Canada-Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #16

[ThoughtElf]

Please continue here.

thread #15 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84527&highlight=stafford)
thread #14 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84429&highlight=stafford)
thread #13 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84417&highlight=stafford)
thread #12 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84377&highlight=stafford)
thread #11 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84216&highlight=stafford)
thread #10 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84130&highlight=stafford)
thread #9 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84030&highlight=stafford)
thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83955&highlight=stafford)
thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83879&highlight=stafford)
thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83778&highlight=stafford)
thread #5 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83674&highlight=stafford)
thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83596&highlight=stafford)
thread #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83483&highlight=stafford)
thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83332&highlight=stafford)
thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82741&highlight=stafford)


Facts & Links Only Thread (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83738&highlight=Canada-Victoria)

Current Rumour Thread


Forensic Astrology - Tori Stafford Thread

[margaret_diane]

Thanks for all this info. My own belief is that it was TLM driving with Tori right after the abduction and that they went straight to the Esso station after the abduction (timeline). It would be a big coincidence for both her and MTR to be wearing white jackets on the day of the abduction (as seen in the video clip). Also, if MTR had the car, why not just pick up TLM and Tori closer to the school? It's no more of a risk than TLM walking a greater distance with Tori, as they apparently didn't know (or even think of) video cameras.



Your post (respectfully snipped by me) made me wonder:
- why are we all ASSUMING (most of us anyhow) that one of the accused was driving the car at the time the pic was captured at the Esso station? Any possibility it COULD be anyone else? Example - didn't people exclaim quite loudly after the video was released that TM owned a white coat as well? Just makes me wonder (not accusing her!) -- but IF TM was driving the getaway car, it might lend itself to some of her presser statements "got too big too fast", "mildy vindictive" ect. Might also explain some other things --- TM has given conflicting statements about the timeline... noting that Daryn returned home at this time... NO WAIT! THAT time... ect.... what IF she were driving the car? Then Tori wouldn't have been freaking out yet -- and then there wouldn't be a worry about having the windows rolled down. Just a theory, but I wonder how plausible it might be?

- second possibility -- what if TLM drove the car to the gas station and this is where they picked up MR? We ASSUME someone gassed up the car -but we don't KNOW this to be factual. He could've just been waiting there, or purchasing gum or something silly while waiting... maybe TLM told Tori something like "I'll drive you home in one second, just gotta pick up MR"... and maybe THAT kept Tori (assuming she was in the car when pic snapped)... calm?? She might've THOUGHT her mother's "friend" because really don't all of our kids consider a parent's mildest aquaintences to be 'friends'!!)......was really gonna return her home and spare her the long walk home from school....
Totally possible I think.

[matou]

Doubtfully, TLM was not alone in the car with Tori, considering that she would have had to get out of the car to pay for the gas... I am assuming that this station is a self-service one. She would not have left the child alone. It is odd to plan an abduction, carry it out and then decide to get gas. It makes sense that the fill-up occurred before the abduction.

If TML told Tori to look after the dog(s), then Tori would stay put, most likely.

[nflder]

Don't think I have seen this quote posted (http://www.parrysound.com/press/1242997328/)yet by neighbours in Parry Sound about TLM & her Mom:

"The mother was kind of scary, always drinking," said a former neighbour,

I don't know about y'all but I thought she was pretty scary looking and maybe a little nuts in the video "Amateur sleuths help police in Stafford case" http://video.lfpress.ca/video/_/_/5828787001/_/23978134001
I wouldn't trust her with my dog either!!

[ThoughtElf]

Some of Today's Case Headlines:

Amber Alerts reviewed in wake of Tori Stafford case (http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/640672)

Tape shows car minutes after Tori taken (http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/640348)

Stafford murder weighing on local minds (http://www.centrewellington.com/news.php?id=1139)

[buddybuddy]

wow, so not much new to report in terms of this whole search/car seat thingy....
What are everyones thoughts on how MTR will be acting in court Thursday..anyone think we will see another sob fest?

[another nosey mom]

wow, so not much new to report in terms of this whole search/car seat thingy....
What are everyones thoughts on how MTR will be acting in court Thursday..anyone think we will see another sob fest?

I think he will be by video, so we probably won't see much... only time will tell

[PepperFritz]

...why are we all ASSUMING (most of us anyhow) that one of the accused was driving the car at the time the pic was captured at the Esso station? Any possibility it COULD be anyone else? Example - didn't people exclaim quite loudly after the video was released that TM owned a white coat as well? Just makes me wonder (not accusing her!) -- but IF TM was driving the getaway car, it might lend itself to some of her presser statements "got too big too fast", "mildy vindictive" ect.....

"TM", as in Tori's mother? I don't follow your theory at all. What would TM's motive be in collaborating with TLM and MR in kidnapping her own daughter?

[ThoughtElf]

TLM's Thursday appearance is scheduled for 9:00. Anyone read/hear what time MR is scheduled to appear by video?

[Mystic]

The car is a four door though.

thanks Mazama, :eek: my big goof and can't believe it as I looked at the picture so many times.. I'm having a tea now, should wake up the brain cells

[PepperFritz]

...why are we all ASSUMING (most of us anyhow) that one of the accused was driving the car at the time the pic was captured at the Esso station? Any possibility it COULD be anyone else? Example - didn't people exclaim quite loudly after the video was released that TM owned a white coat as well? Just makes me wonder (not accusing her!) -- but IF TM was driving the getaway car, it might lend itself to some of her presser statements "got too big too fast", "mildy vindictive" ect.....

"TM", as in Tori's mother? I don't follow your theory at all. What would TM's motive be in collaborating with TLM and MR in kidnapping her own daughter?

[wubblewobble]

My neighbours two doors down? You know them? :eek:

The ones with 50,000 Christmas lights still up, an Elvis statue in the front window and a little dark-skinned 'fishing boy' statue on the front steps (complete with an Xmas bow still on his neck?)

I am sooooo not kidding. We live in a pretty nice neighbourhood. 'Cept for them.

I should go take a picture.
Ha, you think you've got it bad. Check out this house!
Thankfully I don't live next door but I do live in the neighbourhood & I've watched it get worse & worse over the years. They started with birdbaths & plastic swan & lamb planters but then they went nuts.

http://stylenorth.ca/blog/2008/06/crazy-neighbours/

[redtrillium]

wow, so not much new to report in terms of this whole search/car seat thingy....
What are everyones thoughts on how MTR will be acting in court Thursday..anyone think we will see another sob fest?

[Respectfully snipped]

There has been no news about the seat found in Kitchener, but this small news article states the police are still following up on tips of found seats:
http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/486277

[canadiansugarangel]

The object I mean is not on Parkinson across the street from the lot. It's on the lawn to the right of the parking lot where the white truck and hedge are - I believe it's the south-east corner. It looks like an old-fashioned mailbox. Thank you. :)
can someone point me this picture, I am near there everyday, I will try to take a peak tomorrow if I know which street the "mailbox" is on.

[sillybilly]

Doubtfully, TLM was not alone in the car with Tori, considering that she would have had to get out of the car to pay for the gas... I am assuming that this station is a self-service one. She would not have left the child alone. It is odd to plan an abduction, carry it out and then decide to get gas. It makes sense that the fill-up occurred before the abduction.

Not sure it has been confirmed they gassed up ... maybe passing through the gas station lot to make a turn-around?

[sillybilly]

"TM", as in Tori's mother? I don't follow your theory at all. What would TM's motive be in collaborating with TLM and MR in kidnapping her own daughter?

Just a thought, but depends on how much money one owes I guess ... maybe collateral gone horribly wrong? Ugh

[sillybilly]

ha, you think you've got it bad. Check out this house!
Thankfully i don't live next door but i do live in the neighbourhood & i've watched it get worse & worse over the years. They started with birdbaths & plastic swan & lamb planters but then they went nuts.

http://stylenorth.ca/blog/2008/06/crazy-neighbours/

yikes !!

[antiquegirl]

Your post made me wonder:
- why are we all ASSUMING (most of us anyhow) that one of the accused was driving the car at the time the pic was captured at the Esso station? Any possibility it COULD be anyone else?

Respectfully snipped.

LE has stated that the suspect and Tori were in the car. Const. Maitland used the singular for "suspects" and we don't know if that was a slip of the tongue or not. If anyone has that link, please?

(MD - in the blow-up of the close-up you sent me, I can even see TLM's thin-framed eyeglasses on the driver's face.)

[margaret_diane]

My question is why would Rod McClintic still be paying child support for an 18 year-old adult. Another lie, or is there a law I'm not aware of?

I know of MANY fathers who are divorced from their wives and have ended up being court ordered to pay child support, often times for children that are not even THIERS. I have seen MANY court orders (personally seen them, even helped to write the terms) which state that a parent will pay child support until the child is 21. Other times its worded such that the support will be paid until the child is 25 or has finished school (I've never seen one that says "successfully completed grade ___ or will be paid until they successfully complete a college program, a bachelor program ect). But 21, 25 or finished school I have seen plenty of! So Mr. McL... might have ended up in one of THOSE types of court orders.

[ThoughtElf]

Finally - a search update of sorts. Go to the sidebar video 'Seventh Day of Searching.'

CTV is now stating that Tori may not be found at all. :(
(http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090526/Tori_law_090526/20090526?hub=TorontoHome)

[antiquegirl]

Not sure it has been confirmed they gassed up ... maybe passing through the gas station lot to make a turn-around?

That is one possibility. Also, I'm not familiar with that particular gas station, but some have "pay at the pump" where you don't have to go to a cashier at all. Another possibility (and one that I've mentioned before) is that Tori could have been injected with a drug as soon as she got in the car and may have been unconscious. Someone mentioned a possible overdose from this and I'm not ruling that out either. JMO

[gogrannypop]

Not sure it has been confirmed they gassed up ... maybe passing through the gas station lot to make a turn-around?

Very good possibility.

[ThoughtElf]

Respectfully snipped.

LE has stated that the suspect and Tori were in the car. Const. Maitland used the singular for "suspects" and we don't know if that was a slip of the tongue or not. If anyone has that link, please?

(MD - in the blow-up of the close-up you sent me, I can even see TLM's thin-framed eyeglasses on the driver's face.)


"Maitland said the car was spotted at a Home Depot near Guelph the evening Tori was abducted, with the suspects and Tori in the car." (http://www.680news.com/news/more.jsp?content=20090523_093925_1588)

[CuriousJorge]

Originally Posted by S_A_S
I am getting VERY tired of the mud-slinging and jokes being made about Woodstock.

To read websleuths, is to read that the town is a bunch of trailer-park-boys styled losers, who all use Oxycotin, and various other snide comments ( creepy, stupid, inbred,..etc) that I have tried to ignore, and move on from.

Woodstock was known and still is, the heart of the farming community, as well as beng known as a "golfing town."

Many Dr`s, lawyers, Dentist, etc, live in the upper class neighbourhoods, that are found found all over the small city. Most of this small city compiles of nice middle class neighbourhoods, and a LARGE retiree community.

Is Dallas only full of rednecks ? is Toronto only full of gang-bangers ? Is BC only full of heroin addicts ?

Come on people, grow up.


My apologizes to you SAS or anyone else who may have been offended by critical comments. I recall reading posts, and responding to posts in regards to the neighbourhood in which TL lived in. My intention was not to offend anyone, but add a little humour to possible lighten the stress of this shocking and sorrowful case.

I have been trying to catch up to speed on here...phew, busy busy busy. I was on till the wee hours of the morning this morning and I posted my speculation as to what evidence they have to charge MR with murder? I'm assuming no one really knows yet, but I thought that maybe LE have MR's or TL's cell phone with pictures of the crime. Not a nice thought but that would be the perfect evidence. CASE CLOSED, throw away the cell key.

Has anyone a link to the one video of CLM in her driveway talking to a reporter(s)? I have searched high and low and to no avail cannot find it. She tells the reporters off near the end, something like "get off my property". There's also another one where the police escort her off of the property of the house she had been living in. Thanx for all your help WSers. You people are very computer sauve and unfortunately I'm not.

[antiquegirl]

"TM", as in Tori's mother? I don't follow your theory at all. What would TM's motive be in collaborating with TLM and MR in kidnapping her own daughter?

Not only that, but to arrange that kind of set-up would be very complicated.

LE has probably proven that the car belongs to MTR.
Why would TM be driving it?
Hasn't it already been determined that it was Terri who abducted Tori?
So, then what? Terri takes Tori, gives her to TM, who is driving MTR's car, and then TLM takes over and TM goes home?


It just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.

[another nosey mom]

Respectfully snipped.

LE has stated that the suspect and Tori were in the car. Const. Maitland used the singular for "suspects" and we don't know if that was a slip of the tongue or not. If anyone has that link, please?

(MD - in the blow-up of the close-up you sent me, I can even see TLM's thin-framed eyeglasses on the driver's face.)

AG that is the only thing I can see, a pair of glasses being worn by the driver. I don't see anyone else though

[antiquegirl]

Has anyone a link to the one video of CLM in her driveway talking to a reporter(s)? I have searched high and low and to no avail cannot find it. She tells the reporters off near the end, something like "get off my property". There's also another one where the police escort her off of the property of the house she had been living in. Thanx for all your help WSers. You people are very computer sauve and unfortunately I'm not.

Is this Carol you're talking about? If so, I haven't seen the video and would really like to. The only one I've seen is of her sitting on her porch with the dogs and a still picture with her hand to her eyes.

[antiquegirl]

"Maitland said the car was spotted at a Home Depot near Guelph the evening Tori was abducted, with the suspects and Tori in the car." (http://www.680news.com/news/more.jsp?content=20090523_093925_1588)

That's a different quote, PH. I think I'm remembering a video statement by Maitland and we discussed here her use of the singular.

[ThoughtElf]

Looking for both vids.

[canuckmom02]

quoted from the video mentioned above


...meanwhile the lawyer representing accused killer Michael Rafferty says his client is having a tough time behind bars...."it is a difficult thing when you're in a jail cell and have never been in jail before and are charged with a serious crime like this, it's very difficult, for anybody...

Excuse me while i :sick:

[SFB73]

can someone point me this picture, I am near there everyday, I will try to take a peak tomorrow if I know which street the "mailbox" is on.

Its not a mailbox, its a sign that says "Bakers Dozen - DRIVE THRU" you know, like an arrow sign pointing to the drive through lane at a fast food place...

Its a little rough looking, I think at one point in time it may have actually light up....

Tonight it was just there, lettering faded and not light up!

[CuriousJorge]

Just another thought. Maybe TS was unaware of anything bad happening to her from the time she walked away with TL until the evilness took hold of TL and MR. Who knows what TL told her right from the beginning. "your mom asked me to pick you up as she's busy", once they get her into the car they may have said we have to get gas first, then we're gonna take you to see puppies, then we'll take you home. Maybe they were kind? in the beginning so they wouldn't draw any attention.

I hope TL and MR rot in their cells. They both are equally responsible in lil Tori's fate. My heart hurts so bad for anyone who has lost a child. I don't even want to imagine how devastating this must be, even if somehow TM is related to fate of Tori. If that's the case, she must be going crazy with self-blame. I think it's natural for any parent going through this sort of lose to blame themselves with 'what if's'. So very sad.

[canadiansugarangel]

do you know if the gas statrion was self serve of full serve?

[antiquegirl]

"Maitland said the car was spotted at a Home Depot near Guelph the evening Tori was abducted, with the suspects and Tori in the car." (http://www.680news.com/news/more.jsp?content=20090523_093925_1588)

Found it:

"We have reason to believe that the suspect and the victim were in the vehicle."

http://www.canada.com/Police+seek+rear+seat+from+vehicle+Tori+Stafford+m urder+investigation/1627861/story.html

[canadiansugarangel]

can anyone point me in the directions as to where the closeup picture is of the car and the suspect

[antiquegirl]

do you know if the gas statrion was self serve of full serve?

