Did the 'Real Killer' just commit suicide?

[scandi]

Hi,

Never been here before, but I have always held Jon Bennet in my heart. I have also always wondered why the heck LE has never been able to pin a tail on the true killer, with political exceptions of course.

Tonight while checking out groceries, I glanced at a fresh new tabloid cover graced by her beautiful picture, and as I read these words about the real killer having just committed suicide, my jaw must have dropped. From behind a fog of thought I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?

It made me again wonder, with all of the exposure of the case, is there still hope to find out what really happened to this innocent and unsuspecting little girl? Ya Ya, the crime scene was contaminated, and there were some bad eggs in high places of leadership. One brave investigator went out on a limb against them after much study and having much savy, but we still don't really know what happened!

Who really killed Jon Bennet?




Scandi

[Blazeboy3]

Hi,

Never been here before, but I have always held Jon Bennet in my heart. I have also always wondered why the heck LE has never been able to pin a tail on the true killer, with political exceptions of course.

Tonight while checking out groceries, I glanced at a fresh new tabloid cover graced by her beautiful picture, and as I read these words about the real killer having just committed suicide, my jaw must have dropped. From behind a fog of thought I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?

It made me again wonder, with all of the exposure of the case, is there still hope to find out what really happened to this innocent and unsuspecting little girl? Ya Ya, the crime scene was contaminated, and there were some bad eggs in high places of leadership. One brave investigator went out on a limb against them after much study and having much savy, but we still don't really know what happened!

Who really killed Jon Bennet?

Scandi
Interesting thought...what is up with the thought you had "I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?" WOW I'm interested in your reply/response since you stated above you've "Never been here before" ...THANKS! :o :eek: :blushing:

[BrotherMoon]

Watch out for those voices behind the fog, lest they tell you to kill, like they told Patsy.

[Blazeboy3]

Watch out for those voices behind the fog, lest they tell you to kill, like they told Patsy.

Hee Hee ... makes me want to watch "KILL BILL" again... LOL

[Blazeboy3]

Hi,

Never been here before, but I have always held Jon Bennet in my heart. I have also always wondered why the heck LE has never been able to pin a tail on the true killer, with political exceptions of course.

Tonight while checking out groceries, I glanced at a fresh new tabloid cover graced by her beautiful picture, and as I read these words about the real killer having just committed suicide, my jaw must have dropped. From behind a fog of thought I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?

It made me again wonder, with all of the exposure of the case, is there still hope to find out what really happened to this innocent and unsuspecting little girl? Ya Ya, the crime scene was contaminated, and there were some bad eggs in high places of leadership. One brave investigator went out on a limb against them after much study and having much savy, but we still don't really know what happened!

Who really killed Jon Bennet?

Scandi

Interesting thought...what is up with the thought you had "I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?" WOW I'm interested in your reply/response since you stated above you've "Never been here before" ...THANKS! :D

[scandi]

Oh, well I think the 'fog' has been taken a bit too far. What I meant was that the case has always been in the back of my mind. I have never posted on this forum, but when I saw the front page of this tabloid tonight, the verbage about the 'real killer who has now committed suicide' took me off guard. I kept looking at the tabloid, thinking, I wonder if this is really true, when I heard my checker ask me a question, which brought me back to reality! And the next thought that crossed my mind was that hey, the second I get home I'm gonna check out the JBR site to see what this is all about. I was sure there'd be a long thread about it by the time I got home!

That's all. I've never read much about the case, but have watched many specials about it, so am somewhat familiar with the case. And I can't really add anything to your discussion as I havn't studied this case like I have Laci's, where I am familiar with almost every link on the case. :D

But I must say you guys are pretty sharp there - stealth posters to the enth degree! ;) Ya Ya :croc:


Scandi


PS: Did Patsy really mention a 'fog'?

[RiverRat]

Thank you for caring enough to pop over to this forum - perhaps you can help spread the news to the Laci forum that yet another scam is underway in this case. I know that there are others concerned - especially when you remember the fact that one of Scott's defense tactics includes a "Mystery Woman." That PLOY was born right here in the heart of JonBenet's legacy - I knew at the time that it was leading the way for future criminals to get Reasonable Doubt thrown in the case when there was no evidence of it before.

IMO - this latest headline is part of a settlement deal reached between the NE and the Rams. After Victoriously changing the way news is reported by having a Shake-Down Artist keep the press tied up in civil litigation, John Ramsey is now running for political office in Michigan.

As you will notice - this "killer" is only brought to yu by the fine folks at the National Enquirer. Look for DA Mary Keenan to jump on this bandwagon while the Governor of Colorado sits on our request to have her removed from office.

