Public Skeptical that Woman Raped, Killed Girl

[Columbo]

I find this scary, that people won't believe the facts, and that LE has done a great job in finding the right perp. What scares me is that if the jury is of a stubborn mindset that refuses to believe a woman can do this, justice will not be served. Some of the comments were very good.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

Public skeptical that woman killed, raped girl

By MARCUS WOHLSEN and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers
Saturday, April 18, 2009







http://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/minus.gifhttp://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/plus.gif


(04-18) 11:41 PDT Tracy, Calif. (AP) --
Callers have inundated the phone lines of Tracy police, saying it can't be. Veteran homicide and sex-crime researchers say they cannot recall a case quite like it. Even the investigators themselves looked at the evidence and initially said "no way."



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Aryan Nations recruiting again in northern Idaho (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/national/a131338D83.DTL) 04.18.09



A woman was accused not only of killing someone else's child, but of raping her
Law enforcement officials and other experts say the allegations against Melissa Huckaby in the slaying of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu are remarkably rare over decades of U.S. police work.
Huckaby was charged Tuesday with murdering her daughter's playmate, with the added special circumstances of rape with a foreign object, lewd or lascivious conduct with a child under 14 and murder in the course of a kidnapping. The 28-year-old divorced mother is due back in court Friday, when she is expected to enter a plea.
Sandra's body was found on April 6 — 10 days after she went missing. It was stuffed in a suitcase that was pulled from an irrigation pond near Tracy, a small town where San Francisco's suburbs meet California's farm belt.
Tracy police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said dozens of callers a day have insisted that Huckaby could not have acted alone, that no mother would rape another's child, that the scenario was too improbable to be true. The case is so striking that police initially shared the public's reaction.
The investigators themselves, when first confronted with the evidence that pointed to Huckaby, were inclined to look for another suspect.

Associated Press Writer Evelyn Nieves contributed to this report.




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[Kat]

Thanks for posting this columbo, it looks like the general public in Tracy is having a hard time accepting that this suspect commited this crime on her own.

I did at first. So I do understand.

[Columbo]

Thanks for posting this columbo, it looks like the general public in Tracy is having a hard time accepting that this suspect commited this crime on her own.

I did at first. So I do understand.

You're welcome, Kat.

[panthera]

Thanks for posting this. :) I saw it over at msnbc.com also, and I admit I was at first skeptical, but I also trust LE and if they do not believe others were involved I will accept it. Now my only concern will be the jury and what they believe. They may have to believe it though without ever knowing what the motive was. MOO

[txsvicki]

After LE having enough evidence and making the arrest, I've had no doubt who did it, but have wondered if it wasn't due to pedophile sexual reasons but something very diabolical and calculating to try and make it look like a man was running around harming children in her trailer park. Melissa does seem to try and make herself look like a victim with husbands and other accusations.

[Columbo]

After LE having enough evidence and making the arrest, I've had no doubt who did it, but have wondered if it wasn't due to pedophile sexual reasons but something very diabolical and calculating to try and make it look like a man was running around harming children in her trailer park. Melissa does seem to try and make herself look like a victim with husbands and other accusations.

Interesting idea...she is definitely diabolical, no matter what.

[Columbo]

Thanks for posting this. :) I saw it over at msnbc.com also, and I admit I was at first skeptical, but I also trust LE and if they do not believe others were involved I will accept it. Now my only concern will be the jury and what they believe. They may have to believe it though without ever knowing what the motive was. MOO

I'm worried about the jury, too, panthera. The defense may have a way of picking out people with fixed ideas, who refuse to accept that there is an aberration like Melissa's behavior--I hope not. Maybe I am underestimating people.

[nursebeeme]

"When investigators were first looking at this they went 'Huh, no way... Who did she work with?'" Sheneman said. "We got that info and said 'there's no way, that doesn't happen.'"

"After this case, I'll never say never again," Sheneman said, adding that police remain confident that Huckaby acted alone.


http://www.tracypress.com/pages/full_story?page_label=home&id=2345986-Public+skeptical+that+woman+killed-+raped+girl&article-Public%20skeptical%20that%20woman%20killed-%20raped%20girl%20=&widget=push&instance=home_news_bullets&open=&

I found what Sheneman had to say very interesting..... I still have lots of "what?"s running thru my head that she did this alone. It sure seems, up to now, to be the case. (Pass the duct tape... I need to wrap my head on this one.)

[nursebeeme]

I'm worried about the jury, too, panthera. The defense may have a way of picking out people with fixed ideas, who refuse to accept that there is an aberration like Melissa's behavior--I hope not. Maybe I am underestimating people.
I am worried too! And thank you for starting this thread, Columbo! The quote that I just posted above from Sheneman surly hints at the fact that they tried twenty ways to Sunday to figure out WHO was working with her and when all the facts pointed at her alone they still couldn't believe it. Seems to me that those cops must have had pretty good evidence pointing toward Huckaby alone to believe it themselves. If the evidence is that convincing I think it would convince a jury (nurse prays!)

[panthera]

After LE having enough evidence and making the arrest, I've had no doubt who did it, but have wondered if it wasn't due to pedophile sexual reasons but something very diabolical and calculating to try and make it look like a man was running around harming children in her trailer park. Melissa does seem to try and make herself look like a victim with husbands and other accusations.
At the moment, I too am thinking this might be what happened. The primary idea could've been to murder Sandra (for whatever reason, I won't guess) but then to cover it up with the sexual assault to make it look like a male SO did it, in a cruel and sadistic way to instill fear in everyone that their child could be next. MOO

[panthera]

I'm worried about the jury, too, panthera. The defense may have a way of picking out people with fixed ideas, who refuse to accept that there is an aberration like Melissa's behavior--I hope not. Maybe I am underestimating people.
And the State has their preemptive challenges they can use to disqualify as many of these types of people as possible. :) MOO

[Salem]

I think if the evidence is good the jury will find her guilty. I am waiting to see what happens now that MH has an attorney. I am still not convinced she worked alone - however, I am not convinced that she didn't either. I'm sitting high on the fence :)

I'm still thinking there was some filming going on. Until LE says there was NO evidence of filming, I'm still thinking that was the motive.

Salem

[MCDRAW]

I think if the evidence is good the jury will find her guilty. I am waiting to see what happens now that MH has an attorney. I am still not convinced she worked alone - however, I am not convinced that she didn't either. I'm sitting high on the fence :)

I'm still thinking there was some filming going on. Until LE says there was NO evidence of filming, I'm still thinking that was the motive.

Salem


I am with you on the fence sitting. If it turns out filming was the motive than I definitely believe that someone else was involved. But I know the evidence is pointing to her and her alone right now.

[Columbo]

I am worried too! And thank you for starting this thread, Columbo! The quote that I just posted above from Sheneman surly hints at the fact that they tried twenty ways to Sunday to figure out WHO was working with her and when all the facts pointed at her alone they still couldn't believe it. Seems to me that those cops must have had pretty good evidence pointing toward Huckaby alone to believe it themselves. If the evidence is that convincing I think it would convince a jury (nurse prays!)

You're welcome, nursebeeme!
I am sure that she did this alone. I think she would have ratted out any accomplices by now, if she had had any.

[oceanblueeyes]

You're welcome, nursebeeme!
I am sure that she did this alone. I think she would have ratted out any accomplices by now, if she had had any.

I do too Columbo. Melissa seems to relish in trying to present herself as being a victim so I am sure if someone else was involved she would have sung like a canary blaming them instead of herself for these crimes.

