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View Full Version : The girls were abducted then what?


SharetheLight
03-20-2009, 04:18 PM
In thinking about this case, it seems we all get hung up on where the girls were abducted and who abducted them. These are all important details but since we've gone round and round with the possibilities why not try to think about what happened next.
Where did they go? It's clear whether they were taken in the mall, outside the mall, on their way home, or at home, they didn't stay there. The abductor had to take them somewhere else. Where did they go? Were they held captive somewhere?
The only evidence that could bring justice to this case would be solid evidence of what became of the sisters. This evidence would have to come from the location they ended up in.
Whether you think Coffey did it, TRM did it, or someone else completely there has to be some thought as to what happened next. Where did this person take them? It would seem they immediately left the Wheaton/Kensington area, but you never know. Stranger things have happened. So does anyone have any thoughts as to where these girls were taken?
Just trying to think things from a different angle.

Motherof5
03-20-2009, 09:39 PM
Well, I feel the only way that we will ever find them is if
a. we get an arrest and/or confession
b. more witnesses come forward with new info
or
c. someone comes across them

I understand what you are saying,but it's difficult to find someone without having some idea of how they came to be missing. As far as what happened to them after they were taken........The worst possible thing that could have happened would be my guess. Finding out who took them is the first step to finding out the rest of the story.

SharetheLight
03-21-2009, 12:12 AM
I guess what I am getting at is trying to figure out what a person who commits this type of crime would do next. Where would they go? This crime is unusual because there were two girls taken. It would be difficult to confine/hide two girls away for too long.
Someone posted a profile for the type of person we may be looking for. If we look at that profile and then think where would that type of person take these girls. From the profile one would guess this guy is not a loner like Hadden Clark. He is socially adept, therefore he couldn't keep the girls with him for too long. So most likely he did not take these girls to his home. Where did he drive with them? I am working under the assumption he had a car because the profile says he has a car. Looking at the profile, it would seem the person who committed this crime would take the girls out of the Wheaton/Kensington area immediately perhaps some distance away, but a place that is still familiar to the perpetrator. But maybe not too far, maybe just far enough that he could be back to help with the search for the girls. If this person committed similar crimes before is there one place he likes to leave all his victims or are they in different places of significance??
Just trying to get into the head of someone who would do this. There has to be something that someone has missed. Maybe something very obvious? I don't believe in the perfect crime. There are always clues, always. The right questions just need to be asked.
I am just throwing out some thoughts, any other thoughts out there?

SharetheLight
03-21-2009, 12:35 AM
The profile I am using to try to determine where "this type" of person would go next is post #38 by Richard in the Potential Suspects and Persons of Interest thread. He compiled a pretty thorough list of possible traits this perpetrator may posess. I don't know how to link posts from other threads, sorry.

Jeb
03-26-2009, 05:46 PM
It seems to me that a 'general rule of thumb' is that a perp like this, never takes the victims any further than a 10 mile diameter. This rule was true with Hadaan Clark when he killed and buried little Mischelle Door.

Motherof5
03-26-2009, 07:10 PM
It seems to me that a 'general rule of thumb' is that a perp like this, never takes the victims any further than a 10 mile diameter. This rule was true with Hadaan Clark when he killed and buried little Mischelle Door.

I think you maybe right about the suspect not taking them too far. I think it would be difficult to keep them calm for too long.Just long enough to get out of sight.

SharetheLight
03-26-2009, 08:59 PM
This is a good rule of thumb, but when I researched the Coffey cases, just the three posted about on this board. In each of those cases the victims were found about 17 miles away from where they were taken. Which isn't too much further than 10 . . .

SharetheLight
04-03-2009, 11:03 AM
Thinking where the perp could have gone immediately after taking the girls, and operating under the theory that a perp will usually stay within 10 miles, then here is where 10 or in some cases a little over 10 miles will get you:

-Gaithersburg
-Olney (to the north)
-Potomac (to the east)
-Beltsville (and most other bordering PG county cities)(to the west)
-DC by way of Chevy Chase or Silver Spring (to the south)

And any other city that falls within the 10 mile radius of these cities.

Wheaton is located by several main roads/highways that could get you out of the area quickly. Especially at 3pm in the afternoon. One could be in PG County or DC within a matter of minutes. And really into VA too.
I believe most likely the abductor took the girls out of Montgomery County and into another jurisdiction immediately. News of their disappearance would start in Montgomery County but take a while to fan out into neighboring jurisdictions. Giving the abductor time . . .

Rhett
04-03-2009, 02:05 PM
How would he have gotten them to stay in the car? He wouldn't have had time to bind them in some way. Do you think he removed all but his inside door handles? I knew of someone who did this once, lol.

wfgodot
04-03-2009, 02:10 PM
I've grown fonder of my Feast of St. Dismas/Easter week "find" from another of StL's excellent threads on this fascinating case. (The kidnapping occurred on the former, on the Tuesday of the latter.) If indeed there is a religious aspect to this case, I think they would have been taken to some place with--at leat in the mind of the perpetrator--a ritualistic significance.

Motherof5
04-03-2009, 08:37 PM
How would he have gotten them to stay in the car? He wouldn't have had time to bind them in some way. Do you think he removed all but his inside door handles? I knew of someone who did this once, lol.

Well, if it was someone they knew,he might not have had to.They may have been ok until a ride home turned into something else,by then they could have been frozen with fear. I've also thought about Steven Stayner.His abductor drugged his juice once he was in the car. He might have offered them a drink,once in the car or told them to drink or else.If this makes no sense,my son blessed me with 3 hours of sleep last night:rolleyes:

Jeb
04-05-2009, 12:23 PM
Once the girls knew they were tricked, they probably would panic & make a lot of noise. However, maybe the perp had a gun, or knife, or a club. Maybe he hit or threatened them, & they settled down with fear. I believe having gotten them this far, he would have been prepared to continue & not sacrifice his 'catch'. Also, if he got them to the beltway, nobody is paying attention to what's going on in other vehicles.

LillyRush
04-05-2009, 07:04 PM
I have a few different thoughts on this.

Going back to the idea that they may have gotten into the car of someone they knew...Could this tie into the idea that maybe the person was an older sibling of one of their friends who happened to be home from college/spring break? Would they have felt comfortable going in the car of a friend's older sibling?

On the other hand, would they have even needed to get a ride at that point? It seems like they were not that far from home when they were last seen, per the eyewitness accounts. That, and the fact that it was a nice day, are the main things that make me question the idea that they voluntarily got into a car.

Also, Katherine had plans to visit a neighbor who had just had a baby. So, they may not have been walking in the exact direction towards their home..that is assuming that Katherine planned to visit the neighbor immediately right after the mall.

The other thing that I've been wondering about recently is, maybe they were hit and then the person who hit them disposed of them in order to avoid charges? What got me thinking about this was Richard mentioning that one of the witnesses said that he saw them walking "normally" down the street, but not on the sidewalk, literally in the middle of the street. Case in point: Jill Behrman, college student hit while riding her bike in Indiana. I believe her bike was found first, but her remains were missing for 3 or 4 years and it took just as long for them to get the perps (yes, more than one) to cooperate. Anyway, just thinking out loud....

Motherof5
04-05-2009, 07:25 PM
I have a few different thoughts on this.

Going back to the idea that they may have gotten into the car of someone they knew...Could this tie into the idea that maybe the person was an older sibling of one of their friends who happened to be home from college/spring break? Would they have felt comfortable going in the car of a friend's older sibling?

On the other hand, would they have even needed to get a ride at that point? It seems like they were not that far from home when they were last seen, per the eyewitness accounts. That, and the fact that it was a nice day, are the main things that make me question the idea that they voluntarily got into a car.

Also, Katherine had plans to visit a neighbor who had just had a baby. So, they may not have been walking in the exact direction towards their home..that is assuming that Katherine planned to visit the neighbor immediately right after the mall.

The other thing that I've been wondering about recently is, maybe they were hit and then the person who hit them disposed of them in order to avoid charges? What got me thinking about this was Richard mentioning that one of the witnesses said that he saw them walking "normally" down the street, but not on the sidewalk, literally in the middle of the street. Case in point: Jill Behrman, college student hit while riding her bike in Indiana. I believe her bike was found first, but her remains were missing for 3 or 4 years and it took just as long for them to get the perps (yes, more than one) to cooperate. Anyway, just thinking out loud....

You always have good ideas.:) I was thinking about your hit and run theory and it made me think of my uncle.When my uncle was 5,he was hit by a car and the couple that hit him scooped him up and took him for treatment.So, this type of thing does happen.My question would be,would there be blood evidence? My uncle left a pool of blood on the street.I guess it would depend on the injury. I've also wondered about the father of one of their friends picking them up,they would probably go willingly.Good point about Kate visiting the neighbor,I'm going to have to think on that.Keep your good ideas coming!!

Richard
04-05-2009, 08:09 PM
....The other thing that I've been wondering about recently is, maybe they were hit and then the person who hit them disposed of them in order to avoid charges? What got me thinking about this was Richard mentioning that one of the witnesses said that he saw them walking "normally" down the street, but not on the sidewalk, literally in the middle of the street.....

This would have to be a pretty remote possibility. A car striking two girls hard enough to incapacitate them would have made a lot of noise and would have attracted the notice of residents.

The two streets that the girls would have been traveling down were Faulkner and Drumm. There are a total of 41 houses along those two streets today - with only 20 feet spacing between them. Most, if not all, of those houses existed in 1975.

The entire route down those two streets has sidewalks on at least one side, and in some places on both sides of the street.

Two witnesses stated that they saw the girls walking that day. One boy, David Reed age 12, said that he passed Sheila and Kate ON THE SIDEWALK, headed east (toward the Mall) on Faulkner. David told his story to police some time between 26 and 28 March 1975. Somehow, he was quoted as saying that this took place at about 7:30 PM. By Saturday, 29 March 1975, newspapers were reporting that police were tending to "discount" David's story because the time was much later than other sighting reports.

The second witness was a boy who police said was "Over 15-years-old". This boy said that when he heard about the "7:30" sighting (the one reported by David Reed), he did not think that his information was important. Then when he heard that police doubted the report, he decided to come forward (on 4 April 1975). According to police, he said he was riding in a car driven by another boy or man, headed west on Drumm between 2:30 and 3:30PM on Tuesday 25 March 1975. He was quoted as saying that the girls were also headed west on Drumm and walking normally in the roadway. He also stated that this was near the intersection of Drumm and Devin. Police withheld this second street sighting from the public for 13 days until 17 April when they released it to the press.

If this "Over 15" statement was accurate and true, there would only have been a few hundred yards more for the girls to travel west on Drumm until they came to McComas, and that was where the path into the woods began. So any hit and run - or any type of abduction would have had to take place in a very short space of time and distance.

It should be stated that while both of these witnesses made statements about the girls, police tended to discount David's statement within a few days, and had their doubts about the "over 15" statement in later years.

SharetheLight
04-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Well if we discount the sightings on Drumm avenue, I suppose the possibility still exists that someone could have hit the girls in the parking lot, or even hit one of the girls, not even hard, but as a way to get them in the car.
Say the girls are walking in parking lot, a car comes and bumps one or both of them enough to cause discomfort. The driver, very apologetic, offers to drive them home so they don't have to walk while injured and the driver will explain and give information to their parents. Only the driver doesn't take them home.
This could make the abduction a random chance abduction, or someone could have been in the parking lot seen the girls go in the mall alone and waited for them to come out.
It would definitely be an easy way to get the girls in the car without a fight.

I really do wonder if the girls made it out of the mall, and if so, how far they made it. I am thinking also that maybe taking two girls, who are sisters, isn't as hard as it seems to have been. If the perp somehow convincingly or forcefully got one of the sisters within his control and threatened to do harm to her, then the other would probably do anything he said to keep her sister from harm.

Motherof5
04-05-2009, 09:50 PM
Well if we discount the sightings on Drumm avenue, I suppose the possibility still exists that someone could have hit the girls in the parking lot, or even hit one of the girls, not even hard, but as a way to get them in the car.
Say the girls are walking in parking lot, a car comes and bumps one or both of them enough to cause discomfort. The driver, very apologetic, offers to drive them home so they don't have to walk while injured and the driver will explain and give information to their parents. Only the driver doesn't take them home.
This could make the abduction a random chance abduction, or someone could have been in the parking lot seen the girls go in the mall alone and waited for them to come out.
It would definitely be an easy way to get the girls in the car without a fight.

I really do wonder if the girls made it out of the mall, and if so, how far they made it. I am thinking also that maybe taking two girls, who are sisters, isn't as hard as it seems to have been. If the perp somehow convincingly or forcefully got one of the sisters within his control and threatened to do harm to her, then the other would probably do anything he said to keep her sister from harm.

Very interesting thoughts. I think I've read about an abduction where the perp hit a kid on a bike just to knock him off and take him. I'll have to try and remember who and when that was. What you're saying makes sense, getting one to comply or threatening one,could make the other go along.Reminds me of the movie "The Geen Mile" the guy is explaining how a man killed 2 sisters.The man said,"He killed them with their love for each other." The perp told one sister,"If you scream I'll kill her" and told the other sister the same thing. Both girls kept quiet out of fear that they would cause harm to each other.

Jeb
04-06-2009, 11:50 AM
I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!

Richard
04-06-2009, 03:42 PM
Good comments and thoughts.

I have been to Wheaton Plaza and although the inside has changed considerably since 1975, the outside area is much the same as it was; same vehicle entrances to parking lots, same walking path, etc.

What struck me was the excellent vantage point exists near the end of Faulkner and what was the back entrance to Wards (now Target). Unlike the massive parking lots which one pictures an most malls, this is a very small area adjacent to the much larger parking area. It is somewhat sheltered and remote. Most people would park in the larger lot, unless they specifically wanted to go into Wards.

Faulkner ends in a "turn-around" just short of the mall perimeter road, and the only way to get to it is at a cross walk from the Wards rear parking lot to a foot path which goes about 20 feet and joins up at the end of Faulkner.

Someone parked in that lot could watch people coming and going, and could determine which children were accompanied by older friends or adults - and which were alone. The cross walk literally passes right next to one of the parking spaces. It would be possible for someone with a vehicle (especially a van) to park next to where the cross walk ended, facing out so that the side cargo door was alongside the usual path of some one crossing the street.

Any kind of ruse could have been used when the girls came past on their way home. This small parking lot would have been the optimum point for his ambush, as he would have been in position, attracting no attention, and could keep careful watch, not only for the girls, but for the presence of any potential witnesses.

If, for any reason, the abductor decided to abort his attempt in the parking lot, (maybe the presence of a witness, a passing vehicle, etc) he could simply let them pass by and then drive out to University Ave, only a hundred yards away, turn left and turn left on Drumm or the next road and be in the area where the girls were reportedly seen walking home. The whole evolution would have taken only minutes.

SharetheLight
04-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Good comments and thoughts.

I have been to Wheaton Plaza and although the inside has changed considerably since 1975, the outside area is much the same as it was; same vehicle entrances to parking lots, same walking path, etc.

What struck me was the excellent vantage point exists near the end of Faulkner and what was the back entrance to Wards (now Target). Unlike the massive parking lots which one pictures an most malls, this is a very small area adjacent to the much larger parking area. It is somewhat sheltered and remote. Most people would park in the larger lot, unless they specifically wanted to go into Wards.

Faulkner ends in a "turn-around" just short of the mall perimeter road, and the only way to get to it is at a cross walk from the Wards rear parking lot to a foot path which goes about 20 feet and joins up at the end of Faulkner.

Someone parked in that lot could watch people coming and going, and could determine which children were accompanied by older friends or adults - and which were alone. The cross walk literally passes right next to one of the parking spaces. It would be possible for someone with a vehicle (especially a van) to park next to where the cross walk ended, facing out so that the side cargo door was alongside the usual path of some one crossing the street.

Any kind of ruse could have been used when the girls came past on their way home. This small parking lot would have been the optimum point for his ambush, as he would have been in position, attracting no attention, and could keep careful watch, not only for the girls, but for the presence of any potential witnesses.

If, for any reason, the abductor decided to abort his attempt in the parking lot, (maybe the presence of a witness, a passing vehicle, etc) he could simply let them pass by and then drive out to University Ave, only a hundred yards away, turn left and turn left on Drumm or the next road and be in the area where the girls were reportedly seen walking home. The whole evolution would have taken only minutes.

But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
Just some thoughts.

SharetheLight
04-07-2009, 12:29 PM
I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!

IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
Lots of IFs here.
I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.

Jeb
04-07-2009, 12:55 PM
You're correct in saying a child snatcher, & potential killer does'nt deserve any CREDIT. He caused much grief, pain, suffering etc. I'd, like to have 2 mins. alone with him.

Motherof5
04-07-2009, 01:06 PM
IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
Lots of IFs here.
I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.

I agree,not very likely at all.A man that didn't even know they'd be there that day,where they lived and what their path home would be, couldn't have had all the info needed to pull that off.

SharetheLight
04-08-2009, 12:11 AM
I've grown fonder of my Feast of St. Dismas/Easter week "find" from another of StL's excellent threads on this fascinating case. (The kidnapping occurred on the former, on the Tuesday of the latter.) If indeed there is a religious aspect to this case, I think they would have been taken to some place with--at leat in the mind of the perpetrator--a ritualistic significance.

Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?

Motherof5
04-08-2009, 04:29 PM
Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?

I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?

SharetheLight
04-08-2009, 04:48 PM
I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?

Well I tend to think if a stranger took them, then is was random. Like the stranger planned to take someone and these poor girls just happened to be who came along. Which is strange on a residential street. On a residential street there are many kids walking around unsupervised (at least in 1975). So seeing two girls alone wouldn't be as strange as seeing two girls at the mall alone. Easier to take the girls from the mall.

If it was someone they knew, then it would seem again that they just happened upon them. Because this was not a routine trip for the girls it was spontaneous.

Okay if it was someone they knew did they get taken because the were Sheila and Katherine Lyons? (in other words stalked)
Or were they taken because they happened to be acquainted with a child abductor (unbeknownst to them) and he came across them that day and couldn't help himself. (unplanned)
Or they were acquainted with a child abductor who planned to abduct that day and came across the two girls which seemed an easy catch?? (planned with no specific victim in mind)

Do you see the difference here, am I making any sense (it's been a long day already)

Like in the Sandra Cantu case, she lived amongst many RSOs and shady people who were very friendly with children. I'd bet that she was familiar with whoever took her, and probably had been to their home. I don't think they took her because they had to have Sandra, I think they took her because she was an easy catch that day.

Ugh it just makes my heart sick!!! I hope they find this person or persons very soon!!!

Sorry that is OT.

SharetheLight
04-08-2009, 05:00 PM
I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?

Bolded by me

This is a good thought. I'll research to see if there were any abandon churches around in 1975.

There is also the big temple, the headquarters for Seventh Day Adventists, in Kensington. There is a lot of land around the temple.

I also think of outdoor type places. Water may be important. Water is very significant in Christianity. The unfortunate thing is there are so many parks and bodies of water just a short drive from wheaton.
The Potomac River and The Chesapeake Bay are a 20 minute drive or less. Not to mention all the wooded areas, mountains, and creeks around the area.
There is the:
C&O canal
Great Falls
Rock Creek Park/Beach Drive area
Sligo Creek Park
Appalachian trails
Catoctin Mtn.
Sugarloaf Mtn.
And quite a few state parks
all within' a 30 minute drive . . .

Richard
04-10-2009, 02:22 PM
But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
Just some thoughts.

I have a 1975 Map and also a much more detailed 1981 Map of the area, which clearly depicts all of the neighborhood streets, including all those I mentioned in my earlier post about the route. Those street locations have not changed at all. Only the wooded section through which the path went (between McComas and Jennings) is different. There are now some houses built in there, some fences have been put up, etc.

I walked the route only a few weeks ago; from the old Wards parking lot, down the short foot path (now black topped) west on Faulkner, west on Drumm, across McComas (still on Drumm) to Plyers Mill Road, Left on Plyers Mill for one block, and across Jennings. While this route left out the foot path through the woods, it was aproximately the same distance overall. Total time at a brisk walk was 15 minutes each way.

Your points about an abductor needing to know the residential roads is somewhat true. It would certainly be easier for him if he had a detailed map, or if he had previously traveled the roads to know which ones connected with University Blvd and/or Georgia Ave. - Those being the best/ fastest escape routes from the area. But he would not necessarily need that information.

The big problem would be that IF he were to sit and wait in the residential area, someone might notice him. And if he tried to intercept the girls on one of those streets AFTER seeing them leave the Plaza parking lot, then he would be running the risk of getting lost in the maze of streets, or having to make it all a very complicated "controlled time of arrival" problem. Again, it COULD be done, but with much more risk of his being seen or of the girls running away to one of the many houses on the route.

