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OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 05:00 AM
Those were my observations as well. And to think that just a few days later, the monster was back in her house. :eek:

uh huh!! Sure says a lot about what kind of message they continue to choose to send their daughter even NOW that Cindy right before our very eyes appears to have realized just what her daughter is!

shadow of my mind
01-17-2009, 05:07 AM
...and the people you meet along the way.
I've had considerable loss in my life, but find comfort in knowing that all my loved ones are still very much a part of my life because of how they touched me while here on earth.

The memories that we hold of those who have at one time been part of our life, if good give us the strenght to make it throught another day and those, when bad give us a reason to try to make our own life better.

Being able to get to the point that you can now feel comfort instead of overwhelming grief says alot about your innerself. So many squander those memories on selfpity.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 05:17 AM
Watching the newly released video of an emotionally fragile Casey I can only wonder what might have happened had she not been bonded out shortly after that last visit with her parents. Would her anger and frustration intensified or decreased?

As long as mommy and daddy did what she instructed, played by HER rules, I believe her anger would have faded.

gitana1
01-17-2009, 05:26 AM
They are dysfunctional not mentally handicapped or void of understanding right from wrong or having common sense! Cindy certainly attended and graduated college just fine- held a job just fine.. she also has no police record from her supposed inability to control her actions. Their dysfunction only negativly effected their parenting abilities? Naw, sorry but such dysfunction does not work that way. Every relationship they formed (including employers, c0-workers, friends, lovers) would have been as "misguided" and troublesome if that were the case.

So I'm sorry, I disagree.. they very well DO have the ability to know what they were doing wrong... They knew enough to hide and lie to "outsiders" about not only their own behaviors but Casey's as well.

Understanding right from wrong does not translate to knowing how to be good parents or having common sense when it comes to their loved ones. This is a dysfunctional family. They do not know how to function as a family or relate to one another in a healthy way. That includes in their parenting. They see things in an impaired way. For example, if you told them about a situation with another family similar to the one they are in now, before casey killed Caylee, they would say:"My God, how horrible!" And have tons of things to say about how the family should have parented differently. They would never see themselves in that family. They see themselves as normal, functioning and healthy.
By the way, I know a few people with personality disorders and/or dysfunctional families that present a pretty good front to the public. It is quite possible to be a delusional mess about how wonderful one's hideous child is and how great they are parenting that child, and at the same time function normally at work or when dealing with others with whom they lack a close, family tie.
But, most people with personality disorders and families as dysfucntional as I think the Anthonys are, cannot keep it together well in general. And I acutally do not think that Anthonys have kept it together. I don't think they function well at all in life in general. Evidence to support that?: 1. GA and CA do not appear to have any real friends. 2. GA does not have a job. 3. It appears there have been marital problems, talk of divorce, gambling issues, etc., in that family. 4. It appears there may be a history of family estrangements in that family (Uncle Rick who disowned his son, possibly for good cause).
We do not know how CA is thought of at work. She may be thought of as a real nut. But, as I stated above, she could be impaired emotionally in her personal life and still hold it together professionally. The two do not always relate.
For example, I know a few nutty nurses who are capable of hiding who they are at work. One I know was a mother, the opposing side in a case I litigated, who abandoned her 9 year old son at her new boyfriend's house (she had been seeing the man for 3 months). She told the man to take the boy to a baseball game but did not return later that night as planned. She then showed up around midnight, where she confronted her frantic and crying child and worried boyfriend with a bag of the child's clothes, threw them at the boy and as he wailed, told him: "I don't want you anymore!" She told the man: "You keep him." The man eventually tracked down my client, the father, who had weekend visitation at that time. After over a year of litigation, including emergency hearings, psych evals, etc., it was discovered that the mom was an alcoholic with bi-polar disorder on Depakote. She kept fighting for her kid, all the while torturing him with bizarre ploys to make him hysterical so she could tape him and show how sad he was at Dad's house, until finally she told the Court to f%&* off, that she would no longer participate in evals or attend hearings and she lost custody. Dad has had the child for several years now and the mother simply stopped calling. Her younger son from a different marriage went into the system. But she always kept her job as a nurse at a very well-known hospital. No one there knew anything about her "problems". She is one example I have of several. So, I disagree that the Anthonys cannot be so impaired in their relationships and parenting that they do not know how to raise their kids properly, if they work, etc.
Finally, even if they knew exactly what they were doing by spoiling and enabling casey in the way they did, you did not address my other points that despite this, it would be a stretch to say that they could or should have predicted that casey would actually kill Caylee. Again, no one saw actual neglect, abuse, etc. They were just two grandparents who were tired of their errant, lying daughter leaving them the bulk of the responsibility for Caylee and did not quite know what to do about it.
P.S., It appears CA did acutally belatedly try, if what many of us feel happened on June 15 actually happened. Too little, too late. But the sad thing is that this confrontation may have been the catalyst for casey's eventual murder of her precious daughter.
The Anthonys screwed up but I still maintain that they never could have known how bad until now and that their delusions continue to prevent them from seeing what everyone else does.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 05:40 AM
Understanding right from wrong does not translate to knowing how to be good parents or having common sense when it comes to their loved ones. This is a dysfunctional family. They do not know how to function as a family or relate to one another in a healthy way. That includes in their parenting. They see things in an impaired way. For example, if you told them about a situation with another family similar to the one they are in now, before casey killed Caylee, they would say:"My God, how horrible!" And have tons of things to say about how the family should have parented differently. They would never see themselves in that family. They see themselves as normal, functioning and healthy.
By the way, I know a few people with personality disorders and/or dysfunctional families that present a pretty good front to the public. It is quite possible to be a delusional mess about how wonderful one's hideous child is and how great they are parenting that child, and at the same time function normally at work or when dealing with others with whom they lack a close, family tie.
But, most people with personality disorders and families as dysfucntional as I think the Anthonys are, cannot keep it together well in general. And I acutally do not think that Anthonys have kept it together. I don't think they function well at all in life in general. Evidence to support that?: 1. GA and CA do not appear to have any real friends. 2. GA does not have a job. 3. It appears there have been marital problems, talk of divorce, gambling issues, etc., in that family. 4. It appears there may be a history of family estrangements in that family (Uncle Rick who disowned his son, possibly for good cause).
We do not know how CA is thought of at work. She may be thought of as a real nut. But, as I stated above, she could be impaired emotionally in her personal life and still hold it together professionally. The two do not always relate.
For example, I know a few nutty nurses who are capable of hiding who they are at work. One I know was a mother, the opposing side in a case I litigated, who abandoned her 9 year old son at her new boyfriend's house (she had been seeing the man for 3 months). She told the man to take the boy to a baseball game but did not return later that night as planned. She then showed up around midnight, where she confronted her frantic and crying child and worried boyfriend with a bag of the child's clothes, threw them at the boy and as he wailed, told him: "I don't want you anymore!" She told the man: "You keep him." The man eventually tracked down my client, the father, who had weekend visitation at that time. After over a year of litigation, including emergency hearings, psych evals, etc., it was discovered that the mom was an alcoholic with bi-polar disorder on Depakote. She kept fighting for her kid, all the while torturing him with bizarre ploys to make him hysterical so she could tape him and show how sad he was at Dad's house, until finally she told the Court to f%&* off, that she would no longer participate in evals or attend hearings and she lost custody. Dad has had the child for several years now and the mother simply stopped calling. Her younger son from a different marriage went into the system. But she always kept her job as a nurse at a very well-known hospital. No one there knew anything about her "problems". She is one example I have of several. So, I disagree that the Anthonys cannot be so impaired in their relationships and parenting that they do not know how to raise their kids properly, if they work, etc.
Finally, even if they knew exactly what they were doing by spoiling and enabling casey in the way they did, you did not address my other points that despite this, it would be a stretch to say that they could or should have predicted that casey would actually kill Caylee. Again, no one saw actual neglect, abuse, etc. They were just two grandparents who were tired of their errant, lying daughter leaving them the bulk of the responsibility for Caylee and did not quite know what to do about it.
P.S., It appears CA did acutally belatedly try, if what many of us feel happened on June 15 actually happened. Too little, too late. But the sad thing is that this confrontation may have been the catalyst for casey's eventual murder of her precious daughter.
The Anthonys screwed up but I still maintain that they never could have known how bad until now and that their delusions continue to prevent them from seeing what everyone else does.

I didn't address your point that they could not know that Casey would kill her daughter because I have always held the same belief and have said so time and again (goodness, tonight alone I have posted at LEAST 2 times that I do not feel they are responsible for Casey's killing her daughter) I didn't realize I was supposed to say it again to you specificly.. I figured I have made my opinion on that part quite clear.

ETA. Didn't you agree with all of the posters that "saw" in that video Cindy's realizing what her daughter truly is? It seems to me she sees and accepted plenty... right there on that video!

mitzi
01-17-2009, 06:00 AM
There are different types and degrees of dysfunction. Obviously you were somewhat lucky- you had another parent and that other parent cared. You had family, outsiders who cared and obviously stepped up. Most are not so lucky.

The nature of what I see in Cindy, and what my own mother is like, you absolutely do suffer- you have no choice because you are belittled and ignored and neglected emotionally, you are taught you cannot BE anything good, ever. You are always, always, even when they are in a loving mood, not good enough or smart enough or pretty enough. Nothing you choose to do (without their stepping in and controling the situation) is good or just.

Your emotions never matter, nobody cares how you feel or what you want.. it's all about the disordered parent, always! And sometimes out of the blue, because they are having issues, you don't have to do anything to provoke it and suddenly you are hated. If in that moment they decide you are "just like" their spouse or their boss or whoever- watch it! We are there to serve their needs, their "drug of choice", their supply. They need us and the way they treat us in order to feel anything good about themselves. And they do it all with a "smile" on their face to appear normal and loving to outsiders.

WOW, OLG, you really have your finger on the pulse! I so admire you for the hard journey you have had to get to where you are. I read your posts and truly see exactly what you state. I sure hope you are in a line of work where you can use your life skills and knowledge to help others. I know so much more because of you and several others on this forum. Just wanted to say thank you for explaining things so clearly to those of us who haven't walked in your shoes. :blowkiss:

mitzi
01-17-2009, 06:03 AM
Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster:eek: for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

ITA and also there are times when Cindy puts her fingers of one hand to her mouth or touches her mouth, where it feels to me like she "sees the monster", and can almost vomit, and her fingers are trying to keep it in.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 01:06 PM
The recipe for delinquency in teenagers starts when they are toddlers unless there is some type of major event or upheaval in the home that causes a boatload of stress and is not handled as its needs to be at a later stage. Now add any kind of mental disorder, either with one or both of the parents or the child, learned behavior from dysfunction upbringing of the adults now add any addictions, abuse or neglect to the mix and you have the makings of a monster.

The Anthony’s are people who will be sited in case studies for years to come. Hopefully some people will see the errors of their ways with how they handle their own children and will seek out help. Maybe that will be one positive thing that may come out of this tragic and sad death of Caylee

For me, I just had to make sure I did nothing that my adoptive parents did and that pretty well assured me my son would have a better parent. LOL
Well, it took a promise I made to myself one long dark cold night I would never ever do or be like them. With a lot of tears and hard work, plain old teeth gritting determination things turned out not to bad.

(respectfully snipped) ITA w above, esp bolded!!!


I don't want to break your heart, my bird friend! :blowkiss:

I want people to realize the damage they cause their children, I want people to think before they choose to skip over teaching their children right from wrong, or not holding them accountable simply because the childs reaction may cause havoc in the household. I want people to know that Casey's behaviors began as a way to cope in that household.. They continued and worsened because her parents, the people who were supposed to be in charge- obviously never, ever were in charge

(respectfully snipped) Agree 100% w above, you're preaching to the choir lol.

Brini
01-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Bold is mine-

ITA- they became a "team" in respect to disliking George.

In every disordered home, there is an "outcast." LA was the "good child," I think. he prolly also tried to peacemake between the two harridans.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 02:23 PM
I agree with you. And, I do not think GA and CA were wonderful, loving parents. Over and over again I have said they appear very dysfunctional - CA with a personality disorder, likely BPD, and GA the typical, ineffectual and whipped husband who is often attracted to a woman like that. For sure, they created a monster. But to me, they are not to blame for what happened because they had and have no clue that they did anything wrong in the raising and enabling of their kid, they lacked the ability to raise her differently, they had no clarity as to the true nature of how deeply distrubed casey is and no one that knew casey could have predicted she would acutally kill her child, even her own family. Eevn if they knew how disturbed she is, there are tons of sociopaths, narcissists and spoiled enraged tryants in the world, but the majority do not kill.
Bottom line, how can we expect people as impaired as the Anthonys to know what to do? It's a vicious cycle: They created her because they are dysfunctional and they cannot realize what they have created and how to resolve it for the very same reason.
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.

(bold mine)
I fully understand the importance of forgiveness. I have had to forgive the many painful, costly mistakes and poor parenting of my own childhood (no one simply handed me down an ounce of wisdom I assure you, and am fortunate to have survived--my brother sadly was not so fortunate). And to forgive myself for my own from which my children undoubtedly suffer. I just don't want to lose sight however that any who choose to have children need to assume responsibility for actually raising them by acquiring the necessary skills, and being prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. As we can see in the more extreme cases including the eg at hand, "innocent" blind stumbling by "inept" parents can have really grievous consequences. And to any parents w a similarly cavalier approach to parenting and rearing children to be accountable, truthful and responsible; or equally casual response to red flags, I would caution them they're just gambling the odds, w very high risk stakes, that the perfect storm conditions will not also occur in their own or their childrens' lives.

I say this because as we all know, and as w most everything, it inevitably boils down to personal responsibility and choices. Each parent is faced ultimately w a choice, as others here illustrate so well, of either searching his or her own past and determining whether those ways have worked; and wherever their own existing parenting methods fail, to exercise the option at any time of examining their heart, reconsidering their values, reordering their priorities, restrategizing, seeking out new skills, tools--and intervention if necessary. Or there is the option of excusing, looking the other way, ignoring the warning signs, scapegoating, shifting blame or perpetuating the patterns. Sadly this can be rather easily accomplished by the most "well intentioned" of parents--who before they will recognize or admit any fault, look inwardly or in the mirror to do any self-evaluation, choose to blame and heap pain by sacrificing others for self in a lifelong strategy of self-preservation. That strategy may include opting eg to appear righteous rather than become righthearted. And is largely determined by one's beliefs, values and priorities.

