Canada-Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #21 **FOUND**

[christine2448]

Please continue here. Thanks.

[Turbododger]

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16891

[ThoughtElf]

Today is exactly one week from Tori's 9th birthday.

Her family has already gone through Good Friday, Easter Monday, Mother's Day, Daryn's Birthday, Father's Day, and Canada Day without her, not to mention every single day & night in between the holidays when every moment, smile and laugh together might be a treasured memory.

My singular wish right now is that Tori can be found and that her family may have further peace in their hearts this week.

[Paintr]

http://southwesternontario.ctv.ca/news.php?id=5105

Today marks three months since eight-year-old Tori Stafford vanished from outside her Woodstock elementary school.
Oxford Community Police and the OPP have yet to locate Tori's remains.

[Paintr]

http://www.570news.com/news/local/more.jsp?content=20090708_050605_6136

Tori would have turned nine next Wednesday.

[matou]

No sign of Tori after 3 months.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/662765

[Paintr]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/08/10064136.html

Rafferty’s next court appearance is set for July 17 in Woodstock while McClintic is scheduled to next appear in court on August 14.

[cuzzin_elias]

The forensics unit showed up the next day to get the tooth and shoe from Tori's home. From the article click here: MAY 21: Police visit Tori's mother in Woodstock and ask for a tooth and shoes from the little girl, as officers searching for Tori's body comb a farmer's field north of Guelph.

I'm not sure if this means they found partial remains but it wasn't reported.

I don't believe they found any partial remains. From what I hear, they needed her DNA to compare against some bloody clothes that were found in a garbage site (the blood was from an animal, no match found that I know)

JMO

[nflder]

I don't believe they found any partial remains. From what I hear, they needed her DNA to compare against some bloody clothes that were found in a garbage site (the blood was from an animal, no match found that I know) JMO

I agree. If partial remains had been found, I honestly don't think her father would be mum about it...even if LE asked him to. He has been very vocal about what he thinks and I believe we would have heard from him on the subject. I also don't think he would have participated in the Child Find fundraiser in Brantford last weekend. JMO

[webmedium]

I'm continuing to search for Tori, even though there are some people that are helping the two that were charged. And they keep moving her around which makes it very hard to locate Tori & to communicate with Tori.

[tambini]

I'm continuing to search for Tori, even though there are some people that are helping the two that were charged. And they keep moving her around which makes it very hard to locate Tori & to communicate with Tori.

I'm sorry......I don't understand. Who keeps moving her? :waitasec:

[brokenhearted]

DNA SAMPLES

Sorry if this post doesn't look proper, it's my first time.
From what I understood, LE did have DNA samples before going to get the tooth and shoe. At this point in time due to deterioration, the tooth would provide DNA for skeletal remains. This was the way I understood it from one of the PCs. I will try to find the link to it tomorrow. Sorry, I've been awake far too long today.

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm continuing to search for Tori, even though there are some people that are helping the two that were charged. And they keep moving her around which makes it very hard to locate Tori & to communicate with Tori.



Not sure I understand you fully. Do you think you could elaborate?

[Paintr]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1648723

Three months have passed since Victoria "Tori" Stafford disappeared from a quiet city street, but police have not slowed in their search for her remains.

While family and friends continue to mourn the eight-year-old -- she would have turned nine next week -- the OPP's emergency response team continues to scour the woodlands and fields in the Fergus area. Despite the massive search area -- Wellington County is almost 2,700 square kilometres -- these officers are still intent on finding Tori, police spokesperson Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland said Wednesday.

[antiquegirl]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1648723

Three months have passed since Victoria "Tori" Stafford disappeared from a quiet city street, but police have not slowed in their search for her remains.

While family and friends continue to mourn the eight-year-old -- she would have turned nine next week -- the OPP's emergency response team continues to scour the woodlands and fields in the Fergus area. Despite the massive search area -- Wellington County is almost 2,700 square kilometres -- these officers are still intent on finding Tori, police spokesperson Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland said Wednesday.

Yesterday I drove from east of Toronto to Cambridge on Hwy. 401 for the second time since April 8th. As last time, I kept glancing from left to right, especially between Guelph and Cambridge, no longer hopeful I would see anything significant, but just to get the "lay of the land". Again, I was terribly discouraged to see just how many acres upon acres of dense wooded areas there are within proximity to the highway. To search it all must be near impossible - and this is just a few miles in one direction only.

I desperately want to be optimistic about LE finding Tori's remains, but realistically I'm afraid that it might be a long time and take an accident (someone walking his dog again?) to discover this evidence and get closure for that poor family. I hope that I'm wrong.

