View Full Version : "No Data" Incoming Texts Mystery *update - solved*
BondJamesBond
03-26-2009, 05:37 PM
I don't believe we've focused our attention on the following incoming texts that AT&T logs show no data for the originator.
Date DOW Time Type From To Call Duration (min) Time to Next Event (min) Located @ Orientation to Tower Tower Located @
6/7/08 SAT 8:40:32 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 1 Purlieu Place/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 5:57:57 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 34 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 32 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
In the entire record from 6/1 thru 7/17 these are the only instances of incoming calls/texts for which the AT&T log is blank regarding who originated the transmission to Casey's phone.
Of note...
0 of 4 instances occur when Casey's phone is near the Anthony's
2 of 4 instances are simultaneous (6/16 6:34:29PM)
3 of 4 instances occurred on 6/16
3 of 4 instances occurred during a critical period (5:57PM-6:34:29PM)
4 of 4 instances occur in the PM
4 of 4 instances are incoming texts.
Do we know anything about the events of 6/7 @ 8:40PM that might give us a clue about what generates or prompts these messages to be generated?
What could possibly generate 2 simultaneous incoming text messages...to the second??
*Update 3/27* ETA: With JWG's help these entries have been resolved. With help from Georgia PI, Momtective and others we've resolved some of the previously unidentified text originators too :blowkiss:
Hercule Poirot
03-26-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't believe we've focused our attention on the following incoming texts that AT&T logs show no data for the originator.
Date DOW Time Type From To Call Duration (min) Time to Next Event (min) Located @ Orientation to Tower Tower Located @
6/7/08 SAT 8:40:32 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 1 Purlieu Place/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 5:57:57 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 34 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 32 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
In the entire record from 6/1 thru 7/17 these are the only instances of incoming calls/texts for which the AT&T log is blank regarding who originated the transmission to Casey's phone.
Of note...
0 of 4 instances occur when Casey's phone is near the Anthony's
2 of 4 instances are simultaneous (6/16 6:34:29PM)
3 of 4 instances occurred on 6/16
3 of 4 instances occurred during a critical period (5:57PM-6:34:29PM)
4 of 4 instances occur in the PM
4 of 4 instances are incoming texts.
Do we know anything about the events of 6/7 @ 8:40PM that might give us a clue about what generates or prompts these messages to be generated?
What could possibly generate 2 simultaneous incoming text messages...to the second??
You often raise interesting questions.
I wish I had the knowledge to help more.
Do you (we) know what generally causes "no data" texts?
Is this just a case of the "send" button (or whatever) being pressed before composing a message? Would double pressing be rapid enough to appear simultaneous?
Perhaps a new, inexperienced sender, or new type of phone?
Sorry don't do text, don't own a cell phone. Rely mainly on annual carrier pigeon service.
zadari
03-26-2009, 05:49 PM
mabey a sattelite signal or restricted number ? sometimes telemarketers come up as restricted i dont know much about signals just throught id suggest .
PassTheMotrin
03-26-2009, 06:09 PM
I took a trivia challenge online once and it asked for my cell number; they sent the results via text to my cell.
So now sometimes I get these stupid trivia question texts and there is no indication of where they come from. (says no data)
Also, I sometimes send a text to my hubby's cell from the computer and when he gets it, it doesn't say where the message originated from.
I don't believe we've focused our attention on the following incoming texts that AT&T logs show no data for the originator.
Date DOW Time Type From To Call Duration (min) Time to Next Event (min) Located @ Orientation to Tower Tower Located @
6/7/08 SAT 8:40:32 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 1 Purlieu Place/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 5:57:57 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 34 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 0 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/16/08 MON 6:34:29 PM INCOMING TEXT No Data Casey Anthony 32 S-to-NW 4490 North Goldenrod Rd/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
In the entire record from 6/1 thru 7/17 these are the only instances of incoming calls/texts for which the AT&T log is blank regarding who originated the transmission to Casey's phone.
Of note...
