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Theonly1
01-28-2009, 12:24 PM
As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 12:41 PM
The devil is in the details...
*snipped*
Actually, the devil is in the OC Jail :devil:

Very interesting post, Theonly 1. Could use a thread of its own.

:twocents: Casey may have simply kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac to help her pull of the "I'm just gettin' in from work" thing more easily under any circumstance she wanted/needed (e.g. arriving @ Tony's, arriving @ G&C's, leaving G&C's, etc.)

If you're interested, I posted on the "6/9 vs. 6/15" thread some thoughts supporting why IMHO George's account of Casey & Caylee leaving was probably told from his memory of 6/9. Per my comment above re: slacks...methinks that was prolly a pretty typical "I'm going to work" outfit...she used it plenty of times for this purpose.

Consider that the slacks were there in the Pontiac as of 6/27. We don't know what their adventures held in store for them between 6/16-6/27. IMHO, Casey just used them to fool Tony as-needed closer to 6/27.

Lanie
01-28-2009, 12:49 PM
I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

I agree, this interview with MF left me thinking, "huh?"
I also wonder. The 31 days seem so emphatic. It somewhat implies she was counting the days since the last time she saw Caylee. Counting as normal people do, this does put the date at June 14th. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is she wasn't counting the days, and she figured it had been about a month since she killed Caylee , mistakenly thought there were 31 days in June, and said the '31 days' to sound more dramatic.
As far as George, I don't believe he saw them on June 16th. I refer to it as 'he lied', but I don't know if it was all that nefarious. Let's face it, these people stuck to June 9th as the day Caylee went missing until the Father's Day video was found, and even then, there ended up being a spat between Cindy and Yuri, because Cindy wouldn't get on the ball and verify with her mother it was in fact June 15th. IMO, a person would think this distraught grandmother would, when reminded with the fact she visited her father on Father's Day with the missing child, at least look at a calender, and have a memory it was actually Father's Day, June 15th!!! But I digress... Because of them being so screwed up on the dates, I do think it's possible George remembers Casey and Caylee leaving on some day when he was watching the news/food channel, just not the day in question. It's also just as possible, because of the bizarre behavior by this family, he made the whole thing up.
JMO
Lanie

Theonly1
01-28-2009, 12:49 PM
*snipped*
Actually, the devil is in the OC Jail :devil:

Very interesting post, Theonly 1. Could use a thread of its own.

:twocents: Casey may have simply kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac to help her pull of the "I'm just gettin' in from work" thing more easily under any circumstance she wanted/needed (e.g. arriving @ Tony's, arriving @ G&C's, leaving G&C's, etc.)

If you're interested, I posted on the "6/9 vs. 6/15" thread some thoughts supporting why IMHO George's account of Casey & Caylee leaving was probably told from his memory of 6/9. Per my comment above re: slacks...methinks that was prolly a pretty typical "I'm going to work" outfit...she used it plenty of times for this purpose.

Consider that the slacks were there in the Pontiac as of 6/27. We don't know what their adventures held in store for them between 6/16-6/27. IMHO, Casey just used them to fool Tony as-needed closer to 6/27.

Yes, Bond, but GA was batting 0% on his recollection compared to the facts as I know them. If he was going "by memory" of what Casey wore but got Caylee's outfit correct that would be 50%.

It just seems too "pat" to me that the clothes and items we hear about are the ones found in the car!

Even Casey makes mention to LE that when Caylee allegedly called on July 14th and spoke to Casey (yes, I know it was a blatant lie) that Caylee mentioned her book (like the video). Casey knew full well (in my opinion) that she dumped that book with Caylee (and the other stuff she had with her from Father's Day left in the trunk) and incorporated it into her story because she knew she had to place those items with Zenaida!

I would even bet that Caylee's shoes will factor into this somehow because wasn't Casey mentioning that Caylee was talking about her shoes on the non-existent July 14th call?

Steely Dan
01-28-2009, 12:50 PM
As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

When did she say that?

Marina2
01-28-2009, 12:53 PM
Theonly1, I think GA lied too. If he did, why? Because, in retrospect, he knew that Caylee was killed in that house on that night. He wanted to remove the house and the fight the night before from the murder. I too thought CA's comment about the breathing she heard through the door was strange. She could have just said "I heard them getting up" or "I heard them moving around" but, no, she wanted to highlight the fact that breaths were heard (the nurse in her) so they were in fact, alive on that morning. She lied about the fight with KC as well. All was normal, etc.

I posted much these same thoughts in the "Where do you think Caylee died" thread earlier this morning. IMO, GA lied and he did it for a reason. Caylee died the night before or early am in that house.

suspicious1
01-28-2009, 12:56 PM
As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

Hey, Theonly 1, that was fascinating!:clap:

You might be on to something. I never thought about it like that.

Skully
01-28-2009, 12:57 PM
The pants were definitely used to look like she was going to work. She may have just changed into them and out of them from the car. But I think George had his dates confused also for a long time. Seeing the pants in the car just made him remember them. But how did he remember what Caylee was wearing? I can't tell you details of what my husband had on a month ago. I never understood how he could do that.

Do we know if they took a hamper from the A's house? If the laundry bag was in fact a liner to a hamper and they do make them, it will have fibers inside the hamper. That proves where the bag came from. All they need now is one print off that duct tape.

Theonly1
01-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Theonly1, I think GA lied too. If he did, why? Because, in retrospect, he knew that Caylee was killed in that house on that night. He wanted to remove the house and the fight the night before from the murder. I too thought CA's comment about the breathing she heard through the door was strange. She could have just said "I heard them getting up" or "I heard them moving around" but, no, she wanted to highlight the fact that breaths were heard (the nurse in her) so they were in fact, alive on that morning. She lied about the fight with KC as well. All was normal, etc.

I posted much these same thoughts in the "Where do you think Caylee died" thread earlier this morning. IMO, GA lied and he did it for a reason. Caylee died the night before or early am in that house.

Yeah, I don't KNOW if the family knew she was dead on June 16th. I am not willing to go that far for the date of June 16th. I presume that after the fight (if Casey did not up and bolt with Caylee) that she locked herself in her bedroom (or Caylee's bedroom) and told the fam to 'f-off'.

In my speculation, the family was desperate for this knock-down, drag out fight not to be known, and, thus, the tucking into bed story, the heard them breathing story, the left in the morning story complete with guesstimation about what they wore.

Don't family members basically give each other a W-I-D-E berth after a fight? I know mine does and we don't go head to head.

Gma Kat
01-28-2009, 01:01 PM
Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.

Holy smokes! (my bold) That would explain why she was saying she was getting the house to her friends...

Skully
01-28-2009, 01:01 PM
Just a thought here, Cindy in the 911 call gave a different description of clothing for Caylee as last seen in. She was telling the operator what Caylee had on and I guess KC was giving her the description of what she was wearing, but again it is a month. Now KC would remember what she last put on her, but not GA.

elle1919
01-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Just a thought here, Cindy in the 911 call gave a different description of clothing for Caylee as last seen in. She was telling the operator what Caylee had on and I guess KC was giving her the description of what she was wearing, but again it is a month. Now KC would remember what she last put on her, but not GA.

wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

Lanie
01-28-2009, 01:03 PM
I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO! :)

I agree with you that the rest of the A's had nothing to do with moving a body, and it was dumped where it was found. These people are dysfunctional, but I don't think they are complicit.
Lanie

Marina2
01-28-2009, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I don't KNOW if the family knew she was dead on June 16th. I am not willing to go that far for the date of June 16th. I presume that after the fight (if Casey did not up and bolt with Caylee) that she locked herself in her bedroom (or Caylee's bedroom) and told the fam to 'f-off'.

In my speculation, the family was desperate for this knock-down, drag out fight not to be known, and, thus, the tucking into bed story, the heard them breathing story, the left in the morning story complete with guesstimation about what they wore.

Don't family members basically give each other a W-I-D-E berth after a fight? I know mine does and we don't go head to head.

Exactly, certainly not hugs and kisses, normal day. The family didn't know she died that night. Ga gave his statement about seeing them leave a month after the fact. He did that because, in retrospect, he figured out what had happened.

If you read my post from about 8:30 this morning on the "Where do you think Caylee died?" thread, you'll see what I think happened that night and morning. It's just as you present here. I so glad that someone else thinks it may have occurred this way...I was very alone with my theory! :)

Skully
01-28-2009, 01:07 PM
wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.

Marina2
01-28-2009, 01:18 PM
IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.
CA was describing KC's clothes. If you listen again you'll hear the operator's next question is "Does she have any weapons?". They were talking about KC.

suspicious1
01-28-2009, 01:19 PM
wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

I must've missed that one too! If you find it please fill me in. Thanks a bunch.

CPP
01-28-2009, 01:19 PM
With the discovery of the sticker on the duct taped skull, I think its possible that KC used the chloroform to knock lil Caylee out; then applied the duct tape and sticker (I can even imagine her kissing that sticker), after which she simply pinched little Caylee's nose until she died. I think it all may have taken place in the car.

No way it was an accident that KC panicked over. There's no need to duct tape the mouth of a child (or anyone else for that matter) whose death is an accident.

JWG
01-28-2009, 01:20 PM
IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.

Hey Bern,

I think what you are recalling is Cindy telling the operator what KC was wearing. There is no description in the 911 calls of what Caylee was wearing.

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 01:20 PM
Bern: Excellent catch re: 911 clothing description...looking fwd to what you find. Casey would certainly be imparting diff clothes by this time to suggest k-napping

Theonly1: Wow! The 7/15-non-existent-phone-call "shoes" comment always seemed outta place to me, but, I had no clue why. :doh: Thanks!!

Also...I didn't go into detail above...just on the 6/16 vs. 6/9 thread...that George's description would've been what Caylee was wearing on 6/9...not 6/16...so the slacks were just luck-o-the-draw...albeit a safe bet if she used these often as suggested. I'm sure I sound like a broken record @ this point, but, IMHO, the pings support Casey was going to Lee's on these dates after leaving G&C's. On 6/16 she returned to G&C's from Lee's briefly before going to Tony's. She prolly just changed outta the "work clothes de jour" @ Lee's...tossed 'em in the floorboard with her other stuff when she left Lee's...a routine.

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Hey Bern,

I think what you are recalling is Cindy telling the operator what KC was wearing. There is no description in the 911 calls of what Caylee was wearing.

IIRC, wasn't it during the interview w/ Melich @ Universal. IIRC, that's where she said Caylee's hair was pulled back in a pony tail???? :confused:

Bev
01-28-2009, 01:27 PM
I think it more likely that she wore the "work clothes" to the boyfriend's house to maintain the fantasy. I believe that she gave that baby some otc drug, the baby vomited, it wen into her lungs and she "drowned". She panicked when she found the baby dead, made the flurry of phone calls to her parents/etc and when they didn't answer, it gave her time to think of what it looked like and how she was going to explain it. She wrapped her up in the blanket, put her in the laundry bag and stuffed her up against the wheel well. I would imagine that at one point she laid the body down in the back yard and pulled the car into the garage.

ibyoungr
01-28-2009, 01:50 PM
This is a screenprint of Casey's written statement to the police about what Caylee was wearing on the day she went missing:

Marina2
01-28-2009, 02:07 PM
This is a screenprint of Casey's written statement to the police about what Caylee was wearing on the day she went missing:

Thank you. Do you know if this matches what GA said she was wearing? I remember what he said KC had on but not Caylee.

ibyoungr
01-28-2009, 02:11 PM
This is what the detectives found in the bag regarding clothing. It does not state the color of the shirt. The shirt in the Father's day video was a light blue or green. Remember.. they went swimming when they got home so.. the shirt on Caylee in the video was probably not the shirt she was in on the
16th of June or later in the day on the 15th.

**Warning graphical description**
I am sure the clothes were not "on" because as the tissue distengrated there were no more muscles left to hold the bones together. As the bones became detached...and the water from the flooding washed the bones apart from each other the clothing would have appeared to been "off" the body.
Sorry

ibyoungr
01-28-2009, 02:11 PM
Thank you. Do you know if this matches what GA said she was wearing? I remember what he said KC had on but not Caylee.

Off to find George's statment.. BRB

ibyoungr
01-28-2009, 02:35 PM
I found this in the last document dump.. this is evidence that they went to find at the house after the discovery. The snip is from the police document.

StickPoint
01-28-2009, 02:37 PM
So, I'm going out on a limb here and theorizing myself. My thoughts are of course my own, and probably not that original...


I think Caylee was often sedated. The night of the 15th and the supposed fight, she took the child with her out of spite, but then realized she had plans that did not include her daughter. So she sedated her, and put her in the trunk so she could go and do as she pleased.
Upon returning some time later, the chloroform and whatever else she may have used took that child to another place from this earth.
However, KC didn't care enough about the child to see as it anything other than a "get out of jail free card" and went about her business.
Coming in the next few days, she worked it out in her head the story of what "could have" happened to her daughter. (Zani, kidnapping, etc, etc)
She wouldn't have gone to police cause she still would have been in trouble because of the sedatives, and neglect.

Again, I don't think she intentionally killed her but didn't care enough about her to report it, cause after all she is the number 1 in her book and it was all about preserving her life. If she did intentionally kill this child and this is all the forethought she had to the disposal of the body we are all giving her WAY too much credit and she belongs on the Darwin awards page... but I digress.

So the story, the tape, the sticker, all of it just speaks out to me that it may have happened this way.

Skully
01-28-2009, 02:42 PM
CA was describing KC's clothes. If you listen again you'll hear the operator's next question is "Does she have any weapons?". They were talking about KC.

I stand corrected, I went back and that description is of what KC was wearing. Sorry

Rumpole
01-28-2009, 02:47 PM
So do you believe Caylee was intentionally murdered?

Interesting theory, HP. I've long believed the backing into the garage was to try to clean the trunk, but since dirt was found in the trunk I'm wondering if she tried to clean it at all. Perhaps the backing in was, at first, to try to bury Caylee, then on the last day to gather the bags, the tape, and the sticker.
Not so much "Intentionally" , more "unthinkingly".

That is not ment to lessen the crime in any way whatsoever. I think KC was hyper angry and treated Caylee with no regard at all. Just an object. Taped and thrown in the trunk.
There was no "premeditation" as in a plan and getting equipment ready etc. Obviously no plan in place to dispose of a body or even explain Caylee's absense. The one sensible thing I can attribute to LP (to be fair, I do not see much of him at all), is his assessment that KC lives life from one 10min interval to the next.

debs
01-28-2009, 03:36 PM
I agree, this interview with MF left me thinking, "huh?"
I also wonder. The 31 days seem so emphatic. It somewhat implies she was counting the days since the last time she saw Caylee. Counting as normal people do, this does put the date at June 14th. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is she wasn't counting the days, and she figured it had been about a month since she killed Caylee , mistakenly thought there were 31 days in June, and said the '31 days' to sound more dramatic.
As far as George, I don't believe he saw them on June 16th. I refer to it as 'he lied', but I don't know if it was all that nefarious. Let's face it, these people stuck to June 9th as the day Caylee went missing until the Father's Day video was found, and even then, there ended up being a spat between Cindy and Yuri, because Cindy wouldn't get on the ball and verify with her mother it was in fact June 15th. IMO, a person would think this distraught grandmother would, when reminded with the fact she visited her father on Father's Day with the missing child, at least look at a calender, and have a memory it was actually Father's Day, June 15th!!! But I digress... Because of them being so screwed up on the dates, I do think it's possible George remembers Casey and Caylee leaving on some day when he was watching the news/food channel, just not the day in question. It's also just as possible, because of the bizarre behavior by this family, he made the whole thing up.
JMO
Lanie

Lanie,

Don't you find it curious that Casey would be sitting at home on that Monday downloading a video onto her computer of an event where her daughter was reading a book to Papa? That book which many here think was found at the crime scene. The last person verified by a source other than the Anthony family to have had Caylee with her is Cindy. EVERYONE brought up June 9 until the video proved Caylee was alive on June 15. EVERYONE, including Granny Shirley.

Here's a theory for ya. How's about the weekend before June 9, Cindy and Casey have at a fight. Casey takes off without Caylee. We know from Tony that about the 9th she started staying there nearly every night, without Caylee. Cindy and George attempt to figure out how they're going to take care of Caylee. Cindy tells George that under no circumstances is he to let Casey into the house to see Caylee. She left, forget it. She doesn't get to keep messing things up. They struggle with the schedule that first week. Balancing their jobs with a toddler is pretty daunting, even if George doesn't have to go to work until 2 (to start at 3). Discovery docs in this last dump show that he was at work for 40 hours the week "ending" June 12 (Thursday to Thursday). It also was not unusual (according to Cindy's co-workers) for Caylee to be dropped off a couple times a week when Casey "was working" so the gaps COULD be filled with George dropping Caylee off at Cindy's work that week and Cindy simply telling people there that Casey dropped her off. Casey is off on her new adventure and the lies about work are now Tony's problem and the senior Anthony's are adjusting to their new routine.

We know Casey is in the house during that week (9-13) because of computer activity. I'm going to guess that Casey's feelings of "getting to know" George again after being distant for so long has everything to do with him bending the rules while Cindy is at work to allow Casey to come over. Casey gets to pretend that she's working while Tony is at school, and George gets to feel like he's important to Casey. It's a win/win, and Cindy can be in the dark. Though something must have triggered in her at least once, because in the jail house visits, at one point, Cindy asks Casey about things that were missing from the house. That ring, for instance. I'd bet money that Cindy took that from Casey at one point in a snit because it had been stolen or purchased with Cindy's money. Casey went searching for it and found it, and Cindy-the-hyper-vigilant noticed it was gone.



.................anyway, that's ONE theory of why the 9th was so memorable.

Theonly1
01-28-2009, 03:45 PM
This is what the detectives found in the bag regarding clothing. It does not state the color of the shirt. The shirt in the Father's day video was a light blue or green. Remember.. they went swimming when they got home so.. the shirt on Caylee in the video was probably not the shirt she was in on the
16th of June or later in the day on the 15th.

**Warning graphical description**
I am sure the clothes were not "on" because as the tissue distengrated there were no more muscles left to hold the bones together. As the bones became detached...and the water from the flooding washed the bones apart from each other the clothing would have appeared to been "off" the body.
Sorry

Who said they went swimming? Answer: Cindy and/or George?

Ha!

I don't think they went swimming.

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 03:48 PM
I found this in the last document dump.. this is evidence that they went to find at the house after the discovery. The snip is from the police document.

Oddly...I think that is the same description I thought George gave for the family friend seeing Caylee @ the mall ~6/12.

Theonly1
01-28-2009, 03:49 PM
Oddly...I think that is the same description I thought George gave for the family friend seeing Caylee @ the mall ~6/12.

I know! I was just typing that.

I think it was one of Caylee's outfits, just not the one worn on the day of her death (just moo).

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 03:50 PM
OT: Would be interested to hear if anyone that loves to peruse the Caylee pics has spotted any shirts w/ iron on letters...

