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kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 06:51 PM
But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.

(respectfully snipped) Hmm, wonder where she learned this self-preservation and these irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful behaviors... Is it possible the values were, if not taught openly, at least tolerated or even subtly modelled while growing up? Could it be that small lies overlooked led to bigger lies... If we call our children only on the lies that cause us inconvenience and embarassment while turning a blind eye to the ones that make things less stressful, or "normalize" what's going on in the home eg we are headed for trouble. Parents who either model, or excuse "little white lies" all along, instead of instilling in their child very early on the value of truthfulness, are planting seeds that will bear fruit for years to come. And will be in for a real ride when it comes time to hold their teen accountable, for whom deception has been ingrained, only now the child can outwit them--and the ante has soared. I don't think KC from a baby was predestined or predisposed to lie and deceive any more than she was programmed to blameshift. Could it be excuses had long been accepted and consequences spared? Could a lack of empathy, exploitation, the sense of entitlement and a hardened have resulted from an overbearing parent who ran her brain, and having to fight for even the right to disagree or have an opinion of her own? Or from enmeshment with a parent for whom children were seen as mere extensions of herself. KC wasn't just born missing the "empathy chip." Of course CA didn't "make" KC murder--and neglect alone can easily cause the death of a toddler--but we shouldn't minimize the role of the parent in shaping and forming who our children become--and whether they ever grow up or develop a spine, or a moral compass. I am not disagreeing w your assessment of who KC became, I'm taking issue w/ how she got there.

this is a brilliant post, i totally agree! because if you think about it, ca mother (or father) would have had to be a narcissist to have raised her to be one, to have ultimately raised kc to be this way. so far, we haven't seen anything that indicates this.

Also, I cannot imagine how hard it was to raise her, i am sorry to say this but those pics of KC as a baby and child spooked the heck outta me. she had the same creepy mask/smile she has in every single picture i have seen of her.

this is the most interesting thread and i agree in part with both sides of the debate. i love how you are all debating and there is so much i have learned or validated about my own thoughts from those of yours. ahhh, the old nature vs. nurture debate brings back so many memories of college.

Has anyone here read the book "We Need To Talk About Kevin" by L. Shriver (mods if i referenced that wrong please let me know the correct way?)? It is an excellent look into this debate. It is a fictional story about a boy who as a teen massacres his classmates in a gymnasium. It depicts the relationship between the mother, son who commits the crime, sister, and father. It eerily parallels Kc's actions. I HIGHLY recommend it.

(bold mine) While KC's features as a baby may not have been, in the opinion of some, as cute as her daughter's who we all came to love and adore, to go as far as referring to any baby or small child as "creepy" seems a little childish. We're simply recognizing the same features we've come to associate w/ her abhorrent behavior as an adult. And I disagree completely that we see no signs of narcissistic parenting, or parent-centered parenting! (On one hand, CA eg will neither give KC "permission" to relinquish parental responsibility by refusing to allow KC to adopt out Caylee as KC planned as KC knows and admits she isn't prepared to make the sacrifices of parenting. But neither will CA entirely assume the responsibility. Above her protests, CA talks KC out of giving away "her grandchild" so it could be argued CA should therefore assume full responsibility. And not only by footing the bill or assuming those responsibilities when it's convenient for her, as she goes along steadily reminding KC of all she's doing and maligning her daughter, and particularly while it is also gratifying some need of her's as a needy parent is so apt to do... just one eg). And I don't have any trouble at all imagining "how hard it was to raise KC" or more accurately, to live w/ KC after failing to raise her w/ boundaries or limits. Many parents are simply in need of a better working definition of "love." Because every parent who loves their child disciplines them. Yet how often, in trying to spare children consequences, we do them such a disservice, confusing accountability w/ unforgiveness, and by equating love with licentiousness. No this job isn't for the fainthearted nor weakkneed, requires skills and sacrifices, and doesn't lend itself well to "winging it." JMO

While working on an adolescent psych. inpatient unit I realized many parents of teens who have acting out behaviors think this is a phase their child is going through and they will work out of it. These are pts. who have not hurt themselves or others at this point. After a short stay of one month they return home, behavior escaltes to harming self by stealing lying, physical harm, everything pointing to sciopathic behaviors, possible dual diagnosis of mental illness & so on. By the time adulthood arises, parents thenn start to understand they are dealing with a severe problem. The pt. may get better or just placid until the next wave of deviant behavior starts. I am no fan of the A's. I feel if a counselor for KC in highschool would have approached the A's with concern for KC's acting out in some ways, they would have been offended and chose to ignore any slightest problem. Very common for we parents to stick our heads in the ground when our own personal lives are anxiety ridden & we just don't choose to believe the worst for the ones we love. All those stuffed animals, model home look was to say to the world, "See, we love her." Caylee was never on the backburner of our, dysfunctional, broke, mistruth family life.

ITA. You can not look the other way, go on ignoring all the warning signs... minimizing, normalizing, and sanitizing problems, excusing, and enabling for 22 years... and then one day look up and wonder, "Where did we go wrong??" CA seems to have had some sort of idealized fantasy of what the perfect family should look like, and feels pressure apparently to project this. JMO

An example of mixed messages given by CA to Kc was in the jail visitation video where CA tells KC when she returns home after all this is figured out she doesn't have to work. What!!! isn't KC sitting in jail at that time because she wasn't responsible. Wasn't the choke hold because of KC lack of being responsible that she chooses to steal. I was blown away to hear a mother after all that had occured tell her daughter she wouldn't have to work.

(bold mine) THANK YOU! I about fell out of my chair on that one myself... (that is after I picked myself up from GA's, "Maybe we were too domineering...") Just plain crazymaking. JMO2!

txanmom
01-07-2009, 07:09 PM
(respectfully snipped) Hmm, wonder where she learned this self-preservation and these irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful behaviors... Is it possible the values were, if not taught openly, at least tolerated or even subtly modelled while growing up? Could it be that small lies overlooked led to bigger lies... If we call our children only on the lies that cause us inconvenience and embarassment while turning a blind eye to the ones that make things less stressful, or "normalize" what's going on in the home eg we are headed for trouble. Parents who either model, or excuse "little white lies" all along, instead of instilling in their child very early on the value of truthfulness, are planting seeds that will bear fruit for years to come. And will be in for a real ride when it comes time to hold their teen accountable, for whom deception has been ingrained, only now the child can outwit them--and the ante has soared. I don't think KC from a baby was predestined or predisposed to lie and deceive any more than she was programmed to blameshift. Could it be excuses had long been accepted and consequences spared? Could a lack of empathy, exploitation, a sense of entitlement and a hardened have resulted from an overbearing parent who ran her brain, and having to fight for even the right to disagree or have an opinion of her own? Or from enmeshment with a parent for whom children were seen as an extension of herself... Of course CA didn't "make" KC murder, but we shouldn't minimize the role of the parent in shaping and forming who our children become. And I am not disagreeing w your assessment of who KC became, I'm taking issue w/ how she got there.



(bold mine) While KC's features as a baby may not have been, in the opinion of some, as cute as her daughter's who we all came to love and adore, to go as far as referring to any baby or small child as "creepy" seems a little childish. We are simply recognizing the same features we've come to associate w/ her abhorrent behavior as an adult. And I don't have any trouble at all imagining "how hard it was to raise KC," or more accurately, to live w/ KC after failing to raise her w/ boundaries or limits. Many parents are simply in need of a better working definition of "love." Because every parent who loves their child disciplines them. Yet how often, in trying to spare children consequences, we do them such a disservice, confusing accountability w/ unforgiveness, and by equating love with licentiousness. No this job is not for the fainthearted or the weakkneed, requires skills and sacrifices, and doesn't lend itself well to "winging it." JMO



ITA. You can not look the other way, go on ignoring all the warning signs... minimizing, normalizing, and sanitizing problems, excusing, and enabling for 22 years... and then one day look up and wonder, "Where did we go wrong??" CA seems to have had some sort of idealized fantasy of what the perfect family should look like and feels pressure to project this. JMO



(bold mine) THANK YOU! I about fell out of my chair on that one myself... (that is after I picked myself up from GA's, "Maybe we were too domineering...") Just plain crazymaking. JMO2!


i still don't know how to snip posts so bolding is mine and i would like to respond to this part. maybe it is childish of me, but i in my own i life always stare into people's eyes when i talk to them or they talk to me. it is also the first thing i am drawn to in pictures of people and childish or not, there is something OFF in pictures of kc as a child or adult TO ME. she just looks masklike and not normal to me. but, maybe you are right about the things i know about her now coloring my view of her. but, i will tell you this, i often get gut feelings about people and so far i have never been wrong, in my own life anyways.

kiki, i like all of your posts i think all of you on this thread are extremely intelligent and insiteful to me at least and i really like learning from you.

ps. i know my spelling is atrocious, sorry....(insert little embarrassed smiley here)

Brini
01-07-2009, 07:12 PM
(my bold)

ITA NO one is responsible for the path Casey has chosen except Casey.

There is dysfunction in the family to be sure; but I have always believed it was largely created and perpetuated by Casey. The one person who has repeatedly and mercilessly, without shame or remorse- used and abused every single person in her family for her own selfish gain; with precious little Caylee paying the ultimate price.

She continues to do it to them to this very day.

And, everybody enabled her. Until that fateful family fight, after whih she killed her daughter.

KC was "entitiled" not to be confronted.

Brini
01-07-2009, 07:14 PM
You folks are just SO hot, on this thread! This is one of the best w/s debates, ever!

Devon
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
When I first saw those baby pictures of KC, especially the one of her dressed up in a Christmas outfit and sitting on the floor, the first thing that struck me was the fixed 'smile' that seemed to not quite reach her eyes, very disconcerting to see this in a small child, but I didn't see this as 'creepy' or in any way indicative of some sort of 'evil' yet to be released. What occurred to me was that she probably didn't like being dressed up and 'posed' for 'perfect family Xmas' pictures. The whole scene seems somehow artificial and her expression is certainly not a happy one. There seem to be an awful lot of similar pictures of Caylee too, and it suggests to me that CA (and probably KC through CA's example) liked to have these sorts of photos as a sort of permanent reinforcement of the 'perfect' family, proof of the 'love' being bestowed on the child and of the efforts made to provide all that a child could ever 'need'. Somewhat like a false Utopia.

Edited to add - KC has the same 'all but the eyes' type of smile in many of her adult pics too. IMO she is not really happy, just making it look like she is. All about image and keeping up a facade - where did she learn that from again?

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 07:53 PM
Well, we have to agree to disagree. I do not believe a sociopathic personalitly is due to how one was raised. I believe in genetics and I also believe in misnomers in utero that can occur and specific genes or traits can be damaged and thus a child is born with the predisposition to having mental or personality issues / disorders. However, that said...I also believe that an environment, whether it be a home environment or environmental as in their surroundings, can attribute to escalation of the problem....but I don't put the blame of the problem on how one was raised as justification for committing murder.

(bold mine) Has anyone here said that lol? Since you are responding to my post I assume this is directed toward me yet I've said nothing of the kind, in fact repeatedly the opposite. I'm sorry you are unable still to appreciate the difference between an effort to understand--and to excuse or "justify." And also feel the need to misrepresent and distort other's opinions to "justify" your own. We do not even know for certain yet whether murder was committed! But please, by all means, continue in your present way of thinking and just disregard my future posts if you don't find them useful. Only recognize that in one dismissive statement you've taken on the entire study of modern psychology (not to mention 50 years of hardearned wisdom, parenting and grandparenting, which bears this out... lol) JMO

reeseeva
01-07-2009, 07:56 PM
I hold her accountable for being stupid and allowing Casey to manipulate her as she did. I do not hold her accountable for any cover ups. Until evidence suggests such, I can't.

Lavanda Dolce, I respectfully agree to disagree with you. Cindy instilled in Casey the propensity to hide, lie, ignore & put the blame on everyone, but herself. Is it really a surprise that Casey could not own up to a mistake? CA essentially created the monster that she is now having to deal with. IMHO, Cindy is the Master manipulator, & taught her daughter, thru example, how to squirm her way thru anything.

txsvicki
01-07-2009, 08:04 PM
I have a question about narcissists. If Casey was raised by a narcissist and that is why she turned out the way she did, then is everyone sure they are looking at the right parent? Cindy is getting the blame for everything from people on forums to George being interviewed by LE and blaming everything on Cindy. A really good narcissist would have every one believing that they are a victim and that it's really someone's else's fault. This seems to be what is being done to Cindy. Maybe she's in on it though, who knows, but what if George is the true narcissist and passed it along with nature and nurture?

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 08:10 PM
Perhaps YOU have been assuming things based on what we have seen of this family since Caylee went missing, I have not! Though their recent behavior has certainly helped firm up my opinions in regard to this "family".

Did you NOT read Cindy's mothers emails, her brother Rick's accounts of his sisters history of "denials", the emails between the two of them?? Did you not listen to Lee's & George's interviews with police or FBI about Casey's behaviors and her relationship with her mother, how her mother treats her? Did you miss the fact that Casey has stolen money from her grandparents & her parents (Not to mention her brother, her brothers friends and one of her own friends PRIOR to Caylee going missing) and nobody did anything about it to attempt to teach her right from wrong?! Have you read the account from one of her former teachers from high school who spoke of Cindy coming to the school and blaming the school rather than Casey for Casey's issues (even using the term "helicopter parenting)?!

The "help from George" that I was refering to in my post was his enabling of Cindy. For example, with the death smell in the car- George said that Cindy smelt it and said "It's the pizza, isn't it George?" and George, IMO knowing full well what the smell was told her yes, it was the smell of the pizza rotting. I see George what for he is, you don't have to try and convince me LOL. I do disagree with you though that he "blows smoke around in mirrors in that house", I think each member of that family sees George for what he is and remind him of it often.

One, as always YOU ROCK :rocker:
People's real character is indeed revealed under pressure, and yes only what's already in the glass can spill out lol! Please let me add, all your suffering has NOT been not in vain!!! At least you've been determined to squeeze as much insight as you can from it, and now choosing to be of benefit to others. Thanks as always for sharing, appreciate all your thoughts.
:blowkiss:

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 08:25 PM
When I first saw those baby pictures of KC, especially the one of her dressed up in a Christmas outfit and sitting on the floor, the first thing that struck me was the fixed 'smile' that seemed to not quite reach her eyes, very disconcerting to see this in a small child, but I didn't see this as 'creepy' or in any way indicative of some sort of 'evil' yet to be released. What occurred to me was that she probably didn't like being dressed up and 'posed' for 'perfect family Xmas' pictures. The whole scene seems somehow artificial and her expression is certainly not a happy one. There seem to be an awful lot of similar pictures of Caylee too, and it suggests to me that CA (and probably KC through CA's example) liked to have these sorts of photos as a sort of permanent reinforcement of the 'perfect' family, proof of the 'love' being bestowed on the child and of the efforts made to provide all that a child could ever 'need'. Somewhat like a false Utopia.

Edited to add - KC has the same 'all but the eyes' type of smile in many of her adult pics too. IMO she is not really happy, just making it look like she is. All about image and keeping up a facade - where did she learn that from again?

Precisely. CA seems to be orchestrating, coaching and overdirecting videos too IMO.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Could a lack of empathy, exploitation, the sense of entitlement and a hardened have resulted from an overbearing parent who ran her brain, and having to fight for even the right to disagree or have an opinion of her own? Or from enmeshment with a parent for whom children were seen as mere extensions of herself. KC wasn't just born missing the "empathy chip."

How can you say that? My own son was born with no ability to emphathize. Which is exactly one of the common traits among those with Aspergers, of which my son has. So how can you state that Casey was not born with the ability to have empathy? This you are definetly reaching out with. People are born without that ability.



On one hand, CA eg will neither give KC "permission" to relinquish parental responsibility by refusing to allow KC to adopt out Caylee as KC planned as KC knows and admits she isn't prepared to make the sacrifices of parenting. But neither will CA entirely assume the responsibility. Above her protests, CA talks KC out of giving away "her grandchild" so it could be argued CA should therefore assume full responsibility. And not only by footing the bill or assuming those responsibilities when it's convenient for her, as she goes along steadily reminding KC of all she's doing and maligning her daughter, and particularly while it is also gratifying some need of her's as a needy parent is so apt to do... just one eg

Again, how can you say this? You don't know exactly what transpired. You said that CA talked Casey out of giving away the child? How do you not know that what she talked her out of was to not ABORT the child and instead to give the child up for adoption? None of us were in their living room or privy to that conversation. You can't go by hearsay on this.........nor can you state that she went along "steadily reminding KC of all she's done...and maligning her daughter". It sounds like you really are blaming a lot on a woman that you know nothing about. I may sound like I am totally defending her...but that is because none of the trial has taken place, Cindy has not gotten the opportunity to defend herself against all of these assumptions....which they are...merely assumptions...and all we know as factual is that the family was no doubt dysfunctional and Casey was a selfish spoiled self centered brat that expected the world to be one big wild party at any cost including ridding herself of all that got in her way.....her parents and her daughter. If it wasn't going to be Casey's way....it wasn't going to be theirs. That was her motto. Let's not forget she left the home on her own for 30 days. She wasn't thrown out. Casey was not about to adhere to any more rules set forth by her parents, nor threats...which as you know is what ANY GOOD parent would have done. Exactly what Cindy Anthony did. Either grow up, get responsible, get a job and take care of this child....or we will take custody. How can you negate that is a negative?

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 08:46 PM
Precisely. CA seems to be orchestrating, coaching and overdirecting these IMO.



Oh brother. Maybe it's me. But aren't you and Deven way over analyzing these pics? By the way, I have not seen them. Would you mind pointing the link for me? Sometimes I think this is a no win situation for the Anthony's. I think people have forgone the entire "victim" aspect of what they are enduring. Shame. Had they not taken a lot of family photo's...they would be rotten parents who didn't want to be reminded of their own flesh and blood...now that they did take family photo's it's because they wanted to show the world they were perfect family. Good gracious. Did it ever occur that they NEVER had an inkling that the world would see these photo's and it was for their own enjoyment of memories? Had they said "no comment" they were guilty...because they stated what they felt "they're guilty". I can't keep up!

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 08:48 PM
I think CA has demonstrated, that appearances & self preservation, at any cost, are paramount to humility & accountability. We have seen her unendless defense of the absurd, & now witness these same traits in KC to the extreme. CA is a force to be reckoned with! I feel anyone contending with her type of personality,(George included) would need a coat of armor, to maintain their own convictions & beliefs. Her will prevail. It's not difficult for me to see how KC developed indifference & lack of empathy. I also feel she loved Caylee, whose death resulted in some unsupervised moment. It is also unfathomable, to me, how she could withstand the crushing horror of what happened, shelve it, & go on living! I haven't heard it discussed here, so I'll throw it out to all on this thread. When I have watched the interviews with Greta, at the Anthony home, the overly conspicuous consumption of stuffed animals (which Greta commented, "I've never seen so many stuffed animals" & CA replied, "that's nothing, there's more"), toys, pictures, momentos of everything Caylee, the backyard Romper Room scene, seem so overly indulgent for 1 child, in light of the fact, that there is so much debt & apparently only one income?? Has anyone else thought it strange? Excessive emphasis on Caylee, mostly by CA paints a very disturbing picture to me, not to say grandchildren, aren't spoiled, especially by grandparents, but within their means. JMO!

KC's lack of emotion, when LA asked, "what's in this for you" (strange question) "why are you letting the police get involved?", her reply said it all, it was the one moment of clarity & truthfulness I've heard from KC, "Maybe I have been an unfit mother, a bad daughter, & bad sister, maybe this should have been done a long time ago."

(respectfully snipped) Devon made the same observation re overindulgence or overcompensating. You have to figure for someone so concerned w images and appearances, that must have been sheer #eLL to find herself living suddenly in a fishbowl w all your business, every family skeleton hung out in plain sight for the world to analyze on national tv. Her defensiveness is obvious, (re her childproofing, or pizza eg, "You know how hot it's been!") and is understandable. Yet it isn't the spoiling w things that is as much the issue as is the permissiveness, IMHO anyway. My youngest is six, and my granddaughter two. I have very limited means and spend whatever I have on them!! But my children also all know mommy doesn't play, when it comes to misbehavior, disobedience or disrespect. And I've always been far more concerned w what I'm putting on the INSIDE of my children than on the outside. ITA re KC's remark (bolded above) reveals both a weak conscience--and a consciousness of guilt. Even she recognized that boundaries probably would have been a good thing. JMO

txanmom
01-07-2009, 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=Lavanda Dolce;3139005]How can you say that? My own son was born with no ability to emphathize. Which is exactly one of the common traits among those with Aspergers, of which my son has. So how can you state that Casey was not born with the ability to have empathy? This you are definetly reaching out with. People are born without that ability.

Lavanda, my brother has asperger's, he's 28. he wasn't dx'd until he was 7 and then it was Pervasive Developmental Disorder or High Functioning Autism and **guess what** my mother was to blame. back then the parenting caused PDD's and autism. even when i was preggers with my son (now 11) I told my dr. about it and he said "oh that is not genetic, it is learned, nothing to worry about" and now evidence suggest's it has a very high genetic load. anyway,s you and i totally agree on this thread and i totally know what you have on your plate as a parent. hugs to you and your son.

kiki the parrot
01-07-2009, 09:12 PM
How can you say that? My own son was born with no ability to emphathize. Which is exactly one of the common traits among those with Aspergers, of which my son has. So how can you state that Casey was not born with the ability to have empathy? This you are definetly reaching out with. People are born without that ability.

This was not directed at you, nor was it intended to put you on the defensive. As I've already said, you needn't respond but can just disregard what you don't find helpful. JMO

Again, how can you say this? You don't know exactly what transpired. You said that CA talked Casey out of giving away the child? How do you not know that what she talked her out of was to not ABORT the child and instead to give the child up for adoption? None of us were in their living room or privy to that conversation. You can't go by hearsay on this.........nor can you state that she went along "steadily reminding KC of all she's done...and maligning her daughter". It sounds like you really are blaming a lot on a woman that you know nothing about. I may sound like I am totally defending her...but that is because none of the trial has taken place, Cindy has not gotten the opportunity to defend herself against all of these assumptions....which they are...merely assumptions...and all we know as factual is that the family was no doubt dysfunctional and Casey was a selfish spoiled self centered brat that expected the world to be one big wild party at any cost including ridding herself of all that got in her way.....her parents and her daughter. If it wasn't going to be Casey's way....it wasn't going to be theirs. That was her motto. Let's not forget she left the home on her own for 30 days. She wasn't thrown out. Casey was not about to adhere to any more rules set forth by her parents, nor threats...which as you know is what ANY GOOD parent would have done. Exactly what Cindy Anthony did. Either grow up, get responsible, get a job and take care of this child....or we will take custody. How can you negate that is a negative?

Again, not directed at you. Further there is much in the endless hours of interviews, pages of transcripts, witness statements, videos etc (which myself and some here have taken time to pour thru) which reveal all these events transpired. Reports of KC's plans to adopt, demeaning remarks KC's friends witnessed CA saying about KC etc. And btw I wasn't referring to photos but to videos when I said overdirected in which CA can be heard making directives. What I've said is based upon what I've observed--and I've seen and heard plenty. Yes her daughter became selfish and spoiled--everyone agrees on that, it's a question of why and how. No need to be defensive, nor to attack me. I hate to use "Ignore" function but you really are the one who is missing so much info here. I've done my homework lol. None of these posts were responding, nor directed, to you anyway and besides, you said ages ago you would "agree to disagree." JMO ETA: To my knowledge, KC has never been dx'd w Aspergers, nor autism, nor any other condition.

:)

evergreen
01-07-2009, 09:28 PM
I have a question about narcissists. If Casey was raised by a narcissist and that is why she turned out the way she did, then is everyone sure they are looking at the right parent? Cindy is getting the blame for everything from people on forums to George being interviewed by LE and blaming everything on Cindy. A really good narcissist would have every one believing that they are a victim and that it's really someone's else's fault. This seems to be what is being done to Cindy. Maybe she's in on it though, who knows, but what if George is the true narcissist and passed it along with nature and nurture?


GA is the "non"...He has what some folks call "nice guy" tendencies, or people pleasing tendencies. I don't see any NPD there at all. I think he is stuck in a less than desirable situation and I hope he finds the strength to find a way out.

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 09:57 PM
This was not directed at you, nor was it intended to put you on the defensive. As I've already said, you needn't respond but can just disregard what you don't find helpful. JMO



Again, not directed at you. Further there is much in the endless hours of interviews, pages of transcripts, witness statements, videos etc (which myself and some here have taken time to pour thru) which reveal all these events transpired. Reports of KC's plans to adopt, demeaning remarks KC's friends witnessed CA saying about KC etc. And btw I wasn't referring to photos but to videos when I said overdirected in which CA can be heard making directives. What I've said is based upon what I've observed--and I've seen and heard plenty. Yes her daughter became selfish and spoiled--everyone agrees on that, it's a question of why and how. No need to be defensive, nor to attack me. I hate to use "Ignore" function but you really are the one who is missing so much info here. I've done my homework lol. None of these posts were responding, nor directed, to you anyway and besides, you said ages ago you would "agree to disagree." JMO ETA: To my knowledge, KC has never been dx'd w Aspergers, nor autism, nor any other condition.

:)

And yes...that is absolutely acceptable that we agree to disagree. However, let me clarify once again...nobody ever said that KC was dx'd with Aspergers nor autism. I never said that. You stated she wasn't born lacking the ability to have empathy and I stated that you cannot say that. YES...people are born lacking the ability to not have empathy. Absolutely, positively. I used my son who does have Aspergers who was born without the ability. Let me also clarify that just because someone does not have the ability to emphasize has nothing to do with compassion for other human beings and life.

Those that do not have empathy clearly do not understand when someone next to them may be angry, joking, hurting or upset. They may question that person such as "are you mad?" this is a learning tool that is taught so that they can blend into society. THIS IS NOT A TRAIT THAT A person acquires because they were in a dysfunctional family....this is an ability they were born without...or had a lack of and were not taught how to recognize empathy.

