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morf13
05-28-2009, 11:07 AM
Wanted to hear from people on their opinions regarding the Zodiac killer case,as far as theories,suspects,etc. Put this in the cold case thread,since after 40 years,there have been no arrests.

Dr. Doogie
05-28-2009, 01:46 PM
I will comment here at length as time permits, but I want to make two quick comments about recent developments:

*Jack Tarrance: promoted by his stepson Dennis Kaufman and a completely incompetent CBS13 TV in Sacramento. Absolutely NOT the Zodiac.

*Guy Ward Hendrickson: promoted by his stepdaughter Deborah Perez and a completely incompetent local media in San Francisco. Even less chance of being Zodiac than Tarrance.

It used to that people with "daddy issues" would merely spend a fortune with a shrink - now they accuse their poppa of being Zodiac and a slew of news-whores will gladly stroke their egos by providing them their fifteen minutes of fame.

Mr. E
05-28-2009, 01:51 PM
Dr. D, I never thought Perez had a leg to stand on, either. Her story always seemed nutty.

But what about Tarrance? He's got the black hood and the photos. I know a lot of people find him suspicious, but on what grounds? I haven't kept up with his story...just what I've read in news reports. Doesn't he also have a bloody knife?

morf13
05-28-2009, 09:18 PM
Dr. D, I never thought Perez had a leg to stand on, either. Her story always seemed nutty.

But what about Tarrance? He's got the black hood and the photos. I know a lot of people find him suspicious, but on what grounds? I haven't kept up with his story...just what I've read in news reports. Doesn't he also have a bloody knife?


There is no evidence that the stuff that Tarrance's stepson,Dennis, has produced "claiming" to be Jack's stuff,is really Jack's. Alot of people believe that this is all a ploy to make $$$ for Dennis Kauffman. Besides looking similar to one of the Zodiac sketches,Jack seems to be in no way Zodiac,there is no evidence to support it.


And as far as Deb. Perez,...wow...not sure if she just wants 15 minutes of fame,or to make some $$$,but definately no shot of her story being true

Dr. Doogie
05-28-2009, 11:48 PM
Kaufman has a long history of trying to convince anybody and everybody that Tarrance was Zodiac dating back to around 2000. At one point, he claimed to have the bloody shirt of cabbie Paul Stine and offered to sell it to Tom Voigt for $50,000. To be fair to Dennis, this "offer" may have been just hyperbole designed to be farcical, but it is telling that Dennis later "found" another article of clothing (the hood) to "verify" his claims. Of course, the hood that DK found does not match Brian Hartnell's description (neither does the knife that Dennis also claims to have found).

The pictures that Dennis claims are of Zodijack's victims are patently ridiculous. The only one that may actually show a murder seems to have a tattooed dead man in the process of doing a pushup and supporting his weight by his outstretched arms. The other pictures either show unidentifiable blobs (one of which, one of Kaufman's experts claims is Rose Cole in the process of being mutilated - a name that should ring a bell for most here at WS) or seeming innocent pictures of a young boy and one of a hat (A HAT!!! That REALLY convinces me that JT was Zodiac! :doh:)

Dennis is a huckster trying to gain a combination of fame and fortune. When he found the hood, he first called his business partner before calling the police. He has a quickie DVD for sale (now discounted to $9.99 because no one was willing to buy at retail prices). Earlier, he had been selling a book about his theories, except no one beyond his inner circle ever saw the book and Dennis evidently never refunded the money that his gullible "customers" spent on pre-orders.

morf13
05-29-2009, 04:51 PM
I think it is truly disturbing how people can accuse loved ones of such heinous crimes,when they know full well its false.

Zobsessed
05-29-2009, 09:00 PM
Over the past few years I have become severely obsessed with this case. Needless to say, little tidbits like the following pique my interest:


Voigt's best suspect is Richard Joseph Gaikowski, who died in 2004. He was in his 30s during the confirmed Zodiac killings.

You'll like this: Gaikowski was a newspaperman, editing a Bay Area underground sheet called "Good Times."

A tipster alerted Voigt to him, and Voigt liked what he saw. The term 'good times" is used in some of the letters Zodiac wrote to papers. He actually worked at the Vallejo paper at the time it was the recipient of Zodiac mail. Gaikowski looks like the composite sketch of Zodiac.

Voigt got a recording of Gaikowski's voice and played it for the police dispatcher Zodiac talked to. She told Voigt, "That's the voice."

You can read more about him on the Web site, but suffice to say, the real test will be whether Gaikowski's DNA is a match for the DNA that's been extracted from an envelop or stamp the Zodiac licked before he sent his letters to newspapers. A Virginia lab is testing it.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/zodiac-voigt-perez-2432402-gaikowski-claim

This was news to me, I know that Voigt has really focused on Gaikowski as the main suspect in this case for some time but I had no idea that it had gotten this far. I really wonder if that Virginia lab isn't an FBI lab testing Gaik's DNA against the extracted DNA from the letters.

There may be, finally, an end to all of this after all on the horizon, here's to hoping!

:clap:

morf13
05-29-2009, 09:34 PM
Regarding Gykekowski or GYKE as some people call him,some people on his forum poined out flaws in making the case for GYKE being Zodiac. Those that did not agree,and pointed out flaws,or things that didnt add up to GYKE being Zodiac,had their posts edited,and their memberships banned(i know this personally from my own experience)If you speak your own mind on that forum,and disagree with Tom's ideas,you make enemies with him quickly,and run the risk of being banned.Censorship at its best(or worst)The guy has a great site,and has done some great research,but his people skills are lacking,as well as his open mind towards Zodiac. Dont wanna get off topic,or on a rant,so i will just say with all the "compelling" evidence against Gyke,where is all the police investigation on him? Why isnt it ongoing? Even Kauffman seems to have peeked more of an interest from the police.

morf13
05-29-2009, 09:41 PM
Zobsessed,great to see another Zodiac "obsessed" person on here. I am as well. Spend alot of time chasing clues,thru old newspapers, online articles ,etc,and unfortunately,alot of dead ends.But i have had the great pleasure of talking to some really great and well known Zodiac researchers,and even a detective that has worked on the Zodiac case. I have dug up some pretty interesting stuff here and there.Wouldnt mind sharing with you.Drop me a line.

morf13
05-29-2009, 11:34 PM
Judy Lichti Murdered- Zodiac Connection?
Juddy Lichti was murdered on July 4th,1969 at aprox. 11-11:30 PM. She was shot when a car pulled up along side her car and opened fire,also wounding her husband.There was no motive in the attack,and 40 years later,the case is unsolved.

How is this related to the Zodiac killer? It may not be,BUT,it's VERY similar to the confirmed Zodiac attack of Darlene Ferrin,and Mike Mageau,who were attacked aprox. 30-45 minutes later. The only problem is that Lichti was attacked in the Fresno/Barton,Calif. area,and Mageau/Ferrin were attacked 30-45 minutes later in Vallejo. These two towns are 2-3 hours apart,so theres no way that the same person pulled the trigger at both crime scenes,BUT,when i posted this on another forum,a person that believes that Zodiac was not a single man,but rather a team,pointed out that as a Zodiac team,they could have committed both murders,in 2 different areas. I am not personally into the idea that there was a Zodiac "team",but anything is possible i guess,and it actually could explain the differences of appearance in the zodiac sketches.

Still,Zodiac victim or not,the murder of Lichti needs to be solved.After 40 years,her family deserves answers. Heres a news article on her story:

Independent Press-Telegram July 6,1969
Bullets Shot in 'Senseless' Car Attack Kill Wife, 29
FRESNO </Pt — A
young Fresno mother was
shot to death Friday night
as she and her husband
and small son drove home
from a Fourth of July
show at a speedway.
The sheriff's department
said Mrs. Judy Lichti,
29, was killed, apparently
without provocation
by shots fired from a car
which pulled alongside
their car about 11:15 p.m.
Mrs. Lichti. who was
driving, was hit in the
head. She died later in a
hospital. Her husband,
John, 29, who managed to
steer the car to a slop,
was treated for a gunshot

morf13
05-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Trying to get this thread off the ground,so here goes...Gonna try to add some more possible victims/cases that may be attributed to the Zodiac.

Murdered Woman Is Identified 4-25-67
CARSON CITY, Nev. (UPI)-The body of a woman found in
the hills one week ago has been identified as Anna J. Anderson,
48, of Oakland, Calif., a nurse at the Richmond, Calif., General
Hospital. Sheriff Robert Humphrey said the case was definitely
a homicide.
She worked in Calif. as a nurse,like Donna Lass,who many people think was a Zodiac victim.

Zobsessed
05-31-2009, 01:08 PM
Dont wanna get off topic,or on a rant,so i will just say with all the "compelling" evidence against Gyke,where is all the police investigation on him? Why isnt it ongoing? Even Kauffman seems to have peeked more of an interest from the police.

Which is scary. Because I don't believe that Tarrance was in any way Zodiac. It's so sad, in a way, that his step son wants him to be... Don't get me started on Deborah Perez.

I think with Gaikowski, it's possible. I'm anxiously awaiting these DNA results. Voigt responded to me over on his forum (when I started a thread about the OC story from May 28th) and he said he didn't want to make a big thing out of the testing, which I completely understand. Some of the links for Gyke are interesting and the fact that the FBI did look at him, even if briefly, makes him more compelling. However, the fact that he lived in San Francisco lead's me to believe it wasn't him... which lead's me to my next topic....

Zobsessed
05-31-2009, 01:36 PM
First, let me firmly state up front that I am a novice on Z. I know what I know, but that's all I know. I got into this case after the Cold Case Files episode aired some years ago and after Fincher's film (which I consider to be a masterpiece) came out, I was hooked. I then read Graysmith's book which I subsequently have found to be not very well respected amongst the Z sleuths. I actually like that book quite a bit and gleaned many of my opinions about this case from it.

On the topic of that book, I do not believe ALA was Z, nor do I believe he was invovled in any way. I do think he liked the attention he got from this case though and he enjoyed screwing with the police. A better candidate from Graysmith's book is "Andrew Walker". Although, as I understand it, he had a thick northeastern accent which Nancy Slove (and others) could attest to Z not having.

The most frustrating thing about this case is that everyone (web admin, filmmaker, writer, et al) has a suspect. This tends to cause splintered opinions and ideas. The kind of thing that has consistently kept this case from being solved. There were a number of great detectives on this case, Toschi, Armstrong, Narlow.. and they all had their notable suspects.

Arthur Leigh Allen - DNA didn't match, finger print doesn't match, handwriting doesn't match, case closed on ALA.

Rick Marshall - SFPD officially ruled him out as a suspect, prior to his death, last fall. This according to Tom Voigt. Case closed on him, too.

Okay, with those two out of the way that leaves about 4,498 more. :rolleyes:

Having fast forwarded to this point in the discussion, ruling out those two. I would like to hear your opinion morf13. I'm always very interested in hearing theories and opinions. I do have some questions for you, if you don't mind humoring me...

1) What do you think of Gareth Penn as a suspect?
2) How about: Lawrence Kane, Mr. X (who's name I recently found!), Robert Hansen, David Carpenter?
3) Do you there was more than one person involved in the killings?
4) Do you think Z killed Cheri Jo Bates?
5) Do you think Z actually killed 37 (or more than the 5 confirmed)?

I'll start with those questions... I have others. I have just recently read Michael D. Kelleher's book "This is the Zodiac Speaking" and I consider it to be a headier read than YB. I also tend to agree with many of the opinions in the book, not all, but many. There's also a great supplementary video to the 2-disc Director's Cut of Fincher's film on the Zodiac Movie website. I recently discovered that as well. The Behavioral Profiling snippet with Sharon Hagan has really helped me form my opinions (along with Kelleher's book).

Look forward to hearing from you.

miles_draken
05-31-2009, 04:44 PM
It seems to me that many of those obsessed with the Zodiac case don't really want it to be solved. They crucify anyone who seems to come forward with a suspect, or perhaps it is just that every expert has their own favorite suspect.

Almost everything I read from Zodiac community discounts Robert Graysmiths theory about ALA, even though he seems to have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Most people don't believe Perez.

Most think Dennis Kauffman is after money and has no evidence.

At least the authorities seem to put enough stock in the theories to check them out.

I think the Zodiac case is just a web of dead ends and false hopes. Everyones favorite suspect has that one compelling thing that seems to keep them from being the guy. Somewhere out there is a perfect fit, the real Zodiac killer, but it may be someone nobody suspected.

I don't go for the "team" theory, ever try to get a group of people to keep a secret??

Tom Voight does have an interesting site, but I lost respect for him when he was offering BTK some pictures of people he'd killed. I'm sure it was a hoax, but it wasn't in very good taste.

And regarding Voights favorite Gradowski or however it's spelled, much of this is based on the dispatcher remembering his voice after nearly four decades?? Seems like a stretch.

I hope it's solved. I think every suspect needs to be looked at. Instead of the quick discount of all these people coming forward with wild claims, prove with facts that it wasn't them. It appears that in the Zodiac community suspects are considered fraudulent until proven guilty.

Zobsessed
05-31-2009, 06:47 PM
It seems to me that many of those obsessed with the Zodiac case don't really want it to be solved. They crucify anyone who seems to come forward with a suspect, or perhaps it is just that every expert has their own favorite suspect.

It sure does seem that way, doesn't it? There needs to be an end to this though. Like with most great true crime shows (Cold Case Files, American Justice, et al) there is closure. This is just one of those cases that seems to have no resolution. That itself lends itself to the obsessed (me) and the opportunists (you know them). It's also dissimilar to the cases featured nightly on cable news. Those are typically single murders of local interest that are boosted to the national level because yenta's like to watch that crap. It's the kind of case that requires a lot of patience, not conducive to a 15 minute segment.


Almost everything I read from Zodiac community discounts Robert Graysmiths theory about ALA, even though he seems to have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

I agree. I like Graysmith, quite a bit actually. ALA seems to be the perfect fit except for the fact that his DNA doesn't match the profile from the stamp(s), fingerprint doesn't match..nor does the handwriting. It's at that point that you have to let go of that suspect as viable, IMO.


I don't go for the "team" theory, ever try to get a group of people to keep a secret??

Agreed. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. In order for conspiracies to work it means multiple parties must keep secrets. And, as you said.. the quickest way for something to not be a secret is to tell someone else. I don't think Z ever told a soul...


I hope it's solved. I think every suspect needs to be looked at. Instead of the quick discount of all these people coming forward with wild claims, prove with facts that it wasn't them. It appears that in the Zodiac community suspects are considered fraudulent until proven guilty.

There are camps. As an outsider looking in..it's a bit odd. If the end goal is the same then there should be cooperation and bridge building. Not derision and fence building. I've kind of gone down every road on this case since I've been interested in it. I tend to stop at the point where the suspect is proven to not be Z. With ALA (DNA) with Rick Marshall (police dismiss him) and on and on... Once the physical evidence says "no" then you have to start over, IMO.

morf13
05-31-2009, 06:49 PM
First, let me firmly state up front that I am a novice on Z. I know what I know, but that's all I know. I got into this case after the Cold Case Files episode aired some years ago and after Fincher's film (which I consider to be a masterpiece) came out, I was hooked. I then read Graysmith's book which I subsequently have found to be not very well respected amongst the Z sleuths. I actually like that book quite a bit and gleaned many of my opinions about this case from it.

On the topic of that book, I do not believe ALA was Z, nor do I believe he was invovled in any way. I do think he liked the attention he got from this case though and he enjoyed screwing with the police. A better candidate from Graysmith's book is "Andrew Walker". Although, as I understand it, he had a thick northeastern accent which Nancy Slove (and others) could attest to Z not having.

The most frustrating thing about this case is that everyone (web admin, filmmaker, writer, et al) has a suspect. This tends to cause splintered opinions and ideas. The kind of thing that has consistently kept this case from being solved. There were a number of great detectives on this case, Toschi, Armstrong, Narlow.. and they all had their notable suspects.

Arthur Leigh Allen - DNA didn't match, finger print doesn't match, handwriting doesn't match, case closed on ALA.

Rick Marshall - SFPD officially ruled him out as a suspect, prior to his death, last fall. This according to Tom Voigt. Case closed on him, too.

Okay, with those two out of the way that leaves about 4,498 more. :rolleyes:

Having fast forwarded to this point in the discussion, ruling out those two. I would like to hear your opinion morf13. I'm always very interested in hearing theories and opinions. I do have some questions for you, if you don't mind humoring me...

1) What do you think of Gareth Penn as a suspect?
2) How about: Lawrence Kane, Mr. X (who's name I recently found!), Robert Hansen, David Carpenter?
3) Do you there was more than one person involved in the killings?
4) Do you think Z killed Cheri Jo Bates?
5) Do you think Z actually killed 37 (or more than the 5 confirmed)?

I'll start with those questions... I have others. I have just recently read Michael D. Kelleher's book "This is the Zodiac Speaking" and I consider it to be a headier read than YB. I also tend to agree with many of the opinions in the book, not all, but many. There's also a great supplementary video to the 2-disc Director's Cut of Fincher's film on the Zodiac Movie website. I recently discovered that as well. The Behavioral Profiling snippet with Sharon Hagan has really helped me form my opinions (along with Kelleher's book).

Look forward to hearing from you.

To Zobsessed,my new,fellow Zodiac Obsessed friend, I share some of the same thoughts as you.I am no expert on the case,and believe that there is still alot to learn,so i enjoy when i am able to talk with some of the great researchers and investigators regarding the case.I have read about the case for a long time,watched the documentaries,and loved the movie Zodiac,and dont understand why it wasnt honored with any Oscar nominations. The movie IS basically based on Robert Greysmith's book. There is quite a backlash against Greysmith from the Zodiac sleuth community. Some things were changed,added,etc by the author(according to these people that dont support him) I dont know if he flat out lied,or as an inexperienced investigative writer,made errors,didnt fully checkout witness reports,etc. I think he got caught up in the thought that ALA was Zodiac,and when you lose your objectivity as a writer,you taint your own writing from thereon out. I would strongly recommend that anyone that wants to find the true facts on this case visit Michael Butterfield's site, www.zodiackillerfacts.com (http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/) Michael is well known in the Zodiac community,and has participated in many documentaries on the case.He has a bunch of videos on youtube that are invaluable and show the discrepancies on the books by Greysmith.(just go to youtube and search the name MICHAEL BUTTERFIELD and you will find his great videos)

Anyone who thinks ALA was Zodiac is entitled to their own opinion,but, there is NO EVIDENCE that supports this.

Regarding Cheri Jo Bates,i started a thread about her here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84644
You will see that i posted about a girl in a red dress was found dead(the writer of the desktop poem found in the RCC storage,mentioned a girl in a RED dress) I think its interesting and possible that Zodiac killed her,and the letters written were certainly similar,BUT,there is no direct evidence of Zodiac killing her,and he only took credit for it AFTER the news broke that Bates was a possile Z victim.

Gareth Penn-I will start by saying that i do not want to insinuate that Penn was Zodiac,nor do i want to soil his reputation,but here are some "coincidences" i discovered about Penn(sorry for the great length of this post):
Penn was a fan of writing to editors(like Zodiac)and getting his point across. In 1994,Penn wrote to Time magazine about a new production of "The Mikado" in which the reviewer mistakenly attributed the lyrics to Sullivan and the music to Gilbert.

He wrote "Let's see, now. Sullivan wrote the words, and Gilbert wrote the music. Holmes is the doctor, and Watson the detective. Harpo had the cigar, and Groucho tooted the auto horn. Thanks for setting the record straight.
Gareth Penn San Rafael, California "
As you probably know,Zodiac was a big fan of the Mikado and Gilbert & Sullivan and even used their work in his letters.
Penn also wrote a series of letters to a magazine/writers club, called "The Ecphorizer" One of the letters was called



"Gone With The 25¢ Potroast"




Here's an excerpt-“One day last winter, I was in a quiet neighborhood of Vallejo near Interstate 80. About 500 feet west of the freeway there was a little park, about a half”
(This ties Penn to Vallejo where some of the attacks happened)


Another letter was called
"Where Were You?"
Here's an excerpt- "Frank Jr. was FIDDLING with a battery-powered radio to find out what was going on.”


ZODIAC said in a letter “the longer they FIDDLE and fart around the more slaves I will collect for my afterlife"



Another letter was called
"Creative Reading"
Heres an excerpt-"One of the oldest means of creating a trademark is to encode a message in it by writing it backwards. Those over 35 may remember Serutan, the natural laxative for those over 35. As you can readily see, the trademark is "Nature's" spelled backwards. Just so you don't think this is over-interpretation on my part, let me point out that the Serutan commercials used to bring out that fact a dozen times every day over the nation's airwaves.”


This shows that Penn definately had knowledge of Codes/ciphers



Another paper was called
"Thirty-Eight"
Here are some excerpts-“His passenger was fumbling inside his jacket as if for his wallet.”
“The SFPD officers left the spot with tires screeching”
“In response to this letter, the SFPD held a press conference in which the Zodiac's story about the encounter with the two police officers was stoutly denied. To this day, the SFPD has never admitted that the Zodiac was telling the truth. They were lying.”


“Late in June, 1970, the Zodiac sent the Chronicle a letter in which, among other things, he claimed to have "shot a man sitting in a parked car with a 38." The police gave out that they had searched the records of every law-enforcement agency west of the Rockies without turning up a shooting victim who fit the description. The Zodiac's claim was dismissed as an idle boast. They were lying again. There was a recent shooting victim who had been shot with a .38 in a parked car, and his car had been parked in San Francisco at the time: Paul Stine. SFPD ballistics experts had typed the murder weapon as a .38-caliber revolver, but it was identified for public consumption as a 9mm automatic in order to fabricate one of those shared secrets that the police reason will enable them to separate the real criminal from compulsive confessors.”
“For similar reasons, the authorities hushed up the facts about the trip book even though the Zodiac's version, Maple and Washington, had been published in the Chronicle for all to see”


Here's my take on the above excerpts, "His passenger was fumbling inside his jacket as if for his wallet.” (talking about the Paul Stine murder) How does Penn know this? Either he is just writing creatively,or he was there.


" They were lying" / "They were lying again"
Sounds like Penn taking the police lying a little too seriously,awfully defensive,huh?


"for all to see" The writer of the Cheri Jo Bates "confession" letter from 11/29/66 said "THIS LETTER SHOULD BE PUBLISHED FOR ALL TO READ IT"


Of course these letters/writings are circumstancial. But so is the following: (some is borrowed from another site)


Police profilers considered the Zodiac killer an "extremely shrewd, methodical planner" who would have had knowledge of cryptography, guns, map reading, meteorology, astronomy, drafting, and a probable military background. [32]


Self described as the son of an Army cryptographer and former employee of the California Attorney General’s office, Penn has written that he had a "checkered career" as a “medievalist, artillery surveyor, free lance writer, economic researcher, reference librarian, and receptionist in a robot factory.” [33]


In Times 17 Penn writes that he received artillery training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma during the mid-1960's. A U.S. Army artillery surveyor performs astronomical observations; measures azimuths, grid coordinates, and angles on maps; and operates/maintains vehicles, radios, weapons, and other survey equipment in support of artillery operations. [34]


Amateur investigators have noted that in Times 17, Penn audaciouly lays out a scenario whereby, as duty person in charge of daily roll call, he could have falsified an entry and left Fort Sill in October, 1966, taken a military hop to March AFB, and killed Cheri Jo Bates in nearby Riverside. [35] [36]


Based on his dates of service, Penn would have served during the Vietnam War.[37]
Writing style
A prolific letter-to-the-editor writer, Zodiac used British phrasing that incorporated numerous references to theatrical, literary, or linguistic works.


Recurring Zodiac themes included Gilbert and Sullivan’s Mikado; Old Norse limericks and poetry; epigrams, acrostics, and cryptograms; and high-handed word play intended to baffle and belittle the authorities.


Gareth Penn’s proclivity toward astute, officious, and often biting letters to the editors of the world’s top intellectual periodicals -- such as Scientific American, Nature, The Economist, and at least 15 letters over the years to National Public Radio -- has tantalized amateur sleuths as another similarity between Penn and Zodiac


In an Ecphorizer article entitled Lima Riki, Penn notes that "in a previous incarnation," he used to write limericks "in Old Norse." A Zodiac letter mentions Old Norse writing, an issue Penn subsequently addressed


Another big COINCIDENCE i found was that Penn retired from the Marine fishery Svcs Library. I found a biologist named DR ROBERT EMMETT who also worked for the Marine fisheries svc,although i dont know if they knew each other,or worked together. Do you remember the name ROBERT EMMETT? Some people think that the name "Robert Emmett the hippie",was the solution at the bottom of the 1st Zodiac cipher,but many assume that the name ROBERT EMMETT was the name of a schoolmate of Arthur Leigh Allen,RobertEmmett Rodifer.Maybe,Maybe not?


