Clifford Lane Lawless

[momtective]

Former Salinas pastor questioned in Tracy girl's death

Pastor Clifford Lane Lawless, 77, was questioned for three hours while his home and church, Clover Road Baptist Church in Tracy, were searched on Tuesday concerning the disappearance and death of Sandra Cantu.

http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20090408/NEWS01/904080301

Alias’ for the preacher man
Clane Lawless
Clifford L Lawless
Clifford Lane Lawless
Cliford L Lawless
Lane C Lawless
Lane P Lawless
Clifford L Alwless
Former residences of the preacher man
Tracy , CA
Livermore , CA
Hawthorne , CA
San Jose , CA
Milpitas , CA

[Disguiseduser0308]

:eek: That's a lot of aliases' for a Pastor.

[frankieiiiieee]

momtective, when u searched under his previous residences, does it say how long he stayed in each area it seems like a lot of moving for a pretty stationary career such as a pastor. A lot of moving around could mean he's gotten into trouble before maybe? Am I looking too far into this?

[momtective]

Investigators closely questioned Pastor Lane Lawless of the Clover Road Baptist Church this week, seized a phone and computers from his residence in the mobile home park and combed through the church for evidence all day Tuesday. But they have not named him as a suspect, and the 77-year-old Lawless said Tuesday he had nothing to do with the girl's killing.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/08/BA1116V89C.DTL&tsp=1

[momtective]

momtective, when u searched under his previous residences, does it say how long he stayed in each area it seems like a lot of moving for a pretty stationary career such as a pastor. A lot of moving around could mean he's gotten into trouble before maybe? Am I looking too far into this?

It does seem like a lot of residences for a Pastor. I'm wondering if he was "called" by the congregation or if he was appointed. I'm also wondering what other churches he may have served at.

[frankieiiiieee]

Of course! I'd like to know what his congregation thought of him too in previous churches. It was my understanding the preachers stick to one church for years but idk as im not one lol and don't know any personally. Wonder if he has a criminal background?

[Cubby]

While searching for info on the preacher I found he purchased his current MH back in Nov of 1992. (Per netdetective). I think the alias's appear because he uses his middle name rather than his first name.

jmo

[passionflower]

Any missing little girls in the cities he was in?
from years past?
Just wondering if he has a bad habit?
Also he was SAVED (I have to look again for the date)
What did he do before he preached?
Does he have a record from before he was SAVED?
What churches was he with before he came to Tracy?

[FishingFunnyFrog]

Of course! I'd like to know what his congregation thought of him too in previous churches. It was my understanding the preachers stick to one church for years but idk as im not one lol and don't know any personally. Wonder if he has a criminal background?

He has been at this church in Tracy for almost 30 years...since 1981. That seems like a really long time.

[Disguiseduser0308]

I'm not sure how it works in a baptist church. But I know for certain in Methodist they are assigned. We had a wonderful pastor for say about 8 years, and suddenly he was reassigned to a town about two hours away. Had no say in the matter either, it was his time to move to a new congregation.

[Cubby]

This is just a thought, but **if** and that is an if, he has a history of indecency with minors others who he has victimized will come forward, even if not publicly.

jmo

[dellemma]

Here's his Bio....

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Pastor Lane Lawless was saved in Wenatchee, Washington, In April of 1960. He was baptized July 9, 1960 by the authority of the Eastside Missionary Baptist Church of East Wenatchee. Elder A.A. Harris administered the ordinance. He was called to the ministry on April 6, 1971 and ordained August 20, 1971 by the Winton MBC.

Pastor Lawless received his theological education from the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Baptist Theological Seminary of Hayward. He also studied under the tutelage of Eld. A.A. Harris.

The churches Elder Lawless has pastored are Beacon MBC of Redding and Grace MBC of Gardena. In 1975, he was sent out by Salinas MBC to do mission work in Eureka. He then pastured Sovereign Grace MBC of Mountain View, and has been pastor at the Clover Road Baptist Church since 1981.

Pastor Lawless' wife, Connie, is the daughter of A.A. and Irene Harris. They were married by Eld. Harris on July 9, 1960 in Modesto, CA. They have three grown children Brian, Brett, and Joni, who are all involved in God's work, and nine beloved grandchildren.

[frankieiiiieee]

He has been at this church in Tracy for almost 30 years...since 1981. That seems like a really long time.

ur right that is a long time, i wasn't sure how long he was there thanks:blowkiss:

[momtective]

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html
Pastor Lane Lawless was saved in Wenatchee, Washington, In April of 1960. He was baptized July 9, 1960 by the authority of the Eastside Missionary Baptist Church of East Wenatchee. Elder A.A. Harris administered the ordinance. He was called to the ministry on April 6, 1971 and ordained August 20, 1971 by the Winton MBC.

Pastor Lane Lawless was saved in Wenatchee, Washington, In April of 1960. He was baptized July 9, 1960 by the authority of the Eastside Missionary Baptist Church of East Wenatchee. Elder A.A. Harris administered the ordinance. He was called to the ministry on April 6, 1971 and ordained August 20, 1971 by the Winton MBC.

Pastor Lawless received his theological education from the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Baptist Theological Seminary of Hayward. He also studied under the tutelage of Eld. A.A. Harris.

The churches Elder Lawless has pastored are Beacon MBC of Redding and Grace MBC of Gardena. In 1975, he was sent out by Salinas MBC to do mission work in Eureka. He then pastured Sovereign Grace MBC of Mountain View, and has been pastor at the Clover Road Baptist Church since 1981.

Pastor Lawless' wife, Connie, is the daughter of A.A. and Irene Harris. They were married by Eld. Harris on July 9, 1960 in Modesto, CA. They have three grown children Brian, Brett, and Joni, who are all involved in God's work, and nine beloved grandchildren.

[momtective]

This name is also associated with Lawless
B A Lawless
http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/ala/newsearch?&searchLName=Lawless&searchState=CA&searchCity=San%20Jose&adID=6196004071&adsource=9&TID=0&cid=people&searchtab=people

[Sunburst70791]

http://www.kcba.com/Global/story.asp?S=10148146

Interesting short interview with Pastor Harris, Connie Lawless' brother....and apparent member of the same church maybe?


Edited to Add: Is THIS the right thread for this?? I'll remove if not....thanks :-)

[FishingFunnyFrog]

This name is also associated with Lawless
B A Lawless
http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/ala/newsearch?&searchLName=Lawless&searchState=CA&searchCity=San%20Jose&adID=6196004071&adsource=9&TID=0&cid=people&searchtab=people

That is one of his sons.

[marla]

Former Salinas pastor questioned in Tracy girl's death

Pastor Clifford Lane Lawless, 77, was questioned for three hours while his home and church, Clover Road Baptist Church in Tracy, were searched on Tuesday concerning the disappearance and death of Sandra Cantu.

http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20090408/NEWS01/904080301

Alias’ for the preacher man
Clane Lawless
Clifford L Lawless
Clifford Lane Lawless
Cliford L Lawless
Lane C Lawless
Lane P Lawless
Clifford L Alwless
Former residences of the preacher man
Tracy , CA
Livermore , CA
Hawthorne , CA
San Jose , CA
Milpitas , CA


Why would a Pastor have so may alias'? :waitasec:
Weird ..

[chicagofa13]

I think they are misspellings and use of middle initial and middle name more so than any alias. Anytime your name is misspelled or you use just a middle initial and it gets attached to your SSN it will follow you around. This man uses his middle name as a first name (quite common), which also creates variations.

I have seen a few variations on my name, and trust me, I'm not using an alias!

[scandi]

Posted on the wrong thread. I'll go find the post I was responding to:

" Originally Posted by scandi View Post
thanks Groovytown, That is very interesting as we have . . . .

http://www.kcba.com/Global/story.asp?S=10148146



Local Connection to Sandra Cantu (Salinas, CA)
"He says he is really upset they have been in the house three or four times and he says we're cooperating with them."

Pastor Harris says that his sister Connie has a heart condition and that the interrogation has been extremely hard on the couple.

The police came down ten o' clock last night got him out of bed took him down to the police station interrogated him until two o' clock this morning."


[B]So Sorry I didn't see the name Pastor Harris. Didn't know who he was till just now. I thought they meant Pastor Lawless.

[Kat]

I can't say that I know a lot about Preachers but my Grandfather was a Preacher and he traveled before he got his own congregation.

[chicagofa13]

Posted on the wrong thread. I'll go find the post I was responding to:

" Originally Posted by scandi View Post
thanks Groovytown, That is very interesting as we have only heard of Connie referred to as his wife up to this point! WOW That puts a whole different tone on the pastor for me as to the possibilities . . . . . . . xox

I think this is going to cause some confusion, I know what post you are talking about!

Pastor Harris is Connie L's brother. Pastor Lawless and Connie are the husband/wife.

[TripleA]

I agree that those are not "aliases" in the criminal connotation, they are misspellings that are picked up and listed by creditors, utility companies, etc. My list looks like that as well because many times I use my first and middle initials with my last name instead of my whole name. My first and middle initials are A.L. which people misconstrue as a man's name "Al", which then links me to many people who are related to an "Al" with my same last name. lol

[SeekingJana]

Here's his Bio....

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Pastor Lane Lawless was saved in Wenatchee, Washington, In April of 1960. He was baptized July 9, 1960 by the authority of the Eastside Missionary Baptist Church of East Wenatchee. Elder A.A. Harris administered the ordinance. He was called to the ministry on April 6, 1971 and ordained August 20, 1971 by the Winton MBC.

Pastor Lawless received his theological education from the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Baptist Theological Seminary of Hayward. He also studied under the tutelage of Eld. A.A. Harris.

The churches Elder Lawless has pastored are Beacon MBC of Redding and Grace MBC of Gardena. In 1975, he was sent out by Salinas MBC to do mission work in Eureka. He then pastured Sovereign Grace MBC of Mountain View, and has been pastor at the Clover Road Baptist Church since 1981.

Pastor Lawless' wife, Connie, is the daughter of A.A. and Irene Harris. They were married by Eld. Harris on July 9, 1960 in Modesto, CA. They have three grown children Brian, Brett, and Joni, who are all involved in God's work, and nine beloved grandchildren.

Bolded added by me.
Hmm. Unusual amount of detail about the Harris family involvement with pastor Lawless, who probably wouldn't BE a Baptist pastor if not for his courting Harris's daughter.
He was apparently dating Connie Harris, a Baptist minister's daughter, and was baptized into their Baptist faith the day of their wedding.
He was baptized by his father in law, who also married them, and who also appears to have been the prime source of whatever theological study this man has had.
Maybe this is the way some faiths operate, but it looks like this guy may have ridden Harris's coattails into a job as a pastor.

I would like to know what he was doing prior to 1960, and like someone else said, if there are old unsolved child disappearances or murders with a similar M. O. in his former areas of residence. ( 5 mile radius, not entire city) for every year of his adult life.

I read a statement tonight from the FBI which says this was a " disorganized" crime, that not much intelligence was shown.
I'm not sure if they are referring to the matter of the suitcase's previous owner, the method/ cause of death, the proximity to a primary crime scene, multiple factors, or what.

Does anyone know why this particular irrigation/ drainage pond happened to be drained when it was? I can't find a statement that LE asked for it to be drained. The news reports make it sound like the pond was drained and the suitcase with Sandra's body was found incidentally. Is this correct?

If so, I wonder who owns the land where the pond is located and why they chose to drain the pond at that time, if declared to be incidental.

