by employees.

All it took was a few minutes.

Remember the one who left her baby in the baby bath, then went outside to smoke a cigarette and came back to a drowned infant? Initially she tried to lie because she was so guilt ridden over what she did, but soon enough, she told LE what happened.

KC did not call for help. Why? Because her actions were intentional. She did not admit to an accident due to her own negligence. Why? Because Caylee's death was not an accident. It was not an act of negligence or inattentiveness on KC's part. No one would face death row if there was any reasonable explanation of an accidental death and panic taking over.

She can not tell what happened because then she would have to also tell where the body is located and the body will show that the death was a murder, not an accident.

THEY haven't found her clothes? This is LE's fault?

She has a ugly little mind. (JP)

LCoastMom
11-22-2008, 06:12 PM
[quote=JaneInOz;2961789]I'm confused :confused: is that just LP surmising what could have happened ?
I guess so.
Do you know how difficult it would be to get a shovel into the pool to scoop a child out from the bottom ? Water becomes heavy when you want to put something in move it like a oar from a boat.. you'd have to be strong.

I cant see that myself
Well, if she just got her to the top of the pool, then she could reach over and pull her the rest of the way out.
Anyway, I just thought I'd post his interview because of what he had said way back then about the clothes being taken off.

Why wouldn't KC just climb into the pool and handle Caylee's body by herself? Why try using a tool? Is this a case of trying to fit the evidence to the crime?

I think LP's time line is a little off, if KC were going to place Caylee in the pool for any reason without leaving a very unpleasant trail of evidence, it would have had to been on the day she died. The temperatures in Orlando the week of 6-17 ranged between 72 overnight to a high of 90 degrees. The average temperature was 81 degrees. In the trunk of KC's car the average temperature would have been 125 degrees, going up to almost 140 during the hottest time of the day. Caylee's little body was literally baked for the 2.6 days that she was left in the trunk.

If KC did something that caused Caylee's death, like a drug overdose, or leaving her in the hot car, or even hitting her; what did she hope to gain by placing her in the pool? This wouldn't have any effect on the cause/time of death. She missed that boat the minute she chose not to dial 911. Then there's the sink/float theory, I'm no rocket scientist but even I could figure out roughly how much weight to add to a bag to sink it without actually using using my dead child's body. After 2.6 days in the hot trunk, her little body was very bloated, very wet and well into the stage of early decomposing. Not something she could dip into the family pool and no one would notice.

LCoastMom
11-22-2008, 07:25 PM
CA has only admitted to removing the pants that belonged to KC from the car. Could it be possible that she also removed some of Caylee's clothes at the same time, threw them in the washer along with the slacks of KC's.....and that's why she's saying "there's none of Caylee's clothes missing". I wouldn't put it passed her at all.


Respectfully snipped.

I believe CA said there was nothing of Caylee's in the car, the exception being her doll and a bag with a few diapers. There was no description of this bag, it could be a backpack or it could be the bag the diapers came in. This topic was originally a subject of concern for CA. She said KC always carried snacks and juice for Caylee. Anyone who has ever spent the day with a child being potty trained knows you also carry a change of clothes (at least one set). We would also assume if KC left the house with Caylee, planning on spending sometime with her, at least a few books and toys and possibly a favorite blanket would have been found in the car.

Whatever KC did when she left her parents house, it is very obvious caring for Caylee was not a concern.

Also for everyone worrying about the knife CA found in the car, it was a table knife, the kind used to spread butter on a slice of bread. Not the kind that could be used for cutting anything tougher than a dinner roll.

This was all from the first bond hearing and the Greta interview.

I always assumed when CA said none of Caylee's clothes were missing, the clothes GA said she was wearing when she left the house would not be included in the inventory. The description was generic enough that if they are in the house they could be explained. Caylee undoubtedly had more than one pink top and jean skirt.

GA's ability to recall what Caylee was wearing doesn't surprise me, nor do I doubt him. He was a cop, during his 2nd LE interview he is able to recall what shift he worked on different days, several weeks past without referring back to his notes. He seems to be a detail oriented person.

