8 yr old charged with Double Homicide-St. Johns AZ #4

[Salem]

I'm starting a new thread. I will send the mods a note to lock the Thread 3 and I will go get the first 3 threads and post the links here.

Thread #1: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74636&highlight=8-year-old
Thread #2: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75684&page=43
Thread #3: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76097

Salem

[OrdinaryLife]

agreed! and his mother would be shouting it from the rooftops

Even if she wanted to, she can't. There's that nasty little thing holding her back called a Gag Order.

[Salem]

In the two other cases that I have seen where very young children confessed to killing someone, there was never any mention that the children later recanted their confessions. However, in both cases, it was shown through DNA evidence that the children did not commit the killings. Maybe the kids did recant - but the articles I saw did not say that.

And OL - I agree, the gag order does keep important information from us.....

Salem

[Fairy1]

Honestly - I don't believe anyone involved really knows what to do. Nothing about this case is ordinary. I don't think any of the principles can play this "by the book" because there is no book!

[oceanblueeyes]

The gag order in place means his mother cannot discuss the specifics of the crimes themselves. It does not prevent her from proclaiming his innocence, even if she wanted to do so night and day to the media.

In the MS. case that was just aired on TruTV last week where the young boy confessed to murdering his brother in law, he recanted that confession within 4 days, irrc

Thankfully, he was acquitted and his sister sits on death row.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

In the two other cases that I have seen where very young children confessed to killing someone, there was never any mention that the children later recanted their confessions. However, in both cases, it was shown through DNA evidence that the children did not commit the killings. Maybe the kids did recant - but the articles I saw did not say that.

And OL - I agree, the gag order does keep important information from us.....

Salem

But there has been other youthful offenders that did confess to the crime and through DNA evidence and other evidence it was proved that they did commit them.

So we will have to wait and see if the DA has evidence to prove this boy did this crimes, regardless if he confessed or not.



imo

[SoobsinMI]

The gag order in place means his mother cannot discuss the specifics of the crimes themselves. It does not prevent her from proclaiming his innocence, even if she wanted to do so night and day to the media.

imoo

I double checked, because I wanted to be sure, but the gag order is NOT for the victims families. It states only "prosecution agencies, defense agencies, all LE organizations, DES, probation department, detention staff and the Attorney General's office. http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20TO%20CEASE%20DISSEMINATING%20INFORMATION.p df

Obviously, anyone who cares about justice in a case such as this, would limit their comments so as not to harm the proceedings. I think the "gag" order on the family is self-imposed...if not encouraged greatly by the attorneys involved. And personally, I wouldn't want to anger the judge.

[oceanblueeyes]

I double checked, because I wanted to be sure, but the gag order is NOT for the victims families. It states only "prosecution agencies, defense agencies, all LE organizations, DES, probation department, detention staff and the Attorney General's office. http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20TO%20CEASE%20DISSEMINATING%20INFORMATION.p df

Obviously, anyone who cares about justice in a case such as this, would limit their comments so as not to harm the proceedings. I think the "gag" order on the family is self-imposed...if not encouraged greatly by the attorneys involved. And personally, I wouldn't want to anger the judge.

I do know they must have some stipulations that directly applies to them. None of those who visit with him can talk about the case or the murders.

I am not sure how proclaiming someone innocent would do harm to the proceedings.

imoo

[Linda7NJ]

I do know they must have some stipulations that directly applies to them. None of those who visit with him can talk about the case or the murders.

I am not sure how proclaiming someone innocent would do harm to the proceedings.

imoo


It wouldn't.

You know she HAD to have talked with him about it when he was released to her for the holiday. It's inconceivable to think she didn't.

[Trino]

You know she HAD to have talked with him about it when he was released to her for the holiday. It's inconceivable to think she didn't.

I completely agree. If this were my child, I would not be able to contain myself.

[fran]

It wouldn't.

You know she HAD to have talked with him about it when he was released to her for the holiday. It's inconceivable to think she didn't.

Part of the agreement of letting the boy visit with her was she was NOT allowed to discuss the case with him.

She's already been warned by the judge that if she were to take off with the boy she would be jailed. It's not beyond the imagination to understand this woman knows the judge means what he says. IF she were to break any part of the written agreement, she would go to jail, including discussing the case.

I know I would have a hard time keeping ALL of that agreement, but IMHO, the judge expected her to keep her word and she probably did.

JMHO
fran

[Linda7NJ]

Part of the agreement of letting the boy visit with her was she was NOT allowed to discuss the case with him.

She's already been warned by the judge that if she were to take off with the boy she would be jailed. It's not beyond the imagination to understand this woman knows the judge means what he says. IF she were to break any part of the written agreement, she would go to jail, including discussing the case.

I know I would have a hard time keeping ALL of that agreement, but IMHO, the judge expected her to keep her word and she probably did.

JMHO
fran


I ain't buying it. The boy certainly seemed eager to talk about it & justfy it.

They both pretended nothing happened? If the boy started to mention it, his mother told him...sorry, can't listen, stuck her fingers in her ears and sang la la la? No way!

[OrdinaryLife]

I ain't buying it. The boy certainly seemed eager to talk about it & justfy it.

They both pretended nothing happened? If the boy started to mention it, his mother told him...sorry, can't listen, stuck her fingers in her ears and sang la la la? No way!

I have absoutely no doubt that rules made were followed through. If the child did even hint towards having a conversation with his Mom, I trust she put a nip to it quickly. Why would she want to ever risk not seeing and being with her son? The woman deserves a fair shake, imho, as a parent whose child is in trouble. If she had any evidence of being a "Jackie Peterson", she'd deserve the scrutiny. She hasn't and by all we have been able to read as available, she isn't.

[fran]

I have absoutely no doubt that rules made were followed through. If the child did even hint towards having a conversation with his Mom, I trust she put a nip to it quickly. Why would she want to ever risk not seeing and being with her son? The woman deserves a fair shake, imho, as a parent whose child is in trouble. If she had any evidence of being a "Jackie Peterson", she'd deserve the scrutiny. She hasn't and by all we have been able to read as available, she isn't.


I agree with you OL. She loves her son and is doing everything she can to help him, including following court orders. She used to regularly drive a 1000 miles to see him for a weekend and spoke to him by phone regularly.

Eryn has shown in NO WAY any disrespect for the law. I strongly doubt she would jeopradize her relationship with her son as well as being incarcerated, by going against the judge's orders.


JMHO
fran

[chiperoni]

The gag order in place means his mother cannot discuss the specifics of the crimes themselves. It does not prevent her from proclaiming his innocence, even if she wanted to do so night and day to the media.

In the MS. case that was just aired on TruTV last week where the young boy confessed to murdering his brother in law, he recanted that confession within 4 days, irrc

Thankfully, he was acquitted and his sister sits on death row.

imoo

I am not sure of that. She could have been told not to discuss the case at all by defense attorneys because of the gag order and I am sure she doe not want to do anything to hurt her son. If she started yelling from the rooftop that her son is innocent she would be asked to explain specifics by the media. Gag orders are imposed by judges so that either side stops talking to the media. If she kept appearing before the media and proclaiming her son's innocence the judge would not take kindly to this and could jeopardize future hearings. I don't think she would do anything to hurt her son.

[MeoW333]

It wouldn't.

You know she HAD to have talked with him about it when he was released to her for the holiday. It's inconceivable to think she didn't.

We don't know that she had or hadn't talked to him about it. My guess would be she hadn't, as a child may repeat what is said. I'm sure she went "by the books" and enjoyed bonding with her son for the lost time they had to make up.
There are so many things they could have done asides from talked about what happened. Granted, it was most likely very hard for both of them. Maybe they watched a movie, had popcorn.
I'm sure if they had talked, it would have leaked out somewhere by now, gag order or not. It'd be a stretch to expect a newly turned 9 year old to keep secrets if they had talked.

[chiperoni]

We don't know that she had or hadn't talked to him about it. My guess would be she hadn't, as a child may repeat what is said. I'm sure she went "by the books" and enjoyed bonding with her son for the lost time they had to make up.
There are so many things they could have done asides from talked about what happened. Granted, it was most likely very hard for both of them. Maybe they watched a movie, had popcorn.
I'm sure if they had talked, it would have leaked out somewhere by now, gag order or not. It'd be a stretch to expect a newly turned 9 year old to keep secrets if they had talked.

I hoped they had bonding time. This has to be such a hard time for the mother of the accused boy. She certainly has not been grandstanding and seems to be very interested in her son's welfare.

[Razzle]

Hi Everyone! This is my first post but I have been lurking for a while.

I have read all the threads regarding this case, and I am wondering if anyone else has thought about the Cinnamon Brown case in regards to this. I know that there aren't any similarities in the family dynamics or the crimes themselves, but the way that Cinnamon was thrown under the bus and blamed for the murders...IDK...just tossing that out there.

I personally believe that the boy is either covering for someone or he doesn't know what happened. I do not believe for a moment that he was capable of firing all ten shots, without missing once, and was able to gun down 2 full grown men. That is one very lucky, very cool headed little boy if that is the case. Can you imagine the amount of adrenaline that would be pumping through him at that time? I think that would make it much harder to control the weapon properly and reload.

Is there a chance that the boy witnessed the murders and then blocked it out instantly and is confused about what happened? Victims of sexual abuse do that frequently, as it is hard for a child's brain to process sitting down for cheerios in the morning with their Grandfather who raped them the previous night. Instead, the brain blocks out the sexual abuse almost as quickly as it happened. I am sure the brain could do that in other traumatic situations.

MOO

[Linda7NJ]

Hi Everyone! This is my first post but I have been lurking for a while.

I have read all the threads regarding this case, and I am wondering if anyone else has thought about the Cinnamon Brown case in regards to this. I know that there aren't any similarities in the family dynamics or the crimes themselves, but the way that Cinnamon was thrown under the bus and blamed for the murders...IDK...just tossing that out there.

I personally believe that the boy is either covering for someone or he doesn't know what happened. I do not believe for a moment that he was capable of firing all ten shots, without missing once, and was able to gun down 2 full grown men. That is one very lucky, very cool headed little boy if that is the case. Can you imagine the amount of adrenaline that would be pumping through him at that time? I think that would make it much harder to control the weapon properly and reload.

Is there a chance that the boy witnessed the murders and then blocked it out instantly and is confused about what happened? Victims of sexual abuse do that frequently, as it is hard for a child's brain to process sitting down for cheerios in the morning with their Grandfather who raped them the previous night. Instead, the brain blocks out the sexual abuse almost as quickly as it happened. I am sure the brain could do that in other traumatic situations.

MOO

If the child was in a dissociative-state, he would not have had that first story he gave.

If he was covering for someone, I believe he would have sung like a bird by now.

We know he was there.

If the child planned it and went as far as to lure the roomie ...he wasn't shaking. He was as cool as a cucumber. Every bit as cool as he was telling his tales to LE.

imo

[Fairy1]

Hi Everyone! This is my first post but I have been lurking for a while.

I have read all the threads regarding this case, and I am wondering if anyone else has thought about the Cinnamon Brown case in regards to this. I know that there aren't any similarities in the family dynamics or the crimes themselves, but the way that Cinnamon was thrown under the bus and blamed for the murders...IDK...just tossing that out there.

I personally believe that the boy is either covering for someone or he doesn't know what happened. I do not believe for a moment that he was capable of firing all ten shots, without missing once, and was able to gun down 2 full grown men. That is one very lucky, very cool headed little boy if that is the case. Can you imagine the amount of adrenaline that would be pumping through him at that time? I think that would make it much harder to control the weapon properly and reload.

Is there a chance that the boy witnessed the murders and then blocked it out instantly and is confused about what happened? Victims of sexual abuse do that frequently, as it is hard for a child's brain to process sitting down for cheerios in the morning with their Grandfather who raped them the previous night. Instead, the brain blocks out the sexual abuse almost as quickly as it happened. I am sure the brain could do that in other traumatic situations.

MOO

Hi Razzle and welcome!!! I tend to believe this boy is covering for someone of whom he is extremely frightened. If he actually witnessed the murders, that would be logical. He wasn't seriously questioned until the following day, so there was plenty of time to go into shock, calm down and try to figure out what he should say. And we don't know if someone may have further influenced him in the hours between the murders and the interrogation. If he is a cold, calculating sociopath, as some believe, he would have had his story straight from the get-go.

[Linda7NJ]

Hi Razzle and welcome!!! I tend to believe this boy is covering for someone of whom he is extremely frightened. If he actually witnessed the murders, that would be logical. He wasn't seriously questioned until the following day, so there was plenty of time to go into shock, calm down and try to figure out what he should say. And we don't know if someone may have further influenced him in the hours between the murders and the interrogation. If he is a cold, calculating sociopath, as some believe, he would have had his story straight from the get-go.


He did have his story straight. He only began changing his story when he believed he was caught in lies.

[Fairy1]

He did have his story straight. He only began changing his story when he believed he was caught in lies.


Or badgered by the detectives into saying what they wanted him to say. Doesn't take a genious to rattle an 8-year-old child.

[Trino]

We don't know that she had or hadn't talked to him about it. My guess would be she hadn't, as a child may repeat what is said. I'm sure she went "by the books" and enjoyed bonding with her son for the lost time they had to make up.
There are so many things they could have done asides from talked about what happened. Granted, it was most likely very hard for both of them. Maybe they watched a movie, had popcorn.
I'm sure if they had talked, it would have leaked out somewhere by now, gag order or not. It'd be a stretch to expect a newly turned 9 year old to keep secrets if they had talked.

If the testimony about the murders isn't believeable, would anyone believe the boy if he said he talked to his mother about the case?

[SoobsinMI]

I don't find it impossible to believe that the mother hasn't spoken of the crime to her son. Judges tell jurors all the time, not to watch television, read the papers, or discuss the trial with family. Are you saying that's impossible? If one can show restraint as a finder of fact, how much more easily would it be to do so, when your child's life is at stake?

[Linda7NJ]

I don't find it impossible to believe that the mother hasn't spoken of the crime to her son. Judges tell jurors all the time, not to watch television, read the papers, or discuss the trial with family. Are you saying that's impossible? If one can show restraint as a finder of fact, how much more easily would it be to do so, when your child's life is at stake?


#1 who is the mother gonna tell?

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

[Linda7NJ]

Or badgered by the detectives into saying what they wanted him to say. Doesn't take a genious to rattle an 8-year-old child.


He has not recanted. One would think after all of this time in lock-up he would spill what he knows. IF.... he was actually covering for someone else.

[fran]

The child was asked if he knew who did this. He said he didn't know.
The child said there was a white car, just like grandpa's.
Coincidentally, the grandpa's Mossberg 22 LR automatic is missing.

There is now a GAG order.

Pretty self-explanatory.
JMHO, of course,
fran

[OrdinaryLife]

He has not recanted. One would think after all of this time in lock-up he would spill what he knows. IF.... he was actually covering for someone else.

We have absolutely no idea what the child has told his lawyer. And, we won't until the time any information will be made available. This is one of those times it's good to have legal counsel. I think his advice to the child and his family is being followed.

[oceanblueeyes]

If the child was in a dissociative-state, he would not have had that first story he gave.

If he was covering for someone, I believe he would have sung like a bird by now.

We know he was there.

If the child planned it and went as far as to lure the roomie ...he wasn't shaking. He was as cool as a cucumber. Every bit as cool as he was telling his tales to LE.

imo


I have always felt one of the best pieces of evidence that LE has is the time line, which much of it will be backed up with cell phone records.

But lets consider this. At 4:52 pm Tim told Tonya that Vinnie was walking through the door. At that time he was very much alive. Two and a half minutes later Tim tells Tanya that he has to hang up because the boy is calling him saying something bad had happened to his dad. Shortly thereafter Tim is also dead. Approximately around 5 pm is when the neighbors say they heard the gunshots.

So how could this boy have come upon the scene afterward, saw Tim, threw his book bag under the table, went through the house calling for his dad, found his dad on the stairs and then sat beside him for 30 minutes. Then have time to get the gun to shoot at the car that was passing by and then hightail it to the neighbors? And where is the extra spent casing when he said he shot at the car?

Now he didn't even need 11 minutes to fire the weapon 10 times. It takes seconds to eject the spent casing and to reload. Anyone that doesn't think 11 minutes is a long time, then they need to sit there and look at their watch for 11 minutes. He didn't even need 8 minutes imo and the neighbor's house was not that far at all from his home which would take him less than a minute to reach imo.

imoo

[MeoW333]

If the testimony about the murders isn't believeable, would anyone believe the boy if he said he talked to his mother about the case?

I don't understand your question, or what it implies, or if it is a rhetorical question.. :confused:

[MeoW333]

I have always felt one of the best pieces of evidence that LE has is the time line, which much of it will be backed up with cell phone records.

But lets consider this. At 4:52 pm Tim told Tonya that Vinnie was walking through the door. At that time he was very much alive. Two and a half minutes later Vinnie tells Tanya that he has to hang up because the boy is calling him saying something bad had happened to his dad. Shortly thereafter Tim is also dead. Approximately around 5 pm is when the neighbors say they heard the gunshots.

So how could this boy have come upon the scene afterward, saw Tim, threw his book bag under the table, went through the house calling for his dad, found his dad on the stairs and then sat beside him for 30 minutes. Then have time to get the gun to shoot at the car that was passing by and then hightail it to the neighbors? And where is the extra spent casing when he said he shot at the car?

Now he didn't even need 11 minutes to fire the weapon 10 times. It takes seconds to eject the spent casing and to reload. Anyone that doesn't think 11 minutes is a long time, then they need to sit there and look at their watch for 11 minutes. He didn't even need 8 minutes imo and the neighbor's house was not that far at all from his home which would take him less than a minute to reach imo.

imoo

That's just Tonya's words. She wasn't there, she didn't see anything. As to what conversation she had with Tim, we really have no idea, all we have to go on is what Tonya says.
What we do know is that they were going to get a divorce and that Tim was openly cheating on her. That's why i think it's weird they still called each other babe. If they were trying to get their marriage back together, then she was the only one trying.

[MeoW333]

Where is grandpa's mossberg? Was it reported stolen? Or is it just missing?

[Linda7NJ]

I have always felt one of the best pieces of evidence that LE has is the time line, which much of it will be backed up with cell phone records.

But lets consider this. At 4:52 pm Tim told Tonya that Vinnie was walking through the door. At that time he was very much alive. Two and a half minutes later Vinnie tells Tanya that he has to hang up because the boy is calling him saying something bad had happened to his dad. Shortly thereafter Tim is also dead. Approximately around 5 pm is when the neighbors say they heard the gunshots.

So how could this boy have come upon the scene afterward, saw Tim, threw his book bag under the table, went through the house calling for his dad, found his dad on the stairs and then sat beside him for 30 minutes. Then have time to get the gun to shoot at the car that was passing by and then hightail it to the neighbors? And where is the extra spent casing when he said he shot at the car?

Now he didn't even need 11 minutes to fire the weapon 10 times. It takes seconds to eject the spent casing and to reload. Anyone that doesn't think 11 minutes is a long time, then they need to sit there and look at their watch for 11 minutes. He didn't even need 8 minutes imo and the neighbor's house was not that far at all from his home which would take him less than a minute to reach imo.

imoo


I absolutely agree 100% with everything you stated.

[Linda7NJ]

That's just Tonya's words. She wasn't there, she didn't see anything. As to what conversation she had with Tim, we really have no idea, all we have to go on is what Tonya says.
What we do know is that they were going to get a divorce and that Tim was openly cheating on her. That's why i think it's weird they still called each other babe. If they were trying to get their marriage back together, then she was the only one trying.


They may be just Tonya's words to you. Her words, cell records and everything else is obviously enough to hold him and him alone. No other arrests have been made. That tells me the judge, whose privy to far more than we are feels there's enough to hold him. The fact remains the boy has been charged and remains in custody.

As far as her relationship with Tim, I have no idea of the innerworkings of their marriage and neither do you. I've known plenty of men that cheat on their wives and have had long term relationships outside of their marriage, while still all lovey dovey with their wives. We just do not know.

[Razzle]

Where is grandpa's mossberg? Was it reported stolen? Or is it just missing?

This is what I am dying to know. I would also like to know what follow up investigating was done on the white car, if any.

[Razzle]

They may be just Tonya's words to you. Her words, cell records and everything else is obviously enough to hold him and him alone. No other arrests have been made. That tells me the judge, whose privy to far more than we are feels there's enough to hold him. The fact remains the boy has been charged and remains in custody.

<respectfully snipped by me>

But what if they just don;t want to back pedal and admit that they wrongfully charged an 8.5 year old child with the murder of his father and a friend? That would look pretty bad on the PD as well as the courts in St Johns. I hate to think that people would be so corrupt, but things like that DO happen.

I don't know if that is the case in this situation, but I'm just sayin'...

[oceanblueeyes]

That's just Tonya's words. She wasn't there, she didn't see anything. As to what conversation she had with Tim, we really have no idea, all we have to go on is what Tonya says.
What we do know is that they were going to get a divorce and that Tim was openly cheating on her. That's why i think it's weird they still called each other babe. If they were trying to get their marriage back together, then she was the only one trying.

No, imo it will not only be her words. Imo the time line will line up for all of this to have happened to her husband after she hung up with him when he told her he had to go see what the boy wanted.

I don't think that Tanya, who lived a 170 miles away, even knew about Tim's St. Johns girlfriend until after he was killed.

No, we do not know that they were going to get a divorce. No divorce papers were ever filed and Tim wouldn't be the first man who told their lover they were going to get a divorce and had no intentions of doing so.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

But what if they just don;t want to back pedal and admit that they wrongfully charged an 8.5 year old child with the murder of his father and a friend? That would look pretty bad on the PD as well as the courts in St Johns. I hate to think that people would be so corrupt, but things like that DO happen.

I don't know if that is the case in this situation, but I'm just sayin'...

No DA in this country would want this case. If they had their pick they would have much preferred the defendant be some snarly brute with a rap sheet a mile long but the DA doesn't get to pick the age of the suspect. It is what it is.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

I absolutely agree 100% with everything you stated.

Thank you.

We know that Tim Romans was killed between 4:55 p.m and 5:00 p.m.

That gave the boy only enough time to leave and go to the neighbors, so he would not be caught in the home, with his dead father's body and with his father's friend on the front porch.

I know this is not a popular opinion but I truly feel he did this.

imoo

[SoobsinMI]

#1 who is the mother gonna tell?

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

I'm not sure I understand your point in #1. Are you suggesting that someone can't NOT talk about something, even something this important? Or are you suggesting that the mother talked to her child about it, but no one will know she did because she won't tell anyone? I don't believe all people have so little self-control.

As to #2....it could be said that it is an "undisputed fact" that everyone is a liar. My young children will lie to get out of trouble ("Not Me" gets into trouble at my house.) Doesn't mean I don't believe a word they say.

[SoobsinMI]

But what if they just don;t want to back pedal and admit that they wrongfully charged an 8.5 year old child with the murder of his father and a friend? That would look pretty bad on the PD as well as the courts in St Johns. I hate to think that people would be so corrupt, but things like that DO happen.

I don't know if that is the case in this situation, but I'm just sayin'...

Not to mention the fact that it would mess up their PR notice about how they "successfully investigated a double murder." :rolleyes:

[Openmind]

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

[southcitymom]

The gag order in place means his mother cannot discuss the specifics of the crimes themselves. It does not prevent her from proclaiming his innocence, even if she wanted to do so night and day to the media.

In the MS. case that was just aired on TruTV last week where the young boy confessed to murdering his brother in law, he recanted that confession within 4 days, irrc

Thankfully, he was acquitted and his sister sits on death row.

imoo

I watched most of that, but didn't see the end. I am glad to hear he was acquitted in the retrial.

[Fairy1]

No, imo it will not only be her words. Imo the time line will line up for all of this to have happened to her husband after she hung up with him when he told her he had to go see what the boy wanted.

I don't think that Tanya, who lived a 170 miles away, even knew about Tim's St. Johns girlfriend until after he was killed.

No, we do not know that they were going to get a divorce. No divorce papers were ever filed and Tim wouldn't be the first man who told their lover they were going to get a divorce and had no intentions of doing so.

imoo

While it can be determined whether Tim was on the phone with her at that specific time, we will NEVER truly know what she heard. SHE may not really even know what she heard. And I can totally understand how someone might mistake the voice of a child for the voice of a woman. Bottom line is, I doubt any court would allow Tanya's testimony with regard to that phone conversation. I'm not saying the little boy didn't commit these murders. I am saying that we have what appears to be a lacking investigation, an impressionable child and several possible motives of other people in these men's lives. Let's face it, this PD is NOT equipped to handle this type of case (not that many would be!), and there are plenty of other possible scenarios in these murders. I just would rather not see a young child be convicted and written off as a danger to society until all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed...

[oceanblueeyes]

While it can be determined whether Tim was on the phone with her at that specific time, we will NEVER truly know what she heard. SHE may not really even know what she heard. And I can totally understand how someone might mistake the voice of a child for the voice of a woman. Bottom line is, I doubt any court would allow Tanya's testimony with regard to that phone conversation. I'm not saying the little boy didn't commit these murders. I am saying that we have what appears to be a lacking investigation, an impressionable child and several possible motives of other people in these men's lives. Let's face it, this PD is NOT equipped to handle this type of case (not that many would be!), and there are plenty of other possible scenarios in these murders. I just would rather not see a young child be convicted and written off as a danger to society until all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed...

Imo, it wont even matter, Fairy, but I do believe that Tanya will come across as credible.