Please help share the word as one day Laci's family may be hearing word of a Surprise Dead Suspect.

RR

[Maikai]

and the National Enquirer---the National Enquirer only does what profits them. They have a lot of resources to throw on a story----and once in a while they get it right. The NE likes to think of themselves as one notch above the rest of them, in getting to the truth. I am surprised they came right out and called Michael Helgoth (aka boots) a killer. Those are pretty strong words, even for a tabloid. They might have more......including the teaser they put in that they can place Helgoth at the house on one occasion.

Boots has been discussed for many years now off and on, because of the stun gun and hi-tec boots obvious is he crime scene photos. Some of you may not like Lou Smit, but he has a history of solving tough crimes, and Boots is on his list of someone to be checked out further. If the perp is dead, it would explain why there hasn't been a confession....why there hasn't been any leaks from the perp in telling someone else. The timing of his death is interesting---maybe ol' Hunter was able to smoke the perp out afterall, with his bluffing. There are questions as to if Boots actually committed suicide---if not, he could have been the weak link, that might blab, and someone wanted him out of the picture.

[Barbara]

and the National Enquirer---the National Enquirer only does what profits them. They have a lot of resources to throw on a story----and once in a while they get it right. The NE likes to think of themselves as one notch above the rest of them, in getting to the truth. I am surprised they came right out and called Michael Helgoth (aka boots) a killer. Those are pretty strong words, even for a tabloid. They might have more......including the teaser they put in that they can place Helgoth at the house on one occasion.

Boots has been discussed for many years now off and on, because of the stun gun and hi-tec boots obvious is he crime scene photos. Some of you may not like Lou Smit, but he has a history of solving tough crimes, and Boots is on his list of someone to be checked out further. If the perp is dead, it would explain why there hasn't been a confession....why there hasn't been any leaks from the perp in telling someone else. The timing of his death is interesting---maybe ol' Hunter was able to smoke the perp out afterall, with his bluffing. There are questions as to if Boots actually committed suicide---if not, he could have been the weak link, that might blab, and someone wanted him out of the picture.

But what about the DNA that doesn't match?

[scandi]

Good Morning!

Well it is obvious that I need to read up on particulars in the case before I can discuss it. :waitasec:

I did start reading threads here last night, and when I read that there were black fibres on Jon Bennet that matched the sweater John was wearing, I wondered why this wouldn't be a major clue.

And then I read a thought that if her brother did this, it would be easy to understand how the P's would rally to do a major coverup to protect him. But what is hard for me to believe is how all of this coverup could be correctly programmed and carried out by her P's starting from the night of the crime itself without something giving them away. The crime had to be an accident, right? So the plan for the coverup, which I then would believe both would be involved in, would have to be an after the fact decision, formulated right there in that home that night. Je ne sait! ;) Maybe John wiped her off with the black sweater? Probably a standard thought among many.

So I'm gonna read today. Darn, Court TV had a show on her recently and now I wish I would have watched it!

See, if I only knew the bare basics of Laci's case and went to the forum to read and learn the facts as they are, it would be hard to find where to start. So many threads are so specific about particular viewpoints and written with the slant of the poster.




Scandi

[Britt]

But what about the DNA that doesn't match?
Yeah, what about that?

For the umpteenth time:

Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said detectives took DNA samples from the person in 1997 and learned it does not match DNA found at the Ramsey crime scene.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/01aboot.html

Without coming up with an accomplice whose DNA DOES match, the Helgoth speculation goes nowhere.

[Ivy]

Originally posted by scandi
But what is hard for me to believe is how all of this coverup could be correctly programmed and carried out by her P's starting from the night of the crime itself without something giving them away.

But JonBenet's parents did give themselves away, not only in some of their staging efforts, but in their lies. For starters, (1) several professional document examiners are absolutely convinced Patsy penned the note (check Shylock's posts for a link to Patsy's handwriting exemplars), (2) the note contains pet phrases used by the Ramsey family, and (3) even though John and Patsy claim otherwise, Burke's voice can be heard on the 911 tape.

John and Patsy made other goofs too, including placing a small strip of tape over JonBenet's mouth to try to make it appear as if the killer had done it to keep her quiet. It was obvious to investigators that the tape had been placed there postmortem. The strip of tape, which was too small to keep any living person's mouth shut, showed no indication that JonBenet had tried to work it off. There was no saliva on it, nor any tooth marks.

imo

[vicktor]

I did start reading threads here last night, and when I read that there were black fibres on Jon Bennet that matched the sweater John was wearing, I wondered why this wouldn't be a major clue.






