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Lanie
01-23-2009, 03:57 PM
[quote=Hercule Poirot;3209952]


Bold/color by me

Excellent point! To me this shows KC was in the vacinity of the A home and in a hurry/panic to dispose of the body....not much thought put into it IMO.

Here's my opinion, FWIW.
June 16. Casey kills Caylee. She puts the body in the hamper, and then in the trunk. (I always figured she either wrapped her in a towel or a blanket, but hamper it is.) IMO, she had every intention of disposing of the body late that night, but she hooked up with TonE, they rented movies, one thing led to another....
Next day, June 17th. IMO, Casey doesn't give Caylee a second thought. No dump plans, nothing, she's too busy hanging out with the current love of her life.
June 18th. Casey gets in her car, and notices an odor. Could it be? Oh, my, didn't anticipate that. At this point, in FL conditions, there has to be some major decomp going on. So, Casey heads over to her house, backs in, gets a big garbage bag, manuevers the hamper into it, takes it around to Suburban, carries the bag in as far as she feels like, and tosses it, or drops it, or whatever. Problem solved.
At this point, I feel like she made some effort to get rid of the smell still lingering in the car, maybe some baking soda or some Febreeze. I don't think she did much in the way of cleaning the trunk, though.
Lanie

Lanie
01-23-2009, 04:10 PM
why on earth would she put it from ear to ear so much so that the hair was stuck and had to be cut, why would she do that intending to pull it off and back and off again alive. but would the leak be worse from her whole body in stead of the mouth, but i have never watched a body decompose...my dad used to work for a funeral home so i guess i can ask him. but it seems to look towards it being put on after the death but there will be no docus to back that up yet so we will have to wait and see. i personally think she wanted to look like a kidnapping cause...well she said she was kidnapped.

I guess I should have made it three questions instead of 2. :)
Maybe I should start a thread?
Anyway, just rephrasing to make sure I understand your answers, and add a question for the sake of clarity.

Q. Why don't you think the duct tape was put on an alive Caylee?
A. Because the duct tape was stuck to the hair on both sides, so Casey was not intending to pull it off.

Q. Why do you think the duct tape was used to make it look like a kidnapping?
A. Because Casey said Caylee was kidnapped.

Q. Why do you think the tape was used to stop decomp fluid leakage.
A. I don't know about that.

Mugendai, if I misrepresented your answers, please correct me.
Thank you.
Lanie

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 04:14 PM
I guess I should have made it three questions instead of 2. :)
Maybe I should start a thread?
Anyway, just rephrasing to make sure I understand your answers, and add a question for the sake of clarity.

Q. Why don't you think the duct tape was put on an alive Caylee?
A. Because the duct tape was stuck to the hair on both sides, and Casey was intending to pull it off.

Q. Why do you think the duct tape was used to make it look like a kidnapping?
A. Because Casey said Caylee was kidnapped.

Q. Why do you think the tape was used to stop decomp fluid leakage.
A. I don't think that.

Mugendai, if I misrepresented your answers, please correct me.
Thank you.
Lanie

no, "wasnt" indending to take the tape off and the leakage thing, i dont know about that one...maybe.

Rumpole
01-23-2009, 04:14 PM
Bond, you explained it quite well, as usual. :woohoo:

Let me try to add a few things......

........via weather underground.........

As in Obama's best friend's crowd?

Lanie
01-23-2009, 04:20 PM
no, "wasnt" indending to take the tape off and the leakage thing, i dont know about that one...maybe.

Okay, I changed my original post. If I still don't have it right, would you mind reposting your answers again? I'm not real crazy about rephrasing other's posts. I wasn't concise enough in my original post about what I was looking for, so my bad.
Thanks,
Lanie

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 04:30 PM
Okay, I changed my original post. If I still don't have it right, would you mind reposting your answers again? I'm not real crazy about rephrasing other's posts. I wasn't concise enough in my original post about what I was looking for, so my bad.
Thanks,
Lanie

it's really not a big deal, i think we are going to be wrong in a lot of things here. we dont have clear perception in some of these things.

It's Not the Nanny
01-23-2009, 04:43 PM
I don't think I will ever ever believe that KC drugged Caylee and put her in her trunk with duct tape over her mouth on a hot summer night. It would be VERY warm and there wouldn't be any ventilation.

I think we are straying from the Keep It Simple mentality.


FWIW - I don't disagree that she might have given Caylee something (like benedryl) for naps at Lee's and, to better help out your theory, Bond, TonE did say that KC would always go outside to talk on the phone so maybe she used that to go down and check and re-chloroform Caylee??


That said, why in the world would she take the chance of opening a trunk with a sedated/duct taped toddler in an apartment complex parking lot?? There are often lots of people coming and going at all hours of the day and night. Too risky.

The chloroform bothers me, too. How in the world would she be careful enough not to make herself pass out when opening the trunk again to check on her....no good to be passed out next to your car with the trunk lid open exposing the child duct taped inside.

I do, however, strongly believe that KC was "self-medicating" the moment she was with TonE and it made that night and the next few days much more tolerable. It was in the sobering moments in the afternoons when TonE was at school and she had to drive back to G&C's and see her childhood home, reminders of Caylee everywhere, to rebag a dead child that was probably the most difficult.

Zingo
01-23-2009, 04:45 PM
This case is so bizarre, I can't even come up with a plausible theory...

It seems that Caylee likely died on the 15th or 16th ... But I can't really come up with a death timeline or theory, without knowing the following:

1. Did KC and Caylee spend the night of the 15th at the parents' house?
2. Did George really see them on the afternoon of the 16th before work?
3. What happened the morning of the 16th? Where was Caylee then?
4. Did GA and CA think KC was moving out on the 16th?
5. Where did they think KC was moving to with Caylee?
6. Did KC leave any messages for GA/CA during flurry of phone calls the 16th?
7. Was there chlorine found in the trunk indicating Caylee maybe drowned and was placed in the trunk?
8. Was there dirt left behind on the neighbor's shovel that can trace back to the remains site? Any evidence of decomp on the shovel? (The shovel throws me off because there is no indication Caylee was actually buried in the woods, just dumped.)
9. Was there any evidence of homemade chloroform in KC/Caylee's room?
10. What evidence about the cause of death could be learned from Caylee's hair? (drugged? poison?)
11. What evidence did the duct tape reveal about whether Caylee was still alive when it was placed over her mouth and was the duct tape a likely cause of death (suffocation?)
12. Was there any dirt on the hamper/trash bag that could trace back to the A's yard? (Maybe KC initially tried to bury her in the backyard, and thought that was too hard, so she opted to dump her in the woods)

Non-timeline related, but still want to know ...

13. Where did KC go everyday with Caylee?
14. If Cindy believes KC was lounging around all the time on the couch, why did she also still believe apparently that KC was employed?
15. Where did George work?
16. How did KC know about ZFG at Sawgrass?


If anyone knows the answers, let me know ...

Lanie
01-23-2009, 05:00 PM
it's really not a big deal, i think we are going to be wrong in a lot of things here. we dont have clear perception in some of these things.

I pulled up an earlier thread about the duct tape, did a whole q/a thing on it, and the server kicked me, so I lost my post.
I'm trying to figure out some stuff. Some of us think the duct tape was put on Caylee before she died, like me. Some of us think it was after she died, like you. What I care about is different thought processes than my own, understanding, so maybe I can look at the stuff I am trying to figure out in a different way, not who is right and who is wrong. This isn't something I want to debate and pull people over to my way of thinking, I basically just want to sit quietly and hear what other people's thoughts are that differ from my own.
Lanie

shadow of my mind
01-23-2009, 05:02 PM
As in Obama's best friend's crowd?

LOL Good One. I just wish more people in this country knew that.

But just incase that is an actual question weather underground is a weather site that you can type in any city or zip code and get a very detailed report of current weather plus weather history. It is pretty much worldwide. Great resource.
http://www.wunderground.com/

Rumpole
01-23-2009, 05:10 PM
I pulled up an earlier thread about the duct tape, did a whole q/a thing on it, and the server kicked me, so I lost my post.
I'm trying to figure out some stuff. Some of us think the duct tape was put on Caylee before she died, like me. Some of us think it was after she died, like you. What I care about is different thought processes than my own, understanding, so maybe I can look at the stuff I am trying to figure out in a different way, not who is right and who is wrong. This isn't something I want to debate and pull people over to my way of thinking, I basically just want to sit quietly and hear what other people's thoughts are that differ from my own.
Lanie
I think putting duct tape across the mouth of a live child is a horrific thing to imagine. The terror in the child's eyes, likely struggling etc. That scenario in itself requires KC to be evil and sadistic. Not out of the question of course. I also think you would have to tape/tie hands to stop panic stricken attempts to remove, even if that was not possible as some surmise. Even with this hopless creature KC involved I just can not accept taping a live child. Perhaps an unconscious child, but that would invite the same problems when the child revived. I am left to favour the theory that the tape was applied after death and I am guessing the reason was to contain fluid, a lolling tongue, baby teeth falling out etc.

Lanie
01-23-2009, 05:24 PM
I think putting duct tape across the mouth of a live child is a horrific thing to imagine. The terror in the child's eyes, likely struggling etc. That scenario in itself requires KC to be evil and sadistic. Not out of the question of course. I also think you would have to tape/tie hands to stop panic stricken attempts to remove, even if that was not possible as some surmise. Even with this hopless creature KC involved I just can not accept taping a live child. Perhaps an unconscious child, but that would invite the same problems when the child revived. I am left to favour the theory that the tape was applied after death and I am guessing the reason was to contain fluid, a lolling tongue, baby teeth falling out etc.

Thank you.
Lanie

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 05:38 PM
I pulled up an earlier thread about the duct tape, did a whole q/a thing on it, and the server kicked me, so I lost my post.
I'm trying to figure out some stuff. Some of us think the duct tape was put on Caylee before she died, like me. Some of us think it was after she died, like you. What I care about is different thought processes than my own, understanding, so maybe I can look at the stuff I am trying to figure out in a different way, not who is right and who is wrong. This isn't something I want to debate and pull people over to my way of thinking, I basically just want to sit quietly and hear what other people's thoughts are that differ from my own.
Lanie

gotcha! so yeah, i am sure i can come up with at least two reason why to put tape on a live caylee but the taking the tape off part bugs me for reasons that have been stated but again i would and could not put anything past kc. poor little caylee either way.

shadow of my mind
01-23-2009, 06:14 PM
I think the duct tape could actually cover a few different ideas.

If this was premeditated in any way, the heart sticker may have been placed on the piece of tape to make it seam like some sort of game to Caylee, keeping her from panicking. There would be no concern about the tape sticking to the hair and not being able to come off. If Casey had given Caylee some type of prescription drug to make her sleepy, applied the tape to her head and then applied chloroform once her mouth was covered, to knock her out long enough so an overdose of prescription meds would take effect, that would insure that Caylee would not be able to make any noise that would be loud enough to be heard and great distance from the trunk of the car or any other place she was keeping her. If she had any pre thought at all that she was going to attempt to blame a third party, such as a kidnapping then the placing duct tape on Caylee’s mouth would just lend to that later.

It also works with the idea that Casey herself, being angry that no one would take Caylee for the night and possibly high on some type of drug she really did not give much thought about Caylee’s hair being stuck with duct tape. It was a quick easy answer to a problem at hand. The child was in her way, she needed to put her someplace and to keep her quit at the same time. There was no thought of concern for Caylee at all, just concern that no one was going to interrupt Casey’s plans for the night with Tony.

If the tape was done post-mortem then it could have been to enhance the kidnapping story. The heart sticker was chosen as some type of mark or calling card, similar to what other serial killers have done. Maybe Casey thought that doing something like this would cause investigators in go in a direction away from her if/when the body was found.

It would also provide a limited way to keep body fluids contained.

The heart sticker, to me could mean many things. Since we are not privy to all of the evidence that LE has making any guess on that at this point would most likely be wrong.

MOO

kcaddict
01-23-2009, 07:48 PM
I think the duct tape could actually cover a few different ideas.

If this was premeditated in any way, the heart sticker may have been placed on the piece of tape to make it seam like some sort of game to Caylee, keeping her from panicking. There would be no concern about the tape sticking to the hair and not being able to come off. If Casey had given Caylee some type of prescription drug to make her sleepy, applied the tape to her head and then applied chloroform once her mouth was covered, to knock her out long enough so an overdose of prescription meds would take effect, that would insure that Caylee would not be able to make any noise that would be loud enough to be heard and great distance from the trunk of the car or any other place she was keeping her. If she had any pre thought at all that she was going to attempt to blame a third party, such as a kidnapping then the placing duct tape on Caylee’s mouth would just lend to that later.

It also works with the idea that Casey herself, being angry that no one would take Caylee for the night and possibly high on some type of drug she really did not give much thought about Caylee’s hair being stuck with duct tape. It was a quick easy answer to a problem at hand. The child was in her way, she needed to put her someplace and to keep her quit at the same time. There was no thought of concern for Caylee at all, just concern that no one was going to interrupt Casey’s plans for the night with Tony.

If the tape was done post-mortem then it could have been to enhance the kidnapping story. The heart sticker was chosen as some type of mark or calling card, similar to what other serial killers have done. Maybe Casey thought that doing something like this would cause investigators in go in a direction away from her if/when the body was found.

It would also provide a limited way to keep body fluids contained.

The heart sticker, to me could mean many things. Since we are not privy to all of the evidence that LE has making any guess on that at this point would most likely be wrong.

MOO

bold by me

Totally agree...the sticker was a "game".:mad:

debs
01-23-2009, 08:08 PM
bold by me

Totally agree...the sticker was a "game".:mad:

The sticker wasn't a game. I want to know if there were two more.

Whisperer
01-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Does anyone know if Lee A's (former) house ever had a search warrant issued on it?

Good question! I have never seen cameras or anyone pursue Lee at his home. I find that strange, especially because of the close proximity of Lee's house. It would be possible that kc at some time made visits to Lee, but subject has not come up to my knowledge....strange

I used the poll and voting smothering....most likely the night of the 15th. She may have used tape to prevent sounds.

suepitzl
01-23-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm sure you have more questions than I have answers...:)
...and I have plenty more questions myself.

RE: "2.6 days".

Lemme take a hack at it and I'll ask JWG to fix where I may stray...my apologies if it goes a bit OT, but, relevant to understanding how the forensics are used to support any theory.

I owe JWG and Bev a big TY for helping me understand the accumulated-degree-days (ADD) information that most know of as "2.6 days". This # is arrived at as a total of the elapsed temperature-time conditions following death. After the 2.6 figure was released JWG noted that the temperatures that were used as inputs may have been off a bit when compared to more detailed Orlando temperatures that were otherwise available.

So, JWG created a spreadsheet populated w/ 5-minute interval Orlando temperatures for the entire period of interest. After bouncin' it around a bit, we found some research on the web that had been done comparing the interior temperature of a car trunk vs. ambient temperatures vs. time of day, and incorporated (a) simulated trunk temps for each 5-minute interval, and (b) the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk to simulate the potential that it wasn't @ elevated temperatures if it had been moved...say...to the playhouse for example...for a period of time.

The end result of the above is IMHO, a more accurate assessment of the ADD data the body experienced than that which was provided to reach the 2.6 # in the released report. The actual target is 90 ADD. And using the compensated temperatures for the given time of death of 6/16 7:20PM we reach 90 ADD @ exactly 6/19 7:36PM (or 3.01 days)...and I gave a +/-1% range..so....7:01PM-8:19PM is the mathematical result. We don't know the exact time of medical death either...immediate...or slower organ failure that ultimate resulted in cardiac arrest...effect of heat/dehydration, etc. So, consider it a range. If you're interested, JWG can prolly tell you how many temperature input points were used to arrive @ the 2.6 days used in the released report. The spreadsheet we're using has 869 temperature input points.

Note that the time of day of death has an impact too, owing to a late PM death accumulating a cooler nighttime cycle of temperatures in the same amount of time as compared to a hotter daytime cycle.

Hope that helps.

RE: Pings.

The following is a 3.3 hour gap for which we have no data for Casey's whereabout via pings.


6/19/08 THU 5:45:39 PM
6/19/08 THU 9:02:02 PM

This timeframe (a) encompasses the time given by Chris S. for Casey's visit with him, and (b) ends @ 9:02 with the receipt of a numbered text. This suggests to me Casey powered off her phone and received a system message when she powered it back up. The 5:45PM ping is in the Waterford Ale House/Fusian area, and the 9:02PM ping is near Tony's apt.
i thought that the 2.6 came from the maggots/pupa etc stuff

shadow of my mind
01-23-2009, 09:17 PM
i thought that the 2.6 came from the maggots/pupa etc stuff

I have read all of the reports and I have not seen anything that relates to what the maggots/pupa have told them. Just that they were collected as evidence.
The 2.6 days is from the air test that was done in the trunk in the doc dump in Novemeber.

shadow of my mind
01-23-2009, 09:28 PM
The sticker wasn't a game. I want to know if there were two more.

Would you care to share your thoughts that make you feel the sticker wasn't a game. My gut instincts tell me it was not also but... with that being said I would like to know if you have some thoughts or have seen something in the information that is available that leads you to this belief.
Respectfully,
Shadow

JWG
01-23-2009, 11:04 PM
This is a carefully thought theory and requires a carefully thought response. I am not going to do it all at once, but will instead go through it section by section and ponder each on its own. I don't know yet if I agree or disagree - but I have told you that overall it is pretty disturbing. Doesn't mean it is not true...just disturbing.


In grabbing some handwriting samples from Casey’s handwritten statement to compare to the ZG signature on the traffic appearance I notice a couple of things. First, Casey scratched out a couple of words regarding the time she dropped Caylee w/ ZG on Monday, 6/9. Second, Casey wrote her last contact w/ ZG was on Thursday, 6/12. Both of these intrigued me…why hadn’t I probed them before?

In KC's statement she says "Thursday, June 12". Was she looking at a calendar? I cannot remember which day of the week a date falls on looking back a month without thinking real hard about it, and doing some math. Her handwritten statement does not seem to miss a beat. I find this real odd. IMO, "Thursday" is a significant day for KC. Could be the 12th...or the 19th.

Here is a weird thought. I've thought of the 20th or 24th as the two possible dates that the body was dumped, but the 19th (Thursday) is the date, IMHO, that the stain was left in the trunk. I've thought that was the day the duct tape was placed on the mouth (to stop decomp). The 20th would be the date the laundry bag would go into the trash bag and...when the heart is left on the duct tape. Could the day she last "heard" from ZG be the day she taped the mouth? :frown:


Casey scratched out the words “at one” as in o’clock, in favor of writing between 9AM and 1PM, IIRC. Now we have George’s much debated statement ‘bout Casey & Caylee leaving @ 12:50PM just like any other day. We also have cell pings for both 6/9 and 6/15, and we have computer forensics for 6/16.I love Photoshop. After deleting the scribble - which was very simple (thank you KC) - I see she made two edits. At first she wrote the word "at". She stopped, and modified that to the word "around". Then she scribbled that out and wrote "between 9AM and 1PM".

It's Not the Nanny
01-23-2009, 11:11 PM
This is a carefully thought theory and requires a carefully thought response. I am not going to do it all at once, but will instead go through it section by section and ponder each on its own. I don't know yet if I agree or disagree - but I have told you that overall it is pretty disturbing. Doesn't mean it is not true...just disturbing.



In KC's statement she says "Thursday, June 12". Was she looking at a calendar? I cannot remember which day of the week a date falls on looking back a month without thinking real hard about it, and doing some math. Her handwritten statement does not seem to miss a beat. I find this real odd. IMO, "Thursday" is a significant day for KC. Could be the 12th...or the 19th.

Here is a weird thought. I've thought of the 20th or 24th as the two possible dates that the body was dumped, but the 19th (Thursday) is the date, IMHO, that the stain was left in the trunk. I've thought that was the day the duct tape was placed on the mouth (to stop decomp). The 20th would be the date the laundry bag would go into the trash bag and...when the heart is left on the duct tape. Could the day she last "heard" from ZG be the day she taped the mouth? :frown:

I love Photoshop. After deleting the scribble - which was very simple (thank you KC) - I see she made two edits. At first she wrote the word "at". She stopped, and modified that to the word "around". Then she scribbled that out and wrote "between 9AM and 1PM".


That's interesting. What would make KC change the drop off time from 1 pm (that would link up perfectly to George's last time "seeing" them at 12:50) to between 9 and 1pm? That's a pretty wide window of time.

tfrohning
01-23-2009, 11:28 PM
I voted smothered. I think that after the fight with her mother that Cayle wouldn't stop crying. After seeing video with Casey getting mad. I can see her puting something over Caylee mouth. the cholform was never a theory of mine. I thik it came from cleaning products when she try to clean the trunk. JMO

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm sure you have more questions than I have answers...:)
...and I have plenty more questions myself.

RE: "2.6 days". .......snip

Thanks.
That helps a lot. I still need some more before I'll roll over?

I'm not trying to sway opinions, I'm just offering theories that may be of interest to others considering their own. I continue to review the information that becomes available and develop explanations that could be consistent with it. I especially look for information that can be triangulated (e.g. ADD, pings, and testimony, that can all support a conclusion) and use this information as the foundation to work upon. I'm carefully reflecting on all of the information I can get my hands on to arrive @ the conclusions I'm posting. I'm certain that there are plenty of 'holes'...esp. since I don't have all the information...however, I try not to draw wild, unsubstantiated conclusions.


I have no trouble accepting the math and ADD data etc. Happy to incorporate and go along with likely removal from KC trunk at 7-8 pm 19th, certainly that evening with an even wider time range based on TOD.
If I have got it straight, at that time KC removed the body, and/or bagged it in plastic? and transfered it to Jeep.

Correct...

T.O.D. is supported by the m.o. of the 3 flurries (1) 6/9, (2) 6/16 & (3) 6/16 meaning that Caylee was likely still alive at least until Casey's last attempt to reach someone to take her, which was Amy @ 7:20PM, and the 6/16 flurries framed around trips Casey made to Tony's & Blockbuster w/o Caylee being seen.

The bagging & disposal & use of the Jeep agrees w/ the ADD of the Pontiac, Casey's window of opportunity per cell pings, and the witness of what she was driving @ the time.


1. She would be doing that in public parked near Tony's

Not necessarily. Chris S. stated Casey claimed her Pontiac had broken down as the reason she was driving the Jeep, Thursday, 6/19. Recall that this was the afternoon Casey & Tony had visited Crane's Landing apt. and that Amy & Will headed to Tony's apt to see Amy's totalled car only to find that Casey left. Her pings place her @ JBPark. Without diving off into that too far, it is possible Casey claimed her car ran outta gas ...and enlisted Amy's help the next day, Friday 6/20 to recover it - since she wouldn't want Tony to know she'd swiped his Jeep Thursday night - that might explain the text send 6/27, "Two weeks in a row.. on Friday.. my stupid car runs out of gas. Wow". This ploy would ensure Casey leaves the Pontiac in a desirable location for a transfer...goes to Crane's Landing in Tony's Jeep, and perhaps consequently gains use of it while Tony goes back to Full Sail that PM. I'll explore this further on the 6/19 ping thread.


2. What made her think/realise she needed to bag in plastic. She had not seen the decomp problem yet.

Perhaps the odor. Perhaps 6/18 she carried the hamper-bagged-only body to the backyard in an aborted burial attempt. It is known that distrubing a corpse will rupture tissue and release fluids more readily than a corpse that is left undisturbed. The fluids from 6/18 may have become rapidly increasing decomp odor by 6/19...and the plastic bag was needed for odor as much as to prevent further release of fluids...esp. if she was going to use Tony's Jeep.


3. She more likely to use garbage bag she already had in trunk, or one from AL, so perhaps less relevance to matching bag with A's house.
I tend to agree.

4. Why did she do all this? If she had decided to dump the body why not just jump in her car and drive to dump site.
I don't have a good answer. Perhaps she'd decided on the location and didn't want to risk G&C spotting her in the area in her white Pontiac. Perhaps she wanted the insurance of 4WD to guard against getting stuck in the mud since she knew she'd want to get off on the shoulder on Suburban and she knew it might be muddy, and a black vehicle after sundown at that.


5. Why chose that dump site? No immediate panic and no need to go so close to A's
The proverbial 'million dollar question'. Psychologists offer suggestions...I just dunno.

6. Why did she return to A's area the next day and run out of gas. Was she intending to move the body in broad daylight?
Returned to A's to clean/vacuum the trunk. May not have run outta gas this day (see above re: 6/19 possibly...other options too that I don't wanta stray into here re: 6/20 outta gas)

7. To be advised, I'm still thinkin'
Per above following "roll over"...I do appreciate your thorough & thoughtful questions. It helps me think through aspects better...

JWG
01-23-2009, 11:42 PM
When we look at an individual day, there aren’t enough cell ping data points to make a statistical conclusion ‘bout Casey bein’ @ G&C’s or Lee’s, but, when I looked closer @ 6/8-6/9 and 6/15-6/16 I noted that there are periods of a sometimes more than a dozen pings in a row that strike the northern tower nearer Lee’s home. Typically, the pings bounce back and forth between 2 towers – one more southern and the other more northern. For these periods when a long stretch of pings strike the northern tower, I believe Casey was taking refuge @ Lee’s. I can’t detail them here, but, suffice it to say Casey appeared to goto Lee’s 6/8PM moreso than 6/15PM…and did, indeed, appear to spend the night @ G&C’s on 6/15, which agrees with Cindy’s account.

I think the (near) absence of tower 12 (SW of Anthony's) pings after the 15th is quite telling as well. There is heavy and increasing traffic to that tower relative to the other two towers up to the 15th. Then, almost nothing relative to the other towers. Sure does support a local relocation.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 12:01 AM
BOND
Thanks again.
More to think about.

The "roll over" comment was humour? I do understand this process of developing theories that stand the test of serious critisism, and can encompass other data. I appreciate the thought and effort that you and others put into this stuff.

My wife describes me as hypercritical. I see it as a feature, rather than a bug.

JWG
01-24-2009, 12:23 AM
JUNE 16:

Again, Casey went to Lee’s, only slightly earlier than 6/9. From 11:47AM until 3:04PM the duration of calls suggests Caylee was napping. 18 of 22 (not counting vmails that don’t have location associated) calls between 11:47AM and 4:14PM…which includes the “flurry” calls. Are carried by Tower 22. This suggests Casey placed the first 6/16 flurry of calls from Lee’s and that the pool wasn’t involved in any ‘accident’.

We also have computer forensics info for 6/16 to use with the cell ping data, and it supports that Casey left G&C’s 12-2PM on Monday, 6/16, yet, she returned between 2-3PM when G&C’s computer is active again. Casey returned to G&C’s while Caylee napped @ Lee’s. Specifically, using the cell data, Casey went to G&C’s for ~30mins 6/16 between 2:20-2:52PM. Casey may have dosed Caylee @ Lee’s to ensure she remained ‘asleep’.

