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TURBOTHINK
12-26-2008, 03:49 AM
Friends of mine and I had a chat about this possibility last week! We dispelled the idea for two reasons:

1. No one has stated that KC suffers from personality changes

2. We didn't see any evidence that she has lost any huge chunks of memory.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/9-24-2004-59666.asp

I am sure they are looking at this or at least researched it as a possible defense.

It is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder if you want to look up some of the case studies.

eddeva
12-26-2008, 04:08 AM
I am sure they are looking at this or at least researched it as a possible defense.

It is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder if you want to look up some of the case studies.

i don't think that'll work.
they already did it in primal fear and edward norton put on a far more convincing performance.

yosande
12-26-2008, 06:24 AM
Now this I totally disagree. I don't support whatsoever the actions Cindy did..I truly believe she was in deep denial. However, I do not believe that Cindy and Casey has the same personality disorder. Cindy was a nurse. She had goals. She provided a home for her family and granddaughter. She does not come across as selfish or self centered in any way. she does not come across as a narcisstic person. Fact is, and anyone will tell you...most nurses are extreme care-givers. Used to being "walked all over" by those around them...because they are overly nurturing. It's thier nature and its the career path that they took.

Cindy recognized hard times as she was seeing a therapist. Casey would never have.

No....I believe it is exactly the opposite personality problems that caused the clashes between Casey and Cindy.

Cindy could "fix" nearly any problem (hence is why she is the dominant one in the family)...again, by nature as that is also very common with nurses....yet, unfortunately, she couldn't "fix" Casey.

I think George was caught in the middle of the two as he loved both and didn't know HOW to fix the problem between the two so he stayed out of it....and became the passive parent. Perhaps due to his own occupation as a cop, and we all know cops have ego's and are NOT passive....but that is the role he took in parenting for fear that if he did use his cop personality it would compound problems in the household. I believe that is why he turned to gambling to avoid the problems. It wouldn't surprise me if he even possibly sought a "way out" himself by divorcing the family............until Caylee. Then there was hope again for normalcy.
I completely agree with you concerning Cindy.
However, I disagree with you concerning George.
A family member stated in an email that he didn't work for half the time they were married. Though I believe he loves his family, GA states to LE that he didn't have a gambling problem but a lying problem based on shame by losing money via an email scam and not wanting to tell Cindy about it. I personally don''t believe that story either. I think his daughter got cc in her mother's name and he was taking the rap for the lost funds. A family member, also in an email states that Casey had squandered "thousands" of dollars from Cindy via cc I think that possibly CA and GA brought this email scam story to life to protect Casey and to prevent LE from going back that far and investigating the true facts. Also, the separation/divorce filing occurred after Caylee was born, just after. This is also the time LA moved out. I find it interesting that both men moved out right after Caylee was born. jmo.

yosande
12-26-2008, 06:51 AM
I would like to add my two cents to this discussion about Casey and the family dynamics. I think the emails between Rick & Cindy’s and the emails from Mrs. P to her sister about Cindy, George & Casey give a new look at this family.

If you read Mrs. P’s interview with LE I find it interesting in the fact that Mrs. P. is very much into ‘how it looks to outsiders’ just as much as Cindy does. The exchange about the Caylee not being hungry since she had popcorn at the nursing home and that is why she did not eat the Chili but she did have peanut butter and jelly sandwich to me is a perfect example of how Mrs. P had to make every thing look ‘normal’ to others.
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To me an almost three year old would have no interest in eating chili for a meal. They may try a spoonful but it would not be something I would expect any small child to really want to eat. It is not a food that small children dive into, although I am sure there are some exceptions. To attempt to make the LE interviewer think that the serving of popcorn is why Caylee did not eat the chili is absurd in its on right. Why not just say that we thought we would see if she would like it but well, as expected she didn’t so I gave her the old child tested and child loved standby peanut butter and jelly. Why go into the whole popcorn, chili and peanut butter & jelly sandwich bit? To minimize the fact the two adults did not think that a small child would not want chili for a meal and that would make them look bad, hence Caylee filled up on popcorn and was not hungry enough for chili.

Also when asked some questions about the date of June 9th Mrs. P. states that she even would have sworn it was the 8th but it was Father’s day. Mrs. P. is giving cover to Cindy for being wrong about the date by saying that she thought the same thing also.
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Why? To minimize the fact that Cindy was ‘wrong’. Cindy cannot be wrong. She is my daughter and my daughter is not wrong.

During the discussion about Caylee being missing and the proper date that Caylee was visiting at the nursing home Mrs. P. makes the comment “that is whole week in our favor” is odd.
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Again Mrs. P. is minimizing the fact the Cindy was wrong with the date.

When Mrs. P. speaks about Casey not coming to see her and her husband since April it is not because of any estrangement between Casey and her grandfather. She just doesn’t know why…
[Page 663 Lines 17-20]
Again Mrs. P. is not telling LE what she knows. She is attempting to make things look as though there is nothing wrong in the family.

The entire interview is laced with these types of comments. Mrs. P. does not want anyone to know that there have been problems with Casey or that there have been problems between George and Cindy. Mrs. P. wants LE to think that everything is ‘normal’.

The name calling between Cindy and Rick although you do have to factor in normal sibling push and pull to me is another sign that dysfunction has been passed down from Mr. & Mrs. P to the children. At ages 50 & 55 there emails show them to be acting like pre teens. It has been way past the time to grow up and act like adults. I get the fact that Rick was attempting to get Cindy to see what was in front of her nose but it appears that they are still enmeshed in the way that they have been raised to handled strife and crisis within a family; point the blame finger, make outlandish comments and call each other names and ridicule each other. That is a learned behavior. They learned that from someone and it is usually the parents.

As far as Mrs. P. emails to her sister, you are only getting the view that Mrs. P. wants her sister to know about Cindy, George, Casey & Caylee or the view that Cindy has given Mrs. P.

It is not difficult, for short periods of time, for the mentally ill especially BPD, narcissist PD or the sociopath to act normal in front of others. It is only in the long term, close contact with such persons that one starts to recognize the inconsistencies and problems.

My opinion is that there has been long term mental and possibly physical abuse that has been passed down with in this family. Cindy, from what we have of seen her behavior as well as what she says and the assorted facts that have been made known acts like she is a classic functioning BPD.
George, with his one demeanor with LE, and a totally different one to the public makes me think major long term damaged and broken down self-esteem issues. The only person he feels remotely comfortable with is LE because that may have been the only time in his past, while being in LE when he felt some self-confidence. He has been told he is worthless, a no good for nothing loser for so long that it has become a self fulfilling prophecy and he can no longer act on his own. He has to have Cindy in his life to function. His interviews with LE and his requests not to tell his son Lee that he is at the police station, not to tell Cindy he said this or said that is shows just how afraid he is of being seen as going ‘against’ the family.
As far as Lee I have not spent a lot of time in going over his statements and media comments. I think there are some major issues between him and his father but I suspect that Cindy is the one who was the instigator of those problems. It fits with BPD. The goal of the BPD person is to pit one against the other then destroy any love, respect between them causing them to feel loss. While vulnerable, the BPD becomes their life- line and puts himself or herself in the role of savior to gain full control. The fact that Lee moved out of the family home makes me question if this process failed or that it was actually working but Caylee came along and the focus was switched. The relationship between Casey and Lee is odd to say the least. I just cannot tell whether Lee is another Casey but more functional or he has just learned survivor skills and can act like the ‘family’ when he has to and can turn it on and off. Lee’s interview with LE just does not sit right with me and I have my suspicions he is up to his neck in something he does not want known.
Casey, well I think that there will be some greater minds than mine that will not be able to agree on what is wrong with her. I also think there will be books written about her for years to come. I will keep my opinion on her to myself, at least for now. Maybe after the trial is complete when more information is known I will venture a guess.
The relationship between family members and LE is completely overlooked in these statements imo.
Also, the whole family is over analyzed, imo. This family is the middle of crisis, and protecting family members is normal behavior.
Rick went overboard in attempting to bring his sister to reality imo, but his intentions were good.
Other than lying, Cindy's behavior is normal to me as well considering the circumstances.
This is just my opinion, and I'm thankful to ws for allowing me to express it.

yosande
12-26-2008, 07:04 AM
From what has been said George worked for the Trumbull County Sheriffs Office and Cindy felt that George should quit. She wanted the perceived lifestyle and money of owning a car dealership. He left the sheriff office and went into business with his father and then for himself. The when and why of the incident with a plate glass window is something that I have not seen any documentation on. I did look on line in at one time in Trumbull County and could find no records for this. It may have not been something that would have been handle on the county level and it may be with a local police department if there was ever any report at all. I did some research into deeds and such and found that there is a judgment against George from the Ohio labor and industry department for repayment of funds. The original filing documents are not on line so I cannot tell if this because George did not pay state unemployment and disability to the state according to their rules or funds that may have been paid out to George improperly. Actually without seeing the original reason for the judgment this may have been a debt that George ended up with due to the way his father may have filed for paperwork while he worked with him.
In George’s FBI interview he did make mention that he had made some bad choices in finances and failed in a business. Somewhere I did see that one of his former co-workers from the Sheriffs office spoke highly of him so I am not sure if the idea that he may have had problems being a cop is correct. I tend to take what is said about George and his past with a very large grain of salt due to the fact that what we have witnessed so far with Cindy shows that she is not above lying. On the lie-o-meter scale Cindy scores up there pretty well.

I did catch in one of Mrs. P’s. e-mails her comment about Cindy not going to Ft. Meyers as planned. [George’s parents live there now]. In Cindy’s statement with LE, I do not remember if it was the one with OCSO or the FBI she said that she was suppose to go to Ft. Meyers to visit with her in-laws but they didn’t go because her father took a spell for the worse and she went and stayed with her mother to be close. Interesting that Mrs. P. did not mention a thing about Alex P. having any trouble or Cindy coming down and staying there. George also mentions that they did not go to Ft. Meyers due to Mr. P.’s health. So did Mrs. P. not tell her sister that Alex was not well or did Cindy not want to see George’s family and told LE and George a lie? If Cindy did in fact tell George that she was going to go and stay with her mother due to her father’s health and Mrs. P. says nothing of this to her sister where did Cindy go.
This is something that I have not seen anything about. This was a trip to Ft. Meyers was to have taken place sometime in the month of June but my memory is little fuzzy so I don’t want to say an exact date. I do apologize that I have not included page and line detail of the transcripts and emails that back up what I just posted. With the holiday I just do not have the time to go through the transcripts right now. Possibly later next week I can see what I can find to give everyone the links to be able to read for themselves.
IIRC, they didn't go because Casey told Cindy she was bringing Caylee home the next day, and then the next and the next until her vacation was over. Cindy wanted to be home so she could see Caylee. IIRC this was because of a car accident the nanny had on the way back to Orlando.
I don't remember reading about Cindy's dad taking a turn for the worse. I must have missed that. sorry.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 07:20 AM
I tread that CA decided she couldn't afford a divorce. But, that GA is on a short leash. Also that he was ultimately unsuited for law enforcement, but also tha CA convinced him to quit and work for his father's auto dealership. That ended when he threw his dad through a plate glass window. Then, he bought his own dealership, but it failed.



According to the documents, she couldn't afford the divorce as she would have had to sell the house and he would have had the rights to half...and she would have had to pay him alimony, according to her mother.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 07:37 AM
I thought it was interesting that somebody mentioned in the emails that George's family had mental illness and Casey had it too.

Who knows? Cindy's problems could all be stress related. To me, she sounds pretty reasonable in the begging of those emails, just like she seemed reasonable at the beginning of this discovery... then came all the fighting, the denials and inconsistencies.

I really don't perceive Cindy as a liar. I just don't. I see her as one extremely on the brink of overwhelming stress from the moment Casey left home and "taunted her by holding Caylee away from her." (Remember, in her mind this is what was happening. (Enough so that Cindy felt the need to write the Myspace note.)

Clearly, I see Cindy was under extreme pressure and was in a fog. Far as we know, or don't know, Cindy could have been medicated and that could account for her mistakes. (wrong hairbrush, washed pants out of "something to do under duress", etc. and not with any malicious purposes whatsoever.) I truly believe that Cindy believed Casey. I think her point in the "dead body smell in the car" was to enhance the cops to get to her house fast as she was so upset with Casey and they were supposed to have been there already and were not. (Remember, she had to make two calls)....even if Cindy felt that smell was decomposition....I honestly do not think for a second that it even crossed her mind that it was Caylee's deceased odor. I think Casey led them on to believe they were "in danger" by the kidnappers and since they believed Caylee was kidnapped.....and Casey's car abandonded...we have no idea (yet) as to what else Casey told them behind closed doors. Did Casey tell them that the kidnappers took her car and left her stranded at that park without her daughter? If so...in Cindy's mind she could never comprehend that CASEY would have abandanded her own car....that someone else did it....and Casey fed her the whole kidnapping story, etc.

Fact is, I believe that was part of the scenario that Casey PREPLANNED once she found she could not rid the smell in the car, etc. I think that is why she left the car at the spot. I think she even purposely ran it out of gas to make it appear the kidnappers couldn't go no further so they abandonded the car.

As much as Cindy comes across as "lying"....I don't see it as purposely lying. I see it as conveying a picture of what she has been told and believed due to her extreme denial. We all see that she has lost a tremendous amount of weight from stress. I just cannot judge her as harshly as others have...albeit, I've had my moments in which I have judged her harshly. However, looking at the overall picture....all her responsibilities and all her problems that she has had to "fix" for others in her family.....it's no wonder the woman didn't have a nervous breakdown long before Caylee went missing. AND...in her own words to her mother, had it not been for Caylee...she may have just contemplated ending her own life. Now that screams overwhelmed and terribly worried and sick over the actions of her family LONG before Caylee went missing.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 07:47 AM
I completely agree with you concerning Cindy.
However, I disagree with you concerning George.
A family member stated in an email that he didn't work for half the time they were married. Though I believe he loves his family, GA states to LE that he didn't have a gambling problem but a lying problem based on shame by losing money via an email scam and not wanting to tell Cindy about it. I personally don''t believe that story either. I think his daughter got cc in her mother's name and he was taking the rap for the lost funds. A family member, also in an email states that Casey had squandered "thousands" of dollars from Cindy via cc I think that possibly CA and GA brought this email scam story to life to protect Casey and to prevent LE from going back that far and investigating the true facts. Also, the separation/divorce filing occurred after Caylee was born, just after. This is also the time LA moved out. I find it interesting that both men moved out right after Caylee was born. jmo.



It wouldn't surprise me if LA is the biological father of Caylee. I can see Casey actually and purposely seducing him...for whatever sick reason. I just can't get past all those money problems in the house and nobody cared to have Caylee obtain child support funding. Lee not wanting a DNA...and a court order having to be obtained. Time will tell.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 07:47 AM
i don't think that'll work.
they already did it in primal fear and edward norton put on a far more convincing performance.

Yes. lol. You're right. Darn that was a good movie too!

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 07:57 AM
The relationship between family members and LE is completely overlooked in these statements imo.
Also, the whole family is over analyzed, imo. This family is the middle of crisis, and protecting family members is normal behavior.
Rick went overboard in attempting to bring his sister to reality imo, but his intentions were good.
Other than lying, Cindy's behavior is normal to me as well considering the circumstances.
This is just my opinion, and I'm thankful to ws for allowing me to express it.

I agree with you. People need to remember that we all lie. It's human nature to lie. Nobody is exempt. When someone asks us "how are your children doing?"....do we automatically start off by divulging how wonderful one child is doing in school and how another one was caught drinking with friends the week before and how the 3d one you found birth control pills in her bedroom? No. We answer, "pretty good. They're doing pretty good. Thank you. And yours?" For the most part if we are having a totally crappy day and the bank teller asks "how are you?"....we automatically say "Fine, and you?". We don't go into the "real truth".

It's no biggie that Cindy lied about Ft. Myers to her family....we all do that when we may want to get out of having to visit someone at one point or another. There is nothing "psychologically wrong" with that. And there is nothing wrong with her lying to her family (mom) about situations at home in which she didn't want to worry her ederly mother further. And it is also possible that Cindy and George knew Casey was pregnant and lied to those at the wedding because we don't know if George and Cindy may have been trying to convince Casey to give the baby up for adoption and this way nobody need "know". We just do not know.

yosande
12-26-2008, 09:14 AM
I agree with you. People need to remember that we all lie. It's human nature to lie. Nobody is exempt. When someone asks us "how are your children doing?"....do we automatically start off by divulging how wonderful one child is doing in school and how another one was caught drinking with friends the week before and how the 3d one you found birth control pills in her bedroom? No. We answer, "pretty good. They're doing pretty good. Thank you. And yours?" For the most part if we are having a totally crappy day and the bank teller asks "how are you?"....we automatically say "Fine, and you?". We don't go into the "real truth".

It's no biggie that Cindy lied about Ft. Myers to her family....we all do that when we may want to get out of having to visit someone at one point or another. There is nothing "psychologically wrong" with that. And there is nothing wrong with her lying to her family (mom) about situations at home in which she didn't want to worry her elderly mother further. And it is also possible that Cindy and George knew Casey was pregnant and lied to those at the wedding because we don't know if George and Cindy may have been trying to convince Casey to give the baby up for adoption and this way nobody need "know". We just do not know.
I don't think she lied to her mom. Cindy shared everything with her mom and her mom shared much of that with her sister which is how we know so much about their personal feelings, such as Cindy considering ending her life. Good thing Casey didn't know that, ey?
Lying is wrong and people should not practice that behavior. I personally think that not telling LE every detail of personal family issues is lying. I'm sure also that it was nerve racking for an old woman to talk to LE, and you don't always think clearly under stress.
I just read from another poster that thinks that Cindy didn't lie. I don't agree with that poster because their attorney requested immunity for conflicting statements to LE which is an admission of guilt. LE, under the circumstances is not investigating them at this time, nor do I think they will in the future, unless CA starts acting out again. Caylee has been found. Now they simply need to let the evidence and Caylee speak, and let a jury decide, and support their daughter if they choose to in a passive manner. This is jmo.
Letting go is the hardest of things to do, but it seems to be the answer to most questions concerning adult children.
I do have a son in prison, and I believed he was innocent of the crime until the day he confessed to me that he was guilty. What followed on my part was anger and shame. I didn't want to be the mother of someone who could commit a crime as he had done. For his part, when he heard my anger and shame, he became defensive, though he had none. Finally forgiveness came. He is paying the price, and has gone through a process of remorse, and has turned his thought process toward righteousness, and his heart has been cleansed. He has steadily increased in health physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Though he will always carry the scar of his crime, as will his victim, he will not reoffend after he is released provided his continues on his current path.
My prayer for Casey is that one day she too will come to her senses and begin the healing process. My prayer for her parents is that they too can come to terms with what their daughter has done, and one day forgive her, because one day she may need to hear it. This will all take time which Casey has plenty of. Good can come from even this, but I'm sure most are not ready to hear that. All those who believe that heaven is a real place understand that Caylee is safe now. No one will hurt her again, and she is in a wonderful place. I'm sure she has already forgiven the one who stole her life from her. But many of us are not ready to hear her voice just yet.
God is enthroned on justice. Jesus says mercy triumphs over judgment.
We all want justice for Caylee.
I believe we all also want remorse from Casey.
I know I do.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 10:35 AM
Yosande, I'm sorry to hear you've had to experience such trauma in your own family with your son and whatever he did that landed him in prison. As a mother, I can certainly understand all the pain and worries we go through from the moment our children are born and all the prayers that they will never come to ill harm by drugs, others, or themselves. I remember my ex mother in law told me once..."Children are a mothers greatest joy and biggest heartbreak".......I thought she was nuts! (lol) However, I do understand what she means. When our children are young we have "control" of their choices...but once they become young adults...sometimes that is when the heartbreaks come. I am glad to hear your son has cleansed his sins and I hope that he can help educate others in prison towards the same. And yes..maybe someday Casey will ask God for forgiveness and confess to what she did and why........if for any reason to help all of those that just cannot ever understand how something like this could happen.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 10:37 AM
OFF TOPIC:
Here is another example of a true liar. I cannot believe this young woman did this. It boggles my mind!

Police: Missing Baby Story Was A Hoax


Watch the video of this woman. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

http://cbs4.com/video/?id=68051@wfor.dayport.com

Can you imagine being the REAL MOM of this child and seeing him all ove the news as missing?

MIAMI (WBZ) Megan McCormick, in police custody, has been charged with filing a false police report for lying about the disappearance of her baby

The search in Florida for a missing toddler with ties to Massachusetts has been called off - because it was a hoax.

Miami police had been looking for help in their search for 6-month-old Riley Buchness, who was last seen by his mother December 23 in Miami.

HOW IT STARTED

Police had very few details of the boy's disappearance when they first asked for the public's help Thursday.

However, they did release a photo of him, saying he was with a woman by the name of "Camille."

"Camille" was allegedly the boy's nanny and she was possibly traveling in a red Acura, possibly with a Massachusetts license plate.

The mother and father are said to be from Massachusetts.

NO NANNY AND NO BABY
It turns out there is no Camille and there is no Riley.

Miami police said Friday that the whole story was fabricated by the woman who claimed to be the missing child's mother.

That woman, Megan McCormick, has now been charged with filing a false police report.

THE REAL STORY

According to Miami police detective Freddy Ponce, McCormick made up the story about her missing 6-month old son to cover up the fact that she had a miscarriage six months ago and didn't want her boyfriend, John Buchness, to know the truth.

Detective Ponce explained to CBS4 In Miami that when Buchness came to town for the holidays to visit McCormick and his son, she made up the story about the baby disappearing with a nanny.

Police say Buchness had no knowledge of the miscarriage and was in town to meet his son for the first time.

Investigators say McCormick found the picture of a child on the Internet and claimed it was her son.

McCormick told investigators that she didn't have a last name for the nanny or an address.

That's when the story started to fall apart.[/quote]

passionflower
12-26-2008, 11:09 AM
IMO, they all are liars. period.............

aprilshowers
12-26-2008, 12:16 PM
Just an observation, but the 'boyfriend' looked as if he were lying too.

His face went from worry to straight, back to what appears to be 'faked worry' back to normal, almost a look of amusement in fooling these folks.

Maybe I'm jaded, but this is what I saw.

marla
12-26-2008, 12:51 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if LA is the biological father of Caylee. I can see Casey actually and purposely seducing him...for whatever sick reason. I just can't get past all those money problems in the house and nobody cared to have Caylee obtain child support funding. Lee not wanting a DNA...and a court order having to be obtained. Time will tell.

I completely disagree ..
I don't, for a minute, believe any of that crap about Lee being Caylee's dad ..

wanetta
12-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Hello everyone - long time lurker here -- I start my day and end it reading this thread!! Thank you all for challenging me to back up and rethink this sad situation from all sides.

April Showers - about the Missing Child Hoax - if you are jaded, then I am too!! lol Something about that boyfriend's expressions didn't wash for me!! I hope I'm wrong, of course!!

Lavanda Dolce & Yosande - I soooo agree with your posts. I thought the e-mails were telling, but I would love to see some of George's family e-mails. I bet it would be a whole new perspective on the situation -- and I don't have a clue which would be more accurate. I would sure hate for some of my e-mails to hit the internet! lol Sometimes it depends on circumstances how "harsh" or "critical" I am about things. And I know I can talk to my family members about a family crisis/member and of course, it just depends on their personalities, how understanding or critical they happen to come off when talking about other family members. lol It looks as if Cindy wears the pants in that family, but when I sit back and think of most couples I know, it seems that one person takes the lead in their lives. As to Rick/Cindy e-mails, well they do seem sort of harsh. My dad was a longshoreman -- so sometimes our conversations looked/sounded worse than they were -- or at least we were used to it! lol We just didn't mince words and got to the point and actually were pretty crude at times if things got heated (my brothers & I), so I find myself not reading too much into that.

I think the stress on Cindy is sooo apparent in the jail visit/videos -- and I'd have to go back and re-listen, but on one tape it was like Cindy was telling Casey to "look me in the eyes" while talking -- I wonder, is Cindy somewhat hard of hearing, or is that her way of figuring out when Casey is bullsh--ing?? Did anyone else hear that?? In some of the videos, Cindy seems to be almost studying Casey as she talks.

I'm one who thinks what Cindy did is lying, also. However, I don't think for one minute they thought Casey would have killed their grandbaby. I think with the smell, her past lies, actions, etc. that they were thinking along the lines of "OMG, what the h.... has she done/gotten into now!" And I think the washing clothes, etc., lying (in my opinion) was to cover for whatever she had "done/gotten into now" and protect her daughter/get grandbaby back. Hope that made sense.. I would be in a pickle in that situation, because I wouldn't trust Casey, and I wouldn't necessarily trust our local cops here, either.

I too, do not believe Lee is Caylee's dad -- I think I simply don't believe anything that comes out of Casey's mouth period (lips moving = lying). But, I too, wonder why the heck they haven't gotten some support for that child, somewhere?? My guess is that it might take a whole season of Maury P.... shows to figure out who to collect from, and I'm sorry I feel that way about her. Perhaps the embarrassment put a stop to that one??