Scandi

Hi, Scandi

Regarding the black fibers, this idea originated from a question that was posed to John at some point in their interviews. It makes reference to a black shirt that John was wearing the night of the 25th. John answered No, and I believe told the interviewer that he didn't think they had such fibers. The fibers were never brought up by anyone in LE again. (LE can play good cop/ bad cop, tell the suspect they know everything, or that someone else has confessed, or may pose untruthful questions in an attempt to get info.)

There are a lot of people that make good suspects. Using common sense and the evidence at hand will help point to the person most likely responsible.
It includes: unsourced blue fibers and brown fibers on JB, unsourced animal hair on JB's hands. A ransom note.

The person who most likely did it was Gary Oliva, IMO. He was a man in his mid-30's who picked up mail at a church around the corner from the Ramseys. He was unemployed, had served time for an assault on a 7 year old girl, had tried to choke his mother with a telephone cord in anger, had mental problems, was described by a friend as weird, and becoming more sinister.

He ------ was found to have a stun when stopped by the BPD 2 years later.
----------called his friend 3 days after the crime and confessed that he had hurt a child, while sobbing.
----------Has handwriting that is remarkably similar to the RN. Some of his letter combinations found within words are identical to similar combinations found in the RN. In samples of his writings he misspelled words with double consonants 5 times.
----------had a fascination with JB, visited her 1 year memorial, and said that she revealed herself to him upon death.

Everything that is known about Gary Oliva fits what happened and who commited the crime. Except the DNA. Other than a negligible amount of his DNA that might have been under her nails, IMO the DNA isn't his, isn't the killer's.

[Shylock]

Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said detectives took DNA samples from the person in 1997 and learned it does not match DNA found at the Ramsey crime scene.

That's the nice thing about all the Ramsey myths and lies; eventually they go full circle and cancel each other out.

The Ramseys say the killer left behind his DNA - Suspect Helgoth's DNA doesn't match.

The Ramseys say the killer left a Hi-Tech boot print - Suspect Helgoth's boots don't match the print.

[Maikai]

The newspapers are full of false statements attributed to the BPD. Because Beckner says it doesn't match doesn't mean it was even tested. They do obtain blood and tissue samples at autopsy---Helgoth wasn't on their radar screen---so why would they have compared the samples then? How long do they keep the samples? If they had been destroyed what was Beckner going to say when asked the question? If Helgoth was involved, there could have been more than one, and the DNA could be from someone else.

[sissi]

Yep yep..all true,but there is a feel there is something here. Maybe not Helgoth,many believe he was murdered, he may have been a witness or in some way knew the one who did murder Jonbenet. Who knows,even though ya guys think ya do,no one really does, except the one who murdered,or perhaps the person that contracted for it? hmm..
JMO today..it'll change tomorrow

[Spade]

IMO you are misleading Scandi with this post:

"Regarding the black fibers, this idea originated from a question that was posed to John at some point in their interviews. It makes reference to a black shirt that John was wearing the night of the 25th. John answered No, and I believe told the interviewer that he didn't think they had such fibers. The fibers were never brought up by anyone in LE again. (LE can play good cop/ bad cop, tell the suspect they know everything, or that someone else has confessed, or may pose untruthful questions in an attempt to get info.)"

This is the interview excerpt where the fibers came up:

