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View Full Version : Evening of June 15/morning of June 16


Micheline
05-27-2009, 10:54 PM
Suppose George did not see Casey and Caylee leaving that morning, that Cindy did not tuck them in the previous night, that there was animosity between all of them due to the stealing from the GGF.

Would then both Cindy and George not be afraid when they gave their statements about that that Casey would contradict them?
Would they not be afraid that Casey besides the nanny version would mention the alleged fight between her and her mother and how she went asleep angry, how she did not say a word to/did not see her father the next morning?

They could not speak to Casey they could not know what she would or wouldn't say, and if she were to inform the police about a hostile situation at the house, then that would make Cindy and George look like liars.

If Cindy and Casey yelled at each others in such a way that the neighbors overheard it, if maybe due to the consternation the previous night the same neighbor watched who was driving away and saw Casey driving away the same evening/next morning, how would that make Cindy and George look considering the circumstances?

I am not getting Casey not addressing the fight with her mother nor saying anything about her father the next morning, if it happened the way her parents said she could tell the same story, just another day all fine at home, kisses and hugs to my father, my mother tucked me in the previous night etc.

Was it simply a coincidence that Casey never addressed any of the circumstances of the previous night and that morning, or did Cindy and George count on it that Casey would not say anything about it and they could fill it in as they desired?

cecybeans
05-27-2009, 11:04 PM
Since KC arrived home at about 2 am on July 16th, after her little LE wild goose chase, and did not leave for her "Universal Tour" with LE until about 8 something the next morning, I'm assuming the family was probably up all that night together and had enough time (5 or 6 hours) to coordinate and corroborate with KC what would later be said in their interviews to LE.

Micheline
05-27-2009, 11:13 PM
Since KC arrived home at about 2 am on July 16th, after her little LE wild goose chase, and did not leave for her "Universal Tour" with LE until about 8 something the next morning, I'm assuming the family was probably up all that night together and had enough time (5 or 6 hours) to coordinate and corroborate with KC what would later be said in their interviews to LE.

I think so too looking back, but at that moment Cindy and George believed the Nanny-kidnapping version, so why would there be a need to have matching stories of that night/morning the previous month, it would not be of any importance.
They just found out Caylee was missing for 31 days, kidnapped, why make an effort to have matching stories of the night of June 15 and morning of June 16?

Besides that, there was no guarantee if they talked this through with Casey (but why would they, better go look for ZFG) that she would stick with that story, and there would/could be neighbors to support Casey's version if the real version was other then what Cindy and George told.

azwriter
05-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Since KC arrived home at about 2 am on July 16th, after her little LE wild goose chase, and did not leave for her "Universal Tour" with LE until about 8 something the next morning, I'm assuming the family was probably up all that night together and had enough time (5 or 6 hours) to coordinate and corroborate with KC what would later be said in their interviews to LE.

ceybeans, this is a very good explaination. I'm sure the three of them had their heads together quite a bit to help make sure their stories match.
However, I think KC probably told her brother about the fight with her mom. Certainly Cindy believed she had a very good reason to go after Casey with the information that she stole from the Cindy's mom and dad's accounts. How embarassing that must have been for Cindy knowing that her daughter had struck again.
I do believe this family did a lot of arguing and fighting and hid it as best they could from others inside and outside the family.
jmo

aafromaa
05-28-2009, 03:14 AM
IMHO, the A's were not involved in any covering up of anything in the first days that Caylee was reported missing. I don't think they were matching stories with KC though she may have copied some of the things they said to LE.

I don't know whether CA & KC had a fight the night of 6/15 or not but there are two reasons that it might not have been mentioned by anyone early on.

1) Initially they all were using the date of 6/9 as the last time GA saw Caylee and 6/8 as the last time CA saw her. Why would they talk about the events of the 15th?

2) My guess is it wasn't all that unusual for there to be fighting between CA & KC so when any of the A's say anything about it being like any "normal day" they are referring to their "normal" - and since a fight on the 15th might have been a "normal" fairly frequent occurance then it wouldn't have stuck out in their minds as something they needed to tell LE when trying to give info to help find their missing granddaughter.

(Also, I think if there was a fight that it probably took place before GA got home from work so he might not have known anything about it that night.)

I do think that if there was a fight on 6/15, that it did likely stick out in KC's mind - and that she might have avoided mentioning it because it might look bad to LE.

I also think that once the fight was mentioned by the neighbor, everyone could recall the fight - CA the actual fight & GA what he was told about the fight by CA the next day or the day after or whenever but I'm sure it was discussed. Again, in the early days, I don't think that CA & GA were trying to cover up, but I do believe they were overwhelmed by fear of what had happened to their granddaughter and what role their daughter had in her disappearance. I'm sure that they felt guilty for many of their own actions during the time leading up to Caylee's disappearance and I don't think they could admit to anyone that there was this fight that may have contributed to what happened to her.

And now? I'm really not sure. Are they in denial? Has CA blocked that out of her mind because she cannot face the possibility that any of her actions might have contributed to Caylee's death in any way? Would that explain the anger displayed at the very question of a fight? Or does she just not want to be a part of convicting KC? Or is she now consciously trying to cover for KC? Or did the fight on the 15th really not take place?

And as for whether GA saw Caylee on the 16th, I do not know but am beginning to doubt it. However, I do not think he is lying about the last time he saw Caylee, I just think he has his dates wrong and he may be talking about when he saw them on the 9th as originally reported to LE instead but when the father's day video came out, he just concluded that he must have seen them on the 16th instead.

Micheline
05-28-2009, 01:42 PM
IMHO, the A's were not involved in any covering up of anything in the first days that Caylee was reported missing. I don't think they were matching stories with KC though she may have copied some of the things they said to LE.

I don't know whether CA & KC had a fight the night of 6/15 or not but there are two reasons that it might not have been mentioned by anyone early on.

1) Initially they all were using the date of 6/9 as the last time GA saw Caylee and 6/8 as the last time CA saw her. Why would they talk about the events of the 15th?

(snipped a little by me)

If they were mistaken about the date then would not the night of the argument and the morning George saw them leaving in their minds be evening of June 8 morning of June 9?
It would be relevant since it would be when they last saw Caylee alive.

2) My guess is it wasn't all that unusual for there to be fighting between CA & KC so when any of the A's say anything about it being like any "normal day" they are referring to their "normal" - and since a fight on the 15th might have been a "normal" fairly frequent occurance then it wouldn't have stuck out in their minds as something they needed to tell LE when trying to give info to help find their missing granddaughter.

