Not Waking Burke

[Nedthan Johns]

Trish brings up a very compelling fact that makes sense, she says:

"There is only one reason. There was no need to wake up Burke because Patsy knew. And this one fact leads me to believe that John knew too. If Patsy was the only one who knew why in the world wouldn’t John, the big take charge CEO, run upstairs, grab Burke and say, “What did you hear?”

I agree with this, and is further evidence IMO that John was in fact part of the coverup.


The FACT that neither parent questioned Burke but invited every living soul they knew into their home for support, and sent Burke away, how did they not know the intruder was perhaps hiding somewhere in that house? The first NORMAL reaction would have been to search for JonBenet, search the house in case the intruder was still present. I could understand the need to get Burke OUT of the house, but without questioning him? How did the Ramsey’s know if the intruder may have tried to take Burke first or if perhaps Burke heard this intruder in the home?

It’s strange after so many years discussing this case, some things just hit you like a TON of bricks. I realized that the Ramsey’s did this but didn’t tie in the fact that this is FURTHER proof that ties John Ramsey into the crime and cover up a lot earlier than I expected. Even if John suspected Patsy wrote that note but didn’t know for certain, he would have questioned Burke. He didn’t.

[Britt]

Even if John suspected Patsy wrote that note but didn’t know for certain, he would have questioned Burke. He didn’t.
And not only did he not bother to question the only other person in the home, he snapped at the poor kid - we're not talking to you! - (allegedly ;) ).

Even if they did decide to just call the cops without searching the house, which actually I could believe in those circumstances - you find a ransom note, you panic, you pick up the phone, being careful to tell them of the note's warnings, of course - however, you don't then invite in the brunch group, openly defying the note and risking your daughter's life, and you don't verbally blast your only other kid back to his room when he could HELP.... uh, I mean let him sleep and not pester him with silly questions like "did you see an intruder?"

[Ivy]

Also hinky is the fact that Burke walked right past LE and the Rs' friends on his way out the door to go to the Whites' without asking what was going on. His not asking questions or even appearing bewildered tells me he didn't have to ask what was going on, because he already knew.

Not only did John and Patsy not wake Burke to make sure he was okay and ask him questions (Do you know where JonBenet is? Did you see or hear anything odd during the night? etc.) but they had a fit when Burke was later questioned by a police officer at the Whites'. Also, much later, when Burke was being interviewed by the police psychologist, Patsy sat in the waiting area, weeping hysterically. She must have been scared to death he was going to spill the beans, or at least say something incriminating.

imo

[Show Me]

Well, not only did John NOT question Burke, and let him out of his sight....this was done with the 'suspicious' vehicle in the alley, the one John observed and forgot to tell the police immediately!

Oh wait, John said he watched it a few minutes and decided it was safe, since no activity was seen in that time. (Kidnappers can't hide in a van you know, they are pretty stupid and stand outside with a gun or something.)

John wasn't worried even though the note said the kidnappers were watching him so close John had better not talk to a stray dog. Considering all the people invited into the home that morning...what made John think Burke was safe? Even with an adult with him? The kidnappers were a group.

[Maikai]

[QUOTE=Ivy]Also hinky is the fact that Burke walked right past LE and the Rs' friends on his way out the door to go to the Whites' without asking what was going on. His not asking questions or even appearing bewildered tells me he didn't have to ask what was going on, because he already knew.

Not only did John and Patsy not wake Burke to make sure he was okay and ask him questions (Do you know where JonBenet is? Did you see or hear anything odd during the night? etc.) but they had a fit when Burke was later questioned by a police officer at the Whites'. Also, much later, when Burke was being interviewed by the police psychologist, Patsy sat in the waiting area, weeping hysterically. She must have been scared to death he was going to spill the beans, or at least say something incriminating.

imo[/QUOTE

If Burke heard or suspected anything, he wouldn't have just gone back to bed and gone to sleep.....he was checked, that's it. The focus and panic was on the abduction of JonBenet--at that point in time, the Ramseys didn't have time to think logically--just react. He was told JonBenet was missing....it was wise to get him out of the house asap, to minimize any trauma. Burke was just a little kid----he would have spilled the beans at the White's if he knew anything at all. He was questioned for hours by social services---he was at the Stine's when there was 24/7 coverage. A little kid like that would not be able to manage any kind of coverup. I don't believe the Ramseys had a fit when he was questioned at the White's---however, under the law a parent should have been present. I think Burke was spared a lot of the horror that day and for years afterwards.