Also, if it was self-serve, did any of the pumps have the "pay at the pump" with debit/credit card option?

(Again, we don't know for sure if gas was actually purchased. If so, the video would presumably include the suspect actually pumping gas if the pumps were in camera range. Can one of the locals say how the angle of the released pic relates to the location of the pumps?)

[sillybilly]

Not only that, but to arrange that kind of set-up would be very complicated.

LE has probably proven that the car belongs to MTR.
Why would TM be driving it?
Hasn't it already been determined that it was Terri who abducted Tori?
So, then what? Terri takes Tori, gives her to TM, who is driving MTR's car, and then TLM takes over and TM goes home?


It just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.

In a scenario of collaborration, it wouldn't necessarily involve anything more than a phone call, with no physical involvement whatsoever of the person who was arranging it.

This abduction happened so neatly, I still do NOT believe that TM and LW were the only 2 who knew Tori would be walking alone that day.

[SFB73]

Not sure it has been confirmed they gassed up ... maybe passing through the gas station lot to make a turn-around?

I cant tell which side of the car the fuel door is on, the way the vehicle is driving makes it look like it is pulling into get fuel from the pumps closest to Norwich Avenue.

However, if this was the case, there would be video of the suspect at the pump and that would end all speculation as to who was in the vehicle, this makes me think that they didnt even buy gas at that stop and could have just been using the station as a waiting spot.

[SFB73]

do you know if the gas statrion was self serve of full serve?

Self Serve with the options to pay at the pump or go into the little store area and pay.

[Niki]

I can't quote from the post to which I am responding because it is now in a locked thread. However, it was from the new member who will be going to Afghanistan this summer and with whose thoughts I am in complete agreement. A few days ago, I decided to come here occasionally for news but withdraw completely from the conversation, despite information I wanted to share. When I saw the post I just mentioned, I realized I too had to express what I have been feeling. I am both appalled and devastated by the readiness of so many to resort to violence as a solution to the horrors we are facing in this case. Torture has even been advocated as a tool to extract information from the accused. Far too many posts have embraced this theme for the implications of those ideas to be overlooked.

If we kill killers and torture torturers, do we rape the rapists, a crime equally heinous? If so, to whom is that job assigned?

Violence breeds violence, a principle those well known “bleeding hearts” and “leftist tree-huggers”, Gandhi and Martin Luther King gave their lives to promote.

Schools, at least in my province, no longer punish bullying by retaliation. The strap has been discarded in favour of more workable approaches to changing behaviour and protecting victims. If we want to protect our children, we have to give them specific guidelines which we rehearse with them often, but we also have to teach them by example to respect one of the best justice systems in the world; to speak out against injustice wherever they see it; to question always, but also to make sure all the facts are in before drawing conclusions; and to understand that it is never acceptable to violate any human being for any reason. The torturer dehumanizes both himself and the society that condones his actions. So does the advocate of vigilante “justice.”

This does not mean that we feel sorry for, excuse, or coddle the offenders. It means we don't become evil in our response to evil.

I know I should say IMO here, but the beliefs I hold so passionately are supported by a solid body of evidence which I will be happy to provide.

[SFB73]

Also, if it was self-serve, did any of the pumps have the "pay at the pump" with debit/credit card option?

(Again, we don't know for sure if gas was actually purchased. If so, the video would presumably include the suspect actually pumping gas if the pumps were in camera range. Can one of the locals say how the angle of the released pic relates to the location of the pumps?)

I dont really know how to accurately describe this cameras position, other than saying it would be a camera at the north end of the Ceiling area over the pumps that captured this image there are also cameras pointing to the pumps. When I buy gas there and pay inside, you actually can see the monitor with the various camera angles as well as your image when you are in the store.

If the vehicle drove anywhere near the pumps I am assuming its all on video,

[buddybuddy]

Why is MTR not talking....
looks like we have an answer
Rafferty’s lawyer Hal Mattson was asked in a telephone interview today why his client was not also co-operating with police to help find Tori’s body.

“At this particular time he is exercising his right to remain silent” and waiting for legal advice, Mattson said.

this just irks me!
where are Tori's rights! ? like her right to be returned to her family so that she can have a proper burial!

[ThoughtElf]

I can't quote from the post to which I am responding because it is now in a locked thread. However, it was from the new member who will be going to Afghanistan this summer and with whose thoughts I am in complete agreement. A few days ago, I decided to come here occasionally for news but withdraw completely from the conversation, despite information I wanted to share. When I saw the post I just mentioned, I realized I too had to express what I have been feeling. I am both appalled and devastated by the readiness of so many to resort to violence as a solution to the horrors we are facing in this case. Torture has even been advocated as a tool to extract information from the accused. Far too many posts have embraced this theme for the implications of those ideas to be overlooked.

If we kill killers and torture torturers, do we rape the rapists, a crime equally heinous? If so, to whom is that job assigned?

Violence breeds violence, a principle those well known “bleeding hearts” and “leftist tree-huggers”, Gandhi and Martin Luther King gave their lives to promote.

Schools, at least in my province, no longer punish bullying by retaliation. The strap has been discarded in favour of more workable approaches to changing behaviour and protecting victims. If we want to protect our children, we have to give them specific guidelines which we rehearse with them often, but we also have to teach them by example to respect one of the best justice systems in the world; to speak out against injustice wherever they see it; to question always, but also to make sure all the facts are in before drawing conclusions; and to understand that it is never acceptable to violate any human being for any reason. The torturer dehumanizes both himself and the society that condones his actions. So does the advocate of vigilante “justice.”

This does not mean that we feel sorry for, excuse, or coddle the offenders. It means we don't become evil in our response to evil.

I know I should say IMO here, but the beliefs I hold so passionately are supported by a solid body of evidence which I will be happy to provide.

BUBM.

Guilty as charged as that post was mine. It was written tongue-in-cheek and not as a genuine belief. Angst with perps and venting.

Sorry.

[gardenia]

hello... long time listener, first time caller (okay, you know what i mean) ... i have been trying to keep up with all of you amazing WS'ers for weeks now - i can't tell you how pleased and impressed i am to find this forum of decent, respectful & caring people!

i have been wondering about the dog connection for a while now so thought i'd finally get my question out there - are we to assume that TM was wanting to breed her dog, cosmo, with one of TLM's mother's dogs? if so... do we even know if this is possible (as in, has cosmo been neutered or not?)

i personally find this dog connection to be a weak story.

tia!

[taz_gem]

I cant tell which side of the car the fuel door is on, the way the vehicle is driving makes it look like it is pulling into get fuel from the pumps closest to Norwich Avenue.

However, if this was the case, there would be video of the suspect at the pump and that would end all speculation as to who was in the vehicle, this makes me think that they didnt even buy gas at that stop and could have just been using the station as a waiting spot.

I believe the gas tank is centrally located at the back of the vehicle....

[PenelopePetunia]

Why is MTR not talking....
looks like we have an answer


this just irks me!
where are Tori's rights! ? like her right to be returned to her family so that she can have a proper burial!

We still must abide by the law which presumes that MR is innocent until proven guilty.


When in court, he just may be quiet also.


"With respect to the critical facts of the case, the defendant does not have any burden of proof whatsoever. The defendant does not have to testify, call witnesses or present any other evidence, and if the defendant elects not to testify or present evidence, this decision cannot be used against them"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

[CuriousJorge]

quoted from the video mentioned above


...meanwhile the lawyer representing accused killer Michael Rafferty says his client is having a tough time behind bars...."it is a difficult thing when you're in a jail cell and have never been in jail before and are charged with a serious crime like this, it's very difficult, for anybody...

Excuse me while i :sick:

BOO HOO HOO MR. Wow what a goof he is. He didn't think his victim was having a tough time at his hands or TL's? Wow maybe someone should put him in lil Tori's shoes, then give him a choice; jail or what happened to his victim. He is such a sicko. Pay backs can be a bi*%#. Hope Bubba's waiting for MR.

Yes I know there's one of her standing in her driveway with a cig in her hand, talking to reporter. Then she says something like "now get the heck off my property". She's wearing the same pink t-shirt as the one of her on the front porch. She's a very liberated woman, you can't help but notice she needs to put a bra on. Not only is she sagging but her nippies are too lol. Should feel sorry for the woman as it sounds like she's been through the mill. Some people chose the wrong path unfortunately.

[lisser]

hello... long time listener, first time caller (okay, you know what i mean) ... i have been trying to keep up with all of you amazing WS'ers for weeks now - i can't tell you how pleased and impressed i am to find this forum of decent, respectful & caring people!

i have been wondering about the dog connection for a while now so thought i'd finally get my question out there - are we to assume that TM was wanting to breed her dog, cosmo, with one of TLM's mother's dogs? if so... do we even know if this is possible (as in, has cosmo been neutered or not?)

i personally find this dog connection to be a weak story.

tia!

I've wondered that too. Just_curious...could your vet connection get confirmation for us as to whether or not is Cosmo able to, ahem, produce?

[paintergrrl]

Ok, I posted weeks ago about this particular strange woman on the family FB wall. I suggested Dar M might be JG's mother. She was pro TM from the start, almost rabid in her defense of her. It was really strange, her comments and "tips". I checked Canada 411 and this Dar person lives in the same town as 4 Goris people listed.

so tonight she was on a wall being strange and after a few hours, I asked her if she was JG's mom. She had been tormenting folks on the wall for hours, I asked my question and she left the wall right away - without answering. So, JG's mother's name is Dar Murthie.

[buddybuddy]

We still must abide by the law which presumes that MR is innocent until proven guilty.


When in court, he just may be quiet also.


I guess we will just all have to wait and see, wont we.
but I am still irked that Tori has not been found.

[ThoughtElf]

Marc Klaas Speaks Up About Need to Change Amber Alert (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/26/9576211.html)

An outspoken U.S. child-safety advocate says the Amber Alert system needs dramatic changes.



Marc Klaas, whose 12-year-old daughter Polly was kidnapped from a 1993 California slumber party and killed, calls the international system “fatally flawed” and in need of review.



“It doesn’t help the kids that need it most,” Klaas told The Free Press.



------------
kudos to LFP if they contacted Marc. Couldn't get a better opinion on the topic than his.

[SFB73]

If COSMO is a purebred animal from a breeder within the Canadian Kennel Club and is to be used as a family pet rather than a show dog, many breeders have a contract that you sign indicating that the animal will be neutered around 6 months of age. Not sure how they enforce this contract, but I suspect the intention is that you do not begin using your dog to turn a quick profit without being members of the Canadian Kennel Club and a recognized breeder. A litter of 6 or 7 pups in the toy breeds could easily see puppies going for 1000 - 2000 bucks depending on the breed with papers, not a bad payday if you like dealing with newborn pups... potential of making some relatively easy money... keeping in mind legit breeders also have some hefty expenses such as vet bills, chipping the animals, medications, not to mention they have a legit business set up with Rev Canada and paying tax on the monies collected for each pup.

[cdnDAD]

the next few days are very important in the search, I am no Lawyer but I have a feeling that without a body, this lawyer for Mr may be able to push for a fast trial... if he can cast doubt that mr was involved at all he may walk... or not do life. ?Obviously not knowing what LE has in their back pocket is key.

I would have to think tho a good lawyer would be able to cast the doubt and shift towards TLM, afterall she is the one who is in the orig video. shes squealed, it could be presented to a judge, that TLM was completely responsible and MR was setup ( which I'm not completely convinced isnt true yet... I'll wait to see what evidence comes to light after trial starts.) Also I think that this would be tried in front of a judge alone. It boils down to reasonable doubt... so hopefully LE has dotted i's and crossed t's

[Reannan]

.... A few days ago, I decided to come here occasionally for news but withdraw completely from the conversation, despite information I wanted to share.
Violence breeds violence,....

Welcome to WS's Niki. We are made up of a group of people who HATE violence, yet are sometimes drawn towards the desire to see justice, and that is where the rub may cause a raw spot if you are a pacifist. Many of us have followed crimes as horrendous as anything the gates of Hell have ever embraced. For me personally, I think of the Jessica Lunsford case, and the way James Couey kidnapped, terrorized, raped, and BURIED ALIVE the little girl that used to play in her yard and dreamed of growing up and going to prom. I think of Shasta Groene and her brother Dylan and the pathetic excuse for a human being, Joseph Duncan who ripped them out of their home and tortured and terrorized them both, before forcing Shasta to watch the brutal murder of her little brother Dylan. Yea.....that makes me angry enough to torture someone. Instead, both of these monsters are sleeping in a safe jail cell tonight. They will have food tomorrow, they can take advantage of the privilages they may earn in jail. They are not now, nor will they ever suffer in this life, the way they caused their victims to suffer. When you get some spare time, you can say a prayer that I may find a bit more sympathy in my heart for these heartless perpetrators of evil. Right now......I despise them, and I despise those who have harmed little Tori. I don't have the power to "torture" James Couey, Joseph Duncan, or TLM or MR. If I had that kind of power, I don't think I would torture them, but I can guarantee you, the world would no longer need to fear them. I respect your opinions, and I am glad you feel free to express them. I hope you feel the same about mine. That is what we do here at WS's, but I bet we will have to take this duscussion to another forum. :)

[Flowercb]

That is one possibility. Also, I'm not familiar with that particular gas station, but some have "pay at the pump" where you don't have to go to a cashier at all. Another possibility (and one that I've mentioned before) is that Tori could have been injected with a drug as soon as she got in the car and may have been unconscious. Someone mentioned a possible overdose from this and I'm not ruling that out either. JMO

I agree that Tori was probably drugged as I doubt these two would have taken a chance of Tori realizing she wasn't going home and then screaming, etc. Poor little Tori, God Bless you little one.

[ella's mom]

quoted from the video mentioned above


...meanwhile the lawyer representing accused killer Michael Rafferty says his client is having a tough time behind bars...."it is a difficult thing when you're in a jail cell and have never been in jail before and are charged with a serious crime like this, it's very difficult, for anybody...

Excuse me while i :sick:

I thought I read earlier (may have been a rumor) that MR did have priors and also had a restraining order against him. Has anyone looked into that at all? In the states you can look up court records (they are public). Can you do that in Canada?

P.S. Love the Puke smiley!

[SFB73]

I thought all murder trials in Canada have to be tried in front of a judge and jury since the sentencing would exceed 5 years.

[ThoughtElf]

Welcome to WS's Niki. We are made up of a group of people who HATE violence, yet are sometimes drawn towards the desire to see justice, and that is where the rub may cause a raw spot if you are a pacifist. Many of us have followed crimes as horrendous as anything the gates of Hell have ever embraced. For me personally, I think of the Jessica Lunsford case, and the way James Couey kidnapped, terrorized, raped, and BURIED ALIVE the little girl that used to play in her yard and dreamed of growing up and going to prom. I think of Shasta Groene and her brother Dylan and the pathetic excuse for a human being, Joseph Duncan who ripped them out of their home and tortured and terrorized them both, before forcing Shasta to watch the brutal murder of her little brother Dylan. Yea.....that makes me angry enough to torture someone. Instead, both of these monsters are sleeping in a safe jail cell tonight. They will have food tomorrow, they can take advantage of the privilages they may earn in jail. They are not now, nor will they ever suffer in this life, the way they caused their victims to suffer. When you get some spare time, you can say a prayer that I may find a bit more sympathy in my heart for these heartless perpetrators of evil. Right now......I despise them, and I despise those who have harmed little Tori. I don't have the power to "torture" James Couey, Joseph Duncan, or TLM or MR. If I had that kind of power, I don't think I would torture them, but I can guarantee you, the world would no longer need to fear them. I respect your opinions, and I am glad you feel free to express them. I hope you feel the same about mine. That is what we do here at WS's, but I bet we will have to take this duscussion to another forum. :)

I wish I could write like that ^^^^.