One last coincidence- Found this newspaper report(same one i mentioned in the thread about Cheri Jo Bates)
Headline from 12/19/66 Modesto Bee
"Woman's Body Is Found On Cliff
TIBURON (UPI)—The badly decomposed body of a woman
was found Sunday on a cliff by a young hunter. Authorities said
the body had lain in the underbrush for several months about 20
feet below Paradise Drive. An autopsy will be conducted to determine
cause of death. She was wearing a red dress.They found no Identification on the
body. Deputies said they have no report of a missing woman
matching the description of the body."


This body was discovered VERY CLOSE,within 1-2 miles i believe,of where Penn worked as a librarian(although i cant say the body was found while he was working there)


Penn's background,knowledge,reputation,etc makes him a "person of interest" to me,although once again i am not saying he is Zodiac or trying to ruin his name.As far as the site that has a huge report on Penn being Zodiac,and touches on all kinds of geometry,radions.etc,i got lost after reading it for 5 minutes(geometry & math are my worst subjects)


As far as some of the people Lawrence kane,Mr.X(took me a long time to find his identity)Robert Hansen,Robert Hunter,and all the other suspects.Some things seem to fit and some things dont.But i do respect the researchers and investigators opinions about these people. There were a LOT of murders going on,of all types in Calif. in the 60's,so even if some of these people are NOT zodiac,it doesnt mean they were not responsible for other attacks. That's what makes it hard to know how many people were really killed by Zodiac.


RE: Tom Voight and his site- Kudos to a great site filled with lots of info,and great members there.His Zodiac research is awesome,BUT,his people skills are terrible(just my opinion,and one shared by countless others banned from his site for not agreeing with his every word as if he's GOD) If you have a difference of opinion with him,or have other ideas,you will see your posts edited,and your membership cancelled.One of the big mistakes i made was to criticise his big suspect GYKE(i and a few others mentioned something to him that seemed to make GYKE not plausible as Zodiac)(I do think it's neat how the word GYKE appears clear as day in the original cipher).I wont show you the nasty emails he sent me.It's funny, i think i get along with just about anybody,and respect people's opinions,even if i dont happen to share them,but...whatever



Anyway,I am really happy to be here with like minded people and hope to learn alot,and hear some opinions and ideas.

morf13
05-31-2009, 07:10 PM
It seems to me that many of those obsessed with the Zodiac case don't really want it to be solved. They crucify anyone who seems to come forward with a suspect, or perhaps it is just that every expert has their own favorite suspect.

Almost everything I read from Zodiac community discounts Robert Graysmiths theory about ALA, even though he seems to have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Most people don't believe Perez.

Most think Dennis Kauffman is after money and has no evidence.

At least the authorities seem to put enough stock in the theories to check them out.

I think the Zodiac case is just a web of dead ends and false hopes. Everyones favorite suspect has that one compelling thing that seems to keep them from being the guy. Somewhere out there is a perfect fit, the real Zodiac killer, but it may be someone nobody suspected.

I don't go for the "team" theory, ever try to get a group of people to keep a secret??

Tom Voight does have an interesting site, but I lost respect for him when he was offering BTK some pictures of people he'd killed. I'm sure it was a hoax, but it wasn't in very good taste.

And regarding Voights favorite Gradowski or however it's spelled, much of this is based on the dispatcher remembering his voice after nearly four decades?? Seems like a stretch.

I hope it's solved. I think every suspect needs to be looked at. Instead of the quick discount of all these people coming forward with wild claims, prove with facts that it wasn't them. It appears that in the Zodiac community suspects are considered fraudulent until proven guilty.


Gotta agree,i think alot of Zodiac obsessed people will be really bored if the identity of Zodiac is revealed(myself included) But he is a criminal and if he's not dead,deserves to be punished to give the families of his victims closure.

There are so many differing thoughts,opinions,points of view,etc,on the Zodiac case,and that's why people sometimes argue or do not take other people seriously.I think EVERYBODY's thoughts and ideas are important tools,and i love hearing what everyone has to say on the subject. The more people work together and share info,the more likely it is that the case will get solved! Afterall,it's been 40 years,ad no arrests,so maybe we should all start from scratch and look at new and fresh ideas and suspects,afterall, we dont have all the answers,and there have been no arrests,so perhaps Zodiac was someone who's name was never even mentioned.

justthinkin
05-31-2009, 10:19 PM
Hi, just dropped in, and gotta question maybe someone can answer. I googled for images of RJ Gaikowski, and found a picture of him on a book. I clicked on the book image which led me to a page that flashes 2 facial sketches of the Zodiac. Have any idea when the two suspect sketches were done?

The reason I'm asking is if Gaikowski would be the right age for those two images of a suspect who looks to be 45-50 yrs. old or would Gaikowski have been a little bit too young?

Thanks!

morf13
05-31-2009, 10:47 PM
Hi, just dropped in, and gotta question maybe someone can answer. I googled for images of RJ Gaikowski, and found a picture of him on a book. I clicked on the book image which led me to a page that flashes 2 facial sketches of the Zodiac. Have any idea when the two suspect sketches were done?

The reason I'm asking is if Gaikowski would be the right age for those two images of a suspect who looks to be 45-50 yrs. old or would Gaikowski have been a little bit too young?

Thanks!

Born 3/14/36 so he would have been aprox. 33 at the time of the murders.I personally dont think Gyke was Zodiac. The sketches are based on sightings by kids that saw the Stine murder happen,and by the police who gave their account of the man they saw walking.They said that the person in the sketch appeared between 35 & 45 years old if i remember correctly

morf13
05-31-2009, 11:44 PM
Just updated the possible Zodiac victim,Cheri Jo Bates thread here:
Cheri Jo Bates...Zodiac Victim or not? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Dr. Doogie
06-02-2009, 01:41 PM
Gotta agree,i think alot of Zodiac obsessed people will be really bored if the identity of Zodiac is revealed(myself included) But he is a criminal and if he's not dead,deserves to be punished to give the families of his victims closure.

Like most Z-nuts, I have a POI. But if my POI is actually Zodiac, his identity will be far from boring. As a matter of fact, it would be Watergate levels of shaking the foundation of government in the US.

How would people react if Zodiac had been a Nixon White House operative and had been involved in running guns to the Contras and smuggling cocaine back to the States during the Carter and Reagan eras? My POI did both (provable) and also has been convicted for a murder that was suspected to have been a possible Zodiac killing at one time. He probably was the perp in several of the Santa Rosa Hitch-hiker murders and is a good suspect in the disapperance of Donna Lass. Throw into the mix that he was also arrested for a machine gun murder in 1975 that was linked at the time to the Symbionese Liberation Army. All I am missing is linking him to the Zodiac crimes themselves, though he certainly was in the right places at the right times to have committed the murders.

His name is Philip Arthur Thompson. I have posted a lot about him at Zodiackiller.com but I believe that you must be a member there to see the site. If you do your own research into this guy, be careful about info gleaned from the site newsmakingnews.com - the two woman who write there have questionable motives and much of what they post is misinformation or disinformation.

morf13
06-02-2009, 04:58 PM
Interesting guy is Thompson! I have read on him some as well. Do you have any known handwriting/printing samples of him?

I do like how every can research,and come up with their own persons of interest. I had one too,but i hit a roadblock with the background digging on him,and I am at a standstill. One person who I have previously mentioned,has a LOT of circumstancial evidence that seems to not neccessarily link him to the Z crimes directly,but makes it plausible that it COULD be him. The more reading i do,the more interesting facts i find,and he fits the profile of what many people think would be a good Zodiac suspect.The photos i have seen do not neccessarily match Z,and i would need to find some pics of him in and around 1969.I cant say that this guy was close to 6FT or 220 lbs.

kline
06-02-2009, 06:35 PM
Of all the suspects connected to this case my vote goes for Richard Gaikowski .
I think the circumstantial evidence concerning him is every bit as compelling as Arthur Leigh Allen....more so in many cases.
In addition Nancy Slover the Valejo dispatcher flat out said his voice was the one she talked to on the phone the night of July 4th ,1969.
And she's listened to voice recordings of every suspect out there.
Michael Maguae who was wounded in that attack, 20 some years later did pick ALA out of a line up of photos however he is somewhat of a burnout case.
He did also said recently that Darlene reffered to her attacker as 'Richard' this was way before Giakowski was a well known suspect,so take your pick there.
The switchboard for the underground magazine Gaikowski was editor for was also located virtually next door to murdered Cab Driver Paul Stine's apartment.

tapu
06-02-2009, 08:03 PM
~~ snip

[...] a person that believes that Zodiac was not a single man,but rather a team,pointed out that as a Zodiac team,they could have committed both murders,in 2 different areas. I am not personally into the idea that there was a Zodiac "team",but anything is possible i guess,and it actually could explain the differences of appearance in the zodiac sketches.

snip ~~


Interesting. For an analysis that also posits multiple, or a team of, perps for a crime series, see Maury Terry's "The Ultimate Evil," about the Son of Sam murders and other crimes possibly related.

Dr. Doogie
06-02-2009, 08:07 PM
Gaikowski is an interesting POI. The one thing that bothers me is that after all of the scrutiny that he has received, the worst offense that he has been shown to have been involved in was the sending of a prank letter claiming that the governor of his state had died. He seems to have been a respected member of the SF alternative art community. Only one acquaintance (the mysterious "Purple Goldcatcher") seems to believe that Richard was Zodiac.

According to zodiackiller.com, Gyke's DNA is currently being tested against the Zodiac letters. Jack Tarrence is also being tested, but it has been many months since that test was initiated and it is suspected that a negative match has already been told to Kaufman but he has not announced the results in an effort to keep his fifteen minutes of fame going. Hopefully, someone's DNA will match and settle this thing once and for all.

morf13
06-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Gaikowski is an interesting POI. The one thing that bothers me is that after all of the scrutiny that he has received, the worst offense that he has been shown to have been involved in was the sending of a prank letter claiming that the governor of his state had died. He seems to have been a respected member of the SF alternative art community. Only one acquaintance (the mysterious "Purple Goldcatcher") seems to believe that Richard was Zodiac.

According to zodiackiller.com, Gyke's DNA is currently being tested against the Zodiac letters. Jack Tarrence is also being tested, but it has been many months since that test was initiated and it is suspected that a negative match has already been told to Kaufman but he has not announced the results in an effort to keep his fifteen minutes of fame going. Hopefully, someone's DNA will match and settle this thing once and for all.


GYKE strikes me as a Hippie,counter culture type,into art,etc. Just cant see him being Zodiac,and ill bet the ranch that his DNA will not be a match.Then he can go in the drawer with ALA,and Mr.X,and everyone else that doesnt have definitive evidence linking them as Zodiac. That's the problem with this case. There are a ton of suspects,and "persons of interest",and they all seem to have some promise,but all lack solid conclusive evidence.


I don't know what type of person Zodiac was,but i tend to agree with most that he was pretty smart,had some interest or background in military,or was a wannabe. If the suspect description from the Stine murder is correct,then he would fit the Military conservative style vs . the GYKE hippie type.

I also am of the opinion that Zodiac stopped writing,or killing altogether after Stine's murder,because he realized how close he was to getting caught. There was a skectch,and witnesses,possibly even the police themselves saw him. They had possible finger prints from the Stine scene.Sure Zodiac said it was some rubber cement or whatever on the tips of his fingers,but why wouldnt he say that? Think about it.You realized that you made a big mistake and now they have your prints,he probably told them that his prints were fake to try to get them to discount the print they found. The kids that saw him said he was wiping down the cab.Why would he need to do that,if he wore gloves,or had fake fingertips on? I really believe that was a mistake on his part,and he got scared. So what i want to know is,did the SF police ever enter the print off the cab into a database anywhere? If Zodiac ever applied for certain ID's,licenses,gun permits,military,or was arrested,his prints may have been taken,and could be on file some place.

morf13
06-03-2009, 12:03 AM
Here's an interesting theory,that someone else on another board brought up.Since Zodiac had military issue type boots,and possibly had a military style haircut,and military type glasses,and was thought to have some sort of military background,perhaps in code training,and was perhaps seen near the Presidio military base after the Stine murder,theres a strong possibility that he could have been military.In addition,at the Cheri Jo Bates crime scene,a mens watch was found,and it was found that this type of watch was sold at military Px's(although the Bates murder isnt a confirmed Zodiac attack)

Going on this possible military connection,and the fact that Zodiac seemed to be especially comfortable in the area of Vallejo,how about the possibility that Zodiac worked at,was stationed at,or trained at the California Maritime Academy at Vallejo?
"Located in Vallejo, California, The California Maritime Academy (Cal Maritime) is a unique and specialized campus of The California State University that offers students bachelor’s degrees in international business and logistics, facilities engineering technology, global studies and maritime affairs, marine engineering technology, marine transportation, and mechanical engineering. Cal Maritime is one of only seven degree-granting maritime academies in the United States — and the only one on the West Coast." The drive from this academy to the Vallejo murder scenes would have been very short.

And some of the men coming thru there may have trained on boats made by a company called "Zodiac". The company called "ZODIAC" states, "Zodiac is the global leader for military and professional RIBs and inflatables"

Keeping up with the military angle here,a man named Robert Tarbox(a former attorney)announced that a man had come to him to seek legal advice,and claimed that he was the ZODIAC. Mr. Tarbox goes on to say that the man claiming to be Zodiac,produced as identification a MMD (Merchant Marine Document). ...so that's another piece that could put Zodiac in the miltary.Of course i dont know how true this is,and i have even heard that Mr. Tarbox was disbarred.But anyway here is a link to his story:
http://zodiackillertruth.com/tarbox.htm

In addition, I also found a ship with ties to the San fran area.Guess what the name of the ship is..yep,it's called "ZODIAC". Heres a little history on the ship
"Originally designed by William Hand Jr. as an ocean racing yacht, the Schooner Zodiac was built with painstaking care in 1924 in East Boothbay, Maine. Robert Wood Johnson and J. Seward Johnson of the Johnson & Johnson family were her first owners.
In 1931 the Zodiac was purchased by the San Francisco Bar Pilot Association and renamed California, beginning her long service as a bar pilot schooner. Her new responsibility was transporting harbor pilots to ships through shallow and dangerous waters off San Francisco's Golden Gate.
Retired in 1972, she was purchased by the Vessel Zodiac Corporation. Through the efforts of hundreds of dedicated volunteers, the vintage wooden schooner has been restored to her original beauty. In 1982, she earned a spot in the National Register of Historic places, and on her 60th birthday in 1984 was given back her maiden name."


Some people have assumed the name ZODIAC was picked by the killer because of the watch,and the fact the watch had a crosshair logo.But the above refernces for the name ZODIAC,directly in the area of Vallejo & SanFran,certainly makes it possible that he chose the name based on the local connection,vs the watch.

morf13
06-04-2009, 09:58 AM
I am of the opinion that Zodiac stopped writing as frequently to police,and may have stopped killing altogether after the murder of Paul Stine,because he was scared,and he knew he made some mistakes.

October 11,1969,Paul Stine is murdered. Zodiac is spotted by witnesses,and possibly even police.Sketches are made. In addition,there is a print found at the crime scene,but Zodiac doesnt know this yet.

October 13,1969,Zodiac mails a letter boasting to police that he killed Stine,and includes a piece of his shirt as proof. He states that the cops could have caught them had they searched the park properly.He makes NO mention of a patrol car stopping him,and he still doesnt know that they have witnesses and a print.

November 8,1969,Zodiac mails the DRIPPING PEN card.Makes no mention of the Stine killing,nor the witnesses that saw him,or the prints they have,nor the police stopping him.(By the way,this dripping pen card could be a big clue in itself.It was mailed postmarked San Fran. I dont know if police did this,but they should have contacted every Hallmark store,drug store,etc,any place that sold cards,and found out which ones within the San Fran-Vallejo areas carried this card. The card companies name and logo is right on the card. Then they could try to see if they could narrow down where it was sold,and if sucsessful,then interviewed clerks,and review any possible surveillance videos)

Here's about the time that Zodiac gets nervous i believe,and gets scared.

The very next day,November 9,1969,he mails the BUS BOMB letter. He says ,that he has grown angry at the police for spreading lies about him,so he would change the ways he collected souls,and not announce his murders. TRANSLATION: Ive been seeing in the news that you have clues about me and i almost got caught,now i am scared,so i am not going to be writing for a while. He goes on to say,that he looks like the description passed out only when he kills. TRANSLATION: You know what i look like now,but i want you to think that i dont really look like that.He further says,that the prints they found were simply airplane glue over his fingerprints and they dont have his real prints. TRANSLATION: You have my prints,but i want you to think that you dont.If Z used fake prints,or had gloves,why spend the extra few seconds wiping down the cab? He said he wiped it down to leave fake clues,and that the police didnt have any valuable info.I think he did that to make police think that the evidence they had was worthless and not worth pursuing.He also says finally that the police mad a goof,and stopped him that night after the murder.

Another thing he says,which i think is a big clue or mistake by Zodiac,is that his "killing tools" (not sure if he means guns,disguises or what,but i assume its guns)were purchased thru mail order outfits before the BAN went into effect(that's why i believe he means guns). Heres a 1968 GUN BAN link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

This is a slipup by Z. There are two possibilties here:

A- He is tellling the truth.If he is telling the truth,and bought it thru the mail before a gun ban was in effect,police have a date to work with.Simply try to track down purchases thru mail order companies of the specific model guns used by Z prior to the ban.
OR
B-He is lying and he bought his guns locally but doesnt want the cops trying to track him via local gun dealers.

So here you have 2 letters that were sent on back to back days.WHY? Why wouldnt he have just sent one letter.I think he sent the 1st letter,and that day,found out somehow the details of evidence police had against him,and got scared.That is what led him to write the second MISINFORMATION letter the next day trying to convince police that they had nothing.

On December 20,1969(also the anniversary of the faraday/jensen murders),Z sends his next letter to Melvin Belli.This in my opinion,is after a paranoid month getting rid of evidence and waiting for the police to knock on his door. He wants to get a defense in place,as he awaits the police to knock on his door. He reaches out with a nice letter wishing Melvin a HAPPY CHRISTMASS to be pleasant,and even takes the time to write nicely with nice print for a change instead of the sloppy stuff he normally sends(maybe this is even his true handwriting for a change)

Obviously,the police never knocked on his door(unless they did and we dont know it)but Zodiac felt the heat was off,and then wrote again feeling safe a few times in 1970.The next time he sends a confirmed Z letter is the 1974 Exorcist letter.So 4 years with no confirmed letter? What happened during this time. Was he in jail? If he was military,was he shipped out for a while to another base? Had the police finally knocked on his door,and questioned him,thus scaring him so bad that uldnt write for 4 years?

morf13
06-04-2009, 05:11 PM
Is this a possible Zodiac influence?
Possible Zodiac influence?
-1969 Prophetron Zoltan Fortune Teller- Take a look:

http://marvin3m.com/arcade/zoltan.htm

This is one of those old mechanical fortune teller machines that you used to see at fairs,carnivals,etc.As a matter of fact,if you ever watched the movie BIG starring Tom Hanks,it was similar to the type of machine that Hanks used that made him big.

You put in your money,the machine comes to life and usually starts out with "this is Zoltan speaking" Sounds familiar huh? like "this is the Zodiac speaking" In addition,the 12 signs of the ZODIAC are laid out on the front of the machine. Between the name Zoltan sounding like Zodiac,and the similar greeting of "this is Zoltan speaking" vs. "this is the Zodiac speaking",it seems possible that this could be a Zodiac influence.


Heres a video of it:
YouTube - Re: My Audition, YouTube + 312 other subjects... 8/14/07 2:4

morf13
06-04-2009, 05:17 PM
ZODIAC Letter to the FBI...Take a look,do you think this is authentic?
The first letter is a verified letter from Zodiac. The second letter is a letter to the FBI that i found in their declassified files,along with a copy of the return envelope.The return address is blacked out,but the city it is post marked from is there,but hard to read.

I personally believe that the lower case letter "d" is a spot on match in both letters.The way it leans to the right,and has a bit of a loop at the top. In addition,in the letter to the FBI,he crosses out a word that looks like the word PUTTING,and writes over top of it the word ESTABLISHING. Zodiac on more than one occasion crossed out a word,and wrote another word over top of it.I also went on to read the following from the FBI regarding this letter:
"These are letters received in the Zodiac case.It has not been definately established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac"
Also if you look on the envelope that the letter was sent in to the FBI,the lower case letter "f" looks alot like Zodiac's as well. The envelope was addressed and mailed to the FBI office in Boston. And the return address as i said is blacked out but the postmark is visible,but hard to read.If anyone here is computer savy and could enlarge it and clean it up,it would be much appreciated.I wish i could determine who the letter is from.From the subject matter in the letter,it almost sounds like an investiagtor communicating with the FBI office, or a citizen trying to give the FBI some info,but there is no way to determine where/who sent it with the return address blacked out.I wish i could make out the postmark.Since it is 11 years after the last confirmed Zodiac attack,the postmark could be important if it is from another city or state,showing that perhaps Zodiac moved.

I think i know why the letter may have been sent to the office in Boston,and that makes me think of one person that may have written it to the Boston FBI,but i will not comment on it here at this time.

Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 06:37 PM
GYKE strikes me as a Hippie,counter culture type,into art,etc. Just cant see him being Zodiac,and ill bet the ranch that his DNA will not be a match.Then he can go in the drawer with ALA,and Mr.X,and everyone else that doesnt have definitive evidence linking them as Zodiac. That's the problem with this case. There are a ton of suspects,and "persons of interest",and they all seem to have some promise,but all lack solid conclusive evidence.


I don't know what type of person Zodiac was,but i tend to agree with most that he was pretty smart,had some interest or background in military,or was a wannabe. If the suspect description from the Stine murder is correct,then he would fit the Military conservative style vs . the GYKE hippie type.

I also am of the opinion that Zodiac stopped writing,or killing altogether after Stine's murder,because he realized how close he was to getting caught. There was a skectch,and witnesses,possibly even the police themselves saw him. They had possible finger prints from the Stine scene.Sure Zodiac said it was some rubber cement or whatever on the tips of his fingers,but why wouldnt he say that? Think about it.You realized that you made a big mistake and now they have your prints,he probably told them that his prints were fake to try to get them to discount the print they found. The kids that saw him said he was wiping down the cab.Why would he need to do that,if he wore gloves,or had fake fingertips on? I really believe that was a mistake on his part,and he got scared. So what i want to know is,did the SF police ever enter the print off the cab into a database anywhere? If Zodiac ever applied for certain ID's,licenses,gun permits,military,or was arrested,his prints may have been taken,and could be on file some place.

Hey morf, have you seen Michael Butterfield's site recently? He now has a section for Gaikowski 'The Worst Zodiac Suspect Ever'. Interesting...

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 06:41 PM
Some people have assumed the name ZODIAC was picked by the killer because of the watch,and the fact the watch had a crosshair logo.But the above refernces for the name ZODIAC,directly in the area of Vallejo & SanFran,certainly makes it possible that he chose the name based on the local connection,vs the watch. [/COLOR]

I'm torn on this. Regarding where Zodiac lived, I definitely think he lived in Vallejo, I'm almost 100% sure of it. Based on the geographic profiling and the epicenter of the crimes, etc. Also, I think the motivation for killing Stine was to gain attention in "the big city". I don't think Z was a city dweller.

When you think about the fact that only several thousand (maybe less) white males of the appropriate age lived in Vallejo, and even way less than that fit the profile of Z... hmm. Penny for your thoughts?

morf13
06-04-2009, 06:45 PM
Yeah Obsessed,i did see that.He has some things going on,and i am sure he is busy now,but will update the GYKE section on his site soon

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 06:47 PM
Is this a possible Zodiac influence?
Possible Zodiac influence?
-1969 Prophetron Zoltan Fortune Teller- Take a look:

http://marvin3m.com/arcade/zoltan.htm

This is one of those old mechanical fortune teller machines that you used to see at fairs,carnivals,etc.As a matter of fact,if you ever watched the movie BIG starring Tom Hanks,it was similar to the type of machine that Hanks used that made him big.

You put in your money,the machine comes to life and usually starts out with "this is Zoltan speaking" Sounds familiar huh? like "this is the Zodiac speaking" In addition,the 12 signs of the ZODIAC are laid out on the front of the machine. Between the name Zoltan sounding like Zodiac,and the similar greeting of "this is Zoltan speaking" vs. "this is the Zodiac speaking",it seems possible that this could be a Zodiac influence.


