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View Full Version : New Timeline/Theory Based On Body Discovery??


karenz
12-14-2008, 08:00 AM
I just listened to LP's theory of the timeline (died on 16th, KC hid body when GA hit trunk for gas cans). I was wondering if we could run a thread about your theories of the timeline based on the discovery of the body and perhaps give supporting ping/text evidence.

I do not necessarily agree with Padilla. I also wondered about the borrowing of the shovel. Any WS'ers want to run down their theories? I am trying to form mine at this time and would love some ideas...

IWannaKnow
12-14-2008, 08:58 AM
Hey Karenz, how does the 2.6 days of decomp play into LP's theory? 16th to the 24th is 8 days, right? I don't understand how that could work. I still think she died on the 16th, and she dropped her on the 18/19th (when backed into garage), 2.6 fits with this nicely. No? She might not have been under the sand box, maybe she dropped her behind the fence (with the pool ladder), covered her up with something and went on her way until she decided she had to do something. Did the dogs look behind the fence or just in the backyard?

I still believe she didn't want George to see evidence (stains) in the trunk. Still, five days, trunk should smell really bad................IDK.

BonKai
12-14-2008, 09:06 AM
I was thinking perhaps she put Caylee there on June 23rd when she ran out of gas and was walking on Chickasaw Trail to her house and waiting for TonE to pick her up, etc...but that also seems like too many days for Caylee to be in the trunk. I'm still going over the docs again.

Good thread....I'm curious to read everyone's ideas.

charo
12-14-2008, 09:12 AM
ok would the pings from her home, be the same tower that would ping where the body was on Surburban and Chickasaw Trail? I imagine so- right? I read her phone pinged from those 2 roads on the 23rd- just read it yesterday on one of the threads- Could she have killed her on the 15th-16th- sprayed her with bug spray to slow up the decomposition and dumped her on the 23rd? Or killed her on the 16th and dumped her on the 18th-19th? I've been tossing the dates in my head for months now and trying to come up with it myself but its very hard to know what she did

Lady Sleuth
12-14-2008, 09:15 AM
I will be watching this thread carefully to see what all of you are able to come up with.
You all simply amaze me at times with how you are able to research and put things together.

Lady Sleuth
jmho

77NancyDrew
12-14-2008, 09:18 AM
I have been saying this all along, KC and Caylee left the house on the 15 after the fight , KC druged Caylee left her in the trunk and stayed at TL house . Came back to the car whenever the next morning found Caylee deceased. Drove to her home GA was there so she left, started to panic that afternoon when she made the flurry of phone calls. Then said whatever , just left Caylee in the trunk went on with her life:furious:.
On the 18th she came home backed in borrowed the shovel from the nebghiour, burried Caylee by the sand box , left, that gives the 2.6 days decomp in the car.
On the 23rd when she ran out of gas she went and got Caylee out of the yard placed her in the wooden area and then called TL.
JMO

Lexington
12-14-2008, 09:20 AM
Killed on 15th/16th. Placed in trunk. Returned to house on 18th, borrowed shovel with intention to bury in backyard. Saw the difficulty in doing so. Wrapped the body in plastic bag, secured tightly with duck tape to prevent leakage. Returned to trunk of car. Left there until the 24th until close call with George. Dumped body in place found.

I'm still having a little trouble with George's role in this. Did he see or smell the body on the 24th and she took off in her car? Was that the day he followed her but lost her? When the car was found at Amscot was she still in the tire well? Is that why he did not call the police? Did he dispose of the body on his way to work that day?

charo
12-14-2008, 09:21 AM
Ok- think about this- what date did Hurricane Faye come through? Seems crazy she would put the body 40 seconds from the house knowing the first place they would look is near the home- could she have heard the hurricane was coming and knew that area flooded and dumped her the day before the hurricane came through? I am going to go find what exact date that hurricane hit

tehcloser
12-14-2008, 09:25 AM
I have been saying this all along, KC and Caylee left the house on the 15 after the fight , KC druged Caylee left her in the trunk and stayed at TL house . Came back to the car whenever the next morning found Caylee deceased. Drove to her home GA was there so she left, started to panic that afternoon when she made the flurry of phone calls. Then said whatever , just left Caylee in the trunk went on with her life:furious:.
On the 18th she came home backed in borrowed the shovel from the nebghiour, burried Caylee by the sand box , left, that gives the 2.6 days decomp in the car.
On the 23rd when she ran out of gas she went and got Caylee out of the yard placed her in the wooden area and then called TL.
JMO


Her phone pings do not show her at Tony's then. Nor does his statement.

charo
12-14-2008, 09:26 AM
well forget that idea- Hurricane Faye was August 21st. Back to square one- I cant get the ping maps- so I cant research each day she was at the home or by Surburban and Chickasaw unless someone posts it in writing

77NancyDrew
12-14-2008, 09:30 AM
Her phone pings do not show her at Tony's then. Nor does his statement.

ok then i stand corrected but she could have turned her phone off and stayed somewhere elese.JMO
plus lets not forget noone has ever lied in this case:rolleyes:

BonKai
12-14-2008, 09:31 AM
I have been saying this all along, KC and Caylee left the house on the 15 after the fight , KC druged Caylee left her in the trunk and stayed at TL house . Came back to the car whenever the next morning found Caylee deceased. Drove to her home GA was there so she left, started to panic that afternoon when she made the flurry of phone calls. Then said whatever , just left Caylee in the trunk went on with her life:furious:.
On the 18th she came home backed in borrowed the shovel from the nebghiour, burried Caylee by the sand box , left, that gives the 2.6 days decomp in the car.
On the 23rd when she ran out of gas she went and got Caylee out of the yard placed her in the wooden area and then called TL.
JMO

Good theory. One that makes sense to me.

I wish we had more info on what was found in the bag with the remains that connected it to the house. Besides the obvious (trash bag and duct tape), was it sand? Dog hair? A receipt?

I would also like to know what they took from the house that we don't know about. Did they take soil samples from where the dogs hit in the backyard?

So many questions!!

Skully
12-14-2008, 09:38 AM
My theory hasn't changed a whole lot, I still feel she died June 16 at or around 3:01. She died in the A's house. I think she was druged so KC could yak on the phone and get on the computer. I think Caylee overdosed.(I had a Dream, Caylee kept saying 3-0-1 over and over that could have been TOD.)
I think she put her in the trunk and drove to the O house; stored her at the barn on the Oviedo property. I think this because it was something I got early on in a meditation, vision, that Caylee was in a house, and they were trespassing. I saw horses in the dream, but since learned that the stables have been torn down around 2-3 years ago. The house was available from April to Aug 31th. I think she though about where she could hid her, drove around the 17 in TonE's jeep so no one would see her car. Went back to the barn, the next night; maybe wrapped her in the trash bag then and duct taped it, She may have removed the cloths and taped the mouth to stage a kidnapping theory. If she placed her in the truck and the bag leaked on the 18-19 that would explain the 2.6 days of decomposition and the stain. She drove to Suburban drive put her in the woods hoping she would be found so her story would sound like a kidkapping. She didn't count on huricane Faye. That was a an Act Of God, because the water protected the bag, preseverd tissue, animials didn't get it, and how that guy decided to go to that VERY SPOT is beyond me. I don't think any one else moved the body there, it would be bad for the defense to find it before trail. JMO

I also feel she did bury cloths on the A's property, but GA found them when he put the pavers down. There are still lots of things, I believe that she had to get rid of, like diapers, ointments, hair brush, toothbrush, toys, shoes, all the stuff she took with her.

tehcloser
12-14-2008, 09:39 AM
ok then i stand corrected but she could have turned her phone off and stayed somewhere elese.JMO
plus lets not forget noone has ever lied in this case:rolleyes:

Oh we have had way more lies than truths. But cell phone records don't lie. Go to the stickys and look at the pings....interesting stuff there, along with the calls she was making at the time.

77NancyDrew
12-14-2008, 09:40 AM
Good theory. One that makes sense to me.

I wish we had more info on what was found in the bag with the remains that connected it to the house. Besides the obvious (trash bag and duct tape), was it sand? Dog hair? A receipt?

I would also like to know what they took from the house that we don't know about. Did they take soil samples from where the dogs hit in the backyard?

So many questions!!

I would imagine they had taked soil samples from the back yard , the shovel, and now the site where the remains were found.
My theory is they took the pestide tanks and the pool chemicals because they all ready found cloroform in the trunk, and there was clothing in the bag, the vacum cleaners because the GP's clean KC car after they got it back.
But I would also love to know what was in that bag besides the bag itself and the tape.

maureenv
12-14-2008, 09:45 AM
Killed on 15th/16th. Placed in trunk. Returned to house on 18th, borrowed shovel with intention to bury in backyard. Saw the difficulty in doing so. Wrapped the body in plastic bag, secured tightly with duck tape to prevent leakage. Returned to trunk of car. Left there until the 24th until close call with George. Dumped body in place found.

I'm still having a little trouble with George's role in this. Did he see or smell the body on the 24th and she took off in her car? Was that the day he followed her but lost her? When the car was found at Amscot was she still in the tire well? Is that why he did not call the police? Did he dispose of the body on his way to work that day?

I think you have the answer.

77NancyDrew
12-14-2008, 09:48 AM
Oh we have had way more lies than truths. But cell phone records don't lie. Go to the stickys and look at the pings....interesting stuff there, along with the calls she was making at the time.

:blowkiss:I think i will go back over them now instead of just skimming them . I feel like LP making all these theorys.lol * I love LP so i wasn't low blowing him

tehcloser
12-14-2008, 09:52 AM
:blowkiss:I think i will go back over them now instead of just skimming them . I feel like LP making all these theorys.lol * I love LP so i wasn't low blowing him

lol....I know I come up with what I believe to be the perfect theory....then read something else and chit, out the window it goes!!!!!
Thank goodness we have all this info here...........:woohoo:

momtective
12-14-2008, 09:54 AM
I have been saying this all along, KC and Caylee left the house on the 15 after the fight , KC druged Caylee left her in the trunk and stayed at TL house . Came back to the car whenever the next morning found Caylee deceased. Drove to her home GA was there so she left, started to panic that afternoon when she made the flurry of phone calls. Then said whatever , just left Caylee in the trunk went on with her life:furious:.
On the 18th she came home backed in borrowed the shovel from the nebghiour, burried Caylee by the sand box , left, that gives the 2.6 days decomp in the car.
On the 23rd when she ran out of gas she went and got Caylee out of the yard placed her in the wooden area and then called TL.
JMO

So, how did she dig her up on the 23rd...no mention of borrowing a shovel on that date. Freshly dug ground in the A backyard would have been obvious to LE. I don't believe Caylee was ever buried in the backyard. If she drowned, which I don't think she did, then after she was removed from the pool traces of decomp would have been present. My best guess is that the decomp found in the backyard was transferred there from the gas cans that had been in KC's trunk. Maybe George just sat them in the backyard and put the in the shed later. Maybe he sat them there long enough to go back into the house and get the key to the shed so he could unlock it and put them away.
I'm thinking Caylee was murdered sometime during the late night of the June 15 or early morning of June 16 and was placed in the trunk at that time. Say she died at 11:00pm on the 15th, at 11:00pm on the 16th would be 1 day, 11:00pm on the 17th would be 2 days. 11:00 AM on the 18th would have been 2.5 days. 12:00 noon on the 18th 2.6days, backs into garage, places Caylee's body in bag (I believe it was a space bag which was then placed in a trash bag). Borrows shovel on June 18th around 1:00pm 2.7 days (margin of error very slight) buries Caylee.
I believe KC was checking on Caylee on the 23rd when Chris S saw her on Suburban Dr. and she supposedly ran out of gas.

charo
12-14-2008, 10:01 AM
I am having a very hard time believeing she left Caylee in the back yard at any point for fear CA or GA would find her- Cindy said they go out there to go in pool or dig the bamboo up- I dont think she would be that stupid to leave the child in the back yard but then again i could be wrong-

charo
12-14-2008, 10:03 AM
And again they had 2 dogs that they let out the back door to do their duty- If her body was back there I am sure those dogs would of sniffed that odor and would start digging at it and disturb it-

Spitfire4ever
12-14-2008, 10:06 AM
Killed on 15th/16th. Placed in trunk. Returned to house on 18th, borrowed shovel with intention to bury in backyard. Saw the difficulty in doing so. Wrapped the body in plastic bag, secured tightly with duck tape to prevent leakage. Returned to trunk of car. Left there until the 24th until close call with George. Dumped body in place found.

I'm still having a little trouble with George's role in this. Did he see or smell the body on the 24th and she took off in her car? Was that the day he followed her but lost her? When the car was found at Amscot was she still in the tire well? Is that why he did not call the police? Did he dispose of the body on his way to work that day?


I agree with this theory except I'm leaning towards KC leaving her on the 23rd because that is the day that she ran out of gas in that area and TL and KC broke into the shed. JMO

rozey
12-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Mom, When did KC buy the crosses? Was it around the 23rd?
Something that still sticks with me is her statement of 'sitting on the steps' along with the GP's discussion of the pool ladder being left out. Were these the steps she was sitting on?

tehcloser
12-14-2008, 10:11 AM
So, how did she dig her up on the 23rd...no mention of borrowing a shovel on that date. Freshly dug ground in the A backyard would have been obvious to LE. I don't believe Caylee was ever buried in the backyard. If she drowned, which I don't think she did, then after she was removed from the pool traces of decomp would have been present. My best guess is that the decomp found in the backyard was transferred there from the gas cans that had been in KC's trunk. Maybe George just sat them in the backyard and put the in the shed later. Maybe he sat them there long enough to go back into the house and get the key to the shed so he could unlock it and put them away.
I'm thinking Caylee was murdered sometime during the late night of the June 15 or early morning of June 16 and was placed in the trunk at that time. Say she died at 11:00pm on the 15th, at 11:00pm on the 16th would be 1 day, 11:00pm on the 17th would be 2 days. 11:00 AM on the 18th would have been 2.5 days. 12:00 noon on the 18th 2.6days, backs into garage, places Caylee's body in bag (I believe it was a space bag which was then placed in a trash bag). Borrows shovel on June 18th around 1:00pm 2.7 days (margin of error very slight) buries Caylee.
I believe KC was checking on Caylee on the 23rd when Chris S saw her on Suburban Dr. and she supposedly ran out of gas.


He saw her on Chicasaw and it reads like it was July 15th....perhaps he changed it later?

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0926/17564652.pdf

pgs 12 and 13

jandkmom
12-14-2008, 10:16 AM
Would this fit the timeline...They had the big fight on the 15th, maybe she left so abruptly that she either left her cell phone at the house or left the charger so her battery went dead, therefore, no pings away from the house. She left Caylee in the trunk because she was so mad and felt like her family was more worried about Caylee leaving than KC leaving. Caylee was still alive the next morning and went back to the house to get their clothes, thereby GA noticing what they were wearing when they left since there had been the big fight. She puts some of their clothes in the backpacks, pretending to leave for work. She keeps putting Caylee in the trunk but uses too much choloroform or xanax, or whatever she was using, and it kills Caylee. She puts her in a bag in the trunk and can't figure out what to do with her. On the day she ran out of gas when she calls Tony she throws the body on the side of the road afraid that Tony might offer to take off the trash if he smells it. Then she is afraid to go back there and get the bag because someone coming to and from school might see her.

txanmom
12-14-2008, 10:18 AM
here is mine

june 15th CA and Ka have a huge fight, Ka storms to her room with Caylee, she cannot sleep all night she is so angry and keeps looking at little Caylee and starts to really see her as the problem she is. she has been thinking/fantasizing for months (rem. march computer searches) about how to rid herself of this problem and is probably in some heightened emotional state and doesn't sleep much of the night(still in her parents home, though).

june 16th Ka and Caylee leave house so Ka can keep up her pretense of working to GA she goes down the street to her childhood hangout(and later the dumping ground for the body) and waits it out until she thinks parents are all gone. she does some quick phone calls (flurry) to establish everyone is gone. around 3pm she returns to the home. she takes caylee into the yard and tells her "would you like to swim?" puts her in little swim diaper sets up the pool ladder and tells her "I just have to get something, go ahead to the pool" she then goes to shed, gets a shovel and as caylee is walking towards the pool she knocks her hard to the back of the neck, poor caylee never saw her coming. she then wraps duct tape around her head in the hopes of making this look like the kidnapping she has fantasized about happening. wraps the body in a towel or sheet and puts her in the trunk of her car until she can think of a good hiding place. she then kind of forgets about her for a day or two

june 18th realizes that she really needs to get this over with, maybe smell is starting so she goes to parents house and the shed is locked and she cannot get the shovel so she borrows it from the neighbor (car backed into garage) and uses it to put caylees body into a trash bag (she doesn't want to have to touch the icky dead body and she cannot trash her just rolled up in a blanket). she returns the shovel. at this point either she is tired or pissed off about the whole think inconveniencing her so she probably didn't dump it yet, she probably goes to a "neutral place" to not have to think about this just now.

june 24th, smell is bad and she has to get rid of it/dad almost gets too close to car (maybe he didn't smell anything because it hadn't really gotten that strong since it was in the sealed garbage bag with other things thrown on top). she immediately panics and thinks of a comforting place from her own childhood - the hangout near the school. she races down the street afraid her father might actually follow her, she pulls quickly into the brush with her car jumps out opens trunk and tries to fling the bag as far as she can but it's heavy and she is in a hurry (maybe thinking she can come back to it later to bury it, etc...) in her panic, she makes a horrible mistake and tears the bag a little and fluids leak out into trunk carpet.

june 27th she doesn't know why but the car still stinks horribly, she has to get rid of it so she dumps it next to a stinky dumpster and hopes it will be stolen or towed. she acts as though she is trying to retrieve it by running around town and collecting gas and gas cans (since everybody keeps asking her/bugging her about the car) while secretely checking the parking lot from time to time to see when it is finally gone. it's gone, problem solved UNTIL her mother comes into play july 15th.

have no idea how chloroform would play into this, y'all tweak this a little, pretty please?

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I believe there might be a thread on this in the stickies. The phone pings and GA's testimony actually support what LP is saying. Let me go to the calendar and bring the info here. BRB.