The main thing is Tim was on the phone and they will have those cell records of the time he hung up. So they will know at approximately 4:55 pm he was alive, no matter what was said on the phone and by 5:00 pm gunshots were heard.

Then we have to consider all that transpired after 5:00 pm. The boy had to run to the neighbors and tell the older boy what happened, then the other boy had to call his father on his cell phone and tell him what happened and the father has to come home and then he goes to the Romeros to see Tim's body laying there, for himself, before he calls 911 and that is done by 5:03 p.m.

Imo, the time line will be of much more importance than even what Tanya said that Tim said to her. It will just bolster the other evidence imo.

imoo

[MeoW333]

They may be just Tonya's words to you. Her words, cell records and everything else is obviously enough to hold him and him alone. No other arrests have been made. That tells me the judge, whose privy to far more than we are feels there's enough to hold him. The fact remains the boy has been charged and remains in custody.

As far as her relationship with Tim, I have no idea of the innerworkings of their marriage and neither do you. I've known plenty of men that cheat on their wives and have had long term relationships outside of their marriage, while still all lovey dovey with their wives. We just do not know.

They don't have her words, they just have her cell records, imo. Um, it was posted in an article awhile back about Tim's affair, actually it was in the court pdf files when the officers where being questioned, so you can find it in there. Don't tell me what i know or don't know. Tim's affair was out in the open, read the pdf files awhile back in one of the threads for Apache County and this case.

[MeoW333]

#1 who is the mother gonna tell?

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a child with Conduct Disorder, does not mean it applies to this case.
Since you think he's guilty and with that "confession" and all that would make him a person who has trouble lying. Do you honestly think an 8 year old could plan a perfect double murder complete with alibis and ridding of bodies?
Is that what you want me to say?

The mother's visitation with the boy is irrelevant to even bring up they may have talked about it.

[MeoW333]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

Agreed, Openmind, you explained it better than i could.

[azmama]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?


This is my sentiment as well, exactly! IF he did do it, he needs to be taught this is wrong, and be APPROPRIATELY punished (not tried as an adult), however, from what I have seen, and know of the area etc, I do not believe he did this, and am afraid of the permanent emotional and mental effect this is having on him.

[OrdinaryLife]

I'm going to go back and review the interview LE did with this child. I know there are transcripts out there, but I think there was something missed that was not transcribed. I have some things I must do, but I will listen to it as soon as I can. I think something was missed that the child said during the interview.

[Linda7NJ]

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a child with Conduct Disorder, does not mean it applies to this case.
Since you think he's guilty and with that "confession" and all that would make him a person who has trouble lying. Do you honestly think an 8 year old could plan a perfect double murder complete with alibis and ridding of bodies?
Is that what you want me to say?

The mother's visitation with the boy is irrelevant to even bring up they may have talked about it.


This is not what I would call "the perfect murder" ...far from it.

[Ms Suzanne]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

I agree.Very well said.

[Trino]

I wonder if this ruling will impact the case. The Supreme Court says evidence is valid despite police error:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

[fran]

Imo, it wont even matter, Fairy, but I do believe that Tanya will come across as credible.

The main thing is Tim was on the phone and they will have those cell records of the time he hung up. So they will know at approximately 4:55 pm he was alive, no matter what was said on the phone and by 5:00 pm gunshots were heard.

Then we have to consider all that transpired after 5:00 pm. The boy had to run to the neighbors and tell the older boy what happened, then the other boy had to call his father on his cell phone and tell him what happened and the father has to come home and then he goes to the Romeros to see Tim's body laying there, for himself, before he calls 911 and that is done by 5:03 p.m.

Imo, the time line will be of much more importance than even what Tanya said that Tim said to her. It will just bolster the other evidence imo.

imoo

I personally don't have the same confidence in the reliability of Tanya's statement and I don't believe LE or a judge will either. After watching case after case unfold here on the pages of Websleuth's and in the media, I view anything she says as a witness in this case as, tainted.

The first report to LE was, that I saw, "Tim told her the boy was calling him." It wasn't until later, the next day I believe, that she claimed to have heard the child's voice. But, by the time the revelation came out that she'd actually heard the child's voice, she already had a ve$ted interest in WANTING the child to be the shooter.

In Tanya's earliest phone interviews about the crime, she made claims that her husband was the 'only bread winner' of the family. By the time she met with the family of the other victim, she already had it in her sites to sue the game manufacturers. "What video games does he play?" She also stopped in the middle of her interview with LE, when they inquired about Tim's OTHER women. She then lawyered up and refused subsequent requests by LE to talk to her, 'Talk to my lawyer.' She wouldn't even give them Tim's cell phone number.

Grieving wife won't talk to LE but referred them to her lawyer. MAJOR RED FLAG.

Oh, I'm not sure she had anything to do with the actual murders. But, she does plan to profit off them. However, the only way she can profit off her husband's death is IF the child is declared the killer.

The time line means NOTHING. It just proves what time the killings happened. It does NOT prove who the shooter was. Just like the GSR doesn't prove anything except that the child was at the scene of the crime, which he admitted he stumbled onto.

JMHO
fran

PS......points to ponder............from child's interview...........'does anyone come over while you're home alone?' ' No, just grandpa sometimes.' or '....a white car 'like grandpa's.'' Further along in questioning he mentioned another 22 LR in the home, '.......grandpa's, it's the same but bigger and takes the same ammo.'...........NOT EXACT quotes but close. Owner's manual to 22LR, Mossberg, automatic, empty gun case, pictured in evidence photos. Where's the gun? ;)...fran

PPS....Two guns kept in Tim's truck, only one found by LE. Where's the second gun? Why was the passenger side door open? Did someone stop to retreive a gun from behind the seat? LE found the second gun in the console. Dana said Tim kept his gun behind the seat..........fran

PPPS....I viewed on youtube people shooting the same gun as the alleged murder weapon. Not only is it clumsy even when the shooter has it propped up in front of them trying to load it quickly, it makes barely a pop. This COULD account for someone outside not hearing shots fired inside a closed house. But it ALSO bodes towards the neighbor NOT being able to hear the discharge as well, even WITH the front door open. IMHO, IF the neighbors heard Tim being shot, it was not the Cricket gun (or whatever) they heard discharged. It was MOST LIKELY the Mossberg, that takes the same shells as the boy's gun and is MISSING.fran

PPPPS...............Wonder how Tim's wife was able to make out the child's voice above the DOG BARK?!..............OR, IF she didn't hear the dog barking, she didn't hear the boy either:rolleyes:.........fran

[fran]

I wonder if this ruling will impact the case. The Supreme Court says evidence is valid despite police error:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

If anything, I believe it will have a positive effect on this particular case. Clearly, the failure by LE to Mirandaize the child and advise him he had a right to an attorney, was MISCONDUCT by the officers.

JMHO
fran

.....from the above link................

"Some courts have ruled that as a deterrent to police misconduct, the fruits of a similar search may be excluded from evidence."

[oceanblueeyes]

I personally don't have the same confidence in the reliability of Tanya's statement and I don't believe LE or a judge will either. After watching case after case unfold here on the pages of Websleuth's and in the media, I view anything she says as a witness in this case as, tainted.

The first report to LE was, that I saw, "Tim told her the boy was calling him." It wasn't until later, the next day I believe, that she claimed to have heard the child's voice. But, by the time the revelation came out that she'd actually heard the child's voice, she already had a ve$ted interest in WANTING the child to be the shooter.

In Tanya's earliest phone interviews about the crime, she made claims that her husband was the 'only bread winner' of the family. By the time she met with the family of the other victim, she already had it in her sites to sue the game manufacturers. "What video games does he play?" She also stopped in the middle of her interview with LE, when they inquired about Tim's OTHER women. She then lawyered up and refused subsequent requests by LE to talk to her, 'Talk to my lawyer.' She wouldn't even give them Tim's cell phone number.

Grieving wife won't talk to LE but referred them to her lawyer. MAJOR RED FLAG.

Oh, I'm not sure she had anything to do with the actual murders. But, she does plan to profit off them. However, the only way she can profit off her husband's death is IF the child is declared the killer.

The time line means NOTHING. It just proves what time the killings happened. It does NOT prove who the shooter was. Just like the GSR doesn't prove anything except that the child was at the scene of the crime, which he admitted he stumbled onto.

JMHO
fran

PS......points to ponder............from child's interview...........'does anyone come over while you're home alone?' ' No, just grandpa sometimes.' or '....a white car 'like grandpa's.'' Further along in questioning he mentioned another 22 LR in the home, '.......grandpa's, it's the same but bigger and takes the same ammo.'...........NOT EXACT quotes but close. Owner's manual to 22LR, Mossberg, automatic, empty gun case, pictured in evidence photos. Where's the gun? ;)...fran

PPS....Two guns kept in Tim's truck, only one found by LE. Where's the second gun? Why was the passenger side door open? Did someone stop to retrieve a gun from behind the seat? LE found the second gun in the console. Dana said Tim kept his gun behind the seat..........fran

PPPS....I viewed on youtube people shooting the same gun as the alleged murder weapon. Not only is it clumsy even when the shooter has it propped up in front of them trying to load it quickly, it makes barely a pop. This COULD account for someone outside not hearing shots fired inside a closed house. But it ALSO bodes towards the neighbor NOT being able to hear the discharge as well, even WITH the front door open. IMHO, IF the neighbors heard Tim being shot, it was not the Cricket gun (or whatever) they heard discharged. It was MOST LIKELY the Mossberg, that takes the same shells as the boy's gun and is MISSING.fran

PPPPS...............Wonder how Tim's wife was able to make out the child's voice above the DOG BARK?!..............OR, IF she didn't hear the dog barking, she didn't hear the boy either:rolleyes:.........fran

We don't even know the dog barked. Puppies and even grown dogs are very scared when they hear gunfire. They will usually wet themselves and maybe whimper or try to hide.

Fran, even if you removed Tanya from the picture the cell phone records will show that Romans was alive around 4:55 pm and by 5:00 pm four of the six shots were heard by the neighbors. These neighbors have no attachment to Tanya or Tim. So this case isn't going to rest on Tanya.

IMO what will prove this case among other things,is all the cell phone records that were being used right around the time of the murders. The neighbors said when they looked out they saw no one. That means imo that the shooter had already left the scene. So then LE will have the exact time of when the neighbor boy contacted his father to come. IMO it will be within a minute or two of the neighbors hearing the shots. it will show imo that this boy did not have time to do anything he said he did when he said he went inside the home or was walking up the street and found Tim already on the porch.

So all the blame and suspicion can try to be placed on someone else, like Tanya but to me it is a futile attempt.

Whatever he said to her or not will not be the crux of this case but what cant be denied is he was very much alive when he said it and by 5:00 four of the gunshots were heard and 911 was called three minutes later.

It gives this boy no time to do anything that he said he did after he said he saw them dead and then go to the neighbors and wait for the other boy's father to come and then call 911.

All the time it leaves him is to get out of there once the murders have been accomplished where they are no longer quivering and shaking and hightail it to the friend's house and wait for the other father to come and so the father can then look at the body of Romans before dialing 911 and I believe the records are going to show that.

TRs guns were not used in this case. They were higher caliber. These victims were killed by .22 bullets per the ME.

You cannot compare a youtube video of someone learning how to shoot. It isn't clumsy at all. The boy told the police it is easy to use and it is. He could pick off small rabbits from yards away with it, so he was no novice.

imo

[MeoW333]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or excercise. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

[oceanblueeyes]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or exercises. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

Hi Meo!

I don't know of any hunter that takes a puppy with them with they hunt game. Puppies are unpredictable and playful. It is not logical to take them because if they were to see a rabbit or other game they would scamper off trying to chase it.

People do take dogs with them when they have been trained to not flinch when they hear gunfire but not 4-5 month old puppies who are curious about everything. Now they may have thought once the dog got older and less unruly that she may make a good hunting dog one day. I have never heard of Boxers being hunting dogs though.

imoo

[fran]

Sorry OBE, just like me, you are ASSUMING things that haven't been proven. UNTIL it's proven, it isn't there or could be,.........or NOT. Therefore, to proclaim the child guilty is, to say the least, premature. We do NOT know what the 'evidence' shows.

I read the neighbors heard the gunshots ABOUT 5:05. That DOUBLES the time period. LE received the 911 calls(s) (read it was TWO 911 calls at the same time), at 5:09 or maybe 5:11. In addition to that, IIRC, the phone call with Tim ended at 4:52, which again adds additional time.

I would think an automatic 22LR could fire off 10 shots pretty rapidly, as quickly as it takes to pull the trigger. (note, Mossberg 22 auto clip holds 10 rounds) The neighbor said they heard about four shots. There's info that both were shot in the head. This COULD have been the killer making sure the victims did NOT get up, EVER.

I don't believe the neighbors looked out immediately. It took them a moment or two to even think about looking outside. Of course, there again, I'm assuming, from what I've read.

I realize that Tim's guns were NOT used in this crime, but where is the second one? WHY is it missing?

Again, the grandfather's 22 rifle that he kept at the murder scene is missing. Why?

Again you're assuming about the youtube videos. I not ONLY saw children about the age of this child attempting to shoot this gun, I saw adults trying to show the children how it's done and teenagers who thought they were 'all that,' attempting to fire quickly to show their markmanship. SLOW AND CLUMSY this gun was 'propped' and still the shooter's aim was in question. Yet, we're to believe this child was 'Koolhand Luke' shooting a peashooter at not one but TWO moving targets as he shot, reloaded, bolted, shot again, ten times, and was then able to calmly go to a neighbor's to 'lay the scene out' for unsuspecting witnesses of his devious deed.

I don't like accusing ANYONE of this crime. Not the wives, the grandparents, the co-workers, the g/f's psycho b/f, the drug addict cousins. But those are all the POSSIBLE killers of these two victims. UNTIL ALL of these are cleared and UNTIL all 'forensics' is in, INCLUDING 'crime scene reinactment,' that COULD show it possible that a small child could pull off this crime with that flimsy alleged murder weapon, all is fair game, IMHO.

To ignore ALL POSSIBILITIES is NOT only a disservice to this child, but to the victims as well. What a miscarriage of justice it would be IF LE were to settle on this child's bogus alleged confession, all the while allowing the REAL killer to go free.

What a mess St Johns LE has created. Now the question is, will they do the right thing and undo it? Or is it even possible?

JMHO
fran

PS.......BEFORE everyone jumps all over me and says LE must be investigating and have cleared everyone else AND the child is still in jail, so he's guilty........Sorry,.............think............ please..........the JUDGE said he's NOT going to rule on ANYTHING (can't recall exact word) until the report comes down from a higher court. EVERYTHING is on hold, INCLUDING this child's life, until the JUDGE decides what to do..........seriously, I PRAY LE REALLY IS continuing their investigation. They owe it to these two victims and their family,........ they OWE it to this child.............fran

[Linda7NJ]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or exercise. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

I have two dobermans. One, is terrified of the sound of lightening, fireworks and the sound of a nail gun ( air compresser) . I am certain he would cower at the sound of gun fire as well. The other is fearless.

The point being, you never know which you're going to end up with. We have no idea if his dog was fearless or afraid of loud noises.

[oceanblueeyes]

I am doing nothing more than you are, Fran. These time lines have been documented in various motions and hearings on the Apache court site. I do think they will be accurate. I don't see me having my own opinon as any different than someone assuming that Tanya is somehow a liar or the culprit in this case. There certainly is no proof of that either.

What may have been determined as missing on November 5th, 2008 may not have been missing at all. One of the guns belonged to Vinnie's father. So he very well may have come to his son's home to retrieve his weapon before any of this ever happened. We also do not know that Tim's gun is missing. He too could have given it to someone, even his St. Johns girlfriend or left it with his wife for protection since he wasn't home during the week.

Yes, a semi automatic or automatic would fire very rapidly. However that is inconsistent with the neighbor's statement. They said they heard a "pop" then a delay between each shot. That is consistent with a single bolt action rifle.

I do not know the children that you have seen or understand why they would struggle shooting this very simple weapon. I can only go by my own personal experiences of shooting this same type of single bolt action rifle, beginning at the age of 7. I was certainly not some phenomenon, many children my age could ace a target with this gun and load,fire, eject and reload in just a few seconds.

No matter Judge Roca's rulings or not, I do not think he would keep this boy if he didn't think there is evidence against him and he knows the evidence much more in depth than anyone of us here does.

imo

[Trino]

If anything, I believe it will have a positive effect on this particular case. Clearly, the failure by LE to Mirandaize the child and advise him he had a right to an attorney, was MISCONDUCT by the officers.

JMHO
fran

.....from the above link................

"Some courts have ruled that as a deterrent to police misconduct, the fruits of a similar search may be excluded from evidence."

I think it will impact the warrant issued by the judge who knew the boy. The judge issued the warrant in good faith.

[fran]

I think it will impact the warrant issued by the judge who knew the boy. The judge issued the warrant in good faith.

Oh, I didn't connect this to the SW issue.
Well, although the judge did act in good faith, at the same time he knew he was going against the 'established rules.' That's why he MENTIONED at the time he signed the SW, that he wouldn't be able to handle the case in the future.

I HOPE they are able to keep the evidence gathered at the scene right after the murders,..........INCOMPLETE as it is.

Too bad the chief had the mortuary come and remove the bodies before the lead detectives could investigate the scene and BEFORE the forensics guys came from out of town. But then, .......the Lead Detectives feel the same way. Wonder what the judge thinks?

Poor police work, IMO.

JMHO
fran

[Fairy1]

I just want to clarify my position concerning Tanya. It's not that I don't consider her to be credible. I simply believe that she could easily be mistaken about what she heard and I believe it's possible Tim may have been mistaken as well. There's a huge difference between an eyewitness and an "ear" witness. The cell phone records will surely help to establish a timeline, but I don't believe any testimony of the phone conversation could be used to corroborate anything else. That's all.

With the gag order in place, we're pretty much relegated to speculation here. But let's please not overlook the fact that LE everywhere has been known to make mistakes they were not willing to admit. This LE is from a very small community that is not accustomed to investigating this type of crime. We know mistakes have been made in this case. Couple that with the fact that it's way outside of the norm and it's really not so difficult to believe that this child did not commit these murders.....

[MeoW333]

Hi Meo!

I don't know of any hunter that takes a puppy with them with they hunt game. Puppies are unpredictable and playful. It is not logical to take them because if they were to see a rabbit or other game they would scamper off trying to chase it.

People do take dogs with them when they have been trained to not flinch when they hear gunfire but not 4-5 month old puppies who are curious about everything. Now they may have thought once the dog got older and less unruly that she may make a good hunting dog one day. I have never heard of Boxers being hunting dogs though.

imoo

Hi OBE, Mornin' :)
I'm sure the boy wasn't doing a serious game hunting without his father. If the boy went to target shoot at cans, he could have brought the puppy with him. We don't know either way, is true..
Boxers may make good hunting dogs if they were to be trained right.
I just read an article in the "News that makes you smile" about an Officer who adopted a pound puppy and trained him for police work, since their department didn't have the funds for a K9. It was originally the boy's boxer, so it's anyone's guess if the boy took him around with him a lot.
Too bad the boxer can't tell us what happened.

[SailorMoon]

Well......fwiw at this point... I still have a lot of sympathy and feel bad for the child. I cannot imagine my 7yo doing something like this...even remotely close. Yes, I know the "accused" is 8yo and things have been done that no one could ever imagine...but LE didn't help with their questioning methods in this case. think of your child in that interrogation room with LE.....I'm almost inclined to think that they could have made my son say he ate the moon. Leaves a lot of wondering and what ifs to me.

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi OBE, Mornin' :)
I'm sure the boy wasn't doing a serious game hunting without his father. If the boy went to target shoot at cans, he could have brought the puppy with him. We don't know either way, is true..
Boxers may make good hunting dogs if they were to be trained right.
I just read an article in the "News that makes you smile" about an Officer who adopted a pound puppy and trained him for police work, since their department didn't have the funds for a K9. It was originally the boy's boxer, so it's anyone's guess if the boy took him around with him a lot.
Too bad the boxer can't tell us what happened.

Hi there!

I do agree that she may have been able to be trained later. Are Boxers used for hunting dogs though? I am curious because I have never heard of them being used as a hunting dog. They can be a little rambunctious.

I know one time my dad and I went target practicing and he took our little fox terrier, Patsy, with us. We didn't even think about the gunfire and how she would react. When we got ready to come home we couldn't find her anywhere. We looked for three days, day and night, and then she finally made it home on her own from three miles away where she went missing. After then we even noticed she was terrified of even fireworks or thunder and lightning.

It doesn't have to be serious hunting, It is the firing of the weapon and most, if not trained, will head for the hills scared to death. High pitches hurts a dog's ears and Nellie is just a puppy.

I may be wrong but I just don't think they took her hunting but she was his puppy and he played with her in the home and around the neighborhood.

I think Nellie was scared to death the day all the gunfire erupted but she had no where to hide, since she was supposedly in her cage.

imoo

[OrdinaryLife]

This could be a repeat news post, but I didn't see it anywhere here.

Judge ruled child can see a therapist on January 15th. Next Court date is set for January 29th.

www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2009/01/15/8029496-sun.html (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2009/01/15/8029496-sun.html)

Brief update.

[Oklahoma Mike]

I have had strong opinions regarding this case since the beginning but didn't think it worth voiceing but what the hey. . .
The main thing that bothers me, and all I know are from news reports, is LE from the beginning seem determined that this LITTLE BOY is a master criminal. The Joker, or Doc Oc come to life. Bringing him into court in ankle chains was so unnecessary and over the top. I mean, what's the kid gonna' do? Overpower the baliif with his kung fu moves, dive out the window into the front seat of his Aston-Martin and drive to his underground base full of atomic weapons? This is a LITTLE KID!
I am not argueing for his innocence or guilt because I don't know. If he did kill 2 people he should NOT just walk out. He needs to be either treated and/or punished if found gulilty. Maybe he is an 8-y.o. boy who has committed murder. but he is STILL an 8-y.o. boy and even the early talk (since died away)of trying him as an adult was riciculous and would never fly. Try him under juvenile laws and if convicted apply the punishment the law calls for. Maybe someday he will be as dangerous as Hannibil Lecter, but for now he's not.

[mysteriew]

I personally don't have the same confidence in the reliability of Tanya's statement and I don't believe LE or a judge will either. After watching case after case unfold here on the pages of Websleuth's and in the media, I view anything she says as a witness in this case as, tainted.

The first report to LE was, that I saw, "Tim told her the boy was calling him." It wasn't until later, the next day I believe, that she claimed to have heard the child's voice. But, by the time the revelation came out that she'd actually heard the child's voice, she already had a ve$ted interest in WANTING the child to be the shooter.

In Tanya's earliest phone interviews about the crime, she made claims that her husband was the 'only bread winner' of the family. By the time she met with the family of the other victim, she already had it in her sites to sue the game manufacturers. "What video games does he play?" She also stopped in the middle of her interview with LE, when they inquired about Tim's OTHER women. She then lawyered up and refused subsequent requests by LE to talk to her, 'Talk to my lawyer.' She wouldn't even give them Tim's cell phone number.

Grieving wife won't talk to LE but referred them to her lawyer. MAJOR RED FLAG.

Oh, I'm not sure she had anything to do with the actual murders. But, she does plan to profit off them. However, the only way she can profit off her husband's death is IF the child is declared the killer.

The time line means NOTHING. It just proves what time the killings happened. It does NOT prove who the shooter was. Just like the GSR doesn't prove anything except that the child was at the scene of the crime, which he admitted he stumbled onto.

JMHO
fran

PS......points to ponder............from child's interview...........'does anyone come over while you're home alone?' ' No, just grandpa sometimes.' or '....a white car 'like grandpa's.'' Further along in questioning he mentioned another 22 LR in the home, '.......grandpa's, it's the same but bigger and takes the same ammo.'...........NOT EXACT quotes but close. Owner's manual to 22LR, Mossberg, automatic, empty gun case, pictured in evidence photos. Where's the gun? ;)...fran

PPS....Two guns kept in Tim's truck, only one found by LE. Where's the second gun? Why was the passenger side door open? Did someone stop to retreive a gun from behind the seat? LE found the second gun in the console. Dana said Tim kept his gun behind the seat..........fran

PPPS....I viewed on youtube people shooting the same gun as the alleged murder weapon. Not only is it clumsy even when the shooter has it propped up in front of them trying to load it quickly, it makes barely a pop. This COULD account for someone outside not hearing shots fired inside a closed house. But it ALSO bodes towards the neighbor NOT being able to hear the discharge as well, even WITH the front door open. IMHO, IF the neighbors heard Tim being shot, it was not the Cricket gun (or whatever) they heard discharged. It was MOST LIKELY the Mossberg, that takes the same shells as the boy's gun and is MISSING.fran

PPPPS...............Wonder how Tim's wife was able to make out the child's voice above the DOG BARK?!..............OR, IF she didn't hear the dog barking, she didn't hear the boy either:rolleyes:.........fran

The wife lawyered up???? She refused to give them his phone number???? (though if he was on the phone to her at the time of the shooting, the phone should have been at the scene and therefore now in their possession)

Come on! Someone shoots and kills your husband, and when LE starts asking hard questions instead of demanding justice you lawyer up???? Definately something wrong here.

[oceanblueeyes]

The wife lawyered up???? She refused to give them his phone number???? (though if he was on the phone to her at the time of the shooting, the phone should have been at the scene and therefore now in their possession)

Come on! Someone shoots and kills your husband, and when LE starts asking hard questions instead of demanding justice you lawyer up???? Definitely something wrong here.

The only lawyer I know that Tanya got is a civil lawyer.