I think, for the most part, I will wait to see the Anthony's behavior/reactions during the trial. If they continue denying that their daughter did anything, and proclaiming that she should get mother of the year -- well, I believe my head will just blow off my shoulders!! Otherwise, I feel sooo terribly sorry for this family and what they are going thru and I can also see certain behaviors, actions, resemblences in my own family/friends (myself??) -- YIKES!!!

As I said, I really enjoy reading everyones opinions/input on this case because it does make one step back and consider where each individual may be coming from in their actions.

Tuba
12-26-2008, 05:35 PM
Yes, you did hear that in the jail house conversations and Cindy also told LE in her interviews that she could detect Casey's lie if she could look her in the eyes. To me, this is a sad measure of Cindy's acceptance of outrageous behavior. She couldn't believe anything her daughter was saying at any time unless she performed this visual check. Disgusting.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 09:02 PM
Just an observation, but the 'boyfriend' looked as if he were lying too.

His face went from worry to straight, back to what appears to be 'faked worry' back to normal, almost a look of amusement in fooling these folks.

Maybe I'm jaded, but this is what I saw.

Nope. Don't think you're jaded. His cry was too fake to me, too.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 09:08 PM
I too, do not believe Lee is Caylee's dad -- I think I simply don't believe anything that comes out of Casey's mouth period (lips moving = lying). But, I too, wonder why the heck they haven't gotten some support for that child, somewhere?? My guess is that it might take a whole season of Maury P.... shows to figure out who to collect from, and I'm sorry I feel that way about her. Perhaps the embarrassment put a stop to that one??



Hi Wanetta, I had to chuckle over the Maury Povich comment. You're probably right. It's possible that Casey herself does not know who the father is? Perhaps the family didn't pursue dragging a bunch of possibilities to be paternity tested.

hannahsnana
12-26-2008, 09:12 PM
I agree with you. People need to remember that we all lie. It's human nature to lie. Nobody is exempt. When someone asks us "how are your children doing?"....do we automatically start off by divulging how wonderful one child is doing in school and how another one was caught drinking with friends the week before and how the 3d one you found birth control pills in her bedroom? No. We answer, "pretty good. They're doing pretty good. Thank you. And yours?" For the most part if we are having a totally crappy day and the bank teller asks "how are you?"....we automatically say "Fine, and you?". We don't go into the "real truth".

It's no biggie that Cindy lied about Ft. Myers to her family....we all do that when we may want to get out of having to visit someone at one point or another. There is nothing "psychologically wrong" with that. And there is nothing wrong with her lying to her family (mom) about situations at home in which she didn't want to worry her ederly mother further. And it is also possible that Cindy and George knew Casey was pregnant and lied to those at the wedding because we don't know if George and Cindy may have been trying to convince Casey to give the baby up for adoption and this way nobody need "know". We just do not know.

LaVanda, if Cindy didn't want to "worry her elderly mother" would she have told her she was thinking of taking her own life? There is no way a person could live with someone like Casey for 22 years and not know that she was a liar, a thief, had burned all her bridges with 'friends', and had no resources to take an almost 3 year old out of that house. I would have kicked her to the curb, but would not have let her take Caylee with her. Fight the court battle later.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 09:23 PM
I completely disagree ..
I don't, for a minute, believe any of that crap about Lee being Caylee's dad ..

It's been a thought to ponder. I guess nothing would surprise me anymore in this case. I think it could go any which way but the truth. I have teetered with wondering if possible and then "nahhhhhhhh" comes to mind. Then back to anything is possible.

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 09:26 PM
LaVanda, if Cindy didn't want to "worry her elderly mother" would she have told her she was thinking of taking her own life? There is no way a person could live with someone like Casey for 22 years and not know that she was a liar, a thief, had burned all her bridges with 'friends', and had no resources to take an almost 3 year old out of that house. I would have kicked her to the curb, but would not have let her take Caylee with her. Fight the court battle later.

I'm not sure. I guess it's all in the context of what was stated too. It's possible if they have a very close relationship and she was talking in retrospect...not in the present sense. Then yes..I could see her telling her mom that "thank God for Caylee as I honestly do not think my life was going to be worth living until she came along."

Lavanda Dolce
12-26-2008, 09:28 PM
IMO, they all are liars. period.............

That's exactly what my husband said.

hannahsnana
12-26-2008, 09:32 PM
That's exactly what my husband said.

I simply would not have the energy to keep up so many pretenses. Can you imagine? I don't think I would have wanted to live any more, either.

sharpar
12-27-2008, 12:13 AM
People overcome their raising ........ millions have

whatever who did what to whom will never excuse the choices KC made

she is an adult and legally competent

Trino
12-27-2008, 10:27 AM
Just my "lurking" opinion...

I believe KC is enjoying her time in the sun, that she somehow believes she's a celebrity.

wanetta
12-27-2008, 12:01 PM
Just my "lurking" opinion...

I believe KC is enjoying her time in the sun, that she somehow believes she's a celebrity.

Trino - I totally agree with you on this. The videos of her going to lawyer was like watching a young movie star on a shopping trip or headed to the beach with body guards all around! Video jail/visits I think she enjoys hearing herself talk - on one video she strokes hair and laments how she must look. As if she has granted a spur of the moment interview!lol

If she keeps to her "the nanny did it" story, I wonder if she will now appear as a grief stricken mother in public (i.e. any court appearances, etc. as the case progresses)?? If so, she needs to practice on that act -- I just hate to see people cry with dry eyes!!

Brini
12-27-2008, 04:23 PM
According to the documents, she couldn't afford the divorce as she would have had to sell the house and he would have had the rights to half...and she would have had to pay him alimony, according to her mother.

Yeah. That's it. Thanks!

Brini
12-27-2008, 04:25 PM
ITA though I think he may be able to sense when ***** is about to hit the fan so he bails before it does. I don't know- he is strange I'll tell ya that.

You could be right. he may know when to duck!

Yeah.. that's an odd family.

Brini
12-27-2008, 05:01 PM
Just my "lurking" opinion...

I believe KC is enjoying her time in the sun, that she somehow believes she's a celebrity.

She even SAID so, She once said, "I didn't mean to become a celebrity.":eek:

Brini
12-27-2008, 05:08 PM
This mays sound crazy. But could KC have "Split Personality Disorder".


Multiple personality:

very rare psychological disorder in which a person has two or more distinct personalities, each with its own thoughts, feelings, and patterns of behavior. The personalities often are direct opposites and dominate at different times, with abrupt transitions triggered by distressful events or memories. Each may be entirely unaware of the other but aware of unexplained gaps in remembered time. In psychiatry the condition is known as dissociative identity disorder. The term “split personality,” denoting schizophrenia, refers to an unrelated disorder in which the split (separation) is between thought and feeling.

Didnt Kiomarie and others state that KC couldnt remember from one day to the next, things she had told them.

Maybe, when she was around Caylee she referred to herself as the Nanny since she had already disassociated herself with being a mother and didnt want to keep Caylee in the beginning. But at Night time she was KC.
Maybe KC is Zanny since she can relate to her so well, and place her places that KC wanted to be, like New York or living in her own apartment at Sawgrass.Maybe the two personalites clashed and thats when Caylees life was taken.


*****MAYBE THIS IS WHY LE RAIDED HER CLOTHES CLOSET , MAYBE SHE WAS DRESSING AS ZANNY DURING THE DAY as her possibly working as a Call Girl******....

Nope. No fugues (large chunks of lost time), no identifyable personality changes, since childhood.

Brini
12-27-2008, 05:09 PM
I am sure they are looking at this or at least researched it as a possible defense.

It is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder if you want to look up some of the case studies.

That dx has lost a lot of traction. It was WAY over- diagnosed, back in the 80s.

Brini
12-27-2008, 05:10 PM
i don't think that'll work.
they already did it in primal fear and edward norton put on a far more convincing performance.

Ken Bianchi TRIED to put on a convincing performance ;-)

Lavanda Dolce
12-27-2008, 08:36 PM
Nope. Don't think you're jaded. His cry was too fake to me, too.

I saw a further full version of that interview and the "father" was nearly in convulsions with crying. Maybe he is not in on it after all? By the way....I saw there is a thread here about the case.

sweetmop
12-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Just my "lurking" opinion...

I believe KC is enjoying her time in the sun, that she somehow believes she's a celebrity.
I agree. She enjoys seeing news clips about herself on tv, and enjoys the celebrity she feels 'she holds'. Yeah, she's a legend in her own mind! lol!

I wonder if she realizes she's infamous, as is Charlie Manson and Ted Bundy, and all those other 'fine folks'!

passionflower
12-27-2008, 10:37 PM
How can the a's live in that house? Caylee would be haunting me!!! IMO
Do the a's watch all the tv shows about them?
Do they ever leave their house?
Does LA still work?
Interesting about how their lives have changed from shouting at the camera to complete isolation.

essies
12-27-2008, 11:03 PM
I agree. She enjoys seeing news clips about herself on tv, and enjoys the celebrity she feels 'she holds'. Yeah, she's a legend in her own mind! lol!

I wonder if she realizes she's infamous, as is Charlie Manson and Ted Bundy, and all those other 'fine folks'!

She only "enjoys" what JB lets her see, hear or read. Her exposure to the real world is controlled by him. Except for what a guard may say to her or some inmate may shout at her-JB is the Master of her world! Obviously, we know that she knows Caylee has been found-she signed the papers to release her remains.
It would be truly interesting to know if she is sinking deeper into her alternate reality where she is probably more comfortable-or-if JB is trying to get her more mentally prepared for the strain of her trial, where she will have to hear her family an friends on the witness stand and she will see the prosecutions evidence and not be able to speak!!!:furious:

MeenaMom
12-27-2008, 11:07 PM
Perhaps Brini or OLG might be able to answer my question..
I have been spending the day reading up on PD's Narcissitic mainly (since I have to deal with one in my ex and we have a child) and I am confused.
ACOA display some similar issues that a BPD suffers from just not the Severity they experience. Is it possible this is a multigenerational addicted family.
Do PD's come from an alcoholic family( which I come from) ? Are they biological? CA Just screams addict In my humble opinion and BPD can be found in Addicts( Not all addicts are BPd) and did this create the Narcissist KC OR?
I don't believe LA is untouched by some PD either.......
Any insight is helpful Thanks

sharpar
12-28-2008, 01:42 AM
Very possible - Cindy has issues and borderlines often raise narcissists
they are both cluster b's Axis II disorders

BPD - I hate you dont leave me -

NPD - come close so I can slap you

they both have abandonment issues they just act them out differently

Alot of addicts also have PD's . Families blame the alcohol/ drugs but its the PD that is driving the addiction and the bad behavior, its a shock
when they become sober but are still irrational and family is still
walking on eggshells.

Pink Panther
12-28-2008, 02:34 AM
What about this Kelly guy? Kelly/Caylee? The "family friend" that GA said could be the ONE person that KC would confide in? Recently, I've read elsewhere that there were rumors that this "friend" had an affair with CA? YUCK. Everything we read and hear and talk about gets worse and worse in this CASE and nothing ever surprises!???

MOO

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 03:40 AM
Perhaps Brini or OLG might be able to answer my question..
I have been spending the day reading up on PD's Narcissitic mainly (since I have to deal with one in my ex and we have a child) and I am confused.
ACOA display some similar issues that a BPD suffers from just not the Severity they experience. Is it possible this is a multigenerational addicted family.
Do PD's come from an alcoholic family( which I come from) ? Are they biological? CA Just screams addict In my humble opinion and BPD can be found in Addicts( Not all addicts are BPd) and did this create the Narcissist KC OR?
I don't believe LA is untouched by some PD either.......
Any insight is helpful Thanks


Very possible - Cindy has issues and borderlines often raise narcissists
they are both cluster b's Axis II disorders

BPD - I hate you dont leave me -

NPD - come close so I can slap you

they both have abandonment issues they just act them out differently

Alot of addicts also have PD's . Families blame the alcohol/ drugs but its the PD that is driving the addiction and the bad behavior, its a shock
when they become sober but are still irrational and family is still
walking on eggshells.


Great answer sharpar- ITA!

Sadly you will often find that an addict is mentally ill and what they are doing is self-medicating. Growing up with an addicted parent is very much like growing up with a personality disorderd parent (my mother was both). The behaviors are the same. The chaos, denial, anger, unpredictablility and constant worry of what will happen next teaches us the same defense mechanisms so we end up with the same issues as one another. Fear of abandonment, lack of trust in others, feeling unloveable.. you name it, they probably share it. Each set of parents were just as unavailable to the child- they just had different reasons.. regardless of the reasons, it effects the children in the same manner.

I also believe that some of the behaviors that go with certain mental illnesses can and often are addictive in nature. I will use myself as an example here- While manic I get a literal RUSH from my reckless behaviors, I crave whatever it may be. I tell myself not to, remind myself of the damage the behaviors cause, I know they are not healthy for me but sometimes I do them anyway because it makes me feel good, it fills that void in me.. I can feel it just as real as if I'd popped a handful of pills. It gives me a buzz. I know, strange, but it's the best way I can try to explain it.


They have 12 step programs for the mentally ill which I think is a wonderful idea because many of the behaviors of a mentally ill person are the same as an addict's behaviors. We share addictive personalities.

IMO..

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 03:40 AM
Gosh, you are so right about what people want to believe.. they try to find anything "reaL" (incest, rape, bipolar, ppd, psychosis) to blame it on because they just cannot comprehend that a person, a pretty little thing at that, could just be evil.

I get most resentful when people say Casey may be psychotic and that may be why she did what she did. It makes me want to take those people by the hand and escort them to a locked psych ward and have them spend the day.. going to groups with and spending time with people who are in fact psychotic. I bet by the end of the day their minds would be changed about Casey. Ya know?

There is illness and then there is evil and society needs to learn the difference. You are a kind soul, Brini- your posts always make so much sense and are informative..I thank you for that and your kindness toward me as well :)

LOL about the christmas party- we had a blast- my husbands boss always goes all out and they are all a bunch of lushes so it's always entertaining!

OLG, Please don't ever stop doing what you do here, to the nay sayers...well you know you will find them everywhere. To everyone else, you are doing a service to educate on a subject that truly needs to be better understood. And who better to do this?

I can tell you what it feels like to live with a narcissist, who has some very disturbing sociopathic tendencies. How it feels to question your own sanity, because being told often enough by the person who loves and treasures you above all others (except himself), you are the problem, you begin to see yourself this way too.

I can tell you how living this led to a deep depression, that at times I thought would never lift. About being so beaten down emotionally that a numbness settled in. Sometimes I thought physical abuse would have been easier to live with, because so many people won't believe in wounds or scars they can't see, so they don't believe in abusers who don't leave a bruise. It took me becoming depressed to realize the extent of the abuse that I had endured for years.

I can tell you what it's like to go through a divorce from a person who no longer wants to live with you, but wants to make sure they look like they have been victimized. (And how it feels to walk away feeling like a winner, no matter how badly you lost in court.)

I can tell you how it feels to raise 3 children by yourself, (after their father "dumped them on me" his words) while he literally lived a few blocks away. (how does a father "dump his children" on their mother? that is something I couldn't explain in a million years) Why it was easier to work 60 hours a week to keep a roof over their heads and food in their tummy's, then to keep taking the ex back to court to collect child support. (He quit his job so he didn't have to pay child support and it worked!) I can also tell you about my pride in each of my kids as they grew into adults; the love and respect I get from them for the choices I made concerning them and their welfare. And how I'd do it all again for any of them in a heartbeat.

I can tell you all about the heartbreak of watching my first born change from someone I loved and admired, to someone I don't know. My adult/child who I have cherished since the moment of conception, but despise the way she lives. The pain of knowing I can't "fix" her and the hope that someday she will want to fix herself. The wall I have put up to protect myself from her illness, so I won't get sucked into that cycle again. All the while loving her as much as I did the day she was born.

Like many other people I know a little about living with mental illness too, while neither of us asked for this, most of my experience with mental illness revolved around choice and becoming strong enough to walk away. While your experience revolves around you choosing to be strong enough to endure that which you can't walk away from.

OLG, the strength needed to face your own illness is admirable, the way you have risen above your own issues to be the best you can be for the sake of your child puts you at a level very few people reach, I hope you give yourself kudos on a daily basis, you deserve it. Sorry if this got too personal, or OT. There has been so much negativity on WS lately, I just really felt the need to point out someone really trying to do some good.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 04:00 AM
What about this Kelly guy? Kelly/Caylee? The "family friend" that GA said could be the ONE person that KC would confide in? Recently, I've read elsewhere that there were rumors that this "friend" had an affair with CA? YUCK. Everything we read and hear and talk about gets worse and worse in this CASE and nothing ever surprises!???

MOO

When was Kelly introduced into the fruit salad? Lee is the only person I remember C&G of endorsing as KC's confidant...

Is this a family friend meaning originally friends with G&C? Now rumored to have been overly friendly with KC? :yuck: and :yuck: :yuck: is right, and :shakehead: :censored: :ashamed0005: tossed in for good measure.

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 04:21 AM
~snip~

LE states to GA that she had a sudden personality change post high school, or post 20, I can't remember which, but I think something happened her senior year that changed her. If she was raped by a male relative, and she told her mom, and her mom didn't believe her, could something like this cause this behavior? Verbal abuse, stealing, lying to parents, especially her mom?
Not bonding with her daughter but pretending to, even to the point of murder?
just questions. No matter what happened if anything did, she had the control to give Caylee away when she was born, before she was born even, or anytime after, even when she was two. There is no excuse for what she did, but I do have questions as to what, if anything happened to cause Casey's personality change. Her grandma SP said she didn't know this Casey, so she wasn't always a monster. Something happened.And what if Caylee's father is a male relative, and GA was referring to it, and so the whole family was in on the "secret"? I have to go back and see Cindy's facial reaction to GA saying that. This could also explain CA's overreaction to JG on Casey's bed when they were already engaged at the time. jmo
One thing is certain, CA and Casey's relationship is strange. The only time we see possible real tears from Casey is when she is being referred to as someone's child, or when her mom was on the stand and publicly loves her daughter.
I really don't know if any of this means anything or not. I have no professional training on the subject of this thread.

The police didn't say she had a sudden personality change. They asked if anything had happened to her in the past 2 years.

Yeah, something did happen and it isn't that difficult to pin-point, IMO. Casey had a baby and was no longer the center of the universe. She was expected to grow up, to be a mother, to work and be responsible. She had no desire to settle down, that is obvious! She blew off her job, wanted to hang out with her friends all the time (lied about having a job at the sporting store so she could hang out with friends when she was supposed to be "working") and party.. she wanted to meet men, spend the night at boyfriends houses and she couldn't, because of Caylee or if she did then mommy would call and make her come home. Casey wanted to continue living her life on her terms, for her, not for her child.

Having a baby and being expected to care for that baby changed everything...IMO that's the "something" that happened!

Amity
12-28-2008, 04:24 AM
This mays sound crazy. But could KC have "Split Personality Disorder".


Multiple personality:

very rare psychological disorder in which a person has two or more distinct personalities, each with its own thoughts, feelings, and patterns of behavior. The personalities often are direct opposites and dominate at different times, with abrupt transitions triggered by distressful events or memories. Each may be entirely unaware of the other but aware of unexplained gaps in remembered time. In psychiatry the condition is known as dissociative identity disorder. The term “split personality,” denoting schizophrenia, refers to an unrelated disorder in which the split (separation) is between thought and feeling.

Didnt Kiomarie and others state that KC couldnt remember from one day to the next, things she had told them.

Maybe, when she was around Caylee she referred to herself as the Nanny since she had already disassociated herself with being a mother and didnt want to keep Caylee in the beginning. But at Night time she was KC.
Maybe KC is Zanny since she can relate to her so well, and place her places that KC wanted to be, like New York or living in her own apartment at Sawgrass.Maybe the two personalites clashed and thats when Caylees life was taken.


*****MAYBE THIS IS WHY LE RAIDED HER CLOTHES CLOSET , MAYBE SHE WAS DRESSING AS ZANNY DURING THE DAY as her possibly working as a Call Girl******....


Bolding above is mine.
I know I'm a bit late with my reponse to this post but it is bordering on my thought process through this whole Caylee crisis.

I love everyones' input.....fascinating!
I love the links especially that of Dr. Mitchell!

But the MPD aspect has been in the back of my mind for a long time and now that the defense hasn't much to go on unless Casey decides to take a deal -plead to lessor, I have been thinking about it more and more.

What if *follow along like you are interested even though you might think I might be talking out of my hat. lol*
What if "When it all comes out in court you will all be surprised/know the whole story" turns out to be "Casey has had a deep dark secret for years that she has been afraid to tell anyone. That secret is that Casey loses time. She can't remember what she did an hour ago sometimes. As an example; She will be going along just fine and suddenly find herself in her car driving but doesn't know where she was supposed to be going".

Maybe not MPD but something else, something that started happening maybe in Jr. or Sr. high?
Could there be an illness, much like alchoholics black out and don't remember what they did, where Casey blacked out or lost time and her repeated words to LE, family and anyone who'd listen were "I don't know where Caylee is" is the truth?

NOT that I am defending Casey in any way but I guess my mind can't wrap around any of the facts...that a mom, with all she had going for her, would kill a precious baby like Caylee. I'm trying to make some sense of it all...even bought the book 'Erased' by Marilee Strong in hopes of helping me come to grips with what has happened.

I'm just wondering if there isn't some medical condition that Casey has that she has been keeping secret...the whole 'perfect impression of the family' and all that she's been taught, to keep it hidden.

In my own family, when a family member finally came clean and told the family about her bipolar, the family changed the subject.
Most of the family said there is no way there could be mental illness in the family and didn't believe family member, the other members refused to discuss it with the bipolar family member and a few won't speak to bipolar family member saying she is 'sick' and 'could kill someone at any moment'.
I'm telling this because maybe Casey knew darn well what would happen if she told any family member about her losing time or not remembering instances weeks, days or even hours ago. I can imagine her family and what they would say/do!

So in Casey's family, maybe Casey would be afraid to tell anyone in her family that she was losing time and in fact really doesn't remember what happened to Caylee...especially if her family is anything like mine when it comes to sweeping things under the rug and keeping up all appearances no matter the cost.

OK, don't hit me with a wet noodle :)...I'm just rambling...trying to make some sense of it all.

essies
12-28-2008, 04:29 AM
OneLostGirl
Brini
MissMyBaby
:blowkiss:to you all!! Your posts have been helpful beyond words!:blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 04:33 AM
OLG, Please don't ever stop doing what you do here, to the nay sayers...well you know you will find them everywhere. To everyone else, you are doing a service to educate on a subject that truly needs to be better understood. And who better to do this?

I can tell you what it feels like to live with a narcissist, who has some very disturbing sociopathic tendencies. How it feels to question your own sanity, because being told often enough by the person who loves and treasures you above all others (except himself), you are the problem, you begin to see yourself this way too.

I can tell you how living this led to a deep depression, that at times I thought would never lift. About being so beaten down emotionally that a numbness settled in. Sometimes I thought physical abuse would have been easier to live with, because so many people won't believe in wounds or scars they can't see, so they don't believe in abusers who don't leave a bruise. It took me becoming depressed to realize the extent of the abuse that I had endured for years.

I can tell you what it's like to go through a divorce from a person who no longer wants to live with you, but wants to make sure they look like they have been victimized. (And how it feels to walk away feeling like a winner, no matter how badly you lost in court.)

I can tell you how it feels to raise 3 children by yourself, (after their father "dumped them on me" his words) while he literally lived a few blocks away. (how does a father "dump his children" on their mother? that is something I couldn't explain in a million years) Why it was easier to work 60 hours a week to keep a roof over their heads and food in their tummy's, then to keep taking the ex back to court to collect child support. (He quit his job so he didn't have to pay child support and it worked!) I can also tell you about my pride in each of my kids as they grew into adults; the love and respect I get from them for the choices I made concerning them and their welfare. And how I'd do it all again for any of them in a heartbeat.

I can tell you all about the heartbreak of watching my first born change from someone I loved and admired, to someone I don't know. My adult/child who I have cherished since the moment of conception, but despise the way she lives. The pain of knowing I can't "fix" her and the hope that someday she will want to fix herself. The wall I have put up to protect myself from her illness, so I won't get sucked into that cycle again. All the while loving her as much as I did the day she was born.

Like many other people I know a little about living with mental illness too, while neither of us asked for this, most of my experience with mental illness revolved around choice and becoming strong enough to walk away. While your experience revolves around you choosing to be strong enough to endure that which you can't walk away from.

OLG, the strength needed to face your own illness is admirable, the way you have risen above your own issues to be the best you can be for the sake of your child puts you at a level very few people reach, I hope you give yourself kudos on a daily basis, you deserve it. Sorry if this got too personal, or OT. There has been so much negativity on WS lately, I just really felt the need to point out someone really trying to do some good.