IMHO, the above suggests the timing of George’s account better describes 6/9 vs. 6/15.

Some thoughts...

Texts with AH in late May indicate KC had been sick, and Caylee too, probably with colds. Originally, I thought this is where the "little snothead" comment to Rusciano had come from - Caylee was a mucous machine. But, the comment to Rusciano was early May and the texts regarding KC and Caylee health were late May. So probably no connection.

However, I am wondering if KC discovered the power of Robitussin or Nyquil or something else during this period. :waitasec:

Fast forward to the 16th. KC leaves her parent's and goes up to Lee's, where she gives Caylee some medicine. Caylee is used to this routine by now...been happening since the end of May. KC straps a sleeping Caylee in her car seat and heads back to the parent's.

KC had several bags with her and carries a few in, leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car. Then comes that 30 minute call with Amy. Good times reminisced...check out photos on Facebook...IM friends about the wild night.

Call ends with Amy...KC continues to surf and browse...Jesse calls and they talk about KC issues for 13 minutes. Then a call comes in from George interrupting the KC-centric world. Sometime during this brief conversation he mentions Caylee. After the call KC goes out to check on her daughter...who has now been in the car asleep an hour.

Still looks like she is asleep. Head plopped over to one side. Yep, asleep.

KC goes back in and packs for her and Caylee. Grabs a toy or two...Winnie the Pooh blanket...etc. Calls AL to confirm plans. Then a flurry of calls to GA and CA looking for babysitting coverage.

No dice. Will have to drive up there with the "little snot head" and make excuses for going home early.

Arrives at AL's near 4:30. Goes back to get Caylee and something does not seem right. She is unresponsive. Cold to the touch. Lifeless eyes. KC figures out she has a BIG problem. Looks around and sees no one is around. Pops the trunk and quickly puts Caylee inside with the clothes and blanket she had gathered earlier. "Mama" remains in the car.

June 17 - travel back to parent's to evaluate situation. Caylee clearly dead. KC finds a laundry bag and places Caylee inside. Maybe puts Pooh blankie in there as well...for comfort.

June 18 - tries to bury body in back yard with BB's shovel. No luck. Returns body to trunk.

After that...still contemplating...

CentralFLMama
01-24-2009, 12:56 AM
I am intrigued by these recent theories about napping in the car and passing that way. I could see this happening, leaving her to nap in the car and redness of the face (from heat is more likely IMO) causing a panic and a dunk into the pool before realising the awful truth.

but again and again and again Casey ruins all the theories with not calling 911 and her cold horrible behaviour afterwards. I go with the flow mentally in accident scenarios til that first phone call from jail pops into my head.

you know, if she had changed her behaviour in any way that friends or family noticed, even one crying spell one time, I would keep thinking this had to be an accident. yes there were the nightmares, late in june, and the fact that they were late in june makes me think they were about the decomposition and not grief.

The facts that I know as of this date over and over point to a deliberate death no matter how much I still naively wish it to have been an accident.



You got it. Well said.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 01:07 AM
Some thoughts...

Texts with AH in late May indicate KC had been sick, and Caylee too, probably with colds. Originally, I thought this is where the "little snothead" comment to Rusciano had come from - Caylee was a mucous machine. But, the comment to Rusciano was early May and the texts regarding KC and Caylee health were late May. So probably no connection.

However, I am wondering if KC discovered the power of Robitussin or Nyquil or something else during this period. :waitasec:

Fast forward to the 16th. KC leaves her parent's and goes up to Lee's, where she gives Caylee some medicine. Caylee is used to this routine by now...been happening since the end of May. KC straps a sleeping Caylee in her car seat and heads back to the parent's.

KC had several bags with her and carries a few in, leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car. Then comes that 30 minute call with Amy. Good times reminisced...check out photos on Facebook...IM friends about the wild night.

Call ends with Amy...KC continues to surf and browse...Jesse calls and they talk about KC issues for 13 minutes. Then a call comes in from George interrupting the KC-centric world. Sometime during this brief conversation he mentions Caylee. After the call KC goes out to check on her daughter...who has now been in the car asleep an hour.

Still looks like she is asleep. Head plopped over to one side. Yep, asleep.

KC goes back in and packs for her and Caylee. Grabs a toy or two...Winnie the Pooh blanket...etc. Calls AL to confirm plans. Then a flurry of calls to GA and CA looking for babysitting coverage.

No dice. Will have to drive up there with the "little snot head" and make excuses for going home early.

Arrives at AL's near 4:30. Goes back to get Caylee and something does not seem right. She is unresponsive. Cold to the touch. Lifeless eyes. KC figures out she has a BIG problem. Looks around and sees no one is around. Pops the trunk and quickly puts Caylee inside with the clothes and blanket she had gathered earlier. "Mama" remains in the car.

June 17 - travel back to parent's to evaluate situation. Caylee clearly dead. KC finds a laundry bag and places Caylee inside. Maybe puts Pooh blankie in there as well...for comfort.

June 18 - tries to bury body in back yard with BB's shovel. No luck. Returns body to trunk.

After that...still contemplating...
TOD here 6 hours or so earlier than Bond.
Trying to retain as much as possible of what Bond put up. Body transfer/bagging would have to be early afternoon in public? Caylee in the jeep when she went to visit Chris? In which case she could have dumped prior to visit? But again in broad daylight?
I still have problems with the smell factor in the jeep. I know LE only tested stains for blood and were satisfied, but surely with decomp an issue they would have had a good sniff?

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 01:27 AM
TOD here 6 hours or so earlier than Bond.
Trying to retain as much as possible of what Bond put up. Body transfer/bagging would have to be early afternoon in public? Caylee in the jeep when she went to visit Chris? In which case she could have dumped prior to visit? But again in broad daylight?
I still have problems with the smell factor in the jeep. I know LE only tested stains for blood and were satisfied, but surely with decomp an issue they would have had a good sniff?

I spent the last couple of hours trying to work out 6/19 pings to enable a xfer to the Jeep to stop the ADD clock started @ 7:20PM on 6/16. I couldn't make it work. Sooo...if t.o.d. was >7:20PM...perhaps the Jeep wasn't used in the disposal....

What did work was backing t.o.d. to 3PM 6/16...which is fitting w/ the expired in carseat-but-didn't-discover-until-later timing....then transfering & storing the body temporarily @ the unoccuppied Oviedo property stopping the ADD clock 3-4PM 6/19...then returning to the Oviedo property in the Jeep ~7-8PM and taking it to the disposal site on Suburban Dr.

The latter doesn't explain elevated chloroform in the trunk...and the 6:30PM flurry...and 7PM call to G&C's....unless these were for "We won't be home tonight".

I just haven't come up w/ a thread that pulls through all of the information cleanly.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 01:52 AM
Bond

I have accepted the ADD clock details. 3.01 days decomposing looks to be a good number. I can't see the bagging being done anywhere other than the A's back yard and 18th too early if the 3.01 days is correct? I am stuck. Even contemplating body bagging 20th before running out of gas does not work.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 02:08 AM
I spent the last couple of hours trying to work out 6/19 pings to enable a xfer to the Jeep to stop the ADD clock started @ 7:20PM on 6/16. I couldn't make it work. Sooo...if t.o.d. was >7:20PM...perhaps the Jeep wasn't used in the disposal....

What did work was backing t.o.d. to 3PM 6/16...which is fitting w/ the expired in carseat-but-didn't-discover-until-later timing....then transfering & storing the body temporarily @ the unoccuppied Oviedo property stopping the ADD clock 3-4PM 6/19...then returning to the Oviedo property in the Jeep ~7-8PM and taking it to the disposal site on Suburban Dr.

The latter doesn't explain elevated chloroform in the trunk...and the 6:30PM flurry...and 7PM call to G&C's....unless these were for "We won't be home tonight".

I just haven't come up w/ a thread that pulls through all of the information cleanly.
If the body was transfered stopping the clock, then Caylee had to be driving her car at that time. I don't have some (lots) details at my finger tips. When (what time) did she leave her own car near AL's and start driving his jeep? I don't like including this vacant property business. Again she had to be transfering dead bodies and messing about with garbage bags in day light, and hiding body where it could be discovered, by humans or stray dogs or anything?
I don't like trying to include transfer of the body beyond back and forth to the A's back yard and the final dump. That I can imagine being done in daylight, albeit somewhat paniced. (If that is possible with KC)

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 02:39 AM
Making it up as I type, how about.................
Accept Bond's outline up to the proposed TOD. But Caylee does not die then. She survives all that abuse and is left yet again, drugged again? Eventually dies morning of 17th. KC to and from A's 17th, 18th as per other scenarios gets as far as body etc in laundry bag. Perhaps in garbage bag as well, but not sealed. 19th messing about in AL jeep leaving body in the trunk of her car near AL's. Friday morning seals plastic bag (stops ADD clock) and heads off to A's, then dumps body but runs out of gas soon after!! Calls AL to rescue, steals gas cans etc? OR Runs out of gas before dumping body, so does not get as far as dumping body. Dumps body on 24th.

shadow of my mind
01-24-2009, 03:04 AM
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 03:10 AM
If the body was transfered stopping the clock, then Caylee had to be driving her car at that time. I don't have some (lots) details at my finger tips. When (what time) did she leave her own car near AL's and start driving his jeep? I don't like including this vacant property business. Again she had to be transfering dead bodies and messing about with garbage bags in day light, and hiding body where it could be discovered, by humans or stray dogs or anything?
I don't like trying to include transfer of the body beyond back and forth to the A's back yard and the final dump. That I can imagine being done in daylight, albeit somewhat paniced. (If that is possible with KC)

I kinda understated it above, but, yes....if she went back to get her Pontiac after smoozin' w/ Chris while drivin' Tony's Jeep...then...takes Pontiac to Suburban Dr. w/ phone still off and executes the disposal (having bagged somewhere in-situ ~7:30PM)...that all works w/ >7:20PM t.o.d., ADD=3.01, disposal just prior to 9PM, 6/19.

That's the only scenario that plays all the way through for me, including as many factors as I can (e.g. flurry calls, chloroform, etc.). I do like JWG's extrapolation of the use of cold medicine post-May.

I don't recall which poster commented 'bout surviving in the trunk...but, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting Caylee was put in the trunk any other time than 6/16PM. I am suggesting Casey kept Caylee @ Lee's. IMHO, Lee's not being forthcoming w/ this info maybe the basis for the potential charges being considered against him (i.e. witholding info, etc.). And, as JWG and I discussed earlier on this point, Lee may not necessarily have been aware of every instance when Casey did this...such as when he may have been out of town. We don't know details 'bout Lee's roommate either...but that would hafta factor in too.

And, as another poster pointed out....and I paraphrased...the temperature in the trunk would certainly have aggravated the situation and sped death due to o.d. or coulda been the cause of death...I'm not sure we'll ver know that detail.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 03:15 AM
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow
Makes sense.
I haven't worked through the fine details. I am not sure I would do a good job. I am just trying to devise a broad outline or review others outlines. I have seen enough to know JWG and Bond have studied the details, and I would use their data to evaluate anything I put forward. At the moment I don't have a scenario that I am happy with even broadly. I am striving to take bits from whatever source and piece together a hybrid.

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 03:18 AM
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow

..that's actually a pretty good description of what I've done, Shadow. I'm all good w/ tossin' it around. I hadn't gone through the gymnasitics of Jeep use 'cause I wasn't in the mindset last night after plugging everything else together :)

Personally, I'm kinda reaching the point of diminishing returns w/o any new information that helps the timeline and firms up some of the sketchy info we have on some of the key points (e.g. chloroform...substantiated...or freak coincidences). I just dunno how to nail it down better...I've allowed myself some lattitude w/ options that we've all been discussing. I guess I'll wait for mo'betta info and watch for some new theories to play out.

Appreciate the review/comments/feedback everyone! :blowkiss:

miabellamoure
01-24-2009, 03:18 AM
i had this thought last night, that clairfies things for me...the accident theory keeps on popping up in my head, but not anymore...the reason is the duct tape...if you put duct tape on someone with the INTENT of eventually taking it off, you would not get the hair caught on the tape! you know eventually (in this case when caylee wakes up) you will have to take the tape off, so you would be careful not to put it on her hair knowing it would hurt when you tried to pull it off....
when caylee's skull was found, the hair had to be cut so the duct tape could be removed, which tells me she had no intention of taking that tape off
this was no accident, and the tape was used as part of a murder weapon!

I disagree...respectfully...although, I do agree that KC placed the tape there without the intention of removal but, for other reasons.

I believe that KC placed the tape there "post-mortem" in a poor attempt to stop the spillage of body fluids, odor, maggots, flies, etc.

The sticker, could have been placed there at the time of disposal as a symbol of her macabre sense of love for Caylee.

miabellamoure
01-24-2009, 03:25 AM
Also, with the latest tidbits from GA's "8-page" suicide letter...I'd venture to guess based on his comments about "KC's friends"...that my hunches could be correct that KC did not act alone in either the death or disposal of Caylee.

Don't get me wrong...I definitely believe KC is quite capable of committing such a heinous crime but, something has always felt like she did not act alone in one or all of the acts of this crime.

miabellamoure
01-24-2009, 03:37 AM
Even tho' my beliefs contradict this idea...it is also possible that a duct-taped Cayleee could have awoken in an stifling hot car trunk...began crying, worked herself into a hysteria, vomited and then died from aspirating her own vomit into her lungs.

It would be interesting to know if this type of bodily fluids could have been detected from the duct tape aside from the decomposing fluids that would also have been on that tape.

natsound
01-24-2009, 12:09 PM
Even tho' my beliefs contradict this idea...it is also possible that a duct-taped Cayleee could have awoken in an stifling hot car trunk...began crying, worked herself into a hysteria, vomited and then died from aspirating her own vomit into her lungs.

It would be interesting to know if this type of bodily fluids could have been detected from the duct tape aside from the decomposing fluids that would also have been on that tape.

It's possible... but I bet we would have heard about vomit stains in the trunk by now. If any trace of such had been washed out of the trunk, there would be traces in her hair. Maybe even on the teeth found.

JWG
01-24-2009, 12:11 PM
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.

The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.

Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.

The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.

The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.

natsound
01-24-2009, 12:15 PM
The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.



How can we be sure CA gave them the correct knife anyway? How would LE know? Is it stated in a doc dump that CA took it from the car and washed it, or is that in an interview somewhere? I know it's common knowledge, but I'm just wondering where that info. came from. I can't go back and look right now, but wasn't the knife listed as "items removed from the car", as in LE removed it from the car?

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

*snipped*

Frustrating, isn't it...:banghead:

I pounded out about an hours worth of investigation into 6/19 last night trying to figure out how she might've pulled another 'outta-gas' or 'broken down' so there would be no chance of having to take the Pontiac to Crane's Landing. This would be consistent w/ what she told Chris S too. But, leaving the car somewhere that might appear broken-down or abandoned w/ the body in the trunk woulda been a huge gamble...I've been back'n forth re: the text to Amy 'bout running outta gas two Friday's in a row. Was she a day off...and she'd told this story to Amy too at some point prior to 6/27, hence, Amy having a reference for both events??

I know I definitely over-thought her disposal site before we knew of Suburban Dr.. I still am amazed she executed the disposal on Suburban (a) taking a chance on being seen, and (b) when there were so many other 'better' options. Sooo...maybe I'm over-thinking again....gotta learn the lesson again...think Casey...think Casey...

...which kinda brings me to something simpler like Casey returning to Tony's after Chris S.'s ~7:30PM and bagged the body by parking her car in a space outta the way @ Sutton apt. (there are some tree-covered corners...and the lot may have been relatively empty during summer break since it is so close to Full Sail, perhaps a decent sized college-student contingent). Then, she drove down to Suburban in the Pontiac and disposed of the body. The body was already in a hamper bag...so being seen @ Sutton xfr'ing bag into bag wouldn't have been a problem....only the odor...doable methinks.

IF Casey had used the outta-gas or broken-down excuse just to avoid the chance of taking the Pontiac to Crane's Landing...then perhaps...the reason she was driving the Jeep @ Chris S's had something to do w/ the the logistics of switching drivers & Tony's plans that evening. Chris S.'s is near Fusian, correct? It was Thursday night. Did Tony hafta set things up for the next night, Fusian Friday...giving Casey some time to excuse herself while he worked???

Why Suburban??? Outta the way vs. starting out @ Tony's apt. I know, but, that's a whole 'nother subject...

I agree re: bag & knife. Those logistics hafta work too.

RE: duct tape: Perhaps there was some duct tape in Amy's totalled car left over from the ABC party. The party was in May before she wrecked her car...and the car was @ Tony's apt post-6/14...Casey had the key.

RE: bag: I'm back to what you suggested in the 6/19 ping thread...that Casey used the 50min period between 3:07PM and 3:57PM to run over to JBPark...think through her plan...then stop by one of the stores nearby and pick up the bags.

tx_Dot
01-24-2009, 12:42 PM
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?Didn't she tell Tony her Dad was going to pick the car up from amscot & fix it.??

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.

The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag. Very easy to poke hole in g-bag, besides it also *looks* like trash.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.IIRC, CA gave LE some evidence from the home in a g-bag, looks like they kept the bag too.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.

Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.

The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.Did we ever find out if this is butter knife or like from a set of (sharp) kitchen knives ?? maybe since CA had already mentioned a knife, she just grabbed one to give to LE ??

The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?Wonder if Amy duct tape was almost used up ?? Also nowdays they're selling smaller rolls of duct tape.

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.

hope this helps

Kat
01-24-2009, 01:04 PM
You all have excellent theories and I enjoy reading your work. I have nothing to add at all with the exception to a comment by JWG.

JWG speculated about robitussin and/or nyquil. I thought also, if she were medicating Caylee in order to make her sleepy with an OTC med. she might be using Benedryl.

The reason I say that is because of the fact it is OTC and many people assume that it's safe as aspirin and/or tylenol.

What brought this to mind was not only am I in contact with younger adults that express that they themselves have done this in the past to their own children. But an incident that happened back in 2003 or so.

Day care workers were medicating infants in order to make them sleep. Several infants have died from being given benedryl. Now Caylee was 2 yrs and 10 months (I believe) at the time of her death but benedryl can easily be purchased in liquid form and given to a child mixed with a drink.

Just wanted to add that so that you all could explore it and rule it out:

Link to article discussing the deaths of the daycare infants:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/earlyshow/health/health_news/main571181.shtml

JWG
01-24-2009, 01:08 PM
Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.

While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:

JWG
01-24-2009, 01:11 PM
You all have excellent theories and I enjoy reading your work. I have nothing to add at all with the exception to a comment by JWG.

JWG speculated about robitussin and/or nyquil. I thought also, if she were medicating Caylee in order to make her sleepy with an OTC med. she might be using Benedryl.

The reason I say that is because of the fact it is OTC and many people assume that it's safe as aspirin and/or tylenol.

What brought this to mind was not only am I in contact with younger adults that express that they themselves have done this in the past to their own children. But an incident that happened back in 2003 or so.

Day care workers were medicating infants in order to make them sleep. Several infants have died from being given benedryl. Now Caylee was 2 yrs and 10 months (I believe) at the time of her death but benedryl can easily be purchased in liquid form and given to a child mixed with a drink.

Just wanted to add that so that you all could explore it and rule it out:

Link to article discussing the deaths of the daycare infants:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/earlyshow/health/health_news/main571181.shtml

Thank you Kat. I did not mean to give an exhaustive list, but if I did try then Benadryl would be at the top.

Caylee and Casey had what sounds like colds per the texts to Amy in late May, so no doubt they had meds for that in the house.

JWG
01-24-2009, 01:56 PM
While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:

I have a possible answer.

On July 15th after the Anthony's brought the car home from the tow yard, they took the battery out of the car, opened the windows and doors and tried to air it out. They both also went to work. Cindy eventually came back home early at the urging of her co-workers.

Not knowing really what to do, she took a bunch of items out of the car. Most of the items she took inside the house - the backpack, hangers, toothbrush, clothing items, purse, dinner knife. But one item did not "belong" inside the house - it was more a "garage" item.

The used roll of duct tape. :eek:

As Cindy was cleaning the car, she probably tossed it on one of the shelves in the garage. And promptly forgot about it.

She also tossed the stinky clothes in the laundry located in the garage, as those on the "house plans" thread have hypothesized. Makes sense...

She put all of the other items together in one area inside the house...maybe Casey's room. Then she texted KC and asked her to call her - "big problem". (All of that is on another thread).

When Det. Beasley collected the items from Cindy, Cindy probably just grabbed those in one place, put them in a plastic garbage bag, and handed them to the Det. By now she'd forgotten the duct tape because of the emotional whirlwind she was going through. Honest oversight, IMHO.

Now, before there is a flurry of "Cindy meant to hide the duct tape", recognize we all make mistakes, especially when in crisis. I believe such an oversight is not just possible but likely. The good news is that even if the duct tape did not originally come from the Anthony's, LE may very likely be in possession of the roll because Cindy put it in the garage.

Speaking of mistakes...read the incident report Det. Beasley wrote regarding the collection of these items. Cindy is listed as a black, 27 year old female with black hair. Methinks Det. Beasley was describing herself and not Cindy... :rolleyes:

reeseeva
01-24-2009, 01:57 PM
While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially:rolleyes: incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially:rolleyes: used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:

Insertions by me!

JWG You're getting the "potentially" bug! That word will never be the same for me.

One question I have is why the garbage bag inside a laundry bag, out in the open, a laundry bag is easier to spot, rather that a black garbage bag amonst so many others in the area?

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 02:20 PM
I am new to the ADD calculations and at this early stage in my relationship with that data I am besotted. In its simplest form I take it to indicate that the body was in the trunk decomposing for 3.01 days. What's .01 between WSers? Call it 3 Days.
For now I am taking that as a Given and a base in any proposed scenario. Whatever TOD, and time of body dumping/bagging in plastic are, I am for now assuming 3 days between them. Decide one and you fix the other.
I accept the fd video and testimony about the early part of 15th., so death could not have been earlier than that evening and probably later still than that. So as a starting point I am looking at the body being bagged/dumped late evening/night of 18th at the earliest. How does that fit in with phone and computer evidence?
It seems the 19th is largely ruled out, so I come back to the 20th for dumping, implying the 17th for TOD?

On reflection where I have said TOD, I really mean Time body placed in trunk.

natsound
01-24-2009, 02:28 PM
hope this helps


tx Dot, I read very early on that it was a butter knife.

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 02:39 PM
Speaking of mistakes...read the incident report Det. Beasley wrote regarding the collection of these items. Cindy is listed as a black, 27 year old female with black hair. Methinks Det. Beasley was describing herself and not Cindy... :rolleyes:
*snipped*
:) There's another Cindy Anthony that fits that description in Orlando...she had priors. :)

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 02:45 PM
*snipped*
:) There's another Cindy Anthony that fits that description in Orlando...she had priors. :)
Will the second one be suing?

BondJamesBond
01-24-2009, 02:48 PM
I am new to the ADD calculations and at this early stage in my relationship with that data I am besotted.
Besotted? I think they have antibiotics for that nowadays. Might wanna see your physician :)


In its simplest form I take it to indicate that the body was in the trunk decomposing for 3.01 days.
Well...sorta...better to state that the the body was in contact with the trunk (or at least not in a leak-proof container...ala hamper bag) when the accumulated-degree-day clock stopped ticking because (a) the body was placed inside something leakproof eliminating the contact evidence, or (b) the body was removed entirely.


For now I am taking that as a Given and a base in any proposed scenario.
You can use +/- an hour or two depending on time of day the t.o.d. occurred, but, you get the point...


Whatever TOD, and time of body dumping/bagging in plastic are, I am for now assuming 3 days between them.Decide one and you fix the other.
Well said.


I accept the fd video and testimony about the early part of 15th., so death could not have been earlier than that evening and probably later still than that. So as a starting point I am looking at the body being bagged/dumped late evening/night of 18th at the earliest. How does that fit in with phone and computer evidence?
Regarding phone only...after 7PM...you have plenty of time to make it work.


It seems the 19th is largely ruled out, so I come back to the 20th for dumping, implying the 17th for TOD?
Dunno why you're ruling out 19th??

Julius
01-24-2009, 02:52 PM
Will the second one be suing?

:clap: LOL!

Jay D
01-24-2009, 03:01 PM
This thread is certainly fascinating, and I want to first of all thank all of the contributors. My mind is not fashioned to think as deeply as the posters and detectives here, so when I study this thread, I think more of myself sitting on the jury contemplating the evidence as put forth by the prosecution (You the sleuths). I hope it's O.K. for me to insert my thoughs as a juror here.

There is much good info in this post by JWG, enough to stimulate me to think things through again. I'll start my juror thoughts here and insert my reactions in red font.

Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.
As a juror, I have yet to see sufficient evidence that the Jeep was used to transport the body.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:
Totally agree.

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.
Yes, I think it easy to carry the bag that short distance. Even though Suburban is lightly traveled that time of year, a vehicle backed over the curb would have LOOKED highly suspicious. I sense that to much has been read into one of LP's statements on NG.
The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.
Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.
Extremely good point. As a juror, I would have to rely on my faith (or lack thereof) in the Body Farm Timeline. Bagging on the 18th in the backyard would make sense. Laying the leaking laundry bag on the ground while attempted digging could explain the hits by cadaver dog/s.
The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.
The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.As a juror, I did the unthinkable (remember the unstable boat in the SP trial?) and performed my own experiment. I took some duct tape from my garage this morn and compared the effort of cutting it with a dinner knife as opposed to tearing it. It was easier to tear it. Maybe KC didn't know this and thought she needed a knife, but thinking like a 22 year old girl, wouldn't she have grabbed scissors rather than a kitchen knife? Also I noticed that cutting with a knife would not leave a print on the sticky side of the tape still on the roll. To this juror, there is really not a needed correlation between the knife and the tape.



5. Why chose that dump site? No immediate panic and no need to go so close to A's
I think this is a very valid and important point. As a juror, I just have to believe that KC would have chosen a much more remote location. Also, this location really puts into suspect that KC would have had an accomplice.

Once again, thanks to the contributors here. I appreciate all of the work (Bond, gonna give you extra credit here), that all here have done. Looking forward to further posts in this thread.

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 03:13 PM
Dunno why you're ruling out 19th??

I misspoke.

I was putting 19th to one side temporarily.
I don't like trying to incorporate the jeep, transfering the body, bagging away from A's back yard.
The actual date is probably the best for most scenarios in regards to manner and time of death.
Tell me again why it could not be that KC was driving around in her own car at least in the earlier part of 19th?