Many people are confused by so many "tag lines" that I feel compelled to speak out and clarify the whole "empathy" dialogue. It's important. The general public needs to be aware if for any reason so that someday my son is not shot dead in a parking lot by a cop because my son has no empathy and doesn't understand that he is not to sing in public places. (Like the young man was shot and killed for singing in the Taco Bell parking lot. He was told to stop. All the social cues were there. The cop told him to stop. He didn't , he kept singing and tried to convey in his way to the cop that he was a real singer...clear to pulling his toy microphone from his shirt pocket. It was at that point he was shot dead. The cop thought it was a gun.)

People assume if one lacks empathy they are capable of committing crimes against others. That is blatantly not true...nor is it an excuse for Casey either. If she lacks empathy...and quite honestly, I question the terminology used anyhow.... Reason being...if Casey lacked empathy then how did she get along so well socially? She knew what others expected of her in a social setting. She knew when someone was upset and crying...she wasn't confused by that. She seemed to blend in quite well. Sure she has a host of problems...however, empathy I do not believe is one of them.

I believe she indeed has empathy....she just has no cares for others empathy. That was the problem...not necessarily that she herself lacked it or lacked the understanding of being emphathetic. (If my son walked up to you and stood inches from your side and you stepped away...he does not have the empathy to understand that you are sending him a message that you want space, instead he will step closer to where you moved.)

Yes, in psychiatric journals it's found that many socio and/or psychopaths lack empathy...however, that is not a determining factor. There are many psychopaths that have empathy...just no remorse, no compassion for other human beings and no cares but for their own self gratifications, whatever they may be. And there are psychopaths who may have compassion and no empathy.....we could go on and on with the exchange of "tags" but you should know this anyhow. It's obvious you, like me, have been in medicine...hence, how did you know diagnosis abbreviated is dx ? While my posts are long and dragging...please don't mistake that I am being argumentative...I am actually enjoying the fact that you and I have a total different belief in the same system. Sort of like Freud vs Skinner. ;) It makes for good thinking:)

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 10:09 PM
What I've said is based upon what I've observed--and I've seen and heard plenty. Yes her daughter became selfish and spoiled--everyone agrees on that, it's a question of why and how. No need to be defensive, nor to attack me. I hate to use "Ignore" function but you really are the one who is missing so much info here. I've done my homework lol. None of these posts were responding, nor directed, to you anyway and besides, you said ages ago you would "agree to disagree." JMO ETA: To my knowledge, KC has never been dx'd w Aspergers, nor autism, nor any other condition.

:)


And yes, I have read every report, all 700+ pages of the investigative report and pretty sure I've seen all the video's. What I have not seen, however, are the baby pics of Casey. The difference is that just you and I intrepret differently. And that is not a bad thing at all. Fact is, can you imagine if we were both in the same jury pool? LOL. Folks better bring sleeping bags and plenty of coffee;)

Brini
01-07-2009, 10:17 PM
I have a question about narcissists. If Casey was raised by a narcissist and that is why she turned out the way she did, then is everyone sure they are looking at the right parent? Cindy is getting the blame for everything from people on forums to George being interviewed by LE and blaming everything on Cindy. A really good narcissist would have every one believing that they are a victim and that it's really someone's else's fault. This seems to be what is being done to Cindy. Maybe she's in on it though, who knows, but what if George is the true narcissist and passed it along with nature and nurture?

GA looks too weak and "whipped," to me.

That house is a matriarchy.

kageykaren
01-07-2009, 10:19 PM
As I'v stated my feelings about KC and talking heads have said similar words when describing KC I would like to address the issue of the word, "Charming" when desribing psychopaths behavior. I'm curious to know if others would like to comment about how a male might feel after encountering a female psychopath. Jump in guys! It is known the psychopath use an endless stream of words. They talk, they talk around, around some more & around the actual subject. They don't say, I want something from you but smother you with ongoing, meaningless, butseemingly earnest talk about other things that somehow in their mind apply to the current problem. In one word it's BS. You know it is BS, but because you are polite or insecure your forced to sit and listen It wears you down (ex. sherrif KB), which is the point so you are more inclined to give in. Try to do an honest eval on a person to get to the truth is painful to the point of euthanasia. They don't even lie directly to you, they overwhel you with distractions, red herrings, sleight of hands. You ask them a question,"What time did you get to the house?" & for the next 20 min. you never hear the word "Time" or "house". This is why Miss KC was described by LE as being one of the toughest. I think we can say the word, "charming" should be used with caution. Thanks for listening! :clap:

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 10:25 PM
One thing I have noticed about CA, and I brought it up in my forum, is that in two seperate video's she has "accidently" called Caylee "Case". I'm wondering if there is something more to that. However, as we all know...sometimes we all call others by the wrong name in the same family...but I also noticed she caught herself doing it. Twice. One is in the video in which she is taping Caylee on her greatgrandfathers lap....the other is a video that was taped in the family home.

evergreen
01-07-2009, 10:38 PM
As I'v stated my feelings about KC and talking heads have said similar words when describing KC I would like to address the issue of the word, "Charming" when desribing psychopaths behavior. I'm curious to know if others would like to comment about how a male might feel after encountering a female psychopath. Jump in guys! It is known the psychopath use an endless stream of words. They talk, they talk around, around some more & around the actual subject. They don't say, I want something from you but smother you with ongoing, meaningless, butseemingly earnest talk about other things that somehow in their mind apply to the current problem. In one word it's BS. You know it is BS, but because you are polite or insecure your forced to sit and listen It wears you down (ex. sherrif KB), which is the point so you are more inclined to give in. Try to do an honest eval on a person to get to the truth is painful to the point of euthanasia. They don't even lie directly to you, they overwhel you with distractions, red herrings, sleight of hands. You ask them a question,"What time did you get to the house?" & for the next 20 min. you never hear the word "Time" or "house". This is why Miss KC was described by LE as being one of the toughest. I think we can say the word, "charming" should be used with caution. Thanks for listening! :clap:

Men are pretty primal. I think they are motivated a lot by their desire for sex, and will forgive some personality "quirks", at least in the beginning. :eek: Also, some men are "wired" to respond to manipulative women like KC. She triggers the savior instinct in men because she has mastered playing the woe is me victim...see Jesse for example...

debs
01-07-2009, 10:45 PM
And yes...that is absolutely acceptable that we agree to disagree. However, let me clarify once again...nobody ever said that KC was dx'd with Aspergers nor autism. I never said that. You stated she wasn't born lacking the ability to have empathy and I stated that you cannot say that. YES...people are born lacking the ability to not have empathy. Absolutely, positively. I used my son who does have Aspergers who was born without the ability. Let me also clarify that just because someone does not have the ability to emphasize has nothing to do with compassion for other human beings and life.

This paragraph makes no sense in context with Kiki's comments. Having stated that Casey was not born without the empathy chip was not to say that NO ONE could be born with problems empathizing, such as in the case of your son. It is a gross misrepresentation of Kiki's position to take such a stand against what she has said because you personally know of the possibilities in Asperger's.

Those that do not have empathy clearly do not understand when someone next to them may be angry, joking, hurting or upset. They may question that person such as "are you mad?" this is a learning tool that is taught so that they can blend into society. THIS IS NOT A TRAIT THAT A person acquires because they were in a dysfunctional family....this is an ability they were born without...or had a lack of and were not taught how to recognize empathy.

Many people are confused by so many "tag lines" that I feel compelled to speak out and clarify the whole "empathy" dialogue. It's important. The general public needs to be aware if for any reason so that someday my son is not shot dead in a parking lot by a cop because my son has no empathy and doesn't understand that he is not to sing in public places. (Like the young man was shot and killed for singing in the Taco Bell parking lot. He was told to stop. All the social cues were there. The cop told him to stop. He didn't , he kept singing and tried to convey in his way to the cop that he was a real singer...clear to pulling his toy microphone from his shirt pocket. It was at that point he was shot dead. The cop thought it was a gun.)

I am puzzled again at what this has to do with what Kiki was saying. There is a vast difference between Asperger's which you want to continue to imply is in play in this tragic case of the death of Caylee Anthony. At every turn, Kiki has presented very eloquently that it was a confluence of a great number of things that brought Casey to where she is now, not the least of which is the (still quite demonstrable) contradictory parenting whereby a child is protected from the worst offenses and punished for the most ridiculous of things. I hope in your life no one has EVER dared accuse you of having parented your son to cause the symptoms of Asperger's that makes it difficult for him in society. You obviously have a great love for your son and a fear of what could potentially happen to him due to the public's lack of knowledge and understanding. I believe you're doing him a great service in raising awareness. Godspeed with that.

People assume if one lacks empathy they are capable of committing crimes against others. That is blatantly not true...nor is it an excuse for Casey either. If she lacks empathy...and quite honestly, I question the terminology used anyhow.... Reason being...if Casey lacked empathy then how did she get along so well socially? She knew what others expected of her in a social setting. She knew when someone was upset and crying...she wasn't confused by that. She seemed to blend in quite well. Sure she has a host of problems...however, empathy I do not believe is one of them.

I believe she indeed has empathy....she just has no cares for others empathy. That was the problem...not necessarily that she herself lacked it or lacked the understanding of being emphathetic. (If my son walked up to you and stood inches from your side and you stepped away...he does not have the empathy to understand that you are sending him a message that you want space, instead he will step closer to where you moved.)

Yes, in psychiatric journals it's found that many socio and/or psychopaths lack empathy...however, that is not a determining factor. There are many psychopaths that have empathy...just no remorse, no compassion for other human beings and no cares but for their own self gratifications, whatever they may be. And there are psychopaths who may have compassion and no empathy.....we could go on and on with the exchange of "tags" but you should know this anyhow. It's obvious you, like me, have been in medicine...hence, how did you know diagnosis abbreviated is dx ? While my posts are long and dragging...please don't mistake that I am being argumentative...I am actually enjoying the fact that you and I have a total different belief in the same system. Sort of like Freud vs Skinner. ;) It makes for good thinking:)

This is precisely what Kiki has been stating! Beautifully put! Casey makes CHOICES that are destructive in life, perhaps with the ultimate destruction of her daughter being the ultimate tragedy in her attempt to do what she wanted to do. There is absolutely NO question in my mind that Casey was willful in her destructive behavior, making poor choices repeatedly. However, Kiki and I have both stated that it is because of a long pattern of destructive parenting in her life that brought her to this point, not a genetic problem. Her social life certainly never suffered (until she stole from friends, but then she just changed her group of friends). She is a very selfish young woman. You are so right to say she feels for others. She just doesn't CARE that she's caused them problems, because her immediate need is to get something for herself. It is THIS that is at the root of what Kiki and I talk about. Her need for approval and love has been so distorted with the twisted parenting of punishment/permissiveness that in the end, for Casey, she had no reason to care if she got caught stealing or lying.

I think you and Kiki have much more common ground than you thought!

Lavanda Dolce
01-07-2009, 11:12 PM
There is a vast difference between Asperger's which you want to continue to imply is in play in this tragic case of the death of Caylee Anthony.

No. I have never stated such, nor am I implying in any way that Aspergers, autism, ADHD, or any other diagnosed medical condition is in play with Casey Anthony. Quite the contrary. I am, however, a bit "touchy" on the word lacks empathy as it is used to correlate with psycho-sociopathic behaviors. Even textbooks will show that is a "symptom" of psychopathic behaviors. (lacks empathy) When that is not necessarily true. There are a whole host of personality disorders that can be used but that does not mean that all psychopaths exhibit all of the personality disorders. And yes, Kiki stated that Casey was not born with the lack of empathy. I simply stated that how does she know that? She doesn't know if she lacks empathy and or was born lacking empathy or grew to ignore empathetic cues. And yes, KiKi and I have agreed on a number of things...and we have opposite views on other thoughts, as well. That's what makes us all unique :)

kageykaren
01-07-2009, 11:29 PM
Lavanda I feel compelled to share a story about my son which is something I have never shared in a public forumn, but I feel could help you understand. The majority of the public is unaware on a day to day basis all thr different types of brain disorders for ex: The many forms of mental illness, Your sons disability Asperbers and my sons disability of epiepsy. I found how much we had to gently educate everyone around in his immediate enviroment. I'm sorry to say we can't control the ignorance of others. The highschool Le officer was telling everyone walking home from school to get off school grounds, when my son didn't move (complex-partial) the officer grabbed him through him up against a car while he was having a grandmal. He thought my son was making fun of him. Needless to say, the schoolboard implemented training session for epilepsy, Hopefully society will keep getting smarter, more compassionate for those who are differently able. :blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 12:25 AM
Oh brother. Maybe it's me. But aren't you and Deven way over analyzing these pics? By the way, I have not seen them. Would you mind pointing the link for me? Sometimes I think this is a no win situation for the Anthony's. I think people have forgone the entire "victim" aspect of what they are enduring. Shame. Had they not taken a lot of family photo's...they would be rotten parents who didn't want to be reminded of their own flesh and blood...now that they did take family photo's it's because they wanted to show the world they were perfect family. Good gracious. Did it ever occur that they NEVER had an inkling that the world would see these photo's and it was for their own enjoyment of memories? Had they said "no comment" they were guilty...because they stated what they felt "they're guilty". I can't keep up!

Unreal! I came to finish my post from earlier but just had to stop and respond to this post. You are telling two people that they are over analyzing pics but then you mention that you have not even seen them?!?! How in the world would you know if they are over analyzing something you yourself have not even SEEN?!!?

cfromcanada
01-08-2009, 02:26 AM
Wow..what a debate!! I have to chime in on nature vrs nuture though. I come from a family of five children. One is now in jail for several petty crimes. He is 42 and a drug addict. Another one, an older sister, shows clear signs of sociopathy and has raised four children. Two are doing fine, one is in jail for child molesting and the other is a girl who insists on being in abusive relationships. The remainder of us, are all relatively successful, law abiding citizens that love animals, small children and old people. We are good and honest people. Our parents raised us the same way, same values, same environment...I have to believe that genetics plays a large role. However, I believe that nuture can beat genetics if parents get the help they need. When we were growing up, it was unheard of to haul your pathological liar of a kid to pyschiatrist. Old fashioned parenting remedies were applied and of course, failed.They worked with the "normal" children, why did the other two not respond accordingly? We were also farm kids and I don't think my parents would have thought of things like mental illness, sociopathy, etc. but I know they still wonder wth happened back there?!!!

sunflowerchick
01-08-2009, 03:48 AM
My question is: Is it our society, the "world in which we live" that is contributing to, what seems to me, a growing number of particularly younger people affected with this? Also, since the inception of the internet, video games & the ever accelerating, information gathering, overloading world we are now forced to keep up with, it begs the question is "sensory overload =Sensory Depravation?

Would love to hear from the experts on this.

(Bolded by me) I know this was brought up a while ago in this thread, but I wanted to contribute something that may be helpful. There is an illness known as Sensory Integration Dysfunction. This is not a mental illness, but rather something that can be treated with physical therapy. It is an issue where the receptors in the brain do not appropriately process the senses, such as touch, taste, smell, balance, etc. They either over process or under process sensory information. I am not sure if this could be applied to KC or how it would affect someone as an adult. This is usually diagnosed and treated in children, and most people who receive physical therapy can live "normal" lives. I do think that some of KC's behaviors might be explained by this type of issue.

chizap
01-08-2009, 06:36 AM
Such a great post Kiki, I know people have a hard time understanding this "learned behavior", referenced in a powerful book, "Memes" (basically we are born with the "genes", the ones we rode in on the bus with) But, these so-called "memes" are a Powerful set of instilled feelings injected in us from parental influences. It certainly made me think about what was hardwired in myself by my own mother, fortunately for me mostly good, & it's awarness hits me daily. I think CA has demonstrated, that appearances & self preservation, at any cost, are paramount to humility & accountability. We have seen her unendless defense of the absurd, & now witness these same traits in KC to the extreme. CA is a force to be reckoned with! I feel anyone contending with her type of personality,(George included) would need a coat of armor, to maintain their own convictions & beliefs. Her will prevail. It's not difficult for me to see how KC developed indifference & lack of empathy. I also feel she loved Caylee, whose death resulted in some unsupervised moment. It is also unfathomable, to me, how she could withstand the crushing horror of what happened, shelve it, & go on living! I haven't heard it discussed here, so I'll throw it out to all on this thread. When I have watched the interviews with Greta, at the Anthony home, the overly conspicuous consumption of stuffed animals (which Greta commented, "I've never seen so many stuffed animals" & CA replied, "that's nothing, there's more"), toys, pictures, momentos of everything Caylee, the backyard Romper Room scene, seem so overly indulgent for 1 child, in light of the fact, that there is so much debt & apparently only one income?? Has anyone else thought it strange? Excessive emphasis on Caylee, mostly by CA paints a very disturbing picture to me, not to say grandchildren, aren't spoiled, especially by grandparents, but within their means. JMO!

KC's lack of emotion, when LA asked, "what's in this for you" (strange question) "why are you letting the police get involved?", her reply said it all, it was the one moment of clarity & truthfulness I've heard from KC, "Maybe I have been an unfit mother, a bad daughter, & bad sister, maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

bolded by me-the lies of the entire family have given this unfortunate situation its "over the top" circuslike atmosphere- but THIS TRUTH stated by KC is loud and clear to me along with some other truths she has laced in amongst the "storyline"
She said it loud and clear ..."from Day One (day 31)"

chizap
01-08-2009, 06:42 AM
Lavanda I feel compelled to share a story about my son which is something I have never shared in a public forumn, but I feel could help you understand. The majority of the public is unaware on a day to day basis all thr different types of brain disorders for ex: The many forms of mental illness, Your sons disability Asperbers and my sons disability of epiepsy. I found how much we had to gently educate everyone around in his immediate enviroment. I'm sorry to say we can't control the ignorance of others. The highschool Le officer was telling everyone walking home from school to get off school grounds, when my son didn't move (complex-partial) the officer grabbed him through him up against a car while he was having a grandmal. He thought my son was making fun of him. Needless to say, the schoolboard implemented training session for epilepsy, Hopefully society will keep getting smarter, more compassionate for those who are differently able. :blowkiss:
I am sensitive to this also- my uncle was beat to death by LAPD while he was having an epilectic attack - they thought he was drunk in public- It was some time ago and not too much was known about epilepsy back then- Sorry about your son's epilepsy-

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 07:45 AM
Lavanda I feel compelled to share a story about my son which is something I have never shared in a public forumn, but I feel could help you understand. The majority of the public is unaware on a day to day basis all thr different types of brain disorders for ex: The many forms of mental illness, Your sons disability Asperbers and my sons disability of epiepsy. I found how much we had to gently educate everyone around in his immediate enviroment. I'm sorry to say we can't control the ignorance of others. The highschool Le officer was telling everyone walking home from school to get off school grounds, when my son didn't move (complex-partial) the officer grabbed him through him up against a car while he was having a grandmal. He thought my son was making fun of him. Needless to say, the schoolboard implemented training session for epilepsy, Hopefully society will keep getting smarter, more compassionate for those who are differently able. :blowkiss:



And I do soooooooo understand what you are saying! I imagine that had you very upset and hurt. I'm sorry to hear this. The public needs awareness and I believe parents are where it should begin. I'm not necessarily talking about parents of the child with differences, I'm talking about parents in general. They need to educate their children to not make fun of, or talk about other children who are different. Kids can be cruel...and adults can be ignorant.

I know a very nice young man who has tourettes syndrome and he has serious episodes of having a hard time going out in public because of the reactions he gets from people and I can certainly understand his fears. He told me once that he refused to go to outpatient at the hospital as he knew in the lobby he would utter repeatedly "bad words" such as the "n" word and the lobby had a lot of african americans. He says it makes him fear they would retaliate. I suggested that he carry a small business card that simply states "I have tourettes" and for it to explain in a few sentences what tourettes consists of. When he is in a situation he can hand the card to whomever may be lashing out at him.

I also worked with a young woman who had complex partial seizures who came to me to tell me as nobody at work was aware and she did not want them to be aware. She sought me out in case she would have a seizure that I be there for her. Her seizure consists of repetitive motions in which she undresses herself while in a "blank state". So you can imagine I was constantly looking out for her!

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 07:59 AM
I am sensitive to this also- my uncle was beat to death by LAPD while he was having an epilectic attack - they thought he was drunk in public- It was some time ago and not too much was known about epilepsy back then- Sorry about your son's epilepsy-

That is absolutely awful and I'm very sorry to hear what happened to your uncle. I just cannot imagine what his family went through:(

I've known this also happens with diabetics...with the police. However, most LE is now pretty well educated on what to look for with diabetics. They can appear to be drunk or intoxicated when in fact it is their diabetes. What further makes it difficult is that they can have the smell of alcohol on their breath and they have never taken a drink. This is why it is important for those with conditions to wear a bracelet or necklace to identify their medical need. It's also very difficult to try and have a teenager to do this as it stands out to their peers. <sigh>

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 08:01 AM
bolded by me-the lies of the entire family have given this unfortunate situation its "over the top" circuslike atmosphere- but THIS TRUTH stated by KC is loud and clear to me along with some other truths she has laced in amongst the "storyline"
She said it loud and clear ..."from Day One (day 31)"


I think the very moment I heard the "kidnap story" and learned it was not reported for 30 days was the clincher for me of her guilt.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 08:02 AM
Regarding Casey being a model inmate, I think her being a model inmate is only until convicted. Then, if she doesnít commit suicide, she will most likely go the way of inmate Susan S. in South Carolina ... using sex for power, which is an extremely serious and dangerous violation of rules for inmates and staff. Using sex for power and control is one of her primary survival strategies and about the only asset she has left, a very powerful tool for bartering and trading with staff in prison. Casey always takes the easy way out, the path of least resistance, so suicide is a high risk and so is bartering and trading with sex.

Only opinions,
Russell

I missed this post yesterday with all the other postings going on. ITA with every word you have said in this post. I had brought up quite awhile ago that I felt she may kill herself rather than go to prison (think Melinda Duckett) or confess. Anyway, I think you are dead on with this!

txanmom
01-08-2009, 09:28 AM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!

JBean
01-08-2009, 09:32 AM
Good morning and knock off the bickerfest :blowkiss:
Remember, when you tell someone you are putting them on ignore, you are not ignoring them at all.

reeseeva
01-08-2009, 09:40 AM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!

Just a thought, I have 2 sons in Genetics, & their work has involved speculation that pesticides, food additives, & a host of chemicals in our enviroment, as well as the "pharmacologizing of America" has led to some significant changes in our genectic structure.

PaddieAB
01-08-2009, 09:45 AM
How about this theory...
Many physiologists believe that the ultimate significant event in the shaping a child’s level of honesty is whether someone catches the child the VERY FIRST time they lie or steal, which happens before the age of six. Future events do not have the same impact - the brain is programmed by that first event. The first event is most often something as innocent as a child having bubblegum in their pocket that you do not remember buying for them - where did you get that bubblegum?...oh my my friend Johnny gave it to me. But the child stole that bubblegum off the shelf.

This first event does not necessarily happen under parents control - it might be when a child is with relatives or a babysitter, anyone. I believe Casey was not caught the first time, and so whatever consequences she faced for future events didn’t truly teach her that lying was wrong. She was bright enough to learn how to manipulate and appease her parents - she became adept at feeding their love with apologies and a flash of a smile - she plays on their love, hope and forgiveness - and we saw lots of this during the tapes of the jail interviews.

While many are blaming Casey’s parents for how she was raised, I notice no discussion at all around the significance of peer pressure, which plays an even greater role throughout and onward of adolescence.

So lets talk about adolescence. As a child who lies grows older what should happen is they learn they can’t lie and deceive friends, bosses or co-workers, even if it worked to manipulate their “stupid parents”. The consequence of lying to good friends is that friends drop them like flies. This didn’t happen even in the most significant point in Casey’s life - when Caylee was born. Look at her relationship with Jesse. She conned him through and through. But three years later Jesse still defends Casey as some lovely person he once knew - even after the fact now knowing she played a role in the death of Caylee. What were the consequences of conning people that Casey learned from Jesse? That she could lie and deceive and still be loved? (Two peas in a pod IMO.)

We know that the friends Casey went on to choose recently were not looking for a Casey/daughter relationship, so I imagine for them it was easy to believe the nanny stories. Casey conned her friends about her entire lifestyle. However at the time they didn’t realize they were being conned - Casey didn’t get caught - so no consequences to her, in fact she played the “good mother” role with everyone - not just her parents. (I'm in no way blaming friends - just saying she was adept at conning...)

So IMO awfully one-sided to throw Casey’s parents in the enabling bucket alone without looking at EVERYONE around Casey. Everyone influences everyones thoughts and actions in some way - if we chose to play the blame game. Is everyone then accountable - her parents and each of her friends? Of course not!

Casey is responsible for whatever she did to Caylee. She is not insane as she has the ability to admit lying to LE about her job at Universal Studios. This is her time to tell the complete truth, REGARDLESS of who she draws into it, and face the consequences. Instead she has fallen into the net of yet another pack of enablers who are preventing her from facing consequences for her actions - called her defense team.

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 10:03 AM
Unreal! I came to finish my post from earlier but just had to stop and respond to this post. You are telling two people that they are over analyzing pics but then you mention that you have not even seen them?!?! How in the world would you know if they are over analyzing something you yourself have not even SEEN?!!?

It's overanalyzing when one is talking about looking at pics of family photo's and then to state "they were staged to let the world think they are a perfect family". That's overanalyzing. One doesn't have to see the pics to understand that. right? ;)

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 10:05 AM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!


Yes, I believe I did reply to your post? My apologies if I didn't. Science and medicine has come a long way. Thank goodness!! :)

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Just a thought, I have 2 sons in Genetics, & their work has involved speculation that pesticides, food additives, & a host of chemicals in our enviroment, as well as the "pharmacologizing of America" has led to some significant changes in our genectic structure.