0 of 4 instances occur when Casey's phone is near the Anthony's
2 of 4 instances are simultaneous (6/16 6:34:29PM)
3 of 4 instances occurred on 6/16
3 of 4 instances occurred during a critical period (5:57PM-6:34:29PM)
4 of 4 instances occur in the PM
4 of 4 instances are incoming texts.
Do we know anything about the events of 6/7 @ 8:40PM that might give us a clue about what generates or prompts these messages to be generated?
What could possibly generate 2 simultaneous incoming text messages...to the second??
Looks like we may have another problem with the initial scan that is still with us. :bang:
The original ATT records show, for the four events you listed above, the following originating numbers:
0
11
10
0
There is another similar incoming text on June 16 at 21:04:01 from #11, but our spreadsheet - due to the mis-scan - shows it as an outgoing call from KC to "no data". In fact, a quick scan shows several calls in the spreadsheet to "no data" that are instead incoming texts from one of the above three numbers that we mis-scanned. :banghead:
Traded one mystery for another. :doh:
Irish_Eyes
03-26-2009, 07:45 PM
Any chance these could be messages from her cell phone provider? Maybe that's why they show no data? I've gotten texts from my company before such as "Your bill is past due" or "your payment has posted" etc.
Not likely there would be 4 in one month, just throwing it out there.
Also, sometimes when I get picture messages sent to my phone they show up differently than text messages.
Hmmm...another thing...if my phone has been turned off for a period of time and I got several texts in that timeframe I don't actually "get" them until I power my phone back on again. So if she got several texts when her phone was off they might appear to have come in simultaneously.
john's mom
03-26-2009, 07:54 PM
Just throwing this out there.......could it be photos? My niece will get a cute shot of her dog or something, and just send the pic, with no text message.
Uhh, nevermind. I thought I read 'no text' and just looked again and saw 'no data'
JBean
03-26-2009, 07:58 PM
could they be those mass text/system messages that cell phone companies send out?
gogrannypop
03-26-2009, 08:05 PM
I took a trivia challenge online once and it asked for my cell number; they sent the results via text to my cell.
So now sometimes I get these stupid trivia question texts and there is no indication of where they come from. (says no data)
Also, I sometimes send a text to my hubby's cell from the computer and when he gets it, it doesn't say where the message originated from.
There a sites like http://www.ohdontforget.com/reminder that come in as no data. Maybe that is it.
BondJamesBond
03-26-2009, 08:34 PM
Great feedback everyone! :clap:
Lemme take a closer look @ JWG's observation.
IIRC, this was similar to the coding we attributed to an incoming system message that indicated there was a vmail waiting...or vmail had been cleared, etc.
Soooo...maybe this'll be an easy one to solve...
momtective
03-26-2009, 08:43 PM
Could they be from a blocked number...*67? Is that even possible when texting?
BondJamesBond
03-26-2009, 09:11 PM
OK...the 6/7 instance is definitely a 'vmail/msg cleared' system message.
Ricardo called, Casey let it roll to vmail. The message was ~1min long.
Casey checked her vmail and ~1min later (listening time) the incoming "0" is received.
Checking the others now...
The remaining 3...on the 16th...are very interesting...off to Georgia PI's ping maps one more time so I can type this up...
MnkeyBznes
03-26-2009, 10:09 PM
I don't think you can do it anymore but you used to be able to go to the cingular web site and send a text and input whatever number you wanted (or no number at all) as the sender. Lots of people did this so they weren't charged for the outgoing text. I don't know if this is what happened just wanted to mention the possibility.
BondJamesBond
03-26-2009, 10:32 PM
I don't think you can do it anymore but you used to be able to go to the cingular web site and send a text and input whatever number you wanted (or no number at all) as the sender. Lots of people did this so they weren't charged for the outgoing text. I don't know if this is what happened just wanted to mention the possibility.
