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colomom
12-29-2008, 10:36 AM
Previous thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69317

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Injustice-1-1.jpg-----Please continue discussion here:

colomom
12-29-2008, 10:54 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Maddie712-21-08.png

Justice for Madeleine McCann!!

Texana
12-29-2008, 06:15 PM
Thanks, Colomom!

Okay, one of my New Year's Resolutions is to get cracking on getting that book from Tony ordered.

Anyone else?

colomom
12-29-2008, 07:21 PM
Thanks, Colomom!

Okay, one of my New Year's Resolutions is to get cracking on getting that book from Tony ordered.

Anyone else?

I got my copy on Christmas Eve...a wonderful present. I think it is professional and very well done. After reading it I am simply amazed that the case is where it is today.....

Great job Tony B., you are a true champion for Maddie!! :blowkiss:

....and you too Tex....:heart:

colomom
12-30-2008, 10:15 AM
Madeleine McCann: Police follow new leads

By Rod Chaytor 30/12/2008
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/tm_headline=new-leads-in-hunt-for-madeleine&method=full&objectid=21004260&siteid=115875-name_page.html

Callers claiming to have fresh information on missing Madeleine McCann have come forward after a new appeal by her parents.

Potential sightings and other leads are being followed up by a British team of former detectives who specialise in cold cases.

Parents Kate and Gerry, both 40, were delighted with the public response to their Christmas appeal, when they released a previously unseen video of their daughter.

<continues>

Delighted?? I'd be pi$$ed....
What took so long to bring forward new information and seriously, could this information really be helpful? After all this time?

colomom
12-30-2008, 10:30 AM
Thanks to James1 at 3As!

El Repuertero (Chile)

30 Diciembre 2008

GOOGLE TRANSLATION

Madeleine McCann would have been seen in Chile

In the town of Vicuna, in the north of our country a woman claims to have seen a couple of foreigners together with a minor of about five years that would correspond to the characteristics of the missing child in Portugal since May.

Written by Correspondent The Repuertero

Though it may seem illogical, a woman appeared before the investigative police in the town of Vicuna sure to have seen the smallest in the company of a man and a woman with similar characteristics to charge retraro talked to the International Police.

The woman claimed to have seen a minor next to the couple with a strong resemblance to the best of just four years that disappeared on May 3 last in Portugal.

This data is being analyzed by police who pointed out that if this information will be complete all formalities for the international order that the alleged hijacker had throughout the world.

It may be recalled that the cardiologist Gerry McCann, Madeleine's father, British child in Portugal, said to be convinced that there was a kidnapper who was hiding in the small room where she slept next to her two twin brothers, when he went to check that everything was in order.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.elrepuertero.cl/admin/render/noticia/12958&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMadeleine%2BMacAnn%2Bhabr%25C3%25ADa% 2Bsido%2Bvisto%2Ben%2BChile%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26i e%3DUTF-8

Original text: http://www.elrepuertero.cl/admin/render/noticia/12958

Texana
12-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Madeleine McCann: Police follow new leads

By Rod Chaytor 30/12/2008
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/tm_headline=new-leads-in-hunt-for-madeleine&method=full&objectid=21004260&siteid=115875-name_page.html

Callers claiming to have fresh information on missing Madeleine McCann have come forward after a new appeal by her parents.

Potential sightings and other leads are being followed up by a British team of former detectives who specialise in cold cases.

Parents Kate and Gerry, both 40, were delighted with the public response to their Christmas appeal, when they released a previously unseen video of their daughter.

<continues>

Delighted?? I'd be pi$$ed....
What took so long to bring forward new information and seriously, could this information really be helpful? After all this time?

Of course they're "delighted." They're thrilled that the myth of Madeleine's abduction can be extended longer.

And who would use the word "delighted?" Only the McCanns and their ilk. Encouraged, maybe, hopeful, but "delighted?"

Excuse me while I bang my head on some concrete.

Salem
12-30-2008, 03:47 PM
I wonder if, when it is found out what really happened, the McCanns will be required to pay back every police force that expends time and energy on these "sightings"?

I wonder if they toss and turn at night while the public continues to see little Maddie in the faces of small girls with blonde hair, desparately wanting to bring this beautiful little girl home?

And yes, after the first of the year, I will be getting the book of Maddie also :)

Happy New Year all, may 2009 be the year that Maddie comes home,

Salem

SleuthMom
12-30-2008, 10:02 PM
I wonder if, when it is found out what really happened, the McCanns will be required to pay back every police force that expends time and energy on these "sightings"?

What about EVERY SINGLE PENNY that was donated to them? Why do you all think they are so obsessed in keeping this story up? So that they can continue making money out of their daughter's murder. :furious::furious::furious:

Salem
12-30-2008, 10:21 PM
I have to agree Sleuthmom! Who ever managed to set up a "fund" within 9 days of their child going missing? And made sure that the terms for using the money included support of the parents as needed? AND who in the heck calls the search for a missing child a "campaign"? Is this common in England? I have never heard of such a thing - a lot like saying they are "delighted"!!!!

Salem

scandi
12-30-2008, 11:51 PM
I wonder if, when it is found out what really happened, the McCanns will be required to pay back every police force that expends time and energy on these "sightings"?

I wonder if they toss and turn at night while the public continues to see little Maddie in the faces of small girls with blonde hair, desparately wanting to bring this beautiful little girl home?

And yes, after the first of the year, I will be getting the book of Maddie also :)

Happy New Year all, may 2009 be the year that Maddie comes home,

Salem


Thanks Salem and ITA with you. I also am anxious to get a copy of Tony's book.


Dear Colomom, Your Weeping Angel is just so perfect as a TO. Looking at it I could feel the torture in the angel's heart for every child who is lost along the way of life before their time. Including Madeleine.

xox

colomom
12-31-2008, 10:55 AM
Hiya Scandi Grrrrlllll....

Look closer, that is not only a weeping angel but she is also the Angel of Justice. She has dropped her sword and scales to grieve for those who cannot find her.

That's my wish for 2009. Justice will lift up her scales and sword for Madeleine, and Caylee, and Rowan and for anyone who is searching for her.....

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/Tonyababyrn/happy-new-year.jpg

colomom
12-31-2008, 11:24 AM
I would start a new thread but I have a feeling it would die a slow death. There are people that have a really hard time speculating about "certain" things. So, here for you to check out....

http://maddiemaccann.hyves.nl/forum/2610301/5588/PJ_FILES_FORENSISCH_ONDERZOEK_DNA_HAAR_ENZ/

Basically:

In the analysed samples from other locations:

- The Haplotype identified by the letter K, present in 16 samples, (1 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in vehicle Volkswagen, 1 in the Renault and l in the Passat) and identical to that of Michaela Walczuch (MW) and to that of Luis Filipe Monteiro Ferro (LFMF), meaning those samples were from those persons or individuals of the same maternal bloodlines.

- The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

- The Haplotype identified by the letter R*, present in one sample from the vehicle Volkswagen, and identical in HVI, to that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa (NFPC) - letter R, meaning that sample was from that person or an individual of the same amternal bloodline.

- The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

Look what Ironside found: http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27009&st=0&sk=t&sd=a *page 6, third post from the top*
This entire thread is interesting

Salem
12-31-2008, 11:52 AM
Colomom - I am starting a new thread! This is too good to lose among are general discussion. Even if it is just a few posts, it will be well worth it to have it in one place where we can find it easily.

The way I am reading this - JT and RM were in the same apartment at some point in time? I will go read your links.

Salem

Okay EVERYBODY - go here to discuss this very very interesting report: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77286

AND answer all my questions :)

Salem

Barnaby
12-31-2008, 07:51 PM
Reference sample of blood

JRB/1 Madeleine McCann
From this sample was obtained a DNA reference sample that was different from those of her immediate family, described above. This DNA profile was the same as that obtained from possible spots of saliva existing on the pillowcase (SJM/1).

Could this possibly mean that Madeleine was neither Kate's nor Gerry's daughter? IVF with donor egg & sperm? I have posted this question in new thread also but just in case it does die a death!

Happy New Year everyone & may 2009 bring resolution in this case & rest for a precious little girl!

Salem
12-31-2008, 09:24 PM
Happy New Year everyone!

Salem

Barnaby - I don't know the answer :(

scandi
01-01-2009, 01:53 AM
Happy New Year everyone!

Salem

Barnaby - I don't know the answer :(


Back at 'cha Salem, Happy New Year ;}


I just listened to Spudgun's wonderful tribute to Madeleine, The REAL Madeleine McCann Story. It always brings me right back to base level in fighting for Madeleine.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q

Sitting here, I know Madeleine was her own very special person, full of vim and vigor and love abounding for everyone she knew.

Through Katie Malua, Spudgun gave us a piece of incredible insight: Beauty only need be a whisper


To me as a poster looking in to what happened, the magnitude of tragedy that befell her is equal to the beauty she held in her person, as could be fully appreciated by a simple whisper.


God love her and give her peace. And as with every child who is taken way before the natural time they might have had on earth, I implore God to give those in charge of the investigation great wisdom and fortitude. In this new year of 2009, let us have Justice for Madeleine and every other child whose demise needs to be avenged.


Colomom has posted the most incredible piece of art of a weeping angel who has thrown her sword and shield to the ground in the great turmoil of seeking Justice for those who can not find her. I will always remember that piece of art. xox


A special drop of LOVE to those posters who who have stayed the course for Madeleine. http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp211/smileybucket79/001_icon16.gif

XOX



PS: I posted this on my home Madeleine forum, Missing, but wanted to share it with you as well. Krams

Bewick Lady
01-01-2009, 04:44 AM
Firstly Happy New Year to you all. Let's hope it's the year we may see answers and justice for Maddie.

I am looking forward to reading Tony's booklet like many of you are. I only ordered it yesterday, I am always like a donkeys tail! Lol.

I read in a post (can't find it atm) that the McCanns were told not to show emotion whilst making a plea on tv for Maddies return. Just a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary about Jamie Bulger. Jamies mother Denise was also told to try to hold back emotions whilst making her plea for Jamies return. Denise tried to keep in control, but underneath she was crumbling and her eyes told the truth about the pain she was suffering. To me neither of the McCanns showed anything at all. To me they didn't care or are actually made of stone.

Tony Bennett
01-01-2009, 03:37 PM
I read in a post (can't find it atm) that the McCanns were told not to show emotion whilst making a plea on tv for Maddies return. Just a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary about Jamie Bulger. Jamies mother Denise was also told to try to hold back emotions whilst making her plea for Jamies return. Denise tried to keep in control, but underneath she was crumbling and her eyes told the truth about the pain she was suffering. To me neither of the McCanns showed anything at all. To me they didn't care or are actually made of stone.

Yes, Happy New Year to all.

Actually, I don't accept that the McCanns were told not to show emotion, I think they made that up, like so much else.

Bewick Lady, I think a whole book could be written on the subject of both the body language of the two McCanns and also the strange words they have often used; there's so much material out there viewable on the Net - so many interviews. We touch on body language in the booklet, but only about a third of a page I'm afraid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

colomom
01-01-2009, 05:24 PM
An interesting theory mentioned by Stevo on 3As....

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26946&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=390

"Matt Seymour's email to Interpol describing a resting place at Alentejo and being visited on the weekend of June 8-12th.

For those that don't know the history, Mr Seymour started a website inviting payments to finance a search operation in Portugal. He was rapidly shot down in flames in this forum and other places for being a crank.

Maybe his modus operandi was initially a bit hamfisted but it's interesting because there's a connection between Mr Seymour's suggestion of a final resting place and Duarte Levy's info after we found out Justine McGuiness had left some paperwork behind in the villa. Alentejo was mentioned in that article.

Maybe there was something in Mr Seymour's theories..."

A second thread was opened with the theory laid out:

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27183

21/22 of May

Gerry McCann is in the United Kingdom. Will Gerry McCann use this opportunity, in the privacy of his house, to investigate places appropriate for the grave? I think it very probable due to the attitudes of the McCanns after the return of Gerry to Portugal.

23 of May (One day after Gerry's return to Portugal)

Gerry and Kate McCann travel for Fátima passing through many zones of Portugal. I believe that this travel was done so that the McCann could see more zones where there were some of the religious buildings. Though the chapel in the Alentejo/Portel is at the top of a hill, I do not know if they managed to see it during this travel to Fátima, but they can have seen the zone on the return.

With the decided location, the McCanns passed the next days planning how to transport Madeleine for the grave in the Alentejo.

28 of May

The McCann rented the Renault Scenic himself knowing that they were going to leave for Rome the next day and that they would not be going to use it. Did they rent the Renault BEFORE leaving for Rome deliberately so that someone could use it to transport Madeleine's body while they were gone? Is this why they rented it precisely at this time?

While going to Rome the McCanns had the eyes of the whole world with them, leaving it free for someone to take Madeleine to the Alentejo.

29/30 of May

The McCanns are in Rome with the Pope. What better place to be while their daughter is buried? Without being able to make a worthy funeral for Madeleine, the best thing to do is to get a blessing of the Pope. I believe firmly that Madeleine McCann was buried while the McCanns had been in Rome.

I believe what is said that the Renault Scenic had excessive mileage. Alentejo/Portel lies more than 160km from the Beach at Luz and it explains that.

10 of June

Gerry and Kate McCann leave the Beach of Luz at the end of the afternoon to go by car up to Lisbon and to catch an aeroplane for Morocco. For what reason did the McCanns go by car to Lisbon to fly to Morocco by aeroplane when they could catch the aeroplane in Faro? Did they use this opportunity to visit Madeleine's gravestone? It is about 20 minutes by car out of Lisbon.

I noticed that with the whole detail. The chapel in the Alentejo/Portel is not a place represented by one of the black symbols, but it is great near to one of them.

I checked all the chapels, churches and religious buildings of the North of Portugal and the chapel what I retire the most obvious thing is. There is no another religious building without use that could suit more to the McCann. If I was the McCann, it would have chosen the chapel of Portel in the Alentejo. It is a sufficiently pleasant and remote place to make easy the grave of a body without being visited by anybody. It is perfect.

They do not go only for me. Glance and see if they find a better place.

Given which Madeleine is probably buried inside a bag (it is what the examinations suggest laboratoriais done to the car) they will be able to think it perhaps with a metal detector.

I wait what inform of this message the appropriate persons. I sent elements on this building to the P.J. of Portimão, but perhaps the officials of Lisbon are more well placed to proceed to investigations.

It fits in with the "paperwork" that may have been left behind by Justine McGuiness on her departure.

scandi
01-01-2009, 09:50 PM
An interesting theory mentioned by Stevo on 3As....

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26946&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=390

"Matt Seymour's email to Interpol describing a resting place at Alentejo and being visited on the weekend of June 8-12th.

For those that don't know the history, Mr Seymour started a website inviting payments to finance a search operation in Portugal. He was rapidly shot down in flames in this forum and other places for being a crank.

Maybe his modus operandi was initially a bit hamfisted but it's interesting because there's a connection between Mr Seymour's suggestion of a final resting place and Duarte Levy's info after we found out Justine McGuiness had left some paperwork behind in the villa. Alentejo was mentioned in that article.

Maybe there was something in Mr Seymour's theories..."

A second thread was opened with the theory laid out:

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27183

21/22 of May

Gerry McCann is in the United Kingdom. Will Gerry McCann use this opportunity, in the privacy of his house, to investigate places appropriate for the grave? I think it very probable due to the attitudes of the McCanns after the return of Gerry to Portugal.

23 of May (One day after Gerry's return to Portugal)

Gerry and Kate McCann travel for Fátima passing through many zones of Portugal. I believe that this travel was done so that the McCann could see more zones where there were some of the religious buildings. Though the chapel in the Alentejo/Portel is at the top of a hill, I do not know if they managed to see it during this travel to Fátima, but they can have seen the zone on the return.

With the decided location, the McCanns passed the next days planning how to transport Madeleine for the grave in the Alentejo.

28 of May

The McCann rented the Renault Scenic himself knowing that they were going to leave for Rome the next day and that they would not be going to use it. Did they rent the Renault BEFORE leaving for Rome deliberately so that someone could use it to transport Madeleine's body while they were gone? Is this why they rented it precisely at this time?

While going to Rome the McCanns had the eyes of the whole world with them, leaving it free for someone to take Madeleine to the Alentejo.

29/30 of May

The McCanns are in Rome with the Pope. What better place to be while their daughter is buried? Without being able to make a worthy funeral for Madeleine, the best thing to do is to get a blessing of the Pope. I believe firmly that Madeleine McCann was buried while the McCanns had been in Rome.

I believe what is said that the Renault Scenic had excessive mileage. Alentejo/Portel lies more than 160km from the Beach at Luz and it explains that.

10 of June

Gerry and Kate McCann leave the Beach of Luz at the end of the afternoon to go by car up to Lisbon and to catch an aeroplane for Morocco. For what reason did the McCanns go by car to Lisbon to fly to Morocco by aeroplane when they could catch the aeroplane in Faro? Did they use this opportunity to visit Madeleine's gravestone? It is about 20 minutes by car out of Lisbon.

I noticed that with the whole detail. The chapel in the Alentejo/Portel is not a place represented by one of the black symbols, but it is great near to one of them.

I checked all the chapels, churches and religious buildings of the North of Portugal and the chapel what I retire the most obvious thing is. There is no another religious building without use that could suit more to the McCann. If I was the McCann, it would have chosen the chapel of Portel in the Alentejo. It is a sufficiently pleasant and remote place to make easy the grave of a body without being visited by anybody. It is perfect.

They do not go only for me. Glance and see if they find a better place.

Given which Madeleine is probably buried inside a bag (it is what the examinations suggest laboratoriais done to the car) they will be able to think it perhaps with a metal detector.

I wait what inform of this message the appropriate persons. I sent elements on this building to the P.J. of Portimão, but perhaps the officials of Lisbon are more well placed to proceed to investigations.

It fits in with the "paperwork" that may have been left behind by Justine McGuiness on her departure.


Thanks Colomom, That is mind boggling :eek: I'll have to go read that thread tonight.

Have the PJ gone there to inspect the area? They need to take Eddie there, right? Have you read about that being a possibility?

OH, I wish I had the money and I would wire it to the PJ for that purpose. Just think if they found her body. I'm going to look up that Portel chapel. xox


Hope everyone had a wonderful New Year!

scandi
01-01-2009, 10:38 PM
I Googled Chapel of Portal in the Alentejo and it didn't come up. What I learned is that every church and chapel does have a portal, a great window.

colomom
01-05-2009, 09:57 AM
Thanks to X and Summer

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1994&page=14 #196

2009-01-05

The Madeleine Foundation - A Pledge with the Portuguese Authorities

The Madeleine Foundation has opened the New Year with a message that was submitted to several Portuguese institutions, including the Ministry of Justice, pleading for an inquest – or its equivalent under Portuguese law – to be performed in the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

Deborah Butler, chairman of the private organisation, and Anthony Bennett, a retired solicitor and present secretary of the foundation, request the Portuguese authorities to pursue further measures, in order to fully clarify the circumstances under which Madeleine McCann disappeared, on May 3rd 2007, from Praia da Luz. They have mailed a copy of their book, "What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann? - 60 Reasons which suggest that she was not abducted", together with the letter that we reproduce below.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Alberto Costa
Ministério da Justiça
Praça do Comércio
1149 - 019 Lisboa
PORTUGAL

Dear Dr. Costa,

Please find below our letter asking you to hold an inquest into the disappearance or death of Madeleine McCann.

So many of us in the United Kingdom and Portugal believe that Madeleine deserves an enquiry into how she disappeared - or perhaps died in Praia da Luz on or before 3 May 2007.

For your information, together with this letter we enclose a copy of our book: "What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann? - 60 Reasons wich suggest she was not abducted", which has been on sale in the U.K. since 8 December.

Also for your information, here is a list of other Portuguese agencies to whom we have sent this letter:

Direcção Geral da Administração da Justiça
Av. 5 de Outubro, nº 125
1069 - 044 Lisboa
correio@dgaj.mj.pt

PGR Attorney General's Office
Procuradoria Geral da República
Dr. Pinto Monteiro
Rua da Escola Politécnica, 140
1269 - 269 Lisboa
mailpgr@pgr.pt

Bar Association
Ordem dos Advogados
Conselho Geral
Largo de São Domingos, 14 - 1º
1169 - 060 Lisboa
cons.geral@cg.oa.pt

Head of the Criminal Department
Policia Judiciara Criminal Department,
Rua Pé da Cruz, 2,
8500-640 Portimão

Yours with great respect,

Deborah Butler, Chairman
Anthony Bennett, Secretary
The Madeleine Foundation
66 Chippingfield
HARLOW
Essex
CM17 0DJ
Tel: 0044 1279 635 789
Mobile: 07835 716537


The Madeleine Foundation
Combating child neglect

Registered address:
66 Chippingfield, HARLOW, Essex CM17 0DJ
Website: www.madeleinefoundation.org (http://www.madeleinefoundation.org)

Dr. Alberto Costa Thursday 1 January 2009
Ministério da Justiça
Praça do Comércio
1149 - 019 LISBOA
P - PORTUGAL

Dear Dr Costa

re: Holding of an Inquest into Madeleine McCann's disappearance /death

I write to you on behalf of The Madeleine Foundation, a membership organisation in the United Kingdom dedicated primarily to keeping alive the issue of child neglect, which we feel lies at the very heart of the case of the 'disappearance' of Madeleine McCann. At the same time, I am pleased to enclose for your attention the booklet we have published this week, titled: "What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann? - 60 Reasons which suggest that she was not abducted". It is not yet available in Portuguese.

We have examined the statement of the Portuguese Attorney-General, made in July this year [2008], in which he announced that the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance/death will be 'archived', or shelved, pending new evidence becoming available. We have also seen translation of police documents and DVDs on the case released over the past few months by the Portuguese police.

It is our view, based on the evidence – and shared we understand with the former lead investigator in the case, Goncalo Amaral - that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A in Praia da Luz, and that the parents, together perhaps with some of their other friends who were with them in Portugal, have covered up the death and know what has happened to Madeleine's body. According to the police reports and other indications, there is much evidence pointing that way. In summary, it includes:

a) the powerful evidence of the cadaver dogs, who located the smell of death, i.e. human cadaverine, in three or four locations in Apartment 5A, in the McCanns' hired car, their Renault Scenic, on the clothes of Kate McCann and on the T-shirt of one of the children, and on the soft toy known as 'Cuddle Cat'
b) evidence from DNA samples of body fluids which we understand, in summary, indicates that Madeleine died in apartment 5A but does not prove it
c) contradictory statements by the McCanns themselves and their friends about the events of 1st, 2nd and 3rd May, including various changes of story by the McCanns, and contradictions between what they, their friends and other witnesses say about the events of 1st to 3rd May 2007.

Goncalo Amaral in his book: 'The Truth about a Lie" suggests that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A and that the McCanns faked the abduction. We think his conclusion is very possible.

Had these events occurred in the United Kingdom, an inquest would - sooner or later - be held. In the U.K., inquests can be held, even in the absence of a body, if there is some evidence that the person (or child) is dead. For example, an inquest was held a few years ago on a canoeist whose kayak was found drifting in the North Sea, though no body had been found.

We write therefore to enquire if there is any similar provision in Portuguese law. Our concern is that, now that the police investigation has in effect been suspended, there is a real risk that all the circumstances surrounding Madeleine McCann's disappearance will not become known. An inquest provides an ideal opportunity for all relevant witnesses to be required to give their testimony, and be questioned. The sooner this takes place, the better, as witnesses' recollections fade, and evidence is lost.

There is much evidence in this case, thousands of pages of it according to the Policia Judiciara report released in July and since. We believe it is vital that this evidence should be presented in a court as soon as possible.

Could you please advise us as soon as possible if there is any provision in the Portuguese judicial system for holding an inquest, or any other similar public enquiry into a person's disappearance and possible death in Portugal - and also please inform us whether any moves have yet been made in Portugal to hold such an inquest or inquiry into Madeleine's 'disappearance'.

I await hearing from you.

Yours sincerely


Deborah Butler
Chairman, The Madeleine Foundation

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hey Tony B....you are
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Awesome_mc_HT_Smiley.gif

Barnaby
01-06-2009, 01:57 PM
^^^^

Great letters, hope replies will be forthcoming.

The Alentejo theory sounds extremely possible! It definitely makes a lot of sense that Madeleine was buried while the McCanns were in Rome!

Bewick Lady
01-06-2009, 02:16 PM
^^^^

Great letters, hope replies will be forthcoming.


Ditto Barnaby!

Tony, there sure is a lot that can be said about body language and also their "funny" sayings. Most of which made my skin crawl.

I got my booklet yesterday :) Brilliant reading. Excellent work Tony.

Anyone else started reading their booklet yet?

Salem
01-06-2009, 02:36 PM
Way to go Tony!!!!!!

I hope you get a positive reply. If not, maybe a petition would be in order? We can NOT do that through WS, but if you set one up and let us know, we could visit the site.....

Salem

colomom
01-06-2009, 05:13 PM
Ditto Barnaby!

Tony, there sure is a lot that can be said about body language and also their "funny" sayings. Most of which made my skin crawl.

I got my booklet yesterday :) Brilliant reading. Excellent work Tony.

Anyone else started reading their booklet yet?

I devoured it....you are correct, it is very well written. I think we will see some sort of response due to Tony's fantastic work.

Texana
01-06-2009, 11:18 PM
I can't wait to get my copy.

I have always thought it very plausible that the McCanns' visit to the Pope had hidden meaning. They did not have a meeting with the Pope, as the tabloids reported. Instead, they only joined a line of people who saw the Pope as he passed by--no private meeting or even group meeting--and they held up a photo of Madeleine to be blessed by the Pope. It was a drive by, to put it bluntly.

Their visit to the Pope was the only funeral Mass that Madeleine had, and they knew it.

Looking forward to getting the booklet, for sure.

Salem
01-06-2009, 11:43 PM
I agree Texana! Who would go to visit the pope if their child was missing such a short time? Who would have time to do that? Kinda like that "fund" they got established in 11 days........

These are the kind of things that really make you go hmmmmmm..... who cares about the makeup and the jewlry and the jogging - those can all be explained as "busy hands" to ease the mind. But the traveling? and the money? And the pope? all within in days of Maddie going missing - not weeks or months, but days..... the most horrible of days when most parents would still be trying to figure out how to cope, would be scared to leave the side of LE in the event that she was found and NEEDED her parents....... they really didn't give her much thought, did they? They tried to make it look like they were thinking about her, but they weren't really....

My opinion,

Salem

rmmbr_Cara
01-07-2009, 03:59 AM
I wish Madeleine had disappeared in the United States. People here could search suspicious places like the river near Spain and this chapel. I wonder if there are people in Portugal who still look for Madeleine.

Bewick Lady
01-07-2009, 08:24 AM
I wish Madeleine had disappeared in the United States. People here could search suspicious places like the river near Spain and this chapel. I wonder if there are people in Portugal who still look for Madeleine.

I also wonder if people in Portugal are physically looking for Madeleine. My SIL lives out there as was to come back to the UK for a couple of weeks during the christmas holidays, sadly that didn't happen as her son had an accident the morning she was due to fly. Hopefully she will be coming over now the end of January or the beginning of February.

Salem
01-07-2009, 12:25 PM
I wish Madeleine had disappeared in the United States. People here could search suspicious places like the river near Spain and this chapel. I wonder if there are people in Portugal who still look for Madeleine.

Ohhhhhh...... ME TOO!!!! I would take every vacation to look for her. I want to go to Portugal so badly.

Not to mention if she had gone missing in the US, I have a pretty good feeling that the McCanns would be KC's neighbors in the pokey. One of the biggest mess ups in Maddie's case was the heat that Portugal LE took because of the McCanns's connections. Portugal LE was not allowed to do their job completely. They were called bumblers and of course they did not have the technology that England had - so English LE was called in and in my opinion that undermined the integrity of the entire investigation. I do believe Portugal LE learned alot about processing crime scenes and using trained dogs right away, etc. But I really feel the English in the end, stemmied this case.

Salem

colomom
01-07-2009, 07:07 PM
Ohhhhhh...... ME TOO!!!! I would take every vacation to look for her. I want to go to Portugal so badly.

~snip

Salem

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Ordinateur07-1.gif
ME THREE!!!! I want to go to Portugal, I have some very specific spots I would like to check out.

Let's make a promise....if any of us comes into a ton of money (I bought a ticket for the $105 million Powerball) we will take a group with us and go!!

I have about 7 of you guys and about the same from Proboards and I would probably invite 3 or 4 from 3A's. I would pay for flights and lodging and I would reserve the Tapas for every night we were there.

What a wonderful dream.....

Barnaby
01-07-2009, 07:12 PM
^^^^^

Hope I'm among the 7 Colomon I would so love to go, not to mention meeting you all! Hope you win!

I could go to Portugal but wouldn't feel right being there alone, would need you guys!

Texana
01-07-2009, 07:22 PM
What a dream! Dream big! I love it!

Seriously, the visit with the Pope has always nagged at me. They held up a photo of Madeleine for the Pope to bless.

They didn't release Madeleine's exact height and weight, and to this day we don't seem to have an answer. They never released on their own an age-progressed or appearance changed drawing of Maddie. They never gave an exact time line of what happened before she went missing.

But they were able to travel to a town that was closed for a holiday to put up posters of Maddie, and Gerry came to the U.S. only days after Madeleine went missing, to talk to the U.S. Attorney General, presumably about a European Amber alert.

The visit to the Pope was their memorial service for Madeleine.

That's it.

Salem
01-07-2009, 09:27 PM
I agree with you Tex! 100%. What could the pope have done to help them at that point? Nothing. So why would you leave the immediate area and the LE of the place where she went missing? I understand you might travel at some point, but not in the first 2 or 3 weeks. How could you stand it!?! AND they both went....... Never happen in my family. If we had to go, one would go and one would stay. What if they found her?

colomom - I bought a lotto ticket too! If I win, we will go to Portugal!

Salem

colomom
01-07-2009, 09:30 PM
I agree with you Tex! 100%. What could the pope have done to help them at that point? Nothing. So why would you leave the immediate area and the LE of the place where she went missing? I understand you might travel at some point, but not in the first 2 or 3 weeks. How could you stand it!?! AND they both went....... Never happen in my family. If we had to go, one would go and one would stay. What if they found her?

colomom - I bought a lotto ticket too! If I win, we will go to Portugal!

Salem

Fingers and toes crossed Salem!!!

Cologirl is sending you lucky vibes because she wants to go to Portugal too!!

rmmbr_Cara
01-08-2009, 12:57 PM
I hope you win Colomom. Not dismissing Portugal's police, but someone should be looking for Madeleine who really wants her found.

colomom
01-08-2009, 03:44 PM
[Gonçalo Amaral helps English lawyer to "frame" (* ) the McCann]


24 horas
8 Janeiro 2009

Former English lawyer counts on ex-Pj inspector
Amaral strikes again against the McCann

In translations: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3142923&postcount=446

scandi
01-08-2009, 08:28 PM
[Gonçalo Amaral helps English lawyer to "frame" (* ) the McCann]


24 horas
8 Janeiro 2009

Former English lawyer counts on ex-Pj inspector
Amaral strikes again against the McCann

In translations: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3142923&postcount=446


Hi Colomom and Everyone,

I want to get everyone's thoughts on this. Negligence is a start. I am concerned about the coverup of her death and hiding the body from the law. That is if she didn't die from a hard slap to the head which could have snapped her neck and caused a fine spray of spinal fluid and blood to land on the wall behind the couch! Maybe this is the right starting point to find out the truth and lead to the cause of death and the responsibility thereof.

As to the word FRAME, I think it has a different connotation than to 'CATCH WITH A NET' which was what I thought the word tarder {tarter} says in portugues.

When you frame someone you set them up for a fall even if there is no guilt. You do it to put the blame on someone or somewhere else. IMO

To catch in a net is to position it just right so there is no way from which they can escape.

I think short of NAILING 'EM there is a better word. Maybe I'm wrong. xox

colomom
01-08-2009, 08:53 PM
Hi Colomom and Everyone,

I want to get everyone's thoughts on this. Negligence is a start. I am concerned about the coverup of her death and hiding the body from the law. That is if she didn't die from a hard slap to the head which could have snapped her neck and caused a fine spray of spinal fluid and blood to land on the wall behind the couch! Maybe this is the right starting point to find out the truth and lead to the cause of death and the responsibility thereof.

As to the word FRAME, I think it has a different connotation than to 'CATCH WITH A NET' which was what I thought the word tarder {tarter} says in portugues.