[Barbara]

[QUOTE=Ivy]Also hinky is the fact that Burke walked right past LE and the Rs' friends on his way out the door to go to the Whites' without asking what was going on. His not asking questions or even appearing bewildered tells me he didn't have to ask what was going on, because he already knew.

Not only did John and Patsy not wake Burke to make sure he was okay and ask him questions (Do you know where JonBenet is? Did you see or hear anything odd during the night? etc.) but they had a fit when Burke was later questioned by a police officer at the Whites'. Also, much later, when Burke was being interviewed by the police psychologist, Patsy sat in the waiting area, weeping hysterically. She must have been scared to death he was going to spill the beans, or at least say something incriminating.

imo[/QUOTE


If Burke heard or suspected anything, he wouldn't have just gone back to bed and gone to sleep.....he was checked, that's it. The focus and panic was on the abduction of JonBenet--at that point in time, the Ramseys didn't have time to think logically--just react. He was told JonBenet was missing....it was wise to get him out of the house asap, to minimize any trauma. Burke was just a little kid----he would have spilled the beans at the White's if he knew anything at all. He was questioned for hours by social services---he was at the Stine's when there was 24/7 coverage. A little kid like that would not be able to manage any kind of coverup. I don't believe the Ramseys had a fit when he was questioned at the White's---however, under the law a parent should have been present. I think Burke was spared a lot of the horror that day and for years afterwards.

It's amazing how the Ramseys couldn't think "logically" but were able to do so and retain lawyers for themselves AND extended family members. That required some logical thinking. They also seemed to think logically when making arrangements to skip town...oops, I meant to relocate to Atlanta to bury JonBenet. Unfortunately, they refused to return and then they complained that the police weren't calling THEM. I guess they didn't think logically enough to realize that THEY could actually call the police themselves and find out what was going on in the murder investigation :eek:

24/7 coverage at the Stines? Coverage by whom? The Stines? What about immediately after the murder? When they "really believed" there was some "foreign faction" group out to get them?

As far as Burke, he was told JB was missing. Well of course he was. When he was removed from the house, she wasn't "found" yet.

So you don't find it ODD that a little boy saw all this commotion in his house, didn't ask a million questions and just asked for his Nintendo? I don't know a single child, male or female that wouldn't be asking questions and refusing to leave the house without a struggle with so much going on and his sister missing.

Burke was not only NOT spared any anguish, he has received a whole lot more due to his own parents behavior and lies.

Maikai, could you please quote the "law" as it pertains to questioning a child of 9 during a murder investigation? This has been talked about for years and I am not so sure it is illegal to ask a child questions without their parents. If it is, please show us. If it was, why haven't the Ramseys sued the BPD under that broken law? They have sued everyone else in Burke's name, why not them as well if the law was broken?

[why_nutt]

If Burke heard or suspected anything, he wouldn't have just gone back to bed and gone to sleep.....he was checked, that's it.

I disagree. A child learns behaviors from its parents, and Burke had much to learn from his. Both Patsy and John have gone on the record as saying that "just (going) back to bed and (going) to sleep" are exactly the things they have done. You can see this in the stories they've told in DOI and elsewhere. Patsy has explicitly said, when John would wake up in the middle of the night and go into his office to cry (and this was before JonBenet was murdered), Patsy would hear him, but she would refuse to get up and find out what the problem was, or even attempt to comfort her husband when he was obviously in pain.

I will say that again. Patsy herself has said she would hear her husband crying in the middle of the night, and instead of going to him to even try and comfort him, she would pretend to be asleep. John then went on, as the NE transcripts illustrate, to demonstrate that he was fooled by Patsy. He went on the record to say that he believed Patsy was a sound sleeper, and that he managed to avoid waking her up when he was crying in the middle of the night.

I will go out on a limb and say this. Since Patsy could hear John crying in the middle of the night, and yet she refused to get up and acknowledge what she heard, Burke may have also been hearing his own father crying in the middle of the night, and learned from his mother to stay in bed when he heard someone crying or upset. Patsy has taught her son a lesson: when you are an earwitness to a problem, the best thing to do is pretend you did not hear it.

[K777angel]

It is completely illogical to think that were this a TRUE kidnapping and a TRUE ransom note that Patsy and John found that morning, that they wouldn't wake Burke promptly!! Perhaps he heard something or saw something during the night. You would be obsessed at this point of hoping that he DID. Of hoping for ANY clue, ANY sign of her or who took her or what happened.