If this case goes to trial I think they will find a jury that will be willing to hear the evidence and base their decisions on that. I think this case will be a wake up call and more and more people will realize that females can be and probably are, sexual predators, much more often than we suspected.

imo

[Columbo]

And the State has their preemptive challenges they can use to disqualify as many of these types of people as possible. :) MOO

Thank you for that!!! Gotta stay positive....

[nursebeeme]

does anyone else remember back in the day when knives at school were the deadly weapon? Than time passed and some kind of line was crossed and it became guns.

This case disturbs me deeply on many levels... but the level which disturbs me deepest is that this case has crossed a similar sort of societal line. I pray that it hasn't but I cannot quite shake that feeling.....

[warbuckle]

This is unbelievable. I am always catching slack because I am one of the very rare posters who actually believe KC should not get the DP. I am usually always defending people with the law, but MH no way. I 100% believe she killed Sandra. I am not 100% sure she raped her but just need more evidence about the timing or if the object was found?

[yosande]

I find this scary, that people won't believe the facts, and that LE has done a great job in finding the right perp. What scares me is that if the jury is of a stubborn mindset that refuses to believe a woman can do this, justice will not be served. Some of the comments were very good.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

Public skeptical that woman killed, raped girl

By MARCUS WOHLSEN and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers
Saturday, April 18, 2009







http://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/minus.gifhttp://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/plus.gif


(04-18) 11:41 PDT Tracy, Calif. (AP) --
Callers have inundated the phone lines of Tracy police, saying it can't be. Veteran homicide and sex-crime researchers say they cannot recall a case quite like it. Even the investigators themselves looked at the evidence and initially said "no way."



Images

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/04/18_t/ba-tracy18_ph_hu_0500029833_t.gif (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&o=0)http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/03/29_t/ba-tracygirl30_p_0499967379_t.gif (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&o=1) http://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/utils/plus-green.gif View Larger Images (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&o=)

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Aryan Nations recruiting again in northern Idaho (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/national/a131338D83.DTL) 04.18.09



A woman was accused not only of killing someone else's child, but of raping her
Law enforcement officials and other experts say the allegations against Melissa Huckaby in the slaying of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu are remarkably rare over decades of U.S. police work.
Huckaby was charged Tuesday with murdering her daughter's playmate, with the added special circumstances of rape with a foreign object, lewd or lascivious conduct with a child under 14 and murder in the course of a kidnapping. The 28-year-old divorced mother is due back in court Friday, when she is expected to enter a plea.
Sandra's body was found on April 6 — 10 days after she went missing. It was stuffed in a suitcase that was pulled from an irrigation pond near Tracy, a small town where San Francisco's suburbs meet California's farm belt.
Tracy police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said dozens of callers a day have insisted that Huckaby could not have acted alone, that no mother would rape another's child, that the scenario was too improbable to be true. The case is so striking that police initially shared the public's reaction.
The investigators themselves, when first confronted with the evidence that pointed to Huckaby, were inclined to look for another suspect.
"When investigators were first looking at this they went 'Huh, no way... Who did she work with?'" Sheneman said. "We got that info and said 'there's no way, that doesn't happen.'"
"After this case, I'll never say never again," Sheneman said, adding that police remain confident that Huckaby acted alone.
Department of Justice data on U.S. homicides dating back more than 30 years highlight the unusual nature of this crime, said James Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University.
Of the more than 600,000 cases recorded — more than 90 percent of U.S. homicides since 1976 — only one comes close to the alleged circumstances of Sandra's killing, said Fox. The data did not include names and some other details; the Associated Press was unable to locate the case.
Researchers say the Huckaby case does not match the typical profile of sex crimes by females.
Women represent only 1 percent of all adult arrests for forcible rape and 6 percent of all adult arrests for other sex offenses, according to a Department of Justice report.
When they do commit sex crimes, women often are acting as accomplices to men, and their victims tend to be teenagers, said David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire Crimes against Children Research Center.
"It's very, very rare for women to molest children, and when they molest children it's very unusual for them to molest a child of this age," Finkelhor said. "It's unusual for women to kill children who are not their own."
Police have declined to publicly state where and how Sandra was killed, but they have said they do not have a motive.
"I find it really hard to speculate on the motivation," Finkelhor said.
Court documents and interviews with family members show Huckaby had a rocky personal life. She went through a divorce and bankruptcy and fought depression as she tried to hold down a job and raise a child.
In 2002, she won a restraining order against a boyfriend who had an extensive criminal record and a restraining order from a previous marriage, according to San Joaquin County court records.
She married John Huckaby in 2003, separated a year later and divorced in 2005. In divorce papers, Melissa Huckaby accused John Huckaby of child abduction, domestic violence and alcohol abuse — allegations he denied in an interview with ABC's "Good Morning America" on Friday.
Records show she was arrested in November and charged with burglary and petty theft from a store. The judge suspended the case and appointed a doctor to assess Huckaby's mental health. She was found competent to stand trial. In a deal with prosecutors, she pleaded no contest in January to the petty theft charge and the burglary charge was dropped.
Huckaby's attorneys could use the sheer statistical improbability of the murder case to cast doubt on the allegations, regardless of the evidence, legal experts said.
"Instinctively it doesn't feel like a good fit," said William Portanova, a Sacramento defense lawyer and a former state and federal prosecutor.
"It's an extraordinarily rare circumstance to have an adult female commit a sexual assault and murder on a female child alone," Portanova said. "So right off the bat, any attorney is going to be looking to disprove that theory."
___
Associated Press Writer Evelyn Nieves contributed to this report.




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I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this too bizarre to believe. I hope they have enough evidence and I hope they are looking further, like to FW. moo

[scandi]

I found this a poignant read today, including the Comments that follow her article:

Do Women Rape?
THE DAILY BEAST
Marcia Clark

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-16/huckabys-crazy-defense/

" . . . . “If you pitched me this story I’d throw you out,” a top producer who worked on a crime drama series tells me. “It’s too far out to be believable, even for television.”

[snapdragon]

This article is from the San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most liberal newspapers in the country. SF is about 50mi away from Tracy, yet eons away. I live in Tracy. Most of the folks here who have chosen to voice their opinion believe, although it is odd, that MH killed Sandra.

Remember, there is always the sentiment... he was so quiet... such a good neighbor. We hear that after many a mass murder has occurred. What is bothering people so much is that they cannot fit this into a tight little box that could never affect their world. It is a defense mechanism....

Similar to..... had a friend get lymphoma. Bad diagnosis, but pretty treatable. During treatment, a friend of hers kept trying to say "why" she got it... she used to smoke, she used pesticides, etc. She was trying to find some reason that excluded her from a possible fate as my friend. It is just human nature...

[snapdragon]

I don't think she's a molester, I don't think she's a pedophile. I also doubt she was molested as a child. I think she is psychotic. I think she raged on this child, and tried to inflict pain in the worst way possible. I don't think this was related to sex, but rage.

[yosande]

I find this scary, that people won't believe the facts, and that LE has done a great job in finding the right perp. What scares me is that if the jury is of a stubborn mindset that refuses to believe a woman can do this, justice will not be served. Some of the comments were very good.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

Public skeptical that woman killed, raped girl

By MARCUS WOHLSEN and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers
Saturday, April 18, 2009







http://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/minus.gifhttp://imgs.sfgate.com/graphics/article/tools/plus.gif


(04-18) 11:41 PDT Tracy, Calif. (AP) --
Callers have inundated the phone lines of Tracy police, saying it can't be. Veteran homicide and sex-crime researchers say they cannot recall a case quite like it. Even the investigators themselves looked at the evidence and initially said "no way."