You are also correct about the view (of the residential area) that an abductor would have had from the parking lot. Even today, you have to look through trees to see Faulkner, and then you do not see much of it. If the abductor DID NOT know the girls, then he wouldn't know where they lived or what their destination was after leaving the Plaza. He might drive some how to the intersection of Drumm and McComas, and the girls could have gone into any of 41 houses before that intersection.

So, unless he in some way had learned where they lived, or at least how much of the route they walked, then his best place to abduct would be in the parking lot itself.

Balthazar
04-11-2009, 05:12 PM
This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moseley_julie.html

When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.

SharetheLight
04-11-2009, 07:13 PM
This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moseley_julie.html

When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.

Thanks PrincessRose. The similarities in this case are eery. The time of year was a time when the kids were on break from school, 2 days before Christmas, another church holiday. The girls were similar in age. It happened at a shopping center around the same time of day, they left early and planned to be home at 4pm. And all the girls are fair haired.
The difference is there were 3 girls from 3 different families. The pain and anguish spread through three families. I just can't imagine.

But I have to wonder, how someone got 3 girls in a vehicle relatively unnoticed. It sounds like there were some witnesses to some strange behaviors but not enough for anyone to intervene.
This is the work of pure evil.

It certainly seems these cases are connected. I'd love to know the descriptions of the men that were seen possibly forcing girls in vehicles.

SharetheLight
04-11-2009, 07:22 PM
Also interesting in the trio case, it states authorities believe the girls left with someone they were familiar with and were harmed later.

Motherof5
04-11-2009, 07:42 PM
I've been looking at this case on the cold case thread,after reading there,I don't think their case is related to the Lyon girls.It's so very sad though.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11334&highlight=Mary+Trlica

SharetheLight
04-11-2009, 11:29 PM
I've been looking at this case on the cold case thread,after reading there,I don't think their case is related to the Lyon girls.It's so very sad though.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11334&highlight=Mary+Trlica

I think it could be. Nothing makes sense. I don't think the family is involved. Maybe someone familiar to one or all of the girls, but not the family. All the PIs that have been hired are odd. The first one reportedly committed suicide and had all his files destroyed. I read this guy was a media hog. I think he wasn't doing a whole lot of working and when he died he didn't want all of his clients to find out just how much work he wasn't doing.

Then there's the second PI who has all this info that one, or two of the girls are still alive, yet he doesn't say where they are, and none of them has ever returned. I think this second PI is playing the brother. What is his motive, I don't know because it is stated he isn't being paid.
It'd be crazy if it turns out that the second PI is really the killer, and he entered the scene to muddy the waters, and cast suspicions elsewhere.

I still think the cases could be related.

Motherof5
04-12-2009, 12:54 AM
I think it could be. Nothing makes sense. I don't think the family is involved. Maybe someone familiar to one or all of the girls, but not the family. All the PIs that have been hired are odd. The first one reportedly committed suicide and had all his files destroyed. I read this guy was a media hog. I think he wasn't doing a whole lot of working and when he died he didn't want all of his clients to find out just how much work he wasn't doing.

Then there's the second PI who has all this info that one, or two of the girls are still alive, yet he doesn't say where they are, and none of them has ever returned. I think this second PI is playing the brother. What is his motive, I don't know because it is stated he isn't being paid.
It'd be crazy if it turns out that the second PI is really the killer, and he entered the scene to muddy the waters, and cast suspicions elsewhere.
I still think they could be related.
Bolded by me

That would be:eek:.I do have it listed on the similar cases thread.What is the deal with the sister and the polygraph?

Balthazar
04-12-2009, 01:15 PM
Thanks to everyone for sharing information about where this trio abduction case from Ft. Worth is discussed here. It's such a strange, sad story and so frustrating that it has never been solved and no trace of the girls ever found. I have always wondered what on earth could have happened to them.

Balthazar
04-12-2009, 05:15 PM
Bolded by me

That would be:eek:.I do have it listed on the similar cases thread.What is the deal with the sister and the polygraph?

I've seen some indication that she did actually take the polygraph, but there's nothing about the outcome.

I lived in Ft. Worth at the time these girls disappeared and had just entered high school, myself.

I know of one drug dealer who operated in the DFW area in the mid 70's. He would lace joints with a horse tranquilizer called "Angel Dust". Reactions were varied from panic attacks to paranoia. If Julie smoked one of these revved up joints, she may have freaked out and who know what could have happened.

In 1976, 2 Ft. Worth Western Hills high school students DIED from smoking joints laced with Angel Dust. I tried to find a link describing this situation, but I was unable to. I remember it well as news reports about it convinced me to never try marijuana.

The shopping mall, Seminary South was located on the Southeast side of Ft. Worth which, even as early as 1975 was becoming a less than safe area. It had been originally built in 1959 when the area was more middle class, but the area became affected by urban decay and much of the middle class population had migrated to the Southwest part of Ft. Worth by the mid 1970's, leaving the Southeast area's deteriorating houses, and crime behind. However, in 1975, the mall would still have been considered a reasonably safe place to go during the day. The mall is bordered on East side, across a highway, by a very rough neighborhood. Although the mall has been completely redone twice, first as an outlet mall and now re-themed in a Mexican motif with discount retailers, even today, this is not an area that you would want stop in at night. However, in 1975, it was the ONLY mall in town, which is presumably why the girls were shopping there.

http://mallsofamerica.blogspot.com/2006/05/seminary-south-shopping-center.html (http://mallsofamerica.blogspot.com/2006/05/seminary-south-shopping-center.html)

The three missing girls lived quite a distance from the mall - in the Southwest "Hulen Street" area if you want to check this out on a map to get an idea of the distance, it would have taken them at least 20 - 30 minutes to get there from their homes. In 1975, Seminary South was an open air shopping mall - still very much like it was when built in 1959 - so although the stores were bunched together in an island type of arrangement, the inside "mall" area was an open air outdoor space with covered walkways and the shops stood in blocks that opened to the outdoors or were their own unique buildings - such as the Sears store.

:+:MrTT:+:
08-25-2009, 08:20 AM
http://www.crimeandclues.com/92feb002.htm


from the above link...

Careful planning epitomizes the crimes of the sexual sadist, who devotes considerable time and effort to the offense. Many demonstrate cunning and methodical planning. The capture of the victim, the selection and preparation of equipment, and the methodical elicitation of suffering often reflect meticulous attention to detail.
The overwhelming majority of offenders we studied used a pretext or ruse to first make contact with the victims. The sexual sadist would offer or request assistance, pretend to be a police officer, respond to a classified advertisement, meet a realtor at an isolated property, or otherwise gain the confidence of the victim.
Almost invariably, the victims were taken to a location selected in advance that offered solitude and safety for the sadist and little opportunity of escape or rescue for the victim. Such locations included the offender's residence, isolated forests, and even elaborately constructed facilities designed for captivity.


In my opinion the person whom did this was/is a sexual sadist.
and perhaps LE should recheck there list of suspects including Richards list and concentrate on those whos MO pertain/involved/preference for young girls.
It probably/and I am almost 100percent certain it was not, his first time, and the opportunity to abduct two instead of one, he found EXTREMELY exciting.
What a monster!

Snick1946
08-26-2009, 01:00 PM
I have been reading the threads on this case off and on for awhile, I have not read them all but enough to say I believe the girls were abducted in the parking lot by someone they recognized from earlier in the day. I also think they were killed fairly soon afterward, possibly in a couple hours. The perp or perps had a burial site all ready.
No I do not claim to be psychic but have found I have pretty good instincts. Those instincts also tell me that whomever did this is probably dead themselves by now.

Richard
08-27-2009, 12:26 AM
...I believe the girls were abducted in the parking lot by someone they recognized from earlier in the day. I also think they were killed fairly soon afterward, possibly in a couple hours. The perp or perps had a burial site all ready.
No I do not claim to be psychic but have found I have pretty good instincts. Those instincts also tell me that whomever did this is probably dead themselves by now.

I think that being a psychic involves the kinds of instincts and intuitions that you are familiar with.

One could analyze this case for years and consider many scenarios or possible answers, but your conclusions seem to be the most likely regarding the girls.

As to the perpetrator, I would give it about a 50/50 chance that he is dead. If still alive, it is likely that he is in prison for other similar crimes.

He was probably a serial killer who killed many times before and many times afterward. The fact that no forensic evidence was left behind, and the fact that no bodies have ever been found tends to point to a remote (isolated) burial site.

He may have dug the grave ahead of time, but more likely he did it afterward. In his planning he would have chosen the site and had shovel and pick available. There is a risk in digging a grave in advance, because it could be discovered. Having a grave already dug puts pressure on the perpetrator to fill it before it is seen by someone. Or stated a different way, he has that worry hanging over his head of possible discovery.

:+:MrTT:+:
08-27-2009, 10:15 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2431/3863131071_ed28924f14_o.jpg


Just how well has this park been checked over the years 4 missing persons?

Richard
08-28-2009, 12:07 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2431/3863131071_ed28924f14_o.jpg




Just how well has this park been checked over the years 4 missing persons?


Rock Creek Park is quite a large land area, encompassing much more area than appears in the satilite photo link quoted above.

The creek itself actually divides much of Montgomery county and only major roads cross over it.

In May of 1975, there was a large search for the Lyon Sisters conducted in a small portion of Rock Creek Park. The search lasted only one day and involved helicopters and many National Guardsmen. That specific area was more north than your link shows. It was near Muncaster Mill Road.

The search was conducted in an area described by a very famous psychic, Peter Hurkos, who had assisted in the search for the Boston Strangler years earlier.

Some abandoned farm buildings were searched, as well as the woods and fields in the area. Some clothing was found, but John Lyon stated that it did not belong to his daughters.

To my knowledge, that search ended after one day and was never taken up again. There may have been other searches of the Rock Creek Park based on other tips, but I have not read or heard of any.

:+:MrTT:+:
08-28-2009, 12:55 AM
Rock Creek Park is quite a large land area, encompassing much more area than appears in the satilite photo link quoted above.

The creek itself actually divides much of Montgomery county and only major roads cross over it.

In May of 1975, there was a large search for the Lyon Sisters conducted in a small portion of Rock Creek Park. The search lasted only one day and involved helicopters and many National Guardsmen. That specific area was more north than your link shows. It was near Muncaster Mill Road.

The search was conducted in an area described by a very famous psychic, Peter Hurkos, who had assisted in the search for the Boston Strangler years earlier.

Some abandoned farm buildings were searched, as well as the woods and fields in the area. Some clothing was found, but John Lyon stated that it did not belong to his daughters.

To my knowledge, that search ended after one day and was never taken up again. There may have been other searches of the Rock Creek Park based on other tips, but I have not read or heard of any.

ok.
thanks again for responding, i was using Google earth and was searching the area awhile around the home, mall etc.
and that park caught my interest, with it being so close and big, i assume it had been searched back then, but not sure of the details.
Ill keep tabs on it awhile, and see if anything new develops, with any other missing persons..

Quote,.The creek itself actually divides much of Montgomery county and only major roads cross over it..End of quote.

I'm going to search the area again, and look for the bridges, to see if one could toss something over the edge of one of these bridges.
Not from 75, but perhaps more recent but just speculating.

Richard
07-26-2010, 01:39 PM
I wonder sometimes what an abductor would have done in the days and weeks which followed an abduction.

Would he follow the case closely in the news papers, on TV and on the radio?

Would he revisit the scene of the abduction or the scene of other crimes?

Would he drive past the victims' house or school?

Would he attempt to get on camera during news coverage?

Would he join in searches or hang around the area?

Or would he simply forget all about it and go on doing whatever he usually does?

Richard
07-30-2010, 09:21 AM
mdietz47, welcome to Websleuths.

You posted some interesting comments regarding the chase of the tan Ford Station Wagon which took place back in April of 1975.

Although most newspaper accounts mention only the one IBM employee seeing a tan/beige 1968 Ford Station Wagon with what he believed were two girls bound in the back, I recall hearing that more than just that one man chased/followed the car that day.

In the days which followed the news, many more citizens looked for, and even chased tan station wagons, but I am referring specifically to more than one witness chasing the car in question that day - BEFORE it was reported in the media.

mdietz47
07-30-2010, 06:52 PM
You posted some interesting comments regarding the chase of the tan Ford Station Wagon which took place back in April of 1975. Although most newspaper accounts mention only the one IBM employee seeing a tan/beige 1968 Ford Station wagon with what he believed were two girls bound in the back, I recall hearing that more than just that one man chased/followed the car that day. In the days which followed the news, many more citizens looked for, and even chased tan station wagons, but I am referring specifically to more than one witness chasing the car in question that day - BEFORE it was reported in the media.

Yes, the reported witness was 'behind' the car and says he saw a girl in the rear area that was bound and gagged. I was on the passenger side and didn't know of the other witness. I saw Sheila lying in the rear seat and she lifted her head so that I could see her. Two witnesses ,unknown to each other, corroborating the same sighting! Except only one was called.

I saw the car the driver and chased him. However, my 'motivation' is for recovery of the girls. I have NO idea 'why' the MCP doesn't want this case solved. I only know I am a witness in Prince William County VA that saw Sheila 'eye-to- eye'. It was NOT a Maryland car but one from the Blue ridge counties. I've spoken with the Sheriff there and acknowledged that the MCP asked them to 'check-out' some suspects.

I will find an 'angel' to help me solve this. It will be someone who is as dedicated as I am to finding out the WHO and WHY, as I am, but first and foremost is recovery.

Philosophically, Richard, few negative events that occurred in our lifetimes will ripple into the future - Kennedy’s, MLK’s, and Bobby’s assassinations; Nixon’s resignation; the 1st Korean War; Vietnam; now Iraq and maybe the Afghanistan incursions. But on a personal basis how does one deal with the experience of personally crossing the path of evil? Not a criminal or the aftermath of his illegal actions but actually experiencing an evil act at it inception? This is not about him or me; it’s about ‘how’ are our future loved ones to deal with the consequences of our lapses in this life? How are they to survive when we fail to see, recognize and challenge the evil in our own day?

Jeb
07-31-2010, 03:30 PM
I consider myself a witness too, after seeing TRM. I understand how you probably feel. I agree with what you have said about this whole ordeal. I have some questions for you about what you saw, if you don't mind.
1. Did the stationwagon driver run a red lite to get away?
2. How far did you chase him?
3. What was his tag #?
4. What state was the tag issued from?
5. How was the driver dressed?
6. What color was the drivers hair?
7. What road in Va.,did this take place on?
8. How was Sheila dressed?
I don't expect you to remember all of these answers, but if you know some of them, it may help us along.

Richard
08-01-2010, 09:00 AM
...

Yes, the reported witness was 'behind' the car and says he saw a girl in the rear area that was bound and gagged. I was on the passenger side and didn't know of the other witness. I saw Sheila lying in the rear seat and she lifted her head so that I could see her. Two witnesses ,unknown to each other, corroborating the same sighting! Except only one was called.

I saw the car the driver and chased him. However, my 'motivation' is for recovery of the girls. ... I've spoken with the Sheriff there and acknowledged that the MCP asked them to 'check-out' some suspects. ...

But on a personal basis how does one deal with the experience of personally crossing the path of evil? Not a criminal or the aftermath of his illegal actions but actually experiencing an evil act at it inception? ...?

I would add a few questions to Jeb's list:

- Did you see TWO girls in the car, or was it only ONE girl who looked like Sheila Lyon?

- Can you confirm the make, model, and color of the car as described by the IBM man? Or do you recall something different than what was stated in media accounts?

- Can you describe a little background for that day? Where were you headed and what was it that attracted your attention to the vehicle? Who did you contact about it and when?

It is quite likely that MCP contacted other Law Enforcement agencies in Virginia when this sighting was reported. They certainly took it seriously at the time and alerts were put out at least regionally. In fact, MCP was soon inundated with other sightings of possible tan station wagons and they were asking people to STOP pulling cars over and harrassing drivers.

I really cannot answer your question regarding how to handle being a witness, except to say that at one time or another all of us are witnesses to tragedy and crime. Most of us go about our daily lives in a routine manner and even when something out of the ordinary is happening, we tend to think that something rational or normal is occuring. Or we tend to think that it is none of our business.

Then later, thoughts of what we could or should have done come to us. Dwelling on those thoughts can bring on regret, helplessness, and depression. There are different ways of dealing with and handling these feelings and thoughts, but I do not feel qualified to offer advice in that area.

I would suggest that you contact the current officers assigned to the Lyon case and tell them what you saw and remember of that day in 1975. My personal experience in speaking with them leads me to believe that they are reasonable and would welcome any information that you could provide.

mdietz47
08-05-2010, 12:53 AM
To make this discussion easier for us all, I'll upload a number of documents explaining and answering some of your questions. If there is anything I miss, I'll attempt to fill them in later.

But first I want to make it perfectly clear that I have had NO contact with the Lyons family.

I've contacted friends, neighbors and written them, too. Apparently, they accepted their daughters’ unknown fates, dedicated a remembrance memorial to them and then went on as best they could.

I do not fault their response; however, I’m of a different generation that doesn’t easily give up in the face of defeat. If you would Google me, you might find references to my advocacy activities in Fairfax Co. from 1988 to 1992. I learned then that if you find yourself face-to-face with a hungry tiger, you stare directly into its eyes and don’t flinch. If you’re not immediately eaten, you’ll soon lose your fear of the tiger. You still may get eaten but there will be one hell-of-a-fight to see who wins.

I’ve learned to listen to experts, doctors and authority figures then ‘critically’ consider their facts and arguments. In the end they’re just men/women with an educated brain the same as mine, they may be right and they may be wrong that’s for me to decide, not them.

I have a motto, “Experts launched the Challenger when all the dummies said, ‘don’t it will blow up if you do!’”

I have little faith in ‘authoritarian’ man even they put their pants on backwards sometimes.

marshall

mdietz47
08-05-2010, 01:21 AM
This is from the 35th Anniversary of my sighting...

I'm sure you’re all can understand that the Lyon’s sisters investigation was botched a long, long time ago.

Not to criticize but to recognize that even today, as demonstrated by the confusion around the DC sniper case, law enforcement can't find an unknown perpetrator in sea of suspects.

The Lyon abduction did NOT play-out exactly as reported do to some confusion and preconceived notions on 'what' kind of suspect law enforcement was looking for.

Unfortunately their best break was bungled -- it happens -- and the only opportunity to find the girls and clear the case 10 days after their disappearance was lost.

A reported sighting by an IBM executive (I assume a manger) was thoroughly investigated by all agencies and cleared as not creditable.

Unfortunately, a second independent eyewitness also reported the same sighting at the same place at the same time - a corroborating witness? (I know of a third now who will not come forward.)

Unfortunately, I never got a callback on my report and after the FBI dismissed whomever they interrogated I had no reason to believe they would believe me either.

What we all seem to forget is that law enforcement is about catching the guilty perpetrator not rescuing the alleged victim.

How many abductees have they ever 'recovered' without being led to them by the public? Except on TV, none that I can remember in a lifetime.

So how are these two are ever to be found if what little if any physical evidence the investigators have is NOT shared with the public?

Even today after 35 years, come next Friday, this case is sealed, stone cold dead.

I no longer believe they don't want a solved case; they just expect those of us who are witnesses to die off so it can be buried forever.

But, I have the memory of that day and what I saw and what I reported burned into my memory, along with the day of the murders of JFK, MLK and Bobby, the Challenger and World Trade Center disasters.

Who doesn't remember exactly where they were then and what they saw and heard in those moments?

Still no one wants to the truth without knowing where that truth might lead.

All their suspects have proven to be just that - suspects not perpetrators.

The over zealous need for law enforcement to convict not investigate the facts, here in North Carolina, has led us to create an Innocence Court to right the unjustified wrongs of law enforcement's over-reaching to convict without proof of guilt.

So now that the 'supposed' prime suspects have folded there is nothing left for investigators to do but push this case aside...

However...

It is a miracle when a missing child is found alive after 18 years but Mary Lyon’s two little girls aren't coming home tomorrow.

Sadly, in this age where it takes 5 minutes for ABC, CBS and NBC to announce a nationwide Amber Alert, these two sisters never had the benefit of a serious investigation, the advantage of modern technology or even a public reminder on milk cartons that they are still missing.

If you are old enough to remember, this case was as terrorizing to families in the DC suburbs as the recent DC Sniper.

For 10 days, the Montgomery County Police, all the state and local police, and the FBI were on this case doing all humanly possible to get a break.

Problem was they had not a single shred of physical evidence, no sightings, no known possible motive, no probable suspects - nothing.

Who would snatch two adolescent sisters from a suburban street in broad daylight and leave nothing?

The perfect crime - never solved - never a real suspect; except, 10 days later...