But not waking Burke falls right into line with alot of other logical things they did "not" do. They did not search their house thoroughly. They did not run outside (this is so important) searching everywhere on their property. They did not RUN to their neighbors begging for someone to tell them any information of anything they may have seen or heard during the night.

They simply sat around and cried and wrung their hands. They even ignored the 'note'. That note was the biggest link to their daughter and because it was THREE pages long it would have taken alot of time to scrutinize looking for clues of WHO might have her.

The decision to shuffle Burke off and away from them and their protection (not to mention police protection in their home and NOT at the White's...)
is one of the biggest clues that they KNEW what happened to JonBenet.

The fact that they were compelled to LIE about Burke being awake that morning (until caught on the 911 tape) - begs the question of WHY the need to lie about HIM? Because they were building on other lies prepared about HIM? They knew he was not asleep that morning. That was why there was no need to "wake" him. And by John's tone of voice (angry) at Burke on the 911 tape - it seems to be that they are distancing Burke away from this crime and that they are very unhappy with him.
I think THAT may be why they shuffled him out of the house that morning in part. Too painful.....

[tipper]

I wonder why the police didn't "wake" him and question him.

[Nedthan Johns]

I don't think it was too long after Detective French arrived that Flet White and JR woke Burke and had him leave the house. But yes, another would of, could of, should of on behalf of the Boulder police department. NO ONE should have been allowed to leave that house

[Britt]

I don't think it was too long after Detective French arrived that Flet White and JR woke Burke and had him leave the house. But yes, another would of, could of, should of on behalf of the Boulder police department. NO ONE should have been allowed to leave that house
Right, Ned, and excellent question, Tipper. Between the incompetent police work the morning of the 26th and the corrupt and incompetent DA's office from then on, Boulder law enforcement really screwed justice in this case.

[Maikai]

It's amazing how the Ramseys couldn't think "logically" but were able to do so and retain lawyers for themselves AND extended family members. That required some logical thinking. They also seemed to think logically when making arrangements to skip town...oops, I meant to relocate to Atlanta to bury JonBenet. Unfortunately, they refused to return and then they complained that the police weren't calling THEM. I guess they didn't think logically enough to realize that THEY could actually call the police themselves and find out what was going on in the murder investigation :eek:

24/7 coverage at the Stines? Coverage by whom? The Stines? What about immediately after the murder? When they "really believed" there was some "foreign faction" group out to get them?

As far as Burke, he was told JB was missing. Well of course he was. When he was removed from the house, she wasn't "found" yet.

So you don't find it ODD that a little boy saw all this commotion in his house, didn't ask a million questions and just asked for his Nintendo? I don't know a single child, male or female that wouldn't be asking questions and refusing to leave the house without a struggle with so much going on and his sister missing.

Burke was not only NOT spared any anguish, he has received a whole lot more due to his own parents behavior and lies.

Maikai, could you please quote the "law" as it pertains to questioning a child of 9 during a murder investigation? This has been talked about for years and I am not so sure it is illegal to ask a child questions without their parents. If it is, please show us. If it was, why haven't the Ramseys sued the BPD under that broken law? They have sued everyone else in Burke's name, why not them as well if the law was broken?

Barbara,

Kids have rights.......they can be represented by an attorney, and the parents should be consulted before they're questioned---the Ramseys didn't make a big deal of the fact that he was questioned without their knowledge---and you'll notice leaky Thomas never said much about that--because there was nothing there. JR said he didn't fault the BPD that first day--there was a lot of commotion going on.

Burke was a quiet kid---it sounds more like he was confused and not really comprehending what was going on, so remained quiet---not every kid is a jabbering pain in the *ss.

The 24/7 coverage was by the BPD--they had someone posted at the Stines around the clock to "protect" the Ramseys. Again, leaky Thomas didn't have to say about the interactions then---because they weren't incriminating.

We all know who and why the lawyers were retained in the beginning---who better to handle things when you can't. When JR made that telephone call to go to Atlanta, it was right after JBR was found---I think he was in shock, and not thinking clearly. JR has stated there were mistakes he made---on the other hand, once he found out he was being targeted as a suspect, he had no choice but to rely on the lawyers. He was not arrested--the BPD could have cooperated on the terms the lawyers set. It was a hopeless standoff from the start.

[Maikai]

I disagree. A child learns behaviors from its parents, and Burke had much to learn from his. Both Patsy and John have gone on the record as saying that "just (going) back to bed and (going) to sleep" are exactly the things they have done. You can see this in the stories they've told in DOI and elsewhere. Patsy has explicitly said, when John would wake up in the middle of the night and go into his office to cry (and this was before JonBenet was murdered), Patsy would hear him, but she would refuse to get up and find out what the problem was, or even attempt to comfort her husband when he was obviously in pain.