Images

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Aryan Nations recruiting again in northern Idaho (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/national/a131338D83.DTL) 04.18.09
A woman was accused not only of killing someone else's child, but of raping her
Law enforcement officials and other experts say the allegations against Melissa Huckaby in the slaying of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu are remarkably rare over decades of U.S. police work.
Huckaby was charged Tuesday with murdering her daughter's playmate, with the added special circumstances of rape with a foreign object, lewd or lascivious conduct with a child under 14 and murder in the course of a kidnapping. The 28-year-old divorced mother is due back in court Friday, when she is expected to enter a plea.
Sandra's body was found on April 6 — 10 days after she went missing. It was stuffed in a suitcase that was pulled from an irrigation pond near Tracy, a small town where San Francisco's suburbs meet California's farm belt.
Tracy police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said dozens of callers a day have insisted that Huckaby could not have acted alone, that no mother would rape another's child, that the scenario was too improbable to be true. The case is so striking that police initially shared the public's reaction.
The investigators themselves, when first confronted with the evidence that pointed to Huckaby, were inclined to look for another suspect.
"When investigators were first looking at this they went 'Huh, no way... Who did she work with?'" Sheneman said. "We got that info and said 'there's no way, that doesn't happen.'"
"After this case, I'll never say never again," Sheneman said, adding that police remain confident that Huckaby acted alone.
Department of Justice data on U.S. homicides dating back more than 30 years highlight the unusual nature of this crime, said James Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University.
Of the more than 600,000 cases recorded — more than 90 percent of U.S. homicides since 1976 — only one comes close to the alleged circumstances of Sandra's killing, said Fox. The data did not include names and some other details; the Associated Press was unable to locate the case.
Researchers say the Huckaby case does not match the typical profile of sex crimes by females.
Women represent only 1 percent of all adult arrests for forcible rape and 6 percent of all adult arrests for other sex offenses, according to a Department of Justice report.
When they do commit sex crimes, women often are acting as accomplices to men, and their victims tend to be teenagers, said David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire Crimes against Children Research Center.
"It's very, very rare for women to molest children, and when they molest children it's very unusual for them to molest a child of this age," Finkelhor said. "It's unusual for women to kill children who are not their own."
Police have declined to publicly state where and how Sandra was killed, but they have said they do not have a motive.
"I find it really hard to speculate on the motivation," Finkelhor said.
Court documents and interviews with family members show Huckaby had a rocky personal life. She went through a divorce and bankruptcy and fought depression as she tried to hold down a job and raise a child.
In 2002, she won a restraining order against a boyfriend who had an extensive criminal record and a restraining order from a previous marriage, according to San Joaquin County court records.
She married John Huckaby in 2003, separated a year later and divorced in 2005. In divorce papers, Melissa Huckaby accused John Huckaby of child abduction, domestic violence and alcohol abuse — allegations he denied in an interview with ABC's "Good Morning America" on Friday.
Records show she was arrested in November and charged with burglary and petty theft from a store. The judge suspended the case and appointed a doctor to assess Huckaby's mental health. She was found competent to stand trial. In a deal with prosecutors, she pleaded no contest in January to the petty theft charge and the burglary charge was dropped.
Huckaby's attorneys could use the sheer statistical improbability of the murder case to cast doubt on the allegations, regardless of the evidence, legal experts said.
"Instinctively it doesn't feel like a good fit," said William Portanova, a Sacramento defense lawyer and a former state and federal prosecutor.
"It's an extraordinarily rare circumstance to have an adult female commit a sexual assault and murder on a female child alone," Portanova said. "So right off the bat, any attorney is going to be looking to disprove that theory."
___
Associated Press Writer Evelyn Nieves contributed to this report.




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What facts do we have because LE saying it, doesn't make it fact. MH saying it doesn't make it fact, so what facts do we really have?

She wasn't arrested until she volunteered to go down and talk with LE for hours.
Did they have enough evidence before she went down there? Then why wasn't she arrested before that?

She says it was her suitcase. Was it? I hope they can prove it.

She attempted suicide, it is said by razor blades, but we don't really know. Le hasn't said that. The family hasn't said that. Can we really believe it if she said it?

She confessed to writing a note with some words on it, suitcase, water, the name of a street, can't remember what else. This note was not found on her person, or in her home. It was found at the MHP entrance area. I hope they have some dna, handwriting analysis to back up her word.

I don't know what else they have. It's mostly her words.

Lots of people confess to crimes they don't commit.
Lots of women take the punishment if they think they're in love.
She is said to have very poor self esteem. This would be perfect for a perp to use.

So I hope they have more than what we have heard so far.

They do have a dead body.
They have the place she was found.
They have her on video going in the direction of MH's home.
I hope Sandra was able to tell them more.
I hope they have real physical evidence tying her to the crimes for which she is accused.
moo

ETA; They do have a witness that saw a certain truck, and a man where they found Sandra.
They do have a man leaving a note "from Sandra."
This man is a member of the same church as MH.
This man from my perspective is possibly an accessory after the fact, and obstruction of justice if he knew where she was, and he put the note at the memorial for his friend. But I'm of the opinion he is involved more than after the fact. That is moo.

Most of what we have heard is from reporters, and the media. Can they really be believed to have their facts straight?

[goofeegyrl]

This article is from the San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most liberal newspapers in the country. SF is about 50mi away from Tracy, yet eons away. I live in Tracy. Most of the folks here who have chosen to voice their opinion believe, although it is odd, that MH killed Sandra.


Respectively, this was on AP, as well as other sites, it's just being carried by the Chronicle site. That said, my guess is that this story was probably written to keep the story in the news around the country, as the media investigates every angle of it that they can think of investigating.

[nursebeeme]

What facts do we have because LE saying it, doesn't make it fact. MH saying it doesn't make it fact, so what facts do we really have?

She wasn't arrested until she volunteered to go down and talk with LE for hours.
Did they have enough evidence before she went down there? Then why wasn't she arrested before that?

She says it was her suitcase. Was it? I hope they can prove it.

She attempted suicide, it is said by razor blades, but we don't really know. Le hasn't said that. The family hasn't said that. Can we really believe it if she said it?

She confessed to writing a note with some words on it, suitcase, water, the name of a street, can't remember what else. I hope they have some dna, handwriting analysis to back up her word.

I don't know what else they have. It's mostly her words.

Lots of people confess to crimes they don't commit.
Lots of women take the punishment if they think they're in love.
She is said to have very poor self esteem. This would be prefect for a perp to use.

So I hope they have more than what we have heard so far.
moo WE have nothing... but LE had enough to arrest her and the DA had enough to file the charges. Sheneman said this:
The case is so striking that police initially shared the public's reaction.

The investigators themselves, when first confronted with the evidence that pointed to Huckaby, were inclined to look for another suspect.

"When investigators were first looking at this they went 'Huh, no way... Who did she work with?'" Sheneman said. "We got that info and said 'there's no way, that doesn't happen.'"

"After this case, I'll never say never again," Sheneman said, adding that police remain confident that Huckaby acted alone.


http://www.tracypress.com/pages/full_story?page_label=home&id=2345986-Public+skeptical+that+woman+killed-+raped+girl&article-Public%20skeptical%20that%20woman%20killed-%20raped%20girl%20=&widget=push&instance=home_news_bullets&open=&

[nursebeeme]

I was just reading back thru Sheneman's quote above... and echo him!

"After this case, I'll never say never again" ~

[yosande]

I don't think she's a molester, I don't think she's a pedophile. I also doubt she was molested as a child. I think she is psychotic. I think she raged on this child, and tried to inflict pain in the worst way possible. I don't think this was related to sex, but rage.

IIRC, LE said the body was not traumatised when first talked about it after they found her, which is why the molestation charge was a surprise. Some peeps speculated that she had been hit by MH's car, but no trauma means she wasn't hit. They have yet to tell us the cod.