Seems she is going to sue and thinks violent video games may have come into play somewhere.

imo

[oceanblueeyes]

I have had strong opinions regarding this case since the beginning but didn't think it worth voiceing but what the hey. . .
The main thing that bothers me, and all I know are from news reports, is LE from the beginning seem determined that this LITTLE BOY is a master criminal. The Joker, or Doc Oc come to life. Bringing him into court in ankle chains was so unnecessary and over the top. I mean, what's the kid gonna' do? Overpower the baliif with his kung fu moves, dive out the window into the front seat of his Aston-Martin and drive to his underground base full of atomic weapons? This is a LITTLE KID!
I am not argueing for his innocence or guilt because I don't know. If he did kill 2 people he should NOT just walk out. He needs to be either treated and/or punished if found guilty. Maybe he is an 8-y.o. boy who has committed murder. but he is STILL an 8-y.o. boy and even the early talk (since died away)of trying him as an adult was ridiculous and would never fly. Try him under juvenile laws and if convicted apply the punishment the law calls for. Maybe someday he will be as dangerous as Hannibil Lecter, but for now he's not.

I don't think he was a master criminal at all and he didn't have to be. No master criminal shoots 10 times when killing two unarmed men. Shooting two unsuspecting men who had no clue or warning this was going to happen to them is like picking off ducks sitting on a pond. All of this happened when the shooter was within feet of them. 24 feet at the furtherest and closer with the other shots. It takes no skill or expertise to bring down anyone who does not have a way to protect themselves. If Tim had run back toward the truck he would have been shot in the back or the head. He was trapped. I think that Tim didn't exactly know where the gunfire was coming from. He may have thought that it was from the vicinity of the doorway and the only thing he could do was try to come up on the left side of the house hoping to flatten his body up against the home and out of the line of gunfire but the gunman was waiting for him on the porch using the ivy bushes as a blind imo.

I am sure the rules of the court must pertain to all defendants no matter their age. If it were not the rule then Judge Roca, who is sitting right there would have him brought in without shackles and handcuffs. He is not the typical juvenile defendant anyway. He is charged with two premeditated homicides. The court has courtroom rules concerning how defendants are to be brought in and they enforce those rules, no matter who the defendant happens to be or what age.


imoo

[Bobbisangel]

The evidence in this case is going to tell the tale in my opinion. I don't for a second believe that LE was out to get this 8 yr old boy. That would be just insane. It seems that there was enough evidence that pointed to him or something pointed to him anyway. Most of those officers probably have kids or grandkids and it probably wasn't one bit fun taking this little boy to the police station. We can all have our opinions but in the end it will be the evidence that will determine whether this little boy committed two murders or not.

[azmama]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/...PskovUDB5G2ocA

The now 9-year-old boy was found incompetent to stand trial. This is only the expert hired for the defense. I don't think we have learned what the State's expert evaluated.

If he agrees with the defense then there will be no problem but what if he doesn't agree and one says, yes, and then other says, no, what happens then?


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Gunshot Residue Found on Boy's Clothing.

Confession of AZ boy accused in double murder won't be used

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/no...yxRXrvMJg.cspx

In court documents released this morning, prosecutors agreed not to use the statements unless the boy takes the stand in his own defense and contradicts them.

Prosecutors said their decision doesn't mean they agree the statements were illegally obtained.


Here's a petition for little Child Romero's release into his mother's custody and/or other family members deemed responsible by the DA and the boy's Guardian Ad Litem.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/hel...d-child-romero

I thought there was new news, but we have discussed all of these topics at great length.... with the exception of the petition.

Three of your links are broken, I couldn't find the petition on the site you showed, the link for that is one of the broken ones.

I haven't seen any new news out of St. John! I keep checking back here.....

[MeoW333]

I have had strong opinions regarding this case since the beginning but didn't think it worth voiceing but what the hey. . .
The main thing that bothers me, and all I know are from news reports, is LE from the beginning seem determined that this LITTLE BOY is a master criminal. The Joker, or Doc Oc come to life. Bringing him into court in ankle chains was so unnecessary and over the top. I mean, what's the kid gonna' do? Overpower the baliif with his kung fu moves, dive out the window into the front seat of his Aston-Martin and drive to his underground base full of atomic weapons? This is a LITTLE KID!
I am not argueing for his innocence or guilt because I don't know. If he did kill 2 people he should NOT just walk out. He needs to be either treated and/or punished if found gulilty. Maybe he is an 8-y.o. boy who has committed murder. but he is STILL an 8-y.o. boy and even the early talk (since died away)of trying him as an adult was riciculous and would never fly. Try him under juvenile laws and if convicted apply the punishment the law calls for. Maybe someday he will be as dangerous as Hannibil Lecter, but for now he's not.

Welcome to Websleuths, Oklahoma Mike! :)
I agree with what you are saying; i believe at one point an article mentioned that the boy's defense attorney, Brewer asked if the shackles could be removed. I agree that an 8 year old boy in the presence of Sheriff's deputies and security is not a threat. If he was a threat, we would have heard stories of him acting out in the courtroom or attacking psychologists or others while incarcerated. Even though theres a gag order, those types of things would have leaked out.
They're just following procedure, yet i know of someplaces that just bring adults to court in handcuffs attached to waist chains, no ankle shackles. It probably varies by what area one is from.
I'm waiting on more information from this case, too.

[Fairy1]

Welcome to Websleuths, Oklahoma Mike! :)
I agree with what you are saying; i believe at one point an article mentioned that the boy's defense attorney, Brewer asked if the shackles could be removed. I agree that an 8 year old boy in the presence of Sheriff's deputies and security is not a threat. If he was a threat, we would have heard stories of him acting out in the courtroom or attacking psychologists or others while incarcerated. Even though theres a gag order, those types of things would have leaked out.
They're just following procedure, yet i know of someplaces that just bring adults to court in handcuffs attached to waist chains, no ankle shackles. It probably varies by what area one is from.
I'm waiting on more information from this case, too.

We definitely do need more info. But seriously, shackles on an 8-year-old? They have no idea how to handle this case.

[azmama]

Hmmmmm I will have to talk to my Mom, she took in a teen age girl, a runaway friend of my sisters years after I moved out, she was in and out of juvie, I will ask if she was shackled.

I guess it would just be guess work either way, she did not murder anyone, just a pain in the butt, run away teenager! Couldn't keep her life together....

[PigTails]

Use of Restraints Contract guards and secure facilities under contract with the INS or that have signed interagency agreements with the INS, as a regular course of action, restrain the INS's unaccompanied non-delinquent juveniles during transport. All four of the secure facilities we visited had written policy that allowed staff to handcuff, and in some cases, shackle all juveniles, including the INS's unaccompanied juveniles, during transport. For example, the Gila County Youth Detention Center, a contract detention facility in Arizona, has a standing policy that all juveniles, including INS detainees, will be handcuffed and shackled during transport.
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/INS/e0109/chapter2.htm

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/INS/e0109/chapter2.htm

Thank you, PigTails

I knew this was a customary procedure that applies to all.

They will not make any allowances for one and not the other.

[azmama]

Well, I can accept LE and the courts abiding by the regulations, if they were to follow ALL of the rules and regs, and since day one, they have made many exceptions, we all believe that (I think), or am I wrong on this point?

They should be following ALL of the regulations, including those tossed aside in the investigation, questioning, searching, judicial decisions and the ones that are being broken in holding this boy right this very minute, if that is not pick and choose, I don't know what is!
We are now waaaaaay past the 45 day limit of holding this child!

Are the breaking of all of those NOT making an exception?
They are all the laws here in AZ....They should not be able to pick and choose which they follow, and they are. The continual pick and choose they are doing about all of these is going to add to the likelyhood of it all being thrown out, buy hey, why not?
It was all bungled since the beginning, why "make an exception" and try to adhere to all of the rules now?

There is really no excuse for this.

That all said, IF this boy is guilty, which I begrudging admit that he MAY be (but do not believe he is), he will walk, because of LE and now the courts shoddy work! On the other side of the coin, IF he is innocent, there is very real damage being done to his psyshe now, right? Is all of this ok with everyone? LE in general not following it's own code.....Now THAT is a travesty!

**sorry if my thoughts are redundant.....** :)

[PigTails]

Forgive me if this has been posted:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258


This is a public page set up for this case.

[PigTails]

Well, I can accept LE and the courts abiding by the regulations, if they were to follow ALL of the rules and regs, and since day one, they have not, we all believe that (I think)!

They should be following ALL of the regulations, including those tossed aside in the investigation, questioning, searching, judicial decisions and the ones that are being broken in holding this boy right this very minute!
We are now waaaaaay past the 45 day limit!

Are the breaking of those NOT making an exception in each case?
They are all the laws here in AZ....They should not be able to pick and choose which they follow, and they are. The continual pick and choose they are doing about all of these is going to add to the likelyhood of it all being thrown out, buy hey, why not?
It was all bungled since the beginning, why "make an exception" and try to adhere to all of the rules now?

There is really no excuse for this.

That all said, IF this boy is guilty, which I begrudging admit that he MAY be (but do not believe he is), he will walk, because of LE and now the courts shoddy work! On the other side of the coin, IF he is innocent, there is very real damage being done to his psyshe now, right? Is all of this ok with everyone? LE in general not following it's own code.....Now THAT is a travesty!

I agree. . . guilty or not, this boy's rights have been trampled on. It seems that adults have more rights in this country and I for one an appalled by this case.

[Linda7NJ]

Well, I can accept LE and the courts abiding by the regulations, if they were to follow ALL of the rules and regs, and since day one, they have made many exceptions, we all believe that (I think), or am I wrong on that?!

They should be following ALL of the regulations, including those tossed aside in the investigation, questioning, searching, judicial decisions and the ones that are being broken in holding this boy right this very minute, if that is not pick and choose, I don't know what is!
We are now waaaaaay past the 45 day limit of holding this child!

Are the breaking of all of those NOT making an exception?
They are all the laws here in AZ....They should not be able to pick and choose which they follow, and they are. The continual pick and choose they are doing about all of these is going to add to the likelihood of it all being thrown out, buy hey, why not?
It was all bungled since the beginning, why "make an exception" and try to adhere to all of the rules now?

There is really no excuse for this.

That all said, IF this boy is guilty, which I begrudging admit that he MAY be (but do not believe he is), he will walk, because of LE and now the courts shoddy work! On the other side of the coin, IF he is innocent, there is very real damage being done to his psyche now, right? Is all of this ok with everyone? LE in general not following it's own code.....Now THAT is a travesty!

**sorry if my thoughts are redundant.....** :)

Nope, no laws broke. The meter on the 45 days was stopped to do the evaluations on the boy.

I seriously and highly dpubt this child is innocent. The court did nothing wrong and neither did LE. imo

[azmama]

Forgive me if this has been posted:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258


This is a public page set up for this case.

Hey, thanks, I will take a look :)

[PigTails]

Nope, no laws broke. The meter on the 45 days was stopped to do the evaluations on the boy.

I seriously and highly dpubt this child is innocent. The court did nothing wrong and neither did LE. imo

What did LE do right??? Question the child with no legal or parental assistance. Collect his clothing for testing the day after. Help me out. Shoddy work is not illegal, granted.



Did LE ever fully check the claims that there was a white car???

[azmama]

Linda7NJ

Nope, no laws broke. The meter on the 45 days was stopped to do the evaluations on the boy.

I seriously and highly dpubt this child is innocent. The court did nothing wrong and neither did LE. imo

Sorry, I didn't know how to just quote your little bit....

But, really, I mean, come on, really? Are you seriously saying that you believe that LE et. all followed all Arizona rules, regs, and laws to a T?

Really, I think you are just so sure the suspect is guilty, it doesn't matter to you, because right, wrong or indifferent to the outcome of the case, LE and the courts there are so woefully off base, I would think twice about ever even visiting there! They can justify all they want, but the fact is, the "rules don't apply" in St. John, AZ.

I am just stunned!

.....I am not trying to argue the case with you, I am just so suprised that you think they are all by the book.....

[PigTails]

Nope, no laws broke. The meter on the 45 days was stopped to do the evaluations on the boy.

I seriously and highly dpubt this child is innocent. The court did nothing wrong and neither did LE. imoHave you read these interviews???





http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf (http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf)



http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Neckel.pdf

[fran]

I agree. . . guilty or not, this boy's rights have been trampled on. It seems that adults have more rights in this country and I for one an appalled by this case.

Me too,..........APPALLED!
By this PD
By this pros
By this judge
By this court

Pathetic, simply pathetic the way they've treated this child. To top it off, this Barney Fiffe police chief ran to the press the second he could and put the CHILD'S ............BOGUS confession on the airwaves for EVERYONE to see. Heck, he didn't even block out the child's face!

Sure backfired though, didn't it!?:rolleyes: Now the entire WORLD knows what a bunch of yay-hoos run that PD.

To add insult to injury, the local courts are putting ONLINE,.......every little court document they can, WITH the CHILD'S NAME!.......they block out dead people's credit card numbers, but put this CHILD'S NAME out there.

This CHILD does NOT deserve to be treated this way! I only hope and pray that a GOOD civil rights attorney and VICTIM'S advocate attorney is watching this unfold and will contact this child's mom. Believe me, IF I was on a jury hearing all this BS they've done to this child, he'd definitely win his case against them!

JMHO
fran

PS........oh, yeah, I do NOT THINK the child did this crime. Too many skelatons in the victim's closets. People choose to IGNORE 'em, but they're there none the less, dangling before us.....just need to open them eyes to see......;)...fran

[PigTails]

Have you signed the petition????

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-release-9-year-old-child-romero

[azmama]

Amen Fran, you said it much better than I!

Yes, I have signed it, and sent it to all of my friends and family.

[PigTails]

Amen Fran, you said it much better than I!

Yes, I have signed it, and sent it to all of my friends and family.Cool beans! :blowkiss:

[fran]

Have you signed the petition????

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-release-9-year-old-child-romero

Yes! I just did and forwarded it to some friends!

:)
fran

[Fairy1]

Thank you, PigTails

I knew this was a customary procedure that applies to all.

They will not make any allowances for one and not the other.

Let's be honest, no "procedures" anywhere were established with 8-year-olds in mind. There have been many missteps in this case so far and I can't help thinking there will be many more. We cannot overlook the fact that there is a young child at the root of the "procedures" and until we have more facts, he should have the benefit of the doubt. IMO, of course.

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18549439/detail.html


Ruling: Judge Can Address Murder Charge In Trial Of Boy, 9

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- An Apache County judge can rule on a prosecutors' request to drop a murder charge against a 9-year-old St. Johns boy, the state Court of Appeals said.

Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca has said he wouldn't rule on any substantive issue in the case until the boy's competency is determined, relying on a rule used in adult proceedings.

The appeals court says while Roca believed he was precluded from considering the prosecutors' motion, the appeals court disagreed.

[oceanblueeyes]

Let's be honest, no "procedures" anywhere were established with 8-year-olds in mind. There have been many missteps in this case so far and I can't help thinking there will be many more. We cannot overlook the fact that there is a young child at the root of the "procedures" and until we have more facts, he should have the benefit of the doubt. IMO, of course.

I am not sure that is true. Cases against 8 year olds are usually kept pretty confidential because they rarely involve murder but here is a link where two ten year old boys were brought in shackled and cuffed so I think it is pretty much standard procedure when they have been arrested and charged with a crime, especially a violent one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xakaLeLecvo&feature=related

[oceanblueeyes]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%209TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

I think things are heating up now.

Note, almost 400 pages of discovery from the DPR Investigation.

Also it is interesting that they also have a CD from myspace.com AND

a interview with Eryn Bloomfield.

imoo

[azmama]

Hiya OBE, wow, interesting! I was looking around that myspace the other day, I have only looked once though. Eryn's photo is on it.

I am so hungry for news from up there! It is eating at me, lol. If only I put that much time into my studies, lol.

[chiperoni]

Me too,..........APPALLED!
By this PD
By this pros
By this judge
By this court

Pathetic, simply pathetic the way they've treated this child. To top it off, this Barney Fiffe police chief ran to the press the second he could and put the CHILD'S ............BOGUS confession on the airwaves for EVERYONE to see. Heck, he didn't even block out the child's face!

Sure backfired though, didn't it!?:rolleyes: Now the entire WORLD knows what a bunch of yay-hoos run that PD.

To add insult to injury, the local courts are putting ONLINE,.......every little court document they can, WITH the CHILD'S NAME!.......they block out dead people's credit card numbers, but put this CHILD'S NAME out there.

This CHILD does NOT deserve to be treated this way! I only hope and pray that a GOOD civil rights attorney and VICTIM'S advocate attorney is watching this unfold and will contact this child's mom. Believe me, IF I was on a jury hearing all this BS they've done to this child, he'd definitely win his case against them!

JMHO
fran

PS........oh, yeah, I do NOT THINK the child did this crime. Too many skelatons in the victim's closets. People choose to IGNORE 'em, but they're there none the less, dangling before us.....just need to open them eyes to see......;)...fran

I agree with your fine post especially the PS. Unfortunately the victims did have too many skeletons in their closets and this child has been judged unfairly. The boarder had a drug arrest (in the nineties) and according to the newspaper was a suspected drug dealer. The link was posted and is now obsolete. When the crime was committed the child was only eight years old. There is a big difference between and eight year old and ten year old cognitively and physically. Visit a thrid grade class and fifth grade class and see for yourself. Next we'll have a six year old in shackles. When juvenile delinquents and non-juvenile delinquents are not separated according to law, this does not mean the law is morally right or even sensible. That means politicians are saving money and the judge is going along with it.

[6angels]

can someone tell me what myspace? maybe link me....

[6angels]

I think I found the moms myspace.

It is private but does say
"Praying For The truth and wishing the hatefulness would stop. Please release my lil man!"

[6angels]

I think I missed something ( have not beenable to keep up! the threads go so fast) but on this link it says
Authorities believe that the murders were premeditated by Romero's son, whom had recently received a disciplinary spanking from his mother-in-law by request of his father.
http://www.mahalo.com/Timothy_Romans

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree with your fine post especially the PS. Unfortunately the victims did have too many skeletons in their closets and this child has been judged unfairly. The boarder had a drug arrest (in the nineties) and according to the newspaper was a suspected drug dealer. The link was posted and is now obsolete. When the crime was committed the child was only eight years old. There is a big difference between and eight year old and ten year old cognitively and physically. Visit a thrid grade class and fifth grade class and see for yourself. Next we'll have a six year old in shackles. When juvenile delinquents and non-juvenile delinquents are not separated according to law, this does not mean the law is morally right or even sensible. That means politicians are saving money and the judge is going along with it.

What skeletons did Vinnie Romero have in his past?

Neither of these men had any warning of their impending deaths. No drugs were found nor did either one of them have alcohol or drugs in their systems when they died.

imo

[chiperoni]

Vinnie Romero had a man live in his home who had a history of drug use and was a suspected drug dealer. The child was eight years old. That is a major skeleton because the boarder interacted with that child everyday. We still do not know all the circumstances of the house and the people who were there after the killings because there is a gag order.

[oceanblueeyes]

Vinnie Romero had a man live in his home who had a history of drug use and was a suspected drug dealer. The child was eight years old. That is a major skeleton because the boarder interacted with that child everyday. We still do not know all the circumstances of the house and the people who were there after the killings because there is a gag order.

Tim's arrest on drugs was in the 90s when he lived in San Carlos.

He had only been working for the power plant in St. John for the past year.

So how would Vinnie know about Tim's past years ago when that was in a town 170 miles from where Vinnie had always lived?

Tim only stayed there Monday thru Wednesday. I highly doubt there was a lot of interaction between Tim and the boy. Tim was said to go to the local bar when he got off work everyday.

Tiffany told the police officers, that no one used drugs there and that is bolster by the autopsy fact that no drugs where found in the system of either victim. Nor were there any drugs found in the home. Tim had no warning that he needed to stash his drugs before he was murdered. He didn't need any warning about that because no drugs were found there.

On his key chain it said "Drugs Kill" that doesn't sound like a drug dealer's calling card to me.

imoo

[colette]

I think I missed something ( have not beenable to keep up! the threads go so fast) but on this link it says
Authorities believe that the murders were premeditated by Romero's son, whom had recently received a disciplinary spanking from his mother-in-law by request of his father.
http://www.mahalo.com/Timothy_Romans


6Angels, that blog got it wrong. It should be spanking from his stepmother not mother-in-law.

[Trino]

Today is another hearing. Updates?

[oceanblueeyes]

Today is another hearing. Updates?

None so far, the hearing will get underway at noon EST.

imoo

[kgeaux]

I think I missed something ( have not beenable to keep up! the threads go so fast) but on this link it says
Authorities believe that the murders were premeditated by Romero's son, whom had recently received a disciplinary spanking from his mother-in-law by request of his father.
http://www.mahalo.com/Timothy_Romans

Boy, that's one poorly worded sentence. The child has a mother-in-law? Was it his step-mom? Or was he spanked by his mother's mother? That blogger's mind must've been on a coffee break!

This poor little child. I know what he has done is horrendous. But when I picture him sitting in that big old chair at the police station, with his little legs swinging, all I want to do is grab him and hug him.

[Linda7NJ]

Public Hearing Postponed

[Trino]

Public Hearing Postponed

What is going on that the hearing would be postponed?

[oceanblueeyes]

What is going on that the hearing would be postponed?

Who really knows. I think the defense is wanting time to look through the 536 pages of documents they just received from the State, on the 27th.

[chiperoni]

Tim's arrest on drugs was in the 90s when he lived in San Carlos.

He had only been working for the power plant in St. John for the past year.

So how would Vinnie know about Tim's past years ago when that was in a town 170 miles from where Vinnie had always lived?

Tim only stayed there Monday thru Wednesday. I highly doubt there was a lot of interaction between Tim and the boy. Tim was said to go to the local bar when he got off work everyday.

Tiffany told the police officers, that no one used drugs there and that is bolster by the autopsy fact that no drugs where found in the system of either victim. Nor were there any drugs found in the home. Tim had no warning that he needed to stash his drugs before he was murdered. He didn't need any warning about that because no drugs were found there.

On his key chain it said "Drugs Kill" that doesn't sound like a drug dealer's calling card to me.

imoo

Was Tiffany with Tim all the time to know if he didn't take drugs...It has not been positively verified who was in the house right after the murders. Were the vehicles searched right away? According to a local news article Tim was a "known drug dealer". If Tim headed to the bar everyday after work I guess that really shows he was a great roomer and responsible member of the household. Was it really only Monday-Wednesday nights he stayed? Friends of his wife have said that he moved off the Apache San Pedro Reservation and that he had met someone else and was divorcing. Mr. Romero had to be aware of all this drama if he was living in his home.

[Trino]

While I have no idea if this is true, a Topix poster said the boy was let out.

[Trino]

Was Tiffany with Tim all the time to know if he didn't take drugs...It has not been positively verified who was in the house right after the murders. Were the vehicles searched right away? According to a local news article Tim was a "known drug dealer". If Tim headed to the bar everyday after work I guess that really shows he was a great roomer and responsible member of the household. Was it really only Monday-Wednesday nights he stayed? Friends of his wife have said that he moved off the Apache San Pedro Reservation and that he had met someone else and was divorcing. Mr. Romero had to be aware of all this drama if he was living in his home.

There is no evidence except from "Candy" that says he was divorcing. There are no divorce proceedings from either Tim or his wife. It appears that TR was having an affair, which was not known to his wife until Candy spilled the beans.

As to Tim being a drug dealer, again, it's hearsay. Evidence is what's important, and there is no evidence to support this other than an arrest in the early 90's.

[chiperoni]

There is no evidence except from "Candy" that says he was divorcing. There are no divorce proceedings from either Tim or his wife. It appears that TR was having an affair, which was not known to his wife until Candy spilled the beans.

As to Tim being a drug dealer, again, it's hearsay. Evidence is what's important, and there is no evidence to support this other than an arrest in the early 90's.

TR was having an affair and going to the local bar everyday after work. Not conducive to a good home life or a good influence on his friend Vincent and his household. It was published in a local newspaper in the news section that TR was a suspected drug dealer. Newspapers do publish hearsay, but they usually have reliable sources because of lawsuits. So far I don't know of any denials from friends or family.

[Fairy1]

There is no evidence except from "Candy" that says he was divorcing. There are no divorce proceedings from either Tim or his wife. It appears that TR was having an affair, which was not known to his wife until Candy spilled the beans.

As to Tim being a drug dealer, again, it's hearsay. Evidence is what's important, and there is no evidence to support this other than an arrest in the early 90's.

For the most part, we don't have any idea what evidence there is either way. We do know that Tim's wife lawyered up almost immediately. And we know that he did have a drug arrest in his past.

Indian reservations are "sovereign nations." I'm quite certain that records of any subsequent arrests or convictions on the reservation would not be available to the public outside of the reservation. Unless it comes out during the proceedings pertaining to this particular case, we will likely never know what Tim was up to in the years between his prior arrest and his death.

[chiperoni]

We really just don't know what exactly happened. What was this boy's home life like in the last few months? What was his relationship with his stepmother and Tim? Did his relationship with Vincent change when Tim moved in? What was the relationship of the stepmother and Vincent (domestic disturbance calls). Why didn't the police search all vehicles on the property? Were there drugs hidden or removed. It is correct that both men were free of drugs when autopsied. They were gunned down just returning from work?? When I am asking these questions it's about an eight year old child who has been accused of killing two people. He had to be a very confused child when all this happened. I still think we have to wait for the gag order to be lifted. The police made some major mistakes and we may never know. The tragedy of all of this is that two men were killed and an eight year old has been accused as their heartless murder. There has to be more than that .

