Canada-Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #5

[hoppyfrog]

Continue here.

[doubletrouble]

in my previous post the recap of the presser..typed fast and with lots of typos...i inserted victorias name and tori at times instead of typing out my daughter...thinking back, tara only mentioned victoria one time in that presser...rod on other hand said victoria, tori, my baby, my child, my daughter, our daughter, ..tara spent more time talking about her...she is popular on facebook...she doesnt get any negative messages only three...omg( that is so casey speak) and she stated in the beginning that the topic of todays presser was basically HER dissatisfaction with how the media has been handaling things....gone totally out of control

[Flowercb]

Someone needs to sit down with these two before the pressers and help them bring the focus on their daughter. Chose a few tidbits to share and then repeat, repeat, repeat, that there is a $50,000 REWARD!!!!! for any information that leads to the arrest and/or conviction of person responsible for Tori's disappearance. Why haven't they held up the poster with this on it. It should be posted outside their house on a HUGE board. Just like executives have to get ready for board meetings in order to be effective, they need to have a game play, notes ready and be organized to get the best message out there. The woman reporter was helping today by asking the right questions but all she did was defend herself and saying we do ask for her to come home, etc. She needs to look into that camera and speak to that person directly and say something reassuring to Tori if she is watching, reading the paper, etc.

Why have the police not helped in keeping Tara and Rodney organzied and coached them both how to approach the media for maximum effectiveness. The media is a huge force for them and they need to use it to their advantage.

And lastly, get rid of the bouncer in the back. He only builds hostility and Tara is perfectly capable of defending herself and ending the conference when she feels that she is ready and has effectively addressed the media.

[Mazama]

in my previous post the recap of the presser..typed fast and with lots of typos...i inserted victorias name and tori at times instead of typing out my daughter...thinking back, tara only mentioned victoria one time in that presser...rod on other hand said victoria, tori, my baby, my child, my daughter, our daughter, ..tara spent more time talking about her...she is popular on facebook...she doesnt get any negative messages only three...omg( that is so casey speak) and she stated in the beginning that the topic of todays presser was basically HER dissatisfaction with how the media has been handaling things....gone totally out of control

It's very sad that Tara just doesn't seem to want to speak out to Victoria. If my child were missing...I'd be saying how much I loved them, missed them and that I was looking for them etc...Tara's response that she wrote a letter to Tori left me quite chilled.

[doubletrouble]

you know what i just realized? a poster..mazama sorry i hacked your handle..its on the previous thread..but was nice enough to explain that we can go back to the london free press and how to access all the previous pressers to watch over and over all we want...i had no idea we could do that...i was so grateful for that info...so i thought well today i wont do a recap in typing , errors and all, since you all can watch it at your leisure...but gosh darn golly what did i do? yep...typed it out...im sorry folks for the long read...im a creature of habit...but ill try hard to remeber tommorow that my written recaps are just a waste of bandwidth and to some thier time...so sorry

[crazyladi]

Here is how I see this. Tori is not alive. She wouldnt read that letter because she knows tori is already dead, plus even if she did read it, should would not cry nor show emotion. Even if she wasnt the one that did kill her she knows who did and she knows everything that did happen. I want so hard to say she is alive but I can't.

Tara complains about how everyone is reacting and all of that but seriously how can people give compassion when she doesnt even show an ounce of compassion for Tori.

She did not plea, she refused to. I can see why the ex husband in now in the picture at the pressers, he is hearing all this crap and he actually wants the focus to be on Tori. Either way drama or no drama doing what she is doing is keeping Tori's face in the media, so that there is good.

[Mazama]

you know what i just realized? a poster..mamaya sorry i hacked your handle..its on the previous thread..but was nice enough to explain that we can go back to the london free press and how to access all the previous pressers to watch over and over all we want...i had no idea we could do that...i was so grateful for that info...so i thought well today i wont do a recap in typing , errors and all, since you all can watch it at your leisure...but gosh darn golly what did i do? yep...typed it out...im sorry folks for the long read...im a creature of habit...but ill try hard to remeber tommorow that my written recaps are just a waste of bandwidth and to some thier time...so sorry

I don't think it is a waste of time, many of us appreciate any additional information that is posted. :):clap:

[Lexiintoronto]

you know what i just realized? a poster..mazama sorry i hacked your handle..its on the previous thread..but was nice enough to explain that we can go back to the london free press and how to access all the previous pressers to watch over and over all we want...i had no idea we could do that...i was so grateful for that info...so i thought well today i wont do a recap in typing , errors and all, since you all can watch it at your leisure...but gosh darn golly what did i do? yep...typed it out...im sorry folks for the long read...im a creature of habit...but ill try hard to remeber tommorow that my written recaps are just a waste of bandwidth and to some thier time...so sorry NO!!!! Your reports aren't a waste of anything - they're very useful!! I appreciate it when people like you take the time and effort to transcribe it - where else can we find a transcription?

Thank you for doing that for us today!!!

[Flowercb]

As a continuation of my last post--I am disappointed that the police did not say to her that it was not a good idea or bad or something about speaking out about the benefactor. They are so Mayberry. The OPP are too busy making up for lost time and the Woodstock Police are sitting back letting her say whatever. You would think that there was an expert out there that would help Tara chose her words carefully when talking to someone who literally has her child's life in her hands. You don't say to them, even if you drop her off we are still going to get you. Oh yeah that is certainly going to make them feel compassion towards you.

And Rodney, don't say if Tara did it we feel figure it out later. If I were her I would have kicked his a@@ when we got back in the house.

[Doodlelover]

Wow, I just drove past the presser at 1:05 and saw Tara in her super white coat live and in person and the first thing I thought was "WTH is she doing? Is she deliberately thumbing her nose at the public with her outfit" She looks exactly like that composite and she must know it.

I'm kind of bummed out because I just got a really bad vibe seeing her in person. I think she knows exactly what happened to Tori and who did it. She may not be directly involved but I think it happened because of her and her bf's lifestyle. Sad to say I think the same thing about Haleigh. Their abductions were the result of their parents poor choices.

[LuckyPenny]

As a continuation of my last post--I am disappointed that the police did not say to her that it was not a good idea or bad or something about speaking out about the benefactor. They are so Mayberry. The OPP are too busy making up for lost time and the Woodstock Police are sitting back letting her say whatever. You would think that there was an expert out there that would help Tara chose her words carefully when talking to someone who literally has her child's life in her hands. You don't say to them, even if you drop her off we are still going to get you. Oh yeah that is certainly going to make them feel compassion towards you.

And Rodney, don't say if Tara did it we feel figure it out later. If I were her I would have kicked his a@@ when we got back in the house.

Sometimes my mind changes, but more often than not I'm confident in the police and the job that they are doing with this case. I think there is more that meets the eye and I think they have to be hush hush for a reason. I think they know who did it, its just a matter of the details and where is Tori/what has happened to Tori now.

[Lexiintoronto]

About Tara not addressing Tori directly when the reporter pressed her to: If I asked any of you to addresss someone right now that you are missing from your life for whatever reason, and you know that there is a chance that it might reach them, wouldn't you take me up on the opportunity?

Even if I said, hey, I'm going to Italy today and I might bump into your cousin, is there something I can tell them for you? Is there something you'd like to say, because this chance may not pass this way again?

If I were Tara, as soon as someone put a mic to my face the first thing out of my mouth would be: Tori, we're looking for you, stay strong, I love you very much and want you here where you belong. To the person who has Tori or anyone with any information no matter how small, please have mercy on us and share the information with crimestoppers where you can remain annonymous.

Tara's demeanor does not fit with the circumstances.

[doubletrouble]

Here is how I see this. Tori is not alive. She wouldnt read that letter because she knows tori is already dead, plus even if she did read it, should would not cry nor show emotion. Even if she wasnt the one that did kill her she knows who did and she knows everything that did happen. I want so hard to say she is alive but I can't.

Tara complains about how everyone is reacting and all of that but seriously how can people give compassion when she doesnt even show an ounce of compassion for Tori.

She did not plea, she refused to. I can see why the ex husband in now in the picture at the pressers, he is hearing all this crap and he actually wants the focus to be on Tori. Either way drama or no drama doing what she is doing is keeping Tori's face in the media, so that there is good.

I am 100% in total agreement with you. I couldnt have said it any better....she has/had no emotion...not once did she speak out to tori , yet twice a reporter gave her the opportunity..said if you could speak to tori what would you say...she never responded to tori..just that she has said all she can and just want her home and blah blah blah....
if we sleuthers were not compassionate folks, we would not be getting together here on weblsleuths, trying to find children, solve mysteries, answer questions...we spend our time on here because we are caring individuals..we care about others...we have hearts....but it is sooooooo hard to feel compassion, to try to understand the mother, when she shows no anguish, distress, heart break... how can we sympathize with her?
We lost a child(my neice Carlie) to an abduction rape and murder..that too caught on surveillance tape....and here i am 5 years later...i cannot even type these words without drowning the keyboard with my tears...Carlie was missing for only 5 days before she was found .... the 5 days of not knowing where Carlie is, what happened to her? is she alive? is she hurting? were the harderst, longest 5 days of my life, i would not trade one extra day for one million dollars...and im just her aunt... when they found Carlie, we were devastated...it was horrific...but as wierd as this may sound...it closed one chapter as far as the not knowing...we now know where Carlie is...i cannot imagine what natalie or madeliene or trentons parents go thru for so long to this day...
so it has been over three weeks and tori is gone...if the mother truly had no clue where she was,...she would not be calm(no xanax could cure), she could not think about herself, and money and her needs, and getting on the computer,.... i think of sandra c mom...that is a grieving mom who has suffered a horrific tragedy... i realize everyone reacts different to a situation...that is true...but to totally dismiss this in her mind, and tell herself oh tori is a hellion and giving them a hard time, but she is safe cuz psychics told me so...i just dont buy it...
she has to have inside info to feel so reassured and calm....my neighbor lost thier toy poodle two months ago (gate got left open) she was a spastic mess....running thru the streets screaming for days... something is just not right...i know it..i feel it...im certain of it...im sorry for another long post, i just wanted u to know where im coming from , and why i feel this way....

[doubletrouble]

and if this limo wealthy donor was with unlimitied resources was a fact....why would she not repeat this today....money folks....why not say the police are offering a $50k award as well...why not hold up a picture, a poster...but whats most telling, is why not look into the camera, opportunity given and asked twice to tell tori to stay strong....or something to tori...writing her a 3 page letter...well, im getting myself worked up...

[LuckyPenny]

Someone earlier was asking about the family details .. found this ..

Tori's Family Tree
Sat Apr 18, 4:31 AM



VICTORIA 'TORI' STAFFORD


The eight-year-old Woodstock girl, a Grade 3 pupil at Oliver Stephens public school, has been missing since April 8. A bubbly girl, who loves crafts and writing little poems and cards, she was last seen after school that day -- on security video shot from a nearby high school -- walking north with an unidentified woman along Fyfe Avenue in Woodstock.


TARA MCDONALD


Tori's mother, 30, a trained doula, has been separated from Tori's father Rodney Stafford for about six years. She's dated boyfriend James Goris on and off for a few years. She lives in Woodstock.


JAMES GORIS


McDonald's boyfriend, 31, he's dated Tori's mother on and off for three years. He has a criminal record that includes drug possession and theft under $5,000.


DOREEN GRAICHEN


Tori's paternal grandmother. She's been waiting with her other children for news about her granddaughter. Graichen has made purple ribbons (Tori's favourite colour) as a show of support. She lives in Ingersoll.


JIM MCDONALD


Tori's maternal grandfather. In the early days, he said he couldn't eat or sleep because he was sick with worry about his missing granddaughter.


DARYN STAFFORD


Tori's brother, 10, he seems to understand the danger his sister could be in. He recently told an uncle that whomever took Tori should be charged.


RODNEY STAFFORD


Tori's father. The 33-year-old has returned to school and will soon complete his high school education. He hopes to have a career in corrections. He and McDonald separated about six years ago. He lives in Ingersoll.

[crazyladi]

Im sorry to hear about your neice doubletrouble that is just so sad.

I am stuck on why the hell she doesnt want to speak to Tori. Shame? Guilt? Does she even feel those things? After today that totally verified it for me that she is guilty. I cant even look at her without seeing right through her.

If they dont find her body soon I am going to be a total wreck until they do, Probably more of a wreck and she is not my child.

All the reporters are all over reading these posts as well as FB because all of their questions were what were are all speculating. Thats good. Atleast they are asking questions that we are looking to get answers for

[Mazama]

I too know what it is like to lose a loved one. My grandfather was brutally murdered. It was only after a neighbor called police to say he had seen strangers going in and out of my grandfathers house did we find out that he had been killed. I cry every time I think about it. I've shed many tears over Victoria as well...my mind wanders and I can't help but wonder what she is going through or went through. I get very frustrated because I want to do more to help but am limited in my abilities because of my own family and distance from where she went missing etc.

I feel your pain.

[Recovering-Lurker]

O/T: doubletrouble - So sorry about your niece. If it's the Carlie I am thinking about, I remember that case. So sad.

[Flowercb]

Doubletrouble, so sorry to here about your niece. Yes I can see how this is very personal to you and hard to watch.

[justbetweenus]

Sometimes my mind changes, but more often than not I'm confident in the police and the job that they are doing with this case. I think there is more that meets the eye and I think they have to be hush hush for a reason. I think they know who did it, its just a matter of the details and where is Tori/what has happened to Tori now.

So you believe the OPP is offering a $50,000.00 reward for information leading to the arrest of Tori's abductor when they already know who it is?

ETA: Welcome to ws LuckyPenny

[justbetweenus]

you know what i just realized? a poster..mazama sorry i hacked your handle..its on the previous thread..but was nice enough to explain that we can go back to the london free press and how to access all the previous pressers to watch over and over all we want...i had no idea we could do that...i was so grateful for that info...so i thought well today i wont do a recap in typing , errors and all, since you all can watch it at your leisure...but gosh darn golly what did i do? yep...typed it out...im sorry folks for the long read...im a creature of habit...but ill try hard to remeber tommorow that my written recaps are just a waste of bandwidth and to some thier time...so sorry

No no no! Your transcripts of the pressers are very valuable. There are many on dial up, or at work that aren't able to watch the pressers, and want to know the details. Thank-you!

[another nosey mom]

Im sorry to hear about your neice doubletrouble that is just so sad.

I am stuck on why the hell she doesnt want to speak to Tori. Shame? Guilt? Does she even feel those things? After today that totally verified it for me that she is guilty. I cant even look at her without seeing right through her.

If they dont find her body soon I am going to be a total wreck until they do, Probably more of a wreck and she is not my child.

All the reporters are all over reading these posts as well as FB because all of their questions were what were are all speculating. Thats good. Atleast they are asking questions that we are looking to get answers for

Is Tara afraid to speak directly to Tori for fears that she will let something slip or say something in the past tense, etc??? Like, come on, you can't say you wished she was at home, I Love You, I miss you, we will find you, etc. she is very weird or sneaky or something:crazy:

[Danaya]

I am so sorry about your losses, good for you for being here on WS advocating for victims! I hope that the people(s) responsible for those crimes are in jail, how hard it would be not recieving due justice. If my son was ever hurt I would have a hard time not seeking revenge myself. The only thing that would stop me would be knowing my life would be over and I would be in prison.

Anyway, on the topic of Tori. I am pretty confident that a theory was presented in this forum that does not have to do with the Mother harming her daughter, atleast no directly. I feel that the theory may be what is happening right now and feel she may be alive. What do you think of that theory, if you read the links that were posted?

[nova1998]

Okay - here is what I came up with last night. Please bear an open mind when reading it. The video tape bothered me so much, I had to go through it again, but this time, frame by frame.

First, there are these ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_G7oH2iQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrMrXdy9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go19c89eIGc
Going through these frame by frame, I was confident there was no black stripe of sorts at the back of the jacket, nor any backpack, handbag, or whatever being carried on her lefthand side.

Next, this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
This one is 1:02 minutes in length.
From the 10 second mark to the 17 second mark: Does the boy look like he's been running and starting to slow down? Is he playing catch up to the woman and girl? If compared to other copies of the tape, that the boy may be running into the frame is hard to see because the others are slowed down. The speed in this version was the most natural looking which I could find.
From the 15th second to the 18th second: The woman turns her head toward the man. Going frame by frame, it looked like her head was swivelling to the right, not to the right and down, as in to the girl, but to the man. The first time I watched the surveillance tape, I assumed she was checking to her right for traffic before crossing. However, going frame by frame, the body movement didn't add up. I actual went outside yesterday and watched other people crossing the road from approximately the same angle, then I tried it myself several times - her head turns, but she doesn't twist her upper body along with her shoulders.
Looking at the same thing in this super-cropped version,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrM...eature=channel, from the 24th second to the 41st second, it strongly appears that she is focussed on the man. I went back and checked out the man frame by frame is this section, and there doesn't appear to be any kind of reaction. However, that doesn't mean to say that there was none - they may have been fighting, with the woman saying something to him and him ignoring him. Or possibly, something just casual - "you want anything from the store? No? Okay. See you in a bit." (Or of course, maybe no words at all).
I also watched the girl's movements to see if there was any reaction to the man, and I couldn't see anything pronounced. But that doesn't mean there there wasn't. There could have been some brief exchange of verbal words.
Now back again to this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
From the 17th second to the 19th second:The first boy briefly turns his head to the left looking back, possibly to the second boy seen at the 25 second mark. Perhaps the second boy called out to him.
At the 22nd second mark: the woman does seem to extend her right arm backwards - perhaps an instinctual reaction to holding the girl's hand while crossing the street.
At the 22nd and 23rd second marks: The boy reaches out with his arm and appears to touch the man. The man then appears to adjust the boy's hat, and/or perhaps glasses..