[bp531]

I tend to trust LE that she acted alone. Nothing in this crazy world we live in
really surprises me any more. With that said , it also would not surprise me if something else comes up and they make another arrest. EVIL COMES IN MANY SHAPES AND SIZES.

[nursebeeme]

IIRC, LE said the body was not traumatised when first talked about it after they found her, which is why the molestation charge was a surprise. Some peeps speculated that she had been hit by MH's car, but no trauma means she wasn't hit. They have yet to tell us the cod. I am respectfully asking this Yosande but didn't you just say this:


What facts do we have because LE saying it, doesn't make it fact. MH saying it doesn't make it fact, so what facts do we really have?



my point being that if we cannot take what LE says to be a fact than at this point we are "factless" other than birth records we have managed to dig up. What that LE has said is a fact to and what is not. I guess I just wondered if you could clarify your thoughts on that. Thanks in advance and I am in no way meaning this to be snarky... :blowkiss:

[scandi]

What facts do we have because LE saying it, doesn't make it fact. MH saying it doesn't make it fact, so what facts do we really have?

She wasn't arrested until she volunteered to go down and talk with LE for hours.
Did they have enough evidence before she went down there? Then why wasn't she arrested before that?

She says it was her suitcase. Was it? I hope they can prove it.

She attempted suicide, it is said by razor blades, but we don't really know. Le hasn't said that. The family hasn't said that. Can we really believe it if she said it?

She confessed to writing a note with some words on it, suitcase, water, the name of a street, can't remember what else. This note was not found on her person, or in her home. It was found at the MHP entrance area. I hope they have some dna, handwriting analysis to back up her word.

I don't know what else they have. It's mostly her words.

Lots of people confess to crimes they don't commit.
Lots of women take the punishment if they think they're in love.
She is said to have very poor self esteem. This would be perfect for a perp to use.

So I hope they have more than what we have heard so far.

They do have a dead body.
They have the place she was found.
They have her on video going in the direction of MH's home.
I hope Sandra was able to tell them more.
I hope they have real physical evidence tying her to the crimes for which she is accused.
moo

ETA; They do have a witness that saw a certain truck, and a man where they found Sandra.
They do have a man leaving a note "from Sandra."
This man is a member of the same church as MH.
This man from my perspective is possibly an accessory after the fact, and obstruction of justice if he knew where she was, and he put the note at the memorial for his friend. But I'm of the opinion he is involved more than after the fact. That is moo.

Most of what we have heard is from reporters, and the media. Can they really be believed to have their facts straight?



Hi Yosande,

Like you said, they do have her body. It will undoubtedly seal the fate of her killer. I read MH gave them details to the killing so it must match. Whatever LE has evidence-wise in the case, it must be very telling as they seem so adamant she acted alone.

I also find it hard to believe that. Not because she couldn't effect the crime herself - the obstacles seem surmountable to me. But because she was friends with 2 men who are suspicious to me, both drawn into the case on a periphary level. And both of those men had many photos gracing her MySpace page!

[passionflower]

IMO, there is another person, a man.........a look out or the guy to have fun.
MH is so messed up that MH did this for her man........I cannot shake this gut feeling.
She is guilty as HE!! and she did this..........but I still feel she met a guy and had their kick and MH is keeping quiet about the secret. I feel MH will squeel soon...........OMOO
I'll eat my words if I am wrong!

[passionflower]

IIRC, LE said the body was not traumatised when first talked about it after they found her, which is why the molestation charge was a surprise. Some peeps speculated that she had been hit by MH's car, but no trauma means she wasn't hit. They have yet to tell us the cod.

and then LE was looking for a murder 'weapon'.........IIRC cord from a blind, now sexual object???

[oceanblueeyes]

IMO, there is another person, a man.........a look out or the guy to have fun.
MH is so messed up that MH did this for her man........I cannot shake this gut feeling.
She is guilty as HE!! and she did this..........but I still feel she met a guy and had their kick and MH is keeping quiet about the secret. I feel MH will squeel soon...........OMOO
I'll eat my words if I am wrong!

I respect your opinion passion but I don't think she did this for a man. I think she did this for herself and she loves playing the victim. If there was some big old bad man out there connected to this case she would be singing like a canary makimg her out to once be the victim.

I think she did these crimes to satisfy her own insatiable perverted desires.

imo

[scandi]

IMO, there is another person, a man.........a look out or the guy to have fun.
MH is so messed up that MH did this for her man........I cannot shake this gut feeling.
She is guilty as HE!! and she did this..........but I still feel she met a guy and had their kick and MH is keeping quiet about the secret. I feel MH will squeel soon...........OMOO
I'll eat my words if I am wrong!

She had a date very recently with CSinclair, right?

[Columbo]

She had a date very recently with CSinclair, right?

Scandi: Respectfully asking, where did you get this information? thanks! I may have missed out on news regarding her social life.

[nursebeeme]

Columbo... there really was no "verification' of the date other than a reporter asked her father about it when he was walking out from visiting her in the jail (I think the raw video may have been cbs13... it may be in the media thread). Of course the Father had no idea as he lives five hours away and did not seem to even talk all that often with his daughter.

[oceanblueeyes]

I was just reading back thru Sheneman's quote above... and echo him!

"After this case, I'll never say never again" ~

Maybe this case will open our eyes too.

And what better way to support the victims than to believe them if they come forward and say they have been raped or molested by a female they trusted.

If we keep thinking women cant do this then they will know they can get away with it and not be suspected or detected.

imo

[oceanblueeyes]

She had a date very recently with CSinclair, right?

I am not sure they ever nailed it down when she had a date with him. They seem to phrase it as one date though, imo.

imo

[Brattigirle]

IMO, there is another person, a man.........a look out or the guy to have fun.
MH is so messed up that MH did this for her man........I cannot shake this gut feeling.
She is guilty as HE!! and she did this..........but I still feel she met a guy and had their kick and MH is keeping quiet about the secret. I feel MH will squeel soon...........OMOO
I'll eat my words if I am wrong!

I have the same feeling, that there is a guy in the background, well if she chooses to cover for a man than it's her funeral. I do believe that she is involved but it feels like there is also someone else.

[SuziQ]

Ater hearing Sheneman's statements, I'm further convinced that alot of unsolved child murders and disappearances could be solved by incorporating the thought that females do commit sexual assaults and related murders.

I'm beginning to think that the stats that say crimes like MH's is rare, is terribly flawed and innacurate.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am not sure they ever nailed it down when she had a date with him. They seem to phrase it as one date though, imo.

imoYes, they did say she went out with him on Monday night. It only mentioned the single date tho.

[yellowlab]

She had a date very recently with CSinclair, right?

Would any of you know if the Sinclair guy is the one that used to take Sandra bowling ?

[aprilshowers]

I am with you on the fence sitting. If it turns out filming was the motive than I definitely believe that someone else was involved. But I know the evidence is pointing to her and her alone right now.


What about her filming to sell said film/cd/dvds and make money via internet and mail order? A snuff movie brings in LOTS of big bucks!

I wonder if they've found any cd's, dvd's or other such stuff?

She could have been showing her actions via a web cam also, and charging, or just for the thrill of it. When you're depressed and have borderline PD, you get bored with life easily, and NEED to make things happen. You crave attention, and will do anything to get it.

[arielilane]

Ater hearing Sheneman's statements, I'm further convinced that alot of unsolved child murders and disappearances could be solved by incorporating the thought that females do commit sexual assaults and related murders.

I'm beginning to think that the stats that say crimes like MH's is rare, is terribly flawed and innacurate.
Unfortunately, exactly.