[Trino]

We really just don't know what exactly happened. What was this boy's home life like in the last few months? What was his relationship with his stepmother and Tim? Did his relationship with Vincent change when Tim moved in? What was the relationship of the stepmother and Vincent (domestic disturbance calls). Why didn't the police search all vehicles on the property? Were there drugs hidden or removed. It is correct that both men were free of drugs when autopsied. They were gunned down just returning from work?? When I am asking these questions it's about an eight year old child who has been accused of killing two people. He had to be a very confused child when all this happened. I still think we have to wait for the gag order to be lifted. The police made some major mistakes and we may never know. The tragedy of all of this is that two men were killed and an eight year old has been accused as their heartless murder. There has to be more than that .

The domestic disturbance calls were from V and his first wife, Eryn. No evidence of drugs was found either on the property or the men.

Why does MUST there be more to this? Is it because it's never happened before?

[oceanblueeyes]

Was Tiffany with Tim all the time to know if he didn't take drugs...It has not been positively verified who was in the house right after the murders. Were the vehicles searched right away? According to a local news article Tim was a "known drug dealer". If Tim headed to the bar everyday after work I guess that really shows he was a great roomer and responsible member of the household. Was it really only Monday-Wednesday nights he stayed? Friends of his wife have said that he moved off the Apache San Pedro Reservation and that he had met someone else and was divorcing. Mr. Romero had to be aware of all this drama if he was living in his home.


He was not a responsible member of the household. He was only a boarder who rented a room there three days a week.

[oceanblueeyes]

The domestic disturbance calls were from V and his first wife, Eryn. No evidence of drugs was found either on the property or the men.

Why does MUST there be more to this? Is it because it's never happened before?

I actually think the domestic call was placed when Vinnie was afraid that Eryn was going to kidnap the boy. Tiffany told officers that there was a call made to LE about that.

You are absolutely right and we all know that sometimes the past is hard to out live. Just because of his one arrest back in the 90s there may have been an assumption that carried on ,even if not true.

The one thing for certain is they may have suspicioned it when they arrested him for using drugs in the 90s but they never had one thing to substantiate it because no arrest was ever made against him for that. Not in San Carlos and not in St. John.

imoo

[Trino]

One thing which has not been discussed and which we'll probably never know is the boy's mental capacity. I wonder if he may have been a special education child. It found it odd that the father asked his priest if he should buy a rifle for the boy.

[chiperoni]

The domestic disturbance calls were from V and his first wife, Eryn. No evidence of drugs was found either on the property or the men.

Why does MUST there be more to this? Is it because it's never happened before?

Trino from what I understand not all vehicles were searched immediately. Could you give me a link that LE searched all vehicles that were on the property. They have already made some major mistakes. One major mistake is the illegal confession that was thrown out. There is more to this because some people choose to believe that an eight year old child would not deliberately and calculatingly hunt their father down and an innocent roommate after school. All the reasons have been given and we don't need to rehash this. I understand your opinion and definitely want to debate in a reasonable manner. It looks like the Romero child has been granted another furlough.http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1034443

[oceanblueeyes]

Romans spokesperson speaks out.

Says this is not a case where the boy stoled a candy bar from a store.

John said boy is on furlough for a week.

Competency hearing is set for Feb. 13th.

Motion to dismiss is set up for next Thursday.


http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=19202@knxv.dayport.com




imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

Trino from what I understand not all vehicles were searched immediately. Could you give me a link that LE searched all vehicles that were on the property. They have already made some major mistakes. One major mistake is the illegal confession that was thrown out. There is more to this because some people choose to believe that an eight year old child would not deliberately and calculatingly hunt their father down and an innocent roommate after school. All the reasons have been given and we don't need to rehash this. I understand your opinion and definitely want to debate in a reasonable manner. It looks like the Romero child has been granted another furlough.http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1034443

The Judge did not throw out the confession. The DA agreed not to use it unless he testifies which he won't imo.

There was no vehicle at the crime scene but Tim's truck. It was checked.

imoo

[azmama]

Romans spokesperson speaks out.

Says this is not a case where the boy stoled a candy bar from a store.

John said boy is on furlough for a week.

imoo


His "opinion" on the matter means nothing, so what? It is not a legal opinion, it is not a professional opinion. In as much as any of us could go in front of the camera and give our opinion on the matter, I give it no merit.

The boy should have been out for a while now, and I do not believe the judge is doing it by the goodness of his heart, there are petitions etc on this and it is getting a lot more press time, LAWS must be followed, on how prisoners are kept, and why, even by the St Johns crappy system.

The lawsuit following this, if the boy is exonerated will be HUGE!

[Bobbisangel]

Was Tiffany with Tim all the time to know if he didn't take drugs...It has not been positively verified who was in the house right after the murders. Were the vehicles searched right away? According to a local news article Tim was a "known drug dealer". If Tim headed to the bar everyday after work I guess that really shows he was a great roomer and responsible member of the household. Was it really only Monday-Wednesday nights he stayed? Friends of his wife have said that he moved off the Apache San Pedro Reservation and that he had met someone else and was divorcing. Mr. Romero had to be aware of all this drama if he was living in his home.


From what I remember Tim was suspected of selling drugs at one time but it was never proven and he was never charged. So...maybe he was and maybe he wasn't...who knows. It's unfair to accuse someone of something that even the LE couldn't prove one way or another. For all we know that might have been in the 90's too.

Maybe Tim hung out at the bars for a few hours each night in order to give the family he was staying with their privacy and time to be together without a house guest there all of the time. Remember...the couple had only been married since September. Still newlyweds. Just because a guy hangs out at a bar doesn't make him a drunk. We have no idea if he drank one beer or 12.
Some people hang out at a fovorite bar for the company. I don't know about Tim planning on divorcing his wife for some other gal. Maybe he was or maybe some gal had her eye on him and thought he was going to.

[Bobbisangel]

His "opinion" on the matter means nothing, so what? It is not a legal opinion, it is not a professional opinion. In as much as any of us could go in front of the camera and give our opinion on the matter, I give it no merit.

The boy should have been out for a while now, and I do not believe the judge is doing it by the goodness of his heart, there are petitions etc on this and it is getting a lot more press time, LAWS must be followed, on how prisoners are kept, and why, even by the St Johns crappy system.

The lawsuit following this, if the boy is exonerated will be HUGE!


The man who spoke is a spokes person for Tim's family. They do have the right to give an opinion about how they feel about the boy getting a week out of Juvy. Evidentally they feel that the boy is the shooter.

If the evidence all points to the boy why should he get away without any consequences at all? If the evidence proves that this boy planned to murder his dad and Tim then that is pretty scary I think and especially at that young age. And if the murders were over the boy not bringing his homework home like he was told to do and he got disciplined for it then that is scary too. Maybe the boy didn't think he should get swats when he didn't do what dad told him to do but it shouldn't be something that a kid murders their parent and a friend over. Now days kids are killing their parents over anything that they believe or imagine is wrong or because they want something or for any pitiful reason. It's pretty scary. Kids that are killing are getting younger and younger every day.

[Trino]

His "opinion" on the matter means nothing, so what? It is not a legal opinion, it is not a professional opinion. In as much as any of us could go in front of the camera and give our opinion on the matter, I give it no merit.

The boy should have been out for a while now, and I do not believe the judge is doing it by the goodness of his heart, there are petitions etc on this and it is getting a lot more press time, LAWS must be followed, on how prisoners are kept, and why, even by the St Johns crappy system.

The lawsuit following this, if the boy is exonerated will be HUGE!

You are correct in that laws must be followed, and although I'm not second guessing the judge, what other case has granted furloughs to someone accused of murder? Strange.

There will be a lawsuit, for sure, no matter the verdict. Remember the not guilty verdict in the OJ case? Anyone can sue, despite the verdict, and in this case, I'm sure the Romans will do so. IMO this is why Tanya lawyered up.

[oceanblueeyes]

His "opinion" on the matter means nothing, so what? It is not a legal opinion, it is not a professional opinion. In as much as any of us could go in front of the camera and give our opinion on the matter, I give it no merit.

The boy should have been out for a while now, and I do not believe the judge is doing it by the goodness of his heart, there are petitions etc on this and it is getting a lot more press time, LAWS must be followed, on how prisoners are kept, and why, even by the St Johns crappy system.

The lawsuit following this, if the boy is exonerated will be HUGE!

Freedom of speech will never mean, "nothing." It doesn't matter if it isn't a legal opinion, it doesn't have to be to still carry weight. I find Big John very truthful and yes, he does have a right to voice it and if the victims are never given any semblance of justice, after being brutally murdered, we will hear more of it imo.

A Judge does not base his decisions on petitions. One of the petitions I have seen has less than a 100 people signing it and it has been out for over a week.

From what I have read the new detention center in St. John is only housing a couple of dozen or less juveniles. I would say though that they have never had to house a juvenile accused of double homicide and I hope they never have to encounter that again. This tiny rural town does not have murders and it has shattered the entire community.

To be exonerated in a civil case would mean that it be proven by his lawyers that he did not do this. If that remotely was the case and there is evidence exonerating him then Judge Roca would have held a special meeting in the criminal case and the boy's own attorney would put in a motion to dismiss the case. That has not happened. Even Wood said that he still had a client that is charged with double homicide.

It is true that this boy may never pay one bit of punishment for these crimes and the victims will be denied justice just because of their killer's age. While that is legal, I do not think it will sit well with those who mourn both of these men's death and they have every right in the world to be infuriated if this happens and voice their dismay.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

The man who spoke is a spokes person for Tim's family. They do have the right to give an opinion about how they feel about the boy getting a week out of Juvy. Evident ally they feel that the boy is the shooter.

If the evidence all points to the boy why should he get away without any consequences at all? If the evidence proves that this boy planned to murder his dad and Tim then that is pretty scary I think and especially at that young age. And if the murders were over the boy not bringing his homework home like he was told to do and he got disciplined for it then that is scary too. Maybe the boy didn't think he should get swats when he didn't do what dad told him to do but it shouldn't be something that a kid murders their parent and a friend over. Now days kids are killing their parents over anything that they believe or imagine is wrong or because they want something or for any pitiful reason. It's pretty scary. Kids that are killing are getting younger and younger every day.

I agree and what I find very telling is no one in the Romero family is speaking out in support of this boy.

It is a scary precedence being set here in this case. What it really boils down to is the age of a victim's killer can define whether justice is either denied or given. It isn't about justice imo, it is like a case that is resolved due to a technicality of being age incompetent to understand a court proceeding. IMO there will be nothing in the experts' findings that this boy suffers from some type of mental illness.

I was just reading an article where three 8 and 9 year old boys from Georgia raped a 11 year old. It is frightening the amount of violence being done by some of our young people.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

From what I remember Tim was suspected of selling drugs at one time but it was never proven and he was never charged. So...maybe he was and maybe he wasn't...who knows. It's unfair to accuse someone of something that even the LE couldn't prove one way or another. For all we know that might have been in the 90's too.

Maybe Tim hung out at the bars for a few hours each night in order to give the family he was staying with their privacy and time to be together without a house guest there all of the time. Remember...the couple had only been married since September. Still newlyweds. Just because a guy hangs out at a bar doesn't make him a drunk. We have no idea if he drank one beer or 12.
Some people hang out at a favorite bar for the company. I don't know about Tim planning on divorcing his wife for some other gal. Maybe he was or maybe some gal had her eye on him and thought he was going to.

You are so right Bobbi and that is the first thing I thought of... I think Tim tried to make himself scarce to give the new family more time for themselves.

It is sad that so much is assumed about a person when the person is no longer here to give their side of the story.

I don't think Tim was planning to divorce Tanya at all. He was just blustering because he knew Tanya was 170 miles away from him. He could tell the ladies anything he wanted. He wouldn't be the first man or woman having an affair when they are far away from their spouses.

Tiffany said Tim never came home drunk. I think he went to the bar as a way to socialize and give the Romero family their time and one thing led to another and he hooked up with Candy, I think that is her name.

I am in complete agreement with your sentence that I have bolded.

imoo

[Fairy1]

You are so right Bobbi and that is the first thing I thought of... I think Tim tried to make himself scarce to give the new family more time for themselves.

It is sad that so much is assumed about a person when the person is no longer here to give their side of the story.

I don't think Tim was planning to divorce Tanya at all. He was just blustering because he knew Tanya was 170 miles away from him. He could tell the ladies anything he wanted. He wouldn't be the first man or woman having an affair when they are far away from their spouses.

Tiffany said Tim never came home drunk. I think he went to the bar as a way to socialize and give the Romero family their time and one thing led to another and he hooked up with Candy, I think that is her name.

I am in complete agreement with your sentence that I have bolded.

imoo

Well yes it is, indeed, unfair for someone to be accused of something that LE cannot prove. We do not know if LE can PROVE this child killed these men, so let's apply that opinion fairly across the board. And let's not presume to know why Tim went to the bar every night or why he may have been cheating on his wife or what he may have been doing for extra income on the side. It's not an attempt to slander whatever character he's no longer here to defend. It's simply to show that it is possible there may have been others who wanted to end his life. Someone who had more of a beef than that they forgot to bring their homework home or got a couple of swats.

And BTW, alleged criminals - even murderers - get out on bail all the time. The fact that a young child should be "furloughed" is no cause for outrage or alarm. IMO.

[oceanblueeyes]

Well yes it is, indeed, unfair for someone to be accused of something that LE cannot prove. We do not know if LE can PROVE this child killed these men, so let's apply that opinion fairly across the board. And let's not presume to know why Tim went to the bar every night or why he may have been cheating on his wife or what he may have been doing for extra income on the side. It's not an attempt to slander whatever character he's no longer here to defend. It's simply to show that it is possible there may have been others who wanted to end his life. Someone who had more of a beef than that they forgot to bring their homework home or got a couple of swats.

And BTW, alleged criminals - even murderers - get out on bail all the time. The fact that a young child should be "furloughed" is no cause for outrage or alarm. IMO.

I really don't think that is a fair comparison, Fairy. Tim Romans was never even charged or arrested for being a drug dealer. As far as I am aware once convicted for using drugs way back in the 90s he has never been arrested for anything else. So there is nothing to support that LE had any evidence to even get probable cause on Tim, much less convict him. This boy has been arrested and charged with double homicide so the DA does think they have the evidence against him. The Judge in the boy's case said probable cause had been met.

Two entirely different things imo.

I am not outraged that he is out and about, although I certainly do understand the pain and anger of the family members who have had to endure this. I am sure they would love for their murdered loved ones to have a furlough so that they can be with them and hug them close again.

We have seen many cases here when a defendant was out on bail and how hard it was for the victim's family members to deal with that , while knowing, that they will never get time to spend with their loved ones ever again.

So, yes, I do perfectly understand why they are outraged. I think any grieving family member, would be.

imo

[chiperoni]

[QUOTE=oceanblueeyes;3246793]I really don't think that is a fair comparison, Fairy. Tim Romans was never even charged or arrested for being a drug dealer. As far as I am aware once convicted for using drugs way back in the 90s he has never been arrested for anything else. So there is nothing to support that LE had any evidence to even get probable cause on Tim, much less convict him. This boy has been arrested and charged with double homicide so the DA does think they have the evidence against him. The Judge in the boy's case said probable cause had been met.

Two entirely different things imo.

I am not outraged that he is out and about, although I certainly do understand the pain and anger of the family members who have had to endure this. I am sure they would love for their murdered loved ones to have a furlough so that they can be with them and hug them close again.

We have seen many cases here when a defendant was out on bail and how hard it was for the victim's family members to deal with that , while knowing, that they will never get time to spend with their loved ones ever again.

So, yes, I do perfectly understand why they are outraged. I think any grieving family member, would be.

imo[/QUOTE Arresting an eight eight year old boy as a murderer (btw no history of violence) and using a botched confession is much worse than being accused of being a drug dealer. It was printed in the local newspaper that Tim was a known drug dealer in the area which is hearsay, but I don't see any public outrage or slander suits from the family or community. Tim had been living on the reservation under Apache law. If you have a link to show that the Apache LE shared any records concerning Tim please indicate. I want the victims' family to discover the truth too but not on the back of an eight year old child. At the very least, if the accused is guilty, we should know all the circumstances. We need to wait and hopefully we'll get the truth. I hope there isn't a coverup.

[oceanblueeyes]

[QUOTE=chiperoni[/QUOTE Arresting an eight eight year old boy as a murderer (btw no history of violence) and using a botched confession is much worse than being accused of being a drug dealer. It was printed in the local newspaper that Tim was a known drug dealer in the area which is hearsay, but I don't see any public outrage or slander suits from the family or community. Tim had been living on the reservation under Apache law. If you have a link to show that the Apache LE shared any records concerning Tim please indicate. I want the victims' family to discover the truth too but not on the back of an eight year old child. At the very least, if the accused is guilty, we should know all the circumstances. We need to wait and hopefully we'll get the truth. I hope there isn't a cover up.[/QUOTE]

Lots of defendants have had no history of criminal violence before the ultimate act of homicide and they are way older than this boy.

Actually Judge Roca did not even consider the confession in the probable cause hearing. When the DA tried to enter it Judge Roca didn't allow them to enter it and told them to give the DVD to the defense attorney instead.

We have no idea what Tanya's civil attorney will encompass in his lawsuit.

I don't think the family members want to place this on the back of this child but if that is where the truth lays, then the truth is truth, no matter who's back it rests on.

I find it extremely far fetched that this is a conspiracy or a cover up. Any DA in this country would rather have an older brute for a defendant. They would go for the death penalty and probably get it if it were an adult. Now they struggle to even get some semblance of justice for these two men due to the age of the defendant.

The media prints many erroneous things. For example, when Laci was killed the first thing out by the media was, there was blood and vomit on Laci's mop and Howard Stern murdered Daniel Smith and Anna Nicole. Totally untrue. I see everyday where misinformation is put out. Even Nancy Grace does it often and never retracts it either.

imoo

[chiperoni]

Yes the media does print many things from unreliable sources but usually there is public outrage, letters to the editor, or slander suits if it is incorrect. This was in a local paper. The Laci Peterson description was corrected in the newspaper when the evidence was presented. We need to wait to hear all the evidence in this case. We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see.

[fran]

Yes the media does print many things from unreliable sources but usually there is public outrage, letters to the editor, or slander suits if it is incorrect. This was in a local paper. The Laci Peterson description was corrected in the newspaper when the evidence was presented. We need to wait to hear all the evidence in this case. We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see.

FINALLY! A voice of reason! "We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see"Thank you chiperoni!

No Ballistics, NOT complete finger-print evidence, NO dna report, missing weapons, drug addict relatives, bumbled investigation, widow NOT acting like a 'recent' widowed person, lawyered up spouces refusing to talk to LE, coerced confessions, bad blood between victims and various persons, cheating husband, psycho b/f of ONE of cheating husband's 'other' women, random gunshot holes in victim's vehicle by drug addict cousin, lack of LE to look for get-away car, lack of investigation (that WE know of), yet..................there are those that just know the child is guilty.:waitasec:

:confused:Where is the EVIDENCE?:rolleyes:

JMHO
fran

PS..........Wonder why grandpa LeRoy found it necessary to meet Big John (Roman family spokesman) hours away from home? Wonder what was sooooo secret it couldn't have been said by phone and they had to meet so far away?:deal:

Oh, yeah, just a coinky-dink, I'm sure. ;) fran

[Openmind]

FINALLY! A voice of reason! "We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see"Thank you chiperoni!

No Ballistics, NOT complete finger-print evidence, NO dna report, missing weapons, drug addict relatives, bumbled investigation, widow NOT acting like a 'recent' widowed person, lawyered up spouces refusing to talk to LE, coerced confessions, bad blood between victims and various persons, cheating husband, psycho b/f of ONE of cheating husband's 'other' women, random gunshot holes in victim's vehicle by drug addict cousin, lack of LE to look for get-away car, lack of investigation (that WE know of), yet..................there are those that just know the child is guilty.:waitasec:

:confused:Where is the EVIDENCE?:rolleyes:

JMHO
fran

PS..........Wonder why grandpa LeRoy found it necessary to meet Big John (Roman family spokesman) hours away from home? Wonder what was sooooo secret it couldn't have been said by phone and they had to meet so far away?:deal:

Oh, yeah, just a coinky-dink, I'm sure. ;) fran

Totally agree.

[oceanblueeyes]

FINALLY! A voice of reason! "We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see"Thank you chiperoni!

No Ballistics, NOT complete finger-print evidence, NO dna report, missing weapons, drug addict relatives, bumbled investigation, widow NOT acting like a 'recent' widowed person, lawyered up spouces refusing to talk to LE, coerced confessions, bad blood between victims and various persons, cheating husband, psycho b/f of ONE of cheating husband's 'other' women, random gunshot holes in victim's vehicle by drug addict cousin, lack of LE to look for get-away car, lack of investigation (that WE know of), yet..................there are those that just know the child is guilty.:waitasec:

:confused:Where is the EVIDENCE?:rolleyes:

JMHO
fran

PS..........Wonder why grandpa LeRoy found it necessary to meet Big John (Roman family spokesman) hours away from home? Wonder what was sooooo secret it couldn't have been said by phone and they had to meet so far away?:deal:

Oh, yeah, just a coinky-dink, I'm sure. ;) fran

The evidence is within the well of the court.

Where are all of Wood's motions demanding more diwcovery now? It is February. The evidence was all to be back by the end of January.
Where is Wood's motion to dismiss? That is common practice for attorneys especially if they think the State doesn't have the evidence against their client?

I would think these men have a lot to talk about and since the media seems to keep up with Big John when he is around, I highly doubt they would want to have their heartfelt conversation in St. John or San Carlos. Maybe they were discussing the best way to support the families who are grieving and continuing to be in emotional pain. Maybe they are just two men tied by a bond their never wanted to have? Both of them losing someone they loved because of murder.

imoo

[fran]

The evidence is within the well of the court.

Where are all of Wood's motions demanding more diwcovery now? It is February. The evidence was all to be back by the end of January.
Where is Wood's motion to dismiss? That is common practice for attorneys especially if they think the State doesn't have the evidence against their client?

I would think these men have a lot to talk about and since the media seems to keep up with Big John when he is around, I highly doubt they would want to have their heartfelt conversation in St. John or San Carlos. Maybe they were discussing the best way to support the families who are grieving and continuing to be in emotional pain. Maybe they are just two men tied by a bond their never wanted to have? Both of them losing someone they loved because of murder.

imoo

The recent court proceeding was held in chambers. We don't know that the evidence is back. In previous open court proceedings, the pros said they'd TRY to have the evidence back by the end of the month. Because of the length of time it CAN take to have 'evidence' examined at labs, the judge allowed the pros the possibility that they MIGHT NOT have the tests results in time for the recent hearing. Because we aren't privy to what was discussed in the recent in chambers hearing, it's POSSIBLE the evidence is still being tested.

IMHO, it may be because the alleged 'evidence' isn't back yet that the judge decided to temporarily release the child while the pros get's their ducks in a row.

FWIW, I read that the 'ballistics' was being submitted to a second lab. THAT in itself leads one to wonder just WHAT? is being discovered. ;)

I'm still amazed that so many believe this child is guilty with so many questions still open on this case. With NO evidence, IMHO, it's kind of difficult to determine the accused's guilt........... or INNOCENCE.

Just FWIW, because items have been submitted for testing, does NOT necessarily mean it will come back pointing to the child. One will ONLY know the results, AFTER the testing is complete. Curious that LE found the boy's finger prints on the box of shells, yet we have NOT heard IF his finger prints were on the alleged murder weapon or any of the shells............OH, wait! That would work AGAINST the pros,.................pretty obvious why SOME evidence is LEAKED by the pros and SOME is held back.

The child's attorney said he wants to EXONERATE this boy. I believe he'll be able to do it. Time will tell.


SOME may not find it curious that these two victim family members met hours away from home, but I'm willing to bet any LEGITIMATE investigator would want to know just what was so important that needed to be discussed between these two parties, out of the eyes of LE or the media. Why not just a phone call?

I understand LeRoy told Big John that Tim wasn't really cheating on his wife. Curious as to the 'motive' for LeRoy to lie to Tim's family like that. Especially since everyone in town knew the score on Tim and his wild ways.:eek:

JMHO
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

The recent court proceeding was held in chambers. We don't know that the evidence is back. In previous open court proceedings, the pros said they'd TRY to have the evidence back by the end of the month. Because of the length of time it CAN take to have 'evidence' examined at labs, the judge allowed the pros the possibility that they MIGHT NOT have the tests results in time for the recent hearing. Because we aren't privy to what was discussed in the recent in chambers hearing, it's POSSIBLE the evidence is still being tested.

IMHO, it may be because the alleged 'evidence' isn't back yet that the judge decided to temporarily release the child while the pros get's their ducks in a row.

FWIW, I read that the 'ballistics' was being submitted to a second lab. THAT in itself leads one to wonder just WHAT? is being discovered. ;)

I'm still amazed that so many believe this child is guilty with so many questions still open on this case. With NO evidence, IMHO, it's kind of difficult to determine the accused's guilt........... or INNOCENCE.

Just FWIW, because items have been submitted for testing, does NOT necessarily mean it will come back pointing to the child. One will ONLY know the results, AFTER the testing is complete. Curious that LE found the boy's finger prints on the box of shells, yet we have NOT heard IF his finger prints were on the alleged murder weapon or any of the shells............OH, wait! That would work AGAINST the pros,.................pretty obvious why SOME evidence is LEAKED by the pros and SOME is held back.

The child's attorney said he wants to EXONERATE this boy. I believe he'll be able to do it. Time will tell.


