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OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 08:44 AM
Do we really want to know what is in Cindy's mind? It might be pretty scary. :eek:

Okay, I'm off to my corner now. :)

Cindy reminds me sooo much of my mom. I'm not kidding when I say I could bring a dead body to my mother, admit that I am the one who killed the person and she would find something else to blame (the people I was hanging around with, drug use, mania or even blame the victim, whatever it took so long as it wasn't MY fault in her head) and would no doubt help me cover it up. I can even see her going to prison for me if the circumstances were right.

A mind like that is very scary, I agree!

Capri
01-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Ok. I have no problem admitting when I may be wrong. So here goes. I heard on Nancy Grace last night when the guy was speaking (I didn't catch his name) and he said that Cindy said a few hours earlier that she loves and supports Casey and that in NO WAY did Casey murder Caylee. Now. Sorry. But this does goes far outside of denial. The ONLY way anyone could be like this is in fact that they are protecting their family member and I don't believe it's just Casey now that she is protecting. I believe Cindy has no choice but to maintain her position that Casey did not kill Caylee because I believe she is now also protecting Lee. This is unreal.

From Nancy Grace last night:

GRACE: And we -- we also learned, back to Kathi Belich, WFTV.

Kathi, it`s my understanding that in the last 72 hours, Cindy Anthony has reiterated that her daughter had nothing to do with this.

BELICH: That`s what I understand. I understand she sent an e-mail over the weekend to a woman who`s daughter had been communicating with Casey Anthony and she told that woman that she believes that the nanny had something to do with this or the very least, I -- you know I could stand corrected on that. But she said that her daughter did not having anything to do with hurting Caylee.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Drew, are the Anthonys still sticking with the Zenaida Gonzalez story?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CAYLEE`S BODY FOUND: They haven`t been talking about that. I did hear Brad Conway say something in reference to Zenaida Gonzalez, how the Zenaida Gonzalez that is in fact filed a civil suit against Casey, is not the person that they were talking about when they were talking about the babysitter who kidnapped her but they haven`t made a comment on that.

On the quote of what she recently said. She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. So that was just in the last couple of hours here that that was released. So, apparently, she is still sticking by that her daughter is innocent.

Why do I think that if KC hears that statement from CA, she'd be ticked off? Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I dunno.:confused:

Capri
01-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Cindy reminds me sooo much of my mom. I'm not kidding when I say I could bring a dead body to my mother, admit that I am the one who killed the person and she would find something else to blame (the people I was hanging around with, drug use, mania or even blame the victim, whatever it took so long as it wasn't MY fault in her head) and would no doubt help me cover it up. I can even see her going to prison for me if the circumstances were right.

A mind like that is very scary, I agree!

So, let me pick your brain for a minute, then, what do you think about Cindy's statement in the post above? How do you think KC would feel about CA saying it?

eddeva
01-14-2009, 08:59 AM
it makes me think she's not only protecting casey, she's sucking up to her. childish, i know, but so is cindy.

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 09:38 AM
So, let me pick your brain for a minute, then, what do you think about Cindy's statement in the post above? How do you think KC would feel about CA saying it?

This statement-? "as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply"

I guess it depends on if Cindy knows what happened, if Casey told her anything... if Cindy is involved in a cover-up.

IMO If Cindy isn't involved and knows nothing I think Casey probably just feels she is pulling one over on her mom. Probably feeling smug, ya know?

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 09:45 AM
it makes me think she's not only protecting casey, she's sucking up to her. childish, i know, but so is cindy.

I don't know.. at this point I think Cindy is more protecting her own sanity than anything else. She really is a very sick woman.. IMO

maryaok
01-14-2009, 09:48 AM
Cindy aggravates me so. The way she's always shoving her husband to the back of her, this ridiculous denial of her daughter's involvement. The ridiculous discussions she has with Casey in JAIL. God that's not the way my mother ever talked to me. She's just infuriating.

This is a little OT but when Susan Smith killed her kids, I could have pushed the needle in her myself. But in a way, I give Casey a little bit more of a break, becuase it must have been so frustrating for her to grow up in this family. Life in prison is more app for Casey where SS, I think should have got death penalty. I never bought that crap about molestation. Never. IMO.

elementary
01-14-2009, 09:53 AM
(bold mine) This is contrary to everything we've learned in 50 years re personality development and learned behavior which concludes sociopaths are made, not born. This "Bad Seed" mentality--the fatalistic notion of demon seeds and psycho genes suggesting that even the most skilled, child-centered, responsible parents who discipline consistently using appropriate boundaries are nevertheless helpless to train up empathic, moral and well-adjusted children--subtly blameshifts, scapegoats, excuses away, and undermines those very well established links. For those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have long reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are NOT in fact born this way--rather to the contrary they've amassed a wealth of research and clinical evidence proving this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood..




No one is excusing KC or buying into her victimhood. I've said repeatedly that she must pay for her crimes, and that nothing w/in her past should allow her to escape the consequences of her behavior. And while I have compassion for anyone now living this nightmare, neither am I willing to blindly cast CA in the role as a sheer hapless victim of fate who suddenly found herself "trapped" by random forces over which she never had any influence. Narcissistic parents produce narcissistic children. And I've merely expressed the hope that by recognizing and understand this pattern we might as a society be better equipped to prevent the same tragedy from replaying itself over and over. If you have no interest in doing so, that's fine by me! :) JMO



Yes we do know. Despite every gritty detail which has emerged about this family there has been not one indication, so much as one person who has ever reported, nor any account given of any attempt by these parents to discipline, hold accountable much less seek outside counsel or intervention for their daughter nor to acknowledge she was out of control which would have done the unthinkable--exposed the family's "dirty laundry." We know KC would stop at nothing because nothing was done ("I should have been stopped a long time ago...") ie when KC had robbed them, LA, JG and others yet we know it isn't until she'd finally stooped so low as to drain her aging GP's retirement fund that CA in fact ever "reached out." We have instead a well established history of rescuing, enablement, failure to impose consequences coupled with turning a blind eye (to obvious lies, signs of unemployment, whereabouts, ad infinitum ad nauseum). Caylee's disappearance and death were hardly the beginning of CA's problems, nor did the causes appear overnight. It was the tragic yet inevitable consequence of no boundaries, in the making for years. JMO

Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

mikeysmommom
01-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Cindy reminds me sooo much of my mom. I'm not kidding when I say I could bring a dead body to my mother, admit that I am the one who killed the person and she would find something else to blame (the people I was hanging around with, drug use, mania or even blame the victim, whatever it took so long as it wasn't MY fault in her head) and would no doubt help me cover it up. I can even see her going to prison for me if the circumstances were right.

A mind like that is very scary, I agree!

But if that dead body was her granddaughter would she blame the granddaughter?

reeseeva
01-14-2009, 10:04 AM
This statement-? "as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply"

I guess it depends on if Cindy knows what happened, if Casey told her anything... if Cindy is involved in a cover-up.

IMO If Cindy isn't involved and knows nothing I think Casey probably just feels she is pulling one over on her mom. Probably feeling smug, ya know?

I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.

Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her:confused:

eddeva
01-14-2009, 10:14 AM
I don't know.. at this point I think Cindy is more protecting her own sanity than anything else.

between me and thee - i think that ship has sailed http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29/eddeva/smilies/wacko.gif

yolorado
01-14-2009, 10:19 AM
Ok, so is it Cindy's theory that Caylee crawled into a bag with duct tape, somehow taped it shut, and hopped into the swamp?

Yo, Cindy, if Casey didn't double bag Caylee and throw her away, she MUST know who did. They had access to her car, and probably items from your household. So, why on earth wouldn't Casey say who, exactly, in non-code English? Wouldn't she want this person caught? Or are you saying that Casey didn't harm Caylee because there was an accident? If that's the case, (1) then why isn't Casey saying it was an accident; and (2) why did Casey throw Caylee away in the swamp?

Searchfortruth
01-14-2009, 10:20 AM
I so enjoy reading all the posts in this thread, fascinating. I wish I understood more though. I especially would like to comprehend the dynamic between Cindy and Casey and how that led to Casey's behavior recently. I guess, as humans, we all want to know why, I know I do.

Devon
01-14-2009, 10:35 AM
I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.

Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her:confused:

Very valid observations, IMO. I also took note of what she actually said. She did not say KC was not involved in Caylee's death, she said she didn't hurt her. It's certainly an interesting comment, especially since the imaginary 'nanny' got no mention this time!

You may also be right about KC feeling that she has found her own power and that she neither wants nor needs CA's previous iron grip on her.

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 10:52 AM
Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

That's the point we were trying to make..


ETA- Growing up in a personality disordered home is very much like "Stockholm syndrome", IMO. Ya do what ya have to do to survive

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 10:58 AM
But if that dead body was her granddaughter would she blame the granddaughter?

hmm.. well, though I can't say for sure but IMO I can't see her blaming either of them.

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 10:59 AM
:woohoo:
Kiki,
I'd love to hear YOUR evaluation of NG. Just for laughs, What are your thoughts?

It's quite simple... She was given the wrong last name (switched at birth), and it's had a devastatingly traumatic effect upon her.

;)

On a short more serious note IMO when we've been victimized (which she was years ago when fiance was murdered) we're faced w two options: we can either be broken by trusting in ultimate judgment and some higher form of justice (therefore searching our hearts, for grace to release that person so we can free ourselves from unforgiveness) OR... we become to some degree embittered. Of course, whatever any of us focuses and dwells upon night and day (evil, injustice etc) gets magnified, and it doesn't seem to hurt her career or her ratings either! JMTC

:twocents:

But back to A's... if all CA meant in her email was that she doesn't believe KC capable of intentionally hurting Caylee or that there was malice involved in Caylee's death, it could be construed as CA having belief or possible knowledge of a negligence scenario yet not feeling at liberty to state anything which might jeopardize her daughter's defense. But to continue insisting inwardly at this stage that her daughter had no involvement whatsoever or go on alluding even publically to a "real killer" would be stuck in major, serious denial. There could also very well be feelings of guilt shared by CA for feeling she failed to protect Caylee or if she suspects any negligence circumstance--forseeable or no. But either she is so image conscious that she's continuing to be deceptive while knowing the truth; or her world, and warped way of thinking, are so impenetrable that she's built up massive resistance to accepting the truth, one reluctant painstaking step at a time. I have to say if it were me (and God forbid my own 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter) in her shoes, I can't see accepting the scenario we have here very easily either. But I think it boils down, once more, to forgiveness. She would need to do the forgiveness work if she faces reality in order to assist KC in doing the same (which for me would require this of me, and sooner rather than later). But IMO despite her protests and public front, CA's hiding behind a mask of denial is likely in order to avoid doing that work. JMHUO

Capri
01-14-2009, 11:13 AM
This statement-? "as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply"

I guess it depends on if Cindy knows what happened, if Casey told her anything... if Cindy is involved in a cover-up.

IMO If Cindy isn't involved and knows nothing I think Casey probably just feels she is pulling one over on her mom. Probably feeling smug, ya know?

yes, that's the statement I meant. I can see KC feeling smug if she truly believes CA means what she says.

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 11:15 AM
I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.

Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her:confused:

I can't see Cindy's "control" over Casey fading that quickly.. it took a long time for Casey to get the way she is I think she will always want her mothers approval. The emotions involved are very conflicting because with the degree of hate/love involved and it being her mother. Everyone wants their mother to love them, ya know?

Capri
01-14-2009, 11:19 AM
I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.

Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her:confused:

Ok, that's what I was thinking. KC's not allowing GA & CA to visit (asserting her power to punish them), JB is her support person for the present time, she's not under CA's thumb, for the first time in her life....(even if it is in jail), and now CA's trying to speak for her. I'd be ticked off if I was KC.

maryaok
01-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Curious to take this in another direction with people who seem knowledgeable. Compare Casey to Susan Smith. Similairities v. differences? Anyone?

Capri
01-14-2009, 11:25 AM
I can't see Cindy's "control" over Casey fading that quickly.. it took a long time for Casey to get the way she is I think she will always want her mothers approval. The emotions involved are very conflicting because with the degree of hate/love involved and it being her mother. Everyone wants their mother to love them, ya know?

I understand the wanting of CA's approval, and wanting her love. I think I just overestimated the effect of time away from CA. It really hasn't been that long, when she's been under her thumb for the past 22 years.

reeseeva
01-14-2009, 11:52 AM
I can't see Cindy's "control" over Casey fading that quickly.. it took a long time for Casey to get the way she is I think she will always want her mothers approval. The emotions involved are very conflicting because with the degree of hate/love involved and it being her mother. Everyone wants their mother to love them, ya know? TRUE! with regards to approval & love.

Thinking about the length of time they have been separated, & with KC having some professional counseling/evaluations in jail, I would venture to guess she may be discovering her "self" in the process. This was very evident to me upon seeing her for the first time last week. Even the tone of her voice was different. Also, she may have some revalations of her relationship with her mother, being in a solitary enviroment, unaffected by the constant, incessant chattering & immobilizing, mindbending dictatorship of that woman. :bang:(sorry got carried away)

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 11:53 AM
Curious to take this in another direction with people who seem knowledgeable. Compare Casey to Susan Smith. Similairities v. differences? Anyone?

I think there is a thread here comparing the two somewhere

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't know.. at this point I think Cindy is more protecting her own sanity than anything else. She really is a very sick woman.. IMO

Yeah, she looks like she is disintegrating.

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:03 PM
Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Dang, folks! This is one of the finest debates on this w/s, ever!:blowkiss:

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:05 PM
between me and thee - i think that ship has sailed http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29/eddeva/smilies/wacko.gif

You're prolly right!

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:06 PM
That's the point we were trying to make..


ETA- Growing up in a personality disordered home is very much like "Stockholm syndrome", IMO. Ya do what ya have to do to survive

Yep-! We both have first-hand experience. :-(

indicat
01-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Cindy aggravates me so. The way she's always shoving her husband to the back of her, this ridiculous denial of her daughter's involvement. The ridiculous discussions she has with Casey in JAIL. God that's not the way my mother ever talked to me. She's just infuriating.

This is a little OT but when Susan Smith killed her kids, I could have pushed the needle in her myself. But in a way, I give Casey a little bit more of a break, becuase it must have been so frustrating for her to grow up in this family. Life in prison is more app for Casey where SS, I think should have got death penalty. I never bought that crap about molestation. Never. IMO.

Exept when I read up on the Susan Smith case I could have swore I remember the step dad admitted it??:confused:

Tammie63
01-14-2009, 12:15 PM
it makes me think she's not only protecting casey, she's sucking up to her. childish, i know, but so is cindy.
The sucking up part I get and at this time believe until CA is able to get control over how things are handled with Caylee as far as funeral and such she will continue to fed KC her devotion. I will be interested in seeing how this plays out once Caylee is put to rest if CA continues to support KC. Right now I believe she is playing kiss a** with KC until the remains are taken care of. She will probably prove me wrong tho.:rolleyes:

jnTexas
01-14-2009, 12:16 PM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

Tammie63
01-14-2009, 12:23 PM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO
I can understand your version a lot more then hers, so much easier to except!

debs
01-14-2009, 12:36 PM
Exept when I read up on the Susan Smith case I could have swore I remember the step dad admitted it??:confused:

The step-father admitted it, in court.

indicat
01-14-2009, 12:39 PM
The step-father admitted it, in court.

Thanks debs! That's what I thought, he even went as far to say he felt responsible for what happened.

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:42 PM
Exept when I read up on the Susan Smith case I could have swore I remember the step dad admitted it??:confused:

From what I read, it was sort of mutual. But, he WAS the elder, so thus responsible.

Still, all lot of women and girls are molested, and do not kill.

Brini
01-14-2009, 12:43 PM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

Poor boundaries.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-14-2009, 12:47 PM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO
:eek: OUCH!! :eek:

thelmadawg
01-14-2009, 01:28 PM
The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy:)

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 01:34 PM
I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.
Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her:confused:

(bold mine) Words your's! ITA! (great minds lol sorry, I'd missed this!!) Sad if it isn't until she's imprisoned that she can find any self of her own. Boundary issues Brini, for sure! JMO

bessie
01-14-2009, 01:39 PM
Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.
Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.

maryaok
01-14-2009, 01:54 PM
From what I read, it was sort of mutual. But, he WAS the elder, so thus responsible.

Still, all lot of women and girls are molested, and do not kill.

He did say that, but then there were rumors after that he just said that to save her from the death penalty and in reality, he had never molested her.

Anyway, both women murdered their children, I think they're both rotten to the core, but in Caysee's case, I almost feel like she didn't stand much of a chance (of course neither did Caylee). I could give SS the death penalty, but not Caysee although I could certainly see a jury voting for it. Certainly.

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 02:12 PM
The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy:)

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.

I too see some similarities. However--and I may yet be proven totally wrong about this--I also suspect or sense significant differences so would only offer the following counterpoints:

1. I think SP had failed to form significant attachments to anyone.

2. As you say, he was more highly functioning in other areas of his life.

3. While exploitative and manipulative, I attribute KC's lack of empathy to narcissism more than to sociopathy or psychopathy.

4. No disagreement here!!! Although many of KC's lies seem to compensate for failures, insecurities and inadequacies whereas for some reason his strike me as somehow more enjoying the power itself.

5. Yes. But his mask was never removed, it never came off. Whereas KC seemed to have a more classical narcissistic spit-you-out-when-I'm-thru-w-you ie she had no problem "flipping" or "switching" in the blink of an eye...

6. It is strictly intuition but I've still not entirely ruled out that the reason KC disposed of her daughter in this manner was to possibly deflect responsiblity for negligence--so deliberately create the impression of a heinous random crime perpetrated by a stranger. Whereas I'm convinced SP threw his wife and unborn child into the bay like refuse because that's all they were to him--waste, to be disposed of.

7. While I've posted ad nauseum re CA's alternately controlling and coddling, narcissistic, parent-centered parenting, she has a generally warmer quality-- and a genuine capacity to attach and to love (albeit in sore need of a better working definition of love!!) There is something about both SP and his mother which strike me as evil. A combination, I suppose of deception but coupled with no real regard for the heartache they heap upon others.

8. Both MAJOR enablers and ENDLESS excusers but per earlier discussion, guess I'll have to reserve judgment on this too!

9. KC's chameleonlike quality, from years of "fitting in" w no real voice or self of her own, is adept at or adapts well to her surroundings. SP was just smooth, apparently devoid of any real emotion--unflappable and unruffled regardless. We know KC on the other hand is quite capable of openly expressing anger, hostility or other negative emotions.

10. Remains to be seen, but if there is any other explanation for her daughter's death, what a travesty if her defense hasn't made every effort to coax an admission of negligence.

11. Really sad but true, people who've never been taught limits or ever learned any internal boundaries seem to need the external structure and rigid boundaries, as provided in prison, in their absence.

ETA: There is no doubt in my mind that SP did, w malice and premeditation, coldly plan and carry out the murders of his wife and child. It seems to me SP (and even JP) lack the most basic human emotions; and that we see in SP the absence of even the most fundamental regard or respect for human life. I guess I'm just not yet convinced of this in the case of KC. But w sufficient evidence, I may form a different opinion. JMHUO (unprofessional!!)

:behindbar

Kat
01-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.


Bolding and underlining by me.

Bessie could you please give us more on the demeter-persephone relationship. What it is, and more importantly how you see this between CA and KC. TIA!:)

Pattymarie
01-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Has there been anything on this board regarding substance use/abuse by any or all of the A's? I simply can't believe all that has occurred in this family without alcohol/drug abuse. I have heard snippets about cigarette smoking, meth/alcohol use by Casey, alcohol/presription use by Cindy. Don't know about George or Lee. How many extremely dysfunctional families exist without substance abuse by family members?

maryaok
01-14-2009, 03:04 PM
Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

kiki the parrot
01-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

(bold mine) The wide consensus among psychologists, researchers, and authors alike, ie Vaknin's Malignant Self-Love, Nina Brown's The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern, Children of the Self-Absorbed etc is that narcissistic parents do produce narcissistic children. In Why Is It Always About You: The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism, Sandy Hotchkiss argues that, depending on circumstances, "narcissistic parents produce either narcissistic children, or children who become ripe for exploitation by narcissists later on in life (ie they're effectively “pre-programmed” for it). "Both have deficient Selves, but deficient in reverse ways. The former has no real sense of shame, since they lack a sufficiently robust sense of self to 'carry' the emotion. The latter have, if anything, too much shame as they lack a sufficiently robust sense of self to put boundaries on the emotion. In the former, the capacity for shame has been short-circuited, in the latter over-developed." She is more optimistic re the latter being far more treatable than the former.

I agree CA seems to behave, in recent years anyway, as tho KC's had some kind of hold over her. I attribute this to the shift in power once Caylee was born--when KC went from being CA's NSS (narcissistic supply source) to standing between her and in the way of Caylee, her new "drug of choice." It was not solely selfish tho, since I believe CA also genuinely cared. (If only we could replay their argument, I'm sure this would be extremely telling!)

I need to remind myself though there is general agreement too, as pointed out in Bernstein’s Emotional Vampires--a broader discussion, covering the gamut of personality disorders--that there are elements of narcissism in all the major personality disorders. And it may become much clearer, during the trial phase when more facts emerge (and if more is learned re malice or intent) whether narcissism alone can fully explain the extent of what we're seeing here. JMHUO

:eek:

Gypsy Road
01-14-2009, 03:35 PM
Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

Take this with a grain of salt, but in the beginning someone was here who had a sister in law who taught KC in high school. She said KC was a bit of an outcast from what I recall. It's also been mentioned that there was a lot of strife between CA and KC, has been for a long time. KC told friends that CA was crazy, and CA told AH and other's that KC was a sociapath or a psychopath (one of those - I can't remember which one). Sounds like there's been some problems there for a long time.

bookworm474
01-14-2009, 04:18 PM
What about plain old SIN?

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.


I think we have a clear understanding of Cindy and what motivates her. She is empty unless she is caring, loving, taking care of, controling and fixing (SMOTHERING). Most of us have agreed that it seems Cindy was unwilling to let her daughter be herself, it's clear Casey had no real "self" apart from what Cindy allowed her. She took over Casey's child, her life...

I think introducing the Demeter-Persephone myth may kinda muddy the waters a bit as very few people here at WS will know what you are refering to. It has been a long process for many here to be able to understand the behaviors when it is termed "personality disorder"- I worry people will become frantic and feel they need to start searching the internet to understand this theory, this "new term" when they don't need to. It describes pretty much the same things, the same behaviors that they all already have a pretty good understanding of.

This is just me but when it comes to things mental health related I think it's wise to explain things as simply as possible so as not to confuse people.. the behaviors that go with psych issues are confusing enough for people who are not familar, I hate to confuse everyone even farther, ya know?

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 05:22 PM
At the risk of re-posting this if I already have, some may find this interesting- it IMO helps explain the family dynamics/behaviors a bit..

Part 1
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=199&wlid=5&cn=8

Part 2
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=201&wlid=5&cn=8

Part 3
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=202&wlid=5&cn=8


Interesting tid-bit on nature/nurture on same web site- http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=96&wlid=6&cn=8

Brini
01-14-2009, 07:36 PM
Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

Not if she is a sociopath.

Brini
01-14-2009, 07:37 PM
Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

Just one person. Ryan knew her from age five or six. He said something to the effect that she was never trustworthy, lied, and always had to be one-up.

He refused to give JB a character reference for KC.

Brini
01-14-2009, 07:39 PM
Take this with a grain of salt, but in the beginning someone was here who had a sister in law who taught KC in high school. She said KC was a bit of an outcast from what I recall. It's also been mentioned that there was a lot of strife between CA and KC, has been for a long time. KC told friends that CA was crazy, and CA told AH and other's that KC was a sociapath or a psychopath (one of those - I can't remember which one). Sounds like there's been some problems there for a long time.

