The Church?

[frankieiiiieee]

I hate starting threads lol but since this is a big part of the investigation I figured we could use a place to discuss :) What is the connection and why is LE so convinced that it is so significant?:waitasec:

[LinasK]

I hate starting threads lol but since this is a big part of the investigation I figured we could use a place to discuss :) What is the connection and why is LE so convinced that it is so significant?:waitasec:I think she was attacked/murdered/or packaged into the suitcase there. Gloves were found under the church...

[chicagofa13]

Fred W, a member of the church says the luggage was to be part of a rummage sale and was stolen the day Sandra went missing.

(IIRC other posters here say Connie L has since said it was hers (?) to be donated to the rummage sale. I don't have a link for that, so maybe someone else can help me out!!)

http://www.kcra.com/news/19121818/detail.html

Williams said that the mysterious black suitcase Cantu was found in was reported stolen by another congregation member the same day Cantu disappeared.

"That suitcase was to go to the church for a rummage sale with some stuff in it and the person put it somewhere, either in the back of a car somewhere. But anyway, when she came back out the suitcase was gone," Williams said.

[frankieiiiieee]

Liansk ITA I think she was killed in that church...it's quiet and no one is there during the week! It's horribly sad too /:

[frankieiiiieee]

Fred W, a member of the church says the luggage was to be part of a rummage sale and was stolen the day Sandra went missing. IIRC other posters here say Connie L has since said it was hers (?).

http://www.kcra.com/news/19121818/detail.html

Williams said that the mysterious black suitcase Cantu was found in was reported stolen by another congregation member the same day Cantu disappeared.

"That suitcase was to go to the church for a rummage sale with some stuff in it and the person put it somewhere, either in the back of a car somewhere. But anyway, when she came back out the suitcase was gone," Williams said.

Has it been clarified if it was stolen the same day as the rummage sale or were the items in a room getting ready to be sold at a later date? If it was that day then they may be able to figure out all the people that were at the sale at the time it was stolen.

[Jersey*Girl]

I'm not sure if anyone knows...but...when I was a kid, my church used to have rummage sales every season. We would use that money to purchase food & drinks for missions that we would run for the poor & needy. Does anyone happen to know if this church runs missions? Do they serve meals for the less fortunate or homeless? Do they sometimes supply shelter? What is their walk-in ratio compared to their member sign-in for church services? If any of this could be considered, I'd wonder if anyone noticed the same face more than once? If so, how would this person be classified? Just wonderin'...

[chicagofa13]

Has it been clarified if it was stolen the same day as the rummage sale or were the items in a room getting ready to be sold at a later date? If it was that day then they may be able to figure out all the people that were at the sale at the time it was stolen.

I don't have any idea. Unfortunately I couldn't get through all the day's posts and missed a lot of that discussion.

I don't want to make this about the luggage since there is a thread for luggage, but I think it may be the reason they tie the crime back to the church. Which is what this thread is about, lol, do I make any sense!!??

[passionflower]

IIRC, Sgt. said no confirmation on luggage stolen and no report.....all hear say by those people.

[chicagofa13]

IIRC, Sgt. said no confirmation on luggage stolen and no report.....all hear say by those people.

Correct. And when asked if they discussed the missing/stolen luggage in their interviews, he said "no comment".

[frankieiiiieee]

So why are they looking under the crawl space...i thought of gacy *shudders* of course that would be my first thought. I thought maybe some insulation or wood was with the remains and that's how the church was connected? maybe carpet from the church or something?

[passionflower]

So why are they looking under the crawl space...i thought of gacy *shudders* of course that would be my first thought. I thought maybe some insulation or wood was with the remains and that's how the church was connected? maybe carpet from the church or something?

Since the pond was just filled last week (news thread on WS) around the
1st and she was found on the 7th
and Sandra was kidnapped March 28.........
she had to be kept (if alive) or stored (if deceased) some where.
I'm wondering under church (gloves) deceased????

[frankieiiiieee]

awwww poor baby /: that makes me so sad. It boggles my mind how people can be so cruel.

[SeekingJana]

So why are they looking under the crawl space...i thought of gacy *shudders* of course that would be my first thought. I thought maybe some insulation or wood was with the remains and that's how the church was connected? maybe carpet from the church or something?

The FBI has classified Sandra's murder as having been committed by a " disorganized killer". Do we know if Gacy's profile was that of a disorganized killer? I honestly don't know...
I am thinking they may be onto a pedophillic serial spree killer.. it would explain the disorganization aspect.
Anyone who would either keep a live child or hide a decomposing body for a period of days has probably abducted/ killed before. First time non-familial killers with disorganization leave the body where the person died, or dump it immediately. (If the killer is a family member, the killer would be more likely to want to keep the body close by.)

BTW, I think the killer had at least one accomplice/ confidante'.

[Jersey*Girl]

Gosh, I'm really hoping somebody reads here that would be familiar with this chirch. Are there any migrant workers that frequent this church? Any in which the pastor could have befriended, or adversely become skeptical of? Somebody he took extra time to "help"?

[frankieiiiieee]

The FBI has classified Sandra's murder as having been committed by a " disorganized killer". Do we know if Gacy's profile was that of a disorganized killer? I honestly don't know...
I am thinking they may be onto a pedophillic serial spree killer.. it would explain the disorganization aspect.
Anyone who would either keep a live child or hide a decomposing body for a period of days has probably abducted/ killed before. First time non-familial killers with disorganization leave the body where the person died, or dump it immediately. (If the killer is a family member, the killer would be more likely to want to keep the body close by.)

BTW, I think the killer had at least one accomplice/ confidante'.

To tell u the truth im not 100 % sure but I believe Gacy was considered an "organized" killer, as he had many victims, he was a homosexual man whom raped and killed young men. He hid behind a clown mask (this is where that whole creepy killer clown thing started!) and was a well liked person in the community. He owned a construction business and was very successful. He was a mass serial killer and buried the bodies under the crawl space in his home. Has nothing to do with the case but the crawl space. That's what made me think there could be other victims and maybe why there was speculation on weather or not this is the work of a serial killer. Idk but had to share! sorry off topic guys!:crazy:

[Kat]

Gosh, I'm really hoping somebody reads here that would be familiar with this chirch. Are there any migrant workers that frequent this church? Any in which the pastor could have befriended, or adversely become skeptical of? Somebody he took extra time to "help"?

This is what I was thinking too Jersey. I can only relate to being the granddaughter of a Preacher and that he would bring "lost souls" into his home from time to time. The lowest of the low and the broken to give them a change, to sponser them so to speak.

Also, my Grandparents would have small get togethers of bible studies in their own livingroom even though my Grandfather by the time I was born had his own congregation.

So it is not out of the realm of possibility that LE is not looking at the Pastor's home, and his church because they suspect him, but they might suspect someone he is associated with at this time or in the recent past?

Just some thoughts.

[frankieiiiieee]

Gosh, I'm really hoping somebody reads here that would be familiar with this chirch. Are there any migrant workers that frequent this church? Any in which the pastor could have befriended, or adversely become skeptical of? Somebody he took extra time to "help"?

I know for real i wanna send in a spy to get one of those bulletins!

[chicagofa13]

The FBI has classified Sandra's murder as having been committed by a " disorganized killer". Do we know if Gacy's profile was that of a disorganized killer? I honestly don't know...
I am thinking they may be onto a pedophillic serial spree killer.. it would explain the disorganization aspect.
Anyone who would either keep a live child or hide a decomposing body for a period of days has probably abducted/ killed before. First time non-familial killers with disorganization leave the body where the person died, or dump it immediately. (If the killer is a family member, the killer would be more likely to want to keep the body close by.)

BTW, I think the killer had at least one accomplice/ confidante'.

Oh I think Gacy was a highly-organized intelligent killer. He got away with murder, literally, for a very long time. IMO the crawl space is a logical place to search for hidden items, not necessarily as a burial or location to hide a body.

I just have a feeling she was not left anywhere for long, but put in the suitcase and taken away.

I also believe it is someone in the mhp or the church, not a stranger or migrant worker, but someone Sandra knew or knew of.

[bp531]

I just noticed that the church website has been changed. It seems they have disabled alot of it. No more comments, which is good IMO. It was getting pretty ugly.

[ilovemew]

Did they bring cadaver dogs into the church to sniff around?

[ilovemew]

IIRC, Sgt. said no confirmation on luggage stolen and no report.....all hear say by those people.

I was thinking that if it was stolen from the church they probably wouldn't have reported it stolen to police. Just handled it within the church.

[SeekingJana]

Oh I think Gacy was a highly-organized intelligent killer. He got away with murder, literally, for a very long time. IMO the crawl space is a logical place to search for hidden items, not necessarily as a burial or location to hide a body.

I just have a feeling she was not left anywhere for long, but put in the suitcase and taken away.

I also believe it is someone in the mhp or the church, not a stranger or migrant worker, but someone Sandra knew or knew of.

I thought Gacy was probably classified as organized also, but have never read a profiler's report on him. I'm very aware of his crimes and the burying, the wanting to be close to his victims. He was totally schizo and his behavior in prison was also incredibly bizarre.

The hiding behind a mask of a clown--- metaphorically, being a " kind man who likes children".
Just thinkin' about the men who do evil while hiding behind different types of " masks".

I agree with what you've said about Sandra's killer being someone she knew and trusted.

[scandi]

I think she was attacked/murdered/or packaged into the suitcase there. Gloves were found under the church...

Maybe even taken into the church, she died there, stored in the crawl space while someone or he went to pick up the suitcase Mrs CL said she had sitting out by her driveway, back to the shed, took out contents of suitcase, under the hint of darkness carried her into the shed, redressed her if needed, put on her shoes and shoved her in the bag. I still have not put the sequence together.

The FBI has classified Sandra's murder as having been committed by a " disorganized killer". Do we know if Gacy's profile was that of a disorganized killer? I honestly don't know...
I am thinking they may be onto a pedophillic serial spree killer.. it would explain the disorganization aspect.
Anyone who would either keep a live child or hide a decomposing body for a period of days has probably abducted/ killed before. First time non-familial killers with disorganization leave the body where the person died, or dump it immediately. (If the killer is a family member, the killer would be more likely to want to keep the body close by.)

BTW, I think the killer had at least one accomplice/ confidante'.

Thanks, as I hadn't heard LE have classified her killer as 'disorganized.



Oh I think Gacy was a highly-organized intelligent killer. He got away with murder, literally, for a very long time. IMO the crawl space is a logical place to search for hidden items, not necessarily as a burial or location to hide a body.

I just have a feeling she was not left anywhere for long, but put in the suitcase and taken away.

I also believe it is someone in the mhp or the church, not a stranger or migrant worker, but someone Sandra knew or knew of.


ITA Chicago, I think the bag was in the pond before the call went out she was missing.

I don't think this killer cared if she was thrown into muddy sludge with not much water in it. Even if the pond wasn't full there would be some water in it. I seem to think he wanted her found sooner than later as he probably thought he had left no evidence.

Did they bring cadaver dogs into the church to sniff around?

Hi again Ilovemew, I thought of the same thing tonight and don't think there was enough time {1 1/2 - 2 hours} for her body to develop an alertable death scent. Clues might have told them this and so they didn't call in cadaver dogs. And these investigators know the statistics, an abducted child is most usually dead within 3 hours acc to Marc Klaas.

[ilovemew]

Hi again Ilovemew, I thought of the same thing tonight and don't think there was enough time {1 1/2 - 2 hours} for her body to develop an alertable death scent. Clues might have told them this and so they didn't call in cadaver dogs. And these investigators know the statistics, an abducted child is most usually dead within 3 hours acc to Marc Klaas.

I thought I had read here somewhere that she had to have been "stored" for a few days because the irrigation pond would not have been filled yet.
I was thinking she was put in the crawl space for awhile.
Poor baby girl this su**s to type!!! :mad: :furious:

[Nora Charles]

According to SGT S. in presser the pond had been filled for at least two weeks.

I thought I had read here somewhere that she had to have been "stored" for a few days because the irrigation pond would not have been filled yet.
I was thinking she was put in the crawl space for awhile.
Poor baby girl this su**s to type!!! :mad: :furious:

[ThoughtFox]

I don't know - While this killer may have premeditated somewhat, the whole suitcase deal makes me think it was a spur of the moment decision. That's not to say the killer might not have a history of crime, but that he just took an opportunity when the child was out alone and no one was around.

Anyway - my 2 cents.

Here are some facts about the Church:

ABC News: Searching for Sandra's Killer (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7287008&page=1)

Police and FBI agents began working at the church, located about 500 feet from Sandra's home, around 2 p.m. on Tuesday and continued into the evening, Sheneman said.

ABC's KGO-TV in San Francisco reported that a team of FBI agents removed items from inside the church and from the pastor's home which is located in the same mobile home park where Sandra lived. FBI agents were also seen searching a crawl space under the church.

The pastor's wife, Connie Lawless, told KGO that they are cooperating with police. She confirmed that investigators removed some items from their home. "They took the usual stuff -- phone, computers, things of that nature. We were very open to them taking anything they wanted to take."


Fear Grips Tracy as Cops Search (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/07/MN8016UFO2.DTL)

Investigators appeared to be focusing most on the Clover Road Baptist Church, on West Clover Road about a quarter-mile from the park, and spent at least three hours since the discovery of Sandra's body questioning its pastor, Lane Lawless. Tuesday evening, officials in white forensics suits and gloves and armed with a search warrant were meticulously picking through the building.

No arrests were made, and police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said the pastor "has not been named as a suspect."

...Sandra's family - who gave no public interviews Tuesday - does not attend Clover Road Baptist Church, neighbors said. The church's Web site said Lawless has headed the church since 1981 and has three grown children and nine grandchildren.

[ThoughtFox]

Video of Police Searching Clover Road Church (http://cbs13.com/local/sandra.cantu.church.2.979203.html)

Screencaps of the Video ~ Not in Order of Appearance:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/church-container.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space1.jpg

Crawl Space
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space2.jpg

Gloves Discovered in Crawl Space
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space3-gloves.jpg

Plastic Bag Found on Property
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space9-plasticbag.jpg

Paper Towel Marked as Evidence
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space8-papertowel.jpg

Shed Searched
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/stuff/churchcrawl-space5-shed.jpg

[elle1919]

I can't tell is that paper towel inside the fence?

[**sweetpickles**]

would anyone happen to have an ariel photo marking Sandra's MHP and the Church?