[Kat]

http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20090408/NEWS01/904080301

April 8, 2009 ( 2 page article)

Snipped:

...According to Lawless, he lived in Salinas in the early 1980s, and now lives in Space 57 at Orchard Estates Mobile Home Park ...

...Lawless said he lived in Salinas for about a year while receiving his theological education from the Alisal Baptist Institute Theological Seminary. Lawless said he also lived in Livermore and made the one-and-a-half hour commute to Salinas when he taught and preached at the institute...

...Pastor Arthur Harris of the Alisal Baptist Church said the institute is still around but hasn't had any students or staff for a couple of years.

Harris, now the dean of the institute, described the institute as more of a Bible school as opposed to a liberal arts department. Harris confirmed Lawless received a bachelor's degree in religious studies at the institute.

[LinasK]

Does anyone know why this particular irrigation/ drainage pond happened to be drained when it was? I can't find a statement that LE asked for it to be drained. The news reports make it sound like the pond was drained and the suitcase with Sandra's body was found incidentally. Is this correct?

If so, I wonder who owns the land where the pond is located and why they chose to drain the pond at that time, if declared to be incidental.
Yes, it was reported to be an irrigation pond on a dairy farm owned by Ann Silva, scheduled to be drained. Had been previously searched by LE two weeks prior...

[TripleA]

My BIL's father is a Methodist minister and he has been moved at least five times since I met him in 1994.

http://www.ellisonresearch.com/ERPS%20II/release_18_jobs.htm

Study shows why Protestant clergy change jobs

(Original release date: September 7, 2005) Research results being released for the first time in the September/October edition of Facts & Trends magazine show that it’s more common for a pastor to take a job at a different church due to getting a promotion than it is for a pastor to move to a new church because of feeling God’s call or leading.

The study, conducted by Ellison Research (Phoenix, Ariz.) among a representative sample of 872 Protestant church ministers nationwide, explored the job situations of ministers in the United States.

The average American minister has held a paid job in ministry for 19 years, and has spent an average of 15.6 of those years as a senior pastor of one or more churches. The average minister has been the senior pastor of his or her current church for 7.7 years.

Ministers at larger churches tended to have a longer tenure – an average of 8.7 years in their current position, compared to 7.2 years among small churches.

The typical minister has been the senior pastor at three different churches during his/her career. Thirty-one percent are in their first position as a senior pastor, 24% have pastored two churches, 16% have been with three churches, and 29% have been with four or more churches.

Among pastors who are part of a denomination, 19% are assigned to positions by their denomination, while 81% are free to choose their own job. Denominational assignments are most prevalent within the Methodist tradition, although not exclusive to Methodist churches.

Being assigned to jobs has a strong influence on how long pastors stay in one position. The average length of time with their current church is 8.2 years among those who are free to select their own job, but only 4.9 years among those who are assigned to a church.

[Kat]

http://www.graceredondo.com/history.html

Grace Missionary Baptist

Pastors:

Lane Lawless 1973-1974

[SeekingJana]

Lina's K, do you believe the pond was drained " incidentally"? I'm wondering if the FBI suggested it.. Again, going to the comment today that this was a " disorganized crime".
I believe they have a good psych. profile of the killer to release that info.

Any known connection between Ann Silva and the Lawless family or Sandra's family?

[LinasK]

Lina's K, do you believe the pond was drained " incidentally"? I'm wondering if the FBI suggested it.. Again, going to the comment today that this was a " disorganized crime".
I believe they have a good psych. profile of the killer to release that info.

Any known connection between Ann Silva and the Lawless family or Sandra's family?
No, from what I read, it was routine for these ponds to be drained every two-three weeks. Something about mixing up fertilizer chemicals. I still don't even know the name of the dairy.
But... I know somebody who has two sisters that live in Tracy, and she thinks the perp wanted Sandra to be found.

[SeekingJana]

The Baptists ( at least main stream Baptists) work off a different system. They say a pastor is " called to serve" at their church by God. Then he gets " called" to go elsewhere by God in a few years, usually ( and usually for a lot more money at a larger church, nicer parsonage, benefits, etc).

Under this system, the resident pastor either retires, goes to mission work, or more likely, goes on to a larger ( better paying) church.
Then a volunteer nominating committee is chosen from a group of active church members who start looking for a new pastor. They go visit churches unannounced and " scope out" the preacher. Usually they have a list of candidates for the vacant job before hand.

The person "chosen" to " serve" is usually chosen based upon the fact that he will relocate to the area, likes the perks with the job, and accepts the salary.

I know this because both of my parents were on nominating committees for their large Baptist church all the years I lived in their home.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I think this is going to cause some confusion, I know what post you are talking about!

Pastor Harris is Connie L's brother. Pastor Lawless and Connie are the husband/wife.

And Connie's son-in-law is also a pastor! :crazy:

[scandi]

I think this is going to cause some confusion, I know what post you are talking about!

Pastor Harris is Connie L's brother. Pastor Lawless and Connie are the husband/wife.


Yea, I wish I had a big red faced Smilie right now. LOL Can't believe I missed the name Harris, but didn't even know that the pastor's wife had a brother who is a pastor too! :crazy: lol

[smart blonde]

While searching for info on the preacher I found he purchased his current MH back in Nov of 1992. (Per netdetective). I think the alias's appear because he uses his middle name rather than his first name.

jmo

I think they are misspellings and use of middle initial and middle name more so than any alias. Anytime your name is misspelled or you use just a middle initial and it gets attached to your SSN it will follow you around. This man uses his middle name as a first name (quite common), which also creates variations.

I have seen a few variations on my name, and trust me, I'm not using an alias!
I agree with the above explanations.

I think too much is being made of his 'alias''...
As an example, my father passed away a year ago at age 70.
He had, from birth, been called by his middle name...

Believe me... this is a VERY common problem for people who 'go by' their middle names.

[elepher50]

Fellow sleuthers: Do any of you know what L Lawless was doing for a living prior to being saved and baptized in 1960?
Assuming his birthdate is 1932, he was around 28 years old when he was ordained.
He started at the Clover Baptist Church in 1981, do we have any idea where he was between 1971 and 1981?

My apologies if the answers are already in this thread somewhere .....

[gibby207]

Fellow sleuthers: Do any of you know what L Lawless was doing for a living prior to being saved and baptized in 1960?
Assuming his birthdate is 1932, he was around 28 years old when he was ordained.
He started at the Clover Baptist Church in 1981, do we have any idea where he was between 1971 and 1981?

My apologies if the answers are already in this thread somewhere .....

Thank you for having this thread and bringing up these points! It seems on the discussion thread no one wanted to talk about this man.....

Elepher...I have been searching and searching, and nothing seems to come up for him until California, although it said in his bio that he was "saved" in Wenatchee, WA. So, being from WA, I started sleuthing. It got me nowhere. I'm thinking another alias based on what I've seen so far. I searched under the man who baptized him, and he's from Omak, WA, and he has more than 1 alias as well. Now, I didn't want to bring this up before tonight, but I will tell you why the town Wenatchee made my ears perk up:

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/

Research the Wenatchee sex ring and you will see. Pertinent is that once sexual allegations were made, there was a snowball effect, but one would have to imagine that there was sexual misconduct in Wenatchee. It is stated that sex offenders in Wenatchee outnumber citizens 764 to 1. I'm heavily looking into this Tracy 60, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not implicating anyone here, but the word "Wenatchee" and the fact that I can't trace him there makes me uber suspicious.

[Kat]

C. L. Lawless

Born 1932 (?)
Was saved in April 1960 Wenatchee, Washington.
Married on July 9, 1960 in Modesto, CA
Called to the ministry on April 6, 1971
Ordained August 20, 1971
Pastor of Grace Missionary Baptist 1973-1974
In 1975, he was sent out by Salinas MBC to do mission work in Eureka CA
According to Lawless, he lived in Salinas CA in the early 1980s
Pastor at the Clover Road Baptist Church since 1981


That's all I have so far Elepher50.

[SeekingJana]

Fellow sleuthers: Do any of you know what L Lawless was doing for a living prior to being saved and baptized in 1960?
Assuming his birthdate is 1932, he was around 28 years old when he was ordained.
He started at the Clover Baptist Church in 1981, do we have any idea where he was between 1971 and 1981?

My apologies if the answers are already in this thread somewhere .....

Some of the answers are in his bio:
"He was called to the ministry on April 6, 1971 and ordained August 20, 1971 by the Winton MBC. "

Note- I assume this means that Lawless was ordained at the Winton Missionary Baptist Church in a ceremony type thing of laying on of hands, etc, but no dates are given regarding the following churches:

"The churches Elder Lawless has pastored are Beacon MBC of Redding and Grace MBC of Gardena. In 1975, he was sent out by Salinas MBC to do mission work in Eureka. He then pastured Sovereign Grace MBC of Mountain View, and has been pastor at the Clover Road Baptist Church since 1981."

Places and dates would be:

1) Beacon Missionary Baptist Church in Redding, CA in the early 70's ( 1971- pre-1975)
2) Then he went to Grace Missionary Baptist Church in Gardenia, CA, also prior to 1975.

3) In 1975, he served as a local field missionary in Eureka, CA, out of a Salinas CA, Baptist Church. Length of time in the mission field unspecified. He probably did some traveling in the Salinas CA- Eureka, CA area ( 1975- to ?).

4) After the mission work but prior to 1981, he was the pastor at the Mountain View, CA church of Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptist Church.

5) Current church/ location 1981- 2009.

[wfgodot]

I agree with the above explanations.

I think too much is being made of his 'alias''...
As an example, my father passed away a year ago at age 70.
He had, from birth, been called by his middle name...

Believe me... this is a VERY common problem for people who 'go by' their middle names.

Exactly. There are no aliases there. They're all either misspellings, or typos, or listing him by his given-middle, instead of his given, name. An "alias" almost always involves someone changing his or her surname. As for the moves, those are normal for a pastor.

It is quite risky to believe internet identity-searches; for example, I'm listed on one as having SEVEN different addresses in a town in which I lived a year, and at which I had one address.

[SeekingJana]

Thank you for having this thread and bringing up these points! It seems on the discussion thread no one wanted to talk about this man.....

Elepher...I have been searching and searching, and nothing seems to come up for him until California, although it said in his bio that he was "saved" in Wenatchee, WA. So, being from WA, I started sleuthing. It got me nowhere. I'm thinking another alias based on what I've seen so far. I searched under the man who baptized him, and he's from Omak, WA, and he has more than 1 alias as well. Now, I didn't want to bring this up before tonight, but I will tell you why the town Wenatchee made my ears perk up:

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/

Research the Wenatchee sex ring and you will see. Pertinent is that once sexual allegations were made, there was a snowball effect, but one would have to imagine that there was sexual misconduct in Wenatchee. It is stated that sex offenders in Wenatchee outnumber citizens 764 to 1. I'm heavily looking into this Tracy 60, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not implicating anyone here, but the word "Wenatchee" and the fact that I can't trace him there makes me uber suspicious.

Great research . Holy cow!!!:eek:

[gibby207]

Yeah, I'm looking at PRIOR to church savin', worshipin', preachin'. If he were saved in Wenatchee, would you think as a young boy he lived there? Was his name Lawless there? Also, he was baptized by someone from Omak, not that far from Wenatchee, considered a friend? I actually have relatives from around there (in-laws) and will ask as Okanagon County is small and word gets around...