CA said sociopath. She also said it to Ryan.

Brini
01-14-2009, 07:45 PM
Ok, that's what I was thinking. KC's not allowing GA & CA to visit (asserting her power to punish them), JB is her support person for the present time, she's not under CA's thumb, for the first time in her life....(even if it is in jail), and now CA's trying to speak for her. I'd be ticked off if I was KC.

Likely she is. Like, she was pissed when CA went on TV, early on in her first incarceration.

Lavanda Dolce
01-14-2009, 08:26 PM
The sucking up part I get and at this time believe until CA is able to get control over how things are handled with Caylee as far as funeral and such she will continue to fed KC her devotion. I will be interested in seeing how this plays out once Caylee is put to rest if CA continues to support KC. Right now I believe she is playing kiss a** with KC until the remains are taken care of. She will probably prove me wrong tho.:rolleyes:


I have done a complete turnover regarding Cindy. Especially since I read this:

Snippet:
In the e-mail obtained by Local 6 News, Cindy Anthony wrote to Lois Peter, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply."

In August, Peter's 12-year-old granddaughter hosted a candlelight vigil for Caylee in St. Cloud while Casey Anthony was home on bond. Casey Anthony sent the girl a bracelet, a letter and some e-mails, which prompted Peter to unsuccessfully seek a restraining order against Cindy Anthony, who continued to correspond with the girl after Casey Anthony returned to jail.

In recent days, Cindy Anthony and Peter have exchanged biting e-mails, with Cindy Anthony telling Peter that she would not be invited to Caylee's funeral.

Peter responded in an e-mail, saying, "I would not want my granddaughter around a person that condones her daughter killing her own child. At least I know where mine is."

That's when Cindy Anthony replied, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven, she loved her deeply."

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=98098&catid=8

radio
01-14-2009, 08:30 PM
I have done a complete turnover regarding Cindy. Especially since I read this:

Snippet:
In the e-mail obtained by Local 6 News, Cindy Anthony wrote to Lois Peter, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply."

In August, Peter's 12-year-old granddaughter hosted a candlelight vigil for Caylee in St. Cloud while Casey Anthony was home on bond. Casey Anthony sent the girl a bracelet, a letter and some e-mails, which prompted Peter to unsuccessfully seek a restraining order against Cindy Anthony, who continued to correspond with the girl after Casey Anthony returned to jail.

In recent days, Cindy Anthony and Peter have exchanged biting e-mails, with Cindy Anthony telling Peter that she would not be invited to Caylee's funeral.

Peter responded in an e-mail, saying, "I would not want my granddaughter around a person that condones her daughter killing her own child. At least I know where mine is."

That's when Cindy Anthony replied, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven, she loved her deeply."

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=98098&catid=8

How do you feel towards Cindy Anthony now?

Lavanda Dolce
01-14-2009, 08:34 PM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

Ok. Here is a psychological "twist" that I mentioned earlier...what if Cindy "has no choice" but to state continually that Casey did not do this...because she knows if she admits it....publicly, then possible info on Lee's involvement may also be coming out...and she would have to agree to him being involved too. Thus she would be losing 2 of her children. She can hardly state "I love my daughter, I will continue to love her in spite of her sickness in killing my granddaughter" and at the same time...once more hits the media (as I have always suspected Lee involved in helping Casey)....and then turn around and defend Lee's actions? Thus, I believe she is going to continually and publicly defend Casey if for any reason to help keep Lee in the clear. In her mind, perhaps, Casey may have done wrong...but for Lee to pay for Casey's doings would be devastating. Thus...protect Lee by insisting Casey never did it.

Lavanda Dolce
01-14-2009, 08:35 PM
How do you feel towards Cindy Anthony now?

Exactly how I felt at the onset. You know what they say....always go with your first instinct and impression. That Cindy will cover for BOTH her kids regardless of truth. I no longer see her in denial. How much involved she has been is still up in the air. I don't think she knew Caylee lay in the woods...I do think Lee knew, however.

radio
01-14-2009, 08:40 PM
Exactly how I felt at the onset. You know what they say....always go with your first instinct and impression. That Cindy will cover for BOTH her kids regardless of truth. I no longer see her in denial. How much involved she has been is still up in the air. I don't think she knew Caylee lay in the woods...I do think Lee knew, however.

Ok - thanks.

She may just be a mother that will never admit one of her own has done wrong - regardless of what she actually thinks. She is about the age where that stuff started becoming very fashionable imo. I have a cousin like that and she absolutely causes me to 'blowup' at her and hate the kid, sometimes just get overly furious at both of them, sometimes feel like I could actually just beat both of them up, how dare lie to my face...... which is pretty much what I see going on with the Anthony's.

radio
01-14-2009, 08:49 PM
Question for the experts here.

Does Cindy Anthony have a "perfect complex" that appears in public, for family members, friends? Child is perfect child, she is perfect as mother, etc..

Brini
01-14-2009, 09:05 PM
Question for the experts here.

Does Cindy Anthony have a "perfect complex" that appears in public, for family members, friends? Child is perfect child, she is perfect as mother, etc..

Ozzie and Harriet, Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver......

radio
01-14-2009, 09:13 PM
Ozzie and Harriet, Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver......

Well, that gets to the point.

Thanks Brini - was hoping you would show up.

Brini
01-14-2009, 09:41 PM
Well, that gets to the point.

Thanks Brini - was hoping you would show up.

Thanks, honey! :)

Jolynna
01-14-2009, 10:39 PM
If my son killed his daughter (my granddaughter) I would still would NOT want my son to receive the death penalty. My daughter says she would not want her brother to be put to death either. (We discussed it last night.)

I would also still love him. So would my daughter.

I don't know if I could stand to ever look at him. I might lie to myself and figure out a way it was an accident and not my son's fault. I am not sure any evidence would convince me he did it on purpose.

I LOVE my granddaughter. My daughter loves her niece.

I think that when one family member kills another people must be such a mess emotionally it would be hard to sort out. I might have to go somewhere for a long rest in a padded room...

Despite my strong belief that the Anthony family has deliberately lied, I don't feel good about judging them and have never for a moment doubted their love for Caylee.

JMO

OneLostGrl
01-14-2009, 10:52 PM
If my son killed his daughter (my granddaughter) I would still would NOT want my son to receive the death penalty. My daughter says she would not want her brother to be put to death either. (We discussed it last night.)

I would also still love him. So would my daughter.

I don't know if I could stand to ever look at him. I might lie to myself and figure out a way it was an accident and not my son's fault. I am not sure any evidence would convince me he did it on purpose.

I LOVE my granddaughter. My daughter loves her niece.

I think that when one family member kills another people must be such a mess emotionally it would be hard to sort out. I might have to go somewhere for a long rest in a padded room...

Despite my strong belief that the Anthony family has deliberately lied, I don't feel good about judging them and have never for a moment doubted their love for Caylee.
JMO

I agree about their love for Caylee. I think Caylee was Cindy's entire world.

concernedperson
01-14-2009, 10:58 PM
Dysfunctional families lie all the time. That is why they are dysfunctional. It isn't a leap to put the Anthony family in that category. Caylee was a plaything to them and then it got real. Read up as it is all there. There are so many instances of misfortune in life but this isn't one. It has a cause and an effect. This is garden variety and another child is dead. The perp is in jail and will likely be there forever. The rest will have to meet the law and decide if they too are responsible.

OneLostGrl
01-15-2009, 01:13 AM
Dysfunctional families lie all the time. That is why they are dysfunctional. It isn't a leap to put the Anthony family in that category. Caylee was a plaything to them and then it got real. Read up as it is all there. There are so many instances of misfortune in life but this isn't one. It has a cause and an effect. This is garden variety and another child is dead. The perp is in jail and will likely be there forever. The rest will have to meet the law and decide if they too are responsible.

Too true!!

bookworm474
01-15-2009, 01:54 AM
Just one person. Ryan knew her from age five or six. He said something to the effect that she was never trustworthy, lied, and always had to be one-up.

He refused to give JB a character reference for KC.



-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

Whisperer
01-15-2009, 04:28 AM
Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.

marla
01-15-2009, 04:54 AM
Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.






Cindy keeps George around because it would $$ cost $$ her to punt him ..

Whisperer
01-15-2009, 05:00 AM
Cindy keeps George around because it would $$ cost $$ her to punt him ..

ITA...

I still don't think Cindy could live alone. She needs somebody with her.

Whisperer
01-15-2009, 05:04 AM
Goodnight Marla.
:sleep:

marla
01-15-2009, 05:35 AM
Goodnight Marla.
:sleep:

Night .. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj184/befje/smileys/thbedtime.gif

eddeva
01-15-2009, 07:42 AM
If my son killed his daughter (my granddaughter) I would still would NOT want my son to receive the death penalty. My daughter says she would not want her brother to be put to death either. (We discussed it last night.)

I would also still love him. So would my daughter.

I don't know if I could stand to ever look at him. I might lie to myself and figure out a way it was an accident and not my son's fault. I am not sure any evidence would convince me he did it on purpose.

I LOVE my granddaughter. My daughter loves her niece.

I think that when one family member kills another people must be such a mess emotionally it would be hard to sort out. I might have to go somewhere for a long rest in a padded room...

Despite my strong belief that the Anthony family has deliberately lied, I don't feel good about judging them and have never for a moment doubted their love for Caylee.

JMO

but would you, like the anthony's, try to destroy wholly innocent people by accusing them of the murder in an attempt to exonerate your loved one?

Dr. Pennypacker
01-15-2009, 08:06 AM
:clap::clap:Dysfunctional families lie all the time. That is why they are dysfunctional. It isn't a leap to put the Anthony family in that category. Caylee was a plaything to them and then it got real. Read up as it is all there. There are so many instances of misfortune in life but this isn't one. It has a cause and an effect. This is garden variety and another child is dead. The perp is in jail and will likely be there forever. The rest will have to meet the law and decide if they too are responsible.:clap::clap:

Brini
01-15-2009, 08:07 AM
-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

There doesn't seem to be much to her to know!

One of here teachers (the only one who spoke to anyone) said she was quiet, shy, and studious.

The problem is that KC chameleons into whatever she thinks people want to see.

That's the problem with sociopaths. There is no REAL character in there. They are empty boxes.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-15-2009, 08:08 AM
Cindy keeps George around because it would $$ cost $$ her to punt him ..

:woohoo: too funny
LOL

Brini
01-15-2009, 08:11 AM
Cindy keeps George around because it would $$ cost $$ her to punt him ..

And, he stays around, because most women want a guy who can keep a job.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-15-2009, 08:12 AM
Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.






True.
I found myself feeling sad for them reading this.
What a messed up bunch.
Cause of it all seems to be Cindy.
Of course George shares some of the blame.

simonsmom
01-15-2009, 08:44 AM
I believe KC is a sociopath, George is enmeshed, CA is a borderline personality and Lee goes along to get along (or he may be more screwed up than I realize). Does anyone have a link to the very first taped statement by CA, the one where she goes on and on about being the only one who can find Caylee and how tired she is? If so would you post the link.
Lastly if it was my daughter and I really believed her innocent I would visit her even if we didn't speak a word.

Knot4u2no
01-15-2009, 09:01 AM
Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

Perhaps Cindy says Casey would never hurt Caylee because Cindy knows or believes Casey used the chloroform so Caylee would have no awareness of dying and experience no pain.

Russell

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 10:38 AM
Perhaps Cindy says Casey would never hurt Caylee because Cindy knows or believes Casey used the chloroform so Caylee would have no awareness of dying and experience no pain.

Russell

Or, that Cindy was told it was an accident, of an unsupervised set of circumstances, which IF it was, accounts for her statement.

I think it may be a case of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy, which is why KC could not admit that her mother was right, & the horrific cover-up began!

icherish
01-15-2009, 12:58 PM
There doesn't seem to be much to her to know!

One of here teachers (the only one who spoke to anyone) said she was quiet, shy, and studious.
The problem is that KC chameleons into whatever she thinks people want to see.

That's the problem with sociopaths. There is no REAL character in there. They are empty boxes.

Wasn't it said she was taking an AP biology course? Hmm...quiet, shy, AP courses and studious...but doesn't even graduate? :waitasec: It's as though she did a complete 180 as she approached adulthood.

icherish
01-15-2009, 02:01 PM
Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.





(I bolded to respond)
How are you getting that Casey mothered Cindy? :waitasec: Not being snarky, just really curious as to how you came to that idea because I just don't see it.

Since the only time I've ever witnessed substantial interaction between Cindy and Casey was while watching the jail videos, I will use the jail visit as an example.

Listening to Cindy talk to Casey, I don't hear or see a narcissistic woman making it all about herself and how much SHE is suffering. (Isn't that what a person with NPD would do, especially in such an emotional situation?) I certainly saw that in her daughter, though.
Despite her attempts to remain strong and in control, as would be natural with her dominant personality, I do see fear in Cindy. Nervous energy, glaring at her daughter suspiciously, there is an obvious sense of desperation. She is choosing her words carefully- at times it almost seems she is playing devil's advocate. (makes sense, since she is talking to a snake in the grass, figuratively anyway) Cindy tells Casey about the efforts to find Caylee. Asks her question after question, always keeping to the subject at hand and her eyes on Casey. Asks Casey to look her in the eyes (at which time Casey breaks into tears...how telling) At no time do I recall Cindy making any of it about herself. To the contrary, Casey is told not to worry about her (Cindy), not to worry about protecting the family, not to worry about anyone but Caylee. Just do what ever it takes that will lead them to Caylee. Meanwhile, Casey is all woe is me, refers to herself over and over and over again..wah wah wah.:rolleyes:

I am not seeing NPD with Cindy.

bookworm474
01-15-2009, 02:18 PM
I read somewhere that Narcissism of the problem kind develops at age two. Might be either abuse or insecurity that is later overcompensated by doing the entitlement gig, or over praise that gives the kid a big head. Either way, healthy development is disturbed by dynamics that create the personality problems and thinking/belief habits--self-esteem.

There is a lot about trauma that is not clear to people. The whole culture breeds over individualistic ideals creating grave imbalances. Casey was trapped and didn't know it.

maryaok
01-15-2009, 02:34 PM
Ok not meaning to make anyone mad or say anyone's got it wrong on Cindy, but judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection Cindy projects, I know alot of little kids seem like they'd be better off with her then with alot of other mothers out there. That was my first thought on all of this, was why didn't she just leave that little girl with her mother and take off and disappear. Everyone be better off.

I know she seems like she's in denial, but alot of us just are in this case.

yanknrebel
01-15-2009, 02:35 PM
It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

WOW. I think that was a great assessment. Casey is a chameleon. Changing to fit into her surroundings. The word that comes to mind to me when I follow this case is the term "RAD" or reactive attachment disorder. I am not a doctor but was a foster parent for 5 years before adopting 3 children from foster care. One of the courses we have to take is about RAD.

RAD is when a child is not able to bind with any one care giving adult for a lutitude of reasons. Maybe the parent doesnt care for the child;s needs, perhaps the child is in foster care and moved a multitude of times from home to home. Most of these children develop this disroder within the first 12 to 18 months of life. When I read that CINDY was the first to hold Caylee and NOT Casey, that sent up a red flag to me. Why was Casey not the first to hold child? CA is definitely a very controlling woman. Sounds like early on in Caylee's life Cindy was the main caretaker. Whether that is the way Casey wanted it or not. I don't think Casey ever bonded with Caylee. I think it was all a front. All in an attempt to do what she thought her mother wanted and expected from her. I think it all goes back to the dysfunctional relationship and dynamics of CA and Casey;s relationship. I think Caylee suffered for it.

radio
01-15-2009, 02:43 PM
Ok not meaning to make anyone mad or say anyone's got it wrong on Cindy, but judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection Cindy projects, I know alot of little kids seem like they'd be better off with her then with alot of other mothers out there. That was my first thought on all of this, was why didn't she just leave that little girl with her mother and take off and disappear. Everyone be better off.

I know she seems like she's in denial, but alot of us just are in this case.

Nice post. Kudos for the bravery.

I feel Cindy is a good person. Has made mistakes, but who doesn't? Who wouldn't in a situation like this?

She angers people right over the cliff though and I continually try to figure out why she gets right in peoples heads and just enrages them over the cliff. I think "maybe" people just get sick of someone they believe is lying right in their face time after time. I have a relative that will never admit anything about her son. Just sends me to the moon every time something has come up. I just get beside myself, can't stand her kid and can't stand her either during the episode. :rolleyes: Stop lying in my face!!! LOL. Oh well. On the job training is hard sometimes.

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 03:30 PM
Ok not meaning to make anyone mad or say anyone's got it wrong on Cindy, but judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection Cindy projects, I know alot of little kids seem like they'd be better off with her then with alot of other mothers out there. That was my first thought on all of this, was why didn't she just leave that little girl with her mother and take off and disappear. Everyone be better off.

I know she seems like she's in denial, but alot of us just are in this case.

I respectfully disagree. Your saying "judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection" depicts Cindy as a good person, just baffles my mind. It told me an entirely different story. Caylee was the ultimate scapegoat for Cindy's underlying unhappiness of everything going on in the Anthony house. This so-called mad-dog protection never left any room for her daughter to be a responsible mother to her child.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but to me, the picture is just too vividly clear that Cindy way overstepped her boundaries as a grandmother, while emotionally crippling her daughter.

Also to your point of Cindy "seems" to be in denial, IMO, she has been in denial for quite some time, as opposed to most people on this forum.

maryaok
01-15-2009, 04:11 PM
Ya I know there's something definitely unhealthy went on in that house, and definitely she does infuriate people with her babbling balogney, I'm just saying, lotta crack heads out there dumping their kids into lives of total hopelessness, devoid of any kind of love or caring. Imagine a world where every little child could have a room like that.

radio
01-15-2009, 04:16 PM
I respectfully disagree. Your saying "judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection" depicts Cindy as a good person, just baffles my mind. It told me an entirely different story. Caylee was the ultimate scapegoat for Cindy's underlying unhappiness of everything going on in the Anthony house. This so-called mad-dog protection never left any room for her daughter to be a responsible mother to her child.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but to me, the picture is just too vividly clear that Cindy way overstepped her boundaries as a grandmother, while emotionally crippling her daughter.

[Bold mine]

Whut?? When you have time and if you see this again - could you explain what you mean and how you arrived at this conclusion from a picture. Thanks.
reeseeva - this is not a snarky question and I know you are not unwilling to answer a question from 'me'.

maryaok
01-15-2009, 05:00 PM
I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

sharpar
01-15-2009, 05:12 PM
That baby paid a heavy price for that room -

and that nice room will be trotted out by defense to try and convince

a juror that the prisioner isnt a murderous monster .

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 06:56 PM
That baby paid a heavy price for that room -

and that nice room will be trotted out by defense to try and convince

a juror that the prisioner isnt a murderous monster .

Thank You Sharpar...........I wish I was one who could say what I want in a sentence or two.

Which is why I will not indulge a question posed at me of which the answer is OBVIOUS!

maryaok
01-15-2009, 07:22 PM
Well they're not going to get away with that defense because we know Casey's not responsible for that room, and she certainly wasn't tucking her in and reading her a good night story every night before bed.

Brini
01-15-2009, 07:36 PM
Wasn't it said she was taking an AP biology course? Hmm...quiet, shy, AP courses and studious...but doesn't even graduate? :waitasec: It's as though she did a complete 180 as she approached adulthood.

It was AP something!

I think she went wild as soon as she got the chance.

I did that, too. The difference being, I'm not a sociopath.

Brini
01-15-2009, 07:39 PM
-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

I think they're a "closed system famliy." I don't think they have many friends.

Ryan is the only one we've heard of, who has known her all her life. He did not endorse her character. Kiomara has known her for years, but not since childhood.

I suspect she burns through friends pretty fast, then moves on.

Brini
01-15-2009, 07:40 PM
-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

BTW-- Sociopaths are thought to often have been born that way.

Brini
01-15-2009, 08:03 PM
I believe KC is a sociopath, George is enmeshed, CA is a borderline personality and Lee goes along to get along (or he may be more screwed up than I realize). Does anyone have a link to the very first taped statement by CA, the one where she goes on and on about being the only one who can find Caylee and how tired she is? If so would you post the link.
Lastly if it was my daughter and I really believed her innocent I would visit her even if we didn't speak a word.

This post says it ALL!:)

Whisperer
01-15-2009, 08:03 PM
(I bolded to respond)
How are you getting that Casey mothered Cindy? :waitasec: Not being snarky, just really curious as to how you came to that idea because I just don't see it.

Since the only time I've ever witnessed substancial interaction between Cindy and Casey was while watching the jail videos, I will use the jail visit as an example.

Listening to Cindy talk to Casey, I don't hear or see a narcissistic woman making it all about herself and how much SHE is suffering. (Isn't that what a person with NPD would do, especially in such an emotional situation?) I certainly saw that in her daughter, though.
Despite her attempts to remain strong and in control, as would be natural with her dominant personality, I do see fear in Cindy. Nervous energy, glaring at her daughter suspiciously, there is an obvious sense of desperation. She is choosing her words carefully- at times it almost seems she is playing devil's advocate. (makes sense, since she is talking to a snake in the grass, figuratively anyway) Cindy tells Casey about the efforts to find Caylee. Asks her question after question, always keeping to the subject at hand and her eyes on Casey. Asks Casey to look her in the eyes (at which time Casey breaks into tears...how telling) At no time do I recall Cindy making any of it about herself. To the contrary, Casey is told not to worry about her (Cindy), not to worry about protecting the family, not to worry about anyone but Caylee. Just do what ever it takes that will lead them to Caylee. Meanwhile, Casey is all woe is me, refers to herself over and over and over again..wah wah wah.:rolleyes:

I am not seeing NPD with Cindy.

I can understand your questions because I struggled with the term somtimes also. Keep in mind, Cindy is not pathological. Her daughter is. There is a difference in narcissism between ordinary and pathological.

Casey controlled Cindy in many ways. Take a look at the first call/video from jail. you will observe Cindy turning to mush and backing down. I suggest the dynamics in that home were a roller coaster ride with these two women switching it up. I will also go as far to say that kc controlled the whole house. She could play many roles. Kc controlled Cindy and she was starting to lose some of her control when Caylee was born.

As far as Cindy questioning kc, I didn't see much questioning going on of any significance. She led her with questions and guided her to get the answers she wanted to hear. She cajoled her with, 'It's ok sweetheart".
There was not ONE hard question asked, but lots of support.

Do you think because Cindy was telling her not to worry about any harm coming to the parents was necessary? All that did was tell everyone how big and strong 'WE" Anthonys are....self-serving, IMO. Where are the tough questions? Through any of the videos between Cindy and Casey, nothing is accomplished. It goes nowhere, it turns out to some mutual lovefeast for the two of them.

IMO, Cindy puts on her "motherly" persona when she is on the air. It helps her image, she thinks.

Yes, control-freaks are born out of nervousness and anxiety, that I agree and your observatin is correct of her anxiety, however, I didn't see it that day on the video.
I will keep my mind open with Cindy and narcissism but I will not give up that she is histrionic and has emotional issues.

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 09:06 PM
I think they're a "closed system famliy." I don't think they have many friends.

Ryan is the only one we've heard of, who has known her all her life. He did not endorse her character. Kiomara has known her for years, but not since childhood.

I suspect she burns through friends pretty fast, then moves on.

(bold mine) I guarantee it! KC's typical charisma and lack of empathy enable her to exploit friendships--to chew people up and spit them out once she's through w them--because they were never really friendships. She is a narcissist and they are her suppliers. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 09:54 PM
(I bolded to respond)
How are you getting that Casey mothered Cindy? :waitasec: Not being snarky, just really curious as to how you came to that idea because I just don't see it.

Since the only time I've ever witnessed substantial interaction between Cindy and Casey was while watching the jail videos, I will use the jail visit as an example.