When you frame someone you set them up for a fall even if there is no guilt. You do it to put the blame on someone or somewhere else. IMO

To catch in a net is to position it just right so there is no way from which they can escape.

I think short of NAILING 'EM there is a better word. Maybe I'm wrong.
xox

Hugs and kisses Scandi....

I think the word in question means to say "put in a frame, as in a box or an area from which they cannot escape". This says to me they are referring to making sure they have an airtight case before attempting to take on the power that is the McCann. This has been the "problem" for the PJ and the Portuguese Judicial system. I think Tony's book can help add some nails to that "coffin", which is a place from which they cannot escape.

We are obviously of the same mind (as always my ggrrrlllll) :blowkiss:

And BTW....slap with fine spray....I am right there with you on that one!

scandi
01-08-2009, 10:02 PM
Hugs and kisses Scandi....

I think the word in question means to say "put in a frame, as in a box or an area from which they cannot escape". This says to me they are referring to making sure they have an airtight case before attempting to take on the power that is the McCann. This has been the "problem" for the PJ and the Portuguese Judicial system. I think Tony's book can help add some nails to that "coffin", which is a place from which they cannot escape.

We are obviously of the same mind (as always my ggrrrlllll) :blowkiss:

And BTW....slap with fine spray....I am right there with you on that one!



Thanks Colomom, That makes perfect sense not using the word frame as a verb. Yes, as in a box that has been constructed on a frame that will hold someone in an airtight environment.

That slap, I just have an inkling in my bones about that too. Remember the PJ said she died a violent death? I thought I read that a few times. I don't think there was anything delicate about her death, like her simply being overdosed and falling into a deep sleep.

To trap and secure those who have evaded the law by cutting deals with those in high places and very cleverly became the sainted parents of an abducted child in a foreign country, it will have to be a well strategized plan to accomplish Justice for this little mite of a girl.

I have every hope it will succeed. There are true Champions for Madeleine hard at work here. I can not give them enough KRAMS

Texana
01-09-2009, 08:19 PM
The McCanns will meet justice in this world or the next.

I think Madeleine climbed up on the couch and then fell. I think the McCanns fell asleep after a night out, and found her the next morning. They had time to make a plan, but not a perfect plan.

Texana
01-12-2009, 08:10 PM
I just got my copy of Tony Bennett's booklet, What really happened to Madeleine McCann?

People! Get this book! It's riveting and Tony lays out beautifully all the things we spend hours and page after page of posts discussing.

There is nothing but hard cold fact in the book: what was found, what was said. If you have any interest at all in knowing what the facts are--and drawing the undeniable conclusions about what happened to Madeleine McCann--you need to get this book.

I'm back to reading it. :)

colomom
01-14-2009, 12:19 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23619058-details/Kate+and+Gerry+McCann/article.do

Read anything there that makes your blood boil?? You first....

ThoughtFox
01-14-2009, 12:24 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23619058-details/Kate+and+Gerry+McCann/article.do

Read anything there that makes your blood boil?? You first....

This fatal sentence that always turns up:

"There is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm."

Echoes of Gerry. :furious: Ya know, if a child is missing and presumed kidnapped, they have already been "harmed." Is this just a Britishism, or what?

It's just like Gerry saying that he expects to find Madeleine "in good health." Oh really . . . :behindbar

colomom
01-14-2009, 12:24 PM
Hey Tony B....

If you happen to stop by....

How many books have you sent out? How many in the UK? How many over here?

I was just wondering if the interest in your book and the lack of interest in the "fund" is what precipitated the trip to Portugal.

Salem
01-14-2009, 12:39 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23619058-details/Kate+and+Gerry+McCann/article.do

Read anything there that makes your blood boil?? You first....

What a crock of you know what!!!!!:furious::furious::furious:

Her abduction????? What abduction?????

Okay - the whole thing made my blood boil!!!!111:furious::furious::furious:

Salem

rmmbr_Cara
01-14-2009, 02:32 PM
It's all BS.

april4sky
01-19-2009, 06:56 AM
Madeleine McCann detectives uncover Spanish child porn network

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1121703/Madeleine-detectives-uncover-Spanish-child-porn-network.html

Thirteen people have been arrested in a police operation sparked by the search for the missing youngster.
Barcelona-based private detectives Metodo 3 were hired by Gerry and Kate McCann to help find Madeleine

They reported their finding's to Spain´s National Police who launched an operation to hunt down the paedophiles distributing the videos.

Armed police launched a series of raids across Spain last month and arrested 13 people.
Ten more are being formally investigated by a judge at a Barcelona court, who is overseeing the police operation.

Agency director Francisco Marco said videos were 'the worst images I have seen in my life.

He added: 'In the video all the victims are under ten years old. I am satisfied to have taken out of circulation more than 20 paedophiles, and those who will be arrested in the future.'
*****
Metodo 3 have been maligned by many because they haven't yet found Madeleine but it's thanks to both Madeleine's fund and Metodo 3 these poor abused children may get the help they desperately need.

Well done Metodo 3 :clap::clap::clap:

Salem
01-19-2009, 11:03 AM
I agree April4Sky - well done Metodo 3.

I can support any end to child abuse, no matter who brings it on and this gives me hope that the loss of Maddie is not in vain.

Bless all the children and let all the perps fry.

Salem

colomom
01-19-2009, 12:58 PM
Thanks to Duarte Levy

google translation

19/01/2009

Metodo 3 is seeking to restore its image after Madeleine McCann

Detectives are seeking to take credit for the dismantling of a network to exchange images pedophiles
Metodo 3, the detective agency that Catalan McCann served during the months that followed the disappearance of Madeleine, now seeks to restore its image, tarnished by the lack of results in this case but also by recent allusions made by the Spokesman for the couple.

Francisco Marco, the director of Metodo 3 to convince the Spanish daily El Mundo of his detectives had helped the Spanish police to arrest members of a network of pedophiles on the Internet images, information contradicted by a source the National Police.

"This agency is not responsible for the operation. The network in question was already under supervision of our services for some time, but we await the right moment to catch up people and put an end to their activities, "said a spokesman for the Spanish National Police, contacted by SMM, stressing that" the intervention of the agency has only rush was a risk to wait knowing that private , especially those, had information and could jeopardize the work of our investigators. "

According to the newspaper, known for its relations with the agency in Barcelona, information collected by Metodo 3 detectives during their investigation into the disappearance of Maddie, have enabled the Computer Crimes Squad Barcelona National Police up to 23 users, of which 13 were arrested during the operation "Lolita P-mix" launched by the Spanish authorities.

Francisco Marco said the daily that the agency had established a call center to disclose the worldwide disappearance of Madeleine McCann and after that received an email saying that the small British video appeared on a pedophile, they arrived to locate a series of images exchanged on networks "Peer 2 Peer" Donkey Gnuteklla and 2000. Maddie was not on any photo or video Metodo 3 but was forced to convey information to the Computer Crimes Squad of the National Police in Barcelona, a legal obligation to which even the detectives can not escape.

Since the establishment of the Investigation Brigade of Science in 1995, several thousand people were arrested in Spain or abroad, for crimes related to pedophilia, particularly the exchange of photos or videos on the Internet. The Brigade also maintains an excellent collaboration with other police forces abroad, which enabled him to contribute directly to the dismantling of the larger networks.

Duarte Levy (Huelva)

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/archive/2009/01/19/metodo-3-cherche-a-redorer-son-image-dans-l-apres-madeleine.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMetodo%2B3%2Bcherche%2B%25C3%25A0%2Br edorer%2Bson%2Bimage%2Bdans%2Bl%25E2%2580%2599apr% 25C3%25A8s%2BMadeleine%2BMcCann%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG %26ie%3DUTF-8

No matter who is responsible, thank God for the arrests.

Barnaby
01-19-2009, 07:41 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23619058-details/Kate+and+Gerry+McCann/article.do

Read anything there that makes your blood boil?? You first....

Yes of course she is being treated like a Princess somewhere!

More money for the fund, huh!

Yes it makes my blood boil!

I wonder what part Metodo really did play in the operation to dismantle the Pedophile ring? Glad these beasts have been arrested anyway!

april4sky
01-19-2009, 08:34 PM
Thanks to Duarte Levy

google translation

19/01/2009

Metodo 3 is seeking to restore its image after Madeleine McCann

Detectives are seeking to take credit for the dismantling of a network to exchange images pedophiles
Metodo 3, the detective agency that Catalan McCann served during the months that followed the disappearance of Madeleine, now seeks to restore its image, tarnished by the lack of results in this case but also by recent allusions made by the Spokesman for the couple.

Francisco Marco, the director of Metodo 3 to convince the Spanish daily El Mundo of his detectives had helped the Spanish police to arrest members of a network of pedophiles on the Internet images, information contradicted by a source the National Police.

"This agency is not responsible for the operation. The network in question was already under supervision of our services for some time, but we await the right moment to catch up people and put an end to their activities, "said a spokesman for the Spanish National Police, contacted by SMM, stressing that" the intervention of the agency has only rush was a risk to wait knowing that private , especially those, had information and could jeopardize the work of our investigators. "

According to the newspaper, known for its relations with the agency in Barcelona, information collected by Metodo 3 detectives during their investigation into the disappearance of Maddie, have enabled the Computer Crimes Squad Barcelona National Police up to 23 users, of which 13 were arrested during the operation "Lolita P-mix" launched by the Spanish authorities.

Francisco Marco said the daily that the agency had established a call center to disclose the worldwide disappearance of Madeleine McCann and after that received an email saying that the small British video appeared on a pedophile, they arrived to locate a series of images exchanged on networks "Peer 2 Peer" Donkey Gnuteklla and 2000. Maddie was not on any photo or video Metodo 3 but was forced to convey information to the Computer Crimes Squad of the National Police in Barcelona, a legal obligation to which even the detectives can not escape.

Since the establishment of the Investigation Brigade of Science in 1995, several thousand people were arrested in Spain or abroad, for crimes related to pedophilia, particularly the exchange of photos or videos on the Internet. The Brigade also maintains an excellent collaboration with other police forces abroad, which enabled him to contribute directly to the dismantling of the larger networks.

Duarte Levy (Huelva)

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/archive/2009/01/19/metodo-3-cherche-a-redorer-son-image-dans-l-apres-madeleine.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMetodo%2B3%2Bcherche%2B%25C3%25A0%2Br edorer%2Bson%2Bimage%2Bdans%2Bl%25E2%2580%2599apr% 25C3%25A8s%2BMadeleine%2BMcCann%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG %26ie%3DUTF-8

No matter who is responsible, thank God for the arrests.http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article2147562.ece (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article2147562.ece)

A spokesman at National Police headquarters in Madrid confirmed today that information supplied by the Metodos agency had led to the arrests.
He added “abundant material” was seized including 28 hard discs containing pornographic film using various children, all of them younger than ten.

*******
They never claimed to be responsible for the actual operation.:waitasec:

What Metodo 3 did do was pass over to the Spanish police the information and video's they had collected.

It seems Mr Levy can't bring himself to give credit where credit is due. :sick:

The part Metodo played was clearly important not just for the victims on the video's but for any other children these particular evil perps would surely have gone on to victimise in the future.

Well done Metodo 3. :clap::clap::clap:

colomom
01-19-2009, 08:44 PM
Like I said...

No matter who is responsible, thank God for the arrests.

april4sky
01-19-2009, 08:46 PM
Like I said...

No matter who is responsible, thank God for the arrests.Thats BIG of you! :)
But at least it's something we can agree on. :clap::clap::clap:

april4sky
01-19-2009, 08:54 PM
I agree April4Sky - well done Metodo 3.

I can support any end to child abuse, no matter who brings it on and this gives me hope that the loss of Maddie is not in vain.

Bless all the children and let all the perps fry.

Salem
Hi Salem :wave:

I do hope the children in the video's can be traced and helped.

And agree with you...let the perps fry. :burn:

april4sky
01-27-2009, 04:11 AM
Forensic Scientist's statement from the DVD

Regarding the hair tested by the FSS laboratory Birmingham....

*******

Witness deposition: Andrew Lloyd Palmer; Age: Older than 18 years
Profession: Forensic scientist
Address: FSS
References: FSS: 300655190, 400972691; Client: Operation TASK
CJS/URN: 07/06085

I declare that:
This deposition (comprising five pages signed by me) is the truth, to the best of my knowledge, and that I give it knowing that, if it should be presented as evidence, I would be subject to legal penalty should I have declared anything that I know to be false or that I think is not true;
I declare also that,
I am expert in the field of forensic sciences and that I was asked to give a deposition. I confirm that I have read the guidelines contained in the document Disclosure: Expert's evidence and unused material, that specifies my functions and documents my responsibilities, with respect to disclosure as an expert witness.
------------excerpt ---------------

Signed 9 November 2007

Qualifications and experience
I am a qualified Chartered Biologist [Footnote 6 states: The highest professional level achievable] and a member of the Biological Institute. I have 25 years experience as a forensic scientist. During this period I have examined hundreds of objects in the detection of blood, semen, saliva, fibres, hair, down and other trace material derived from [human] contact. I have been present at many crime scenes, having given technical opinions in various cases involving the detection of blood and the interpretation of samples of blood spots/specks. I have drafted reports and have given depositions in numerous cases of homicide, sexual violence and other cases involving the transfer of body fluids and the interpretation of the results of DNA profiles. I am a forensic ?doctor/practitioner?, registered with the Order [presumably of Forensic Medecine], specialising in DNA analysis, body fluids, capillary distribution [system of blood flow around the human body], down, hair and fibres.
Laboratory reference
The lab reference of this case is 300655190
Objects received
According to the lab records of 7 August and 6 September 2007 the objects referred to in this report entered the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, having been remitted by the Police Science Laboratory of Portugal and by the Leicestershire (UK) Police, respectively.
Objective
The objective of my examination was to determine if down or hair was recovered from the Renault Scenic 59-DA-27 and, if affirmative, to determine if those may have come from Madeleine McCann.
Mobilisation of scientific support people
The examination of the objects in this case was done with the assistance of scientific support people. A list of those people, together with a brief description of the work that each performed, is in the Forensic Examination Record/Register, which I present as exhibit ALP/1. It is a complete record of all work done, together with notes made during the examination. These notes are available in the lab for verification, if necessary.
Examination and results
Reference objects
I received [obtained] information from the pillow-case SJM/1, the tops SJM2, 4 and 5, and the hairbrush SJM/36 belonging to Madeleine McCann or used by her. The hair found on these objects was used in substitution of [in place of] reference samples of her hair, [which were] not considered to be authentic samples of her hair.

No hair was recovered from the pillow-case SJM/1 nor the hairbrush SJM/36.

A total number of twelve [12] hairs or hair fragments were recovered from the tops SJM/2, SJM/4 and SJM/5. All of these appeared to be hair and not down, being mainly blonde in colour. One of the hairs was brown and distinctly darker than the other hairs, suggesting, at the least, that this was a hair from someone else.

The remaining eleven hairs/fragments varied in length from 4 millimetres to 45 millimetres [~1/8" to ~1,3/4"]. I could not conclude that all hairs were from the same person. If they had been from Madeleine McCann, then they are not representative/typical/characteristic of a sample of her hair, given the length of that seen in photographs of her.

Objects from the Renault Scenic - licence plate 59-DA-27
The following objects recovered from the scenic were subjected to examination:
1A, 1B, 1C, 1D,
2A, 2B, 2C, 2D, 2E,
3,
4A, 4B, 4C,
5A, 5B, 5C,
6A, 6B, 6C,
7A, 7B, 7C,
8A, 8B, 8C,
9 and
11 (2 objects).

There were more than two hundred hairs, down or fragments of hair and down. The majority appeared to be different from the blonde reference hairs recovered from SJM2, 4 and 5. Furthermore, no blonde hair consistent with that seen in photographs of Madeleine McCann was found.

Approximately 15 hairs, down or fragments were blonde and fair, presenting a similarity with the reference material. All were of insufficient length to make a solid [definitive] comparison. Furthermore, they are too short to do mitocondrial DNA tests. Folicle root material is insufficient for standard DNA tests.

Four hairs - one from 7B and three from 7C - were sent for Low Copy Number DNA testing. The results of those tests will be presented by my colleague John Lowe.

Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.

The conclusions expressed in the present deposition are based on information available at the date of the examination. In the case that there are changes to that information, or additional information becomes available, it may be necessary to reconsider my interpretation and conclusions. That re-evaluation will be most effective when done immediately prior to any judgement.

A.L. Palmer
*******
None of the hair tested could be identified as Madeleine's.

And I wonder who started the "rumour," and why? that the FSS in Birmingham were not equipped to test hair.

april4sky
01-28-2009, 09:23 AM
From the Files...Regarding fingerprints
******
A - Unnumbered page between pages 884 and 885 in Processo vol 4.
At 01:00am on 4 May 2007 I, JB, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club: Inside glass of the window in the children's bedroom.
Five prints were recovered; three of the middle finger of the left hand and two of the index finger of the left hand of the mother of the missing child.
Only the inside of the glass was examned at this time due the fact that it was night and the location was sealed until there was sufficient light to allow the examination of the residence to be completed.

B - Pages 967-972 Processo vol 4.
At 11:00am on 4 May 2007 I, IT, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.
- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.
- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
C - Pages 1470-07, 1498 Processo vol 4.
Various Interpol communications from police in eight countries around the world re: comparison of fingerprints with those retained in the databases of those countries.
Several prints were unusable for comparison purposes; all others were compared with no results.
********

So there were fingerprints recovered that couldn't be traced.

Who's to say none of these belonged to the abductor.

And none of the fingerprints found on the outside blinds of the childrens room were confirmed as belonging to Kate....
.....Which gives the "lie" to the claim, "often backed up by a picture of said print," that they were Kates.

So another lie bites the dust.

Claycat
01-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Wow, that's interesting information about the hair and the fingerprints, April!

Salem
01-28-2009, 03:42 PM
My bold, highlighting, etc. and snipping Forensic Scientist's statement from the DVD

Laboratory reference
The lab reference of this case is 300655190
Objects received
According to the lab records of 7 August and 6 September 2007 the objects referred to in this report entered the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, having been remitted by the Police Science Laboratory of Portugal and by the Leicestershire (UK) Police, respectively.
Objective
The objective of my examination was to determine if down or hair was recovered from the Renault Scenic 59-DA-27 and, if affirmative, to determine if those may have come from Madeleine McCann.
Examination and results
Reference objects
I received [obtained] information from the pillow-case SJM/1, the tops SJM2, 4 and 5, and the hairbrush SJM/36 belonging to Madeleine McCann or used by her. The hair found on these objects was used in substitution of [in place of] reference samples of her hair, [which were] not considered to be authentic samples of her hair.

No hair was recovered from the pillow-case SJM/1 nor the hairbrush SJM/36. So the only hair used as comparison was the hair from the tops (which I assume means shirts?) Hair from a brush that was more than likely used by all the McCanns (just speculation here) but nontheless, not a reliable sample.

A total number of twelve [12] hairs or hair fragments were recovered from the tops SJM/2, SJM/4 and SJM/5. All of these appeared to be hair and not down, being mainly blonde in colour. One of the hairs was brown and distinctly darker than the other hairs, suggesting, at the least, that this was a hair from someone else.

The remaining eleven hairs/fragments varied in length from 4 millimetres to 45 millimetres [~1/8" to ~1,3/4"]. I could not conclude that all hairs were from the same person. So these hairs were used in substitution of the "reference" hairs - when there was no value to them???? If they had been from Madeleine McCann, then they are not representative/typical/characteristic of a sample of her hair, given the length of that seen in photographs of her.

Objects from the Renault Scenic - licence plate 59-DA-27
The following objects recovered from the scenic were subjected to examination:
1A, 1B, 1C, 1D,
2A, 2B, 2C, 2D, 2E,
3,
4A, 4B, 4C,
5A, 5B, 5C,
6A, 6B, 6C,
7A, 7B, 7C,
8A, 8B, 8C,
9 and
11 (2 objects).

There were more than two hundred hairs, down or fragments of hair and down. The majority appeared to be different from the blonde reference hairs recovered from SJM2, 4 and 5 which were unreliable samples, apparently to begin with. Furthermore, no blonde hair consistent with that seen in photographs of Madeleine McCann was found. So does this mean that this blonde hair was yellow blonde or red blonde or something different than Maddie's blond hair? What was the difference? It had to be a significant difference if the difference could be determined by a visual comparison with a photograph.

Approximately 15 hairs, down or fragments were blonde and fair, presenting a similarity with the reference material. Which, see comments above, were UNRELIABLE. All were of insufficient length to make a solid [definitive] comparison. Furthermore, they are too short to do mitocondrial DNA tests. I'm not sure I believe this given the forensics done in the Caylee case. This facility is supposed to be tops in the world and for all intents and purposes I would say our Quintana FBI labs would knock these guys out of the water - no questions asked! Folicle root material is insufficient for standard DNA tests.

Four hairs - one from 7B and three from 7C - were sent for Low Copy Number DNA testing. The results of those tests will be presented by my colleague John Lowe. So where are these results?

Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs again, unreliable samples so why did they continue to use them for comparison???? from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann. The forensics lab in the Caylee case put a hair under a microscope and announced that it was structurally similar to Caylee's hair. Why could this lab not do the same? Why were their samples so unreliable? Why could not the McCann's produce one reliable piece of hair from Maddie's head? It is obvious they brushed her hair, at least on occasion or it would not have been in pigtails.

The conclusions expressed in the present deposition are based on information available at the date of the examination. In the case that there are changes to that information, or additional information becomes available, it may be necessary to reconsider my interpretation and conclusions. That re-evaluation will be most effective when done immediately prior to any judgement. Well, yes, it is necessary to reconsider this guy's interpretation because, myself, as a lay person, am completely astounded by this person's audacity in writting such a report that is worth less than the paper it is written on.

A.L. Palmer
*******
None of the hair tested could be identified as Madeleine's.

And I wonder who started the "rumour," and why? that the FSS in Birmingham were not equipped to test hair. I started that "rumor" and I stand by it (actually maybe I didn't start it, but I wholeheartedly continue to support it). This "expert" couldn't even compare Maddie's hair structure under a microscope. I firmly believe the FSS duped the PLE in this testing of forensic evidence.

Nothing amazing here.........

Salem

colomom
01-28-2009, 05:26 PM
I know, I have seen all this stuff before April and I remain, the same as I ever was. :)

Other than the quote of the day I try to post mostly "new" news...

colomom
01-28-2009, 05:30 PM
Forensic Scientist's statement from the DVD

~snip

Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.

~snip
None of the hair tested could be identified as Madeleine's.

And I wonder who started the "rumour," and why? that the FSS in Birmingham were not equipped to test hair.

To me that reads like the FSS was unable to perform the tests not that they performed the test with negative results.

That's probably where the "rumor" originated....

april4sky
01-28-2009, 09:01 PM
My bold, highlighting, etc. and snipping I started that "rumor" and I stand by it (actually maybe I didn't start it, but I wholeheartedly continue to support it). This "expert" couldn't even compare Maddie's hair structure under a microscope. I firmly believe the FSS duped the PLE in this testing of forensic evidence.

Nothing amazing here.........

Salem
They could only test the samples they were given Salem! Who collected the samples?

Your theory only works if you buy into "conspiracy theories"....and therefore read into the results whatever you choose....and for that you don't need "evidence"

Many people have been smeared with accusations that they have supposedly lied and conspired to save the McCanns....
....Even Prime minister Gordon Brown, Clarence Mitchell, the British media in its entirity, the Tapas 9, some of the MW staff, the Ocean Club staff and others.

It's no surprise then that this list now includes the World Renowned FSS in Birmingham......Oh yes the FSS are going to jeopardize their well deserved reputation to help the McCanns.
I don't think so!!

Wasn't there another false "rumour" doing the rounds too that the FSS in Birmingham were not equipped to test hair?
Amazing how quiet it's gone about this particular claim.

Even for you Salem isn't it all begining to sound more than a little ridiculous.

april4sky
01-28-2009, 09:13 PM
To me that reads like the FSS was unable to perform the tests not that they performed the test with negative results.

That's probably where the "rumor" originated....
Here are some pictures of the (broken, smashed, jemmied) shutters I have collected Tex:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Shutter1.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Shutter2.png

Close-up of the only fingerprint found, Kate McCann's:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/KMFingerprint.png

Crime scene picture:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/TheWindow-1.jpg
__________________
Or maybe it started here colomom.

You claimed it was Kate's fingerprint.....Post No. 6 on the "Looking back thread."

You can't have seen any "confirmation" that it was Kate's fingerprint.

april4sky
01-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Wow, that's interesting information about the hair and the fingerprints, April!Hi Claycat. :blowkiss:

It is interesting now that we're getting the hear the actual truth of what was found.

It backs up the conclusion in the Final Report. :clap::clap:

Texana
01-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Here are some pictures of the (broken, smashed, jemmied) shutters I have collected Tex:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Shutter1.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Shutter2.png

Close-up of the only fingerprint found, Kate McCann's:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/KMFingerprint.png

Crime scene picture:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/TheWindow-1.jpg
__________________
Or maybe it started here colomom.

You claimed it was Kate's fingerprint.....Post No. 6 on the "Looking back thread."

You can't have seen any "confirmation" that it was Kate's fingerprint.

Setting aside the fingerprint issue for a minute, those shutter photos are the same ones already posted, April.

They don't look damaged, smashed, or jemmied to me. JMO.

FWIW ,the last time, the correct spelling is "jimmied."

I don't know why that bothers me.

scandi
01-28-2009, 11:33 PM
Hi April, Salem, Colomom and Texana,

I've been taking a bit of a break from the case but always check in to see what you guys have to say and see whaz up!

It is so hard to see almost nothing cookin', and thought the wheels were supposedly grinding away behind closed doors. Hopefully that is happening and we just haven't heard yet.

Is there any news about the Cipriano case and Amaral? Anything more about the paper Justine left under the couch in the villa and the possibility Madeleine is at rest near the Spanish border?

I am ready for something BIG to BREAK. Good Golly Miss Molly, ain't it about time for that? :rolleyes::rolleyes:


:blowkiss: Scandi

april4sky
01-29-2009, 03:01 AM
Setting aside the fingerprint issue for a minute, those shutter photos are the same ones already posted, April.

They don't look damaged, smashed, or jemmied to me. JMO.

FWIW ,the last time, the correct spelling is "jimmied."

I don't know why that bothers me.I know the photo's have been posted before Texana.
It's the claim below the picture that is the issue so I don't think we can set it aside.

That's because as part of the "big picture" it's claims like this one that have damaged the search for Madeleine IMO.

I wonder how many people believed it?

I think we need to remember that these are real people's lives that are being affected.

I don't know where colomom picked up this particular smear...but just a couple of guesses....it's either a hate forum or a hate blog. :rolleyes:

It's impossible for us to tell if the shutters had been Jemmied/Jimmied. We also don't know the condition of them, as in worn/poor.

Not sure of the correct spelling Texana :)...it's possibly just an across the pond pronunciation difference, as in "Tomato."
But Jemmied sounds right to me. :)

Just checked on google...
Noun 1. jemmy - a short crowbar; "in Britain they call a jimmy and jemmy"
.....So I guess both are correct. :)

"If" Kate herself made the statement about the shutters there's nothing wrong with that. I have only read this particular word attributed to her but I would think it would have been perfectly natural under the awful circumstances to wonder if an abducter had entered or left that way.

colomom
01-29-2009, 11:35 AM
I know the photo's have been posted before Texana.
It's the claim below the picture that is the issue so I don't think we can set it aside.

That's because as part of the "big picture" it's claims like this one that have damaged the search for Madeleine IMO.

I wonder how many people believed it?

I think we need to remember that these are real people's lives that are being affected.

I don't know where colomom picked up this particular smear...but just a couple of guesses....it's either a hate forum or a hate blog. :rolleyes:

It's impossible for us to tell if the shutters had been Jemmied/Jimmied. We also don't know the condition of them, as in worn/poor.

Not sure of the correct spelling Texana :)...it's possibly just an across the pond pronunciation difference, as in "Tomato."
But Jemmied sounds right to me. :)

Just checked on google...
Noun 1. jemmy - a short crowbar; "in Britain they call a jimmy and jemmy"
.....So I guess both are correct. :)

"If" Kate herself made the statement about the shutters there's nothing wrong with that. I have only read this particular word attributed to her but I would think it would have been perfectly natural under the awful circumstances to wonder if an abducter had entered or left that way.

Isn't that strange how that happens. You read a statement from so many sources that you forget where it originally came from. I did a basic search and while there were many hits, you were right, most were from blogs (I wouldn't goes as far as referring to them as "a hate forum or a hate blog") and I could not easily put my hands on another source. I suppose even if I could find one someone would find a reason to discredit that source. Besides, so what...Kate's fingerprint "may" have been found on the shutter of the apartment they had been living in....that does not prove a thing. She could have touched the window, opening it from the inside 2 or 3 days earlier. While some might consider it more appropriate to phrase the caption like this: "Close-up of the only fingerprint found, which was allegedly Kate McCann's"

I seriously doubt if my posting on an insignificant (to the McCanns) forum will be the end of them. They probably could care less. I know I would have much more important things on my mind. Like what people were saying in my own country.

So it is a good thing that my posts are all signed: All of my posts are simply, my opinion. I just want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

And finally, I would hope that no one would make any kind of final judgements about anybody involved in this case based on a forum post. One would hope that people would take the time to read as much as they could get their hands on and then decide for themselves what they think may have happened. Then they can post their ideas on a forum and people can discuss/dismiss/agree/disagree.... :clap:

Salem
01-29-2009, 01:05 PM
Respectfully snipped ~They could only test the samples they were given Salem! Who collected the samples?

Your theory only works if you buy into "conspiracy theories"....and therefore read into the results whatever you choose....and for that you don't need "evidence"

Wasn't there another false "rumour" doing the rounds too that the FSS in Birmingham were not equipped to test hair?
Amazing how quiet it's gone about this particular claim.

Even for you Salem isn't it all begining to sound more than a little ridiculous.

Well April - in this particular case, I am going with the conspiracy theory on why the McCanns were not held accountable. I read the report and highlighted the discrepancies and the "expert's" doubletalk. Read the report critically - the expert blatently tells you why there were no results. AND I stand by the "rumour" that the FSS apparently is not equipped to test hair. They traded unreliable samples for uncertain samples. Apparently they could not review the hair with a working microscope.... the report goes on. If I performed science like this, I wouldn't expect to get results either. So why weren't the tests performed in an acceptable, scientific manner? And why wasn't it explained in a manner that was easily understandable? It is my firm opinion, which will not change without further explanation from the FSS, that the FSS purposely cluttered up these tests in order to hide either the truth of the matter or protect the McCanns for whatever reason. I don't know why they would do that, but as far as I am concerned, the EVIDENCE is in the very report you posted earlier and I responded to in red because the whole thing makes me angry! I have no faith in the FSS!

Hi April, Salem, Colomom and Texana,

I've been taking a bit of a break from the case but always check in to see what you guys have to say and see whaz up!

It is so hard to see almost nothing cookin', and thought the wheels were supposedly grinding away behind closed doors. Hopefully that is happening and we just haven't heard yet.

Is there any news about the Cipriano case and Amaral? Anything more about the paper Justine left under the couch in the villa and the possibility Madeleine is at rest near the Spanish border?

I am ready for something BIG to BREAK. Good Golly Miss Molly, ain't it about time for that? :rolleyes::rolleyes:


:blowkiss: Scandi

Hi Scandi :)

I am ready for a break also! Anything! I want this baby to come home NOW!

Salem

scandi
01-29-2009, 03:17 PM
Respectfully snipped ~

Well April - in this particular case, I am going with the conspiracy theory on why the McCanns were not held accountable. I read the report and highlighted the discrepancies and the "expert's" doubletalk. Read the report critically - the expert blatently tells you why there were no results. AND I stand by the "rumour" that the FSS apparently is not equipped to test hair. They traded unreliable samples for uncertain samples. Apparently they could not review the hair with a working microscope.... the report goes on. If I performed science like this, I wouldn't expect to get results either. So why weren't the tests performed in an acceptable, scientific manner? And why wasn't it explained in a manner that was easily understandable? It is my firm opinion, which will not change without further explanation from the FSS, that the FSS purposely cluttered up these tests in order to hide either the truth of the matter or protect the McCanns for whatever reason. I don't know why they would do that, but as far as I am concerned, the EVIDENCE is in the very report you posted earlier and I responded to in red because the whole thing makes me angry! I have no faith in the FSS!



Hi Scandi :)

I am ready for a break also! Anything! I want this baby to come home NOW!