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. Bull****. I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.
9 MR. WOOD: I think you --
10 MR. LEVIN: I am not.
11 MR. WOOD: Yes, you are.
12 MR. LEVIN: And the follow-up
13 question would be --
14 MR. WOOD: Posing the question in
15 light of what I said to you yesterday is
16 nothing more than an attempt to make a
17 record that unfairly, unjustly, and in a
18 disgusting fashion points what you might
19 consider to be some finger of blame at this
20 man regarding his daughter, and you ought to
21 be ashamed of yourself for doing it, Bruce.
22 You knew we weren't going to
23 answer the question. Why don't you just
24 give us the report, and we'll put it out
25 there for someone to look at and tell us
0059
1 what it says and see how fair and accurate
2 you have been.
3 I know why you said what you said
4 yesterday about Patsy and the fibers and John
5 and the fibers. And you know why you did
6 it, Bruce. Because you want this somehow to
7 get out and then people will read that and
8 be prejudiced even further against this
9 family.
10 I just don't know why you want to
11 do it, but I can't stop you.
12 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, if you
13 would like to, I would challenge you to find
14 any article anywhere that I have been quoted
15 as giving an opinion or any statement to the
16 press concerning this case.
17 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
18 quoted. You don't have to be quoted.
19 MR. LEVIN: Or any piece of
20 evidence that I have released.
21 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
22 quoted. You do not have to be quoted.
23 MR. LEVIN: This is a murder
24 investigation, and I am trying to get an
25 explanation, which can be an innocent
0060
1 explanation.
2 MR. WOOD: It could be, but you
3 pose your question as if it's not not.
4 That's what's unfair. Why don't you let us
5 see the report so we can know exactly what's
6 going on, exactly what other fibers were
7 found in that area so that you don't
8 unfairly cast an aspersion through innuendo
9 or suggestion toward this man and his
10 daughter.
11 It seems to me that you should
12 look over and go look, Mr. Wood, we want
13 your client's help, we will give you the
14 test results if it will help get this
15 answered, if it is so important, we'll tell
16 you whether there was another fiber or fibers
17 found that we doen't know where they came
18 from and maybe he can help you with that
19 information, but that is not what you are
20 doing. You are focusing on what you believe
21 is one specific area. And you are doing it
22 in a way that I think is just unfair.
23 Let me just answer your question
24 about you being quoted. Look, John and
25 Patsy Ramsey sat around for three years and
0061
1 did not go public with this case, even
2 though your people were talking to tabloids
3 and writing books and appearing on
4 television. Linda Arndt, Steve Thomas, Alex
5 Hunter.
6 You want to go through the litany
7 of how your people have publicly prosecuted
8 and persecuted this family, and now they
9 decided enough is enough and they tried to
10 go out with me, yes, sir, and them and try
11 to refute some of the absolute lies that
12 have been told about them. Do you have a
13 problem with that?
14 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood.
15 MR. WOOD: Because your people
16 have been saying it. I am not calling your
17 name. I don't know who it is linked to.
18 I don't know who gave the ransom note to
19 Vanity Fair. I'm not suggesting it is you.
20 But don't sit here and tell me that because
21 Bruce Levin hasn't been quoted that this
22 investigation from the Boulder Police
23 Department and the district attorney's office
24 is a lily white when it comes to talking
25 about this case in the media because that is
0062
1 false, and you know it.
2 MR. LEVIN: Now, Mr. Wood, if I
3 can just respond very briefly, and I want
4 Mr. Ramsey to listen to this because it's
5 important, the suggestion is that I am
6 suggesting that the only explanation for that
7 question is sinister. I am a part of a
8 team conducting an investigation into your
9 daughter's death, and an innocent explanation
10 that would help us further that investigation
11 is very welcome. I am not looking for a
12 sinister answer or innocent answer.

EVERYONE who is interested in the truth should read the Atlanta interviews. The fiber evidence is very well documented by LE in both Patsy and John's interviews.

[halycon]

I wouldn't put it past the Ramseys and Lin Wood to have brokered a deal with the tabloids for positive BS stories, in lieu of shakedown money. We'll never know but it makes total sense to me.

[lisafremont]

And what you cannot dismiss is the biggest clue of all and that is the bogus "ransom" letter. You don't have to be an expert to see the similarities between it and Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. And it contained things that only the Ramseys would know. Therefore, IMO, it is a fact that Patsy Ramsey wrote that letter.

Why would Patsy write it to cover up for an intruder? No. She wrote it to cover up for someone in her family. It's quite obvious to me.

JMO

[Britt]

And what you cannot dismiss is the biggest clue of all and that is the bogus "ransom" letter. You don't have to be an expert to see the similarities between it and Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. And it contained things that only the Ramseys would know. Therefore, IMO, it is a fact that Patsy Ramsey wrote that letter.

Why would Patsy write it to cover up for an intruder? No. She wrote it to cover up for someone in her family. It's quite obvious to me.
Exactly, Lisa.

And you don't have to be an expert in psychology to notice the Ramseys' bizarre and evasive behavior, e.g. making flight arrangements to get out of town right after "finding" their dead daughter (their version of the OJ "slow-speed chase"), avoiding police while making a public relations appearance on CNN, playing games from behind their lawyers, refusing to cooperate with police, trying to control police interviews, refusing FBI polygraphs while performing their own PR polygraph stunt with hired help several years after the crime, etc etc etc.

Ramsey-defenders' efforts to justify that behavior (not to mention the contradictory statements, the lies and the chronic amnesia) are laughable. Anyone with any common sense sees that behavior for exactly what it was/is -- obstructing the investigation and evading law enforcement. People with nothing to hide don't do that.

I gotta wonder how Ramsey-defenders would characterize the behavior if the suspect were Helgoth or Linda Pugh or some other non-Ramsey.

[Shylock]

Why would Patsy write it to cover up for an intruder? No. She wrote it to cover up for someone in her family. It's quite obvious to me.

B-I-N-G-O!