Listening to Cindy talk to Casey, I don't hear or see a narcissistic woman making it all about herself and how much SHE is suffering. (Isn't that what a person with NPD would do, especially in such an emotional situation?) I certainly saw that in her daughter, though.
Despite her attempts to remain strong and in control, as would be natural with her dominant personality, I do see fear in Cindy. Nervous energy, glaring at her daughter suspiciously, there is an obvious sense of desperation. She is choosing her words carefully- at times it almost seems she is playing devil's advocate. (makes sense, since she is talking to a snake in the grass, figuratively anyway) Cindy tells Casey about the efforts to find Caylee. Asks her question after question, always keeping to the subject at hand and her eyes on Casey. Asks Casey to look her in the eyes (at which time Casey breaks into tears...how telling) At no time do I recall Cindy making any of it about herself. To the contrary, Casey is told not to worry about her (Cindy), not to worry about protecting the family, not to worry about anyone but Caylee. Just do what ever it takes that will lead them to Caylee. Meanwhile, Casey is all woe is me, refers to herself over and over and over again..wah wah wah.:rolleyes:

I am not seeing NPD with Cindy.

I am. Like the role reversal or blurring of parent-child roles eg, when CA and GA were having troubles during their marriage--and CA chooses KC to be her confidante. (It was never hard for me to imagine this, nor later after her parents had reconciled, why it might have been hard for KC to forgive and accept GA.) Also frequently wondered whether much of CA's mothering of Caylee was limited to those times when it was gratifying her own needs. That began, of course, w insisting KC not adopt out Caylee--yet not fully willing to assume this responsibility herself.

Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.

(bold mine) This is right on the money! Sadly tho it appears that KC, unlike GA, was spared any consequences.

I can understand your questions because I struggled with the term somtimes also. Keep in mind, Cindy is not pathological. Her daughter is. There is a difference in narcissism between ordinary and pathological.

Casey controlled Cindy in many ways. Take a look at the first call/video from jail. you will observe Cindy turning to mush and backing down. I suggest the dynamics in that home were a roller coaster ride with these two women switching it up. I will also go as far to say that kc controlled the whole house. She could play many roles. Kc controlled Cindy and she was starting to lose some of her control when Caylee was born.

As far as Cindy questioning kc, I didn't see much questioning going on of any significance. She led her with questions and guided her to get the answers she wanted to hear. She cajoled her with, 'It's ok sweetheart".
There was not ONE hard question asked, but lots of support. :confused:

Do you think because Cindy was telling her not to worry about any harm coming to the parents was necessary? All that did was tell everyone how big and strong 'WE" Anthonys are....self-serving, IMO. Where are the tough questions? Through any of the videos between Cindy and Casey, nothing is accomplished. It goes nowhere, it turns out to some mutual lovefeast for the two of them.

IMO, Cindy puts on her "motherly" persona when she is on the air. It helps her image, she thinks.

Yes, control-freaks are born out of nervousness and anxiety, that I agree and your observatin is correct of her anxiety, however, I didn't see it that day on the video. I will keep my mind open with Cindy and narcissism but I will not give up that she is histrionic and has emotional issues.

(bold mine) Agree w bolded! There was a shift in CA's focus, as well as a power shift--from CA to KC--once Caylee was born. I could not say the degree of CA's narcissism, only that her parenting style fits well with the definition of narcissistic--ie parent-centered, vs child-centered--parenting. JMHUO (unprofessional)

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Ya I know there's something definitely unhealthy went on in that house, and definitely she does infuriate people with her babbling balogney, I'm just saying, lotta crack heads out there dumping their kids into lives of total hopelessness, devoid of any kind of love or caring. Imagine a world where every little child could have a room like that.

Sure ... but not if 20 years of the same parenting produces another 'KC.' Because even if it was an accident; even if the negligence involved didn't rise to the level of culpable; even if KC's self-involvement and inattentiveness eg were "all" that put her child at risk of harm or the worst cause of Caylee's death), at this stage we already know enough about the cover-up that no one can believe the way KC responded is how any stableminded, mature, well-adjusted, responsible adult would behave. Just saying might be better off in a sparsely furnished room w stark walls and fewer stuffies, but where they're taught boundaries and consequences, ie not raised in a permissive, yet over-controlling fashion but can begin to function independently--and eventually as a responsible parent themselves.

I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

You're doing fine! If you want I'll PM (private message) the abbreviations I've picked up... in the whole four months I've been here! LOL (laughing out loud) or may be a thread about that somewhere IIRC (if I recall correctly).
:)

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 11:03 PM
BTW-- Sociopaths are thought to often have been born that way.

Oh here we go, here we go... :banghead:

You should know better than to get me started Brini LOLOL :floorlaugh:

Actually... (lol for the benefit of those just jumping into this neverending debate!) sociopaths are thought to often become this way, as much of what we've learned re personality development concludes that while there may be some genetic predisposition, sociopathy is learned. (Lest we leave anyone w the impression that despite the most skillful, child-centered, responsible parenting w/ consistent and appropriate discipline and boundaries we would be somehow still helpless to train up empathic, moral, well-adjusted children... nor, heaven forbid, would we wish to perpetuate the myth of the Demon Seed by omitting or minimizing the role of this well established link...
;)
So for those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are not in fact simply "born" this way--rather to the contrary there is a wealth of research and clinical evidence to the contrary that this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood. JMO
:blowkiss:

TotallyObsessed
01-15-2009, 11:05 PM
I love reading all of your posts here on this thread. So much insight by seemingly knowledgeable individuals.

My layman opinion is THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIGGIN NUTS.

Crafti
01-15-2009, 11:07 PM
I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

Ding, Ding, Ding. (Red by me) Nobody saw these rooms UNTIL CA wanted someone to. Nobody knows what they REALLY looked like prior to inviting the media in to defend KC and show how much Caylee was loved by her. I think it was mostly staged. Never even considered what was shown in that interview as accurate to their life.

Crafti
01-15-2009, 11:11 PM
Oh here we go, here we go... don't get me started Brini LOLOL :banghead: :floorlaugh:
Actually... (for the benefit of those just jumping in this never ending debate!) sociopaths are thought to often become this way, as much of what we've learned re personality development condludes that while there may be some genetic predisposition, sociopathy is learned. (Lest we leave anyone w the impression that despite the most skillful child-centered, responsible parenting w/ consistent and appropriate discipline and boundaries we would be somehow helpless to train up empathic, moral, well-adjusted children... nor, heaven forbid, would we ever wish to undermine or minimize those well established links...
;)
For those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are not in fact simply "born" this way--rather to the contrary there is a wealth of research and clinical evidence to the contrary that this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood. JMO
:blowkiss:

There's also alot of belief that there IS a genetic link. My medically diagnosed antisocial X did indeed have genetic defects (I lost our baby at 11 hours old due to one of them), and he was far from abused as a child.

I do not think that upbringing alone causes these severe personality disorders.

ziggy
01-15-2009, 11:18 PM
But what is abuse?

CPS doesn't think my stepdaughter is being abused, but she is being trained as a sociopath and psycopath by her mother of the same ilk.

The devil, or whatever you want to call it is strong. The opening is there at a young age and it takes over.

Spoiling a child can be just as abusive as physical harm if there is a family member that can pass on this trait.

IMO only, but hey, I've seen it and I think I'm right :-)

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 11:39 PM
I love reading all of your posts here on this thread. So much insight by seemingly knowledgeable individuals.

My layman opinion is THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIGGIN NUTS.

Lol that's deep.

There's also alot of belief that there IS a genetic link. My medically diagnosed antisocial X did indeed have genetic defects (I lost our baby at 11 hours old due to one of them), and he was far from abused as a child.

I do not think that upbringing alone causes these severe personality disorders.

(bold mine) Which is why I had to preface my opening statement w "while there may be some genetic predisposition." That in and of itself, however, isn't thought to be sufficient alone either to cause sociopathy. There are sociological triggers or conditioners, hence the name socio-pathy (vs psychopathy eg). There doesn't seem much point in totally dismissing one, or the other, and I've acknowledged there is a predisposing factor. JMO

But what is abuse?

CPS doesn't think my stepdaughter is being abused, but she is being trained as a sociopath and psycopath by her mother of the same ilk.

The devil, or whatever you want to call it is strong. The opening is there at a young age and it takes over.

Spoiling a child can be just as abusive as physical harm if there is a family member that can pass on this trait.

IMO only, but hey, I've seen it and I think I'm right :-)

Scary what people can do... and stay out of prison. So much of it is generational. Parenting extremes, at either end, have proven to be harmful to a child's personality development, emotional growth etc. We know excessive coddling and permissiveness, lack of boundaries or consequences, and inaccountability eg can be as harmful as harsh, severe or overly critical parenting. ITA! And when both extremes are present this is what is thought to produce pathological narcissism. JMUO (unprofessional!)

nancy botwin
01-16-2009, 12:43 AM
The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy:)

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.


I totally agree-- Peterson has been mentioned a lot in this forum, piquing my interest to read more about the case. I'm currently reading A Deadly Game (http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Game-Untold-Peterson-Investigation/dp/B000BHA3WW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232081504&sr=8-1), Catherine Crier's book about the Peterson case. I haven't finished it yet-- but IMO it's an excellent book. Crier purports to include a lot of previously unreleased information, transcripts from Peterson's wiretapped phone conversations etc.

As I read it, I constantly note the intense similarities between Casey and Scott Peterson's communication style-- the circularity of speech, the deflection tactics, etc.

At one point in the book, Crier analyzes Peterson's constant lying and writes:
"More and more, Scott's behavior was calling to mind Hitler's theory reminiscent of the big lie: If you say soemthing completely outrageous, but repeat it often enough, many will finally believe you. Over the years, Scott had evidently learned simply to bulldoze his way through such confrontations. More often than not, he would succeed." (Casey!)

Also, Casey's fake emails about her fake job are reminiscent of the three fake academic degrees Peterson purchased on the internet.

Casey's Hot Body Contest and nights at Fusian are also somewhat reminiscent of Scott's decision to add premium adult channels to his cable package in the days after he murdered Laci.

Casey is quickly irritated or uncomfortable when conversation focuses on Caylee. Peterson seemed similarly annoyed and uncomfortable when asked about Conner.

And, of course, their inappropriate courtroom affect:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmirk.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmile.jpg

Pink Panther
01-16-2009, 01:18 AM
I totally agree-- Peterson has been mentioned a lot in this forum, piquing my interest to read more about the case. I'm currently reading A Deadly Game (http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Game-Untold-Peterson-Investigation/dp/B000BHA3WW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232081504&sr=8-1), Catherine Crier's book about the Peterson case. I haven't finished it yet-- but IMO it's an excellent book. Crier purports to include a lot of previously unreleased information, transcripts from Peterson's wiretapped phone conversations etc.

As I read it, I constantly note the intense similarities between Casey and Scott Peterson's communication style-- the circularity of speech, the deflection tactics, etc.

At one point in the book, Crier analyzes Peterson's constant lying and writes:
"More and more, Scott's behavior was calling to mind Hitler's theory reminiscent of the big lie: If you say soemthing completely outrageous, but repeat it often enough, many will finally believe you. Over the years, Scott had evidently learned simply to bulldoze his way through such confrontations. More often than not, he would succeed." (Casey!)

Also, Casey's fake emails about her fake job are reminiscent of the three fake academic degrees Peterson purchased on the internet.

Casey's Hot Body Contest and nights at Fusian are also somewhat reminiscent of Scott's decision to add premium adult channels to his cable package in the days after he murdered Laci.

Casey is quickly irritated or uncomfortable when conversation focuses on Caylee. Peterson seemed similarly annoyed and uncomfortable when asked about Conner.

And, of course, their inappropriate courtroom affect:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmirk.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmile.jpg
Wow. Great post Nancy...And a MAJOR creepy on the similar facial expression! They could be brother and sister!

MOO

radio
01-16-2009, 01:40 AM
I totally agree-- Peterson has been mentioned a lot in this forum, piquing my interest to read more about the case. I'm currently reading A Deadly Game (http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Game-Untold-Peterson-Investigation/dp/B000BHA3WW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232081504&sr=8-1), Catherine Crier's book about the Peterson case. I haven't finished it yet-- but IMO it's an excellent book. Crier purports to include a lot of previously unreleased information, transcripts from Peterson's wiretapped phone conversations etc.

As I read it, I constantly note the intense similarities between Casey and Scott Peterson's communication style-- the circularity of speech, the deflection tactics, etc.

At one point in the book, Crier analyzes Peterson's constant lying and writes:
"More and more, Scott's behavior was calling to mind Hitler's theory reminiscent of the big lie: If you say soemthing completely outrageous, but repeat it often enough, many will finally believe you. Over the years, Scott had evidently learned simply to bulldoze his way through such confrontations. More often than not, he would succeed." (Casey!)

Also, Casey's fake emails about her fake job are reminiscent of the three fake academic degrees Peterson purchased on the internet.

Casey's Hot Body Contest and nights at Fusian are also somewhat reminiscent of Scott's decision to add premium adult channels to his cable package in the days after he murdered Laci.

Casey is quickly irritated or uncomfortable when conversation focuses on Caylee. Peterson seemed similarly annoyed and uncomfortable when asked about Conner.

And, of course, their inappropriate courtroom affect:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmirk.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmile.jpg

Excellent. A real homerun!!! :thumb:

MaedchenX
01-16-2009, 01:42 AM
Wow, those two could be soul(less) mates!

Great post BTW.

Whisperer
01-16-2009, 02:29 AM
Yes, Nancy....you are good. Thanks for the PICS. Good work... WoW!.

Same pathologies..you will see similar traits.

The only difference with these two is SP is educated, brighter and was able to have a plan with his crime. KC lives in the moment, can't plan well and does not have the IQ of Scott. Otherwise, their are alike. Both have adoring mothers who fight to the finish. Fathers take a back seat. Lee did not even go to courtroom for sentencing.

So far, Cindy seems to have a lot more issues than Jackie. We didn't get to know Jackie, though, like we got to know Cindy. I did have an opportunity to speak with Jackie once. She was gracious and very kind. Cindy is a little rough (?) around the edges...uhm. :whistle:

Lavanda Dolce
01-16-2009, 07:12 AM
Well they're not going to get away with that defense because we know Casey's not responsible for that room, and she certainly wasn't tucking her in and reading her a good night story every night before bed.

That room was no doubt all Cindy Anthony. Look at the rest of the house. Look at the video's in the living room, etc. I mean...we're talking pale beige carpeting...no toys around...no toys strown. If one walked into the house they would never know a baby resided there.I believe Caylee's room was her respite when she was to play. I believe this was on part by Cindy and that was how she raised her children, the same. Any other room, other than the child's bedroom, was merely the "show rooms" of the house. Just too stiff and uncomfortable and all the oriental stuff and glass cabinets...it certainly was not an environment for a child to play in comfortably. I can just hear all the "no-no's", don't touch this..don't touch that. Play in your room".....I mean don't get me wrong, I have liked a clean home as well...but there were indicators in all rooms that children existed.

Galina
01-16-2009, 07:18 AM
I agree about their love for Caylee. I think Caylee was Cindy's entire world.

"I have no life without Caylee." - Cindy Anthony, 2nd August

I believe her. It explains much about her behaviour.

.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-16-2009, 08:03 AM
I totally agree-- Peterson has been mentioned a lot in this forum, piquing my interest to read more about the case. I'm currently reading A Deadly Game (http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Game-Untold-Peterson-Investigation/dp/B000BHA3WW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232081504&sr=8-1), Catherine Crier's book about the Peterson case. I haven't finished it yet-- but IMO it's an excellent book. Crier purports to include a lot of previously unreleased information, transcripts from Peterson's wiretapped phone conversations etc.

As I read it, I constantly note the intense similarities between Casey and Scott Peterson's communication style-- the circularity of speech, the deflection tactics, etc.

At one point in the book, Crier analyzes Peterson's constant lying and writes:
"More and more, Scott's behavior was calling to mind Hitler's theory reminiscent of the big lie: If you say soemthing completely outrageous, but repeat it often enough, many will finally believe you. Over the years, Scott had evidently learned simply to bulldoze his way through such confrontations. More often than not, he would succeed." (Casey!)

Also, Casey's fake emails about her fake job are reminiscent of the three fake academic degrees Peterson purchased on the internet.

Casey's Hot Body Contest and nights at Fusian are also somewhat reminiscent of Scott's decision to add premium adult channels to his cable package in the days after he murdered Laci.

Casey is quickly irritated or uncomfortable when conversation focuses on Caylee. Peterson seemed similarly annoyed and uncomfortable when asked about Conner.

And, of course, their inappropriate courtroom affect:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmirk.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmile.jpg

wow just wow
those pics are scary
great post!!!

radio
01-16-2009, 08:11 AM
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmirk.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/scottandcaseysmile.jpg

What bugs me the most about Casey Anthony shows up in these 2 pictures of her.(IMO) She has so many "looks". Look at the "face". The hair is yes the same ... but the "face" ... it has a totally different "face" look than the 2nd picture. I would not identify those as the same "face".

I see that in all of her pictures and even film. You think you know what she looks like -- then you see another "face" in another picture.

icherish
01-16-2009, 09:09 AM
I can understand your questions because I struggled with the term somtimes also. Keep in mind, Cindy is not pathological. Her daughter is. There is a difference in narcissism between ordinary and pathological.

Casey controlled Cindy in many ways. Take a look at the first call/video from jail. you will observe Cindy turning to mush and backing down. I suggest the dynamics in that home were a roller coaster ride with these two women switching it up. I will also go as far to say that kc controlled the whole house. She could play many roles. Kc controlled Cindy and she was starting to lose some of her control when Caylee was born.

As far as Cindy questioning kc, I didn't see much questioning going on of any significance. She led her with questions and guided her to get the answers she wanted to hear. She cajoled her with, 'It's ok sweetheart".
There was not ONE hard question asked, but lots of support.

Do you think because Cindy was telling her not to worry about any harm coming to the parents was necessary? All that did was tell everyone how big and strong 'WE" Anthonys are....self-serving, IMO. Where are the tough questions? Through any of the videos between Cindy and Casey, nothing is accomplished. It goes nowhere, it turns out to some mutual lovefeast for the two of them.

IMO, Cindy puts on her "motherly" persona when she is on the air. It helps her image, she thinks.

Yes, control-freaks are born out of nervousness and anxiety, that I agree and your observatin is correct of her anxiety, however, I didn't see it that day on the video.
I will keep my mind open with Cindy and narcissism but I will not give up that she is histrionic and has emotional issues.

I totally disagree with the "lovefeast" comment. In spite of the defensive front they put up for the cameras, I believe Cindy (and George) actually fear Casey. I think they have learned the hard way what to say and how to say it to keep her psychologically in check. They don't trust her, but they want her to think they do. It's often a coping mechanism for self-preservation in a captive or otherwise helpless situation. Dealing with someone as manipulative and diabolical as Casey, it isn't so far fetched imo.

I agree Casey is controlling and manipulative of her mother...I think this is her MO with everyone for that matter, and it was never more clearly evident than in the video released yesterday.

As far as as histrionics...after seeing Casey's meltdown, yes, histrionics suits Casey to a T imo. Cindy, not so much. In that video as in others...Cindy's emotion and pain is genuine and appropriate, and clearly out of distress for Caylee, for the entire situation. No histrionics, as I understand the definition.
Casey, on the other hand, is distressed only for HERSELF. In Casey's mind it IS all about her. When her parents all but ignored Casey's
smille and chipper "good morning!" greeting and proceeded to ask more questions and talk about Caylee, it clearly infuriated her. It was downright scary to watch and Cindy was clearly the intended target. She punishes them for loving Caylee. Her own flesh and blood, thier grandchild. I don't believe that comes from a lack of anything except humanity.

Only someone who is completely void of humanity could do what she has done to people. jmo

debs
01-16-2009, 09:38 AM
I saw in the August 14 video, Cindy manipulating emotions to make Casey see how the situation was affecting HER, in an attempt to get Casey to relieve CINDY'S distress. "we're all sick"........well, little miss thang had a response to that "I'm getting sick, too." Neither parent commented about it. They all ignore what's going on for the other. "We're sick." Nothing. "I'm sick." Nothing. Everyone wants their own needs met.

It was eerie to me to see that moments before this calm cool collected George sat down in front of his "sweetheart" he was screaming and swearing at the media outside the jail. They were asking questions about Caylee. They said they had heard that Caylee was dead. George started screaming when pushed to answer questions about that. Casey starts screaming when pushed to answer questions about Caylee.

At the same time, there's a defiant Cindy insisting that just the night before she'd gotten a tip from a woman who was too scared to come forward before then because of all the negative media coverage and that they better friggin get their facts straight, only to enter the jail and become this weepy emotional wreck of a person.

Here's a tree.......there's the apple.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-16-2009, 09:53 AM
I saw in the August 14 video, Cindy manipulating emotions to make Casey see how the situation was affecting HER, in an attempt to get Casey to relieve CINDY'S distress. "we're all sick"........well, little miss thang had a response to that "I'm getting sick, too." Neither parent commented about it. They all ignore what's going on for the other. "We're sick." Nothing. "I'm sick." Nothing. Everyone wants their own needs met.

It was eerie to me to see that moments before this calm cool collected George sat down in front of his "sweetheart" he was screaming and swearing at the media outside the jail. They were asking questions about Caylee. They said they had heard that Caylee was dead. George started screaming when pushed to answer questions about that. Casey starts screaming when pushed to answer questions about Caylee.

At the same time, there's a defiant Cindy insisting that just the night before she'd gotten a tip from a woman who was too scared to come forward before then because of all the negative media coverage and that they better friggin get their facts straight, only to enter the jail and become this weepy emotional wreck of a person.

Here's a tree.......there's the apple.

I wonder how far back this dysfunction goes. Did CA or GA grow up in a messed up environment too and they are just passing it along. So very sad. I truly have reached the point where I feel pity for the whole family. Including the great-grandparents.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 10:11 AM
When you see it up close and personal - you never forget and instantly recognize it in others.

ITA.

I was raised by a mentally ill parent and I'm hypersensitive to both the symptoms as well as the reactions from others. When I watch those jailhouse visits I see myself in Cindy. When she asks KC to look at her eyes while talking and says, "You know I need you to do that, honey." And notice that KC bursts into tears when her mother asks her to do that.

This is a mother who knows her daughter's illness. When she asks KC, "Are we gonna see her again ya think, Case?" And KC says, "I hope to God that we do." CA pleads with KC in a hopeless tone of voice, "Casey." Because she knows her daughter isn't being honest. In her tone of voice I hear myself pleading with my mentally ill person to open up and tell me what's going on in their head. Watch the video and imagine yourself as CA, knowing your daughter is lying and just wishing she could tell the truth.

Casey doesn't get along with her mother and fights with her often because her mother is the one person who will call her on the lies and deceptions. She's always challenged her, encouraged her to try therapy, possibly tried to get her help. But if the ill person doesn't want to be helped, if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

And I think this is why CA has protected KC the way she has. She knows KC is a psychopath or whatever her diagnosis might be. She protects her because she knows KC can't help the way she is. I won't be one bit surprised if the defense tries to pull an insanity plea.

Dr. Pennypacker
01-16-2009, 10:14 AM
ITA.

I was raised by a mentally ill parent and I'm hypersensitive to both the symptoms as well as the reactions from others. When I watch those jailhouse visits I see myself in Cindy. When she asks KC to look at her eyes while talking and says, "You know I need you to do that, honey." And notice that KC bursts into tears when her mother asks her to do that.

This is a mother who knows her daughter's illness. When she asks KC, "Are we gonna see her again ya think, Case?" And KC says, "I hope to God that we do." CA pleads with KC in a hopeless tone of voice, "Casey." Because she knows her daughter isn't being honest. In her tone of voice I hear myself pleading with my mentally ill person to open up and tell me what's going on in their head. Watch the video and imagine yourself as CA, knowing your daughter is lying and just wishing she could tell the truth.