JR preferred to be alone with his grief--nothing strange there---some people just don't want someone hovering over them. I find it hard to believe Patsy never tried to comfort him---I think she was just giving him space.

[Islander]

Even if we give the parents the benefit of the doubt and assume they thought that Burke would have voluntarily told them if he had heard something that night, that still leaves the possibility that Burke may have saw something unusual the day before, or the day before that. If he had seen a stranger approach JB one or two days before, should the parents assume that Burke understood the potential significance of that and would just blurt it out without being questioned? I don’t think so.

I also have some questions about John’s movements prior to the arrival of the police. I recognize we all may react differently to a crisis, but I think I would have been very concerned for the immediate safety of what was left of my family after reading that ransom note found in my house. I don’t think I would have left Patsy or Burke out of my sight until the police arrived. Yet, John left Patsy on one floor of the house, Burke on another, while he went to yet another floor to get dressed. It doesn’t seem to me that he had any fear at all that this “foreign faction” was close by.

[Tricia]

Plain and simple.

There is no way in hell any parent, after finding a note saying their daughter was kidnapped, would let their child leave the house without at least asking him if he heard anything in the night.

In reality every single parent, who had nothing to hide, would have dashed up to Burke's room and woke him up and asked him questions.

It is so incomprehensible to think that the only other person in the house was not asked if he heard anything.

The only thing that makes sense is if the Ramseys didn't need to question Burke. They didn't need to question him because they knew.

It's plain and simple.

[Shylock]

The only thing that makes sense is if the Ramseys didn't need to question Burke.
They didn't need to question him because they knew.
It's plain and simple.
Yes Tricia, plain and simple to all but the delusional Ramsey supporters who feel the need to somehow justify all the Ramsey actions which prove they are connected to the crime.

[Barbara]

[QUOTE]Kids have rights.......they can be represented by an attorney, and the parents should be consulted before they're questioned---the Ramseys didn't make a big deal of the fact that he was questioned without their knowledge---and you'll notice leaky Thomas never said much about that--because there was nothing there. JR said he didn't fault the BPD that first day--there was a lot of commotion going on.

Once again, we have changed "illegal" to "should be" consulted when questioning a child. The Ramseys didn't make a big deal because they COULDN'T make a big deal without making themselves look worse than they were, if that is possible. Somebody made a "big deal" out of it because for 7+ years, we have been hearing how the BPD "illegally" questioned Burke, yet now you say they "should have" consulted with the parents. How could they possibly have done that anyway??? Both parents were zonked according to them and couldn't even speak to police. Larry King, yes, but the police? No.

Burke was a quiet kid---it sounds more like he was confused and not really comprehending what was going on, so remained quiet---not every kid is a jabbering pain in the *ss.

A nine year old boy doesn't have to be a jabbering pain in the ass. Asking questions at a time like that would have been considered normal, not a jabbering pain in the ass, although I can see how Patsy and John could have looked at him as a pain in the ass, according to his status in the family. It sounds like he was confused??? No, it sounds like he was either aware of what was happening from earlier on, already knowing what was going on or he sounds quite ABNORMAL! Again, he had his wits about him enough to need his Nintendo before he left. Just more spin

The 24/7 coverage was by the BPD--they had someone posted at the Stines around the clock to "protect" the Ramseys. Again, leaky Thomas didn't have to say about the interactions then---because they weren't incriminating.

They didn't get to the Stines until some time after the murder. I'm talking about BEFORE the Stines. Where was the "hold your babies close" attitude when getting him out of the house that day and the many many days following?

We all know who and why the lawyers were retained in the beginning---who better to handle things when you can't.

Well, nothing like being vague, eh Maikai? We ALL know who and why? Why don't you explain? I certainly don't know. Here we have people who are handling the funeral arrangements, plans to leave Boulder, etc. ALL BY THEMSELVES! The lawyers weren't needed to handle these things. Hell, they didn't even need the "friends, pastor, doctor, etc" to help them make these arrangements, but the scapegoat for everything convenient is that they couldn't handle anything. What bull!

When JR made that telephone call to go to Atlanta, it was right after JBR was found---I think he was in shock, and not thinking clearly.

Again, yet he was thinking clearly enough to make the arrangements himself, and let's not forget, despite what was happening EARLIER, he had the wherewithall to call the pilot and get in touch with his older children, etc. I think that amounts to thinking pretty clearly.