Generational cycles can be broken--at any time, by any who choose instead to do an honest self-analysis, adopt healthier patterns, to make the sacrifices (as Shadow reminds us), better choices (as One demonstrates so well), and by sowing healthier seeds in the lives of their own children (as I am constantly endeavoring). As One, Shadow and others like them are continually demonstrating, it invariably falls upon every parent to scrutinize the errors and harmful practices of previous generations--and recognize in which ways they can improve or raise their children differently.

There's another proverb that warns, 'He who covers his transgressions won't prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.' What I see in this particular family is an awful lot of covering up--and without a doubt, a really poor working definition of love, in deadly motion. Once again, every parent who loves their child disciplines them. And where our own consistent discipline or appropriate boundaries fail, then we need to have the compassion and humility to seek outside counsel or intervention. I'm unaware to date of any attempts by the A's to impose any consequences or anything more than idle threats for KC's unruly, irresponsible, reckless behavior nor any reports of seeking outside help (which would expose laundry or skeletons w/in family), nor bring her under authority. Instead, even as this pattern culminates in tragedy, we see CA failing to follow thru and still insisting as usual on "handling" it as she always has... by scurrying to wash the dirty laundry, denying any problem ("There was an old pizza rotting in that bag, you know how hot it's been!") and perpetuating her daughter's victimhood. Hopefully some of us w children can learn from these grievous egs of parenting mistakes, and not have to make them all ourselves! JMHUO

shivs
01-17-2009, 02:46 PM
These are all such good posts today. I so wish I could not relate, but I can.

There is not a 'smilie' to express my feelings right now.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 03:18 PM
And she did throw it in her mother's face because her mother wasn't behaving like she wanted her to. I felt for Cindy, but IMO she's heard it all before. I think there was a vicious cycle of abuse going on in that home.

ITA As KC's outrageous behavior and attitude went unchecked, and CA/GA chose to tiptoe around her and handle w kid gloves, the more abusive and out of control she became.


...and the people you meet along the way.
I've had considerable loss in my life, but find comfort in knowing that all my loved ones are still very much a part of my life because of how they touched me while here on earth.

This touched my heart. I've had tremendous losses in my life too, but 'count them all joy' for the priceless wisdom I've gained, and loved ones who've endured, along the way...


The memories that we hold of those who have at one time been part of our life, if good give us the strenght to make it throught another day and those, when bad give us a reason to try to make our own life better.

Being able to get to the point that you can now feel comfort instead of overwhelming grief says alot about your innerself. So many squander those memories on selfpity.

I have memory disorder (due to CNS lupus) and among the most painful of losses is the loss of many memories. Very remote long term memories are intact, but past five years (of brain inflammation, seizures etc), not so much... Makes it tough to "build" a life or foundation, but I do not forget principles (ie of wisdom), and love what someone once said (I forget who lolol), "I may not always remember people's words, but I remember how they made me feel." So true. Besides, some things are better forgotten, one can't hold onto grudges lol. Or as my mom (gotta love her) is fond of saying, I can own just one DVD in my collection--and hide my own Easter eggs. ;) God bless her. And God bless you.


These are all such good posts today. I so wish I could not relate, but I can.

There is not a 'smilie' to express my feelings right now.

Me either. So let's try this...

:grouphug:

Mysticj
01-17-2009, 05:15 PM
I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.

Agree with almost all. Exception George - She chose George because he was being truethful and she needed to rake him in and what better way than It is you I want.His face when she said that said it all.He was elated and it sealed the deal...He started lying too.....

gitana1
01-17-2009, 05:25 PM
(bold mine)
I fully understand the importance of forgiveness. I have had to forgive the many painful, costly mistakes and poor parenting of my own childhood (no one simply handed me down an ounce of wisdom I assure you, and am fortunate to have survived--my brother sadly was not so fortunate). And to forgive myself for my own from which my children undoubtedly suffer. I just don't want to lose sight however that any who choose to have children need to assume responsibility for actually raising them by acquiring the necessary skills, and being prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. As we can see in the more extreme cases including the eg at hand, "innocent" blind stumbling by "inept" parents can have really grievous consequences. And to any parents w a similarly cavalier approach to parenting and rearing children to be accountable, truthful and responsible; or equally casual response to red flags, I would caution them they're just gambling the odds, w very high risk stakes, that the perfect storm conditions will not also occur in their own or their childrens' lives.

I say this because as we all know, and as w most everything, it inevitably boils down to personal responsibility and choices. Each parent is faced ultimately w a choice, as others here illustrate so well, of either searching his or her own past and determining whether those ways have worked; and wherever their own existing parenting methods fail, to exercise the option at any time of examining their heart, reconsidering their values, reordering their priorities, restrategizing, seeking out new skills, tools--and intervention if necessary. Or there is the option of excusing, looking the other way, ignoring the warning signs, scapegoating, shifting blame or perpetuating the patterns. Sadly this can be rather easily accomplished by the most "well intentioned" of parents--who before they will recognize or admit any fault, look inwardly or in the mirror to do any self-evaluation, choose to blame and heap pain by sacrificing others for self in a lifelong strategy of self-preservation. That strategy may include opting eg to appear righteous rather than become righthearted. And is largely determined by one's beliefs, values and priorities.

Generational cycles can be broken--at any time, by any who choose instead to do an honest self-analysis, adopt healthier patterns, to make the sacrifices (as Shadow reminds us), better choices (as One demonstrates so well), and by sowing healthier seeds in the lives of their own children (as I am constantly endeavoring). As One, Shadow and others like them are continually demonstrating, it invariably falls upon every parent to scrutinize the errors and harmful practices of previous generations--and recognize in which ways they can improve or raise their children differently.

There's another proverb that warns, 'He who covers his transgressions won't prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.' What I see in this particular family is an awful lot of covering up--and without a doubt, a really poor working definition of love, in deadly motion. Once again, every parent who loves their child disciplines them. And where our own consistent discipline or appropriate boundaries fail, then we need to have the compassion and humility to seek outside counsel or intervention. I'm unaware to date of any attempts by the A's to impose any consequences or anything more than idle threats for KC's unruly, irresponsible, reckless behavior nor any reports of seeking outside help (which would expose laundry or skeletons w/in family), nor bring her under authority. Instead, even as this pattern culminates in tragedy, we see CA failing to follow thru and still insisting as usual on "handling" it as she always has... by scurrying to wash the dirty laundry, denying any problem ("There was an old pizza rotting in that bag, you know how hot it's been!") and perpetuating her daughter's victimhood. Hopefully some of us w children can learn from these grievous egs of parenting mistakes, and not have to make them all ourselves! JMHUO

I totally hear ya' and I agree. The problem is, however, that it is normally only rational and mature people who conduct the kind of self-analysis necessary to good parenting, BEFORE they decide to have a child. It is the people with serious problems who have no understanding of self-analysis, of normal logic or who can even see how screwed up they actually are, who pop em' out with no foresight as to whether it is a good decision or not. That's why our foster care systems are so clogged. Society is asking people to make better decisions for themselves and their children, or potential children, while knowing that many of those people have no ability or skills to do so. So, what's the answer?

kageykaren
01-17-2009, 05:34 PM
We don't have any info. from school records that shows KC may have had some brief therapy. The talking heads on NG after seeing the latest jail video agreed with each other that the communication going on between kC and her parents seem to show that they may have all 3 been in counseling by the vocabulary they were using. Some of the words and behavior between the 3 seemed like they were familiar with having had these types of conversations in the past.

gitana1
01-17-2009, 05:51 PM
I didn't address your point that they could not know that Casey would kill her daughter because I have always held the same belief and have said so time and again (goodness, tonight alone I have posted at LEAST 2 times that I do not feel they are responsible for Casey's killing her daughter) I didn't realize I was supposed to say it again to you specificly.. I figured I have made my opinion on that part quite clear.

ETA. Didn't you agree with all of the posters that "saw" in that video Cindy's realizing what her daughter truly is? It seems to me she sees and accepted plenty... right there on that video!

Yes, but the quote of your that I posted about seems to say that the Anthonys ARE to be blamed in a way because of their poor parenting, because they do know right from wrong. While I agree that they created her, I don't think ther is much they could have done to prevent that because of their dysfunction and the resultant lack of clarity and understanding that they have. They should have done differently but they could not because they don't know that they should have done differently and would certainly not have then.
Also, I do agree with certain posters who saw that CA realized who her daughter truly is. I think this family has lots of those moments, but those moments are then immediately squelched by their inability to know how to deal with such a realization. The horror is too great and they lack the skills to know how to deal with that horror. Thus, the utter delusion sets in, over and over again evidenced by their illogical support of their daughter. I just have a view of how things look from their eyes. Bizarre, tragic and ultimately hopeless.

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 07:13 PM
I totally hear ya' and I agree. The problem is, however, that it is normally only rational and mature people who conduct the kind of self-analysis necessary to good parenting, BEFORE they decide to have a child. It is the people with serious problems who have no understanding of self-analysis, of normal logic or who can even see how screwed up they actually are, who pop em' out with no foresight as to whether it is a good decision or not. That's why our foster care systems are so clogged. Society is asking people to make better decisions for themselves and their children, or potential children, while knowing that many of those people have no ability or skills to do so. So, what's the answer?

:praying:


Yes, but the quote of your that I posted about seems to say that the Anthonys ARE to be blamed in a way because of their poor parenting, because they do know right from wrong. While I agree that they created her, I don't think ther is much they could have done to prevent that because of their dysfunction and the resultant lack of clarity and understanding that they have. They should have done differently but they could not because they don't know that they should have done differently and would certainly not have then. Also, I do agree with certain posters who saw that CA realized who her daughter truly is. I think this family has lots of those moments, but those moments are then immediately squelched by their inability to know how to deal with such a realization. The horror is too great and they lack the skills to know how to deal with that horror. Thus, the utter delusion sets in, over and over again evidenced by their illogical support of their daughter. I just have a view of how things look from their eyes. Bizarre, tragic and ultimately hopeless.

But the question is WHY they "don't know." Nobody knows... until they care enough to figure it out. Quite honestly so much of the "ignorance" or lack of understanding by parents can arguably be attributed, or boiled down to simple laziness, complacency, and/or pride. We all have lightbulb 'moments' as parents, but some of us choose to intervene and do something--and others simply look the other way. Our children all reach an age when as teens they begin "hating," and some of us endure the hating--while others prefer to be their kid's friend instead of act like their parent. We've all had the opportunity to see our children thru someone else's (a teacher's, a principal's, a neighbor's) eyes, and some of us are willing to hear, and appreciate, those insights--while others react defensively and make it all about them. We all have a chance as parents to admit, hopefully to ourselves if no one else, that what we've been doing is not working and wake up before it's too late--as others go on stubbornly clinging to denials and excuses. Where there is deception there is continual conflict. Yet the A's avoided doing anything about it, never once holding KC accountable even after her lying became compulsive and her stealing victimized everyone in their entire family--and beyond. Prior to this tragedy I guess from my perspective, as a 49 year-old single parent of 4 children (the youngest 6), w a chronic illness, no spouse, nor even my earning ability now, CA's situation w her health and at least another parent--w whom to find strength in agreement--was enviable. IMO unselfish parents w compassion and humility get over their own shock or trauma and respond promptly and swiftly to small warning signs early on--while others it seems simply shake their heads years later after everything has imploded and wonder, "Where did we go wrong...?" (Or in GA's own famous words,"Maybe we shouldn't have been so domineering..." Yep, that's it GA... you've got it all figured out... sigh) JMO

:waitasec:

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:18 PM
In every disordered home, there is an "outcast." LA was the "good child," I think. he prolly also tried to peacemake between the two harridans.

No kidding. he was called to the house that night by poor George.. he went into to Casey's bedroom to talk to her and sent Cindy outside.. he said Casey wouldn't respond to Cindy anything but defensivly and angrily. Lee was SOO the peacekeeper, I agree, girl! Momma's boy- unless he wasn't. unless he couldn't fix things fast enough or good enough (you know what I mean?!)

I feel very bad for Lee- and now he is back home.

evergreen
01-17-2009, 08:27 PM
I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.

I think she chose George because he is a soft touch and non confrontational. He also showers her with Supply, the kind she likes. It was just an easier path for her to take. I do see the power struggle between her and Mom and the enmeshment is so easy to spot.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:32 PM
(bold mine)
I fully understand the importance of forgiveness. I have had to forgive the many painful, costly mistakes and poor parenting of my own childhood (no one simply handed me down an ounce of wisdom I assure you, and am fortunate to have survived--my brother sadly was not so fortunate). And to forgive myself for my own from which my children undoubtedly suffer. I just don't want to lose sight however that any who choose to have children need to assume responsibility for actually raising them by acquiring the necessary skills, and being prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. As we can see in the more extreme cases including the eg at hand, "innocent" blind stumbling by "inept" parents can have really grievous consequences. And to any parents w a similarly cavalier approach to parenting and rearing children to be accountable, truthful and responsible; or equally casual response to red flags, I would caution them they're just gambling the odds, w very high risk stakes, that the perfect storm conditions will not also occur in their own or their childrens' lives.

I say this because as we all know, and as w most everything, it inevitably boils down to personal responsibility and choices. Each parent is faced ultimately w a choice, as others here illustrate so well, of either searching his or her own past and determining whether those ways have worked; and wherever their own existing parenting methods fail, to exercise the option at any time of examining their heart, reconsidering their values, reordering their priorities, restrategizing, seeking out new skills, tools--and intervention if necessary. Or there is the option of excusing, looking the other way, ignoring the warning signs, scapegoating, shifting blame or perpetuating the patterns. Sadly this can be rather easily accomplished by the most "well intentioned" of parents--who before they will recognize or admit any fault, look inwardly or in the mirror to do any self-evaluation, choose to blame and heap pain by sacrificing others for self in a lifelong strategy of self-preservation. That strategy may include opting eg to appear righteous rather than become righthearted. And is largely determined by one's beliefs, values and priorities.