[MCDRAW]

What about her filming to sell said film/cd/dvds and make money via internet and mail order? A snuff movie brings in LOTS of big bucks!

I wonder if they've found any cd's, dvd's or other such stuff?

She could have been showing her actions via a web cam also, and charging, or just for the thrill of it. When you're depressed and have borderline PD, you get bored with life easily, and NEED to make things happen. You crave attention, and will do anything to get it.


I just don't know if she is smart enough to think up this on her own. If so, I'm not sure she would have been living with her Grandparents.

[aprilshowers]

Geesh! Why don't these people just buy a DOLL! :furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:

[Kat]

I have given this a lot of thought since yesterday. I apologize, sometimes it takes me a while to process thoughts completely and fully, and to take into consideration all points of view.

I agree with the other posters that we only know that MH has been arrested and charged with kidnapping, murder and rape. I aknowledge that there very well could be other possible suspect(s) that LE are looking at right now and have not informed the media at this time. Even if LE has stated that they have no other suspects at this time, there may very well could be, and it would compromise the investigation to reveal this information.

I, personally, believe that this investigation is still active.

I, however, don't know of any other suspects that could be involved. I only know of the men that had SW served on their homes and property and given those are the only SW's we know about from the media, it's hard to say for sure who would have been involved if there was someone(s) else involved. There were a great many search warrants, IIRC and those are sealed IIRC.

I do think this~ TPD wants justice for Sandra. I have no reason to doubt that, and I have no reason to doubt that they will not arrest anyone else if it means they were involved.

They have arrested and charged MH. Now if there proves to be others involved, it by no means lessons MH's reponsiblity in this crime when this case is brought before court.

It boils down to CA law.(I have not read the definitions yet or the penal code and I really don't look forward to it to be honest) Say for example, in the state of FL ~ 3 ppl walk into a drug store to commit robbery. One of those ppl are carrying a gun, that person shoots and kills the drug store owner, all three go down for 1st degree murder. All three. Not just the one that carries the gun.

This is a tricky case. It's going to get very ugly before it's resolved and as always my continued prayers are for the Cantu family.

So we don't know how much of involvement that MH had in these crimes at this time (I say that for those who do believe that more will come out later) because we haven't seen any docs except the complaint. But I trust that LE has done their job and time will tell as to if MH commited these crimes and exactly what her role was in them.

Sorry to ramble but wanted to share my thoughts. I have made my personal stance here known many times, but wanted to be fair and consider all possiblities.

disclaimer: yes I am aware the crimes she has been charged with are alleged

[PattyCake]

I have no problem admitting I have a real hard time believing this. Its unimaginable to me...

that does not mean she didn't do it, it's just the rape part is the toughest part to swallow.

[stilettos]

I am under no such delusion when it comes to the depravity of man or woman kind. There is no gender to evil.

[daisy.faithfull]

And what better way to support the victims than to believe them if they come forward and say they have been raped or molested by a female they trusted.
imo

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[tapu]

I have no problem admitting I have a real hard time believing this. Its unimaginable to me...

that does not mean she didn't do it, it's just the rape part is the toughest part to swallow.


That's kind of where I was until I started reading some of the other comments, above. I CAN see it if, say, rage was the force behind the killing--MH was enraged with her life, her own kid, her mother, whatever--and somehow Sandra set her off. Then, in an effort to cover up the murder, she could have tried to make it look like rape so that a male with a different motive would be suspected.

What do you think?

[tiredofthis]

That's kind of where I was until I started reading some of the other comments, above. I CAN see it if, say, rage was the force behind the killing--MH was enraged with her life, her own kid, her mother, whatever--and somehow Sandra set her off. Then, in an effort to cover up the murder, she could have tried to make it look like rape so that a male with a different motive would be suspected.

What do you think?

Maybe, but would LE have labeled it rape if Sandra had already been dead when her body was violated?

[tapu]

Maybe, but would LE have labeled it rape if Sandra had already been dead when her body was violated?


Hm, good point. To call it rape, they must have evidence that it was not post-mortem. I don't know why but it is so much harder to imagine a woman raping a little girl and then killing her. The cover-up explanation feels more "right," but I see your point.

[VespaElf]

"Skeptical" just doesnt seem like they right word to me............is there a word for "I believe it but I hate believing it"???
This case is just surreal isnt it??? Im surprised Camille Paglia hasnt popped up yet to opine as this is quite an arguement for the feminist movement isnt it?? If a MALE accomplice had been arrested this would be a non issue,99.9% of the population wouldnt think twice about MH being quilty,BUT the same majority(and yes Im generalizing)arent as comfortable with MH being the LONE perperator are they?Why?Does thinking a man was involved lessen Sandra's horror or her family's pain?Does a man being involved make it better?It doesnt make it "understandable" as torturing & murdering a child will never be understandable so why cant we accept this?
I (call me naive)believe LE.I believe shes guilty.I also think if there was another involved they wouldve been arrested (the LE in this case appears very thorough,competent & effective)so we just have to "flip the script' and accept shes the (accused)guilty party and move on......wishing it wasnt so doesnt make it so.
Thinking about what Sandra went through..........I cant bear it......the tiniest thought of it makes me ill HOWEVER maybe acknowledging this,accepting it and learning from this will shed new light on other cases ,prompting fresh investigation on 'cold cases' and bring closure & justice for/to other families and change how LE profiles & investigates crimes?
As much as I prayed (and still do)for Sandra & her family I now pray that somehow good will come out of this vile,mind boggling tragedy and that Sandra didnt die in vain.
I believe MH murdered & violated Sandra.I have accepted she acted alone.

[Winnow]

I posted the first part of this in "'just the facts, maam" but thought it might be helpful here as well....

There are many legal definitions for commonly used terms which merit consideration.
Here are a few excerpts from the California Penal Code

California Penal Code 261: "Rape"
(4) Where a person is at the time unconscious of the nature of the act, and this is known to the accused. As used in this paragraph,"unconscious of the nature of the act" means incapable of resisting because the victim meets one of the following conditions:
(A) Was unconscious or asleep.
(B) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant that the act occurred.

California Penal Code 289: Foreign Object"
(1) "Sexual penetration" is the act of causing the penetration, however slight, of the genital or anal opening of any person or causing another person to so penetrate the defendant's or another person's genital or anal opening for the purpose of sexual arousal, gratification, or abuse by any foreign object, substance, instrument,or device, or by any unknown object.

(2) "Foreign object, substance, instrument, or device" shall include any part of the body, except a sexual organ.

-----------
LE did initially say that there was no sign of trauma.

If they found a cell phone pic of SC passed out with even someone's finger shown penetrating it meets the criteria for "rape with a foreign object".

We know Absolutely Nothing until all facts are revealed in court.

[oceanblueeyes]

I had no problem whatsoever believing Melissa Huckaby could solely be guilty of doing these dastardly and perverse acts.

Through years of reading and researching true crime it has become apparent to me that females can be just as predatory and vicious as any male. I have never believed the myth that women cant do crimes equal in sadistic cruelty and depravity as male offenders.

In fact it is my belief that this has long been covered up by our society and women where made out to be the safer gender. By blindly trusting and assuming a woman is safe I feel many young children who remained silent have suffered because of that belief.

I read an article not to long ago that said more than ever before women are watching porn. Imo that also includes kiddie porn showing torture and rapes of little babies and small defenseless children. Some women are not what we wished they were, but they too have the same predatory sexual lust for vulnerable naive children. They are the ones less caught. So I am not sure Melissa Huckaby is the first one. I think she is one among many. It makes me wonder just how many cases weren't solved because LE have had their own tunnel vision assuming the suspect was a male offender.