SOME may not find it curious that these two victim family members met hours away from home, but I'm willing to bet any LEGITIMATE investigator would want to know just what was so important that needed to be discussed between these two parties, out of the eyes of LE or the media. Why not just a phone call?

I understand LeRoy told Big John that Tim wasn't really cheating on his wife. Curious as to the 'motive' for LeRoy to lie to Tim's family like that. Especially since everyone in town knew the score on Tim and his wild ways.:eek:

JMHO
fran

The boy's attorney said that is his hopes and wishes. He never says that it will come to pass. Many defense attorneys opine the same thing. Remember Geragos when he said he would prove his infamous client was "stone cold innocent?"

Well I have really been thinking about the so called affair with Candy. She is the one saying they were going to be married but from her web space she seems to have moved on quickly. And he just asks her to marry him but he leaves alone and goes back to the Romeros rather than getting a room or going home with his errr...new "fiancé"?????

So how much was of this was even true or Tim just blowing smoke. I would think since Leroy was around Tim a lot and may have even been at the bar often then he would know what Tim really planned to do and did. Somehow I don't think Candy was in the equation even though he may have flirted with her and she took it seriously. Which is not uncommon for a younger female to do.

The last hearing was held in chambers just like every time when the boy has been furloughed.

I am sure a phone call was made ahead of time to set up the meeting. Sometimes in certain cases, especially one as sad and emotional as this one, meeting eye to eye is much better.

imo

[fran]

This case has nothing in common with the Peterson case except two murders. It's senseless to compare them.

The Peterson case was a man who didn't want to be a father, so he eliminated the two people who stood in his way. He then had a Hollywood lawyer who ran around trying to find people in brown vans and satanic cults, CREATING an illusion of 'other possible suspects.'

THIS case is two grown men, one of which led a questionable life-style, that has NUMEROUS questions that need to be answered before ANYONE could be included OR excluded as a possible suspect, INCLUDING the spouses, drug addict relatives, enemies made by the victims at work and at the local bar, psycho b/f's of paramours, angry ex-coworkers, missing guns (same caliber as the murder weapon per the shell casings left at the scene), and last but NOT least, a completely bungled investigation by local LE. Good grief! The chief of all people allowing NUMEROUS people into the crime scene and removing the victim's bodies before even the lead investigators had a chance to INVESTIGATE THE MURDER SCENE, .....................WHAT was he thinking?

Sheesh!:rolleyes:

JMHO
fran

PS.........IMHO...........there are WAY TOO MANY unanswered questions, whether the evidence is in or not, that we, the general public at large, can definitively say this child is guilty or that anyone is EXCLUDED as a possible POI. WAY TOO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS....fran

[fran]

A local business owner, Mr. Kilmer said he dropped one of his employees off at his home across the street from the murder scene between 5:00-5:10. He said at the time, there were two trucks parked in front of the murder scene, one truck lighter in color than the other, one truck kind of blocking the other. There were three men standing between the trucks talking.

After Mr. Kilmer dropped the employee off, as he passed, there were only two men outside, kind of getting into the truck(s?) as if to leave.

LE decided this was AFTER the murders and it was most likely the victim's truck and the neighbor who'd come home and called 911.

But wait!...............Neighbor Hannah who lived across the street said he got home about 5:00, left by 5:05 to pick up a tractor from his dad and returned home at 5:25 (after LE was there).

Was THIS the employee Mr. Kilmer dropped off? The TIME just isn't right, but yet within the TIMELINE of the MURDERS!?

Did Mr. Kilmer actually see the VICTIMS and the MURDERER?!

When a witness doesn't know they're going to have to be EXACT, they ESTIMATE.

PERHAPS LE should talk to these two guys again. Wouldn't hurt, doncha' think?

JMHO
fran

[southcitymom]

The boy's attorney said that is his hopes and wishes. He never says that it will come to pass. Many defense attorneys opine the same thing. Remember Geragos when he said he would prove his infamous client was "stone cold innocent?"

Well I have really been thinking about the so called affair with Candy. She is the one saying they were going to be married but from her web space she seems to have moved on quickly. And he just asks her to marry him but he leaves alone and goes back to the Romeros rather than getting a room or going home with his errr...new "fiancé"?????

So how much was of this was even true or Tim just blowing smoke. I would think since Leroy was around Tim a lot and may have even been at the bar often then he would know what Tim really planned to do and did. Somehow I don't think Candy was in the equation even though he may have flirted with her and she took it seriously. Which is not uncommon for a younger female to do.

The last hearing was held in chambers just like every time when the boy has been furloughed.

I am sure a phone call was made ahead of time to set up the meeting. Sometimes in certain cases, especially one as sad and emotional as this one, meeting eye to eye is much better.

imo

I couldn't agree more. That is the battle cry of defense attorneys across the countryside.

Heavy as it is to contemplate, I do believe - based on what we know so far - that this child did this. I would surely like for that not to be the case but that doesn't seem to be where the case is heading.

[MeoW333]

FINALLY! A voice of reason! "We do not know yet what happened. We certainly do not know all the extenuating circumstances. We have to wait and see"Thank you chiperoni!

No Ballistics, NOT complete finger-print evidence, NO dna report, missing weapons, drug addict relatives, bumbled investigation, widow NOT acting like a 'recent' widowed person, lawyered up spouces refusing to talk to LE, coerced confessions, bad blood between victims and various persons, cheating husband, psycho b/f of ONE of cheating husband's 'other' women, random gunshot holes in victim's vehicle by drug addict cousin, lack of LE to look for get-away car, lack of investigation (that WE know of), yet..................there are those that just know the child is guilty.:waitasec:

:confused:Where is the EVIDENCE?:rolleyes:

JMHO
fran

PS..........Wonder why grandpa LeRoy found it necessary to meet Big John (Roman family spokesman) hours away from home? Wonder what was sooooo secret it couldn't have been said by phone and they had to meet so far away?:deal:

Oh, yeah, just a coinky-dink, I'm sure. ;) fran

That is odd that they would drive a few hours away to meet if they live near each other. You'd think it if was something very private, just go behind close doors in a home to discuss it. That's odd..

[MeoW333]

Well yes it is, indeed, unfair for someone to be accused of something that LE cannot prove. We do not know if LE can PROVE this child killed these men, so let's apply that opinion fairly across the board. And let's not presume to know why Tim went to the bar every night or why he may have been cheating on his wife or what he may have been doing for extra income on the side. It's not an attempt to slander whatever character he's no longer here to defend. It's simply to show that it is possible there may have been others who wanted to end his life. Someone who had more of a beef than that they forgot to bring their homework home or got a couple of swats.

And BTW, alleged criminals - even murderers - get out on bail all the time. The fact that a young child should be "furloughed" is no cause for outrage or alarm. IMO.

Thank you :clap::clap::clap:

In various different cases on here, we have to "look into" circumstances such as drugs, of murdered people, in order to solve cases.
I don't see how that we can't dig into Tim's background about the "dirt" we heard, yet others can dig up anything they want about the boy.

[oceanblueeyes]

I couldn't agree more. That is the battle cry of defense attorneys across the countryside.

Heavy as it is to contemplate, I do believe - based on what we know so far - that this child did this. I would surely like for that not to be the case but that doesn't seem to be where the case is heading.

Oh yes, that is quite common. This is what a defense attorney does. I even remember in the David Westerfield case Steve Feldman said that he was going to show his client didn't kill Daniele Van Dam, of course all the time fully knowing, that he was close to making a plea deal and DW had already drawn a map to where her little body was located. When she was found before it could be signed, he went right along with it trying to accuse the parents of killing their own child.

So defense attorneys spouting off their wishes or hopes, is just that imo. It sure doesn't mean he has exonerating evidence. If so he would file a motion to dismiss and use the exonerating evidence to support it or use lack of evidence.

IMO what he is waiting for is this case to be resolved on a technicality due to the boy being age incompetent to understand the trial proceedings but that certainly will not be an exoneration of anything but will leave this case hanging over this kid forever.

If I were Eryn and knew my kid was innocent I would want it to go to trial where it could shown that he is. If the truth is on his side then why try to suppress it?

imoo

[fran]

Who is Augustine Logan? - Tim had a DL and debit card in his glove box in this name.

Where was Vince's wife's dad when he spoke to Vince, just moments before Vince and Tim were murdered? Mrs. Romero reportedly said her dad spoke to Vince about 15 minutes after she did. This would have been her dad who was the last known 'live' person to speak to the victim Romero.

Which grandpa was the boy speaking of, when he said the 'white car driving away fast' that "looked like grandpa's?"

Which 'grandpa' is it that comes and visits sometimes? NO follow-up question.

Where is grandpa LeRoy's automatic 22 rifle that SHOULD have been at the murder scene, in the parent's room? LE showed an EMPTY gun case. FWIW, this is the SAME grandpa that met BigJohn out of town and lied to him about Tim cheating on his wife. ;) This is the SAME grandpa that originally didn't want the boy to be re-interviewed but after it was reported the child confessed, he stated he was sure the boy did it.

Where are the follow-up questions by LE, of the child, when he said he 'saw someone go into the house?'
a. They didn't ask for a description?
b. NO follow up question about this alleged unknown person?

What did the child mean when asked by LE if his 'mom was there' during the murders? After the child said 'no.'
"She told you she was at the store."
"She went to the store after what happened."
AFTER WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED????????????

Is Vince's sister in law still on drugs?

What about Tim's cousin who shot a hole in Tim's truck a few months back? Is he still on drugs?

What about the former co-worker who didn't like Tim and Vince? He drives a small white truck? He is a former Army Ranger, trained to kill.

Just wonderin'
fran

PS.......Just a little question. I'd like to know how people can reason that an 8 yo child could plan and execute this brutal crime with a single bolt action gun, getting the drop on two grown, perfectly fit men,............YET, he couldn't even remember to bring home a paper from school when he knew he'd get in trouble if he didn't have it?

Just wonderin' how that makes any sense. Anyone?:crazy:
fran

[mrrogers]

The recent court proceeding was held in chambers. We don't know that the evidence is back. In previous open court proceedings, the pros said they'd TRY to have the evidence back by the end of the month. Because of the length of time it CAN take to have 'evidence' examined at labs, the judge allowed the pros the possibility that they MIGHT NOT have the tests results in time for the recent hearing. Because we aren't privy to what was discussed in the recent in chambers hearing, it's POSSIBLE the evidence is still being tested.

IMHO, it may be because the alleged 'evidence' isn't back yet that the judge decided to temporarily release the child while the pros get's their ducks in a row.

FWIW, I read that the 'ballistics' was being submitted to a second lab. THAT in itself leads one to wonder just WHAT? is being discovered. ;)

I'm still amazed that so many believe this child is guilty with so many questions still open on this case. With NO evidence, IMHO, it's kind of difficult to determine the accused's guilt........... or INNOCENCE.

Just FWIW, because items have been submitted for testing, does NOT necessarily mean it will come back pointing to the child. One will ONLY know the results, AFTER the testing is complete. Curious that LE found the boy's finger prints on the box of shells, yet we have NOT heard IF his finger prints were on the alleged murder weapon or any of the shells............OH, wait! That would work AGAINST the pros,.................pretty obvious why SOME evidence is LEAKED by the pros and SOME is held back.

The child's attorney said he wants to EXONERATE this boy. I believe he'll be able to do it. Time will tell.


SOME may not find it curious that these two victim family members met hours away from home, but I'm willing to bet any LEGITIMATE investigator would want to know just what was so important that needed to be discussed between these two parties, out of the eyes of LE or the media. Why not just a phone call?

I understand LeRoy told Big John that Tim wasn't really cheating on his wife. Curious as to the 'motive' for LeRoy to lie to Tim's family like that. Especially since everyone in town knew the score on Tim and his wild ways.:eek:

JMHO
fran
i think there bluffin, i had a friend that took a plea deal when he swore he was innocent,after he signed it the da told him ya know what jeff we didnt have any evidence against ya
i think its the same thing here
a judge is hardly gonna let a killer loose till the results of something come back
him and his mom could do something stupid like take off but there not there just hanging
loose waiting for this to be over,hopefully the boy will calm down and brighten up some while hes out. also if you notice the furloughs keep getting longer and there all about the same time of the month. i guess thats why roca is a judge he has managed this case pretty good
i think roca already knows hes innocent
its drivin me crazy about that meeting between leroy and big john im with you whats so hot that it cant be said over email or telephone.
if you leaved out here you would be more puzzled because the drive from where john lives
in not flat and straight theres a nasty canyon he has to drive thru called salt river canyone
it was over 100 miles for him and about 90 for leroy whos drive would have been pretty easy no canyons or stuff like that
who knows what it was but it sure does make ya wonder

[fran]

i think there bluffin, i had a friend that took a plea deal when he swore he was innocent,after he signed it the da told him ya know what jeff we didnt have any evidence against ya
i think its the same thing here
a judge is hardly gonna let a killer loose till the results of something come bac
i think roca already knows hes innocent

Oh hey! Hi! WELCOME to Websleuths!

I think you're right. I think there are MANY who already know this child is innocent. Probably MANY within the St John's PD. ;)

JMHO
fran

[mrrogers]

Oh yes, that is quite common. This is what a defense attorney does. I even remember in the David Westerfield case Steve Feldman said that he was going to show his client didn't kill Daniele Van Dam, of course all the time fully knowing, that he was close to making a plea deal and DW had already drawn a map to where her little body was located. When she was found before it could be signed, he went right along with it trying to accuse the parents of killing their own child.

So defense attorneys spouting off their wishes or hopes, is just that imo. It sure doesn't mean he has exonerating evidence. If so he would file a motion to dismiss and use the exonerating evidence to support it or use lack of evidence.

IMO what he is waiting for is this case to be resolved on a technicality due to the boy being age incompetent to understand the trial proceedings but that certainly will not be an exoneration of anything but will leave this case hanging over this kid forever.

If I were Eryn and knew my kid was innocent I would want it to go to trial where it could shown that he is. If the truth is on his side then why try to suppress it?

imoo

there is no evidence theyve been bragging about.. if they had anything that implicated him it would be all over the news. carlyon is a slimy character
re :http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/storypage1.html
he loves to brag about how hes gonna prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law yet he has not uttered a word about anythng that is solid evidence of guilt. also if the kid was guilty i really dont think hed be getting these furloughs. ya just dont give a killer a timeout knowing hes guilty

[mrrogers]

all there is to do is wait . someone popped into onsessions blog last nite and said that there had been trerething post and she had edited the kids myspace page of anything that had a location in it her theory vigilantes or the real killer worried about the boy telling what he knows

[fran]

all there is to do is wait . someone popped into onsessions blog last nite and said that there had been trerething post and she had edited the kids myspace page of anything that had a location in it her theory vigilantes or the real killer worried about the boy telling what he knows

I think she may be right, 'vigilantes or the real killer.' I hope she's contacted LE, as it is not covered under the Constitution and 'free speech' when a 'threat' is made. It would serve the person(s) who made these threats right, IF they were arrested and had to face a judge themselves. Then we'd see how brave they are.

Thanks for joining us here, mrrogers! :)

JMHO
fran

[MeoW333]

all there is to do is wait . someone popped into onsessions blog last nite and said that there had been trerething post and she had edited the kids myspace page of anything that had a location in it her theory vigilantes or the real killer worried about the boy telling what he knows

Hi Mrrogers, welcome to Websleuths! :) :Welcome-12-june:

[MeoW333]

Who is Augustine Logan? - Tim had a DL and debit card in his glove box in this name.

Where was Vince's wife's dad when he spoke to Vince, just moments before Vince and Tim were murdered? Mrs. Romero reportedly said her dad spoke to Vince about 15 minutes after she did. This would have been her dad who was the last known 'live' person to speak to the victim Romero.

Which grandpa was the boy speaking of, when he said the 'white car driving away fast' that "looked like grandpa's?"

Which 'grandpa' is it that comes and visits sometimes? NO follow-up question.

Where is grandpa LeRoy's automatic 22 rifle that SHOULD have been at the murder scene, in the parent's room? LE showed an EMPTY gun case. FWIW, this is the SAME grandpa that met BigJohn out of town and lied to him about Tim cheating on his wife. ;) This is the SAME grandpa that originally didn't want the boy to be re-interviewed but after it was reported the child confessed, he stated he was sure the boy did it.

Where are the follow-up questions by LE, of the child, when he said he 'saw someone go into the house?'
a. They didn't ask for a description?
b. NO follow up question about this alleged unknown person?

What did the child mean when asked by LE if his 'mom was there' during the murders? After the child said 'no.'
"She told you she was at the store."
"She went to the store after what happened."
AFTER WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED????????????

Is Vince's sister in law still on drugs?

What about Tim's cousin who shot a hole in Tim's truck a few months back? Is he still on drugs?

What about the former co-worker who didn't like Tim and Vince? He drives a small white truck? He is a former Army Ranger, trained to kill.

Just wonderin'
fran

PS.......Just a little question. I'd like to know how people can reason that an 8 yo child could plan and execute this brutal crime with a single bolt action gun, getting the drop on two grown, perfectly fit men,............YET, he couldn't even remember to bring home a paper from school when he knew he'd get in trouble if he didn't have it?

Just wonderin' how that makes any sense. Anyone?:crazy:
fran

These are very good questions, and i would love to know if LE found answers to them, let alone even asked them.
I think they are granting furloughs since the prosection/LE need to find more solid evidence against the boy since what they have won't fly.

[oceanblueeyes]

there is no evidence theyve been bragging about.. if they had anything that implicated him it would be all over the news. carlyon is a slimy character
re :http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/storypage1.html
he loves to brag about how hes gonna prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law yet he has not uttered a word about anything that is solid evidence of guilt. also if the kid was guilty i really dont think hed be getting these furloughs. ya just dont give a killer a timeout knowing hes guilty

Defendants are even bonded out once arrested and dont have to keep returning, until trial. AND a Judge doesnt put a defendant back in detention, time after time, if they think they are innocent either imo. And he has been in more than he has been out.

I don't think you can predict what they would do.

I highly doubt they have ever had a 9 year old murder suspect to deal with.

imoo

[azmama]

PS.......Just a little question. I'd like to know how people can reason that an 8 yo child could plan and execute this brutal crime with a single bolt action gun, getting the drop on two grown, perfectly fit men,............YET, he couldn't even remember to bring home a paper from school when he knew he'd get in trouble if he didn't have it?

Just wonderin' how that makes any sense. Anyone?
fran

That is one of my main points of concern through this whole thing, I have a nearly 8 year old boy and an 11 year old boy, I can say with confidence that neither would be capable of "planning and carrying out" a premeditated murder. Especially with 2 healthy grown men being the victims, just too far fetched IMO of course.

I am not a bettin' girl, BUT I am willing to bet, they got nuthin' on him! NOTHING!

[fran]

I am not a bettin' girl, BUT I am willing to bet, they got nuthin' on him! NOTHING!

ITA! "NOTHING!" ;)

fran

[oceanblueeyes]

PS.......Just a little question. I'd like to know how people can reason that an 8 yo child could plan and execute this brutal crime with a single bolt action gun, getting the drop on two grown, perfectly fit men,............YET, he couldn't even remember to bring home a paper from school when he knew he'd get in trouble if he didn't have it?

Just wonderin' how that makes any sense. Anyone?
fran

That is one of my main points of concern through this whole thing, I have a nearly 8 year old boy and an 11 year old boy, I can say with confidence that neither would be capable of "planning and carrying out" a premeditated murder. Especially with 2 healthy grown men being the victims, just too far fetched IMO of course.

I am not a bettin' girl, BUT I am willing to bet, they got nuthin' on him! NOTHING!


If they got nothing on him why has he been held for three months? And why is he out for only a week and not for good?

I would expect you are certainly right about your children however this boy is not your child and I bet your children have never even been arrested and charged for any crime, much less double homicide.

Having an 8 or 9 year old has nothing to do with this child. Most of us have children, even grown children and while most adults aren't capable of killing anyone some do and that goes for children as well...............the majority doesnt but some do.

Why do you think it was undoable? I really don't understand that. It was his gun. He knew how to use it. He even talked about how easy it was to shoot. It takes seconds to shoot, eject and reload and shoot again. What expertise did he have to possess to hit large targets that were within a few feet of him?

What did you expect Vinnie and Tim to do. They weren't super humans who could outrun bullets or catch them in their teeth. The shooter kept his distance until the head shot to Romans when he was already down for the count. So what were they to do when being shot again within seconds? What was Vinnie to do? Turn around and face the shooter who had the only weapon, knowing he would be hit with gunfire to the chest instead of the back?

What was Tim to do? Turn around to flee knowing that the shooter had a bead on him and could shoot him in the back or the back of the head just as easily as he shot him in the chest?

These men never had a fighting chance but when one has a deadly weapon and shooting it repeatedly, the ones who have no weapon at all, are the one who loses, just like these two men did.

imoo

[Bobbisangel]

Who is Augustine Logan? - Tim had a DL and debit card in his glove box in this name.

Where was Vince's wife's dad when he spoke to Vince, just moments before Vince and Tim were murdered? Mrs. Romero reportedly said her dad spoke to Vince about 15 minutes after she did. This would have been her dad who was the last known 'live' person to speak to the victim Romero.

Which grandpa was the boy speaking of, when he said the 'white car driving away fast' that "looked like grandpa's?"

Which 'grandpa' is it that comes and visits sometimes? NO follow-up question.

Where is grandpa LeRoy's automatic 22 rifle that SHOULD have been at the murder scene, in the parent's room? LE showed an EMPTY gun case. FWIW, this is the SAME grandpa that met BigJohn out of town and lied to him about Tim cheating on his wife. ;) This is the SAME grandpa that originally didn't want the boy to be re-interviewed but after it was reported the child confessed, he stated he was sure the boy did it.

Where are the follow-up questions by LE, of the child, when he said he 'saw someone go into the house?'
a. They didn't ask for a description?
b. NO follow up question about this alleged unknown person?

What did the child mean when asked by LE if his 'mom was there' during the murders? After the child said 'no.'
"She told you she was at the store."
"She went to the store after what happened."
AFTER WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED????????????

Is Vince's sister in law still on drugs?

What about Tim's cousin who shot a hole in Tim's truck a few months back? Is he still on drugs?

What about the former co-worker who didn't like Tim and Vince? He drives a small white truck? He is a former Army Ranger, trained to kill.

Just wonderin'
fran

PS.......Just a little question. I'd like to know how people can reason that an 8 yo child could plan and execute this brutal crime with a single bolt action gun, getting the drop on two grown, perfectly fit men,............YET, he couldn't even remember to bring home a paper from school when he knew he'd get in trouble if he didn't have it?

Just wonderin' how that makes any sense. Anyone?:crazy:
fran


Sure a lot of info floating around out there for a case that is supposed to have a gag order. So much info about what happened, what isn't in the house, the relatives, what was in Tim's trucks glove box, etc. I'm really surprised that someone is letting all of this info out. Wonder who it is that is talking about items in the house missing, etc?

[fran]

Sure a lot of info floating around out there for a case that is supposed to have a gag order. So much info about what happened, what isn't in the house, the relatives, what was in Tim's trucks glove box, etc. I'm really surprised that someone is letting all of this info out. Wonder who it is that is talking about items in the house missing, etc?

Oh, there's a gag order alright. Of course, the pros has found a way to get out all of the info THEY want to be known to the public, INCLUDING the child's name. Curious how they manage to black out the victim's birth dates, but time after time after time, they leave visible to everyone in the world to see this child's name. This is on the WORLD WIDE internet. Then they complain about newspapers printing the child's name. :rolleyes:

It seems the only thing the gag order did was shut up the chief, who'd already appeared on the morning news shows and done interview after interview that appeared in print. Poor Chief even had to cancel his last scheduled news conference,.............AFTER, of course, he'd already released the video of the child's bogus ALLEGED confession.

The county court or pros, in their infinit wisdom, decided because of the large 'interest' in this 'unusual' case, it was a good idea to post online, all of the legal documents filed with the clerk. This includes 100's of pages of court transcripts, witness' interviews as recorded and transcribed by officers, officers notes, lawyer's filings, etc, etc, etc.............

Of course, there's a few 'leaks' by people who'd finalized testing, ie the def dr. who deemed the child incompetent to stand trial because of his young age,.........but then you have that countered by the pros expert who'd tested the 'evidence' for finger-prints. Of course, the only thing we've learned is that the child's finger prints were on the box of shells confiscated. We didn't hear about the spent shells or the alleged murder weapon. We also heard the child's clothing had GSR traces on them. Less than 3 doz,......and qualified with the statement, "he was either in the vicinity of the discharged weapon when it was fired, or he touched the 'alleged' weapon." A FAR CRY from declaring the child actually FIRED the weapon.

Much of the other information deemed, is from reading through the transcripts and notes of the officers. The DISCREPANCY of FACTS. Oh, sure there's a few things that have LEAKED from locals. There's also a leak that the 'ballistics' was returned and resent out to a second lab. Oh,.......and NOT in the court documents but one reporter filed, and now I can no longer locate the document link, that the pros dr who'd examined the child agrees with the def dr.,.............the child is INCOMPETENT to stand trial.

FWIW, in the same article that talked about the 'competency hearing' being postponed, was when the def attorney for the child, said he wants to EXONERATE the child. Oh sure, they could 'dismiss' the charges, but his attorney wants him EXONERATED.......so that he's just like the kid he was when this terrible tragedy happened, a third grade child.

I have no idea WHO did this crime. But I do NOT BELIEVE the child did it. I'm still open to the possibility, but there's WAY too MANY OTHER possibilities, people, places, events, that happened too close to these victims, to declare this child guilty. I would like to have ANSWERS before I could even begin to figure out, WHO KILLED VINCENT ROMERO AND TIM ROMAN?.........I want to know the truth.