Thanks, MB. I was just a little miffed @ Cingular when they discontinued that little gem of a feature too :D
After looking @ this closer I think we've just about - but not entirely - nailed it down. I'm trying to type up the most interesting part (to me anyway :bang:...maybe not so much to anyone else :rolleyes: )
There are also some similar outbound texts which I've asked JWG to check the orig. AT&T documents on if he'd be so kind [a goading "J-W-G, J-W-G..." chant appropriate here] :dance:
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
Alright...my ISP has chosen to get flaky on me this evening....and while the result of what started as diving into 'no data' transmissions really belongs on the 6/16 Ping thread, it won't make it there tonight because 2 screen refreshes is 1 too many tonight :banghead:
So I'll hafta come back and deal w/ the rest of the 'outbound' "no data" entries later...
If I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing....
On the afternoon of 6/16, based on the tower handoffs of the pings and drive time, Casey left the area of G&C's/Lee's ~4:10PM and arrived in the area north of Amscot ~4:33PM. Casey had placed her last call in the 2nd - albeit mini - "flurry" of calls that day to Cindy's cell phone about the time she passed by Amscot. Then, there was a period of 28mins with no activity on Casey's cell phone. We don't know what Casey was doing during this time frame, but, based on her next cell ping it appears she stayed somewhere around this area. Note that the following recognizable landmarks are located within the driving distance of the bookend pings that begin & end this 28min period.:
Tony's apt.
Gentiva
Lexus
Amscot
Based on both of these bookend pings being from the same tower on the southern end of these landmarks, IMHO, it seems most likely Casey was nearer Amscot, one of the stores in this area, or Gentiva. Note, FWIW, that Casey's m.o. had been to drop Caylee @ Gentiva around Cindy's quiting time per several statements from Gentiva employees and George.
This first period of cell inactivity ended @ 4:53PM when Casey received a Facebook alert which pinged in the area described above.
After this Facebook alert was received there was a 64 minute period of inactivity that ended @ 5:57PM pinging at the location most likely to be near Tony's apartment with a system message that indicated either a voicemail or text message was waiting. Despite receipt this system message, Casey waited another 34 mins before initiating the 3rd "flurry" of calls that day to Cindy @ 6:31PM. Up to this point, all of Casey's calls to Cindy had been attempts to get Cindy to answer the phone based on their duration being <10seconds. However, two calls to Jesse had durations of ~1minute...left vmail messages perhaps.
At 6:33PM Casey appeared to notice the system message indicating a voicemail or text was waiting and dialed her voicemailbox number. Casey had hoped this was a message from Cindy, etc, but, soon discovered it wasn't. Her call to voicemail lasted just under a minute and may have included checking Cindy's vmail receipt of messages Casey had left (an option from the vmail menu) and the text message that resulted from the Facebook alert...all of these can be done from the same call (I simulated myself this evening and took just over 30seconds to complete all three tasks). This series of actions explains the system message(s) @ 6:34PM which arrived within seconds of the completion of the call Casey placed to her voicemailbox - formerly identified as 'no data' entries above..
After this disappointment, there was another 32 minute period of cell inactivity, until the 4th and final not-quite-a-"flurry" of calls began @ 7:06PM which sputtered and ended @ 7:21PM with calls to Amy. All of these activities pinged at a location most likely to be nearest to Tony's apartment.
Then...no cell activity...none... for the 33 mins...before Casey & Tony arrived @ Blockbuster IIRC ~7:54PM. Note that Blockbuster is less than 0.5 miles from Tony's apartment...so, some time must be allowed for Casey to have met up with Tony and for the pair to get to Blockbuster @ ~7:54PM.
IIRC, Cindy stated in her interview w/ the FBI that Casey called the evening of the 16th to explain that she & Caylee would not be home that evening. It appears to me that the 7:06PM call to G&C's home, which lasted just under 1.5 minutes, serves as the best candidate for this call. This would also be in agreement with the time needed for Casey to meet up with Tony and travel to Blockbuster.
Based on the above, it appears to me that, after attempting to repeat a drop of Caylee with Cindy @ Gentiva ~5PM 6/16, an upset Casey engaged in a change of plans in which she turned her phone off (or battery died) @ ~5PM just after the un-noticed receipt of the Facebook Alert @ 4:53PM, and turned her phone back on (or noticed & charger plugged in) @ 5:57PM which resulted in the system message being re-sent to her phone indicating she had a waiting message (only explanation for this pattern I can think of). By 6:34PM Casey realized Cindy was not going to respond and Casey took the actions that ultimately cost Caylee her life. As noted before, medical death may not have occurred immediately, hence, the time of death can't be specified, however, the actions that resulted in Caylee's death appear to have been taken between 6:34PM and 7:06PM :(
Hercule Poirot
03-27-2009, 12:59 AM
I like your work Mr Bond.