TIA

[passionflower]

:eek:The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............:eek:

[~Always Have Hope~]

Question on crawl space.....is the crawl space accessible outside? I mean I know it is, but would it have been visible to anyone passing by? or would someone have to *know* it was there? Does that make sense??

[**sweetpickles**]

:eek:The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............:eek:

There were gloves found under the church correct?

That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up! WHY would there be a pair of gloves UNDER the church unless they were trying to hide something. And WHAT was in the shed???? I want INFO!!! :D

[lonetraveler]

Fred W, a member of the church says the luggage was to be part of a rummage sale and was stolen the day Sandra went missing.

(IIRC other posters here say Connie L has since said it was hers (?) to be donated to the rummage sale. I don't have a link for that, so maybe someone else can help me out!!)

http://www.kcra.com/news/19121818/detail.html

Williams said that the mysterious black suitcase Cantu was found in was reported stolen by another congregation member the same day Cantu disappeared.

"That suitcase was to go to the church for a rummage sale with some stuff in it and the person put it somewhere, either in the back of a car somewhere. But anyway, when she came back out the suitcase was gone," Williams said.


---
This is really strange to me. Who knew that the suitcase was put into the car? It seems to me that the murderer would have had to know about the suitcase. IMO, the murderer would not have killed Cantu and then walked around the Mobile Home Park looking for something to hide her in and coincidentally found a suitcase just sitting in a car waiting to be found just when a little girl needed to be hidden and disposed of in an irrigation pond. I'm just not buying it. Whoever took the little girl knew exactly where to find the suitcase and did not have to look very far for a way to hide Cantu.

[passionflower]

---
This is really strange to me. Who knew that the suitcase was put into the car? It seems to me that the murderer would have had to know about the suitcase. IMO, the murderer would not have killed Cantu and then walked around the Mobile Home Park looking for something to hide her in and coincidentally found a suitcase just sitting in a car waiting to be found just when a little girl needed to be hidden and disposed of in an irrigation pond. I'm just not buying it. Whoever took the little girl knew exactly where to find the suitcase and did not have to look very far for a way to hide Cantu.

bolded by me. Very Hinky for sure and this is important! I agree

[Sunburst70791]

bolded by me. Very Hinky for sure and this is important! I agree

yeah just a little too convenient.....what are the odds, huh?

[bp531]

I just noticed that the church website has been changed. It seems they have disabled alot of it. No more comments, which is good IMO. It was getting pretty ugly.

Sorry to quote my own post, but apparently I was mistaken. The church website is up like it originally was. It was really late last night when I was trying to access it, so it must have been something I was doing wrong. IDK

[nursebeeme]

quick thing on the church... I was just watching KRON live and they were answering questions that people tweeted in .... one of them was about the gloves...

They said that Shenehan would not confirm or deny that gloves were found under the church.

They also showed some video they took of the church search and it showed fbi using blue light inside

[~Always Have Hope~]

Also about the church~ just another thought provoking question (also that I sorta-semi posted on the Profile of a killer thread).....do we know if the church was accessible going out of the back of the MHP?

[tiredofthis]

:eek:The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............:eek:

Very creepy.

[**sweetpickles**]

Also about the church~ just another thought provoking question (also that I sorta-semi posted on the Profile of a killer thread).....do we know if the church was accessible going out of the back of the MHP?

There is only one way in and one way out, although it might be accessible via foot.

[~Always Have Hope~]

There is only one way in and one way out, although it might be accessible via foot.

via foot~ that's what has my curiousity (sp) up......

[SeriouslySearching]

Also about the church~ just another thought provoking question (also that I sorta-semi posted on the Profile of a killer thread).....do we know if the church was accessible going out of the back of the MHP?I tried to map it out and it appears there are yards with fences to prevent someone crossing easily from the mhp to the church via the back way.

[~Always Have Hope~]

I tried to map it out and it appears there are yards with fences to prevent someone crossing easily from the mhp to the church via the back way.

Thank you! I guess we (and I mean me) are back to focusing on the fact that Sandra had to have left the mhp via the regular one and only entrance....

[ilovemew]

quick thing on the church... I was just watching KRON live and they were answering questions that people tweeted in .... one of them was about the gloves...

They said that Shenehan would not confirm or deny that gloves were found under the church.

They also showed some video they took of the church search and it showed fbi using blue light inside

Isn't blue light used to detect blood? :mad:

[LinasK]

Are there any Tracy locals out there who know if the Clover Road Baptist Church does outreach/ helps the migrant farm workers or RSO's???

[LaLaw2000]

I do hope we find out later that cadaver dogs were at the church and especially at the opening to underneath the church. At least it would tell them if there had been a body there.

[txsvicki]

I wonder if the suitcase was gone before or after Sandra went missing. If it were right before, that would make the crime even more premeditated.

[Mysterylover]

Fred W, a member of the church says the luggage was to be part of a rummage sale and was stolen the day Sandra went missing.

(IIRC other posters here say Connie L has since said it was hers (?) to be donated to the rummage sale. I don't have a link for that, so maybe someone else can help me out!!)

http://www.kcra.com/news/19121818/detail.html

Williams said that the mysterious black suitcase Cantu was found in was

reported stolen by another congregation member the same day Cantu disappeared.

"That suitcase was to go to the church for a rummage sale with some stuff in it and the person put it somewhere, either in the back of a car somewhere.
But anyway, when she came back out the suitcase was gone," Williams said.

chicago, I read Williams had a rummage sale the day after the child went missing, but the church did NOT!

[Mysterylover]

---
This is really strange to me. Who knew that the suitcase was put into the car?
It seems to me that the murderer would have had to know about the suitcase.

IMO, the murderer would not have killed Cantu and then walked around the Mobile Home Park
looking for something to hide her in and coincidentally found a suitcase just sitting in a car waiting to be found just when a little girl needed to be hidden and disposed of in an irrigation pond.

I'm just not buying it.
Whoever took the little girl knew exactly where to find the suitcase and did not have to look very far for a way to hide Cantu....

lonetraveler, Bingo!!!

Did you hear:
It was said on the local news a few minutes ago that the KIA Suv may be involved in the crime. The owner of the vehicle is the grand daughter of the Pastor. ...Channel 2 San Francisco.

[Bee]

I am not in Tracy but about 30 or so miles away.
I have a close friend located about 5 Miles from the Orchard Estates mobile park. This case has REALLY shocked all of us in the S.F. bay are...
I wanted to share some facts about the church that were given to me from my friend in Tracy. I am not sure if any of this has been discussed..but here it goes :)
The Clover Road baptist Church is located Directly by 205, and is visible from the freeway. She said she has passed it several times and said you would NOT assume it was a church if it wasn't for the sign. Another interesting tidbit she shared, Fridays tends to be the worst day for traffic on 205. Stop and go if not stopped altogether. Apparently while in Traffic, if you are stopped you have a nice view of the church.. would be interesting to know if anyone did see people coming and going on the day of Sandra's disappearance.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Tracy&state=CA&address=11000+West+Clover+Road

. While she was doing research on all of this (not a websleuther but should be) she found this http://svng.com/tracy/
Not sure if this website has been seen/found by anyone else on this site.

[~Always Have Hope~]

chicago, I read Williams had a rummage sale the day after the child went missing, but the church did NOT!

could you provide a link? that seems very suspicious!!

[LinasK]

I am not in Tracy but about 30 or so miles away.
I have a close friend located about 5 Miles from the Orchard Estates mobile park. This case has REALLY shocked all of us in the S.F. bay are...
I wanted to share some facts about the church that were given to me from my friend in Tracy. I am not sure if any of this has been discussed..but here it goes :)
The Clover Road baptist Church is located Directly by 205, and is visible from the freeway. She said she has passed it several times and said you would NOT assume it was a church if it wasn't for the sign. Another interesting tidbit she shared, Fridays tends to be the worst day for traffic on 205. Stop and go if not stopped altogether. Apparently while in Traffic, if you are stopped you have a nice view of the church.. would be interesting to know if anyone did see people coming and going on the day of Sandra's disappearance.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Tracy&state=CA&address=11000+West+Clover+Road

. While she was doing research on all of this (not a websleuther but should be) she found this http://svng.com/tracy/
Not sure if this website has been seen/found by anyone else on this site. Welcome Bee to WS. You're probably around me...

[Nora Charles]

I am not in Tracy but about 30 or so miles away.
I have a close friend located about 5 Miles from the Orchard Estates mobile park. This case has REALLY shocked all of us in the S.F. bay are...
I wanted to share some facts about the church that were given to me from my friend in Tracy. I am not sure if any of this has been discussed..but here it goes :)
The Clover Road baptist Church is located Directly by 205, and is visible from the freeway. She said she has passed it several times and said you would NOT assume it was a church if it wasn't for the sign. Another interesting tidbit she shared, Fridays tends to be the worst day for traffic on 205. Stop and go if not stopped altogether. Apparently while in Traffic, if you are stopped you have a nice view of the church.. would be interesting to know if anyone did see people coming and going on the day of Sandra's disappearance.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Tracy&state=CA&address=11000+West+Clover+Road

. While she was doing research on all of this (not a websleuther but should be) she found this http://svng.com/tracy/
Not sure if this website has been seen/found by anyone else on this site.

Thanks for the information about the traffic. I don't believe it was posted before that it was stop and go with a view of the church. That is awesome news, and I pray some of those drivers call LE and report what they saw!

About the website, I've been meaning to go looking for a post from the individual who runs it so we could bring it into this thread...so thanks for giving me the push! :) It was originally posted back in the General Discussion Thread #6, before we got to "stretch our legs" here. (Thanks, mods!!!)

FWIW, she is a new WS member, this is her only post, and Admin has not verified who she claims to be. However, no one disagreed with her claim when she posted, and her post seems sincere and consistent with the tone of the website. (I read a bit on the website and they ask people to "Speak the truth in love" and they seem to be about healing the offended rather than bashing the offending.)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568392&postcount=295



Below is the content of that post (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote two different posts so I just copied hers):

Clover Road Baptist Church
Hi, everyone...

I'm new here. I'm the moderator of a site called www.sgmsurvivors.com, and I noticed that today we have received a number of hits from this board. A user posted information that linked Clover Road Baptist Church to the organization called Sovereign Grace Ministries that is the subject of the site that I moderate.

I haven't read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has already come up, but I just want to clarify that Clover Road Baptist Church has no connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes, Clover Road did at one point merge with another congregation that had "Sovereign Grace" in its name, but there has never been any affiliation between those churches and SGM.

I realize that this is probably old news and not a big deal, but I thought I'd post this info in case anyone was still under the impression that the issues discussed over at sgmsurvivors (our site) would have any relation to the investigation of Clover Road Baptist Church. They don't.

Thanks, and blessings to all. My heart is sad over the loss of Sandra!

[goofeegyrl]

I am not in Tracy but about 30 or so miles away.
I have a close friend located about 5 Miles from the Orchard Estates mobile park. This case has REALLY shocked all of us in the S.F. bay are...
I wanted to share some facts about the church that were given to me from my friend in Tracy. I am not sure if any of this has been discussed..but here it goes :)
The Clover Road baptist Church is located Directly by 205, and is visible from the freeway. She said she has passed it several times and said you would NOT assume it was a church if it wasn't for the sign. Another interesting tidbit she shared, Fridays tends to be the worst day for traffic on 205. Stop and go if not stopped altogether. Apparently while in Traffic, if you are stopped you have a nice view of the church.. would be interesting to know if anyone did see people coming and going on the day of Sandra's disappearance.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Tracy&state=CA&address=11000+West+Clover+Road


Exactly! I live in Sacramento, and oftentimes drive through Tracy on my way to visit my parents in the South Bay. In fact, we just drove down here on Tuesday and satisfied my thought that yes, it is right off the freeway, you can see the church and even the side of the MHP while on 205. I about lost my lunch driving by there. And, that traffic can be horrendous at that hour, it would seem like someone would not be too afraid of being caught with so many eyes around. Maybe tomorrow when we drive home I'll see if you can see the shed from the highway.

[scandi]

I thought I had read here somewhere that she had to have been "stored" for a few days because the irrigation pond would not have been filled yet.
I was thinking she was put in the crawl space for awhile.
Poor baby girl this su**s to type!!! :mad: :furious:

Hi Ilovemew, I read in a post here they did have bloodhounds out the first day. We did not hear if they alerted, so have to assume they didn't. Usually that kind of info does come out even in a tight lipped case. Now they could have alerted, and I know I shouldn't assume they didn't.

BUT it leads me to believe Sandra was not anywhere on dry land for the amount of time it would take the death scent to ripen to where a sniffer dog would alert.

To me that says she was in the water within 1 1/2 to 2 hours after she died. Pat Brown said today she thinks Sandra was killed fast, like within 1 hour or so. The killer knew she could ID him and so think it had to be premeditated with disposal already thought out, bag already in his car when he enticed her into his car.

Pat said he panicked when she died as he now had to dispose of her. I think she is right and he moved with lightening speed. And IMO by the time the call went to LE that she was missing, I am feeling so strong that she was already in the water. xox

[Bee]

Exactly! I live in Sacramento, and oftentimes drive through Tracy on my way to visit my parents in the South Bay. In fact, we just drove down here on Tuesday and satisfied my thought that yes, it is right off the freeway, you can see the church and even the side of the MHP while on 205. I about lost my lunch driving by there. And, that traffic can be horrendous at that hour, it would seem like someone would not be too afraid of being caught with so many eyes around. Maybe tomorrow when we drive home I'll see if you can see the shed from the highway.

That was my thought exactly! Especially on a Friday between 4 and 7pm it would be pretty stop and go. Last time I made that commute it was all STOP!!!
you can VERY easily see the church from the freeway, and if your like me you would be looking at it while the traffic wasn't moving. Since all we can do is speculate as to WHAT exactly LE thinks happened there...in my mind it would be a VERY central/highly visible area to try to be "sneaking" around during daylight or commute hours!
That's my opinion...

[scandi]

Exactly! I live in Sacramento, and oftentimes drive through Tracy on my way to visit my parents in the South Bay. In fact, we just drove down here on Tuesday and satisfied my thought that yes, it is right off the freeway, you can see the church and even the side of the MHP while on 205. I about lost my lunch driving by there. And, that traffic can be horrendous at that hour, it would seem like someone would not be too afraid of being caught with so many eyes around. Maybe tomorrow when we drive home I'll see if you can see the shed from the highway.