TY .

[antiquegirl]

hello... long time listener, first time caller (okay, you know what i mean) ... i have been trying to keep up with all of you amazing WS'ers for weeks now - i can't tell you how pleased and impressed i am to find this forum of decent, respectful & caring people!

i have been wondering about the dog connection for a while now so thought i'd finally get my question out there - are we to assume that TM was wanting to breed her dog, cosmo, with one of TLM's mother's dogs? if so... do we even know if this is possible (as in, has cosmo been neutered or not?)

i personally find this dog connection to be a weak story.

tia!

IMNSHO, it's the most ridiculous story I've ever heard. Maybe there was a mention of breeding the dogs but if anyone believes that was the only connection between TM and the McC family, they need a reality check.

Let's see ... the two families live within a few blocks of each other. TM admits to an Oxy habit. TLM and MTR also have been rumoured to be users. Carol has cancer and a prescription for 125 OxyContin pills a month.

http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/570217

Mere coincidence? Methinks not.

TM claims that she has met TLM anywhere from 1 to 4 times (depending on when you ask her). She found both mother and daughter to be "weird". Yet an old neighbour at the Co-Op is quoted as saying that last year TM said she would give her couch to "my friend, Terri-Lynne".

http://www.canadaeast.com/front/article/673990

TM called Carol "shifty, twitchy, and weird" and yet still offered to help them move their furniture.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098

So, if there were only two meetings and they both concerned dog breeding, I will eat my sombrero.

JMO

P.S. Welcome, Gardenia. Yet another flower in our garden. :)

[PenelopePetunia]

the next few days are very important in the search, I am no Lawyer but I have a feeling that without a body, this lawyer for Mr may be able to push for a fast trial... if he can cast doubt that mr was involved at all he may walk... or not do life. ?Obviously not knowing what LE has in their back pocket is key.

I would have to think tho a good lawyer would be able to cast the doubt and shift towards TLM, afterall she is the one who is in the orig video. shes squealed, it could be presented to a judge, that TLM was completely responsible and MR was setup ( which I'm not completely convinced isnt true yet... I'll wait to see what evidence comes to light after trial starts.) Also I think that this would be tried in front of a judge alone. It boils down to reasonable doubt... so hopefully LE has dotted i's and crossed t's

I'm not conviced the latter isn't true either. I'm with you, I'll wait for the evidence, and hope the prosecutor has enough to prove his/her case.

[Reannan]

I wish I could write like that ^^^^.

TY .

Are you kidding me?? You are one of my favorite people on here now!!! I look for your posts! :blowkiss: You go girl!!!

[Paintr]

Ha, you think you've got it bad. Check out this house!
Thankfully I don't live next door but I do live in the neighbourhood & I've watched it get worse & worse over the years. They started with birdbaths & plastic swan & lamb planters but then they went nuts.

http://stylenorth.ca/blog/2008/06/crazy-neighbours/

Good Heavens!:eek::eek::eek: I am gobsmacked! Their poor neighbours!

[gardenia]

antiquegirl ~ yes, i have been "with you" on your recent posts & i too find TM's claims, in regards to her connection with TLM, to be ridiculously transparent. doesn't she realize that we have all been watching the tara show for some time now & aren't buyin' it!?

[Mazama]

P.S. Welcome, Gardenia. Yet another flower in our garden. :)

Yes, welcome!

:Welcome-12-june::Welcome-12-june:

[margaret_diane]

She's a very liberated woman, you can't help but notice she needs to put a bra on. Not only is she sagging but her nippies are too lol. Should feel sorry for the woman as it sounds like she's been through the mill. Some people chose the wrong path unfortunately.

Well --- she was a professional stripper -- so maybe she doesn't CARE if people see that she is sagging, or showing through her shirt... :laughitup:

[ChaChaCha]

Ha, you think you've got it bad. Check out this house!
Thankfully I don't live next door but I do live in the neighbourhood & I've watched it get worse & worse over the years. They started with birdbaths & plastic swan & lamb planters but then they went nuts.

http://stylenorth.ca/blog/2008/06/crazy-neighbours/

Hey! That's my house! And that's me - the tiny troll on the top of the pile!

Waving at neighbour!!!:blowkiss:

[siestalola]

I just watched Fridays pressers with TM, thanking everyone for their help etc. I found it very odd the way she referred to TLM and MR. She spoke their names as a friend would. ie Terri-lynn and Michael. I have been discussing this case all week with friends and relatives and I refer to them with their full names during discussion. IMO because she refers to them on a first name basis leaves me feeling that she knows BOTH of them quite well.

[antiquegirl]

Ha, you think you've got it bad. Check out this house!
Thankfully I don't live next door but I do live in the neighbourhood & I've watched it get worse & worse over the years. They started with birdbaths & plastic swan & lamb planters but then they went nuts.

http://stylenorth.ca/blog/2008/06/crazy-neighbours/

That's hilarious, but I'm glad I don't live next door. I do have a friend who lives in Leslieville; I must ask her if she's familiar with this house.

There's a house on my street where the owners like to decorate their front garden with a lot of plastic flowers, butterflies, and heaven knows what else and I thought that was bad enough until I saw this. Thanks for the laugh!

[Reannan]

Hey! That's my house! And that's me - the tiny troll on the top of the pile!

Waving at neighbour!!!:blowkiss:
ChaCha, I bet your wave to your negihbor would be the "6 digit salute" - one hand having with 5 fingers, and the other one, only waving with the middle finger!!! Of course, that is assuming your neighbors were "difficult" and not one of "us" here at WS's, huh??? :blowkiss:

[Flowercb]

IMNSHO, it's the most ridiculous story I've ever heard. Maybe there was a mention of breeding the dogs but if anyone believes that was the only connection between TM and the McC family, they need a reality check.

Let's see ... the two families live within a few blocks of each other. TM admits to an Oxy habit. TLM and MTR also have been rumoured to be users. Carol has cancer and a prescription for 125 OxyContin pills a month.

http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/570217

Mere coincidence? Methinks not.

TM claims that she has met TLM anywhere from 1 to 4 times (depending on when you ask her). She found both mother and daughter to be "weird". Yet an old neighbour at the Co-Op is quoted as saying that last year TM said she would give her couch to "my friend, Terri-Lynne".

http://www.canadaeast.com/front/article/673990

TM called Carol "shifty, twitchy, and weird" and yet still offered to help them move their furniture.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098

So, if there were only two meetings and they both concerned dog breeding, I will eat my sombrero.

JMO

P.S. Welcome, Gardenia. Yet another flower in our garden. :)


In one of the articles Carol says that her daughter is good with kids and has a babysitting job here in town. I'll bet whoever let her near their kids in the past are sweating profusely now. Unbelievable.:eek:

[Reannan]

That's hilarious, but I'm glad I don't live next door. I do have a friend who lives in Leslieville; I must ask her if she's familiar with this house.

There's a house on my street where the owners like to decorate their front garden with a lot of plastic flowers, butterflies, and heaven knows what else and I thought that was bad enough until I saw this. Thanks for the laugh!

In the South, we decorate our lawns with tires that are cut in half and painted white.....then we line the driveway with them. We also love those little windmill things called "whirlygigs" placed haphazardly among our flowers. Ahhhhhh, the subtle things in life, huh?? OK....back to the topic, and sorry for the brief interruption, but you can only deal with this stuff for so long, or you go nuts and want to hug EVERYONE!!!! :bang:

[ChaChaCha]

Ok, I posted weeks ago about this particular strange woman on the family FB wall. I suggested Dar M might be JG's mother. She was pro TM from the start, almost rabid in her defense of her. It was really strange, her comments and "tips". I checked Canada 411 and this Dar person lives in the same town as 4 Goris people listed.

so tonight she was on a wall being strange and after a few hours, I asked her if she was JG's mom. She had been tormenting folks on the wall for hours, I asked my question and she left the wall right away - without answering. So, JG's mother's name is Dar Murthie.

Oh, you are a bad thing aren't you! Guess if you don't ask, you'll never know! Pray tell, what kind of tips would Dar M have to pass along? Let me guess... the nanny did it???

[ChaChaCha]

ChaCha, I bet your wave to your negihbor would be the "6 digit salute" - one hand having with 5 fingers, and the other one, only waving with the middle finger!!! Of course, that is assuming your neighbors were "difficult" and not one of "us" here at WS's, huh??? :blowkiss:

Who? Me? Nah... Did you see that the property has video surveillance? Just for those with sticky fingers I guess...

[ThoughtElf]

Are you kidding me?? You are one of my favorite people on here now!!! I look for your posts! :blowkiss: You go girl!!!


TY. This is funny though, as I dropped a note on your wall last Friday about how much I enjoy your posts! :blowkiss:

That post really did explain very well how hard it is at times to rein in our snark towards the perps. I thought it was one of the most eloquent posts I've read yet about how we juggle discussion with emotion here.

It is hard at times to not wander off into idle fantasies of our own brand of justice, but deep down, we're all just hoping the case is strong and that Lady Justice isn't blind.

Only you said it much better. :)

[LadyG]

In the South, we decorate our lawns with tires that are cut in half and painted white.....then we line the driveway with them. We also love those little windmill things called "whirlygigs" placed haphazardly among our flowers. Ahhhhhh, the subtle things in life, huh?? OK....back to the topic, and sorry for the brief interruption, but you can only deal with this stuff for so long, or you go nuts and want to hug EVERYONE!!!! :bang:

omg are you from nova scotia, we so have the half tires painted white around here...lol :woohoo:

[krisycrnch]

HI everyone..... it's been a week since..well, u know. I just couldn't speak . Devastation, I think. Heartbroken that we have to share the world with such ghastly spirits .... but, I'm pulling myself out of my introversion and would like to know how my ws friends are doing ?

[siestalola]

HI everyone..... it's been a week since..well, u know. I just couldn't speak . Devastation, I think. Heartbroken that we have to share the world with such ghastly spirits .... but, I'm pulling myself out of my introversion and would like to know how my ws friends are doing ?

Welcome back! We're all still hanging in and glad that you've decided to join us once again.

[CuriousJorge]

Welcome to WS's Niki. We are made up of a group of people who HATE violence, yet are sometimes drawn towards the desire to see justice, and that is where the rub may cause a raw spot if you are a pacifist. Many of us have followed crimes as horrendous as anything the gates of Hell have ever embraced. For me personally, I think of the Jessica Lunsford case, and the way James Couey kidnapped, terrorized, raped, and BURIED ALIVE the little girl that used to play in her yard and dreamed of growing up and going to prom. I think of Shasta Groene and her brother Dylan and the pathetic excuse for a human being, Joseph Duncan who ripped them out of their home and tortured and terrorized them both, before forcing Shasta to watch the brutal murder of her little brother Dylan. Yea.....that makes me angry enough to torture someone. Instead, both of these monsters are sleeping in a safe jail cell tonight. They will have food tomorrow, they can take advantage of the privilages they may earn in jail. They are not now, nor will they ever suffer in this life, the way they caused their victims to suffer. When you get some spare time, you can say a prayer that I may find a bit more sympathy in my heart for these heartless perpetrators of evil. Right now......I despise them, and I despise those who have harmed little Tori. I don't have the power to "torture" James Couey, Joseph Duncan, or TLM or MR. If I had that kind of power, I don't think I would torture them, but I can guarantee you, the world would no longer need to fear them. I respect your opinions, and I am glad you feel free to express them. I hope you feel the same about mine. That is what we do here at WS's, but I bet we will have to take this duscussion to another forum. :)

:clap::clap::clap:Nicely written Reannan. Ditto from me too!
I'm positive everyone on WS are pretty classy people. Alot of you seem well educated and have brilliant ideas. At times I look for the humour some people post. Should I point a crooked finger?? Nah I couldn't do that to ChaChaCha, lol. As I said before, it lightens the atmosphere in here. Actually ChaChaCha you are hilarious. It's nice that people can except someone elses view point and sense of humour. You people do it with class. One of the reasons I came on WS was because you are so much more classy than some on...aaahhhhhmmmm FB. I'm not criticizing all of them but there's the odd one or two who are just ridiculous. Need I say more. I'll shut up now.

BTW did anyone happen to come across the video of TL's mom in the driveway?

[CuriousJorge]

I thought I read earlier (may have been a rumor) that MR did have priors and also had a restraining order against him. Has anyone looked into that at all? In the states you can look up court records (they are public). Can you do that in Canada?

P.S. Love the Puke smiley!

I know his ex gf said she had a son and didn't trust MR with him. Don't know about restraining order tho. Would a restraining order be classified as a criminal offense? Supposidly MR has no criminal record. At least that we're aware of. Time will tell.:waitasec:

[mareseatoats]

Why is MTR not talking....
looks like we have an answer


this just irks me!
where are Tori's rights! ? like her right to be returned to her family so that she can have a proper burial!

I offer my apologies in advance to those whom I know will be offended by this post. One more time, evidence of MR's excellent representation.

[ChaChaCha]

I just watched Fridays pressers with TM, thanking everyone for their help etc. I found it very odd the way she referred to TLM and MR. She spoke their names as a friend would. ie Terri-lynn and Michael. I have been discussing this case all week with friends and relatives and I refer to them with their full names during discussion. IMO because she refers to them on a first name basis leaves me feeling that she knows BOTH of them quite well.

I agree siestalola! There are always little nuggets of truth in what TM says.

I especially like the whole presser when the "mildly vindictive" and "drop her in a field" comments came out of TM's mouth. We should really go back and re-examine that presser. At that point TM was seemingly confident that Tori would be coming home. I think she knew at that point what the abduction was about. I support that comment by the later news that her lie detector test seemed to indicate that she was deceptive in that she had prior knowledge. You remember - the lie detector test she "walked out on" and "never got the results of".

Let's go back, if we can, and transcribe that presser... was this TM sending a message?

My next thought is TM's comment about TLM enjoying helicopter rides. I am sorry, but you don't make a snarky comment like that about someone unless you know them and you are p od at them - it was a dig - like what TM did initially with RS - an underhanded stab. The familiarity with their first names is also wierd...

I think that TLM did know TM - and since TM can come across as one "tough cookie" to quote the press, I feel that it was TLM's opportunity as a Crips wannabe to show TM that she, TLM, could be just as tough.

I truly think that it was what TM said it was - something mildly vindictive that got out of hand. Perhaps there never was an intent to sexually assault Tori and TLM just threw that out there because it is (1) believable (2) disgusting and (3) she wanted to get back at RM for his new chickie-poo.

Perhaps TLM just wanted to take Tori for a ride, keep her away from home for a while to show power over TM, and it got out of hand somehow?

I would check out the presser myself but I have had a horrible night and if I start now I will never get any sleep!

[sillybilly]

If I had that kind of power, I don't think I would torture them, but I can guarantee you, the world would no longer need to fear them. I respect your opinions, and I am glad you feel free to express them. I hope you feel the same about mine. That is what we do here at WS's, but I bet we will have to take this duscussion to another forum. :)

<snipped>

And I guess that's the difference between the "us" and the "them" ... we may be angry and want to hurt, but we do NOT.

[ThoughtElf]

So, what is the scoop with MR's lawyer? Everyone seems to think he is an extraordinary attorney. I haven't looked him up yet, but read that he usually doesn't do pro-bono. Does his record show that he pleads clients out often?

[ChaChaCha]

I offer my apologies in advance to those whom I know will be offended by this post. One more time, evidence of MR's excellent representation.

Okay...if I go to Hal's office tomorrow, are you going to be sitting at the reception desk or do you have a cubby in the corner?