Especially since it fits the time-line I am working on.
Where physically precisely is your best estimation for KC and her car in that critical time period.(6:34 - 7:06)
I guess that is when she placed Caylee in the trunk?
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 01:09 AM
I like your work Mr Bond.
Especially since it fits the time-line I am working on.
Where physically precisely is your best estimation for KC and her car in that critical time period.(6:34 - 7:06)
I guess that is when she placed Caylee in the trunk?
Kinda hard to find ;), but, its in there, "All of these activities pinged at a location most likely to be nearest to Tony's apartment." IOW...prolly in the parking lot of Sutton Place Apt.
That was alot of words just to back up my earlier ~7:20PM theory by less than an hour, wasn't it? :bang:
Hercule Poirot
03-27-2009, 01:18 AM
Kinda hard to find ;), but, its in there, "All of these activities pinged at a location most likely to be nearest to Tony's apartment." IOW...prolly in the parking lot of Sutton Place Apt.
That was alot of words just to back up my earlier ~7:20PM theory by less than an hour, wasn't it? :bang:
Thanks I am happy with all that.
Don't you think that excludes 19th as day body was dumped/rebagged? It would have to have been after 7:00pm on 19th and probably well after?
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 02:27 AM
Thanks I am happy with all that.
Don't you think that excludes 19th as day body was dumped/rebagged? It would have to have been after 7:00pm on 19th and probably well after?
Actually, as an example, if we used 6:45PM as t.o.d. and 7:20PM into the trunk that yields 5PM 6/19 for stopping the ADD clock (rebag/disposal).
As I tried to indicate...t.o.d medically could have been sometime later depending on the manner of death :(. Really not changing the bag/dispose from earlier scenarios all that much...just backing things up 30-50mins.
Kinda veering OT here :bang:, but, if I hadn't already pointed out on the 6/19 Ping thread, there is a similar situation to 6/16 where it appears Casey may have powered down her phone:
6/19/08 THU 4:54:11 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Sean "Sean Hickey" Hickey 51 NE-to-S 1 Purlieu Place/ Winter Park/ FL/ 32792
6/19/08 THU 5:45:39 PM INCOMING TEXT Voicemail/Message Waiting Casey Anthony 196 NW-to-NE 12506 Lake Underhill Rd/ Orlando/ FL/ 32825
There is NOTHING to prompt the 5:45PM system message. The only thing I can come up with is Casey powered off her phone sometime after 4:54PM 6/19, then, powered back up @ 5:45PM and promptly received the system message that she had a new message in queue...either one previously unanswered (unlikely since her last text was an outgoing text after all others had been received - still possible) or one received while the phone was powered down (more likely IMHO).
Hope that helps.
Hercule Poirot
03-27-2009, 02:36 AM
Sorry about the OT
But posting one more time to say thanks.
Still room for conjecture, but things a little clearer.
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 09:28 AM
Sorry about the OT
But posting one more time to say thanks.
Still room for conjecture, but things a little clearer.
Hehehe...:redface:...I'm the one goin' OT...but, since we're off the paved road...
Yes - plenty of room to maneuver different scenarios still. Also plenty of options on what activities Casey could have been engaged in between 5PM-7:06PM owing to the many stores in the area. For example, I don't recall seeing any statement about Casey & Tony eating Monday, 6/16PM...and have often thought if Casey could produce a receipt (or witness) from a fast food joint/drive-thru (e.g. McDonalds opposite Amscot) 6/16PM showing she purchased 2 meals...or a Happy Meal...she would have at least some argument in court to make about being concerned about Caylee's welfare 6/16PM - instead of being hellbent on murdering her. :( Alternatively, as we discussed on the 6/16 Ping thread, there is a CVS Pharmacy on the corner of Goldenrod & Colonial...directly across from Amscot. :mad:
And you're most welcome. I'm simply dropping grains of sand in the oyster shells 'round here. :gift: You really sharp WS's will come behind me and tweak this into shape...or...find the significant flaws and generate something from the ashes...it's all good :thumb:
I'll do my OT penance by weaving back in the outbound 'no data' results if/when JWG has a chance to look at the raw AT&T docs again.