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 05:39 PM
I cannot give up the notion that the body was finally bagged and readied for dumping while in the Anthony's back yard or garage. It may have been moved around in just a laundry bag, but having decided to transport it away and dump it; KC grabbed a garbage bag from the Anthony stock supply and placed the body, already in a laundry bag, in the plastic bag. To fit with Fathers Day 15th, plus 3 days ADD this cannot be done on 18th. Neither can it be done 19th since KC not in the vicinity of A's. I am back again to 20th and I believe KC was spotted early afternoon backing her car into A's garage. That seems the likely time for bagging the body and sealing the bag thus stopping the ADD clock.
Calculating back 3 days to find TOD, gives aprox 1:00 pm Tuesday 17th June. This leads to some horrible thoughts of Caylee in the trunk for almost a full day. Heavily sedated, perhaps bound and gagged, likely in a coma and eventually succumbing to dehydration or asphyxia.

PS I have changed my view on precisely WHERE Caylee died, and when Caylee died. I still have not absolutely decided when the body was dumped, but I now think more than likely dumped soon after bagging on the 20th. It is still possible the body was left bagged in the trunk untill the 24th as I previously thought, but I am rapidly moving away from that notion.

kcaddict
01-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.

The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.

Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.

The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.

The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.


How can we be sure CA gave them the correct knife anyway? How would LE know? Is it stated in a doc dump that CA took it from the car and washed it, or is that in an interview somewhere? I know it's common knowledge, but I'm just wondering where that info. came from. I can't go back and look right now, but wasn't the knife listed as "items removed from the car", as in LE removed it from the car?

Bold by me:)

Great post as usual...just a couple of my thoughts.
Tony might have large bags....college age teens, lots of party's, need big trash bags to throw out all the beer and pizza and other junk.

My only other thought was the body was disposed of so close to home because it was a familiar location..I don't know like she was in control because she knew the area...

LazyCat08
01-24-2009, 06:51 PM
My only other thought was the body was disposed of so close to home because it was a familiar location..I don't know like she was in control because she knew the area...



I know what the experts say about murders disposing of bodies in their own home, backyard, or places they are familiar with but I just don't know.....KC wasn't a serial killer....(at least not yet)

I can't escape the thought that the body was put there in a panic....that just makes sense to me.....it just seems like it was thrown, perhaps with an intention to move it later.

I mean......Its not like KC or anyone could have known that the area would flood and be nearly unsearchable.

Either that or she put it there as part of a set up for "the nanny did it" story, thinking that it would make more sense for a kidnapper the dump the body close by???

Or someone else was involved and that person put the body there

BUT STILL I believe it was in a panic.....like perhaps at one point KC was driving around out by the airport looking for a place to put Caylee but for whatever reason she didn't dispose of her and then something happened and it was an "oh *****, I need to get rid of this right now" situation.

I assume that the area was quiet without a lot of people driving by because it was summer and the school would have been closed....

just some thought.....I wonder if we"ll ever know

ibyoungr
01-24-2009, 08:01 PM
Some thoughts...

Texts with AH in late May indicate KC had been sick, and Caylee too, probably with colds. Originally, I thought this is where the "little snothead" comment to Rusciano had come from - Caylee was a mucous machine. But, the comment to Rusciano was early May and the texts regarding KC and Caylee health were late May. So probably no connection.

However, I am wondering if KC discovered the power of Robitussin or Nyquil or something else during this period. :waitasec:

Fast forward to the 16th. KC leaves her parent's and goes up to Lee's, where she gives Caylee some medicine. Caylee is used to this routine by now...been happening since the end of May. KC straps a sleeping Caylee in her car seat and heads back to the parent's.

KC had several bags with her and carries a few in, leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car. Then comes that 30 minute call with Amy. Good times reminisced...check out photos on Facebook...IM friends about the wild night.

Call ends with Amy...KC continues to surf and browse...Jesse calls and they talk about KC issues for 13 minutes. Then a call comes in from George interrupting the KC-centric world. Sometime during this brief conversation he mentions Caylee. After the call KC goes out to check on her daughter...who has now been in the car asleep an hour.

Still looks like she is asleep. Head plopped over to one side. Yep, asleep.

KC goes back in and packs for her and Caylee. Grabs a toy or two...Winnie the Pooh blanket...etc. Calls AL to confirm plans. Then a flurry of calls to GA and CA looking for babysitting coverage.

No dice. Will have to drive up there with the "little snot head" and make excuses for going home early.

Arrives at AL's near 4:30. Goes back to get Caylee and something does not seem right. She is unresponsive. Cold to the touch. Lifeless eyes. KC figures out she has a BIG problem. Looks around and sees no one is around. Pops the trunk and quickly puts Caylee inside with the clothes and blanket she had gathered earlier. "Mama" remains in the car.

June 17 - travel back to parent's to evaluate situation. Caylee clearly dead. KC finds a laundry bag and places Caylee inside. Maybe puts Pooh blankie in there as well...for comfort.

June 18 - tries to bury body in back yard with BB's shovel. No luck. Returns body to trunk.

After that...still contemplating...

If I was on a jury, I would buy JWG's scenario with the "cold medicine" before the use of chloroform. Unless the evidence can show me if chloroform was actually purchased or made and if there was a container found that had choloform in it.

I would accept a theory of suffocation as I have stated in the beginning and the August 14th video cements this for me. Caylee is asleep.. and wakes up and begs to go swimming and CASEY has a fit and suffocates her.

I do not buy putting Caylee in Tony's jeep... alot of vehicles have stains. Unless the FORENSICS show it to be decomp. So far we do not have those forensics.

I do not buy her chloroforming Caylee before they went to Blockbusters. It takes about 15 minutes for chloroform to wear off. Caylee would be in the back of the Pontiac at the apt while Casey was at Blockbusters with Tony. Caylee would have awakened before their return and even if she had duct tape on she would have made noises from the trunk(kicking or hitting from the inside. The duct tape was on her hair.

Addition to JWG's theory above:
June 17th... she comes up with the ZFG kidnapping story. She puts the duct tape on with a heart over Caylee's mouth. I think this serves a dual purpose.
(a) Here is a kiss from mommy... I love you but you should have been quiet. Now you are quiet forever.
(b) "See kidnapper Z did this... she warned me to stay quiet and she killed Caylee and put duct tape on here mouth and the heart was put there because she wanted me to be reminded that I did not love Caylee enough

After June 19th Casey really starts on her story to build up the ZFG theory. She talks to her friends...mom and boyfriend about Caylee being with the nanny.

preciouskhg
01-24-2009, 08:06 PM
I think the duct tape was put on after she passed. If it was put on before she passed, I would think she would being trying to pull it off. Unless her hands were tied or taped. Thoughts?

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 08:09 PM
I think the duct tape was put on after she passed. If it was put on before she passed, I would think she would being trying to pull it off. Unless her hands were tied or taped. Thoughts?
I have been thinking the tape was applied after death, but now I am thinking before death. I have always said if the tape was used as a gag before Caylee died, then her hands were taped as well or tied.

reeseeva
01-24-2009, 08:22 PM
If I was on a jury, I would buy JWG's scenario with the "cold medicine" before the use of chloroform. Unless the evidence can show me if chloroform was actually purchased or made and if there was a container found that had choloform in it.

I would accept a theory of suffocation as I have stated in the beginning and the August 14th video cements this for me. Caylee is asleep.. and wakes up and begs to go swimming and CASEY has a fit and suffocates her.

I do not buy putting Caylee in Tony's jeep... alot of vehicles have stains. Unless the FORENSICS show it to be decomp. So far we do not have those forensics.

I do not buy her chloroforming Caylee before they went to Blockbusters. It takes about 15 minutes for chloroform to wear off. Caylee would be in the back of the Pontiac at the apt while Casey was at Blockbusters with Tony. Caylee would have awakened before their return and even if she had duct tape on she would have made noises from the trunk(kicking or hitting from the inside. The duct tape was on her hair.

Addition to JWG's theory above:
June 17th... she comes up with the ZFG kidnapping story. She puts the duct tape on with a heart over Caylee's mouth. I think this serves a dual purpose.
(a) Here is a kiss from mommy... I love you but you should have been quiet. Now you are quiet forever.
(b) "See kidnapper Z did this... she warned me to stay quiet and she killed Caylee and put duct tape on here mouth and the heart was put there because she wanted me to be reminded that I did not love Caylee enough

After June 19th Casey really starts on her story to build up the ZFG theory. She talks to her friends...mom and boyfriend about Caylee being with the nanny.:eek::eek::eek:

WOW! I'm speechless!:eek::waitasec::eek::waitasec:

preciouskhg
01-24-2009, 08:27 PM
I might be off base or not knowing what I am talking about, with that said... Do you think that KC might have used that abandoned house that the PI was filming to keep her daughter there? There must be some relevanced to that house? How far is it from where the A's live and where Caylee was found?

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 08:53 PM
I might be off base or not knowing what I am talking about, with that said... Do you think that KC might have used that abandoned house that the PI was filming to keep her daughter there? There must be some relevanced to that house? How far is it from where the A's live and where Caylee was found?
I don't think so. Some others here do.
I can't imagine KC going anywhere near an abandoned house. There were neighbours nearby who I think would notice somebody coming and going and might be alerted by a crying child etc. Always a risk that the owner would visit or just some other person tresspassing.

preciouskhg
01-24-2009, 09:05 PM
Thanks HP! I really enjoy reading your posts. You have put so much into them. Really makes me think more. I thought she might use that house to drug her and put her there for a while, since the home owner's last name is "Gonzales", IIRC. I will be glad when this is over, it makes me sick to know that this happened to a sweet defenseless child. To know I was right there back in October on vacation and drove right by her home and where she was found. If I only knew. We did make a comment, just think she could be right here and not know it. URGH!

websurfer
01-24-2009, 09:10 PM
It's all possible but it seems strange that if she was using this home as a hide-out, that no one would have noticed??? None of the neighbors would have seen her come and go???


Wonder if LE has taken the dogs there to sniff to see if she was ever in the house there?

I never gave iot a thought but heck yes she coulda gone there to hang out till they all left the house ?
And called to see if anybody was there and all?
And in her mind maybe she wanted that house and made up all the stuff/Wonder if the owners left any paperwork in it ? that Kc may have found and then started looking up the name and found ZFG?
So yes a connection to this house is a sure thing as far as
where she came up with the surname ha?Good idea!

Rumpole
01-24-2009, 09:15 PM
Thanks HP! I really enjoy reading your posts. You have put so much into them. Really makes me think more. I thought she might use that house to drug her and put her there for a while, since the home owner's last name is "Gonzales", IIRC. I will be glad when this is over, it makes me sick to know that this happened to a sweet defenseless child. To know I was right there back in October on vacation and drove right by her home and where she was found. If I only knew. We did make a comment, just think she could be right here and not know it. URGH!
I would be prepared to accept there is some dubious links between the PI and possibly they were fed info from somewhere in the A tribe. I think they and other searchers searched all sorts of places, including a few old houses. Some probably videoed bits and pieces. I just can not imagine KC using that house or any other close to neighbours. How would she know nobody would turn up or check what was going on? I think prior to the last few weeks before Caylee disappeared I think KC managed to take Caylee with her or con various people into minding her.

Marina2
01-24-2009, 10:50 PM
A lot of work has been done regarding the tempurature in Orlando and that of the trunk in relation to a decomposing body. I agree with all the conclusions that this data point to. What bothers me is that it is all based on the assumption that Caylee was in the trunk at the time of death or immediately thereafter. If she was killed in the house on the night of the 15th or early am of the 16th, she could have been in the house for as long as 12 hours or more before being placed in the trunk. In this case, the first part of decomposing would have occurred in a much cooler environment than a trunk. Just something else to think about as far as the 2.6 days goes.

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 12:22 AM
I misspoke.

I was putting 19th to one side temporarily.
I don't like trying to incorporate the jeep, transfering the body, bagging away from A's back yard.
The actual date is probably the best for most scenarios in regards to manner and time of death.
Tell me again why it could not be that KC was driving around in her own car at least in the earlier part of 19th?

Distilling it down... the crux of it all is that a theory MUST fit the following:

1) A time of death that suits cell pings, computer forensics, surveil video, and statements indicating Casey's whereabouts & actions
2) A bagging and/or disposal opportunity no sooner than ~3 days (ADD) from the t.o.d. selected in (1) above.

To use a couple of examples...


Example A: 3PM 6/16 death by whatever cause => 4PM 6/19 bagging and/or disposal. Bagging and/or disposal is due to both stop the ADD clock. By checking we can find that 3:07PM 6/19 Casey had a 50min period beginning @ 3:07PM when she had gone, almost spontaneously it seems, from Tony's Apt. to near JBPark before showing up @ Tony's Apt. again @ 3:57PM on the computer. So, IMHO, this works...with allowing a small% error in the ADD #...just fill in your own theory re: cause of death and see if it works for you. This example means the disposal on Suburban Dr. had to occur sometime after 6/19 3:57PM, which could've easily been any number of times, but, most likely 6/19 between 5:45-9PM when Casey's cell appears to be off for 3.3 hours (very unusual for her @ this time of day) OR in between 1:30-2:18PM 6/20 immediately before or after Casey backs into G&C's garage for the last time. Either are very doable, IMHO.

Example B: 7:20PM 6/16 death by whatever cause => 7:30PM 6/19 bagging and/or disposal. Bagging and/or disposal is due to both stop the ADD clock. By checking we can find that 6/19 between 5:45-9PM Casey's cell appears to be off for 3.3 hours (very unusual for her @ this time of day) OR in between 1:30-2:18PM 6/20 immediately before or after Casey backs into G&C's garage for the last time. Either are very doable, IMHO.

So....in these two examples you can see how the information triangulates. We then, are left to pick a cause of death that suits the activities described around the time of the assumed death, and, any other evidence that has surfaced that may relate to the cause of death.

Personally, I've moved to Example B - for the time being - owing to the discovery of a "flurry" of calls behavior on 6/9 that suggests to me that these flurries are evidence of Casey wanting to drop Caylee w/ Cindy. The flurries on 6/16 occur 4:10-4:14PM and again @ 6:30, concluded with a 7:06PM 1.4min call w/ Cindy (perhaps a Cindy-sayin'-NFW call) and 2 attempts to reach Amy @ 7:20PM. The balance of phone activity for Casey that evening are incoming events that did not require or indicate her interacting w/ the phone. This is consistent w/ her watching a couple of movies (est. 3hrs total) that evening w/ Tony.

IOW...if you're working a theory, your bagging and/or disposal time & date is set by your t.o.d. and forensic ADD. If you pick a t.o.d. that translates to a bagging and/or disposal date & time when Casey was engaged in an activity that makes this improbable (e.g. WARNING...silly example...Casey couldn't bag and/or dispose @ a date/time when she was witnessed by several partyin' @ Fusian 6/20 10PM, hence, 6/17 10PM would be a very improbable t.o.d. regardless of cause) - then, the theory is improbable...try again.

Hope that helps.

Jersey*Girl
01-25-2009, 12:25 AM
I have been thinking the tape was applied after death, but now I am thinking before death. I have always said if the tape was used as a gag before Caylee died, then her hands were taped as well or tied.

I wonder if she buried Caylee, rather hastily, out back by their pool until she figured out what to do with her. She remained there in the dirt for a few days. Maybe she drowned in the pool. Maybe she suffocated in the car. IDK. But maybe, just maybe, Casey began to panic & did a quick bury out back until she could move her. When a body dies, it becomes rigid rather quickly. Maybe that's the reason for the Duct tape. Maybe when Casey dug up Caylee, her mouth was open and still couldn't be pushed closed from rigor mortis, so of course that would be the first place maggots would feed off of. Either way, drowning or suffocating in a hot car, wouldn't Caylee have died with her mouth open trying to gasp for oxygen? It only takes a second for a fly to lay it's eggs. Maybe when Casey dug her up, she was sickened by the amount of maggots in Caylee's mouth (as well as other orifices of her little innocent body), so she placed duct tape over it when she realized she couldn't fight the maggots. Maybe that's the reason for the heart sticker on the Duct tape. Then maybe Casey left for a few more days, only to return when GA wasn't home, to dig up her daughter and place her elsewhere. Remember, the neighbor said Casey only borrowed the shovel for a short amount of time...on the same day her car was backed into the garage. Maybe this was to retrieve her daughter from the backyard. It still makes me wonder why the new landscaping was done during the time Caylee went missing. There's still not enough concrete evidence for me to believe GA & CA helped Casey dispose of her daughter, but I still wonder about their actions thus far. Bond, JWG, Hercule - great posts, as usual! Thanks to the many intelligent posters that brought me out of lurkdom!:heart:

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 12:32 AM
A lot of work has been done regarding the tempurature in Orlando and that of the trunk in relation to a decomposing body. I agree with all the conclusions that this data point to. What bothers me is that it is all based on the assumption that Caylee was in the trunk at the time of death or immediately thereafter. If she was killed in the house on the night of the 15th or early am of the 16th, she could have been in the house for as long as 12 hours or more before being placed in the trunk. In this case, the first part of decomposing would have occurred in a much cooler environment than a trunk. Just something else to think about as far as the 2.6 days goes.

Excellent observation, Marina2. I actually built into the spreadsheet the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk on different dates & times to observe that effect.

In short, if the body comes out of the trunk it does slow the ADD by a relatively small amount owing to the cooler ambient vs. trunk temperature. The example I just ran for you:

T.O.D. 6/16 midnight
Trunk 6/16 1PM
Yields 6/19 2:40AM for ADD to reach target. Soooo...extends beyond the nominal 3 days by 1hr & 40mins.

Hope that helps.

tfrohning
01-25-2009, 12:35 AM
I might be off base or not knowing what I am talking about, with that said... Do you think that KC might have used that abandoned house that the PI was filming to keep her daughter there? There must be some relevanced to that house? How far is it from where the A's live and where Caylee was found?

I wonder about the house too, that a very interesting theory. One I am going to sleep on.

Dr. Know?
01-25-2009, 12:44 AM
Excellent observation, Marina2. I actually built into the spreadsheet the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk on different dates & times to observe that effect.

In short, if the body comes out of the trunk it does slow the ADD by a relatively small amount owing to the cooler ambient vs. trunk temperature. The example I just ran for you:

T.O.D. 6/16 midnight
Trunk 6/16 1PM
Yields 6/19 2:40AM for ADD to reach target. Soooo...extends beyond the nominal 3 days by 1hr & 40mins.

Hope that helps.

Wow BJB, I haven't had to build a spreadsheet like this in a few years and it had nothing to do with murder. That's a lot of work and no one told me how great it was (only bosses who wanted to know exactly where there money was). Yours is to say at the least very well thought out. Mine was made to know where money was. Great job with the fine tuning. Thanks! My guess was the 15th around midnight or so she died with the disposal date of the 18th. Novice, I know. Go BJB.

tx_Dot
01-25-2009, 12:45 AM
tx Dot, I read very early on that it was a butter knife.

That's what I remembered too, but some were talking about using it on the duct tape.....I don't think that would work too,good....:confused:

flnana
01-25-2009, 01:11 AM
Maybe from evidence they gathered with the body? What follows is hypothetical: Even if evidence of chloroform, tape and cloth was found at the scene, experts would still not be able to determine it was the cause of death. The manner in which these were applied/ or never removed might tell a clearer story of intent. JMO.

One thing I keep thinking about is that there is no way to put duct tape around the mouth of a 2 or 3 year old without covering the nose. It is too wide. Maybe that in itself is enough to show intent???

FORDANIEL
01-25-2009, 01:19 AM
Haven't read all the theories here so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.I believe that the TOD was the 16th.I believe KC killed Caylee in a rage of some sort,either because Caylee told on KC,and thus the fight on the 15th,or just simply to spite CA.Manner of death homicide per ME,so I believe they have evidence to support this.I believe the dogs hit in the back yard due to hosing off of "stuff" from the car,and emptying of buckets of water,from cleaning the car. I could not decide which method in the poll was used,if any of these,but I do believe it was a violent,horrible ,revengeful death,and I believe LE knows what it was. I believe KC acted alone.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 01:38 AM
Excellent observation, Marina2. I actually built into the spreadsheet the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk on different dates & times to observe that effect.

In short, if the body comes out of the trunk it does slow the ADD by a relatively small amount owing to the cooler ambient vs. trunk temperature. The example I just ran for you:

T.O.D. 6/16 midnight
Trunk 6/16 1PM
Yields 6/19 2:40AM for ADD to reach target. Soooo...extends beyond the nominal 3 days by 1hr & 40mins.

Hope that helps.
That means that the very rough "3days" as a quick calculation aid would only increase and not decrease. I don't think we need to consider a situation where the body was removed from the trunk and placed in a warmer environment, say a furnace room or whatever.

I follow your examples fit data as you say, but both require bagging at least in public and presumably by manoevering the body in the trunk. I guess the example involving the Park might have secluded spots, but still public area with danger of being seen.

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 01:50 AM
Wonder if LE has taken the dogs there to sniff to see if she was ever in the house there?

I never gave iot a thought but heck yes she coulda gone there to hang out till they all left the house ?
And called to see if anybody was there and all?
And in her mind maybe she wanted that house and made up all the stuff/Wonder if the owners left any paperwork in it ? that Kc may have found and then started looking up the name and found ZFG?
So yes a connection to this house is a sure thing as far as
where she came up with the surname ha?Good idea!

My personal belief about the empty Gonzalez house is this.

DC was looking for the body with directions coming over the phone from "somebody". He had been digging in the Gonzalez house previously looking for a suitable place to move the body so if it was found it would be found in a house that had a connection to someone named Gonzalez. If not all the better. :cow:


I wonder if she buried Caylee, rather hastily, out back by their pool until she figured out what to do with her. She remained there in the dirt for a few days. Maybe she drowned in the pool and that's why her bathing suit was found with her. Maybe she suffocated in the car. IDK. But maybe, just maybe, Casey began to panic & did a quick bury out back until she could move her. When a body dies, it becomes rigid rather quickly. Maybe that's the reason for the Duct tape. Maybe when Casey dug up Caylee, her mouth was open and still couldn't be pushed closed from rigor mortis, so of course that would be the first place maggots would feed off of. Either way, drowning or suffocating in a hot car, wouldn't Caylee have died with her mouth open trying to gasp for oxygen? It only takes a second for a fly to lay it's eggs. Maybe when Casey dug her up, she was sickened by the amount of maggots in Caylee's mouth (as well as other orifices of her little innocent body), so she placed duct tape over it when she realized she couldn't fight the maggots. Maybe that's the reason for the heart sticker on the Duct tape. Then maybe Casey left for a few more days, only to return when GA wasn't home, to dig up her daughter and place her elsewhere. Remember, the neighbor said Casey only borrowed the shovel for a short amount of time...on the same day her car was backed into the garage. Maybe this was to retrieve her daughter from the backyard. It still makes me wonder why the new landscaping was done during the time Caylee went missing. There's still not enough concrete evidence for me to believe GA & CA helped Casey dispose of her daughter, but I still wonder about their actions thus far. Bond, JWG, Hercule - great posts, as usual! Thanks to the many intelligent posters that brought me out of lurkdom!:heart:

IIRC, her bathing suit was not found with her.

Jersey*Girl
01-25-2009, 02:32 AM
IIRC, her bathing suit was not found with her.

OMGosh, you're right! Very sorry...I thought part of a swimsuit of sorts was found among her remains. I'll go back and edit. I just searched the doc dump and see you're correct. I must have heard it from my friend that lives there. Since it's not a proven fact, I'll have to erase that thought. Thanks:)

suepitzl
01-25-2009, 02:35 AM
My personal belief about the empty Gonzalez house is this.

DC was looking for the body with directions coming over the phone from "somebody". He had been digging in the Gonzalez house previously looking for a suitable place to move the body so if it was found it would be found in a house that had a connection to someone named Gonzalez. If not all the better. :cow:



IIRC, her bathing suit was not found with her.
I think you are exactly right about the DC wanting to move the body to that house!!!! What has ever happened to the investigation of him?

JWG
01-25-2009, 02:58 AM
Here is yet another theory of mine, pulling bits and pieces out of old ones and sprinkling in some new details (discarding old, stale details that did not work, of course).

June 16

George sees KC and Caylee leave just before 1:00PM. Caylee is alive and walking under her own power, IMHO. There are three possible places they go: Kristina's, the elementary school playground, or Lee's. I am guessing Lee's - he's at work.

KC tries to get Caylee to go down for her nap, but she isn't ready. Tony calls and they talk for nearly 15 minutes. After the call KC still can't get Caylee to go to sleep, so she gets frustrated and medicates her with children's cold medicine, maybe Benedryl. KC has been doing this now periodically for nearly a month since Caylee had her cold in mid-May.

Caylee konks out around 1:40, and KC can finally have some peace. She dials up Amy and launches into a 36 minute call with her. They discuss boys, partying, gossip...Amy mentions some stuff on Facebook and MySpace, but KC is not on a computer. KC has to see this stuff, so she throws her stuff back into the car, puts a sleeping Caylee in the car seat, and drives back to the Anthony's - never getting of the phone. They arrive right around 2:00 with George safely gone.

KC grabs a couple things and takes them in, and intends to return immediately for Caylee...but something Amy says causes her to go fire up the computer and start surfing. More gossip, laughs, chit-chat. Call ends around 2:15.

At this point she is into it. She's surfing her friend's Facebook and MySpace pages, catching up on what they are up to, posting on their wall, commenting on photos, checks out the club events for the coming weekend, reads the latest celebrity gossip, maybe even fires up an internet chat with a friend.

Jesse calls around 2:53 and they talk about KC's problems at home, her moving out...a deep conversation that is interrupted by a call from George just after 3:00. He's spoken with Cindy, and they are in agreement: No staying overnight with the nanny. Both she and Caylee need to come home no matter how late KC's event runs.

Caylee...

She's just spent the last hour in the car with temps just above 90 outside. KC unstraps her from the car seat and brings her in, hoping to revive her, but it is already pretty obvious. She's been dead for more than a few minutes. The A/C never really cooled the car off during the short drive over from Lee's, and it did not take long for the car to go above 120 F once it was turned off. KC's mom was right - she's an unfit mother.

KC paces around not knowing what to do. The narcissist inside knows she needs to leave, and with Caylee. She calls Tony and tells him she is free for the evening...can she come over for the night? Tony readily agrees.

KC grabs the laundry bag and puts Caylee in it. She carries this to the car and puts it in the trunk. She packs for herself a couple of items, not really planning ahead beyond the coming eveing. Then she drives up to Tony's.

June 17

KC drives to her parent's home and backs into the garage. She opens the trunk and contemplates what to do next. Nothing really comes to mind. She tries moving the body and notices how stiff it is - no longer a cuddly girl. She is surprised at this and closes the trunk, goes inside to get more clothing for another night at Tony's, and leaves.