Stocirpa
01-28-2009, 04:16 PM
It recently occurred to me that Caylee's death on June 16, 2008 was precipitated by and was the logical consequence of a specific set of circumstances which neither Casey nor her parents were able to deal with in a mature and responsible manner: (1) When Casey's pregnancy was finally recognized by her parents in her seventh month, Casey informed her parents that she wanted to place the baby for adoption upon birth. (2) Cindy was adamant that she should keep the baby based on the premise that she and George would provide whatever supplemental childcare and financial support Casey would require. (3) While there can be little doubt that Casey, Cindy and George dearly loved Caylee, as time went by the burden of providing financial support became onerous to Cindy, since neither George nor Casey were regularly employed.
(4) As is her nature, Casey exploited her parents' generosity by failing to secure and maintain a full- or part-time job, by actively pursuing social activities and intimate relationships normally enjoyed by people who are single and by failing to ensure that Caylee was properly cared for at all times when she was in her custody. (5) As time went by, the care of Caylee became evermore problematic and burdensome to Casey, especially when she could not afford to pay a babysitter and when Cindy refused to provide babysitting services when Casey wanted to go partying in the evening. (6) While it is obvious that there was never a letup in Casey's evening social activities, heaven only knows where Caylee was kept when she was not physically in the care of her mother during the last few months of her extremely short life. Could she have been sedated with Chloroform and stashed away at some unknown location as suspected? Give me a break! There has never been a "Zanny the Nanny" any more than there has ever been a "tooth fairy." Casey preferred to live in a fantasy world, presenting a happy-go-lucky exterior personality to the outside world while, at the same time, continuously lying to and stealing from her family, friends and others. (8) Cindy consistently played an unwitting role in supporting Casey's negative behavior and actions by not only buying into the tall tales Casey told her but by actually coddling her at times when she should have been berating her. (7) Cindy's built-up anger and resentment towards Casey reached its boiling point on June 15, 2008 when a loud and violent verbal and physical altercation erupted between them which culminated in Cindy actually putting her hands around Casey's throat.

It was no mere coincidence that Casey chose to murder Caylee the next day, on June 16, 2008. Subsequent to the internet research she had conducted in March 2008, Casey had already carefully planned and scripted the murder of Caylee and had actually implemented or was about to implement the many critical components of that plan that she felt would support her script. Casey also knew exactly how she would murder Caylee although she had not as yet determined the date on which she would do so. While Casey surely recognized that her regular routine of sedating Caylee with Chloroform and stashing her away some place when her presence was not desired was not a permanent solution, she just as surely recognized that having her mother care for Caylee was no solution either as it generally resulted in her being subjected to Cindy's emotional tirades. Had Caylee's murder not been pre-planned prior to June 16, 2008, I do not believe her murder would have occurred on that date or on any subsequent date. It was the fact that Casey already had a murder plan and script in place on June 16, 2008 that provided the impetus for her to carry out her murder plan in the clearly evil, emotionally detached and deliberate manner in which she did. If truth be known, Casey honestly believed that her "unbelievable" script would entitle her to a "Get Home Free" card from her parents, law enforcement and the world at large.

The senseless murder of two-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, which has so outraged and distressed her grandparents, relatives and the citizens of this country demands JUSTICE and, as far as I am concerned, a court verdict of GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 05:52 PM
FWIW...

Have been taking a focused look @ 6/16 pings on that thread in the Sticky Forum to support/debunk the purpose of the "flurry" calls that afternoon. I'm concluding that these calls were indeed an attempt to establish Caylee-Care w/ Cindy by dropping Caylee @ Gentiva that afternoon as Casey had often done before.

Back on 11/20, a now-inactive WS, Joyce, commented on a "stall" in the trip to Tony's that afternoon (6/16). We briefly discussed the possibility of the "stall" being involved w/ sedating Caylee, and the repeated attempts to reach Cindy, and ultimately Amy that night were last-ditch efforts...and then we moved on.

Today, I'm snipping the following from discussion w/ JWG over on the 6/16 thread as it relates to this Theory...



...consistent with 10-minute-at-time-Caseythink...since Casey was attempting to establish Caylee-care while on her way to Tony's...it means she didn't have the OTC she needed to sedate Caylee with her...

....soo....

IF we'd had the ping info immediately when the case broke and could’ve ciphered it down to this point quickly...I would’ve marched LE over to collect security surveillance video of Casey buying the d@mn OTC’s @ one of the two pharmacies located well-within the ping locations @ 4:25PM during the break after Casey’s last call to Cindy’s cell prior to showing up near Tony’s:

CVS @ 7451 East Colonial Drive (same intersection as Amscot)
Walgreens @ 7325 Gatehouse Cir, Orlando
However, w/ surveil videos likely not kept longer than 30 days...Grrrrrr… :mad: perhaps this was among the receipts that were turned over to JB early in the case. If not paid in cash...perhaps a check or credit card transaction that has been traced. :prayer:


Joyce...wherever you are...nice work! :thumb:

wallflower67
01-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Two thoughts....

RE: Chloroform in the trunk

It was generally discussed in the early stages of the case upon the release of forensics supporting an elevated level of chloroform that stain removers, etc. utilize chloroform. More recently another poster suggested, yet I haven't seen much else of it...BOTH the elevated level of chloroform in the trunk AND at least one of the cadaver dog alerts in the backyard would possibly be explained by Cindy using her Bissel steam cleaner and some spot remover on the trunk. That poster suggested Cindy dumped the resulting water in the backyard, hence, the cadaver dog alert. I am liking this proposal more & more over time. I'd add to it that IIRC, the portion of the trunk that was stained was the removable mat over the spare tire, hence, the whole mat may have been taken to the backyard and cleaned there. As JWG has offered in the computer forensic search, chloroform searches on the PC in March may have been completely unrelated...just maybe...

This opens things up more for the use of other medications resulting in the o.d. of Caylee. Sadly, owing to the slow-acting nature of the OTC's Casey might've been accustomed to using...Casey may have applied the more-is-better principle since she would've been trying to be covert about Caylee being in the car. Furthermore, if Caylee was just drowsey...and not 'knocked out' by the Rx...the duct tape with the heart sticker may have come into play to enable Casey to get back to the apartment before her protracted absence became suspicious. As another poster suggested...the heart sticker made light of the situation and helped Casey forgive whatever guilt she might've felt, even if ever-so-briefly, for her actions. If Casey had been smokin'/drinkin' that afternoon and in a hurry to get back to the apartment...obviously exercising ueber-grossly poor judgement and negligent behavior...the tape getting caught in the hair would just be a detail she'd handle later...I mean...it is 10-min-@-time-Casey, right?!? :mad:

FWIW, IF...big IF...as she commented to Amy in texts, Casey had a bruised rib in May whilst she had the flu/cold. Casey commented to Amy 5/21 about having anti-inflammatory Rx to treat the flu & bruised rib, "Works for me! I'm not feeling worse. Found out I have a bruised rib. At least I have nice pills for my flu and I’ll be popping anti-inflammatories like there’s no tomorrow.". So...who knows what Rx Casey had in her purse. If she'd used OTC's to speed/extend Caylee's naps...maybe she just upped the ante w/ her own Rx on a spur of the moment decision when her 'flurry' of calls finally failed...7:20PM.
RE: Casey-think factoring into a few things...(e.g. the duct tape in hair, "spiteful b*tch", revenge/victim motivating her hasty/poor decisions)

Recommend watching the last released August Casey w/ G&C jailhouse video again...and the ramp up between Casey & Cindy. Cindy forces an issue => Casey's defense/distract/deflect mechanism kicks in...and Casey immediately becomes the victim..her actions are justified in her own way of thinking because, after all, she's the victim and no one understands...:furious:

Now...replay that sequence of behavior considering the last call Casey made to Cindy 6/16 7:06 PM that lasted 1 min 24 seconds. Cindy forced the issue of Casey becoming responsible for her daughter that night => Casey's actions become justified in her own mind. Last ditch attempt to Amy 13mins later...perhaps after the last dose of Rx has already been given...just gonna drop a drowsy/sleeping Caylee of with her, right? No luck...and the furious Casey you saw in that jailhouse video pulls out the duct tape. The state of mind you saw in that video is the state of mind she was in when that duct tape was applied...she was effectively in a rage. :furious: The heart sticker, in effect, to relieve her own guilt...IOW...directing the thought @ Caylee...this is Cindy's fault...not mine...I [Casey] love you [Caylee].

Casey writes, "Diary of Days" directing the first half-to Cindy.


"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = 6/16 7:06PM phone call. IOW...when you find out Caylee's gone, I [Casey] want you [Cindy] to remember that I [Casey] called you [Cindy] for help, and you[Cindy] refused to help me => This is your [Cindy's] fault...not mine [Casey's].

"With great power...comes great consequence"= You [Cindy] thought you had the power to control me [Casey] through Caylee. And see what happened! This is your [Cindy's] fault!

"What is given can be taken away" = I [Casey] have the power. I [Casey] gave you [Cindy] Caylee, and I [Casey] had the power to take her away.

The second verse, Casey directs to herself...


"On the worst of worst days...Remember the words spoken" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]

"Hold your head high, smile, laugh...tomorrow is a brand new day" = Remember...this is her [Cindy's] fault...not yours [Casey's]. Keep your [Casey's] power over her [Cindy]. Enjoy your [Casey's] life...otherwise, Cindy will have the joy of seeing you suffer from your own actions...can't let that happen at all costs = No admission of guilt...ever.

Since, IMHO, this line of thinking was powerful enough to fuel the murder...its certainly powerful enough to keep Casey from ever admitting to the crime..and giving Cindy the final/last victory.


:clap:Great post. Makes perfect sense. That is kind of how I interpreted Diary of Days too.

wallflower67
01-28-2009, 06:18 PM
It recently occurred to me that Caylee's death on June 16, 2008 was precipitated by and was the logical consequence of a specific set of circumstances which neither Casey nor her parents were able to deal with in a mature and responsible manner: (1) When Casey's pregnancy was finally recognized by her parents in her seventh month, Casey informed her parents that she wanted to place the baby for adoption upon birth. (2) Cindy was adamant that she should keep the baby based on the premise that she and George would provide whatever supplemental childcare and financial support Casey would require. (3) While there can be little doubt that Casey, Cindy and George dearly loved Caylee, as time went by the burden of providing financial support became onerous to Cindy, since neither George nor Casey were regularly employed.
(4) As is her nature, Casey exploited her parents' generosity by failing to secure and maintain a full- or part-time job, by actively pursuing social activities and intimate relationships normally enjoyed by people who are single and by failing to ensure that Caylee was properly cared for at all times when she was in her custody. (5) As time went by, the care of Caylee became evermore problematic and burdensome to Casey, especially when she could not afford to pay a babysitter and when Cindy refused to provide babysitting services when Casey wanted to go partying in the evening. (6) While it is obvious that there was never a letup in Casey's evening social activities, heaven only knows where Caylee was kept when she was not physically in the care of her mother during the last few months of her extremely short life. Could she have been sedated with Chloroform and stashed away at some unknown location as suspected? Give me a break! There has never been a "Zanny the Nanny" any more than there has ever been a "tooth fairy." Casey preferred to live in a fantasy world, presenting a happy-go-lucky exterior personality to the outside world while, at the same time, continuously lying to and stealing from her family, friends and others. (8) Cindy consistently played an unwitting role in supporting Casey's negative behavior and actions by not only buying into the tall tales Casey told her but by actually coddling her at times when she should have been berating her. (7) Cindy's built-up anger and resentment towards Casey reached its boiling point on June 15, 2008 when a loud and violent verbal and physical altercation erupted between them which culminated in Cindy actually putting her hands around Casey's throat.

It was no mere coincidence that Casey chose to murder Caylee the next day, on June 16, 2008. Subsequent to the internet research she had conducted in March 2008, Casey had already carefully planned and scripted the murder of Caylee and had actually implemented or was about to implement the many critical components of that plan that she felt would support her script. Casey also knew exactly how she would murder Caylee although she had not as yet determined the date on which she would do so. While Casey surely recognized that her regular routine of sedating Caylee with Chloroform and stashing her away some place when her presence was not desired was not a permanent solution, she just as surely recognized that having her mother care for Caylee was no solution either as it generally resulted in her being subjected to Cindy's emotional tirades. Had Caylee's murder not been pre-planned prior to June 16, 2008, I do not believe her murder would have occurred on that date or on any subsequent date. It was the fact that Casey already had a murder plan and script in place on June 16, 2008 that provided the impetus for her to carry out her murder plan in the clearly evil, emotionally detached and deliberate manner in which she did. If truth be known, Casey honestly believed that her "unbelievable" script would entitle her to a "Get Home Free" card from her parents, law enforcement and the world at large.

The senseless murder of two-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, which has so outraged and distressed her grandparents, relatives and the citizens of this country demands JUSTICE and, as far as I am concerned, a court verdict of GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!

:clap: Another great post. You've said it all. I never have to post again!

wallflower67
01-28-2009, 06:22 PM
It recently occurred to me that Caylee's death on June 16, 2008 was precipitated by and was the logical consequence of a specific set of circumstances which neither Casey nor her parents were able to deal with in a mature and responsible manner: (1) When Casey's pregnancy was finally recognized by her parents in her seventh month, Casey informed her parents that she wanted to place the baby for adoption upon birth. (2) Cindy was adamant that she should keep the baby based on the premise that she and George would provide whatever supplemental childcare and financial support Casey would require. (3) While there can be little doubt that Casey, Cindy and George dearly loved Caylee, as time went by the burden of providing financial support became onerous to Cindy, since neither George nor Casey were regularly employed.
(4) As is her nature, Casey exploited her parents' generosity by failing to secure and maintain a full- or part-time job, by actively pursuing social activities and intimate relationships normally enjoyed by people who are single and by failing to ensure that Caylee was properly cared for at all times when she was in her custody. (5) As time went by, the care of Caylee became evermore problematic and burdensome to Casey, especially when she could not afford to pay a babysitter and when Cindy refused to provide babysitting services when Casey wanted to go partying in the evening. (6) While it is obvious that there was never a letup in Casey's evening social activities, heaven only knows where Caylee was kept when she was not physically in the care of her mother during the last few months of her extremely short life. Could she have been sedated with Chloroform and stashed away at some unknown location as suspected? Give me a break! There has never been a "Zanny the Nanny" any more than there has ever been a "tooth fairy." Casey preferred to live in a fantasy world, presenting a happy-go-lucky exterior personality to the outside world while, at the same time, continuously lying to and stealing from her family, friends and others. (8) Cindy consistently played an unwitting role in supporting Casey's negative behavior and actions by not only buying into the tall tales Casey told her but by actually coddling her at times when she should have been berating her. (7) Cindy's built-up anger and resentment towards Casey reached its boiling point on June 15, 2008 when a loud and violent verbal and physical altercation erupted between them which culminated in Cindy actually putting her hands around Casey's throat.

It was no mere coincidence that Casey chose to murder Caylee the next day, on June 16, 2008. Subsequent to the internet research she had conducted in March 2008, Casey had already carefully planned and scripted the murder of Caylee and had actually implemented or was about to implement the many critical components of that plan that she felt would support her script. Casey also knew exactly how she would murder Caylee although she had not as yet determined the date on which she would do so. While Casey surely recognized that her regular routine of sedating Caylee with Chloroform and stashing her away some place when her presence was not desired was not a permanent solution, she just as surely recognized that having her mother care for Caylee was no solution either as it generally resulted in her being subjected to Cindy's emotional tirades. Had Caylee's murder not been pre-planned prior to June 16, 2008, I do not believe her murder would have occurred on that date or on any subsequent date. It was the fact that Casey already had a murder plan and script in place on June 16, 2008 that provided the impetus for her to carry out her murder plan in the clearly evil, emotionally detached and deliberate manner in which she did. If truth be known, Casey honestly believed that her "unbelievable" script would entitle her to a "Get Home Free" card from her parents, law enforcement and the world at large.

The senseless murder of two-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, which has so outraged and distressed her grandparents, relatives and the citizens of this country demands JUSTICE and, as far as I am concerned, a court verdict of GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!

:clap: Another great post. You've said it all. I never have to post again!

Rumpole
01-28-2009, 06:31 PM
It recently occurred to me that Caylee's death on June 16, 2008 was precipitated by and was the logical consequence of a specific set of circumstances which neither Casey nor her parents were able to deal with in a mature and responsible manner: (1) When Casey's pregnancy was finally recognized by her parents in her seventh month, Casey informed her parents that she wanted to place the baby for adoption upon birth. (2) Cindy was adamant that she should keep the baby based on the premise that she and George would provide whatever supplemental childcare and financial support Casey would require. (3) While there can be little doubt that Casey, Cindy and George dearly loved Caylee, as time went by the burden of providing financial support became onerous to Cindy, since neither George nor Casey were regularly employed.
(4) As is her nature, Casey exploited her parents' generosity by failing to secure and maintain a full- or part-time job, by actively pursuing social activities and intimate relationships normally enjoyed by people who are single and by failing to ensure that Caylee was properly cared for at all times when she was in her custody. (5) As time went by, the care of Caylee became evermore problematic and burdensome to Casey, especially when she could not afford to pay a babysitter and when Cindy refused to provide babysitting services when Casey wanted to go partying in the evening. (6) While it is obvious that there was never a letup in Casey's evening social activities, heaven only knows where Caylee was kept when she was not physically in the care of her mother during the last few months of her extremely short life. Could she have been sedated with Chloroform and stashed away at some unknown location as suspected? Give me a break! There has never been a "Zanny the Nanny" any more than there has ever been a "tooth fairy." Casey preferred to live in a fantasy world, presenting a happy-go-lucky exterior personality to the outside world while, at the same time, continuously lying to and stealing from her family, friends and others. (8) Cindy consistently played an unwitting role in supporting Casey's negative behavior and actions by not only buying into the tall tales Casey told her but by actually coddling her at times when she should have been berating her. (7) Cindy's built-up anger and resentment towards Casey reached its boiling point on June 15, 2008 when a loud and violent verbal and physical altercation erupted between them which culminated in Cindy actually putting her hands around Casey's throat.

It was no mere coincidence that Casey chose to murder Caylee the next day, on June 16, 2008. Subsequent to the internet research she had conducted in March 2008, Casey had already carefully planned and scripted the murder of Caylee and had actually implemented or was about to implement the many critical components of that plan that she felt would support her script. Casey also knew exactly how she would murder Caylee although she had not as yet determined the date on which she would do so. While Casey surely recognized that her regular routine of sedating Caylee with Chloroform and stashing her away some place when her presence was not desired was not a permanent solution, she just as surely recognized that having her mother care for Caylee was no solution either as it generally resulted in her being subjected to Cindy's emotional tirades. Had Caylee's murder not been pre-planned prior to June 16, 2008, I do not believe her murder would have occurred on that date or on any subsequent date. It was the fact that Casey already had a murder plan and script in place on June 16, 2008 that provided the impetus for her to carry out her murder plan in the clearly evil, emotionally detached and deliberate manner in which she did. If truth be known, Casey honestly believed that her "unbelievable" script would entitle her to a "Get Home Free" card from her parents, law enforcement and the world at large.

The senseless murder of two-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, which has so outraged and distressed her grandparents, relatives and the citizens of this country demands JUSTICE and, as far as I am concerned, a court verdict of GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!
I like the preamble to your ouline, but I can not go along with the Pre-planning hypothesis. Certainly she may have "pre thought" about riding herself of the burden, but she seems hopless at planning anything Of course your opinion is as valid as mine. I think a violent outburst:" Shut up Caylee" and throw her in the trunk. Perhaps on-going sedation, but this last time perhaps involved more anger and venom.

The family have much to answer for in facilitating not only this crisis, but the preceeding years.

texas77878
01-28-2009, 06:55 PM
Is there a thread about what the heck KC REALLY did when she was supposed to be working? If this has been discussed can you point me in the right direction please?

BondJamesBond
01-28-2009, 11:15 PM
FWIW...

Have been taking a focused look @ 6/16 pings on that thread in the Sticky Forum to support/debunk the purpose of the "flurry" calls that afternoon. I'm concluding that these calls were indeed an attempt to establish Caylee-Care w/ Cindy by dropping Caylee @ Gentiva that afternoon as Casey had often done before.