When he starts saying he can't recall mundane things, then I will question his honesty.

chaingangal
11-22-2008, 09:02 PM
This twit is getting on my last nerve with her little games. Would this alleged statement be considered heresay therfore inadmissible?

jennyb
11-22-2008, 09:09 PM
It was a butter knife because CA said so? No thanks. I'll wait for some real evidence on that.

dsd07
11-22-2008, 09:19 PM
In my opinion, if it truly were an accident, she could or SHOULD have called police- BUT...most likely she was drugging her and when KC found her, she had been deceased for quite some time. As most people know, forensics can usually narrow down the time of death, and she knew too many hours had passed to say a horrible accident had JUST occurred. The police would know right away that this child had been dead for longer than a few minutes or even 20 or 30....KC had to come up with another story...good mothers don't drug their kids. She will never admit to what she did.

kiki the parrot
11-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Sorry, I just can not imagine being more frightened of CA than death row. If this was an accidental drowning due to good mother KC being unattentive, everyone would feel the utmost sympathy for her. I happen to know a couple of people over the course of my life who lost a child in the few minutes they were involved in some other activity. They all loved their children and would never harm them under any circumstance, but in those few minutes, the child died. They all called 911. Everyone felt their pain and sympathized with them, "but for the Grace of God, this could happen to anyone" we said. Tragic.

A couple of the children drowned in a back yard pool. One while mom was arguing with the soon to be ex-hubby, daddy of the child on the phone. One while everyone thought the other one had the child with them. One was napping, woke up and drowned before anyone noticed the child was not in her crib/bed. One was run over by a car as his mother ran after him to save him. One died of heat stroke in the car, while dad went to check on his business and got distracted by employees.

All it took was a few minutes.

Remember the one who left her baby in the baby bath, then went outside to smoke a cigarette and came back to a drowned infant? Initially she tried to lie because she was so guilt ridden over what she did, but soon enough, she told LE what happened.

KC did not call for help. Why? Because her actions were intentional. She did not admit to an accident due to her own negligence. Why? Because Caylee's death was not an accident. It was not an act of negligence or inattentiveness on KC's part. No one would face death row if there was any reasonable explanation of an accidental death and panic taking over.

She can not tell what happened because then she would have to also tell where the body is located and the body will show that the death was a murder, not an accident.

THEY haven't found her clothes? This is LE's fault?

She has a ugly little mind. (JP)

(bold mine) These are unbearable losses, painful even to hear of another parent suffering much less endure oneself. I agree there is nothing re Casey's reaction in the aftermath of a negligence scenario that is remotely how any rational, reasonable, responsible adult would respond. At the same time, if you take an already immature, insecure, narcissistic mother who's been told for three years what an unfit mother she is (and who's btw basically been begging all her life for some limits on her outrageously bad behavior) PRIOR to June 16th; then imagine (it's not hard) like a self-fulfilling prophecy her negligence precipitates her child's death (resulting from poor supervision), compounded by an inability to reach the only ones she trusted in those critical minutes, coupled w increasing paranoia at being caught, I mean this might push someone even w/out a fullblown personality disorder over the edge to something more pathological. In the case of a two year-old in a home w an inadequately childproofed pool, neglect, inattentiveness and poor supervision alone are easily capable of causing a toddler's death. And throughout interviews w LE, and LA, KC continued to say repeatedly how maybe her mother was right, maybe she was an unfit mother afterall, how she knew her mother could never forgive her etc. The question is also whether any neglect rose to the level of culpable negligence--"gross and flagrant" failure to use "ordinary care." And if KC isn't talking or admitting to any knowledge of Caylee's death, this will be a difficult burden for the State. Any admission of neglect would go over infinitely better w LE, but her current fabrication is the only position in which she can maintain a total 'innocent victim' status w her mother: Otherwise, it's obvious to me that anyone facing possible death, attempting to hide anything more than a negligence circumstance, would no doubt have feigned one.

(snipped) "But who could have known that, w/in 24 hours, all your mother's relentless berading and prophecies about your unfit mothering would come true? Were you checking your myspace when you suddenly realized it had been too quiet for too long. Did you wonder where the time had gone as you tore yourself away from the computer to go in search of your normally babbling daughter? Was there a growing sense of unease as you checked every room, calling her name as you saw she wasn't playing in the backyard either? Were you sick w the realization she wasn't in her sandbox... nor the garage... nor playing a game of hide-and-seek, as you approached the pool w dread and terror... Is it here your mind recoiled to see first her backpack, floating on the surface... and then grapples in horror to take in the sight of Caylee's tiny, lifeless body in the bottom of the pool? Were your mother's words deafening in your ears as you asked, how could it have happened?? As you enter the cold water, fully clothed w boots, before you can reach her, was your mind already reeling w horror... was it protesting, but it has only been ten minutes... Or was it flashing back to what was more important than watching your child? Were you wracking your brain w a million questions, like who forgot to close the gate? Hadn't your mother just told you about that? Or something about Caylee soon mastering this task herself? Did you bear the guilt of having attached the ladder yourself--intending to take Caylee in, but becoming distracted; or had she been left unattended long enough that, after wandering back there, she somehow managed to pull the lawnchair over and climb up w/out help, toppling in head first while trying to retrieve a toy...