June 18

A return trip to the Anthony home, this time with a plan of what to do with Caylee: she will bury her in the yard. Unfortunately, she cannot get into the shed, so like any forward-thinker out there who wants to keep tracks covered, she goes to the neighbor and asks to borrow a shovel. :rolleyes: She moves the body to the back yard near a possible grave site. Digging even a shallow grave soon proves to be a daunting task, so KC rinses the shovel and returns it to the neighbor. Caylee goes back into the trunk and they return to Tony's.

June 19

She and Tony plan to meet with Matt C. late in the afternoon to look at an apartment. Prior to that meeting KC is cleaning Tony's apartment and around 3:00PM decides to take the garbage out on her way to Target or someplace like that. She opens the trunk and as she tosses the bag in she notices a stain on the liner under Caylee's laundry bag, and an unpleasant odor. She opens the bag to see where the stain is coming from and sees that fluid has been leaking from Caylee's mouth. Unbeknownst to KC, the movement of the body on the previous day accellerated the process of causing fluids to leak from the body.

This discovery surprises and horrifies Casey. Her first thought is to stop the fluid from coming out of Caylee's mouth. She recalls having Amy's duct tape in her car and pulls the roll out. From past experience she knows she cannot tear it well with her hands, so she runs inside and grabs a kitchen knife from Tony's. She cuts a strip of tape and wraps it around Caylee's head to stop the flow. After doing this she tosses the tape and knife into the car. Note...I am not saying pings near JBP indicate she did the taping there. I think this was simple - the parking lot is quiet this time of day. No need to drive out of the way for this.

Note that taping the mouth fixes the decomp date of the stain as 3 days after death. Also note that the bag from Tony's is the one eventually found at the tow yard. KC was so freaked by the fluids that she never went to the dumpster.

June 20

KC knows she needs to get the body out of the trunk, but the bag and trunk liner are soaked. She drives back to the grandparent's and grabs a trash bag, in which she places the laundry bag. On some level she knows this is not "right"...so she gets Caylee's Pooh blankie and puts that in the bag. Maybe a favorite toy horse she has clutched recently is spotted and she grabs that as well. These are put in the bag with Caylee. KC wants to kiss her daughter goodbye, but cannot bring herself to do so. Instead, she places a heart sticker on her cheek or lips, which are covered by duct tape (the warrant does not say where the tape was).

KC then drives up to Suburban and quickly dumps the body.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 02:59 AM
Bond
Unless KC was at the A's when she bagged the body, why would she drive to the A's to dump it?
High risk of her family and friends seeing her.

The fact that the body was dumped where it was dumped is very compelling evidence in itself that it was bagged up at the A's and dumped as she was leaving at that time or, at a pinch at a later visit to the A's.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 03:09 AM
JWG
You lost me when you assumed merely taping the mouth would stop the ADD clock.

JWG
01-25-2009, 03:14 AM
JWG
You lost me when you assumed merely taping the mouth would stop the ADD clock.

The "ADD clock" is really the "age" of the fluids in the trunk liner. Anything that prevents leaking fluids from the body to make contact with the trunk liner "stops" the ADD clock.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 03:20 AM
I liked a lot of what Bond put forward yesterday. The likely use of Lee's house etc. I am just trying to avoid transfering the body to another vehicle, or trying to play amateur mortician on the side of the road.
I think that the dump site was "chosen" solely because it was near where KC was with this problem. She drove there from the A's whatever happened before that.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 03:28 AM
The "ADD clock" is really the "age" of the fluids in the trunk liner. Anything that prevents leaking fluids from the body to make contact with the trunk liner "stops" the ADD clock.
I think fluids would be leaking from a variety of orifices.

Irish_Eyes
01-25-2009, 03:33 AM
Here is yet another theory of mine, pulling bits and pieces out of old ones and sprinkling in some new details (discarding old, stale details that did not work, of course).

June 16

George sees KC and Caylee leave just before 1:00PM. Caylee is alive and walking under her own power, IMHO. There are three possible places they go: Kristina's, the elementary school playground, or Lee's. I am guessing Lee's - he's at work.

KC tries to get Caylee to go down for her nap, but she isn't ready. Tony calls and they talk for nearly 15 minutes. After the call KC still can't get Caylee to go to sleep, so she gets frustrated and medicates her with children's cold medicine, maybe Benedryl. KC has been doing this now periodically for nearly a month since Caylee had her cold in mid-May.

Caylee konks out around 1:40, and KC can finally have some peace. She dials up Amy and launches into a 36 minute call with her. They discuss boys, partying, gossip...Amy mentions some stuff on Facebook and MySpace, but KC is not on a computer. KC has to see this stuff, so she throws her stuff back into the car, puts a sleeping Caylee in the car seat, and drives back to the Anthony's - never getting of the phone. They arrive right around 2:00 with George safely gone.

KC grabs a couple things and takes them in, and intends to return immediately for Caylee...but something Amy says causes her to go fire up the computer and start surfing. More gossip, laughs, chit-chat. Call ends around 2:15.

At this point she is into it. She's surfing her friend's Facebook and MySpace pages, catching up on what they are up to, posting on their wall, commenting on photos, checks out the club events for the coming weekend, reads the latest celebrity gossip, maybe even fires up an internet chat with a friend.

Jesse calls around 2:53 and they talk about KC's problems at home, her moving out...a deep conversation that is interrupted by a call from George just after 3:00. He's spoken with Cindy, and they are in agreement: No staying overnight with the nanny. Both she and Caylee need to come home no matter how late KC's event runs.

Caylee...

She's just spent the last hour in the car with temps just above 90 outside. KC unstraps her from the car seat and brings her in, hoping to revive her, but it is already pretty obvious. She's been dead for more than a few minutes. The A/C never really cooled the car off during the short drive over from Lee's, and it did not take long for the car to go above 120 F once it was turned off. KC's mom was right - she's an unfit mother.

KC paces around not knowing what to do. The narcissist inside knows she needs to leave, and with Caylee. She calls Tony and tells him she is free for the evening...can she come over for the night? Tony readily agrees.

KC grabs the laundry bag and puts Caylee in it. She carries this to the car and puts it in the trunk. She packs for herself a couple of items, not really planning ahead beyond the coming eveing. Then she drives up to Tony's.

June 17

KC drives to her parent's home and backs into the garage. She opens the trunk and contemplates what to do next. Nothing really comes to mind. She tries moving the body and notices how stiff it is - no longer a cuddly girl. She is surprised at this and closes the trunk, goes inside to get more clothing for another night at Tony's, and leaves.

June 18

A return trip to the Anthony home, this time with a plan of what to do with Caylee: she will bury her in the yard. Unfortunately, she cannot get into the shed, so like any forward-thinker out there who wants to keep tracks covered, she goes to the neighbor and asks to borrow a shovel. :rolleyes: She moves the body to the back yard near a possible grave site. Digging even a shallow grave soon proves to be a daunting task, so KC rinses the shovel and returns it to the neighbor. Caylee goes back into the trunk and they return to Tony's.

June 19

She and Tony plan to meet with Matt C. late in the afternoon to look at an apartment. Prior to that meeting KC is cleaning Tony's apartment and around 3:00PM decides to take the garbage out on her way to Target or someplace like that. She opens the trunk and as she tosses the bag in she notices a stain on the liner under Caylee's laundry bag, and an unpleasant odor. She opens the bag to see where the stain is coming from and sees that fluid has been leaking from Caylee's mouth. Unbeknownst to KC, the movement of the body on the previous day accellerated the process of causing fluids to leak from the body.

This discovery surprises and horrifies Casey. Her first thought is to stop the fluid from coming out of Caylee's mouth. She recalls having Amy's duct tape in her car and pulls the roll out. From past experience she knows she cannot tear it well with her hands, so she runs inside and grabs a kitchen knife from Tony's. She cuts a strip of tape and wraps it around Caylee's head to stop the flow. After doing this she tosses the tape and knife into the car. Note...I am not saying pings near JBP indicate she did the taping there. I think this was simple - the parking lot is quiet this time of day. No need to drive out of the way for this.

Note that taping the mouth fixes the decomp date of the stain as 3 days after death. Also note that the bag from Tony's is the one eventually found at the tow yard. KC was so freaked by the fluids that she never went to the dumpster.

June 20

KC knows she needs to get the body out of the trunk, but the bag and trunk liner are soaked. She drives back to the grandparent's and grabs a trash bag, in which she places the laundry bag. On some level she knows this is not "right"...so she gets Caylee's Pooh blankie and puts that in the bag. Maybe a favorite toy horse she has clutched recently is spotted and she grabs that as well. These are put in the bag with Caylee. KC wants to kiss her daughter goodbye, but cannot bring herself to do so. Instead, she places a heart sticker on her cheek or lips, which are covered by duct tape (the warrant does not say where the tape was).

KC then drives up to Suburban and quickly dumps the body.

Wow...this is realistic and logical (for KC, at least)...

This explains away half my problem with the accident theory, which has been that if a child has an accident in the home, drowns, etc., the parent responds by calling 911...however, if KC's drugging Caylee caused said accident, that might be enough for her to feel she had to cover it up....

However, the other nagging doubt I've had about the accident theory is the partying, etc., and the utter lack of emotion or remorse....I still have a hard time gelling this aspect with an accident....

Regarding the duct tape, I just have to wonder, if it's ear to ear and in the hair as has been posted, I'm wondering if it was applied post mortem to keep her jaw in place? Perhaps when she was trying to move Caylee to get her in the bag her jaw was slack, and KC couldn't take looking at her like that...so she puts the duct tape from ear to ear around the jaw to hold her mouth closed (same could apply in your scenario also JWG...however possibly the mouth still leaked and that's when the tape on the mouth and the sticker?)

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 03:49 AM
Thinking some more. If KC finally bagged the body in garbage bag on the 20th she may have thought her problem was largely over or at least "well contained" She may well have continued driving around with the bagged body in the trunk thinking that the smell would now soon go. But it didn't! That could be why she returned on 23rd and 24th.

Irish_Eyes
01-25-2009, 04:06 AM
My guess with NO scientific background to back it up! If the body was in the bag laying on top of the wet stain, as the trunk heated the liquids would only condense on the bottom of the bag laying over it, or not at all and this is what kept the smell down when the body was in the car...however when the body was removed, the condensation/evaporation was more widespread, making it more noticeable? Perhaps the pants were originally in the trunk, and for this reason, maybe they didn't smell as much when she took them out, or maybe she just assumed it was the body that smelled and not the pants...then she throws the pants in the backseat after cleaning out the trunk...maybe her hands are dirty and she uses the pants to wipe them off? Next time she gets into her car (say after the weekend, assuming she doesn't drive or TonE drives on the weekend), that's when her car and trunk smell becomes much more noticeable and that's when she sends Amy the text...still doesn't explain why George smells nothing but who knows? With all the attention paid to gasoline in the forensics I have wondered if she poured gas on the stain trying to douse the smell and ended up making it worse...maybe George just smells gas, which he is expecting to smell since she is giving him the gas cans?

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 04:09 AM
I liked a lot of what Bond put forward yesterday. The likely use of Lee's house etc. I am just trying to avoid transfering the body to another vehicle, or trying to play amateur mortician on the side of the road.
I think that the dump site was "chosen" solely because it was near where KC was with this problem. She drove there from the A's whatever happened before that.

...I didn't put the hybrids of the two in there, which would've been Example C and D.

Example C: T.O.D. 3PM 6/16 w/ Casey bagging between 3:07PM-3:57PM Thursday 6/19, then, disposing on her 6/20PM return to G&C's. This is the theory I'd been parked on for some time prior to observing the "flurry" behavior of 6/9 and 6/16...leading me to believe Casey was compelled to call for Caylee-Care as late as 6:30-7:20PM in the same rapid-fire fashion as before. If Caylee died before 6:30PM I cannot come up w/ a reason Casey would repeat this behavior. If it was going to be a "We won't be home" message she would have been content to leave that as a vmail. She didn't...she fired off 4 calls to Cindy in under 3 mins @ 6:30PM.

Example D: T.O.D. 7:20PM 6/16 => bagging 6/19 ~7:30 => disposal on her 6/20PM return trip to G&C's.

Example D kinda makes sense to your point...we are talkin' Casey after all. She doesn't go out of her way. BTW...the Jeep doesn't have to be involved in any of these examples.

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 04:16 AM
Thinking some more. If KC finally bagged the body in garbage bag on the 20th she may have thought her problem was largely over or at least "well contained" She may well have continued driving around with the bagged body in the trunk thinking that the smell would now soon go. But it didn't! That could be why she returned on 23rd and 24th.

I contend that Casey would NOT have called Tony for help when she ran out of gas if the body was still in the trunk on 6/23. This is my primary reason for suggesting the body was out before this date. The other consideration is that disposal on/prior to 6/20 would, perhaps, support Casey's partying her a$$ off @ Fusian that night...relieved she was rid of the body and not caught....yet.

JWG has observed that Casey pulled into the driveway @ G&C's when she was caught by George on 6/24. That she didn't back in indicates that she was done w/ whatever manipulation she intended regarding the body.

Still...both of these points could be incorrect, and, if you buy what I put forth regarding "the chase" on 6/29, being Casey in Tony's Jeep that morning...then...Casey could've borrowed Tony's Jeep to get the body outta the Pontiac trunk 6/29AM @ Amscot taking it to Suburban Dr. for disposal that morning - where she is spotted upon exiting toward Chickasaw by George...and the chase begins. I don't think this is what happened, but I toss it out there just to recognize that there are plenty of permutations we could go through until we have more facts to discount one or the other.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 04:29 AM
Bond
I still DO NOT like any of the theories involving bagging on the 19th because it had to be done on the side of the road and not at the A's.
1. Risk of being caught doing it and 2. No reason to then drive to the A's to dump.
I like the date and the times and all that, but I can not get away from the fact that she dumped the body down the road from where she had the problem.

23rd could have already dumped the body,THEN ran out of gas. Stupid? That's believable.

I was aware of driving in on 24th and not backing. Simple again. She already had the body bagged up and ready to go! She was not intending to do anything with it there this trip. God knows why she called in? More clothes, a sandwich?

PS 23rd and 24th not deal breakers for me. I can accept dumping body on 20th as soon as it was bagged and ready.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 04:53 AM
Bond

I never heard and certainly didn't think my self about retreiving the body from the pontiac 29th. I'll keep it in the back of my mind.
It does not interfer with my (or your) scenario of bagging date PROVIDED... a plastic garbage bag, with normal sealing is sufficient to contain decomposition fluids AND GASES for 9/10 days!? I have my doubts. Even with a bag with absolutely no holes, and a good seal, I think gases may leech through the plastic itself over that time?

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 05:03 AM
Bond
I still DO NOT like any of the theories involving bagging on the 19th because it had to be done on the side of the road and not at the A's.
1. Risk of being caught doing it and 2. No reason to then drive to the A's to dump.
I like the date and the times and all that, but I can not get away from the fact that she dumped the body down the road from where she had the problem.

23rd could have already dumped the body,THEN ran out of gas. Stupid? That's believable.

I was aware of driving in on 24th and not backing. Simple again. She already had the body bagged up and ready to go! She was not intending to do anything with it there this trip. God knows why she called in? More clothes, a sandwich?

PS 23rd and 24th not deal breakers for me. I can accept dumping body on 20th as soon as it was bagged and ready.

I certainly understand your line of thinking...and that's all good. :)

FWIW, recall, the body is already inside a hamper bag...not visible. For this reason, I'm not as concerned as you are about being seen putting one bag into another in a secluded corner of Tony's Apt. parking lot...or at the end of some secluded street north of JB Park...depending on which timeframe you work on. IMHO, the odor is the concern @ this point, hence, a reasonable distance from passersby is her main requirement.

I'm liking Example D...the xfer in the sundown-twilight hours of 7/19PM in Tony's Apt. parking lot to set-up 6/20 disposal.

Regarding why dispose on Suburban...I can't quote the statistics, but, I believe this is the sad 'norm' in these cases. Disposals close to home for psychological reasons. And, if you go w/ an in-the-trunk o.d. scenario...then, the acute 'problem' occurred near Tony's apt....unless you're referring to the chronic 'problem', which I understand. Otherwise, you hafta go with one of the died-@-G&C scenarios to tie acute & chronic to this disposal site selection.

txsvicki
01-25-2009, 05:11 AM
Until they say differently at the trial, I don't believe that Casey drove around with Caylee in the trunk for 2.5 days because there was dirt found in the trunk. I think Caylee was probably sedated with an ambien to knock her out good and quick, within 15 minutes then placed in the trunk to be chloroformed/and or suffocated with something that would displace the oxygen in the sealed trunk and in the body. She probably expired within 30 minutes and lost body fluids. I'm just going by the evidence found, especially the high levels of chloroform, and the timeline that didn't give a lot of time to do things. She planned ahead and did it all within 45 minutes or even less. I believe Caylee was buried in loose soil beside the pool and the pool box placed on top until Casey transferred her back to the trunk for a quick drive down the street to the disposal site.

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 05:13 AM
Bond

I never heard and certainly didn't think my self about retreiving the body from the pontiac 29th. I'll keep it in the back of my mind.
It does not interfer with my (or your) scenario of bagging date PROVIDED... a plastic garbage bag, with normal sealing is sufficient to contain decomposition fluids AND GASES for 9/10 days!? I have my doubts. Even with a bag with absolutely no holes, and a good seal, I think gases may leech through the plastic itself over that time?

FWIW, I'm no longer scouring through released information, but, IIRC, it was reported that the bag was not sealed w/ duct tape as had been widely speculated. If this was a drawstring bag...well, then...

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 05:21 AM
Bond

More guessing: the stats about bodies close to home probably due to the fact that home is where the dirty deed takes place. I still think going back just to dump the body less likely?
Since we both agree KC was messing about with a body in the back yard, it seems likely when she decided to give up on that and dump the body she would have bagged it?

Then again perhaps the Nanny did it?

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 05:37 AM
Until they say differently at the trial, I don't believe that Casey drove around with Caylee in the trunk for 2.5 days because there was dirt found in the trunk. I think Caylee was probably sedated with an ambien to knock her out good and quick, within 15 minutes then placed in the trunk to be chloroformed/and or suffocated with something that would displace the oxygen in the sealed trunk and in the body. She probably expired within 30 minutes and lost body fluids. I'm just going by the evidence found, especially the high levels of chloroform, and the timeline that didn't give a lot of time to do things. She planned ahead and did it all within 45 minutes or even less. I believe Caylee was buried in loose soil beside the pool and the pool box placed on top until Casey transferred her back to the trunk for a quick drive down the street to the disposal site.

Let me get this straight, (sorry, a little thick on this issue) the decomposition test results don't tell us that Caylee was actually in the trunk for 2.5 or 2.6 days, whatever it was, it simply tells us that the stage/phase into the decomposition process was 2.5 or 2.6 days, is that correct? I need to go back and read whatever info was released around that time (when the evidence came out) because it seems to me that it was reported from the get go that Casey had driven around with Caylee dead in the trunk for two and a half days...maybe it's just me and I heard it all wrong all along....

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 05:59 AM
This is a test post. Having problems posting here.

JBean
01-25-2009, 06:00 AM
This is a test post. Having problems posting here.
lets see how are we doing now?

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 06:04 AM
There it is! Thank you JBean! :blowkiss:

natsound
01-25-2009, 09:37 AM
That's what I remembered too, but some were talking about using it on the duct tape.....I don't think that would work too,good....:confused:

I'm confused about the knife, and really all the items in the car. CA and GA took it from the tow yard so they had their hands on the knife, the backpack, and everything else. So they handed all of this stuff over to LE, and now LE has it in evidence? We can't be sure CA gave LE the correct knife.

natsound
01-25-2009, 09:40 AM
Let me get this straight, (sorry, a little thick on this issue) the decomposition test results don't tell us that Caylee was actually in the trunk for 2.5 or 2.6 days, whatever it was, it simply tells us that the stage/phase into the decomposition process was 2.5 or 2.6 days, is that correct? I need to go back and read whatever info was released around that time (when the evidence came out) because it seems to me that it was reported from the get go that Casey had driven around with Caylee dead in the trunk for two and a half days...maybe it's just me and I heard it all wrong all along....

I can only tell you that it's never been reported that KC drove around with a dead body in the trunk for 2.6 days.. it's all speculation and guessing. The decomp event in the trunk was charted at 2.6 days.

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 09:47 AM
I can only tell you that it's never been reported that KC drove around with a dead body in the trunk for 2.6 days.. it's all speculation and guessing. The decomp event in the trunk was charted at 2.6 days.

Thank you natsound, I appreciate you clearing that up for me. :)

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm confused about the knife, and really all the items in the car. CA and GA took it from the tow yard so they had their hands on the knife, the backpack, and everything else. So they handed all of this stuff over to LE, and now LE has it in evidence? We can't be sure CA gave LE the correct knife.

Nope, we can't. I'm sure LE realized that after learning about the "hairbrush incident", if not sooner. So as far as I'm concerned everything alledged to have been in the car and handed over by CA should be disregarded. It doesn't mean squat. MOO

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 10:34 AM
I think you are exactly right about the DC wanting to move the body to that house!!!! What has ever happened to the investigation of him?

IMO, it's still pending. I think they have a lot to sort through and are getting ready to question some people involved in it. They want to have a lot of facts to make sure their stories add up before they question them.


I think fluids would be leaking from a variety of orifices.

I have a very hard time believing KC would touch the body with fluids leaking out. JMO.

I also have a problem rectifying the cadaver dogs not hitting on a body when they went through that area originally.

Eyewitness testimony is the weakest testimony to take seriously but I wonder if the sightings near the airport of two people were true and then the body was moved when they learned that that area was probably going to be searched. They decided to move the body to a place that had already been gone over by the dogs. :waitasec:

Not sure it fits the timeline but just a thought.

nomoresorrow
01-25-2009, 10:46 AM
(Bold by me)

IMO, it's still pending. I think they have a lot to sort through and are getting ready to question some people involved in it. They want to have a lot of facts to make sure their stories add up before they question them.



I have a very hard time believing KC would touch the body with fluids leaking out. JMO.

I also have a problem rectifying the cadaver dogs not hitting on a body when they went through that area originally.Eyewitness testimony is the weakest testimony to take seriously but I wonder if the sightings near the airport of two people were true and then the body was moved when they learned that that area was probably going to be searched. They decided to move the body to a place that had already been gone over by the dogs. :waitasec:

Not sure it fits the timeline but just a thought.

I don't recall LE clearing that particular area with cadaver dogs, do you have a link to that? TIA.

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 11:06 AM
(Bold by me)


I don't recall LE clearing that particular area with cadaver dogs, do you have a link to that? TIA.

It's the sixth video down. (http://www.rosespeaks.com/rose-blog/tag/caylee-anthony/) A video from the GVS show.

So how did this one time bounty hunter “know” what eluded search parties for months? We know from Fox Noise’s own video that area was not under water when Kronk called, he saw something white under the bag that made him call, so how was it EVERYONE else involved in the search screwed up? Tim Miller’s Texas EquuSearch is famous for its recovery searches and they, every one of them, missed it. Why didn’t the smell of a decomposing body, attract the cadaver dogs in previous searches? The body was not buried; it was in plain site if Klonk is to be believed and less then ten feet from the road. So what happened to the highly trained cadaver dogs to miss the remains during previous extensive searches?

They mention, in the video, that the body may have recently been moved there. IIRC, LE said the body had been there for some time which is how I formed my theory. :cow:

JWG
01-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I think fluids would be leaking from a variety of orifices.

Yes, you are right, and I read probably more than I should have about that last night before I made my post.:sick: Writing about this, too, I find myself having to forcefully prevent myself from thinking about the victim...wonder if that is what a medical examiner goes through on a daily basis :frown:.

But...trying the think like KC here, and make some assumptions about what she knows and does not know...

If I were KC and I pop the trunk at AL's to put the full trash bag inside and I see a big, fresh stain on the laundry bag and trunk liner, my first reaction would be...WTF!?!? I take a quick look inside the bag and see that fluids have been leaking from the mouth. The little light bulb in KC's head (perhaps more like a birthday candle) says "ah-ha" - that's the problem. And she comes up with a solution. I don't think KC would have done a thorough examination and made sure she'd covered all bases. She sees one problem and "solves" one problem.

Certainly flaws and loopholes here. If fluid was coming from elsewhere - a real possibility - then the duct tape on the mouth would not have stopped the ADD clock. But, it could have.

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 11:12 AM
Here is yet another theory of mine, pulling bits and pieces out of old ones and sprinkling in some new details (discarding old, stale details that did not work, of course).

June 16

George sees KC and Caylee leave just before 1:00PM. Caylee is alive and walking under her own power, IMHO. There are three possible places they go: Kristina's, the elementary school playground, or Lee's. I am guessing Lee's - he's at work.

KC tries to get Caylee to go down for her nap, but she isn't ready. Tony calls and they talk for nearly 15 minutes. After the call KC still can't get Caylee to go to sleep, so she gets frustrated and medicates her with children's cold medicine, maybe Benedryl. KC has been doing this now periodically for nearly a month since Caylee had her cold in mid-May.

Caylee konks out around 1:40, and KC can finally have some peace. She dials up Amy and launches into a 36 minute call with her. They discuss boys, partying, gossip...Amy mentions some stuff on Facebook and MySpace, but KC is not on a computer. KC has to see this stuff, so she throws her stuff back into the car, puts a sleeping Caylee in the car seat, and drives back to the Anthony's - never getting of the phone. They arrive right around 2:00 with George safely gone.

KC grabs a couple things and takes them in, and intends to return immediately for Caylee...but something Amy says causes her to go fire up the computer and start surfing. More gossip, laughs, chit-chat. Call ends around 2:15.

At this point she is into it. She's surfing her friend's Facebook and MySpace pages, catching up on what they are up to, posting on their wall, commenting on photos, checks out the club events for the coming weekend, reads the latest celebrity gossip, maybe even fires up an internet chat with a friend.

Jesse calls around 2:53 and they talk about KC's problems at home, her moving out...a deep conversation that is interrupted by a call from George just after 3:00. He's spoken with Cindy, and they are in agreement: No staying overnight with the nanny. Both she and Caylee need to come home no matter how late KC's event runs.

Caylee...

She's just spent the last hour in the car with temps just above 90 outside. KC unstraps her from the car seat and brings her in, hoping to revive her, but it is already pretty obvious. She's been dead for more than a few minutes. The A/C never really cooled the car off during the short drive over from Lee's, and it did not take long for the car to go above 120 F once it was turned off. KC's mom was right - she's an unfit mother.

KC paces around not knowing what to do. The narcissist inside knows she needs to leave, and with Caylee. She calls Tony and tells him she is free for the evening...can she come over for the night? Tony readily agrees.

KC grabs the laundry bag and puts Caylee in it. She carries this to the car and puts it in the trunk. She packs for herself a couple of items, not really planning ahead beyond the coming eveing. Then she drives up to Tony's.