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 10:24 AM
Here is the info from the 24th. This is the gas can day. GA had gone to the bank and was home by 2:30PM. theory is after the close call with GA she drove down the street and dumped Caylee.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&day=2008-6-24&c=4

KC's Cell Pings 6/24/2008Calendar: Caylee Anthony CaseQuietStorm (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=35009) 06-24-2008 *The times shown may change, depending on DST settings

12:40 am - cell tower pings near AL's apt until . . .
8:04 am - cell tower pings continue near AL's apt until . . .
2:42 pm - cell tower pings near the Anthony home until . . .
2:59 pm - cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail until . . .
3:12 pm - cell tower pings near AL's apt until past midnight into the next day

*All distance calculated by Lat/Long.
*Address converted from Lat/Long at Steve Morse's
website http://www.stevemorse.org/jcal/latlon.php
*All pings detailed on AT&T cellsite report for KC's cell phone; posted on WS by Musikman

charo
12-14-2008, 10:27 AM
I believe Txanmoms theory is VERY close to what happened- very- I cannot copy and paste it- sorry-

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 10:32 AM
I believe Txanmoms theory is VERY close to what happened- very- I cannot copy and paste it- sorry-

The dates fit. The only thing about the chloroform I feel sure about is it wasn't used as a babysitter. It only lasts about 20 minutes and there are easier substances to use. The chloroform has me stumped.

charo
12-14-2008, 10:59 AM
chlorform only lasts 20 minutes? well then I am stumped too- maybe it wasnt even used for Caylee at any point- remember LP mentioned it can be used for sexual acts- and I did look it up and it is true- maybe she bought that for herself? See everytime we think we got it figured, theres another bridge to cross- grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr And even after the trial we will probably be trying to figure it out because she will never admit to all the facts and what she did. She will stick to the nanny got her

Marina2
12-14-2008, 11:27 AM
I think she killed her on the night of the alleged big fight or in the early morning hours of the 16th. After the fight, KC stormed out of the house leaving Caylee behind. CA called KC and demanded she get back home at once, she had a daughter to take care of and how dare she just leave and expect CA to watch her. KC returned extremely angry at having been choked by CA and having to return to the house to watch Caylee. KC's rage grew until she took it out on Caylee.

George didn't see Caylee wake up for breakfast on the 16th because she was already dead. He saw them leave but not in the normal way as he stated. KC was dressed for work and Caylee was wrapped in her bedsheet as KC carried her to the car pretending that she was still asleep.

After leaving, KC removed Caylee's clothes because they were the pajamas that CA had put on her the night before, wrapped her in the sheet again and placed her in the trunk where she remained until decomposed for 2.6 days (June 18th.)

On the 18th, she returned to the house, borrowed a shovel and buried her in the yard. Sometime between the 20th and the 23rd she removed Caylee from the yard, placed her in the trash bag and wrapped it tightly with duct tape. She may have placed her in the blue cooler seen taken after the search as well. Pesticide may have been sprayed on Caylee and in the area that she was buried in. KC left with Caylee all wrapped up and ready to dispose of.

On the same day and with all this going on KC forgot to look at her gas gauge and ran out of gas while driving around looking for a place to dump her. This happened where she was found. KC may have been heading toward the end of the road to dump her but never made it that far. She dumped Caylee at that spot and called Tony for gas (couldn't risk leaving the car at that spot for even a minute). The bed sheet is what the investigators saw that prompted the search warrant. Caylee's matching linens, comforter and pillow/sham were taken into evidence (seen in bag of evidence placed in CSI vehicle).

The third time she backed into the garage KC removed the cooler, took it to the backyard, rinsed it out in the pool and placed it where it belonged (shed or garage). KC thought the smell in the car would go away after dumping Caylee but by the 25th it had become worse so the excuses to Amy began. Car abandoned or simply ran out of gas at the Amscot two days later.

For me this theory answers several questions I have had.
1. Why did she kill her? Rage after the argument and Caylee being the reason CA was able to demand KC's presence at the house.
2. Why didn't GA see her early on the morning of the 16th instead of at 12:50? She was already dead.
3. Why would he lie about the circumstances of their leaving? He realized after the fact that Caylee was dead as KC carried her to the car wrapped in her sheet. He told a different story to throw LE off as to where the crime occurred.
4. Why did KC remove Caylee's clothes? She didn't want her found in the pajamas that CA put on her.
5. Why the sloppy disposal of Caylee? Panicked when she ran out of gas.
6. What did investigators see that immediately prompted a search of the house and the declaration of it being a crime scene? The sheet that matched Caylee's bed ensemble.
7. Why is CA so ardently defending and covering for KC now? She feels guilt for starting the fight, the choking, and insisting that KC return to the house to care for Caylee. She feels Caylee would be alive had she not done this. Also explains why she won't admit to a fight; everything was normal...no reason for KC to kill her daughter.

I know this theory will change as I remember different facts and new ones come to light but for now it's all I can wrap my head around.
R.I.P. dear little Caylee. :blowkiss:

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 11:28 AM
chlorform only lasts 20 minutes? well then I am stumped too- maybe it wasnt even used for Caylee at any point- remember LP mentioned it can be used for sexual acts- and I did look it up and it is true- maybe she bought that for herself? See everytime we think we got it figured, theres another bridge to cross- grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr And even after the trial we will probably be trying to figure it out because she will never admit to all the facts and what she did. She will stick to the nanny got her

I have scratched my head over the chloroform. Maybe KC was huffing it? IDK. First off it would be a hassle to make. Lots of other easier stuff out there to get high off of or put your kid to sleep. Using it as a cleaning agent doesn't seem right either. If you weren't wearing an industrial mask, it would knock you out. And it doesn't seem to have any properties that would clean anything. One thing you can use it for, is to kill someone.

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 11:31 AM
I haven't read anyone else's new revised theories but here's mine:

I think that Casey and Cindy had a blow-out on June 15th when Cindy arrived back home from Mt. Dora with little Caylee. We've heard from two different people about the alleged 'choking' incident. I think one of two things then happened:

1. Casey took Caylee and left the A family home in a fit of anger. She took her Sunfire and drove around the block or went to Lee's house as her cell phone showed the calls were still hitting from towers in that area all night long. I would love to know the content of THOSE text messages. Maybe she thought she could go to TonE's but for some reason she did not. Under this scenario, I think Casey killed Caylee on the 15th by chloroforming her and putting the duct tape around her mouth.

OR

2. Casey stayed at the Anthony family home, angry and texting TonE all night. In the morning, GA sees Casey and Caylee before he leaves for work. Casey "pretends" to leave for work but instead drives down the block to wait for George to leave. Casey returns to Hope Spring and murders Caylee. She places Caylee in the backyard and tries to figure out what to do--perhaps stage a drowning. When no one returns her calls she stuffs Caylee in the trunk and goes on to TonE's.

Either way, a decomposing Caylee was in the Sunfire trunk at the point of 2.6 days. I think this dovetails nicely with the many neighbor reports of Casey going to the A family home and shiftily backing the Sunfire into the garage, asking to borrow the shovel, etc. Casey was not sure of what do to with little Caylee and likely considered burying her under the playhouse but she abandoned that idea. At some point, I think on the 19th or 20th, Casey laid Caylee on the ground (wrapped in the black garbage bag), moved the pool ladder, and used it to hop the Anthony family's backyard fence. She then dropped Caylee over the side, jumped the fence and walked the short distance down to the woods to dump her body. Of course, Casey could have very well DRIVEN her Sunfire over to the spot as well, take your pick. However, I keep coming back to all the dogs alerting at various spots in the backyard, the moved pool ladder, and curious dogs outside the fence in the back. All this can be explained by a jump and dump over the A family fence with the decomposing body.

By the 20th, I believe Caylee was dumped at her current location. Casey did have a bit of leakage in the trunk from Caylee's 2.6 day stay there and that really began to stink. Casey tried to mask the odor with various agents and settled on putting a garbage bag in the trunk for a decoy.

T

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 11:44 AM
I do not necessarily agree with Padilla. I also wondered about the borrowing of the shovel. Any WS'ers want to run down their theories? I am trying to form mine at this time and would love some ideas...

Yeah, I do not agree with Padilla's timeline either (or the one he was spouting regarding Caylee being in the trunk past the 20th) as it's not supported by the scientific evidence.

T

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 11:48 AM
I have been saying this all along, KC and Caylee left the house on the 15 after the fight , KC druged Caylee left her in the trunk and stayed at TL house ...

The only problem with this portion of the theory is that Casey's cellphone was pinging from the three towers surrounding the A family home (and Lee's home too) all during the early morning hours of June 15th into June 16th. She was talking and texting TonE which she certainly would not need to be doing if she was in the same room with him in Winter Park. :)

Vanpet
12-14-2008, 11:55 AM
He saw her on Chicasaw and it reads like it was July 15th....perhaps he changed it later?

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0926/17564652.pdf

pgs 12 and 13

That is the same date I have in my notes as well 15th July at 9:30 am is when Chris S. saw her running down Chickasaw Trail and called her and asked her if that was her, and she said No, I guess it is fair to say she frequented the area where Caylee was found. So I guess denying the fact of her involvement will be hard to prove by the defense?
Vanpet

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 11:56 AM
So, how did she dig her up on the 23rd...no mention of borrowing a shovel on that date. Freshly dug ground in the A backyard would have been obvious to LE. I don't believe Caylee was ever buried in the backyard. .

Didn't even GA say himself (on Greta?) that he saw some suspicious disturbances in the backyard that he and Cindy checked out. Also, they moved a bush in the backyard as well (i.e., dug up and moved an entire bloomin' bush!).

I think the circle of dirt under the playhouse that is clearly marked with orange or red criminalist flags in the chopper photos which were taken over the A family house is pretty obvious! :) Methinks some diggin' had gone down in that yard, maybe not a LOT but an attempt at the very least.

karenz
12-14-2008, 11:58 AM
lol....I know I come up with what I believe to be the perfect theory....then read something else and chit, out the window it goes!!!!!
Thank goodness we have all this info here...........:woohoo:

That is what happens to me. I think the "X" factor here is GA. If the gas can incident was catalyst for the dumping then GA would have HAD to smell the car. Would he lie? I don't know...

The body dumping for me seems to be the day she texted Amy she got rid of the smell.

karenz
12-14-2008, 12:00 PM
I haven't read anyone else's new revised theories but here's mine:

I think that Casey and Cindy had a blow-out on June 15th when Cindy arrived back home from Mt. Dora with little Caylee. We've heard from two different people about the alleged 'choking' incident. I think one of two things then happened:

1. Casey took Caylee and left the A family home in a fit of anger. She took her Sunfire and drove around the block or went to Lee's house as her cell phone showed the calls were still hitting from towers in that area all night long. I would love to know the content of THOSE text messages. Maybe she thought she could go to TonE's but for some reason she did not. Under this scenario, I think Casey killed Caylee on the 15th by chloroforming her and putting the duct tape around her mouth.

OR

2. Casey stayed at the Anthony family home, angry and texting TonE all night. In the morning, GA sees Casey and Caylee before he leaves for work. Casey "pretends" to leave for work but instead drives down the block to wait for George to leave. Casey returns to Hope Spring and murders Caylee. She places Caylee in the backyard and tries to figure out what to do--perhaps stage a drowning. When no one returns her calls she stuffs Caylee in the trunk and goes on to TonE's.

Either way, a decomposing Caylee was in the Sunfire trunk at the point of 2.6 days. I think this dovetails nicely with the many neighbor reports of Casey going to the A family home and shiftily backing the Sunfire into the garage, asking to borrow the shovel, etc. Casey was not sure of what do to with little Caylee and likely considered burying her under the playhouse but she abandoned that idea. At some point, I think on the 19th or 20th, Casey laid Caylee on the ground (wrapped in the black garbage bag), moved the pool ladder, and used it to hop the Anthony family's backyard fence. She then dropped Caylee over the side, jumped the fence and walked the short distance down to the woods to dump her body. Of course, Casey could have very well DRIVEN her Sunfire over to the spot as well, take your pick. However, I keep coming back to all the dogs alerting at various spots in the backyard, the moved pool ladder, and curious dogs outside the fence in the back. All this can be explained by a jump and dump over the A family fence with the decomposing body.

By the 20th, I believe Caylee was dumped at her current location. Casey did have a bit of leakage in the trunk from Caylee's 2.6 day stay there and that really began to stink. Casey tried to mask the odor with various agents and settled on putting a garbage bag in the trunk for a decoy.

T

Bolded by me

I know I could find it on here somewhere but I am lazy... do we know if LE has copies of those texts?

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 12:09 PM
Yeah, I do not agree with Padilla's timeline either (or the one he was spouting regarding Caylee being in the trunk past the 20th) as it's not supported by the scientific evidence.

T

IMO, sealing the body in a container or bag at 2.6 days would explain alot.

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 12:10 PM
And we have KC's text to AH on the 24th that "She got rid of the smell"

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 12:11 PM
I think she killed her on the night of the alleged big fight or in the early morning hours of the 16th. After the fight, KC stormed out of the house leaving Caylee behind. CA called KC and demanded she get back home at once, she had a daughter to take care of and how dare she just leave and expect CA to watch her. KC returned extremely angry at having been choked by CA and having to return to the house to watch Caylee. KC's rage grew until she took it out on Caylee.

George didn't see Caylee wake up for breakfast on the 16th because she was already dead. He saw them leave but not in the normal way as he stated. KC was dressed for work and Caylee was wrapped in her bedsheet as KC carried her to the car pretending that she was still asleep.

After leaving, KC removed Caylee's clothes because they were the pajamas that CA had put on her the night before, wrapped her in the sheet again and placed her in the trunk where she remained until decomposed for 2.6 days (June 18th.)

On the 18th, she returned to the house, borrowed a shovel and buried her in the yard. Sometime between the 20th and the 23rd she removed Caylee from the yard, placed her in the trash bag and wrapped it tightly with duct tape. She may have placed her in the blue cooler seen taken after the search as well. Pesticide may have been sprayed on Caylee and in the area that she was buried in. KC left with Caylee all wrapped up and ready to dispose of.

On the same day and with all this going on KC forgot to look at her gas gauge and ran out of gas while driving around looking for a place to dump her. This happened where she was found. KC may have been heading toward the end of the road to dump her but never made it that far. She dumped Caylee at that spot and called Tony for gas (couldn't risk leaving the car at that spot for even a minute). The bed sheet is what the investigators saw that prompted the search warrant. Caylee's matching linens, comforter and pillow/sham were taken into evidence (seen in bag of evidence placed in CSI vehicle).

The third time she backed into the garage KC removed the cooler, took it to the backyard, rinsed it out in the pool and placed it where it belonged (shed or garage). KC thought the smell in the car would go away after dumping Caylee but by the 25th it had become worse so the excuses to Amy began. Car abandoned or simply ran out of gas at the Amscot two days later.

For me this theory answers several questions I have had.
1. Why did she kill her? Rage after the argument and Caylee being the reason CA was able to demand KC's presence at the house.
2. Why didn't GA see her early on the morning of the 16th instead of at 12:50? She was already dead.
3. Why would he lie about the circumstances of their leaving? He realized after the fact that Caylee was dead as KC carried her to the car wrapped in her sheet. He told a different story to throw LE off as to where the crime occurred.
4. Why did KC remove Caylee's clothes? She didn't want her found in the pajamas that CA put on her.
5. Why the sloppy disposal of Caylee? Panicked when she ran out of gas.
6. What did investigators see that immediately prompted a search of the house and the declaration of it being a crime scene? The sheet that matched Caylee's bed ensemble.
7. Why is CA so ardently defending and covering for KC now? She feels guilt for starting the fight, the choking, and insisting that KC return to the house to care for Caylee. She feels Caylee would be alive had she not done this. Also explains why she won't admit to a fight; everything was normal...no reason for KC to kill her daughter.

I know this theory will change as I remember different facts and new ones come to light but for now it's all I can wrap my head around.
R.I.P. dear little Caylee. :blowkiss:

I think your theory works well. The only problem I have is with the decomp at 2.6 days in the Sunfire's trunk. If we are positive that a well-wrapped plastic bag would keep both fluids and chemical fumes/gases from escaping the bundle then I can buy fully into this theory. I just assumed that while fluids could be well-contained, that the body's decomp gasses would be harder to contain, would have escaped, and would have shown up when tested at the Tennessee lab.

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 12:14 PM
Bolded by me

I know I could find it on here somewhere but I am lazy... do we know if LE has copies of those texts?

I know there were calls; I think there were texts. If they exist LE has them. We do not as they were not released in the Sunshine Law dump.

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 12:18 PM
That is what happens to me. I think the "X" factor here is GA. If the gas can incident was catalyst for the dumping then GA would have HAD to smell the car. Would he lie? I don't know...

The body dumping for me seems to be the day she texted Amy she got rid of the smell.

I totally agree with you about the "X" factor. :)

I wish we knew for certain what really went on at Hopespring on June 16th at around 12:50. Logic would dictate that Caylee definitely would have been up and around for HOURS by this time. She would have eaten breakfast and be hankering for lunch!

Theonly1
12-14-2008, 12:20 PM
I have scratched my head over the chloroform. Maybe KC was huffing it? IDK. First off it would be a hassle to make. Lots of other easier stuff out there to get high off of or put your kid to sleep. Using it as a cleaning agent doesn't seem right either. If you weren't wearing an industrial mask, it would knock you out. And it doesn't seem to have any properties that would clean anything. One thing you can use it for, is to kill someone.

I had read early on that chloroform will melt plastic and is kept in glass jars. I wonder what she used to contain the chloroform mixture. If I'm remember correctly, lightweight plastic will eventually be melted by chloroform (but don't quote me on that).

Marina2
12-14-2008, 12:31 PM
I think your theory works well. The only problem I have is with the decomp at 2.6 days in the Sunfire's trunk. If we are positive that a well-wrapped plastic bag would keep both fluids and chemical fumes/gases from escaping the bundle then I can buy fully into this theory. I just assumed that while fluids could be well-contained, that the body's decomp gasses would be harder to contain, would have escaped, and would have shown up when tested at the Tennessee lab.