Thanks from those of us who are not in the area.

O/T, Do you travel the same route Scott Peterson did when he drove to the Berkeley Marina? I would be thinking about Laci and Connor too! xox

[LinasK]

Thanks from those of us who are not in the area.

O/T, Do you travel the same route Scott Peterson did when he drove to the Berkeley Marina? I would be thinking about Laci and Connor too! xox
Scandi, yes, Scott would have taken 205 from Modesto through Tracy to 580 up to 80 in Berkeley.

[passionflower]

What church believes in and a comment letter

http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm

[scandi]

Scandi, yes, Scott would have taken 205 from Modesto through Tracy to 580 up to 80 in Berkeley.

Thanks Linask, I had to give you this thanks personally after all we went thru in that case. xox

[Nora Charles]

Thanks, passionflower. That clears up something we were discussing on the Lawless thread so I copied your post over there.

What church believes in and a comment letter

http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm

[goofeegyrl]

Thanks from those of us who are not in the area.



So I was stuck behind a truck on my drive through Tracy today, so I was going fairly slow. I could not see the shed behind the church--in fact, while going east, there is not a very good view of the church due to the trees. If traffic were the usual stop and slow on Fri afternoon, I bet someone could see vehicles going in and out of the church, but prob nothing suspicious looking.

[ThoughtFox]

Question on crawl space.....is the crawl space accessible outside? I mean I know it is, but would it have been visible to anyone passing by? or would someone have to *know* it was there? Does that make sense??

I think they would have to know it was there. If you watch the video, the policewoman has to get down on her hands and knees to get in there, but seems to be able to stand once inside.

And whether the police will confirm the gloves or not - they obviously were pulled out by the person under the church on that video, and the TV reporter says they are gloves.

[SeriouslySearching]

They are searching the church again! This time they are up on the roof searching under the tiles along the top. Scandi had a friend with some insight into a possibility why.

By this evening, the crime-scene tape was back up again, and FBI agents and police were seen on the roof, in the shed and taking a pretty big piece of evidence — about the size of a curbside garbage can — from inside the church and into a crime scene van.

http://www.tracypress.com/pages/full_story?page_label=home&id=2298911-Church+searched+again&article-Church%20searched%20again%20=&widget=push&instance=home_news_lead_story&open=&

[SeriouslySearching]

I just called one of our installers and told him the situation about the selling of porn on the internet, the cop walking on the roof, a fold-up bed removed from the church today, etc, and listen to this!

He told me what he thinks that cop was looking for was a receiver on top of the roof, hidden in the shingles. It could be as small as a microchip but probably the size of a cell phone.

What would happen is that as the photos are taken they are picked up by the receiver and then loaded directly onto the internet by someone else who receives them from that receiver.

That is the simplified version, as far as my non-electronic mind can take it. But he said it would take several people to do but it would work nifty. I forgot to ask him how the pictures get transmitted up to the receiver on the roof. Maybe we have someone here who knows that. I think it is all wireless equipment. xoxThanks for the 411, Scandi!!

[passionflower]

It seems that churches, under age sex and perverts (inc FDL & priests)
are getting more and more popular.
I hope LE,FBI follows a money trail..............and TRACY60
I think this is the tip of the iceberg and that the canary will sing..........
or has sung!!! (confession and tell about others)
She lived with grandparents! They KNOW more than they will ever confess!
and THEY left town..............would we? if innocent????

[Texana]

It seems that churches, under age sex and perverts (inc FDL & priests)
are getting more and more popular.
I hope LE,FBI follows a money trail..............and TRACY60
I think this is the tip of the iceberg and that the canary will sing..........
or has sung!!! (confession and tell about others)
She lived with grandparents! They KNOW more than they will ever confess!
and THEY left town..............would we? if innocent????

I am coming fairly new to this, but just reading the background on Huckaby, it sounds as if she has always been a troubled individual.

The people who are close to her will think, "Oh, good, Melissa is being active in church, she is getting her life together" or "Melissa needs to keep up the church and do more of it, to keep her out of trouble."

Other more objective people would look at this and think, "Stay away from children because you have some serious issues!"

Poor sweet child Sandra. She looks like such a trusting little girl.

I just want to know more about the why and the how, because I can't wrap my head around this.

[tiredofthis]

I am coming fairly new to this, but just reading the background on Huckaby, it sounds as if she has always been a troubled individual.

The people who are close to her will think, "Oh, good, Melissa is being active in church, she is getting her life together" or "Melissa needs to keep up the church and do more of it, to keep her out of trouble."

Other more objective people would look at this and think, "Stay away from children because you have some serious issues!"

Poor sweet child Sandra. She looks like such a trusting little girl.

I just want to know more about the why and the how, because I can't wrap my head around this.

Most children this age are trusting, that is what makes this so heartbreaking.

[passionflower]

The church only has 15-20 members.
Who are the members?
The church hasn't had services since 2007.
Who pays pastor? caretaker? utilities?
What is church used for?
Money trail...........
Is this church really a small cult meeting place???
WHY a fold up bed in the church?
Who all has keys? every member?

[Nora Charles]

The church hasn't had services since 2007.


What is your source for this?

[nursebeeme]

One video I watched today on cbs13 said the church planned on having Easter services today (that was before Melissa's arrest so not sure if they did or not)

I believe a blog that cannot be named was reporting those things about the church (nurse personally does not buy it)

[Kat]

Slide show of pictures taken at the Clover Road Baptist Church for Easter Sunday Service.

http://www.mercurynews.com/portlet/article/html/render_gallery.jsp?articleId=12128530&siteId=568&startImage=5

~my personal opinion~ Melissa not only devastated Sandra's family by murdering Sandra but she has devastated her own family too.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

The church only has 15-20 members.
Who are the members?
The church hasn't had services since 2007.
Who pays pastor? caretaker? utilities?
What is church used for?
Money trail...........
Is this church really a small cult meeting place???
WHY a fold up bed in the church?
Who all has keys? every member?

Good questions...I wonder most of the same things. Especially who pays the bills? Possibly 1 or 2 affluent members? And what do the few members find so appealing about attending such a tiny church? The fold up bed doesn't stirke me as odd. All 3 of the churches I've been a member at have had several fold up beds for visiting missions teams/homeless/passer-throughs that have some affiliation with the church.

[Kat]

Those are good questions I agree. As for a very small congregation, many times I have seen churches where the as the congregation ages and there are no new members, the congregation will dwindle to almost nothing. (Subjective observation on my part).

The few congregants that stay, stay because they have attended the church for a good portion of their lives, or they have a special affinity or devotion to that Pastor. (My own observation)

The question as to who pays for what at this church can't be answered without knowing who owns the land the church sits on, and who owns the building. If the building is paid off and owned free and clear by a congregant or is rented would need to be known.

As for the Pastor, I have no information about him other than he is a Pastor. It is my experience from being the Granddaughter of a Preacher who had his own congregation that many Pastors will work other jobs. My own Grandfather was a full time Pastor of a smallish congregation and he also was a Special Education Teacher for 5th graders.

Just some food for thought about those questions.

[Gaia713]

Thanks from those of us who are not in the area.

O/T, Do you travel the same route Scott Peterson did when he drove to the Berkeley Marina? I would be thinking about Laci and Connor too! xox
I believe Scott took 132 to 5 to 580, instead of 99 to 120 to 205 to 580. His warehouse was just blocks from 132. There are only those two routes from Modesto to the Bay Area.

[Gaia713]

They are searching the church again! This time they are up on the roof searching under the tiles along the top. Scandi had a friend with some insight into a possibility why.

By this evening, the crime-scene tape was back up again, and FBI agents and police were seen on the roof, in the shed and taking a pretty big piece of evidence — about the size of a curbside garbage can — from inside the church and into a crime scene van.

http://www.tracypress.com/pages/full_story?page_label=home&id=2298911-Church+searched+again&article-Church%20searched%20again%20=&widget=push&instance=home_news_lead_story&open=& I find it so sad that all this is happening under the cover of a church.

[Gaia713]

I thought Gacy was probably classified as organized also, but have never read a profiler's report on him. I'm very aware of his crimes and the burying, the wanting to be close to his victims. He was totally schizo and his behavior in prison was also incredibly bizarre.

The hiding behind a mask of a clown--- metaphorically, being a " kind man who likes children".
Just thinkin' about the men who do evil while hiding behind different types of " masks".

I agree with what you've said about Sandra's killer being someone she knew and trusted.

Most pedophiles "like" children. They claim to in order to gain access to them. That's why churches need to patrol the people who are working with the youth in the church. Look at all the priests who have been accused of being pedophiles. I know ofone who was found to be a pedophile and all the church did was transfer him to a church in Turlock.

I don't think this is the answer.

[SeekingJana]

Most pedophiles "like" children. They claim to in order to gain access to them. That's why churches need to patrol the people who are working with the youth in the church. Look at all the priests who have been accused of being pedophiles. I know ofone who was found to be a pedophile and all the church did was transfer him to a church in Turlock.

I don't think this is the answer.

I guess I didn't phrase my post too well, did I? Take out the " likes children" part.. I really do know better than to have phrased a sentence in an ambiguous way. I am so embarrassed. :blushing:
To all who are reading here who are abuse survivors, I am so sorry.
I know, of course, that those who commit crimes against children are preying upon their innocence. That every aspect concerning a sex crime against a child is deviant criminal behavior, and that the criminal pedophile cannot truly like or love a child. A deviant attraction or act against a child is certainly different from " liking' them.

I don't think sexual predators can ever be rehabilitated or put back in general society safely. But, of course, most are released, and we can only guess at the outcomes unless one makes the headlines as a re-offender, like Couey.

[capoly]

Am sure this link is already posted but couldn't find it. Just have to say it sickens me when the photo of the killer is side-by-side with their victim. Especially when the victim is a child. Petty, I know, but can't help it....just makes me ill to see Sandra's beautiful eyes so full of life so close to the eyes that watched as those beautiful eyes closed for their final time. We really do need a swear forum....maybe a pay-for-use one...like a family swear box.


Police say Sandra Cantu was killed in church
http://www.cbs12.com/news/church_4716798___article.html/huckaby_cantu.html

[elle1919]

Am sure this link is already posted but couldn't find it. Just have to say it sickens me when the photo of the killer is side-by-side with their victim. Especially when the victim is a child. Petty, I know, but can't help it....just makes me ill to see Sandra's beautiful eyes so full of life so close to the eyes that watched as those beautiful eyes closed for their final time. We really do need a swear forum....maybe a pay-for-use one...like a family swear box.


Police say Sandra Cantu was killed in church
http://www.cbs12.com/news/church_4716798___article.html/huckaby_cantu.html


I wanted to bump this post because there seemed to be a bit of confusion in regards to whether or not the church is where the crime was committed. I read it to be that the church is the place where Sandra was killed.

I also wanted to say that I am a member of a Baptist church and the Sunday school teachers must attend classes before being put in a leadership role in the church. Also since they are involved with the education of children(my church also is a Baptist Academy) they must submit to a background check and adhere to bylaws. I sincerely hope that this incident draws a lot of attention to this church and significant investigations are being done. Parents who think their children are safe because they are in a building labeled as a church shouldn't take for granted that their children are safe. In my opinion. Take nothing for granted.

[tiredofthis]

Am sure this link is already posted but couldn't find it. Just have to say it sickens me when the photo of the killer is side-by-side with their victim. Especially when the victim is a child. Petty, I know, but can't help it....just makes me ill to see Sandra's beautiful eyes so full of life so close to the eyes that watched as those beautiful eyes closed for their final time. We really do need a swear forum....maybe a pay-for-use one...like a family swear box.


Police say Sandra Cantu was killed in church
http://www.cbs12.com/news/church_4716798___article.html/huckaby_cantu.html

True. They need to place the picture of the killer on the opposite side of the page and place flames around it.

Well, at least I would feel better if they did it this way.

[SeriouslySearching]

Isn't blue light used to detect blood? :mad:Knowing what we know now...this question haunts me. (sigh)

[Zelda]

I wanted to bump this post because there seemed to be a bit of confusion in regards to whether or not the church is where the crime was committed. I read it to be that the church is the place where Sandra was killed.

I also wanted to say that I am a member of a Baptist church and the Sunday school teachers must attend classes before being put in a leadership role in the church. Also since they are involved with the education of children(my church also is a Baptist Academy) they must submit to a background check and adhere to bylaws. I sincerely hope that this incident draws a lot of attention to this church and significant investigations are being done. Parents who think their children are safe because they are in a building labeled as a church shouldn't take for granted that their children are safe. In my opinion. Take nothing for granted.

referenced in the thread about the Tracy reporter who helped LE.

It says that sources close to the investigation say that Sandra was murdered in the church--just two blocks away from the mobile home park.

[Nonni Brenda]

This is not your usually normal Baptist Church. MOO, I would be willing to bet that the church is small by design. Meaning: there are a few small churches in my community which do not encourage outside visitors, outside of the family that is. Could be that this family already knew about MH's pedophile problem, or at least her mental state. I also feel that she has this problem for a reason, maybe that there are other pedophiles in her family that did the same thing to her growing up, and maybe other children in the family. JUST MY OPINION ONLY. They believe in and want to worship God, but not in a church that may notice their differences and judge them. Not sure I am being clear on my thoughts. Hope I am saying this right. I try not to judge others without good reason, but just offering my opinion. Nonni

[snapdragon]

Are there any Tracy locals out there who know if the Clover Road Baptist Church does outreach/ helps the migrant farm workers or RSO's???

I am from Tracy. This is unlikely. The story here locally is that no one seems to know much about the church. There is a Jehovah's witness church across the street, and some of their members were interviewed in the press. They stated that they did not ever really see anyone over there, nor had they spoken to anyone at the Clover rd baptist church. Same thing with neighbors to the church.. no one really saw anyone going there.

Supposedly, they haven't had regular services since 2007. Local papers have cited their congregation at being around 15 in number (I have no idea where that number came from). Local pastors in town have said that Pastor Lawless "isolated" himself from the Tracy church community. He was invited on numerous occasions to local church leaders' socials and never attended.

I am thinking it was a TAX SHELTER.