Heres a video of it:
YouTube - Re: My Audition, YouTube + 312 other subjects... 8/14/07 2:4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBUL6Z5RZZU&feature=related)

I tend to think no, on this. I think the name Zodiac either came from the watch or your military connection, as laid out above. I also think Z was definitely either then active military or just recently discharged military (circa 1968-1969). That's why the escape root through the Presidio was so effortless (as he mentioned in his letter after the Stine killing).

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 06:56 PM
Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?

No expert, AT ALL, but the writing looks very good to me. My question is, does the author of the letter mention the "Harvard Police"? Or am I just having trouble reading this.

I think about one person associated with Harvard and Zodiac, Michael O'Hare. But, I don't think about Mr. O'Hare...I'm thinking about his accuser.

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 07:08 PM
Okay, we all know Z said he looked "different' when he "did his thing". Simple question...which one of these gentlemen was Z:

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/culture/2006/06/28/zodiac_blog_2100x147.jpg

Or

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2338/65476047.jpg

The first one is based on the children from the house across the street where Stine was shot. As well as David Foulke and Eric Helms account of the person the encountered that night.

The second one is the suspect that was seen hanging around Lake Berryessa (I think). The two really look nothing alike, IMO.

My long time question has been, which one is Z? If sketch number one isn't Z, then could the person that the person everyone thinks is Z truly isn't? What I mean is..for instance.. Mike Rodelli says Mr. X looks like a dead ringer for the composite, in 1969. As does (IMO) the author of Times 17.

But what if Z was the second composite...then what?

VespaElf
06-04-2009, 07:17 PM
The Zodiac has always intriqued me so Im enjoying reading this! PLEASE KEEP POSTING!
I have nothing to contribute as Im just a casual observer but I am interested in suspects/theories beyond Graysmiths (Ive tried reading on some Zodiac sites but its to "clique-y" for the unintitated).

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 07:47 PM
The Zodiac has always intriqued me so Im enjoying reading this! PLEASE KEEP POSTING!
I have nothing to contribute as Im just a casual observer but I am interested in suspects/theories beyond Graysmiths (Ive tried reading on some Zodiac sites but its to "clique-y" for the unintitated).

I hear you Vespa and too agree with your opinoin about the Zodiac sites. But, most boards are like that.

morf13
06-04-2009, 08:15 PM
No expert, AT ALL, but the writing looks very good to me. My question is, does the author of the letter mention the "Harvard Police"? Or am I just having trouble reading this.

I think about one person associated with Harvard and Zodiac, Michael O'Hare. But, I don't think about Mr. O'Hare...I'm thinking about his accuser.

BINGO! That's what i thought too.
Penn authored an article for the California’s magazine New West, written under the pseudonym “George Oakes,” and titled, “Portrait of the Artist as a Mass Murderer.” In the story, Penn described his theory that the Zodiac used a combination of binary numbers and Morse code to disguise his identity in the text of his letters. Binary numbers are used to compress language into a code of sorts.(this paragraph borrowed from Micahel Butterfields site Zodicakillerfacts.com-great site check it out)

Did you also notice in the leter where it says "binary theory"?

morf13
06-04-2009, 08:25 PM
The Zodiac has always intriqued me so Im enjoying reading this! PLEASE KEEP POSTING!
I have nothing to contribute as Im just a casual observer but I am interested in suspects/theories beyond Graysmiths (Ive tried reading on some Zodiac sites but its to "clique-y" for the unintitated).

Some of the Zodiac sites are very political too,and if you dont agree with the common beliefs of try to think for yourself,you get banned,or deleted.I dont need that childish stuff.We are all adults,and are entitled to our own ideas,thoughts and beliefs.

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 09:04 PM
Did you also notice in the leter where it says "binary theory"?

I absolutely did. And before G.P. wrote Times 17, who in the world ever came up with a Radian Theory. I still don't understand it, honestly. But, I'm not a member of mensa like G.P.

I don't know if you have seen this before, it's from Christopher Farmer's site. someone posted a pic of G.P. from 1980. If you ask me, it's the closest I have ever seen to the SFPD 1969 composite of Z leaving the Stine murder scene. Take away the beard, give him a crew cut and the same glasses and, viola!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5235/penn1980l.jpg http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8320/bazodiac03t.jpg

I think your theory about him being spooked after Stine is absoutely accurate. I have read that G.P.'s second wife had their first child in 1970 and they had another in the late 1970's which could explain why Z's life "changed". I have 3, it is indeed a life changing experience.

This is all circumstantial, and all of this stuff has been laughed at by Voigt and others... but I'm telling you, my gut tells me otherwise.

- He would have access to Wing Walkers.
- He could have escaped into the Presidio and would have been confident in his surroundings.
- He came up with a theory that NO ONE had ever considered as a motivating factor, or at least a reasoned factor behind Z's killings.
- He accused someone else of being Z and tried to ruin his reputation. Why? To deflect attention?
- He claims to have been a suspect at one time but to my knowledge, never was. Why does he claim this?

morf13
06-04-2009, 10:35 PM
I absolutely did. And before G.P. wrote Times 17, who in the world ever came up with a Radian Theory. I still don't understand it, honestly. But, I'm not a member of mensa like G.P.

I don't know if you have seen this before, it's from Christopher Farmer's site. someone posted a pic of G.P. from 1980. If you ask me, it's the closest I have ever seen to the SFPD 1969 composite of Z leaving the Stine murder scene. Take away the beard, give him a crew cut and the same glasses and, viola!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5235/penn1980l.jpg http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8320/bazodiac03t.jpg

I think your theory about him being spooked after Stine is absoutely accurate. I have read that G.P.'s second wife had their first child in 1970 and they had another in the late 1970's which could explain why Z's life "changed". I have 3, it is indeed a life changing experience.

This is all circumstantial, and all of this stuff has been laughed at by Voigt and others... but I'm telling you, my gut tells me otherwise.

- He would have access to Wing Walkers.
- He could have escaped into the Presidio and would have been confident in his surroundings.
- He came up with a theory that NO ONE had ever considered as a motivating factor, or at least a reasoned factor behind Z's killings.
- He accused someone else of being Z and tried to ruin his reputation. Why? To deflect attention?
- He claims to have been a suspect at one time but to my knowledge, never was. Why does he claim this?

Great find on the photo. I have only seen a couple pics of him,and they were newer than 1980. WOW,take off the beard,and give em a haircut and he does look like the Z sketch. As far as radians,binary,etc,math and geometry are not my strongest areas,so i dont know anything about that stuff. But if you add his background,his connection to the area,his history of writing to papers,etc, he certainly makes an interesting person of interest.Once again,i am not saying he was Zodiac,and i am not trying to ruin his name or rep.By the way,here is a sample of what i am almost positive is Penn's handwriting(which i have to say does NOT match any Zodiac writing i ever saw,but then again i dont know that Zodiac ever wrote in cursive)

In regards to Penn and how he relates to BOSTON,heres a youtube video about Joan Webster. Joan Webster was the woman from Harvard who was killed,and who Penn accused Michael Ohare of murdering. Watch the video and at 6:47 into the video,listen to what she says,and see who it sounds like:
[COLOR=#810081]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

morf13
06-04-2009, 11:05 PM
ZOBSESSED,i wanted to send you a PM,but you have your settings setup so that I cant send you a private message. Please send me a PM,i would like to talk with you privately

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 11:32 PM
Great find on the photo. I have only seen a couple pics of him,and they were newer than 1980. WOW,take off the beard,and give em a haircut and he does look like the Z sketch. As far as radians,binary,etc,math and geometry are not my strongest areas,so i dont know anything about that stuff. But if you add his background,his connection to the area,his history of writing to papers,etc, he certainly makes an interesting person of interest.Once again,i am not saying he was Zodiac,and i am not trying to ruin his name or rep.By the way,here is a sample of what i am almost positive is Penn's handwriting(which i have to say does NOT match any Zodiac writing i ever saw,but then again i dont know that Zodiac ever wrote in cursive)

I hear you, and I agree I definitely don't want to smear anyone. I think the only reason his name has ever surfaced is because he injected himself into the investigation. Yet another trait of those that are guilty is that they want to help investigators.

Very interesting find on the hand writing. I've never seen a Z writing sample in cursive either, to my knowledge there isn't one. But it is, again, interesting that G.P. wanted so badly to implicate O'Hare. Have you read O'Hare's article where he breaks his long held silence?

Crazy..lots of Z stuff bubbling up in the last few weeks..Perez..Gaikowski's DNA testing..O'Hare publishing an article. Z's greatest hits.......


In regards to Penn and how he relates to BOSTON,heres a youtube video about Joan Webster. Joan Webster was the woman from Harvard who was killed,and who Penn accused Michael Ohare of murdering. Watch the video and at 6:47 into the video,listen to what she says,and see who it sounds like:
[COLOR=#810081]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY)

Sounds like someone of note, for sure. Would love to see that composite..

Zobsessed
06-04-2009, 11:41 PM
ZOBSESSED,i wanted to send you a PM,but you have your settings setup so that I cant send you a private message. Please send me a PM,i would like to talk with you privately

I can't seem to PM you. I don't have that capability apparently. Let me work on that.

morf13
06-04-2009, 11:47 PM
I can't seem to PM you. I don't have that capability apparently. Let me work on that.

You have to go in the control panel function,and edit your settings

morf13
06-05-2009, 12:01 AM
Heres a neat coincidence regarding Penn,"In 1965, Penn entered the United States Army in Berlin , Germany and received basic training at Fort Dix, NJ." Fort Dix is 5 minutes from my house! Elvis Presley also processed thru Fort Dix

morf13
06-05-2009, 12:12 AM
Heres another Penn coincidence:
"In a recent appearance on a WE Television's "Case Reopened: The Zodiac", Gareth Penn wore glasses and a beard [ [http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/gareth.htm WE Photograph of Gareth Penn] ] . The Zodiac made reference to a disguise that could simply have been a beard in what is known as his 'bomb letter', i.e., where he was clean-shaven "like the description" on the wanted posters when he did his "thing," and having a full beard otherwise.

On the night of her murder, Riverside police connected Zodiac victim Cheri Jo Bates with a young man, about 25 years of age, wearing a brown beard. Hmmm,a beard,and about 25 years old, that would mean that the guy seen with the man that police connected with Bates would have beeb born aprox 1941...hmm,wait Penn was born in 1941!

You know what,rather than me list the tons of "coincidences" regarding Penn,just look here:
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/4972363

wv171
06-05-2009, 12:23 AM
Some of the Zodiac sites are very political too,and if you dont agree with the common beliefs of try to think for yourself,you get banned,or deleted.I dont need that childish stuff.We are all adults,and are entitled to our own ideas,thoughts and beliefs.


Very true..

See all you working together for 1 common cause and you done sloved 1 huge world wide mystery..

"V" people skill's are = Z ...,,, For Zero..... I never saw none myself, I even try to stay away from the guy.. I saw he get upset very easy real fast..I never ever seen so much banning before or after that bad experance in my whole life...

He ban me over such a simple question I asked and it was not even directed at him, It was to a other guy matter fact a Mod on there.. But it did not fit into his suspect neatly and real nice.. LOL..

So he banned me like we was kids in kindergarden... I told him where he could put his web site and even offer to help the process along... I am such a nice guy..

I meet some very nice people on that site ( No Joke Very Nice People) the small time I was there, All I can say what a shame & waste it was..

Back To Bussiness.

That Penn guy is looking interesting to me.. I got to do some checking into that guy..

Got any real good places to pick up more infro. that not allready posted??? Please no places I got to sign into only to get ban quickly :woohoo:

Glad to see all you have somewhere to go without getting banned every few day's ... I would go back but never sign it just to see if anything new I really kind of felt sorry for some of you..

Keep up the fine work on here and play nice now..

I check back in with you later..

Welcome and Good Luck to All...

morf13
06-05-2009, 12:33 AM
Here is a good one-stop-shop for all of your Penn needs:
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/4972363 (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/4972363)

Yeah,as far as T.V.'s site,its a great site,and like you said there are some nice people there too,and have some good ideas.But it's his way or the highway.Dont come up with your own ideas,or theories,and if you do,ur banned.His people skills suck! I get along with just about anybody too,but not him. I hope to God that one day Zodiac is proven to be someone that T.V. laughed off at some point,banning the person who brought the name up. That would make my day. And he thinks Gaikowski was Zodiac,please

morf13
06-05-2009, 01:29 AM
Great find on the photo. I have only seen a couple pics of him,and they were newer than 1980. WOW,take off the beard,and give em a haircut and he does look like the Z sketch. As far as radians,binary,etc,math and geometry are not my strongest areas,so i dont know anything about that stuff. But if you add his background,his connection to the area,his history of writing to papers,etc, he certainly makes an interesting person of interest.Once again,i am not saying he was Zodiac,and i am not trying to ruin his name or rep.By the way,here is a sample of what i am almost positive is Penn's handwriting(which i have to say does NOT match any Zodiac writing i ever saw,but then again i dont know that Zodiac ever wrote in cursive)

In regards to Penn and how he relates to BOSTON,heres a youtube video about Joan Webster. Joan Webster was the woman from Harvard who was killed,and who Penn accused Michael Ohare of murdering. Watch the video and at 6:47 into the video,listen to what she says,and see who it sounds like:
[color=#810081]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY)


Quoting myself here. Take a look at the letter written to the FBI that i believe was written by Penn. Look at the very top after the word Hoover. Do you see it? .........."CHEIF",which should be spelled CHIEF! Hmm.Zodiac used to do that as well. If this letter is from Penn,he's pretty smart and i could not imagine him spelling that word wrong,and i bet the FBI missed it. I didnt see any other words spelled wrong in the letter,wow

UPDATE: I am still trying to verify that the letter I believe to be fromPenn to the FBI dated 1971,is actually from Penn.In the meantime here are pics of definate Penn handwriting samples. One is a divorce agreement he signed,and the other is a diagram he drew

kline
06-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Gaikowski is an interesting POI. The one thing that bothers me is that after all of the scrutiny that he has received, the worst offense that he has been shown to have been involved in was the sending of a prank letter claiming that the governor of his state had died. He seems to have been a respected member of the SF alternative art community. Only one acquaintance (the mysterious "Purple Goldcatcher") seems to believe that Richard was Zodiac.

According to zodiackiller.com, Gyke's DNA is currently being tested against the Zodiac letters. Jack Tarrence is also being tested, but it has been many months since that test was initiated and it is suspected that a negative match has already been told to Kaufman but he has not announced the results in an effort to keep his fifteen minutes of fame going. Hopefully, someone's DNA will match and settle this thing once and for all.Amen to that.
Of course there seems to be some contention about how reliable the DNA from those stamps are...of course as Im sure you know there's contention about nearly every aspect of this case.
I still wouldnt be surprised if the truth be known if the Zodiac was NONE or the known POI's.
Ive always made the comparison that if the Manson Family had avoided detection broke up and faded to the four corners of the map people could have poured over the Tate Victims associates and peripheral characters in their lives until Gabriel blew his trumpet and never came within a mile of the truth.
There obviously were scores of dangerous weirdos in California in the late 60's and early 70's
There is so much about this case we dont know.
Its like the iconic image of the Zodiac with the hood and all....If Bryan Hartnell hadnt miraculously survived we wouldnt even know about that costume.
(And no I dont believe for a minute that he 'let' Hartnell live after plunging a knife into his back 6 times. I also think in light of the fetid and savage hands-on manner in which he slaughtered Cecelia Sheppard that the notion that murder was just a means to an end for an intellectual 'media terrorist' is as offensive as it is risable.)
Which leads one to speculate that there are in all probabilty huge aspects about this Killer that we are clueless about and without that knowledge we dont have the piece we need to identify him.

Zobsessed
06-05-2009, 04:29 PM
You have to go in the control panel function,and edit your settings

Morf, for whatever reason I don't have that option under my User CP. I go under the Edit Options section and I have all of the other stuff there about emails and what not but no way to turn on/off Pirvate Messaging. I apologize. I'll post my email here though if you would like to email me (it's my back up email)

buckeye99@gmail.com

morf13
06-05-2009, 09:09 PM
No problem,i will shoot you an email with the info i wanted to share with you.I am going to attach a word document that is pretty big,so if you cant open it,let me know.

Lurker Steve
06-06-2009, 01:18 PM
FYI, after finding out the identity of Mr. X (which didn't take that long with the clues) - it's really not worth the bother. He doesn't look like the pictures drawn - rather, he had the same hairstyle and thick glasses that everyone had at the time.

Plus he would have been 50 when the murders occured, and was working on some major business deals.

Some of the "facts" I can't find any verification on.

It's one of the sillier accusations I've seen - up there with Prince Albert for being Jack the Ripper.

morf13
06-06-2009, 01:56 PM
I agree about Mr. X,put him in the file with alot of other suspects

morf13
06-06-2009, 11:24 PM
ZODIAC Letter to the FBI...Take a look,do you think this is authentic?
The first letter is a verified letter from Zodiac. The second letter is a letter to the FBI that i found in their declassified files,along with a copy of the return envelope.The return address is blacked out,but the city it is post marked from is there,but hard to read.

I personally believe that the lower case letter "d" is a spot on match in both letters.The way it leans to the right,and has a bit of a loop at the top. In addition,in the letter to the FBI,he crosses out a word that looks like the word PUTTING,and writes over top of it the word ESTABLISHING. Zodiac on more than one occasion crossed out a word,and wrote another word over top of it.I also went on to read the following from the FBI regarding this letter:
"These are letters received in the Zodiac case.It has not been definately established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac"
Also if you look on the envelope that the letter was sent in to the FBI,the lower case letter "f" looks alot like Zodiac's as well. The envelope was addressed and mailed to the FBI office in Boston. And the return address as i said is blacked out but the postmark is visible,but hard to read.If anyone here is computer savy and could enlarge it and clean it up,it would be much appreciated.I wish i could determine who the letter is from.From the subject matter in the letter,it almost sounds like an investiagtor communicating with the FBI office, or a citizen trying to give the FBI some info,but there is no way to determine where/who sent it with the return address blacked out.I wish i could make out the postmark.Since it is 11 years after the last confirmed Zodiac attack,the postmark could be important if it is from another city or state,showing that perhaps Zodiac moved.

I think i know why the letter may have been sent to the office in Boston,and that makes me think of one person that may have written it to the Boston FBI,but i will not comment on it here at this time.

Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?

UPDATE: Full breakdown on the letter-
Heres the synopsis of the letter which was sent to the FBI Boston office.
1-dated 4/29/82
2-the sender name is blacked out
3-it appears that the writer is writing about a scheduled meeting they have with the FBI in Boston on 4/30/82(no way to know if this meeting ever occured)
4-Writer urges the FBI to forward info to the Washington DC office to check "handwriting" and "the___ binary theory" as a "plausible or non plausble" theory( as soon as i read binary theory i thought of Penn,but in the line above,the word before binary is blacked out.It's a shortword,and may be the word Penn,as in "penn binary theory". I believe Penns book was out by now,so it could have been anyone that knew of his theory or read the book.The fact that the writer chose to send it to the FBI Boston office,makes me think its related to the Ohare accusation,or someone playing games with the FBI)
5-Also mentions that the Harvard Police should be checking an airline manifest to see if _____ can be placed on a flight from Newark to Logan airport.Also says "he could have used an alias"
6-To my untrained eye,the lower case letter "d" and the lower case letter "f" look alot like Zodiac's writing.
7-In one of the lines,the writer crosses out a word ,and writes one in its place above it.(Zodiac did this same thing before)
8-The envelope that the letter was sent in is also shown,with return address blacked out.But the postmark is there,but very dark and hard to read.It also has a cute little message stamped on it that reads "crime prevention belongs to everyone"(sounds like the kind of smart comment that Zodiac was known to leave)
9-On the page after this letter,there is an FBI note that reads "these are letters received in the Zodiac case. It has not been definitely established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac" (Thats ironic because the writer wants the FBI to check out someones writing,and heres this form that makes it sound like the FBI thought this letter was possibly a Zodiac letter)
I am so convinced that this writing in this letter looks like Zodiac's,i am thinking about having a handwriting expert take a look. .

morf13
06-08-2009, 08:01 AM
I will say that a few people have told me,that they are discussing this letter,and topic over at the www.zodiackiller.com (http://www.zodiackiller.com) messageboard(i wouldnt know because i have been banned for like the 4th time from there and cant view the discussions,but i have had a couple people tell me about the post). Someone there supposedly saw it on the other site i posted this letter at, http://www.opordanalytical.com/phpBB3/index.php?sid=bc3eab8c40034cf57c3686cc199dad37 and then brought it up on the messageboard.

From what i have heard,there are some over there that have the opinion that the writing does look like it could be from Zodiac. I am sure Tom,the owner of that site zodiackiller.com, if he finds out that i brought up the topic,will immediately try to blow it off,and dismiss the possibility since he and I can't stand each other. If he does,then that means anyone over there that said it could be Zodiac's handwriting,better fall in line behind Tom,because if you dont agree with Tom,or want to have a mind of your own,you could be banned from his site,the way i was multiple times.I have finally given up on trying to be a member on his site,too much BS,from a guy that's considered to be a jerk by many.

morf13
06-09-2009, 02:40 PM
Alot of people and investigators believe that the Zodiac killed Donna Lass,a Tahoe nurse who disapeared on Sept. 6,1970 ,and was never found.

In addition,they also believe that Zodiac killed Robert Domingos and his fiance Linda Edwards on June 4,1963 on a secluded beach in Santa Barbara county.

Over the years,there has been a surprising number of unsolved murders at beaches in Calif.along with cases of murdered nurses.

If Zodiac was responsible for the Lass,and Domingos/Edwards murders,then perhaps he is responsible for many of the murders on beaches and those of nurses. (important to note that Ted Bundy was in Calif in the 60's and early 70's,and as I recall,he killed a few nurses)

I am trying to make a list here of various unsolved murders/attacks/disappearances in California as related to Beaches,and nurses.Perhaps some people here also know of some cases in Calif,or even sorrounding states that can be added to this list.


1963-(Domingos/Edwards)(Beach Attack)
In a Vallejo Times-Herald story that appeared on November 13, 1972, Santa Barbara Sheriff's Detective Bill Baker (ret.) theorized that the murders of a young couple in Santa Barbara County may have been the work of the Zodiac.
On June 4, 1963, five-and-a-half years before the Zodiac's first known murders on Lake Herman Road, high-school senior Robert Domingos and fiancée Linda Edwards were shot to death on a beach near Lompoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lompoc,_California), having skipped school that day for "Senior Ditch Day". Police believed that the assailant attempted to bind the victims, but when they freed themselves attempting to flee, he shot them repeatedly in the back and chest with a .22-caliber weapon. He then placed their bodies in a small nearby shack and tried, unsuccessfully, to burn it down.(the attempted tying of their hands sounds like the Zodiac attack 6 years later at Lake Berryessa,and the part about shooting them multiple times in the back ,and using Western Super X ammo,sounds like the Zodiac murder 5 years later of Betty Lou Jensen,who was shot multiple times in the back as she ran off)The attacker stacked the bodies in a seaside shack about 30 feet from the site where the two were first accosted, Linda face-up on top of Robert. The killer apparently tried to set the shack on fire.
The killer forced Linda to tie Robert,(just like the Zodiac berryessa attack) and it was while this was being done that the couple tried to flee. The killer knew how to shoot to kill, though.
No rape, no robbery. There seemed to be no discernible motive for the assault.
_________________________

1966-(Floyd C. Martin)(Beach secluded area attack)

The Modesto Bee
Tuesday, May 31, 1966
POLICE SEEK AID IN HUNT FOR STANFORD MURDERER
San Francisco (AP) Detectives appealed today for help from the anonymous persons who reported finding the body of a mysteriously slain Stanford University chemist.(Zodiac annonymously called in to report his attacks more than once)
Two telephone calls alerted police who found the body of Floyd C. Martin , 37, of Milipitas on a grassy plot near Lands End, where couples often park cars with a view of the Pacific.
Martin, senior laboratory technician specializing in dermatology at Stanford Medical Center, was found with a loaded and un-fired pistol in his pocket. a pair of binoculars around his neck and a small flashlight near his right hand. He had been shot through the neck.
His hands were stretched over his head.
An unidentified youth, who had been fishing nearby, said he had seen a blue station wagon parked in the lover's lane area of Merric Way and Point Lobos avenue about three hours before police found the body Sunday.