Two independent witnesses reported seeing the girls on Monday morning, April 7th, at a stop light in downtown Manassass, Virginia.

Both promptly reported their sighting and gave physical descriptions of the girls, the car and the driver to the Montgomery County police just as the major news networks had drilled into everyone for the past 11 days.

Apparently, the FBI interrogated one of the witnesses with everything they had at their disposal including lie detection.

Published in Wednesday's Washington Post, the FBI decided his reported sighting was not credible, we could all stop looking for tan station wagons with Maryland plates and they went back to looking in Montgomery County.

A sad, tragic story with no ending, it just disappeared into the dust of history as the Nixon resignation and the CIA investigations at the conclusion of the Vietnam War took over as the big evening news stories.

Then almost 30 years later a detective on the Montgomery County Police cold case squad called me at home on Saturday morning.

He asked if he could ask me a few questions.

I said, "Sure, why not?" I worked in Gaithersburg in mid ’83 and don’t remember committing any offenses that got their attention.

He wanted to ask me about my report from April 7th 1975 about sighting the Lyon’s girls.

I was shocked of course. I’d purposely not though about it for over 30 years but I still remember it as fresh as if it were that morning.

The officer went on to ask me to repeat all I remembered about what I had reported.

After 5 minutes or so, he responded that I had been consistent with about 85-90% of what I had reported in ’75.

He asked, “Why did I say the car was a ’72 Ford Torino squire wagon when the other witness reported it as a late 60’s Falcon wagon”.

Obviously because I knew the difference, my neighbor at the time had an early 70’s Torino and as a kid my family had a squire wagon and the passengers side I saw had that fake wood covering.

Besides, I looked directly across from my driver’s seat into the right rear passenger window and directly into Sheila’s eyes.

He asked, ‘Why did I say it was a Virginia car not a Maryland one, as reported?”

I didn’t see the plate. I looked at the driver and in the lower center of the windshield was a county personal property tax sticker and it wasn’t from a suburban county. All of Maryland’s stickers are all on the extreme left lower corner of the windshield.

Note: I’ve spoken with the _ of _ County VA, about the County stickers in 1974-5. She acknowledged that they had a plain light-colored background with a red silhouette of the Courthouse in the center.

I don’t recall if I told him at the time or later on another call, that the car wasn’t tan, it was a cream color and repainted. The interior color was blue and didn’t match with what Ford used in their light or white cars at the time.

That’s about all we covered during the call, he thanked me and asked me to call if I recalled anything more of significance.

I did call or attempt to call him a few times but never made contact. Later I called the Montgomery County police directly but she didn’t like my attitude at the time because I wouldn’t accept that they were looking into it and they’d call if they felt they needed my help.

I now know more than when the officer called and it’s disturbing what so little effort been made to find the girls. They know ‘where’ they were taken; they know Sheila, at least, was perceptive and determined enough to get one message out that was recovered a year later by the FBI.

Note: The girls were taken on March 25th, sighted in Manassass on April 7th and a note was recovered from the Rappahannock River near Fredericksburg the following spring.

The hydrology of the Rappahannock river basin experiences the greatest stream flow in April and not in the fall as might be expected.

The Shad Run on the Rappahannock River at Fredericksburg occurs every late-March/early April and attracts hundreds of fisherman to its banks. So the possibility of recovering an object from the Rappahannock at that time is not unreasonable.

What individual has such power over, not one, but two adolescent girls that he can steal them off the street without a cry or a scuffle?

Why these two and not some other child?

What individual has such power over two adolescent girls that he can keep them in captivity in a metropolitan suburb for over 10 days before making a move?

Why Manassass and why on that Monday morning?

How after being taken, held, moved to a remote location and actually getting a cry for help out does the FBI and the Montgomery County police refuse to divulge any evidence or information on anything they know?

It’s now over 35 years ago, our serial killers and sex offender’s stories get made into TV movies sooner than that.

Who is it and what is it that requires such state secrecy?

All I ask is for help to find the girls and bring them home to their mother. Mary Lyon deserves noting less than our very best effort to do that much.

helpfulcharlie
08-06-2010, 01:22 PM
I never forgot. I grew up in Wheaton. They were not much older than me at the time. I want to know what happened.

I never heard the part about the note found near Fredericksburg. Can you point me to background info on that?

mdietz47
08-07-2010, 03:02 AM
So how do I answer so many questions all at once? For some, I have personal knowledge. For some I have to take others statements as truthful because they have no reason to fabricate.

1. Did the station wagon driver run a red light?

Yes. On Monday morning on at about 8:30am on April 7th, 1975 on the way to work at IBM Manassas, I stopped in the right-hand lane of Church St at its intersection with Grant Ave. I was late to work, so to speak, having come down Rt 28 from Reston instead of my usual route out I-66 to RT-234 S.

I stopped at the light in the right-hand lane of Church St, expecting to turn right onto Grant Ave and then cut through the County offices on Lee Avenue back to Center Ave to IBM on Godwin Dr. (Go to Google, Manassas VA and you’ll be almost be here) However, what you don’t see is that Church St did not go straight through to Center St (Rt 28) in 1975. That didn’t happen until later when they built the new governmental center.

So, I stopped the red light and as I waited I looked to my left. In the rear passenger seat, I saw a girl’s legs lying across the rear seat. I could only see her shoes (black strap low-heels), white anklets and a plaid skirt (blue, gray with some red threads). I thought it strange that at 8:30AM she wasn’t already in school. And that if she was sick enough to be late, they were headed in the wrong direction to be either headed for school to the hospital,

At that moment, she raised her head up into the rear passenger window. First, I saw her straw-blond hair, then her light-skin complexion forehead, then and her brilliant blue eyes in her circular-rim glasses. Some thing was seriously wrong! I glanced at the driver; he was staring into his rear view mirror. Then instantaneously, the driver took off against the red light, pulled a square 90-degree right-turn into the middle lane of Grant Ave and was gone!

“What the hell just happened?? Did I just see what I thought I did? What the hell do I do?” So for a few seconds I hesitated, and then bang I was after him! But?

I expected him to take-off up Grant Ave toward Sudley Rd (Rt 234) but he did less than a block and then made a right onto Barlow Pl. I ran the red light to the right after him, looked to the left to see if he’d cut across to one of the parking entrances for the County workers, then when I looked back to my right I saw his brake lights on Barlow Pl as he completed an around-the-block back to Church St. And I was screwed!

I missed the intersection, stopped in the right lane – do I backup to the intersection, turn around in the street or pull-up on the sidewalk? No, I choose to continue up to the next intersection and go on around the block after him. There wasn’t another intersection to the right for two blocks then the first right didn’t intersect with Barlow. I was screwed! I’d missed him and wasn’t going to find him now.

So I went on to work. Went directly to my office in the 110 Building, looked up the number for the Montgomery Co Police in the White Pages and called in to report what I had just seen.

SharetheLight
08-08-2010, 01:15 PM
welcome mdietz47 you've posted some interesting information.
i agree that at this point the focus should be bringing these girls home.

was there any sign of kate in the car?

you've posted a lot of info that I am trying to keep straight. so both you and the reported witness both worked at IBM the morning of the sightings or have i confused something.
and you are aware of one more witness who does not wish to come forward? did he/she work for IBM as well?

it isn't so important where you all worked, simply that you worked together, i was just thinking that maybe there may be other witnesses that didn't work for IBM. maybe you came to know of the witnesses you know of because of the shared workplace.

if you have an idea where the girls are, i hope you find someone who will listen and cooperate with your efforts to bring them home. they've been away too long.

thanks again for your postings. it's given me some different things to think about.

mdietz47
08-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Welcome mdietz47 you've posted some interesting information. I agree that at this point the focus should be bringing these girls home.

Thank you, Richard,

? Was there any sign of Kate in the car?

I only saw Sheila in the rear passenger window. I understand that the ‘other’ witness saw a pre-teen girl bound at the hands and mouth in the rear of the wagon. I don’t think he could have seen Sheila in the rear passenger seat, so it must have been Kate. And I didn’t see anyone in the rear as he turned the corner so they must have been thrown down by his acceleration and maneuvering to get away.

? So both you and the reported witness worked at IBM the morning of the sightings or have I confused something.

No, you’re not confused. I guess we both worked at IBM but at the time. IBM must have had 2-3-4,000 people working there in 3 separate divisions in multiple work areas and maybe 7 separate buildings. I don’t consider it unusual that two individuals unknown to each other at IBM could have independently experienced the same observation.

? And you are aware of one more witness who does not wish to come forward?

Yes, through a mutual friend from that time-period. Now that I’ve come forward with what I saw, my friend has stated that another friend of hers has stated for years that she also witnessed what she believes was the Lyon’s sisters on that morning. Whether she also worked at IBM. I have no idea; however, I understand that this witness has refused to allow me to contact her or to contact me. I don’t find that ‘uncooperative’ in the least, it’s been 35 years that she’s lived with this memory and to be reluctant to open herself up to intrusion and cross-examination is understandable. I hope to retrieve from our mutual friend a synopsis of that sighting and I’ll know if it’s valid or not. There is not reason, at present to push her to come forward.

? Did he/she work for IBM as well?

I have absolutely no idea; however, our mutual friend had no connection with IBM so it’s as likely that this witness also has no connection with IBM. IBM didn’t take over the town, they had a relatively small location there.

? It isn't so important where you all worked, simply that you worked together; I was just thinking that maybe there might be other witnesses that didn't work for IBM.

Absolutely, that is my exact point! The MCP and the FBI were so quick to declare the Manassas sighting as ‘non’ relevant that the positional witnesses from that point forward “went to the mattresses’. They didn’t want to be interrogated and ‘dragged over the coals’ of public opinion to then be dismissed as another loony bird sighting.
? Maybe you came to know of the witnesses you know of because of the shared workplace.

Nah…

? If you have an idea where the girls are,

Not ‘if’? I do.

But to gain the cooperation of those that know or those that have the evidence necessary to locate them is to invite a turf ‘control’ war. I said, I don’t trust those agencies that screwed this up. The girls will be found sooner or later or by those that follow. I have personally been to the VA county where they were taken a half-dozen times and have contacted those that have the means to find out ‘what’ happened, The ‘problem’ is that ‘we’ cannot find out what is ‘already’ known or suspected. As sure as the gates of heaven will open on that day, ‘those-in-the-know’ are not going to publically share the Lyons file. The close as I expect to get them is the image of the three evidence boxes in the Montgomery County Police cold-case trailer shown by NBC Washington.

? I hope you find someone who will listen and cooperate with your efforts to bring them home.

I’m looking.

Thanks again, Richard. You too are a link in the endless human chain that through our common efforts will return Sheila and Kate to their family.

mdietz47
08-09-2010, 06:19 PM
Welcome mdietz47 you've posted some interesting information. I agree that at this point the focus should be bringing these girls home.

Thank you, Richard,

? Was there any sign of Kate in the car?

I only saw Sheila in the rear passenger window. I understand that the ‘other’ witness saw a pre-teen girl bound at the hands and mouth in the rear of the wagon. I don’t think he could have seen Sheila in the rear passenger seat, so it must have been Kate. And I didn’t see anyone in the rear as he turned the corner so they must have been thrown down by his acceleration and maneuvering to get away.

? So both you and the reported witness worked at IBM the morning of the sightings or have I confused something.

No, you’re not confused. I guess we both worked at IBM but at the time. IBM must have had 2-3-4,000 people working there in 3 separate divisions in multiple work areas and maybe 7 separate buildings. I don’t consider it unusual that two individuals unknown to each other at IBM could have independently experienced the same observation.

? And you are aware of one more witness who does not wish to come forward?

Yes, through a mutual friend from that time-period. Now that I’ve come forward with what I saw, my friend has stated that another friend of hers has stated for years that she also witnessed what she believes was the Lyon’s sisters on that morning. Whether she also worked at IBM. I have no idea; however, I understand that this witness has refused to allow me to contact her or to contact me. I don’t find that ‘uncooperative’ in the least, it’s been 35 years that she’s lived with this memory and to be reluctant to open herself up to intrusion and cross-examination is understandable. I hope to retrieve from our mutual friend a synopsis of that sighting and I’ll know if it’s valid or not. There is not reason, at present to push her to come forward.

? Did he/she work for IBM as well?

I have absolutely no idea; however, our mutual friend had no connection with IBM so it’s as likely that this witness also has no connection with IBM. IBM didn’t take over the town, they had a relatively small location there.

? It isn't so important where you all worked, simply that you worked together; I was just thinking that maybe there might be other witnesses that didn't work for IBM.

Absolutely, that is my exact point! The MCP and the FBI were so quick to declare the Manassas sighting as ‘non’ relevant that the positional witnesses from that point forward “went to the mattresses’. They didn’t want to be interrogated and ‘dragged over the coals’ of public opinion to then be dismissed as another loony bird sighting.
? Maybe you came to know of the witnesses you know of because of the shared workplace.

Nah…

? If you have an idea where the girls are,

Not ‘if’? I do.

But to gain the cooperation of those that know or those that have the evidence necessary to locate them is to invite a turf ‘control’ war. I said, I don’t trust those agencies that screwed this up. The girls will be found sooner or later or by those that follow. I have personally been to the VA county where they were taken a half-dozen times and have contacted those that have the means to find out ‘what’ happened, The ‘problem’ is that ‘we’ cannot find out what is ‘already’ known or suspected. As sure as the gates of heaven will open on that day, ‘those-in-the-know’ are not going to publicly share the Lyons file. The close as I expect to get them is the image of the three evidence boxes in the Montgomery County Police cold-case trailer shown by NBC Washington.

? I hope you find someone who will listen and cooperate with your efforts to bring them home.

I’m looking.

Thanks again, Richard. You too are a link in the endless human chain that through our common efforts will return Sheila and Kate to their family.

eachandevery
08-10-2010, 12:54 PM
I do not mean to be rude when I say this, as I've only been reading about this case sporadically and don't know all the details. I have no idea about turf control war or whatnot, but if you know exactly where those girls are, wouldn't the decent thing to do be to contact their parents? I'm not sure if the parents have since passed away, but if they haven't, I would definitely attempt to make contact. I'm sure they've been contacted by many people who have not had good intentions or any knowledge whatsoever about the case, but you seem to have very detailed information that might convince them to listen.

It's been a long time since they've been gone, and it sounds like the parents have done their best to move on, but if I were them, I would want to find my children. I can't imagine any parent who would feel otherwise. Would the parents not be able to then use that information to put pressure on the authorities? Heck, if it were me, and I knew where my abducted children were located, I would go there myself and do the work. It's crazy to me that their location is known, yet nobody is doing anything about it. What, exactly, is to be gained from not solving this case?

Again, this post is not meant to be an attack. I'm just genuinely baffled about you having all of this information, and the parents (I assume) remaining in the dark.

mdietz47
08-12-2010, 05:38 PM
"I do not mean to be rude when I say this, as I've only been reading about this case sporadically and don't know all the details. … wouldn't the decent thing to do be to contact their parents?


Again, this post is not meant to be an attack. I'm just genuinely baffled about you having all of this information, and the parents (I assume) remaining in the dark. "

I did and I have.

Even today it can be difficult to contact someone who does not want to be bothered. I know where the Lyon’s family home is but I’m not about to go knock on the door to say, “Hi! I saw Sheila after she disappeared.” I tried to find a phone number of an intermediary friend or acquaintance that would be willing to ask if the Lyon’s would contact me

Cold-calling a stranger like that is ‘tense’; I had no idea what their response would be. But after waking up half the neighbors of the people named ‘Lyon’ in Montgomery County, finally did reach an actual neighbor who had been a little girl when they disappeared. We spoke briefly, I explained why I wished to contact them, that I had no pre-conditions or expectations but only wanted them to be aware that someone had really tried to intervene and there still is hope to find out the ‘what happened’ part. She never returned my call and when I tried to call back my number was blocked. The same thing happens if you try any of the numbers listed for the entire Lyon family.

Actually, they still own the Plyers Mill Rd home and probably still live there. So I wrote them a letter and sent a copy to each of the family members addresses. Got no response and one return out of 4 letters. Nor one from NCMEC.

I said:

__ ___ __
Cary NC


Dear Mary,

I never thought my search for your daughters would come to this – having to write to you after so many years to explain my part in the tragedy of their abduction and disappearance.

My greatest regret is, I believe that your girls did not have to become lost if only law enforcement, the FBI and the MCP, had been more attentive in their response to their sighting in Manassas the morning of April 7, 1975.

I am one of two witnesses who reported seeing the girls on that Monday morning at a stop light in downtown Manassas, Virginia.

We both promptly reported their sighting and gave physical descriptions of the girls, the car and the driver to the Montgomery County police just as the major news networks had drilled into everyone for the previous 11 days.

The reported sighting by an IBM executive (manger) was thoroughly investigated by the FBI. By Wednesday, the FBI decided his reported sighting was not credible. We could all stop looking for tan station wagons with Maryland plates and they went back to looking in Montgomery County.

A heartbreaking end to an early, hopeful break…

As the second independent eyewitness, I reporting the same sighting at the same place at the same time and I could have corroborate his statements. Unfortunately, I never got a call back on my report and after the FBI dismissed the “IBM executive” I had no reason to believe they would believe me either.

The investigators never had a shred of physical evidence, no sightings, no known possible motive, and no probable suspects - nothing. The perfect crime - never solved - never a real suspect; except...

Almost 30 years later a detective on the Montgomery County Police cold-case squad called me on a Saturday morning at my home in Cary, North Carolina.

He asked if he could ask me a few questions.

I said, "Sure, why not?" I had worked temporarily at IBM Gaithersburg in ’83.

He wanted to ask me about my reported sighting of the Lyon’s sisters from April 7, 1975. I was shocked, of course, I’d purposely not thought about it for over 30 years but I still recall it as fresh as if it were that morning.

The officer went on to ask me to repeat all I remembered about what I had reported.

After 5 minutes or so, he responded that I had been consistent with about 85-90% of what I had reported in 1975.

He asked, “Why did I say the car was a ’72 Ford Torino squire wagon when the other witness reported it as a late 60’s Falcon wagon”.

(Note: the Falcon and Torino for 1971-73 shared the same body)

I replied, “Because I knew the difference, my neighbor at the time had an early 70’s Torino and as a kid my family had a squire wagon”.

Besides, I had looked directly across from my driver’s seat into the right rear passenger window and saw Sheila’s face; the door had that fake wood covering.

He asked, ‘Why did I say it was a Virginia car and not a Maryland one, as reported?”

“I didn’t see the plate, I looked at the driver and in the lower center of the windshield was a county personal property tax sticker and no inspection sticker and it wasn’t from a suburban Virginia county. All of Maryland’s stickers were all on the extreme left lower corner of the windshield.”

(Note: I’ve spoken with the Treasurer of _ County VA, _ _ about the County stickers in 1974-5. She acknowledged that they had a plain light-colored background with a red silhouette of the Courthouse in the center.)

That’s about all we covered during the call, he thanked me and asked me to call if I remembered anything more of significance.

I don’t recall if I told the cold case officer at the time or later on another call, that the car wasn’t tan, it was a cream color and repainted. The interior color was blue and didn’t match what Ford used in their light or white cars at the time.

Though he didn’t ask me anything about Sheila’s appearance, I do recall that what first caught my attention was the appearance of a young girl’s legs lying across the rear seat. She was wearing a blue-grey plaid skirt like those from a parochial school. I thought it odd at that time of day for her not to be in school, maybe she was sick?

I did attempt to call the cold case officer a few more times but never made contact. Later I called the Montgomery County police directly but the on-duty didn’t like my attitude at the time because I wouldn’t accept that they were looking into the case and they’d call if they felt they needed my help.

I know more now than when the officer called and it’s disturbing to me that so little effort has been made to find the girls. The MCP know ‘where’ they were first taken; they know Sheila, at least, was perceptive and determined enough to write one plea that was recovered a year later by the FBI.

(Note: The girls were taken on March 25th, sighted in Manassas on April 7th and Sheila’s note recovered from the Rappahannock River near Fredericksburg the following Spring 1976.)

(Note: The hydrology of the Rappahannock river basin experiences the greatest stream flow in April and not in the Fall as might be expected.)

(Note: The Shad Run on the Rappahannock River at Fredricksburg that occurs every late-March/early April attracts hundreds of fisherman to its banks. So the possibility of recovering an object from the Rappahannock at that time is not unreasonable.)

Not to criticize but to recognize that even today, as demonstrated by the confusion around the DC sniper case, law enforcement can't find an unknown perpetrator in a sea of suspects. Unfortunately the best opportunity to find the girls was missed 10 days after their disappearance.

How many abductees have ever been 'recovered' without being led to them by the public? So how are your two girls ever to be found without sharing what little, if any, physical evidence the investigators have with the public? Even today after 35 years, come next Friday, this case is still sealed.