I agree it might have occured ofthen there being an argument, this time it was about Casey stealing money from the grandfather and things acc to Lee/Padilla got heated that does not equal tucking them both in.
I find it strange that the alleged argument was kept silent, but I find it even more strange that if it was kept silent it maybe was in agreement with Casey since if not it would be possible she would tell a whole other story about that evening.
I cannot see the grandparents having just heard Caylee was missing for a month, kidnapped, not seen by anyone for all this time that they would bother to negociate with Casey about events of June 15/16 (if they did).

(Also, I think if there was a fight that it probably took place before GA got home from work so he might not have known anything about it that night.)

I do think that if there was a fight on 6/15, that it did likely stick out in KC's mind - and that she might have avoided mentioning it because it might look bad to LE.

I agree she might have avoided it, but she would not know if her parents would avoud it too and the other way around.

aafromaa
05-28-2009, 04:17 PM
Micheline, I see your points but cannot agree that there was any intentional cover-up early on. I know that many do not have a very high opinion of the A's and that my view of their actions and attitudes is in the minority, so , please, don't everyone jump on me at once...

I think that GA knew the moment he opened the car at the tow yard (and if not there, then certainly when he came home later that evening and KC was there without Caylee) that his granddaughter was deceased and that KC had a hand in it. I think that CA suspected it from the moment she found out from AH that KC was at TL's and then especially when KC refused to take her to Caylee. I don't think either GA or CA set out at those moments to "help KC get off" but that they began to grasp at straws for any glimmer of hope. I think this included believing parts of what KC said (even parts that they knew were lies before 7/15) and then CA in desparation began to start all that KC "code" stuff and began to lash out at LE for saying Caylee was dead and that KC did it. (I also think this was more the result of CA not being ready to hear/accept that Caylee was gone than that she wanted to see KC get away with it. LE was forcing her to face something horrible and she couldn't do it so she began to defend KC instead.)

Once the remains were found, CA had to accept that Caylee was gone but still cannot accept that KC did it. I do think that CA is in a place now where she wants to know what happened BUT she is also in that place that says LE has to PROVE that KC did it & please don't use anything I've said to put that noose around my daughter's neck and please don't make me face the possibility that anything I said or did could have contributed in any way to Caylee's death.

I think GA has known all along and even though some of his later comments have been to the contrary, I don't think he ever really doubted KC was responsible for whatever happened to Caylee - not from the moment he said to LE, "if I've lost my granddaughter, then I've lost my daughter too." The officer told him that he hadn't lost KC because even if she were in jail, she was still here and I think that GA has been trying to figure out how to avoid losing his daughter ever since and trying to allow CA to come to that point as well. And that he also is desperately hoping nothing he said will be used to put the noose around his daughter's neck.

I don't think either of them want to see KC get away with killing Caylee, but I think they are still holding out hope that it was some kind of accident. I think if KC came out with some story about an accident now and that she hid Caylee's body and told all those lies because she was too scared to admit that a horrible accident happened, that GA & CA would believe it. But I also think that deep down they would be grateful that a jury won't and that KC will be convicted regardless of what stories she & JB may come up with in the meantime.

I'm not saying that the A's have always been truthful and helpful to LE's investigation but I do think they were providing the best information they could early on. Please remember that they hadn't seen Caylee in a month before questions were being asked and they didn't know that the last time they saw her would be the last time they saw her. What I mean by that is that when you lose someone you love and you know it that day then you remember all the details of your last time with them but you might not have that kind of recollection if you don't find out for a month that you'll never see them again.

I last saw my brother about a month before he was killed in a motorcycle wreck. We lived in separate states. I can't tell you what he was wearing the last time I saw him. I can't tell you the exact day or date or time of day or what we talked about. I know that I was in town visiting my mom for a few days and he came by on more than one of them and we spent a little time together but that's it. Yet, I could still tell you about every minute of the entire day of the Saturday I got the phone call about his accident and knew that I would never see him again (and it's been 4 years ago now). And I can tell you that on that day, I tried to recall which day I last saw him or what he was wearing or what we talked about and I couldn't because it was just a "normal" visit.

My point is that there was nothing about the last time that either GA or CA saw Caylee that let them know it was the last time and nothing so unusual about those days that they could recall them precisely a month later. And if you listen to their early interviews and statements, there is no evidence that they were conspiring with KC to cover for her. There is some confusion over what's true and what's not and certainly the inability to conceive that Caylee may be dead and that KC had anything to do with it but they are answering questions and offering any information they can think of to try to help. I believe this changed when their hope began to fade and their grief and guilt and disbelief came out as defense of KC and defiance of LE. Dare I use the term - "ugly coping" ?

As for KC avoiding discussing the "fight" and not knowing that her parents wouldn't mention it... What can I say? This is the same KC that lied about an office at Universal to the point of taking LE down the hall before admitting she didn't have an office there. There appears to be no limit to how far she will take a story and no fear of someone calling her on it.

Micheline
05-28-2009, 07:49 PM
aafromaa I can only say that I have always felt the way you feel about Cindy and George, I can see their despair in their meetings with Casey in jail and have felt sorry for them ever since early on. I just agree with everything you said. I never even doubted their versions of June 15/16.

It was just last night that I suddenly felt there was something strange about it, and I am not sure how to explain that without suggesting them conspiring to cover for Casey. I will try to explain better.

I can understand that Cindy did not want to mention the allegedly heated argument between her and Casey (per Lee/Padilla/neighbors) I can even understand that Cindy may feel awful about that fight with the idea/fear alone that it may have led to things that happened the next evening/day.
(but at that point she did not know what had happened)
I also understand George saying Casey leaving for work that morning and him saying bye to her and Caylee even if he knew/thought she did not have a job maybe he felt uncomfortable to tell that to LE.

It always seems logical Cindy would avoid the fight subject and in a way I have felt George would tell they left like any other day, all fine maybe also to avoid telling there had been a fight the prior evening.

But last night I thought, if there was a fight which got out of hand as per Lee/Padilla/neighbors, and the next morning things were not fine as usual etc, yet Cindy and George claiming all was fine, if only to avoid a sensitive subject, then how could they expect the subject being avoided if there was the possibility Casey would bring it up?
They were talking to LE, giving statements I think they even raised their hands at the end of their statements.