She is blue, cold and nonresponsive--beyond hope, you despair, of revival or of ever being the same vibrant, alert, active girl. You can already hear your mother's hysterical voice condemning you KC, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE... the guilt and shame so profound it is easier to feel nothing from now on. Did you freeze in your panic, frantically trying to dial while staring in shock and disbelief at your daughter who just minutes ago was so full of life... trying desperately to reach someone, ANYONE, but knowing she will never be the same. You have done the very thing of which your mother has always accused you. Maybe she IS right... You KNOW your mother can NEVER forgive you. She has forgiven so much, but there is no way you can ever make up for this. SHE CAN NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH. This time there is no one who can be trusted, and no one, not even her, who can fix it.

You must hide her then, quickly... in the sandbox... no, the tarp, or wait this smaller storage container, could be dragged behind shrubs toward the rear of the yard... at least until you can figure out some other place, and come back for her. Your clothes are soaked and there is no time to waste, you have to change. You will leave then just like she told you, and stay gone. She will think you have changed, and are no longer depending on them. You just need time... you'll figure everything out later, right now you must hurry to pack a bag of your clothes, which you throw on the front seat, tossing your dripping clothes and boots behind the front seat onto the floor of the car. It is too late--nothing can ever change it, nothing will ever bring her back so you must cut her out of your heart--afterall, everyone lies, everyone dies..." (kiki the parrot)

*Of all preschoolers who drown, 75 percent are missing from sight for five minutes or less.

*Among children ages 1 to 4 years, most drownings occur in residential swimming pools. More than 85 percent of drowning among children ages 1 to 4 are pool related. Most young children who drowned in pools were in the care of one or both parents at the time.

*Barriers such as pool fencing, can help prevent children from gaining access to the pool area w/out caregivers’ awareness. Install a four-sided isolation fence that completely separates house and play area of the yard from the pool area. The fence should be at least 4 feet high. Use self-closing and self-latching gates that open outward w latches that are out of reach of children. Also, consider additional barriers such as automatic door locks or alarms to prevent access or notify you if someone enters the pool area.

*The Association of Pool and Spa Professions (ASSP) recommends being aware of objects (ETA like tables, chairs, or containers) which could allow children to climb over barriers and reach the pool.

*Drowning is a "silent killer," swimming and child medical experts said. It's not at all like Hollywood dramatizations depicting floundering swimmers bobbing to the surface yelping for help for several minutes.

*"Kids slip in the water like a pebble going under," said Dr. Marty Eichelberger CEO of the National SAFE KIDS Campaign. "As they try to get themselves out of the water, they sorta streamline their bodies making this linear form, and it takes them straight to the bottom. They only have a minute or two before they loose consciousness. ... It is a silent thing because they are under the water. They are trying to get themselves to the point where they can breathe, and as they breathe, they just suck in more water."

*The majority of children who survive (92%) are discovered w/in two minutes following submersion, and most children who die (86%) are found after 10 minutes. Nearly all who require CPR die or are left w severe brain injury. Nonfatal drownings can cause brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities including learning disabilities and permanent loss of basic functioning (permanent vegetative state).

*In 2005, of all children 1 to 4 years old who died, almost 30% died from drowning. Although drowning rates have slowly declined fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death for children.

There is nothing to date which connects chloroform to Caylee herself. I enrolled my five year-old daughter in swim lessons this fall after hearing of this case. This is the recommended age for formal instruction, but even swimming classes can not "drown proof" your child. In all honesty, I think CA and GA bear tremendous guilt too, knowing as both homeowners and grandparents, they did not childproof or safeguard their pool w the recommended barriers, safety alarms, and pool fencing to specification. A gate simply isn't enough, and in FL, where many have these backyard killers and these precautions are well known, ALL of the above should be standard procedure--in the event ANY child should wander into a pool owner's yard but particularly in a home w a toddler--which IMO would itself constitute "ordinary care." This, in my estimation, is the reason why A's keep up efforts to collude, protect and deny their daughter's responsibility. Because in a tragic but very real sense, they may realize they share culpability. JMO

http://www.poseidon-tech.com/us/statistics.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/05/27...ing/index.html
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm

LCoastMom
11-22-2008, 09:52 PM
This twit is getting on my last nerve with her little games. Would this alleged statement be considered heresay therfore inadmissible?

'If' Tracy were wearing an illegal wire then LE would have proof, but the statement couldn't be used. If Tracy is wearing a wire and had the judges signature for the tap, then it will be used against her.