Casey doesn't get along with her mother and fights with her often because her mother is the one person who will call her on the lies and deceptions. She's always challenged her, encouraged her to try therapy, possibly tried to get her help. But if the ill person doesn't want to be helped, if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

And I think this is why CA has protected KC the way she has. She knows KC is a psychopath or whatever her diagnosis might be. She protects her because she knows KC can't help the way she is. I won't be one bit surprised if the defense tries to pull an insanity plea.
It's their only hope.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 10:25 AM
I saw in the August 14 video, Cindy manipulating emotions to make Casey see how the situation was affecting HER, in an attempt to get Casey to relieve CINDY'S distress. "we're all sick"........well, little miss thang had a response to that "I'm getting sick, too." Neither parent commented about it. They all ignore what's going on for the other. "We're sick." Nothing. "I'm sick." Nothing. Everyone wants their own needs met.

I don't think this is necessarily what's going on here. Cindy knows Casey only thinks about herself. She is merely trying to force Casey to think about someone besides herself for a moment. She's trying so hard to help Casey see how her behavior affects the people around her. C & G don't comment about Casey's self-centered remark because they know IT'S NO USE. You can't make an irrational person think rationally.

maryaok
01-16-2009, 10:32 AM
if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

You got it. My experience with a pathological liar ex boyfriend (who ruined my life and his wife's and his bio children's lives with his lies) is they will never ever ever admit they need help or go for help. Neither borderline paranoid personality disorder, which is what my father has. With him, everyone else is wrong and in need of help.

It's amazing I'm just fine and so many people need help out there to see how they need help. We should help them.:)

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 10:39 AM
I saw in the August 14 video, Cindy manipulating emotions to make Casey see how the situation was affecting HER, in an attempt to get Casey to relieve CINDY'S distress. "we're all sick"........well, little miss thang had a response to that "I'm getting sick, too." Neither parent commented about it. They all ignore what's going on for the other. "We're sick." Nothing. "I'm sick." Nothing. Everyone wants their own needs met.

It was eerie to me to see that moments before this calm cool collected George sat down in front of his "sweetheart" he was screaming and swearing at the media outside the jail. They were asking questions about Caylee. They said they had heard that Caylee was dead. George started screaming when pushed to answer questions about that. Casey starts screaming when pushed to answer questions about Caylee.

At the same time, there's a defiant Cindy insisting that just the night before she'd gotten a tip from a woman who was too scared to come forward before then because of all the negative media coverage and that they better friggin get their facts straight, only to enter the jail and become this weepy emotional wreck of a person.

Here's a tree.......there's the apple.


yup!!

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 10:42 AM
I don't think this is necessarily what's going on here. Cindy knows Casey only thinks about herself. She is merely trying to force Casey to think about someone besides herself for a moment. She's trying so hard to help Casey see how her behavior affects the people around her. C & G don't comment about Casey's self-centered remark because they know IT'S NO USE. You can't make an irrational person think rationally.
Yes, IMO they know that Casey is just claiming she's getting sick to get sympathy and turn her parents' attention away from asking questions. They don't take the bait but are still on pins and needles trying to get information without making her so mad that she hangs up. That's what I see anyway. But there is something weird about GA. CA is more obvious in her mood swings and on-camera demands to the public but some people seem to excuse GA and let him off the hook for the dysfunction in the family. IMO he's right in the thick of things. I can't figure out what his game is but something is there IMO.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 10:42 AM
if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

You got it. My experience with a pathological liar ex boyfriend (who ruined my life and his wife's and his bio children's lives with his lies) is they will never ever ever admit they need help or go for help. Neither borderline paranoid personality disorder, which is what my father has. With him, everyone else is wrong and in need of help.

It's amazing I'm just fine and so many people need help out there to see how they need help. We should help them.:)

My mentally ill parent has a paranoia disorder, too. Everyone is a suspect. Everyone is out to get them. No one is to be trusted, even your own spouse, children, friends. It's harder for the family than it is for the patient. When I talked to a therapist about it and asked her how to help my parent get well, the therapist said, "You can't. The best thing you can do is get therapy for yourself to help you learn how to cope with a mentally ill loved one." It took 30+ years but I've learned to hate the disease, not the person.

My sister and I also thank our lucky stars we didn't inherit it.

All of this is why GA and especially CA don't push KC too hard for information. They know that if they get angry with her, KC will shut them out completely and not talk to them at all. In fact, that may just be what happened after the August jail visit we are all watching now.

Btw, KC's behavior fits with schizophrenia and/or bipolar. Sexual promiscuity, extravagant spending habits, delusions (i.e. believing her own lies), distrust of authority and those who are genuinely trying to help, the list goes on...can't hold down a job for long, can't keep friends, failed relationships...

elissabee
01-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Yes, IMO they know that Casey is just claiming she's getting sick to get sympathy and turn her parents' attention away from asking questions. They don't take the bait but are still on pins and needles trying to get information without making her so mad that she hangs up. That's what I see anyway. But there is something weird about GA. CA is more obvious in her mood swings and on-camera demands to the public but some people seem to excuse GA and let him off the hook for the dysfunction in the family. IMO he's right in the thick of things. I can't figure out what his game is but something is there IMO.

KC inherited her disorder from GA. He gets off the hook because he can't help the way he is, either. Read the emails between CA, her mother and brother. CA's mother or brother (I can't remember now) says something to the effect of, "Cindy always said there was a sickness in George's family. George has it. Casey has it, too." Bipolar and schizophrenia are hereditary and I do believe George and Casey have one or the other of those disorders.

eta: Maybe George is medicated. The meds used to control the mood swings involved in psychoaffective disorders generally make the patient very "even." He may be taking Lithium or some other drug that keeps him in check.

Georgia101957
01-16-2009, 10:52 AM
KC inherited her disorder from GA. He gets off the hook because he can't help the way he is, either. Read the emails between CA, her mother and brother. CA's mother or brother (I can't remember now) says something to the effect of, "Cindy always said there was a sickness in George's family. George has it. Casey has it, too." Bipolar and schizophrenia are hereditary and I do believe George and Casey have one or the other of those disorders.

eta: Maybe George is medicated. The meds used to control the mood swings involved in psychoaffective disorders generally make the patient very "even." He may be taking Lithium or some other drug that keeps him in check.

That is a very interesting theory. I think I need to go back and read those documents again. It's gone on so long now that I feel I need a refresher course! :doh:

Clock's Tickin
01-16-2009, 11:00 AM
I believe the opposite! I think CA has the line of need and reflects it to GA to "throw the dogs off the scent". IMO GA's behaviors are that of a person who has lived, and learned to cope, with people who are impaired for a long long time. The genetic predisposition for a lot of these disorders are hereditary, but on top of that a child is then raised by the person who carried that genetic marker. I am by no means excusing KC's behavior, millions of people live with these disorders and commit no crimes, but when you look at how these circumstances fell together the family dynamic definitely comes into play. A person with KC's obvious (and yes-they are obvious not only to experts who have gone on record in this case, but also to anyone who has had encounters with people like KC) psychiatric condition will most likely never be able to help put this case to rest without years of therapy. Does she deserve the worst punishment the court can hand down?-of course she does. Is she responsible for her actions? Of course she is. And Yes, the tragedy would have certainly been averted if the child did not live in this household. That said, this was not the case for Caylee and tragedy can happen anywhere, at any time, to anyone.

debs
01-16-2009, 11:05 AM
I don't think this is necessarily what's going on here. Cindy knows Casey only thinks about herself. She is merely trying to force Casey to think about someone besides herself for a moment. She's trying so hard to help Casey see how her behavior affects the people around her. C & G don't comment about Casey's self-centered remark because they know IT'S NO USE. You can't make an irrational person think rationally.

It is a danse macabre they have danced repeatedly throughout their enmeshed relationship. Cindy and George knew exactly what would happen if they used the "we're suffering" line. It's gone on before.

Casey does something bad
There is a fight with Cindy because she's the one who always handles the first round
Casey plays victim, how mean they're being to her
Cindy goes on the attack, George attempts to placate, and Lee just wants answers.
Casey verbally beats down and then ignores Cindy who has gone into suffering martyrdom, shuts down Lee and sucks up to George because he'll be the most passive path to getting what she wants.
Casey gets what she wants

and the cycle goes on.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:11 AM
ITA.

I was raised by a mentally ill parent and I'm hypersensitive to both the symptoms as well as the reactions from others. When I watch those jailhouse visits I see myself in Cindy. When she asks KC to look at her eyes while talking and says, "You know I need you to do that, honey." And notice that KC bursts into tears when her mother asks her to do that.

This is a mother who knows her daughter's illness. When she asks KC, "Are we gonna see her again ya think, Case?" And KC says, "I hope to God that we do." CA pleads with KC in a hopeless tone of voice, "Casey." Because she knows her daughter isn't being honest. In her tone of voice I hear myself pleading with my mentally ill person to open up and tell me what's going on in their head. Watch the video and imagine yourself as CA, knowing your daughter is lying and just wishing she could tell the truth.

Casey doesn't get along with her mother and fights with her often because her mother is the one person who will call her on the lies and deceptions. She's always challenged her, encouraged her to try therapy, possibly tried to get her help. But if the ill person doesn't want to be helped, if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

And I think this is why CA has protected KC the way she has. She knows KC is a psychopath or whatever her diagnosis might be. She protects her because she knows KC can't help the way she is. I won't be one bit surprised if the defense tries to pull an insanity plea.

Their dysfunction created that monster! Cindy taught her everything she knows! How can you say Cindy "calls her on her lies and deceptions" when we know that is NOT the case? That's a big part of the problem here- nobody ever called her on *****... they lied for her, covered it up, took money out of their bank account to cover the money she stole from her grandparents.. They did NOTHING when she stole $4,000 of theirs and claimed she was robbed with a gun to her head.

They knew she didn't have a job (they both admitted they "had a feeling"- yeah like George's feeling there was a dead body in the car) for the last 2 years yet they let her carry on as if she did, pretending right along with her (just as they are pretending right along with her that Caylee was kidnapped by ZG)! She ran up the cell phone bills, stole money from Lee and his friends. Nobody did anything- nobody called her on it, nobody was a parent to that girl- EVER!! They just let her do as she wished then called her names and belittled her as they covered for her. Even in that video Cindy continues to invalidate everything Casey says she feels (though I agree with her that Casey's lying- It is a good example of how Casey is TOLD what she is feeling. and we know it's not new behavior for Cindy because while Casey was clearly frustrated she even says that is why she didn't want to talk to her mother)

Nope- sorry, I understand way too much about mothers like Cindy... She taught her daughter how to behave not only by example but by doing nothing about Casey's behavior all these years. Cindy is just as sick if not sicker than Casey but I assure you, both CHOOSE their behaviors and neither one of them are even close to being insane. No way an insanity defense will even make it into the courtroom!

MO

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:20 AM
KC inherited her disorder from GA. He gets off the hook because he can't help the way he is, either. Read the emails between CA, her mother and brother. CA's mother or brother (I can't remember now) says something to the effect of, "Cindy always said there was a sickness in George's family. George has it. Casey has it, too." Bipolar and schizophrenia are hereditary and I do believe George and Casey have one or the other of those disorders.

eta: Maybe George is medicated. The meds used to control the mood swings involved in psychoaffective disorders generally make the patient very "even." He may be taking Lithium or some other drug that keeps him in check.

The emails did not say "George has it". They brought up that Bipolar is on George's side of the family and maybe that's whats wrong with Casey. But anyone who knows anything about Bipolar knows that is not what Casey OR George's problems are (every therapist, Psychiatrist, mental health worker who has been on TV and here in this very thread, Russell, all say the same thing- personality disorder) I think it's not so good an idea to take an obvious Axis II personality disorder and attempt to mold it and shape it to fit an Axis I MOOD disorder. It's not right and it sure doesn't help with the already awful stigma attached to Bipolar AND schizophrenia. And FYI- They most certainly can "help the way they are"!!

We have done this all already- why are going through it again?!

elissabee
01-16-2009, 11:27 AM
Their dysfunction created that monster! Cindy taught her everything she knows! How can you say Cindy "calls her on her lies and deceptions" when we know that is NOT the case? That's a big part of the problem here- nobody ever called her on *****... they lied for her, covered it up, took money out of their bank account to cover the money she stole from her grandparents.. They did NOTHING when she stole $4,000 of theirs and claimed she was robbed with a gun to her head.

They knew she didn't have a job (they both admitted they "had a feeling"- yeah like George's feeling there was a dead body in the car) for the last 2 years yet they let her carry on as if she did, pretending right along with her (just as they are pretending right along with her that Caylee was kidnapped by ZG)! She ran up the cell phone bills, stole money from Lee and his friends. Nobody did anything- nobody called her on it, nobody was a parent to that girl- EVER!! They just let her do as she wished then called her names and belittled her as they covered for her. Even in that video Cindy continues to invalidate everything Casey says she feels (though I agree with her that Casey's lying- It is a good example of how Casey is TOLD what she is feeling. and we know it's not new behavior for Cindy because while Casey was clearly frustrated she even says that is why she didn't want to talk to her mother)

Nope- sorry, I understand way too much about mothers like Cindy... She taught her daughter how to behave not only by example but by doing nothing about Casey's behavior all these years. Cindy is just as sick if not sicker than Casey but I assure you, both CHOOSE their behaviors and neither one of them are even close to being insane. No way an insanity defense will even make it into the courtroom!

MO

Have you ever lived with a schizophrenic? My opinion is based on experience. All I'm saying is I can totally see how mental illness in that family could have led to the behavior of everyone in that house. All of the burden was on Cindy to try and keep the family together. With 2 mentally ill people (KC and GA) in the house I can only imagine how much harder it was for Cindy. Lee probably couldn't deal at all and that's why he seems sort of detached and is not close to his father.

Like I said in another post, if a mentally ill person doesn't want help or believe there's anything wrong with them, all the family can do is get by the best they can. My family has been doing just that for 30+ years.

June 2008 could very well have been KC's first real "breakdown." Psychoaffective disorders are cyclical, and the patient suffers an "attack" where they have a break with reality. KC is 22 years old, an age where a disorder like this would be diagnosed. She may have been lying for years and behaving strangely, but it was all coming to a head in June.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 11:31 AM
The emails did not say "George has it". They brought up that Bipolar is on George's side of the family and maybe that's whats wrong with Casey. But anyone who knows anything about Bipolar knows that is not what Casey OR George's problems are. I think it's not so good an idea to take an obvious Axis II personality disorder and attempt to mold it and shape it to fit an Axis I MOOD disorder.

I apologize if my language is not clinically correct. I am not familiar with the clinical terms. I am basing my opinion on my experiences with a schizophrenic parent. Casey's behaviors are similar to the ones I've seen at home, and so are the behaviors of the As. They are not unlike the coping mechanisms my family has used to get through the hard times.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:33 AM
Yes, IMO they know that Casey is just claiming she's getting sick to get sympathy and turn her parents' attention away from asking questions. They don't take the bait but are still on pins and needles trying to get information without making her so mad that she hangs up. That's what I see anyway. But there is something weird about GA. CA is more obvious in her mood swings and on-camera demands to the public but some people seem to excuse GA and let him off the hook for the dysfunction in the family. IMO he's right in the thick of things. I can't figure out what his game is but something is there IMO.

Yeah, he's a doormat. IMO

radio
01-16-2009, 11:44 AM
I apologize if my language is not clinically correct. I am not familiar with the clinical terms. I am basing my opinion on my experiences with a schizophrenic parent. Casey's behaviors are similar to the ones I've seen at home, and so are the behaviors of the As. They are not unlike the coping mechanisms my family has used to get through the hard times.

Every family is different. Every family reacts differently to the behaviors. jmo

Yes, much is the same, but every family unit is comprised of different people/personalities, thresholds, etc. jmo

elissabee
01-16-2009, 11:47 AM
We have done this all already- why are going through it again?!

Apologies again, as I've only been here a short time. I see you have over 7,000 posts. I'm just trying to be part of the conversation here. I guess I have some catching up to do...

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 11:48 AM
Yeah, he's a doormat. IMO

I don't see only a doormat. He's very strange. He is probably trying to placate CA because of how he messed up the finances, but I also think he's just very weird. I don't think he is bipolar or even necessarily has a personality disorder. He's just very weird. I thought he was very weird in those videos where he's talking about how "someone" has Caylee and are being watched. I'm sure part of it was that he really wanted it to be true and be able to get her back, but I think he likes to feel like he is big stuff or something. IMO. Also the fact that he would fall for the Nigerian scam (I know a lot of other people have also) and possibly getting explosively angry enough to push his father through a plate glass window, coupled with how explosively angry he gets at protesters and the media (though I can understand that to some degree). I think calling him a "doormat" makes him sound passive and mild when he's really anything but. He just knows what side his bread is buttered on (Cindy) IMO.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:50 AM
Have you ever lived with a schizophrenic? My opinion is based on experience. All I'm saying is I can totally see how mental illness in that family could have led to the behavior of everyone in that house. All of the burden was on Cindy to try and keep the family together. With 2 mentally ill people (KC and GA) in the house I can only imagine how much harder it was for Cindy. Lee probably couldn't deal at all and that's why he seems sort of detached and is not close to his father.

Like I said in another post, if a mentally ill person doesn't want help or believe there's anything wrong with them, all the family can do is get by the best they can. My family has been doing just that for 30+ years.

June 2008 could very well have been KC's first real "breakdown." Psychoaffective disorders are cyclical, and the patient suffers an "attack" where they have a break with reality. KC is 22 years old, an age where a disorder like this would be diagnosed. She may have been lying for years and behaving strangely, but it was all coming to a head in June.

I have Bipolar disorder, I have lived with my own psychosis. I also come from a personality disordered home.

What Casey "had" was no break from reality. She is a manipulative, lying, sneaking personality disordered person doing what they do best.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 11:55 AM
Apologies again, as I've only been here a short time. I see you have over 7,000 posts. I'm just trying to be part of the conversation here. I guess I have some catching up to do...

Quoting myself.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't see only a doormat. He's very strange. He is probably trying to placate CA because of how he messed up the finances, but I also think he's just very weird. I don't think he is bipolar or even necessarily has a personality disorder. He's just very weird. I thought he was very weird in those videos where he's talking about how "someone" has Caylee and are being watched. I'm sure part of it was that he really wanted it to be true and be able to get her back, but I think he likes to feel like he is big stuff or something.

Well, that's kinda how I meant it. At home, with his family he is a doormat so when he is away from them he tries to make it seem, to outsiders that he is a big deal... make himself feel better but then when faced with one of his family members he's just "poor George" again. Did you see his reaction to Lee coming to the police station when George was already there but he didn't want Lee to know he went there without him or Cindy? Dude started to vomit!

I totally agree that he is odd..

ETA- I see you added to your post... It's only logical that someone who is treated the way he is by his family (they all make fun of him!) that he'd blow up once in awhile (If I was married to that B!tch I think I'd be in jail!!). He sure does get mad but it seems he takes quite a bit of ***** before finally blowing up!

Dr. Pennypacker
01-16-2009, 11:56 AM
I don't see only a doormat. He's very strange. He is probably trying to placate CA because of how he messed up the finances, but I also think he's just very weird. I don't think he is bipolar or even necessarily has a personality disorder. He's just very weird. I thought he was very weird in those videos where he's talking about how "someone" has Caylee and are being watched. I'm sure part of it was that he really wanted it to be true and be able to get her back, but I think he likes to feel like he is big stuff or something. IMO. Also the fact that he would fall for the Nigerian scam (I know a lot of other people have also) and possibly getting explosively angry enough to push his father through a plate glass window, coupled with how explosively angry he gets at protesters and the media (though I can understand that to some degree). I think calling him a "doormat" makes him sound passive and mild when he's really anything but. He just knows what side his bread is buttered on (Cindy) IMO.

He doses have a temper. Casey may have inhireted that trait also.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:59 AM
Quoting myself.

I am just so sick of people saying "She's got Bipolar" or that she's psychotic when she clearly isn't. It's like every couple of weeks we go through this, providing links etc to show that neither are the case.

I didn't mean to jump on you, I'm sorry! :blowkiss:

radio
01-16-2009, 12:02 PM
I am just so sick of people saying "She's got Bipolar" or that she's psychotic when she clearly isn't. It's like every couple of weeks we go through this, providing links etc to show that neither are the case.

I didn't mean to jump on you, I'm sorry! :blowkiss:

Casey's childhood????
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/benzo_13/bipolarchild.jpg

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 12:09 PM
He doses have a temper. Casey may have inhireted that trait also.

My guess is it's learned behavior like much of what Casey's behaviors are. If ya lie, steal, cheat, and generally treat others badly your kids will pick up on that.. not to mention Casey probably already had the predisposition for a personality disorder so she got a double whammy, ya know?

Dr. Pennypacker
01-16-2009, 12:14 PM
My guess is it's learned behavior like much of what Casey's behaviors are. If ya lie, steal, cheat, and generally treat others badly your kids will pick up on that.. not to mention Casey probably already had the predisposition for a personality disorder so she got a double whammy, ya know?
yep

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=39588&dateline=1232078803 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=39588)
between what was inhirited and what was learned and reinforced.....YIKES!!!

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 12:18 PM
Every family is different. Every family reacts differently to the behaviors. jmo

Yes, much is the same, but every family unit is comprised of different people/personalities, thresholds, etc. jmo

See, I don't see them as the same in any way other than her having a couple of the same traits as Bipolar (moods, sleeping around, shopping, partying) but nothing else about the illnesses even match up. People with these disorders deal with delusions, hallucinations, depression, suicidal ideation.. they are in a fight for their LIFE.. People with personality disorders are in a fight for control.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 12:19 PM
yep

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=39588&dateline=1232078803 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=39588)
between what was inhirited and what was learned and reinforced.....YIKES!!!

I agree.. Scary chit!

radio
01-16-2009, 12:25 PM
See, I don't see them as the same in any way other than her having a couple of the same traits as Bipolar (moods, sleeping around, shopping, partying) but nothing else about the illnesses even match up. People with these disorders deal with delusions, hallucinations, depression, suicidal ideation.. they are in a fight for their LIFE.. People with personality disorders are in a fight for control.


What I was saying was that each member in a family unit is different from any member of another family unit..... different children, spouses....that kind of stuff and with different personalities comes different reactions, etc.

One family may cope one way. Another family another way and then children within the same unit can each react in different ways. So the dynamic is always changing. The individual with the disorder will even react to the disorder somewhat and sometimes in some ways like the way they are being reacted to - which can be a myraid of reactions lol.

I am speaking to family structure more than the individual I guess.

indicat
01-16-2009, 12:28 PM
What a lot of people see in Cindy as a caretaker, supporting the whole family, that all comes at a cost. She does not do these things out of the kindness of her heart, it comes across that way but in reality it is all about ownership and manipulation. There are strings attatched to everything she does for you. I know people like this and to outsiders it looks like they are just great people, taking everything on, the reality is so much different.

radio
01-16-2009, 12:32 PM
What a lot of people see in Cindy as a caretaker, supporting the whole family, that all comes at a cost. She does not do these things out of the kindness of her heart, it comes across that way but in reality it is all about ownership and manipulation. There are strings attatched to everything she does for you. I know people like this and to outsiders it looks like they are just great people, taking everything on, the reality is so much different.

The joy or curse of each family lies within the leadership from within that it has.

If Cindy is as you all think .... then the result is what it is.

I see these people to be only as sick as their secrets. Whatever they may be.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 12:32 PM
I agree.. Scary chit!

I don't understand all the hoopla over her faces & anguish in the tape. I know plenty of people who have tempers & make faces/fists over getting their point across, expressing their frustrations........And, they certainly aren't capable of murder!