[SeekingJana]

Exactly. There are no aliases there. They're all either misspellings, or typos, or listing him by his given-middle, instead of his given, name. An "alias" almost always involves someone changing his or her surname. As for the moves, those are normal for a pastor.

It is quite risky to believe internet identity-searches; for example, I'm listed on one as having SEVEN different addresses in a town in which I lived a year, and at which I had one address.

You are right that Internet name searches are inaccurate. However, everyone leaves a trail... if we look for the complete correct name. :)
A man has a disadvantage if he's trying to " hide" because his name doesn't change due to marriage or divorce or spouse's death.
I'm listed as my former husband's wife, and I have been remarried for MANY years. I know the searches are often wrong, especially the free stuff that's visible on Veromi.net. and everything on Peoplefinders.com

[wfgodot]

You are right that Internet name searches are inaccurate. However, everyone leaves a trail... if we look for the complete correct name. :)
A man has a disadvantage if he's trying to " hide" because his name doesn't change due to marriage or divorce or spouse's death.
I'm listed as my former husband's wife, and I have been remarried for MANY years. I know the searches are often wrong, especially the free stuff that's visible on Veromi.net. and everything on Peoplefinders.com

Agreed. One MUST use the resources available, but with an eye to, as you said, considering one's sources.

[gibby207]

I have only one name on veromi, and peoplesearch 2 (maiden name). I'm thinking this man has changed his name totally many years ago. How can he drop from the face of the earth before he was "saved."

I also know (from experience) that people take to "the lord" and being "saved" to "cure" themselves of pedophilia. It's entirely possible that this man changed his name/clean slate when he was "saved." Where is the data before his saving, I ask?

Again... not implicating, only sleuthing... and MOO! :)

[SeekingJana]

Yeah, I'm looking at PRIOR to church savin', worshipin', preachin'. If he were saved in Wenatchee, would you think as a young boy he lived there? Was his name Lawless there? Also, he was baptized by someone from Omak, not that far from Wenatchee, considered a friend? I actually have relatives from around there (in-laws) and will ask as Okanagon County is small and word gets around...

I hereby " nominate" you to dig into this. :)
This is a very succinct line of thinking, IMO, and one which needs to be pursued. Since he has been a minister for over 30 years, there is a possibility that his last name isn't Lawless. Churches in the 70's, etc. didn't question a man of God.. Plus, this man had a mentor, his FIL.

All I know is that the dates appear to tell a story in 1960 ONLY, when Lawless was already in his 30's. He met Connie Harris, apparently fell in love with her. Her father was a Baptist preacher. So Mr. Lawless became a Baptist on his wedding day and was marred and baptized by his FIL. ( very strange to be baptized on one's wedding day, to be honest).

Harris ( FIL) plays a huge part in Lawless's life at the beginning of what we know- his baptism, his marriage, whatever religious tutelage Rev. Harris provided.. The FIL would most certainly be deceased but the Harris family may know things about Mr. Lawless, at least about his background in 1960, when he would already be in his 30's.

I probably would start by looking into the career of Elder Harris ( the FIL, father of Connie Harris Lawless). Did he ever do any, um, community ministerial service, gently phrased?

[wfgodot]

I hereby " nominate" you to dig into this. :)
This is a very succinct line of thinking, IMO, and one which needs to be pursued. Since he has been a minister for over 30 years, there is a possibility that his last name isn't Lawless. Churches in the 70's, etc. didn't question a man of God.. Plus, this man had a mentor, his FIL.

All I know is that the dates appear to tell a story in 1960 ONLY, when Lawless was already in his 30's. He met Connie Harris, apparently fell in love with her. Her father was a Baptist preacher. So Mr. Lawless became a Baptist on his wedding day and was marred and baptized by his FIL. ( very strange to be baptized on one's wedding day, to be honest).

Harris ( FIL) plays a huge part in Lawless's life at the beginning of what we know- his baptism, his marriage, whatever religious tutelage Rev. Harris provided.. The FIL would most certainly be deceased but the Harris family may know things about Mr. Lawless, at least about his background in 1960, when he would already be in his 30's.

I probably would start by looking into the career of Elder Harris ( the FIL, father of Connie Harris Lawless). Did he ever do any, um, community ministerial service, gently phrased?

Fascintating theory, yet I fail to be convinced that a preacher would change his name to "Lawless."

[smart blonde]

I have only one name on veromi, and peoplesearch 2 (maiden name). I'm thinking this man has changed his name totally many years ago. How can he drop from the face of the earth before he was "saved."

I also know (from experience) that people take to "the lord" and being "saved" to "cure" themselves of pedophilia. It's entirely possible that this man changed his name/clean slate when he was "saved." Where is the data before his saving, I ask?

Again... not implicating, only sleuthing... and MOO! :)
The problem with sleuthing someone's life from such a distant starting point, is the Internet as we know and use it now, wasn't even invented yet...

http://www.howoldistheinternet.com/

This man we are researching here is 77 years old.
Not being able to find information from 30, 40, 50 years ago, wouldn't necessarily mean he was living under a different identity, just that no information is available from that time period.
Usually, only people of notoriety, have that kind of Internet presence, that far back.

[LinasK]

Lina's K, do you believe the pond was drained " incidentally"? I'm wondering if the FBI suggested it.. Again, going to the comment today that this was a " disorganized crime".
I believe they have a good psych. profile of the killer to release that info.

Any known connection between Ann Silva and the Lawless family or Sandra's family?
Jana, I found more info on it on another thread: Sgt. Tony Sheneman with the Tracy Police Department said when workers were draining the pond in the area off Tracy Boulevard and Whitehall Road Monday morning in preparation to flood a nearby field, the suitcase floated to the surface. He said a worker moved it to the edge of the pond and then called authorities. http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=57551&catid=2

[gibby207]

I hereby " nominate" you to dig into this. :)
This is a very succinct line of thinking, IMO, and one which needs to be pursued. Since he has been a minister for over 30 years, there is a possibility that his last name isn't Lawless. Churches in the 70's, etc. didn't question a man of God.. Plus, this man had a mentor, his FIL.

All I know is that the dates appear to tell a story in 1960 ONLY, when Lawless was already in his 30's. He met Connie Harris, apparently fell in love with her. Her father was a Baptist preacher. So Mr. Lawless became a Baptist on his wedding day and was marred and baptized by his FIL. ( very strange to be baptized on one's wedding day, to be honest).

Harris ( FIL) plays a huge part in Lawless's life at the beginning of what we know- his baptism, his marriage, whatever religious tutelage Rev. Harris provided.. The FIL would most certainly be deceased but the Harris family may know things about Mr. Lawless, at least about his background in 1960, when he would already be in his 30's.

I probably would start by looking into the career of Elder Harris ( the FIL, father of Connie Harris Lawless). Did he ever do any, um, community ministerial service, gently phrased?

Yes, I have been but, again, alias on Elder's part. I am going to ask my family about these guys tomorrow, as the in-law family member in particular is in her 70s and will surely know especially the Elder Harris (she lived near Omak). IF NOT, then hink meter strikes up again, because my MIL knows EVERYONE of that age in Okanagon... believe me! LOL

The hink meter rose when I researched Elder Harris and he had an alias, and was Lawless's mentor. Smells to me, but again, I'd hate to implicate... My mom has been pushing me to bust out my theories for a couple of days but I didn't think I had anyone looking into Pastor Lawless. The poll told me otherwise! I need TakeNote to help me on this! She's from WA too! LOL. Actually, anyone can help... I'm trying to search the missing link from Cali to Wenatchee.

[gibby207]

Fascintating theory, yet I fail to be convinced that a preacher would change his name to "Lawless."

Lawless name is all over Wenatchee.... Just not his...

[wfgodot]

Lawless name is all over Wenatchee.... Just not his...

Yes, I've taught people named Lawless and I know there are lots of them. But, if it's posited that the man changed his name--after he found religion, particularly--"Lawless" is a bit of an odd choice, unless it were a family name on his mother's side, I suppose.

[LinasK]

Lawless name is all over Wenatchee.... Just not his...
Well... I mentioned on another thread, the actress who played Zena the Warrior Princess was an Australian gal Lucy Lawless. May be more common than we think, just awfully ironic in this case.

[SeekingJana]

Fascintating theory, yet I fail to be convinced that a preacher would change his name to "Lawless."

He may have been born with the name and have been an upstanding fine citizen all his life. We don't know, do we?

Speculation only- if there was a name change, maybe Harris gave him that last name, to be accepted as an act of humility.. or maybe Lawless decided to use the " hide in plain sight" theory. IDK. I'm hoping he's as pure in heart and innocent of this crime as the driven snow. But someone's guilty and so we sleuth, using names LE have thrown out as POIs.

BTW, I just remembered-
The Bible says that Jesus changed some of his disciples' names. Rev. Harris was a mentor to Lawless in a similar type of holy person in authority to disciple way, it seems.

[gibby207]

The problem with sleuthing someone's life from such a distant starting point, is the Internet as we know and use it now, wasn't even invented yet...

http://www.howoldistheinternet.com/

This man we are researching here is 77 years old.
Not being able to find information from 30, 40, 50 years ago, wouldn't necessarily mean he was living under a different identity, just that no information is available from that time period.

I've researched on geneology websites of people born 100s years earlier. I would think that I would find him on a high school roster.

[wfgodot]

He may have been born with the name and have been an upstanding fine citizen all his life. We don't know, do we?

Speculation only- if there was a name change, maybe Harris gave him that last name, to be accepted as an act of humility.. or maybe Lawless decided to use the " hide in plain sight" theory. IDK. I'm hoping he's as pure in heart and innocent of this crime as the driven snow. But someone's guilty and so we sleuth, using names LE have thrown out as POIs.

BTW, I just remembered-
The Bible says that Jesus changed some of his disciples' names. Rev. Harris was a mentor to Lawless in a similar type of holy person in authority to disciple way, it seems.

Yes, Jesus says to love the least of men, to love one's enemy, to love the wrongdoer, and He saved one "lawless" man beside Him on the cross, after he (St. Dismas is the name given him by the Church) repented of his sins and accepted Christ as his Savior.

So, while it's counter-intuitive that a religious man could become "Lawless," it certainly would fit a certain humility. Well-put.

[smart blonde]

I've researched on geneology websites of people born 100s years earlier. I would think that I would find him on a high school roster.
Good point...

:blowkiss:

[gibby207]

Good point...

:blowkiss:

Ah... you know I love ya!

I'm thinking he's not from Wenatchee, but maybe around the vicinity... MAYBE, but the key is Elder Harris. I'm on that tomorrow with mother-in-law!

I'm just looking for an excuse to talk with my mother-in-law! :crazy:

[lynnb]

I've found some old newspaper articles with his name mentioned. Can i post the links to them here or should I on the main forum?

[LinasK]

I've found some old newspaper articles with his name mentioned. Can i post the links to them here or should I on the main forum?
Put 'em here. Now that we have a forum, we're trying to branch out from the single General Discussion threads that encompass everything and get unwieldy...

[lynnb]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=akcMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bGMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3902,293651&dq=lane-lawless

You need to use the "hand" that shows up to navigate around the page.

Article mentioning Lane Lawless and family visiting Esther Lawless.
(this is how I knew I had the right one)

[lynnb]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5a4MAAAAIBAJ&sjid=i2MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6532,1662523&dq=lane-lawless

Obituary for Esther Lawless

[lynnb]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k60MAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mGMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6306,642377&dq=lane-lawless

Article about a wedding ceremony performed by Elder Lane Lawless.