We have read horror stories about women who have held their young little child down so that a pedophile could repeatedly rape them. We have seen women sell their babies, neglect/torture and murder their own children.... so it is not a shock to me that a female deviant murdered another child not her own and raped/molested them. Evil cannot be defined by just one gender alone but both males and females can be treacherous and very dangerous.

I believe a lot has to do with how we have been brainwashed into thinking the female isn't capable of horrid sexual perversions and all the while they have counted on that societal view making it easy for them to do their destruction to children, based on the belief, that the child wouldn't be believed if they told on a female anyway. We usually don't even punish women in the same way in the justice system. Usually their sentences are not nearly as severe or they get full probabtion even when they preyed on a child. We, unknowingly have given them the tools to go undetected.

I don't think MH did this for anyone other than herself and to satisfy her own sick urges that raged within her. I do believe that Sandra died while being raped and molested. I do believe that the foreign object used could very well have contributed to her death.

imo

[passionflower]

IMO, I can accept that a woman can and will do such a surreal act.
I'm sure there are many others like MH out there.
I know LE can't tell everything to the public.
I still believe in my gut right now, that this is the tip of the iceberg.
I sure hope I am wrong!
With MH having boyfriend with a rap sheet that tried to interfere with LE in this case,
church building,computer etc..........working day and night, I think LE will come out with more info when tests come back, IMO
this case is still being investigated.......
it takes time to say it is all over.........
IMO, someone is squirming right now, will slip up and get caught with MH.......IMOO

[daisy.faithfull]

I find this scary, that people won't believe the facts, and that LE has done a great job in finding the right perp. What scares me is that if the jury is of a stubborn mindset that refuses to believe a woman can do this, justice will not be served. Some of the comments were very good.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/04/18/state/n114107D97.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea


First of all before I talk about Sandra, does anyone know who they are talking about here:
Department of Justice data on U.S. homicides dating back more than 30 years highlight the unusual nature of this crime, said James Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University.

Of the more than 600,000 cases recorded — more than 90 percent of U.S. homicides since 1976 — only one comes close to the alleged circumstances of Sandra's killing, said Fox. The data did not include names and some other details; the Associated Press was unable to locate the case.


The only case similar that I've learned about is Gertrude Baniszewski "who, with the aid of some of her own children and neighborhood children, such as Ricky Hobbs and Coy Hubbard, oversaw and facilitated the prolonged torture, mutilation, and eventual murder of Sylvia Likens, a teenaged girl she had taken into her home. When she was convicted of first-degree murder in 1966, the case was called "the single worst crime perpetrated against an individual in Indiana's history"(from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Baniszewski). The case occurred in the mid to late '60s and involved molestation with bottle. I am fearful that the reason no one can find that other case is because the accused was found innocent.

Anyway, as noted Sylvia Liken's murder was known as the worst crime in Indiana, and I would bet it would be in the running for worst crime in the US. GB was convicted. She was tried two times and eventually was paroled after nineteen years, but I would bet that we have advanced enough as a society to convict MH with a harsher sentence. Lets hope that happens. I'm alarmed that this murder occurred only three years before the Charles Manson murders, was much more horrifying, yet has not been so widely discussed as Manson's crimes. That could possibly indicate it was swept under the rug because the perp was a women, but I don't know.

I think that it is also important to consider that for some of us it has been hard for this to sink in. It is possible that the community of Tracy is experiencing something similar and just needs time before it can sink in. We can hope that will happen with the jury. They may be unable to accept that MH acted alone at first, but will come around with time. And of course a great case.

The prosecuters know what they are up against, their a#* is so on the line. I'm sure they are going to have more people working on the case, no way a public defender can match that. What's more, I'm sure the prosecutor's office has had cases with this PD before and has insights into their style. If MH is found not guilty I can't even image what that town is going to be like.

LE said that they were in disbelief that MH acted alone. I would bet that caused a lot of going things over to make sure they had it right. I am even more certain that because they are aware of the bias they going to work that much harder and make the case as airtight as they can.

Its possible that MH's grand-parents truly might have thought the MH had internal bleeding. If MH was freaking out enough to eat the blades its likely that she was showing some other strange behavior before she ate them. While she was at the hospital it may have been more of the same, especially when LE showed up and stood outside the door. All of those people can be called to the stand to testify about the behavior, the grandparents too. They would have the pooped out blades for evidence of MH's state of mind. Maybe she tried to OD on the drugs she used on Sandra, tox results would show that too. She was a twit to go there.

By the time she was driven to have her interview with police she was waving at the crowd, maybe she was having delusions maybe she was just a little cook-coo for coco puffs, I don't know. But she wasn't with a lawyer to tell her to keep her mouth shut and she was with two elderly people who after receiving such intense speculation themselves didn't even know how to deal with MH.

I don't know how they are going to prove the molestation since LE has indicated there was no trauma. It sounds like she has a history of drugging children. If she is a serial molester, maybe she took pictures for trophies. I don't know if they would have been able to produce DNA profiles for MH by the time she was charged, but the chances of them obtaining fluid are less with a woman perp. If they in fact do not have any rock solid proof of molestation maybe they are trying to get MH to plea to life w/o parole. She deserves the death penalty, but that would work and it would be better for Sandra's mom if there were no trial.

There is the possibility that because the crime is so horrific, once the defense gets the jury over the "hump" of believing that a woman committed these crimes they will be even more infuriated that they were committed by a mother and punish her accordingly.

I think getting over that 'hump" will be easier thanks to KC and the Anthony clan. I don't think anyone can hide from that case or from the overwhelming evidence against KC. KC proves to them that women are at least capable of murder. If KC is convicted by the time MH goes to trial, so much the better.

Even if the jury believes that she did it but had help, I don't think they will let MH off because that other person is unknown. I don't think it will be possible for MH to be found guilty. How could a juror even go home to their community if she wasn't. This is waaaaaaaaay beyond OJ.

[Kat]

I interpret the "no trauma" statement differently from most here. But, I have to go back and review when the statement was made to the media...I don't remember if it was before or after the ME's exam.

But IIRC, and it was a statement made prior to the statements that were made after the ME exam, then my interpretation was there was no trauma visable when the suitcase was opened and a cursory exam was performed.

I imagine the exam in order to determine trauma in that region of the body would be more involved given that Sandra had been, in my mind's eye, manipulated physically to fit into a suitcase of that size. I don't want to be more graphic in the description than that because it is a personal preference of mine to try not to post anything the family may read that would cause them more pain. Just me and my quirks.

[JoeFromLB]

First of all before I talk about Sandra, does anyone know who they are talking about here:


The only case similar that I've learned about is Gertrude Baniszewski "who, with the aid of some of her own children and neighborhood children, such as Ricky Hobbs and Coy Hubbard, oversaw and facilitated the prolonged torture, mutilation, and eventual murder of Sylvia Likens, a teenaged girl she had taken into her home. When she was convicted of first-degree murder in 1966, the case was called "the single worst crime perpetrated against an individual in Indiana's history"(from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Baniszewski). The case occurred in the mid to late '60s and involved molestation with bottle. I am fearful that the reason no one can find that other case is because the accused was found innocent.

Anyway, as noted Sylvia Liken's murder was known as the worst crime in Indiana, and I would bet it would be in the running for worst crime in the US. GB was convicted. She was tried two times and eventually was paroled after nineteen years, but I would bet that we have advanced enough as a society to convict MH with a harsher sentence. Lets hope that happens. I'm alarmed that this murder occurred only three years before the Charles Manson murders, was much more horrifying, yet has not been so widely discussed as Manson's crimes. That could possibly indicate it was swept under the rug because the perp was a women, but I don't know.