Who among us does not know people who literally have put their fist thru a wall or something similar, under extreme circumstances? I just don't feel this is relative to her "instantly" being guilty?

It's the quiet ones that don't show emotions, that frighten me....the passive aggressive ones!:eek:

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 12:34 PM
ITA.

I was raised by a mentally ill parent and I'm hypersensitive to both the symptoms as well as the reactions from others. When I watch those jailhouse visits I see myself in Cindy. When she asks KC to look at her eyes while talking and says, "You know I need you to do that, honey." And notice that KC bursts into tears when her mother asks her to do that.
:boohoo:
This is a mother who knows her daughter's illness. When she asks KC, "Are we gonna see her again ya think, Case?" And KC says, "I hope to God that we do." CA pleads with KC in a hopeless tone of voice, "Casey." Because she knows her daughter isn't being honest. In her tone of voice I hear myself pleading with my mentally ill person to open up and tell me what's going on in their head. Watch the video and imagine yourself as CA, knowing your daughter is lying and just wishing she could tell the truth.
:shakehead:
Casey doesn't get along with her mother and fights with her often because her mother is the one person who will call her on the lies and deceptions. She's always challenged her, encouraged her to try therapy, possibly tried to get her help. But if the ill person doesn't want to be helped, if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.
:confused:
And I think this is why CA has protected KC the way she has. She knows KC is a psychopath or whatever her diagnosis might be. She protects her because she knows KC can't help the way she is. I won't be one bit surprised if the defense tries to pull an insanity plea.

(bold mine) I agree w you that CA is by this point reduced to pleading w her deceptive, blameshifting, self-centered daughter in utter desperation for any useful info, knowing as you say that KC is lying yet walking on eggshells while grasping for any shred of hope. Her only fear greater than altogether infuriating and losing contact w KC at that moment had to be her fear of actually learning the truth. Despite recognizing the narcissistic generational pattern of their sick relationship, it's never been hard at all for me to identify w CA--if anything I overidentify since I have a daughter and granddaughter the same ages. Where your interpretation and mine differ is that I can't quite perceive CA as simply another of KC's blameless, helpless victims. While I'm certain she never dreamed the cost of all those years of enablement or permissiveness would be so high, in a very real sense she is by definition also reaping--the bad fruit and bitter harvest of those failures--and reaping bigtime. I agree CA seems at least more willing than GA to endure KC's volatility and remains focused. But the tragic reality is that CA has never in 22 years ever before been willing to truly "challenge," to confront or hold her daughter accountable. Any more than she ever sought any type of help that we're aware of. And I agree that CA has also tried to protect her daughter but sacrificing your innocent grandchild--her location if not conceivably at that point her life--for your culpable child isn't sympathetic to me and can't even be excused as denial--but rather is more collusion and failure still on their part to ever hold KC accountable. Whether KC is evil and a psychopath, or sick and mentally ill, remains unanswered (a distinction in this case, and subject of generally great interest to me), but it can be only one--or the other. JMHUO

Yes, Nancy....you are good. Thanks for the PICS. Good work... WoW!.

Same pathologies..you will see similar traits.

The only difference with these two is SP is educated, brighter and was able to have a plan with his crime. KC lives in the moment, can't plan well and does not have the IQ of Scott. Otherwise, their are alike. Both have adoring mothers who fight to the finish. Fathers take a back seat. Lee did not even go to courtroom for sentencing.

So far, Cindy seems to have a lot more issues than Jackie. We didn't get to know Jackie, though, like we got to know Cindy. I did have an opportunity to speak with Jackie once. She was gracious and very kind. Cindy is a little rough (?) around the edges...uhm. :whistle:

(bold mine) While less educated, I don't believe KC is unintelligent. And I'm not convinced she is quite in SP's league or even the same category IMO. There's no question we're obviously looking at two deceptive people w phony smiles. What I also find significant is that narcissism is shown to be the "common denominator" among all the personality disorders (and could be the ever-present trait that is responsible for their similar image-conscious courtroom demeanors or which allows these two to resemble one another, we are looking at two clearly forced or painted on smiles, but other than that reveals little about their respective diagnoses or pathologies. Certainly though most here have already come to similarly label or attribute motive). Btw it's very surprising to hear your impression of JP who's always given me chills, whereas CA just irritates me. JMHUO

radio
01-16-2009, 12:44 PM
Not everyone from a disordered parent suffers. Sometimes some of the best of you actually comes from that parent and with the help of the other parent and family ... you do great.

I'm a little hyper. :D

But I haven't hit the secret manic button yet for the launch.

I have always been very proud of my mother. I'm sure that is due to the great work my father, maternal grandmother and paternal aunt and uncle did.

radio
01-16-2009, 12:52 PM
I don't understand all the hoopla over her faces & anguish in the tape. I know plenty of people who have tempers & make faces/fists over getting their point across, expressing their frustrations........And, they certainly aren't capable of murder!

Who among us does not know people who literally have put their fist thru a wall or something similar, under extreme circumstances? I just don't feel this is relative to her "instantly" being guilty?

It's the quiet ones that don't show emotions, that frighten me....the passive aggressive ones!:eek:

ree,

I agree with why all the hoopla!! Anyone of us put into frames could look the same - happy, sad, irritated, mad ...pffftt

Apparently this was a ship without a rudder. jmo

indicat
01-16-2009, 12:53 PM
Casey doesn't get along with her mother and fights with her often because her mother is the one person who will call her on the lies and deceptions. She's always challenged her, encouraged her to try therapy, possibly tried to get her help. But if the ill person doesn't want to be helped, if the ill person doesn't believe there's anything wrong with them, anyone who keeps telling them they need help goes on the $hit list.

And I think this is why CA has protected KC the way she has. She knows KC is a psychopath or whatever her diagnosis might be. She protects her because she knows KC can't help the way she is. I won't be one bit surprised if the defense tries to pull an insanity plea.

See I completly disagree with this. CA does not call KC out on anything, and she has not helped her at all she has enabled her. I see people refer back to the first phone call from the jail when KC says you dont know what my involvement is? as a way to clue CA in, well it was a clue a clue to put CA back in her place and feel the guilt, and guess what, it worked. I have seen numerous times after the initial 911 call for CA to call KC out on her lies and she goes the other way. There are some really good posts on this topic in this thread. They describe CA's personality to a T.

debs
01-16-2009, 12:57 PM
yep

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=39588&dateline=1232078803 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=39588)
between what was inhirited and what was learned and reinforced.....YIKES!!!

A frustrated and angry Casey (above), an angry and frustrated George, Casey seconds later (still yelling at her parents), and George seconds later (hosing down protesters).

radio
01-16-2009, 12:58 PM
See I completly disagree with this. CA does not call KC out on anything, and she has not helped her at all she has enabled her. I see people refer back to the first phone call from the jail when KC says you dont know what my involvement is? as a way to clue CA in, well it was a clue a clue to put CA back in her place and feel the guilt, and guess what, it worked. I have seen numerous times after the initial 911 call for CA to call KC out on her lies and she goes the other way. There are some really good posts on this topic in this thread. They describe CA's personality to a T.

And having described CA's personality to a T - where does this take us? It is extremely interesting to discuss to be sure. And many wonderful posts have been written here. Much has been learned here and if nothing else - it has been a wonderful teacher and possibly a pretty darn good therapist for many too. Excellent teachers here for sure. :thumb:

indicat
01-16-2009, 12:59 PM
I don't understand all the hoopla over her faces & anguish in the tape. I know plenty of people who have tempers & make faces/fists over getting their point across, expressing their frustrations........And, they certainly aren't capable of murder!

Who among us does not know people who literally have put their fist thru a wall or something similar, under extreme circumstances? I just don't feel this is relative to her "instantly" being guilty?

It's the quiet ones that don't show emotions, that frighten me....the passive aggressive ones!:eek:

Except none of us have missing children, her anger is so misdirected given the circumstances. Other people have posted a lot better then I about this, but in her case (which is not a normal case) her expressions of emotion are peculiar.

indicat
01-16-2009, 01:00 PM
And having described CA's personality to a T - where does this take us? It is extremely interesting to discuss to be sure. And many wonderful posts have been written here. Much has been learned here and if nothing else - it has been a wonderful teacher and possibly a pretty darn good therapist for many too. Excellent teachers here for sure. :thumb:

In my opinion it helps us to spot this behavior in our own lives, and is great topic for psychology books. And everything else you mentioned.

radio
01-16-2009, 01:03 PM
In my opinion it helps us to spot this behavior in our own lives, and is great topic for psychology books.

Yeah - I agree with that big time. Thats why I posted this thread is an excellent teacher and probably a pretty darn good therapist for many.

This is a good thing - just think how many people in this world have no idea they can be helped. maybe they read the excellent posts and response posts here and a light bulb goes off for them!!!
:blowkiss:

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Yes, IMO they know that Casey is just claiming she's getting sick to get sympathy and turn her parents' attention away from asking questions. They don't take the bait but are still on pins and needles trying to get information without making her so mad that she hangs up. That's what I see anyway. But there is something weird about GA. CA is more obvious in her mood swings and on-camera demands to the public but some people seem to excuse GA and let him off the hook for the dysfunction in the family. IMO he's right in the thick of things. I can't figure out what his game is but something is there IMO.

It's simple. KC becomes volatile and reacts w anger to bully her parents when she wants to shut them up and keep CA from asking the tough questions. JMO

It is a danse macabre they have danced repeatedly throughout their enmeshed relationship. Cindy and George knew exactly what would happen if they used the "we're suffering" line. It's gone on before.

Casey does something bad
There is a fight with Cindy because she's the one who always handles the first round
Casey plays victim, how mean they're being to her
Cindy goes on the attack, George attempts to placate, and Lee just wants answers.
Casey verbally beats down and then ignores Cindy who has gone into suffering martyrdom, shuts down Lee and sucks up to George because he'll be the most passive path to getting what she wants.
Casey gets what she wants

and the cycle goes on.

(bold mine) Emphasis on, "KC gets what she wants!"

Their dysfunction created that monster! Cindy taught her everything she knows! How can you say Cindy "calls her on her lies and deceptions" when we know that is NOT the case? That's a big part of the problem here- nobody ever called her on *****... they lied for her, covered it up, took money out of their bank account to cover the money she stole from her grandparents.. They did NOTHING when she stole $4,000 of theirs and claimed she was robbed with a gun to her head.

They knew she didn't have a job (they both admitted they "had a feeling"- yeah like George's feeling there was a dead body in the car) for the last 2 years yet they let her carry on as if she did, pretending right along with her (just as they are pretending right along with her that Caylee was kidnapped by ZG)! She ran up the cell phone bills, stole money from Lee and his friends. Nobody did anything- nobody called her on it, nobody was a parent to that girl- EVER!! They just let her do as she wished then called her names and belittled her as they covered for her. Even in that video Cindy continues to invalidate everything Casey says she feels (though I agree with her that Casey's lying- It is a good example of how Casey is TOLD what she is feeling. and we know it's not new behavior for Cindy because while Casey was clearly frustrated she even says that is why she didn't want to talk to her mother)

Nope- sorry, I understand way too much about mothers like Cindy... She taught her daughter how to behave not only by example but by doing nothing about Casey's behavior all these years. Cindy is just as sick if not sicker than Casey but I assure you, both CHOOSE their behaviors and neither one of them are even close to being insane. No way an insanity defense will even make it into the courtroom!

Say that One... one more time lol.

Have you ever lived with a schizophrenic? My opinion is based on experience. All I'm saying is I can totally see how mental illness in that family could have led to the behavior of everyone in that house. All of the burden was on Cindy to try and keep the family together. With 2 mentally ill people (KC and GA) in the house I can only imagine how much harder it was for Cindy. Lee probably couldn't deal at all and that's why he seems sort of detached and is not close to his father.

Like I said in another post, if a mentally ill person doesn't want help or believe there's anything wrong with them, all the family can do is get by the best they can. My family has been doing just that for 30+ years.

June 2008 could very well have been KC's first real "breakdown." Psychoaffective disorders are cyclical, and the patient suffers an "attack" where they have a break with reality. KC is 22 years old, an age where a disorder like this would be diagnosed. She may have been lying for years and behaving strangely, but it was all coming to a head in June.

(bold mine) We can't just give everyone a pass here! And what is GA's "mental illness?" Omg he's the only one who has a prayer! JMO

ree,

I agree with why all the hoopla!! Anyone of us put into frames could look the same - happy, sad, irritated, mad ...pffftt

Apparently this was a ship without a rudder. jmo

(bold mine) Agree 100% w bolded. Lolol!

See I completly disagree with this. CA does not call KC out on anything, and she has not helped her at all she has enabled her. I see people refer back to the first phone call from the jail when KC says you dont know what my involvement is? as a way to clue CA in, well it was a clue a clue to put CA back in her place and feel the guilt, and guess what, it worked. I have seen numerous times after the initial 911 call for CA to call KC out on her lies and she goes the other way. There are some really good posts on this topic in this thread. They describe CA's personality to a T.

Amen. And amen! JMO2!!

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 01:28 PM
And having described CA's personality to a T - where does this take us? It is extremely interesting to discuss to be sure. And many wonderful posts have been written here. Much has been learned here and if nothing else - it has been a wonderful teacher and possibly a pretty darn good therapist for many too. Excellent teachers here for sure. :thumb:

Well, at the very least one can hope it might begin to dispel the myth that those like KC were all simply "born that way....."
(Where's a lightbulb icon when you need it lol?) JMO!

radio
01-16-2009, 01:35 PM
Well, at the very least one can hope it might begin to dispel the myth that those like KC were all simply "born that way....."
(Where's a lightbulb icon when you need it lol?) JMO!

Lets hope so.
:sleuth:
:wave:

Theonly1
01-16-2009, 01:41 PM
[(bold mine) We can't just give everyone a pass here! And what is GA's "mental illness?" JMO

!![/COLOR]

Conspicuous consumption of A Family Kool-Aid?

debs
01-16-2009, 01:43 PM
And lest we forget, because afterall it IS all about Casey: Whatever the sick dynamic between George and Cindy, whatever personality twists they bring to their daughter, what Casey does to compensate, to get through it, to adjust, to cope is diabolical, destructive, poisonous. Whether she ever thought it was going to be her goal or not, she is successfully destroying the foundation from whence she came.

ETA: I think she got a lot frustrated at her folks for not seeing to what level she had to go in order to accomplish this goal. In my head, I could imagine her saying to herself "Holy smokes, folks! What MORE do I have to DO to get through to you?????"

Of course, I often wax hyperbolic.

radio
01-16-2009, 01:55 PM
And lest we forget, because afterall it IS all about Casey: Whatever the sick dynamic between George and Cindy, whatever personality twists they bring to their daughter, what Casey does to compensate, to get through it, to adjust, to cope is diabolical, destructive, poisonous. Whether she ever thought it was going to be her goal or not, she is successfully destroying the foundation from whence she came.

ETA: I think she got a lot frustrated at her folks for not seeing to what level she had to go in order to accomplish this goal. In my head, I could imagine her saying to herself "Holy smokes, folks! What MORE do I have to DO to get through to you?????"

Of course, I often wax hyperbolic. NO!:crazy:

:wave:

This isn't 1750 or the Middle Ages ..... they had choices, resources, etc... yada, yada.

elissabee
01-16-2009, 02:09 PM
(bold mine) We can't just give everyone a pass here! And what is GA's "mental illness?" Omg he's the only one who has a prayer! JMO


I am not giving anybody a pass here. I'm saying within that family, George seems to get a pass. KC would rather talk to George, rather see George, because she can't talk to her mother. Her mother gets angry and defensive, but George is Mr. Cool to Casey. All the blame gets put on Cindy when Casey gets upset.

From reading the emails between Cindy's brother and mother, it sounds like he's had a ton of problems including spending/gambling addiction and he can't hold down a job. Cindy's brother calls him a "loser" and says he ruined his sister's life. Coupled with the supposed "sicknes" in George's family, it sounds like he's a guy not without issues.

Please remember, this is my theory. Everybody's got one, right?

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 02:13 PM
Conspicuous consumption of A Family Kool-Aid?

Guilty as charged! :gavel:

And lest we forget, because afterall it IS all about Casey: Whatever the sick dynamic between George and Cindy, whatever personality twists they bring to their daughter, what Casey does to compensate, to get through it, to adjust, to cope is diabolical, destructive, poisonous. Whether she ever thought it was going to be her goal or not, she is successfully destroying the foundation from whence she came.

ETA: I think she got a lot frustrated at her folks for not seeing to what level she had to go in order to accomplish this goal. In my head, I could imagine her saying to herself "Holy smokes, folks! What MORE do I have to DO to get through to you?????"

Of course, I often wax hyperbolic.

Funny you should say that, thanks for reminding me!! As I sat watching the new jailhouse video observing KC's mounting frustration and aggitation I had the overwhelming sense I was watching a spoilt child whose tantrum was admittedly getting her nowhere--but is also shouting loud and clear essentially, "geesh you two, can't you see I'm spinning these lies and manipulating and doing basically everything you ever taught me, every tactic I've learned that always worked before and the only thing I've ever known to do when I'm up against a wall only for the first time it's not working.... Oy...

:rolleyes:

elissabee
01-16-2009, 02:16 PM
(bold mine) We can't just give everyone a pass here! And what is GA's "mental illness?" Omg he's the only one who has a prayer! JMO


I am not giving anybody a pass here. I thought we were talking about A family dynamics. I'm saying within that family, George seems to get a pass. KC would rather talk to George, rather see George, because she can't talk to her mother. Her mother gets angry and defensive because she's had it up to here dealing with her daughter and husband, but George is Mr. Cool to Casey. All the blame gets put on Cindy when Casey gets upset.

From reading the emails between Cindy's brother and mother, it sounds like he's had a ton of problems including spending/gambling addiction. Cindy's brother calls him a "loser" and says he ruined his sister's life. Coupled with the supposed "sicknes" in George's family, it sounds like he's a guy not without issues.

Please remember, this is my theory. Everybody's got one, right?

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 02:20 PM
It's simple. KC becomes volatile and reacts w anger to bully her parents when she wants to shut them up and keep CA from asking the tough questions. JMO

Yes, I see what she's doing there and how she is trying to control them and they step back so as to maintain contact with her. But I mean just in general something is weird about GA. He is part of this family dynamic also, it wasn't just Cindy's actions that made this whole family this way. He wasn't just a passive creature who just laid there innocently while the rest of the family went off the rails, IMO. Or maybe he has always been this way to try to avoid having to contribute to the family (no steady job, no willingness to do something about Casey before it was too late, falling for the Nigerian scam, etc.). I don't see him contributing anything to the family monetarily or otherwise. He should be doing something. And he has a temper, so he could probably stand up to Cindy if he really wanted to IMO.

By the time Caylee was born, it was too late IMO. Casey was already the way she was and with a baby she had the ultimate key to control her parents. After that they couldn't really do anything with her anymore unless they had called the police whenever she stole money. They needed to nip her in the bud when she was a kid and they didn't, apparently.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 02:50 PM
Conspicuous consumption of A Family Kool-Aid?

Guilty as charged! :gavel:

And lest we forget, because afterall it IS all about Casey: Whatever the sick dynamic between George and Cindy, whatever personality twists they bring to their daughter, what Casey does to compensate, to get through it, to adjust, to cope is diabolical, destructive, poisonous. Whether she ever thought it was going to be her goal or not, she is successfully destroying the foundation from whence she came.

ETA: I think she got a lot frustrated at her folks for not seeing to what level she had to go in order to accomplish this goal. In my head, I could imagine her saying to herself "Holy smokes, folks! What MORE do I have to DO to get through to you?????"

Of course, I often wax hyperbolic.

Funny you should say that, thanks for reminding me!! As I sat watching the new jailhouse video watching KC's mounting frustration and aggitation I had the overwhelming sense I was watching a spoilt child whose tantrum was admittedly getting her nowhere--but is also screaming to me loud and clear essentially, "You guys can't you see I'm spinning these lies and manipulating and doing basically everything you ever taught me, every tactic I've learned that's always worked before and the only thing I've ever known to do when I'm up against the wall only for the first time it's not working.... Oy...

:rolleyes:

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 02:51 PM
It's simple. KC becomes volatile and reacts w anger to bully her parents when she wants to shut them up and keep CA from asking the tough questions. JMO

Yes, I see what she's doing there and how she is trying to control them and they step back so as to maintain contact with her. But I mean just in general something is weird about GA. He is part of this family dynamic also, it wasn't just Cindy's actions that made this whole family this way. He wasn't just a passive creature who just laid there innocently while the rest of the family went off the rails, IMO. Or maybe he has always been this way to try to avoid having to contribute to the family (no steady job, no willingness to do something about Casey before it was too late, falling for the Nigerian scam, etc.). I don't see him contributing anything to the family monetarily or otherwise. He should be doing something. And he has a temper, so he could probably stand up to Cindy if he really wanted to IMO.

By the time Caylee was born, it was too late IMO. Casey was already the way she was and with a baby she had the ultimate key to control her parents. After that they couldn't really do anything with her anymore unless they had called the police whenever she stole money. They needed to nip her in the bud when she was a kid and they didn't, apparently.

sharpar
01-16-2009, 03:19 PM
George is the sickest one of all ---- he is passive aggressive and very low key so its not obviously apparent he is the KING wingnut . I guarantee you Cindy and KC act the way they do because of him. He plays the fool and the victim -- he is neither. He is quite devious and the biggest liar of the bunch and has been fooling & flying under the radar for a long time.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 03:23 PM
I am not giving anybody a pass here. I thought we were talking about A family dynamics. I'm saying within that family, George seems to get a pass. KC would rather talk to George, rather see George, because she can't talk to her mother. Her mother gets angry and defensive because she's had it up to here dealing with her daughter and husband, but George is Mr. Cool to Casey. All the blame gets put on Cindy when Casey gets upset.

From reading the emails between Cindy's brother and mother, it sounds like he's had a ton of problems including spending/gambling addiction. Cindy's brother calls him a "loser" and says he ruined his sister's life. Coupled with the supposed "sicknes" in George's family, it sounds like he's a guy not without issues.

Please remember, this is my theory. Everybody's got one, right?

ITA that by this point, during this visit, CA appears at first less willing than GA to just go along w KC's lies as in the past. I'm saying it appears to me in this instance that CA is the one (finally!) closer to risking her daughter's wrath by asking the tougher questions (it's about time!) and I'd even go as far as to add that KC in fact chose a visit w GA eg precisely because she knows he can be more easily manipulated at this point. GA was previously employed in the past and I can only hazard a guess by saying living w a very controlling wife and the sick dynamics between his wife and daughter for so many years may have contributed to his unhappiness. It's clear who wore the pants and so I also have to wonder how he put up w it all these years too. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 03:24 PM
What a lot of people see in Cindy as a caretaker, supporting the whole family, that all comes at a cost. She does not do these things out of the kindness of her heart, it comes across that way but in reality it is all about ownership and manipulation. There are strings attatched to everything she does for you. I know people like this and to outsiders it looks like they are just great people, taking everything on, the reality is so much different.

so true!

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Yes, I see what she's doing there and how she is trying to control them and they step back so as to maintain contact with her. But I mean just in general something is weird about GA. He is part of this family dynamic also, it wasn't just Cindy's actions that made this whole family this way. He wasn't just a passive creature who just laid there innocently while the rest of the family went off the rails, IMO. Or maybe he has always been this way to try to avoid having to contribute to the family (no steady job, no willingness to do something about Casey before it was too late, falling for the Nigerian scam, etc.). I don't see him contributing anything to the family monetarily or otherwise. He should be doing something. And he has a temper, so he could probably stand up to Cindy if he really wanted to IMO.