Thank you, that's really sweet of you!
YOUR strength is admirable, woman! I don't know if I could make it in a situation like yours, for real!! :blowkiss:

Please don't ever feel guilty (or allow her to make you feel guilty) for protecting yourself against what your daughter has allowed herself to become. You are doing the right thing! I pray she will see what she is doing to herself and get help, sooner rather than later! :blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 04:44 AM
Bolding above is mine.
I know I'm a bit late with my reponse to this post but it is bordering on my thought process through this whole Caylee crisis.

I love everyones' input.....fascinating!
I love the links especially that of Dr. Mitchell!

But the MPD aspect has been in the back of my mind for a long time and now that the defense hasn't much to go on unless Casey decides to take a deal -plead to lessor, I have been thinking about it more and more.

What if *follow along like you are interested even though you might think I might be talking out of my hat. lol*
What if "When it all comes out in court you will all be surprised/know the whole story" turns out to be "Casey has had a deep dark secret for years that she has been afraid to tell anyone. That secret is that Casey loses time. She can't remember what she did an hour ago sometimes. As an example; She will be going along just fine and suddenly find herself in her car driving but doesn't know where she was supposed to be going".

Maybe not MPD but something else, something that started happening maybe in Jr. or Sr. high?
Could there be an illness, much like alcholics black out and don't remember what they did, where Casey blacked out or lost time and her repeated words to LE, family and anyone who'd listen were "I don't know where Caylee is" is the truth?

NOT that I am defending Casey in any way but I guess my mind can't wrap around any of the facts...that a mom, with all she had going for her, would kill a precious baby like Caylee. I'm trying to make some sense of it all...even bought the book 'Erased' by Marilee Strong in hopes of helping me come to grips with what has happened.

I'm just wondering if there isn't some medical condition that Casey has that she has been keeping secret...the whole 'perfect impression of the family' and all that she's been taught, to keep it hidden.

In my own family, when a family member finally came clean and told the family about her bipolar, the family changed the subject.
Most of the family said there is no way there could be mental illness in the family and didn't believe family member, the other members refused to discuss it with the bipolar family member and a few won't speak to bipolar family member saying they are 'sick' and 'could kill someone at any moment'.

So in Casey's family, maybe Casey would be afraid to tell anyone in her family that she was losing time and in fact really doesn't remember what happened to Caylee...especially if her family is anything like mine when it comes to sweeping things under the rug and keeping up all appearances no matter the cost.

OK, don't hit me with a wet noodle :)...I'm just rambling...trying to make some sense of it all.

People would notice- you can't keep "losing time" a secret. Also, I can't imagine she would choose life in prison for the murder of her daughter over simply telling people she looses time- no matter how messed up she is. I mean, she has already shattered the "'perfect impression of the family", I'd think in comparison her parents would be happy all she was doing was "losing time", not killing her daughter.

Lil'E
12-28-2008, 05:23 AM
Not trying in any way shapes of form to defend anything KC has done, but as a person with a siezure disorder I have lost long periods of time. I consealed it for 5 years until I was driving with a friend to my sisters house and half way there I forgot where I was, who I was with and where I was going. I did not have an accident she alerted me something was wrong. I had many tests and mri of brain and was found to be epileptic. I no longer drive and my siezure have become worse, but in the begining I would just space out and not remember anything.

It has been said that KC has had at least one siezure, it is entirely possible that she is in the begining stages of full blown epilespys. It took 5 years for mine to develope to that stage. It was a result of falling on ice.

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 05:28 AM
Not trying in any way shapes of form to defend anything KC has done, but as a person with a siezure disorder I have lost long periods of time. I consealed it for 5 years until I was driving with a friend to my sisters house and half way there I forgot where I was, who I was with and where I was going. I did not have an accident she alerted me something was wrong. I had many tests and mri of brain and was found to be epileptic. I no longer drive and my siezure have become worse, but in the begining I would just space out and not remember anything.

It has been said that KC has had at least one siezure, it is entirely possible that she is in the begining stages of full blown epilespys. It took 5 years for mine to develope to that stage. It was a result of falling on ice.

For a month?!

Lil'E
12-28-2008, 05:32 AM
For a month?!


No, for a day.

yosande
12-28-2008, 05:51 AM
The police didn't say she had a sudden personality change. They asked if anything had happened to her in the past 2 years.

Yeah, something did happen and it isn't that difficult to pin-point, IMO. Casey had a baby and was no longer the center of the universe. She was expected to grow up, to be a mother, to work and be responsible. She had no desire to settle down, that is obvious! She blew off her job, wanted to hang out with her friends all the time (lied about having a job at the sporting store so she could hang out with friends when she was supposed to be "working") and party.. she wanted to meet men, spend the night at boyfriends houses and she couldn't, because of Caylee or if she did then mommy would call and make her come home. Casey wanted to continue living her life on her terms, for her, not for her child.

Having a baby and being expected to care for that baby changed everything...IMO that's the "something" that happened!
OLG, though I can understand why you think this, we do know that Casey got good grades in school, and was only one half credit shy of graduating, which I recently read, (latest doc dump) she did complete, and has a diploma. She simply wasn't allowed to graduate with her class (cap and gown thing) So, this implies to me that she did get up everyday, go to classes, do her work, pass her tests, and get her credits. All except one class.
In other words, she wasn't skipping school, hanging out at the park, smoking dope and sleeping around during the day.
Also IIRC, the reason LE asks this is because she suddenly changed. She went from a good student and working adult to a liar and thief. They said age 20. IIRC
In the year 2005 Right after Caylee was born and came home from the hospital, Lee moved out, and so did George. Did Caylee get Lee's room, or was it a spare room? I don't know the answer to this. George moved out because Cindy found out that she was major in debt due what George said was a gambling problem, however, he tells LE that it was an email scam he got suckered from. Question; is this second story true? If we find that a male relative fathered Caylee, then we may also discover that this is when she suddenly changed. If it's true, would she feel betrayed by the people she trusted the most and tried to please, and begins to act out, with lying, stealing, verbal abuse to parents? Telling JG he is daddy so she can escape her family? then when a paternity test is done, his family rejects her, and she spirals into drinking, sleeping around, etc?
This is the Casey and family...psychological profile thread, so I think it's a proper thread to ask the questions.
Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion, and the space to ask the questions. :)

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 06:27 AM
Not trying in any way shapes of form to defend anything KC has done, but as a person with a siezure disorder I have lost long periods of time. I consealed it for 5 years until I was driving with a friend to my sisters house and half way there I forgot where I was, who I was with and where I was going. I did not have an accident she alerted me something was wrong. I had many tests and mri of brain and was found to be epileptic. I no longer drive and my siezure have become worse, but in the begining I would just space out and not remember anything.

It has been said that KC has had at least one siezure, it is entirely possible that she is in the begining stages of full blown epilespys. It took 5 years for mine to develope to that stage. It was a result of falling on ice.

Wow sorry you've had to go through that!:blowkiss:

KC had 1 seizure months before IIRC following a night of heavy drinking, Jesse doesn't know where she went or what she did when she left his apt that morning, but she came back and they both "passed out" his words not mine.

I seizure doesn't do it for me.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 06:33 AM
We also know that she lied to JG and told him he was the father. I expect this to be around her 19th birthday. This is the first time we hear a change. It's the first time we hear of her lying.
If anyone knows of lies before that please correct me. If anyone knows of stealing before she was pg, please correct my info here also.
The change appears sudden, but it could be because I don't have enough information. :)

I believe some of her other friends from HS claimed the lying started back then.

If she was still claiming to be a virgin at 7 mos gestation then we know she had been lying for a while.

RG said Jesse originally claimed KC was having female problems when he first questioned a possible pregnancy.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 06:38 AM
Thank you, that's really sweet of you!
YOUR strength is admirable, woman! I don't know if I could make it in a situation like yours, for real!! :blowkiss:

Please don't ever feel guilty (or allow her to make you feel guilty) for protecting yourself against what your daughter has allowed herself to become. You are doing the right thing! I pray she will see what she is doing to herself and get help, sooner rather than later! :blowkiss:

Thanks but I have no doubt you will face what's put in front of you, and deal. That's just what we do.:blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
12-28-2008, 06:40 AM
I believe some of her other friends from HS claimed the lying started back then.

If she was still claiming to be a virgin at 7 mos gestation then we know she had been lying for a while.

RG said Jesse originally claimed KC was having female problems when he first questioned a possible pregnancy.

Her and her mother both- you cannot tell me Cindy didn't know Casey was pregnant, look at that wedding picture, OMG! LOL

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 07:04 AM
Yes, you did hear that in the jail house conversations and Cindy also told LE in her interviews that she could detect Casey's lie if she could look her in the eyes. To me, this is a sad measure of Cindy's acceptance of outrageous behavior. She couldn't believe anything her daughter was saying at any time unless she performed this visual check. Disgusting.

Cindy never said looking in KC's eyes was the only way, she also said given time she could get the truth out of KC. (oops) I think if CA can read a lie on KC's face or eyes, she's one step up on those parents who wouldn't hear a lie if it chewed their ear off. And I've seen parents like that.

Cindy didn't believe a single thing KC said on those jail vids, watch CA's face.

I think CA was worried all along about KC's involvement, she knew KC did something. I'm sure she never thought it involved physical harm to Caylee, I think she even believed someone was setting KC up with the DNA in the car. To cover 'something' up or keep KC quiet.

No mother is going to just accept their beautiful, precious grand child is dead at their child's hand. It's not in our wiring. Sadly at some point CA's wires got disconnected and she went off the deep end, do you blame her? I don't.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 07:06 AM
Her and her mother both- you cannot tell me Cindy didn't know Casey was pregnant, look at that wedding picture, OMG! LOL


:rotfl: maybe if she studied something besides decomposition in nurses school!!

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 07:48 AM
Sorry, I missed that one with RG.
Your second point I don't understand as I was asking about lies before her telling JG he was the daddy around her 3rd month gestation.
High School friends, could you remind me who? There has been tons of info, but I don't remember anyone saying she was a habitual liar before her pregnancy. It's late though and I'm muddled up.
Thanks for the kind response though, I do appreciate it.


If I give you names right now I'll screw them up, but both people I'm thinking of are boys she had gone to school with forever, and they had always been good friends in spite of the lies evidentially. One of them was the boy CA called and told him shouldn't talk to her anymore, the other was one of the Vag Lake boys. It may have been Sean but I wouldn't swear to it tonite, it's too late.

Sorry I hadn't noticed your point, requesting info from about HS.:blushingsmiley:

Egoslayer
12-28-2008, 08:53 AM
I have debilitating migraines (they are related to epilepsy, but I have only had one siezure in my life; im not epileptic) and have lost time before. When it started happening I told my doctor, now I take meds for it and it hasn't happened since.

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 09:03 AM
How can the a's live in that house? Caylee would be haunting me!!! IMO
Do the a's watch all the tv shows about them?
Do they ever leave their house?
Does LA still work?
Interesting about how their lives have changed from shouting at the camera to complete isolation.


How can one blame them from being in complete isolation? They're grieving!! They loved that child. Their reactions to the shouting at camera was a normal reaction to being overwhelmed with all that transpired on their property, their fears, their grief. There were some real sicko's out for revenge on the family. I couldnt even begin to imagine what all they went through that we are not aware.

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 09:20 AM
As a parent of a son who has epilepsy since 11 months old, (he is 18 years old now)...and as a Parent Coordinator for support of parents with children of seizure disorders with the Epilepsy Foundation, I can assure you even if Casey had epilepsy....that has nothing to do with the murder of Caylee.

As for lost time, that would be due to petit mal seizure (absence) in which one is "functioning" but not 100% cognitively aware of every moment. Example, like a light switch turning off and on. When on...cognitive awareness. When off..."time lost".

Hence is why many young children in grade school, who may have petit mals, are thought to be "day dreaming" when in reality they are in a midst of a seizure. This can be from a minute' second to a few seconds. Rarely longer than that. Not hours, not days.

Keep in mind, however, some may have multiple petit mal (absence seizures) over and again. For example, my son was having 10-15 petit mal seizures every 5 minutes at one point. (He has 5 different types of seizure disorders. Petit mal, complex partial, simple partial, grand mal-tonic clonic and myclonic) So if we were to say "Honey, put this on the kitchen table"....we would find out he put it on the dining room table. Reason being...the seizure took place during the word "kitchen"...hence all he heard was "Honey, put this on the <seizure> table."

Epilepsy and seizures does not, in my opinion, account for any of Casey Anthony's personality, actions and/or demeanors.

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 09:26 AM
I have debilitating migraines (they are related to epilepsy, but I have only had one siezure in my life; im not epileptic) and have lost time before. When it started happening I told my doctor, now I take meds for it and it hasn't happened since.

Migraines are known to have varying degree's of effects on many people and yes, it is common to "lose time" during a migraine. Actually, there are patients that the family have rushed to the hospital thinking they were in the midst of a stroke and the patient was having a migraine.

Again, in my opinion, even if were a "physicial reason" that caused Casey to take the life of Caylee...(if we are going to talk hypothetical, here...because I believe she premeditated this out of sheer jealousy)....no physical ailment would have caused the lies, the 30 days of partying and all the other things that she did following the death of that beautiful child. She certainly was cognitively aware when she was driving cars, stealing from friends, partying, shopping, getting tattoo's, etc. No excuse, no mental incapacity, no seizures, none of that would fly by me if I were on the jury. This was pure evil narcissim, in my opinion.

Brini
12-28-2008, 09:49 AM
I believe some of her other friends from HS claimed the lying started back then.

If she was still claiming to be a virgin at 7 mos gestation then we know she had been lying for a while.

RG said Jesse originally claimed KC was having female problems when he first questioned a possible pregnancy.

But, her family was having problems long before that, with her lying and stealing. The pregnancy lie was, apparently, what finally caused the extended family rupture.

Brini
12-28-2008, 09:51 AM
:rotfl: maybe if she studied something besides decomposition in nurses school!!
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Brini
12-28-2008, 09:53 AM
Wooh! She told Jesse at 3 mos!? He lied to RG while she was lying to everyone else? I hadn't heard that before.

Sorry if I give you names right now I'll screw them up, but both people I'm thinking of are boys she had gone to school with forever, and they had always been good friends in spite of the lies evidentially. One of them was the boy CA called and told him shouldn't talk to her anymore, the other was one of the Vag Lake boys. It may have been Sean but I wouldn't swear to it tonite, it's too late.

Sorry I hadn't noticed your point, requesting info from about HS.:blushingsmiley:

It was Ryan. She knew him since age six, and he said she was always a liar. JB called him to try to get a character witness.

Brini
12-28-2008, 09:59 AM
Migraines are known to have varying degree's of effects on many people and yes, it is common to "lose time" during a migraine. Actually, there are patients that the family have rushed to the hospital thinking they were in the midst of a stroke and the patient was having a migraine.

Again, in my opinion, even if were a "physicial reason" that caused Casey to take the life of Caylee...(if we are going to talk hypothetical, here...because I believe she premeditated this out of sheer jealousy)....no physical ailment would have caused the lies, the 30 days of partying and all the other things that she did following the death of that beautiful child. She certainly was cognitively aware when she was driving cars, stealing from friends, partying, shopping, getting tattoo's, etc. No excuse, no mental incapacity, no seizures, none of that would fly by me if I were on the jury. This was pure evil narcissim, in my opinion.

And, you are correct, of course.

There is no medical record or bahavioral evidence of "lost time." in KC's background. Thee was one reported seizure, after a night of drinking. If she had any kind of level of consciousness altering neurologicql disorder, she would not have been allowed to drive.

If there had been ONE lapse of consciousness, or several, it would also not explain a concerted pattern of lying and covering up that spanned months.

KC is a sociopath, plan and simple.

nomoresorrow
12-28-2008, 11:06 AM
Well if JB does go with the "Epileptic Incapacitation" claim he goes where other's have gone before...and failed. It appears that in order for him to present a "EI" argument, the defense must enter an insanity plea. I've included a link to a case (Florida 1991) in which the defense, on appeal, claims "EI" - interesting read.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/78141/78141merits2.pdf

tiredofthis
12-28-2008, 12:32 PM
And, you are correct, of course.

There is no medical record or bahavioral evidence of "lost time." in KC's background. Thee was one reported seizure, after a night of drinking. If she had any kind of level of consciousness altering neurologicql disorder, she would not have been allowed to drive.

If there had been ONE lapse of consciousness, or several, it would also not explain a concerted pattern of lying and covering up that spanned months.

KC is a sociopath, plan and simple.

I'm not sure about not being allowed to drive. I go in for an MRI tomorrow and an EEG on Tuesday because I have had episodes of "lost time." I asked my nuerologist if I needed to stop driving until he figured out what was wrong and he said I could drive around the city, but not to drive on the highway. However, I refuse to drive until they find out what is wrong.

passionflower
12-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Not trying in any way shapes of form to defend anything KC has done, but as a person with a siezure disorder I have lost long periods of time. I consealed it for 5 years until I was driving with a friend to my sisters house and half way there I forgot where I was, who I was with and where I was going. I did not have an accident she alerted me something was wrong. I had many tests and mri of brain and was found to be epileptic. I no longer drive and my siezure have become worse, but in the begining I would just space out and not remember anything.

It has been said that KC has had at least one siezure, it is entirely possible that she is in the begining stages of full blown epilespys. It took 5 years for mine to develope to that stage. It was a result of falling on ice.

I also have zone out seizures from brain tumor, but what seems like eternity is only a minute or so. In that time period, I cannot do anything. Others just think I'm watching TV or ignoring them. Actually no one can tell unless they ask a question and I do not answer. IMO, kc didn't have a seizure, she would be on Keppra or some other drug. I think she faked it or it was drugs and alcohol. Why no doctor follow ups?

Lil'E
12-28-2008, 12:44 PM
I can assure you even if Casey had epilepsy....that has nothing to do with the murder of Caylee.

Epilepsy and seizures does not, in my opinion, account for any of Casey Anthony's personality, actions and/or demeanors.

I am so sorry about your son, it is such a terrible disorder to live with. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your child.

I also agree with what you said above, and I was not trying to make any excuses for KC's behavior. Was only commenting that one does lose track of time to the poster who was talking about what KioMarie had said about KC not remembering things that happened the day before. If it was not drug induced memory loss, it could be that she does have a health problem on top of her psychosis. I do not know of anyone with the disorder who has done anything remotely like what KC has done. She is truely demented IMHO.

passionflower
12-28-2008, 12:47 PM
YM said the kc was very hard and a diabolical liar..........evil indeed! KC remembers what is important to kc. kc blows off everything else............IMO

Lil'E
12-28-2008, 01:02 PM
I also have zone out seizures from brain tumor, but what seems like eternity is only a minute or so. In that time period, I cannot do anything. Others just think I'm watching TV or ignoring them. Actually no one can tell unless they ask a question and I do not answer. IMO, kc didn't have a seizure, she would be on Keppra or some other drug. I think she faked it or it was drugs and alcohol. Why no doctor follow ups?


Hello Passionflower.

Exactly,that is what I go through as well, nobody noticed unless they speak to me and I do not answer. My family noticed most often at meal time when I would just go blank and stare, not answering them. I don't recall anything until I snap out of it. On the other hand, I also have tonic-clonic seizure, in which I lose track of the whole day. I take 400 mg of phenytoin ex a day for mine, was on depakote but it was useless in my case.

I too think KC may have been on drugs or alcohol or possibly faked it, after all the girl was an attention hound. Surely if she really had a seizure her mother would see to it that she addressed the problem and had her meds everyday.


I am so sorry about your condition. :prayer:

Brini
12-28-2008, 01:22 PM
I'm not sure about not being allowed to drive. I go in for an MRI tomorrow and an EEG on Tuesday because I have had episodes of "lost time." I asked my nuerologist if I needed to stop driving until he figured out what was wrong and he said I could drive around the city, but not to drive on the highway. However, I refuse to drive until they find out what is wrong.

Good on you! :)

I hope your EEG yields reassuring news of a very manageable problem.

All my best wishes.:blowkiss:

Brini
12-28-2008, 01:24 PM
Not trying in any way shapes of form to defend anything KC has done, but as a person with a siezure disorder I have lost long periods of time. I consealed it for 5 years until I was driving with a friend to my sisters house and half way there I forgot where I was, who I was with and where I was going. I did not have an accident she alerted me something was wrong. I had many tests and mri of brain and was found to be epileptic. I no longer drive and my siezure have become worse, but in the begining I would just space out and not remember anything.

It has been said that KC has had at least one siezure, it is entirely possible that she is in the begining stages of full blown epilespys. It took 5 years for mine to develope to that stage. It was a result of falling on ice.

I'm sorry about your condition!:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss: :blowkiss:

Brini
12-28-2008, 01:26 PM
Thank you, that's really sweet of you!
YOUR strength is admirable, woman! I don't know if I could make it in a situation like yours, for real!! :blowkiss:

Please don't ever feel guilty (or allow her to make you feel guilty) for protecting yourself against what your daughter has allowed herself to become. You are doing the right thing! I pray she will see what she is doing to herself and get help, sooner rather than later! :blowkiss:

Exactly! And please remember.. it's Not. Your. Fault. Nothing you did made it and nothing you can do will fix it. :blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss: It's all up to her.

Brini
12-28-2008, 01:34 PM
Bolding above is mine.
I know I'm a bit late with my reponse to this post but it is bordering on my thought process through this whole Caylee crisis.

I love everyones' input.....fascinating!
I love the links especially that of Dr. Mitchell!

But the MPD aspect has been in the back of my mind for a long time and now that the defense hasn't much to go on unless Casey decides to take a deal -plead to lessor, I have been thinking about it more and more.

What if *follow along like you are interested even though you might think I might be talking out of my hat. lol*
What if "When it all comes out in court you will all be surprised/know the whole story" turns out to be "Casey has had a deep dark secret for years that she has been afraid to tell anyone. That secret is that Casey loses time. She can't remember what she did an hour ago sometimes. As an example; She will be going along just fine and suddenly find herself in her car driving but doesn't know where she was supposed to be going".

Maybe not MPD but something else, something that started happening maybe in Jr. or Sr. high?
Could there be an illness, much like alchoholics black out and don't remember what they did, where Casey blacked out or lost time and her repeated words to LE, family and anyone who'd listen were "I don't know where Caylee is" is the truth?

NOT that I am defending Casey in any way but I guess my mind can't wrap around any of the facts...that a mom, with all she had going for her, would kill a precious baby like Caylee. I'm trying to make some sense of it all...even bought the book 'Erased' by Marilee Strong in hopes of helping me come to grips with what has happened.

I'm just wondering if there isn't some medical condition that Casey has that she has been keeping secret...the whole 'perfect impression of the family' and all that she's been taught, to keep it hidden.

In my own family, when a family member finally came clean and told the family about her bipolar, the family changed the subject.
Most of the family said there is no way there could be mental illness in the family and didn't believe family member, the other members refused to discuss it with the bipolar family member and a few won't speak to bipolar family member saying she is 'sick' and 'could kill someone at any moment'.
I'm telling this because maybe Casey knew darn well what would happen if she told any family member about her losing time or not remembering instances weeks, days or even hours ago. I can imagine her family and what they would say/do!

So in Casey's family, maybe Casey would be afraid to tell anyone in her family that she was losing time and in fact really doesn't remember what happened to Caylee...especially if her family is anything like mine when it comes to sweeping things under the rug and keeping up all appearances no matter the cost.

OK, don't hit me with a wet noodle :)...I'm just rambling...trying to make some sense of it all.

There's no family recollection or medical record of KC, "losing time." She keeps VERY good track of her boyfriends' events and the happenings at Fusian.

But, I think you're right about the family. They are a lot like mine, as well.

All of the psychiatric pundits and editorialists have come to the same conclusion-- KC is a sociopath.

If she had DID (latest name for MPD), it would have been obvious from childhood. And, she would likely have been busted by one of her own "alters," spilling the beans.

BTW-- DID is ONLY found in the US, and many shrinks think it is iatrogenic (doctor-caused). This is partly because the famous MPD sufferers, like "Sybil" and "Eve" ceased to have "alters" when they changed doctors.

:)

Alpha Leader
12-28-2008, 02:51 PM
I have re-read this thread several times and find the testimonials of posters with analogous family dynamics the most informative. I have also researched the internet about personality disorders and such. In this research, I have yet to find a convincing explanation of the underlying motives of the 'enabler' in a dysfunctional family. I am convinced as other are that CA was the main enabler and the often the motive posited it that she placed a high status on appearances. At what point or level would this motive be overcome or this there a alternative motive ?

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 03:07 PM
I'm sorry. it was an assumption on my part that she told JG by her birthday, or around her third month. I shouldn't have posted that. I wasn't expecting a response, really just wanted to provoke thought as to a sudden behavior change. I deleted my post but you responded before I took it off.
Again, sorry, I have no desire to start rumors.