But, I have this haunting memory of that morning and what I saw and what I reported burned into my memory, along with the events of the day of the murders of JFK, MLK Jr and Bobby, the Challenger and World Trade Center disasters.

With all of their suspects now proven to be just suspects and not perpetrators, there is nothing left for investigators to do but set this case aside...

However...

It is truly a miracle when a missing child like, Jaycee Lee Dugard, who was 11 when abducted in 1991, is found alive and returned to her family after 18 years.

Sadly, in this age where it takes 5 minutes for ABC, CBS and NBC to announce a nationwide Amber Alert, your two girls never got the benefit of a serious investigation, the advantage of modern technology or even the public reminder on milk cartons that they are still missing.

After being taken, held, moved to a remote location and actually getting a note out asking for help, why, to this day, does the FBI and the Montgomery County Police refuse to divulge any evidence or information on anything they know?

I will be in ___, VA, Wednesday–Friday, March 24–26, doing all that I can to find anyone who might recall sighting the girls then or as adults later.

I don't believe they were randomly taken but were abducted for another reason similar to those of the recent recoveries in California in the past few years.

Thank you, for listening. I will always carry the personal guilt for failing to save your daughter, Sheila. I am the driver who also jumped the red light in pursuit of the car carrying her away. That driver was more perceptive than I was because he made a second immediate right turn where I expected him to make a run for it. By the time I could get stopped after his second turn, I had passed through the intersection and lost him.

Your daughter’s abductions have weighed heavily on my conscience for the many years. I have a family of my own and I regret that the MCP did not more seriously consider my reported sighting of your daughter at that stoplight in Manassas.

Please accept my heartfelt apology to you and your family. I did all that I could do at the time. When I saw Sheila’s face, rise up from the back seat of that car and look directly into my eyes all those years ago, I felt immediately there was something terribly wrong. Upon arriving at IBM, I called the MCP within 10 minutes to report what I saw.

Sincerely,


Marshall
919-__-____
_@bellsouth.net

cc:
John Walsh

SharetheLight
08-13-2010, 04:28 PM
i mean no disrespect when i suggest this as I cannot imagine witnessing a tragic event or a link in a tragic event and then feeling helpless or feeling brushed to the side by authorities.
I appreciate the need to divulge the details of the day to Mrs. Lyon as it lends credibility to what will be revealed, but if one really knows where the girls are and are concerned with only bringing them home, why not send an anonymous letter stating where they are. Send it to the family, a friend of the family (there are people posting here who proport to know the family in a loose sort of connection), MCPD, FBI, the press, all of the above, whomever. If this many outlets are sent information and EVERYONE ignores it and later the girls are discovered there, they"ll have some serious explaining to do. Each and everyone of them.
Was the letter sent to both Mr. and Mrs. Lyon? It seems it was only sent to Mrs. and I am wondering what the benefit would be to only sending it to one parent, specifically the mother in this case.

It is really hard to ignore a one sentence statement that gives the location of 2 girls missing for 35 years.

I am a little confused as to how one can know where they were taken. After reading the posts it seems everyone lost sight of the car after a while and the car was still on the move.
However one cames to know where they are isn't really important, I think the most important thing would be to let someone know. While it's important for one to remember and recount the events of the day, it must be a tremendous memory to live with, it may be more important to others to just receive a location, an address etc without all the details.

I am also curious about the letter that was found a year after the fact. In an earlier post it was stated investigators had no physical evidence yet the post also states the FBI is in possession of a plea made by Sheila. IMO the letter would be evidence, wouldn't it?

This post is getting really long and I apologize.
A turf war was mentioned in an earlier post, and confused or battling jurisdictions. Is it possible that authorities know where the girls are and will not go after them because to do so would ultimately reveal a botched case 35 years ago?
I'd hate to believe that, and don't believe this unless some evidence is put forth to support this but I wonder if anyone here believes this could be the case. Anything is possible. I've seen a lot of terrible things I never thought I'd see but I still choose to believe in the goodness of humanity unless given evidence to the contrary.

And lastly, it was posted that one is looking for an angel to help bring the girls home. I think the work done here on WS is done by angels with everyone doing everything they can to help bring loved ones home to those who miss them the most. WS is a great resource, please take advantage of the possibilities right here to find your angel.

Fukiyama
08-13-2010, 07:34 PM
For everyone wondering, I think mdietz's comments are being misinterpreted. Yes, at one point, he stated he knew where the girls are, but in subsequent points explaining what he knows, he has indicated that he saw them in the vehicle and chased after and then later found out about a note left along a river that was found by MCP.

Unless I am reading wrong at this point, mdietz does /not/ know where the girls are right now in 2010.

mdietz47
08-14-2010, 03:45 AM
"Unless I am reading wrong at this point, mdietz does /not/ know where the girls are right now in 2010."

Thank you, Fukiyama, you are 'sorta' absolutely correct.

I do not have absolute proof of where the girls were taken on April 7th 1975.

I do not have absolute proof that the girls are alive today.

NO one has any absolute proof of 'who' took the girls 'where' on April 7th 1975.

But there are eyewitnesses - I’m one - and evidence to investigate that the girls were in Manassas on that morning but the MCP and FBI dismissed it.

Their response to this sighting is consistent with their response to the DC Sniper. In both cases of an extremely high-profile heinous crime, their profile of the perpetrator and circumstances of the crime were ‘wrong’. And in both of those cases those errors lead them to looking in the wrong places for the wrong suspect.

Fortunately in the sniper case the perpetrators had committed a similar crime in another state and that police agency clued them into who the likely suspects were. And an alert truck driver sighted the suspects and notified the authorities.

Nothing like today’s cooperation and communication between independent law enforcement agencies existed in 1975. There weren’t ‘computer’ databases, public notification procedures. Nothing existed of those things we just take for granted today. But we had 8-track tapes for our rock-n-roll…

I’m just saying. The evidence in the Lyon’s case still exists. It’s in people’s collective memories of that day, in the path of the crime as it moved from Kensington to Manassas to the Blue Ridge. It can be found, followed and a resolution – not a conviction – to their disappearance can be proven. But NO one is going to do anything to make it happen. And that is a result of the single primary reason we have 10s of thousands of LOST, not missing, kids; we do not have an independent investigative -not law enforcement - agency working to gather the evidence, evaluate and follow it.

The MCP cannot effectively investigate a crime that started in Montgomery Co, MD then moved to Manassas VA then to wherever. They are not established, chartered or funded to look for LOST kids. Their primary legal purpose is to investigate, identify and gather the evidence to convict a criminal of a crime. They recover what evidence is at the crime scene or find in locations associated with the criminal but they don’t have the means or authority to search for the LOST.

Let me identify a problem for you – the car. I’ve identified the car I saw as a 1970 Ford Torino Country Squire with a white exterior and blue interior. If someone will tell me how to post a picture, I’ll show you what it looked like.

There were only ~14, 600 of this model produced in 1970 and of course only some them had a blue interior. The exact number and registration of those with blue interior can be recovered. It’s not easy but a law enforcement agency is not going to undertake the effort because it’s a wasted effort for them to do just one time for one case.
The Virginia’s DMV has in this vehicle in its registration records for 1970, 71, 72, 73, 74 and 75 but we’re not going to get access because only a law enforcement agency can have access. So we could identify the vehicle and the owner by accessing those records but only law enforcement agencies can request it and they’re not going to because it won’t yield a conviction.

All this verbiage doesn’t negate the fact that I saw what I saw and I remember exactly what I saw.

SharetheLight
08-14-2010, 03:11 PM
"Unless I am reading wrong at this point, mdietz does /not/ know where the girls are right now in 2010."

Thank you, Fukiyama, you are 'sorta' absolutely correct.

I do not have absolute proof of where the girls were taken on April 7th 1975.

I do not have absolute proof that the girls are alive today.

NO one has any absolute proof of 'who' took the girls 'where' on April 7th 1975.

But there are eyewitnesses - I’m one - and evidence to investigate that the girls were in Manassas on that morning but the MCP and FBI dismissed it.

Their response to this sighting is consistent with their response to the DC Sniper. In both cases of an extremely high-profile heinous crime, their profile of the perpetrator and circumstances of the crime were ‘wrong’. And in both of those cases those errors lead them to looking in the wrong places for the wrong suspect.

Fortunately in the sniper case the perpetrators had committed a similar crime in another state and that police agency clued them into who the likely suspects were. And an alert truck driver sighted the suspects and notified the authorities.

Nothing like today’s cooperation and communication between independent law enforcement agencies existed in 1975. There weren’t ‘computer’ databases, public notification procedures. Nothing existed of those things we just take for granted today. But we had 8-track tapes for our rock-n-roll…

I’m just saying. The evidence in the Lyon’s case still exists. It’s in people’s collective memories of that day, in the path of the crime as it moved from Kensington to Manassas to the Blue Ridge. It can be found, followed and a resolution – not a conviction – to their disappearance can be proven. But NO one is going to do anything to make it happen. And that is a result of the single primary reason we have 10s of thousands of LOST, not missing, kids; we do not have an independent investigative -not law enforcement - agency working to gather the evidence, evaluate and follow it.

The MCP cannot effectively investigate a crime that started in Montgomery Co, MD then moved to Manassas VA then to wherever. They are not established, chartered or funded to look for LOST kids. Their primary legal purpose is to investigate, identify and gather the evidence to convict a criminal of a crime. They recover what evidence is at the crime scene or find in locations associated with the criminal but they don’t have the means or authority to search for the LOST.

Let me identify a problem for you – the car. I’ve identified the car I saw as a 1970 Ford Torino Country Squire with a white exterior and blue interior. If someone will tell me how to post a picture, I’ll show you what it looked like.

There were only ~14, 600 of this model produced in 1970 and of course only some them had a blue interior. The exact number and registration of those with blue interior can be recovered. It’s not easy but a law enforcement agency is not going to undertake the effort because it’s a wasted effort for them to do just one time for one case.
The Virginia’s DMV has in this vehicle in its registration records for 1970, 71, 72, 73, 74 and 75 but we’re not going to get access because only a law enforcement agency can have access. So we could identify the vehicle and the owner by accessing those records but only law enforcement agencies can request it and they’re not going to because it won’t yield a conviction.

All this verbiage doesn’t negate the fact that I saw what I saw and I remember exactly what I saw.

thank you for clarifying mdietz. i do not doubt what you saw.
IF we found out who the car was registered to in 1975, and where that person lived in 1975, do you think that info would lead us to the girls? I think it would give insight into whose car was transporting at least one of them on that day in 1975, but would it help us find them?
Focusing on finding them as opposed to getting a conviction, which is the job for LE and the DA.

Can you remember anything about the driver? You've given incredible detail as to other aspects, but can you remember anything at all about the driver, and or if there was another person in the front seat.

Tripmap
08-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Marshall, it sounds like you've done about all that you can. You know that several people did recieve your letter, they must've forwarded them onto law enforcement. I also saw where you posted your info. on the Dateline sight on Facebook. Must be very frustrating for you then and now. To look into the girls face and see her and not be able to help... I hope something comes of this and hope for you to find some peace with the situation.

mere
08-15-2010, 10:38 PM
mdietz47
Note: The girls were taken on March 25th, sighted in Manassass on April 7th and a note was recovered from the Rappahannock River near Fredericksburg the following spring.

I know that many posters are curious about this. More information about the note would be appreciated.

mdietz47
08-16-2010, 01:35 AM
As I see it we're down to about 3 unanswered questions that I will try to answer over a couple more postings.

5. Give a physical description of the driver and how he was dressed?

8. How Sheila was dressed?

12. Provide background info about the note found near Fredericksburg.


First, let me give you my description of how the Sheila and the driver were dressed that day.
I want to be absolutely honest with you. Anyone with a dram of common sense is going to say ‘you can’t remember all this stuff, you must be dreaming up some of this up.’ And they may be right to some degree.

I believe I remember it so well because I was aware that at that moment everything I saw and did was important to remember it. Also, I conscientiously didn’t disregard any detail that didn’t make sense at the time. Much of those details have now made sense and are important clues to what was happening. Last and I believe this is important, as any other is tht after I reported the incident I chose not to think about what I saw. I’ve now been reminded that I didn’t even tell my wife or disclose it to anyone until after the cold-case officer called me.

And after I read in the Post that the investigators had dismissed the other witness’ sighting without calling me, I chose to retain and lock away that experience and proceeded not to recall it for 30 some years. I knew even then that to think about it was to permit that recall to alter and change my original remembrance. I didn’t write anything down, make notes, or retrace that day’s events at its holiday I just forgot about until asked to recall it.

Whether that made a difference, I don’t know; I only know what I remember now.

When I pulled along side the car – it was already stopped at the red light – I first noticed a girls bare legs lying across the length of the rear seat. She was wearing a wool knit plaid skirt mostly of gray dark green and blue with some red in the in the plaid. It didn’t occur to me at the time – one of those little confusing details at the time – that I now recognize as part of a standard parochial schools girls uniform. I do recall white anklets and strap shoes but I do know she was not bare foot but wearing shoes.

At time it seemed strange that a child would be lying the back seat of a car instead of sitting up. And since it was 8:30AM she should already be at school. The car was not headed in the direction of a school or the hospital should she be ill. The circumstance just didn’t fit the place and time of day.

I looked toward the driver and could see him looking into his windshield rear-view mirror. He appeared to be tall at least 6 ft or so; moderately built – not muscular, heavy or thin. He appeared to be in his early-mid 30’s showing some flecks of gray in his hair. His hair was dark – almost black contrasting with the specks of gray hair; its was medium length for the time; wavy, styled with normal - not short – sideburns and block cut at the back – not tapered. I saw he’s hair was combed along the sides into a sort of ducktail (for those who remember what that was) but not that extreme.

Thirty-five years ago when I was 28, my hair was long, down to my French collar, and I had a bushy mustache that I had to trim back every month for weekend National Guard drill in Manassas. Then you had ‘long’ hair or a barber’s cut where you could see through to the skin on the sides and back.
The driver was wearing a brown and green tweed flat cap - scaly cap, salmon hat, and Dai cap or Jeff cap. The cold case officer asked, as I tried to describe it as an English racecar driver’s hat, was it a slouch hat and I said yes. My Dad occasionally wore a flat cap all is his life; I never asked him what it was called or why he wore one. I recalled that David Niven – another one of those dead actors youngsters under 50 don’t know about – wore them in a couple of his movies.

He had on a plaid woolen shirt - made famous by Pendleton and French-Canadian beaver trappers – in dark colors. I don’t recall exactly what the plaid was except it was predominately blues and greens. From the rear ¾ view I could see that he was clean-shaven, no apparent moustache, he had a swarthy complexion and a distinctive nose profile. I told the cold-case detective that my first thought was that he had the facial features of Lee Van Cleef but, of course, the cold-case detective had no idea of who Lee Van Cleef was any more than he did Davis Niven. Checking it out on Wikipedia, Lee Van Cleef was of Dutch ancestry.

I looked back to the rear passenger door as movement caught my attention and light blond hair began to appear then eyebrows, bright blue eyes with gold metal circular rim glasses that I now could recognize as a girl’s face then her nose. At that moment I knew I was staring straight into Sheila Lyon’s eyes. She seemed desperate, pleading, scared, not crying, angry or defeated without hope. Then I looking at the rear area side window as the car took off.

I looked forward as he pulled into the intersection against the red light – a real no-no in Manassas 1975 - and as he made a square right turn off Church St, Rt 28, onto Grant Ave, Rt 234, all I saw was the side profile of the car – a Ford Fairlane, white with country squire vinyl wood trim surrounded by tan metal trim. My immediate impression was that he handled the car just too well to be any driver. Even though he made an extremely sharp right-turn under power, I heard nothing to indicate squealing or spinning tires. My other impression was he handled the steering wheel like a truck driver - up close and in your chest with plenty of rotational arm movement. At the time I was driving my wife’s brown ’74 Ford (German) Capri with 4-speed and a 2.8-liter V-6 - a pocket rocket Mustang. My favored driving position was straight-arms and legs for better control on Northern Virginia’s twisty, winding back-county blacktop roads.

I was stunned, what did I just experience, did the driver bolt because of the girl in the window. I was confused, what do I do? Then I put it in 1st gear and took after him. As Paul Harvey said, ‘Now you know the rest of the story.”

And thank you for your attentiveness. You may or may not believe a word of this but you are listening and evaluating. Mulling over in your mind if what I've said is possibly true or a possible thread to a new direction of consideration. I appreciate this opportunity to clearly express what I recall. I only ask for your patience and that you keep open the possibility that this may lead to finding the girls, whatever their fate. I will accept, with some regret, whatever we find as a final resolution. I am now at peace with sharing what I know; I can only hope and pray that my personal ‘confession’ will bring them peace also.

marshall

Maznblu1
08-17-2010, 02:13 PM
? If you have an idea where the girls are,

Not ‘if’? I do.

But to gain the cooperation of those that know or those that have the evidence necessary to locate them is to invite a turf ‘control’ war. I said, I don’t trust those agencies that screwed this up. The girls will be found sooner or later or by those that follow. I have personally been to the VA county where they were taken a half-dozen times and have contacted those that have the means to find out ‘what’ happened, The ‘problem’ is that ‘we’ cannot find out what is ‘already’ known or suspected. As sure as the gates of heaven will open on that day, ‘those-in-the-know’ are not going to publicly share the Lyons file. The close as I expect to get them is the image of the three evidence boxes in the Montgomery County Police cold-case trailer shown by NBC Washington.


I understand what you witnessed and that you don't have absolute proof of what happened to the girls. But you seem pretty sure of where the girls were taken. How is that and could you expand on it for us? And if it's solid information you should contact the current investigator and every TV program that runs true crime shows. Maybe that would shake something loose.

Fukiyama
08-17-2010, 02:36 PM
I understand what you witnessed and that you don't have absolute proof of what happened to the girls. But you seem pretty sure of where the girls were taken. How is that and could you expand on it for us? And if it's solid information you should contact the current investigator and every TV program that runs true crime shows. Maybe that would shake something loose.
Again, I'll start off by asking for correction if I'm wrong, but I'm reading this as mdietz has over time learned something of what LE already knows. The note found along the river seems to already be known to LE and unless I'm wrong, that's as far as mdietz's knowledge of the girls goes.

Mdietz's general thrust with his posts seems to be basically MCP screwed up back in the 70s and since MCP contacted him thirty years later about his initial report, the ball is in MCP's court.

I agree about contacting media, especially in the DC area.

Jeb
08-17-2010, 04:24 PM
I don't know if you realize this, but the man you described, not only matches the TRM I saw at Wheaton Plaza, but it is also describes Fred Coffey. I know you said that it wasn't the guy in NC, in prison, but are you positive? Coffey has been known to have graying hair, & he does have a distinctive nose if you view him at an angle. I've seen about 3 or 4 pictures of Coffey, other than when he's dressed for court, & guess what..he's wearing plaid shirts. Coffey would have been not in his mid 30's in 1975 but about 30 yrs. old. When watching an old movie with Lee Van Cleef in it, I have said outloud to the people in the room with me, he looks like Fred Coffey, one of the suspects in the Lyon Case.

About the TRM I saw. I described him as about 6ft. tall (he had footwear with tall heels), when I saw him. Coffey is about 5 ft 9 inches. the foot wear could make up the differance. Just like you said, medium build. Last but not least he had a ductail haircut, I know what it looks like. I would venture to say that people with this hairstyle are products of the 50s. Coffey would have been a teenager in the 50s.

Marshall, I'm not saying you're wrong, but COULD the guy you saw be Fred Coffey. Look at the picture of him that was in the papers in 1987, it was taken in 1975 when he worked at Vitro. Thanks for you time!

mdietz47
08-18-2010, 03:02 AM
Wow, you leave me thinking, ‘what if?’

I can’t say that the driver I saw looked like anybody, because I haven’t seen pictures of TapeRecorderMan or Coffey (other than a mugshot of him taken within the last 10 or so years). I have no factual justification to disregard either; however, I, of course, can form an opinion of why it’s not one of them.

I’m going to leave TRM off the table because he’s an enigma - someone who might be but is unknown. That’s what I have today - a sighting, a description and an unknown individual except mine was in possession of the victims. What is needed is supporting evidence from various sources that will identify him as a potential suspect thus leading us on to a more substantial body of corroborating and circumstantial evidence leading to recovery of the girls.

After I was told my sighting was ‘real’ and reading some of postings from early in 2004-5, I did look at Coffey as a possibly. However, it’s not enough to finger him because he’s a child rapist and killer with known presence in DC around the time of the Lyon’s disappearance. He would also have to match the unique characteristics of the actual perpetrator in this particular crime.