[snapdragon]

You know, I am confused about something. There are all these references to MH being a Sunday school teacher at her grandfather's church.. the Clover Road Baptist Church. If it is true, as local press has reported, that neighbors never saw anyone there, they haven't had services since 2007, and MH has only been in Tracy for 4-6mos, who the heck was she teaching?????? I am very confused about this and if someone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

[JoeFromLB]

You know, I am confused about something. There are all these references to MH being a Sunday school teacher at her grandfather's church.. the Clover Road Baptist Church. If it is true, as local press has reported, that neighbors never saw anyone there, they haven't had services since 2007, and MH has only been in Tracy for 4-6mos, who the heck was she teaching?????? I am very confused about this and if someone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

To my knowledge there have been no parishioners who have spoken to the press about the church, nor have any parents of the children in the "Sunday school" class taught by MH surfaced. There's a big blank spot there.

Very odd.

[SeriouslySearching]

I believe the neighbor's comment said he saw little activity there. This could mean he didn't see many cars or many people. However, it could be explained by people being within walking distance to the church. We know it was a small congregation which doesn't make it rogue or sinister. (No matter what I said before...:P LOL)

[passionflower]

Well, about a week ago, I tried to make a list of the 15 members of who we knew went to the 'church'............so far I only have
MH, her daughter
Connie
Lane
Fred Williams
who else????

[snapdragon]

I believe the neighbor's comment said he saw little activity there. This could mean he didn't see many cars or many people. However, it could be explained by people being within walking distance to the church. We know it was a small congregation which doesn't make it rogue or sinister. (No matter what I said before...:P LOL)

SS- re: walking distance. The most populous area w/in walking distance on that road is the MHP. And I did see it mentioned at some point in the local paper that it was believed that no one in the MHP attended that church. It was also confirmed that Sandra and her family did not attend that church, but did attend a different one. The rest of the area out there is pretty rural.. a few country homes, another church (Jehovah's witness). It really isn't an area where I would expect it to be easy walking distance except for the MHP.

You are correct in that we cannot be quick to judge. So far we only know of one other church member besides the Lawless family. That is Fred Williams. And evidently, he has a rap sheet. That is all I know about the congregation.

[SeriouslySearching]

Where did we come up with the church having only 15 members?

It is also equally important to note...there ARE no other suspects in this case. Melissa Huckaby acted alone.

[JoeFromLB]

SS- re: walking distance. The most populous area w/in walking distance on that road is the MHP. And I did see it mentioned at some point in the local paper that it was believed that no one in the MHP attended that church. It was also confirmed that Sandra and her family did not attend that church, but did attend a different one. The rest of the area out there is pretty rural.. a few country homes, another church (Jehovah's witness). It really isn't an area where I would expect it to be easy walking distance except for the MHP.

You are correct in that we cannot be quick to judge. So far we only know of one other church member besides the Lawless family. That is Fred Williams. And evidently, he has a rap sheet. That is all I know about the congregation.

This is extremely odd, IMO.

As far as the "Sunday School" is concerned, we're looking at MH's 5-year old daughter as the only probable member of the class MH was teaching, unless there were other children enrolled whose parents were not necessarily members of the church. I can see that happening, that's not all that rare I think.

But the deafening silence surrounding this church is very strange. Where are the parents of all those children MH was supposedly teaching? Nobody's come forward to identify themselves as associated with the church. What's the information blackout surrounding this church all about? I can't find any facts about its congregation or ministries anywhere on the Web.
There's supposed to be a website (I've seen references to it), but I can't find it.
Was she really taking supplies over to the church in that suitcase to "spruce up" the classroom, as she said she did a couple times a year? There must have been a pretty good sized enrollment to necessitate "sprucing up" the classroom several times a year.

And one more question. Who's teaching the Sunday School class now that MH is in jail?

[Annette73]

Well, if there really was a Sunday School going on, I hope not too many children were enrolled, as they are very likely victims of this woman, too.

[Miss Anarchy]

I was trying to pull up the church's website today and it wasn't working. All I got was a bible quote. Is anyone else having problems?

[Annette73]

Thinking about this, I remembered reading some time ago that pedophiles usually put themselves in a personal or professional position that gives them access to children. Being a pedophile affects even their career choices. Sometimes you wonder how many priests, teachers, etc, people with access to children, commit these kinds of crimes. It's because these monsters put themselves there. Sunday School teacher fits this profile like a glove, if you ask me. She put herself in a position of trust (a church member) where she had unsupervised access to children. LE should really look into this bible class. Sick, sick, sick....:mad:

[Nonni Brenda]

SS- re: walking distance. The most populous area w/in walking distance on that road is the MHP. And I did see it mentioned at some point in the local paper that it was believed that no one in the MHP attended that church. It was also confirmed that Sandra and her family did not attend that church, but did attend a different one. The rest of the area out there is pretty rural.. a few country homes, another church (Jehovah's witness). It really isn't an area where I would expect it to be easy walking distance except for the MHP.

You are correct in that we cannot be quick to judge. So far we only know of one other church member besides the Lawless family. That is Fred Williams. And evidently, he has a rap sheet. That is all I know about the congregation.

Wonder if MH's friend Sinclair went there?

[Nonni Brenda]

I was trying to pull up the church's website today and it wasn't working. All I got was a bible quote. Is anyone else having problems?

I got it to come up when Sandra first went missing and it was first mentioned. All it told was info about pastor, times of meetings,etc. regular things about a church. Nothing unusal. Nonni

[SeriouslySearching]

The website of the church wasn't updated for a very long time. It was an old one and obviously not accessed much by anyone in the church. There was a single comment left dating back to 2008...IIRC (from the Pastor's cousin trying to track him down?).

The member page had never been put together and posted...or at least by the looks of it when I saw it.

Again..where did we get the church only had 15 members?

[scandi]

I find it so sad that all this is happening under the cover of a church.

What is truly sad is how many children have been abused by members of the clergy, continually and often without punishment.

One example is Father O'Grady, banished now to Ireland, who once raped a small baby while staying as a guest in a parishoner's home! Brought to us by Love Mama, bless her soul, whose DIL Amy scripted a documentary on the subject. xox

[Nonni Brenda]

The website of the church wasn't updated for a very long time. It was an old one and obviously not accessed much by anyone in the church. There was a single comment left dating back to 2008...IIRC (from the Pastor's cousin trying to track him down?).

The member page had never been put together and posted...or at least by the looks of it when I saw it.

Again..where did we get the church only had 15 members?

I cant remember that either. I'll go back and search. Cant now though, taking my grandchildren to Jazz and food concert "Taste of Cartersville." (Ga.). will be back about 9pm. everything closes up early here.LOL:blowkiss:Nonni

[Nonni Brenda]

I cant remember that either. I'll go back and search. Cant now though, taking my grandchildren to Jazz and food concert "Taste of Cartersville." (Ga.). will be back about 9pm. everything closes up early here.LOL:blowkiss:Nonni

BTW, leashing all the grandchildren to my belt so no one will snatch them. They are ages 12 13 14 14. Hope they like Jazz.:)

[snapdragon]

The website of the church wasn't updated for a very long time. It was an old one and obviously not accessed much by anyone in the church. There was a single comment left dating back to 2008...IIRC (from the Pastor's cousin trying to track him down?).

The member page had never been put together and posted...or at least by the looks of it when I saw it.

Again..where did we get the church only had 15 members?

SS- I am the one who said 15 members. I heard this on a news report at some point.. not sure if it was F. William's who said it or not. It was not verified by Pastor Lawless, who has said very little. I watched so many media reports after they found the body, that I can't remember where I heard it. But it did stick in my mind. I will try to find a reference to it.

Here is an excerpt from the Tracy Press re: the church and Lawless. I will attach the link as well:

"But the Clover Road Baptist Church seems as physically isolated from the rest of the city, one of the last buildings on a dead-end street, as it seems culturally set apart from other churches in town.

Several Tracy pastors said they don’t know that much about Lawless; he doesn’t join the 15 or 20 other pastors in town for Thursday prayer breakfasts.

Tim Heinrich of the Crossroads Baptist Church said Lawless declines to network with fellow pastors in town. Other pastors said the church has few events and focuses on church history because it disagrees with some of the tenets of others churches.

No one in the neighborhood surrounding Orchard Estates said they attend the Baptist church — surrounded now by yellow crime-scene tape. About a dozen neighbors said they don’t know anyone who does and that it has a tiny congregation.

Folks from a Jehovah’s Witness church across the street from Clover Road Baptist said they've never talked to anyone from the congregation. Pastors, members and elders of a handful of other churches in northern Tracy said the same thing."

http://www.tracypress.com/pages/full_story?page_label=results_content&id=2261962-Town+mourns+its+lost+child+as+police+look+for+clue s&article-Town%20mourns%20its%20lost%20child%20as%20police%2 0look%20for%20clues%20=&widget=push&open=&

[snapdragon]

Just a note:

Keep in mind when you visit newspaper sites online and view their posted stories, that you are not seeing what comes out in the actual paper in its entirety. They tend to post the most popular sections/stories online. The paper actually contains more, such as editorials not on the web, smaller stories, etc.

[snapdragon]

SS,

I found it! It actually is quoted as "20 or so members" not 15. I did hear 15 somewhere else, but this is the only thing I can find reference to. It is a quote from Joanie Hughes, who idendifies herself as the daughter of Lane and Connie Lawless:


The church has a small congregation, only 20 or so members, Hughes said.

Here's the reference- http://m.contracostatimes.com/contracosta/db_10590/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=603C22BD352EDC133B5C9 FA253F73A0B?contentguid=jCoM2ven&storycount=14&detailindex=4&full=true

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for verifying, Snap! ;) I just wanted to make certain we had our facts right on the subject.

[SeriouslySearching]

I cant remember that either. I'll go back and search. Cant now though, taking my grandchildren to Jazz and food concert "Taste of Cartersville." (Ga.). will be back about 9pm. everything closes up early here.LOL:blowkiss:NonniOff Topic: I love Jazz festivals!! I am jealous now. :) Hope you and the grands have a great time. (Will ya bring me a funnel cake and a beer?!)

[JoeFromLB]

SS,

I found it! It actually is quoted as "20 or so members" not 15. I did hear 15 somewhere else, but this is the only thing I can find reference to. It is a quote from Joanie Hughes, who idendifies herself as the daughter of Lane and Connie Lawless:


The church has a small congregation, only 20 or so members, Hughes said.

Here's the reference- http://m.contracostatimes.com/contracosta/db_10590/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=603C22BD352EDC133B5C9 FA253F73A0B?contentguid=jCoM2ven&storycount=14&detailindex=4&full=true

Thanks for posting that. I was about to post that and some more things I found when my internet connection went down a few hours ago.
But now it's back up, and here goes:

The home page of the church's website has nothing but a Bible quote, but I did a little digging and found some of the other links on that site. Here they are:

Pastor's bio:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Schedule of services:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Church_services.htm

Members page (empty):
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/members.htm

And a link which you'll see named "T.O.B." which takes you to a strange chart called "Trail of Blood" (how ironic a title!), which is apparently what this pastor believes and teaches. It's an odd belief (to me, at least) that the Baptists go all the way back to 251 A.D. and the chart is a repudiation of both Catholics AND Protestants. How do you like that!

http://www.biblepreaching.com/chart.html

(This link came up when I clicked on "T.O.B.")

Curiouser and curiouser...

[snapdragon]

Off Topic: I love Jazz festivals!! I am jealous now. :) Hope you and the grands have a great time. (Will ya bring me a funnel cake and a beer?!)

OT: I'm jealous too! Bring me a nice glass of chardonnay (it's 85 deg here!!)

[JoeFromLB]

One more link, from the Sunday School. Apparently the lessons stopped in February, 2002.

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

[snapdragon]

SS is correct in a prior post that we need to remember that there are no other suspects or accomplices at this time. I am not proposing that the Lawless family was involved in this murder, but rather just looking at their lifestyle/beliefs.

I, too, have looked at their site. They shun almost every other church. I looked at the Trail of Blood. Interesting. I actually work with a guy who belongs to a church in Modesto, CA. The weird thing is that his church is basically just family members, and a few others. They have some pretty weird ideas about life and death, and I have always thought this guy more than a little "strange". The clover rd baptist church is reminding me a lot of this guy's church....

Not to offend, but these people seem just a bit WHACKADOODLE!

[JoeFromLB]

It seems the pastor was ordained by the "Winton MBC" in 1971. I'm assuming the MBC stands for "Missionary Baptist Church". A preliminary search of the Web turns up nothing specific under that name. There are some other Baptist churches in Winton, N.C., but not this one.

I'll keep searching.

btw., he was baptized in 1960 by his father-in-law, according to his Bio page.

[txsvicki]

Thanks for posting that. I was about to post that and some more things I found when my internet connection went down a few hours ago.
But now it's back up, and here goes:

The home page of the church's website has nothing but a Bible quote, but I did a little digging and found some of the other links on that site. Here they are:

Pastor's bio:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Schedule of services:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Church_services.htm

Members page (empty):
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/members.htm

And a link which you'll see named "T.O.B." which takes you to a strange chart called "Trail of Blood" (how ironic a title!), which is apparently what this pastor believes and teaches. It's an odd belief (to me, at least) that the Baptists go all the way back to 251 A.D. and the chart is a repudiation of both Catholics AND Protestants. How do you like that!

http://www.biblepreaching.com/chart.html

(This link came up when I clicked on "T.O.B.")

Curiouser and curiouser...

It's not that odd really. I was a member of a Fundamentalist Baptist Church and I used to have the Trail of Blood booklet. It's also is a sad little book to read because it shows the history of so many people who were percecuted and murdered over the centuries for having the Anabaptist type beliefs, and refused to baptize their infants. They also only believe the KJV is the only authorized by God version of the Bible. I can see why he doesn't meet with the other pastors because they don't join associations, and it's not really a popular church that would grow. The Pastor was there 30 years, his congregation probably got old, and no newer members. They really don't focus on big new buildings and coming up with entertainments type services to attract people. Also, it's not that weird or horribly strict church that could have contributed to Melissa's problems, other than maybe not allowing her to wear pants. This church may be another branch, but it sure sounds Fundamentalist. My aunt was a member of a Missionary Baptist Church, and I used to enjoy visiting her church as a child. It wasn't as strict as my church because they did wear pants and I believe read other versions of the Bible. If this is the one, then Melissa's church growing up wasn't weird or all that strict.

[passionflower]

SS is correct in a prior post that we need to remember that there are no other suspects or accomplices at this time. I am not proposing that the Lawless family was involved in this murder, but rather just looking at their lifestyle/beliefs.