[CuriousJorge]

Another sad story re: Mike Tyson's lil angel. JMO but I hope the family donates her organs.

Welcome back Krisycrnch! 'comforting virtual hug'

I'm sorry but I can't remember what station I was watching the 11pm news on as I flip thru many trying to take them all in regarding Tori's case. But one of the announcers said something about 'so and so would like to commend the LE for asking that the Amber Alert be considered for revision. Something to that affect.

[mareseatoats]

Okay...if I go to Hal's office tomorrow, are you going to be sitting at the reception desk or do you have a cubby in the corner?

lol...that's funny. Thanks for the smile.

[krisycrnch]

thanks very much SL & CJ for the welcome backs ...sigh. It's brutal . I couldn't / wouldn't be able to function at all if it was my child ! Reading back on this thread, someone mentioned a video ??? Is this true or ...

[CuriousJorge]

Possibly you are reffering to the servalience video from the Esso Station? Does anyone have that link handy?

I'm still betting that there are pics on TL or MR's cell phone of the crime and that's how LE claims they have sufficient evidence.

[CuriousJorge]

lol...that's funny. Thanks for the smile.

LOL! You WSers are crazy hilarious ROFL! Actually I bet she'll be sitting on Hal's lap, doing a little sweet talking to see if Hal will help to put MR away for life. JK:woohoo::woohoo::behindbar:behindbar:takeabow::s aythat:

[ChaChaCha]

LOL! You WSers are crazy hilarious ROFL! Actually I bet she'll be sitting on Hal's lap, doing a little sweet talking to see if Hal will help to put MR away for life. JK:woohoo::woohoo::behindbar:behindbar:takeabow::s aythat:

Um, no.... have you SEEN Hal???

(just jokin, no insult intended)

[CuriousJorge]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/26/9577251.html

4th paragraph below 'credit' ad. Gas station owner has car of interest on tape from the day, possibly minutes after she was abducted.

[CuriousJorge]

Um, no.... have you SEEN Hal???

(just jokin, no insult intended)

Aaahhhh come on ChaChaCha...you can fake it til we make it can't you? lol

He's not all that bad looking, lotsa dough :chicken::bananapowerslide:
RAH, RAH, RAH, CHA CHA CHA, SHE'S OUR LADY, YES SHE IS, IF SHE CAN'T DO IT NOBODY CAN.

Sorry off topic: Just kinda watching J&K and their screaming 8 opinions on LK. She's such a control freak, no wonder J's fed up.

[Salem]

Possibly you are reffering to the servalience video from the Esso Station? Does anyone have that link handy?

I'm still betting that there are pics on TL or MR's cell phone of the crime and that's how LE claims they have sufficient evidence.

Well you could be right. Here in the states, LE has to have MORE than a confession. Anyone can confess. LE has to be able to independently verify a confession - meaning they have to have some evidence that corroborates the person's story. Photos would do that. Also the car if the car was mentioned in the confession and especially if LE can find forensic evidence in the car.

Salem

[ChaChaCha]

Aaahhhh come on ChaChaCha...you can fake it til we make it can't you? lol

He's not all that bad looking, lotsa dough :chicken::bananapowerslide:
RAH, RAH, RAH, CHA CHA CHA, SHE'S OUR LADY, YES SHE IS, IF SHE CAN'T DO IT NOBODY CAN.

Sorry off topic: Just kinda watching J&K and their screaming 8 opinions on LK. She's such a control freak, no wonder J's fed up.

Now that's just baaaaaaad!

I have seen him in court several times and downtown when I worked there all the time - usually when he was hiking it up to the courthouse or at the one decent restaurant around there at lunchtime. He's very low-key, not dramatic, would often stop to speak to the press outside the courthouse which up until recently was also the Land Registry Office.

But you will have to find yerself another gal... this one is not game!

[ThoughtElf]

ChaChaCha?

Google is not being kind tonight. I can find umpteen links to news articles with Hal, but I can't find a link to his law firm so I can put it on the Facts Thread. Do you happen to know the firm/partnership name?

(No big deal if not, I can go grab the old fashioned paper yellow pages.)

[wishingtorihome]

Originally Posted by S_A_S
I am getting VERY tired of the mud-slinging and jokes being made about Woodstock.


Has anyone a link to the one video of CLM in her driveway talking to a reporter(s)? I have searched high and low and to no avail cannot find it. She tells the reporters off near the end, something like "get off my property". There's also another one where the police escort her off of the property of the house she had been living in. Thanx for all your help WSers. You people are very computer sauve and unfortunately I'm not.

------------------------------------------------------------

This site has the video with a tiny snippet of Carol footage - but not the part where she says to get off her property.
The story has a headline re: Amateur Sleuths

http://video.lfpress.ca/video/_/_/5828787001/_/23978134001

[CuriousJorge]

Darn!!! There goes that idea :( lol You don't have to answer, just wondering if you're from London or Woodstock ChaChaCha seeing as you've seen him in person.

Well I'm going to check out the astrology thread and rumours, then off to bed.
My lil guy has 5 pet rats and one of them has a cancerous tumor on her neck, about the size of a bigger gum ball. He asked me if I thought Tori liked rats. He heard she liked dogs, so just wondering if she liked rats. When I told him, according to what TM says, TS likes all kinds of animals. He then said good, cuz when Anna dies and goes to heaven, TS could have Anna to play with. Out of the mouths of babes. I almost lost it. I told him that when Anna is gone, we'll watch for a special sign from Tori. The beauty of children is their innocents.

[girl_next_door]

wow, so not much new to report in terms of this whole search/car seat thingy....
What are everyones thoughts on how MTR will be acting in court Thursday..anyone think we will see another sob fest?

yes, especially considering he's actually on suicide watch now! TLM I imagine will be stoic, unless her lawyer is giving her some tips. *rolls eyes* :sick:

[CuriousJorge]

------------------------------------------------------------

This site has the video with a tiny snippet of Carol footage - but not the part where she says to get off her property.
The story has a headline re: Amateur Sleuths

http://video.lfpress.ca/video/_/_/5828787001/_/23978134001

That's not the one, but thanks for searching. I think I'll check YouTube again. I believe it was a day or two, possibly three after the arrest. Could it be that maybe it wasn't put on here at all? I say her on the news on TV so hard to say. If I find it I will post it.

[Niki]

[QUOTE=Reannan;3795256]Welcome to WS's Niki. We are made up of a group of people who HATE violence, yet are sometimes drawn towards the desire to see justice, and that is where the rub may cause a raw spot if you are a pacifist.

I wrote two long responses, one a private post and one this way but as soon as I hit "submit reply", they disappeared and I got a message that I am not logged in, even though I am and was. It may happen again, so I'll keep this very short. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Unfortunately,It was very apparent that you didn't understand what I was saying and you also seemed to have made some very erroneous assumptions about me, but it really doesn't matter. Not a criticism.

[ChaChaCha]

ChaChaCha?

Google is not being kind tonight. I can find umpteen links to news articles with Hal, but I can't find a link to his law firm so I can put it on the Facts Thread. Do you happen to know the firm/partnership name?

(No big deal if not, I can go grab the old fashioned paper yellow pages.)

I don't know that he has a website... likely word of mouth is enough for him... I think he operates just under his own name...

But check this out! Hot off the press - NB "still blue" and Brennan Smart's comments at the end of the article...

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/26/9577246.html

[sillybilly]

Do you happen to know the firm/partnership name?

(No big deal if not, I can go grab the old fashioned paper yellow pages.)

<snipped>



Oops, wrong addy. Law Society of Upper Canada shows him as:

Harald A. Mattson
57 Roy St
Kitchener Ontario
N2H 4B4

Phone 519 742 0975
Fax 519 571 1805

[ThoughtElf]

TY both.

Yeah, I read that article a bit earlier. That last line is worthy of a post:
“We just want the truth to come out,” Jon Cundy said. “I anyone has any sort of (strange) feeling (about the case), there’s a lot of people having that feeling.”

My question is, "IS there anyone who does NOT have a strange feeling about the case?"

[ThoughtElf]

Thanks SillyBilly.

That got me to their offices, but still no web site:
Law Offices of Paul L. Seitz, Harald Mattson, and Clarke L. Melville
820-50 Queen St N
Kitchener, ON, N2H 6P4
519-579-8594

[prism]

Just a comment for the people who are online and following this thread right now.
I'm having a real hard time keeping abreast of all the twists and turns in this case, and I only work 8 hrs a day. Some of you have been consistently on this forum ALL DAY!
I say, give yourselves a break. It's an easy thing to get over involved especially when a child is the victim. We all want to get this thing solved NOW! ;)
It just won't happen. Be good to yourself, so you can be clear headed when the time comes! MOO :)

[sillybilly]

... That got me to their offices, but still no web site:

Sorry Spud ... I changed my previous post but not before you'd already steamed ahead of me.

I gave you the wrong addy. Law Society of Upper Canada shows him as:

Harald A. Mattson
57 Roy St
Kitchener Ontario
N2H 4B4

Phone 519 742 0975
Fax 519 571 1805

and ... still no website. (Could be low-key and working out of his home.)

[ThoughtElf]

I did find the law offices, and the web site of one partner, but not Mattson's. I think ChaChaCha is right in that he is so high-profile up here that he doesn't necessarily need web advertising.

[victorian]

Dragging over from the last thread:
Originally Posted by victorian
I really have to jump in here. Maybe #1 and #2 are tabu in bigger cities, but certainly not unusual circumstances.
I find it unfair to judge the parents or school for what I've always seen as common practice. Including my own kids!


Quote: whodunnit
Just because these 'screw ups' are common practices doesn't mean they should ever happen, whether in a large urban city like Toronto, or a sleepy (ahem, oxy-induced) little town like Woodstock, which iI always thought was a pretty creepy place anyways.

In other words, parents and other guardians (e.g. public schools) of 8 year olds, be mindful of the Criminal Code provisions relating to child abandonment, which apply to kids under the age of 10 years old:

Don't let these kids out of an adult's watchful eyes. It's a simple rule, and in fact, it's enshrined in our law.

If there's any lesson to be learned from the case of Tori Stafford, let this be it.
------------------------------------
Sorry I have to respond as I'm at a loss here. Are you referring to Canadian law or American? Even within that there are provincial and state laws as well.

Are you saying that no child under the age of ten should ever be out of eye shot?

[chicoliving]

Stop the personal notes and keep to discussion of the case.

[ThoughtElf]

TY Chico.

[ThoughtElf]

Amber Alert creator worried about 'fatal flaw' in system (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580996-sun.html)


The Amber Alert system is "fatally flawed" and in dire need of changes, warns the American child-safety advocate who helped create the original program.
Marc Klaas is particularly critical of the rule that apparently stopped Woodstock police from invoking an Amber Alert after Victoria (Tori) Stafford's April 8 disappearance -- the need for a description of a suspect vehicle.

[whodunnit]

<snipped>

And I guess that's the difference between the "us" and the "them" ... we may be angry and want to hurt, but we do NOT.

But really, the difference between 'us' and 'them' is that we were somehow blessed with healthy minds and souls, while in most cases, they, for no fault of their own, were not.

The case of Tori Stafford is littered with people who have suffered from the most tragic circumstances. TLM, abandoned as an infant, adopted by an emotionally disturbed woman, sexually molested before she was 4, and that's just the beginning. She is, my friends, a product of our enlightened society, be thankful for the blessings you have been bestowed with, before you cast aspersions on those who suffer such damnation.

What of TLM's mom Carol, it's so easy to poke fun at her. At first, the only public condemnation of her was that she was a 'stripper', which as far as I know is a stage performer who happens to perform without clothes on. However, the tragedy of her life becomes apparent as we learn more. Alcoholism, emotional instability, terminal cancer, possible drug addiction, poverty, and now homelessness, camping out on her neighbour"s porch following her eviction. Another product of our society, left abandoned at the roadside like garbage from a spring clean up.

I feel compassion for these people, and not just the Tori's of this world.
It's so easy for all of us to want to bundle up and protect an innocent and outwardly beautiful little 8 year old girl.
I challenge you to do the same for the other tragic characters in all of this who have been so vehemently convicted before trial, and so haughtily condemned without due consideration of their emotional and mental deficiencies.

[ThoughtElf]

OPP carry out 're-check' (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580991-sun.html)


One small group of Perth County OPP officers searched the wooded area south of Fergus, methodically looking through the brush and undergrowth in a thicket beside Guelph Road. With the assistance of a cadaver dog, the three officers thoroughly covered the area using an open grid, searching for physical clues among the maple and hickory trees while Riggs, a Labrador retriever, hunted for a scent.

"We read off him and use our owns eyes as well," said Const. Bob McCutchen, the dog's handler. "He digs. An aggressive indicator is what it's called."
The three officers were doing a "re-check" -- searching a rural area that had already been examined in past days -- but the OPP is being meticulous in its search for the eight-year-old's body. Originally, Terri-Lynne McClintic, the 18-year-old woman charged with abduction and being an accessory to Tori's murder, was assisting officers in the search until the May 24 expiry of the judicial order.

[ThoughtElf]

From the article posted above:

"Anything north of Guelph is of interest to us," Huntley said."

I wonder if they have any sightings or tips or cell records that lead them to continue to look North of Guelph in addition to TLM's description of areas to search? Is this a positive indicator that the re-check of the area is based on new information?

[ThoughtElf]

Arraignment Might Be Adjourned for Two Weeks (http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/640976)

Rafferty's girlfriend, Terri-Lynne McClintic, 18, is charged with abduction and being an accessory.

The two are scheduled to appear in Woodstock court tomorrow.

Mattson, who will represent Rafferty, said the case will likely be adjourned for two weeks so he and Brennan Smart, another lawyer, can review disclosure.

Mattson said he spent about an hour with Rafferty last week soon after he was arrested. He would not comment on Rafferty's demeanour or what they spoke about in their meeting.

[Native Pride]

I just watched Fridays pressers with TM, thanking everyone for their help etc. I found it very odd the way she referred to TLM and MR. She spoke their names as a friend would. ie Terri-lynn and Michael. I have been discussing this case all week with friends and relatives and I refer to them with their full names during discussion. IMO because she refers to them on a first name basis leaves me feeling that she knows BOTH of them quite well.



personally since I first read this article .....http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/637413

'After he moved to Woodstock, he often spent evenings in Good Time Charlies, a popular bar on the main street. "

my gut says yes TM and her boyfriend JG Must now him by face or conversation as I believe she stated she had danced and had drinks at this same bar ?? can't find the pressure or article now but i'm sure this was the name of the place ......

[Paintr]

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1584963



A lawyer for the man charged with killing Victoria (Tori) Stafford yesterday slammed Oxford Community Police Chief Ron Fraser for describing the case against his client as "strong" in an interview with Sun Media.

Brennan Smart , one of Michael Thomas Rafferty's lawyers, said it's not for Fraser to decide.

[Paintr]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1585770

There will be no changes to the public school board's dismissal policies following a review held earlier this week.

The Thames Valley District School Board had been under some pressure since May 20 to review and/or alter its dismissal policies following the abduction of Victoria "Tori" Stafford after school had ended on April 8. Stafford was a student at Oliver Stephens Public School.

[Paintr]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/27/9584131-sun.html



Holly Jones' mom feels for family




She knows of what she speaks, having had her daughter abducted and murdered, and it's because of that horror that she suffers now for the family of missing Tori Stafford, too.

May 12, 2003, at 6 p.m. was when 11-year-old Holly didn't come home. It was six years ago but it feels like yesterday for Maria, who'll be attending Friday's seventh annual Canadian Crime Victim Foundation Gala (CCVF) and fundraiser at the Riviera Parque in Vaughan.