Gma Kat
03-27-2009, 03:51 PM
I took a trivia challenge online once and it asked for my cell number; they sent the results via text to my cell.
So now sometimes I get these stupid trivia question texts and there is no indication of where they come from. (says no data)
Also, I sometimes send a text to my hubby's cell from the computer and when he gets it, it doesn't say where the message originated from.
So I'm not the only one.......:dance:
Could KC have been sending herself messages from another phone or computer to give the impression that "Zanny" was trying to contact her or return her calls? You always do such great work BJB, I wish I had the intellegence and resources to help you. This was my best shot.
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 04:07 PM
OK...I just updated the thread title to reflect that...
1) With JWG digging into the details the 'no data' texts have been resolved (system messages that were 'lost in translation' from earlier OCR scans) :bud:
2) With Georgia PI, Momtective and others helping we have better resolution on some here-to-fore unidentified originators of several text messages (e.g. Yahoo, etc.) :applause:
Ya gotta love WS. Thanks to everyone for pitching in!! :blowkiss:
Devon
03-27-2009, 07:42 PM
Alright...my ISP has chosen to get flaky on me this evening....and while the result of what started as diving into 'no data' transmissions really belongs on the 6/16 Ping thread, it won't make it there tonight because 2 screen refreshes is 1 too many tonight :banghead:
So I'll hafta come back and deal w/ the rest of the 'outbound' "no data" entries later...
If I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing....
On the afternoon of 6/16, based on the tower handoffs of the pings and drive time, Casey left the area of G&C's/Lee's ~4:10PM and arrived in the area north of Amscot ~4:33PM. Casey had placed her last call in the 2nd - albeit mini - "flurry" of calls that day to Cindy's cell phone about the time she passed by Amscot. Then, there was a period of 28mins with no activity on Casey's cell phone. We don't know what Casey was doing during this time frame, but, based on her next cell ping it appears she stayed somewhere around this area. Note that the following recognizable landmarks are located within the driving distance of the bookend pings that begin & end this 28min period.:
Tony's apt.
Gentiva
Lexus
Amscot
Based on both of these bookend pings being from the same tower on the southern end of these landmarks, IMHO, it seems most likely Casey was nearer Amscot, one of the stores in this area, or Gentiva. Note, FWIW, that Casey's m.o. had been to drop Caylee @ Gentiva around Cindy's quiting time per several statements from Gentiva employees and George.
This first period of cell inactivity ended @ 4:53PM when Casey received a Facebook alert which pinged in the area described above.
After this Facebook alert was received there was a 64 minute period of inactivity that ended @ 5:57PM pinging at the location most likely to be near Tony's apartment with a system message that indicated either a voicemail or text message was waiting. Despite receipt this system message, Casey waited another 34 mins before initiating the 3rd "flurry" of calls that day to Cindy @ 6:31PM. Up to this point, all of Casey's calls to Cindy had been attempts to get Cindy to answer the phone based on their duration being <10seconds. However, two calls to Jesse had durations of ~1minute...left vmail messages perhaps.
At 6:33PM Casey appeared to notice the system message indicating a voicemail or text was waiting and dialed her voicemailbox number. Casey had hoped this was a message from Cindy, etc, but, soon discovered it wasn't. Her call to voicemail lasted just under a minute and may have included checking Cindy's vmail receipt of messages Casey had left (an option from the vmail menu) and the text message that resulted from the Facebook alert...all of these can be done from the same call (I simulated myself this evening and took just over 30seconds to complete all three tasks). This series of actions explains the system message(s) @ 6:34PM which arrived within seconds of the completion of the call Casey placed to her voicemailbox - formerly identified as 'no data' entries above..