[SeekingJana]

He'd been a Baptist for 19 years by this time, and a minister for some years by this time ( 1979), but it is interesting that they are said to be visiting his step- mother, Esther Lawless relative.. not a Harris, LOL.
Does anyone know who Ted Huckabee is, as in, is he some kind of minister or something? The name sounds familiar.

A couple of other things- it says they lived in San Jose. CA in 1979. I think we need to add that to our places he lived and the date. In 1979, he is said in this society column note to be living in San Jose, CA.

Regarding the obit of Esther Lawless: George had 2 sons when he married Esther in 1955. Chances are, Lane Lawless is from Brewster WA, judging from this article.
Notice it says that Esther " followed the harvests". I guess this means that she worked in the fruit groves as a migratory picker?

[wfgodot]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5a4MAAAAIBAJ&sjid=i2MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6532,1662523&dq=lane-lawless

Obituary for Esther Lawless

It's very interesting that his step-mother was Catholic.

[lynnb]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=e0cMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bGMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5267,1363671&dq=lane-lawless

Article that mentions news from 30 yrs ago.(from 1980,so about 1950) Mentions the debate team from Brewster High school.

[lynnb]

Hope that helps in your search.

[SeekingJana]

Message left in 2003:
My uncle, George Lawless (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/lawless-family-history.ashx\'Lawless), was married to Jessie Dicus (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/dicus-family-history.ashx\'Dicus) and they had 2 sons and lived in Brewster (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/brewster-family-history.ashx\'Brewster) WA. I have an address for Lane (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/lane-family-history.ashx\'Lane) Lawless (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/lawless-family-history.ashx\'Lawless) if you are interested in contacting him. I remember hearing as a child that George and Jessie divorced and she remarried a man known as "Lucky (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/lucky-family-history.ashx\'Lucky) Louie (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/louie-family-history.ashx\'Louie)". I also know that Lane (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/lane-family-history.ashx\'Lane) used to come up from CA to Dicus (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/\'http://www.ancestry.com/facts/dicus-family-history.ashx\'Dicus) family reunions and that he has a son that is interested in genealogy. Please respond if you would like his address."


SO, Here's Lane Lawless's family tree. Father- George Lawless. Mother Jessie Dicus.

[SeekingJana]

Lane Lawless is listed as graduating from Brewster HS in 1950 and apparently has an entry on Classmates.com.
I don't belong so I can't access it.

Note- there are friends (classmates) names on the entry I can read. Might be an interesting starting point to see who he hung around with and what became of them.
This is apparently the link to the Classmates.com page. ( I hope).
www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm (http://www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm)

[lynnb]

Lane Lawless is listed as graduating from Brewster HS in 1950 and apparently has an entry on Classmates.com.
I don't belong so I can't access it.

Note- there are friends (classmates) names on the entry I can read. Might be an interesting starting point to see who he hung around with and what became of them.
This is apparently the link to the Classmates.com page. ( I hope).
www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm?regId=8676630398 - 23k

I'm not a member there either. sorry

[Kat]

Says page not found SeekingJana.

[SeekingJana]

Says page not found SeekingJana.

I guess it is accessible by going to Classmates.com and signing in, then going to the Brewster, WA HS section and looking for the Class of 1950.

I don't think I should post his friends names from HS, should I?

[Kat]

No I wouldn't post names of his friends from HS.

I'll see if I can access from my Husband's page tomorrow. I think he still has one on classmates. I'll post either way :)

[scandi]

He'd been a Baptist for 19 years by this time, and a minister for some years by this time ( 1979), but it is interesting that they are said to be visiting his step- mother, Esther Lawless relative.. not a Harris, LOL.
Does anyone know who Ted Huckabee is, as in, is he some kind of minister or something? The name sounds familiar.

A couple of other things- it says they lived in San Jose. CA in 1979. I think we need to add that to our places he lived and the date. In 1979, he is said in this society column note to be living in San Jose, CA.

Regarding the obit of Esther Lawless: George had 2 sons when he married Esther in 1955. Chances are, Lane Lawless is from Brewster WA, judging from this article.
Notice it says that Esther " followed the harvests". I guess this means that she worked in the fruit groves as a migratory picker?


Hi SeekingJana, It would be interesting if the Pastor would come on and tell his side of the story, eh? Stranger things have happened here at WS. He might have access to the church computer now to write his sermons, right? :rolleyes:

Think it might be time for me to hit the hay. LOL

[Nora Charles]

Snipped by me:

He'd been a Baptist for 19 years by this time, and a minister for some years by this time ( 1979), but it is interesting that they are said to be visiting his step- mother, Esther Lawless relative.. not a Harris, LOL.

SeekingJana, I don't understand what you mean here, but Harris was the pastor's wife's maiden name. What do you men about the pastor's step-mother not being a Harris?

Maybe it's the time and I just need to get to sleep, but it seems like I'm missing something here because it doesn't make sense. TIA!

[SeekingJana]

Snipped by me:



SeekingJana, I don't understand what you mean here, but Harris was the pastor's wife's maiden name. What do you men about the pastor's step-mother not being a Harris?

Maybe it's the time and I just need to get to sleep, but it seems like I'm missing something here because it doesn't make sense. TIA!

Hi,
Like your Nick, LOL..
It seemed, when viewing Pastor Lawless's bio. that he became somewhat of a Harris. Was married to a Harris by a Harris, was baptized into their religious faith on his wedding day by Rev. Harris, followed his FIL, Rev. Harris, into the ministry, was mentored by his FIL in theology. The Harris relatives live in CA, while the Lawless family seems to have stayed in WA.

IOW, it seems to me that this man in his 30's, not married, apparently no strong career or religious values ( remember it was 1960 when religion was strong in the world, and his family apparently has Catholic roots) was assimilated into the Harris family and their culture.
I'm not sure if this makes sense- It could be that he doesn't consider the first 30- something years of his life to be worth mentioning...
IDK.

[SeekingJana]

Hi SeekingJana, It would be interesting if the Pastor would come on and tell his side of the story, eh? Stranger things have happened here at WS. He might have access to the church computer now to write his sermons, right? :rolleyes:

Think it might be time for me to hit the hay. LOL

I don't really care to read " his side'. We are gathering facts on a POI. I guess it's just my opinion, but I don't see that there is " his side" to anything factual.
I didn't get the feeling that he was a very sincere or concerned party in this child's murder investigation. Again, JMO.

[TakeNote]

Thank you for having this thread and bringing up these points! It seems on the discussion thread no one wanted to talk about this man.....

Elepher...I have been searching and searching, and nothing seems to come up for him until California, although it said in his bio that he was "saved" in Wenatchee, WA. So, being from WA, I started sleuthing. It got me nowhere. I'm thinking another alias based on what I've seen so far. I searched under the man who baptized him, and he's from Omak, WA, and he has more than 1 alias as well. Now, I didn't want to bring this up before tonight, but I will tell you why the town Wenatchee made my ears perk up:

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/

Research the Wenatchee sex ring and you will see. Pertinent is that once sexual allegations were made, there was a snowball effect, but one would have to imagine that there was sexual misconduct in Wenatchee. It is stated that sex offenders in Wenatchee outnumber citizens 764 to 1. I'm heavily looking into this Tracy 60, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not implicating anyone here, but the word "Wenatchee" and the fact that I can't trace him there makes me uber suspicious.

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/accused.html
i got this link.....very upseting.....and there is a connie wife of a paster....

[OkGrace]

Thank you for having this thread and bringing up these points! It seems on the discussion thread no one wanted to talk about this man.....

Elepher...I have been searching and searching, and nothing seems to come up for him until California, although it said in his bio that he was "saved" in Wenatchee, WA. So, being from WA, I started sleuthing. It got me nowhere. I'm thinking another alias based on what I've seen so far. I searched under the man who baptized him, and he's from Omak, WA, and he has more than 1 alias as well. Now, I didn't want to bring this up before tonight, but I will tell you why the town Wenatchee made my ears perk up:

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/

Research the Wenatchee sex ring and you will see. Pertinent is that once sexual allegations were made, there was a snowball effect, but one would have to imagine that there was sexual misconduct in Wenatchee. It is stated that sex offenders in Wenatchee outnumber citizens 764 to 1. I'm heavily looking into this Tracy 60, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not implicating anyone here, but the word "Wenatchee" and the fact that I can't trace him there makes me uber suspicious.

Reading that article IIRC that happened in the 90's and he has been at his church since 1981 correct?

[Torsade]

This really does look like it was a farse, a witch hunt (the Wenatchee sex ring, I mean) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_sex_ring

[momtective]

Hi SeekingJana, It would be interesting if the Pastor would come on and tell his side of the story, eh? Stranger things have happened here at WS. He might have access to the church computer now to write his sermons, right? :rolleyes:

Think it might be time for me to hit the hay. LOL

i doubt if he can do that since LE took his computers...

[passionflower]

Do we know his schedule for that dreadful day?
Where was he between 4-8 pm.......
Does he have an albi except for wife?
Was anyone working at church?

[warbuckle]

Does anyone know if this Brett Lawless is the preacher's son Brett?

http://www.123people.com/ext/frm?ti=person%20finder&search_term=brett%20lawless&search_country=US&st=person%20finder&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Flrd.yahooapis.com%2F_ylc%3 DX3oDMTVnOTVhNDczBF9TAzIwMjMxNTI3MDIEYXBwaWQDc1k3W lo2clYzNEhSZm5ZdGVmcmkzRUx4VG5makpERG5QOWVKV1NGSkJ HcTJ1V1dFa0xVdm5IYnNBeUNyVkd5Y2REVElUX2tlBGNsaWVud ANib3NzBHNlcnZpY2UDQk9TUwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEc3JjcHZpZAN XS1RFeUdLSWNyb3BTQkJ0c2tZTy52WjZXODV4ZGtuZDdpZ0FDM nho%2FSIG%3D11q5mgknp%2F**http%253A%2F%2Fwww.webbs leuths.org%2Fdcforum%2FDCForumID39%2F8.html

[scandi]

I don't really care to read " his side'. We are gathering facts on a POI. I guess it's just my opinion, but I don't see that there is " his side" to anything factual.
I didn't get the feeling that he was a very sincere or concerned party in this child's murder investigation. Again, JMO.


Good Morning SeekingJane, I was being a bit facetious and thought about deleting my post aand should have before I went to bed. ITA with you. xox

[momtective]

This email scripturalchurch@excite.com on Clover Road Baptist Church home page http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/index.htm really concerns me. Excite (dot)com is known for it's adult personal ads, swingers, gays, bi etc. if you get into excite adult sites there is everything there...and I mean everything...maybe even kiddie stuff.... Why on earth would he use an excite email? Could it be a code between pedo's..the excite email lets others know that you're into kids?

[momtective]

Does anyone know if this Brett Lawless is the preacher's son Brett?

http://www.123people.com/ext/frm?ti=person%20finder&search_term=brett%20lawless&search_country=US&st=person%20finder&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Flrd.yahooapis.com%2F_ylc%3 DX3oDMTVnOTVhNDczBF9TAzIwMjMxNTI3MDIEYXBwaWQDc1k3W lo2clYzNEhSZm5ZdGVmcmkzRUx4VG5makpERG5QOWVKV1NGSkJ HcTJ1V1dFa0xVdm5IYnNBeUNyVkd5Y2REVElUX2tlBGNsaWVud ANib3NzBHNlcnZpY2UDQk9TUwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEc3JjcHZpZAN XS1RFeUdLSWNyb3BTQkJ0c2tZTy52WjZXODV4ZGtuZDdpZ0FDM nho%2FSIG%3D11q5mgknp%2F**http%253A%2F%2Fwww.webbs leuths.org%2Fdcforum%2FDCForumID39%2F8.html

His kids...Brian, Brett, and Joni

[OkGrace]

This really does look like it was a farse, a witch hunt (the Wenatchee sex ring, I mean) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_sex_ring

I remember a bit of this when it was happening.
I hope this case does not hurt innocent people.....
If something happens to the one proven to have taken this child I have no problem, string em up hang em whatever.