I thought this as well but I considered the time it takes to drive to the dumping location (40 seconds) and the possibility that she was wrapped well and maybe placed in the cooler. The leakage (if any) or gases would be a negligent amount. What leaked into the car during the 16th through the 18th remained and continued to permeate the air.

One problem I have is with the cooler being used. I wonder if or why the dogs didn't hit on it. They did take it as evidence for some reason.

Jolynna
12-14-2008, 04:02 PM
ok then i stand corrected but she could have turned her phone off and stayed somewhere elese.JMO
plus lets not forget noone has ever lied in this case:rolleyes:

Casey was texting and talking on her phone all night into the wee hours of the morning. She didn't have her phone turned off.

She pinged from the area of her parent's house.

Jolynna
12-14-2008, 04:28 PM
I think Casey had been fantasizing about killing Caylee before. Thus the missing kid and neck breaking searches.

If you google neck breaking and chloroform the 1st site that comes up is "how to kill a rabbit". On that site people suggest ways to humanely kill the rabbit without leaving blood. Neck breaking, chloroform & drowning are all suggested as humane ways.

I think Casey chloroformed Caylee to knock her out and then killed Caylee with at least one (or maybe both) of the other methods. That would explain the hints from LP about Caylee being in the pool and why Caylee was undressed. Or maybe the neck breaking didn't quite work as expected. So Casey took off Caylee's bloody clothes and then went to drowning.
(How to Kill a Rabbit) http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/BeginnersArticles/01/i/01224C4A30.html

I am thinking it was a site like this that got Casey started searching for chloroform. I STRONGLY disagree with Dr. Baden about anyone thinking chloroform is commonly used among young people to make kids sleep. I challenge Dr. Baden to find ONE person that has ever used chloroform regularly for a BABYSITTER.

There are more sites like the "how to kill a rabbit". Chloroform is listed over and over as the best way to KILL not babysitting.

SuziQ
12-14-2008, 06:26 PM
I had read early on that chloroform will melt plastic and is kept in glass jars. I wonder what she used to contain the chloroform mixture. If I'm remember correctly, lightweight plastic will eventually be melted by chloroform (but don't quote me on that).

Well that's interesting too. Now see how unstable the stuff is? The only thing you can count on is it will kill. I kinda wondered if she didn't, way back when, lift the stuff from the tatoo shop she went to, and then did the searches to see what she had. Somewhere along the line, the stuff spilled into the trunk. Tat and piercing shops are not legally allowed to use Chloroform, but they do. Especially shops that do body modification/mutilation prodedures. They are supposed to instruct thier clients to get a novacaine shot from a doc, then come to thier appointment. So if chloroform was lifted no one would report or admit to that.

ThoughtElf
12-14-2008, 06:40 PM
Does anyone recall offhand what was the first date that KC complained about the smell?

JWG
12-14-2008, 07:14 PM
Here is a possible timeline based on my research to date and the latest facts regarding the discovery of little Caylee's remains:

June 15

Father's day visit to Cindy's father. Last known videos and pictures of Caylee taken. Fight with Cindy sometime after Cindy and Caylee return. Presumably Cindy grabs KC by the throat or neck during the argument.

I have thought "what could have made Cindy that angry"? I am wondering if somehow Cindy discovered that KC had on at least one prior occasion placed Caylee in the trunk to sleep. That certainly would rise to the level of anger described by relatives. It would also help support rumors that the DA is thinking about charging the Anthony's with obstruction. See my post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3051839&postcount=70).

June 16

KC and Caylee do spend the night at parents. See post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3033912&postcount=94). According to George, the two leave right before he leaves for work. Cell pings indicate they did not leave the general area. They may have gone to Lee's, or perhaps even the playground at the Hidden Oaks Elementary School. However, computer forensics show she was back at her parents around 2 PM.

Caylee dies around 3:30 PM. I am heavily criticized by some for this but I still believe the death was accidental. I think it could have been a drowning in the swimming pool.

Another possibility I have considered of late is, if KC had used chloroform in the past on Caylee - which is a distinct possibility based on my hunch as to what the previous day's argument with Cindy was about - that she may have chloroformed Caylee when they returned to the home.

Here is the scenario:

They return from the playground (I think the playground is more plausible than Lee's). Caylee goes off to play or watch TV while mom is on the phone and computer. At some point near 3 KC is on phone with JG - JG hears Caylee in the background (note, I am not talking about the call later in the month when he thought he heard Caylee - this is a different, documented call). Caylee is probably over-tired and needs her nap, but won't go down.

KC gets a rag full of "momma's helper" to get her to go to sleep. The amount of chloroform is enough to kill Caylee, but it is probably not immediately noticed by KC.

She calls Tony around 3:35 to make arrangements for the evening, likely telling him she will head over when mom arrives to watch Caylee. She then checks on Caylee and finds her dead. She probably notices because the baby's bladder and/or bowels emptied upon death.

I do not now believe that Casey's calls around 4:00 PM to GA and CA were to report an emergency. I think they were to find out how much time she had to get out before someone showed up. This would be the behavior of a narcissistic person - me first.

I can see her running through the house grabbing some clothes and stuff and throwing it all in the trunk. She also grabs some of Caylee's stuff so that mom will know that Caylee is spending the night with her. That stuff and Caylee all go into the trunk.

On her way up to Tony's she texts him, probably to say her mother showed up early so she is on her way.

June 17

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. I am guessing that she did not move the body out of the trunk, but largely tried to figure out what to do. May have loaded additional stuff into the car.

June 18

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. This time she is thinking "well, I will just bury her in the backyard and no one will be the wiser." Shed is locked so she goes to borrow a shovel from neighbor BB.

Carries body to backyard, places it on ground where a month later cadaver dogs give inconsistent hits. Digging proves to be too difficult in several spots she tries, so she returns body to trunk. Shovel goes back to BB.

June 19

A possible detailed timeline is discussed here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3021836&postcount=67). However, here is a synopsis of what I am thinking occurred:

Checks on Caylee outside Tony's and notices stain on trunk liner and fluids seeping from Caylee's mouth. This probably is due in part to all the movement of the body in the backyard on the previous day. Realizes she has a mess to deal with and starts out toward parent's home. Changes mind and goes to store near JBP to buy duct tape and garbage bags.

Transfer of body into the bag may have occurred almost anywhere, but I think Casey knew the time needed to move things into the bag, tape everything, etc would take time and attract attention, so she needed a secluded spot. Some have suggested the Oviedo home and it certainly can fit within the allowable time. One ping at approximately 3:05 supports but does not prove a trip to that home. See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3025410&postcount=71).

Puts tape on baby's mouth to stop fluid from seeping. This is the only "problem" she sees, only problem she "solves". Places body in a trash bag along with pillow and sheet she took from home on 16th to make it look like she was spending the night somewhere. Seals bag with duct tape as well. I think this explanation is quite plausible. I don't think KC would kill outright, but once faced with a dead Caylee her narcissistic personality did not care what happened to the body.

Note: the 2.6 days determined by the forensic testing was based on the decomposition stain in the trunk and not on the odor analysis. I have asserted that because the weather during this time was quite a bit cooler than what was assumed by the body farm, 3.0 days is an appropriate length of time to use. Once the body was placed in a leak-proof container such as a sealed garbage bag, the chemical composition of the stain would not change.

June 20

Trip to parents in an attempt to clean the stain. Body remains in trunk.

June 21 - 22

Body remains in trunk.

June 23

KC runs out of gas en-route to parents and places call to Tony. Tony picks her up somewhere on Chickasaw near parent's. Both drive to parent's, Tony breaks lock off shed per KC's instruction and takes gas cans. Tony drives her back to car and watches her put gas in tank. It appears she does not return to parents from there.

See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2870752&postcount=2) and here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3015936&postcount=7).

June 24

Drives to parent's home and pulls forward into garage (per GA). Recall that the previous three times she backed in (per BB). This means to me she was there for some reason other than to deal with the body.

George is home and surprises her. Wants to get a steel wedge out of her trunk - not because he needs it but because he suspects KC stole his gas cans. KC rushes out to the car ahead of him and hands him the cans.

The incident has really spooked KC. On her way back to Tony's she turns right on Suburban instead of left. She pulls to the side of the road next to the woods. Making sure no one is looking, she pops the trunk, takes the bag out, walks to the edge of the woods, and tosses it down the small slope into the brush.

She then heads back to Tony's.

June 25 - 26

No visit to parents. Notices a strong smell beginning to form in car.

June 27

Smell has become quite unbearable. Tony is going to expect her to take him to airport in her car, but that will not be possible with the smell. Goes to parent's house knowing she is low on gas to get some things (also hoping to get the car to run out of gas). Checks mail and finds Cindy' JCP card. Takes that, activates it, takes food, and heads to Tony's.

On her way back the smell is so bothersome she texts Amy about it, but describes it as being due to a dead squirrel being under her car in the past. Runs out of gas at Amscot. Calls Tony who picks her up.


I do not believe she ever visited the site of the body after June 24.

Valrico Analyzer
12-14-2008, 10:32 PM
So, how did she dig her up on the 23rd...no mention of borrowing a shovel on that date. Freshly dug ground in the A backyard would have been obvious to LE. I don't believe Caylee was ever buried in the backyard. If she drowned, which I don't think she did, then after she was removed from the pool traces of decomp would have been present. My best guess is that the decomp found in the backyard was transferred there from the gas cans that had been in KC's trunk. Maybe George just sat them in the backyard and put the in the shed later. Maybe he sat them there long enough to go back into the house and get the key to the shed so he could unlock it and put them away.
I'm thinking Caylee was murdered sometime during the late night of the June 15 or early morning of June 16 and was placed in the trunk at that time. Say she died at 11:00pm on the 15th, at 11:00pm on the 16th would be 1 day, 11:00pm on the 17th would be 2 days. 11:00 AM on the 18th would have been 2.5 days. 12:00 noon on the 18th 2.6days, backs into garage, places Caylee's body in bag (I believe it was a space bag which was then placed in a trash bag). Borrows shovel on June 18th around 1:00pm 2.7 days (margin of error very slight) buries Caylee.
I believe KC was checking on Caylee on the 23rd when Chris S saw her on Suburban Dr. and she supposedly ran out of gas.

If BJB could confirm pings releated to this theory, I believe it is exactly right.

But the pings would have to line up. Does anyone have the pings for the tower or towers relating to the A home and body discovery point?

flnana
12-14-2008, 11:02 PM
The dates fit. The only thing about the chloroform I feel sure about is it wasn't used as a babysitter. It only lasts about 20 minutes and there are easier substances to use. The chloroform has me stumped.

________
IMO, I still think Zanex was the "nanny". It was used for long term "babysitting", such as parties, nights with bfs, etc. Maybe the chloroform was so that she wouldn't struggle when she did whatever she did to her. 20 minutes would be plenty of time for that and would make it easier for KC.

momtective
12-14-2008, 11:09 PM
So, how did she dig her up on the 23rd...no mention of borrowing a shovel on that date. Freshly dug ground in the A backyard would have been obvious to LE. I don't believe Caylee was ever buried in the backyard. If she drowned, which I don't think she did, then after she was removed from the pool traces of decomp would have been present. My best guess is that the decomp found in the backyard was transferred there from the gas cans that had been in KC's trunk. Maybe George just sat them in the backyard and put the in the shed later. Maybe he sat them there long enough to go back into the house and get the key to the shed so he could unlock it and put them away.
I'm thinking Caylee was murdered sometime during the late night of the June 15 or early morning of June 16 and was placed in the trunk at that time. Say she died at 11:00pm on the 15th, at 11:00pm on the 16th would be 1 day, 11:00pm on the 17th would be 2 days. 11:00 AM on the 18th would have been 2.5 days. 12:00 noon on the 18th 2.6days, backs into garage, places Caylee's body in bag (I believe it was a space bag which was then placed in a trash bag). Borrows shovel on June 18th around 1:00pm 2.7 days (margin of error very slight) buries Caylee.
I believe KC was checking on Caylee on the 23rd when Chris S saw her on Suburban Dr. and she supposedly ran out of gas.

If BJB could confirm pings releated to this theory, I believe it is exactly right.

But the pings would have to line up. Does anyone have the pings for the tower or towers relating to the A home and body discovery point?

Originally posted by BB12---respectfully snatched and drug over here to keep from running back and forth for timeline and ping info...TIA BB12

June 18 –Heavy rain- 12:10 am - 2:11pm-afternoon = TonE apartment. 10:52am-KC texts Cindy's cell phone. There was another spike in calls to her parents, six in 45 minutes during the early afternoon. Three calls were made to her parent's home phone, two to her mom's cell phone and one to her dad's cell phone from 12:34 to 1:11. 2:05pm-KC texts TonE. Travel time- could be in the Anthony home as early as 2:25pm. 2:42 pm – 4:11 pm- George or Lee’s home— Casey is observed backing her car up into her parent’s garage-from 3-4pm- (Casey attempts to bury Caylee?) Casey borrows a shovel from the neighbor. (BB). Caylee is not seen that day by the neighbor. 2:47pm TonE texts KC. 3:42pm KC calls TonE 2 min. 4:10pm KC calls Amy H. 4:13pm-KC calls Lexus Dealership again. 4:27pm incoming call from Maria K. lasted 1 minute. Then drove to TonE apartment. 4:27 pm - 6:57 pm- back at TonE apartment. 4:28pm-No phone activity until 6:39pm KC calls Cindy A's cell- 2.6 min. No other cell activity after 6:57 pm until 8:32am. 13+ hr. gap Casey text Troy B. about going to Fusion Page 1326 Lines 9 Troy B. Interview with LE on 7/25/2008 .
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...32587&t=h&z=11 Cell phone pins/map
Ordered Pizza from Papa John’s – one can assume it is this pizza box that ended up in the trunk.

Bolded by me...So the time may be off by a bit but I think the above theory is pretty close.

ThoughtElf
12-15-2008, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by BB12---respectfully snatched and drug over here to keep from running back and forth for timeline and ping info...TIA BB12

June 18 –Heavy rain- 12:10 am - 2:11pm-afternoon = TonE apartment. 10:52am-KC texts Cindy's cell phone. There was another spike in calls to her parents, six in 45 minutes during the early afternoon. Three calls were made to her parent's home phone, two to her mom's cell phone and one to her dad's cell phone from 12:34 to 1:11. 2:05pm-KC texts TonE. Travel time- could be in the Anthony home as early as 2:25pm. 2:42 pm – 4:11 pm- George or Lee’s home— Casey is observed backing her car up into her parent’s garage-from 3-4pm- (Casey attempts to bury Caylee?) Casey borrows a shovel from the neighbor. (BB). Caylee is not seen that day by the neighbor. 2:47pm TonE texts KC. 3:42pm KC calls TonE 2 min. 4:10pm KC calls Amy H. 4:13pm-KC calls Lexus Dealership again. 4:27pm incoming call from Maria K. lasted 1 minute. Then drove to TonE apartment. 4:27 pm - 6:57 pm- back at TonE apartment. 4:28pm-No phone activity until 6:39pm KC calls Cindy A's cell- 2.6 min. No other cell activity after 6:57 pm until 8:32am. 13+ hr. gap Casey text Troy B. about going to Fusion Page 1326 Lines 9 Troy B. Interview with LE on 7/25/2008 .
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...32587&t=h&z=11 Cell phone pins/map
Ordered Pizza from Papa John’s – one can assume it is this pizza box that ended up in the trunk.

Bolded by me...So the time may be off by a bit but I think the above theory is pretty close.

I think it is very plausible, Momtective. If you shift the TOD forward from 11:00 pm of the 15th to the early hours of the 16th, then I think the time, pings and her activities fit. Good job.

CBTampa
12-15-2008, 07:01 AM
Here is a possible timeline based on my research to date and the latest facts regarding the discovery of little Caylee's remains:

June 15

Father's day visit to Cindy's father. Last known videos and pictures of Caylee taken. Fight with Cindy sometime after Cindy and Caylee return. Presumably Cindy grabs KC by the throat or neck during the argument.

I have thought "what could have made Cindy that angry"? I am wondering if somehow Cindy discovered that KC had on at least one prior occasion placed Caylee in the trunk to sleep. That certainly would rise to the level of anger described by relatives. It would also help support rumors that the DA is thinking about charging the Anthony's with obstruction. See my post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3051839&postcount=70).

June 16

KC and Caylee do spend the night at parents. See post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3033912&postcount=94). According to George, the two leave right before he leaves for work. Cell pings indicate they did not leave the general area. They may have gone to Lee's, or perhaps even the playground at the Hidden Oaks Elementary School. However, computer forensics show she was back at her parents around 2 PM.

Caylee dies around 3:30 PM. I am heavily criticized by some for this but I still believe the death was accidental. I think it could have been a drowning in the swimming pool.

Another possibility I have considered of late is, if KC had used chloroform in the past on Caylee - which is a distinct possibility based on my hunch as to what the previous day's argument with Cindy was about - that she may have chloroformed Caylee when they returned to the home.

Here is the scenario:

They return from the playground (I think the playground is more plausible than Lee's). Caylee goes off to play or watch TV while mom is on the phone and computer. At some point near 3 KC is on phone with JG - JG hears Caylee in the background (note, I am not talking about the call later in the month when he thought he heard Caylee - this is a different, documented call). Caylee is probably over-tired and needs her nap, but won't go down.

KC gets a rag full of "momma's helper" to get her to go to sleep. The amount of chloroform is enough to kill Caylee, but it is probably not immediately noticed by KC.

She calls Tony around 3:35 to make arrangements for the evening, likely telling him she will head over when mom arrives to watch Caylee. She then checks on Caylee and finds her dead. She probably notices because the baby's bladder and/or bowels emptied upon death.

I do not now believe that Casey's calls around 4:00 PM to GA and CA were to report an emergency. I think they were to find out how much time she had to get out before someone showed up. This would be the behavior of a narcissistic person - me first.

I can see her running through the house grabbing some clothes and stuff and throwing it all in the trunk. She also grabs some of Caylee's stuff so that mom will know that Caylee is spending the night with her. That stuff and Caylee all go into the trunk.