If LE knew about the alleged fight on the evening of June 15 they may have asked Casey questions about it, I mean had they known Casey had stolen from her grandfather and things got heated that evening, and the next day Casey and Caylee leave the house to never return, that would have been important information for LE.


The only way to avoid it being mentioned was if Casey would not bring it up either, and then I thought then they would have had to talk about that with Casey the night of July 15, and that made me feel uncomfortable.
Then looking at the early statements, even if Casey had told during the 911 call she had not seen her daughter in 31 days, all seemed to agree that Cindy and George last saw Caylee June 8-9, even Casey claimed June 9 instead of her initial 31 days claim so it seems the dates of occurrences were talked about that evening?
I know that June 9 thing can be explained due to confusion, and Casey following the memory of her parents (but Cindy said in the 911 call and George also told the tow-guy to not have seen their grandchild in a month (31 days) so all seemed to know it exactly had been a month yet agreed on June 9, or were confused).

The combination of these two things suddenly made me think both in a way could have been to avoid talking about the evening of June 15, maybe saying all was fine was just because Cindy felt uncomfortable about it, and June 9 was an incorrect memory, but still to tell it this way as in avoiding the fight subject would require Casey would not bring it up either.
But so very early on even if they feared what had happened, they did not know and did not want to know because it would be to awful to even consider, I too believe they may have wanted to believe the nanny story and Caylee still being alive or maybe feared there had been an accident, but then there would be no need to not bring up that evening the fight, to maybe even talk about it with Casey (if they did)

Wanted to add, so sorry for what happened to your brother, that is so very sad. :rose:

carrie
05-29-2009, 10:03 AM
I suppose it's possible that Baez and BC have carried info and instructions back and forth from KC and George and Cindy. I.e. "Don't talk about this, don't mention that, etc." Not saying I believe that has occurred, just saying it's possible.

aafromaa
05-29-2009, 11:47 AM
aafromaa I can only say that I have always felt the way you feel about Cindy and George, I can see their despair in their meetings with Casey in jail and have felt sorry for them ever since early on. I just agree with everything you said. I never even doubted their versions of June 15/16.

It was just last night that I suddenly felt there was something strange about it, and I am not sure how to explain that without suggesting them conspiring to cover for Casey. I will try to explain better.

I can understand that Cindy did not want to mention the allegedly heated argument between her and Casey (per Lee/Padilla/neighbors) I can even understand that Cindy may feel awful about that fight with the idea/fear alone that it may have led to things that happened the next evening/day.
(but at that point she did not know what had happened)
I also understand George saying Casey leaving for work that morning and him saying bye to her and Caylee even if he knew/thought she did not have a job maybe he felt uncomfortable to tell that to LE.

It always seems logical Cindy would avoid the fight subject and in a way I have felt George would tell they left like any other day, all fine maybe also to avoid telling there had been a fight the prior evening.

But last night I thought, if there was a fight which got out of hand as per Lee/Padilla/neighbors, and the next morning things were not fine as usual etc, yet Cindy and George claiming all was fine, if only to avoid a sensitive subject, then how could they expect the subject being avoided if there was the possibility Casey would bring it up?
They were talking to LE, giving statements I think they even raised their hands at the end of their statements.

If LE knew about the alleged fight on the evening of June 15 they may have asked Casey questions about it, I mean had they known Casey had stolen from her grandfather and things got heated that evening, and the next day Casey and Caylee leave the house to never return, that would have been important information for LE.


The only way to avoid it being mentioned was if Casey would not bring it up either, and then I thought then they would have had to talk about that with Casey the night of July 15, and that made me feel uncomfortable.
Then looking at the early statements, even if Casey had told during the 911 call she had not seen her daughter in 31 days, all seemed to agree that Cindy and George last saw Caylee June 8-9, even Casey claimed June 9 instead of her initial 31 days claim so it seems the dates of occurrences were talked about that evening?
I know that June 9 thing can be explained due to confusion, and Casey following the memory of her parents (but Cindy said in the 911 call and George also told the tow-guy to not have seen their grandchild in a month (31 days) so all seemed to know it exactly had been a month yet agreed on June 9, or were confused).

The combination of these two things suddenly made me think both in a way could have been to avoid talking about the evening of June 15, maybe saying all was fine was just because Cindy felt uncomfortable about it, and June 9 was an incorrect memory, but still to tell it this way as in avoiding the fight subject would require Casey would not bring it up either.
But so very early on even if they feared what had happened, they did not know and did not want to know because it would be to awful to even consider, I too believe they may have wanted to believe the nanny story and Caylee still being alive or maybe feared there had been an accident, but then there would be no need to not bring up that evening the fight, to maybe even talk about it with Casey (if they did)

Wanted to add, so sorry for what happened to your brother, that is so very sad. :rose:
Micheline, thank you for sharing your thought process on this. I agree that later on there may have been a conscious effort not to divulge certain things but I don't think it was intentional in the first days of the investigation - just that it didn't occur to them that the fight was the same night as the last night CA saw Caylee because fights were common.

And when I say that I think there may have been a conscious effort not to divulge certain things later on, I should clarify that I don't think GA & CA are consciously trying to cover up a murder. I just think they view it as "don't air our dirty laundry in public" because of the " please don't use me to put the noose around my daughter's neck" attitude that I mentioned before. Unfortunately, I do think that in recent depos and such they have crossed the line between avoiding discussing things and actually made false statements under oath. (Even now my heart goes out to them so much for their anguish that I could not make myself write the word "lied" in that sentence.)

I'll also admit that I've had a harder time since their comments at the memorial and in the depos understanding their actions and attitudes and continuing to believe they are NOT intentionally trying to cover for KC. But I keep reminding myself that they are living a horrible horrible nightmare and therefore I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives even when I cannot do so regarding their actions.

(And thank you for the condolences regarding my brother. I miss him still.)

Gma Kat
07-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Micheline, I see your points but cannot agree that there was any intentional cover-up early on. I know that many do not have a very high opinion of the A's and that my view of their actions and attitudes is in the minority, so , please, don't everyone jump on me at once...