Generational cycles can be broken--at any time, by any who choose instead to do an honest self-analysis, adopt healthier patterns, to make the sacrifices (as Shadow reminds us), better choices (as One demonstrates so well), and by sowing healthier seeds in the lives of their own children (as I am constantly endeavoring). As One, Shadow and others like them are continually demonstrating, it invariably falls upon every parent to scrutinize the errors and harmful practices of previous generations--and recognize in which ways they can improve or raise their children differently.

There's another proverb that warns, 'He who covers his transgressions won't prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.' What I see in this particular family is an awful lot of covering up--and without a doubt, a really poor working definition of love, in deadly motion. Once again, every parent who loves their child disciplines them. And where our own consistent discipline or appropriate boundaries fail, then we need to have the compassion and humility to seek outside counsel or intervention. I'm unaware to date of any attempts by the A's to impose any consequences or anything more than idle threats for KC's unruly, irresponsible, reckless behavior nor any reports of seeking outside help (which would expose laundry or skeletons w/in family), nor bring her under authority. Instead, even as this pattern culminates in tragedy, we see CA failing to follow thru and still insisting as usual on "handling" it as she always has... by scurrying to wash the dirty laundry, denying any problem ("There was an old pizza rotting in that bag, you know how hot it's been!") and perpetuating her daughter's victimhood. Hopefully some of us w children can learn from these grievous egs of parenting mistakes, and not have to make them all ourselves! JMHUO

G0d, I f'ing heart you!! You are like the "educated" me I always wanted to be! :blowkiss: LOL

That's why I share- so others can learn. Certainly not because I'm proud! LOL

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:35 PM
WOW, OLG, you really have your finger on the pulse! I so admire you for the hard journey you have had to get to where you are. I read your posts and truly see exactly what you state. I sure hope you are in a line of work where you can use your life skills and knowledge to help others. I know so much more because of you and several others on this forum. Just wanted to say thank you for explaining things so clearly to those of us who haven't walked in your shoes. :blowkiss:

:blowkiss: thank you.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:42 PM
These are all such good posts today. I so wish I could not relate, but I can.

There is not a 'smilie' to express my feelings right now.

:blowkiss: and *hugs* to you, Shivs! I hope you are well!

nancy botwin
01-17-2009, 08:46 PM
A lot has been said about how Cindy and George conducted themselves during the video visitations-- it's interesting to refer back to this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2756688&postcount=400) by Knot4uno-- George seems to follow the criminal profiler's interpersonal guidelines to a T, IMO.

Quoting from post re: appealing to Casey's narcissism:
GOOD Cop Interpersonal Guidelines:
-Show respect, admiration, and be easily impressed
-“Understand” their special abilities and attributes
-Present yourself as important and having “connections”


Casey's in special protective custody, Casey's the "CEO", George has the inside track to OCSO and can arrange a private and unrecorded meeting, etc.

George's "we're all a hand" analogy appeals to her Borderline features, etc.

IMO George takes a good volume of heat for being a bit of a weakling, but IMO he's probably less weak than he seems.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:47 PM
Agree with almost all. Exception George - She chose George because he was being truethful and she needed to rake him in and what better way than It is you I want.His face when she said that said it all.He was elated and it sealed the deal...He started lying too.....

You very well could be right! :blowkiss: It sure makes sense and fits her manipulative behaviors to a T!

reeseeva
01-17-2009, 08:54 PM
If this has been covered before, my apologies, but would love the analysis of this photo & quote & subsequent quote by Tupac, Pages 6 & 7

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1603690/casey-anthony-computer-report

Interesting dates when these were created, following Cindy's Myspace letter, dated July 3rd, which she hauntingly labels "My Caylee is Missing"

The photo of the girl, with the " Why do people kill people, who kill people, to show people that to kill people is Bad?" I think she uploaded this, as she found the hypocrisy, somewhat fulfilling.

And, the quote under the poster by Tupac, is like an answer to the question, which I feel was comforting to Casey in her brief moments of REALITY?

I see lots of self-analysis in her choices.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:56 PM
A lot has been said about how Cindy and George conducted themselves during the video visitations-- it's interesting to refer back to this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2756688&postcount=400) by Knot4uno-- George seems to follow the criminal profiler's interpersonal guidelines to a T, IMO.

Quoting from post re: appealing to Casey's narcissism:
GOOD Cop Interpersonal Guidelines:
-Show respect, admiration, and be easily impressed
-“Understand” their special abilities and attributes
-Present yourself as important and having “connections”


Casey's in special protective custody, Casey's the "CEO", George has the inside track to OCSO and can arrange a private and unrecorded meeting, etc.

George's "we're all a hand" analogy appeals to her Borderline features, etc.

IMO George takes a good volume of heat for being a bit of a weakling, but IMO he's probably less weak than he seems.

huh, interesting stuff! I don't remember Russell posting that LOL I wonder if I knew it at the time, it's been awhile. While I notice George seems to be playing this game, nothing he said happened- he never followed though, Casey even pointed it out to him... said she already agreed to meet, that it was already supposed to have happened but it didn't!

I think that cop "Happy" or whoever was working on her the proper way but suddenly stopped for whatever reason?! She even told mom and dad she would speak with him. I would like to know why he was taken off the case..

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 08:59 PM
We don't have any info. from school records that shows KC may have had some brief therapy. The talking heads on NG after seeing the latest jail video agreed with each other that the communication going on between kC and her parents seem to show that they may have all 3 been in counseling by the vocabulary they were using. Some of the words and behavior between the 3 seemed like they were familiar with having had these types of conversations in the past.

I missed any and all type of talk like that on TV by talking heads, do you have links please?

stilettos
01-17-2009, 09:02 PM
I have been lurking but not posting. Just reading up on your sleuthing and investigating. Finally, I have something to post. Forgive me if this has been opined. I have not seen it. Has anyone mentioned that Casey may have borderline personality disorder? The splitting, lying, always the victim, dropping friends for new ones, no feelings of guilt/always someone else's fault, chaos, stealing. On and on. Sounds like my BPD daughter. After alot of family therapy, my husband and I know a good bit about this and she appears to have a good many of the symptoms. ETA - hitting self in head after reading earlier post on borderline features. I know the hell that this disorder has wreaked on our home and I can tell you I have and would again call the police on my children should they harm ANYONE. One of my children reminded my schizo Mom of this one time when she pushed me. She told her "Granny, Mom would call the police on me or my foster sisters for that!" No idea what GA and CA are thinking.

passionflower
01-17-2009, 09:12 PM
I have been lurking but not posting. Just reading up on your sleuthing and investigating. Finally, I have something to post. Forgive me if this has been opined. I have not seen it. Has anyone mentioned that Casey may have borderline personality disorder? The splitting, lying, always the victim, dropping friends for new ones, no feelings of guilt/always someone else's fault, chaos, stealing. On and on. Sounds like my BPD daughter. After alot of family therapy, my husband and I know a good bit about this and she appears to have a good many of the symptoms. ETA - hitting self in head after reading earlier post on borderline features. I know the hell that this disorder has wreaked on our home and I can tell you I have and would again call the police on my children should they harm ANYONE. One of my children reminded my schizo Mom of this one time when she pushed me. She told her "Granny, Mom would call the police on me or my foster sisters for that!" No idea what GA and CA are thinking.

what is borderline personality disorder?? Oh and welcome to WS!!!

kageykaren
01-17-2009, 09:14 PM
I missed any and all type of talk like that on TV by talking heads, do you have links please?

Fri. night with NG and about 2 forensic psychologist and one or two regular psychologist speaking in a panel of six guest. This was the first time I saw so many of the TV pro's on a show together discussing the new jail house video. Even that one cute defense attorney NG has on spoke to the bad behavior displayed by KC. Hope that helps friend!

passionflower
01-17-2009, 09:15 PM
Wouldn't after 6 months in jail, the doctors would be able to tell if kc had any BPD and be treating her with meds by now? Seems she is something they can't treat with drugs.........beyond that point........IMO

stilettos
01-17-2009, 09:20 PM
what is borderline personality disorder?? Oh and welcome to WS!!!

Well, as the psychiatrist explained to us: Cycles of psychosis. The person is not ALWAYS out of touch with reality. Some borderlines can be high functioning and maintain employment. Always problems with intrapersonal relationships. Major splitting issues. Some suicidal ideation/or use of it fro attention or to get out of conflict. Our daughter was Baker Acted - taken by police as a danger to herself or others to the hospital 63 times by 18. Many doctors refuse to take borderlines as patients because of the manipulation, chaos and difficulty dealing with them. Our girl is 26 on Tues and still cannot remain in the same home more than 2-3 months before people get tired of the lying and playing the victim. She cannot keep a job though she is a genius. More than you wanted to know huh?

stilettos
01-17-2009, 09:22 PM
Wouldn't after 6 months in jail, the doctors would be able to tell if kc had any BPD and be treating her with meds by now? Seems she is something they can't treat with drugs.........beyond that point........IMO

They tried MANY different drugs for my daughter. So far none work execpt for straight sedation. (for when she is in the padded room) Nothing has touched the true personality disfunction. We have been taught some coping mechanisms for her behavior, but those are for us...they don't help her.

nancy botwin
01-17-2009, 09:24 PM
huh, interesting stuff! I don't remember Russell posting that LOL I wonder if I knew it at the time, it's been awhile. While I notice George seems to be playing this game, nothing he said happened- he never followed though, Casey even pointed it out to him... said she already agreed to meet, that it was already supposed to have happened but it didn't!

I think that cop "Happy" or whoever was working on her the proper way but suddenly stopped for whatever reason?! She even told mom and dad she would speak with him. I would like to know why he was taken off the case..

Casey does have a tendency to indicate she already knows and understands everything, even when she clearly doesn't. I don't really think Casey knew about the meeting George proposed in advance, because minutes earlier she was droning about how she just wished she could be in a room with her family and speak privately with them. Then when George says this is possible she sidesteps and says she knows all that. I think this was all new information to her and she just handled it in her standard way. But that's just my opinion. The August 14 interview also took place at 9 am and ended with Casey's assurance that she'd write that note to Sherriff Beary right away, but as I remember, she gave her note to a guard rather late that evening-- sometime after 11 pm-- she was putting it off until JB could stop it, IMO.

I don't know what happened to the Happy detective and would also be interested to know!


I missed any and all type of talk like that on TV by talking heads, do you have links please?

As I remember, it was on JVM last night and the panel was essentially lauding Cindy and George for their communication style and the way they handle Casey. They said it was clear Cindy and George had some therapy and were excellent parents showing appropriate emotions and reactions. This thread popped into my head instantly and I imagined collective groans echoing across WS. :crazy:

kageykaren
01-17-2009, 09:38 PM
They tried MANY different drugs for my daughter. So far none work execpt for straight sedation. (for when she is in the padded room) Nothing has touched the true personality disfunction. We have been taught some coping mechanisms for her behavior, but those are for us...they don't help her.

Thank you for sharing and welcome to the boards. Your insight from a parents perspective is pretty valuable here. With all the medications out there in the psychiatric world it seems so difficult to believe that medications for these disorders just don't help much. Sometimes when a patient is having an episode I think they want the relief from the tranqulizer as much as the family. In what ways did therapy help you in how you reacted to your daughters acting out behavior and did it help you when she was hospitalized. So many questions, don't leave and only answer if you wish.

chelle70
01-17-2009, 09:40 PM
Casey does have a tendency to indicate she already knows and understands everything, even when she clearly doesn't. I don't really think Casey knew about the meeting George proposed in advance, because minutes earlier she was droning about how she just wished she could be in a room with her family and speak privately with them. Then when George says this is possible she sidesteps and says she knows all that. I think this was all new information to her and she just handled it in her standard way. But that's just my opinion.



Oh, I totally have the same opinion. I was getting rather annoyed w/ how many times she said she "already knew" things. No one need tell her anything b/c she is omniscient. Please!:bang:

stilettos
01-17-2009, 09:51 PM
Thank you for sharing and welcome to the boards. Your insight from a parents perspective is pretty valuable here. With all the medications out there in the psychiatric world it seems so difficult to believe that medications for these disorders just don't help much. Sometimes when a patient is having an episode I think they want the relief from the tranqulizer as much as the family. In what ways did therapy help you in how you reacted to your daughters acting out behavior and did it help you when she was hospitalized. So many questions, don't leave and only answer if you wish.

Therapy helped my husband and I both. For our marriage, communication got better. Knowing what splitting was and stopping her from pitting us against each other. Dealing with the guilt. My bio Mom has mental illness. Knowing that it was okay to put her inpatient and that we were helping her. Learning not to get caught up in the content of her arguments and lies. Our social worker actually wrote up a letter for law enforcement indicating that kids with this disorder sometimes fabricate stories of abuse. We were trained in the hospital for theraputic holding to prevent her from harming herself or others. Actually, we brought homw our foster daughter from the hospital my daughter was in after being trained. LOL can you say glutton for punishment. We are stronger and happier as a couple. My daughter however still struggles mightily as we struggle with her issues. It is difficult. the major way the therapy helped me was with my anger. I was angry that we would never have the type of Mother - Daughter relationship that I felt we both deserved. I did not express my feelings AT ALL to her as she was violent. Having a safe place to express myself and knowing that I was not alone and that there were techniques to reduce the chaos and violence in my home was what helped me.

kageykaren
01-17-2009, 10:03 PM
Thank you for sharing. You were so proactive for your daughter and for your marriage. It's difficult to think as young mothers that our children one day would need us for things besides cuts and scrapes. You are a prime example of realizing knowledge is power and where you go from there is up to you. Doesn't seem like you were an ostrich parent. Now how do you stay so young! LOL!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 10:54 PM
I totally hear ya' and I agree. The problem is, however, that it is normally only rational and mature people who conduct the kind of self-analysis necessary to good parenting, BEFORE they decide to have a child. It is the people with serious problems who have no understanding of self-analysis, of normal logic or who can even see how screwed up they actually are, who pop em' out with no foresight as to whether it is a good decision or not. That's why our foster care systems are so clogged. Society is asking people to make better decisions for themselves and their children, or potential children, while knowing that many of those people have no ability or skills to do so. So, what's the answer?

And my point is *many* dysfunctional, irrational and immature people who have no clue wtf self-analysis even IS have children and find enough common sense to change their destructive behaviors. Dysfunctional people know deep down that they are dysfunctional. Children in dysfunctional homes know that other kids do not have to live like them. Dysfunctional people know the choices they should be making.. they are just too dysfunctional to follow through with making the proper choice.. to put forth the effort needed to change.