[Torsade]

I remember a bit of this when it was happening.
I hope this case does not hurt innocent people.....
If something happens to the one proven to have taken this child I have no problem, string em up hang em whatever.

I agree. I hope that mob mentality doesn't take over, and someone innocent gets hurt. It's unlikely that ALL the POIs are the wretched dog that killed beautiful Sandra. Maybe two, but unlikely three.

[RhythmicSun]

Hi,
Like your Nick, LOL..
It seemed, when viewing Pastor Lawless's bio. that he became somewhat of a Harris. Was married to a Harris by a Harris, was baptized into their religious faith on his wedding day by Rev. Harris, followed his FIL, Rev. Harris, into the ministry, was mentored by his FIL in theology. The Harris relatives live in CA, while the Lawless family seems to have stayed in WA.

IOW, it seems to me that this man in his 30's, not married, apparently no strong career or religious values ( remember it was 1960 when religion was strong in the world, and his family apparently has Catholic roots) was assimilated into the Harris family and their culture.
I'm not sure if this makes sense- It could be that he doesn't consider the first 30- something years of his life to be worth mentioning...
IDK.

Thank you for pointing out the name Harris. I had forgotten to put that named Asteroid into LL's birth chart in the forensic astrology thread for Sandra. Harris makes a very strong connection in the chart, and further case. If anyone is interested, the link to the chart is here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3574548&postcount=277

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.kcba.com/Global/story.asp?S=10148146

Interesting short interview with Pastor Harris, Connie Lawless' brother....and apparent member of the same church maybe?


Edited to Add: Is THIS the right thread for this?? I'll remove if not....thanks :-)

I think the POS is connected to the church, that is why the FBI were all over it Tuesday. Not sure exactly who, but I did read on the thread yesterday that this congregation is known for saving their members even though they may be RSO's and that they feel they can solve the problems within the community without intervention from police. Based on one members opinions from an incident in the past.

[gibby207]

Thank you for pointing out the name Harris. I had forgotten to put that named Asteroid into LL's birth chart in the forensic astrology thread for Sandra. Harris makes a very strong connection in the chart, and further case. If anyone is interested, the link to the chart is here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3574548&postcount=277

Thank you for this! And thanks for the Brewster, WA, too! I'm more interested in the Lawless/Harris link as it pertains to the Tracy 60.

Also, I'm fully aware of the Wenatchee witch hunt, the snowball effect it had, and am no way implicating things here.

Going to the astro chart now! Will ask my family member about Elder Harris and Lawless today and will let you guys know what I get, if anything.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

Does anyone know if this Brett Lawless is the preacher's son Brett?

http://www.123people.com/ext/frm?ti=person%20finder&search_term=brett%20lawless&search_country=US&st=person%20finder&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Flrd.yahooapis.com%2F_ylc%3 DX3oDMTVnOTVhNDczBF9TAzIwMjMxNTI3MDIEYXBwaWQDc1k3W lo2clYzNEhSZm5ZdGVmcmkzRUx4VG5makpERG5QOWVKV1NGSkJ HcTJ1V1dFa0xVdm5IYnNBeUNyVkd5Y2REVElUX2tlBGNsaWVud ANib3NzBHNlcnZpY2UDQk9TUwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEc3JjcHZpZAN XS1RFeUdLSWNyb3BTQkJ0c2tZTy52WjZXODV4ZGtuZDdpZ0FDM nho%2FSIG%3D11q5mgknp%2F**http%253A%2F%2Fwww.webbs leuths.org%2Fdcforum%2FDCForumID39%2F8.html

I don't think that is his son- but I don't know for sure. His sons Brett and Brian both live in the greater LA area and active in the same church. They are both married with teenage and older children.

[Kat]

snipped from article dated 09 April 2009

Sheneman had harsh words for some local media outlets who turned their focus on Pastor Lane Lawless as a possible suspect in Sandra's slaying, saying the pastor and his wife were just two of the hundreds police have interviewed.


"For them to name the pastor as the primary suspect and that he was about to be arrested was not only incorrect, but irresponsible," Sheneman told ABCNews.com Wednesday.



Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7296312&page=1

[FishingFunnyFrog]

This email scripturalchurch@excite.com on Clover Road Baptist Church home page http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/index.htm really concerns me. Excite (dot)com is known for it's adult personal ads, swingers, gays, bi etc. if you get into excite adult sites there is everything there...and I mean everything...maybe even kiddie stuff.... Why on earth would he use an excite email? Could it be a code between pedo's..the excite email lets others know that you're into kids?

momtective- good eyes! You could be on to something. Although the website seems a bit outdated...maybe from the early 2000's when it was created. If I remember correctly back then a lot of people had excite.com email addresses. Excite.com may have even been an internet service provider/web hosting site before it turned trashy. Not sure about this but I remember several of my friends who had personal web pages (before the days of blogging!) used excite.com and they aren't into the raunchy :)

[GoodAim]

http://www.fmbcbellflower.org/groupschedule.html

This might be the son, Brett Lawless?

[GoodAim]

http://www.fmbcbellflower.org/groupschedule.html

Oops. Also Brian! They are both doing God's work per Lane's bio.

[GoodAim]

http://www.abaptist.org/Yearbook/california.htm

Brian is involved in the music. I hope you guys haven't already posted all this!

[ilovemew]

Yes, I've taught people named Lawless and I know there are lots of them. But, if it's posited that the man changed his name--after he found religion, particularly--"Lawless" is a bit of an odd choice, unless it were a family name on his mother's side, I suppose.

Or an inside joke.

[nursebeeme]

snipped from article dated 09 April 2009



Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7296312&page=1
what did Sheneman expect with all of his tight lips going on? The search at the church right when her body was found in the case was over the top!

[momtective]

Anyone have a screen shot of Lawless from when the media was talking to him and his wife or a link to that video? Just double checking for the heavy set man with thick mustache...

[Recovering-Lurker]

Anyone have a screen shot of Lawless from when the media was talking to him and his wife or a link to that video? Just double checking for the heavy set man with thick mustache...

Here's one

http://www.truveo.com/Raw-Pastor-Questioned-In-Cantu-Case/id/2305843012366653162

[txsvicki]

Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.

[LinasK]

Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.
Yeah, it's possible, but the pastor has a connection to the perp at the very least. Could be a family member of his, the roommate, or another congregant.

[Recovering-Lurker]

Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.

Could be. Maybe even F. Williams. Looks like he has keys to the church.

Here's a thread on him.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82693

[chicagofa13]

I think the POS is connected to the church, that is why the FBI were all over it Tuesday. Not sure exactly who, but I did read on the thread yesterday that this congregation is known for saving their members even though they may be RSO's and that they feel they can solve the problems within the community without intervention from police. Based on one members opinions from an incident in the past.

I may be confused, but I thought someone else said it was a different church "known" for this, not Clover Road??

[wfgodot]

I may be confused, but I thought someone else said it was a different church "known" for this, not Clover Road??

You're right. Clover Road was not associated with that particular sub-denomination. It's back on Thread #7 or #8.

[LaLaw2000]

I know LE has not come right out and cleared anyone.
The Lawless mobile home has been searched more than once, the phones and computer have been confiscated via search warrant, Lawless was questioned most of the night after Sandra's body was found, and his church searched. Why the heavy concentration on L. Lawless if he is not a viable suspect?

My late stepfather was a Methodist minister and stayed at a rather large Methodist church for approximately 15 years. We only moved twice while I was growing up.

I find it very odd that Lawless was 'called' to the ministry on April 6th, 1971, and was ordained on August 20, 1971. That is a period of just over 4 months. There is no way you can be ordained in that length of Theology study. I have spent a couple of hours looking up the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Alisal Baptist Institute Theological Seminary. There is no accreditation anywhere to be found. There is no board of directors, and nothing on file at all for tax exempt status. IMO, and only IMO, it did not exist except on paper. I also do not see how L. Lawless father in law could ordain him.

All of the other pastors at Grace Missionary Church were there for several years, yet L. Lawless was the pastor for only 1 year. I just wonder about that.

Unlike some, I do find that so many alias's exist of this man. IMO, that is unusual for a minister. Why the variations? Is he really an ordained minister?

IMO, after LE looked at this man's computer and phones, then talked with him so many hours just after Sandra's body was found, IF he can be cleared LE certainly should have done so by now. IMO, there certainly must be something about him that doesn't sit well with LE.

Sorry for the long post.

[elepher50]

Hmmm... a slight change in the mood on one of the MS pages:

http://s598.photobucket.com/albums/tt62/elepher50/?action=view&current=E.jpg

[RhythmicSun]

I agree with everything in your post LALAW, except for the aliases. His full name is Clifford Lane Lawless. Unless you are seeing something I haven't seen, it is not uncommon for names to appear wonky in peoplesearch databases. My own listing is wonky because of my marriage and I used to go by my middle name. I also changed my given first name legally because I hate it. I am also listed as living with my ex-husband and his wife! He is listed as living with me at a former address from years ago. He is listed as having my surname for a middle name. One of my children is listed as being 7-8 years older than they are.

What I am interested in is:
Did Lane Lawless use any aliases before he was saved, where did he grow up, what was he doing, why doesn't his bio cover his life prior to being saved? Most people who repent discuss a bit about their backgrounds and how they made mistakes and were saved. He hasn't done that. He doesn't have to, but it's unusual.

It's hinky. (first time I've used that WS word!)

[Nora Charles]

This is pretty much how I feel since I actually stopped and took a look at the other names. LOL They are all variances of his current name, and some certainly look like typos. My husband's and my mail - especially junk mail - arrives with the same variances and typos, and we've never used names that weren't our own except online - yeah, the secret's out I'm not really Nora Charles, no one could ever be except Myrna Loy. :)

My hinky meter rises, like yours, when it comes to the time period before his marriage. I also have another issue that makes me suspicious...Most Christians, especially pastors, desire their children to marry into the same faith, and a person who is strong and mature in his faith (that tends to hold true for other religions as well). It sounds like Lawless was a VERY new Christian since he got baptized on his wedding day (super weird - MOO!!!). But here's the thing...I wonder why a pastor performed the marriage ceremony between his daughter and a very new member of his faith. That just seems strange to me. Here's a guy who hasn't even bothered to get baptized before, yet all the Baptist churches I've heard of teach that is the first thing you do as a Christian to demonstrate being born again. They are called "Baptist" ya know? LOL It just seems weird to me that he wouldn't want to wait to see what kind of Christian this guy turned into before marrying him off to his own daughter.

SPECULATION ALERT/DON'T QUOTE AS FACT: This would especially be true if this guy had a "past" of any kind, which seems a possibility since we can't find anything about him before the marriage. MOO!!!!

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the father who was a pastor was quick to marry off his daughter to a very new Christian? TIA!