At the 25 second mark: a fifth figure enters the frame. You see this only for a fraction of a second. It just strengthened my impression that this key street, running along the side of the school, had quite a few people on it that day, making it very risky for a completely unknown abductor.

After watching this, I considered the possibility: Do they all know each other? Did the man and woman go towards the school, with the man stopping halfway to wait and the woman going on to get the kids. I mean, is this them, including the boy, being seen on tape? Doing some basic height comparisons from still photos of the boy and girl together, I compared the figures on the video, and they were very similar in height..

If you bear in mind that the police have never commented on the witnesses who assisted with the sketch (human witnesses and/or other surveillance tapes) nor on the other individuals on the tape (http://www.dose.ca/news/story.html?id=1520226), and if you consider the possibility of TM fabricating the 4:15 p.m. arrival time, this might make sense:
1. Something did happen. A missing persons report is filed at 6:06 p.m. that girl never returned from school. At this time they are unaware of the tape.
2. Tape is released. Should their faces be identified from the video, they would then be caught in a lie.
3. TM sets the time the boy arrived home as 4:15p.m., therefore dismantling any connection to the video. If he arrived home at 4:15 p.m., then it couldn't have been him or them in the video.
4. As a result of the release of the video, they have to go along with the abduction theory, which would then explain several things:TM's negative reaction when first asked about the sketch (April 22nd interview with CTV news); her response to the question of how she felt when looked into the eyes of the sketch (I believe the same video) - so much hestitating that sounds like is she making up the answer on the spot; that the money is going to a trust fund for the children, not for investigative efforts (this suggests that they already know the answer to what happened; and so on.

This is just an theory of course, ...nothing more.
My apologies for the long post.

[justbetweenus]

I too know what it is like to lose a loved one. My grandfather was brutally murdered. It was only after a neighbor called police to say he had seen strangers going in and out of my grandfathers house did we find out that he had been killed. I cry every time I think about it. I've shed many tears over Victoria as well...my mind wanders and I can't help but wonder what she is going through or went through. I get very frustrated because I want to do more to help but am limited in my abilities because of my own family and distance from where she went missing etc.

I feel your pain.

With the first mention of your GF I thought you might be one of my nephews, until I read the part about the neighbour, as my father was beaten to death in a home invasion. I feel your pain. (((Gentle hugs)))

Ps. Where is Kanata Ont?

[Flowercb]

Mazama, I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather. The elderly are just as vulnerable as children. How sad.

[Flowercb]

Justbetweenus, sorry about father also. How sad that the elderly are treated this way. An elderly woman in my town (86 years old) was mugged and raped by the seniors recreation center. They think the suspect was around 40 years old. What a sicko doing this to a helpless old lady.

[crazyladi]

Okay - here is what I came up with last night. Please bear an open mind when reading it. The video tape bothered me so much, I had to go through it again, but this time, frame by frame.

First, there are these ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_G7oH2iQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrMrXdy9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go19c89eIGc
Going through these frame by frame, I was confident there was no black stripe of sorts at the back of the jacket, nor any backpack, handbag, or whatever being carried on her lefthand side.

Next, this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
This one is 1:02 minutes in length.
From the 10 second mark to the 17 second mark: Does the boy look like he's been running and starting to slow down? Is he playing catch up to the woman and girl? If compared to other copies of the tape, that the boy may be running into the frame is hard to see because the others are slowed down. The speed in this version was the most natural looking which I could find.
From the 15th second to the 18th second: The woman turns her head toward the man. Going frame by frame, it looked like her head was swivelling to the right, not to the right and down, as in to the girl, but to the man. The first time I watched the surveillance tape, I assumed she was checking to her right for traffic before crossing. However, going frame by frame, the body movement didn't add up. I actual went outside yesterday and watched other people crossing the road from approximately the same angle, then I tried it myself several times - her head turns, but she doesn't twist her upper body along with her shoulders.
Looking at the same thing in this super-cropped version,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrM...eature=channel, from the 24th second to the 41st second, it strongly appears that she is focussed on the man. I went back and checked out the man frame by frame is this section, and there doesn't appear to be any kind of reaction. However, that doesn't mean to say that there was none - they may have been fighting, with the woman saying something to him and him ignoring him. Or possibly, something just casual - "you want anything from the store? No? Okay. See you in a bit." (Or of course, maybe no words at all).
I also watched the girl's movements to see if there was any reaction to the man, and I couldn't see anything pronounced. But that doesn't mean there there wasn't. There could have been some brief exchange of verbal words.
Now back again to this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
From the 17th second to the 19th second:The first boy briefly turns his head to the left looking back, possibly to the second boy seen at the 25 second mark. Perhaps the second boy called out to him.
At the 22nd second mark: the woman does seem to extend her right arm backwards - perhaps an instinctual reaction to holding the girl's hand while crossing the street.
At the 22nd and 23rd second marks: The boy reaches out with his arm and appears to touch the man. The man then appears to adjust the boy's hat, and/or perhaps glasses..

At the 25 second mark: a fifth figure enters the frame. You see this only for a fraction of a second. It just strengthened my impression that this key street, running along the side of the school, had quite a few people on it that day, making it very risky for a completely unknown abductor.

After watching this, I considered the possibility: Do they all know each other? Did the man and woman go towards the school, with the man stopping halfway to wait and the woman going on to get the kids. I mean, is this them, including the boy, being seen on tape? Doing some basic height comparisons from still photos of the boy and girl together, I compared the figures on the video, and they were very similar in height..

If you bear in mind that the police have never commented on the witnesses who assisted with the sketch (human witnesses and/or other surveillance tapes) nor on the other individuals on the tape (http://www.dose.ca/news/story.html?id=1520226), and if you consider the possibility of TM fabricating the 4:15 p.m. arrival time, this might make sense:
1. Something did happen. A missing persons report is filed at 6:06 p.m. that girl never returned from school. At this time they are unaware of the tape.
2. Tape is released. Should their faces be identified from the video, they would then be caught in a lie.
3. TM sets the time the boy arrived home as 4:15p.m., therefore dismantling any connection to the video. If he arrived home at 4:15 p.m., then it couldn't have been him or them in the video.
4. As a result of the release of the video, they have to go along with the abduction theory, which would then explain several things:TM's negative reaction when first asked about the sketch (April 22nd interview with CTV news); her response to the question of how she felt when looked into the eyes of the sketch (I believe the same video) - so much hestitating that sounds like is she making up the answer on the spot; that the money is going to a trust fund for the children, not for investigative efforts (this suggests that they already know the answer to what happened; and so on.

This is just an theory of course, ...nothing more.
My apologies for the long post.




ahhhhhh it could just be a stripe on the back of the jacket.. because i dont see it across the chest.

[Mazama]

With the first mention of your GF I thought you might be one of my nephews, until I read the part about the neighbour, as my father was beaten to death in a home invasion. I feel your pain. (((Gentle hugs)))

Ps. Where is Kanata Ont?

Thank you for the hugs. It's nice knowing strangers have compassion and are willing to share it.

Kanata is just outside Ottawa to the SW.

As for proximity to Woodstock I am nearly 6 hours away from Woodstock, hence my frustration at not being able to participate in ground search efforts etc.

On the lighter side...if I were your nephew I'd have to be male in gender...lol. :)

[Turbododger]

Did we ever determine the height of JG?

I know the behaviour analysis of TM's side of the family has been explored alot on here, maybe we are in error not examining the paternal side of things? I don't think we have ever really looked at it too much, it would seem to be a good avenue to go down with the stall in the investigation.

What about RS' ex's? How many did he have?

[justbetweenus]

Justbetweenus, sorry about father also. How sad that the elderly are treated this way. An elderly woman in my town (86 years old) was mugged and raped by the seniors recreation center. They think the suspect was around 40 years old. What a sicko doing this to a helpless old lady.

OMG that is just sickening! That poor poor lady. I think I might have vaguely heard something about this.

Thanks Flowercb. There are many survivors of victims here on ws. My heart goes out to them all.

[justbetweenus]

ahhhhhh it could just be a stripe on the back of the jacket.. because i dont see it across the chest.

I tend to believe it's more apt to be a stripe on the coat. In the police description they say (not verbatum) that she could be carrying a bag, so they aren't sure either.

[justbetweenus]

I am so sorry about your losses, good for you for being here on WS advocating for victims! I hope that the people(s) responsible for those crimes are in jail, how hard it would be not recieving due justice. If my son was ever hurt I would have a hard time not seeking revenge myself. The only thing that would stop me would be knowing my life would be over and I would be in prison.

Anyway, on the topic of Tori. I am pretty confident that a theory was presented in this forum that does not have to do with the Mother harming her daughter, atleast no directly. I feel that the theory may be what is happening right now and feel she may be alive. What do you think of that theory, if you read the links that were posted?

Hi Danaya. I'm not sure I read the other theory. Could you lead me to that post please. Glad to see you're coming around in your thinking.;)

[justbetweenus]

Okay - here is what I came up with last night. Please bear an open mind when reading it. The video tape bothered me so much, I had to go through it again, but this time, frame by frame.

First, there are these ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_G7oH2iQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrMrXdy9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go19c89eIGc
Going through these frame by frame, I was confident there was no black stripe of sorts at the back of the jacket, nor any backpack, handbag, or whatever being carried on her lefthand side.

Next, this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
This one is 1:02 minutes in length.
From the 10 second mark to the 17 second mark: Does the boy look like he's been running and starting to slow down? Is he playing catch up to the woman and girl? If compared to other copies of the tape, that the boy may be running into the frame is hard to see because the others are slowed down. The speed in this version was the most natural looking which I could find.
From the 15th second to the 18th second: The woman turns her head toward the man. Going frame by frame, it looked like her head was swivelling to the right, not to the right and down, as in to the girl, but to the man. The first time I watched the surveillance tape, I assumed she was checking to her right for traffic before crossing. However, going frame by frame, the body movement didn't add up. I actual went outside yesterday and watched other people crossing the road from approximately the same angle, then I tried it myself several times - her head turns, but she doesn't twist her upper body along with her shoulders.
Looking at the same thing in this super-cropped version,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGrM...eature=channel, from the 24th second to the 41st second, it strongly appears that she is focussed on the man. I went back and checked out the man frame by frame is this section, and there doesn't appear to be any kind of reaction. However, that doesn't mean to say that there was none - they may have been fighting, with the woman saying something to him and him ignoring him. Or possibly, something just casual - "you want anything from the store? No? Okay. See you in a bit." (Or of course, maybe no words at all).
I also watched the girl's movements to see if there was any reaction to the man, and I couldn't see anything pronounced. But that doesn't mean there there wasn't. There could have been some brief exchange of verbal words.
Now back again to this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE
From the 17th second to the 19th second:The first boy briefly turns his head to the left looking back, possibly to the second boy seen at the 25 second mark. Perhaps the second boy called out to him.
At the 22nd second mark: the woman does seem to extend her right arm backwards - perhaps an instinctual reaction to holding the girl's hand while crossing the street.
At the 22nd and 23rd second marks: The boy reaches out with his arm and appears to touch the man. The man then appears to adjust the boy's hat, and/or perhaps glasses..

At the 25 second mark: a fifth figure enters the frame. You see this only for a fraction of a second. It just strengthened my impression that this key street, running along the side of the school, had quite a few people on it that day, making it very risky for a completely unknown abductor.

After watching this, I considered the possibility: Do they all know each other? Did the man and woman go towards the school, with the man stopping halfway to wait and the woman going on to get the kids. I mean, is this them, including the boy, being seen on tape? Doing some basic height comparisons from still photos of the boy and girl together, I compared the figures on the video, and they were very similar in height..

If you bear in mind that the police have never commented on the witnesses who assisted with the sketch (human witnesses and/or other surveillance tapes) nor on the other individuals on the tape (http://www.dose.ca/news/story.html?id=1520226), and if you consider the possibility of TM fabricating the 4:15 p.m. arrival time, this might make sense:
1. Something did happen. A missing persons report is filed at 6:06 p.m. that girl never returned from school. At this time they are unaware of the tape.
2. Tape is released. Should their faces be identified from the video, they would then be caught in a lie.
3. TM sets the time the boy arrived home as 4:15p.m., therefore dismantling any connection to the video. If he arrived home at 4:15 p.m., then it couldn't have been him or them in the video.
4. As a result of the release of the video, they have to go along with the abduction theory, which would then explain several things:TM's negative reaction when first asked about the sketch (April 22nd interview with CTV news); her response to the question of how she felt when looked into the eyes of the sketch (I believe the same video) - so much hestitating that sounds like is she making up the answer on the spot; that the money is going to a trust fund for the children, not for investigative efforts (this suggests that they already know the answer to what happened; and so on.

This is just an theory of course, ...nothing more.
My apologies for the long post.

You did a wonderful job putting this all together nova. Could you repost the link to your super cropped video? It's going directly to youtube and not the specific video. Thanks.

ETA: I'm having troubles finding it but I'm sure I seen a video clip where the police confirmed the other adult and child in the video have been interviewed.

[Kat]

Is there a link for the conference Tara gave in her white coat? I am sorry, I can't find it and I missed it because I was busy on the Brittanee thread. TIA

[justbetweenus]

Thank you for the hugs. It's nice knowing strangers have compassion and are willing to share it.

Kanata is just outside Ottawa to the SW.

As for proximity to Woodstock I am nearly 6 hours away from Woodstock, hence my frustration at not being able to participate in ground search efforts etc.

On the lighter side...if I were your nephew I'd have to be male in gender...lol. :)

LOL...I show my blonde roots sometimes.

[justbetweenus]

Is there a link for the conference Tara gave in her white coat? I am sorry, I can't find it and I missed it because I was busy on the Brittanee thread. TIA

Here is one of her with the white coat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uslvznivWg

[Flowercb]

I tend to believe it's more apt to be a stripe on the coat. In the police description they say (not verbatum) that she could be carrying a bag, so they aren't sure either.

I wear my black purse around my shoulder and body like this. Maybe because her coat is open, we don't see the purse. Anyway, before anyone says anything, I don't own and have never owned a white coat. lol

[crazyladi]

I wear my black purse around my shoulder and body like this. Maybe because her coat is open, we don't see the purse. Anyway, before anyone says anything, I don't own and have never owned a white coat. lol

I agree with what your saying because I have done that as well, but you would be able to see it over the shoulder it looks like the stripe goes under the armpit

[crazyladi]

maybe not!!!

[justbetweenus]

I wear my black purse around my shoulder and body like this. Maybe because her coat is open, we don't see the purse. Anyway, before anyone says anything, I don't own and have never owned a white coat. lol

I understand what you're saying, but if it was a strap from a purse I would think we would see it on the front side of her as well, not only the back.

just: whos white coat is safely packed away for the winter.;)

[Kat]

Here is one of her with the white coat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uslvznivWg

Thank you justbetweenus, I remembered once I had seen it that I had seen it! :)

Her demeanor and comments along the lines of I'm not going to come out here and cry my eyes out here in front of you guys or ....what ever she said....gives me chills and a slightly nauseous feeling from flashbacks of KC...Sorry but it does.

[siestalola]

About Tara not addressing Tori directly when the reporter pressed her to: If I asked any of you to addresss someone right now that you are missing from your life for whatever reason, and you know that there is a chance that it might reach them, wouldn't you take me up on the opportunity?

Even if I said, hey, I'm going to Italy today and I might bump into your cousin, is there something I can tell them for you? Is there something you'd like to say, because this chance may not pass this way again?

If I were Tara, as soon as someone put a mic to my face the first thing out of my mouth would be: Tori, we're looking for you, stay strong, I love you very much and want you here where you belong. To the person who has Tori or anyone with any information no matter how small, please have mercy on us and share the information with crimestoppers where you can remain annonymous.

Tara's demeanor does not fit with the circumstances.


I couldn't agree with you more! You are absolutely bang on, IMO

[LuckyPenny]

So you believe the OPP is offering a $50,000.00 reward for information leading to the arrest of Tori's abductor when they already know who it is?

ETA: Welcome to ws LuckyPenny


Sounds crazy I know. I believe police know who is in the video. I think it's what happened after the video is what they are trying to piece together. They are desparate for the publics help to finish the puzzle and to locate Tori.

[CarrieBean]

Probably O/T but, geezus :(

OPP charge three people with child pornography offences

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1547331

Former Woodstock minister charged with two counts of sexual assault

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1547650

[doubletrouble]

I too know what it is like to lose a loved one. My grandfather was brutally murdered. It was only after a neighbor called police to say he had seen strangers going in and out of my grandfathers house did we find out that he had been killed. I cry every time I think about it. I've shed many tears over Victoria as well...my mind wanders and I can't help but wonder what she is going through or went through. I get very frustrated because I want to do more to help but am limited in my abilities because of my own family and distance from where she went missing etc.

I feel your pain.

Thankyou. that was a very touching post, and im truly so sorry and angry to hear what had happened to your grandfather. I suppose there is a majority of us that come onto websleuths looking for answers, and wanting to help, as victims. it is all part of the grieving and healing process.
i pray to God that they found those responsible for your grandfathers senseless murder and are paying the ultimate punishment. i am here in sarasota florida, quite a distance from woodstock as well...i wouldnt even have heard of tori missing would it not have been for websleuths...i praise this site and everything that it represents and am a proud member. its nice to be your weblsleuth friend.
:blowkiss: susan

[roseofsharon]

She is just trying to mess with everyone's head!!! What person, with any intelligence and sensitivity at all, puts on a coat like this one.

Even if she is innocent, wouldn't a person think twice if they grabbed this particular coat out of their closet:confused: This is passive-aggressive behaviour at its finest with a splash of big bro presence for intimidation.