I'm sorry, but as someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home and lived in dysfunction until 6 years ago, I have to speak up and admit that you are really giving us way too little credit LOL. We are not unaware of our issues, we are not unware of the harm our behaviors cause our loved ones. We know how we should treat people... we just do nothing about it.

That people who have grown up in dysfunction are somehow helpless and hopeless to change because they lack some inherent "skill" or "ability" to recognize their issues.. is a dangerous message to send and could very well keep sick people sick. The days of "I can't help it, it's not my fault, I'm mentally ill" or "I was abused as a child, it's not my fault" are long gone!! We now know we have choices in life and our behaviors are a choice, no matter how misguided, dysfunctional or impulsive they may be. WE OWN them and should be held accountable! Can't handle it? Then make a better choice next time!

Every mistake I made, every arrest, every affair, my divorce, every theft, every drug binge, every drug sale, every manipulation and lie and bad check and credit card purchase and john and straight jacket and a$$ beating I got or gave, every night I slept in the back of my car- I knew I didn't have to live like that, I was dysfunctional not stupid! Dysfunctional was easier than change.

I honestly do not believe Cindy and George are so impared by their dysfunction that they lacked the ability to see what they were doing wrong in their parenting... This is not to say that I blame them for Caylee's murder because I don't. I feel very bad for both of these people, I worry that Cindy will take her life and I worry that poor George is going to take the fall for this... I am not even 100% sure in my mind that Casey is the one who did this (thought it's pretty darn close to 100%.. i still wonder..) I wish them nothing but health and happiness. I certainly think a willingness to change a DBT course or a co-dependent support group couldn't hurt Cindy and just may be her path to healing. Getting well, CAN happen!

I am going to let this go now, I respect that we have different opinons on this matter and I don't want you to feel I'm attacking you cuz I'm honestly not trying to. You have a right to feel what you do and to express it! You are a bright woman (man, oops, not sure?!) and bring up good points. I very much respect that you don't get to name calling like others have when things get heated- and they have with this discussion! You seem very likeable- we disagree on this issue, that does not mean we will disagree on every issue that ever comes up here at WS! :) ok? :truce:

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 10:59 PM
I have been lurking but not posting. Just reading up on your sleuthing and investigating. Finally, I have something to post. Forgive me if this has been opined. I have not seen it. Has anyone mentioned that Casey may have borderline personality disorder? The splitting, lying, always the victim, dropping friends for new ones, no feelings of guilt/always someone else's fault, chaos, stealing. On and on. Sounds like my BPD daughter. After alot of family therapy, my husband and I know a good bit about this and she appears to have a good many of the symptoms. ETA - hitting self in head after reading earlier post on borderline features. I know the hell that this disorder has wreaked on our home and I can tell you I have and would again call the police on my children should they harm ANYONE. One of my children reminded my schizo Mom of this one time when she pushed me. She told her "Granny, Mom would call the police on me or my foster sisters for that!" No idea what GA and CA are thinking.

Welcome to WS :) I see many Borderline features in Casey. I also see them in Cindy.

I 'm sorry about the trouble you have had with your daughter! :blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:08 PM
If this has been covered before, my apologies, but would love the analysis of this photo & quote & subsequent quote by Tupac, Pages 6 & 7

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1603690/casey-anthony-computer-report

Interesting dates when these were created, following Cindy's Myspace letter, dated July 3rd, which she hauntingly labels "My Caylee is Missing"

The photo of the girl, with the " Why do people kill people, who kill people, to show people that to kill people is Bad?" I think she uploaded this, as she found the hypocrisy, somewhat fulfilling.

And, the quote under the poster by Tupac, is like an answer to the question, which I feel was comforting to Casey in her brief moments of REALITY?

I see lots of self-analysis in her choices.

That's whatmany people use their myspace pages for.. Kinda like open- journals.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:09 PM
what is borderline personality disorder?? Oh and welcome to WS!!!

It is what I have been describing the home life of- what my mother has. What I believe Cindy suffers from.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Fri. night with NG and about 2 forensic psychologist and one or two regular psychologist speaking in a panel of six guest. This was the first time I saw so many of the TV pro's on a show together discussing the new jail house video. Even that one cute defense attorney NG has on spoke to the bad behavior displayed by KC. Hope that helps friend!

ahh, I missed it, darn!!

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:12 PM
Wouldn't after 6 months in jail, the doctors would be able to tell if kc had any BPD and be treating her with meds by now? Seems she is something they can't treat with drugs.........beyond that point........IMO

There are no meds approved to treat bpd. It is a personality disorder.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:15 PM
Well, as the psychiatrist explained to us: Cycles of psychosis. The person is not ALWAYS out of touch with reality. Some borderlines can be high functioning and maintain employment. Always problems with intrapersonal relationships. Major splitting issues. Some suicidal ideation/or use of it fro attention or to get out of conflict. Our daughter was Baker Acted - taken by police as a danger to herself or others to the hospital 63 times by 18. Many doctors refuse to take borderlines as patients because of the manipulation, chaos and difficulty dealing with them. Our girl is 26 on Tues and still cannot remain in the same home more than 2-3 months before people get tired of the lying and playing the victim. She cannot keep a job though she is a genius. More than you wanted to know huh?


http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h13/OneLostGrl/holiday/winniethepooh.gif

Omy gosh, I feel ya!! my mom is 63 and lives with me, she'd literally be homeless otherwise. She has burned every bridge she has come across.

Keep on !!

robotdog
01-17-2009, 11:20 PM
seems to me - there was a lot of " non confrontations " going on in that house for a good many years..

what im trying to say is when kids are growing up you got lay down a few rules - im not saying go totally overboard but for goodness sakes lets start with the basics no stealing - no lying and show a little damn respect to the parents. :crazy:


now, im not talking about when my kids roll their eyes at me when im talking about something and trying to explain things to them they can roll their eyes till the cows come home come but dont be sassing back to me :cool:

the eye rolling --hehehehee
probably happens everyday but you got to NIP things when they are little and stick to it and if the kids STEAM over it

let em steam - it only lasts a couple minutes or a couple hours

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH

they needed to be MORE STEAMING in that house

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:21 PM
Casey does have a tendency to indicate she already knows and understands everything, even when she clearly doesn't. I don't really think Casey knew about the meeting George proposed in advance, because minutes earlier she was droning about how she just wished she could be in a room with her family and speak privately with them. Then when George says this is possible she sidesteps and says she knows all that. I think this was all new information to her and she just handled it in her standard way. But that's just my opinion. The August 14 interview also took place at 9 am and ended with Casey's assurance that she'd write that note to Sherriff Beary right away, but as I remember, she gave her note to a guard rather late that evening-- sometime after 11 pm-- she was putting it off until JB could stop it, IMO.

I don't know what happened to the Happy detective and would also be interested to know!



As I remember, it was on JVM last night and the panel was essentially lauding Cindy and George for their communication style and the way they handle Casey. They said it was clear Cindy and George had some therapy and were excellent parents showing appropriate emotions and reactions. This thread popped into my head instantly and I imagined collective groans echoing across WS. :crazy:

I totally missed that show- wish I'd caughtit

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:23 PM
Thank you for sharing and welcome to the boards. Your insight from a parents perspective is pretty valuable here. With all the medications out there in the psychiatric world it seems so difficult to believe that medications for these disorders just don't help much. Sometimes when a patient is having an episode I think they want the relief from the tranqulizer as much as the family. In what ways did therapy help you in how you reacted to your daughters acting out behavior and did it help you when she was hospitalized. So many questions, don't leave and only answer if you wish.

Now Karen.. surely you know about meds and personality disorders.

mikeysmommom
01-17-2009, 11:25 PM
George is the sickest one of all ---- he is passive aggressive and very low key so its not obviously apparent he is the KING wingnut . I guarantee you Cindy and KC act the way they do because of him. He plays the fool and the victim -- he is neither. He is quite devious and the biggest liar of the bunch and has been fooling & flying under the radar for a long time.

ITA I think Casey is alot like her father.I would not be suprised if it was him who was looking up escorts and neck breaking.I honestly do not know how Cindy could live with the two of them.Didnt George have a sister with Mental problems? I think Casey inherited her problems from George.If CA is the controller of the family why the heck was she the only one supporting the household then comming home to take care of Caylee,plus shop ,cook and clean for 2 adults who both should have had jobs.JMO

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:27 PM
Therapy helped my husband and I both. For our marriage, communication got better. Knowing what splitting was and stopping her from pitting us against each other. Dealing with the guilt. My bio Mom has mental illness. Knowing that it was okay to put her inpatient and that we were helping her. Learning not to get caught up in the content of her arguments and lies. Our social worker actually wrote up a letter for law enforcement indicating that kids with this disorder sometimes fabricate stories of abuse. We were trained in the hospital for theraputic holding to prevent her from harming herself or others. Actually, we brought homw our foster daughter from the hospital my daughter was in after being trained. LOL can you say glutton for punishment. We are stronger and happier as a couple. My daughter however still struggles mightily as we struggle with her issues. It is difficult. the major way the therapy helped me was with my anger. I was angry that we would never have the type of Mother - Daughter relationship that I felt we both deserved. I did not express my feelings AT ALL to her as she was violent. Having a safe place to express myself and knowing that I was not alone and that there were techniques to reduce the chaos and violence in my home was what helped me.

Your strength and honest love for your entire family is evident in each of your posts! I respect that!! :blowkiss:

mikeysmommom
01-17-2009, 11:40 PM
Casey does have a tendency to indicate she already knows and understands everything, even when she clearly doesn't. I don't really think Casey knew about the meeting George proposed in advance, because minutes earlier she was droning about how she just wished she could be in a room with her family and speak privately with them. Then when George says this is possible she sidesteps and says she knows all that. I think this was all new information to her and she just handled it in her standard way. But that's just my opinion. The August 14 interview also took place at 9 am and ended with Casey's assurance that she'd write that note to Sherriff Beary right away, but as I remember, she gave her note to a guard rather late that evening-- sometime after 11 pm-- she was putting it off until JB could stop it, IMO.

I don't know what happened to the Happy detective and would also be interested to know!



As I remember, it was on JVM last night and the panel was essentially lauding Cindy and George for their communication style and the way they handle Casey. They said it was clear Cindy and George had some therapy and were excellent parents showing appropriate emotions and reactions. This thread popped into my head instantly and I imagined collective groans echoing across WS. :crazy:

Yes I saw it on JVM and the experts all said it and I agree.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2009, 11:51 PM
Yes I saw it on JVM and the experts all said it and I agree.

Would you mind enlightening me as to who JVM is? I am clueless!

Janis396
01-18-2009, 12:00 AM
Would you mind enlightening me as to who JVM is? I am clueless!

Jane Velez Mitchell -her show "Issues" is on right before Nancy Grace.

kiki the parrot
01-18-2009, 12:23 AM
Oh, I totally have the same opinion. I was getting rather annoyed w/ how many times she said she "already knew" things. No one need tell her anything b/c she is omniscient. Please!:bang:

Omnitient, omnipotent, and omnipresent... yep... NPD, for sure lol. JMO


seems to me - there was a lot of " non confrontations " going on in that house for a good many years..

what im trying to say is when kids are growing up you got lay down a few rules - im not saying go totally overboard but for goodness sakes lets start with the basics no stealing - no lying and show a little damn respect to the parents. :crazy:

now, im not talking about when my kids roll their eyes at me when im talking about something and trying to explain things to them they can roll their eyes till the cows come home come but dont be sassing back to me :cool:

the eye rolling --hehehehee
probably happens everyday but you got to NIP things when they are little and stick to it and if the kids STEAM over it

let em steam - it only lasts a couple minutes or a couple hours

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH

they needed to be MORE STEAMING in that house

(bold mine) Say that! Thanks for breaking it down, nice and simple. You have me belly laughing so hard dog I swear... (it relieves the nervous tension from analyzing this bunch!)


ITA I think Casey is alot like her father.I would not be suprised if it was him who was looking up escorts and neck breaking.I honestly do not know how Cindy could live with the two of them.Didnt George have a sister with Mental problems? I think Casey inherited her problems from George.If CA is the controller of the family why the heck was she the only one supporting the household then comming home to take care of Caylee,plus shop ,cook and clean for 2 adults who both should have had jobs.JMO

(bold mine) Geesh the whole disordered bunch I mean now I really am ROFL listen if I were CA's husband I'd probably be looking up the same things, and a whole lot worse (barely able to type LM*O so hard omg, Lord forgive me... lol)
:floorlaugh:
(ETA: inappropriate laughter, oh dear...)

radio
01-18-2009, 06:06 AM
Your strength and honest love for your entire family is evident in each of your posts! I respect that!! :blowkiss:

:wave: :wave:

Hey OLG!!!

Same goes for you in all of your posts!!!

cya http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee166/benzo_013/headbanger.gif

Brini
01-18-2009, 08:22 AM
Omnitient, omnipotent, and omnipresent... yep... NPD, for sure lol. JMO



(bold mine) Say that! Thanks for breaking it down, nice and simple. You have me belly laughing so hard dog I swear... (it relieves the nervous tension from analyzing this bunch!)



(bold mine) Geesh the whole disordered bunch I mean now I really am ROFL listen if I were CA's husband I'd probably be looking up the same things, and a whole lot worse (barely able to type LM*O so hard omg, Lord forgive me... lol)
:floorlaugh:
(ETA: inappropriate laughter, oh dear...)

I think. though, in many ways CA LIKES being the sole support of the whole disordered assemblage. That gives her thew roles of martyr and savior, and allows her tons of control chips. This, in turn, gives KC a rationalization for the stealing that she, as a sociopath, would likely be doing ANYWAY.

In a strange and twister way, they all love (and hate) eachother. All are enmeshed and needy. "MOO," said the cow.