My question remains, why did Tracy need immunity before talking to LE?

bookworm474
11-22-2008, 11:41 PM
This comment makes me think it is all a game to her. She's challenging LE IMO. 'They haven't even found her clothes".. also makes me think that they are being overlooked, and in a much easier spot to find then poor little Caylee.

If any of the bones that they have reported that were animal bones, or non related to Caylee, that hole with the stink and trash... how long would it take for testing to come back to determine who those bones (if they were human) belonged to?

I think they should look at Cindy's stash of Caylee's things. She has a shrine to Caylee at the house and Ca insists that the police were not interested in the things in the car that night in July. Casey knows her mother.

technicalconfusion
11-22-2008, 11:46 PM
You must hide her then, quickly... in the sandbox... no, the tarp, or wait this smaller storage container, could be dragged behind shrubs toward the rear of the yard... at least until you can figure out some other place, and come back for her. Your clothes are soaked and there is no time to waste, you have to change. You will leave then just like she told you, and stay gone. She will think you have changed, and are no longer depending on them. You just need time... you'll figure everything out later, right now you must hurry to pack a bag of your clothes, which you throw on the front seat, tossing your dripping clothes and boots behind the front seat onto the floor of the car. It is too late--nothing can ever change it, nothing will ever bring her back so you must cut her out of your heart--afterall, everyone lies, everyone dies..." (kiki the parrot)

And run out to the local Target to get beer and stuff.

concentric
11-23-2008, 01:57 AM
And run out to the local Target to get beer and stuff.

Whoa, I was reading and getting caught up in kiki's scenario and then...you snapped me back to reality right quick!

KC sure lives in "her moment."

technicalconfusion
11-23-2008, 02:31 AM
Whoa, I was reading and getting caught up in kiki's scenario and then...you snapped me back to reality right quick!

KC sure lives in "her moment."

Yea, I got caught up in it too. That kiki gal is one good writer!

JusticeorJustUs
11-23-2008, 03:11 AM
I really hope I'm not wrong here. Maybe it's been posted before. It's 2 a.m. and I need to try to go to sleep. Haven't read all the pages.

IIRC, and that's an if, I actually heard a recording of that statement. It could have been that I just read it, but I remember getting that "my blood ran cold" feeling. Maybe someone else did hear that too, and has a link.

So very telling. My dear God, she's done a lot of research. Clothes don't decompose the way human tissue does. It makes me wonder if she didn't undress poor Caylee before "disposing" (for lack of a better word) of her little body. :(

Keep in mind that I am on medication for my disabilities and it could have just been "hearing" KC's voice spewing those horrid words as I read something, but I really do think I heard an audio on it. :( Please consider that before you go looking for that audio yourselves. I thought I'd seen and heard it all, but that statement really sent me reeling. :(

I do hope those words can be used against her in trial. :(

SeriouslySearching
11-23-2008, 09:10 AM
'If' Tracy were wearing an illegal wire then LE would have proof, but the statement couldn't be used. If Tracy is wearing a wire and had the judges signature for the tap, then it will be used against her.

My question remains, why did Tracy need immunity before talking to LE?Excellent question! Why indeed?! Was it because of the agreement she signed going in? Was it because she learned of information she did not relay to LE? Many questions surround her need for an attorney that I wish LP would go ahead and answer.

tiredofthis
11-23-2008, 09:20 AM
Sorry, I just can not imagine being more frightened of CA than death row. If this was an accidental drowning due to good mother KC being unattentive, everyone would feel the utmost sympathy for her. I happen to know a couple of people over the course of my life who lost a child in the few minutes they were involved in some other activity. They all loved their children and would never harm them under any circumstance, but in those few minutes, the child died. They all called 911. Everyone felt their pain and sympathized with them, "but for the Grace of God, this could happen to anyone" we said. Tragic.

A couple of the children drowned in a back yard pool. One while mom was arguing with the soon to be ex-hubby, daddy of the child on the phone. One while everyone thought the other one had the child with them. One was napping, woke up and drowned before anyone noticed the child was not in her crib/bed. One was run over by a car as his mother ran after him to save him. One died of heat stroke in the car, while dad went to check on his business and got distracted by employees.

All it took was a few minutes.

Remember the one who left her baby in the baby bath, then went outside to smoke a cigarette and came back to a drowned infant? Initially she tried to lie because she was so guilt ridden over what she did, but soon enough, she told LE what happened.