I, too, have looked at their site. They shun almost every other church. I looked at the Trail of Blood. Interesting. I actually work with a guy who belongs to a church in Modesto, CA. The weird thing is that his church is basically just family members, and a few others. They have some pretty weird ideas about life and death, and I have always thought this guy more than a little "strange". The clover rd baptist church is reminding me a lot of this guy's church....

Not to offend, but these people seem just a bit WHACKADOODLE!

IMO, cult like...........

[passionflower]

IMO, the church is the 'key' or the 'core' of all of this...........going back 30 years ago.
Teachings, how Connie/Lane raised their family, where and why did the original congregation leave?
Why does no one talk about 'their' church?
How big was the church in it's prime time?
The money to keep building going?
MH lies about Sunday school room and teaching.........Connie? Lane know these lies?
So many unanswered questions on a church that seems like it really doesn't serve it's purpose anymore.........IMO

[txsvicki]

IMO, cult like...........


To some they may be cult like, but they also helped us to gain freedom to have any religion we want and separation of church and state here in America. Many Baptists who immigrated from Europe here to the Colonies where viciously whipped, heavily fined, imprisoned, and banished. One pastor was banished to live with the Indians and went on to save the colony from Indian attack when he pled for them.

[JoeFromLB]

IMO, the church is the 'key' or the 'core' of all of this...........going back 30 years ago.
Teachings, how Connie/Lane raised their family, where and why did the original congregation leave?
Why does no one talk about 'their' church?
How big was the church in it's prime time?
The money to keep building going?
MH lies about Sunday school room and teaching.........Connie? Lane know these lies?
So many unanswered questions on a church that seems like it really doesn't serve it's purpose anymore.........IMO

All very good questions, IMO.

[snapdragon]

IMO, the church is the 'key' or the 'core' of all of this...........going back 30 years ago.
Teachings, how Connie/Lane raised their family, where and why did the original congregation leave?
Why does no one talk about 'their' church?
How big was the church in it's prime time?
The money to keep building going?
MH lies about Sunday school room and teaching.........Connie? Lane know these lies?
So many unanswered questions on a church that seems like it really doesn't serve it's purpose anymore.........IMO

Weird , yes. But, in and of itself, did not cause a woman to rape and murder a child. I don't believe that.

My opinion of clover rd baptist church??? TAX SHELTER!

[Nonni Brenda]

Off Topic: I love Jazz festivals!! I am jealous now. :) Hope you and the grands have a great time. (Will ya bring me a funnel cake and a beer?!)

SS, wish you could have been there. We're a relatively small town, so had only 1 band, but they were absolutely wonderful. The grands didn't want to try the food there (Micky D's is their favorite), so I talked them into going to Longhorn's, then we went back for more music. Sorry OT everyone. BTW, no one got lost or stolen.:) I lived in Atlanta about 10 yrs. Taste of Atlanta was the real place to be. Time of my life!

[Nonni Brenda]

OT: I'm jealous too! Bring me a nice glass of chardonnay (it's 85 deg here!!)

This sounds wonderful. Seems now adays I spend all my time with the young set, although my 14 yr old g-sons think they are 21.LOL

[paperwing]

Is there any significance to the designation of Missionary and/or Independent (per the Church's sign)?

I don't know, maybe it doesn't mean anything... but maybe such a designation means a less traditional setting.

I have read that MH was a volunteer Sunday School teacher (and choir member) at her (uncle's?) church in Bellflower, not the Clover Rd church - but that was early on and I don't see any reference to it elsewhere so I guess that was dismissed as inaccurate. LE will be able to easily determine whether or not there were actual Sun Sch. classes being held at the nearby church or not - doesn't seem as though there was much activity going on there.

Would a church have ongoing Sun Sch. but no services for 2 years? Odd.

[SeriouslySearching]

Is there any significance to the designation of Missionary and/or Independent (per the Church's sign)?

I don't know, maybe it doesn't mean anything... but maybe such a designation means a less traditional setting.

I have read that MH was a volunteer Sunday School teacher (and choir member) at her (uncle's?) church in Bellflower, not the Clover Rd church - but that was early on and I don't see any reference to it elsewhere so I guess that was dismissed as inaccurate. LE will be able to easily determine whether or not there were actual Sun Sch. classes being held at the nearby church or not - doesn't seem as though there was much activity going on there.

Would a church have ongoing Sun Sch. but no services for 2 years? Odd.That report was inaccurate. The church that was mentioned was her father's church which is hours away. LE did determine (they have made statements to this) she was a Sunday School teacher at her grandfather's church which is Clover Baptist and where it is believed that Sandra was murdered.

[paperwing]

Thanks, SeriouslySearching - makes sense that was a false rumor.

[passionflower]

To some they may be cult like, but they also helped us to gain freedom to have any religion we want and separation of church and state here in America. Many Baptists who immigrated from Europe here to the Colonies where viciously whipped, heavily fined, imprisoned, and banished. One pastor was banished to live with the Indians and went on to save the colony from Indian attack when he pled for them.

I am not knocking any church or religion.........just the fact that I don't think this is a REAL church with REAL religion NOW. After the congregation left,
I wonder what happened NOW........last 2 years!

[Winnow]

Okay, this is second, third, fourth hand -- whatever...

It is an interesting quote from the Tracy Press "comments" section:


"« djds wrote on Saturday, Apr 18 at 02:36 PM »
I agree.. that something's 'off' about her whole family..(MH's). Like someone stated prior that lived in the same park.. that 'when they walked into that church one day that the grandfather runs, that 'everybody stared at them like they seen a ghost'. Seems kind of weird to me? Only about 15 or so 'members'? and they were a closed off bunch I heard? seems strange.. something isn't right there....."

[Columbo]

So she was a Sunday School teacher at Clover Road Baptist Church...but that had to be a few years back, since they discontinued Sunday School classes years ago?

So don't you think the Lawless family would have been scratching their heads at Melissa's claim that she had a suitcase full of supplies to use in a Sunday School class? (hopefully i have the story straight here, that is what she claimed, right?)

[SeriouslySearching]

Can anyone tell me where it states they don't have Sunday School at Clover Baptist Church? The website is very old and hasn't been updated for eons. If there is another location which states their hours etc., I would like to see it.

[passionflower]

okay, this is second, third, fourth hand -- whatever...

It is an interesting quote from the tracy press "comments" section:


"« djds wrote on saturday, apr 18 at 02:36 pm »
i agree.. That something's 'off' about her whole family..(mh's). Like someone stated prior that lived in the same park.. That 'when they walked into that church one day that the grandfather runs, that 'everybody stared at them like they seen a ghost'. Seems kind of weird to me? Only about 15 or so 'members'? And they were a closed off bunch i heard? Seems strange.. Something isn't right there....."

wow!!!!

[Columbo]

Can anyone tell me where it states they don't have Sunday School at Clover Baptist Church? The website is very old and hasn't been updated for eons. If there is another location which states their hours etc., I would like to see it.

Hi -- I may be getting confused, but I was sure I read among the posts somewhere that Sunday School had been discontinued at Clover Baptist Church. I thought the poster said it was in 2002? I apologize if I have made an erroneous statement....Maybe I read it wrong.

See post # 120. Questions whether a church with hardly any services would have Sun School classes. I know this doesn't prove what I was driving at in my previous post, so I'll keep looking. Maybe the info I saw was on a different thread. Again, I really apologize if I'm wrong because I don't want to start false rumors here...

[JoeFromLB]

So she was a Sunday School teacher at Clover Road Baptist Church...but that had to be a few years back, since they discontinued Sunday School classes years ago?

So don't you think the Lawless family would have been scratching their heads at Melissa's claim that she had a suitcase full of supplies to use in a Sunday School class? (hopefully i have the story straight here, that is what she claimed, right?)

Yes, that's what she claimed. I believe she told that story to a reporter.
You make a very good point about the suitcase supposedly full of classroom supplies. I hope LE has a good handle on this whole area, there are some real mysteries here.

[JoeFromLB]

Can anyone tell me where it states they don't have Sunday School at Clover Baptist Church? The website is very old and hasn't been updated for eons. If there is another location which states their hours etc., I would like to see it.

Their current home page has nothing but a Bible quote. I had to search around for awhile to find the other pages on the site.

Services:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Church_services.htm

Pastor's Bio:
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Members (empty):
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/members.htm

Sunday School lessons (stops in Feb.2002):
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

Events ("Sorry, Area under construction"):
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/events.htm

Sunday "Bible Study" is scheduled for 10:30 AM, according to the site.

[JoeFromLB]

Hi -- I may be getting confused, but I was sure I read among the posts somewhere that Sunday School had been discontinued at Clover Baptist Church. I thought the poster said it was in 2002? I apologize if I have made an erroneous statement....Maybe I read it wrong.

See post # 120. Questions whether a church with hardly any services would have Sun School classes. I know this doesn't prove what I was driving at in my previous post, so I'll keep looking. Maybe the info I saw was on a different thread. Again, I really apologize if I'm wrong because I don't want to start false rumors here...

I don't know about the Sunday school itself, but the lessons listed on the webite only go up to February, 2002:

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

Of course, the website itself may not have been updated since that time, for whatever reasons, so that doesn't necessarily prove the classes haven't met since then.

[Kat]

I wasn't sure which thread to put this thought, so I picked here.

We only have MH's description of where the suitcase was, she says it was at the mobile home and that she had left it in the driveway packed with decorations?

Why do we assume she is telling the media the truth about the suitcase being there?

I was wondering why the shed was searched. Could the luggage have been stored there? Because Mobile homes don't have a whole lot of storage area do they? I would imagine that the Pastor and his wife have storage that is already being used by their things...so where would MH store her extra's? Just a thought.

[Columbo]

I don't know about the Sunday school itself, but the lessons listed on the webite only go up to February, 2002:

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

Of course, the website itself may not have been updated since that time, for whatever reasons, so that doesn't necessarily prove the classes haven't met since then.

Thanks, Joe! This must be the source of my second-hand information--I'm not sure who posted that there had been no Sunday School since 2002, but they must have gotten their idea from the church website. So maybe it's true, maybe not. As you say, maybe the website was just not up-to-date.

[claudicici]

....i read the last lesson of the sunday school classes and i found it quite interesting.i did not know baptists were so against catholics and do not consider them christian.
do we know what religion sandra was ?

[simlyme]

....i read the last lesson of the sunday school classes and i found it quite interesting.i did not know baptists were so against catholics and do not consider them christian.
do we know what religion sandra was ?

Hi people ,this is my first post,but ,Ive been following from the beginning.

This "church" is Missionary Baptist, Ive been searching a while about this branch of Baptists as I feel religion it is a big factor in this case.

So far I find these people strange, they seem like a very secretive type creature.
To me, a 15-20 member "church" is a cult.:furious:

[Kat]

:balloons: Welcome to websleuths simlyme!

[oceanblueeyes]

....i read the last lesson of the sunday school classes and i found it quite interesting.i did not know baptists were so against catholics and do not consider them christian.
do we know what religion sandra was ?

Missionary Baptist

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi people ,this is my first post,but ,Ive been following from the beginning.

This "church" is Missionary Baptist, Ive been searching a while about this branch of Baptists as I feel religion it is a big factor in this case.

So far I find these people strange, they seem like a very secretive type creature.
To me, a 15-20 member "church" is a cult.:furious:

Welcome Simlyme

Are Missionary Baptist autonomous and each church has its own governing rules?

1: of, relating to, or marked by autonomy
2 a: having the right or power of self-government b: undertaken or carried on without outside control : self-contained <an autonomous school system>
3 a: existing or capable of existing independently <an autonomous zooid> b: responding, reacting, or developing independently of the whole <an autonomous growth>
4: controlled by the autonomic nervous system

I know the Church of Christ is that way.

I am not sure if religion played any part in this case.

It was a small church and Pastor Lawless was getting on up in age. 77 years old if iirc. So he may have retired or semi retired and the congregants that had been a member of that church for over 30 years may have wanted to keep the church open but more as a bible study church.

imo

[JoeFromLB]

Missionary Baptist

Are you sure? I have read that Sandra's family were NOT members of the Clover Road Missionary Baptist Church, and that's the only "Missionary Baptist" church anywhere around there, to my knowledge.
Sandra's uncle, Joe Chavez, is Catholic. Joe is the brother of Maria Chavez, Sandra's mother.

Now whether Sandra was going to some kind of "Bible study" at the church, and the specific details of this Bible study, are open questions.

[claudicici]

...that's what i was suspecting,if sandra was catholic,then mh thought of her as not being christian,maybe just maybe religion could have played a part ?

[SeriouslySearching]

Hi -- I may be getting confused, but I was sure I read among the posts somewhere that Sunday School had been discontinued at Clover Baptist Church. I thought the poster said it was in 2002? I apologize if I have made an erroneous statement....Maybe I read it wrong.

See post # 120. Questions whether a church with hardly any services would have Sun School classes. I know this doesn't prove what I was driving at in my previous post, so I'll keep looking. Maybe the info I saw was on a different thread. Again, I really apologize if I'm wrong because I don't want to start false rumors here...This is what I am talking about...the website had not been updated or used for a very long time...so we don't know the current status of Sunday School sessions or anything else. We can't go by a site that old for information.

[snapdragon]

Are you sure? I have read that Sandra's family were NOT members of the Clover Road Missionary Baptist Church, and that's the only "Missionary Baptist" church anywhere around there, to my knowledge.
Sandra's uncle, Joe Chavez, is Catholic. Joe is the brother of Maria Chavez, Sandra's mother.

Now whether Sandra was going to some kind of "Bible study" at the church, and the specific details of this Bible study, are open questions.

You are correct. It has been stated in the press that Sandra and her family were NOT members or participants in the Clover Road Baptist Church. It was stated that Sandra was supposed to go to bible study the evening she went missing, but it was at a different church. That church was never named.

Tracy has a large number of protestant based churches, ie: christian, non-catholic, non-mormon. Many are non-denominational. Most protestant based churches disagree with mormanism and catholicism. This is because they believe in exactly what the bible says, and worship Jesus as the savior directly. Mormans have an interpretation based on the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith. Catholics worship saints and idols, and have rules made by the Pope. These are the basic reasons most protestant based faiths shun these other religions.

[simlyme]

Missionary Baptist

I dont think Sandra Cantu's family was missionary baptist.