I don’t know whether to start with his criminal history or to analyze the unique aspects of the Lyon’s taking that show his criminal dossier doesn’t fit? All that I know of Coffey’s known crimes leading to the appeal of his death row conviction, comes from the record of the Supreme Court of North Carolina, June 17th 1994, decision on Fred Howard Coffey vs. State of North Carolina.

From the record, Coffey was indicted on Feb 16, 1987, in Mecklenburg Co. (Charlotte) on first-degree murder charges for the kidnapping, rape and strangulation of 10 year-old Amanda Ray. Recalling, apparently Fred was the boyfriend of Amanda’s mother at the time she disappeared on July 18th. On July 19th her body was found near a lake in Mecklenburg Co., she’d suffered bruises, a black eye and died from asphyxiation.

Although Amanda was murdered on July 18th, 1979, Coffey wasn’t charged until February 16th, 1987. The proximal basis for the charge was identification of dog hairs on Coffey’s couch and in his van that matched dog hairs found on Amanda’s clothing at the time of her death. At his trial the State also produced evidence that prior to this murder, Coffey had masturbated in the presence of a 3 year-old daughter of an acquaintance. The State also produced evidence of 1974 convictions in Virginia Beach, VA, on 2 counts of indecent exposure and 2 counts of indecent liberties involving 3 children (ages not stated). Also, 1986 convictions for 9 counts of indecent liberties with 3 children in Caswell Co, NC

So he is now serving a life sentence in Central Prison, Raleigh, NC and I’ve been refused permission to contact him.

I find two things disturbing about considering Fred Coffey as a viable suspect in the Lyon sisters’ disappearance. Of his known crimes, he has manifested himself as a pedophile who exposes himself to children (as young as 3 years-old), attempts penetration (indecent liberties) and fails resulting in anger (a black-eye on the victim) and death of his victim (by strangulation).

I cannot cognitively match Coffey’s criminal scenario with that of the kidnapper of the Lyon’s sisters. They were unknown to or by Coffey, taken from a public street adjacent to a busy neighborhood mall, transported within 10 days to Manassas, VA - 26 miles away, observed on an early Monday morning in the presence of their kidnapper, then transported another 44 miles to their final known destination. On looking at the route the kidnapper followed, I must confess he may have been in Maryland until that Monday morning. In any case, the Sheila I saw bore no visible evidence of physical assault and should her sister Kate also have been in the rear area; how did he keep control of 2 pre-adolescents for 10 days? I just don’t see it working that way.

I wish I knew more of the circumstances leading up to their taking or had more to evidence to speculate on the motivations of the kidnapper; but until VA’s DMV gives us an answer on the vehicle, we’ll be waiting another 35 years.

mdietz47
08-18-2010, 03:24 AM
If you should happen to live outside of the Great North State, Coffey’s conviction in 1987 was predicated on matching dog hairs from the victim’s clothing to dog hairs from Coffey’s couch and van.

Now North Carolina’s citizens have been delivered the distressing news that our State Bureau of Investigation (CSI) is staffed with Jed Clampet’s cousins or is it his siblings or whatever! The Raleigh News and Observer “http://www.newsobserver.com/” has disclosed the NC SBI to be totally incompetent, a harbinger of junk science, a disgraceful stooge of the NC Attorney General, couldn’t find their asses in a hurricane if they used a propane torch!

There is a damn good possibility that Fed Coffey was framed with concocted evidence about the matching dog hairs given the totally bogus dehavior of our State Crime Lab over the past 25 years.
I’m not saying he’s potentially ‘Not Guilty”; I’m saying the SBI evidence presented that was the basis for his conviction was adsolutely bogus.

Richard
08-18-2010, 09:09 AM
Wow, you leave me thinking, ‘what if?’...

From the record, Coffey was indicted on Feb 16, 1987, in Mecklenburg Co. (Charlotte) on first-degree murder charges for the kidnapping, rape and strangulation of 10 year-old Amanda Ray. Recalling, apparently Fred was the boyfriend of Amanda’s mother at the time she disappeared on July 18th. On July 19th her body was found near a lake in Mecklenburg Co., she’d suffered bruises, a black eye and died from asphyxiation.

Although Amanda was murdered on July 18th, 1979, Coffey wasn’t charged until February 16th, 1987. The proximal basis for the charge was identification of dog hairs on Coffey’s couch and in his van that matched dog hairs found on Amanda’s clothing at the time of her death. At his trial the State also produced evidence that prior to this murder, Coffey had masturbated in the presence of a 3 year-old daughter of an acquaintance. The State also produced evidence of 1974 convictions in Virginia Beach, VA, on 2 counts of indecent exposure and 2 counts of indecent liberties involving 3 children (ages not stated). Also, 1986 convictions for 9 counts of indecent liberties with 3 children in Caswell Co, NC

So he is now serving a life sentence in Central Prison, Raleigh, NC and I’ve been refused permission to contact him. ....

Just some clarification. Fred Coffey was at Central Prison while on death row. In 1995, his death sentence was overturned in a re-trial when all of the previous convictions and details were with held from the jury. For the past several years, Coffey has been residing at Pender Prison in Burgaw, NC.

I have not seen in court records that the Virginia Beach incidents were introduced into evidence in North Carolina. The other information you mention - of incidents which took place in NC were introduced. Coffey was convicted in late 1986 of three incidents involving three children and for that he was awarded five separate jail terms to be served consecutively (but concurrently with the later death sentence).

Coffey began serving those 1986 sentences in January 1987, and completed them in 2007. His current sentence/incarceration is for the first degree murder of Amanda Ray. He has been up for parole every year since 1995 and has always been denied parole. In July of 2009, when parole was again denied, it was decreed that he would not be up for parole again until 3 years had passed.

Coffey admitted to a court appointed psychiatrist that he had molested over 100 children. That information was admitted during his murder trial.

Regarding the Virginia Beach incidents:

In 1974 Coffey was charged with the abduction and rape of a 13-year-old Navy dependant. The case was handled by civilian authorities, plead down and he served no time. The Navy, however, discharged him on 17 Sept 1974. Some thime after that, he moved to Maryland.

By October 1975, Coffey was back in Virginia Beach where he was arrested and charged with "Contributing to the delinquency of a minor" with a 15 year old girl.

SharetheLight
08-18-2010, 10:16 AM
Again, I'll start off by asking for correction if I'm wrong, but I'm reading this as mdietz has over time learned something of what LE already knows. The note found along the river seems to already be known to LE and unless I'm wrong, that's as far as mdietz's knowledge of the girls goes.

Mdietz's general thrust with his posts seems to be basically MCP screwed up back in the 70s and since MCP contacted him thirty years later about his initial report, the ball is in MCP's court.

I agree about contacting media, especially in the DC area.

I am also reading mdietz as saying the letter is known by LE because mdietz said the FBI had the letter or something to that effect. I am wondering what the letter contained. mdietz mentioned it was a plea from Sheila so I assume mdietz knows the content of the letter. There were two girls taken that day and to assume one of them and not the other wrote the plea would be a huge assumption. So mdietz must have some knowledge other than a note was found.

That information has never been posted here before. Richard has provided an enormous amount of information for us all to mull over, and locals have come on to give their rememberences of the day, the girls etc. which have added to the things to consider.
I did not get the impression that mdietz talked to the mcpd more than just reporting his sighting on the day it happened, and then again 30 years later when they called him to follow up.

So I guess we'd all like some background information on the note, allegedly authored by Sheila, that was found a year later to decide whether or not it is further information to consider.

Jeb
08-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Coffey is serving his sentence at Pender Corr. Inst. in NC. It's in burgaw NC,off Rt. 40.

Whoever snatched the girls, controlled the girls for 10 or 12 days, until 7Apr. when the girl/girls were sighted in the station wagon. I don't know how or where this could have possibly been done,or whether the abductor was Coffey or someone else.

About the stationwagon and driver...consider this; the TRM I saw had a ducktail haircut, I'm 1oo% positive on that. LE told me about 5 yrs. ago that Coffey had 3 cars back in '75. My response was, well, was one of them a stationwagon like the one sighted in Va 7Apr75.? He then told me that Coffey had access to one. Sooo, in 1975 how many people wore a ducktail haircut which went out with the 50s, & how many people drove a stationwagon of this nature? Or better yet,in 1975, how many people had a ductail haircut & drove this exact type car?

mdietz47
08-19-2010, 01:34 AM
12. Provide background info about the note found near Fredericksburg.

Jeb and Richard,

It’s a possibility that the impossible might be possible and the perp might be Coffey. The effort and risk must have been off-scale for him; especially, when he bolted he light. If he had his eye on the rearview, he must have seen me slide through the intersection behind him as I tried to stop for the turn and missed.

While this possibility opens a whole new can of ‘what if’s and maybes’ I want to get back to my description of the car because it is the only tangible piece of evidence that can be recovered even if the car’s destroyed now.

I have pictures of the model and year from an ad in Hemming. The seller sent me pictures of rear passenger areas of the 2nd seat and the 3rd seat open, and a front ¾ of the front of the car. This car differs only in two ways. The exterior is a pale light green and the perp's was white (though maybe repainted) and the interior vinyl is saddle brown where as I saw medium dark blue.

I could contact the Henry Ford museum staff to verify what exterior colors were produced with a blue interior. I know the published exterior/interior color choices list white exterior with blue, but I’m not convinced that they actually produced any unless it was a special order.

I want to contact the Prince William County Attorney’s office to see if they would be willing to disclose anything about their investigation or entertain asking the DMV to open their records.
That is IF it’s a Virginia car, but Jeb says Coffey had access to one – in Maryland or Virginia?

The County Sheriff says a couple of MCP detectives came to her County after ’87, I guess, and asked to be shown a couple of sights of interest. She didn’t say if it was the location or the residents they wanted to checkout but they didn’t find anything.

Though Richard may not recall, I may still have a printout of a posting from at least 5-10 years ago by a MD woman who stated that a short time before the Lyon girls were taken, a man tried to accost and coax her young daughter into his car. They were in a strip or open mall near Kensington in a jewelry shop? when her daughter asked to go outside. As the mother was shopping, she kept an eye on her daughter, when a man approached the girl and started a conversation. Sensing something wasn’t right about the scene outside, the mother’s left the shop to inquire about what was going on.

The man’s reaction was immediate intense anger, profanity and he took off in his car directly out into moving traffic on the main cross street without hesitation and was gone.

Her description left me chilled because that is exactly the sensation I experienced in Manassas.

I’ll go onto the note, I’ve mentioned it previously because of the unique circumstance of it recovery and the FBI’s role again in evaluating the evidence and then no follow through.

This incident is not something I have direct knowledge of but was shared by a LE investigator. Apparently in late-March/early-April of the year after the Lyons’ disappearance, two men fishing under the I-95 bridge over the Rappahannock at Fredericksburg found a bottle. I don’t know if it was in the water, at the bank or on the bank. Something caused them to pick it up and inside they could see a paper note. I don’t know if they immediately took it to the police or opened the bottle and read the note first. Certainly, examining the contents would have diminished the usefulness of any forensic analysis. The Fredericksburg police called in the FBI; the FBI examined the note and verified that the handwriting was most probably Sheila’s and that the bottle had been in the river for about a year.

The note said was something like: Help me. I’m being held in @@@ Virginia. Sheila. I don’t know if the entire note was more descriptive of where in or near the town named she was or if she signed her last name, as well. This Urban Legend, so to speak, wouldn’t really be believable; except, that the annual shad run on the lower Rappahannock occurs at that time of year. Several hundred or more fishermen may have been on the banks, in boats or wading along the shore under the bridge. IF a bottle were to be found, then certainly that event would yield the highest probability of its discovery. Also, meteorologically April consistently has the greatest monthly precipitation recorded during the year because of the spring rains on the upper Rappahannock tributaries.

I’d like to consider that this as a valid lead. The shad run still occurs there so someone today may recall the bottle incident. It’s just a matter of asking a couple hundred fishermen where ever you find them. I did ask at a bait and tackle shop that has been in operation long enough to know but they said they didn’t. I stopped for lunch at a fish house along the river in the older part of Fredericksburg but I don’t think anyone serving there was even born then. Since that attempt four years ago, I haven’t been able to return at the right time to really talk with anyone

Finally, the entire Rappahannock river system from the Blue Ridge to the Bay has been extensively mapped, monitored and probed in the past 15 years since GPS devices and GIS software on PC’s arrived. I have several reports from VaTech and Mary Washington on the ecology of the river so if there is anything in it connected with this case someone has stepped in it, around it or over it. They may not have recognized the significance of say dozens or more broken bottles lying in and about the banks. They may not have recognized it then but they might recall it if asked.

Something more for us to think about and please don’t take me for a fool because I believe in miracles, But if you’d looked into Sheila’s eyes that morning, you too would know in your heart-of-hearts that she was never going to give up, never yield without a struggle, never stop trying, no matter how pointless, to be FOUND.

Jeb
08-19-2010, 09:51 AM
I'm just trying to connect the dots. Here's the point; TRM had a ducktail haircut, the "wagon" driver had a ducktail haircut, & Fred Coffey had access to a "wagon".

In the video of Coffey being arrested in '87, his hair was combed back on the sides, but I can't see if it forms a ducktail in the back.

Coffey was married 3 times, & I assume this happened around Bristol,Va. He was raised in Bristol & his mother Pauline Davidson was there also, along with his sisters. Maybe the "wagon" was a loaner from one of these people. I do believe Bristol to be a Blue Ridge County. I also believe Coffey was the TRM. Is it possible Coffey was returning to Bristol the day of the sightings,(Manassas would be enroute). Whatever he did with the girl/girls would have happened between Manassas & Bristol.

Richard
08-19-2010, 10:09 AM
12. ......

While this possibility opens a whole new can of ‘what if’s and maybes’ I want to get back to my description of the car because it is the only tangible piece of evidence that can be recovered even if the car’s destroyed now.

I have pictures of the model and year from an ad in Hemming. The seller sent me pictures of rear passenger areas of the 2nd seat and the 3rd seat open, and a front ¾ of the front of the car. This car differs only in two ways. The exterior is a pale light green and the perp's was white (though maybe repainted) and the interior vinyl is saddle brown where as I saw medium dark blue.

I could contact the Henry Ford museum staff to verify what exterior colors were produced with a blue interior. I know the published exterior/interior color choices list white exterior with blue, but I’m not convinced that they actually produced any unless it was a special order. ...
.

Marshall,

What you say about car interior colors makes sense. The car companies usually had different "levels" of quality and color which could be specified when ordering a new car.

I recall ordering a brand new 1973 Cranberry Red Buick in fall of 1972. I had a choice of cloth or vinal seats and a choice of tan or black interior color. GM also provided an option (for more money, of course) to provide cranberry red interior.

This was basically true of all other GM cars and I am sure that Ford and Chrysler had similar policies. My Dad, who was a Buick engineer, explained to me that the company had a vested interest in how their cars looked and would not allow certain color combinations to leave the plant or the showrooms. So a red interior and a green exterior simply would not happen with a factory new car.

In the case of a Blue interior, Ford would only have allowed that color with certain specific exterior colors - most likely blue, but possibly white as well. I do recall a 1960 Ford Station wagon which was White outside with Blue interior.

While the Henry Ford Museum might be a good source of information, the information on interior and exterior colors may also be documented in a number of car collector books.

Station Wagons are rarely seen today. They have long since been replaced by Minivans, and SUV's. But back in the 60's and 70's they were very popular. Between 1968 and 1972 (the years mentioned as possible model years for the Manassas Ford Station Wagon) the Ford Motor company actually produced Station Wagons under several different model names. Here are a few:

1968 - Standard Falcon, Falcon Futura, Fairlane, Fairlane 500, Torino, Ranch Wagon, Country Sedan, Country Squire.

1969 - Falcon Wagon, Fairlane, Fairlane 500, Fairlane Torino wagon, Custom Ranch Wagon, Galaxie 500 Country Sedan, Ltd Country Squire.

1970 - Falcon, Futura, Fairlane 500, Torino, Torino Brougham, Custom, Custom 500, Galaxie 500, LTD.

1971 - Torino, Torino 500, Custom, Custom 500, Galaxie 500, LTD Country Squire.

1972 - Pinto (2 dr wagon), Torino, Custom, Custom 500, Galaxie 500, LTD.

So you see, the names and models and styles tended to change each year, but most of these station wagons were similar in appearance.

Note that these are only the Ford model station wagons. Mercury is also produced by the Ford Motor Company and for each Ford model there is often a Mercury model which is similar.

Also, you mention that the Manassass Station Wagon had the fake wood vinal applique on the sides. This might help to narrow down which possible models it might have been.

I have often wondered if such fake paneling might have been the reason that the other man said it was a Beige or Tan car. I once owned a Mercury Colony Park Station Wagon which was white with the fake wood paneling, and sometimes people would refer to it as my "brown" station wagon.

mdietz47
08-20-2010, 01:13 AM
I hope this decision on station wagons and why I say it was ‘70 Torino model can wait another day?

I’ve come down with summer cold and can’t stay up so late tonight to get it all out.

What I alluded to earlier about the NC Justice system is incompetent and non-functional is on the front page of the Raleigh News & Observer under http://www.newsobserver.com

The Crime Lab has been like a mental institution run by administrators and doctors loonier than the patients. The Attorney General has been informed that over 200 capital crime convictions will need to be voided due to improper, falsified and fake scientific testing methods, going back to 1987. The Labs bogus evidence analysis may have improperly lead to the death penalty for three prisoners who were executed for a crime they may not have been guilty of. Several gave confessions but they may not have deserved the death penalty.

Modified: 08/19/10 07:06:57 PM

State police group urges criminal probe of SBI
The North Carolina Police Benevolence Association called Thursday for a criminal investigation of SBI analysts, and their supervisors, who withheld critical blood evidence for 16 years.

SBI agent Duane Deaver's testimony from Greg Taylor's exoneration hearing

SBI manuals directing analysts how to word reports on bodily fluids

Serious issues

Testimony on blood tests changed

The men behind the audit

It’s important because Coffey’s death penalty conviction may have been the result of improper analysis and possibly forged results by the Lab scientist and technicians. I’m of the opinion that just about any lawyer worth his straw could now get him released. He’s been charged, tried, convicted and served the mandatory time for his crime. He’s been eligible for parole for 3 years and now the NC State Supreme Court will have NO option but void his conviction and release him for retrial. But all he has to do is offer an Alford plea, accept a guilty verdict from the judge and with credit for his time already served walk out a free man.

Somehow someone on the prosecution side was dumb enough to think that the SBI could take 3 dog hairs from 3 different locations after exposure for a number of years and match them. Nobody now believes the Lab personnel could even chew bubble gum and still walk. The hoaxsters, conmen and clowns in the place didn’t know a damn thing about forenic science so they read a book on the subject and made up the rest.

He’s gonna walk by next year – parole or no parole - he’s on his way out.

Richard
08-20-2010, 08:16 AM
...
It’s important because Coffey’s death penalty conviction may have been the result of improper analysis and possibly forged results by the Lab scientist and technicians. I’m of the opinion that just about any lawyer worth his straw could now get him released. He’s been charged, tried, convicted and served the mandatory time for his crime. He’s been eligible for parole for 3 years and now the NC State Supreme Court will have NO option but void his conviction and release him for retrial. But all he has to do is offer an Alford plea, accept a guilty verdict from the judge and with credit for his time already served walk out a free man....
He’s gonna walk by next year – parole or no parole - he’s on his way out.

You make some good points regarding a possible retrial or release of Mr. Coffey. He has actually been up for parole every year for the past 15 years now, and thankfully the Parole Board of NC has seen fit to keep him behind bars.

He had a very slick lawyer, indeed, who got him off the death penalty after two re-trials. So maybe one of those guys in the expensive suits and big gold rings will move in there and try to get this Innocent Lamb released.

In the past few years there have been two major efforts to prosecute Mr. Coffey for two other child murders. One in North Carolina for the murder of little Neely Smith (age 5), and the other in Virginia for the abduction and murder of Travis Shane King (age 8). In both cases, Coffey was the last person seen with the child. Perhaps it is time to jump-start those prosecution efforts.

Motherof5
08-20-2010, 03:36 PM
MDietz47..Thank you so much for sharing everything you can remember with us:) I have a question about the note...Did LE actually tell you about the note or are you saying it's simply urban legend? Again...I'm so glad you're here:)

SharetheLight
08-23-2010, 12:19 PM
mdietz47

you have provided us with some info that most of us didn't really consider and then some. We have all posted theories as to what may have happened, who did it, how it played out. I am curious since you had the opportunity to see Sheila (and her condition) days after she was taken, and view the car, and the driver, and have info about a note found a considerable distance away, info none of us really had. I am curious as to how you think it happened, when and where it happened, was it TRM, were they taken in the parking lot, or on the way home, taken by someone known to them or by a stranger etc.
A few of us have come up with scenerios that do not make this a random abduction, but find it difficult to support due to the randomness of the girls travels that day. I noticed in your letter to Mrs. Lyon you mention you do not think it was a random abduction. Can you expand on that?