I agree, 100% By the way, love your doggy:)

Knot4u2no
01-08-2009, 10:11 AM
Just my 2 cents. I think there is a lot more agreement on this thread than disagreement. The nature/nurture contributions to a personís development and character are more of a dance than an either/or proposition, regardless of the personís genetic predispositions or the characteristics of the external learning environment ... and the internal learning environment (i.e., thoughts/imagination) becomes increasingly important as a human develops. It is true that some people are born with genetic limitations (e.g., Autism Spectrum Disorders) which directly influence their capacity for empathy and understanding the nuances of relationships and related communication processes, but they still learn to be more or less social within the limits of their cognitive capacities, learning opportunities, life experiences, and how they are related to by others. Regarding Aspergerís Disorder, the following is a link to an article on Shadowraithís website. I think it makes the point that being born with Aspergerís Disorder does not translate into criminal conduct. I thought it was an important point to make because of the number of articles that link a subcategory of serial killers to Aspergerís Disorder.

A BRACE Character Profile Analysis of Aspergerís Disorder related to
General Criminal Conduct, Psychopathy, and Serial Homicide

http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/165/9/

Russell

icherish
01-08-2009, 12:02 PM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!

Great post, txanmom.:blowkiss:
As the mother of a 11 year old son on the autistic spectrum, I am well aware of the old "refrigerator mother"/failure to bond theory. Believe me, there is little worse than being told that your beautiful, beloved child has a developmental disability that will adversly affect the rest of his life. To think of being told by professionals (albeit erroneously) that YOU caused it by failing to bond with your baby...my God. :eek: Remembering the sea of emotions I lived in while coming to terms with the reality of my son's dx, I just cannot fathom how loving mothers of years past were able to reconcile such a thing within themselves. The confusion, devastation and guilt must've been all but intolerable. Of course today, we know professionals have abandoned that absurd theory. It is now thought that autism is a neurobiological disorder, caused most likely by a genetic predisposition and possibly influenced by certain environmental factors (ex: autoimmune overload due to chemical and/or viral exposure).
That said, to this day no one has proven exactly what causes autism. Contrary to what I have read in a few posts here, no one has proven or knows precisely what causes sociopathy, either. My feeling is, there is very likely a neurobiologically based genetic component to it as well. It would not surprise me if we learn that sociopathy is a "distant cousin" disorder, if you will, of autistic spectrum disorder. Even though it seems the two disorders could be hardly related, the fundamental lack of empathy and socio-emotional maladjustment are undeniably hallmarks of both.

Just my :twocents:

Sammi99
01-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Lavanda I feel compelled to share a story about my son which is something I have never shared in a public forumn, but I feel could help you understand. The majority of the public is unaware on a day to day basis all thr different types of brain disorders for ex: The many forms of mental illness, Your sons disability Asperbers and my sons disability of epiepsy. I found how much we had to gently educate everyone around in his immediate enviroment. I'm sorry to say we can't control the ignorance of others. The highschool Le officer was telling everyone walking home from school to get off school grounds, when my son didn't move (complex-partial) the officer grabbed him through him up against a car while he was having a grandmal. He thought my son was making fun of him. Needless to say, the schoolboard implemented training session for epilepsy, Hopefully society will keep getting smarter, more compassionate for those who are differently able. :blowkiss:


I am so sorry your son had to endure getting grabbed by an officer during a seizure. I wish people were more aware of epilepsy, autism, and many other conditions that make our kids react differently to situations. Ignorance needs to be replaced by education.

kageykaren
01-08-2009, 12:34 PM
:twocents: On a lighter note, I hope someday all the nuerosciences open up clinics for brain tweeking in the problematic regions. No more brain alterating medications, that have so many side effects. It might be a boring world then. Until there are less evasive forms of therapy I'm going to embrace all people of different backgrounds. This excludes mean people.

icherish
01-08-2009, 01:26 PM
:twocents: On a lighter note, I hope someday all the nuerosciences open up clinics for brain tweeking in the problematic regions. No more brain alterating medications, that have so many side effects. It might be a boring world then. Until there are less evasive forms of therapy I'm going to embrace all people of different backgrounds. This excludes mean people.

:blowkiss:

reeseeva
01-08-2009, 01:30 PM
I agree, 100% By the way, love your doggy:) Thank You....Yours is adorable too..They are Mother & Son

They are all Precious Angels:angel::angel:

kiki the parrot
01-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Good morning and knock off the bickerfest :blowkiss:
Remember, when you tell someone you are putting them on ignore, you are not ignoring them at all.

Good morning JBean, thank you for the kind reminder :) I try to at least respect other's right to their opinion even when I disagree, especially when it is an emotional topic. It's also helpful to any discussion when everyone's taken time to familiarize themselves w the case, previous posts etc or at least sticks to topic or threads can be detoured way OT (this is the KC and Anthony family psych thread, right...?) It's always helpful to remember too when we tell someone we will "agree to disagree" yet continue reacting (even when others are being addressed), arguing or being confrontational, we are not really agreeing to disagree. Thanks again for playing peacemaker, and have a great day! JMO
:blowkiss:

kageykaren
01-08-2009, 04:22 PM
After watching todays court hearings we can safely say KC is coherant, displays flat affect(most likely told to remain quiet, show no emotion, do not look around. Defense keeping her contained), possibly on meds, nopuffy eyes from weeks of crying, other than flat affect behavior appropriate for occasion. HMMMM! we are no more further in guessing possible psychiatric dimestore diagnosis. If I were a layman watching the courtroom proceedings I would say cold blooded, void of emotion, criminal. I was so glad KC was able to see young girls laughing, enjoying there freedom to witness KC 's hearing.

kiki the parrot
01-08-2009, 05:28 PM
After watching todays court hearings we can safely say KC is coherant, displays flat affect(most likely told to remain quiet, show no emotion, do not look around. Defense keeping her contained), possibly on meds, nopuffy eyes from weeks of crying, other than flat affect behavior appropriate for occasion. HMMMM! we are no more further in guessing possible psychiatric dimestore diagnosis. If I were a layman watching the courtroom proceedings I would say cold blooded, void of emotion, criminal. I was so glad KC was able to see young girls laughing, enjoying there freedom to witness KC 's hearing.

I am sure KC's well aware of the likelihood she will, best case scenario, be fortunate to spend the next 70 years or the remainder of her life behind bars. I too watched her expression closely for signs of emotion, and I too concluded she looked medicated (sedated). So given this, along w/ sudden unexpected summons to appear in court, she was probably just trying to stay focused, comprehend proceedings (ie decipher arguments, or just understand the judge's decisions like I was trying to do!) and I'm not sure I'd have managed much better under the circumstances. I have to remind myself this is a 22 yr-old who prior to six mos. ago had never been in a courtroom much less institutionalized; and who has been in the jail's protective custody w no outside contact. She certainly did not appear the picture of "defiance," as some have suggested, nor of a coldblooded sociopath. To me it simply struck me as more the "deer in the headlights" expression--a little off guard as she takes in everything--which I'd honestly not seen since after her first (or 2nd?) arrest when initially held on bond. The girls' conduct was, needless to say, totally inappropriate. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:01 PM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!

I absolutely think there is a genetic link. no doubt in my mind.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:04 PM
Just a thought, I have 2 sons in Genetics, & their work has involved speculation that pesticides, food additives, & a host of chemicals in our enviroment, as well as the "pharmacologizing of America" has led to some significant changes in our genectic structure.

Oh gosh, I don't doubt it. I often wonder if there is an effect from our parents past drug abuse, prior to pregnancy, things like that.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:12 PM
:twocents: On a lighter note, I hope someday all the nuerosciences open up clinics for brain tweeking in the problematic regions. No more brain alterating medications, that have so many side effects. It might be a boring world then. Until there are less evasive forms of therapy I'm going to embrace all people of different backgrounds. This excludes mean people.

LOL good thought! Ya know what though, I think I'd skip the clinic.. oddly enough I really think I'd miss my Bipolar.

kageykaren
01-08-2009, 06:13 PM
Science as we speak is in the forefront of being to help so many people with brain disorders. Our family can't wait till the cost of fine tuneing the brain is at least comparable to plastic surgery. lol Dr. s. Guta nuerosurgeon, stated recently that we recieve 50% genetically & 50% learned. I have stated my sons seizure disorder to all the bloggers but I also have worked with quadrapeligics and am so excited with the latest discoveries of the brain. Vote stemcell research! Lower the cost of education so more young people can afford to attend med school. Don't get me going !

kageykaren
01-08-2009, 06:20 PM
1 lost girl, I'm singing to you: "Don't go changin!", I wouldn't want you any different. These types of surgeries would only be for people who want a change. Wouldn't that be something to be able to attache a new brain wave personality for every occasion. I'm cracking myself up hear and realize I'm in an inappropriate mood today. Time for tea & dancing. Aloha!

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 06:24 PM
Just my 2 cents. I think there is a lot more agreement on this thread than disagreement. The nature/nurture contributions to a personís development and character are more of a dance than an either/or proposition, regardless of the personís genetic predispositions or the characteristics of the external learning environment ... and the internal learning environment (i.e., thoughts/imagination) becomes increasingly important as a human develops. It is true that some people are born with genetic limitations (e.g., Autism Spectrum Disorders) which directly influence their capacity for empathy and understanding the nuances of relationships and related communication processes, but they still learn to be more or less social within the limits of their cognitive capacities, learning opportunities, life experiences, and how they are related to by others. Regarding Aspergerís Disorder, the following is a link to an article on Shadowraithís website. I think it makes the point that being born with Aspergerís Disorder does not translate into criminal conduct. I thought it was an important point to make because of the number of articles that link a subcategory of serial killers to Aspergerís Disorder.

A BRACE Character Profile Analysis of Aspergerís Disorder related to
General Criminal Conduct, Psychopathy, and Serial Homicide

http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/165/9/

Russell

thank you for the informative link :)

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 06:28 PM
Thank You....Yours is adorable too..They are Mother & Son

They are all Precious Angels:angel::angel:

Awwwwww. And yes, I love dogs! And cats and birds and all creatures:) Mine is 3.5 months old, her name is Molly. She was born on Sept 11 which happens to also be my daughters birthday. She is the sweetest. It's like having a baby in the house! I love her hugs, kisses and she just loves loves loves the snow! (sorry all. I know it's OT) We had Rosie, our Lhasa Apso who was 18.5 years old and had to be put down in late October. It was so hard and terribly depressing. Molly has filled a spot in our lives in her own special way and I just know Rosie in doggie heaven is watching out for her "little sister" :)

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 06:30 PM
After watching todays court hearings we can safely say KC is coherant, displays flat affect(most likely told to remain quiet, show no emotion, do not look around. Defense keeping her contained), possibly on meds, nopuffy eyes from weeks of crying, other than flat affect behavior appropriate for occasion. HMMMM! we are no more further in guessing possible psychiatric dimestore diagnosis. If I were a layman watching the courtroom proceedings I would say cold blooded, void of emotion, criminal. I was so glad KC was able to see young girls laughing, enjoying there freedom to witness KC 's hearing.


Hi Karen, I didn't get to "see" the court hearing but I did listen to it in my car on satellite. Her voice sounded very "upbeat"...so it will be interesting to see the video of the hearing once it is posted. I was glad the judge made them go and get her. Bet it ruined her day. Good.

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 06:33 PM
I am sure KC's well aware of the likelihood she will, best case scenario, be fortunate to spend the next 70 years or the remainder of her life behind bars. I too watched her expression closely for signs of emotion, and I too concluded she looked medicated (sedated). So given this, along w/ sudden unexpected summons to appear in court, she was probably just trying to stay focused, comprehend proceedings (ie decipher arguments, or just understand the judge's decisions like I was trying to do!) and I'm not sure I'd have managed much better under the circumstances. I have to remind myself this is a 22 yr-old who prior to six mos. ago had never been in a courtroom much less institutionalized; and who has been in the jail's protective custody w no outside contact. She certainly did not appear the picture of "defiance," as some have suggested, nor of a coldblooded sociopath. To me it simply struck me as more the "deer in the headlights" expression--a little off guard as she takes in everything--which I'd honestly not seen since after her first (or 2nd?) arrest when initially held on bond. The girls' conduct was, needless to say, totally inappropriate. JMO

I'm wondering if they gave her something right before exiting for the courtroom? Can you imagine if they have her drugged through the trial? Can they do that? Course she will more than likely not testify...nobody rarely does. I was very disappointed to hear the commentator (Atty) on the radio say that her trial could be one maybe two years down the road and possibly longer if they want to drag it out. He said that everyone, including those volunteers that were on the searches could literally be subpaneod as witnesses! I cannot imagine! I think we all are hoping for a trial and soon.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:37 PM
Good morning JBean, thank you for the kind reminder :) I try to at least respect other's right to their opinion even when I disagree, especially when it is an emotional topic. It's also helpful to any discussion when everyone's taken time to familiarize themselves w the case, previous posts etc or at least sticks to topic or threads can be detoured way OT (this is the KC and Anthony family psych thread, right...?) It's always helpful to remember too when we tell someone we will "agree to disagree" yet continue reacting (even when others are being addressed), arguing or being confrontational, we are not really agreeing to disagree. Thanks again for playing peacemaker, and have a great day! JMO
:blowkiss:

:blowkiss:

txanmom
01-08-2009, 06:39 PM
Lavanda, glad you saw my post, must have missed your response, so sorry!

OneLostGirl, my mother admitted to smoking pot while pregnant WITH me, wonder what that did? lol, may be why my spelling is bad and i have absolutely NO attention span, haha!

kiki, i agree with you observations of kc during todays hearing. i watched the entire thing (and still somehow completed all my housecleaning, yipeee) and i agree with you and would like to add i noticed she laughed or smiled 2-3 times when others in court did the same. could this be her sociopathic tendency to mimic other's behaviors?

as a side note, i was inspired to google sociopaths and what causes them...there were many articles about new info emerging about brain anomalies/damage/or underdevelopment in **i believe** the pre-frontal cortex. many older studies from 1944 and 1968 had observed parental environments as the primary cause. I don't know how to link or i would.

reeseva, i agree with you so much - i think environmental concerns and all this bioengineering of produce/dosing of med's to animals in our food supply is going to be found to have a much larger impact than people imagined on development. i have even heard because of the foods we are eating that girls are undergoing puberty and starting their periods at younger and younger ages. interesting since our life expectancy is rising at the same time.

since we are talking about kc and the entire families psychological states, what are your thoughts on LEE?

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:40 PM
1 lost girl, I'm singing to you: "Don't go changin!", I wouldn't want you any different. These types of surgeries would only be for people who want a change. Wouldn't that be something to be able to attache a new brain wave personality for every occasion. I'm cracking myself up hear and realize I'm in an inappropriate mood today. Time for tea & dancing. Aloha!

hahah!! a mini mania! :)

Crafti
01-08-2009, 06:52 PM
wow, things are going a little off track here. Lavanda, did you see my earlier post about my brother also having Asperger's? The main reason i put it out there was because back then (only 20 short years ago) that and many other PDD disorder's were NOT considered genetic and WERE considered caused due to the PARENTING. Nowaday's many agree that it actually is genetic. I guess my main argument with nature vs nurture is that we are speedily finding out more and more psychological disorders DO have a genetic load. Heck, it's only been in the last 40 years or so that any of these disorders are even diagnosed and spoken about as they were thought to be personality quirks or flaws or cold and indifferent parents.

Other posters, what do you think about evolving science saying that more of these types of things actually do have a genetic component? Do you think in the future we will see science isolating these as genetic problems or will they move away from that and see it as parental environment only?

Thank you for any replys!

I think it's both. Genetics and parenting that causes the worst personality disorders. I think with appropriate parenting (which depends on the child's behavior and problems) the genetic element can be minimized but not fully eliminated.

I think it's been proven that the most coddled, spoiled, children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. And on the other hand, I think it's been proven that even severly abused children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. No rhyme or reason from a purely parenting stance, but when you add genetics to the mix, I think that's where the real bigger personality disorders occur.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 06:54 PM
I am sure KC's well aware of the likelihood she will, best case scenario, be fortunate to spend the next 70 years or the remainder of her life behind bars. I too watched her expression closely for signs of emotion, and I too concluded she looked medicated (sedated). So given this, along w/ sudden unexpected summons to appear in court, she was probably just trying to stay focused, comprehend proceedings (ie decipher arguments, or just understand the judge's decisions like I was trying to do!) and I'm not sure I'd have managed much better under the circumstances. I have to remind myself this is a 22 yr-old who prior to six mos. ago had never been in a courtroom much less institutionalized; and who has been in the jail's protective custody w no outside contact. She certainly did not appear the picture of "defiance," as some have suggested, nor of a coldblooded sociopath. To me it simply struck me as more the "deer in the headlights" expression--a little off guard as she takes in everything--which I'd honestly not seen since after her first (or 2nd?) arrest when initially held on bond. The girls' conduct was, needless to say, totally inappropriate. JMO

She looks OK, imo. She is a pretty thing anyway. She seems to be ok, though not great.. she doesn't seem happy nor sad. I wonder what she thinks of before she goes to sleep at night?

If ya'll recall, I am of the opinion that she feels, but she can just shut it on and off.

Ginnie
01-08-2009, 06:55 PM
I guess Debs theory makes it easier to understand the mess KC has made of her life, I am eager to see if things actually play out in court as she described....I do believe it will..

Crafti
01-08-2009, 07:05 PM
i still don't know how to snip posts so bolding is mine and i would like to respond to this part. maybe it is childish of me, but i in my own i life always stare into people's eyes when i talk to them or they talk to me. it is also the first thing i am drawn to in pictures of people and childish or not, there is something OFF in pictures of kc as a child or adult TO ME. she just looks masklike and not normal to me. but, maybe you are right about the things i know about her now coloring my view of her. but, i will tell you this, i often get gut feelings about people and so far i have never been wrong, in my own life anyways.

kiki, i like all of your posts i think all of you on this thread are extremely intelligent and insiteful to me at least and i really like learning from you.

ps. i know my spelling is atrocious, sorry....(insert little embarrassed smiley here)

I agree with you. Once you recognize the "look in the eye" of someone like KC, you can look back and see it was always there. Hate to mention it again, but I saw the same thing with my antisocial x. Vacant eyes. He had 3 sisters and one brother. Parents are well-to-do, but actually drowning in debt, but have to keep up appearances. He could do no wrong, even when arrested (that's just boys being boys). His mother and one of his sisters has the same exact look to the eyes, just vacant. I know what you mean.

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 07:37 PM
I think it's both. Genetics and parenting that causes the worst personality disorders. I think with appropriate parenting (which depends on the child's behavior and problems) the genetic element can be minimized but not fully eliminated.

I think it's been proven that the most coddled, spoiled, children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. And on the other hand, I think it's been proven that even severly abused children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. No rhyme or reason from a purely parenting stance, but when you add genetics to the mix, I think that's where the real bigger personality disorders occur.

Crafti, I so agree! Also, environment plays a role...and I'm not talking so much about the toxins in the air, etc..(which can have a factor) but more the "environment and opportunities" that one physically grows up in. (were they stuck in a very low income housing area in which they grew up with the sounds of gunshots all around?)Someone mentioned peer pressure earlier and that certainly has a lot to do with the formulation of one's self esteem and I believe that also plays a role. I am a strong believer in how important it is for children to have social outlets and to socialize with those outside of their immediate family unit. One thing I have noticed, in my life, those that seem to have a lot more problems tend to be in situations in which they are basically raised within their own circle of aunts/uncles/cousins and do not have many, if any, associations outside of their "circle".

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 07:40 PM
She looks OK, imo. She is a pretty thing anyway. She seems to be ok, though not great.. she doesn't seem happy nor sad. I wonder what she thinks of before she goes to sleep at night?

If ya'll recall, I am of the opinion that she feels, but she can just shut it on and off.

Moreso, I wonder what she dreams at night? I was reading a case regarding the mom convicted of allowing her new husband to abuse (and kill) her daughter and she did an interview in which she stated that everytime she went to bed and dreamt it was like her baby was there with her and she would go to lift her up and then invariably wake up and realize that it was just a dream and her daughter is indeed gone. I think we've all had those dreams of lost loved ones in our lives....I'm wondering if Casey has the same or did her mind justify Caylee's death to the point that she doesn't even think about her?

evergreen
01-08-2009, 07:42 PM
I am sure KC's well aware of the likelihood she will, best case scenario, be fortunate to spend the next 70 years or the remainder of her life behind bars. I too watched her expression closely for signs of emotion, and I too concluded she looked medicated (sedated). So given this, along w/ sudden unexpected summons to appear in court, she was probably just trying to stay focused, comprehend proceedings (ie decipher arguments, or just understand the judge's decisions like I was trying to do!) and I'm not sure I'd have managed much better under the circumstances. I have to remind myself this is a 22 yr-old who prior to six mos. ago had never been in a courtroom much less institutionalized; and who has been in the jail's protective custody w no outside contact. She certainly did not appear the picture of "defiance," as some have suggested, nor of a coldblooded sociopath. To me it simply struck me as more the "deer in the headlights" expression--a little off guard as she takes in everything--which I'd honestly not seen since after her first (or 2nd?) arrest when initially held on bond. The girls' conduct was, needless to say, totally inappropriate. JMO

My guess is the "worst" case is 70 years, and best case might be just a few. Remember this is the jury system here and it's unpredictable.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 07:45 PM
I think it's both. Genetics and parenting that causes the worst personality disorders. I think with appropriate parenting (which depends on the child's behavior and problems) the genetic element can be minimized but not fully eliminated.

I think it's been proven that the most coddled, spoiled, children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. And on the other hand, I think it's been proven that even severly abused children can grow up to be good citizens or criminals. No rhyme or reason from a purely parenting stance, but when you add genetics to the mix, I think that's where the real bigger personality disorders occur.

Great post. I agree!

I remained a screw up until I decided I no longer wanted to be a screw up (granted there is never ending work involved in staying well) I don't care what mental illness you have or who raised you, if you are not insane you make the choices in your life and should be held accountable.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 07:50 PM
I guess Debs theory makes it easier to understand the mess KC has made of her life, I am eager to see if things actually play out in court as she described....I do believe it will..

If you go back and read from the 1st of these psych threads you will see that "deb's theory" isn't new. Though "it" is a great one, imo! :)

BuzzieCat
01-08-2009, 07:59 PM
She looks OK, imo. She is a pretty thing anyway. She seems to be ok, though not great.. she doesn't seem happy nor sad. I wonder what she thinks of before she goes to sleep at night?

If ya'll recall, I am of the opinion that she feels, but she can just shut it on and off.

This is pure supposition on my part, but I think she can feel but it's just not like most other people feel. She sure seems to have no trouble feeling anger. I think her other feelings are probably kind of shallow, like love or sadness. If something really exciting is not happening, she's just kind of *there*, IMO. I don't think she's capable of feeling horror at Caylee being gone. It's just not all that concerning to her. It can't be or she couldn't have partied for 31 days without giving any inkling to anyone that something was terribly wrong. And she sounded so calm when first questioned by LE.

bessie
01-08-2009, 08:14 PM
Great post. I agree!

I remained a screw up until I decided I no longer wanted to be a screw up (granted there is never ending work involved in staying well) I don't care what mental illness you have or who raised you, if you are not insane you make the choices in your life and should be held accountable.

Bravo!!! Life is all about choices. Congratulations to you, OLG, for making good ones. Hard work...yes. But well worth it.

kageykaren
01-08-2009, 08:19 PM
Since studies show the female psychopath is a rare breed (I prefer distancing myself by pretending as I have said that I'm Jane Goodall watching A's in the mist,) have any men on this board come up against a woman of this breed & have lived to tell about it? A mens perspective of KC with her list of personality disorders would be interesting. Male therapist and female to, find these female pts. exsperating to the point of wanting to be euthinised (sp) after 20 min of an intake evaluation. Remember the female psychopath talks and talks and talks until you are so confused .(which is there goal) Can you imagine dating one! We have read womens accounts of possibly jnowing somone with these traits but not from a male perspective. There are so many more studies pertaining to male psychopaths than female. Where is "Steely Dan", blogger?

Lavanda Dolce
01-08-2009, 08:33 PM
This is pure supposition on my part, but I think she can feel but it's just not like most other people feel. She sure seems to have no trouble feeling anger. I think her other feelings are probably kind of shallow, like love or sadness. If something really exciting is not happening, she's just kind of *there*, IMO. I don't think she's capable of feeling horror at Caylee being gone. It's just not all that concerning to her. It can't be or she couldn't have partied for 31 days without giving any inkling to anyone that something was terribly wrong. And she sounded so calm when first questioned by LE.


I could not believe in the original 911 call that Cindy made when Casey was with her and she brought up the fact that Caylee was missing...the operator asked Cindy to put Casey on the phone. You could hear in the background Cindy telling Casey "they want to talk to you" and Casey says "I'll never get to talk to them?".............at least that is what it sounds like she is saying. Casey sounds so calm and composed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UodiwWf7fHw

tiredofthis
01-08-2009, 09:44 PM
I could not believe in the original 911 call that Cindy made when Casey was with her and she brought up the fact that Caylee was missing...the operator asked Cindy to put Casey on the phone. You could hear in the background Cindy telling Casey "they want to talk to you" and Casey says "I'll never get to talk to them?".............at least that is what it sounds like she is saying. Casey sounds so calm and composed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UodiwWf7fHw

I thought she said "I don't want to talk to them." I could be wrong.

bookworm474
01-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Was Casey a sociopath before the age of 19?

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 10:13 PM
Since studies show the female psychopath is a rare breed (I prefer distancing myself by pretending as I have said that I'm Jane Goodall watching A's in the mist,) have any men on this board come up against a woman of this breed & have lived to tell about it? A mens perspective of KC with her list of personality disorders would be interesting. Male therapist and female to, find these female pts. exsperating to the point of wanting to be euthinised (sp) after 20 min of an intake evaluation. Remember the female psychopath talks and talks and talks until you are so confused .(which is there goal) Can you imagine dating one! We have read womens accounts of possibly jnowing somone with these traits but not from a male perspective. There are so many more studies pertaining to male psychopaths than female. Where is "Steely Dan", blogger?

Hell, my mother only has a dx of Borderline and she's been difficult enough to live with. I could not imagine loving a female psychopath. Again, though I personally do not think Casey's issues are as simple as a diagnosis of "Psychopath", it would be great if anyone wanted to share a personal story as I find them a great way to learn.