[mareseatoats]

I don't know that he has a website... likely word of mouth is enough for him... I think he operates just under his own name...

But check this out! Hot off the press - NB "still blue" and Brennan Smart's comments at the end of the article...

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/26/9577246.html

Exactly!...some straaaaaaaaaaange feelings about this one! Thanks for the laugh last nite CHACHACHA...I was still giggling this morning.

[nonfictionrocks]

This is my first time post – Wow what a find for a true crime aficionado!!! I live a couple of hours away so I am somewhat familiar with “local news”. I came across the Webslueths.com site when something was just not sitting right with me; something about Woodstock, Ontario (no offence to S_A_S) and something about motorcycle cycle gangs. I Googled all of these keywords and the WS site jumped out at me. It was a posting, I believe in Thread #8, it mentioned that JG and his possible connections to the Bandidos motorcycle gang and there was a whisper of him being the “police informant” (please correct me if I am wrong). I read all of the Threads from the beginning and have continued to “lurk” ever since, daily and sometimes hourly. But something was still bothering me after catching up beginning with Thread #1 and staying on top of developments. I was still not satisfied that this lead had ever been completely exhausted so I went again to Google and I found this article from the LFP. http://www.lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=130433&s=massacre
If it has been posted and spoken about already, I apologize but when the “nefarious” word came out in today’s posts, I can only speculate as to the glaring coincidences that jumped out from this article for me!! The first being the date of the massacre (April 8) and the location of where the bodies were found (Stafford Line) - is this a stretch?!! Are TLM and MR that devious (while under the influence of drugs) and did they (or she) have visions of being “notorious” by eternally tying themselves to this heinous slaughter? Does anybody know if LE has checked out this area (they are running around anyways why not include this site)? Presently, with the court case being high profile, would these two be so gutsy as to visit this site once to place poor Tori here and maybe twice (albeit doubtfully – MR comes across as chickens#&t) to move her someplace else. Forgive me if I am “flogging a dead horse” and continuing to pursue the JG angle; her family is certainly paying the ultimate price for mistakes they may have made but I could not “sit” any further with this discovery.

[Niki]

How does a series of catty remarks about an unfortunate woman on her own porch, dying of intestinal cancer, help Tori? I'm outta here.

[ChaChaCha]

This is my first time post – Wow what a find for a true crime aficionado!!! I live a couple of hours away so I am somewhat familiar with “local news”. I came across the Webslueths.com site when something was just not sitting right with me; something about Woodstock, Ontario (no offence to S_A_S) and something about motorcycle cycle gangs. I Googled all of these keywords and the WS site jumped out at me. It was a posting, I believe in Thread #8, it mentioned that JG and his possible connections to the Bandidos motorcycle gang and there was a whisper of him being the “police informant” (please correct me if I am wrong). I read all of the Threads from the beginning and have continued to “lurk” ever since, daily and sometimes hourly. But something was still bothering me after catching up beginning with Thread #1 and staying on top of developments. I was still not satisfied that this lead had ever been completely exhausted so I went again to Google and I found this article from the LFP. http://www.lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=130433&s=massacre
If it has been posted and spoken about already, I apologize but when the “nefarious” word came out in today’s posts, I can only speculate as to the glaring coincidences that jumped out from this article for me!! The first being the date of the massacre (April 8) and the location of where the bodies were found (Stafford Line) - is this a stretch?!! Are TLM and MR that devious (while under the influence of drugs) and did they (or she) have visions of being “notorious” by eternally tying themselves to this heinous slaughter? Does anybody know if LE has checked out this area (they are running around anyways why not include this site)? Presently, with the court case being high profile, would these two be so gutsy as to visit this site once to place poor Tori here and maybe twice (albeit doubtfully – MR comes across as chickens#&t) to move her someplace else. Forgive me if I am “flogging a dead horse” and continuing to pursue the JG angle; her family is certainly paying the ultimate price for mistakes they may have made but I could not “sit” any further with this discovery.

Hi and Welcome! That was my pet theory for quite a while - I hate to part with it... it has occured to me that the K property would be ideal to hide a body.... I am not sure that K's ex-wife owns it any more, or that the place is habitable or had perhaps been sold, but yes... except that I doubt those two have the depth to be able to carry out such an irony. Still, you never know, and it may come full circle.

By the way, it was not JG that was suspected to be the informant, but a person with the initials MH that is possibly related to TM.

[BunnyCatO'theNorth]

But really, the difference between 'us' and 'them' is that we were somehow blessed with healthy minds and souls, while in most cases, they, for no fault of their own, were not.

The case of Tori Stafford is littered with people who have suffered from the most tragic circumstances. TLM, [respectfully snipped] ....TLM's mom Carol, I challenge you to do the same for the other tragic characters in all of this who have been so vehemently convicted before trial
WD, it is a helpful reminder to us to be compassionate for all those who have suffered and thankful for our own health.

[paintergrrl]

Oh, you are a bad thing aren't you! Guess if you don't ask, you'll never know! Pray tell, what kind of tips would Dar M have to pass along? Let me guess... the nanny did it???

No tips but boy oh boy, she is a strange bird!

The latest is that she claims to be working for a lawyer and hence is camped out on the FB walls, gathering evidence. I do think she was lurking on the boards to assess public opinion in the this case. Now, I ask, why would she feel the need to do that?

This case has so many "characters" it could be a movie of the week, except no one would believe the melodrama.

Another poster mentioned the dog story as a flimsy excuse for the connection between TLM and TM. I'm much more inclined to believe it was a drug connection.

[Paintr]

The police who now believe Tori was murdered, and are searching fruitlessly for her body with the help of McClintic. They did however manage to recover the missing backseat to the car suspected to have been used in Tori’s abduction



http://www.eontarionow.com/provincial/2009/05/27/victoria-tori-stafford-questions-still-remain/


Sounds as if this article is claiming one of the back seats found turned out to be the one LE was searching for.

[SFB73]

Well --- she was a professional stripper -- so maybe she doesn't CARE if people see that she is sagging, or showing through her shirt... :laughitup:

If she was a professional, I sure as heck never want to see an amateur! Seriously though, just another one of the cast of characters who has been left behind by society and an obvious victim of a hard lifestyle. I always have said poverty is a generational thing, if you are unfortunate enough to be born into it, its a tough climb to get out of the cycle. Some do, some dont. TLM was born into a situation that was never good from the start. That being said, it is also no excuse for the crime she has allegedly committed.

[gardenia]

i think a lot of us have a hard time feeling any sympathy for some of these "characters" (such as TLM's mom) because we have given our sympathy to the innocent victims in this.

i see that a lot of these people have made poor choices in their lives & that is one thing - but when it leads to such a tragic outcome for an innocent child it is hard to be non-judgmental towards them!

jmo

[Paintr]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/05/27/victoria-stafford.html

Although police have not been successful yet, Const. Laurie Ann Matiland of the Oxford Community Police said the search will continue until the remains are found.

"[Police investigators] continue to receive tips and leads and they investigate every single one and they follow the evidence wherever it takes them. And the investigation is still going strong — and they're going to locate Victoria Stafford. The investigation is full throttle," she said.

[Paintr]

http://www.canada.com/news/Accused+appear+court+girl+kidnap+murder/1634987/story.html

The two accused — Terri-Lynne McClintic, 18, and Michael Rafferty, 28, — are slated to appear by videolink in a Woodstock Ont., courtroom at 9 a.m. The couple was arrested May 20 and remain in custody.

[barbara40]

If COSMO is a purebred animal from a breeder within the Canadian Kennel Club and is to be used as a family pet rather than a show dog, many breeders have a contract that you sign indicating that the animal will be neutered around 6 months of age. Not sure how they enforce this contract, but I suspect the intention is that you do not begin using your dog to turn a quick profit without being members of the Canadian Kennel Club and a recognized breeder. A litter of 6 or 7 pups in the toy breeds could easily see puppies going for 1000 - 2000 bucks depending on the breed with papers, not a bad payday if you like dealing with newborn pups... potential of making some relatively easy money... keeping in mind legit breeders also have some hefty expenses such as vet bills, chipping the animals, medications, not to mention they have a legit business set up with Rev Canada and paying tax on the monies collected for each pup.

My neighbour bred his golden retriever and sold the puppies for $400.He said that the puppies were purebred without papers.
I don't know where Carol and Tara bought their dogs but they may believe that they are actually purebred even if they aren't. Breeding might seem like a fast way to make some money.

[Flowercb]

If she was a professional, I sure as heck never want to see an amateur! Seriously though, just another one of the cast of characters who has been left behind by society and an obvious victim of a hard lifestyle. I always have said poverty is a generational thing, if you are unfortunate enough to be born into it, its a tough climb to get out of the cycle. Some do, some dont. TLM was born into a situation that was never good from the start. That being said, it is also no excuse for the crime she has allegedly committed.

That is exactly what we have to keep in mind--there is no excuse for this. Furthermore, If it is true that she was molested at four years old and has suffered for this all her life, you would think she would not want another child to feel the same pain. She didn't want help, she wanted revenge.:furious:

[gardenia]

i don't know whether TM's dog is a purebred or not, or registered with CKC - i actually would HIGHLY doubt this, i mean, you can get a puppy off kijiji with no papers, no contract, etc.

my question regarding the 'dog connection' is that, first off, i don't believe that there is much of a connection & TM "claims" she was acquainted with TLM & her mother "because of" the dogs & the potential breeding they may do. i wondered if cosmo had been neutered, which would put the breeding "claim" to rest.

[LilyMacBloom]

I know his ex gf said she had a son and didn't trust MR with him. Don't know about restraining order tho. Would a restraining order be classified as a criminal offense? Supposidly MR has no criminal record. At least that we're aware of. Time will tell.:waitasec:


I know of someone who works with MR's mother. She states that the mother missed work to attend court but she thought it was drug related. She indicated though that MR was in and out of trouble

[Turbododger]

OPP carry out 're-check':

Investigators are still searching for the grey cloth-covered rear seat from the 2003 Honda Civic that police believe was involved in the eight-year-old's April 8 abduction. While a few abandoned rear seats have been found during recent days, including one in the Kitchener area, police have indicated they do not belong to the suspect vehicle.


"The key is finding a location that's similar (to McClintic's description) and looking from there."
"Anything north of Guelph is of interest to us," Huntley said.


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580991-sun.html

[Turbododger]

This Civic, which has black spray-paint over the hood, roof and trunk of the car, was spotted in the parking lot of a Guelph Home Depot on the day Tori was abducted.

This info is new, and sounds pretty specific, IMO. It does not seem to line up with the pictures that have been released, however. Any thoughts? Reporting error?

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580991-sun.html

[Turbododger]

I know of someone who works with MR's mother. She states that the mother missed work to attend court but she thought it was drug related. She indicated though that MR was in and out of trouble

I want to know if his mother is going to do the right thing and convince her son to tell LE where Tori is resting????.

[barbara40]

I want to know if his mother is going to do the right thing and convince her son to tell LE where Tori is resting????.

If MR is claiming innocence then his mother would have no reason to have that conversation with him.She will likely want to believe her son.

[scotslass]

I know of someone who works with MR's mother. She states that the mother missed work to attend court but she thought it was drug related. She indicated though that MR was in and out of trouble

The mothers boyfriend DR said in an article that this was out of character for MR but just before(or after going on my recollection here and have read so much) he stated he left the family home as he felt MR took advantage of his mothers generosity. He lived with them for a year and recently moved out.

Leads me to believe things weren't so rosy at home, and the break up had a lot to do with MR.

[Turbododger]

The mothers boyfriend DR said in an article that this was out of character for MR but just before(or after going on my recollection here and have read so much) he stated he left the family home as he felt MR took advantage of his mothers generosity. He lived with them for a year and recently moved out.

Leads me to believe things weren't so rosy at home, and the break up had a lot to do with MR.

I believe there was a domestic dispute between MR and his mother's boyfriend, and LE was called? I think it was an LFP article, and they misquoted a name in it, so is there any other verification of this?

[scotslass]

If MR is claiming innocence then his mother would have no reason to have that conversation with him.She will likely want to believe her son.

I agree that she will want to believe him. The comments from DR help me lean this way. Sounds like mom has had to take his side before(as i feel moms should) and I'm also sure he knows how to manipulate that. I feel for her if the allegations are true there is no way she can take his side kwim. It will heartbreaking as well as life shattering.

[scotslass]

I believe there was a domestic dispute between MR and his mother's boyfriend, and LE was called? I think it was an LFP article, and they misquoted a name in it, so is there any other verification of this?


I got the boyfriends name DR from CTV. Toward the end of this article. No mention of domestic dispute in this one though.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521?hub=CalgaryHome

[CuriousJorge]

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/canada/article/234475

He's been there from day one and probably knows TM pretty well. Better then most of us. I certainly don't question his doubts.

[antiquegirl]

This Civic, which has black spray-paint over the hood, roof and trunk of the car, was spotted in the parking lot of a Guelph Home Depot on the day Tori was abducted.

This info is new, and sounds pretty specific, IMO. It does not seem to line up with the pictures that have been released, however. Any thoughts? Reporting error?

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580991-sun.html

Good morning, Turbo. Which part of this quote do you think is new? From the pictures we've seen, it's obvious that the car was spray-painted in the areas mentioned, but that the front bumper was either missed (ran out of paint?) or has worn off with time and elements. Respectfully, I don't see anything here that I haven't seen or read before.

[antiquegirl]

personally since I first read this article .....http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/637413

'After he moved to Woodstock, he often spent evenings in Good Time Charlies, a popular bar on the main street. "

my gut says yes TM and her boyfriend JG Must now him by face or conversation as I believe she stated she had danced and had drinks at this same bar ?? can't find the pressure or article now but i'm sure this was the name of the place ......

Yes, TM and JG often frequented Good Time Charlie's bar. She was seen and photographed there about two weeks after Tori's abduction and then again a week or so later. TM has admitted to being there the second time having "a drink" with her brother, JJ, to commemorate the anniversary of her other brother Scott's passing.

(I have communicated with two eye-witnesses and the photos were passed on to a Toronto Star reporter, who deemed the pics too grainy and possibly libelous to print. They were taken with a cell phone and the first time, at least, bouncers at the bar were surrounding TM to protect her from the curious crowd.)

However, I think that there is more damning evidence to suggest a connection between TM/JG and TLM/MTR than merely frequenting the same bar. JMO

[Nosey Parker]

I live less than an hour from Woodstock and Guelph/Fergus.

deja vu Bernardo/Homolka? Makes me sick.

After spending so much time concentrating on Caylee's case, I had forgotten how hard it is to sleuth Canadian cases, given our tight lipped police and prosecutors.

In defence of Canadian LE, we have to remember that the police forces in our farming towns spend 95% of their time futilely investigting B&E's. Their PR skills are somewhat rusty, it's true, but they are dogged in their search for answers. The CSI affect has not penetrated the Ontario rural areas, although the forensic support is available once they have the evidence to test. The OPP is no longer just the hicky highway traffic enforcer either, and has some very well trained investigators.
Canadian judges and juries are rarely the bleeding heart type and, although we don't have the death penalty, we do have the Dangerous Offender Act.

It's so disappointing that they haven't located little Tori yet, but I have a feeling it will happen soon. I think they have caught the perpetrators, and justice will be served, but I don't know that we will hear much of circumstances and motive until trial.

[scotslass]

In regards to the woman who is rumored to have a restraining order/no contact order on MR. Is this in regards to her son? Is this MR's son as well. Stacey W a friend of MR stated he had a son but had no contact for some reason.

It was in her interview with the star last week.

[Paintr]

“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

“I don’t know how she hooked up with her mom again, but obviously, she did,” she said. “I think monsters are made.”

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

People who knew TLM speak out.