I agree with everything in your post LALAW, except for the aliases. His full name is Clifford Lane Lawless. Unless you are seeing something I haven't seen, it is not uncommon for names to appear wonky in peoplesearch databases. My own listing is wonky because of my marriage and I used to go by my middle name. I also changed my given first name legally because I hate it. I am also listed as living with my ex-husband and his wife! He is listed as living with me at a former address from years ago. He is listed as having my surname for a middle name. One of my children is listed as being 7-8 years older than they are.

What I am interested in is:
Did Lane Lawless use any aliases before he was saved, where did he grow up, what was he doing, why doesn't his bio cover his life prior to being saved? Most people who repent discuss a bit about their backgrounds and how they made mistakes and were saved. He hasn't done that. He doesn't have to, but it's unusual.

It's hinky. (first time I've used that WS word!)

[wfgodot]

Nora, does this mean you don't even have a cute little dog called Asta??

[Nora Charles]

:blowkiss: I LOVE you for knowing that!!!

Nora, does this mean you don't even have a cute little dog called Asta??

[RhythmicSun]

lol wfgodot.

And right on, Nora. Very good points.

[Recovering-Lurker]

Did you all see this?

http://***********.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-lane-lawless-video.html

This is what we were talking about yesterday.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

Hmmm... a slight change in the mood on one of the MS pages:

http://s598.photobucket.com/albums/tt62/elepher50/?action=view&current=E.jpg

She logged on last night around 9:30 or so and changed her mood to Furious and her status to: "10,000 people will claim to be there but in reality only a few will have been present". I don't know what that means but I'm sure they're having a really hard time with this case.

[scandi]

She logged on last night around 9:30 or so and changed her mood to Furious and her status to: "10,000 people will claim to be there but in reality only a few will have been present". I don't know what that means but I'm sure they're having a really hard time with this case.

Hi FFF, I am at a total loss as to what or who you are referring to here :confused: xox Ta

[Nora Charles]

Hi FFF, I am at a total loss as to what or who you are referring to here :confused: xox Ta

Someone posted this link a while back as being a Lawless relative...granddaughter I believe (but don't quote me on that).

[SeekingJana]

Did you all see this?

http://***********.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-lane-lawless-video.html

This is what we were talking about yesterday.

THANK YOU for this!
The strangest thing about this video to me is that Pastor Lawless has said that his wife, Connie, has heart problems and was in a state of shock about Sandra's murder, yet Connie is the one driving the car, Connie is the one doing all of the coherent speaking.. Lawless at one point said " Whatever she said". Like he couldn't be bothered to form his own single complete sentence.

OK, JMO but this man was either medicated or he was displaying an inappropriately flat affect, especially given that he deals with death on a regular basis as a pastor, conducting funerals, etc.
Rev. Lawless tried very hard to hide behind his wife. He showed no concern for the family or the dead child on camera, nor was his demeanor that of a person who is used to public speaking.. He was not forthright, or even helpful. He repeated the reporter's question " Did I kill her?" and never makes eye contact, never gives an emphatic " NO", just sits there. while his wife starts talking again.

Notice that his wife Connie says the following: " Oh, it's so sad that someone would take a tiny little thing and ABUSE HER ___ Lawless mumbles to her " don't know that"_____
and then Connie says (louder) "and murder her".

WHY did Connie say ABUSE her???

Connie also said that they have a granddaughter who played with Sandra at the pastor's home quite often, and Lawless looked out the right side window away from the cameras and reporters when she said that part.

I don't mean to imply any wrongdoing. These are my observations of the video clip.

[Nora Charles]

I copied this post to the "Church" thread but thought it would help to have it here as well. It was originally posted back in the General Discussion Thread #6. FWIW, she is a new WS member, this is her only post, and Admin has not verified who she claims to be. However, no one disagreed with her claim when she posted, and her post seems sincere and consistent with the tone of the website. (I read a bit on the website and they ask people to "Speak the truth in love" and they seem to be about healing the offended rather than bashing the offending.)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568392&postcount=295


Below is the content of that post (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote two different posts so I just copied hers):

Clover Road Baptist Church
Hi, everyone...

I'm new here. I'm the moderator of a site called www.sgmsurvivors.com, and I noticed that today we have received a number of hits from this board. A user posted information that linked Clover Road Baptist Church to the organization called Sovereign Grace Ministries that is the subject of the site that I moderate.

I haven't read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has already come up, but I just want to clarify that Clover Road Baptist Church has no connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes, Clover Road did at one point merge with another congregation that had "Sovereign Grace" in its name, but there has never been any affiliation between those churches and SGM.

I realize that this is probably old news and not a big deal, but I thought I'd post this info in case anyone was still under the impression that the issues discussed over at sgmsurvivors (our site) would have any relation to the investigation of Clover Road Baptist Church. They don't.

Thanks, and blessings to all. My heart is sad over the loss of Sandra!

[SeekingJana]

This is pretty much how I feel since I actually stopped and took a look at the other names. LOL They are all variances of his current name, and some certainly look like typos. My husband's and my mail - especially junk mail - arrives with the same variances and typos, and we've never used names that weren't our own except online - yeah, the secret's out I'm not really Nora Charles, no one could ever be except Myrna Loy. :)

My hinky meter rises, like yours, when it comes to the time period before his marriage. I also have another issue that makes me suspicious...Most Christians, especially pastors, desire their children to marry into the same faith, and a person who is strong and mature in his faith (that tends to hold true for other religions as well). It sounds like Lawless was a VERY new Christian since he got baptized on his wedding day (super weird - MOO!!!). But here's the thing...I wonder why a pastor performed the marriage ceremony between his daughter and a very new member of his faith. That just seems strange to me. Here's a guy who hasn't even bothered to get baptized before, yet all the Baptist churches I've heard of teach that is the first thing you do as a Christian to demonstrate being born again. They are called "Baptist" ya know? LOL It just seems weird to me that he wouldn't want to wait to see what kind of Christian this guy turned into before marrying him off to his own daughter.

SPECULATION ALERT/DON'T QUOTE AS FACT: This would especially be true if this guy had a "past" of any kind, which seems a possibility since we can't find anything about him before the marriage. MOO!!!!

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the father who was a pastor was quick to marry off his daughter to a very new Christian? TIA!

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

[SeekingJana]

I copied this post to the "Church" thread but thought it would help to have it here as well. It was originally posted back in the General Discussion Thread #6. FWIW, she is a new WS member, this is her only post, and Admin has not verified who she claims to be. However, no one disagreed with her claim when she posted, and her post seems sincere and consistent with the tone of the website. (I read a bit on the website and they ask people to "Speak the truth in love" and they seem to be about healing the offended rather than bashing the offending.)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568392&postcount=295


Below is the content of that post (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote two different posts so I just copied hers):

Clover Road Baptist Church
Hi, everyone...

I'm new here. I'm the moderator of a site called www.sgmsurvivors.com (http://www.sgmsurvivors.com), and I noticed that today we have received a number of hits from this board. A user posted information that linked Clover Road Baptist Church to the organization called Sovereign Grace Ministries that is the subject of the site that I moderate.

I haven't read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has already come up, but I just want to clarify that Clover Road Baptist Church has no connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes, Clover Road did at one point merge with another congregation that had "Sovereign Grace" in its name, but there has never been any affiliation between those churches and SGM.

I realize that this is probably old news and not a big deal, but I thought I'd post this info in case anyone was still under the impression that the issues discussed over at sgmsurvivors (our site) would have any relation to the investigation of Clover Road Baptist Church. They don't.

Thanks, and blessings to all. My heart is sad over the loss of Sandra!

I completely understand why the lady wrote this. Lawless was the pastor at A church called Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptist Church, per his bio.
People Googled and got the wrong website.
Edited to ask:
What is that website about, anyway? Why does there need to be a website about " surviving" something called " Sovereign Grace Ministries?"
Sounds interesting just the same, even if there is no direct connection between Lawless's former church and this survivor's website group.

[Nora Charles]

As I was reading your response the same question popped up in my mind!

SPECULATION ALERT: An unplanned pregnancy would CERTAINLY make a situation for a jailhouse-type conversion, a shotgun wedding, and the FIL possibly "helping along" the ordination and pastor position! Anyone have the birth date for their firstborn?

As far as the "saved" date differing from the "baptism" date, the Baptists I have known do make a distinction between the two, unlike Catholics and some other denominations. Because they don't do infant baptism (at least the Baptists I know) they believe it is a demonstration of being born again - thus it couldn't happen until they were old enough to make a decision that they believe in Jesus as their Savior. Then joining the church is another separate event, because they have to be baptized before they become members.

Any Baptist out there, please correct me.


Edit: great link by passionflower in "Church" thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3580261&postcount=59
What church believes in and a comment letter

http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm



I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

[Nora Charles]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

I completely understand why the lady wrote this. Lawless was the pastor at A church called Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptist Church, per his bio.
People Googled and got the wrong website.
Edited to ask:
What is that website about, anyway? Why does there need to be a website about " surviving" something called " Sovereign Grace Ministries?"
Sounds interesting just the same, even if there is no direct connection between Lawless's former church and this survivor's website group.

[LinasK]

Did you all see this?

http://***********.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-lane-lawless-video.html

This is what we were talking about yesterday.
Oh, I agree! The wife takes over for him and is in total denial. She seems very naive. He acts like he's spaced out on meds, like "Who Me?"

[SeekingJana]

As I was reading your response the same question popped up in my mind!

SPECULATION ALERT: An unplanned pregnancy would CERTAINLY make a situation for a jailhouse-type conversion, a shotgun wedding, and the FIL possibly "helping along" the ordination and pastor position! Anyone have the birth date for their firstborn?

As far as the "saved" date differing from the "baptism" date, the Baptists I have known do make a distinction between the two, unlike Catholics and some other denominations. Because they don't do infant baptism (at least the Baptists I know) they believe it is a demonstration of being born again - thus it couldn't happen until they were old enough to make a decision that they believe in Jesus as their Savior. Then joining the church is another separate event, because they have to be baptized before they become members.

Any Baptist out there, please correct me.


Edit: great link by passionflower in "Church" thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3580261&postcount=59

I was in a mainstream Southern Baptist church until my 20's, at which time I decided organized religion wasn't for me. Maybe I can answer this. :)

Yes, Baptists, at least Southern Baptists, absolutely do hold the belief that if a person believes in God the Father, and Jesus, His only son, then that person is a Christian, meaning, they will go to the exact same Heaven as Baptists hopefully will.
The reference for this belief is the thief on the cross beside Jesus at the time of the crucifixtion. The thief had no opportunity to be baptized or for any other ceremonial act of obedience to take place, but he had the one thing needed: Belief in Jesus and God the Father.
Jesus said " Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise", to the thief who asked for salvation, belieiving that Jesus was the son of God.

Mainstream Baptists, which usually includes Missionary Baptist churches, believe exactly what is said by Jesus in the Bible, John 3: 16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Baptism is a symbolic act of faith and obedience, because Jesus was baptized. It does NOT confer salvation, not even for a Baptist. Only God and the personal belief inside one's soul determines salvation and the " going to Heaven" thing.

[Nora Charles]

I was in a mainstream Southern Baptist church until my 20's, at which time I decided organized religion wasn't for me. Maybe I can answer this. :)

Yes, Baptists, at least Southern Baptists, absolutely do hold the belief that if a person believes in God the Father, and Jesus, His only son, then that person is a Christian, meaning, they will go to the exact same Heaven as Baptists hopefully will.
The reference for this belief is the thief on the cross beside Jesus at the time of the crucifixtion. The thief had no opportunity to be baptized or for any other ceremonial act of obedience to take place, but he had the one thing needed: Belief in Jesus and God the Father.
Jesus said " Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise", to the thief who asked for salvation, belieiving that Jesus was the son of God.