By the time Caylee was born, it was too late IMO. Casey was already the way she was and with a baby she had the ultimate key to control her parents. After that they couldn't really do anything with her anymore unless they had called the police whenever she stole money. They needed to nip her in the bud when she was a kid and they didn't, apparently.

Agree totally w bolded! Way, waaayyyy too late (yathink!) Then not only did Caylee create a power shift between these two women, but when GA "messes up" himself (a few times) CA breaks all the rules and leans on their daughter as a confidante--which put KC in an even greater position of power and put GA in an even more impotent position than before stripping him of whatever respect or authority he may once have had. KC uses this to her total advantage--and says it all when she said, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement, as I've pointed out though, that reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt. JMO

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 03:46 PM
The joy or curse of each family lies within the leadership from within that it has.

If Cindy is as you all think .... then the result is what it is.

I see these people to be only as sick as their secrets. Whatever they may be.

Sometimes people are just sick. Why is it assumed a family like this must have secrets, why is it easier for some people to look for crazy explanations and excuses when there doesn't have to be a reason?! Often people are just messed up for no reason. And if those same people are taught it's OK to lie, steal and cheat- well, they are not being taught the rules we as a society must reasonably follow in order to grow up to be successful in any sense of the word.

It's like the people who when they find out someone has depression, say "You have such a good life, what are you depressed about?!" "What is wrong with you, snap out of it" Like there has to be a reason-It's an ILLNESS the symptoms are not always going to be situational- at times how they feel about themselves and those around them isn't going to be understood or even logical to outsiders- but it is what it is- they don't have to have a horrible secret they are covering up.

I was a complete screw up by the time I was 13 years old and there was no reason other than I had a Borderline mother, an ASPD step-father and an undiagnosed mental illness. It happens to lots of us!

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 03:52 PM
I don't understand all the hoopla over her faces & anguish in the tape. I know plenty of people who have tempers & make faces/fists over getting their point across, expressing their frustrations........And, they certainly aren't capable of murder!

Who among us does not know people who literally have put their fist thru a wall or something similar, under extreme circumstances? I just don't feel this is relative to her "instantly" being guilty?

It's the quiet ones that don't show emotions, that frighten me....the passive aggressive ones!:eek:

Like Lee.. his ability to appear and speak to others as if calm as he is completely out of control is interesting. MO

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Not everyone from a disordered parent suffers. Sometimes some of the best of you actually comes from that parent and with the help of the other parent and family ... you do great.

I'm a little hyper. :D

But I haven't hit the secret manic button yet for the launch.

I have always been very proud of my mother. I'm sure that is due to the great work my father, maternal grandmother and paternal aunt and uncle did.

There are different types and degrees of dysfunction. Obviously you were somewhat lucky- you had another parent and that other parent cared. You had family, outsiders who cared and obviously stepped up. Most are not so lucky.

The nature of what I see in Cindy, and what my own mother is like, you absolutely do suffer- you have no choice because you are belittled and ignored and neglected emotionally, you are taught you cannot BE anything good, ever. You are always, always, even when they are in a loving mood, not good enough or smart enough or pretty enough. Nothing you choose to do (without their stepping in and controling the situation) is good or just.

Your emotions never matter, nobody cares how you feel or what you want.. it's all about the disordered parent, always! And sometimes out of the blue, because they are having issues, you don't have to do anything to provoke it and suddenly you are hated. If in that moment they decide you are "just like" their spouse or their boss or whoever- watch it! We are there to serve their needs, their "drug of choice", their supply. They need us and the way they treat us in order to feel anything good about themselves. And they do it all with a "smile" on their face to appear normal and loving to outsiders.

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 04:19 PM
See I completly disagree with this. CA does not call KC out on anything, and she has not helped her at all she has enabled her. I see people refer back to the first phone call from the jail when KC says you dont know what my involvement is? as a way to clue CA in, well it was a clue a clue to put CA back in her place and feel the guilt, and guess what, it worked. I have seen numerous times after the initial 911 call for CA to call KC out on her lies and she goes the other way. There are some really good posts on this topic in this thread. They describe CA's personality to a T.

Yup! Casey knew just how to act to get Cindy to step down and start calling her "sweetheart". THAT is manipulation at it's finest!

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 04:21 PM
A frustrated and angry Casey (above), an angry and frustrated George, Casey seconds later (still yelling at her parents), and George seconds later (hosing down protesters).

While George does appear shocked or whatever it's Cindy that looks angry in that picture
IMO

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 04:23 PM
And having described CA's personality to a T - where does this take us? It is extremely interesting to discuss to be sure. And many wonderful posts have been written here. Much has been learned here and if nothing else - it has been a wonderful teacher and possibly a pretty darn good therapist for many too. Excellent teachers here for sure. :thumb:

How NOT to parent! Or if you want a Casey on your hands, how TO parent .

maur33
01-16-2009, 04:28 PM
There are different types and degrees of dysfunction. Obviously you were somewhat lucky- you had another parent and that other parent cared. You had family, outsiders who cared and obviously stepped up. Most are not so lucky.

The nature of what I see in Cindy, and what my own mother is like, you absolutely do suffer- you have no choice because you are belittled and ignored and neglected emotionally, you are taught you cannot BE anything good, ever. You are always, always, even when they are in a loving mood, not good enough or smart enough or pretty enough. Nothing you choose to do (without their stepping in and controling the situation) is good or just.
Your emotions never matter, nobody cares how you feel or what you want.. it's all about the disordered parent, always! And sometimes out of the blue, because they are having issues, you don't have to do anything to provoke it and suddenly you are hated. If in that moment they decide you are "just like" their spouse or their boss or whoever- watch it! We are there to serve their needs, their "drug of choice", their supply. They need us and the way they treat us in order to feel anything good about themselves. And they do it all with a "smile" on their face to appear normal and loving to outsiders.

Very good analysis.

It's almost like they erase you, like you are not a separate person and no matter how hard you try to get away it takes a strong will and significant physical distance to truly escape this type of parenting.

doogiesgirl
01-16-2009, 04:34 PM
There are different types and degrees of dysfunction. Obviously you were somewhat lucky- you had another parent and that other parent cared. You had family, outsiders who cared and obviously stepped up. Most are not so lucky.

The nature of what I see in Cindy, and what my own mother is like, you absolutely do suffer- you have no choice because you are belittled and ignored and neglected emotionally, you are taught you cannot BE anything good, ever. You are always, always, even when they are in a loving mood, not good enough or smart enough or pretty enough. Nothing you choose to do (without their stepping in and controling the situation) is good or just.

Your emotions never matter, nobody cares how you feel or what you want.. it's all about the disordered parent, always! And sometimes out of the blue, because they are having issues, you don't have to do anything to provoke it and suddenly you are hated. If in that moment they decide you are "just like" their spouse or their boss or whoever- watch it! We are there to serve their needs, their "drug of choice", their supply. They need us and the way they treat us in order to feel anything good about themselves. And they do it all with a "smile" on their face to appear normal and loving to outsiders.


OneLostGirl- I am beginning to wonder if my mother had a daughter that I don't know about! Sounds like you are describing my mother. Boy how i wish you and I could have a long private pow wow. I call my mother a "force of nature". Hey, we survived sister. doogiesgirl

BetsyB
01-16-2009, 04:34 PM
If Casey is a sociopath, and like all of you say, sociopathy is passed down from generation to generation. Wouldn't Caylee end up growing up to be a sociopath? I am the daughter of a sociopath. I haven't read any clear-cut evidence that it's passed generationally. None of my sibs are sociopaths; however, one does have a son who is.

That son was raised in the same home as my sociopath father, who was his father figure.

When examining the nature v. nurture aspects of personality disorders, it's pretty clear that some people are genetically predisposed. Being raised by someone conscienceless (in other words, taught the tricks of the trade) surely plays into it.

I don't know why my sibs and I aren't sociopaths. I do know that we each have our own issues, some bigger, some smaller. None of us escaped unscathed---but no, it's not clearly passed from one generation to the next.

debs
01-16-2009, 04:37 PM
While George does appear shocked or whatever it's Cindy that looks angry in that picture
IMO

It was hard to capture just the one frame of the video. This was the famous "Cindy wielding the bat on the driveway" episode. They were both quite distraught that protesters were bugging them that night. But George was clearly the aggressor, Cindy the appeaser/Joan of Arc martyr. And then seconds later, he was hosing down the crowd with that look on his face.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 04:39 PM
While George does appear shocked or whatever it's Cindy that looks angry in that picture
IMO

Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

Mysticj
01-16-2009, 04:48 PM
Yes, I see what she's doing there and how she is trying to control them and they step back so as to maintain contact with her. But I mean just in general something is weird about GA. He is part of this family dynamic also, it wasn't just Cindy's actions that made this whole family this way. He wasn't just a passive creature who just laid there innocently while the rest of the family went off the rails, IMO. Or maybe he has always been this way to try to avoid having to contribute to the family (no steady job, no willingness to do something about Casey before it was too late, falling for the Nigerian scam, etc.). I don't see him contributing anything to the family monetarily or otherwise. He should be doing something. And he has a temper, so he could probably stand up to Cindy if he really wanted to IMO.

By the time Caylee was born, it was too late IMO. Casey was already the way she was and with a baby she had the ultimate key to control her parents. After that they couldn't really do anything with her anymore unless they had called the police whenever she stole money. They needed to nip her in the bud when she was a kid and they didn't, apparently.

One has to look at the history to really get the picture about George.
My look at it: George became a cop. Great!!
Cindy wants him to own his own business like his father...great chance for unlimited money for family. yeah!
George quits Law and starts his oun business. Cindy says yeah!!!
George fails at his own business...money problems begin...they move to florida...George never recovers and Cindy resents him for not making it.
George becomes the butt of Cindy's jokes and she involves both kids in the fun. This was wrong and where this family sours. years later they all hate George but Cindy won't divorce him cause he would get money...For Cindy it is all about money instead of health. George can't say anything because he has no rights anymore and they have told him that over and over again. So Cindy out with the protestors is because it is her house and george has no say... Weird dynamics to say the least but I know them and more.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 04:52 PM
How NOT to parent! Or if you want a Casey on your hands, how TO parent .:clap:

Reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw Quote:

"If you must hold yourself up as an object lesson, hold yourself up as a

warning, and not as an example"

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 05:09 PM
Agree totally w bolded! Way, waaayyyy too late (yathink!) Then not only did Caylee create a power shift between these two women, but when GA "messes up" himself (a few times) CA breaks all the rules and leans on their daughter as a confidante--which put KC in an even greater position of power and put GA in an even more impotent position than before stripping him of whatever respect or authority he may once have had. KC uses this to her total advantage--and says it all when she said, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement, as I've pointed out though, that reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt. JMO

I guess I should have added that IMO there was nothing they could do by the time they had that videotaped visit with Casey. Casey is what she is now and won't change. If they push she won't tell them and if they don't push she won't tell them. So I'm not sure what they're supposed to do about it now. They have IMO played a large part in what Casey has become, but they can't stop the train at this point.

I think it's very sad that when Caylee was born she was practically pretty much doomed already. (Her only hope would have been adoption IMO). There was no way to change Casey and I'm not sure if CA or GA had put their feet down it would have changed anything. Casey probably would have just killed Caylee sooner. I'd really like to know if there would have been any way for CA/GA to get custody of Caylee because if they announced their intentions, Casey would preempt them (which could be what actually happened IMO), but if they just took Caylee and kicked Casey out I bet Casey, as custodial parent and not having ever been reported for any of the cr@p that she pulled over the years, could have probably had them arrested and Caylee returned to her. I'm not sure how that works.

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 05:14 PM
I was a complete screw up by the time I was 13 years old and there was no reason other than I had a Borderline mother, an ASPD step-father and an undiagnosed mental illness. It happens to lots of us!

Most kids who are screw-ups at 13 probably don't have 1/4 the reasons you present. Being 13 is reason enough!! Having all the other situations you were living with just makes it that much harder to be 13! To be very honest, I can't imagine being 13 and going through everything else you describe and actually surviving it.

2 out of my 3 kids did all the dumbest stuff they ever went through at 13/14 yrs old. One got into the occasional fights at school, the other got arrested for shop lifting. Both turned out fine. The oldest, who was a pretty great 13 yo is the one who ended up having BPD.

It's a pot shoot. We never know, any of us when mental illness is going to strike. I think we're luckier now than 40 years ago, a family member with mental illness was never discussed, so if there was a family history of it, it was well buried. Each generation was on their own.

My dad's younger brother died from a self inflicted gun shot to the head. Story was my uncle was cleaning his gun when it went off. At 5, never being around guns, having no idea what this entailed, I knew something about the story wasn't right. When I was 30, I discovered my uncle had severe mental illness from the time he was a teenager. Knowing what I knew by then it sounded like bi polar disorder. But as a real diagnosis, we'll never know.

Pattymarie
01-16-2009, 05:26 PM
I posted this another thread but it more belongs here. After watching the latest video release, I believe Casey is deranged. She has been able to mask it, but the killing has unleashed her madness. She will only get worse. I have worked on a psych unit (as a nurse, but by no means an expert) in the past and this video, imo, shows labile psychosis. And the killing may have actually caused a psychotic break. (Also, in my experience, lots of insane people may appear perfectly normal on the surface.)

All along, while being appalled at this case, I could never work up the hate toward her that many on the net have expressed. Something just didn't sit right with me. I don't believe she killed in the heinous manner of viscious killer. I think she has been veering toward insanity for along time now. Maybe the pregnancy unleashed it. I think she is a sad, pathetic figure who has probably blocked out the killing for now.

Insanity defense may be the only way to go, if the defense can grasp this.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 05:28 PM
George is the sickest one of all ---- he is passive aggressive and very low key so its not obviously apparent he is the KING wingnut . I guarantee you Cindy and KC act the way they do because of him. He plays the fool and the victim -- he is neither. He is quite devious and the biggest liar of the bunch and has been fooling & flying under the radar for a long time.

Strongly disagree. He is passive alright but I feel certain it's the other way around, and suspect rather he became more that way after years of living w a controlling woman (or two). JMO

Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

ITA! I too could see the horror as her mind is putting together her daughter, w the reality she has at the least covered up her own child's death. Omg that's alot to take in. JMO

I guess I should have added that IMO there was nothing they could do by the time they had that videotaped visit with Casey. Casey is what she is now and won't change. If they push she won't tell them and if they don't push she won't tell them. So I'm not sure what they're supposed to do about it now. They have IMO played a large part in what Casey has become, but they can't stop the train at this point.

I think it's very sad that when Caylee was born she was practically pretty much doomed already. (Her only hope would have been adoption IMO). There was no way to change Casey and I'm not sure if CA or GA had put their feet down it would have changed anything. Casey probably would have just killed Caylee sooner. I'd really like to know if there would have been any way for CA/GA to get custody of Caylee because if they announced their intentions, Casey would preempt them (which could be what actually happened IMO), but if they just took Caylee and kicked Casey out I bet Casey, as custodial parent and not having ever been reported for any of the cr@p that she pulled over the years, could have probably had them arrested and Caylee returned to her. I'm not sure how that works.

Not certain myself just yet as to whether Caylee was killed intentionally or thru negligence but I certainly agree that once KC became pregnant, and CA protested Caylee being adopted and insisted instead KC keep Caylee, the stage was set for some sort of tragedy. JMO

Pattymarie
01-16-2009, 05:30 PM
Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

I totally agree with everything you have written.

nancy botwin
01-16-2009, 05:37 PM
Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 05:47 PM
I posted this another thread but it more belongs here. After watching the latest video release, I believe Casey is deranged. She has been able to mask it, but the killing has unleashed her madness. She will only get worse. I have worked on a psych unit (as a nurse, but by no means an expert) in the past and this video, imo, shows labile psychosis. And the killing may have actually caused a psychotic break. (Also, in my experience, lots of insane people may appear perfectly normal on the surface.)

All along, while being appalled at this case, I could never work up the hate toward her that many on the net have expressed. Something just didn't sit right with me. I don't believe she killed in the heinous manner of viscious killer. I think she has been veering toward insanity for along time now. Maybe the pregnancy unleashed it. I think she is a sad, pathetic figure who has probably blocked out the killing for now.

Insanity defense may be the only way to go, if the defense can grasp this.

Nor can I muster the same hatred, altho I am even less an expert than you re psychosis and any other possible explanations for her seeming oblivion or detachment. But I have also sensed that w/e happened, it was due to KC's neglect and poor supervision vs malice and intent. And like you, that it may have resulted in some sort of trauma that sent her into a kind of tailspin causing her compulsive high-risk behavior to escalate etc. Have written a number of posts to this effect ie that if you take an already troubled, unstable and narcissistic young mother already labelled as 'unfit...' and then add the guilt and horror of discovering her child dead due to her own negligence (ie beyond hope on the bottom of the pool eg) it isn't hard to imagine this can push someone over the edge. I'm just not convinced she is insane. At least not by a criminal or legal standard (which would be like Andrea Yates where there is no cover-up). JMO

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 05:50 PM
I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

Agree 100%, couldn't have said it better.

icherish
01-16-2009, 05:57 PM
Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

Those were my observations as well. And to think that just a few days later, the monster was back in her house. :eek:

icherish
01-16-2009, 06:05 PM
I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

Totally agree.

I think with Cindy, it only penetrates so far. The horror and the pain is too great and the rose colored glasses (and denial) go back on.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 06:07 PM
I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

:clap::clap: Thanks for the picture.

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 06:14 PM
I guess I should have added that IMO there was nothing they could do by the time they had that videotaped visit with Casey. Casey is what she is now and won't change. If they push she won't tell them and if they don't push she won't tell them. So I'm not sure what they're supposed to do about it now. They have IMO played a large part in what Casey has become, but they can't stop the train at this point.

I think it's very sad that when Caylee was born she was practically pretty much doomed already. (Her only hope would have been adoption IMO). There was no way to change Casey and I'm not sure if CA or GA had put their feet down it would have changed anything. Casey probably would have just killed Caylee sooner. I'd really like to know if there would have been any way for CA/GA to get custody of Caylee because if they announced their intentions, Casey would preempt them (which could be what actually happened IMO), but if they just took Caylee and kicked Casey out I bet Casey, as custodial parent and not having ever been reported for any of the cr@p that she pulled over the years, could have probably had them arrested and Caylee returned to her. I'm not sure how that works.

Putting all or most of this off on G&C doesn't explain all the kids who grow up in truly horrific situations and are fine human beings and loving parents. KC has developed some serious issues, but it seems the ones that could be seen as red flags to what could be coming have all been in the last 2 or 3 years, after she was legally an adult, therefore out of G or C's ability to force her into treatment. Caylee was already in the picture, so much of the time to protect Caylee they are seen as enabling KC. When the situation became so bad they knew they had to do something it appears KC was preparing to do something else on her own.

I believe if G&C had just changed the locks one day, obtained the paperwork behind KC's back to at least get temporary custody of Caylee. Then gone in for the kill when KC reacted badly to being locked out, maybe just maybe Caylee would be alive today. But KC had done a really good job hiding her true feelings from everyone. Look at all the early LE interviews, everyone who knew KC said she would never hurt Caylee. Those are all the same people G&C would have been up against trying to get custody of Caylee.

C&FS can't remove a child from it's mother without cause, stealing from relatives is a bad thing but the A's had always fixed it so LE was not involved. Having no job, again not a reason to remove a child. I have worked with families who have done things you and I would see as horrific and cause to lose a child forever, but the courts are set up to keep families together. A couple of parenting classes, a letter showing good progress from a PO, the kid goes back. Our courts are not set up to care for children. Therefore the courts rely on parents, even bad ones.

indicat
01-16-2009, 06:22 PM
George becomes the butt of Cindy's jokes and she involves both kids in the fun. This was wrong and where this family sours. years later they all hate George but Cindy won't divorce him cause he would get money...For Cindy it is all about money instead of health. George can't say anything because he has no rights anymore and they have told him that over and over again. So Cindy out with the protestors is because it is her house and george has no say... Weird dynamics to say the least but I know them and more.

Make no mistake George knows what he is doing. IMO these personalities seek each other out, he doesnt have to work, he does what he likes around the house, Cindy takes the bulk of the responsibility....he has grown acustomed to this and gets what he needs out of it.

radio
01-16-2009, 07:01 PM
How NOT to parent! Or if you want a Casey on your hands, how TO parent .


:wave:

Why did I expect to be enlightened about this matter!!!:crazy::crazy:

OLG, thank you once again. LOL!!
:bowdown: :bowdown:

As to the other post. Yes, I was a lucky child. This is true and I know it. Lucky to have been born in family where when or if one fell back, others stepped forward. The Anthony family, it seems, had no one to step forward.

For whatever they are or aren't - thats too bad. imho

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 07:04 PM
I posted this another thread but it more belongs here. After watching the latest video release, I believe Casey is deranged. She has been able to mask it, but the killing has unleashed her madness. She will only get worse. I have worked on a psych unit (as a nurse, but by no means an expert) in the past and this video, imo, shows labile psychosis. And the killing may have actually caused a psychotic break. (Also, in my experience, lots of insane people may appear perfectly normal on the surface.)

All along, while being appalled at this case, I could never work up the hate toward her that many on the net have expressed. Something just didn't sit right with me. I don't believe she killed in the heinous manner of viscious killer. I think she has been veering toward insanity for along time now. Maybe the pregnancy unleashed it. I think she is a sad, pathetic figure who has probably blocked out the killing for now.

Insanity defense may be the only way to go, if the defense can grasp this.

I too find KC's behavior disturbing, and while I certainly don't hate her, I hate what she did. Her actions at times and her attitude, cause me to react physically, I want to reach out and smack some sense into her. Even knowing it would change nothing, it's how I feel.

I posted this elsewhere too but it certainly pertains to your post. In the videos of the first visits, I felt she was trying to convince herself, along with C&G that Caylee would be coming home. I wasn't buying what she was saying for a second because she didn't sound like she believed it herself. In this last tape there is a marked difference in the way she says Caylee is safe, Caylee will be home, as if some how over the last 10 or 12 days something changed, she now believes it to be true and even knowing everything I know, I found myself wanting to believe her.

When I see others in a situation I find difficult, I have always felt, any of us at any time could wake up in their shoes. And honestly, the worst situations, none of us really knows what we would do, because our minds just can't take us there. I have felt all along this is were Cindy is stuck. Her mind just can't accept what is happening, so she fights, argues, lies and creates a diversion. I only hope her mind is strong enough to allow her to start climbing out of the hole she has dug to protect herself.

In the mean time, poor Geo, who I think has always been a bit of an under dog in this family, is suddenly in the position of being everyones main source of support. I hope he is getting the help and support he needs at this time. His love for his wife and family is so evident, every time he opens his mouth, or even looks at them. I hope when she is well, CA gives Geo the props he deserves for being there for everyone else in there time of need.

Pattymarie
01-16-2009, 07:13 PM
I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

"A picture paints a thousand words"

BetsyB
01-16-2009, 07:18 PM
Nor can I muster the same hatred, altho I am even less an expert than you re psychosis and any other possible explanations for her seeming oblivion or detachment. But I have also sensed that w/e happened, it was due to KC's neglect and poor supervision vs malice and intent. And like you, that it may have resulted in some sort of trauma that sent her into a kind of tailspin causing her compulsive high-risk behavior to escalate etc. Have written a number of posts to this effect ie that if you take an already troubled, unstable and narcissistic young mother already labelled as 'unfit...' and then add the guilt and horror of discovering her child dead due to her own negligence (ie beyond hope on the bottom of the pool eg) it isn't hard to imagine this can push someone over the edge. I'm just not convinced she is insane. At least not by a criminal or legal standard (which would be like Andrea Yates where there is no cover-up). JMO
She's not insane. She is far too organized in her thought (and ability to withhold information) to be psychotic.