[doubletrouble]

With the first mention of your GF I thought you might be one of my nephews, until I read the part about the neighbour, as my father was beaten to death in a home invasion. I feel your pain. (((Gentle hugs)))

Ps. Where is Kanata Ont?

omg just....i am soo sorry to hear about your father....we all are gathered here , have been led here for either something that has happened in our lives, and/or we want to make a differance and care...i cannot understand why these senseless brutal murders happen... we are talking about another human life...i honestly think that if the electric chair was instituted in each and every state...perhaps that may be enough of a deterant, at least for half of them...this give an i.v and sedate,for death penalty, i feel is no punishment, as we experience the same thing going in for a colonoscopy or a procedure...just unaware that dont wake up...we need tougher laws...scary punishments...or im afraid that the value and taking of a human life to another is not a huge risk....i dont know..thinking too much...but im truly so sorry to hear about your father and pray that the murderers were caught and punished to the max degree..:blowkiss:

[Mazama]

Thankyou. that was a very touching post, and im truly so sorry and angry to hear what had happened to your grandfather. I suppose there is a majority of us that come onto websleuths looking for answers, and wanting to help, as victims. it is all part of the grieving and healing process.
i pray to God that they found those responsible for your grandfathers senseless murder and are paying the ultimate punishment. i am here in sarasota florida, quite a distance from woodstock as well...i wouldnt even have heard of tori missing would it not have been for websleuths...i praise this site and everything that it represents and am a proud member. its nice to be your weblsleuth friend.
:blowkiss: susan

It's nice to be your Websleuth friend as well, thank you. :)

Thankfully in our case, those responsible were tried and convicted of my grandfather's murder and are still serving their sentences. This happened in the state of Kentucky.

Victoria's story tugged at my heart as soon as I heard it on the news, not sure why but I find myself drawn to this beautiful little girl.

I posted previously about having recurring dreams about her in a white house with a high, steep roof line. I've had this same dream 5 or 6 times now. Something I recalled about this dream is I am facing the house, it has a small concrete porch with a metal railing. To the right as I face it is what appears to be a rather large open field that goes back for quite a ways. Like acreage or farmland. To the left I can see one tree, medium to medium large in size. The rest of the left side of the house is in shadows. But just like all the other dreams I have, Victoria appears at a window briefly, screaming for help and try as I might I cannot break through the door or window to reach her.

I pray that Victoria is found soon...this needs to end for all involved.

[LuckyPenny]

She is just trying to mess with everyone's head!!! What person, with any intelligence and sensitivity at all, puts on a coat like this one.

Even if she is innocent, wouldn't a person think twice if they grabbed this particular coat out of their closet:confused: This is passive-aggressive behaviour at its finest with a splash of big bro presence for intimidation.

If she has nothing to hide, why should she be worried about what coat she is wearing, even if it happens to be white. Then the media and general public would be saying .. ohhhh she wont wear that white coat because she knows it's her that did it etc etc. Whether she is guilty or not, unfortunately everything she does is under scruitiny. Honestly if she wants to wear her hair in a pony tail, a white coat, black pants - let her. In the end that will not determine her guilt or innocence (her constant talking will do that!!) . JMO


PS - I believe that's her Uncle in the background - John McDonald (big biker looking dude)

:)

[Danaya]

ChaChaCha believed she pretty much figured out what happened and a lot of people agreed who read what she wrote, she then got a bit freaked out since she is an Ontario native and deleted it but if you go back to the #4 thread and click on the 15th page or so, you will see in a post by someone who quoted ChaChaCha, who is not a regular and left it. Now, ChaChaCha requested that whoever quoted her delete it and she deleted the original but you should be able to find it (I was able to). I'm not sure if ChaChaCha would object to me writing this but I think it is such a good theory, I honestly don't know why people would believe otherwise after reading it.

[Turbododger]

Do any of the local's know or have heard rumours of why TM left the co-op?

[another nosey mom]

Do any of the local's know or have heard rumours of why TM left the co-op?

that is a very good question that I have also wondered about, and no one seems to hear anything...very strange that you wouldn't hear from her old neighbours ... I hope Tori knew her new address...

[LuckyPenny]

Do any of the local's know or have heard rumours of why TM left the co-op?

I've heard only exactly that "rumours", that they were evicted ... but as to the rumour why I wouldn't want to post without proof ..

[justbetweenus]

Do any of the local's know or have heard rumours of why TM left the co-op?

She did mention on her FB that she hated living there, and kept getting reported to CAS and Ont works.

[another nosey mom]

She did mention on her FB that she hated living there, and kept getting reported to CAS and Ont works.

so that would mean that she let her kids run wild or left them alone, etc... could also have been because she had her BF living there and was supposed to be 'single'??

[CarrieBean]

She did mention on her FB that she hated living there, and kept getting reported to CAS and Ont works.
Any mention of why CAS and Ont Works were being called? I wonder if anything came of CAS being called. I assume the Ont works calls were over her bf living with her.

[siestalola]

ChaChaCha,

I sent you a pm

SiestaLola

[ChaChaCha]

ChaChaCha,

I sent you a pm

SiestaLola

SiestaLola - thank you for your message! Mission accomplished except for the quote, but I think I can live (being the key word) with that!

How is everyone this evening???

[Danaya]

Fine, ChaChaCha. I think you were right about what you posted yesterday as you can see from my previous messages. Hoping Tori is safe some where.

[justbetweenus]

ChaChaCha believed she pretty much figured out what happened and a lot of people agreed who read what she wrote, she then got a bit freaked out since she is an Ontario native and deleted it but if you go back to the #4 thread and click on the 15th page or so, you will see in a post by someone who quoted ChaChaCha, who is not a regular and left it. Now, ChaChaCha requested that whoever quoted her delete it and she deleted the original but you should be able to find it (I was able to). I'm not sure if ChaChaCha would object to me writing this but I think it is such a good theory, I honestly don't know why people would believe otherwise after reading it.

Ok I know what you mean now. Thanks Danaya.

[justbetweenus]

so that would mean that she let her kids run wild or left them alone, etc... could also have been because she had her BF living there and was supposed to be 'single'??

Any mention of why CAS and Ont Works were being called? I wonder if anything came of CAS being called. I assume the Ont works calls were over her bf living with her.

No mention of why the calls were made, only comments from a couple others that it was a hole and glad she finally found another place to live. I was thinking the Ont work complaints had something to do with extra, unreported income. I think social service recipients are still allowed to have live in common law partners. Pissed me off when they made that legal.

[elepher50]

It's nice to be your Websleuth friend as well, thank you. :)

Thankfully in our case, those responsible were tried and convicted of my grandfather's murder and are still serving their sentences. This happened in the state of Kentucky.

Victoria's story tugged at my heart as soon as I heard it on the news, not sure why but I find myself drawn to this beautiful little girl.

I posted previously about having recurring dreams about her in a white house with a high, steep roof line. I've had this same dream 5 or 6 times now. Something I recalled about this dream is I am facing the house, it has a small concrete porch with a metal railing. To the right as I face it is what appears to be a rather large open field that goes back for quite a ways. Like acreage or farmland. To the left I can see one tree, medium to medium large in size. The rest of the left side of the house is in shadows. But just like all the other dreams I have, Victoria appears at a window briefly, screaming for help and try as I might I cannot break through the door or window to reach her.

I pray that Victoria is found soon...this needs to end for all involved.

Hi Mazama, Agreed this needs to end for all involved - and Victoria needs to be found. I just want to throw this out here for you to take a look at ...


I too pray that Victoria is found soon.

[siestalola]

Did anyone see the presser today with Tara, Rodney and the "Big Brother" Did you catch what Rodney said

......."Even if Tara is involved, the fact is Tori is still out there so let's keep focus on that fact for now"....(or something very close to that)

Don't you think that proves his innocence, he doesn't have to worry or keep his focus on proving he's innocent. He knows he is! He's just not so sure about Tara.

Can you imagine what must have been said once they all went back into the house after a comment like that. It will be interesting to see if he is at the presser tomorrow. Tara may not let him! She had to be pi$$$d off! ! !

I truly feel for him and his family.

[ChaChaCha]

just between us...

I think social service recipients are still allowed to have live in common law partners. Pissed me off when they made that legal.

I didn't think that was allowed ? I thought that they based eligibility for income assistance on the "family" income? I could be wrong, of course - but it makes sense that if you are living with someone common law that social services would expect them to pay at least half the rent and expenses... In any case, I think that in a co-op the rent is based on a pro-rata share of the co-op expenses (i.e. a 2 bedroom is always $800, a 3 bedroom $900 etc...) and then everyone is expected to contribute to the running and maintenance of the co-op for so many hours every month.

As far as income goes, there would be a pretty good monthly cheque (based on last year's income and number of children) that rolls in, and social services would top that up to a half-decent income. Recipients are allowed to earn so much - and need to report all income. Anything over the threshold is deducted dollar for dollar from the social assistance, which is now called "Ontario Works". I would think too that you would need to have a pretty good excuse to collect - they don't hand it out all that easily over an extended period of time any more. There are required meetings etc to see whether you have been looking for work, whatever...

Just what I know...

[ChaChaCha]

Shhhhh... it is very very quiet. If you are all waiting for me to open my big mouth again tonite you will be sadly disappointed...I am on the lay low....

[justbetweenus]

just between us...

I think social service recipients are still allowed to have live in common law partners. Pissed me off when they made that legal.

I didn't think that was allowed ? I thought that they based eligibility for income assistance on the "family" income? I could be wrong, of course - but it makes sense that if you are living with someone common law that social services would expect them to pay at least half the rent and expenses... In any case, I think that in a co-op the rent is based on a pro-rata share of the co-op expenses (i.e. a 2 bedroom is always $800, a 3 bedroom $900 etc...) and then everyone is expected to contribute to the running and maintenance of the co-op for so many hours every month.

As far as income goes, there would be a pretty good monthly cheque (based on last year's income and number of children) that rolls in, and social services would top that up to a half-decent income. Recipients are allowed to earn so much - and need to report all income. Anything over the threshold is deducted dollar for dollar from the social assistance, which is now called "Ontario Works". I would think too that you would need to have a pretty good excuse to collect - they don't hand it out all that easily over an extended period of time any more. There are required meetings etc to see whether you have been looking for work, whatever...

Just what I know...

Hi ChaChaCha, you probablly are right, and know a lot more then I do. I just recall several years ago that single mothers receiving social services, were allowed to have their bf move in without having to lose any benefits. If I recall correctly they were allowed to live together for so many mths (I'm thinking maybe 6) then they would take his income into consideration.

I knew a couple women that had BFs move in but claimed they were just a good friend only, helping to pay the rent but paid for their own groceries etc. that way they were only losing the amount of rent he contributed. The men were well able to support these women and their children without her collecting benefits. This was a long time ago though, and I really don't know how they work anymore.

I was assuming that Tara lived there as a single mom, and James moved in later. Maybe I shouldn't have made that last post lol.;)

[Patience]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mistaken+arrest+girl+abduction/1531904/story.html

[Patience]

http://www.ofah.org/News/index.cfm?ID=3&A=GetDoc&DID=466

[elepher50]

Shhhhh... it is very very quiet. If you are all waiting for me to open my big mouth again tonite you will be sadly disappointed...I am on the lay low....

It is very quiet in here tonight - must be the calm before the storm? I was hoping we were going to go on to Part 2 but see that you are laying low ...low....sigh. What is going on locally today other than the Tara show?

[siestalola]

Shhhhh... it is very very quiet. If you are all waiting for me to open my big mouth again tonite you will be sadly disappointed...I am on the lay low....


You crack me up!

Thank goodness it's quiet...maybe I will get to bed early, like I was gonna do last night til you dropped that bombshell

[Patience]

I would like to see Nancy Grace do a segment on Tori Stafford and see if she could get Tara on. What do you think Nancy would think of the limo deal?

[CentralAlberta]

Happy Thursday everyone!

This is from the site that has the family tree info. Was this the place, where, at one time it stated an "also known as" for JG. If not, anybody recall where that was?

JAMES GORIS


McDonald's boyfriend, 31, he's dated Tori's mother on and off for three years. He has a criminal record that includes drug possession and theft under $5,000.

Many of us seem to be leaning toward the biker witness theory as a plausible possibilty in this case. What I can't fit together in my mind is how did they get Tori to begin with? Obviously they didn't come roaring into Woodstock on their Harleys, so how did they get her? Is the person in the video one of 'them'? (Who many of us think could be TM or her friend's sister?? I think)

[justbetweenus]

I would like to see Nancy Grace do a segment on Tori Stafford and see if she could get Tara on. What do you think Nancy would think of the limo deal?

Has she ever covered a Canadian case, other then the small mentions? Anyone know?

[Flowercb]

I don't know if I'm allowed to post this but there is a psychic with the initials SS who dropped quite a bomb about a vision of Tori speaking to him. Do a search of Tori's first and last name and comma psychic. I don't want to post the link in case the moderator does not like it.

[Flowercb]

It's funny because last week I had a dream where I heard someone say the Dad knows where she is. Maybe he knows of the location because he went there with Tori before, not that he is involved.

[greatwhitenorth]

Hi ChaChaCha, you probablly are right, and know a lot more then I do. I just recall several years ago that single mothers receiving social services, were allowed to have their bf move in without having to lose any benefits. If I recall correctly they were allowed to live together for so many mths (I'm thinking maybe 6) then they would take his income into consideration.

I knew a couple women that had BFs move in but claimed they were just a good friend only, helping to pay the rent but paid for their own groceries etc. that way they were only losing the amount of rent he contributed. The men were well able to support these women and their children without her collecting benefits. This was a long time ago though, and I really don't know how they work anymore.

I was assuming that Tara lived there as a single mom, and James moved in later. Maybe I shouldn't have made that last post lol.;)

You are concidered common law after 6mnths.

[crazyladi]

just between us...

I think social service recipients are still allowed to have live in common law partners. Pissed me off when they made that legal.

I didn't think that was allowed ? I thought that they based eligibility for income assistance on the "family" income? I could be wrong, of course - but it makes sense that if you are living with someone common law that social services would expect them to pay at least half the rent and expenses... In any case, I think that in a co-op the rent is based on a pro-rata share of the co-op expenses (i.e. a 2 bedroom is always $800, a 3 bedroom $900 etc...) and then everyone is expected to contribute to the running and maintenance of the co-op for so many hours every month.

As far as income goes, there would be a pretty good monthly cheque (based on last year's income and number of children) that rolls in, and social services would top that up to a half-decent income. Recipients are allowed to earn so much - and need to report all income. Anything over the threshold is deducted dollar for dollar from the social assistance, which is now called "Ontario Works". I would think too that you would need to have a pretty good excuse to collect - they don't hand it out all that easily over an extended period of time any more. There are required meetings etc to see whether you have been looking for work, whatever...

Just what I know...


When i first left my ex and got into government housing 5 yrs ago i was paying $420 for a 2 bedroom apartment on maternity leave. Once I went back to work making $30,000 it went up to $700 than once I got a raise making $35000 i had to pay market value $920. I was always told that if my circumstances changed I needed to notify them asap. I would not have been allowed to stay there with anyone else there.

[kharma]

Does anyone think it is at all possible that the little girl shown on the High School camera is not Tori? If the woman cannot be identified, why then has the child been identified? I was just wondering....

[justbetweenus]

Does anyone think it is at all possible that the little girl shown on the High School camera is not Tori? If the woman cannot be identified, why then has the child been identified? I was just wondering....

Both parents identified the girl as being Tori. Being the woman in the video hasn't come forward to say it was her and her child, and Tori hasn't been seen since confirms it is her. JMO.

[ChaChaCha]

I would like to see Nancy Grace do a segment on Tori Stafford and see if she could get Tara on. What do you think Nancy would think of the limo deal?

Oh I would love just absolutely love for NG to take a crack at that! I think that woman has the balls of a brass monkey - it would be a brawl for sure! Can you see NG do a Tara imitation?

NG: "Me me me me me" Tara! What about your DAUGHTER? Why are you riding around in limos and on bikes and calling the Maury show when you should be out looking for YOUR DAUGHTER"

T: Stop being mean to me. I am a very popular person. I have lots of friends on Facebook and only three nasty messages. I think I am more attractive now than ever. It might be my new sunglasses that I even wear at night in limos. It must be true because people always stop and stare at me, especially when I wear white.

NG: What would you say to TORI if you could talk to her right now?

T: I wrote her a letter. She can read it if she wants when she gets home.

NG: People say that you are a crackhead and a drug dealer. Is that true? Have you ever done drugs?

T: Everyone does drugs. Woodstock is a craphole. I smoked pot in high school but everybody in my circle was doing it. I don't care about what my boyfriend did years ago or if he has to go to court again on drug charges. It's all a lie.

NG: Tara, who do you think took Tori and why?

T: I haven't a clue. Not a single clue. I think it was someone who was jealous of me and being MILDLY vindictive and it got out of control and I, um I mean they didn't know what to do. And I guess I didn't seem really upset because I won't bawl in front of people so they just figured oh well, guess we just won't do anything and see what happens.

NG: Tara, I understand that you have working very hard at fundraising. What kind of fundraising have you been involved in?

T: Well, I hired an accountant, and then I um got him to make two accounts for me, and then I organized a bike rally, and um, there have been some balloon things and stuff and a couple of bars that I appeared at. But it's not really about the money because I don't need money. The money isn't for me it's for my kids and their educations and stuff that they might need. And people shouldn't watch what I am doing. They should mind their own business, because now I had to shut down the personal account. If they have that much time to sit around on FB and talk about me they should get out there and hand out some flyers.

NG: So all of the funds that are being raised are to be held for your children?

T: Yah, for like counselling and stuff, and for the dumb f**k that took my baby...

NG: Tara, how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

T: Well, actually I photograph different than I really am. If you see me in like videos it would be hard to recognize me. I look different when my hair is up, or when it is down. So really, I have no clue. Sorry, not a clue.