Back on 11/20, a now-inactive WS, Joyce, commented on a "stall" in the trip to Tony's that afternoon (6/16). We briefly discussed the possibility of the "stall" being involved w/ sedating Caylee, and the repeated attempts to reach Cindy, and ultimately Amy that night were last-ditch efforts...and then we moved on.

Today, I'm snipping the following from discussion w/ JWG over on the 6/16 thread as it relates to this Theory...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BondJamesBond
...consistent with 10-minute-at-time-Caseythink...since Casey was attempting to establish Caylee-care while on her way to Tony's...it means she didn't have the OTC she needed to sedate Caylee with her...

....soo....

IF we'd had the ping info immediately when the case broke and could’ve ciphered it down to this point quickly...I would’ve marched LE over to collect security surveillance video of Casey buying the d@mn OTC’s @ one of the two pharmacies located well-within the ping locations @ 4:25PM during the break after Casey’s last call to Cindy’s cell prior to showing up near Tony’s:

CVS @ 7451 East Colonial Drive (same intersection as Amscot)
Walgreens @ 7325 Gatehouse Cir, Orlando

However, w/ surveil videos likely not kept longer than 30 days...Grrrrrr… perhaps this was among the receipts that were turned over to JB early in the case. If not paid in cash...perhaps a check or credit card transaction that has been traced.
Joyce...wherever you are...nice work!

This one got plowed under...FYI. Ya' think Casey might've used a frequent-customer card??

JWG
01-29-2009, 12:09 AM
This one got plowed under...FYI. Ya' think Casey might've used a frequent-customer card??

Wonder what the rules of evidence and discovery are for a defense attorney. If JB has incriminating receipts, what is his obligation? :waitasec:

IIRC some postings by Wudge on another thread, if KC confessed to JB he would be obligated to keep his mouth shut if she told him to. Wondering if the same holds true with incriminating evidence.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 12:25 AM
Wonder what the rules of evidence and discovery are for a defense attorney. If JB has incriminating receipts, what is his obligation? :waitasec:

IIRC some postings by Wudge on another thread, if KC confessed to JB he would be obligated to keep his mouth shut if she told him to. Wondering if the same holds true with incriminating evidence.

Great question for the Legal thread...

FWIW....the timestamp on the Blockbuster surveil video still images begins @ 7:54PM and ends @ 8:04PM.

Steely Dan
01-29-2009, 12:27 AM
Wonder what the rules of evidence and discovery are for a defense attorney. If JB has incriminating receipts, what is his obligation? :waitasec:

IIRC some postings by Wudge on another thread, if KC confessed to JB he would be obligated to keep his mouth shut if she told him to. Wondering if the same holds true with incriminating evidence.

I believe that a defense attorney will get into big doo doo if they hold back evidence. They don't have to say anything their client tells them but I believe it's illegal for them to suppress evidence just as it is for the prosecution.

debs
01-29-2009, 01:59 AM
Wonder what the rules of evidence and discovery are for a defense attorney. If JB has incriminating receipts, what is his obligation? :waitasec:

IIRC some postings by Wudge on another thread, if KC confessed to JB he would be obligated to keep his mouth shut if she told him to. Wondering if the same holds true with incriminating evidence.

An attorney has an affirmative duty to report and turn over any incriminating evidence against his or her client, even if it was his/her client that gave the evidence to the attorney. He/She would be violating his/her ethical duty to the court. (Paraphrased from this excerpt. (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1228501))

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 03:39 AM
OK...need a new doc release to advance theories. When is the next one due per the motions filed?

Now firmly in the OTC's and/or Rx - no chloroform - used, camp. T.O.D. >7:20PM 6/16. Duct tape & vomit-related asphyxiation and/or heat-related aggravation notwithstanding.

Looking @ those Blockbuster stills...grrrr....:furious:

Jersey*Girl
01-29-2009, 10:28 AM
OK...need a new doc release to advance theories. When is the next one due per the motions filed?

Now firmly in the OTC's and/or Rx - no chloroform - used, camp. T.O.D. >7:20PM 6/16. Duct tape & vomit-related asphyxiation and/or heat-related aggravation notwithstanding.

Looking @ those Blockbuster stills...grrrr....:furious:

Bond - Totally impressive! I 100% agree!

Marina2
01-29-2009, 11:03 AM
The FDA has, since 2007, placed warnings on infants/childrens cold medicines. An alarming amount of babies and children were showing up at ERs with fatal and near fatal reactions. They warned against giving them to children under 2; this changed to children under 4 and now they are considering changing it to under 6. The medicines are said to be ineffective against the cold and pose risks that outweigh the benefits. I think the medicines are probably safe if used as directed. The increase in emergency visits are probably due to parents using these drugs to sedate their children. I wonder if there is an increase in people using the cold medicines to bring about sleep in their child because these medicines have been around for years without any cause for alarm. One article I read said that of the parents who brought their child to the ER, 0% admitted giving the child more than the recommended dose of cold medicine.

It's near impossible to take a lethal dose of xanax if not mixed with alchohol or other medication. I doubt a person would have access to the amount it would take without saving up pills for quite awhile. The most likely result of Xanax OD is vomiting or, in extreme cases, coma. Caylee could die from Xanax ingestion if she were duct taped and then vomited. This would lead to aspiration of vomit resulting in asphyxiation or poisoning of her lungs or respiratory center.
Coma as a result of Xanax OD could have happened and goes along with Hercule P's theory. However, KC probably didn't have access to the amount it would take to bring about coma. If she did and administered it to Caylee she couldn't deny that her intentions were to kill her.

The possibility that chloroform contributed in some way to her death is there since such a large amount was found in the trunk. I tend to think of this as accidental spillage of chloroform KC may have had for other reasons.

If Caylee died of an overdose of some medication, I would bet that it was OTC cold medicine rather than chloroform or xanax.
It would be very helpful to know if KC purchased some type of cold medication within the time frame of Caylee's death. If Caylee OD'd, this is the most likely culprit.

publius
01-29-2009, 11:20 AM
Not so much "Intentionally" , more "unthinkingly".

That is not ment to lessen the crime in any way whatsoever. I think KC was hyper angry and treated Caylee with no regard at all. Just an object. Taped and thrown in the trunk.
There was no "premeditation" as in a plan and getting equipment ready etc. Obviously no plan in place to dispose of a body or even explain Caylee's absense. The one sensible thing I can attribute to LP (to be fair, I do not see much of him at all), is his assessment that KC lives life from one 10min interval to the next.

I agree that KC didn't 100% plan this out. However, she did like to play a whole host of different roles from time to time. She was the career woman, the perfect single mom, the party girl, the big sister to the shot girls, the little sister act for Lee, etc., etc. I think her 'research' into the chloro (and other strange searches) were not really a plan, but more akin to her rehearsing for a new role. And when 'pushed' (i.e., the KC vs. CA fight, among other reasons) she fell into this role quite easily and 'acted out' the murder of her daughter. She may have done this before (in the fantasy land in her head) but this time it was for real. She seems so detached now because she is playing a new role (the victim and justice seeker/law student) and that old role really wasn't 'her'.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 11:34 AM
If Caylee died of an overdose of some medication, I would bet that it was OTC cold medicine rather than chloroform or xanax.
It would be very helpful to know if KC purchased some type of cold medication within the time frame of Caylee's death. If Caylee OD'd, this is the most likely culprit.
*snipped*

FWIW...per analysis of the cell pings, it appears Casey may have stopped @ either Walgreens or CVS on her way to Tony's 6/16. There were long periods of inactivity on her cell phone prior to two calls to Cindy ~6PM...the last one being successful, and two calls to Amy @ ~7:20PM. After which, Casey showed up @ Blockbuster w/ Tony @ 7:54PM.

IMHO, this suggests Casey, frustrated @ not being able to establish contact with Cindy in order to drop Caylee @ Gentiva that afternoon, obtained something to sedate Caylee @ CVS or Walgreens.

See post#543 above...
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3231415&postcount=543

Marina2
01-29-2009, 11:47 AM
Bond, I did read that post and it's what prompted my thoughts re: the OTC cold medicine. Most people regard OTC meds as safe when, in fact, they can be very deadly if used inappropriately. Tylenol, for instance, is one of the most dangerous drugs there is, RX or OTC. I can see KC administering an extra large dose of OTC cold meds without giving a thought to the lethality of it since it was, as many assume, a safe OTC drug. Knowing she administered this fatal dose, KC found cause to cover up the crime. She knew she would be held responsible.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of things that killed Caylee. Meds, asphyxiation, hyperthermia could have all played a part in a sedation, duct tape, placed in the trunk scenario.

secretagent
01-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental. :confused:

If Casy spends as much time on the computer/texting as its been shown, then I say it is hightly like that it could happen.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 12:08 PM
Bond, I did read that post and it's what prompted my thoughts re: the OTC cold medicine. Most people regard OTC meds as safe when, in fact, they can be very deadly if used inappropriately. Tylenol, for instance, is one of the most dangerous drugs there is, RX or OTC. I can see KC administering an extra large dose of OTC cold meds without giving a thought to the lethality of it since it was, as many assume, a safe OTC drug. Knowing she administered this fatal dose, KC found cause to cover up the crime. She knew she would be held responsible.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of things that killed Caylee. Meds, asphyxiation, hyperthermia could have all played a part in a sedation, duct tape, placed in the trunk scenario.

Sounds like we're in violent agreement, Marina2.

It took me awhile to come around the chloroform thing, but, I think I've gotta handle on that now thanks to help from WS's on the chloroform thread. :blowkiss:

Jersey*Girl
01-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Bond, I did read that post and it's what prompted my thoughts re: the OTC cold medicine. Most people regard OTC meds as safe when, in fact, they can be very deadly if used inappropriately. Tylenol, for instance, is one of the most dangerous drugs there is, RX or OTC. I can see KC administering an extra large dose of OTC cold meds without giving a thought to the lethality of it since it was, as many assume, a safe OTC drug. Knowing she administered this fatal dose, KC found cause to cover up the crime. She knew she would be held responsible.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of things that killed Caylee. Meds, asphyxiation, hyperthermia could have all played a part in a sedation, duct tape, placed in the trunk scenario.

You're correct. Plus, if it was Benadryl (or any other cold med with similar ingredients), all KC would have had to do is fill up a TBSP instead of a TSP to put Caylee into a coma ... that is, given Caylee's age (probable height & weight) and all.

JWG
01-29-2009, 01:53 PM
*snipped*

FWIW...per analysis of the cell pings, it appears Casey may have stopped @ either Walgreens or CVS on her way to Tony's 6/16. There were long periods of inactivity on her cell phone prior to two calls to Cindy ~6PM...the last one being successful, and two calls to Amy @ ~7:20PM. After which, Casey showed up @ Blockbuster w/ Tony @ 7:54PM.

IMHO, this suggests Casey, frustrated @ not being able to establish contact with Cindy in order to drop Caylee @ Gentiva that afternoon, obtained something to sedate Caylee @ CVS or Walgreens.

See post#543 above...
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3231415&postcount=543

IMEHO, I agree the stop would have occurred between 4:25 and 4:50 PM while en route to Tony's. This is based on the direction of the two pings to Tower 46: 0.5 mi W of Amscot, 2 mi S of TonE L, which bracket the above times. The first ping is consistent with a location at either drug store. The second ping is from a location north of the CVS. Either at Tony's or on the way.

If I were a betting man, I'd have my money on CVS, based on KC standard driving pattern.

Lanie
01-29-2009, 02:04 PM
Lanie,

Don't you find it curious that Casey would be sitting at home on that Monday downloading a video onto her computer of an event where her daughter was reading a book to Papa? That book which many here think was found at the crime scene. The last person verified by a source other than the Anthony family to have had Caylee with her is Cindy. EVERYONE brought up June 9 until the video proved Caylee was alive on June 15. EVERYONE, including Granny Shirley.

Here's a theory for ya. How's about the weekend before June 9, Cindy and Casey have at a fight. Casey takes off without Caylee. We know from Tony that about the 9th she started staying there nearly every night, without Caylee. Cindy and George attempt to figure out how they're going to take care of Caylee. Cindy tells George that under no circumstances is he to let Casey into the house to see Caylee. She left, forget it. She doesn't get to keep messing things up. They struggle with the schedule that first week. Balancing their jobs with a toddler is pretty daunting, even if George doesn't have to go to work until 2 (to start at 3). Discovery docs in this last dump show that he was at work for 40 hours the week "ending" June 12 (Thursday to Thursday). It also was not unusual (according to Cindy's co-workers) for Caylee to be dropped off a couple times a week when Casey "was working" so the gaps COULD be filled with George dropping Caylee off at Cindy's work that week and Cindy simply telling people there that Casey dropped her off. Casey is off on her new adventure and the lies about work are now Tony's problem and the senior Anthony's are adjusting to their new routine.

We know Casey is in the house during that week (9-13) because of computer activity. I'm going to guess that Casey's feelings of "getting to know" George again after being distant for so long has everything to do with him bending the rules while Cindy is at work to allow Casey to come over. Casey gets to pretend that she's working while Tony is at school, and George gets to feel like he's important to Casey. It's a win/win, and Cindy can be in the dark. Though something must have triggered in her at least once, because in the jail house visits, at one point, Cindy asks Casey about things that were missing from the house. That ring, for instance. I'd bet money that Cindy took that from Casey at one point in a snit because it had been stolen or purchased with Cindy's money. Casey went searching for it and found it, and Cindy-the-hyper-vigilant noticed it was gone.



.................anyway, that's ONE theory of why the 9th was so memorable.

Well, RM says Casey showed up with Caylee and spent the night June 9. Casey had Caylee when she went to the mall with AL sometime that same week, and a friend says they went to the park around the 12th, 13th or 14th.
It's too hard to remember everything about this case. I seem to recall the video being downloaded shortly after it was taken, but don't remember when. I do remember thinking how they found the time to get this video downloaded, along with going swimming, having a big fight (still not sure this happened) tucking everyone in, etc. So, are you sure it was downloaded the morning of the 16th, because I don't want to spend hours tracking this info down?
Lanie

Lanie
01-29-2009, 02:11 PM
I agree that KC didn't 100% plan this out. However, she did like to play a whole host of different roles from time to time. She was the career woman, the perfect single mom, the party girl, the big sister to the shot girls, the little sister act for Lee, etc., etc. I think her 'research' into the chloro (and other strange searches) were not really a plan, but more akin to her rehearsing for a new role. And when 'pushed' (i.e., the KC vs. CA fight, among other reasons) she fell into this role quite easily and 'acted out' the murder of her daughter. She may have done this before (in the fantasy land in her head) but this time it was for real. She seems so detached now because she is playing a new role (the victim and justice seeker/law student) and that old role really wasn't 'her'.

Bolded by me.

This is also my train of thought. IMO, she had been thinking off and on of killing Caylee. For whatever reason, on June 16th, everything lined up right for her.
Lanie

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 02:14 PM
Well, RM says Casey showed up with Caylee and spent the night June 9. Casey had Caylee when she went to the mall with AL sometime that same week, and a friend says they went to the park around the 12th, 13th or 14th.
It's too hard to remember everything about this case. I seem to recall the video being downloaded shortly after it was taken, but don't remember when. I do remember thinking how they found the time to get this video downloaded, along with going swimming, having a big fight (still not sure this happened) tucking everyone in, etc. So, are you sure it was downloaded the morning of the 16th, because I don't want to spend hours tracking this info down?
Lanie

FWIW...I have in my notes from the computer forensics that the pics (dunno 'bout vid) from the nursing home were downloaded to the laptop @ 3:31PM on 6/17. Owing to Cindy's work schedule and Casey's pings this was performed by Casey.

IIRC, a pic (dunno 'bout vid) from the above downloaded photos based on the content (Caylee reading book @ nursing home matching the video) was last viewed ~10AM 7/2. This may have been a still image from the video. I just don't recall.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 02:16 PM
IMEHO, I agree the stop would have occurred between 4:25 and 4:50 PM while en route to Tony's. This is based on the direction of the two pings to Tower 46: 0.5 mi W of Amscot, 2 mi S of TonE L, which bracket the above times. The first ping is consistent with a location at either drug store. The second ping is from a location north of the CVS. Either at Tony's or on the way.

If I were a betting man, I'd have my money on CVS, based on KC standard driving pattern.

I'd go double-or-nothin' on that bet. :highfive:

It's Not the Nanny
01-29-2009, 02:58 PM
The thing is, cold medicine and benedryl don't taste that good.

Motrin/Advil/maybe Tylenol....kids probably would take easily enough....cold meds aren't very tasty! My kids gag them down (when it was acceptable to give little kids cold meds when they had a cold!).

Then again, maybe KC bought the chewable/dissolving strip kind that would be easier for Caylee to take. (candy!) Honestly, I don't see Caylee drinking 3 times the normal dosage of Benedryl or cold medicine. (Mom opinion here!)

reeseeva
01-29-2009, 03:34 PM
I could be one of the last standing, reading all theories, & reading for weeks, do not think she intentionally killed her! I still feel, after the night of the 15th, she was just so focused on herself, that the care of Caylee fell thru the cracks., & she just continued on with her life. I just can't grasp "intentional", as I truly believe she loved her!

I also wonder about the call on 6/16 from the Anthony home at 7:45am to KC's cell, could have been Cindy calling before she left for work, telling her to get home. She had done this before according to Ricordo M.

JMHO

Marina2
01-29-2009, 03:39 PM
The thing is, cold medicine and benedryl don't taste that good.

Motrin/Advil/maybe Tylenol....kids probably would take easily enough....cold meds aren't very tasty! My kids gag them down (when it was acceptable to give little kids cold meds when they had a cold!).

Then again, maybe KC bought the chewable/dissolving strip kind that would be easier for Caylee to take. (candy!) Honestly, I don't see Caylee drinking 3 times the normal dosage of Benedryl or cold medicine. (Mom opinion here!)
But it happens all the time that children show up in emergency rooms near death or even dead from taking too much of this stuff. There must be some way to get it in.
I do agree about the taste though. We had to hold my granddaughter down to give her the Tylenol cold and flu syrup and it was flavored to taste good!! I would have just let it go but she was so uncomfortable...high fever, sore throat, couldn't breath from congestion. She felt much better after getting it.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 04:37 PM
I could be one of the last standing, reading all theories, & reading for weeks, do not think she intentionally killed her! I still feel, after the night of the 15th, she was just so focused on herself, that the care of Caylee fell thru the cracks., & she just continued on with her life. I just can't grasp "intentional", as I truly believe she loved her!

*snipped*

RE: Casey's intent.

IMHO, Casey's narcisstic actions were directed at her sole objective of having alone time w/ Tony. The possible effect of her actions on Caylee was not a priority or consideration. 10-minute-at-a-time-Casey didn't intend on Caylee dying 6/16...she intended to free herself from Caylee to suit her needs THAT NIGHT.

Legal experts can determine what definitions best fit her actions.

As covered above, if receipts surface that Casey visited CVS 6/16 after 4PM, there maybe similar receipts showing she stopped at a fast food place to get a bite to eat before showing up @ Tony's. If Casey could produce a receipt from that fast food place showing 2 meals...she would have an argument in court to suggest she was grossly negligent, dosed Caylee and applied the duct tape out of stupidity to keep Caylee quiet...not to murder her.

Since Casey didn't plan on keeping Caylee overnight @ Tony's 6/16 - as she appears to have managed 6/10-6/14 to start some other form of Caylee-Care (e.g. improvised staying @ Lee's and making brief, middle-of-the-night dashes up to Tony's w/o Caylee) - she never took Caylee's things to Tony's. 6/16 was no different. She didn't take overnight supplies 6/16 for Caylee because Casey planned/needed/expected to drop Caylee w/ Cindy @ Gentiva that afternoon. Didn't work...no back-up plan...damn the torpedos!