[sissi]

Spade...Victor was telling the truth,it is a "good cop bad cop" kind of situation,the things they say are designed to incite anger and emotion, I'm sorry you believe John's fibers were on his child's bottom. This is just kind of crap the LE has propagated. Believe this,when a cop is under oath you can expect,not necessarily get,the truth. Any other time ,as we have witnessed throughout this case,they are human with theories and assumptions to share and most of it is pure garbage. In the early days much of what they "believed" were rumors spread amongst themselves. Sadly many went "down" because of this, without this high profile case they may have kept their careers despite their lack of skills. IMO

[scandi]

Hi,

It seems like such a sad case because nothing seems to go full circle in completing facts. Provable facts that can be used to catch the real killer.

Since I know so little about the case, but over the years have heard a lot about it on the news, it brings some thoughs to mind:

The crime scene was compromised I think - not controlled. Do you think this was a ploy on the part of someone trying to help the killer so he would be impossible to detect?

Is it possible that if the son was involved in her murder, John did pay off city officials to have them throw away evidence or substitue different sperm from that which was really on her? Really, not suspecting it to happen, it might not be that hard to accomplish with the right person doing the exchange.

To me it seems if the sperm {DNA} does not belong to any man involved in the case, it had to be substituted. Except if an intruder did this, but it seems or has been presented as a 'family' crime - someone knew that tucked away little room was down there and so had to be familiar with the home. That says no intruder to me.

It could be possible that one of the family had a friend who had been there before and was caught by one of the family members sexually abusing her. If this person was doing this with the son in attendance they would cover it up simply to pretect their son, right?

The son somehow looks suspicious to me only through possibilities, and was heard on the 911 tape. Did they do a voice test to determine it was him? I don't think he would molest her at 9 years old, but might have helped in aiding the one who did. Then if the parents heard the noise and screams and came running down, John could use his shirt in a moment of panic to wipe her off thinking it would obliterate evidence. Then Patsy could write the note. They would have to get the real killer out of the house quickly, right, to give time to get away as the police would then be called and on their way.

I remember in a special the detective determined the basement window had not been used as a point of entry. Maybe whoever killed her was let in the home by the son!

Gosh, I feel so bad thinking this about a little 9 year old boy. Was he spoiled, revengeful, normal and bright, mean, jealous of Jon Bennet - caught up in peer preasure on learning how to become a man and so used by someone?

So much to learn! Now don't laugh at me ;) I'm a bit worried that all of these thoughts have been hashed and rehashed here years ago! :D


Scandi

PS: Interesting posters over here on this forum :clap:

[Maikai]

But what about the DNA that doesn't match?

Boots died in 2/97......when was he on anyone's radar screen and how long did the coroner's office keep tissue and blood samples to test? Apparently no one, including the Sheriff's Department suspected a connection soon after Boots dies. Did they really compare any DNA?

If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE. The butler door was open, and a perp also left via the basement window. If there was more than one, it might explain two possible exit points.

[Shylock]

Is it possible that if the son was involved in her murder, John did pay off city officials to have them throw away evidence or substitue different sperm from that which was really on her?
Scandi, you have a bit of catching up to do. There was no "sperm" found on her. The "mystery " DNA doesn't have an identifiable source. It just showed up as a shadow when the blood spots in her panties were tested. It might not even exist at all--just being a product of the testing process itself. That's why Dr. Lee said this is not a DNA case.
Or it might be from a worker who made the panties. The police tested new panties right out of the package and found DNA on them.

[Shylock]

Did they really compare any DNA?
If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE.
Somebody at the NE should come up with a good story as to why Patsy wrote the note to help Mr. Boots....

[Tricia]

Scandi, you have a bit of catching up to do. There was no "sperm" found on her. The "mystery " DNA doesn't have an identifiable source. It just showed up as a shadow when the blood spots in her panties were tested. It might not even exist at all--just being a product of the testing process itself. That's why Dr. Lee said this is not a DNA case.
Or it might be from a worker who made the panties. The police tested new panties right out of the package and found DNA on them.


Shylock if anyone can do this you can. Can you find the quote of Dr. Lee's that says, "This is not a DNA case?" I swear I heard him say it but I'll be darned if I can find it.
Thanks
Tricia

[lisafremont]

And it all comes down, in my mind, to the "ransom" letter (hardly a note). If you are convinced, as I am, through my eyes and simple logic, that it was written by Patsy Ramsey, then you cannot possibly believe there was an intruder in the house. In no scenario that makes sense would Patsy write that letter for a stranger. She would only create it as a ruse to protect someone she loves. Therefore, there was no intruder. The perp was named Ramsey, IMO

S-I-M-P-L-E!

[Barbara]

[QUOTE]Boots died in 2/97......when was he on anyone's radar screen and how long did the coroner's office keep tissue and blood samples to test? Apparently no one, including the Sheriff's Department suspected a connection soon after Boots dies. Did they really compare any DNA?