My sis and I got OUT of a home like that, BTW.

radio
01-18-2009, 08:30 AM
There may be some psychological significance to Bella Vita. Lindsey Lohan sings La Bella Vita. I assume Casey Anthony would be a fan. I won't post the lyrics - here is the link:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lindsaylohan/beautifullifelabellavita.html

Searchfortruth
01-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Therapy helped my husband and I both. For our marriage, communication got better. Knowing what splitting was and stopping her from pitting us against each other. Dealing with the guilt. My bio Mom has mental illness. Knowing that it was okay to put her inpatient and that we were helping her. Learning not to get caught up in the content of her arguments and lies. Our social worker actually wrote up a letter for law enforcement indicating that kids with this disorder sometimes fabricate stories of abuse. We were trained in the hospital for theraputic holding to prevent her from harming herself or others. Actually, we brought homw our foster daughter from the hospital my daughter was in after being trained. LOL can you say glutton for punishment. We are stronger and happier as a couple. My daughter however still struggles mightily as we struggle with her issues. It is difficult. the major way the therapy helped me was with my anger. I was angry that we would never have the type of Mother - Daughter relationship that I felt we both deserved. I did not express my feelings AT ALL to her as she was violent. Having a safe place to express myself and knowing that I was not alone and that there were techniques to reduce the chaos and violence in my home was what helped me.The problem with medication and BPD, I thought, was that the person w/ BPD doesn't see themselves as sick and therefore no need for medication, therapy ?

stilettos
01-18-2009, 03:06 PM
The problem with medication and BPD, I thought, was that the person w/ BPD doesn't see themselves as sick and therefore no need for medication, therapy ?

That is the problem once they reach their majority. When she was a child she was placed on about 20 or so different cocktails of medications. The only one that had ANY effect was Zyprexa. As soon as she reached 18 and was allowed to refuse medication, she did so. She feels (according to her) that her mind is stronger than others who had (according to her) this disorder in childhood. In the meantime, she is wreaking havoc on her life and the lives of others w/out it. IDK about Casey's NPD. Our daughter has the same tendancy to think she is omnipotent and "above" others.

stilettos
01-18-2009, 03:10 PM
Welcome to WS :) I see many Borderline features in Casey. I also see them in Cindy.

I 'm sorry about the trouble you have had with your daughter! :blowkiss:

Thanks Lost. I am doing well except for the times of crisis. your posts have touched me...:blowkiss:

Kat
01-18-2009, 03:27 PM
I'm not sure where to post this. So I will post this here. I was looking at the pictures that Momtective posted in another thread (post #852)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78135&page=24

Can someone explain to me (in very simple terms) why it looks as though KC is experiencing glee watching CA suffer? What compels KC to do this to someone? I have seen others on other threads say she is evil. I understand that, but I am looking for more of an explanation. TIA for anyone that has the patience to explain some of this to me.

stilettos
01-18-2009, 04:00 PM
Heck, Debs, I'll give you $5.00 for this! And, you win today's Woolworth Award for Dimestore Psychology!

I disagree with you on only one point. I don't think she is capable of love, not even for her child. Sociopaths are not "developed" enough. They are missing parts of their personalities. For that reason, I don't think she tried to spare Klee from CA's enmeshment. I think she just saw Klee as a power icon, in the war between the Queen Bees.

But, I'll bet you are right, in that she observed and mimicked other moms! If you put KC on a couch, she'd turn into an accent pillow, in a harmonizing color.

I think, like you, that once she gets used to the idea of being in jail for decades, she'll be the perfect prisoner. She might even end up a trusty. She won't agitate for extras, but she will manage to get them.

And, the structure might even be good for her. Might make her feel secure and protected. Three hots and a cot, time scheduled for her, every day.

I think they might have only two danger areas: 1) seducing males in the system, and 2) cageing people who write to her out of money.

Like most notorious criminals, she is likely to have "fans." Like many other notorious criminals, I think she's likely to marry a fan, to have someone outside to send her things.

Pesonality Disordered people do much better in structured enviornments. You are correct about the seduction of males in her enviornment. I think you'd have to plant her in the ground to stop that behavior.

kiki the parrot
01-18-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm not sure where to post this. So I will post this here. I was looking at the pictures that Momtective posted in another thread (post #852)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78135&page=24

Can someone explain to me (in very simple terms) why it looks as though KC is experiencing glee watching CA suffer? What compels KC to do this to someone? I have seen others on other threads say she is evil. I understand that, but I am looking for more of an explanation. TIA for anyone that has the patience to explain some of this to me.

In the simplest terms, and IMO only of course, it doesn't strike me as so much evil as immature--and fleeting, as we just as quickly see this front evaporate. (As incredible as this is under these circumstances, it's obvious there must have been a long history after many even serious violations or infractions by KC, when pouring on the charm alone worked--and she was gonna "work it," because a narcissist has only a limited number of tricks up their sleeve and weapons in their arsenal.) Overall, in keeping w KC's manipulation of her family, this was in order to: put up a facade, try to appear unburdened, feign having no further knowledge, thus avoid further questions, deflect responsibility (beyond that is being too "innocent and naive" as to leave your child in the care of a trusted "kidnapper..." :boohoo:), divert attention from any immediate reality of impact on family, and/or downplay the gravity of the situation in general. So far, so good! JMO

Searchfortruth
01-18-2009, 04:47 PM
That is the problem once they reach their majority. When she was a child she was placed on about 20 or so different cocktails of medications. The only one that had ANY effect was Zyprexa. As soon as she reached 18 and was allowed to refuse medication, she did so. She feels (according to her) that her mind is stronger than others who had (according to her) this disorder in childhood. In the meantime, she is wreaking havoc on her life and the lives of others w/out it. IDK about Casey's NPD. Our daughter has the same tendancy to think she is omnipotent and "above" others. I believe the lack of insight is a common thread that runs through most of the personality disorders, making treatment ineffective. My heart goes out to you and your family, I can't imagine the stress that is involved. I wonder about Casey and her family, and imagine that the "battles" have been fought for many years now. Cindy's description of her perfect family to the FBI, really didn't help them in answering the questions they must have had as to why. If anything, hopefully this case will broaden the discussion of personality disorders and the family's that have to cope with those that are affected.

stilettos
01-18-2009, 05:10 PM
I think that is another thing that confuses me about Cindy. How could she not suck it up and face her daughter's issues and get the girl some help. These behaviors did not just start in adulthood. So, why as a mother do you look the other way? How it looks? Who cares when it comes to your children. Their needs come first. Even when it's painful. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-18-2009, 05:13 PM
That is the problem once they reach their majority. When she was a child she was placed on about 20 or so different cocktails of medications. The only one that had ANY effect was Zyprexa. As soon as she reached 18 and was allowed to refuse medication, she did so. She feels (according to her) that her mind is stronger than others who had (according to her) this disorder in childhood. In the meantime, she is wreaking havoc on her life and the lives of others w/out it. IDK about Casey's NPD. Our daughter has the same tendancy to think she is omnipotent and "above" others.

I was interested to learn that there are elements of narcissism, ie it is the common denominator, in all of the personality disorders. I am personally not a professional and so couldn't presume to say whether this is the extent of her pathology, give any dx much less a comprehensive one including what other coexisting disorders may be present (oy...), have just learned to recognize signs of pathological narcissism. Btw, I'm really sorry too for the years of heartbreaking trials with your daughter, it sounds like you have waged a really long battle on her behalf and have had to be very strong. JMHUO

Searchfortruth
01-18-2009, 05:20 PM
I think that is another thing that confuses me about Cindy. How could she not suck it up and face her daughter's issues and get the girl some help. These behaviors did not just start in adulthood. So, why as a mother do you look the other way? How it looks? Who cares when it comes to your children. Their needs come first. Even when it's painful. JMOI shake my head in confusion when it comes to Cindy. I don't know how a mother can turn her head for so long and then make up a new reality to live by, especially when a child is involved. Someone said that George had said at one point, when Casey was home on bail, that he was tired of living a lie. How a family can function, wake up day after day ignoring the truth, living in a false world, I do not know. How long has Cindy lived like this, in denial and enabling her daughter ? Would there have been a different outcome for Casey without Cindy ? I can't know for sure, but I tend to think the answer is yes.

stilettos
01-18-2009, 05:21 PM
I was interested to learn that there are elements of narcissism, ie it is the common denominator, in all of the personality disorders. I am personally not a professional and so couldn't presume to say whether this is the extent of her pathology, give any dx much less a comprehensive one including what other coexisting disorders may be present (oy...), have just learned to recognize signs of pathological narcissism. Btw, I'm really sorry too for the years of heartbreaking trials with your daughter, it sounds like you have waged a really long battle on her behalf and have had to be very strong. JMHUO

I was not strong at first. Her violence reminded me of my childhood. I would hide in the tub with the door locked while she took every picture off the walls and broke things. One day I woke up knowing that I was just making it worse and not helping the daughter I loved. So Mom became the strong one. While most of the time she hates my guts because I call her on EVERYTHING, she will tell you her name for me is Mominator because I take care of my kids at all costs. She will also tell a new foster child to be careful, my mom calls the popo at the drop of a hat!! You gotta laugh when you can!!

kiki the parrot
01-18-2009, 05:54 PM
I shake my head in confusion when it comes to Cindy. I don't know how a mother can turn her head for so long and then make up a new reality to live by, especially when a child is involved. Someone said that George had said at one point, when Casey was home on bail, that he was tired of living a lie. How a family can function, wake up day after day ignoring the truth, living in a false world, I do not know. How long has Cindy lived like this, in denial and enabling her daughter ? Would there have been a different outcome for Casey without Cindy ? I can't know for sure, but I tend to think the answer is yes.

(bold mine) How can they function like this... you got me! They are all living a lie--and CA seems to be at the heart of them, protecting and perpetuating those lies, and there were so very many of them. Deception also causes continual conflict. I just could never stand it. KC didn't have a birth defect or any dna which programmed her to deceive, exploit and manipulate: KC learned this. A different outcome? For KC--AND for Caylee. There is not a doubt in my mind. JMO

passionflower
01-18-2009, 06:22 PM
There may be some psychological significance to Bella Vita. Lindsey Lohan sings La Bella Vita. I assume Casey Anthony would be a fan. I won't post the lyrics - here is the link:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lindsaylohan/beautifullifelabellavita.html

after reading the words to the song, it is depressing........IMO

kiki the parrot
01-18-2009, 06:27 PM
I was not strong at first. Her violence reminded me of my childhood. I would hide in the tub with the door locked while she took every picture off the walls and broke things. One day I woke up knowing that I was just making it worse and not helping the daughter I loved. So Mom became the strong one. While most of the time she hates my guts because I call her on EVERYTHING, she will tell you her name for me is Mominator because I take care of my kids at all costs. She will also tell a new foster child to be careful, my mom calls the popo at the drop of a hat!! You gotta laugh when you can!!

The po-pos... lol. Omg it is an awful position to be in. I am a single mom of four and when my youngest son was 14 or 15 I had to do this once--he was as big as me and so one day lost his mind and thought that he was in charge... LOL!! It made me so mad because, while I'm a pretty strict, no-nonsense parent and he knows it, on this occasion he was defying and daring me and I just knew if he'd had a dad around all those years to put some fear in him or woop his rear when he needed it, he would never have dared speak to me like he did that day. Wouldn't you know, they sent a lady po-po... (sigh...) Anyway he's 16 now and since I called his bluff, he's back to being pretty behaved... and at least now he knows Moms won't play if it comes down to it! Gotta show 'em whose boss ;) Hang in there "Mominator," continue finding w/e humor you can in everything (I know I have to!) and hope you don't have to call for anymore "back-up" lol!

eddeva
01-18-2009, 06:29 PM
There may be some psychological significance to Bella Vita. Lindsey Lohan sings La Bella Vita. I assume Casey Anthony would be a fan. I won't post the lyrics - here is the link:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lindsaylohan/beautifullifelabellavita.html

i can't see casey being a fan of lohan, i mean, well that would be embarrassing to someone like casey. after all she saw herself as cool.
all the same lohan has the same tattoo but on her lower back.

Brini
01-18-2009, 08:42 PM
Pesonality Disordered people do much better in structured enviornments. You are correct about the seduction of males in her enviornment. I think you'd have to plant her in the ground to stop that behavior.

Planting her sounds like a GREAT idea! ;-)

radio
01-18-2009, 08:45 PM
i can't see casey being a fan of lohan, i mean, well that would be embarrassing to someone like casey. after all she saw herself as cool.
all the same lohan has the same tattoo but on her lower back.

Lindsey Lohan and Casey Anthony have the same tatoo of Bella Vita?? Casey might like the music.....

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee166/benzo_013/BellaVita.jpg

BuzzieCat
01-18-2009, 10:02 PM
ITA I think Casey is alot like her father.I would not be suprised if it was him who was looking up escorts and neck breaking.I honestly do not know how Cindy could live with the two of them.Didnt George have a sister with Mental problems? I think Casey inherited her problems from George.If CA is the controller of the family why the heck was she the only one supporting the household then coming home to take care of Caylee,plus shop ,cook and clean for 2 adults who both should have had jobs.JMO
CA may very well like being in charge and being the martyr, but I do think she has an awful lot to do and not much help from GA. If he's not able to keep a steady job he could at least do more around the house and for the family. He just squicks me out! IMO. She supports his lazy behind, it would appear, and he just stands around in the driveway looking smug. Blech. Casey has learned that mom will pay for stuff IMO.

When Casey said in the video that GA had already failed to arrange a meeting - if that wasn't true, why didn't he say so or at least pretend not to remember it? I can't remember exactly what he said but he seemed to be agreeing that it had fallen through before. He didn't miss a beat or seem surprised that she was saying it already fell through.

In that video I just see a horrible, conscienceless person. I'm no psychiatrist/psychologist but I just really see hardly any feelings there except for herself. It's scary and I can totally see her doing something horrible on purpose if pressed to it.

I'm really curious about those of you who say you're not absolutely sure she did it. Is there some other candidate you have in mind in particular or not? You don't have to say who you think if it's someone specific, I just wonder. Especially after that video, I just can't see it as anyone but her. As messed up as the rest of the family is, I don't think they would do that.