First I'v heard of juvenile detention and stabbing a little girl.

[margaret_diane]

I know of someone who works with MR's mother. She states that the mother missed work to attend court but she thought it was drug related. She indicated though that MR was in and out of trouble

You mean she didn't realize until she went to court he'd been charged with abduction and murder?? Does she live in a cave? Had she not seen the news?? I find this hard to believe -- but if its true -- wow what a shocker for the mother!!:eek:

[margaret_diane]

I want to know if his mother is going to do the right thing and convince her son to tell LE where Tori is resting????.

Kinda hard to convince him to spill it, if in face he REALLY didn't do it like he stated in court last week!!

We must remember that all we have (we being the general public) are some allegations from TLM that he DID do it. We don't KNOW for sure that he did - -even though LE says they have a strong case....

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[margaret_diane]

This article I found (and quoted from below) seems to answer a few questions about MR's home life prior to the abduction...... I appologize if this was already posted, its been online for awhile, but I only just now came across it... according to the article DR had dated MR's mother for 6 years. The article noted she has 3 sons (MR of course being one of them)... interesting to note that DR is quoted as saying he belived MR would end up in jail, but not for something like this (paraphrased by me).

"During the year that the three lived in the small, semi-detached house, the fights at the home escalated to the point that the police once had to be called, a neighbour said. Ms. Murray was in financial trouble, and Mr. Riddell was frustrated that her son wouldn't help her out. Neighbours said Mr. Rafferty would sit in his beaten-up Honda hatchback, blasting heavy-metal music in the driveway"

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090521.TORIRAFFERTY21ART2250/TPStory/

[PepperFritz]

I know of someone who works with MR's mother. She states that the mother missed work to attend court but she thought it was drug related. She indicated though that MR was in and out of trouble.


You mean she didn't realize until she went to court he'd been charged with abduction and murder?? Does she live in a cave? Had she not seen the news?? I find this hard to believe -- but if its true -- wow what a shocker for the mother!!:eek:


The way I read Lily's post is that the co-worker reported that MR's mother has often in the past missed work to attend court on behalf of her son (which the co-worker assumed was drug-related) -- the point being that he was often in and out of trouble with the law.

[gardenia]

Kinda hard to convince him to spill it, if in face he REALLY didn't do it like he stated in court last week!!

We must remember that all we have (we being the general public) are some allegations from TLM that he DID do it. We don't KNOW for sure that he did - -even though LE says they have a strong case....

Just playing devil's advocate here.

yeah, i don't trust TLM to be truthful about any of this - she is looking to blame someone & portray MTR in the worst possible light (which may or may not be true - and seriously, i hope he isn't a pedophile!!)

[ChaChaCha]

“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

“I don’t know how she hooked up with her mom again, but obviously, she did,” she said. “I think monsters are made.”

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

People who knew TLM speak out.

First I'v heard of juvenile detention and stabbing a little girl.


Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

[antiquegirl]

“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

“I don’t know how she hooked up with her mom again, but obviously, she did,” she said. “I think monsters are made.”

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

People who knew TLM speak out.

First I'v heard of juvenile detention and stabbing a little girl.

PotatoHead Alert: Some rumour and innuendo here, but also some solid facts for your timeline.

Thanks, Paintr!

[Paintr]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

The bit about the juvie is still there in the article I quoted above. Said by some girl who knew TLM in younger days.

[paris_paris]

It's still there. 8th paragraph from the bottom.

[ChaChaCha]

The bit about the juvie is still there in the article I quoted above. Said by some girl who knew TLM in younger days.

Ah yes, I see it now ... so much for my speed reading skills. I have to pop out for a bit - hoping that when I get back there will be good news about the court appearance and someone will have sleuthed a bit more information about detention and little girls - as if that were possible with the YOAct in place now, but you never know...

Thanks again....

[antiquegirl]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted?


Cha-x3: It's there. Look again.

“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

9:00 a.m. tomorrow by video feed.

[Mazama]

I just read the article, the statement about the stabbing is in there.

[scotslass]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

ITs there about 6 paragraphs or so from the end, just after this line "MacDonald said her daughter was upset to hear the news, since McClintic was her good buddy."


ETA: sorry I see this has been answered I should refresh before i post LMAO..

[Paintr]

http://multimedia.simcoe.com/images/15/e0/625109194b2db58960780bff10a8.jpeg

photo of TLM and her adoptive mother...

[margaret_diane]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

I grabbed the article ... emailed it to myself... here is the quote from the article in question ---
MacDonald said her daughter was upset to hear the news, since McClintic was her good buddy.

“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

“I don’t know how she hooked up with her mom again, but obviously, she did,” she said. “I think monsters are made.”

[Lexiintoronto]

The search for Tori reminded me of an Ohio murder of two children. Their father killed and buried them during a custody dispute. Once he was arrested, he tried but failed to lead LE to their bodies, and later killed himself in jail before they were recovered.

He did, however, leave enough clues that LE finally released to the public and eventually an amateur sleuther found their remains. If the OPP exhaust their search for Tori, I hope that they release some of TLM's information about where Tori was disposed of so that we can help recover her. Here's the story about the Ohio case:

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20145132,00.html

December 19, 2005 Vol. 64 No. 25 Miracle in the WoodsBy Bob Meadows
Moved by a Stranger's Plea for Help, Stephanie Dietrich Spent Five Months Scouring Ohio's Forests for Two Murdered Children—Until She Found Their BodiesFor five months Stephanie Dietrich crisscrossed northeast Ohio's wooded areas in her red Dodge Intrepid, searching for the bodies of two missing children she had never met. "All summer long I had four shovels, a pickax, work gloves, mud boots and a flashlight in the car with me," says Dietrich, 44, an Akron mother of two. Coworkers, she admits, thought she "was nuts." Friends were "concerned I was getting too obsessed." Her husband, Bob, she says, "tried to get me to stop."

But she would not, and her obsession—and detective skills—finally paid off. On Dec. 1 she discovered the remains of Sarah and Philip Gehring, siblings from Hillsborough, N.H., who had been missing since July 4, 2003, when their father, Manuel Gehring, shot and killed them. Before he committed suicide in prison, Gehring had given authorities frustratingly vague clues to their resting place, saying he buried them somewhere along a 700-mile stretch of Interstate 80. Several law enforcement agencies, the children's mother, Teri Knight, and many volunteers spent countless hours searching in vain. "It's a miracle anyone found it," Jefferey Strelzin, New Hampshire senior assistant attorney general, told the Akron Beacon Journal.


ETA: WS thread on the search: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23&highlight=sara+gehring

[LilyMacBloom]

The way I read Lily's post is that the co-worker reported that MR's mother has often in the past missed work to attend court on behalf of her son (which the co-worker assumed was drug-related) -- the point being that he was often in and out of trouble with the law.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. Thanks Pep for helping me out.

[Paintr]

Good thing they were finally recovered so that family could have a place for them.

Does this mean you are loading up your car with 'four shovels, a pickax, work gloves, mud boots and a flashlight' and heading down the 401? :)

[ella's mom]

You mean she didn't realize until she went to court he'd been charged with abduction and murder?? Does she live in a cave? Had she not seen the news?? I find this hard to believe -- but if its true -- wow what a shocker for the mother!!:eek:

That's not how I read it. I read it as in the past she went to court for him and the co-worker thought it was drug related.

[Lexiintoronto]

Good thing they were finally recovered so that family could have a place for them.

Does this mean you are loading up your car with 'four shovels, a pickax, work gloves, mud boots and a flashlight' and heading down the 401? :) :) Yes, and my two jack russel terriers are volunteering, too.

[Turbododger]

I think Rafferty only had the car PARTIALLY painted at the time of abduction, as indicated by LFP today:

This Civic, which has black spray-paint over the hood, roof and trunk of the car, was spotted in the parking lot of a Guelph Home Depot on the day Tori was abducted.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580991-sun.html

AND

2003 blue Honda Civic that had been partially spray-painted black.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/canada/article/234475


I think he finished spray painting AFTER the abduction, and that's why the pictures NOW are complete. MOO MOO

[Paintr]

:) Yes, and my two jack russel terriers are volunteering, too.

LOL! I'll talk to my yellow Lab.

Wish she could be found tho. ?Not having her body must add even more heartbreak to an already horrible situation.

[LilyMacBloom]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824
“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

Godfrey said when she was 14, she would drive Terri-Lynne and her mother around in Carol McClintic’s car, because Carol was too drunk. She said she also saw Carol beat her daughter, once beating her in public at the local arena, where an arena employee called police.
Eventually, Terri-Lynne fought back, beating up her mom, who called the police and had her daughter arrested for assault

[margaret_diane]

:) Yes, and my two jack russel terriers are volunteering, too.

I'm coming too!! I've already made the drive (few hours for me) with husband and kids in tow just to see the area in question first hand, and get a sense of where the abudction happened! I'm trying to convince my husband to go again with me on Saturday -- I want to see the general search area and such...

I want this baby girl found and reuinted with those who loved and cherish her!

[CarrieBean]

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824
“She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

Godfrey said when she was 14, she would drive Terri-Lynne and her mother around in Carol McClintic’s car, because Carol was too drunk. She said she also saw Carol beat her daughter, once beating her in public at the local arena, where an arena employee called police.
Eventually, Terri-Lynne fought back, beating up her mom, who called the police and had her daughter arrested for assault

Anyone know, is it ok to discuss the crimes committed by her as a youth? If not, I need to go back and edit another post.

I edited a previous post of mine, then decided to delete it. Unsure.

I'm guessing the 'juvenile detention centre' was changed from the actual name of the place.

[another nosey mom]

Investigators are still searching for the grey cloth-covered rear seat from the 2003 Honda Civic that police believe was involved in the eight-year-old's April 8 abduction. While a few abandoned rear seats have been found in recent days, including one in the Kitchener area, police have indicated they do not belong to the suspect vehicle. This Civic, which has black spray-paint over the hood, roof and trunk of the car, was spotted in the parking lot of a Guelph Home Depot on the day that Tori was abducted.

McClintic and Michael Rafferty, the 28-year-old charged with Tori's abduction and murder, are scheduled to appear by video in Woodstock courtroom on Thursday. According to his lawyer, Hal Mattson of Kitchener, Rafferty is currently in segregation and on suicide watch in a London jail.

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1585769


I don;t know if this link has already been posted??

In this article it states that the car seat has NOT been found yet

[another nosey mom]

All I can say is that there are 3 mom's that have a lot going on in their head, the victim's mom TM, and both of the accused mom's... it must be very very hard. TLM's mom is not well and this must just be the icing on the cake to have to have this kind of thing happen. MR's mom, must also be wondering a lot of things. No one wants to think their child is capable of this kind of crime. Hopefully, whoever did it can at least fess up to where Tori is.

[antiquegirl]

I think he finished spray painting AFTER the abduction, and that's why the pictures NOW are complete. MOO MOO

(Snipped by me)

I don't think he ever finished painting the car. This is the latest pic released by LE and you can see where it has not been painted.

http://cd989.com/uploads/433ac1a2-eb5d-69b2.jpg

[CarrieBean]

(Snipped by me)

I don't think he ever finished painting the car. This is the latest pic released by LE and you can see where it has not been painted.

http://cd989.com/uploads/433ac1a2-eb5d-69b2.jpg

All but the bumper appears to be complete. The article made it sound like only the hood, roof and trunk were painted black.

[Turbododger]

(Snipped by me)

I don't think he ever finished painting the car. This is the latest pic released by LE and you can see where it has not been painted.

http://cd989.com/uploads/433ac1a2-eb5d-69b2.jpg

Right, well, there was speculation about the front "wearing off", so, I think you are right, he didn't finish. What I meant by finished, is that the sides of the car finished "after"....I have to back and look at the Esso photo again now...I don't know why LFP would all of a sudden today start referencing specific parts of the hood and roof, today?

[Turbododger]

I found some pictures today that I had not seen before of Rafferty, including one @ Great Wolf Lodge.

I personally wish they would take Tori's sweet pictures right out of there, I don't even want them on the same page.

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?x=galleries&s=gallery&p=3054&pg=65

[Kamille]

It appears to me as though there is some kind of dark gray paint on the sides of the car that was rubbed on but the hood, roof and trunk do look more like a black spray paint was used. You can see the drips near the front of the hood. It was like this in the gas station picture and the darker hood, roof and trunk are more prominent. It looks like he originally put some kind of primer on the whole car and then started spray painting the black but he didn't finish spray painting the sides.

I still think the dark gray paint has worn off the bumper because it would not be metal and the primer paint probably wouldn't adhere to it as well.

[antiquegirl]

Right, well, there was speculation about the front "wearing off", so, I think you are right, he didn't finish. What I meant by finished, is that the sides of the car finished "after"....I have to back and look at the Esso photo again now...I don't know why LFP would all of a sudden today start referencing specific parts of the hood and roof, today?

I'm sorry to say, but the media has printed so much misinformation and errors that it boggles the mind. The conflicting reports are part of the reason we are so confused and waste so much time trying to find the "real" story. LFP, in particular, is guilty of sloppy reporting, from what I've seen. MOO

[antiquegirl]

It appears to me as though there is some kind of dark gray paint on the sides of the car that was rubbed on but the hood, roof and trunk do look more like a black spray paint was used. You can see the drips near the front of the hood. It was like this in the gas station picture and the darker hood, roof and trunk are more prominent. It looks like he originally put some kind of primer on the whole car and then started spray painting the black but he didn't finish spray painting the sides.

I still think the dark gray paint has worn off the bumper because it would not be metal and the primer paint probably wouldn't adhere to it as well.

I'm keeping in mind what WS member cdnDAD has posted on several occasions here: that this paint job was not necessarily done to disguise the car. Based on other additions to the vehicle, cdnDad (who has a lot of experience in this field), deduces that the owner of the car is a "ricer" - a person who makes modifications to his vehicle to make it look more "cool" and more like a racer. He posted pics of other cars in the process of being modified this way. There is the possibility that MTR (or whoever owned the car) was in the beginning stages of this type of modification and it had nothing to do with the abduction. Just another theory to consider.

[SFB73]

I was thinking about this as well, if the car was sprayed, it would have taken a great deal of effort and time to mask off the windows etc... I am now leading towards the fact the car was rubbed rather than sprayed... the paint around the windows etc looks to clean to just have been sprayed without proper masking...

Could this be some sort of polish or something that was applied to the car with the intent to wipe it clean eventually, the front bumper area to me, looks as though the same material was applied to it, and has come off due to the elements and wind etc while driving, this is prominant in the flat non areodynamic surfaces on thefront of the car, also look at the corners of the bumber, you can almost see where the air has been deflected around to the sides of the front of the car and the colour is starting to wear in a pattern similar to what could be made by the wind passing around the bumpers corner. Also look to the right of the license plate, it looks as though there was at one time some grey colouring there as well about 1/4" in width as if to further prove my thoughts on the entire bumper at one time being covered with this material.


Perhaps this car was stowed away after its use in the crime, if it wasn't the ever day car of MR. Seeing as the other photos show him in a different vehicle? Perhaps this beater was "procured" for use in this crime.

These photos definitely do not look like a spray job on the car, look at the bumper... the base colour of blue is shown to the right of the grill in a way that looks like it was rubbed as the edge of the grey is pretty solid as if it was wiped on and spots missed, or the disguise material had worn away from driving.

With all due respect, I dont think these other "ricers" who are in the process of modding their cars and have them at various states of modding are also facing the fact that their car is a key piece of evidence in an abduction/murder investigation! Its just too coincidental for it to not be considered a reason to change the vehicles colour, it also looks like it has been done in haste with not a lot of care taken.

[another nosey mom]

I found some pictures today that I had not seen before of Rafferty, including one @ Great Wolf Lodge.