NG: So this is your daughter's father. Sir, what do you think of all the accusations that have been made against your family?

(Mumbling... If Tara's involved it will all come out in the end. In the meantime if we could just talk about TORI????)

FADES TO COMMERCIAL....

[LuckyPenny]

Does anyone think it is at all possible that the little girl shown on the High School camera is not Tori? If the woman cannot be identified, why then has the child been identified? I was just wondering....

The video alone is not how they identified them. Classmates saw that it was Tori.

[Mazama]

Hi Mazama, Agreed this needs to end for all involved - and Victoria needs to be found. I just want to throw this out here for you to take a look at ...


I too pray that Victoria is found soon.

Thank you for the picture...it is similar to what I see in my dreams but not quite the same. Hard to explain but the roof is a bit higher and steeper. The house in my dream also appears to be a tad bit narrower than this one. Small concrete front porch with an iron or metal railing. Facing the house front in my dream the tree is on the left and the open land area is on the right.

I might look for a picture to show more closely what I see. Thanks so much.

[Flowercb]

ChaChaCha, That is being on the lay low. lol. You should write for the NG show or the tonight show. Leno would have a hoot.

[Danaya]

Nancy Grace does have balls of a brass monkey, LOL.

[justbetweenus]

Hi Mazama, Agreed this needs to end for all involved - and Victoria needs to be found. I just want to throw this out here for you to take a look at ...


I too pray that Victoria is found soon.

Is that the farm where the biker deaths were?

[justbetweenus]

Thank you for the picture...it is similar to what I see in my dreams but not quite the same. Hard to explain but the roof is a bit higher and steeper. The house in my dream also appears to be a tad bit narrower than this one. Small concrete front porch with an iron or metal railing. Facing the house front in my dream the tree is on the left and the open land area is on the right.

I might look for a picture to show more closely what I see. Thanks so much.

Mazama did you by chance discuss your dream on the FB psychic group? It kinda sounds familiar.

[crazyladi]

Oh I would love just absolutely love for NG to take a crack at that! I think that woman has the balls of a brass monkey - it would be a brawl for sure! Can you see NG do a Tara imitation?

NG: "Me me me me me" Tara! What about your DAUGHTER? Why are you riding around in limos and on bikes and calling the Maury show when you should be out looking for YOUR DAUGHTER"

T: Stop being mean to me. I am a very popular person. I have lots of friends on Facebook and only three nasty messages. I think I am more attractive now than ever. It might be my new sunglasses that I even wear at night in limos. It must be true because people always stop and stare at me, especially when I wear white.

NG: What would you say to TORI if you could talk to her right now?

T: I wrote her a letter. She can read it if she wants when she gets home.

NG: People say that you are a crackhead and a drug dealer. Is that true? Have you ever done drugs?

T: Everyone does drugs. Woodstock is a craphole. I smoked pot in high school but everybody in my circle was doing it. I don't care about what my boyfriend did years ago or if he has to go to court again on drug charges. It's all a lie.

NG: Tara, who do you think took Tori and why?

T: I haven't a clue. Not a single clue. I think it was someone who was jealous of me and being MILDLY vindictive and it got out of control and I, um I mean they didn't know what to do. And I guess I didn't seem really upset because I won't bawl in front of people so they just figured oh well, guess we just won't do anything and see what happens.

NG: Tara, I understand that you have working very hard at fundraising. What kind of fundraising have you been involved in?

T: Well, I hired an accountant, and then I um got him to make two accounts for me, and then I organized a bike rally, and um, there have been some balloon things and stuff and a couple of bars that I appeared at. But it's not really about the money because I don't need money. The money isn't for me it's for my kids and their educations and stuff that they might need. And people shouldn't watch what I am doing. They should mind their own business, because now I had to shut down the personal account. If they have that much time to sit around on FB and talk about me they should get out there and hand out some flyers.

NG: So all of the funds that are being raised are to be held for your children?

T: Yah, for like counselling and stuff, and for the dumb f**k that took my baby...

NG: Tara, how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

T: Well, actually I photograph different than I really am. If you see me in like videos it would be hard to recognize me. I look different when my hair is up, or when it is down. So really, I have no clue. Sorry, not a clue.

NG: So this is your daughter's father. Sir, what do you think of all the accusations that have been made against your family?

(Mumbling... If Tara's involved it will all come out in the end. In the meantime if we could just talk about TORI????)

FADES TO COMMERCIAL....


hahahhahahah hahahahahh hahahahhhah that was friggen hilarious and a perfect impression hahahhahah

[Turbododger]

Some useful information from FB (hard to believe, I know), posted by a local:

"a few days ago that I drove past the high school were Tori went missing....I looked on the wall of the school to see where the camera was located
camera was located....and to my surprise I couldn't believe it. There wasn't just one, but a total of 3 cameras on the wall.

One looked like it was pointed toward Oliver Stephens School, then there were two together one which was probably pointed towards Fyfe Ave which to me was probably the video which captured Tori with that woman, and a third one right beside it facing the front of the high school on College Ave., so with three cameras I am sure they have lots of pictures of the abduction"

[Peekaboo10]

Here is one of her with the white coat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uslvznivWg
That "white coat" Tara is wearing looks to be a sweater, not a coat.

[Turbododger]

We need to look at this case from a different angle.

[PenelopePetunia]

Shhhhh... it is very very quiet. If you are all waiting for me to open my big mouth again tonite you will be sadly disappointed...I am on the lay low....


I've been on the lay low too... reading every bit of information.... thinking thinking...

:waitasec:

[justbetweenus]

That "white coat" Tara is wearing looks to be a sweater, not a coat.

I just went back to see if I could find another video with her wearing it, and this one shows her walking out the door. It has fur trim down the front as well as the bottom.

Yes you can see the knited rope like fabric.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgVxYGRNp8

[crazyladi]

We need to look at this case from a different angle.


For sure... I think that we are off somewhere. I think bikers are involved but not to take tori. I think mom knows all and so does, BF-is the key i think and the step brother Bad ass biker wannabe, friend and sister, cousin etc. Landfill still being searched, for what? What do you think they are looking for? I dont think its the jacket. maybe someone noticed someone throw something in there and its key evidence. Tori went willingly. I saw no struggle, no hand holding, so who could it be. I dont think its the mother. What would be the reason for taking Tori, revenge, for saftey? What other angles could there be?? I know we are sitting on it

[idontknow]

ChaChaCha believed she pretty much figured out what happened and a lot of people agreed who read what she wrote, she then got a bit freaked out since she is an Ontario native and deleted it but if you go back to the #4 thread and click on the 15th page or so, you will see in a post by someone who quoted ChaChaCha, who is not a regular and left it. Now, ChaChaCha requested that whoever quoted her delete it and she deleted the original but you should be able to find it (I was able to). I'm not sure if ChaChaCha would object to me writing this but I think it is such a good theory, I honestly don't know why people would believe otherwise after reading it.

Chachacha: I went back to delete the quote but after reading the FAQs etc.(there's no edit selection) I'm not sure how to get rid of it. I'd love to get rid of it for you. Give me some direction. I've been trying to catch up. Sorry.

[Turbododger]

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090430/excops_tori_090430/20090430/?hub=TorontoNewHome

Cecelia Zhang Abduction/Murder lead investigator speaks about Tori's case.

[Lexiintoronto]

Oh I would love just absolutely love for NG to take a crack at that! I think that woman has the balls of a brass monkey - it would be a brawl for sure! Can you see NG do a Tara imitation?

NG: "Me me me me me" Tara! What about your DAUGHTER? Why are you riding around in limos and on bikes and calling the Maury show when you should be out looking for YOUR DAUGHTER"

T: Stop being mean to me. I am a very popular person. I have lots of friends on Facebook and only three nasty messages. I think I am more attractive now than ever. It might be my new sunglasses that I even wear at night in limos. It must be true because people always stop and stare at me, especially when I wear white.

NG: What would you say to TORI if you could talk to her right now?

T: I wrote her a letter. She can read it if she wants when she gets home.

NG: People say that you are a crackhead and a drug dealer. Is that true? Have you ever done drugs?

T: Everyone does drugs. Woodstock is a craphole. I smoked pot in high school but everybody in my circle was doing it. I don't care about what my boyfriend did years ago or if he has to go to court again on drug charges. It's all a lie.

NG: Tara, who do you think took Tori and why?

T: I haven't a clue. Not a single clue. I think it was someone who was jealous of me and being MILDLY vindictive and it got out of control and I, um I mean they didn't know what to do. And I guess I didn't seem really upset because I won't bawl in front of people so they just figured oh well, guess we just won't do anything and see what happens.

NG: Tara, I understand that you have working very hard at fundraising. What kind of fundraising have you been involved in?

T: Well, I hired an accountant, and then I um got him to make two accounts for me, and then I organized a bike rally, and um, there have been some balloon things and stuff and a couple of bars that I appeared at. But it's not really about the money because I don't need money. The money isn't for me it's for my kids and their educations and stuff that they might need. And people shouldn't watch what I am doing. They should mind their own business, because now I had to shut down the personal account. If they have that much time to sit around on FB and talk about me they should get out there and hand out some flyers.

NG: So all of the funds that are being raised are to be held for your children?

T: Yah, for like counselling and stuff, and for the dumb f**k that took my baby...

NG: Tara, how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

T: Well, actually I photograph different than I really am. If you see me in like videos it would be hard to recognize me. I look different when my hair is up, or when it is down. So really, I have no clue. Sorry, not a clue.

NG: So this is your daughter's father. Sir, what do you think of all the accusations that have been made against your family?

(Mumbling... If Tara's involved it will all come out in the end. In the meantime if we could just talk about TORI????)

FADES TO COMMERCIAL.... Okay, I am now nominating you to attend the next Tara newsconference. Maybe WS wouldn't mind making up an official-looking press pass?

You've got the NG language down pat, you just have to be sure to get the NG delivery just right as well. I can be your producer - you can even be fake-rude and ring me out every two minutes for no apparent reason.

[siestalola]

Oh I would love just absolutely love for NG to take a crack at that! I think that woman has the balls of a brass monkey - it would be a brawl for sure! Can you see NG do a Tara imitation?

NG: "Me me me me me" Tara! What about your DAUGHTER? Why are you riding around in limos and on bikes and calling the Maury show when you should be out looking for YOUR DAUGHTER"

T: Stop being mean to me. I am a very popular person. I have lots of friends on Facebook and only three nasty messages. I think I am more attractive now than ever. It might be my new sunglasses that I even wear at night in limos. It must be true because people always stop and stare at me, especially when I wear white.

NG: What would you say to TORI if you could talk to her right now?

T: I wrote her a letter. She can read it if she wants when she gets home.

NG: People say that you are a crackhead and a drug dealer. Is that true? Have you ever done drugs?

T: Everyone does drugs. Woodstock is a craphole. I smoked pot in high school but everybody in my circle was doing it. I don't care about what my boyfriend did years ago or if he has to go to court again on drug charges. It's all a lie.

NG: Tara, who do you think took Tori and why?

T: I haven't a clue. Not a single clue. I think it was someone who was jealous of me and being MILDLY vindictive and it got out of control and I, um I mean they didn't know what to do. And I guess I didn't seem really upset because I won't bawl in front of people so they just figured oh well, guess we just won't do anything and see what happens.

NG: Tara, I understand that you have working very hard at fundraising. What kind of fundraising have you been involved in?

T: Well, I hired an accountant, and then I um got him to make two accounts for me, and then I organized a bike rally, and um, there have been some balloon things and stuff and a couple of bars that I appeared at. But it's not really about the money because I don't need money. The money isn't for me it's for my kids and their educations and stuff that they might need. And people shouldn't watch what I am doing. They should mind their own business, because now I had to shut down the personal account. If they have that much time to sit around on FB and talk about me they should get out there and hand out some flyers.

NG: So all of the funds that are being raised are to be held for your children?

T: Yah, for like counselling and stuff, and for the dumb f**k that took my baby...

NG: Tara, how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

T: Well, actually I photograph different than I really am. If you see me in like videos it would be hard to recognize me. I look different when my hair is up, or when it is down. So really, I have no clue. Sorry, not a clue.

NG: So this is your daughter's father. Sir, what do you think of all the accusations that have been made against your family?

(Mumbling... If Tara's involved it will all come out in the end. In the meantime if we could just talk about TORI????)

FADES TO COMMERCIAL....

YOU ARE FREAKN HILARIOUS ! !

Somehow I knew you couldnt stay quiet tonight

LOL

[LuckyPenny]

That "white coat" Tara is wearing looks to be a sweater, not a coat.

I agree. The police actually have Tara's white coat as evidence.

[Turbododger]

Landfill still being searched, for what? What do you think they are looking for? I dont think its the jacket. maybe someone noticed someone throw something in there and its key evidence.

It just struck me, maybe the co-op superintendent threw out a bunch of stuff found in the apartment before LE got there. Then when LE went in to look around, they found DNA/blood evidence to suggest a crime. But the garbage had already been sent to the dump. So, maybe that's why they are still at the dump. I mean it is a very long time. In the Natalee Holloway case, they searched the dump for a long time for her body but I don't think it was this long. Gosh, I pray they are not searching for her body.

[Turbododger]

Chachacha: I went back to delete the quote but after reading the FAQs etc.(there's no edit selection) I'm not sure how to get rid of it. I'd love to get rid of it for you. Give me some direction. I've been trying to catch up. Sorry.

I Don't Know: Just go to your post, click edit, and then you will see a delete message option, click it, and then click on the delete message on the left also.

[Turbododger]

I'm thinkin' that POI is in that co-op.

[justbetweenus]

Chachacha: I went back to delete the quote but after reading the FAQs etc.(there's no edit selection) I'm not sure how to get rid of it. I'd love to get rid of it for you. Give me some direction. I've been trying to catch up. Sorry.

I would think all you would have to do is go to edit and then backspace out her quote then click on save.

[idontknow]

I Don't Know: Just go to your post, click edit, and then you will see a delete message option, click it, and then click on the delete message on the left also.

I have gone back but there is no EDIT to select.

There's an edit on this post which I'm using now...but not on the one from yesterday.

[Turbododger]

I have copied my post from Thread # 1, regarding the co-op evidence:


I found this article referrencing evidence taken from Tori's old house....hmmmm...any ideas what that might have been?

"McDonald, Goris, Tori and Daryn moved two weeks ago Friday just five days before Tori vanished from a co-op housing complex on one side of the children's school to a tiny house on the other side.

Kim Clarke, board president of the co-op, said she went into the now vacant unit a few days ago to get it ready for the next tenant when police arrived shortly after. They asked her to leave, a forensic team came, and they removed some evidence, she said."
http://www.cfrb.com/media/912002/Mar...+disappearance

It seems a large coincidence that they moved 5 days before she vanished? I wonder what the charts say about this?

[Lexiintoronto]

I have gone back but there is no EDIT to select.

There's an edit on this post which I'm using now...but not on the one from yesterday.
I know what' s wrong - you have less than 50 posts. Once you have 50, you can edit, add attachments, post new threads etc.

Fastest way to get to 50 is to go to the 'games room' and post away there.

[justbetweenus]

I have gone back but there is no EDIT to select.

There's an edit on this post which I'm using now...but not on the one from yesterday.

Ahhh that's likely because the thread is now closed. A mod will have to fix it. Personally I don't think it's anything to get hyper over.

[Turbododger]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

Hope nobody here minds the re-posts, but some things are still unexplained. I forgot about the nursing home. Maybe that is where the video is taken of her entering the building (even though she says otherwise).

An interview posted on CTV today. Excerpt below from Tara McDonald (Tori's mom)

"Go away, drop her off in a remote place and go so you don't get in any trouble. I think that's awful to say as a Mom myself because what if they do it again? But if that's what gets my daughter back and they figure out later on who it was from my daughter, then fine."

McDonald said she has watched the entire video, which ends with her daughter walking in front of a local nursing home. She said the video does not show where Victoria goes from there.

I can't quite figure out her statement....perhaps the police will release more video to assist, obviously there must be a reason why they haven't?

[nova1998]

Hi JustBetweenus,
This will definitely, definitely be my last post for a while.

If you were not able to get to those super-cropped videos, you can just go to Youtube and type in "Tori Stafford - cropped". 3 of them come up; I have no idea who made them.

After I heard the ex-husband mention today, right in front of the TM, that "Even if she was involved", or something to that effect, that the
focus needed to be on finding the girl, something came to mind.
I am still of the theory that something happened before the report was made, and still think that there was possibly some kind of accident. When he said that, I wondered if she may have had some kind of psychotic break, and that
she truly can't recall what happened or cannot actually discuss it with anyone. It wouldn't be unheard of to suddenly snap. If my take on the video makes any sense, and that she left with the girl heading eastbound on Walter, it may have been her wanting to get away and go somewere for a bit, then something just happened, and she never made it back with her. Considering the unfortunate 2 deaths she had in the family within the 9- month period, and other potentially stressful situations happening in her life all at the same time, it is a possibility, and a tragic one at that. I personally don't think the family family is trying to scam money. I think that they realize what may have transpired, and have been working to set up a trust fund to ensure that the boy will be properly taken care of in the future. That's just my take on it. And I hope that it is not correct. This is me, over and out.

[idontknow]

I know what' s wrong - you have less than 50 posts. Once you have 50, you can edit, add attachments, post new threads etc.

Fastest way to get to 50 is to go to the 'games room' and post away there.

Can you edit a post from days ago? I can edit all my posts tonight but not the one quoting Chachacha from yesterday.

Also in the FAQs there is this: If you have registered and are logged in, you may be able to edit and delete your posts (although the administrator may have turned off this option). Your ability to edit your posts may be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the forum.

Maybe someone wants to keep it there? I think it's out of my hands but I don't know. No pun intended.