On her way up to Tony's she texts him, probably to say her mother showed up early so she is on her way.

June 17

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. I am guessing that she did not move the body out of the trunk, but largely tried to figure out what to do. May have loaded additional stuff into the car.

June 18

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. This time she is thinking "well, I will just bury her in the backyard and no one will be the wiser." Shed is locked so she goes to borrow a shovel from neighbor BB.

Carries body to backyard, places it on ground where a month later cadaver dogs give inconsistent hits. Digging proves to be too difficult in several spots she tries, so she returns body to trunk. Shovel goes back to BB.

June 19

A possible detailed timeline is discussed here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3021836&postcount=67). However, here is a synopsis of what I am thinking occurred:

Checks on Caylee outside Tony's and notices stain on trunk liner and fluids seeping from Caylee's mouth. This probably is due in part to all the movement of the body in the backyard on the previous day. Realizes she has a mess to deal with and starts out toward parent's home. Changes mind and goes to store near JBP to buy duct tape and garbage bags.

Transfer of body into the bag may have occurred almost anywhere, but I think Casey knew the time needed to move things into the bag, tape everything, etc would take time and attract attention, so she needed a secluded spot. Some have suggested the Oviedo home and it certainly can fit within the allowable time. One ping at approximately 3:05 supports but does not prove a trip to that home. See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3025410&postcount=71).

Puts tape on baby's mouth to stop fluid from seeping. This is the only "problem" she sees, only problem she "solves". Places body in a trash bag along with pillow and sheet she took from home on 16th to make it look like she was spending the night somewhere. Seals bag with duct tape as well. I think this explanation is quite plausible. I don't think KC would kill outright, but once faced with a dead Caylee her narcissistic personality did not care what happened to the body.

Note: the 2.6 days determined by the forensic testing was based on the decomposition stain in the trunk and not on the odor analysis. I have asserted that because the weather during this time was quite a bit cooler than what was assumed by the body farm, 3.0 days is an appropriate length of time to use. Once the body was placed in a leak-proof container such as a sealed garbage bag, the chemical composition of the stain would not change.

June 20

Trip to parents in an attempt to clean the stain. Body remains in trunk.

June 21 - 22

Body remains in trunk.

June 23

KC runs out of gas en-route to parents and places call to Tony. Tony picks her up somewhere on Chickasaw near parent's. Both drive to parent's, Tony breaks lock off shed per KC's instruction and takes gas cans. Tony drives her back to car and watches her put gas in tank. It appears she does not return to parents from there.

See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2870752&postcount=2) and here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3015936&postcount=7).

June 24

Drives to parent's home and pulls forward into garage (per GA). Recall that the previous three times she backed in (per BB). This means to me she was there for some reason other than to deal with the body.

George is home and surprises her. Wants to get a steel wedge out of her trunk - not because he needs it but because he suspects KC stole his gas cans. KC rushes out to the car ahead of him and hands him the cans.

The incident has really spooked KC. On her way back to Tony's she turns right on Suburban instead of left. She pulls to the side of the road next to the woods. Making sure no one is looking, she pops the trunk, takes the bag out, walks to the edge of the woods, and tosses it down the small slope into the brush.

She then heads back to Tony's.

June 25 - 26

No visit to parents. Notices a strong smell beginning to form in car.

June 27

Smell has become quite unbearable. Tony is going to expect her to take him to airport in her car, but that will not be possible with the smell. Goes to parent's house knowing she is low on gas to get some things (also hoping to get the car to run out of gas). Checks mail and finds Cindy' JCP card. Takes that, activates it, takes food, and heads to Tony's.

On her way back the smell is so bothersome she texts Amy about it, but describes it as being due to a dead squirrel being under her car in the past. Runs out of gas at Amscot. Calls Tony who picks her up.


I do not believe she ever visited the site of the body after June 24.


I so totally agree with your timeline. Hasn't it been reported that Chris saw her jogging on the 15th of July and texted her and she denied it was her? Could she have been checking on her then?

ElizaAvalon
12-15-2008, 07:10 AM
My comments in pink.

Here is a possible timeline based on my research to date and the latest facts regarding the discovery of little Caylee's remains:

June 16

Caylee dies around 3:30 PM. I am heavily criticized by some for this but I still believe the death was accidental. I think it could have been a drowning in the swimming pool.

No criticism from me! We're all entitled to our opinion. Some days I think accidentally chloroform overdose, other days I think it was planned. Today I think it was planned. The google searches for missing children and household weapons seals it for me. The flurry of phone calls I think were to establish CA and GA's physical locations.

June 24

The incident has really spooked KC. On her way back to Tony's she turns right on Suburban instead of left. She pulls to the side of the road next to the woods. Making sure no one is looking, she pops the trunk, takes the bag out, walks to the edge of the woods, and tosses it down the small slope into the brush.

Definitely. I totally agree - on the 24th after the confrontation with GA. She freaked and dumped the bag in a panic.

cocoamom
12-15-2008, 09:12 AM
I respectfully disagree on the dump date. I do agree with her being in a hurry/panic because on the 27th she texted Tony that she was out of gas before she was actually at the Amscot (didn't Tony text her "where are you"??. Home, grab frozen chicken and popsicles, hurry, dump body, text Amy "finally got rid of that smell, definitely a small animal plastered...." drive to Amscot, meet Tony.

Also, not sure about her driving around with the body in the back of her car for nine days. Wouldn't she be worried about getting pulled over or getting in an accident with this body in the car?

I can't think of any reason for her to out of the blue text Amy that she got rid of the smell unless she really did! She just didn't realize that she may have gotten rid of the SOURCE of the smell but the decomposing stain remained!

What did she buy at JC Penney's??? I still think some sort of wardrobe/luggage thing - maybe to replace what she took from mom and dad's house?

Decomp in back yard could be from on her feet as well as the gas cans.

KellioPSL
12-15-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm going to do my theory in three parts, this posting will be part 1, and will deal with four days 6/15, 6/16, 6/17 and 6/18. part 2 will deal with 5/24 through 6/14. part 3 will deal with 6/19 through 7/16. parts 2 and 3 will be posted at a later date.

1. The last verifiable day that caylee was seen alive was 6/15, this was a sunday and also fathers day. ca took video of caylee singing "you are my sunshine" to greatgrandpa al.
a. the video was date stamped 6/15.
b. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley gets an email date stamped 6/16 from ml and shadow " I know al was tickled to see caylee and ca. their visit made a good fathers day for him."
c. new docs, part 4, pg 29 ga was working sunday-thursday 3pm until 11pm so he did not go with ca and caylee
d. new docs, part 10, pg 31 kc's fake work calender showed her working on 6/15 from 9am until 8pm. so she did not go to mt. dora either.
e. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley, caylee and ca have chilli and pb&j sandwiches after the visit with al at mt dora.
f. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23 kc calls ca at the a home at 5:05 pm the call lasts 4 min.
g. kc places a second call to ca at the a home at 7:10 pm the call lasts 1 min.
h. pings show kc leaves the a home on 6/15 at 8:30 am ping 6. kc arrives at tones at 9:15 am ping 8. kc pings from tone's all day until she leaves at 7:13 ping . kc arrives at the a home at 7:36 pm on 6/15 ping 15.

2. "The Fight" on the evening of 6/15
a.new docs, part 4, pg 5 and part 6, pgs 5 and 37 kc had received a check on 3/19/08 from grandma shirley and grandpa al for her birthday for $20. kc used the routing number off of the check to pay her cell phone bill for $354.
b. new docs, part 4, pg 49 mark f. states that ca and ga told him that ca and kc got into a fight on either 6/15 or 6/16.
c. new docs, part 12, pg 1/ part 14, pgs 1-60 rick talks about kc and ca fighting over the $354. and that ca thought kc took caylee and wouldnt let them see her because of jealousy and to punish ca.
d. lp states on the ng show numerous times that there was fight between kc and ca on 6/15 and that ca had her hands around kc's neck.
e. new docs, part 10, pg 9 ca problems with kc had gotten so bad that ca was seeing a counselor. in an email dated 6/5 from shirley to ml and shadow- "counselor says to kick kc out of the house" ca says she cant put them out in the street.
f. new docs, part 5, pg 49 I believe ca was working a second job to pay off kc's stolen $354. ca cashed three checks at amscot from sunshine reataurants, sunshine restaurants own the ihops in florida. on 4/7 check for $107.36, on 5/30 a check for $136.73 and on 6/14 $88.72. if you total all three checks it comes to $332.81, very close to the $354. that kc stole. I think that ca discovered kc didnt have a job, and that is what caused the fight.

I think the big fight occurred from 7:36pm ping 15 through 8:15pm ping 30.pings 31-37 are noteworthy as they are coming from the south of the a's home. lp stated on ng that there is surveilance video of kc in front of a hotel pacing talking on her cell, and her car is visiable but no caylee in the car. I think this is probably true, kc probably used the hotels bathrooms when she was staying at her secret place off of suburban dr. there are 5 hotels near the a's home, 2 are 5 miles or more and probably wouldnt ping these towers (pings 31-37) but 3 are 3.5 miles or less. wingate on hazeltine dr 3 miles/holiday inn tg lee bl 3.3 miles from a home. ameri-suites east rd to six flags 3.5 miles.
regardless kc is back by suburban by 8:53pm ping 39. she pings there all night. she has numerous conversations with tone new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23
kc text tone at 8:38 pm,kc checks v mail at 8:48, perhaps she was in the hotel using the bathroom between 8:38 and 8:48 pm. kc texts tone at 9:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:06 lasts 11 min/ kc sends text at 10:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:38 for 5 min/tone calls kc at 10:45pm lasts 4 min/kc calls tone at 11:44 lasts 1 hr and 21 min. all of these conversations lead me to believe that they (kc and tone) are arguing, this is speculation on my part. Anyway by 12:02am caylee is dead.

3. calculations for time and date of death
a.new docs, part 2, pg 21 kc and tone were filmed by surveilance video in a blockbuster store on 6/16 around 8:00pm, caylee was not with them. caylee had to have died between 8:15pm on 6/15 and 8:00pm on 6/16, she was never seen alive after 6/15. if caylee had died late afternoon on 6/16 kc would have had a dump date of 6/19 kc did not ping near the a home on 6/19. kc did go by the a's home on 6/17 but was driving tone's jeep. kc did drive to the a's on 6/18 with her car though she arrived at 2:42pm per ping 10.(ping trends thread w/s for june)

new docs, part 5, pg 25 from 12:02am on 6/16 through 6/18 at 2:42pm is 62.4 hours the exact time the body farm determined caylee had been decomposing in kc's trunk.

4. 6/16
a. there were two significant calls to kc on 6/16 new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24. kc received at 7:45am from the a home. She was not home and ca was probably worried about caylee after the big fight.
b. the second significant call was at 3:03pm from ga to kc's cell for 1 min, ga stated that he saw kc and caylee leave the home on the 16th with their backpacks at 12:50pm, if this is true why did he call her cell 2 hrs later ? ga is either confused or lying.
c. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24 kc texts and calls until 3:22am on the morning of the 16th.
d. the 16ths calls morning-into early afternoon/ 6:33am kc checks vmail/8:56am kc calls amy 1 min/9:15am kc calls tone 1 min/11:47am tone calls kc 19 min/ 1:00pm tone calls kc 14 min/1:44pm kc calls amy 37 min/2:52pm jesse calls kc 12 min.
e. there are a flurry of calls made by kc in the late afternoon on the 16th, it is my opinion that she was really trying to get in touch with either ca or ga to make excuses why kc and caylee would not be home that night. the calls are as follows 3:35pm calls tone 1 min/ between 4:10pm and 4:14 pm kc calls ca's cell twice and ca's work twice./kc then calls jesse at 4:21pm for for 2 min/kc calls ca again at 4:24pm for 1 min/kc calls ca cell at 6:31pm for 1 min/kc calls the a home at 6:32pm for 1 min/kc calls amy twice 7:20 for 2 min, and 7:21 for 1 min. I think kc was tying up loose ends so to speak, trying to talk to the a's to "tell "them , wont be home working, caylee with nanny, dont call, dont bother.
f. kc and tone are seen on video surveilance at the blockbuster renting movies, new docs part 2 pg 20. caylee is not with them. tone states in interview that they return to his apartment, watch the movies until late, sleep in the next morning and he skips school.new docs, part 4, pg 4. kc last ping for the 16th is ping 28 at 11:17 pm
5. 6/17 kc starts pinging at tone's at 10:59 am. this day is really insignificant because kc leaves her car at tone's complex and drives his jeep. kc goes to her parents in the afternoon, this is reflected in the pings and in the neighbor brian b's recollection.new docs, part 4, pgs 4 5 and 6.
6. 6/18 "dump Date"
a. kc is driving her car, she leaves tones at 2:11pm per ping 9. 2:42pm she arrives at the a home per ping 10. kc leaves the a home sometime between 3:42 and 4:11 per pings 11 and 11a.
b. before kc heads to the a's on 6/18 she makes the following calls new docs, part 6, pgs 21 and 26. 12:33pm kc calls ca at work 2 min/ 12:34pm kc calls ca's cell 1 min/12:35pm the a home 1 min/12:36 ga's cell 1 min/1:09 ca cell 2 min/ 1:11pm a home 1 min/and ca at work at 4:13 2 min. It is my opinion these calls were made to make sure no one was home before going to the a home. between 3:42 and 4:11 kc dumps the body at suburban dr.

I'm sorry this is so long, in parts 2 and 3 I will go into detail about cause of death, and will fill in the dates of may through july. and as always this is just mho.

Jay D
12-15-2008, 10:07 AM
Here is a possible timeline based on my research to date and the latest facts regarding the discovery of little Caylee's remains:I Think you are VERY close to accuracy JWG. Super job with this post!
My thoughts are similar, with only a few small differences. Of course, I'm only guessing, so to everyone, take my opinion with a grain of salt.



June 23

KC runs out of gas en-route to parents and places call to Tony. KC is very worried about leaving car parked unattended with body in trunk. Also worried Tony might open trunk in the process of fixing her car, or at least he might smell the body while standing close to the car.Making sure no one is looking, she pops the trunk, takes the bag out, walks to the edge of the woods, and tosses it down the small slope into the brush.
Tony picks her up somewhere on Chickasaw near parent's. Both drive to parent's, Tony breaks lock off shed per KC's instruction and takes gas cans. Tony drives her back to car and watches her put gas in tank. It appears she does not return to parents from there.

See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2870752&postcount=2) and here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3015936&postcount=7).

June 24

Drives to parent's home and pulls forward into garage (per GA). Recall that the previous three times she backed in (per BB). This means to me she was there for some reason other than to deal with the body.

George is home and surprises her. Wants to get a steel wedge out of her trunk - not because he needs it but because he suspects KC stole his gas cans. KC rushes out to the car ahead of him and hands him the cans. Doesn't want GA to SEE or SMELL the stain.
The incident has really spooked KC. On her way back to Tony's she turns right on Suburban instead of left. She pulls to the side of the road next to the woods.
She then heads back to Tony's. She left in a hurry, but with a great deal of tension between herself and GA. I don't think she would risk stopping if there were any possibility of George following her. ( In fact, this may be the day that he did). If GA left the house, even with no intent of following her, he could very well have seen her car to the right on Suburban, even though he was going left. To much risk at that particular time.
June 25 - 26

No visit to parents. Notices a strong smell beginning to form in car.

June 27

Smell has become quite unbearable. Tony is going to expect her to take him to airport in her car, but that will not be possible with the smell. Goes to parent's house knowing she is low on gas to get some things (also hoping to get the car to run out of gas). Checks mail and finds Cindy' JCP card. Takes that, activates it, takes food, and heads to Tony's.

On her way back the smell is so bothersome she texts Amy about it, but describes it as being due to a dead squirrel being under her car in the past. Runs out of gas at Amscot. Calls Tony who picks her up.


I do not believe she ever visited the site of the body after June 24.

momtective
12-15-2008, 10:14 AM
I'm going to do my theory in three parts, this posting will be part 1, and will deal with four days 6/15, 6/16, 6/17 and 6/18. part 2 will deal with 5/24 through 6/14. part 3 will deal with 6/19 through 7/16. parts 2 and 3 will be posted at a later date.

1. The last verifiable day that caylee was seen alive was 6/15, this was a sunday and also fathers day. ca took video of caylee singing "you are my sunshine" to greatgrandpa al.
a. the video was date stamped 6/15.
b. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley gets an email date stamped 6/16 from ml and shadow " I know al was tickled to see caylee and ca. their visit made a good fathers day for him."
c. new docs, part 4, pg 29 ga was working sunday-thursday 3pm until 11pm so he did not go with ca and caylee
d. new docs, part 10, pg 31 kc's fake work calender showed her working on 6/15 from 9am until 8pm. so she did not go to mt. dora either.
e. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley, caylee and ca have chilli and pb&j sandwiches after the visit with al at mt dora.
f. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23 kc calls ca at the a home at 5:05 pm the call lasts 4 min.
g. kc places a second call to ca at the a home at 7:10 pm the call lasts 1 min.
h. pings show kc leaves the a home on 6/15 at 8:30 am oing 6. kc arrives at tones at 9:15 am ping 8. kc pings from tone's all day until she leaves at 7:13 ping . kc arrives at the a home at 7:36 pm on 6/15 ping 15.

2. "The Fight" on the evening of 6/15
a.new docs, part 4, pg 5 and part 6, pgs 5 and 37 kc had received a check on 3/19/08 from grandma shirley and grandpa al for her birthday for $20. kc used the routing number off of the check to pay her cell phone bill for $354.
b. new docs, part 4, pg 49 mark f. states that ca and ga told him that ca and kc got into a fight on either 6/15 or 6/16.
c. new docs, part 12, pg 1/ part 14, pgs 1-60 rick talks about kc and ca fighting over the $354. and that ca thought kc took caylee and wouldnt let them see her because of jealousy and to punish ca.
d. lp states on the ng show numerous times that there was fight between kc and ca on 6/15 and that ca had her hands around kc's neck.
e. new docs, part 10, pg 9 ca problems with kc had gotten so bad that ca was seeing a counselor. in an email dated 6/5 from shirley to ml and shadow- "counselor says to kick kc out of the house" ca says she cant put them out in the street.
f. new docs, part 5, pg 49 I believe ca was working a second job to pay off kc's stolen $354. ca cashed three checks at amscot from sunshine reataurants, sunshine restaurants own the ihops in florida. on 4/7 check for $107.36, on 5/30 a check for $136.73 and on 6/14 $88.72. if you total all three checks it comes to $332.81, very close to the $354. that kc stole.