She may be deranged, but her derangement comes from outrage that she is not being given what she wants to be given--NOW!

radio
01-16-2009, 07:20 PM
Sometimes people are just sick. Why is it assumed a family like this must have secrets, why is it easier for some people to look for crazy explanations and excuses when there doesn't have to be a reason?! Often people are just messed up for no reason. And if those same people are taught it's OK to lie, steal and cheat- well, they are not being taught the rules we as a society must reasonably follow in order to grow up to be successful in any sense of the word.

It's like the people who when they find out someone has depression, say "You have such a good life, what are you depressed about?!" "What is wrong with you, snap out of it" Like there has to be a reason-It's an ILLNESS the symptoms are not always going to be situational- at times how they feel about themselves and those around them isn't going to be understood or even logical to outsiders- but it is what it is- they don't have to have a horrible secret they are covering up.

I was a complete screw up by the time I was 13 years old and there was no reason other than I had a Borderline mother, an ASPD step-father and an undiagnosed mental illness. It happens to lots of us!

Want one thing clear about my post. I was not referring to the 'secret' which is oft tossed about.

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 07:59 PM
Kiki There is one line in many of your posts that I find really troubling, and it seems out of place, because you offer really exceptional in site into the dynamics of what makes the A's tick, what makes all the A's run. Over and over, you have given really great food for thought and then: you toss the Cindy made KC keep Caylee against her wishes story line. Of all the rumors of what goes on in this family, this is the most unsubstantiated. This is the one put out their by one person and denied by everyone else.

Please don't take this as criticism, because that's certainly not my intent. Is there something you know that I don't, that would make this more believable?

If this story is found to be true, KC did a pretty great job of hiding it from everyone for a long time, including the observation of KC's friend Holly, who spoke of KC breast feeding Caylee, it doesn't take dedication to your baby to give birth, but it does take a lot of dedication to continue providing nourishment and nurturing by breastfeeding. To me this just doesn't sound possible from someone who never wanted to keep her baby or by someone who was pressured into keeping a her.

shivs
01-16-2009, 08:34 PM
Sometimes people are just sick. Why is it assumed a family like this must have secrets, why is it easier for some people to look for crazy explanations and excuses when there doesn't have to be a reason?! Often people are just messed up for no reason. And if those same people are taught it's OK to lie, steal and cheat- well, they are not being taught the rules we as a society must reasonably follow in order to grow up to be successful in any sense of the word.

It's like the people who when they find out someone has depression, say "You have such a good life, what are you depressed about?!" "What is wrong with you, snap out of it" Like there has to be a reason-It's an ILLNESS the symptoms are not always going to be situational- at times how they feel about themselves and those around them isn't going to be understood or even logical to outsiders- but it is what it is- they don't have to have a horrible secret they are covering up.

I was a complete screw up by the time I was 13 years old and there was no reason other than I had a Borderline mother, an ASPD step-father and an undiagnosed mental illness. It happens to lots of us!


Awesome post :blowkiss: So true

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 08:40 PM
I completely agree. When the visit begins, Cindy is forced to confront her daughter's true nature-- they haven't seen Casey in quite a while, and Caylee's third birthday has come and gone. I think Cindy was hoping to be greeted by a visibly distraught daughter who was comprehending the gravity of the situation and equally distressed about Caylee's uncertain fate. Instead, Casey bounds in giggling and wanting to talk about herself. Cindy is looking at her in utter sickened horror, IMO:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/misconline/cindyaugust14visit.jpg

The look on Cindy's face throughout the whole video was hard to take. The pain is so evident. When KC immediately starts in with the what's her problem attitude, why is crying? Ugh, her lack of any sympathy or empathy for Cindy is so apparent, it is actually painful to watch. There was really nothing Cindy could do with KC during this visit, when KC asked to speak, Cindy listened to her for 50 seconds straight, then makes some small offering and listens while KC goes on for 2 more minutes. The whole time was nothing but a poor pitiful me session.

I was waiting from the beginning for someone to mention Caylee's Bday, when Geo finally brings it, this is when he gets his smack down. Geo asks, "how did you survive Caylee's Bday?" KC replies; "I didn't, I spent the day under the blanket". Geo looked as if he had been physically hit. Then KC starts whining about Cindy making chili and everyone getting together, being together while she is alone, that's the story that got back to her. Well she's been saying all along that she speaks to no one, hears from no one, so what was that about, besides oh, poor, pitiful KC. She makes me want to shake her, even knowing it will accomplish nothing.

Thanks for the picture...

LCoastMom
01-16-2009, 09:04 PM
My mentally ill parent has a paranoia disorder, too. Everyone is a suspect. Everyone is out to get them. No one is to be trusted, even your own spouse, children, friends. It's harder for the family than it is for the patient. When I talked to a therapist about it and asked her how to help my parent get well, the therapist said, "You can't. The best thing you can do is get therapy for yourself to help you learn how to cope with a mentally ill loved one." It took 30+ years but I've learned to hate the disease, not the person.

My sister and I also thank our lucky stars we didn't inherit it.

All of this is why GA and especially CA don't push KC too hard for information. They know that if they get angry with her, KC will shut them out completely and not talk to them at all. In fact, that may just be what happened after the August jail visit we are all watching now.



The hardest thing for someone who has never lived with this to understand is the extremes people will go through to keep the peace in their home, something I believe C&G got very little of in spite of their best efforts.

KC was an adult when she started acting out to an extreme, G&C had very little they could do, and yet they obviously kept trying. And they obviously love their daughter in spite of everything they know and everything they fear.

I think this video is the closest we've seen, to what living with KC was really like. Having been there done that with my own daughter, they have my sympathy.

BuzzieCat
01-16-2009, 10:36 PM
The hardest thing for someone who has never lived with this to understand is the extremes people will go through to keep the peace in their home, something I believe C&G got very little of in spite of their best efforts.

KC was an adult when she started acting out to an extreme, G&C had very little they could do, and yet they obviously kept trying. And they obviously love their daughter in spite of everything they know and everything they fear.
Has there been information to confirm that Casey only started acting out in her 20s? I certainly may have missed that, but I thought there hadn't been much info about that either way.

I know I haven't lived this kind of situation myself, but I just find it hard to believe if Casey was at least partially hardwired for this and raised in a difficult home that she didn't start doing anything out of the ordinary until she got pregnant. If she is a sociopath or psychopath, she has probably been that way for longer than that. There should have been evidence of it since her teens and possibly conduct disorder before that. I just find it hard to believe that she had perfectly normal empathy and conscience and somehow pregnancy broke them. The way she acted in that video didn't seem to be schizophrenia or postpartum depression.

professoressa
01-16-2009, 10:37 PM
After watching the "new" jailhouse video for the umpteenth time, I have reached the conclusion that...

The A's are the kind of people who TALK a lot, but SAY nothing. Especially KC herself.

Whisperer
01-16-2009, 10:38 PM
We are new to this tape and forget these actions of Casey occurred the middle of August before the 1st bailout. Now these parents got her home, took care of her. She was then arrested once more. Now, the parents go and seek out anther $50,000 to have this perp home AGAIN. Doesn't that boggle the mind?

The parents are so sick and so dependent on this girl, it should cause the hair on your neck to rise. Keep in mind now how further they have gone to help her out. They dumped more money and more media and more stunts into helping her. These parents knew and were not blind and were not in denial. They have aided her and abetted her the entire time, taking advantage of the public and the Police, not to mention tax payers and money.

I do not want to hear anyone tell me that the parents are in denial about Caylee. Their experience is not denial but delusional regarding anything to do with Casey and her behavior.

These adult people have behaved in such a manner that created and still creates a daughter who believes she is the center of this universe. The two women are so enmeshed, you might as well lock up Cindy with her. Cindy, for all intentional purposes acts like the daughter. Her co-dependence is extreme.

DAWN TREADER
01-16-2009, 11:23 PM
Watching the newly released video of an emotionally fragile Casey I can only wonder what might have happened had she not been bonded out shortly after that last visit with her parents. Would her anger and frustration intensified or decreased?

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:25 PM
I am not giving anybody a pass here. I'm saying within that family, George seems to get a pass. KC would rather talk to George, rather see George, because she can't talk to her mother. Her mother gets angry and defensive, but George is Mr. Cool to Casey. All the blame gets put on Cindy when Casey gets upset.

From reading the emails between Cindy's brother and mother, it sounds like he's had a ton of problems including spending/gambling addiction and he can't hold down a job. Cindy's brother calls him a "loser" and says he ruined his sister's life. Coupled with the supposed "sicknes" in George's family, it sounds like he's a guy not without issues.

Please remember, this is my theory. Everybody's got one, right?

Yeah and George is also the one she claims "abused" her. Just to refresh memories here are few more of her claims- that she hates him, he gambles on-line, he was having an affair. That her parents fight all the time and she didn't want her child around the house with two of them cuz all the fighting... That they were on the verge of divorce.

Ol' George is also the one she told her friends had a stroke. She also told her Amy he hit something with her car. I'm sure I left out some examples but my point is, all THAT?! I don't know about anyone else but where I come from that's hardly getting a "pass". I'd rather fight the b!tch, let her try to hit me with her fists, least I could defendmyself!!

Goodness, sounds a bit like Cindy's behaviors.. Calling Casey's friend and talking ***** about her, calling her names in front of her fiance, her treatment of LP, Tim Miller (publicly calling him a drunk?!), the lies she told on TV about LE not coming to get the clothes of Casey's when we now know she was supposed to bring them to LE but then she would not answer their calls!

smear, repeat, lie, repeat, smear again and begin the cycle again! And George sits back and watches... doing nothing about any of it. Yup, each have issues that's for sure! That is one dysfuntional family- much like growing up in the home of and being "raised" by active alcoholic(s).

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 11:35 PM
Has there been information to confirm that Casey only started acting out in her 20s? I certainly may have missed that, but I thought there hadn't been much info about that either way.

I know I haven't lived this kind of situation myself, but I just find it hard to believe if Casey was at least partially hardwired for this and raised in a difficult home that she didn't start doing anything out of the ordinary until she got pregnant. If she is a sociopath or psychopath, she has probably been that way for longer than that. There should have been evidence of it since her teens and possibly conduct disorder before that. I just find it hard to believe that she had perfectly normal empathy and conscience and somehow pregnancy broke them. The way she acted in that video didn't seem to be schizophrenia or postpartum depression.

(bold, underlined mine) ITA w bolded. But that's a big IF. And I suppose a big part of the reason I've yet to rule out negligence, and remain thus far unconvinced of malice--or even intent. JMO

We are new to this tape and forget these actions of Casey occurred the middle of August before the 1st bailout. Now these parents got her home, took care of her. She was then arrested once more. Now, the parents go and seek out anther $50,000 to have this perp home AGAIN. Doesn't that boggle the mind?

The parents are so sick and so dependent on this girl, it should cause the hair on your neck to rise. Keep in mind now how further they have gone to help her out. They dumped more money and more media and more stunts into helping her. These parents knew and were not blind and were not in denial. They have aided her and abetted her the entire time, taking advantage of the public and the Police, not to mention tax payers and money.

I do not want to hear anyone tell me that the parents are in denial about Caylee. Their experience is not denial but delusional regarding anything to do with Casey and her behavior.

These adult people have behaved in such a manner that created and still creates a daughter who believes she is the center of this universe. The two women are so enmeshed, you might as well lock up Cindy with her. Cindy, for all intentional purposes acts like the daughter. Her co-dependence is extreme.

:clap:

(bold mine) ITA, esp w bolded!!! Now will you kindly tell us how you really feel... J/K! JMO

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 11:38 PM
Yeah and George is also the one she claims "abused" her. Just to refresh memories here are few more of her claims- that she hates him, he gambles on-line, he was having an affair. That her parents fight all the time and she didn't want her child around the house with two of them cuz all the fighting... That they were on the verge of divorce.

Ol' George is also the one she told her friends had a stroke. She also told her Amy he hit something with her car. I'm sure I left out some examples but my point is, all THAT?! I don't know about anyone else but where I come from that's hardly getting a "pass". I'd rather fight the b!tch, let her try to hit me with her fists, least I could defendmyself!!

Goodness, sounds a bit like Cindy's behaviors.. Calling Casey's friend and talking ***** about her, calling her names in front of her fiance, her treatment of LP, Tim Miller (publicly calling him a drunk?!), the lies she told on TV about LE not coming to get the clothes of Casey's when we now know she was supposed to bring them to LE but then she would not answer their calls!

smear, repeat, lie, repeat, smear again and begin the cycle again! And George sits back and watches... doing nothing about any of it. Yup, each have issues that's for sure! That is one dysfuntional family- much like growing up in the home of and being "raised" by active alcoholic(s).

And please One, don't you hold back either... J/K!!!

:blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
01-16-2009, 11:39 PM
Yes, I see what she's doing there and how she is trying to control them and they step back so as to maintain contact with her. But I mean just in general something is weird about GA. He is part of this family dynamic also, it wasn't just Cindy's actions that made this whole family this way. He wasn't just a passive creature who just laid there innocently while the rest of the family went off the rails, IMO. Or maybe he has always been this way to try to avoid having to contribute to the family (no steady job, no willingness to do something about Casey before it was too late, falling for the Nigerian scam, etc.). I don't see him contributing anything to the family monetarily or otherwise. He should be doing something. And he has a temper, so he could probably stand up to Cindy if he really wanted to IMO.

By the time Caylee was born, it was too late IMO. Casey was already the way she was and with a baby she had the ultimate key to control her parents. After that they couldn't really do anything with her anymore unless they had called the police whenever she stole money. They needed to nip her in the bud when she was a kid and they didn't, apparently.

He certainly is quite a loser, I agree. I don't put it past George to be suckered into getting rid of the body. I do believe when LE said to George, "I think you know a lot about a lot of things, George" that they feel the same way about him... the little eager beaver

ETA- though up until the murder (if it was Casey who murdered Caylee) I do believe she could have changed, had she wanted to. My history of like-behaviors had been going on longer and were far more criminal than Casey's (until the murder) and I have changed! Even Cindy could still change IMO - DBT would do that woman good!

Whisperer
01-16-2009, 11:43 PM
Putting all or most of this off on G&C doesn't explain all the kids who grow up in truly horrific situations and are fine human beings and loving parents. KC has developed some serious issues, but it seems the ones that could be seen as red flags to what could be coming have all been in the last 2 or 3 years, after she was legally an adult, therefore out of G or C's ability to force her into treatment. Caylee was already in the picture, so much of the time to protect Caylee they are seen as enabling KC. When the situation became so bad they knew they had to do something it appears KC was preparing to do something else on her own.

I believe if G&C had just changed the locks. Then gone in for the kill when KC reacted badly to being locked out, maybe just maybe Caylee would be alive today. But KC had done a really good job hiding her true feelings from everyone. Look at all the early LE interviews, everyone who knew KC said she would never hurt Caylee. Those are all the same people G&C would have been up against trying to get custody of Caylee.

C&FS can't remove a child from it's mother without cause, stealing from relatives is a bad thing but the A's had always fixed it so LE was not involved. Having no job, again not a reason to remove a child. I have worked with families who have done things you and I would see as horrific and cause to lose a child forever, but the courts are set up to keep families together. A couple of parenting classes, a letter showing good progress from a PO, the kid goes back. Our courts are not set up to care for children. Therefore the courts rely on parents, even bad ones.
_______________

Concerning Horrific parents...from my perspective, the results I have seen have been inmates who committed horrific crimes. Granted these are males I encountered. I am told the female victims wind up in therapy. if not worse. I think kc has had problems her entire life and has been protected and covered up. Ca strikes me as one of those helicopter parents....may have done all of her school work too.

I know what you are saying about Caylee's custody, but couldn't the courts have given temporary custody to the grandparents on the basis that kc has never been able to provide for this child? If they had removed Casey from the house and provided the stolen money,cards, etc. For a bigger impact, they could have pressed charges. I bet there is also a violent temper, which has not been addressed and is being kept hidden. They wouldn't have to worry about Casey....going to parenting classes.....wouldn't happen! She would be defiant.. she would have given up. Granted, she would be working on getting back into the house and causing quite a drama and worse. To protect the baby, CA could have put Caylee in Childcare.

They could have changed the locks and put a suitcase on the porch, I agree with you. Can you see either of them doing that? Not in this lifetime!She let her have access to the house the whole time kc was gone. Cindy putting her DD outside...forget it. She would NEVER do it. Look at what she knows after this last tape.....she still hasn't seen the light....just the opposite. She bails her out and brings her home and coddles her; never confronts her. She is afraid she might make kc angry. Cindy cannot help herself, no less Casey. Cindy chooses to fight with the world but not with her daughter. Cindy has no fear of the world and their wrath but is scared to death of a pint-sized female.

Cindy's co-dependency is paramount in her inability to confront her daughter. She is afraid of losing her. She did not do what is right for Caylee and gone for custody; I am sure she thought about it though. People think CA is tough. Nothing can be further from the truth, she is a very weak, unhappy person who was controlled by a malignant narcissist and didn't mind it apparently.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 12:28 AM
Kiki There is one line in many of your posts that I find really troubling, and it seems out of place, because you offer really exceptional in site into the dynamics of what makes the A's tick, what makes all the A's run. Over and over, you have given really great food for thought and then: you toss the Cindy made KC keep Caylee against her wishes story line. Of all the rumors of what goes on in this family, this is the most unsubstantiated. This is the one put out their by one person and denied by everyone else.

Please don't take this as criticism, because that's certainly not my intent. Is there something you know that I don't, that would make this more believable?

If this story is found to be true, KC did a pretty great job of hiding it from everyone for a long time, including the observation of KC's friend Holly, who spoke of KC breast feeding Caylee, it doesn't take dedication to your baby to give birth, but it does take a lot of dedication to continue providing nourishment and nurturing by breastfeeding. To me this just doesn't sound possible from someone who never wanted to keep her baby or by someone who was pressured into keeping a her.

Untrue. I suspect those who are more familiar w/ my posts would vouch rather I'm in fact one of the few around here who does not "toss" around anything in the way of rumors--a reliable source who instead consistently "tosses out" speculation, a practice which I've learned is not the way to win popularity contests at WS. This fact was released long ago in document dump (8/25/08), and well substantiated by multiple reliable sources. KC did a pretty good job of hiding everything including her pregnancy. Perhaps it is you instead who should consider the source of Holly's info.

"Four hundred pages of documents released by police in the case of a missing Orlando toddler reveal that her mother wanted to give her up for adoption before she was born, but her grandmother convinced her not to."

"Court documents show 22-year-old Casey Anthony, the mother of missing Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony, wanted to give the girl up for adoption before she was born.

"Documents released by prosecutors Monday show Casey Anthony's mother insisted that she keep the child."

"Casey Anthony wanted to give up her unborn child for adoption. But those plans were nixed by her mother, who insisted she keep the baby... Childhood friend Kiomarie Torres Cruz said that during Casey Anthony's pregnancy, she wanted to put the baby up for adoption. Cruz told Anthony she would be interested in adopting the unborn child because she couldn't have children herself. Cruz said she thought Anthony was bipolar. At times, Anthony would ask her something one day, and then would not remember later that she asked the question."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/caylee-anthony/orl-casey2608aug26,0,2732067.story

http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/Records-Casey-Anthony-wanted-to-put-Caylee-up-for-adoption-/1219761697.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,410865,00.html

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2008/8/26/376590.html

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/27429754.html

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17291314/detail.html?rss=orlpn&psp=news

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/documents-shed-new-light-on-casey-anthony-case/2032023385

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/082508anthonydocuments/indexGallery.htm

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 12:35 AM
ITA that by this point, during this visit, CA appears at first less willing than GA to just go along w KC's lies as in the past. I'm saying it appears to me in this instance that CA is the one (finally!) closer to risking her daughter's wrath by asking the tougher questions (it's about time!) and I'd even go as far as to add that KC in fact chose a visit w GA eg precisely because she knows he can be more easily manipulated at this point. GA was previously employed in the past and I can only hazard a guess by saying living w a very controlling wife and the sick dynamics between his wife and daughter for so many years may have contributed to his unhappiness. It's clear who wore the pants and so I also have to wonder how he put up w it all these years too. JMO

Well, imo his "issues" didn't just pop up.. I have little doubt there are some interesting dynamics in his relationship with his own mother.

Men like George need women like Cindy... and women like Cindy need men like George. My mother closed her eyes to my stepfather robbing the store in which he worked (the only job he held for longer than a month), 17 years of drug addiction (to the point she had to buy a lock box for her medications) including doing drugs with my sister who was a teenager! She also "dealt with" him stealing checks (when I was a teenager she kept her checkbook under my mattress at night and had me lock myself in the room so he couldn't get at the checks while she slept.).. by the time I was old enough to move out, "they" had sued several peoples auto insurance companies after accidents they caused, had gone bankrupt 3 times, he collected Social security disability for a back problem that did not even exist.

The last few years were even worse- he began abusing his psych meds and would fall asleep while driving and while smoking in bed. The guy had WELTS on his chest from cigarette burns. She'd yell at him, calling him names, threatning to leave him, or depending on the situation, threatening to kill herself... but she never did anything (except invalidate him as a human being every chance she got) saying she could not pay her bills without his check or that he'd kill himself if she left him etc etc. But the truth is she enjoyed (needed- thrived on- depended on) having someone to invalidate, make fun of and call names (this is the kind of control women like this have over their family)- and he needed someone to support him, totake care of him... so long as he could steal her medication and money and continue being the total piece of ***** he'd always been. Who cares wtf she calls him, right (in his head)?!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 12:42 AM
Agree totally w bolded! Way, waaayyyy too late (yathink!) Then not only did Caylee create a power shift between these two women, but when GA "messes up" himself (a few times) CA breaks all the rules and leans on their daughter as a confidante--which put KC in an even greater position of power and put GA in an even more impotent position than before stripping him of whatever respect or authority he may once have had. KC uses this to her total advantage--and says it all when she said, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement, as I've pointed out though, that reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt. JMO

Bold is mine-

ITA- they became a "team" in respect to disliking George.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 12:49 AM
Hey One I hear ya! There were a lot of twisted dynamics going on in that family.
:eek:
One, you and your childhood stories really do break my heart. You are 'hella brave" (that's for our teenaged sons lol), one mighty overcomer IMO for sure.
:blowkiss:
Btw how crazymaking was that in the new jailhouse video when GA starts reassuring his darling KC "Remember sweetheart, you're the boss..." Yes by all means, this is the instruction I recommend givng when your child is TOTALLY DECEIVING YOU, DEFYING AND STONEWALLING LE, IS THE PRIME SUSPECT IN HER CHILD'S MURDER AND SMUGLY THUMBING HER NOSE AT AUTHORITY: "YOU'RE THE BOSS SWEETHEART!!" (aaaaaarrgghhhh...!!) JMO
:banghead:

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 12:53 AM
Very good analysis.

It's almost like they erase you, like you are not a separate person and no matter how hard you try to get away it takes a strong will and significant physical distance to truly escape this type of parenting.

Absolutely... except you never existed in the first place other than to fufill their needs. An eraser could wipe your entire existence clean because ya never even made a DENT.

It take years and massvie amounts of therapy and insight to come to terms with, to feel worthy of anything. And some never do.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 01:14 AM
Hey One I hear ya! There were a lot of twisted dynamics going on in that family.
:eek:
One, you and your childhood stories really do break my heart. You are 'hella brave" (that's for our teenaged sons lol), one mighty overcomer IMO for sure.
:blowkiss:
Btw how crazymaking was that in the new jailhouse video when GA starts reassuring his darling KC "Remember sweetheart, you're the boss..." Yes by all means, this is the instruction I recommend givng when your child is TOTALLY DECEIVING YOU, DEFYING AND STONEWALLING LE, IS THE PRIME SUSPECT IN HER CHILD'S MURDER AND SMUGLY THUMBING HER NOSE AT AUTHORITY: "YOU'RE THE BOSS SWEETHEART!!" (aaaaaarrgghhhh...!!) JMO
:banghead:

I don't want to break your heart, my bird friend! :blowkiss:

I want people to realize the damage they cause their children, I want people to think before they choose to skip over teaching their children right from wrong, or not holding them accountable simply because the childs reaction may cause havoc in the household. I want people to know that Casey's behaviors began as a way to cope in that household.. They continued and worsened because her parents, the people who were supposed to be in charge- obviously never, ever were in charge of very much other than making her hate and resent them.