Noted and edited! ITA :blowkiss: there are enough rumors in this case to support 2 or 3 other cases! I had heard 2 of Jesse's recent interviews. Thought he dropped that on one I missed. It's now gone forever or at least until someone else brings it up!:crazy:

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 03:13 PM
It was Ryan. She knew him since age six, and he said she was always a liar. JB called him to try to get a character witness.

Thanks, had a touch of insomnia in here last night. Couldn't sleep but brain completely shut down. Too bad it doesn't stop my fingers too!:doh:

kageykaren
12-28-2008, 04:30 PM
The attention to the many disorders some people must learn to deal with, has been so beneficial to educating the people who read here. Knowledge is power. Just to read peoples experiences with seizure disorder, grief, personality disorders, ect... educate the masses & takes ignorance and fear away. Trust me, even ignorance is shown by eduated people as well. My sons first nuerologist assigned to him after his 6 complex partial seizure going into tonic clonic told my son and I that in his country people fish flop on the ground and think they are having a religous experiance and all it is, is a brain malfunction. This doctor spoke so flippantly so I was left to putting this doctor in his place. These discussions are one of the best blessings that have come out of this tragedy.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 04:54 PM
I have re-read this thread several times and find the testimonials of posters with analogous family dynamics the most informative. I have also researched the internet about personality disorders and such. In this research, I have yet to find a convincing explanation of the underlying motives of the 'enabler' in a dysfunctional family. I am convinced as other are that CA was the main enabler and the often the motive posited it that she placed a high status on appearances. At what point or level would this motive be overcome or this there a alternative motive ?

Hmmm...I'm guessing, an enabler will continue as long as there is personal gain (power, position, love, money; whatever the particular enabler placed in high value)

I think the relationship between KC and CA was more complicated than that. KC was the controlling force in her family, she knew it and CA knew it. CA didn't so much enable KC, as CA had no idea how to deal with KC. Exchanging control for peace in the household (or at least the appearance of peace) was CA giving up, more then giving in.

This doesn't work, will never work, when dealing with a KC. She will continue to wreck havoc, until there is nothing left. CA had finally realized she was out of her league when she went to the counselor who advised kicking KC to the curb and taking custody of Caylee.

I don't remember hearing when CA started seeing the therapist but I'll bet the timing is important. It wouldn't surprise me if therapy started around March. Changing CA was not something that happened in 1 visit. Just like everything else, it was a process.

CA taking charge and taking custody was the last straw, Caylee was getting the love that belonged to her and KC wasn't standing for that any longer. It was bad enough Caylee took so much time and effort away from KC's real interests, she was not allowing Caylee to have her position in the family as the reigning princess too. The only way for KC to insure her place in the family was to dispose of Caylee.

Think about some of the families you knew when you were growing up, there's always someone who will stand out as having the perfectly kept yard, the perfect pet, the perfectly (over kept) children who never appeared to get dirty, hair always in place, nails manicured, shoes shined. These households were run by a CA. How many of these families ever "lost" a child or grandchild the way KC "lost" Caylee?

To blame CA's personality type for KC's evil doing absolves KC of responsibility.

Noniegrace
12-28-2008, 05:28 PM
I often wonder how different things would have been if Caylee was a boy. The new princess usurping the old one is certainly (not absolutely) part of the motive. Both CA and KC have such disregard for the men in their family, how different would it have been? Maybe she'd have been allowed to adopt him out.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 05:50 PM
I also have zone out seizures from brain tumor, but what seems like eternity is only a minute or so. In that time period, I cannot do anything. Others just think I'm watching TV or ignoring them. Actually no one can tell unless they ask a question and I do not answer. IMO, kc didn't have a seizure, she would be on Keppra or some other drug. I think she faked it or it was drugs and alcohol. Why no doctor follow ups?

In the last docs there is a copy of the eval done by FD/EMT who responded to Jesse's 911 call.

Jesse told LE, following a night a heavy drinking. KC got up in the morning, left his apt and returned. He didn't know where she went or what she did. They both then "passed out" in front of the TV. When he woke a couple hours later he found her in the middle of a seizure, turned her on her side and called 911.

She was transported to the ER in an ambulance, treated and released.

We don't know that she didn't have follow up care, but one seizure after consuming mass quantities of alcohol doesn't sound like epilepsy to me. Knowing her habit of consuming alcohol on a regular basis would not make her the prime candidate for Rx therapy. If she were my PT I would take a wait and see approach. But I'm not her Dr so I'm just guessing like everyone else.:)

Luminous
12-28-2008, 05:53 PM
BTW-- DID is ONLY found in the US, and many shrinks think it is iatrogenic (doctor-caused). This is partly because the famous MPD sufferers, like "Sybil" and "Eve" ceased to have "alters" when they changed doctors.
DID is only found in the USA because the term is US-specific.

The name was changed in the US via the American Psychiatric Association's publication of the DSM-IV to reflect changes in their diagnostic criteria in 1994 (from MPD to DID), and was pushed by the non-patient seeing portions of the membership (teachers, researchers, etc).

Dr Ralph Allison has written about the change and the issues it caused (ie rather than trying to either integrate or teach the different personalities how to work in harmony so that the patient could be functional, practitioners were now, with the new diagnostic criteria, supposed to instead cure them of the delusion that they were more than one person. This was a massive shift and much less helpful from a therapeutical standpoint).

MPD is still the diagnostic term in other english speaking countries.

The name being US-only has nothing to do with the very unethical doctors who wrote sensational and highly fictionalised books about their patients.

LCoastMom
12-28-2008, 06:26 PM
I often wonder how different things would have been if Caylee was a boy. The new princess usurping the old one is certainly (not absolutely) part of the motive. Both CA and KC have such disregard for the men in their family, how different would it have been? Maybe she'd have been allowed to adopt him out.

Interesting.

CA and GA both seem to hold Lee in high regard. Remember CA saying to KC in one of the jail visits that Lee is holding the family together?

A baby boy would have been a different dynamic in the family and wouldn't have threatened KC's position as princess.

Brini
12-28-2008, 08:39 PM
DID is only found in the USA because the term is US-specific.

The name was changed in the US via the American Psychiatric Association's publication of the DSM-IV to reflect changes in their diagnostic criteria in 1994 (from MPD to DID), and was pushed by the non-patient seeing portions of the membership (teachers, researchers, etc).

Dr Ralph Allison has written about the change and the issues it caused (ie rather than trying to either integrate or teach the different personalities how to work in harmony so that the patient could be functional, practitioners were now, with the new diagnostic criteria, supposed to instead cure them of the delusion that they were more than one person. This was a massive shift and much less helpful from a therapeutical standpoint).

MPD is still the diagnostic term in other english speaking countries.

The name being US-only has nothing to do with the very unethical doctors who wrote sensational and highly fictionalised books about their patients.

Interesting. Thanks!

I was a psych case manager in the 80s, during the MPD psychiatric fad. Borderlines with generous insurance maxes were dxed: MPD 2nd to Satanic Ritual Abuse. One particular hospital in So. CA was in the forefront of the fad. Pts.were often so diagnosed after amytal interviews.

The hospital psych program lost it's credentialling. It's medical director was often called, "A sociopath with a license, " by other shrinks.

A number of the patients got much better and clearer after they changed treators. Some sued the hospital.

Nasty era, that.

Brini
12-28-2008, 08:41 PM
Interesting.

CA and GA both seem to hold Lee in high regard. Remember CA saying to KC in one of the jail visits that Lee is holding the family together?

A baby boy would have been a different dynamic in the family and wouldn't have threatened KC's position as princess.

A poster opined that LA might function as the "peacemaker" between the two women.

Brini
12-28-2008, 08:42 PM
Thanks, had a touch of insomnia in here last night. Couldn't sleep but brain completely shut down. Too bad it doesn't stop my fingers too!:doh:

:):):):):):blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss: :blowkiss:

Brini
12-28-2008, 08:43 PM
The attention to the many disorders some people must learn to deal with, has been so beneficial to educating the people who read here. Knowledge is power. Just to read peoples experiences with seizure disorder, grief, personality disorders, ect... educate the masses & takes ignorance and fear away. Trust me, even ignorance is shown by eduated people as well. My sons first nuerologist assigned to him after his 6 complex partial seizure going into tonic clonic told my son and I that in his country people fish flop on the ground and think they are having a religous experiance and all it is, is a brain malfunction. This doctor spoke so flippantly so I was left to putting this doctor in his place. These discussions are one of the best blessings that have come out of this tragedy.
:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss: :blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

Brini
12-28-2008, 08:44 PM
Hmmm...I'm guessing, an enabler will continue as long as there is personal gain (power, position, love, money; whatever the particular enabler placed in high value)

I think the relationship between KC and CA was more complicated than that. KC was the controlling force in her family, she knew it and CA knew it. CA didn't so much enable KC, as CA had no idea how to deal with KC. Exchanging control for peace in the household (or at least the appearance of peace) was CA giving up, more then giving in.

This doesn't work, will never work, when dealing with a KC. She will continue to wreck havoc, until there is nothing left. CA had finally realized she was out of her league when she went to the counselor who advised kicking KC to the curb and taking custody of Caylee.

I don't remember hearing when CA started seeing the therapist but I'll bet the timing is important. It wouldn't surprise me if therapy started around March. Changing CA was not something that happened in 1 visit. Just like everything else, it was a process.

CA taking charge and taking custody was the last straw, Caylee was getting the love that belonged to her and KC wasn't standing for that any longer. It was bad enough Caylee took so much time and effort away from KC's real interests, she was not allowing Caylee to have her position in the family as the reigning princess too. The only way for KC to insure her place in the family was to dispose of Caylee.

Think about some of the families you knew when you were growing up, there's always someone who will stand out as having the perfectly kept yard, the perfect pet, the perfectly (over kept) children who never appeared to get dirty, hair always in place, nails manicured, shoes shined. These households were run by a CA. How many of these families ever "lost" a child or grandchild the way KC "lost" Caylee?

To blame CA's personality type for KC's evil doing absolves KC of responsibility.
Tru dat!

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 10:44 PM
Well if JB does go with the "Epileptic Incapacitation" claim he goes where other's have gone before...and failed. It appears that in order for him to present a "EI" argument, the defense must enter an insanity plea. I've included a link to a case (Florida 1991) in which the defense, on appeal, claims "EI" - interesting read.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/78141/78141merits2.pdf

I don't see that ever happening. Not for Casey Anthony. The man you are talking about was not only epileptic, but also was brain damaged and mentally retarded. Again, they can enter an insanity defense, however, I don't see that happening because she was aware of all she was doing for the 31 days following. She's not insane. Nor could temporary insanity work because I don't believe JB is going to go with anything except a "not guilty -someone else did it" defense. It would take a LOT to convince a jury that she had temporary insanity. I just don't see that happening.

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 10:46 PM
I'm not sure about not being allowed to drive. I go in for an MRI tomorrow and an EEG on Tuesday because I have had episodes of "lost time." I asked my nuerologist if I needed to stop driving until he figured out what was wrong and he said I could drive around the city, but not to drive on the highway. However, I refuse to drive until they find out what is wrong.

Personally? That is a silly answer for a neurologist to give you. You are correct. You should not be driving. Have they also checked you for diabetes?

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 10:49 PM
I am so sorry about your son, it is such a terrible disorder to live with. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your child.

I also agree with what you said above, and I was not trying to make any excuses for KC's behavior. Was only commenting that one does lose track of time to the poster who was talking about what KioMarie had said about KC not remembering things that happened the day before. If it was not drug induced memory loss, it could be that she does have a health problem on top of her psychosis. I do not know of anyone with the disorder who has done anything remotely like what KC has done. She is truely demented IMHO.

Thanks. We are very lucky. My son had status epileptus twice when he was 4 years old. That means he went into grand mal seizures and would not stop. They had to induce him to a brain coma to put his brain "to sleep" to save his life. He is one of the very lucky folks to have so many different seizure disorders and to have found the right combination of medications to control them. Thank heaven! He is also with a lot of short term memory due to the frontal lobe scars from so many seizures and he also has Aspergers, a form of autism, OCD and a few other things. He is handsome young man and has amazing "Dr. Doolittle" abilities :)

Lavanda Dolce
12-28-2008, 10:59 PM
I have re-read this thread several times and find the testimonials of posters with analogous family dynamics the most informative. I have also researched the internet about personality disorders and such. In this research, I have yet to find a convincing explanation of the underlying motives of the 'enabler' in a dysfunctional family. I am convinced as other are that CA was the main enabler and the often the motive posited it that she placed a high status on appearances. At what point or level would this motive be overcome or this there a alternative motive ?


It is most probably the reason Cindy is an enabler is because of her own lack of self esteem and her fear that her own child would "write her off" in her life. Her fears are somewhat justified as that is pretty much what Casey ended up doing. Cindy finally woke up and sought therapy and made it clear to Casey that she would take Caylee and raise her. She couldn't handle her lies anymore. Enablers are usually those who DO try and fix problems and in essence, due to their own low self esteem, cannot see that by letting one manipulate them to the point of "fear of losing them in their life" that they are in fact.........enablers.

It would be very difficult to write any child off that was like Casey........PRIOR to what happened to Caylee.....because as parents one wants to help their children and do whatever they can to get them help....and up to the point of the stolen money, Cindy probably did a lot of "justifying" and "reasoning". (ex: Well, she's never been arrested. She does have friends. She can be nice. Maybe it's hormones? Maybe she is having it tough raising a baby alone. etc.etc.) Once the stolen money came into the pic, I think is when Cindy realized a lot is out of control and hence she went to get herself therapy...perhaps to gain strength to do what she needed to do. Throw Casey out and take custody of Caylee. Unfortunately, tables turned. The minute Casey got wind........she took care of everything in the most horrid way possible.

Again, I can't blame Cindy too much here. She was a victim in this as well. I think her myspace letter that she purposely wrote was her way of trying to get Casey to "talk to her".

CINDY's MYSPACE LETTER:
Thursday, July 03, 2008
my caylee is missing
Current mood: distraught

She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?

Marple
12-28-2008, 11:05 PM
CA taking charge and taking custody was the last straw, Caylee was getting the love that belonged to her and KC wasn't standing for that any longer. It was bad enough Caylee took so much time and effort away from KC's real interests, she was not allowing Caylee to have her position in the family as the reigning princess too. The only way for KC to insure her place in the family was to dispose of Caylee.


I agree with your post but I think also that KC felt threatened because if her mom got custody of Caylee, what did that mean for her (KC)? As long as she was Caylee's mother, she had some very effective leverage with the gp's.

KC's gravy train was coming to a screeching halt if she lost the ability to manipulate her mother and father with Caylee.

nomoresorrow
12-28-2008, 11:08 PM
I don't see that ever happening. Not for Casey Anthony. The man you are talking about was not only epileptic, but also was brain damaged and mentally retarded. Again, they can enter an insanity defense, however, I don't see that happening because she was aware of all she was doing for the 31 days following. She's not insane. Nor could temporary insanity work because I don't believe JB is going to go with anything except a "not guilty -someone else did it" defense. It would take a LOT to convince a jury that she had temporary insanity. I just don't see that happening.

100% agreement - there was discussion & speculation(s) about KC possibly being epileptic, having gaps in time/memory...just thought I'd see what I could find on prior cases using/attempting to use EI, came across this and put put the link and like you mentioned this guy not only was epileptic, he had brain damage & MR and it still didn't fly.

passionflower
12-29-2008, 10:16 AM
1107new family photo? death grip on LA leg from mom???? darn I can't get it to copy over!
I don't know if I am allowed to say it is on *************.......look!

metalcrystal
12-29-2008, 01:25 PM
new family photo? death grip on LA leg from mom???? darn I can't get it to copy over!
I don't know if I am allowed to say it is on *************.......look!

Actually Passionflower, that is from the first National TV interview, GMA? And CA was STROKING his leg the whole time, and I remember thinking, how freakin' wierd that was! So glad you brought this up. That was one of the first things I thought was VERY odd about the A's.

mitzi
12-29-2008, 01:31 PM
I agree. She enjoys seeing news clips about herself on tv, and enjoys the celebrity she feels 'she holds'. Yeah, she's a legend in her own mind! lol!

I wonder if she realizes she's infamous, as is Charlie Manson and Ted Bundy, and all those other 'fine folks'!

ITA sweetmop, and also I remember KC carrying the "media binder" with her to JB's during her long hours spent there during home confinement. She and CA both seem to enjoy the "limelight" and "rehashing" their media events, via the articles in their binders. :rolleyes:

LCoastMom
12-29-2008, 02:53 PM
ITA sweetmop, and also I remember KC carrying the "media binder" with her to JB's during her long hours spent there during home confinement. She and CA both seem to enjoy the "limelight" and "rehashing" their media events, via the articles in their binders. :rolleyes:

Is it possible they were doing this with 2 different agendas? If my child or grandchild were missing I can see doing this as "See here's another avenue of getting the story out there." While KC is saying "I'm more famous than a rock star, see here I am again."

One thing I've learned by this, what I remember CA saying at the start. She would do anything to keep Caylee's picture out there. I would put in writing; "If you want my picture fine, I'll act like a monkey if you want, but if you're going to use my picture I want a picture twice the size of mine with my missing child." It's the only way I would agree to do anything.

I was looking for an old article recently and saw a lot of the old print stories the A's did. I am shocked at the way they were taken advantage of, they must have aligned themselves with every user out there. It's really too bad who they chose to go with and how they turned away or turned down all the people who could have gotten them through this with their dignity intact.

indicat
12-29-2008, 02:56 PM
Her and her mother both- you cannot tell me Cindy didn't know Casey was pregnant, look at that wedding picture, OMG! LOL

Now this is something I will just never understand. You hear about it all the time, people who dont recognize a pregnancy and it just boggles my mind. Where I work we go across the street to a convienance store on break and get pretty friendly with the girls who work there. A slender girl of KC's build started getting bigger in the middle and we just assumed she was pregnant and asked her when she was due. She was kind of offended and said she just puts on weight in the middle and she was not pregnant. Well at first we felt dumb and thought oops...but as the months went on her stomache got bigger and bigger, but nothing else on her body did. This was a pregnant belly, there was no doubt about it, she still wore belly shirts and low cut pants, her belly was round and firm. We would discuss this and could not fathom how she did not know she was pregnant when we all did! We wondered if we were going to hear about her giving birth in the bathroom, her co workers insisted no, she was not pregnant. Thank goodness at 8 months she decided to go to a doctor and admit she was pregnant. Having witnessed this first hand I just cant believe that unless you dont want to know you cant see it. CA must not have even wanted to know is all I can figure. :confused:

LCoastMom
12-29-2008, 03:04 PM
Actually Passionflower, that is from the first National TV interview, GMA? And CA was STROKING his leg the whole time, and I remember thinking, how freakin' wierd that was! So glad you brought this up. That was one of the first things I thought was VERY odd about the A's.

You know I think CA is a very tactile person. She is soothed by this, even when she thinks she's doing the soothing. Maybe it's just a nervous tick.

She did the same thing to JB the night KC was arrested the second time and to Rob when they went to talk to LP about the memorial service.

Lavanda Dolce
12-29-2008, 10:20 PM
1107new family photo? death grip on LA leg from mom???? darn I can't get it to copy over!
I don't know if I am allowed to say it is on *************.......look!


No. That is an older photo taken when they were on the morning news show. Probably back in August if I recall.

Capri
12-29-2008, 10:34 PM
1107new family photo? death grip on LA leg from mom???? darn I can't get it to copy over!
I don't know if I am allowed to say it is on *************.......look!

I know this is an early-in-the-case pic, but it is so telling. CA's hand is way up on LA's thigh, much higher on the thigh than the average 20-something guy would feel comfortable with his mother doing. Boundary issues showing here. Also interesting is the "blocking" LA is doing with his hands.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/photologie/Anthonys_small.jpg

metalcrystal
12-29-2008, 10:48 PM
You know I think CA is a very tactile person. She is soothed by this, even when she thinks she's doing the soothing. Maybe it's just a nervous tick.

She did the same thing to JB the night KC was arrested the second time and to Rob when they went to talk to LP about the memorial service.

Yep, all men. Interesting.

Lavanda Dolce
12-30-2008, 04:32 AM
I know this is an early-in-the-case pic, but it is so telling. CA's hand is way up on LA's thigh, much higher on the thigh than the average 20-something guy would feel comfortable with his mother doing. Boundary issues showing here. Also interesting is the "blocking" LA is doing with his hands.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/photologie/Anthonys_small.jpg


I don't see anything perverse or wrong with Cindy grabbing on to Lee's leg in that manner. It appears to me that is a grip of "I can't do this alone"...note George is also holding her other hand. Remember folks, this woman was suffering terribly and worried and the aura of all the camera's, news, etc. had to have been overwhelming to say the least.
By the way...I question more why Lee is not holding on to his mom? What is he keeping clenched away from her? I still cannot help but to think that he has more involvement in this than what we know.

Alpha Leader
12-30-2008, 09:14 AM
This is not the first picture of CA doing a lot of touching. During the LP deal and the divers at JBP there is a video of her hanging onto one of LP's associates, a lingering hug. Then in a picture in their front lawn, another hug, with GA in the picture staring off in some random direction like he is bird watching or something.

One thing I have noticed in the posts is that some of these behaviors seem odd to some and normal to others. This is why I think examples of other peoples behaviors are so informative, because, just observing the picture posted and the others, my impression of CA is that there is something smoldering underneath that causes this behavior. I feel this way mainly because I do not really know anyone first hand who exhibits a similar behavior.

metalcrystal
12-30-2008, 11:45 AM
I don't see anything perverse or wrong with Cindy grabbing on to Lee's leg in that manner. It appears to me that is a grip of "I can't do this alone"...note George is also holding her other hand. Remember folks, this woman was suffering terribly and worried and the aura of all the camera's, news, etc. had to have been overwhelming to say the least.
By the way...I question more why Lee is not holding on to his mom? What is he keeping clenched away from her? I still cannot help but to think that he has more involvement in this than what we know.

The way she strokes on men is NOT normal for a 50 yr. old housewife, at least not in my world. She even was hanging on Yuri and calling the detctives "hon". Too much familiarity, no matter what you are going thru. My family is very affectionate but I would not be stroking my son's thigh, he would have his arm around me, and so would my husband. But my husband would flip out if I was stroking mens backs, that I barely knew. To us, it seems very inapproriate.
And no offense, but i havent seen CA overwhelmed yet in ANY way.

kageykaren
12-30-2008, 12:03 PM
I have been watching the beavior of the A's like Diane Fossy watches gorillas in the mist. Socialally they seem to not fit in with the pack. CA's possible overaffectionate behavior is a way to try and control a conversation. KC even uses this form of manipulative conversation with males & females. It is true passive aggressive behavior & that folks is a learned behavior verses brain disorder. GA & LA are right there with the women displaying those behaviors. Can we count how many times we the public have witnessed these behaviors right in front of the camera?

metalcrystal
12-30-2008, 12:15 PM
I have been watching the beavior of the A's like Diane Fossy watches gorillas in the mist. Socialally they seem to not fit in with the pack. CA's possible overaffectionate behavior is a way to try and control a conversation. KC even uses this form of manipulative conversation with males & females. It is true passive aggressive behavior & that folks is a learned behavior verses brain disorder. GA & LA are right there with the women displaying those behaviors. Can we count how many times we the public have witnessed these behaviors right in front of the camera?

I think you are right on Karen. like the analogy, too.

Capri
12-30-2008, 12:55 PM
The way she strokes on men is NOT normal for a 50 yr. old housewife, at least not in my world. She even was hanging on Yuri and calling the detctives "hon". Too much familiarity, no matter what you are going thru. My family is very affectionate but I would not be stroking my son's thigh, he would have his arm around me, and so would my husband. But my husband would flip out if I was stroking mens backs, that I barely knew. To us, it seems very inapproriate.
And no offense, but i havent seen CA overwhelmed yet in ANY way.

No way is CA "overwhelmed", she's very much in control in this photo. She has a grip on both people that she needs to keep in check.

People have different levels of what is comfortable and acceptable(even if inappropriate) in their families. This pic, IMHO, shows that CA is comfortable with her hand very high on LA's thigh, and LA is willing to allow her to do that, although, he is not reciprocating, and his hands are clasped together, in a more "closed" position (i.e. I'll let you put your hand there, but I don't like it). Reading too much into it? Maybe yes, maybe no.

kageykaren
12-30-2008, 01:11 PM
:woohoo: Watch the LK video again. I actually got a laugh off of their interview. CA is Clatching, (funny word) onto GA's leg so hard under that desk that she starts leaning like the tower of piza that she just about falls over. Makes me think CA has those guys by the b---s all the time. We were all so serious to see what they would say in the interview that it takes a second look at watching what they don't say and watching the interaction between CA & GA. Let me know if you found them alittle comical too.

kageykaren
12-30-2008, 01:13 PM
Watch the LK video again. I actually got a laugh off of their interview. CA is Clatching, (funny word) onto GA's leg so hard under that desk that she starts leaning like the tower of piza that she just about falls over. Makes me think CA has those guys by the b---s all the time.

metalcrystal
12-30-2008, 02:15 PM
Karen, I know, she was finishing his sentences and interrupting him. It was a waste, a huge waste. But at least they got to stay someplace nice.