Searchfortruth
01-18-2009, 10:21 PM
(bold mine) How can they function like this... you got me! They are all living a lie--and CA seems to be at the heart of them, protecting and perpetuating those lies, and there were so very many of them. Deception also causes continual conflict. I just could never stand it. KC didn't have a birth defect or any dna which programmed her to deceive, exploit and manipulate: KC learned this. A different outcome? For KC--AND for Caylee. There is not a doubt in my mind. JMO I so agree. I have read so many articles that say sociopaths, narcissists are not made, they are born that way. I have problems thinking that Casey got to this station in life without the help of Cindy. There are too many bizarre behaviors in the mix. :confused:

Brini
01-19-2009, 09:03 AM
I so agree. I have read so many articles that say sociopaths, narcissists are not made, they are born that way. I have problems thinking that Casey got to this station in life without the help of Cindy. There are too many bizarre behaviors in the mix. :confused:

I think it's both. Latest theory is that the mirror neuronal network that enables us to empathized turns inward, instead of outward, in sociopaths. Aso, something's wrong with the pre-frontal cortex.

But, I think bad parenting can nurture and develop innate sociopathy.

txanmom
01-19-2009, 10:42 AM
do y'all think it would be appropriate/interesting to add a poll to this thread re: kc born this way or kc made this way?

don't know how to do it or whether it would be a good idea in all of your opinion, but i think it would be very interesting to see the numbers.

it could have options such as

kc born a sociopath parenting doesn't matter
kc born with a personality disorder that parenting made worse into sociopath
kc born normal and parenting made into sociopath
kc born normal but some trauma happened and along with parenting caused it
etc??

if someone thinks its a good idea could they start it? i don't know how.:)

radio
01-19-2009, 11:30 AM
after reading the words to the song, it is depressing........IMO

I've never heard it I guess, but after reading the words -- I couldn't even imagine a tune to go with it.:waitasec:

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 12:32 PM
Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
:parrot:

bookworm474
01-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

radio
01-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
:parrot:

kiki ---- I am so glad to see someone finally say this!!!! YES!!http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee166/benzo_013/headbanger.gif

Whisperer
01-19-2009, 01:06 PM
Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
:parrot:

I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

debs
01-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

For lack of a better analogy, Casey is a sponge who soaked up the personalities, likes and dislikes, mannerisms, lifestyle, dress code, and goals in life of those she had around her. She started partying with college kids and became one in her storyline. Her own personality was never developed beyond what she was WITH someone else, just like she was a "good girl" with Jesse, enough so that his whole family declares they don't recognize this person.

radio
01-19-2009, 01:14 PM
I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

LOL!! Oh, so many kabuki dances over this
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee166/benzo_013/KABUKI_8.jpg

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 01:21 PM
Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

You mean until she began (at age 20!) to try to break away, ie finally find an independent identity or separate 'voice' of her own? That is quite typical of the narcissistic parenting cycle so we can't assume everything was just "fine" up until this point. The ensuing trouble which followed had IMO (and per most experts) been in the works for years and doesn't just happen "overnight." JG was useful in reconstructing that transition period (which seems to also coincide w end of their relationship). I have no idea if NPD is the extent of KC's problems or what other coexisting disorders there may be. But I do know defiant acting out is a classic textbook reaction w narcissists after having been formerly compliant as children under a controlling parent's thumb--and that this is often incorrectly perceived as "coming out of nowhere." There is much research describing this but here's an excerpt from concise article summarizing this point. JMHUO

"Often, the children of narcissistic parents learn that their only option in searching for "voice" is to engage in self-destructive behavior... Ironically, in hurting themselves, they sometimes shatter their narcissistic parents' self-deception. "We didn't know they were in such pain. Why didn't they tell us? Where did we go wrong?" By then, of course, the questions are too late."

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/relationships/grossman/voicewars.html

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 01:57 PM
I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

Whisperer I did not say murder was a prerequisite for sociopathy--not even close. I simply said *I* wasn't convinced KC is a sociopath and would need more info--including (at minimum) eg the very telling circumstances surrounding her child's death which *I* believe could be extremely revealing--before even hazarding as much as a guess! I myself have long said I'd observed what *I* suspect are traits of narcissism--which I've also repeatedly said would require an expert to diagnose whether pathological and/or if there are coexisting disorders. In addition *I* have pointed out there are elements of narcissism in all of the major personality disorders. And that *I* am not pretending to dx nor am *I* qualified as an expert. Am merely making observations of what *I* believe is consistent w NPD. JMHUO

kageykaren
01-19-2009, 02:21 PM
From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

Searchfortruth
01-19-2009, 02:52 PM
Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
:parrot:Very interesting post ! Thank you !:)

Whisperer
01-19-2009, 03:06 PM
From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

I don't expect very much from the MMPI. I am going to take a stab at this as say her test, at least her first if not both will come up as invalid. She would not be able to answer question with any validity whatsoever. Invalids show up when a client is malingering, dishonest or totally psychotic.

So this leaves the psychologist with giving an opinion based on different tests, if she obliges or on observations, videos and by interviewing her. Corrections medical staff and family interviews may be solicited

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 03:09 PM
From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

Yes how *we* too would love to be a fly on the pages of that MMPI! Besides which, she could never use any kind of 'psychological defense' for a crime she has yet to even admit to omg! Like come up off of ZG already!! If there is any chance sticking w this is on JB's advice, we need to order an MMPI on him too!! JMO

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 03:17 PM
I don't expect very much from the MMPI. I am going to take a stab at this as say her test, at least her first if not both will come up as invalid. She would not be able to answer question with any validity whatsoever. Invalids show up when a client is malingering, dishonest or totally psychotic.

So this leaves the psychologist with giving an opinion based on observations of videos and by interviewing and by corrections staff and possibly by family but unlikely.

Which is why I imagine she would not likely benefit from, but presumably only manipulate any therapy or counseling (which she would even agree to participate in). And leaves me to wonder too, hypothetically, how well she would perform on a poly. JMHUO

indicat
01-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Which is why I imagine she would not likely benefit from, but presumably only manipulate any therapy or counseling which she would be even agree to participate in. And leaves me to wonder too, hypothetically, how well she would perform on a poly. JMHUO

I just got done reading "The Stranger Beside Me" again, it had been years, and the similarities in personality was pretty comparable as far as psyc testing. There is also a similar pic of KC and Ted, along with the one posted of Scott....the three of them share some similar personality traits IMO.

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 03:28 PM
Hi Indicat! The possible scenarios (ranging from premeditated murder to negligence w cover-up which to date I'm personally unable to exclude) are so totally disparate w vastly differing implications that I guess it is just impossible for me to yet form this comparison... she is a piece of work, that's for sure (my official, very expert dx!) JMHUO
:parrot:

kageykaren
01-19-2009, 03:33 PM
Very good Kiki! These test were given upon her first incarceration. The invalid showings actually showed the psychologist newly assigned to KC alot! We on this forumn are now dicussing her malingering dishonst self that we have witnessed since her interviw with her assigned psychologist. I'm feeling those test results are the reason JB & his team are keeping such close tabs on hr while in jail. My opinion is the defense doesn't want anyone aware of her thought process.

indicat
01-19-2009, 03:41 PM
Hi Indicat! The possible scenarios (ranging from premeditated murder to negligence w cover-up which to date I'm personally unable to exclude) are so totally disparate w vastly differing implications that I guess it is just impossible for me to yet form this comparison... she is a piece of work, that's for sure (my official, very expert dx!) JMHUO
:parrot:

I guess what I'm thinking of is their ability to fit into their surroundings, their ability to appear 'normal' if given an evaluation. I certainly don't see "serial killer" in KC but I do see the personality traits. I just can't wrap my head around accident and then cover up. I think I understand her actions if it was murder much better then if it was an unplanned accident and then the way she behaved.

Whisperer
01-19-2009, 03:44 PM
I just got done reading "The Stranger Beside Me" again, it had been years, and the similarities in personality was pretty comparable as far as psyc testing. There is also a similar pic of KC and Ted, along with the one posted of Scott....the three of them share some similar personality traits IMO.

It is very interesting when you follow the criminals. Same pathologies share the same traits. Ed Kemper and Jeffrey Dahmer were identical. Listening to them speak, you can't tell which one it is, if you didn't see their face. Differences in psychopaths' criminal behavior would likely be related to their intelligence.

Whisperer
01-19-2009, 03:48 PM
Very good Kiki! These test were given upon her first incarceration. The invalid showings actually showed the psychologist newly assigned to KC alot! We on this forumn are now dicussing her malingering dishonst self that we have witnessed since her interviw with her assigned psychologist. I'm feeling those test results are the reason JB & his team are keeping such close tabs on hr while in jail. My opinion is the defense doesn't want anyone aware of her thought process.

Are you saying they disclosed the results? I am surprised!

aprilshowers
01-19-2009, 04:20 PM
I have borderline personality disorder, and I wanted to comment on what "I" saw and felt about this paragraph below. What I want to point out will be in bold, and my words will be in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnTCB http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3188481#post3188481)
KC: I don’t know what I CANthink anymore

I know this is part of BPD, because without medication, I too, truly feel that I don't know what I CAN think. In other words, those with BPD, go from feeling one thing to another very quickly, we can feel angry, then guilt about that anger, then depression from the guilt, etc. etc. and we're never really sure WHAT we feel, or what we SHOULD feel, because we have NO confidence in ourselves at all, and we have no trust in anyone else.

Many times, this is caused by not having the proper love and care, when we were children. And even though we see that she may have been loved, she was also 'spoiled' and 'coddled', and wasn't given the proper discipline ... that in itself is neglectful, since discipline (done in the right way) portrays love to children, since then they know they are loved, since their parents CARE what they do and don't do, where they are, etc. etc.

So in that sense, BPD starts to develop, because the child has no real sense of being loved and truly cared for, since she can do whatever she wants. Oh, she may enjoy that as she goes along, but truly deeply inside the soul of a child, they WANT and NEED control and discipline, it tells them they are loved.
MOM, just keep saying it BECAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH It’s all we want. OUR FAMILY IS BROKEN.

Here, she is telling her MOM to keep saying it, because this is her way of placing the burden and responsibility on her Mom, so she can come across as the victim ... the child who needs to feel completely loved, since she never truly did as a child, because of the lack of discipline and them allowing her to do whatever she wants.

She then points out that it's the TRUTH ... that our family is broken. Here I see two things she may be meaning. One is that she feels the family IS broken, because of the lack of discipline and rules, etc. and who knows what else she's referring to. Two is that SHE feels broken. Trust me, BPD's DO feel broken, absolutely feeling they have NO idea where they belong in this world, and without the guidance of rules, when they're young, that gives them even MORE of a sense of being lost.

We want to have that fixed.

"I" want to have that fixed, us fixed .. I wish I felt totally loved and cared about, but you always let me do whatever I wanted to, never held me accountable for anything, and all though it was fun at the time, it hurt to know you didn't care enough to stop me. So now ... who am I and what am I .... and what purpose do I fill here on earth?

We know what that means to have our family broken apart by something now. By tragedy. We don’t want this to any longer be a tragedy.

Notice that she uses WE allot? She's actually both talking about herself, and also trying to once again, bring them together as a family, hoping against hope, that she's 'rescued' ... to show she is loved. I truly think she WANTS them to be more forceful ... and firm .. therefore holding her responsible FINALLY for something.

I don’t want to be one of those thousands of parents that, that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their, their child again. With the potential of knowing that their child’s alive and that they’re with someone else.

The paragraph above? I think that's only for sympathy, empathy, to be felt sorry for ... to get their love and attention .. and to 'play' them into giving her attention. (but it's still about 'love', not surface love, but REAL love, meaning rules, regulations, restrictions, because they CARE about her well being and that she becomes a responsible adult).

The thought of that every day makes me sick.

This can be about any number of things, But trust me, if she's truly BPD, she isn't talking about what she 'appears' to be talking about. BPD's find it VERY hard, if not impossible, to say how they're REALLY feeling, because the moment they do, they let down their sheild of the fear of not being loved and of being abandoned.

So I think here, she may be expressing that SHE makes herself sick, that she feels what many BPD's feel, loathing of themselves, sometimes hating themselves, feeling invisible, no direction in life.

She also may be speaking of the fact that it makes her sick, that it came to this ... that she took her child's life, because she is so FOOKED up.

I know this all may seem crazy to you guys .... and I am NOT saying most BPD's kill their children or anyone for that matter, usually if anyone, they attempt to kill THEMSELVES, but in this case, if a BPD feels SO alone and lost, they may turn to this ... all though I believe that may have been the 'sociopath' side of her.

Also one more thing: Many BPD's go a bit on the wild side, drinking, sex, stealing, etc... some of it is to cover up how they REALLY feel totally empty, void of purpose, and lost. The other part of it is, to show the world that they're ok ... adjusted like everybody else is. They can NOT show the truth, their TRUE feelings of being lost, and of being scared to death of not being loved.

Sorry this was so long, and I'm not saying I'm right in every single thing here, but just thought I'd give you the perspective from the BPD's side.

Also, I'm NOT defending her doing what she did in ANY sense! Just so you know.... but letting you in on the BPD's psyche a bit. :)

mitzi
01-19-2009, 07:37 PM
AprilShowers, thank you for that insider's view. You have given me alot to think about. Hugs to you, for the honesty you have given us, in what you feel in your life. :blowkiss:

Whisperer
01-19-2009, 07:44 PM
April, you have very good insight. I think you are accurate in your analysis. You appear to be able to recognize thinking and feeling and the difference in the two. Many cannot do that. I commend you because you obviously are doing very well.
:takeabow:

Pink Panther
01-19-2009, 07:45 PM
Thanks for your insight AprilShowers. Do you think that she's borderline? (Given your post, it seems so.) Do you think it may be possible that she's not, that she could be a sociopath? I'm very interested in your perspective!

: )

stilettos
01-19-2009, 08:17 PM
I have borderline personality disorder, and I wanted to comment on what "I" saw and felt about this paragraph below. What I want to point out will be in bold, and my words will be in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnTCB http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3188481#post3188481)
KC: I don’t know what I CANthink anymore

I know this is part of BPD, because without medication, I too, truly feel that I don't know what I CAN think. In other words, those with BPD, go from feeling one thing to another very quickly, we can feel angry, then guilt about that anger, then depression from the guilt, etc. etc. and we're never really sure WHAT we feel, or what we SHOULD feel, because we have NO confidence in ourselves at all, and we have no trust in anyone else.

Many times, this is caused by not having the proper love and care, when we were children. And even though we see that she may have been loved, she was also 'spoiled' and 'coddled', and wasn't given the proper discipline ... that in itself is neglectful, since discipline (done in the right way) portrays love to children, since then they know they are loved, since their parents CARE what they do and don't do, where they are, etc. etc.