I think that GA knew the moment he opened the car at the tow yard (and if not there, then certainly when he came home later that evening and KC was there without Caylee) that his granddaughter was deceased and that KC had a hand in it. I think that CA suspected it from the moment she found out from AH that KC was at TL's and then especially when KC refused to take her to Caylee. I don't think either GA or CA set out at those moments to "help KC get off" but that they began to grasp at straws for any glimmer of hope. I think this included believing parts of what KC said (even parts that they knew were lies before 7/15) and then CA in desparation began to start all that KC "code" stuff and began to lash out at LE for saying Caylee was dead and that KC did it. (I also think this was more the result of CA not being ready to hear/accept that Caylee was gone than that she wanted to see KC get away with it. LE was forcing her to face something horrible and she couldn't do it so she began to defend KC instead.)

Once the remains were found, CA had to accept that Caylee was gone but still cannot accept that KC did it. I do think that CA is in a place now where she wants to know what happened BUT she is also in that place that says LE has to PROVE that KC did it & please don't use anything I've said to put that noose around my daughter's neck and please don't make me face the possibility that anything I said or did could have contributed in any way to Caylee's death.

I think GA has known all along and even though some of his later comments have been to the contrary, I don't think he ever really doubted KC was responsible for whatever happened to Caylee - not from the moment he said to LE, "if I've lost my granddaughter, then I've lost my daughter too." The officer told him that he hadn't lost KC because even if she were in jail, she was still here and I think that GA has been trying to figure out how to avoid losing his daughter ever since and trying to allow CA to come to that point as well. And that he also is desperately hoping nothing he said will be used to put the noose around his daughter's neck.

I don't think either of them want to see KC get away with killing Caylee, but I think they are still holding out hope that it was some kind of accident. I think if KC came out with some story about an accident now and that she hid Caylee's body and told all those lies because she was too scared to admit that a horrible accident happened, that GA & CA would believe it. But I also think that deep down they would be grateful that a jury won't and that KC will be convicted regardless of what stories she & JB may come up with in the meantime.

I'm not saying that the A's have always been truthful and helpful to LE's investigation but I do think they were providing the best information they could early on. Please remember that they hadn't seen Caylee in a month before questions were being asked and they didn't know that the last time they saw her would be the last time they saw her. What I mean by that is that when you lose someone you love and you know it that day then you remember all the details of your last time with them but you might not have that kind of recollection if you don't find out for a month that you'll never see them again.

I last saw my brother about a month before he was killed in a motorcycle wreck. We lived in separate states. I can't tell you what he was wearing the last time I saw him. I can't tell you the exact day or date or time of day or what we talked about. I know that I was in town visiting my mom for a few days and he came by on more than one of them and we spent a little time together but that's it. Yet, I could still tell you about every minute of the entire day of the Saturday I got the phone call about his accident and knew that I would never see him again (and it's been 4 years ago now). And I can tell you that on that day, I tried to recall which day I last saw him or what he was wearing or what we talked about and I couldn't because it was just a "normal" visit.

My point is that there was nothing about the last time that either GA or CA saw Caylee that let them know it was the last time and nothing so unusual about those days that they could recall them precisely a month later. And if you listen to their early interviews and statements, there is no evidence that they were conspiring with KC to cover for her. There is some confusion over what's true and what's not and certainly the inability to conceive that Caylee may be dead and that KC had anything to do with it but they are answering questions and offering any information they can think of to try to help. I believe this changed when their hope began to fade and their grief and guilt and disbelief came out as defense of KC and defiance of LE. Dare I use the term - "ugly coping" ?

As for KC avoiding discussing the "fight" and not knowing that her parents wouldn't mention it... What can I say? This is the same KC that lied about an office at Universal to the point of taking LE down the hall before admitting she didn't have an office there. There appears to be no limit to how far she will take a story and no fear of someone calling her on it.

Such a well thought out post. thank you. I keep going back to the mixed up dates that Caylee was last seen. Originally the 6/8 date and 6/9 dates came up. My DH and I were trying to figure out something that happened to us approximately 4 weeks ago. We spent about a half hour trying to figure out which "date" we did something on. We could remember everything about the day, but not which "date" it occurred on. We recreated events that we knew occurred before, adn which "dates" we knew those events were held. we did the same for events we knew occurred "after" and the "dates" those events occurred. So I guess what I am saying is I have never been that concerned abuot the mix up of those dates early on. I can understand how and why it happens, even for something as serious as this case for the reasons you so excellently explained.

Amil
01-05-2010, 03:09 AM
Try to imagine being in CA shoes. After Caylee's first week gone, she would have been tearing that bedroom apart looking for clues of KCs whereabouts. She would have known that first week that nothing of Caylee's was with her. She had the whole week of July 4 off. By July 3 she must have been putting 2 & 2 together, especially when she got home from Universal and saw she'd been taken for a fool. She knew KC had been in the house while she was at Universal and she knew that she hadn't taken anything for Caylee again. By then she had read KC's diary and found the air mattress and knew Caylee's clothes were all at home. It is difficult for me to comprehend how she responded to all those clues by trying to befriend KC on myspace and writing the My Caylee is Missing when CA's anger must have been over the top.

InspectorGadget
01-05-2010, 07:13 AM
IMHO, the A's were not involved in any covering up of anything in the first days that Caylee was reported missing. I don't think they were matching stories with KC though she may have copied some of the things they said to LE.

I don't know whether CA & KC had a fight the night of 6/15 or not but there are two reasons that it might not have been mentioned by anyone early on.

1) Initially they all were using the date of 6/9 as the last time GA saw Caylee and 6/8 as the last time CA saw her. Why would they talk about the events of the 15th?

2) My guess is it wasn't all that unusual for there to be fighting between CA & KC so when any of the A's say anything about it being like any "normal day" they are referring to their "normal" - and since a fight on the 15th might have been a "normal" fairly frequent occurance then it wouldn't have stuck out in their minds as something they needed to tell LE when trying to give info to help find their missing granddaughter.

(Also, I think if there was a fight that it probably took place before GA got home from work so he might not have known anything about it that night.)

I do think that if there was a fight on 6/15, that it did likely stick out in KC's mind - and that she might have avoided mentioning it because it might look bad to LE.

I also think that once the fight was mentioned by the neighbor, everyone could recall the fight - CA the actual fight & GA what he was told about the fight by CA the next day or the day after or whenever but I'm sure it was discussed. Again, in the early days, I don't think that CA & GA were trying to cover up, but I do believe they were overwhelmed by fear of what had happened to their granddaughter and what role their daughter had in her disappearance. I'm sure that they felt guilty for many of their own actions during the time leading up to Caylee's disappearance and I don't think they could admit to anyone that there was this fight that may have contributed to what happened to her.