June 17

KC drives to her parent's home and backs into the garage. She opens the trunk and contemplates what to do next. Nothing really comes to mind. She tries moving the body and notices how stiff it is - no longer a cuddly girl. She is surprised at this and closes the trunk, goes inside to get more clothing for another night at Tony's, and leaves.

June 18

A return trip to the Anthony home, this time with a plan of what to do with Caylee: she will bury her in the yard. Unfortunately, she cannot get into the shed, so like any forward-thinker out there who wants to keep tracks covered, she goes to the neighbor and asks to borrow a shovel. :rolleyes: She moves the body to the back yard near a possible grave site. Digging even a shallow grave soon proves to be a daunting task, so KC rinses the shovel and returns it to the neighbor. Caylee goes back into the trunk and they return to Tony's. I think she formulated her plan her about using Zenaida "Zanny" the babysitter as a kidnapper. And put the tape on her mouth and across her hair. She added the heart sticker as a kiss... but she also could say that the kidnapper put it there as a signature mark.

June 19

She and Tony plan to meet with Matt C. late in the afternoon to look at an apartment. Prior to that meeting KC is cleaning Tony's apartment and around 3:00PM decides to take the garbage out on her way to Target or someplace like that. She opens the trunk and as she tosses the bag in she notices a stain on the liner under Caylee's laundry bag, and an unpleasant odor. She opens the bag to see where the stain is coming from and sees that fluid has been leaking from Caylee's mouth. Unbeknownst to KC, the movement of the body on the previous day accellerated the process of causing fluids to leak from the body.

This discovery surprises and horrifies Casey. Her first thought is to stop the fluid from coming out of Caylee's mouth. She recalls having Amy's duct tape in her car and pulls the roll out. From past experience she knows she cannot tear it well with her hands, so she runs inside and grabs a kitchen knife from Tony's. She cuts a strip of tape and wraps it around Caylee's head to stop the flow. After doing this she tosses the tape and knife into the car. Note...I am not saying pings near JBP indicate she did the taping there. I think this was simple - the parking lot is quiet this time of day. No need to drive out of the way for this.

Note that taping the mouth fixes the decomp date of the stain as 3 days after death. Also note that the bag from Tony's is the one eventually found at the tow yard. KC was so freaked by the fluids that she never went to the dumpster.

June 20

KC knows she needs to get the body out of the trunk, but the bag and trunk liner are soaked. She drives back to the grandparent's and grabs a trash bag, in which she places the laundry bag. On some level she knows this is not "right"...so she gets Caylee's Pooh blankie and puts that in the bag. Maybe a favorite toy horse she has clutched recently is spotted and she grabs that as well. These are put in the bag with Caylee. KC wants to kiss her daughter goodbye, but cannot bring herself to do so. Instead, she places a heart sticker on her cheek or lips, which are covered by duct tape (the warrant does not say where the tape was).

KC then drives up to Suburban and quickly dumps the body.

See my notes in red above... I would buy this scenario as a juror UNLESS they find forensic evidence that shows she made, purchased or a container that hold chloroform. I would by Bond's theory if it shows her back at the house bagging the body. I just do not see Casey using duct tape to cover the mouth from fluid drainage. I think she already formulated the theory of the babysitter kidnapping because.... she went on a huge campaign to her new friends and mom...to let them know Caylee was with a sitter at the beach, at Universal, in a car accident, known her for years. I think she was only able to go out and party on the 20th because she dumped the body on the 19th or 20th and formulated her babysitter kidnapping story and "staged the kidnapping". It was all sown up in her mind. "I can go party now... Caylee is at the nanny's." JG statement that Casey would tell herself and make up a lie and then believe it supports this.

It's Not the Nanny
01-25-2009, 11:14 AM
JWG - I like your theory on dying in the carseat -- makes a lot of sense! My question for you is would there be any forensic evidence left on the carseat? (of course, maybe they haven't released the carseat information).

Bond - Regarding the repeat of flurry of calls on 6/16..... maybe KC was covering her tracks so to speak and knew Cyndi would be expecting them home and she was trying to smooth things over there with her stories about not coming home that night. KC was taking this one day/one hour at a time. Since she wasn't going home that night and Cyndi was expecting her to be there, I think the flurry in your examples would just be KC setting up her alibi for the night.....then we get the day to day beach, Sea World, Hard Rock hotel, Zanny's accident stories as each passing day went on. This was day 1 without Caylee.

FWIW, I think Caylee died at G & C's on the afternoon of the 16th (not sure how!) and *immediately* put in laundry bag and thrown into the trunk. Once KC noticed the stain and fluids coming out, she went to the secluded corner of her back yard and placed Caylee in the trashbag on one of her returns to the G&C's and immediately dumped on Suburban on her way out of the neighborhood -- all before Fusion Friday. Her last trip G&C's was to clean out the trunk.

I think she used the Bissel carpet cleaner and dumped the water in the backyard somewhere which caused a different hit by the dogs.

I want to believe it was an accident (like heat stroke in the car, drowning) but I can't get past the computer searches and her life and lies coming to a head and the fact that she believed she needed to be free from her responsibilities..... top that with duct tape ear to ear and in the hair with a heart sticker and it makes me feel this was totally and completely planned.

1 - Caylee was talking and telling G&C there was no Zanny

2 - KC had a new boyfriend that liked to go out and party

3 - Cyndi was not allowing KC to stay out all night with Caylee and pressuring her to stay home

4 - KC had a new "job" as promoter/shot girl manager at Fusion for the weekend and because of her deteriorating relationship with her parents, she didn't have a babysitter

5 - Caylee was a 2 year old requiring much more attention and probably becoming more difficult to deal with (terrible 2's).

6 - It was becoming harder to come up with lies about "work" and no money...KC was tired of the game.

7 - KC felt Cyndi and George loved Caylee more than her

1+2+3+4+5+6+7 = KC felt like she needed to kill Caylee.

jon_burrows
01-25-2009, 11:24 AM
It's the sixth video down. (http://www.rosespeaks.com/rose-blog/tag/caylee-anthony/) A video from the GVS show.

So how did this one time bounty hunter “know” what eluded search parties for months? We know from Fox Noise’s own video that area was not under water when Kronk called, he saw something white under the bag that made him call, so how was it EVERYONE else involved in the search screwed up? Tim Miller’s Texas EquuSearch is famous for its recovery searches and they, every one of them, missed it. Why didn’t the smell of a decomposing body, attract the cadaver dogs in previous searches? The body was not buried; it was in plain site if Klonk is to be believed and less then ten feet from the road. So what happened to the highly trained cadaver dogs to miss the remains during previous extensive searches?

They mention, in the video, that the body may have recently been moved there. IIRC, LE said the body had been there for some time which is how I formed my theory. :cow:

I heard two 'medical' talking heads say that Caylee's body would have been skeletonized within ~2-3 weeks given the conditions. She wasn't reported missing for a month. By the time the searchers were on the scene there were only bones left. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it would smell at that point. If the cadaver dogs didn't search close enough to her body and the wind was blowing in another direction, I doubt the dogs would have found her.

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 11:28 AM
In addition to JWG and Bond's theories... I just wanted to ask?

Does anyone remember that on the Greta show that Cindy said the cadaver dogs hit in Caylee's room? But the released evidence does not state that...hmmm are we seeing a pattern with the prosecution that they are not releasing the items that are related to their case? Why would Cindy state that on national tv if the dogs did not hit there?


Annie's interview?
All cadaver dog hits?

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 11:30 AM
I heard two 'medical' talking heads say that Caylee's body would have been skeletonized within ~2-3 weeks given the conditions. She wasn't reported missing for a month. By the time the searchers were on the scene there were only bones left. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it would smell at that point. If the cadaver dogs didn't search close enough to her body and the wind was blowing in another direction, I doubt the dogs would have found her.

I'm 90% sure they would have hit on the body back then. The wind and stuff like that might have made it possible for them to miss but to the jurors it might cause some doubt about the body being there at the time.

passionflower
01-25-2009, 11:33 AM
IMO, I still think CAYLEE was killed out of rage from kc. Duct tape, knife, ME says 'intentional homecide'.........if it was someone else or an accident kc would be screaming out the truth by now......kc knows this will turn out as an evil act.
When we get the whole goulish story, we will be even more upset, MOO

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 11:33 AM
In addition to JWG and Bond's theories... I just wanted to ask?

Does anyone remember that on the Greta show that Cindy said the cadaver dogs hit in Caylee's room? But the released evidence does not state that...hmmm are we seeing a pattern with the prosecution that they are not releasing the items that are related to their case? Why would Cindy state that on national tv if the dogs did not hit there?


Annie's interview?
All cadaver dog hits?

LE keeps things back to help verify suspects stories. It's possible that's one of the things they're holding back but, if CA already said it publicly it kind of defeats the purpose.

Mysticj
01-25-2009, 11:40 AM
In addition to JWG and Bond's theories... I just wanted to ask?

Does anyone remember that on the Greta show that Cindy said the cadaver dogs hit in Caylee's room? But the released evidence does not state that...hmmm are we seeing a pattern with the prosecution that they are not releasing the items that are related to their case? Why would Cindy state that on national tv if the dogs did not hit there?


Annie's interview?
All cadaver dog hits?


This is not a pattern at all. The SA will not release anything sensitive to their case period.

stellasmommyphd
01-25-2009, 11:52 AM
I agree that Casey probably used Xanax (probably supplied by Annie) to put Caylee out and that is where the term Zanny the Nanny came from. That had been going on for a long time...



i have never understood the point of xanaxing the child. where could she leave her, xanaxed to sleep? not in the car--she'd overheat and/or be seen. not at home--then GA and CA would know. at her friends' place? what friends would think that was okay? :confused:

JWG
01-25-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm confused about the knife, and really all the items in the car. CA and GA took it from the tow yard so they had their hands on the knife, the backpack, and everything else. So they handed all of this stuff over to LE, and now LE has it in evidence? We can't be sure CA gave LE the correct knife.

Actually, I would be inclined to take just about anything Cindy said and did on the evening of July 15 and all day July 16 as truthful / factual.

LE wants to speak with witnesses to a crime as soon as possible after the crime because, in their heightened emotional state, they are more likely to give very useful information. Note Cindy's 911 calls and statements to co-workers - she was not at all holding back that she felt something had gone terribly wrong. From everything I read in the various evidence documents, she was quite cooperative with LE throughout the 16th.

I would say that the point where Cindy's unyielding cooperation ended was when LE arrested KC. At that point she realized where this was headed and her shields went up.

The contents of the car were turned over on the 16th before the arrest. Yes, I do believe she turned over the correct knife.

JWG
01-25-2009, 12:27 PM
i have never understood the point of xanaxing the child. where could she leave her, xanaxed to sleep? not in the car--she'd overheat and/or be seen. not at home--then GA and CA would know. at her friends' place? what friends would think that was okay? :confused:
Maybe she used Xanax, but I think over-the-counter cold medicine is more likely. And I don't think at all that she was leaving her in the car on purpose. On the 16th I think she was trying to get her to take a nap at Lee's. Something about her call with Amy made her want to get back to her parent's and on the computer. In the rush / activity to get back there, she left Caylee in the car and forgot about her.

Hot Dogs
01-25-2009, 12:39 PM
I took some duct tape from my garage this morn and compared the effort of cutting it with a dinner knife as opposed to tearing it. It was easier to tear it. Maybe KC didn't know this and thought she needed a knife, but thinking like a 22 year old girl, wouldn't she have grabbed scissors rather than a kitchen knife? Also I noticed that cutting with a knife would not leave a print on the sticky side of the tape still on the roll. To this juror, there is really not a needed correlation between the knife and the tape.


My roll of "Duck" brand duct tape is perforated about every 1/8". This is convenient because it doesn't require any cutting to remove a piece.

Mom of Five
01-25-2009, 12:57 PM
Ok, I just have to know. I'm not even going to debate it if you answer, but I have seen this over and over again, and I really am interested in how people are coming to these conclusions, so if you don't mind terribly, would you explain your reasoning behind why you think the duct tape was put on after death?
1.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to make it look like a kidnapping?
2.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to stop fluids from leaking out?
TIA
Lanie
Adding as a third question: What led you to believe the duct tape was applied after death, as opposed to before death?
I am interested in answers from ANYONE who has one or all of the above opinions.
TIA
Lanie


I think the tape was post mortem. I think the tape went ear to ear to cover the three orifices Casey thought fluids were leaking from. I think the sticker might have been applied the last time Casey looked at her, almost as an act of "kindness". Caylee probably loved stickers.

Marina2
01-25-2009, 01:20 PM
In addition to JWG and Bond's theories... I just wanted to ask?

Does anyone remember that on the Greta show that Cindy said the cadaver dogs hit in Caylee's room? But the released evidence does not state that...hmmm are we seeing a pattern with the prosecution that they are not releasing the items that are related to their case? Why would Cindy state that on national tv if the dogs did not hit there?


Annie's interview?
All cadaver dog hits?
I don't remember anything about the dogs hitting in Caylee's room. Is it true that she said that?

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 01:29 PM
I don't remember anything about the dogs hitting in Caylee's room. Is it true that she said that?

I will have to go back and listen to the GVS show. Do not have time now... Unless someone else finds it before me..:waitasec:

Marina2
01-25-2009, 01:55 PM
Snipped for content:

Regarding the repeat of flurry of calls on 6/16..... maybe KC was covering her tracks so to speak and knew Cyndi would be expecting them home and she was trying to smooth things over there with her stories about not coming home that night. KC was taking this one day/one hour at a time. Since she wasn't going home that night and Cyndi was expecting her to be there, I think the flurry in your examples would just be KC setting up her alibi for the night.....then we get the day to day beach, Sea World, Hard Rock hotel, Zanny's accident stories as each passing day went on. This was day 1 without Caylee.
I tend to regard the flurry of calls as a way to cover her tracks too.
My train of thought goes to how did CA get KC to stay home the night of the fight? It seems that KC would want to be anywhere but at her parent's home after a fight in which CA allegedly choked her. Instead, she stayed at the house regardless of the tension that must have been there.

I'm thinking that the only way CA had to make KC stay home was to tell her she would report the car stolen if she left in it or didn't return home with it. It's apparent that CA used this tactic when she wanted to make KC comply with her because that was her threat when she found KC. The next day, when CA was at work, KC did take the car and leave.

KC most certainly didn't want that car reported stolen if her child's body lie in the trunk deceased on the 16th. She didn't know if CA was still holding out on that threat. She may have smoothed it over with GA when she spoke with him at 3pm but still had to speak with CA to confirm that she was in the clear as far as having the car that night.

Marina2
01-25-2009, 01:58 PM
I will have to go back and listen to the GVS show. Do not have time now... Unless someone else finds it before me..:waitasec:
Thanks. I'll go check it out and see. I just didn't know if you were sure of this or if I should go and search for it.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 02:49 PM
Yes, you are right, and I read probably more than I should have about that last night before I made my post.:sick: Writing about this, too, I find myself having to forcefully prevent myself from thinking about the victim...wonder if that is what a medical examiner goes through on a daily basis :frown:.

But...trying the think like KC here, and make some assumptions about what she knows and does not know...

If I were KC and I pop the trunk at AL's to put the full trash bag inside and I see a big, fresh stain on the laundry bag and trunk liner, my first reaction would be...WTF!?!? I take a quick look inside the bag and see that fluids have been leaking from the mouth. The little light bulb in KC's head (perhaps more like a birthday candle) says "ah-ha" - that's the problem. And she comes up with a solution. I don't think KC would have done a thorough examination and made sure she'd covered all bases. She sees one problem and "solves" one problem.

Certainly flaws and loopholes here. If fluid was coming from elsewhere - a real possibility - then the duct tape on the mouth would not have stopped the ADD clock. But, it could have.
Sorry to harp on. I am as sure as I can be about anything in this case: Mouth tape alone would have no effect on ADD. I was even worried that experts might say that a sealed garbage bag would not be sufficient. That seems to have been conceded, but I am not totally convinced it would be an adequate containment of forensic evidence over several days.

natsound
01-25-2009, 03:52 PM
Yes, I do believe she turned over the correct knife.

snipped

But it was washed. Do you think CA just washed it without thinking? That's what I thought from the beginning.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 04:42 PM
snipped

But it was washed. Do you think CA just washed it without thinking? That's what I thought from the beginning.
I sort of agree with JWG that at that stage CA was trying to do the right thing to advance the investigation which was "missing child" at that stage. I do have some doubts though, about whether they did not even consider the smell etc as indicating a death?

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 04:54 PM
I sort of agree with JWG that at that stage CA was trying to do the right thing to advance the investigation which was "missing child" at that stage. I do have some doubts though, about whether they did not even consider the smell etc as indicating a death?

Also, JWG had figured at this point in the computer forensic's thread. That
at this point... Cindy would not have KNOWN that Caylee was missing

JWG
01-25-2009, 05:04 PM
snipped

But it was washed. Do you think CA just washed it without thinking? That's what I thought from the beginning.

Yes, I believe that. She was cleaning after all.

But, with that said, I could not find actual reference in any of the docs or interviews that the knife was cleaned, while I could find much discussion about the pants being cleaned.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 05:04 PM
Also, JWG had figured at this point in the computer forensic's thread. That
at this point... Cindy would not have KNOWN that Caylee was missing
CA knew Caylee was missing surely, as far as she was concerned, since 16th June.
I agree, CA did not know that Caylee was missing or misplaced by KC as well. CA still thought KC knew where Caylee was. I just think there is almost unbelievable denial not to even consider what the smell might mean, and just leave the car for the experts to look at?

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 05:11 PM
CA knew Caylee was missing surely, as far as she was concerned, since 16th June.
I agree, CA did not know that Caylee was missing or misplaced by KC as well. CA still thought KC knew where Caylee was. I just think there is almost unbelievable denial not to even consider what the smell might mean, and just leave the car for the experts to look at?

I agree. I should have stated at this point Cindy did not know that Casey did not have Caylee. She thought possibly that Caylee was with Casey or a "nanny."
There was either a unbelievable denial or unbelivable amount of anger that "Casey not only left the car unattended but left it dirty as well."

I am off to figure out if Cindy told GVS that there was a cadaver dog hit in Caylee's room. I think this could give credence to Caylee being killed at the house. Also it appears SA is not releasing certain interviews or data related to the case. If the dogs did not hit in the bedroom... Why would Cindy say that on TV? (if she did...)

JWG
01-25-2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry to harp on. I am as sure as I can be about anything in this case: Mouth tape alone would have no effect on ADD. I was even worried that experts might say that a sealed garbage bag would not be sufficient. That seems to have been conceded, but I am not totally convinced it would be an adequate containment of forensic evidence over several days.

No problem with harping. I love music.

The ADD was determined by measuring the composition of the off-gassing from the stain in the trunk. (Hate to speak about Caylee's condition here) The stain was due to fluids leaking from the body through either natural openings (the largest being the mouth) or breaks in the skin. It was probably - but not guaranteed - too early for breaks in the skin to appear. So duct tape over the mouth/nose stood a good chance of stemming most, if not all the flow for a short period of time, this being 24 hours.

eddeva
01-25-2009, 05:23 PM
I sort of agree with JWG that at that stage CA was trying to do the right thing to advance the investigation which was "missing child" at that stage. I do have some doubts though, about whether they did not even consider the smell etc as indicating a death?

unlike george and cindy i've smelled death only twice in my life, although i think even that is twice more than usual, and these instances were almost 20yrs apart.
the second time it happened i recognized the smell the instant i arrived, memories of the first time i smelled it flooded back to me. i was so sure that i knew what i was smelling that i ventured no further than the door, left the house and immedediately called the police.
i don't believe it's possible to confuse that smell w/ anything else and less possible not to recognise it, especially if it's something you've encountered as often as an ex cop and a nurse would.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 05:41 PM
No problem with harping. I love music.

The ADD was determined by measuring the composition of the off-gassing from the stain in the trunk. (Hate to speak about Caylee's condition here) The stain was due to fluids leaking from the body through either natural openings (the largest being the mouth) or breaks in the skin. It was probably - but not guaranteed - too early for breaks in the skin to appear. So duct tape over the mouth/nose stood a good chance of stemming most, if not all the flow for a short period of time, this being 24 hours.
Those of delicate disposition please scroll past!

Anus

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 05:47 PM
unlike george and cindy i've smelled death only twice in my life, although i think even that is twice more than usual, and these instances were almost 20yrs apart.
the second time it happened i recognized the smell the instant i arrived, memories of the first time i smelled it flooded back to me. i was so sure that i knew what i was smelling that i ventured no further than the door, left the house and immedediately called the police.
i don't believe it's possible to confuse that smell w/ anything else and less possible not to recognise it, especially if it's something you've encountered as often as an ex cop and a nurse would.
My kindest explanation is that KC's ploy of putting gabage in the trunk to explain where the smell originated actually worked. I do know both death smell and very smelly garbage smell. Very different, but a blast from very smelly garbage can be overwhelming. Whichever is the source you pull away and possibly assume the obvious apparent source that you can see?

essies
01-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Those of delicate disposition please scroll past!

Anus

Caylee was probably wearing pullups-of course, they would have become saturated and leaked out also. Nothing about pullups being found in the bag though. Sorry this is gross!:mad:

eddeva
01-25-2009, 05:54 PM
My kindest explanation is that KC's ploy of putting gabage in the trunk to explain where the smell originated actually worked. I do know both death smell and very smelly garbage smell. Very different, but a blast from very smelly garbage can be overwhelming. Whichever is the source you pull away and possibly assume the obvious apparent source that you can see?


i concede that it's possible, but unlikely in the extreme.
one day i'd love to see your less kind explanation hercule :)

eddeva
01-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Caylee was probably wearing pullups-of course, they would have become saturated and leaked out also. Nothing about pullups being found in the bag though. Sorry this is gross!:mad:

i thought there was mention of a diaper.
if i'm wrong please correct me.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 05:57 PM
Caylee was probably wearing pullups-of course, they would have become saturated and leaked out also. Nothing about pullups being found in the bag though. Sorry this is gross!:mad:
I think I'll stop now. I give in.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 06:01 PM
i concede that it's possible, but unlikely in the extreme.
one day i'd love to see your less kind explanation hercule :)
That explanation IS platted thru the threads. I still cut G & C a huge ammount of slack because of the horrendous situation, but no sympathy what so ever for KC. I saw CA as nuts from day one, but nuts is how she is.

essies
01-25-2009, 06:02 PM
i thought there was mention of a diaper.
if i'm wrong please correct me.

I remember diapers in the car-but i don't recall any in the bag. Maybe i'm wrong. And, I don't think they breakdown from the elements-at least that's what I've heard.:waitasec:

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 06:09 PM
I remember diapers in the car-but i don't recall any in the bag. Maybe i'm wrong. And, I don't think they breakdown from the elements-at least that's what I've heard.:waitasec:
No diaper mentioned at remains site, but I reiterate we have not been given a full inventory. Only told what they needed to tell to obtain a warrant. The reference to "pull-ups" was LE going back to evidence they already had from the car. More than likely that was to compare with what they found with or near the remains, but they have not come out and said that.

ibyoungr
01-25-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't remember anything about the dogs hitting in Caylee's room. Is it true that she said that?

Ok,,, I went back and could not find where she said that the dogs hit inside the house. I am going to review those again very closely and get what was said about the dog hits.

eddeva
01-25-2009, 06:25 PM
No diaper mentioned at remains site, but I reiterate we have not been given a full inventory. Only told what they needed to tell to obtain a warrant. The reference to "pull-ups" was LE going back to evidence they already had from the car. More than likely that was to compare with what they found with or near the remains, but they have not come out and said that.


this isn't where i first heard mention of the diapers/pull-ups but at 1min 50secs they report that investigators were at the house looking for flowered diapers like the ones found w/ caylee's remains. i know, never trust the media, i'm just :confused:

http://www.wftv.com/video/18533335/index.html

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Ok,,, I went back and could not find where she said that the dogs hit inside the house. I am going to review those again very closely and get what was said about the dog hits.
There is quite a lot about K-9's in doc dumps. Lots of description of what was found outside. No mention of inside. Also K-9 officer gave evidence at bond hearing. I'd love to find a transcript, but from memory no mention of inside the house. K-9 aloso gave evidence at GJ. No rumour about inside the house. If dogs have serched the house it would more likely be the later search warrants. and no mention there either.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 06:35 PM
this isn't where i first heard mention of the diapers/pull-ups but at 1min 50secs they report that investigators were at the house looking for flowered diapers like the ones found w/ caylee's remains. i know, never trust the media, i'm just :confused:

http://www.wftv.com/video/18533335/index.html
I've definately come to realise the media read the same docs we do and they make the same mistakes we do. On top of that we all reference each other and so the story grows.

jon_burrows
01-25-2009, 07:46 PM
I heard two 'medical' talking heads say that Caylee's body would have been skeletonized within ~2-3 weeks given the conditions. She wasn't reported missing for a month. By the time the searchers were on the scene there were only bones left. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it would smell at that point. If the cadaver dogs didn't search close enough to her body and the wind was blowing in another direction, I doubt the dogs would have found her.


I'm 90% sure they would have hit on the body back then. The wind and stuff like that might have made it possible for them to miss but to the jurors it might cause some doubt about the body being there at the time.

I think this is one subject that will be battled by the experts in court. I'm no cadaver dog expert but in the demonstrations that I've seen, the dogs don't just sniff in the air and run over to the spot where the cadaver scent was planted. The demonstration areas are very small and the dogs sniff several areas before they get to the right spot. The dogs are literally right on the spot before they give an alert. The heavily wooded area where Caylee's remains were found is quite large. I can easily see a cadaver dog missing the spot unless he was directed in close proximity to the skeletonized remains. I don't think anyone really knows if a cadaver dog was even remotely close enough to Caylee to alert on a scent.

Any cadaver dog experts on this board? If so, roughly how close do they have to be to smell skeletonized remains? How much does wind direction play in their ability to pick up a scent?

I agree about creating doubt. A shifty defense expert can certainly spin things and confuse a jury. After all, that's Lee's specialty, along with the rest of the scheme team.

BondJamesBond
01-25-2009, 08:21 PM
at this point... Cindy would not have KNOWN that Caylee was missing
*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

Nosey Parker
01-25-2009, 09:14 PM
Any cadaver dog experts on this board? If so, roughly how close do they have to be to smell skeletonized remains? How much does wind direction play in their ability to pick up a scent?

I agree about creating doubt. A shifty defense expert can certainly spin things and confuse a jury. After all, that's Lee's specialty, along with the rest of the scheme team.

I really don't consider myself an expert, but I do know a little about cadaver dogs. In answer to your question, it really depends on whether the dog is cross-trained for air scenting, ground scenting, etc. That's why Baez has made a motion for all reference to OCSO's cadaver dog and handler training. He would love to create reasonable doubt of their abilities.