I believe they were Catholic.

[simlyme]

Catholics worship saints and idols, and have rules made by the Pope. These are the basic reasons most protestant based faiths shun these other religions.

I was afraid to enter this discussion for this reason.

Catholics do not worship Saints and idols. They worship God,(Jesus Christ ) as far as Saints, they pray to Saints, a Catholic is a Christian.
Religion is way too contraversial for me to get into. I believe that will be a big reason for that not being brought up in the trial,but, I still believe it has a lot to do with what MH:furious: did to that precious Angel.

[claudicici]

wow,i never was aware that other christians do not consider catholic christians,that's the first i heard that....and yes if mh was fanatically religious maybe that did play a part

[JoeFromLB]

You are correct. It has been stated in the press that Sandra and her family were NOT members or participants in the Clover Road Baptist Church. It was stated that Sandra was supposed to go to bible study the evening she went missing, but it was at a different church. That church was never named.

Tracy has a large number of protestant based churches, ie: christian, non-catholic, non-mormon. Many are non-denominational. Most protestant based churches disagree with mormanism and catholicism. This is because they believe in exactly what the bible says, and worship Jesus as the savior directly. Mormans have an interpretation based on the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith. Catholics worship saints and idols, and have rules made by the Pope. These are the basic reasons most protestant based faiths shun these other religions.

Well, I'm a Catholic, and let me assure you, we most certainly do NOT worship saints or idols. I'll leave it at that, since this is not a religion thread, and I've "been there, done that" too many times to count on other message boards.

But I do enjoy the company of my Websleuth friends, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, or any other denomination.
:)

[Kat]

I was afraid to enter this discussion for this reason.

Catholics do not worship Saints and idols. They worship God,(Jesus Christ ) as far as Saints, they pray to Saints, a Catholic is a Christian.
Religion is way too contraversial for me to get into. I believe that will be a big reason for that not being brought up in the trial,but, I still believe it has a lot to do with what MH:furious: did to that precious Angel.

I respect your opinion and thoughts, simlyme. We all have gut feelings about Sandra's case. Not all of us agree, but that is what makes WS interesting don't you think? I, personally, haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that the motive included a religious facet, but who knows at this point?

O/T I'm 47, I grew up in a predominately catholic neighborhood but was and am not Catholic. I can remember back in the 60's being taught by loving family members that Catholics worship what was stated above, now I know it's not true but it's a common misconception that is still perpetrated.

BTW good morning everyone :)

[oceanblueeyes]

Are you sure? I have read that Sandra's family were NOT members of the Clover Road Missionary Baptist Church, and that's the only "Missionary Baptist" church anywhere around there, to my knowledge.
Sandra's uncle, Joe Chavez, is Catholic. Joe is the brother of Maria Chavez, Sandra's mother.

Now whether Sandra was going to some kind of "Bible study" at the church, and the specific details of this Bible study, are open questions.

Oh, I am sorry, Joe. I guess I misunderstood. I thought someone was wanting to know what kind of church Lawless was a Pastor of.....

I am not sure about Sandra but when her aunt was speaking at the Memorial I got the impression they were Catholic.

Again, sorry for steering anyone wrong about the Missionary Baptist church the Lawless family attends.

imo

[Columbo]

This is what I am talking about...the website had not been updated or used for a very long time...so we don't know the current status of Sunday School sessions or anything else. We can't go by a site that old for information.

Thanks, Seriously Searching.

[Columbo]

I am from Tracy. This is unlikely. The story here locally is that no one seems to know much about the church. There is a Jehovah's witness church across the street, and some of their members were interviewed in the press. They stated that they did not ever really see anyone over there, nor had they spoken to anyone at the Clover rd baptist church. Same thing with neighbors to the church.. no one really saw anyone going there.

Supposedly, they haven't had regular services since 2007. Local papers have cited their congregation at being around 15 in number (I have no idea where that number came from). Local pastors in town have said that Pastor Lawless "isolated" himself from the Tracy church community. He was invited on numerous occasions to local church leaders' socials and never attended.

I am thinking it was a TAX SHELTER.

Hi Snapdragon, is it a fact that they haven't had services since 2007? If so, then I wonder why they would need a Sunday School teacher.

Great thinking! I bet it is a TAX SHELTER! Maybe that's another reason why Pastor Lawless was acting hinky.

[Track292008]

Has anyone here researched the records to determine the listed owner of the property where the Clover Rd. church is located?

If so, I missed it and I'm sorry and hope it can be re-posted here.

If not, can some who is savvy about this type of thing look into it? Also, the taxes paid would be interesting!

Many thanks.

[SeriouslySearching]

LE has obviously checked into the innerworkings of this church to know what is taking place there. If there is something else going on unrelated to Sandra, they already are in a position to stop it.

I imagine they would have spoken with people who attend the church on a regular basis and determined Melissa was a Sunday School teacher before announcing it to the world. At least, I would hope so! They appear to be on top of things in Tracy so at this point, I am trusting they did their homework.

[MCDRAW]

Hi people ,this is my first post,but ,Ive been following from the beginning.

This "church" is Missionary Baptist, Ive been searching a while about this branch of Baptists as I feel religion it is a big factor in this case.

So far I find these people strange, they seem like a very secretive type creature.
To me, a 15-20 member "church" is a cult.:furious:


Ok, I attend a very small church. We are certainly not a cult! There are just not a lot of people that live around the church. I believe you have to look at more than church numbers before you decide it's a cult.

[MCDRAW]

wow,i never was aware that other christians do not consider catholic christians,that's the first i heard that....and yes if mh was fanatically religious maybe that did play a part


That's the first I have heard of it too. In my opinion, if MH was fanatically religious, she wouldn't have been stealing from Target.

[JoeFromLB]

Has anyone here researched the records to determine the listed owner of the property where the Clover Rd. church is located?

If so, I missed it and I'm sorry and hope it can be re-posted here.

If not, can some who is savvy about this type of thing look into it? Also, the taxes paid would be interesting!

Many thanks.

I don't know who owns the church property, but it's not Pastor Lawless.
According to the Tracy Press, the only property he owns in San Joaquin County is his mobile home, and he has owned that since the mid-1960's.

[Columbo]

That's the first I have heard of it too. In my opinion, if MH was fanatically religious, she wouldn't have been stealing from Target.

I totally agree with you, and yet, it's amazing how many so-called religious people do some really terrible things.

[Track292008]

I don't know who owns the church property, but it's not Pastor Lawless.
According to the Tracy Press, the only property he owns in San Joaquin County is his mobile home, and he has owned that since the mid-1960's.

That's a good start on the answer to the question, "Who owns the property where the church is located?" Thanks, Joe!

And it also adds another factor to any discussion of the church in this matter. JMO

[twinkiesmom]

To me, a 15-20 member "church" is a cult.:furious:

No, it's not. There are plenty of tiny churches in this country that are perfectly normal but not very successful (in terms of dollars or attendance). Some just don't recruit new members, and the old members age and die off (as I suspect has happened with Pastor Lawless' congregation). Some are set in their ways....Some don't have a great plan for drawing in new people. Some are led by people who just aren't great ministers but are otherwise nice, decent people. Not everyone is cut out to be a pastor.

[simlyme]

No, it's not. There are plenty of tiny churches in this country that are perfectly normal but not very successful (in terms of dollars or attendance). Some just don't recruit new members, and the old members age and die off (as I suspect has happened with Pastor Lawless' congregation). Some are set in their ways....Some don't have a great plan for drawing in new people. Some are led by people who just aren't great ministers but are otherwise nice, decent people. Not everyone is cut out to be a pastor.

I understand, to each his/her own. But, I still feel this "church" is not a church per se.
If we want to think,loving,caring,respect,nurturing,ETC. about a church,and its members, do we see that in Clover Road missionary Baptist church?

This article and a few others say:
http://cbs13.com/local/sandra.cantu.slaying.2.983211.html

(On Sunday, outside the church after Easter services, Huckaby's relatives described her as a loving mother with a strong religious upbringing.)

Strong religious upbringing? HUH?

Are the Huckabys and Lawless strong religious people? Their demeanor is disgraceful, did they ever help search for Sandra? Best friend of MH daughter and best friend of Lawless grand-daughter. They're all ruthless in my book.

Wouldnt a "church" so close to the home of this missing child put effort into the search.
Im disgusted!:curses:

Lawless religion is all relevant in this case:furious:
Oh, I know the devil made her do it?

PREACH TO THE CHOIR, Milissa Lawless Huckaby:behindbar

[ChristineD]

What I can't figure out is what kind of people have a church service at the probable murder site and have no problem with that? If sociopaths have no feeling for others, maybe there is a tinge of that in more than just MH.

[twinkiesmom]

I understand, to each his/her own.

Show me the evidence, not your rage. You have nothing against any of the family or the church except Melissa.

I don't see Anthony-like behavior here...They seem to be genuinely dumbfounded at the level of depravity accused of MH and are not making excuses for her.

If they had turned her out in the street after her thefts, they would have been accused of being un-Christian.

They seem no different than most other parents of wayward adult children or grandchildren. She hid her true self from them. How many times have we heard from friends, relatives, and neighbors of accused killers "but he was such a nice guy?"

I see no evidence that she wasn't raised to be a devout Christian...not everyone chooses to follow the belief system of their parents.

I see the Easter church service as taking a stand against evil rather than dishonoring Sandra's memory.

MH took advantage of people in her life rather than take responsibility for her life....She took advantage of girls who were loosely supervised. She took advantage of the church which was also unsupervised....If this were a functioning church, there would be meetings happening daily, people working from morning to night, and this crime would not have occurred there.

[JoeFromLB]

I see the Easter church service as taking a stand against evil rather than dishonoring Sandra's memory.

MH took advantage of people in her life rather than take responsibility for her life....She took advantage of girls who were loosely supervised. She took advantage of the church which was also unsupervised....If this were a functioning church, there would be meetings happening daily, people working from morning to night, and this crime would not have occurred there.

This may have been the first service held there in several years, if some of the news reports about the church are accurate.

I personally am inclined to believe there was no Sunday School class at all...no enrollment, no students. Where are the parents of the children supposedly enrolled there? No one has come forward to talk about the Sunday School. Nobody's come forward to identify themselves as a member of the church, except the Pastor and his wife, and of course MH, the "Sunday School teacher".

You're right, if this were a functioning church, there would be people working there, ministries, events, weekly Bible study, regular Sunday services, etc.
From all the reports I've read (and I've done quite a bit of reading here), there is an information vacuum about this church. A big blank spot.
The people at the Jehovah's Witness congregation nearby say they've seen no activity there whatsoever, according to a Tracy Press article.

Looking through their website, it appears they haven't updated it since 2002.
The current home page has nothing but a Bible verse on it. No other links.

Very odd...

[MCDRAW]

This may have been the first service held there in several years, if some of the news reports about the church are accurate.

I personally am inclined to believe there was no Sunday School class at all...no enrollment, no students. Where are the parents of the children supposedly enrolled there? No one has come forward to talk about the Sunday School. Nobody's come forward to identify themselves as a member of the church, except the Pastor and his wife, and of course MH, the "Sunday School teacher".

You're right, if this were a functioning church, there would be people working there, ministries, events, weekly Bible study, regular Sunday services, etc.
From all the reports I've read (and I've done quite a bit of reading here), there is an information vacuum about this church. A big blank spot.
The people at the Jehovah's Witness congregation nearby say they've seen no activity there whatsoever, according to a Tracy Press article.

Looking through their website, it appears they haven't updated it since 2002.
The current home page has nothing but a Bible verse on it. No other links.

Very odd...


I read somewhere on the MH thread, I can't remeber exactly where, but they were talking about MH's Dad's church and that MH had helped in her daughter's class a few times. I wonder if that is not where the "Sunday School Teacher" title came from. Just wondering because you would think people would come out and talk about her being their child's teacher.

[simlyme]

My comments regarding your response in ( )

Show me the evidence, not your rage. You have nothing against any of the family or the church except Melissa.

(The evidence is in the hands of the court now,Rage,no, outraged?yes?. they act like nothing ever happened to anyone. MH lived with them long enough for them to see what she was really like.)

I don't see Anthony-like behavior here...They seem to be genuinely dumbfounded at the level of depravity accused of MH and are not making excuses for her.

( Her Gr.Father may not have made any, but they have definetly stuck to her side so far, is an excellent good mother one that steals,gets arrested ETC,what about her history prior to Sandras murder? Good Christian Sunday school MOTHER?

If they had turned her out in the street after her thefts, they would have been accused of being un-Christian.

(No, NO, called un-christian by whom? Her fellow church members? How about some genuine decipline?MH sounds and looks like someone that had to have it her way most of her life and was given to,by all means I dont blame her totally with where it landed her,she was raised by 2 parents,and then taken in by her Gr parents, you re telling me that they should close their eyes and ears to all of MH's wrong doing? Theyre doing that now.)

They seem no different than most other parents of wayward adult children or grandchildren. She hid her true self from them. How many times have we heard from friends, relatives, and neighbors of accused killers "but he was such a nice guy?"

( I dont know where you live,but you almost make it sound like murder is a common thing, MH has been brewing for some time, can a parent or Gr parent be so much in denial about a "child" like her,I dont think so ,unless that "child" has been away for a while without any contact,MH has been with her GR parents now for at least 8 months,in the same house.)

I see no evidence that she wasn't raised to be a devout Christian...not everyone chooses to follow the belief system of their parents.

( Well maybe your right on the first part,but,wouldnt a "Christian" especially one that saw Sandra every day and was best friends with your daughter or your grand daughter have gone out to search for Sandra and shown a true sadness and heartbreak in learning what really happened to Sandra?)

I see the Easter church service as taking a stand against evil rather than dishonoring Sandra's memory.

( I see it as a way of showing disrespect and false religion.)

MH took advantage of people in her life rather than take responsibility for her life....She took advantage of girls who were loosely supervised. She took advantage of the church which was also unsupervised....If this were a functioning church, there would be meetings happening daily, people working from morning to night, and this crime would not have occurred there.

( WOW! girls who were loosely supervised? unsupervised church? I dont get that? Please explain further):confused:

[ChristineD]

Wow, Simlyme - you gave me a creepy thought - if the cult, er, religion is so anti-Catholic, and Sandra was or was thought to be Catholic (and Catholic equals non-Christian idol worshipper, according to them) ... well maybe that's why they have [seem to have?] such low-grade reactions. If a little girl was likely killed at your own small church site by your own daughter, do you think you might just be devastated instead of holding service there and socializing on that very spot? I still can't get over how audacious that seems.