Salem



YaYa min vann :blowkiss:


About that hair. I still have reservations as to what FSS learned about it.


I think we will agree there was great impetus on the part of the McCann's and their staff to minimize anything about the case that might implicate them or even make them look bad. Pressures from their powerful friends for instance. And I think FSS also felt the brunt of their agressive tactics.

The reason I say that is there was a link stating the hair found in the boot of the car was Madeleine's. It was in mid-September soon after they were made Arguidos. Plus, at ForMadeleine we had a poster who was affiliated with the GNR in Portugal who confirmed to us this was true. He had also given us this info a few days before it was published in the paper.

The way I look at it, what the public knows about these particulars means nothing even tho we want to know everything! The Prosecutor has all the facts and correct info which is what counts.

Someday when the political pressures in the case from both England and Portugal are relaxed the truth will come out IMO. I was so hoping both Tony and Amaral's hard work in the case would be the breakthrough to open things up.

Hope springs eternal, and I won't give up on this happening so Madeleine will finally have her JUSTICE.


XOX

april4sky
01-29-2009, 10:05 PM
Isn't that strange how that happens. Er! no I don't think so. :rolleyes: (I wouldn't goes as far as referring to them as "a hate forum or a hate blog") I'm sure you wouldn't colomom. and I could not easily put my hands on another source.Well not on a hate site. :) Besides, so what...Kate's fingerprint "may" have been found on the shutter And this from someone who proclaimes by her name that she is "Seeker of the Truth" Sorry colomom but I think you "may" have lost your way a loooong time ago While some might consider it more appropriate to phrase the caption like this: "Close-up of the only fingerprint found, which was allegedly Kate McCann's"Allegedly by whom? But even that would have been more in keeping with someone who was seeking the truth. :)
I seriously doubt if my posting on an insignificant (to the McCanns) forum will be the end of them. They probably could care less. I know I would have much more important things on my mind. Like what people were saying in my own country.Mmmmm. But then it's not you who's on the receiving end of false information/accusations.

So it is a good thing that my posts are all signed: All of my posts are simply, my opinion. I just want to make sure there is no misunderstanding. Well it's certainly handy but has nothing to do with false claims as they are not opinions. :)
And finally, I would hope that no one would make any kind of final judgements about anybody involved in this case based on a forum post. One would hope that people would take the time to read as much as they could get their hands on and then decide for themselves what they think may have happened. Then they can post their ideas on a forum and people can discuss/dismiss/agree/disagree.... :clap:I would hope that too colomom, but we both know that life isn't like that....you only have to read back a few posts to know that. :)

And if you don't believe me that posting or printing their theories/opinions without making it very clear that's all they are, you could "if you choose to of course" check this out.

As posted on the.....
http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/talk-about-anything/44100-tony-bennett-mccanns-856.html
Post 8557.

This is part of a letter that Tony Bennett says he received from someone after reading his Er! “pamphlet”

*****
“I have an eBay site where I carried a Maddie McCann missing poster since week one, as I have worldwide customers. I have now removed it”

*****

If this is a genuine letter he received as a result of his “pamphlet” of “theories” it proves that the search for Madeleine has been damaged.

He doesn’t seem fazed that Madeleines poster has been removed because of his “pamphlet”….in fact he seems eager to share the news.
Unbelievable that this particular point doesn’t even seem to have registered with him…


“Madeleine”…….


......It should be all about finding her….No matter what happened…..
How sad/sick that it’s come to this!!!

For the record I am not a member of the forum…though Tony Bennett is.
It’s not a Madeleine site but a Political forum….And not normally my cup of tea.
Google led me there and this particular thread is the only one discussing Madeleine’s case.....It seems to have started after a poster asked a question...But boy has it caught fire!! Over 900 pages to date!
And very, very, enlightening so far.

scandi
01-29-2009, 10:41 PM
I'm not thinking any of the posters put out to find Madeleine would have ever done the job. I think it is very telling they used photos that were not current, showing a much younger girl to the world than she was. WHY?

Even the tennis ball photo. I have read it most likely was not taken on that Holiday as the lighting is wrong for Portugal at that time of year.

Madeleine from age 2.5 up to 3.5 was one adorable little beauty, especially photogenic. As she approached age 4 she began to change to have more of a 'big girl look'. That wasn't the image the parents wanted to project to the public IMO. They used what they thought best to raise $$'s and create a media love affair with the precious sweetheart she was in her younger years.


All my opinion and giving respect to everyone's ideas on the case ;}

Texana
01-30-2009, 07:54 PM
I'm not thinking any of the posters put out to find Madeleine would have ever done the job. I think it is very telling they used photos that were not current, showing a much younger girl to the world than she was. WHY?

Even the tennis ball photo. I have read it most likely was not taken on that Holiday as the lighting is wrong for Portugal at that time of year.

Madeleine from age 2.5 up to 3.5 was one adorable little beauty, especially photogenic. As she approached age 4 she began to change to have more of a 'big girl look'. That wasn't the image the parents wanted to project to the public IMO. They used what they thought best to raise $$'s and create a media love affair with the precious sweetheart she was in her younger years.


All my opinion and giving respect to everyone's ideas on the case ;}


Interesting point and I think well worth considering.

Especially if they didn't actually need to find Madeleine because they knew where she was--

Again--Maddie's height and weight were never released. Never. Look at any missing child photo and see if that information is left out.

Barnaby
01-30-2009, 08:31 PM
Madeleine was small for her age, this fact was never ever stressed!
The McCann's witheld information that might have helped find the child yet splashed information that they were told could have her killed - The coloboma!
They only complied with the advice that was convenient for them - don't show emotion!

colomom
01-30-2009, 09:50 PM
Look what I found....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Maddie5YO.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/v/0aT_5WCX6G4 (http://www.youtube.com/v/0aT_5WCX6G4)

april4sky
01-30-2009, 10:24 PM
Interesting point and I think well worth considering.

Especially "if" they didn't actually need to find Madeleine because they knew where she was--

Again--Maddie's height and weight were never released. Never. Look at any missing child photo and see if that information is left out. "If" is a small word with a "big" meaning....which doesn't include "fact".

Texana there are quite a few things worth considering including this post I read recently by someone who said they had seen the contents of the DVD......

...."False claims being deliberately put out to manipulate peoples opinions…….Kate never stated that she had been with 6 corpses before travelling to Portugal……nor did she ever state that she took cuddlecat to work with her."
****
Now I haven't seen confirmation of this myself but I think colomom said she has a copy of the DVD! maybe she can confirm for us if these "claims" are true or not. :waitasec:
But if Kate didn't make these statements.....Geeez! didn't the "Anti-McCanns have a field day...or rather months with "lies."
........
And now we also know......
Found in 5a.

"Strangers DNA :waitasec: Strangers fingerprints! :waitasec:

Yet some still insist that there is no "evidence" of an abductor."......

Who's to say none of these belong to an Abductor. :waitasec:

scandi
01-31-2009, 01:28 AM
Look what I found....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Maddie5YO.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/v/0aT_5WCX6G4 (http://www.youtube.com/v/0aT_5WCX6G4)


Hi Barney <<Wavy Guy>>

Colomom, That is amazing! I haven't gone to the site yet, but wonder if it is from a sighting or if it is an age enhancement. xox

colomom
02-02-2009, 09:21 AM
google translation:

Metodo 3 under investigation in a case of embezzlement and money laundering

Metodo 3, the Catalan detective agency hired by Kate and Gerry McCann to find their daughter Madeleine, is quoted today in a large-scale investigation launched by the Spanish authorities about a half-dozen ministries of the Generalitat of Catalonia.

According to a note by the office of the prosecutor, the Catalan government, in recent years, would have ordered and paid a significant number of reports that seem to have no goal or interest, citing, for example, "the socio economic farm hazelnuts, "ordered the detective agency Metodo 3 for the modest sum of 30,000 euros.

According to the office of prosecutor in charge of the investigation, it would be before a case of embezzlement and money laundering.

The investigation of the Spanish authorities made following reports of the collective "clean hands" and is a case of embezzlement and money laundering, as confirmed by the office of the prosecutor.

Metodo 3: Maddie here after searching for nuts

It is the advisor for Agriculture, the Socialist Joaquim Llena, which commissioned Francisco Marco - the director of Metodo 3 - a "socio-economic survey of farms hazelnuts, paid 30,000 euros.

According to a spokesman for the office of the prosecutor, "nothing but the name of the agency related to such an investigation, forcing investigators to wonder about the real purpose under the command of the adviser."

According to a source close to the investigation, the report by Metodo 3 about the region of Tarragona, the region that produces the most nuts in Spain, had been copied word by word from the internet. Information also confirmed by "El Confidencial" which states that Metodo 3 had copied word by word to a report published earlier by the official newspaper of the region on its website.

Metodo 3, Spain, has already been linked to other scandals linked to political and financial world, and recently has also been called into question by his work in investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann or close associates of Francisco Marco, Antonio Jimenez, was charged with driving several British journalists to meet with witnesses previously paid to say he saw the small British in Morocco. The personnel of Metodo 3, responsible for investigating Maddie was, thereafter, arrested in a case of theft and trafficking in cocaine.

According to sources related to the own Metodo 3, several detectives in his department have questioned the capacity of Francisco Marco in the Madeleine McCann investigation, accusing him of destroying the credibility of the agency, especially after being practice a communications disaster.

According to the Office of the Prosecutor, embezzlement and money laundering can relate to are "huge" public money.

By Duarte Levy & A. Finkelstein
http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/archive/2009/02/02/metodo-3-sous-enquete-dans-une-affaire-de-detournement-de-fo.html

Barnaby
02-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Hi Barney <<Wavy Guy>>

Colomom, That is amazing! I haven't gone to the site yet, but wonder if it is from a sighting or if it is an age enhancement. xox

Hi Scandi :blowkiss: I would love to know where this came from also!

Texana
02-02-2009, 11:03 PM
Hi Barney <<Wavy Guy>>

Colomom, That is amazing! I haven't gone to the site yet, but wonder if it is from a sighting or if it is an age enhancement. xox

No, I don't think this is a five year old Maddie. The eyes are not right, and the change due to age is not quite right.

Salem
02-02-2009, 11:44 PM
I went to the site - I think this girl is the daughter of the guy making the videos. She is in several of the videos. While I do think the girl looks like Maddie, I agree with Texana - it is NOT Maddie. The eyes are different and so is the bone structure.

But.... it was close enough to motivate me to review several of the videos, some of which are just weird.....

Salem

scandi
02-03-2009, 11:37 PM
I went to the site - I think this girl is the daughter of the guy making the videos. She is in several of the videos. While I do think the girl looks like Maddie, I agree with Texana - it is NOT Maddie. The eyes are different and so is the bone structure.

But.... it was close enough to motivate me to review several of the videos, some of which are just weird.....

Salem


ITA with you and Texana. After all we know it couldn't be Madeleine as Eddie let us know she died in Apt5A.

I had to take another look-see as well. I wonder if this person knows the McCann's or is in some way connected to them thru someone else, like almost every other sighting has been :eek:

colomom
02-04-2009, 09:00 AM
Hello Scandi, Salem and Tex....

I don't think this would qualify as a bona fide sighting. I found this video embedded on Brian's Dreams site, here: http://www.****************.com/MISSING/private/5441page33.htm waaaay at the bottom, dated 1/4/09. The person who posted it made reference to her being an abused child. There is reference to this YouTube account: http://www.youtube.com/user/rose2812?gl=DE&hl=de which is completely creepy to me....not sure why.

Anyway, it seems to be a homemade video. I was amazed by the similarity of the shape of her mouth and nose but, I agree, the eyes are not right. And as Scandi said....
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/dogsdontlieqa2-1.jpg

Salem
02-04-2009, 01:27 PM
Colomom - I looked at several of the videos, apparently by the same person and I agree 100% - very creepy. I also agree that I can't explain why I thought it was creepy, but it left me with a feeling of yuck...... Especially the one titled "Could this have happened to Madeleine?" Very weird - I didn't watch the whole thing. I can't understand how someone would think to create such an ugly video?

Maybe the videos should be brought to someone's attention? Like someone in LE?

Salem

colomom
02-06-2009, 02:30 PM
06 February 2009

Maddie and Joana Again? Amongst the Bad Parenthood, the Hazelnuts Liars and the alleged Dog’s Injustice

The second half of January was, as I expected, very interesting.

The Maddie case came back in full force! The Joana case was interrupted by a rocambolesque and, I believe, unprecedented legal event. The Metódo3 showed its teeth. And the Freeport distracted us.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/PauloSargentodosSantos2.jpg
by Dr.Paulo Sargento

The last time I wrote, I recall that Dr Gerry McCann had returned to Portugal for the first time since September 2007, allegedly for, together with one of his attorneys, the illustrious Mr. Rogério Alves, have a reunion with His Excellency the British Ambassador in Lisbon [Alexander Ellis], to know what could still be done to find Madeleine.

The trip indeed happened! Mr. Rogério Alves was, as everyone could see, with Dr Gerry McCann, and to what is known, they met with the Ambassador.

Well, it happened! So why to repeat myself?

As I had previously said and now I reaffirm it: the argument used by Dr Gerry McCann is illogical. By his own words, he assumed he had not still read the whole process (which includes ALL the diligences made), because the process had not yet been fully translated. I repeat the question that intrigues me: How can you want to know what you can still do about anything when it is not known, entirely, all that was done? It makes no sense whatsoever! I reiterate that this escapes any logic.

Now then, what was the purpose of Dr Gerry McCann’s visit? Without anyone asking, it was guaranteed that he did not come to meet with anyone from the government or anyone connected to the government. But, what government? The current one? Well, here is something that can not escape the logic. Nor, contrary to the previous statement, we can affirm (without a pejorative assessment of the awareness of the statement) that it is a lie.

It even makes sense that Dr Gerry McCann has not come to meet with people connected to the ACTUAL government (and I swear that I am not using rhetorical imagery to induce the reading into the Freeport case). However, nothing was said, and in truth, nothing was asked regarding meetings with elements of previous governments or related to them.

Right! Nice trick! In some corridors, with hushed loudness, it has been made possible to pin point someone to the fourth chair of the said meeting: the first name, truly Lusitanian and the surname, clearly Gaul [Gaulês]! And I stop right here.

Do you know why?

Because, from this time on, not even Mendes Bota was able to save the honour of the monastery: the Man who, according with all the polls, would guaranteedly win a City Council was rejected by the Directorate of the Party of which he is an active militant, allegedly for not corresponding to the appropriate profile for that Town Hall (well, at least, from the mouth of the censors, pardon, of the decision makers, did not came a even more ludicrous story, the lack of political experience). Of course I am talking about Gonçalo Amaral.

Besides of cowardly, of shameful and, obviously, manipulated, this act of refusing Gonçalo Amaral candidacy, is the most naive expectation of a ‘currency exchange’ that I have seen in Portuguese politics (besides I only have 43 years old and there are political alliances that are secular).

Meanwhile, in the Joana case, after the confession, pre-announced by the Illustrious lawyer of Madam Leonor Cipriano (I recall the interview with Dr. Marcos Aragão Correia, in the weekly "The Crime" of December 4, 2008), our courts performed one of the strangest scenes unprecedented in the Portuguese memory: the expulsion of a lawyer from the Court chambers for being suspended by the Bar Association, allegedly because of the failure to communicate his change of address.

This event made a flow, desirably for some, of more ink lines in multiple newspapers. Relatively to this, we yet have to understand what really happened, However, the confession of Leonor Cipriano, that Dr. Marcos Aragão Correia referred to have be written by is own hand, but dictated by the lady is, as I had a chance to say, another point in detriment of Leonor Cipriano herself: it’s another one among nearly a dozen versions, all different.

What can we conclude here? Two things. The first is that Leonor has lost more of her, already diminutive and very doubtful, credibility of testimony. Secondly, calculating the highest common denominator of the various versions, we find a high consistency of one element in the different versions: Joana, who unfortunately, died, or rather was killed, as most of the forensic evidence indicates.

The letter, in addition to have been written by Mr. Marcos Aragão Correia, was not dictated by a person born in the Algarve area, with a very low level of education. Somehow the statement denotes a kind of legal concern, to the level of its content (namely, the legal possibility of the adoption as it is referred and the insistency on details that could, potentially, constitute evidence for the accusation - pants with blood). But as I reiterate, the excessive use of the gerund [verbal noun] and the reversal of possessives and demonstratives add up to an aspect of linguistic expression more usual in Madeira, or with some effort, in some parts of the Alentejo. Who dictated the letter? A person from Madeira? Or, being in Odemira, a person from Alentejo?

Still in the Joana case, following the aforementioned "confession" a new search was encouraged to the place where, allegedly, the body of Joana was buried. But, after several searches, conducted by the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano and family (which family?) it was assumed the impossibility to continue this task due to the deficiency of cinotechnical means [K9 units]. Indeed, this argument deserves some reflection.

Dr. Marcos Aragão Correia says, like many others, that in Portugal there are no dogs trained to detect the cadaverine scent. Nevertheless, some people said the opposite, some time ago. It is, therefore, a debatable issue. But, then, why was a search and rescue dog taken? Here, for sure the theory that those who “don’t have dogs hunts with a cat” is unfounded. So, I repeat, why would there be a need for an ERVD dog that detects the scent of cadavers?

Although I accept that I am completely uninformed regarding the major aspects of the qualities of those animals, I must, however, present some speculative arguments that have emerged in the consequence of the proclaimed affirmation made by Dr. Aragão Correia: “In the Maddie case a dog was brought from England to search for evidences against the parents. Why they don't do it now to find Joana's body?”

Let’s try to reflect upon it.

I would not be surprised and even would agree, absolutely, with Dr. Aragão Correia if the argument of Equalitarian Justice that he pretended to use wasn’t betrayed by its content. Let us see what I want to say, illustrating how I think that the argument should be exposed:

a) “In the Maddie case a dog was brought from England to search for evidences against the parents. Why they don’t do it now to try to get evidences against the mother and uncle of Joana?”, or alternatively,

b) “In the Maddie case a dog was brought from England to try to locate her body. Why they don't do it now to find Joana's body?”

Indeed, if the issues were raised in this way, I would be in complete agreement with the thesis of Dr. Aragão Correia.

Still, we would have, in my modest and, again I repeat, little sustained opinion, a methodological problem: in the case of Maddie, we had precise locations and objects which allowed to draw a methodology that is virtually beyond reproach as to the results observed (the dogs visited several apartments, several cars, smelled different pieces of clothing, BUT, I repeat, BUT there were control and “placebo” devices, if I am allowed to exploit these terms, so it is easier to understand).

In the Joana case, in addition to the search area being much larger and that there are no types of markers, the search should, in my opinion, begin with archaeologists and geologists who would attempt to define areas where signs of intervention not due to natural phenomena existed (ex. erosion of wind or rain in the modification of topographical accidents) and from then on proceed to search with other methods.

I admit that is much more difficult to detect the smell of dead bodies after almost 4 years, than after 2 months. I also admit that it would be much more difficult the discrimination of odours in outdoor areas than inside houses or in clothes dressed recently. I should, therefore conclude the arrival of the friendly and competent dogs (who have 200 positive identifications), in these conditions could constitute a failure.

Actually, allow me one more metaphor: the conditions described for the “monte das figueras”[figs hill] (which, in itself, involves a number of variables, of difficult, or even, virtual impossible control) and after almost 4 years are have gone by since the tragic death of a girl, the probability of the dogs (even though they are competent) to find the corpse of Joana is, certainly lower the likelihood that someone would have to win the Euromillions in 3 consecutive weeks, betting on the same combination key numbers.

However, to whom would help the failure of these dogs?

Exactly! You guessed it! To the defenders of Madeleine McCann abduction theory. Thus, one of the strongest evidences of the death of little Maddie would be attacked and the headlines would be as expected: Dogs who identified cadaver scent in the Maddie case didn’t detect any clues of Joana’s corpse. I admit that the confession of Leonor would likewise not be in ‘good sheets’. But I do not know why, I think that the media, would basically, belittle the image of the friendly dogs, and consequently of the sardines munchers.

Another issue which has come to light, and about which I have spoken [on TVI], concerns the recent news regarding the involvement of Método3 in the subject that I will only designate as Hazelnuts Traitors. This Agency has shown that it has within people who are: LIARS, SWINDLERS and SKILLFUL COINCIDENCE MANAGERS.

For these not to be just empty words, I begin to explain:

a) LIARS! They promised that Maddie would appear by the Christmas of 2007 – IT’S A LIE! They even guaranteed to have identified the kidnapper of Maddie - IT’S A LIE! (If it is true then report it to the authorities, to not be accountable of any crime in that regard, and I’ll give at that time, publicly and humbly my apologies for having said this sentence, but I’ll keep the previous)!

b) SWINDLERS! They take advantage of the work of others. The Hazelnuts had already owners. Copying sites is shameful. Exploiting the work of others is disgraceful.

c) SKILLFUL COINCIDENCE MANAGERS! They stated that while working in the Maddie case, 13 paedophiles have been arrested. Don’t make the Spanish Police a bunch of fools. Have some sense gentlemen.

Let me say that institutions should not be confused with some people who belong to it. Of course, everywhere, there is good and bad. If I am being unfair to the agency Método3, I will apologize publicly after the agency brings to an end its connexion with the acts committed by some of its elements.

To the McCann Couple, I would like to start, exactly, here.

For how long do you intend to keep the link to the agency's Metódo3 in the Find Madeline site? Even after all the information regarding the said agency, it still keeps a privileged spot in the “Investigation” tab at the site where many people still want to help and contribute? For how long?

And the online store? Is to maintain, even losing a real fortune, as we were able to see, in the accounts of the Madeleine Fund? Who manufactures the T-Shirts? And the bracelets?

If it is true that you have no accounts or credit cards on your behalf, how do pay for your travels? And the expenses at the Ocean Club? How do you live without financial liaisons with any bank? And the mortgage of your home?

And the price of the site? In Portugal, a site maintenance costs 50€ per year. When we have no money, we draw our own pages or we ask some solidarity to friends who are competent in that area. To spend a thousand times more is unwise. I am sure that there are thousands of web designers that would help you for free. There are caring people in this world, if they believe that it is for a good cause.

The translations of the process should not be the PRIORITY to be able to know what was done, Dr Gerry McCann? There is STILL enough money in the fund. Please translate the process. It is urgent. It is imperative!

Dr. Kate McCann, we all understand your suffering. I do not want to believe that the idea that you are depressed and obsessively reading for 3 hours a day the process, is an idea of your own. I believe that this is a story of the evil tabloids. Please, sue them because they are giving of you an awful motherly image. A mother of a daughter who has disappeared and who does not rest for more than three hours a day, spending the remaining 19 hours reading. Yes, it could be assumed as worrying and it would translate an emotional disturbance in which the person is, in fact, obsessed and not thinking in anything else, not even in the other children.

And speaking about, the other children.

In the first days after the disappearance of Maddie, where some people weaved considerations to the poor parental quality of the McCanns, I tried to devalue that idea on several occasions, interpreting benignly the various and more carefree parental educational practices of the Anglo-Saxons.

I even conveyed and, today I acknowledge that, stupidly, in the defense of the couple, saying that a culture of greater autonomy and its relationship with the educational development in some countries were in part, the result of parenting practices which promote more autonomy and are less over-protective, saying that the super-protection and affiliation were more common in southern Europe, in particular, and in the Latin people in general.

When I recognize the stupidity of what I said, I must confess that is not in relation of what I said. I stand by it! The stupidity was not to have thought that the educational practices that the McCann demonstrated were predictors of one of the biggest wickedness that I have witnessed against children: to give gifts to the twins, saying that those were sent by Maddie.

Mr and Mrs McCann:

Do not make of Maddie a Santa Claus who gives gifts to the children and that never, I repeat, NEVER, appears or will appear.

Let the twins do the mourning of their sister. You both know she will not appear.

Even if you believe that you had no intervention in the disappearance of your daughter (which I do not believe and I have that right as a citizen), you have been warned that the excessive media attention would increased the likelihood, in the hypothetical case of abduction, that the putative kidnapper would kill the girl. If you do not want to face the grief of Maddie, you have that right and you have your reasons.. But please, let the twins do it.

The girl, unfortunately, will not return. Do not give hope to the little ones because they will not remember her sister. They will not have a memory of Maddie, unless through the pictures and for what is told to them, and unfortunately, for what they will know and understand when they grow up. Do not build false memories through deceiving illusions. Tell the twins that Maddie is a little star [in the sky]. They will know what that means. Until then, do not let any pact to use the twins as a means.

These children live in a strange ambience. “Where is the Maddie? Will she be back? And if we are taken to that place?” Children do not think like us. They believe they are stolen by the boogeyman. And what if one has gone already?

Mr and Mrs McCann

I have never made any criticisms to your parental qualities.

However, given what you did with the twins I have to firmly say:

You are BAD PARENTS!

Get some counselling!

See you soon!

Courtesy of Dr. Paulo Sargento

By Joana Morais (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/)

Texana
02-06-2009, 08:27 PM
Dr. Sargento's comments at the end of Colomom's post ("You are bad parents!") echoes a family event we had. My younger daughter, at the age of 4, was pushed down from one level of a tree house to the next (plywood floor) by a cousin. She had a massive, horrible, swelling bruise on her temple, but fortunately, as x-rays showed, no serious harm.

Another cousin about age 7 or 8, was asked by the parents of the offending cousin, if he had anything he wanted to tell them.

He looked at them very seriously and said, "Your son is a Bad Boy."

(Side note: We only heard this full story this year. The Bad Boy Cousin's parents, who knew their son was responsible for our DD's injury, did not offer ro pay for or help with the medical expenses. They ran and took cover.)

Bad parents are bad parents, period.

Texana
02-06-2009, 08:33 PM
"If" is a small word with a "big" meaning....which doesn't include "fact".

]

Okay, so bottom line:

Did the McCanns or anyone else ever release Madeleine's height and weight as part of the "missing" publicity?

This has a yes or no answer. It's a fact. Either they did, or they didn't.

I'm not interested in hearing what they were told to do, what you agreed with, or what the Portuguese police should have done.

Did they, or did they not?

The McCanns would have easily had access to that specific data, based on Madeleine's last physical check up. As conscientious as Kate was about giving the children healthy food, I know she also took them to regular checkups and vaccination appointments.

Yes, or No. Easy answer.

april4sky
02-07-2009, 03:25 AM
Okay, so bottom line:

Did the McCanns or anyone else ever release Madeleine's height and weight as part of the "missing" publicity?

This has a yes or no answer. It's a fact. Either they did, or they didn't.

I'm not interested in hearing what they were told to do, what you agreed with, or what the Portuguese police should have done.

Did they, or did they not?

The McCanns would have easily had access to that specific data, based on Madeleine's last physical check up. As conscientious as Kate was about giving the children healthy food, I know she also took them to regular checkups and vaccination appointments.

Yes, or No. Easy answer.The PJ are the one's you should be critisizing for "not" putting out Madeleine's description Texana. :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:.
The UK and US would certainly have done so!

But no it was left to the McCanns themselves...the parents of a missing child!!...to get Madeleine's photo and description they thought important out there.

Did the PJ even bother to find out Madeleine's height and weight? If so have they ever publicized it?.....They are supposed to be the professionals after all, :rolleyes: "not" the McCanns!

I have no idea whether Madeleine's height and weight has ever been reported. Have you?

"Interesting" Texana that you only took exception to the "If" part of my post, (I think the highlight in your post explains why) but you chose to ignore the following.

"Texana there are quite a few things worth considering including this post I read recently by someone who said they had seen the contents of the DVD......

...."False claims being deliberately put out to manipulate peoples opinions…….Kate never stated that she had been with 6 corpses before travelling to Portugal……nor did she ever state that she took cuddlecat to work with her."
****
Now I haven't seen confirmation of this myself but I think colomom said she has a copy of the DVD! maybe she can confirm for us if these "claims" are true or not. :waitasec:
But if Kate didn't make these statements.....Geeez! didn't the "Anti-McCanns have a field day...or rather months with "lies."
........
And now we also know......
Found in 5a.

"Strangers DNA :waitasec: Strangers fingerprints! :waitasec:

Yet some still insist that there is no "evidence" of an abductor."......

Who's to say none of these belong to an Abductor." :waitasec:
******

As I said "Interesting"

april4sky
02-07-2009, 08:24 AM
06 February 2009

Joana Cipriano.

Joana, who unfortunately, died, or rather was killed, as most of the forensic evidence indicates.

Courtesy of Dr. Paulo Sargento

The above statement by Paulo Sargento tells us everything about his "honesty," as in "lack of." :rolleyes:

He was a "witness" in the Joana Cipriano case.
What a coincidence that he has a connection to Goncalo Amaral. :waitasec:

He also knows better than we do that there was "no" forensic evidence to confirm Joana Cipriano is dead.

It's strange how Goncalo Amarals cases end up accusing the parents even though he fails to find "any" trace of their childrens "bodies."

Joana Cipriano....No Dead Body!!...No DNA!!
Not even where the PJ claim the childs body was cut up. :waitasec:

I have no idea as to the guilt of Leonor Cipriano but there are definate red flags regarding Goncalo Amaral and his way of running an investigation. IMO

Texana
02-07-2009, 11:10 PM
April, it's hard for me to read your posts with all the different colors and new paragraphs with incomplete sentences. I picked one thing to respond to because frankly, the rest was confusing.

If the McCanns had wanted the world to know what Maddie's height and weight were, they could have made those facts public on their website.

I do think it's odd that you label anyone who disagrees with the abduction theory as Anti-McCann. Perhaps we are just Pro-Madeleine.

Barnaby
02-07-2009, 11:48 PM
April, it's hard for me to read your posts with all the different colors and new paragraphs with incomplete sentences. I picked one thing to respond to because frankly, the rest was confusing.

If the McCanns had wanted the world to know what Maddie's height and weight were, they could have made those facts public on their website.

I do think it's odd that you label anyone who disagrees with the abduction theory as Anti-McCann. Perhaps we are just Pro-Madeleine.

So right Texana, they did enough PR, hair groomed, make up on, matching accessories, website set up bank details for donations included, Press releases, conferences, balloon releases, not a tear in sght, blogging about jogging, details about coloboma despite warnings that this could be Madeleine's death sentence! One would presume that a trivial detail, LOL, like her height might have been included, that is of course if they really wanted to find her or thought that she could be found!

Texana
02-08-2009, 12:41 AM
So right Texana, they did enough PR, hair groomed, make up on, matching accessories, website set up bank details for donations included, Press releases, conferences, balloon releases, not a tear in sght, blogging about jogging, details about coloboma despite warnings that this could be Madeleine's death sentence! One would presume that a trivial detail, LOL, like her height might have been included, that is of course if they really wanted to find her or thought that she could be found!

Exactly.

april4sky
02-08-2009, 02:27 AM
April, it's hard for me to read your posts with all the different colors and new paragraphs with incomplete sentences. I picked one thing to respond to because frankly, the rest was confusing.

If the McCanns had wanted the world to know what Maddie's height and weight were, they could have made those facts public on their website.

I do think it's odd that you label anyone who disagrees with the abduction theory as Anti-McCann. Perhaps we are just Pro-Madeleine.
My post was clear enough Texana. :)

I think perhaps you didn't like the content. :rolleyes: I notice you don't have any trouble with the parts that do interest you.....Like Anti-McCann. :rolleyes:

And perhaps I have trouble thinking of some as Pro-Madeleine when I see the damage done to the search for her by unfair and untrue accusations against her parents....especially as there is no, and never has been "evidence" to support those accusations by people who "think" they know better.
So no Texana, sorry but I can't think of anyone choosing to do that as Pro-Madeleine.....because I can think of nothing less helpful to her. :mad:

If Madeleine is found it will be because of her families efforts and those who support those efforts.....Certainly not the PJ's.

Here again is just part of my post about accusations against Kate that you apparently didn't "understand" :rolleyes: .....

"Kate never stated that she had been with 6 corpses before travelling to Portugal……nor did she ever state that she took cuddlecat to work with her."

Texana you didn't choose to ignore these particular accusations when they were originally made.
Which is why I'm not surprised that you haven't commented on them now. :rolleyes:

scandi
02-08-2009, 04:51 AM
My post was clear enough Texana. :)

I think perhaps you didn't like the content. :rolleyes: I notice you don't have any trouble with the parts that do interest you.....Like Anti-McCann :rolleyes:

And perhaps I have trouble thinking of some as Pro-Madeleine when I see the damage done to the search for her by unfair and untrue accusations against her parents....especially as there is no, and never has been "evidence" to support those accusations by people who "think" they know better.
So no Texana, sorry but I don't think of anyone choosing to do that as Pro-Madeleine.....because I can think of nothing less helpful to her. :mad:

If Madeleine is found it will be because of her families efforts and those who support those efforts.....Certainly not the PJ's.