I personally wish they would take Tori's sweet pictures right out of there, I don't even want them on the same page.

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?x=galleries&s=gallery&p=3054&pg=65

I hope there are no crazy people at Great Wolf Lodge like that this week, just sent off my son on school trip there for the remainder of the week!

There is a good photo there of his tattoos, someone was asking for them a while back, but I can't remember who?

[Kamille]

I'm keeping in mind what WS member cdnDAD has posted on several occasions here: that this paint job was not necessarily done to disguise the car. Based on other additions to the vehicle, cdnDad (who has a lot of experience in this field), deduces that the owner of the car is a "ricer" - a person who makes modifications to his vehicle to make it look more "cool" and more like a racer. He posted pics of other cars in the process of being modified this way. There is the possibility that MTR (or whoever owned the car) was in the beginning stages of this type of modification and it had nothing to do with the abduction. Just another theory to consider.


I agree with you here antiquegirl. I think the "paint job" on the car was a work in progress. That's why I have suggested that the whole car was that mottled dark gray colour that you see on the sides before he actually sprayed paint on the hood, roof and trunk. And it looks like he still had some work to do on the hood and front grill before moving on to the sides.

[another nosey mom]

still can't think of a real good reason why you would want to change the colour of the car from a shiny bright blue, to one that is a dull black or dark blue ?? other than a disguise

[Tonyt]

When did MR live in Drayton? Does anyone know? OPP has an open missing girl case from 2006 from Drayton. Also, I'm beginning to wonder if he returned to the area after dropping off TLM and moved evidence (body). If memory serves there was about a 5-6 day weather window, before some snow/bad weather came back (Fergus area).

[CarrieBean]

Anyone know, is it ok to discuss the crimes committed by her as a youth? If not, I need to go back and edit another post.

I edited a previous post of mine, then decided to delete it. Unsure.

I'm guessing the 'juvenile detention centre' was changed from the actual name of the place.


I guess this means it's ok.
Exception (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/Y-1.5/bo-ga:l_6-gb:s_110//en#anchorbo-ga:l_6-gb:s_110)
(3) A young person referred to in subsection (1) may, after he or she attains the age of eighteen years, publish or cause to be published information that would identify him or her as having been dealt with under this Act or the Young Offenders Act, chapter Y-1 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1985, provided that he or she is not in custody pursuant to either Act at the time of the publication.

[Paintr]

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16505


The search for Victoria Stafford has returned to Oxford County. A unit of officers are searching alongside the 401 between Highway 2 and Drumbo Road today. Police are still asking the public to keep an eye out for a discarded grey, cloth, rear seat from a Honda Civic which they believe was used in the abduction of Tori. Constable Laurie Anne Maitland says she appreciates the support of the public and realizes the search is taking some time but she says they need to be as meticulous as possible.

[CarrieBean]

I agree with you here antiquegirl. I think the "paint job" on the car was a work in progress. That's why I have suggested that the whole car was that mottled dark gray colour that you see on the sides before he actually sprayed paint on the hood, roof and trunk. And it looks like he still had some work to do on the hood and front grill before moving on to the sides.

To me the paint texture looks pretty similar all around. It looks like he started off giving it full coverage but got lazy or realised there wouldn't be enough paint, then once he got around to the bumper and ran out of paint he tried to take it from a wet area and rub/brush it across the front.

[roseofsharon]

LE needs more help!! Why can't the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves be asked to assist the police? The longer this goes on, the less chance of preserving any DNA evidence and that is a very scarry thought.

Why aren't search teams with the general public being organized.

Has a reward been posted. Before CA (Florida) was found, LP posted a reward for CA's return -- either way.

MOO

[Mimi]

still can't think of a real good reason why you would want to change the colour of the car from a shiny bright blue, to one that is a dull black or dark blue ?? other than a disguise

Unless they were using a primer before they were going to paint it? Dunno- just a random thought!

[Turbododger]

A lawyer for the man charged with killing Victoria (Tori) Stafford yesterday slammed Oxford Community Police Chief Ron Fraser for describing the case against his client as "strong" in an interview with Sun Media

Smart said he has "resolved to say very little until we get some disclosure of fact," and the Rafferty family is similarly reluctant to speak out.

One relative, though, suggested to Sun Media the family has serious reservations about the charges against Rafferty.

"We just want the truth to come out," Jon Cundy said. "If anyone has any sort of (strange) feeling (about the case), there's a lot of people having that feeling."


http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1585662&auth=PATRICK MALONEY, SUN MEDIA

Okay, folks, this is his brother speaking here. John and Mel from the WEDDING pics. Appear to be in Midland, ON. JC and MDC.....Sounds like they are in some serious denial. There's going to be alot more hitting the fan...IMO.

[whodunnit]

Dragging over from the last thread:
Originally Posted by victorian
I really have to jump in here. Maybe #1 and #2 are tabu in bigger cities, but certainly not unusual circumstances.
I find it unfair to judge the parents or school for what I've always seen as common practice. Including my own kids!


Quote: whodunnit
Just because these 'screw ups' are common practices doesn't mean they should ever happen, whether in a large urban city like Toronto, or a sleepy (ahem, oxy-induced) little town like Woodstock, which iI always thought was a pretty creepy place anyways.

In other words, parents and other guardians (e.g. public schools) of 8 year olds, be mindful of the Criminal Code provisions relating to child abandonment, which apply to kids under the age of 10 years old:

Don't let these kids out of an adult's watchful eyes. It's a simple rule, and in fact, it's enshrined in our law.

If there's any lesson to be learned from the case of Tori Stafford, let this be it.
------------------------------------
Sorry I have to respond as I'm at a loss here. Are you referring to Canadian law or American? Even within that there are provincial and state laws as well.

Are you saying that no child under the age of ten should ever be out of eye shot?

The relevant provisions of Canada's Criminal Code are found in Sections 214 and 218. These speak to the idea that the child's life must be or is likely to be endangered or the child's health must be or is likely to be permanently injured. So, I don't think these provisions would apply to the situation when an 8 year old is allowed to walk home from school unescorted.

However, the Province of Ontario also has legislation of important relevance to parents of young children. The Child and Family Services Act provides that:

Sec. 79(3) "No person having charge of a child less than 16 years of age shall leave the child without making provision for his or her supervision and care that is reasonable in the circumstances."

Sec. 79(4) "Where a person is charged with contravening subsection (3) and the child is less than 10 years of age, the onus of establishing that the person made provision for the child's supervision and care that was reasonable in the circumstances rests with the person."

IMO this means that, you as parents, and schools acting in the place of parents, are responsible for their children's safety and well-being until they are 16 years old, and they are obligated by law to provide adequate supervision and care.

IMO the determinative factor is "what is reasonable in the circumstance".
The legislation leaves parents and schools to make the initial determination of this. But they better be right.

IMO Tori's parents and her school fell woefully short of providing reasonable supervision and care for her walk home from school on that fateful day.

Hopefully, one societal benefit of this tragedy will be that parents and schools will reconsider both their ethical and legal obligations in the supervision and care of their children, and in so doing, minimize the potential for more such tragedies from occurring.

[another nosey mom]

To me the paint texture looks pretty similar all around. It looks like he started off giving it full coverage but got lazy or realised there wouldn't be enough paint, then once he got around to the bumper and ran out of paint he tried to take it from a wet area and rub/brush it across the front.

if he painted the car and then drove the car soon after, the paint would come off of the car from the wind... I wonder if he was doing the painting at a car wash in Guelph?? Didn't someone say that the LE were looking at all of the carwashes there?

[elepher50]

When did MR live in Drayton? Does anyone know? OPP has an open missing girl case from 2006 from Drayton. Also, I'm beginning to wonder if he returned to the area after dropping off TLM and moved evidence (body). If memory serves there was about a 5-6 day weather window, before some snow/bad weather came back (Fergus area).

Hi Tonyt, I looked at OPP missing cases and didn't see this - how old is the missing girl?

[wendell]

the car was originally blue, the colour of the front bumper in the picture posted on this thread.
then he tried with a blue spray paint bought at crappy tire to paint the word civic and have the light blue fade upwards.. however he painted directly over the clear coat, so he could have just powerwashed it off, however he drove with it like that, and then over time it got all scratched and scrapped up... then after unsuccessfully trying to wet sand that paint off (basically he forgot to buff it after sanding it which is why the headlights also look like crap) he tried painting it with that blue purple colour changing paint.... which also got scratched up...
and it turned into a black muddy looking mess that he never finished, and was done long enough ago as there was rust starting to come through the muddy black paint you see in the photos online.

[elepher50]

LE needs more help!! Why can't the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves be asked to assist the police? The longer this goes on, the less chance of preserving any DNA evidence and that is a very scarry thought.

Why aren't search teams with the general public being organized.

Has a reward been posted. Before CA (Florida) was found, LP posted a reward for CA's return -- either way.

MOO

Hi roseofsharon, I am so behind your thinking on this - LE have been all over the place looking for Tori, the area is huge for foot searching. I agree, something has to be done to find her - this has gone on far too long. Public grid searches organized and led by LE/armed forces/TES - whoever and whatever is required. I am starting to get a bit angry now.

[Turbododger]

the car was originally blue, the colour of the front bumper in the picture posted on this thread.
then he tried with a blue spray paint bought at crappy tire to paint the word civic and have the light blue fade upwards.. however he painted directly over the clear coat, so he could have just powerwashed it off, however he drove with it like that, and then over time it got all scratched and scrapped up... then after unsuccessfully trying to wet sand that paint off (basically he forgot to buff it after sanding it which is why the headlights also look like crap) he tried painting it with that blue purple colour changing paint.... which also got scratched up...
and it turned into a black muddy looking mess that he never finished, and was done long enough ago as there was rust starting to come through the muddy black paint you see in the photos online.

Welcome to Websleuths, Wendell. Is this speculation or do you know this, if I may respectfully inquire?

[Tonyt]

Hi Tonyt, I looked at OPP missing cases and didn't see this - how old is the missing girl?

http://www.missing-u.ca/qryUI_Intro/MPDetail.aspx?MPs=%3Ckey%3E%3Ccv%3E%3Cc%3EtblMissi ng.MID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E207%3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3C cv%3E%3Cc%3EtblMissing.PersonID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E49 2%3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3Ccv%3E%3Cc%3EtblInvest.Inv estID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E470%3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3Cc v%3E%3Cc%3EtblPhoto.PhotoID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E85811% 3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3Ccv%3E%3Cc%3EtblPerson.Perso nID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E492%3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3Ccv% 3E%3Cc%3EtblLocation.LocID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E289%3C% 2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3Ccv%3E%3Cc%3EtblClothing.Clothi ngID%3C%2fc%3E%3Cv%3E135840%3C%2fv%3E%3C%2fcv%3E%3 C%2fkey%3E

[ThoughtElf]

Hi roseofsharon, I am so behind your thinking on this - LE have been all over the place looking for Tori, the area is huge for foot searching. I agree, something has to be done to find her - this has gone on far too long. Public grid searches organized and led by LE/armed forces/TES - whoever and whatever is required. I am starting to get a bit angry now.

It is getting absurd. Time for ground searches with any organizations/public help they can get.

Anyone know WHY they haven't asked for help yet? What's the rationale?

[wendell]

oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

[Kat]

It's beyond absurd. It's starting to make me vewwy vewwy angry. Grrr. :furious:

PH do you happen to recall if the Astro's projected a date of activity that might signify Tori being found? I remember something happening towards the end of this month or was it the first two weeks of June? TIA

[ThoughtElf]

Can't recall, Kat. I started to try to catch up there last night and got side-tracked. I'll go check.

[Moggie]

LE needs more help!! Why can't the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves be asked to assist the police? The longer this goes on, the less chance of preserving any DNA evidence and that is a very scarry thought.

Why aren't search teams with the general public being organized.

Has a reward been posted. Before CA (Florida) was found, LP posted a reward for CA's return -- either way.

MOO


Top of my wish list is:
1. A organization similar to Texas equusearch with someone like Tim Miller too run it, but it takes money and someone who is determined to see it through. www.texasequusearch.org (http://www.texasequusearch.org)

[ThoughtElf]

It's beyond absurd. It's starting to make me vewwy vewwy angry. Grrr. :furious:

PH do you happen to recall if the Astro's projected a date of activity that might signify Tori being found? I remember something happening towards the end of this month or was it the first two weeks of June? TIA

Maybe this one Tuba posted?

Still looking for that other post.

[Kamille]

oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

So you are a neighbour of MR?

[wendell]

no. a friend.

[Kat]

Maybe this one (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3779718&postcount=364)Tuba posted?

Still looking for that other post.

That was the post! Thank you so much PH. Given that there is a projection that there will be media saturation, let's keep our fingers crossed that it is because she has been found (hopefully sooner).

[roseofsharon]

:waitasec:oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

Whoa -- this raises a red flag!! Every single time it gets done. Hmmm, and why would someone do this kind of painstaking work so often. Wendall -- approximately how many times would you say you have observed this being done -- I think you have brought up a very important fact.

MOO

[elepher50]

It's beyond absurd. It's starting to make me vewwy vewwy angry. Grrr. :furious:

PH do you happen to recall if the Astro's projected a date of activity that might signify Tori being found? I remember something happening towards the end of this month or was it the first two weeks of June? TIA

Hi Kat, Oh I remember very well that our ASTOS projected a date of either Sunday or Monday just this week. Now, LE is starting to screw around with our ASTRO predictions too and I really don't like that. :furious::furious:

[ThoughtElf]

Kat, I ran various searches on the thread. The closest I found was the one I linked above from Tuba. I think that might have been the one we were thinking of. I did find another that was a tad more depressing. Citing end of year, not end of month or June.

[crazyladi]

I feel the tension in this room.....

When I first posted and up until recently I really was pissed at TM for everything that she did and the neglect of her child. My feelings have changed a bit. I feel extremely bad for her and I cant imagine the pain that she is going through. I think it was hard for her to believe that she could have possibly put her child in danger. Maybe she didnt mean to and maybe she was too high to realise it. I am sure right now she is replaying everything that happened over and over again. People make mistakes. For example, when i was 18 i was driving on the highway with 2 people in my car from london to mississauga and i was going 180km my car was floating. I could have killed everyone. I think back now at how stupid that was. My sister is an addict and she is very much in denial and the affect his has on everyone around her. TM thought that same thing. It is unfortunate that OXY has played a big role in all of this. All the main people are OXY addicts. People that are addicts go to extreme measure to get their next fix. I never even knew that woodstock had that big of a problem with that drug there until Tori;s disappearance. I am out of touch with that stuff though because I chose not to hang around people that do that. My ex is a drug addict and a dealer and I know he is in to the OXY's now. He is scary and if he couldnt get his next fixed he got violent.

My sister would never steal, lie, cheat nothing..But my mom took away her money and she started stealing the sudafed and got busted. Imagine being 34yrs old and being caught stealing because of your addiction. I guess an addict doesnt care at the time of doing what they are doing because they have one goal in mind. Get the drugs.

As much as i want to hate and hurt TLM I sympathize with what she has gone through in her life. It is an unfortunate thing and you are a product of your upbringing. I dont know what happened that day and I hope that we do find out. I just dont see how anyone could have killed her unless it was by accident. Are they saying she was taken for sexual reason because of what TLM is saying? I hope not. I hope they havent gone on what she has said. They both seem to have had troubles in their lives and to me it is very sad because there would really have been no way of preventing this from happening. I think this was premeditated and she wanted Tori. She probably knew that Tori goes home alone sometimes and waited for her chance. Maybe it was a randsom gone wrong. Anything could have happened and if that is the case why not fess up to where the body is. If you are not responsible and you feel that you have had less of a part in it, than show where she is!!! Maybe that is why TLM was doing that, or maybe she is just as manipulative as she sounds.