[justbetweenus]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

Hope nobody here minds the re-posts, but some things are still unexplained. I forgot about the nursing home. Maybe that is where the video is taken of her entering the building (even though she says otherwise).

An interview posted on CTV today. Excerpt below from Tara McDonald (Tori's mom)

"Go away, drop her off in a remote place and go so you don't get in any trouble. I think that's awful to say as a Mom myself because what if they do it again? But if that's what gets my daughter back and they figure out later on who it was from my daughter, then fine."

McDonald said she has watched the entire video, which ends with her daughter walking in front of a local nursing home. She said the video does not show where Victoria goes from there.

I can't quite figure out her statement....perhaps the police will release more video to assist, obviously there must be a reason why they haven't?

I recall seeing this presser and Tara stating this. It did sound like she seen more video then we did but the reporter asks her if she seen any more video then the public and she said no.

Personally I don't believe there is video of them walking into a building.

[LuckyPenny]

I have copied my post from Thread # 1, regarding the co-op evidence:


I found this article referrencing evidence taken from Tori's old house....hmmmm...any ideas what that might have been?

"McDonald, Goris, Tori and Daryn moved two weeks ago Friday just five days before Tori vanished from a co-op housing complex on one side of the children's school to a tiny house on the other side.

Kim Clarke, board president of the co-op, said she went into the now vacant unit a few days ago to get it ready for the next tenant when police arrived shortly after. They asked her to leave, a forensic team came, and they removed some evidence, she said."
http://www.cfrb.com/media/912002/Mar...+disappearance

It seems a large coincidence that they moved 5 days before she vanished? I wonder what the charts say about this?

I would love to be a fly on the wall and know exactly what they found there.

Also found it strange, they moved 5 days before Tori vanished .. yet on the video where the blond reporter goes into Tori's bedroom with TM , TM says that she slept there only the night before the abduction. Where did she sleep before that? I know at one point TM's mother had interim custody of Tori, was Tori living with TM at the co-op? She has no bed at the new house & TM says its at her mother's house that werent settled in yet. Can anyone fill in the gaps there?

[Lexiintoronto]

Can you edit a post from days ago? I can edit all my posts tonight but not the one quoting Chachacha from yesterday.

Also in the FAQs there is this: If you have registered and are logged in, you may be able to edit and delete your posts (although the administrator may have turned off this option). Your ability to edit your posts may be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the forum.

Maybe someone wants to keep it there? I think it's out of my hands but I don't know. No pun intended. I think 'justbetweenus' us probably right about the thread being closed having something to do with it and to ask a mod. (I didn't know about the time limitations, but that makes sense.)

[justbetweenus]

Hi JustBetweenus,
This will definitely, definitely be my last post for a while.

If you were not able to get to those super-cropped videos, you can just go to Youtube and type in "Tori Stafford - cropped". 3 of them come up; I have no idea who made them.

After I heard the ex-husband mention today, right in front of the TM, that "Even if she was involved", or something to that effect, that the
focus needed to be on finding the girl, something came to mind.
I am still of the theory that something happened before the report was made, and still think that there was possibly some kind of accident. When he said that, I wondered if she may have had some kind of psychotic break, and that
she truly can't recall what happened or cannot actually discuss it with anyone. It wouldn't be unheard of to suddenly snap. If my take on the video makes any sense, and that she left with the girl heading eastbound on Walter, it may have been her wanting to get away and go somewere for a bit, then something just happened, and she never made it back with her. Considering the unfortunate 2 deaths she had in the family within the 9- month period, and other potentially stressful situations happening in her life all at the same time, it is a possibility, and a tragic one at that. I personally don't think the family family is trying to scam money. I think that they realize what may have transpired, and have been working to set up a trust fund to ensure that the boy will be properly taken care of in the future. That's just my take on it. And I hope that it is not correct. This is me, over and out.

Thanks nova. Great theory! Really gives one something to think about. I hope you're not gone too long. Hurry back!

[Turbododger]

I am re-reading Thread #1 on this case, and there is an article posted that states Tori was supposed to go to her Uncles house after school that day, at the co-op. Was this a reporting error? Does anyone know?

[siestalola]

I am re-reading Thread #1 on this case, and there is an article posted that states Tori was supposed to go to her Uncles house after school that day, at the co-op. Was this a reporting error? Does anyone know?

You know, I've often wondered about that myself. If she was suppose to go to the Uncle's why was she told by TM that morning that she could have friends over to watch High School Musical 3? Also, if TM was home when Daryn arrived from school then why was she going to her Uncle's? Or ... it could be what another poster said already..that a neighbour at the Co-op said Tori was suppose to go to her uncles. Maybe the neighbour was misinformed or perhaps someone called her and asked "have you seen Tori?" and the neighbour misunderstood it to mean she was suppose to be at her uncles.

[greatwhitenorth]

http://www.cfrb.com/media/912002/Mark+Carcasole%27s+report+on+the+latest+in+the+Tor i+Stafford+disappearance


I hope this works and if not sorry in advance. Just read this article and decided to share.
Information I don't think I have heard. Small details. Hope it works!

Here we go...

[ChaChaCha]

Is that the farm where the biker deaths were?

The farmhouse mysteriously burnt down almost exactly 2 years to the date (so 2008). The massacre was there, but the vehicles and contents were moved to another location (not related) where they were discovered in the morning... Likely photos available on the internet somewhere of the pre-burnt building... could well be the one in the dream - it was very rural with a few outbuildings.

We are a somber crew tonight (except for the brief appearance by NG). Maybe tomorrow she will interview KC. You will want to stay tuned for that one too!

I think in my heart that this is what is happening. At the very least it could mean that the goings on in London will be halted along with the obligatory publication ban on the reason. Having a little girl in danger would likely be reason enough. I get now how Tori's dad feels. He wants to choke that woman for what is happening to his little girl. TM screwed up good this time, and can't backpedal fast enough to get out of it. Rock and a hard place.

But you are all pretty wonderful. You take great care of me! I'm off to bed (with my doberman killer dog close by in case anyone is wondering)

Night all~

[justbetweenus]

The farmhouse mysteriously burnt down almost exactly 2 years to the date (so 2008). The massacre was there, but the vehicles and contents were moved to another location (not related) where they were discovered in the morning... Likely photos available on the internet somewhere of the pre-burnt building... could well be the one in the dream - it was very rural with a few outbuildings.

We are a somber crew tonight (except for the brief appearance by NG). Maybe tomorrow she will interview KC. You will want to stay tuned for that one too!

I think in my heart that this is what is happening. At the very least it could mean that the goings on in London will be halted along with the obligatory publication ban on the reason. Having a little girl in danger would likely be reason enough. I get now how Tori's dad feels. He wants to choke that woman for what is happening to his little girl. TM screwed up good this time, and can't backpedal fast enough to get out of it. Rock and a hard place.

But you are all pretty wonderful. You take great care of me! I'm off to bed (with my doberman killer dog close by in case anyone is wondering)

Night all~

Thanks ChaChaCha. I have a friend that is really into, and following that trial. Night.

[Salem]

Can you edit a post from days ago? I can edit all my posts tonight but not the one quoting Chachacha from yesterday.

Also in the FAQs there is this: If you have registered and are logged in, you may be able to edit and delete your posts (although the administrator may have turned off this option). Your ability to edit your posts may be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the forum.

Maybe someone wants to keep it there? I think it's out of my hands but I don't know. No pun intended.

idontknow - pm a mod and ask for help. You can edit your posts for up to 3 days. Then the post is closed, so to speak. A mod however, can edit a post I believe.

HTH,

Salem

[wen]

I have been following this site for a few days. I am amazed at how you are all so caring, having been drawn here to WS out of true concern. I live in Ontario and have been drawn by Victoria's sweet face. I truly believe it takes a community to raise a child and you all are showing me that this community is vast.

All of the theories that have been presented are very interesting.
Now, I am new to this site but I am going to give this a try.....

One point that keeps replaying in my mind is RS saying he recoginzes the sketch as someone he went to high school with. Right from the beginning he and his family said they recognized the sketch. I am going to try to post a link (being a newbie and all) but I know there is a more recent one.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_33969.aspx

Now that I am reminded of TM's recent family losses I am amazed she can hold it together for her 1 o'clock media gatherings.

[elepher50]

Is that the farm where the biker deaths were?

It is an old pix of K's farmhouse that was associated with the bikers deaths.

[Patience]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/05/01/9310441-sun.html

[crazyladi]

Question about Tori going to uncles after school, was that a typo??? i thought that her friends were coming over and her dad was to pick her up later.

Other question, how did her dad ? or stepdad die? was she even close to him? She comes from a very disfunctional family so who knows the relationship she had with him. Also the brother how did he die? Was she close to him?

Do you think she just had enough with everything around her, people dying, possible skitzophrinia?? Cant remember?

My sister is 33yrs old 5 yrs ago someone stole her identity, still not sure if that happened, but she started having skitzophrinic episodes with paranoia. She doesnt remember half of the things she did before she was medicated and that disease just came on like that. I am not saying she is skitz she could be bipolar or somthing else.

She could have suffered from post tramatic stress, or some other kind of issues in her life.

She looks like she was a trouble teenager, marriage didnt work out, having two kids on your own and no help (lets get realistic BF now I am sure is not a real father figure at all) No child support, father of the children rarely picking his kids up, being on welfare, doing drugs, CAS and social housing being called all the time, brother and father dying??

Maybe she hit the end of her rope? I have a daughter and sometimes i could strangle my daughter (not for real, but you know what I mean) girls are snotty and rude at that age and maybe Tori ticked her off in some way and she just lost it? She maybe called her brother and cousin and BF to help cover it up.. Maybe the Step bro is a biker and he has friends that helped out.

JMOO

okay also when i say strangle my daughter please dont think I mean i would actually do it lol...

[kaas]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/05/01/9310441-sun.html

I agree with the points made in this article. Such a difficult situation.

[kaas]

The motorcycle ride is scheduled for tomorrow and fortunately the weather is supposed to clear and mid teens C. It will be interesting to see how many riders turn out. The aunt had previously mentioned that the local chapter of the Red Knights (Firefighter riding club) have confirmed attending. If best wishes could bring Tori home she would be found by now safe and sound. Let us hope that this ride tomorrow is a welcome home celebration for this little girl. Regardless of circumstances surrounding this entire tragedy, my heart breaks for this child. May all those found to be complicit in this be brought to justice swiftly.

[Patience]

Crazyladi- yes, I wonder about inconsistensies (sp?) is this story as well. Was Tori supposed to go to her Uncle's home which had been reported or was she supposed togo home and watch a movie with 2 other children? Which other children and has this story been confirmed with their parents? Was this indeed her very first day going to and from school from her new home? What was the plan for Tori then? Why did Tori not go with the brother and then home? Why was she left alone? Why all this confusion on the very day that Tori was to see her father at 6pm? Or was it at 6pm?

Too many questions that are not answered. Why are the reporters not asking questions? What the h*ll is going on?

[Mazama]

Mazama did you by chance discuss your dream on the FB psychic group? It kinda sounds familiar.

Good morning everyone.

justbetweenus,
No, this is the only place I have ever spoken about it.

Last night the dream returned, this time I saw a face of a man. He appears in his late 40's to maybe mid 50's, has a beard and mustache with most of the facial hair and hair on his head as being white. Some flecks of black/darker color are visible but for the most part it is white. The size of the man I couldn't make out so I have nothing for height or weight.

Keep in mind that I do not claim to be psychic in any way. This is a recurring dream. It most likely is a result of the feeling of helplessness that I feel about this case. Should it be more than that I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[TripleA]

What is the name of TM's brother that recently died?

[MsRyber]

Is that the farm where the biker deaths were?

The Shedden biker deaths?

Shedden is located 10-15km from London, going west though.
So the difference is to go to Shedden off the 401, you take exit (the exits mark the distance in kilometers from the Detroit border) 164 (or 177). To go to Woodstock, you take 230 or 232.
So the two locations are "about" 60km apart.

My husband did not realize that the markers on the 401 are the kilometer marks from the Detroit border (or Sarnia crossing if you are taking the 402). He thought they were arbitrarily assigned! LOL!

To be brutally honest (my Uncle Kenny being amongst the bikers arrested after the whole thing), bikers generally settle it amongst themselves. I've never ever heard of a child kidnapping related to biker (or general) gang activity.
I asked my Uncle Kenny on MSN this morning if he thought she was taken for a drug debt. He said something (paraphrasing) that why take a mouthy, screaming kid when you could just as soon kill the Mom's boyfriend or the Mom for the debt itself?

(He wasn't intentionally being insensitive, he was just saying that bikers go the path of least resistance. If you have a debt to settle you go after the person, not the family. It just isn't "done".)

Why bring attention onto yourself and your guild (his words) when you could just pop the Mom/stepDad and go about "your business"? (again his words)

FWIW, Some food for thought for someone who has done two sentences for accessory (7 years each).

[elepher50]

What is the name of TM's brother that recently died?

I do believe that back in Thread 3 or 4 somebody said his name was Steve.

[kaas]

I do believe that back in Thread 3 or 4 somebody said his name was Steve.


Scott McDonald
http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/04/20/9170226-sun.html

[crazyladi]

What is the name of TM's brother that recently died?



scott mcdonald. Does anyone know where he lived? I cant find anything in the obituary in woodstock, maybe he lived elsewhere.

I am curious to find out how all these people died around her, than her child goes missing?

[Flowercb]

O.K. here I go with my theories. I was meditating and trying to let my mind go wherever it wanted. Like an aware dreamlike state (they call them lucid dreams). Anyway I thought popped in my head: Senior High School. I guess this could be referring to a Senior High School student. Fits the time and location.

Also I wonder if Tori was involved in any outside activities such as figure skating as I pictured an adult foot taking off a figure skate and rubbing her feet like they were in pain.

I know this sounds crazy to some but I have had pictures of details that have related to things that have happened.

Does anyone know if Tori was involved in figure skating and maybe met her abductor there?

[justbetweenus]

The Shedden biker deaths?

Shedden is located 10-15km from London, going west though.
So the difference is to go to Shedden off the 401, you take exit (the exits mark the distance in kilometers from the Detroit border) 164 (or 177). To go to Woodstock, you take 230 or 232.
So the two locations are "about" 60km apart.

My husband did not realize that the markers on the 401 are the kilometer marks from the Detroit border (or Sarnia crossing if you are taking the 402). He thought they were arbitrarily assigned! LOL!

To be brutally honest (my Uncle Kenny being amongst the bikers arrested after the whole thing), bikers generally settle it amongst themselves. I've never ever heard of a child kidnapping related to biker (or general) gang activity.
I asked my Uncle Kenny on MSN this morning if he thought she was taken for a drug debt. He said something (paraphrasing) that why take a mouthy, screaming kid when you could just as soon kill the Mom's boyfriend or the Mom for the debt itself?

(He wasn't intentionally being insensitive, he was just saying that bikers go the path of least resistance. If you have a debt to settle you go after the person, not the family. It just isn't "done".)

Why bring attention onto yourself and your guild (his words) when you could just pop the Mom/stepDad and go about "your business"? (again his words)

FWIW, Some food for thought for someone who has done two sentences for accessory (7 years each).

Thanks MsRyber. Interesting post. I must say I agree with your uncle concerning bikers taking a child.

[justbetweenus]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/05/01/9310441-sun.html

This was an interesting, and so true article. I'm going to sound like a FB stalker here, but I did notice on Tara's that she had her Iphone last September.

Does anyone know of a BF named Scott? I ask because again on her FB on Feb 5th she changes her status to single. Someone comments with: single? I thought you were with Scott. Another posts: single? I thought you were getting married soon.

There was no reply back.

[crazyladi]

O.K. here I go with my theories. I was meditating and trying to let my mind go wherever it wanted. Like an aware dreamlike state (they call them lucid dreams). Anyway I thought popped in my head: Senior High School. I guess this could be referring to a Senior High School student. Fits the time and location.

Also I wonder if Tori was involved in any outside activities such as figure skating as I pictured an adult foot taking off a figure skate and rubbing her feet like they were in pain.

I know this sounds crazy to some but I have had pictures of details that have related to things that have happened.

Does anyone know if Tori was involved in figure skating and maybe met her abductor there?

They dont look like the type to have their kids in any sports, the boy maybe because she seems to favor him even when Tori is missing. My opinion is I doubt it

[Mazama]

I'm curious, what is suppose to be the height of the woman in video with Victoria?

I'm looking here: http://www.ocpsaux.org/ where the descriptors are of Victoria, (which are confusing). If you look at the first line of Victoria's description it says she is 4' 5" to 4' 6" tall, however further down it says she is 4' 8" tall. So which is correct?

I'm asking because I read somewhere that the height of POI was adjusted from 5' to now say 5' 1" to 5' 3". Is this correct?

When I look at the video, Victoria's head appears to come to the shoulder of the POI, looking from the distance the video is shot from it looks like the POI is at least 8 to 10 inches taller than Victoria if not more. My 6 year old measures 10 inches from his shoulder to the top of his head, I measure nearly 12 inches from shoulder to top of head.

Wouldn't this make the POI at least 5' 5" tall or taller?

Anyone care to comment on this?

[crazyladi]

This was an interesting, and so true article. I'm going to sound like a FB stalker here, but I did notice on Tara's that she had her Iphone last September.

Does anyone know of a BF named Scott? I ask because again on her FB on Feb 5th she changes her status to single. Someone comments with: single? I thought you were with Scott. Another posts: single? I thought you were getting married soon.

There was no reply back.