Here again is just part of my post about the accusations against Kate that you chose not to see :waitasec: or apparently "understand":waitasec: ....

"Kate never stated that she had been with 6 corpses before travelling to Portugal……nor did she ever state that she took cuddlecat to work with her."

Texana you didn't choose to ignore these accusations when they were originally made.
I wonder why? :rolleyes:


Hi April, Be nice ;} That is one thing I notice, that everyone else is. I don't think I have met a 'pro' that doesn't have a little chip on their shoulder about Madeleine's parents, to the distraction in Sleuthing the case it takes respect for Madeleine and getting Justice for her #2. Saving the parents from the steely eye of the law seems to be #1. I even know one poster who became intolerable to post with as she had once talked to Gerry on the phone and talked to Philomena daily.

IMO after over a year and a half, this Youtube by Spudgun still says everything when you look at the basics of the case. That one thought at the end always grabs me so hard, that of anyone in the whole wide world that should have cared about and protected her the most, they didn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q Thank you Spudgun xox

The corpses and taking CC to work with her we learned about right after they were made Arguidos. Kate did a couple of interviews, and so if it is not in the Portuguese press it is on video where she said these things. It could be a relative, her mother, spoke on Kate's behalf about this.

About Joana's case, the word is {from a poster affiliated with the GNR when Joana went missing} is that her blood was found in the family fridge and she was cut up in pieces and fed to the pigs. Joana Morais has quite a bit of info on that case, and I'll read it again in the next day or two. Heck, there is a confession for her death and 2 citizens were found guilty and serving time for her murder. You don't think she died? I'm just trying to see what you are saying April.

april4sky
02-08-2009, 07:31 AM
Hi April, Be nice ;} That is one thing I notice, that everyone else is. I don't think I have met a 'pro' that doesn't have a little chip on their shoulder about Madeleine's parents, to the distraction in Sleuthing the case it takes respect for Madeleine and getting Justice for her #2. Saving the parents from the steely eye of the law seems to be #1. I even know one poster who became intolerable to post with as she had once talked to Gerry on the phone and talked to Philomena daily.

IMO after over a year and a half, this Youtube by Spudgun still says everything when you look at the basics of the case. That one thought at the end always grabs me so hard, that of anyone in the whole wide world that should have cared about and protected her the most, they didn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q Thank you Spudgun xox

The corpses and taking CC to work with her we learned about right after they were made Arguidos. Kate did a couple of interviews, and so if it is not in the Portuguese press it is on video where she said these things. It could be a relative, her mother, spoke on Kate's behalf about this.

About Joana's case, the word is {from a poster affiliated with the GNR when Joana went missing} is that her blood was found in the family fridge and she was cut up in pieces and fed to the pigs. Joana Morais has quite a bit of info on that case, and I'll read it again in the next day or two. Heck, there is a confession for her death and 2 citizens were found guilty and serving time for her murder. You don't think she died? I'm just trying to see what you are saying April.Hi Scandi, :hand:
Haven't you noticed who is nice to who, and why? :)

You may call accusing the parents of a missing child, especially when there is no "evidence" that they harmed her, sleuthing...but I don't.

Scandi I just watched the video...just to please you. :)
But sorry IMO it is nothing but cruel propaganda.
It's also out of date as Gerry McCann has been back to Portugal...
And the nasty claims that the McCanns haven't searched....when in fact they and their supporters are the only ones working to find Madeleine.
Who else do you think is searching?

I haven't met or spoken to either of the McCanns, I just don't buy into propaganda, lies and smears.

There were lots of smears and lies in the press and on hate sites but with the release of the DVD we are learning which were lies.
If you can confirm that "Kate" and I mean Kate! not a source, family member or friend, the press like to quote when they make things up, ever made such statements about her jeans or cuddlecat, then please do it.

As for the Joana Cipriano case. As I said I have no idea if her mother is guilty of killing her, or even if she is dead.

It's true that no trace of her body has ever been found and though Goncalo Amaral claims that Joana's body was cut up in the kitchen and stored in the freezer (Goncalo does seem to have a thing about bodies being hidden in freezers...but no proof!:waitasec:) he was unable to find any trace of her or her DNA.
Yes there was a confession but there are questions now about how that confession was obtained.
There is an ongoing trial with Goncalo Amaral and a number of PJ who are accused of beating her to get that confession.

The PJ don't deny that they were with Leanor when she received her injuries...they just claim she threw herself down the stairs.
http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/1foxfire/Cipriano2MOS1509_468x648.jpg Leonor Cipriano
Both accused found guilty in Joana's case apparently confessed.
Now even if those confessions were beaten out of them...Or not!...WHY didn't they confess where they hid Joana's body....Mmmm could it be because you can't tell what you don't know!!
Remember no DNA found even though she was supposedly cut up....In the kitchen.

I'm not certain if it's true but I read recently that in Portugal if you have a confession you don't need to present any further evidence....Now how convenient would that be.
That would never be allowed in this day and age in most countries.

I hope Joana's case gets taken before the European court of human rights....because IMO it stinks!!
Whatever the truth I would like to see true justice for Joana.

I will be away for a while so If I don't get back to you Scandi you will know why. :hand:

I think maybe Texana will be pleased. :) And definately Barnaby....As I don't think she likes me. :innocent:

Texana
02-08-2009, 07:17 PM
April, I already told you you should consider it a compliment when I respond to your posts, and yet you say I'll be pleased if you don't post for awhile.

I've never thought disagreeing on issues was a reason to not like someone. There's always common ground somewhere.

You can always come hang out in the jury room and see for yourself how people can talk and get along even when they vehemently disagree on issues or cases.

Have a nice whatever--for where ever you are--

scandi
02-08-2009, 09:35 PM
Hi April,

Thanks for your response. I do agree with Texana that we should all be able to agree to disagree and still have intelligent conversations. For some reason this case more than most has split posters into camps of pro and anti, and that is too bad. I think that happened because the case became daily news in much of the world and emotions started to run high. Since LE around the world always must rule out the parents first, it happened with K & G too and then when they couldn't be ruled out we started to see posters start thinking in circles that revolved around the guilt or innocence of the parents. That's all. Nothing personal about it except everyone wanted Madeleine found in the worst way. Some were very critical about how the parents went about this finding of her.

I'll see if I can find that link about the cadavers and CC.

We see things differently about Amaral too. I think of him as a champion for Madeleine and can only thank him for all the truths he has brought to the forefront in the case.

Oh, and the gal who let contact with Gerry and Philomena go to her head, I never meant she was you. No, she had a way of bein' downright nasty with those who didn't see her point of view, and I have never seen anyone of her ILK in that regard post here. I would know her right away because ofher shoe collection! LOLOL

xox

Barnaby
02-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Hi Scandi, :hand:
Haven't you noticed who is nice to who, and why? :)

You may call accusing the parents of a missing child, especially when there is no "evidence" that they harmed her, sleuthing...but I don't.

Scandi I just watched the video...just to please you. :)
But sorry IMO it is nothing but cruel propaganda.
It's also out of date as Gerry McCann has been back to Portugal...
And the nasty claims that the McCanns haven't searched....when in fact they and their supporters are the only ones working to find Madeleine.
Who else do you think is searching?

I haven't met or spoken to either of the McCanns, I just don't buy into propaganda, lies and smears.

There were lots of smears and lies in the press and on hate sites but with the release of the DVD we are learning which were lies.
If you can confirm that "Kate" and I mean Kate! not a source, family member or friend, the press like to quote when they make things up, ever made such statements about her jeans or cuddlecat, then please do it.

As for the Joana Cipriano case. As I said I have no idea if her mother is guilty of killing her, or even if she is dead.

It's true that no trace of her body has ever been found and though Goncalo Amaral claims that Joana's body was cut up in the kitchen and stored in the freezer (Goncalo does seem to have a thing about bodies being hidden in freezers...but no proof!:waitasec:) he was unable to find any trace of her or her DNA.
Yes there was a confession but there are questions now about how that confession was obtained.
There is an ongoing trial with Goncalo Amaral and a number of PJ who are accused of beating her to get that confession.

The PJ don't deny that they were with Leanor when she received her injuries...they just claim she threw herself down the stairs.
http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/1foxfire/Cipriano2MOS1509_468x648.jpg Leonor Cipriano
Both accused found guilty in Joana's case apparently confessed.
Now even if those confessions were beaten out of them...Or not!...WHY didn't they confess where they hid Joana's body....Mmmm could it be because you can't tell what you don't know!!
Remember no DNA found even though she was supposedly cut up....In the kitchen.

I'm not certain if it's true but I read recently that in Portugal if you have a confession you don't need to present any further evidence....Now how convenient would that be.
That would never be allowed in this day and age in most countries.

I hope Joana's case gets taken before the European court of human rights....because IMO it stinks!!
Whatever the truth I would like to see true justice for Joana.

I will be away for a while so If I don't get back to you Scandi you will know why. :hand:

I think maybe Texana will be pleased. :) And definately Barnaby....As I don't think she likes me. :innocent:

April, I do not know you personally & therefore I neither like nor dislike you as a person! We have differed on occasions & I have become agitated with your attitude towards members who do not agree with you & therefore rather than become annoyed & cause drama on the boards, I chose not to reply to your posts, that is not an indication of dislike just what I consider to be prudent & respectful behaviour on a chat room which is graciously provided for me & others to enjoy!

Regarding your comment above about searching, I am sorry but setting up websites & engaging fifth rate shady investigators after the fact just doesn't cut it for me!
If the child genuinely went missing there was a distinct possibilty that she woke up, got out of the apartment & wandered off! Please tell me what parent in their right mind would not have been walking the streets in the hope of finding the child? Remember that this is a real possibility & the McCanns, Kate in particular, did not physically search that night, can you explain that to me? I sure have difficulty in understanding it!

scandi
02-10-2009, 06:26 PM
Hi, I just watched Nancy Grace and heard about the 2 hour Memorial service today for little Caylee Anthony.

They all said it was a beautiful and dignified service that gave everyone a special glimpse of Caylee thru the eyes of her family who spoke and then thru new video of her as we hadn't seen before. People drove from Michigan and Kentucky to attend. A long drive away for them. Some arrived at 4am. It was touching.

It made me sit back from my 'puter and say to myself, 'Why didn't they ever do this for Madeleine?'

The public does get involved with cases like this and need closure too, as a psychologist explained. I know we have all given Madeleine a special place in our hearts and know she is a little angel now up in heaven.

Why hasn't her family done this for their little girl? I think people all around the world had their hearts stolen by Madeleine. They would thankfully take a moment with all the others to think about her.

It would be a very special moment in celebrating Madeleine's life.



XOX

scandi
02-10-2009, 06:57 PM
Cipriano Case: Without a Trace of Joana
Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:51 AM
Broadcasted by RTP1 on the 15/10/2008

Quick Facts:

1 – Joana Cipriano vanished from a small place 10 km in the outskirts of Portimão. Last time somebody saw her, she was on her way to a local groceries shop;

2 - Her mother, Leonor Cipriano, only reported to Police her daughter has disappeared two days after;

3 – After a long and difficult investigation, headed by Chief-Inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Leonor Cipriano and her brother were accused of murdering the eight years old child;

4 – The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother refrigerator;

5 – Her mother justified those samples of blood admitting she had beaten Joana, for some reason, she was hurt and she bleeded from her nose;

6 – Leonor Cipriano and her brother, who had a incestuous relationship, were sentenced to 16 years in jail, for the murder of her daughter and niece;

7 – Before the trial, Leonor Cipriano accused five CID officers of beating her, trying to extract a confession. She named the five CID officers, and included Chief-Inspector Gonçalo (”Amaral Lector”, according to British tabloids…);

8 – The Public Prosecutor’s Office opened a criminal investigation and ordered a police line-up, with the CID officers named and accused by Leonor Cipriano of beating her;


9 – The line-up took place with Leonor Cipriano behind a two-way mirror and she couldn’t recognize any of the aggressors;

10 – The Public Prosecutor’s Office magistrate that was in charge of the criminal investigation decided to accuse the five CID officers, but didn’t mentioned, in the accusation sent to the Court, that Leonor Cipriano couldn’t identify any of the aggressors, in the police line-up;

11 – Leonor Cipriano never confessed the murder of her own daughter. Her brother, in a letter written from jail, accused Leonor Cipriano of selling her daughter;

12 – Police is convinced (and the jurors at the trial found enough evidence to pass a verdict of guilty) that Leonor Cipriano and her brother were found, by Joana, having sexual relations, when she came home, back from the groceries shop. As Leonor Cipriano had a lover, at the time, they were afraid she would tell him what she saw;

13 – So, they beat her, in order to frighten her and keep her mouth shut up;

14 – Perhaps accidentally, they beat her so violently that they killed her. So, they decided to get rid of he body and cut it in pieces, keeping some of them in the freezer, while they gave the other pieces to be eaten by pigs (this is what police believes is the strongest possibility, because there was no other trace of Joana Cipriano, unless the blood samples in her mother freezer…)

15 – The body of Joana Cipriano was never found.
Media files

Xklamation-CiprianoCaseWithoutATraceOfJoana824.flv (89.1 MB)

*NOTE: Xklamation is the nic for Joana Morais and this appeared on her website. She is Portuguese, and very proud of it ;} And she has probably read everything about the Cipriano case. I do take her 'perhaps' very seriously. Scandi

xox

TinaD
02-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Unless Madeleine's body is found, there will never be a memorial for her, sas her parents keep to the story that she may still be alive.

Texana
02-10-2009, 07:17 PM
Hi, I just watched Nancy Grace and heard about the 2 hour Memorial service today for little Caylee Anthony.

They all said it was a beautiful and dignified service that gave everyone a special glimpse of Caylee thru the eyes of her family who spoke and then thru new video of her as we hadn't seen before. People drove from Michigan and Kentucky to attend. A long drive away for them. Some arrived at 4am. It was touching.

It made me sit back from my 'puter and say to myself, 'Why didn't they ever do this for Madeleine?'

The public does get involved with cases like this and need closure too, as a psychologist explained. I know we have all given Madeleine a special place in our hearts and know she is a little angel now up in heaven.

Why hasn't her family done this for their little girl? I think people all around the world had their hearts stolen by Madeleine. They would thankfully take a moment with all the others to think about her.

It would be a very special moment in celebrating Madeleine's life.



XOX

Honestly? I believe the family already had that moment when they took her picture to be blessed by the Pope. I think Kate and Gerry would be very contemptuous of any public need or wish to mourn Madeleine.

At some point when Kate and Gerry are quite elderly, they will issue a quiet statement that they have finally "come to terms with" or some such phrase, Madeleine's "probable" death. They will issue a dignified statement to that effect.

And Madeleine will never have a memorial service or anything like it. It will be just another of the many things she deserved but didn't get.

april4sky
02-13-2009, 09:04 AM
April, I do not know you personally & therefore I neither like nor dislike you as a person! We have differed on occasions & I have become agitated with your attitude towards members who do not agree with you & therefore rather than become annoyed & cause drama on the boards, I chose not to reply to your posts, that is not an indication of dislike just what I consider to be prudent & respectful behaviour on a chat room which is graciously provided for me & others to enjoy!

Regarding your comment above about searching, I am sorry but setting up websites & engaging fifth rate shady investigators after the fact just doesn't cut it for me!
If the child genuinely went missing there was a distinct possibilty that she woke up, got out of the apartment & wandered off! Please tell me what parent in their right mind would not have been walking the streets in the hope of finding the child? Remember that this is a real possibility & the McCanns, Kate in particular, did not physically search that night, can you explain that to me? I sure have difficulty in understanding it!Oh Barnaby I so disagree with both the above highlights. :waitasec:
Have you forgotton your previous post to me?

We are all entitled to our opinions and should be free to express them....both Anti and Pro.

Including, "As Sleuthers" pointing out when we see rumours and smears being spread as "facts and evidence."

Barnaby from what has been reported searching for Madeleine did happen that night by Jerry McCann, their friends, and many other people at the resort.
And that searching went on even after the PJ left.
Kate may have been told to stay in the apartment in case there was any news, or if Madeleine was found and returned to her there. That would be understandable.
I for one would not judge any parents reaction in such a nightmare.

I don't dislike you Barnaby! never have. I think you feel as strongly about this case as I do....Just in a different way. :blowkiss:

april4sky
02-13-2009, 10:52 AM
April, I already told you you should consider it a compliment when I respond to your posts, and yet you say I'll be pleased if you don't post for awhile.

I've never thought disagreeing on issues was a reason to not like someone. There's always common ground somewhere.

You can always come hang out in the jury room and see for yourself how people can talk and get along even when they vehemently disagree on issues or cases.

Have a nice whatever--for where ever you are--Hi Texana,

The "compliment" issue has been dealt with before, and I didn't say you didn't like me.
I just thought you would be pleased I wouldn't be posting for a while simply because we had been "butting heads" for a while. :)

And I don't have a problem with disagreements, only the fact that amnesia seems to set whenever questionable "facts" are pointed out....and consistantly ignored.

If we want to learn the real truth Texana I think all points should be looked at...And just as important IMO is looking at where some of the "information" we are being fed comes from.

I do read in the Jury room and have even occasionally posted there so I know we would agree on some of the issues. :)

And thank you! I did have a good time. :)

Texana
02-13-2009, 07:32 PM
April, I'm glad you had a nice time.

And you're not affected by the fires as well, I take it.

I think that when it comes to Madeleine McCann, facts can be a matter of opinion.

april4sky
02-13-2009, 09:29 PM
April, I'm glad you had a nice time.

And you're not affected by the fires as well, I take it.

I think that when it comes to Madeleine McCann, facts can be a matter of opinion.Hi Texana,
I don't agree that real "facts" can be a matter of opinion, especially when they affect peoples lives.

And no, thankfully we were not affected by the bush fires. They happened in Victoria and I'm in Perth W.A.
We spent a few days in Geograph Bay and Margaret River, a beautiful area and famous wine region here.
It was difficult to think of anything other than the fires though as we travelled though bushland to reach Margaret River.
We have travelled through bush before but due to the fires this time felt very different, especially when we passed isolated homes dwarfed by the height and density of the trees surounding them.
It made you realize those poor victims in Victoria wouldn't have stood a chance as extreme heat and cyclonic winds came together.
It's so sad and must have been horrific.

april4sky
02-14-2009, 01:20 AM
Cipriano Case: Without a Trace of Joana

The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother refrigerator;
Scandi
Scandi Joana Morais's blog is nothing more that a hate blog so her "facts" tend to be somewhat skewed to her liking. :rolleyes:

There has never been any trace of Joana's body found!
None of her DNA!
There were claims that traces of her blood were found but conveniently for Goncalo Amaral :rolleyes: this was lost before it could be tested.

As far as I am aware no blood evidence was ever presented in court. :waitasec:

I have also read that in Portugal if you have a confession (again convenient for Amaral if true) you do not need to present further evidence.

And though Leonor Cipriano and her brother apparently " confessed" to killing Joana - they still haven't said what they did with her body. It just makes no sense. :waitasec:

Texana
02-15-2009, 10:19 PM
Hi Texana,
I don't agree that real "facts" can be a matter of opinion, especially when they affect peoples lives.

And no, thankfully we were not affected by the bush fires. They happened in Victoria and I'm in Perth W.A.
We spent a few days in Geograph Bay and Margaret River, a beautiful area and famous wine region here.
It was difficult to think of anything other than the fires though as we travelled though bushland to reach Margaret River.
We have travelled through bush before but due to the fires this time felt very different, especially when we passed isolated homes dwarfed by the height and density of the trees surounding them.
It made you realize those poor victims in Victoria wouldn't have stood a chance as extreme heat and cyclonic winds came together.
It's so sad and must have been horrific.

That is pretty much the same feeling we had after Hurricane Ike; realizing the people who didn't leave in time, had no chance. As you said, a horrific way to go.

I'm having a glass of Australian wine right now. So see, we do agree on a few things.

:)

april4sky
02-16-2009, 02:54 AM
That is pretty much the same feeling we had after Hurricane Ike; realizing the people who didn't leave in time, had no chance. As you said, a horrific way to go.

I'm having a glass of Australian wine right now. So see, we do agree on a few things.

:)Agreed! :)

A great choice of wine - Cheers :toastred:

april4sky
02-20-2009, 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by colomom http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3269487#post3269487)
06 February 2009

Joana Cipriano.

Joana, who unfortunately, died, or rather was killed, as most of the forensic evidence indicates.

Courtesy of Dr. Paulo Sargento
I replied The above statement by Paulo Sargento tells us everything about his "honesty," as in "lack of." :rolleyes:

He was a "witness" in the Joana Cipriano case.
What a coincidence that he has a connection to Goncalo Amaral. :waitasec:

He also knows better than we do that there was "no" forensic evidence to confirm Joana Cipriano is dead.

It's strange how Goncalo Amarals cases end up accusing the parents even though he fails to find "any" trace of their childrens "bodies."

Joana Cipriano....No Dead Body!!...No DNA!!
Not even where the PJ claim the childs body was cut up. :waitasec:

There are definate red flags regarding Goncalo Amaral and his way of running an investigation. IMO Talking about red flags.. http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/1foxfire/Red20Flag1-1.jpg At the time of my reply above I was not aware that Paulo Sargento is actually one of the accused in the Joana Cipriano case.......
Joana Cipriano thread - Justice for all Madeleine McCann family.
By clairesy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:18 pm
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:lbaxinoN4uQJ:justice4mccannfam.5for um.biz/other-missing-children-f11/joana-cipriano-t287.htm+joana+cipriano+case&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au (http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:lbaxinoN4uQJ:justice4mccannfam.5for um.biz/other-missing-children-f11/joana-cipriano-t287.htm+joana+cipriano+case&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au)

There is third link between Joana Cipriano and Madeleine-cases. (Two others are Amaral and Encarnação).

Third link is....Ex-Chief Inspector PAULO PEREIRA CRISTOVAO

One of the police officers accused of involvement in torture in the Cipriano case is recently retired chief inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao.

He has been writing a daily column on the Madeleine case for a Portuguese newspaper that has been reporting sensational stories leaked by sources close to the police inquiry, some of which have later proved untrue.
I guess we now know who the Portuguese press’s “insider/source” was who leaked many of
the smears from the PJ…”Paulo Pereira Cristovao.”

april4sky
02-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Very disturbing if true....

“Disturbing Similarities” With Madeleine

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641315666 (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641315666)
Monday May 12, 2008 Alex Watts, Sky News Online
Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history – It was the first murder trial where a body was never found.

Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess.
Coincidence! :waitasec: I doubt it! http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/1foxfire/Red20Flag1-1.jpg What must be the odds that Goncalo Amaral would be the only cop ever in Portugal to have two cases of missing children - fails to find a trace of either childs body - accuses the mother of one....and tries to accuse the parents of the other with the death of their children. :waitasec:

IMO Goncalo Amaral intended to clear Madeleine's case in exactly the same way he did Joana's......and failed because the world was watching him this time.

I think it explains the ongoing smears/books from these particular accused cops....they are still trying to keep the spotlight away from themselves.....as well as the ongoing search for Madeleine.

IMO all of Goncalo Amarals cases need to be reviewed.....by an independant outside body.

Texana
02-20-2009, 07:23 PM
I don't think the two cases have any bearing on each other. There are too many variables. It's entirely possible that there was police abuse going on with the Joana Cipriano disappearance, but logically, speaking, that does NOT mean the parents were innocent.

It's entirely possible as well that Joana's relatives, being the kind of abusive parents who would kill a young child, are also capable of lying about what the police did.

Every year, we are required to have conferences with students who are failing, by the end of the fourth term. We tell the parents that their children are failing. We have them sign papers. And every year, in May, we have at least one parent who says, "You never told me that my child was failing." So we have to pull out the papers and say, "Is this your signature?"

I have always felt that the focus in Madeleine's disappearance should be on the parents' actions and words. Parents, unfortunately, lie. The parents in every case should face the same scrutiny--regardless of the police, their actions and words must be examined.

april4sky
02-20-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't think the two cases have any bearing on each other. There are too many variables. It's entirely possible that there was police abuse going on with the Joana Cipriano disappearance, but logically, speaking, that does NOT mean the parents were innocent.

It's entirely possible as well that Joana's relatives, being the kind of abusive parents who would kill a young child, are also capable of lying about what the police did.
It's entirely possible too that it's more than a coincidence that Amaral is a corrupt cop.

IMO it is more than a coincidence that Goncalo Amaral is the only cop "ever" in Portugal to have the only two cases - no trace found - accuses parents! :rolleyes:

I have no problem with parents/families being looked at Texana - and the McCanns were....but this time the world was watching so Amaral had to have more than a dodgy confession - which is why we had this conclusion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm)
One paragraph from the Final Report….Volume 17, page 4,647, in which the Portuguese public prosecutor outlines his conclusions…..

"No element of proof was found... as to the circumstances in which the child was taken from the apartment (whether alive, whether dead, whether the victim of negligent homicide or wilful homicide, whether the victim of kidnap-to-order or an opportunistic kidnap).
"We can't even make a consistent prognosis of her fate, including... whether she is alive or dead."
******
As I said I don't have a problem with families being looked at but I do have a problem with corrupt cops.
And there is enough here IMO for Goncalo Amaral's previous cases to be closely looked at.

What must the odds be Texana?

That the same cop!:waitasec: "has the only two cases "ever" :waitasec: in Portugal that no trace of either childs body has been found," :waitasec: and he accuses both children's parents!

Texana
02-21-2009, 11:53 PM
April, the fact that there are two cases where no body has been found could be because a) both sets of parents were extremely clever in disposing of the bodies b) separate perps were very clever c) the children were not ever abducted in the first place, but simply suffered accidents...and so on, and so on.

The facts in each case do not necessarily correlate. The fact that one man was involved in both can be a coincidence, or it can be fact, but the connection in and of itself, nothing logically can be ascribed to that.

Otherwise, we're back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition. You looked at me crossways and my cow died, and Neighbor Smith says you did the same, and his cow died. The moon disappeared in an eclipse, and my cow died, ergo, the two are connected.

As well, Amaral may not be the most honest cop, but that does not mean the McCanns are innocent. That's the reality. He might also be the most honest cop in the world, and be mistaken about the McCanns. That is also reality.

The Portuguese police may not be the most competent in the world, and that does not mean the McCanns are innocent.

Fact A (the nature of the Portuguese police) and Fact B (The McCanns' innocence or guilt) exist completely independently of each other.

I prefer to base my opinion of the veracity of Madeleine's disappearance on the comments and actions of her parents, and the cadaver dogs' responses.

april4sky
02-22-2009, 03:19 AM
April, the fact that there are two cases where no body has been found could be because a) both sets of parents were extremely clever in disposing of the bodies b) separate perps were very clever c) the children were not ever abducted in the first place, but simply suffered accidents...and so on, and so on.

The facts in each case do not necessarily correlate. The fact that one man was involved in both can be a coincidence, or it can be fact, but the connection in and of itself, nothing logically can be ascribed to that.

Otherwise, we're back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition. You looked at me crossways and my cow died, and Neighbor Smith says you did the same, and his cow died. The moon disappeared in an eclipse, and my cow died, ergo, the two are connected.

As well, Amaral may not be the most honest cop, but that does not mean the McCanns are innocent. That's the reality. He might also be the most honest cop in the world, and be mistaken about the McCanns. That is also reality.

The Portuguese police may not be the most competent in the world, and that does not mean the McCanns are innocent.

Fact A (the nature of the Portuguese police) and Fact B (The McCanns' innocence or guilt) exist completely independently of each other.

I prefer to base my opinion of the veracity of Madeleine's disappearance on the comments and actions of her parents, and the cadaver dogs' responses.Sorry Texana but I don't think it's like being back in the days of presumed witchcraft and superstition -
IMO it's a clear case of being back in the days of a witch hunt!
And that happens when you have a corrupt cop who can't solve a case and deliberately sets out "by leaks to the press" to smear the parents of that missing child - In order to manipulate public opinion!
These smears are then perpetuated, twisted and added too by the Jerry Springer like hate forums/blogs......It really has become that sick and twisted.

Some peoples opinions have been so manipulated by those smears that they are only too willing to condemn all comments and actions by the parents. :waitasec:
There is no evidence - not even cadaver - so no other reason.
And we know because the Final Report say's they don't know whether Madeleine is dead or alive!!

In the case of missing Shannon Matthews, her mother Karen's behaviour when she appeared on TV was compared to Kate's - Karen's was said to be how a real distressed parent who's child is missing would behave. :rolleyes: And we all know how that ended.

I have said before I have no idea if Leanor Capriano is guilty or not but it's no coincidence that under Goncalo Amaral there were also leaks in her case too - Why? To manipulate public opinion!!
If she is innocent - she didn't stand a chance! - and Joana didn't get justice!

I won't buy into smears and I don't buy into Gonzalo Amarals "Coincidences"
It's just too much to believe Goncalo Amaral "coincidently" got the only two cases ever in Portugal. :waitasec: Sorry no way!!

Public opinion has been manipulated so much that some are willing - even now! to overlook Amaral - not only his behaviour and incompetance in Madeleine's case - but also show no concern that he has been criminally charged in the Cipriano case!

IMO Amaral was a corrupt cop, "along with others" and he has made himself wealthy on the back of Madeleine. :furious:

I also think it's no coincidence :rolleyes: that some of these cops are no longer in the police force.

Claycat
02-22-2009, 06:38 PM
I don't know if you've ever looked at the Eyes for Lies website, but this person had interesting insight back in 2007.

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2007/05/madeline-mccanns-parents.html

april4sky
02-22-2009, 08:39 PM
I don't know if you've ever looked at the Eyes for Lies website, but this person had interesting insight back in 2007.

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2007/05/madeline-mccanns-parents.html

Hi Claycat! :hand:
I think this person has it right.

Isabella
02-25-2009, 10:28 AM
I have to say at the time of the "disappearance" that I was one of the McCanns biggest supporters. However after a few months I realised there stories kept changing. And the thing is if your telling the truth why does your story have to change?

Regarding the comments from April about Kate never claimed she had been near 6 corpses or took Cuddle cat to work with her - funny thing about that..it was Clarence Mitchell who made those claims on tv and he is supposedly there mouth piece...well maybe it would be a idea to wonder whose actually lieing?

Its also funny..Amaral is a liar..Morais is hate filled..and everyone is a liar or trying to cover themselves - EXCEPT the parents and friends who couldnt keep there story straight.

As for the McCanns being the only one to search - personally i see them as trying to obstruct the case MOO

Texana
02-25-2009, 08:49 PM
Good cops also quit when they are frustrated by foreign countries' heads of states interfering.

It's just as likely that many good cops were frustrated and fed up with being told what to say and what to do by the British government and at the same time, being denigrated publicly by the McCanns, their family, and Clarence Mitchell.

april4sky
02-25-2009, 11:00 PM
I have to say at the time of the "disappearance" that I was one of the McCanns biggest supporters. However after a few months I realised there stories kept changing. And the thing is if your telling the truth why does your story have to change?

Regarding the comments from April about Kate never claimed she had been near 6 corpses or took Cuddle cat to work with her - funny thing about that..it was Clarence Mitchell who made those claims on tv and he is supposedly there mouth piece...well maybe it would be a idea to wonder whose actually lieing?

Its also funny..Amaral is a liar..Morais is hate filled..and everyone is a liar or trying to cover themselves - EXCEPT the parents and friends who couldnt keep there story straight.

As for the McCanns being the only one to search - personally i see them as trying to obstruct the case MOOHi Isabella,
Can you post confirmation regarding your claims about Clarence Mitchell?

Also if you would the contradictions by the McCanns - or their friends....Actual quotes from them!

Beware of "quotes" attributed to them in the press by a source/insider/family member or any other unamed source.

Thanks in advance.

scandi
02-25-2009, 11:21 PM
That is pretty much the same feeling we had after Hurricane Ike; realizing the people who didn't leave in time, had no chance. As you said, a horrific way to go.

I'm having a glass of Australian wine right now. So see, we do agree on a few things.

:)



Mmmmmm You should try that with a slice or two of Australian white cheddar. I bought some at Costco, and it is the very BEST cheese I have ever eaten. I swear ;}

Sorry for the O/T but couldn't help it.

scandi
02-25-2009, 11:55 PM
I have to say at the time of the "disappearance" that I was one of the McCanns biggest supporters. However after a few months I realised there stories kept changing. And the thing is if your telling the truth why does your story have to change?