1967-(Anna J. Anderson) (Murdered Nurse)

Murdered Woman Is Identified 4-25-67
CARSON CITY, Nev. (UPI)-The body of a woman found in
the hills one week ago has been identified as Anna J. Anderson,
48, of Oakland, Calif., a nurse at the Richmond, Calif., General
Hospital. Sheriff Robert Humphrey said the case was definitely
a homicide.

1970-(Judith Ann Hakari)(murdered nurse)
The detective was referring
to Judith Ann Hakari,
23. a nurse who disappeared
March 6, 1970, and
whose body was found
April 26 in a shallow grave
in Placer County.
________________________________
1970-(Donna Lass)(Missing and presumed dead Nurse)
Donna Lass worked as a nurse at the Sahara Tahoe resort casino in Stateline, Nevada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateline,_Nevada). On September 6, 1970, she signed her last entry in her log book at 1:50 a.m. She was never seen leaving the Sahara, however her car was found at her apartment complex at Stateline. Lass, then 25, was never seen again.
The next day, Lass's landlord and employer both received calls from a man who told them that Lass was ill and had left because of a family emergency; the call proved a hoax.A month later, a paste-up postcard was received by the San Francisco Chronicle, hinting that Lass's disappearance was connected to the Zodiac Killer. Six months later, another paste-up postcard was received by the San Francisco Chronicle, the San Francisco Examiner, and the San Francisco Times. No evidence was ever uncovered to connect Donna Lass's disappearance with the Zodiac Killer
_______________________________
1970-(Carol Hilburn)(Dead XRAY tech.)
Carol Hilburn, a Sacramento X-ray technician, found beaten to death in a ravine on Friday, November 13,1970(no a nurse,but still in related medical field)
___________________
1970-(Multiple victims)(Beach murders)
7/6/70 Press-Courier, The
Two Youths Found
Hacked to Death
SANTA BARBARA, Calif. (AP)-
An early morning beach stroller
found two young men hacked to
death in their sleeping bags and
a Ihird critically injured with
multiple head gashes.
Investigators said the three apparently
were attacked as Ihey
slept on a beach next to Ihe
University of California at Santa
B a r b a r a . The blood-spattered
bodies were found al sunup Sunday.
The victims were identified as
Larry .Sieve Hess, 20, of La Grange,
Ind., and Thomas Victor Dolan, 17,
of Manhattan Beach, Calif.
Thomas M. Hayes, 19, Hermosa
Beach, Calif., was reported in crilical
condition but improving at
Goleta Valley Hospital aller five
hours of surgery.
Sheriff's deputies said Hayes
remained unconscious and was
under light security at the hospital.
Hayes' parents said Ihe youths
were on a trip lo San Francisco.
Officers said the death weapon
apparently was a halchel or meat
cleaver. The victims still had
money and watches, officers added.
Two other persons were killed
last Feb. 22 on a Sanla Barbara
County beach, 20 miles from the
latest murder scene. John Franklin
Hood, 24, of Oxnard, and Sandra
Garcia, 19, of Sanla Barbara, were
beaten and slabbed to death. Their murders remain unsolved
______________________
1970-(multiple Victims)(Beach murders)
From the PRESS TELEGRAM 1/18/71
Find Slain
Woman
on Beach
SANTA BARBARA «f) -
The nude body of a young
woman, apparently beaten
lo death, was found early
i oday on a beach near Isla
Visla. a student eommunil.
v adjacent to the University
of California at Santa
Rarbara.
II was the sixth slaying
;ill unsolved — on
beaches of that area in
Inss than ;i year.
Sheriff's Sgl. Rtiberl.
Prince, said the woman,
-still unidentified, had a cut
on the right side of her
head and her face was
"badly mutilated." Her
head had been covered
with a coat, Prince added.
The woman's death was
the third murder on the
Isla Vista beach in just
over six months, officers
said. Thomas V. Dnlan, 17,
Manhattan Beach, and Homer
Shadwick, H), a soldier
from Monterey, were
stabbed to death on the
beach last July. A ihml
youth, Thomas M. Hayes,
I!), also was slabbed in the
attack but survived.
John Franklin Hood, 24,
of Oxnard and his fiancee,
Sandra Garcia, 20, of Santa
Barbara, were bcalen
and slabbed to death on a
nearby beach last February
__________________________
1994-(Lindsay Cutshall and Jason Allen)(Beach murders)
Jason Allen and Lindsay Cutshall, two Christian camp counselors who planned to be married, were shot in their sleep in their sleeping bags as they camped on Fishhead Beach in Jenner, California. Their bodies were found Aug. 18, 2004.They were both shot in the head at close range.There was no sign of sexual assault or robbery
__________________________
Here is a link to a story about multiple unsolved murders up and down the west coast along the ocean: http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=17 (http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=17)


I have a few more articles about murders on Calif beaches around here some place.Once I find them,i will post them.Again,its possible that these victims are Zodiac victims,or that of another serial killer.If you have any cases that you know of that are similar in the Calif. area,please add them here

ShowerSinger
06-10-2009, 12:31 AM
www.cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html



Interesting, must read!

morf13
06-10-2009, 07:46 AM
www.cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html (http://www.cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html)



Interesting, must read!

Yeah i saw that. Be careful when Dennis Kauffman is involved. Have to tread lightly

cluznar
06-11-2009, 11:30 PM
You may be wrong about Guy Ward Hendrickson. I believe he is Zodiac and he also was a friend of Gareth Penn. Penn declared himself Zodiac in his book "Times 17" he took over as Zodiac after Guy Ward Hendrickson died. It is believed that Penn killed a young couple at Jenner Beach, Calif in 2004 and also killed two women near Seattle, WA in 2006.

morf13
06-12-2009, 02:14 AM
You may be wrong about Guy Ward Hendrickson. I believe he is Zodiac and he also was a friend of Gareth Penn. Penn declared himself Zodiac in his book "Times 17" he took over as Zodiac after Guy Ward Hendrickson died. It is believed that Penn killed a young couple at Jenner Beach, Calif in 2004 and also killed two women near Seattle, WA in 2006.

Cluznar,i believe Penn never said that he himself,was the Zodiac.I think he said he was a suspect at one time.(But there is no record of any department ever considering him a suspect)

Also,you are certainly entitled to your opinion about Hendrickson(i dont think he was the Zodiac) You are the 2nd person to tell me that Penn and Hendrickson knew each other.If they did,prove it to me please. I have yet to hear of any direct connection between them,or any relationship.

Lurker Steve
06-14-2009, 10:43 PM
"Over the years,there has been a surprising number of unsolved murders at beaches in Calif."

How so? Beaches are - at night, when I'm guessing most of these murders occurred:
- generally secluded. Not many people there to see a murderer, or hear a murder in progress.
- dark.
- moreover, I bet the people getting killed are intentionally looking for someplace secluded and away from others - lovers, or people who just need some time alone, night or day.

Beaches are a good spot for a serial killer to prey on others.

It's also a good spot to catch and kill your SO and their partner if you catch them cheating on you. "Must've been that thar Zodiac killer!"
- generally

morf13
06-14-2009, 10:54 PM
"Over the years,there has been a surprising number of unsolved murders at beaches in Calif."

How so? Beaches are - at night, when I'm guessing most of these murders occurred:
- generally secluded. Not many people there to see a murderer, or hear a murder in progress.
- dark.
- moreover, I bet the people getting killed are intentionally looking for someplace secluded and away from others - lovers, or people who just need some time alone, night or day.

Beaches are a good spot for a serial killer to prey on others.

It's also a good spot to catch and kill your SO and their partner if you catch them cheating on you. "Must've been that thar Zodiac killer!"
- generally

That's the thing,there is no motive,no robbery,no rape,nothing. The common thing is that these people are killed for no reason.That's what makes it seem like they could all be Zodiac victims(or that of a second serial killer)

Lurker Steve
06-14-2009, 11:38 PM
That's the thing,there is no motive,no robbery,no rape,nothing. The common thing is that these people are killed for no reason.That's what makes it seem like they could all be Zodiac victims(or that of a second serial killer)

Or a series of serial killers, it doesn't have to be one.

Serial killers generall either kill people who won't be missed or can otherwise be explained away (prostitutes, runaways, transients) or kill in an area where they won't get caught. If a killer tends towards the latter - lurking on a beach at night, especially in California, is something more than one killer is going to think of.

morf13
06-15-2009, 07:26 AM
Or a series of serial killers, it doesn't have to be one.

Serial killers generall either kill people who won't be missed or can otherwise be explained away (prostitutes, runaways, transients) or kill in an area where they won't get caught. If a killer tends towards the latter - lurking on a beach at night, especially in California, is something more than one killer is going to think of.


You are right,but some of these attacks are on the same beaches.I would find it unlikely that there are more than one serial killers on one beach at a given time.And you are right about some of these victims being "unmissed",but many of these people were NOT those types of people,(take for example the christian couple)they were in many cases,just in the wrong place at the wrong time.Some were simply sleeping in sleeping bags. When you are murdered in your sleeping bag,and not robbed or sexually assaulted,then there are two options.
1-Someone who had a beef with you killed you(unlikely)
2-Someone killed you for the plain old THRILL of it

SewingDeb
06-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Zodiac Claim to be Questioned By SF Police

A woman who in late April stood in front of dozens of people and claimed her father was the infamous Zodiac killer will be questioned by the San Francisco Police Department on Wednesday.

and

Perez said she saw a composite sketch of the Zodiac killer in August 2007 and recognized the man as her father, Guy Ward Hendrickson, who died in 1983.

San Francisco police Lt. Michael Staskos has reportedly received information from forensic experts who say handwriting, psychological and DNA evidence link Perez to her involvement in the Zodiac case and will question her Wednesday.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Zodiac-Claim-to-be-Questioned-By-SF-Police.html

morf13
06-15-2009, 03:10 PM
Zodiac Claim to be Questioned By SF Police

A woman who in late April stood in front of dozens of people and claimed her father was the infamous Zodiac killer will be questioned by the San Francisco Police Department on Wednesday.

and

Perez said she saw a composite sketch of the Zodiac killer in August 2007 and recognized the man as her father, Guy Ward Hendrickson, who died in 1983.

San Francisco police Lt. Michael Staskos has reportedly received information from forensic experts who say handwriting, psychological and DNA evidence link Perez to her involvement in the Zodiac case and will question her Wednesday.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Zodiac-Claim-to-be-Questioned-By-SF-Police.html


We will see,I will be shocked if she telling the truth

Zobsessed
06-15-2009, 03:16 PM
We will see,I will be shocked if she telling the truth

morf, do you read this the same way I do?


SAN FRANCISCO — A woman who in late April stood in front of dozens of people and claimed her father was the infamous Zodiac killer will be questioned by the San Francisco Police Department on Wednesday after DNA evidence linked her to the famous case.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12589866

It sounds as though they are implying that there truly is DNA evidence linking Perez (and her father) to Z's DNA (presumably from the stamps).

This would be the first I've heard of this..unless I'm totally misinterpreting the article.

morf13
06-15-2009, 03:42 PM
morf, do you read this the same way I do?



http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12589866

It sounds as though they are implying that there truly is DNA evidence linking Perez (and her father) to Z's DNA (presumably from the stamps).

This would be the first I've heard of this..unless I'm totally misinterpreting the article.


Like I said,i will be surprised.But with that being said,I wonder what peeked their interest to look deeper into her stepdad. Just like i wondered why they looked so long into Jack Tarrance,when his stepson presented "evidence". You would think that they could quickly rule out some of these people. So it makes me wonder if there is something there.

morf13
06-17-2009, 09:38 AM
ZODIAC Letter to the FBI...Take a look,do you think this is authentic?
The first letter is a verified letter from Zodiac. The second letter is a letter to the FBI that i found in their declassified files,along with a copy of the return envelope.The return address is blacked out,but the city it is post marked from is there,but hard to read.

I personally believe that the lower case letter "d" is a spot on match in both letters.The way it leans to the right,and has a bit of a loop at the top. In addition,in the letter to the FBI,he crosses out a word that looks like the word PUTTING,and writes over top of it the word ESTABLISHING. Zodiac on more than one occasion crossed out a word,and wrote another word over top of it.I also went on to read the following from the FBI regarding this letter:
"These are letters received in the Zodiac case.It has not been definately established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac"
Also if you look on the envelope that the letter was sent in to the FBI,the lower case letter "f" looks alot like Zodiac's as well. The envelope was addressed and mailed to the FBI office in Boston. And the return address as i said is blacked out but the postmark is visible,but hard to read.If anyone here is computer savy and could enlarge it and clean it up,it would be much appreciated.I wish i could determine who the letter is from.From the subject matter in the letter,it almost sounds like an investiagtor communicating with the FBI office, or a citizen trying to give the FBI some info,but there is no way to determine where/who sent it with the return address blacked out.I wish i could make out the postmark.Since it is 11 years after the last confirmed Zodiac attack,the postmark could be important if it is from another city or state,showing that perhaps Zodiac moved.

I think i know why the letter may have been sent to the office in Boston,and that makes me think of one person that may have written it to the Boston FBI,but i will not comment on it here at this time.

Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?


Any handwriting experts here that can look at this handwriting?

miles_draken
06-17-2009, 05:18 PM
If this really checks out and the DNA is a match as the article seems to indicate there are going to be a lot of people eating some Crow for all the slanderous things written about this woman.

Tom Voight - who seems more and more to me like a Zodiac Groupie than anything.

Graysmith- even though I have never heard him quoted as saying anything about this claim, he made quite a career for himself based on ALA being Z.

Dennis Kauffman - I thought he had some pretty compelling evidence proving his step dad as Zodiac but DNA would trump circumstantial evidence.

Many writers on blogs and crime posts - I haven't read very many people giving this woman support. I myself was skeptical as well, but hey, if it turns out she has the answers then great, one of the most maddening cases in American Crime could be solved.

I personally didn't think this case would get solved, but here is hoping it does, finally.

Cymro
06-17-2009, 06:04 PM
Miles - full disclosure, I also post at ZK.com and tend to favor Gaikowski among the existing suspects, although would lean towards Z being an unsub.

I have a great deal of respect for Steve Huff and would merely say that I'm not convinced by Debbie Perez at all:

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/05/deborah_perez_and_the_zodiacjf.php

To re-quote M William Phelps:


The chances of her being the Zodiac's daughter are a million to one--the chances of her being both JFK's daughter and the Zodiac's daughter are a gazillion to none

Of course if she is telling the truth then those kinds of memories will probably give you psychological problems, not to mention the disadvantage of sharing DNA with a serial killer in the first place. Nonetheless she, like Kaufman, seems to be too keen on the publicity and not keen enough on cooperating with LE to make me feel that she's just a little too hysterical to be credible.

Oh and have you heard about Pacific High School Zodiac? It clearly needs investigating even if I am not the guy to do it.

miles_draken
06-17-2009, 06:29 PM
none of the rest of it means anything if there is a DNA link between her and the Zodiac. that is hard science and proof that she is involved in some way, even it is as benign as writing letters for her step dad and licking the stamps. it doesn't matter how big a kook she is if it all matches scientifically, and judging from the story (i'm basing all this on that one story) the SFPD have made some sort of match.

gaikowski makes a good circumstantial fit, just like ALA, and countless others, but science will solve this, not a pretty theory. and as many coincidences as there are to point to kauffman, gaikowski, ALA, or the Easter Bunny, DNA will be the deciding factor. If it matches her, then look out, Zodiac may truly be unmasked.

I wonder what Tom Voight and Dennis Kauffman will do next if it is?

Mr. E
06-17-2009, 06:52 PM
How can there be DNA evidence between Perez and the Zodiac? I thought she was adopted? Here's an article that mentions it:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1698803/zodiac_killer_is_guy_ward_hendrickson.html



She alleges that Guy Ward Hendrickson, Perez's adopted father, killed one victim while she was waiting in a car, and that she herself sent some of the killer's infamous cryptic letters.

Cymro
06-17-2009, 06:59 PM
I doubt very much that Perez licked the stamps - if the DNA was female, I guess we'd know about it.

I don't know but I suspect that the DNA story comes from this press release (http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/daughter-zodiac-killer-questioned-sfpd/) which only confirms that DP is to be questioned and reasserts some of her existing claims.

The "nation's top [unnamed] experts" have endorsed her findings (including DNA) but the release ends by saying ""The proof will be in the forensic evidence and DNA once Deborah has her chance to have it analyzed." In other words there's not been an analysis yet and SFPD is calling her in either so they can avoid looking unconcerned by the case or possibly to pursue her for filing a false report.

I agree that if there is a match, it'll be big news (assuming that fewer than say, 1,000 people in a population of a few million could share those DNA markers).

thefragile7393
06-17-2009, 07:06 PM
Weird. I wonder if this is another case of shoddy reporting, since the link from Mr. E states that "No DNA or fingerprints were presented by Perez, but she plans to get forensic tests to prove her claim that she has the glasses of the Zodiac's last official victim, cab driver Paul Stine."
Ok, so there is no proof, as of yet, according to this.

Yet on Monday, SewingDeb provided a link, and from there: "San Francisco police Lt. Michael Staskos has reportedly received information from forensic experts who say handwriting, psychological and DNA evidence link Perez to her involvement in the Zodiac case and will question her Wednesday." Supposedly she was present at one murder and mailed a few of the letters, which meant she licked them and mailed them. That would link her, and hence her father, to this. So which is it??


Unfortunately the claims by those who have mental or emotional troubles are many times dismissed without much investigation (aka The Boy in the Box case, where I truely feel the woman who came forward with information was telling the truth). Of course, they are often dismissed for very good reasons--sadly there are attention-seekers or ones whose illness is causing people to have bizarre delusions. So I will be very interested to see where this goes. If there is forensic evidence and IF she can produce other things, such as the glasses, then they can work backwards to make everything fit. I too admit it sounds like someone who is ill is making outrageous claims but....who knows? RIght now I'd like to know which report is right, if there truely is DNA linking her or not.

thefragile7393
06-17-2009, 07:10 PM
I doubt very much that Perez licked the stamps - if the DNA was female, I guess we'd know about it. Would we though? If I'm mistaken, please forgive me but has it been the assumption it's been male this whole time? Has it ever been said that it was male DNA on the envelopes? IIRC, all I've heard is that there is some DNA on the envelopes that didn't match any known suspects (or it could have been a known suspect with someone else licking it). Perhaps it's just always been an assumption, or kept out of the public in case someone came and broke the case with knowing something that only the killer or someone closely aquainted would know.

Cymro
06-17-2009, 07:17 PM
Fragile - good point and that would actually provide a reason for SFPD to take Perez seriously. As stated above though I think the reporters have reworded the press release to make it more readable and in doing so have created a story about a DNA match where none exists (but the release is designed to provoke just that).

captaincook2
06-17-2009, 08:51 PM
How long does it normally take to test DNA and do the FBI release results to the public? This case has interested me since the 70's when I used to follow it in the newspapers... and that is in Australia so it is and has always been a world wide mystery I hope it is solved too... Must admit after listening to the audio tapes of Tarrance I thought it was him... Cud the delay be because they are building a case?

Zobsessed
06-17-2009, 09:37 PM
Would we though? If I'm mistaken, please forgive me but has it been the assumption it's been male this whole time? Has it ever been said that it was male DNA on the envelopes?

That's correct about the male DNA profile on the stamps. The Cold Case Files episode on the ZK case specifically says that an unidentified partial profile, of a male, was extracted from the stamps of authenticated Z correspondence. Not enough of a DNA profile to include people, but enough DNA evidence to exclude. Which they did immediately with ALA.

As has been said by myself and others...it is hard fact and science that will solve this thing, eventually.

miles_draken
06-17-2009, 11:36 PM
it would make sense that some things regarding this case were kept from the public. perhaps there was male DNA on envelope or stamp, but also female DNA. I have heard for years that they suspected Zodiac had someone else lick his stamps, what led them to that assumption? Perhaps this has been known due to 2 distinct DNA profiles lifted from the same letters. Just a guess.

morf13
06-18-2009, 07:47 AM
Weird. I wonder if this is another case of shoddy reporting, since the link from Mr. E states that "No DNA or fingerprints were presented by Perez, but she plans to get forensic tests to prove her claim that she has the glasses of the Zodiac's last official victim, cab driver Paul Stine."
Ok, so there is no proof, as of yet, according to this.

Yet on Monday, SewingDeb provided a link, and from there: "San Francisco police Lt. Michael Staskos has reportedly received information from forensic experts who say handwriting, psychological and DNA evidence link Perez to her involvement in the Zodiac case and will question her Wednesday." Supposedly she was present at one murder and mailed a few of the letters, which meant she licked them and mailed them. That would link her, and hence her father, to this. So which is it??


Unfortunately the claims by those who have mental or emotional troubles are many times dismissed without much investigation (aka The Boy in the Box case, where I truely feel the woman who came forward with information was telling the truth). Of course, they are often dismissed for very good reasons--sadly there are attention-seekers or ones whose illness is causing people to have bizarre delusions. So I will be very interested to see where this goes. If there is forensic evidence and IF she can produce other things, such as the glasses, then they can work backwards to make everything fit. I too admit it sounds like someone who is ill is making outrageous claims but....who knows? RIght now I'd like to know which report is right, if there truely is DNA linking her or not.


Speaking of SHOTTY reporting,there is an internet report that 2 different news agencies are reporting that evidence provided by Perez,matches evidence in the Zodiac case,and that SFPD is about to annouce it.

These internet reports are not always accurate,and I for one,dont believe it

morf13
06-18-2009, 12:09 PM
This morning, KRON7 and ABC7 both announced that her claims had been confirmed. But both stories were quickly removed from the website, leaving no trace that they had been there.

Wonder why? Sounds like the BS meter is ringing

thefragile7393
06-18-2009, 01:01 PM
Whaaat? Darn, I wish you could have gotten a picture capture before it was pulled. Did someone jump the gun....or is there another reason? I'm really really curious now. Ugh.

thefragile7393
06-18-2009, 01:08 PM
That's correct about the male DNA profile on the stamps. The Cold Case Files episode on the ZK case specifically says that an unidentified partial profile, of a male, was extracted from the stamps of authenticated Z correspondence. Not enough of a DNA profile to include people, but enough DNA evidence to exclude. Which they did immediately with ALA.

As has been said by myself and others...it is hard fact and science that will solve this thing, eventually.
Thank you for that....obviously I missed that. I do wonder if he is the one that did all the licking. At that time the technology didn't exist for DNA, so one would think there wouldn't be a reason to be so cautious. BUT....on the other hand, if he had a military background, he would know that the govt. was capable of coming up with pretty sophisticated stuff, and maybe he was overly paranoid and had someone else do the licking. Or maybe I'm really over-thinking this...I hate it when that happens.

SO what is known about this guy? Has he ever been heard of before this time? Even if some of her claims are off (did she only lick some, not all, envelopes maybe? I know, probably a stretch but I guess I'm over-thinking) are there circumstances to merit that this guy could be the real deal? The DNA claims may be off, but the police seem to give the appearance of taking her seriously, at least to a point...so my wondering is that maybe there are other things that, like the rest of the suspects, a lot of good circumstancial evidence but they are wanting fingerprints or DNA to really and definitively say "yes, this is the guy." Was he cremated? Can he be exhumed for DNA if not?

miles_draken
06-18-2009, 05:56 PM
According to the linked article below it was handwriting and psyhcological evidence that led experts to believe the police should interview her further. Could we be close to a resolution?

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/zodiac-killers-daughter-talks-to-police_1107023

Lurker Steve
06-18-2009, 10:08 PM
Have the police confirmed the claims that Perez's publicist is making?

I mean - this is the woman who claimed she was JFK's daughter.

ZodiacKiller.com's operator weighs in (as of a few weeks ago) here:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/zodiac-voigt-perez-2432402-gaikowski-claim


Perez contacted him more than a year ago, Voigt says. Perhaps her strongest claim was that her cousin is Jim Crabtree, the ex-husband of one of the known Zodiac victims. Were that true, and she could tie her father to that family, her story would become more plausible. Voigt, however, knows Crabtree. He called him. He'd never heard of Perez.
"I think she assumed Crabtree was dead and couldn't be checked out."
Another reason he believes she's lying is because details of her story conform with those in one of the best-selling books on Zodiac – a lot of which have been disproven since the book was published in 1986. Voigt thinks she was simply repeating the "myths" in the book, not realizing later sleuthing had debunked them.