I think the big fight occurred from 7:36pm ping 15 through 8:15pm ping 30.pings 31-37 are noteworthy as they are coming from the south of the a's home. lp stated on ng that there is surveilance video of kc in front of a hotel pacing talking on her cell, and her cxar is visiable but no caylee in the car. I think this is probably true, kc probably used the hotels bathrooms when she was staying at her secret place off of suburban dr. there are 5 hotels near the a's home, 2 are 5 miles or more and prbably wouldnt ping these towers (pings 31-37) but 3 are 3.5 miles or less. wingate on hazeltine dr 3 miles/holiday inn tg lee bl 3.3 miles from a home. ameri-suites east rd to six flags 3.5 miles.
regardless kc is back by suburban by 8:53pm ping 39. she pings there all night. she has numerous conversations with tone new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23
kc text tone at 8:38 pm,kc checks v mail at 8:48, perhaps she was in the hotel using the bathroom between 8:38 and 8:48 pm. kc texts tone at 9:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:06 lasts 11 min/ kc sends text at 10:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:38 for 5 min/tone calls kc at 10:45pm lasts 4 min/kc calls tone at 11:44 lasts 1 hr and 21 min. all of these conversations lead me to believe that they (kc and tone) are arguing, this is speculation on my part. Anyway by 12:02am caylee is dead.

3. calculations for time and date of death
a.new docs, part 2, pg 21 kc and tone were filmed by surveilance video in a blockbuster store on 6/16 around 8:00pm, caylee was not with them. caylee had to have died between 8:15pm on 6/15 and 8:00pm on 6/16, she was never seen alive after 6/15. if caylee had died late afternoon on 6/16 kc would have had a dump date of 6/19 kc did not ping near the a home on 6/19. kc did go by the a's home on 6/17 but was driving tone's jeep. kc did drive to the a's on 6/18 with her car though she arrived at 2:42pm per ping 10.(ping trends thread w/s for june)

new docs, part 5, pg 25 from 12:02am on 6/16 through 6/18 at 2:42pm is 62.4 hours the exact time the body farm determined caylee had been decomposing in kc's trunk.

4. 6/16
a. there were two significant calls to kc on 6/16 new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24. kc received at 7:45am from the a home. She was not home and ca was probably worried about caylee after the big fight.
b. the second significant call was at 3:03pm from ga to kc's cell for 1 min, ga stated that he saw kc and caylee leave the home on the 16th with their backpacks at 12:50pm, if this is true why did he call her cell 2 hrs later ? ga is either confused or lying.
c. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24 kc texts and calls until 3:22am on the morning of the 16th.
d. the 16ths calls morning-into early afternoon/ 6:33am kc checks vmail/8:56am kc calls amy 1 min/9:15am kc calls tone 1 min/11:47am tone calls kc 19 min/ 1:00pm tone calls kc 14 min/1:44pm kc calls amy 37 min/2:52pm jesse calls kc 12 min.
e. there are a flurry of calls made by kc in the late afternoon on the 16th, it is my opinion that she was really trying to get in touch with either ca or ga to make excuses why kc and caylee would not be home that night. the calls are as follows 3:35pm calls tone 1 min/ between 4:10pm and 4:14 pm kc calls ca's cell twice and ca's work twice./kc then calls jesse at 4:21pm for for 2 min/kc calls ca again at 4:24pm for 1 min/kc calls ca cell at 6:31pm for 1 min/kc calls the a home at 6:32pm for 1 min/kc calls amy twice 7:20 for 2 min, and 7:21 for 1 min. I think kc was tying up loose ends so to speak, trying to talk to the a's to "tell "them , wont be home working, caylee with nanny, dont call, dont bother.
f. kc and tone are seen on video surveilance at the blockbuster renting movies, new docs part 2 pg 20. caylee is not with them. tone states in interview that they return to his apartment, watch the movies until late, sleep in the next morning and he skips school.new docs, part 4, pg 4. kc last ping for the 16th is ping 28 at 11:17 pm
5. 6/17 kc starts pinging at tone's at 10:59 am. this day is really insignificant because kc leaves her car at tone's complex and drives his jeep. kc goes to her parents in the afternoon, this is reflected in the pings and in the neighbor brian b's recollection.new docs, part 4, pgs 4 5 and 6.
6. 6/18 "dump Date"
a. kc is driving her car, she leaves tones at 2:11pm per ping 9. 2:42pm she arrives at the a home per ping 10. kc leaves the a homesometime between 3:42 and 4:11 per pings 11 and 11a.
b. before kc heads to the a's on 6/18 she makes the following calls new docs, part 6, pgs 21 and 26. 12:33pm kc calls ca at work 2 min/ 12:34pm kc calls ca's cell 1 min/12:35pm the a home 1 min/12:36 ga's cell 1 min/1:09 ca cell 2 min/ 1:11pm a home 1 min/nad ca at work at 4:13 2 min. It is my opinion these calls were made to make sure no one was home before going to the a home. between 3:42 and 4:11 kc dumps the body at suburban dr.

I'm sorry this is so long, in parts 2 and 3 I will go into detail about cause of death, and will fill in the dates of may through july. and as always this is just mho.

WoW just Wow. Mine isn't nearly as detailed but I do think we are on the same page as far as timeline and theory.:clap:

AZlawyer
12-15-2008, 12:01 PM
That is the same date I have in my notes as well 15th July at 9:30 am is when Chris S. saw her running down Chickasaw Trail and called her and asked her if that was her, and she said No, I guess it is fair to say she frequented the area where Caylee was found. So I guess denying the fact of her involvement will be hard to prove by the defense?
Vanpet

This is what he said to LE...but his text to her (can't find the link ATM) asking if she was jogging down Chickasaw was more like 7:30 am on July 14th, not the 15th.

BellaPhia
12-15-2008, 12:29 PM
I'm going to do my theory in three parts, this posting will be part 1, and will deal with four days 6/15, 6/16, 6/17 and 6/18. part 2 will deal with 5/24 through 6/14. part 3 will deal with 6/19 through 7/16. parts 2 and 3 will be posted at a later date.

1. The last verifiable day that caylee was seen alive was 6/15, this was a sunday and also fathers day. ca took video of caylee singing "you are my sunshine" to greatgrandpa al.
a. the video was date stamped 6/15.
b. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley gets an email date stamped 6/16 from ml and shadow " I know al was tickled to see caylee and ca. their visit made a good fathers day for him."
c. new docs, part 4, pg 29 ga was working sunday-thursday 3pm until 11pm so he did not go with ca and caylee
d. new docs, part 10, pg 31 kc's fake work calender showed her working on 6/15 from 9am until 8pm. so she did not go to mt. dora either.
e. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley, caylee and ca have chilli and pb&j sandwiches after the visit with al at mt dora.
f. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23 kc calls ca at the a home at 5:05 pm the call lasts 4 min.
g. kc places a second call to ca at the a home at 7:10 pm the call lasts 1 min.
h. pings show kc leaves the a home on 6/15 at 8:30 am ping 6. kc arrives at tones at 9:15 am ping 8. kc pings from tone's all day until she leaves at 7:13 ping . kc arrives at the a home at 7:36 pm on 6/15 ping 15.

2. "The Fight" on the evening of 6/15
a.new docs, part 4, pg 5 and part 6, pgs 5 and 37 kc had received a check on 3/19/08 from grandma shirley and grandpa al for her birthday for $20. kc used the routing number off of the check to pay her cell phone bill for $354.
b. new docs, part 4, pg 49 mark f. states that ca and ga told him that ca and kc got into a fight on either 6/15 or 6/16.
c. new docs, part 12, pg 1/ part 14, pgs 1-60 rick talks about kc and ca fighting over the $354. and that ca thought kc took caylee and wouldnt let them see her because of jealousy and to punish ca.
d. lp states on the ng show numerous times that there was fight between kc and ca on 6/15 and that ca had her hands around kc's neck.
e. new docs, part 10, pg 9 ca problems with kc had gotten so bad that ca was seeing a counselor. in an email dated 6/5 from shirley to ml and shadow- "counselor says to kick kc out of the house" ca says she cant put them out in the street.
f. new docs, part 5, pg 49 I believe ca was working a second job to pay off kc's stolen $354. ca cashed three checks at amscot from sunshine reataurants, sunshine restaurants own the ihops in florida. on 4/7 check for $107.36, on 5/30 a check for $136.73 and on 6/14 $88.72. if you total all three checks it comes to $332.81, very close to the $354. that kc stole. I think that ca discovered kc didnt have a job, and that is what caused the fight.

I think the big fight occurred from 7:36pm ping 15 through 8:15pm ping 30.pings 31-37 are noteworthy as they are coming from the south of the a's home. lp stated on ng that there is surveilance video of kc in front of a hotel pacing talking on her cell, and her car is visiable but no caylee in the car. I think this is probably true, kc probably used the hotels bathrooms when she was staying at her secret place off of suburban dr. there are 5 hotels near the a's home, 2 are 5 miles or more and probably wouldnt ping these towers (pings 31-37) but 3 are 3.5 miles or less. wingate on hazeltine dr 3 miles/holiday inn tg lee bl 3.3 miles from a home. ameri-suites east rd to six flags 3.5 miles.
regardless kc is back by suburban by 8:53pm ping 39. she pings there all night. she has numerous conversations with tone new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23
kc text tone at 8:38 pm,kc checks v mail at 8:48, perhaps she was in the hotel using the bathroom between 8:38 and 8:48 pm. kc texts tone at 9:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:06 lasts 11 min/ kc sends text at 10:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:38 for 5 min/tone calls kc at 10:45pm lasts 4 min/kc calls tone at 11:44 lasts 1 hr and 21 min. all of these conversations lead me to believe that they (kc and tone) are arguing, this is speculation on my part. Anyway by 12:02am caylee is dead.
3. calculations for time and date of death
a.new docs, part 2, pg 21 kc and tone were filmed by surveilance video in a blockbuster store on 6/16 around 8:00pm, caylee was not with them. caylee had to have died between 8:15pm on 6/15 and 8:00pm on 6/16, she was never seen alive after 6/15. if caylee had died late afternoon on 6/16 kc would have had a dump date of 6/19 kc did not ping near the a home on 6/19. kc did go by the a's home on 6/17 but was driving tone's jeep. kc did drive to the a's on 6/18 with her car though she arrived at 2:42pm per ping 10.(ping trends thread w/s for june)

new docs, part 5, pg 25 from 12:02am on 6/16 through 6/18 at 2:42pm is 62.4 hours the exact time the body farm determined caylee had been decomposing in kc's trunk.

4. 6/16
a. there were two significant calls to kc on 6/16 new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24. kc received at 7:45am from the a home. She was not home and ca was probably worried about caylee after the big fight. b. the second significant call was at 3:03pm from ga to kc's cell for 1 min, ga stated that he saw kc and caylee leave the home on the 16th with their backpacks at 12:50pm, if this is true why did he call her cell 2 hrs later ? ga is either confused or lying.
c. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24 kc texts and calls until 3:22am on the morning of the 16th.
d. the 16ths calls morning-into early afternoon/ 6:33am kc checks vmail/8:56am kc calls amy 1 min/9:15am kc calls tone 1 min/11:47am tone calls kc 19 min/ 1:00pm tone calls kc 14 min/1:44pm kc calls amy 37 min/2:52pm jesse calls kc 12 min.
e. there are a flurry of calls made by kc in the late afternoon on the 16th, it is my opinion that she was really trying to get in touch with either ca or ga to make excuses why kc and caylee would not be home that night. the calls are as follows 3:35pm calls tone 1 min/ between 4:10pm and 4:14 pm kc calls ca's cell twice and ca's work twice./kc then calls jesse at 4:21pm for for 2 min/kc calls ca again at 4:24pm for 1 min/kc calls ca cell at 6:31pm for 1 min/kc calls the a home at 6:32pm for 1 min/kc calls amy twice 7:20 for 2 min, and 7:21 for 1 min. I think kc was tying up loose ends so to speak, trying to talk to the a's to "tell "them , wont be home working, caylee with nanny, dont call, dont bother.
f. kc and tone are seen on video surveilance at the blockbuster renting movies, new docs part 2 pg 20. caylee is not with them. tone states in interview that they return to his apartment, watch the movies until late, sleep in the next morning and he skips school.new docs, part 4, pg 4. kc last ping for the 16th is ping 28 at 11:17 pm
5. 6/17 kc starts pinging at tone's at 10:59 am. this day is really insignificant because kc leaves her car at tone's complex and drives his jeep. kc goes to her parents in the afternoon, this is reflected in the pings and in the neighbor brian b's recollection.new docs, part 4, pgs 4 5 and 6.
6. 6/18 "dump Date"
a. kc is driving her car, she leaves tones at 2:11pm per ping 9. 2:42pm she arrives at the a home per ping 10. kc leaves the a home sometime between 3:42 and 4:11 per pings 11 and 11a.
b. before kc heads to the a's on 6/18 she makes the following calls new docs, part 6, pgs 21 and 26. 12:33pm kc calls ca at work 2 min/ 12:34pm kc calls ca's cell 1 min/12:35pm the a home 1 min/12:36 ga's cell 1 min/1:09 ca cell 2 min/ 1:11pm a home 1 min/and ca at work at 4:13 2 min. It is my opinion these calls were made to make sure no one was home before going to the a home. between 3:42 and 4:11 kc dumps the body at suburban dr.

I'm sorry this is so long, in parts 2 and 3 I will go into detail about cause of death, and will fill in the dates of may through july. and as always this is just mho.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:
Thank You Thank You Thank You...finally someone to share the same thoughts that I have. I strongly believe wherever Casey took off too the night of 6/15 into the wee hours of 6/16 is when Caylee died, either at the hands of Casey or Chloroformed in the trunk. The 16th, I dont believe GA saw them, he is either lying or mistaken. I think when she returned to the house on the 16th, when she was sure everyone was gone, she got some of her stuff together and "tried" to stage an accident. At some point she put Caylee on the ground where the dogs hit as part of her accident...but probably realized it wouldnt work and puts her back in the trunk. Drives around with her until the 18th, returns to the house on the 18th to prepare the body to be dumped, duct tape and black bag. As far as when she dumps her, Im not sure.

It's Not the Nanny
12-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Kellio - I pretty much totally agree with your timeline.


I never realized that KC received a call from the A home at 7:45 am on her cell on 6/16. That doesn't make ANY sense if GA is telling the truth. First of all, he said they were in their bedroom and didn't come out until 12:50 on her way to work. (I don't know any 2 year olds that sleep in that late and would stay in bed or a bedroom until 1pm!) HE'S LYING because he doesn't want to point the finger at CA for causing the fight that started this nightmare in the first place.

Why else would GA call her the next afternoon??? Because he knew she was not home the night befpre and he was checking on her? Maybe CA called GA and told him to try and "reach out" to her because they were worried about Caylee after the fight. I'm sure KC left the house that night FURIOUS yelling things like, "You will NEVER see Caylee or I again!"

I'm dying to know if the hotel surveillance is true. And, wow, wouldn't that be something if TonE and KC *were* in a big fight the night of the 15th (Why can't you come over AGAIN, KC???). KC was so backed into a corner and took it all out on Caylee.

I think she planned to kill her. Maybe not that day and in that moment but she had been thinking about it for awhile and in the heat of the moment, went through with it.

It's Not the Nanny
12-15-2008, 03:09 PM
I need to add.....


I know the pings and GA getting the gas cans, etc all lead people to believe that KC was driving around for DAYS and DAYS with a dead girl in her trunk but I simply cannot believe this AT ALL. I think she disposed of her ASAP (like 2.6 days).

I think her comment about the dead animal plastered to her car came out of her mouth to Amy on that particular day simply because she REMEMBERED she had mentioned the car smelling to Amy and I'm sure it was still very much on her mind as it still smelled and thought decided to tie up that loose end in case anyone in the group or even Amy came close to her car in the near future before she could figure out how to get rid of the smell.

I think she made her car run out of gas (sat and texted until it died) so she didn't have to drive TonE in it. Why would she want her car stolen? How would she ever be able to get another one???

KellioPSL
12-15-2008, 06:28 PM
I'm going to do my theory in three parts, this posting will be part 1, and will deal with four days 6/15, 6/16, 6/17 and 6/18. part 2 will deal with 5/24 through 6/14. part 3 will deal with 6/19 through 7/16. parts 2 and 3 will be posted at a later date.

1. The last verifiable day that caylee was seen alive was 6/15, this was a sunday and also fathers day. ca took video of caylee singing "you are my sunshine" to greatgrandpa al.
a. the video was date stamped 6/15.
b. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley gets an email date stamped 6/16 from ml and shadow " I know al was tickled to see caylee and ca. their visit made a good fathers day for him."
c. new docs, part 4, pg 29 ga was working sunday-thursday 3pm until 11pm so he did not go with ca and caylee
d. new docs, part 10, pg 31 kc's fake work calender showed her working on 6/15 from 9am until 8pm. so she did not go to mt. dora either.
e. new docs, part 13, pg 12 shirley, caylee and ca have chilli and pb&j sandwiches after the visit with al at mt dora.
f. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23 kc calls ca at the a home at 5:05 pm the call lasts 4 min.
g. kc places a second call to ca at the a home at 7:10 pm the call lasts 1 min.
h. pings show kc leaves the a home on 6/15 at 8:30 am ping 6. kc arrives at tones at 9:15 am ping 8. kc pings from tone's all day until she leaves at 7:13 ping . kc arrives at the a home at 7:36 pm on 6/15 ping 15.