I think that it is also important to consider that for some of us it has been hard for this to sink in. It is possible that the community of Tracy is experiencing something similar and just needs time before it can sink in. We can hope that will happen with the jury. They may be unable to accept that MH acted alone at first, but will come around with time. And of course a great case.

The prosecuters know what they are up against, their a#* is so on the line. I'm sure they are going to have more people working on the case, no way a public defender can match that. What's more, I'm sure the prosecutor's office has had cases with this PD before and has insights into their style. If MH is found not guilty I can't even image what that town is going to be like.

LE said that they were in disbelief that MH acted alone. I would bet that caused a lot of going things over to make sure they had it right. I am even more certain that because they are aware of the bias they going to work that much harder and make the case as airtight as they can.

Its possible that MH's grand-parents truly might have thought the MH had internal bleeding. If MH was freaking out enough to eat the blades its likely that she was showing some other strange behavior before she ate them. While she was at the hospital it may have been more of the same, especially when LE showed up and stood outside the door. All of those people can be called to the stand to testify about the behavior, the grandparents too. They would have the pooped out blades for evidence of MH's state of mind. Maybe she tried to OD on the drugs she used on Sandra, tox results would show that too. She was a twit to go there.

By the time she was driven to have her interview with police she was waving at the crowd, maybe she was having delusions maybe she was just a little cook-coo for coco puffs, I don't know. But she wasn't with a lawyer to tell her to keep her mouth shut and she was with two elderly people who after receiving such intense speculation themselves didn't even know how to deal with MH.

I don't know how they are going to prove the molestation since LE has indicated there was no trauma. It sounds like she has a history of drugging children. If she is a serial molester, maybe she took pictures for trophies. I don't know if they would have been able to produce DNA profiles for MH by the time she was charged, but the chances of them obtaining fluid are less with a woman perp. If they in fact do not have any rock solid proof of molestation maybe they are trying to get MH to plea to life w/o parole. She deserves the death penalty, but that would work and it would be better for Sandra's mom if there were no trial.

There is the possibility that because the crime is so horrific, once the defense gets the jury over the "hump" of believing that a woman committed these crimes they will be even more infuriated that they were committed by a mother and punish her accordingly.

I think getting over that 'hump" will be easier thanks to KC and the Anthony clan. I don't think anyone can hide from that case or from the overwhelming evidence against KC. KC proves to them that women are at least capable of murder. If KC is convicted by the time MH goes to trial, so much the better.

Even if the jury believes that she did it but had help, I don't think they will let MH off because that other person is unknown. I don't think it will be possible for MH to be found guilty. How could a juror even go home to their community if she wasn't. This is waaaaaaaaay beyond OJ.

Great post!

I don't know what case they could be talking about. The Sylvia Likens murder occurred in 1965, and they're talking about cases since 1976.
But only 1 in 600,000 is similar to Sandra's killing?!
That's really something...

[oceanblueeyes]

IMO, I can accept that a woman can and will do such a surreal act.
I'm sure there are many others like MH out there.
I know LE can't tell everything to the public.
I still believe in my gut right now, that this is the tip of the iceberg.
I sure hope I am wrong!
With MH having boyfriend with a rap sheet that tried to interfere with LE in this case,
church building,computer etc..........working day and night, I think LE will come out with more info when tests come back, IMO
this case is still being investigated.......
it takes time to say it is all over.........
IMO, someone is squirming right now, will slip up and get caught with MH.......IMOO

A boyfriend?:waitasec: All I have heard that she may have possibly had one date with Sinclair.

I think LE has investigated Sinclair thoroughly and found he had no involvement.

imo

[daisy.faithfull]

and then LE was looking for a murder 'weapon'.........IIRC cord from a blind, now sexual object???

Wasn't there some kind of strangulation device found on little JonBenet and the strangulation was connected to pedophiles?

[oceanblueeyes]

I interpret the "no trauma" statement differently from most here. But, I have to go back and review when the statement was made to the media...I don't remember if it was before or after the ME's exam.

But IIRC, and it was a statement made prior to the statements that were made after the ME exam, then my interpretation was there was no trauma visible when the suitcase was opened and a cursory exam was performed.

I imagine the exam in order to determine trauma in that region of the body would be more involved given that Sandra had been, in my mind's eye, manipulated physically to fit into a suitcase of that size. I don't want to be more graphic in the description than that because it is a personal preference of mine to try not to post anything the family may read that would cause them more pain. Just me and my quirks.

I think the overall view of Sandra's body externally showed no visible signs of trauma and that is why Sgt. S. said what he did. I believe the trauma she suffered was internal genital trauma.

imo

[daisy.faithfull]

I interpret the "no trauma" statement differently from most here. But, I have to go back and review when the statement was made to the media...I don't remember if it was before or after the ME's exam.

But IIRC, and it was a statement made prior to the statements that were made after the ME exam, then my interpretation was there was no trauma visable when the suitcase was opened and a cursory exam was performed.

I imagine the exam in order to determine trauma in that region of the body would be more involved given that Sandra had been, in my mind's eye, manipulated physically to fit into a suitcase of that size. I don't want to be more graphic in the description than that because it is a personal preference of mine to try not to post anything the family may read that would cause them more pain. Just me and my quirks.

I think I have the same question you do. I'm wondering if the "no trauma" report was only describing the external body, not necessarily its internal structures.

I hope that you will post what you find! :)

[Dr. Know?]

"Skeptical" just doesnt seem like they right word to me............is there a word for "I believe it but I hate believing it"???
This case is just surreal isnt it??? Im surprised Camille Paglia hasnt popped up yet to opine as this is quite an arguement for the feminist movement isnt it?? If a MALE accomplice had been arrested this would be a non issue,99.9% of the population wouldnt think twice about MH being quilty,BUT the same majority(and yes Im generalizing)arent as comfortable with MH being the LONE perperator are they?Why?Does thinking a man was involved lessen Sandra's horror or her family's pain?Does a man being involved make it better?It doesnt make it "understandable" as torturing & murdering a child will never be understandable so why cant we accept this?
I (call me naive)believe LE.I believe shes guilty.I also think if there was another involved they wouldve been arrested (the LE in this case appears very thorough,competent & effective)so we just have to "flip the script' and accept shes the (accused)guilty party and move on......wishing it wasnt so doesnt make it so.
Thinking about what Sandra went through..........I cant bear it......the tiniest thought of it makes me ill HOWEVER maybe acknowledging this,accepting it and learning from this will shed new light on other cases ,prompting fresh investigation on 'cold cases' and bring closure & justice for/to other families and change how LE profiles & investigates crimes?
As much as I prayed (and still do)for Sandra & her family I now pray that somehow good will come out of this vile,mind boggling tragedy and that Sandra didnt die in vain.
I believe MH murdered & violated Sandra.I have accepted she acted alone.

I thank you for your post. I believe a woman is capable of this act. Alone.

[daisy.faithfull]

Great post!

I don't know what case they could be talking about. The Syvlia Likens murder occurred in 1965, and they're talking about cases since 1976.
But only 1 in 600,000 is similar to Sandra's killing?!
That's really something...

Thank you JoeFromLB!

Does anyone have any idea which case the article is referring to? I'm surprised that the reporter couldn't find anything. You would think that something so unusual would be easy to recall.:waitasec:

[PattyCake]

That's kind of where I was until I started reading some of the other comments, above. I CAN see it if, say, rage was the force behind the killing--MH was enraged with her life, her own kid, her mother, whatever--and somehow Sandra set her off. Then, in an effort to cover up the murder, she could have tried to make it look like rape so that a male with a different motive would be suspected.

What do you think?

I originally thought maybe she wanted to make money in kiddie porn but mostly I think it's easier for me to believe she set it up to look like a rape. Does anyone know if they can tell if injuries causes to vaginal area was post mortem, even if it was quite immediate after death?