I believe the victims deserve justice. The victims and their families need to be CERTAIN, the REAL killer is caught and punished. I just pray that LE hasn't ruined the chance of justice for these two men. :(

JMHO
fran

[MeoW333]

Defendants are even bonded out once arrested and dont have to keep returning, until trial. AND a Judge doesnt put a defendant back in detention, time after time, if they think they are innocent either imo. And he has been in more than he has been out.

I don't think you can predict what they would do.

I highly doubt they have ever had a 9 year old murder suspect to deal with.

imoo

Normally they would set a bail after arresting and bonding a defendant. In the beginning, we had heard this little boy had nowhere to go home to, that no one would take him home. Possibly that's why they are detaining him?

[Native New Yorker]

Could they also be detaining him to protect him???

[fran]

Could they also be detaining him to protect him???

That has been a possibility discussed, 'protecting him.' But he has now been released to his bio-mom, so who knows?.... As normally anyone arrested for murder and most especially double-homicide, are not let out on bond and more importantly, not without a LARGE sum of $$. The fact they've let this child out leaves me to BELIEVE that the court doesn't consider this child a 'danger' to the public.

I'm not certain who did this. I haven't completely ruled out the child, but I do tend to believe it was someone else. Like I've been saying, there's still way too many unanswered questions surrounding this crime, to declare ANYONE as the perp.

IMHO, because the judge hasn't completely released the boy and because the child's def attorney hasn't submitted paper's to have him dismissed as a suspect, is not necessarily because the judge considers him guilty or that there's a 'deal' in the works between the def and pros.. To assume that, is just,........ well silly. The judge has already stated he won't rule on anything until the boy's competency is decided. The judge didn't even want to rule on wheather to dismiss the one count prior to the competency hearing, which is why the matter went before a higher court. But the higher court threw it back at the judge and here we are.

What bothers me is that the St John's PD immediately stopped investigating this crime the minute the child allegedly confessed. Some officers were right in the middle of interviewing fellow-employees of the two victims. The bodies were removed from the scene before even the lead detectives had reviewed the murder scene and before the forensic techs arrived.

There is already way too much evidence that has been lost forever. I don't know if they can ever figure this out. I sure hope so. I also HOPE they re-started their investigation and interviews.

There's a murderer among the St. John's citizens and I'm NOT sure it's this boy. They SHOULD BE afraid,...............very afraid.

JMHO
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

Could they also be detaining him to protect him???

And then letting him out and about three times?:waitasec:

[oceanblueeyes]

Normally they would set a bail after arresting and bonding a defendant. In the beginning, we had heard this little boy had nowhere to go home to, that no one would take him home. Possibly that's why they are detaining him?

I am not sure that is the case here though.

We heard that from the defense right at the start of the case but it seems Roca wants him to be under the jurisdiction of the court or detention center.

I know I read somewhere, that the first time he was released a dentention officer had to accompany him. I am sure that is to make sure that he is safe and also to make sure he and his mother does not discuss the case among themselves. There is no privilege between a mother/child.

imoo

[6angels]

I am missing something. He has been released?

[fran]

I am missing something. He has been released?

He's just out on furlough with his mom for a week. I believe there's a court hearing on Friday. We'll see what happens then.

JMHO
fran

[OrdinaryLife]

This case has not been a certified "slam dunk" for St. John's LE or the DA. IMHO, there is much more going on behind the scenes of this case than anyone of us are aware of. If this child planned and carried out a multiple murder, without question, there is no way he would have been allowed any visitation with his Mother twice. No way.

There is so much we do no know, but actions on behalf of this child are stating much.

I look forward to information that will be available. It's frustrating, to say the least, that only "blurbs" are let out...

There is more to this story. Yeah, I repeat myself and still believe in it.

[oceanblueeyes]

He's just out on furlough with his mom for a week. I believe there's a court hearing on Friday. We'll see what happens then.

JMHO
fran


I think the hearing is to take place this Thursday, the 5th.

imoo

[mrrogers]

These are very good questions, and i would love to know if LE found answers to them, let alone even asked them.
I think they are granting furloughs since the prosection/LE need to find more solid evidence against the boy since what they have won't fly.

heres a url to the criminal record of augustine logan

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/casedetail.asp?cs_id=kecmckeg&crt_name=Superior-Kearny%20Justice


a very knowledable source has told me the state has no case .
and your right thats probably why they more less released him to his mom

[mrrogers]

That is odd that they would drive a few hours away to meet if they live near each other. You'd think it if was something very private, just go behind close doors in a home to discuss it. That's odd..

its really odd if you live in the area and know that its a nasty drive thru salt river canyon to get to showlow from san carlos

[Fairy1]

I am not sure that is the case here though.

We heard that from the defense right at the start of the case but it seems Roca wants him to be under the jurisdiction of the court or detention center.

I know I read somewhere, that the first time he was released a dentention officer had to accompany him. I am sure that is to make sure that he is safe and also to make sure he and his mother does not discuss the case among themselves. There is no privilege between a mother/child.

imoo

None of us know why the judge wants him under the watchful eye of the court - may very well be for his own protection. We also don't know if they are providing protection - as opposed to surveillance - when he is with his mother.

As far as Tim Romans' criminal record goes, I maintain that if there were any charges or convictions on the reservation subsequent to what we know occurred in the 90's, we would not be privy to that information. We don't know. Sometimes, small town gossip is an excellent source of fact. Sometimes it isn't. That's another thing we don't yet know. But the fact that rumors do exist is reason enough for the SJPD to have continued the investigation after the "confession." They are not experienced in investigating murders at all and certainly not experienced or equipped to handle an investigation involving a young child. Then again, what LE or court would be?

Bottom line is, we have no where near all the facts in this case. We can speculate until the cows come home, but right now, we don't know. I am willing to consider this boy innocent until proven guilty. A benefit we should afford anyone accused of a crime, but most certainly a young child with no prior record or documented behavioral issues.

[SoobsinMI]

heres a url to the criminal record of augustine logan


I'm sorry, who again, is Augustine Logan? Thanks.

[Fairy1]

I'm sorry, who again, is Augustine Logan? Thanks.


Who is Augustine Logan? - Tim had a DL and debit card in his glove box in this name.

snipped for space......from Fran

[oceanblueeyes]

heres a url to the criminal record of augustine logan

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/casedetail.asp?cs_id=kecmckeg&crt_name=Superior-Kearny%20Justice


a very knowledgeable source has told me the state has no case .
and your right thats probably why they more less released him to his mom

I didn't see any criminal violations. From the site you posted these offenses were traffic violations.

Is this all this woman has on her record?

imoo

[SoobsinMI]

Who is Augustine Logan? - Tim had a DL and debit card in his glove box in this name.

snipped for space......from Fran

Thanks, Fairy. I remember that, now.

[azmama]

I wanted to comment on several items in the past couple of pages without making a bunch of seperate posts, quotes are reduced for space as to what I am specifically pointing out.

No Ballistics, NOT complete finger-print evidence, NO dna report, missing weapons, drug addict relatives, bumbled investigation, widow NOT acting like a 'recent' widowed person, lawyered up spouces refusing to talk to LE, coerced confessions, bad blood between victims and various persons, cheating husband, psycho b/f of ONE of cheating husband's 'other' women, random gunshot holes in victim's vehicle by drug addict cousin, lack of LE to look for get-away car, lack of investigation (that WE know of), yet..................there are those that just know the child is guilty.:waitasec:

PS..........Wonder why grandpa LeRoy found it necessary to meet Big John (Roman family spokesman) hours away from home?

I agree with all of this, the LE has not shown one piece of evidence that shows that the boy committed this murder...a very slippery slope. Comment about the drive below.


Well I have really been thinking about the so called affair with Candy. She is the one saying they were going to be married but from her web space she seems to have moved on quickly. And he just asks her to marry him but he leaves alone and goes back to the Romeros rather than getting a room or going home with his errr...new "fiancé"?????

So how much was of this was even true or Tim just blowing smoke. I would think since Leroy was around Tim a lot and may have even been at the bar often then he would know what Tim really planned to do and did. Somehow I don't think Candy was in the equation even though he may have flirted with her and she took it seriously. Which is not uncommon for a younger female to do.

imo

Why is it so reasonable for you to assume what did or did not happen between Tim and Candy and just to assume his intentions and yet nail someone else to the wall about an opinion of the boy? The fact is, we do not know, and IMO men do not discuss things of this nature (in a bonding type of fashion) like women do, so it would not seem odd to me at all that Leroy wouldn't know anything.......

i think there bluffin, i had a friend that took a plea deal when he swore he was innocent,after he signed it the da told him ya know what jeff we didnt have any evidence against ya
i think its the same thing here
a judge is hardly gonna let a killer loose till the results of something come back
i think roca already knows hes innocent
its drivin me crazy about that meeting between leroy and big john im with you whats so hot that it cant be said over email or telephone.
if you leaved out here you would be more puzzled because the drive from where john lives
in not flat and straight theres a nasty canyon he has to drive thru called salt river canyone
it was over 100 miles for him and about 90 for leroy whos drive would have been pretty easy no canyons or stuff like that
who knows what it was but it sure does make ya wonder

I too think they are bluffing, if not, SHOW YOUR HAND! Do you really think if they had this case all wrapped up, they would continue to hold it close to the chest?? NO WAY! They would be sky writing it!
I think the judge too believes there is not evidence, if there is so much, why the furloughs? Now that should be an out cry from the towns people!


Defendants are even bonded out once arrested and dont have to keep returning, until trial. AND a Judge doesnt put a defendant back in detention, time after time, if they think they are innocent either imo.


So what is it you think the Judge should be doing? If he is guilty, how can the furloughs be justified? What is your theory on those issues?
It is an odd case to be sure, but there have been other child murderers, and THEY never got any furloughs!

If they got nothing on him why has he been held for three months? And why is he out for only a week and not for good?IMO because they have a confession, do you see LE going around all the time parading their mistakes? No, not really, unless their hand is forced. And this is a BIG mistake, one that can potentially cost the LE there millions!

I would expect you are certainly right about your children however this boy is not your child and I bet your children have never even been arrested and charged for any crime, much less double homicide. Neither had he! He couldn't even remember a paper he was supposed to bring home from school, but we are expected to believe he planned all of this out? He is a child none the less and there are not a lot of children that pull something like this off, it just doesn't make sense in my mind is what I am saying. It is quite obvious to me that it does in yours, that's all. I really see a lack of human compassion from my point of view from you toward this boy, I think that is why I spend so much time trying to convince you, because I can not understand that lack! A huge part of what my issues with this whole thing are his rights! We bend over backwards all the time in the courts to ensure murderers have their rights met, but clearly not in this case. I think in this case with this child, his WHOLE BEING needs to be thought about.

[QUOTE=oceanblueeyes;3255356]I know I read somewhere, that the first time he was released a dentention officer had to accompany him. I am sure that is to make sure that he is safe and also to make sure he and his mother does not discuss the case among themselves. There is no privilege between a mother/child.

Is that in one of the docs posted here? I have never read that. so you mean having someone there 24/7?

its really odd if you live in the area and know that its a nasty drive thru salt river canyon to get to showlow from san carlos

Really, it is not a "nasty" drive, I think it depends on your point of view, it is quite scenic with great roads, can be very relaxing. IMO

[oceanblueeyes]

I too think they are bluffing, if not, SHOW YOUR HAND! Do you really think if they had this case all wrapped up, they would continue to hold it close to the chest?? NO WAY! They would be sky writing it!
I think the judge too believes there is not evidence, if there is so much, why the furloughs? Now that should be an out cry from the towns people!


How do you know that the townspeople aren't highly upset about this. Even if they are dismayed I do think they respect the court's ruling whether they agree with it or not.

Well there is more discovery. 33 witnesses in fact and transcripts of their statements, some which are lengthy.


http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[mrrogers]

:waitasec: i havent heard of him taking the plea. criss candeleria said he didnt want to prosecute the kid who knows what whiting wants the defense has to file a motion for the state to clarify there motion so the defense would know what it meant thats sad
hes still got the shooting reinactment guy and the false confession guy to have do there work so i could take forever

[mrrogers]

Thanks, Fairy. I remember that, now.

augustine logan:waitasec:
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...arny%20Justice

[SoobsinMI]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx


Any thoughts on why the competency hearing has been vacated? It doesn't look like it has been rescheduled.

[azmama]

How do you know that the townspeople aren't highly upset about this. Even if they are dismayed I do think they respect the court's ruling whether they agree with it or not.




Well, it would not be a crime nor disrespectful for people to come out and talk about it, if they felt they were in danger. I am fairly local to the area and it is not being discussed, that was what I base that on.

[azmama]

augustine logan:waitasec:
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...arny%20Justice

I am getting an error screen, can you repost the link? Thank you!

[azmama]

Any thoughts on why the competency hearing has been vacated? It doesn't look like it has been rescheduled.

It shows Feb 12 at 4pm

The February 5, 2009 Status Hearing has been reset to Thursday, February 12, 2009 at 4:00 p.m. Items to be addressed include the pending Motion to Dismiss.

The February 13, 2009 Competency Hearing has been vacated and will be reset upon consultation with the evaluators.

The juvenile’s furlough has been extended with the court providing clarification of release conditions. Further details are unavailable.

Are you seeing the text of all of these disclosures? If so could you please point me in that direction? I can't find it at all.

Thanks

[Fairy1]

I'm thinking we should agree to disagree until all the facts are in on this one. We all can believe what we will on this case, but until we know the facts, we truly just don't know. I'm the first to admit that I generally rush to judgement on most cases but, this time, I have to withhold. No, I do not want to believe that an 8-year-old child is capable of premeditated, cold-blooded murder. But more to the point, I don't want to believe that any PD would be willing to pin such a crime on a child who is NOT guilty. I sincerely hope the forensic evidence and the investigation will clear it all up - whatever way it goes.

[Bobbisangel]

I wanted to comment on several items in the past couple of pages without making a bunch of seperate posts, quotes are reduced for space as to what I am specifically pointing out.



I agree with all of this, the LE has not shown one piece of evidence that shows that the boy committed this murder...a very slippery slope. Comment about the drive below.



Why is it so reasonable for you to assume what did or did not happen between Tim and Candy and just to assume his intentions and yet nail someone else to the wall about an opinion of the boy? The fact is, we do not know, and IMO men do not discuss things of this nature (in a bonding type of fashion) like women do, so it would not seem odd to me at all that Leroy wouldn't know anything.......



I too think they are bluffing, if not, SHOW YOUR HAND! Do you really think if they had this case all wrapped up, they would continue to hold it close to the chest?? NO WAY! They would be sky writing it!
I think the judge too believes there is not evidence, if there is so much, why the furloughs? Now that should be an out cry from the towns people!




So what is it you think the Judge should be doing? If he is guilty, how can the furloughs be justified? What is your theory on those issues?
It is an odd case to be sure, but there have been other child murderers, and THEY never got any furloughs!

[QUOTE=oceanblueeyes;3253399]If they got nothing on him why has he been held for three months? And why is he out for only a week and not for good?IMO because they have a confession, do you see LE going around all the time parading their mistakes? No, not really, unless their hand is forced. And this is a BIG mistake, one that can potentially cost the LE there millions!

I would expect you are certainly right about your children however this boy is not your child and I bet your children have never even been arrested and charged for any crime, much less double homicide. Neither had he! He couldn't even remember a paper he was supposed to bring home from school, but we are expected to believe he planned all of this out? He is a child none the less and there are not a lot of children that pull something like this off, it just doesn't make sense in my mind is what I am saying. It is quite obvious to me that it does in yours, that's all. I really see a lack of human compassion from my point of view from you toward this boy, I think that is why I spend so much time trying to convince you, because I can not understand that lack! A huge part of what my issues with this whole thing are his rights! We bend over backwards all the time in the courts to ensure murderers have their rights met, but clearly not in this case. I think in this case with this child, his WHOLE BEING needs to be thought about.



Is that in one of the docs posted here? I have never read that. so you mean having someone there 24/7?



Really, it is not a "nasty" drive, I think it depends on your point of view, it is quite scenic with great roads, can be very relaxing. IMO


We are not going to see any evidence or hear about it because there is a gag order on this case. No one knows what LE has or doesn't have. We really know next to nothing about this case and that is the way LE and the Judge want it. We can second guess all we want but that doesn't make it so.

[SoobsinMI]

It shows Feb 12 at 4pm

The February 5, 2009 Status Hearing has been reset to Thursday, February 12, 2009 at 4:00 p.m. Items to be addressed include the pending Motion to Dismiss.

The February 13, 2009 Competency Hearing has been vacated and will be reset upon consultation with the evaluators.

The juvenile’s furlough has been extended with the court providing clarification of release conditions. Further details are unavailable.

Are you seeing the text of all of these disclosures? If so could you please point me in that direction? I can't find it at all.

Thanks

Thanks, Azmama. The only text I am seeing, is whatever is posted on the link above.

[fran]

Well, I'm encouraged by the most recently developments. Encouraged that there is SOMETHING going on behind the scenes and maybe, JUST maybe, these two vicitims will get justice with the TRUE/REAL killer apprehended.

IMHO, IF the judge really suspected this child guilty of double murder (premeditated too!) he would NOT release him on furlough. NO way!

FWIW, I do NOT know who did this crime, but I do believe it was someone OTHER THAN this child.

JMHO
fran


http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

NEWS RELEASE
APACHE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT

February 4, 2009
ST. JOHNS – The Court has taken several actions in case number JV-2008-065 today.

<<<<<<<<full text at link>>>>>>>>>

[oceanblueeyes]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

[fran]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

The defense attorney is not as concerned about time, now that the child has been released to his mom and not sitting behind bars.

Now is the time to be SURE a thorough investigation is done. REAL investigations take time, not 20 hours.

JMHO
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

The defense attorney is not as concerned about time, now that the child has been released to his mom and not sitting behind bars.

Now is the time to be SURE a thorough investigation is done. REAL investigations take time, not 20 hours.

JMHO
fran

They have had three months. They have had their own defense team and investigators and experts.

You mean they would rather still have double premeditated homicides hanging over his head all the while knowing they have exonerating evidence?:waitasec:

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

[SoobsinMI]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

I believe the delay is to address the motion to dismiss. I don't think a "delay" of one week is a bad thing, with regard to the defense.

[SoobsinMI]

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

Perhaps. But let's be clear, the defense does NOT have to "prove" his innocence. It's the obligation and burden of the prosecution. And I think that the motion to dismiss is one way the defense is being proactive.

[oceanblueeyes]

Perhaps. But let's be clear, the defense does NOT have to "prove" his innocence. It's the obligation and burden of the prosecution. And I think that the motion to dismiss is one way the defense is being proactive.


That is absolutely true and I have never implied any differently.

But it has been said that the defense has exonerating evidence showing this boy did not do the crimes. Any defense attorney would be derelict in their duties if they did not provide that evidence to the court immediately. It would certainly be in the best interest of his client if he has it.

Arizona is a reciprocal discovery state. BOTH prosecution and the defense MUST turnover all discovery. Either one can be sanctioned for not doing so. So with this case droning on for three months where is the defense discovery? It should also include any exonerating or exculpatory evidence. There are no surprises in criminal cases.

Yes, he does seem to be fighting hard so that the motion to dismiss count one is delayed over and over again. I wonder why, if he is so sure how Roca is going to rule?

imoo

[SoobsinMI]

Yes, he does seem to be fighting hard so that the motion to dismiss count one is delayed over and over again. I wonder why, if he is so sure how Roca is going to rule?

imoo

Didn't Roca say he wasn't going to rule on any major motions before the competency hearing? At least until a few weeks ago, when the Supreme Court told him he could.

As for reciprocity - I don't recall any information the defense has turned over yet. I could be wrong.

[fran]

They have had three months. They have had their own defense team and investigators and experts.

You mean they would rather still have double premeditated homicides hanging over his head all the while knowing they have exonerating evidence?:waitasec:

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

This isn't a 60 minute program on tv, that can be investigated, solved, tried and convicted all within the time allotted. This is REAL life and lives have been taken and lives are at stake. It takes time to do a REAL investigation to catch REAL criminals (ie murderer(s)).

This case is SUPPOSED to be under investigation by St. John's PD and as you stated, the child's attorney has his own investigators as well. We are not privvy, and hopefully, the REAL killer isn't either, of WHAT? LE or the attorney knows. It will take time to put all the pieces of this investigation together.

The pros just recently provided pages and pages of discovery to the court and def. It takes time to pour over this information and for the def to act on the 'new' information they've received. This is also under the legal jurisdiction of the courts and procedures must be followed. We can see that by the recent documents filed. Every little 't' must be crossed before they can replace it with an 'i' that then again needs to be dotted, LEGALLY, as well.

I haven't seen where the def has said unequivocally that they had exonerating evidence. They said they 'felt' they did and this was in response to 'evidence' provided by the pros. So the pros is well aware of what the def has. I guess it just means the def may have looked at the same thing the pros has and run a different direction with it.

Like the 22 spent shell casings and the 'missing' gun. The pros claims it's the child's gun that was the murder weapon and the def might have looked into the missing gun.

The pros, or at least one of the officers, declared on their report that the two trucks the witness saw in front to the murder scene was Tim's truck and the neighbor who called 911, while the def might have figured out it was NOT the neighbor's truck and 911 callers, but the murderer and Tim and Vince and then Vince went inside the house and it was Tim and the murderer the witness saw the second time,...........just seconds before the killing.

The pros said the child planned this crime and they served a SW to retrieve the alleged evidence of his plan, the "l000 spanking" record. The pros is well aware that they NEVER found this alleged 'evidence' and so is the judge and so is the def attorney. and so are we aware of it.

The pros turned over all sorts of 'witness statements' between ST. John PD and the subjects. The def has probably talked to these people as well. There could very well be 'additional' info revealed in these witness statements to the def, that leads them in a different direction than LE. They can't turn over anything until these leads are checked out.

Isn't anyone curious why the def has called a 'witness' that was in contact with the child while he was incarcerated? FWIW, I read somewhere else that the child is having difficulty sleeping at night because of nightmares. He's apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him.

Doesn't sound like a murderer to me. :waitasec: Sounds more like a witness who knows someone might come back to get the only alive witness to them being at the murder scene.:rolleyes: this, imho, is NOT something an 8 yo child can fake,TERROR!

The def cannot put their evidence forward until they have the opportunity, ie court proceeding. The ball is in the judge's court and the hearings have been delayed. The def can't just proclaim the child's innocence and the case is dismissed. The pros has made this mess by filing charges before they had the evidence. Now the def has to play the game in court, before a judge.

Now we are going to have to wait to see what either side has. I don't believe too much is going to be revealed in future filings because,..........HOPEFULLY,.......St John's PD and the pros AND the def,....don't want to show their hand in a hopefully OPEN investigation. No sense in letting a KILLER know they're on to 'em.

JMHO
fran

[fran]

I truly believe this def attorney KNOWS his client, this child, is innocent. He also knows what can happen if the pros has the one case thrown out and IF the child is found incompetent to stand trial. This child COULD later be tried for one of the murders AND the 'label' of 'murderer' would forever hang over this child's head.

This attorney, IMO, knows the St. John's PD completely blew this investigation and this supposed confession is BS,..........EVERY expert that has seen the tape of the alleged confession, have stated it was coerced.

The statement made by the boy's lawyer, of wanting to 'exonerate' his client, I honestly believe. He is well aware that the only way to 'clear' this child's name, is to solve the crime.

Right now, this attorney is court appointed. The people of Arizona are not only paying for the investigation by the 'people,' they're paying for the def investigation too.

REAL LIFE investigations, especially murder investigations, can take, days, weeks, months, and sometimes years. From things I've posted previously about variable 'possible' circumstances and people involved with these two victims, these vicitm's families, work, the local bar, extra-marital affairs and psycho b/f's, and on and on, should tell anyone, this is NOT an open and shut case. St John PD has a LOT of work in front of them to figure this puzzle out. :waitasec:

It could even be more complicated than even WE think. This could be just a 'random act of violence,' which in itself, COULD make this crime IMPOSSIBLE to solve.

JMHO
fran

[southcitymom]

If "others" killed these two men, I do not know why the child never indicated that in his tape confession. I understand that the confession was probably legally improper, but it still provides some limited insight into this child that is fair to consider. He did not appear frightened or even particularly upset.

[Linda7NJ]

Sniped

Isn't anyone curious why the def has called a 'witness' that was in contact with the child while he was incarcerated? FWIW, I read somewhere else that the child is having difficulty sleeping at night because of nightmares. He's apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him.

Doesn't sound like a murderer to me. :waitasec: Sounds more like a witness who knows someone might come back to get the only alive witness to them being at the murder scene.:rolleyes: this, imho, is NOT something an 8 yo child can fake,TERROR!


JMHO
fran

Where does this "apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him." coming from?

I think she will simply say he is having difficulty adjusting to detention. No big surprise there. grown adult men often cry themselves to sleep in their cells. Detention isn't supposed to be a Disney Vacation.

[fran]

If "others" killed these two men, I do not know why the child never indicated that in his tape confession. I understand that the confession was probably legally improper, but it still provides some limited insight into this child that is fair to consider. He did not appear frightened or even particularly upset.