After this disappointment, there was another 32 minute period of cell inactivity, until the 4th and final not-quite-a-"flurry" of calls began @ 7:06PM which sputtered and ended @ 7:21PM with calls to Amy. All of these activities pinged at a location most likely to be nearest to Tony's apartment.
Then...no cell activity...none... for the 33 mins...before Casey & Tony arrived @ Blockbuster IIRC ~7:54PM. Note that Blockbuster is less than 0.5 miles from Tony's apartment...so, some time must be allowed for Casey to have met up with Tony and for the pair to get to Blockbuster @ ~7:54PM.
IIRC, Cindy stated in her interview w/ the FBI that Casey called the evening of the 16th to explain that she & Caylee would not be home that evening. It appears to me that the 7:06PM call to G&C's home, which lasted just under 1.5 minutes, serves as the best candidate for this call. This would also be in agreement with the time needed for Casey to meet up with Tony and travel to Blockbuster.
Based on the above, it appears to me that, after attempting to repeat a drop of Caylee with Cindy @ Gentiva ~5PM 6/16, an upset Casey engaged in a change of plans in which she turned her phone off (or battery died) @ ~5PM just after the un-noticed receipt of the Facebook Alert @ 4:53PM, and turned her phone back on (or noticed & charger plugged in) @ 5:57PM which resulted in the system message being re-sent to her phone indicating she had a waiting message (only explanation for this pattern I can think of). By 6:34PM Casey realized Cindy was not going to respond and Casey took the actions that ultimately cost Caylee her life. As noted before, medical death may not have occurred immediately, hence, the time of death can't be specified, however, the actions that resulted in Caylee's death appear to have been taken between 6:34PM and 7:06PM :(
Some of the problems I have with this scenario are:
1) Is it likely that KC would murder Caylee in broad daylight and in public - if so where did she go? Surely it wouldn't have occurred anywhere along the main routes between the A's house and TL's apartment during this time period, when I presume traffic would have been fairly busy with workers going home etc. Do the phone pings support KC going off the beaten track at all?
2) If Caylee was alive when KC left the A's house around 4.10pm, at which point you appear to believe she hadn't yet decided that she needed to kill her, why didn't she have any shoes on?
3) If KC killed Caylee in the car and then placed her in the trunk, why would she leave Caylee's favourite doll in full view? If she performed this murder as cold-bloodedly as your scenario would imply, I would think she'd have the presence of mind to hide that particular 'red flag' out of sight!
Hercule Poirot
03-27-2009, 10:34 PM
Since the thread is now oficially OT:
What I put together out of all the bits is that KC gagged and put (threw) Caylee in the trunk 6:34 -7:06pm. I can only go by aerial shots, but looks like some quiet parking spots near AL appt?
I think Caylee was still alive, KC at least thought she was alive when she was in Video busters?
The shoe issue keeps being brought up. Perhaps I come from slightly different culture, but kids not wearing shoes is common, especially in the car. Perhaps there was a lose pair of Caylee shoes in the car that KC could easily have thrown away at any time. If we want to be conspiratorial, could even surmise that CA found Caylee's shoes in the car or trunk and kept quiet about it?
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Some of the problems I have with this scenario are:
Just painting one picture here that fits the evidence...certainly not the only picture...
1) Is it likely that KC would murder Caylee in broad daylight and in public - if so where did she go? Surely it wouldn't have occurred anywhere along the main routes between the A's house and TL's apartment during this time period, when I presume traffic would have been fairly busy with workers going home etc. Do the phone pings support KC going off the beaten track at all?
I'm a terrible one to ask how likely Casey is to do anything. I plowed a ridiculous amount of time into pouring over every detail of the case looking for a disposal site before December 11...a site that would fit MY criteria for a likely location. Only to find Casey went less than 0.5 mile from G&C's...20ft from the shoulder of the road. So, what I think Casey would likely do has proven to be a poor measuring stick. :bang: What I have tried to do is paint a picture of the events we can create with the available objective evidence...and inject some possible explanations.