And now? I'm really not sure. Are they in denial? Has CA blocked that out of her mind because she cannot face the possibility that any of her actions might have contributed to Caylee's death in any way? Would that explain the anger displayed at the very question of a fight? Or does she just not want to be a part of convicting KC? Or is she now consciously trying to cover for KC? Or did the fight on the 15th really not take place?

And as for whether GA saw Caylee on the 16th, I do not know but am beginning to doubt it. However, I do not think he is lying about the last time he saw Caylee, I just think he has his dates wrong and he may be talking about when he saw them on the 9th as originally reported to LE instead but when the father's day video came out, he just concluded that he must have seen them on the 16th instead.

Has any evidence of a fight on 15th June been released? I know Jesse said that Lee told him there had been a fight, but that would be hearsay & inadmissable.

InspectorGadget
01-05-2010, 07:47 AM
Micheline, I see your points but cannot agree that there was any intentional cover-up early on. I know that many do not have a very high opinion of the A's and that my view of their actions and attitudes is in the minority, so , please, don't everyone jump on me at once...

I think that GA knew the moment he opened the car at the tow yard (and if not there, then certainly when he came home later that evening and KC was there without Caylee) that his granddaughter was deceased and that KC had a hand in it. I think that CA suspected it from the moment she found out from AH that KC was at TL's and then especially when KC refused to take her to Caylee. I don't think either GA or CA set out at those moments to "help KC get off" but that they began to grasp at straws for any glimmer of hope. I think this included believing parts of what KC said (even parts that they knew were lies before 7/15) and then CA in desparation began to start all that KC "code" stuff and began to lash out at LE for saying Caylee was dead and that KC did it. (I also think this was more the result of CA not being ready to hear/accept that Caylee was gone than that she wanted to see KC get away with it. LE was forcing her to face something horrible and she couldn't do it so she began to defend KC instead.)

Once the remains were found, CA had to accept that Caylee was gone but still cannot accept that KC did it. I do think that CA is in a place now where she wants to know what happened BUT she is also in that place that says LE has to PROVE that KC did it & please don't use anything I've said to put that noose around my daughter's neck and please don't make me face the possibility that anything I said or did could have contributed in any way to Caylee's death.

I think GA has known all along and even though some of his later comments have been to the contrary, I don't think he ever really doubted KC was responsible for whatever happened to Caylee - not from the moment he said to LE, "if I've lost my granddaughter, then I've lost my daughter too." The officer told him that he hadn't lost KC because even if she were in jail, she was still here and I think that GA has been trying to figure out how to avoid losing his daughter ever since and trying to allow CA to come to that point as well. And that he also is desperately hoping nothing he said will be used to put the noose around his daughter's neck.

I don't think either of them want to see KC get away with killing Caylee, but I think they are still holding out hope that it was some kind of accident. I think if KC came out with some story about an accident now and that she hid Caylee's body and told all those lies because she was too scared to admit that a horrible accident happened, that GA & CA would believe it. But I also think that deep down they would be grateful that a jury won't and that KC will be convicted regardless of what stories she & JB may come up with in the meantime.

I'm not saying that the A's have always been truthful and helpful to LE's investigation but I do think they were providing the best information they could early on. Please remember that they hadn't seen Caylee in a month before questions were being asked and they didn't know that the last time they saw her would be the last time they saw her. What I mean by that is that when you lose someone you love and you know it that day then you remember all the details of your last time with them but you might not have that kind of recollection if you don't find out for a month that you'll never see them again.

I last saw my brother about a month before he was killed in a motorcycle wreck. We lived in separate states. I can't tell you what he was wearing the last time I saw him. I can't tell you the exact day or date or time of day or what we talked about. I know that I was in town visiting my mom for a few days and he came by on more than one of them and we spent a little time together but that's it. Yet, I could still tell you about every minute of the entire day of the Saturday I got the phone call about his accident and knew that I would never see him again (and it's been 4 years ago now). And I can tell you that on that day, I tried to recall which day I last saw him or what he was wearing or what we talked about and I couldn't because it was just a "normal" visit.

My point is that there was nothing about the last time that either GA or CA saw Caylee that let them know it was the last time and nothing so unusual about those days that they could recall them precisely a month later. And if you listen to their early interviews and statements, there is no evidence that they were conspiring with KC to cover for her. There is some confusion over what's true and what's not and certainly the inability to conceive that Caylee may be dead and that KC had anything to do with it but they are answering questions and offering any information they can think of to try to help. I believe this changed when their hope began to fade and their grief and guilt and disbelief came out as defense of KC and defiance of LE. Dare I use the term - "ugly coping" ?

As for KC avoiding discussing the "fight" and not knowing that her parents wouldn't mention it... What can I say? This is the same KC that lied about an office at Universal to the point of taking LE down the hall before admitting she didn't have an office there. There appears to be no limit to how far she will take a story and no fear of someone calling her on it.

I agree. Cindy had been under extreme stress what with her father having a stroke, her daughter messing her around for over a month, keeping up a full-time job, running her house, having to go and collect the car, and being interviewed by the police. On top of all that she had to drive to Mt. Dora and back to forewarn her parents of the situation. It was inadvisable of OCSO to question AP in the nursing home considering it was highly unlikely that he could give them any useful information.

They knew how much stress Cindy had been under and that she was talking to the media. They could have anticipated her reaction. If they had done that they would have continued to have her co-operation at least as far as the timeline is concerned. I believe Cindy was sincere in that she believed the nanny story and and expected the police to focus on finding Caylee. OCSO had no evidence that Caylee was deceased and Cindy believed that they should have ignored Casey's lies and treated it as they would any other missing person case.

I can also understand OCSO's side, that after 31 days it is, statistically speaking, unlikely that a missing child will be found alive. From their point of view, it is quite possible that the mother can be guilty of killing her own child and they had reason to believe that was what had happened here. But to Cindy, and most of the rest of us, it is unthinkable that our own child could do such a thing. I also feel that OCSO are short of resources when you look at the dates of the early interviews.

InspectorGadget
01-05-2010, 08:00 AM
Micheline, thank you for sharing your thought process on this. I agree that later on there may have been a conscious effort not to divulge certain things but I don't think it was intentional in the first days of the investigation - just that it didn't occur to them that the fight was the same night as the last night CA saw Caylee because fights were common.