That is very very interesting..... who is this scott character. Was she to marry him or marry her current on and off again BF...hmmmmmmmm.. She is a very shady character that put her children in danger of so many things. My Lord. Some people just do not have common sense, and they are completely selfish of their own needs. I have not dated since i left my daughters father 6 yrs ago. I do not want to bring someone in her life that could potentially harm her or get attached just incase it doesnt work out. Some people like an aquaintance I know has had numerous boyfriends in and out of her daughters life. I dont believe in it for so many reasons. My life is to protect my daughter and when she is older than will I try on a relationship, unless the most perfect person comes in my life than I would have to weight all options. I could never put men first in my daughters life that is so wrong in so many ways

[crazyladi]

I'm curious, what is suppose to be the height of the woman in video with Victoria?

I'm looking here: http://www.ocpsaux.org/ where the descriptors are of Victoria, (which are confusing). If you look at the first line of Victoria's description it says she is 4' 5" to 4' 6" tall, however further down it says she is 4' 8" tall. So which is correct?

Is there a link to the composite with the stats on POI?

I'm asking because I read somewhere that the height of POI was adjusted from 5' to now say 5' 1" to 5' 3". Is this correct?

When I look at the video, Victoria's head appears to come to the shoulder of the POI, looking from the distance the video is shot from it looks like the POI is at least 8 to 10 inches taller than Victoria if not more. My 6 year old measures 10 inches from his shoulder to the top of his head, I measure nearly 12 inches from shoulder to top of head.

Wouldn't this make the POI at least 5' 5" tall or taller?

Anyone care to comment on this?

I dont think that anyone knows the actual height of either, because they have changed so often

[Flowercb]

From AM640 News:

Toronto Police are concerned for the safety of a 4 year old boy. The child went missing from his home on Douglas Blvd., near Lakeshore Rd., in south Etobicoke around 8 a.m. Sent 9:03am

[crazyladi]

UPDATE: Missing 4 Year Old Etobicoke Boy
Toronto/AM640 News

5/1/2009


Toronto Police confirm they found a child who went missing from his home in the Douglas Blvd. and Lakeshore Blvd. area earlier this morning.

4 year old Garbriel Blake was discovered going for a ride on his older brother's school bus, several blocks away from his home.


Hes home..... good

[crazyladi]

UPDATE: Missing 4 Year Old Etobicoke Boy
Toronto/AM640 News

5/1/2009


Toronto Police confirm they found a child who went missing from his home in the Douglas Blvd. and Lakeshore Blvd. area earlier this morning.

4 year old Garbriel Blake was discovered going for a ride on his older brother's school bus, several blocks away from his home.


Hes home..... good


Where the frig are the parents???? they didnt notice he just took off on the bus and the brother didnt tell him to go home??? he is 4 for crying out loud

[Flowercb]

Should the police not be getting on the television more often and updating public and reminding them of the reward. It would be good if the OPP Officer could do this as he appears more professional. I don't know how that woman police officer could say that she feels Victoria is alive. What proof does she have of that? I hope she isn't thinking like mom and saying the psychics said so, so it is probably true. Don't get me wrong, I hope with all my heart that she is returned safe and sound and soon. I can't imagine what these people are putting the poor girl through. This is an urgent matter and anyone who knows anything must do the right thing and speak up!!

[greatwhitenorth]

Where the frig are the parents???? they didnt notice he just took off on the bus and the brother didnt tell him to go home??? he is 4 for crying out loud

not the best area......

[nova1998]

Question about Tori going to uncles after school, was that a typo??? i thought that her friends were coming over and her dad was to pick her up later.

Other question, how did her dad ? or stepdad die? was she even close to him? She comes from a very disfunctional family so who knows the relationship she had with him. Also the brother how did he die? Was she close to him?

Do you think she just had enough with everything around her, people dying, possible skitzophrinia?? Cant remember?

My sister is 33yrs old 5 yrs ago someone stole her identity, still not sure if that happened, but she started having skitzophrinic episodes with paranoia. She doesnt remember half of the things she did before she was medicated and that disease just came on like that. I am not saying she is skitz she could be bipolar or somthing else.

She could have suffered from post tramatic stress, or some other kind of issues in her life.

She looks like she was a trouble teenager, marriage didnt work out, having two kids on your own and no help (lets get realistic BF now I am sure is not a real father figure at all) No child support, father of the children rarely picking his kids up, being on welfare, doing drugs, CAS and social housing being called all the time, brother and father dying??

Maybe she hit the end of her rope? I have a daughter and sometimes i could strangle my daughter (not for real, but you know what I mean) girls are snotty and rude at that age and maybe Tori ticked her off in some way and she just lost it? She maybe called her brother and cousin and BF to help cover it up.. Maybe the Step bro is a biker and he has friends that helped out.

JMOO

okay also when i say strangle my daughter please dont think I mean i would actually do it lol...


I agree. I think it may have been her who did it alone and she can't tell the police where the remains are, because she was in a completely disassociated state at the time. The recent family deaths would have been a huge factor - she may have felt isolated and severely depressed at the time, and no one picked up the signs.

If she was not able to tell the police where she went, they likely estimated the approximate distance that she could have travelled and that is why they are looking where they are and as they are (if she had borrowed someone's car or rented a car - where there are security cameras and obvious mileage logbooks - I believe there is one on Norwich Ave. All she would have to do is go eastbound then south on Norwich for a bit). Although the police are still handing out flyers, it's not because I think they don't know who it is, but they have to ascertain where she went on that afternoon - when they find that out, then they will possibly find the girl.

There was Vince Li, who just snapped on the GH bus last summer, and
I found this link about examples of other people who had pyschotic breaks, both men and women: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/pdo/ll_pdo.nsf/vwPrint1/PDO_manslaughtersubstantialimpairment

If this is the case with her, I would imagine she is at very high risk to herself at the moment, and is being monitored at her home and monitored during her press conferences, and is likely on medication - that would perhaps explain some strange things that come up at her PC's. That may be why the son is staying there too (I don't believe he returned to school) - perhaps to help stabilize her and to shield him from the sitution as well. That's perhaps even why she is being allowed to talk about things in terms of an abduction - not only for her mental state, but also to protect him right now from what truly happened. One of the reporters asked her if she was in counselling, and she said yes, and she also mentioned she wrote out a 3-page letter to her daughter. That would all kind of make sense.

[crazyladi]

There was Vince Li, who just snapped on the GH bus last summer, and
I found this link about examples of other people who had pyschotic breaks, both men and women: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlin...tialimpairment


This was a guy who people said was nice and kind than goes on a greyhound bus and just out of no where beheads this young carni guy. Than as passengers got off the bus he was in there eating parts of him.. They found the guys ear in his pocket later.. So sick.. He said he heard voices telling him to do it..Do i believe that??? i dont friggen know but i do know he should have been sentenced to life without chance of parol. You have to be one sick twisted person to do that

[crazyladi]

Is there a presser today?

[Mazama]

lfpress is not live with anything...they will run a stream if there is a presser once it is concluded.

[another nosey mom]

Is there a presser today?

It was supposed to be live @ 1pm on london free press, but everyone just got told it wasn't live and to check their for updates later??? Their headlines said watch today @ 1pm... wondered why they changed their minds?

[Flowercb]

This is the site for the presser but nothing is happening.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/30/9303266-sun.html

[Flowercb]

I hope they are not dropping out as the London Free Press are there local publishers.

[another nosey mom]

snipped from yesterdays, press conf...
"I have written her a three-page letter and that is not really something that I want to share with everybody," McDonald replied to the first request.

Asked a second time, McDonald said she has begged countless times to the abductor before online and on television and at every vigil.

Has anyone really seen Tara beg countless times to the abductor????

[Flowercb]

Due to technical difficulties in the field, our live-stream from Woodstock was not available. We apologize. We will live-stream a recorded version of the press conference as soon as it is available. Check here or at lfpress.com for further details.

[siestalola]

This is the site for the presser but nothing is happening.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/30/9303266-sun.html

I know that the LF Press was experiencing tech diffficulties today so they couldn't carry it live. I am wondering, were you able to watch it on the link you posted? I'm curious to know, maybe there is a blackout on purpose....maybe something is up! Maybe LF Press wasn't experiencing tech diff.
Thanks

[Patience]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090430.BLATCH30ART2245/TPStory/National

[Patience]

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090430/excops_tori_090430/20090430/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[elepher50]

Just a few blocks away, Ms. McDonald's own mother, Linda Winters, was describing herself in an interview with The Globe and Mail as "one stop ahead of optimistic. I have to be."

The 54-year-old woman called "Nanna" by Tori and her brother, 11-year-old Daryn, seemed lost in a fog of memories of the children with whom she spent so much time, who each have bedrooms in her house, and whom she drove to school on the last morning the little girl went to school.



So, grandma did drive little Tori to school that morning she went missing.

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090430.BLATCH30ART2245/TPStory/National

[crazyladi]

So, grandma did drive little Tori to school that morning she went missing.

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090430.BLATCH30ART2245/TPStory/National

I feel for this women the most because she has probably raised these two kids the whole time while Tara has gone out and partied it up and whatever else she has done.

[Flowercb]

Psychic SS is answering questions about Tori today to anyone who want to ask on his website.

[another nosey mom]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/01/9317861.html

finally, they are speaking to "Tori" - can't wait to see the video

[another nosey mom]

WOODSTOCK — The father of missing Woodstock girl Victoria (Tori) Stafford made a direct and emotional promise to her Friday.

"Everybody is still looking for you and we will find you," Rodney Stafford said.

"We will find you baby. You are coming home," he said at the end of a short news conference.

The eight-year-old has been missing since April 8.

For the latest local coverage, read The London Free Press on the web or in pr

[Mazama]

WOODSTOCK — The father of missing Woodstock girl Victoria (Tori) Stafford made a direct and emotional promise to her Friday.

"Everybody is still looking for you and we will find you," Rodney Stafford said.

"We will find you baby. You are coming home," he said at the end of a short news conference.

The eight-year-old has been missing since April 8.

For the latest local coverage, read The London Free Press on the web or in pr

I'm glad the father spoke out to his little girl. It's about time someone did that. I wonder if this is because some of the people in the chat room at lfpress asked the moderator to have the reporters ask the father to speak out to Victoria.

I'm wondering why Rodney is now appearing at the pressers? Maybe someone suggested it would look more appealing to have him there and not just Tara. More united etc. His sudden appearance and willingness to talk shows me that someone must have said something to the family's.

I feel for him, he is obviously uncomfortable talking to the media in front of the camera's per his body language. That with the fact his sister and brother had to return home to their obligations must make this all the more heart wrenching for him, to not have someone very close that he can talk to/with or share emotions with. Poor guy. :(

[crazyladi]

What is bugging me alot is her stupid step brother (wanabee hulk hogan) in the background all the time at the pressers. I wonder if Rodney is afraid to talk. I dont know if her bro is a HA or what but it sure looks as though he has to watch anything he says, so I wonder what happened in the house after everyone left when he stated "even if Tara is involved"

The brother is all over the press conferences making sure she or anyone else doesnt say to much.

[elepher50]

What is bugging me alot is her stupid step brother (wanabee hulk hogan) in the background all the time at the pressers. I wonder if Rodney is afraid to talk. I dont know if her bro is a HA or what but it sure looks as though he has to watch anything he says, so I wonder what happened in the house after everyone left when he stated "even if Tara is involved"

The brother is all over the press conferences making sure she or anyone else doesnt say to much.

It doesn't look good having that goon in the background at every presser - he should at least stay inside the house. It sure looks like he is monitoring every move and statement. I don't think Rodney is afraid to talk - he just wants his little girl back and the heck with the goon. Speak up Rodney so all can hear - speak more often and speak loudly.

[Mazama]

I agree with you elepher50

[another nosey mom]

What is bugging me alot is her stupid step brother (wanabee hulk hogan) in the background all the time at the pressers. I wonder if Rodney is afraid to talk. I dont know if her bro is a HA or what but it sure looks as though he has to watch anything he says, so I wonder what happened in the house after everyone left when he stated "even if Tara is involved"

The brother is all over the press conferences making sure she or anyone else doesnt say to much.

you are so right, and yes he does remind me of Hulk Hogan,lol, He is like a body guard or something... I wonder what he is hiding, I have never seen anyone like this before, only lawyers that may stand beside people and cut in if the question weren't appropriate to answer, etc... but he is acting like he is there to "hide" something... maybe this is about him??? what is his background, he isn't going to school like Rodney, he isn't working - since he is always there... you know maybe the grandparents should stand up beside them and show support instead of some big burly loud mouth

[Flowercb]

Exactly correct about bouncer man. I bet they don't even want him there but let him stay because they don't want to "offend" him.

[Flowercb]

By the way SS says Tori did not know her abductor nor does he want to.

[Mazama]

By the way SS says Tori did not know her abductor nor does he want to.


Sorry, who is SS?

[crazyladi]

By the way SS says Tori did not know her abductor nor does he want to.


If she didnt know her abductor than why did she go so willingly? Because she was female? She wasnt holding her hand and forcing her.

[kaas]

As a grandmother, this just rips my heart out: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090430.BLATCH30ART2245/TPStory/National
"She said she has twice had "visions ... or dreams, whatever you want to call it" of Tori standing in her backyard, healthy and hale. "You just can't allow yourself, well I can't allow myself the what-ifs," she said. "I don't want to hear the assumptions, I don't want to hear the rumours. ... I have a little block in my brain and close it down ... you don't want to think the dark thoughts."

As a mother this makes some sense to me:
"If people were in our shoes, they would do absolutely anything too," Tara McDonald told the reporters who for weeks now have gathered at the doorstep of her small house for a daily briefing. "Whether it was getting on an airplane and flying to wherever, whether it was listening to crazy things like psychics the way we are.

"You are willing at this point to do absolutely anything."

[CarrieBean]

I thought it said at one of the pressers that the guy standing behind them was Tara's Uncle?

I'm curious who SS is also.

[another nosey mom]

If she didnt know her abductor than why did she go so willingly? Because she was female? She wasnt holding her hand and forcing her.

I don't know who SS is either....

maybe Tori didn't "Know" the person, but the person knew her ie; friend of parents - after hours, behind closed doors after kids are sleeping, or when kids aren't there

[kaas]

If she didnt know her abductor than why did she go so willingly? Because she was female? She wasnt holding her hand and forcing her.


It is possible to cause a child to follow a stranger willingly:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/08/02/qc-cedrika0802.html?ref=rss and Cedrika has never been found.

[another nosey mom]

I thought it said at one of the pressers that the guy standing behind them was Tara's Uncle?

I'm curious who SS is also.

Tori's uncle I think??

[elepher50]

I don't know who SS is either....

maybe Tori didn't "Know" the person, but the person knew her ie; friend of parents - after hours, behind closed doors after kids are sleeping, or when kids aren't there

SS is a physic (sp?) - Sinclair - google Tori Stafford, Sinclair - this is who I believe they are referring to.

[Mazama]

I thought it said at one of the pressers that the guy standing behind them was Tara's Uncle?

I'm curious who SS is also.

Or Tori's uncle, who would then be Tara's brother...

[Flowercb]

I don't know who SS is either....

maybe Tori didn't "Know" the person, but the person knew her ie; friend of parents - after hours, behind closed doors after kids are sleeping, or when kids aren't there

Am I allowed to mention psychics names on this site? Do a search, of tori S...., psychic and you should get his name.

[Doodlelover]

After reading some of the presser today and the article with Tara McDonald's Mom, it is glaringly obvious that Tara's words and reactions are much different than Rodney's and her Mom's.

Rodney is obviously uncomfortable with the media and just wants his daughter back. He is truly confused and seems to have no idea what the heck is going on. Tara's Mom sounds just like a parent or grandparent would sound, she is heartbroken and trying not to think dark thoughts.

Tara on the other hand is more about doing damage control. She is more angry that this person has hurt her family than she is worried about the hurt that this person could have done to Tori. What about Tori, surely what she is or has suffered should be uppermost in Tara's mind. She is trying to say the appropriate things like "you would do absolutely anything at this point" but it just seems contrived and out of context for a truly greiving parent. It sadly just doesn't ring true with me.

The one thing that truly struck me is when Tori first went missing, Tara said she hopes she's getting bathed and some time outside since it was so nice out. I was like WTH? I would be thinking I hope she is alive, I hope they aren't hurting her, I hope it isn't a pedophile that has her. These are the horrible things that would be going through my mind. Is it just me or is wondering if she gets a bath a little off?

I'd be praying to every God I know and I'd be screaming to every available audience, the media whomever. I'd be begging to have her returned every single chance I got, I'd be holding a picture, I'd be repeating the huge reward of $50 000, in hopes of shaking some info loose. I'd be out and all over looking and LE would be so sick of me, they'd look just to shut me up.

Why oh why aren't the parents of Tori and even Haleigh (other than her Mom Crystal) out there keeping their childs face and story fresh in everyone's mind.

One thing is certain, somebody, somewhere knows something and I would use my last breath trying to find that one person so that I could find out where and what happened to my child.

[Mazama]

SS is a physic (sp?) - Sinclair - google Tori Stafford, Sinclair - this is who I believe they are referring to.

Looked up the SS, had never heard of this person before. Don't know what to think about his posts. Seem rather vague and reaching to me.

[Mazama]

After reading some of the presser today and the article with Tara McDonald's Mom, it is glaringly obvious that Tara's words and reactions are much different than Rodney's and her Mom's.

Rodney is obviously uncomfortable with the media and just wants his daughter back. He is truly confused and seems to have no idea what the heck is going on. Tara's Mom sounds just like a parent or grandparent would sound, she is heartbroken and trying not to think dark thoughts.

Tara on the other hand is more about doing damage control. She is more angry that this person has hurt her family than she is worried about the hurt that this person could have done to Tori. What about Tori, surely what she is or has suffered should be uppermost in Tara's mind. She is trying to say the appropriate things like "you would do absolutely anything at this point" but it just seems contrived and out of context for a truly greiving parent. It sadly just doesn't ring true with me.