Regarding the comments from April about Kate never claimed she had been near 6 corpses or took Cuddle cat to work with her - funny thing about that..it was Clarence Mitchell who made those claims on tv and he is supposedly there mouth piece...well maybe it would be a idea to wonder whose actually lieing?

Its also funny..Amaral is a liar..Morais is hate filled..and everyone is a liar or trying to cover themselves - EXCEPT the parents and friends who couldnt keep there story straight.

As for the McCanns being the only one to search - personally i see them as trying to obstruct the case MOO


Hi Isabella, Thanks for your post.

About that searching by the McCann's. I have read so many posters say if this happened to them and their child disappeared, nothing could keep them from searching. They would be bound by instinct to do it.

Odd isn't it. NONE of the friends really searched except 'limply' on the night of May 3rd and morning of May 4th. They all pretty much were sequestered in their apartments.

When the GNR entered the apt both parents were on the phone, either to relatives back home or to SKY News. These parents called the media before the police were even called, FACT, and when asked by a neighbor if she should call the police, Kate said no, we did that. That was a big lie as it was asked of Kate before the first call to the GNR which was made at 10:40. Simply Amazing.

Then after falling on his knees in front of the police, demanding the address to the church, Gerry hit a bar uptown, walked in around 11:15pm and asked for the manager, telling him a little girl had been abducted. He was there for over 1/2 hour FACT as I have corresponded with Onda, a gal who lives in PDL and was in that bar when Gerry walked in the door, overheard him talking and was still there when he left.

Then Gerry and David Payne were seen around 4:30 by the Church of the Light. And at round 5:30 to 6am Gerry and Kate were out walking around the outskirts of town hollering Madeleine's name.

The next day I believe Gerry was out in the brush with the searchers.


That was the extent of either of them physically looking for their little girlie. It is said that is all the lookin' Kate did to find her. And also the extent of Gerry's searching. The PACT was in effect within hours, and everything else done was delegated on their part. And by the 11th of May {within a day or so}, the McCann's were set up and operational with their Team and the Fund - and the $$$'s were rolling in.


IMO there was no reason for them to search as they knew exactly where she had been put. I think Gerry and David were scoping out where her body was tucked close to the church around 4:30am. And I think their first plan could have been the hope her body would be discovered and they would have a line all ready to go, that the abductor had killed her and left her body behind.

When she wasn't discovered by the next day or so a new plan was effected, and her body was placed in a fridge or chest freezer they had located, and . . . . . . .

Sorry I get very passionate at the thought someone could have their child disappear and then at a later date say when asked if they had anything to do with her death, "Find the body and prove it!" {or something very close to that}. I mean, that says everything in a nutshell to me about these parents. Snarky IMO

xox

april4sky
02-26-2009, 02:31 AM
When the GNR entered the apt both parents were on the phone, either to relatives back home or to SKY News. These parents called the media before the police were even called, FACT, and when asked by a neighbor if she should call the police, Kate said no, we did that. That was a big lie as it was asked of Kate before the first call to the GNR which was made at 10:40. Simply Amazing.
Scandi....Here are the "facts" as confirmed in the Final report.

From the Final report thread
Posted by colomom - Post 8 Page 13 and 14

According to that police force, the disappearance would have occurred at 22H40 (later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007, in one of the apartments of the tourist resort ‘Ocean Club’, located at Vila da Luz, Lagos, where a family composed by a couple and 3 children under aged were staying.
******
Posted by me General Discussion 24 Post 400
First phone call to the police....

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:hFcq5_vqAIoJ:www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann+local+police+arrive+before+detecti ve%27s+madeleine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au (http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:hFcq5_vqAIoJ:www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann+local+police+arrive+before+detecti ve%27s+madeleine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au)

10.15pm: Oldfield goes down to the 24-hour reception at the bottom of the hill to raise the alarm. Police are called.
10.30pm: Local police are first to arrive on the scene.
11.10pm: Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) arrive having been contacted by police constables.
The Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria are the ones who didn’t arrive until 11.10pm.

And all this fits in with Mrs Fenn who after the first call offered to phone the police and was told they had already been called.
********
And from my post... General Discussion thread 24 Post No. 230

The first call the McCann made was to the police!! Confirmed by Portuguese prosecutors!!

http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/google.pl?id=971-2 (http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/google.pl?id=971-2)

"Prosecutors also confirm that the first call made by the couple after their daughter went missing was to the police, and not to a British television station as had been widely claimed in some sections of the Portuguese media quoting police sources."

Contacting the Media…Posted by colomom - From the Final report thread Websleuths post No 9.
Quote:
“It should be pointed out, in terms of the media knowledge and divulgation, that witness RACHEL MAMPILLY, at around 2 a.m. on the morning of the 4th, assumes to have contacted the official British television BBC, through someone that she knew, reporting the disappearance and asking for it to be broadcast.”

Isabella
02-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Hi Isabella, Thanks for your post.

About that searching by the McCann's. I have read so many posters say if this happened to them and their child disappeared, nothing could keep them from searching. They would be bound by instinct to do it.

Odd isn't it. NONE of the friends really searched except 'limply' on the night of May 3rd and morning of May 4th. They all pretty much were sequestered in their apartments.

When the GNR entered the apt both parents were on the phone, either to relatives back home or to SKY News. These parents called the media before the police were even called, FACT, and when asked by a neighbor if she should call the police, Kate said no, we did that. That was a big lie as it was asked of Kate before the first call to the GNR which was made at 10:40. Simply Amazing.

Then after falling on his knees in front of the police, demanding the address to the church, Gerry hit a bar uptown, walked in around 11:15pm and asked for the manager, telling him a little girl had been abducted. He was there for over 1/2 hour FACT as I have corresponded with Onda, a gal who lives in PDL and was in that bar when Gerry walked in the door, overheard him talking and was still there when he left.

Then Gerry and David Payne were seen around 4:30 by the Church of the Light. And at round 5:30 to 6am Gerry and Kate were out walking around the outskirts of town hollering Madeleine's name.

The next day I believe Gerry was out in the brush with the searchers.


That was the extent of either of them physically looking for their little girlie. It is said that is all the lookin' Kate did to find her. And also the extent of Gerry's searching. The PACT was in effect within hours, and everything else done was delegated on their part. And by the 11th of May {within a day or so}, the McCann's were set up and operational with their Team and the Fund - and the $$$'s were rolling in.


IMO there was no reason for them to search as they knew exactly where she had been put. I think Gerry and David were scoping out where her body was tucked close to the church around 4:30am. And I think their first plan could have been the hope her body would be discovered and they would have a line all ready to go, that the abductor had killed her and left her body behind.

When she wasn't discovered by the next day or so a new plan was effected, and her body was placed in a fridge or chest freezer they had located, and . . . . . . .

Sorry I get very passionate at the thought someone could have their child disappear and then at a later date say when asked if they had anything to do with her death, "Find the body and prove it!" {or something very close to that}. I mean, that says everything in a nutshell to me about these parents. Snarky IMO

xox


Hi :)

Kate herself said on a British tv programme that she hadnt searched for Madeleine at all. She then blamed fellow holiday makers who was on at holiday at the time for not doing more to search for her daughter.

Isabella
02-26-2009, 08:50 AM
Good cops also quit when they are frustrated by foreign countries' heads of states interfering.

It's just as likely that many good cops were frustrated and fed up with being told what to say and what to do by the British government and at the same time, being denigrated publicly by the McCanns, their family, and Clarence Mitchell.



Our papers were also slamming the Portugese police especially Amaral. They would print pictures of him in just a shirt with it open saying all he did was drink and that he was supposedly in big in charge of this investigation and yet he was having 3 or 4 hour lunches in the pub talking about a case that was supposed to be secret.

Bewick Lady
02-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Hi :)

Kate herself said on a British tv programme that she hadnt searched for Madeleine at all. She then blamed fellow holiday makers who was on at holiday at the time for not doing more to search for her daughter.

Hiya All :)

Its been a while since I've posted, but Iv'e been dealing with one problem after another of late. I've nipped on here to see what is what still.

I agree with Isabella, I also remember a programme that was broadcast here and Kate certainly did say that she never searched at all. If I remember correctly I also re-call Kate saying that the holidaymakers did little or nothing towards the search for Maddie. I shall have a look and see if I can come up with some links.

Anyway hope that you are all ok?

Isabella
02-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Hiya All :)

Its been a while since I've posted, but Iv'e been dealing with one problem after another of late. I've nipped on here to see what is what still.

I agree with Isabella, I also remember a programme that was broadcast here and Kate certainly did say that she never searched at all. If I remember correctly I also re-call Kate saying that the holidaymakers did little or nothing towards the search for Maddie. I shall have a look and see if I can come up with some links.

Anyway hope that you are all ok?


Yea thats the programme I mean. I think it was either Panorama or something to do with Jon Corner.

I think she had a cheek to say that. In the days following the "disappearance" there was photos of Gerry playing tennis and barmen said that he repeatedly went in the bar for drinks to take back to the apartments. You would think a concerned father would be out looking for his missing child - but no. Funnily enough I did see lots of pictures of holiday makers searching for her daughter ..maybe Kate missed them as she was spending time around the pool or something. Weird couple.

I do think that Kate is mentally unstable or at least she gives a good impression of being that way. I also think she could not cope with Madeleine. While I doubt that the McCanns will ever be charged with Madeleines "disappearance" at least in the eyes of the majority of the British people the parents know what happened and thats something the McCanns cant escape from.

Texana
02-26-2009, 10:20 PM
Mmmmmm You should try that with a slice or two of Australian white cheddar. I bought some at Costco, and it is the very BEST cheese I have ever eaten. I swear ;}

Sorry for the O/T but couldn't help it.

Ha, you must have sensed that the oldest little Texana (not so little anymore) is a white cheddar fan cheesehead. I buy two blocks of it a week, minimum. We don't have a Costco, but I will have to check out Sam's.

As for contradictions by the McCanns-- one is the statement that they would not leave Portugal without Madeleine. When they were named arguido, they left immediately.

The biggest contradiction of course, was the statement from Gerry that dining at the Tapas restaurant was like dining "in your own garden." Looking at the actual distance and time to walk back to the apartment, it was much more than two or even five minutes from a backyard into a home. It was more like a block. Dining in one's "garden" implies that you can easily hear or see any kind of problem in the house where the children are supposedly sleeping.

And the distance from the Tapas bar and the McCanns' apartment precluded them seeing or hearing anything that happened that night.

You can argue attitude, you can argue comments, but you can't argue around the fact of the actual distance and Gerry's statement.

Isabella
02-27-2009, 07:32 AM
Ha, you must have sensed that the oldest little Texana (not so little anymore) is a white cheddar fan cheesehead. I buy two blocks of it a week, minimum. We don't have a Costco, but I will have to check out Sam's.

As for contradictions by the McCanns-- one is the statement that they would not leave Portugal without Madeleine. When they were named arguido, they left immediately.

The biggest contradiction of course, was the statement from Gerry that dining at the Tapas restaurant was like dining "in your own garden." Looking at the actual distance and time to walk back to the apartment, it was much more than two or even five minutes from a backyard into a home. It was more like a block. Dining in one's "garden" implies that you can easily hear or see any kind of problem in the house where the children are supposedly sleeping.

And the distance from the Tapas bar and the McCanns' apartment precluded them seeing or hearing anything that happened that night.

You can argue attitude, you can argue comments, but you can't argue around the fact of the actual distance and Gerry's statement.



Tex did you see how dark it was there? It was pitch black around the apartments and NO WAY could you see that apartment even 50 yards away. There was a programme on our tv last year with EX Scotland yard cops...and they showed outside there at night and it totally shocked me how anyone let alone doctors could leave there children alone in such a dark area as that - especially one prone to sleep walking.

Incidentally the Ex Scotland yard cops said she wasnt kidnapped and that it couldnt have happened as the McCanns claimed.

Texana
02-27-2009, 07:50 PM
Tex did you see how dark it was there? It was pitch black around the apartments and NO WAY could you see that apartment even 50 yards away. There was a programme on our tv last year with EX Scotland yard cops...and they showed outside there at night and it totally shocked me how anyone let alone doctors could leave there children alone in such a dark area as that - especially one prone to sleep walking.

Incidentally the Ex Scotland yard cops said she wasnt kidnapped and that it couldnt have happened as the McCanns claimed.

Exactly.

I've always thought that there are two likely explanations: One, Madeleine fell and hit her head the night before with a fatal injury (when the children were also left alone.) Two, the parent-doctors were so comfortable leaving their children alone because they knew they wouldn't wake up--they had given what they thought were "safe" doses of a mild sedative. Then Madeleine had a fatal reaction or some kind of unforeseen complication.

It makes sense because the McCanns are so adamant about not feeling guilty, being "responsible" parents--Kate said that knowing that she was a "responsible parent" was what got her through those early days.

They feel that if they couldn't foresee the reaction or accident as "doctors" then it was truly an accident, and therefore, they are truly innocent.

It explains both their attitude and the cadaver dog alerts and their actions that night.

mysterymax
03-06-2009, 02:50 PM
And why didn't she fight back? Was she perhaps drugged? Why would an "intruder" risk being taken by surprise by one or both parents? Were either of the twins questioned or were they too young to ask? (Some kids are eloquent by the age of two.) The probability that the Drs. Mccann killed their oldest child is FAR GREATER (statistically speaking) than the presence of a mysterious intruder...and who are "they" as in "They've taken her!" One would expect a distraught mother to scream, "Oh my God she's gone! Has anyone seen her? Help! Help!" in a rush of panic. If it were assumed that she had been sonambulating, why wouldn't the mother rush around the immediate area hoping to find the girl? There's simply too much bizarre behavior going on with the parents.

Texana
03-06-2009, 07:45 PM
And why didn't she fight back? Was she perhaps drugged? Why would an "intruder" risk being taken by surprise by one or both parents? Were either of the twins questioned or were they too young to ask? (Some kids are eloquent by the age of two.) The probability that the Drs. Mccann killed their oldest child is FAR GREATER (statistically speaking) than the presence of a mysterious intruder...and who are "they" as in "They've taken her!" One would expect a distraught mother to scream, "Oh my God she's gone! Has anyone seen her? Help! Help!" in a rush of panic. If it were assumed that she had been sonambulating, why wouldn't the mother rush around the immediate area hoping to find the girl? There's simply too much bizarre behavior going on with the parents.

Exactly. In one of the hugest red flags to me personally, the McCanns did not want the twins awakened to see what they might have seen. In fact, it was noted that the twins were sleeping soundly--and were not awakened by all the commotion (another obvious point towards some kind of drug effect.)

Who wouldn't have shaken awake the other children, asking, "Where's Maddie?" Even if the children could say nothing...they would have been asked.

Probably because the McCanns felt that with Madeleine already dead, there was no need to justify waking up the twins.

Pinkhammer
03-07-2009, 08:59 PM
I've been away for quite awhile and I now see that poor little Maddie is still being deprived of justice.

I can't believe her father had the nerve to set foot in Portugal again!

What is her ditzy mom up to? She reminds me very much of Casey Anthony--a narcissistic mother who seeks her own pleasure before all else. The whole Anthony case reminds me of the Maddie case. And I believe drugging of the children took place in both cases. Knock the kids out so the parents can go out and have a wild time--yeah, that's the ticket!

Some people should not be allowed to reproduce!

Barnaby
03-08-2009, 11:07 PM
Hi guys, hope you are all well! I haven't been here since Colomon left, no heart now really, No offence meant to my friends here but missing her insight & constant updated information! She is a huge loss!

teacherbees
03-09-2009, 02:07 AM
Colomom left? Why???? I haven't been on much lately and missed this development entirely.

thefragile7393
03-09-2009, 07:10 PM
Ok I somehow totally missed this too.............

scandi
03-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Ok I somehow totally missed this too.............


We will all miss Colomom. Her heart is deep inside the tragedy of Madeleine going missing.

She is still here in a way, walking the halls of Websleuths and keeping Madeleine's spirit alive so we don't ever forget this little wisp of a girl who is still lost to our world.

You can't turn a page without seeing a message from Colomom. Or do research on the case without seeing the devotion Colomom put into maintaining a continual link record of the case. What she did for everyone here was just wonderful, and to fill those shoes will be impossible.

I think about her often and hope she is doing well. She was so involved here this has to be a big loss for her too.

Krams to ALL

Texana
03-09-2009, 08:27 PM
We will all miss Colomom. Her heart is deep inside the tragedy of Madeleine going missing.

She is still here in a way, walking the halls of Websleuths and keeping Madeleine's spirit alive so we don't ever forget this little wisp of a girl who is still lost to our world.

You can't turn a page without seeing a message from Colomom. Or do research on the case without seeing the devotion Colomom put into maintaining a continual link record of the case. What she did for everyone here was just wonderful, and to fill those shoes will be impossible.

I think about her often and hope she is doing well. She was so involved here this has to be a big loss for her too.

Krams to ALL

Well said, Scandi.

Bewick Lady
03-10-2009, 02:02 PM
I am also shocked that Colomom has left, she will be a huge loss to the boards. Even though I dont post that often I still like to read through the boards, I just assumed Colomom was on holiday or taking time out. If anyone is in touch with her could you please tell her that she is a miss and I wish her well. Thanks.


I dont know if this has been posted already but this has been on sky news today.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Gerry-McCann-Accuses-Media-Of-Making-Up-Some-Stories-About-Madeleine/Video/200903215238597?lpos=video__News_in_Video_Home_Reg ion_0&lid=VIDEO_15238597_Gerry_McCann_Accuses_Media_Of_M aking_Up_Some_Stories_About_Madeleine

Salem
03-10-2009, 04:29 PM
Yea - them stories were all made up...... sure they were......

I agree - we all miss Colomom. Maybe she will be back one of these days? One can hope.

Salem

Isabella
03-10-2009, 06:37 PM
I am also shocked that Colomom has left, she will be a huge loss to the boards. Even though I dont post that often I still like to read through the boards, I just assumed Colomom was on holiday or taking time out. If anyone is in touch with her could you please tell her that she is a miss and I wish her well. Thanks.


I dont know if this has been posted already but this has been on sky news today.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Gerry-McCann-Accuses-Media-Of-Making-Up-Some-Stories-About-Madeleine/Video/200903215238597?lpos=video__News_in_Video_Home_Reg ion_0&lid=VIDEO_15238597_Gerry_McCann_Accuses_Media_Of_M aking_Up_Some_Stories_About_Madeleine

Apparently why that was held today was cos they wanted to know why they sued the newspapers instead of going through the press complaints committee.

Ofc..had they gone through the press complaints committee which would have made sense they wouldnt have got the money...and also the facts may have had to come out also which would never have done.

Texana
03-10-2009, 07:01 PM
Apparently why that was held today was cos they wanted to know why they sued the newspapers instead of going through the press complaints committee.

Ofc..had they gone through the press complaints committee which would have made sense they wouldnt have got the money...and also the facts may have had to come out also which would never have done.

I couldn't bear to watch the video of Gerry today.

Can anybody who did watch, post a brief summary? I'd be grateful.

We will all have to step up to the plate a bit (American idiom, baseball!) to do more with Colomom gone. I don't have her prolific ability to bring in sources and items, but I can do my little bit.

ThoughtFox
03-10-2009, 11:09 PM
OMG - are you kidding? Colomom left? I'm stunned!

If she is reading this, please come back someday, Colomom! :blowkiss:

I think I understand. This is one of those cases that have two such opposite views that after a while it gets old to debate the same facts again and again.

It's natural to get discouraged in a case like this that has obviously been covered up (in my opinion), but often a miracle will happen and the truth will come out in it's own time. Look at the Chandra Levy case that's back in the news - and I gave up on that a long time ago!

Never say never!

Bewick Lady
03-11-2009, 11:18 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161035/Madeleine-McCanns-father-slams-media-damaging-coverage-disappearance.html

Texana
03-11-2009, 11:36 PM
Thanks, Bewick Lady.

It's interesting that Gerry blames others for making Madeleine a commodity.

SleuthMom
03-12-2009, 07:10 PM
Hi peeps. I haven't abandon you guys. Just my life is very hectic at the moment, I am having a very hard time dealing with my almost 9 years old autistic son, there are days that I am so tired that I just go straight to bed, and others so stressed out that I fall asleep in tears.

Hope you all understand....:(

Can anyone give me some updates if any? How are you all doing? I miss you guys.

Texana
03-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Hi peeps. I haven't abandon you guys. Just my life is very hectic at the moment, I am having a very hard time dealing with my almost 9 years old autistic son, there are days that I am so tired that I just go straight to bed, and others so stressed out that I fall asleep in tears.

Hope you all understand....:(

Can anyone give me some updates if any? How are you all doing? I miss you guys.

We miss you! But certainly understand your issues. Hang in there!

There are not many updates other than Gerry's return trip to Portugal and his defiant recent public statements about being treated poorly by the press. (still amazing gall to me, given the numerous fluff pieces the press has run on the McCanns.)

Maybe someone else can think of a few other recent items in the news--

Salem
03-12-2009, 09:31 PM
We miss you! But certainly understand your issues. Hang in there!

There are not many updates other than Gerry's return trip to Portugal and his defiant recent public statements about being treated poorly by the press. (still amazing gall to me, given the numerous fluff pieces the press has run on the McCanns.)

Maybe someone else can think of a few other recent items in the news--

Everything Texana said, Sleuthmom! We do miss you and I send you hugs! Things will get better, just hang in there.

Bewick Lady & Isabella - thank you for posting the media items you see in the British news.

Thoughtfox - thank you for reminding us that miracles happen! I can't wait until it is Maddie's turn.

And everybody else - it is good to see you all here checking in. I don't post much here, but read everytime I see that someone has posted a comment or two.

Prayers for Maddie, may she come home soon.

Salem

Isabella
03-13-2009, 08:25 AM
The funny thing for me about the Press Complaints thing ...a couple iof papers only really published stories that were being published in the Portugese papers. They did put in these editions "according to Portugese sources" or that it wa "published in yesterdays edition of the CM". They did not say the accusations were coming from them.

Now under our rules...if people have a problem with the press they make a complaint to the press complaints committee. They will then investigate it thoroughly and then make an announcement in all the papers and on the tv usually with the findings of the complaint. If there are several avenues to the complaint it will deal with all of them before revealing its findings.

So this is why they wanted to know - why did they just go for a out of court settlement with the papers RATHER than try and do it through the proper means? Why did they not want the press complaints to investigate the matter and clear there names? I mean there meant to have been so upset about this right? Taking the m oney and running didnt clear there names at all ...just made them look even dodgier.

The papers themselves said - they settled because it was cheaper to just settle than fight it in court so go and figure how settling makes the McCanns look better.

Salem
03-13-2009, 03:57 PM
I think the McCanns took the money and skipped the committee because they did not want to answer any hard questions.

Salem

Refugee
03-13-2009, 09:22 PM
Well, think about this, the wife of the chairman of the press complaints commission was the one who took Gerry McCann to Washington!

I complained to the press complaints commission about the Sun newspaper stating that Madeleien was abducted, their decision was, I had no case because I was a third party, it wasnt about me.

I also complained about the link between the chairman and the woman who took Gerry to Washington. Thats was rejected too. Who was it made that decision? The chairman of the press compliants commission!

SleuthMom
03-14-2009, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the update, seems like Gerry continue loving the attention. :rolleyes:

Texana
03-14-2009, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the update, seems like Gerry continue loving the attention. :rolleyes:

Bingo. He's angry and annoyed beyond reason that because his daughter died due to what he sees as an unfortunate and unforeseen accident, the rest of his life is going to be spent dealing with all this "stuff." '

I wonder if he will ever realize or even consider that telling the truth about what happened that night would have been far better in the end for "getting back to normal" than their twisted lies and phony searches.

Sophie
03-16-2009, 01:37 PM
New on here but just wanted to say 'thank you' for all you have done for Madeleine. My own fear is that we we will never learn the truth but the efforts of Websleuth posters make me much more optimistic...

Salem
03-16-2009, 02:13 PM
Hi Sophie - welcome to WS and Maddie's case. It is always nice to have a fresh prespective.

I pray daily for Maddie's miracle to happen so that she may be brought home.

Salem

Barnaby
03-17-2009, 10:57 PM
Hi Sophie & welcome! Sadly I think you might be right!

Salem
03-18-2009, 12:05 AM
O/T - I'm really sad this evening thinking about these precious little girls - Maddie, Caylee and Haleigh. I know there are many more children and boys also, but for me these 3 cases have taken up the majority of my time on WS.

I feel pretty certain about what happened to Maddie and we know what happened to Caylee. With Haleigh - I do not have a strong feeling in any direction. So sad.

I hope these three little girls have each other to play with and are singing and dancing with the angels.

It just dawned on me, their ages - Caylee 2 going on 3; Maddie 3 going on 4 and Haleigh 5. Wow - such babies.

Salem

scandi
03-18-2009, 12:12 AM
O/T - I'm really sad this evening thinking about these precious little girls - Maddie, Caylee and Haleigh. I know there are many more children and boys also, but for me these 3 cases have taken up the majority of my time on WS.

I feel pretty certain about what happened to Maddie and we know what happened to Caylee. With Haleigh - I do not have a strong feeling in any direction. So sad.

I hope these three little girls have each other to play with and are singing and dancing with the angels.

It just dawned on me, their ages - Caylee 2 going on 3; Maddie 3 going on 4 and Haleigh 5. Wow - such babies.

Salem

Oh Salem, Bless Your Heart for that post. I picture them as angels. Over the last 6 years we have had so many precious little buttons {as Charlie calls them ;} in trouble, each one with a story to tell.

All such babies, you are so right. They did not deserve whatever happened to them. That is why Websleuths is so special to me. Everyone here cares about what happens to the children.

KRAMS Salem

Gozgals
03-18-2009, 01:27 AM
O/T - I'm really sad this evening thinking about these precious little girls - Maddie, Caylee and Haleigh. I know there are many more children and boys also, but for me these 3 cases have taken up the majority of my time on WS.

I feel pretty certain about what happened to Maddie and we know what happened to Caylee. With Haleigh - I do not have a strong feeling in any direction. So sad.

I hope these three little girls have each other to play with and are singing and dancing with the angels.

It just dawned on me, their ages - Caylee 2 going on 3; Maddie 3 going on 4 and Haleigh 5. Wow - such babies.

Salem


I agree with you. I am sad too and appreciate your post. God Bless these children. They deserved so much more in life and should have been out playing and growing. My heart breaks when I think of the three of them and how their dreams have been stolen.

Always
Gozgals

april4sky
03-18-2009, 07:49 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm)

One paragraph from the Final Report….Volume 17, page 4,647, in which the Portuguese public prosecutor outlines his conclusions…..

"No element of proof was found... as to the circumstances in which the child was taken from the apartment (whether alive, whether dead, whether the victim of negligent homicide or wilful homicide, whether the victim of kidnap-to-order or an opportunistic kidnap).

"We can't even make a consistent prognosis of her fate, including... whether she is alive or dead."

Sophie
03-18-2009, 06:33 PM
Thank you for the welcomes! In all truth, I don't have a set theory on this case and I'm probably pretty much of a fence-sitter although the questions Kate refused to answer and the general McCann demeanour (which I know isn't evidence but does influence thinking) put me closer to one side of the fence than the other...

Texana
03-20-2009, 12:04 AM
O/T - I'm really sad this evening thinking about these precious little girls - Maddie, Caylee and Haleigh. I know there are many more children and boys also, but for me these 3 cases have taken up the majority of my time on WS.

I feel pretty certain about what happened to Maddie and we know what happened to Caylee. With Haleigh - I do not have a strong feeling in any direction. So sad.

I hope these three little girls have each other to play with and are singing and dancing with the angels.

It just dawned on me, their ages - Caylee 2 going on 3; Maddie 3 going on 4 and Haleigh 5. Wow - such babies.

Salem

They were such babies, weren't they? It is heartbreaking to think of what happened to them, and how much that differs from what they should have had.

And then you think of the children whose faces and names we do not even know. I would add to the list Riley Sawyers (Baby Grace) as well.

Sophie, welcome.

Salem
03-20-2009, 01:39 AM
You're right Tex! Prayers for Riley. That was such a sad, sad case.

I just don't understand why, if the POS knows someone will take the child and they can be free, why can't they just let the child be with that someone that will love and take care of them? Why?

Salem

Isabella
03-20-2009, 07:58 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm)

One paragraph from the Final Report….Volume 17, page 4,647, in which the Portuguese public prosecutor outlines his conclusions…..

"No element of proof was found... as to the circumstances in which the child was taken from the apartment (whether alive, whether dead, whether the victim of negligent homicide or wilful homicide, whether the victim of kidnap-to-order or an opportunistic kidnap).

"We can't even make a consistent prognosis of her fate, including... whether she is alive or dead."


No offence...but in my opinion...unlike the McCanns and there friends - the DOGS NO NOT LIE"

april4sky
03-20-2009, 08:11 AM
No offence...but in my opinion...unlike the McCanns and there friends - the DOGS NO NOT LIE"

DOGS DON'T TALK EITHER!!

But dog handlers do!
Isabella try reading the PJ's final report which includes the dog handlers conclusions.

Isabella
03-20-2009, 08:18 AM
DOGS DON'T TALK EITHER!!

But dog handlers do!
Isabella try reading the PJ's final report which includes the dog handlers conclusions.


No offence but i saw the video - i also saw an interview with the dog handlers earlier on. He in fact said the dogs had never been wrong before.

I find it strange that they would destroy the reputation of what was supposedly 2 of the best dogs in the world at this kind of thing..and also the world famous testing laboratory..for these people.

But as i said before..even if the McCanns never get charged - in the field of public opinion..in this country they are seen to be guilty so..hopefully they will never forget there actions on that holiday - whatever they may have been. MOO

april4sky
03-20-2009, 08:37 AM
No offence but i saw the video - i also saw an interview with the dog handlers earlier on. He in fact said the dogs had never been wrong before.

I find it strange that they would destroy the reputation of what was supposedly 2 of the best dogs in the world at this kind of thing..and also the world famous testing laboratory..for these people.

But as i said before..even if the McCanns never get charged - in the field of public opinion..in this country they are seen to be guilty so..hopefully they will never forget there actions on that holiday - whatever they may have been. MOONo offence either Isabella but this is your opinion and has no basis in fact!
Nor is it the opinion or conclusion of the dogs handlers.

Have you read the dog handlers conclusions in the final report?

Isabella
03-20-2009, 08:45 AM
This is your opinion Isabella and has no basis in fact!
Nor is it the opinion or conclusion of the dogs handlers.

Have you read the dog handlers conclusions in the final report?


What is my opinion? That most people think there guilty that live in this country? I in fact dont know one person who think there innocent. I have read many many message boards before they got deleted in this country- i have read newspapers in this country...and its the same everywhere. And..i do live in this country not the other side of the world. Just read the comments from the British on this board even...

And again..i saw an interview with the dog handler..and someone from the lab ..and then..later on they changed there mind ( or was got at more to the point IMO)..but again..to m e the dogs dont lie..i saw they acted. I also saw how the McCanns acted..and there friends and i know who i believe without a shadow of a doubt sorry.

And nothing you can ever say will change that. It is what it is. If the McCanns had told the truth along with there friends there wouldnt be so many discrepancies sorry.

april4sky
03-20-2009, 09:09 AM
What is my opinion? That most people think there guilty that live in this country? I in fact dont know one person who think there innocent. I have read many many message boards before they got deleted in this country- i have read newspapers in this country...and its the same everywhere. And..i do live in this country not the other side of the world. Just read the comments from the British on this board even...

And again..i saw an interview with the dog handler..and someone from the lab ..and then..later on they changed there mind ( or was got at more to the point IMO)..but again..to m e the dogs dont lie..i saw they acted. I also saw how the McCanns acted..and there friends and i know who i believe without a shadow of a doubt sorry.

And nothing you can ever say will change that. It is what it is. If the McCanns had told the truth along with there friends there wouldnt be so many discrepancies sorry.Sorry Isabella but I don't believe most in the UK think they are guilty - not for a second!
I have relatives and friends there and it's not the feedback I get - not by a long shot.
And not all the Brits who have posted here have thought them guilty either!

Now if we are talking about blogs and message boards - the Jerry Springer type - thats different.

The dog handlers didn't change their minds. Until the forensics were done they couldn't have made a determination.

And if you are into conspiracy theories Isabella then we are back to opinions again.

Isabella
03-20-2009, 09:42 AM
Sorry Isabella but I don't believe most in the UK think they are guilty - not for a second!
I have relatives and friends there and it's not the feedback I get - not by a long shot.
And not all the Brits who have posted here have thought them guilty either!