Having a whole PR campaign lined up before making the claim sounds more like she wants some fame to me...

miles_draken
06-19-2009, 08:21 AM
Tom Voight is just as crazy as some of the people who come forward with info. This was the same guy offering BTK some crime scene pictures when he was trying to catch him a few years back.

morf13
06-19-2009, 08:24 AM
Tom Voight is just as crazy as some of the people who come forward with info. This was the same guy offering BTK some crime scene pictures when he was trying to catch him a few years back.


HAHA,Tom crazy?....haha:crazy:

miles_draken
06-19-2009, 12:39 PM
SO,

Has anyone heard or read anything on how the meeting with SFPD and Perez went on Wednesday? Really curious what is going on .

Zobsessed
06-19-2009, 03:07 PM
Thank you for that....obviously I missed that. I do wonder if he is the one that did all the licking. At that time the technology didn't exist for DNA, so one would think there wouldn't be a reason to be so cautious. BUT....on the other hand, if he had a military background, he would know that the govt. was capable of coming up with pretty sophisticated stuff, and maybe he was overly paranoid and had someone else do the licking. Or maybe I'm really over-thinking this...I hate it when that happens.

I do that all the time. I know next to nothing about Guy Hendrickson. Here's my thing...Z more than likely lived in Vallejo. Based on recent geographic profiling done by the likes of Kim Rossomo. I believe Hendrickson lived some 4 hours away from the area. Not likely that Zodiac would be driving that far to commit these crimes. These crimes were done for attention, period. Hence, the reason Z "graduated" to San Francisco, the big city.


SO what is known about this guy? Has he ever been heard of before this time? Even if some of her claims are off (did she only lick some, not all, envelopes maybe? I know, probably a stretch but I guess I'm over-thinking) are there circumstances to merit that this guy could be the real deal? The DNA claims may be off, but the police seem to give the appearance of taking her seriously, at least to a point...so my wondering is that maybe there are other things that, like the rest of the suspects, a lot of good circumstancial evidence but they are wanting fingerprints or DNA to really and definitively say "yes, this is the guy." Was he cremated? Can he be exhumed for DNA if not?

Hopefully the police will be able to get something out of this lady, but, it sounds as though, perhaps, they are just investigating her claims like they would any other. A lot of the 'hype' about these interviews is originating from blogs and press releases, not conventional media.

Zobsessed
06-19-2009, 03:09 PM
SO,

Has anyone heard or read anything on how the meeting with SFPD and Perez went on Wednesday? Really curious what is going on .

I've been checking Google News and searching "Zodiac" a couple of times a day. No real updates in the last day or so. I think I read somewhere that the SFPD are going to do a follow up interview with her. But that's it. No hard details.

Anything else your likely to read is just conjecture.

wv171
06-21-2009, 01:21 AM
Tom Voight is just as crazy as some of the people who come forward with info. This was the same guy offering BTK some crime scene pictures when he was trying to catch him a few years back.

Myself I can't understand how he got so many people fooled... He sure don't impress me and never had.. I saw through him real fast..

He changes suspect's just about as much as I change underware ( by the way I change that daily) ... And I seen him I personally feel make-up evidence to suite his favoite suspect of that time period in his life.. If someone ask him where he got it?? His reply is allways the same, He has special infromation that nobody else has access too except hisself..

Don't get me wrong the guy is open to express his opinion and I don't mean this to be a T.V. bashing post, This more I been there and experance this type of action from him personally first hand and I don't want 1 of our fine members of this group to have to go through what I and a lot other posters on this site done been through with this self-appointed expert ..

But I get so tired of him calling hisself a expert on the Zodiac Case and the media will repete him... I feel this is so far from the truth its allmost comical..

Myself Personally I think he has hurt this case a lot more than he ever try to help it.. The thought has enter my mind he just use the Zodiac case to advance his huge egomania problem..

Plus I don't care who you are or who you think you are... You never I repete Never call family members of the victims bad names , Such a Dope Head, They are well known for Lying and you can't believe one word they say.. And many many other post I read where he attack the Poor Victims family members or living Victims of this terrible crime spree was totally uncalled for in my book..

Poor Victim's family and People lucky to survive there vicious attacks should never be put through that in a public forum.. Action like that I just about bet you on here they ban you real quick posting reply's to family members like the way he do on "His Site"

I am very suprised one of them not sue the pant's off of him in the court system and I feel they could very well win a case against him very easy..

I never forget a Sister of one of the victims was on his site posting, There was someone following her for years and still following her and she was really very afraid for her own life at that time..

And he tore into her called her a well know lyer and other terrible thing's...... I felt so sorry for her when I read what he posted as a reply to her post..

I feel I am not the only one feel's this way that post on this site....

I guess what I am really trying to say to our readers of this post is take anything T.V. has said or say in the future as not a correct fact in this case and give a very lot of thought to it, Before you spend a lot of your personal time investigating one of his lead's .... It more than likely be a total waste of your time...

You know something be very nice I feel...... Any of your poster's on here got a e-mail address or someway to get intouch with any family members or alive victims???

I think that be very nice to try to get some Family Members to check us out and hopefully start posting on here with us ....

Give them a forum where they would not have to fear being attacked and insulted on here... I would love to hear there side of there story .... I bet they could really add to this thread and our investigation into this terrible crime ...

Thank's

morf13
06-23-2009, 07:32 PM
Hmmmm

thefragile7393
06-24-2009, 02:19 PM
I take it there's been no updates at all....I'm curious as all get out now.

morf13
06-24-2009, 04:22 PM
Probably wont be any updates,i'll bet that theres no connection there

morf13
06-28-2009, 09:47 AM
I've been checking Google News and searching "Zodiac" a couple of times a day. No real updates in the last day or so. I think I read somewhere that the SFPD are going to do a follow up interview with her. But that's it. No hard details.

Anything else your likely to read is just conjecture.

Heres a news conference held by Perez's stepssister( Guy Hendrickson's BLOOD daughter)

http://cbs13.com/video/?id=56117@kovr.dayport.com (http://cbs13.com/video/?id=56117@kovr.dayport.com)

Lurker Steve
06-28-2009, 01:02 PM
Sounds like Perez is a nutjob, and the SF police and the FBI think the same thing.

Maybe she should go back to claiming to be JFK's daughter.

thefragile7393
06-28-2009, 02:52 PM
To play devil's advocate briefly, BTK really blended in and concealed his past. Other past criminals of varying types have held upstanding lives while on the run hiding. It's also not unusual for several people in the same family to have differing memories of someone (a la Joan Crawford and her children).

Buuuuuuuuut with all that said...really dosn't make Perez look good at all. The burden of proof is on her.

morf13
06-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Perez's story is a DEADEND!

Dr. Doogie
06-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Heres a news conference held by Perez's stepssister( Guy Hendrickson's BLOOD daughter)

http://cbs13.com/video/?id=56117@kovr.dayport.com (http://cbs13.com/video/?id=56117@kovr.dayport.com)


I attended the press conference by Janice Hendrickson and a couple of people connected to Dennis Kaufman's claim of his step-father being Zodiac. Besides two local TV cameramen and family members of the participants, I was the ONLY person in the audience. I filmed the entire conference - search "Zodijack Press Conference" at youtube for the six-part video. (Please forgive the crappy audio.)

Dennis Kaufman called the press conference, then wanted to postpone when Michael Jackson died and Kaufman bailed out when he realized that he probably would not get the coverage that he wanted. But what Kaufman didn't realize is that there was no news in the press conference - except that the fallout of the conference has lead to Nannette Barto (his handwriting "expert") and Steven Dewhurst being tossed out of Kaufmanland. The wheels are falling off of Kaufman's BS claims.

morf13
07-04-2009, 04:38 PM
This evening marks the 40th Aniv of the Ferrin/Mageau Blue rock springs attack by Zodiac

morf13
07-04-2009, 06:21 PM
ZOBSESSED,did you get the PM i sent you? Let me know

morf13
07-05-2009, 10:39 PM
He's not a new suspect by any stretch of the imagination,he actually was one of the first.

Have you heard of this suspect? Or did you possibly know him from the Vallejo area? He has already been publicly named,so i will post his name here. I am not saying he was the Zodiac killer,but he's really interesting.
William Joseph Grant,or Bill Grant ? He was the man named "andy walker" in Greysmith's Zodiac book. Please read this report about him here,along with a photo/drawing? of him right above the report:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Walker1.html (http://www.zodiackiller.com/Walker1.html)

It says in the report,that this guy drove a White chevy at the time of the Zodiac attacks.I am hoping that this guy might ring a bell with some of the Vallejo area poeple on this forum. As many of you know,i have been pursuing the angle that the Lake Herman Rd attacks held some potentially big clues to the identity of Zodiac.Here is some addl info i posted:
In the police report,Grant was said to have a white chevy. How about this info regarding the Lake Herman Rd attack from the site,

http://www.se7en-x.com/zodiac/lakeherman.htm (http://www.se7en-x.com/zodiac/lakeherman.htm)

9 p.m. - Sharon walked David and Betty Lou out to their car. They didn't say where they were going next.
At about the same time, out on Lake Herman Road, just east of the Vallejo City limits, two racoon hunters, who had just parked their truck off the road, noticed a white four-door hardtop '60 Chevrolet Impala parked by the entrance to the Benicia Water Pumping Station

10 p.m. - Bingo Wesher, a sheepherder at the Old Borges Ranch, was checking his sheep in the area east of the Benicia pumping station when he noticed a white Chevrolet Impala sedan parked by the entrance to the station. He also saw the racoon hunters' '59 Ford truck

And from the site, http://dcuaresma33.spaces.live.com/Blog ... !496.entry (http://dcuaresma33.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!6300C37103D2AEB4!496.entry)

Two raccon hunters spotted a late model Chevy parked outside the Benicia Water Pump House the same time,except there was no occupant(s) inside. A heavyset man with a military crewcrut with horned rimmed glasses ,wearing navy blue nylon jacket and dark clothing was spotted with a pistol on the Borges Ranch ,what appeared to be target shooting. A witness years later,told author Robert Graysmith that a man with the same description gave him the chills,before nightfall settled in because the lone individual was staring at the witness a few hundred yards down a country hillside. Earlier on at the Lake Herman Pump House,just prior to the arrival of Faraday and Jensens,another couple parked in that same location only to outrun another vehicle chasing them at high speed south towards the Benicia Freeway onramp

Heres more on that chase-
the person who was chased was named Crow.He tells his story here:
http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.co ... lated.html (http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/jensen_faraday_related.html)

Heres more info about the man "william Joseph Grant" or "bill Grant":
age 89,DOB 3/6/20,Fairfield Calif. So i am assuming this is the same ,and correct guy. And the interesting news is,
There are 19 Criminal Check HITS for all William J Grant in the state of CA.
#1-
OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: B93F0888 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COUNTY CHARGED: Riverside DISTRICT: RIVERSIDE SUPERIOR
OFFENSE DATE: 04/15/1993 OFFENSE COUNTY: Riverside OFFENSE DESCRIPTION: 192(C)(1) PC 20001 VC

#2-
William Joe Grant
CA
SOURCE: CA

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: BA 989858 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COUNTY CHARGED: Los Angeles DISTRICT: CENTRAL SUPERIOR
OFFENSE DATE: 06/23/1989 OFFENSE COUNTY: Los Angeles
OFFENSE DESCRIPTION: H 11355

#3-
IDENTIFICATION
William Joseph Grant
CA
SOURCE: CA
DOB: 12/15/1934(THIS MADE ME THINK OF THE "today is my birthday and i need to kill" since his bday is so close to the supposed call to Belli's home,but his bday does NOT match the 3/6/20 bday of the W.J.G. i ran,so it may be a coincidence))
OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: 60705DKWG - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COUNTY CHARGED: Riverside DISTRICT: RIVERSIDE SUPERIOR
OFFENSE DATE: 01/16/2007 OFFENSE COUNTY: Riverside

There are several offenses/court cae#'s that came up in his background check,and several offshoots of that name such as WILLIAM JOSHUA GRANT/ WILLIAM JOHN GRANT/ WILLIAM JAMES GRANT,etc. I am not sure if these are due to typos,or if he used aliases,or if somehow the reports is also pulling up info for different WILLIAM GRANTS. But most of the reports seem to have a connection to RIVERSIDE

In addition there is also a SANTA BARBARA offense(Domingos/Edwards connection?)

There are also multiple civil judgements regarding his name as well.

There are 2 mailing addresses on file,both in Fairfield,one is a PO BX and the other a residential address. I just mapquested it,and Fairfield is a whopping 17 miles from Vallejo and 32 miles from San Fran!! . He has lived here for several years. His wife passed away a couple years ago. At the time of the Zodiac attacks he lived in Suisun City,also about 17 miles from Vallejo.I wanted to also run an Employment background check,but you must signoff on the fact that the person has given you written authorization to do an employment background check(which obviously he has not) Lastly,there is no date of death record,so i assume he is still alive.

Wow,i wish i could dig up 3 things,his employment records,(i know he was a real estate salesman in Fairfield,CA.)his DMV records(did he in fact own a white Chevy back in the late 60's?) and lastly gun ownership recorder(did any guns he owned match those used in the Zodiac attacks?)

UPDATE: found this regarding aliases- Subject Name: William J Grant
Listed Aliases: William J Grant, Bill J Grant, Marion M Grant
Listed Dates of Birth: Mar 06, 1920
Listed Ages: 89

Can anyone add any info about this guy?? Anyone have any DMV connections to see if he ever owned a white chevy impala?

I also got to thinking that his name fits in with a cipher that Zodiac mailed. From 4/20/70 Zodiac wrote "by the way have you cracked the last cipher i sent you? My name is ____ (followed by 13 symbol cipher).
Two possible solutions are:
my name is WILLIAMJOSEPH or my name is WILLIAM_GRANT.


And at the end of the 3 part cipher mailed to the papers,there are 18 leftover symbols,that have never been solved. The name WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT has 18 letters.

His name fits into both of these ciphers,what are the odds??

Take a listen to these youtube videos. They are of a retired police officer named Lyndon Lafferty who called into a talkshow to speak about Grant,AKA Andy Walker.(coincidentally,it was falsely reported that Gareth Penn was the caller pretending to be a police officer) Some very interesting stuff he has to say:
pt.1 [COLOR=#810081]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-u8nCKMGM[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
pt.2 [COLOR=#810081]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CspUUS10 ... re=related[/COLO"]YouTube - Savage & ZODIAC KILLER CALLER PT2[/COLO"]YouTube - Savage & ZODIAC KILLER CALLER PT2

[COLOR=#810081]I have been told that Grant was cleared as a Zodiac suspect thru Handwriting and Fingerprints,and in addition,he was out of town supposedly during one of the Z attacks,but i cant verify that,and havent seen any police reports clearing him.

I have also gathered that there was a BILL GRANT who was a member of ......." [COLOR=#bf0000]DIABLO NUMISMATIC SOCIETY" You remember Zodiac mentioning Mt Diablo,right?

morf13
07-10-2009, 08:55 PM
where is everyone at? No Z case fans?

Lurker Steve
07-11-2009, 12:30 AM
I also got to thinking that his name fits in with a cipher that Zodiac mailed. From 4/20/70 Zodiac wrote "by the way have you cracked the last cipher i sent you? My name is ____ (followed by 13 symbol cipher).
Two possible solutions are:
my name is WILLIAMJOSEPH or my name is WILLIAM_GRANT.


And at the end of the 3 part cipher mailed to the papers,there are 18 leftover symbols,that have never been solved. The name WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT has 18 letters.

His name fits into both of these ciphers,what are the odds??


RONALD_REAGAN and RONALDWILSONREAGAN. And he was in California back then, wasn't he? ;)

The average length of a first/given name is a bit under 6 characters, and the average length of a last name a bit OVER 6 characters, so someone's name length fitting both ciphers is going to be pretty common.

morf13
07-12-2009, 03:57 PM
RONALD_REAGAN and RONALDWILSONREAGAN. And he was in California back then, wasn't he? ;)

The average length of a first/given name is a bit under 6 characters, and the average length of a last name a bit OVER 6 characters, so someone's name length fitting both ciphers is going to be pretty common.

Let me make it even more clear:
In the first confirmed Z letter sent to the papers on 7/31/69(the 3 part cipher),zodiac said, "IN THIS CIPHER IS MY IDENTITY". Well as we know,the cipher was solved,and one of the lines said "I WILL NOT GIVE YOU MY NAME BECAUSE YOU WILL TRY TO SLOW DOWN OR STOP MY COLLECTING OF SLAVES FOR MY AFTERLIFE". At this point everyone threw up their hands,and said,wow he lied to us he didnt give us his identity. But wait,not so fast. There were 18 symbols left over. Some people thought that they symbols represented the same letters in the cipher,and that if you scrambled or rearranged the letters,you would get a name,like Robert Emmet the hippie,etc. Other people thought that those 18 symbols were simply leftovers,to give the cipher a nice even appearance.

I started thinking,perhaps,that the last 18 symbols were a separate cipher,and the symbols represented different letters then in the top cipher. Also,that the letters in this second cipher,once rearranged,WOULD show his IDENITY(as Z put it,lets face it he really wanted to tell people who he was,but he also wanted to play a game,so he couldnt just state his name plainly,and i am sure that even though he wanted to tell people who he was,he didnt want to go to jail)So i started to tear thru it. Now let me tell you something. I am in no means great with puzzles,codes,etc,i dont have the patience. But here is what i discovered.

1-there are 18 symbols leftover at the end of the 3 part cipher
2-Out of the 18 symbols,there are 15 different symbols(3 are repeated once)
3-The name WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT has 18 letters,there are 15 different letters in his name (3 are repeated once)

What are the odds that this could work,and git ,and match up perfectly. Out of the thousands of people investigated,how many had 18 letters in their name,with 3 of which repeating? I would bet the farm,only one. WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT. This was a guy that looked like the Z sketches,that owned a white chevy like the one seen on Lake Herman Rd the night of the attack there,that had months of military code training,that was said to have known Darlene Ferrin.Now throw in this cipher matching his name perfectly,and its right there in front of you,its a bit overwhelming!

If you think the 18 symbol cipher is still just a coincidence,heres some more. In the 4/20/70 letter to the papers,Zodiac wrote "By the way have you cracked the last cipher i sent you ? My name is_______" (followed by 13 symbols)
The name WILLIAMJGRANT fits perfectly-it too has 13 symbols. Is this all a coincidence? I think its too much to be a coincidence

Lurker Steve
07-14-2009, 12:29 AM
1-there are 18 symbols leftover at the end of the 3 part cipher
2-Out of the 18 symbols,there are 15 different symbols(3 are repeated once)
3-The name WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT has 18 letters,there are 15 different letters in his name (3 are repeated once)

What are the odds that this could work,and git ,and match up perfectly. Out of the thousands of people investigated,how many had 18 letters in their name,with 3 of which repeating? I would bet the farm,only one.

Except the cipher isn't that simple. You're basically saying that it is a simple substitution cipher - which is the only way that the distribution of letters (15 unique of 26, 3 repeats) would be exactly the same as WJG's.

Which is absurd. That's the kind of cipher you'd see in grade school. The reason is related to your argument: given enough plaintext, I can look at letter frequency and crack the code. This is something that hasn't been cracked in DECADES (assuming it is even real ciphertext and not just random garbage, but I'll get to that later.)

The whole idea of good encryption is to make it impervious to attacks like this. Zodiac used a substitution cipher of sorts for the cracked letter, but he used more than 26 symbols to make it difficult to do your standard frequency analysis. He also used other tricks like misspelling words to make it harder to decrypt.

I would not be surprised if the final 18 letters were thrown in just to play havoc with the frequency analysis; in fact, there is even a term for this in cryptography - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_(cryptography) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_%28cryptography%29). That technique has been used for a very long time, and it's still being used today in block ciphers. Zodiac would know that.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the 13 letter cipher was garbage that was meant to keep people busy. There's just not enough plaintext to work with. Zodiac would also know that.

I do think it is a coincidence.

I also don't think Zodiac told us who he was in any of his ciphers. He even said that he wouldn't tell us his name in one of his ciphers, http://www.zodiackiller.com/ExaminerCipher.html.

morf13
07-16-2009, 04:37 PM
Except the cipher isn't that simple. You're basically saying that it is a simple substitution cipher - which is the only way that the distribution of letters (15 unique of 26, 3 repeats) would be exactly the same as WJG's.

Which is absurd. That's the kind of cipher you'd see in grade school. The reason is related to your argument: given enough plaintext, I can look at letter frequency and crack the code. This is something that hasn't been cracked in DECADES (assuming it is even real ciphertext and not just random garbage, but I'll get to that later.)

The whole idea of good encryption is to make it impervious to attacks like this. Zodiac used a substitution cipher of sorts for the cracked letter, but he used more than 26 symbols to make it difficult to do your standard frequency analysis. He also used other tricks like misspelling words to make it harder to decrypt.

I would not be surprised if the final 18 letters were thrown in just to play havoc with the frequency analysis; in fact, there is even a term for this in cryptography - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_(cryptography) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_%28cryptography%29). That technique has been used for a very long time, and it's still being used today in block ciphers. Zodiac would know that.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the 13 letter cipher was garbage that was meant to keep people busy. There's just not enough plaintext to work with. Zodiac would also know that.

I do think it is a coincidence.

I also don't think Zodiac told us who he was in any of his ciphers. He even said that he wouldn't tell us his name in one of his ciphers, http://www.zodiackiller.com/ExaminerCipher.html.

Zodiac said "in this cipher is my IDENTITY" Then when deciphered,it said, "i will not give you my name" But hold on,isnt the cipher,the entire BODY of what he wrote? Not just the first part of the code,but the entire code? The last 18 symbols may be just filler to make the cipher look nice and even. But it may include his "identity". Also,you have to assume that perhaps Zodiac did want to tell people who he was,but he didnt want to go to jail. So he put hid ID in the last 18 symbols. But those last 18 symbols may have stood for completely different letters then they stood for in the top part of the cipher. In addidtion,for added security,he also mad it into a anagram,in which the letters would have to be shuffled around to ID him.

Again lets assume for a second that its possible that the last 18 symbols are his ID. There are 18 spaces,with 15 different symbols. Again,WILLIAMJOSEPHGRANT has 18 spaces with 15 different letters. If its a coincidence,its a big one.

By the way,i had thought that it was nearly impossible to put someone elses name in there that also had 18 spaces with 15 different letters. Then someone pointed out to me, TheodoreJKaczynski .

That name has 18 spaces with 15 different letters!:eek:

As you may know Ted K. has been suspected by some as being Zodiac. But he wasnt trained for several months in Military code training,Grant was. Grant also taught it. Grant lived close to the area of the Zodiac murders in 1969. Ted K. had moved by this time from Calif. to Illinois.

I am not saying Grant is Zodiac. But he was a suspect at one point,that met some interesting common points with Zodiac. I have heard that he was cleared as a suspect,but cant find conclusive proof of how & when this happened.

He also had ties to the SIERRA CLUB,like Zodiac mentioned in a letter. He lived on a property at the time of the attacks that was lined with tall pine trees,and you would have to "peek thru the pines" to see out to the road."peek thru the pines" was mentioned by Zodiac,or i should say,in a mailing purported to be from Zodiac. Also,this property would flood out when it rained hard. In one of Zodiacs letters, he said "i was swamped out by the rain". One thing i am trying to verify,is whether this home had a basement,since zodiac mentioned having a "basement for future use" in one of his letters.

Throw all this stuff into a pot,and it makes an interesting soup!

Add in the fact that he owned a white chevy at the time of the Zodiac attacks. A white Chevy was reportedly seen staked out in front of Darlene Ferrins home,and a white chevy was seen by MULTIPLE WITNESSES on Lake Herman Rd,at the very place where the Faraday/Jensen murders happened,over an hour before the murders happened.

freshwater
07-17-2009, 01:31 PM
Kaczynski is NOT Zodiac. He is most definitely not the type of person who wants to confront people up close and personal. He was a shy, distant loner who wanted to hurt people from afar. Besides, I don't think he was ever as overweight as the descriptions of Zodiac.

morf13
07-17-2009, 02:20 PM
Kaczynski is NOT Zodiac. He is most definitely not the type of person who wants to confront people up close and personal. He was a shy, distant loner who wanted to hurt people from afar. Besides, I don't think he was ever as overweight as the descriptions of Zodiac.


Freshwater,i agree with you! BUT,Grant WAS a bit overweight like people said Zodiac was.

morf13
07-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Some real good input here from everyone in this Zodiac thread.

If you like the Zodiac topic,come over to: http://zodiaczee.50.forumer.com/index.php

We work as a "team" to unlock motivations,background,and eventually the ID of Zodiac. Feel free to talk about theories or suspects,without fear of getting banned. The only rule,is be courteous and respectful of other members,even if you dont agree with them.