The one thing that truly struck me is when Tori first went missing, Tara said she hopes she's getting bathed and some time outside since it was so nice out. I was like WTH? I would be thinking I hope she is alive, I hope they aren't hurting her, I hope it isn't a pedophile that has her. These are the horrible things that would be going through my mind. Is it just me or is wondering if she gets a bath a little off?

I'd be praying to every God I know and I'd be screaming to every available audience, the media whomever. I'd be begging to have her returned every single chance I got, I'd be holding a picture, I'd be repeating the huge reward of $50 000, in hopes of shaking some info loose. I'd be out and all over looking and LE would be so sick of me, they'd look just to shut me up.

Why oh why aren't the parents of Tori and even Haleigh (other than her Mom Crystal) out there keeping their childs face and story fresh in everyone's mind.

One thing is certain, somebody, somewhere knows something and I would use my last breath trying to find that one person so that I could find out where and what happened to my child.

I think you are spot on with your observances. I agree.

[Flowercb]

They need to post that new reward poster all over town. Especially on the route that Tori took home that day. Is anyone from Woodstock. If so, have you seen the reward poster up. They need people to come out of hiding and speak.

[elepher50]

Does anybody know if the Dog Park in Woodstock - corner of Butler and Henry has been searched to any great extent? A couple of reasons I am asking - this park is close to the school and home and apparently Tara spent Family Day there with her children and her mother - so I am thinking that this may be a familiar spot to the family. When I google it, it does look fairly large and it is fenced.

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090430.BLATCH30ART2245/TPStory/National

I must be behind on this case, some guy in a limo offered unlimited cash to the kidnappers to bring her daughter back, what!?

[another nosey mom]

I think you are spot on with your observances. I agree.

you would think , if you the mom had a meeting with someone offering $ to find your child alive, why wouldn't you ask this person if it was okay to put an amount out there, at a press conf or in the paper that there is a $500,000 award bla,bla,blah, why does she just leave it so vague, with no other info, no tel #'s, etc... and she wonders why we all think this is suspicious. If there is a reward, show us the $ - take a page out in the paper and put an ad in it with a picture of your daughter.

[another nosey mom]

I must be behind on this case, some guy in a limo offered unlimited cash to the kidnappers to bring her daughter back, what!?

where have you been?? You better get reading, lol

[Turbododger]

Does anybody know if the Dog Park in Woodstock - corner of Butler and Henry has been searched to any great extent? A couple of reasons I am asking - this park is close to the school and home and apparently Tara spent Family Day there with her children and her mother - so I am thinking that this may be a familiar spot to the family. When I google it, it does look fairly large and it is fenced.

Bolded by Me: Elepher- Remember the Forensic Astrology people said something VERY SIGNIFICANT happened on Family Day to Tori? Tori met her abductor that day, wasn't that what was said? I have to go, but will check that later when I get home.

[LuckyPenny]

Are you sure she spent family day at the dog park? Does any of them have a dog? It's not really a spot for a family gathering. I mean there are dogs all over .. its specifically meant for dogs without leashes. It's a really busy populated place with owners and their dogs, if there was something there, it would have been found I'm sure .. it's really not that big.

[KR2tonenow]

Earlier back a poster had mentioned that Goris may have been involved with the Banditos trial. Has this been confirmed or denied?

[elepher50]

Are you sure she spent family day at the dog park? Does any of them have a dog? It's not really a spot for a family gathering. I mean there are dogs all over .. its specifically meant for dogs without leashes. It's a really busy populated place with owners and their dogs, if there was something there, it would have been found I'm sure .. it's really not that big.

I haven't seen any dogs with any of them - this note about being at the Dog Park on Family Day originated from TM's facebook comments. Wonder if they had dogs doing tricks or some other doggie type thing going on on Family Day that would attract them to the park. Apparently based on the comment they had a blast. Dunno .... don't know what to make of it.

[Sandee006]

you are so right, and yes he does remind me of Hulk Hogan,lol, He is like a body guard or something... I wonder what he is hiding, I have never seen anyone like this before, only lawyers that may stand beside people and cut in if the question weren't appropriate to answer, etc... but he is acting like he is there to "hide" something... maybe this is about him??? what is his background, he isn't going to school like Rodney, he isn't working - since he is always there... you know maybe the grandparents should stand up beside them and show support instead of some big burly loud mouth

Haven't been able to find anything on him, other than his name (J Jacklin) and that he stands there to end the presser as he sees fit

[another nosey mom]

Haven't been able to find anything on him, other than his name (James Jacklin) and that he stands there to end the presser as he sees fit

I thought his name was John McDonald or something?? that is why I thought it was Tara's brother - you know, the one she said she didn't have since she was an 'only child'

[Sandee006]

Sorry, I meant to write that his name is J Jacklin and not James...getting people confused..lol

Maybe he is a step-brother, hence the reason she would consider herself an only child

[another nosey mom]

Sorry, I meant to write that his name is John Jacklin and not James...getting people confused..lol

Maybe he is a step-brother, hence the reason she would consider herself an only child

thanks, that makes sense

[Doodlelover]

you would think , if you the mom had a meeting with someone offering $ to find your child alive, why wouldn't you ask this person if it was okay to put an amount out there, at a press conf or in the paper that there is a $500,000 award bla,bla,blah, why does she just leave it so vague, with no other info, no tel #'s, etc... and she wonders why we all think this is suspicious. If there is a reward, show us the $ - take a page out in the paper and put an ad in it with a picture of your daughter.

This is exactly what I am thinking.

Not only is the whole thing suspicious, but it's ridiculous too. I mean, who in their right mind would call Tara, get the number, then call the number to give their account info to get the ransom money. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that is a sure fire way to get caught.

If the perp wanted $$, there would have been a demand by now and actually the perp would have taken a child with parents that actually HAD money.

This is something else entirely. I believe Tara's side know what's going on. They may not be directly involved but they know who took her and why and they also act like they know they are not supposed to help the police find them either. I wouldn't be surprised if it does have to do with money or drugs owed or this trial and they've been told to keep their mouths shut or someone else is next. Tara not showing up for 4 days after it happened is VERY telling. They had to get their thoughts together, make a plan and decide how to handle it. This is their way of doing that. They are throwing up red herrings everywhere to take the heat off of who actually did it.

Sadly I don't think this is just a kidnapping and return type of thing. I think Tori is no longer with us and hasn't been since immediately after she was abducted. It makes me sad to say it but how often is a child ever returned or alive. Not very often. There is also a $50 000 reward and there is a reason nobody has stepped up with info. Somebody has info but is either in it too deep themselves or scared enough not to be tempted by the $50 grand. JMO

[LuckyPenny]

This is exactly what I am thinking.
Tara not showing up for 4 days after it happened is VERY telling. They had to get their thoughts together, make a plan and decide how to handle it. This is their way of doing that. They are throwing up red herrings everywhere to take the heat off of who actually did it.


I remember Tara saying that she had a previously bad experience with press before and that's why she was not around for the first 4 days. Not saying its true, its just what I remember her saying.

[LuckyPenny]

McDonald's brother, John Jacklin, hovered close behind them, ready to end the conference at a moment's notice.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/01/9312746-sun.html


So that is her brother. I'm guessing with the different last name its a step brother.

[Patience]

http://www.canada.com/news/Farmers+asked+watch+missing+Ontario+girl/1554984/story.html

[Patience]

http://www.canuckriders.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=769&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[concentric]

[QUOTE=Doodlelover;3685779]

The one thing that truly struck me is when Tori first went missing, Tara said she hopes she's getting bathed and some time outside since it was so nice out. I was like WTH? I would be thinking I hope she is alive, I hope they aren't hurting her, I hope it isn't a pedophile that has her. These are the horrible things that would be going through my mind. Is it just me or is wondering if she gets a bath a little off?

Interesting, because there is a case of a pedophile murderer in England, I believe, who was thought to have bathed a child in Phisohex (sp?) before disposing of the body.

[Patience]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090415.wblatch15art2249/BNStory/National

[Lexiintoronto]

After reading some of the presser today and the article with Tara McDonald's Mom, it is glaringly obvious that Tara's words and reactions are much different than Rodney's and her Mom's.

Rodney is obviously uncomfortable with the media and just wants his daughter back. He is truly confused and seems to have no idea what the heck is going on. Tara's Mom sounds just like a parent or grandparent would sound, she is heartbroken and trying not to think dark thoughts.

Tara on the other hand is more about doing damage control. She is more angry that this person has hurt her family than she is worried about the hurt that this person could have done to Tori. What about Tori, surely what she is or has suffered should be uppermost in Tara's mind. She is trying to say the appropriate things like "you would do absolutely anything at this point" but it just seems contrived and out of context for a truly greiving parent. It sadly just doesn't ring true with me.

The one thing that truly struck me is when Tori first went missing, Tara said she hopes she's getting bathed and some time outside since it was so nice out. I was like WTH? I would be thinking I hope she is alive, I hope they aren't hurting her, I hope it isn't a pedophile that has her. These are the horrible things that would be going through my mind. Is it just me or is wondering if she gets a bath a little off?

I'd be praying to every God I know and I'd be screaming to every available audience, the media whomever. I'd be begging to have her returned every single chance I got, I'd be holding a picture, I'd be repeating the huge reward of $50 000, in hopes of shaking some info loose. I'd be out and all over looking and LE would be so sick of me, they'd look just to shut me up.

Why oh why aren't the parents of Tori and even Haleigh (other than her Mom Crystal) out there keeping their childs face and story fresh in everyone's mind.

One thing is certain, somebody, somewhere knows something and I would use my last breath trying to find that one person so that I could find out where and what happened to my child.
(Bolded blue respectfully added by me). When I first heard her say that I thought Tori must be in the wilderness somewhere. "I hope you get to bathe" properly is something you say to someone who is going camping, isn't it?

And she hopes she gets to go outside because the weather is nice?! How about I hope she breaks free and runs home.

[Patience]

Ok sorry, but I can't post a link and post at the same time cause my computer is old. Anyway the neighbour says when Tara moved in she promptly offered her a vacuum and cleaning supplies. Now when my neighbours move in, I usually just wave and say "welcome neighbour". I don't promptly offer them my vacuum and cleaning supplies. Do you all do this? What is the protocol in your neighbourhood? Bleach by chance?

[Lexiintoronto]

Ok sorry, but I can't post a link and post at the same time cause my computer is old. Anyway the neighbour says when Tara moved in she promptly offered her a vacuum and cleaning supplies. Now when my neighbours move in, I usually just wave and say "welcome neighbour". I don't promptly offer them my vacuum and cleaning supplies. Do you all do this? What is the protocol in your neighbourhood? Bleach by chance? In Toronto we wave, then introduce ourselves and then we politely ignore each other. Maybe Woodstock is sort of small-town, here, let me get that box for you? You look messy, can I get you some cleaning supplies?

[Patience]

The lady that supplied the cleaning supplies and vacuum to Tara has a dog (I read a few asking about a dog). The night before Tori went missing, Tori and Daryn were at the Vacuum Lady's house. This is important for the timeline. I wonder what Tara was up to the night before, was she somewhere else or with the children at the Vacuum's Lady's house?

[PepperFritz]

Hello everyone:

I'm a brand spanking new member of this forum. I've been reading this thread several times a day ever since Tori went missing, but haven't joined in before now because my moderating duties on another (completely unrelated) forum keeps me quite busy. However, I've become almost obssessed with Tori, and have some tidbits of information that I thought you may find useful, so here I am. Of course, none of you know me from Adam and have no reason to "trust" what I have to say, but here it is for what it's worth:

I live in Ingersoll, where Tori's dad, grandmother, and other family members live, and it is as big a subject here as it is in Woodstock. I share a house with my cousin, who works in Woodstock as a nurse at the Caressant Care Nursing Home across the street from the school Tori was abducted from. As a result, I have had access to what I believe is reliable information, as two people peripherally related to the case also work at Caressant Care, and frequently communicate with my cousin about the case: a nurse who moonlights as the manager of the low-income housing complex where Tara McDonald used to live; and a PSW whose brother is on the Oxford County police force.

The brother police-officer says that Tara has been a suspect from day one, and a known drug-user; that she owns a puffy white jacket identical to the one worn by the woman in the video (which is now in the possession of the police); that she failed her polygraph test; and that no one in LE takes her "limo ride" story seriously. He also reported that she has been attending a methadone clinic in Woodstock on a regular basis since Tori has been missing, as she has been unable to meet with her usual supplier with all the cops and reporters around. He also referred to Tara's BF as a "bad guy" well known to police, and mentioned his involvement the 2004 biker drug bust you guys already know about. To my knowledge, he has said nothing about him being involved in the Banditos trial.

The manager says that the low-income housing complex where Tara used to live had to work through the courts for a year to get her evicted for non-payment of rent, and that by the time they were finally able to kick her out, she had not paid rent for an entire year. She says that there were issues with both the Children's Aid Society and Ontario Works, but did not specify what they were. She also mentioned drug use. After Tara was evicted and before Tori went missing, the manager entered her old apartment unit once, and says they left it a disgusting pig-sty. She noted that there were numerous empty prescription bottles laying about, for narcotic substances, prescribed to people other than Tara and her BF/family. Before she could go back in to to clean for the next tenant, police told her not to, as they needed to search it for evidence. She witnessed them taking away several large bags, including the prescription bottles.

Re the possible second video: Someone on this forum wondered if it might have come from security cameras at the nursing home. However, please note that there are NO security cameras (inside or out) at Caressant Care. There was also a reference to Tori perhaps being seen going into a building with the strange woman, and speculation that they may have gone into the nursing home for some reason. Please note that Tori's grandfather is a resident at Caressant Care, and that she has been there many times in the past. I don't know whose side of the family the grandfather is from.

I'm sure you're all aware of the psychics that have commented on this case. I just wanted to point out that in the interview with Beth Desilets (which can be viewed at the link below), she makes a reference to a "tough-looking heavy-set guy, grubby looking", which makes me think of the guy that's always standing behind Tara at the press conferences, who is her brother I believe. Also, her description of the house is similar to the one that a forum member saw in her dream -- a white house with a pointed roof. (She also mentions "Embro"; as I had to go to Embro to get my spring tires put on about a week ago, I ended up spending hours driving around the area looking for that house....)

That's all I can think of for now, will post again if I find out more. Hope some of the above is useful. You are all doing a fantastic job. I am praying that Tori is safe and will be found soon.


Beth Desilets interview:
http://www.calgarysun.com/news/canada/2009/04/17/9150691.html#/news/canada/2009/04/17/pf-9146786.html

[PenelopePetunia]

Good editorial

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/05/01/9310441-sun.html

[ChaChaCha]

Welcome Pepper! Lovely to have you here!

[Patience]

Welcome PepperFritz!! Thanks for joining and posting your thoughts as it's great to have locals tell us what is really going on there.

[PenelopePetunia]

Welcome PepperFritz!!

[Turbododger]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/01/9312746-sun.html

"But if in fact they just drop them off randomly and just take off . . . like the police said, (they) will find them."

TM is talking about Tori here, but she says "them". ????

I'm sorry but her standing there in the white coat is IMO deliberately taunting the public, and as someone mentioned passive-aggressive.

[PattyCake]

Hi all - very interesting posts lately. Much more detailed info than I ever knew from recent accounts.

Just a kind reminder to all -regarding WS TOS Rules - we are not allowed to use full names of anyone. Suspects, players, friends, families, workers, prior associates to people, etc. I'd hate to see anyone removed from WS for breaking rules that they may not be aware of. It's good to see how much discussion is devoted to Tori.

You can simply click 'edit' to change your posts if they contain a full name.

[ChaChaCha]

Pepper, I have had a chance to slowly read over your post and it jives with what I had heard from a friend with inside info. Her comment to me was that they were both addicts and that grandma had "interim custody" of at least Tori over the past year. I had heard too about the methadone clinic, which explains why TM did not appear the first four days. Withdrawal must be tough. I am as appalled as anyone with TMs behaviour and lifestyle, and I firmly believe that her choices and way of life sealed Tori's fate. TM acts as though someone stole her least favorite dog. Shame on her for her reckless indifference to her daughter's well being. After seeing "The Tara Show" a few times I am convinced that she deserves every bit of criticism that comes her way. Initially I believe the media were there to help Tori, and now are there to watch TM hang herself bit by bit. TM needs to understand that when you welcome media attention you have to take the good with the bad.

I am not convinced however that TM actually harmed Tori although I can understand why in the absence of a reasonable explanation for her disappearance it would be assumed by most that her mother was directly involved. I may have thought that at one time, but now I am more confident than ever that TM's relationship with JG is the catalyst. Once I realized that Tori could be used as leverage, it became clearer that Tori's disappearance was carefully planned and carried out. The more TM opens her mouth the more convinced I become that this is reality. As with KC there is denial and then defiance with TM, and tall tales based on the smallest truths. TM & KC have similar personality characteristics as well when pressed for the truth...their phrasing is quite the same at times, an inability to show true emotion (or even imitate it well) and self-pity when the crushing wall of public opinion comes crashing down. I am digressing, but that's okay.

I hope that the OPP are playing their cards carefully to protect Tori if that is possible (I do not think that she has been hurt) and still keep the London proceedings on target. I still feel that there is a co-relation between the two and that the most explosive part is yet to come. I just hope that Tori does not become collateral damage.

If local talk is that TM is directly involved, that is likely a good thing since it will allow the OPP to complete their investigation and pounce. Which is what they do best!

The most obscene part of this is "The Tara Show". I cannot believe that TM doesn't realize that she is not convincing and that the daily presser distracts from Tori herself. It's a rock and a hard place. I wonder if she was to cease with the pressers if the intense scrutiny would subside sufficiently to allow Tori to come home. To her father.

I wonder now if we could please have a thread just for links and facts. So many quotes and articles from the early days are falling away from us and they are useful for tracking the dates and reactions of those involved.