MOO

[matou]

I made a really inaccurate map highlighting an area around the Guelph HD which would connect 50 minute drives centering from the HD. It does not take many factors into account such as whether the driver stops anywhere, turns around, changes direction, etc.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=108385590760990682969.00046e23973cec0ccac77&ll=43.58238,-80.367737&spn=0.962956,2.469177&t=h&z=9

[AtWork]

I'm continuing to search for Tori, even though there are some people that are helping the two that were charged. And they keep moving her around which makes it very hard to locate Tori & to communicate with Tori.

so, from what i am reading right now, are you stating that you know people are moving her for the 2 accused??? and, it honestly sounds like you are saying they are moving Tori around like she is alive???? please elaborate for us because those are some big opinions you have voiced.:waitasec::waitasec:

[paris_paris]

I think I can enlighten on what webmedium is saying.

He thought he knew where Tori's body was. When he searched that spot, she was not there. He thinks the fact that he was going to search, and where he was going to search was leaked (he posted maps to the spot on FaceBook). Now he thinks somebody who knows the accused moved her body.

[CarrieBean]

I'm continuing to search for Tori, even though there are some people that are helping the two that were charged. And they keep moving her around which makes it very hard to locate Tori & to communicate with Tori.

It looks to me that you are posting this as if it is a fact.

Tori's body wasn't where you "visioned" it to be? So that means someone is moving it around? :rolleyes:

[matou]

I think I can enlighten on what webmedium is saying.

He thought he knew where Tori's body was. When he searched that spot, she was not there. He thinks the fact that he was going to search, and where he was going to search was leaked (he posted maps to the spot on FaceBook). Now he thinks somebody who knows the accused moved her body.

I don't understand the 'communicate with Tori' part. Spiritual communication?

[paris_paris]

I don't understand the 'communicate with Tori' part. Spiritual communication?

Yes, hence the "webmedium" name.

eta: I was just trying to provide an explanation. Gives people the option to skip over the posts. Maybe I should have waited for webmedium to respond himself.

[Alison]

I dont believe that Tori will be found until after the two accused have had their trials. I believe if found guilty one or both of the accused will use finding Tori as a barganing chip when it comes to sentancing.

I feel for this family I tell you. I can not imagine sending your child off to school to not ever have them return, ever. Even though only a small and cold comfort for the family may the two who did this to Tori rot in jail for the remainder of their worldly life followed by rotting in hell for their eternal life.

[ChaChaCha]

Sadder than sad. It is less than a week until what would have been Tori's birthday. I understand from a friend that Grandmother Linda is having a difficult time accepting the sudden loss of her beautiful granddaughter that she loved and cared for, especially with her not yet being found. It must be a living nightmare for a woman who tried so hard to protect her granddaughter during her brief lifetime. As a parent (and a grandparent) I understand only too well looking out for the best interests of little innocents of this world, even when it means sacrificing your own comfort, sanity and monetary resources to ensure that they have what they need in terms of love, support, security and the necessities of life.

I think that Grandma Linda was Tori's angel, just as Tori will now be Linda's special angel. My heart goes out to Linda and the rest of Tori's family on their loss and heartache. I hope that Tori's birthday is full of sunshine, purple flowers and balloons in memory of a beautiful little soul that was wrenched away from her family and friends.

If I may....

Near a shady wall a rose once grew,
Budded and blossomed in God's free light,
Watered and fed by the morning dew,
Shedding it's sweetness day and night.

As it grew and blossomed fair and tall,
Slowly rising to loftier height,
It came to a crevice in the wall
Through which there shone a beam of light.

Onward it crept with added strength
With never a thought of fear or pride,
It followed the light through the crevice's length
And unfolded itself on the other side.

The light, the dew, the broadening view
Were found the same as they were before,
And it lost itself in beauties new,
Breathing it's fragrance more and more.

Shall claim of death cause us to grieve
And make our courage faint and fall?
Nay! Let us faith and hope receive--
The rose still grows beyond the wall,
Scattering fragrance far and wide
Just as it did in days of yore,
Just as it did on the other side,
Just as it will forevermore.

~ A. L. Frink ~

[Turbododger]

I made a really inaccurate map highlighting an area around the Guelph HD which would connect 50 minute drives centering from the HD. It does not take many factors into account such as whether the driver stops anywhere, turns around, changes direction, etc.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=108385590760990682969.00046e23973cec0ccac77&ll=43.58238,-80.367737&spn=0.962956,2.469177&t=h&z=9

Nice work, Matou. When I opened your map, and then opened my VS Search map that is saved, it overlayed the two maps to show your 50 minute radius, and the known search areas. Very useful.