Richard
07-17-2009, 03:31 PM
Except the cipher isn't that simple. You're basically saying that it is a simple substitution cipher - which is the only way that the distribution of letters (15 unique of 26, 3 repeats) would be exactly the same as WJG's.

Which is absurd. That's the kind of cipher you'd see in grade school. The reason is related to your argument: given enough plaintext, I can look at letter frequency and crack the code. This is something that hasn't been cracked in DECADES (assuming it is even real ciphertext and not just random garbage, but I'll get to that later.)

The whole idea of good encryption is to make it impervious to attacks like this. Zodiac used a substitution cipher of sorts for the cracked letter, but he used more than 26 symbols to make it difficult to do your standard frequency analysis. He also used other tricks like misspelling words to make it harder to decrypt.

I would not be surprised if the final 18 letters were thrown in just to play havoc with the frequency analysis; in fact, there is even a term for this in cryptography - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_(cryptography) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padding_%28cryptography%29). That technique has been used for a very long time, and it's still being used today in block ciphers. Zodiac would know that.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the 13 letter cipher was garbage that was meant to keep people busy. There's just not enough plaintext to work with. Zodiac would also know that.

I do think it is a coincidence.

I also don't think Zodiac told us who he was in any of his ciphers. He even said that he wouldn't tell us his name in one of his ciphers, http://www.zodiackiller.com/ExaminerCipher.html.


You make some very interesting comments about Cyphers/Codes.

It is very true that "filler" is used in encoding messages. This "filler" is usually put in at the end of the message to make it of a more uniform length with other messages. This is done so that the importance of a message cannot be seen simply by the length of text.

The standard practice is to put all of your filler at the END of the message. This way, the Communications person who is de-coding the message can get the meat of the message decoded before running into a lot of nonsense letters or words. Decoding takes time, even when you already have the key, and in a tactical situation, you do not have time to waste.

There was no law or regulation regarding when and where to use filler, but in actual practice, it was almost always used at the end of a message. If you put it in early, you would definitely hear about it later!

It is, however, possible (although maybe not probable) that Zodiac was using a second code, or a shifting step within his starting code to "sign" his messages. The answer to this might be seen if this was a consistant pattern or habit of his in other messages.

Each message had a different code which needed to be cracked, although he did use the same symbols, letters, etc. Did any of the other cracked code keys fit with any of the undecipherabloe words?

I personally think that he saw his "identity" as THE ZODIAC, rather than as his real name.

justthinkin
07-17-2009, 08:52 PM
I am by no means anywhere close to being an expert on the Zodiac, and don't have it in me to want to be. Thought I'd make that clear first. : )

Anyhoo, just got through reading Christopher Farmer's take on him. I'm totally impressed with his ability to decode the Zodiac's messages, and he makes a great case for Penn being the Z. Then I read that Penn didn't work at Tiburon Library until 1991. : (

So how does he answer this discrepancy?

Morf13, bud you are everywhere there's talk of the Z. Can you spell obsession? LOL.

morf13
07-17-2009, 10:17 PM
I am by no means anywhere close to being an expert on the Zodiac, and don't have it in me to want to be. Thought I'd make that clear first. : )

Anyhoo, just got through reading Christopher Farmer's take on him. I'm totally impressed with his ability to decode the Zodiac's messages, and he makes a great case for Penn being the Z. Then I read that Penn didn't work at Tiburon Library until 1991. : (

So how does he answer this discrepancy?

Morf13, bud you are everywhere there's talk of the Z. Can you spell obsession? LOL.

JUSTTHINKIN, i am hooked! :) I fully admit it. This case reeled me in and wont let me go. Theres so many twists and turns,better than any crime fiction book you could read. Sometimes i just want to say ENOUGH!

As far as Chris Farmers site,i have to admit,all of the analyticl stuff,IS NOT my cup of tea,or my specialty. I read that long boring report,and was lost 5 minutes in. I dont know if Farmers report is way off,or is dead on. I can tell you this,PENN is a good "person of interest" who at one time said that he was an actual suspect. I have found some really good circumstancial stuff regarding Penn,but cant find anything conclusively linking Penn to Zodiac. As a matter of fact,its downright hard to find alot of info on him,but he is on my back burner as a POI.

justthinkin
07-18-2009, 12:01 AM
Seems like it would be easy enough to obtain dna from Penn to prove or disprove Farmer's case for Penn as the Z.

I think the Z is still alive, and on his death bed he's going to confess. He'll want to receive full credit, and won't want people left guesssing as to who the Z was. JMO.

I edited out the rest because I really haven't accumulated enough knowledge on the subject.

morf13
07-18-2009, 01:26 AM
I agree that Zodiac may have a plan for his name to be revealed after his death. What fun would it be to play his game if nobody knew it was him that won it?

By the way,Farmers sire opord,is DEAD! Very slow,hardly any posts. Heres the newest site where we discuss the zodiac case along with various theories,suspects,etc
http://zodiaczee.50.forumer.com/index.php?sid=b59697bf704d56894cd2d27a0640e32e

Hope to see u there!

morf13
07-21-2009, 02:43 PM
For any of you that may be interested in the Zodiac case,and theories,suspects,etc, please join us at:
http://zodiaczee.50.forumer.com/index.php?sid=c102077283bf918ce668668f290fc75a (http://zodiaczee.50.forumer.com/index.php?sid=c102077283bf918ce668668f290fc75a)

gaia227
09-21-2009, 12:38 PM
http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=95


I was just reading the entry on True Crime Diary about the cold case that was recently solved using DNA which led LE to a 76 yr old, infirm man. He had murdered a young couple while they were in their car. He suspected in another similar murder of a young couple. Michelle (the author of TCD) brings up some similaries between this guy and the Zodiac which are compelling. Their ages fit, they are the same height, this guy lived in California for a time and he was in prison at Deer Lodge - the Zodiac mentioned being an escapee from Deer Lodge prison.

morf13
03-09-2010, 04:22 PM
Wanted to send out an invite to people interested in the Zodiac case. Join our new forum to discuss teh Zodiac case, theories, and clues. Join a Zodiac chat on our site. Heres the link:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/login.forum?connexion

morf13
06-27-2010, 01:35 AM
Anyone hear a rumor about a high school teacher that was a Zodiac suspect (not Arthur Leigh Allen) outside of Vallejo?

Supposedly, this teacher held an assembly with students proclaiming his innocence. I think the teachers initials, or the school's initials were DG or DGH, something similar.

Anyone have anything on this? Please pm me if so. thanks

southerngal
07-01-2010, 11:37 PM
Anyone hear a rumor about a high school teacher that was a Zodiac suspect (not Arthur Leigh Allen) outside of Vallejo?

Supposedly, this teacher held an assembly with students proclaiming his innocence. I think the teachers initials, or the school's initials were DG or DGH, something similar.

Anyone have anything on this? Please pm me if so. thanks


Are you thinking of Don Harden? he is the high school teacher who along with his wife cracked the first code.

morf13
07-02-2010, 10:25 PM
Are you thinking of Don Harden? he is the high school teacher who along with his wife cracked the first code.

No, someone else mentioned the same thing to me, but I am looking for someone else

prettyinpink
07-02-2010, 10:37 PM
where is everyone at? No Z case fans?

Hi Morf
I was interested in this case as a teen, and recalled reading a Reader's Digest saying it was Eddie Seda. But, if its still open, I am up for getting back into it. I am probably 10 years behind, lots of reading I can catch up on.

morf13
07-03-2010, 07:17 AM
Eddie Seda was a Zodiac copycat from the state of NY. The original and infamous Zodiac murders happened in the late 60's near San Fran, CA

boggled_in_ohio
08-22-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm new to THIS forum (and joined because I found it while reading about the Kyron Horman case which I am utterly emotionally invested in)
However, I too became obsessed with the Zodiac case in the same way someone else mentioned in this thread. I had never heard of Z until about 3 years ago when I saw a special on one of those Mystery channels. I then went and rented the movie, then read some books, then found tom voights site and read there as much as possible. I dont post there anymore and it was impossible to ever read all the stuff over there, it'd take years to read it all, I think.
I don't have any theories/suspects other than I think it's likely someone no one ever even thought of. I also believe he did move around and continue killing until he died or health wouldn't let him anymore (we of course have no clue if he's alive or dead today even). He promised he would keep killing and make some of them appear as accidents and he likely kept his word.
I will look to see if anyone still posts on this thread later this evening, not sure it's very active anymore, but its good to see some folks are still intrigued by the zodiac case.

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-26-2010, 10:07 PM
Are you thinking of Don Harden? he is the high school teacher who along with his wife cracked the first code.

Yes,thats him. He looks like the sketch with glasses and looks like the Lake Berryessa sketch without glasses.His whole name,town and occupation are hidden in the deciphered code in a cross word type puzzle form just like Dennis Rader did. His initials DH are in the bus bomb diagram and also his hand writing style is like Zodiacs.He also changes the appearance of his lettering when he writes just like Zodiac did.

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-28-2010, 03:17 PM
Pic of teacher

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Pictures

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Pic with glasses

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-28-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm new to THIS forum (and joined because I found it while reading about the Kyron Horman case which I am utterly emotionally invested in)
However, I too became obsessed with the Zodiac case in the same way someone else mentioned in this thread. I had never heard of Z until about 3 years ago when I saw a special on one of those Mystery channels. I then went and rented the movie, then read some books, then found tom voights site and read there as much as possible. I dont post there anymore and it was impossible to ever read all the stuff over there, it'd take years to read it all, I think.
I don't have any theories/suspects other than I think it's likely someone no one ever even thought of. I also believe he did move around and continue killing until he died or health wouldn't let him anymore (we of course have no clue if he's alive or dead today even). He promised he would keep killing and make some of them appear as accidents and he likely kept his word.
I will look to see if anyone still posts on this thread later this evening, not sure it's very active anymore, but its good to see some folks are still intrigued by the zodiac case.
Hi,check out my postings with pictures.

ZodiacCasenumer31628
08-28-2010, 04:57 PM
Pictures
He matches great with thos early Lake Berryessa sketches of description given by the dentist and his son and also the 3 girls that saw a man watching them.

justthinkin
09-03-2010, 01:42 AM
Zodiac possibility? Doenetwork.org case #966UMTX, an unidentified man 70-90 years old, died March 31, 2005 at a hospital in San Angelo, TX. He was carrying numerous IDs on him, and had removed most of his fingerprints. Had been living as a transient. Hard to fathom that someone that age was still worried about the law catching up with him, but apparently he was.

Whoever he was, he must have committed some very serious crimes.

This from the San Angelo Facebook:

He had a form from the Pima County Arizona Health Department. He's thought to be a transient, apparently hiding his true identity.

**May have connections to the West Coast.

justthinkin
09-03-2010, 02:24 PM
http://californiawatch.org/watchblog/did-zodiac-killer-haunt-paul-avery

Excerpt: "I remember how he delighted in letters from a man in San Angelo, Texas, who was convinced his next-door neighbor was “the Zode,” as Avery had taken to calling the killer. The man wrote three or four long letters, describing his efforts to induce his neighbor to confess. Avery never replied." ~Lance Williams

Richard
01-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Bumping this thread up due to recent interest on other threads regarding the codes and encryptions used by Zodiac.

morf13
01-17-2011, 08:24 PM
Hope 2011 proves to be the year Zodiac's ID is discovered

ziggy
01-17-2011, 08:32 PM
I cant' believe with all the letter and stamps there is no DNA profile, or is there?

AKWILKS
01-18-2011, 02:10 AM
The Zodiac letters and stamps were not stored in a protected way. Some were found in a detective's home garage! Others were handled by many police and reporters without gloves. Any person who touched their nose or mouth prior to touching the letters may have got DNA on them.

Most of the letters yielded no usable DNA. Finally they did get FOUR STRANDS of DNA off one stamp from a letter. You need 13 strands to enter into CODIS.

It is debatable if that is really the DNA from the Zodiac or just contamination from the mailman, another person, police, etc. The detective I spoke to said he thought it was "50-50" at best if that was real Zodiac DNA.

Extrachewyy
06-08-2011, 04:52 AM
Hope 2011 proves to be the year Zodiac's ID is discovered
Before reading on, I'd like to appolagize for the misspelling of Morf. I'm unable to edit the title and also cant scroll to change the bottom of this post(ipod),sry mate!...Anyway, after reading the police report of zodiacs first crime. I also found the account given by James a little worrying. It seems to leave an extremely short amount of time (if any[11:15]?) for the crime to take place. His decription of the crime scene would not have contradicted just about any suspect or theory the police came up with. He claims he saw no one at the scene, just the cars. Would these kids really continue snuggling after a car pulls up and parks right next to them? If not, does this imply the crime was already in progress and the kids were no longer in the car? If so, and given such a short amount of time left for the crime to have taken place. I would expect a volley of shots (rapid fire) rather than the single shot James claimed he may have heard. Again a statement that if refuted, doesn't make him a liar. His timeline changes with the addition of a nondescript vehicle traveling west near the Borges farm. If he wasn't 100% on the actual timeline, and realized he may have pushed it back too far. He might then add a west traveling vehicle near the west end of Herman Rd, just to cover all his bases. The more vehicles he adds, the smaller the chance no one would come forward. Concerning the allegations that Morph's theory was flawed, and that if James were zodiac, he would never have put himself at the scene. Rubbish! He most likely travels this route at the the same time many times a week. To think the investigation would not uncover this you'd be playing with fire. Not to mention he himself gave up a workmate as possibly being there at the right time. Surely if he doesn't come forward and subsequently gets put there by someone. He then has to deal with what maybe an insurmountable amount of suspicion. I don't know what knocked this guy off the suspect list, but he deffinately caught my attention. I'm not going back and reading it again (I'm on my iPod), but I thought I read he was in his 30's and was also ex-airforce? Not sure. Just wanted to paste that I see nothing wrong with Morph's "Theory of James".
Cheers.

morf13
06-08-2011, 08:02 AM
Thanks. He was 39 at the time of the Stine murder. The sketch of Zodiac the night of the Stine murder listed Zodiac as being 35-45.

What is even more interesting about 'James', and the shot he heard, was that he did not mention this shot when he gave his first statement to police at the crime scene only 9 hours after the murder......he forgot to mention it! He first mentioned it, 3 days later in a second interview with police. If you are at the scene of a double shooting murder, only 9 hours later, how do you forget to mention you heard a shot???

As far as how he was ruled out, he was ruled out apparently in 2 flawed ways:

*The police asked him to voluntarily hand over two guns he owned to compare with the ballistics at the 12/20/68 crime scene. OF course they didnt match, if you had just killed somebody, would you hand over the murder weapon?

*The police used two cursive signatures of 'James' to compare to the printed writing of Zodiac. This was a major mistake. I spoke with multiple writing experts that said you can not get an accurate match between a cursive sample & a printed sample....like comparing "apples to oranges" as one person said.

By the way, yes, he was retired Air Force, which certainly fits in with the military clues. One interesting thing is that he moved to Vallejo only months before the Z murders started.

You can read more about him, and other suspects, clues, and previously unreleased possible Zodiac letters at:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/

Daisy1975
12-11-2012, 09:38 PM
I know this is an older thread, but I just wanted to pop in and say hello. I haven't thought about this case in a long time, and something reminded me of it the other day. I have A LOT of reading to do! It's good to see that so many folks are still actively researching this case. I am very behind on suspects.

In the past, Arthur Lee Allen was always my favorite suspect. I never thought he looked anything like the sketches though. I wasn't too worried about lack of a DNA match on the stamps because I figured there was no way he would leave saliva behind. I think it was mentioned though that there was a palm print on one of the letters as well that was not a match.

:+:MrTT:+:
01-26-2013, 10:20 PM
http://dcsymbols.com/numbers/signs.jpg

http://dcsymbols.com/numbers/numbers.htm


I came across the above while researching another case and seen the symbol for number 10 and thought about this case. Just posting as an add on and for interest.

STANDREID
06-01-2013, 07:51 PM
The murders of Robert Domingos, 18, and Linda Edwards, 17, occurred on June 4 of 1963. Some have listed these shootings as possibly the first murders of Zodiac. If you are among this number then this coming Tuesday marks the commencement of Zodiac's semi-centenary.

Icky Etardo
07-17-2013, 01:57 PM
I realize that this is a very old thread, and most of the posts I've quoted are from 2009. However, I thought it was still worth hazarding an opinion on some of the questions regarding handwriting that have previously been posted in this thread.

First, my qualifications: Let me say right off the bat that I AM NOT A HANDWRITING ANALYST. My experience with handwriting comparison comes from my 15 years of experience as a Title Examiner. One of the duties of a title examiner is to compare signatures on new loan applications to previously known samples provided on other documents in order to prevent forgeries and frauds. My work would not serve as evidence to indict a person for forgery or fraud; rather, it would serve to put up a red flag that the signature may be fraudulent and require further investigation. Here's how it worked:

I would notice a discrepancy between the signature on the new loan document and previously existing signatures on old loan documents
I would provide copies of both signatures and use a highlighter to point out the discrepancies that I saw between the two or more signatures
The file with the discrepancy report would be sent back to Escrow and the closing date would be postponed pending further investigation
The escrow officer would provide a statement detailing their evidence that the signature was valid, OR
The escrow officer would ask the signor to come into the office with identification and sign an additional signature card
If the signature card did not serve to immediately quell all doubts, the evidence would be forwarded to the lending bank, and their handwriting ANALYST would examine the evidence and issue a report either verifying a match or disputing it
If the lending bank's handwriting ANALYST disputed the signatures as a match, the evidence would be forwarded to law enforcement for potential prosecution


In the course of my career, I did catch one genuine forgery in the late 1980s. An elderly woman was (presumably) attempting to refinance her home, which had been purchased in the 1950s and paid in full in the 1970s. I noticed an extreme discrepancy between the two signatures and flagged the file for examination. The escrow officer spoke to the woman's daughter, who had been acting as an agent for her elderly mother, and told her that her mother would have to appear to sign the signature card or the loan would not be issued. After much wrangling and obfuscating, the daughter admitted that she'd signed the loan document on her mother's behalf and had been signing other documents for her mother, such as checks, for quite some time. The daughter did not have the appropriate Power of Attorney legally authorizing her to sign on her mother's behalf. In a compromise, the loan documents were redrawn and the mother was allowed to sign the new loan documents with her own signature in front of witnesses and a notary. The loan was issued, but the evidence was privately forwarded to law enforcement so that they could investigate whether the daughter was taking advantage of the mother under elder abuse laws. The daughter was never charged with anything, and later the mother and daughter did record a Power of Attorney legally authorizing the daughter to sign on behalf of the mother so that this would never happen again.

Now that I've bored you all to death, I'll give you all my opinion on the samples in this thread.

From Page 2:

ZODIAC Letter to the FBI...Take a look,do you think this is authentic?
The first letter is a verified letter from Zodiac. The second letter is a letter to the FBI that i found in their declassified files,along with a copy of the return envelope.The return address is blacked out,but the city it is post marked from is there,but hard to read.

I personally believe that the lower case letter "d" is a spot on match in both letters.The way it leans to the right,and has a bit of a loop at the top. In addition,in the letter to the FBI,he crosses out a word that looks like the word PUTTING,and writes over top of it the word ESTABLISHING. Zodiac on more than one occasion crossed out a word,and wrote another word over top of it.I also went on to read the following from the FBI regarding this letter:
"These are letters received in the Zodiac case.It has not been definately established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac"
Also if you look on the envelope that the letter was sent in to the FBI,the lower case letter "f" looks alot like Zodiac's as well. The envelope was addressed and mailed to the FBI office in Boston. And the return address as i said is blacked out but the postmark is visible,but hard to read.If anyone here is computer savy and could enlarge it and clean it up,it would be much appreciated.I wish i could determine who the letter is from.From the subject matter in the letter,it almost sounds like an investiagtor communicating with the FBI office, or a citizen trying to give the FBI some info,but there is no way to determine where/who sent it with the return address blacked out.I wish i could make out the postmark.Since it is 11 years after the last confirmed Zodiac attack,the postmark could be important if it is from another city or state,showing that perhaps Zodiac moved.

I think i know why the letter may have been sent to the office in Boston,and that makes me think of one person that may have written it to the Boston FBI,but i will not comment on it here at this time.

Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?
You have a pretty good eye. The lower-case Ds are very similar, and nearly indistinguishable. However, the lower-case Rs are completely different. Even though both examples are printed, in the second sample, the Rs are written in a distinctive script style. The Rs in the first example are very sloppy or hastily written printed Rs. I would flag this as "handwriting does not match".

Also from page 2:

Great find on the photo. I have only seen a couple pics of him,and they were newer than 1980. WOW,take off the beard,and give em a haircut and he does look like the Z sketch. As far as radians,binary,etc,math and geometry are not my strongest areas,so i dont know anything about that stuff. But if you add his background,his connection to the area,his history of writing to papers,etc, he certainly makes an interesting person of interest.Once again,i am not saying he was Zodiac,and i am not trying to ruin his name or rep.By the way,here is a sample of what i am almost positive is Penn's handwriting(which i have to say does NOT match any Zodiac writing i ever saw,but then again i dont know that Zodiac ever wrote in cursive)

In regards to Penn and how he relates to BOSTON,heres a youtube video about Joan Webster. Joan Webster was the woman from Harvard who was killed,and who Penn accused Michael Ohare of murdering. Watch the video and at 6:47 into the video,listen to what she says,and see who it sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY)
There is no way to compare a handwritten sample to a printed sample. The style, the flow, the slant, character formation, hesitation marks---all of these are almost entirely different between handwriting and printing samples from the same person. Zodiac was very clever in choosing to print his letters. Printing does not provide nearly as many distinguishing features as handwriting does, and makes it much harder to compare two samples. There are also far fewer available examples of printing from almost anyone compared to how many examples of their handwriting are available, since nearly everyone uses handwriting to sign their name. Printing to printing comparisons can still be done though. I would send this one back to escrow with a note asking why one sample was handwritten and the other was printed without hazarding an opinion on whether or not the two samples matched, as it isn't possible to make a fair comparison.

from page 3:

Quoting myself here. Take a look at the letter written to the FBI that i believe was written by Penn. Look at the very top after the word Hoover. Do you see it? .........."CHEIF",which should be spelled CHIEF! Hmm.Zodiac used to do that as well. If this letter is from Penn,he's pretty smart and i could not imagine him spelling that word wrong,and i bet the FBI missed it. I didnt see any other words spelled wrong in the letter,wow

[COLOR=red]UPDATE: I am still trying to verify that the letter I believe to be fromPenn to the FBI dated 1971,is actually from Penn.In the meantime here are pics of definate Penn handwriting samples. One is a divorce agreement he signed,and the other is a diagram he drew
No valid comparison can be made. The divorce document uses cursive handwriting, while the diagram is printed. There is no real way to compare cursive writing with printing. Just FYI for y'all, there's also no way to compare the symbols that the Zodiac made with any other type of writing other than more symbols (not that I've seen anyone try to do that here).

There are a lot of reasons why handwriting examples from the same person wouldn't match. One reason is the intent or gravity of the document; for instance, a person signing an important document may make their signature neater or fancier than they would their grocery list. Another reason is physical illness or advancing age; as we get older, our ability to use our hands naturally degrades, and there are many illnesses such as arthritis or Parkinson's disease which may affect our ability to write. A third reason why handwriting samples from the same person may not match is affectation; people may simply change their style because they believe that the new style llooks clearer, more educated, or more refined in some way.

All of that being said, the age of the comparison sample in contrast to the original Zodiac letters may make handwriting comparisons irrelevant or inconclusive all on its own. Comparing the 1960s Zodiac letters to samples written in the 1990s could possibly exclude the real Zodiac killer as the author due to natural changes in the killer's ability to write. However, it's still possible that the Zodiac killer's handwriting could still match and be used against them as evidence. All I'm saying here is that handwriting evidence becomes more sketchy and less conclusive for every year that passes between the original Zodiac letters being written and today. I seriously doubt that a person could be convicted of being the Zodiac killer based on handwriting analysis alone, even if the two handwriting samples were a very compelling match.

chlban
09-20-2013, 12:00 PM
Just thought I would check out this thread, although the Zodiac does not seem to be holding the interest of some of the other threads.

I am old enough to remember this case as it was happening. I grew up in Southern California. The frist major crimes that really scared me were the Tate/LaBianca killings which will, of course, always be thought of as the Manson Killings. We did not know about Manson at the time though all we knew was there seemded to be random killers out there first hitting a movie stars house, but quickly followed by the killing of a more "regular" couple all taking place in the victims homes.