In Casey's mind she was given no choice. In Casey's mind her actions were justified. Seriously consider the consequences for her actions? Why should she?...the consequences would be Cindy's fault.

Jersey*Girl
01-29-2009, 04:38 PM
But it happens all the time that children show up in emergency rooms near death or even dead from taking too much of this stuff. There must be some way to get it in.
I do agree about the taste though. We had to hold my granddaughter down to give her the Tylenol cold and flu syrup and it was flavored to taste good!! I would have just let it go but she was so uncomfortable...high fever, sore throat, couldn't breath from congestion. She felt much better after getting it.


The thing is, cold medicine and benedryl don't taste that good.

Motrin/Advil/maybe Tylenol....kids probably would take easily enough....cold meds aren't very tasty! My kids gag them down (when it was acceptable to give little kids cold meds when they had a cold!).

Then again, maybe KC bought the chewable/dissolving strip kind that would be easier for Caylee to take. (candy!) Honestly, I don't see Caylee drinking 3 times the normal dosage of Benedryl or cold medicine. (Mom opinion here!)

Marina - so very true! It's Not the Nanny - This is true but alot of doctors and pharmacies now supply syringe looking plastic applicators with millimeter measuring to make it easier when administering oral medication. You literally just stick it in the medicine, suck it up by pulling the handle thingy up, then push the medicine into the childs mouth. If you bypass the tongues natural tastebuds then the medicine wouldn't have any taste at all. In other words, if KC used this type of measuring device, instead of a spoon like the average parent, then little Caylee might not have put up a fight. If KC did this on a daily basis, Caylee might have even gotten used to the taste & therefore never put up a fight by thinking it tastes yucky. Think about it...if somebody puts liver in front of me (or even eats it in my vicinity) I'll throw up, but the person eating it might love it b/c they've grown used to the taste of it - therefore they don't find it's taste offensive. Escargo is another example.

Lanie
01-29-2009, 04:43 PM
FWIW...I have in my notes from the computer forensics that the pics (dunno 'bout vid) from the nursing home were downloaded to the laptop @ 3:31PM on 6/17. Owing to Cindy's work schedule and Casey's pings this was performed by Casey.

IIRC, a pic (dunno 'bout vid) from the above downloaded photos based on the content (Caylee reading book @ nursing home matching the video) was last viewed ~10AM 7/2. This may have been a still image from the video. I just don't recall.

Do you happen to show in your notes where Casey probably was based on her pings? I'm getting to the point where I really hate looking this stuff up.
TIA
Lanie

Jersey*Girl
01-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Do you happen to show in your notes where Casey probably was based on her pings? I'm getting to the point where I really hate looking this stuff up.
TIA
Lanie

Bond - ditto from me. I thought it was JWG's reference to the pings, but maybe it was yours. For me, I'm trying to pinpoint the time of each ping when KC showered at JG's - morning through afternoon. I'm still looking through the posts regarding the pings. Trying to back everything up with the official docs. Thanks so very much for all of your contributions!

eddeva
01-29-2009, 04:51 PM
I could be one of the last standing, reading all theories, & reading for weeks, do not think she intentionally killed her! I still feel, after the night of the 15th, she was just so focused on herself, that the care of Caylee fell thru the cracks., & she just continued on with her life. I just can't grasp "intentional", as I truly believe she loved her!

reeseeva, you're not the last but you are in the minority. it doesn't stop you speaking your mind though, nor should it, but it does take a strong person to do so. i may not agree w/ you, but i certainly respect you.

Lanie
01-29-2009, 04:52 PM
The thing is, cold medicine and benedryl don't taste that good.

Motrin/Advil/maybe Tylenol....kids probably would take easily enough....cold meds aren't very tasty! My kids gag them down (when it was acceptable to give little kids cold meds when they had a cold!).

Then again, maybe KC bought the chewable/dissolving strip kind that would be easier for Caylee to take. (candy!) Honestly, I don't see Caylee drinking 3 times the normal dosage of Benedryl or cold medicine. (Mom opinion here!)


But it happens all the time that children show up in emergency rooms near death or even dead from taking too much of this stuff. There must be some way to get it in.
I do agree about the taste though. We had to hold my granddaughter down to give her the Tylenol cold and flu syrup and it was flavored to taste good!! I would have just let it go but she was so uncomfortable...high fever, sore throat, couldn't breath from congestion. She felt much better after getting it.

I think it depends on the kid. My brother was caught eating dried dog poop in the back yard when he was about 2-3 years old. He said a dirty word and my mom put a little soap in his mouth. He went back into the bathroom and ate the whole bar. He would eat anything. (Ironically, his name was Mikey...)
I had a little bit of a struggle with 3 of my children when they had to take some medicines. The other one had allergies pretty bad, and never fought the meds at all, she would even do the nasal spray with no complaints, which I personally can't stand.
Lanie

Lanie
01-29-2009, 04:56 PM
I could be one of the last standing, reading all theories, & reading for weeks, do not think she intentionally killed her! I still feel, after the night of the 15th, she was just so focused on herself, that the care of Caylee fell thru the cracks., & she just continued on with her life. I just can't grasp "intentional", as I truly believe she loved her!

I also wonder about the call on 6/16 from the Anthony home at 7:45am to KC's cell, could have been Cindy calling before she left for work, telling her to get home. She had done this before according to Ricordo M.

JMHO

Hey, don't sweat it. There are lots of times I feel like I am the only one who thinks the chloroform is actually relevant. The bottom line is they are all theories based on the way we each have viewed the evidence. LOL, if we all agreed on every point, there would be nothing to discuss.
Lanie

suspicious1
01-29-2009, 05:11 PM
I could be one of the last standing, reading all theories, & reading for weeks, do not think she intentionally killed her! I still feel, after the night of the 15th, she was just so focused on herself, that the care of Caylee fell thru the cracks., & she just continued on with her life. I just can't grasp "intentional", as I truly believe she loved her!

I also wonder about the call on 6/16 from the Anthony home at 7:45am to KC's cell, could have been Cindy calling before she left for work, telling her to get home. She had done this before according to Ricordo M.

JMHO

I don't believe that she killed her intentionally either.

I remember a time I came home late one night and locked my bedroom door (which I always did because my mother is so nosey) my mom would call my cell phone because she knew I would wake up to my cell ringing. I don't know if this is what KC did but it could be possible.

Indigo
01-29-2009, 05:13 PM
*snipped*

RE: Casey's intent.

IMHO, Casey's narcisstic actions were directed at her sole objective of having alone time w/ Tony. The possible effect of her actions on Caylee was not a priority or consideration. 10-minute-at-a-time-Casey didn't intend on Caylee dying 6/16...she intended to free herself from Caylee to suit her needs THAT NIGHT.

Legal experts can determine what definitions best fit her actions.

As covered above, if receipts surface that Casey visited CVS 6/16 after 4PM, there maybe similar receipts showing she stopped at a fast food place to get a bite to eat before showing up @ Tony's. If Casey could produce a receipt from that fast food place showing 2 meals...she would have an argument in court to suggest she was grossly negligent, dosed Caylee and applied the duct tape out of stupidity to keep Caylee quiet...not to murder her.

Since Casey didn't plan on keeping Caylee overnight @ Tony's 6/16 - as she appears to have managed 6/10-6/14 to start some other form of Caylee-Care (e.g. improvised staying @ Lee's and making brief, middle-of-the-night dashes up to Tony's w/o Caylee) - she never took Caylee's things to Tony's. 6/16 was no different. She didn't take overnight supplies 6/16 for Caylee because Casey planned/needed/expected to drop Caylee w/ Cindy @ Gentiva that afternoon. Didn't work...no back-up plan...damn the torpedos!

In Casey's mind she was given no choice. In Casey's mind her actions were justified. Seriously consider the consequences for her actions? Why should she?...the consequences would be Cindy's fault.

IIRC, Casey told George they'd be staying at the nanny's and wouldn't be coming home that night. She also told George ( 8/4 interview) that she had discussed her plans with Cindy. In your opinion, BJB, what changed her original plan? TIA.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 05:18 PM
IIRC, Casey told George they'd be staying at the nanny's and wouldn't be coming home that night. She also told George ( 8/4 interview) that she had discussed her plans with Cindy. In your opinion, BJB, what changed her original plan? TIA.

IMHO, George's last sighting of Caylee account we are all familiar with including the clothes she was wearing, the time of day, the plans for the evening, are all indeed from his memory of 6/9 not 6/16.


Cell pings support this conclusion.
Casey & Caylee's overnight stay w/ Ricardo 6/9 supports this conclusion.
Clothes found with the remains not matching George's description supports this conclusion.

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 05:27 PM
OT: However, in response to requests..re: researching pings:

1) Goto the Sticky Forum (3rd in the list of Sub-Forums on the at the top of the main Caylee Forum page) Link here for convenience: http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=233
2) Scroll down/page forward to find the Thread for the day of interest. Titles are all in the same format, "Ping Map for June ##, 2008 - Discuss that day only."
3) Goto post#1 of the day of interest thread.
4) Use the link provided by Georgia PI in post#1 to view the Google Map for that day flagged with each ping and its associated time.
5) Read the thread for the day of interest to see if your specific interest/question has been discussed.

Hope that helps. Now...back to Theories :)

Jersey*Girl
01-29-2009, 05:33 PM
OT: However, in response to requests..re: researching pings:

1) Goto the Sticky Forum (3rd in the list of Sub-Forums on the at the top of the main Caylee Forum page) Link here for convenience: http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=233
2) Scroll down/page forward to find the Thread for the day of interest. Titles are all in the same format, "Ping Map for June ##, 2008 - Discuss that day only."
3) Goto post#1 of the day of interest thread.
4) Use the link provided by Georgia PI in post#1 to view the Google Map for that day flagged with each ping and its associated time.
5) Read the thread for the day of interest to see if your specific interest/question has been discussed.

Hope that helps. Now...back to Theories :)

I honestly can't thank you enough. Great job!

eddeva
01-29-2009, 05:37 PM
IIRC, Casey told George they'd be staying at the nanny's and wouldn't be coming home that night. She also told George ( 8/4 interview) that she had discussed her plans with Cindy. In your opinion, BJB, what changed her original plan? TIA.

hang about, if she told george caylee was staying over w/ the nanny and if she told tony caylee was staying over w/ the nanny, that's premeditation right there.

ETA if this has already been said sorry. your post caught my eye before i read everything else.

It's Not the Nanny
01-29-2009, 05:42 PM
hang about, if she told george caylee was staying over w/ the nanny and if she told tony caylee was staying over w/ the nanny, that's premeditation right there.

ETA if this has already been said sorry. your post caught my eye before i read everything else.

Exactly!!

I know GA is cuckoo for KC pops but for some weird reason, I DO believe KC left that afternoon with an alive Caylee and KC DID tell him she wouldn't be coming home because she was "working".

I know, I know... GA reported all the details of their clothes but I honestly don't think he remembers. I would never be able to remember something like that. They lived together and he saw Caylee in all of her clothes day in and day out. He and CA may have gone through pictures or her closet to try and figure out what was missing and say that is what she was wearing.....

or it was part of their cover up later to report that outfit.

Either way, I think KC saying they wouldn't be home and not leaving with a suitcase screams premeditation.

Rumpole
01-29-2009, 05:43 PM
hang about, if she told george caylee was staying over w/ the nanny and if she told tony caylee was staying over w/ the nanny, that's premeditation right there.

ETA if this has already been said sorry. your post caught my eye before i read everything else.
Unless there really was a Nanny? LOL

BondJamesBond
01-29-2009, 05:47 PM
IMHO, George's last sighting of Caylee account we are all familiar with including the clothes she was wearing, the time of day, the plans for the evening, are all indeed from his memory of 6/9 not 6/16.


Cell pings support this conclusion.
Casey & Caylee's overnight stay w/ Ricardo 6/9 supports this conclusion.
Clothes found with the remains not matching George's description supports this conclusion.


Bump for your consideration...as you head down the 'proof of premeditation' path...

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 04:27 PM
Garage the critical Place.
I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

j10477
01-30-2009, 04:51 PM
Does anyone know if they did any testing or brought the Cadaver dogs in the garage ? Did not someone mentioned on WS ,that they thought the laundry area was in the gargage ?

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 05:21 PM
Does anyone know if they did any testing or brought the Cadaver dogs in the garage ? Did not someone mentioned on WS ,that they thought the laundry area was in the gargage ?
Laundry appliances are in the garage. Take a look at the latest floor plan on that thread.

The reports that are released make no mention of the Garage being checked by K-9 and those reports are detailed. So probably NOT checked in Garage. The dog teams entered property by gate at side of house, so would not have opportunity if garage if doors were shut. Also no mention of dogs having oportunity inside the house.The car was impounded before the dogs got there, and dogs checked the car back at LE and not at the A property.

Steely Dan
01-30-2009, 05:23 PM
Garage the critical Place.
I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

ITA - If we knew for sure what happened in that garage we'd be 80% down the road of what happened to Caylee,

reeseeva
01-30-2009, 05:26 PM
Garage the critical Place.
I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.


Hercule, I keep reading about which bag came first. IIRC it was a black garbage bag first & then a laundry bag?, which I would think would have been more visibly noticed amongst the trash in the area.

j10477
01-30-2009, 05:26 PM
Laundry appliances are in the garage. Take a look at the latest floor plan on that thread.

The reports that are released make no mention of the Garage being checked by K-9 and those reports are detailed. So probably NOT checked in Garage. The dog teams entered property by gate at side of house, so would not have opportunity if garage if doors were shut. Also no mention of dogs having oportunity inside the house.The car was impounded before the dogs got there, and dogs checked the car back at LE and not at the A property.

Thanks for the clarification

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 05:27 PM
ITA - If we knew for sure what happened in that garage we'd be 80% down the road of what happened to Caylee,
YES
I agree.

I hate all the rumour spreading but.........
Do you know of any real evidence to support the story that a section of Dry Wall was taken from Garage by LE?

Jersey*Girl
01-30-2009, 05:29 PM
Laundry appliances are in the garage. Take a look at the latest floor plan on that thread.

The reports that are released make no mention of the Garage being checked by K-9 and those reports are detailed. So probably NOT checked in Garage. The dog teams entered property by gate at side of house, so would not have opportunity if garage if doors were shut. Also no mention of dogs having oportunity inside the house.The car was impounded before the dogs got there, and dogs checked the car back at LE and not at the A property.

Hey, I have a quick question. LP mentioned that somebody needs to ask the A's about their new washer & dryer. If I remember right, it was on NG last week sometime. While I realize that alot of what he says might be based on rumor or second hand knowledge, sometimes his statements show some merit. Does anyone know if this is true? Did CA purchase a new washing machine, or a combination of washer & dryer? Has LE checked into it? Thanks.

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 05:31 PM
Hercule, I keep reading about which bag came first. IIRC it was a black garbage bag first & then a laundry bag?, which I would think would have been more visibly noticed amongst the trash in the area.
Definately not.

This was argued a lot. The documents are worded poorly but I am convinced it says plastic last. The scene of crimes officer's description of scene as he arrives talks of skull on ground in front of black plastic bag. There was other evidence. I hope thats enough to turn you back to the light side and away from the Dark Side where people think the laundry bag was on the outside.

It's Not the Nanny
01-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Hey, I have a quick question. LP mentioned that somebody needs to ask the A's about their new washer & dryer. If I remember right, it was on NG last week sometime. While I realize that alot of what he says might be based on rumor or second hand knowledge, sometimes his statements show some merit. Does anyone know if this is true? Did CA purchase a new washing machine, or a combination of washer & dryer? Has LE checked into it? Thanks.

Might be worth going through all of the garage pictures again (lots in the thread about the A's house and floorplan). They had a hard time trying to decide exactly where the washer and dryer were....and even appeared to be in two different places at one point!

Maybe they did switch them out and had old ones still in the garage until picked up? Interesting!

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 05:43 PM
Might be worth going through all of the garage pictures again (lots in the thread about the A's house and floorplan). They had a hard time trying to decide exactly where the washer and dryer were....and even appeared to be in two different places at one point!

Maybe they did switch them out and had old ones still in the garage until picked up? Interesting!
Good luck with that

Might want to also go back and check the finding of Caylees remains in the river.
2 rocks and a small piece of plastic.

reeseeva
01-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Definately not.

This was argued a lot. The documents are worded poorly but I am convinced it says plastic last. The scene of crimes officer's description of scene as he arrives talks of skull on ground in front of black plastic bag. There was other evidence. I hope thats enough to turn you back to the light side and away from the Dark Side where people think the laundry bag was on the outside.


Thank you for the clarification:blowkiss:

Steely Dan
01-30-2009, 05:47 PM
YES
I agree.

I hate all the rumour spreading but.........
Do you know of any real evidence to support the story that a section of Dry Wall was taken from Garage by LE?

I just did a quick search on the internet and couldn't find anything on it.

Tinsel
01-30-2009, 05:52 PM
I've always suspected the garage was the key murder area too, because KC was seen by a neighbor backing the car in once (if I remember correctly). And she was seen there on another occasions by the neighbor who said it was unusual behavior that stood out in his mind. He also remembers another vehicle which I guess was one that she borrowed.

She used the garage as some sort of staging area.

Also, she obviously carried out some of the crime in the child's room too--because of the blanket and toys.

:chicken:

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 05:58 PM
I just did a quick search on the internet and couldn't find anything on it.
NO
I've looked and found nothing.
Thanks for looking it is a least some confirmation of the negative

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 06:00 PM
I've always suspected the garage was the key murder area too, because KC was seen by a neighbor backing the car in once (if I remember correctly). And she was seen there on another occasions by the neighbor who said it was unusual behavior that stood out in his mind. He also remembers another vehicle which I guess was one that she borrowed.

She used the garage as some sort of staging area.

Also, she obviously carried out some of the crime in the child's room too--because of the blanket and toys.

:chicken:
My understanding is KC backed in 3 times. 17th 18th 20th.
In my scenario they were time she was messing with the body in the trunk, or in the garage or around in the backyard.

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 06:06 PM
I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds for the use of)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform for the unwitting creation of)

Lanie
01-30-2009, 06:29 PM
My understanding is KC backed in 3 times. 17th 18th 20th.
In my scenario they were time she was messing with the body in the trunk, or in the garage or around in the backyard.


I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds for the use of)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform for the unwitting creation of)

I've wondered if Casey carried Caylee out to her car in the laundry hamper, and also took the detergent that was found in the trunk so if anyone saw her, they would just assume she was off to the laundromat.
I really believe Caylee was killed on June 16th, and I can't imagine her body being left in the house for any length of time after her death, because they have those 2 dogs. I know logic has very little to do with this case, but it also strikes me as bizarre to think Casey would carry Caylee outside and leave her on the ground while she attempts to dig a hole to bury her. I can throw out explanations for the 3 times she backs into the garage, but I can't claim they are all that rational. :confused:
Lanie

Marina2
01-30-2009, 06:53 PM
Definately not.

This was argued a lot. The documents are worded poorly but I am convinced it says plastic last. The scene of crimes officer's description of scene as he arrives talks of skull on ground in front of black plastic bag. There was other evidence. I hope thats enough to turn you back to the light side and away from the Dark Side where people think the laundry bag was on the outside.
Per Yuri Melich on page 3168 of discovery documents (search warrants):

"The remains appeared to have originally been within a black plastic garbage bag and within a cloth laundry hamper bag. There was a piece of silver duct tape over the mouth area of the skull. The skull, bag, and loose bones were collected and taken to the Orange County Medical Examiner's office for further examination."

The bag situation can be interpreted different ways from Yuri's report. Garbage bag within the laundry bag , laundry bag within the garbage bag, or the remains could have been in a black bag as well as in a laundry bag.