Pepper - will you be cruising Woodstock this weekend? Be sure to bring your camera! We want to see pictures of you on a Harley with John John the bouncer bro!!!

[Doodlelover]

[QUOTE=PepperFritz;3686614]Hello everyone:

I'm a brand spanking new member of this forum. I've been reading this thread several times a day ever since Tori went missing, but haven't joined in before now because my moderating duties on another (quite unrelated) forum keeps me quite busy. However, I've become almost obssessed with Tori, and have some tidbits of information that I thought you may find useful, so here I am. Of course, none of you know me from Adam and have no reason to "trust" what I have to say, but here it is for what it's worth:

I live in Ingersoll, where Tori's dad, grandmother, and other family members live, and it is as big a subject here as it is in Woodstock.


Snipped for space.

Hi Pepperfritz

I, too am in Ingersoll and as you said, people here are very concerned about Tori too.

Thanks for adding your info. Being somewhat local, I have heard a ton of rumors but some are consistant and some come from people close to the case. It's good to hear them again from someone else close. It then feels like there must be some truth to all of this.

I have always felt that Tara at the very least knows what happened and why, and may even be involved.

[Sandee006]

Hi all - very interesting posts lately. Much more detailed info than I ever knew from recent accounts.

Just a kind reminder to all -regarding WS TOS Rules - we are not allowed to use full names of anyone. Suspects, players, friends, families, workers, prior associates to people, etc. I'd hate to see anyone removed from WS for breaking rules that they may not be aware of. It's good to see how much discussion is devoted to Tori.

You can simply click 'edit' to change your posts if they contain a full name.

Sorry, didn't know about this rule.
I've edited my post to only have a first initial and a last name (is that ok??).
Also, my original post was quoted...anyway to change that?

[PepperFritz]

Just a kind reminder to all -regarding WS TOS Rules - we are not allowed to use full names of anyone.

Gotcha. I've gone back and fixed that in my post.

[PattyCake]

Sorry, didn't know about this rule.
I've edited my post to only have a first initial and a last name (is that ok??).
Also, my original post was quoted...anyway to change that?

:) No problem, why I posted the note :blowkiss:
I am digging in TOS rules to find out the answer as I'm not a moderator.

[Turbododger]

Okay, Chachacha, I started a new thread for only known FACTS and LINKS related to this case here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83738

I am working on bringing over the links from the other threads.

[nursebeeme]

:canada::Welcome-12-june::bud:Welcome to Websleuths PepperFritz! You seem to have a LOT of very great inside information. Thank you so much for sharing it too!

[Scanner]

I am sooooo angry with yet another case involving innocent children and lack of appropriate parental skills. My heart not only aches for Tori, but her brother as well. Who knows what these children have witnessed in their short lives? What have they been subjected to? Where's Tori? What is SHE going through right now??? Poor Daryn.
And, will Tara be struttin' herself tomorrow at this biker rally, totally in her element, rakin' in the dough?
This sickens me!

[KR2tonenow]

OK, I am bringing this forward because it was brought up in Thread #1 I think, this could be significant or not.

This is a trial currently being held with 6 members of the Bandidos up for Murder.

What is the connection of this biker/BBQ tomm. and has police checked into this field that is mentioned in article?



TheStar.com | Ontario | Bandidos defiant after ouster, trial hears (http://www.thestar.com/article/622543)
BIKER DEATHS TRIAL. TheStar.com | Ontario | Bandidos defiant after ouster, trial hears. Bandidos defiant after ouster, trial hears. Email Story ...


<snipped>near a farmer's field near the hamlet of Shedden, about a half hour's drive west of London.

Tara McDonald, "just leave her in a field!!"

[PepperFritz]

ChaChaCha:

All I can say about TM with a reasonable amount of certainty (based on my observations of her behaviour and comments) is that there is definitely something not right there: Her behaviour and responses are not situation appropriate; she is self-absorbed and attention-seeking to the point of narcissism; she lies and distorts and is clearly untrustworthy; and she appears to know more about Tori's disappearance than she is telling.

Does this mean that she is directly responsible for Tori's disappearance? Anything is possible at this point. However, I am also mindful of a great line from an episode of Law and Order about husband wrongly accused of killing his wife; when the detectives confronted him all of his bad behaviour in his marriage, he said "Okay, ya got me. I'm a lying, arrogant, cheating bastard -- but I'm a lying, arrogant, cheating bastard who didn't kill his wife". In other words, TM could be a really terrible mother and human being, and still not be involved in her daughter's disappearance. For me, judgment has to be suspended until further information/evidence becomes available.

My "gut" feeling is that this is going to end very badly. And that the longer it goes on, the worse it's gonna be. So I hope it ends soon, with Tori safe and sound.

[Scanner]

Welcome Pepperfritz! I'm interested in 'Ingersolls take' on this limo story. Anyone you know see the phantom limo?

[PenelopePetunia]

Good editorial

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/05/01/9310441-sun.html


Sorry for posting my own quote. However, I think what this man is saying makes much sense. Being quirky and somewhat unconventional, TM is keeping her daughter's name in the media.

I remember, almost 2 years ago, when news of Cedrika's dissapearance... dissapeared. Media left the town of Trois-Rivières and one had to dig through google to get any info. Local news stopped airing stories or pressers.

So.. I must give TM kudos for her unconventional ways... She's keeping Tori in the news.

just my thoughts...

[wen]

Here is a link to SS's post for today. Sort of looks like a tattoo
http://propheticwisdom.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/psychic-sterling-sinclair-4th-tori-stafford-auracature-may-1-2009/

[PepperFritz]

I, too am in Ingersoll and as you said, people here are very concerned about Tori too.... I have heard a ton of rumors but some are consistant and some come from people close to the case. It's good to hear them again from someone else close. It then feels like there must be some truth to all of this....

Yes, I hear "rumours" too, but don't pay much attention unless I can find some reasonable verification, or evidence the person the information came from might be close enough to know what they're talking about. My cousin comes home from Caressant Care with a lot of "I heard that..." kind of gossipy stuff, but I gradually whittle it down to what came directly from the manager and the PSW whose brother is a cop. The demeanor of those two when speaking to my cousin is also important -- they speak of it only if she asks, confide the information very discreetly, and are not going around blabbing to whoever will listen in an attention-seeking manner. And, as you say, when you hear the same information coming from other reasonably reliable sources, you figure there has to be some degree of accuracy there.

I think you and I may have met when we were both walking our dogs. I recall meeting someone with a GoldenDoodle and much smaller dog in the park area beside the Public Works building on Pemberton Street. I have a BorderCollie/Spaniel cross and walk my cousin's dog as well, a white Bichon Frise. I take them to all the various parks and trails in and around Ingersoll, and always drop in at the off-leash park in Woodstock whenever I'm there doing something else.

[PenelopePetunia]

Here is a link to SS's post for today. Sort of looks like a tattoo
http://propheticwisdom.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/psychic-sterling-sinclair-4th-tori-stafford-auracature-may-1-2009/

I was thinking the same thing. Some sort of tribal 'rose' tatoo...

If google 'tribal tattoos' there are some similar drawings.

[PepperFritz]

Welcome Pepperfritz! I'm interested in 'Ingersolls take' on this limo story. Anyone you know see the phantom limo?

Nope. Amazing how far and wide this limo went with not a soul noticing it, eh?

I used to see a WHITE limo driving around Ingersoll a lot, and I assumed that it belonged to someone who rented it out to people in the surrounding area, but lived in Ingersoll himself. But now that I think of it, I don't recall seeing it for quite a while now. That's the only "limo" I've seen in Ingersoll or Woodstock.

[PepperFritz]

Pepper - will you be cruising Woodstock this weekend? Be sure to bring your camera! We want to see pictures of you on a Harley with John John the bouncer bro!!!

Oh Gosh, thank God I have no reason to be in Woodstock tomorrow. I usually have a reason to be there every few days or so. But tomorrow I will be heading in the other direction, to take care of some business in London....

[Turbododger]

Some of the posts on here are showing up in the FB group, so the locals are aware...Hopefully a bunch of the idgits posting insensitively on there don't start coming here.

[ChaChaCha]

Welcome Pepperfritz! I'm interested in 'Ingersolls take' on this limo story. Anyone you know see the phantom limo?

Ooooooh! I have a question too!

TM indicated early on that she once had a very bad experience with the press that she didn't want to repeat. Does ANYONE know what that experience was, what her involvement was and if it had anything to do with April 2006 or the April 2008 fire at the farm?

[ChaChaCha]

Some of the posts on here are showing up in the FB group, so the locals are aware...Hopefully a bunch of the idgits posting insensitively on there don't start coming here.

Crap and more crap. Is that one I peed on over there yet?

Suggesting Pepper that you edit your post a bit if you can - remove some personal references. Even I could find you with the doggies!

Seriously.

Turbo, is it bad yet? Is there such a thing as a private forum??? Or does that defeat the purpose?

[crazyladi]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/01/9312746-sun.html

"But if in fact they just drop them off randomly and just take off . . . like the police said, (they) will find them."

TM is talking about Tori here, but she says "them". ????

I'm sorry but her standing there in the white coat is IMO deliberately taunting the public, and as someone mentioned passive-aggressive.

I have mentioned that before she always says them, not her....

And good to have you on board pepper I found your post to be very well written and had some information that I had questioned before. I am all over that step brother... something is not right about him

[ChaChaCha]

I have mentioned that before she always says them, not her....

And good to have you on board pepper I found your post to be very well written and had some information that I had questioned before. I am all over that step brother... something is not right about him

John John? (kinda like BAM BAM but with a scrap of material on his head?)

He's likely a lawyer in real life. Arrives there in his Mercedes, hops across the fences in the back yard, knocks on the door, and then changes in the washroom before he goes outside. He charges $275 a hour, and so if the presser goes too long it costs TM more. That's why he's always tapping his foot and looking at his watch - trying to get back to the office for a big corporate deal that is closing. Man, he's got to get back into the house, record his time docket on his blackberry, get changed and back to the office. Very important guy. You may laugh now, but just wait - I betcha he's council and pretty soon he'll be smuggling her in a bracelet with Tori's name on it so she can use it like a cheat note during pressers - just in case she forgets her kid's name like usual.

he he he!

[Lexiintoronto]

This was posted during the first days of Tori's disappearance, but I think it's a moving tribute to Tori and the community that is working so hard to find her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deIiJLaZ9Jk

[wen]

SS devoted today to this case. I have only heard of SS since watching this site and am not totally sold on psychics. It is interesting reading though. He posted a pic previously that also looked like a tattoo but have a look and see how it may also be interpreted as a map of a campground.
This is the general site.

http://propheticwisdom.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/psychic-sterling-sinclair-posts-on-facebook-and-devotes-friday-april-1-2009-exclusively-to-the-tori-stafford-search/#comments

[PepperFritz]

Here's something interesting that sheds some light on TM's boyfriend's "associates":

On April 16/09 the Woodstock Sentinel-Review reported:

James Goris, 31, and his co-accused, Kevin Pommer and Bill Serediak, were making their third appearance on charges of possession under $5,000 in relation to a stolen snowblower.

I decided to look up the other two fellows involved in the snowblower theft, and found this reported in the London Free Press on March 3/09:

Two people face drug charges after police in Woodstock seized dozens of marijuana plants from a Riddell Street home. Oxford Community police said officers searched the home Friday and found an indoor marijuana grow operation and a cannabis resin production operation. Police seized 81 marijuana plants, 1.6 litres of cannabis resin in an unfinished state and eight grams of resin in a finished state. The value of the drugs seized is estimated at about $80,000. Kevin Pommer, 32, and Penny Martin, 28, are each charged with two counts for production of a controlled substance and one count of possession for the purpose of trafficking.


Can't help but wonder what this Penny Martin looks like, and whether she owns a puffy white coat.....


Links:

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1526564&auth=Sentinel-Review

http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/03/03/8597911-sun.html

[crazyladi]

John John? (kinda like BAM BAM but with a scrap of material on his head?)

He's likely a lawyer in real life. Arrives there in his Mercedes, hops across the fences in the back yard, knocks on the door, and then changes in the washroom before he goes outside. He charges $275 a hour, and so if the presser goes too long it costs TM more. That's why he's always tapping his foot and looking at his watch - trying to get back to the office for a big corporate deal that is closing. Man, he's got to get back into the house, record his time docket on his blackberry, get changed and back to the office. Very important guy. You may laugh now, but just wait - I betcha he's council and pretty soon he'll be smuggling her in a bracelet with Tori's name on it so she can use it like a cheat note during pressers - just in case she forgets her kid's name like usual.

he he he!



does he look native in any way???? My cousins are 1/2 native and they dont really look like it but if you look really closely you can tell..

[ChaChaCha]

Here's something interesting that sheds some light on TM's boyfriend's "associates":

On April 16/09 the Woodstock Sentinel-Review reported:


I decided to look up the other two fellows involved in the snowblower theft, and found this reported in the London Free Press on March 3/09:


Can't help but wonder what this Penny Martin looks like, and whether she owns a puffy white coat.....


Links:

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1526564&auth=Sentinel-Review

http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/03/03/8597911-sun.html



Likely needed the snowblower to blow out the driveway at the grow-op! Seriously though when you think snowblower you kinda think of those machines that people use for their sidewalks - thing is, it could have been a big honking John Deere - maybe it had a "grass" attachment ! hahahahaha!

Interesting crew around there... Excellent work on your part!!!!

[ChaChaCha]

does he look native in any way???? My cousins are 1/2 native and they dont really look like it but if you look really closely you can tell..

No... I don't think so anyways.... he just looks like he's a bouncer at Nikki's to tell you the truth. His presence, at least to the general public, is in my opinion detrimental to any value that may be gained by doing a presser. However,, if you were looking to show your source of "support" or that you had a security guard in place in case anyone else decides to jump the fence, that would be a good way to show that you are not vulnerable.

Did you want me to do another NG interview and see what he's up to?

[PenelopePetunia]

Crap and more crap. Is that one I peed on over there yet?

Suggesting Pepper that you edit your post a bit if you can - remove some personal references. Even I could find you with the doggies!

Seriously.

Turbo, is it bad yet? Is there such a thing as a private forum??? Or does that defeat the purpose?

When they posted the link on facebook.. there were 80 or so lurking...

[Danaya]

Pepper: You should be more careful when posting personal information, you don't know who can be lurking here escpecially now that it's been posted on Facebook. This may get around that you are leaking insider information and I just don't want to be concerned for you.

Anyway, man, what the heck is wrong with some parents? Escpecially Moms, Moms are supposed to be there to protect their young and doing drugs and crap? That's soooo high school.

[justbetweenus]

Are you sure she spent family day at the dog park? Does any of them have a dog? It's not really a spot for a family gathering. I mean there are dogs all over .. its specifically meant for dogs without leashes. It's a really busy populated place with owners and their dogs, if there was something there, it would have been found I'm sure .. it's really not that big.

I haven't read the whole thread, but unless someone else has stated the same, I think it was likely me where the "dog day in the park" came from.

I do not know 100% that this is true.

Tara had made this statement on her status quote option on her FB.

I am pretty sure it was the astrology forum, where one of our experts stated concern that this family day date could possibly be the day Tori met her abductor. I felt compelled to post what I knew incase it could help bring this little girl home.

I live in a very small town. We don't have a dog park. In fact to be honest I've never been to one; I'm probably going to show my blonde roots here, but is it odd for a family to visit a dog park if they don't have a dog?

I'm thinking here (oh no!! lol) of a couple of my daughters friends that have children, and want a dog badly but they aren't allowed to have one where they live. Maybe this is the case with this family too and they enjoy going to the park watching the dogs?

Or maybe it's just a park close to home, that they enjoy?

I hope no one takes me the wrong way here because I really do enjoy reading everyone's opinions; and I also believe Tara very well could be responsible for Tori's disappearence, but I sometimes feel words are being twisted, to fit the theory that she is guilty.

I hope everyone has a great weekend!

[doubletrouble]

Ok sorry, but I can't post a link and post at the same time cause my computer is old. Anyway the neighbour says when Tara moved in she promptly offered her a vacuum and cleaning supplies. Now when my neighbours move in, I usually just wave and say "welcome neighbour". I don't promptly offer them my vacuum and cleaning supplies. Do you all do this? What is the protocol in your neighbourhood? Bleach by chance?

In Toronto we wave, then introduce ourselves and then we politely ignore each other. Maybe Woodstock is sort of small-town, here, let me get that box for you? You look messy, can I get you some cleaning supplies?

love it........and how true is that?!?!?!?!:crazy:

[doubletrouble]

Here is a link to SS's post for today. Sort of looks like a tattoo
http://propheticwisdom.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/psychic-sterling-sinclair-4th-tori-stafford-auracature-may-1-2009/

oookkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay????????

[siestalola]

no... I don't think so anyways.... He just looks like he's a bouncer at nikki's to tell you the truth. His presence, at least to the general public, is in my opinion detrimental to any value that may be gained by doing a presser. However,, if you were looking to show your source of "support" or that you had a security guard in place in case anyone else decides to jump the fence, that would be a good way to show that you are not vulnerable.

Did you want me to do another ng interview and see what he's up to?

yes please!

[Flowercb]

oookkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay????????

Did you see his last auracauture of this case. It looks like a map of Pinehurst Lake Conservation Area.

[Flowercb]

love it........and how true is that?!?!?!?!:crazy:

Her neighbour is her land lady. She has an interest in keeping the place clean.

[LuckyPenny]

I found from a reliable source , cant mention sorry, that before Tori is picked up, there is a video of the white coat lady walking to the school to get her. Then she is shown again leaving with Tori. Also that 2 students saw TM putting Tori into a car (not sure where though) - they were interviewed a few times from police.