And when I say that I think there may have been a conscious effort not to divulge certain things later on, I should clarify that I don't think GA & CA are consciously trying to cover up a murder. I just think they view it as "don't air our dirty laundry in public" because of the " please don't use me to put the noose around my daughter's neck" attitude that I mentioned before. Unfortunately, I do think that in recent depos and such they have crossed the line between avoiding discussing things and actually made false statements under oath. (Even now my heart goes out to them so much for their anguish that I could not make myself write the word "lied" in that sentence.)

I'll also admit that I've had a harder time since their comments at the memorial and in the depos understanding their actions and attitudes and continuing to believe they are NOT intentionally trying to cover for KC. But I keep reminding myself that they are living a horrible horrible nightmare and therefore I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives even when I cannot do so regarding their actions.

(And thank you for the condolences regarding my brother. I miss him still.)


They were certainly very angry in the depositions for the Zenaida case. Nobody is asking who is paying Zenaida's legal fees. Nobody identified that particular Zenaida as a kidnapper. I will be interested to find out what date Zenaida says that she was at sawgrass. Does anybody know what is happening with this other case?

InspectorGadget
01-05-2010, 08:23 AM
I think that GA knew the moment he opened the car at the tow yard (and if not there, then certainly when he came home later that evening and KC was there without Caylee) that his grand-daughter was deceased and that KC had a hand in it.

I don't think he knew, but that he feared the worst.

TallyHo
01-05-2010, 12:02 PM
I think this (fight on June 15th) could have been what Casey was referring to when she said to George and Cindy during one of the jailhouse interviews - "oh don't worry, I haven't said anything".

BeanE
01-05-2010, 10:42 PM
I don't think he knew, but that he feared the worst.

Knew, not feared:

George Anthony: I, I, I believe that there's something dead back there. And I hate to say the word human.


http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/110608georgeanthony/1/lg/48-2008-CF-015606-O_CASEY_ANTHONY_PG._1733-1803_Page_22.htm

BeanE
01-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Has any evidence of a fight on 15th June been released? I know Jesse said that Lee told him there had been a fight, but that would be hearsay & inadmissable.

Mark Furman in his report that Cindy and George told him about the fight.

And the neighbor's statement.

Lemme know if you'd the links.

Baxter
01-05-2010, 11:07 PM
I agree. Cindy had been under extreme stress what with her father having a stroke, her daughter messing her around for over a month, keeping up a full-time job, running her house, having to go and collect the car, and being interviewed by the police. On top of all that she had to drive to Mt. Dora and back to forewarn her parents of the situation. It was inadvisable of OCSO to question AP in the nursing home considering it was highly unlikely that he could give them any useful information.

They knew how much stress Cindy had been under and that she was talking to the media. They could have anticipated her reaction. If they had done that they would have continued to have her co-operation at least as far as the timeline is concerned. I believe Cindy was sincere in that she believed the nanny story and and expected the police to focus on finding Caylee. OCSO had no evidence that Caylee was deceased and Cindy believed that they should have ignored Casey's lies and treated it as they would any other missing person case.

I can also understand OCSO's side, that after 31 days it is, statistically speaking, unlikely that a missing child will be found alive. From their point of view, it is quite possible that the mother can be guilty of killing her own child and they had reason to believe that was what had happened here. But to Cindy, and most of the rest of us, it is unthinkable that our own child could do such a thing. I also feel that OCSO are short of resources when you look at the dates of the early interviews.

BBM

After everyone in the Anthony family got the date wrong,they had to go the nursing home and confirm the correct date. They can't cater to Cindy's wishes. Too bad for her, the hearing was coming up and they needed this information. Cindy acted liked a spoiled child ie: if you do this I will not cooperate with you. Did she really want to find Caylee?

InspectorGadget
01-10-2010, 07:56 AM
BBM

After everyone in the Anthony family got the date wrong,they had to go the nursing home and confirm the correct date. They can't cater to Cindy's wishes. Too bad for her, the hearing was coming up and they needed this information. Cindy acted liked a spoiled child ie: if you do this I will not cooperate with you. Did she really want to find Caylee?

Oh I agree, they had to go to the nursing home to verify the dates, absolutely.

But Cindy's father had suffered from a stroke and had not been told Caylee was missing. Cindy was incensed that they visited him. See page 2556 the document I have is redacted.

"API Roy met face to face with Alexander Plesea at his current residence located at (the address, plus 5 lines of text redacted) the allegations was addressed with Mr. Plesea. He was unaware of the situation."

Being confronted by a police officer was likely distressing for him and could have affected his health.

InspectorGadget
01-10-2010, 08:07 AM
Knew, not feared:

George Anthony: I, I, I believe that there's something dead back there. And I hate to say the word human.


http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/110608georgeanthony/1/lg/48-2008-CF-015606-O_CASEY_ANTHONY_PG._1733-1803_Page_22.htm


Hi BeanE

Are you saying that he saw the body and if so is it your opinion that he had disposed of it?

In the quot above, George said he believed something dead was back there, not that he knew.

InspectorGadget
01-10-2010, 08:20 AM
Mark Furman in his report that Cindy and George told him about the fight.

And the neighbor's statement.

Lemme know if you'd the links.

Thanks BeanE,

I would appreciate the links.

I haven't got Mark Furman's report. Is he one of the detetives on the case?

I have Jean Couty's interview but I seem to have missed the statement of the neighbour who reported the fight on the night of 15th July.

TIA

BondJamesBond
01-10-2010, 09:07 AM
Thanks BeanE,

I would appreciate the links.

I haven't got Mark Furman's report. Is he one of the detetives on the case?

I have Jean Couty's interview but I seem to have missed the statement of the neighbour who reported the fight on the night of 15th July.

TIA

FWIW, IG, I just bumped the "Part Deux" thread regarding Cindy:Casey "fights" in the main forum here: June 15 Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight - Part Deux TEMP-MOVED from Timeline forum - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

30 pages of decent reading you might be interested in based on your posts. HTH.

BeanE
01-10-2010, 10:03 AM
Hi BeanE

Are you saying that he saw the body and if so is it your opinion that he had disposed of it?

In the quot above, George said he believed something dead was back there, not that he knew.

No, he did not see Caylee's body in the trunk. George smelled human decomp in the trunk, knew that Caylee was the only person missing and unaccounted for that could logically and reasonably be in the trunk of Casey's car, and knew (not feared as you stated) that the human decomp he smelled was his dead grandbaby Caylee.