Now if we are talking about blogs and message boards - the Jerry Springer type - thats different.

The dog handlers didn't change their minds. Until the forensics were done they couldn't have made a determination.

And if you are into conspiracy theories Isabella then we are back to opinions again.


In a daily paper there was a vote and 80% of the voters thought the McCanns knew what happened that night. I can honestly say hand on hand...as a resident of this country i dont know anyone who thinks the McCanns are innocent. I actually at the time lived just a few miles from the McCanns also..and again the local feeling was they knew more than they was telling.

At the end of the day there is not one scrap of evidence Madeleiene was kidnapped. There is evidence from people involved that the McCanns and there friends/spokespeople/agents didnt act as they should have done.

And what i truly dont understand..is if my daughter was "kidnapped" i would do ANYTHING i could to work with the police in Portugal. I would answer anything i was asked. I would do reconstructions..ANYTHING...if it meant helping my little girl..ANYTHING..i sure wouldnt refuse to asnwer questions or try to impede the investigation in any way.

MOO

april4sky
03-20-2009, 10:36 AM
In a daily paper there was a vote and 80% of the voters thought the McCanns knew what happened that night. I can honestly say hand on hand...as a resident of this country i dont know anyone who thinks the McCanns are innocent. I actually at the time lived just a few miles from the McCanns also..and again the local feeling was they knew more than they was telling.

At the end of the day there is not one scrap of evidence Madeleiene was kidnapped. There is evidence from people involved that the McCanns and there friends/spokespeople/agents didnt act as they should have done.

And what i truly dont understand..is if my daughter was "kidnapped" i would do ANYTHING i could to work with the police in Portugal. I would answer anything i was asked. I would do reconstructions..ANYTHING...if it meant helping my little girl..ANYTHING..i sure wouldnt refuse to asnwer questions or try to impede the investigation in any way.

MOOThere is not one scrap of evidence that the McCanns harmed Madeleine.
And I personally know many in the UK who think the McCanns innocent and the final report is the confirmation for me.

There were witnesses "not just Jane Tanner" who saw a man carrying a child that night.
And according to the final report there were unidentified fingerprints found in the apartment.

Isabella can you provide the link for the vote you mentioned?

And Kate was following advice from her lawyer when she refused to answer those questions.
It was also clear by then the McCanns had lost faith in the PJ as they were leaking lies to the press so I can't say I blame her.

Isabella
03-20-2009, 07:02 PM
There is not one scrap of evidence that the McCanns harmed Madeleine.
And I personally know many in the UK who think the McCanns innocent and the final report is the confirmation for me.

There were witnesses "not just Jane Tanner" who saw a man carrying a child that night.
And according to the final report there were unidentified fingerprints found in the apartment.

Isabella can you provide the link for the vote you mentioned?

And Kate was following advice from her lawyer when she refused to answer those questions.
It was also clear by then the McCanns had lost faith in the PJ as they were leaking lies to the press so I can't say I blame her.


With respect the McCanns reps was leaking things to the press. The way the McCanns and there friends and Mr Pink Shirt Mitchell ridiculed the Portugese police was simply disgusting. There are no other words for it. It made me ashamed to be British.

As for the vote it was on the front page of one of the dailies a year ago at least. The Express or Mail. Whether it is still there or not i dont know...seeing as Mitchell tried to get everything negative out of our papers regarding the McCanns.

As for the unidentified fingerprints..no offence..but when the Pjs got there...the place was teeeming with people..and i very m uch doubt all those people were even k nown to the McCanns to be checked off.

As for people seeing a man holding a child. Actually... Martin Smith claimed that after seeing Gerry McCann walk down the runway at East Midlands airport carrying one of the twins...that the guy he saw down by the beach carrying a child could have been Gerry or closely resembled him. The guy in charge was going to get him over to question this..and then..oh dear he got replaced..and after that apparenly Martin Smith changed his story.

Regarding Jane Tanner. Well firstly she claims she saw a walking eggman. At one point...it "could have been a child" and this progressed to it was " definetly a child with pink pyjamas on" over some weeks. Likewise the egg man description changed also. Im just surprised she didnt give a description of someone who looked like RM. The thing is...GM and JW claim that Tanner wasnt where she said she was...and the waiter claimed it was the guys who left the bar ( til Kate went out) so..theres more holes in Janes story than a sieve. And again if your telling the truth there should be no discrepancies. I'm sorry but i simply do not believe Janes story based on the info at hand - and the question is..why would she lie? Well IMO to protect her R'OB who i also think was involved that night.

Not just that..if the McCanns were innocent..and there child was kidnapped..why..did the friends lie about RM being there that night? Why did they hire the goons who later went intimidating people? They harassed JM and others have said they was offered money by Metado to make false sightings of Madeleine. Why would Metado do this if..the Mccanns were innocent? Why would they have there PI's harassing old women? How weird is it that the woman from the petrol station in Morocoo who supposedly saw Madeleine came from the same city as the McCanns? Why did the MCanns backer go and see RM for? Im sorry but IMO Metado are dodgy as anything ...

And another thing..the McCanns and there friends..you would think would want to help the police...but well normal parents would yes but..not only did they not answer the questions asked of them ( KM) but..before the friends would agree to talk to the Pjs in this country the PJS had to spend months getting permission cos the friends wouldnt talk to the pjs without it. The friends wouldnt do the reconstruction ( they claim the McCanns told them not to). Why didnt ANY of them want to help find this little girl?

april4sky
03-20-2009, 10:04 PM
With respect the McCanns reps was leaking things to the press. The way the McCanns and there friends and Mr Pink Shirt Mitchell ridiculed the Portugese police was simply disgusting. There are no other words for it. It made me ashamed to be British.

With respect it was the PJ who leaked LIES. And the final report is proof of this.

As for the vote it was on the front page of one of the dailies a year ago at least. The Express or Mail. Whether it is still there or not i dont know...seeing as Mitchell tried to get everything negative out of our papers regarding the McCanns.

The Express - well enough said I think. The lies they printed cost them dearly.

As for the unidentified fingerprints..no offence..but when the Pjs got there...the place was teeeming with people..and i very m uch doubt all those people were even k nown to the McCanns to be checked off.
Panic would have happened in any emergency like this one. And it doesn't change the "fact" that there were unidentified fingerprints found, any of which could have belonged to the kidnapper.

As for people seeing a man holding a child. Actually... Martin Smith claimed that after seeing Gerry McCann walk down the runway at East Midlands airport carrying one of the twins...that the guy he saw down by the beach carrying a child could have been Gerry or closely resembled him. The guy in charge was going to get him over to question this..and then..oh dear he got replaced..and after that apparenly Martin Smith changed his story.

Isabella if you read the final report it clearly states Gerry McCann was seated at the Tapas bar at the same time Martin Smith reported he saw the man carrying a child.
Disgraced ex-cop Amaral knows this but purposely left this "fact" out of his book.

This is the first time I have heard it claimed Martin Smith changed his story!
The number of people accused of being part of this "conspiracy" would be comical if it wasn't so tragic.

Regarding Jane Tanner. Well firstly she claims she saw a walking eggman. At one point...it "could have been a child" and this progressed to it was " definetly a child with pink pyjamas on" over some weeks. Likewise the egg man description changed also. Im just surprised she didnt give a description of someone who looked like RM. The thing is...GM and JW claim that Tanner wasnt where she said she was...and the waiter claimed it was the guys who left the bar ( til Kate went out) so..theres more holes in Janes story than a sieve. And again if your telling the truth there should be no discrepancies. I'm sorry but i simply do not believe Janes story based on the info at hand - and the question is..why would she lie? Well IMO to protect her R'OB who i also think was involved that night.
Again Jane Tanner never changed her statement. Read the final report. The PJ and the press - often fed by the PJ were the ones responsible for the malicious missinformation.
Not just that..if the McCanns were innocent..and there child was kidnapped..why..did the friends lie about RM being there that night? Why did they hire the goons who later went intimidating people? They harassed JM and others have said they was offered money by Metado to make false sightings of Madeleine. Why would Metado do this if..the Mccanns were innocent? Why would they have there PI's harassing old women? How weird is it that the woman from the petrol station in Morocoo who supposedly saw Madeleine came from the same city as the McCanns? Why did the MCanns backer go and see RM for? Im sorry but IMO Metado are dodgy as anything ...This is just rumour and opinion Isabella which I neither believe nor share.
And another thing..the McCanns and there friends..you would think would want to help the police...but well normal parents would yes but..not only did they not answer the questions asked of them ( KM) but..before the friends would agree to talk to the Pjs in this country the PJS had to spend months getting permission cos the friends wouldnt talk to the pjs without it. The friends wouldnt do the reconstruction ( they claim the McCanns told them not to). Why didnt ANY of them want to help find this little girl?
Again we have a difference of opinion.
IMO the PJ, and Amaral specifically, were completely incompetent and is the reason disgraced ex-cop Amaral was "removed."
And the McCanns with the help of many, many people are the only ones trying to find Madeleine. This has been the case for a very long time because it was clear the PJ gave up long ago - thanks to disgraced ex-cop Amarals incompetence.

It's very telling "apart from the incompetent PJ" when you consider that everyone who has met the McCanns, especially all the people who spent a lot of time with them in the weeks following Madeleine's disapearance fully support and believe in them.

Isabella
03-20-2009, 10:57 PM
With respect it was the PJ who leaked LIES. And the final report is proof of this.


The Express - well enough said I think. The lies they printed cost them dearly.

Panic would have happened in any emergency like this one. And it doesn't change the "fact" that there were unidentified fingerprints found, any of which could have belonged to the kidnapper.

Isabella if you read the final report it clearly states Gerry McCann was seated at the Tapas bar at the same time Martin Smith reported he saw the man carrying a child.
Disgraced ex-cop Amaral knows this but purposely left this "fact" out of his book.

This is the first time I have heard it claimed Martin Smith changed his story!
The number of people accused of being part of this "conspiracy" would be comical if it wasn't so tragic.

Again Jane Tanner never changed her statement. Read the final report. The PJ and the press - often fed by the PJ were the ones responsible for the malicious missinformation. This is just rumour and opinion Isabella which I neither believe nor share.
Again we have a difference of opinion.
IMO the PJ, and Amaral specifically, were completely incompetent and is the reason disgraced ex-cop Amaral was "removed."
And the McCanns with the help of many, many people are the only ones trying to find Madeleine. This has been the case for a very long time because it was clear the PJ gave up long ago - thanks to disgraced ex-cop Amarals incompetence.

It's very telling "apart from the incompetent PJ" when you consider that everyone who has met the McCanns, especially all the people who spent a lot of time with them in the weeks following Madeleine's disapearance fully support and believe in them.

No offence but i disagree with everything you have put.


No offence but..you think every one lies except the McCanns. Which is laughable.

Firstly Clarence Mitchell leaked lies..they tried to make the Portugese police look as stupid as they could. No wonder the Pjs got mad..if it was even indeed the Pjs even leaking it..which i seriously wonder about sometimes

The Express were not found guilty of printing lies. They settled out of court because it was cheaper. The press complaints committee recently wanted to know why they went for money and not trying to get the truth put in the papers..go and figure..

It is not rumour about the woman at the Moroccan petrol station coming from Leicester. It is not rumour about JM being harassed by Metado. And you didnt know about Martin Smith saying the guy he saw looked like Gerry? what a surprise.

Yes Jane Tanners story DID change. To start with she was telling our papers she saw a guy carrying something in a blanket that COULD have been a child. Weeks later she said it was definetly a little girl with pyjamas on that resembled Madeleines. Now whether it was in the report i dont know but she told our papers that and thats a fact. As for Wilson..yes he and Gerry said that they did not see Tanner where she alleges she was.

As for Amaral..you may think hes a disgraced cop. However..most of Portugal appear to be rather proud of him. I dont think hes a disgraced cop at all. In reality the only people who think that are people who think the McCanns are innocent. The people who are

scared of the truth coming out.

Martin Smith said .. he was going home between 9.50 and 11 pm...and that he saw the guy carrying the child. He said this guy looked like Gerry. Amaral was going to have him called over..and then lost his job. Then Smiths story changed after the visit from Metado so go and figure.

And again - ive never seen any indication of the McCanns trying to find there daughter. Ive seen indication of them trying to get money..and plenty of it but ..

Btw why do you put so much stock in the report..if you dont trust the pjs? Most of the pjs were very supportive of Amaral in fact.

And no its not telling that people like the Payne support them. Not at all. They had every reason to support the McCanns. There own livelihoods were at risk cos of it.

MOO

april4sky
03-21-2009, 03:21 AM
No offence but i disagree with everything you have put. No worries Isabella.

No offence but..you think every one lies except the McCanns. Which is laughable.
Firstly Clarence Mitchell leaked lies..they tried to make the Portugese police look as stupid as they could. No wonder the Pjs got mad..if it was even indeed the Pjs even leaking it..which i seriously wonder about sometimesThe PJ didn't need any help - they did that all by themselves. :doh:

The Express were found not guilty of printing lies. In fact they settled out of court because it was cheaper. The press complaints committee recently wanted to know why they went for money and not trying to get the truth put in the papers..go and figure..
It's absolutely untrue that the Express were found not guilty of printing many lies. IN FACT they admitted their guilt and apologised on their front page - along with other newspapers guilty of doing the same thing.
Living in the UK i'm surprised you didn't know this.

And the press wouldn't have settled out of court if they were innocent - In fact they, along with the others only settled out of court because it would have cost them a lot more to have gone to court. They cut their losses!!

It is not rumour about the woman at the Moroccan petrol station coming from Leicester. It is not rumour about JM being harassed by Metado. And you didnt know about Martin Smith saying the guy he saw looked like Gerry? what a surprise.
Except for Martin smith these are rumours!

And yes :) I did know Martin Smith said he thought the man looked like Gerry McCann.
I also know it states in the final report the man he saw couldn't have been Gerry McCann as it was confirmed he was at the Tapas bar at the same time of the reported sighting - So no Isabella, no surprise.

And because of the timing it could very well have been the abductor he saw with Madeleine.

Yes Jane Tanners story DID change. To start with she was telling our papers she saw a guy carrying something in a blanket that COULD have been a child. Weeks later she said it was definetly a little girl with pyjamas on that resembled Madeleines. Now whether it was in the report i dont know but she told our papers that and thats a fact. As for Wilson..yes he and Gerry said that they did not see Tanner where she alleges she was.
Jane Tanner did not contradict her statement - the PJ and the press put out lots of missinformation about her and others.

And it's not unusual for people engrosed in a conversation together to not notice if someone walks by them.
As for Amaral..you may think hes a disgraced cop. However..most of Portugal appear to be rather proud of him. I dont think hes a disgraced cop at all.
We obviously disgree about disgraced ex-cop Amaral - No worries.
In reality the only people who think that are people who think the McCanns are innocent. The people who are
scared of the truth coming out.
Oh give me a break Isabella - I would love for the truth to come out - Believe me you can't want that any more than I do!!

Martin Smith said .. he was going home between 9.50 and 11 pm...and that he saw the guy carrying the child. He said this guy looked like Gerry. Amaral was going to have him called over..and then lost his job. Then Smiths story changed after the visit from Metado so go and figure.
Read the final report - Disgraced ex-cop Amaral knows very well that Martin Smiths statement was fully checked out.
Amaral lied to make money out of Madeleine - Simple as that!

And again - ive never seen any indication of the McCanns trying to find there daughter. Ive seen indication of them trying to get money..and plenty of it but .I have heard this claim before - Sorry but I thought it nonsence then and I think it nonsence now.

Btw why do you put so much stock in the report..if you dont trust the pjs? Most of the pjs were very supportive of Amaral in fact.Isabella why don't you believe the final report? You seem to have faith in Amaral and the PJ!!

I believe the final report because in that report the PJ couldn't include the "missinformation" they were so fond of. It is in fact a legal document which has to stand up to scrutiny. They couldn't play games with it.

And no its not telling that people like the Payne support them. Not at all. They had every reason to support the McCanns. There own livelihoods were at risk cos of it.
MOOConspiracy theories again!

Isabella
03-21-2009, 10:06 AM
No worries Isabella.
The PJ didn't need any help - they did that all by themselves. :doh:
It's absolutely untrue that the Express were found not guilty of printing many lies. IN FACT they admitted their guilt and apologised on their front page - along with other newspapers guilty of doing the same thing.
Living in the UK i'm surprised you didn't know this.

And the press wouldn't have settled out of court if they were innocent - In fact they, along with the others only settled out of court because it would have cost them a lot more to have gone to court. They cut their losses!!

Except for Martin smith these are rumours!

And yes :) I did know Martin Smith said he thought the man looked like Gerry McCann.
I also know it states in the final report the man he saw couldn't have been Gerry McCann as it was confirmed he was at the Tapas bar at the same time of the reported sighting - So no Isabella, no surprise.

And because of the timing it could very well have been the abductor he saw with Madeleine.

Jane Tanner did not contradict her statement - the PJ and the press put out lots of missinformation about her and others.

And it's not unusual for people engrosed in a conversation together to not notice if someone walks by them.
We obviously disgree about disgraced ex-cop Amaral - No worries.
Oh give me a break Isabella - I would love for the truth to come out - Believe me you can't want that any more than I do!!

Read the final report - Disgraced ex-cop Amaral knows very well that Martin Smiths statement was fully checked out.
Amaral lied to make money out of Madeleine - Simple as that!
I have heard this claim before - Sorry but I thought it nonsence then and I think it nonsence now.
Isabella why don't you believe the final report? You seem to have faith in Amaral and the PJ!!

I believe the final report because in that report the PJ couldn't include the "missinformation" they were so fond of. It is in fact a legal document which has to stand up to scrutiny. They couldn't play games with it.
Conspiracy theories again!

Duh Jane Tanner gave interviews to the British media in her home...it was NOT rumours or the pjs lieing jeez. They cant be blamed for something that came out of her mouth when she wasnt even in Portugal with the pjs.


As for the Express..they admitted it was cheaper to settle out of court because of the costs involved. And yes ofc i know the official statement also. But i also know what there lawyer said so.. Compared with the costs of compensation normally given out - the payment to the McCanns was pretty small and apparently less than what they made for selling the extra copies so i doubt they care.

You keep calling Amaral disgraced ex cop. Again..to be honest hes only disgraced to a very few people.

Again..as ive said several times Martin Smith changed his story after the visit from Metado.

It is NOT a rumour that the woman who supposedly saw Madeleine in Morocco came from Leicester. Its a fact.

Im curious why everyone but the McCanns and there friends are liars or disgraced? Im sure Mr Amaral didnt leave his children so he could go drinking for hours some distance away.


Pretty disgusting behaviour for Doctors IMO

What i would like at this point ( tho i think its way to late ) is for the FBI to investigate this case. And no interference from Gordon Brown or anyone else.

april4sky
03-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Duh Jane Tanner gave interviews to the British media in her home...it was NOT rumours or the pjs lieing jeez. They cant be blamed for something that came out of her mouth when she wasnt even in Portugal with the pjs.

As for the Express..they admitted it was cheaper to settle out of court because of the costs involved. And yes ofc i know the official statement also. But i also know what there lawyer said so.. Compared with the costs of compensation normally given out - the payment to the McCanns was pretty small and apparently less than what they made for selling the extra copies so i doubt they care.

You keep calling Amaral disgraced ex cop. Again..to be honest hes only disgraced to a very few people.

Again..as ive said several times Martin Smith changed his story after the visit from Metado.

It is NOT a rumour that the woman who supposedly saw Madeleine in Morocco came from Leicester. Its a fact.

Im curious why everyone but the McCanns and there friends are liars or disgraced? Im sure Mr Amaral didnt leave his children so he could go drinking for hours some distance away.
Pretty disgusting behaviour for Doctors IMO

What i would like at this point ( tho i think its way to late ) is for the FBI to investigate this case. And no interference from Gordon Brown or anyone else.I'm well aware Jane Tanner gave an interview but she didn't discuss her statement due to Portuguese secrecy laws. At no time did she contradict anything in her statement.

The Express admitted they were GUILTY Arabella.
Check out the amount they had to pay the McCanns - it was a LOT more than you obviously think.
And I keep calling Amaral a disgraced ex-cop because thats exactly what he is.

The woman in Morroco may well have come from Leicester. :) Either way she was trying to help.

And who knows what the disgraced ex-cop Amaral gets up to, after all he is on trial on criminal charges.
I believe he's also been accused of wife beating.

Though I don't like it "as I have said many times" baby listening is not illegal as i'm sure you are well aware - being in the UK.
The McCanns made what turned out to be a tragic error of judgement IMO.

And I would like Madeleine found - and the truth to come out for Madeleine and her family.

Salem
03-21-2009, 01:48 PM
Nice discussion guys! I really like seeing the back and forth on your respective opinions. :)

Salem

Isabella
03-21-2009, 02:44 PM
I'm well aware Jane Tanner gave an interview but she didn't discuss her statement due to Portuguese secrecy laws. At no time did she contradict anything in her statement.

The Express admitted they were GUILTY Arabella.
Check out the amount they had to pay the McCanns - it was a LOT more than you obviously think.
And I keep calling Amaral a disgraced ex-cop because thats exactly what he is.

The woman in Morroco may well have come from Leicester. :) Either way she was trying to help.

And who knows what the disgraced ex-cop Amaral gets up to, after all he is on trial on criminal charges.
I believe he's also been accused of wife beating.

Though I don't like it "as I have said many times" baby listening is not illegal as i'm sure you are well aware - being in the UK.
The McCanns made what turned out to be a tragic error of judgement IMO.

And I would like Madeleine found - and the truth to come out for Madeleine and her family.

Jane Tanner did change her description of the "abductor". Im sorry if you didnt see if but..she DID. Maybe you just missed it for all i know but the description she gave DID change over some weeks. Maybe you didnt read the articles I have no idea.

Secondly my name is Isabella not Aarabella. Yes i know what they was paid. And compared with other stories that amount IS relatively low for our media. Sorry if you disagree but it is what it is. Likewise..the payment for the friends...like 50k each was peanuts. Yes a statement was issued saying sorry. However..the editor also said before the statement was issued that it was cheaper to settle out of court.Not just that it was also said they said they was making the "poor parents suffer more" by dragging them through the courts. The barristers etc would by far have cost more than the money the McCanns were paid so from there point it made business sense and most people understand this. Most people here understand the McCanns were trying to make money and shut our press up.

Regarding your allegations of Amaral being a wife beater? Do you have any proof of that? Because to accuse someone of that is pretty bad with no proof. His wife was very supportive of him and was upset with what her family was put through because of the McCanns. Again i understand this. Her husband was simply doing a job he had done for many years..and was well respected and known for being a hard worker. But his reputation..along with the FSS..the dogs...Leicestershire Police..our media. our prime minister and everyone elses for that matter went down the drain because of this couple and there friends. You stated that he made money from the book..well..so did a lot of other people make money..and because of the events in Portugal he lost his job and was ridiculed to make the McCanns look better so i dont blame him for doing the book. He had a family to support, and unlike the McCanns he takes care of his family.

However much you want to trash Amaral and call him the disgraced cop the simple FACT of the matter is - its not Amarals fault that Madeleine went missing that night. It was her PARENTS fault. Even knowing that she had cried for hours the night previously while they had been out drinking and had been told by the resort manager not to leave them alone again..the very next night they went out AGAIN leaving these kids alone. And I have no idea what your trying to imply..that saying im British i would k now its not illegal to have baby listening? Er the simple fact is....its not considered acceptable to go out for the evening..several nights running to go DRINKING and leave your children on there own for hours. Its called NEGLECT. And..either as a result of something they did or an accident whilst they was out ..OR her being kidnapped...it could only happen by THEIR actions. Had they in this country, gone out several nights running and left there babies on there own they probably would have ben removed fr om there care.

As for wanting the truth to come out for her family - i have no doubt whatsoever that her family know what the truth is already.:furious:

MOO

Texana
03-21-2009, 07:05 PM
We call Maddie a "baby" but in truth she was almost four years old. You might justify baby listening when you have an actual baby who can't get out of a crib, but with two year olds and a four year old who can get up and get into trouble, it is simply unthinkable. Many things that are legal (especially in foreign countries) are not defensible. I'm pretty sure my teenager can drink margararitas til she passes out in Cancun, but that doesn't mean I okay it as a parent.

But let's go with the baby listening argument as legal. Let's say the McCanns felt they truly were doing exactly the same thing, and doing an even better job as parents then as paid resort employees.

So, knowing that the baby listening process allowed their child to be abducted--knowing that there was at least one vile kidnapper that would take a beautiful child from her parents and family--why would the McCanns not speak out against the practice now? Why have not they spent at least a minimum bit of their considerable public appearances and "voice" to say that the practice should be banned?

After all, there could be copy cat kidnappers out there. And, if their story is true, at least ONE uncaught kidnapper who could try this again.

Every day I read articles about parents who are speaking out against accepted practices because they resulted in the death of their children. A common one in the States has been death from alcoholic poisoning at fraternity initiations. What do the parents say? That basically while everyone thinks this is a safe, accepted, traditional practice that it is not worth the death of their son or anyone else's. I could go on and on with examples.

I find the fact that the McCanns did not speak out against the babylistening practice to be like the dog barking in the night. It is not that the dog barked; it's that the dog didn't bark at all.

Isabella
03-21-2009, 07:51 PM
We call Maddie a "baby" but in truth she was almost four years old. You might justify baby listening when you have an actual baby who can't get out of a crib, but with two year olds and a four year old who can get up and get into trouble, it is simply unthinkable. Many things that are legal (especially in foreign countries) are not defensible. I'm pretty sure my teenager can drink margararitas til she passes out in Cancun, but that doesn't mean I okay it as a parent.

But let's go with the baby listening argument as legal. Let's say the McCanns felt they truly were doing exactly the same thing, and doing an even better job as parents then as paid resort employees.

So, knowing that the baby listening process allowed their child to be abducted--knowing that there was at least one vile kidnapper that would take a beautiful child from her parents and family--why would the McCanns not speak out against the practice now? Why have not they spent at least a minimum bit of their considerable public appearances and "voice" to say that the practice should be banned?

After all, there could be copy cat kidnappers out there. And, if their story is true, at least ONE uncaught kidnapper who could try this again.

Every day I read articles about parents who are speaking out against accepted practices because they resulted in the death of their children. A common one in the States has been death from alcoholic poisoning at fraternity initiations. What do the parents say? That basically while everyone thinks this is a safe, accepted, traditional practice that it is not worth the death of their son or anyone else's. I could go on and on with examples.

I find the fact that the McCanns did not speak out against the babylistening practice to be like the dog barking in the night. It is not that the dog barked; it's that the dog didn't bark at all.

I didnt think there was a baby listening service at that resort because it was so spread out? And the fact that Madeleine was crying for hours the other night shows they couldnt hear what there children were doing - either they that or they didnt care because they was drinking. The dumb thing is - and this is what i find so dumb...there was a evening creche there they could have used til 11 pm i think it was and they turned this down. There was also a service where the resort would pay for a local to come to your apartment and look after the children while you went out. Again they turned this down also as they thought there " way of nannying was better because they didnt know the locals". And yet did the McCanns care when these same locals were looking after there children already 5-7 hours per day? Why even take the children on holiday as they obviously didnt want the children with them :(

Was it because the McCanns were too tight to pay for the creche or babysitting services that they left the children on there own? Was it maybe because they wanted to come in later than 11 ( when the creche closed)? Of course they could do as normal families would have done and actually taken the kids out with them for the evening as the kids are welcomed in the bars there. Last year whilst on holiday in France..i couldnt help looking at the little kids dancing enjoying themselves and thinking how much Madeleine and the twins would have loved to have done that instead of being left alone in the bedroom while the parents went out ;(

Either way..they had alternatives and chose not to use them so that they could go out drinking. And because of that Madeleine is either dead or with Paedophiles etc.

Sorry but thats not a mistake in judgement. Its just downright being irresponsible and putting your kids at risk. MOO

Isabella
03-21-2009, 09:14 PM
Tex i have a question for you :)

I am sure like most people you see the video of Eddie and Keeler when they went over Portugal. This video was splashed all over our media and after watching this many people who had thought the McCanns were innocent in fact changed there mind because of it.

Why do you think that someone was willing to risk the reputation of the dogs, FSS, and other parties in this affair?

Barnaby
03-21-2009, 11:05 PM
Isabella, I haven't been here in a while but reading your posts we are both singing from the same hymn sheet. Your posts & points are excellent!

Texana
03-21-2009, 11:09 PM
Tex i have a question for you :)

I am sure like most people you see the video of Eddie and Keeler when they went over Portugal. This video was splashed all over our media and after watching this many people who had thought the McCanns were innocent in fact changed there mind because of it.

Why do you think that someone was willing to risk the reputation of the dogs, FSS, and other parties in this affair?

The dogs have a better reputation than the McCanns'.

Honestly, the evidence of the dogs' alerting is the most incriminating evidence against the McCanns'. Anyone who has not read that in detail, needs to do so immediately. The locations where the dogs alerted and the nature of each dog's training--a logical person cannot see that in any way other than very, very damaging for the McCanns and very sad for Madeleine.

You have to ask yourself; would you believe the actions of trained animals with superior abilities to detect odors, or human beings who left their children alone knowingly while they went out to drink and eat with friends; and who have good reason to lie? Which set of living beings has the reason to lie?

The dogs neither know nor care anything than they sense the odor of death.

scandi
03-22-2009, 02:40 AM
No offence but i disagree with everything you have put.


No offence but..you think every one lies except the McCanns. Which is laughable.

Firstly Clarence Mitchell leaked lies..they tried to make the Portugese police look as stupid as they could. No wonder the Pjs got mad..if it was even indeed the Pjs even leaking it..which i seriously wonder about sometimes

The Express were not found guilty of printing lies. They settled out of court because it was cheaper. The press complaints committee recently wanted to know why they went for money and not trying to get the truth put in the papers..go and figure..

It is not rumour about the woman at the Moroccan petrol station coming from Leicester. It is not rumour about JM being harassed by Metado. And you didnt know about Martin Smith saying the guy he saw looked like Gerry? what a surprise.

Yes Jane Tanners story DID change. To start with she was telling our papers she saw a guy carrying something in a blanket that COULD have been a child. Weeks later she said it was definetly a little girl with pyjamas on that resembled Madeleines. Now whether it was in the report i dont know but she told our papers that and thats a fact. As for Wilson..yes he and Gerry said that they did not see Tanner where she alleges she was.

As for Amaral..you may think hes a disgraced cop. However..most of Portugal appear to be rather proud of him. I dont think hes a disgraced cop at all. In reality the only people who think that are people who think the McCanns are innocent. The people who are

scared of the truth coming out.

Martin Smith said .. he was going home between 9.50 and 11 pm...and that he saw the guy carrying the child. He said this guy looked like Gerry. Amaral was going to have him called over..and then lost his job. Then Smiths story changed after the visit from Metado so go and figure.

And again - ive never seen any indication of the McCanns trying to find there daughter. Ive seen indication of them trying to get money..and plenty of it but ..

Btw why do you put so much stock in the report..if you dont trust the pjs? Most of the pjs were very supportive of Amaral in fact.

And no its not telling that people like the Payne support them. Not at all. They had every reason to support the McCanns. There own livelihoods were at risk cos of it.

MOO


Great post Isabella and thanks for reminding us of the tragedy that has happened right in front of our eyes.

I don't know what is happening in the case now. I took a little break because the stalemate of Injustice was tagging me at my heels. But I do know one thing.

Madeleine did not deserve what befell her. And NO ONE in the T10, yes I believe 10, did anything out of their way to search for her. They were the cowardly group who stayed mostly in their rooms and waited it out, followed the news and did what they had to do to stay ahead of the investigators on the job. If it had not been for the first piece of SOL investigative journalism in the case that gave us the names of the players we would have waited much longer to even start to put the truth together.

It is the testament to the life of one little girl who speaks for all other children who have been so outrageously neglected and forgotton to someone else's gain.

I was reminded of that tonight when I listened to Spudgun's still amazing video, after all this time. 'The Real Madeleine McCann Story'. Thanks again Spudgun for going out on a limb to tell it like it happened.

His video always gives me pause and grounds me in the case again. God Bless little Madeleine wherever she is tonight. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/per/gr/integr/hearts_1.gif

Scandi



http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q

april4sky
03-22-2009, 04:08 AM
Jane Tanner did change her description of the "abductor". Im sorry if you didnt see if but..she DID. Maybe you just missed it for all i know but the description she gave DID change over some weeks. Maybe you didnt read the articles I have no idea.
Sorry Isabella but I don't believe she did. She couldn't discuss her evidence due to Portuguese secrecy laws. Which brings us back to the PJ and press!!
Perhaps you can provide links?