What did you base your 50 minute range on? The locals would probably have a very close guess at most driving times from Guelph, I would think.

[matou]

Nice work, Matou. When I opened your map, and then opened my VS Search map that is saved, it overlayed the two maps to show your 50 minute radius, and the known search areas. Very useful.

What did you base your 50 minute range on? The locals would probably have a very close guess at most driving times from Guelph, I would think.

Thanks! I just opened up another google map with the HD as the center point and selected 'get directions' and then chose 'by car'. I looked at various towns nearby as the destination. This gives the route and gives the amount of time at the top of the directions. I then placed the towns that were about 50 minutes away (doing the speed limit, I guess) in the boundary of the area.

I somehow locked myself out of my google account and had to make another one (LOL) right after making this map so I can't edit it anymore.

Of course, this has to do with LE asking people to check their properties withing a 50 minute drive of Guelph.
Link: http://www.nationalpost.com/most-popular/story.html?id=1621086

I'm just using the HD as a centre point. If they left the HD around 8 pm then 50 minutes later makes it about 8:50 and dark on April 8th. It was also probably very cold. From the article: April 8 started with snow showers and a wind chill of -7C in the area and the foliage had not yet started to bloom. Hopefully, the map will be helpful :)

[Turbododger]

I guess the other thing we should put on the map, is the McDonald's around. I am going to have to find where that information came from, as they supposedly went to a McDonald's. I wonder how many are open 24 hours in that range? If not 24 hours, what time do they close? I have to find the source on that, I guess it was probably not officially said anywhere.

[Turbododger]

http://www.570news.com/news/local/more.jsp?content=20090708_050605_6136

[matou]

I guess the other thing we should put on the map, is the McDonald's around. I am going to have to find where that information came from, as they supposedly went to a McDonald's. I wonder how many are open 24 hours in that range? If not 24 hours, what time do they close? I have to find the source on that, I guess it was probably not officially said anywhere.

Not sure where that info came from but I remember reading it somewhere. I just added the McDs to the map. Hope it shows up.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=mcdonalds&sll=43.683764,-80.69458&sspn=1.922659,4.938354&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=8 Just overlay the other maps overtop. I can't paste all 3 pieces/maps together

[Turbododger]

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/sexslaves.html

An estimated half million women are trafficked annually for the purpose of sexual slavery. They are "exported" to over 50 countries including Britain, Italy, Japan, Germany, Israel, Turkey, China, Kosovo, Canada and the United States. Misunderstood and widely tolerated, sex trafficking has become a multi- billion dollar underground industry.

Sex Slaves takes us to "ground zero"; of the sex trade
- Moldova and Ukraine - where traffickers effortlessly find vulnerable women desperate to go abroad and earn some money

[braindrained]

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/sexslaves.html

An estimated half million women are trafficked annually for the purpose of sexual slavery. They are "exported" to over 50 countries including Britain, Italy, Japan, Germany, Israel, Turkey, China, Kosovo, Canada and the United States. Misunderstood and widely tolerated, sex trafficking has become a multi- billion dollar underground industry.

I cannot even comprehend a child of 8 being used this way and as hard as it would be, if it were my child I would pray she/he was deceased instead of being used like this! What a horrible horrible world this has become. :mad:

[stellarkix]

I guess the other thing we should put on the map, is the McDonald's around. I am going to have to find where that information came from, as they supposedly went to a McDonald's. I wonder how many are open 24 hours in that range? If not 24 hours, what time do they close? I have to find the source on that, I guess it was probably not officially said anywhere.

There is a McDonalds in Walmart, which is beside HD. Also, there is another McD's litterally around the corner from HD that closes at 11pm...

And another one that is on Woodlawn, across from Stampede Ranch, which is open till 1-2 I believe

[cleo612]

This is just all so wrong.

I am so deeply saddened that little Tori has still not been found.

I hope that the people who have been charged with little Tori's murder are forever haunted by visions of what they did to this child.

I pray that they never again feel safe in their surroundings and are forever looking over there shoulders to see if danger lurks behind them.

I hope that they never again have a moment of peace or serenity in their lives.

I pray that they are swiftly and severely punished here on earth for the harm they did to this beautiful child, and that they then spend eternity in hell-o suffering the wrath and heat of that locale.

I sincerely hope and pray that little Tori is found soon so that she may be laid to rest in a dignified manner. She deserves nothing less.