I don't know if you've watched ALL of the tape and read different versions of the transcript of the child's ALLEGED confession, but the child did refer to 'others' who may have done this and 'who would do this?' and 'bad people' must have done this and 'shoot my father?' and 'why would I shoot Tim?' and ALL that,..................ONCE they told the child 'YOU did shoot a gun' and he finally confessed,...............when asked where his dad was when he shot him, 'laying on the ground,' and where was Tim when you shot him, 'laying on the ground,'

Yeah, sure,............confession,.............NOT!

Just imagine if it were your child or your grandson who'd come across two brutally murdered men, one of them his own father, he was running around the house not knowing what he was doing, runs to a neighbor to call police, finally when his step mom arrives he's crying, taken to a neighbors where he went into the back bedroom and layed down, then questioned by LE, then went to his grandma's and cuddled with her throughout the night crying off and on.....................only to be taken in first thing the next morning for more questioning and then being told he 'DID shoot a gun,'...........next think he's taken in handcuffs and thrown behind bars.

A traumitized 8 yo, 'WHAT were they thinking?'

SHAME.....................:mad:
fran

[fran]

Where does this "apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him." coming from?

I think she will simply say he is having difficulty adjusting to detention. No big surprise there. grown adult men often cry themselves to sleep in their cells. Detention isn't supposed to be a Disney Vacation.

IMHO, I hope by the time this child is cleared and is done with the St. John's PD, they'll wish they had sent him on a Disney vacation. Bet the people of St. Johns will not be too happy having to pay out for 'false arrest' of an 8 yo either.

Course, that's just my opinion,
;)
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

Where does this "apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him." coming from?

I think she will simply say he is having difficulty adjusting to detention. No big surprise there. grown adult men often cry themselves to sleep in their cells. Detention isn't supposed to be a Disney Vacation.


Brewer states why she is being called.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/04/20090204childcharged.html

The attorneys are looking to the director to provide an assessment of how the boy is faring in jail among other detainees who are at least a couple of years older, Brewer added.

But why is it necessary to call her if this boy is going to remain out of detention anyway and soon set free?

imoo

[fran]

Brewer states why she is being called.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/04/20090204childcharged.html

The attorneys are looking to the director to provide an assessment of how the boy is faring in jail among other detainees who are at least a couple of years older, Brewer added.

But why is it necessary to call her if this boy is going to remain out of detention anyway and soon set free?

imoo


From the same article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/04/20090204childcharged.html

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said some "behind-the-scenes wrangling" forced Thursday's hearing to be pushed back a week to Feb. 12. He declined to elaborate.

"We aren't going to delay something for no reason," Brewer said. "There's always a reason to what we're doing. We're in a position where we can't comment on a lot of that."

[southcitymom]

I don't know if you've watched ALL of the tape and read different versions of the transcript of the child's ALLEGED confession, but the child did refer to 'others' who may have done this and 'who would do this?' and 'bad people' must have done this and 'shoot my father?' and 'why would I shoot Tim?' and ALL that,..................ONCE they told the child 'YOU did shoot a gun' and he finally confessed,...............when asked where his dad was when he shot him, 'laying on the ground,' and where was Tim when you shot him, 'laying on the ground,'

Yeah, sure,............confession,.............NOT!

Just imagine if it were your child or your grandson who'd come across two brutally murdered men, one of them his own father, he was running around the house not knowing what he was doing, runs to a neighbor to call police, finally when his step mom arrives he's crying, taken to a neighbors where he went into the back bedroom and layed down, then questioned by LE, then went to his grandma's and cuddled with her throughout the night crying off and on.....................only to be taken in first thing the next morning for more questioning and then being told he 'DID shoot a gun,'...........next think he's taken in handcuffs and thrown behind bars.

A traumitized 8 yo, 'WHAT were they thinking?'

SHAME.....................:mad:
fran

I have done that, fran, several times. But I come away with different impressions than you do. However thanks for reminding me about when he talked about "others."

No piece of me sensed a traumatized child in that video or written transcripts. And I do know people react differently to trauma.

Whether or not that confession is legally valid (and, as a general rule, I don't think a child this age should be questioned without at least having an adult caretaker present), it is a very interesting thing to consider in discussing the case.

I am glad the child is home with his mother, but I do believe that he was the one who pulled the trigger.

I'm not up to date on the forensics - I believe we are still waiting on those results, right? I wonder if they will be made public now that there is a gad order on the case.

[oceanblueeyes]

From the same article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/04/20090204childcharged.html

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said some "behind-the-scenes wrangling" forced Thursday's hearing to be pushed back a week to Feb. 12. He declined to elaborate.

"We aren't going to delay something for no reason," Brewer said. "There's always a reason to what we're doing. We're in a position where we can't comment on a lot of that."

What does that have to do with calling the Detention Administrator to testify how he is adapting in detention?

Of course there is wrangling going on behind the scene. One doesn't just wrangle by themselves.

Also of course there is always a reason for everything but we have no idea what those reasons may be.

And you didn't answer my question. If the defense attorneys are so sure that the boy is going to be released for good then why the need to call a detention administer at all to tell how poorly he is adapting?



imoo

[southcitymom]

What does that have to do with calling the Detention Administrator to testifying how is adapting in detention?

Of course there is wrangling going on behind the scene. One doesn't just wrangle by themselves.

Also of course there is always a reason for everything but we have no idea what those reasons may be.

And you didn't answer my question. If the defense attorneys are so sure that the boy is going to be released for good then why the need to call a detention administer at all to tell how poorly he is adapting?



imoo

Just catching up on the latest with thus case, OBE. And I agree that there would be no need to call a Detention Center rep if the child's attorney was convinced he was going to be released for good.

[fran]

I have done that, fran, several times. But I come away with different impressions than you do. However thanks for reminding me about when he talked about "others."

No piece of me sensed a traumatized child in that video or written transcripts. And I do know people react differently to trauma.

Whether or not that confession is legally valid (and, as a general rule, I don't think a child this age should be questioned without at least having an adult caretaker present), it is a very interesting thing to consider in discussing the case.

I am glad the child is home with his mother, but I do believe that he was the one who pulled the trigger.

I'm not up to date on the forensics - I believe we are still waiting on those results, right? I wonder if they will be made public now that there is a gad order on the case.


Just for curiousity sake, what makes you believe he pulled the trigger?
1. We do NOT know what the murder weapon was?
2. There's been nothing to tell us the child was home when the shooting occurred?
3. The child said he was approaching and saw a white car speeding away from the house? LE did NOT look for this car.
4. There's an automatic 22 rifle missing from the home. Aren't you curious where it is?
5. Wouldn't you like to know where the fil was when he talked to Vince just minutes before he was murdered?
6. Shouldn't we know 'which' grandpa it was that came after school sometimes? Was it the grandpa who has a white car 'just like' the one the boy saw leaving the scene? or was it the grandpa who's gun is missing? or ???
7. What about the ex-fellow employee that didn't like the two victims? He drives a small white pick-up. Tim got his foreman job. The guy was an ex-ranger military and hadn't been the same since his son was murdered a year prior in a bar room fight?
8. What about Tim's cousin who shot a hole in Tim's truck? The cousin that is on drugs? Could Vince have caught him robbing the house? Could the cousin have 'borrowed' Tim's mom's car. Tim's mom does have a 'white car?'
9. Why won't Tim's wife talk to LE? I know her attorney is a 'civil attorney,' but the last time St. John's LE tried to talk to her, she told them to talk to her lawyer. Why?
10. Why was Vince's wife going to parties just weeks after he was murdered?
11. Could it be Vince's wife's sister or one of her friends. She has been arrested for drug possession?
12. What about the witness who saw two trucks and three guys standing in front of the murder scene, just about the time of the murders? Do you think we should just assume it was LE he saw, and NOT look into the possibility it was the murderer and the victims?

The only forensics back is finger prints on the box of ammunition, which doesn't say anything because the item was from the home where the boy resided. Vince's prints were probably on that box too, as well as his wife's?

Why haven't we seen the forensics from the spent shells and the gun. Not the ballistics per se, but the finger print evidence? Could it be because the boy's prints aren't on them?

We should NOT assume anything until everything is back.

I will just agree to disagree about the boy's demeanor as well. From what I read, at different times, he was very emotional. It just doesn't look good to the pros or LE if they spell it out. But,........it's there. You just need to look.

JMHO
fran

[mrrogers]

I don't know if you've watched ALL of the tape and read different versions of the transcript of the child's ALLEGED confession, but the child did refer to 'others' who may have done this and 'who would do this?' and 'bad people' must have done this and 'shoot my father?' and 'why would I shoot Tim?' and ALL that,..................ONCE they told the child 'YOU did shoot a gun' and he finally confessed,...............when asked where his dad was when he shot him, 'laying on the ground,' and where was Tim when you shot him, 'laying on the ground,'

Yeah, sure,............confession,.............NOT!

Just imagine if it were your child or your grandson who'd come across two brutally murdered men, one of them his own father, he was running around the house not knowing what he was doing, runs to a neighbor to call police, finally when his step mom arrives he's crying, taken to a neighbors where he went into the back bedroom and layed down, then questioned by LE, then went to his grandma's and cuddled with her throughout the night crying off and on.....................only to be taken in first thing the next morning for more questioning and then being told he 'DID shoot a gun,'...........next think he's taken in handcuffs and thrown behind bars.

A traumitized 8 yo, 'WHAT were they thinking?'

SHAME.....................:mad:
fran

on a recent video report one of the principals involved fleetingly almost by accident referrd to a new suspect but would not elaborate further when questioned. i think for this thing to be solved some other agency is going to have to investigate. the police quit investigating at 11am the day after cr was arrested

[Linda7NJ]

on a recent video report one of the principals involved fleetingly almost by accident referrd to a new suspect but would not elaborate further when questioned. i think for this thing to be solved some other agency is going to have to investigate. the police quit investigating at 11am the day after cr was arrested

Please provide a link to this supposed video report.

[southcitymom]

.....

We should NOT assume anything until everything is back.

I will just agree to disagree about the boy's demeanor as well. From what I read, at different times, he was very emotional. It just doesn't look good to the pros or LE if they spell it out. But,........it's there. You just need to look.

JMHO
fran

Well, we all make assumptions in every case we discuss here way before the evidence is back. And I agree that the boy has been emotional in Court and at others times. He is a child and he is scared - I don't doubt that for a second.

Why do you say the child was not at home when it occurred - Tim's wife who was on the phone with him said he told her the little boy was calling him inside. I guess by some of your questions, you are intimating his wife is hinky or not to be trusted.

I am interested in the forensics, but in many cases that information is not released to the general pubic for a while - sometimes, not even until trial. I don't consider that unusual.

My opinion that the boy pulled the trigger is based primarily on his confession in conjunction with the phone call between Tim and his wife and other things I have read. It makes sense to me - as much sense as it can make I felt that way early in the case and nothing else I have read has changed my mind. I don't claim to have all the evidence or facts,of course - none of us do. These are just my impressions.

I'll be delighted if I turn out to be wrong.

[gitana1]

Any updates on this case? Kid still in jail? Any info on if he may be released pending trial? if so, when? Thanks!

[fran]

FWIW, it is possible that Tim's wife did in fact hear the child call Tim. But NOT from inside the house................it's kind of confusing, but if you listen to and read the various interpretations of the boy's alleged confession it goes something like this.........

The boy was approaching the house from around the corner, actually from a side street. That's why he didn't see his dad and Tim arrive at the house. They didn't pass him and he wasn't watching the cars ahead.

As he approached his home, four doors down, he could see Tim's truck in front through the trees. Somewhere in here is where it gets confusing, he saw someone from outside go towards the house. Officers didn't ask follow-up questions.

The boy then said two doors down he called Tim's name and then said he could see Tim laying in the doorway. When asked why he called him from so far away, the child said 'because he THOUGHT he 'heard' Tim.' Then he saw a white car drive FAST. All white, small car, like grandpa's only without back rims,.......or black wheels (no hubcaps).

No further follow-up by LE on the car, no further question about WHO? it was he saw going into the house or if he saw someone coming out.

Just imagine the child running from two doors down, calling Tim's name and finding him shot, blood all over. He runs into the house calling his dad's name, then jutting up the stairs only to find his dad laying in a pool of blood. The child lies next to his dad, it could have been only seconds, but to an 8 yo, those seconds with his dead father's body could have seen like an eternity.

He said to himself, 'who could have done this?' He was AFRAID the bad men would come back. He thought it could be the 'bad people' down the street because they smoke and act all bad and drive fast.

The child 'forgets' he has a cell phone in his room, but runs to the safety of a neighbors to tell them what he found at home and to call the police.

Did the child handle the single-bolt action 22 gun? Who knows! At this point, I don't think even he knows what he did when he was running around the house with two dead bodies, 'white smoke' in the air, the smell of death.......

This child was and may STILL be in shock.
Where are these pros and St. John's PD humanity?
What were they thinking?

Good grief,
:(
fran

[fran]

Any updates on this case? Kid still in jail? Any info on if he may be released pending trial? if so, when? Thanks!

Yes, LOTS happening,...........BEHIND the scenes. Now all court hearings are either postponed or vacated (until further notice).........

The child is on 'furlough,' at home with his mom, Eryn. Until next week, that is. THEN, who knows?

Hopefully, LE has returned to investigating this crime, because they sure didn't do much investigating BEFORE they arrested the boy. Maybe this time, they could get it RIGHT..........;)

JMHO
fran

[southcitymom]

I appreciate your looking at different possible scenarios that don't point to the child, Fran. I truly do. It's just not my interpretation of the tapes and transcripts. I think it's a stretch.

I have an 8-year-old son and know lots more little boys this age. This child's demeanor on tape and the different stories he tells, all of it - it's just not indicative of a child in shock over finding his dead father and friend. That's strictly my interpretation, but I feel strongly about it.

I don't think LE has flubbed this to the point that they have imprisoned and charged a child with a crime of this magnitude without enough pieces to believe he is guilty. Thus far, LE's theories make sense to me.

What is up with this child getting some psychological help? Is he undergoing any therapy - court-ordered or at the pros or defense's request or otherwise?

[gitana1]

Yes, LOTS happening,...........BEHIND the scenes. Now all court hearings are either postponed or vacated (until further notice).........

The child is on 'furlough,' at home with his mom, Eryn. Until next week, that is. THEN, who knows?

Hopefully, LE has returned to investigating this crime, because they sure didn't do much investigating BEFORE they arrested the boy. Maybe this time, they could get it RIGHT..........;)

JMHO
fran

Thanks, fran. How long has the kid been with his mom?

[fran]

Thanks, fran. How long has the kid been with his mom?

y/w gitana!

I think the boy went with Eryn either Thursday or Friday of last week. There's some sort of hearing next week, so we'll see what happens then. At least he's home for now.

:)
fran

[fran]

I appreciate your looking at different possible scenarios that don't point to the child, Fran. I truly do. It's just not my interpretation of the tapes and transcripts. I think it's a stretch.

I have an 8-year-old son and know lots more little boys this age. This child's demeanor on tape and the different stories he tells, all of it - it's just not indicative of a child in shock over finding his dead father and friend. That's strictly my interpretation, but I feel strongly about it.

I don't think LE has flubbed this to the point that they have imprisoned and charged a child with a crime of this magnitude without enough pieces to believe he is guilty. Thus far, LE's theories make sense to me.

What is up with this child getting some psychological help? Is he undergoing any therapy - court-ordered or at the pros or defense's request or otherwise?


I haven't been looking for anything other than the child, southcitymom, it's just that's where everything points, IMHO. There's way too many unanswered questions to tell who did this crime. Way too many additional POI.

I live with my 8 yo grandson, so I too know several children this age. I'm not saying all of them could be talked into a 'false confession,' but I honestly do believe this could happen,........and even to my own grandson. Children this age are very gullible and can be manipulated very easily. At least the children I know this age.

I personally feel the St. John's version of the crime is implausible. I cannot see a child this age being able to carry out such a crime with a single-bolt action 22 gun, against two able body men, almost simultaneously. There's no way he could carry that out without one of them getting even close to him AND not dropping one single shell.

It's my belief that St John's PD rushed to judgment on this case and did NOT know the facts. They THOUGHT the boy's gun was the weapon used in this crime, but I'm willing to bet that by now, they've found out the contrary. I still think it's most likely the grandfather's 22 automatic, that's still missing, as far as I know. IF the child's fingerprints aren't on those spent shell casings, that's game over for trying this child for this crime.

Just because evidence was submitted, doesn't mean it's pointing towards this child. Everything isn't always as it MAY seem. My daughter is a forensic chemist and testifies in different states for the pros. Sometimes the evidence, ............just is NOT there.

I'm not sure about treatment for the boy. I know they had some hearings about it earlier and the person seeing him was able to talk to him through a window. I'm not sure how that's going now.

JMHO
fran

[Fairy1]

I haven't been looking for anything other than the child, southcitymom, it's just that's where everything points, IMHO. There's way too many unanswered questions to tell who did this crime. Way too many additional POI.

I live with my 8 yo grandson, so I too know several children this age. I'm not saying all of them could be talked into a 'false confession,' but I honestly do believe this could happen,........and even to my own grandson. Children this age are very gullible and can be manipulated very easily. At least the children I know this age.

I personally feel the St. John's version of the crime is implausible. I cannot see a child this age being able to carry out such a crime with a single-bolt action 22 gun, against two able body men, almost simultaneously. There's no way he could carry that out without one of them getting even close to him AND not dropping one single shell.

It's my belief that St John's PD rushed to judgment on this case and did NOT know the facts. They THOUGHT the boy's gun was the weapon used in this crime, but I'm willing to bet that by now, they've found out the contrary. I still think it's most likely the grandfather's 22 automatic, that's still missing, as far as I know. IF the child's fingerprints aren't on those spent shell casings, that's game over for trying this child for this crime.

Just because evidence was submitted, doesn't mean it's pointing towards this child. Everything isn't always as it MAY seem. My daughter is a forensic chemist and testifies in different states for the pros. Sometimes the evidence, ............just is NOT there.

I'm not sure about treatment for the boy. I know they had some hearings about it earlier and the person seeing him was able to talk to him through a window. I'm not sure how that's going now.

JMHO
fran

Totally agree with you Fran. Unless this boy is a genious - and I don't think we've seen any evidence of that either - it just doesn't make any sense. Children at this age generally have a difficult time articulating their thoughts and feelings. I can interpret his demeanor in whatever way makes sense to me, but I am not an 8-year-old child in his circumstances.

[oceanblueeyes]

Just for curiosity sake, what makes you believe he pulled the trigger?
1. We do NOT know what the murder weapon was?
2. There's been nothing to tell us the child was home when the shooting occurred?
3. The child said he was approaching and saw a white car speeding away from the house? LE did NOT look for this car.
4. There's an automatic 22 rifle missing from the home. Aren't you curious where it is?
5. Wouldn't you like to know where the fil was when he talked to Vince just minutes before he was murdered?
6. Shouldn't we know 'which' grandpa it was that came after school sometimes? Was it the grandpa who has a white car 'just like' the one the boy saw leaving the scene? or was it the grandpa who's gun is missing? or ???
7. What about the ex-fellow employee that didn't like the two victims? He drives a small white pick-up. Tim got his foreman job. The guy was an ex-ranger military and hadn't been the same since his son was murdered a year prior in a bar room fight?
8. What about Tim's cousin who shot a hole in Tim's truck? The cousin that is on drugs? Could Vince have caught him robbing the house? Could the cousin have 'borrowed' Tim's mom's car. Tim's mom does have a 'white car?'
9. Why won't Tim's wife talk to LE? I know her attorney is a 'civil attorney,' but the last time St. John's LE tried to talk to her, she told them to talk to her lawyer. Why?
10. Why was Vince's wife going to parties just weeks after he was murdered?
11. Could it be Vince's wife's sister or one of her friends. She has been arrested for drug possession?
12. What about the witness who saw two trucks and three guys standing in front of the murder scene, just about the time of the murders? Do you think we should just assume it was LE he saw, and NOT look into the possibility it was the murderer and the victims?

The only forensics back is finger prints on the box of ammunition, which doesn't say anything because the item was from the home where the boy resided. Vince's prints were probably on that box too, as well as his wife's?

Why haven't we seen the forensics from the spent shells and the gun. Not the ballistics per se, but the finger print evidence? Could it be because the boy's prints aren't on them?

We should NOT assume anything until everything is back.

I will just agree to disagree about the boy's demeanor as well. From what I read, at different times, he was very emotional. It just doesn't look good to the pros or LE if they spell it out. But,........it's there. You just need to look.

JMHO
fran

1. And we don't know if there was another weapon. We do know it was a 22. and the statement given by the neighbors who heard the shots is consistent with a single bolt action rifle that has a "pop" and then a "delay" each time....and is not consistent with a semi automatic or automatic.

2. The child has no alibi as to his whereabouts from the time he got off the bus until he went to the neighbors in back of him. He was conveniently not seen as he did his multiple walkabout. Which means he very likely went home and waited for his dad. He would know the approximate time he arrived as it was said that Vinnie and Tim get off around 4:30 everyday.

3. The police did try to find who drove a white car.

4. We have no clue if a gun is missing. The gun did not belong to Vinnie, it very well may have been picked up prior to this happening.

5. No, I have no need to wonder where the fil was at the time he called. They have the cell records and can tell which tower pinged when the call was made.

6. The boy did not say it was his grandfather's car, he was describing it being "white" like his granddaddy's. He would know his car by sight.

7. Lots of coworkers don't like it each other. People get fired and someone else becomes the foreman. A car is not a truck and the boy would know the difference.

8. The shot to Tim's truck happened on the reservation at a party in San Carlos. The caliber was not the same as the weapon used to commit the murders.

9. I think Tanya was extremely upset upon learning of the alleged affair and left the room out of raw emotions. I do believe she is in communication with the DA, since that time, imo.

10. Irrelevant. IMO she has an iron clad alibi.

11. There was no robbery. No drugs found in the home nor in both of their systems at autopsy. No evidence to support that drugs were being used or sold. Tiffany said they did not do drugs. I believe her because the evidence bolsters her statement.

12. That has been cleared up and were people that were with the Davis' at the crime scene.

All the forensics that we are aware of is they found his fingerprints on the box of bullets and GSR on his clothing. Both does not point away from this boy.

We haven't seen the actual results because all we ever see is the cover sheet to the supplemental disclosures. With almost 400 pages of documents from the DPS investigation and a 26 page lab report, I do believe the results are back and there is some wrangling going on behind the scene.

I saw no emotion in this child until he knew his story wasn't going to wash and he was going to juvie. Then he cried for himself. Before then he was very chatty and engaging. Seeming to feel no pressure at all. He did not even show one ounce of sadness when he talked about his dad.



imo

[MeoW333]

I thought the neighbor's wouldn't be able to hear the sound of a .22 as one the boy had, if it were shot indoors? I thought the sound wouldn't be loud enough to carry?

[oceanblueeyes]

I thought the neighbor's wouldn't be able to hear the sound of a .22 as one the boy had, if it were shot indoors? I thought the sound wouldn't be loud enough to carry?


Imo, the neighbors did not hear the shots that killed Vinnie, inside the enclosed home. They heard some of the shots that were fired to the outside at Tim. It isn't uncommon for ear witnesses to not know exactly how many shots they heard. They will usually say "about xxx shots." At the time they are being heard their brains aren't processing how many they are hearing and most often will have to try and remember after the fact. Often times it is off one way or the other as to the actual amount of gunshots that were fired. Even police officers sometimes during an exchange of gunfire do not remember exactly how many shots the perp fired.

imo

[dgfred]

Is that you G B ? You better look out, I'm tailing ya. :crazy:

Hearing the shots like you said can not be relied on.

[dgfred]

1. And we don't know if there was another weapon. We do know it was a 22. and the statement given by the neighbors who heard the shots is consistent with a single bolt action rifle that has a "pop" and then a "delay" each time....and is not consistent with a semi automatic or automatic.

2. The child has no alibi as to his whereabouts from the time he got off the bus until he went to the neighbors in back of him. He was conveniently not seen as he did his multiple walkabout. Which means he very likely went home and waited for his dad. He would know the approximate time he arrived as it was said that Vinnie and Tim get off around 4:30 everyday.

3. The police did try to find who drove a white car.

4. We have no clue if a gun is missing. The gun did not belong to Vinnie, it very well may have been picked up prior to this happening.

5. No, I have no need to wonder where the fil was at the time he called. They have the cell records and can tell which tower pinged when the call was made.

6. The boy did not say it was his grandfather's car, he was describing it being "white" like his granddaddy's. He would know his car by sight.

7. Lots of coworkers don't like it each other. People get fired and someone else becomes the foreman. A car is not a truck and the boy would know the difference.

8. The shot to Tim's truck happened on the reservation at a party in San Carlos. The caliber was not the same as the weapon used to commit the murders.

9. I think Tanya was extremely upset upon learning of the alleged affair and left the room out of raw emotions. I do believe she is in communication with the DA, since that time, imo.

10. Irrelevant. IMO she has an iron clad alibi.

11. There was no robbery. No drugs found in the home nor in both of their systems at autopsy. No evidence to support that drugs were being used or sold. Tiffany said they did not do drugs. I believe her because the evidence bolsters her statement.

12. That has been cleared up and were people that were with the Davis' at the crime scene.

All the forensics that we are aware of is they found his fingerprints on the box of bullets and GSR on his clothing. Both does not point away from this boy.

We haven't seen the actual results because all we ever see is the cover sheet to the supplemental disclosures. With almost 400 pages of documents from the DPS investigation and a 26 page lab report, I do believe the results are back and there is some wrangling going on behind the scene.