JR has stated there were mistakes he made---on the other hand, once he found out he was being targeted as a suspect, he had no choice but to rely on the lawyers. He was not arrested--the BPD could have cooperated on the terms the lawyers set. It was a hopeless standoff from the start.

Ah, this is my favorite spin of all! Just WHEN did he find out he was being "targeted" as a suspect? And by whom? Who targeted his ex family that he immediately needed attorneys for them? JR admitted he made mistakes? JR also said he understands fully that the family must be cleared first before going outside the circle, yet his actions do not support that statement. He had many choices and chose the wrong one for JonBenet, although the right one for selfish, me, me me parents who just wanted to get on with life 1 week after the murder.

And my other favorite bulls**t: THE BPD COULD HAVE COOPERATED.....

At this stage of the case, I truly believe that many members of the RST don't really believe this crap any more but have to save face by continuing to spin the obvious BS the Ramseys have served up on a silver platter. So very sad.

[lcookster]

Wow- first time I clicked on the link that shows the handwriting analysis and comparison. Looks pretty compelling to me. BTW, I am a 'newbie' on this particular forum section. Can anyone suggest some good resources to get caught up on this? Since we have had several crashes since I joined there aren't as many archives. I've done some 'googling' but if there are succinct summaries you could suggest that would be great. Thanks-L

[Show Me]

Maikai posted:

We all know who and why the lawyers were retained in the beginning---who better to handle things when you can't. When JR made that telephone call to go to Atlanta, it was right after JBR was found---I think he was in shock, and not thinking clearly. JR has stated there were mistakes he made---on the other hand, once he found out he was being targeted as a suspect, he had no choice but to rely on the lawyers. He was not arrested--the BPD could have cooperated on the terms the lawyers set. It was a hopeless standoff from the start.

John had no qualms on sending his son away, with kidnappers out there, to the White's. Yet within a half hour of finding JonBenet's body, he wants to get out of Atlanta?

What happened that made John suddenly decide the whole family was in such danger they needed to leave immediately...yet earlier Burke was perfectly safe to leave with Priscilla?

The RST's arrogant constant chant: THE BPD NEEDS TO COOPERATE WITH US! Not hey...maybe if we cooperate with the police we can clear our names. But noooooooo....it's the mean old BPD who won't follow the Ramsey's personal lawyers and investigators advice.

Edited for typo

[Cherokee]

Wow- first time I clicked on the link that shows the handwriting analysis and comparison. Looks pretty compelling to me. BTW, I am a 'newbie' on this particular forum section. Can anyone suggest some good resources to get caught up on this? Since we have had several crashes since I joined there aren't as many archives. I've done some 'googling' but if there are succinct summaries you could suggest that would be great. Thanks-L

Welcome to Websleuths, L.

Go to www.acandyrose.com for the best website on everything about the JBR case. It has links to all the major resources as well as official transcripts.

Read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, and JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas for details on the case including the initial bungling of the crime scene by the BPD, and the back room Boulder politics that insured the wealthy and well-connected Ramseys were treated with kid gloves AND given case evidence.

It is a frustrating and fascinating case ... but be careful ... it has the ability to suck you in and never let go. :)



IMO

[Nedthan Johns]

It sure does. Which leads me to a little fun…

How long has everyone here been posting on forums concerning the Ramsey case?

For me it started in late 1998 on the Larry King Live forum, shortly after the Ramsey’s appearance. I was on there for about 6 months until they finally shut it down, and luckily I found Justice Watch and was there until that was sold and make the mistake of going over to the double B until I finally made my way to Websleuths. That makes it a total of 6 years. Scary thought!

Does anyone know exactly HOW many forums are now devoted to this case?

Websleuths
Double B
Forums for Justice

Who else?

[Tricia]

Here is a list of what I know.

Crime and Justice
http://p216.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78

Crime News
http://www.crimenews2000.com/cgi-bin/wwwthread/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=JonBenet

Purgatory has a JBR forum
http://forums.delphiforums.com/PurgatoryII/start

There is a new Delphi JBR forum http://forums.delphiforums.com/justicewatch2/messages

Cybersleuths
http://www.cybersleuths.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=1

Ned I am so glad you are back.