OneLostGrl
01-08-2009, 10:35 PM
Lavanda, glad you saw my post, must have missed your response, so sorry!

OneLostGirl, my mother admitted to smoking pot while pregnant WITH me, wonder what that did? lol, may be why my spelling is bad and i have absolutely NO attention span, haha!

kiki, i agree with you observations of kc during todays hearing. i watched the entire thing (and still somehow completed all my housecleaning, yipeee) and i agree with you and would like to add i noticed she laughed or smiled 2-3 times when others in court did the same. could this be her sociopathic tendency to mimic other's behaviors?

as a side note, i was inspired to google sociopaths and what causes them...there were many articles about new info emerging about brain anomalies/damage/or underdevelopment in **i believe** the pre-frontal cortex. many older studies from 1944 and 1968 had observed parental environments as the primary cause. I don't know how to link or i would.

reeseva, i agree with you so much - i think environmental concerns and all this bioengineering of produce/dosing of med's to animals in our food supply is going to be found to have a much larger impact than people imagined on development. i have even heard because of the foods we are eating that girls are undergoing puberty and starting their periods at younger and younger ages. interesting since our life expectancy is rising at the same time.

since we are talking about kc and the entire families psychological states, what are your thoughts on LEE?

Yeah, my mom tripped on acid and was on Benzo's for the first 6 months that she was pregnant with me. It really makes me wonder, ya know?

Anyway, Lee? Well, I think (did I say already that this is just what I think? :) ) Lee is the "good child", momma's boy who is ever faithful, comes running to be there for mom any time there is a problem. I think he keeps his eye on his father and Casey for his mom... and I think both Casey and George know it. When they sneak, they sneak around on Cindy AND Lee. I think Casey resents Lee (because he is the "good child", always being praised) and I think Lee resents Casey (because she is being taken care of by their mother in the family home, is not required to work, and when she creates drama & upsets mom it inturrupts his life to have to go running and take care of mom) but they pretend to adore one another.

Again, these are just MY thoughts on Lee.

Psmith
01-08-2009, 10:57 PM
Yeah, my mom tripped on acid and was on Benzo's for the first 6 months that she was pregnant with me. It really makes me wonder, ya know?

Anyway, Lee? Well, I think (did I say already that this is just what I think? :) ) Lee is the "good child", momma's boy who is ever faithful, comes running to be there for mom any time there is a problem. I think he keeps his eye on his father and Casey for his mom... and I think both Casey and George know it. When they sneak, they sneak around on Cindy AND Lee. I think Casey resents Lee (because he is the "good child", always being praised) and I think Lee resents Casey (because she is being taken care of by their mother in the family home, is not required to work, and when she creates drama & upsets mom it inturrupts his life to have to go running and take care of mom) but they pretend to adore one another.

Again, these are just MY thoughts on Lee.

I am sure they both have a love-hate with mom. Not only b/c psych of A house but in general b/c age group. KC, wittle giwlwie, in particular seen as spoiled. Oldest child will resent it, while seeming to go along with the plan of "baby girl," will compensate by becoming parental to a degree but also undermine by "little" betrayals.

2 cents. : )

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 12:26 AM
I am sure they both have a love-hate with mom. Not only b/c psych of A house but in general b/c age group. KC, wittle giwlwie, in particular seen as spoiled. Oldest child will resent it, while seeming to go along with the plan of "baby girl," will compensate by becoming parental to a degree but also undermine by "little" betrayals.

2 cents. : )

Good point. Though I know birth order isn't always an exact in deciding personality type, I hear the oldest (even in "normal" families) is usually the most responsible.

kiki the parrot
01-09-2009, 04:49 AM
My guess is the "worst" case is 70 years, and best case might be just a few. Remember this is the jury system here and it's unpredictable.

Yes but let's not forget she could technically serve 70 for the check fraud charges alone... And even if not convicted of premed or murder 1, she could easily do a couple lifetimes if you total up for aggravated manslaughter, felony child abuse, false statements... and possibly hindering, tampering, abuse of a corpse (have I left anything out..? Additional charges could still be brought I think, if defense at any point decides to try to plead down to an accident which would of course be an admission of all these other crimes.) Personally I don't believe KC would be a threat to herself if convicted. It surprises me but she seems to have adapted fairly well to structured life on the inside (probably first place in her life she's ever had rules or limits). Of course general pop might change that. JMO

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 07:17 AM
I thought she said "I don't want to talk to them." I could be wrong.

Yes, I believe there is a YOUTUBE video that also states what she is saying. I've listened to it over and again and can't quite make it out exactly as to what she is saying. I remember in the beginning at my forum a lot thought she said "what do they want to talk to me for?"....but for whatever reason I cannot find that original clip that sounded just like that. I really don't think the media would be altering her words, right? Because initially that is exactly what the tape sounded like she was saying. Here is the other Youtube link of the interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo7M-esOg-0

I swear she is saying "I'll never get to talk to them". What's everyone elses thoughts?

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 07:19 AM
Yeah, my mom tripped on acid and was on Benzo's for the first 6 months that she was pregnant with me. It really makes me wonder, ya know?

Anyway, Lee? Well, I think (did I say already that this is just what I think? :) ) Lee is the "good child", momma's boy who is ever faithful, comes running to be there for mom any time there is a problem. I think he keeps his eye on his father and Casey for his mom... and I think both Casey and George know it. When they sneak, they sneak around on Cindy AND Lee. I think Casey resents Lee (because he is the "good child", always being praised) and I think Lee resents Casey (because she is being taken care of by their mother in the family home, is not required to work, and when she creates drama & upsets mom it inturrupts his life to have to go running and take care of mom) but they pretend to adore one another.

Again, these are just MY thoughts on Lee.


I honestly haven't been able to figure Lee out. I keep flip flopping on thoughts. I do however agree with your post that he was the "good" child, however, that would also make me wonder if he was not given as much attention due to the tremendous stress on raising Casey?

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 07:20 AM
Yes but let's not forget she could technically serve 70 for the check fraud charges alone... And even if not convicted of premed or murder 1, she could easily do a couple lifetimes if you total up for aggravated manslaughter, felony child abuse, false statements... and possibly hindering, tampering, abuse of a corpse (have I left anything out..? Additional charges could still be brought I think, if defense at any point decides to try to plead down to an accident which would of course be an admission of all these other crimes.) Personally I don't believe KC would be a threat to herself if convicted. It surprises me but she seems to have adapted fairly well to structured life on the inside (probably first place in her life she's ever had rules or limits). Of course general pop might change that. JMO

According to the lawyer on satellite radio (CNN) yesterday, he said they doubt they will even pursue the check charges as the mandatory sentencing would be no more then 5 years.

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 07:26 AM
I believe this CLEARLY shows how easy Cindy is manipulated by Casey and has given in to her for FAR TOO LONG. Pay special attention to how she "almost agreed" to whatever was being stated between her and Casey while she was on the phone with 911 and how she (Cindy) caught her self being ready to give in and changed her mind. (See bold red)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AUDIO: First 911 call Cindy Anthony made that was received by Orlando Police Department dispatchers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator: Hello

Cindy Anthony: Hi, I drove to the police department here on Pershing but you guys are closed. I need to bring someone into the police department. Can you tell me where I can? the closest one I can come too.

Operator: What are you trying to accomplish by bringing them to the station?

Cindy Anthony: I have a 22-year-old person that has um grand theft sitting in my auto with me.

Operator: So the 22-year-old person stole something?

Cindy Anthony: Yes

Operator: Is this a relative?

Cindy Anthony: Yes

Operator: Where did they steal it from?

Cindy Anthony: Um, my car and also money

Operator: OK. Is this your son?

Cindy Anthony: Daughter

Operator: OK, so your daughter stole money from your car?

Cindy Anthony: No. My car was stolen. We've retrived it, today we found out where it was at. We've retrieved it, I've got that. And I've got affidavits from my banking account. I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.

Operator: Where, where did all of this happen?

Cindy Anthony: Oh, it's been happening.

Operator: I know, but I need to establish the jurisdiction is what I'm trying...

Cindy Anthony: Oh well I live in umm..in Orlando

Operator: Yup, but what address did these thefts occur at?

Cindy Anthony: Um, well I guess my residence.

Operator: That's actually going to be in the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office, ma'm, not the Orlando Police Department.

Cindy Anthony: Alrighty...

Operator: Let me transfer you over to the communication section for Orange County.

Cindy Anthony: Ok, now so...is the Orlando Sheriff's Department the one on 436? Is that open this afternoon or this evening?

Operator: Um, the substation you're at off Pershing,if it's Orlando Police...we're open primarily in the day, but that's not the sheriff's, thats the city police which does not have jurisdiction for your address.

Cindy Anthony: I know the sheriff's department on 5th, I mean on 436.

Operator: What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna transfer you to the sheriff's communications section and you can...determine that.

Cindy Anthony: OK.

{Dial tone}
{Phone dialing}
{Phone ringing}

Cindy Anthony: My next thing will be child's thing and we'll have a court order to get her if thats what you wanna play. We'll do it and you'll never...

{Casey inaudibly talking}

Cindy Anthony: Well then you have...no I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

Orange County Operator: Orange County Sheriff's Office

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 07:37 AM
Great post. I agree!

I remained a screw up until I decided I no longer wanted to be a screw up (granted there is never ending work involved in staying well) I don't care what mental illness you have or who raised you, if you are not insane you make the choices in your life and should be held accountable.


I agree, 100%. Regardless of whatever "conditions" or personality disorders that they may find on Casey, for example, she should be held accountable as she knew the difference between right from wrong. And as you stated...that's "across the board". Excellent post!
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/applause2.gif

BuzzieCat
01-09-2009, 09:17 AM
I am sure they both have a love-hate with mom. Not only b/c psych of A house but in general b/c age group. KC, wittle giwlwie, in particular seen as spoiled. Oldest child will resent it, while seeming to go along with the plan of "baby girl," will compensate by becoming parental to a degree but also undermine by "little" betrayals.
2 cents. : )

I think this is probably pretty accurate. I still can't understand, though, the high-five. At that point they seemed to be a team, yet at other times (jail phone calls) Lee seems to be trying to placate her and go along with whatever she says ("I don't trust the police") to try to get information out of her.

tiredofthis
01-09-2009, 09:38 AM
I think this is probably pretty accurate. I still can't understand, though, the high-five. At that point they seemed to be a team, yet at other times (jail phone calls) Lee seems to be trying to placate her and go along with whatever she says ("I don't trust the police") to try to get information out of her.

This has been mentioned before, but if you look at the moment of the high five, it was probably nothing more than the two of them congratulating each other for making it through the mob of reporters.

BuzzieCat
01-09-2009, 10:24 AM
This has been mentioned before, but if you look at the moment of the high five, it was probably nothing more than the two of them congratulating each other for making it through the mob of reporters.

I just meant I thought it seemed funny because they looked like they liked each other and got along, yet there must be tensions between them.

packerdog
01-09-2009, 11:41 AM
I have a question and I hope you great posters have an answer. Does a sociopath know that they are a sociopath?

Knot4u2no
01-09-2009, 03:31 PM
I have a question and I hope you great posters have an answer. Does a sociopath know that they are a sociopath?

Sociopaths are an exceptionally diverse group of individuals. Some do, some don't have a clue.

Russell

wishicouldhelp
01-09-2009, 04:04 PM
I do know that the community mental health treatment organizations here in the Denver Metro area will not open a person for services based solely on an Axis II diagnosis -- the person must have an Axis I diagnosis in order to qualify for community mental health treatment (by this, I mean treatment providers who work with Medicare/Medicaid and/or indigent populations). For what it's worth, by far the most common Axis II diagnosis I deal with as a PO is Borderline Personality Disorder. The law does not speak to the categorization of mental health disorders and mental illness, so, no, it's not in terms of the law. And perhaps this varies state to state, but Axis II diagnoses are not considered mental illness per se, at least not here in Colorado.

Would you happen to know if Cindy (yes, Cindy, Casey's mother) was seeing a therapist? She mentioned once that someone, ( a counselor? a social worker? don't remember who) told her she should start custody proceedings for Caylee since she was so worried about her welfare. Can anyone help me out on this information? TIA

reeseeva
01-09-2009, 04:17 PM
When I saw her first come into court yesterday, my first impression was she looked pale (jail cell aura) & then what hit me were her eyes. She looked older, not like the daughter/sister from the jail videos, but distinctly different. She has a look that is all-knowing, unflappable, & in control. I can't seem to quite explain what it is. It's a comfort level, as if she's done this 100 times, automatic. I don't understand how a girl her age has adapted to this situation, so totally unaffected, it boggles the mind. From the very beginning, she meekly went along, at first with her mother, & then the authorities. She never seems irate, unless provoked into making excuses & lies. She does seem to live, only in the moment. She reminds me of some elderly people that only react to what is in front of them.

Does anyone think that there is Really something wrong with her? Was she always this way, or did a switch flip somehow, someway??:waitasec:

Pink Panther
01-09-2009, 04:28 PM
Would you happen to know if Cindy (yes, Cindy, Casey's mother) was seeing a therapist? She mentioned once that someone, ( a counselor? a social worker? don't remember who) told her she should start custody proceedings for Caylee since she was so worried about her welfare. Can anyone help me out on this information? TIA
The only person who has ever mentioned this is her brother Rick who has posted on forums about the case and who provided information to Greta (anonimously - without appearing in person on the show.)

Rick wrote that CA had started seeing a counselor and had been working toward getting custody of Caylee.

MOO

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 04:40 PM
I think this is probably pretty accurate. I still can't understand, though, the high-five. At that point they seemed to be a team, yet at other times (jail phone calls) Lee seems to be trying to placate her and go along with whatever she says ("I don't trust the police") to try to get information out of her.

Growing up in a personality disordered home is like a friggin' war zone sometimes. Sometimes your siblings are all that "save you" from your parent so there are times even if the children dont "like" one another (adult or otherwise) that you band together. The kids learn their parents splitting abilities rather quickly.

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 04:44 PM
sociopaths are an exceptionally diverse group of individuals. Some do, some don't have a clue.

Russell

ita..

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 04:54 PM
When I saw her first come into court yesterday, my first impression was she looked pale (jail cell aura) & then what hit me were her eyes. She looked older, not like the daughter/sister from the jail videos, but distinctly different. She has a look that is all-knowing, unflappable, & in control. I can't seem to quite explain what it is. It's a comfort level, as if she's done this 100 times, automatic. I don't understand how a girl her age has adapted to this situation, so totally unaffected, it boggles the mind. From the very beginning, she meekly went along, at first with her mother, & then the authorities. She never seems irate, unless provoked into making excuses & lies. She does seem to live, only in the moment. She reminds me of some elderly people that only react to what is in front of them.

Does anyone think that there is Really something wrong with her? Was she always this way, or did a switch flip somehow, someway??:waitasec:

I totally expected her to adapt this well. Though she hasn't been to "jail" a 100 times it is my belief that she is very practiced at dealing with whatever is thrown at her from whoever, even those who claim to love her. Ya know, there comes a point after much emotional abuse and invalidation that a person can almost literally shut themselves off from feeling anything. You deal with what you have to to get through what is going on right NOW and that's it, you blank out and move on. This is not to say she isn't aware because she is. Completely.

Again this is MY belief.

txanmom
01-09-2009, 05:46 PM
I totally expected her to adapt this well. Though she hasn't been to "jail" a 100 times it is my belief that she is very practiced at dealing with whatever is thrown at her from whoever, even those who claim to love her. Ya know, there comes a point after much emotional abuse and invalidation that a person can almost literally shut themselves off from feeling anything. You deal with what you have to to get through what is going on right NOW and that's it, you blank out and move on. This is not to say she isn't aware because she is. Completely.

Again this is MY belief.


orr, she was born with this ability to assimilate and adapt to any situation, and was born without the ability to feel because of her brain chemistry.



naner, naner, naner!!!!! lol:crazy:just kidding with you lost girl! just havin fun because of this long debate. really i am just lightening the mood, y'all don't throw tomaters at me, as i look horrid in red!:crazy:

sharpar
01-09-2009, 05:49 PM
She has highly developed adaptive skills - it part of her survival mechanism

I love the thought a poster said Throw KC on a sofa and she becomes
a pillow in a harmonizing shade - its so true

Who can forget the paralegal look that showed up at the last presser
totally different than party girl - all outward transformations
based solely on a image she wants to project

They adapt to whatever is necessary to operate - there have been
more than one report that KC is a model prisioner -

She will be - being one will get her favors and consideration from
those in control around her

You and I would not be happy to be in jail - it doesnt bother her
in the same way

Her appearance is already changing - in a couple of years she
will look nothing like she did when arrested

They morph into whatever the situation calls for-

kiki the parrot
01-09-2009, 06:06 PM
I totally expected her to adapt this well. Though she hasn't been to "jail" a 100 times it is my belief that she is very practiced at dealing with whatever is thrown at her from whoever, even those who claim to love her. Ya know, there comes a point after much emotional abuse and invalidation that a person can almost literally shut themselves off from feeling anything. You deal with what you have to to get through what is going on right NOW and that's it, you blank out and move on. This is not to say she isn't aware because she is. Completely.

Again this is MY belief.

(bold mine) It is MY belief too! The psych observations I've made of KC and A family (CA) seem to fit most closely w everything I've read about narcissistic parenting, pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). This has no real treatment of which I'm aware, other than psychotherapy (in which few would participate but only likely manipulate); and nothing to support it having any basis in genetics. There is no history suggesting KC has a genetic disorder. And plenty to suggest a perfect storm instead for the creation of this adaptive, learned personality disorder. There is of course a wealth of studies, articles and research which explain these contributing factors in far greater detail, however a brief description follows: *[Disclaimer: This post is in response to One's and referring strictly to KC and the A family only as per the title, and topic, of this thread.] Thank you and have a nice day :) JMO

What Causes Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

The exact cause of narcissistic personality disorder is not known. However, many mental health professionals believe it results from extremes in child rearing. For example, the disorder might develop as the result of excessive pampering, or when a child's parents have a need for their children to be talented or special in order to maintain their own self-esteem. On the other end of the spectrum, narcissistic personality disorder can develop as the result of neglect or abuse and trauma inflicted by parents or other authority figures during childhood. The disorder usually is evident by early adulthood.

http://www.medicinenet.com/narcissistic_personality_disorder/article.htm

kageykaren
01-09-2009, 06:11 PM
After seeing KC in the courtroom and sleeping on my thoughts I feel Kc appeared to have an attitude of, "Whatever, I'm here, I'm guilty, so get on with the proceedings." I feel she has come to the conclusion that she will spend most of her years behind bars by watching that flat affect she displayed in court. This does not seem to look like the clinical flat affect you see in some pts. because she was able to smile and appear at times to be engaged. I feel her thoughts are, "Lets let this play out to the finish no matter what financial or emotional expense, because I'm going away for good when this is all over. It didn't appear that KC had any illusions of innocense in that courtroom yesterday.

kageykaren
01-09-2009, 06:14 PM
After seeing KC in the courtroom and sleeping on my thoughts I feel Kc appeared to have an attitude of, "Whatever, I'm here, I'm guilty, so get on with the proceedings." I feel she has come to the conclusion that she will spend most of her years behind bars by watching that flat affect she displayed in court. This does not seem to look like the clinical flat affect you see in some pts. because she was able to smile and appear at times to be engaged. I feel her thoughts are, "Lets let this play out to the finish no matter what financial or emotional expense, because I'm going away for good when this is all over. It didn't appear that KC had any illusions of innocense in that courtroom yesterday. She seemed to let the cast of characters play their roles with no innocent adlibing from KC

21merc7
01-09-2009, 06:16 PM
I totally expected her to adapt this well. Though she hasn't been to "jail" a 100 times it is my belief that she is very practiced at dealing with whatever is thrown at her from whoever, even those who claim to love her. Ya know, there comes a point after much emotional abuse and invalidation that a person can almost literally shut themselves off from feeling anything. You deal with what you have to to get through what is going on right NOW and that's it, you blank out and move on. This is not to say she isn't aware because she is. Completely.

Again this is MY belief.

Agreed. From a similar family. 3 children. Oldest like Casey, youngest struggling to support wife & 2 children, then me, middle 1 child didn't do so well there, but she loves me and is 24 married, and I will be a Grandmother. I lived, I made it this far, I moved away from "them", but I love them. Saw them for Christmas. All the therapy in world will not help, you love them, yet they put you down at every chance, and any violence allowed will be. Perp did the same, I think her blank eyes and lack of emotion to her are what she thinks is showing strength. As I said before, in another thread, in perp's mind, she is a heroine, she saved Caylee from the same fate she had.

Keep in mind, perp is still not in adult mind. No living on own, no raising child on own, just controlling mom who keeps her home so mom does not loose the reason she can live/control. Perp is a child, thinking all is well, she is now a Martyr, a Myth, she knew and partied up 'till D Day. Not taking her side, just another point of view for those whom have not lived it.

Could be perp is just a cold b**ch, but I think perp is just under the illlusion that life is bad, and controlled, abusive, so she should turn it on others. I did not knowingly, but did subconsciously for years. Not sure I still would not if I did not keep everyone beyond arms length.

Where is your depression thread One Lost? I have outed myself quite a bit today....:blowkiss:

21merc7
01-09-2009, 06:18 PM
I totally expected her to adapt this well. Though she hasn't been to "jail" a 100 times it is my belief that she is very practiced at dealing with whatever is thrown at her from whoever, even those who claim to love her. Ya know, there comes a point after much emotional abuse and invalidation that a person can almost literally shut themselves off from feeling anything. You deal with what you have to to get through what is going on right NOW and that's it, you blank out and move on. This is not to say she isn't aware because she is. Completely.

Again this is MY belief.

Agreed. From a similar family. 3 children. Oldest like Casey, youngest struggling to support wife & 2 children, then me, middle 1 child didn't do so well there, but she loves me and is 24 married, and I will be a Grandmother. I lived, I made it this far, I moved away from "them", but I love them. Saw them for Christmas. All the therapy in world will not help, you love them, yet they put you down at every chance, and any violence allowed will be. Perp did the same, I think her blank eyes and lack of emotion to her are what she thinks is showing strength. As I said before, in another thread, in perp's mind, she is a heroine, she saved Caylee from the same fate she had.

Keep in mind, perp is still not in adult mind. No living on own, no raising child on own, just controlling mom who keeps her home so mom does not loose the reason she can live/control. Perp is a child, thinking all is well, she is now a Martyr, a Myth, she knew and partied up 'till D Day. Not taking her side, just another point of view for those whom have not lived it.

Could be perp is just a cold b**ch, but I think perp is just under the illlusion that life is bad, and controlled, abusive, so she should turn it on others. I did not knowingly, but did subconsciously for years. Not sure I still would not if I did not keep everyone beyond arms length.

Where is your depression thread One Lost? I have outed myself quite a bit today....:blowkiss:

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 06:33 PM
Personally I don't believe KC would be a threat to herself if convicted. It surprises me but she seems to have adapted fairly well to structured life on the inside (probably first place in her life she's ever had rules or limits). Of course general pop might change that. JMO

I do not believe she would harm herself either. I do, however, believe she will be the biggest whiner anyone has ever seen once she is in general population.

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 06:34 PM
orr, she was born with this ability to assimilate and adapt to any situation, and was born without the ability to feel because of her brain chemistry.



naner, naner, naner!!!!! lol:crazy:just kidding with you lost girl! just havin fun because of this long debate. really i am just lightening the mood, y'all don't throw tomaters at me, as i look horrid in red!:crazy:

:blowkiss:

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 06:38 PM
When I saw her first come into court yesterday, my first impression was she looked pale (jail cell aura) & then what hit me were her eyes. She looked older, not like the daughter/sister from the jail videos, but distinctly different. She has a look that is all-knowing, unflappable, & in control. I can't seem to quite explain what it is. It's a comfort level, as if she's done this 100 times, automatic. I don't understand how a girl her age has adapted to this situation, so totally unaffected, it boggles the mind. From the very beginning, she meekly went along, at first with her mother, & then the authorities. She never seems irate, unless provoked into making excuses & lies. She does seem to live, only in the moment. She reminds me of some elderly people that only react to what is in front of them.

Does anyone think that there is Really something wrong with her? Was she always this way, or did a switch flip somehow, someway??:waitasec:

I'm going to say this honestly and it's way off the wall and I know it's more than probably no way...but don't ask me why but the very moment I viewed the video and they walked her into the courtroom I had an immediate thought that she was pregnant. Again, don't ask me why. No rhyme nor reason and certainly not wanting to start a rumor amuck. Just stating what thought went through my mind and I have no idea or clue as to why. There are times I do have very clear "psychic" happenings, but by no means do I claim to be such. Just confessing my first image and thoughts upon seeing the video.

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 06:39 PM
I'm headed to the mall (Friday night, I gotta teenager who has a hot date LOL) but will be back later, ya'll! I never go away for long! :P

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 06:41 PM
I just meant I thought it seemed funny because they looked like they liked each other and got along, yet there must be tensions between them.

I'm not so sure? In viewing thus far, I would have to say I have a feeling they are pretty close. I don't really "feel" there is a lot of jealousy or anger issues between them. I believe that Lee never really was gushed over so that did not make Casey feel too threatened and I believe that Lee is probably the more supportive person to give Casey unbiased opinions...whereas I believe her parents are always being manipulated by her and giving in. I could be wrong, but this is how I view their relationship. Maybe Lee in essence is most closest to Casey moreso than George, her father. It could also be because of the closeness of their ages.

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 06:52 PM
After seeing KC in the courtroom and sleeping on my thoughts I feel Kc appeared to have an attitude of, "Whatever, I'm here, I'm guilty, so get on with the proceedings." I feel she has come to the conclusion that she will spend most of her years behind bars by watching that flat affect she displayed in court. This does not seem to look like the clinical flat affect you see in some pts. because she was able to smile and appear at times to be engaged. I feel her thoughts are, "Lets let this play out to the finish no matter what financial or emotional expense, because I'm going away for good when this is all over. It didn't appear that KC had any illusions of innocense in that courtroom yesterday.