She ended up murdering her child (if she did) because she chose to- perhaps (in her mind) to prove to Cindy that, afterall, she truly no longer had any control over Casey... so she took away the only thing that made Cindy happy.

ETA- I KNOW (re: George in the video)!! his stupid analagies themselves are "crazy making" LOL! Did you see Casey LAUGH at her mom when they first got there and Cindy was crying?! (though she put her head down and pretended it was tears she was hiding but theres no way anyone could miss that sick smile she had after Cindy said she wasn't "doing so good") !sick-0! I'd like to beat that b!tch with a bat! LOL

gitana1
01-17-2009, 01:30 AM
Putting all or most of this off on G&C doesn't explain all the kids who grow up in truly horrific situations and are fine human beings and loving parents. KC has developed some serious issues, but it seems the ones that could be seen as red flags to what could be coming have all been in the last 2 or 3 years, after she was legally an adult, therefore out of G or C's ability to force her into treatment. Caylee was already in the picture, so much of the time to protect Caylee they are seen as enabling KC. When the situation became so bad they knew they had to do something it appears KC was preparing to do something else on her own.

I believe if G&C had just changed the locks one day, obtained the paperwork behind KC's back to at least get temporary custody of Caylee. Then gone in for the kill when KC reacted badly to being locked out, maybe just maybe Caylee would be alive today. But KC had done a really good job hiding her true feelings from everyone. Look at all the early LE interviews, everyone who knew KC said she would never hurt Caylee. Those are all the same people G&C would have been up against trying to get custody of Caylee.

C&FS can't remove a child from it's mother without cause, stealing from relatives is a bad thing but the A's had always fixed it so LE was not involved. Having no job, again not a reason to remove a child. I have worked with families who have done things you and I would see as horrific and cause to lose a child forever, but the courts are set up to keep families together. A couple of parenting classes, a letter showing good progress from a PO, the kid goes back. Our courts are not set up to care for children. Therefore the courts rely on parents, even bad ones.

Excellent post. I have said before that, even if the grandparents could have foreseen the tragedy that occurred, which I doubt anyone could have, there would have been little they could have done. Stealing, lying, refusing to work, etc, are not enough to remove a child from his or her parents. Some people here have mentioned that Caylee was brought to wild sex and drug parties. That may have been enough to catch the systems attention but it also would not have been enough for the parents to retain custody. casey would prbably be offered what's known as voluntary services, and that is it. By the way, I have yet to see any real evidence that Caylee was hauled to wild sex and drug parties. There may be one photo with her at a party but nowhere was there evidence that sex and drugs were occurring there.
To take a child from a home, you basically need one of the following: Bruises, a filthy, dangerous house, a child who is not going to school if school-aged, a child not getting enough to eat, or with a filthy or inappropriately clothed, evidenc e of sexual abuse, or evidence that the parent put the child in dsanger of imminent harm, such as by locking them in a car unattended. We may all have our suspicions of what casey did with Caylee, but there is no real evidence that she neglected or abused her until the end. And, as missmybaby so eloquently stated, casey would have had a ton of people attesting to what a wonderful, attentive and loving mother casey was to Caylee. I don't think there was much anyone could have done without a crystal ball to stop casey from killing her baby.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 01:43 AM
OneLostGirl- I am beginning to wonder if my mother had a daughter that I don't know about! Sounds like you are describing my mother. Boy how i wish you and I could have a long private pow wow. I call my mother a "force of nature". Hey, we survived sister. doogiesgirl

:blowkiss: And HOW! LOL.

My mom is doing great now... well, great for her that is. After her husband killed himself she had nowhere to go (burned bridges, ya know?!) and I moved her down to SC to live with me with the condition that she go off her "meds" (Oxycontin and vicoden), attend a partial hospitalization program (5 hours a day outpatient in a psych hospital) HEAVY in DBT and go on psych meds. It's been about 4 years now and the change in her is AMAZING! She no longer threatens suicide for every bad hair day, she has stayed off the pills, (though she is on methadone but it's better than the other crap she was on) and she rarely fakes illness anymore.. and sometimes when she has, she is willing to admit it which is HUGE (as I'm sure you know!). She is still pretty critical of me sometimes but in that "sweet way" that they do, ya know? So I get "sweet" right back when I look at her and call her her own mothers name! ;) shuts her up every time! LOL

It makes me happy to hear of others surviving these kinds of parents.. and always, always hopeful for others like us who may still be stuck in the same situation.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:01 AM
Excellent post. I have said before that, even if the grandparents could have foreseen the tragedy that occurred, which I doubt anyone could have, there would have been little they could have done. Stealing, lying, refusing to work, etc, are not enough to remove a child from his or her parents. Some people here have mentioned that Caylee was brought to wild sex and drug parties. That may have been enough to catch the systems attention but it also would not have been enough for the parents to retain custody. casey would prbably be offered what's known as voluntary services, and that is it. By the way, I have yet to see any real evidence that Caylee was hauled to wild sex and drug parties. There may be one photo with her at a party but nowhere was there evidence that sex and drugs were occurring there.
To take a child from a home, you basically need one of the following: Bruises, a filthy, dangerous house, a child who is not going to school if school-aged, a child not getting enough to eat, or with a filthy or inappropriately clothed, evidenc e of sexual abuse, or evidence that the parent put the child in dsanger of imminent harm, such as by locking them in a car unattended. We may all have our suspicions of what casey did with Caylee, but there is no real evidence that she neglected or abused her until the end. And, as missmybaby so eloquently stated, casey would have had a ton of people attesting to what a wonderful, attentive and loving mother casey was to Caylee. I don't think there was much anyone could have done without a crystal ball to stop casey from killing her baby.


Oh, I agree 100%... they didn't cause this death unless they themselves murdered the child. but had they been proper parents when it mattered- before the real BAD stuff all began there is no way she'd have thought she could simply get away with it.. letting it carry on for a month. She was taught by not only WATCHING Cindy do the same (minus the stealing, that we know of) but because they allowed her to get away with lying, stealing, manipulating and guilting they handed her the ability to control their entire household and that she did! That they could have stopped and in turn ALL of their lives would be very different, including Caylee's.

I get that not everyone like Casey has parents like Cindy and George. I know that good, honest, loving parents can and do end up with personality disordered children, despite their very best efforts. I simply do not think that is this case in this situation!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:08 AM
I am the daughter of a sociopath. I haven't read any clear-cut evidence that it's passed generationally. None of my sibs are sociopaths; however, one does have a son who is.

That son was raised in the same home as my sociopath father, who was his father figure.

When examining the nature v. nurture aspects of personality disorders, it's pretty clear that some people are genetically predisposed. Being raised by someone conscienceless (in other words, taught the tricks of the trade) surely plays into it.

I don't know why my sibs and I aren't sociopaths. I do know that we each have our own issues, some bigger, some smaller. None of us escaped unscathed---but no, it's not clearly passed from one generation to the next.


You got lucky, all of us here at WS who lived with and were raised by these kinds of people got lucky (when compared to Casey) ya know?

I'm glad ya made it through! :blowkiss: - you can educate our society in ways a shrink with his text books and "statistics" never could!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:10 AM
It was hard to capture just the one frame of the video. This was the famous "Cindy wielding the bat on the driveway" episode. They were both quite distraught that protesters were bugging them that night. But George was clearly the aggressor, Cindy the appeaser/Joan of Arc martyr. And then seconds later, he was hosing down the crowd with that look on his face.

omg lol, I remember that one!!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:14 AM
Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

no no, I wasn't talking about the video. I was refering to the pictures of George and Cindy in the front yard that Debs had posted.

ITA that it does look like that is when things seemed to have clicked into place for Cindy.. that day, in that video that was just released.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:32 AM
One has to look at the history to really get the picture about George.
My look at it: George became a cop. Great!!
Cindy wants him to own his own business like his father...great chance for unlimited money for family. yeah!
George quits Law and starts his oun business. Cindy says yeah!!!
George fails at his own business...money problems begin...they move to florida...George never recovers and Cindy resents him for not making it.
George becomes the butt of Cindy's jokes and she involves both kids in the fun. This was wrong and where this family sours. years later they all hate George but Cindy won't divorce him cause he would get money...For Cindy it is all about money instead of health. George can't say anything because he has no rights anymore and they have told him that over and over again. So Cindy out with the protestors is because it is her house and george has no say... Weird dynamics to say the least but I know them and more.

I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:34 AM
:clap:

Reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw Quote:

"If you must hold yourself up as an object lesson, hold yourself up as a

warning, and not as an example"

Absolutely! I always say that even if I'm good for only one thing in this life it is being a good "bad" example!

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 02:42 AM
I’m coming late to this thread and have not read anymore than the last few posts so I may be saying something that has already been mentioned.

When parents discipline a child it causes the parent to have to also not being able to do what they want to do or like to do. So out of selfishness on the parents part they do not follow through with whatever punishment was chosen. This is one of the biggest mistakes that parents make.

Child is disciplined and the punishment is not allowed to ride bike for a week. Child whines and is up parents butt and parent does not get the ‘break’ of having their child out riding their bike so child is underfoot 24/7.
So to make it easier on parent, they allow child to ride bike after 3 days just so they can get that ‘break’ that are used to getting.
The child should be learning that way you say is what is it is no if and or butts.
Lesson the child learns…Annoy parent long enough and loud enough I will get out of my punishment and get what I want.

For someone who always has to appear perfect to the outside world you can not tell your neighbor that you have to turn down an invitation to go out with them on Saturday night because you have grounded your child and need to stay home. Instead of taking additional time explaining to child that because of their actions you also have to stay home; it’s called healthy shame; you cancel the child’s punishment so you can now go and you make a bid deal out how they should feel so lucky that so and so called to invite you out.

The child should be learning that their actions also impact others around them and that the world does not revolve because of them.
Lesson the child learns instead….What parent says is not as important as what parent looks like to others and child now has been shown a way to control you actions.

It starts with little things, the cookie before a meal even though 9 times out of 10 it is not allowed, just so you can get dinner ready without listening to the endless chatter of your toddler. It progresses to staying up hours past a decent bedtime because of the 100 times of “I want a glass of water”, “I can’t sleep”, while you are trying to sit for just one hour and watch something on TV, read a book or study. Before you know it your teenager is still not home at 3:00AM and you have no idea where they are, who their with or what they are doing.

The recipe for delinquency in teenagers starts when they are toddlers unless there is some type of major event or upheaval in the home that causes a boatload of stress and is not handled as its needs to be at a later stage. Now add any kind of mental disorder, either with one or both of the parents or the child, learned behavior from dysfunction upbringing of the adults now add any addictions, abuse or neglect to the mix and you have the makings of a monster.

The Anthony’s are people who will be sited in case studies for years to come. Hopefully some people will see the errors of their ways with how they handle their own children and will seek out help. Maybe that will be one positive thing that may come out of this tragic and sad death of Caylee

For me, I just had to make sure I did nothing that my adoptive parents did and that pretty well assured me my son would have a better parent. LOL
Well, it took a promise I made to myself one long dark cold night I would never ever do or be like them. With a lot of tears and hard work, plain old teeth gritting determination things turned out not to bad.

RR0004
01-17-2009, 02:50 AM
I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.
...and I thought that Baez may have been behind that...like who is the weakest link? Who would be most likely to tell the truth? Who do you fear the most (meaning they don't buy your bs)? Of course, all this is disguised as a "meeting".
And she did throw it in her mother's face because her mother wasn't behaving like she wanted her to. I felt for Cindy, but IMO she's heard it all before. I think there was a vicious cycle of abuse going on in that home.

RR0004
01-17-2009, 02:56 AM
Oh, Shadow, how right you are. I'm sorry that life hasn't always been kind to you. Your son is very lucky to have you.

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 02:58 AM
...and I thought that Baez may have been behind that...like who is the weakest link? Who would be most likely to tell the truth? Who do you fear the most (meaning they don't buy your bs)? Of course, all this is disguised as a "meeting".
And she did throw it in her mother's face because her mother wasn't behaving like she wanted her to. I felt for Cindy, but IMO she's heard it all before. I think there was a vicious cycle of abuse going on in that home.

I thought that Casey choose George because she felt that he would be controlled by Cindy. No need to worry about daddy saying anything becasue mom well has his in a lock box. Of course Cindy took it as a personal attack since that is the way she has always does since she thinks it is also always about her..
I see the dynamic as Cindy is the the only one who could hand out punishment or say anything bad about others. George is the whipping post that Cindy shares with Casey and Lee sometimes, when she wants to or when it serves her purpose.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 02:58 AM
Most kids who are screw-ups at 13 probably don't have 1/4 the reasons you present. Being 13 is reason enough!! Having all the other situations you were living with just makes it that much harder to be 13! To be very honest, I can't imagine being 13 and going through everything else you describe and actually surviving it.

2 out of my 3 kids did all the dumbest stuff they ever went through at 13/14 yrs old. One got into the occasional fights at school, the other got arrested for shop lifting. Both turned out fine. The oldest, who was a pretty great 13 yo is the one who ended up having BPD.

It's a pot shoot. We never know, any of us when mental illness is going to strike. I think we're luckier now than 40 years ago, a family member with mental illness was never discussed, so if there was a family history of it, it was well buried. Each generation was on their own.

My dad's younger brother died from a self inflicted gun shot to the head. Story was my uncle was cleaning his gun when it went off. At 5, never being around guns, having no idea what this entailed, I knew something about the story wasn't right. When I was 30, I discovered my uncle had severe mental illness from the time he was a teenager. Knowing what I knew by then it sounded like bi polar disorder. But as a real diagnosis, we'll never know.

G0d how I wish i'd done my worst stuff at 13 LOL.

You are correct- I agree with you totally, we never do know who is "hard-wired" for this! But IMO that's why each of us, as parents must do everything in our power to make sure we teach our kids right from wrong and consistantly hold them accountable for the choices they make when they are young. It's our JOB to teach them about morals and values and responsibilities. If we give them all of that and it happens anyway, we know without a doubt that they were given the tools in which to know what is expected of them in the world.

I'm not normally a parent blamer- in any sense! I'm HUGE on the fact that regardless of who raised us or what mental illness one may have been dx'd with, unless you are "insane"(as in Andrea Yates and even still, I STILL think she should never be let out!) you choose your behaviors.. and I believe Casey indeed knowingly chose to kill her daughter. I have been posting here since like 2004 and this is the only case that I have followed that I felt the parents had a hand in creating the monser we see before us.

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 03:01 AM
Oh, Shadow, how right you are. I'm sorry that life hasn't always been kind to you. Your son is very lucky to have you.

Yea, well some things just are what they are. It's what you make of them.

I don't know who said it or remember where I saw it but many many years ago it was tacked to a cork board in a truck stop.
Your are the sum total of all of different parts of your life. Make them add up good.

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 03:09 AM
G0d how I wish i'd done my worst stuff at 13 LOL.

You are correct- I agree with you totally, we never do know who is "hard-wired" for this! But IMO that's why each of us, as parents must do everything in our power to make sure we teach our kids right from wrong and consistantly hold them accountable for the choices they make when they are young. It's our JOB to teach them about morals and values and responsibilities. If we give them all of that and it happens anyway, we know without a doubt that they were given the tools in which to know what is expected of them in the world.

I'm not normally a parent blamer- in any sense! I'm HUGE on the fact that regardless of who raised us or what mental illness one may have been dx'd with, unless you are "insane"(as in Andrea Yates and even still, I STILL think she should never be let out!) you choose your behaviors.. and I believe Casey indeed knowingly chose to kill her daughter. I have been posting here since like 2004 and this is the only case that I have followed that I felt the parents had a hand in creating the monser we see before us.


bolded by me
ITA. If you take your responsibilty as a parent and despite a good healthy proper upbring you start to see behavior in a child that does not seem to be right you have a much better chance at helping them if it is a mental illness or behavioral disorder get a grip on it with counseling or meds than doing what the A's did with Casey.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 03:10 AM
I’m coming late to this thread and have not read anymore than the last few posts so I may be saying something that has already been mentioned.

When parents discipline a child it causes the parent to have to also not being able to do what they want to do or like to do. So out of selfishness on the parents part they do not follow through with whatever punishment was chosen. This is one of the biggest mistakes that parents make.

Child is disciplined and the punishment is not allowed to ride bike for a week. Child whines and is up parents butt and parent does not get the ‘break’ of having their child out riding their bike so child is underfoot 24/7.
So to make it easier on parent, they allow child to ride bike after 3 days just so they can get that ‘break’ that are used to getting.
The child should be learning that way you say is what is it is no if and or butts.
Lesson the child learns…Annoy parent long enough and loud enough I will get out of my punishment and get what I want.

For someone who always has to appear perfect to the outside world you can not tell your neighbor that you have to turn down an invitation to go out with them on Saturday night because you have grounded your child and need to stay home. Instead of taking additional time explaining to child that because of their actions you also have to stay home; it’s called healthy shame; you cancel the child’s punishment so you can now go and you make a bid deal out how they should feel so lucky that so and so called to invite you out.

The child should be learning that their actions also impact others around them and that the world does not revolve because of them.
Lesson the child learns instead….What parent says is not as important as what parent looks like to others and child now has been shown a way to control you actions.

It starts with little things, the cookie before a meal even though 9 times out of 10 it is not allowed, just so you can get dinner ready without listening to the endless chatter of your toddler. It progresses to staying up hours past a decent bedtime because of the 100 times of “I want a glass of water”, “I can’t sleep”, while you are trying to sit for just one hour and watch something on TV, read a book or study. Before you know it your teenager is still not home at 3:00AM and you have no idea where they are, who their with or what they are doing.

The recipe for delinquency in teenagers starts when they are toddlers unless there is some type of major event or upheaval in the home that causes a boatload of stress and is not handled as its needs to be at a later stage. Now add any kind of mental disorder, either with one or both of the parents or the child, learned behavior from dysfunction upbringing of the adults now add any addictions, abuse or neglect to the mix and you have the makings of a monster.

The Anthony’s are people who will be sited in case studies for years to come. Hopefully some people will see the errors of their ways with how they handle their own children and will seek out help. Maybe that will be one positive thing that may come out of this tragic and sad death of Caylee

For me, I just had to make sure I did nothing that my adoptive parents did and that pretty well assured me my son would have a better parent. LOL
Well, it took a promise I made to myself one long dark cold night I would never ever do or be like them. With a lot of tears and hard work, plain old teeth gritting determination things turned out not to bad.

Excellent post!!! Excellent and so very true! :clap::clap:

I'm happy you made it out intact! :blowkiss:

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 03:17 AM
Excellent post!!! Excellent and so very true! :clap::clap:

I'm happy you made it out intact! :blowkiss:

Thanks, I have read your posts and know you had many a long cold dark night too.

gitana1
01-17-2009, 03:32 AM
Oh, I agree 100%... they didn't cause this death unless they themselves murdered the child. but had they been proper parents when it mattered- before the real BAD stuff all began there is no way she'd have thought she could simply get away with it.. letting it carry on for a month. She was taught by not only WATCHING Cindy do the same (minus the stealing, that we know of) but because they allowed her to get away with lying, stealing, manipulating and guilting they handed her the ability to control their entire household and that she did! That they could have stopped and in turn ALL of their lives would be very different, including Caylee's.

I get that not everyone like Casey has parents like Cindy and George. I know that good, honest, loving parents can and do end up with personality disordered children, despite their very best efforts. I simply do not think that is this case in this situation!

I agree with you. And, I do not think GA and CA were wonderful, loving parents. Over and over again I have said they appear very dysfunctional - CA with a personality disorder, likely BPD, and GA the typical, ineffectual and whipped husband who is often attracted to a woman like that. For sure, they created a monster. But to me, they are not to blame for what happened because they had and have no clue that they did anything wrong in the raising and enabling of their kid, they lacked the ability to raise her differently, they had no clarity as to the true nature of how deeply distrubed casey is and no one that knew casey could have predicted she would acutally kill her child, even her own family. Eevn if they knew how disturbed she is, there are tons of sociopaths, narcissists and spoiled enraged tryants in the world, but the majority do not kill.
Bottom line, how can we expect people as impaired as the Anthonys to know what to do? It's a vicious cycle: They created her because they are dysfunctional and they cannot realize what they have created and how to resolve it for the very same reason.
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 03:34 AM
I posted this another thread but it more belongs here. After watching the latest video release, I believe Casey is deranged. She has been able to mask it, but the killing has unleashed her madness. She will only get worse. I have worked on a psych unit (as a nurse, but by no means an expert) in the past and this video, imo, shows labile psychosis. And the killing may have actually caused a psychotic break. (Also, in my experience, lots of insane people may appear perfectly normal on the surface.)

All along, while being appalled at this case, I could never work up the hate toward her that many on the net have expressed. Something just didn't sit right with me. I don't believe she killed in the heinous manner of viscious killer. I think she has been veering toward insanity for along time now. Maybe the pregnancy unleashed it. I think she is a sad, pathetic figure who has probably blocked out the killing for now.

Insanity defense may be the only way to go, if the defense can grasp this.

I disagree as does every psych professional, behavior analyst & body language expert that has commented on this case after observing the same videos and interviews of Casey's behaviors that we have. While in jail the first time Casey was given (I believe) 2 psych evaluations, though they were probably not searching for a "diagnosis", but more likely just trying to asess her safety while in jail and then again before being bonded out. But any shrink worthy of his degree and license to practice medicine, would recognize signs of psychosis while performing even a "quicky" psych eval.

Though I do believe that now that Casey has "blood on her hands" it's too late- if she were to get away with this and get out of jail I believe she would kill again.

RR0004
01-17-2009, 03:40 AM
Yea, well some things just are what they are. It's what you make of them.

I don't know who said it or remember where I saw it but many many years ago it was tacked to a cork board in a truck stop.
Your are the sum total of all of different parts of your life. Make them add up good.
...and the people you meet along the way.
I've had considerable loss in my life, but find comfort in knowing that all my loved ones are still very much a part of my life because of how they touched me while here on earth.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 03:52 AM
I agree with you. And, I do not think GA and CA were wonderful, loving parents. Over and over again I have said they appear very dysfunctional - CA with a personality disorder, likely BPD, and GA the typical, ineffectual and whipped husband who is often attracted to a woman like that. For sure, they created a monster. But to me, they are not to blame for what happened because they had and have no clue that they did anything wrong in the raising and enabling of their kid, they lacked the ability to raise her differently, they had no clarity as to the true nature of how deeply distrubed casey is and no one that knew casey could have predicted she would acutally kill her child, even her own family. Eevn if they knew how disturbed she is, there are tons of sociopaths, narcissists and spoiled enraged tryants in the world, but the majority do not kill.
Bottom line, how can we expect people as impaired as the Anthonys to know what to do? It's a vicious cycle: They created her because they are dysfunctional and they cannot realize what they have created and how to resolve it for the very same reason.
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.

They are dysfunctional not mentally handicapped or void of understanding right from wrong or having common sense! Cindy certainly attended and graduated college just fine- held a job just fine.. she also has no police record from her supposed inability to control her actions. Their dysfunction only negativly effected their parenting abilities? Naw, sorry but such dysfunction does not work that way. Every relationship they formed (including employers, c0-workers, friends, lovers) would have been as "misguided" and troublesome if that were the case.

So I'm sorry, I disagree.. they very well DO have the ability to know what they were doing wrong... They knew enough to hide and lie to "outsiders" about not only their own behaviors but Casey's as well.