[Britt]

We all know who and why the lawyers were retained in the beginning---who better to handle things when you can't.
Right. Those poor devastated Ramseys... couldn't think straight, couldn't lift a fork, couldn't take a **** without their lawyers. So it must've been the lawyers who advised the Ramseys to go on CNN the day after the funeral? Hey, John and Patsy, go on national and international television, introduce yourselves and do your best to turn this case into a media nightmare. Oh and be sure to mention high-profile murderers OJ Simpson and Susan Smith while you're there.

:laugh: He was not arrested--the BPD could have cooperated on the terms the lawyers set.
lol.. Yes, of course, if cops would just let suspects run things, ALL investigations would go smoother. :D

[Britt]

How long has everyone here been posting on forums concerning the Ramsey case?

For me it started in late 1998 on the Larry King Live forum, shortly after the Ramsey’s appearance. I was on there for about 6 months until they finally shut it down, and luckily I found Justice Watch and was there until that was sold and make the mistake of going over to the double B until I finally made my way to Websleuths. That makes it a total of 6 years. Scary thought!
Not quite that scary, Ned, unless I missed a couple years... this IS 2004, isn't it? lol Get out your calculator. :) It has only been four years... since spring of 2000, when the Ramseys' book came out (as well as Thomas's) and they were beginning the media tours, after the GJ had disbanded the prior fall. I know 'cause I was there, too: LKL/CNN forum, then JW.

[vicktor]

How long has everyone here been posting on forums concerning the Ramsey case?

Websleuths
Double B
Forums for Justice

Who else?

I started at webbsleuths in Nov. 2002 till Aug. 2003. Didn't want to pay $50, so have been here starting Aug. 2003.

[Britt]

The RST's arrogant constant chant: THE BPD NEEDS TO COOPERATE WITH US!
Right, Show Me. The Ramseys try to pass off their righteous indignation as an entitlement... figuring if they act like they're that special, people will treat them as if they're that special. They are classic con artists.

[tezi]

By Britt---lol.. Yes, of course, if cops would just let suspects run things, ALL investigations would go smoother.

Gee, just think of how many more people could have been thrown under the bus if the Ramsey's would have been "running" things....

Britt, thanks for the laugh, I needed it after the day I have had...

[Show Me]

Right, Show Me. The Ramseys try to pass off their righteous indignation as an entitlement... figuring if they act like they're that special, people will treat them as if they're that special. They are classic con artists.

Yep...this is what con artists do.

[Maikai]

Once again, we have changed "illegal" to "should be" consulted when questioning a child.

Ok...let's change it back to LEGAL requirement. In the whole scheme of things, the Ramseys didn't make an issue out of it--they were contending with the murder of JonBenet. They had nothing to hide.....what Burke did or didn't say at the time, probably was not utmost in their minds.


A nine year old boy doesn't have to be a jabbering pain in the ass. No, it sounds like he was either aware of what was happening from earlier on, already knowing what was going on or he sounds quite ABNORMAL! Again, he had his wits about him enough to need his Nintendo before he left. Just more spin

And I'm saying a 9-year old child such as Burke did not have the emotional ability or wherewithal to digest what was going on....and the adults around him wanted to protect him.

They didn't get to the Stines until some time after the murder. I'm talking about BEFORE the Stines. Where was the "hold your babies close" attitude when getting him out of the house that day and the many many days following?

I'm talking about when the Ramseys were told they couldn't come back into the house--I forget if it was the Stine's or somewhere else they went to---but the cops were there 24/7. Burke was going to the White's...other people were there, as well as a cop---no need to fear he would be in danger.

Well, nothing like being vague, eh Maikai? We ALL know who and why? Why don't you explain? I certainly don't know. Here we have people who are handling the funeral arrangements, plans to leave Boulder, etc. ALL BY THEMSELVES! The lawyers weren't needed to handle these things. Hell, they didn't even need the "friends, pastor, doctor, etc" to help them make these arrangements, but the scapegoat for everything convenient is that they couldn't handle anything. What bull!

I don't think they handled anything on their own once JBR was found dead. Mike Bynum--a former assistant DA in Boulder, was the one initially that realized the BPD was targeting the Ramseys--was going to hold JBR's body as ransom.


Again, yet he was thinking clearly enough to make the arrangements himself, and let's not forget, despite what was happening EARLIER, he had the wherewithall to call the pilot and get in touch with his older children, etc. I think that amounts to thinking pretty clearly.

They say when someone experiences a shock, the mind takes over, or you'd go stark raving mad----I think JR was going through the motions--Patsy was a baseketcase----both reacted pretty much like their personalities.