Nosey Parker
12-30-2008, 02:33 PM
That is definitely a "watch what you say" clutch. My son is just a little older than LA, and we are very close. However, he would never accept me holding his thigh, other than a quick squeeze of the knee as encouragement or congratulation for something. Nor would I dream of embarrassing him in that way. He would, though, be very protective of me in that situation and would be holding my hand, or have his arm around me.

I find this picture to be a snap of a dysfunctional family, no matter the circumstances.

Nosey Parker
12-30-2008, 02:39 PM
I don't see anything perverse or wrong with Cindy grabbing on to Lee's leg in that manner. It appears to me that is a grip of "I can't do this alone"...note George is also holding her other hand. Remember folks, this woman was suffering terribly and worried and the aura of all the camera's, news, etc. had to have been overwhelming to say the least.
By the way...I question more why Lee is not holding on to his mom? What is he keeping clenched away from her? I still cannot help but to think that he has more involvement in this than what we know.

My bold: I do not see George holding her hand - I see her holding George's hand, and in a very awkward position too - not as though he offered it, but rather that she has pulled it over toward her.

All three of their faces show aggression and defiance, even in those early days. They don't look overwhelmed about the camera to me.

passionflower
12-30-2008, 05:10 PM
I know this is an early-in-the-case pic, but it is so telling. CA's hand is way up on LA's thigh, much higher on the thigh than the average 20-something guy would feel comfortable with his mother doing. Boundary issues showing here. Also interesting is the "blocking" LA is doing with his hands.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/photologie/Anthonys_small.jpg

My grown son would have a fit if I touched his leg like that. His arm, shoulder, hand but thigh?????? IMO esp for a news pix. Actually my son and hubby would be holding me and I would be in tears..........

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 08:40 AM
The way she strokes on men is NOT normal for a 50 yr. old housewife, at least not in my world. She even was hanging on Yuri and calling the detctives "hon". Too much familiarity, no matter what you are going thru. My family is very affectionate but I would not be stroking my son's thigh, he would have his arm around me, and so would my husband. But my husband would flip out if I was stroking mens backs, that I barely knew. To us, it seems very inapproriate.
And no offense, but i havent seen CA overwhelmed yet in ANY way.


I don't recall seeing her "strokes" on men...at least nothing that stands out. Remember, you only see what the media wants you to see. They are only going to show you breakdown or bizarre moments. Rare "normal moments". I cannot imagine how you cannot see how CA has been overwhelmed given the extreme weight loss, the circus in her yard, the strangers who come out and verbally attack her, etc. I thought she handled herself very well when that old lady starts screaming at her about 3 inches from her face. How can you not see she is overwhelmed with fear, grief, and worry throughout the entire time Caylee has been missing?

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 08:51 AM
My grown son would have a fit if I touched his leg like that. His arm, shoulder, hand but thigh?????? IMO esp for a news pix. Actually my son and hubby would be holding me and I would be in tears..........

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/11cayleencmc_Family.jpg

Well, it looks like I am the minority here. LOL. I just can't see what you all are seeing in this pic. I'll tell you what I see.

I see that Lee is hiding something. Something he does not want his mom to know...perhaps he is hiding the fact that his true belief is that Caylee is dead and Casey did it and he doesn't want his mom to know that is his TRUE inner belief?...........hence the clutched hands held close.

I see Cindy as having fear the highest possible and grabbing to anyone and everyone who will listen to her plea's that her granddaughter IS alive....and holding on to those two next to her as if to say "please tell them. Tell them for me that she is not dead she is alive! Casey did not kill her daughter". This woman was in such denial...and wouldn't surprise me if she still is.

I see George as totally "zombie like" in that he is waiting for Cindy to fix all this for him. His "I don't know what to do" face comes through in this photo pretty loud and clear to me. That's what I see.

I don't see manipulation nor anything perverse in this pic. I see pure denial, fear and pain.

PaulaF513
12-31-2008, 09:10 AM
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/11cayleencmc_Family.jpg

Well, it looks like I am the minority here. LOL. I just can't see what you all are seeing in this pic. I'll tell you what I see.

I see that Lee is hiding something. Something he does not want his mom to know...perhaps he is hiding the fact that his true belief is that Caylee is dead and Casey did it and he doesn't want his mom to know that is his TRUE inner belief?...........hence the clutched hands held close.

I see Cindy as having fear the highest possible and grabbing to anyone and everyone who will listen to her plea's that her granddaughter IS alive....and holding on to those two next to her as if to say "please tell them. Tell them for me that she is not dead she is alive! Casey did not kill her daughter". This woman was in such denial...and wouldn't surprise me if she still is.

I see George as totally "zombie like" in that he is waiting for Cindy to fix all this for him. His "I don't know what to do" face comes through in this photo pretty loud and clear to me. That's what I see.

I don't see manipulation nor anything perverse in this pic. I see pure denial, fear and pain.
Very astute interpretation Lavanda...I completely agree with you.

Another thing that should be noted is Cindy's profession as a nurse. A lot of nurses touch because touching is associated with comforting and helping. Touching is something that she has probably done almost subconsciously throughout the years. Now she is the one who really needs comforting and she automatically reaches out..to anyone who can potentially soothe her intense fear.

Noexcuse
12-31-2008, 10:12 AM
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/11cayleencmc_Family.jpg

Well, it looks like I am the minority here. LOL. I just can't see what you all are seeing in this pic. I'll tell you what I see.

I see that Lee is hiding something. Something he does not want his mom to know...perhaps he is hiding the fact that his true belief is that Caylee is dead and Casey did it and he doesn't want his mom to know that is his TRUE inner belief?...........hence the clutched hands held close.

I see Cindy as having fear the highest possible and grabbing to anyone and everyone who will listen to her plea's that her granddaughter IS alive....and holding on to those two next to her as if to say "please tell them. Tell them for me that she is not dead she is alive! Casey did not kill her daughter". This woman was in such denial...and wouldn't surprise me if she still is.

I see George as totally "zombie like" in that he is waiting for Cindy to fix all this for him. His "I don't know what to do" face comes through in this photo pretty loud and clear to me. That's what I see.

I don't see manipulation nor anything perverse in this pic. I see pure denial, fear and pain.

I also agree with your analysis of this picture. We have to remember that Cindy's role in this family has always been the driving force. She has been the sole/main provider for a family of 5. She has juggled the roles of Mother, Wife, Breadwinner, Housekeeper,Counselor,Grandmother, dutiful daughter of elderly parents,etc...
I personally believe that it takes a very strong woman to maintain these duties and with that strength comes characteristics that are often perceived as harsh or controlling or even bitc..
It takes a lot to juggle all of those balls at once and you know that she is constantly telling herself whatever it takes to maintain her sanity and her household.
I cannot even imagine how hard it must be to live under so much public scrutiny where every single word or action is held up for critical analysis to find fault and crucify her.
With the advantage of hindsight I am sure that she would have taken many different paths in life and her choices would have been different on many occasions as would we all.
Everyone deals with pain, loss, regrets and chaotic family crisis in their own way, can we all just agree to allow her deal with these emotions in whatever way is right for her. When you have always felt like you have had to be the strong one, the one who holds it all together for the sake of everyone else, it is very difficult to come to terms with your personal vulnerability and the fact that you might need a shoulder to lean on.
Don't get me wrong. I don't see Cindy as some type of Saint or even ideal Mother. I see her more as a normal woman with inherent flaws just like the rest of us. Trying to live through and deal with and indescribably difficult family crisis.
I cannot bring myself to vilify or sit in judgment of her at this time.

God Bless and Happy New Year fellow WS'ers

Capri
12-31-2008, 10:24 AM
That is definitely a "watch what you say" clutch. My son is just a little older than LA, and we are very close. However, he would never accept me holding his thigh, other than a quick squeeze of the knee as encouragement or congratulation for something. Nor would I dream of embarrassing him in that way. He would, though, be very protective of me in that situation and would be holding my hand, or have his arm around me.

I find this picture to be a snap of a dysfunctional family, no matter the circumstances.

Definitely a dysfunctional family.

songline
12-31-2008, 10:35 AM
Now this is something I will just never understand. You hear about it all the time, people who dont recognize a pregnancy and it just boggles my mind. Where I work we go across the street to a convienance store on break and get pretty friendly with the girls who work there. A slender girl of KC's build started getting bigger in the middle and we just assumed she was pregnant and asked her when she was due. She was kind of offended and said she just puts on weight in the middle and she was not pregnant. Well at first we felt dumb and thought oops...but as the months went on her stomache got bigger and bigger, but nothing else on her body did. This was a pregnant belly, there was no doubt about it, she still wore belly shirts and low cut pants, her belly was round and firm. We would discuss this and could not fathom how she did not know she was pregnant when we all did! We wondered if we were going to hear about her giving birth in the bathroom, her co workers insisted no, she was not pregnant. Thank goodness at 8 months she decided to go to a doctor and admit she was pregnant. Having witnessed this first hand I just cant believe that unless you don't want to know you cant see it. CA must not have even wanted to know is all I can figure. :confused:


Big difference is that CA is a nurse. I can not imagine someone in the medical field not knowing...
I can only imagine her pretending not to know, or being in extreme denial.

reeseeva
12-31-2008, 11:08 AM
I was thinking of starting a thread for this question, but felt it would probably be Bumped here.

I have read alot here of personal experiences with people like Casey, & explanations of personality disorders, etc.

I feel the outrage with people like her, Joran Van Der S., & many more, seem to be a total lack of Empathy coupled with an arrogant bravado & no fear! I have read that this is indictive of sociopathic behavior & understand what it is.

My question is: Is it our society, the "world in which we live" that is contributing to, what seems to me, a growing number of particularly younger people affected with this? Also, since the inception of the internet, video games & the ever accelerating, information gathering, overloading world we are now forced to keep up with, it begs the question is "sensory overload =Sensory Depravation?

Would love to hear from the experts on this.

Knot4u2no
12-31-2008, 11:43 AM
I was thinking of starting a thread for this question, but felt it would probably be Bumped here.

I have read alot here of personal experiences with people like Casey, & explanations of personality disorders, etc.

I feel the outrage with people like her, Joran Van Der S., & many more, seem to be a total lack of Empathy coupled with an arrogant bravado & no fear! I have read that this is indictive of sociopathic behavior & understand what it is.

My question is: Is it our society, the "world in which we live" that is contributing to, what seems to me, a growing number of particularly younger people affected with this? Also, since the inception of the internet, video games & the ever accelerating, information gathering, overloading world we are now forced to keep up with, it begs the question is "sensory overload =Sensory Depravation?

Would love to hear from the experts on this.

I’m no expert, but I do think our culture and its various subcultures increasingly diminish sensitivity to others and critical thinking skills, and assault individuality, personal responsibility and the family unit. Long term relationships are devalued and difficult to maintain. Immediate gratification and sensory experiences are valued, while long term goals and understanding matters of life and living are disesteemed. Lying, cheating and stealing are increasingly considered an essential norm for success, and the laws of the jungle take priority over matters of principle and adaptive developmental efforts. Certainly, these and related factors contribute to a culture of narcissism and personal gain at the expense of others. It is pleasure driven and propagated by the news media as much as the entertainment media, which are increasingly the same media. The basic concepts of good management are increasingly out of the conceptual range of teenagers and young adults. There are other cultures that are as self-destructive as ours due to their own underlying problems, but our self-serving, narrow minded, self-destructive development is actively reinforced by our motivation and related beliefs, values and value judgments. Society did not make the choices for Casey, but you can certainly see our culture in Casey. I think that is a caveat worth noting.

Just my opinions,
Russell

reeseeva
12-31-2008, 12:14 PM
I’m no expert, but I do think our culture and its various subcultures increasingly diminish sensitivity to others and critical thinking skills, and assault individuality, personal responsibility and the family unit. Long term relationships are devalued and difficult to maintain. Immediate gratification and sensory experiences are valued, while long term goals and understanding matters of life and living are disesteemed. Lying, cheating and stealing are increasingly considered an essential norm for success, and the laws of the jungle take priority over matters of principle and adaptive developmental efforts. Certainly, these and related factors contribute to a culture of narcissism and personal gain at the expense of others. It is pleasure driven and propagated by the news media as much as the entertainment media, which are increasingly the same media. The basic concepts of good management are increasingly out of the conceptual range of teenagers and young adults. There are other cultures that are as self-destructive as ours due to their own underlying problems, but our self-serving, narrow minded, self-destructive development is actively reinforced by our motivation and related beliefs, values and value judgments. Society did not make the choices for Casey, but you can certainly see our culture in Casey. I think that is a caveat worth noting.:clap::clap:


Just my opinions,
Russell

Well said, Bravo! & Thank you for such an articulate, clear interpretation of where I feel, sadly, our society is these days. We are seeing this played out daily in Government, Wall Street & many other sectors. It is running rampant & becomming acceptable to live with these inummerable transgressions. There is little or no consequence to these Crimes against our society.

kageykaren
12-31-2008, 12:49 PM
Everything increases with time, even criminal behavior. Society is going to have to figure out how we are going to deal with the influx of societies outcast. Some students of psychology are writing there thesises on housing this sect of society on islands? This subject will be a hot debate in our futures.

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 04:28 PM
NoExcuse....my thoughts exactly. Excellent post.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/HappyNewYear.gif

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 04:41 PM
I’m no expert, but I do think our culture and its various subcultures increasingly diminish sensitivity to others and critical thinking skills, and assault individuality, personal responsibility and the family unit. Long term relationships are devalued and difficult to maintain. Immediate gratification and sensory experiences are valued, while long term goals and understanding matters of life and living are disesteemed. Lying, cheating and stealing are increasingly considered an essential norm for success, and the laws of the jungle take priority over matters of principle and adaptive developmental efforts. Certainly, these and related factors contribute to a culture of narcissism and personal gain at the expense of others. It is pleasure driven and propagated by the news media as much as the entertainment media, which are increasingly the same media. The basic concepts of good management are increasingly out of the conceptual range of teenagers and young adults. There are other cultures that are as self-destructive as ours due to their own underlying problems, but our self-serving, narrow minded, self-destructive development is actively reinforced by our motivation and related beliefs, values and value judgments. Society did not make the choices for Casey, but you can certainly see our culture in Casey. I think that is a caveat worth noting.

Just my opinions,
Russell

One must not overlook the environmental "toxic contributions" to society: Preservatives, chemicals, inorganic chemical residues, caffeine, nicotine, cola, radiation exposure, food preservatives, chemicals, vaccination poisons,
pesticides/insecticides, industrial pollution, mercury, lead,exhaust, cool combustion, Free-on,herbicides and pesticides, household detergents, industrial dust, auto exhaust ,air pollution, adhesives, air conditioner filters, talc and body powder, broken thermometers, cosmetics, all plastics, diuretics, fabric softeners, floor waxes/polishes, fungicides, medications, over the counter and prescribed,industrial waste, laxatives, mercurochrome,hair dyes, cigarette smoke,solvents, radiation exposure, asbestos ....we could go on and on...all of these as contributing factors. It's not just about "green" and our "ozone". It's about what is allowed to be processed and entered into our bodies by our own manufacturers.

PS. If you all think bottled water is 100% spring water. Think again. You're better off drinking tap water. It is monitored and regulated. Bottled water contains a minimum of 6 chemicals used in the processing. The "glitch"? It doesn't have to be listed as an ingredient because of a loophole that classifies it as a "processing method" and not an ingredient. Good ol' FDA, eh?

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 04:52 PM
There is NO Shame anymore...........


Reeseeva, I will tell you that I do put blame in those around my generation of the baby boomers for this one. We grew up in overly abusive households and our "ideal family" dreams were watching the Brady Bunch and how they handled life crisis. They sat all the children on the couch and talked. They did not smack them with belts and switches. Hence, I believe my generation began the trend in the complete opposite direction. "Let's sit and talk about it"...as opposed to punishment and or discipline. (Which I believe a good swat on the behind is completely appropriate when your three year old decides to stick a key in an outlet.)....unfortunately, it was carried too far in the opposite direction and we now have an era of 20-year somethings that lack self control and self discipline....because it was not taught, nor feared, to begin with. I can remember shaking all the way home from school with a D math paper knowing my mom would have to sign it. I don't think the majority of children have those fears as such anymore. (not all anyhow) There are so many excuses, diagnostic misdiagnosis to justify behaviors...etc. Parents who are too busy in the corporate world and our fast paced society, as well. (fast, faster and fastest wins)

Lavanda Dolce
12-31-2008, 04:53 PM
Ha! Here I am posting a reply to myself ;) More on fast...faster...fastest:

Funny thing is, and I know it's completely off the subject...hubby and I went to a very well known restaraunt chain. He ordered a steak and sent it back. It was very thin and what we would call a "breakfast steak". The restaraunt manager said they changed all their places to accommodate to what the people ask for. My husband said "What's that ? A thin steak? Is everyone on diets?"....(lol) and the manager said ..."No." People want fast service. They want to order a steak dinner and have it in 8 minutes. Hence we changed the thickness.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHH. No fair. No fun. He said he would rather wait 15 mins for a nice steak then 8 min for a yukky one. See? We are just too fast for our own better outcomes.

I think all combined shows just where it started to go downhill.

OneLostGrl
12-31-2008, 06:37 PM
I’m no expert, but I do think our culture and its various subcultures increasingly diminish sensitivity to others and critical thinking skills, and assault individuality, personal responsibility and the family unit. Long term relationships are devalued and difficult to maintain. Immediate gratification and sensory experiences are valued, while long term goals and understanding matters of life and living are disesteemed. Lying, cheating and stealing are increasingly considered an essential norm for success, and the laws of the jungle take priority over matters of principle and adaptive developmental efforts. Certainly, these and related factors contribute to a culture of narcissism and personal gain at the expense of others. It is pleasure driven and propagated by the news media as much as the entertainment media, which are increasingly the same media. The basic concepts of good management are increasingly out of the conceptual range of teenagers and young adults. There are other cultures that are as self-destructive as ours due to their own underlying problems, but our self-serving, narrow minded, self-destructive development is actively reinforced by our motivation and related beliefs, values and value judgments. Society did not make the choices for Casey, but you can certainly see our culture in Casey. I think that is a caveat worth noting.

Just my opinions,
Russell

Hell yeah! Great post, Russell!

indicat
12-31-2008, 06:44 PM
I’m no expert, but I do think our culture and its various subcultures increasingly diminish sensitivity to others and critical thinking skills, and assault individuality, personal responsibility and the family unit. Long term relationships are devalued and difficult to maintain. Immediate gratification and sensory experiences are valued, while long term goals and understanding matters of life and living are disesteemed. Lying, cheating and stealing are increasingly considered an essential norm for success, and the laws of the jungle take priority over matters of principle and adaptive developmental efforts. Certainly, these and related factors contribute to a culture of narcissism and personal gain at the expense of others. It is pleasure driven and propagated by the news media as much as the entertainment media, which are increasingly the same media. The basic concepts of good management are increasingly out of the conceptual range of teenagers and young adults. There are other cultures that are as self-destructive as ours due to their own underlying problems, but our self-serving, narrow minded, self-destructive development is actively reinforced by our motivation and related beliefs, values and value judgments. Society did not make the choices for Casey, but you can certainly see our culture in Casey. I think that is a caveat worth noting.

Just my opinions,
Russell

:clap::clap: Thank you for your insight.

Knot4u2no
12-31-2008, 08:33 PM
One must not overlook the environmental "toxic contributions" to society: Preservatives, chemicals, inorganic chemical residues, caffeine, nicotine, cola, radiation exposure, food preservatives, chemicals, vaccination poisons,
pesticides/insecticides, industrial pollution, mercury, lead,exhaust, cool combustion, Free-on,herbicides and pesticides, household detergents, industrial dust, auto exhaust ,air pollution, adhesives, air conditioner filters, talc and body powder, broken thermometers, cosmetics, all plastics, diuretics, fabric softeners, floor waxes/polishes, fungicides, medications, over the counter and prescribed,industrial waste, laxatives, mercurochrome,hair dyes, cigarette smoke,solvents, radiation exposure, asbestos ....we could go on and on...all of these as contributing factors. It's not just about "green" and our "ozone". It's about what is allowed to be processed and entered into our bodies by our own manufacturers.

PS. If you all think bottled water is 100% spring water. Think again. You're better off drinking tap water. It is monitored and regulated. Bottled water contains a minimum of 6 chemicals used in the processing. The "glitch"? It doesn't have to be listed as an ingredient because of a loophole that classifies it as a "processing method" and not an ingredient. Good ol' FDA, eh?

The toxic contributions to society you mention are a matter of serious concern, but they have little to do with Casey's thought processes and values, and are much more universal than our society/culture. I do not think such social problems can be blamed on the pollution of the environment, though that is a problem that needs to be addressed as rationally as crime prevention.

Russell

reeseeva
12-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Ha! Here I am posting a reply to myself ;) More on fast...faster...fastest:

Funny thing is, and I know it's completely off the subject...hubby and I went to a very well known restaraunt chain. He ordered a steak and sent it back. It was very thin and what we would call a "breakfast steak". The restaraunt manager said they changed all their places to accommodate to what the people ask for. My husband said "What's that ? A thin steak? Is everyone on diets?"....(lol) and the manager said ..."No." People want fast service. They want to order a steak dinner and have it in 8 minutes. Hence we changed the thickness.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHH. No fair. No fun. He said he would rather wait 15 mins for a nice steak then 8 min for a yukky one. See? We are just too fast for our own better outcomes.

I think all combined shows just where it started to go downhill.

LavandaDolce,

I enjoyed both of your posts, & it is a fast, fast, fast, world & someone right now is planning how to make it even faster! Try watching a movie circ. 1960's.....things take time, each frame of the film is deliberate in it's message. I've noticed how this acceleration of our lives plays into the neurosis of never having enough time, Instant gratification... It's too much! We're missing so many important details, never taking pause to reflect on anything. I feel we are in automation mode, never absorbing anything worthwhile.

Visiting my son in New Zealand, I felt like I was transported back in time, & had to adjust to a slower, yet soothing pace. reminiscent of my childhood in the 50's.

There is no excuse for Casey's actions, & I will never understand how she just went on with her life.

One thing I remember someone saying long ago, is " You are your enviroment"

yosande
01-01-2009, 01:20 AM
I know this is an early-in-the-case pic, but it is so telling. CA's hand is way up on LA's thigh, much higher on the thigh than the average 20-something guy would feel comfortable with his mother doing. Boundary issues showing here. Also interesting is the "blocking" LA is doing with his hands.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/photologie/Anthonys_small.jpg
Honestly, she looks like she's holding on to what's left of her family for dear life.
There are no grounds for the accusations being said about her at all.

txsvicki
01-01-2009, 02:14 AM
I don't think our culture, fast paced lives, or technology causes anyone to be a sociopath. There's been plenty of them over the years in many different cultures and time periods. We just know more about such things and are informed thanks to our fast paced internet and news media. I would agree though that the law lets too many criminals get away with all sorts of things and they can influence their kids. Many psychopaths also have a psychopath dad, so something may be also be inherited.

OneLostGrl
01-01-2009, 03:05 AM
I don't think our culture, fast paced lives, or technology causes anyone to be a sociopath. There's been plenty of them over the years in many different cultures and time periods. We just know more about such things and are informed thanks to our fast paced internet and news media. I would agree though that the law lets too many criminals get away with all sorts of things and they can influence their kids. Many psychopaths also have a psychopath dad, so something may be also be inherited.

I totally think a portion of personality disorders are genetic but I also see perfectly good parents (who teach their children morals and consequences etc.) who's children end up personality disordered as well.

OneLostGrl
01-01-2009, 03:06 AM
Honestly, she looks like she's holding on to what's left of her family for dear life.
There are no grounds for the accusations being said about her at all.

I agree- I don't see anything sexual in what she is doing in this picture..

Lavanda Dolce
01-01-2009, 08:04 AM
The toxic contributions to society you mention are a matter of serious concern, but they have little to do with Casey's thought processes and values, and are much more universal than our society/culture. I do not think such social problems can be blamed on the pollution of the environment, though that is a problem that needs to be addressed as rationally as crime prevention.

Russell


I absolutely agree. My point is the changes that have occured within society in general. With healthy minded folks and ill minded alike. Not too be confused with any suspicions on how or why Casey is the way she is. I believe she is a narcisstic sociopath with severe jealousy traits.

Lavanda Dolce
01-01-2009, 08:06 AM
I don't think our culture, fast paced lives, or technology causes anyone to be a sociopath. There's been plenty of them over the years in many different cultures and time periods. We just know more about such things and are informed thanks to our fast paced internet and news media. I would agree though that the law lets too many criminals get away with all sorts of things and they can influence their kids. Many psychopaths also have a psychopath dad, so something may be also be inherited.