The phone pings show Casey essentially went directly from the area of G&C/Lee's to the area of Amscot/Gentiva, then, to Tony's apartment. This little scene played out almost exactly the same on 6/9 as it did on 6/16...including the flurry of calls. IMHO, we may learn Casey wanted to drop Caylee w/ Cindy 6/9PM so Casey could go deal with the traffic citations unencumbered w/ Caylee the morning of 6/10. Caylee was in a habit of dropping Caylee @ Gentiva @ the end of Cindy's day as has been stated by Gentiva employees & George. IMHO, it appears Casey was possibly setting things up to do it again 6/16 to enable Tony-time.
The pings can't tell us exactly what streets Casey traveled. Yes - there are some side-streets that would provide adequate privacy along the way, IMHO. An outta the way parking space @ Tony's apt complex would've worked too. Just to use one example...individual events don't necessarily look evil to the casual observer. Giving a child OTC medications wouldn't look nefarious to the casual observer, IMHO. Even laying a child down (out of view) in a back seat to do something that might appear to be changing a diaper wouldn't draw too much suspicion. Putting a blanketed object in the trunk would be just that...a wad of blankets - laundry maybe? Right? Sure. Only to a person that watched intently from the time Casey & Caylee parked until Casey left the car without Caylee (in this example) - start to finish - would red flags go up. Spread the whole scene out over two locations and IMHO you could do it 3 times a week and no one would take note.
2) If Caylee was alive when KC left the A's house around 4.10pm, at which point you appear to believe she hadn't yet decided that she needed to kill her, why didn't she have any shoes on?
Since Casey was ultimately capable of caring so little for Caylee that she murdered her...I'm not too surprised that Casey didn't slip Caylee's shoes on after her nap. Casey's focus 6/16PM was on her evening plans...not Caylee's comfort or well-being. IOW...IMHO, shoes or no shoes isn't an indication of what Casey planned to do - rather an indication of Casey's priorities. Recall that Casey had a backpack w/ wipes, pull-ups, a comb, and a toothbrush, etc. in it too.
3) If KC killed Caylee in the car and then placed her in the trunk, why would she leave Caylee's favourite doll in full view? If she performed this murder as cold-bloodedly as your scenario would imply, I would think she'd have the presence of mind to hide that particular 'red flag' out of sight!
I'm afraid you lost me. I don't think I originally suggested the details of how Casey carried out the crime, merely the timeframe in which she did based on some observations about her phone activity.
My opinion on the doll? Well...IMHO Casey didn't have the presence of mind to do so many of the things you and I might do if we were inclined to 'get away with murder'. The doll in view doesn't give me any more pause than a myriad of the other things Casey failed to do. Casey appears to me to live 10-minutes-@-a-time, as was suggested by LP. Casey's trade was lying her way out of situations. Tidying up details to prevent the need to lie...well...that would just be "a waste - a huge waste".
momtective
03-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Not exactly sure why but I thought I'd throw this back out here again. Cindy's FBI interview compared to Casey's cell record. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75577. There might be a little in site there.
BondJamesBond
03-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Not exactly sure why but I thought I'd throw this back out here again. Cindy's FBI interview compared to Casey's cell record. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75577. There might be a little in site there.
IIRC, this is the interview in which Cindy indicated Casey called the evening of 6/16 to state she and Caylee wouldn't be coming home that night. Per above, I'm speculating this was the call Casey placed @ 7:06PM that lasted under 2mins.
One of the reasons for my adjusting my opinion of a post-7:20PM event is that a Casey-in-need-of-Caylee-sitter-to-enable-Tony-time seemed to be actively trying to reach Cindy in-person (not satisfied with leaving a single vmail and waiting, rather employing the 'flurry' method) as late as ~6:30PM. If Casey FINALLY reached Cindy for one last conversation and per Cindy it was to tell her something different...something like..."Yeh - I WAS trying to reach you this afternoon, but, now...forget about it - problem already solved"...well...then the circumstances had changed before the 7:06PM call.