Here is a good reference link for anyone that is interested. Sorry, I don't know the neat way to insert a link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9e-8rK3YUJkC&pg=PA160&dq=training+cadaver+dogs&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES

Scroll up to Chapter Twelve on Cadaver Dogs

debs
01-25-2009, 09:53 PM
*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

You know what ONE statement by Cindy Anthony that puzzles me? "I already gave you 31 days..."

Gave her? What did she give her that many days to do? Mention that Caylee was missing? Why would Cindy say that she GAVE Casey those days? What did Cindy do 31 days before making this utterance that implies GIVING Casey anything? Opportunity? "Hey mom. Caylee isn't where I left her! Someone took her!!!" Why would Cindy say she GAVE Casey those days to make that statement?

Steely Dan
01-25-2009, 10:22 PM
I really don't consider myself an expert, but I do know a little about cadaver dogs. In answer to your question, it really depends on whether the dog is cross-trained for air scenting, ground scenting, etc. That's why Baez has made a motion for all reference to OCSO's cadaver dog and handler training. He would love to create reasonable doubt of their abilities.

Here is a good reference link for anyone that is interested. Sorry, I don't know the neat way to insert a link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9e-8rK3YUJkC&pg=PA160&dq=training+cadaver+dogs&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES

Scroll down to Chapter Twelve on Cadaver Dogs

Thanks! :thumb:

JWG
01-25-2009, 10:43 PM
*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

suepitzl
01-25-2009, 11:13 PM
No problem with harping. I love music.

The ADD was determined by measuring the composition of the off-gassing from the stain in the trunk. (Hate to speak about Caylee's condition here) The stain was due to fluids leaking from the body through either natural openings (the largest being the mouth) or breaks in the skin. It was probably - but not guaranteed - too early for breaks in the skin to appear. So duct tape over the mouth/nose stood a good chance of stemming most, if not all the flow for a short period of time, this being 24 hours.
The duct tape was not broken, still found over the mouth/nose area

stellasmommyphd
01-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Maybe she used Xanax, but I think over-the-counter cold medicine is more likely. And I don't think at all that she was leaving her in the car on purpose. On the 16th I think she was trying to get her to take a nap at Lee's. Something about her call with Amy made her want to get back to her parent's and on the computer. In the rush / activity to get back there, she left Caylee in the car and forgot about her.

your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

JWG
01-25-2009, 11:21 PM
The duct tape was not broken, still found over the mouth/nose area

Hi Sue,

Not sure what you meant by the duct tape not being broken. I don't think I implied that...only referenced the possibility that the skin might be broken...

JWG
01-25-2009, 11:26 PM
your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

IMHO it would not be habitual, but more of a crutch. Over time, it would be more and more of a crutch.

I think KC discovered the wonders of cold medicine near the end of May when Caylee was sick with a cold (she caught from KC). She was still hanging out with Ricardo then and I think made the cold medicine comment to him about that time. My guess is she tried it once, twice after then when she had trouble getting Caylee to go down for a nap.

Rumpole
01-25-2009, 11:35 PM
your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!
I am a newcomer to incluing use of sedatives on Caylee. Not totally convinced yet. In support of that hypothesis, I think the use of drugs was a relatively new development. KC had been able to use a variety of sitters, but as caylee was getting older and requiring more attention, potenial sitters less available, and the new crowd of friends particularly AL where a child not so welcome. I think there may have been a very recent use or at least an increase in use.

marlap
01-26-2009, 01:18 AM
I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

JWG, I completely agree. Cindy didn't mean missing in a kidnap/criminal sense, she meant missing from my life.

Casey was talking to Cindy almost every day during that month and Casey kept promising to bring Caylee over and finking out.



You know what ONE statement by Cindy Anthony that puzzles me? "I already gave you 31 days..."

Gave her? What did she give her that many days to do? Mention that Caylee was missing? Why would Cindy say that she GAVE Casey those days? What did Cindy do 31 days before making this utterance that implies GIVING Casey anything? Opportunity? "Hey mom. Caylee isn't where I left her! Someone took her!!!" Why would Cindy say she GAVE Casey those days to make that statement?

Debs, I think Cindy meant I gave you 31 days to:
1) be away with Caylee;
2) independent;
3) out from under Cindy's thumb, etc.

I think she means I gave you as in I gave you this much time away before I have to see Caylee.

Steely Dan
01-26-2009, 01:37 AM
your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

There was a case here in Rochester where a woman who was running a day care center was giving the kids Benadryl every afternoon to keep them sleeping. She was charged and I believe convicted of the crime.

ibyoungr
01-26-2009, 01:41 AM
*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:


When I wrote that I amended it in another post later saying that Yes, Cindy did know that Caylee was "missing" from her life.
But at the time of cleaning out the car.... Cindy DID NOT know for certain Caylee was DEAD or that Casey may have killed her. Therefore, I do not believe Cindy cleaned out the car to protect Casey from the LE as Cindy had not yet called the police. As the last docs stated her co-workers told her to call the police and she refused. I do believe she was in a very high state of denial and still is.

ibyoungr
01-26-2009, 01:46 AM
I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

You are correct.. I was referring to your post from the computer forensics thread. I should have written my post as such.. instead of using the words "missing."

ibyoungr
01-26-2009, 01:53 AM
JWG, I completely agree. Cindy didn't mean missing in a kidnap/criminal sense, she meant missing from my life.

Casey was talking to Cindy almost every day during that month and Casey kept promising to bring Caylee over and finking out.




Debs, I think Cindy meant I gave you 31 days to:
1) be away with Caylee;
2) independent;
3) out from under Cindy's thumb, etc.

I think she means I gave you as in I gave you this much time away before I have to see Caylee.


That is how I took it.. In light of the last document dump, it sounds like during the first week of June, Cindy, Casey and Caylee were to take a trip to bond. Cindy took care of Caylee the entire time and did not get a call from Casey. Casey then took Caylee and Cindy was trying hard to let them have a go on there own. She did call and ask time and time again to see Caylee. I do believe Cindy would have called 911 alot sooner if it wasn't for the pack of lies Casey was telling her and her desire for Casey to "grow up" and start fending for herself. I think the 31 days was a reference to.. "I gave you 31 days to bring Caylee to visit."

gitana1
01-26-2009, 02:19 AM
How I think Caylee was killed is not a poll option, so I did not vote. I think casey knocked her out with chloroform and then either drowned or suffocated her. Chloroform was a way for casey not to have to watch Caylee struggle, or so she did not have to see Caylee's little, pleading eyes looking at her, as Caylee took her last breaths. casey also did not want a "scene" or a "mess". I think she wanted the quickest death possible with the smallest amount of awareness possible on the part of Caylee. IMO, no matter how she did it, she's an evil monster. Whatever she did most likely took longer than she thought (kids are somewhat resilient, it's not as easy to kill them as one would think, I believe) and she had to work to snuff out the life and light of her baby.

Rumpole
01-26-2009, 02:30 AM
How I think Caylee was killed is not a poll option, so I did not vote. I think casey knocked her out with chloroform and then either drowned or suffocated her. Chloroform was a way for casey not to have to watch Caylee struggle, or so she did not have to see Caylee's little, pleading eyes looking at her, as Caylee took her last breaths. casey also did not want a "scene" or a "mess". I think she wanted the quickest death possible with the smallest amount of awareness possible on the part of Caylee. IMO, no matter how she did it, she's an evil monster. Whatever she did most likely took longer than she thought (kids are somewhat resilient, it's not as easy to kill them as one would think, I believe) and she had to work to snuff out the life and light of her baby.
Is there really much evidence to say chloroform was involved?
JWG has said that the computer search was only fleeting, I think several items looked up in just a few minutes. No follow up. Nobody in the long list of players ever seen with chloroform that we know. KC never seen with any. No empty bottles found. The forensiics in the trunk are the best indication but not conclusive at all. Does anybody think that KC would make chloroform. I'd be very surprised if she could make coffee and she would still have to buy chemicals and have bottles and equipment. It's just not her.

Never4GetCaylee
01-26-2009, 03:03 AM
Is there really much evidence to say chloroform was involved? JWG has said that the computer search was only fleeting, I think several items looked up in just a few minutes. No follow up. Nobody in the long list of players ever seen with chloroform that we know. KC never seen with any. No empty bottles found. The forensiics in the trunk are the best indication but not conclusive at all. Does anybody think that KC would make chloroform. I'd be very surprised if she could make coffee and she would still have to buy chemicals and have bottles and equipment. It's just not her.

ITA. I think way too much is being made out of the chloroform. At the most I think maybe someone tried to use it to clean the trunk. Chloroform is a powerful cleaning agent, but I'm not even sure about that. I think it's a possibility if they levels detected are correct.

I still am having a hard time with premeditation. I don't believe KC's intent was to kill Caylee. I do think she caused her death, but it wasn't planned or her intention. I think it happened at the A's home. At the moment, I like the scenario of her leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car and "forgetting" about her. In the very beginning, when I first heard about this case, I thought KC either left Caylee in a car in the heat or Caylee drowned in the pool.

Rumpole
01-26-2009, 03:27 AM
ITA. I think way too much is being made out of the chloroform. At the most I think maybe someone tried to use it to clean the trunk. Chloroform is a powerful cleaning agent, but I'm not even sure about that. I think it's a possibility if they levels detected are correct.

I still am having a hard time with premeditation. I don't believe KC's intent was to kill Caylee. I do think she caused her death, but it wasn't planned or her intention. I think it happened at the A's home. At the moment, I like the scenario of her leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car and "forgetting" about her. In the very beginning, when I first heard about this case, I thought KC either left Caylee in a car in the heat or Caylee drowned in the pool.
Those who think that KC made chloroform should:

1. Look at KC. Too stupid. Too lazy. It requires some effort, other chemicals. Jars and containers. Extreme care with FLAMMABLE gases and toxic fumes. Clean up afterwards. Storage and I believe this product deteriorates within days, so you have to do it often. Else it requires major and focused planning just before it is required. That simply is not something KC could do in a million years.

2. Look at a recipe. The most common main ingredient and source of the chlorine to make up chloroform is household bleach. Don't you think the most obvious way that bleach would get into the trunk of KC's car is via Cindy and her cleaning efforts? With the trunk first soaked in bleach and the stain and smell still there, I am sure any number of solvent cleaners were tried and I almost guarantee that amongst the many chlorine compounds formed, Chloroform was one of them. It is no surprise that some Chloroform showed up in chemical analysis of the trunk.

natsound
01-26-2009, 08:11 AM
I sort of agree with JWG that at that stage CA was trying to do the right thing to advance the investigation which was "missing child" at that stage. I do have some doubts though, about whether they did not even consider the smell etc as indicating a death?


I think there's a good chance CA just didn't put two and two together with the smell, even though she said to 911 and to co-workers that it smelled like a dead body. We're not dealing with a rocket scientist here. Remember.. she was in denial or didn't know that her own daughter was pregnant, when everyone else around her did.. co-workers, her brother, etc. And by all accounts, she seemed to believe KC's story about the trip to the convention with Zani and the others. Or maybe she's just a really good actress.

CA must have an automatic trigger mechanism to file things in the "nope, no way" category when they strike her as fishy.

natsound
01-26-2009, 08:15 AM
ITA. I think way too much is being made out of the chloroform. At the most I think maybe someone tried to use it to clean the trunk. Chloroform is a powerful cleaning agent, but I'm not even sure about that. I think it's a possibility if they levels detected are correct.

I still am having a hard time with premeditation. I don't believe KC's intent was to kill Caylee. I do think she caused her death, but it wasn't planned or her intention. I think it happened at the A's home. At the moment, I like the scenario of her leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car and "forgetting" about her. In the very beginning, when I first heard about this case, I thought KC either left Caylee in a car in the heat or Caylee drowned in the pool.

Well, let's look at what the evidence tells us. Someone searched for chloroform on the computer, and it was found in the trunk. I've never heard a difinitive answer on whether it was an unusually high level of chloroform or not.. NG says it is, but the doc dump regarding the chloroform in the trunk didn't seem to indicate that.

I think KC searched chloroform, got her hands on some, used it on Caylee and it killed her.

publius
01-26-2009, 08:50 AM
Those who think that KC made chloroform should:

1. Look at KC. Too stupid. Too lazy. It requires some effort, other chemicals. Jars and containers. Extreme care with FLAMMABLE gases and toxic fumes. Clean up afterwards. Storage and I believe this product deteriorates within days, so you have to do it often. Else it requires major and focused planning just before it is required. That simply is not something KC could do in a million years.

2. Look at a recipe. The most common main ingredient and source of the chlorine to make up chloroform is household bleach. Don't you think the most obvious way that bleach would get into the trunk of KC's car is via Cindy and her cleaning efforts? With the trunk first soaked in bleach and the stain and smell still there, I am sure any number of solvent cleaners were tried and I almost guarantee that amongst the many chlorine compounds formed, Chloroform was one of them. It is no surprise that some Chloroform showed up in chemical analysis of the trunk.

You may be right, but LE was looking for it (and the chemicals to make it, etc.) in the Anthony home according to the search warrants... Why would they put that in there, specifically, if it wasn't an issue or part of this case? Clearly, they think something is up with it and they know a lot more about the case than us. We have: Chloro searchs on the computer, Chloro found in trunk, and search warrants where the police were looking for it (plus the chemicals to make it) in the Anthony home.

I agree that it doesn't seem to fit KC's profile, but something is up...

Jersey*Girl
01-26-2009, 10:26 AM
There was a case here in Rochester where a woman who was running a day care center was giving the kids Benadryl every afternoon to keep them sleeping. She was charged and I believe convicted of the crime.

Hey SD, That case is the exact same reason I stopped giving my kids Benadryl when they had really bad colds. Dimatap has the same effect. I don't give them anything now unless our doctor says exactly what to give them, as well as the dosage. Also, I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. Whenever my 6 year old would give me a hard time at the football field (ie talking back, not listening, or whatever), I would jokingly say "Awww, are you feeling a little sick babycakes? Do you need some Benadryl?". Mind you it was only a joke and not meant to be taken serious, and people always got a chuckle out of it - but after hearing of this case & following it so closely, now I realize how inappropriate it is to say things like that. I can find another way to be humorous. This case has affected so many people. Hopefully all of us can learn something from it to turn into something positive.:heart:

Jersey*Girl
01-26-2009, 10:30 AM
There was a case here in Rochester where a woman who was running a day care center was giving the kids Benadryl every afternoon to keep them sleeping. She was charged and I believe convicted of the crime.

Hey SD, That case is the exact same reason I stopped giving my kids Benadryl when they had really bad colds. Dimatap has the same effect. I don't give them anything now unless our doctor says exactly what to give them, as well as the dosage. Also, I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. Whenever my 6 year old would give me a hard time at the football field (ie talking back, not listening, or whatever), I would jokingly say "Awww, are you feeling a little sick babycakes? Do you need some Benadryl?". Mind you it was only a joke and not meant to be taken serious, and people always got a chuckle out of it - but after hearing of this case & following it so closely, now I realize how inappropriate it is to say things like that. I can find another way to be humorous. This case has affected so many people. Hopefully all of us can learn something from it to turn into something positive.:heart:

Steely Dan
01-26-2009, 10:53 AM
Hey SD, That case is the exact same reason I stopped giving my kids Benadryl when they had really bad colds. Dimatap has the same effect. I don't give them anything now unless our doctor says exactly what to give them, as well as the dosage. Also, I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. Whenever my 6 year old would give me a hard time at the football field (ie talking back, not listening, or whatever), I would jokingly say "Awww, are you feeling a little sick babycakes? Do you need some Benadryl?". Mind you it was only a joke and not meant to be taken serious, and people always got a chuckle out of it - but after hearing of this case & following it so closely, now I realize how inappropriate it is to say things like that. I can find another way to be humorous. This case has affected so many people. Hopefully all of us can learn something from it to turn into something positive.:heart:

If you're in Jersey how did you hear about that case?

Tichad3
01-26-2009, 11:10 AM
There was a case here in Rochester where a woman who was running a day care center was giving the kids Benadryl every afternoon to keep them sleeping. She was charged and I believe convicted of the crime.


I remember something like that. I believe Montell did a show about kids and Benadryl also.

It's Not the Nanny
01-26-2009, 11:37 AM
Those who think that KC made chloroform should:

1. Look at KC. Too stupid. Too lazy. It requires some effort, other chemicals. Jars and containers. Extreme care with FLAMMABLE gases and toxic fumes. Clean up afterwards. Storage and I believe this product deteriorates within days, so you have to do it often. Else it requires major and focused planning just before it is required. That simply is not something KC could do in a million years.

2. Look at a recipe. The most common main ingredient and source of the chlorine to make up chloroform is household bleach. Don't you think the most obvious way that bleach would get into the trunk of KC's car is via Cindy and her cleaning efforts? With the trunk first soaked in bleach and the stain and smell still there, I am sure any number of solvent cleaners were tried and I almost guarantee that amongst the many chlorine compounds formed, Chloroform was one of them. It is no surprise that some Chloroform showed up in chemical analysis of the trunk.


I completely and totally agree!

I don't think KC was capable of finding chloroform, buying chloroform, mixing chloroform.

I'm guessing the process of actually making it would require glass containers, well ventilated areas, goggles!! Dangerous!

I think the chloroform in the trunk was a chemical reaction of mixed cleaning supplies that KC...and then probably her parents....applied to the liner of the trunk trying to make the smell go away.

She never counted on that smell being so awful. She tried really hard to clean it (backing car into garage). The smell is what got the police involved (it smells like a dead body has been in the car!).

My friend had a gallon of milk spill in the back of her car in the heat of the summer. They cleaned it themselves over and over.....even had it professionally cleaned several times with lots of different chemicals and procedures. The rotten smell always came back. (she had to finally pay to have the lining ripped out and replaced!)

Out Out Damn Spot!

I get the chloro searches on the computer make you go hmmm.... but it could be part of her fantasizing about killing her parents or even Caylee.....or trying to figure out where to get it after seeing RM picture. It never showed she spent more than a minute on the chloro pages and seemed to just quickly fly through the searches.

The one funny piece to the chloro puzzle that makes me wonder...for just a brief moment .... if KC really did have some in her possession was the weird sleepwalking Amy story and her missing money. Sounded like Amy had been drugged to me (remember, Amy woke up with different pants on!).

It's Not the Nanny
01-26-2009, 11:44 AM
Have we ever seen any computer printing results of the A's laptop or computer??? I'm sure computers keep a log of all documents printed, right?


I think if evidence showed KC printed off the recipe to make chloroform, I would put more weight on the chloroform theory!

BondJamesBond
01-26-2009, 11:50 AM
Two thoughts....

RE: Chloroform in the trunk


It was generally discussed in the early stages of the case upon the release of forensics supporting an elevated level of chloroform that stain removers, etc. utilize chloroform. More recently another poster suggested, yet I haven't seen much else of it...BOTH the elevated level of chloroform in the trunk AND at least one of the cadaver dog alerts in the backyard would possibly be explained by Cindy using her Bissel steam cleaner and some spot remover on the trunk. That poster suggested Cindy dumped the resulting water in the backyard, hence, the cadaver dog alert. I am liking this proposal more & more over time. I'd add to it that IIRC, the portion of the trunk that was stained was the removable mat over the spare tire, hence, the whole mat may have been taken to the backyard and cleaned there. As JWG has offered in the computer forensic search, chloroform searches on the PC in March may have been completely unrelated...just maybe...

This opens things up more for the use of other medications resulting in the o.d. of Caylee. Sadly, owing to the slow-acting nature of the OTC's Casey might've been accustomed to using...Casey may have applied the more-is-better principle since she would've been trying to be covert about Caylee being in the car. Furthermore, if Caylee was just drowsey...and not 'knocked out' by the Rx...the duct tape with the heart sticker may have come into play to enable Casey to get back to the apartment before her protracted absence became suspicious. As another poster suggested...the heart sticker made light of the situation and helped Casey forgive whatever guilt she might've felt, even if ever-so-briefly, for her actions. If Casey had been smokin'/drinkin' that afternoon and in a hurry to get back to the apartment...obviously exercising ueber-grossly poor judgement and negligent behavior...the tape getting caught in the hair would just be a detail she'd handle later...I mean...it is 10-min-@-time-Casey, right?!? :mad:

FWIW, IF...big IF...as she commented to Amy in texts, Casey had a bruised rib in May whilst she had the flu/cold. Casey commented to Amy 5/21 about having anti-inflammatory Rx to treat the flu & bruised rib, "Works for me! I'm not feeling worse. Found out I have a bruised rib. At least I have nice pills for my flu and I’ll be popping anti-inflammatories like there’s no tomorrow.". So...who knows what Rx Casey had in her purse. If she'd used OTC's to speed/extend Caylee's naps...maybe she just upped the ante w/ her own Rx on a spur of the moment decision when her 'flurry' of calls finally failed...7:20PM.

RE: Casey-think factoring into a few things...(e.g. the duct tape in hair, "spiteful b*tch", revenge/victim motivating her hasty/poor decisions)


Recommend watching the last released August Casey w/ G&C jailhouse video again...and the ramp up between Casey & Cindy. Cindy forces an issue => Casey's defense/distract/deflect mechanism kicks in...and Casey immediately becomes the victim..her actions are justified in her own way of thinking because, after all, she's the victim and no one understands...:furious:

Now...replay that sequence of behavior considering the last call Casey made to Cindy 6/16 7:06 PM that lasted 1 min 24 seconds. Cindy forced the issue of Casey becoming responsible for her daughter that night => Casey's actions become justified in her own mind. Last ditch attempt to Amy 13mins later...perhaps after the last dose of Rx has already been given...just gonna drop a drowsy/sleeping Caylee of with her, right? No luck...and the furious Casey you saw in that jailhouse video pulls out the duct tape. The state of mind you saw in that video is the state of mind she was in when that duct tape was applied...she was effectively in a rage. :furious: The heart sticker, in effect, to relieve her own guilt...IOW...directing the thought @ Caylee...this is Cindy's fault...not mine...I [Casey] love you [Caylee].

Casey writes, "Diary of Days" directing the first half-to Cindy.



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = 6/16 7:06PM phone call. IOW...when you find out Caylee's gone, I [Casey] want you [Cindy] to remember that I [Casey] called you [Cindy] for help, and you[Cindy] refused to help me => This is your [Cindy's] fault...not mine [Casey's].

"With great power...comes great consequence"= You [Cindy] thought you had the power to control me [Casey] through Caylee. And see what happened! This is your [Cindy's] fault!

"What is given can be taken away" = I [Casey] have the power. I [Casey] gave you [Cindy] Caylee, and I [Casey] had the power to take her away.


The second verse, Casey directs to herself...



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]

"Hold your head high, smile, laugh...tomorrow is a brand new day" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]. Keep your [Casey's] power over her [Cindy]. Enjoy your [Casey's] life...otherwise, Cindy will have the joy of seeing you suffer from your own actions...can't let that happen at all costs = No admission of guilt...ever.

Since, IMHO, this line of thinking was powerful enough to fuel the murder...its certainly powerful enough to keep Casey from ever admitting to the crime..and giving Cindy the final/last victory.

natsound
01-26-2009, 11:51 AM
I completely and totally agree!

I don't think KC was capable of finding chloroform, buying chloroform, mixing chloroform.

I'm guessing the process of actually making it would require glass containers, well ventilated areas, goggles!! Dangerous!

I think the chloroform in the trunk was a chemical reaction of mixed cleaning supplies that KC...and then probably her parents....applied to the liner of the trunk trying to make the smell go away.

She never counted on that smell being so awful. She tried really hard to clean it (backing car into garage). The smell is what got the police involved (it smells like a dead body has been in the car!).

My friend had a gallon of milk spill in the back of her car in the heat of the summer. They cleaned it themselves over and over.....even had it professionally cleaned several times with lots of different chemicals and procedures. The rotten smell always came back. (she had to finally pay to have the lining ripped out and replaced!)

Out Out Damn Spot!

I get the chloro searches on the computer make you go hmmm.... but it could be part of her fantasizing about killing her parents or even Caylee.....or trying to figure out where to get it after seeing RM picture. It never showed she spent more than a minute on the chloro pages and seemed to just quickly fly through the searches.

The one funny piece to the chloro puzzle that makes me wonder...for just a brief moment .... if KC really did have some in her possession was the weird sleepwalking Amy story and her missing money. Sounded like Amy had been drugged to me (remember, Amy woke up with different pants on!).

BUT.. didn't we just see last week a motion to compel digital evidence from RM's computer? Most likely it was that "win her over with chloroform" picture. IIRC it was Baez trying to get his hands on it this time. I think police believe chloroform played a role in Caylee's death. It would be too much of a coincidence to have a computer search for chloroform (I bet you wouldn't find a similar search on 1,000 other computers), and detecting a level of chloroform in the trunk.

ibyoungr
01-26-2009, 11:58 AM
Out Out Damn Spot!

This is what I yell at my dog! LOL


ITA, with everything you said and I agree with Hercule...
However, since reading this last doc dump.. one thing is sticking out in my mind...

I cry for help....:confused:

I picture Cindy "scrubbing" out the trunk and cleaning up a stain. I also picture her taking out the liner and spraying it in the back yard (gotten idea from other posters)

However... if this is true..

The forensics on the car trunk had hair and DIRT in the trunk. If Cindy cleaned out the trunk liner so well... then WHY WOULD THERE STILL BE DIRT in the trunk?

After reading this.. in my mind I see a patch of soil or dirt about 1/8 to 1/4 cup of soil laying in the trunk with some hair...

What do you picture?

It's Not the Nanny
01-26-2009, 12:01 PM
Two thoughts....

RE: Chloroform in the trunk


It was generally discussed in the early stages of the case upon the release of forensics supporting an elevated level of chloroform that stain removers, etc. utilize chloroform. More recently another poster suggested, yet I haven't seen much else of it...BOTH the elevated level of chloroform in the trunk AND at least one of the cadaver dog alerts in the backyard would possibly be explained by Cindy using her Bissel steam cleaner and some spot remover on the trunk. That poster suggested Cindy dumped the resulting water in the backyard, hence, the cadaver dog alert. I am liking this proposal more & more over time. I'd add to it that IIRC, the portion of the trunk that was stained was the removable mat over the spare tire, hence, the whole mat may have been taken to the backyard and cleaned there. As JWG has offered in the computer forensic search, chloroform searches on the PC in March may have been completely unrelated...just maybe...