I agree. Read my response above. My post was not to reflect as in why Casey is the way she is...but in response to the original poster:)

Lavanda Dolce
01-01-2009, 08:15 AM
After viewing a large portion of the 322 minutes of full conversations between Casey and her family in the jailhouse tapings...I am convinced even further that my interpretation of the dynamics of this family is exactly how I portrayed it in my view of the family "leg clutching" picture. George comes across as beyond passive...and quite honestly, he is more than coddling and cradling Casey than I imagined. As a cop, he sat and allowed Cindy to do all the talking/interviewing and asking questions. While we all know that Cindy has been in deep denial...I believe her denial has been fueled by George.

I think HE is in deeper denial than she. My guess is anytime she may have faltered on her opinions that George was right there to say "my princess Casey would not have done such. I'm a cop. I should know." when in reality....it is he that should know best. Because I believe he knew best...he allowed Cindy to take the "fall" for all the media portrayals because he is essentially a whimp. How this woman lived so long with all this stress and not have a heart attack or breakdown is beyond me. Watching Casey made me really further hope that she gets the death penalty.

Sitting in jail is not hurting her any. She admitted she would rather be there. The fact she is "steps away" from the desk and watched all the time....seemed to bring her delight? Her comments of "I wake up everyday and the first thing I do is pray I can go home" is so pathetic and sickening. Her response should have been "I wake up everyday and and the first thing I do is pray that Caylee is found".......yet, her manipulative tactics and brain works quite fast as she repeated the phrase and added "so that I can come look for Caylee". She is self centered - evil.

To view the NEW RELEASED indepth video's of conversations, click to this link and scroll down to the section that shows the tapes from July 24 - July 30th:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18204436/detail.html

yosande
01-01-2009, 08:23 AM
I sure would like to hear from a psychologist, or socialogist sp on the current topic with the pic, and CA. I find most of the comments beyond inappropiate and worthy of a lawsuit. jmo

Whisperer
01-01-2009, 08:41 AM
I have a pretty good idea where kc is located in the jail. She is enjoying her place "In the Sun". She gets to hear all the gossip and all the change of shifts. She is special because she is not with the "rowdy" inmates. By now she features herself almost like one of the staff. She has men that come to visit her for hours on end, 5-6 days per week. She does not have to deal with the details of her child's death. She has no responsibility and most of all, she has structure which she has been longing for, for her entire life.

Having spent many hours with murderers, I have not seen many suffer. I have known a few that committed suicide, for the most part, they adjust quickly and do not have any problems with their new life. I had one who used to say, "Whatever you do, don't ever let me out of here". I assured him he was not going anywhere. He liked that....and we all can sleep better knowing he is there, trust me on that one.

Whisperer
01-01-2009, 08:52 AM
I sure would like to hear from a psychologist, or socialogist sp on the current topic with the pic, and CA. I find most of the comments beyond inappropiate and worthy of a lawsuit. jmo
___________-

I am neither, but I can tell you that I don't see anything wrong with the PIC, except I don't like anyone in it....LOL

Most young men would not like their mother's hand on their leg. Lee may have not said anything since they were on the air...so I will give him a pass on that. Cindy may have problems with boundaries. She is needy and doesn't think about how the other person feels, much like her daughter.

Crafti
01-01-2009, 08:31 PM
Bump

http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200810/did-casey-kill-caylee-a-forensic-psychologist-comments-the-case

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/10/19/2229202.php

Do we have a psychologist or psychiatrist among us? Any opinions on KC?

evergreen
01-01-2009, 09:19 PM
I have a pretty good idea where kc is located in the jail. She is enjoying her place "In the Sun". She gets to hear all the gossip and all the change of shifts. She is special because she is not with the "rowdy" inmates. By now she features herself almost like one of the staff. She has men that come to visit her for hours on end, 5-6 days per week. She does not have to deal with the details of her child's death. She has no responsibility and most of all, she has structure which she has been longing for, for her entire life.

Having spent many hours with murderers, I have not seen many suffer. I have known a few that committed suicide, for the most part, they adjust quickly and do not have any problems with their new life. I had one who used to say, "Whatever you do, don't ever let me out of here". I assured him he was not going anywhere. He liked that....and we all can sleep better knowing he is there, trust me on that one.


Exactamundo. KC is Loving the attention she gets behind bars, especially because she gets special treatment. Doesn't have to work, doesn't have a kid, gets to read all day and visit with all the men in her life. I am quite sure that many guards will take a shine to her. In fact, she even told her parents that she is okay being in jail!

Knot4u2no
01-02-2009, 10:14 AM
Bump

http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200810/did-casey-kill-caylee-a-forensic-psychologist-comments-the-case

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/10/19/2229202.php

Do we have a psychologist or psychiatrist among us? Any opinions on KC?

The following links were previously posted in this thread. Casey’s BRACE Character Profile with an addendum was completed 9/22/08. The BRACE Character Profiles a prototypical 40-point Hare PCL-R Psychopath and a prototypical DSM-IV-TR Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7) detail the cognitive-behavioral-existential similarities and differences between these diagnostic categories, including how they correlate with the DSM-IV-TR personality disorders.

Link to Casey’s BRACE Character Profile:
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/

Link to prototypical Psychopath:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE%20of%2040%20pt%20Hare%20PCL%20R.pdf

Link to prototypical Antisocial Personality Disorder:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE%20Profile%20of%20DSM%20301%207.pdf

Of course, these profiles are just my opinions.
Russell

Crafti
01-03-2009, 03:01 AM
The following links were previously posted in this thread. Casey’s BRACE Character Profile with an addendum was completed 9/22/08. The BRACE Character Profiles a prototypical 40-point Hare PCL-R Psychopath and a prototypical DSM-IV-TR Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7) detail the cognitive-behavioral-existential similarities and differences between these diagnostic categories, including how they correlate with the DSM-IV-TR personality disorders.

Link to Casey’s BRACE Character Profile:
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/

Link to prototypical Psychopath:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE%20of%2040%20pt%20Hare%20PCL%20R.pdf

Link to prototypical Antisocial Personality Disorder:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE%20Profile%20of%20DSM%20301%207.pdf

Of course, these profiles are just my opinions.
Russell

Awesome! Thank you. But the link to KC;s BRACE Character Profile isn't working, is there another?

Mind student
01-03-2009, 04:41 AM
Whisperer, I do agree with you. Sadly, a lot of prisons offer a better lifestyle than many ever see in the community. Everything is free including education and great medical care. Far too many
are allowed to go free because they do so well inside a controlled environment, then when out repeat their crimes.
For Casey prison will not be a punishment. As for the photo of the family, my opinion is the stress is too high to judge.

Mind Student

Whisperer
01-03-2009, 07:58 AM
This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

Knot4u2no
01-03-2009, 10:24 AM
Awesome! Thank you. But the link to KC;s BRACE Character Profile isn't working, is there another?

Click on the link and then find the Article Index at the top of the article. If you click on next at the bottom of the page, it takes you to the next article. Click on BRACE Character Profile listed under Article Index near the top of the page.

Russell

Crafti
01-03-2009, 03:14 PM
This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

Wow. This is exactly what I was talking about on the should KC receive counseling in jail thread. The parents major enablers and blind to the truths. Also interesting is the ADD element that my x also had but had never been diagnosed with (part of the parental denial, not wanting to "label" their child) until I sent him for testing.

Great post! I have been wondering about her "childhood behavior" as well.

Crafti
01-03-2009, 03:18 PM
Click on the link and then find the Article Index at the top of the article. If you click on next at the bottom of the page, it takes you to the next article. Click on BRACE Character Profile listed under Article Index near the top of the page.

Russell

Hum, I tried again. I get an error that says Internet explorer can't open the site. I even tried going back to just the main site and get the same message.

Knot4u2no
01-03-2009, 04:50 PM
Hum, I tried again. I get an error that says Internet explorer can't open the site. I even tried going back to just the main site and get the same message.

I switched over to Internet Explorer and it worked for me. Try this link ... it skips the introduction and goes straight to the BRACE Character Profile;

http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/1/1/

If that doesn't work, maybe Shadowraiths can help.

Russell

Brini
01-03-2009, 08:26 PM
This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

Good one, thanks! My vote is for dumb psychopath, BTW. I have known some.

Brini
01-03-2009, 08:27 PM
Wow. This is exactly what I was talking about on the should KC receive counseling in jail thread. The parents major enablers and blind to the truths. Also interesting is the ADD element that my x also had but had never been diagnosed with (part of the parental denial, not wanting to "label" their child) until I sent him for testing.

Great post! I have been wondering about her "childhood behavior" as well.

Prolly about the same as her "adult" behavior. She's operating on a child level. Like any Axis: II.

Brini
01-03-2009, 08:29 PM
I totally think a portion of personality disorders are genetic but I also see perfectly good parents (who teach their children morals and consequences etc.) who's children end up personality disordered as well.

I agree. I was reading about deficiency or malfunction of "mirror neurons" in sociopaths, that might be genetic.

Woe.be.gone
01-03-2009, 09:48 PM
I'm watching NG now and I realize how everything that comes out of KS's mouth is related to her own comfort. She never questions what Caylee must be feeling now, how she misses her, etc. (of course we know why.) But also isn't it unusual for a 22 yr old to say she just wants to be home with you guys? Shouldn't it be "I fear for my freedom, for justice?" Not , "I want my mommy and daddy?" The A's just sit there - They should say this is the bed you have crawled into, you'd better tell the truth now in hopes of a solution. And by the way, if you get out, you're on your own. When I was 22, I loved my parents (had my head issues), but wanted to be separate from them. Gradually, as I grew, we regrouped but I'm always reminding my mom "I'm a grown up woman!" But one thing is for sure, my dad made it clear that once I made a major decision, that I owned it (don't come crawling to him to bail me out, etc. - I believed him!) George should not say he would switch places with her, see? They are separate entities. She, at 22, is in charge of her own fate. I see this as a problem in our society today. Parents coddle their kids too much and put their own wishes upon them.

DAWN TREADER
01-03-2009, 10:21 PM
Many thanks for the link to the BRACE Character Profile™ of Casey A.

I wasn't aware of the website and am anxious to check it out.

DT

Woe.be.gone
01-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Many thanks for the link to the BRACE Character Profile™ of Casey A.

I wasn't aware of the website and am anxious to check it out.

DT

Yes, I agree. It's kind of freaking me out how much can go/be wrong with a person's mind! I'm not sure I want to know all this. Asking self "was that response narcissistic, or, worse, judging others, "my husband is so narcissistic", etc. Ha!

gogrannypop
01-04-2009, 02:36 PM
(Redirected from Dunning-Kruger Syndrome)
Jump to: navigation, search

The Dunning-Kruger effect is an example of cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it"[1]. They therefore suffer an illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_Syndrome

I think some of you don't think wiki is such a great resource, but I found this study fascinating. Seems to apply a great deal to this family. MOO

kiki the parrot
01-04-2009, 04:48 PM
This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was malice or even intent, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if no more than a coldblooded sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

:confused:

Devon
01-04-2009, 05:14 PM
(bold mine) Realy instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we are talking about a two year-old, I figured KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. And accidents can and frequently DO happen to self-centered parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson clearly suggest of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe kidnapping story was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't trusted my daughter w that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which it seems is the only thing that matters, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she'd apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy and whether it is equally possible for one of these to be associated w negligence resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was intent involved, why wouldn't she have just feigned a (more believable) accidental death if she's a malicious sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

:confused:

My thoughts seem to have found their way into print without my having moved a muscle. Are you telepathic? :toast::crazy::)

kiki the parrot
01-04-2009, 05:25 PM
What whisperer refers to as possible "ADD" had me speculating or wondering if I was looking at signs of mania? She is very intense, moods vascillating--don't mean histrionics, referring more to racing speech etc that is also, along w what seem like other classic manic symptoms, described by her friends. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-04-2009, 05:30 PM
My thoughts seem to have found their way into print without my having moved a muscle. Are you telepathic? :toast::crazy::)

:blushing:

Brini
01-04-2009, 06:48 PM
(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson clearly suggest of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was intent involved, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if nothing more than a malicious sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

:confused:

Good one! Thanks!

Gracenote
01-05-2009, 01:19 PM
I'm watching NG now and I realize how everything that comes out of KS's mouth is related to her own comfort. She never questions what Caylee must be feeling now, how she misses her, etc. (of course we know why.)

(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.

evergreen
01-05-2009, 01:33 PM
(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.


I was watching the first few minutes of one of LA visits and I was struck out how much "happy" energy she was putting out, like her and Lee were about to plan this awesome vacation to Costa Rica or something and she couldn't wait for the departure day...

evergreen
01-05-2009, 01:44 PM
(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was malice or even intent, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if no more than a coldblooded sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

:confused:

the LE detectives/profilers mentioned that there are two ways someone in KC's position usually goes. one is eventually coming around and owning up to the accident. Evidently this has happened often enough that they know the profile of a woman who initially is embarrassed and doesn't own up to it but eventually does. But they tell KC, that you aren't acting like "that" person. The more lies you put out, the more you lead us in confusion and the wrong direction, the more we have little choice but to see you as a cold ruthless killer who is stonewalling. This makes intuitive sense and is the operative way forward for law enforcement based on the behavior of one KC Anthony.

debs
01-05-2009, 01:48 PM
(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.

(bold, mine) Really? Where are the interviews when Cindy says this? I have never seen them make those statements, not even in the jail tapes. And no, we aren't privy to their private moments when they may wonder these things. But neither are we privy to Casey's private moments when she might.

Lavanda Dolce
01-06-2009, 07:32 AM
When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her.

Nothing Casey has ever said, or done, has shown me one iota of guilt. I do not think she is capable of guilt because she justifies every action she takes in her own mind. Any statements that "resemble" fear or guilt was only to manipulate and say the things the person she is talking to "wanted to hear". Casey has no remorse, no guilt, no fears. The only "fear" I believe she possessed of her mother is that she knew her mother knows her lies and better than anyone else...and probably the only one that she feared would/could divulge her for being the liar she is. That is what she was fearful of with her mother.

radio
01-06-2009, 07:38 AM
Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

debs
01-06-2009, 10:22 AM
Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

BonKai
01-06-2009, 10:32 AM
Snipped for space by me


Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Excellent eval. :clap:

P.S. I think you should change your screen name to Lucy. :blowkiss:

Dr. Pennypacker
01-06-2009, 11:50 AM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Very good evaluation.

Bravo!!:clap:

radio
01-06-2009, 12:55 PM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

$.05 for you!!!

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it very much. A lot to absorb too. Thanks for writing it all out.

Wow what a twisted sister huh? Maybe she didn't have a good foundation, I'm sure that is true, but now she has the LAW.:eek:

evergreen
01-06-2009, 01:08 PM
Nothing Casey has ever said, or done, has shown me one iota of guilt. I do not think she is capable of guilt because she justifies every action she takes in her own mind. Any statements that "resemble" fear or guilt was only to manipulate and say the things the person she is talking to "wanted to hear". Casey has no remorse, no guilt, no fears. The only "fear" I believe she possessed of her mother is that she knew her mother knows her lies and better than anyone else...and probably the only one that she feared would/could divulge her for being the liar she is. That is what she was fearful of with her mother.


right there is no guilt "there"...

Devon
01-06-2009, 01:17 PM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Oh wow!! By Jove I think you've got it! :clap::clap::clap:

Your analysis seems to fit what we know of KC and her mother better than any other I have read so far.

So do you think KC is also a victim, and if so, do you think she deserves some sympathy or pity, even if it is just a minute amount? Personally I do feel some pity for her (ducks head quickly :help:). I still believe she must pay for her crimes and whatever culpability she has for Caylee's death, but can't help feeling that some blame also lies with her parents, especially CA. The whole tragic situation makes me both angry and sad. It may turn out to be true that Caylee's life was taken by her own mother, but IMO KC's mother has had a pretty big hand in screwing hers up too!

Brini
01-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

That's why sociopaths are called, "moral morons."

Brini
01-06-2009, 02:09 PM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Heck, Debs, I'll give you $5.00 for this! And, you win today's Woolworth Award for Dimestore Psychology!

I disagree with you on only one point. I don't think she is capable of love, not even for her child. Sociopaths are not "developed" enough. They are missing parts of their personalities. For that reason, I don't think she tried to spare Klee from CA's enmeshment. I think she just saw Klee as a power icon, in the war between the Queen Bees.

But, I'll bet you are right, in that she observed and mimicked other moms! If you put KC on a couch, she'd turn into an accent pillow, in a harmonizing color.

I think, like you, that once she gets used to the idea of being in jail for decades, she'll be the perfect prisoner. She might even end up a trusty. She won't agitate for extras, but she will manage to get them.

And, the structure might even be good for her. Might make her feel secure and protected. Three hots and a cot, time scheduled for her, every day.

I think they might have only two danger areas: 1) seducing males in the system, and 2) cageing people who write to her out of money.

Like most notorious criminals, she is likely to have "fans." Like many other notorious criminals, I think she's likely to marry a fan, to have someone outside to send her things.

Brini
01-06-2009, 02:23 PM
I was thinking of starting a thread for this question, but felt it would probably be Bumped here.

I have read alot here of personal experiences with people like Casey, & explanations of personality disorders, etc.

I feel the outrage with people like her, Joran Van Der S., & many more, seem to be a total lack of Empathy coupled with an arrogant bravado & no fear! I have read that this is indictive of sociopathic behavior & understand what it is.

My question is: Is it our society, the "world in which we live" that is contributing to, what seems to me, a growing number of particularly younger people affected with this? Also, since the inception of the internet, video games & the ever accelerating, information gathering, overloading world we are now forced to keep up with, it begs the question is "sensory overload =Sensory Depravation?

Would love to hear from the experts on this.

It's theorized that part of this is genetic. Pollutants?

But, I think you are on to something. Kids get too much information, too early, these days. Seems like they don't have as much time to BE kids. More surfing the Net, at early ages, than climbing trees, and playing "Red Rover."

debs
01-06-2009, 03:07 PM
*snipped*
I disagree with you on only one point. I don't think she is capable of love, not even for her child. Sociopaths are not "developed" enough. They are missing parts of their personalities. For that reason, I don't think she tried to spare Klee from CA's enmeshment. I think she just saw Klee as a power icon, in the war between the Queen Bees.
*snipped*

Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

Devon
01-06-2009, 04:28 PM
Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

Once again Debs, you are totally 'on the money' IMO!

So, so very sad!

I also believe that Caylee's death was an accident, but I have also considered the possibility that if KC did actually kill her, whether it may have been because she feared that CA would actually get custody of Caylee and throw KC out, thus severing her own poisoned, but still essential, relationship with CA whilst at the same time leaving Caylee to be 'mothered' the same way that she was. A 'soft' kill would fit this scenario, possibly suffocation or, dare I say it, chloroform! :eek:

MaryAnn
01-06-2009, 04:49 PM
BTW-- As little sympathy as I have for the As, I'm pretty sure that GA has been deeply hurt by KC's rumors about his "abuse."

My guess is that in the highly unlikely event that he came on to KC, CA wouldn't "disbelieve" or "compete." She'd simply kick his cojones up to between his tonsils, put his stuff on the porch, and that would be that. Kind of like she did when he lost all that family money in the Nigerian scam.

And, KC would make VERY sure that CA found out! It's called "splitting.," and Axis IIs do it ALL the time.

I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

kiki the parrot
01-06-2009, 05:27 PM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Bingo. Omg you've saved me so much time and energy trying to explain this I will gladly throw in my nickel lol. Besides... you did a much better job! JMO2!

kiki the parrot
01-06-2009, 05:45 PM
Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with overcontrolling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of limits, and a voice and personality of her own. I'm sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way, while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blameless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one specific picture of KC as a baby resembling another particular one of Caylee (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). In this way, I'd hoped it might help some to remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

Devon
01-06-2009, 06:29 PM
You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with over controlling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of a voice, and a personality, of her own. And I am sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way (by CA), while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blamesless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one picture of KC as a baby that resembles another particular one of Caylee... (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). This way, I'd hoped it might help some remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

The pictures haven't loaded Kiki but I know exactly which ones you mean. I think you are right to remind us all that KC was once an innocent sweet baby, just like Caylee was. I have said the same thing myself on this forum, more than once, but I don't think there was much interest. :rolleyes: I also agree that it is quite possible that Caylee would have received the same 'parenting' In fact, I think it had already started - don't you think that she seemed to have way too much of everything, the best clothes that Disney could offer, enough toys to fill a Dr Barnardo's orphanage, a complete play park of her own etc? CA also mentioned how she would argue with KC to allow Caylee to stay up later than she should and I bet there were many similar incidences of CA wedging her elbows firmly between KC and Caylee's relationship, creating favour with Caylee and blighting KC's role as mom. I think Caylee was already being cosseted, indulged and groomed to be CA's little puppet.

kiki the parrot
01-06-2009, 08:36 PM
There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO

Brini
01-06-2009, 08:54 PM
I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

I thought she said, "Abused," and left it at that.

I've many times heard there "is a grain of truth" in KC's lies.

I'm not seeing it. Just lies.

Brini
01-06-2009, 08:55 PM
There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO

Kiki, you get a cracker, for this! :)

reeseeva
01-06-2009, 11:20 PM
To Debs & Kiki....WOW, I have read & re-read this page so many times today, & took the liberty to bring it over to other threads......

Thank you both for such Brilliance in terms.... to putting the dynamics of this family in such a clear & concise light. I think everyone on the Forum reading about this case, should stop & read page 18 of this thread!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: to Both of You:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

JWG
01-06-2009, 11:48 PM
No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

Wow...loved the whole set of ideas and I could not agree more.

I hate it when people say this, but I am going to say this: I don't have the time to dig up the links right now but I remember seeing on one of the news sights that KC is indeed a model prisoner.

(OK, here is a link (http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2008/12/17/casey-anthonys-neighborhood/). :crazy:)

OneLostGrl
01-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

IMO

JWG
01-07-2009, 12:03 AM
After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life.

Kiki - Very thoughtful post and I think you are spot on.

I think CA tried to act like a parent periodically, and whatever happened Father's Day was the final straw. I made this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3135206&postcount=142) on the computer forensics thread (I don't have KC's hard drive, so take this with a big grain of salt) that seems to indicate there was a confrontation over time spent on the computer in early January - and KC complied. IMHO, I think CA may have told KC she needs to spend more time with her daughter and not expect GA and CA to spend all of Caylee's waking hours with her.

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 12:28 AM
Kiki - Very thoughtful post and I think you are spot on.

I think CA tried to act like a parent periodically, and whatever happened Father's Day was the final straw. I made this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3135206&postcount=142) on the computer forensics thread (I don't have KC's hard drive, so take this with a big grain of salt) that seems to indicate there was a confrontation over time spent on the computer in early January - and KC complied. IMHO, I think CA may have told KC she needs to spend more time with her daughter and not expect GA and CA to spend all of Caylee's waking hours with her.


Very interesting- Thanks so much for sharing all of your hard work!

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 02:02 AM
Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

(bold mine) Such is the tragic, twisted nature of narcissistic--or parent-centered (vs child-centered) parenting. It sadly has little or nothing to do with meeting the needs of the developing child--but is focused instead entirely upon the neediness of the parent. Discouraging, damaging, and above all utterly confusing to a child to grow up continually trying to anticipate or secondguess what the "mood" or unpredictable reactions of their parent will be in nearly every situation. Always kept off-balance, forever rebounding, on the alert for any clues. Receiving, as you say, excessive lavish fawning at the parent's whim for the least warranted things--while reprimanded severely for the most innocent mistakes or imperfections. I grew up in a home like this and believe me, the only thing constant is the inconsistency. In GA's videotaped jailhouse visit (alone) w KC, he is wracking his brain for where he went wrong... and says to KC, "Maybe we were just too domineering." I was dumbfounded. (Well, he was half right I guess.) But no clue or inkling that they may have ever been too permissive?! Or that KC had been basically begging her entire life for some kind of limits and boundaries?!! No hint that the first actual consequence that his daughter had ever been required to pay in her entire life cost her the ultimate price? Or reconsidering whether a few earlier on might have averted any of this? Omg, and the more I read interviews w/ CA, the more I shook my head, as she continued denying and defending the indefensible, making excuse after excuse. Like she no doubt marched into her child's teacher if they dared to give her little darling a bad grade, oy... Let's hope and pray CA (& GA) may one day do some self-inventory as parents, even begin to see the link between the values, priorities and parenting extremes, and their daughter's character. Even if it was negligence, as I believe, it isn't just KC's priorities that at the time likely led to this tragedy--just as telling are all the really poor choices KC made in the aftermath. Nothing can bring Caylee back, but we can only hope that their search for answers may eventually lead to some willingness on their part to search within--and search deeply. JMO

mitzi
01-07-2009, 04:19 AM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

:clap::clap::clap: I have really begun to look forward to reading your posts, debs.

mitzi
01-07-2009, 04:24 AM
Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

WOW! Another great post!

Mind student
01-07-2009, 06:02 AM
So many excellent theories presented, thanks to each one of you.

We are all on a mission of seeking the truth. It is very difficult to know that such a horrible thing happened to an innocent person. Then with sincere hearts, going piece by piece in search of the truth.