Well, Makai, if we go by your logic, then we don't know for sure that the Ramseys' DNA was compared either. Now you are just grasping at straws, trying to negate the facts by stating they lied about testing it. If they lied about testing it, then it is also possible the Ramseys DNA is in question. You can't have it both ways at your convenience

If it didn't match, then it's still possible Boots could have been involved somehow, according to the NE.

Now we are going by the NE statements? Now we have one NE article supporting the Ramseys and they are credible? So what about the other umpteen NE stories implicating the Ramseys? They are either credible or they aren't. Again, you can't have it both ways


The butler door was open, and a perp also left via the basement window. If there was more than one, it might explain two possible exit points


So now we have a team of murderers with nothing more than degraded DNA left behind? We also don't have any reason to believe that the basement window was used to enter or exit. Lou Smit's performance was poor at best and only proved that it would be impossible to enter or exit through there without leaving anything behind.

BTW, the perp/s never left at all

Try as you might, this story is bullchit no matter how hard it is spun!

[Maikai]

Well, Makai, if we go by your logic, then we don't know for sure that the Ramseys' DNA was compared either. Now you are just grasping at straws, trying to negate the facts by stating they lied about testing it. If they lied about testing it, then it is also possible the Ramseys DNA is in question. You can't have it both ways at your convenience

I don't know if Beckner lied about testing it----I'm suggesting that just because it was printed in the paper doesn't mean it's true. How long does the coroner's office hang on to blood and tissue samples? If Helgoth wasn't even on the radar screen after he committed suicide, there would be no reason to compare his DNA with that found at the crime scene. So when would Beckner have tested it? They didn't even send the DNA found at the crime scene to Cellmark until 2/97. They had the CBI results and it was either inconclusive or they didn't like the results (ie: no Ramsey DNA). The newspaper articles at the time had the police ready to make an arrest when they got the DNA results back--they were convinced it was JR's. There's no doubt they tested the Ramseys DNA----not so sure on Boots.


Now we are going by the NE statements? Now we have one NE article supporting the Ramseys and they are credible? So what about the other umpteen NE stories implicating the Ramseys? They are either credible or they aren't. Again, you can't have it both ways

I'm not saying the NE is credible....but once in a while they get it right.

So now we have a team of murderers with nothing more than degraded DNA left behind? We also don't have any reason to believe that the basement window was used to enter or exit. Lou Smit's performance was poor at best and only proved that it would be impossible to enter or exit through there without leaving anything behind.

BTW, the perp/s never left at all

Try as you might, this story is bullchit no matter how hard it is spun!

Some of the DNA was degraded---that's not surprising, because it degrades faster when exposed to other bodily fluids. They do have good DNA with l0 markers---just a shame that it wasn't send to the databases until this last December. You can't argue with Smit's track record in solving cold cases or expertise in organizing evidence. There were signs of an intruder at the basement window--he doesn't have all the answers, but clearly there were signs of an intruder.

[Barbara]

"..I don't know if Beckner lied about testing it----I'm suggesting that just because it was printed in the paper doesn't mean it's true."

One would think that blatantly lying regarding a personal quote from Beckner would not go without a response from LE and a retraction for something so important. There are lots of things printed in the paper that may or may not be true. However, I don't recall your statement when the papers printed articles that favored the Ramseys. How do we know that those things are also true? Again, double standards Maikai. If for no other reason than to placate the RST, I am sure the DNA was tested.

"...You can't argue with Smit's track record in solving cold cases or expertise in organizing evidence. There were signs of an intruder at the basement window--he doesn't have all the answers, but clearly there were signs of an intruder."

When you pull apart Smit's record, while good, it's not as impressive as you might like to think. Regardless, there are NO signs of an intruder at the basement window. Think about it logically.

WHY WAS THE FILM OF SMIT'S ENTERING THE WINDOW EDITED? WHY DIDN'T WE SEE THE WHOLE THING FROM START TO FINISH?

There are no signs of an intruder, save for Smit's, try as he might, poor demonstration. It's not clear at all.

The only people who have ALL the answers are the Ramseys and they ain't sayin'!

[Ivy]

We didn't see the footage of Smit entering the window because we would have seen his hiney scooting across the window sill, disturbing dust and debris, the same way the intruder's hiney would have, had there really been an intruder.

The fact that the footage was edited proves that Smit can't handle the truth, and that even though, as he's been quoted as saying, he'd slap handcuffs on Jesus Christ if that's where the evidence led him in a case, he will fudge the evidence if that's what it takes to exonerate John and Patsy Ramsey.

imo

[Barbara]

We didn't see the footage of Smit entering the window because we would have seen his hiney scooting across the window sill, disturbing dust and debris, the same way the intruder's hiney would have, had there really been an intruder.