Detailed on one of the general ping threads that the 7:06PM call marked the turning point for Casey's communications w/ Cindy. After that call, Casey became evermore elusive. IMHO, that transition is a key indication...and...if Cindy's account of the context of that conversation given in the FBI interview is accurate...it tells us the deed had been done already...OR...Casey was convinced her 'Plan B' was going to be effective (some means of temporarily stowing Caylee).
momtective
03-27-2009, 11:38 PM
Two dates stand out to me, June 18 and June 24
Flurry of calls from KC to A family on both dates.
Maybe the 18th is when KC discovered that Caylee was no longer alive in the trunk.
June 24th KC makes 7 calls to CA...remember CA said KC was out of town. Zani supposedly still in the hospital...but remember the 24th is the day GA reported the gas cans missing and is also the same day GA confronted KC about the gas cans and approached the car trunk. This is the only flurry of calls from KC other than on the 16th.
Obviously GA and CA knew KC was not in Tampa...GA had just seen her earlier in the day, right? I'm thinking this is the day KC disposed of Caylee's little body.
BondJamesBond
03-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Two dates stand out to me, June 18 and June 24
Flurry of calls from KC to A family on both dates.
Maybe the 18th is when KC discovered that Caylee was no longer alive in the trunk.
June 24th KC makes 7 calls to CA...remember CA said KC was out of town. Zani supposedly still in the hospital...but remember the 24th is the day GA reported the gas cans missing and is also the same day GA confronted KC about the gas cans and approached the car trunk. This is the only flurry of calls from KC other than on the 16th.
Obviously GA and CA knew KC was not in Tampa...GA had just seen her earlier in the day, right? I'm thinking this is the day KC disposed of Caylee's little body.
1) Dontcha love how those 'flurries' almost always start w/ a call to Lexus.
6/9 flurry: Starts w/ Cindy
6/16 flurry1: Starts w/ Lexus
6/18 flurry: Starts w/ Lexus
6/24 flurry: Starts w/ Lexus
2) Consider the 6/18 flurry may have had something to do w/ establishing G&C's afternoon/evening plans since Casey did one of her back-into-the-garage maneuvers and pinged there ~2:45PM that afternoon. Shovel day.
3) Consider the 6/24 flurry occurred as Casey sped away from the here's-your-effin'-gas-cans encounter w/ George @ the house.
ETA: I know how we got here, but, we should prolly be doin' this on the "cells & pings" thread...
Woe.be.gone
03-28-2009, 12:18 AM
CA said KC was out of town on the 24th tending to the hospitalized nanny but didn't CA supposedly tell KC that George reported the stolen gas cans to LE which is what prompted KC to come return them? CA thought KC rushed back from Tampa, leaving Caylee there, to return gas cans?
Does that mean that CA did not mention to GA that KC said she was in Tampa with Caylee? When he saw KC on the 24th, you'd think he would be really surprised because she was supposed to be in Tampa - no?
Where do you think KC learned how to lie? It's clear to me. Just say anything you want and assume that every one else is stupid. The lies sure make things confusing though.
How many lies can be tolerated before it is considered obstruction I wonder. Sorry, tangent. NO DATA, ONLY LIES!
BondJamesBond
03-28-2009, 11:26 AM
CA said KC was out of town on the 24th tending to the hospitalized nanny but didn't CA supposedly tell KC that George reported the stolen gas cans to LE which is what prompted KC to come return them? CA thought KC rushed back from Tampa, leaving Caylee there, to return gas cans?
Does that mean that CA did not mention to GA that KC said she was in Tampa with Caylee? When he saw KC on the 24th, you'd think he would be really surprised because she was supposed to be in Tampa - no?
Where do you think KC learned how to lie? It's clear to me. Just say anything you want and assume that every one else is stupid. The lies sure make things confusing though.
How many lies can be tolerated before it is considered obstruction I wonder. Sorry, tangent. NO DATA, ONLY LIES!
Hey, Woe.
IIRC, Casey's story evolved into having to come get insurance papers for ZFG...or something similar...as her reason for having to be in Orlando 6/24.
I'm gonna request the thread be closed. We've solved the 'no data' mystery...and now I'm just contributing to the delinquency of (yet another) thread :bang:
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