Ah, this is my favorite spin of all! Just WHEN did he find out he was being "targeted" as a suspect? And by whom? Who targeted his ex family that he immediately needed attorneys for them? JR admitted he made mistakes? JR also said he understands fully that the family must be cleared first before going outside the circle, yet his actions do not support that statement. He had many choices and chose the wrong one for JonBenet, although the right one for selfish, me, me me parents who just wanted to get on with life 1 week after the murder.
And my other favorite bulls**t: THE BPD COULD HAVE COOPERATED.....

He was smart to get attorneys for everyone. Some of those statements were made in retrospect that you quoted. The Ramseys had no idea on how a criminal investigation works in the early hours---they called the cops---who wouldn't? They relied on the cops to help them....they didn't know what else to do.

At this stage of the case, I truly believe that many members of the RST don't really believe this crap any more but have to save face by continuing to spin the obvious BS the Ramseys have served up on a silver platter. So very sad.

Nope.....no crap---there's nothing there to indicate loving parents all of a sudden turned into sadistic murders, capable of covering up a crime. The prisons are full of psychos that kill and ruin lives-sometimes with little motivation. That's what happened here. Not unlike Princess Diana being killed by a drunk driver--somewhat common theme----we're going to find this was a kidnapping gone bad by an amateur, that lucked out when the BPD made mistakes.

[Barbara]

I don't think they handled anything on their own once JBR was found dead. Mike Bynum--a former assistant DA in Boulder, was the one initially that realized the BPD was targeting the Ramseys--was going to hold JBR's body as ransom.

But Mike Bynum would have to have already been involved to tell them they were being targeted. First they called lawyers because they were being targeted and now it was Bynum who realized it...after they already called lawyers. Which is it?

The prisons are also full of people who had NO indications of being murderers, rapists etc. Yet they are there.

I agree that we will find that "amateurs" committed this crime and lucked out by the BPD blunders AND lots of money to keep them out of prison. But this was no kidnapping gone bad.

[tipper]

From CrimeLibrary

On December 27, the Rocky Mountain News quoted an Assistant District Attorney as saying, "It was very unusual for a kidnap victim's body to be found at home - it's not adding up." According to Charlie Brennan, the journalist who wrote the story, the police had also indicated to him that they held a strong belief that the parents were responsible. Julie Hayden, a television reporter for Denver's Channel 7, also covered the story on the same day and drew the same conclusion. She later explained that from her first exposure to the case, the police had made it very clear that they were not scouring the area looking for "some mad kidnapper" but instead, concentrating their efforts on John and Patsy Ramsey.
From that day on, a clear pattern emerged in the coverage of the case. While police chief, Tom Koby, made little comment, reporters had their own sources, which tended to implicate the Ramseys. At that point, John and Patsy were placed under police protection but were largely unaware of the mounting suspicion against them. One man, however, saw the early warning signs and acted. Mike Bynum, a lawyer friend of John's hired Brian Morgan to act as their personal council. In the same documentary he defended his appointment, stating: -

"It is foolish to blindly throw oneself into the maw of the justice system and to trust the result. One simply must be thoughtful about the way one acts, especially in a case of media attention that reaches the point of near hysteria and especially in a case of media attention which, from the outset, portrays certain people as clearly guilty."

He also defended the need for legal representation: - "If you're guilty, you want to think about having a lawyer, and I want to tell you what, if you're innocent you better have a lawyer - there is no difference."

[Barbara]

From CrimeLibrary

On December 27, the Rocky Mountain News quoted an Assistant District Attorney as saying, "It was very unusual for a kidnap victim's body to be found at home - it's not adding up." According to Charlie Brennan, the journalist who wrote the story, the police had also indicated to him that they held a strong belief that the parents were responsible. Julie Hayden, a television reporter for Denver's Channel 7, also covered the story on the same day and drew the same conclusion. She later explained that from her first exposure to the case, the police had made it very clear that they were not scouring the area looking for "some mad kidnapper" but instead, concentrating their efforts on John and Patsy Ramsey.
From that day on, a clear pattern emerged in the coverage of the case. While police chief, Tom Koby, made little comment, reporters had their own sources, which tended to implicate the Ramseys. At that point, John and Patsy were placed under police protection but were largely unaware of the mounting suspicion against them. One man, however, saw the early warning signs and acted. Mike Bynum, a lawyer friend of John's hired Brian Morgan to act as their personal council. In the same documentary he defended his appointment, stating: -

"It is foolish to blindly throw oneself into the maw of the justice system and to trust the result. One simply must be thoughtful about the way one acts, especially in a case of media attention that reaches the point of near hysteria and especially in a case of media attention which, from the outset, portrays certain people as clearly guilty."