[passionflower]

Wow, Simlyme - you gave me a creepy thought - if the cult, er, religion is so anti-Catholic, and Sandra was or was thought to be Catholic (and Catholic equals non-Christian idol worshipper, according to them) ... well maybe that's why they have [seem to have?] such low-grade reactions. If a little girl was likely killed at your own small church site by your own daughter, do you think you might just be devastated instead of holding service there and socializing on that very spot? I still can't get over how audacious that seems.

OMG! some religious freaks do think like that!

[MCDRAW]

I understand, to each his/her own. But, I still feel this "church" is not a church per se.
If we want to think,loving,caring,respect,nurturing,ETC. about a church,and its members, do we see that in Clover Road missionary Baptist church?

This article and a few others say:
http://cbs13.com/local/sandra.cantu.slaying.2.983211.html

(On Sunday, outside the church after Easter services, Huckaby's relatives described her as a loving mother with a strong religious upbringing.)

Strong religious upbringing? HUH?

Are the Huckabys and Lawless strong religious people? Their demeanor is disgraceful, did they ever help search for Sandra? Best friend of MH daughter and best friend of Lawless grand-daughter. They're all ruthless in my book.

Wouldnt a "church" so close to the home of this missing child put effort into the search.
Im disgusted!:curses:

Lawless religion is all relevant in this case:furious:
Oh, I know the devil made her do it?

PREACH TO THE CHOIR, Milissa Lawless Huckaby:behindbar


Maybe the FBI asked them not to search. They have been known to do that before.

[MCDRAW]

I totally agree with you, and yet, it's amazing how many so-called religious people do some really terrible things.


Your right. I guess I'm thinking that as a Christian I couldn't do the things MH did and still consider myself a christian.

[snapdragon]

I was afraid to enter this discussion for this reason.

Catholics do not worship Saints and idols. They worship God,(Jesus Christ ) as far as Saints, they pray to Saints, a Catholic is a Christian.
Religion is way too contraversial for me to get into. I believe that will be a big reason for that not being brought up in the trial,but, I still believe it has a lot to do with what MH:furious: did to that precious Angel.
off topic:
Simlyme, you are correct! My bad.. being raised a catholic since birth, I guess I felt like we were worshiping saints! My poor choice of words. Yes, Catholics DO worship God. It is the intercessory prayer that the protestants have issue with. My neighbor who is a Baptist has tried to argue this point to me, because being a Catholic, I also consider myself a Christian.

[simlyme]

This just came back to me:waitasec: On one of the Lane Lawless interviews, he says something to the effect " We hope that we can worship or carry on with our service without interference/ respect and privacy from the media/community"

Anyone know where that interview can be found?

Something like that, any way, WHAT ABOUT THE CANTU FAMILY???
Just think , what kind of Easter they had,what kind of day they'll have for the rest of their lives.

These people(Lawless-Huckaby) are selfish,self serving and ruthless!

[snapdragon]

This just came back to me:waitasec: On one of the Lane Lawless interviews, he says something to the effect " We hope that we can worship or carry on with our service without interference/ respect and privacy from the media/community"

Anyone know where that interview can be found?

Something like that, any way, WHAT ABOUT THE CANTU FAMILY???
Just think , what kind of Easter they had,what kind of day they'll have for the rest of their lives.

These people(Lawless-Huckaby) are selfish,self serving and ruthless!

I heard this in an interview too... but I don't think it was Lane Lawless, I think it was the uncle, Brent? I think was his name. He did make that statement, I did hear it. I cannot find it at present. It was in a television interview.

I agree totally. I cannot believe they decided to have Easter services at the murder site. Especially since the place had hardly been used for services before. Seems like a "family" meeting of sorts.

I feel so sorry for the Chavez/Cantu families. I agree... their Easter must have just been torture. MH is just plain evil and her family seems to be covering for her. I hope she gets the DP.

[passionflower]

IMO MH wasn't following a very religious life.
She conceived her baby out of wedlock......married, divorced.
Went bankrupt, couldn't hold a job.
How did she get money? Just welfare or 'other' as in stealing?
Set 2 fires, threatening letters?
Drugged atleast 2 little girls.
Molested and murdered Sandra Cantu..................
nothing a Christian religion would do......IMO
yet taught Sunday school? devious, evil and no true faith.........IMO

[passionflower]

I heard this in an interview too... but I don't think it was Lane Lawless, I think it was the uncle, Brent? I think was his name. He did make that statement, I did hear it. I cannot find it at present. It was in a television interview.

I agree totally. I cannot believe they decided to have Easter services at the murder site. Especially since the place had hardly been used for services before. Seems like a "family" meeting of sorts.

I feel so sorry for the Chavez/Cantu families. I agree... their Easter must have just been torture. MH is just plain evil and her family seems to be covering for her. I hope she gets the DP.

bolded by me,
I so agree!
Who was at the Easter service?
Was it private, members only?
Was it to get stories correct, make sure certain 'things' were hidden? (pics etc)
No way do I believe this is a place of worship!
I wish LE had the church 'bugged'!

[txsvicki]

Missionary Baptist isn't a cult. They don't have any basic beliefs that are any different from the Southern Baptists which are one of the largest denominations around. Missionary B. just don't believe in joining associations or conventions. Having Easter services at the church didn't seem right to me though. I'm not sure I believe that they never have any services though. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't even meet on the same days as Baptists so I don't see how they would necessarily know for sure.

[simlyme]

I heard this in an interview too... but I don't think it was Lane Lawless, I think it was the uncle, Brent? I think was his name. He did make that statement, I did hear it. I cannot find it at present. It was in a television interview.

I agree totally. I cannot believe they decided to have Easter services at the murder site. Especially since the place had hardly been used for services before. Seems like a "family" meeting of sorts.

I feel so sorry for the Chavez/Cantu families. I agree... their Easter must have just been torture. MH is just plain evil and her family seems to be covering for her. I hope she gets the DP.

I think youre right, it might have been the uncle, still, pretty nervey!
and I agree about 'SUPPOSEDLY" having an Easter service, I dont believe it.It would have been a good idea to bug the place, Im sure lots of talking went on,maybe some cleaning up too.:mad:

[simlyme]

Missionary Baptist isn't a cult. They don't have any basic beliefs that are any different from the Southern Baptists which are one of the largest denominations around. Missionary B. just don't believe in joining associations or conventions. Having Easter services at the church didn't seem right to me though. I'm not sure I believe that they never have any services though. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't even meet on the same days as Baptists so I don't see how they would necessarily know for sure.

Right, Missionary Baptist is a denomination, the sign to that building says Missionary Baptist, do we really know much about the people that congregate in the building?
Weve not been priveledged to know how many Sunday school children MH taught, the church site is as old as the hills, ETC
Im not by any means talking about Missionary Baptists,(the denomination) Im refering to the building and the "worshipors" that are involved with the place.

[oceanblueeyes]

Right, Missionary Baptist is a denomination, the sign to that building says Missionary Baptist, do we really know much about the people that congregate in the building?
Weve not been privileged to know how many Sunday school children MH taught, the church site is as old as the hills, ETC
Im not by any means talking about Missionary Baptists,(the denomination) Im referring to the building and the "worshipors" that are involved with the place.

I am sure if she was even a Sunday school teacher she volunteered like all Sunday school teachers do. I think MH mimics what she thinks will make her appear "normal' and living with a Pastor who was her own grandfather it only seems logical that she would volunteer in her grandfather's church.

From what I have read Melissa Huckaby hasn't lived there that long, maybe 7 or 8 months before the murder of Sandra. We don't even know if she taught children. She could have been a Sunday school teacher for any age group. In fact among her many comments she said her luggage had scrap-booking material in it and many elderly people are really into that. So who really knows.

I don't think there is anything sinister about this church or their congregants expect MH, herself. There has been nothing negative that has come out about the church itself or others who may attend.

I think simply it was limited now due to the ever changing area and as other moved away to other parts of the city and it was easier for them to find a new church elsewhere. I do think that of those who have remained are probably ones that have been members of that church for decades and just did not want to leave.

It was a small community church. And if there were strange going ons there then the media would have long picked up on it. I actually feel sorry for this church. With Pastor Lawless getting way up in his 70s he probably had semi retired but the members still wanted him to be their Pastor. I think the media information is incorrect, which it is known to happen, and there were services still held at the church.

imo

[MCDRAW]

This just came back to me:waitasec: On one of the Lane Lawless interviews, he says something to the effect " We hope that we can worship or carry on with our service without interference/ respect and privacy from the media/community"

Anyone know where that interview can be found?

Something like that, any way, WHAT ABOUT THE CANTU FAMILY???
Just think , what kind of Easter they had,what kind of day they'll have for the rest of their lives.

These people(Lawless-Huckaby) are selfish,self serving and ruthless!


My cousin was killed in a car accident several years ago. It was quick and we were shocked and devestated. I'm fairly certain that the Chavez/Cantu family is in that horrible place of shock, devestation, pain, and are grieving, I doubt that they are worried about what the Lawless family is doing. JMO

[twinkiesmom]

( Her Gr.Father may not have made any, but they have definetly stuck to her side so far, is an excellent good mother one that steals,gets arrested ETC,what about her history prior to Sandras murder? Good Christian Sunday school MOTHER?)

I don't see them lying, making excuses, etc. They claimed the person who did the crimes wasn't the Melissa they knew but did not deny it could have been her...Huge difference.



They seem no different than most other parents of wayward adult children or grandchildren. She hid her true self from them. How many times have we heard from friends, relatives, and neighbors of accused killers "but he was such a nice guy?"

( I dont know where you live,but you almost make it sound like murder is a common thing, )

It has nothing to do with where I live...We read about murder every day on Websleuths...perhaps you need to hang around a while to get the lay of the land?

I see no evidence that she wasn't raised to be a devout Christian...not everyone chooses to follow the belief system of their parents.

( Well maybe your right on the first part,but,wouldnt a "Christian" especially one that saw Sandra every day and was best friends with your daughter or your grand daughter have gone out to search for Sandra and shown a true sadness and heartbreak in learning what really happened to Sandra?)

I don't recall one word in anything I've written that defends Melissa, nor have I said anywhere that I believe her to be a Christian. I believe her upbringing would have given her the opportunity to be a Christian if she had chosen that way. It appears she has not.

I see the Easter church service as taking a stand against evil rather than dishonoring Sandra's memory.

( I see it as a way of showing disrespect and false religion.)

There you go again, convicting the family with no evidence.

MH took advantage of people in her life rather than take responsibility for her life....She took advantage of girls who were loosely supervised. She took advantage of the church which was also unsupervised....If this were a functioning church, there would be meetings happening daily, people working from morning to night, and this crime would not have occurred there.

( WOW! girls who were loosely supervised? unsupervised church? I dont get that? Please explain further) )

When I say loosely supervised, I mean there was no adult keeping track of her whereabouts at all times. I think it's a fair assessment of the situation. And the church was likewise not supervised....If they didn't have office employees, volunteers, meetings on a daily basis, the church was basically vacant most of the time.

[Winnow]

Snippet:
Are the Huckabys and Lawless strong religious people? Their demeanor is disgraceful, did they ever help search for Sandra? Best friend of MH daughter and best friend of Lawless grand-daughter. They're all ruthless in my book.


Before anyone assumes that every Lawless family member is as messed up as Melissa, I think that they should take a look at the following videos.

The following Lawless videos are NOT where they were in the car (that we are so familiar with...)

1. Raw Video: Pastor's Wife Talks About Sandra (4/10/09) - segments that are not included in the video #2.
http://www.ksbw.com/video/19151715/index.html


2. Tracy Pastor, Wife Speak About Sandra Cantu (4/10/09)
In Salinas, the Tracy pastor and his wife talk to KSBW about their relationship with slain 8-year-old Sandra Cantu.
A professionally edited video as shown on TV:
http://www.ksbw.com/video/19153334/index.html


I know that I posted these over on the "Connie Lawless" thread, but I just looked at them again (searching for an answer to a question asked here) and I, for one, do not see deception in Connie's responses (video #1)

[passionflower]

a small church, self appointed pastor, molesting.......what is with all these church/sex?
YIKES!
http://crimesceneinvestigations.blogspot.com/2009/04/acts-ii-pastor-sentenced-on-sex-charges.html

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.kcra.com/news/19266204/detail.html

Sources: FBI Visits 2nd Church In Cantu Case

Lawless, who lives in the mobile home park where Cantu once lived, is Huckaby's grandfather.

He is the pastor of Clover Road Baptist Church, which was searched while Sandra was missing and after Huckaby's arrest.

Sources told KCRA 3 that Lawless was questioned years ago as part of a report of suspected child abuse.

However, both the Asotin County Sheriff's Department and the Clarkston Police Department in Washington said they do not have any records of a criminal case ever being filed.

[passionflower]

Was Lane Lawless a SELF appointed pastor? Just wondering............
and churches usually have a board of directors or a superior over the pastor.
Did his churches have this?

[snapdragon]

Was Lane Lawless a SELF appointed pastor? Just wondering............
and churches usually have a board of directors or a superior over the pastor.
Did his churches have this?

I have no idea about the particulars of Lane Lawless' appointment/board of directors.

But I can tell you that, NO, a church does not necessarily have to have a board of directors, superior, etc. Most do, but it is not required.

A coworker of mine belongs to a church which consists mostly of extended family members. They occasionally take on a "project", ie, a low income, troubled person, but in general, it is just family members. Seems weird to me, but how the next pastor is appointed is that the family elders decide ahead of time, and during a session, a family member gets up and "appoints" the new pastor. These "pastors" have NO education in theology, psychology, or any other discipline.

[txsvicki]

I have the book, Handbook of Denominations. I'm pretty sure this is the church. I didn't think Missionary Baptist joined any associations, but it says:

"Organized at Little Rock, Ark. in 1950 as the North American Baptist Association, this group changed it's name to the Baptist Missionary Association in 1968".

"Churches are completely autonomous in the Baptist tradition and have equal voice in the association, member churches must comform to doctrinal standards of the association".

I don't know who is over the Pastors or if the association could fire him. Surely with the church deacons and with help of the Association something could be done if a pastor were totally out of hand or something.