Secondly my name is Isabella not Aarabella. Yes i know what they was paid. And compared with other stories that amount IS relatively low for our media. Sorry if you disagree but it is what it is. Likewise..the payment for the friends...like 50k each was peanuts. Yes a statement was issued saying sorry. However..the editor also said before the statement was issued that it was cheaper to settle out of court.Not just that it was also said they said they was making the "poor parents suffer more" by dragging them through the courts. The barristers etc would by far have cost more than the money the McCanns were paid so from there point it made business sense and most people understand this. Most people here understand the McCanns were trying to make money and shut our press up.

Sorry "Isabella" :)
You said the press were not found guilty - No matter how you choose to spin it we both know they admitted their guilt.
It cost them dearly too - and no not peanuts!
And it's unpresidented to get an apology on the front page of one newspaper - let alone four.

Because to accuse someone of that is pretty bad with no proof.
Absolutely agree with you!!
To accuse anyone of anything is bad without proof - And this applies to the McCanns too. :)

And if you read my post again Isabella you will see I did not "accuse" Amaral.
I wonder why you chose to ignore my other comment about Amaral - the fact that the disgraced ex-cop is on trial on criminal charges.

Er the simple fact is....its not considered acceptable to go out for the evening..several nights running to go DRINKING and leave your children on there own for hours. Its called NEGLECT.
From the report....Prosecuter Mr Magalhaes explains his decision.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...irst-time.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2505052/Madeleine-McCann-E-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html)

In their 58 page report, prosecutors Jose de Magalhaes and Joao Melchior Gomes said:

Mr Magalhaes defended the McCanns' decision to leave their children alone in the apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

There was speculation that the couple may be charged with "abandonment", which can incur a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

But he said Mr and Mrs McCann had not thought their children were in any danger when they left Madeleine and her younger twin siblings.

"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," he wrote.

"They could not predict that the resort where they had chosen to spend a few days holiday would leave the lives of any of their children in danger.
"It was located in a quiet place, where the majority of residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of crime.

"It seems obvious to us that the crimes of exposure or abandonment can be
eliminated.
****************

Isabella why don't you believe the final report? You seem to have faith in Amaral and the PJ!!

Isabella
03-22-2009, 12:55 PM
Sorry Isabella but I don't believe she did. She couldn't discuss her evidence due to Portuguese secrecy laws. Which brings us back to the PJ and press!!
Perhaps you can provide links?

Sorry "Isabella" :) But you said the press were found innocent - And that was completely wrong.
It cost them dearly too, and not just peanuts - but Millions!
Their reputations were also damaged. And it is unpresidented to get an apology on the front page of a newspaper.
Absolutely!! Which applies to the McCanns too. :)

And if you read my post again Isabella you will see I did not "accuse" Amaral.

From the report....Prosecuter Mr Magalhaes explains his decision.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...irst-time.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2505052/Madeleine-McCann-E-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html)

In their 58 page report, prosecutors Jose de Magalhaes and Joao Melchior Gomes said:

Mr Magalhaes defended the McCanns' decision to leave their children alone in the apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

There was speculation that the couple may be charged with "abandonment", which can incur a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

But he said Mr and Mrs McCann had not thought their children were in any danger when they left Madeleine and her younger twin siblings.

"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," he wrote.

"They could not predict that the resort where they had chosen to spend a few days holiday would leave the lives of any of their children in danger.
"It was located in a quiet place, where the majority of residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of crime.

"It seems obvious to us that the crimes of exposure or

abandonment can be
eliminated.

How do you figure it cost them millions? They got more out of it than they lost because of the increased sales. So many people were buying the paper that wouldnt normally buy it. There reputations were NOT damaged in any shape or form. And im British and i know that for a fact. People dont think less of the paper - they think less of the McCanns for trying to stop everything getting out they can.

Again..about Tanner - you really must be the only person in the world who thinks she didnt change her story. Maybe you didnt read the interview i dont know. Maybe you just so want to stick up for these child neglectors i dont know. But its 100% fact she changed her description of the "egg man". In her interview..shortly after return from Portugal she said she was eaten up by guilt..cos she thought she had seen this guy - she claims she saw a guy..holding something covered by a blanket that MAY have been a child. The description she gave of this guy was that he looked like a egg kinda. Indeed many sites called him the Egg man based on her description. A few weeks later this story changed to yes this guy was definetly carrying a child and wearing pjs that resembled Madeleines which was funny cos to start with she wasnt either sure it was a child. The supposed abductor also morphed into a Portugese looking guy with beige trousers.

I guess its funny how her mind remembers all these things...and how she saw the colour of the pjs..when it was so dark. And regarding your explantion of how Gerry and Wilkins could have not seen JT..someone else claimed that she wasnt there either who was along that path. And again..the waiters claimed she didnt leave the restaurant.

And regarding them leaving the kids on there own. Many Portugese were up in arms about this saying had it been them they would have been fined for leaving there kids. Sorry but whatever way you look at it - most parents would never leave there children in a room on there own for hours..while they went out drinking when there child sleptwalk and there was pools etc outside. I simply dont get how anyone can defend them doing that. Not only that..they knew one of the children had spent hours crying for them another n ight..so how can anyone say they thought there would be no problems AFTER the resort manager had told them NOT to leave there children alone.

Texana
03-22-2009, 06:39 PM
I
Either way..they had alternatives and chose not to use them so that they could go out drinking. And because of that Madeleine is either dead or with Paedophiles etc.

Sorry but thats not a mistake in judgement. Its just downright being irresponsible and putting your kids at risk. MOO

Exactly. They said they didn't want the children in the care of "strangers" but the evening creche and the evening babysitters were the same staff members that watched the children during the day.

I've always thought they just wanted the children to be asleep when they finished up their recreation. They did not want to mess with having the children wake up after taking them from the evening creche or any issues with having a sitter call them, etc, because the children were crying.

And of course Jane Tanner's story changed. That's why there was no public release of a definite face and features for months. She remembered more supposedly with the aid of a "hypnotherapist."

april4sky
03-22-2009, 10:01 PM
Isabella I notice, like some other McCann haters you have selected amnesia and ignore any part of a post you don’t wish to deal with.

You make a lot of wild and wrong accusations without any confirmation. :waitasec:

This statement you made earlier would be a credit to you if you actually meant it - and followed it yourself ….. Because to accuse someone of that is pretty bad with no proof.
And NO there is no proof Isabella - Check out the Final report. :)

Don't work too hard on a reply because I won't be responding. It's obvious you don't answer questions you either can't or don't like.

Isabella
03-22-2009, 11:01 PM
Isabella I notice, like some other McCann haters you have selected amnesia and ignore any part of a post you don’t wish to deal with.

You make a lot of wild and wrong accusations without any confirmation. :waitasec:

This statement you made earlier would be a credit to you if you actually meant it - and followed it yourself …..
And NO there is no proof Isabella - Check out the Final report. :)

Don't work too hard on a reply because I won't be responding. It's obvious you don't answer questions you either can't or don't like.

Excuse me? Your the one who accused Mr Amaral of beating his wife with absolutely no foundation whatsoever. A man your against because he wanted the truth about what happened to Madeleine and suspected along with so many others that the parents were inbvolved.

I am not a McCann hater. I do not like people such as the parents who neglect there children so they can have a good time. For the life of me i dont get why someone would go through IVF and then treat there children the way the McCanns did. I dont understand how any one could condone there behaviour.

I can answer any question. Thats not a problem. What I DO find impossible..is when people argue about facts that were well documented at the beginning of this case and deny they happened because IMO it suits there agenda to ignore those facts MOO

Isabella
03-22-2009, 11:10 PM
Great post Isabella and thanks for reminding us of the tragedy that has happened right in front of our eyes.

I don't know what is happening in the case now. I took a little break because the stalemate of Injustice was tagging me at my heels. But I do know one thing.

Madeleine did not deserve what befell her. And NO ONE in the T10, yes I believe 10, did anything out of their way to search for her. They were the cowardly group who stayed mostly in their rooms and waited it out, followed the news and did what they had to do to stay ahead of the investigators on the job. If it had not been for the first piece of SOL investigative journalism in the case that gave us the names of the players we would have waited much longer to even start to put the truth together.

It is the testament to the life of one little girl who speaks for all other children who have been so outrageously neglected and forgotton to someone else's gain.

I was reminded of that tonight when I listened to Spudgun's still amazing video, after all this time. 'The Real Madeleine McCann Story'. Thanks again Spudgun for going out on a limb to tell it like it happened.

His video always gives me pause and grounds me in the case again. God Bless little Madeleine wherever she is tonight. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/per/gr/integr/hearts_1.gif

Scandi



http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=ZRvgK6M2_7Q


Hey there :)

I will be honest and admit i used to be a big supporter of the McCanns - and then i saw that video a year ago now by Spudgun - and that videa made me see things in a different light. Its so compelling and really makes you think.

You said about the T10. Who do you think the 10th person could be? I guess you have read the rumours about the McCanns and there friends? I know a lot think it could have been someone for DW but i dont know. It wouldnt entirely surprise me if someone fr om our government was there and thats what all the protecting was actually about. MOO

Isabella
03-22-2009, 11:27 PM
I suppose one question I have - i keep seeing the question "Have you read the report?". How many of you believe the report in its entirety and how many think it was adapted to get the McCanns off of any potential charges?

scandi
03-22-2009, 11:32 PM
Isabella I notice, like some other McCann haters you have selected amnesia and ignore any part of a post you don’t wish to deal with.

You make a lot of wild and wrong accusations without any confirmation. :waitasec:

This statement you made earlier would be a credit to you if you actually meant it - and followed it yourself …..
And NO there is no proof Isabella - Check out the Final report. :)

Don't work too hard on a reply because I won't be responding. It's obvious you don't answer questions you either can't or don't like.


Hi April, You know there was pertinent info left out of the Final Report on purpose.

Texana
03-23-2009, 12:17 AM
Hi April, You know there was pertinent info left out of the Final Report on purpose.

Indeed.

And to label anyone as "McCann hater..." I don't think that finding the McCanns in some way culpable for what happened to their child (either accidental death or abduction) qualifies anyone as "hater." It is what it is.

The McCanns used singularly poor judgment for people who should have had better judgment, by their education, than anyone else. As doctors, they would have had training in accidental injuries to children. I am sure that the doctors in Great Britain go through a round of emergency room duty as part of their training same as any other first world country. I knew someone who had a master's in nursing and was the manager of a hospital emergency room and I will never forget that she told me she would never have a swimming pool, balloons, or a trampoline at her home--just based on the injuries she saw. I am sure the McCanns in their training as physicians saw more than one example of what can happen to a child left unsupervised.

It is not hating anyone to find it incredulous that the McCanns chose to leave their very young children unsupervised. Whatever scenario you believe, it ended badly for Madeleine McCann.

And yet, the McCanns defend their decision to this day.

If the McCanns aren't loved and respected, that is their own fault. Natural consequences.

april4sky
03-23-2009, 01:50 AM
Hi April, You know there was pertinent info left out of the Final Report on purpose.Hi scandi,

Is this just another wild statement without any basis in fact?

Or maybe part of the conspiricy theories. :crazy:

Have a nice day. :)

scandi
03-23-2009, 02:17 AM
Hi scandi,

Is this just another wild statement without any basis in fact?

Or maybe part of the conspiricy theories. :crazy:

Have a nice day. :)


April, every poster makes their own determination of the case on what they have read. That is not a wild statement but was stated from one of the persons who wrote a book on the case as I remember. I'd have to go back and research it.

Except for the last month or so I have studied this case intently from day 1. I could give you a long list of reasons why I feel there is culpability on the parents part to cover up Madeleine's death for some greater benefit.

But I see no reason to do that here. You have your mind made up they are innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and nothing that I can see will change that. That is not a bad thing and I totally respect your seeing things as you do and sticking to your guns.

BTW, did you ever see the video of the interview they gave on camera where they were distraught and so sad. And when they thought the camera was off they started laughing together as they removed their mikes, and then suddenly blip, the camera went dead? It was long into the case but a reminder of the constant two faced people they were. I read several accounts how they changed from sad to happy like that from reporters who worked the case.

Something will happen when we least expect it and I feel that with all my heart. We both want the same thing I think April, and that is Justice for Madeleine and the legal punishment for whoever is responsible for her disappearance off the face of the earth.

april4sky
03-23-2009, 03:10 AM
April, every poster makes their own determination of the case on what they have read. That is not a wild statement but was stated from one of the persons who wrote a book on the case as I remember. I'd have to go back and research it.

Except for the last month or so I have studied this case intently from day 1. I could give you a long list of reasons why I feel there is culpability on the parents part to cover up Madeleine's death for some greater benefit.

But I see no reason to do that here. You have your mind made up they are innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and nothing that I can see will change that. That is not a bad thing and I totally respect your seeing things as you do and sticking to your guns.

BTW, did you ever see the video of the interview they gave on camera where they were distraught and so sad. And when they thought the camera was off they started laughing together as they removed their mikes, and then suddenly blip, the camera went dead? It was long into the case but a reminder of the constant two faced people they were. I read several accounts how they changed from sad to happy like that from reporters who worked the case.

Something will happen when we least expect it and I feel that with all my heart. We both want the same thing I think April, and that is Justice for Madeleine and the legal punishment for whoever is responsible for her disappearance off the face of the earth.
scandi I have also studied this case from the beginning - and have always tried to separate fact from all of the malicious fiction.

I definately wouldn't accept as truth any of the books published so far about Madeleine. They have been published for one reason only - to make money out of Madeleine for their very questionable authors. Especially disgraced ex-cop Amaral.:crazy:

And yes I saw the video - I also saw there was a break in the recording before you see them laughing.
Who knows how long the break was, what they were responding too, what had been said, even said by whom!
Without all the information it's wrong to make assumptions and attack them.

As for your last paragraph scandi - I really hope your right. :blowkiss:

mysterymax
03-23-2009, 03:14 PM
Is she a relative of the McCann's?

daffodil
03-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Why on earth should she be? Because she has a different opinion to others? Oh dear lol

Texana
03-23-2009, 08:41 PM
The curious thing about the McCanns is that they never display anger or remorse, two very common parts of the complex emotion of grief. Have you ever seen a parent on television, even years after the crime, whose child was killed or abducted and never found? The sense of anger emanating from them is palpable. Even when they talk about forgiving the criminal, there is still a great sense of anger, frustration, and struggle.

I never sense that from the McCanns. They do not display anger to the abductor (they joke instead about Maddie giving her "tuppence worth" or say that they hope she is "well treated.") Watch the videos over and over and you will not see anything directed specifically at Madeleine's abductor--if anything, they sheer away from that. They mention that the important thing is that "a horrible crime has been committed" but they don't actually ever tie that to a person. It's as specific as global warning, in terms of personal involvement or direction.

And why don't they feel that sense of personal violation aimed at a specific person that committed a crime? Why do they direct that personal violation and outrage to the Portuguese police?

Because they are the ones who brought about the chain of events that resulted in Madeleine McCann going "missing." They can't fake an anger at themselves because they simply don't feel the deserve it.

scandi
03-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Indeed.

And to label anyone as "McCann hater..." I don't think that finding the McCanns in some way culpable for what happened to their child (either accidental death or abduction) qualifies anyone as "hater." It is what it is.

The McCanns used singularly poor judgment for people who should have had better judgment, by their education, than anyone else. As doctors, they would have had training in accidental injuries to children. I am sure that the doctors in Great Britain go through a round of emergency room duty as part of their training same as any other first world country. I knew someone who had a master's in nursing and was the manager of a hospital emergency room and I will never forget that she told me she would never have a swimming pool, balloons, or a trampoline at her home--just based on the injuries she saw. I am sure the McCanns in their training as physicians saw more than one example of what can happen to a child left unsupervised.

It is not hating anyone to find it incredulous that the McCanns chose to leave their very young children unsupervised. Whatever scenario you believe, it ended badly for Madeleine McCann.

And yet, the McCanns defend their decision to this day.

If the McCanns aren't loved and respected, that is their own fault. Natural consequences.

scandi I have also studied this case from the beginning - and have always tried to separate fact from all of the malicious fiction.

I definately wouldn't accept as truth any of the books published so far about Madeleine. They have been published for one reason only - to make money out of Madeleine for their very questionable authors. Especially disgraced ex-cop Amaral.:crazy:

And yes I saw the video - I also saw there was a break in the recording before you see them laughing.
Who knows how long the break was, what they were responding too, what had been said, even said by whom!
Without all the information it's wrong to make assumptions and attack them.

As for your last paragraph scandi - I really hope your right. :blowkiss:


Thanks for your post April.

I would accept what you say about making assumptions based on one incident. Then I think of how it was not an unusual occurance to see them smiling right after a presser. It shows a lack of sincerity IMO. Having seen families in the same situation; the Smarts and Laci's family, little Samantha Runion's mom and Jessica Lunsford's dad - just a few examples of how having a missing child causes great trauma in the family. And like Texana says, they didn't show the normal signs of greiving and dealing with loss.

Kate. She was on the spot, yes. But if she really had nothing to do with Madeleine's plight, why did she lie about the cadavers she said she had contact with at her job and that CC had gone to work with her which is why Eddie alerted to him! Writing a book you would have to have a cup of spiked tea to make that one up IMO :eek:

A couple of weeks after it was let out she said that, mid to late September, there was an article in a small local paper in the town where her clinic was. The link was pulled right away, as you can imagine.

But Kate's boss and 2 fellow employees were all quoted saying it was not in Kate's job description to deal in any way with cadavers. What she said was an untruth and for me it set Kate in a window of light, telling me what she was really about. It wasn't about finding Madeleine. Why would one lie if they were desperately hoping for the return of their lost little girl.


Just a few thoughts. xox

Isabella
03-23-2009, 09:54 PM
scandi I have also studied this case from the beginning - and have always tried to separate fact from all of the malicious fiction.

I definately wouldn't accept as truth any of the books published so far about Madeleine. They have been published for one reason only - to make money out of Madeleine for their very questionable authors. Especially disgraced ex-cop Amaral.:crazy:

And yes I saw the video - I also saw there was a break in the recording before you see them laughing.
Who knows how long the break was, what they were responding too, what had been said, even said by whom!
Without all the information it's wrong to make assumptions and attack them.

As for your last paragraph scandi - I really hope your right. :blowkiss:


I suppose two things i dont understand from your post

You say you have followed the case from the beginning and yet you didnt know something so big as the "only" witness to the crime having changed her story several times.

You say about seperating malicious fiction yet you seem to talk great delight in repeatedly calling Amaral a disgraced cop. To be honest i think its only the McCann supporters who even think that. Amaral was in one heck of a situation. A young girl went missing on his "patch" and the parents and there friends not only didnt seem to want to try and find her but they wouldnt answer all the questions asked of them. Not only that he had a situation where none of the stories were allegedly consistent with each other. They didnt even the proper time lines for when these checks supposedly happened or whether the door was locked or unlocked. He then had the situation where politicians from another country were getting involved and was threatened that he would be sued if he didnt release the photofit of the "eggman". In addition the guy had the childs parents spokesperson trashing them to the country where the little girl come from. It was never about Amaral and its sad if the McCann supporters dont see that. If the McCanns had been holidaying in America the FBI would be trashed to pieces - if it was in Australia the cops there would have got trashed. Anyone but the McCanns. MOO

Incidentally - would you buy a book by the McCanns or there friends? The last known people to see Madeleine and who have never been able to get there story straight?

Isabella
03-23-2009, 09:57 PM
Thanks for your post April.

I would accept what you say about making assumptions based on one incident. Then I think of how it was not an unusual occurance to see them smiling right after a presser. It shows a lack of sincerity IMO. Having seen families in the same situation; the Smarts and Laci's family, little Samantha Runion's mom and Jessica Lunsford's dad - just a few examples of how having a missing child causes great trauma in the family. And like Texana says, they didn't show the normal signs of greiving and dealing with loss.

Kate. She was on the spot, yes. But if she really had nothing to do with Madeleine's plight, why did she lie about the cadavers she said she had contact with at her job and that CC had gone to work with her which is why Eddie alerted to him! Writing a book you would have to have a cup of spiked tea to make that one up IMO :eek:

A couple of weeks after it was let out she said that, mid to late September, there was an article in a small local paper in the town where her clinic was. The link was pulled right away, as you can imagine.

But Kate's boss and 2 fellow employees were all quoted saying it was not in Kate's job description to deal in any way with cadavers. What she said was an untruth and for me it set Kate in a window of light, telling me what she was really about. It wasn't about finding Madeleine. Why would one lie if they were desperately hoping for the return of their lost little girl.


Just a few thoughts. xox


Kate was a locum. All that means is she fills in for a DR for a few days or so if there ill or on holidays. She would be based at the surgery. Even IF someone died - no way would the body be in the surgery long enough for any items to be hit on by a cadavar dog. It just doesnt work that way.

As for emotion theres just two times ive really seen emotion from these people. Firstly when Gerry came out the police station that night. To me he looked totally shocked like he had been told something he didnt expect. Secondly was when he landed at East Midlands a few days later - IMO relief knowing he was unlikely to have to go back there.

april4sky
03-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Why on earth should she be? Because she has a different opinion to others? Oh dear lolHi daffodil, :hand:

Your not surprised are you that I am now part of the conspiracy. :laugh:

I often wonder how much of a field day they would have if I said I had been to Leicester, Liverpool, Exeter, Ireland and OMG yes even Portugal.
Damn I haven't been to Scotland. :mad:

scandi
03-23-2009, 10:39 PM
Kate was a locum. All that means is she fills in for a DR for a few days or so if there ill or on holidays. She would be based at the surgery. Even IF someone died - no way would the body be in the surgery long enough for any items to be hit on by a cadavar dog. It just doesnt work that way.

As for emotion theres just two times ive really seen emotion from these people. Firstly when Gerry came out the police station that night. To me he looked totally shocked like he had been told something he didnt expect. Secondly was when he landed at East Midlands a few days later - IMO relief knowing he was unlikely to have to go back there.


Hi Isabella, You are so right IMO. With the way a body is recycled back into Mother Earth, it takes at a minimum of 1 1/2 to 2 hours for the death scent to be sniffed by a human recovery dog. That is a fact, discussed by us to the hilt!

That means to have a death scent on her clothing or CC she would have to go trapesing thru the morgue. And I doubt her clinic even would store a body that long as the county coroner would be called for a pick up to do an autopsy. I think ;}

I just saw way more photos of them laughing then in distress.

Is there anything new in the case? Is Amaral still in trial? xox

gogrannypop
03-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Some folks of higher learning and status think themselves invincible. MO

Isabella
03-23-2009, 11:28 PM
Hi Isabella, You are so right IMO. With the way a body is recycled back into Mother Earth, it takes at a minimum of 1 1/2 to 2 hours for the death scent to be sniffed by a human recovery dog. That is a fact, discussed by us to the hilt!

That means to have a death scent on her clothing or CC she would have to go trapesing thru the morgue. And I doubt her clinic even would store a body that long as the county coroner would be called for a pick up to do an autopsy. I think ;}

I just saw way more photos of them laughing then in distress.

Is there anything new in the case? Is Amaral still in trial? xox

There wouldnt be a morgue at the surgery. Generally if someone dies a Dr is to certify the death and then generally the undertaker will fetch the body. A coroner will someones be called but in this situation ( at a surgery) i think its more likely that the Dr would sign the death certicate and then it would be sent to wherever.

As far as Amaral goes im not entirely sure. I will try and find out ;)

anne11
03-24-2009, 09:50 AM
I have never undertood how her clothes became contaminated by cadavrine (the death smell), for goodness sake she was a part-time GP. The morgue is at the hospital, GP's surgerys do not have morgues.

Isabella
03-24-2009, 10:07 AM
Hey Scandi :)

Weird timing or what? Amaral is in fact court this morning regarding the charges against him.

The lawyer of Leonor Cipriano tried to get the magistrate hearing the case removed last month saying he was biased. The appeals comittee refused this complaint and so the judge will not be removed from the trial. This is not appealable.

Once he was told this he said he would not be going to the trial although he will represent Leonor in writing still.

There was one witness last m onth i believe it was who said that the marks on Leonors face was done on at least two different events. Today there was a an expert from the National Institute for Forensics Medicine who stated that the bruises were from 3 seperate periods - these being 3-4 days old, others that were 8-9 days old and some that were 3 weeks old.

I'll try and post more as the trial continues. One interesting thing I heard yesterday was that Gordon Brown phoned the Leicestershire police several HOURS before Amaral was removed from the case asking whether or not Amaral had actually been removed yet from the case. Really...how did he know before Amaral and why was he getting involved?

Although without a shadow of a doubt I believe Amaral to be innocent regarding Leonor it wouldnt entirely surprise me if hes found guilty just so he can be shut up once and for all.

Incidentally this is about the only country in Europe where you cant buy Amarals book - so go and figure.

rashomon
03-24-2009, 02:28 PM
The dogs have a better reputation than the McCanns'.

Honestly, the evidence of the dogs' alerting is the most incriminating evidence against the McCanns'. Anyone who has not read that in detail, needs to do so immediately. The locations where the dogs alerted and the nature of each dog's training--a logical person cannot see that in any way other than very, very damaging for the McCanns and very sad for Madeleine.

You have to ask yourself; would you believe the actions of trained animals with superior abilities to detect odors, or human beings who left their children alone knowingly while they went out to drink and eat with friends; and who have good reason to lie? Which set of living beings has the reason to lie?

The dogs neither know nor care anything than they sense the odor of death.
One of the dogs simply went crazy when approaching the sofa.
What exactly was found behind the sofa? Blood?

Salem
03-24-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm jumping in here, because this infuriates me. Not at you April, but in general. Respectfully snipped ~Sorry Isabella but I don't believe she did. She couldn't discuss her evidence due to Portuguese secrecy laws. Which brings us back to the PJ and press!!
Perhaps you can provide links?

From the report....Prosecuter Mr Magalhaes explains his decision.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...irst-time.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2505052/Madeleine-McCann-E-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html)

In their 58 page report, prosecutors Jose de Magalhaes and Joao Melchior Gomes said:

Mr Magalhaes defended the McCanns' decision to leave their children alone in the apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

There was speculation that the couple may be charged with "abandonment", which can incur a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

But he said Mr and Mrs McCann had not thought their children were in any danger when they left Madeleine and her younger twin siblings.

"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," he wrote.

"They could not predict that the resort where they had chosen to spend a few days holiday would leave the lives of any of their children in danger.
"It was located in a quiet place, where the majority of residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of crime.

"It seems obvious to us that the crimes of exposure or abandonment can be eliminated.
****************


First, Jane Tanner did change her description of the bundleman - she originally said she saw the back of his head and his expensive shoes. That went to a full on description, weeks/months later, of which someone produced a sketch. It is all BS.

As for the final report: It could have been predicted, regardless of what Mr Magalhaes says. AND it is my opinion the McCanns and the whole crew should have been charged with abandonment. The Tanners left their sick child alone????? WTH????

This was a group of Doctors - Doctors typically see many injured children during the course of their training, that were hurt because they were unsupervised. YOU NEVER, EVER leave 2 and 3 year olds alone. For Heaven's Sake. The McCanns and their friends knew this and they did it anyway out of some false sense of security or something. HOWEVER, after the night Maddie cried and cried - that these parents turned their backs on her AGAIN, after being told not to by the staff - is UNSPEAKABLE. How anyone can defend these monsters is beyond me. They don't deserve to have the twins and they didn't deserve Maddie.

There is no excuse for the McCanns behavior, not during the vacation nor after. It is all very sad that Maddie is the one to have suffered the greatest for their selfishness.

Salem

wfgodot
03-24-2009, 06:25 PM
Hello, I'm a newbie here, particularly to this topic and, though I've read much about the case over the last couple of years, I'm sure to be a bit rusty, especially compared to the brilliance the rest of you show regarding the topic. Having made that caveat, I shall limit my maiden appearance on this thread to ten more words, viz., "I assume the parents to be responsible for the disappearance."

Texana
03-24-2009, 06:27 PM
One of the dogs simply went crazy when approaching the sofa.
What exactly was found behind the sofa? Blood?

Eddie is the "cadaver dog" and is specially trained to detect the presence of cadaverine and only that of humans. Keela is specially trained to detect the presence of blood.

Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine (from a human, again, he does not alert to animal or other decomposed organic material) in the living room, behind the sofa.

Keela alerted to the scent of blood in the same spot, behind the sofa, in the living room, close to the outside window.

Blood was found when the tiles behind the sofa were removed and tested. However, the sample was degraded, probably due cleaning chemicals.

The FSS lab was able to check only five markers from that site but all five of those markers matched Madeleine's DNA. There were no markers that could not have come from Madeleine.

Texana
03-24-2009, 06:28 PM
Hello, I'm a newbie here, particularly to this topic and, though I've read much about the case over the last couple of years, I'm sure to be a bit rusty, especially compared to the brilliance the rest of you show regarding the topic. Having made that caveat, I shall limit my maiden appearance on this thread to ten more words, viz., "I assume the parents to be responsible for the disappearance."

Welcome; I'm sure you will have much to add to the conversation!

april4sky
03-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Respectfully snipped...

First, Jane Tanner did change her description of the bundleman - she originally said she saw the back of his head and his expensive shoes. That went to a full on description, weeks/months later, of which someone produced a sketch. It is all BS.

As for the final report: It could have been predicted, regardless of what Mr Magalhaes says. AND it is my opinion the McCanns and the whole crew should have been charged with abandonment.
Salem
Salem this is Jane Tanners statement from the files....

Brown male between 35 and 40, slim, around 1.70m. Very dark hair, thick, long at the neck. (Noticed when the person was seen from the back). He was wearing golden beige cloth trousers (linen type) with a "Duffy" type coat (but not very thick). He was wearing black shoes, of a conventional style and was walking quickly. He was carrying a sleeping child in his arms across his chest. By his manner, the man gave her the impression that he wasn't a tourist.
***********
And an article from the daily record
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/comment/newspaper-opinion/2008/08/06/maddie-police-stand-accused-86908-20685928/ (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/comment/newspaper-opinion/2008/08/06/maddie-police-stand-accused-86908-20685928/)

Today, it is they who have become arguidos - formal suspects - after their files were opened for public scrutiny.
At the very least, they have behaved with staggering indifference. At worst, they stand accused of dereliction of duty.
There are few who will comprehend why they failed to publicise two highly detailed - and strikingly similar - efit pictures of possible suspects.
An English tourist remembers a man watching the McCann flat.
A second Briton provided data for a second efit after spotting a suspicious man in the area in the days before Madeleine disappeared.
Instead of using these efits to secure worldwide attention, the inquiry team issued a ridiculous drawing of the rear view of an egg-shaped head with hair. Why?
Because they didn't want to put out the images of the suspects the two Brits described because of secrecy laws and the fear of prejudicing further investigations.
It beggars belief that the police could even consider that the privacy of an unknown person, who might just be a dangerous child abductor, takes precedence over the life of a missing child.
First, detectives claimed to them that their daughter's DNA had been found in their hire car despite a British scientist's warning days earlier that tests were inconclusive.
Now the efit evidence has come to light.
The police have rightly been condemned by the prosecutors who concluded that their probe "achieved very little". They couldn't even find out whether Madeleine was alive or dead.
******
Salem Jane Tanners description did not change from her statement. The only reason people think she did is because the police released description changed.
No-one knows why the police did not share the description they were given by Jane or by Mr Smith or by any of the other people who came forward with descriptions of people seen around the area - they would have to explain that.
******
Salem I know your "opinions" regarding abandonment and conspiracy theories. But as you know I don't share them.
More importantly neither does the law.

Anything is possible with conspiracy theories! And when you count up the number of people pulled into this particular "conspiracy" it's just a nonesense IMO

Salem
03-24-2009, 11:34 PM
April - we know we are of different opinions. That's okay, probably even a good thing. Normally, I really am not much of a conspiracist (sp?), but in this case, I'll admit I firmly believe that someone or something got to the FSS. I also have great concerns about all of the media contacts that the McCanns had/have, including that Gordon Brown dude.

I am puzzled by this case. I believe the McCanns are involved, based mostly on their actions, what they have said, their body language and their irresponsible actions in leaving the children alone. With that said, I will also admit I have questions. I personally, don't understand how all 7 of the members of the group, not including G&K, could keep quiet, unless they didn't know what really happened.