Again thank you for all of your info. It opens up possibilities that weren't previously considered.

joellegirl
08-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Amazing info mdietz47. Looking forward to reading more of your posts. Interesting how Sheila was dressed like a Catholic school girl. Not at all like the clothes(or type of clothes) she was last seen in.

mdietz47
08-24-2010, 02:11 AM
In the past few years there have been two major efforts to prosecute Mr. Coffey for two other child murders. One in North Carolina for the murder of little Neely Smith (age 5), and the other in Virginia for the abduction and murder of Travis Shane King (age 8). In both cases, Coffey was the last person seen with the child. –-Richard

There’s no doubt that Coffey is a sickoo that needs iron bars between him and our children. But again, you bring up his predilection for single, young, pre-adolescent children – boys and girls. Of course, I know nothing about the circumstances of these two cases and would like to find out more because IF Coffey is responsible for the Lyons disappearance then he’s someone to focus on but if NOT then we need to move-on to some else.

I understand the reason for the MCP’s fixation on Coffey, as a primary suspect, is because of the circumstances surrounding his leaving MC without prior notice the day after another girl’s body was found in the area. And then only after 1987, when Mecklenburg County NC LE’s collared him for his last abduction.

I’ve always found his supposed behavior in Montgomery Co in 1975 as twisted, a distortion of his ‘normal’ signature attack. If Coffey took the Lyons, why did he hold both of them for 10 days? His pattern is commission and escape. And to return to the very area of his last crime and ingratiate himself into a job then kill another? Although, it was more like his signature behavior, the whole scenario sounds stupidly suicidal for a predictor whose longevity is dependent on escape without a trace to attack again. Just seems like reckless, out-of-character behavior without justification.

Then of course, the MCP’s number one suspect falls of their chart of who-done-its, what 3-4 years ago, when they find the evidence to blame some teens for that second girls death?

Coffey just doesn’t play right in this scene. No, our marauder is more specifically focused on his prey and their capture. He took them without resistance, held them for 10 days during a three-state manhunt, then just unpretentiously idled through downtown Manassas right past the County courthouse without a care - daring, flamboyant, flirting with destruction – signature anti-social narcissistic behavior.

Did LE actually tell you about the note or are you saying it's simply urban legend? –Motherof5

Yes, the LE told me this occurred after after my sighting. I called it an ‘urban legend’ because how am I to be certain it is totally factual. To answer my own question - because the unique circumstances that surround this seemingly impossible event support the possibility that it occurred. Did she toss a single bottle into a stream? Did she continue her attempts for days, weeks? Who knows?

A few of us have come up with scenarios that do not make this a random abduction, but find it difficult to support due to the randomness of the girls travels that day. I noticed in your letter to Mrs. Lyon you mention you do not think it was a random abduction. – ShareTheLight

No, I can’t see this as any thing but a planned abduction for a special purpose. I’m not saying that the Lyon’s sisters were singled out but the perpetrator had a singular purpose in risking taking them. He obviously had influence as a person of trust to so easily disarm their suspicions. He had cooperation or help to hold them for 10 days, either a secure safe house or supportive associates. I saw no overt evidence that Sheila had been harmed or physically abused. But what did he do with them for those 10 days? It’s like their importance wasn’t for the immediate but for a later greater, more important purpose?

Interesting how Sheila was dressed like a Catholic schoolgirl. Not at all like the clothes (or type of clothes) she was last seen in. – joellegirl

I know that is a jarring, disturbing point that I can’t address without risking crossing over the line of socially acceptable conjecture. Please, understand, I’m reaching here for some, even irrational, purpose served by all this. The Lyon’s are a very devote Catholic family; John was very involved in the Maryland Chapter of the International Knights of Columbus. Is it possible that through that affiliation, a twisted member knew of his daughters? Could that knowledge have lead to a totally inexplicable explanation for their disappearance?

Remember, we seem to so quickly forget that the world, as we knew it in 1975, was filled with demonic individuals that society was just not ready to acknowledge existed among us in high positions of leadership and authority.

Richard
08-24-2010, 10:26 AM
...

There’s no doubt that Coffey is a sickoo that needs iron bars between him and our children. But again, you bring up his predilection for single, young, pre-adolescent children – boys and girls. Of course, I know nothing about the circumstances of these two cases and would like to find out more because IF Coffey is responsible for the Lyons disappearance then he’s someone to focus on but if NOT then we need to move-on to some else.

I understand the reason for the MCP’s fixation on Coffey, as a primary suspect, is because of the circumstances surrounding his leaving MC without prior notice the day after another girl’s body was found in the area. And then only after 1987, when Mecklenburg County NC LE’s collared him for his last abduction.

I’ve always found his supposed behavior in Montgomery Co in 1975 as twisted, a distortion of his ‘normal’ signature attack. If Coffey took the Lyons, why did he hold both of them for 10 days? His pattern is commission and escape. And to return to the very area of his last crime and ingratiate himself into a job then kill another? Although, it was more like his signature behavior, the whole scenario sounds stupidly suicidal for a predictor whose longevity is dependent on escape without a trace to attack again. Just seems like reckless, out-of-character behavior without justification.

Then of course, the MCP’s number one suspect falls of their chart of who-done-its, what 3-4 years ago, when they find the evidence to blame some teens for that second girls death?....

Montgomery County Police have never officially named anyone - known or unknown - as a "suspect" in the case of the missing Lyon girls or in the murder of Kathy Lynn Beatty.

In these threads on Websleuths, there have been a number of possible suspects discussed - including, but not limited to Fred Howard Coffey, Jr.

As you have pointed out, MCP did not know of Mr. Coffey until March of 1987, some twelve years after the girls went missing. At that time, a police spokesman stated to the news media that he believed Coffey was the strongest lead they had in the case since day one. Within three days, MCP announced to the press that they could find no connection between Coffey and the Lyon sisters. Unfortunately, many records had been lost by that time and the trail was indeed cold.

While MCP might have considered Coffey as a possible perpetrator in the murder of Kathy Lynn Beatty, I do not think that they ever considered him their "number one suspect". In fact, the few indications to the press were that a person or persons from the local kid population were thought to be responsible for her death. MCP even suggested that her death may have been an "accident" and that she might have fallen and hit her head while running from someone.

MCP investigators in recent years have mentioned new witness testimony about two persons carrying a young girl across Georgia Avenue, but this would tend to support their earliest suspicions, rather than the work of Mr. Coffey. Unfortunately, urban legend seems to have provided much of the recent information on Kathy's case, and police have to carefully sift through hearsay and actual facts.

As the title of this thread would indicate, the premise of these posts is that the Lyon girls were indeed abducted. By whom is one major question. Other questions as to why, how, etc are as important. Was it a single perpetrator, or were more than one involved? A major obstacle to trying to answer those questions is the dearth of evidence and clues.

While there have been a number of potential suspects and persons of interest mentioned, it is hard to connect the dots on any of them. The very fact that there is so little evidence means that we are left with speculation in attempting to determine signatures and patterns, and then to project them onto these cases.

I would suggest that the abduction of the Lyon girls was NOT a first and only time event for the perpetrator. He was skilled, calculating, and confident. To attempt a double abduction, he had probably conducted previous single abductions. He most likely continued his abductions after this one.

At this point, I do not think that any of the suggested possible suspects could be named beyond a doubt as the perpetrator. Nor do I think that any of them could be completely ruled out based on known facts. Some might seem stronger or more likely than others, but that is not enough to arrest, indict, or convict.

One cannot, on the basis of information gained from only one or two specific cases, project that everything will match other known cases. Signatures do occur, similarities exist, patterns might be determined. But connections, projections, or rule-outs cannot be made on the absence of evidence.

Also, the "signature" might be that the perpetrator changes his method or pattern intentionally with each abduction. A pattern could be a simple repeating one of every six months, or it could be an excellerating one in which he attacks at successively earlier intervals, and with increasing violence or carelessness.

As you point out, it is also possible that either the Lyon abduction or the Beatty abduction/murder might be crimes which are outside of the usual signature/pattern of the perpetrator/perpetrators. Or that parts of those cases are outside the norm of the usual pattern.

It is possible that some event or obstacle occurred which caused the perpetrator(s) to alter their plans or patterns and to have to depart from their intended course of action.

SharetheLight
08-27-2010, 10:35 AM
<snipped>
No, I can’t see this as any thing but a planned abduction for a special purpose. I’m not saying that the Lyon’s sisters were singled out but the perpetrator had a singular purpose in risking taking them. He obviously had influence as a person of trust to so easily disarm their suspicions. He had cooperation or help to hold them for 10 days, either a secure safe house or supportive associates. I saw no overt evidence that Sheila had been harmed or physically abused. But what did he do with them for those 10 days? It’s like their importance wasn’t for the immediate but for a later greater, more important purpose?
<snipped>


So do you think the girls are still alive, or kept alive for a significant amount of time? I am assuming you think the purpose of their abduction was some type of slavery.

mdietz47
08-28-2010, 03:39 AM
So do you think the girls are still alive, or kept alive for a significant amount of time? I am assuming you think the purpose of their abduction was some type of slavery.

I'm at the point where I no longer question what the ultimate purpose of their abduction was. I’m less concerned with why or who took them than I am with why don’t the law enforcement agencies of this country want to solve this case? What is holding them back from addressing the multiple possibilities of perpetrators and purposes to bring this case to a conclusion rather than sealing what evidence, if any, they have in three cardboard boxes in the trailer in the parking lot of the Montgomery County Maryland Police department.

The FBI has never ceased looking for the radial terrorists of the 60’s and 70’s but we never hear of the Lyon’s case. It’s not even listed on most missing persons sites, it might have well happened in the 1800’s. What I’ve contributed in no more than they knew at the time of their abduction, I’m just reiterating its validity. So why didn’t the MCP check the Virginia DMV, as well as, their own. They knew both states had similar license plates. After all wasn’t the sighting in Manassas 10 days later a clue to look here rather than there.

Enough of the Post’s ‘reported’ sighting is disinformation – wrong time – incorrect location and circumstance – maybe incorrect vehicle description – that I can only believe that there was a push to keep this case out of Federal jurisdiction. Maybe the FBI would have looked more closely at a cross state borders crime and followed-up.

But nothing exonerates the MCP from not pursuing my thread of evidence in this case, even if it is a generation later, when the evidence is clear and the sources of confirmation are available to verity or dismiss it’s validity.

I called the Commonwealth Attorney’s Office for Prince William County, Virginia, this week and asked to speak with someone about the Lyon sister’’ disappearance sighting in Manassas 35 years ago. In a few minutes the lady who answered the phone returned with, “Thank you for contacting us, Mr. Dietz, about your information but we don’t keep records back that far.”

That response is what keeps me. Even if their parents have given up on them, I have not and will not until my last breath. Nothing has changed in 35 years, they were taken, they were sighted and they cried out for rescue. We only need to heed their cry for help and they will be found

I’m ready to ask an author of several books on notorious kidnappers of our time to take this on this investigation as a possible book. Nothing is going to change the ultimate result without reaching outside the normal LEA’s. If this does not work, then let us form a 501c3 to fund the investigation? Surely, we can raise $500,000 to solve this. There must be someone or some many who want to know the absolute truth and are willing to committee a reasonable sum to see that it happens. I will commit myself full time to break this thing open but I need support from those in positions of authority to make certain 'irregular' resources available.

If my life weren’t so entwined with Sheila’s disappearance, I’d walk away. But how can I. when I know that she asked me, as the last person she saw, to save her from what was to follow?

SharetheLight
09-02-2010, 12:02 AM
I don't really understand why after 35 years LE won't release whatever they have to try to find the girls and bring them home. Chances are whoever did it is no longer alive, or near death.
I hope someone picks up an interest in this case to get it back out to the media, or put pressure on certain agencies so the girls can be found.

mdietz47
09-12-2010, 09:08 PM
“SharetheLight: I don't really understand why after 35 years LE won't release whatever they have to try to find the girls and bring them home. Chances are whoever did it is no longer alive, or near death. I hope someone picks up an interest in this case to get it back out to the media, or put pressure on certain agencies so the girls can be found.”

I have tried. My latest was to send this email to the ABC, CBS, NBC network producers in Washington DC, on September 4th. Still no reply.


I invite you all to read at http://websleuths.com/forums/ showthread.php?t=81752&page=2 from #44 on. This is an on-going discussion of the Lyon sister’s disappearance from Kensington MD, on March 25th 1975.

Though this happened over 35 years ago, I'm sure, if you were around DC then, you remember it just as clearly as JFK's assassination - an unforgettable event in your life.

In my life was marked by that event because I am the only eyewitness to see Sheila in Manassas VA, on April 7th 1975 - 1 days after their disappearance. Mine is an interrupted story because after I reported my sighting to the Montgomery County Police, they simply never called back until early in 2005.

I've tried every-way I can think of to bring attention to what I know and what little has been done to find these girls. It's as if they were written off as lost after a week of searching by the FBI, State, County and Local police in the DC area.

This case is an 'open' aunsolved therefore none of the 'evidence' is available to FOIA. What the Montgomery County Police know they will not share and they have never stated that they have any tangible evidence or ever had any suspects at all. No one was a suspect until 1987 when they focused on Fred Coffey, then arrested in North Carolina for abduction and murder of a young girl near Charlotte.

The Montgomery County Police treated him as a primo suspect because of a similar murder case in Montgomery County that took place several months after the Lyons disappeared. Then in 2007 they dropped him because others were found responsible for that crime. So today they just show us picture of the 3 boxes of evidence they've collected over 35 years and lament that it remains unsolved.

As you read my responses to the moderator and others questions, you see that I have given a complete description of the vehicle, the driver and Sheila. Enough that I'm certain where they were taken and held after my sighting.

I'm asking is for your help to examine the circumstances of this case as a tragedy that should have been avoided. It can still be 'solved' by just doing the legwork to talk to the people who have remained silent all this time because either they don't understand the importance of what they remember or are unwilling to experience the frustration I have by being ignored.

I can send you more about what I've gathered and reported to the Montgomery County Police, the Lyon's family, to the reporter whose article was published in the Washington Star on Sunday April 6th 1975, and others directly affected by this case. I've come to appreciate that rather than being considered a screwball for asking them for information about this case, most have expressed a genuine concern about the tragedy of them never being found.

I can reassure you that is all I ask of you or anyone else who may help me, I 'only' want the girls found so they maybe returned home, as they should have been, if people would only have listened to the witnesses that morning in Manassas.

Thank you, I will appreciate a response from you whatever it may be. I just want to know that you too can appreciate the lingering pain of their loss so long ago and our hope that they will soon be remembered.

Marshall Dietz

Richard
09-17-2010, 08:36 AM
Marshall,
I sincerely hope that your efforts will help in bringing needed information and interest to this long unsolved case. Personally, I believe that it is solvable with the right information.

I agree with your comments and thoughts on this case, but would offer one correction to the following portion of your letter:

[quote=mdietz47;5600322....
... No one was a suspect until 1987 when they focused on Fred Coffey, then arrested in North Carolina for abduction and murder of a young girl near Charlotte.

The Montgomery County Police treated him as a primo suspect because of a similar murder case in Montgomery County that took place several months after the Lyons disappeared. Then in 2007 they dropped him because others were found responsible for that crime. ...

Although Montgomery County Police have NEVER formally announced that anyone was a "suspect" in this case, they did investigate and interview dozens of potential suspects prior to Fred Howard Coffey coming to light in late 1986 and early 1987. Then MCP made some statements to the press that Fred Coffey was the best lead that they had since day one. Only three days later, MCP announced to the press that they could not link Coffey to the Lyon case.

MCP NEVER made any media statements linking Fred Coffey to any other cases in their jurisdiction. However, in speaking with MCP cold case officers about the Kathy Lynn Beatty murder case of July/August 1975, I learned that they had attempted (unsuccessfully) to link a set of keys found near her body with Fred Coffey's place of work (Vitro Laboratories) and his stated residence (the Holiday Motel in Rockville). So, although they did investigate him somewhat with the Kathy Beatty abduction/murder, he could not be linked forensically and was never formally named as a suspect in her case either.

Your letter states that in 2007, MCP found persons other than Mr. Coffey to be responsible for a crime in Montgomery County. If you are referring to the Kathy Lynn Beatty murder, I can assure you that case remains unsolved and no one has been named or charged in her abduction and murder. There was some media and police interest in Kathy's case around that time because of some allegations and statements which had been recently made, but no suspects were developed from that information to my knowledge.

Regardless of whether or not Fred Coffey had anything to do with the Lyon girls disappearance or Kathy Beatty's murder, I feel that their cases need to be kept in the public's eye and that any and all information which can be released, should be released by police. I also encourge anyone who has personal knowledge of any kind regarding these cases to come forward and share their information with investigators.

Maznblu1
09-20-2010, 10:38 AM
“As you read my responses to the moderator and others questions, you see that I have given a complete description of the vehicle, the driver and Sheila. Enough that I'm certain where they were taken and held after my sighting. Marshall Dietz

I guess I don't understand how your sighting of the vehicle, driver and Sheila leads to you being certain where they were taken and held after the sighting?

mdietz47
09-23-2010, 02:46 AM
“I guess I don't understand how your sighting of the vehicle, driver and Sheila leads to you being certain where they were taken and held after the sighting?”

I thought I did explain that it is my belief that they were taken to a VA Blue Ridge county because of my description of the County personal tax sticker in the bottom of middle of the vehicle’s windshield.

Now we all have to consider that this happened 35+ years ago and a lot has changed in and around Northern Virginia/ Metro Washington DC. Depending on how long you've lived there and where you lived, you’re experiences will be totally different than mine.

I lived in the western half of Fairfax from 1971 to ’95 and worked in Prince William the whole time. I got married, had 2 kids and spent weekends traveling around and about the northwestern part of the Old Dominion from Winchester to Luray to Fredricksburg and the Eastern Neck. I’m not a native but I’m sure my Scotch-Irish Graham ancestors were.

In the ’70’s-90’s, nearly all the DC area counties on both side of the Potomac had personal property and emissions decals to prove residency, payment of personal auto tax and emissions testing. When the Post reported the ‘Manassass Sighting’ the dis-information was that the witness could not read the license plate well enough to determine the State of issuance. The visible numerals were in red on white, which could have been either MD or VA at the time since both states had plates of that color scheme on the roads.

The FBI and others decided that this witness’s sighting was bogus and dismissed him after checking ALL possible plate combinations in MD none of which matched his reported vehicle description, which might also be dis-information. Since they never called me back, they didn’t consider what I could have testified to a more accurate description of the vehicle.

When the MCP finally did their cursory recheck of their cold files in 2004, I told them again that the vehicle description, as reported in the Post, was wrong. It wasn’t a ’68 Falcon tan station wagon; it was a ‘70’s Torino Country Squire station wagon with a County personal property decal that had a cream background and only a red silhouette displayed in the center. There was NO state inspection sticker next to it. That meant the vehicle was from VA not MD and it was from a western County outside of the DC metro area.

So the perpetrator wasn’t a sexual predator but a sexual sadist who was willing to risk exposure from holding two kidnapped sisters somewhere for 10 days and then just cruise through Manassass on the way to wherever. That wherever is identified by the County sticker and what the cold case officer said to me to assure me that my sighting was real and to make me believe that they knew more than has been reported. That’s the privileged of State secrecy.

At the time, I was pissed that the MCP would ‘stake’ this case rather than try to solve it; but now I know that is standard procedure for ALL nvestigations. Ac criminal investigation’s sole objective is to identify and convict a likely suspect. If they don’t have a likely suspect, they have nothing to investigate and they never look for the victim.

mdietz47
10-22-2010, 10:30 PM
"I hope this decision on station wagons and why I say it was ‘70 Torino model can wait another day?"

Sorry to be off-track for so long but from Sept 23rd to Oct 22nd no one has anything to add?

OK, so back to the '70 Torino Squire wagon. How does one tell the difference between all those models?

In days past at least Detroit, unlike Stuttgart, made an effort to make each model year distinctively different in the details - in this instance it’s the interior. As I looked across to the bare legs on the rear seat, I saw the interior was blue vinyl and the seat surface was rolled – stitched into a series of parallel rows running the width not length of the surface. Nothing fancy. After reviewing all the vinyl interiors produced in the Ford wagons from ’68 to’ 75, only the ’70 Torino Squire wagon had a rolled vinyl seat matching what I saw.