2. "The Fight" on the evening of 6/15
a.new docs, part 4, pg 5 and part 6, pgs 5 and 37 kc had received a check on 3/19/08 from grandma shirley and grandpa al for her birthday for $20. kc used the routing number off of the check to pay her cell phone bill for $354.
b. new docs, part 4, pg 49 mark f. states that ca and ga told him that ca and kc got into a fight on either 6/15 or 6/16.
c. new docs, part 12, pg 1/ part 14, pgs 1-60 rick talks about kc and ca fighting over the $354. and that ca thought kc took caylee and wouldnt let them see her because of jealousy and to punish ca.
d. lp states on the ng show numerous times that there was fight between kc and ca on 6/15 and that ca had her hands around kc's neck.
e. new docs, part 10, pg 9 ca problems with kc had gotten so bad that ca was seeing a counselor. in an email dated 6/5 from shirley to ml and shadow- "counselor says to kick kc out of the house" ca says she cant put them out in the street.
f. new docs, part 5, pg 49 I believe ca was working a second job to pay off kc's stolen $354. ca cashed three checks at amscot from sunshine reataurants, sunshine restaurants own the ihops in florida. on 4/7 check for $107.36, on 5/30 a check for $136.73 and on 6/14 $88.72. if you total all three checks it comes to $332.81, very close to the $354. that kc stole. I think that ca discovered kc didnt have a job, and that is what caused the fight.

I think the big fight occurred from 7:36pm ping 15 through 8:15pm ping 30.pings 31-37 are noteworthy as they are coming from the south of the a's home. lp stated on ng that there is surveilance video of kc in front of a hotel pacing talking on her cell, and her car is visiable but no caylee in the car. I think this is probably true, kc probably used the hotels bathrooms when she was staying at her secret place off of suburban dr. there are 5 hotels near the a's home, 2 are 5 miles or more and probably wouldnt ping these towers (pings 31-37) but 3 are 3.5 miles or less. wingate on hazeltine dr 3 miles/holiday inn tg lee bl 3.3 miles from a home. ameri-suites east rd to six flags 3.5 miles.
regardless kc is back by suburban by 8:53pm ping 39. she pings there all night. she has numerous conversations with tone new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23
kc text tone at 8:38 pm,kc checks v mail at 8:48, perhaps she was in the hotel using the bathroom between 8:38 and 8:48 pm. kc texts tone at 9:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:06 lasts 11 min/ kc sends text at 10:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:38 for 5 min/tone calls kc at 10:45pm lasts 4 min/kc calls tone at 11:44 lasts 1 hr and 21 min. all of these conversations lead me to believe that they (kc and tone) are arguing, this is speculation on my part. Anyway by 12:02am caylee is dead.

3. calculations for time and date of death
a.new docs, part 2, pg 21 kc and tone were filmed by surveilance video in a blockbuster store on 6/16 around 8:00pm, caylee was not with them. caylee had to have died between 8:15pm on 6/15 and 8:00pm on 6/16, she was never seen alive after 6/15. if caylee had died late afternoon on 6/16 kc would have had a dump date of 6/19 kc did not ping near the a home on 6/19. kc did go by the a's home on 6/17 but was driving tone's jeep. kc did drive to the a's on 6/18 with her car though she arrived at 2:42pm per ping 10.(ping trends thread w/s for june)

new docs, part 5, pg 25 from 12:02am on 6/16 through 6/18 at 2:42pm is 62.4 hours the exact time the body farm determined caylee had been decomposing in kc's trunk.

4. 6/16
a. there were two significant calls to kc on 6/16 new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24. kc received at 7:45am from the a home. She was not home and ca was probably worried about caylee after the big fight.
b. the second significant call was at 3:03pm from ga to kc's cell for 1 min, ga stated that he saw kc and caylee leave the home on the 16th with their backpacks at 12:50pm, if this is true why did he call her cell 2 hrs later ? ga is either confused or lying.
c. new docs, part 6, pgs 20 21 and 24 kc texts and calls until 3:22am on the morning of the 16th.
d. the 16ths calls morning-into early afternoon/ 6:33am kc checks vmail/8:56am kc calls amy 1 min/9:15am kc calls tone 1 min/11:47am tone calls kc 19 min/ 1:00pm tone calls kc 14 min/1:44pm kc calls amy 37 min/2:52pm jesse calls kc 12 min.
e. there are a flurry of calls made by kc in the late afternoon on the 16th, it is my opinion that she was really trying to get in touch with either ca or ga to make excuses why kc and caylee would not be home that night. the calls are as follows 3:35pm calls tone 1 min/ between 4:10pm and 4:14 pm kc calls ca's cell twice and ca's work twice./kc then calls jesse at 4:21pm for for 2 min/kc calls ca again at 4:24pm for 1 min/kc calls ca cell at 6:31pm for 1 min/kc calls the a home at 6:32pm for 1 min/kc calls amy twice 7:20 for 2 min, and 7:21 for 1 min. I think kc was tying up loose ends so to speak, trying to talk to the a's to "tell "them , wont be home working, caylee with nanny, dont call, dont bother.
f. kc and tone are seen on video surveilance at the blockbuster renting movies, new docs part 2 pg 20. caylee is not with them. tone states in interview that they return to his apartment, watch the movies until late, sleep in the next morning and he skips school.new docs, part 4, pg 4. kc last ping for the 16th is ping 28 at 11:17 pm
5. 6/17 kc starts pinging at tone's at 10:59 am. this day is really insignificant because kc leaves her car at tone's complex and drives his jeep. kc goes to her parents in the afternoon, this is reflected in the pings and in the neighbor brian b's recollection.new docs, part 4, pgs 4 5 and 6.
6. 6/18 "dump Date"
a. kc is driving her car, she leaves tones at 2:11pm per ping 9. 2:42pm she arrives at the a home per ping 10. kc leaves the a home sometime between 3:42 and 4:11 per pings 11 and 11a.
b. before kc heads to the a's on 6/18 she makes the following calls new docs, part 6, pgs 21 and 26. 12:33pm kc calls ca at work 2 min/ 12:34pm kc calls ca's cell 1 min/12:35pm the a home 1 min/12:36 ga's cell 1 min/1:09 ca cell 2 min/ 1:11pm a home 1 min/and ca at work at 4:13 2 min. It is my opinion these calls were made to make sure no one was home before going to the a home. between 3:42 and 4:11 kc dumps the body at suburban dr.

I'm sorry this is so long, in parts 2 and 3 I will go into detail about cause of death, and will fill in the dates of may through july. and as always this is just mho.

Excuse the self quote, but 2. f. ca does not work a second job at ihop. correction refer to new docs, part 5, pg 44 amscot check cashing file card with ca's name, notice that the address is different than ca's real address XXXX rivertree cr XXXXX orlando, fl 32839 date of birth 9/22/80 employer, Ihop, three ihop checks cashed, trying to remeber which interview had the stuff about mallory's co-workers didnt mallory work at Ihop? kc has a fake id with kc's pix and ca's name, license number XXXXXXXXXXXX. She was cashing fraudulent Ihop checks, kc probably got a hold of one of mallory's check stubs.

FloridaKatz
12-15-2008, 07:53 PM
[quote=KellioPSL;3061456][Excuse the self quote, but 2. f. ca does not work a second job at ihop. correction refer to new docs, part 5, pg 44 amscot check cashing file card with ca's name, notice that the address is different than ca's real address XXXX rivertree cr XXXXX orlando, fl 32839 date of birth 9/22/80 employer, Ihop, three ihop checks cashed, trying to remeber which interview had the stuff about mallory's co-workers didnt mallory work at Ihop? kc has a fake id with kc's pix and ca's name, license number XXXXXXXXXXXX. She was cashing fraudulent Ihop checks, kc probably got a hold of one of mallory's check stubs./quote]

Hey Kellio - there is another Cindy A that lives in Orlando. She is an African American woman who has had trouble with the law, and she is about 28 yrs. old (look at the OSCO arrest record website). This is probably the one that works or worked at IHOP.

KellioPSL
12-15-2008, 08:57 PM
[QUOTE]

Hey Kellio - there is another Cindy A that lives in Orlando. She is an African American woman who has had trouble with the law, and she is about 28 yrs. old (look at the OSCO arrest record website). This is probably the one that works or worked at IHOP.

hey floridakatz ! how are you ? do you think that kc stole her identity ? there are two amscot files for the other ca listed as evidence, I'm really thinking she may have, why else even log these as evidence ? Thank you FloridaK, a couple of tough days, better now. I gotta dig into this deeper......

FloridaKatz
12-15-2008, 09:30 PM
[QUOTE=FloridaKatz;3061845]

hey floridakatz ! how are you ? do you think that kc stole her identity ? there are two amscot files for the other ca listed as evidence, I'm really thinking she may have, why else even log these as evidence ? Thank you FloridaK, a couple of tough days, better now. I gotta dig into this deeper......

Hey there - doing pretty well. Glad to hear you are doing better now too. Who knows with KC and the ID theft. Seems though it would be hard to steal the id of someone that's not your color. DH found out what Timer55 was for. It's a script that is sometimes used in software programming, and could be used to do online identity theft. Read the Timer55 threat and what Alpha Leader posted (Alpha is my hubby).

KellioPSL
12-15-2008, 09:36 PM
new docs, part 5, pg 44 these amscot files are logged into to evidence to prove that this person really exsists, the one that floridakatz refers to. And I believe that when kc was arrested le confiscated a fl dl with this real ca's info and kc's pix, not to steal the other ca's identity, just to steal her name, kc needed a dl with her mom's name easier to cash her checks and use her credit cards.

nostoneunturned
12-16-2008, 12:19 AM
KellioPSL You are good.

Great time line. I believe this.to be what happened :June 15. Kc and Caylee had been staying away since the 9th. kc returned Caylee on the 15 for the visit, knowledge of theft at grandmas, fuming about this on the drive home as soon as kc shows up Cindy confronts kc and kc goes into her room with Caylee. Ga gets off work comes home they go to bed.
kc is fed up.. she lets her thought about wanting freedom take over,She is sick of Cindy telling her what to do for a kid she didn't want in the first place. Yea, she thinks she is cute and plays with her like a little sister but she knows she will NEVER have peace from Cindy as long as Caylee was in the picture. If she gave her to Ca she would still be expect to help support her.
Her internet searches of missing children led her to muse about ; What If Caylee was gone she wouldn't need to worry anymore about anything,Cindy would have no hold on her. She would be the mother of the kidnapped child,She imagines her being the center of love and attention from her family and friends. Caylee is asleep so she uses(,duct tape(maybe to avoid ,waking Ga and Ca). she wraps her up and on leaving places her in the trunk.Either that reason for the tape or after she leaves with Caylee placing her in her carseat(no tape yet) she is driving and Caylee is crying ,she's had a long day. .Casey is mad puts the tape on her to shut her up-grabs a blanket from the car wraps her up sticks her in the trunk ,so she can talk on the phone thus the pacing report.
Her problem NO ONE knows the nanny so for the next 31 days she was inventing her. She was involving all of her friends in the cover-up by telling them where Caylee was,
She didn't say a word because she was trying to make everyone believe in the sitter that would kidnap Caylee. She partied ,she met new friends that she told about zanny nanny was watching her. Cindy was fooled for a month. I think kc was waiting till Amy got back to cry wolfe about Caylee being taken. She left her in the trunk that day (16)went out with Tony got movie stayed with him till late next day.!7)
June 18 she removes garbage from Tony's house and while at the trunk, wraps Caylee in the garbage bag,(LE Needs to search Tonys app)
She was just in a blanket..thus fluids in the trunk,the smell starting to get bad. she uses the other bag of garbage to mask the odor. She stops by the road and carries caylee into the bush leaving her there. She goes to house "backs in to use the shopvac".She uses chemicals from the pool, in the hope of getting rid of the smell. She just needs to dodge Cindy, find some man to support her and continue to plant the nanny idea, then she would go for the take down in the park and the kidnapping story. Cindy surprised her by showing up and getting it all started.When she left she said Im coming back here.She told Cindy, Caylee was at the sitters and give her one more day to bring her home not to wake her now ,etc Cindy did't believe her and becauseof the smell. She insisted she see Caylee now . Casey wanted one more day to fake the kidnapping, but that never happened so thats why her 2 storys. First story..dropped her off, creating the apperance of a nanny, story 2, the kidnapping. She never thought LE would be on to her that quick.
George never saw them,that day. What 2 year old , with the spunk, this little one had stays in their room till 12 ., either he lied or is mistaken.
The smell in the yard came from the gas cans being in the car, every where GA set them
in the yard.
I hope they bring charges against them, because they continue to defend and protect Casey at the expense of granddaughter.
Justice for Caylee

JWG
12-16-2008, 11:24 AM
I think the big fight occurred from 7:36pm ping 15 through 8:15pm ping 30.pings 31-37 are noteworthy as they are coming from the south of the a's home. lp stated on ng that there is surveilance video of kc in front of a hotel pacing talking on her cell, and her car is visiable but no caylee in the car. I think this is probably true, kc probably used the hotels bathrooms when she was staying at her secret place off of suburban dr. there are 5 hotels near the a's home, 2 are 5 miles or more and probably wouldnt ping these towers (pings 31-37) but 3 are 3.5 miles or less. wingate on hazeltine dr 3 miles/holiday inn tg lee bl 3.3 miles from a home. ameri-suites east rd to six flags 3.5 miles.
regardless kc is back by suburban by 8:53pm ping 39. she pings there all night. she has numerous conversations with tone new docs, part 6, pgs 20 and 23
kc text tone at 8:38 pm,kc checks v mail at 8:48, perhaps she was in the hotel using the bathroom between 8:38 and 8:48 pm. kc texts tone at 9:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:06 lasts 11 min/ kc sends text at 10:08pm/kc calls tone at 10:38 for 5 min/tone calls kc at 10:45pm lasts 4 min/kc calls tone at 11:44 lasts 1 hr and 21 min. all of these conversations lead me to believe that they (kc and tone) are arguing, this is speculation on my part. Anyway by 12:02am caylee is dead.

If those hotels listed were to ping off the cell tower you are referring to they would show CID = 21783 in the ATT logs. Instead they show 21781, indicating she is probably at the A's. Also, all of those hotels are within a couple hundred yards of "Tower 9", which is the same tower she pings on July 15th as she drives to OIA to pick up Amy. This tower is not pinged on June 15.

The home-computer forensics in the same document dump indicate KC was at the A's the morning of the 16 - on the computer when her cell phone is called, leading one to believe she could not find her phone so she called it from the house phone. Computer usage drops soon afterward, indicating Caylee is up and needs a diaper change and some breakfast. Computer usage goes back up at 10 until sometime after 11, when it ceases. Usage does not resume again until 2PM.

The computer forensics and cell phone activity support KC being at her parent's the morning of the 16th, leaving sometime after 11:30 or so and returning around 2:00. George had no reason to lie about seeing them leave, and the electronic trail supports it.

Indigo
12-16-2008, 11:41 AM
Hey Karenz, how does the 2.6 days of decomp play into LP's theory? 16th to the 24th is 8 days, right? I don't understand how that could work. I still think she died on the 16th, and she dropped her on the 18/19th (when backed into garage), 2.6 fits with this nicely. No? She might not have been under the sand box, maybe she dropped her behind the fence (with the pool ladder), covered her up with something and went on her way until she decided she had to do something. Did the dogs look behind the fence or just in the backyard?

I still believe she didn't want George to see evidence (stains) in the trunk. Still, five days, trunk should smell really bad................IDK.


Hi IWannaKnow. This time frame works perfectly. I think Caylee died and was buried under the playhouse or sandbox at the A's home on the 16th. Casey borrowed the neighbor's shovel on the 18th to dig up the remains and and damaged the garbage bag in the process. This would have allowed a large amount of leakage into the trunk. That leakage would have continued to decompose and the odor would only become worse over time. On the 18th Casey backed the car up to the dumpsite (debris on left blinker wire? leakage on the rear of trunk where dogs hit?) and tossed the bag. Does this make sense?

KellioPSL
12-16-2008, 12:37 PM
If those hotels listed were to ping off the cell tower you are referring to they would show CID = 21783 in the ATT logs. Instead they show 21781, indicating she is probably at the A's. Also, all of those hotels are within a couple hundred yards of "Tower 9", which is the same tower she pings on July 15th as she drives to OIA to pick up Amy. This tower is not pinged on June 15.

The home-computer forensics in the same document dump indicate KC was at the A's the morning of the 16 - on the computer when her cell phone is called, leading one to believe she could not find her phone so she called it from the house phone. Computer usage drops soon afterward, indicating Caylee is up and needs a diaper change and some breakfast. Computer usage goes back up at 10 until sometime after 11, when it ceases. Usage does not resume again until 2PM.

The computer forensics and cell phone activity support KC being at her parent's the morning of the 16th, leaving sometime after 11:30 or so and returning around 2:00. George had no reason to lie about seeing them leave, and the electronic trail supports it.

ga said that kc and caylee left at 12:50 or 12:55, he was very specific and went into details about clothing, and the tv program he was watching(I can't even tell you what I was wearing yesterday) you say they left sometime after 11:30/ are you basing that on the computer activity ceasing ? or pings ? would the computer show usage if she was logged on, with different programs running, but not physically there with it ? is it possible that kc could have the laptop and used la's ip connection ? what about wifi ? the pings would be the same from la's. The lp thing, really just threw that in there because had heard lp mention it on ng and I found that fascinating, couldnt help speculating. I saw the computer report, don't laugh but I enlarged as large as possible trying to find out if the columns were actually letters, can you explain the computer report so that when I revise my theory I can take that into account. tia.

elle1919
12-16-2008, 01:14 PM
Hi, I just want to say quickly that I really believe Casey had Caylee's body in the backyard. I also think G and C's story about the pool ladder is very important. I think Casey used that pool ladder to climb over the fence in her backyard....went into the woods....followed the trail that she knew by heart from her earlier childhood days....and left Caylee out in those woods. I think she intentionally brought the garbage bag with Caylee's body all the way through the woods and almost to the road on purpose to make LE think someone stopped on the side of the road and dumped the body.