This opens things up more for the use of other medications resulting in the o.d. of Caylee. Sadly, owing to the slow-acting nature of the OTC's Casey might've been accustomed to using...Casey may have applied the more-is-better principle since she would've been trying to be covert about Caylee being in the car. Furthermore, if Caylee was just drowsey...and not 'knocked out' by the Rx...the duct tape with the heart sticker may have come into play to enable Casey to get back to the apartment before her protracted absence became suspicious. As another poster suggested...the heart sticker made light of the situation and helped Casey forgive whatever guilt she might've felt, even if ever-so-briefly, for her actions. If Casey had been smokin'/drinkin' that afternoon and in a hurry to get back to the apartment...obviously exercising ueber-grossly poor judgement and negligent behavior...the tape getting caught in the hair would just be a detail she'd handle later...I mean...it is 10-min-@-time-Casey, right?!? :mad:

FWIW, IF...big IF...as she commented to Amy in texts, Casey had a bruised rib in May whilst she had the flu/cold. Casey commented to Amy 5/21 about having anti-inflammatory Rx to treat the flu & bruised rib, "Works for me! I'm not feeling worse. Found out I have a bruised rib. At least I have nice pills for my flu and I’ll be popping anti-inflammatories like there’s no tomorrow.". So...who knows what Rx Casey had in her purse. If she'd used OTC's to speed/extend Caylee's naps...maybe she just upped the ante w/ her own Rx on a spur of the moment decision when her 'flurry' of calls finally failed...7:20PM.

RE: Casey-think factoring into a few things...(e.g. the duct tape in hair, "spiteful b*tch", revenge/victim motivating her hasty/poor decisions)


Recommend watching the last released August Casey w/ G&C jailhouse video again...and the ramp up between Casey & Cindy. Cindy forces an issue => Casey's defense/distract/deflect mechanism kicks in...and Casey immediately becomes the victim..her actions are justified in her own way of thinking because, after all, she's the victim and no one understands...:furious:

Now...replay that sequence of behavior considering the last call Casey made to Cindy 6/16 7:06 PM that lasted 1 min 24 seconds. Cindy forced the issue of Casey becoming responsible for her daughter that night => Casey's actions become justified in her own mind. Last ditch attempt to Amy 13mins later...perhaps after the last dose of Rx has already been given...just gonna drop a drowsy/sleeping Caylee of with her, right? No luck...and the furious Casey you saw in that jailhouse video pulls out the duct tape. The state of mind you saw in that video is the state of mind she was in when that duct tape was applied...she was effectively in a rage. :furious: The heart sticker, in effect, to relieve her own guilt...IOW...directing the thought @ Caylee...this is Cindy's fault...not mine...I [Casey] love you [Caylee].

Casey writes, "Diary of Days" directing the first half-to Cindy.



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = 6/16 7:06PM phone call. IOW...when you find out Caylee's gone, I [Casey] want you [Cindy] to remember that I [Casey] called you [Cindy] for help, and you[Cindy] refused to help me => This is Cindy's fault...not Casey's.

"With great power...comes great consequence"= You [Cindy] thought you had the power to control me [Casey] through Caylee. And see what happened! This is your [Cindy's] fault!

"What is given can be taken away" = I [Casey] have the power. I [Casey] gave you [Cindy] Caylee, and I [Casey] had the power to take her away.


The second verse, Casey directs to herself...



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]

"Hold your head high, smile, laugh...tomorrow is a brand new day" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]. Keep your [Casey's] power over her [Cindy]. Enjoy your [Casey's] life...otherwise, Cindy will have the joy of seeing you suffer from your own actions...can't let that happen at all costs = No admission of guilt...ever.

Since, IMHO, this line of thinking was powerful enough to fuel the murder...its certainly powerful enough to keep Casey from ever admitting to the crime..and giving Cindy the final/last victory.


I forgot about KC's cold and her bruised rib and her Rx for the cold. (of course, when I read it the first time, I was under the impression that she was just avoiding Amy.....)

Love your analysis on the Diary of Days!!! Bravo. Remember the chilling, "You don't know what MY part is in this???"

natsound
01-26-2009, 12:02 PM
Out Out Damn Spot!

This is what I yell at my dog! LOL


ITA, with everything you said and I agree with Hercule...
However, since reading this last doc dump.. one thing is sticking out in my mind...

I cry for help....:confused:

I picture Cindy "scrubbing" out the trunk and cleaning up a stain. I also picture her taking out the liner and spraying it in the back yard (gotten idea from other posters)

However... if this is true..

The forensics on the car trunk had hair and DIRT in the trunk. If Cindy cleaned out the trunk liner so well... then WHY WOULD THERE STILL BE DIRT in the trunk?

After reading this.. in my mind I see a patch of soil or dirt about 1/8 to 1/4 cup of soil laying in the trunk with some hair...

What do you picture?

Yup... I don't think CA or GA cleaned out the trunk. I could see KC doing it, when she backed into the garage several times in a row. Conceivably, the dirt could have gotten in there after a scrub-out.

It's Not the Nanny
01-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Out Out Damn Spot!

This is what I yell at my dog! LOL


ITA, with everything you said and I agree with Hercule...
However, since reading this last doc dump.. one thing is sticking out in my mind...

I cry for help....:confused:

I picture Cindy "scrubbing" out the trunk and cleaning up a stain. I also picture her taking out the liner and spraying it in the back yard (gotten idea from other posters)

However... if this is true..

The forensics on the car trunk had hair and DIRT in the trunk. If Cindy cleaned out the trunk liner so well... then WHY WOULD THERE STILL BE DIRT in the trunk?

After reading this.. in my mind I see a patch of soil or dirt about 1/8 to 1/4 cup of soil laying in the trunk with some hair...

What do you picture?

Well, it says the samples are from the "trunk"....maybe the soil was found down in the spare tire well? It wouldn't necessarily come from the liner. Natsound's idea that it came after KC cleaned it makes sense, too.


When I saw LE carrying out the Bissell Steam Spot Cleaner (I have one!) during the search warrant after Caylee was found, my FIRST thought was that whoever used it to clean the liner, did it in the backyard or dumped the dirty water in the yard. I'm sure there will be evidence of decomp in the brush or inside the machine if it was used!

ibyoungr
01-26-2009, 12:13 PM
Well, it says the samples are from the "trunk"....maybe the soil was found down in the spare tire well? It wouldn't necessarily come from the liner. Natsound's idea that it came after KC cleaned it makes sense, too.


When I saw LE carrying out the Bissell Steam Spot Cleaner (I have one!) during the search warrant after Caylee was found, my FIRST thought was that whoever used it to clean the liner, did it in the backyard or dumped the dirty water in the yard. I'm sure there will be evidence of decomp in the brush or inside the machine if it was used!

True it could have came from the tire well.
It is just I can "see" either Cindy scrubbing the car or then I can just see removing the items and letting the car air out.

The leaves removed from the car too is quite interesting. Hope they match to the leaves on Surburban drive.

Kat
01-26-2009, 12:17 PM
BJB I really like your interpretation of the Diary of Days. KC doesn't strike me as someone who is introspective or who waxes poetic often. It makes perfect sense to me that she was placing blame elsewhere for the death of Caylee.

Very good job:clap:

publius
01-26-2009, 12:21 PM
If the chloro thing is a dead end (i.e., a meaningless series of unrelated and useless details), then why is LE still so hot about searching for chloro evidence? They went to the Anthony's, after the body was found, and they were searching for chloro and the items to make it! It is specified in the warrant! They certainly seem to believe there is more to the chloro then we do. Why?

Jersey*Girl
01-26-2009, 12:28 PM
If you're in Jersey how did you hear about that case?

I heard about it on the news. I usually watched Fox News, so it was probably on that station. Now I watch CNN. I know I didn't see it on Montell b/c I haven't had the time to watch Montell in years. Also, I had no idea it was in Rochester, only heard about it happening in general. I don't even remember if it was a big scoop or just something mentioned during the time that they were talking about baby cold meds being de-shelved. Needless to say, it made me think about the side effects of those types of otc meds in small children. I won't even let my 14 year old have Vicks Nyquil Nighttime medicine to help him when he's sick. Now I do the good old fashion method of Vicks on the chest, Vicks under the nose to open up the passage, Chicken soup, and hot tea or ginger ale. I've never once given my kids anything to help them sleep when they're not sick and I think it's sick that there's actually people out there that do that. I'm just grateful for hearing about it b/c it made me think. I also think it might have had something to do with the govt / fda taking baby meds off of the shelves. Maybe I'm wrong there, not sure.

JWG
01-26-2009, 12:41 PM
RE: Casey-think factoring into a few things...(e.g. the duct tape in hair, "spiteful b*tch", revenge/victim motivating her hasty/poor decisions)

Recommend watching the last released August Casey w/ G&C jailhouse video again...and the ramp up between Casey & Cindy. Cindy forces an issue => Casey's defense/distract/deflect mechanism kicks in...and Casey immediately becomes the victim..her actions are justified in her own way of thinking because, after all, she's the victim and no one understands...:furious:

Now...replay that sequence of behavior considering the last call Casey made to Cindy 6/16 7:06 PM that lasted 1 min 24 seconds. Cindy forced the issue of Casey becoming responsible for her daughter that night => Casey's actions become justified in her own mind. Last ditch attempt to Amy 13mins later...perhaps after the last dose of Rx has already been given...just gonna drop a drowsy/sleeping Caylee of with her, right? No luck...and the furious Casey you saw in that jailhouse video pulls out the duct tape. The state of mind you saw in that video is the state of mind she was in when that duct tape was applied...she was effectively in a rage. :furious: The heart sticker, in effect, to relieve her own guilt...IOW...directing the thought @ Caylee...this is Cindy's fault...not mine...I [Casey] love you [Caylee].
Casey writes, "Diary of Days" directing the first half-to Cindy.

"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = 6/16 7:06PM phone call. IOW...when you find out Caylee's gone, I [Casey] want you [Cindy] to remember that I [Casey] called you [Cindy] for help, and you[Cindy] refused to help me => This is your [Cindy's] fault...not mine [Casey's].

"With great power...comes great consequence"= You [Cindy] thought you had the power to control me [Casey] through Caylee. And see what happened! This is your [Cindy's] fault!

"What is given can be taken away" = I [Casey] have the power. I [Casey] gave you [Cindy] Caylee, and I [Casey] had the power to take her away.
The second verse, Casey directs to herself...

"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]

"Hold your head high, smile, laugh...tomorrow is a brand new day" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]. Keep your [Casey's] power over her [Cindy]. Enjoy your [Casey's] life...otherwise, Cindy will have the joy of seeing you suffer from your own actions...can't let that happen at all costs = No admission of guilt...ever.

Since, IMHO, this line of thinking was powerful enough to fuel the murder...its certainly powerful enough to keep Casey from ever admitting to the crime..and giving Cindy the final/last victory.

That was pretty chilling, especially after re-watching the video as you suggested. :nerves: I think your interpretation of the meaning behind the Diary of Days is spot on. :clap:

It's Not the Nanny
01-26-2009, 12:43 PM
If the chloro thing is a dead end (i.e., a meaningless series of unrelated and useless details), then why is LE still so hot about searching for chloro evidence? They went to the Anthony's, after the body was found, and they were searching for chloro and the items to make it! It is specified in the warrant! They certainly seem to believe there is more to the chloro then we do. Why?


True.... don't have an answer for that.


The question I have is what did they see at the crime scene that would make them rush back to the house to look for the chloro items????

Why didn't they look for and take items to make chloro the first time they did a search of the home???

JWG
01-26-2009, 12:55 PM
Texts with Amy on May 23 indicate Casey took Caylee to the Dr. for her cold. Texts on the following day indicate Caylee is suddenly a lot better. Wonder what the doctor prescribed or suggested she give Caylee? :waitasec:

May 23, 2008

KC AH 5/23/08 8:41AM I’ll have to let you know when I get done at the drs. I gave Caylee my cold.
AH KC And your bruised rib? I didn’t think those were contagious! Poor baby. Give her a hug for me.
KC AH 5/23/08 8:46AM At least her ribs are good. Ha ha. I know .. I feel terrible. I gave her some Amy love.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:19AM Big time. Stupid dr. Waiting sucks.
AH KC I'm under a table. Want to trade places?
KC AH 5/23/08 11:30AM Ha ha in a heart beat.
AH KC You have to keep your cold tho. That’s not part of the deal.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:32AM Ha ha d**n. What about the bruised rib?
AH KC Your’s too I'm afraid. This is a positionary change only. And yes, I believe I just made up a word.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:34AM That’s awesome. You crack me up.
AH KC I do my best. So after the show I'm going to go home and shower. I’ll just nap 'til we go.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:41AM Sounds good. I’ll be stuck here for at least another hour. So many kids.
AH KC So stop giving your kid colds! Geez! The show is about to end. I’ll be here another 30 to 45 minutes. Whatever works. Keep me posted.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:51AM I'm trying! This is the first time she has ever gotten sick. We made it almost 3 years. I’ll let you know.

May 24, 2008

AH KC How’s the kid doing with her cold?
KC AH 5/24/08 5:51PM She’s good. Barely sneezing anymore.
AH KC Good. Poor kid! I'm excited for tonight.

Jersey*Girl
01-26-2009, 01:05 PM
Two thoughts....

RE: Chloroform in the trunk


It was generally discussed in the early stages of the case upon the release of forensics supporting an elevated level of chloroform that stain removers, etc. utilize chloroform. More recently another poster suggested, yet I haven't seen much else of it...BOTH the elevated level of chloroform in the trunk AND at least one of the cadaver dog alerts in the backyard would possibly be explained by Cindy using her Bissel steam cleaner and some spot remover on the trunk. That poster suggested Cindy dumped the resulting water in the backyard, hence, the cadaver dog alert. I am liking this proposal more & more over time. I'd add to it that IIRC, the portion of the trunk that was stained was the removable mat over the spare tire, hence, the whole mat may have been taken to the backyard and cleaned there. As JWG has offered in the computer forensic search, chloroform searches on the PC in March may have been completely unrelated...just maybe...

This opens things up more for the use of other medications resulting in the o.d. of Caylee. Sadly, owing to the slow-acting nature of the OTC's Casey might've been accustomed to using...Casey may have applied the more-is-better principle since she would've been trying to be covert about Caylee being in the car. Furthermore, if Caylee was just drowsey...and not 'knocked out' by the Rx...the duct tape with the heart sticker may have come into play to enable Casey to get back to the apartment before her protracted absence became suspicious. As another poster suggested...the heart sticker made light of the situation and helped Casey forgive whatever guilt she might've felt, even if ever-so-briefly, for her actions. If Casey had been smokin'/drinkin' that afternoon and in a hurry to get back to the apartment...obviously exercising ueber-grossly poor judgement and negligent behavior...the tape getting caught in the hair would just be a detail she'd handle later...I mean...it is 10-min-@-time-Casey, right?!? :mad:

FWIW, IF...big IF...as she commented to Amy in texts, Casey had a bruised rib in May whilst she had the flu/cold. Casey commented to Amy 5/21 about having anti-inflammatory Rx to treat the flu & bruised rib, "Works for me! I'm not feeling worse. Found out I have a bruised rib. At least I have nice pills for my flu and I’ll be popping anti-inflammatories like there’s no tomorrow.". So...who knows what Rx Casey had in her purse. If she'd used OTC's to speed/extend Caylee's naps...maybe she just upped the ante w/ her own Rx on a spur of the moment decision when her 'flurry' of calls finally failed...7:20PM.

RE: Casey-think factoring into a few things...(e.g. the duct tape in hair, "spiteful b*tch", revenge/victim motivating her hasty/poor decisions)


Recommend watching the last released August Casey w/ G&C jailhouse video again...and the ramp up between Casey & Cindy. Cindy forces an issue => Casey's defense/distract/deflect mechanism kicks in...and Casey immediately becomes the victim..her actions are justified in her own way of thinking because, after all, she's the victim and no one understands...:furious:

Now...replay that sequence of behavior considering the last call Casey made to Cindy 6/16 7:06 PM that lasted 1 min 24 seconds. Cindy forced the issue of Casey becoming responsible for her daughter that night => Casey's actions become justified in her own mind. Last ditch attempt to Amy 13mins later...perhaps after the last dose of Rx has already been given...just gonna drop a drowsy/sleeping Caylee of with her, right? No luck...and the furious Casey you saw in that jailhouse video pulls out the duct tape. The state of mind you saw in that video is the state of mind she was in when that duct tape was applied...she was effectively in a rage. :furious: The heart sticker, in effect, to relieve her own guilt...IOW...directing the thought @ Caylee...this is Cindy's fault...not mine...I [Casey] love you [Caylee].

Casey writes, "Diary of Days" directing the first half-to Cindy.



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = 6/16 7:06PM phone call. IOW...when you find out Caylee's gone, I [Casey] want you [Cindy] to remember that I [Casey] called you [Cindy] for help, and you[Cindy] refused to help me => This is your [Cindy's] fault...not mine [Casey's].

"With great power...comes great consequence"= You [Cindy] thought you had the power to control me [Casey] through Caylee. And see what happened! This is your [Cindy's] fault!

"What is given can be taken away" = I [Casey] have the power. I [Casey] gave you [Cindy] Caylee, and I [Casey] had the power to take her away.


The second verse, Casey directs to herself...



"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]

"Hold your head high, smile, laugh...tomorrow is a brand new day" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]. Keep your [Casey's] power over her [Cindy]. Enjoy your [Casey's] life...otherwise, Cindy will have the joy of seeing you suffer from your own actions...can't let that happen at all costs = No admission of guilt...ever.

Since, IMHO, this line of thinking was powerful enough to fuel the murder...its certainly powerful enough to keep Casey from ever admitting to the crime..and giving Cindy the final/last victory.

Extremely plausible imo! Also, you took the meaning from her poem the exact same way I did.

JWG
01-26-2009, 01:14 PM
Noticed a post by DotsEyes on the "Digital Forensic Evidence from Ricardo M" thread that chloroform is found in dryer sheets. I typed "dryer sheet chloroform" into Google and came up with a bunch of health-conscious websites making that claim.

When impounded, KC's trunk was found to have a dryer sheet in it. A dryer sheet (referred to as air freshener sheet) was removed from the middle of the car's back seat.

The trash bag taken from the trunk had four dryer sheets (referred to as air freshener sheets) in it.

Hmmmm.....

Emma Peel
01-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Perhaps this has been mentioned, but the visual of removing stained carpet, etc and laying it in the yard for cleaning - as mentioned in a previous posts today - makes me wonder if THAT could be the source of the dogs hitting in the back yard area. Is a transference of scent (decomp) from car-carpet to back yard - is that a possibility? Clearly, the cadaver dogs have an opinion here - although they can't post - I like to remember their input too ... woof! :)

Rumpole
01-26-2009, 10:07 PM
If the chloro thing is a dead end (i.e., a meaningless series of unrelated and useless details), then why is LE still so hot about searching for chloro evidence? They went to the Anthony's, after the body was found, and they were searching for chloro and the items to make it! It is specified in the warrant! They certainly seem to believe there is more to the chloro then we do. Why?
My evaluation of the evidence that we have seen so far is that Cloroform search on computer and chloroform found in the trunk are both easily explained and certainly easily argued away in court to a "reasonable doubt" standard.
I would NOT for a second suggest LE should stop investigating possible chloroform involvement! It could be a great thread of evidence. However they would need to have more evidence than they have shared with the public, or find more evidence, such as cotainers etc or perhaps toxicology evidence from the remains.

shadow of my mind
01-26-2009, 10:56 PM
Noticed a post by DotsEyes on the "Digital Forensic Evidence from Ricardo M" thread that chloroform is found in dryer sheets. I typed "dryer sheet chloroform" into Google and came up with a bunch of health-conscious websites making that claim.

When impounded, KC's trunk was found to have a dryer sheet in it. A dryer sheet (referred to as air freshener sheet) was removed from the middle of the car's back seat.

The trash bag taken from the trunk had four dryer sheets (referred to as air freshener sheets) in it.

Hmmmm.....

Hmmmm is right.... but I would think that if dryer sheets had such huge levels of chloroform in them to make the air test show a heavy concentration that you would have had people picketing in front of the stores that sold them. I remember way back when I was in grade school there was this big hubbub about breathing formaldehyde from newspapers because it was found to part of processing of the printing ink. IIRC you would have to swim in the ink for it do you any harm.
I can't even find a figure of what the % of concentration of chloroform is in a dryer sheet.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say I would think it would take a whole lot of those sheets to cause an abnormal level in a car trunk. I going to ask this on our Q&A thread and see if any of our chemist type members can chime in on this.

suspicious1
01-26-2009, 11:43 PM
Hmmmm is right.... but I would think that if dryer sheets had such huge levels of chloroform in them to make the air test show a heavy concentration that you would have had people picketing in front of the stores that sold them. I remember way back when I was in grade school there was this big hubbub about breathing formaldehyde from newspapers because it was found to part of processing of the printing ink. IIRC you would have to swim in the ink for it do you any harm.
I can't even find a figure of what the % of concentration of chloroform is in a dryer sheet.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say I would think it would take a whole lot of those sheets to cause an abnormal level in a car trunk. I going to ask this on our Q&A thread and see if any of our chemist type members can chime in on this.

Hey I just read an article about dryer sheets and the chemicals that they contain. I didn't know that dryer sheets (wet) can be used to clean stains. Has anyone else heard of this? It's news to me. The article also stated that dryer sheets are nothing more than cloths soaked in fabric softner which is dispersed onto the clothing by the HEAT caused from the dryer. If KC had these dryer sheets in the car (in the trunk in FLA heat), supposedly to make the car smell better, would the heat produce the chemicals in high levels? I'm just thinking that maybe the chloroform came from those dryer sheets. Since learning that KC had dryer sheets in her car, my first thought was why would she have those in her car. To make it smell better? Why not just get the stuff used spcifically for a car. I think it's more to the story.

I'm beginning to think that Caylee's death had nothing to do with chloroform. I think that KC's computer search was nothing more than her trying to find out what it was after seeing it on RM myspace page and just so happen she used dryer sheets to cover up the smell of human decomp which also contained chloroform.

Hot Dogs
01-27-2009, 02:03 AM
Two air freshener sheets were found in the car by evidence technicians. One was between the seats and the other was in the trunk. If GA and/or CA had thoroughly cleaned out the car - I would expect them to throw away these items. But instead they were there.

Four freshener sheets were found inside the white trash bag (with lots of other trash) and so it seems that these may have originated from AL's house.

I guess what I'm thinking is that if G and/or C really had endeavored to clean the car (esp the trunk) they would have pitched the freshener sheets that had been sitting in all that stink. Either they didn't do that, or they placed new freshener from their house.

Pink Panther
01-27-2009, 07:41 AM
Two air freshener sheets were found in the car by evidence technicians. One was between the seats and the other was in the trunk. If GA and/or CA had thoroughly cleaned out the car - I would expect them to throw away these items. But instead they were there.

Four freshener sheets were found inside the white trash bag (with lots of other trash) and so it seems that these may have originated from AL's house.

I guess what I'm thinking is that if G and/or C really had endeavored to clean the car (esp the trunk) they would have pitched the freshener sheets that had been sitting in all that stink. Either they didn't do that, or they placed new freshener from their house.
Maybe not. :rolleyes: I dated a guy once who sold used cars and he told me that when they would clean the interiors of cars, they would often toss freshener sheets under the seats to give the car a fresh smell...

JWG
01-27-2009, 09:31 AM
Hmmmm is right.... but I would think that if dryer sheets had such huge levels of chloroform in them to make the air test show a heavy concentration that you would have had people picketing in front of the stores that sold them. I remember way back when I was in grade school there was this big hubbub about breathing formaldehyde from newspapers because it was found to part of processing of the printing ink. IIRC you would have to swim in the ink for it do you any harm.
I can't even find a figure of what the % of concentration of chloroform is in a dryer sheet.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say I would think it would take a whole lot of those sheets to cause an abnormal level in a car trunk. I going to ask this on our Q&A thread and see if any of our chemist type members can chime in on this.

I've pointed out previously that the forensic report did not indicate level of concentration. They simply said "unusually large" and "far higher than what is typically seen in human decomposition". Neither of those are defined. That is...does "typical" mean 10 ppm and "unusually large" mean 20 ppm? Those numbers are critical to know in order to eliminate dryer sheets and cleaning solutions.

Steely Dan
01-27-2009, 09:40 AM
I forgot about KC's cold and her bruised rib and her Rx for the cold. (of course, when I read it the first time, I was under the impression that she was just avoiding Amy.....)

Love your analysis on the Diary of Days!!! Bravo. Remember the chilling, "You don't know what MY part is in this???"

I forget where that's from. :waitasec:


I heard about it on the news. I usually watched Fox News, so it was probably on that station. Now I watch CNN. I know I didn't see it on Montell b/c I haven't had the time to watch Montell in years. Also, I had no idea it was in Rochester, only heard about it happening in general. I don't even remember if it was a big scoop or just something mentioned during the time that they were talking about baby cold meds being de-shelved. Needless to say, it made me think about the side effects of those types of otc meds in small children. I won't even let my 14 year old have Vicks Nyquil Nighttime medicine to help him when he's sick. Now I do the good old fashion method of Vicks on the chest, Vicks under the nose to open up the passage, Chicken soup, and hot tea or ginger ale. I've never once given my kids anything to help them sleep when they're not sick and I think it's sick that there's actually people out there that do that. I'm just grateful for hearing about it b/c it made me think. I also think it might have had something to do with the govt / fda taking baby meds off of the shelves. Maybe I'm wrong there, not sure.

I'm just surprised that it became a national story. I guess it is salacious enough to make it there.

Smart idea with the kids, you shouldn't make them OTC drug dependent. :thumb:

It's Not the Nanny
01-27-2009, 09:53 AM
Texts with Amy on May 23 indicate Casey took Caylee to the Dr. for her cold. Texts on the following day indicate Caylee is suddenly a lot better. Wonder what the doctor prescribed or suggested she give Caylee? :waitasec:

May 23, 2008

KC AH 5/23/08 8:41AM I’ll have to let you know when I get done at the drs. I gave Caylee my cold.
AH KC And your bruised rib? I didn’t think those were contagious! Poor baby. Give her a hug for me.
KC AH 5/23/08 8:46AM At least her ribs are good. Ha ha. I know .. I feel terrible. I gave her some Amy love.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:19AM Big time. Stupid dr. Waiting sucks.
AH KC I'm under a table. Want to trade places?
KC AH 5/23/08 11:30AM Ha ha in a heart beat.
AH KC You have to keep your cold tho. That’s not part of the deal.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:32AM Ha ha d**n. What about the bruised rib?
AH KC Your’s too I'm afraid. This is a positionary change only. And yes, I believe I just made up a word.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:34AM That’s awesome. You crack me up.
AH KC I do my best. So after the show I'm going to go home and shower. I’ll just nap 'til we go.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:41AM Sounds good. I’ll be stuck here for at least another hour. So many kids.
AH KC So stop giving your kid colds! Geez! The show is about to end. I’ll be here another 30 to 45 minutes. Whatever works. Keep me posted.
KC AH 5/23/08 11:51AM I'm trying! This is the first time she has ever gotten sick. We made it almost 3 years. I’ll let you know.