So how do the participants respond to this conundrum? Do we just wait for the MCP to pipe up or what? For me I want to continue on as best I can but I welcome any support I can get. Some have said they have pictures of Coffee from the 80’s. I’d like to see them. If I identity him as the driver that’s a positive and I will endeavor to try to see him. He’s now in for, maybe he’s ready to fuss’ up and take responsibility or accept support to have his ‘illegal’ conviction overturned? That’s not to say he’ll get off or out, only that even the devil is due a fair not a rigged trial.

Guilty as hell or innocent as a baby, every defendant deserves a fair and honest hearing. For the past 25 years in North Carolina, the SBI has been screwing those charged with lies, distortions and fabricated evidence to secure convictions for their County prosecutors. Such abominable action would bring the devil to tears of joy for sending ‘innocent’ men and women to death row and promoting the dastardly ones for their ‘good’ convictions.

And can anyone tell me ‘how, I can get the VA DMV to search their registration records from ’70 to ’76 for all the 1970 Torino Squire wagons registered in Virginia? I can ask the County Sheriff to request a search but you know the red tape that entails? Does anyone know someone in Richmond that can just take a peek? All we need is a lead, a registration in the right county at the right time.

How is it that this country has come to respect the privacy of who owned a car over what heinous crime that owner may have committed? And if the Law won’t investigate why can we? Somehow the truth must and will be disclosed or aren’t we condemned to blinding ourselves to the evil acts openly committed in our midst without any means of disclosure? Why must we be blinded to this insidious evil so long after the fact? When is long enough that we can ask for the truth be disclosed?

This is my frustration. Evil is among us. We see the evidence in its actions. Still we have no right to ask why? Or who? Even after a generation or more, still we are denied access to the knowledge of what those who are pledged to protect us. How is this possible? Are we to die knowing with certainly that evil lived among us but have no opportunity to seek it out, indentify and disclose it?

Richard
10-25-2010, 10:55 AM
Most State's Motor Vehicle records for the 1970's were in paper form. They were compiled by different counties or districts and it took time to get them centrally filed. Some states back then would issue plates each year all at one time, rather than monthly like it is usually done now.

At the time of the Lyon Sisters' disappearance, Maryland was in the middle of an annual change over of license plates/registrations. Other states probably were as well, because there was a big push to get Bicentennial Plates on all cars in 1975.

Because of that change-over, the paper records for Maryland were still in local offices around the state, and it took Police a long and hard effort to go through them, trying to find all 100 plates which began with DMT-6xx.

Whether or not complete DMV records even still exist for those years would be questionable. And if they do exist, they would not be computerized, but rather the origional paper forms.

This being a Maryland case, it might be extremely difficult for Maryland police to motivate the Motor Vehicle Department of another state to begin a massive search for old records. I am not saying that it couldn't be fruitful, but only that it would take a huge effort to even get it started.

A major problem with pursuing this case is that there are many other possible connections, but also many different legal jurisdictions. A story which is too often repeated in the pursuit of justice.

In regard to Mr. Fred Coffey: He may or may not have had anything to do with the disappearance of Sheila and Kate, but it is a certain fact that he is a convicted serial child molester with convictions in both Virginia and North Carolina. And a fact that he is a convicted child murderer serving a life sentence in North Carolina. He is strongly suspected of a number of other child killings in other states. He has certainly had quite a number of fair hearings, both in court and at parole board meetings.

thefirstman
10-26-2010, 11:52 PM
Wow Marshall what you have been writing here on this case is very impressive and holds great potential for helping to solve this excruciating case.

I was unaware of the threads you writing until today when Jeb telephoned me to point it out. I have written on other Lyon sisters websleuth threads and the missing trio threads. I believe these two cases are linked.

I believe that James Mitchell DeBardeleben stole 3 maryland state police uniforms in a hold up of a dry cleaners in Baltimore in Feb of 1974 and used his fake cop ruse to win the girls over.

What is clear to me is that LE circa 1975/76 did not connect the dots to even create a hypothesis that the girls were taken by a police impersonator. Had they done this in 1975 they would have been woefully neglectful to not warn the public.

DeBardeleben was the ultimate Wheaton maggot in that he conducted bank robberies, elaborate schemes to rob the elderly, forgeries and purchased his printing press to conduct counterfeiting operations all in Wheaton. He robbed the bank in the parking lot in Wheaton plaza a year or two before the Lyon sisters abductions by going to the home of the bank manager after he left for work and put a gun to his wife's head and her call her husband - pay him or he'll murder me. The pickup site was originally Wheaton Library's public bathroom.

DeBardeleben is serving 375 years for being a sexual sadist amongst other things. Debardeleben's crimes were of a nature that experts on sexual sadists and serial killers consider him to have been one of the worst ever known. He created safe houses and stole victims away for days. He handcuffed them to I-bolts in a closet floor and was known to have kept them there for days on end.

He was a very careful planner. Very cold and very calculating.

He married a woman from Manassass. A high school girl from the class of 70. When his mother died in Fort Worth in 74 and shortly there after his wife Carin left him he had extreme emotional upset and he escalated his criminal activity considerably. He was already a murderer in 1965, a rapist in PG county in 68, known to have murdered again in cold blood in 71.

His criminal name was/is "the mall passer" because he loved committing crimes at malls. He was especially fond of conducting criminal behavior during holiday times. He was a counterfeiter who funded himself by passing small amounts of $ at malls so he could live out his more sinister behavior as a kidnapper, rapist, sexual sadist, and murderer.

He was arrested in 1976 for passing a fake $100 in a Montgomery county mall (could have been Wheaton plaza). At the time of his arrest the Secret Service found his apartment with its printing press, and a large quantity of home made pornography, often involving ligature marks, drugged, frightened and seemingly forced subjects. His photos were often of young or "barely pubescent" girls. The Secret Service failed to do anything about pursuing these photos in the time frame of his 1976 arrest and conviction.

He was released 2 or 3 years later. Upon his return to the DC area in 1978 or 79 his exploits as a sexual sadists were extensive. He was convicting for kidnapping and raping women for days in Baltimore, Ocean City MD, Delaware, Frederick, VA. It was/is well documented that he had safe houses in remote parts of VA.

In 1981 he was convicted of raping and sodomizing a young woman in front of the IBM building in Manassass.

DeBardeleben's criminal profile fits the crime at a very high level.

thefirstman
10-27-2010, 12:07 AM
Marshall, responding to your understated theories about LE's possible lack of motivation to solve the case I believe the following:

MCP made a calculated decision to (as poor and reprehensible as it was now that we have the clarity of hindsight) to not pursue you in 1975 because they must have feared losing control of the case to the FBI.

It was a turf war. You would have corroborated beyond any doubt the veracity of the sighting in April of 75. The case may have then belonged to the FBI. It could even be that the family did not want this. They may have felt more comfortable with the men they knew in the MCPD and felt the best way to secure their daughters return was to stay with the men they knew. We all, tragically, know how that worked out.

Once they buried that sighting - possibly written off as a hoax other layers are created.

Some of the possible layers have been highlighted on this thread - like lack of cooperation from neighboring VA counties due to financial or territorial restraints.

As far as how you contacted the family - you did the right thing - the only thing you could do. That said they must have had dozens if not 100's of people contacting them. Mostly people with the best of intentions, some not, and after a while they have had to make some decisions to shield themselves from the nightmares of getting involved in false leads, false hopes, and worse.

So while I do take seriously the understated suggestion that you are making that it may be that the perpetrator(s) may use religion as a cloak for sinister, sadistic crimes - I think the explanations for LE's behavior lie elsewhere.

MCP wanted the case for their own reasons and the family may have wanted this. You and your eye witness account may have made that impossible at the time. Once LE moved away from you and your testimony LE had nothing. Then layers are created around territoriality, lost opportunities, time lapses, and the like.

Richard
10-27-2010, 05:14 PM
Firstman,

You are correct to state that this case is and has always been one in the jurisdiction of the Montgomery County Police.

However, in 1975, no single event or series of events would have mandated FBI involvement. There is an interesting discussion concerning child abductions on the official FBI website. To quote briefly:

... In 1932, Congress gave the FBI jurisdiction under the “Lindbergh Law” to immediately investigate any reported mysterious disappearance or kidnapping involving a child of “tender age”—usually 12 or younger. And just to be clear, ... there does NOT have to be a ransom demand and the child does NOT have to cross state lines or be missing for 24 hours.

Source:
Federal Bureau of Investigation - Crimes Against Children - Non-Family Child Abductions

LINK:

http://www2.fbi.gov/hq/cid/cac/kidnap.htm


In the case of the Lyon Sisters, the FBI actually did participate and assist in the investigation, but they did not take it over from MCP.

There was in fact at least one ransom demand. The girls were certainly missing for over 24 hours, and the fact that Wheaton, Maryland is so close to Washington DC, Virginia, and Pennsylvania, a logical conclusion would be that they may have been taken out of state. Certainly the alleged sighting of the girls in a Ford Station Wagon in Manassas, VA could also be a factor. Any or all of these factors could have been cited by the FBI or MCP to give the FBI jurisdiction in the case.

thefirstman
10-28-2010, 08:24 AM
Richard,

Thanks for the response.

I was/am aware that Montgomery County Police have always had jurisdiction in the case.

I was aware of the ransom note and remember in real time (I was 9 years old at the time) pertaining to the Annapolis court house drama.

I did not know for sure about the FBI's involvement until recent confirmation on this thread.

Marshall's understated contention could be interpreted as one in which conspirational aspects of the case existed from earliest stages. I am simply attempting to offer alternative explanations to MCPD's lack of contact to Marshall after the sighting in Manassass in early April 1975.

If MCPD's lack of interest in having Marshall interviewed were "political" or motivated by the departments desire to maintain control of the case, it expands the frame of the possible motivations of the people and institutions involved in examining the case.

thefirstman
10-28-2010, 03:02 PM
The article below I got from the Washington Post archives. I had a theory that the Lyon girls were possible taken from the streets of Kensington from a police impersonator. I was curious to know if the Post had archived any articles pertaining to police impersonating that would fit the time line in question.
(In my post above I stated the incorrect date of the article I transcribed below. The correct date of the crime in the article was Feb of 1975 where in the last paragraph of the below article stated that a dry cleaners in Baltimore was robbed of said uniforms).


Impostor Sought by State Police
By Courtland MilloyWashington Post Staff Writer
The Washington Post (1974-Current file); Sep 19, 1975;
ProQuest Historical Newspapers The Washington Post (1877 - 1993)
pg. C1

Maryland State Police are searching for a man believed to be impersonating a trooper. Police said that the alleged impostor was severely beaten when he halted a truck driver and said he was speeding.
The man wore a uniform similar to the one used by state troopers and used a siren and red flashing lights concealed in the grill of his 1974 dark green Chrsyler to halt the truck driver police said.
"Indications are that the impersonator is homosexual" according to the police bulletin. "The truck driver" state police man Walter Johnson said yesterday "said the man began acting real funny. The driver had a night stick with him and beat the man up pretty bad" said Johnson.
The driver was stopped by the alleged impostor along the John F Kennedy Highway (Interstate 95) near Baltimore at 0:30 PM on the night of Sept 9. The driver told the police later that the man dressed in the troopers uniform accused him of speeding and asked him to sit in the patrol car while a summons was filled out.
The alleged impostor was described as a white male in his mid 20's 5 feet 11, 170 pounds and had a tatoo on his right forarm that read "Black Panther". His name tag read "Rook" police said.
The trooper wore a tan uniform with a black waist belt and holster, police said. The make of the gun he wore could not be determined, police said the truck driver told them.
The man also wore several ornaments on his collar, according to police, and he had a 23 channel citizens' radio with two outside antennas connected to it.
Printed in black on an orange background were the words "official use" over the top of a Maryland license plate with an unknown number, police said. The front seat held a black summons book, a brief case and a tan colored Stetson hat, police said.
Since Maryland started a special crack down on speeders in August, using numerous unmarked cars, some citizens have expressed concerns that they might be stopped by someone other than a state trooper.
According to state police LT Lawrence Gibbs "if there is any speculation that a person is not a police man - that he cannot identify himself - there is no need to stop".
Gibbs added that the incident with the truck driver is the only one of its type since State police since the speeding crackdown began. It was also the first incident reported to police since the disappearance in February of 3 state police uniforms from a dry cleaning firm in Baltimore.
Three months later, in April, nearly $10,000 worth of police badges and other ornaments were stolen from a Baltimore manufacturing company.

Richard
10-28-2010, 10:36 PM
Firstman, thanks for the Article. I had not seen this one before, and it certainly provides food for thought.

I recall seeing an early article which quoted Mrs. Mary Lyon, mother of Sheila and Kate, as stating that she could imagine the girls being tricked into a car by someone showing them a police badge. She did not state this as having come from police investigators, but rather as her own possible theory.

I wonder if the theft of the Maryland State Police uniforms, mentioned in the article, was in conjunction with a larger scale robbery/burglary, or if they were the specific target of the theft?

Sounds like this particular guy bit off more than he could chew with the trucker.

The scheme to dress as a Law Enforcement Officer is something that is seen from time to time in various states. Actually, it would not be hard (then or now) for some one to come up with a pretty close copy of any police uniform - and leagally too. Back in the mid 1970's, I remember visiting a very large uniform store in Tijuana, Mexico where absolutely ANY kind of uniform, badge, and insignia could be had for a very reasonable price.

One of the potential "Persons of Interest" discussed in this case was a guy by the name of Michael Pearch. In April of 1975, Pearch donned an Army field jacket, a rucksack full of ammo, a large knife, and a .45 Automatic pistol, and began a mass shooting spree which he started at Wheaton Plaza. His spree ended when a Montgomery County Police Officer shot him dead with a 12 guage shotgun blast.

Pearch probably had some mental and emotional problems, but was never in any kind of legal trouble until the shootings began. He lived on Dennis Ave, only a couple of blocks from the elementary school that Kate and her younger brother attended. Pearch knew the residential roads of Kensington and was a regular shopper at Wheaton Plaza.

He had previously served in the US Army and was involved in Counter Intelligence Operations in Germany. He had claimed to friends and family that he had been involved in kidnappings, and had used false passports and identifications/identities in the course of his Army work. He was said to have been rather paranoid, and to have carried a gun everywhere.

Pearch was never considered by MCP as a viable suspect in the Lyon Case, as far as I could determine.

thefirstman
10-28-2010, 10:48 PM
My crime theory: DeBardeleben as the potential perpetrator
3 girls go missing from a Fort Worth mall on Dec 23, 1974 - The Missing Trio
Please note the similarities between the Fort Worth mall and Wheaton Plaza. An outdoor mall set in an area surrounded by modest middle class homes. Multiple kidnappings of middle class, young girls in broad daylight during a packed holiday shopping day.

Note arrives in Missing Trio's mailbox as part of the criminal's ruse on the early morning hours of Dec 24, 1974 - possibly written from the victim Rachel Trlico.

Security guard stated that he encountered pickup truck with 3 girls in the cab with an impostor security guard. Due to rain and brief interaction - actual security guard was confused and assumed said kidnapper was another mall security employee and let kidnapper get away.

Feb of 1975 DeBardeleben plans, stakes out and robs dry cleaners of 3 Maryland State Police uniforms.
Arrogant and emboldened by possession of said uniforms, DeBardeleben mocks the police and the community in advance of his highly calculated, planned and organized crime of kidnapping girls off the street of Kensington. His mockery was to designed to call attention to himself as a creep, and a potential perpetrator while posing as a Tape Recorder Man (TRM).

TRM was FIRST reported to have been seen in the February 1975 time frame - which coincides perfectly with the police uniform robbery time frame.

On the morning of March 25, 1975 DeBardeleben - dressed as a Maryland State Police trooper - drives into the Kensington neighborhood to stake out which girls to attempt to kidnap. DeBardeleben was well known to have been a career criminal for years if not decade or more in the Wheaton/Kensington area. So he knew the streets better then most anyone - this is well documented.
Sitting in his car, parked in a location maximally positioned to avoid detection, he waits for the perfect victims.
When the girls walk past his vehicle he encounters them as a Maryland State Trooper who was soliciting their help in catching a counterfeiter in the act. He needs the girls to speak into his microphone which was actually "a device designed to communicate to other officers who are also involved in the catching the counterfeiter in this sting". The girls speaking into the mic help the officer keep a low profile so the counterfeiter will not suspect that he is actually an "undercover cop". Such a conversation allows "the officer" to talk to his colleagues without being detected by the criminal.

This explanation offers a meaningful explanation for how the TRM walked into Wheaton Plaza - within a few moments or minutes began speaking to two and only two, young, relatively savvy middle class girls who came from a loving home - the Lyon girls. The TRM conversation was brief, but just long enough for the perpetrator to mock the police, the community and the world by publicly interacting with the girls within minutes or hours of their disappearance.

Debardeleben drives back to the previous location in Kensington and waits for the girls (as was likely organized prior to the TRM drama in the mall).

Girls get into DeBardeleben's car fully believing he is a Maryland State Trooper.

thefirstman
10-31-2010, 12:27 AM
A Trail of Murder, Rape, Kidnaping
By Lena H. Sun Washington Post Staff Writer
The Washington Post (1974-Current file); Jul 9, 1984;
ProQuest Historical Newspapers The Washington Post (1877 - 1993)
pg. B3

The Secret Service initially dubbed him the Mall Passer because he was suspected of passing counterfeit bills at shopping malls around the country.

But Federal agents said they soon discovered that James Mitchell DeBardeleben, once an owner of "The Naked Eye", a Washington photo studio, left a trail from Louisiana to Connecticut. That trail has lead to charges that he committed murder, rape, sodomy, and kidnapping in seven states including Maryland and Virginia.

Using Northern Virginia as his base and counterfeit dollars to finance his operations, police say that DeBardeleben is portrayed in court records as a man with a pronounced hatred for women, traveled the east coast with as many as 26 aliases. What is more unusual is that DeBardeleben appeared to have specific modus operandi for specific crimes.

When passing counterfeit money he often left his false teeth in the car, an investigator said. When abducting women, police say, he often posed as a police official, using flashing lights and phony police identification to lure unsuspecting women into his car. In some of those cases women were bound, forced to perform sexual acts, often in rooms where alarms were attached to the door to prevent their escape, and photographed in the nude, police said.

Many of those crimes - dating as far back as 13 years -were unsolved until recently. After DeBardeleben's arrest last year and the subsequent seizure of tape recordings, photographs, and notes detailing acts of torture numerous jurisdictions including Manassass and Ocean City have re-opened investigations.

DeBardeleben 44 whose criminal record dates back to his teenage days in Fort Worth, Texas, according to court records, is in custody awaiting sentencing later this month for counterfeiting charges in Charlotte, NC. Next he will face federal kidnapping charges in Baltimore in connection with the rape and abduction of an Ocean City woman 5 years ago. The US attorney's office in Alexandria says it is also investigating DeBardeleben on counterfeiting charges.

Because of what he called DeBardeleben's extensive criminal record, Assistant US attorney Kenneth Anderson has asked the judge who presided at DeBardeleben's trial in Charlotte to sentence DeBardeleben as a "dangerous special offender". That means that DeBardeleben could be sentence up to 25 years instead of the maximum 15, on each of the 4 counts of passing phony money.

I think that this man's record and conviction...do not fully apprise the court of this man's threat to society Andersen told the judge. Sentencing is set for July 26.

DeBardeleben has been convicted three times for counterfeiting - once in 1976 in Alexandria and twice in the past year in past year in Tennessee. He was sentenced to 3 years for the 1976 charge and served approximately 2 years, federal prosecutor said. He has been sentenced for 35 years for the Tennessee charges.

In Manassass, DeBardeleben is charged in the 1981 abduction of a Prince William County resident. Investigators say it will be a year before the city can begin prosecution because of the numerous charges elsewhere.

In Maryland, he is accused of impersonating a plainclothes police officer and kidnapping an Ocean City woman 5 years ago. DeBardeleben is expected to go to trial in Baltimore this fall said assistant US attorney Patrick Deadey.

In that case, a 20 year old woman told police that she was walking home from work on June 2, 1979 when a man in a car pulled up along side her, flashed a badge, and identified himself as a Delaware plain clothes policeman. He "arrested" her, bound her with white adhesive tape and handcuffed her hands and feet. She was taken to house
in an unknown location in Maryland where he forced her to perform a sex act with him, she told police.

Police say that the man insisted on being called "daddy" and told the woman: "My ex-old lady screwed me around and I'm gonna take it out on you and women in general".

The portrait of DeBardeleben that emerges from court records and interviews with law enforcement officials is of a man obsessed with his hatred of women, a passion authorities say he documented on film, paper and tape recordings.

Evidence siezed by the Secret Service from DeBardeleben's storage lockers in Manassass and Alexandria includes "numerous hand written notes" by DeBardeleben which detail, a court affidavit says, this hatred and "tapes in which DeBardeleben, uses a falsetto voice fantasizes about torturing women."