In one of the first tv reports....I saw the police with the cadaver dogs RIGHT AT THE FENCE in the A's back yard.(behind Caylee's playhouse)I think that is where she sat Caylee down while she grabbed the pool ladder to get over her fence. Casey would not stop on the side of the road to dump Caylee's body when she had easy access to it through a path from her backyard!.....Then when she was done, she put the pool ladder back up at the pool instead of where C and G put it to keep it away from Caylee. Thus making Cindy question George as to why the pool ladder was down...............Any Thoughts?

harleysnana
12-16-2008, 01:32 PM
The home-computer forensics in the same document dump indicate KC was at the A's the morning of the 16 - on the computer when her cell phone is called, leading one to believe she could not find her phone so she called it from the house phone. Computer usage drops soon afterward, indicating Caylee is up and needs a diaper change and some breakfast. Computer usage goes back up at 10 until sometime after 11, when it ceases. Usage does not resume again until 2PM.
The computer forensics and cell phone activity support KC being at her parent's the morning of the 16th, leaving sometime after 11:30 or so and returning around 2:00. George had no reason to lie about seeing them leave, and the electronic trail supports it.

Bold by me.
This fits with what I think happened....
I think that they both went swimming. I think that when they got out
Caylee was busy playing or tired and laying down and Casey got back
on the computer.
I think she left the ladder up and Caylee got back into the pool
and drowned. (Cindy asked George about leaving the pool ladder up)
The comment about the "they haven't even found her clothes"
and the fact that it's being speculated that she had no clothes on
when found and possibly wrapped in something could also fit with this.
My grandkids live in their swimming suits in the summer because we
get in and out of the pool off and on throughout the day.
If she was wrapped in something... it may be a towel.

harleysnana
12-16-2008, 01:46 PM
Hi, I just want to say quickly that I really believe Casey had Caylee's body in the backyard. I also think G and C's story about the pool ladder is very important. I think Casey used that pool ladder to climb over the fence in her backyard....went into the woods....followed the trail that she knew by heart from her earlier childhood days....and left Caylee out in those woods. I think she intentionally brought the garbage bag with Caylee's body all the way through the woods and almost to the road on purpose to make LE think someone stopped on the side of the road and dumped the body.

The only problem I see with that is that if you look at a birds eye
of behind her house there are other houses and it's not really covered
woods in fact the woods don’t even start until farther up so she would be
in plan sight for quite a while.
Also... it seems like a long walk to carry Caylee.
I think she drove her there.
JMO

BondJamesBond
12-16-2008, 01:53 PM
ga said that kc and caylee left at 12:50 or 12:55, he was very specific and went into details about clothing, and the tv program he was watching(I can't even tell you what I was wearing yesterday) you say they left sometime after 11:30/ are you basing that on the computer activity ceasing ? or pings ? would the computer show usage if she was logged on, with different programs running, but not physically there with it ? is it possible that kc could have the laptop and used la's ip connection ? what about wifi ? the pings would be the same from la's. The lp thing, really just threw that in there because had heard lp mention it on ng and I found that fascinating, couldnt help speculating. I saw the computer report, don't laugh but I enlarged as large as possible trying to find out if the columns were actually letters, can you explain the computer report so that when I revise my theory I can take that into account. tia.

FWIW, the use of the computer Encase report to support that Casey actually did leave G&C's consistent w/ George's can be found on the "Computer Forensics" thread. IMHO, it supports, as JWG details there, that Casey did leave G&C's in roughly the timeframe George indicated. The cell pings indicate that Casey did not leave the area (perhaps went to Lee's or Hidden Oaks as speculated above) and returned to the home and resumed computer usage after George left for work. The Encase report for 6/16-6/17 also shows a clear transition from the HP desktop as the computer of primary use to the laptop on the afternoon of 6/17 (laptop did an equivalent of "0=>60" usage in this 48hr period).

Also, for consideration. George stated Casey was wearing the pinstripe slacks when she left 6/16 @ ~12:50PM. In the Blockbuster video of Casey & Tony 6/16 @ ~6PM Casey appears to be wearing shorts and a shirt. IIRC, the slacks Cindy washed 7/15 upon recovering the Pontiac fit the description of these slacks and were found in the rear floorboard of the Pontiac.

Perhaps there is some productive speculation to consider regarding the scenarios that would have the slacks being...
(a)removed before leaving G&C's ~4:14PM 6/16 upon leaving G&C's for the second time that day, yet throwing the slacks on the floorboard when leaving, or
(b)removed after leaving G&C's ~4:14PM 6/16 upon leaving G&C's for the second time that day in-transit to Tony's

Note that the first ping near Tony's apt. was 4:21PM 6/16. This suggests to me that (a) is the more likely of the two scenarios.

Cindy stated that she washed the slacks because they smelled like the car. Sadly, recent speculation about items removed from the G&C home may have involved blood stains (e.g. drywall, carpet). Perhaps the slacks contained stains as well... :confused: :waitasec:

Casey had ample opportunity to wash these slacks and was reportedly doing laundry during the 6/15-7/15 period. :confused: :waitasec:

ElizaAvalon
12-16-2008, 04:14 PM
Hi, I just want to say quickly that I really believe Casey had Caylee's body in the backyard. I also think G and C's story about the pool ladder is very important. I think Casey used that pool ladder to climb over the fence in her backyard....went into the woods....followed the trail that she knew by heart from her earlier childhood days....and left Caylee out in those woods. I think she intentionally brought the garbage bag with Caylee's body all the way through the woods and almost to the road on purpose to make LE think someone stopped on the side of the road and dumped the body.

In one of the first tv reports....I saw the police with the cadaver dogs RIGHT AT THE FENCE in the A's back yard.(behind Caylee's playhouse)I think that is where she sat Caylee down while she grabbed the pool ladder to get over her fence. Casey would not stop on the side of the road to dump Caylee's body when she had easy access to it through a path from her backyard!.....Then when she was done, she put the pool ladder back up at the pool instead of where C and G put it to keep it away from Caylee. Thus making Cindy question George as to why the pool ladder was down...............Any Thoughts?

Yup. This is exactly what I've been saying since August, although the ladder thing I didn't put together until the other day. I agree with you on that.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451120#post2451120 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451120#post2451120)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451159#post2451159 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451159#post2451159)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451407#post2451407 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451407#post2451407)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451454#post2451454 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451454#post2451454)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2452233#post2452233 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2452233#post2452233)

JWG
12-16-2008, 05:02 PM
Hi, I just want to say quickly that I really believe Casey had Caylee's body in the backyard. I also think G and C's story about the pool ladder is very important. I think Casey used that pool ladder to climb over the fence in her backyard....went into the woods....followed the trail that she knew by heart from her earlier childhood days....and left Caylee out in those woods. I think she intentionally brought the garbage bag with Caylee's body all the way through the woods and almost to the road on purpose to make LE think someone stopped on the side of the road and dumped the body.

In one of the first tv reports....I saw the police with the cadaver dogs RIGHT AT THE FENCE in the A's back yard.(behind Caylee's playhouse)I think that is where she sat Caylee down while she grabbed the pool ladder to get over her fence. Casey would not stop on the side of the road to dump Caylee's body when she had easy access to it through a path from her backyard!.....Then when she was done, she put the pool ladder back up at the pool instead of where C and G put it to keep it away from Caylee. Thus making Cindy question George as to why the pool ladder was down...............Any Thoughts?

The aerial images of the Anthony neighborhood most people - including the media - have been using are Google Earth images taken April, 2002. The land behind the Anthony's was developed in 2004. Here is an image from early 2008 that can be found on the Orange County Property Appraiser's website:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=620&pictureid=4995

The red arrow points to the Anthony home. Given the above, IMHO, I think there is zero chance she jumped the fence with a body and carried it north.

elle1919
12-16-2008, 05:09 PM
The aerial images of the Anthony neighborhood most people - including the media - have been using are Google Earth images taken April, 2002. The land behind the Anthony's was developed in 2004. Here is an image from early 2008 that can be found on the Orange County Property Appraiser's website:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=620&pictureid=4995

The red arrow points to the Anthony home. Given the above, IMHO, I think there is zero chance she jumped the fence with a body and carried it north.

Hmmm...on the news they were showing aerial photo's as well and they must have been photo's or views before that land behind the home was developed because there was a line of trees RIGHT UP TO the fence in the back of the A's house. Weird. In the views I saw it looked like a patch of forest in the shape of a hot air balloon and it ended right to the edge of the fencing. Oh well

Recovering-Lurker
12-16-2008, 05:10 PM
The aerial images of the Anthony neighborhood most people - including the media - have been using are Google Earth images taken April, 2002. The land behind the Anthony's was developed in 2004. Here is an image from early 2008 that can be found on the Orange County Property Appraiser's website:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=620&pictureid=4995

The red arrow points to the Anthony home. Given the above, IMHO, I think there is zero chance she jumped the fence with a body and carried it north.

Thanks for posting this. It looks very different than the Goolde Earth images. I thought she may have gone the back way into the woods at first, but after seeing this and some other things, I agree that she did not do this.

Recovering-Lurker
12-16-2008, 05:14 PM
Here is a possible timeline based on my research to date and the latest facts regarding the discovery of little Caylee's remains:

June 15

Father's day visit to Cindy's father. Last known videos and pictures of Caylee taken. Fight with Cindy sometime after Cindy and Caylee return. Presumably Cindy grabs KC by the throat or neck during the argument.

I have thought "what could have made Cindy that angry"? I am wondering if somehow Cindy discovered that KC had on at least one prior occasion placed Caylee in the trunk to sleep. That certainly would rise to the level of anger described by relatives. It would also help support rumors that the DA is thinking about charging the Anthony's with obstruction. See my post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3051839&postcount=70).

June 16

KC and Caylee do spend the night at parents. See post here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3033912&postcount=94). According to George, the two leave right before he leaves for work. Cell pings indicate they did not leave the general area. They may have gone to Lee's, or perhaps even the playground at the Hidden Oaks Elementary School. However, computer forensics show she was back at her parents around 2 PM.

Caylee dies around 3:30 PM. I am heavily criticized by some for this but I still believe the death was accidental. I think it could have been a drowning in the swimming pool.

Another possibility I have considered of late is, if KC had used chloroform in the past on Caylee - which is a distinct possibility based on my hunch as to what the previous day's argument with Cindy was about - that she may have chloroformed Caylee when they returned to the home.

Here is the scenario:

They return from the playground (I think the playground is more plausible than Lee's). Caylee goes off to play or watch TV while mom is on the phone and computer. At some point near 3 KC is on phone with JG - JG hears Caylee in the background (note, I am not talking about the call later in the month when he thought he heard Caylee - this is a different, documented call). Caylee is probably over-tired and needs her nap, but won't go down.

KC gets a rag full of "momma's helper" to get her to go to sleep. The amount of chloroform is enough to kill Caylee, but it is probably not immediately noticed by KC.

She calls Tony around 3:35 to make arrangements for the evening, likely telling him she will head over when mom arrives to watch Caylee. She then checks on Caylee and finds her dead. She probably notices because the baby's bladder and/or bowels emptied upon death.

I do not now believe that Casey's calls around 4:00 PM to GA and CA were to report an emergency. I think they were to find out how much time she had to get out before someone showed up. This would be the behavior of a narcissistic person - me first.

I can see her running through the house grabbing some clothes and stuff and throwing it all in the trunk. She also grabs some of Caylee's stuff so that mom will know that Caylee is spending the night with her. That stuff and Caylee all go into the trunk.

On her way up to Tony's she texts him, probably to say her mother showed up early so she is on her way.

June 17

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. I am guessing that she did not move the body out of the trunk, but largely tried to figure out what to do. May have loaded additional stuff into the car.

June 18

Returns to Anthony home, backing into garage. This time she is thinking "well, I will just bury her in the backyard and no one will be the wiser." Shed is locked so she goes to borrow a shovel from neighbor BB.

Carries body to backyard, places it on ground where a month later cadaver dogs give inconsistent hits. Digging proves to be too difficult in several spots she tries, so she returns body to trunk. Shovel goes back to BB.

June 19

A possible detailed timeline is discussed here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3021836&postcount=67). However, here is a synopsis of what I am thinking occurred:

Checks on Caylee outside Tony's and notices stain on trunk liner and fluids seeping from Caylee's mouth. This probably is due in part to all the movement of the body in the backyard on the previous day. Realizes she has a mess to deal with and starts out toward parent's home. Changes mind and goes to store near JBP to buy duct tape and garbage bags.

Transfer of body into the bag may have occurred almost anywhere, but I think Casey knew the time needed to move things into the bag, tape everything, etc would take time and attract attention, so she needed a secluded spot. Some have suggested the Oviedo home and it certainly can fit within the allowable time. One ping at approximately 3:05 supports but does not prove a trip to that home. See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3025410&postcount=71).

Puts tape on baby's mouth to stop fluid from seeping. This is the only "problem" she sees, only problem she "solves". Places body in a trash bag along with pillow and sheet she took from home on 16th to make it look like she was spending the night somewhere. Seals bag with duct tape as well. I think this explanation is quite plausible. I don't think KC would kill outright, but once faced with a dead Caylee her narcissistic personality did not care what happened to the body.

Note: the 2.6 days determined by the forensic testing was based on the decomposition stain in the trunk and not on the odor analysis. I have asserted that because the weather during this time was quite a bit cooler than what was assumed by the body farm, 3.0 days is an appropriate length of time to use. Once the body was placed in a leak-proof container such as a sealed garbage bag, the chemical composition of the stain would not change.

June 20

Trip to parents in an attempt to clean the stain. Body remains in trunk.

June 21 - 22

Body remains in trunk.

June 23

KC runs out of gas en-route to parents and places call to Tony. Tony picks her up somewhere on Chickasaw near parent's. Both drive to parent's, Tony breaks lock off shed per KC's instruction and takes gas cans. Tony drives her back to car and watches her put gas in tank. It appears she does not return to parents from there.

See here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2870752&postcount=2) and here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3015936&postcount=7).

June 24

Drives to parent's home and pulls forward into garage (per GA). Recall that the previous three times she backed in (per BB). This means to me she was there for some reason other than to deal with the body.

George is home and surprises her. Wants to get a steel wedge out of her trunk - not because he needs it but because he suspects KC stole his gas cans. KC rushes out to the car ahead of him and hands him the cans.

The incident has really spooked KC. On her way back to Tony's she turns right on Suburban instead of left. She pulls to the side of the road next to the woods. Making sure no one is looking, she pops the trunk, takes the bag out, walks to the edge of the woods, and tosses it down the small slope into the brush.

She then heads back to Tony's.

June 25 - 26

No visit to parents. Notices a strong smell beginning to form in car.

June 27

Smell has become quite unbearable. Tony is going to expect her to take him to airport in her car, but that will not be possible with the smell. Goes to parent's house knowing she is low on gas to get some things (also hoping to get the car to run out of gas). Checks mail and finds Cindy' JCP card. Takes that, activates it, takes food, and heads to Tony's.

On her way back the smell is so bothersome she texts Amy about it, but describes it as being due to a dead squirrel being under her car in the past. Runs out of gas at Amscot. Calls Tony who picks her up.


I do not believe she ever visited the site of the body after June 24.

This is very well thought out and supported by the pings. Except for the accident part, I think you have it nailed.

KellioPSL
12-16-2008, 05:58 PM
something that I think we should think about, below is a list, between 6/18 and 6/27 of the amount of time spent at the a's house.

6/18 2:42-3:42 1 hour
6/20 1:44 arrival ping, next ping is by tone's at 2:18, so no more than maybe 15 min
6/23 2:44-3:19 next ping 1 tower north of the tower by the a's at 4:01
6/24 2:42-2:55 13 min
6/27 11:09-11:33 24 min

imho 6/18 or 6/23 were the only days she had enough time.

suspicious1
12-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Bold by me.
This fits with what I think happened....
I think that they both went swimming. I think that when they got out
Caylee was busy playing or tired and laying down and Casey got back
on the computer.
I think she left the ladder up and Caylee got back into the pool
and drowned. (Cindy asked George about leaving the pool ladder up)
The comment about the "they haven't even found her clothes"
and the fact that it's being speculated that she had no clothes on
when found and possibly wrapped in something could also fit with this.
My grandkids live in their swimming suits in the summer because we
get in and out of the pool off and on throughout the day.
If she was wrapped in something... it may be a towel.

I think you are absolutely correct! I think that Caylee was found in swimming suit. I also think that she was wrapped in a towel. Something at the crime scene immediately sent law enforcement back to the A's home. I believe it was a towel that had the A's initials on it that was purchased from JCP.

passionflower
12-16-2008, 06:37 PM
I think you are absolutely correct! I think that Caylee was found in swimming suit. I also think that she was wrapped in a towel. Something at the crime scene immediately sent law enforcement back to the A's home. I believe it was a towel that had the A's initials on it that was purchased from JCP.

why duct tape the mouth? why the zanny story and why no call to 911 of an accident???

Indigo
12-16-2008, 06:48 PM
Hi, I just want to say quickly that I really believe Casey had Caylee's body in the backyard. I also think G and C's story about the pool ladder is very important. I think Casey used that pool ladder to climb over the fence in her backyard....went into the woods....followed the trail that she knew by heart from her earlier childhood days....and left Caylee out in those woods. I think she intentionally brought the garbage bag with Caylee's body all the way through the woods and almost to the road on purpose to make LE think someone stopped on the side of the road and dumped the body.

In one of the first tv reports....I saw the police with the cadaver dogs RIGHT AT THE FENCE in the A's back yard.(behind Caylee's playhouse)I think that is where she sat Caylee down while she grabbed the pool ladder to get over her fence. Casey would not stop on the side of the road to dump Caylee's body when she had easy access to it through a path from her backyard!.....Then when she was done, she put the pool ladder back up at the pool instead of where C and G put it to keep it away from Caylee. Thus making Cindy question George as to why the pool ladder was down...............Any Thoughts?

Hi elle. Interesting theory. I've been going round and round about the pool ladder too. In your scenario, where does the decomposition in the trunk come in ?
-------------------------------------

Finally--Adam Walsh case closed - killer identified as Otis Toole. May Adam's family find a measure of peace...