[CuriousJorge]

Darn, been racking my brain as to the video report that featured the psychic (blonde) woman. A guy was hosting the video and part of the video included the psychic with Tori's doll. Is she not the one who claims Tori had been to McDonalds with abductor(s). The show (video) had a number(s) (9) in it's title. Sorry, hopefully one of you have a better memory than I.:waitasec:

You guys are real troopers for all your hard sleuthing. I check in to read, but feel I don't have much to offer. Let's pray that her birthday brings her home.:blowkiss:

[Paintr]

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16926

The father of Victoria Stafford is preparing to bike to Edmonton for Child Find.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1649704

He's a father who wants to make the world a better place for children.

Rodney Stafford plans to bike 3,453 kilometres across Canada to raise money for Child Find Ontario.

"It's all in memory of Victoria," said Stafford

[matou]

Darn, been racking my brain as to the video report that featured the psychic (blonde) woman. A guy was hosting the video and part of the video included the psychic with Tori's doll. Is she not the one who claims Tori had been to McDonalds with abductor(s). The show (video) had a number(s) (9) in it's title. Sorry, hopefully one of you have a better memory than I.:waitasec:

You guys are real troopers for all your hard sleuthing. I check in to read, but feel I don't have much to offer. Let's pray that her birthday brings her home.:blowkiss:

I remembered the video. Two different psychics claimed that she was given McDonalds. They also felt that Tori was alive. I'm wondering if this is the only McDs info other than rumour. Here is the video for anyone interested:

YouTube - 16x9 What Happened To Tori?

[Dee10]

I remembered the video. Two different psychics claimed that she was given McDonalds. They also felt that Tori was alive. I'm wondering if this is the only McDs info other than rumour. Here is the video for anyone interested:

YouTube - 16x9 What Happened To Tori? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvLldHMvTrQ)


Matou that is how I remember it also, it was from two different psychics. It was suggested on a board or two the pyschics may have picked up "MacDonalds" from Tara's name, but on the other hand it would make sense if they were hungary travelling. I believe the only confirmed places were the original abduction, gas station, HD & car wash.

[Paintr]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1650807

The stops will be fundraising events for Child Find Ontario. Tori's aunt Rebecca Stafford is organizing one in Edmonton and several families are working on fundraisers in Barrie and Sudbury, he said.

Stafford is looking for local sponsors to pledge 1-cent or 10-cents a kilometre in exchange for company names and logos on "Kilometres for Kids" T-shirts. He's also hoping someone will donate a bike that's capable of a cross-Canada trek.


http://www.tillsonburgnews.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1650863

With the preliminary hearing not expected until early next year -- and Michael Rafferty's trial some time after that -- Brendan Evans, a senior assistant Crown Attorney from the London office, has been temporarily assigned to Oxford as its acting Crown.

"A second (assistant) Crown attorney will be brought in to help with the regular workload," Crawley said.

[Paintr]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/2009/07/10/10090616.html

From there, says Stafford, he’ll go by vehicle to a mountain his daughter once visited to release one purple balloon. Stafford says Tori loved that colour and this will be his way of saying goodbye.

Tori would have turned nine next Wednesday and Stafford says the family doesn’t have anything special planned for the day.

“Just because it’s her birthday doesn’t really make it that much different because she’s still not here,” he said.

“She’s in our hearts and thoughts everyday.”

[Paintr]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/CanadaWorld/2009/07/10/10090731.html

Rodney Stafford says he will embark on his 3,400-kilometre bicycle ride to Edmonton, dubbed “Kilometres for Kids,” on Aug. 2.


“It’s not just about Victoria, it’s about all the children,” he told London, Ont., radio station AM980.

“I tried to figure out a way I could turn this into something for everybody along the way, and that’s what I’m doing.”

[TopTop]

It is sooo frustrating to me that this poor child has not yet been found. I can`t believe thay have made arrests and her body has yet to be found.

I can`t imagine what that must be like as a parent. How do you give up all hope?

[CarrieBean]

I've been reading this thread, but not posting. Every time I come in here, I get angry all over again. I just can't understand how anyone can dump a child's body and not fess up knowing so many people need some kind of closure. I hope those two POS's suffer terribly for the rest of their lives.

It's really nice to see Rodney trying to make some good out of the situation. I hope he will put out a schedule showing the cities he will be stopping in/going through. Has anyone heard how the rest of the family is doing?

[ThoughtElf]

I am also really impressed by Rodney's and Rebecca's efforts on behalf of Child Find.

I can't help but note the contrast between these genuine efforts and those of the A's.