Mainstream Baptists, which usually includes Missionary Baptist churches, believe exactly what is said by Jesus in the Bible, John 3: 16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Baptism is a symbolic act of faith and obedience, because Jesus was baptized. It does NOT confer salvation, not even for a Baptist. Only God and the personal belief inside one's soul determines salvation and the " going to Heaven" thing.

Thanks for explaining it so thoroughly, SeekingJana! Can I ask you another question to make sure I understand this paragraph in post #119:

"Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc."


Does that mean that if he were previously Methodist or Catholic, and baptized in one of those churches, he would have to be baptized again when he joined the Baptist church? I'm thinking this is where I'm lost - sorry to be a pain. If I have it correct, I'm thinking that if it was an infant baptism, then he would have to be because it wasn't his personal decision at that time to accept Jesus as his Savior. However, what is the procedure if he was baptized as an adult, when he got saved, but then joined the Baptist church - would he have to get baptized again at that time?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to make sure I understand how the denomination works, so I'm interpreting the events that transpired in Pastor Lawless's past correctly.:blowkiss:

And thanks for everyone else for putting up with my being on this tangent - I just want to make sure I understand how things work in his denomination so I don't sleuth down a wrong path!:blowkiss:

[SeekingJana]

Thanks for explaining it so thoroughly, SeekingJana! Can I ask you another question to make sure I understand this paragraph in post #119:

"Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc."


Does that mean that if he were previously Methodist or Catholic, and baptized in one of those churches, he would have to be baptized again when he joined the Baptist church? I'm thinking this is where I'm lost - sorry to be a pain. If I have it correct, I'm thinking that if it was an infant baptism, then he would have to be because it wasn't his personal decision at that time to accept Jesus as his Savior. However, what is the procedure if he was baptized as an adult, when he got saved, but then joined the Baptist church - would he have to get baptized again at that time?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to make sure I understand how the denomination works, so I'm interpreting the events that transpired in Pastor Lawless's past correctly.:blowkiss:

And thanks for everyone else for putting up with my being on this tangent - I just want to make sure I understand how things work in his denomination so I don't sleuth down a wrong path!:blowkiss:

Hi,
Yes. a person who joins a Baptist church from another Christian denomination would be baptized shortly after joining the church. However- and this is the important distinction not made in the bio on Lawless- the pastor of the Baptist church accepting the person as a new member would make sure the congregation knew the person was already a Christian if they were coming from another church, if the person told the Baptist pastor that they experienced personal salvation at a prior time in their lives.

Some Christian religious faiths baptize babies as a ritual of protection and of commitment to God, but the plan of salvation is still told in the Scriptures as :
A person who reaches the age of accountability will have a personal recognition of being a sinner, will pray for forgiveness ( repentance) and will accept God as their personal Savior. This doesn't have anything to do with A church. It has to do with what each person has experienced and believes.

Also, Baptists believe that if a person becomes a Christian in the Baptist church but dies before they can be baptized, they are still a Christian, a Baptist, and are going to heaven.
Again, baptism is a ritual more than anything else.

Just like mainstream Protestant churches which have the Lord's Supper do not believe the bread and water ( or grape juice) is actually Christ's body. ( As opposed to the Roman Catholic belief of transfiguration of the Host).
It, like baptism, is a re-creation of an act of fellowship that Jesus shared with His disciples. Does not influence salvation or condition of the soul, etc.

[txsvicki]

Baptists will also allow people to be baptized again in the Baptist church. Say, if a child goes forward at the invitation then follows with baptism and goes on to later believe they didn't understand it all. That person could years later , even if after living a bad life for awhile, ask to be baptized again and the preacher will do it. Baptists consider the person a Christian, but not actually a member of the church until Baptism. When baptized, they become a member of the church that did the baptism.

[Nora Charles]

By jove, I think I've got it! lol I really appreciate this, because I didn't want to get off track by being unfamiliar with this particular denomination. Hopefully others have been helped also, and we can sleuth more effectively. Thanks, SeekingJana!!

[SeekingJana]

Good points, Vickie.
I've never known of someone asking to be re-baptized as an adult, but I know it probably happens.
I've also never known of a Baptist minister to make a distinction between a baptized Baptist and a new, unbaptized person if the person dies before baptism. Theoretically, I'm not sure why it would matter, since Baptists are Christians, and that's the main thing. KWIM? :)
But, in accordance with what I remember about the Southern Baptist articles of faith or creed or whatever ( I don't remember the term) you are right about both unusual occurrances.

[SeekingJana]

By jove, I think I've got it! lol I really appreciate this, because I didn't want to get off track by being unfamiliar with this particular denomination. Hopefully others have been helped also, and we can sleuth more effectively. Thanks, SeekingJana!!
LOL, you made me laugh. :blowkiss:
First time since I've been posting on this case. :)

In general, unless someone is " tolerant" enough to put up with an extremely radical Baptist group, Baptists are just mainstream Christians who barely dunk a person in a baptismal font ( like a shallow small pool) .
No snake-handling, no speaking in tongues, no rolling in the aisles, nothing that would awaken the dozers in the congregation. ;)

[Salem]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

See my bold - could this line of reasoning have anything to do with the envelope found today "from Sandra to My Killer"? Interesting thought. I know LE said there was no connection, but it makes you wonder?

Salem

[gibby207]

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

I'm sorry I've been away... I'm sick (blech).

But I DID talk with my MIL. She's in her 70s and from the Brewster/Twisp/Omak area. Her memory is thin, and she is going to try to dig more information from her friends as well.

She said she recalls NO A. Harris from the region. She DOES recall the last name Lawless. Not Lane, Cliff sounds maybe right, but she said there was a second marriage and the name came from that, she thinks. She is going to try to find out more as I was surprised that she hadn't heard of A. Harris at all, being a pastor at the Baptist church in Omak and all.

So, not much new, but we are still missing some years there that hopefully my MIL can fill in. One thing she did say is that a lot of people she knew at that time are dead or dying so it may be difficult to pin this down. She has one good friend who may remember more and will be talking with her this weekend.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I know LE has not come right out and cleared anyone.
The Lawless mobile home has been searched more than once, the phones and computer have been confiscated via search warrant, Lawless was questioned most of the night after Sandra's body was found, and his church searched. Why the heavy concentration on L. Lawless if he is not a viable suspect?

My late stepfather was a Methodist minister and stayed at a rather large Methodist church for approximately 15 years. We only moved twice while I was growing up.

I find it very odd that Lawless was 'called' to the ministry on April 6th, 1971, and was ordained on August 20, 1971. That is a period of just over 4 months. There is no way you can be ordained in that length of Theology study. I have spent a couple of hours looking up the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Alisal Baptist Institute Theological Seminary. There is no accreditation anywhere to be found. There is no board of directors, and nothing on file at all for tax exempt status. IMO, and only IMO, it did not exist except on paper. I also do not see how L. Lawless father in law could ordain him.

All of the other pastors at Grace Missionary Church were there for several years, yet L. Lawless was the pastor for only 1 year. I just wonder about that.

Unlike some, I do find that so many alias's exist of this man. IMO, that is unusual for a minister. Why the variations? Is he really an ordained minister?

IMO, after LE looked at this man's computer and phones, then talked with him so many hours just after Sandra's body was found, IF he can be cleared LE certainly should have done so by now. IMO, there certainly must be something about him that doesn't sit well with LE.

Sorry for the long post.

Baptist often don't require the same amount of formal study or a degree from an accredited seminary as other denominations require. There isn't a great emphasis on theological education in many of the Baptist denominations. So it isn't that unusual that he was ordained 4 months after being called.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

The denominations are completey different in every way except that they both believe in Believer baptism. Other than that Clover Rd. Baptis and Sovereign Grace Ministries have totally different theology.

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

Brian is currently age 47. Not sure if Brett is older or younger. Not sure about Joni either except her children are all younger than Brett and Brian's children.

[Nora Charles]

Baptist often don't require the same amount of formal study or a degree from an accredited seminary as other denominations require. There isn't a great emphasis on theological education in many of the Baptist denominations. So it isn't that unusual that he was ordained 4 months after being called.

Thank you FFF, I didn't know any Baptist churches did that. If this is one of those branches of the Baptist denomination, it wouldn't look so hinky after all.

[Nora Charles]

Brian is currently age 47. Not sure if Brett is older or younger. Not sure about Joni either except her children are all younger than Brett and Brian's children.

Thank you! Pastor Lawless was married July 9, 1960, so if Brett is older that Brian it might just explain things.

[gibby207]

Based on the new information, I'm expanding on my theory a bit. L. Lawless was "saved" from his past, whatever that was, by his Elder Harris. Does anyone think Pastor Lawless is "paying it forward" by having people such as FW and Melissa Huckaby (a.k.a. Lawless) in his life? Am I making sense here?

[passionflower]

IIRC Connie was home when MLH left house (Kidnapped/murdered Sandra)
where was Lane?

[smart blonde]

IIRC Connie was home when MLH left house (Kidnapped/murdered Sandra)
where was Lane?
I have been wondering the very same thing...
It has been stated that Connie Lawless was home when Melissa went to the church... where was the Pastor?
Was he home, too? Was he at the church already? Where?

[KR2tonenow]

I might have missed this but was it stated where Pastor Lane was, and does he have an alibi when Sandra was murdered?

[KR2tonenow]

Based on the new information, I'm expanding on my theory a bit. L. Lawless was "saved" from his past, whatever that was, by his Elder Harris. Does anyone think Pastor Lawless is "paying it forward" by having people such as FW and Melissa Huckaby (a.k.a. Lawless) in his life? Am I making sense here?

Sure, MH was his grand daughter. That was the church's belief, stated back.

[SeriouslySearching]

I have been wondering the very same thing...
It has been stated that Connie Lawless was home when Melissa went to the church... where was the Pastor?
Was he home, too? Was he at the church already? Where?The only person saying Connie was home is Melissa so we do not know this to be a fact. As far as I know, LE have not given any information as to where Lane or Connie were when Sandra went missing. (I don't know if it is correct, but I do recall hearing her 5 yo daughter was not at home when Sandra went missing. I am trying to find confirmation on this.)

[mama2jackson]

Hi Everyone

I know i am brand new here, But i thought i could shed a little light on the subject. I know pastor Lane Lawless and his wife, and have my whole life. I have been to clover road baptist church a number of times. (I also have known the harris family my whole life). I can tell you, you will not find a nicer more genuine man of god anywhere. It breaks my heart to see this family going thru this. (I can not speak for the accused as i can not recall even meeting her.) It seems like there is a mob mentality for this man, that is so very undeserved.

Also for the person who wanted to know about Ted Huckabee, He is my grandfather, and he is not in the ministry.

Anyways thanks for listening. I will answer any questions i can.

JLB

[Livvy]

Hi Everyone

I know i am brand new here, But i thought i could shed a little light on the subject. I know pastor Lane Lawless and his wife, and have my whole life. I have been to clover road baptist church a number of times. (I also have known the harris family my whole life). I can tell you, you will not find a nicer more genuine man of god anywhere. It breaks my heart to see this family going thru this. (I can not speak for the accused as i can not recall even meeting her.) It seems like there is a mob mentality for this man, that is so very undeserved.

Also for the person who wanted to know about Ted Huckabee, He is my grandfather, and he is not in the ministry.

Anyways thanks for listening. I will answer any questions i can.