George is not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but this one's easy to determine for anyone of even average intellect.

George absolutely did not dispose of Caylee's body - Casey did.

BeanE
01-10-2010, 10:10 AM
Thanks BeanE,

I would appreciate the links.

I haven't got Mark Furman's report. Is he one of the detetives on the case?

I have Jean Couty's interview but I seem to have missed the statement of the neighbour who reported the fight on the night of 15th July.

TIA


Mark Furman's report is discussed in the discovery document I posted here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Mark Fuhrman ???

ETA: and no, he is not, of course, a detective on this case. There are lists all over the internet of people related to this case, and what that relationship is. A Google for 'caylee anthony who's who' should readily lead you to a few.

InspectorGadget
01-24-2010, 09:36 AM
Mark Furman's report is discussed in the discovery document I posted here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Mark Fuhrman ??? (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4359994&postcount=45)

ETA: and no, he is not, of course, a detective on this case. There are lists all over the internet of people related to this case, and what that relationship is. A Google for 'caylee anthony who's who' should readily lead you to a few.

Hi BeanE

Thanks for the link. I thought I was pretty well up on who's who but I must have overlooked that!

I took your advice and googled it and I understand he is the same Mark Furhman from the OJ Simpson trial. If he isn't a detective any more, and he's not related to the case, what was he doing with the Anthony's? Is he writing a book about them? (I see he is now an author.)

I don't understand why OCSO interviewed him because he is not a witness in the case, but they obviously did because there it is in the report! Do you think they will list him as a witness later?

Do you know if there is an interview of one of the neighbours who claims to have heard a fight on 15th June, either in the documents or in the media videos?

kaRN
01-24-2010, 11:49 AM
I suppose it's possible that Baez and BC have carried info and instructions back and forth from KC and George and Cindy. I.e. "Don't talk about this, don't mention that, etc." Not saying I believe that has occurred, just saying it's possible.

I believe this is 'the don't worry I didn't say anthing' Casey states to Cindy in their first jail tape. Imagine innocent people worrying about what they can or cannot say to assist LE in finding their toddler. :banghead:

hornswoggled
01-25-2010, 10:07 AM
Since GA was ex LE, I don't see how he could help but instruct Casey on certain things she may be asked. I do believe that GA thinks she did something to cause Caylee's disappearance. That much comes through in his FBI interview. But he is still her dad and I feel sure that he instructed her on what to expect. He would have told her that they are looking to pin this on her, because her lack of reporting it makes her the number one suspect. He may have told her not to bring up the precipitating event - the big fight. It would raise suspicion. I believe that's why she was so adamant that she be able to meet alone with her dad when she was in jail. And GA was also adamant about meeting alone with Casey.

I feel that GA was her first line of defense, even before she got a lawyer. It just makes sense to me. He knew what was coming.

Just my own opinion.

Intermezzo
02-03-2010, 03:45 PM
Since GA was ex LE, I don't see how he could help but instruct Casey on certain things she may be asked. I do believe that GA thinks she did something to cause Caylee's disappearance. That much comes through in his FBI interview. But he is still her dad and I feel sure that he instructed her on what to expect. He would have told her that they are looking to pin this on her, because her lack of reporting it makes her the number one suspect. He may have told her not to bring up the precipitating event - the big fight. It would raise suspicion. I believe that's why she was so adamant that she be able to meet alone with her dad when she was in jail. And GA was also adamant about meeting alone with Casey.

I feel that GA was her first line of defense, even before she got a lawyer. It just makes sense to me. He knew what was coming.

Just my own opinion.

Interesting username.


You believe that the meeting was going to be about instructing Casey to withhold information, to deceive? To cheat them of information that may have helped not only her family but LE to locate her missing 2 year old daughter? In other words to hornswoggle.

And here I thought or speculated that the private meeting would have been all about finding Caylee..and nothing else. It just made sense to me.

I also thought George and Cindy soooo desperately wanted information from Casey to help them in their search to recover Caylee that they hoped to set up a private meeting. Afterall, they are(were) the grandparents of an innocent, helpless 2 year old girl and I belived wanted her found, no matter what. It just what made sense to me or perhaps we, myself included, have been hornswoggled by them?

Casey was already in jail, already had a lawyer when GA mentioned (IN the jail videos) about a private meeting, which I do not believe happened unless you can provide a link that it did.

But Hornswoggled you may be right, I do not know. The meeting may have been all about Casey, about Casey keeping quiet and nothing to do with providing accurate information that may have led them in locating Caylee.

But the above is just my own opinion

beach
03-13-2011, 05:58 PM
:bump:

Bittiness39
04-20-2011, 09:33 PM
Bumping this thanks to some help from ynotdivein...

I am now starting to believe that ICA left the house with Caylee on the evening of the 15th...after a huge family fight. I think that might explain some of the appearance of latent guilt we see with her parents...JMO. Also, I think a lot of the facts in the timeline support it. I was going to start a new thread but got some help in finding one that was better and more pertinent. I wonder what the SA's timeline is...

Baznme
04-21-2011, 08:46 AM
I believe this is 'the don't worry I didn't say anthing' Casey states to Cindy in their first jail tape. Imagine innocent people worrying about what they can or cannot say to assist LE in finding their toddler. :banghead:

I honestly believe that KC's comment to her parents "don't worry, I haven't said anything" is no more than a reassurance to CA and GA that she is following their instruction to not speak to anyone other than her attorney about her case. She had mentioned that she had met with someone that morning and her parents seemed to show concern as to who it was and what was discussed. It was a natural response coming from KC (probably one of the few) but irregardless I believe that's all there was to that conversation. JMO, of course.

I also believe it was the evening of the 15th, not the 16th FWIW.

Jaemar3
07-23-2011, 09:03 AM
“It is easier to believe a lie that one has heard a thousand times than to believe a fact that no one has heard before”

From the start of this, sensationalism got my attention. WHAT A STORY! Headlines caught my attention. OMG! What the hell happened?

I was sort of buying into the "story" from day one. Thought it was horrible! How could Casey do this? Then, the more I researched and found out info, the more I began to think there was something VERY WRONG with the story. Knowledge is power.

From the beginning, George and Cindy's actions were, at the least, unconventional. Every time they blew up at TV Anchors, i.e. Greta, Megyn Kelly, Geraldo, to name a few, I was astounded! Their personal appearances all over TV in the beginning, before Caylee's remains were found, were confusing, disturbing, and gave me pause. Their behavior was not in sync with the event of Caylee missing. Who behaves like this? Cindy's mood changes were fascinating in TV interviews, police interviews, depositions, calls, etc. It puzzled me. So I started questioning.