It's never clearly stated how the remains were bagged but it's interesting to note that the report can be interpreted as saying the remains were in two separate bags. I know this only adds to the confusion but it is what it is!:crazy:

Logically, the plastic bag was on the outside and that's what I'm going with but we really don't know. I wonder if the ambiguity is intentional?

Rumpole
01-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Per Yuri Melich on page 3168 of discovery documents (search warrants):

"The remains appeared to have originally been within a black plastic garbage bag and within a cloth laundry hamper bag. There was a piece of silver duct tape over the mouth area of the skull. The skull, bag, and loose bones were collected and taken to the Orange County Medical Examiner's office for further examination."

The bag situation can be interpreted different ways from Yuri's report. Garbage bag within the laundry bag , laundry bag within the garbage bag, or the remains could have been in a black bag as well as in a laundry bag.

It's never clearly stated how the remains were bagged but it's interesting to note that the report can be interpreted as saying the remains were in two separate bags. I know this only adds to the confusion but it is what it is!:crazy:

Logically, the plastic bag was on the outside and that's what I'm going with but we really don't know. I wonder if the ambiguity is intentional?
I fear you are an elf working for the dark side.

reeseeva
01-30-2009, 08:19 PM
Per Yuri Melich on page 3168 of discovery documents (search warrants):

"The remains appeared to have originally been within a black plastic garbage bag and within a cloth laundry hamper bag. There was a piece of silver duct tape over the mouth area of the skull. The skull, bag, and loose bones were collected and taken to the Orange County Medical Examiner's office for further examination."

The bag situation can be interpreted different ways from Yuri's report. Garbage bag within the laundry bag , laundry bag within the garbage bag, or the remains could have been in a black bag as well as in a laundry bag.

It's never clearly stated how the remains were bagged but it's interesting to note that the report can be interpreted as saying the remains were in two separate bags. I know this only adds to the confusion but it is what it is!:crazy:

Logically, the plastic bag was on the outside and that's what I'm going with but we really don't know. I wonder if the ambiguity is intentional?

Marina, Excellent interpretation, & definitely ambiguous....I'd say you are from the Spock's form of Logic!

Skully
01-31-2009, 11:33 AM
Per Yuri Melich on page 3168 of discovery documents (search warrants):

"The remains appeared to have originally been within a black plastic garbage bag and within a cloth laundry hamper bag. There was a piece of silver duct tape over the mouth area of the skull. The skull, bag, and loose bones were collected and taken to the Orange County Medical Examiner's office for further examination."

The bag situation can be interpreted different ways from Yuri's report. Garbage bag within the laundry bag , laundry bag within the garbage bag, or the remains could have been in a black bag as well as in a laundry bag.

It's never clearly stated how the remains were bagged but it's interesting to note that the report can be interpreted as saying the remains were in two separate bags. I know this only adds to the confusion but it is what it is!:crazy:

Logically, the plastic bag was on the outside and that's what I'm going with but we really don't know. I wonder if the ambiguity is intentional?

OMG, I just had a horrible image. Laundry bags bags have a tie at the top. If you put a child in a bag and tied it at the neck, the child couldn't use it's hands or feet. You could then drug them and duct tape the mouth and they wouldn't be able to take the tape off....:eek::eek::eek:

Rumpole
01-31-2009, 03:11 PM
OMG, I just had a horrible image. Laundry bags bags have a tie at the top. If you put a child in a bag and tied it at the neck, the child couldn't use it's hands or feet. You could then drug them and duct tape the mouth and they wouldn't be able to take the tape off....:eek::eek::eek:
That is a horrible image. Possible on the basis of the evidence, but I try and think about the overall situation at the time, and it seems more likely the laundry bag was used to hide the body from potential wittnesses by the neighbours. It would not have been out of place if she was carrying a laundry bag to the back yard, along the side of the house.

Rumpole
02-02-2009, 05:01 AM
KC, out of character backed into the Garage 3 times

I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds, for the use of doing)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform, for the unwitting creation of)

Jersey*Girl
02-02-2009, 07:49 AM
KC, out of character backed into the Garage 3 times

I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds, for the use of doing)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform, for the unwitting creation of)

I totally agree. Also, I read something along the lines of a portion of drywall being removed from the A's garage - do we know that to be a fact yet, or is it just rumor? Have you heard about this? If it's a fact, what could have been on that drywall that the police were so interested in testing? The reason I'm suggesting this is b/c Dr. G stated there was no trauma to the bones: ie no breaks, cuts, etc. So with that knowledge, I'm inclined to think that there wasn't a massive amount of blood on the wall.

Rumpole
02-02-2009, 08:04 AM
I totally agree. Also, I read something along the lines of a portion of drywall being removed from the A's garage - do we know that to be a fact yet, or is it just rumor? Have you heard about this? If it's a fact, what could have been on that drywall that the police were so interested in testing? The reason I'm suggesting this is b/c Dr. G stated there was no trauma to the bones: ie no breaks, cuts, etc. So with that knowledge, I'm inclined to think that there wasn't a massive amount of blood on the wall.
It's just rumour.

I have sought evidence, nothing has turned up.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 08:12 AM
KC, out of character backed into the Garage 3 times

I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds, for the use of doing)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform, for the unwitting creation of)

Excellent. Makes sense to me. :thumb:

Rumpole
02-02-2009, 08:26 AM
Excellent. Makes sense to me. :thumb:
I thought somebody might argue with "with the main door closed"

I see no mention of this. I am guessing.

I there any testimony or evidence for that?

maza
02-02-2009, 12:54 PM
ITA! (Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm where have I heard this before lol!) Doesn't sound the least crazy to me (no less plausible than all the farfetched theories we hear). No actually, it is perfectly consistent w/ what we know of KC's self-involved, disorganized personality. KC lacked among many things the right priorities, good judgment, parenting skills and especially the maturity and selflessness to make the necessary sacrifices for her child. I just don't think that necessarily equates w malice and forethought. There was nothing preventing her from a party lifesyle when her parents had offered to assume custody and KC could have disappeared w/OUT Caylee--and been entirely free to do whatever she wanted. And there is more than one possible interpretation of her behavior following her daughter's death. One is the 'Dancing on the Grave' explanation. But it's also possible that all her high risk, manic behaviors simply escalated in her own attempt to escape the reality of what had happened. It doesn't villify or demonize KC, but as the mother of a 20 year-old daughter myself and grandmother to her two-year old daughter, one can only hope that should a young already labelled "unfit" unbalanced mother's self-centered, narcissistic behavior, poor priorities and childish preoccupation lead to the death of their child, they would have the courage, humility and mental stability to respond to that sort of trauma and tragedy in a brave, realistic or responsible way. IMO there just isn't the least shred, nothing whatsoever in KC's past indicating we could expect this kind of mentally stable response from her in the aftermath of this sort of scenario. JMO

wow and thanks!

Indigo
02-02-2009, 01:47 PM
Hey, don't sweat it. There are lots of times I feel like I am the only one who thinks the chloroform is actually relevant. The bottom line is they are all theories based on the way we each have viewed the evidence. LOL, if we all agreed on every point, there would be nothing to discuss.
Lanie

Ha, ha! I know how you feel, Lanie.:) I still think chloroform is relevant to this case. The latest search warrant underscores that for me. Depending on what's allowed into evidence it may be hard to prove though.

I love that there are differing opinions on WS -- I learn so much from everyone here!

:blowkiss:

maza
02-02-2009, 04:01 PM
minor but wanted to mention:

i have never cut duct tape with a knife so i don't think the knife was used to cut duct tape. - 99% of the time i rip it with hands or use teeth if it is really tough, or use scissors. (fyi - i am around the same size as casey).

also, i use duct tape a lot and have several rolls of it around in various places: car, basement, toolkit,etc. i buy several rolls at once - wondering if the roll that was used was part of a package of 3 and how that would affect forensics of matching tape to a particular roll.

Chilly Willy
02-02-2009, 04:08 PM
minor but wanted to mention:

i have never cut duct tape with a knife so i don't think the knife was used to cut duct tape. - 99% of the time i rip it with hands or use teeth if it is really tough, or use scissors. (fyi - i am around the same size as casey).

also, i use duct tape a lot and have several rolls of it around in various places: car, basement, toolkit,etc. i buy several rolls at once - wondering if the roll that was used was part of a package of 3 and how that would affect forensics of matching tape to a particular roll.

Without having 3 hands, it's almost impossible to cut duct tape with a knife.

Rumpole
02-04-2009, 03:32 PM
Ha, ha! I know how you feel, Lanie.:) I still think chloroform is relevant to this case. The latest search warrant underscores that for me. Depending on what's allowed into evidence it may be hard to prove though.

I love that there are differing opinions on WS -- I learn so much from everyone here!

:blowkiss:
Chloroform is very relevant because it has come up in the KC computer search and the forensics. LE would be derelict in their duty if they did not investigate and search for evidence. However, the fact that it is being investigated does not alone make it anymore significant than it is. It is just a possibility. The evidence may prove it to be very important or totally irrelevant to the crime.

kikid
02-04-2009, 04:54 PM
KC, out of character backed into the Garage 3 times

I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds, for the use of doing)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform, for the unwitting creation of)

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.

Rumpole
02-04-2009, 05:14 PM
Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.
Welcome along.

Beware I have not been here that long. It can be very addictive.

Your "running over" theory is very plausible. Not one I have seen before, so you have managed come up with a good possibility.
There are several other "accident" notions eg pool accident, left in hot car, over medicated etc.
What puts me off all of them is that KC would be in her element if she reported an accident. She could, and would, make up a story, certainly excusing herself, and blaming others. She could play the grieving Mom and injured party. I think in fact she killed Caylee in a rage and then contemplated staging an accident (eg in pool).
With all that has happened, I would have expected KC to own up to an accident by now?

Shaymus at The Rock
02-04-2009, 05:19 PM
KC, out of character backed into the Garage 3 times

I think whatever the true details of “What Happened to Caylee” turn out to be, the most critical place involved is; inside the Anthony Garage with the main door closed. Early on either a dead Caylee was placed in the trunk of the Pontiac, or a live Caylee, gagged with duct tape, and possibly sedated was placed in the trunk. Either done inside the garage. Later, I have little doubt, Caylee’s body was moved in and out of the trunk. Again inside the garage. On at least one occasion, the body was transported to the backyard, probably via the side garage door, the gate, along the North side of the house to the Pool Area, and the Play Area, before being returned by the reverse route to the garage and the trunk. Probably wrapped in Pooh blanket and placed in a laundry bag early on, and only finally sealed in a black plastic rubbish bag, (with as yet not revealed colour ties), and placed pen ultimately in the trunk. The final act of dumping the body was played out soon after leaving the Anthony garage with the body thusly prepared (20thJune), or after one of two subsequent visits to the Anthony home by KC on 23rd and 24th June 2008.

I think it is important to stress:
The Garage with Laundry set up, is a place you are likely to find:

1. Duct Tape

2. Laundry Bag

3. Black Plastic Garbage Bag.

4. Complete Privacy (Nefarious Deeds, for the use of doing)

5. All maner of Cleaning Products and Chemicals. (Chloroform, for the unwitting creation of)

6. What appears to be big bin of heart stickers.

itsyourworld
02-04-2009, 05:22 PM
Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.

the only problem (hello and welcome!) with this theory is that according to the ME there was no antemortem trauma to the bones. surely hitting a small child with your car enough to kill them would cause trauma to the bones, if nothing else bruising in the brain box. but there was no trauma to the bone. someone else suggested that she was packing up the car with the door down and caylee was sleeping in the seat and she left the car running with the a/c going and caylee asphyxiated that way. one thing i know for sure is the possibilities are tragically endless as to how this young child lost her life.

Meemom
02-04-2009, 05:27 PM
Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.

Welcome!
I can't quite buy the auto accident theory, since the ME said no pre-death trauma to the bones....if KC ran over her by accident, I think the poor baby would have had multiple broken bones or head trauma that could have been seen.....JMO

Rumpole
02-04-2009, 05:31 PM
6. What appears to be big bin of heart stickers.
Ah, the old bin of hearts in the garage?

Quite a find by the photo snoop!

Good background and links to a "heart" interest, but the hearts in that box do not look like "stickers". I am imagining something smaller, but no evidence for that.

CarrieBean
02-04-2009, 05:57 PM
Without having 3 hands, it's almost impossible to cut duct tape with a knife.

Not if it's been stuck to something before cutting.

kikid
02-04-2009, 08:45 PM
Welcome along.

Beware I have not been here that long. It can be very addictive.

Your "running over" theory is very plausible. Not one I have seen before, so you have managed come up with a good possibility.
There are several other "accident" notions eg pool accident, left in hot car, over medicated etc.
What puts me off all of them is that KC would be in her element if she reported an accident. She could, and would, make up a story, certainly excusing herself, and blaming others. She could play the grieving Mom and injured party. I think in fact she killed Caylee in a rage and then contemplated staging an accident (eg in pool).
With all that has happened, I would have expected KC to own up to an accident by now?

thanks for the welcome! I have not read all of the threads here yet, so I may be lacking some basic info too. I thought cadaver dogs had hit on the trunk and the yard, but had never heard of them hitting inside the house. IMHO that would rule out some things like drowning in the tub, over medicated and died during nap, or being beaten to death. Of course, as I said I haven't read all of the info yet and they could have found indications of death inside.

I thought the quote was perhaps very telling. She said her dad maybe "Ran over something" to explain the awful smell in her car. She didn't say "Ran over an animal" or "Hit an animal", but "ran over something".

Of course the other theory is plausible as well (as many many are), she could have left her sleeping in the car in the garage.... if the vehicle was on and garage door down - or even the garage door open and the vehicle off (heat).

I wonder if there had been any cases of mothers being convicted & sentenced to serious prison time down there in a similar situation of leaving a child in a hot car???? If she'd heard stories on the news, this might make her less likely to dial 911 upon discovering her baby dead. ?? just another theory to add to the extensive list.

Rumpole
02-04-2009, 08:53 PM
thanks for the welcome! I have not read all of the threads here yet, so I may be lacking some basic info too. I thought cadaver dogs had hit on the trunk and the yard, but had never heard of them hitting inside the house. IMHO that would rule out some things like drowning in the tub, over medicated and died during nap, or being beaten to death. Of course, as I said I haven't read all of the info yet and they could have found indications of death inside.

I thought the quote was perhaps very telling. She said her dad maybe "Ran over something" to explain the awful smell in her car. She didn't say "Ran over an animal" or "Hit an animal", but "ran over something".

Of course the other theory is plausible as well (as many many are), she could have left her sleeping in the car in the garage.... if the vehicle was on and garage door down - or even the garage door open and the vehicle off (heat).

I wonder if there had been any cases of mothers being convicted & sentenced to serious prison time down there in a similar situation of leaving a child in a hot car???? If she'd heard stories on the news, this might make her less likely to dial 911 upon discovering her baby dead. ?? just another theory to add to the extensive list.
You should have a look thru some threads.

One good reference is the Floor Plan thread. I started that so am blatantly biased. The thread is a lot of trying to sort things out, so just need to go to the end page and see the latest Floor Plan. It shows spots where the Cadaver dogs "hit" etc.

Also there are threads and polls of where WSers think Caylee died, in house or car etc, and an older poll of what room she might have died in. Don't know if you want to see what others think before, or after you decide for yourself?
Happy Sleuthing

kikid
02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
You should have a look thru some threads.

One good reference is the Floor Plan thread. I started that so am blatantly biased. The thread is a lot of trying to sort things out, so just need to go to the end page and see the latest Floor Plan. It shows spots where the Cadaver dogs "hit" etc.

Also there are threads and polls of where WSers think Caylee died, in house or car etc, and an older poll of what room she might have died in. Don't know if you want to see what others think before, or after you decide for yourself?
Happy Sleuthing

Will definitely check them out! thanks!! There is so much info to read through here, haven't gotten very far yet.

hornswoggled
02-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm not defending nor am I trying to justify what happened to Caylee. I feel that her death was unintentional, perhaps accidental. I do not know how it happened, but I do suspect an overdose of some kind. And I feel it wasn't the first time a drug was used on Caylee. Casey was putting Caylee at risk with her selfish lifestyle.

I do not think that Casey is a planner by any stretch of the imagination. I do not think this death was a premeditated event. There were too many panic-induced scenarios that seem to be evolving. Borrowing a shovel, going to the back yard to hide her, then that didn't work out. Putting her body in the car trunk. Well that didn't work out so well either. I feel that she really didn't know what in the world to do. The ONE thing that she was sure of........she wouldn't tell a soul, no matter what.

I think she didn't count on just how much body fluid is produced by a decomposing body. Perhaps the fluid escaped out the mouth and nose, the path of least resistance and thereby she used duct tape to hold the fluid in. We may never know what hell Casey went through trying all alone to decide what to do with her daughter's body. Sheer panic. She let too much time pass and told too many lies to back up and tell the truth. The heart sticker was Casey's way of saying "I didn't mean for this to happen, I'm sorry". It's not much, but it's all she could muster.

I think the disposing of the body where she did was also a hasty decision provoked by Lord only knows what. If Caylee's death had been premeditated, she would have picked a more remote location, thought out well in advance. All she could think to do - was run and hide - and lie as she had always done to cover her tracks. After two or three weeks, it seemed to be working for her. So, she used the same old worn-out lie over and over. "She's fine. She's with the Nanny".

Casey is in a very bad place right now. The only thing that would serve her well is the truth. But with attorneys determined to get her off, she will not be able to tell the truth at all. She's stuck. She's angry because her parents can't get her out of this one. The one little person who loved her no matter what - is gone from her life. Perhaps one day, she just might get a glimmering of just how much she was loved.

Devon
02-07-2009, 04:56 PM
I'm not at all convinced that GA's recollection of the events of June 16 is accurate. I think it's more likely that he was recalling what happened on June 9, a date that was initially firmly fixed in CA's mind (and subsequently in GA's) as the last date either of them had seen Caylee, and a date on which KC and Caylee did in fact spend the night away from the house - at RM's.

I really don't accept that he could have recalled any particular day that was at least a month past, in so much detail as he appears to have done with June 16, particularly in respect of what KC and Caylee were wearing/carrying and what was said between them. If it had been a significant day in any other respect, one might expect to have certain particular memories, but there is no evidence that, for GA at least, Monday June 16 was anything other than a normal day and of no particular significance at the time. He was not privy to the alleged fight of the evening before, and it's quite likely that he was told very little, if anything, of the details. Also, the items of Caylee's found in the car/at the disposal site do not match his descriptions of her clothes and backpack.

So.......if we take out of the equation his testimony about that day, this leaves us with some alternative possibilities for the chain of events that may have happened. We know that KC was most likely at home throughout the night/early morning of 15/16 and there appears to be PC activity by her during both the morning and afternoon of the 16th, with various breaks in that activity. The first is around Caylee's likely breakfast/getting washed/dressed time. The 2nd is around 1 o'clock, when it is still possible that KC went out with Caylee for a while in order to perpetuate the 'going to work' story, but it may not be true that she stated any intention of staying elsewhere that night with Caylee.

I have thought that maybe they didn't leave the house at all, but instead KC put Caylee down to sleep and carried on with her phone chats/PC use. But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious :eek: when she was taken out of the car.

As to what happened to her that day, I haven't any firm theories, but there's a few things I just don't think are likely. First, I don't think she died (however caused) overnight, because GA was at home on weekday mornings, there's no evidence (yet) that he went anywhere that morning, and it's just not feasible that he wouldn't query KC's obvious presence in the house, but with no visible 'alive' Caylee. I also can't see KC secreting a dead Caylee anywhere in the house with GA around.

I also don't believe it's necessarily true that KC planned to go and see AL that evening, much less stay overnight. It was a Monday, there was no Fusion, nor any evidence of any other event happening (they ended up renting videos) and also it was supposed to be college as usual for AL the following day, although he ended up staying home with KC, apparently not a preplanned decision. I think she pitched up there unexpectedly, and only because she needed to hide from her parents.

I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.

To all those who say that they are 'certain' that they would never harm their child even if they were pushed to the brink, all I can say is you have to actually have been teetering on the edge of that abyss, either physically, emotionally or psychologically before you can be sure that your grip on self-control wouldn't fail you. It does happen, to all sorts of people, including those who would never otherwise, consciously or deliberately, hurt any living thing.

Rumpole
02-07-2009, 05:20 PM
I'm not at all convinced that GA's recollection of the events of June 16 is accurate. I think it's more likely that he was recalling what happened on June 9, a date that was initially firmly fixed in CA's mind (and subsequently in GA's) as the last date either of them had seen Caylee, and a date on which KC and Caylee did in fact spend the night away from the house - at RM's.

I really don't accept that he could have recalled any particular day that was at least a month past, in so much detail as he appears to have done with June 16, particularly in respect of what KC and Caylee were wearing/carrying and what was said between them. If it had been a significant day in any other respect, one might expect to have certain particular memories, but there is no evidence that, for GA at least, Monday June 16 was anything other than a normal day and of no particular significance at the time. He was not privy to the alleged fight of the evening before, and it's quite likely that he was told very little, if anything, of the details. Also, the items of Caylee's found in the car/at the disposal site do not match his descriptions of her clothes and backpack.

So.......if we take out of the equation his testimony about that day, this leaves us with some alternative possibilities for the chain of events that may have happened. We know that KC was most likely at home throughout the night/early morning of 15/16 and there appears to be PC activity by her during both the morning and afternoon of the 16th, with various breaks in that activity. The first is around Caylee's likely breakfast/getting washed/dressed time. The 2nd is around 1 o'clock, when it is still possible that KC went out with Caylee for a while in order to perpetuate the 'going to work' story, but it may not be true that she stated any intention of staying elsewhere that night with Caylee.

I have thought that maybe they didn't leave the house at all, but instead KC put Caylee down to sleep and carried on with her phone chats/PC use. But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious :eek: when she was taken out of the car.

As to what happened to her that day, I haven't any firm theories, but there's a few things I just don't think are likely. First, I don't think she died (however caused) overnight, because GA was at home on weekday mornings, there's no evidence (yet) that he went anywhere that morning, and it's just not feasible that he wouldn't query KC's obvious presence in the house, but with no visible 'alive' Caylee. I also can't see KC secreting a dead Caylee anywhere in the house with GA around.

I also don't believe it's necessarily true that KC planned to go and see AL that evening, much less stay overnight. It was a Monday, there was no Fusion, nor any evidence of any other event happening (they ended up renting videos) and also it was supposed to be college as usual for AL the following day, although he ended up staying home with KC, apparently not a preplanned decision. I think she pitched up there unexpectedly, and only because she needed to hide from her parents.

I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.

To all those who say that they are 'certain' that they would never harm their child even if they were pushed to the brink, all I can say is you have to actually have been teetering on the edge of that abyss, either physically, emotionally or psychologically before you can be sure that your grip on self-control wouldn't fail you. It does happen, to all sorts of people, including those who would never otherwise, consciously or deliberately, hurt any living thing.


I think it is usefull to at least down play any reliance on the GA testimony. Though one thing I would suggest MIGHT be a plus indicator for GA testimony is that within days after he might have been already trying, for his own sake, to remember the "last time" he saw Caylee, and so remember details. (perhaps correctly or perhaps confused with other cccasions).
Since KC did turn up at AL's without Caylee, she must have been already dead or alive and hidden away. The trunk? Certainly not being looked after by a one armed imaginary Nanny?
I have trouble with KC 's demenour with AL whatever the truth about Caylee is, but even more than for other possibilities I can not believe Caylee had just been killed in an accident?
The more I see the Video shop evidence, the more I think Caylee must have still been alive at that time? (At the least KC thought she was alive)

gardenhart
02-07-2009, 06:24 PM
Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.

I see no indication that Cindy and George would have jumped at the chance to take custody. In fact, Cindy had told coworkers that the therapist suggested that and she couldn't afford it.

Also, according to court documents, Cindy had been pressuring Casey lately about taking more responsibility for Caylee.

I think it's perfectly plausible that Casey wanted freedom, wanted to get back at her mother, was jealous of Caylee, flew into a rage - any number of motives or perhaps all of them.

Nor do I believe if Caylee's death was anything other than murder even Casey wouldn't have eventually admitted it was an accident rather than face life in prison or the death penalty.

kikid
02-07-2009, 06:32 PM
I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.



I agree with this. Also the explanation for her behavior after is explained if we look at how KC dealt with situations in her past. KC was super duper good at ignoring the reality of a situation, keeping secrets, and pretending things were "normal".

1. How long did it take before anyone noticed she was pregnant? I've read something about she didn't know she was pregnant for some time.... seems her family went along with this and never realized she was pregnant either.

2. KC gets fired, but for two years she pretends she is still working. This isn't delusion its fantasy, secret keeping, and putting on appearances.

3. A tragic accident, probably due to her negligence, happens to Caylee but instead of acting in the way most people would, she actually reacts completely typical for herself and just pretends it didn't happen. Just another horrible secret she must keep.

This is probably a girl who has kept many horrible and tragic secrets all her life. Her family goes along too, heck they are the ones who taught her how to keep secrets so well, lie to cover up things or "Protect" people she loved & herself, and to avoid being held accountable.

editing to add:

also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.

Rumpole
02-07-2009, 06:42 PM
I agree with this. Also the explanation for her behavior after is explained if we look at how KC dealt with situations in her past. KC was super duper good at ignoring the reality of a situation, keeping secrets, and pretending things were "normal".

1. How long did it take before anyone noticed she was pregnant? I've read something about she didn't know she was pregnant for some time.... seems her family went along with this and never realized she was pregnant either.

2. KC gets fired, but for two years she pretends she is still working. This isn't delusion its fantasy, secret keeping, and putting on appearances.

3. A tragic accident, probably due to her negligence, happens to Caylee but instead of acting in the way most people would, she actually reacts completely typical for herself and just pretends it didn't happen. Just another horrible secret she must keep.

This is probably a girl who has kept many horrible and tragic secrets all her life. Her family goes along too, heck they are the ones who taught her how to keep secrets so well, lie to cover up things or "Protect" people she loved & herself, and to avoid being held accountable.

editing to add:

also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.
I think if a tragic "accident" happened, KC would behave exactly like KC. She would be in her element. Making up a story, spinning the fact about how she was the heroine, valiantly trying to help, blaming other people for the accident. That stuff is day to day stuff for KC. If there was an accident she would have welcomed and embraced it. It would free her of any responsibilities. It would make her the grieving "Tot Mom". Publicity and no doubt money for the story. If an accident had happened she would have loved it. I think she spent 2 or three days trying to make the death LOOK like an accident. That is exactly what she wanted. I don't think she was that "Lucky". It was was not an accident.

kikid
02-07-2009, 06:53 PM
I think if a tragic "accident" happened, KC would behave exactly like KC. She would be in her element. Making up a story, spinning the fact about how she was the heroine, valiantly trying to help, blaming other people for the accident. That stuff is day to day stuff for KC. If there was an accident she would have welcomed and embraced it. It would free her of any responsibilities. It would make her the grieving "Tot Mom". Publicity and no doubt money for the story. If an accident had happened she would have loved it. I think she spent 2 or three days trying to make the death LOOK like an accident. That is exactly what she wanted. I don't think she was that "Lucky". It was was not an accident.

see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

Rumpole
02-07-2009, 07:00 PM
see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.
She avoided nothing ultimately. I think if there was even half a chance of an accident story, we would have heard it.

kikid
02-07-2009, 07:26 PM
She avoided nothing ultimately. I think if there was even half a chance of an accident story, we would have heard it.

that is the truth, ultimately she will avoid nothing. Knowing her MO (taking police to Universal, walking them inside the building & down a hall.... before finally admitting to them she didn't work there), tells me she may break after being sentenced to death (if then) or right before they stick the needle in her arm.

I'm not saying I don't think she is all screwed up, I think she is, but I just don't see any degree of planning here, only reacting - and lies to cover her own guilt or shame.

of course I could be completely wrong. :crazy:

Devon
02-07-2009, 07:34 PM
see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

kikid
02-07-2009, 07:41 PM
I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

i agree.

hornswoggled
02-07-2009, 07:51 PM
I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

I am in agreement. I also find another comment of hers very telling. It was when she was being interviewed by LE officers the second time at Universal.

LE: Did Zenaida give you any money that day?
KC: No. I would not have sold my daughter. If I wanted to really just rid of her, I would have left her with my parents and I would have left. I would have moved out. I would have given my Mom custody.

I believe she really didn't want to "just get rid of her" or she simply would have turned over custody to her parents. She was inconvenienced by Caylee and I believe she may have started drugging her with whatever and it turned into something far worse than Casey could have ever imagined. She didn't know what to do but cover up and lie. She couldn't face her family.

It's Not the Nanny
02-07-2009, 07:51 PM
Snipped from Devon: But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.


I've never thought about how the doll might play into that day.

I think there is a huge probability that KC pretended to go to work at 12:50 (KC stalling as long as possible knowing GA would be leaving soon and juggling Caylee's ever approaching naptime).

KC put Caylee in the car and drove around the corner or a few blocks away while Caylee fell asleep (very reasonable given Caylee's age and the time of day). Much easier to stall and drive around the neighborhood for a bit with an asleep Caylee.

KC returns to the A's home after GA has left and she carries Caylee into the house and puts her in bed (AH has verified that Caylee was a deep and heavy sleeper so transferring her probably was easy).

The Mama doll was left in the carseat.

At some point in the afternoon, KC kills Caylee and puts her into a laundry bag that is in the vicinity. She carries her to the trunk to hide her.

In the next 3 days, the fluids leak through the hamper bag so KC backs her car into the A's garage and bags in her a trashbag, attempts to clean car with several different cleaning agents (creating chloroform residue), and then dumps the body on her way out of the neighborhood.

I don't think we will ever know how she killed Caylee (sort of like how we don't know how Scott P killed Laci!). I think it was a "soft kill" of some sort (smothering, strangulation, overdose of meds) or being left in the hot car (which would change above theory of transferring a napping Caylee into the house but the doll would still be left in the carseat!).

kikid
02-07-2009, 08:00 PM
Snipped from Devon: But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.


I've never thought about how the doll might play into that day.

I think there is a huge probability that KC pretended to go to work at 12:50 (KC stalling as long as possible knowing GA would be leaving soon and juggling Caylee's ever approaching naptime).

KC put Caylee in the car and drove around the corner or a few blocks away while Caylee fell asleep (very reasonable given Caylee's age and the time of day). Much easier to stall and drive around the neighborhood for a bit with an asleep Caylee.

KC returns to the A's home after GA has left and she carries Caylee into the house and puts her in bed (AH has verified that Caylee was a deep and heavy sleeper so transferring her probably was easy).

The Mama doll was left in the carseat.

At some point in the afternoon, KC kills Caylee and puts her into a laundry bag that is in the vicinity. She carries her to the trunk to hide her.

At some point, in the next 3 days, the fluids leak through the hamper bag so KC backs her car into the A's garage and bags in her a trashbag, attempts to clean car with several different cleaning agents (creating chloroform residue), and then dumps the body on her way out of the neighborhood.

I don't think we will ever know how she killed Caylee (sort of like how we don't know how Scott P killed Laci!). I think it was a "soft kill" of some sort (smothering, strangulation, overdose of meds) or being left in the hot car (which would change above theory of transferring a napping Caylee into the house but the doll would still be left in the carseat!).

yes the garage is important as some of the previous posts talk about.

I've also considered why all the frantic (unanswered) calls to her family members if she intentionally killed the child? Surely an accident would explain this better.... until she realizes Caylee is gone and there is no use calling anyone. Or even if there was an accident calling and trying to find out when everyone is going to be home, to know how much time she had to figure out what to do?

I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations, in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

publius
02-07-2009, 08:08 PM
I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

I agree with some of this. But really, how afraid of CA was she really? Did she really care if CA would never forgive her? Sure she paid lip service to so much, but her actions, before and after Caylee's death do not add up.

I mean, she blatantly stole from CA over a long period of time. She blatantly stole from CA's family. If she was so scared and worried about CA's forgiveness (and perception of her), why would she treat CA like such sheet all the time? She told CA the most fantastic lies without a second thought as to the consequences or how they would effect CA. Yet, somehow she is afraid of her or worried about her forgiveness? According to LP (although he may not be the best source) KC ran that house, not CA. Doesn't sound like someone who is scared or worried about forgiveness...

I don't buy it. I think she liked to blame her actions (or inaction) on other people, and CA was the preferred (and perfect) target. In this light, she can never tell what really happened to Caylee, not through any fault of her own, but because of someone else (i.e., CA). In addition I believe, in KC's mind, Caylee died as a direct result of something CA did or didn't do. So really, KC (again, in her mind) has nothing to ask forgiveness for. If anything, CA should be asking for forgiveness from her (KC)!

It's Not the Nanny
02-07-2009, 08:08 PM
yes the garage is important as some of the previous posts talk about.

I've also considered why all the frantic (unanswered) calls to her family members if she intentionally killed the child? Surely an accident would explain this better.... until she realizes Caylee is gone and there is no use calling anyone. Or even if there was an accident calling and trying to find out when everyone is going to be home, to know how much time she had to figure out what to do?

I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations, in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

I think the "flurry of calls", IMO, is KC calling to see where everyone is, to see when people will be home, to cover her butt for why she and Caylee won't be home that night.

She went into a manic state and probably didn't want to be "alone". Who knows who she was talking to as she applied duct tape or pushed her into a laundry bag, you know?? Talking to people probably made that situation "easier"......like it wasn't happening. She was, as posters above said and I completely agree with, AVOIDING what was really going on.

The calls might also be an alibi.... "Hi Mom, I just got a call, have to work late, Zanny said we could crash at her place, won't be home tonight, dont' worry about the fight last night".

Devon
02-07-2009, 08:49 PM
I agree with some of this. But really, how afraid of CA was she really? Did she really care if CA would never forgive her? Sure she paid lip service to so much, but her actions, before and after Caylee's death do not add up.

I mean, she blatantly stole from CA over a long period of time. She blatantly stole from CA's family. If she was so scared and worried about CA's forgiveness (and perception of her), why would she treat CA like such sheet all the time? She told CA the most fantastic lies without a second thought as to the consequences or how they would effect CA. Yet, somehow she is afraid of her or worried about her forgiveness? According to LP (although he may not be the best source) KC ran that house, not CA. Doesn't sound like someone who is scared or worried about forgiveness...

I don't buy it. I think she liked to blame her actions (or inaction) on other people, and CA was the preferred (and perfect) target. In this light, she can never tell what really happened to Caylee, not through any fault of her own, but because of someone else (i.e., CA). In addition I believe, in KC's mind, Caylee died as a direct result of something CA did or didn't do. So really, KC (again, in her mind) has nothing to ask forgiveness for. If anything, CA should be asking for forgiveness from her (KC)!

I agree that KC appears to be unafraid of CA, and that she blatantly stole from all and sundry, but IMO this behaviour had been so long condoned and excused by CA that she thought it didn't matter too much. I think the relationship between KC and CA was a very enmeshed and interdependent one, each accusing and blaming the other and yet needing each other emotionally, but not in a healthy way.

As to whether KC is blaming CA for Caylee's death, if it was an accident, she could well hold CA responsible in some way. If the pool ladder was left out, who left it there? If there were hazardous household substances or medications within Caylee's reach, or any other form of hazard in the house that day, who was responsible? It was KC's responsibility to watch and care for Caylee, but I can quite see her mentally offloading some blame of that sort onto CA.

kiki the parrot
02-08-2009, 08:32 PM
see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.


I'm not saying I don't think she is all screwed up, I think she is, but I just don't see any degree of planning here, only reacting - and lies to cover her own guilt or shame.

(bold mine, snipped) ITA. In place of an intolerable level of healthy guilt (which could then conceivably be alleviated or assuaged by a confession or admission), KC carries instead what apears to be a pathological load of shame.


I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.


I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations. in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) Exactly. It would be both risky and unnecessary to waste time making calls had she just committed a murder.


I agree that KC appears to be unafraid of CA, and that she blatantly stole from all and sundry, but IMO this behaviour had been so long condoned and excused by CA that she thought it didn't matter too much. I think the relationship between KC and CA was a very enmeshed and interdependent one, each accusing and blaming the other and yet needing each other emotionally, but not in a healthy way.

As to whether KC is blaming CA for Caylee's death, if it was an accident, she could well hold CA responsible in some way. If the pool ladder was left out, who left it there? If there were hazardous household substances or medications within Caylee's reach, or any other form of hazard in the house that day, who was responsible? It was KC's responsibility to watch and care for Caylee, but I can quite see her mentally offloading some blame of that sort onto CA.

(bold mine) Devon I strongly agree w this. I have long wondered (and posted to this effect) whether there might not have been some level of shared blame between these two which could be responsible for the puzzling collusion and protecting we've seen by CA. But one thing remains certain. IF Caylee's death was solely the result of KC's ultimate screw up, regardless of how skillful she may have been in the past at scapegoating or blameshifting, she realized this time was different--and as KC herself confessed to both LE and LA, she knew her mother could never forgive her. As always, JMHO
:parrot:

FaerieB
02-08-2009, 09:52 PM
also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.

To answer your question, it is covered in two different places in the last doc dump. The first is the forensics section report on page 42 where they state:

2. I observed what appeared to be duct tape on the mouth area of the skull.

The second place it's mentioned is in one of the warrants sought after Caylee's discovery.

Hope it helps.

FB

Amil
02-08-2009, 11:33 PM
I'm not defending nor am I trying to justify what happened to Caylee. I feel that her death was unintentional, perhaps accidental. I do not know how it happened, but I do suspect an overdose of some kind. And I feel it wasn't the first time a drug was used on Caylee. Casey was putting Caylee at risk with her selfish lifestyle.

I do not think that Casey is a planner by any stretch of the imagination. I do not think this death was a premeditated event. There were too many panic-induced scenarios that seem to be evolving. Borrowing a shovel, going to the back yard to hide her, then that didn't work out. Putting her body in the car trunk. Well that didn't work out so well either. I feel that she really didn't know what in the world to do. The ONE thing that she was sure of........she wouldn't tell a soul, no matter what.

I think she didn't count on just how much body fluid is produced by a decomposing body. Perhaps the fluid escaped out the mouth and nose, the path of least resistance and thereby she used duct tape to hold the fluid in. We may never know what hell Casey went through trying all alone to decide what to do with her daughter's body. Sheer panic. She let too much time pass and told too many lies to back up and tell the truth. The heart sticker was Casey's way of saying "I didn't mean for this to happen, I'm sorry". It's not much, but it's all she could muster.

I think the disposing of the body where she did was also a hasty decision provoked by Lord only knows what. If Caylee's death had been premeditated, she would have picked a more remote location, thought out well in advance. All she could think to do - was run and hide - and lie as she had always done to cover her tracks. After two or three weeks, it seemed to be working for her. So, she used the same old worn-out lie over and over. "She's fine. She's with the Nanny".

Casey is in a very bad place right now. The only thing that would serve her well is the truth. But with attorneys determined to get her off, she will not be able to tell the truth at all. She's stuck. She's angry because her parents can't get her out of this one. The one little person who loved her no matter what - is gone from her life. Perhaps one day, she just might get a glimmering of just how much she was loved.

That is a very well-thought out rationale. Kudos.

kikid
02-09-2009, 12:47 AM
To answer your question, it is covered in two different places in the last doc dump. The first is the forensics section report on page 42 where they state:

2. I observed what appeared to be duct tape on the mouth area of the skull.

The second place it's mentioned is in one of the warrants sought after Caylee's discovery.

Hope it helps.

FB

thanks for that info, i wasn't sure if it was speculated or known for fact.

piratemom
02-10-2009, 11:34 PM
Ok my theory tonight is 6/16 KC puts Caylee in he car and gives her some benedryl/xanax something to make her sleepy and fall asleep in the car so she can have some "me" time. Caylee either dies from an unwitting overdose of a sedative or heat exhaustion something like that and it was accidental. But KC doesnt know what to do and panicks. Caylee is already gone, she doesnt call 911. She tries to get her parents but cant hence the flurry of calls so she puts the baby in the trunk and goes on with her life and tells herself she is the victim in this accident. She puts Caylee in the bag with the heart sticker and thinks she will carry on with this charade until caught and then will claim the nanny did it.
After 7/15 calls and being "caught" she sticks with this nanny story until after the August interviews. When she tells CA, GA via a written letter what happened and that it was an accident and she was the victim in this. If CA hadnt made her keep the baby, If CA hadnt fought with her, made her work etc she wouldnt have been so tired, scattered to have let this accident happen. This is when we see a shift in the Anthonys behavior like they already know she is dead and they have to play this out so they wont lose KC too. Its also right about then this meter reader makes the 3 calls about finding the body, as if someone might have leaked this info...
This is my theory tonight.

robotdog
02-10-2009, 11:44 PM
some things are unforgiveable

simple as that


well, not to mention If you want forgiveness it might be a good start to actually admit the fault and then ASK for it

piratemom
02-11-2009, 04:59 PM
Bumpity bump

kew17
02-11-2009, 05:39 PM
I, too, seem to change my mind daily on what may have happened. I do, however, feel that kc at all costs, had to hide Caylee, unable as possible to not be found, for fear of someone being able to tell how she died. (ie: tox test) I really believe if it were truly an accident, she would have come forward immediately as her victim role would have been much too grand for her to pass up.

Rumpole
02-11-2009, 06:46 PM
IMO
The most critical item to determine/guess is the Time of Death.
Theories have proposed late on the night of 15th June thru 16th June to 17th June.
I can not recall any beyond then?
The exact time of death is linked to the manner of death, the place it occurred, and the time the body was dumped, or at least sealed in a black garbage bag.

seagull65
02-11-2009, 11:41 PM
Re: Poll --- You left out "other". For example, I think it's possible Caylee was assaulted/murdered but by someone other than KC.

Re: Chloroform --- RM had the chloroform joke on his facebook first, KC could have researched it for many reasons other than planning a murder. No reason to plan a murder because it would be so much easier to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy than kill her. Caylee was getting to an age that she could probably even go to public "headstart" or pre-K soon during the days and KC would have more free time than ever. I don't see the crisis of I have to kill Caylee to be free to party, she'd maintained her social life throughout Caylee's life for almost 3 years. If she was worried about Caylee getting to an age that she could tell the grandparents about what KC was really up to in her lifestyle, it would have been easiest for KC to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy, she probably knew from the track record that they would not file for formal custody or even if they did she could always see Caylee just as much as she wanted to. It would be the best of both worlds, really.

I think it's possible that when KC left her parents' house, and became dependent on guys for a place to stay, staying at the various apartments, getting wrapped up in Tony's promotions at the club, etc, maybe also increasing drug and alcohol use, and Caylee exposed to a lot more people, Caylee could have finally been accessed by the wrong person somewhere along the line. Due to KC's stealing, I think Caylee could have been caught somehow in the crossfire of something KC did. The mystery to me is why is KC covering up and who is she covering for, was she involved and to what degree, etc. Did she lose Caylee and was afraid to admit it and just kept looking? Did Caylee disappear while friends were watching her (i.e. may in a social gathering or at the club) and they told her the last person around Caylee was Z? Does KC know exactly what happened to Caylee and who did it but is afraid to accuse them? I flip flop. Because of KC's constant strange stories, apparent untruths that will be discovered immediately and disproved, I also can't rule out that she's just mentally not all there. Or else some of the statements we consider to be lies aren't.

seagull65
02-11-2009, 11:46 PM
I always leaned strongly toward an accident theory until the body was found with the tape on. To me the tape means that Caylee was assaulted and murdered. It seems very unlikely to me if KC were the perpetrator that she would leave the tape on, or that she would drive around with the body in the trunk and not dispose of it immediately, it (seems like she would only do that if she didn't know at first that Caylee's body was in the trunk, or if the body had been placed there and then moved without her knowledge or involvement. She lived with lots of people and hung out at the club with lots of people, I can't rule out someone accessing her car.) I also can't rule out KC killing Caylee but I see no reason for a premeditated murder, and find even an un-premeditated murder unlikely, maybe if she was really tripping on drugs. Still undecided.

I have always wondered too about the possibility that Caylee accidentally closed herself in the trunk but KC initially thought, due to the ongoing dispute with her parents, that her parents had taken Caylee so didn't search. Then when she realized what had happened, didn't know how to admit it, thought she was responsible and guilty, and possibly lost her weak mental hold on reality for a while.
What if Caylee died by accidentally ingesting drugs, or from an injury while being watched by one of KC's paramours or a friend, KC would be afraid to admit either of these to her parents.... But covering it up to the point of being charged with murder? Maybe if they said, hey, this wasn't my fault, you shouldn't have left her here, if you try to blame this on me, I'll tell them such and such, or we'll tell them it was you, or whatever. I don't know.
Then the tape. The tape blows any accident theories for me. I still don't know. Excuse my flip-flopping.

p.s. re: shovel, I find it hard to believe if KC wanted a shovel to either kill someone with or bury a body, that she would go asking for a neighbor's shovel.

txsvicki
02-12-2009, 12:06 AM
Maybe the neighbor had the type shovel that was wider to pick up something.

seagull65
02-12-2009, 12:13 AM
I, too, seem to change my mind daily on what may have happened. I do, however, feel that kc at all costs, had to hide Caylee, unable as possible to not be found, for fear of someone being able to tell how she died. (ie: tox test) I really believe if it were truly an accident, she would have come forward immediately as her victim role would have been much too grand for her to pass up.

that is a very good point, too.

cyberborg
02-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Re: Poll --- You left out "other". For example, I think it's possible Caylee was assaulted/murdered but by someone other than KC.

Re: Chloroform --- RM had the chloroform joke on his facebook first, KC could have researched it for many reasons other than planning a murder. No reason to plan a murder because it would be so much easier to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy than kill her. Caylee was getting to an age that she could probably even go to public "headstart" or pre-K soon during the days and KC would have more free time than ever. I don't see the crisis of I have to kill Caylee to be free to party, she'd maintained her social life throughout Caylee's life for almost 3 years. If she was worried about Caylee getting to an age that she could tell the grandparents about what KC was really up to in her lifestyle, it would have been easiest for KC to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy, she probably knew from the track record that they would not file for formal custody or even if they did she could always see Caylee just as much as she wanted to. It would be the best of both worlds, really.

I think it's possible that when KC left her parents' house, and became dependent on guys for a place to stay, staying at the various apartments, getting wrapped up in Tony's promotions at the club, etc, maybe also increasing drug and alcohol use, and Caylee exposed to a lot more people, Caylee could have finally been accessed by the wrong person somewhere along the line. Due to KC's stealing, I think Caylee could have been caught somehow in the crossfire of something KC did. The mystery to me is why is KC covering up and who is she covering for, was she involved and to what degree, etc. Did she lose Caylee and was afraid to admit it and just kept looking? Did Caylee disappear while friends were watching her (i.e. may in a social gathering or at the club) and they told her the last person around Caylee was Z? Does KC know exactly what happened to Caylee and who did it but is afraid to accuse them? I flip flop. Because of KC's constant strange stories, apparent untruths that will be discovered immediately and disproved, I also can't rule out that she's just mentally not all there. Or else some of the statements we consider to be lies aren't.

Doesn't add up. I seriously doubt that KC would spend months in jail, if not years (they say this could take 1-2 years before it goes to trial) to cover for anyone. Given KC's nature she would throw anyone she could under the bus immediately if she could be free and go party.

Also, in the 31 days before CA called 911 KC was feeding everyone stories on where Caylee was, at the beach, in Disney, with the Nanny, sleeping -- she was very comfortable and convincing with those lies. EVEN when caught until LA told her LE would make her take them to Caylee. Light goes on!! She gave CA the runaround such that when CA located KC that she was so frustrated she dialed 911, not only dialed but escalated.

KC has toughed it out all through this circus, through issues for her family, no matter what the price -- KC has paid the price in order to maintain her silence. Conscience of guilt.

We all see KC in the jail videos, she does not even want to really discuss Caylee, mention her, even ask for news of her when the family meeting first starts.

KC killed Caylee and is so over her, it is all about KC. Her own actions and statements convict her. The fingerprints on the duct tape (if true) seal the deal.

seagull65
02-12-2009, 12:49 AM
cyberborg, I don't disagree with you about KC's demeanor in prison. Very odd. I was bothered by exactly the same things everyone else was, trust me. We do have to remember that those phone calls and visitation videos were all from early in the case, it is possible that she didn't know yet that Caylee was dead, she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her, however naiive that might be. Of course she could have killed Caylee and could just be a complete psychopath, totally over it and just annoyed that anyone would want to talk about Caylee anymore because it is so unimportant to her. Obviously a possibility. Or she could be mentally ill, not unusual for onset to occur in the ealry twenties. But trust me, I ask all the same questions about her failure to report, strange stories, and demeanor.

cyberborg
02-12-2009, 01:06 AM
cyberborg, I don't disagree with you about KC's demeanor in prison. Very odd. I was bothered by exactly the same things everyone else was, trust me. We do have to remember that those phone calls and visitation videos were all from early in the case, it is possible that she didn't know yet that Caylee was dead, she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her, however naiive that might be. Of course she could have killed Caylee and could just be a complete psychopath, totally over it and just annoyed that anyone would want to talk about Caylee anymore because it is so unimportant to her. Obviously a possibility. Or she could be mentally ill, not unusual for onset to occur in the ealry twenties. But trust me, I ask all the same questions about her failure to report, strange stories, and demeanor.

I can buy mentally ill but not insane. I cannot buy "she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her". IMHO.

I do think JB is acting in his own best interest and NOT KC's. Every step of the way this case has escalated in stakes and the DP could return, KC should have plead out as an accident or manslaughter. She *might* get off on a technicality or the sympathetic one juror BUT she is prolonging her agony and fate, risking another break in the case as this plays out in the media.

claudicici
02-12-2009, 03:31 AM
I don't believe that anyone other than kc killed caylee either and I was also one that held on to some kind of accident theory until I found out about the duct tape and the heart.....but however vague the possibility is that someone was trying to frame kc and she was and is scared to admit the truth it is still a possibility that should be allowed to be discussed...

Doodlelover
02-12-2009, 11:24 AM
To Seagull


I understand exactly where you are coming from but feel I must point out that you are taking these things apart and examining them like a sane person. I can tell you aren't a sociopath just by the way you rationalize. See you say there was no reason for KC to kill Caylee because she could have just left her with CA. This is exactly what you or I or any "normal" person would do.

BUT, this is absolutley NOT what a Borderline or sociopath would do. If you have never experienced their thinking or the absolute disconnect they live with you cannot understand that YES, KC would have killed Caylee before she left her with CA for so many reason that make not a lick of sense to a normal person.

Why did Susan Smith drown her boys when her husband would have taken them in a heartbeat. Because in her twisted mind it would have made her look like a bad parent to just give away her boys. In the NORMAL mind we are like WTH, she thinks killing them makes her look better than just giving them to their dad? But see, she never thought people wouldn't believe her story or would care so much. Sound familiar.

But like you, I am not 100% sure that it was not accidental. The only thing that throws me is the duct tape. Even if it was accidental, I firmly believe that it was from neglect. From her busy talking on the phone while Caylee was asleep in the car in the garage or something. To me it is still KC's fault.

My theory is that she did leave the morning of the 16th as George said but she went to Lee's to wait until George went to work so she could come back to the house. I think this happened often as a cover for "work" I think she either medicated Caylee so she would nap at Lee's and quickly left Lee's to go over to the A's to pick up some of her stuff and when she got back to Lee's Caylee was gone from overdose, OR, she drove back from Lee's and Caylee fell asleep in the car and since she had no plans to stay at the A's, was just picking up some stuff, left Caylee in the car while she backed into the garage, she went into the house, got sidetracked on the computer or phone with JG or AH and when she finally went back out to check on Caylee she was gone from the heat if the car was off, or Carbon monoxide in the garage if she left the car on so that Caylee would have air conditioning.

I think she freaked out and rushed her to the pool to cool her down, but it was too late. She left the gate out in her panic and after she plunged Caylee into the pool, she laid her down beside the pool, thus the dogs hit here. She again quickly moved her over to the more private area of the yard, the playhouse area and layed here there and ran in the house and made a flurry of calls, none of which were answered. She knew she couldn't call 911, CA would never forgive her for causing Caylee's death. She went into automatic coverup mode and put her in the trunk. This I think is where the choloform may come from. The wet pool water and a combination of cleaning products later on.

Sorry this is so long. But that's my theory.

nyvictoria
02-12-2009, 11:56 AM
New to WS...my first post. This is a great site with many, many intelligent people!! I have a ton of reading to do to catch up so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

Re KC drugging Caylee...wouldn't LE be able to test Caylee's hair for drugs?

Sythy
02-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Seagull, I think your post is very interesting and I'm pretty certain that the defense is hoping that the the jury will think just like you are! And I have to agree with Doodle that your theory would work if KC was just an average sane person like yourself. Unfortunatly I don't think the same logic applies in her case! JMHO.

It's Not the Nanny
02-12-2009, 02:55 PM
To Seagull


I understand exactly where you are coming from but feel I must point out that you are taking these things apart and examining them like a sane person. I can tell you aren't a sociopath just by the way you rationalize. See you say there was no reason for KC to kill Caylee because she could have just left her with CA. This is exactly what you or I or any "normal" person would do.

BUT, this is absolutley NOT what a Borderline or sociopath would do. If you have never experienced their thinking or the absolute disconnect they live with you cannot understand that YES, KC would have killed Caylee before she left her with CA for so many reason that make not a lick of sense to a normal person.

Why did Susan Smith drown her boys when her husband would have taken them in a heartbeat. Because in her twisted mind it would have made her look like a bad parent to just give away her boys. In the NORMAL mind we are like WTH, she thinks killing them makes her look better than just giving them to their dad? But see, she never thought people wouldn't believe her story or would care so much. Sound familiar.

But like you, I am not 100% sure that it was not accidental. The only thing that throws me is the duct tape. Even if it was accidental, I firmly believe that it was from neglect. From her busy talking on the phone while Caylee was asleep in the car in the garage or something. To me it is still KC's fault.

My theory is that she did leave the morning of the 16th as George said but she went to Lee's to wait until George went to work so she could come back to the house. I think this happened often as a cover for "work" I think she either medicated Caylee so she would nap at Lee's and quickly left Lee's to go over to the A's to pick up some of her stuff and when she got back to Lee's Caylee was gone from overdose, OR, she drove back from Lee's and Caylee fell asleep in the car and since she had no plans to stay at the A's, was just picking up some stuff, left Caylee in the car while she backed into the garage, she went into the house, got sidetracked on the computer or phone with JG or AH and when she finally went back out to check on Caylee she was gone from the heat if the car was off, or Carbon monoxide in the garage if she left the car on so that Caylee would have air conditioning.

I think she freaked out and rushed her to the pool to cool her down, but it was too late. She left the gate out in her panic and after she plunged Caylee into the pool, she laid her down beside the pool, thus the dogs hit here. She again quickly moved her over to the more private area of the yard, the playhouse area and layed here there and ran in the house and made a flurry of calls, none of which were answered. She knew she couldn't call 911, CA would never forgive her for causing Caylee's death. She went into automatic coverup mode and put her in the trunk. This I think is where the choloform may come from. The wet pool water and a combination of cleaning products later on.

Sorry this is so long. But that's my theory.

My theory is very close to yours! I'm not sure which way I lean in terms of how she actually died (be it accidental from overdose on meds, heat stroke in the car, drowning.....or if KC did it intentionally), but the rest of your theory is exactly what I think happened.

Lanie
02-12-2009, 03:04 PM
Most of what follows is speculation on my part.

Casey denied she was pregnant for 7 months. When it did come out, it wasn't a somewhat private family matter. The final push seems to be at Cindy's brother's wedding, where Cindy denied to everyone there Casey was pregnant. Due to what I have seen of Cindy's character, this was probably pretty humiliating to her, and she doesn't seem the kind to get over it very quickly. Then more humiliation, with JG's paternity test coming back negative, so now Casey doesn't even know who the father is. Casey was dumping Caylee off on whoever would take her, including Cindy about once a week at her work. Cindy is financially supporting Caylee and Casey. The extended family knew a lot of what was going on, and families talk.
We have statements about some of the things Cindy was saying about and to Casey before she found out Caylee was missing, and it wasn't anywhere near what she is saying now, how Casey was a perfect mother :sick:, etc. It was some pretty ugly stuff. Caylee was a mistake, Casey is a sociopath, etc. I sincerely doubt this kind of talk was rare.
IMO, Casey saw Caylee as a burden. All this from her mother wasn't making things better. IMO, it's possible Cindy nitpicked a lot of what Casey did regarding Caylee as well.
Cindy posted the "Caylee is Missing" blog. Casey maybe responded to that with her "Diary of Days" blog. IMO, the "On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken", refers back to something Cindy said about Caylee, like she would be better of not being born, or something along those lines. I feel Casey killed Caylee out of spite towards Cindy. I don't think it was completely a moment of rage, but more something that had been building for some time. I think Casey had a broad plan of what she was going to do for several months, and was just building up the courage, or waiting for the right time, or maybe even thinking to herself, "One more time, Mom, and see what happens" kind of thing. The right time could have been being close enough with someone to have a place to go (TonE) or the 'one more time' could have been the alleged fight on June 15th.
Lanie

seagull65
02-12-2009, 03:13 PM
I don't believe that anyone other than kc killed caylee either and I was also one that held on to some kind of accident theory until I found out about the duct tape and the heart.....but however vague the possibility is that someone was trying to frame kc and she was and is scared to admit the truth it is still a possibility that should be allowed to be discussed...

Thanks, claudicici, doodlelover and others :blowkiss:
I like your theories, too, and they seem very plausible to me. The things that keep me from committing 100% to theory of KC as murderer, are mainly that others had access to the house and had access to Caylee, and others could have accessed KC's car and items in it, as well as items she had along with her when staying at other people's apartments. The dog hits in the backyard could have to do with disposal of the body which doesn't necessarily mean involvement in the murder, and doesn't necessarily mean KC at all, I wonder if it also could also be from transfer from objects in the car. Even the chemical air analysis from the pontiac trunk did not conclude that it was definitely human decomp in the trunk, much less Caylee's, but that the chemical sample contained some of the chemical profile of human decomp. The one hair seems to prove Caylee's body was in the trunk post mortem, whether placed there by KC or someone else I don't know. If Caylee's body was in KC's trunk it could mean KC was involved in the disposal, does not necessarily mean involvement in the murder. Etc. In many ways it seems most likely that KC did these things, of course, but I can't be sure yet due to these factors. I don't picture any elaborate "framing" of KC, really. I think there would turn out to be a simpler explanation why KC's car was possibly used and why these items were dumped along with Caylee's body, maybe some convenience issue for the perpetrator. Thanks for your openmindedness.
Throughout most of this case, I thought the accident theory was definitely most likely, due to KC's age and being so involved in constant texting, social life, and other distractions. We all know how the computer and so on can suck you in and hours go by before you notice. Something related to heat exposure in the car, accidental drowning in the pool, household accident, falling, accidental ingestion of drugs, etc. Carbon monoxide is a new theory to me from some of you all here and I can certainly see something like that. I have a very hard time imagining tape being placed on the mouth subsequent to an accident, though I guess you never know, especially if mental illness is potentially involved.

seagull65
02-12-2009, 03:24 PM
New to WS...my first post. This is a great site with many, many intelligent people!! I have a ton of reading to do to catch up so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

Re KC drugging Caylee...wouldn't LE be able to test Caylee's hair for drugs?

Hi Victoria, and welcome! If they have enough hair I imagine they could. I'm not sure how many would be needed or whether the hair they had was consumed in other testing.

Nosey Parker
02-12-2009, 03:34 PM
Most of what follows is speculation on my part.

Casey denied she was pregnant for 7 months. When it did come out, it wasn't a somewhat private family matter. The final push seems to be at Cindy's brother's wedding, where Cindy denied to everyone there Casey was pregnant. Due to what I have seen of Cindy's character, this was probably pretty humiliating to her, and she doesn't seem the kind to get over it very quickly. Then more humiliation, with JG's paternity test coming back negative, so now Casey doesn't even know who the father is. Casey was dumping Caylee off on whoever would take her, including Cindy about once a week at her work. Cindy is financially supporting Caylee and Casey. The extended family knew a lot of what was going on, and families talk.
We have statements about some of the things Cindy was saying about and to Casey before she found out Caylee was missing, and it wasn't anywhere near what she is saying now, how Casey was a perfect mother :sick:, etc. It was some pretty ugly stuff. Caylee was a mistake, Casey is a sociopath, etc. I sincerely doubt this kind of talk was rare.
IMO, Casey saw Caylee as a burden. All this from her mother wasn't making things better. IMO, it's possible Cindy nitpicked a lot of what Casey did regarding Caylee as well.
Cindy posted the "Caylee is Missing" blog. Casey maybe responded to that with her "Diary of Days" blog. IMO, the "On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken", refers back to something Cindy said about Caylee, like she would be better of not being born, or something along those lines. I feel Casey killed Caylee out of spite towards Cindy. I don't think it was completely a moment of rage, but more something that had been building for some time. I think Casey had a broad plan of what she was going to do for several months, and was just building up the courage, or waiting for the right time, or maybe even thinking to herself, "One more time, Mom, and see what happens" kind of thing. The right time could have been being close enough with someone to have a place to go (TonE) or the 'one more time' could have been the alleged fight on June 15th.
Lanie

:wave: From the evidence I've seen to date, that's pretty well exactly my theory too, Lanie.

Jolynna
02-12-2009, 03:34 PM
I can buy mentally ill but not insane. I cannot buy "she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her". IMHO.

I do think JB is acting in his own best interest and NOT KC's. Every step of the way this case has escalated in stakes and the DP could return, KC should have plead out as an accident or manslaughter. She *might* get off on a technicality or the sympathetic one juror BUT she is prolonging her agony and fate, risking another break in the case as this plays out in the media.

I am not sure an "accident" is even a possibility. The duct tape, most likely, sealed Casey's fate.

LE and the state knows from the forensics whether or not Caylee was struggling and trying to breathe while the duct tape was over her mouth. If Casey put the duct tape over Casey's hair, she didn't intend for the duct tape to ever come off.

Casey's best bet would have been a deal BEFORE Caylee was found.

I agree that Casey isn't insane. I also agree that it's not a possibility for Casey to have "left" Caylee with someone "else".

As LE told Cindy in the interviews, LE knows where Casey was and who she talked to. They've had her phone records and pings since early in the investigation.

JMO

suepitzl
02-12-2009, 04:12 PM
she could have duct taped caylee b4 the nap at LA's, ( to keep her from screaming, if she woke up) then when she realized she had died and at some point b4 she "bagged her' SHE PUT THE HEART STICKER ON. sICK i KNOW

Steely Dan
02-12-2009, 04:30 PM
Snipped for brevity.


I always leaned strongly toward an accident theory until the body was found with the tape on. To me the tape means that Caylee was assaulted and murdered. It seems very unlikely to me if KC were the perpetrator that she would leave the tape on, or that she would drive around with the body in the trunk and not dispose of it immediately, it (seems like she would only do that if she didn't know at first that Caylee's body was in the trunk, or if the body had been placed there and then moved without her knowledge or involvement. She lived with lots of people and hung out at the club with lots of people, I can't rule out someone accessing her car.) I also can't rule out KC killing Caylee but I see no reason for a premeditated murder, and find even an un-premeditated murder unlikely, maybe if she was really tripping on drugs. Still undecided.


With all of the evidence pointing to KC I'm pretty sure she did it. I used to lean toward the accident explanation too but the duct tape is extremely hard to explain in an accident theory.


I am not sure an "accident" is even a possibility. The duct tape, most likely, sealed Casey's fate.

LE and the state knows from the forensics whether or not Caylee was struggling and trying to breathe while the duct tape was over her mouth. If Casey put the duct tape over Casey's hair, she didn't intend for the duct tape to ever come off.

Casey's best bet would have been a deal BEFORE Caylee was found.

I agree that Casey isn't insane. I also agree that it's not a possibility for Casey to have "left" Caylee with someone "else".

As LE told Cindy in the interviews, LE knows where Casey was and who she talked to. They've had her phone records and pings since early in the investigation.

JMO

IMO, she'd gotten away with so many lies for such a long time that she was convinced she'd get away with this too.

kageykaren
02-12-2009, 05:09 PM
I' noticed that when there is a lull in the KC saga we posters tend to take off sluething hats and start feeling confused with our compassion, forgetting KC behaviors while out shopping with forged checks, partying and keeping up on her love life. I'm a softy and my mind wants to try and understand kC's actions but when faced with her acting out behaviors it takes me back to using Spock Logic and then I'm able to see a sad situation going on in the home resulting in KC acting out in a murderess way.

Doodlelover
02-12-2009, 06:04 PM
I' noticed that when there is a lull in the KC saga we posters tend to take off sluething hats and start feeling confused with our compassion, forgetting KC behaviors while out shopping with forged checks, partying and keeping up on her love life. I'm a softy and my mind wants to try and understand kC's actions but when faced with her acting out behaviors it takes me back to using Spock Logic and then I'm able to see a sad situation going on in the home resulting in KC acting out in a murderess way.

Kageykaren

You are exactly right. Us "normal" people, me included, want to find a reason, an excuse, anything to explain the senseless murder of a child, but when we go back to the facts, the evidence, the videos of KCs behavior before, during and after Caylee was reported missing, we have to face the truth, it most likely was a purposeful murder as hard as that is to face. Sooo sad.

seagull65
02-12-2009, 10:31 PM
I think the defense have to do a lot more than just say somebody might have done it.

They have to propose an alternative and present some sort of support and evidence.

Based on Reasonable doubt, not Irrational suposition

It's the prosecution who have to prove that the defendant committed the crime. :waitasec:

EgyptNug
02-12-2009, 10:32 PM
But like you, I am not 100% sure that it was not accidental. The only thing that throws me is the duct tape. Even if it was accidental, I firmly believe that it was from neglect. From her busy talking on the phone while Caylee was asleep in the car in the garage or something. To me it is still KC's fault.

My theory is that she did leave the morning of the 16th as George said but she went to Lee's to wait until George went to work so she could come back to the house. I think this happened often as a cover for "work" I think she either medicated Caylee so she would nap at Lee's and quickly left Lee's to go over to the A's to pick up some of her stuff and when she got back to Lee's Caylee was gone from overdose, OR, she drove back from Lee's and Caylee fell asleep in the car and since she had no plans to stay at the A's, was just picking up some stuff, left Caylee in the car while she backed into the garage, she went into the house, got sidetracked on the computer or phone with JG or AH and when she finally went back out to check on Caylee she was gone from the heat if the car was off, or Carbon monoxide in the garage if she left the car on so that Caylee would have air conditioning.

I think she freaked out and rushed her to the pool to cool her down, but it was too late. She left the gate out in her panic and after she plunged Caylee into the pool, she laid her down beside the pool, thus the dogs hit here. She again quickly moved her over to the more private area of the yard, the playhouse area and layed here there and ran in the house and made a flurry of calls, none of which were answered. She knew she couldn't call 911, CA would never forgive her for causing Caylee's death. She went into automatic coverup mode and put her in the trunk. This I think is where the choloform may come from. The wet pool water and a combination of cleaning products later on.

Sorry this is so long. But that's my theory.

Thank you for sharing. I think it is important that we hear from those with other theories.

Question: How would your theory explain the computer searches for chloroform done a couple months before?

Tom'sGirl
02-12-2009, 11:15 PM
continue to post and discuss your theories here. leave the attacks and off topic chit chat at the door.

* * * bump * * *

JBean
02-12-2009, 11:17 PM
knock off the bickering in here. You know who you are. if you do not like how someone is addressing you then alert and scroll past. the minute you engage it becomes mutual combat and you are all on notice.
KNOCK IT OFF>

Tinsel
02-12-2009, 11:45 PM
I agree with the Dr. Purpur from Nancy Grace show that the tape shows homicide. I don't believe anyone, even half crazy, would duct tape a child of that age that was intended to live because 1) the child would have told her grandparents, even if she could only use baby talk and tears, and 2) it would have left a terrible rash, and 3) it would not easily come out of the hair. So, I believe it was premeditated murder by a scatter-brained, criminal mind who does not have a normally developed conscience or empathy level.

JBean
02-13-2009, 12:00 AM
Since when would the defense have to propose or prove who did it? It's the prosecution who have to prove that the defendant committed the crime. :waitasec:

This is correct. The entire burden is on the state to prove that the accused is guilty.

Doodlelover
02-13-2009, 12:01 AM
Thank you for sharing. I think it is important that we hear from those with other theories.

Question: How would your theory explain the computer searches for chloroform done a couple months before?

The chloroform search was so short, I think it just might have been Casey wondering what the heck RM picture on myspace the one that says something like win her over with chloroform, that's not exactly what is says but something like that. I think Casey saw it and being not the brightest bulb, googled it to see what chloroform was.

I think it was just a cooincidence. I don't think the concentration of chloroform found in the car was enough to do anything. Mixing pool water and some cleaning chemicals might be enough. Also chloroform is a VERY dangerous substance to be making or messing around with, I just cannot see Casey doing this, it would be too tedious. She may have used Xanax or benadryl or something, I just don't think it was chloroform.

I DO think she toyed around in her fantasy mind about taking her parents out. She googled too many violent words like neck breaking (but I also think this is the band that some of TL friends were in. I think they were called something like neck breakers.

In the end I'm not 100% it was an accident. I'm not against it being in a fit of rage either, in fact with her borderline personality it's totally possible even probable.

This case sure is baffling though.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 12:08 AM
This is correct. The entire burden is on the state to prove that the accused is guilty.
It is a standard defense technique to proffer an alternative senario and perpertrator of the crime, and thus put the seeds of reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. A defense lawyer would only propose a senario which is likely and rational based on the evidence, else it would not effectively sway the thinking of the jury.

Pattymarie
02-13-2009, 12:24 AM
There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever to prove that someone else did it, other than the mother.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 12:27 AM
There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever to prove that someone else did it, other than the mother.
I agree wholeheartedly.

To come to any other conclusion you need to fail to see a lot of the evidence.

JBean
02-13-2009, 12:35 AM
It is a standard defense technique to proffer an alternative senario and perpertrator of the crime, and thus put the seeds of reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. A defense lawyer would only propose a senario which is likely and rational based on the evidence, else it would not effectively sway the thinking of the jury.
But the entire burden is on the prosecution's CIC to prove guilt.

If the SA has proof then the defense will counter it with any information that will lead to reasonable doubt. if there is no proof then the prosecution will not be able to meet the burden.

JBean
02-13-2009, 12:36 AM
we are getting way offtopic hercule.

itsyourworld
02-13-2009, 12:40 AM
It is a standard defense technique to proffer an alternative senario and perpertrator of the crime, and thus put the seeds of reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. A defense lawyer would only propose a senario which is likely and rational based on the evidence, else it would not effectively sway the thinking of the jury.

to propose an alternative perp scenario for a client whose history of lying will in fact be laid out before the jury will not serve them well.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 12:41 AM
we are getting way offtopic hercule.
I agree.

The topic is "What happened to Caylee"

My point is she was killed by Casey! Mountains of evidence support that notion.

Not a hypothetical alternative person that is not even hinted at in any of the evidence.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 12:44 AM
to propose an alternative perp scenario for a client whose history of lying will in fact be laid out before the jury will not serve them well.
That is my belief too.

I was trying to say there is no alterative that is REASONABLE based on the evidence.

A proposed alternative would appear irrational based on the evidence.

JBean
02-13-2009, 12:46 AM
I agree.

The topic is "What happened to Caylee"

My point is she was killed by Casey! Mountains of evidence support that notion.

Not a hypothetical alternative person that is not even hinted at in any of the evidence.
But there is always the possibility until all the evidence is laid out before us. We just have to listen to all theories which is why this thread is here.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 12:52 AM
But there is always the possibility until all the evidence is laid out before us. We just have to listen to all theories which is why this thread is here.
Though we should evaluate theories based on the evidence.
There is not even a remote possible suspect other than Casey. Unless and untill evidence suggests one it is silly to claim one.

It could be an alien abduction with a dastardly spreading of evidence to frame KC, but I will not cosider that unless scorch marks and landing pod dents appear on the Anthony's back lawn.

itsyourworld
02-13-2009, 01:21 AM
Though we should evaluate theories based on the evidence.
There is not even a remote possible suspect other than Casey. Unless and untill evidence suggests one it is silly to claim one.

It could be an alien abduction with a dastardly spreading of evidence to frame KC, but I will not cosider that unless scorch marks and landing pod dents appear on the Anthony's back lawn.

my Belgian friend, i disagree most emphatically! there could indeed be a possibility of another suspect! there just hasn't been another that fits the evidence so well as her.

Dr. Know?
02-13-2009, 01:29 AM
Though we should evaluate theories based on the evidence.
There is not even a remote possible suspect other than Casey. Unless and untill evidence suggests one it is silly to claim one.

It could be an alien abduction with a dastardly spreading of evidence to frame KC, but I will not cosider that unless scorch marks and landing pod dents appear on the Anthony's back lawn.

You are so good & funny too. I like your approach. Thanks HP. I haven't laughed this hard in a while.

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 01:34 AM
my Belgian friend, i disagree most emphatically! there could indeed be a possibility of another suspect! there just hasn't been another that fits the evidence so well as her.
Who? Who can you even wildly imagine?

By all means argue an alternative explanation that is not negated by the evidence, but to just say "there could be someone", and not outline it, is no better than my "alien abduction" or KC's imaginary Nanny, or the fugitive's One Armed Man.

As I have said before:
Proposing an alternative, well explained and argued, and accounting for all the evidence could be a legitimate defence. Sowing the seeds of Reasonable Doubt in the minds of jurors. However just claiming blindly and contrary to evidence that someone else did it, when NO evidence supports it, and a mountain of evidence in fact already points to someone else (KC), is likely to be seen by a jury as Irrational Supposition.

itsyourworld
02-13-2009, 01:42 AM
Who? Who can you even wildly imagine?

By all means argue an alternative explanation that is not negated by the evidence, but to just say "there could be someone", and not outline it, is no better than my "alien abduction" or KC's imaginary Nanny, or the fugitive's One Armed Man.

As I have said before:
Proposing an alternative, well explained and argued, and accounting for all the evidence could be a legitimate defence. Sowing the seeds of Reasonable Doubt in the minds of jurors. However just claiming blindly and contrary to evidence that someone else did it, when NO evidence supports it, and a mountain of evidence in fact already points to someone else (KC), is likely to be seen by a jury as Irrational Supposition.

juries, though charged to be reasoned beings, and to accept logic and operate purely from that as the basis for establishing "beyond a reasonable doubt" can and have often be swayed to see things less clearly than the general public.
proposing a "who" has not served me well in the past. i will just say that the dynamics of the anthony family play such a bigger role for the defense than is given serious consideration by most. i do not think casey will attempt to dance away from having killed Caylee. but it is in the why that everyone is so darn desperate for that will keep the jury tuned to the testimony, and if you can engage the jury in a plausible story (remember, it only has to be reasonable!!)................then...........

Rumpole
02-13-2009, 01:46 AM
juries, though charged to be reasoned beings, and to accept logic and operate purely from that as the basis for establishing "beyond a reasonable doubt" can and have often be swayed to see things less clearly than the general public.
proposing a "who" has not served me well in the past. i will just say that the dynamics of the anthony family play such a bigger role for the defense than is given serious consideration by most. i do not think casey will attempt to dance away from having killed Caylee. but it is in the why that everyone is so darn desperate for that will keep the jury tuned to the testimony, and if you can engage the jury in a plausible story (remember, it only has to be reasonable!!)................then...........
What "story" are you hinting at. Propose one. Just an outline.

I could not explain all the evidence thus far, let alone potentially far more damning evidence?

cyberborg
02-13-2009, 01:57 AM
I am not sure an "accident" is even a possibility. The duct tape, most likely, sealed Casey's fate.

LE and the state knows from the forensics whether or not Caylee was struggling and trying to breathe while the duct tape was over her mouth. If Casey put the duct tape over Casey's hair, she didn't intend for the duct tape to ever come off.

Casey's best bet would have been a deal BEFORE Caylee was found.

I agree that Casey isn't insane. I also agree that it's not a possibility for Casey to have "left" Caylee with someone "else".

As LE told Cindy in the interviews, LE knows where Casey was and who she talked to. They've had her phone records and pings since early in the investigation.

JMO

Bolded by me.

I agree. It removed the incentive from LE as well, the intention being to recover Caylee. Too late!!! The case is solidifying.

cyberborg
02-13-2009, 02:07 AM
I agree with the Dr. Purpur from Nancy Grace show that the tape shows homicide. I don't believe anyone, even half crazy, would duct tape a child of that age that was intended to live because 1) the child would have told her grandparents, even if she could only use baby talk and tears, and 2) it would have left a terrible rash, and 3) it would not easily come out of the hair. So, I believe it was premeditated murder by a scatter-brained, criminal mind who does not have a normally developed conscience or empathy level.

I agree. You do NOT put duct tape on a living child to silence them unless you intend to silence them forever. I did wonder if it was afterwards to stage the murder as a kidnapping but tend towards Dr. Perper's premise. The heart sticker and personal items conflict with staging the scene.

Hard to comprehend. Like others I preferred to believe accident at first and that KC would fess to that. As time passed and details emerged it became more and more clear. I am sure there is worse to come.

JBean
02-13-2009, 02:59 AM
Though we should evaluate theories based on the evidence.
There is not even a remote possible suspect other than Casey. Unless and untill evidence suggests one it is silly to claim one.

It could be an alien abduction with a dastardly spreading of evidence to frame KC, but I will not cosider that unless scorch marks and landing pod dents appear on the Anthony's back lawn.

We may as well just skip the whole trial!

I don't disagree with your supposition that KC did it.But I do disagree with your need to belittle those that don't see it your way.

So now let's stop all this and let others state their theories.