Not long after that the Zodiac starting hitting the news. I can still remember watching a news cast where they showed a sketch of the Zodiac in the hood he wore during the Lake Berryesa killings. I swear that get up was the scariest thing I had ever seen at that age. To realize that he was operating in California (even though it was at the opposite end of the State, my geography was not yet devleoped too well) just added to the fear.

Maybe that is why this case always stuck with me. I have read alot about it over the years and it still fascinates. Unfortunately I think he is dead. I say unfortunately only because I believe that means we will never know for sure who he was.

I always thought he would leave proof of who he was when he died. With his love of taunting the police and publicity, it just seemed natural to expect that. However, after the arrests and subsequent stories about Dennis Radar and Gary Ridgeway, and the fact that we have never heard anything about discovering who the Zodiac really was (and no, I absolutely do not buy the stepchildren that have pointed the finger that the stepdads) I now believe that his "family" probably dsposed of the evidence when he died.

I just don't believe he died when the killings stopped, nor do I believe that he went to prison. My own theory is that the Stine Killing resulted in just to close a call ad he knew he had to stop or be caught. If he continued killing he knew he had to stop taking credit for it. He had just become too visible.

I also don't believe it was any of the known "suspects". While I have heard good arguments for most of them, my gut says this is someone much like Ridgeway or Radar. No one that would easily be suspected, no one that fits the typical serial killer mold and that he went on to live a "normal" life - well as normal as a crazy killer can live anyway!

I don't think his family had any idea until after his death and then wanted to protect themselves and his reputation and just disposed of the evidence. Sadly, I think we will never know for sure. But this case has always, and still does, fascinate me.

leilarose68
10-20-2013, 04:16 AM
I hear you Vespa and too agree with your opinoin about the Zodiac sites. But, most boards are like that.

can you tell me who the man at 1:30:45 is?
This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube

ummm he looks EXACTLY like the zodiac sketch. this is insanely creepy

leilarose68
10-20-2013, 03:40 PM
I'm torn on this. Regarding where Zodiac lived, I definitely think he lived in Vallejo, I'm almost 100% sure of it. Based on the geographic profiling and the epicenter of the crimes, etc. Also, I think the motivation for killing Stine was to gain attention in "the big city". I don't think Z was a city dweller.

When you think about the fact that only several thousand (maybe less) white males of the appropriate age lived in Vallejo, and even way less than that fit the profile of Z... hmm. Penny for your thoughts?

This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube
can you confirm who the man at 1:30:45 is to me? and why he looks so much like the sketch of the zodiac killer?

also, please check out the forum for nikki benedict. it's thought that she was killed by the zodiac killer but there isn't much evidence.

leilarose68
10-20-2013, 03:49 PM
rader does look a lot like the sketch. i wonder what his hairline was like during the killing days tho? in one picture he saw his hair is very different from the sketch

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 07:55 PM
On August 7, 1969, another letter was received at The San Francisco Examiner with the salutation "Dear Editor This is the Zodiac speaking."
This was the first time the killer had used this name for identification. The letter was a response to Chief Stiltz's request for more details that would
prove he had killed Faraday, Jensen and Ferrin. In it, the Zodiac included details about the murders which had not yet been released to the public,
as well as a message to the police that when they cracked his code "they will have me

Has anyone of you ever entertained the thought, that there's a code hidden in the ZODIAC name??

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 08:24 PM
If you don't want me to have this blast you must do two things. 1 Tell everyone about the bus bomb with all the details.
2 I would like to see some nice Zodiac butons wandering about town. Every one else has these buttons like, Peace symbol.svg, black power, Melvin eats bluber, etc.
Well it would cheer me up considerably if I saw a lot of people wearing my buton. Please no nasty ones like Melvin's

Was it determined whether he was black or not? I have followed this case for years, but figured it couldn't be solved.
I'm just now joining the discussion, and trying to throw out a new set of eyes on this case.

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 08:28 PM
Also, he uses he word *cipher* a lot. May not mean a thing, but it's odd. And maybe the clue is in the word *cipher*, and maybe not meant in ciphering the code?

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 08:29 PM
His spelling is also horrible. Maybe not a lot of education?

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 09:02 PM
Found this.

Starliper split his work into two sessions of 6 hours and 3 hours. When he was done, he had decoded the following text:
KILL/SLF/DR/HELP/ME/KILL/MYSELF/GAS/CHAMBER/AEIOUR/DAYS/QUESTIONSABLE/EVERYY/WAKING/MOMENT/IM/ALIVE/
MY/PRIDE/LOST/I/CANT/GO/ON/LIVING/IN/THIS/WAY/KILLING/PEOPLE/I/HAV/KILLD/SO/MANY/PEOPLE/CANT/HELP/MYSELF/
IM/SO/ANGRY/I/COULD/DO/MY/THING/IM/ALONE/IN/THIS/WORLD/MY/WHOLE/LIFE/FUL/O/LIES/IM/UNABLE/TO/STOP/BY/THE/
TIME/YOU/SOLVE/THIS/I/WILL/HAV/KILLD/ELEVEN/PEOPLE/PLEASE/HELP/ME/STOP/KILLING/PEOPLE/PLEASE/
MY/NAME/IS/LEIGH/ALLEN/

http://fostercity.patch.com/groups/editors-picks/p/has-the-code-of-the-zodiac-killer-been-cracked

Tulessa
10-22-2013, 09:22 PM
Ok, I'm hooked. :(

daisymae
10-24-2013, 12:51 AM
can you tell me who the man at 1:30:45 is?
This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys)

ummm he looks EXACTLY like the zodiac sketch. this is insanely creepy

Thanks for posting the youtube ... totally fascinating!

Dr. Know?
10-24-2013, 01:55 AM
Also, he uses he word *cipher* a lot. May not mean a thing, but it's odd. And maybe the clue is in the word *cipher*, and maybe not meant in ciphering the code?

Or like Jethro Bodine in the Beverly Hillbillies? :seeya:

dgfred
11-12-2013, 04:41 PM
Or like Jethro Bodine in the Beverly Hillbillies? :seeya:

Jethro was good at 'gozintas' and 'naughts' too. :floorlaugh:

Sorry... back on topic. :blushing:

chlban
11-14-2013, 06:08 PM
Tulessa;9918667
His spelling is also horrible. Maybe not a lot of education

That has been considered. As has the possibility that he wanted people to
believe he did not have alot of education and was deliberately making errors to throw off the police. Personally I believe he did not have much education, but who knows?

To answer an earlier inquiry you made, no one has ever suggested the Zodiac was African American. Since there are two surviving victims, along with the teenagers that viewed the Stein Killing and the cops that spoke to him right after Stein, I think that can safely be ruled out.

He was white, and somewhat stocky, medium height. What I have always found the most interesting on the physical description is the vast difference in the estimated age. Some witnesses said he was 20-30 and others estimated hiim to be in his 40's. It's been awhile since I have really studied this case, but I believe it was the two victims who claimed he was younger and the police, who saw him and spoke to him right after the Stein Killing, (but the initial report that had gone out had indicated, incorrectly, that the suspect was a black man) that placed him in his 40's.

Of course if he was in his forties it becomes far more likely that he is now dead.

dgfred
11-14-2013, 08:20 PM
I remember another crime show that had a suspect for that crime... which was also a possible suspect for being the Zodiac. Once he died the killings also happened to have stopped. I will try to find it/him.

Harmony2
11-15-2013, 12:27 AM
I remember another crime show that had a suspect for that crime... which was also a possible suspect for being the Zodiac. Once he died the killings also happened to have stopped. I will try to find it/him.

Arthur Leigh Allen??

dgfred
11-15-2013, 11:34 AM
Hey Harmony. I am not sure but I think so. Was he associated with another killing (by someone else) in some way? I remember him being mentioned in the show as possibly the Zodiac and that when he died the Z-killings stopped.

Best regards and have a nice weekend.

chlban
11-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Harmony2;9976405 Arthur Leigh Allen??

Arthur Leigh Allen died in 1992. The last confirmed Zodiac kiling was in 1969. Allen did serve some time in jail during that period, but it was a short sentence so he would have had plenty of time to continue killing if he was the Zodiac.

Allen was also eliminated as the DNA and fingerprint donor in the last confirmed killing.

dgfred
11-15-2013, 01:10 PM
But didn't they use dna extracted from a letter to compare it to? Not knowing for sure that it was the Zodiac's dna in the first place?

Harmony2
11-15-2013, 04:01 PM
But didn't they use dna extracted from a letter to compare it to? Not knowing for sure that it was the Zodiac's dna in the first place?

Michael Mageau, one of the victim’s, identified Allen in a photo lineup. There was a meeting scheduled to discuss charging Allen but he
suffered a fatal heart attack before the meeting took place.

In 2002, a partial dna profile, that did not match Allen, was developed from a 33 year old zodiac envelope. Allen was known for having others lick
stamps and envelopes claiming the glue made him ill. Investigators in San Francisco and Vallejo refused to rule out Allen as a suspect based on that test.

Timeline:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html

Thanks and ditto! :seeya:

mhoward48
03-26-2014, 04:54 AM
If you don't want me to have this blast you must do two things. 1 Tell everyone about the bus bomb with all the details.
2 I would like to see some nice Zodiac butons wandering about town. Every one else has these buttons like, Peace symbol.svg, black power, Melvin eats bluber, etc.
Well it would cheer me up considerably if I saw a lot of people wearing my buton. Please no nasty ones like Melvin's

Was it determined whether he was black or not? I have followed this case for years, but figured it couldn't be solved.
I'm just now joining the discussion, and trying to throw out a new set of eyes on this case.

People that have seen him, both victims, and witnesses describe him as white,between 20-30 years of age.

mhoward48
03-26-2014, 04:57 AM
His spelling is also horrible. Maybe not a lot of education?

To me, they always looked like he deliberately mis-spelled them. Or that was my feeling at the time of the writings.

Max17
03-26-2014, 05:22 AM
To me, they always looked like he deliberately mis-spelled them. Or that was my feeling at the time of the writings.

I knew a professor in University that had dyslexia. Brilliant in her field, but the writing looked horrible at times.

mhoward48
03-28-2014, 01:00 PM
I knew a professor in University that had dyslexia. Brilliant in her field, but the writing looked horrible at times.

Both my husband and son have dyslexia. I understand that it could be possible, I just never believed it, and thought it was deliberate.

This is just based on my own reading about it at the time. I cannot explain it other then at the time, it struck me as a deliberate ploy of his. The zodiac name for instance too, at the time Astrology was huge at least in N.Calif. jmo

grievousangel
05-13-2014, 07:00 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2627426/Revealed-The-real-face-Zodiac-Killer-compelling-evidence-adopted-man-search-biological-father-led-explosive-discovery.ht

STANDREID
05-13-2014, 07:56 PM
Well, DNA should tell the tale but we know that makes no difference to some.

I don't see a birthdate for this guy but it looks like around 1933 which would make him about 35 when the core murders commenced.

CanManEh
05-13-2014, 11:24 PM
whats wrong with asking the one guy that lived would he not beable to say if its him or not. there is a survivor is there not..

i.b.nora
05-14-2014, 12:43 AM
He was born July 14, 1934 in Wilmore, Kentucky. He died 14 August, 1984, possibly in Mexico.

morf13
05-14-2014, 07:07 AM
He definitely died in Mexico, in 1984. However, there is a unclassified telegram floating around on the net from his wife to the USA that he died in 1974, not sure what that's all about

Littlegreenlady
05-14-2014, 10:48 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/14/zodiac-killer-my-father-author-new-book

More details about the book that has been released

ScarlettScarpetta
05-14-2014, 10:56 AM
I gotta say, just watching the clip of this on tv it looks promising. The name in the note, the pic.. I hope the police do investigate well.

ilovepierre
05-14-2014, 11:01 AM
Just read an article about this new lead...if you want to call it that.
It indeed looks promising and I so hope this is true.
If this man was the Zodiac Killer, then finally the years long mystery of WHO he was will be solved!

ScarlettScarpetta
05-14-2014, 11:05 AM
Just read an article about this new lead...if you want to call it that.
It indeed looks promising and I so hope this is true.
If this man was the Zodiac Killer, then finally the years long mystery of WHO he was will be solved!

I wonder.. do they have zodiac dna?

CanManEh
05-14-2014, 01:19 PM
I see the question i asked last night which was why would this man not ask the remaining survivors to take a look at the picture and i see that today on CNN ashleigh banfield asked him that very question and his awnser was no he had not sought them out to show them the picture that resembles the sketch. I find this very strange he says this isn\t aboutthe money yet you write a book about the zodiac killer being your father and you dont even bother to show his pictures to the only living victoms that could tell you yes or no possibly to me that says he didn't want it debunked prior to selling the book . You put those odd looking glasses on just about half the population and your gonna get a resembelance of the black and white photo of that sketch not to mention that theres prolly 100 different names you could find in his letters if you were to look at it that way the letters are so random you can see lots of different words.To me this reaks of someone that was able to find a couple coincidences and decided to use them for money gain and that only theres no real evidence here at all...

ScarlettScarpetta
05-14-2014, 02:06 PM
I see the question i asked last night which was why would this man not ask the remaining survivors to take a look at the picture and i see that today on CNN ashleigh banfield asked him that very question and his awnser was no he had not sought them out to show them the picture that resembles the sketch. I find this very strange he says this isn\t aboutthe money yet you write a book about the zodiac killer being your father and you dont even bother to show his pictures to the only living victoms that could tell you yes or no possibly to me that says he didn't want it debunked prior to selling the book . You put those odd looking glasses on just about half the population and your gonna get a resembelance of the black and white photo of that sketch not to mention that theres prolly 100 different names you could find in his letters if you were to look at it that way the letters are so random you can see lots of different words.To me this reaks of someone that was able to find a couple coincidences and decided to use them for money gain and that only theres no real evidence here at all...

I think it is more than just the picture here. I do believe this should be looked into. I hope they have DNA.

CanManEh
05-14-2014, 02:21 PM
From what I remember about the dna I do think they have dna from either a letter or a piece of the shirt left behind from the taxi driver he killed however the DNA they got was from one of the letters they could not say forsure zodiac wrote it so the dna is kind of like a ? dna is it really the zodiacs or is it someone elses that was on the letter or shirt .so the dna isn't gonna solve it they do however have his fingerprint i think off the door of the taxi but again its a ? fingerprint is it really the zodiacs those too things in question are just that in question but i do think using what the ythink is most likely his fingerprint thats how they cleared arthur allen .this case is the dna at least reminds me of the JBR case and the dna found in her underwear was it really the perp or was it on the underwear when they bought the underwear.....I believe this is why a photo ID from the survivors could carry alot of weight so they should have been contacted before he wrote the book IMO..

ScarlettScarpetta
05-14-2014, 02:34 PM
From what I remember about the dna I do think they have dna from either a letter or a piece of the shirt left behind from the taxi driver he killed however the DNA they got was from one of the letters they could not say forsure zodiac wrote it so the dna is kind of like a ? dna is it really the zodiacs or is it someone elses that was on the letter or shirt .so the dna isn't gonna solve it they do however have his fingerprint i think off the door of the taxi but again its a ? fingerprint is it really the zodiacs those too things in question are just that in question but i do think using what the ythink is most likely his fingerprint thats how they cleared arthur allen .this case is the dna at least reminds me of the JBR case and the dna found in her underwear was it really the perp or was it on the underwear when they bought the underwear.....I believe this is why a photo ID from the survivors could carry alot of weight so they should have been contacted before he wrote the book IMO..

I don't.. I know that a lot of people think the survivors would know but I have seen too many false identifications to think that would be the answer. I think that most likely the dna would be the first place to start. And then from there you start looking at this man's life and how it could coincide with the zodiac.

Steely Dan
05-14-2014, 02:50 PM
Is this the same guy who found the hood in the back of a speaker that was given to him?

CanManEh
05-14-2014, 02:58 PM
I dont think so SD

SCHMAE
05-14-2014, 03:20 PM
I love WS ! See a headline and I know you guys have got it up! :)

Mrs G Norris
05-14-2014, 03:53 PM
The Zodiac Killer Hoax – 65 – Generation Why

The Zodiac Killer Hoax. Was a serial killer terrorizing San Francisco in the late 1960′s? Why was he never caught, let alone identified? Professor and researcher Thomas Horan joined us to explain just how these murders added up to a “modus operandi” for a serial killer for some in the media, but not for law enforcement. If you have followed this case at all over the years, you’ll likely recognize the names of the players involved. From Zodiac the book to Zodiac the film, the facts of the case have largely remained the same. You might ask yourself, how could a killer be considered a hoax? Tune in and find out just how this story first got started and how it was perpetuated over time.

http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodcast/the-zodiac-killer-hoax/

I'm just listening to this now, so reserving judgement, but interesting alternative view.

STANDREID
05-14-2014, 04:30 PM
I checked the Zodiac website yesterday and didn't see anything about this on there. It makes me wonder it they're afraid it's true. lol

ScarlettScarpetta
05-14-2014, 04:35 PM
I checked the Zodiac website yesterday and didn't see anything about this on there. It makes me wonder it they're afraid it's true. lol

I am always willing to listen but I always weigh the new stuff against what I know to be true.

This sounded more curiously possible. Not like the other guy who has linked Zodiac. jonbenet, and wm3 to one guy..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607944/The-prolific-serial-killer-youve-never-heard-murdered-JonBenet-Ramsey-Jimmy-Hoffa-AND-victims-Zodiac-Killer-claims-detective-new-book.html

This I can not even read. Hoffa too.. Wow.. That would be easy and awesome. :)

But this guy curiously has some info that sounds good. I would love to see it dissected and investigated.

SherlockKittyCat
05-14-2014, 04:49 PM
I see the question i asked last night which was why would this man not ask the remaining survivors to take a look at the picture and i see that today on CNN ashleigh banfield asked him that very question and his awnser was no he had not sought them out to show them the picture that resembles the sketch. I find this very strange he says this isn\t aboutthe money yet you write a book about the zodiac killer being your father and you dont even bother to show his pictures to the only living victoms that could tell you yes or no possibly to me that says he didn't want it debunked prior to selling the book . You put those odd looking glasses on just about half the population and your gonna get a resembelance of the black and white photo of that sketch not to mention that theres prolly 100 different names you could find in his letters if you were to look at it that way the letters are so random you can see lots of different words.To me this reaks of someone that was able to find a couple coincidences and decided to use them for money gain and that only theres no real evidence here at all...

BBM My thoughts exactly. While I really, really hope for a resolution (because I'm an optimist), I have to think the author found a bunch of coincidences and ran with them. For fun, I pulled up a DB Cooper photo put the eyeglasses on him, and presto! It's the Zodiac...

zwiebel
05-14-2014, 05:54 PM
Interesting though, isn't it?

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/14/zodiac-killer-my-father-author-new-book

'My father was the Zodiac Killer'

http://www.people.com/article/zodiac-killer-my-father-author-book

CanManEh
05-14-2014, 11:32 PM
OH I know you look at the sketch of DB cooper every time i seen his pic or sorry the sketch i said to myself thats the zodiac lol..It's the same with oh man is it the unibomber ted kazinsky or whatever i think he is the one iam thinking of that also if u look at his pics u get the thought of zodiac also...

Roy23
05-15-2014, 11:02 AM
This has all the makings of hoax again. Why this comes out in a book before turning it over to authorities seems weird to me.

Steely Dan
05-15-2014, 11:10 AM
My money is on the hood guy.

i.b.nora
05-15-2014, 09:35 PM
Retired detective who led Zodiac Killer case says he'll 'look into' claims in new book that names notorious murderer (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2629558/Retired-detective-led-Zodiac-Killer-case-inspired-Steve-McQueens-character-Bullitt-says-hell-look-book-claims-notorious-murderer.html)

• Dave Toschi, now 82, is haunted by his failure to crack case during his 30-year career at San Francisco Police Department
• In a compelling new book Gary Stewart claims his father, Earl Van Best, was the killer based on fingerprints and cryptograms he says he solved
• Toschi told MailOnline: 'This sounds interesting and I’ll have a look at it'
• Steve McQueen was inspired by Toschi after he visited his department for research ahead of the classic 1968 film Bullitt


Daily Mail
By RICHARD ALLEYNE IN SAN FRANCISCO
PUBLISHED: 14:19 EST, 15 May 2014 | UPDATED: 15:16 EST, 15 May 2014


"The retired detective who led the hunt for the Zodiac Killer - who also inspired Steve McQueen's character in Bullitt - today said he would take seriously a book which claims to name the notorious murderer.
Retired Inspector Dave Toschi, now 82, is famously reticent about the investigation and says his failure to crack the case during his 30-year career at San Francisco Police Department still haunts him.
But Toschi, whose dress-style and maverick approach to policing inspired film star Steve McQueen, said he was willing to look at the new evidence contained in a book written by a man who claims his father is the killer."

More...

morf13
05-16-2014, 07:41 AM
For the truth about all things Zodiac, visits my site zodiackillersite.com

First off, regarding Horan's theory about the zodiac killer being a hoax, tell that to his Victims and their Families. He has a theory full of flaws, and it's disgusting that he would insult the victims by saying there's no zodiac killer.

As far as Gary Stewart's book goes, don't believe the hype. He has linked his suspect/father to being zodiac with zero proof, and no evidence. It's a weak connection based on his father looking like z and not much more.

Every so often in this case, somebody comes forward to claim they know who zodiac was, and they get 15 minutes. A year later, the case is still open, and the next person comes forward for their 15 minutes. The same is true here, next year at this time, the case will still be unsolved

CanManEh
05-17-2014, 01:27 AM
I dont think.. Think you have your facts right he has no evidence on a fingerprint all he has is his dads name in one of the cyphers....and i would like to add alot of the letters from zodiac were not even from the real killer how do we even know that his dads name came from one of the cyphers that they new for sure the letter was from the zodiac ...maybe his dads name was in one of the letters that they are not sure if it was from the real zodiac......and again u dont write the book before u check up on facts which he said on cnn he didnt do .he says he wrote it because of the sketch and the name being in the cypher so to write the book before knowing and getting the facts to see if it was his father again smells like a money trip ...he was afraid to be debunked before writing the book because if he was debunked before writing well no book so no money for him...thats how i see this its not interesting at all to me it reaks of a man just wanting money which is why he wrote and published this book before really getting the facts ...

morf13
05-17-2014, 09:38 AM
I dont think.. Think you have your facts right he has no evidence on a fingerprint all he has is his dads name in one of the cyphers....and i would like to add alot of the letters from zodiac were not even from the real killer how do we even know that his dads name came from one of the cyphers that they new for sure the letter was from the zodiac ...maybe his dads name was in one of the letters that they are not sure if it was from the real zodiac......and again u dont write the book before u check up on facts which he said on cnn he didnt do .he says he wrote it because of the sketch and the name being in the cypher so to write the book before knowing and getting the facts to see if it was his father again smells like a money trip ...he was afraid to be debunked before writing the book because if he was debunked before writing well no book so no money for him...thats how i see this its not interesting at all to me it reaks of a man just wanting money which is why he wrote and published this book before really getting the facts ...


With all due respect to you, I don't have to check my facts, I know the Facts. I operate a website dedicated to hunting the Zodiac Killer. I have been a guest on radio programs about the Zodiac. I have access to police files & reports NOT seen by the general public.

" i would like to add alot of the letters from zodiac were not even from the real killer"

This statement shows that it is YOU who does not know your Zodiac Facts. The Zodiac case is a fascinating one, with lots of twists and turns. But unfortunately, there is alot of BS to wade thru also. I don't blame you for your misguided views about the case, alot of the BS out there is the very stuff you have seen blasted on the net, and on TV the last few days.

If you want to learn about the case, and the 'facts' of it, check out my site, Zodiac newbies & experts alike are welcomed

CanManEh
05-17-2014, 10:35 AM
scroll back i stated the very same thing about half the stuff they recieved from the zodiac that they couldn't verify all the letters so your not telling me anything new i had allready said that . And i managed all that by myself i don't need no website .

morf13
05-17-2014, 02:37 PM
There were a few possible faked or unconfirmed Zodiac letters, but the majority of them were 100% actual,legitimate Zodiac letters, verified as such by professionally trained document examiners. I don't disagree with you about the Author failing to fully investigate, and rushing to write the book without examining the full details

ilovepierre
05-18-2014, 10:51 AM
I wonder.. do they have zodiac dna?

Not that I know of.
That is one of the reasons his identity hasn't been confirmed. No DNA in any database to match him to any of the evidence.