In my experience, I have seen children that did not come into the world with the same disposition as Caylee. Not all babies bond
with good parents. To assume KC was just like Caylee may or may not be true. CA worries about how things look to others. As a
nurse and mother, people would have expected her to have a
healthy happy little girl. It is apparent she was close to her own parents and would have never wanted them to worry. She may have covered up, odd behavior by KC. ( In the vidio tape the Anthony's both seemed to handle every word say to KC with kid gloves.)

Just submitting this for thought
Mind Student

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 07:39 AM
Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:


Truth be told, no pun intended, Casey believes in a lot of her own lies in the sense that whatever "lie" she tells....it's because she is justifying an action that she has herself convinced was right. I hope that makes sense. To her, yes..it may be a lie when she is caught in it...but there is no remorse because she already justified the reason in her mind that she lied to begin with...therefore, she is right and everyone else is wrong. That is the narcisstic brain at work.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 07:46 AM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

I think I can agree with part of what you're saying...I'm just not sure I am in full agreement. I think the Cindy vs Casey analogy is somewhat off. Remember, George was home a lot. Cindy worked fulltime and was away from the household during a lot of Casey's upbringing. I personally think that Cindy was overwhelmed from the get-go of covering for George in the family household while he was home spoiling the heck out of Casey so that she didn't have to grow up. As for the park, I can just see Casey going through the motions so that she can justify spending time with Casey before she ventured out on her own to her no-job and party life. Remember also...for two years she lied about working...and Caylee was only nearly three years old...so for pretty much most of that child's life Casey "played the role" of whatever she had to do to get the heck out thereafter. I don't believe she was trying to model what other mothers are doing............at all. She had her own reasoning for putting efforts towards Caylee....and that was for onlookers (her parents) so they would "get off her case". She could hear what a good mother she was and a good worker. I'll bet the only praise she really ever had in life was how pretty she was.....did she get praise for doing something good when she did?

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 07:51 AM
I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

Just an FYI. This is a no-no topic in here. They've asked that this not be discussed because there is no validation and they will shut the thread and lock it. Just a heads up because I just learned this also.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 08:03 AM
There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO


I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.

DebC
01-07-2009, 08:03 AM
I think I can agree with part of what you're saying...I'm just not sure I am in full agreement. I think the Cindy vs Casey analogy is somewhat off. Remember, George was home a lot. Cindy worked fulltime and was away from the household during a lot of Casey's upbringing. I personally think that Cindy was overwhelmed from the get-go of covering for George in the family household while he was home spoiling the heck out of Casey so that she didn't have to grow up.

I agree about George. I couldn't get past his greeting to Casey in the jail. "Hello beautiful..." The sort of thing one would say to a pre-pubescent girl.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 08:06 AM
(bold mine) Such is the tragic, twisted nature of narcissistic--or parent-centered (vs child-centered) parenting. It sadly has little or nothing to do with meeting the needs of the developing child--but is focused instead entirely upon the neediness of the parent. Discouraging, damaging, and above all utterly confusing to a child to grow up continually trying to anticipate or secondguess what the "mood" or unpredictable reactions of their parent will be in nearly every situation. Always kept off-balance, forever rebounding, on the alert for any clues. Receiving, as you say, excessive lavish fawning at the parent's whim for the least warranted things--while reprimanded severely for the most innocent mistakes or imperfections. I grew up in a home like this and believe me, the only thing constant is the inconsistency. In GA's videotaped jailhouse visit (alone) w KC, he is wracking his brain for where he went wrong... and says to KC, "Maybe we were just too domineering." I was dumbfounded. (Well, he was half right I guess.) But no clue or inkling that they may have ever been too permissive?! Or that KC had been basically begging her entire life for some kind of limits and boundaries?!! No hint that the first actual consequence that his daughter had ever been required to pay in her entire life cost her the ultimate price? Or reconsidering whether a few earlier on might have averted any of this? Omg, and the more I read interviews w/ CA, the more I shook my head, as she continued denying and defending the indefensible, making excuse after excuse. Like she no doubt marched into her child's teacher if they dared to give her little darling a bad grade, oy... Let's hope and pray CA (& GA) may one day do some self-inventory as parents, even begin to see the link between the values, priorities and parenting extremes, and their daughter's character. Even if it was negligence, as I believe, it isn't just KC's priorities that at the time likely led to this tragedy--just as telling are all the really poor choices KC made in the aftermath. Nothing can bring Caylee back, but we can only hope that their search for answers may eventually lead to some willingness on their part to search within--and search deeply. JMO


Now this , I agree with 100%.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 08:07 AM
So many excellent theories presented, thanks to each one of you.

We are all on a mission of seeking the truth. It is very difficult to know that such a horrible thing happened to an innocent person. Then with sincere hearts, going piece by piece in search of the truth.

In my experience, I have seen children that did not come into the world with the same disposition as Caylee. Not all babies bond
with good parents. To assume KC was just like Caylee may or may not be true. CA worries about how things look to others. As a
nurse and mother, people would have expected her to have a
healthy happy little girl. It is apparent she was close to her own parents and would have never wanted them to worry. She may have covered up, odd behavior by KC. ( In the vidio tape the Anthony's both seemed to handle every word say to KC with kid gloves.)

Just submitting this for thought
Mind Student


And I believe your thoughts are right on target!

evergreen
01-07-2009, 09:00 AM
You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with overcontrolling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of limits, and a voice and personality of her own. I'm sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way, while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blameless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one specific picture of KC as a baby resembling another particular one of Caylee (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). In this way, I'd hoped it might help some to remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

I am going to refuse to see KC as the victim here. There is a victim but it's not KC. There are plenty of unfortunate cases where a child dies accidentally from some kind of parental neglect. Normally, the parent would do everything in their power to save the child, they would bring the event to light, call authorities, call emergency response, get loved ones involved, show grief, show concern, be remorseful, feel guilty, etc.
Their thoughts would go from saving themselves, to saving the child if at all possible. Failing the child being saved from the accidental circumstance, it is laid to rest with dignity and the parent willingly suffers the consequences of their negilgence.

But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 09:08 AM
I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.

I disagree. We absolutely know enough about life in the Anthony home, how Cindy treated Casey, Casey's behaviors and her parents enabling of those behaviors prior to Caylee going "missing". I also know enough about growing up in a home like this and the damage it causes to recognize it from a million miles away. I do not need nor am I looking for validation from anyone here or anywhere for that matter about what I am seeing in Cindy Anthony. What I hear and see when I look at and listen to George, to Lee, to Casey.. even Cindy's mother's emails to her friend (or relative?) as candid as they are, unknowingly paint a perfect picture of the patterns of a personality disordered home.

Obviously every child is born different, a tad bit about all of us is pre-determined so to some degree I can see where you may be coming from. However, in a personality disordered home each child, each person, is treated differently. Each have their own roles and each learns how to cope with that role within the family.. therefore, each learns different sets of behaviors. The same sets of behaviors would not work for every child in a personality disordered home because every child is not equal. So in all honesty the "brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof" doesn't fly IMO.

I have known personality disordered people who come from good homes, from parents who teach them right from wrong, parents who have done everything "right".. so this post is not to say that I believe personality disorders only happen to people who's parents are disordered because I know that is not true. Personality disorders can form from a varity of different reasons and one can simply be born that way I just do not think that is the case with Casey Anthony.

MO

eddeva
01-07-2009, 09:15 AM
I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way.

i agree w/ you completely, but i think casey is beyond narcissism alone. i believe she is a sociopath and while bad parenting or abuse can reinforce such a pathology, all the love, care, boundary setting and understanding in the world won't make it any better either.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 09:19 AM
I disagree. We absolutely know enough about life in the Anthony home, how Cindy treated Casey, Casey's behaviors and her parents enabling of those behaviors prior to Caylee going "missing". I also know enough about growing up in a home like this and the damage it causes to recognize it from a million miles away. I do not need nor am I looking for validation from anyone here or anywhere for that matter about what I am seeing in Cindy Anthony. What I hear and see when I look at and listen to George, to Lee, to Casey.. even Cindy's mother's emails to her friend (or relative?) as candid as they are, unknowingly paint a perfect picture of the patterns of a personality disordered home.

Obviously every child is born different, a tad bit about all of us is pre-determined so to some degree I can see where you may be coming from. However, in a personality disordered home each child, each person, is treated differently. Each have their own roles and each learns how to cope with that role within the family.. therefore, each learns different sets of behaviors. The same sets of behaviors would not work for every child in a personality disordered home because every child is not equal. So in all honesty the "brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof" doesn't fly IMO.

I have known personality disordered people who come from good homes, from parents who teach them right from wrong, parents who have done everything "right".. so this post is not to say that I believe personality disorders only happen to people who's parents are disordered because I know that is not true. Personality disorders can form from a varity of different reasons and one can simply be born that way I just do not think that is the case with Casey Anthony.

MO

Basically, in a round about way...we are in agreement to a point. (Your last two paragraphs are exactly what I stated, albeit, different words.) I think where we differ is our opinions of Cindy Anthony. I cannot draw upon how she raised Casey from video's nor her actions since Caylee went missing. The woman was under emotional distress and clearly even her appearance is compelling enough to show the stress she has been under. She went from a healthy weight to a huge drop in weight quite drastically. That woman has been suffering tremendously with stress and I will say long before Caylee went missing. I don't hold her, nor George, responsible in any way for the way Casey turned out. Sorry. Now that I just don't buy. Casey is who she is because of what she is...not because of how she was raised. JMHO.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 09:24 AM
i agree w/ you completely, but i think casey is beyond narcissism alone. i believe she is a sociopath and while bad parenting or abuse can reinforce such a pathology, all the love, care, boundary setting and understanding in the world won't make it any better either.


I absolutely agree. I think if a clinical diagnosis is made she will be deemed a Narcisstic-Pychopathic. (Psychopaths (also known as sociopaths) don't develop a conscience because they can't experience the required emotions: anxiety, shame, guilt, and empathy.)

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 09:28 AM
I am going to refuse to see KC as the victim here. There is a victim but it's not KC. There are plenty of unfortunate cases where a child dies accidentally from some kind of parental neglect. Normally, the parent would do everything in their power to save the child, they would bring the event to light, call authorities, call emergency response, get loved ones involved, show grief, show concern, be remorseful, feel guilty, etc.
Their thoughts would go from saving themselves, to saving the child if at all possible. Failing the child being saved from the accidental circumstance, it is laid to rest with dignity and the parent willingly suffers the consequences of their negilgence.

But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.


I think we all can agree with your statement. I think where it is questionable in this thread is how much responsibility of Casey's problems were contributed by and or caused by her rearing. I personally do not hold accountable neither parent for their failures or their successes in parenting... in what Casey became. They are victims in this, as well. What I do not understand is how the general public in knowing how evil and manipulative that Casey is...why can they not understand that she would have had to been a very difficult child to raise and that she didn't just wake up one day and become the monster she is....nor did her parents create the monster that she is. People cannot get past the total denial of the parents and seem to be attributing that to "encouraging Casey's behavior" when they themselves were not only in denial but in the worst grief, fear, stress.... imaginable. How can one not feel for them?

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 09:33 AM
I disagree. We absolutely know enough about life in the Anthony home, how Cindy treated Casey, Casey's behaviors and her parents enabling of those behaviors prior to Caylee going "missing".


No. We don't. We do not know the dynamics. We have only assumed from what we've seen and how they've been treating Casey SINCE Caylee has gone missing. We do not know the dynamics and/or what was done prior. We don't know if for years they had her in therapy, or psychiatry. We don't know if they reached out to support groups or other means to get Casey help. We just do not know. What we do know is the family has been in deep denial, has been under extreme stress, does not do media interviews well and has not had faith in the police because they were on the defensive in that they did not see the police put a lot of efforts into finding a living Caylee. Again, their denial to see that the police had every right and reason to suspect Caylee was dead. We saw that too. They were just too close emotionally to be able to accept that and/or to see it. And personally, I don't think George helped Cindy at all. Especially with him being a cop. If anyone blew around smoke in the mirrors in that house...was George. Cindy was trapped in it. Thats my thoughts.

eddeva
01-07-2009, 09:54 AM
Please take a moment to click on the video link of my tribute video for Jett Travolta. Thank you.

(sorry O/T) that was beautiful and very moving.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 10:00 AM
(sorry O/T) that was beautiful and very moving.



Thank you. It's truly heartwrenching and sad.

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:19 AM
I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.

Lavanda, this is brilliant! Thank you! :clap::clap::clap::blowkiss::blowkiss:

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:21 AM
I absolutely agree. I think if a clinical diagnosis is made she will be deemed a Narcisstic-Pychopathic. (Psychopaths (also known as sociopaths) don't develop a conscience because they can't experience the required emotions: anxiety, shame, guilt, and empathy.)

So true!

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:24 AM
i agree w/ you completely, but i think casey is beyond narcissism alone. i believe she is a sociopath and while bad parenting or abuse can reinforce such a pathology, all the love, care, boundary setting and understanding in the world won't make it any better either.

I am exactly between you and Lavanda, on this.

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:26 AM
I disagree. We absolutely know enough about life in the Anthony home, how Cindy treated Casey, Casey's behaviors and her parents enabling of those behaviors prior to Caylee going "missing". I also know enough about growing up in a home like this and the damage it causes to recognize it from a million miles away. I do not need nor am I looking for validation from anyone here or anywhere for that matter about what I am seeing in Cindy Anthony. What I hear and see when I look at and listen to George, to Lee, to Casey.. even Cindy's mother's emails to her friend (or relative?) as candid as they are, unknowingly paint a perfect picture of the patterns of a personality disordered home.

Obviously every child is born different, a tad bit about all of us is pre-determined so to some degree I can see where you may be coming from. However, in a personality disordered home each child, each person, is treated differently. Each have their own roles and each learns how to cope with that role within the family.. therefore, each learns different sets of behaviors. The same sets of behaviors would not work for every child in a personality disordered home because every child is not equal. So in all honesty the "brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof" doesn't fly IMO.

I have known personality disordered people who come from good homes, from parents who teach them right from wrong, parents who have done everything "right".. so this post is not to say that I believe personality disorders only happen to people who's parents are disordered because I know that is not true. Personality disorders can form from a varity of different reasons and one can simply be born that way I just do not think that is the case with Casey Anthony.

MO
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

This is an excellent debate, ladies!:blowkiss:

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:29 AM
I am going to refuse to see KC as the victim here. There is a victim but it's not KC. There are plenty of unfortunate cases where a child dies accidentally from some kind of parental neglect. Normally, the parent would do everything in their power to save the child, they would bring the event to light, call authorities, call emergency response, get loved ones involved, show grief, show concern, be remorseful, feel guilty, etc.
Their thoughts would go from saving themselves, to saving the child if at all possible. Failing the child being saved from the accidental circumstance, it is laid to rest with dignity and the parent willingly suffers the consequences of their negilgence.

But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.

Yes! Absolutely! (sorry :-)

Knot4u2no
01-07-2009, 11:33 AM
Regarding Casey being a model inmate, I think her being a model inmate is only until convicted. Then, if she doesn’t commit suicide, she will most likely go the way of inmate Susan S. in South Carolina ... using sex for power, which is an extremely serious and dangerous violation of rules for inmates and staff. Using sex for power and control is one of her primary survival strategies and about the only asset she has left, a very powerful tool for bartering and trading with staff in prison. Casey always takes the easy way out, the path of least resistance, so suicide is a high risk and so is bartering and trading with sex.

Only opinions,
Russell

Brini
01-07-2009, 11:39 AM
Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

IMO

This one says is all!:blowkiss::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

txanmom
01-07-2009, 11:56 AM
I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.


this is a brilliant post, i totally agree! because if you think about it, ca mother (or father) would have had to be a narcissist to have raised her to be one, to have ultimately raised kc to be this way. so far, we haven't seen anything that indicates this.

Also, I cannot imagine how hard it was to raise her, i am sorry to say this but those pics of KC as a baby and child spooked the heck outta me. she had the same creepy mask/smile she has in every single picture i have seen of her.

this is the most interesting thread and i agree in part with both sides of the debate. i love how you are all debating and there is so much i have learned or validated about my own thoughts from those of yours. ahhh, the old nature vs. nurture debate brings back so many memories of college.

Has anyone here read the book "We Need To Talk About Kevin" by L. Shriver (mods if i referenced that wrong please let me know the correct way?)? It is an excellent look into this debate. It is a fictional story about a boy who as a teen massacres his classmates in a gymnasium. It depicts the relationship between the mother, son who commits the crime, sister, and father. It eerily parallels Kc's actions. I HIGHLY recommend it.

DebC
01-07-2009, 12:21 PM
I agree with all of the above. Except that I think it was more nurture than nature that made Casey the way she is.

BTW, watching NG I suddenly saw something I have never noticed before. In the video of Casey being led into court in shackles. She suddenly shows her evil side for a split second. A complete change of her expression - I think she mumbles some profanity to herself as well. It only lasts a few frames, then her mask is back in place.

Capri
01-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

IMO

<<Her behaviors began as coping mechanisms. >> That one really hit home with me. In the never-ending quest to understand this personality of KC's, I hadn't truly thought of it that way, that they only began as legitimate coping skills.

I know it's way too late now for KC, but I would love to know what Cindy's home life was like. Always the question of nature vs. nurture.

icherish
01-07-2009, 12:40 PM
Basically, in a round about way...we are in agreement to a point. (Your last two paragraphs are exactly what I stated, albeit, different words.) I think where we differ is our opinions of Cindy Anthony. I cannot draw upon how she raised Casey from video's nor her actions since Caylee went missing. The woman was under emotional distress and clearly even her appearance is compelling enough to show the stress she has been under. She went from a healthy weight to a huge drop in weight quite drastically. That woman has been suffering tremendously with stress and I will say long before Caylee went missing. I don't hold her, nor George, responsible in any way for the way Casey turned out. Sorry. Now that I just don't buy. Casey is who she is because of what she is...not because of how she was raised. JMHO.

(my bold)

ITA NO one is responsible for the path Casey has chosen except Casey.

There is dysfunction in the family to be sure; but I have always believed it was largely created and perpetuated by Casey. The one person who has repeatedly and mercilessly, without shame or remorse- used and abused every single person in her family for her own selfish gain; with precious little Caylee paying the ultimate price.

She continues to do it to them to this very day.

reeseeva
01-07-2009, 01:00 PM
(bold mine) Such is the tragic, twisted nature of narcissistic--or parent-centered (vs child-centered) parenting. It sadly has little or nothing to do with meeting the needs of the developing child--but is focused instead entirely upon the neediness of the parent.:clap: Discouraging, damaging, and above all utterly confusing to a child to grow up continually trying to anticipate or secondguess what the "mood" or unpredictable reactions of their parent will be in nearly every situation. Always kept off-balance, forever rebounding, on the alert for any clues. Receiving, as you say, excessive lavish fawning at the parent's whim for the least warranted things--while reprimanded severely for the most innocent mistakes or imperfections. I grew up in a home like this and believe me, the only thing constant is the inconsistency. In GA's videotaped jailhouse visit (alone) w KC, he is wracking his brain for where he went wrong... and says to KC, "Maybe we were just too domineering." I was dumbfounded. (Well, he was half right I guess.) But no clue or inkling that they may have ever been too permissive?! Or that KC had been basically begging her entire life for some kind of limits and boundaries?!!:clap::clap::behindbar No hint that the first actual consequence that his daughter had ever been required to pay in her entire life cost her the ultimate price? Or reconsidering whether a few earlier on might have averted any of this? Omg, and the more I read interviews w/ CA, the more I shook my head, as she continued denying and defending the indefensible, making excuse after excuse.:eek: Like she no doubt marched into her child's teacher if they dared to give her little darling a bad grade, oy... Let's hope and pray CA (& GA) may one day do some self-inventory as parents, even begin to see the link between the values, priorities and parenting extremes, and their daughter's character. Even if it was negligence, as I believe, it isn't just KC's priorities that at the time likely led to this tragedy--just as telling are all the really poor choices KC made in the aftermath. Nothing can bring Caylee back, but we can only hope that their search for answers may eventually lead to some willingness on their part to search within--and search deeply. JMO

Such a great post Kiki, I know people have a hard time understanding this "learned behavior", referenced in a powerful book, "Memes" (basically we are born with the "genes", the ones we rode in on the bus with) But, these so-called "memes" are a Powerful set of instilled feelings injected in us from parental influences. It certainly made me think about what was hardwired in myself by my own mother, fortunately for me mostly good, & it's awarness hits me daily. I think CA has demonstrated, that appearances & self preservation, at any cost, are paramount to humility & accountability. We have seen her unendless defense of the absurd, & now witness these same traits in KC to the extreme. CA is a force to be reckoned with! I feel anyone contending with her type of personality,(George included) would need a coat of armor, to maintain their own convictions & beliefs. Her will prevail. It's not difficult for me to see how KC developed indifference & lack of empathy. I also feel she loved Caylee, whose death resulted in some unsupervised moment. It is also unfathomable, to me, how she could withstand the crushing horror of what happened, shelve it, & go on living! I haven't heard it discussed here, so I'll throw it out to all on this thread. When I have watched the interviews with Greta, at the Anthony home, the overly conspicuous consumption of stuffed animals (which Greta commented, "I've never seen so many stuffed animals" & CA replied, "that's nothing, there's more"), toys, pictures, momentos of everything Caylee, the backyard Romper Room scene, seem so overly indulgent for 1 child, in light of the fact, that there is so much debt & apparently only one income?? Has anyone else thought it strange? Excessive emphasis on Caylee, mostly by CA paints a very disturbing picture to me, not to say grandchildren, aren't spoiled, especially by grandparents, but within their means. JMO!

KC's lack of emotion, when LA asked, "what's in this for you" (strange question) "why are you letting the police get involved?", her reply said it all, it was the one moment of clarity & truthfulness I've heard from KC, "Maybe I have been an unfit mother, a bad daughter, & bad sister, maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

Brini
01-07-2009, 01:26 PM
I agree with all of the above. Except that I think it was more nurture than nature that made Casey the way she is.

BTW, watching NG I suddenly saw something I have never noticed before. In the video of Casey being led into court in shackles. She suddenly shows her evil side for a split second. A complete change of her expression - I think she mumbles some profanity to herself as well. It only lasts a few frames, then her mask is back in place.

If I talked top my parents the way she does, I'd STILL be picking up my scattered teeth.

kageykaren
01-07-2009, 02:27 PM
While working on an adolescent psych. inpatient unit I realized many parents of teens who have acting out behaviors think this is a phase their child is going through and they will work out of it. These are pts. who have not hurt themselves or others at this point. After a short stay of one month they return home, behavior escaltes to harming self by stealing lying, physical harm, everything pointing to sciopathic behaviors, possible dual diagnosis of mental illness & so on. By the time adulthood arises, parents thenn start to understand they are dealing with a severe problem. The pt. may get better or just placid until the next wave of deviant behavior starts. I am no fan of the A's. I feel if a counselor for KC in highschool would have approached the A's with concern for KC's acting out in some ways, they would have been offended and chose to ignore any slightest problem. Very common for we parents to stick our heads in the ground when our own personal lives are anxiety ridden & we just don't choose to believe the worst for the ones we love. All those stuffed animals, model home look was to say to the world, "See, we love her." Caylee was never on the backburner of our, dysfunctional, broke, mistruth family life.

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 03:14 PM
I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.

(bold mine) This is contrary to everything we've learned in 50 years re personality development and learned behavior which concludes sociopaths are made, not born. This "Bad Seed" mentality--the fatalistic notion of demon seeds and psycho genes suggesting that even the most skilled, child-centered, responsible parents who discipline consistently using appropriate boundaries are nevertheless helpless to train up empathic, moral and well-adjusted children--subtly blameshifts, scapegoats, excuses away, and undermines those very well established links. For those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have long reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are NOT in fact born this way--rather to the contrary they've amassed a wealth of research and clinical evidence proving this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood..



I am going to refuse to see KC as the victim here. There is a victim but it's not KC. There are plenty of unfortunate cases where a child dies accidentally from some kind of parental neglect. Normally, the parent would do everything in their power to save the child, they would bring the event to light, call authorities, call emergency response, get loved ones involved, show grief, show concern, be remorseful, feel guilty, etc.
Their thoughts would go from saving themselves, to saving the child if at all possible. Failing the child being saved from the accidental circumstance, it is laid to rest with dignity and the parent willingly suffers the consequences of their negilgence.

But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.