Maybe we will never hear what happened, and maybe Tori will not get the justice she deserves, and maybe her parents will never get their baby back in one piece and that is the most heartbreaking thing ever. I could not even imagine or cope with that. I am not sure what I would do, i really dont.

I tell you one thing is that this case changed how I think and how i view people. The statistics are high when it comes to children being molested. I think (and dont quote me on it) it was something like 7-10 children are molested by the time they are 9. That is scary. How do we protect our children, really?

I was thinking last night that as parents we spend our whole protecting our children. You can lose your child to anything in an instant. I dont think I could handle one min without my daughter. So my heart goes out to all those people who have lost family and friends to people like this. It is a very sad world and seems to be only getting worse.

[elepher50]

Kat, I ran various searches on the thread. The closest I found was the one I linked above from Tuba. I think that might have been the one we were thinking of. I did find another that was a tad more depressing. Citing end of year, not end of month or June.

Hi PH, The post we want is the one from Tuba which basically says Tori should have been found already - I will go on a hunt for it if you want.

[antiquegirl]

still can't think of a real good reason why you would want to change the colour of the car from a shiny bright blue, to one that is a dull black or dark blue ?? other than a disguise

Well, there might have been scratches or worn paint already in spots we don't see. The car may have been dented and repaired and then been in the initial stages of being re-painted. I don't know much about the subject, but this may not be paint at all, but a primer applied before the paint. He may even have been planning to paint it the same blue as the original.

I have a busy afternoon and evening coming up, or I would do some research on primers.

And for whoever was pointing out the blue car in MTR's profile pics, it has been proven (maybe in the other thread) that this was an entirely different car.

Just trying to explore different possibilities here so we don't jump to false conclusions.

[Kat]

Oh egads, please please don't let it be until the end of the year. please~please~please.

Especially for her brother :(

[Flowercb]

Thank you.... very interesting and candid interviews BUT I read it twice looking for the reference to juvy and stabbing, and it is not there now...perhaps that portion has been deleted? I see that the article has been viewed only a coupla hundred times (minimal IMO) so perhaps it hasn't caught fire yet.

I wonder if you saved the article you read? Some info there perhaps that was put out there and then quickly grabbed back...

Thank you again....Sheds some light....

Has anyone heard yet about the court appearances?

I was surprised that they would have advertised that TLM stabbed a little girl. She was probably under 18 at the time and being a young offender they could not publish her name. I guess that is probably why it disappeared from the article?

[cdnDAD]

With all due respect, I dont think these other "ricers" who are in the process of modding their cars and have them at various states of modding are also facing the fact that their car is a key piece of evidence in an abduction/murder investigation! Its just too coincidental for it to not be considered a reason to change the vehicles colour, it also looks like it has been done in haste with not a lot of care taken.

Ok it seems like i'm defending this possible POS MR but again, it may be very hard for someone to understand why they would do this to their car, for "modding" purposes especially if they are normal thinkers but I can't stress enough I've had experience with these sorts of car groupies not to long ago and you would be surprised what people would do...

I don't think this car was intended just for this crime, its a 2003 civic even on autotrader with high km's these cars sell for 4000 dollars and up. This was not a beater, it looked like a beater cause it was 2 different colors. The other cars we've seen pics of him in could be old cars he had, could be friends, cars. I personally have about 200 pics from my car club days, I have pics of cars that weren't mine but I thought were nice etc.

The other option is this could have been an attempt to primer the car for a possible repaint, maybe there was peeling paint or scratches or god knows and he primed the car and never got to the painting part..???

I am not married to any theories or anything I'm just trying to throw info out there that others may not be aware exists...so people can maybe make sense of other things and form strong opinions.

[ThoughtElf]

LMAO @ EL. You get 'em!

Ok, on that note - have a great afternoon everyone! See if you can knock some sense into them and get an organized search going, EL.

[Kamille]

no. a friend.

His arrest must have come as a shock to you then. Had you had recent contact with him?

[elepher50]

elepher, the 30th of May Moon will be in Virgo while Mercury moves direct, so we can expect a turn of events then. I am not talking about locating Victoria's body, that should come much sooner; the Sun was inconjunct Pluto of the court chart, so she by rights she should have been found today.

From post #361 dated 22 May, 2009

Taken from here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83174&page=15

[Kamille]

Ok it seems like i'm defending this possible POS MR but again, it may be very hard for someone to understand why they would do this to their car, for "modding" purposes especially if they are normal thinkers but I can't stress enough I've had experience with these sorts of car groupies not to long ago and you would be surprised what people would do...

I don't think this car was intended just for this crime, its a 2003 civic even on autotrader with high km's these cars sell for 4000 dollars and up. This was not a beater, it looked like a beater cause it was 2 different colors. The other cars we've seen pics of him in could be old cars he had, could be friends, cars. I personally have about 200 pics from my car club days, I have pics of cars that weren't mine but I thought were nice etc.

The other option is this could have been an attempt to primer the car for a possible repaint, maybe there was peeling paint or scratches or god knows and he primed the car and never got to the painting part..???

I am not married to any theories or anything I'm just trying to throw info out there that others may not be aware exists...so people can maybe make sense of other things and form strong opinions.


Did you see the post on the previous page from Wendall? He seems to have some knowledge as to what the paint job was all about.

[ChaChaCha]

no. a friend.

Welcome friend... and thank you for posting. This must be extremely difficult for you ....

[Mazama]

oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

What else do you know about him that you could share with us? I'd be interested in hearing what you might have seen/heard/observed. :eek:

[ChaChaCha]

I was surprised that they would have advertised that TLM stabbed a little girl. She was probably under 18 at the time and being a young offender they could not publish her name. I guess that is probably why it disappeared from the article?

My apologies Flower - I scanned the article twice (instead of reading it) and skimmed right over that part entirely. It is still there... quite the article though - extremely candid.... did you note the remark about the town getting a bad reputation "again"? What is with that?

[wendell]

difficult is an understatement.
how do you begin to trust the other people in your life, when this could possibly be one of your best friends???

[Flowercb]

My apologies Flower - I scanned the article twice (instead of reading it) and skimmed right over that part entirely. It is still there... quite the article though - extremely candid.... did you note the remark about the town getting a bad reputation "again"? What is with that?

TLM must have stabbed the girl within the last year then because as per my previous posting, I thought you could not advertise a young offenders name with connection to the crime they committed.

[antiquegirl]

Hi roseofsharon, I am so behind your thinking on this - LE have been all over the place looking for Tori, the area is huge for foot searching. I agree, something has to be done to find her - this has gone on far too long. Public grid searches organized and led by LE/armed forces/TES - whoever and whatever is required. I am starting to get a bit angry now.

My biggest fear is that the remains are somewhere where she may never be found. Remember how they were first looking in that dumpster that was located on a commercial lot? I had asked someone from the area where that specific location took their waste and she didn't know. What if everything in dumpsters like those have long ago been shipped out to landfills far away? (Wasn't there talk a few years ago about our garbage being taken to Detroit, or was that just Toronto?) If that was the case, the likelihood now of finding the remains might be very small indeed. I truly hope that this fear is unfounded and that Tori is found soon.

[Mazama]

And for whoever was pointing out the blue car in MTR's profile pics, it has been proven (maybe in the other thread) that this was an entirely different car.

Snipped by me:
antiquegirl, could you please post the thread that proves this please? I'm very interested in seeing the differences. ty :)

[ThoughtElf]

Back for two quick updates:

Updated - Fantino says OPP working hard to locate Tori's body (http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090527/tori_search_090527/20090527/?hub=TorontoNewHome)

"Trying to piece together a comprehensive picture of what has happened is a complex task and that's what we're trying to do," he said.

and another...

Editorial/Opinion Piece - Tori's Law Won't Work (http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/edboard/archive/2009/05/27/tori-s-law-won-t-work.aspx)
"But here's an idea: Tier the system by age. The OPP criteria for AMBER Alerts refer to children under 18. Terri-Lynne McClintic is 18. Tori Stafford was eight. Spot the difference? There are lots of reasons for a 17-year-old or even a 15-year-old to disappear for a few hours without great cause for concern. Much less so for children under 10. Amber Hagerman herself was nine.

Why not have a lower standard for triggering an AMBER Alert for children who obviously can't fend for themselves? In fact maybe AMBER Alerts should be exclusively for children under 10."

(hmm. uhm. NO!)

[elepher50]

difficult is an understatement.
how do you begin to trust the other people in your life, when this could possibly be one of your best friends???

:Welcome-12-june: to WS wendell, Pull up a chair, sit down with us for awhile - we have some questions that you may be able to answer.

The last time you saw MR's car was the back seat in it? When was the last time you saw MR's car?

[wendell]

the last time i saw the car, the back seat was not in it... however the last time i saw the car was after april 8th.

[ChaChaCha]

difficult is an understatement.
how do you begin to trust the other people in your life, when this could possibly be one of your best friends???

Wendell, there is still much to come out in this case. If you read through the threads here, there are suggestions that perhaps MR did not do what TLM said that he did... that perhaps she was being vengeful or "mildly vindictive" as it has come to be known. If you are MR's friend and have known him for some time, then you need to trust your own judgement and keep an open mind. We do not know MR's character or his history and so much of what is out there is speculation... but this is a fair board, and I am sure that if there is a shift in evidence that it will be brought out and examined and opinions could rapidly change.

Again, I am so sorry that you are going through this ... it must be incredibly stressful and shocking....

You valued MR enough to call him one of your best friends... that says a lot.

[elepher50]

the last time i saw the car, the back seat was not in it... however the last time i saw the car was after april 8th.

Another question back: Did you see the car before April 8th and if so was the backseat in the car then?

Have you ever seen a backseat in MR's car?

[another nosey mom]

Wendell, Welcome!

[PepperFritz]

The search for Victoria Stafford has returned to Oxford County. A unit of officers are searching alongside the 401 between Highway 2 and Drumbo Road today. Police are still asking the public to keep an eye out for a discarded grey, cloth, rear seat from a Honda Civic which they believe was used in the abduction of Tori. Constable Laurie Anne Maitland says she appreciates the support of the public and realizes the search is taking some time but she says they need to be as meticulous as possible.

I wish LE would at least say whether they believe the body was "dumped" or was buried, so the public knows what to keep an eye out for....

[whodunnit]

difficult is an understatement.
how do you begin to trust the other people in your life, when this could possibly be one of your best friends???

Wendell, a lot of people, including myself, feel that MR may have been 'set up' by that girl. There doesn't appear to be anything in MR's past to indicate that he is a violent person or has any strange feelings towards kids. The girl, however, does have a lot of tell tale signs as being predisposed to violence. Maybe this is a case of your buddy getting mixed up with the wrong girl, it kinda looks like that to me.

[ballhockey mom]

Welcome Wendell..:wave:

[another nosey mom]

I wish LE would at least say whether they believe the body was "dumped" or was buried, so the public knows what to keep an eye out for....

and I also wish they would share with us what was purchased at HD

[wendell]

thanks chachacha, i have realized this is a fair board which is why i am willing to post here... i don't know much, what i do know tho, the cops now know as i've had to interviews with them since the arrest...

i call myself switzerland right now, as in i'm trying to remain neutral on if he did or didn't. over the past year we haven't hung out as much as we used to, but everytime i have seen him.. he's been the same old mike...

as for the car questions... i have seen the car before april 8th, but that was a long time ago... after he started painting it, i think i rode in it once, was soo embarrased by the looks people would give that anytime we hung out afterwards i would drive (you've all seen the pictures so i'm sure you can agree!!! and trust me on this one, right now it looks much better then it did.. which says a lot for how it used to look)

however it did have a backseat, i just can't tell you how long ago it was that i was actually in it.. but we did see it in early may and comment on the fact that it had no backseat or carpet in the trunk...

[another nosey mom]

Wendell, do you know Terri Lynn?? or know of her?

[ChaChaCha]

I wish LE would at least say whether they believe the body was "dumped" or was buried, so the public knows what to keep an eye out for....

I just caught the drift of your post now... Along the 401? Now that's odd if it is right along the highway and not close to an intersection (off/on ramp). My geography sucks, but having done that drive hundreds of times I know that it is a busy, busy stretch (and horrible in the winter). Once past the new Toyota plant heading east towards Toronto there isn't much in the way of development or exits off the highway - it is treed on the sides, with farmer's fields behind...

Locals?

[wendell]

nope, never met her, or heard of her prior to last wed.

[elepher50]

thanks chachacha, i have realized this is a fair board which is why i am willing to post here... i don't know much, what i do know tho, the cops now know as i've had to interviews with them since the arrest...

i call myself switzerland right now, as in i'm trying to remain neutral on if he did or didn't. over the past year we haven't hung out as much as we used to, but everytime i have seen him.. he's been the same old mike...

as for the car questions... i have seen the car before april 8th, but that was a long time ago... after he started painting it, i think i rode in it once, was soo embarrased by the looks people would give that anytime we hung out afterwards i would drive (you've all seen the pictures so i'm sure you can agree!!! and trust me on this one, right now it looks much better then it did.. which says a lot for how it used to look)

however it did have a backseat, i just can't tell you how long ago it was that i was actually in it.. but we did see it in early may and comment on the fact that it had no backseat or carpet in the trunk...

Thanks wendell and you are so right by staying on the neutral with your friend. There is still a lot to come out and to pre-judge would be a mistake. Do you know if MR had a cell phone with a camera?

[wendell]

yeah i believe its a blackberry he owns.

[Kat]

Welcome Wendell. I'm glad you found your way to WS. As a friend of one of the suspected key players, be forewarned...you are going to be very busy answering a lot of questions :)

Again welcome! Have a good day all, I have an errand to run :)

[elepher50]

yeah i believe its a blackberry he owns.

Thanks wendell, when you were hanging out with MR were there any favorite - and excuse me but I am going to be quite frank - any favorite drinking/snorting places off the beaten path so to speak where it would be very much out of the public view. Also, if you can give a general area of where you were hanging out with MR - London, Drayton, Kitchener, Woodstock would be helpful as well.

[elepher50]

Welcome Wendell. I'm glad you found your way to WS. As a friend of one of the suspected key players, be forewarned...you are going to be very busy answering a lot of questions :)

Again welcome! Have a good day all, I have an errand to run :)

LOL .. not from me Kat - I wouldn't even think of it.:)

[ChaChaCha]

thanks chachacha, i have realized this is a fair board which is why i am willing to post here... i don't know much, what i do know tho, the cops now know as i've had to interviews with them since the arrest...

i call myself switzerland right now, as in i'm trying to remain neutral on if he did or didn't. over the past year we haven't hung out as much as we used to, but everytime i have seen him.. he's been the same old mike...

as for the car questions... i have seen the car before april 8th, but that was a long time ago... after he started painting it, i think i rode in it once, was soo embarrased by the looks people would give that anytime we hung out afterwards i would drive (you've all seen the pictures so i'm sure you can agree!!! and trust me on this one, right now it looks much better then it did.. which says a lot for how it used to look)

however it did have a backseat, i just can't tell you how long ago it was that i was actually in it.. but we did see it in early may and comment on the fact that it had no backseat or carpet in the trunk...

I like the sound of that... "same old Mike". It sounds as though you really liked the guy and hanging out with him. I am howling that you didn't like riding with him though!

[cdnDAD]

wendell, WELCOME I'm glad to see you confirm some things I had assumed in regards to the painting of his car. I have a question that I know will only be your opinion but never the less, I'd like to know.

Did Mike seem different like nervous or strange after april 8th?

also what kind of home life did Mike have that your aware of..

again welcome and I believe your about to become a busy person with questions.. lol