KC did not call for help. Why? Because her actions were intentional. She did not admit to an accident due to her own negligence. Why? Because Caylee's death was not an accident. It was not an act of negligence or inattentiveness on KC's part. No one would face death row if there was any reasonable explanation of an accidental death and panic taking over.

She can not tell what happened because then she would have to also tell where the body is located and the body will show that the death was a murder, not an accident.

THEY haven't found her clothes? This is LE's fault?

She has a ugly little mind. (JP)

It is difficult for me to think about someone intentionally killing their child, but I believe that is what happened in this case. You're right, it wasn't an act of negligence or inattentiveness, because we would have seen some emotion from KC by now. I think she truly didn't care about Caylee and played the role of a good mom for as long as she could stand to play it. When Caylee began to hinder her social life she decided to get rid of her. No emotion and no regrets.

kiki the parrot
11-23-2008, 11:00 AM
It is difficult for me to think about someone intentionally killing their child, but I believe that is what happened in this case. You're right, it wasn't an act of negligence or inattentiveness, because we would have seen some emotion from KC by now. I think she truly didn't care about Caylee and played the role of a good mom for as long as she could stand to play it. When Caylee began to hinder her social life she decided to get rid of her. No emotion and no regrets.

Glad you and Dot won't be on the jury. Before knowing the entirety of facts, before knowing the totality of evidence that LE has and the reason for instance they included lesser neglect and manslaughter charges, before even having a trial--you have smugly and w/out hesitation convicted and hung this woman. Why wait for more facts when you're clearly able to read her every inner motive and intent or were evidently present to witness the entire chain of events. I mean honestly why bother w a trial. JMO

Indigo
11-23-2008, 12:45 PM
Glad you and Dot won't be on the jury. Before knowing the entirety of facts, before knowing the totality of evidence that LE has and the reason for instance they included lesser neglect and manslaughter charges, before even having a trial--you have smugly and w/out hesitation convicted and hung this woman. Why wait for more facts when you're clearly able to read her every inner motive and intent or were evidently present to witness the entire chain of events. I mean honestly why bother w a trial. JMO

Hi kiki,

While Casey is presumed legally innocent(by a jury) until proven guilty, we are probably seeing a good indication of the reasoning process a jury will go through when determining this case. The jury will be allowed to take Casey's actions into consideration as to whether these were reasonable for an accidental death. IMO, her text messages and actions paint a pretty bleak picture for Casey. I believe the jury will weigh Casey's fear of the death penalty (maybe even the electric chair) against her fear of Cindy's reaction to an accidental death. She has such a huge incentive to come clean if this was an accident.

The following quotes from Wikipedia make some good points about presumption of innocence and at times I think this is the way it's viewed on these opinion forums:


"...First, the presumption is not a true presumption at all.[1] (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/l%20cite_note-Mueller-0) An objective observer in the position of the juror would reasonably conclude that the defendant probably committed the crime with which he is charged.[2] (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/l%20cite_note-1) The observable facts clearly support such an inference—the defendant has been charged with a crime, is present in court, represented by an attorney and all the participants in a criminal trial are also present and ready to proceed.[3] (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/l%20cite_note-2)"

"...The phrase that a person is innocent until proven guilty refers to legal as opposed to factual guilt. In every case, the defendant either committed the offense or he did not; a fact that will remain true regardless of whether the jury acquits or convicts the defendant. The phrase means simply that a person is not legally guilty until a jury returns a verdict of guilty—which is little more than a tautology..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

countzero
11-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Glad you and Dot won't be on the jury. Before knowing the entirety of facts, before knowing the totality of evidence that LE has and the reason for instance they included lesser neglect and manslaughter charges, before even having a trial--you have smugly and w/out hesitation convicted and hung this woman. Why wait for more facts when you're clearly able to read her every inner motive and intent or were evidently present to witness the entire chain of events. I mean honestly why bother w a trial. JMO

kiki, the public has but a sliver of information regarding this case. And I seriously doubt that the multitude of jurors from the pool of the population where the trial will eventually be held will have even heard one-third of what is out in the public via the media outlets and/or here in cyberspace.

From personal experience, I live in the DC metro area where the sniper shootings took place back in 02. I was at one of the gas stations where a man was murdered only minutes before it happened. The media surrounding this case was on the tv and in the newspapers every day. Saturation, yet Prince William Co DA were able to find 12 jurors who were not familiar or had not formed an opinion with the case. The case took weeks and delivered a guilty verdict based on the facts presented by the state, not from websites and opinions of posters.

You need to give the citizens of Fla more credit than you have. Not being snary, just honest.

CW
11-23-2008, 02:06 PM
I'm closing this thread and starting a new one.