JLB

I feel really bad for Pator Lawless and his family! They seem like a normal family helping out a grandaughter who needed a place to live and with getting back on her feet. I feel they are being dragged through the mud for no fault of their own.

[marlap]

I feel really bad for Pator Lawless and his family! They seem like a normal family helping out a grandaughter who needed a place to live and with getting back on her feet. I feel they are being dragged through the mud for no fault of their own.

My heart breaks for Pastor Lawless and his family too.

[mama2jackson]

Thank you,

It is nice to hear that not everyone thinks he is some criminal in disguise. It made me furious :furious: to see his name dragged thru the mud.

JLB

[OkGrace]

Thank you,

It is nice to hear that not everyone thinks he is some criminal in disguise. It made me furious :furious: to see his name dragged thru the mud.

JLB

I understand. I thought he was being dragged from the beginning.....

[goofeegyrl]

And, kudos to the family of Huckaby for the words and manner in which they made their statement today.

[Ames]

Baptists will also allow people to be baptized again in the Baptist church. Say, if a child goes forward at the invitation then follows with baptism and goes on to later believe they didn't understand it all. That person could years later , even if after living a bad life for awhile, ask to be baptized again and the preacher will do it. Baptists consider the person a Christian, but not actually a member of the church until Baptism. When baptized, they become a member of the church that did the baptism.

My seven year old daughter just got baptized today. A baptism doesn't save a person, it is just to publicly admit that you have been saved. That is why a pastor will re-baptize a person, if they ask for it. If you are a Baptist, and you have been baptized before, in a different church...you can join the church by profession of faith...that is what my family did this morning, before my daughter's baptism. So, you do not have to be baptized in order to be a member of a baptist church...you CAN do it that way, but...you can also come by profession of faith, if you have been baptized in another church.

[daisy.faithfull]

Hi Everyone

I know i am brand new here, But i thought i could shed a little light on the subject. I know pastor Lane Lawless and his wife, and have my whole life. I have been to clover road baptist church a number of times. (I also have known the harris family my whole life). I can tell you, you will not find a nicer more genuine man of god anywhere. It breaks my heart to see this family going thru this. (I can not speak for the accused as i can not recall even meeting her.) It seems like there is a mob mentality for this man, that is so very undeserved.

Also for the person who wanted to know about Ted Huckabee, He is my grandfather, and he is not in the ministry.

Anyways thanks for listening. I will answer any questions i can.

JLB

How is Ted related to Melissa?

[FishingFunnyFrog]

Hi Everyone

I know i am brand new here, But i thought i could shed a little light on the subject. I know pastor Lane Lawless and his wife, and have my whole life. I have been to clover road baptist church a number of times. (I also have known the harris family my whole life). I can tell you, you will not find a nicer more genuine man of god anywhere. It breaks my heart to see this family going thru this. (I can not speak for the accused as i can not recall even meeting her.) It seems like there is a mob mentality for this man, that is so very undeserved.

Also for the person who wanted to know about Ted Huckabee, He is my grandfather, and he is not in the ministry.

Anyways thanks for listening. I will answer any questions i can.

JLB

mama- I too feel heartbroken for the Lawless family. It's unfortunate that in a case like this everyone must be examined...especially Lane and Connie. I can't even imagine the pain they must be going through...grieving Sandra, grieving Melissa's depravity and mental state, anger toward Melissa, deep concern for Melissa's daughter, betrayal that Melissa would cause such pain to their community, possibly feeling ashamed before the Cantu family, maybe even feelings of guilt for Melissa's problems. It's terrible. The Lawless family seems like a close family and very humble and Godly people. I've enjoyed viewing their myspace pages...the grandkids appear to be great wholesome kids. I'm glad Melissa was arrested just before Easter so the family can take extra comfort in the cross & resurrection. God bless the Cantu's and the Lawless's as they begin their journey of healing and forgiveness.

[daisy.faithfull]

Thank you for having this thread and bringing up these points! It seems on the discussion thread no one wanted to talk about this man.....

Elepher...I have been searching and searching, and nothing seems to come up for him until California, although it said in his bio that he was "saved" in Wenatchee, WA. So, being from WA, I started sleuthing. It got me nowhere. I'm thinking another alias based on what I've seen so far. I searched under the man who baptized him, and he's from Omak, WA, and he has more than 1 alias as well. Now, I didn't want to bring this up before tonight, but I will tell you why the town Wenatchee made my ears perk up:

http://www.seattlepi.com/powertoharm/

Research the Wenatchee sex ring and you will see. Pertinent is that once sexual allegations were made, there was a snowball effect, but one would have to imagine that there was sexual misconduct in Wenatchee. It is stated that sex offenders in Wenatchee outnumber citizens 764 to 1. I'm heavily looking into this Tracy 60, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not implicating anyone here, but the word "Wenatchee" and the fact that I can't trace him there makes me uber suspicious.

That website you posted is scary. I went through this thread earlier in the day and marked it to take a look at latter. From the little I have been able to read I am most shocked at how many perps were female or mentally disabled.

I'm not sure if I understand the part that I bolded though, does that mean that for every person in Wenatchee there are 764 sex offenders? :waitasec:

I guess it is interesting that Lawless does have connections to this community, I don't know if we can make any assumptions from it though.

[passionflower]

That website you posted is scary. I went through this thread earlier in the day and marked it to take a look at latter. From the little I have been able to read I am most shocked at how many perps were female or mentally disabled.

I'm not sure if I understand the part that I bolded though, does that mean that for every person in Wenatchee there are 764 sex offenders? :waitasec:

I guess it is interesting that Lawless does have connections to this community, I don't know if we can make any assumptions from it though.

After reading article, I say WOW! How big is Tracy and Wentchee cities?

[SeekingJana]

Baptist often don't require the same amount of formal study or a degree from an accredited seminary as other denominations require. There isn't a great emphasis on theological education in many of the Baptist denominations. So it isn't that unusual that he was ordained 4 months after being called.

LOL, the pastors in large mainstream Baptist churches have doctorate degrees in Religion, and are paid a salary commisurate with the degree.

I noticed today when reviewing some of the case material that Lawless's church in Tracy has a big sign up stating that they are an Independent Baptist church.
So. all previous documentation regarding what they believe or don't believe now has the answer- unknown.I didn't know the specifics of the particular church when I was asked questions about doctrine.

Independent in a church name means they can believe and worship any way they want to without being responsible to a regional or national governing body. He might not have to have much college education, as small as that building is. . There aren't enough members to pay very well.

[SeekingJana]

Thank you FFF, I didn't know any Baptist churches did that. If this is one of those branches of the Baptist denomination, it wouldn't look so hinky after all.

The Tracy church where Lawless preaches is an Independent Baptist church. It's on their sign in the videos. That means they can decide to believe in whatever they choose to and do not have to adhere to any regional or national supervision or the like.

[SeekingJana]

Originally Posted by mama2jackson http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3594013#post3594013)
Hi Everyone

I know i am brand new here, But i thought i could shed a little light on the subject. I know pastor Lane Lawless and his wife, and have my whole life. I have been to clover road baptist church a number of times. (I also have known the harris family my whole life). I can tell you, you will not find a nicer more genuine man of god anywhere. It breaks my heart to see this family going thru this. (I can not speak for the accused as i can not recall even meeting her.) It seems like there is a mob mentality for this man, that is so very undeserved.

Also for the person who wanted to know about Ted Huckabee, He is my grandfather, and he is not in the ministry.

Anyways thanks for listening. I will answer any questions i can.

JLB

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He'd been a Baptist for 19 years by this time, and a minister for some years by this time ( 1979), but it is interesting that they are said to be visiting his step- mother, Esther Lawless relative.. not a Harris, LOL.
Does anyone know who Ted Huckabee is, as in, is he some kind of minister or something? The name sounds familiar.

A couple of other things- it says they lived in San Jose. CA in 1979. I think we need to add that to our places he lived and the date. In 1979, he is said in this society column note to be living in San Jose, CA.

Regarding the obit of Esther Lawless: George had 2 sons when he married Esther in 1955. Chances are, Lane Lawless is from Brewster WA, judging from this article.
Notice it says that Esther " followed the harvests". I guess this means that she worked in the fruit groves as a migratory picker?

Bold type added by me just now.
Huckabee WAS striking a nerve with me when I read the article with his name in it.. I made the above post on this thread, Post #63 on 04-09-2009 at 01:21 AM .
I have only discussed the reason for this in the private area previously, but I have a high degree of psychic ability. I don't try to make it happen, nor do I exploit it in any case on or off WS.
However, as you can see from the post, the name " Huckabee" with a slightly diffrerent spelling ( Huckaby) came to be an important name in the case AFTER the orignal post about Ted Huckabee, from a different family tree, was made. That's why the name Huckabee ( or Huckaby) stood out to me strongly before I even knew Melissa Huckaby's name.

I had honestly hoped this would not come up, and I am sorry that anyone was offended by such an innocuous remark. Nothing unseemly was said about Mr. Huckabee at all.

[Nora Charles]

I never noticed the "Independent" sign - indeed that does change everything. My background is primarily non-denominational so I certainly understand the range of beliefs Independent would encompass. Back to square one, although we did get an education in Baptist doctrine! It will be interesting to see what becomes significant as this case develops.

[SeekingJana]

I had read the short anonymous Lawless family statement in the local newspaper earlier today, but just now watched the two video clips of the family speaking.

Lane, Brian and Brett all three speak on 2 separate video clips, along with a dark haired lady whom I think is Brett's wife.
These people are extremely kind, generous in the midst of their own pain, and say they want the truth to come out, whatever it may turn out to be regarding Melissa.
I am very glad they came forward with a personal message of prayer and condolences for Sandra's family.

Both families have been hurt beyond adequate words by this senseless crime. Both families are victims of the murder, in different ways.
I won't be posting any longer on this thread about the Lawless family out of respect. They didn't do this, Melissa did.

Maria

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I never noticed the "Independent" sign - indeed that does change everything. My background is primarily non-denominational so I certainly understand the range of beliefs Independent would encompass. Back to square one, although we did get an education in Baptist doctrine! It will be interesting to see what becomes significant as this case develops.

Nora- which part of the Clover Rd. Baptist doctrine are you interested in? They had a pretty thorough Statement of Faith on the http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm webpage which is now taken down. I thought someone had copied the text onto websleuths but now I can't find it anywhere :waitasec: I can only find a cached version of the main page on that old website...not the "what we believe section". Did anyone take a screen shot?

[mama2jackson]

How is Ted related to Melissa?

He is not related to her their last names are different.

[SeekingJana]

He is not related to her their last names are different.

Both you and FFF should be able to read my post on this subject and see my clarification.
No one is interested in your grandfather for any reason in this tragic murder case. I made my explanation as clear as possible. It was never stated that anyone was interested in him. His name stood out to me early on for the reason I posted.

Thank you,
Maria

[Nora Charles]

Nora- which part of the Clover Rd. Baptist doctrine are you interested in? They had a pretty thorough Statement of Faith on the http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm webpage which is now taken down. I thought someone had copied the text onto websleuths but now I can't find it anywhere :waitasec: I can only find a cached version of the main page on that old website...not the "what we believe section". Did anyone take a screen shot?

Thank you, FFF. Someone posted the link a while back and I did read it. I have no idea where it is now though! LOL I think it was when we were discussing the fact that he was baptized on his wedding day. It was before Melissa came into view IIRC and we were really looking into statements and dates pertaining to Pastor Lawless.