No one is excusing KC or buying into her victimhood. I've said repeatedly that she must pay for her crimes, and that nothing w/in her past should allow her to escape the consequences of her behavior. And while I have compassion for anyone now living this nightmare, neither am I willing to blindly cast CA in the role as a sheer hapless victim of fate who suddenly found herself "trapped" by random forces over which she never had any influence. Narcissistic parents produce narcissistic children. And I've merely expressed the hope that by recognizing and understand this pattern we might as a society be better equipped to prevent the same tragedy from replaying itself over and over. If you have no interest in doing so, that's fine by me! :) JMO


No. We don't. We do not know the dynamics. We have only assumed from what we've seen and how they've been treating Casey SINCE Caylee has gone missing. We do not know the dynamics and/or what was done prior. We don't know if for years they had her in therapy, or psychiatry. We don't know if they reached out to support groups or other means to get Casey help. We just do not know. What we do know is the family has been in deep denial, has been under extreme stress, does not do media interviews well and has not had faith in the police because they were on the defensive in that they did not see the police put a lot of efforts into finding a living Caylee. Again, their denial to see that the police had every right and reason to suspect Caylee was dead. We saw that too. They were just too close emotionally to be able to accept that and/or to see it. And personally, I don't think George helped Cindy at all. Especially with him being a cop. If anyone blew around smoke in the mirrors in that house...was George. Cindy was trapped in it. Thats my thoughts.

Yes we do know. Despite every gritty detail which has emerged about this family there has been not one indication, so much as one person who has ever reported, nor any account given of any attempt by these parents to discipline, hold accountable much less seek outside counsel or intervention for their daughter nor to acknowledge she was out of control which would have done the unthinkable--exposed the family's "dirty laundry." We know KC would stop at nothing because nothing was done ("I should have been stopped a long time ago...") ie when KC had robbed them, LA, JG and others yet we know it isn't until she'd finally stooped so low as to drain her aging GP's retirement fund that CA in fact ever "reached out." We have instead a well established history of rescuing, enablement, failure to impose consequences coupled with turning a blind eye (to obvious lies, signs of unemployment, whereabouts, ad infinitum ad nauseum). Caylee's disappearance and death were hardly the beginning of CA's problems, nor did the causes appear overnight. It was the tragic yet inevitable consequence of no boundaries, in the making for years. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 03:23 PM
Basically, in a round about way...we are in agreement to a point. (Your last two paragraphs are exactly what I stated, albeit, different words.) I think where we differ is our opinions of Cindy Anthony. I cannot draw upon how she raised Casey from video's nor her actions since Caylee went missing. The woman was under emotional distress and clearly even her appearance is compelling enough to show the stress she has been under. She went from a healthy weight to a huge drop in weight quite drastically. That woman has been suffering tremendously with stress and I will say long before Caylee went missing. I don't hold her, nor George, responsible in any way for the way Casey turned out. Sorry. Now that I just don't buy. Casey is who she is because of what she is...not because of how she was raised. JMHO.

I take into account how people behave while under stress. I think that is when a persons true colors come out, their coping mechanisms are in over-drive! They are not putting on any fronts, no acting or saving facing going on what-so-ever. You simply see the person and how they handle things and other people when times get tough. What better time to see a person in their true light IMO.

How they treat the people that rally around them (the lack of people rallying around them shows me something as well) to give support shows me plenty about who they are. The things (and people) they are willing to lie about, deny and the lines they are willing to cross show me a lot about who they are. The people they are willing to "throw under the bus" or look in the eye and call names because they won't come over to their "side" of thinking show me more than enough about who they really are.

I do believe what Cindy's mother said in her emails though, that Caylee was her reason for living. I do not think that Cindy's behaviors while raising Casey were vindictive or even meant to cause any harm, she loves her daughter (to the best of her ablility) that is obvious to me also. Cindy has lost everything that she held dear, and is now stuck with her loser husband who can't even hold a job and spends all her hard earned money. Of course Cindy has lost weight- she is going through hell, a hell I would not wish on anyone. I do not deny that!

mo.

kageykaren
01-07-2009, 03:28 PM
An example of mixed messages given by CA to Kc was in the jail visitation video where CA tells KC when she returns home after all this is figured out she doesn't have to work. What!!! isn't KC sitting in jail at that time because she wasn't responsible. Wasn't the choke hold because of KC lack of being responsible that she chooses to steal. I was blown away to hear a mother after all that had occured tell her daughter she wouldn't have to work.

indicat
01-07-2009, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=kiki the parrot;3137491]
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]No one is excusing KC or buying into her victimhood. I've said repeatedly that she must pay for her crimes, and that nothing w/in her past should allow her to escape the consequences of her behavior. And while I have compassion for anyone now living this nightmare, neither am I willing to blindly cast CA in the role as a sheer hapless victim of fate who suddenly found herself "trapped" by random forces over which she never had any influence. Narcissistic parents produce narcissistic children. And I've merely expressed the hope that by recognizing and understand this pattern we might as a society be better equipped to prevent the same tragedy from replaying itself over and over. If you have no interest in doing so, that's fine by me! :) JMO



I so agree with you, and it always makes me wonder why people think that looking beyond to her informative years is in anyway a defense for her. No matter how clear it gets made that she is responsible for her actions, the mere mention of the background she comes from and its problems seems to get this response. There is so much to be learned and I appreciate these thought out and well done posts. :)

indicat
01-07-2009, 03:40 PM
An example of mixed messages given by CA to Kc was in the jail visitation video where CA tells KC when she returns home after all this is figured out she doesn't have to work. What!!! isn't KC sitting in jail at that time because she wasn't responsible. Wasn't the choke hold because of KC lack of being responsible that she chooses to steal. I was blown away to hear a mother after all that had occured tell her daughter she wouldn't have to work.

:clap::clap:

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 03:53 PM
I think we all can agree with your statement. I think where it is questionable in this thread is how much responsibility of Casey's problems were contributed by and or caused by her rearing. I personally do not hold accountable neither parent for their failures or their successes in parenting... in what Casey became. They are victims in this, as well. What I do not understand is how the general public in knowing how evil and manipulative that Casey is...why can they not understand that she would have had to been a very difficult child to raise and that she didn't just wake up one day and become the monster she is....nor did her parents create the monster that she is. People cannot get past the total denial of the parents and seem to be attributing that to "encouraging Casey's behavior" when they themselves were not only in denial but in the worst grief, fear, stress.... imaginable. How can one not feel for them?

Well, I agree with you there, Cindy didn't create a murderer. There is nothing George or Cindy did or didn't do to cause Casey to murder her child. They are victims when it comes to the death of Caylee, I agree 100%! But I "understand" plenty about what their parenting or lack there-of did cause. People cannot "get past the total denial of the parents" because they recognize the patterns of said "denial" as personality disordered.

Listen- I understand and respect that you don't see what many others here and elsewheredo recognize in Cindy (in the Anthony family as a whole IMO) so I'm not here trying to convince you of anything. I respect your opinions even though they differ from mine.

reeseeva
01-07-2009, 04:10 PM
An example of mixed messages given by CA to Kc was in the jail visitation video where CA tells KC when she returns home after all this is figured out she doesn't have to work. What!!! isn't KC sitting in jail at that time because she wasn't responsible. Wasn't the choke hold because of KC lack of being responsible that she chooses to steal. I was blown away to hear a mother after all that had occured tell her daughter she wouldn't have to work.:eek: That comment hit me like a brick!

CA still doesn't get it........"TOO MUCH HELP IS CRIPPLING"

This is the same woman, whom her daughter observed, staunchly deny her pregnancy @ 7 months, to a member of her own family:bang: Again, rescue, & enablement. Bold-faced lies, irreverent of truth & honesty, & without conscience. What lesson is she teaching her daughter?:waitasec: The more I think about CA's actions, the more I hold her accountable! (Not for Caylee's death) but most assuredly for the disgusting & heinous coverup of this poor child.

"Teach Your Children Well" (Crosby, Stills, & Nash)

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 04:27 PM
No. We don't. We do not know the dynamics. We have only assumed from what we've seen and how they've been treating Casey SINCE Caylee has gone missing. We do not know the dynamics and/or what was done prior. We don't know if for years they had her in therapy, or psychiatry. We don't know if they reached out to support groups or other means to get Casey help. We just do not know. What we do know is the family has been in deep denial, has been under extreme stress, does not do media interviews well and has not had faith in the police because they were on the defensive in that they did not see the police put a lot of efforts into finding a living Caylee. Again, their denial to see that the police had every right and reason to suspect Caylee was dead. We saw that too. They were just too close emotionally to be able to accept that and/or to see it. And personally, I don't think George helped Cindy at all. Especially with him being a cop. If anyone blew around smoke in the mirrors in that house...was George. Cindy was trapped in it. Thats my thoughts.

Perhaps YOU have been assuming things based on what we have seen of this family since Caylee went missing, I have not! Though their recent behavior has certainly helped firm up my opinions in regard to this "family".

Did you NOT read Cindy's mothers emails, her brother Rick's accounts of his sisters history of "denials", the emails between the two of them?? Did you not listen to Lee's & George's interviews with police or FBI about Casey's behaviors and her relationship with her mother, how her mother treats her? Did you miss the fact that Casey has stolen money from her grandparents & her parents (Not to mention her brother, her brothers friends and one of her own friends PRIOR to Caylee going missing) and nobody did anything about it to attempt to teach her right from wrong?! Have you read the account from one of her former teachers from high school who spoke of Cindy coming to the school and blaming the school rather than Casey for Casey's issues (even using the term "helicopter parenting)?!

The "help from George" that I was refering to in my post was his enabling of Cindy. For example, with the death smell in the car- George said that Cindy smelt it and said "It's the pizza, isn't it George?" and George, IMO knowing full well what the smell was told her yes, it was the smell of the pizza rotting. I see George what for he is, you don't have to try and convince me LOL. I do disagree with you though that he "blows smoke around in mirrors in that house", I think each member of that family sees George for what he is and remind him of it often.

MO

OneLostGrl
01-07-2009, 05:07 PM
i agree w/ you completely, but i think casey is beyond narcissism alone. i believe she is a sociopath and while bad parenting or abuse can reinforce such a pathology, all the love, care, boundary setting and understanding in the world won't make it any better either.

I believe we all have free will. I was raised by a woman much like Cindy and for most of my life I allowed myself to become what my mother always told (or showed me, through her mixed messages) me I was. I numbed myself to the emotional betrayl and was addicted to prescription medication by 12 years old (the same time frame that my mother moved her ASPD future husband in with our family), by 14 I was a pro at using my body to manipulate boys (men). I had been kicked out of public schools (never got in trouble at home for my behaviors at school- my mother often went to the school and dealt with the problems without my knowing it and I'd be allowed back into school without so much as a detention), had a police record (my mother yelled at the police for arresting me for such "stupid things"), used, lied to and cheated on more people than I care to remember before I was in 10th grade. I hated myself, every day of my life, for as far back as I can recall I have wanted to die. I cut, burned and mutilated my own body, I became a full blown addict, worked an an escort, I am a convicted felon, more than once over. I sought out pain, dysfunction and mixed messages from those who "loved" me because those are the only things that had ever defined me. I thought they were all I was worth.

(I have to go get my son from the bus stop and go to the grocery store I'll be back on tonight to finish my post..)

Penelope
01-07-2009, 06:00 PM
Dear Sleuthers--

I have been reading all your posts and have contributed a few of my own that refer to my dealings with my late husband's ex-wife and her now 12-year old daughter.

Based on experiences in my own life, I believe that Casey became what she is today as a result of the way she was raised. And THE MAJOR contributing factor is her mother, Cindy.

My husband use to refer to his ex-wife's behavior as a "curse." When I questioned him further, he explained that in his way of understanding (he was Native American), it was like a "curse" passed down through generations-- and this was literally true in his ex-wife's family. His ex-wife's mother treated her just like she treats her own daughter-- overly affectionate, love-dovey and coddling her one moment; the next moment, screaming and cursing at her, telling her she's stupid and worthless.

For years, we watched the ex-wife treat the daughter this way-- and my husband (just like George Anthony) did what he could to diffuse each blow-up and to protect his daughter as best as he could. But, my husband would never stand up to her because he was always afraid that if he was too critical of the way his ex-wife treated his daughter, she would hurt the daughter in some way or deprive him access to her.

On some level, the ex-wife knew that she was "damaging" her child with her behavior, but her "sickness", anger, and attachment to her daughter was such that she would not let my husband and I raise her. On many, many occasions, she would call my husband up and tell him about the arguments they had-- and cry to him that she knew she was hurting her daughter, but the next day she and the daughter would be back to being "best friends" -- usually following a trip to the mall where she would buy the daughter a toy or an outfit to make up for what she did. Only people she liked were allowed to talk to her daughter -- everyone else was ignored. And this woman has been in therapy for many years!

My husband passed away last May, and now, as my step-daughter grows older, I see many of her mother's characteristics and behaviors in her own behaviors and actions. And I am very scared for what the future holds for her.

It is very hard to watch this dynamic occurring in a family-- it's like a seeing two trains approaching each other at high speeds on the same track and not being able to do anything to stop the crash other than to cringe in anticipation. If Cindy is anything like my stepdaughter's mother-- no one wants to get in her path because they will be attacked (verbally, emotionally, and even physically). And, Cindy was probably quite pleased when Caylee would not do what Casey wanted-- my stepdaughter's grandmother used to get a kick out of it when her granddaughter treated her daughter the way her daughter used to treat her. It's just so sick!

Of course, each family dynamic is different. And no two individuals will act in exactly the same way. I am sure that Cindy knows, deep down, that she has contributed in a big way to making her daughter what she is today. But I don't believe she ever thought Casey would go to the extreme of killing Caylee.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 06:42 PM
(bold mine) This is contrary to everything we've learned in 50 years re personality development and learned behavior which concludes sociopaths are made, not born. This "Bad Seed" mentality--the fatalistic notion of demon seeds and psycho genes suggesting that even the most skilled, child-centered, responsible parents who discipline consistently using appropriate boundaries are nevertheless helpless to train up empathic, moral and well-adjusted children--subtly blameshifts, scapegoats, excuses away, and undermines those very well established links. For those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have long reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are NOT in fact born this way--rather to the contrary they've amassed a wealth of research and clinical evidence proving this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood..




No one is excusing KC or buying into her victimhood. I've said repeatedly that she must pay for her crimes, and that nothing w/in her past should allow her to escape the consequences of her behavior. And while I have compassion for anyone now living this nightmare, neither am I willing to blindly cast CA in the role as a sheer hapless victim of fate who suddenly found herself "trapped" by random forces over which she never had any influence. Narcissistic parents produce narcissistic children. And I've merely expressed the hope that by recognizing and understand this pattern we might as a society be better equipped to prevent the same tragedy from replaying itself over and over. If you have no interest in doing so, that's fine by me! :) JMO



Yes we do know. Despite every gritty detail which has emerged about this family there has been not one indication, so much as one person who has ever reported, nor any account given of any attempt by these parents to discipline, hold accountable much less seek outside counsel or intervention for their daughter nor to acknowledge she was out of control which would have done the unthinkable--exposed the family's "dirty laundry." We know KC would stop at nothing because nothing was done ("I should have been stopped a long time ago...") ie when KC had robbed them, LA, JG and others yet we know it isn't until she'd finally stooped so low as to drain her aging GP's retirement fund that CA in fact ever "reached out." We have instead a well established history of rescuing, enablement, failure to impose consequences coupled with turning a blind eye (to obvious lies, signs of unemployment, whereabouts, ad infinitum ad nauseum). Caylee's disappearance and death were hardly the beginning of CA's problems, nor did the causes appear overnight. It was the tragic yet inevitable consequence of no boundaries, in the making for years. JMO



Well, we have to agree to disagree. I do not believe a sociopathic personalitly is due to how one was raised. I believe in genetics and I also believe in misnomers in utero that can occur and specific genes or traits can be damaged and thus a child is born with the predisposition to having mental or personality issues / disorders. However, that said...I also believe that an environment, whether it be a home environment or environmental as in their surroundings, can attribute to escalation of the problem....but I don't put the blame of the problem on how one was raised as justification for committing murder.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 06:45 PM
I take into account how people behave while under stress. I think that is when a persons true colors come out, their coping mechanisms are in over-drive! They are not putting on any fronts, no acting or saving facing going on what-so-ever. You simply see the person and how they handle things and other people when times get tough. What better time to see a person in their true light IMO.

How they treat the people that rally around them (the lack of people rallying around them shows me something as well) to give support shows me plenty about who they are. The things (and people) they are willing to lie about, deny and the lines they are willing to cross show me a lot about who they are. The people they are willing to "throw under the bus" or look in the eye and call names because they won't come over to their "side" of thinking show me more than enough about who they really are.

I do believe what Cindy's mother said in her emails though, that Caylee was her reason for living. I do not think that Cindy's behaviors while raising Casey were vindictive or even meant to cause any harm, she loves her daughter (to the best of her ablility) that is obvious to me also. Cindy has lost everything that she held dear, and is now stuck with her loser husband who can't even hold a job and spends all her hard earned money. Of course Cindy has lost weight- she is going through hell, a hell I would not wish on anyone. I do not deny that!

mo.



ESPECIALLY when one is stressed is NOT the time to judge how they treated people around them. Oh me oh my! Those people had mobs on their front doorstep, they had people who probably were far worse parents accuse them of terrible things. A daughter in jail, a missing loved grandchild, ill and ederly parents, their names splashed all over the news, rumors running amuck, and people like us...judging and blogging about them! Oh my. Never judge anyone through the eyes of the media.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 06:48 PM
Well, I agree with you there, Cindy didn't create a murderer. There is nothing George or Cindy did or didn't do to cause Casey to murder her child. They are victims when it comes to the death of Caylee, I agree 100%! But I "understand" plenty about what their parenting or lack there-of did cause. People cannot "get past the total denial of the parents" because they recognize the patterns of said "denial" as personality disordered.

Listen- I understand and respect that you don't see what many others here and elsewheredo recognize in Cindy (in the Anthony family as a whole IMO) so I'm not here trying to convince you of anything. I respect your opinions even though they differ from mine.


It's ok, OneLostGrl...I don't mind if my opinion differs and I respect others opinions, as well. (except I'm having a hard time biting my tongue over those accusing the Travolta's of "killing" their son). Fact is, if you check out my forum (www.angelsforstacy.hqforums.com) you will see that I had plenty of negative feelings towards Cindy for quite a few months. It was not until the entire picture unfolded and I viewed all the jailhouse visits with George that it all started to fall in place for me. That's when I realized that woman is not exactly what she is coming across as to the public. There is a lot more to her and a very long ordeal that she has endured long before Caylee went missing.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 06:51 PM
:eek: That comment hit me like a brick!

CA still doesn't get it........"TOO MUCH HELP IS CRIPPLING"

This is the same woman, whom her daughter observed, staunchly deny her pregnancy @ 7 months, to a member of her own family:bang: Again, rescue, & enablement. Bold-faced lies, irreverent of truth & honesty, & without conscience. What lesson is she teaching her daughter?:waitasec: The more I think about CA's actions, the more I hold her accountable! (Not for Caylee's death) but most assuredly for the disgusting & heinous coverup of this poor child.

"Teach Your Children Well" (Crosby, Stills, & Nash)


I hold her accountable for being stupid and allowing Casey to manipulate her as she did. I do not hold her accountable for any cover ups. Until evidence suggests such, I can't.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 06:54 PM
Perhaps YOU have been assuming things based on what we have seen of this family since Caylee went missing, I have not! Though their recent behavior has certainly helped firm up my opinions in regard to this "family".

Did you NOT read Cindy's mothers emails, her brother Rick's accounts of his sisters history of "denials", the emails between the two of them?? Did you not listen to Lee's & George's interviews with police or FBI about Casey's behaviors and her relationship with her mother, how her mother treats her? Did you miss the fact that Casey has stolen money from her grandparents & her parents (Not to mention her brother, her brothers friends and one of her own friends PRIOR to Caylee going missing) and nobody did anything about it to attempt to teach her right from wrong?! Have you read the account from one of her former teachers from high school who spoke of Cindy coming to the school and blaming the school rather than Casey for Casey's issues (even using the term "helicopter parenting)?!

The "help from George" that I was refering to in my post was his enabling of Cindy. For example, with the death smell in the car- George said that Cindy smelt it and said "It's the pizza, isn't it George?" and George, IMO knowing full well what the smell was told her yes, it was the smell of the pizza rotting. I see George what for he is, you don't have to try and convince me LOL. I do disagree with you though that he "blows smoke around in mirrors in that house", I think each member of that family sees George for what he is and remind him of it often.

MO


I think Cindy cracked and felt the whole world was against her and I guess it would be hard to not feel that way to a degree. Especially when you have mobs on your front lawn and police who insist from the get-go that your grandchild is dead at the hands of your own child. I imagine that would be so overwhelming in itself that one would fall into a psychological protective mode for their own sanity...and that mode is called denial. Why haven't we heard from Cindy thus far? I bet the woman has completely cracked up now. A very deep depression. I'll be the first to "eat my hat" if she comes out of this supporting the ol "nanny did it" story. I promise you I will. Cuz I don't see it happening.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 07:05 PM
I believe we all have free will. I was raised by a woman much like Cindy and for most of my life I allowed myself to become what my mother always told (or showed me, through her mixed messages) me I was. I numbed myself to the emotional betrayl and was addicted to prescription medication by 12 years old (the same time frame that my mother moved her ASPD future husband in with our family), by 14 I was a pro at using my body to manipulate boys (men). I had been kicked out of public schools (never got in trouble at home for my behaviors at school- my mother often went to the school and dealt with the problems without my knowing it and I'd be allowed back into school without so much as a detention), had a police record (my mother yelled at the police for arresting me for such "stupid things"), used, lied to and cheated on more people than I care to remember before I was in 10th grade. I hated myself, every day of my life, for as far back as I can recall I have wanted to die. I cut, burned and mutilated my own body, I became a full blown addict, worked an an escort, I am a convicted felon, more than once over. I sought out pain, dysfunction and mixed messages from those who "loved" me because those are the only things that had ever defined me. I thought they were all I was worth.

(I have to go get my son from the bus stop and go to the grocery store I'll be back on tonight to finish my post..)



I'm sorry you went through all of that. I'm glad to see you recognize that you are your own unique person and have self respect. I can read that in your posts. I can relate to your upbringing as mine was both physical and emotional...however, somewhere in my brain in my own protective mode I chose to "understand" that it was not me...it was her and did not have to suffer self destructive situations. So this leads me to question how can two people in similar situations come out differently? Again...I believe it is due to our own individual beliefs, personalities, associations, environments, mentors, life experiences, etc.

This is why I cannot put blame on what a parent has done to a child that causes the child to commit murder or mayhem in other peoples lives. Suffering onto oneself is common when reared under the conditions that we have been....but to commit acts against others should not be the fault of the "rearer". We all know right from wrong. No matter how brutal of a parent that may have raised us.....we do not murder another human being. That is a self choice unless it's in an act of self defence...or unfortunately, war.

txanmom
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Well, we have to agree to disagree. I do not believe a sociopathic personalitly is due to how one was raised. I believe in genetics and I also believe in misnomers in utero that can occur and specific genes or traits can be damaged and thus a child is born with the predisposition to having mental or personality issues / disorders. However, that said...I also believe that an environment, whether it be a home environment or environmental as in their surroundings, can attribute to escalation of the problem....but I don't put the blame of the problem on how one was raised. Heck if that were the case...I would be a psychosociopath myself. Cindy Anthony and George Anthony are very welcoming parents in comparison to who raised me;)

and again another great post. i so agree with you here. Here is my take. you can have a genetic personality disorder present with all the symptoms. that person has children. one presents with the same genetic disorder with all traits, one mimics or has some traits of the personality they have been raised under but do not actually meet all the criteria for the disorder. clear as mud?

anyway, the reason i say this with any conviction at all is because my grandmother (maternal) has BPD, histrionic, narcissistic, and antisocial behavioral patterns. she was only diagnosed bpd, put on meds for that and institutionalized and given electroshock therapy. lost 2 of her kids to cps, my mother being the 3rd. she immediately after birth gave her to my great-grandmother to raise (yep, same kc scenario, my mother cramped her partying lifestyle). my mother suffered GAD and was agoraphobic from the time i was 7 until i was 28. my brother has asperger's syndrome. i also secretly think my mom was narcisisstic/histrionic (still is god love her) and i was the family nurturer/caretaker. so i have been raised by a mother who would lie at any cost (often over the most stupid things!!) and belittled me at every turn while still relying on me to clean our house, take care of her husband and my brother and take her to and from anything she needed to do.

OneLostGirl, I think you and i could stay up all night talking as the things you have written have also been in my past. only very few know about all that. i mean everything with exception of being arrested has been the case with me, and honestly i have had friends/coworkers all around me rounded up for jail and magically i was spared.

the thing is once i was able to get out from under her influence very slowly i was able to heal and remove myself from those harmful environments and influences and become a better (not great:rolleyes:) but better me. i have some strange quirks but i don't think i actually have the personality disorder myself. but.... i DO think i DEFINETELY exhibited many of the symptoms of it in certain situations and probably still do.

txanmom
01-07-2009, 07:44 PM
I hold her accountable for being stupid and allowing Casey to manipulate her as she did. I do not hold her accountable for any cover ups. Until evidence suggests such, I can't.

and this incident (the pregnancy) i hold as a passive-aggressive tactic on cindy's part to manipulate kc into finally admitting to HER that she was indeed pregnant. imo