I did not get that impression. Not at all. I don't believe she admits to herself of her guilt and I believe she has justified it so much to herself that she is merely going to go through the motions to appease others in doing what is "expected".

debs
01-09-2009, 07:01 PM
I do not believe she would harm herself either. I do, however, believe she will be the biggest whiner anyone has ever seen once she is in general population.

She, like her mother, will definitely call upon the guards (or LE like Cindy did in front of the protesters) whenever she feels she is being threatened, mocked, attacked unfairly, unduly regarded, etc etc. Casey will definitely find out that doesn't work very well.

I cannot remember where the list is of all the 911 calls that the Anthony's made since Casey's first return home after being bailed out the first time, but I know it exists on this board.

As for her demeanor in court, she has mastered the look of "you want to yell at me and tell me what I did wrong, okay." Only when she wasn't arrested, she usually lived to see another day to do it again. I truly marvel at her confidence in Jose to be successful in defending her in this trial. It's almost as though she's replaced her parents in this one person who will do whatever he has to in order to get her out of trouble "one more time."

reeseeva
01-09-2009, 08:08 PM
This is driving me crazy, but at the end of yesterday's hearing, when she stands & leans into JB, & he whispers what he has to say, her affect reminds me of someone at a Hollywood Oscar presentation who has just been told what a wonderful contribution they have made!:furious::furious:.... Her mannerisms were entirely different from what I had observed in the jail videos. She is exhibiting a "Celebrity Status" & gloating in those few small seconds. I have Tivo & it's unbelievable in slow motion. And equally shocking is when she turns & walks out of the courtroom, I was entranced at how JB lingeringly watches her from behind!! Ok maybe this should be on the Rant thread, but I had to convey this once & for all!:twocents::twocents: I am feeling, & I hope I'm wrong, that there is some Surety, somewhere, some glitch that this girl will be set free.

Lavanda Dolce
01-09-2009, 09:00 PM
This is driving me crazy, but at the end of yesterday's hearing, when she stands & leans into JB, & he whispers what he has to say, her affect reminds me of someone at a Hollywood Oscar presentation who has just been told what a wonderful contribution they have made!:furious::furious:.... Her mannerisms were entirely different from what I had observed in the jail videos. She is exhibiting a "Celebrity Status" & gloating in those few small seconds. I have Tivo & it's unbelievable in slow motion. And equally shocking is when she turns & walks out of the courtroom, I was entranced at how JB lingeringly watches her from behind!! Ok maybe this should be on the Rant thread, but I had to convey this once & for all!:twocents::twocents: I am feeling, & I hope I'm wrong, that there is some Surety, somewhere, some glitch that this girl will be set free.

I honestly do not think she will get away with this..and I also see now they are leaning towards the fact that this was premeditated and she purposely murdered Caylee. It's all over NG right now. I've always felt this was not an accident. Just too much circumstantial evidence and her actions to show otherwise. If this is the case, my guess is the death penalty will be back on the table.

Black Magic Woman
01-09-2009, 09:51 PM
This is driving me crazy, but at the end of yesterday's hearing, when she stands & leans into JB, & he whispers what he has to say, her affect reminds me of someone at a Hollywood Oscar presentation who has just been told what a wonderful contribution they have made!:furious::furious:.... Her mannerisms were entirely different from what I had observed in the jail videos. She is exhibiting a "Celebrity Status" & gloating in those few small seconds. I have Tivo & it's unbelievable in slow motion. And equally shocking is when she turns & walks out of the courtroom, I was entranced at how JB lingeringly watches her from behind!! Ok maybe this should be on the Rant thread, but I had to convey this once & for all!:twocents::twocents: I am feeling, & I hope I'm wrong, that there is some Surety, somewhere, some glitch that this girl will be set free.Oh lord, I know exactly what you mean but please don't say that.

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 10:14 PM
(bold mine) It is MY belief too! The psych observations I've made of KC and A family (CA) seem to fit most closely w everything I've read about narcissistic parenting, pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). This has no real treatment of which I'm aware, other than psychotherapy (in which few would participate but only likely manipulate); and nothing to support it having any basis in genetics. There is no history suggesting KC has a genetic disorder. And plenty to suggest a perfect storm instead for the creation of this adaptive, learned personality disorder. There is of course a wealth of studies, articles and research which explain these contributing factors in far greater detail, however a brief description follows: *[Disclaimer: This post is in response to One's and referring strictly to KC and the A family only as per the title, and topic, of this thread.] Thank you and have a nice day :) JMO

What Causes Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

The exact cause of narcissistic personality disorder is not known. However, many mental health professionals believe it results from extremes in child rearing. For example, the disorder might develop as the result of excessive pampering, or when a child's parents have a need for their children to be talented or special in order to maintain their own self-esteem. On the other end of the spectrum, narcissistic personality disorder can develop as the result of neglect or abuse and trauma inflicted by parents or other authority figures during childhood. The disorder usually is evident by early adulthood.

http://www.medicinenet.com/narcissistic_personality_disorder/article.htm

^ Look, *twirling around* ya like my new Avatar? ;)

icherish
01-09-2009, 10:21 PM
(bold mine) It is MY belief too! The psych observations I've made of KC and A family (CA) seem to fit most closely w everything I've read about narcissistic parenting, pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). This has no real treatment of which I'm aware, other than psychotherapy (in which few would participate but only likely manipulate); and nothing to support it having any basis in genetics. There is no history suggesting KC has a genetic disorder. And plenty to suggest a perfect storm instead for the creation of this adaptive, learned personality disorder. There is of course a wealth of studies, articles and research which explain these contributing factors in far greater detail, however a brief description follows: *[Disclaimer: This post is in response to One's and referring strictly to KC and the A family only as per the title, and topic, of this thread.] Thank you and have a nice day :) JMO

What Causes Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

The exact cause of narcissistic personality disorder is not known. However, many mental health professionals believe it results from extremes in child rearing. For example, the disorder might develop as the result of excessive pampering, or when a child's parents have a need for their children to be talented or special in order to maintain their own self-esteem. On the other end of the spectrum, narcissistic personality disorder can develop as the result of neglect or abuse and trauma inflicted by parents or other authority figures during childhood. The disorder usually is evident by early adulthood.

http://www.medicinenet.com/narcissistic_personality_disorder/article.htm

Responding to part I bolded:
This is incorrect. George has a sister who apparently has a long history of mental/behavioral issues. He stated as much in one of his interviews with LE, and even expressed his concern regarding the possibility that it had been passed on to his daughter genetically.


Fwiw, I think Casey's pattern of deviant behaviors go way beyond being narcissistic, way beyond being the product of even the worst kind of parenting. She destroyed her child, threw her dead body in the trunk, went to Blockbuster,and snuggled up with her lover in front of a movie. For her to be able to do that, there is something profoundly missing. MOO

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 10:42 PM
She, like her mother, will definitely call upon the guards (or LE like Cindy did in front of the protesters) whenever she feels she is being threatened, mocked, attacked unfairly, unduly regarded, etc etc. Casey will definitely find out that doesn't work very well.

I cannot remember where the list is of all the 911 calls that the Anthony's made since Casey's first return home after being bailed out the first time, but I know it exists on this board.

As for her demeanor in court, she has mastered the look of "you want to yell at me and tell me what I did wrong, okay." Only when she wasn't arrested, she usually lived to see another day to do it again. I truly marvel at her confidence in Jose to be successful in defending her in this trial. It's almost as though she's replaced her parents in this one person who will do whatever he has to in order to get her out of trouble "one more time."

Absolutely- I think you are spot on!! Who the hell else is there to turn to? She may not be "book smart" as people here like to call it but that girl knows how to pick her a sucker, a fool! Little does she know that other people have the same gift. cuz Jose has got him a live one!!

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Responding to part I bolded:
This is incorrect. George has a sister who apparently has a long history of mental/behavioral issues. He stated as much in one of his interviews with LE, and even expressed his concern regarding the possibility that it had been passed on to his daughter genetically.


Fwiw, I think Casey's pattern of deviant behaviors go way beyond being narcissistic, way beyond being the product of even the worst kind of parenting. She destroyed her child, threw her dead body in the trunk, went to Blockbuster,and snuggled up with her lover in front of a movie. For her to be able to do that, there is something profoundly missing. MOO

I agree with you on both items. George's sister apparently does has a history of Bipolar, I think that info was on the tapes per George and in the emails from Cindy's mom.

I too believe that Casey's issues run far deeper than narcissism. I don't believe the dx of Psychopath comes close to covering her issues either. Cindy on the other hand.... and it's sad because she could get help- DBT really helps.

Anyway. oh yeah IMO

reeseeva
01-09-2009, 11:00 PM
Love your new Look?? You are certainly creative OneLostGirl :woohoo::woohoo:

"Imagine the things I don't say" :clap: haha! "I'm not waving, I'm drowning":cool:



"On the corner of 33 & utter hell" :woohoo:

And the best........Lost but I'm on my way............:star:

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Love your new Look?? You are certainly creative OneLostGirl :woohoo::woohoo:

"Imagine the things I don't say" :clap: haha! "I'm not waving, I'm drowning":cool:



"On the corner of 33 & utter hell" :woohoo:

And the best........Lost but I'm on my way............:star:

Your pups are so beautiful.

kiki the parrot
01-09-2009, 11:50 PM
Responding to part I bolded:
This is incorrect. George has a sister who apparently has a long history of mental/behavioral issues. He stated as much in one of his interviews with LE, and even expressed his concern regarding the possibility that it had been passed on to his daughter genetically.


Fwiw, I think Casey's pattern of deviant behaviors go way beyond being narcissistic, way beyond being the product of even the worst kind of parenting. She destroyed her child, threw her dead body in the trunk, went to Blockbuster,and snuggled up with her lover in front of a movie. For her to be able to do that, there is something profoundly missing. MOO

We don't know that there is any such hereditary cause to which KC's behavior can be attributed--nor do we know that KC deliberately destroyed her child. And were it a death resulting from her self-absorption and poor supervision, this would certainly be in keeping w the narcissistic personality. As to whether there's any other co-existing disorder, I couldn't say, but I was referring to NPD as I'm sadly only too familiar w this and have no trouble recognizing it. As for today's "news" there was nothing whatsoever "new" discovered, and nothing further learned about the cause of death from as it fails even to establish whether duct tape was used antemortem or postmortem. So it still can not be ruled out eg that it may have been used postmortem as late as the 18th in staging the kidnapping, a cover-up plan foiled by floods; nor ruled out that any of this took place following a negligent homicide. It still tells us nothing about the cause, or malice and intent. IMO these "developments" amount to no more than a strategy by the State to turn up the heat and get KC to reveal to them what actually did happen that day. Because until trial all we can really be certain of is that KC attempted--in the aftermath of whatever occurred--to sweep away the broken, decaying pieces of what was once her daughter under the rug. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 11:51 PM
After seeing KC in the courtroom and sleeping on my thoughts I feel Kc appeared to have an attitude of, "Whatever, I'm here, I'm guilty, so get on with the proceedings." I feel she has come to the conclusion that she will spend most of her years behind bars by watching that flat affect she displayed in court. This does not seem to look like the clinical flat affect you see in some pts. because she was able to smile and appear at times to be engaged. I feel her thoughts are, "Lets let this play out to the finish no matter what financial or emotional expense, because I'm going away for good when this is all over. It didn't appear that KC had any illusions of innocense in that courtroom yesterday.

I didn't quite get the same feel. I just really didn't feel she was there. She smiled for the judge, lifted her hand and said the things that were required and then she sat and waited until it was time to go. She is able to hide a lot, that one. But I think she literally thought of nothing but- "holding her hand up, swearing in front of the judge, saying her name, smiling pretty for the judge and getting the f^ck outta there" and back to her cell. Her new home, her new brand of hell, eer, heaven.. well, ya know, living.

mo

OneLostGrl
01-09-2009, 11:55 PM
We don't know that there is any such hereditary cause to which KC's behavior can be attributed--nor do we know that KC deliberately destroyed her child. And were it a death resulting from her self-absorption and poor supervision, this would certainly be in keeping w the narcissistic personality. As to whether there's any other co-existing disorder, I couldn't say, but I was referring to NPD as I'm sadly only too familiar w this and have no trouble recognizing it. As for today's "news" there was nothing whatsoever "new" discovered, and nothing further learned about the cause of death from as it fails even to establish whether duct tape was used antemortem or postmortem. So it still can not be ruled out eg that it may have been used postmortem as late as the 18th in staging the kidnapping, a cover-up plan foiled by floods; nor ruled out that any of this took place following a negligent homicide. It still tells us nothing about the cause, or malice and intent. IMO these "developments" amount to no more than a strategy by the State to turn up the heat and get KC to reveal to them what actually did happen that day. Because until trial all we can really be certain of is that KC attempted--in the aftermath of whatever occurred--to sweep away the broken, decaying pieces of what was once her daughter under the rug. JMO

well, there is that too. Casey has not been convicted of anything yet. Plus I agree about the Bipolar, naw.

CourtsInSession
01-10-2009, 12:47 AM
I know this doesn't belong here, but I had to share it with somebody. It broke my heart. I hope some day Casey realizes how many hearts she has broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIU_IbpBxEw

CourtsInSession
01-10-2009, 02:47 AM
Dear Sleuthers--

I have been reading all your posts and have contributed a few of my own that refer to my dealings with my late husband's ex-wife and her now 12-year old daughter.

Based on experiences in my own life, I believe that Casey became what she is today as a result of the way she was raised. And THE MAJOR contributing factor is her mother, Cindy.

My husband use to refer to his ex-wife's behavior as a "curse." When I questioned him further, he explained that in his way of understanding (he was Native American), it was like a "curse" passed down through generations-- and this was literally true in his ex-wife's family. His ex-wife's mother treated her just like she treats her own daughter-- overly affectionate, love-dovey and coddling her one moment; the next moment, screaming and cursing at her, telling her she's stupid and worthless.

For years, we watched the ex-wife treat the daughter this way-- and my husband (just like George Anthony) did what he could to diffuse each blow-up and to protect his daughter as best as he could. But, my husband would never stand up to her because he was always afraid that if he was too critical of the way his ex-wife treated his daughter, she would hurt the daughter in some way or deprive him access to her.

On some level, the ex-wife knew that she was "damaging" her child with her behavior, but her "sickness", anger, and attachment to her daughter was such that she would not let my husband and I raise her. On many, many occasions, she would call my husband up and tell him about the arguments they had-- and cry to him that she knew she was hurting her daughter, but the next day she and the daughter would be back to being "best friends" -- usually following a trip to the mall where she would buy the daughter a toy or an outfit to make up for what she did. Only people she liked were allowed to talk to her daughter -- everyone else was ignored. And this woman has been in therapy for many years!

My husband passed away last May, and now, as my step-daughter grows older, I see many of her mother's characteristics and behaviors in her own behaviors and actions. And I am very scared for what the future holds for her.

It is very hard to watch this dynamic occurring in a family-- it's like a seeing two trains approaching each other at high speeds on the same track and not being able to do anything to stop the crash other than to cringe in anticipation. If Cindy is anything like my stepdaughter's mother-- no one wants to get in her path because they will be attacked (verbally, emotionally, and even physically). And, Cindy was probably quite pleased when Caylee would not do what Casey wanted-- my stepdaughter's grandmother used to get a kick out of it when her granddaughter treated her daughter the way her daughter used to treat her. It's just so sick!

Of course, each family dynamic is different. And no two individuals will act in exactly the same way. I am sure that Cindy knows, deep down, that she has contributed in a big way to making her daughter what she is today. But I don't believe she ever thought Casey would go to the extreme of killing Caylee.

I agree 100%. Children are the product of their environment and live what they learn.

Brini
01-10-2009, 07:56 AM
I do not believe she would harm herself either. I do, however, believe she will be the biggest whiner anyone has ever seen once she is in general population.

I think she will turn on the charm, in the general pop. Model prisoner. Best friend to all the inmates. Chameleon.

Brini
01-10-2009, 07:56 AM
I agree 100%. Children are the product of their environment and live what they learn.

Except when heredity factors in. That's the other theory of causality.

Brini
01-10-2009, 07:58 AM
I'm going to say this honestly and it's way off the wall and I know it's more than probably no way...but don't ask me why but the very moment I viewed the video and they walked her into the courtroom I had an immediate thought that she was pregnant. Again, don't ask me why. No rhyme nor reason and certainly not wanting to start a rumor amuck. Just stating what thought went through my mind and I have no idea or clue as to why. There are times I do have very clear "psychic" happenings, but by no means do I claim to be such. Just confessing my first image and thoughts upon seeing the video.

I read that she was tested for pregnancy, when she was incarcerated. And, she wasn't.

Brini
01-10-2009, 08:02 AM
^ Look, *twirling around* ya like my new Avatar? ;)

LOVE it!:blowkiss:

Brini
01-10-2009, 08:05 AM
Was Casey a sociopath before the age of 19?

Sociopathy manifests in chlldhood. I wonder whether she killed any of the pets she buried, in that little area?

Brini
01-10-2009, 08:09 AM
I have a question and I hope you great posters have an answer. Does a sociopath know that they are a sociopath?

Some do. Some deny. Many just know that they are "different." Some are glad that they can't feel guilt or regret.

Brini
01-10-2009, 08:35 AM
Would you happen to know if Cindy (yes, Cindy, Casey's mother) was seeing a therapist? She mentioned once that someone, ( a counselor? a social worker? don't remember who) told her she should start custody proceedings for Caylee since she was so worried about her welfare. Can anyone help me out on this information? TIA

Yes, the therapist told CA to start custody proceedings, and throw KC out of the house. Tell her to get a job, and grow up.

Brini
01-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Lavanda, glad you saw my post, must have missed your response, so sorry!

OneLostGirl, my mother admitted to smoking pot while pregnant WITH me, wonder what that did? lol, may be why my spelling is bad and i have absolutely NO attention span, haha!

kiki, i agree with you observations of kc during todays hearing. i watched the entire thing (and still somehow completed all my housecleaning, yipeee) and i agree with you and would like to add i noticed she laughed or smiled 2-3 times when others in court did the same. could this be her sociopathic tendency to mimic other's behaviors?

as a side note, i was inspired to google sociopaths and what causes them...there were many articles about new info emerging about brain anomalies/damage/or underdevelopment in **i believe** the pre-frontal cortex. many older studies from 1944 and 1968 had observed parental environments as the primary cause. I don't know how to link or i would.

reeseva, i agree with you so much - i think environmental concerns and all this bioengineering of produce/dosing of med's to animals in our food supply is going to be found to have a much larger impact than people imagined on development. i have even heard because of the foods we are eating that girls are undergoing puberty and starting their periods at younger and younger ages. interesting since our life expectancy is rising at the same time.

since we are talking about kc and the entire families psychological states, what are your thoughts on LEE?

Yes, the pre-frontal cortex. Something about anomalous "mirror neurons," too.

icherish
01-10-2009, 09:13 AM
I agree with you on both items. George's sister apparently does has a history of Bipolar, I think that info was on the tapes per George and in the emails from Cindy's mom.

I too believe that Casey's issues run far deeper than narcissism. I don't believe the dx of Psychopath comes close to covering her issues either. Cindy on the other hand.... and it's sad because she could get help- DBT really helps.
Anyway. oh yeah IMO

I agree- she is one for the books.

What is DBT?

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 09:48 AM
As for today's "news" there was nothing whatsoever "new" discovered, and nothing further learned about the cause of death from as it fails even to establish whether duct tape was used antemortem or postmortem. So it still can not be ruled out eg that it may have been used postmortem as late as the 18th in staging the kidnapping, a cover-up plan foiled by floods; nor ruled out that any of this took place following a negligent homicide. It still tells us nothing about the cause, or malice and intent. IMO these "developments" amount to no more than a strategy by the State to turn up the heat and get KC to reveal to them what actually did happen that day. Because until trial all we can really be certain of is that KC attempted--in the aftermath of whatever occurred--to sweep away the broken, decaying pieces of what was once her daughter under the rug. JMO



I believe the developments that were reported were due in part to the timeline of her death by the forensic experts who analyzed the plant growth, bugs, etc. That report is what has concluded as to the timeline of the 18th...along with cell phone pings, etc. I am also pretty sure the prosecutors and investigators have more information that has not been shared with the media that enabled them to bring about this development and determination of the purposeful murder of Caylee. I for one have never believed it was an accident. Just too much circumstantial evidence and abnormal behaviors on part of Casey during the 30-days following Caylee's "disappearance" to believe an accident occured and was covered. I believe the reports that Casey indeed premeditated, planned and executed the murder of Caylee with full knowledge of what she was doing.

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 09:52 AM
I know this doesn't belong here, but I had to share it with somebody. It broke my heart. I hope some day Casey realizes how many hearts she has broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIU_IbpBxEw

Wow. That was truly sad. Too bad humans can't be as "in tune" to the world as that doggy surely is.

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 09:53 AM
I read that she was tested for pregnancy, when she was incarcerated. And, she wasn't.

It was stated she has gained weight due to her snacking and boredom. Thank the good Lord that's the reason!

icherish
01-10-2009, 09:55 AM
We don't know that there is any such hereditary cause to which KC's behavior can be attributed--nor do we know that KC deliberately destroyed her child. And were it a death resulting from her self-absorption and poor supervision, this would certainly be in keeping w the narcissistic personality. As to whether there's any other co-existing disorder, I couldn't say, but I was referring to NPD as I'm sadly only too familiar w this and have no trouble recognizing it. As for today's "news" there was nothing whatsoever "new" discovered, and nothing further learned about the cause of death from as it fails even to establish whether duct tape was used antemortem or postmortem. So it still can not be ruled out eg that it may have been used postmortem as late as the 18th in staging the kidnapping, a cover-up plan foiled by floods; nor ruled out that any of this took place following a negligent homicide. It still tells us nothing about the cause, or malice and intent. IMO these "developments" amount to no more than a strategy by the State to turn up the heat and get KC to reveal to them what actually did happen that day. Because until trial all we can really be certain of is that KC attempted--in the aftermath of whatever occurred--to sweep away the broken, decaying pieces of what was once her daughter under the rug. JMO

True, we don't know for certain. But we don't know that there *isn't a hereditary or genetic cause to which it can be attributed, either. What we do know along those lines is that there is a family history that supports it is possible.

On that note, there are a lot of things we don't "know" in this case. You don't "know" that Cindy is a narcissist, you have merely formed the opinion that she is. That's fine... we form opinions based on our personal observations, as well as speculative information and the facts as we understand them.

I simply stated the fact that there is indeed a family history of psych problems...and I do think it's an important fact as it pertains to this discussion.

icherish
01-10-2009, 10:18 AM
I read that she was tested for pregnancy, when she was incarcerated. And, she wasn't.

Thank goodness for that.

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 10:27 AM
Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing? Here is the video in reference:
Move the clip to 8:00
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206395/index.html

2) in the clip around 5:00 George talks about how he believes Caylee is closeby and every night he prays...at this point Casey completely looks extremely under duress and "breaks down in her own quiet way"...I get the impression that she is thinking how sad she feels for her dad because she knows Caylee is not alive. Do you get the same impression? I wish the focus would have continued on how they are suffering without Caylee...because I've a feeling she could have been broke down. But George then switches to Casey and what he is doing to help her...and Casey completely comes out of the "near breakdown" into a different mental mode....Boy I wish they would have kept going on about Caylee and all the stuff she did and what they missed. I think that could have broken Casey...which then says to me ...there just could be a bit of guilt in her after all?

3) Also, in the same video, around the 6:00 time point...regarding the family dynamics, George mentions how they never really listened to Casey and how they will from now on change and how maybe they were too domineering in raising Casey.

4) George CLEARLY to me, is in total denial. Casey just feeds right along into him regarding the event for the other missing children. I mean he REALLY believes that Caylee will come home, Casey will come out and then she (CASEY) could help work for the missing children organization! (go to 10:21)....and Casey states to him (about working for missing children organizations)...."Oh absolutely."....she is really feeding him what he wants to hear. I guess somewhere in me I felt George knew all along...but just listening to him he sounds too darn sincere and that he IS IN FACT in denial. What are your thoughts?

5) Further along the denial..(see 11:58)....he talks about "how they can all go into protective custody." I truly believe that Cindy and George really thought that Casey got involved into something very bad and that Casey was trying to protect them. I think this really shows how much in denial George himself was in...perhaps a protective measure to protect his own deep knowledge of knowing the truth that no way could Caylee be alive?

6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?

kiki the parrot
01-10-2009, 12:36 PM
True, we don't know for certain. But we don't know that there *isn't a hereditary or genetic cause to which it can be attributed, either. What we do know along those lines is that there is a family history that supports it is possible.

On that note, there are a lot of things we don't "know" in this case. You don't "know" that Cindy is a narcissist, you have merely formed the opinion that she is. That's fine... we form opinions based on our personal observations, as well as speculative information and the facts as we understand them.

I simply stated the fact that there is indeed a family history of psych problems...and I do think it's an important fact as it pertains to this discussion.

To date we have nothing (other than GA's suggestion) to substantiate the "fact" that there is "indeed" any such diagnosed history of genetic disorder anywhere in the A family--much less in KC herself. He has a daughter charged w premeditated murder of his granddaughter. What seems far more likely under the circumstances would be GA's willingness to attribute the obvious A family dysfunction to some "genetic" origins. Because what we are left to explain, in it's absence, is the humiliating exposure of this family's gross and obvious dysfunction... a horrific family skeleton, and the unhealthy patterns and horrendous observable behavior consistent w either classic textbook NPD (and/or other PD). Hmmmm, anybody else around here ever noticed how parents are so quick to excuse their family dysfunction or childrens' behavior by placing blame of course anywhere other than their parenting or childrearing...? JMO

:waitasec:

BuzzieCat
01-10-2009, 12:52 PM
I don't know why there couldn't be at least some physical contribution to being someone like Casey. I think it just depends. Perhaps in some cases it is caused more by the parenting and other times perhaps some physical cause. It wouldn't necessarily have to be genetic, would it? It could just be a physical mutation that happened when no one else in the family has it.

The brain is a physical thing. It can have stuff missing or wrong with it just as any other body part could. It may be that there can be things missing, mirror neuron problems or whatever, that aren't testable with current technology. I don't know anything, but the brain is physical and I don't see why there couldn't be a physical absence that would lead to a lack of conscience just as a baby could be born with a deformed heart valve or anything else.