FigTree
05-18-2014, 11:26 AM
There was an interview on the BBC world News Hour by Julian Marshall with Gary L Stewart in the last couple of days - I cannot find it to link to though :banghead:

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/author-gary-l-stewart-claims-his-father-was-the-zodiac-killer-in-sensational-new-book/story-fnh81jut-1226917598705

The Comparison Picture

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1922&pictureid=17341

Steely Dan
05-18-2014, 01:08 PM
There were a few possible faked or unconfirmed Zodiac letters, but the majority of them were 100% actual,legitimate Zodiac letters, verified as such by professionally trained document examiners. I don't disagree with you about the Author failing to fully investigate, and rushing to write the book without examining the full details

Facts don't sell books. JMO


Not that I know of.
That is one of the reasons his identity hasn't been confirmed. No DNA in any database to match him to any of the evidence.

I'll have to check, but I think they do in fact have DNA, but the guy with the hood was Zodiac's step son and I don't think Zodiac had any kids. They probably won't exhume his parents to check.


There was an interview on the BBC world News Hour by Julian Marshall with Gary L Stewart in the last couple of days - I cannot find it to link to though :banghead:

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/author-gary-l-stewart-claims-his-father-was-the-zodiac-killer-in-sensational-new-book/story-fnh81jut-1226917598705

The Comparison Picture

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1922&pictureid=17341

Those don't look anything alike to me. JMO

Annie1004
05-19-2014, 01:29 AM
My money is on the hood guy.

The hood guy is Dennis Kaufman's late stepfather, Jack Tarrance. Dennis is a huge fraud, a laughingstock, low-level criminal out of Sacramento. Totally debunked, especially when he and his "expert" handwriting analyst, Nanette Bardo, went on to connect Tarrance to the Black Dahlia, Lipstick Killer, murderer of Jon-Benet Ramsey, ad nauseam.

I downloaded the book by Stewart on kindle and plan to read it this week. I noticed in MSM that Stewart has some compelling evidence but has yet to produce it, although he claimed he gave his DNA to the SFPD 12 years ago. If the evidence positively points to Best, then I will reconsider my opinion. Until then, I remain a skeptic.

There is not a viable DNA sample of the Zodiac (ABC's 20/20 tracked the alleged DNA sample down years ago). Alas, what was obtained doesn't have enough markers. SFPD was able to rule out Arthur Leigh Allen,who always seemed the obvious perp.

I grew up close to the areas of Zodiac's stomping grounds. While it was quite the news in the Bay Area (especially Zodiac's letters to the SF Chronicle), I was a teen and did not take the "boogeyman" all that seriously.

Amazing all these years later Zodiac's true identity remains a mystery. I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer as to who he was -- but what a legend he became, and continues to fascinate 40+ years later.

If nothing else, the book is getting people talking about the elusive killer again. It always happens when someone claims "Zodiac was my father."

STANDREID
05-19-2014, 06:47 AM
Perhaps this book is the kickoff of the half centenary.

morf13
05-19-2014, 02:40 PM
The 'writing expert' that declared the Author's Father also wrote the Zodiac letters, and is therefore The Zodiac, also released a book of his own to coincide with Stewart's book. I find that troubling.

The expert supposedly only used one document to make the link in writing. Most writing experts would never call somebody zodiac based on one writing sample, they usually would want multiple pages of samples, and they would want them to be as close to original copies as possible, instead of 3rd or 4th generation copies.

This is going to turn out to go nowheres quick, and a year from now, the case will still be unsolved. In the meantime, the Author, the writing Expert, and the publishing companies,all make a few $$$

They kept this quiet and under wraps, and bombarded the airwaves,and the internet all at once in a massive PR strike. Their planning worked, they are all over the place, tv,radio, newspapers,magazines,etc...forget the fact that this Guy likely is not zodiac.

Most police need DNA or PRINT evidence to close a case like this. A writing match may be helpful, but is not as solid. I am working on getting more writing samples of Earl V Best Jr

Annie1004
05-19-2014, 10:28 PM
Until the SFPD or any of the other involved LE agencies confirm that irrefutable proof shows the identity of The Zodiac, I am taking this latest chapter as another wanna-be "The Zodiac was my father" scam. Sorry, but 40-plus years later -- even those agencies that investigated the crimes and some of the best minds -- haven't cracked this mystery.

I applaud the author for getting a big name publisher and keeping the book under wraps until its publication, and who is now making the media rounds. In fact, tomorrow he will be on an SF radio talk show in person. Right where it all started (the station Jim Dunbar along with Melvin Belli tried to get The Zodiac to call in during October 1969). I can't wait.

minazoe
05-20-2014, 10:15 PM
Reading it now, fascinating and I believe this account on all levels... It hits all the right markers, especially the motivation , the victims , the relationship with the press...

Can't put it down...bye!

Annie1004
05-20-2014, 11:56 PM
Reading it now, fascinating and I believe this account on all levels... It hits all the right markers, especially the motivation , the victims , the relationship with the press...

Can't put it down...bye!

I am 70% through the Kindle book. Agreed -- very interesting book that I haven't put down since noon today.

That being said, so far I haven't read anything that is a smoking gun or unknown clue. And until the SFPD, et al. declares officially even a partial DNA or fingerprint match (from Stine's cab?), then I will continue with my long-held skepticism.

I still hold out hope that the Zodiac's identity will be revealed in my lifetime, but don't see it being EVB, Jr.

morf13
05-21-2014, 06:03 AM
Reading it now, fascinating and I believe this account on all levels... It hits all the right markers, especially the motivation , the victims , the relationship with the press...

Can't put it down...bye!

Just curious, what's the motivation??

Annie1004
05-21-2014, 01:32 PM
I finished the book last night and found it to be a very good autobiography of a son in search of his birth father. But was he the Zodiac? I didn't find anything convincing, and like Morf wrote above, what was the motivation? EVB may have been a dirtbag, but it's a jump that he was the Zodiac, IMHO.

Until and unless the 4-marker DNA sample matches Stewart's DNA, I am not convinced.

It appears the PR around the book is stronger than the contents pointing to the EVB connection. Again, the book as an autobiography was so good I couldn't put it down, but that wasn't because of the alleged Zodiac connection.

minazoe
05-21-2014, 02:28 PM
Best was ridiculed in the press to sound like a greasy old pedophile in the Ice cream romance stories. He was angry that he lost his fight for Judith, and much like Bundy, sought to obliterate women who resembled her.

The fact that his name appears in one of the coded messages is enough for me... I disagree that there is no evidence. MOO

minazoe
05-21-2014, 02:39 PM
Further, I think Best is enough of an egomaniac and psychopath to carry on his violence simply for the literary attention,

Also the delusion that he is playing a fun game with the cops where he always gets to be the winner...and he gets to humiliate them.

I also like the aspect of Bests unusual background...hyper religious, Japanese and German, military code aspect...all very compelling..all fits.

Annie1004
05-21-2014, 04:05 PM
You just described the Zodiac!

Seriously, EVB was one sickos, no doubt. And had a horrid past.

But the description of the Zodiac from several credible witnesses stated he was "beefy" and 5'10 -5'11 and had a lumbering walk. No amount of clothing would bulk someone up to look more than 40 pounds heavier, but I could be wrong.

I hope the DNA is compared, and this can be put to rest.

minazoe
05-21-2014, 04:44 PM
Yes - I totally bought the guy with the squirrels for the zodiac...the guy who was a graceful diver, but was a lunk just waking down the street...

He died and I totally thought it was him...this guy EVB though, even the handwriting and the uncanny relationship to the papers... It's all a perfect fit...

His name is in the coded message...

The whole of all intelligence could not crack this, and yet..here is Bests full name. Just like that...you can't make this up.

And the motivation? He believes these dead girls who look like Judith will be his slaves in the afterlife, he is collecting souls.

He owns these victims.

minazoe
05-21-2014, 07:36 PM
Seriously, I can't believe how many pois there are...I guess I can understand the eye rolls and scepticism. Just looking over the whole zodiac forum for a moment...time to catch up.

Steely Dan
05-21-2014, 09:07 PM
Hmmm... you guys are making me more interested now.

minazoe
05-21-2014, 09:31 PM
Steely...the dude is a convicted forger ...had a teenage obsession with the Mikado...

It's worth a read, I would skip the introduction...it's very well written...

morf13
05-22-2014, 10:10 AM
It's a shame people not well versed in the Zodiac case, will be fooled by this book and its' 'promise'.

The fact is, anybody that knows the details of this case, and background of it, and has studied it, knows that this book is pure BS.

This is not the first, or even 2nd time, that somebody has accused their Daddy of being Zodiac. Its happened a few times before, yet the case is still unsolved, simply because those people that made those accusations were wrong. The same goes with this newest claim.

The shame is that people will waste money on this book, despite people very knowledgeable in the case saying it's pure BS. I and others have been telling people for a week now, don't waste your $$ but word of mouth, message board posts, CNN, radio,etc is causing this book to get undeserved attention and publicity.

minazoe
05-22-2014, 01:28 PM
It's pretty good pure bs then...interested in knowing more about the naysayers and what they know..

morf13
05-23-2014, 08:42 AM
The latest thing to come out is that the writing identified as the Author's Father's, and linked to zodiac, is not his writing but that of the Pastor that married them. The sample was taken from a marriage certificate.

minazoe
05-23-2014, 10:34 AM
Spoiler Alert...

Things get vague at the end, conspiracy..etc...no answer on DNA, test back logged etc...

Still, highly compelling...the guy who could confer on the mikado is dead...the mother is not completely reliable..., and you wonder if the author went down a rabbit hole...but at the same time...this person is a known felon and has too many potential fits in a row to be ignored....

He was a known guy with a personal axe to grind with several papers...also he was spectacularly cunning and a forger of historical documents, so I think pressure should be applied to rule him out.

MOO...

i.b.nora
05-23-2014, 11:24 AM
The latest thing to come out is that the writing identified as the Author's Father's, and linked to zodiac, is not his writing but that of the Pastor that married them. The sample was taken from a marriage certificate.
I was going to ask for a link to your claim but decided to look for it myself. I see you, or someone who uses similar phrases, called someone on the phone and they said ... blah, blah, blah.

http://blog.sfgate.com/crime/2014/05/22/zodiac-suspects-sex-scandal-shocks-cops/


"And about that handwriting: The document that Stewart says formed the core of his book’s forensics analysis is also in question — and that has longtime Zodiac theorist Mike Rodelli of New Jersey in a huff.

Stewart writes that an analyst matched the writing on his parents’ marriage certificate to that of the Zodiac’s, but a manager at the church that issued the certificate says the document was actually filled out by the church’s priest.

“That’s not the father’s handwriting, I’m sure of it,” said Audrey Phelps, administrator at St. Paul’s United Methodist Church in Reno, Nev. “It’s Reverend Edward Fliger’s (the priest who signed the certificate). He always filled those out. I laughed when I saw it in that book.”

Rodelli called the church on a hunch, heard from Phelps, then called The Chronicle. He has his own carefully researched theory that the Zodiac is a prominent San Francisco businessman who recently died, and he said the book’s contention was “an abomination that is giving everyone (theorists like him) a bad name.”

“I am offended by the way in which this entire book was thrust upon the public with no advance notice and, especially, no vetting of the evidence before other researchers familiar with the case,” he said. “…This book reeks of opportunism disguised as truth.”

Stewart sighed when told of the doubts on the handwriting. “My mother said he filled out the documents,” he said. “I say Van Best filled it (the certificate) out and Fliger didn’t.”"

The more I hear about this book and the writer's theory, the more it interests me. But, what do I know? Nothing, according to you.

minazoe
05-23-2014, 06:03 PM
Can more examples from reverend Filger be obtained?

Annie1004
05-23-2014, 06:29 PM
Pretty compelling evidence that the Pastor filled out that actual marriage certificate. The application for the certificate was more than likely completed by EVB.

I.b.nora, I read the book and couldn't put it down. The story of Gary Stewart looking for his birth father was very interesting; the Z claims, not so much. But then I am well-versed, and grew up in the area during Z's reign. It makes for a fascinating who dunnit. Never thought it would have gone this long without being solved. Many have tried, though.

I would need a DNA match or a solid piece of evidence (the hood, Stine's shirt, definitive fingerprint) to be convinced.

minazoe
05-23-2014, 08:36 PM
Annie, I found it interesting that there are so many mix and match characters in SF at that heady time, There were a lot of super weirdos around back then, the mansoners, the freaky acid head political conspiracy dudes, furry freak brothers, even the movie theater connection shows up in the Zodiac book...all these guys out there , lots of brilliant Berkeley drop outs and professional students...lots of cracker jacks with big educations, and random money...my husband was growing up in the Bay Area at the time...

So it's of particular interest...

Annie1004
05-23-2014, 10:42 PM
Annie, I found it interesting that there are so many mix and match characters in SF at that heady time, There were a lot of super weirdos around back then, the mansoners, the freaky acid head political conspiracy dudes, furry freak brothers, even the movie theater connection shows up in the Zodiac book...all these guys out there , lots of brilliant Berkeley drop outs and professional students...lots of cracker jacks with big educations, and random money...my husband was growing up in the Bay Area at the time...

So it's of particular interest...

Ask your husband about the Zebra murders - something like 14 killed, many injured. Then we had the Peoples Temple (Jim Jones), Harvey Milk and George Moscone, Black Panthers, Patty Hearst and the SLA, etc., all in the 1970's when I first moved here from Davis. And that doesn't touch the 1960s (the music in particular). I wanted to go to Cal, but Berkeley in the sixties was a no-no per my parents.

San Francisco has always attracted unique individuals and causes. So many of the so-called "hippies" turned into capitalists and ended up like their parents in the long run. Heady, fun times, but money really DID matter.

chlban
05-29-2014, 03:06 PM
I am 70% through the Kindle book. Agreed -- very interesting book that I haven't put down since noon today.

That being said, so far I haven't read anything that is a smoking gun or unknown clue. And until the SFPD, et al. declares officially even a partial DNA or fingerprint match (from Stine's cab?), then I will continue with my long-held skepticism.

I still hold out hope that the Zodiac's identity will be revealed in my lifetime, but don't see it being EVB, Jr.

You are more optimistic than I am. I don't believe his identity will ever be revealed. I think he is very likely already dead and that his family likely hid the evidence of who he was.

While I do think the photo is a good match, that doesn't really mean much. Put 1960's style glasses on 100 men and you would likely get about 70 of them that match just as well. Additionally, if I recall correctly, even the eyewitness (including the two survivors) descriptions don't all match, with the one exception that they all agree he wore glasses.

I was growing up in So. CA when the murders were taking place and they scared the bejeesus out of me. I would love to know the truth.

chlban
05-29-2014, 03:19 PM
I am going to have to go look up pictures of the verified female victims again. I remember Darlene's appearance and there is a similar look to the authors mother, but I don't recall the other two girls as looking like Darlene.

I will state, with no disrespect to anyone, that the fact that die hard Zodiac researchers are immediately dismissing this new book. I have found, in general, that they are usually so married to a particular suspect already, that anything that challenges that, is ignored. OTOH, they have seen the crazy claims from the other two nut jobs about their stepfathers being the Zodiac-including the woman who's actual bio dad as JFK, according to her, so yeah, she's credible.

I don't have a particular theory. In fact, I don't believe the Zodiac was any of the "popular" suspects.

Dr. Doogie
05-29-2014, 08:30 PM
As a member both here and at the Zodiackiller.com MB, I can say that we have seen far too many claims of solving the case that do not meet the challenge of scrutiny. Deborah Perez claimed that her stepfather was Zodiac, but was exposed as delusional. Dennis Kaufman claimed his stepfather was Zodiac, but he was found to be falsifying the origins of photographic "evidence" and was exposed as a fraud.

Both the the above step-daddy Zodiacs were confirmed through handwriting comparisons by certified document examiners - just like EVB has been "confirmed by the author's CDE. At least Perez's and Kaufman's CDEs looked at their suspect's real handwriting before coming to wrong conclusions. Through the excellent work of Morf13 and Mike Rodelli, it is apparent that the new "match" was made to the wrong person's handwriting.

One then has to wonder, if someone can make such a clear blunder on a central part of their case, what else have they screwed up that isn't quite so apparent yet?

HMSHood
05-29-2014, 10:40 PM
If I recall about the Zodiac Killer, he targeted couples. He has shades of Elliot Rodger as he is probably highly narcissistic and envious with a vindictive mindset.

chlban
05-30-2014, 09:20 AM
As stated, I think the Zoidac will end up like Jack the Ripper. In another 100 years everyone will still be speculating about the "known" suspects. I do not believe it is any of the "known" suspects, although I have at one time or another seen very convincing arguments about most of them.

After the identity of BTK was revealed, I became convinced that that Zodiac was probably a very similar story. In that I mean that while everyone is looking for the freak, the stand out crazy, Zodiac was likely simply going about his life which likely included a nuclear family. At least when he wasn't murdering people.

Also like BTK., he liked toying with the press and LE and I think would ultimately want his identity known when he died. However, I don't think his family would have wanted it known.

It's one thing to accuse a stepfather or a bio dad that was never part of your life, of being a sadistic serial killer. It is quite another, IMO, to admit that your dad, the man that raised you and that you loved, is one.

After living 58 years of my life without knowing I was adopted I recently had a phone conversation with the man that is listed on BC as my bio dad. He means nothing to me.No offense to him, he says he never knew about me and that may be true. I am not angry at him, he just means nothing. IF I were to find out he was a serial killer? Other than wondering if I might have inherited some of the "crazy" I cannot imagine it really being all that difficult to accept.

However, my "dad" the man that raised me, loved me and taught me so many things about life? The man, long since dead, whose examples of honesty and integrity I still try to live by? It would devastate me to find out that he had ever stolen $10 bucks in his lifetime, much less killed someone. Much less been a notorious serial killer.

I find it completely believable that the real Zodiacs child or children covered up whatever "proof" he left behind. Based on the timing and the age estimates, particularly if the Police Officers estimate was close he would almost certainly be dead by now. I don't think we will ever knonw the truth.

STANDREID
05-30-2014, 09:44 AM
And, then there's Hodel.

chlban
05-30-2014, 12:19 PM
And, then there's Hodel.

Yeah, what a joke he turned out to be. Seems his daddy killed everyone from the Black Dahlia to the Zodiac Victims.

I forget, was daddy on the grassy knoll in Dallas too?

GoBrewers
05-30-2014, 01:40 PM
I just cannot get over how many people love the idea of making money off the suffering of others. Speculation does not = facts.

Onaliv
06-01-2014, 06:29 PM
Aside from the obvious DNA question, here are my observations/questions:

Q: Was EVB ever a suspect during the original investigation?

Q: Did EVB have any history with owning firearms?

Q: What kind of cars did EVB own during the timeframe of the Zodiac killings?

Q: What size of shoe did EVB wear?

Q: Besides selling antique books did EVB have any employment? How did he support himself?

Have a hard time seeing EVB as The Zodiac when viewing the early '60s footage from court appearance on Internet, hardly looks like the killer we expected all these years, but that's just my opinion.

Does anybody have input on these areas?

chlban
06-02-2014, 05:08 PM
I just cannot get over how many people love the idea of making money off the suffering of others. Speculation does not = facts.

Of course it doesn't, but isn't speculation what we are all doing here?
Cases like this are speculated on forever, just look at Jack The Ripper, Lizzie Borden, Dahlia.

Unfortunaely it appears Zodiac will end up the same way. Unless, of course, the DNA matches. I don't expect it will.

minazoe
06-02-2014, 05:23 PM
I can't get over his name appearing in the cipher bottom line.

Donamena
06-02-2014, 11:27 PM
Annie, I found it interesting that there are so many mix and match characters in SF at that heady time, There were a lot of super weirdos around back then, the mansoners, the freaky acid head political conspiracy dudes, furry freak brothers, even the movie theater connection shows up in the Zodiac book...all these guys out there , lots of brilliant Berkeley drop outs and professional students...lots of cracker jacks with big educations, and random money...my husband was growing up in the Bay Area at the time...

So it's of particular interest...
Mine was an intern at the time...wild place he says. Hot mess of psychos, alternatives, straights, not so straights, weird religions, beliefs...open air asylum

Donamena
06-02-2014, 11:30 PM
I just cannot get over how many people love the idea of making money off the suffering of others. Speculation does not = facts.
Like Hodel? Sometimes he stretches his point, as in some of the photos. But, his father was a suspect.

Donamena
06-02-2014, 11:32 PM
As stated, I think the Zoidac will end up like Jack the Ripper. In another 100 years everyone will still be speculating about the "known" suspects. I do not believe it is any of the "known" suspects, although I have at one time or another seen very convincing arguments about most of them.

After the identity of BTK was revealed, I became convinced that that Zodiac was probably a very similar story. In that I mean that while everyone is looking for the freak, the stand out crazy, Zodiac was likely simply going about his life which likely included a nuclear family. At least when he wasn't murdering people.

Also like BTK., he liked toying with the press and LE and I think would ultimately want his identity known when he died. However, I don't think his family would have wanted it known.

It's one thing to accuse a stepfather or a bio dad that was never part of your life, of being a sadistic serial killer. It is quite another, IMO, to admit that your dad, the man that raised you and that you loved, is one.

After living 58 years of my life without knowing I was adopted I recently had a phone conversation with the man that is listed on BC as my bio dad. He means nothing to me.No offense to him, he says he never knew about me and that may be true. I am not angry at him, he just means nothing. IF I were to find out he was a serial killer? Other than wondering if I might have inherited some of the "crazy" I cannot imagine it really being all that difficult to accept.

However, my "dad" the man that raised me, loved me and taught me so many things about life? The man, long since dead, whose examples of honesty and integrity I still try to live by? It would devastate me to find out that he had ever stolen $10 bucks in his lifetime, much less killed someone. Much less been a notorious serial killer.

I find it completely believable that the real Zodiacs child or children covered up whatever "proof" he left behind. Based on the timing and the age estimates, particularly if the Police Officers estimate was close he would almost certainly be dead by now. I don't think we will ever knonw the truth.
What an amazing post. Thanks are not enough

morf13
06-04-2014, 03:06 PM
As stated, I think the Zoidac will end up like Jack the Ripper. In another 100 years everyone will still be speculating about the "known" suspects. I do not believe it is any of the "known" suspects, although I have at one time or another seen very convincing arguments about most of them.

After the identity of BTK was revealed, I became convinced that that Zodiac was probably a very similar story. In that I mean that while everyone is looking for the freak, the stand out crazy, Zodiac was likely simply going about his life which likely included a nuclear family. At least when he wasn't murdering people.

Also like BTK., he liked toying with the press and LE and I think would ultimately want his identity known when he died. However, I don't think his family would have wanted it known.

It's one thing to accuse a stepfather or a bio dad that was never part of your life, of being a sadistic serial killer. It is quite another, IMO, to admit that your dad, the man that raised you and that you loved, is one.

After living 58 years of my life without knowing I was adopted I recently had a phone conversation with the man that is listed on BC as my bio dad. He means nothing to me.No offense to him, he says he never knew about me and that may be true. I am not angry at him, he just means nothing. IF I were to find out he was a serial killer? Other than wondering if I might have inherited some of the "crazy" I cannot imagine it really being all that difficult to accept.

However, my "dad" the man that raised me, loved me and taught me so many things about life? The man, long since dead, whose examples of honesty and integrity I still try to live by? It would devastate me to find out that he had ever stolen $10 bucks in his lifetime, much less killed someone. Much less been a notorious serial killer.

I find it completely believable that the real Zodiacs child or children covered up whatever "proof" he left behind. Based on the timing and the age estimates, particularly if the Police Officers estimate was close he would almost certainly be dead by now. I don't think we will ever knonw the truth.

Great Post! By the way, you and I share some similar background in regards to our upbringing by our REAL FATHERS, as opposed to our biological Fathers.

Natasha (Tash) Simp
08-29-2014, 07:56 PM
Given Zodiac was an adult when he was killing and its been 40+ years, I think it's pretty safe to say he's dead now. I also think that after his death, his family discovered evidence in his belongings of what he had done and who he was, and they have no desire for their shame to become public.

minazoe
08-29-2014, 09:07 PM
I would plead for that family to come forward

Natasha (Tash) Simp
08-29-2014, 10:07 PM
If you were them and you found evidence after his death that he was Zodiac, would you come forward... or would you feel so full of shame and fear of the possible consequences for the non-involved family members - should it become public - that you would destroy the evidence you found?

prd2bokie
08-29-2014, 11:04 PM
I would ask for witness protection. I don't see why they couldn't give the family that in exchange for the evidence. I would make sure they included as much of my family as possible.