May 24, 2008

AH KC How’s the kid doing with her cold?
KC AH 5/24/08 5:51PM She’s good. Barely sneezing anymore.
AH KC Good. Poor kid! I'm excited for tonight.

This is like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", right? See, I barely ever believe anything KC says anymore because so much of it has proven to be a lie. Maybe the girl did speak the truth once in a while???

Maybe she was sick....and maybe she did give her cold to Caylee....and just maybe KC was given some meds for her cold that she later gave to Caylee.

I read this text exchange as KC avoiding meeting up with AH. The next day KC says they are better and that Caylee isn't even "sneezing" anymore.

I have two kids.....the cold isn't miraculously over when the sneezing stops. Usually it's when the runny nose and coughing are gone.

I also remember an interview (Lord, I have no idea where) where Cyndi says KC would call her and ask if she should take Caylee in to get her ears checked whenever she was sick, stuff like that so I don't believe this was Caylee's VERY FIRST COLD and was virus free for her almost 3 years of life.

publius
01-27-2009, 10:06 AM
This is like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", right? See, I barely ever believe anything KC says anymore because so much of it has proven to be a lie. Maybe the girl did speak the truth once in a while???

Maybe she was sick....and maybe she did give her cold to Caylee....and just maybe KC was given some meds for her cold that she later gave to Caylee.

I read this text exchange as KC avoiding meeting up with AH. The next day KC says they are better and that Caylee isn't even "sneezing" anymore.

I have two kids.....the cold isn't miraculously over when the sneezing stops. Usually it's when the runny nose and coughing are gone.

I also remember an interview (Lord, I have no idea where) where Cyndi says KC would call her and ask if she should take Caylee in to get her ears checked whenever she was sick, stuff like that so I don't believe this was Caylee's VERY FIRST COLD and was virus free for her almost 3 years of life.

Agreed 100%. That text reads as plain ol' BS, just like her texts about her dad having a stroke and going to the ER (etc.)... I mean really, the 1st time her kid got sick in 3 years??? Please... She just wanted to avoid doing something or admitting something.

I'd like to hear more about Chloro and dryer sheets. The third google result leads to this thread! All the others were 'fringe' sites.

Jersey*Girl
01-27-2009, 10:07 AM
Quick question. We know that Casey was seen by a psychiatrist to see if she was mentally competent but those results haven't been made public. Could Casey have Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder)? I'm only asking this b/c it would add up if Casey was in fact Zenaida in another personality. While I don't believe this is the case, it still makes me wonder. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=38077

suspicious1
01-27-2009, 10:11 AM
Agreed 100%. That text reads as plain ol' BS, just like her texts about her dad having a stroke and going to the ER (etc.)... I mean really, the 1st time her kid got sick in 3 years??? Please... She just wanted to avoid doing something or admitting something.

I'd like to hear more about Chloro and dryer sheets. The third google result leads to this thread! All the others were 'fringe' sites.

I read somewhere that dryer sheets are nothing more than cloths soaked in fabric softner and that they contain chloroform. The HEAT from the dryer is what is used to disperse the chemicals onto clothing. That's where I think the chloroform came from. Isn't chloroform also found in human decomp? I would say that the two mixed together would probably produce high levels of chloroform.

debs
01-27-2009, 10:15 AM
Quick question. We know that Casey was seen by a psychiatrist to see if she was mentally competent but those results haven't been made public. Could Casey have Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder)? I'm only asking this b/c it would add up if Casey was in fact Zenaida in another personality. While I don't believe this is the case, it still makes me wonder. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=38077


Short answer is no. Someone with DID (MPD) would affect the personality of the person Zenaida. She would act as Zenaida, talk as Zenaida, be called by and introduce herself as Zenaida, and would not KNOW of Zenaida unless she was told she said she was Zenaida at times when she is the Casey personality. A person with DID (MPD) does not control when an "other" takes over, which would be the case in this instance, since Cindy and George and all her friends have never EVER met this Zenaida. Since Casey uses Zenaida as a cover with her friends and family, it is more likely that Zenaida is just your garden variety alias for a liarpants clepto.

BondJamesBond
01-27-2009, 10:20 AM
... it is more likely that Zenaida is just your garden variety alias for a liarpants clepto.
*snipped & bold by me*

ah...the ole' GVALC defense, eh?

Nice one. :)

Jersey*Girl
01-27-2009, 10:24 AM
Short answer is no. Someone with DID (MPD) would affect the personality of the person Zenaida. She would act as Zenaida, talk as Zenaida, be called by and introduce herself as Zenaida, and would not KNOW of Zenaida unless she was told she said she was Zenaida at times when she is the Casey personality. A person with DID (MPD) does not control when an "other" takes over, which would be the case in this instance, since Cindy and George and all her friends have never EVER met this Zenaida. Since Casey uses Zenaida as a cover with her friends and family, it is more likely that Zenaida is just your garden variety alias for a liarpants clepto.

Yeah, you're right, but I still had to ask as I'm wondering why the results of her competency evaluation weren't made public yet. Could that be b/c of HIPAA rules? If that's the case, I thought that once a person is incarcerated, civilian rules no longer apply and they have different rules to abide by. In which case, we should have seen the results by now. On the other hand, maybe they're waiting for guilt to be proven?

BondJamesBond
01-27-2009, 10:26 AM
Just a suggestion...

Delving into the chloroform via dryer sheets might be best served on the chloroform thread. FWIW, the title alone would tend to draw WS's w/ expertise in chemistry...and, making it would also make the info easier to locate later.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3035194&highlight=chloroform#post3035194

Jersey*Girl
01-27-2009, 10:26 AM
debs, you're too funny!

debs
01-27-2009, 10:28 AM
Yeah, you're right, but I still had to ask as I'm wondering why the results of her competency evaluation weren't made public yet. Could that be b/c of HIPAA rules? If that's the case, I thought that once a person is incarcerated, civilian rules no longer apply and they have different rules to abide by. In which case, we should have seen the results by now. On the other hand, maybe they're waiting for guilt to be proven?

The only thing pertinent at the time of administering the psychological (not psychiatric) exam is to ascertain her ability to understand the charges against her and her ability to competently assist in her defense. It was determined she understood and that she could assist. Those facts were made public and anything else will remain in her file until such a time as it becomes relevant in her trial.

Jersey*Girl
01-27-2009, 10:33 AM
The only thing pertinent at the time of administering the psychological (not psychiatric) exam is to ascertain her ability to understand the charges against her and her ability to competently assist in her defense. It was determined she understood and that she could assist. Those facts were made public and anything else will remain in her file until such a time as it becomes relevant in her trial.

Ok, got it. I thought it was a complete evaluation. Thanks for the clarification:)

debs
01-27-2009, 10:40 AM
Ok, got it. I thought it was a complete evaluation. Thanks for the clarification:)

A psychological evaluation IS a complete evaluation. The only thing pertinent at the time was as to whether she could help with her defense, which it was determined she could. As I said, the rest of the results will remain in her file until trial, if needed. She is only an accused, not a convicted, prisoner.

natsound
01-27-2009, 10:53 AM
I've pointed out previously that the forensic report did not indicate level of concentration. They simply said "unusually large" and "far higher than what is typically seen in human decomposition". Neither of those are defined. That is...does "typical" mean 10 ppm and "unusually large" mean 20 ppm? Those numbers are critical to know in order to eliminate dryer sheets and cleaning solutions.

Thanks for that answer. I've been asking that too. Even though we don't have an exact level, if the forensic reports said "unusually large" levels of chloroform, then that, coupled with the search for chloroform and the pic from RM's computer which KC may have seen, tells me that chloroform was used in the crime. It's not proof, but it's an excellent indication to me.

Lanie
01-27-2009, 10:53 AM
I read somewhere that dryer sheets are nothing more than cloths soaked in fabric softner and that they contain chloroform. The HEAT from the dryer is what is used to disperse the chemicals onto clothing. That's where I think the chloroform came from. Isn't chloroform also found in human decomp? I would say that the two mixed together would probably produce high levels of chloroform.

If there was enough chloroform on one dryer sheet to produce higher than normal levels, just think about the poor people working in the dryer sheet factories, and the warehouses where pallets of dryer sheets are stored. There were also dryer sheets found in the front of the car, and no reports of chloroform found there.
JMO
Lanie

debs
01-27-2009, 11:07 AM
If there was enough chloroform on one dryer sheet to produce higher than normal levels, just think about the poor people working in the dryer sheet factories, and the warehouses where pallets of dryer sheets are stored. There were also dryer sheets found in the front of the car, and no reports of chloroform found there.
JMO
Lanie

I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

Lanie
01-27-2009, 11:15 AM
Thanks for that answer. I've been asking that too. Even though we don't have an exact level, if the forensic reports said "unusually large" levels of chloroform, then that, coupled with the search for chloroform and the pic from RM's computer which KC may have seen, tells me that chloroform was used in the crime. It's not proof, but it's an excellent indication to me.

I agree chloroform was an element in Caylee's death. I still don't think Casey made it or bought it, I think she stole it (maybe lifted it from the tattoo parlor) or was given it, though the search warrant for chloroform ingredients or reciepts kind of puts a dent in that theory.
Ricardo's computer pic was "Win her over with chloroform." Anyone who has ever looked around in a Spencer's has seen similar plaques, stickers, etc. The people have a 50's look about them, and the one that comes to my mind is "Beer. Helping ugly people get l**d since 1854" or some year. It may be in bad taste, but it's still a joke. Then I factor in Casey and Ricardo broke up in April, but she is still 'intimate' with him as of June 9th. This doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where the woman would see a pic on myspace that is clearly a joke, and start freaking out about this guy, who she is clearly willing to have sex with, chloroforming her so he can rape her. There were 2 online searches for chloroform before Caylee went missing. Chloroform was found in the trunk of the car. Decomp was found in the trunk of the car. Caylee was found dead. No physical trauma was found on the bones. Duct tape was found over her mouth area.
When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.
JMO.
Lanie

Lanie
01-27-2009, 11:17 AM
I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

LMAO. You have a point, laundry always tires me out...
Lanie

Steely Dan
01-27-2009, 11:20 AM
I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

Too true! :woohoo:

ibyoungr
01-27-2009, 11:43 AM
respectively snipped.....

When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.JMO.
Lanie

Lanie, I posted this same thought earlier. ITA! I know we have not agreed on something of the theories.. but.. I am with you on this one!!

I really am wondering if Cindy cleaned the car so well.. then how come the maggots, dirt and hair was still in the car? I would think the report would have stated that the car appeared to have been recently cleaned.


In the beginning, I visualized Cindy "using the Bissell" to scrub out the trunk. The more I read about items in the car... the less likely I am inclined to visualize her, George or even Casey using chemicals to clean out the trunk. I now visualize.. the items being removed from the car by Cindy and the doors and trunk opened up to "air out."

Prosecution has evidently not released all of their evidence. I wonder if we are not seeing some reciept for an online purchase of chloroform?

My basic theory is she was suffocated in a rage. I also like JWG's theory of her left sleeping in the hot car in the garage theory. However, I need just ONE MORE PIECE of SOLID EVIDENCE and I will be sold on the chloroform. (container? scent on matteress?, reciept? rag?)

I wish an expert who has reviewed the documents would come on an explain.. at what level is the chloroform consider to be high...

Here is a transcript from NG. Keep in mind this is BEFORE the actual forensic results were released in a document dump and NG likes to exaggerate...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/05/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let`s go to -- now, that`s a first. I`m going to an expert on this subject, when none of us are. To Jeff Flowers. He is chemical and technical director of Flowers Chemical Laboratories, joining us out of Orlando. Jeff, explain, would a -- just a nose test by a human detect chloroform in the car trunk?

JEFF FLOWERS, CHEMIST, FLOWERS CHEMICAL LABORATORIES: Probably not. These tests were conducted probably using gas chromatography analysis. So no noses were involved.

GRACE: Explain to me -- when you say how significant this is that the air, even the air in the car trunk was saturated with chloroform, what does that mean and why is that so significant to you?

FLOWERS: Well, chloroform is a very volatile chemical, but it is a liquid at room temperature. However, in a car trunk, it`s going to be sealed. It`s going to be not exactly air-tight, but it`s going to be close. And it would be retained on the surfaces of the rug and so forth that`s in the trunk.

GRACE: The fact that the air was saturated, what does that mean to you, evidentiary?

FLOWERS: The question that it brings up -- I mean, chloroform, of course, is an anesthetic. But it also acts -- it`s much more dense than air. So if a child was placed in the trunk and the room -- and the trunk sealed and it was saturated with chloroform from the rag that was used, there would be no oxygen at the bottom of the trunk.

GRACE: I don`t know what that means. You`re speaking to a layperson. As far as proving a case at trial, what does it mean the air was saturated with chloroform, even the air...

FLOWERS: It would be difficult to breathe in the trunk.

GRACE: OK. OK. How much chloroform would it take to cause the air in the car trunk to be saturated with chloroform?

FLOWERS: The liquid chloroform that would be present on the rag would be -- would continue to release itself as a vapor, and that would continue to push away the oxygen from the bottom.

GRACE: OK. Now I understand. Let`s go to Alexis Weed, our show staffer researching chloroform. Alexis, how difficult is it to buy chloroform on line?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE STAFFER: In fact, Nancy, it wasn`t difficult at all. Within a matter of about 10 to 15 minutes, I was able to conduct an on-line research and find chloroform and a vendor that was willing to sell it to me.

GRACE: Alexis, what kind of a search -- did you go to Google or Yahoo!? What did you plug in to pop up buying chloroform on line?

WEED: Nancy, in this case, it was a Google search. And I typed in "purchase chloroform," and that generated a number of chemical and laboratory supply companies, on which I clicked and followed links until I found one that was willing to sell the product.

GRACE: How much?

WEED: I could get anywhere from 100 milliliters all the way up to 20 liters.

GRACE: How much did it cost?

WEED: $63 for the 100 milliliters and upwards of $700 for 20 liters.

GRACE: Would they allow you to take a credit card, if you wanted to use a credit card?

WEED: In fact, that was the only way by which I could make the transaction go through. I needed to select a type of credit card, type in my name, the expiration date and sign an acknowledgement that I understood I was only using the product for limited purposes of research, development, manufacturing, and then I could complete my purchase.

I need to see evidence of this purchase! I do think Casey is capable of at ordering something on line.

BondJamesBond
01-27-2009, 11:52 AM
Just a suggestion...

Delving into the chloroform via dryer sheets might be best served on the chloroform thread. FWIW, the title alone would tend to draw WS's w/ expertise in chemistry...and, making it would also make the info easier to locate later.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3035194&highlight=chloroform#post3035194

*[subliminal bump]*

eddeva
01-27-2009, 12:00 PM
I forget where that's from. :waitasec:

i think it's from the jailhouse call where casey's focus is on getting tony's number.

casey - 'you don't know what my involvement is in (can't make it out)?'

cindy - 'casey,'

casey - 'mom'

cindy - 'no, i don't know what your involvement is sweetheart. you're not telling me where she's at.'

casey - 'b/c I don't &%^$*Ł! know where she's at, you're kidding me!'

blah blah blah

Steely Dan
01-27-2009, 12:08 PM
i think it's from the jailhouse call where casey's focus is on getting tony's number.

casey - 'you don’t know what my involvement is in (can't make it out)?'

cindy - 'casey,'

casey - 'mom'

cindy - 'no, i don’t know what your involvement is sweetheart. you're not telling me where she’s at.'

casey - 'b/c I don’t &%^$*Ł! know where she’s at, you're kidding me!'

blah blah blah

Thanks, I think you're right.

natsound
01-27-2009, 01:07 PM
I agree chloroform was an element in Caylee's death. I still don't think Casey made it or bought it, I think she stole it (maybe lifted it from the tattoo parlor) or was given it, though the search warrant for chloroform ingredients or reciepts kind of puts a dent in that theory.
Ricardo's computer pic was "Win her over with chloroform." Anyone who has ever looked around in a Spencer's has seen similar plaques, stickers, etc. The people have a 50's look about them, and the one that comes to my mind is "Beer. Helping ugly people get l**d since 1854" or some year. It may be in bad taste, but it's still a joke. Then I factor in Casey and Ricardo broke up in April, but she is still 'intimate' with him as of June 9th. This doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where the woman would see a pic on myspace that is clearly a joke, and start freaking out about this guy, who she is clearly willing to have sex with, chloroforming her so he can rape her. There were 2 online searches for chloroform before Caylee went missing. Chloroform was found in the trunk of the car. Decomp was found in the trunk of the car. Caylee was found dead. No physical trauma was found on the bones. Duct tape was found over her mouth area.
When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.
JMO.
Lanie

Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.

abbra
01-27-2009, 01:34 PM
From the very beginning the family and defense have been trying to pin Caylees death on anyone else. Remember GA brought up Jessie G's name during questioning by police. Of course theres Zanny the Nanny, Now Ricardo, also under suspicion have been the uitility worker who called police about the garbage bag and I think LP took a lie detector test for the FBI-
There have also been a list of former friends of Caseys who suspicion has been cast on because of their association with Casey and other ficticious persons Casey has made up.

What I would like to know is how JB is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.

This case is a fraud and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon for their five minutes of fame.
Keep Baez down in Florida. We already have enough incompetant shifty lawyers up here in NY. We don't need any more.

For the record I am surprised Mark Garagos hasn't jumped on the Casey Bandwagon the way he did the Scott Peterson Bandwagon.
Maybe he is waiting for an invite.:rolleyes:

natsound
01-27-2009, 01:42 PM
What I would like to know is how Jose Baez is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.



snipped

The lies will not get her convicted of murder, nor should they. We hope the forensic evidence will get her convicted, but you ask how is Baez going to get his client off (or attempt to). Let's not forget, he has a dream team working for the defense. Their job is to poke holes in the evidence presented. Huge police errors came to light in the OJ Simpson case, and the world was shocked when he was acquitted amid such strong evidence. Let's hope and pray the same thing doesn't happen here. A smart jury will look at what the evidence says, regardless of the smoke and mirrors presented by Baez and friends.

Marina2
01-27-2009, 01:43 PM
I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

Rumpole
01-27-2009, 01:50 PM
I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee
Doesn't make much sense to me.
I like Mark F. He does often seem to have good sources and tie info together well. Here he seems to be having a bad day? In fairness to him, it was early on and we have all learnt a lot since.

Marina2
01-27-2009, 01:55 PM
Doesn't make much sense to me.
I like Mark F. He does often seem to have good sources and tie info together well. Here he seems to be having a bad day? In fairness to him, it was early on and we have all learnt a lot since.
Thanks. I thought it was just me missing something. I can't go along with the fairness to Fuhrman though as this was taped only five days ago!

Rumpole
01-27-2009, 01:59 PM
Thanks. I thought it was just me missing something. I can't go along with the fairness to Fuhrman though as this was taped only five days ago!
I missunderstood?
I thought it was older clip. That is bad!
What in heavens name is he on about?

BondJamesBond
01-27-2009, 02:01 PM
I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

You know, marina, I had an offline discussion on this very point.

I think my subject line was somethin' like "WTF!?!?!?!?"

Mark's usually on the mark, IMHO [pun thoroughly intended :bang:] He seemed very uneasy puting these comments out there. 90% of me wants to think he was expecting a different question and sorta morphed his answer and muffed it...10% of me wants to think...What if?...:waitasec:

Rumpole
01-27-2009, 02:04 PM
I re_read and I think what good ole buddy Mark is saying is simply: he thinks GA saw the body in the trunk on 24th (That is debatable), and it must then have been moved (Dumped) before the car was towed on 30th. Apart from GA actually seeing the body, which is contentious, that is not an unreasonable scenario?

Marina2
01-27-2009, 02:04 PM
I missunderstood?
I thought it was older clip. That is bad!
What in heavens name is he on about?

Like you, I've always afforded Mr Fuhrman a good amount of weight in what he says. He was either having a bad day as you said or he knows something we don't. :waitasec:

Steely Dan
01-27-2009, 03:36 PM
From the very beginning the family and defense have been trying to pin Caylees death on anyone else. Remember GA brought up Jessie G's name during questioning by police. Of course theres Zanny the Nanny, Now Ricardo, also under suspicion have been the uitility worker who called police about the garbage bag and I think LP took a lie detector test for the FBI-
There have also been a list of former friends of Caseys who suspicion has been cast on because of their association with Casey and other ficticious persons Casey has made up.

What I would like to know is how JB is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.

This case is a fraud and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon for their five minutes of fame.
Keep Baez down in Florida. We already have enough incompetant shifty lawyers up here in NY. We don't need any more.

For the record I am surprised Mark Garagos hasn't jumped on the Casey Bandwagon the way he did the Scott Peterson Bandwagon.
Maybe he is waiting for an invite.:rolleyes:


I think Geragos would offer his assistance to JB but I think this case is too hinky for even him to take. :eek:


snipped

The lies will not get her convicted of murder, nor should they. We hope the forensic evidence will get her convicted, but you ask how is Baez going to get his client off (or attempt to). Let's not forget, he has a dream team working for the defense. Their job is to poke holes in the evidence presented. Huge police errors came to light in the OJ Simpson case, and the world was shocked when he was acquitted amid such strong evidence. Let's hope and pray the same thing doesn't happen here. A smart jury will look at what the evidence says, regardless of the smoke and mirrors presented by Baez and friends.

I disagree a little. I would be willing to convict of at manslaughter based on her statements alone. She was obviously trying to derail the investigation with her lies.



I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

I have believe the body was moved after the cadaver dogs cleared the area. I don't know how that works with Fuhrman's timeline though. :confused:

Marina2
01-27-2009, 08:17 PM
HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

Steely Dan
01-27-2009, 08:31 PM
HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.

Indigo
01-27-2009, 08:35 PM
HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

I'm still fixed on the 18th. I think the chloroform was trapped in the trunk environment early on before it had much of a chance to dissipate. It may even have eaten through the plastic bag--causing decomp leakage into the trunk.

The sodium levels (indicating less than 2.6 days), Casey borrowing the shovel and her cell phone pings all make this day stand out to me.

Rumpole
01-27-2009, 11:06 PM
Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

TxMother67
01-27-2009, 11:18 PM
Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, or may not, have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

Interesting!!! When did the duct tape come in and why? Like my Granny would say "You have a good 'thinker'!":)

suspicious1
01-28-2009, 12:54 AM
I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.

I think so too. BUT when would he have had the chance to do it. My guess was after her first arrest. What are your thoughts?

Steely Dan
01-28-2009, 03:11 AM
I think so too. BUT when would he have had the chance to do it. My guess was after her first arrest. What are your thoughts?

IMO, it would have been after the cadaver dogs swept the area. I don't know when that was though.

If the witness' that claim to have seen a man and woman by the airport are to be believed then I would put it in between those times.

My theory is that they did originally bury her by the airport but when those witness' came forward they became concerned that a search would be done in that area and decided to move the body to a place that had already been searched.

I believe it was one day very early in the morning that LA transported the body and just threw it a little away from the road because he was afraid of being seen. He figured that since the area had been swept already nobody would look there anyway.

The only problem with this theory is if cadaver dogs were taken to the spot by the airport and they didn't hit out there then the body was probably never there. I don't know if cadaver dogs ever went by the airport or not.

I think LA became nervous about somebody finding the bag when the vegetation started to thin in the fall and he hired DC to go out and get the bag and move it to the empty house formerly owned by a Gonzalez family. I believe it was LA on the phone with DC. Just my theory.

txsvicki
01-28-2009, 03:20 AM
Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.


I agree. So far, the chloroform is a big part of the evidence.

natsound
01-28-2009, 08:00 AM
I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.


I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO! :)

natsound
01-28-2009, 08:08 AM
Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

So do you believe Caylee was intentionally murdered?

Interesting theory, HP. I've long believed the backing into the garage was to try to clean the trunk, but since dirt was found in the trunk I'm wondering if she tried to clean it at all. Perhaps the backing in was, at first, to try to bury Caylee, then on the last day to gather the bags, the tape, and the sticker.

It's Not the Nanny
01-28-2009, 08:09 AM
I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO! :)

Totally agree!!!

I think the A's may be charged for giving false statements or OJ but I don't think they ever laid eyes on the trash bag that had Caylee inside.

Marina2
01-28-2009, 09:39 AM
Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

Hp, I've had similar thoughts as yours. The thought of Caylee being misdiagnosed weighed heavily on my mind for awhile. I don't even remember why I discarded it now. I think I was trying to use it as a way to extend the disposal date to the 27th and realized Caylee would have died of hyperthermia within hours in that trunk. Still, it could have happened that way and extended the TOD further into June, maybe a day as you propose. Something to think about. The gas and incinerating the body was a thought I had for awhile. After reading the latest documents I can believe she contemplated this since her gas gauge worked fine.

As far as being repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to find a babysitter I don't see the flurry of calls this way. It seems KC would have called many more people to find a sitter before giving up to the point of killing Caylee. I know, we're not talking about a normal person but still... KC had a lot of friends and it seems she could have found a sitter with a little more effort.

It's amazing how all of us can take the same data and come up with theories that are so different. Most of them are very workable too.
Bond has managed to include the chloroform in his theory, something I badly want to include with mine but I haven't found a way to work it in, yet! JWG's theory is so simple and normal. I could totally adopt it if I weren't hopelessly married to mine!

FWIW, I want to tell everyone how incredibly smart I think you all are.
I love reading the theories thread. :clap:

ibyoungr
01-28-2009, 10:48 AM
I do not think LA went back and moved the body. Why?

Because he would have buried it. Why just lay it on top of the ground. Also LE believes the body has been there before Faye because the bones were scattered with the pattern from the water flow as the water receded in that area.

Lee is in trouble for sending out the PI. I believe he was talking to him on the phone. Lee had info he did not share with the police.

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 11:34 AM
OK...some fascinating reading on the "All about chloroform.." thread.

Based on what I'm reading there. I hafta change my mind to Rx o.d. aggravated by heat-stress/dehydration, and/or asphyxiation due to the tape & vomiting brought on by same :( as the contributing cause(s) of death unless/until we get more info released to suggest otherwise.

In a nutshell...the elevated chloroform in the trunk was the result of the oxygen-defficient environment it created as decomp gasses being produced displaced the air. This had the effect of increasing the level of chloroform naturally occuring from human decomposition above typical levels. Chloroform searches on the pc were coincidental.

IMHO, Casey used OTC(s), as JWG has suggested, and/or Rx left from her bruised rib prescription in May to sedate Caylee and leave her in the Pontiac (or, plausible, albeit less likely, Amy's totalled car under a car cover) outside Tony's Apt. The duct tape was necessary owing to the not-fast-enough acting OTC/Rx and Casey's desire to get it done covertly. :furious: