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chicoliving
01-14-2009, 05:53 PM
Continue to post and discuss your theories here. Leave the attacks and off topic chit chat at the door.

JWG
01-14-2009, 05:56 PM
That would leave Caylee dead at most 1 hour 20 min. Possibly not enough time for the dogs to make a hit.
So, Casey goes to Caylee, and she is dead. What would she do with her then? Maybe put her directly in the trunk? It's possible she brought her into the house, but the dogs didn't hit there. However, it was a month later when the dogs were there.
We would be at app. 3:05 at earliest. That gives her 30 minutes to get over it, call AL at 3:35, and be driving away from the house by 4:18.
I just don't know. Physically, it would be possible to do this in the time available, but wow.
Lanie

I am not sure I am following you here Lanie when you say she may not have been dead long enough for the dogs to make a hit.

If you are talking about the backyard, I believe she was carried back there on the 18th with the intent of being buried.

Devon
01-14-2009, 06:11 PM
I am not sure I am following you here Lanie when you say she may not have been dead long enough for the dogs to make a hit.

If you are talking about the backyard, I believe she was carried back there on the 18th with the intent of being buried.

What do you make of the alleged 2 hits in the backyard then JWG? Any thoughts on whether these both would have occurred on the same day or not?

2goldfish
01-14-2009, 06:12 PM
I am not sure I am following you here Lanie when you say she may not have been dead long enough for the dogs to make a hit.

If you are talking about the backyard, I believe she was carried back there on the 18th with the intent of being buried.


I believe some dogs can hit at one hour's decomp. could depend on body actually.

I think 1.5 hours' death is enough for a dog to hit.

JWG
01-14-2009, 06:38 PM
I will throw another possibility out there that probably has been mentioned already - none of my material is ever all that original, after all.

Assembling what I have read here recently, if KC did drive around with Caylee until she fell asleep at nap time and went home, it is possible she left a sleeping Caylee in the car. Suppose she came back to the home around 1:45, started taking some stuff out of the car and carrying them into the house, and calls Amy at the same time. The call with Amy lasts 36 minutes. Sometime during that period KC gets on the computer. Perhaps Amy said "OMG girl, you have to see what so-and-so just wrote on their Facebook" and KC rushed in to fire up the computer and see what it was.

Long conversation, lots of computer activity - major distraction.

KC remains distracted through the Jesse conversation. Then George calls and and during the brief conversation mentions Caylee's name, and suddenly KC remembers leaving Caylee in the car.

Just a thought.

Temperature at 1:45 PM was 92F. Went up to 94F by 2:30. 90F at 2:55.

According to this website (http://ggweather.com/heat/), lethal internal temperature can be reached in 10 minutes when the ambient air temperature is 90F. "Cracking" the windows makes little difference.

Note also that 51% of the deaths studied were due to the caregiver forgetting they left the child in the car.

JWG
01-14-2009, 06:43 PM
What do you make of the alleged 2 hits in the backyard then JWG? Any thoughts on whether these both would have occurred on the same day or not?

I believe they both hit on the 18th. I think KC probably took Caylee to one spot, tried to dig, decided the soil was too tough, then took her to another spot and found the same thing.

Even if Caylee drowned in the pool and KC placed her on the ground right after retrieving her, I don't think that would have been enough to cause a hit a month later.

BondJamesBond
01-14-2009, 07:47 PM
Temperature at 1:45 PM was 92F. Went up to 94F by 2:30. 90F at 2:55.

According to this website (http://ggweather.com/heat/), lethal internal temperature can be reached in 10 minutes when the ambient air temperature is 90F. "Cracking" the windows makes little difference.

Note also that 51% of the deaths studied were due to the caregiver forgetting they left the child in the car.

Nothing to back it up, but sometimes...just to give myself a painless, non-horrific scenario, I try to convince myself that Casey put the car in the garage to conceal it while she was @ home (since she wasn't supposed to be there) and may have just put Caylee back in her seat to leave...started the car to cool it down w/ A/C or just ran back into the house to get some things...and Caylee sucumbed to the carbon monoxide. Owing to her smaller body scale Casey may've noticed the fumes, but, it does little more than maybe make her dizzy and she shrugs it off and just figures Caylee fell asleep again and, hey...that's just a bonus in Casey's eyes...why ruin a good thing and try to wake her now?!?!?

Flurry of calls all related to "we won't be home" or "ZFG can't sit tonight and I gotta work" or something similar....and...late Monday PM narcissistic-Casey finally decides Caylee's slept too long...and :eek: Casey's all-'bout me just might fit this otherwise-ridiculous line of thinking/action.

...and then I think....naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh. :bang:

reeseeva
01-14-2009, 10:43 PM
Nothing to back it up, but sometimes...just to give myself a painless, non-horrific scenario, I try to convince myself that Casey put the car in the garage to conceal it while she was @ home (since she wasn't supposed to be there) and may have just put Caylee back in her seat to leave...started the car to cool it down w/ A/C or just ran back into the house to get some things...and Caylee sucumbed to the carbon monoxide. Owing to her smaller body scale Casey may've noticed the fumes, but, it does little more than maybe make her dizzy and she shrugs it off and just figures Caylee fell asleep again and, hey...that's just a bonus in Casey's eyes...why ruin a good thing and try to wake her now?!?!?

Flurry of calls all related to "we won't be home" or "ZFG can't sit tonight and I gotta work" or something similar....and...late Monday PM narcissistic-Casey finally decides Caylee's slept too long...and :eek: Casey's all-'bout me just might fit this otherwise-ridiculous line of thinking/action.

BondJamesBond, I posted a similar theory about carbon monoxide about a week ago with no replies. Basing it on an almost all-nighter for KC on her phone, sleep-deprived, etc., that she leaves Caylee in the car, while in the house & loses track of time. If that took place, she may have grabbed her & ran to the pool to cool her down/revive her so to speak. The ladder was left up, pool box containing shock & pool chemicals, had been moved & the gate was open. How would carbon monoxide show up in tests, or combined with chlorine from the pool? Just a thought!

...

JWG
01-14-2009, 10:46 PM
I am trying to triangulate a bit on when KC returned home on the 16th and fit it into the possibility that Caylee died in the car.

GA says he last saw Caylee around 12:50 PM when she and KC left for "work". Cell pings indicate they stayed in the vicinity. Desktop and laptop computer activity cease during this period of time, supporting the notion KC is not at the Anthony home.

Very light computer activity occurs between 1 and 2 PM on the laptop. Then very heavy computer activity occurs between 2 and 3 PM on the desktop. The activity seems to be indicative of KC being on the two computers and not GA. This further implies KC returned to the home just before 2 PM and had enough time to do a small amount of work on the laptop after returning, and later hitting the desktop. GA was not around, so he likely had left for work.

When did GA start work? I have heard 2 PM, and I have heard 3 PM. Travel time for GA was about 20 minutes, so unless he was doing errands before work, he would not be leaving until about half an hour before work. I think the computer evidence supports GA leaving the home before 2 PM, probably because his job started then on that day.

KC calls Amy at 1:45 and speaks with her until 2:21. Sometime between 1:45 and 2 PM, KC is back at her parents. Where is Caylee?

Now we can flesh this out with some speculation:



Caylee falls asleep soon after leaving the A's because it is nap time. KC occupies herself with Tony texting somewhere near the A's, maybe Lee's...maybe the elementary school.



KC calls Amy at 1:45, then while on the phone, heads back to the A's.



KC and a sleeping Caylee arrive at the A's just before 2. KC grabs a few items from the car but is otherwise deep into her conversation with Amy. She sees a sleeping Caylee and notes to herself that she needs to come back out immediately and get Caylee and take her to bed.



While inside Amy says something that prompts KC to flip open the laptop. Next she starts up the desktop. She and Amy talk and surf real time until 2:20 PM.



KC is sucked into the computer by now and uses it heavily until JG calls a half hour later at 2:53 PM.



KC and JG converse intently until KC gets a very rare call from GA at 3:04 PM. KC takes the call. Sometime during the conversation GA says "Caylee", and a little light bulb goes off in KC's head. "Caylee ..."



KC gets off the phone with her dad as she rushes out to the car...

Balthazar
01-14-2009, 10:57 PM
I wonder if Casey could have been hiding out at the abandoned Gonzalez house, waiting for her dad to leave for work? Could this be why the PI's were searching there?

cuppy199
01-15-2009, 12:21 AM
Note also that 51% of the deaths studied were due to the caregiver forgetting they left the child in the car.

51 percent of 361 hyperthermia deaths from 1998 to 2007 resulted because a caregiver forgot a child, Kids and Cars reports.According to the American Anthropological Association, more than 200 women kill their children in the United States each year. Three to five children a day are killed by their parents. Homicide is one of the leading causes of death of children under age four.

Pink Panther
01-15-2009, 12:23 AM
I wonder if Casey could have been hiding out at the abandoned Gonzalez house, waiting for her dad to leave for work? Could this be why the PI's were searching there?

It's all possible but it seems strange that if she was using this home as a hide-out, that no one would have noticed??? None of the neighbors would have seen her come and go???

Paintr
01-15-2009, 12:35 AM
BondJamesBond, I posted a similar theory about carbon monoxide about a week ago with no replies. Basing it on an almost all-nighter for KC on her phone, sleep-deprived, etc., that she leaves Caylee in the car, while in the house & loses track of time. If that took place, she may have grabbed her & ran to the pool to cool her down/revive her so to speak. The ladder was left up, pool box containing shock & pool chemicals, had been moved & the gate was open. How would carbon monoxide show up in tests, or combined with chlorine from the pool? Just a thought!

...

Doesn't CM poisioning make the skin cherry red? Seeing the hightened flush on Caylee, KC could have assumed it was the heat and tried the pool to cool her off. Just trying to help the story along. Don't think it really happened this way though.

sweetwater
01-15-2009, 01:52 AM
It's all possible but it seems strange that if she was using this home as a hide-out, that no one would have noticed??? None of the neighbors would have seen her come and go???

Right.
I think somebody stashed something here, who and why are the mystery, but it is entirely implausible for Casey to have been going in and out of this house, with or without Caylee. This house doesn't look like it's been "vacant" for very long.
I'm not sure about the owners going to Puerto Rico story, either. It looks like a meth lab house. And the convoluted connection to Universal is interesting, too.
Errrgg.
The silence from Le on this house is intriguing, don't you think?

2goldfish
01-15-2009, 09:14 AM
Doesn't CM poisioning make the skin cherry red? Seeing the hightened flush on Caylee, KC could have assumed it was the heat and tried the pool to cool her off. Just trying to help the story along. Don't think it really happened this way though.

I am intrigued by these recent theories about napping in the car and passing that way. I could see this happening, leaving her to nap in the car and redness of the face (from heat is more likely IMO) causing a panic and a dunk into the pool before realising the awful truth.

but again and again and again Casey ruins all the theories with not calling 911 and her cold horrible behaviour afterwards. I go with the flow mentally in accident scenarios til that first phone call from jail pops into my head.

you know, if she had changed her behaviour in any way that friends or family noticed, even one crying spell one time, I would keep thinking this had to be an accident. yes there were the nightmares, late in june, and the fact that they were late in june makes me think they were about the decomposition and not grief.

The facts that I know as of this date over and over point to a deliberate death no matter how much I still naively wish it to have been an accident.

Paintr
01-15-2009, 09:22 AM
I am intrigued by these recent theories about napping in the car and passing that way. I could see this happening, leaving her to nap in the car and redness of the face (from heat is more likely IMO) causing a panic and a dunk into the pool before realising the awful truth.

but again and again and again Casey ruins all the theories with not calling 911 and her cold horrible behaviour afterwards. I go with the flow mentally in accident scenarios til that first phone call from jail pops into my head.

you know, if she had changed her behaviour in any way that friends or family noticed, even one crying spell one time, I would keep thinking this had to be an accident. yes there were the nightmares, late in june, and the fact that they were late in june makes me think they were about the decomposition and not grief.

The facts that I know as of this date over and over point to a deliberate death no matter how much I still naively wish it to have been an accident.

I agree, goldfish, and for the same reasons. Every now and then I try to imagine an alternate story, but I keep coming back to a deliberate act. I also think premeditated most of the time.

Paintr
01-15-2009, 09:23 AM
I am intrigued by these recent theories about napping in the car and passing that way. I could see this happening, leaving her to nap in the car and redness of the face (from heat is more likely IMO) causing a panic and a dunk into the pool before realising the awful truth.

but again and again and again Casey ruins all the theories with not calling 911 and her cold horrible behaviour afterwards. I go with the flow mentally in accident scenarios til that first phone call from jail pops into my head.

you know, if she had changed her behaviour in any way that friends or family noticed, even one crying spell one time, I would keep thinking this had to be an accident. yes there were the nightmares, late in june, and the fact that they were late in june makes me think they were about the decomposition and not grief.

The facts that I know as of this date over and over point to a deliberate death no matter how much I still naively wish it to have been an accident.

I agree, goldfish, and for the same reasons. Every now and then I try to imagine an alternate story, but I keep coming back to a deliberate act. I also think premeditated most of the time.

Mamabear1963
01-15-2009, 09:57 AM
As a mom who can get distracted on the computer, see addiction thread :angel:, if something happened to one of my dc...I would call 911 immediately.

I don't buy the accident theories...UNLESS...KC is soooo into herself she didn't want the death to spoil her life.

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 10:05 AM
I am trying to triangulate a bit on when KC returned home on the 16th and fit it into the possibility that Caylee died in the car.

GA says he last saw Caylee around 12:50 PM when she and KC left for "work". Cell pings indicate they stayed in the vicinity. Desktop and laptop computer activity cease during this period of time, supporting the notion KC is not at the Anthony home.

Very light computer activity occurs between 1 and 2 PM on the laptop. Then very heavy computer activity occurs between 2 and 3 PM on the desktop. The activity seems to be indicative of KC being on the two computers and not GA. This further implies KC returned to the home just before 2 PM and had enough time to do a small amount of work on the laptop after returning, and later hitting the desktop. GA was not around, so he likely had left for work.

When did GA start work? I have heard 2 PM, and I have heard 3 PM. Travel time for GA was about 20 minutes, so unless he was doing errands before work, he would not be leaving until about half an hour before work. I think the computer evidence supports GA leaving the home before 2 PM, probably because his job started then on that day.

KC calls Amy at 1:45 and speaks with her until 2:21. Sometime between 1:45 and 2 PM, KC is back at her parents. Where is Caylee?

Now we can flesh this out with some speculation:



Caylee falls asleep soon after leaving the A's because it is nap time. KC occupies herself with Tony texting somewhere near the A's, maybe Lee's...maybe the elementary school.



KC calls Amy at 1:45, then while on the phone, heads back to the A's.



KC and a sleeping Caylee arrive at the A's just before 2. KC grabs a few items from the car but is otherwise deep into her conversation with Amy. She sees a sleeping Caylee and notes to herself that she needs to come back out immediately and get Caylee and take her to bed.



While inside Amy says something that prompts KC to flip open the laptop. Next she starts up the desktop. She and Amy talk and surf real time until 2:20 PM.



KC is sucked into the computer by now and uses it heavily until JG calls a half hour later at 2:53 PM.



KC and JG converse intently until KC gets a very rare call from GA at 3:04 PM. KC takes the call. Sometime during the conversation GA says "Caylee", and a little light bulb goes off in KC's head. "Caylee ..."



KC gets off the phone with her dad as she rushes out to the car...
This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

The cover-up now begins. Caylee is beyond anyone's help at this point & only thru some momentary neglect on KC's part did this occur. She exonerates herself. This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

As crazy as this may sound to some people, (including myself) I see young people today, as not viewing death the way previous generations do. Witnessing KC's Facebook & MySpace, paints a fatalistic portrait of her views on life & death. I do not condone, in any way shape or manner, her actions on how she disposed of her daughter, I'm just trying to step outside & look at why or how this may have happened!

eddeva
01-15-2009, 10:07 AM
As a mom who can get distracted on the computer, see addiction thread :angel:, if something happened to one of my dc...I would call 911 immediately.

I don't buy the accident theories...UNLESS...KC is soooo into herself she didn't want the death to spoil her life.

yeah - either way you end up dealing w/ a sociopath. i believe that's what casey is and while this case is littered w/ coinky-dinks i just don't think she's 'lucky' enough to have a happy turn of chance remove caylee from her life.

(please note that i do not think anything here is 'lucky' or 'happy'. i'm coming at it from casey's point of view)

Mamabear1963
01-15-2009, 10:11 AM
respectfully snipped

As crazy as this may sound to some people, (including myself) I see young people today, as not viewing death the way previous generations do. Witnessing KC's Facebook & MySpace, paints a fatalistic portrait of her views on life & death. I do not condone, in any way shape or manner, her actions on how she disposed of her daughter, I'm just trying to step outside & look at why or how this may have happened!

This is true, our culture has become way to desensitized to death/dying and the reality of it all.

eddeva
01-15-2009, 10:14 AM
This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

*respectfully snipped
i also think that a great part of casey 'dropping out of sight' and filling her world w/ new people. was through necessity. all her old friends would have noticed immediately the very conspicuous absence of caylee, but the new ones didn't know how casey chose to raise her daughter and would be far more likely to buy the nanny nonsense.

Indigo
01-15-2009, 10:18 AM
I am trying to triangulate a bit on when KC returned home on the 16th and fit it into the possibility that Caylee died in the car.

GA says he last saw Caylee around 12:50 PM when she and KC left for "work". Cell pings indicate they stayed in the vicinity. Desktop and laptop computer activity cease during this period of time, supporting the notion KC is not at the Anthony home.

Very light computer activity occurs between 1 and 2 PM on the laptop. Then very heavy computer activity occurs between 2 and 3 PM on the desktop. The activity seems to be indicative of KC being on the two computers and not GA. This further implies KC returned to the home just before 2 PM and had enough time to do a small amount of work on the laptop after returning, and later hitting the desktop. GA was not around, so he likely had left for work.

When did GA start work? I have heard 2 PM, and I have heard 3 PM. Travel time for GA was about 20 minutes, so unless he was doing errands before work, he would not be leaving until about half an hour before work. I think the computer evidence supports GA leaving the home before 2 PM, probably because his job started then on that day.

KC calls Amy at 1:45 and speaks with her until 2:21. Sometime between 1:45 and 2 PM, KC is back at her parents. Where is Caylee?

Now we can flesh this out with some speculation:



Caylee falls asleep soon after leaving the A's because it is nap time. KC occupies herself with Tony texting somewhere near the A's, maybe Lee's...maybe the elementary school.


KC calls Amy at 1:45, then while on the phone, heads back to the A's.


KC and a sleeping Caylee arrive at the A's just before 2. KC grabs a few items from the car but is otherwise deep into her conversation with Amy. She sees a sleeping Caylee and notes to herself that she needs to come back out immediately and get Caylee and take her to bed.


While inside Amy says something that prompts KC to flip open the laptop. Next she starts up the desktop. She and Amy talk and surf real time until 2:20 PM.


KC is sucked into the computer by now and uses it heavily until JG calls a half hour later at 2:53 PM.


KC and JG converse intently until KC gets a very rare call from GA at 3:04 PM. KC takes the call. Sometime during the conversation GA says "Caylee", and a little light bulb goes off in KC's head. "Caylee ..."


KC gets off the phone with her dad as she rushes out to the car...


Great attention to detail, JWG. I always enjoy reading your theories! With this theory, there are two things I wonder: how would this account for the high levels of chloroform in the trunk? Also, how would this fit in with Jesse's account of hearing Caylee in the background?

Balthazar
01-15-2009, 10:23 AM
It's all possible but it seems strange that if she was using this home as a hide-out, that no one would have noticed??? None of the neighbors would have seen her come and go???

None of the neighbors saw her coming and going from the Anthony house either in all the time since she had been fired from Universal, with the exception of the day she backed her car into the Anthony garage.

JWG
01-15-2009, 10:32 AM
Great attention to detail, JWG. I always enjoy reading your theories! With this theory, there are two things I wonder: how would this account for the high levels of chloroform in the trunk? Also, how would this fit in with Jesse's account of hearing Caylee in the background?

Someone mentioned on Part 3 of the thread, near the end, that KC could have been viewing the father's day video of Caylee or some other video of Caylee on the computer while speaking with Jesse. Certainly plausible, but we don't have enough information from the computer forensics to determine if this occurred. I believe media players do save a history, so the information might be there.

Another possibility is that Jesse was mistaken, as he was in recounting the conversation he had with KC on the 24th. It was not unusual for him to hear Caylee in the background, but it did not always happen. Given it had been some time since he had seen Caylee, I believe there is room for poor recall here on his part.

As for the chloroform, it is still possible that a combination of cleaners (specifically dry-cleaning solution) and / or pesticides or fumigants (to kill flies and maggots) could have left behind the chloroform signature. Chemical analysis of the items seized from the parental home should determine whether or not this is a possibility. Given the seizure took place 5 months after the fact, there is room for doubt, meaning there could be an argument made that the cleaners/pesticides were used up prior to December and the containers long since discarded.

SleuthyMama
01-15-2009, 10:51 AM
And the convoluted connection to Universal is interesting, too.

Would somebody be kind enough to let me know what this convoluted connection is? Or at least point me in the direction so I can find it? TIA.

Lisa-Rachelle
01-15-2009, 10:54 AM
Casey kept a container of homemade chloroform in her trunk. A place where she knew her parents couldn't ust "stumble" on it. Safekeeping.

After the big fight with CA, Casey was infuriated. Her vacation plans were ruined, and maybe CA even gave her a powerful ultimatum (i.e., get a real job, or I'm taking Caylee and you get the hell out!). She left with Caylee. Maybe Caylee started throwing a fit, or was just getting on her nerves more than usual (remember, she was already tense from the fight with CA). So she knocks Caylee out with chloroform, and puts her in the trunk. Not wanting her to wake up, she soaks a rag in chloroform and leaves it in the trunk, hoping it will keep her "under". Tape over her mouth to prevent her from screaming if she woke up before Casey got back.
The heavy amounts of Chloroform cause Caylee to vomit while unconcious. The tape over her mouth causes her to aspirate the vomit. She essentially "drowns" in it. (I'd venture to guess the mystery stain in the trunk was vomit, that possibly came out of her nose *excuse my bluntness*).

Casey makes the discovery. Not sure what her emotional reaction would have been, but she starts trying to come up with a plan.
Next day, drives to her parents house when she knows they're both gone. Pulls the car into the garage. Transfers Caylee's body from the trunk to the backyard to "bag it". Uses trash bags from the home. Starts thinking about burrying her in the backyard. Borrows shovel from neighbors. Then....second guesses her plan. Too easy. Too obvious. Now what? Put's Caylee's body back in the trunk, bagged. As she's getting back in, she sees random items of Caylee's in the backseat. Gathers them all up, sticks them in the bag also. Sortof the out of sight, out of mind idea.

Leaves her parents home, not knowing where to go. She turns off Hopespring and onto Suburban...it's quiet out. Not much traffic. She looks to her right and sees the woods where she and friends used to hide and hang out. It's filled with water. She pulls over. Maybe she idles there for a couple minutes...not sure what to do. Then she makes a split second decision....get rid of this body. No time like the present. She gets out and opens the trunk, then when the coast is clear, she carrys the bag down the small hill and puts it in the water. Maybe even rips a small hole in it so water will flow in, making it sink. After the bag is out of sight sufficently, she climbs back into the car....and leaves.



Thats my theory. It's not elaborate, but to me, it makes sense given what we know about Casey and how she thinks (in the moment, her own form of logic in play at all times).
As for the discovery of the body, I honestly think Casey told Lee where she could be found, and he, in turn, told the PI's. Probably told them, "look, this is win win. I can't be arrested for this, and if I suddenly show up and know where the body is, it will look like I helped. If you find her, it looks more innocent, and theres a reward, too" (I believe the reward was still on the table in early November).
Perhaps Casey told Lee in a letter, in code. Remember the account from neighbors that kids used to bury their dead pets in the woods? Well,Casey and Lee being so close in age, probably shared some friends. Knew all the kids in the neighborhood. Maybe at some point in their young lives, a friends cherished dog Spot (just for the sake of argument) died, and the group burried him in the woods. Maybe in a letter, Casey says...."You know who I was thinking about today? Spot. I sure would love to see him again." If they hadnt talked about the dog since childhood, it might have instantly raised a flag for the brother.

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 11:40 AM
There is something about Casey’s actions afterwards that have been bugging me. If this was a planned killing, wouldn’t it be likely that Casey would have had a plan on what she was going to do once she killed Caylee? To me, her actions afterwards tend to lean toward this being an accident. Here’s why:

If she had planned to kill Caylee, I would think that she would have had a better plan afterwards, like leaving the state (perhaps saying that she got a new job, etc), or calling 911 a couple of days later to report her missing like some other psycho moms have done. I think she would have thought of something better than the nanny story.

She had to know that she would eventually be caught or have to answer to everyone as to where Caylee was. I can’t imagine that she thought that this would go on forever and that she would be able to keep Caylee away from everyone. I know this is probably not the way it happened, but I’m just trying to think of all the different scenarios…

What if…

During the day Casey and Caylee were in the pool (would explain why the ladder was up) and after being in the pool for awhile, Caylee takes a nap (perhaps out of site from where Casey is on the computer). At that time Casey goes online and starts chatting with friends. While on the computer, Caylee wakes up and wanders outside since that was where she last saw her mom. After awhile, Casey checks in on Caylee and sees that she’s not there so she starts looking around the house. After searching the house, she starts to panic and without thinking calls her parents because she can’t find Caylee. No one answers. She continues to look and finds her dead in the pool. Instead of doing the right thing and calling 911, she sees that Caylee is dead and quickly comes to the realization that she is at fault and that her Mom will blame her. So instead of facing the truth (which we know is easy for her) she realizes that she has to come up with something. She is no longer panicking or upset as in her mind she has removed herself from the situation and goes into her manipulating mode.

She gets a bag and lays a wet Caylee on top of it in the trunk (could explain the trace amount of chloroform in the trunk) . She then goes back into the house and grabs all her stuff and takes off. She becomes cold to the facts and ignores what has happened until the smell. At some point she takes Caylee out of the trunk and tries to bury her in the backyard and eventually moves her. She gets rid of the car and places it by a dumpster thinking that she can tell people the smell is from the garbage. Knowing that she will probably get caught, she comes up with the nanny story and decides to do everything she wants while she still can.


If you think about it, her old friends have said that she acted differently by partying, etc. Could it be that Casey decides to live it up as she knew it was only a matter of time that she’d be caught? Also, when she stole the checks from Amy, she had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name of the checks. How was she planning to explain that? She knew if she got caught for stealing the checks she would no longer be friends with all of them. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter. I think that’s why she partied like crazy, dated, bought things and got a tattoo. I think she knew she was going to have to own up to everything sooner or later so in the meantime she was going to have fun. It would also explain her comment to Lee about how this (calling the cops) should have been done long ago. If you think about it, it doesnt sound like she was at all nervous or shocked that the police were being called. I think she expected this all along (to get arrested) but used the Nanny story to create reasonable doubt (not that it did).

Sick… yes.

Possible? I don’t know.
:waitasec:

BondJamesBond
01-15-2009, 12:15 PM
This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

The cover-up now begins. Caylee is beyond anyone's help at this point & only thru some momentary neglect on KC's part did this occur. She exonerates herself. This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

*snipped*
...to add...there's more to pile onto how 6/15-16 was the intersection of several factors. Without going into detail and restarting the debate (pretty please) that raged early in the case 'bout why Cindy, Casey, George, & Lee initially used the date of 6/9 vs. 6/15. The week of 6/9 was a transition week for Casey. She went from Ricardo to Tony that week and it was a rocky transition. IMHO, Tony was doubting Casey..or at least pushing her buttons...that week and she was trying to convince him he was "the one". Ricardo was trying to keep Casey 'round (see texts w/ Amy), but, Casey was determined to start anew w/ a different class of guy (also her texts w/ Amy). Casey and Caylee were out of Ricardo's as of 6/10, but, not @ G&C's until 6/13 and/or 14...which made 6/9 stick in Cindy, et.al.'s memory as the date things changed re: seeing Caylee every night. IIRC, Casey had told G&C a story 'bout bein' somewhere week of 6/9 which is why Caylee bein' out (@ Ricardo's) that night was 'ok'...but, when she had to leave Ricardo's due to the break w/ him and take-up w/ Tony...she had to come up w/ something for Caylee since she had a good alibi going w/ G&C...she couldn't abort it now...she'd worked so hard to put it in place! Perhaps Casey was having some few-hour-long hook-ups w/ Tony 6/10-6/13...so the 'new' form of Caylee-care started ~6/10. It may not have been working so well, hence, the walk w/ Kristina C. 6/12 at a time that was certainly at/near Caylee's bedtime may have been to test the waters 'bout keepin' Caylee overnight.

What went wrong 6/16 may have simply been some change in the method Casey was using 6/10-6/13+/-. Perhaps 6/10-6/13 Caylee was close enough (e.g. the Pontiac in Sutton Place Apt. parking lot) that Casey would run out to check on her saying she was gonna call Cindy (recall Tony said she'd step outside), take out the trash (Fusian receipt from May in trashbag in trunk) and this allowed shorter durations and more frequent monitoring. Casey had to take Caylee to a location near G&C's (Lee's? Brackenwood?) for the majority of the time these nights owing to the pings there. Stats analysis of pings this period support that they were from different nearby location to G&C's. If the 6/16 Blockbuster plans w/o G&C-care just meant a few more hours...maybe Casey thought she'd perfected the sedation process and just upped the dosage a bit. Change in Dosage? Change in Rx? Combination of both?

As I've posted before...I try to keep an open mind and I've envisioned everything from a well-planned murder of Cindy gone awry...to...total accident. I just haven't seen enough evidence to conclude w/ great certainty one OVER the other. There are great points to make both sides.

Changing the Rx (dosage and/or type and/or method of admin.) 6/16 seems to kinda go down the middle for me...kinda hybrid...and I think I'll park it here 'till I see something more concrete to sway one way or t'other.

ETA: There are indications Ricardo may have intro'd Casey to chloroform. LE's searches of his computer should be telling. Casey may've even sourced the chloroform by taking some from Ricardo's stash. Amy stating that Caylee could sleep through anything, and the Amy waking up in diff. pants may all be signs chloroform (and/or other Rx handy) was already in-use and Casey simply continued what might've originally started in order to give Casey & Ricardo some uninterrupted intimate privacy...only this time, Tony was the prize, and Caylee was not as easily monitored.

Devon
01-15-2009, 12:24 PM
There is something about Casey’s actions afterwards that have been bugging me. If this was a planned killing, wouldn’t it be likely that Casey would have had a plan on what she was going to do once she killed Caylee? To me, her actions afterwards tend to lean toward this being an accident. Here’s why:

If she had planned to kill Caylee, I would think that she would have had a plan to leave the state (perhaps saying that she got a new job, etc), or she would have called 911 a couple of days later to report her missing like some other psycho moms have done. She would have had a better plan that the nanny story.

She had to know that she would eventually be caught or have to answer to everyone as to where Caylee was. I can’t imagine that she thought that this would go on forever and that she would be able to keep Caylee away from everyone. I know this is probably not the way it happened, but I’m just trying to think of all the different scenarios…

What if…

During the day Casey and Caylee were in the pool (would explain why the ladder was up) and after being in the pool for awhile, Caylee takes a nap (perhaps out of site from where Casey is on the computer). At that time Casey goes online and starts chatting with friends. While on the computer, Caylee wakes up and wanders outside since that was where she last saw her mom. After awhile, Casey checks in on Caylee and sees that she’s not there so she starts looking around the house. After searching the house, she starts to panic and without thinking calls her parents because she can’t find Caylee. No one answers. She continues to look and finds her dead in the pool. Instead of doing the right thing and calling 911, she sees that Caylee is dead and quickly comes to the realization that she is at fault and that her Mom will blame her. So instead of facing the truth (which we know is easy for her) she realizes that she has to come up with something. She is no longer panicking or upset as in her mind she has removed herself from the situation and goes into her manipulating mode.

She gets a bag and lays a wet Caylee on top of it in the trunk (could explain the trace amount of chloroform in the trunk) . She then goes back into the house and grabs all her stuff and takes off. She becomes cold to the facts and ignores what has happened until the smell. At some point she takes Caylee out of the trunk and tries to bury her in the backyard and eventually moves her. She gets rid of the car and places by a dumpster thinking that people will think the smell is from the garbage. Knowing that she will probably get caught, she comes up with the nanny story and decides to do everything she wants while she still can.


If you think about it, her old friends have said that she acted differently by partying, etc. Could it be that Casey decides to live it up as she knew it was only a matter of time that she’d be caught? Also, when she stole the checks from Amy, she had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name of the checks. How was she planning to explain that? She knew if she got caught for stealing the checks she would no longer be friends with all of them. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter. I think that’s why she partied like crazy, dated, bought things and got a tattoo. I think she knew she was going to have to own up to everything sooner or later so in the meantime she was going to have fun. It would also explain her comment to Lee about how this (calling the cops) should have been done long ago. If you think about it, it doesnt sound like she was at all nervous or shocked that the people were being called. I think she expected this all along.

Sick… yes.

Possible? I don’t know.
:waitasec:

I have had very similar thoughts myself, and have said many times that I think her behaviour afterwards could well have been just a sort of manic final fling because she knew the jig would be up at some point. I agree with you that it appears she had NO plan for explaining a 'disappeared' Caylee, at least not until her mother found her and started demanding answers. If she already had the 'kidnapping' plot worked out, then as you say, why didn't she 'raise the alarm' within a few days of Caylee's death, as soon as she had disposed of the body. She also obviously had no plan for the disposal either, as it appears she drove around with a dead Caylee in the car for at least a few days.

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 12:37 PM
There is something about Casey’s actions afterwards that have been bugging me. If this was a planned killing, wouldn’t it be likely that Casey would have had a plan on what she was going to do once she killed Caylee? To me, her actions afterwards tend to lean toward this being an accident. Here’s why:

If she had planned to kill Caylee, I would think that she would have had a better plan afterwards, like leaving the state (perhaps saying that she got a new job, etc), or calling 911 a couple of days later to report her missing like some other psycho moms have done. I think she would have thought of something better than the nanny story.

She had to know that she would eventually be caught or have to answer to everyone as to where Caylee was. I can’t imagine that she thought that this would go on forever and that she would be able to keep Caylee away from everyone. I know this is probably not the way it happened, but I’m just trying to think of all the different scenarios…

What if…

During the day Casey and Caylee were in the pool (would explain why the ladder was up) and after being in the pool for awhile, Caylee takes a nap (perhaps out of site from where Casey is on the computer). At that time Casey goes online and starts chatting with friends. While on the computer, Caylee wakes up and wanders outside since that was where she last saw her mom. After awhile, Casey checks in on Caylee and sees that she’s not there so she starts looking around the house. After searching the house, she starts to panic and without thinking calls her parents because she can’t find Caylee. No one answers. She continues to look and finds her dead in the pool. Instead of doing the right thing and calling 911, she sees that Caylee is dead and quickly comes to the realization that she is at fault and that her Mom will blame her. So instead of facing the truth (which we know is easy for her) she realizes that she has to come up with something. She is no longer panicking or upset as in her mind she has removed herself from the situation and goes into her manipulating mode.

She gets a bag and lays a wet Caylee on top of it in the trunk (could explain the trace amount of chloroform in the trunk) . She then goes back into the house and grabs all her stuff and takes off. She becomes cold to the facts and ignores what has happened until the smell. At some point she takes Caylee out of the trunk and tries to bury her in the backyard and eventually moves her. She gets rid of the car and places it by a dumpster thinking that she can tell people the smell is from the garbage. Knowing that she will probably get caught, she comes up with the nanny story and decides to do everything she wants while she still can.


If you think about it, her old friends have said that she acted differently by partying, etc. Could it be that Casey decides to live it up as she knew it was only a matter of time that she’d be caught? Also, when she stole the checks from Amy, she had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name of the checks. How was she planning to explain that? She knew if she got caught for stealing the checks she would no longer be friends with all of them. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter. I think that’s why she partied like crazy, dated, bought things and got a tattoo. I think she knew she was going to have to own up to everything sooner or later so in the meantime she was going to have fun. It would also explain her comment to Lee about how this (calling the cops) should have been done long ago. If you think about it, it doesnt sound like she was at all nervous or shocked that the police were being called. I think she expected this all along (to get arrested) but used the Nanny story to create reasonable doubt (not that it did).

Sick… yes.

Possible? I don’t know.
:waitasec:

I have had very similar thoughts myself, and have said many times that I think her behaviour afterwards could well have been just a sort of manic final fling because she knew the jig would be up at some point. I agree with you that it appears she had NO plan for explaining a 'disappeared' Caylee, at least not until her mother found her and started demanding answers. If she already had the 'kidnapping' plot worked out, then as you say, why didn't she 'raise the alarm' within a few days of Caylee's death, as soon as she had disposed of the body. She also obviously had no plan for the disposal either, as it appears she drove around with a dead Caylee in the car for at least a few days.


I agree. Also, I don't mean this in a sympathetic way at all, but I think she went into some kind of denial where she just decided to "ignore" what she did as if to pretend it never happened. I believe she started believing her own lies and that is why she hasn't shown any emotion.

When you think about her stealing the checks from Amy, it just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't she try to hide it somehow? She signed her name to the checks so it wasn't like Amy wasn't going to find out. I don't think she cared because she knew it would soon be over. JMO

radio
01-15-2009, 12:46 PM
I agree. Also, I don't mean this in a sympathetic way at all, but I think she went into some kind of denial where she just decided to "ignore" what she did as if to pretend it never happened. I believe she started believing her own lies and that is why she hasn't shown any emotion.

When you think about her stealing the checks from Amy, it just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't she try to hide it somehow? She signed her name to the checks so it wasn't like Amy wasn't going to find out. I don't think she cared because she knew it would soon be over. JMO

Good stuff.

Cindy has complained that no reporting has been done on how Casey was bonkers hysterical on the 31st(help) night and was on the floor in a bad way. Well, I understand that with the police on the way, she could have been upset, but the reason no reporting is no one has seen anything like that. Possible the jailers see stuff they can't tell - both ways imho.

Indigo
01-15-2009, 12:48 PM
Someone mentioned on Part 3 of the thread, near the end, that KC could have been viewing the father's day video of Caylee or some other video of Caylee on the computer while speaking with Jesse. Certainly plausible, but we don't have enough information from the computer forensics to determine if this occurred. I believe media players do save a history, so the information might be there.

Another possibility is that Jesse was mistaken, as he was in recounting the conversation he had with KC on the 24th. It was not unusual for him to hear Caylee in the background, but it did not always happen. Given it had been some time since he had seen Caylee, I believe there is room for poor recall here on his part.

As for the chloroform, it is still possible that a combination of cleaners (specifically dry-cleaning solution) and / or pesticides or fumigants (to kill flies and maggots) could have left behind the chloroform signature. Chemical analysis of the items seized from the parental home should determine whether or not this is a possibility. Given the seizure took place 5 months after the fact, there is room for doubt, meaning there could be an argument made that the cleaners/pesticides were used up prior to December and the containers long since discarded.

Yes, that was me wondering about the Father's Day video.(Did we lose that thread in the fire?) It's possible that the Coolpix camera had video/audio output also. I believe a cable would make instant playback possible in that case. I also agree that Jesse could be mistaken.

It will be interesting to see what comes up during trial in regard to the chloroform. I would think that the dry cleaning solution and the fumigants or the pool chemicals would give off additional VOCs that could help to set them apart in some way.

If an alternate explanation for the chloroform is offered, I wonder how it will be played out. What are your thoughts on this, JWG?

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 12:51 PM
I have had very similar thoughts myself, and have said many times that I think her behaviour afterwards could well have been just a sort of manic final fling because she knew the jig would be up at some point. I agree with you that it appears she had NO plan for explaining a 'disappeared' Caylee, at least not until her mother found her and started demanding answers. If she already had the 'kidnapping' plot worked out, then as you say, why didn't she 'raise the alarm' within a few days of Caylee's death, as soon as she had disposed of the body. She also obviously had no plan for the disposal either, as it appears she drove around with a dead Caylee in the car for at least a few days.

If this was a deliberate act, one would think it would have been easy to stage something, even half-a##ed, so as to not point the finger at her. She pretty much just let it play out, not knowing what to do.

I believe that had the argument not happened the night before, she may have made different choices. If Cindy accused her of multiple transgressions in the care of Caylee, & IF there was an unsupervised moment of neglect which contributed to her death, the very next day; that with which she had just been accused, Actually happens!!.....Her mother's prophecy has now come true. She is in shock.. calling 911 won't help, Caylee is dead... ."how can this be happening to ME".....

Would like to hear opposing views on this!

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 01:03 PM
If this was a deliberate act, one would think it would have been easy to stage something, even half-a##ed, so as to not point the finger at her. She pretty much just let it play out, not knowing what to do.

I believe that had the argument not happened the night before, she may have made different choices. If Cindy accused her of multiple transgressions in the care of Caylee, & IF there was an unsupervised moment of neglect which contributed to her death, the very next day; that with which she had just been accused, Actually happens!!.....Her mother's prophecy has now come true. She is in shock.. calling 911 won't help, Caylee is dead... ."how can this be happening to ME".....

Would like to hear opposing views on this!

I agree. If she had planned this she would have come up with something, anything in advance. I personally think she would have left town. All her actions afterwards were random. She just chose to ignore the whole thing. If she planned it, she would have been planting seeds all along and would have talked about Caylee a lot more than she did the days after. Her friends mentioned that she eventually ignored their questions Caylee's whereabouts. It's almost as if she was refusing to think about it, which to me doesn't add up if it was planned.

Also, if it was planned, why not do it before everyone went to PR? This way she could go on the trip and use the excuse that the nanny was watching Caylee while she was away. Then upon coming back she could have freaked out in front of her friends since they would have believed the Nanny was watching and then took Caylee. It would have been more believable as a week would have passed while she was away.

Devon
01-15-2009, 01:41 PM
If this was a deliberate act, one would think it would have been easy to stage something, even half-a##ed, so as to not point the finger at her. She pretty much just let it play out, not knowing what to do.

I believe that had the argument not happened the night before, she may have made different choices. If Cindy accused her of multiple transgressions in the care of Caylee, & IF there was an unsupervised moment of neglect which contributed to her death, the very next day; that with which she had just been accused, Actually happens!!.....Her mother's prophecy has now come true. She is in shock.. calling 911 won't help, Caylee is dead... ."how can this be happening to ME".....

Would like to hear opposing views on this!

Well there's no opposition from me at this time, because the alternative theories, e.g. Caylee murdered so that she could live happily ever after with AL, or murdered to spite CA, or just because she was an unwanted responsibility etc. just don't seem to 'feel' right to me. That's not because I can't accept that mothers kill their own children (I can and do) but because it just doesn't quite add up in this case IMO!

I see no concrete evidence of forethought, and what appears to be re-active, rather than pro-active afterthought. If it wasn't an accident due to negligence then IMO the next 'best-fit' scenario is a spur of the moment killing, no planning, no intent - just something that happened and KC lost control!

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 02:30 PM
Well there's no opposition from me at this time, because the alternative theories, e.g. Caylee murdered so that she could live happily ever after with AL, or murdered to spite CA, or just because she was an unwanted responsibility etc. just don't seem to 'feel' right to me. That's not because I can't accept that mothers kill their own children (I can and do) but because it just doesn't quite add up in this case IMO!

I see no concrete evidence of forethought, and what appears to be re-active, rather than pro-active afterthought. If it wasn't an accident due to negligence then IMO the next 'best-fit' scenario is a spur of the moment killing, no planning, no intent - just something that happened and KC lost control!

I know a lot has been said about her killing Caylee because she didn't want her, but I don't know if I truly believe that. By looking at the emails and text messages and what her friends have said, it doesn't appear to me that she hated or didn't want Caylee. I think she probably did feel trapped, but I think a lot of mothers feel that way at times. As for her saying "little snot nose", I honestly don't think that is as big as a deal as it's being made out to be. Although I've never said anything like that about my child (I'm way too proud of being a Mom! LOL), I've known a lot of mother's who have said a lot worse about their kids. Her history and her actions afterward just don't seem like it was planned. JMO.

PS: Please note that I am in NO WAY defending or condoning what Casey did. :furious:

Indigo
01-15-2009, 02:37 PM
Well there's no opposition from me at this time, because the alternative theories, e.g. Caylee murdered so that she could live happily ever after with AL, or murdered to spite CA, or just because she was an unwanted responsibility etc. just don't seem to 'feel' right to me. That's not because I can't accept that mothers kill their own children (I can and do) but because it just doesn't quite add up in this case IMO!

I see no concrete evidence of forethought, and what appears to be re-active, rather than pro-active afterthought. If it wasn't an accident due to negligence then IMO the next 'best-fit' scenario is a spur of the moment killing, no planning, no intent - just something that happened and KC lost control!

Casey could have had several motives. Fear that Caylee would eventually expose her double life could have been a very powerful one. This could be compared to Mark Hacking, who killed his wife simply because she found out about his lies.

stellasmommyphd
01-15-2009, 02:41 PM
The facts that I know as of this date over and over point to a deliberate death no matter how much I still naively wish it to have been an accident.

and this is still what LE is saying, right? i've been curious, how could they know that it was intentional without knowing HOW caylee died?

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 02:49 PM
and this is still what LE is saying, right? i've been curious, how could they know that it was intentional without knowing HOW caylee died?

This is interesting as I wonder what they have? From what I've seen I don't see it as intentional but they must have something. I guess we have to wait for the trial! Until then I still lean more toward it being an accident due to negligence, just because of her actions after the fact. Like another poster said, her actions seem re-activenot proactive.:confused:

cuppy199
01-15-2009, 02:55 PM
I know a lot has been said about her killing Caylee because she didn't want her, but I don't know if I truly believe that. By looking at the emails and text messages and what her friends have said, it doesn't appear to me that she hated or didn't want Caylee. I think she probably did feel trapped, but I think a lot of mothers feel that way at times. As for her saying "little snot nose", I honestly don't think that is as big as a deal as it's being made out to be. Although I've never said anything like that about my child (I'm way too proud of being a Mom! LOL), I've known a lot of mother's who have said a lot worse about their kids. Her history and her actions afterward just don't seem like it was planned. JMO.

PS: Please note that I am in NO WAY defending or condoning what Casey did. :furious:

I see what your saying :) The only problem is these so called friends didnt know the real Casey.And I bet if we were to ask them today they would admit that they never really knew KC as they thought. She lied and stoled from many and was real good at it. Just because on the outside someone might seem loving and caring by pictures emails and how they act around someone doesnt mean she wasnt something different when alone with Caylee. You see it time and time again in domestic case for example. Even family members are blind sided when they learn the truth.Just because someone has never been caught doesnt mean they have never been abusive to someone mentally or physically.Personally I think KC is a good con artist and uses her looks among other things to win people over.Its hard to believe a mother can kill a child but it happens alot more then one might think. And in alot of those cases friends and family believe they are loving to their children to.Everything KC as done sinse her daughter been missing screams to me that she is diffently the type of person to kill her child.I see right through her act.But thats just me and my opinion:)

Zuckerschnecke
01-15-2009, 03:01 PM
.but I just can't. Too much points to an intentional murder: the web searches, the chloroform, the not reporting her missing, the fake Nanny, the little dropped mentions of Caylee's favorite book (knowing full well that book would be found if the body was.) Too much of it indicates planning.

I think Casey planned to stage a kidnapping and had an elaborate plan in her head, and she seemed to be working on connections in California so she could leave Florida when all of this occurred. But in the heat of the moment after the fight with her mother, she acted out of despair and now she's trying to go along with the little bits and pieces of the plan she had long ago started - it's just not all falling into place the way she'd hoped.

If it was an accident, if Caylee drowned, something like that, Casey being the exemplary liar that she is, would have made something else up, blamed someone else AND played the POOR MOTHER thing to the max. Nothing would be better than that kind of sympathy. Imagine then the donations.

Maybe a juror will have more sympathy for her. I can't look at all the extenuating circumstances of this case and think that it was anything more than an ill-planned kidnapping story that got botched after the desperation created by this big fight with Cindy.

Indigo
01-15-2009, 03:06 PM
and this is still what LE is saying, right? i've been curious, how could they know that it was intentional without knowing HOW caylee died?

Maybe from evidence they gathered with the body? What follows is hypothetical: Even if evidence of chloroform, tape and cloth was found at the scene, experts would still not be able to determine it was the cause of death. The manner in which these were applied/ or never removed might tell a clearer story of intent. JMO.

Zuckerschnecke
01-15-2009, 03:09 PM
Maybe from evidence they gathered with the body? What follows is hypothetical: Even if evidence of chloroform, tape and cloth was found at the scene, experts would still not be able to determine it was the cause of death. The manner in which these were applied/ or never removed might tell a clearer story of intent. JMO.

Did the Medical Examiner, during that news conference mention that they didn't know 'yet' how she had died. Something gave me the impression that didn't know that day, but might in the future, I guess waiting for toxicology reports.

What's interesting is they say homicide, but no cause. I think this will come out because that is a big question that needs to be answered if they are certain it's a homicide. Otherwise, there will be some back pedalling.

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 03:13 PM
I see what your saying :) The only problem is these so called friends didnt know the real Casey.And I bet if we were to ask them today they would admit that they never really knew KC as they thought. She lied and stoled from many and was real good at it. Just because on the outside someone might seem loving and caring by pictures emails and how they act around someone doesnt mean she wasnt something different when alone with Caylee. You see it time and time again in domestic case for example. Even family members are blind sided when they learn the truth.Just because someone has never been caught doesnt mean they have never been abusive to someone mentally or physically.Personally I think KC is a good con artist and uses her looks among other things to win people over.Its hard to believe a mother can kill a child but it happens alot more then one might think. And in alot of those cases friends and family believe they are loving to their children to.Everything KC as done sinse her daughter been missing screams to me that she is diffently the type of person to kill her child.I see right through her act.But thats just me and my opinion:)


Oh, I totally see where you are coming from and I agree 100%. She could have been completely different when she was alone with Caylee, although in the videos, etc., it doesn't appear that Caylee was afraid of her. I do think that she is a con artist who has gotten by on her looks and uses it to her advantage.

I still think her actions afterward were not those of someone who had a plan. If she had planned this all along she wouldn't have just drove around, etc. She would have taking that time to plant ideas into her friends heads, etc. Also, Why not go to PR? She wanted to go and this would have been the perfect time to kill Caylee and have an excuse for where Caylee was. She could have come back and said that the Nanny took her. She could have put on a huge show and got everyone involved. She would still have the time advantage (of them not finding her) as she would have been gone on vacation when it happened. It would have been more believable. Story: A mother goes on vacation, leaves child with sitter, she and her friends come back and the child is gone... the babysitter and child are no where to be found.

As for stealing, I can see her thinking that she would get away with it with her family, but for her to sign Amy's checks she knew that Amy would know that she took the money and once Amy found out she would lose Amy, Tony, and all the others who were important to her at that time. If she cared, then I don't think she would have been so careless with her actions. I think she knew that she wouldn't be around by the time it came out, which leads me to think that she was partying her butt off because she knew it would end soon.

But as another poster said, the LE says she intentionally did this, so I wonder what they have.

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 03:18 PM
This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

The cover-up now begins. Caylee is beyond anyone's help at this point & only thru some momentary neglect on KC's part did this occur. She exonerates herself. This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

As crazy as this may sound to some people, (including myself) I see young people today, as not viewing death the way previous generations do. Witnessing KC's Facebook & MySpace, paints a fatalistic portrait of her views on life & death. I do not condone, in any way shape or manner, her actions on how she disposed of her daughter, I'm just trying to step outside & look at why or how this may have happened!

ITA! (Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm where have I heard this before lol!) Doesn't sound the least crazy to me (no less plausible than all the farfetched theories we hear). No actually, it is perfectly consistent w/ what we know of KC's self-involved, disorganized personality. KC lacked among many things the right priorities, good judgment, parenting skills and especially the maturity and selflessness to make the necessary sacrifices for her child. I just don't think that necessarily equates w malice and forethought. There was nothing preventing her from a party lifesyle when her parents had offered to assume custody and KC could have disappeared w/OUT Caylee--and been entirely free to do whatever she wanted. And there is more than one possible interpretation of her behavior following her daughter's death. One is the 'Dancing on the Grave' explanation. But it's also possible that all her high risk, manic behaviors simply escalated in her own attempt to escape the reality of what had happened. It doesn't villify or demonize KC, but as the mother of a 20 year-old daughter myself and grandmother to her two-year old daughter, one can only hope that should a young already labelled "unfit" unbalanced mother's self-centered, narcissistic behavior, poor priorities and childish preoccupation lead to the death of their child, they would have the courage, humility and mental stability to respond to that sort of trauma and tragedy in a brave, realistic or responsible way. IMO there just isn't the least shred, nothing whatsoever in KC's past indicating we could expect this kind of mentally stable response from her in the aftermath of this sort of scenario. JMO

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 03:23 PM
.but I just can't. Too much points to an intentional murder: the web searches, the chloroform, the not reporting her missing, the fake Nanny, the little dropped mentions of Caylee's favorite book (knowing full well that book would be found if the body was.) Too much of it indicates planning.

I think Casey planned to stage a kidnapping and had an elaborate plan in her head, and she seemed to be working on connections in California so she could leave Florida when all of this occurred. But in the heat of the moment after the fight with her mother, she acted out of despair and now she's trying to go along with the little bits and pieces of the plan she had long ago started - it's just not all falling into place the way she'd hoped.

If it was an accident, if Caylee drowned, something like that, Casey being the exemplary liar that she is, would have made something else up, blamed someone else AND played the POOR MOTHER thing to the max. Nothing would be better than that kind of sympathy. Imagine then the donations.

Maybe a juror will have more sympathy for her. I can't look at all the extenuating circumstances of this case and think that it was anything more than an ill-planned kidnapping story that got botched after the desperation created by this big fight with Cindy.


I have absoluetly NO SYMPATHY for her!!! I think some of the things you point out as to an intentional murder (not reporting her missing, the fake Nanny, Caylee's favorite book, etc.) points more to unintentional. They make no sense, there was no backup, no plan. It seems to me it was a spur of the moment decision (getting the book, not calling, etc). As for the the web searches and the chloroform, I just don't think these searches are as important as they appear to be. Really, who searches for a shovel? Even if you're planning to kill someone I just can't see seaching for a shovel. I think the choloform search was due to the picture that (Tony?) had. She probably didn't know what chloroform was and did a search, which lead to how its made, etc. Not saying that this is what happened, but the searches don't seem to hold as much weight with me.

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 03:28 PM
ITA! (Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm where have I heard this before lol!) Doesn't sound the least crazy to me (no less plausible than all the farfetched theories we hear). No actually, it is perfectly consistent w/ what we know of KC's self-involved, disorganized personality. KC lacked among many things the right priorities, good judgment, parenting skills and especially the maturity and selflessness to make the necessary sacrifices for her child. I just don't think that necessarily equates w malice and forethought. There was nothing preventing her from a party lifesyle when her parents had offered to assume custody and KC could have disappeared w/OUT Caylee--and been entirely free to do whatever she wanted. And there is more than one possible interpretation of her behavior following her daughter's death. One is the 'Dancing on the Grave' explanation. But it's also possible that all her high risk, manic behaviors simply escalated in her own attempt to escape the reality of what had happened. It doesn't villify or demonize KC, but as the mother of a 20 year-old daughter myself and grandmother to her two-year old daughter, one can only hope that should a young already labelled "unfit" unbalanced mother's self-centered, narcissistic behavior, poor priorities and childish preoccupation lead to the death of their child, they would have the courage, humility and mental stability to respond to that sort of trauma and tragedy in a brave, realistic or responsible way. IMO there just isn't the least shred, nothing whatsoever in KC's past indicating we could expect this kind of mentally stable response from her in the aftermath of this sort of scenario. JMO


OMG you said that perfectly! :clap:

radio
01-15-2009, 03:29 PM
I have absoluetly NO SYMPATHY for her!!! I think some of the things you point out as to an intentional murder (not reporting her missing, the fake Nanny, Caylee's favorite book, etc.) points more to unintentional. They make no sense, there was no backup, no plan. It seems to me it was a spur of the moment decision (getting the book, not calling, etc). As for the the web searches and the chloroform, I just don't think these searches are as important as they appear to be. Really, who searches for a shovel? Even if you're planning to kill someone I just can't see seaching for a shovel. I think the choloform search was due to the picture that (Tony?) had. She probably didn't know what chloroform was and did a search, which lead to how its made, etc. Not saying that this is what happened, but the searches don't seem to hold as much weight with me.

(Blue bold by me)

Hysterical when you actually think about it in context isn't it?!!! :floorlaugh:

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 03:32 PM
(Blue bold by me)

Hysterical when you actually think about it in context isn't it?!!! :floorlaugh:

I tell my husband all the time that if someone was ever to look on my computer and see my searches, I'd be put away for good! :bananapowerslide:

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 03:33 PM
I believe some dogs can hit at one hour's decomp. could depend on body actually.

I think 1.5 hours' death is enough for a dog to hit.

I posted this link and info on another earlier thread. Turns out cadaver dogs can pick up the scent of someone w/in minutes of time of death (ie where gases have been forming as little as ten--and even two--minutes) with amazing accuracy, the success rate of which only slightly diminishes relative to the amount of time body is in contact w that location. This leads me to believe the dogs hit in the backyard--near the pool--because that's logically the first place KC would have placed her (and possibly where Caylee laid if KC either made a desperate attempt to revive her or during the panicked series of calls) after retrieving Caylee from the pool. I see no other logical explanation for why KC would have chosen this spot to lay her daughter. JMO

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out--of a line-up of six new carpet squares--the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

desertmom
01-15-2009, 03:36 PM
There is something about Casey’s actions afterwards that have been bugging me. If this was a planned killing, wouldn’t it be likely that Casey would have had a plan on what she was going to do once she killed Caylee? To me, her actions afterwards tend to lean toward this being an accident. Here’s why:

If she had planned to kill Caylee, I would think that she would have had a better plan afterwards, like leaving the state (perhaps saying that she got a new job, etc), or calling 911 a couple of days later to report her missing like some other psycho moms have done. I think she would have thought of something better than the nanny story.

She had to know that she would eventually be caught or have to answer to everyone as to where Caylee was. I can’t imagine that she thought that this would go on forever and that she would be able to keep Caylee away from everyone. I know this is probably not the way it happened, but I’m just trying to think of all the different scenarios…

What if…

During the day Casey and Caylee were in the pool (would explain why the ladder was up) and after being in the pool for awhile, Caylee takes a nap (perhaps out of site from where Casey is on the computer). At that time Casey goes online and starts chatting with friends. While on the computer, Caylee wakes up and wanders outside since that was where she last saw her mom. After awhile, Casey checks in on Caylee and sees that she’s not there so she starts looking around the house. After searching the house, she starts to panic and without thinking calls her parents because she can’t find Caylee. No one answers. She continues to look and finds her dead in the pool. Instead of doing the right thing and calling 911, she sees that Caylee is dead and quickly comes to the realization that she is at fault and that her Mom will blame her. So instead of facing the truth (which we know is easy for her) she realizes that she has to come up with something. She is no longer panicking or upset as in her mind she has removed herself from the situation and goes into her manipulating mode.

She gets a bag and lays a wet Caylee on top of it in the trunk (could explain the trace amount of chloroform in the trunk) . She then goes back into the house and grabs all her stuff and takes off. She becomes cold to the facts and ignores what has happened until the smell. At some point she takes Caylee out of the trunk and tries to bury her in the backyard and eventually moves her. She gets rid of the car and places it by a dumpster thinking that she can tell people the smell is from the garbage. Knowing that she will probably get caught, she comes up with the nanny story and decides to do everything she wants while she still can.


If you think about it, her old friends have said that she acted differently by partying, etc. Could it be that Casey decides to live it up as she knew it was only a matter of time that she’d be caught? Also, when she stole the checks from Amy, she had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name of the checks. How was she planning to explain that? She knew if she got caught for stealing the checks she would no longer be friends with all of them. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter. I think that’s why she partied like crazy, dated, bought things and got a tattoo. I think she knew she was going to have to own up to everything sooner or later so in the meantime she was going to have fun. It would also explain her comment to Lee about how this (calling the cops) should have been done long ago. If you think about it, it doesnt sound like she was at all nervous or shocked that the police were being called. I think she expected this all along (to get arrested) but used the Nanny story to create reasonable doubt (not that it did).

Sick… yes.

Possible? I don’t know.
:waitasec:

I agree with your theory on her behavior regarding the partying and especially, the check-writing. I have always felt that this was her one last "hoorah" so to speak. She knew she would get caught for the checks, but in her mind, she knew she was going to have to answer to something way more sinister, so it didn't matter to her. She was going to make the most of the time she had left.

Another thing has been bothering me and forgive me if it has already been discussed or dismissed. I have read a couple of posts regarding chloroform being used in the veterinary industry, although I don't remember the exact details.

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but someone posted about a live chat that took place one night on Murt's channel a few months ago. This was while LP was searching the Little Econ river. On the live chat, this person,(I can't remember the name she used offhand), claimed to know everything that happened and said that three people were involved and those people were cooperating with LE. It had something to do with chloroform being used on one someone's dogs. She said that initially Caylee's death was an accident, but then it turned into a cover up. She was complaining that if Casey didn't tell the truth, it was going to ruin a lot of lives. Does anyone remember this? Was it discussed and put to rest? Just curious.

Indigo
01-15-2009, 03:40 PM
ITA! (Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm where have I heard this before lol!) Doesn't sound the least crazy to me (no less plausible than all the farfetched theories we hear). No actually, it is perfectly consistent w/ what we know of KC's self-involved, disorganized personality. KC lacked among many things the right priorities, good judgment, parenting skills and especially the maturity and selflessness to make the necessary sacrifices for her child. I just don't think that necessarily equates w malice and forethought. There was nothing preventing her from a party lifesyle when her parents had offered to assume custody and KC could have disappeared w/OUT Caylee--and been entirely free to do whatever she wanted. And there is more than one possible interpretation of her behavior following her daughter's death. One is the 'Dancing on the Grave' explanation. But it's also possible that all her high risk, manic behaviors simply escalated in her own attempt to escape the reality of what had happened. It doesn't villify or demonize KC, but as the mother of a 20 year-old daughter myself and grandmother to her two-year old daughter, one can only hope that should a young already labelled "unfit" unbalanced mother's self-centered, narcissistic behavior, poor priorities and childish preoccupation lead to the death of their child, they would have the courage, humility and mental stability to respond to that sort of trauma and tragedy in a brave, realistic or responsible way. IMO there just isn't the least shred, nothing whatsoever in KC's past indicating we could expect this kind of mentally stable response from her in the aftermath of this sort of scenario. JMO

When we look at the crimes that Casey previously committed, I think it paints a dark, predatory picture. She stole from her sick, elderly grandfather. She stole from her best friend. It's absolutely chilling to read the text messages between Casey and Amy after Amy discovered her money was missing. This, to me, is the perfect snapshot of the Casey who appears vs. the Casey who is.

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 03:41 PM
I agree with your theory on her behavior regarding the partying and especially, the check-writing. I have always felt that this was her one last "hoorah" so to speak. She knew she would get caught for the checks, but in her mind, she knew she was going to have to answer to something way more sinister, so it didn't matter to her. She was going to make the most of the time she had left.

Another thing has been bothering me and forgive me if it has already been discussed or dismissed. I have read a couple of posts regarding chloroform being used in the veterinary industry, although I don't remember the exact details.

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but someone posted about a live chat that took place one night on Murt's channel a few months ago. This was while LP was searching the Little Econ river. On the live chat, this person,(I can't remember the name she used offhand), claimed to know everything that happened and said that three people were involved and those people were cooperating with LE. It had something to do with chloroform being used on one someone's dogs. She said that initially Caylee's death was an accident, but then it turned into a cover up. She was complaining that if Casey didn't tell the truth, it was going to ruin a lot of lives. Does anyone remember this? Was it discussed and put to rest? Just curious.


Hmmm... I never heard that. I do wonder what the LE has. There has been a lot that we haven't seen, such as Annie's interview. Makes you wonder why...

I'm sure the defense also has things that we don't know, but with their history I'm not sure if any of it will be believable. The trial will be VERY interesting and I can't wait to here both sides.

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 03:49 PM
ITA! (Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm where have I heard this before lol!) Doesn't sound the least crazy to me (no less plausible than all the farfetched theories we hear). No actually, it is perfectly consistent w/ what we know of KC's self-involved, disorganized personality. KC lacked among many things the right priorities, good judgment, parenting skills and especially the maturity and selflessness to make the necessary sacrifices for her child. I just don't think that necessarily equates w malice and forethought. There was nothing preventing her from a party lifesyle when her parents had offered to assume custody and KC could have disappeared w/OUT Caylee--and been entirely free to do whatever she wanted. And there is more than one possible interpretation of her behavior following her daughter's death. One is the 'Dancing on the Grave' explanation. But it's also possible that all her high risk, manic behaviors simply escalated in her own attempt to escape the reality of what had happened. It doesn't villify or demonize KC, but as the mother of a 20 year-old daughter myself and grandmother to her two-year old daughter, one can only hope that should a young already labelled "unfit" unbalanced mother's self-centered, narcissistic behavior, poor priorities and childish preoccupation lead to the death of their child, they would have the courage, humility and mental stability to respond to that sort of trauma and tragedy in a brave, realistic or responsible way. IMO there just isn't the least shred, nothing whatsoever in KC's past indicating we could expect this kind of mentally stable response from her in the aftermath of this sort of scenario. JMO:clap:
Once again Kiki, your elaboration is inspirational & supports my theory, even more than when I wrote it! "Dancing on the Grave" is brilliant!

I wonder if something on this type of scenerio is what Baez means when he says, "you don't know the half of it" ...also to why Cindy says KC would never harm Caylee? One can only hope?

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 03:51 PM
If this was a deliberate act, one would think it would have been easy to stage something, even half-a##ed, so as to not point the finger at her. She pretty much just let it play out, not knowing what to do.

I believe that had the argument not happened the night before, she may have made different choices. If Cindy accused her of multiple transgressions in the care of Caylee, & IF there was an unsupervised moment of neglect which contributed to her death, the very next day; that with which she had just been accused, Actually happens!!.....Her mother's prophecy has now come true. She is in shock.. calling 911 won't help, Caylee is dead... ."how can this be happening to ME".....

Would like to hear opposing views on this!

You'll get no opposition from me LOL. This is what I've been saying, "from Day One." If we look back on those telling words of KC's, in the Diary of Days following, it is equally consistent:

“On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken
Trust no one, only yourself.
With great power, comes great consequence.
What is given can be taken away.
Everyone Lies.
Everyone Dies.”

There is nothing in this which suggests premeditation, nor even the mindset of one who has intentionally murdered. It conveys, rather, a mind and heart shut down--unable to register the horror of something she does not so much seem to deny responsibility for as she is saying it's the indirect consequence of her irresponsibility or something over which she appears to be feeling powerless. If she is indeed referring to Caylee, she uses the word "taken." And that, to me, is terribly significant. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 04:01 PM
:clap:
Once again Kiki, your elaboration is inspirational & supports my theory, even more than when I wrote it! "Dancing on the Grave" is brilliant!

I wonder if something on this type of scenerio is what Baez means when he says, "you don't know the half of it" ...also to why Cindy says KC would never harm Caylee? One can only hope?

Omg where have you been all my (WS) life lol. Just go back thru earlier Theories threads etc, this has long been my own unpopular belief ("I can't get no help around here!") since I joined in September. Since then it's been hard to refine this theory though since there's hardly anybody off whom to bounce ideas--ie if they were tossed back at all, it was done pretty roughly... LOL
;)
:toast:
:blowkiss:

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 04:05 PM
Omg where have you been all my (WS) life lol. Just go back thru earlier Theories threads etc, this has long been my own unpopular belief ("I can't get no help around here!") since I joined in September. Since then it's been hard to refine this theory though since there's hardly anybody off whom to bounce ideas--ie if they were tossed back at all, it was done pretty roughly... LOL
;)
:toast:
:blowkiss:

We are here! We just get lost in the crowds sometimes. :blowkiss:

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Omg where have you been all my (WS) life lol. Just go back thru earlier Theories threads etc, this has long been my own unpopular belief ("I can't get no help around here!") since I joined in September. Since then it's been hard to refine this theory though since there's hardly anybody off whom to bounce ideas--ie if they were tossed back at all, it was done pretty roughly... LOL
;)
:toast:
:blowkiss:


I personally like bouncing ideas back and forth and going with the "what if's", as it makes you think deeper and have a better understanding. It's not always the "popular" thing to do, but I enjoy playing the devil's advocate as most things are never as simple as it seems.

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 05:35 PM
I personally like bouncing ideas back and forth and going with the "what if's", as it makes you think deeper and have a better understanding. It's not always the "popular" thing to do, but I enjoy playing the devil's advocate as most things are never as simple as it seems.
ITA And who wants to be popular?? I love people who express their opinions with passion & feeling for all the facts in this case.

There are quite a few like Kiki, who are gifted, to be able to write so eloquently, their deepest feelings & stretch your thinking to consider other alternatives.

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 05:52 PM
When we look at the crimes that Casey previously committed, I think it paints a dark, predatory picture. She stole from her sick, elderly grandfather. She stole from her best friend. It's absolutely chilling to read the text messages between Casey and Amy after Amy discovered her money was missing. This, to me, is the perfect snapshot of the Casey who appears vs. the Casey who is.

I think it's important to distinguish between violent, versus non-violent, crime. There is an inverted relationship (ie positive association w non-violent crime accompanies a negative association w violent crime and vice versa). There are numerous significant differences between criminal careers of violent and non-violent criminals. Studies support a division of antisocial behavior into violent and non-violent subgroups, with markedly different pathways. (People who commit tax and insurance fraud eg aren't commonly prone to assault or predisposed to become violent offenders.) So because KC was committing non-violent property crimes ie check fraud, stealing (which escalated in the absence of any consequences, and among other compulsive high-risk behaviors like sexing eg) does not mean she's necessarily violent or capable of filicide. There's been nothing in her history to indicate she was ever abusive to Caylee, nor any report of violence by KC. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-15-2009, 06:09 PM
I personally like bouncing ideas back and forth and going with the "what if's", as it makes you think deeper and have a better understanding. It's not always the "popular" thing to do, but I enjoy playing the devil's advocate as most things are never as simple as it seems.

Well that makes 3 or 4 of us anyway, lol. So let me ask you then... does KC's Diary of Days entry suggest to you too the possibility of something accidental? Notwithstanding a cover-up after the fact, why would anyone who finally has the freedom they've planned or even just dreamed of, who's simply thrown away their child, write about having what was once given being "taken away?" Not the same at all IMO.
:waitasec:

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 06:31 PM
Well that makes 3 or 4 of us anyway, lol. So let me ask you then... does KC's Diary of Days entry suggest to you too the possibility of something accidental? Notwithstanding a cover-up after the fact, why would anyone who finally has the freedom they've planned or even just dreamed of, who's simply thrown away their child, write about having what was once given being "taken away?" Not the same at all IMO.
:waitasec:

Sorry for the late response, I just got home! To tell you the truth I never really put much thought into it, but after you posted it and gave your views, I can definetly see what your saying. It seems like it was her way of admitting what she had done and it was an accident. Again, just trying to think outside the box... :)

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 06:57 PM
ITA And who wants to be popular?? I love people who express their opinions with passion & feeling for all the facts in this case.

There are quite a few like Kiki, who are gifted, to be able to write so eloquently, their deepest feelings & stretch your thinking to consider other alternatives.

I think it's important to try and see both sides, whether or not you believe it. I was recently on a jury and when it came time to deliberate I was shocked at how many of the jurors had their mind made up without wanting to discuss it. Of course, there were 4 of us that insisted on going through ALL the evidence... :crazy:

Rumpole
01-15-2009, 07:11 PM
I think it's important to try and see both sides, whether or not you believe it. I was recently on a jury and when it came time to deliberate I was shocked at how many of the jurors had their mind made up without wanting to discuss it. Of course, there were 4 of us that insisted on going through ALL the evidence... :crazy:
And were the 8 quick thinkers correct after all that, or did the conscientious 4 get them all to change their minds?

Who_What_When
01-15-2009, 07:33 PM
And were the 8 quick thinkers correct after all that, or did the conscientious 4 get them all to change their minds?

Actually we found the person guilty but of a lesser charge after reviewing everything throughly. The 8 brought things out in a different light and so did the four, so it was amazing to see how a group can really work through things even when you don't agree right away.

The one thing I was amazed by is that it's a lot easier to find guilt when your watching it on TV or reading it in a paper. I would sit and watch trials and think, how can the jury even think about this, it's a slam dunk! But when the judge gives you the rules and you have to follow the law, it's not as black and white as it seems when your on the outside. I can see how jurors have no choice but to say it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt, even when it seems obvious. I was glad that we really went through it instead of just going off our emotions, regardless of what we personally thought of the situation we had to go off the evidence and follow the law, which in this case worked.

JWG
01-15-2009, 11:37 PM
This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

The cover-up now begins. Caylee is beyond anyone's help at this point & only thru some momentary neglect on KC's part did this occur. She exonerates herself. This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

As crazy as this may sound to some people, (including myself) I see young people today, as not viewing death the way previous generations do. Witnessing KC's Facebook & MySpace, paints a fatalistic portrait of her views on life & death. I do not condone, in any way shape or manner, her actions on how she disposed of her daughter, I'm just trying to step outside & look at why or how this may have happened!

Thank you Reeseeva - pretty insightful analysis. I have likened KC's reaction to an accidental death (negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc) as "KC having blown a fuse". I don't mean that she went into a rage. I mean she completed the disconnect from reality.

As with Bond, I have run the gamut of accident to diabolical, pre-meditated murder. Right now I am probably still leaning toward accidental.

I can certainly reconcile KC's behavior after Caylee's death in an accidental situation as that as a pure narcissist. But, a narcissist can kill too. I try to keep an open mind and bounce things around. Hopefully they do not bounce back too hard!

reeseeva
01-15-2009, 11:50 PM
I agree with your theory on her behavior regarding the partying and especially, the check-writing. I have always felt that this was her one last "hoorah" so to speak. She knew she would get caught for the checks, but in her mind, she knew she was going to have to answer to something way more sinister, so it didn't matter to her. She was going to make the most of the time she had left.

Another thing has been bothering me and forgive me if it has already been discussed or dismissed. I have read a couple of posts regarding chloroform being used in the veterinary industry, although I don't remember the exact details.

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but someone posted about a live chat that took place one night on Murt's channel a few months ago. This was while LP was searching the Little Econ river. On the live chat, this person,(I can't remember the name she used offhand), claimed to know everything that happened and said that three people were involved and those people were cooperating with LE. It had something to do with chloroform being used on one someone's dogs. She said that initially Caylee's death was an accident, but then it turned into a cover up. She was complaining that if Casey didn't tell the truth, it was going to ruin a lot of lives. Does anyone remember this? Was it discussed and put to rest? Just curious.

Yes, I also happened to bring it up last week, as I recall that one of her friends may have worked for a Vet, whom I thought was Annie D??, who has been under the radar. Apparently, one response I got was that certain individuals used chloroform to come down from meth. I will try to find the posts or threads & get back to you.

CourtsInSession
01-16-2009, 01:34 AM
I agree, goldfish, and for the same reasons. Every now and then I try to imagine an alternate story, but I keep coming back to a deliberate act. I also think premeditated most of the time.

I wonder if Casey didn't leave with Caylee right after the fight with CA on the 15th, and go to the abandoned house. She would be so full of rage at her mother, that possibly she taped Caylee's mouth, and took her rage out on Caylee. She may have chocked Caylee just like Cindy tried to do to her, to get even with her mother.

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 02:08 AM
After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

txsvicki
01-16-2009, 02:37 AM
I don't think a jury is going to have much trouble believing premeditation. Three months prior chloroform searches then a dead body and chloroform in the trunk. Prior computer searches on missing children lead up to a missing child then a dead child with tape around her mouth. A shovel search leads to a borrowed shovel. No cadaver dog hits on the pool or in the pool. The dog hit in the corner by the pool where the bush had been dug out. The defense will have a heck of a time trying to prove an accident.

Egoslayer
01-16-2009, 03:59 AM
After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

If George was in on it why would he tell FBI he was 'scared it could be his granddaughter in there' and why were there high traces of chloroform in the car?

Egoslayer
01-16-2009, 04:18 AM
IMO - the clorophorm was just pesticide.


FACTS:
Chloroform doesn't knock people out for hours. At most it lasts 15 minutes.
Benadryl is cheaper than making/buying chloroform.
Chloroform is NOT the same thing as chlorine.
Chloroform is found in certain dyes and pesticides.

Forensic fan
01-16-2009, 07:49 AM
You'll get no opposition from me LOL. This is what I've been saying, "from Day One." If we look back on those telling words of KC's, in the Diary of Days following, it is equally consistent:

“On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken
Trust no one, only yourself.
With great power, comes great consequence.
What is given can be taken away.
Everyone Lies.
Everyone Dies.”

There is nothing in this which suggests premeditation, nor even the mindset of one who has intentionally murdered. It conveys, rather, a mind and heart shut down--unable to register the horror of something she does not so much seem to deny responsibility for as she is saying it's the indirect consequence of her irresponsibility or something over which she appears to be feeling powerless. If she is indeed referring to Caylee, she uses the word "taken." And that, to me, is terribly significant. JMO


I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

Forensic fan
01-16-2009, 07:58 AM
After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

I can't believe that GA wouldn't call 911 if this had happened. Why a coverup?

kline
01-16-2009, 09:05 AM
I don't think a jury is going to have much trouble believing premeditation. Three months prior chloroform searches then a dead body and chloroform in the trunk. Prior computer searches on missing children lead up to a missing child then a dead child with tape around her mouth. A shovel search leads to a borrowed shovel. No cadaver dog hits on the pool or in the pool. The dog hit in the corner by the pool where the bush had been dug out. The defense will have a heck of a time trying to prove an accident.Especially considering it wasnt an accident .:)Im sure the jurors will be level headed enough tolook at Casey behavior after Caylee's dissappearence and the rest of the evidence and follow it to its one logical conclusion.
I dont think the defense will be able to sway them with adle-pated 'accident' fantasies.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 09:54 AM
I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

I never took it that way. If you're right and I'm wrong, that would indeed make her one spiteful b* But if I put these into context--ie w her remarks to LA, LE ("Maybe I am an unfit mother" etc), vengance or malice just never seemed to me to fit as well w the kind of guilt and regret she later seems to express to some. Seriously, can someone who could deliberately, coldbloodedly murder their child simply to spite their parent then just spin around and have a sudden attack of conscience or heaviness of heart? I really don't know the answer, but to me the idea is just mindboggling. JMHUO
:waitasec:

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 10:16 AM
Especially considering it wasnt an accident .:)Im sure the jurors will be level headed enough tolook at Casey behavior after Caylee's dissappearence and the rest of the evidence and follow it to its one logical conclusion.
I dont think the defense will be able to sway them with adle-pated 'accident' fantasies.

The defense has their work cut out for them, to be sure! Especially since it appears KC tampered w/ and destroyed the only evidence which could ever have proven a negligence scenario. I consider myself quite levelheaded and grow weary of the constant jabs at any of us who are just waiting patiently for the rest of the pieces--ie referring to my own theory as "addlepated" ("stupid, blathering, muddleheaded," really love new words btw and that's a new one on me) but could we knock off the attacks just the same? That's why the last Theories thread got locked down... TIA! JMO
:)

Continue to post and discuss your theories here. Leave the attacks and off topic chit chat at the door.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78053

Forensic fan
01-16-2009, 10:37 AM
I never took it that way. If you're right and I'm wrong, that would indeed make her one spiteful b* But if I put these into context--w her remarks to LA, LE ("Maybe I am an unfit mother" etc), vengance or malice just never seemed to me to fit as well w the kind of guilt and regret she later seems to express to some. Seriously, can someone who could deliberately, coldbloodedly murder their child simply to spite their parent then just spin around and have an attack of conscience or any heaviness of heart? I really don't know the answer, but to me the idea is just mindboggling. JMHUO
:waitasec:

I feel that that the remarks she said, "Maybe I am an unfit mother, This should have been done a long time ago" were just to gain sympathy for herself. I can remember when I was a kid and got in big trouble when something I did was found out, I would say, "Oh, I am so stupid" or "I don't want to live any more". My parents would then say "Oh, don't say that, you are not stupid, honey, we love you." It took the focus off what I had done very fast and then they felt sorry for me instead of being angry with me.

Blaise
01-16-2009, 11:30 AM
I posted this link and info on another earlier thread. Turns out cadaver dogs can pick up the scent of someone w/in minutes of time of death (ie where gases have been forming as little as ten--and even two--minutes) with amazing accuracy, the success rate of which only slightly diminishes relative to the amount of time body is in contact w that location. This leads me to believe the dogs hit in the backyard--near the pool--because that's logically the first place KC would have placed her (and possibly where Caylee laid if KC either made a desperate attempt to revive her or during the panicked series of calls) after retrieving Caylee from the pool. I see no other logical explanation for why KC would have chosen this spot to lay her daughter. JMO

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out--of a line-up of six new carpet squares--the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

I was just having morbid thoughts about how they found the people who they knew were gonna die so they could have the dogs on the spot. I think I'd get a bit worried if I looked up and there was a cadavar dog sitting there, tongue wagging, just waiting.

Blaise (back off, you stupid dog. It's just a cold!)

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 11:38 AM
I feel that that the remarks she said, "Maybe I am an unfit mother, This should have been done a long time ago" were just to gain sympathy for herself. I can remember when I was a kid and got in big trouble when something I did was found out, I would say, "Oh, I am so stupid" or "I don't want to live any more". My parents would then say "Oh, don't say that, you are not stupid, honey, we love you." It took the focus off what I had done very fast and then they felt sorry for me instead of being angry with me.

I interpreted those sayings as a momentary slip of profound consciousness, as if she stood outside herself for a brief moment, a truthfull self-analysis of her own ego, of knowing the remedy to her actions, "Maybe this should have been done a long time ago", "Maybe I am a spiteful Bi##h", glimpses of the truth, which I feel in her mind, is letting out what she feels most people are too stupid to recognize. She is smarter than everyone & even has the answers. And then, Switch....a text to Tony, "I hate myself, I will never forgive myself"....Switch......" If they don't find her, guess who spends an eternity in jail"......this last statement is seriously revealing....What innocent mother of a kidnapped child would EVER make that statement:eek: and this was on the first day, July 16th!

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 11:53 AM
If George was in on it why would he tell FBI he was 'scared it could be his granddaughter in there' and why were there high traces of chloroform in the car?
If you were "afriad" you were about to be caught - what would YOU say? I have heard lots of talk around here about how cholorform can be a by product of someone that has died in a swimming pool - it is a natural by-product anyway its just the levels were extremely high. IMO the choloroform was used as a cleaner and not part of the actual deed.

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 12:01 PM
I can't believe that GA wouldn't call 911 if this had happened. Why a coverup?
When they found her - she was already gone. GA knew this and being ex-LE knew the ramifications of it all. Plus with monster KC telling - no screaming at him - this is all YOUR fault - YOU had her - YOU were here with her. Sure, he can go and say I didn't know she was here - BUT that really isn't going to fly with a jury. Negligent homicide. Plus the finger pointing back and forth by the two of them - its HIS fault - NO, its HER fault.

Then there's the messy little problem of CA - WHAT do we tell her? HOW do we keep her "out of the loop"? CA is a nutjob and would have immediately gone to LE had she known.

So, the weeks that followed GA being ex-LE was doing little things here and there to set-up KC and cast blame. The ladder left in the pool for example.

I don't know IF this is the case - THERE IS SOMETHING that is causing the "supposedly innocents" in this case to lawyer up. If you haven't done anything wrong - then why do you need a lawyer much less immunity? This visit just casts more suspicion on the whole story.

lilnycsweetie
01-16-2009, 01:10 PM
I feel that that the remarks she said, "Maybe I am an unfit mother, This should have been done a long time ago" were just to gain sympathy for herself. I can remember when I was a kid and got in big trouble when something I did was found out, I would say, "Oh, I am so stupid" or "I don't want to live any more". My parents would then say "Oh, don't say that, you are not stupid, honey, we love you." It took the focus off what I had done very fast and then they felt sorry for me instead of being angry with me.

Just another thought on your comments. There was obviously some kind of relationship between CA and KC - even if it was love/hate. There would be times where they got along and things seemed normal. CA would tell her she is proud of her and she is being a good mom. Then KC would make a stupid decision, like go out all night and not call home. At that point, the relationship would turn a little bitter. CA would tell her to grow up and act responsible and that good parents don’t do that kind of stuff.

Most young girls know that even if we don’t want to accept what our mothers are telling us at the time, we do go home and think about what they say to us. Those comments seem to just sit there and feaster in our heads. I deeply believe that KC did worry about what her mom thought of her. It might not be as apparent to the outside world, but young mothers do look for acceptance and advice from their moms. Even KC's best friends had no idea how hard and frustrating it is to have a 2 year old. Her mother was really the only one that understood KC from that aspect.

Ok, the whole point I am trying to make is that if this is an accident then she could never call 911 and report it. All of those comments her mother made to her about KC being irresponsible would be true. She would not only prove her mother right, but she would never receive that acceptance from her mother again. KC needs acceptance, look at her love life, she is looking everywhere for love. Her mother loves and accepts her but would she continue to do that after she killed her daughter. No way!

desertmom
01-16-2009, 01:36 PM
Yes, I also happened to bring it up last week, as I recall that one of her friends may have worked for a Vet, whom I thought was Annie D??, who has been under the radar. Apparently, one response I got was that certain individuals used chloroform to come down from meth. I will try to find the posts or threads & get back to you.

Reeseeva:

Thanks! After posting, I realized that if sources from LE are saying that KC acted alone and deliberately, then I guess this theory doesn't hold much water and was just a rumor and/or someone trying to get their 15 minutes in this case. It is interesting, though and will also be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 01:37 PM
I feel that that the remarks she said, "Maybe I am an unfit mother, This should have been done a long time ago" were just to gain sympathy for herself. I can remember when I was a kid and got in big trouble when something I did was found out, I would say, "Oh, I am so stupid" or "I don't want to live any more". My parents would then say "Oh, don't say that, you are not stupid, honey, we love you." It took the focus off what I had done very fast and then they felt sorry for me instead of being angry with me.

Well KC was in "big trouble" for something, that goes w/out question. But based on what you're saying it sounds to me like maybe one doesn't necessarily have to be guilty of first degree murder then to try to minimize the guilt one is feeling...? Unless you have something you'd like to get off your conscience lol (J/K!) JMO
:)

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 01:41 PM
I was just having morbid thoughts about how they found the people who they knew were gonna die so they could have the dogs on the spot. I think I'd get a bit worried if I looked up and there was a cadavar dog sitting there, tongue wagging, just waiting.

Blaise (back off, you stupid dog. It's just a cold!)

ROFL you have a very "thorough" imagination and a "highly functioning" sense of humor lol, I just hadn't even thought about that!

:crazy:

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 01:41 PM
Reeseeva:

Thanks! After posting, I realized that if sources from LE are saying that KC acted alone and deliberately, then I guess this theory doesn't hold much water and was just a rumor and/or someone trying to get their 15 minutes in this case. It is interesting, though and will also be interesting to see if anything comes of it.
The fact that LE supposedly leaked this "acted alone and did it intentionally" has never sat well with me. WHY would they leak something like that? Reaks of LE setting a trap and that statement is the "bait". Did they or have they (LE) found something that implicates someone else - NOT in the actual deed - but defnintely a cover-up?

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Just another thought on your comments. There was obviously some kind of relationship between CA and KC - even if it was love/hate. There would be times where they got along and things seemed normal. CA would tell her she is proud of her and she is being a good mom. Then KC would make a stupid decision, like go out all night and not call home. At that point, the relationship would turn a little bitter. CA would tell her to grow up and act responsible and that good parents don’t do that kind of stuff.

Most young girls know that even if we don’t want to accept what our mothers are telling us at the time, we do go home and think about what they say to us. Those comments seem to just sit there and feaster in our heads. I deeply believe that KC did worry about what her mom thought of her. It might not be as apparent to the outside world, but young mothers do look for acceptance and advice from their moms. Even KC's best friends had no idea how hard and frustrating it is to have a 2 year old. Her mother was really the only one that understood KC from that aspect.

Ok, the whole point I am trying to make is that if this is an accident then she could never call 911 and report it. All of those comments her mother made to her about KC being irresponsible would be true. She would not only prove her mother right, but she would never receive that acceptance from her mother again. KC needs acceptance, look at her love life, she is looking everywhere for love. Her mother loves and accepts her but would she continue to do that after she killed her daughter. No way!

Such an insightful response will get no argument from here, only a word to the (very) wise, just be ready to face the wrath of WS! JMO

:thewhip: :rage: :fight: :ouch:

piratemom
01-16-2009, 03:24 PM
Is it possible that KC would leave Caylee at the abandoned house in the last days of her life?

Is it possible that since a Gonzalez owned the house she would say she's with ZG and really think that/mean that?

Has anyone read on the daily updates thread what the person on Scared Monkeys said about the Annie/Zanny connection?

Didnt CA say in the beginning she thinks Zanny is Annie?

God this whole thing makes my head hurt! How could a mother/grandmother know there was no nanny all along, no job by KC and yet go along with all of this? This is really psycho stuff!

I wish someone would finally crack all of this! There are so many loose ends!

OK better go before my theories turn into a rant!

Cayleefan
01-16-2009, 04:42 PM
I believe she was sedated and chloroform was used as well. I also think that she may have possibly drown in the pool while being sedated. Here's why I think that... Remember when Biaz held that news conference where he stated that little Caylee may have died from an unwitting dose of sedatives etc.? He also mentioned something to the effect, why mothers sometimes kill their children? I believe it's called [u]Filicide. I looked filicide up on the net back then and it said something about sedating and then drowning a child, somewhere in the article. And the whole pool deal,Cindy discovering the ladder had been removed, the dogs hit near the pool, Casey stating back then that she borrowed the neighbor's shovel to scoop out some bamboo that was at the bottom of the pool and the neighbor's a little noise, such as people playing in the pool that afternoon. IDK. I could be wrong, but JMO.:twocents::online:

P.S. You can choose more that one answer.

***MOD NOTE: I merged your thread here since it deals with Theories***

Janis396
01-16-2009, 04:48 PM
I voted smothered. I've always thought Casey killed Caylee in a fit of rage, and after seeing that new jail video of the "Monster Mom" yesterday, it just solidified it for me.

Meagain
01-16-2009, 04:54 PM
Strangulation wasn't on the list.

Mysticj
01-16-2009, 04:56 PM
I think she was sedated and drowned. But ther is no option for that.

tehcloser
01-16-2009, 04:56 PM
Strangulation wasn't on the list.


That get's my vote.

rcvela001
01-16-2009, 04:58 PM
are we still waiting for toxocology to come back?

Lexington
01-16-2009, 05:25 PM
I voted smothered as first choice. Strangulation is also possible, but not mentioned. I think it was done in a fit of rage and for spite. In the jail visitation videos, her eyes and voice are so creepy, I find it hard to look at or listen to her. Yuk.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 05:42 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

fla*mom
01-16-2009, 05:44 PM
sedatives and Chloroform
next would be smothering.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 06:07 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

As I've posted ad infinitum, not only possible... IMO probable. It has long been my theory as well that this is likely why there is a mutually shared secrecy because there may be mutually shared responsibility. JMO2!!

Forensic fan
01-16-2009, 06:12 PM
[COLOR="SeaGreen" Unless you have something you'd like to get off your conscience lol (J/K!) JMO[/COLOR]
:)

Nope, I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it and they can't prove a thing! ( I think that is what Bart Simpson used to say) :crazy:

TxMother67
01-16-2009, 06:12 PM
sedatives and Chloroform
next would be smothering.


Chloroform then smothered

It's Not the Nanny
01-16-2009, 06:13 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:


That's a good theory!

bogeygal
01-16-2009, 06:14 PM
sedatives and Chloroform
next would be smothering.

Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental. :confused:

Lovejac
01-16-2009, 06:18 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

No groans from me! Your explanation covers all these odd behaviors of G & A. I think this is very possible.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 06:20 PM
As I've posted ad infinitum, not only possible... IMO probable. It has long been my theory as well that this is likely why there is a mutually shared secrecy because there is mutually shared blame. JMO2!!

Telling words Kiki, "Casey would never HARM Caylee"

suspicious1
01-16-2009, 06:23 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

I never thought about that but it is very possible. Maybe KC feels she did not kill Caylee because CA was the one who left the ladder out, therefore blaming CA and not herself. Not "mom made me do it" but "mom did this, she is the one who left the ladder out." In one of the jailhouse tapes KC says "IT"S NOT MY FAULT!" and CA says "well whose fault is it? You're blaming ME that you're sitting in jail?"

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 06:38 PM
I never thought about that but it is very possible. Maybe KC feels she did not kill Caylee because CA was the one who left the ladder out, therefore blaming CA and not herself. Not "mom made me do it" but "mom did this, she is the one who left the ladder out." In one of the jailhouse tapes KC says "IT"S NOT MY FAULT!" and CA says "well whose fault is it? You're blaming ME that you're sitting in jail?"

Good Point!! KC was not ready to explain, was not gulity, she was a victim of circumstance only! Her only crime was the coverup... and I have this strong feeling, that given her arrogance, KC felt Caylee was hers, and she would decide what necessary steps had to be taken. Just thinking out loud?

kathyn2
01-16-2009, 06:40 PM
I think she drugged her (chloroform) and smothered her or choked her so I didn't vote. I also think she did it on purpose.

kathyn2
01-16-2009, 06:42 PM
I think KC did use the pool too but not to kill her. To pretend she drowned in it but then thought better of that idea for some reason and took her out again. No way did she accidently die in there. Perhaps she chloroformed her and then dumped her in the pool to kill her since she was knocked out cold. What a vile human being she is!

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 06:45 PM
Telling words Kiki, "Casey would never HARM Caylee"

Yes. Perhaps should add that where my theory may have differed somewhat is that I've never thought it was a spoken thing, but long said in this scenario there likely would've been some sort of silent or implicit understanding between them... This family seems to operate in secrecy. And I've posted that whereas CA may have realized she neglected to replace the ladder, it also obviously fell to whomever was home ultimately to serve as the "barrier" (in the absence of any real ones) and KC was also undoubtedly warned and instructed many times about checking b4 allowing Caylee into the backyard. CA early on dismissed the possibility of a drowning which I found strange. Then, during latest jailhouse video where she makes a cursory mention (re LE or media speculating about a drowning) it's almost in passing--then is just as swiftly, glibly, cooly shot down by her smiling daughter, (Surprise, surprise...") Because they each may bear guilt or feel partially to blame, it would follow that neither can point a finger at the other w/out to some extent implicating herself. JMO

Who_What_When
01-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental. :confused:

I don't know. I still lean more toward it being an accident. To me, her actions afterwards just don't add up to it being intentional. If she was planning this all along I would think that she would have had everything all thought out but she acted as if she was just winging it and let it play out as if she knew that she would eventually have to answer to it. Did she really think that this would go on forever and that she wouldn't eventually have to produce Caylee?

When she stole the checks from Amy how was she planning to explain to that? She had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name on the checks. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter.

As for the searches, I admit this is one thing that makes me wonder if it was intentional, but then again, this could be explainable. The documents don't show what led to these searches (on her computer) which I think is crucial in determining her mind set at the time. She could have been searching chloroform because of the picture that (Tony?) had. What if she didn't know what chloroform was and searched it, which led to how it's made, etc. The shovel never made sense to me as I can’t see why anyone would perform a search for a shovel even if they killed someone. As for the neck breaking, I have a hard time thinking of any plausible reason to search that, but it would really be helpful to see what led to each search. JMO

Who_What_When
01-16-2009, 06:57 PM
Good Point!! KC was not ready to explain, was not gulity, she was a victim of circumstance only! Her only crime was the coverup... and I have this strong feeling, that given her arrogance, KC felt Caylee was hers, and she would decide what necessary steps had to be taken. Just thinking out loud?

Good points!

Who_What_When
01-16-2009, 07:01 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

This could be possible and it would make a lot of sense, but if it happened this way, then why would Cindy call 911 thirty one days later? Her call doesn't seem staged and actually seems to indicate Casey. :confused:

Kat
01-16-2009, 07:06 PM
I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

reeseeva
01-16-2009, 08:08 PM
This could be possible and it would make a lot of sense, but if it happened this way, then why would Cindy call 911 thirty one days later? Her call doesn't seem staged and actually seems to indicate Casey. :confused:

IIRC, Cindy noted the ladder to the pool being attached, as well as the pool's chemical box being moved on June 17th, & recall reading in the latest Docs., that she called George, yelling at him. He told her he hadn't put up the ladder. This was early on, & they thought nothing of it. After CA's 911 call & KC's arrest on July 16th, they were trying to put the pieces together & remembered that date. Cindy had no idea when she called 911, there was any connection.

Of course, this is just a theory, but with all the confusion on June 15th, big blow-out, not accepting KC's call the next day, the 16th, she would be so worked up & not notice that maybe the ladder was never taken away on Sunday, June 15th, when She went swimming with Caylee.

Who_What_When
01-16-2009, 08:16 PM
IIRC, Cindy noted the ladder to the pool being attached, as well as the pool's chemical box being moved on June 17th, & recall reading in the latest Docs., that she called George, yelling at him. He told her he hadn't put up the ladder. This was early on, & they thought nothing of it. After CA's 911 call & KC's arrest on July 16th, they were trying to put the pieces together & remembered that date. Cindy had no idea when she called 911, there was any connection.

Of course, this is just a theory, but with all the confusion on June 15th, big blow-out, not accepting KC's call the next day, the 16th, she would be so worked up & not notice that maybe the ladder was never taken away on Sunday, June 15th, when She went swimming with Caylee.


I wasn't thinking about her not knowing when she called. I thought you meant that she knew what happened back in June. Sorry! Now I understand :) It's definetly is something to think about and would explain some of CA's actions.

I just don't know if I buy that Cindy or George were involved, to me their jailhouse videos with Caylee seem like they don't believe her and are really searching for answers (although they would never admit her guilt, IMO).

archenemy toenail
01-16-2009, 08:39 PM
I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

I have always interpreted her blog post in that way, also. To me it always sounded like Casey was marveling at her own power to give and take away and the loneliness created by possessing such power. The blog post by Cindy also says something along the lines of Caylee being "taken away" from her out of jealousy, so I wonder if those were the words that were used by Cindy when texting and calling Casey after the 15th. I imagine that Cindy was accusing Casey of taking Caylee away from her, and perhaps even during the fight on the 15th Cindy threatened to take Caylee away from Casey, using those words.

My theory is that Casey killed Caylee in a fit of rage that night, whether with chloroform or by smothering or whatever, I don't know, but I believe that this was a crime of passion, and I think that her reckless behavior afterward and failure to convincingly cover up the crime was one part due to her general laziness and disorganization, one part last hurrah, and one part a desire for her parents to know what she did and feel her power. I think that she continues to lie because her narcissistic ego won't allow her to humiliate herself by telling LE or anyone else what they want to hear and because she still holds out hope of getting away with this (though maybe a part of her doesn't even actually care what happens from here on out). After watching the new jail video last night, I think she's getting a real kick out of watching her parents be torn between the obvious truth (that their daughter killed their granddaughter) and their continued support is making her power high last so much longer.

Anyway, this is my first post, hi, and I've rambled longer than I intended to. My point is that I think she's torn between saving herself and wanting her parents, and everyone else, to know what she did, and I base that basically on my interpretation of that one blog post.

Asker
01-16-2009, 09:02 PM
This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.


I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 10:26 PM
As for the searches, I admit this is one thing that makes me wonder if it was intentional, but then again, this could be explainable. The documents don't show what led to these searches (on her computer) which I think is crucial in determining her mind set at the time. She could have been searching chloroform because of the picture that (Tony?) had. What if she didn't know what chloroform was and searched it, which led to how it's made, etc. The shovel never made sense to me as I can’t see why anyone would perform a search for a shovel even if they killed someone. As for the neck breaking, I have a hard time thinking of any plausible reason to search that, but it would really be helpful to see what led to each search. JMO

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) ITA w bolded!

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words) KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

Yes I posted re this and the fact there might be shared silence ie both equally willing to avoid blaming or avoid pointing the finger at the other--if there was shared responsibility. JMO

kiki the parrot
01-16-2009, 10:47 PM
I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

Re bolded, the family dynamic here is in perfect keeping then w pathological narcissism which is actually said to develop as a result of the combination of both parenting extremes--the excusing, enabling, excessive coddling and permissiveness we clearly see along with harsh, critical or generally unpredictable, parent-, versus child-centered, parenting--which fits what we know to a tee. Re "Keep Away" though, it does not follow that KC would then destroy her own leveraging power, her "meal ticket," "bargaining chip" and only "pawn." Often the truth is even simpler than we're inclined to make it. The self-absorption, selfish priorities etc characteristic of a pathological narcissist would naturally manifest in the inattentitiveness, neglect and poor supervision which by themselves are easily capable of causing the death of a toddler--especially in a home w a swimming pool. No planning nor even intent required. JMO

armywife210
01-16-2009, 10:54 PM
Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental. :confused:

EXACTLY. True, if you look at my computer at this point you will see that I have done a lot of crazy research on a lot of crazy things... but to look up specifically "how to make chloroform".... only to have it found in the trunk of your car a short time later after your daughter comes up "missing"... of course, the chloroform traces are accompanied by a hair proven to be that of your daughter... complete with a death band... that's outside the box of coincidence. As is a search on "neck breaking" shortly before your daughters "abduction". So on and so forth. It just seems that the coincidences are entirely too stacked to be coincidences.

I think it was preplanned. It may be something she was thinking about on and off. Maybe in the beginning it was just a "pretend time" thought at first. I think she began to take that thought more seriously as her mom began to come down on her about taking her role as a parent more seriously. KC may not have planned to do it THAT NIGHT, but she had definately thought about doing it.

Why was it done so sloppily then, as if it wasn't preplanned?
I have serious suspicions that ADHD is one of KC's many issues. I see it in so many of her actions. Those with ADHD do not think things through. They fantasize. Only to the "climactic" point, and shortly after, of that fantasy. They don't have the ability to think about how they will get away with what they'll do, the consequences of what they'll do. They truely do just play it all out as it comes.
I have ADHD, as many people do. I also work with kids that have ADHD, teaching them how to cope and thrive with it. I know how we think, and that enables me to do what I do.
I think ADHD does play a part in the makeup of KC. Geez, just the whole "i'm not pregnant" thing points to ADHD. How in the world did she think she would get away with that? She didn't have the ability to think it through to that point.
This does NOT, in any way, condone ANYTHING she has done in my mind. But it would explain why I think she was so sloppy.

FightTheOstrich
01-16-2009, 11:02 PM
After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror:eek: for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy:eek: who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??:confused:

I like it. Would explain a lot.

Themis
01-16-2009, 11:09 PM
Sunday, June 15, 2008 Afternoon

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=33828&type=sigpic&dateline=1219938816

Then a huge domestic argument/fight at the Anthony home late afternoon/evening of June 15, 2008.

Casey's anger
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=34164&type=sigpic&dateline=1232079067

A 2 year old would probably have been distressed by the argument/fight.


A very distressed Caylee
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/Caylee_Is_Missing/2797878700_ec611102c1_m-1.jpg

These photos are not necessarily all taken on June 15, 2008, but the emotional sequencing adds to understanding what probably happened to Caylee, why and about when it happened. This is the emotional foundation. Then add the chloroform, control issues, lack of funds for another solution like an apartment, huge confrontations, a deep history of lying, computer research, a duct taped mouth and more and all the little clues come together to tell the story.

seekjustice
01-16-2009, 11:42 PM
I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.


I've been struggling over KC's reaction here. Is she...

a. referencing the the fact that media is sugesting Caylee is dead?
b. did she know it was only a matter of time before someone realized Caylee drowned?

The look in her eye for a split second is almost a "gotcha", "you've been found out" kind of moment.

ETA: I cannot reconcile a drowning with LE's belief that Caylee's death was intentional and a Grand Jury ruling of Murder 1. I still don't buy pre-meditated at this point but in my mind accidental went out the window a long time ago...jmo
Only problem is I've never believed Caylee drowned...never...I just don't know though.

seekjustice
01-16-2009, 11:45 PM
Sunday, June 15, 2008 Afternoon

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=33828&type=sigpic&dateline=1219938816

Then a huge domestic argument/fight at the Anthony home late afternoon/evening of June 15, 2008.

Casey's anger
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image.php?u=34164&type=sigpic&dateline=1232079067

A 2 year old would probably have been distressed by the argument/fight.


A very distressed Caylee
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/Caylee_Is_Missing/2797878700_ec611102c1_m-1.jpg

These photos are not necessarily all taken on June 15, 2008, but the emotional sequencing adds to understanding what probably happened to Caylee, why and about when it happened. This is the emotional foundation. Then add the chloroform, control issues, lack of funds for another solution like an apartment, huge confrontations, a deep history of lying, computer research, a duct taped mouth and more and all the little clues come together to tell the story.

It's unbelievably difficult to see that last photo, it gives you a look into what Caylee's final moment could have looked like.

Themis
01-16-2009, 11:50 PM
It's unbelievably difficult to see that last photo, it gives you a look into what Caylee's final moment could have looked like.
I know.

seekjustice
01-16-2009, 11:51 PM
(respectfully snipped, bold mine) ITA w bolded!



Yes I posted re this and the fact there might be shared silence ie both equally willing to avoid blaming or avoid pointing the finger at the other--if there was shared responsibility. JMO

bolded by me

IMO Casey is just sick enough that she would enjoy leading Cindy to believe it was her fault Caylee died.

cuppy199
01-17-2009, 12:23 AM
I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

I think you have KC down to a tee:) This could of been very possible:)

txsvicki
01-17-2009, 01:28 AM
I voted sedatives, chloroform, and final smothering in the trunk of the car. I think there were lots of arguments over money and thefts the previous three months and Casey already had a plan as evidenced by the computer searches. Casey knew she would be caught stealing the grandma's money so she probably already had her plan which would take the focus off her thefts and return her to a victim status with a missing child. Someone will have to prove to me that Casey regularly drugged Caylee or that she only used tape to quiet a crying child. I believe she had it ready to use after drugging a child at snack time around the time George left. I think she drugged her, got her to sleep, used the chloroform and duct tape, put a bag over her head, wrapped her in a sheet or blanket, and put her in the trunk to die. I probably have wishful thinking though in hoping that she at least allowed her child to go to sleep before doing all the rest.

Forensic fan
01-17-2009, 10:44 AM
I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.


I agree, I thought that was very telling when she said that. So if that is what happened, WHY in heck won't anybody say anything??? I would much rather face public embarrassment than sit in prison.

reeseeva
01-17-2009, 10:54 AM
I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

First impressions of mine, when she said "surprise, surprise" is when someone is telling you, what they think is New information, & your response would be surprise, surprise", a sarcastic remark, to what is already Known!:eek:

Forensic fan
01-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Anyway, this is my first post, hi, and I've rambled longer than I intended to. My point is that I think she's torn between saving herself and wanting her parents, and everyone else, to know what she did, and I base that basically on my interpretation of that one blog post.

:Welcome-12-june: Hi, Welcome if nobody else has yet, that was a good first post.

Indigo
01-17-2009, 12:10 PM
I agree, I thought that was very telling when she said that. So if that is what happened, WHY in heck won't anybody say anything??? I would much rather face public embarrassment than sit in prison.

ITA. Which would be more shameful, mistakenly leaving a pool ladder up and an accidental drowning OR being convicted of murdering your child and LWOP?

It makes no sense with everything at stake here, that they would not own up to an accident. IMO, that means there was no accident.

Zuckerschnecke
01-17-2009, 12:16 PM
ITA. Which would be more shameful, mistakenly leaving a pool ladder up and an accidental drowning OR being convicted of murdering your child and LWOP?

It makes no sense with everything at stake here, that they would not own up to an accident. IMO, that means there was no accident.

Completely agree. If it was an accident, what better way to get pity from everyone. This was no accident. Too much points to premeditation although I don't think the plan when the way she wanted it to because it went down quickly after the alleged big fight.

BuffaloPI
01-17-2009, 12:20 PM
I'm still thinking night of the 15th for time of death - after the big fight.

I think Casey carries screaming Caylee into the car and drives off. Caylee keeps screaming and screaming. Casey screaming back at her to shut up, but Caylee won't. Casy catches sight of the roll of duct tape from the no-clothes party, pulls over and furiously winds the tape around Caylee's mouth and head.

Then I think a strange calm falls over Casey. She reaches back, covers Caylee's nose for a moment, and its done. She romantisizes the new life ahead of her, free of her parents, free of her unwanted daughter, and drives home feeling elated. Just a few more days and she'll be moving in with her new boyfriend, sever ties with her family under the pretext of anger from the argument, and tell the boyfriend Caylee stayed with the family.

The next morning, locked in her room, Casey "talks" to Caylee all morning, and then walks right past GA with a "napping" Caylee in her arms later on. The flurry of calls over the next day or two is her telling her parents she's moving out on her own. She drags Caylee around the backyard a couple of times before finally depositing the bag in her "special place" in the woods nearby. She'll be back for the body later to hide it more thoroughly, once she can scout out a better location.

Just my theory...probably completely wrong! We may never know...

Kat
01-17-2009, 12:22 PM
I wonder to what KC's "surprise surprise" comment was to? The reference to a drowning? Or a reference to Caylee being dead?

It's been speculated that KC killed Caylee to get back at CA(psychological aspect). IF she was saying to CA "surprise surprise" in response to the Caylee is dead comment, then this young lady is a more hateful person than I have ever encountered myself.

The reason this comment jumped out at me is that it appears to me, that KC likes word play and games (the play and games only making sense in her mind). She likes to think she's smarter and more clever than anyone else? I don't know, just my two cents.

jennyb
01-17-2009, 12:27 PM
I think the *surprise surprise* comment was her being a wiseass. Oh, someone thinks Caylee drowned in the pool -- people are coming up with "crazy theories" -- they don't have anything else to do (rolling eyes) they need to get a life... LOSERS. Like that.

Sick, sick, sick woman. Sick, sick, sick family.

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 12:42 PM
There remains 4 broad theories of "What Happened to Caylee":

1. KC killed Caylee following a plan she had (at least partially) planned for some time.

2. Caylee was killed "accidentally" from an overdose/mishap involving sedative/chloroform. That is neither a genuine accident, nor a planned out event.

3. KC was killed as a result of some accident, with KC's lack of care being a magor contributing factor.

4. KC, generally angry about her situation, specifically the flare up with Cindy, killed Caylee in a "spur of the moment" outburst.
__________________
Whichever turns out to be the most correct I find it almost unbelievable that within hours Casey was able to at least appear to be happy and carefree? Whether by her deliberate hand of not, her daughter was DEAD. She had a corpse to deal with, probably in her nearby car.
Evil certainly, but something way beyond that. Outside my universe?

ibyoungr
01-17-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm still thinking night of the 15th for time of death - after the big fight.

I think Casey carries screaming Caylee into the car and drives off. Caylee keeps screaming and screaming. Casey screaming back at her to shut up, but Caylee won't. Casy catches sight of the roll of duct tape from the no-clothes party, pulls over and furiously winds the tape around Caylee's mouth and head.

Then I think a strange calm falls over Casey. She reaches back, covers Caylee's nose for a moment, and its done. She romantisizes the new life ahead of her, free of her parents, free of her unwanted daughter, and drives home feeling elated. Just a few more days and she'll be moving in with her new boyfriend, sever ties with her family under the pretext of anger from the argument, and tell the boyfriend Caylee stayed with the family.

The next morning, locked in her room, Casey "talks" to Caylee all morning, and then walks right past GA with a "napping" Caylee in her arms later on. The flurry of calls over the next day or two is her telling her parents she's moving out on her own. She drags Caylee around the backyard a couple of times before finally depositing the bag in her "special place" in the woods nearby. She'll be back for the body later to hide it more thoroughly, once she can scout out a better location.

Just my theory...probably completely wrong! We may never know...

What about rigor mortis and the fact that a sleeping Caylee would have been a bit "blue"? Do you know what a dead body might appear to look like after a few hours?

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 01:59 PM
What about rigor mortis and the fact that a sleeping Caylee would have been a bit "blue"? Do you know what a dead body might appear to look like after a few hours?
If GA is telling the truth KC and Caylee had to walk within inches of him on their way out. He describes KC stopping long enough to have a brief conversation and says the farewell included "hugs and kisses" So not KC rushing past with a dead Caylee.

debs
01-17-2009, 02:11 PM
What about rigor mortis and the fact that a sleeping Caylee would have been a bit "blue"? Do you know what a dead body might appear to look like after a few hours?

Not to mention the duct tape that Buffalo theorizes Casey put on Caylee the night before. Hard to fake that, walking past good ol' George.

ibyoungr
01-17-2009, 02:45 PM
As Hercule pointed out above..
Either it is premeditated or Accident/Outburst

Now.. I have one question.. if this girl can not even plan on getting gas into the car before it runs out..
How in the heck is she capable of PREMEDITATED murder??

(not like the tank doesn't get below half and YOU CAN SEE IT IS CLOSE TO EMPTY and it is just as easy to keep it ABOVE half as BELOW the half mark)
It is one thing to run out of gas once.... but EVERY WEEK? If she was so capable and had any forethought..and lets say her tank was a 15 gallon tank and she puts 5 gallons in it from George's cans. The car got at least 20 miles to the gallon.. then she should be able to go 100 miles. If the gauge was broken.. then WHY did she not look at her mileage????

If she was about to commit a PREMEDITATED murder since March when she looked up chloroform.... then you would think with the money (the CASH she stole from Amy's pocket - and lied about saying AH walked in her sleep) SHE WOULD HAVE PUT GAS IN HER CAR. Because if this was premediated SINCE MARCH she would have made sure she had a full tank! Why risk running out of gas?

This is IMPORTANT. If she would have not ran out of gas and left the car at Amscot.. Cindy would not have went looking for Casey when she did. This WHOLE CASE might not have blown up in July. It may have been August or September!

Now lets say.. the smell was getting bad...and this whole thing was PREMEDITATED. She could have taken enough money she got from AH's bank account and took a plane to California to Mark Hawkins and just left the car at the airport. Then called Cindy and said.. that's it.. I've moved outta state and I have taken Caylee with me. You will never see us again.

Premeditation did not happen. JMHO

Accident? Left in car in garage.. or Caylee getting into the pool... POSSIBLE.. Outburst... suffocation on June 16 between 3 and 4. POSSIBLE.
Overdose of Benaydrl or something anything besides chloroform... POSSIBLE

Chloroform... easily explained by the body fluids, possible pool water and Cindy's cleaning job! (until they find chloroform in the house or other locations I will not believe she was chloroforming Caylee)

The more I process this.. I may sway from suffocation to leaving Caylee in the car in the garage while she was busy on the phone. (see JWG's post)

Why did she go ahead and party and live it up if it was an accident?

Because... Caylee was hers and she took care of that 10 minute problem. She shut down emotionally and created a story in her head.... she needed to go on and live her life as she was doing so that people would not think she killed her daughter. She thought she could lie her way out of this like everything else.

She was mad as hell on the video that was just released... because she wanted the ONE MORE DAY to "fix" this. She was mad because she wanted to tell Cindy about the accident but Cindy called the police and
once she was hauled in.. game over... she no longer could talk. "You have the right to remain silent" JB is making sure she stayed silent.
She was mad because NOW Cindy is coming to the jail to ask what happened to Caylee. Cindy wants to know What happened? NOW?.. when Casey gave her a chance before she called the police? (this is just how I think Casey thinks)

ibyoungr
01-17-2009, 02:51 PM
If GA is telling the truth KC and Caylee had to walk within inches of him on their way out. He describes KC stopping long enough to have a brief conversation and says the farewell included "hugs and kisses" So not KC rushing past with a dead Caylee.

I agree. In my mind, I just do not think Caylee died in the night in that house or in the car and brought back to the house. She could not have carried out a sleeping Caylee.. that actually died hours before because of the state the body would be in. Then you take into account that George supposedly spoke to them.

Do we know for sure Casey left the house after the argument?

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 02:54 PM
[/B]

bolded by me

IMO Casey is just sick enough that she would enjoy leading Cindy to believe it was her fault Caylee died.

Not if on some level KC recognized she, too, would be considered in any way culpable. JMO

ITA. Which would be more shameful, mistakenly leaving a pool ladder up and an accidental drowning OR being convicted of murdering your child and LWOP?

It makes no sense with everything at stake here, that they would not own up to an accident. IMO, that means there was no accident.

Which is oddly also perhaps the most convincing proof IMO it was not deliberate, but rather negligence responsible. Otherwise KC would no doubt have feigned just such a (far more believable) "accidental" scenario. No KC is refusing to accept any responsibility whatsoever, even in the face of death, because it isn't LE or FL murder indictment nor sentence about which KC's apparently most concerned. Her most important goal, it would seem, is maintaining the front w CA that she had no involvement whatsoever ("You don't know what my involvement is Mom?") and that she continues to be perceived by her mother as another blameless "victim." So far, so good! JMO

It's Not the Nanny
01-17-2009, 02:54 PM
As Hercule pointed out above..
Either it is premeditated or Accident/Outburst

Now.. I have one question.. if this girl can not even plan on getting gas into the car before it runs out..
How in the heck is she capable of PREMEDITATED murder??

(not like the tank doesn't get below half and YOU CAN SEE IT IS CLOSE TO EMPTY and it is just as easy to keep it ABOVE half as BELOW the half mark)
It is one thing to run out of gas once.... but EVERY WEEK? If she was so capable and had any forethought..and lets say her tank was a 15 gallon tank and she puts 5 gallons in it from George's cans. The car got at least 20 miles to the gallon.. then she should be able to go 100 miles. If the gauge was broken.. then WHY did she not look at her mileage????

If she was about to commit a PREMEDITATED murder since March when she looked up chloroform.... then you would think with the money (the CASH she stole from Amy's pocket - and lied about saying AH walked in her sleep) SHE WOULD HAVE PUT GAS IN HER CAR. Because if this was premediated SINCE MARCH she would have made sure she had a full tank! Why risk running out of gas?

This is IMPORTANT. If she would have not ran out of gas and left the car at Amscot.. Cindy would not have went looking for Casey when she did. This WHOLE CASE might not have blown up in July. It may have been August or September!

Now lets say.. the smell was getting bad...and this whole thing was PREMEDITATED. She could have taken enough money she got from AH's bank account and took a plane to California to Mark Hawkins and just left the car at the airport. Then called Cindy and said.. that's it.. I've moved outta state and I have taken Caylee with me. You will never see us again.

Premeditation did not happen. JMHO

Accident? Left in car in garage.. or Caylee getting into the pool... POSSIBLE.. Outburst... suffocation on June 16 between 3 and 4. POSSIBLE.
Overdose of Benaydrl or something anything besides chloroform... POSSIBLE

Chloroform... easily explained by the body fluids, possible pool water and Cindy's cleaning job! (until they find chloroform in the house or other locations I will not believe she was chloroforming Caylee)

The more I process this.. I may sway from suffocation to leaving Caylee in the car in the garage while she was busy on the phone. (see JWG's post)

Why did she go ahead and party and live it up if it was an accident?

Because... Caylee was hers and she took care of that 10 minute problem. She shut down emotionally and created a story in her head.... she needed to go on and live her life as she was doing so that people would not think she killed her daughter. She thought she could lie her way out of this like everything else.

She was mad as hell on the video that was just released... because she wanted the ONE MORE DAY to "fix" this. She was mad because she wanted to tell Cindy about the accident but Cindy called the police and
once she was hauled in.. game over... she no longer could talk. "You have the right to remain silent" JB is making sure she stayed silent.
She was mad because NOW Cindy is coming to the jail to ask what happened to Caylee. Cindy wants to know What happened? NOW?.. when Casey gave her a chance before she called the police? (this is just how I think Casey thinks)


FWIW, I think Casey only really ran out of gas once when TonE had to come and save her.

I think several of us here believe she ran her car out of gas on purpose and ditched it at Amscott so she didn't have to drive TonE to the airport in her stinky car and she would be able to drive his while he was in NY. I think she sat at Amscott and ran it out and then called TonE!

ibyoungr
01-17-2009, 03:06 PM
FWIW, I think Casey only really ran out of gas once when TonE had to come and save her.

I think several of us here believe she ran her car out of gas on purpose and ditched it at Amscott so she didn't have to drive TonE to the airport in her stinky car and she would be able to drive his while he was in NY. I think she sat at Amscott and ran it out and then called TonE!

It is a possibilty she let it run out of gas.. on purpose. But I would have to look at the distance and ping maps to see how long she could have gotten by on 5 gallons of gas that TonE helped her put in the week before.

I thought she told TonE that the car had a mechanical problem and her dad would fix it. She did tell Amy that it ran out of gas an IIRC and they went and bought a gas can at target...
This all just shows how she looked at things 10 minutes at a time.

If this was premeditated.... she could have just drove it in a lake and told TonE is was in the shop.
(not like they did not find a car in the lake by the Anthony's)


The catalyst to this blowing up in her face.. was the car being towed from Amscot.

If this was a premeditated murder plan SINCE MARCH she would have done a better job getting rid of the car. If she had gotten rid of the car better, how much longer before Cindy would have come tracking her down? It was already a month....

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 03:13 PM
FWIW, I think Casey only really ran out of gas once when TonE had to come and save her.

I think several of us here believe she ran her car out of gas on purpose and ditched it at Amscott so she didn't have to drive TonE to the airport in her stinky car and she would be able to drive his while he was in NY. I think she sat at Amscott and ran it out and then called TonE!
Don't ask me to find a reference. I THINK there was mention of running out of gas being common for KC. I agree she parked the car at Amscot. Right near a dumpster as a cover for the smell.

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 03:16 PM
I don't think premeditated makes much sense at all. Certainly no plan to deal with a body, and stuffed about for days with a decomposing body. No plan to get away herself.

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 03:23 PM
I have said before I don't think it was an accident either. An accident of any kind would be a God send for KC. A chance to show her number one skill set!!! Lying and spinning and blaming others! She'd have had a field day playing the grieving Mom who tried to revive her child. A swimming Pool accident would have been G &C fault for leaving the ladder etc. Overcome by car fumes would have been GA fault for not fixing her car when he promised etc etc etc
IMO KC simply lost her temper. We saw what that looks like in the video yesterday.
The coming and going from the house was all about trying to Fake an accident. An accident would have suited KC that is not what happened.

ibyoungr
01-17-2009, 03:41 PM
I have said before I don't think it was an accident either. An accident of any kind would be a God send for KC. A chance to show her number one skill set!!! Lying and spinning and blaming others! She'd have had a field day playing the grieving Mom who tried to revive her child. A swimming Pool accident would have been G &C fault for leaving the ladder etc. Overcome by car fumes would have been GA fault for not fixing her car when he promised etc etc etc
IMO KC simply lost her temper. We saw what that looks like in the video yesterday.
The coming and going from the house was all about trying to Fake an accident. An accident would have suited KC that is not what happened.

Posted on the Motives thread...
...respectively snipped....and bolded by me below....
---Quote (Originally by AZlawyer)---
*The part that bothered me the most about that video (the longer, Fox Orlando, version) was actually when Casey said she didn't want to be one of those thousands of parents who live through the horrible nightmare of...WHAT? Wondering if your kidnapped child is alive or dead? Losing a child? NO!!! Living with the thought that MAKES HER SICK EVERY DAY that her child could possibly be ALIVE AND WITH SOMEONE ELSE!!!
Hmmm...in context with Cindy's threat to take custody...it's interesting that Casey's worst nightmare was not Caylee being DEAD but Caylee being ALIVE AND WITH SOMEONE ELSE. * ---End Quote---

This would keep me with my "she got angry and suffocated Caylee theory."
Coming in second.. the pure luck of an accident.
She really did not to to overdose or chloroform her.. it was regularly Caylee's nap time.
Caylee wanted something and mommy got mad.. she like we all seen in the video.

reeseeva
01-17-2009, 03:43 PM
Reading the computer searches, I came across this:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1603690/casey-anthony-computer-report

Pgs. 6 & 7 The picture of the girl hanging with the quote under is very disturbing, & the date it was created, along with the Tupac quote directly under it, which was after the July 3rd myspace writing that Cindy left, "My Caylee is Missing"

Why would she post a picture like this??:confused:

The Tupac quote under it seems like an answer to the picture??

Does there seem to be a direct correlation here??:waitasec:

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 04:18 PM
Completely agree. If it was an accident, what better way to get pity from everyone. This was no accident. Too much points to premeditation although I don't think the plan when the way she wanted it to because it went down quickly after the alleged big fight.

I think Casey is the type of person who "can't be wrong". In her own sick twisted mind she feels she has too much pride to admit to doing something even if it was an accident. I think she is too self righteous and smug and sees pity as a weakness. Although she craves attention from anyone and everyone, I don't see her as a person who would accept pity from anyone, except maybe her family.

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 04:19 PM
I think the *surprise surprise* comment was her being a wiseass. Oh, someone thinks Caylee drowned in the pool -- people are coming up with "crazy theories" -- they don't have anything else to do (rolling eyes) they need to get a life... LOSERS. Like that.

Sick, sick, sick woman. Sick, sick, sick family.

I agree.

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 04:23 PM
Like I said. If an accident happened she would blame everybody else but herself.

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 04:26 PM
As Hercule pointed out above..
Either it is premeditated or Accident/Outburst

Now.. I have one question.. if this girl can not even plan on getting gas into the car before it runs out..
How in the heck is she capable of PREMEDITATED murder??

(not like the tank doesn't get below half and YOU CAN SEE IT IS CLOSE TO EMPTY and it is just as easy to keep it ABOVE half as BELOW the half mark)
It is one thing to run out of gas once.... but EVERY WEEK? If she was so capable and had any forethought..and lets say her tank was a 15 gallon tank and she puts 5 gallons in it from George's cans. The car got at least 20 miles to the gallon.. then she should be able to go 100 miles. If the gauge was broken.. then WHY did she not look at her mileage????

If she was about to commit a PREMEDITATED murder since March when she looked up chloroform.... then you would think with the money (the CASH she stole from Amy's pocket - and lied about saying AH walked in her sleep) SHE WOULD HAVE PUT GAS IN HER CAR. Because if this was premediated SINCE MARCH she would have made sure she had a full tank! Why risk running out of gas?

This is IMPORTANT. If she would have not ran out of gas and left the car at Amscot.. Cindy would not have went looking for Casey when she did. This WHOLE CASE might not have blown up in July. It may have been August or September!

Now lets say.. the smell was getting bad...and this whole thing was PREMEDITATED. She could have taken enough money she got from AH's bank account and took a plane to California to Mark Hawkins and just left the car at the airport. Then called Cindy and said.. that's it.. I've moved outta state and I have taken Caylee with me. You will never see us again.

Premeditation did not happen. JMHO

Accident? Left in car in garage.. or Caylee getting into the pool... POSSIBLE.. Outburst... suffocation on June 16 between 3 and 4. POSSIBLE.
Overdose of Benaydrl or something anything besides chloroform... POSSIBLE

Chloroform... easily explained by the body fluids, possible pool water and Cindy's cleaning job! (until they find chloroform in the house or other locations I will not believe she was chloroforming Caylee)

The more I process this.. I may sway from suffocation to leaving Caylee in the car in the garage while she was busy on the phone. (see JWG's post)

Why did she go ahead and party and live it up if it was an accident?

Because... Caylee was hers and she took care of that 10 minute problem. She shut down emotionally and created a story in her head.... she needed to go on and live her life as she was doing so that people would not think she killed her daughter. She thought she could lie her way out of this like everything else.

She was mad as hell on the video that was just released... because she wanted the ONE MORE DAY to "fix" this. She was mad because she wanted to tell Cindy about the accident but Cindy called the police and
once she was hauled in.. game over... she no longer could talk. "You have the right to remain silent" JB is making sure she stayed silent.
She was mad because NOW Cindy is coming to the jail to ask what happened to Caylee. Cindy wants to know What happened? NOW?.. when Casey gave her a chance before she called the police? (this is just how I think Casey thinks)

Interesting post. I have wondered all along why she wouldn't have just left. She could have come up with a million stories better than the nanny one. She could have told her parents she got a new job, met a new guy, etc., With Casey's history this wouldn't have appeared unusual.

reeseeva
01-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Reading the computer searches, I came across this:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1603690/casey-anthony-computer-report

Pgs. 6 & 7 The picture of the girl hanging with the quote under is very disturbing, & the date it was created, along with the Tupac quote directly under it, which was after the July 3rd myspace writing that Cindy left, "My Caylee is Missing"

Why would she post a picture like this??:confused:

The Tupac quote under it seems like an answer to the picture??

Does there seem to be a direct correlation here??:waitasec:

The Picture

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 04:38 PM
Reading the computer searches, I came across this:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1603690/casey-anthony-computer-report

Pgs. 6 & 7 The picture of the girl hanging with the quote under is very disturbing, & the date it was created, along with the Tupac quote directly under it, which was after the July 3rd myspace writing that Cindy left, "My Caylee is Missing"

Why would she post a picture like this??:confused:

The Tupac quote under it seems like an answer to the picture??

Does there seem to be a direct correlation here??:waitasec:

Do you mean the picture that has the quote "Why do people kill people who kill people to show people that killing is bad"?

Maybe subconsciously she knew what her future held and it was her way of saying she killed Caylee without saying it.

reeseeva
01-17-2009, 05:06 PM
Do you mean the picture that has the quote "Why do people kill people who kill people to show people that killing is bad"?

Maybe subconsciously she knew what her future held and it was her way of saying she killed Caylee without saying it.

Yes, Who What When, It was the perfect poster for someone wrestling with the deed they'd done! I think she gave that quote alot of thought, as to its hypocrisy. What's interesting, is when she created it, & then the Tupac quote "You can spend minutes & hours, weeks or months over-analyzing a situation, justifying what Could've, Would've happened.......OR, you can just leave the pieces on the floor & move the f##k on! It's Casey being her own analyst, finding comforting words, for when reality seeps in!? :eek: JMO

Indigo
01-17-2009, 06:24 PM
Yes, Who What When, It was the perfect poster for someone wrestling with the deed they'd done! I think she gave that quote alot of thought, as to its hypocrisy. What's interesting, is when she created it, & then the Tupac quote "You can spend minutes & hours, weeks or months over-analyzing a situation, justifying what Could've, Would've happened.......OR, you can just leave the pieces on the floor & move the f##k on! It's Casey being her own analyst, finding comforting words, for when reality seeps in!? :eek: JMO

It is very interesting to see the things that Casey found important enough to save to her computer on those dates. The wording is very telling: Why do people kill people who kill people...

JWG
01-17-2009, 06:27 PM
If you add "Was left sleeping in car" I might vote. :wink:

Rumpole
01-17-2009, 06:43 PM
If you add "Was left sleeping in car" I might vote. :wink:
Ah,
But with your open mind that recent view might change.
I can't find a choice here to suit either. Don't think we quite have that piece of the puzzle yet.

static
01-17-2009, 08:48 PM
Running out of gas would be a great excuse for Tony to come and get her. I also believe she was on the comp or texting Tony or getting information about Tony (maybe he was seen with another girl) OMG and Caylee needed attention. HOW DARE Caylee INTERRUPT HER ! THis is sooooooooo important to kc the text, the computer, ...
I also think KC holds Cindy responsible for interrupting her PLAN. To live with Tony happily ever after. Cindy made that 911 call and blew her plan up. The sociopath that KC is, she is somehow going to blame Cindy for Caylee's death. I think she is going to completely turn on Cindy in the trial and this is the way she is going to punish her for foiling her plans with Tony.

It's Not the Nanny
01-17-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't know about the "accident' theory, guys.

Her friend Britany S reported that CA said KC had said she was going "on business" to Jacksonville for a month and was going to leave Caylee with the Nanny. And verified that CA said KC said this BEFORE she left. Obviously, KC was laying some groundwork for the fact that she was going to MIA for A MONTH! Why would she take off with Caylee for a month...no place to live, no job, no money????

Then, of course, there is her goodbye to George the morning of June 16th when she tells him she and Caylee wouldn't be coming home that night.

KC knew she was going to disappear for awhile and Caylee was not going to be around either. :(

Premeditation...which is why the Grand Jury came up with First degree murder.

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 10:25 PM
Yes, Who What When, It was the perfect poster for someone wrestling with the deed they'd done! I think she gave that quote alot of thought, as to its hypocrisy. What's interesting, is when she created it, & then the Tupac quote "You can spend minutes & hours, weeks or months over-analyzing a situation, justifying what Could've, Would've happened.......OR, you can just leave the pieces on the floor & move the f##k on! It's Casey being her own analyst, finding comforting words, for when reality seeps in!? :eek: JMO

ITA! I thought the same thing when I read the other quote. It's as if this was her way of admitting something but in a devious way. Almost as if this was her little secret that she could admit to the world and they wouldn't have an idea of the real meaning. :bang:

Who_What_When
01-17-2009, 10:29 PM
I don't know about the "accident' theory, guys.

Her friend Britany S reported that CA said KC had said she was going "on business" to Jacksonville for a month and was going to leave Caylee with the Nanny. And verified that CA said KC said this BEFORE she left. Obviously, KC was laying some groundwork for the fact that she was going to MIA for A MONTH! Why would she take off with Caylee for a month...no place to live, no job, no money????

Then, of course, there is her goodbye to George the morning of June 16th when she tells him she and Caylee wouldn't be coming home that night.

KC knew she was going to disappear for awhile and Caylee was not going to be around either. :(

murder.

I'm not sure what I believe anymore! LOL

But... :waitasec: why not steal the money which is something she would do anyway. Why not take off? Why steal a check and then sign your name when you know your going to get caught. What was her plan? Did she just think she could use the nanny story forever? She had to know that sooner or later she would answer as to where Caylee was.
Premeditation...which is why the Grand Jury came up with First degree

kiki the parrot
01-17-2009, 10:46 PM
As Hercule pointed out above..
Either it is premeditated or Accident/Outburst

Now.. I have one question.. if this girl can not even plan on getting gas into the car before it runs out..
How in the heck is she capable of PREMEDITATED murder??

(not like the tank doesn't get below half and YOU CAN SEE IT IS CLOSE TO EMPTY and it is just as easy to keep it ABOVE half as BELOW the half mark)
It is one thing to run out of gas once.... but EVERY WEEK? If she was so capable and had any forethought..and lets say her tank was a 15 gallon tank and she puts 5 gallons in it from George's cans. The car got at least 20 miles to the gallon.. then she should be able to go 100 miles. If the gauge was broken.. then WHY did she not look at her mileage????

If she was about to commit a PREMEDITATED murder since March when she looked up chloroform.... then you would think with the money (the CASH she stole from Amy's pocket - and lied about saying AH walked in her sleep) SHE WOULD HAVE PUT GAS IN HER CAR. Because if this was premediated SINCE MARCH she would have made sure she had a full tank! Why risk running out of gas?

This is IMPORTANT. If she would have not ran out of gas and left the car at Amscot.. Cindy would not have went looking for Casey when she did. This WHOLE CASE might not have blown up in July. It may have been August or September!

Now lets say.. the smell was getting bad...and this whole thing was PREMEDITATED. She could have taken enough money she got from AH's bank account and took a plane to California to Mark Hawkins and just left the car at the airport. Then called Cindy and said.. that's it.. I've moved outta state and I have taken Caylee with me. You will never see us again.

Premeditation did not happen. JMHO

Accident? Left in car in garage.. or Caylee getting into the pool... POSSIBLE.. Outburst... suffocation on June 16 between 3 and 4. POSSIBLE.
Overdose of Benaydrl or something anything besides chloroform... POSSIBLE

Chloroform... easily explained by the body fluids, possible pool water and Cindy's cleaning job! (until they find chloroform in the house or other locations I will not believe she was chloroforming Caylee)

The more I process this.. I may sway from suffocation to leaving Caylee in the car in the garage while she was busy on the phone. (see JWG's post)

Why did she go ahead and party and live it up if it was an accident?

Because... Caylee was hers and she took care of that 10 minute problem. She shut down emotionally and created a story in her head.... she needed to go on and live her life as she was doing so that people would not think she killed her daughter. She thought she could lie her way out of this like everything else.

She was mad as hell on the video that was just released... because she wanted the ONE MORE DAY to "fix" this. She was mad because she wanted to tell Cindy about the accident but Cindy called the police and
once she was hauled in.. game over... she no longer could talk. "You have the right to remain silent" JB is making sure she stayed silent.
She was mad because NOW Cindy is coming to the jail to ask what happened to Caylee. Cindy wants to know What happened? NOW?.. when Casey gave her a chance before she called the police? (this is just how I think Casey thinks)

(bold mine) Great post, very insightful. It rings 100% true to me, especially bolded. JMO

I think Casey is the type of person who "can't be wrong". In her own sick twisted mind she feels she has too much pride to admit to doing something even if it was an accident. I think she is too self righteous and smug and sees pity as a weakness. Although she craves attention from anyone and everyone, I don't see her as a person who would accept pity from anyone, except maybe her family.

ITA Couldn't have said it better. JMO

sayd
01-17-2009, 11:22 PM
Here's my theory based on everything you all have posted. I don't think she killed her with chloroform. Casey isn't that smart, and it would be dangerous to make. I agree that there was a huge fight, that's for sure. Cindy threatened custody. She probably brought up stealing the money from the Grandparents, and I also bet Caylee told Grandma Cindy things on the visit to her great grandparents about what Mommy Dearest does with her (and to her) when she was not with Grandma and Grandpa which Cindy relayed to Casey during the fight. Three year olds tell everything and a good Grandma would be furious! I agree that Casey probably used Xanax (probably supplied by Annie) to put Caylee out and that is where the term Zanny the Nanny came from. That had been going on for a long time...

I think Casey grabbed Caylee mid-fight and ran out the door with her. The duct tape was in the car, and I bet Casey, in an absolute rage, duct taped Caylee's mouth shut because she had told too much to Cindy. I think Caylee then accidentally suffocated; her nose was probably stopped up from tears and with duct tape around her mouth couldn't breathe.

I bet George or Cindy used a chloroform cleaning agent (these are very common) in massive quantities in an attempt to get the smell out. We know Cindy washed the pants and knive, and I'm sure Mr. Cleanaholic/Meticulous Detailer would have cleaned the trunk too.

The death was an accident, but how do you report an accident involving duct tape around a small child's mouth? Especially after you just got in a huge fight with your mom who said you were an unfit mother? (And yes, I do think the duct tape is not a myth as it was leaked too many times.)

jademonkey
01-18-2009, 01:04 AM
Here's my theory based on everything you all have posted. I don't think she killed her with chloroform. Casey isn't that smart, and it would be dangerous to make. I agree that there was a huge fight, that's for sure. Cindy threatened custody. She probably brought up stealing the money from the Grandparents, and I also bet Caylee told Grandma Cindy things on the visit to her great grandparents about what Mommy Dearest does with her (and to her) when she was not with Grandma and Grandpa which Cindy relayed to Casey during the fight. Three year olds tell everything and a good Grandma would be furious! I agree that Casey probably used Xanax (probably supplied by Annie) to put Caylee out and that is where the term Zanny the Nanny came from. That had been going on for a long time...

I think Casey grabbed Caylee mid-fight and ran out the door with her. The duct tape was in the car, and I bet Casey, in an absolute rage, duct taped Caylee's mouth shut because she had told too much to Cindy. I think Caylee then accidentally suffocated; her nose was probably stopped up from tears and with duct tape around her mouth couldn't breathe.

I bet George or Cindy used a chloroform cleaning agent (these are very common) in massive quantities in an attempt to get the smell out. We know Cindy washed the pants and knive, and I'm sure Mr. Cleanaholic/Meticulous Detailer would have cleaned the trunk too.

The death was an accident, but how do you report an accident involving duct tape around a small child's mouth? Especially after you just got in a huge fight with your mom who said you were an unfit mother? (And yes, I do think the duct tape is not a myth as it was leaked too many times.)



This is the best theory I have heard yet! It's simple, goes with the facts....

natsound
01-18-2009, 05:49 PM
If KC had been the one to call 911 immediately after finding her daughter dead, then I might believe it was an accident. MIGHT.

But she didn't call... she partied and cooked dinner for her boyfriend, and got a "bella vida" tattoo.

It was no accident.

natsound
01-18-2009, 05:52 PM
Here's my theory based on everything you all have posted. I don't think she killed her with chloroform. Casey isn't that smart, and it would be dangerous to make. I agree that there was a huge fight, that's for sure. Cindy threatened custody. She probably brought up stealing the money from the Grandparents, and I also bet Caylee told Grandma Cindy things on the visit to her great grandparents about what Mommy Dearest does with her (and to her) when she was not with Grandma and Grandpa which Cindy relayed to Casey during the fight. Three year olds tell everything and a good Grandma would be furious! I agree that Casey probably used Xanax (probably supplied by Annie) to put Caylee out and that is where the term Zanny the Nanny came from. That had been going on for a long time...

I think Casey grabbed Caylee mid-fight and ran out the door with her. The duct tape was in the car, and I bet Casey, in an absolute rage, duct taped Caylee's mouth shut because she had told too much to Cindy. I think Caylee then accidentally suffocated; her nose was probably stopped up from tears and with duct tape around her mouth couldn't breathe.

I bet George or Cindy used a chloroform cleaning agent (these are very common) in massive quantities in an attempt to get the smell out. We know Cindy washed the pants and knive, and I'm sure Mr. Cleanaholic/Meticulous Detailer would have cleaned the trunk too.

The death was an accident, but how do you report an accident involving duct tape around a small child's mouth? Especially after you just got in a huge fight with your mom who said you were an unfit mother? (And yes, I do think the duct tape is not a myth as it was leaked too many times.)

But if GA or CA used a chloroform cleaning agent to clean the car, that doesn't explain the chloroform searches on the compuer. It's too much of a coincidence. KC wanted to get her hands on chloroform for some reason.

Pink Panther
01-18-2009, 06:11 PM
If KC had been the one to call 911 immediately after finding her daughter dead, then I might believe it was an accident. MIGHT.

But she didn't call... she partied and cooked dinner for her boyfriend, and got a "bella vida" tattoo.

It was no accident.
She went with her boyfriend to Blockbusters just a few hours after! For crying out loud...AN ACCIDENT???

LinasK
01-19-2009, 02:57 AM
.but I just can't. Too much points to an intentional murder: the web searches, the chloroform, the not reporting her missing, the fake Nanny, the little dropped mentions of Caylee's favorite book (knowing full well that book would be found if the body was.) Too much of it indicates planning.

I think Casey planned to stage a kidnapping and had an elaborate plan in her head, and she seemed to be working on connections in California so she could leave Florida when all of this occurred. But in the heat of the moment after the fight with her mother, she acted out of despair and now she's trying to go along with the little bits and pieces of the plan she had long ago started - it's just not all falling into place the way she'd hoped.

If it was an accident, if Caylee drowned, something like that, Casey being the exemplary liar that she is, would have made something else up, blamed someone else AND played the POOR MOTHER thing to the max. Nothing would be better than that kind of sympathy. Imagine then the donations.

Maybe a juror will have more sympathy for her. I can't look at all the extenuating circumstances of this case and think that it was anything more than an ill-planned kidnapping story that got botched after the desperation created by this big fight with Cindy.

That's how I see it! I think she chloroformed Caylee, then duct taped her little mouth, so that she suffocated.

LinasK
01-19-2009, 03:14 AM
Don't ask me to find a reference. I THINK there was mention of running out of gas being common for KC. I agree she parked the car at Amscot. Right near a dumpster as a cover for the smell.
I agree with this, and probably she hoped somebody would steal the car and her purse to support the kidnapping theory.

LinasK
01-19-2009, 03:16 AM
Do you mean the picture that has the quote "Why do people kill people who kill people to show people that killing is bad"?

Maybe subconsciously she knew what her future held and it was her way of saying she killed Caylee without saying it.
Yup, Casey was convieniently Anti-Death Penalty, because she knew she'd be facing it.

Thinaire
01-19-2009, 04:01 AM
I think chloroform possibly served a dual role.

Casey may have searched it as a way to help her liberate funds from her friends of the moment...simply getting onto their rooms and lifting their loose change wasn't enough...

I would wager Amy was one of her victims.

Knock her ever more active and talkative toddler out....

Therefore, it was THERE and handy when she went into a rage....

Steely Dan
01-19-2009, 08:53 AM
I agree with this, and probably she hoped somebody would steal the car and her purse to support the kidnapping theory.

I've thought about that too but, she should have abandoned it in a high crime area. I doubt anyone would have tried to steal it with that stench in it though.

natsound
01-19-2009, 09:35 AM
Yup, Casey was convieniently Anti-Death Penalty, because she knew she'd be facing it.


Nah, KC never thought this disappearance/murder would be pinned on her.

Pattymarie
01-19-2009, 10:11 AM
Have we at all established a window of the time of day she killed her? If it was during the afternoon of June 16th....how were there no witnesses at all? In the house, through the attached garage and into the trunk?

Then when did she put her into the woods? Unseen?

Rumpole
01-19-2009, 12:56 PM
I've thought about that too but, she should have abandoned it in a high crime area. I doubt anyone would have tried to steal it with that stench in it though.
I agree leaving the purse perhaps indicates one idea was the car get stolen but she was actively trying to get Ammy to buy a gas can for her. Looks like she was trying to get the car back, but was just a day too late?

Theonly1
01-19-2009, 01:31 PM
Yes, Who What When, It was the perfect poster for someone wrestling with the deed they'd done! I think she gave that quote alot of thought, as to its hypocrisy. What's interesting, is when she created it, & then the Tupac quote "You can spend minutes & hours, weeks or months over-analyzing a situation, justifying what Could've, Would've happened.......OR, you can just leave the pieces on the floor & move the f##k on! It's Casey being her own analyst, finding comforting words, for when reality seeps in!? :eek: JMO

Yep! And (in my opinion) Casey left Caylee on the ground and moved the "f" on.

momtective
01-19-2009, 02:27 PM
This may have already been asked...sorry if it has, I haven't read the entire tread. I'm just wondering if Caylee did drown in the pool how can the prosecution prove she did not? And wouldn't that explain JB's comments that KC did not kill Caylee. If this is the case then exactly what can KC be convicted of? The burden of proof is on the State and if KC says she drowned then how can the State prove otherwise? Just asking. TIA

Lovejac
01-19-2009, 02:32 PM
This may have already been asked...sorry if it has, I haven't read the entire tread. I'm just wondering if Caylee did drown in the pool how can the prosecution prove she did not? And wouldn't that explain JB's comments that KC did not kill Caylee. If this is the case then exactly what can KC be convicted of? The burden of proof is on the State and if KC says she drowned then how can the State prove otherwise? Just asking. TIA

IMO, FWIW, even though I don't think the State can prove that Caylee did NOT drown, I feel like if casey changes her story to "accidential drowning", people on the jury would have a hard time believing, given her inability to tell the truth. Like I said, just my opinion!

Rumpole
01-19-2009, 02:40 PM
This may have already been asked...sorry if it has, I haven't read the entire tread. I'm just wondering if Caylee did drown in the pool how can the prosecution prove she did not? And wouldn't that explain JB's comments that KC did not kill Caylee. If this is the case then exactly what can KC be convicted of? The burden of proof is on the State and if KC says she drowned then how can the State prove otherwise? Just asking. TIA
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that KC did not behave as anyone would following an accidental drowning. In my view KC specifically did NOT behave how KC would behave after an accident. She seems to have wanted to be free of Caylee, and an accident would have been just what she wanted. She would have embaced that. Spun a story about everyone else being at fault -GA, CA and even Caylee herself. She could have played the greiving Mum for all it was worth.
Also we do not know what evidence was found with the remains. The duct tape if true, does not support an accidental drowning. There may well be other evidence we have not thought of.

momtective
01-19-2009, 02:51 PM
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that KC did not behave as anyone would following an accidental drowning. In my view KC specifically did NOT behave how KC would behave after an accident. She seems to have wanted to be free of Caylee, and an accident would have been just what she wanted. She would have embaced that. Spun a story about everyone else being at fault -GA, CA and even Caylee herself. She could have played the greiving Mum for all it was worth.
Also we do not know what evidence was found with the remains. The duct tape if true, does not support an accidental drowning. There may well be other evidence we have not thought of.

I couldn't agree more and I do not think Caylee drown. I was just throwing the question out there because JB is going to come up with some reason this all happened and he's going to try to spoon feed it to the jury. In my gut I have a feeling this is the direction he will go. While I agree that nothing short of cold blooded murder explains the duct tape and absolutely nothing explains KC's bizarre behavior and all of her lies. JB still has to come up with something to defend her. I wonder what it's going to be.

Rumpole
01-19-2009, 02:59 PM
I couldn't agree more and I do not think Caylee drown. I was just throwing the question out there because JB is going to come up with some reason this all happened and he's going to try to spoon feed it to the jury. In my gut I have a feeling this is the direction he will go. While I agree that nothing short of cold blooded murder explains the duct tape and absolutely nothing explains KC's bizarre behavior and all of her lies. JB still has to come up with something to defend her. I wonder what it's going to be.
The prosecution obviously thought they had a good case even without the body and attached evidence. Largely circumstantial, but in my view overwhelming when you add it all up. Now they have the remains etc on top of that.

Steely Dan
01-19-2009, 05:17 PM
I couldn't agree more and I do not think Caylee drown. I was just throwing the question out there because JB is going to come up with some reason this all happened and he's going to try to spoon feed it to the jury. In my gut I have a feeling this is the direction he will go. While I agree that nothing short of cold blooded murder explains the duct tape and absolutely nothing explains KC's bizarre behavior and all of her lies. JB still has to come up with something to defend her. I wonder what it's going to be.

Probably something extremely funny or pathetic or both. :rolleyes:

Pink Panther
01-19-2009, 06:01 PM
She's had so many chances and so much time to recant her fairytale about the "nanny" and admit to an "accident"...If she hasn't done so by now, not only does it confirm the impossibility that it was, but it also (thankfully) pretty much discounts any realistic opportunity she may have had to plead "not guilty".

I remember a few months back how we were all assuming that she was crafty and possibly intelligent. I'm relieved to see at this point, that she is not. Hahaha. And to think that the FBI was likely called in initially at her (and her family's) insistance!

MOO

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 06:34 PM
She's had so many chances and so much time to recant her fairytale about the "nanny" and admit to an "accident"...If she hasn't done so by now, not only does it confirm the impossibility that it was, but it also (thankfully) pretty much discounts any realistic opportunity she may have had to plead "not guilty".

(respectfully snipped) The only thing it confirms for me is that when KC tells a lie, she sticks to it--ie takes it around the block to Sawgrass, down the halls of Universal, into the interrogation room, thru her sworn statements, into the holding cell, down into the courthouse, out on bond, thru jailhouse family visits, and back again :rolleyes: Re NG plea, the ridiculous thing (that I've always said defies reason) is so long as she and JB stick w "ZG fairytale," refusing to admit any culpability and maintaining total innocence, this will preclude them from any possible negligence defense or plea to lesser charge--leaving jurors to convict on the worst. Obviously that's why State included lesser (aggravated child abuse, manslaughter) in anticipation of this, but it still looks like such a foolish gamble from a defense standpoint! If that's what KC is still telling JB to do tho, I guess his representation can't be found incompetent--so no mistrial. JMO!

Who_What_When
01-19-2009, 06:45 PM
She's had so many chances and so much time to recant her fairytale about the "nanny" and admit to an "accident"...If she hasn't done so by now, not only does it confirm the impossibility that it was, but it also (thankfully) pretty much discounts any realistic opportunity she may have had to plead "not guilty".

I remember a few months back how we were all assuming that she was crafty and possibly intelligent. I'm relieved to see at this point, that she is not. Hahaha. And to think that the FBI was likely called in initially at her (and her family's) insistance!

MOO

I do wonder what the defenses plan is. We haven't seen anything from them except for a few interviews and have only seen what the state has allowed us to see. It will be interesting to hear both sides.

Pink Panther
01-19-2009, 06:53 PM
I can't vote. I'm torn. I do think she drugged her with something and then I think she suffocated her. I think it could have been a combination of the two but there is no option for this in the voting. Poor little Caylee with duct tape around her head. What a horrible undeserved death for a little person who has nothing to offer but trust and love.

Someone posted a picture of Caylee here tonight that really broke my heart. It's possible that it was simply of a pic of a toddler throwing a temper tantrum but given everything that we know now, it's also possible that it was fear and terror and other such horrible things!

This case and the "people" involved is really starting to wear on me. I want Caylee to be heard. She deserves to have a voice and since no one seems to be standing for her, I hope that she finds the strength to stand for herself...Sooner, rather than later.

MOO

Pink Panther
01-19-2009, 06:57 PM
I do wonder what the defenses plan is. We haven't seen anything from them except for a few interviews and have only seen what the state has allowed us to see. It will be interesting to hear both sides.
What possible plan could they have??? They can stick to the bullcarp nanny story, change it up to an "accident", pull out all stops and try to accuse family members of abuse/murder, or go after all possible errors in the justice system to try for an acquittal. 4 options, I think. Oh wait, I forgot, legal incompetence. 5. 5 lame-azzed options. Anyone have any to add?

MOO

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 07:09 PM
I know PP that picture bothered me too and I realized I don't have a single picture of my four children or a grandchild crying and screaming for help because I would have had to put the camera down in order to respond. It is hard to understand the detachment there, tho admittedly not every mom gets as stressed out as me by hearing children cry. This does not persuade me however that a self-involved, preoccupied, inattentive mother can not easily be guilty of genuine neglect. Happens everyday. JMO

Pink Panther
01-19-2009, 07:12 PM
I know PP that picture bothered me too and I realized I don't have a single picture of my four children or a grandchild crying and screaming for help because I would have had to put the camera down and been responding. It is hard to understand the detachment. This does not persuade me however that a self-involved, preoccupied, inattentive mother can not easily be guilty of genuine neglect. Happens everyday. JMO

Oh I have no doubt that Caylee was neglected and abused by her mother...Contrary to your opinion however, I believe that she was also neglected and abused by her Grandparents who failed to face reality and failed to ensure that she was in safe hands day in and day out for the 2 1/2 short years of her life!

ChasingMoxie
01-19-2009, 07:20 PM
This may have already been asked...sorry if it has, I haven't read the entire tread. I'm just wondering if Caylee did drown in the pool how can the prosecution prove she did not? And wouldn't that explain JB's comments that KC did not kill Caylee. If this is the case then exactly what can KC be convicted of? The burden of proof is on the State and if KC says she drowned then how can the State prove otherwise? Just asking. TIA

I don't know for sure, but I think if they suddenly wanted to go the "accident" route they would have to put KC on the stand to tell her story, and I think both sides know what a disaster that would be for the defense. Just something to keep in mind. :silenced:

Who_What_When
01-19-2009, 07:23 PM
What possible plan could they have??? They can stick to the bullcarp nanny story, change it up to an "accident", pull out all stops and try to accuse family members of abuse/murder, or go after all possible errors in the justice system to try for an acquittal. 4 options, I think. Oh wait, I forgot, legal incompetence. 5. 5 lame-azzed options. Anyone have any to add?

MOO


Well they obviously have some type of defense. We haven't seen any of it and to be fair, whether we think it's bull or not, its the law of our court. People have already convicted her (which from what I've seen she should be), but I'm willing to hear both sides and see our justice system at work. Innocent until proven guilty.

kiki the parrot
01-19-2009, 07:28 PM
Oh I have no doubt that Caylee was neglected and abused by her mother...Contrary to your opinion however, I believe that she was also neglected and abused by her Grandparents who failed to face reality and failed to ensure that she was in safe hands day in and day out for the 2 1/2 short years of her life!

I'm not sure you have taken time to really understand my beliefs PP, but as far as abuse by grandparents (or KC for that matter), I've simply not seen enuf evidence or any reports or accounts by others to warrant leveling those kind of allegations, certainly not against CA. Perhaps you knew them better than I. FYI all I've said is that the possible scenarios (from premeditated murder, all the way to negligence w cover-up which to date I'm personally unable to exclude) are so totally disparate, w such vastly differing implications that it's impossible for me to make these sorts of allegations, or decide guilt. The case wears on me too when we have no new info, and when I know after COV it may be this time next year (groan) before they proceed w trial... (sigh...) JMO

simplesimon
01-19-2009, 07:54 PM
Nah, KC never thought this disappearance/murder would be pinned on her.
Oh I agree , she NEVER thought anyone would look at her. She thought once she told the Zanny kidnap story she would be looked at as a victim.that is why even in jail she is whining to CA I am a victim!!
She is so much like Scott Peterson that way, They were both used to lying their way thru life and having the parents back them up.And they both never thought the publicity that would surround the cases.

LinasK
01-19-2009, 10:22 PM
Oh I agree , she NEVER thought anyone would look at her. She thought once she told the Zanny kidnap story she would be looked at as a victim.that is why even in jail she is whining to CA I am a victim!!
She is so much like Scott Peterson that way, They were both used to lying their way thru life and having the parents back them up.And they both never thought the publicity that would surround the cases.
Oh, I totally agree with this! And both families act in similar ways IMO.

Lanie
01-20-2009, 01:02 PM
I wonder if George was even home late morning, early afternoon on June 16th.
The timeline evidence would fit Casey leaving at 12:50pm, however, the cell pings never leave the area of the house, and it looks like she was back by 2pm, if she ever left at all. If George had to be at work at 3, and it only took him 20 minutes to get there, how did she know it was safe to be back at 2?
I've never felt George was telling the truth about June 16th, and it has also never felt right Casey would go to all the trouble to leave so she could hide out for an hour until George left the house, just to go right back.
I believe, backed by the evidence, Casey killed Caylee, deliberately, and Caylee was dead and in the trunk of the car by the time she left after 4pm.
I have looked all over for George's cell pings, but can't find them. I also remember someone saying George wasn't home June 16th, but have no verification on this.
Does anyone know anything about this? If his story is inaccurate, it really changes the timeline.
BTW, my theory of deliberate, planned killing does not depend on George being there or not at 12:50.
Lanie

Steely Dan
01-20-2009, 01:31 PM
I wonder if George was even home late morning, early afternoon on June 16th.
The timeline evidence would fit Casey leaving at 12:50pm, however, the cell pings never leave the area of the house, and it looks like she was back by 2pm, if she ever left at all. If George had to be at work at 3, and it only took him 20 minutes to get there, how did she know it was safe to be back at 2?
I've never felt George was telling the truth about June 16th, and it has also never felt right Casey would go to all the trouble to leave so she could hide out for an hour until George left the house, just to go right back.
I believe, backed by the evidence, Casey killed Caylee, deliberately, and Caylee was dead and in the trunk of the car by the time she left after 4pm.
I have looked all over for George's cell pings, but can't find them. I also remember someone saying George wasn't home June 16th, but have no verification on this.
Does anyone know anything about this? If his story is inaccurate, it really changes the timeline.
BTW, my theory of deliberate, planned killing does not depend on George being there or not at 12:50.
Lanie

I believe that someone here said that the night KC left GA said he was watching his favorite "Food Channel" show and CA ribbed him and he said he was watching the news. I believe this happened on LK but I'm not sure.

If they are trying to change that to fit their time line then it wouldn't surprise me if other times were effed with.

debs
01-20-2009, 01:33 PM
George's e-pass records show he was out of the house in the morning of the 16th. I cannot recall precisely what time he returned, but this information is in a sticky.

2goldfish
01-20-2009, 04:38 PM
I couldn't agree more and I do not think Caylee drown. I was just throwing the question out there because JB is going to come up with some reason this all happened and he's going to try to spoon feed it to the jury. In my gut I have a feeling this is the direction he will go. While I agree that nothing short of cold blooded murder explains the duct tape and absolutely nothing explains KC's bizarre behavior and all of her lies. JB still has to come up with something to defend her. I wonder what it's going to be.


They dont have to come up with an alternate reason, all they have to do is instill in the jury reasonable doubt that what the state says happened, did not.

If they are smart what they are going to do is keep pointing out over and over how it could have been anyone except KC that killed her, that it didnt have to be KC, that another person could be involved and they dont have to say who.

I think they are so far beyond accident that they wont even try it. Plus if they try it, they have to put her on the stand. She is the last person on earth a lawyer wants on the stand. If she was going the accident route, she would plea out which I feel she would never do.

Lanie
01-20-2009, 04:44 PM
George's e-pass records show he was out of the house in the morning of the 16th. I cannot recall precisely what time he returned, but this information is in a sticky.

I just looked at those epass records the other day, and all I remember seeing is what looks like a couple of trips to Mt. Dora. I'll look them up again, thanks.
Lanie

Who_What_When
01-20-2009, 09:09 PM
George's e-pass records show he was out of the house in the morning of the 16th. I cannot recall precisely what time he returned, but this information is in a sticky.

When I look at the e-pass records I don't see any activity for the June 16th. I see a payment made on June 16th and a lot of activity for June 15th. Maybe I'm missing something?

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/ganthony%20epass.pdf

cyberborg
01-20-2009, 09:54 PM
When I look at the e-pass records I don't see any activity for the June 16th. I see a payment made on June 16th and a lot of activity for June 15th. Maybe I'm missing something?

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/ganthony%20epass.pdf

IIRC you are correct. There was some errors on here where the same date in July was confused with June and it got embedded in the posts as a WS Urban Myth.

Lanie
01-21-2009, 10:07 AM
When I look at the e-pass records I don't see any activity for the June 16th. I see a payment made on June 16th and a lot of activity for June 15th. Maybe I'm missing something?

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/ganthony%20epass.pdf

IIRC you are correct. There was some errors on here where the same date in July was confused with June and it got embedded in the posts as a WS Urban Myth.

That's good to know, because I know I looked specifically at June 16th, and didn't remember seeing a thing. Thanks for the link, BTW.
So, George could have been home, or not at home. Wish we had his cell phone pings.
This case is so much more difficult because you can't really take what anyone says at face value.
Casey says "31 days". If you count back, including July 15th, that makes it June 15th. On July 16th, she says "32 days", so she is very specific with that count. But again, we are talking Casey.??
I just can't see Caylee being killed on June 15th in the house. Way too risky, and it seems as if the dogs would have hit inside the house had she been in there that long dead. Maybe Casey thought there were 31 days in June?
Lanie

BondJamesBond
01-22-2009, 05:46 PM
Will just hafta explain it all later, but, here's a Cliff's notes version of my current speculation based on all available information as I understand it...

1) Caylee died as the result of cumulative overdose of Rx and/or chloroform, having been sedated (up to) a third time in 1day on 6/16 :(
2) Time of death: ~7:30PM 6/16 :(
3) Location of death: Pontiac @/near Tony's apt. :(
4) Casey cks on Caylee and finds her dead ~11:17PM & powers her phone down. Talks Tony into skipping classes @ Full Sail 6/17 (to comfort her).
5) Body bagged in laundry bag @ G&C's 6/17
6) Body bagged in plastic and moved into Tony's Jeep 6/19PM ~7:30PM after visit w/ Chris S. awaiting sundown and establishing alibi
7) Body disposed on Suburban Dr after 7:30PM but closer to 9:02PM when she powered her phone up while driving back to Tony's apt.

ETA: Thanks to JWG for spotting a ping location error in the cell log. I corrected #4 to reflect.

seekjustice
01-22-2009, 08:19 PM
Will just hafta explain it all later, but, here's a Cliff's notes version of my current speculation based on all available information as I understand it...

1) Caylee died as the result of cumulative overdose of Rx and/or chloroform, having been sedated (up to) a third time in 1day on 6/16 :(
2) Time of death: ~7:30PM 6/16 :(
3) Location of death: Pontiac @/near Tony's apt. :(
4) Casey finds Caylee dead ~10:30PM ck'g on her, drives away to examine, & returns to Tony's @ 11:17PM & powers her phone down
5) Body bagged in laundry bag @ G&C's 6/17
6) Body bagged in plastic and moved into Tony's Jeep 6/19PM ~7:30PM after visit w/ Chris S. awaiting sundown and establishing alibi
7) Body disposed on Suburban Dr after 7:30PM but closer to 9:02PM when she powered her phone up while driving back to Tony's apt.


Wow Bond this is the most different theory I've heard in awhile, I'm anxiously looking forward to more info!

doogiesgirl
01-22-2009, 09:41 PM
Will just hafta explain it all later, but, here's a Cliff's notes version of my current speculation based on all available information as I understand it...

1) Caylee died as the result of cumulative overdose of Rx and/or chloroform, having been sedated (up to) a third time in 1day on 6/16 :(
2) Time of death: ~7:30PM 6/16 :(
3) Location of death: Pontiac @/near Tony's apt. :(
4) Casey finds Caylee dead ~10:30PM ck'g on her, drives away to examine, & returns to Tony's @ 11:17PM & powers her phone down
5) Body bagged in laundry bag @ G&C's 6/17
6) Body bagged in plastic and moved into Tony's Jeep 6/19PM ~7:30PM after visit w/ Chris S. awaiting sundown and establishing alibi
7) Body disposed on Suburban Dr after 7:30PM but closer to 9:02PM when she powered her phone up while driving back to Tony's apt.

Wow, thats good. Do we know if they ever checked AL's vehicle for anything suspicious? My cable connection has been sketchy the last several days so I haven't been able to read all the new docs yet or been able to keep up on all the current WS talk. Cable guys coming Sat and they are gonna be so welcomed! ha

miabellamoure
01-22-2009, 10:01 PM
I don't believe that KC was alone when the death/murder of Caylee occurred.
*(Obvious choices would be TonE or RM.)*

I don't believe that KC was alone at the time of the disposal of Caylee's remains. *(Again, obvious choices would be TonE or RM)*

I don't believe KC would actually bury Caylee in her parents backyard..."evidence" maybe but, not Caylee's remains. *(1st...IF KC were acting alone then, I don't think she would have had the strength or time to dig a deep enough grave plus, the odor would have eventually surfaced causing suspicion by the A's.)*

I don't believe that Caylee drowned. *(But, I do believe that KC may have attempted a fake an accidental drowning "post-mortem".)

Here's what I'm more inclined to believe:

Caylee's death may have been the result of an overdose from an RX or illegal substance used to quiet Caylee while KC was at play with TonE. TonE may have been aware of KC's means to accomplish this and both conspired together *(Blockbuster Movie Research) after the fact to hide & dispose of Caylee plus, come up with a kidnap scenario *(ZFG)*.

OR...

KC acted alone & intended to murder Caylee *(due to the Internet Searches for Chloroform, Neck Breaking, etc.) and then planned to stage it as an accident or kidnapping to free herself from the responsibilities of a child.

As a bonus, she'd garner the sympathy & positive attention of her parents that she seemed to get little of anymore...granted she did nothing to be deserving of either!

BondJamesBond
01-22-2009, 10:06 PM
Will just hafta explain it all later, but, here's a Cliff's notes version of my current speculation based on all available information as I understand it...

1) Caylee died as the result of cumulative overdose of Rx and/or chloroform, having been sedated (up to) a third time in 1day on 6/16 :(
2) Time of death: ~7:30PM 6/16 :(
3) Location of death: Pontiac @/near Tony's apt. :(
4) Casey cks on Caylee and finds her dead ~11:17PM & powers her phone down. Talks Tony into skipping classes @ Full Sail 6/17 (to comfort her).
5) Body bagged in laundry bag @ G&C's 6/17
6) Body bagged in plastic and moved into Tony's Jeep 6/19PM ~7:30PM after visit w/ Chris S. awaiting sundown and establishing alibi
7) Body disposed on Suburban Dr after 7:30PM but closer to 9:02PM when she powered her phone up while driving back to Tony's apt.

ETA: Thanks to JWG for spotting a ping location error in the cell log. I corrected #4 to reflect.

Bumping the edited version.
Doogiesgirl, there were two stains identified in the cargo area of Tony's Jeep, and like the stain in the Pontiac, they were tested to determine if they were blood, and like the stain in the Pontiac, that test was negative.

miabellamoure
01-22-2009, 10:08 PM
Bumping the edited version.
Doogiesgirl, there were two stains identified in the cargo area of Tony's Jeep, and like the stain in the Pontiac, they were tested to determine if they were blood, and like the stain in the Pontiac, that test was negative.

But...do we know if they were tested for decomp? Test results?

miabellamoure
01-22-2009, 10:10 PM
Bumping the edited version.
Doogiesgirl, there were two stains identified in the cargo area of Tony's Jeep, and like the stain in the Pontiac, they were tested to determine if they were blood, and like the stain in the Pontiac, that test was negative.

Also, do we know if the "laundry bag" that Caylee was placed in was what KC may have purchased (replacement laundry bag) using CA's Penney's charge card after she went missing?

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 01:37 AM
OK…not pretty, but, it is what it is. Just telling this like it came to me…I’ll sprinkle in some background info where I think it might help…everything IMHO - however, the conclusions I draw are supported by case information…some mo’ better than others :)

In grabbing some handwriting samples from Casey’s handwritten statement to compare to the ZG signature on the traffic appearance I notice a couple of things. First, Casey scratched out a couple of words regarding the time she dropped Caylee w/ ZG on Monday, 6/9. Second, Casey wrote her last contact w/ ZG was on Thursday, 6/12. Both of these intrigued me…why hadn’t I probed them before?

Casey scratched out the words “at one” as in o’clock, in favor of writing between 9AM and 1PM, IIRC. Now we have George’s much debated statement ‘bout Casey & Caylee leaving @ 12:50PM just like any other day. We also have cell pings for both 6/9 and 6/15, and we have computer forensics for 6/16.

We also have statements that Cindy had kept Caylee on her vacation that ended 6/8, yet, Casey skipped out on their time together. So, Casey was effectively MIA as far as Caylee-care was concerned ~6/3- 6/9. Much supports that Caylee was effectively away from G&C’s 6/10-6/14. See the 6/10-6/14 thread for a statistical analysis that supports Casey was staying at a location north of G&C’s, but, within the same cell ping area during the nights of this period. Note that there are 3 towers that sorta form a triangle around G&C’s and Lee’s (former) homes. From that analysis I conclude that Casey used Lee’s house to keep Caylee at night. This was a week of transition for Casey…from Ricardo to Tony. The relationship with Tony was still new at this point. Casey may have stolen away to Tony’s apartment for a few hours at a time in the middle of the night for rendezvous 6/10-6/14 leaving Caylee @ Lee’s, but, Casey essentially stayed nights w/ Caylee @ Lee’s.

On both Fusian Fridays, 6/6 and 6/13, Casey was calling/being called by G&C in the wee hours of the morning and subsequently went home. This behavior, plus skipping out on Cindy’s vacation, which included her 50th bday, 6/5, likely fueled fights #1 & 2, Sundays, 6/7 and 6/15.

When we look at an individual day, there aren’t enough cell ping data points to make a statistical conclusion ‘bout Casey bein’ @ G&C’s or Lee’s, but, when I looked closer @ 6/8-6/9 and 6/15-6/16 I noted that there are periods of a sometimes more than a dozen pings in a row that strike the northern tower nearer Lee’s home. Typically, the pings bounce back and forth between 2 towers – one more southern and the other more northern. For these periods when a long stretch of pings strike the northern tower, I believe Casey was taking refuge @ Lee’s. I can’t detail them here, but, suffice it to say Casey appeared to goto Lee’s 6/8PM moreso than 6/15PM…and did, indeed, appear to spend the night @ G&C’s on 6/15, which agrees with Cindy’s account.

On the computer forensics thread, JWG, used Casey’s prolific PhotoBucket upload behavior to support that Caylee was likely napping between 1PM-3PM each day. I contend that Casey’s cell call data supports the same. On both, 6/9 and 6/15 Casey’s string of northern cell pings support that she left G&C’s and went to Lee’s while Caylee napped. There Casey made long phone calls. This is in agreement w/ George’s account of Casey leaving like any other day, and, in fact, harkens back to Casey’s scratched out handwritten statement of leaving Caylee “at one”.

JUNE 9:

On 6/9 Casey took Caylee to Lee’s. Between 12:55PM and 3:17PM….15 of 16 pings hit the northern tower nearer Lee’s. Casey had an uncommon text exchange w/ Lee @ 1:24PM-1:36PM. This was perhaps a message reminding Casey to lock the house when she left.
At 3:36PM & 3:43PM Casey texted Amy ‘bout Caylee’s potting training, supporting that Caylee was awake. Interestingly, also @ 3:36 & 3:43PM Casey texts Lee & Tony …likely same potty training comment. Noteworthy that Cindy and George aren’t included in the news.

A 4:55PM a call to Tony is followed by a 6/9 “flurry” - 5 calls to Cindy in ~3 mins! Cindy called Casey @ 5:42PM and likely delivered the “no, I’m not keeping Caylee tonight” message. Between the two Casey called Don Reid Ford (Annie)…perhaps seeking Caylee-Care. This behavior suggests to me that the purpose of the “flurry” calls were, indeed, to establish Caylee-Care for the night…not S.O.S. calls. This 6/9 flurry included some 1min +/1 connects…on hold? or arguing ‘cause Casey wants to drop Caylee and Cindy had her the entire week prior on her vacation.

All of these events bear a striking resemblance to the events of 6/16…

JUNE 16:

Again, Casey went to Lee’s, only slightly earlier than 6/9. From 11:47AM until 3:04PM the duration of calls suggests Caylee was napping. 18 of 22 (not counting vmails that don’t have location associated) calls between 11:47AM and 4:14PM…which includes the “flurry” calls. Are carried by Tower 22. This suggests Casey placed the first 6/16 flurry of calls from Lee’s and that the pool wasn’t involved in any ‘accident’.

We also have computer forensics info for 6/16 to use with the cell ping data, and it supports that Casey left G&C’s 12-2PM on Monday, 6/16, yet, she returned between 2-3PM when G&C’s computer is active again. Casey returned to G&C’s while Caylee napped @ Lee’s. Specifically, using the cell data, Casey went to G&C’s for ~30mins 6/16 between 2:20-2:52PM. Casey may have dosed Caylee @ Lee’s to ensure she remained ‘asleep’.

IMHO, the above suggests the timing of George’s account better describes 6/9 vs. 6/15.

Extrapolating the behavior from 6/6…now on 6/16:
“Flurry 1” 4:10=>4:25PM calls were for “Need you to keep Caylee tonight”
Failure to get Cindy to take Caylee, Casey may have dosed her to enable the trip to Tony’s

“Flurry 2” 6:31=>6:33PM Flurry of calls…prior to the Blockbuster visit… w/ no luck… resulted in dosing Caylee to enable the Blockbuster trip alone with Tony

At 7:06PM Casey reached Cindy @ home for 1.4mins conversation…apparently another, “no”

At 7:20 & 7:21PM Casey placed 2 calls to Amy…last ditch effort…Amy wasn’t feeling well that night…another strike out…which resulted in another/final dosing of Caylee to enable 3-4 hrs of movie watching. The last dosage to enable Blockbuster visit may not have been enough to keep Caylee out. Perhaps Casey returned to find Caylee crying. For the next dosing, duct tape is placed over Caylee’s mouth in case she awakens. Since this is the longest duration Casey has attempted…she’s unsure of the dosage, but, perhaps ups it…this increased final dosage is alone fatal…or…the cumulative dose for the day is fatal…or…combination of different Rx’s is fatal.

After the movies were over, sometime around 11PM, Casey went to the Pontiac trunk to check on Caylee. She may already have had the chloroform bottle open ready to dose Caylee again – as she intended to spend the night and this seemed to be working so far - until she found Caylee’s body. She spilled more contents of the bottle into the trunk shaking Caylee in denial. Perhaps Casey retreated from the additional fumes, and/or, in apathy from smoking that night, combined w/ her deeply embedded victim status, Casey turned off her cell phone and went to Tony for comfort…he was none the wiser.

10:52AM 6/17…Casey powered up her phone and got an immediate text that notified her of vmail which she checked, then, she called Amy. The afternoon of 6/17 afforded Casey the opportunity to return to G&C’s, back into the garage, and survey the tragegy. Caylee had been bedded down in the trunk in her Winnie the Pooh blanket. Her body was placed in a laundry bag without thought/knowledge of the impending decomposition.

A detailed analysis of the trunk temperatures and a 6/16 7:20PM death yields ADD results that give the date & time to bag the body as 6/19 between 7-8PM.

Checking Casey’s cell log for this time period I find Casey inactive for 3 hours from 5:45PM (near Fusian) =>9:02PM (near Amscot) and may have powered off her phone since the 9:02PM ping is an incoming text. This period is in agreement with Chris S. statement of Casey visiting him at his house 5'ish in Tony’s Jeep for an hour or so. Forensics on Tony’s Jeep indicated 2 small stains in the cargo area that were not blood, similar to the Pontiac. Casey likely waited for sundown, then, used Tony’s black Jeep to take the now re-bagged body to the disposal location on Suburban Drive.

The alleged Thursday, 6/12, final contact with ZG per Casey’s handwritten statement was, simply, akin to Monday 6/15 => Monday 6/9 - a one-week transfer of the date Caylee’s body was bagged & disposed…outta sight…outta mind.

ecs5298
01-23-2009, 01:53 AM
After the movies were over, sometime around 11PM, Casey went to the Pontiac trunk to check on Caylee. She may already have had the chloroform bottle open ready to dose Caylee again – as she intended to spend the night and this seemed to be working so far - until she found Caylee’s body. She spilled more contents of the bottle into the trunk shaking Caylee in denial. Perhaps Casey retreated from the additional fumes, and/or, in apathy from smoking that night, combined w/ her deeply embedded victim status, Casey turned off her cell phone and went to Tony for comfort…he was none the wiser.



It was the middle of June, pretty close to the summer solstice, what would the temperatures have been like in that trunk that night? NWS lists a high temp for 6/15 at Orlando Executive of 92 degrees and a low of 73 degrees, high temp for 6/16 90 degrees, low 73 degrees. No hourly reports are available at this time for that far back.

Wouldn't the heat have killed her?

cacnotcam
01-23-2009, 01:57 AM
It was the middle of June, pretty close to the summer solstice, what would the temperatures have been like in that trunk that night? NWS lists a high temp for 6/15 at Orlando Executive of 92 degrees and a low of 73 degrees, high temp for 6/16 90 degrees, low 73 degrees. No hourly reports are available at this time for that far back.

Wouldn't the heat have killed her?

That's what gets me about the whole dosing Caylee and popping her in the trunk. It is WAY to hot in FL for anyone to survive temps like that in the summer! Even at night. No air flow? She would have surely suffocated with no sedatives needed!

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 02:01 AM
It was the middle of June, pretty close to the summer solstice, what would the temperatures have been like in that trunk that night? NWS lists a high temp for 6/15 at Orlando Executive of 92 degrees and a low of 73 degrees, high temp for 6/16 90 degrees, low 73 degrees. No hourly reports are available at this time for that far back.

Wouldn't the heat have killed her?

Pulling from JWG's ADD spreadsheet w/ ambient Orlando T @ 5min intervals and the compensated temperature adjusted for the delta in the trunk and time of day (based on another independent study of this delta)...

@ 7:30PM 6/16

Ambient T = 74.5 F
Trunk T = 86.4 F

Dehydration would certainly be competing w/ o.d. and/or simply a contributing factor that sped death. :(

Rumpole
01-23-2009, 02:12 AM
Pulling from JWG's ADD spreadsheet w/ ambient Orlando T @ 5min intervals and the compensated temperature adjusted for the delta in the trunk and time of day (based on another independent study of this delta)...

@ 7:30PM 6/16

Ambient T = 74.5 F
Trunk T = 86.4 F

Dehydration would certainly be competing w/ o.d. and/or simply a contributing factor that sped death. :(
On the face of it I like it a lot. Will read again and think and try real hard to pick holes.

After everything you say up to 17th can we not revert to bits of previous theories (like mine), that is she visited again on 18th borrowed spade and contemplated burial etc.
Dumped body 18th 19th 20th? or even 24th still viable?

shadow of my mind
01-23-2009, 02:17 AM
Very well thought out Bond. Have read it twice and can't find any holes at this point. Will try again after I let it roll around in the old noggin for a while.

Rumpole
01-23-2009, 03:35 AM
Pulling from JWG's ADD spreadsheet w/ ambient Orlando T @ 5min intervals and the compensated temperature adjusted for the delta in the trunk and time of day (based on another independent study of this delta)...

@ 7:30PM 6/16

Ambient T = 74.5 F
Trunk T = 86.4 F

Dehydration would certainly be competing w/ o.d. and/or simply a contributing factor that sped death. :(

If Caylee died say 8:00pm 16th. Decomposing in trunk 2.6 days means removed from trunk on the moring of 19th, say 8-9am? This does not agree with known visit back at G &C's? You know better than I do. Don't pings etc place her away from A's all day? Body had to be not in plastic bag up untill then., then bagged in plastic. You say after visiting Chris that day in the evening, which is later than forensics suggest for decomp in the trunk. The body transfer between cars and the plastic bagging on the street? Plastic bagging on 18th is too soon for decomp evidence. I am struggling with the transfering to the Jeep part. Exactly when and where does that take place and why?? Why not dump from her own car soon after bagging. Or even be stupid and drive around for 1 or more days with a corpse, but no longer leaking decomposition fluids because of the plastic but, just dump from her own car?
Also if AL's jeep had a touch of the same juice that stank up KC's car, why didn't he and the rest of Orange County notice it? Does it stink even a little now? Was Tony complicit? It didn't seem so from the texts on morning 16th July.
I quite like the build up and nature of death scenario. I still struggle with the inclusion of chloroform, and it is hard to see patent medicines actually working very well as knock out potions.

Trailerparkgirl
01-23-2009, 06:52 AM
i had this thought last night, that clairfies things for me...the accident theory keeps on popping up in my head, but not anymore...the reason is the duct tape...if you put duct tape on someone with the INTENT of eventually taking it off, you would not get the hair caught on the tape! you know eventually (in this case when caylee wakes up) you will have to take the tape off, so you would be careful not to put it on her hair knowing it would hurt when you tried to pull it off....
when caylee's skull was found, the hair had to be cut so the duct tape could be removed, which tells me she had no intention of taking that tape off
this was no accident, and the tape was used as part of a murder weapon!

Mysterylover
01-23-2009, 09:19 AM
They dont have to come up with an alternate reason, all they have to do is instill in the jury reasonable doubt that what the state says happened, did not.

If they are smart what they are going to do is keep pointing out over and over how it could have been anyone except KC that killed her,

that it didnt have to be KC, that another person could be involved and they dont have to say who.

I think they are so far beyond accident that they wont even try it.

Plus if they try it, they have to put her on the stand. She is the last person on earth a lawyer wants on the stand. If she was going the accident route, she would plea out which I feel she would never do.

2goldfish...Good points that many have not considered..
I believe her attorneys will stress 'it's not what we see, but what we don't see' in this case.
the following is along the same line of thinking....imo

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=73935&cat=14

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Very well thought out Bond. Have read it twice and can't find any holes at this point. Will try again after I let it roll around in the old noggin for a while.

That means alot coming from you, Shadow. :detective: Thanks for all of your help researching info. :blowkiss:

I don't wanna think 'bout what it woulda cost if I was writing checks for the $/hour I owe you for all your help over the past few months.

I expect there to be some holes...esp. where we just don't have much info to go on @ this time (e.g. 6/19 details). I'm not really tryin' to come up w/ the narrative that 'splains it all...just the key points from A to B.

I left out the ZG impersonation storyline that, based on the evidence of 7/15, I'm convinced is running in parallel to all of the events of the murder. No need to muddy up the waters with how the alibi came to fruition here...just stayin' focused on Caylee :(

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 09:57 AM
If Caylee died say 8:00pm 16th. Decomposing in trunk 2.6 days means removed from trunk on the moring of 19th, say 8-9am? This does not agree with known visit back at G &C's? You know better than I do. Don't pings etc place her away from A's all day? Body had to be not in plastic bag up untill then., then bagged in plastic. You say after visiting Chris that day in the evening, which is later than forensics suggest for decomp in the trunk. The body transfer between cars and the plastic bagging on the street? Plastic bagging on 18th is too soon for decomp evidence. I am struggling with the transfering to the Jeep part. Exactly when and where does that take place and why?? Why not dump from her own car soon after bagging. Or even be stupid and drive around for 1 or more days with a corpse, but no longer leaking decomposition fluids because of the plastic but, just dump from her own car?
Also if AL's jeep had a touch of the same juice that stank up KC's car, why didn't he and the rest of Orange County notice it? Does it stink even a little now? Was Tony complicit? It didn't seem so from the texts on morning 16th July.
I quite like the build up and nature of death scenario. I still struggle with the inclusion of chloroform, and it is hard to see patent medicines actually working very well as knock out potions.

I'm sure you have more questions than I have answers...:)
...and I have plenty more questions myself.

RE: "2.6 days".

Lemme take a hack at it and I'll ask JWG to fix where I may stray...my apologies if it goes a bit OT, but, relevant to understanding how the forensics are used to support any theory.

I owe JWG and Bev a big TY for helping me understand the accumulated-degree-days (ADD) information that most know of as "2.6 days". This # is arrived at as a total of the elapsed temperature-time conditions following death. After the 2.6 figure was released JWG noted that the temperatures that were used as inputs may have been off a bit when compared to more detailed Orlando temperatures that were otherwise available.

So, JWG created a spreadsheet populated w/ 5-minute interval Orlando temperatures for the entire period of interest. After bouncin' it around a bit, we found some research on the web that had been done comparing the interior temperature of a car trunk vs. ambient temperatures vs. time of day, and incorporated (a) simulated trunk temps for each 5-minute interval, and (b) the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk to simulate the potential that it wasn't @ elevated temperatures if it had been moved...say...to the playhouse for example...for a period of time.

The end result of the above is IMHO, a more accurate assessment of the ADD data the body experienced than that which was provided to reach the 2.6 # in the released report. The actual target is 90 ADD. And using the compensated temperatures for the given time of death of 6/16 7:20PM we reach 90 ADD @ exactly 6/19 7:36PM (or 3.01 days)...and I gave a +/-1% range..so....7:01PM-8:19PM is the mathematical result. We don't know the exact time of medical death either...immediate...or slower organ failure that ultimate resulted in cardiac arrest...effect of heat/dehydration, etc. So, consider it a range. If you're interested, JWG can prolly tell you how many temperature input points were used to arrive @ the 2.6 days used in the released report. The spreadsheet we're using has 869 temperature input points.

Note that the time of day of death has an impact too, owing to a late PM death accumulating a cooler nighttime cycle of temperatures in the same amount of time as compared to a hotter daytime cycle.

Hope that helps.

RE: Pings.

The following is a 3.3 hour gap for which we have no data for Casey's whereabout via pings.

6/19/08 THU 5:45:39 PM
6/19/08 THU 9:02:02 PM

This timeframe (a) encompasses the time given by Chris S. for Casey's visit with him, and (b) ends @ 9:02 with the receipt of a numbered text. This suggests to me Casey powered off her phone and received a system message when she powered it back up. The 5:45PM ping is in the Waterford Ale House/Fusian area, and the 9:02PM ping is near Tony's apt.

LazyCat08
01-23-2009, 10:07 AM
".......................I don't believe that Caylee drowned. *(But, I do believe that KC may have attempted a fake an accidental drowning "post-mortem".)...................Here's what I'm more inclined to believe:................KC acted alone & intended to murder Caylee *(due to the Internet Searches for Chloroform, Neck Breaking, etc.) and then planned to stage it as an accident or kidnapping to free herself from the responsibilities of a child."
SNIPPED FROM MIABELLAMOURE


I really believe this is the most likely scenario based on the evidence so far. Its WAY TOO BIG a coincidence that KC searched for chloroform on line and then it just happened to end up in the trunk of her abandoned car along with evidence of a deceased Caylee......

However, I do have 2 questions about the chloroform.

#1-I thought I read somewhere that chloroform is one of the chemicals used in a pool or that it can result from a combination of certain chemicals used in a pool.
Just for the sake of argument, say Caylee had drowned in the pool by accident, if KC put her wet body in the trunk of her car, could that account for the level of chloroform found there?

#2-If KC did sedate Caylee with chloroform and/or attempted to stage an accidental drowning by putting Caylee's body in the pool. Wouldn't there be evidence of chloroform or chemicals on the blanket and cloth items that where discovered with the body?

Indigo
01-23-2009, 10:17 AM
i had this thought last night, that clairfies things for me...the accident theory keeps on popping up in my head, but not anymore...the reason is the duct tape...if you put duct tape on someone with the INTENT of eventually taking it off, you would not get the hair caught on the tape! you know eventually (in this case when caylee wakes up) you will have to take the tape off, so you would be careful not to put it on her hair knowing it would hurt when you tried to pull it off....
when caylee's skull was found, the hair had to be cut so the duct tape could be removed, which tells me she had no intention of taking that tape off
this was no accident, and the tape was used as part of a murder weapon!

I agree, Trailerparkgirl. The tape was applied in such a way that was never intended to be taken off, IMO. And since we know Casey never did remove the tape, the thought that there was any attempt at Caylee's revival (due to accidental overdose) seems very remote.

Mysterylover
01-23-2009, 10:20 AM
I had this thought last night, that clairfies things for me...the accident theory keeps on popping up in my head, but not anymore...
the reason is the duct tape...

If you put duct tape on someone with the INTENT of eventually taking it off, you would not get the hair caught on the tape!

you know eventually (in this case when caylee wakes up) you will have to take the tape off, so you would be careful not to put it on her hair knowing it would hurt when you tried to pull it off....
when caylee's skull was found, the hair had to be cut so the duct tape could be removed, which tells me she had no intention of taking that tape off
this was no accident, and the tape was used as part of a murder weapon!....
Tra:
BINGO!...You are absolutely correct. The duct tape wrapped around the head says it all.
There would be NO way to remove the duct tape without pulling much of the childs hair out or cutting the hair above the tape..
Who ever put the duct tape around this childs head and face did not intend to remove it...imo

Why would someone use so much duct tape is a question that still haunts me???
IF Casey wanted the baby dead, why wouldn't she put her in the pool and allow her to drown, then call it an accident??? :rose:

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Who ever put the duct tape around this childs head and face did not intend to remove it.

*snipped*
...or...consider, when Casey applied the duct tape she had:

(a) an afternoon of toke'n under her belt, and/or,
(b) was in a hurry

Ever done something when you were *cough* self-medicated and impressed with your work, only to come back later, non-medicated, to see what a mess you'd made?

ETA: Not sure what might be offensive, but, certainly not meant to be. FWIW..."toke'n" = smokin' pot.

Trailerparkgirl
01-23-2009, 10:38 AM
that duct tape is nasty that is something u use for a 'good fixer upper job'
reminds me the time my husband had to go into the bush AFTER a forest fire had occured
ripped his jeans...he used duct tape to 'sew' them back together
when he got home, that duct tape was still on his pants, holding them together very nicely....
that duct tape is potent stuff....

reeseeva
01-23-2009, 10:41 AM
*snipped*
...or...consider, when Casey applied the duct tape she had:

(a) an afternoon of toke'n under her belt, and/or,
(b) was in a hurry

Ever done something when you were *cough* self-medicated and impressed with your work, only to come back later, non-medicated, to see what a mess you'd made?

Bond, I'm surprised at these comments?? Really offensive!

Trailerparkgirl
01-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Tra:
BINGO!...You are absolutely correct. The duct tape wrapped around the head says it all.
There would be NO way to remove the duct tape without pulling much of the childs hair out or cutting the hair above the tape..
Who ever put the duct tape around this childs head and face did not intend to remove it...imo

Why would someone use so much duct tape is a question that still haunts me???
IF Casey wanted the baby dead, why wouldn't she put her in the pool and allow her to drown, then call it an accident??? :rose:

because she didnt want to have to kill her...watch her die
instead she put duct tape around her mouth and left her in the trunk to die from the heat...(if that's the way it happened)
i think this was the first time she put her in the trunk, imo cars get too hot in the summer, let alone in the trunk

another thing about the duct tape, not only would you have to be careful not to get it caught in the hair, but even on skin, once u take it off, there would be glue residue on her face, very hard to get off..

JWG
01-23-2009, 10:47 AM
RE: "2.6 days".

Lemme take a hack at it and I'll ask JWG to fix where I may stray...my apologies if it goes a bit OT, but, relevant to understanding how the forensics are used to support any theory.

I owe JWG and Bev a big TY for helping me understand the accumulated-degree-days (ADD) information that most know of as "2.6 days". This # is arrived at as a total of the elapsed temperature-time conditions following death. After the 2.6 figure was released JWG noted that the temperatures that were used as inputs may have been off a bit when compared to more detailed Orlando temperatures that were otherwise available.

So, JWG created a spreadsheet populated w/ 5-minute interval Orlando temperatures for the entire period of interest. After bouncin' it around a bit, we found some research on the web that had been done comparing the interior temperature of a car trunk vs. ambient temperatures vs. time of day, and incorporated (a) simulated trunk temps for each 5-minute interval, and (b) the ability to mathematically take the body in & out of the trunk to simulate the potential that it wasn't @ elevated temperatures if it had been moved...say...to the playhouse for example...for a period of time.

The end result of the above is IMHO, a more accurate assessment of the ADD data the body experienced than that which was provided to reach the 2.6 # in the released report. The actual target is 90 ADD. And using the compensated temperatures for the given time of death of 6/16 7:20PM we reach 90 ADD @ exactly 6/19 7:36PM (or 3.01 days)...and I gave a +/-1% range..so....7:01PM-8:19PM is the mathematical result. We don't know the exact time of medical death either...immediate...or slower organ failure that ultimate resulted in cardiac arrest...effect of heat/dehydration, etc. So, consider it a range. If you're interested, JWG can prolly tell you how many temperature input points were used to arrive @ the 2.6 days used in the released report. The spreadsheet we're using has 869 temperature input points.

Note that the time of day of death has an impact too, owing to a late PM death accumulating a cooler nighttime cycle of temperatures in the same amount of time as compared to a hotter daytime cycle.

Hope that helps.

Bond, you explained it quite well, as usual. :woohoo:

Let me try to add a few things.

First, the body farm made a sweeping assumption that average temperatures in Orlando during that time of year are 35C. Thus, 90 / 35 = 2.6 days. Figuring out what the real temperatures were is an exercise left to OCSO.

Turns out we can pull a lot of local temps for Orlando via weather underground. I found one station about halfway between the Anthony's and AL's that happened to record temperatures every 3 to 5 minutes. So I dumped all of the records from 6/16 to about 6/21 into a spreadsheet.

As Bond pointed out, we found some research on the web regarding car interior and trunk temperatures. Bond enhanced my spreadsheet with simulation variables to account for the difference between ambient and trunk temperatures depending on time of day. This was an important consideration, because the difference depends on time of day. For example, the difference at 5 PM might be 10 C and at 5 AM 0 C.

Then I calculated a "degree day" for each data point. Here is the general process. First, an average daily temperature of 22C over 24 hours is 22 degree days (22 degrees times 1 day). A 22C temperature recorded over a 5 minute interval is 0.076 degree days (22 degrees * 5 minutes / 1440 minutes per day).

The degree days for each data point can then be summed starting at any assumed time of death until we reach 90. At the point we reach 90 we look at the corresponding date / time and that tells us roughly when the body was removed from the trunk.

Hope between the two explanations that clarifies things.

kpalma715
01-23-2009, 10:47 AM
I picked smothered. I had a disturbing dream 2 months ago, of Casey smothering Caylee with a blanket.

Mysterylover
01-23-2009, 11:23 AM
Here's another thing that bothers me about the duct tape...
IF the child was awake, would she have been strong enough to pull the duct tape down from her face?
This entire case seems rather confusing and 'crazy' to me..IF someone wants to murder their child, why do it in this manner? Was it supposed to be a planned abduction?/..:liar:
Why not just say the child died from an simple accident??:doh:

Trailerparkgirl
01-23-2009, 11:38 AM
Here's another thing that bothers me about the duct tape...
IF the child was awake, would she have been strong enough to pull the duct tape down from her face?This entire case seems rather confusing and 'crazy' to me..IF someone wants to murder their child, why do it in this manner? Was it supposed to be a planned abduction?/..:liar:
Why not just say the child died from an simple accident??:doh:

i think so! if not able to take the whole tape off, pulling from one end to the other, at least pulling it DOWN so that her mouth was exposed
she was almost 3, she was strong enough...
so safe to say it was put on post-mortem? or actually used to soffocate her? doesnt make sense though, like i said i think she was strong enough to take it off or at least pull it down...
now im confused lol

Indigo
01-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Here's another thing that bothers me about the duct tape...
IF the child was awake, would she have been strong enough to pull the duct tape down from her face?
This entire case seems rather confusing and 'crazy' to me..IF someone wants to murder their child, why do it in this manner? Was it supposed to be a planned abduction?/..:liar:
Why not just say the child died from an simple accident??:doh:

It's a disturbing thing to try and get into the mind of a killer--especially when a mother murders her own child. The act alone is unthinkable. Yet children are killed by their parents everyday in unimaginable ways.

Why Casey chose to do it this way may be due to her own fantasies. Her post-murder behavior has been much like Diane Downs. Who can forget Downs groovin' to the tune of "Hungry Like the Wolf," the song that played while her children were being brutally murdered?"

Indigo
01-23-2009, 11:58 AM
i think so! if not able to take the whole tape off, pulling from one end to the other, at least pulling it DOWN so that her mouth was exposed
she was almost 3, she was strong enough...
so safe to say it was put on post-mortem? or actually used to soffocate her? doesnt make sense though, like i said i think she was strong enough to take it off or at least pull it down...
now im confused lol

Hopefully the fibers on the tape will tell the tale. Carpet? Clothing? bedding fibers? fibers from the trunk? Hopefully an indication of where this all took place.

My bet is on the Anthony home.

AZlawyer
01-23-2009, 11:59 AM
Tra:
BINGO!...You are absolutely correct. The duct tape wrapped around the head says it all.
There would be NO way to remove the duct tape without pulling much of the childs hair out or cutting the hair above the tape..
Who ever put the duct tape around this childs head and face did not intend to remove it...imo

Why would someone use so much duct tape is a question that still haunts me???
IF Casey wanted the baby dead, why wouldn't she put her in the pool and allow her to drown, then call it an accident??? :rose:

Although BJB's theory is the best I've seen so far at pulling together lots of different threads of evidence, I too am bothered by the duct tape fitting into any theory that involves Casey planning to remove it later.

But to keep things accurate, are we sure that the duct tape was "around" Caylee's head? I remember that as a rumor prior to the doc dump, but IIRC the actual documents said there was a "piece" of duct tape over her mouth that covered some hair on both ends.

BondJamesBond
01-23-2009, 12:21 PM
Although BJB's theory is the best I've seen so far at pulling together lots of different threads of evidence, I too am bothered by the duct tape fitting into any theory that involves Casey planning to remove it later.

But to keep things accurate, are we sure that the duct tape was "around" Caylee's head? I remember that as a rumor prior to the doc dump, but IIRC the actual documents said there was a "piece" of duct tape over her mouth that covered some hair on both ends.

...I haven't figured out, nor do I think we'll know until trial, where the duct tape came from...it woulda had to have been handy. A resourceful-George emergency kit in the trunk already?

My latest working is that Casey & Tony may have already been doin' homage to doobie or downin' some beer before they went to Blockbuster. I haven't watched the Blockbuster surveil vid for clues on whether or not they appeared to be buzzin'. If they were already started down that road...by the time Casey went back to check on Caylee ~7:20PM (and apply the final dose) her judgement may've been impaired enough that the thought of having to remove the duct tape never entered her even-when-sober-10min@-a-time-@-best mind. :bang:

AZlawyer
01-23-2009, 01:00 PM
...I haven't figured out, nor do I think we'll know until trial, where the duct tape came from...it woulda had to have been handy. A resourceful-George emergency kit in the trunk already?

My latest working is that Casey & Tony may have already been doin' homage to doobie or downin' some beer before they went to Blockbuster. I haven't watched the Blockbuster surveil vid for clues on whether or not they appeared to be buzzin'. If they were already started down that road...by the time Casey went back to check on Caylee ~7:20PM (and apply the final dose) her judgement may've been impaired enough that the thought of having to remove the duct tape never entered her even-when-sober-10min@-a-time-@-best mind. :bang:

OK, if KC was impaired in some way, I could see her doing that--especially if I'm correct that it was only a "piece" of duct tape and not duct tape wrapped all the way around her head. Then do you think the heart sticker was put on at the same time as a "shhh, don't cry, it's OK, see, it's fun sticker time" kind of thing?? :mad:

I wonder if KC had the stickers handy as rewards for potty training?

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 01:12 PM
if she is guilty of the crime i still think she did the tape to make it look like an aggravated attack. i think she will say and do anything to get away with whatever she has done. i think in about seven years or so, she is going to feel very very ignorant. i know i do but i have never killed another living being before...so... maybe it was a purposeful accident...? if she drowned and didnt get help then it will be the same scenario as now and if she would have gottin help, then they would be like "...well, WHERE were YOU mom...?

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 01:29 PM
OK, if KC was impaired in some way, I could see her doing that--especially if I'm correct that it was only a "piece" of duct tape and not duct tape wrapped all the way around her head. Then do you think the heart sticker was put on at the same time as a "shhh, don't cry, it's OK, see, it's fun sticker time" kind of thing?? :mad:

I wonder if KC had the stickers handy as rewards for potty training?

aww now that makes me sad, as much as it can be true though. ya know...i think kc likes to be called a monster and mean and evil and all that jazz. remember...? "freak show!". she likes that s**t.

Julius
01-23-2009, 02:03 PM
Does anyone know if Lee A's (former) house ever had a search warrant issued on it?

Whyamisointerested
01-23-2009, 02:07 PM
I think that the d.tape was put on after Caylee had passed to either:
Make it look like a kidnapping
or
To stop fluids from leaking out

Lanie
01-23-2009, 02:27 PM
I think that the d.tape was put on after Caylee had passed to either:
Make it look like a kidnapping
or
To stop fluids from leaking out

Ok, I just have to know. I'm not even going to debate it if you answer, but I have seen this over and over again, and I really am interested in how people are coming to these conclusions, so if you don't mind terribly, would you explain your reasoning behind why you think the duct tape was put on after death?
1.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to make it look like a kidnapping?
2.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to stop fluids from leaking out?
TIA
Lanie
Adding as a third question: What led you to believe the duct tape was applied after death, as opposed to before death?
I am interested in answers from ANYONE who has one or all of the above opinions.
TIA
Lanie

seekjustice
01-23-2009, 02:37 PM
...I haven't figured out, nor do I think we'll know until trial, where the duct tape came from...it woulda had to have been handy. A resourceful-George emergency kit in the trunk already?

My latest working is that Casey & Tony may have already been doin' homage to doobie or downin' some beer before they went to Blockbuster. I haven't watched the Blockbuster surveil vid for clues on whether or not they appeared to be buzzin'. If they were already started down that road...by the time Casey went back to check on Caylee ~7:20PM (and apply the final dose) her judgement may've been impaired enough that the thought of having to remove the duct tape never entered her even-when-sober-10min@-a-time-@-best mind. :bang:

My initial problem with this theory was the duct tape. The report states a piece of duct tape was on the mouth....but later goes on to say the duct tape had to be cut from the hair. So I suppose it's entirely possible and probable the duct tape could have moved somewhat during all this time.

My other issue is with Tony's vehicle, I just don't imagine KC would risk putting Caylee in Tony's jeep and don't see how the stains could be decomp and the vehicle not have the same horrendous odor as the pontiac :confused:

Rumpole
01-23-2009, 02:37 PM
[QUOTE=BondJamesBond;3208860]I'm sure you have more questions than I have answers...:)
...and I have plenty more questions myself.

RE: "2.6 days". .......snip

Thanks.
That helps a lot. I still need some more before I'll roll over?

I have no trouble accepting the math and ADD data etc. Happy to incorporate and go along with likely removal from KC trunk at 7-8 pm 19th, certainly that evening with an even wider time range based on TOD.
If I have got it straight, at that time KC removed the body, and/or bagged it in plastic? and transfered it to Jeep.
1. She would be doing that in public parked near Tony's
2. What made her think/realise she needed to bag in plastic. She had not seen the decomp problem yet.
3. She more likely to use garbage bag she already had in trunk, or one from AL, so perhaps less relevance to matching bag with A's house.
4. Why did she do all this? If she had decided to dump the body why not just jump in her car and drive to dump site.
5. Why chose that dump site? No immediate panic and no need to go so close to A's
6. Why did she return to A's area the next day and run out of gas. Was she intending to move the body in broad daylight?
7. To be advised, I'm still thinkin'

seekjustice
01-23-2009, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=BondJamesBond;3208860]I'm sure you have more questions than I have answers...:)
...and I have plenty more questions myself.

RE: "2.6 days". .......snip

Thanks.
That helps a lot. I still need some more before I'll roll over?

I have no trouble accepting the math and ADD data etc. Happy to incorporate and go along with likely removal from KC trunk at 7-8 pm 19th, certainly that evening with an even wider time range based on TOD.
If I have got it straight, at that time KC removed the body, and/or bagged it in plastic? and transfered it to Jeep.
1. She would be doing that in public parked near Tony's
2. What made her think/realise she needed to bag in plastic. She had not seen the decomp problem yet.
3. She more likely to use garbage bag she already had in trunk, or one from AL, so perhaps less relevance to matching bag with A's house.
4. Why did she do all this? If she had decided to dump the body why not just jump in her car and drive to dump site.
5. Why chose that dump site? No immediate panic and no need to go so close to A's6. Why did she return to A's area the next day and run out of gas. Was she intending to move the body in broad daylight?
7. To be advised, I'm still thinkin'


Bold/color by me

Excellent point! To me this shows KC was in the vacinity of the A home and in a hurry/panic to dispose of the body....not much thought put into it IMO.

MUGENDAI
01-23-2009, 02:52 PM
Ok, I just have to know. I'm not even going to debate it if you answer, but I have seen this over and over again, and I really am interested in how people are coming to these conclusions, so if you don't mind terribly, would you explain your reasoning behind why you think the duct tape was put on after death?
1.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to make it look like a kidnapping?
2.) What led you to believe the duct tape was to stop fluids from leaking out?
TIA
Lanie

why on earth would she put it from ear to ear so much so that the hair was stuck and had to be cut, why would she do that intending to pull it off and back and off again alive. but would the leak be worse from her whole body in stead of the mouth, but i have never watched a body decompose...my dad used to work for a funeral home so i guess i can ask him. but it seems to look towards it being put on after the death but there will be no docus to back that up yet so we will have to wait and see. i personally think she wanted to look like a kidnapping cause...well she said she was kidnapped.