The fact that the footage was edited proves that Smit can't handle the truth, and that even though, as he's been quoted as saying, he'd slap handcuffs on Jesus Christ if that's where the evidence led him in a case, he will fudge the evidence if that's what it takes to exonerate John and Patsy Ramsey.

imo

Let's face it. While Smit may have started this crusade with the best of intentions, he now is totally caught up in it. This is a man who also, like the Ramseys, perpetuates his Christian beliefs. However, let's not forget that in order to keep evidence later used in his powerpoint presentation, he had to cut a deal with Hunter. He would keep his mouth shut about Hunter's wrongdoings, and Hunter would drop the case against Smit. This deal is a fact. There is no denying this. Why do I bring this up?

Because a GOOD Christian and a GOOD cop would never cut a deal to benefit himself at the expense of letting wrongful activities go unpunished and unreported. So much for Lou Smit's Christianity and law enforcement morality.

Bottom line: Lou is a cop and they don't like to look foolish and be proven wrong. He backpedaled on the stun gun already, and would be a total laughing stock if he fessed up now that he is in error on many more issues.

It's too late for Lou.

[Barbara]

It seems there is an answer after all to my initial question: From Webbsleuths:


Jameson quotes me:

Barbara asked, "WHY WAS THE FILM OF SMIT'S ENTERING THE WINDOW EDITED? WHY DIDN'T WE SEE THE WHOLE THING FROM START TO FINISH?"

Her answer:

Time - - time - - time. the documentaries work hard to get in as much information as they can in the allotted time.

What a croc! When you are presenting what is labeled as EVIDENCE of an intruder, you cut time somewhere else, not during evidence presentation.

That is not the right answer, so we must assume there is another explanation.

[Barbara]

AND ANOTHER GEM in response to why we haven't heard about Helgoth as a VIABLE suspect in more than 7 years:

Jameson:
You may not have heard much about Helgoth over the past 7 years but I have. Many times from several sources.

Are you really expecting the forum public to consider what information and sources YOU have over LE? Who are you kidding? Where were your protestations when his DNA didn't match?

[Maikai]

One would think that blatantly lying regarding a personal quote from Beckner would not go without a response from LE and a retraction for something so important.

Lolololol....when did the BPD ever ask for a retraction to somthing that was printed? Particularly if it was harmful to the Ramseys? If the blood and tissue samples had been discarded when all this came to light, what was Beckner going to say that the BPD wouldn't get slammed for?

[Barbara]

Lolololol....when did the BPD ever ask for a retraction to somthing that was printed? Particularly if it was harmful to the Ramseys? If the blood and tissue samples had been discarded when all this came to light, what was Beckner going to say that the BPD wouldn't get slammed for?

It was never disputed period. There were enough talking head shows where this point would have been made, had it not been true. But hey, whatever works for you and the others Maikai.

Rationalization is everything I guess.

[sissi]

I hesitate to ask Scandi to "catch up",since we don't really know which of the "facts" thrown at us are true. Early on,the sperm story was sent out to the media,the source was the BPD,it was later "fixed". I can't imagine how such an error was made, was it an early wrong assumption ,followed by later errors that weren't "caught" and retracted? Or was it a truth they wanted to take away from the public?
Who knows,it's not among the current "things we think we know" ,however,much of what we think we know are lies.
JMO

[Ivy]

The rumor about semen being found on JonBenet's body probably started when Arndt thought she saw indications of it. Although tests later showed no semen was present, rumors die hard, even when the truth has been publicized...which it was, thanks to LE, immediately following the tests.

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 3: (excerpt)

"In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, used a black florescent light the view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas of the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid."

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant (excerpt)

"Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs from the child's body. (According to examination conducted at the Colorado Bureau of Investigations, no semen was located on the body, panties, or clothing of JonBenet Ramsey)."

~~~
imo

[scandi]

Morning,

I read several threads here yesterday, and naturally found many of my thoughts addressed! :rolleyes: I was horrified to learn the condition of her body, the feces scenario in the home, how John had moved her body in the wine cellar and about the Inuoye teen. I only read his name once, and am curious if he was checked out thoroughly?

I am amazed at the continual stalemate status of this case! The evidence is not clear or can not be connected difinitavely, like the note and the Det Arndt saying she spotted semen, and it turned out to be blood { I read there was blood on her upper thighs}. Almost like something could have been switched? Would someone dare do that, especially on the same day or within such a short time of the body being found?

The body wasn't found for what, 12 or so hours? Was there a roar about why the parents didn't know where she was all that time? Crazy, huh!

Hi SieSie - Looked for you on chat yesterday as I saw your name up, but must have missed you! :blowkiss:



Scandi

[RiverRat]

"The body wasn't found for what, 12 or so hours? Was there a roar about why the parents didn't know where she was all that time? Crazy, huh!"

The phoney ransom note deafened any roar there may have been. The home was searched top to bottom numerous times before JonBenet was finally found. Locked in a room that Fleet White had already checked - unbeknownst to John Ramsey. She was not there one minute - there the next.

And for that little fact - Fleet White and his family have suffered handsomely. Thank God that it was these two that had to have the misfortune of being whom the Ramseys turned to for help.......no one else has the tenacity, heart, intelligence, and good moral conscience necessary for filling the bill.

RR

[scandi]

Thanks RiverRat,

Interesting. I read that she was first placed in a niche back in the wine celler then moved out into the room. I've also read way before that Det Arndt was not effective at all in her investigation. Is that true. It does look as though the investigation was terribly botched. Have you heard about a special piece of evidence they have that they are keeping tight to the vest?

Scandi

[sissi]

No I haven't heard there was a piece of evidence that would point to an intruder that they were holding "close to their vest". Why would they? Any detail that should have pointed toward an intruder would have been dismissed ,overlooked,maybe even tossed.
Kenady claims Helgoth was "knitting something",this is the rumor as I understand,and a piece of such "knitting" was found with the body. This sounds off to me,as I don't see anything in the warrant that would indicate such an item, if it wasn't taken under warrant, "JUST HOW WOULD KENADY KNOW THERE WAS SUCH AN ITEM ON THE BODY"? Bunk? or he was there?
Jameson,as you know I have respect for much of what she has done throughout the years, and have only disagreed with one action, believes Kenady is a believeable character, I think she should be careful,he may be a con,and who knows of a con that isn't able to present himself as educated and wellspoken?
IMO

[tipper]

Scandi,

This is a link to CrimeLibrary. It can give you a synopsis of the case.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html?sect=7

[Ivy]

I seem to recall that the JonBenet case info at CrimeLibrary is quite pro-Ramsey.

imo

[newtv]

Yep yep..all true,but there is a feel there is something here. Maybe not Helgoth,many believe he was murdered, he may have been a witness or in some way knew the one who did murder Jonbenet. Who knows,even though ya guys think ya do,no one really does, except the one who murdered,or perhaps the person that contracted for it? hmm..
JMO today..it'll change tomorrow
remember the window washer who was likely the real murderer of mrs sam sheppard?/ there is always a possibility that something happened outside of our comprehension- I have never believed that patsy or john had anything to do with this murder - nor do they know the person..= burke, etc.
It doesnt add up and now even when the Boulder LE say it isnt them, some still find them guilty until proven innocent- a grand jury will indite a ham sandwich but didnt indite the ramseys-its like every other case-if you are a NG thats where u will be now- if you are a G, then u will never change your mind even if someone confesses..
Its really never going to solve the case-the ramseys have been focused on to the exclusion of all others- even if u do not think they are innocent, it still seems important to consider other possibilites-just to see if something new emerges- but so many of you have burned them at the stake without a jury of their peers even being involved- I think that is wrong-they have not even been charged..there was no conclusive statement that patsy wrote the note- she could not be excluded 100 percent..the idea that she killed her daughter because she wet the bed or whatever excuses are given is erroneous- no one has ever even been able to put this togehter in the form of an inditement- so the boulder authorities are in a conspiracy to protect the ramseys when they ruined them and still found nothing to go with?? What about the podssibility that there is nothing to go with because there is nothing to go with?

[SisterSocks]

But what about the DNA that doesn't match?


No DNA rice already cooked ---Henry Lee

[scandi]

Scandi,

This is a link to CrimeLibrary. It can give you a synopsis of the case.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html?sect=7



Hey thanks Tipper! I would like to learn all that I can, as though I actually have time for this. But you know, I'm finding now that everytime I come to the Laci forum, I also come over here! LOL

By the way, I think I did learn a lot by reading back on these threads.


Scandi

[Cherokee]

... It doesnt add up and now even when the Boulder LE say it isnt them ...

Boulder LE never said "it isn't them" or that the Ramseys were cleared. Not even Boulder DA Mary Keenan is willing to say that.



IMO

[Cherokee]

Hey thanks Tipper! I would like to learn all that I can, as though I actually have time for this. But you know, I'm finding now that everytime I come to the Laci forum, I also come over here! LOL

By the way, I think I did learn a lot by reading back on these threads.


Scandi

Hey Scandi,

If you really want to read a great website with information regarding the JBR case go to:

www.acandyrose.com

It will take you awhile to sift through it all, but it's well worth it.