The neighbors were up in arms! Why? When has this ever happened before? I followed many cases over the years: Jon Benet Ramsey, Danielle Van Dam, Samantha Runnion, Haleigh Cummings, Emily Smart, Robert Blake, Michael Peterson, Scott Peterson, and on and on. I always suspected media hype and sensationalism, but not to the extent of Casey Anthony's case. No one behaved the way the Anthony's behaved. Puzzling. They were reviled, and rightfully so due to their actions and lies.

31 days???!!! A Nanny that didn't exist? WTH? Cindy being portrayed as a grieving, loving Grandmother, yet 31 days? The whole family playing "Cop"? The overuse of adverbs in all their speech, the expounding of even small incidents, the dichotomy from what I had investigated and their public persona. The fantastic "memories" of both Cindy and Casey to recall insignificant dates, conversations, hints, etc. Puzzling!!! The families carefully constructed speech patterns, some called it "coding!" WOW! Cindy cleaning the car, washing clothes, wiping the baby doll, spraying Febreeze. George not telling the police about the "smell of decomp", driving home with the windows open. WHAT? Their repeated attempts to lead the police in other directions, ie. Jesse did it, Amy did it, etc. etc. WHY?

During the trial, I listened to the State and questioned everything, and because I had listened and read police and FBI interviews, some things didn't fit. The decomping body for days in the trunk was very troubling. How can anyone drive around with her baby melting in the trunk and act seemingly "normal?" Casey was back and forth from the car to friends houses - her clothes did not smell!! The duct tape - WOW! Eye opener! And that stupid "heart sticker" found 12-15 feet away from the body stuck to a piece of cardboard!!!??? Really?

Most puzzling was this: Casey never ran. She just stayed away from her family and lied about the Nanny. But she had been lying about the Nanny for 2 years prior. I had to ask, WHY? She could have run off. She had stolen money, had a vehicle, she could have just disappeared. She didn't. She just stayed clear of her family. Where did she go every day for two years when her parents "thought" she was working? How can that be possible? "Loving, caring grandparents, the providers of all things "normal"," yet for two years they had no clue what Casey and Caylee were doing every day? Didn't know the Nanny? Never questioned her money situation, taxes, etc? Stealing gas when they believed she was working? WHAT? Does any of this make sense?

Then the defense got their turn and I started putting two and two together, also knowing everything I knew from research, and it wasn't adding up! The 84 chloroform hits was ridiculous. It's not humanly possible! We now know this was an error! We NOW understand why perjury charges were not filed against Cindy Anthony - because the STATE KNEW ABOUT THE CHLOROFORM REPORT ERRORS!!! The pregnancy that no one "noticed" until Casey was almost 8 months pregnant. George and Cindy's performance on the stand in court. Oscar material! Their obvious lies and condescending behavior. The carrying of Bibles, printed pics of Caylee to look at on the stand. blah blah blah. Oscar winning! These people missed their calling, Hollywood could have used them!! The "foundations" they opened, being paid for Caylee's pictures (that are rightfully Casey's property). Cindy a registered nurse who NEVER TOOK CASEY to see an OB/GYN! WOW!!! Doesn't make sense.

Lee's outlandish behavior at the Memorial, the cryptic messages, kissing the bracelets, "CMA", a promise he would keep??!!! WTH? His breakdown on the stand over "not being included in Casey's pregnancy and not going to the hospital." Really? He never cried like that over Caylee's being missing, and especially when her remains were found. Odd, to say the least! Questionable behavior.

The original date of "last seeing Caylee" was June 9th, by Casey, George, and Cindy. The original missing flyers stated "Last seen June 9th". The Father's Day video changed that date, brought to the Anthony's attention by the police. How do you not remember the last date and what happened on June 9th that they all used that date?

I continued researching, reading all depositions, testimony in interviews, etc. throughout the trial and I deduced - THE STATE CREATED A FANTASTIC STORY THAT WAS NOT CREDIBLE!!! I leaned towards an accident, a breakdown for Casey, a promise from George that he reneged on, and absolutely George's involvement. Absolutely! And, I totally believe George sexually abused Casey and Caylee was the result of this heinous behavior. And CINDY KNEW. (Please see link added below for information on child incest/sexual abuse.) There is definitely more "money" and "sympathy" in kidnapping/murder! Not so much with an accident and a cover-up by the father/grandfather of Caylee!!!

Here is my opinion: When the media presents a case in sensational sound bites and pieces, using evidence to sway the public, opining and setting forth their "learned, experienced opinions", well, it's pretty hard to "unring the bell." We are a nation of sound bites. We form quick opinions in our busy lives that grab our attention, AND WE END UP BELIEVING IT!

A search for the truth is always pertinent. I refuse to take anything for face value. I want to KNOW, to be CERTAIN, no question in my mind of a persons innocence or guilt. I refuse to be swayed by hate-mongers and a mob lynch mentality. I do not think I am a fool, and news reporters/journalists/former prosecutors should not expect that I will buy into their story. They need to either present the truth without prejudice, or not report at all!!! I love having cameras in the courtroom, but I prefer to have learned, professional people opining and explaining the LAWS as to the trial. All the hype, hatred, and BS needs to be banned.
I totally support the Jurors because they didn't buy into the State's outlandish, concocted "theory!"

“People do not believe lies because they have to, but because they want to” Malcolm Muggeridge

AN INCEST/SEXUAL ABUSE TRUE STORY

‪A True Story Of Child Sex Abuse - For Adults‬‏ - YouTube

FLmom777
07-23-2011, 03:13 PM
I am replying to Jaemar bit did not want to include the original post due to length.

There are a few things that you state that are not accurate. Cindy not taking FCA to the ob/gyn is immaterial. My daughter is close to the same age and I have never taken her. That is her responsibility, not mine. My mother never took me. That was up to me.

George is not the father of Caylee. This is proven by DNA. I do not think there was any sexual abuse in this family. That was just another lie by FCA. There was no evidence to support the accusation.

Cindy stated that FCA was like her. I agree. Cindy ruled that family7n for a while. FCA learned well from her mother, and in time, she ruled. Everything we have seen from observers shows that the family was trying to appease FCA in many cases.

This is MOO, as you are entitled to yours.