As far as George being in denial...perhaps so. But I think maybe he has some mental problems, JMO. If he really got involved in some kind of Nigerian scam and pushed his father through a window and, with full knowledge of Casey's history of lying and having smelled her trunk, he really thought ZFG did it...he's confused. IMO.

ETA: I do not mean in any way that Casey shouldn't pay for what (I believe) she did on the basis of having a physical cause for what she is missing.

sharpar
01-10-2009, 01:25 PM
Robert Hare who is the leading expert on psychopaths - says there are studies which
show their brains are in fact different . The big question is are they different from birth or do they develop that way from the misuse by the wingnut ?

I personally feel that wingnuts are made - incubated by nurture . The defense mechanisms are built by the Cluster B's as a toddler . Its not that they have a pd
it is they are a pd . It dictates every aspect of their lives .

The lowest common trait is lying the most destructive is Lack of empathy.
If we as a society were going to try and tackle the problem - there would clear
concise instruction for parents on instilling empathy . It has to developed
at 3-5 years old . Kindergarten would be focusing on activities to instill it
re enforce it and help it take hold.
People without empathy turn into predators and the results arent pretty

eddeva
01-10-2009, 01:52 PM
Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing?

could he be talking about the time he threw his father through the glass door?


6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?

i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 02:15 PM
I don't know why there couldn't be at least some physical contribution to being someone like Casey. I think it just depends. Perhaps in some cases it is caused more by the parenting and other times perhaps some physical cause. It wouldn't necessarily have to be genetic, would it? It could just be a physical mutation that happened when no one else in the family has it.

The brain is a physical thing. It can have stuff missing or wrong with it just as any other body part could. It may be that there can be things missing, mirror neuron problems or whatever, that aren't testable with current technology. I don't know anything, but the brain is physical and I don't see why there couldn't be a physical absence that would lead to a lack of conscience just as a baby could be born with a deformed heart valve or anything else.

As far as George being in denial...perhaps so. But I think maybe he has some mental problems, JMO. If he really got involved in some kind of Nigerian scam and pushed his father through a window and, with full knowledge of Casey's history of lying and having smelled her trunk, he really thought ZFG did it...he's confused. IMO.

ETA: I do not mean in any way that Casey shouldn't pay for what (I believe) she did on the basis of having a physical cause for what she is missing.

Yes, Buzziecat...I do agree with your thought processes. I too find it very difficult to believe that most all personality disorders are merely due to ones upbringing. Given in light that many children are raised by the same parents, under the same roof and usually in the same manner...and some come out well and others may not...that I have to attribute a lot of personality disorders as a combination of factors which include: Genetic, environmental, upbringing, life experiences and also brain chemistry and/or brain anomalies...some of which medical science has yet to discover or pinpoint exactly what may cause certain behaviors such as psychopathic. What if one day they find it is indeed a gene and can be fixed? That could be awesome!

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 02:27 PM
The lowest common trait is lying the most destructive is Lack of empathy.
People without empathy turn into predators and the results arent pretty

Again, I need to interject...from a standpoint of the use of the word "empathy". To state "people without empathy turn into predators is absolutely not true and unfounded." This word has been exploited to the hilt and gives a wrong impression when used such as stated above. Can you imagine if you should learn that your neighbor has an teen without empathy as they may have Aspergers and the entire neighborhood fears that she will turn into a predator?

And yes, this is from a personal standpoint. I've written about this over and again. One of my purposes in this thread, after discovering how much the word is being used, was to help keep the posters educated on the proper usage of the word as to alleviate misconceptions of those who lack or do not have empathy in sentences such as above. Apparently my goal is failing. Let me clarify. Not all people who lack empathy are going to be sociopathic, destructive, or a Casey Anthony.

Remember, there are those who are born without the ability to empathize (such as those with autism spectrum disorders) and it is unfair to state they will turn into predators. Nor, in my opinion, is the most destructive "is the lack of empathy".

In my personal opinion the most destructive are those who lack conscience, moral goodness and self control.

This is a pretty good article that basically asks the question: Why do autistics have a sense of morality while psychopaths do not, given that they both display a deficit of empathy? (ASD=autism spectrum disorder)http://fvignemont.googlepages.com/Autism_Morality_Empathy.doc.

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 02:34 PM
could he be talking about the time he threw his father through the glass door?

i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.

I wondered if it was about the glass door incident, as well. As a parent, I can say that I do know that sometimes I have lived in denial..or I should say living in denial? But I'm not sure if it is so much "denial" as it is "unknown circumstances and hope"? By that I mean, sometimes when raising a child with multiple special needs, such as my son, I find that I "could" still be in some phase of denial because I always have the hopes that he will marry and carry a full time job someday and have a family...and/or could live on his own and be functional in his own life without intervention and constant monitoring that he now requires at the age of 19. However, I say denial because just when I may think it "could be possible" something will occur that is like a "slap of reality" to myself that says my expectations may be unreasonable. So it's like a see saw...up and down of emotions. I've found others in my autisum support group have the same feelings which is why we live day to day with our children, one day at a time with what they can accomplish.

eddeva
01-10-2009, 02:48 PM
I wondered if it was about the glass door incident, as well. As a parent, I can say that I do know that sometimes I have lived in denial..or I should say living in denial? But I'm not sure if it is so much "denial" as it is "unknown circumstances and hope"? By that I mean, sometimes when raising a child with multiple special needs, such as my son, I find that I "could" still be in some phase of denial because I always have the hopes that he will marry and carry a full time job someday and have a family...and/or could live on his own and be functional in his own life without intervention and constant monitoring that he now requires at the age of 19. However, I say denial because just when I may think it "could be possible" something will occur that is like a "slap of reality" to myself that says my expectations may be unreasonable. So it's like a see saw...up and down of emotions. I've found others in my autisum support group have the same feelings which is why we live day to day with our children, one day at a time with what they can accomplish.

i understand what you mean now, somewhere between hope and a leap of necessary faith.
when i was younger i worked with autistic children and other special needs little ones. your son will be in my prayers.

KeriOkie
01-10-2009, 02:50 PM
I found an interesting web page, Profile of the Sociopath (http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html). A lot of it seems to describe KC to a "t". Be sure to read the sections titled "The Psychopath Next Door" and "The Malignant Personality."

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 02:59 PM
i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.


From some of what I've been reading I found this from an article on the web: "denial is one of many defense mechanisms. It entails ignoring or refusing to believe an unpleasant reality. Defense mechanisms protect one's psychological wellbeing in traumatic situations, or in any situation that produces anxiety or conflict. However, they do not resolve the anxiety-producing situation and, if overused, can lead to psychological disorders." This definition would seem to be quite the reason that both George and Cindy were in denial. (or still are?) I would imagine their fears of Caylee being dead was so traumatic of a thought and Casey's feeding them the line that "she is protecting their family from some terrible people" helped justify or overcome their fears of Caylee being deceased to the point that they actually believed Casey in that some other scenario existed in Caylee's disappearance which caused them to continue to search for a living Caylee. One thing about denial that I believe we can all relate to is the fact that ONLOOKERS can usually spot denial in one who is in denial. Such as the alcoholic who does not think they are alcoholics, yet everyone around them knows they are.

eddeva
01-10-2009, 03:21 PM
One thing about denial that I believe we can all relate to is the fact that ONLOOKERS can usually spot denial in one who is in denial. Such as the alcoholic who does not think they are alcoholics, yet everyone around them knows they are.

and if these two were even in the same state as 'normal' i'd agree with you.
i'll be honest - i've never seen people who lie as much as the anthonys and i've known some, err, undesirable characters in my time.
that's the problem - is it denial or deceit?
i lean towards deceit, but i still hold out the possibility of some strange form of denial. i just don't think it's likely anymore.

Brini
01-10-2009, 03:27 PM
Thank goodness for that.

But, she could do a Susan S, and get knocked up in the slam.

Brini
01-10-2009, 03:28 PM
It was stated she has gained weight due to her snacking and boredom. Thank the good Lord that's the reason!

That's always been MY reason!:) Where are the Ho'Hos? Did I say "ho?"

BetsyB
01-10-2009, 03:34 PM
The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, PhD is a worthwhile read, as well. In addition to really defining the personality disorder quite well, it explains that a sort of continuum of sociopathy that can exist. Some sociopaths are monsters, others are highly successful, and still others are empty shells.

I am the daughter of a sociopath. I am also the aunt of one (raised in the same house as I, during my teen years, largely by my parents--which means that my sociopath father contributed to the rearing of my sociopath nephew). My family psych history is checkered enough to give any researcher pause, but from my own (albeit limited) experience, I've concluded that there are both innate and learned components to sociopathy.

The nurture (learned) aspects relate primarily to how well the sociopath functions, IMO. It's my belief that a sociopath is born as such. However, the environment in which s/he is raised (including his/her interactions with others) determines how s/he will function (or not function) in a world populated by other human beings with which s/he really feels no connection and for whom s/he feels no responsibility.

Just my :twocents: du jour :)

Lavanda Dolce
01-10-2009, 06:01 PM
and if these two were even in the same state as 'normal' i'd agree with you.
i'll be honest - i've never seen people who lie as much as the anthonys and i've known some, err, undesirable characters in my time.
that's the problem - is it denial or deceit?
i lean towards deceit, but i still hold out the possibility of some strange form of denial. i just don't think it's likely anymore.

Tis true. Guess that would be the question of the day. Are they in fact in denial or were they deceitful to have onlookers think they were in denial? I personally believe they were in denial.

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 02:28 AM
I agree- she is one for the books.

What is DBT?





http://bpd.about.com/od/treatments/a/IntroDBT.htm

sassy_texasbelle2
01-11-2009, 02:36 AM
Tis true. Guess that would be the question of the day. Are they in fact in denial or were they deceitful to have onlookers think they were in denial? I personally believe they were in denial.

Do you remember CA saying to LE you guys were so good the first 4 days keeping us informed. She lost control over everything, and could not fix KC's mistakes this time. It was totally out of her hands. The lies started. Trying to do anything to throw LE and the world off of thinking the Mother of the Year was responsible. I think KC truly thought she would be coming home and it would all be over. Good ole Mom will fix it one more time, and Zanny will fry if they ever find her.

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 03:19 AM
The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, PhD is a worthwhile read, as well. In addition to really defining the personality disorder quite well, it explains that a sort of continuum of sociopathy that can exist. Some sociopaths are monsters, others are highly successful, and still others are empty shells.

I am the daughter of a sociopath. I am also the aunt of one (raised in the same house as I, during my teen years, largely by my parents--which means that my sociopath father contributed to the rearing of my sociopath nephew). My family psych history is checkered enough to give any researcher pause, but from my own (albeit limited) experience, I've concluded that there are both innate and learned components to sociopathy.

The nurture (learned) aspects relate primarily to how well the sociopath functions, IMO. It's my belief that a sociopath is born as such. However, the environment in which s/he is raised (including his/her interactions with others) determines how s/he will function (or not function) in a world populated by other human beings with which s/he really feels no connection and for whom s/he feels no responsibility.

Just my :twocents: du jour :)

Great post! ITA. They even have intensive programs for children who have a high risk of ending up psychopaths.

txsvicki
01-11-2009, 03:32 AM
Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing? Here is the video in reference:
Move the clip to 8:00
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206395/index.html

2) in the clip around 5:00 George talks about how he believes Caylee is closeby and every night he prays...at this point Casey completely looks extremely under duress and "breaks down in her own quiet way"...I get the impression that she is thinking how sad she feels for her dad because she knows Caylee is not alive. Do you get the same impression? I wish the focus would have continued on how they are suffering without Caylee...because I've a feeling she could have been broke down. But George then switches to Casey and what he is doing to help her...and Casey completely comes out of the "near breakdown" into a different mental mode....Boy I wish they would have kept going on about Caylee and all the stuff she did and what they missed. I think that could have broken Casey...which then says to me ...there just could be a bit of guilt in her after all?

3) Also, in the same video, around the 6:00 time point...regarding the family dynamics, George mentions how they never really listened to Casey and how they will from now on change and how maybe they were too domineering in raising Casey.

4) George CLEARLY to me, is in total denial. Casey just feeds right along into him regarding the event for the other missing children. I mean he REALLY believes that Caylee will come home, Casey will come out and then she (CASEY) could help work for the missing children organization! (go to 10:21)....and Casey states to him (about working for missing children organizations)...."Oh absolutely."....she is really feeding him what he wants to hear. I guess somewhere in me I felt George knew all along...but just listening to him he sounds too darn sincere and that he IS IN FACT in denial. What are your thoughts?

5) Further along the denial..(see 11:58)....he talks about "how they can all go into protective custody." I truly believe that Cindy and George really thought that Casey got involved into something very bad and that Casey was trying to protect them. I think this really shows how much in denial George himself was in...perhaps a protective measure to protect his own deep knowledge of knowing the truth that no way could Caylee be alive?

6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?


I don't think George was in denial, I think he knew exactly what happened and the protective custody comment was a hint about a kidnap retaliation excuse for Casey to start coming up with. I'm probably the only one on any forum who thinks that Cindy is not the narcissist in this family....

Psmith
01-11-2009, 03:39 AM
Perhaps off topic, but do you think that the A's or at least one of them knew the site and was directing PI Casey? I can nearly imagine it, so used to A family shenangians. I can see CA on the cellphone right now, calling and directing, micromanaging, making him go back repeatedly.

Is possible or likely?

I'd really like some opinion as to the likelihood of the one of the family being in on facts vs. Baez. Who would KC tell or hint STRONGLY to? The PI was within 10 feet of remains.

(Another monkey wrench, please bear with me, the Astros say a certain criminal lawyer, ie civil suit, may have been on the phone. Astros have never been wrong yet, not once. But where did atty get info....eeek.)

essies
01-11-2009, 03:45 AM
Perhaps off topic, but do you think that the A's or at least one of them knew the site and was directing PI Casey? I can nearly imagine it, so used to A family shenangians. I can see CA on the cellphone right now, calling and directing, micromanaging, making him go back repeatedly.

Is possible or likely?

I'd really like some opinion as to the likelihood of the one of the family being in on facts vs. Baez. Who would KC tell or hint STRONGLY to? The PI was within 10 feet of remains.

(Another monkey wrench, please bear with me, the Astros say a certain criminal lawyer, ie civil suit, may have been on the phone. Astros have never been wrong yet, not once. But where did atty get info....eeek.)

Can I have directions to the Astro thread please? I haven't read there in a long while - need to see this before I can comment!:)

elfie
01-11-2009, 04:00 AM
Perhaps off topic, but do you think that the A's or at least one of them knew the site and was directing PI Casey? I can nearly imagine it, so used to A family shenangians. I can see CA on the cellphone right now, calling and directing, micromanaging, making him go back repeatedly.

Is possible or likely?

I'd really like some opinion as to the likelihood of the one of the family being in on facts vs. Baez. Who would KC tell or hint STRONGLY to? The PI was within 10 feet of remains.

(Another monkey wrench, please bear with me, the Astros say a certain criminal lawyer, ie civil suit, may have been on the phone. Astros have never been wrong yet, not once. But where did atty get info....eeek.)

Wait for the phone records, I guess.

static
01-11-2009, 04:52 AM
Great post! ITA. They even have intensive programs for children who have a high risk of ending up psychopaths.
really good info on the sociopath
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Mind student
01-11-2009, 07:10 AM
Denial...When something splits your world into pieces and what you lived and believed is not reality. Just like the body goes into to shock in major trauma, so does the mind shut down the facts. The feeling of helplessness compounds the inability to believe or remember what happened. ( An expample is many accident victims or soldiers from war,
do not recall the event at all...even without physical injury.)

Mind Student

Brini
01-11-2009, 08:11 AM
Do you remember CA saying to LE you guys were so good the first 4 days keeping us informed. She lost control over everything, and could not fix KC's mistakes this time. It was totally out of her hands. The lies started. Trying to do anything to throw LE and the world off of thinking the Mother of the Year was responsible. I think KC truly thought she would be coming home and it would all be over. Good ole Mom will fix it one more time, and Zanny will fry if they ever find her.

Yep! The world would sift through Zenaidas, and chase "sightings" forever.

chelle70
01-11-2009, 08:42 AM
I don't think George was in denial, I think he knew exactly what happened and the protective custody comment was a hint about a kidnap retaliation excuse for Casey to start coming up with. I'm probably the only one on any forum who thinks that Cindy is not the narcissist in this family....

You know now that you say that, I'm wondering if he might just be a narcissist. But, I still lean towards Cindy having those tendencies as well.

Gypsy Road
01-11-2009, 08:51 AM
You know now that you say that, I'm wondering if he might just be a narcissist. But, I still lean towards Cindy having those tendencies as well.

I think narcisissism is an Ant family trait. I see it in all of them with the exception of Lee. Haven't seen or heard enough of him to be clear. But definitely see it in CA, GA and KC.

icherish
01-11-2009, 09:42 AM
I think narcisissism is an Ant family trait. I see it in all of them with the exception of Lee. Haven't seen or heard enough of him to be clear. But definitely see it in CA, GA and KC.

LOL, funny...I see traits of it in all but George. :)

But the question is, are the traits we're seeing truly part of their natural personalites (well, except for Casey) or is it situational? Did they exhibit such traits BEFORE this tragedy? Scroll information in link below; see especially Acquired Situational Narcissism.

http://www.narcissism101.com/Narcissism_101/kindsofN.html

Lavanda Dolce
01-11-2009, 10:13 AM
LOL, funny...I see traits of it in all but George. :)

But the question is, are the traits we're seeing truly part of their natural personalites (well, except for Casey) or is it situational? Did they exhibit such traits BEFORE this tragedy? Scroll information in link below; see especially Acquired Situational Narcissism.

http://www.narcissism101.com/Narcissism_101/kindsofN.html

I don't see narcissism in either George or Cindy. Just my opinion. Cindy seems to have done a lot of work in holding the family together and for the family...including and especially Caylee. Just because she has a dominating personality and may come across as b*tchy does not in any way mean she is a narcissist...and George is definitly very passive...he certainly does not come across as narcissistic either. He does come across as having a lot of secrets and can hide them well...deceiving...but narcisstic? not in my opinion.

Kimster
01-11-2009, 12:23 PM
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/264941

<snipped>

Narcissism is one of the categories of personality disorder that is being examined in relationship to these kinds of cases, and discussed by authorities as the Anthony case unfolds. One psychologist, among several recently, has considered this as a possibility in the case of Casey Anthony and a possible underlying issue for the possibility she killed her own child.

icherish
01-11-2009, 01:33 PM
To date we have nothing (other than GA's suggestion) to substantiate the "fact" that there is "indeed" any such diagnosed history of genetic disorder anywhere in the A family--much less in KC herself. He has a daughter charged w premeditated murder of his granddaughter. What seems far more likely under the circumstances would be GA's willingness to attribute the obvious A family dysfunction to some "genetic" origins. Because what we are left to explain, in it's absence, is the humiliating exposure of this family's gross and obvious dysfunction... a horrific family skeleton, and the unhealthy patterns and horrendous observable behavior consistent w either classic textbook NPD (and/or other PD). Hmmmm, anybody else around here ever noticed how parents are so quick to excuse their family dysfunction or childrens' behavior by placing blame of course anywhere other than their parenting or childrearing...? JMO

:waitasec:

You can disagree with my opinion, but please don't twist my words. I never claimed a "diagnosed history" of genetic disorder in this family was "fact". What I said was George related that his sister has a history of mental/behavioral issues...we heard him say it on the tapes, so him saying as much is a fact. I have merely stated that George's revelation *suggests* (not substantiates) that there is possibly a genetic component to psych issues in this family.

Just wanted to clear things up. And as always, it's only my opinion. I repect that yours is different from mine, and I have no interest in splitting hairs about it. :blowkiss:

icherish
01-11-2009, 01:42 PM
I don't see narcissism in either George or Cindy. Just my opinion. Cindy seems to have done a lot of work in holding the family together and for the family...including and especially Caylee. Just because she has a dominating personality and may come across as b*tchy does not in any way mean she is a narcissist...and George is definitly very passive...he certainly does not come across as narcissistic either. He does come across as having a lot of secrets and can hide them well...deceiving...but narcisstic? not in my opinion.

I can see your point about Cindy. She has a strong, leading personality that may sometimes come off as arrogance... but she gives of herself. A narcissist is supremely selfish. ITA about George-he's passive and even apologetic. DEFINTELY not narcissist traits.

Searchfortruth
01-11-2009, 02:01 PM
LOL, funny...I see traits of it in all but George. :)

But the question is, are the traits we're seeing truly part of their natural personalites (well, except for Casey) or is it situational? Did they exhibit such traits BEFORE this tragedy? Scroll information in link below; see especially Acquired Situational Narcissism.

http://www.narcissism101.com/Narcissism_101/kindsofN.htmlWonderful site, THANKS !

LCoastMom
01-11-2009, 02:33 PM
You can disagree with my opinion, but please don't twist my words. I never claimed a "diagnosed history" of genetic disorder in this family was "fact". What I said was George related that his sister has a history of mental/behavioral issues...we heard him say it on the tapes, so him saying as much is a fact. I have merely stated that George's revelation *suggests* (not substantiates) that there is possibly a genetic component to psych issues in this family.

Just wanted to clear things up. And as always, it's only my opinion. I repect that yours is different from mine, and I have no interest in splitting hairs about it. :blowkiss:

Actually Shirley P (KC's gma) said the same thing in an email to her sister. She said disorders run in GA's side of the family. And one of them (either Shirley or her sister) came right out and said KC has a similar disorder to G's sister. She named what the disorder is IIRC.

If I find it, I'll add email to post...

sharpar
01-11-2009, 02:44 PM
She said Georges sister was bi polar

whatever KC is - it most certainly is not Bi polar .

LCoastMom
01-11-2009, 03:40 PM
Robert Hare who is the leading expert on psychopaths - says there are studies which
show their brains are in fact different . The big question is are they different from birth or do they develop that way from the misuse by the wingnut ?

The lowest common trait is lying the most destructive is Lack of empathy.
If we as a society were going to try and tackle the problem - there would clear
concise instruction for parents on instilling empathy . It has to developed
at 3-5 years old . Kindergarten would be focusing on activities to instill it
re enforce it and help it take hold.
People without empathy turn into predators and the results arent pretty


When my neighbor's daughter was 5 years old, they were warned that she carries several 'traits' that doctors find in serial killers.

This little girl was 4 when we met and it didn't take long to discover she had serious issues. Constantly doing things that seemed accidental, that ended in injury to children younger than her.

The first week of kindergarten she was suspended 2 times for hurting other children, on the 3rd incident she was expelled until they got her examined by a child psychologist. One child was bit, drawing blood cos the kid was first in line, and she wanted that spot, another kicked in the shin, the third was punched in the mouth also drawing blood.

She is an absolutely gorgeous little girl, her nik name was Angel Face, from the time she was a tiny tot. And it was more fitting than on any child I had ever seen. She looked like a little angel but there is something missing in this child and unless they figure out how to "fix it" she is headed for heart break.

Mom is bi polar, grandma is bi polar, it was a tough family to be born into. Due to circumstances beyond my control we no longer have any communication, so I don't know what she's like at 9. I pray they finally got her help.

kiki the parrot
01-11-2009, 03:57 PM
This is excellent, explains exactly, w more eloquence and far more authority, what I've tried to put into words! JMO

"The fact that abnormal physical changes have been found in the brains of sociopaths does not mean that they were born this way. Things like not having a father during pre-adolescence or of being raised by non-loving parents or foster parents can cause a re-organization of brain functions and structural changes that are evident in adulthood.

The lack of loving parents has been shown to have sociopathic consequences in primate studies. Further, these characteristics appear to be transmitted from one generation to another, as sociopaths lack the capacity to love their own offspring...

Brain growth and changes can occur in the developing human because of environmental and social factors. The fact that abnormal physical changes have been found in the brains of sociopaths does not mean that they were born this way. Things like not having a father during pre-adolescence or of being raised by non-loving parents or foster parents can cause a re-organization of brain functions and structural changes that are evident in adulthood.

The lack of loving parents has been shown to have sociopathic consequences in primate studies. Further, these characteristics appear to be transmitted from one generation to another, as sociopaths lack the capacity to love their own offspring.

An estimated 3% of all adult males have this sociopathic disorder. (The antisocial personality disorder is uncommon among women.) Only a small fraction of this percentage actually develop into violent criminals. Most sociopathic individuals are able to control their disorder within the boundaries of social tolerability.

They are considered only 'socially obnoxious' or hateful personalities, and every one of us knows of someone who fits the description. Corrupt and callous politicians, social or career fast climbers, authoritarian leaders, abusing and aggressive persons, etc., are among them


...What should be done?

We need to address this problem from many sides. Poverty, although a contributing factor in "loveless" childhoods, is not the primary factor. Many loving and moral people come from impoverished environments. Many times, this environment contributes to an individual's character. The main problem seems to be in the process of parenting itself.

We teach many things in our schools: carpentry, housekeeping and cooking, computer skills... These are all great for future employment. But what do we teach about being a good parent? Perhaps a mandatory curriculum in our schools should include exposure to the benefits of loving and caring parental skills. This type of exposure to "parental psychology" might prevent future sociopaths and it also might alter budding sociopaths before their neurological hardware becomes hardwired for a life of emotionless pain.

~Dr. K. Dillard


http://www.viewzone.com/sociopath.html

kiki the parrot
01-11-2009, 04:11 PM
You can disagree with my opinion, but please don't twist my words. I never claimed a "diagnosed history" of genetic disorder in this family was "fact". What I said was George related that his sister has a history of mental/behavioral issues...we heard him say it on the tapes, so him saying as much is a fact. I have merely stated that George's revelation *suggests* (not substantiates) that there is possibly a genetic component to psych issues in this family.