God this is just so hard to think about this happening to children. :furious:

[daisy.faithfull]

I originally thought maybe she wanted to make money in kiddie porn but mostly I think it's easier for me to believe she set it up to look like a rape. Does anyone know if they can tell if injuries causes to vaginal area was post mortem, even if it was quite immediate after death?

God this is just so hard to think about this happening to children. :furious:

Yes, injuries do look different depending on if the person is alive or dead. At least that is what I understand from watching CSI, it seems like it happens a lot on those shows and the ME always explains how they know when the wound occurred. :D I guess our skin reacts differently when there is no blood flow, so swelling, bruising, bleeding or other normal reactions that skin has to being traumatized. There is just the scrape or cut etc. Hope that helps!:crazy:

[Silver~Bell]

It didn't make national news but in Midland Texas there was a woman who attacked a cabbie, stabbed him and dragged him down a gravel road in town. WITHOUT any male partner. She had before also attacked and tried to strangle a pregnant cashier to death at a local convenience store. At her hearing, it was noted that she was having to be kept in isolation due to attacking and trying to sexually attack other women in the jail.

If people are having such a difficult time with the "no male involved" thing, they might think of it this way: there may not have been any male PRESENT but I bet feelings of jealousy against little Sandra and wanting to get attention FROM MALES/sex partners was behind the attack. So a "male" IDEA is present, do you know what I mean? A male motivation, or a sexual motivation in the attack. Not saying MALES have anything to do with the crime directly, just saying that I bet she was motivated by wanting attention, evidently has done all sorts of stunts for attention.

[Veritas]

In the 1980's I had a friend whose 2 year old grand daughter had been raped on several occasions by her 17 year old female babysitter -- one implement was an unheated curling iron. She acted alone. The toddler was under therapy for years; the teen was "dealt with" under juvenile courts--no idea what happened because it was very hush hush (small town, victim's family prominant.) I've always wondered what became of that abuser and whether she continued to abuse, protected by sealed juvenile records--and ever since never doubted what any human of either gender can do when evil is present.

[daisy.faithfull]

I found this a poignant read today, including the Comments that follow her article:

Do Women Rape?
THE DAILY BEAST
Marcia Clark

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-16/huckabys-crazy-defense/


I think that Marcia Clark rocks! :) The article was really interesting. It made me think about what I had said earlier about Casey and the Anthonys making it easier for people to believe that MH could commit such horrors. I still think so, just not as strongly. I know that Casey didn't molest little Caylee, but she was Caylee's mother. Motherhood is a special bond that is a far cry from the bond with the mother of a friend or babysitter. The first mother to murder her children I ever heard about was Susan Smith, and I was almost as horrified as I am today hearing about what MH is charged with. When I heard about Caylee I was saddened, by sadly not shocked.

I also think that these days, with everything that has happened (Oklahoma, Columbine, The World Trade Center, Virgina Tech, Warren Jeffs/FLDS sex crimes, DC Sniper and all the crimes similar to those just mentioned) we live in an era where we aren't as shocked with being shocked.:sheesh:

I found hope in this comment she made when talking about how the insanity plea would not work for MH: "even though she allegedly placed the body in a suitcase and sunk it in an irrigation pond—there is nothing that could make a jury understand or forget the hideous fact, if proven, she defiled a little girl. The fastest verdicts I ever prosecuted were molestation cases—I once saw a jury convict on nine counts in 20 minutes flat." I look at that as saying that what may be the achilles heal of the case may also be its greatest asset in the pursuit of justice. This case is about pure evil, it has none of the Andrea Yates "I was saving my child" sympathy plea as Marcia Clark mentioned. And sure MH sought mental health services, but I don't think that she faced any of the obstacles like AY's husband was to getting that treatment.

By all appearances so far MH's family has none of the Anthony's dysfunction. So while a history of abuse may get her some sympathy, unless she was abused by a family member that is going to be overshadowed by a family that is heavily involved in the church.

Anyway thanks for the article I think I may have read it before my head began to calm down enough to really process stuff like that.

[Logger]

It doesn't really matter what the "public" thinks a woman is capable of. In our justice system it is up to the judge and jury. We only know what the media has presented.
When all the evidence and circumstances come out we can be skeptical or convinced.

It is too early to tell.

[tapu]

I agree that post-mortem trauma is identifiable, but what if MH thought Sandra were dead and she wasn't quite (sickening to consider but bear with me here), and in an attempt to cover the killing, MH went ahead and abused Sandra and then she died?

Geez, it's a drag to think about this stuff so closely! :mad:

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree that post-mortem trauma is identifiable, but what if MH thought Sandra were dead and she wasn't quite (sickening to consider but bear with me here), and in an attempt to cover the killing, MH went ahead and abused Sandra and then she died?

Geez, it's a drag to think about this stuff so closely! :mad:

Frankly, imo, in the end I don't think it is going to matter if it was right before her death or immediately afterward. If the DA can show the evidence (and I think they can) that Sandra was raped with a foreign object and the jury believes that it was done by Melissa Huckaby she will receive the harshest punishment available. Sandra represents innocence and Huckaby destroyed that innocence.

imo

[Columbo]

I interpret the "no trauma" statement differently from most here. But, I have to go back and review when the statement was made to the media...I don't remember if it was before or after the ME's exam.

But IIRC, and it was a statement made prior to the statements that were made after the ME exam, then my interpretation was there was no trauma visable when the suitcase was opened and a cursory exam was performed.

I imagine the exam in order to determine trauma in that region of the body would be more involved given that Sandra had been, in my mind's eye, manipulated physically to fit into a suitcase of that size. I don't want to be more graphic in the description than that because it is a personal preference of mine to try not to post anything the family may read that would cause them more pain. Just me and my quirks.

I think you are right about the "No trauma" statement. It was before the ME exam came back, and besides--I wonder if Sheneman would have revealed anything at that point, even if there were visible signs of trauma. LE has to omit information sometimes if it's an ongoing investigation .

[Kat]

Ty you Columbo...I spent this morning trying to find the earliest mention of the trauma reference in the first days after Sandra was found.

I found a reference, I hope it is the earliest if not I apologize.

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_12105433

Posted: 04/09/2009 01:02:58 AM PDT

Police said a coroner's report on the cause of death for the 8-year-old girl has not been completed, but a source with knowledge of the investigation said the girl's body had no visible signs of trauma on initial examination.



I hate to sound so picky. But the actual phrase used that I can find is not no signs of trauma. But... no visible signs of trauma on initial examination.

Very important words they are: visible and initial when they are added to the phrase "no signs of trauma" dont' you think? Or am I reading too much into?

[Columbo]

Ty you Columbo...I spent this morning trying to find the earliest mention of the trauma reference in the first days after Sandra was found.

I found a reference, I hope it is the earliest if not I apologize.

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_12105433

Posted: 04/09/2009 01:02:58 AM PDT



I hate to sound so picky. But the actual phrase used that I can find is not no signs of trauma. But... no visible signs of trauma on initial examination.

Very important words they are: visible and initial when they are added to the phrase "no signs of trauma" dont' you think? Or am I reading too much into?

Thanks, Kat! You aren't being picky or reading too much into it. I think we are all in a position of hanging on to every word we hear from LE, trying to figure out what MH did to poor Sandra. Also, Sheneman might have been holding back a bit to preserve the integrity of the case.

The "initial examination" might be perfunctory--it would be if I were the cop, I wouldn't be able to look (I know they have to, as sad, horrifying and awful as it is). Also, with the body having been deteriorating for 2 weeks in the water, the "initial examination" might not reveal too much.