He also defended the need for legal representation: - "If you're guilty, you want to think about having a lawyer, and I want to tell you what, if you're innocent you better have a lawyer - there is no difference."



Over these many years, I have always defended the Ramseys and their choice to get attorneys. They could afford it, and it was obvious that they wanted and needed them. I have also always said that I never faulted them nor looked askew at that choice.

BUT..and it's a big BUT, when you know the authorities are leaning heavily in your direction as the "guilty parents", now you have the best TEAM of lawyers to handle the police and further questioning, etc; why not put the best interests of JonBenet ahead of your own and get that out of the way? Take your lawyers with you to the police station immediately, have your lawyers with you during all questioning, answer all the questions and get yourselves cleared (I refuse to fault the authorities because they initially suspected the parents, that is normal operating procedure) of the crime in a show of support and allow the authorities to begin looking in the right direction?????????? There is no explanation for that except for the Ramseys statements that their mistakes were to listen to their lawyers.

Of course, they refused to listen to their attorneys when going on LKL (self admittedly) and refused to listen to their attorneys when finally going and answering questions much later, yet they listened to their lawyers when it was the most important and crucial time in the case.

Nobody is questioning the fact that the authorities were certainly looking at the family. They were. No dispute. The Ramseys knew it as well as everyone else. No big secret.

With that in mind, get yourselves out of the loop and allow the authorities to look elsewhere. They never did that and then for all these years complained that the authorities thought they did it. Why wouldn't they?

The main reason persons retain attorneys is for the questioning, etc.

They have made all their own choices and will forever pay the consequences for thinking they are above it all (and the law).

[Camper]

My life has not allowed me to read this entire thread yet!

Given the mish mash about whether Burkes voice is caught on the 911 (not hung up call) Johns voice WAS (am I wrong ?)- saying 'WE' are not talking to YOU. Well WHO was John talking to?

In Burkes interview where he commented on the interviewers Rolex watch, Burke responded something to the effect, 'that everyone has secrets', weird response, imop. IF IF I had been 12, (which I actually was - once) I would have been shivering in my Fruit of the Looms, not being evasive with BPD. Of course he had a prevous example of how to handle LE, when no one actually opened the Ramsey FRONT door on the 23rd of December when the Boulder Police Department responded to a STRANGE 911 call. Just talking through the door 'hole' or whatever that communication ability was at the front door.

It is obvious at this point, after literally years of second guessing 'what happened' in that house on THAT night, that there are a number of valid sounding explanations about the strange goings on that could actually be the truth, hmmm.

So far no one is being held in the State prison for murdering this beautiful little child.

Good luck on getting Johns rear end caught in the voting machines of Michigan.

Britt, got a kick out of your comment regarding the 'Brunch Group' being invited over 'THAT' morning! Hey gang remember the excuse for that behavior, "WE" didn't read the whole ransom note". There is that "WE" again!!

[seye]

My life has not allowed me to read this entire thread yet!

Given the mish mash about whether Burkes voice is caught on the 911 (not hung up call) Johns voice WAS (am I wrong ?)- saying 'WE' are not talking to YOU. Well WHO was John talking to?

In Burkes interview where he commented on the interviewers Rolex watch, Burke responded something to the effect, 'that everyone has secrets', weird response, imop. IF IF I had been 12, (which I actually was - once) I would have been shivering in my Fruit of the Looms, not being evasive with BPD. Of course he had a prevous example of how to handle LE, when no one actually opened the Ramsey FRONT door on the 23rd of December when the Boulder Police Department responded to a STRANGE 911 call. Just talking through the door 'hole' or whatever that communication ability was at the front door.

It is obvious at this point, after literally years of second guessing 'what happened' in that house on THAT night, that there are a number of valid sounding explanations about the strange goings on that could actually be the truth, hmmm.

So far no one is being held in the State prison for murdering this beautiful little child.

Good luck on getting Johns rear end caught in the voting machines of Michigan.

Britt, got a kick out of your comment regarding the 'Brunch Group' being invited over 'THAT' morning! Hey gang remember the excuse for that behavior, "WE" didn't read the whole ransom note". There is that "WE" again!!
I think the 911 call on the 23rd is the link that would solve this case; however, that information is not available to us...unless, unless someone talks. I continue to remain hopeful.
What are some of the valid sounding explanations about that call? What has been posted about it in the past? Where can I find the interview with Burke?
Thanks, Camper