Just wanted to clear things up. And as always, it's only my opinion. I repect that yours is different from mine, and I have no interest in splitting hairs about it. :blowkiss:

Not twisting at all, only emphasizing the denial within families and the tendency on the part of many parents to blameshift thereby avoid taking responsibility (a pattern we've clearly seen demonstrated in this particular family). And offering what I believe is a more credible explanation for all the obvious dysfunction we've observed or heard described in the KC and A family--the very unhealthy patterns which are learned and passed on down through generations. JMHUO
:blowkiss:

kageykaren
01-11-2009, 04:34 PM
Could this be KC? Do not click on but google www.survivorskc.com I found this when researching from the rumor thread. Any of our computer people here to asess the website? There are sidebars about child abuse that you can click on but the site has not been finished. Be easy on me, I had to read alot of disgusting information to find this site. If this is nothing no thrashing please!

debs
01-11-2009, 05:23 PM
Could this be KC? Do not click on but google www.survivorskc.com (http://www.survivorskc.com) I found this when researching from the rumor thread. Any of our computer people here to asess the website? There are sidebars about child abuse that you can click on but the site has not been finished. Be easy on me, I had to read alot of disgusting information to find this site. If this is nothing no thrashing please!

Karen, I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you suggesting Casey set up the site, that she is a member of the site, or that she should be a member?

kageykaren
01-11-2009, 05:37 PM
I thought at first KC was setting up a website while pregnant or shortley after giving birth. On the rumore thread a poster found this wasn't the KC we refer to but a woman in another state. So my post isn't correct. Mistakes while sluething.

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 06:53 PM
really good info on the sociopath
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Thanks for sharing the link.

Egoslayer
01-11-2009, 07:10 PM
If Casey is a sociopath, and like all of you say, sociopathy is passed down from generation to generation. Wouldn't Caylee end up growing up to be a sociopath?

Egoslayer
01-11-2009, 07:11 PM
If Casey is a sociopath, and like all of you say, sociopathy is passed down from generation to generation. Wouldn't Caylee end up growing up to be a sociopath?

LCoastMom
01-11-2009, 07:16 PM
Again, I need to interject...from a standpoint of the use of the word "empathy". To state "people without empathy turn into predators is absolutely not true and unfounded." This word has been exploited to the hilt and gives a wrong impression when used such as stated above. Can you imagine if you should learn that your neighbor has an teen without empathy as they may have Aspergers and the entire neighborhood fears that she will turn into a predator?

And yes, this is from a personal standpoint. I've written about this over and again. One of my purposes in this thread, after discovering how much the word is being used, was to help keep the posters educated on the proper usage of the word as to alleviate misconceptions of those who lack or do not have empathy in sentences such as above. Apparently my goal is failing. Let me clarify. Not all people who lack empathy are going to be sociopathic, destructive, or a Casey Anthony.

Remember, there are those who are born without the ability to empathize (such as those with autism spectrum disorders) and it is unfair to state they will turn into predators. Nor, in my opinion, is the most destructive "is the lack of empathy".

In my personal opinion the most destructive are those who lack conscience, moral goodness and self control.

This is a pretty good article that basically asks the question: Why do autistics have a sense of morality while psychopaths do not, given that they both display a deficit of empathy? (ASD=autism spectrum disorder)http://fvignemont.googlepages.com/Autism_Morality_Empathy.doc.

I have never thought of children with ASD as being without empathy. Many times their emotions are buried very deeply but that doesn't mean they are not there. What they know/feel, and what they display to the world may be two different things, but this doesn't mean they are lacking. Any ASD is so far from my understanding as someone like KC we could almost call them opposites. I never consciously considered KC and others like her as only lacking empathy, as I believe she also enjoys the suffering of others. This doesn't sound like any form of autism or Asperger's I know of.

Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but how often are people with autism involved in the types of crimes only a sociopath could commit? Will someone with autism look you in the eye and freeze your very soul with what lurks in theirs? In all honesty the amount of time I have spent around people at the severe end of ASD is limited. But the time that I have spent usually left me feeling sad that there isn't more being done to help cure or prevent this and never once did I ever feel fear for my safety or anyone else's.

Thank you for educating us, it's funny how our calling can be dropped in our lap when we least expect it.

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 07:33 PM
Denial...When something splits your world into pieces and what you lived and believed is not reality. Just like the body goes into to shock in major trauma, so does the mind shut down the facts. The feeling of helplessness compounds the inability to believe or remember what happened. ( An expample is many accident victims or soldiers from war,
do not recall the event at all...even without physical injury.)

Mind Student

IMO it's more like they dissasociate themselves from the truth. they know what it is.. but don't want it to be.. so they make it go away.

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 08:48 PM
When my neighbor's daughter was 5 years old, they were warned that she carries several 'traits' that doctors find in serial killers.

This little girl was 4 when we met and it didn't take long to discover she had serious issues. Constantly doing things that seemed accidental, that ended in injury to children younger than her.

The first week of kindergarten she was suspended 2 times for hurting other children, on the 3rd incident she was expelled until they got her examined by a child psychologist. One child was bit, drawing blood cos the kid was first in line, and she wanted that spot, another kicked in the shin, the third was punched in the mouth also drawing blood.

She is an absolutely gorgeous little girl, her nik name was Angel Face, from the time she was a tiny tot. And it was more fitting than on any child I had ever seen. She looked like a little angel but there is something missing in this child and unless they figure out how to "fix it" she is headed for heart break.

Mom is bi polar, grandma is bi polar, it was a tough family to be born into. Due to circumstances beyond my control we no longer have any communication, so I don't know what she's like at 9. I pray they finally got her help.

But then you have the people who choose to DO something about it, to stop the cycle. The majority of my family members are/were just riddled with mental illness & addiction issues. And ya'll get the basic "idea" of my issues.. My son has been diagnosed with Bipolar (as well as a couple of co-morbid disorders & Tourettes syndrome) and is certainly more at "risk" of screwing up because of those dx's. By the time I was my sons age I was 3 years into a prescription drug addiction, black out drinking on weekends, "dating" grown men, getting suspended from school, getting into physical altercations, blah blah.

But he is a completely different kid than I was, and we have the same illnesses, the same tendencies. I firmly believe it is because he has been held accountable for his actions since the day his actions became his own. Because I haven't run around fixing everything for him, rescuing and enabling him. I am consistant in my love for him, I don't depend on him for my emotional well being. I allow him to be who he is, to express himself and to be independent from me. I have taught him about personal responsiblility & I have taught him how to use the stove & washing machine. I don't let him manipulate me.. I don't expect him to live his life to please me . I respect him but I expect him to respect me too. And it works because we both give each another reasons to.

A parents job is to RAISE their children.. not to make them dependent on you. I get that illnesses are genetic (I had my tubes tied when I was diagnosed with Bipolar for that very reason!) but I also get that how a person is raised has a huge impact on the person they become.

mo

LCoastMom
01-11-2009, 10:11 PM
But then you have the people who choose to DO something about it, to stop the cycle. The majority of my family members are/were just riddled with mental illness & addiction issues. And ya'll get the basic "idea" of my issues.. My son has been diagnosed with Bipolar (as well as a couple of co-morbid disorders & Tourettes syndrome) and is certainly more at "risk" of screwing up because of those dx's. By the time I was my sons age I was 3 years into a prescription drug addiction, black out drinking on weekends, "dating" grown men, getting suspended from school, getting into physical altercations, blah blah.

But he is a completely different kid than I was, and we have the same illnesses, the same tendencies. I firmly believe it is because he has been held accountable for his actions since the day his actions became his own. Because I haven't run around fixing everything for him, rescuing and enabling him. I am consistant in my love for him, I don't depend on him for my emotional well being. I allow him to be who he is, to express himself and to be independent from me. I have taught him about personal responsiblility & I have taught him how to use the stove & washing machine. I don't let him manipulate me.. I don't expect him to live his life to please me . I respect him but I expect him to respect me too. And it works because we both give each another reasons to.

A parents job is to RAISE their children.. not to make them dependent on you. I get that illnesses are genetic (I had my tubes tied when I was diagnosed with Bipolar for that very reason!) but I also get that how a person is raised has a huge impact on the person they become.

mo

I think you are very right in what you're saying and how you're raising your son. I'm sure he'll thank you for it, if he hasn't already.

It stands to reason that if a person with no history of mental illness can be pushed into the abyss by circumstance, another person with family history or known tendencies can be kept mentally healthy by a stable environment, good role models and loving guidance.

Not to excuse the adults in your life when you were growing up, but there is so much more known and understood about mental illness now, than even 20 years ago. Medications that are now available keep people functioning and living a productive life. People who who would have spent their entire life screaming about voices only they could hear warehoused, with other people screaming about demons only they could see. Hopefully a time in our history that will never be repeated.

BTW you can't drown, your friends here will keep you afloat. :grouphug:

kiki the parrot
01-11-2009, 10:28 PM
But then you have the people who choose to DO something about it, to stop the cycle. The majority of my family members are/were just riddled with mental illness & addiction issues. And ya'll get the basic "idea" of my issues.. My son has been diagnosed with Bipolar (as well as a couple of co-morbid disorders & Tourettes syndrome) and is certainly more at "risk" of screwing up because of those dx's. By the time I was my sons age I was 3 years into a prescription drug addiction, black out drinking on weekends, "dating" grown men, getting suspended from school, getting into physical altercations, blah blah.

But he is a completely different kid than I was, and we have the same illnesses, the same tendencies. I firmly believe it is because he has been held accountable for his actions since the day his actions became his own. Because I haven't run around fixing everything for him, rescuing and enabling him. I am consistant in my love for him, I don't depend on him for my emotional well being. I allow him to be who he is, to express himself and to be independent from me. I have taught him about personal responsiblility & I have taught him how to use the stove & washing machine. I don't let him manipulate me.. I don't expect him to live his life to please me . I respect him but I expect him to respect me too. And it works because we both give each another reasons to.

A parents job is to RAISE their children.. not to make them dependent on you. I get that illnesses are genetic (I had my tubes tied when I was diagnosed with Bipolar for that very reason!) but I also get that how a person is raised has a huge impact on the person they become.

What One said!!! Wow u go girl, powerful post. I am very grateful to you for sharing, you are doing so many right things! JMO

:heart:
:rose:
:rocker:

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 10:38 PM
If Casey is a sociopath, and like all of you say, sociopathy is passed down from generation to generation. Wouldn't Caylee end up growing up to be a sociopath?

The chances would be greater but given a good upbringing they could be OK. IMO

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 11:06 PM
I think you are very right in what you're saying and how you're raising your son. I'm sure he'll thank you for it, if he hasn't already.

It stands to reason that if a person with no history of mental illness can be pushed into the abyss by circumstance, another person with family history or known tendencies can be kept mentally healthy by a stable environment, good role models and loving guidance.

Not to excuse the adults in your life when you were growing up, but there is so much more known and understood about mental illness now, than even 20 years ago. Medications that are now available keep people functioning and living a productive life. People who who would have spent their entire life screaming about voices only they could hear warehoused, with other people screaming about demons only they could see. Hopefully a time in our history that will never be repeated.

BTW you can't drown, your friends here will keep you afloat. :grouphug:

I wanted to say this so that others don't think that the information I share is me sitting around blaming my mother for my screw ups or hating her for her mistakes during my childhood. I love my mother very much.. she was sick. She truly knew no different. She is getting treatment for her Borderline personality and though she still has her issues she is much improved. We have become close in recent years and for that I am very thankful.

Thanks for your sweet post :)

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 11:10 PM
Not twisting at all, only emphasizing the denial within families and the tendency on the part of many parents to blameshift thereby avoid taking responsibility (a pattern we've clearly seen demonstrated in this particular family). And offering what I believe is a more credible explanation for all the obvious dysfunction we've observed or heard described in the KC and A family--the very unhealthy patterns which are learned and passed on down through generations. JMHUO
:blowkiss:

ITA!

Did you even laugh at my avatar?! I put it up there for you, ya know! LOL

OneLostGrl
01-11-2009, 11:11 PM
What One said!!! Wow u go girl, powerful post. I am very grateful to you for sharing, you are doing so many right things! JMO

:heart:
:rose:
:rocker:

:blowkiss:
I consider this day seized! Who the hell knows what I'll do tomorrow though! :bang:

reeseeva
01-11-2009, 11:16 PM
I wanted to say this so that others don't think that the information I share is me sitting around blaming my mother for my screw ups or hating her for her mistakes during my childhood. I love my mother very much.. she was sick. She truly knew no different. She is getting treatment for her Borderline personality and though she still has her issues she is much improved. We have become close in recent years and for that I am very thankful.

Thanks for your sweet post :)

OLG, I see you jumped ship from the other thread, don't:shutup::saythat:

I think you're Great!:):beamup:

kiki the parrot
01-11-2009, 11:32 PM
ITA!

Did you even laugh at my avatar?! I put it up there for you, ya know! LOL

Oh I noticed lol... I feel ya, I'm right there w ya! And it's an honor. :blowkiss: You are being very good too LOL ;)

txsvicki
01-11-2009, 11:53 PM
The story of the little girl who is five years old and is practically already labeled a psychopath is shocking. The girl has two close relatives who are diagnosed bipolar. Why can't the little girl also be bipolar now in childhood instead of a psychopath? Maybe untreated childhood bipolar could turn a young adult into a sociopath or psychopath. I believe it's inherited in the genes, but murder is just choosing to do evil unless completely insane. I will never believe that having an absent parent or unloving parent will actually cause the brain to change or whatever. Casey could have inherited bipolar and was never treated. She does have some symptoms of mania, at least according to all that I've read.

OneLostGrl
01-12-2009, 12:19 AM
The story of the little girl who is five years old and is practically already labeled a psychopath is shocking. The girl has two close relatives who are diagnosed bipolar. Why can't the little girl also be bipolar now in childhood instead of a psychopath? Maybe untreated childhood bipolar could turn a young adult into a sociopath or psychopath. I believe it's inherited in the genes, but murder is just choosing to do evil unless completely insane. I will never believe that having an absent parent or unloving parent will actually cause the brain to change or whatever. Casey could have inherited bipolar and was never treated. She does have some symptoms of mania, at least according to all that I've read.

No, it can't change the brain.. though it can certainly form unhealthy coping mechanisms which in turn may change their behaviors.

OneLostGrl
01-12-2009, 12:20 AM
OLG, I see you jumped ship from the other thread, don't:shutup::saythat:

I think you're Great!:):beamup:

hahah ya looking to see me get myself banned? One thing I still need to learn is when to keep my mouth shut! LOL

kiki the parrot
01-12-2009, 01:00 AM
Just to refresh lol... the above referenced article states research shows the brain is indeed neurologically changed during the formative years of childhood--the great majority of which is attributed to a child's quality of parenting. Though on a more hopeful note it states it is also possible to alter the course of a sociopath before their hardware becomes permanently hardwired for life. JMO

"Brain growth and changes can occur in the developing human because of environmental and social factors. The fact abnormal physical changes have been found in the brains of sociopaths does not mean they were born this way."
http://www.viewzone.com/sociopath.html

OneLostGrl
01-12-2009, 01:15 AM
Just to refresh lol... the above referenced article states research shows the brain is indeed neurologically changed during the formative years of childhood--the great majority of which is attributed to a child's quality of parenting. Though on a more hopeful note it states it is also possible to alter the course of a sociopath before their hardware becomes permanently hardwired for life. JMO

"Brain growth and changes can occur in the developing human because of environmental and social factors. The fact abnormal physical changes have been found in the brains of sociopaths does not mean they were born this way."
http://www.viewzone.com/sociopath.html


oops.. sorry I didn't catch it the first time LOL

Pink Panther
01-12-2009, 01:18 AM
Kiki - Just a curiousity...What's to say that the "abnormal physical changes" were not genetical pre-destined? Cancer is also an "abnormal physical change" and there is increasing evidence that this abnormal physical change could be (with specific types) pre-disposed genetically. I don't mean to be arguementative, I'm interested and curious as to what you think about this. As always, I enjoy your insight!

Lavanda Dolce
01-12-2009, 10:57 AM
She said Georges sister was bi polar

whatever KC is - it most certainly is not Bi polar .

Shar, I'm not so sure we can say that she is not BiPolar, along with a host of other personality disorders. She certainly could be...especially with some of the outrageous swings of behaviors. It's quite possible. However, again, that is not to say if she were bipolar as the cause of why she did what she did to Caylee. Even if bipolar, she knew right from wrong. Many people suffer with bipolar and they do not commit murder, habitual lying, nor steal for that matter.

Lavanda Dolce
01-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Perhaps off topic, but do you think that the A's or at least one of them knew the site and was directing PI Casey? I can nearly imagine it, so used to A family shenangians. I can see CA on the cellphone right now, calling and directing, micromanaging, making him go back repeatedly.

Is possible or likely?

I'd really like some opinion as to the likelihood of the one of the family being in on facts vs. Baez. Who would KC tell or hint STRONGLY to? The PI was within 10 feet of remains.

(Another monkey wrench, please bear with me, the Astros say a certain criminal lawyer, ie civil suit, may have been on the phone. Astros have never been wrong yet, not once. But where did atty get info....eeek.)


I know a new thread was started for this last night so I don't want to start an off topic, however...what I find hard to believe is that the man was so close and yet didn't spot her? IS it possible the media is getting all sorts of their input into the reportings and they're not accurate? Here is the link for that discussion: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...21#post3158921
As for the psyche part of your question...I don't even know anymore as there are so many twists and turns in this case that I can barely keep up. I was very against the way Cindy Anthony portrayed herself in the beginning and then switched to "defend" her actions because of learning all that she has endured which invariably I still believe causes her to come across as she did...and I do still support that theory....but as far as did they truly know and aware of where Caylee lay, I have to go with my gut and say I don't believe they did. Was Lee aware? Possibly. Was George? I doubt it. Cindy? I doubt it. Baez? YES. IF anyone I believe may have had the awareness is would be BAEZ. That's my penny's worth.

kiki the parrot
01-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Kiki - Just a curiousity...What's to say that the "abnormal physical changes" were not genetical pre-destined? Cancer is also an "abnormal physical change" and there is increasing evidence that this abnormal physical change could be (with specific types) pre-disposed genetically. I don't mean to be arguementative, I'm interested and curious as to what you think about this. As always, I enjoy your insight!

Like most, I can only try to sort through and decipher what's learned by the experts in this field!! Although I give much weight to what my life experience has taught me--and what my hard-earned wisdom confirms--my opinions must defer to a great extent to those w greater knowledge, clinical experience etc. Re this topic and your queston... I posted Dr. K. Dillard's article because it approaches this question from all angles, reconciling some of the apparent conflict, is balanced (something for everyone lol), understandable, based upon research and clinical experience, is born out in my own life experience--and because I found it concise and helpful and hoped others might too. JMO

:)

kiki the parrot
01-12-2009, 12:13 PM
And for One, the only thing I'm really thinking right now is thank you PP for not ripping me a new one lol (j/k... sorta!)
:blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 02:23 AM
Just to clarify, Bipolar disorder is not a personality disorder, it is a mood disorder. Completely different illnesses and not even on the same Axis.

radio
01-13-2009, 03:27 AM
OLG, I see you jumped ship from the other thread, don't:shutup::saythat:

I think you're Great!:):beamup:

Even I think you're great!!!:eek:
Very witty, clever, slow to rumble:) Some of us just had the aristocrats of all mothers - world beware.:crazy:

bookworm474
01-13-2009, 04:47 AM
What One said!!! Wow u go girl, powerful post. I am very grateful to you for sharing, you are doing so many right things! JMO

:heart:
:rose:
:rocker:

---------------

Different kid, different problems.

My thoughts now are what is projected onto individuals that triggers some pathology. Pathologies develop over time due to many variables. What if CA's ego projections onto Casey were so great that she,Casey, could never live up to them, or didn't wanted to and that dynamic cause so much resentment that Casey developed the lying and deceit for the purpose of gaining control over her life. Sure a dumb way to go, but those were the skills she learned at home and in the school culture.

What if CA's ego projections were so complete that it became all about her and with her financial burdens she is the resentful one and becomes antagonistic, actually both do, and as Casey doesn't live up to her expectations, Cindy gets Caylee as a substitute and psychologically diminishes Casey's status and therefore Casey steals as a symbolic way of getting the mothering she lost.

So different kids get a different load of junk projected onto them allowing for some of the differences in their problems with adjusting. Many variables.

I have learned a great deal by reading about shadow projection as relayed through the studies of Carl Jung. Casey has been described as having no self. I guess they mean 'Self' that higher since of being as opposed to the ego self that causes all the personality problems, false self. She sure created a false life through a lot of ignorance of the alternatives, if she could see any alternatives.


There is much more with the relationships in the Anthony home that might come out later. Sure wonder if Casey wasn't scapegoated a bit as part of her lack of healthy ego/Self development. The whole area of shadow projection creates different interpretations. She has to take responsibility for her poor choices, but there could be argued that her belief system was warped by the lack of awareness of her caregivers all along.

Mind student
01-13-2009, 04:52 AM
Keeping in mind that information changes with time, I am sharing what I learned from a Documentary, some years ago.

The children were all from loving homes and educated parents. Physically, the children were above average in
apparence. The one girl was beautiful. In all cases the homes were in constant chaos because of the behavior of the child. As soon as the child began to interact, there
was violence against other children or parents. If there were animals, the child would hurt or try to kill them and start fires. When there were younger children in the same home, the threat of harming
the little one was a ongoing problem. There was no emotional connection between the child (sociopath) and anyone or anything. Sometimes, the child would admit they wanted to hurt or kill..with no emotional. The parents lived in terror, trying to protect all in their home, while trying to help the child they could not understand.

The point of the documentary was to remove these children and they were taken to a farm that was set up
so that there was a therapist to each child. The child was basically stripped of their own will. Every single thing they did has to be approved and controlled 24 hrs a day. It lasted for many months. The child was assigned an animal to care for as part of the treatment. By the end,
it indicated that the girl had been able to develope empathy with her therapist and the animal. It did show
that the little girl was returned home and was doing well.

However...IMO if this has been completely successful,
we would hear more about it. As I have mentioned before,
mental health care is so far down on the list, insurance is not likely to cover such treatment.

Mind Student

reeseeva
01-13-2009, 10:49 AM
---------------

Different kid, different problems.

My thoughts now are what is projected onto individuals that triggers some pathology. Pathologies develop over time due to many variables. What if CA's ego projections onto Casey were so great that she,Casey, could never live up to them, or didn't wanted to and that dynamic cause so much resentment that Casey developed the lying and deceit for the purpose of gaining control over her life. Sure a dumb way to go, but those were the skills she learned at home and in the school culture.

What if CA's ego projections were so complete that it became all about her and with her financial burdens she is the resentful one and becomes antagonistic, actually both do, and as Casey doesn't live up to her expectations, Cindy gets Caylee as a substitute and psychologically diminishes Casey's status and therefore Casey steals as a symbolic way of getting the mothering she lost.

So different kids get a different load of junk projected onto them allowing for some of the differences in their problems with adjusting. Many variables.

I have learned a great deal by reading about shadow projection as relayed through the studies of Carl Jung. Casey has been described as having no self. I guess they mean 'Self' that higher since of being as opposed to the ego self that causes all the personality problems, false self. She sure created a false life through a lot of ignorance of the alternatives, if she could see any alternatives.


There is much more with the relationships in the Anthony home that might come out later. Sure wonder if Casey wasn't scapegoated a bit as part of her lack of healthy ego/Self development. The whole area of shadow projection creates different interpretations. She has to take responsibility for her poor choices, but there could be argued that her belief system was warped by the lack of awareness of her caregivers all along.
Great Post, Thought Provoking!
I think you may have something here! Just watching CA, even from the very beginning of all this, I felt phychologically diminished, each time she rambled on & on, blah, blah, blah, I was always trying to sift through all the unnecessary chatter to extract the important & relevant points! First, I must say, I am a sponge, easilly affected by nuances that would not bother most people. Unconsciously, I would transport myself into being a member of her family, & always had the same, overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. With that being said, I am a firecely independent person, strong in my convictions, & not easilly swayed by others. In my own experiences, I have met certain individuals with such an overpowering, intense energy field, in what feels like "their very life depends on it", personality, that to "Yield" is the only response acceptable to them. I have, many times, felt for KC living with a mother like this, & even George, as I feel people like CA are a force, like a vampire that just sucks the life right out of you, as it being necessary for their own survival....Whew! JMO!! This, in no way excuses KC's guilt, or the choices she has made. IMO, her lying & stealing were symptomatic of an emptiness, something missing, & sadly were never addressed appropriately.

In one of the jail visits, when KC said, "I'm still here", it was like someone waving a flag for some slight recognition.

eddeva
01-13-2009, 11:21 AM
Shar, I'm not so sure we can say that she is not BiPolar, along with a host of other personality disorders. She certainly could be...especially with some of the outrageous swings of behaviors. It's quite possible. However, again, that is not to say if she were bipolar as the cause of why she did what she did to Caylee. Even if bipolar, she knew right from wrong. Many people suffer with bipolar and they do not commit murder, habitual lying, nor steal for that matter.


i'm hard pressed to think of any bipolars who've comitted murder and while i'm sure they must exist, i doubt being bipolar had anything much to do with it, so i agree w/ you, dolce.
actually, if casey were bipolar and felt that she was responsible for the death of her child she'd likely kill herself.
i'm convinced the woman is a sociopath ..... now i wonder what a sociopathic bipolar would look like when it's at home?
bipolars are sensitive, creative people driven by their emotions - casey doesn't seem to have any emotions. can the two even exist in the same human being?
i'd love an answer to that if there happen to be any psychiatrists reading...

Brini
01-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Great Post, Thought Provoking!
I think you may have something here! Just watching CA, even from the very beginning of all this, I felt phychologically diminished, each time she rambled on & on, blah, blah, blah, I was always trying to sift through all the unnecessary chatter to extract the important & relevant points! First, I must say, I am a sponge, easilly affected by nuances that would not bother most people. Unconsciously, I would transport myself into being a member of her family, & always had the same, overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. With that being said, I am a firecely independent person, strong in my convictions, & not easilly swayed by others. In my own experiences, I have met certain individuals with such an overpowering, intense energy field, in what feels like "their very life depends on it", personality, that to "Yield" is the only response acceptable to them. I have, many times, felt for KC living with a mother like this, & even George, as I feel people like CA are a force, like a vampire that just sucks the life right out of you, as it being necessary for their own survival....Whew! JMO!! This, in no way excuses KC's guilt, or the choices she has made. IMO, her lying & stealing were symptomatic of an emptiness, something missing, & sadly were never addressed appropriately.