The notes describe the rope, tape and chloroform that DeBardeleben allegedly used to kidnap women and they detail "how to pull women over on the road by the use of police identification and police lights" Secret Service Agent Dennis Foos stated in an affidavit.

In the Manassass case, a 19 year old woman told police her car was pulled over in the early hours of Feb 5, 1981 on South Bound Rte 28 near the IBM complex by a man driving a car with flashing red lights. She was abducted and sexually assaulted police said.

Louisiana authorities have accused DeBardeleben with the April 1982 murder of a real estate woman. He was indicted last month with the hanging death of Jean McPhaul, 37 of Bossier City. Detectives there say a man posing as a wealthy doctor, "Dr. Zack" from Midland Texas made and appointment with the woman to see a home in an exclusive neighborhood. She was found the next day stabbed and strangled, her body hanging from a beam in the attic of the home.

Richard
10-31-2010, 10:14 PM
With all that seems to be known about DeBardeleben, one would think that if he was involved in the Lyon Sisters' disappearance, some sort of evidence would have been found. He wrote extensively about how and why he kidnapped mature women, and even photographed them and spoke of them on a tape recorder.

Is there any such evidence regarding the Lyon girls? Is there anything in the police files or in the evidence gathered which links him to crimes of any kind against children? If, for instance, he had photos of children or information about any kind of items or mention of children, then he would seem a viable suspect in this case.

He is no doubt, a total maggot in so many other ways.

thefirstman
11-01-2010, 06:31 AM
Thanks for the inquiry.

This is what I have found out or discovered in my crime theory investigation (which of course is limited to materials, literature, "evidence" available to Joe Q Public).

Repeated statements have been made by law enforcement, Michaud the author of Beyond Cruel, the A&E documentary and so on, about finding an abundance of homemade pornography with "barely pubescent" girls.

Also, DeBardeleben was arrested and convicted of a 1976 counterfeiting charge and several things happened at that time: 1. The Secret Service found an abundance of homemade pornography and failed to pursue it for prosecution. 2. He had a totally separate house (at least one that authorities later came to discover) likely rented under an alias, that upon arrest all of his personal belongings were taken from that resident, put curb side and destroyed or taken. 3. At his 1983 arrest for counterfeit and then subsequent crimes at least one storage locker's contents was documented as mis-handled and all belongings destroyed or disposed of. 4. Upon his release from prison in 1978 his records (maybe he paid someone off) read "DECEASED" so authorities had it be that DeBardeleben was dead!

Please note that I have been told by LE in MCP that one of their top suspects today is James Mitchell DeBardeleben. Strangely enough, I have spoken to Rusty, the brother of Rachel Trlico (one of the Missing Trio) several times by phone and he stated that the Fort Worth Police had very little interaction with MCP until Rusty (prompted by me) brought the case to their attention. According to Rusty, MCP was aware and interested in the Missing Trio case (as connected to the Lyon sisters) but they had not been in contact from their end either.

As certain things were turned over more, like DeBardeleben's Mother's residents in Fort Worth, other evidence of kidnappings and the such were discovered. Also, it seems something shady occurred in the transfer of the deed of that house on Spurgeon street, as Rusty reported to me that he contacted the next owner (documented in city records) and this man was a banker who totally denied any recollection or knowledge, much rather ownership of this house. This banker's name was an unusual one and unlikely that there were two high ranking bank officials with similar names.

DeBardeleben flew so beneath the radar because he was a counterfeiter. Unlike Ted Bundy and other sexual sadist/ serial killers who lived amongst us - DeBardeleben lived 100% below the radar. That was part of what set him apart and made him so dangerous and unknown by most - including the police.

Don't you wonder why - reading that newspaper article from the Washington Post about DeBardeleben in 1984 as to why MCP did not at least make him a suspect, and question the public at that time - as they would come to do with Coffey 3 years later? I do! I mean the main connection they had with Coffey and this case was proximity - which is a big deal mind you - And DeBardeleben had proximity.

His being put away from 1976 to 78 actually may have helped him get away with the crime and created the opportunity for him to do so much more damage in this world!

It seems MCP BLEW IT circa 1976 and again 1983 with even coming up with a police impersonator theory and/or looking into DeBardeleben as a suspect.

thefirstman
11-01-2010, 09:53 AM
Below you will see a link to Michaud's book and a brief synopsis of its contents.

Please note the last sentence that I copied from this website below. I put *** to highlight what was said repeatedly about DeBardeleben. Also I had a brief interaction with Michaud by e-mail on the Lyon sisters - DeBardeleben possible connection. I may publish this interaction between the author and I as well.

http://www.stephenmichaud.com/lethalshadow.htm

he locker's interior was a jumble of vinyl briefcases, plastic envelopes, bulging paper bags, portfolios and other containers, including two large footlockers. Foos opened one, and Mertz the other. The agents' notes indicate that the second item they inspected that evening was a bag containing an empty gun case, ammunition, handcuffs, and twine. Then a dark blue ski mask and an Icoflex large-format camera, ideal for counterfeit work.

Photographing everything as they handled it, the search team inspected a red plastic pouch containing counterfeit money and a police badge. Another bag from the footlockers were filled with handwritten notes, phone numbers, and women's names and addresses. There were drugs, too, plus a coke kit (mirror and razor blades) and a kit for testing drug purity, complete with a gram scale.

Over the next three hours, the agents identified and seized a single aluminum printing plate and $52,760 worth of counterfeit money in various stages of completion, much of it sorted into stacks and graded A, A-, B+ and so on according to color-coded wrappers around each stack. They found a camera tripod, eyebolts, a man's hat with a bloodstained visor, a device for punching out auto ignitions (a car thief's standard tool), various fake identifications, a pair of women's underpants with a severely distended elastic band, whips, a dildo, and another bag containing what Greg Mertz took to be, in his words, a "death kit": shoelaces, a choker chain, K-Y jelly, and handcuffs.

There were wads of clay for taking key imprints and several metal key blanks. The agents found an abundance of newspaper clips, most reporting on crimes of various sorts, an ample collection of self-help texts' works of pop psychology as well as scholarly and extensively underlined psychiatric texts, and a wide sampling of raunch books, magazines, tapes and photos-hundreds of photos.

Everyone recognized early on in the search that it would be impossible, at the site, to sort through the enormous volume of material; evidence connecting DeBardeleben with counterfeiting, as well as documents that might point the investigation toward its Grail, his press and plates, were hopelessly intermixed with the rest of his papers and gear, both innocuous items such as clothing and the seriously troubling police equipment and handcuffs and brutally explicit pictures of females, ***some hardly pubescent and many looking either drugged or battered or frightened for their lives***.

thefirstman
11-01-2010, 10:10 AM
Below you will find an email I received from Michaud after I reached out to him about my crime theory connection of DeBardeleben and the Lyon girls.

Later I reached out to Rusty - Rachel Trlico's (Missing Trio) younger brother and he stated that Fort Worth LE had missed looking at DeBardeleben as suspect and therefore had NEVER had contact with the Secret Service. FWPD, at that time (about a year or 15 months ago) had NO contact with Montgomer County PD.

This makes me trust Michaud's and the Secret Service's responses less. More to the point, the Secret Service did NOT investigate the considerable evidence that DeBardeleben was likely involved in kidnapping, raping and torturing girls and women during his 1976 arrest.

Here is Michaud's book again detailing how Secret Service agents familiar with DeBardeleben reacted when he was arrested by them for a SECOND time (first one in 1976) in 1983:

After a brief interval of embarrassed silence, Foos retrieved DeBardeleben's file and reviewed it. His worry turned to alarm as Foos leafed through the old records, especially the inventory of what was found in DeBardeleben's house, and a report by agent Mike Stephens of his 1976 interview with DeBardeleben's estranged wife. Foos found the six-feet, four-inch tall Stephens, called "Stretch," at his desk in the Special Investigations squad area. "Hey, Stretch," said Foos as he dropped DeBardeleben's arrest photo on Stephens's desk. "Recognize this guy?"

Stephens did, instantly, and in the same moment felt something twist in his stomach. He looked up and answered slowly. "Yeah, I do."

Here's Michaud's e-mail to me from July 09.

Dear Mr. (thefirstman):

I have spoken with former SS Agent Mike Stephens, who in turn contacted his onetime colleagues, Agents Mertz and Foos. They recollect conferring closely with the Montgomery County Police after Mike DeBardeleben’s arrest, and jointly reviewing the evidence. Mike says that they were unable to positively connect DeBardeleben to the Lyon case, nor could they positively exclude him.

If the Montgomery County Police cold case squad would like to consult with Stephens, he’d be very happy to sit down with them and go over the material once again. He can be reached at 202 555-5555 (not the real #). I hope this helps. That was a heart-breaking case. Stephen Michaud.

Richard
11-16-2010, 11:10 AM
There has been some interesting discussion in this thread concerning an incident which took place in April 1975, in which a beige or tan Ford station wagon was sighted in Manassas, Virginia. The station wagon was reported to have held two girls, bound and gagged and it drove away at a high rate of speed.

I posted some news stories from the Washington Post Newspaper concerning that reported sighting on the thread of this featured case section titled "News Reports and Articles..." See post number 71.

Keep in mind that these stories were written in April 1975 and they were based on police press conferences during the time of the initial investigation, just two weeks after the girls disappeared.

sasolis
02-11-2012, 08:01 AM
I remember this like it was yesterday and for some reason the girl's dissappearance haunted me. I was 11 at the time and can sadly remember their pictures all over store fronts. My sister and I used to walk to the Glen Burnie Mall all the time, 6 miles from where we lived. That abrubtly came to an end after this event.
I wonder about the note? What type of bottle, color of the ink, was it on notebook paper, possibly a scap piece from a local hotel or restaurant, a napkin? Any attempt at fingerprinting? Where in VA, why is that blocked out?
Reading all this background information has me wondering why it seems like such important details were possibly overlooked or thrown to the wayside as not so important.
I will continue to follow, thank you.

Richard
02-11-2012, 09:24 PM
Welcome to Websleuths and to the Lyon Sisters' forum, sasolis. Thank you for your comments, hope you post more.

In regard to your question about a note: I have never seen any mention of such a note in any of my research or in any press coverage. I tend to doubt that any such note (if it really existed) was a genuine correspondance from the girls. The official line from Montgomery County Police is that the girls were never heard from after 25 March 1975.

If police actually had such a note in evidence, they certainly would have commented on it to the news media - as they did with so many other potential leads, like the Tape Recorder Man, the Tan Station Wagon, the sightings by various teens, and the Ransom Demand phone calls.

I believe that it was MDeitz who mentioned the note's possible existance in one of his posts, so he would have to answer your questions regarding specifics. There was some discussion about it possibly being an "Urban Legend" in one of his posts.

Thewop356
07-12-2012, 10:00 PM
I have been looking into the 1979 disappearance of Tina Faye Kemp from neighboring Delaware and during my research I have gathered a lot of info on Debardeleben. He was most certainly kidnapping pre-adolescent and young teenage girls all over the east coast, but mostly in the Delaware-Maryland-Virginia-Pennsylvania-New Jersey area. Officials found his hideouts and safe houses all throughout Northern Virginia and Maryland. I would bet that Debardeleben was responsible for so many of the young girls who went missing in our area in the mid to late 70s and if it was ever proven how many or who he actually abducted, that there would be a public outcry about why law enforcement officials did not investigate him much deeper. The secret service still has a ton of the pictures described in Michaud's book about him and they could use those to identify some victims, but most claim the LE does not have the resources to do so. I feel so confident that if an independent citizen driven group could get permission and resources from the government to look through that evidence, they would solve dozens of missing persons cases. It is really ashame that a thing like an agency not having the time or resources is preventing parents or family members from knowing what happened to their loved ones. I have recently been in touch with someone who was remotely involved with Debardeleben's case and he said that he personally would be afraid of going through that evidence now with the technology that we have available because of what he might find. He also claimed that some of the eveidence that was destroyed or set aside for garbage by the storage places where Debardeleben kept his things actually contained bloody panties and other items that could have easily been processed for DNA now and that the secret service may still have some evidence it recovered that can be tested but that it will never probably be tested because nobody wants to be finacially responsible to do so. I just find that morally wrong.

Motherof5
05-27-2013, 11:43 PM
I've read a couple of books about DeBardeleben and can honestly say that it would have been simple for him to take them. He had more than enough items to make himself look like LE and any child would obey LE. Has anyone compared his photo to the TRM sketch? Just look at the noses. DeBardeleben had a strange looking nose and so does the TRM in the sketch. DeBardeleben hated ALL females...I'm not even sure if hate is a strong enough word. Also, when he was torturing his victims,he made them call him"daddy"....he's the devil.

Motherof5
05-27-2013, 11:51 PM
He bought a press from BPS Printing Service in Wheaton,MD.

Jeb
06-05-2013, 10:13 AM
Debardeleben was too tall, to be the TRM I saw. Also, Coffey has a similar looking nose to the composit sketch.

Markybug
06-07-2013, 12:24 AM
Bump for this.

Motherof5
06-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Ok...I've read 2 books on DeBardeleben and I will say again that it would have been easy for him to pull this off....but I don't think it was him. He took his victims after dark,for the most part. His daytime victims were real estate agents. While he would have felt perfectly at ease at a shopping mall,that was his place of "business" and I don't think he would mix business with his abductions and murders. He would pass fake bills at a mall in one state and then drive 300 miles to another state to hunt for a victim all in the same day. I don't think he stole the missing police uniforms either as he didn't seem to use them. He used fake badges and rigged his car with police lights. So he could have...but I don't think so.

Richard
06-14-2013, 01:15 PM
Of course, we do not know for certain that the girls were actually abducted, because there is no available/identified forensic evidence and no witness actually saw them taken. That said, it is a very likely probability that they were abducted.

Going on that assumption (that they were abducted), there are many scenarios and theories of how it could have happened or who might have taken the girls. While some potential suspects might seem better candidates than others, we have to remember that we are starting with an assumption and then trying to match various circumstantial facts about those potential suspects to the scenario.

The Montgomery County Police are the official investigating agency for this case. They have never named anyone as a suspect in the girls' disappearance, although they have investigated numerous people over the years to try to establish any kind of link. Some of those individuals are mentioned in these threads as "Potential or Possible Suspects", but they have never been so designated by MCP.

The "Possible Suspects" that I have mentioned in past posts are/were all dirtbags of one sort or another. All - with only one exception - were convicted in other cases of serious crimes such as murder, rape, abduction, etc.

The exception was a 30 year old man named Michael Pearch. Although he was never convicted of anything, he was shot to death by Montgomery County Police while in the midst of a shooting spree in downtown Wheaton. Several people were killed and seriously wounded by Pearch, beginning at Wheaton Plaza and ending only a short distance away. Those shootings occurred only three weeks after the girls went missing.

Pearch has been discussed in detail in other posts and threads, but my point in mentioning him here is that prior to his Shooting Spree and death, he was nowhere on the radar. He was an honorably discharged Army sergeant, a College student, History buff, Artist, etc. He was a law abiding guy, well liked by people who knew him. In thinking about him, one has to wonder if he simply cracked that day in April 1975 or if his mental health problems and violence had occurred earlier.

Is it coincidence that of all the many "Possible Suspects" Pearch lived closest to the Lyon family? That he knew the back roads of the Kensington Housing area well? That he was trained and experienced in "counterintelligence" in the Army and claimed to have been involved in using phoney badges, Identification cards, and Abductions while in Germany?

Pearch had his own vehicle (a green Volkswagon) and he had a very remote country home in Friendsville, Maryland. He was also known to carry a pistol on his person at all times. He did not have a regular job and so had time on his hands whenever he was in Kensington visiting his mother. He could come and go as he pleased.

We have often discussed theories of how someone could have abducted the girls, and who might have done it. The list of "Possible Suspects" contains a number of very evil characters. Some were active both before and after the girls disappeared. Certainly, any one of them could have abducted the girls, but of all of them, which one had the necessary skills, opportunity, vehicle, remote location, and knowledge of the roads in Kensington to have effectively abducted Sheila and Kate?

Marilynilpa
06-15-2013, 01:28 PM
I have been looking into the 1979 disappearance of Tina Faye Kemp from neighboring Delaware and during my research I have gathered a lot of info on Debardeleben. He was most certainly kidnapping pre-adolescent and young teenage girls all over the east coast, but mostly in the Delaware-Maryland-Virginia-Pennsylvania-New Jersey area. Officials found his hideouts and safe houses all throughout Northern Virginia and Maryland. I would bet that Debardeleben was responsible for so many of the young girls who went missing in our area in the mid to late 70s and if it was ever proven how many or who he actually abducted, that there would be a public outcry about why law enforcement officials did not investigate him much deeper. The secret service still has a ton of the pictures described in Michaud's book about him and they could use those to identify some victims, but most claim the LE does not have the resources to do so. I feel so confident that if an independent citizen driven group could get permission and resources from the government to look through that evidence, they would solve dozens of missing persons cases. It is really ashame that a thing like an agency not having the time or resources is preventing parents or family members from knowing what happened to their loved ones. I have recently been in touch with someone who was remotely involved with Debardeleben's case and he said that he personally would be afraid of going through that evidence now with the technology that we have available because of what he might find. He also claimed that some of the eveidence that was destroyed or set aside for garbage by the storage places where Debardeleben kept his things actually contained bloody panties and other items that could have easily been processed for DNA now and that the secret service may still have some evidence it recovered that can be tested but that it will never probably be tested because nobody wants to be finacially responsible to do so. I just find that morally wrong.

Regarding the photos, perhaps they should be made public for identification.

I never have felt Debardeleben took the Lyon sisters, but he certainly was a sick SOB.

Motherof5
07-08-2013, 12:42 PM
You had stated that Mileski gave a general description of the area in which the girls were buried. Where did he say they were buried?

Richard
07-10-2013, 09:24 PM
You had stated that Mileski gave a general description of the area in which the girls were buried. Where did he say they were buried?

I have discussed Ray Mileski in some detail in the past, but for the benefit of new readers of these threads, here is a little background:

Ray Mileski was a former Marine who lived with his family (wife and three sons) in a small house in Suitland, Prince Georges County, Maryland. He did custom cabinet work for a living. He was in his mid 40's in 1975 when the Lyon girls went missing.

In November 1977, Mileski got into an argument with his oldest son (age 18) and killed him in the basement with a highpowered hunting rifle. He then fired at his wife who came running down the stairs, killing her and wounding his youngest son.

Mileski turned himself in, was tried and convicted of two counts of murder and sentenced to life in prison.

My information on Mileski comes from several sources, including letters that he wrote from prison (which were passed on to Montgomery County Police). I do not know what specific information they have, but certainly more than I have, since they had the opportunity to interview him.

Supposedly, back in 1982, Mileski made some statements to other inmates which indicated that he knew something about the Lyon case and that the girls were buried near his Suitland, MD home. MCP officers actually dug some in his back yard, but found only bird bones.

One source stated that the area of the burial site was in a large gravel pit area near his home called Andrew Jackson Pits. This area is now the site of Andrew Jackson Middle School and a large housing subdivision.

Motherof5
07-10-2013, 10:06 PM
My apologies.

Richard
07-20-2013, 01:24 AM
Mileski might have had solid, true information regarding the Lyon sisters disappearance, or he might have simply been a loud mouth jerk who wanted to gain some kind of better treatment by gaming the police.

He was certainly an unstable individual and capable of great violence. He could have been the perpetrator of an act of abduction, but no solid forensic evidence ever connected him to them.

Circumstantial evidence and coincidental information was intriguing, however. Stories from widely different sources tended to match pretty closely.

CanManEh
07-24-2013, 09:25 PM
I really wish someone could maybe will get this case some real supoport there needs to be actual media not another written article now adays like me i wanna see it i know its not going on nancy or anything but get a documentry .4 minute clip is all i can find on the internet but tons of books and books are great too but now adays its gotta be on tv to get the recognition.There needs to be a full documentry done on this case .

Motherof5
07-29-2013, 05:36 PM
Does anyone have photos of Pearch and Mileski? I've seen just about everyone we've considered as a possible suspect....but can't find photos of these two.

Richard
07-30-2013, 04:10 PM
Does anyone have photos of Pearch and Mileski? I've seen just about everyone we've considered as a possible suspect....but can't find photos of these two.

I have seen a photo of Pearch and also a "self portrait" drawing that he did of himself. They were published in the Washington Post Newspaper in April 1975, shortly after his shooting spree in Wheaton, Maryland.

Mileski was in the Maryland prison system from 1977 when he murdered his wife and son until his death some years ago. As such, he would have been photographed periodically. To my knowledge, his photo never appeared in any newspapers, and once he died, references to him in the Maryland Inmate Locator were removed.