So in that sense, BPD starts to develop, because the child has no real sense of being loved and truly cared for, since she can do whatever she wants. Oh, she may enjoy that as she goes along, but truly deeply inside the soul of a child, they WANT and NEED control and discipline, it tells them they are loved.
MOM, just keep saying it BECAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH It’s all we want. OUR FAMILY IS BROKEN.

Here, she is telling her MOM to keep saying it, because this is her way of placing the burden and responsibility on her Mom, so she can come across as the victim ... the child who needs to feel completely loved, since she never truly did as a child, because of the lack of discipline and them allowing her to do whatever she wants.

She then points out that it's the TRUTH ... that our family is broken. Here I see two things she may be meaning. One is that she feels the family IS broken, because of the lack of discipline and rules, etc. and who knows what else she's referring to. Two is that SHE feels broken. Trust me, BPD's DO feel broken, absolutely feeling they have NO idea where they belong in this world, and without the guidance of rules, when they're young, that gives them even MORE of a sense of being lost.

We want to have that fixed.

"I" want to have that fixed, us fixed .. I wish I felt totally loved and cared about, but you always let me do whatever I wanted to, never held me accountable for anything, and all though it was fun at the time, it hurt to know you didn't care enough to stop me. So now ... who am I and what am I .... and what purpose do I fill here on earth?

We know what that means to have our family broken apart by something now. By tragedy. We don’t want this to any longer be a tragedy.

Notice that she uses WE allot? She's actually both talking about herself, and also trying to once again, bring them together as a family, hoping against hope, that she's 'rescued' ... to show she is loved. I truly think she WANTS them to be more forceful ... and firm .. therefore holding her responsible FINALLY for something.

I don’t want to be one of those thousands of parents that, that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their, their child again. With the potential of knowing that their child’s alive and that they’re with someone else.

The paragraph above? I think that's only for sympathy, empathy, to be felt sorry for ... to get their love and attention .. and to 'play' them into giving her attention. (but it's still about 'love', not surface love, but REAL love, meaning rules, regulations, restrictions, because they CARE about her well being and that she becomes a responsible adult).

The thought of that every day makes me sick.

This can be about any number of things, But trust me, if she's truly BPD, she isn't talking about what she 'appears' to be talking about. BPD's find it VERY hard, if not impossible, to say how they're REALLY feeling, because the moment they do, they let down their sheild of the fear of not being loved and of being abandoned.

So I think here, she may be expressing that SHE makes herself sick, that she feels what many BPD's feel, loathing of themselves, sometimes hating themselves, feeling invisible, no direction in life.

She also may be speaking of the fact that it makes her sick, that it came to this ... that she took her child's life, because she is so FOOKED up.

I know this all may seem crazy to you guys .... and I am NOT saying most BPD's kill their children or anyone for that matter, usually if anyone, they attempt to kill THEMSELVES, but in this case, if a BPD feels SO alone and lost, they may turn to this ... all though I believe that may have been the 'sociopath' side of her.

Also one more thing: Many BPD's go a bit on the wild side, drinking, sex, stealing, etc... some of it is to cover up how they REALLY feel totally empty, void of purpose, and lost. The other part of it is, to show the world that they're ok ... adjusted like everybody else is. They can NOT show the truth, their TRUE feelings of being lost, and of being scared to death of not being loved.

Sorry this was so long, and I'm not saying I'm right in every single thing here, but just thought I'd give you the perspective from the BPD's side.

Also, I'm NOT defending her doing what she did in ANY sense! Just so you know.... but letting you in on the BPD's psyche a bit. :)

Aprilshowers, I would have snipped but out of repect for such an amazingly insightful and thoughtful post, I did not. My daughter is BPD. I pray that one day she is able to reason for herself and others the way that you do. You really are amazing!!!:blowkiss::clap::clap::clap::clap:

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 09:01 PM
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:

concentric
01-20-2009, 01:40 PM
I believe KC thought of Caylee more as a younger sibling than a daughter, and there are multiple reasons, which we can go into, having to do with her instability and also her parents. This is all part of her detachment and jealousy issues with Caylee. It does enter into motive. I keep thinking of the conflict between Cain and Abel, siblings.

reeseeva
01-20-2009, 03:11 PM
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:

I agree & have felt exactly as you, regarding her detachment, when confronted with lies. She reminds me of a lamb off to be slaughtered, taking it in stride. She held this same posture prior to CA calling 911.....as an inevitable expectation:confused:

Chat Noir
01-20-2009, 07:51 PM
I think that when she says "we" she is telling her parents that it's not just her problem that it's their problem so they need to work on this together - but in reality the only one with the answer is her. Also when she says she doesn't want to be one of those parents that never sees their child again - she is trying to tug at CA's heart strings and make her feel bad about the fact that CA may never see KC again because she could be in jail for life. Lot of attempting to make GA & CA feel like crap and guilty because they have no bailed her out yet & reassuring them she is eating and sleeping - after seeing the last visit in jail I am even more convinced she killed Caylee and I feel bad for GA & CA - CA looking at her trying to read her, trying to see if she is lying about this - what a mess...Also why is KC always rubbing her left eye? Trying to hide her lying eyes???

AmyDC
01-20-2009, 10:21 PM
I have seen this behavior before, as many of you have. A child receiving no discipline, always excused behavior, nothing is their fault, or even if it is, it is brushed away. The child doesn't meet developmental stages necessary to grow and become a mature adult. They stay stuck in the child mode, pushing boundaries farther and farther and farther..... This doesn't excuse any of her behavior. What KC did is heinous at best and her lying indicates her awareness of right and wrong. She is an excellent manipulator, especially with the parents. Tugging at their heart, constantly bringing the conversation back to herself, her misery, her comfort, her needs, her lack of control over the situation (this statement by KC in the jailhouse conversations with her parents says ALOT about her guilt, as in, I don't know what to lie about next because I don't know everything that is going on). I would imagine that she has always been able to guilt her parents into ignoring what she did wrong. I would also imagine that they have often become bone weary of her antics and would probably rather continue to deny the extent of her problems rather than take any drastic action that they would again feel guilty for.

txsvicki
01-20-2009, 11:53 PM
I think that when she says "we" she is telling her parents that it's not just her problem that it's their problem so they need to work on this together - but in reality the only one with the answer is her. Also when she says she doesn't want to be one of those parents that never sees their child again - she is trying to tug at CA's heart strings and make her feel bad about the fact that CA may never see KC again because she could be in jail for life. Lot of attempting to make GA & CA feel like crap and guilty because they have no bailed her out yet & reassuring them she is eating and sleeping - after seeing the last visit in jail I am even more convinced she killed Caylee and I feel bad for GA & CA - CA looking at her trying to read her, trying to see if she is lying about this - what a mess...Also why is KC always rubbing her left eye? Trying to hide her lying eyes???


I also watched Cindy's reactions. To me, she was looking closely for lies and at times seemed horrified by what she saw in Casey. If this last visit tape was shown in order by Nancy Grace, I saw a big mood/personality swing in Casey about the time that Cindy was looking horrified. It was bizarre and scary.

jnTexas
01-22-2009, 12:28 AM
So what do you think pshyologically about the heart sticker on the duct tape? Also the pooh blanket? Why the blanket but not the favorite doll mama?

Lavanda Dolce
01-22-2009, 08:23 AM
So what do you think pshyologically about the heart sticker on the duct tape? Also the pooh blanket? Why the blanket but not the favorite doll mama?

I think it was some kind of sick ritual that she performed. Much as I hate to say this, however, it reminds me a lot of what people do when they bury their doggies or cats that have passed on. Fact is, I honestly think she viewed Caylee not as a person, a loved child, a daughter, a human being.... but a pet. I know when our dog had to be put down, of 18 1/2 years old, in late october...she went with her favorite blanket and her favorite carrot toy...however, her other favorite toy I kept, as well as clippings of her fur and her collar... as my own reminders of her to me. I think that is why she kept the baby doll. The moment I heard all this on the news...I thought about my "rosie", our dog. I just can't help thinking that psychologically that is how she viewed Caylee. a pet.

Lavanda Dolce
01-22-2009, 08:28 AM
I believe KC thought of Caylee more as a younger sibling than a daughter, and there are multiple reasons, which we can go into, having to do with her instability and also her parents. This is all part of her detachment and jealousy issues with Caylee. It does enter into motive. I keep thinking of the conflict between Cain and Abel, siblings.


i do agree with you on this aspect, as well. I do not believe she viewed her as her child..more as a rivalry...a sibling.

Lavanda Dolce
01-22-2009, 08:34 AM
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:

The only thing, Kiki, is that Casey couldn't handle discipline or boundaries set. I think even if CA and GA were strict and did not put their guards down...that it still would not have made a difference in Casey's life/personality and/or actions. She had to have been one heck of a stressful person to live with. It was clearly obvious if she doesn't hear what she wants to hear she "goes off". I believe even if any boundaries were set and Casey did not like them...she threw such a fit and totally disrupted the family dynamics that she was "given in to", by her parents, if for any reason but for them to save their own sanity.

Egoslayer
01-22-2009, 08:40 AM
It's funny because alot of people here say that CA & GA "Walk on eggshells" around Casey. I read a book called "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder".

The connections are undeniable.

reeseeva
01-22-2009, 12:01 PM
The only thing, Kiki, is that Casey couldn't handle discipline or boundaries set. I think even if CA and GA were strict and did not put their guards down...that it still would not have made a difference in Casey's life/personality and/or actions. She had to have been one heck of a stressful person to live with. It was clearly obvious if she doesn't hear what she wants to hear she "goes off". I believe even if any boundaries were set and Casey did not like them...she threw such a fit and totally disrupted the family dynamics that she was "given in to", by her parents, if for any reason but for them to save their own sanity.

Lavanda, the Anthonys "giving in" to save their sanity, was, IMHO perpetuating the problem, creating the monster they now have to deal with.
I would never have indulged that behavior, not matter what. Not only for your sake, but also for the child. They accepted this behavior for quite some time.

BetsyB
01-22-2009, 12:33 PM
KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." respectfully snipped.

I have a different view of this. I don't believe Casey begged for boundaries. I believe these words project responsibility for her actions on to others.

There is no doubt that Casey Anthony is personality-disordered. I do not believe she has BPD, though BPD certainly shares some features with antisocial personality disorder.

She is conscienceless. Her post-crime behavior has not been typical of BPD, but rather of APD/sociopathy. She does split and manipulate--but sociopaths are skillful at this, as well. Her thought patterns are too organized, IMO, for BPD.

Casey can handle boundaries perfectly well. She's handling jail just dandy.

But when push comes to shove, and she has the ability NOT to handle the boundaries, she won't---and she will do as she pleases without a thought to consequence. She tramples those around her with no thought to the effect, unless the effect will somehow influence her.

I am grateful for your insight, April--and also glad you're doing well. And I can definitely see the parallels you drew. But I think there is far, far more to Casey Anthony. (Or, rather, far less. I think she is far less. She is base and evil.)

I think we want to humanize her more so that we can understand her. But you can't understand the inexplicable, other than to say she is lacking humanity. And the diagnosis that that fits isn't BPD.

jqp54
01-22-2009, 01:13 PM
She's a sociopath, no doubt about it.

If you've ever dealt with one, you'll recognize HOW they lie, and she does this without hesitation.

This has very little to do with her parents. She was born this way.

reeseeva
01-22-2009, 01:47 PM
She's a sociopath, no doubt about it.

If you've ever dealt with one, you'll recognize HOW they lie, and she does this without hesitation.

This has very little to do with her parents. She was born this way.

So, by Cindy putting on blinders to her behavior, it helped who? Do you think Cindy knew this for a long time & chose not to address it? She is in the health profession, & has labeled KC to other people, has admitted what she thinks. It seems to be a case of pride with this family, not to have anything that appears broken, to the outside world. As LP & Tim M., having lived in the house, both describe the parents walking on eggshells around KC, & this was AFTER she was released from the last video. If I witnessed my child's behavior & lying, lie upon lie to LE & not having a job with my grandchild missing, jail would seem like heaven to them coming home.

It boggles my mind & enrages me the way the family treats her. What if they closed the door to her unless she had answers? Where would she have gone? I would not tolerate 1 minute with her, but they have for 22 yrs....they have helped make the monster she has become!

weasel
01-22-2009, 05:20 PM
I've mentioned this before, but ..... I am really surprised by the level of Casey's immaturity and the way CA and GA treat her. CA saying she "tucked Casey and Caylee" in, Casey's text messages are immature, just everything about Casey screams immaturity.

BetsyB
01-22-2009, 05:25 PM
So, by Cindy putting on blinders to her behavior, it helped who? Do you think Cindy knew this for a long time & chose not to address it? !As hard as it is for you to believe, it helped Cindy. It helped George. It helped Lee. Denial is a USEFUL tool that allows people to function until they can replace it with another tool. Sometimes, another tool is not found. Nevertheless, the denial allowed them to survive and prevented them from being swallowed whole by Casey's pathology.

In all fairness, we have no idea what Cindy did or did not do to address Casey's issues over time.

But it's irrelevant. There is nothing she COULD do to change the outcome. Casey is a sociopath. Period. Nothing could have, or would have, changed that.

Casey's behavior never gave any indication it would shift to murder. They could not have prevented Caylee's death.

But you can be sure they are doing enough self-flagellation to more than make up for all the punishment the public would like to deliver to them.

stilettos
01-22-2009, 05:28 PM
Lavanda, the Anthonys "giving in" to save their sanity, was, IMHO perpetuating the problem, creating the monster they now have to deal with.
I would never have indulged that behavior, not matter what. Not only for your sake, but also for the child. They accepted this behavior for quite some time.

I do not know if Casey is BPD or not. I do know that when we would confront our BPD daughter with lies (childhood or adulthood) she would become violent or self abusive. I became convinced that it was my responsibility to teach her right from wrong regardless. Difficult for the family, yes. The Anthony's seem to have chosen another route with their daughter. I wish we had a forensic MHP posting here to give insight.

passionflower
01-22-2009, 06:40 PM
Does anyone think that whatever happened to kc (incest? rape? abuse?) when young made her go into 2 people? zanny and kc???? jb keeps saying 'compelling photos of kc in youth'.......never saw but 2 pix of kc young.......what does he mean? why don't we see what was wrong? 1 thing is kc was not pretty like Caylee.......kc had an ackward look.