In one of the jail visits, when KC said, "I'm still here", it was like someone waving a flag for some slight recognition.

Still.. a lot of people come from horrible homes and end up healthy and productive. I did. OLG did, and she had to fight her way up from a severe heredity mood disorder. Neither os us ever killed anybody. And, while she was sickest, and could not care for her child, herself, she STILL made sure he was safe and cared for.

I'm thinking she said, "I'm still here," as a bit if a rebuke to CA. CA had always got her out of trouble, before.

Agree that the As are likely "energy vamipires."

Brini
01-13-2009, 01:03 PM
i'm hard pressed to think of any bipolars who've comitted murder and while i'm sure they must exist, i doubt being bipolar had anything much to do with it, so i agree w/ you, dolce.
actually, if casey were bipolar and felt that she was responsible for the death of her child she'd likely kill herself.
i'm convinced the woman is a sociopath ..... now i wonder what a sociopathic bipolar would look like when it's at home?
bipolars are sensitive, creative people driven by their emotions - casey doesn't seem to have any emotions. can the two even exist in the same human being?
i'd love an answer to that if there happen to be any psychiatrists reading...

I think you are correct in your diagnosis. :)

kiki the parrot
01-13-2009, 01:27 PM
The point of the documentary was to remove these children and they were taken to a farm that was set up
so that there was a therapist to each child. The child was basically stripped of their own will. Every single thing they did has to be approved and controlled 24 hrs a day. It lasted for many months. The child was assigned an animal to care for as part of the treatment. By the end,
it indicated that the girl had been able to develope empathy with her therapist and the animal. It did show
that the little girl was returned home and was doing well.

However...IMO if this has been completely successful,
we would hear more about it. As I have mentioned before,
mental health care is so far down on the list, insurance is not likely to cover such treatment.

(respectfully snipped) The child was also stripped of the environment in which certain inevitable dynamics are present, providing her w an opportunity to learn healthier skills for interacting and meeting her needs, tools for managing her aggression, more effective coping strategies, etc. JMO

shivs
01-13-2009, 01:55 PM
I have never posted a link before. I hope this is the right place.
I dont know if this has been posted yet. It is a video of her court appearance last Friday.

Interesting clip from a body language expert.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2hhJGBFAeg

radio
01-13-2009, 01:58 PM
I have never posted a link before. I hope this is the right place.
I dont know if this has been posted yet. It is a video of her court appearance last Friday.

Interesting clip from a body language expert.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2hhJGBFAeg

Seen this one? It scared me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvsZ5cSZCo

kiki the parrot
01-13-2009, 01:59 PM
Great Post, Thought Provoking!
I think you may have something here! Just watching CA, even from the very beginning of all this, I felt phychologically diminished, each time she rambled on & on, blah, blah, blah, I was always trying to sift through all the unnecessary chatter to extract the important & relevant points! First, I must say, I am a sponge, easilly affected by nuances that would not bother most people. Unconsciously, I would transport myself into being a member of her family, & always had the same, overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. With that being said, I am a firecely independent person, strong in my convictions, & not easilly swayed by others. In my own experiences, I have met certain individuals with such an overpowering, intense energy field, in what feels like "their very life depends on it", personality, that to "Yield" is the only response acceptable to them. I have, many times, felt for KC living with a mother like this, & even George, as I feel people like CA are a force, like a vampire that just sucks the life right out of you, as it being necessary for their own survival....Whew! JMO!! This, in no way excuses KC's guilt, or the choices she has made. IMO, her lying & stealing were symptomatic of an emptiness, something missing, & sadly were never addressed appropriately.

In one of the jail visits, when KC said, "I'm still here", it was like someone waving a flag for some slight recognition.

On the other hand, we can also easily view this in the light of KC's unwillingness--even after 20 years of being CA's baby and do-no-wrong darling--to move over and allow someone else to be the center of attention. By this, I mean as the youngest (and for a couple years essentially only) child, she had never before been displaced. Caylee's arrival changed all that. And CA it seems may have just as swifly changed narcissistic suppliers. The former source (a once compliant KC) for meeting CA's neediness had long dried up and no longer available from her now rebelling daughter... after having faithfully run KC's brain for 20 years, and dutifully sparing her every possible consequence, her child had repaid her w the audacity to try in desperation to separate herself and become independent. (While CA no longer appreciated KC financially depending upon her, neither could she really accept nor permit KC to become emotionally free from her in their enmeshed battle for control.) Clearly a sick codependency as KC by then had also learned an incredible sense of entitlement and envy, how to exploit and manipulate, to deceive and control other's impressions and reactions, and to give as good as she got. And obviously her own failed attempts at establishing any genuine independence engendered great bitterness and resentment on KC's part IMO much more toward CA than Caylee. JMO

reeseeva
01-13-2009, 02:36 PM
On the other hand, we can also easily view this in the light of KC's unwillingness--even after 20 years of being CA's baby and do-no-wrong darling--to move over and allow someone else to be the center of attention. By this, I mean as the youngest (and for a couple years essentially only) child, she had never before been displaced. Caylee's arrival changed all that. And CA it seems may have just as swifly changed narcissistic suppliers. The former source (a once compliant KC) for meeting CA's neediness had long dried up and no longer available from her now rebelling daughter... after having faithfully run KC's brain for 20 years, and dutifully sparing her every possible consequence, her child had repaid her w the audacity to try in desperation to separate herself and become independent. (While CA no longer appreciated KC financially depending upon her, she could never really accept nor permit KC to become emotionally free from her in their enmeshed battle for control.) Clearly a sick codependency as KC by then had also learned an incredible sense of entitlement and envy, how to exploit and manipulate, to deceive and control other's impressions and reactions, and to give as good as she got. And obviously her own failed attempts at establishing any genuine independence engendered great bitterness and resentment on KC's part IMO much more toward CA than Caylee. JMO

Well stated, ITA. Also, I've been thinking about how different she looked last week, how many people commented on those very specific differences. To me, she looked more grown-up, a self-assuredness emanating from her, that almost appeared to be fulfilling? Nor did she look guilty, which if Caylee's death was due to an unsupervised moment, not directly caused by her, she would not feel guilt to what she has been charged with. I know many attributed this to her maybe being sedated, drugged, etc., but I don't agree with that. My immediate thought was,(this is probably the longest she has ever been away from Cindy) she has become the "self" she was never allowed to be. Just my thoughts.....

lawlady84
01-13-2009, 02:45 PM
Keeping in mind that information changes with time, I am sharing what I learned from a Documentary, some years ago.

The children were all from loving homes and educated parents. Physically, the children were above average in
apparence. The one girl was beautiful. In all cases the homes were in constant chaos because of the behavior of the child. As soon as the child began to interact, there
was violence against other children or parents. If there were animals, the child would hurt or try to kill them and start fires. When there were younger children in the same home, the threat of harming
the little one was a ongoing problem. There was no emotional connection between the child (sociopath) and anyone or anything. Sometimes, the child would admit they wanted to hurt or kill..with no emotional. The parents lived in terror, trying to protect all in their home, while trying to help the child they could not understand.

The point of the documentary was to remove these children and they were taken to a farm that was set up
so that there was a therapist to each child. The child was basically stripped of their own will. Every single thing they did has to be approved and controlled 24 hrs a day. It lasted for many months. The child was assigned an animal to care for as part of the treatment. By the end,
it indicated that the girl had been able to develope empathy with her therapist and the animal. It did show
that the little girl was returned home and was doing well.

However...IMO if this has been completely successful,
we would hear more about it. As I have mentioned before,
mental health care is so far down on the list, insurance is not likely to cover such treatment.

Mind Student


Was this mostly about children who were adopted from Russian orphanages? I saw a great documentary about a month ago about children who were abused and neglected in Eastern European orphanages, and then eventually adopted by American parents - and the children were so cold and violent to the parents, the parents thought about giving them up. But this woman runs a totally controlled farm/camp where the children learned to respect one another and let down their guards, and it ended with one of the kids (who was about 12 or so) finally hugging her adoptive mother and saying I love you. Really great, even if its not the same one you were talking about!

kiki the parrot
01-13-2009, 03:59 PM
Well stated, ITA. Also, I've been thinking about how different she looked last week, how many people commented on those very specific differences. To me, she looked more grown-up, a self-assuredness emanating from her, that almost appeared to be fulfilling? Nor did she look guilty, which if Caylee's death was due to an unsupervised moment, not directly caused by her, she would not feel guilt to what she has been charged with. I know many attributed this to her maybe being sedated, drugged, etc., but I don't agree with that. My immediate thought was,(this is probably the longest she has ever been away from Cindy) she has become the "self" she was never allowed to be. Just my thoughts.....

(bold mine) Yes I agree, or in most cases attributed to a lack of any conscience whatsoever. But where I'm guessing a psychopath might not be capable of feeling anything about even the most malicious act w foresight, and perhaps the sociopath would choose to feel nothing about either a rage killing or even an intentional act, a narcissistic young mother eg, whose life is lived "ten minutes at a time," guilty of her child's death by simple negligence yet while she stands accused of something far more heinous, might as you say not feel compelled to walk around with her head hung in shame. I understand what you are saying. And in her blameshifting she's no doubt excused and in convenient (or traumatic) denial of the many horrendous actions that followed. What's hard to guage for me is a) where on the spectrum of narcissism she falls; b) whether something short of full-blown NPD might still eg permit her some shred of empathy; and whether she has co-existing ASPD. Because right or wrong, clearly LE, and one day no doubt a jury, will equate her capacity or incapacity for empathy--for the dignity of her daughter, her family etc in the aftermath even of an accidental death--w the final measure of her innocence. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 04:51 PM
---------------

Different kid, different problems.

My thoughts now are what is projected onto individuals that triggers some pathology. Pathologies develop over time due to many variables. What if CA's ego projections onto Casey were so great that she,Casey, could never live up to them, or didn't wanted to and that dynamic cause so much resentment that Casey developed the lying and deceit for the purpose of gaining control over her life. Sure a dumb way to go, but those were the skills she learned at home and in the school culture.

What if CA's ego projections were so complete that it became all about her and with her financial burdens she is the resentful one and becomes antagonistic, actually both do, and as Casey doesn't live up to her expectations, Cindy gets Caylee as a substitute and psychologically diminishes Casey's status and therefore Casey steals as a symbolic way of getting the mothering she lost.

So different kids get a different load of junk projected onto them allowing for some of the differences in their problems with adjusting. Many variables.

I have learned a great deal by reading about shadow projection as relayed through the studies of Carl Jung. Casey has been described as having no self. I guess they mean 'Self' that higher since of being as opposed to the ego self that causes all the personality problems, false self. She sure created a false life through a lot of ignorance of the alternatives, if she could see any alternatives.


There is much more with the relationships in the Anthony home that might come out later. Sure wonder if Casey wasn't scapegoated a bit as part of her lack of healthy ego/Self development. The whole area of shadow projection creates different interpretations. She has to take responsibility for her poor choices, but there could be argued that her belief system was warped by the lack of awareness of her caregivers all along.

Great post! You point out some important things, imo. I don't have much doubt that Casey was "made" rather than born. Though I'm fully aware that some are indeed "born" that way.

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 04:55 PM
Keeping in mind that information changes with time, I am sharing what I learned from a Documentary, some years ago.

The children were all from loving homes and educated parents. Physically, the children were above average in
apparence. The one girl was beautiful. In all cases the homes were in constant chaos because of the behavior of the child. As soon as the child began to interact, there
was violence against other children or parents. If there were animals, the child would hurt or try to kill them and start fires. When there were younger children in the same home, the threat of harming
the little one was a ongoing problem. There was no emotional connection between the child (sociopath) and anyone or anything. Sometimes, the child would admit they wanted to hurt or kill..with no emotional. The parents lived in terror, trying to protect all in their home, while trying to help the child they could not understand.

The point of the documentary was to remove these children and they were taken to a farm that was set up
so that there was a therapist to each child. The child was basically stripped of their own will. Every single thing they did has to be approved and controlled 24 hrs a day. It lasted for many months. The child was assigned an animal to care for as part of the treatment. By the end,
it indicated that the girl had been able to develope empathy with her therapist and the animal. It did show
that the little girl was returned home and was doing well.

However...IMO if this has been completely successful,
we would hear more about it. As I have mentioned before,
mental health care is so far down on the list, insurance is not likely to cover such treatment.

Mind Student

True, dat! It seems our government is happy to continue filling our prisons with the mentally ill and funding for their care in that manner instead.

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Great Post, Thought Provoking!
I think you may have something here! Just watching CA, even from the very beginning of all this, I felt phychologically diminished, each time she rambled on & on, blah, blah, blah, I was always trying to sift through all the unnecessary chatter to extract the important & relevant points! First, I must say, I am a sponge, easilly affected by nuances that would not bother most people. Unconsciously, I would transport myself into being a member of her family, & always had the same, overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. With that being said, I am a firecely independent person, strong in my convictions, & not easilly swayed by others. In my own experiences, I have met certain individuals with such an overpowering, intense energy field, in what feels like "their very life depends on it", personality, that to "Yield" is the only response acceptable to them. I have, many times, felt for KC living with a mother like this, & even George, as I feel people like CA are a force, like a vampire that just sucks the life right out of you, as it being necessary for their own survival....Whew! JMO!! This, in no way excuses KC's guilt, or the choices she has made. IMO, her lying & stealing were symptomatic of an emptiness, something missing, & sadly were never addressed appropriately.

In one of the jail visits, when KC said, "I'm still here", it was like someone waving a flag for some slight recognition.

Such is the way of life in a personality disordered home. You are not given a chance to find out who you are, you are told and then you are expected to act as such.

MeenaMom
01-13-2009, 05:05 PM
looks like Mama is sticking by her baby www.local6.com CA says to Louis KC didn't do it!!

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:07 PM
(respectfully snipped) The child was also stripped of the environment in which certain inevitable dynamics are present, providing her w an opportunity to learn healthier skills for interacting and meeting her needs, tools for managing her aggression, more effective coping strategies, etc. JMO[/COLOR]

*nodding head in agreement*

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:08 PM
I have never posted a link before. I hope this is the right place.
I dont know if this has been posted yet. It is a video of her court appearance last Friday.

Interesting clip from a body language expert.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2hhJGBFAeg

Hey there Shivs! :blowkiss:

Thanks for the link- yeah, I watched that the other day... interesting, huh?

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:10 PM
On the other hand, we can also easily view this in the light of KC's unwillingness--even after 20 years of being CA's baby and do-no-wrong darling--to move over and allow someone else to be the center of attention. By this, I mean as the youngest (and for a couple years essentially only) child, she had never before been displaced. Caylee's arrival changed all that. And CA it seems may have just as swifly changed narcissistic suppliers. The former source (a once compliant KC) for meeting CA's neediness had long dried up and no longer available from her now rebelling daughter... after having faithfully run KC's brain for 20 years, and dutifully sparing her every possible consequence, her child had repaid her w the audacity to try in desperation to separate herself and become independent. (While CA no longer appreciated KC financially depending upon her, neither could she really accept nor permit KC to become emotionally free from her in their enmeshed battle for control.) Clearly a sick codependency as KC by then had also learned an incredible sense of entitlement and envy, how to exploit and manipulate, to deceive and control other's impressions and reactions, and to give as good as she got. And obviously her own failed attempts at establishing any genuine independence engendered great bitterness and resentment on KC's part IMO much more toward CA than Caylee. JMO

Great post!!

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Seen this one? It scared me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvsZ5cSZCo

lol that backwords speech stuff (or whatever it's called, sorry I forget) is odd but interesting.

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:15 PM
Well stated, ITA. Also, I've been thinking about how different she looked last week, how many people commented on those very specific differences. To me, she looked more grown-up, a self-assuredness emanating from her, that almost appeared to be fulfilling? Nor did she look guilty, which if Caylee's death was due to an unsupervised moment, not directly caused by her, she would not feel guilt to what she has been charged with. I know many attributed this to her maybe being sedated, drugged, etc., but I don't agree with that. My immediate thought was,(this is probably the longest she has ever been away from Cindy) she has become the "self" she was never allowed to be. Just my thoughts.....

I agree! I thought she looked pretty good, she put on some (IMO) needed weight and looked healthy and calm. I don't think she was drugged either.

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 05:19 PM
(bold mine) Yes I agree, or in most cases attributed to a lack of any conscience whatsoever. But where I'm guessing a psychopath might not be capable of feeling anything about even the most malicious act w foresight, and perhaps the sociopath would choose to feel nothing about either a rage killing or even an intentional act, a narcissistic young mother eg, whose life is lived "ten minutes at a time," guilty of her child's death by simple negligence yet while she stands accused of something far more heinous, might as you say not feel compelled to walk around with her head hung in shame. I understand what you are saying. And in her blameshifting she's no doubt excused and in convenient (or traumatic) denial of the many horrendous actions that followed. What's hard to guage for me is a) where on the spectrum of narcissism she falls; b) whether something short of full-blown NPD might still eg permit her some shred of empathy; and whether she has co-existing ASPD. Because right or wrong, clearly LE, and one day no doubt a jury, will equate her capacity or incapacity for empathy--for the dignity of her daughter, her family etc in the aftermath even of an accidental death--w the final measure of her innocence. JMO

Blameshifting is a perfect word for what they do, love it!

Brini
01-13-2009, 06:03 PM
On the other hand, we can also easily view this in the light of KC's unwillingness--even after 20 years of being CA's baby and do-no-wrong darling--to move over and allow someone else to be the center of attention. By this, I mean as the youngest (and for a couple years essentially only) child, she had never before been displaced. Caylee's arrival changed all that. And CA it seems may have just as swifly changed narcissistic suppliers. The former source (a once compliant KC) for meeting CA's neediness had long dried up and no longer available from her now rebelling daughter... after having faithfully run KC's brain for 20 years, and dutifully sparing her every possible consequence, her child had repaid her w the audacity to try in desperation to separate herself and become independent. (While CA no longer appreciated KC financially depending upon her, neither could she really accept nor permit KC to become emotionally free from her in their enmeshed battle for control.) Clearly a sick codependency as KC by then had also learned an incredible sense of entitlement and envy, how to exploit and manipulate, to deceive and control other's impressions and reactions, and to give as good as she got. And obviously her own failed attempts at establishing any genuine independence engendered great bitterness and resentment on KC's part IMO much more toward CA than Caylee. JMO

Parrot gets a WHOLE box of crackers!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Brilliant bird!

reeseeva
01-13-2009, 06:04 PM
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=122459029&blogID=463556442

Has anyone on this thread seen this? I've alread posted on the Caylee MySpace thread, at the cost of repeating myself, this is so:rage::burn::scream: if I say more I'll be:censored:

On the left side there is an ad that reads Pimp My Profile......Ironic!

Pimp My Grandaughter $10

What hemisphere are these people from?? There is not an ounce of SHAME!

:behindbar must seem like heaven! HELP..........

indicat
01-13-2009, 06:08 PM
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=122459029&blogID=463556442

Has anyone on this thread seen this? I've alread posted on the Caylee MySpace thread, at the cost of repeating myself, this is so:rage::burn::scream: if I say more I'll be:censored:

On the left side there is an ad that reads Pimp My Profile......Ironic!

Pimp My Grandaughter $10

What hemisphere are these people from?? There is not an ounce of SHAME!

:behindbar must seem like heaven! HELP..........


And the madness is not going to ever end unless Cindy gets some real help somehow. In an email to Lois as per the daily update thread Cindy is still proclaiming KC's innocence. Not that I expected any less but the trial is going to be interesting to watch...lots more insight into Cindy's mind.:bang:

Whisperer
01-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Listening to the body imaging expert was interesting......couldn't agree more. That last gesture to Baez and that smile she gave is very telling. There is something going on here and may not be only in her mind.

reeseeva
01-13-2009, 06:28 PM
And the madness is not going to ever end unless Cindy gets some real help somehow. In an email to Lois as per the daily update thread Cindy is still proclaiming KC's innocence. Not that I expected any less but the trial is going to be interesting to watch...lots more insight into Cindy's mind.:bang:

Can you tell me who Lois is? daily update thread? My interest is peaked!!

Thanks

indicat
01-13-2009, 06:31 PM
Can you tell me who Lois is? daily update thread? My interest is peaked!!

Thanks

I just saw a new thread started for this topic in the forum. :)

Litig8r
01-13-2009, 08:11 PM
Question...

I heard on Issues with JVM tonight that one of the "Talking Heads" (blond lady - can't remember who) mentioned Casey's psych eval, and said that they found sociopathic traits or tendancies or something like that. While I don't doubt it for a minute, this is the first I've heard of anyone mentioning anything "abnormal" found during the evals. Have we even heard word of what was found in the evals?

TIA!

tiredofthis
01-13-2009, 09:10 PM
And the madness is not going to ever end unless Cindy gets some real help somehow. In an email to Lois as per the daily update thread Cindy is still proclaiming KC's innocence. Not that I expected any less but the trial is going to be interesting to watch...lots more insight into Cindy's mind.:bang:

Do we really want to know what is in Cindy's mind? It might be pretty scary. :eek:

Okay, I'm off to my corner now. :)

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 10:22 PM
Question...

I heard on Issues with JVM tonight that one of the "Talking Heads" (blond lady - can't remember who) mentioned Casey's psych eval, and said that they found sociopathic traits or tendancies or something like that. While I don't doubt it for a minute, this is the first I've heard of anyone mentioning anything "abnormal" found during the evals. Have we even heard word of what was found in the evals?

TIA!

Not that I am aware of. And trust me if it were made public I'd be all over it LOL.

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Parrot gets a WHOLE box of crackers!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Brilliant bird!

I know, she is gooood!! We should pimp her out to Nancy Grace! How 'bout it, Kiki? LOL

OneLostGrl
01-13-2009, 10:27 PM
And the madness is not going to ever end unless Cindy gets some real help somehow. In an email to Lois as per the daily update thread Cindy is still proclaiming KC's innocence. Not that I expected any less but the trial is going to be interesting to watch...lots more insight into Cindy's mind.:bang:

yeah, huh?! d@nm, sombody needs to step in and help that woman.

Brini
01-13-2009, 10:41 PM
I know, she is gooood!! We should pimp her out to Nancy Grace! How 'bout it, Kiki? LOL

With a perch in one of those bubbles where the guests talk from. We could put her bubble just above LPs.

reeseeva
01-13-2009, 11:30 PM
Question...

I heard on Issues with JVM tonight that one of the "Talking Heads" (blond lady - can't remember who) mentioned Casey's psych eval, and said that they found sociopathic traits or tendancies or something like that. While I don't doubt it for a minute, this is the first I've heard of anyone mentioning anything "abnormal" found during the evals. Have we even heard word of what was found in the evals?

TIA! I heard the same thing......she said she has had Many psychologial evaluations, mentioning sociopathic tendencies & :eek::eek::waitasec:pathological lying:waitasec:

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 02:27 AM
Not that I am aware of. And trust me if it were made public I'd be all over it LOL.

You and me both!! She is such an interesting p.o.w. (piece of work, prisoner of war, pathologically oppressed woman, person of worth...or choose your own...)

We should pimp her out to Nancy Grace! How 'bout it, Kiki? LOL

"That's NOT what I ASKED you Kiki!!" :whip: Ouch!

(Er, that's okay :shakehead: but thanks for the compliment anyway lol!)

:blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 02:33 AM
you and me both!! She is such an interesting p.o.w. (piece of work, prisoner of war, pathologically oppressed woman, person of worth...or choose one of your own...)



"that's not what i asked you kiki!!" ouch! :whip:

(er, that's okay... But thanks for the compliment anyway lol!)
:blowkiss:

lol..

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 02:37 AM
lol..

Actually maybe we oughta be getting a psych eval on NG... LOL

:crazy:

Lavanda Dolce
01-14-2009, 07:34 AM
Ok. I have no problem admitting when I may be wrong. So here goes. I heard on Nancy Grace last night when the guy was speaking (I didn't catch his name) and he said that Cindy said a few hours earlier that she loves and supports Casey and that in NO WAY did Casey murder Caylee. Now. Sorry. But this does goes far outside of denial. The ONLY way anyone could be like this is in fact that they are protecting their family member and I don't believe it's just Casey now that she is protecting. I believe Cindy has no choice but to maintain her position that Casey did not kill Caylee because I believe she is now also protecting Lee. This is unreal.

From Nancy Grace last night:

GRACE: And we -- we also learned, back to Kathi Belich, WFTV.

Kathi, it`s my understanding that in the last 72 hours, Cindy Anthony has reiterated that her daughter had nothing to do with this.

BELICH: That`s what I understand. I understand she sent an e-mail over the weekend to a woman who`s daughter had been communicating with Casey Anthony and she told that woman that she believes that the nanny had something to do with this or the very least, I -- you know I could stand corrected on that. But she said that her daughter did not having anything to do with hurting Caylee.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Drew, are the Anthonys still sticking with the Zenaida Gonzalez story?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CAYLEE`S BODY FOUND: They haven`t been talking about that. I did hear Brad Conway say something in reference to Zenaida Gonzalez, how the Zenaida Gonzalez that is in fact filed a civil suit against Casey, is not the person that they were talking about when they were talking about the babysitter who kidnapped her but they haven`t made a comment on that.

On the quote of what she recently said. She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. So that was just in the last couple of hours here that that was released. So, apparently, she is still sticking by that her daughter is innocent.

reeseeva
01-14-2009, 07:47 AM
Actually maybe we oughta be getting a psych eval on NG... LOL

:crazy::woohoo:
Kiki,
I'd love to hear YOUR evaluation of NG. Just for laughs, What are your thoughts?

Dr. Pennypacker
01-14-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by cajun http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3165920#post3165920)
That's when Cindy Anthony replied, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven, she loved her deeply."

Cindy is nuttier than a squirrel turd.

'nuf said.

That sums it up perfect. The family disfunction spreads from there.