I did watch the video of the dogs and I understand they are the best dogs in the world at what they do. I firmly believe Maddie's body was in that apartment, on K's clothes and on cuddle cat. Nothing will change my mind about that. The problem with the dogs is that they can't talk and tell us exactly what is what, so the information they provide us with, is not enough in a court of law.

Given all the previous nonsense with the British press regarding this case, it would take more than one article to make me change my mind. I have looked at the final report. I have not read it word for word. BUT what I remember during this entire investigation, was how often the PJ reached out to the British LE and made use of their services. Most of the evidence found and published in the many articles was actually found by British LE. Everyone seems to forget that. So my biggest question is, if there was no evidence against the McCanns, why didn't the British LE say so? To date, it seems to me they have been really, really quiet about this. Early on there were rumors that the British LE felt the McCanns were quilty also, but were required to keep quiet by the British govt. Maybe that is more conspiracy theory, I don't know. What I do know is that I have never seen the British LE defend the McCanns. To me, that says a lot considering how involved they were in the investigation.

Salem

Salem
03-24-2009, 11:38 PM
I'll have to go back an take another look at Tanner's statement. I remember many discussions regarding the map she drew and signed that is part of the final report.

That G&J did not see her is just illogical. I don't beleive that for a minute. It would have been impossible in my mind not to notice her.

Salem

april4sky
03-25-2009, 04:26 AM
Respectfully snipped.... April - we know we are of different opinions. That's okay, probably even a good thing.

Normally, I really am not much of a conspiracist (sp?), but in this case, I'll admit I firmly believe that someone or something got to the FSS. I also have great concerns about all of the media contacts that the McCanns had/have, including that Gordon Brown dude.

I am puzzled by this case.
I will also admit I have questions. I personally, don't understand how all 7 of the members of the group, not including G&K, could keep quiet, unless they didn't know what really happened.

So my biggest question is, if there was no evidence against the McCanns, why didn't the British LE say so? To date, it seems to me they have been really, really quiet about this. Early on there were rumors that the British LE felt the McCanns were quilty also, but were required to keep quiet by the British govt. Maybe that is more conspiracy theory, I don't know. What I do know is that I have never seen the British LE defend the McCanns. To me, that says a lot considering how involved they were in the investigation.

SalemHi Salem,
It wasn't only the FSS who did the forensics. Some things were sent for testing to a Portuguese Lab and they came up with nothing.
IMO there is no way such a highly respected Lab as the FSS would be part of a conspiracy.

The British police could not take an active part in the investigation without the permission of the PJ. They did offer at the very beginning but this wasn't accepted for weeks! And much too late IMO
I’m sure this is on a thread here somewhere as we’ve posted about it before.
And if I remember right it was the McCanns themselves who requested the PJ to allow the British cadaver dogs to search.

Salem in the Natalee Holloway case “I have also posted proof of this here somewhere” there were similar problems with the Aruban police. The FBI could only investigate with the permission of the AP and then only investigate what the AP allowed.
And the FBI have never openly discussed Natalee’s case which seems to be normal policy concerning another countries investigation.
As professionals they must be seen to respect the rights of any country to do their own investigation – Even though they may not always agree with the them.
Besides they wouldn't have had access to all of the findings to be in the position to make a final determination.

And how often do you think a country would accept help if afterwards the one helping chose to put out their own findings - It would be considered interference and probably cause outrage. So IMO never!

In Natalee’s case too there was help from an important politician. Condaleeza Rice actually met Beth Holloway so this isn't unusual when in a crisis abroad, especially concerning children.
****
This is something I read recently which seems to have been forgotten…..

....Early on Portuguese sniffer dogs (not eddie & keela) traced a path from the front door, turned left and left again through between block 5 & 6 and then down the alley. They crossed the road to the car park opposite the tapas and stopped there.

There were two sniffer dogs. Both dogs were taken independently to sniff. They both followed the exact same route.

Interesting where they stopped was the same place someone had reported a white van with someone behaving suspiciously.

Claycat
03-25-2009, 11:10 AM
April4sky, IIRC, there was a white van belonging to a known pedophile that had been seen in the area. He later died. I can't remember his name.

Claycat
03-25-2009, 11:18 AM
This is the one I was thinking of, April4sky. Von Aesch committed suicide, so if he was involved in Madeleine's case, we will probably never know.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2208999.ece

Isabella
03-25-2009, 11:19 AM
April4sky, IIRC, there was a white van belonging to a known pedophile that had been seen in the area. He later died. I can't remember his name.


He was NOT in the area at the time of her "abduction" if you mean the guy who killed Yeleni

Claycat
03-25-2009, 11:29 AM
He was NOT in the area at the time of her "abduction" if you mean the guy who killed Yeleni

I hope that's true, Isabella! I've always believed that Madeleine is still alive! So, I definitely hope that is the case. Thanks!

Isabella
03-25-2009, 11:48 AM
I hope that's true, Isabella! I've always believed that Madeleine is still alive! So, I definitely hope that is the case. Thanks!


I think everyone would like that.

However according to the prosecutor of the case Menezes thats highly unlikely. He stated in a copy of the Portugese press on the 6th August that Madeleine died that evening in the apartment. He said he did not believe that the McCanns killed her but that they were negligent. I assume he came to this conclusion after reading all the files he had. He totally discounted the fact that she was kidnapped.

Isabella
03-25-2009, 11:52 AM
This is the one I was thinking of, April4sky. Von Aesch committed suicide, so if he was involved in Madeleine's case, we will probably never know.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2208999.ece


He was totally discounted from being in the area.

Incidentally...allegations have been made about one of the McCann party by two drs who didnt think his behaviour was right around children. MOO

badhorsie
03-25-2009, 01:53 PM
Respectfully snipped from "April4sky"
It wasn't only the FSS who did the forensics. Some things were sent for testing to a Portuguese Lab and they came up with nothing.
IMO there is no way such a highly respected Lab as the FSS would be part of a conspiracy.


FSS are not above reproach as proven here;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/23/hodgson-forensic-evidence

I am not a conspiracy theorist but the UK Govt. stinks to high heaven, in my work I see cover ups and spin all the time.
There are so may odd things about this case. I would not want to see innocent parents persecuted on forums and elsewhere but IMO there is something very fishy going on here.
How can a couple go on holiday with three children, return with two and it is all just dropped, no proper searches, investigation, mickey mouse PIs, fundraising activities, the only thing that seems to be done is putting up posters and the MCanns were even making people pay for them at first:mad:

rashomon
03-25-2009, 06:12 PM
Eddie is the "cadaver dog" and is specially trained to detect the presence of cadaverine and only that of humans. Keela is specially trained to detect the presence of blood.

Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine (from a human, again, he does not alert to animal or other decomposed organic material) in the living room, behind the sofa.

Keela alerted to the scent of blood in the same spot, behind the sofa, in the living room, close to the outside window.

Blood was found when the tiles behind the sofa were removed and tested. However, the sample was degraded, probably due cleaning chemicals.

The FSS lab was able to check only five markers from that site but all five of those markers matched Madeleine's DNA. There were no markers that could not have come from Madeleine.
Thanks Texana for the info. This evidence could indicate that Madeleine had been dead in the apartment for some time (hidden behind the sofa) before the body was removed. Couple this with the cadaver scent found on Kate McCann's clothes (and also on cuddle cat?) - this is prettty incriminating evidence.

At what time exactly did the McCanns show up at the tapas bar on that night?

At what time was the children's room checked for the first time?

Which of the Tapas Nine did the checking and what did he/she state?

Texana
03-25-2009, 07:29 PM
Thanks Texana for the info. This evidence could indicate that Madeleine had been dead in the apartment for some time (hidden behind the sofa) before the body was removed. Couple this with the cadaver scent found on Kate McCann's clothes (and also on cuddle cat?) - this is prettty incriminating evidence.

At what time exactly did the McCanns show up at the tapas bar on that night?

At what time was the children's room checked for the first time?

Which of the Tapas Nine did the checking and what did he/she state?

Those are the stories that are contradictory. At first the Tapas 9 said they checked hourly; then they changed that to every half hour, then it was every fifteen minutes.

The McCanns have said they arrived at the restaurant at varying times, between 8:30 to almost 9:00.

Yes, times could vary and some details vary as different witnesses to an event tell a story. But the discrepancies and changes are so much more consistent than the facts that don't change. And interestingly enough, the people who are peripheral witnesses (with the exception of Charlotte Pennington the creche employee/Nanny) their stories remain consistent. Jeremy Wilkins has not changed his story about encountering Gerry McCann but never seeing Jane Tanner (whose account places herself in very close vicinity at the same time.)

Another interesting fact about the Tapas 9 party: Many people, including not only the staff of the Mark Warner resort but local citizens as well, were out searching for Madeleine. The Tapas 9 party did not search for her.

According to Jeremy Wilkins' partner Bridget O'Donnell, one of the three men knocked on their door to say that Madeleine had been abducted. Jeremy Wilkins asked if they needed help and was told "There is nothing you can do."

There are no reports of the friends searching the next day either, nor of the McCanns.

This is hugely significant because in those early hours, no one had as yet any reason to suspect the McCanns. And yet no one will testify that any of the party was out searching physically for Madeleine.

If the Tapas party really believed Madeleine had been abducted (and perhaps, logically and understandably, would hope in those early hours that she had just wandered off) why would they ever tell someone "There's nothing you can do?"

Isabella
03-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Respectfully snipped from "April4sky"
It wasn't only the FSS who did the forensics. Some things were sent for testing to a Portuguese Lab and they came up with nothing.
IMO there is no way such a highly respected Lab as the FSS would be part of a conspiracy.


FSS are not above reproach as proven here;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/23/hodgson-forensic-evidence

I am not a conspiracy theorist but the UK Govt. stinks to high heaven, in my work I see cover ups and spin all the time.
There are so may odd things about this case. I would not want to see innocent parents persecuted on forums and elsewhere but IMO there is something very fishy going on here.
How can a couple go on holiday with three children, return with two and it is all just dropped, no proper searches, investigation, mickey mouse PIs, fundraising activities, the only thing that seems to be done is putting up posters and the MCanns were even making people pay for them at first:mad:


This case is just so damn weird. I have never in my life seen anything like it. Compare this case to the Shannon case last year. She was missing what nearly a month? And after the first couple of weeks the story wasnt in the papers hardly. Her parents werent offered ex governement workers for PR people. The media really went to town on the mother ( and quite rightly so IMO) but still..at that time Shannon was " missing" and yet we was being told every little detail about her mother and the guys she had the kids with and people she had allegedly had affairs with. They really went nuts and at that point the media didnt know what really happened - and yet they wasnt stopped from writing malicious things about the family. Just about every media site here had the comments page open so you could post your feelings on them.

Salem i think it was commented on Gordon Brown. Yes he is our Prime Minister. He was NOT elected by us to do this job - we got him foisted on us without an election. I personally believe he will cost Labour the next election. I have always voted Labout..but never again because i cant vote for someone who helps cover kids going missing. And - i think a lot will be the same. Personally i think hes the most unpopular Pm we have ever had and for the record...i think he interfered way to much in this case. And yes ...i think he influenced the outcome of the case. Its kinda strange that Brown knew before Amaral did that he was getting the chop.

I do wish we had the same rights as you guys in America to say as you wanted. But we dont. Or not with regards to thiis matter we dont. Almost immediately after Madeleine went "missing" the parents had her made a ward of court. Firstly this stops a lot of the stories getting out about the families. At one point there was apparently 16 injunctions out to stop stories being printed. IF any of our papers dared to post anything negative they was threatened they would get sued...any negative stories would disappear within hours of them being on any sites..we couldnt post on any comments pages about them...the Mirror did allow it...but that went whoosh in the end also. And then a private forum was made..and that was awesome cos Clarence Mitchell couldnt do anything about that. It is so pathetic on the major sites here like Sky they wont allow comments because they know most of the c ountry will trash the McCanns.

Freedom of speech? Not where the McCanns are concerned. After the story yesterday about the new "appeal" one paper did open the comments page for a few hours. Now the Independent isnt a tabloid and is one of the "posher" papers. This is a saved file from there and yes i realise its hard to read cos they are all together..but there are literally hundreds of comments and there not good. http://www.4shared.com/file/94923595/52e39d26/Independent_Comments.html

Of course the Independent wiped them all clean again lol.

We are the only country in Europe that cant buy Amarals book. Why? What is it there so scared of?

Texana
03-25-2009, 08:14 PM
If you look at the FSS statement about the results of testing on the DNA material found in the blood found in the Renault, it is very significant. They stated that the material could not be conclusively identified as Madeleine.

That was the phrasing. However, what was left out was the significant and incredibly incriminating fact that it could not be ruled out that the DNA was Madeleine's. In fact, 15 out of 19 markers were identified as Madeleine's and the twins were ruled out.

The FSS statement was very bland and general but it cleverly left of the reverse logic that is obvious to anyone--It could not be identified conclusively because of the degraded material but nor could Madeleine be ruled out.

And the chances of the blood coming from anyone else? Less than 1 in 1000.

The McCanns and the Tapas 9 had access to the car. The DNA material was not found in the seat, but in the wheel well where it simply cannot be explained by normal circumstances.

Isabella
03-26-2009, 01:04 AM
Btw you mentioned Charlotte Pennington...firstly i think shes away with the fairies - literally. She is another who changed her story big time and every time she would speak her stories would just get better and better. Of course she was supposedly a drunk which could explain this i guess.

Now as for Jane Tanner from this picture here we can see how unlikely it is that she could have been there and not seen by either Jez or Gerry. http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/Sioux_girl/apt.jpg In addition bearing in mind that she was wearing flip flops these generally make a noise so i find it impossible that they wouldnt have seen or heard her.

My personal opinion is - that because Jez was walking his baby around the apartments and so Gerry was talking to him while Madeleine was taken out of the other entrance by R o B so that Jez wouldnt see anything . MOO

And yea...at one point they claimed they had locked the doors - another time they said they hadnt. They claimed the shutters had been forced open. They hadnt. They claimed the checks were being done every 15 mins - at one point it seemed impossible to work out how anyone could have kidnapped her cos there always appeared to be someone coming or going but of course that wasnt true either. One weird thing for me..i read one article where the McCanns got to the bar at 8.55 and they was the last ones there and yet - in the article Jane Tanner did when she returned to England she said she was devasted cos she was late going to meet her friends and saw someone carrying something that MAY have been a child carried under a blanket. However she wasnt sure it was a child. Now as we all know over the weeks she changed her mind - not only was it now a child but it wore Madelines pyjamas. Regarding the photofits - under the Portugese law if a person is kidnapped they dont print photos as they believe this puts the person at risk. Ok fair enough I dont agree with this but - thats the way they do things. The McCanns after one of there conversations with Gordon Brown said that if the PJS didnt release a picture of this "suspect" they would sue the pjs ( yea yea i know they like threatening to sue). And so the famous egg man picture was published. Now..Aprilsky says that wasnt Tanners fault - however ...if they didnt think this looked like her descriprion WHY did they not complain to the media or to Brown or through Clarence Mitchell saying the picture wasnt accurate?

Incidentally did Gerry ever sue that publication who said he wasnt the father of Madeleiene?

Btw regarding the English police - they was there from the very beginning. However it was a Portugese criminal matter and not a British one so it was only right they should be in charge of the case. It has been reported that the Police in Portugal from the Leicestershire Police agreed with the findings of the Pjs but that certain police at Leicestershire police werent doing as they should have been. Personally i think the Pjs would have done better had they done all investigating themselves and left the British cops out of it - MOO

Salem
03-26-2009, 01:30 AM
Tanner drew a map, which is part of the final report, that clearly shows there is no way she walked by GM and JW and they didn't see her. According to that map, she would have had to be invisible.

The PJ became more "vocal" about the help from the British after the McCanns started saying the PJ was doing nothing. At the time I thought it was a really smart move on the PJ's part, because then none of the evidence could be refuted. Turns out maybe it wasn't so smart after all as the British seem to be much more aware of political pressures.

I wish Maddie would be found, where ever she is and would come home.

Salem

april4sky
03-26-2009, 04:25 AM
This is the one I was thinking of, April4sky. Von Aesch committed suicide, so if he was involved in Madeleine's case, we will probably never know.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2208999.ece
Hi Claycat,

I think the PJ only concluded it wasn't the same man.

This doesn't change the fact that a witness reported seeing the white van parked and someone behaving suspiciously at the same place both dogs lost the scent.

This man was never traced.

april4sky
03-26-2009, 04:55 AM
Respectfully snipped...Tanner drew a map, which is part of the final report, that clearly shows there is no way she walked by GM and JW and they didn't see her. According to that map, she would have had to be invisible.

I wish Maddie would be found, where ever she is and would come home.

SalemHi Salem,

Regarding the Lane and the conspiracy theory.

I think we have been caught up in the would they - wouldn't they - have seen each other saga, and lost sight of the "why" as to their statements.

If as you think they conspired together wouldn't they have agreed to say they saw each other in the lane. That's the only thing that would make sense if they were conspiring! An easy conspiracy to get right.

The fact is they said they didn't all see each other - and the only reason that makes sense is they told the truth. IMO

I agree regarding Madeleine - I wish it too, and the sooner the better.

rashomon
03-26-2009, 05:24 AM
If you look at the FSS statement about the results of testing on the DNA material found in the blood found in the Renault, it is very significant. They stated that the material could not be conclusively identified as Madeleine.

That was the phrasing. However, what was left out was the significant and incredibly incriminating fact that it could not be ruled out that the DNA was Madeleine's. In fact, 15 out of 19 markers were identified as Madeleine's and the twins were ruled out.

The FSS statement was very bland and general but it cleverly left of the reverse logic that is obvious to anyone--It could not be identified conclusively because of the degraded material but nor could Madeleine be ruled out.

And the chances of the blood coming from anyone else? Less than 1 in 1000.

The McCanns and the Tapas 9 had access to the car. The DNA material was not found in the seat, but in the wheel well where it simply cannot be explained by normal circumstances.
Thanks Texana for the info. Do you or others happen to have a link to the FSS statement?

Isabella
03-26-2009, 08:27 AM
Respectfully snipped...Hi Salem,

Regarding the Lane and the conspiracy theory.

I think we have been caught up in the would they - wouldn't they - have seen each other saga, and lost sight of the "why" as to their statements.

If as you think they conspired together wouldn't they have agreed to say they saw each other in the lane. That's the only thing that would make sense if they were conspiring! An easy conspiracy to get right.

The fact is they said they didn't all see each other - and the only reason that makes sense is they told the truth. IMO

I agree regarding Madeleine - I wish it too, and the sooner the better.


Or maybe Gerry was just trying to save himself. I personally think Jez mucked up there plans somewhat. How could Gerry say he saw Jane if Jez didnt and not just that there was another witness who said Jane wasnt there,

As for the only thing that makes sense is that there telling the truth - in actual fact there stories change way to much to be telling the truth. MOO

Isabella
03-26-2009, 11:15 AM
April i have a question because your posts are totally contradicting themselves :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/LgJTMap-1.jpg

So should we believe the yellow route was the correct route which Jane alleged the alleged kidnapper took - or should we believe your post from 220 which states this " This is something I read recently which seems to have been forgotten…..

....Early on Portuguese sniffer dogs (not eddie & keela) traced a path from the front door, turned left and left again through between block 5 & 6 and then down the alley. They crossed the road to the car park opposite the tapas and stopped there.

There were two sniffer dogs. Both dogs were taken independently to sniff. They both followed the exact same route.

Interesting where they stopped was the same place someone had reported a white van with someone behaving suspiciously" ."


Thing is this route ( Marked in red) is entirely different to the one Jane alleges the kidnapper went.

So which version are you actually trying to tell us is the truthful one? If the dogs both sniffed the exact same route - then sorry but Jane is lieing MOO

Salem
03-26-2009, 11:51 AM
Respectfully snipped...Hi Salem,

Regarding the Lane and the conspiracy theory.

I think we have been caught up in the would they - wouldn't they - have seen each other saga, and lost sight of the "why" as to their statements.

If as you think they conspired together wouldn't they have agreed to say they saw each other in the lane. That's the only thing that would make sense if they were conspiring! An easy conspiracy to get right.

The fact is they said they didn't all see each other - and the only reason that makes sense is they told the truth. IMO

I agree regarding Madeleine - I wish it too, and the sooner the better.

Actually April - I think they are lying - either GM or JT. I'm inclined to say it is JT because GM has a witness that was standing there with him - JW. Maybe they just didn't get their story straight? I don't know. What I do know it that Jane Tanner drew a map in her own hand, dated and signed it. That map clearly shows that she walked right by GM & JW, on the same side of the street, on the same sidewalk. They would have had to have seen her.

I agree in that I find it difficult to believe all of the T9 are in on this. But I am certain that at least 4 of them are and maybe the others are just loyal friends that don't know the whole story. However, it seems by now, that at least one of them would grow a conscious (sp?) or, at the very least, begin to question what happened that night.

Why will no one stand up for Maddie? 9 people that couldn't get their stories straight? One (in my opinion) credible witness that tells us that GM & KM did not check their children every 1/2 hour, while the T9 give us such a complicated pattern of coming and going it would have been impossible for Maddie to have been snatched.

Until GM & KM step up to the plate and tell the truth, and say something that would exonerate themselves, I will continue to believe that they know exactly what happened and they are not talking because they don't want to lose the twins or their livelyhoods.

Salem

Salem
03-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Thanks Texana for the info. Do you or others happen to have a link to the FSS statement?

rashomon - check our doc thread. It may be posted in there.

Salem

Isabella
03-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Actually April - I think they are lying - either GM or JT. I'm inclined to say it is JT because GM has a witness that was standing there with him - JW. Maybe they just didn't get their story straight? I don't know. What I do know it that Jane Tanner drew a map in her own hand, dated and signed it. That map clearly shows that she walked right by GM & JW, on the same side of the street, on the same sidewalk. They would have had to have seen her.

I agree in that I find it difficult to believe all of the T9 are in on this. But I am certain that at least 4 of them are and maybe the others are just loyal friends that don't know the whole story. However, it seems by now, that at least one of them would grow a conscious (sp?) or, at the very least, begin to question what happened that night.

Why will no one stand up for Maddie? 9 people that couldn't get their stories straight? One (in my opinion) credible witness that tells us that GM & KM did not check their children every 1/2 hour, while the T9 give us such a complicated pattern of coming and going it would have been impossible for Maddie to have been snatched.

Until GM & KM step up to the plate and tell the truth, and say something that would exonerate themselves, I will continue to believe that they know exactly what happened and they are not talking because they don't want to lose the twins or their livelyhoods.

Salem

Imo Gerry Kate JT R'OB and possibly DP all know what happened.

april4sky
03-26-2009, 09:46 PM
Actually April - I think they are lying - either GM or JT. I'm inclined to say it is JT because GM has a witness that was standing there with him - JW. Maybe they just didn't get their story straight? I don't know. What I do know it that Jane Tanner drew a map in her own hand, dated and signed it. That map clearly shows that she walked right by GM & JW, on the same side of the street, on the same sidewalk. They would have had to have seen her.

I agree in that I find it difficult to believe all of the T9 are in on this. But I am certain that at least 4 of them are and maybe the others are just loyal friends that don't know the whole story. However, it seems by now, that at least one of them would grow a conscious (sp?) or, at the very least, begin to question what happened that night.

Why will no one stand up for Maddie? 9 people that couldn't get their stories straight? One (in my opinion) credible witness that tells us that GM & KM did not check their children every 1/2 hour, while the T9 give us such a complicated pattern of coming and going it would have been impossible for Maddie to have been snatched.

Until GM & KM step up to the plate and tell the truth, and say something that would exonerate themselves, I will continue to believe that they know exactly what happened and they are not talking because they don't want to lose the twins or their livelyhoods.

SalemSalem there is far less chance they didn't get their story straight than there is believing someone couldn't walk by two people engrosed in a conversation, in the dark and for it not to register.

And they are the only ones standing up for Madeleine and the truth.

The only ones who haven't put Madeleine first IMO are those who have knowingly lied about the McCanns and those who are happy to knowingly spread those lies.
And they are the ones wholey responsible for the damage done to the search for Madeleine - and continue to be.
Which if she is still alive is a very strange and cruel way to put Madeleine first. IMO

None of us know if Madeleine isn't alive - And assumptions don't do it for me, and never will.
And before I would condemn the parents of a missing child it would be far more important to me to know I was right than think I was.

If the McCanns are innocent then the cruelty thats been done to the parents of a missing child is not just sad but totally sick.

What we do know is that the final report has cleared them of any wrong doing and I wouldn't want to be part of what has been done, and is still being done to this family, especially after that report.

Isabella
03-26-2009, 10:29 PM
Salem there is far less chance they didn't get their story straight than there is believing someone couldn't walk by two people engrosed in a conversation, in the dark and for it not to register.

And they are the only ones standing up for Madeleine and the truth.

The only ones who haven't put Madeleine first IMO are those who have knowingly lied and those who are happy to knowingly spread those lies.
They are wholey responsible for the damage done to the search for Madeleine - and continue to be.
Which if she is still alive is a very strange and cruel way to put Madeleine first. IMO

None of us know if Madeleine isn't alive - And asumptions don't do it for me and never will.
And before I would condemn the parents of a missing child it would be far more important to me to know I was right than think it.

If the McCanns are innocent then the cruelty thats been done to the parents of a missing child is not just sad but totally sick.

What we do know is that the final report has cleared them of any wrong doing and I wouldn't want to be part of what has been done, and is still being done to this family, especially after that report.

AGAIN i will ask you - you said in your post numbered 22o about the dogs..that they had individually tracked down the same route...and you seem to believe this and yet you seem to believe Tanner. These are DIFFERENT routes so.. ..WHICH do you claim is telling the truth? The women who different people have claimed she was NOT there and who has changed her story or the tracking dogs who quite simply have no reason to lie...and CANT lie. In effect the dogs., Gerry, Jez and i believe there was another witness are all saying Jane is a liar. You say that they didnt get there story straight - well i guess Jez kinda ruined that plan by being there.

As for these people ..are the ones who havent lied and have put her first...well if the McCanns had put her first she wouldnt be wherever she is right now. Again IF the McCanns want to put there daughter first let them go to Praia de Luz and be questioned, and let them have a lie detector test and also do a reconstruction. These are all things that can help in this investigation and would help to clear the McCanns. And you know...because they WONT do these things ( and because of others) people perceive them to be involved with whats happened to there daughter and so are unwilling to spend there tine and money on a wild good chase.

iF these parents..were innocent..and really cared about finding there daughter they would do EVERYTHING possible to find her and not just get someone to put some posters up two years after the event.

As for the McCanns the only trying to find the truth - im sorry but i dont think the McCanns would know the truth if it hit them between the eyes. MOO

Texana
03-26-2009, 10:50 PM
rashomon - check our doc thread. It may be posted in there.

Salem

Yes, check the doc thread. A lot of my links no longer work. I wish I had printed them out, but I didn't estimate the degree to which even favorable interviews would be pulled from the Internet.

You can also try the archives of the British press. The statement from FSS was well publicized at the time.

Texana
03-26-2009, 10:58 PM
On a side note, I think if we are going to grant the McCanns the reasonableness of not believing their child is dead, then we also have to question the reasonableness of why, barely two months after she went missing, Gerry McCann would use words like "sustain a high profile for Madeleine's disappearance in the long term."

There were many statements and evidence of acts that the McCanns were planning far into the future to keep that "high profile."

If your child is missing, in the very early days, can you reasonably plan what you'll do in five or seven months or a year for publicity? Can you plan and organize a balloon release?

The McCanns did. And for what it's worth, I don't think a "balloon release" is something that requires vast amounts of prior planning, scheduling, and advance notice.

Isabella
03-26-2009, 11:08 PM
On a side note, I think if we are going to grant the McCanns the reasonableness of not believing their child is dead, then we also have to question the reasonableness of why, barely two months after she went missing, Gerry McCann would use words like "sustain a high profile for Madeleine's disappearance in the long term."

There were many statements and evidence of acts that the McCanns were planning far into the future to keep that "high profile."

If your child is missing, in the very early days, can you reasonably plan what you'll do in five or seven months or a year for publicity? Can you plan and organize a balloon release?

The McCanns did. And for what it's worth, I don't think a "balloon release" is something that requires vast amounts of prior planning, scheduling, and advance notice.


Within just a few weeks of her going missing they was planning events for the years anniversary - which really gave you hope - not :(

april4sky
03-27-2009, 04:16 AM
AGAIN i will ask you - you said in your post numbered 22o about the dogs..that they had individually tracked down the same route....and you seem to believe this and yet you seem to believe Tanner. These are DIFFERENT routes so.. ..WHICH do you claim is telling the truth?
All were telling the truth. :)

Here you go...Sorry but your drawing looked to me as though they ended in the pool.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/maddietrail.jpg (http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/maddietrail.jpg&target=tlx_picqfob)

This aerial photograph shows the trail that two police sniffer dogs took as they tracked Madeleine's scent on 08 May 2007, at 11:45pm.

Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park - where British holiday-maker Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.

The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the odour of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.

Kate McCann had given the dog team a towel she had used to dry Madeleine after a bath, and they took her scent from that.
*****
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2505052/Madeleine-McCann-E-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz just before their three-year-old daughter went missing.

Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to Madeleine's disappearance.

Mr Flack, a freelance engineer designer from Ilford in Essex, has a holiday home in Praia da Luz, near the McCann's family's apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

On either May 2 or 3 last year – the day Madeleine disappeared – he decided to go for a walk with his partner Christine Dale.
As he neared the McCann's apartment he saw a man near a dirty white van, staring intently at the couple's ground floor veranda.
*******
Isabella we both know about the white van and that it was never traced!

And Madeleine was all over the resort during the holiday so it wouldn't be strange for the dogs to pick up her scent in different directions. They also tracked her scent to a supermarket.

The dogs did track and lose her scent at the car park - and that scent could have been left that night!
And the McCanns didn't have a car at this point.
The scent the dogs followed includes where Jane Tanner says she saw the man carrying a child!

The fact remains there were reports of a white van and that driver has never been traced and cleared.
Whether this particular van was parked in the car park at some point that night- who knows!

Isabella
03-27-2009, 07:52 AM
All were telling the truth. :)

Here you go...Sorry but your drawing looked to me as though they ended in the pool.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/maddietrail.jpg (http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/maddietrail.jpg&target=tlx_picqfob)

This aerial photograph shows the trail that two police sniffer dogs took as they tracked Madeleine's scent on 08 May 2007, at 11:45pm.

Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park - where British holiday-maker Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.

The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the odour of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.

Kate McCann had given the dog team a towel she had used to dry Madeleine after a bath, and they took her scent from that.
*****
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2505052/Madeleine-McCann-E-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz just before their three-year-old daughter went missing.

Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to Madeleine's disappearance.

Mr Flack, a freelance engineer designer from Ilford in Essex, has a holiday home in Praia da Luz, near the McCann's family's apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

On either May 2 or 3 last year – the day Madeleine disappeared – he decided to go for a walk with his partner Christine Dale.
As he neared the McCann's apartment he saw a man near a dirty white van, staring intently at the couple's ground floor veranda.
*******
Isabella we both know about the white van and that it was never traced!

And Madeleine was all over the resort during the holiday so it wouldn't be strange for the dogs to pick up her scent in different directions. They also tracked her scent to a supermarket.

The dogs did track and lose her scent at the car park - and that scent could have been left that night!
And the McCanns didn't have a car at this point.
The scent the dogs followed includes where Jane Tanner says she saw the man carrying a child!

The fact remains there were reports of a white van and that driver has never been traced and cleared.
Whether this particular van was parked in the car park at some point that night- who knows!

Sorry...but i do not like believe Jane Tanner. I will never believe Jane Tanner. I will never beleive the McCanns. And i wish Madeleine had been born to people that would have loved and protected her instead of putting there pleasure first.

april4sky
03-27-2009, 08:41 AM
Sorry...but i do not like believe Jane Tanner. I will never believe Jane Tanner. I will never beleive the McCanns. And i wish Madeleine had been born to people that would have loved and protected her instead of putting there pleasure first.
You have made your "opinions" very clear Isabella....No worries!..everyones entitled to their own opinions.

The trouble comes, as in Madeleines case when opinions get mixed up with the facts.

Isabella
03-27-2009, 09:15 AM
You have made your "opinions" very clear Isabella....No worries!..everyones entitled to their own opinions.

The trouble comes, as in Madeleines case when opinions get mixed up with the facts.

Yes obviously ... people do seem to have a habit of getting mixed up with the facts in this case :D