Egoslayer
01-22-2009, 08:14 PM
For BPD and other personality disorders to develop you don't need a 'shocking' youth event. Sometimes "normal" things scar children. Sometimes the abandonment or harm is real, sometimes imagined.

For example, when I was 7 my family moved to a different country, and for the first year they didn't really talk about it with me. They were very busy with visa, work, trying to get situated. I had babysitters and teachers but they spoke a different language. I developed resentment for my parents. When I was 14 I had borderline-type symptoms. (not old enough to be formally diagnosed, I think.) It got pretty bad and peaked, and then got better and better with age, to the point where I can be self-reflective of symptoms and the "unreasonable anger" that comes to you.

OK - my point is, the event can be very small and minuscule. My parents had no idea anything had happened. They were 'good' parents. They set boundaries and disciplined me, they showed care and affection - but for around 8 months they were just very busy and it affected me in a horrible way.

I hope this post doesn't backlash on me.

I also think because I had similar symptoms I'm kind of empathic towards Casey.

kew17
01-22-2009, 08:16 PM
I found something today that I found rather fitting to Casey:

"doublethink": "The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary."(Nineteen Eight-Four, George Orwell)

It so strongly fits her. Thought I'd share with the group.

Bev
01-22-2009, 08:30 PM
I doubt that we'll ever know what motivates KC, what psychological diagnosis there may be for her, if there ever is one. That kind of diagnosis comes after many, many hours spent with a patient. I can't believe these psychologists who appear on these shows and offer instant diagnoses - they should know better than that.

karen in New York
01-22-2009, 10:07 PM
Living with someone with mental illness like BPD is a lot easier said than done. Its a full time job and relentless. I think that G & C did pretty well up and until the pregnancy. Any idea whether or not Casey was in a regular classroom in school? or was she in a special group for emotionally disturbed kids? She hates authority - wonder how she was in school - or did this behavior manifest itself after the pregnancy?

passionflower
01-22-2009, 10:58 PM
Living with someone with mental illness like BPD is a lot easier said than done. Its a full time job and relentless. I think that G & C did pretty well up and until the pregnancy. Any idea whether or not Casey was in a regular classroom in school? or was she in a special group for emotionally disturbed kids? She hates authority - wonder how she was in school - or did this behavior manifest itself after the pregnancy?

I don't have a link maybe it was KIO but her high school friends said kc was 'easy' with guys...........I have a feeling that she was in all kinds of trouble as a kid, and got out of it with parents help.......I would love to know more about her youth, what makes a sociopath?

Chat Noir
01-22-2009, 11:04 PM
I don't like to admit it, but I sometimes can go into denial mode like CA. Sometimes I can't bear the truth or have to have things be perfect and going great. I can sometimes ignore something unpleasant so I don't have to deal with it. I don't know where this comes from and why but I think her mind would not let her accept the truth. I hope she can accept it now and start to heal....but I sure wish they would bury that poor baby...for goodness sake!

passionflower
01-24-2009, 12:01 AM
Does anyone know is a sociopath born with this (like chemical or gene pool)?
or are the raised that way? Is a physcopath and a sociopath the same?
I looked it up on google and got more confused. anyone know? Then the pathological liars?? where do they fit in? Trying to understand kc.......ca.......actions

jqp54
01-24-2009, 01:13 AM
So, by Cindy putting on blinders to her behavior, it helped who? Do you think Cindy knew this for a long time & chose not to address it? She is in the health profession, & has labeled KC to other people, has admitted what she thinks. It seems to be a case of pride with this family, not to have anything that appears broken, to the outside world. As LP & Tim M., having lived in the house, both describe the parents walking on eggshells around KC, & this was AFTER she was released from the last video. If I witnessed my child's behavior & lying, lie upon lie to LE & not having a job with my grandchild missing, jail would seem like heaven to them coming home.

It boggles my mind & enrages me the way the family treats her. What if they closed the door to her unless she had answers? Where would she have gone? I would not tolerate 1 minute with her, but they have for 22 yrs....they have helped make the monster she has become!

There is nothing the parents could do to 'help' KC, as personality disorders aren't treatable, especially antisocial personality disorder.

Dealing with one of these people in any kind of normal, rational way is just not possible. They lie continuously, and have no reaction to being caught in a lie - they just make up more lies to try to explain it away. The way KC behaved with the detectives during her interrogation - that's the way she IS, all the time.

The best thing they could have done is taken custody of Caylee and forced KC out on her own.

It appears to me that they simply hadn't yet accepted how sick their daughter was. They still haven't accepted it.

jqp54
01-24-2009, 01:23 AM
Does anyone know is a sociopath born with this (like chemical or gene pool)?
or are the raised that way? Is a physcopath and a sociopath the same?
I looked it up on google and got more confused. anyone know? Then the pathological liars?? where do they fit in? Trying to understand kc.......ca.......actions

I think people are born with personality disorders. Their brains are 'wired' this way from birth.

Childhood circumstances, like physical abuse or neglect by parents, can shape how a person with a personality disorder 'acts out', but no amount of good parenting can change the fact that the disorder is there.

They say that somewhere around 3% of all people are sociopaths, and it doesn't vary by culture. You find them all over the world. What that tells me is there is an evolutionary reason for their existence in our species. I suspect that the survival of our species has many times depended on the existence of a sociopath during desperate times. They were willing to do ANYTHING to survive, and they didn't feel bad about it either.

In non-desperate times, we lock them up.

robotdog
01-24-2009, 02:01 AM
they knew KC was trouble - they just NEVER IMAGINED she would go this far

did they think she would do the following ? YES

1. drugs
2. sleep around
3. drink and get drunk
4. lie
5. steal
6. lie some more
7. steal some more
8. arrested for OUI, theft, drugs
9. lie some more

10. murder i dont think they ever imagined this :furious:

Whisperer
01-24-2009, 03:36 AM
Having known some pathological narcissists, which have Borderline traits, it is always about the money. They spend and spend alot. Every one of my narcissistd have filed bankruptcy at least once. They love to buy things and buy plenty. They love luxury. But they spend other people's not their own. They usually have a stash hidden. You should look for hidden bank accounts and scams of which they are prone to get into.

On the occasional times when they are forced to spend their money, you will hear about it. If it is given freely, it is to come back many fold and that is the only reason they gave it in the first place.

Every narcissist/borderline I know would never say or admit their children lie and they never do any wrong either. They will berate the friends of the child and insist the friends are the cause of the trouble. Then they call the friends parents and create havoc. They also do this with teachers. The teachers are always wrong about their child...."and didn't you see so and so, he did the same thing...why are you picking on mine". They are the teachers worst nightmare.

Funny thing I noticed with female narcissits....many of them marry police or milltary...are they trying to find someone to control them?....or are they going to strip the person of any feelings of control the person may have. Perhaps they enjoy trying to absorb their power or take it from them.

These people are basically fearless. there are 2 exceptions:
1....Losing money. Money is their God.
2....getting into a physical altercation where they may receive bodily injury.

If any of you have ever worried that perhaps you are a narcissist....you are not...a true narcissist would never worry about such a thing.

txsvicki
01-24-2009, 04:30 AM
Even if Cindy did get Casey some help when young, I doubt if they would have diagnosed anything much other than ADD. I've found it almost impossible to get anyone to listen or to get any long term help for a young relative of mine. If anyone has gotten real help I'd appreciate advice.

GingBreade
01-24-2009, 04:56 AM
Does anyone know is a sociopath born with this (like chemical or gene pool)?
or are the raised that way? Is a physcopath and a sociopath the same?
I looked it up on google and got more confused. anyone know? Then the pathological liars?? where do they fit in? Trying to understand kc.......ca.......actions

Okay so what if Charles Manson's mom gave him up at birth and he was adppted by Mr.and Mrs. Smith? A warm family who loved kids. Would he have still been the way he was?

What about Ted Bundy and Paul Bernardo...they grew up in middle class families and were educated. Yet they were sociopathic. I think it's really funny that Charles Manson probably thinks KC is crazy.

Brini
01-24-2009, 08:32 AM
Does anyone know is a sociopath born with this (like chemical or gene pool)?
or are the raised that way? Is a physcopath and a sociopath the same?
I looked it up on google and got more confused. anyone know? Then the pathological liars?? where do they fit in? Trying to understand kc.......ca.......actions

Psychopath is the older term for sociopath, which is now displaced by antisocial personality disorder. They are all terms for the same thing. Some use "psychopath" to mean a more severe form of the disorder.

Most current theories opine that it's genetics AND upbringing.

Yes, they are all pathological liars.

Brini
01-24-2009, 08:40 AM
Okay so what if Charles Manson's mom gave him up at birth and he was adppted by Mr.and Mrs. Smith? A warm family who loved kids. Would he have still been the way he was?

What about Ted Bundy and Paul Bernardo...they grew up in middle class families and were educated. Yet they were sociopathic. I think it's really funny that Charles Manson probably thinks KC is crazy.

Nobody knows. There are "bad seeds" born to good families.

Bundy was the son of a hooker, who was into drugs. He was adopted. Maybe her drugs affected him in utero.

The latest is that something is wrong with the mirror neurons-- the system turns inward, instead of outward, and the prefrontal cortex is smaller than normal.

But, having a brutal, or the reverse, an overindulgent family prolly brings the disorder to fruition.

Brini
01-24-2009, 08:43 AM
I think people are born with personality disorders. Their brains are 'wired' this way from birth.

Childhood circumstances, like physical abuse or neglect by parents, can shape how a person with a personality disorder 'acts out', but no amount of good parenting can change the fact that the disorder is there.

They say that somewhere around 3% of all people are sociopaths, and it doesn't vary by culture. You find them all over the world. What that tells me is there is an evolutionary reason for their existence in our species. I suspect that the survival of our species has many times depended on the existence of a sociopath during desperate times. They were willing to do ANYTHING to survive, and they didn't feel bad about it either.

In non-desperate times, we lock them up.

Great post! Thanks!

Brini
01-24-2009, 08:49 AM
Does anyone think that whatever happened to kc (incest? rape? abuse?) when young made her go into 2 people? zanny and kc???? jb keeps saying 'compelling photos of kc in youth'.......never saw but 2 pix of kc young.......what does he mean? why don't we see what was wrong? 1 thing is kc was not pretty like Caylee.......kc had an ackward look.

She's not two people. She doesn't have DID-- she's a sociopath. She knows she's not Zanny, and that there IS no Zanny.

She was prolly born that way, and a permissive upbringing helped ripen it.

I think a lot of people CLEARLY swee what was wrong.

JB is talking about how adorable she looked in the baby pictures.

Thanks.

Whisperer
01-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Even if Cindy did get Casey some help when young, I doubt if they would have diagnosed anything much other than ADD. I've found it almost impossible to get anyone to listen or to get any long term help for a young relative of mine. If anyone has gotten real help I'd appreciate advice.

I agree, and possibly bi-polar if Cindy brought her in...lol
________________________

The only way, sometimes, to get help for young people is to demand it. This works better with a larger facility. You have to push the Doctors to give the child treatment or keep on going to where you can get it. You may have to go above the Dr's head and speak to a director or his boss about the situation. Don't give up.

You may hear some say there are too many meds given to children for depression and it is dangerous. They never mention how many children have killed themselves because they weren't on meds. If it is depression that is the problem, you must be on the look-out for the signs of when they are making improvement...many suicides occur on this side, not the down side. Hope this helps.

passionflower
01-24-2009, 03:13 PM
I think people are born with personality disorders. Their brains are 'wired' this way from birth.

Childhood circumstances, like physical abuse or neglect by parents, can shape how a person with a personality disorder 'acts out', but no amount of good parenting can change the fact that the disorder is there.

They say that somewhere around 3% of all people are sociopaths, and it doesn't vary by culture. You find them all over the world. What that tells me is there is an evolutionary reason for their existence in our species. I suspect that the survival of our species has many times depended on the existence of a sociopath during desperate times. They were willing to do ANYTHING to survive, and they didn't feel bad about it either.

In non-desperate times, we lock them up.

WELCOME!!
and thanks for explaining this to me.

passionflower
01-24-2009, 03:17 PM
Psychopath is the older term for sociopath, which is now displaced by antisocial personality disorder. They are all terms for the same thing. Some use "psychopath" to mean a more severe form of the disorder.

Most current theories opine that it's genetics AND upbringing.

Yes, they are all pathological liars.

the mind is so interesting........what makes them tick so to speak.......thanks

Brini
01-24-2009, 03:46 PM
the mind is so interesting........what makes them tick so to speak.......thanks


Yes, it is! :)

It's generally opined that sociopaths are born wired differently. Brutal or the opposite, excessively permissive parents can make the traits worse. In any case, they can't feel much attachment or concern for anyone but themselves. It's supposed to be about a smaller prefrontal cortex and differently-working mirror neurons. :blowkiss:

Whisperer
01-24-2009, 04:51 PM
I have been told that one is not born with narcissistic personality disorder....told to me by some psychiatrists who specialize with children.

I did not distinguish pathological narcissism from the simple personality disorder when I asked the question.

Duckley
01-24-2009, 05:00 PM
There is nothing the parents could do to 'help' KC, as personality disorders aren't treatable, especially antisocial personality disorder.

Dealing with one of these people in any kind of normal, rational way is just not possible. They lie continuously, and have no reaction to being caught in a lie - they just make up more lies to try to explain it away. The way KC behaved with the detectives during her interrogation - that's the way she IS, all the time.

The best thing they could have done is taken custody of Caylee and forced KC out on her own.

It appears to me that they simply hadn't yet accepted how sick their daughter was. They still haven't accepted it.

I have heard this too. Personality Disorders are next to impossible to treat. I once worked with a young woman with this diagnosis, and let me tell you, it was hell. There was still stuff the family could have done (in fairness, perhaps they did) - family therapy, psychiatric assessment and support, family support groups. KC's illness resulted in the family developing a dysfunctional pattern of denial for their survival. With intervention some of the decisions they made could have been different - like you say perhaps allowing KC to adopt out Caylee or adopt her themselves.


Carry on:

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4