ElizaAvalon
12-16-2008, 08:05 PM
The aerial images of the Anthony neighborhood most people - including the media - have been using are Google Earth images taken April, 2002. The land behind the Anthony's was developed in 2004. Here is an image from early 2008 that can be found on the Orange County Property Appraiser's website:

<snipped for space>

The red arrow points to the Anthony home. Given the above, IMHO, I think there is zero chance she jumped the fence with a body and carried it north.

I wouldn't say zero chance. It may be developed, but there's still a right-of-way between the house behind and the Anthony house.

I don't feel strongly that she went that way to place the body where she did. But I do feel strongly that she was very familiar with those woods because of its proximity to her backyard - and that she most likely went back there as a kid.

Whether she went over the fence using the pool ladder or drove around, hmmm... don't know. I would believe either scenario at this point.

BondJamesBond
12-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Body was initially bagged 6/19 3:07-3:57PM using a large trash bag from Tony's apt. Several small trash bags were taken out of a large one which was ultimately used for the body. One small bag w/ pizza box, etc. remained in the Pontiac. This initial bagging stopped the ADD clock. There was enough time to execute this transfer @ the Oviedo House.

Body bagged a second time 6/20 1:30-2:18PM on the final Pontiac-backed-into-G&C's trip in preparation for final disposal. The small trash bags from Tony's apt (minus one) and some decomp-stained items (e.g. clothing) were also bagged.

Body disposal on Suburban Dr. date was one of the following .

6/20 - final back-in-@G&C's day
6/23 - outta-gas day
6/24 - here-are-your-eff'n-gas-cans day
6/27 - leave the Pontiac @ Amscot day

If the body was still in the trunk on 6/23 Casey would be very reluctant to call Tony for help w/ gas cans when she ran outta gas. She did keep him away from the car, as she did George 6/24, however, that may have been simply due to the smell. The bags of decomp stained clothing and trash likey remained in the trunk after the disposal and were the source of the smell that Casey thought she would solve when she jettisoned them on 6/27AM - not knowing the stain also contributed to the odor. Casey may have held onto her stained clothing thinking she could launder it when Tony left for NY 6/30...esp. if one of her favorite outfits was involved.

I'm thinking the 6/20 final back-into-G&C's trip was for the final (second) bagging complete w/ duct tape. The body disposal on Suburban Dr. took place as Casey exited Hopespring Drive between 1:51-2:18PM and 6/20 @ Fusian she partied her a$$ off 'cause she was relieved that the body was outta the trunk and she hadn't been caught.........yet.

The other alternative is that Casey made it TO G&C's on 6/23 and ran outta gas on her way BACK to Tony's after disposing of the body. Casey's cell data on 6/23 suggests that she had an hour between 1:41PM (last ping @ Tony's before G&C's) and 2:44PM when she first pinged near G&C's w/ a call to Tony. Long call w/ Amy in this time suggests she maybe waiting for Tony before starting to walk. An incoming call from Tony @ 3:02PM for 1.4mins maybe directing Tony to her location as she walks toward G&C's. Casey takes an incoming call from Mark H. @ 3:19PM and talks for 5mins indicating Tony's not around yet. At 4:01PM Tony calls Casey and she's pinging on her way back toward Tony's apt. This scenario seems unlikely as the reason Casey was going to G&C's 6/23 was perhaps to secure gas if she knew she was running low and couldn't go Sunday 6/22 w/ Cindy @ home. No other compelling reason to go to G&C's 6/23 since it appears the reason for the 6/24 trip was to return the cans taken 6/23...and she simply got caught. IF Casey had made it to G&C's 6/23 she would've found a way to get into the shed if she still had a body in the trunk.

The above suggests to me the best date for final disposal on Suburban was 6/20 1:51-2:18PM.

Skully
12-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Body was initially bagged 6/19 3:07-3:57PM using a large trash bag from Tony's apt. Several small trash bags were taken out of a large one which was ultimately used for the body. One small bag w/ pizza box, etc. remained in the Pontiac. This initial bagging stopped the ADD clock. There was enough time to execute this transfer @ the Oviedo House.

Body bagged a second time 6/20 1:30-2:18PM on the final Pontiac-backed-into-G&C's trip in preparation for final disposal. The small trash bags from Tony's apt (minus one) and some decomp-stained items (e.g. clothing) were also bagged.

Body disposal on Suburban Dr. date was one of the following .

6/20 - final back-in-@G&C's day
6/23 - outta-gas day
6/24 - here-are-your-eff'n-gas-cans day
6/27 - leave the Pontiac @ Amscot day

If the body was still in the trunk on 6/23 Casey would be very reluctant to call Tony for help w/ gas cans when she ran outta gas. She did keep him away from the car, as she did George 6/24, however, that may have been simply due to the smell. The bags of decomp stained clothing and trash likey remained in the trunk after the disposal and were the source of the smell that Casey thought she would solve when she jettisoned them on 6/27AM - not knowing the stain also contributed to the odor. Casey may have held onto her stained clothing thinking she could launder it when Tony left for NY 6/30...esp. if one of her favorite outfits was involved.

I'm thinking the 6/20 final back-into-G&C's trip was for the final (second) bagging complete w/ duct tape. The body disposal on Suburban Dr. took place as Casey exited Hopespring Drive between 1:51-2:18PM and 6/20 @ Fusian she partied her a$$ off 'cause she was relieved that the body was outta the trunk and she hadn't been caught.........yet.

The other alternative is that Casey made it TO G&C's on 6/23 and ran outta gas on her way BACK to Tony's after disposing of the body. Casey's cell data on 6/23 suggests that she had an hour between 1:41PM (last ping @ Tony's before G&C's) and 2:44PM when she first pinged near G&C's w/ a call to Tony. Long call w/ Amy in this time suggests she maybe waiting for Tony before starting to walk. An incoming call from Tony @ 3:02PM for 1.4mins maybe directing Tony to her location as she walks toward G&C's. Casey takes an incoming call from Mark H. @ 3:19PM and talks for 5mins indicating Tony's not around yet. At 4:01PM Tony calls Casey and she's pinging on her way back toward Tony's apt. This scenario seems unlikely as the reason Casey was going to G&C's 6/23 was perhaps to secure gas if she knew she was running low and couldn't go Sunday 6/22 w/ Cindy @ home. No other compelling reason to go to G&C's 6/23 since it appears the reason for the 6/24 trip was to return the cans taken 6/23...and she simply got caught. IF Casey had made it to G&C's 6/23 she would've found a way to get into the shed if she still had a body in the trunk.

The above suggests to me the best date for final disposal on Suburban was 6/20 1:51-2:18PM.

Nice to see you posting again, I would say this is a wrap :clap::clap::clap:

JWG
12-17-2008, 07:54 PM
This is a cross-post from the In the trunk 2.6 days (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3070709&postcount=251) thread that I thought was relevant here as well.

With the discovery of the body in a bag, with duct tape around the head and (rumor has it) around the bag as well, it appears KC had the body in her trunk more than 2.6 days. So a question comes up - when did KC put the body in the bag and where?

I have argued that little Caylee died around 3:00 PM on the 16, due to an accident while mom happily chatted and texted on the phone and simultaneously used mom and dad's desktop computer. We can argue about when and how on another thread. I will note, however, to those who think that Caylee was chloroformed and placed in KC's trunk prior to leaving for Tony's, that this report (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0906/is_47_47/ai_53390668) will indicate that she probably would not survive more than an hour...putting death as late as 5:00PM (give or take).

Recall that the Body Farm report assumed Florida temperatures averaged 35C during the time in question when they came up with 2.6 days. I found a weather underground station (http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLORLAN11&month=6&day=20&year=2008) in Orland kind of / sort of in between the Anthony's and Tony's, which should provide a reasonable approximation of the temperatures KC's car would experience driving back and forth between those locations. On top of that, this station reported temperatures every 2 to 6 minutes.

I also found a forensic report (http://books.google.com/books?id=XyG3802xSdwC&pg=PA424&lpg=PA424&dq=white+car+trunk+temperature&source=web&ots=cU_RbyjJqf&sig=Tzgrn3ugJ_h1Tk3Ulf6KoTpicE0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA424,M1) that, amazingly, discussed trunk temperatures in white automobiles. In parallel, Bond found an experiment (http://www.randomuseless.info/318ti/temperature/temperature.html) some guy did in measuring ambient air, interior, trunk, and glove compartment temperatures. The plots posted provided insight into how fast the trunk temperature would rise and fall as the air temperature warmed and cooled.

With Bond's exceptional help (he is the Excel man) I was able to create the following plot. To keep things from getting cluttered, I plotted ambient air temperature in Farenheit and Accumulated Degree Days (ADD) in Celcius. Our spreadsheet based ADD, however, on trunk temperature, not ambient temperature. Trunk temperature was higher. I thought it instructive to show ambient air temperature to give a sense of what the actual weather was like.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=672&pictureid=4998

From this plot we can see that by assuming a 3:00 PM June 16 death the leaking decompostional fluid stops around 3:30 PM on June 19. Originally I believed this to mean that KC had discarded little Caylee at that time. However, the finding of remains in a garbage bag indicates to me that she was placed in the bag at that time.

Note that 3:30PM June 19 occurs during a period of cell phone inactivity just after pings from the Blanchard Park area are followed by a single ping near Dean and University, indicating a possible northward route (or return to Tony's).

I do not believe KC would have put the body in the bag at Tony's or a busy park like JBP. I imagine the job being messy, not fast, and suspicious (trash bag, duct tape, open trunk...). She did not travel to her parent's house that day either. So where did she do this?

suzet
12-21-2008, 02:22 PM
I do not believe KC would have put the body in the bag at Tony's or a busy park like JBP. I imagine the job being messy, not fast, and suspicious (trash bag, duct tape, open trunk...). She did not travel to her parent's house that day either. So where did she do this?

*snipped*

In pchysic Gail's video, (toward the end of the video), the group is walking down a wooded path with tire marks in the road. This area is not real close to the dumping area, but it seems to be close to the chain link fence or school (not sure, I do not know the area at all).

The tire marks show this road is (or was) vehicle accessible at some time, but is also well hidden from view (from the looks of the video, anyway). Perhaps Casey donned her jogging outfit, drove into this wooded road area (if this is even possible, and if it is, Casey would know about how to gain access to it, being very familiar with the area). So let's say she does her dirty work there while working from the trunk, then drives to the dumping scene to finish up. Just a thought.

jujube
12-22-2008, 02:35 AM
My thoughts:

Caylee died after GA saw she and KC because there's no way that KC would have taken the chance that GA would lean over to kiss Caylee.

Either as JWG has stated that Caylee drowned or she drugged her in the trunk before she went to her boyfriend's house and Caylie died.

KC kept Caylie in the trunk for 2-3 days. The body would not have to be in the trunk long for the smell to become powerful and 2.6 days would do it. The stench could have lasted a very long time even though Caylie's body was no longer in the trunk.

Then she wrapped Caylie up and put her in the woods. KC had second thoughts about it and figured she'd be safer if she buried her, so she borrowed the shovel.

In the last pictures of Caylie, she has dark circles under her eyes and looks both tired and jumpy at the same time. I've seen people who take drugs look this way and honestly when I saw her sitting on great-grandad's lap that's what I thought. If KC had been drugging Caylie it could also have had a cumulative effect and the last time her little body just couldn't handle anymore.

Steely Dan
12-22-2008, 04:14 AM
I just joined about 20 minutes ago and there is a lot about this case here already. No big surprise. So rather than go back 3,000 pages I'm just going to post some ideas here now and sort of jump in the pool during a swim already taking place. Forgive me if a lot of this has been surmised before.

Sorry this is long.

There is a book Double Trouble Squared (http://www.amazon.com/Double-Trouble-Squared-Starbuck-Adventure/dp/0152241272)and in this book is a character named "Zanny the Nanny" This book was originally published in 1991 which would be when KC was 7 years old. It's a book for kids 9-12. I believe she read this as a child or was aware of it.

Zanny which is also a street name for Xanax is the name she used for the nanny because she would give Caylee Xanax to put her to sleep whenever she wanted to party. I don't think she told her friends this because some of them would freak out and so she'd put her in the trunk of the car to sleep and told her friends she was with "Zanny the Nanny" as her own little sick joke.

I think Xanax was a very expensive way for her to knock Caylee out and so she started to look for cheaper ways like chloroform.

Her knowledge of chloroform probably comes from the same place most people's knowledge of this drug comes from, the movies and TV. I've never seen a movie where someone dies of a chloroform overdose and so she probably thought it was impossible to overdose someone on it. Unfortunately, I think she learned the hard way.

So she freaks out because she comes down one morning to leave the latest one night stand and she looks in the trunk and finds a dead or dying child. Now she's frantic. She tries to call everyone she knows to ask for help in what to do. No answers. Before she can reach anyone, Caylee dies.

She's desperate now and goes home. She takes Caylee out to the playhouse because she knows it was her favorite place to be. (This is why the cadaver dog hits on that). While she's frantically trying to figure something out she runs to a neighbors and asks for a shovel. She backs the car up into the garage and gets Caylees body and does what she does to the body, putting duct tape over the mouth to make it look like a kidnapping and murder. She then puts Caylee into a trash bag. There is some conjecture that there was a book just like the one Caylee's reading in the heart wrenching video's we see on TV in the bag or near the body. I believe she is rapt with grief and puts that book in the bag to give Caylee something she loved to be buried with. (I can't watch the videos of Caylee anymore it just tears my heart out.)

She leaves the body in the car and waits til nightfall and then goes out to the place where pets have been buried and she and her friends used to hang out and she digs a shallow grave. She wants Caylee close so she can visit her secret grave now and again.

When she realizes she is free of the ball and chain around her ankle or "The little snot head", as she called Caylee, she is euphoric. She can party all the time now without any responsibilities. She gets a tattoo of "Sweet Life" and enters the hot body contests and generally tries to drown her sorrows because I truly believe she loved the child she just saw her as a big piece of weight holding her down.

The meter reader sees the bag a few months later possibly dug up by an animal or she just didn't do a good job of burying the body. He calls the police and then drives away. The cop shows up nobody's there and the cop leaves. The MR calls again and this time a detective sees that cadaver dogs have covered that area and doesn't send anyone out. The third time a cop comes out and starts to go in and says he sees a rattlesnake and won't go any farther. (I wonder if this is the cop she was sleeping with.)

Tropical storm Fay hits and the body is tossed around by the water. When it dries up the bag is where the meter reader comes across it again.

This theory doesn't explain the neck breaking stuff on the computer and the missing children searches done long before this happened.

The searches done for escort services was job hunting for her I believe.

Well there's my two cents.

It's Not the Nanny
12-22-2008, 07:21 AM
Bond/JWG - I always look forward to your well thought out theories. You guys truly are the excel kings!!


I really struggle with the idea of KC just putting Caylee in the trunk, not in a container or bag from the get go. She would be flying around back there, bouncing off the sides. KC would have been terrified to re-open the trunk to see what position she was in.

I feel in my gut (ha ha) that she was immediately placed in the bag (after she was on the ground in the backyard). The bag must have had a small tear or hole in it (maybe from jostling around while she drove) that leaked the fluids. She would have been much smarter to use one of the A's plastic bins. I think she noticed the leak and put her in another bag or two on top of the first layer before dumping her in the woods.

I don't think for a second she would ever chance a free and exposed Caylee in the trunk.....if stopped by police, with TonE, with her parents. TOO RISKY. She would feel much safer having Caylee in the trash bag just in case.

I also don't think she could handle EVER seeing Caylee's face again after whatever it is she did to her so she immediately placed her in the bag. She may have drowned her, suffocated her, whatever.....placed her on the grass and covered her with her towel.....started panicking.....then put her in the trashbag and into her car. She never saw Caylee with her own eyes EVER again after she initially placed her in the bag.

I think her backing into the garage on those dates AFTER the 16th are KC attempting to clean her trunk. (remember, they took the bissel cleaning machine!) She probably thought she was in the clear before the heat and time made the stain start to grow again.

I initially thought that she jumped the fence and walked her to the woods but after JWG's recent pic, I don't think she would chance walking between the houses with a big ol' black trash bag on a hot summer day. She must have drove around the corner on her way back to TonE's.

I believe Caylee was in the trunk for 2+ days (with a leak/hole in the bag) before the final dump at the woods.

servingothers
12-24-2008, 02:35 AM
Kellio - I pretty much totally agree with your timeline.


I never realized that KC received a call from the A home at 7:45 am on her cell on 6/16. That doesn't make ANY sense if GA is telling the truth. First of all, he said they were in their bedroom and didn't come out until 12:50 on her way to work. (I don't know any 2 year olds that sleep in that late and would stay in bed or a bedroom until 1pm!) HE'S LYING because he doesn't want to point the finger at CA for causing the fight that started this nightmare in the first place.

Why else would GA call her the next afternoon??? Because he knew she was not home the night befpre and he was checking on her? Maybe CA called GA and told him to try and "reach out" to her because they were worried about Caylee after the fight. I'm sure KC left the house that night FURIOUS yelling things like, "You will NEVER see Caylee or I again!"

I'm dying to know if the hotel surveillance is true. And, wow, wouldn't that be something if TonE and KC *were* in a big fight the night of the 15th (Why can't you come over AGAIN, KC???). KC was so backed into a corner and took it all out on Caylee.

I think she planned to kill her. Maybe not that day and in that moment but she had been thinking about it for awhile and in the heat of the moment, went through with it.


I often call my own cell from home to find where (what room) I left it. I sometimes lay it down and then look everywhere and then think "Oh, I'll just call it." Sometimes that doesn't even work when I have it on vibrate and it takes 15 minutes and several trips around the house to finally find it in my car etc.

jujube
12-24-2008, 09:42 AM
I often call my own cell from home to find where (what room) I left it. I sometimes lay it down and then look everywhere and then think "Oh, I'll just call it." Sometimes that doesn't even work when I have it on vibrate and it takes 15 minutes and several trips around the house to finally find it in my car etc.

I do this too and want to kick myself everytime I leave it on vibrate because it takes awhile to find.

ibyoungr
05-01-2009, 05:14 PM
bump it up