[simlyme]

I have the book, Handbook of Denominations. I'm pretty sure this is the church. I didn't think Missionary Baptist joined any associations, but it says:

"Organized at Little Rock, Ark. in 1950 as the North American Baptist Association, this group changed it's name to the Baptist Missionary Association in 1968".

"Churches are completely autonomous in the Baptist tradition and have equal voice in the association, member churches must comform to doctrinal standards of the association".

I don't know who is over the Pastors or if the association could fire him. Surely with the church deacons and with help of the Association something could be done if a pastor were totally out of hand or something.


I think with such a small church, what you'll find most of the time is alot of family relations.
If I were to look for a Missionary Baptist church to attend in that area,say as a visitor, the church doesnt make itself too well known or easy to find.
Is it in the yellow pages?
Does it advertise its services in the weekly paper?
Too secretive for my taste.
The two people(men) they interviewed in the bigginig of this case were related to Lane Lawless. Just some points to ponder on.

[Amster]

Looks like rolled up projector screens or window shades.....

[Winnow]

Looks like rolled up projector screens or window shades.....

Bottom video on the left -- sure looks like the infamous window blinds mentioned before as taken from MH's mobile home....

[SeriouslySearching]

Those are definitely rolled window shades. You can clearly see the cords and even the caps on the ends on the second one where the officer lifts them to stick them inside the vehicle. (I am curious to know why the items were not bagged in some way just like the one taken before. It seems like they should have been secured in some manner if they are to be used as evidence against her.)

[LinasK]

Your right. I guess I'm thinking that as a Christian I couldn't do the things MH did and still consider myself a christian.
And yet many people use religion to hide behind their crimes or find God when they are in prison. From personal experience, my first roomate in college would go out and get drunk every single night the first couple of weeks of school. She was Catholic and figured if she went to confession every Sunday, that made it okay to get drunk any other day of the week!:eek::eek::eek:
I'm not bashing Catholics here, just relating personal experience...

[LinasK]

Hi people ,this is my first post,but ,Ive been following from the beginning.

This "church" is Missionary Baptist, Ive been searching a while about this branch of Baptists as I feel religion it is a big factor in this case.

So far I find these people strange, they seem like a very secretive type creature.
To me, a 15-20 member "church" is a cult.:furious:Welcome, and excellent first post! I happen to agree.

[SeriouslySearching]

It would mean my original church would be considered a "cult" because of their tiny congregation (25-35 on any given Sunday)!! Of course, the town only has about 700 people, 9 churches, and 4 bars last time I checked. (Good thing the bars aren't open on Sunday is all I can say. :crazy:)

[LinasK]

It would mean my original church would be considered a "cult" because of their tiny congregation (25-35 on any given Sunday)!! Of course, the town only has about 700 people, 9 churches, and 4 bars last time I checked. (Good thing the bars aren't open on Sunday is all I can say. :crazy:)
Okay SS, granted, but it means your church in your "tiny" town is active every week, not sporadically like Clover Road Baptist and Tracy has a population of way more than 700 people- no cows included! It's a large agricultural area located right off of a major freeway and in between major freeways. I580/205 and I5 are major highway arteries in Northern California. Even people who live a little farther away like myself, travel those routes when headed to/from L.A., Stockton, and Sacramento. I also used to drive 1-2x/year to Tracy to shop at the outlet stores, and I drove an hour by myself each way through the mountain pass at night in blinding rain that route just to hear Bill Clinton campaign for my congressman.
There are also lots of people that work in San Francisco and commute to live in Tracy because housing is far cheaper there...
My point is that there are many other and bigger churches than Clover Road Baptist in Tracy. So why join it???

[ChristineD]

I'm confused. Didn't we read reports from neighbors of the church who said they seldom saw anyone at the church? Now, I could make up some stuff like, let's create a church - you donate to me, a legal tax write-off and I'll give you half your money back, or, let's put the house, the car and other things under the name of the Church...

Also, the Internet Archive shows no changes in the Church's web site since about April 22, 2003 ... for example, go ahead and compare the "sunday school" page from 2003 to today:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422201402/http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm
and
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

It's not like this place is so busy they can't update their web site for 6 years, is it? But they sure can demonstrate a web site to show legitimacy if audited by the IRS :rolleyes:

[LinasK]

I'm confused. Didn't we read reports from neighbors of the church who said they seldom saw anyone at the church? Now, I could make up some stuff like, let's create a church - you donate to me, a legal tax write-off and I'll give you half your money back, or, let's put the house, the car and other things under the name of the Church...

Also, the Internet Archive shows no changes in the Church's web site since about April 22, 2003 ... for example, go ahead and compare the "sunday school" page from 2003 to today:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422201402/http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm
and
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

It's not like this place is so busy they can't update their web site for 6 years, is it? But they sure can demonstrate a web site to show legitimacy if audited by the IRS :rolleyes:Excellent points, and Welcome to WS!:clap::clap::clap:

[SeriouslySearching]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.

[LinasK]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.
Except that people without vehicles would be the ones from Orchard Estates as that is the only permanent housing withing walking distance- I'm not counting Microtel residents, and IIRC, there weren't many of them who were members. The ones who don't want to belong to a large group/ have different beliefs- to me could fit a pedo cover. Just saying...

[SeriouslySearching]

There are NO other suspects in this case. For anyone to jump into saying the church is a pedo cover would mean that LE is blind to it after this investigation. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't uncover something if it were the case. They must have talked to the people who attend anything going on with the church and ruled them out in Sandra's abduction, rape, and murder.

[ChristineD]

There are NO other suspects in this case. For anyone to jump into saying the church is a pedo cover would mean that LE is blind to it after this investigation. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't uncover something if it were the case. They must have talked to the people who attend anything going on with the church and ruled them out in Sandra's abduction, rape, and murder.

Yes... but read the article from the Tracy Press
"Several Tracy pastors said they don’t know that much about Lawless; he doesn’t join the 15 or 20 other pastors in town for Thursday prayer breakfasts...No one in the neighborhood surrounding Orchard Estates said they attend the Baptist church .... About a dozen neighbors said they don’t know anyone who does and that it has a tiny congregation...Folks from a Jehovah’s Witness church across the street from Clover Road Baptist said they've never talked to anyone from the congregation. Pastors, members and elders of a handful of other churches in northern Tracy said the same thing."
http://www.tracypress.com/printer_friendly/2261962

[xTiffanyTerror]

I seriously got hit with a wave of nausea reading that. :eek:

It goes with what I have thought all along though. I believe that this is a family wide problem of sex abuse, starting with the good old pastor. I think that he abused MH, or possibly her father who abused her. I had suspicions that maybe the pastor stays out of it in the way of physical evidence by having MH commit the crimes as he films/watches. Sick I know but that is the way things are looking to me. Plus depending on how late into adulthood she was abused, he could still have a very powerful hold over her psychologically. Granted none of this is proven, its just a hunch. I feel like this family/the pastor uses the church as a cover for far more sinister things, which is just awful. Though I did find it slightly odd that the LE allowed the church to be used again considering they are still gathering evidence. Even though it didn't appear to have fingerprints etc....the pastor could have still removed things etc. Just a thought.

With the addition of this other family member arrested and the police poking around in other states.....I have a feeling the **** is about to hit the fan. I hope it is sooner rather than later so this family/families? can get some justice.

Q - I read the stuff about the family member so quickly I didn't notice if it mentioned his relationship to MH and the pastor?

[txsvicki]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.

I agree. The Missionary Baptist Church in my town, where my Aunt was a member is small, very respectable, and has been on the corner of a very busy street for probably 50 years and they never had to build a bigger fancier building in the newer part of town. People whose family were in this Baptist branch might move to town and want to join, but most go to Southern Baptist where they have more social things going on and are much bigger. And when I visited Vacation Bible School and some Sundays as a kid, most of her in town inlaws were members and I imagine other families also. Heck, the Funadamentalist Baptist I was a member of had most of Buddy Holly's family attending there. It's not a cult.

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes... but read the article from the Tracy Press
"Several Tracy pastors said they don’t know that much about Lawless; he doesn’t join the 15 or 20 other pastors in town for Thursday prayer breakfasts...No one in the neighborhood surrounding Orchard Estates said they attend the Baptist church .... About a dozen neighbors said they don’t know anyone who does and that it has a tiny congregation...Folks from a Jehovah’s Witness church across the street from Clover Road Baptist said they've never talked to anyone from the congregation. Pastors, members and elders of a handful of other churches in northern Tracy said the same thing."
http://www.tracypress.com/printer_friendly/2261962I have read it. It doesn't convince me that there are not people who go to that church. It doesn't convince me they are suspect in a pedo ring because someone said they have never talked to the members, the pastor doesn't hang out with the other pastors in town, or that people haven't stepped forward to make themselves fodder for the media by admitting they attend the little church.

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree. The Missionary Baptist Church in my town, where my Aunt was a member is small, very respectable, and has been on the corner of a very busy street for probably 50 years and they never had to build a bigger fancier building in the newer part of town. People whose family were in this Baptist branch might move to town and want to join, but most go to Southern Baptist where they have more social things going on and are much bigger. And when I visited Vacation Bible School and some Sundays as a kid, most of her in town inlaws were members and I imagine other families also. Heck, the Fundamentalist Baptist I was a member of had most of Buddy Holly's family attending there. It's not a cult.

Exactly. They are not the type of church that is all showy and fancy. This church seems typical of many Missionary Baptist churches.

They certainly aren't a cult.

imo

[ChristineD]

I have read it. It doesn't convince me that there are not people who go to that church. It doesn't convince me they are suspect in a pedo ring because someone said they have never talked to the members, the pastor doesn't hang out with the other pastors in town, or that people haven't stepped forward to make themselves fodder for the media by admitting they attend the little church.

Not disagreeing with you, Seriously. In fact I am leaning toward tax shelter, not pedo ring. There was another report that I did not quote that said neighbors said they seldom saw anyone around the premises.

[LinasK]

Why couldn't it be both- tax shelter and pedo membership? Why does it have to be one or the other???

[oceanblueeyes]

Not disagreeing with you, Seriously. In fact I am leaning toward tax shelter, not pedo ring. There was another report that I did not quote that said neighbors said they seldom saw anyone around the premises.

I don't think there is anything odd about not getting with the other Pastors in the area either. Iirc, MB are independent churches who are autonomous and each church has their own belief system.

I believe they have members that have been members there for decades and most likely those members still live close by the church. The membership has probably shrunk since others have moved away as Tracy has grown. I would think the church had long been paid for and the members made sure Pastor Lawless still got his pay and that they had enough money to keep it up and running.

The members they do have could have quite a bit of money and tithe faithfully.

I wouldn't think it would take much money to keep the church open.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

Why couldn't it be both- tax shelter and pedo membership? Why does it have to be one or the other???

Imo, there hasnt been any evidence that a pedo ring exists at this church.

No arrest.

Also is anyone here local?

Here's a summary of what KCRA said on the 6pm news:

CLL was never the primary focus of the FBI investigation of the church in Clarkston, WA.

The FBI was more interested in the prior pastor of the church, Dale Johnson, who may be known by CLL.

There is no record that CLL ever regularly attended the church in Clarkston, WA.


I think we are being fed erroneous information where the media are not verifying their stories and just want to be the first out there to throw the trashloid stuff in the mix.

Last night I read that the police said they had no record of any abuse allegation ever being made against Pastor Lawless. It has morphed today into saying that officials said there were no arrest or conviction. That is not what was said yesterday (LE has no record of abuse allegations being filed against CLL.)

It sickens me when the media does this and they hardly ever come back and right their wrong misinformation.

Supposedly the other guy arrested is not kin to MH and that is a rumor swirling too.

imo

[oceanblueeyes]

I found the link.

http://www.kcra.com/news/19269800/detail.html

Creutzberg said he was unsure if FBI agents visited First Church of God in relation to the earlier investigation or the Cantu case.

After going through records, Creutzberg said he couldn’t find any evidence that Lawless ever regularly attended the church.

Instead of Lawless, Creutzberg said the FBI was more interested in talking with a former pastor named Dale Johnson.

"He just left town, and we never heard from him again," Clarkson resident Pamela Verges said.

[xTiffanyTerror]

I just wanted to add a note since I see some people debating whether or not any church goers are involved in a pedo ring.

I myself said I believe the church is a cover for criminal behavior, along the lines of sexually abusing children. I don't believe however that any people outside the family that may attend the church are in on it. I just wanted to clarify that. I think there is history of sex abuse in the pastors family and I think that is what they use the church for when there are no services. That being said, I did see several interviews with people who live near the church who said there is hardly any people that attend. :waitasec: In all honesty if there ARE people outside the family who attend, I feel sorry for them having been in/around the church where something heinous may have happened to Sandra.

[Francine]

Didn't Sandra say that she and her sister were going to go to the church and to see a movie? I had thought these were separate, but perhaps the movies were being shown in the church? Maybe MH was luring young children over there by telling them they could see a kid's movie on the projector screen? Then she would give them drinks which had drugs of some sort in them? The projector screen was taken as evidence by the FBI.

[breanna]

Okay. I learned a great lesson today in self control when I didn't post on the thread about the other Lawless guy arrest. I had a feeling something wasn't right there.

BUT....I am still very curious as to why the FBI is continuing to question people at Pastor Lawless's previous churches. Why are they doing that? What's the point? It makes no sense. Wouldn't Melissa have just been a baby when he was at those churches? So it couldn't be her abusing someone that they are wondering about, right? Or was she the supposedly abused child?

Has Melissa talked and said something to LE? Has she said who abused her, if anyone?

This is so confusing. It's like a milk shake brain freeze.

I'm just not getting it.

[passionflower]

new info on church/cult

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/shocking-new-details-emerge-from-sandra-cantu-case_100190783.html

[Nonni Brenda]

Exactly. They are not the type of church that is all showy and fancy. This church seems typical of many Missionary Baptist churches.

They certainly aren't a cult.

imo

Maybe they are just humble people. Just saying, Jesus was humble.:blowkiss: Nonnie Brenda

[Wannabesleuth]

I had to leave the forum for a few weeks as I had a frightening dream Melissa H. was looking through my window and then my 8 yr. old grandson, who lives down a few houses from me went missing. It was horrible and I realized I was too consumed with this case. Stepping back was a good thing for me. I've had lots of new developments to catch up on. To you seasoned websleuthers, is this common? To get so wrapped up in the horribleness it envades your dreams?