I saw no emotion in this child until he knew his story wasn't going to wash and he was going to juvie. Then he cried for himself. Before then he was very chatty and engaging. Seeming to feel no pressure at all. He did not even show one ounce of sadness when he talked about his dad.



imo

1. Can't be the bolt-action imo... we have talked this over.
2. No way the kid 'laid in wait' for his dad to come imo.
3. Why didn't they ask ANY questions about the white car and person seen?
4. A 10-shot 22 is probably missing imo... we have discussed this too :) .
5. Doesn't mean it was planned by and performed by someone else.
6. Right, still they didn't ask him anymore about it.
7. Still the co-workers would be valid suspects 'in most cases'.
8. The statement was about talking to him about his use of the gun anyway.
9. Probably thought they were moving toward her as a suspect too.
10. Very strange and far from ironclad imo.
11. Oh I'm sure she would tell if they were into drugs :rolleyes: .
12. I don't believe it was really 'cleared up'.

He didn't change his story until he was lead there. How can you pick and choose what is a lie and what isn't? There is no way for us to really tell.

Cheers, your pal

[fran]

1. And we don't know if there was another weapon. We do know it was a 22. and the statement given by the neighbors who heard the shots is consistent with a single bolt action rifle that has a "pop" and then a "delay" each time....and is not consistent with a semi automatic or automatic.

2. The child has no alibi as to his whereabouts from the time he got off the bus until he went to the neighbors in back of him. He was conveniently not seen as he did his multiple walkabout. Which means he very likely went home and waited for his dad. He would know the approximate time he arrived as it was said that Vinnie and Tim get off around 4:30 everyday.

3. The police did try to find who drove a white car.

4. We have no clue if a gun is missing. The gun did not belong to Vinnie, it very well may have been picked up prior to this happening.

5. No, I have no need to wonder where the fil was at the time he called. They have the cell records and can tell which tower pinged when the call was made.

6. The boy did not say it was his grandfather's car, he was describing it being "white" like his granddaddy's. He would know his car by sight.

7. Lots of coworkers don't like it each other. People get fired and someone else becomes the foreman. A car is not a truck and the boy would know the difference.

8. The shot to Tim's truck happened on the reservation at a party in San Carlos. The caliber was not the same as the weapon used to commit the murders.

9. I think Tanya was extremely upset upon learning of the alleged affair and left the room out of raw emotions. I do believe she is in communication with the DA, since that time, imo.

10. Irrelevant. IMO she has an iron clad alibi.

11. There was no robbery. No drugs found in the home nor in both of their systems at autopsy. No evidence to support that drugs were being used or sold. Tiffany said they did not do drugs. I believe her because the evidence bolsters her statement.

12. That has been cleared up and were people that were with the Davis' at the crime scene.

All the forensics that we are aware of is they found his fingerprints on the box of bullets and GSR on his clothing. Both does not point away from this boy.

We haven't seen the actual results because all we ever see is the cover sheet to the supplemental disclosures. With almost 400 pages of documents from the DPS investigation and a 26 page lab report, I do believe the results are back and there is some wrangling going on behind the scene.

I saw no emotion in this child until he knew his story wasn't going to wash and he was going to juvie. Then he cried for himself. Before then he was very chatty and engaging. Seeming to feel no pressure at all. He did not even show one ounce of sadness when he talked about his dad.



imo


This is filled entirely with opinions and assumpitions, but lacks the basics, {proof} and {fact}.

Until these assertions are investigated, proved, documented and presented as FACT,.................there's a whole world out there of suspects and for the murderer of these two men to hide.

Just sayin'
fran

[OrdinaryLife]

This is filled entirely with opinions and assumpitions, but lacks the basics, {proof} and {fact}.

Until these assertions are investigated, proved, documented and presented as FACT,.................there's a whole world out there of suspects and for the murderer of these two men to hide.

Just sayin'
fran

Well, I am just simply going to share I agree with Fran's post. 100%.

Just sayin' as well. :)

[Linda7NJ]

1. And we don't know if there was another weapon. We do know it was a 22. and the statement given by the neighbors who heard the shots is consistent with a single bolt action rifle that has a "pop" and then a "delay" each time....and is not consistent with a semi automatic or automatic.

2. The child has no alibi as to his whereabouts from the time he got off the bus until he went to the neighbors in back of him. He was conveniently not seen as he did his multiple walkabout. Which means he very likely went home and waited for his dad. He would know the approximate time he arrived as it was said that Vinnie and Tim get off around 4:30 everyday.

3. The police did try to find who drove a white car.

4. We have no clue if a gun is missing. The gun did not belong to Vinnie, it very well may have been picked up prior to this happening.

5. No, I have no need to wonder where the fil was at the time he called. They have the cell records and can tell which tower pinged when the call was made.

6. The boy did not say it was his grandfather's car, he was describing it being "white" like his granddaddy's. He would know his car by sight.

7. Lots of coworkers don't like it each other. People get fired and someone else becomes the foreman. A car is not a truck and the boy would know the difference.

8. The shot to Tim's truck happened on the reservation at a party in San Carlos. The caliber was not the same as the weapon used to commit the murders.

9. I think Tanya was extremely upset upon learning of the alleged affair and left the room out of raw emotions. I do believe she is in communication with the DA, since that time, imo.

10. Irrelevant. IMO she has an iron clad alibi.

11. There was no robbery. No drugs found in the home nor in both of their systems at autopsy. No evidence to support that drugs were being used or sold. Tiffany said they did not do drugs. I believe her because the evidence bolsters her statement.

12. That has been cleared up and were people that were with the Davis' at the crime scene.

All the forensics that we are aware of is they found his fingerprints on the box of bullets and GSR on his clothing. Both does not point away from this boy.

We haven't seen the actual results because all we ever see is the cover sheet to the supplemental disclosures. With almost 400 pages of documents from the DPS investigation and a 26 page lab report, I do believe the results are back and there is some wrangling going on behind the scene.

I saw no emotion in this child until he knew his story wasn't going to wash and he was going to juvie. Then he cried for himself. Before then he was very chatty and engaging. Seeming to feel no pressure at all. He did not even show one ounce of sadness when he talked about his dad.



imo

I agree 100% with this post.

Just saying:crazy:

[OrdinaryLife]

I agree 100% with this post.

Just saying:crazy:

Cute. :)

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515 Click on St. John update.

I had a feeling that once the DPS investigation was turned in and the 33 witness statements were turned over in discovery things would come out.

I always felt it possible that the boy had already told someone he was going to kill him. Kids talk.

I don't see any abuse proved to have been done by Vinnie except slapping the boy when the boy threatened to kill him. It says there was an unidentified photo on Vinnie's phone of a child with a black eye. I wonder since Vinnie kept it whether it was someone the boy played with and the boy hit them with something causing the black eye. If Vinnie had done it himself and it was this boy, I cant see him taking a picture of it and placing it on his phone to be found.

Now I am really wondering if the poking a stick at a cat that was trapped in a culvert was really just playing.

Now I do wonder just what kind of child this boy really is. The trying to drown his half sister is frightening. Also I would think the witness would have to be someone that was around the Bloomfield family, not the Romero family.

On Tim's phone they say pornography pictures were found, there was no mention if it was kiddie porn and I do believe, if so, the reporter would have ran with that story.

It does clear up some why the grandparents thinks this boy, over other boys, was capable of doing this.

imoo

[SoobsinMI]

http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515 Click on St. John update.

I had a feeling that once the DPS investigation was turned in and the 33 witness statements were turned over in discovery things would come out.

I always felt it possible that the boy had already told someone he was going to kill him. Kids talk.

I don't see any abuse proved to have been done by Vinnie except slapping the boy when the boy threatened to kill him. It says there was an unidentified photo on Vinnie's phone of a child with a black eye. I wonder since Vinnie kept it whether it was someone the boy played with and the boy hit them with something causing the black eye. If Vinnie had done it himself and it was this boy, I cant see him taking a picture of it and placing it on his phone to be found.

Now I am really wondering if the poking a stick at a cat that was trapped in a culvert was really just playing.

Now I do wonder just what kind of child this boy really is. The trying to drown his half sister is frightening. Also I would think the witness would have to be someone that was around the Bloomfield family, not the Romero family.

On Tim's phone they say pornography pictures were found, there was no mention if it was kiddie porn and I do believe, if so, the reporter would have ran with that story.

It does clear up some why the grandparents thinks this boy, over other boys, was capable of doing this.

imoo

The witness statements are disturbing. So is the police report that little boys underwear was found in the home, with blood in it. I would be curious to know where the blood was located. Also, the sexual assault by Tim Romans, that was reported. I'm withholding judgement on the possibility of abuse...I said in the beginning that more than likely, some abuse would be found. It's still possible that this child is just a sociopathic little monster, as some on here have suggested (not you, OBE) but I still have my doubts. I also said it was probable that the child did this, but that I wanted to know WHY.

[oceanblueeyes]

The witness statements are disturbing. So is the police report that little boys underwear was found in the home, with blood in it. I would be curious to know where the blood was located. Also, the sexual assault by Tim Romans, that was reported. I'm withholding judgment on the possibility of abuse...I said in the beginning that more than likely, some abuse would be found. It's still possible that this child is just a sociopathic little monster, as some on here have suggested (not you, OBE) but I still have my doubts. I also said it was probable that the child did this, but that I wanted to know WHY.

Since LE checked the boy from top to bottom when he said he had been spanked, I don't think any evidence of abuse was found. Even four days later both Brewer and Melnick said they had uncovered no abuse. And then even months later the defense attorneys told JR that they have never claimed that abuse was being done.

It wouldn't surprise me if he got blood on his underwear when he may have gone to the bathroom afterward and it is blood from one of the victims but we will see. I can see him hiding them, if it got on there.

Imo, this boy is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. Telling what he planned to do. Trying to drown his half sister. All of this is disturbing behavior unlike any 8 or 9 year olds that I have known.

I can certainly understand more why there has been some heavy wrangling going on behind the scenes. I think it started happening when all of this was turned over in discovery.

Another chilling thing is there is an eye witness that saw him playing outside with the dog shortly after the men were murdered.

imoo

[Linda7NJ]

Since LE checked the boy from top to bottom when he said he had been spanked, I don't think any evidence of abuse was found. Even four days later both Brewer and Melnick said they had uncovered no abuse. And then even months later the defense attorneys told JR that they have never claimed that abuse was being done.

It wouldn't surprise me if he got blood on his underwear when he may have gone to the bathroom afterward and it is blood from one of the victims but we will see. I can see him hiding them, if it got on there.

Imo, this boy is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. Telling what he planned to do. Trying to drown his half sister. All of this is disturbing behavior unlike any 8 or 9 year olds that I have known.

I can certainly understand more why there has been some heavy wrangling going on behind the scenes. I think it started happening when all of this was turned over in discovery.

Another chilling thing is there is an eye witness that saw him playing outside with the dog shortly after the men were murdered.

imoo

The kids twisted for sure. He needs to spend the next 9 years in a treatment facility.

[Salem]

My comments in green - http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515 Click on St. John update.

I had a feeling that once the DPS investigation was turned in and the 33 witness statements were turned over in discovery things would come out.

I always felt it possible that the boy had already told someone he was going to kill him. Kids talk. Kids also say things in anger. It is not uncommon for a 6,7,8,9 or even 10 year old to tell their parents or a friend they are fighting with "I hate you" or "I'm gonna kill you." It is necessary to put these comments in perspective.

I don't see any abuse proved to have been done by Vinnie except slapping the boy when the boy threatened to kill him. It says there was an unidentified photo on Vinnie's phone of a child with a black eye. I wonder since Vinnie kept it whether it was someone the boy played with and the boy hit them with something causing the black eye. If Vinnie had done it himself and it was this boy, I cant see him taking a picture of it and placing it on his phone to be found. I agree with this, I wouldn't think the father would carry around a picture of his son with a black eye, unless there was a story that went with the black eye.

Now I am really wondering if the poking a stick at a cat that was trapped in a culvert was really just playing.

Now I do wonder just what kind of child this boy really is. The trying to drown his half sister is frightening. Also I would think the witness would have to be someone that was around the Bloomfield family, not the Romero family. The boy is currently with his mother. I would like to hear more about this, given that his mother has never indicated there were problems and she is more than willing to take him home with her. I agree this would be frightening, but why was Ms.Bloomfield fighting for custody, if she knew the child had deliberately tried to kill his half sister?

On Tim's phone they say pornography pictures were found, there was no mention if it was kiddie porn and I do believe, if so, the reporter would have ran with that story. This bothers me greatly. How many people do you know that walk around with porn on their cell phone for heaven's sake? I think this raises some very huge red flags, if it is true.

imoo

As for playing with the dog after the shooting - I don't believe this. The timeline does not allow any time for playing with a dog. NOR does the timeline allow for any time to go to the bathroom and hide his under wear. If the boy did this, he barely had time to shoot and go to the neighbors. There was no time for anything else - not playing, not peeing and not hiding underwear.

I'm thinking if a man walks around with porn on his cell phone, he is a man to be wary of. Not the type of person I am likely to let into my home and around my children.

Just sayin'

Salem

[fran]

It's my understanding that the boy's clothes that were recovered were lying on the floor in the hallway for four or five days, that would be close to where the dad's body was found, and it could have gotten blood on it from anywhere, like from people's shoes walking around the crime scene. I mean, these were recovered after LE had served one, if not two SW's on the residence. If they overlooked them, they most likely mean nothing. In addition, as they were retreived from the trash, transference from anything else is most likely.

Wonder how Roman's wife is taking it her husband is being accused of 'sexual assault?'

Curious we've been told there's no way this child could have layed on the ground beside his father's body and cried (even for a few minutes) because there was not enough time. Yet now we're to believe that he may have changed his clothes after the murder AND played with his dog as well, before he alerted neighbors.:rolleyes:

I guess if it fits your agenda, it works for you.

I agree with you Salem, children say a lot of things out of anger and don't mean it. They also tend to exaggerate. You tell them something is expensive (ie meaning $50) and they throw out thou$and$. ;)

Well, I'm still waiting for the ballistics evidence. Oh yeah, and the fingerprint stuff.:confused:

This just shows what picking and choosing the news media can do. There were hundreds of pages of discovery released yet they pick these. Guess the rest didn't fit their agenda.

IF this child did this, he does need therapy. IF not, well...........

JMHO
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

My comments in green -

As for playing with the dog after the shooting - I don't believe this. The timeline does not allow any time for playing with a dog. NOR does the timeline allow for any time to go to the bathroom and hide his under wear. If the boy did this, he barely had time to shoot and go to the neighbors. There was no time for anything else - not playing, not peeing and not hiding underwear.

I'm thinking if a man walks around with porn on his cell phone, he is a man to be wary of. Not the type of person I am likely to let into my home and around my children.

Just sayin'

Salem


I think it does. Doesn't take any time at all to lay the gun on the cage, remove the dog and pet her on the head outside before he runs to the neighbors.

No evidence that the porn he had on his phone was kiddie porn so having girly porn would be irrelevant. It was Tim's personal phone and I am sure he didn't pass it around to the Romero family. I am sure they had no clue what was on his phone nor thought it was any of their business.

imoo

[Linda7NJ]

I think it does. Doesn't take any time at all to lay the gun on the cage, remove the dog and pet her on the head outside before he runs to the neighbors.

No evidence that the porn he had on his phone was kiddie porn so having girly porn would be irrelevant. It was Tim's personal phone and I am sure he didn't pass it around to the Romero family. I am sure they had no clue what was on his phone nor thought it was any of their business.

imoo


Tim wouldn't be the first man to take a pic while engaged in a sex act.
Nor the first to download porn. IMO it's meaningless.

A quick playful romp with his dog could take 30 seconds before heading off to tell his tale.

[fran]

Wonder if the pornography picture Tim had was of the sexual assault he's being accused of by the witness statement given to LE?:rolleyes:

Guess there's another 'motive' for Tim's murder. PERHAPS someone was taking revenge for the victim of Tim's sexual assault?:eek:

So many suspects, so little time!:confused:

This case just keeps getting deeper and deeper.:waitasec:

JMHO
fran

[Linda7NJ]

Wonder if the pornography picture Tim had was of the sexual assault he's being accused of by the witness statement given to LE?:rolleyes:

Guess there's another 'motive' for Tim's murder. PERHAPS someone was taking revenge for the victim of Tim's sexual assault?:eek:

So many suspects, so little time!:confused:

This case just keeps getting deeper and deeper.:waitasec:

JMHO
fran


IMO everything thus far points to the boy as the only suspect.

[fran]

IMO everything thus far points to the boy as the only suspect.

Oh, really?

Adultry, sexual assault, missing guns, drug addict relatives that shoot at you or your vehicle, drinking every day at the local bar, fights with unknown patrons of the local watering hole, deep rooted disputes with fellow employees.

Everything points to the boy? :confused:

We must be watching different cases.:rolleyes:

I see MANY potential suspects! ;)

fran

[Linda7NJ]

The time-line

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time

[fran]

IMHO, doesn't prove the child did the crime. Too many other possibilities to declare the child the killer. Guess it just depends on how you look at it.

I'm not saying the boy is absolutely innocent. But it has definitely not been proven he committed the crime. In my book, more points away from the child. As a matter of fact, the new revelations give more motive for someone other than the child, imo...............a lot of people could try to revenge for someone sexually assaulted. Course, then there's Misty's psycho b/f. :waitasec:

I prefer to form my opinions from facts and not 'cherry-picked' sentences out of pages and pages of discovery. I take the entire picture into consideration.

We can just agree to disagree on this case until all the evidence is in.

JMHO
fran

[oceanblueeyes]

The time-line

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time


Yes, imo, and all of these things aren't merely coincidences.

He said he was going to kill his dad and he did just like he said he was going to do.

And I think more is to come. The PILE of documents were thick. The media had just begun to go through them to make their deadline.

imoo

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~
And I think more is to come. The PILE of documents were thick. The media had just begun to go through them to make their deadline.

imoo

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem

[fran]

Word is they released 100's of pages of documents containing interviews. Somehow the news stations got them and released whatever they felt would get them the most press. Or,.......maybe that's all they got.

IMHO, this was a little tit-for-tat by the pros. He's still reeling from the misinformation the St. John's PD put out. You know, the part where the boy claimed to have kept a tally of the 1000 swats, that never materialized, that they used as their basis for a SW and justification for premeditated murder.

Course, then there's the release by the PD of the boy telling the grandmother his dad was shot in the chest. The St. Johns PD said only the killer would know that. Next thing ya know the autopsy shows, nope, he wasn't shot in the chest at all.

Now that the pros knows it can't use the alleged confession, they don't have too much incriminating evidence. Course, there's always Tim's wifes statement,............but then that's also tainted now that she's in it for the $$ IF it's the boy and she's stopped talking to LE. Gee........I even saw where she's never even talked to St.John's PD at all. Told 'em to call her lawyer. He's a civil lawyer, but guess it doesn't matter to her.

Well, now that the boy has been released on furlough to his mom, word is out the judge may think he's not the killer after all. How many double murderers do you know are let out while waiting trial?

This is a way for St. John's PD to save face, I reckon. Doesn't do much good IMHO,........they still look like a bunch of back-woods cowboys. Kinda' copy-cats too. This is the same BS that MG did during the SP trial. Always making a big "Ah-ha!" moment for the weekend talk shows. Didn't work for him either. ;)

go figure,
fran

PS......Hope St John's PD isn't spending all their time trying to figure out how to get themselves out of this mess they placed themselves in and are investigating this double murder. So far, someone is getting away with murder in that little town....fran

[Linda7NJ]

Respectfully snipped ~

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem


Yes, there were pics of them.

[oceanblueeyes]

Respectfully snipped ~

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem

Here ya go, Salem.

The video shows the stack.

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

Word is they released 100's of pages of documents containing interviews. Somehow the news stations got them and released whatever they felt would get them the most press. Or,.......maybe that's all they got.

IMHO, this was a little tit-for-tat by the pros. He's still reeling from the misinformation the St. John's PD put out. You know, the part where the boy claimed to have kept a tally of the 1000 swats, that never materialized, that they used as their basis for a SW and justification for premeditated murder.

Course, then there's the release by the PD of the boy telling the grandmother his dad was shot in the chest. The St. Johns PD said only the killer would know that. Next thing ya know the autopsy shows, nope, he wasn't shot in the chest at all.

Now that the pros knows it can't use the alleged confession, they don't have too much incriminating evidence. Course, there's always Tim's wifes statement,............but then that's also tainted now that she's in it for the $$ IF it's the boy and she's stopped talking to LE. Gee........I even saw where she's never even talked to St.John's PD at all. Told 'em to call her lawyer. He's a civil lawyer, but guess it doesn't matter to her.

Well, now that the boy has been released on furlough to his mom, word is out the judge may think he's not the killer after all. How many double murderers do you know are let out while waiting trial?

This is a way for St. John's PD to save face, I reckon. Doesn't do much good IMHO,........they still look like a bunch of back-woods cowboys. Kinda' copy-cats too. This is the same BS that MG did during the SP trial. Always making a big "Ah-ha!" moment for the weekend talk shows. Didn't work for him either. ;)

go figure,
fran

PS......Hope St John's PD isn't spending all their time trying to figure out how to get themselves out of this mess they placed themselves in and are investigating this double murder. So far, someone is getting away with murder in that little town....fran

Respectfully, Fran, that is not true. The boy was already arrested, charged and probable cause already met when they went back looking for the journal. I think the reason they didn't find it is this boy has a huge problem with lying and the 1000 spankings never happened.

These documents weren't leaked. Once the defense has been given the discovery it becomes a public record and Judge Roca in one of his motions said the media had the rights to see documents and transcripts. Roca is the only one that can seal public documents.

I beg to differ they do have a lot of incriminating evidence and it is mounting all the time.

I believe that most of the thorough investigation in this case was done by the Arizona state agency, DPR, not the SJPD. I think they have done an extensive investigation, even going to talk with those who knew the boy, when he was in the environment of his mother and half sister.


imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/20/20081120boyconfession.html



Roca said he would uphold Arizona's public-records law, but not at the expense of the child's welfare and future. He ruled that police reports may be released, but journalists will not be given film or tape-recordings of statements, only transcripts. If that order is violated, he warned, "there's a realistic chance that somebody's going to go to jail . . . I am chilling not just the speech, but I hope the blood" of media organizations.

[Openmind]

The time-line

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time

reference: http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515


If there is any validity to these comments, then there were many warning signs that were ignored, and that is all the more the pity since two men are dead and these families are in turmoil.

The idea the child was acting out and the father was slapping and spanking his child to control his behavior is disturbing. If you act with violence, an unbalanced, desperate child might feel violence is the only way to solve his problems, as well. Since it seems easy to throw dirt on the kid, I find the information about the adults equally bad. I can't see why any healthy adult would keep a picture of a child with a black eye on his cell phone. And keeping porn on your cell phone is stupid. Yeah, people do it, but it speaks volumes about the adults that do.

I have often wondered why a newly married couple with a child from a previous marriage would take in a boarder. It would seem they have enough to sort through without adding another person to the mix. No matter what you consider normal, there is enough off the mark behaviors and shady backgrounds from the adults to say this family was dysfunctional. And, yes, many children endure being slapped, spanked, verbally abused, and don't react, but this child might not have had the coping skills or felt he had any support to handle the life he was living.

[oceanblueeyes]

reference: http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515


If there is any validity to these comments, then there were many warning signs that were ignored, and that is all the more the pity since two men are dead and these families are in turmoil.

The idea the child was acting out and the father was slapping and spanking his child to control his behavior is disturbing. If you act with violence, an unbalanced, desperate child might feel violence is the only way to solve his problems, as well. Since it seems easy to throw dirt on the kid, I find the information about the adults equally bad. I can't see why any healthy adult would keep a picture of a child with a black eye on his cell phone. And keeping porn on your cell phone is stupid. Yeah, people do it, but it speaks volumes about the adults that do.

I have often wondered why a newly married couple with a child from a previous marriage would take in a boarder. It would seem they have enough to sort through without adding another person to the mix. No matter what you consider normal, there is enough off the mark behaviors and shady backgrounds from the adults to say this family was dysfunctional. And, yes, many children endure being slapped, spanked, verbally abused, and don't react, but this child might not have had the coping skills or felt he had any support to handle the life he was living.

I am not sure I agree with this. Not every parent is so worldly with psychology degrees when they have an unruly child to contend with. They, like other parents can become exasperated with the child. They grow tired and weary of the lying behavior and the violent outbursts that sometimes is chronic. Lying when lying isn't even necessary but obvious to even the most unobservant.

The threats of death, from this boy to his dad, had to make his dad want to throw up his hands. I think he had tried everything he knew how to combat this problem from rewarding him if he was the slightest bit on good behavior, to grounding him as he continued to not bring his school work home or have angry outburst. When that didn't work then he may have had the step mother spank him.

I have never slapped any of my children but I cant honestly say what I would do if they looked me in the eye in anger and told me they were going to kill me.

The report of the photo on Vincent's cell phone of a child with a black eye was an unidentified child. One would know this boy just by looking at the photo and that would have been in the police report transcript imo. We have no idea why it was on there and someone else may have sent it to him. I find it far fetched to think it was abuse of the boy and the father keep it on his phone where it could be found.

I know we took a photo of my son when he was younger when he was using a new rifle and scope. He did not hold the gun firmly and when he fired the kickback of the gun caused the scope to come back and hit him right around his eye in the perfect circle shape of the scope. It left quite a black and blue shiner and he laughs when he sees that photo now.

Guys having porn on their cell phones happens. Even other guys can send them porn.

Maybe the Romeros thought they could use the extra $200 a month to help with their finances. I don't think Tim was around much anyway. I think once he came home, showered and ate he left for the local hangout to be with the women.

imo