[ThoughtElf]

I am going to try to help get some sponsors for Rodney? I'm going to ask tonight if DH's company will sign up to pledge.

Maybe others have contacts that might sponsor Rodney's efforts? You have to figure that Rodney will also need sponsorship for food, lodging, bike maintenance along the way, in addition to the normal pledges.

For people who can't pledge a lot, it might be an idea to try to get Timmie's gift certs & food gift cards sent to Rodney before the trip. I'm going to go that route, too, I think.

[Turbododger]

I am going to try to help get some sponsors for Rodney? I'm going to ask tonight if DH's company will sign up to pledge.

Maybe others have contacts that might sponsor Rodney's efforts? You have to figure that Rodney will also need sponsorship for food, lodging, bike maintenance along the way, in addition to the normal pledges.

For people who can't pledge a lot, it might be an idea to try to get Timmie's gift certs & food gift cards sent to Rodney before the trip. I'm going to go that route, too, I think.

Great idea, PH.

I am in, I will donate.

We should organise a mailing address via Elepher's contact.

[ThoughtElf]

Great idea, PH.

I am in, I will donate.

We should organise a mailing address via Elepher's contact.

We can't 'officially' organize anything like that on behalf of WS, but we certainly can exchange individual ideas and suggestions. :D

[Kittymama]

I am also really impressed by Rodney's and Rebecca's efforts on behalf of Child Find.

I can't help but note the contrast between these genuine efforts and those of the A's.

Forgive me for being dense, but who or what is "the A's?"

[Turbododger]

Forgive me for being dense, but who or what is "the A's?"

I do believe Tate is referring to The Anthony's. As in Caylee Anthony's grandparents. I am not 100%, though.

[Paintr]

http://www.nugget.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1651177

"I've got it slated so that there will be eight stops along the way to Edmonton," he said.


The stops will be fundraising events for Child Find Ontario. Tori's aunt Rebecca Stafford is organizing one in Edmonton and several families are working on fundraisers in Barrie and Sudbury, he said.



Stafford is looking for local sponsors to pledge 1-cent or 10-cents a kilometre in exchange for company names and logos on "Kilometres for Kids" T-shirts. He's also hoping someone will donate a bike that's capable of a cross-Canada trek.

[ThoughtElf]

Some ideas filtered through some discussions about Rodney's trip that I think are worth putting out here in hopes someone can help & maybe this info will trickle through to Rodney & Rebecca:



He is hoping someone donates a bike suitable for the trip. A sports chain could make a mint in free ads from this. Just think, R biking along wearing their shirt, daily updates, an on line blog reporting progress, each town turns out to wave him on. You couldn't pay for publicity like this. (I am hoping someone does a daily on line blog update on Child Find)
Think how many people would buy their back to school stuff from a sports chain that did this. They could come up with a slogan...'We are the store that cares about your kids' or something like that. Give away purple balloons with the name of the store and Child Find on em. Maybe even co ordinate with local LE in each town to run a 'fingerprint your kids' day. Get people down to the store.

Great, wonderful, clever ideas. TY for thinking these up. TT graduated from advertising, so now if we can come up with a sports store, we can get a pitch & possible design going. Free labour for the sports chain, too.

[Alison]

[QUOTE=Paintr;3947527]http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1650807

The stops will be fundraising events for Child Find Ontario. Tori's aunt Rebecca Stafford is organizing one in Edmonton and several families are working on fundraisers in Barrie and Sudbury, he said.

Stafford is looking for local sponsors to pledge 1-cent or 10-cents a kilometre in exchange for company names and logos on "Kilometres for Kids" T-shirts. He's also hoping someone will donate a bike that's capable of a cross-Canada trek.


<Snipped>
I wonder what the families in Sudbury are doing? I live here and would love to at least help promote what they are doing. I work in a resteraunt/bar at the moment and would hang up flyers.

I also wanted to point out this quote from Rodney:
"It was probably one of the highest places she ever was, and if it's true she has passed, I want to be as close as I can to release the balloon," said Stafford.

I dont believe the family has been given any information that would verify Tori is deceased. If I was the parents I would want something as proof. I would have a hard time going on just LE's word alone (just as a parent not wanting to believe it to be true denial)

[Hello_Kitty]

I am going to try to help get some sponsors for Rodney? I'm going to ask tonight if DH's company will sign up to pledge.

Maybe others have contacts that might sponsor Rodney's efforts? You have to figure that Rodney will also need sponsorship for food, lodging, bike maintenance along the way, in addition to the normal pledges.

For people who can't pledge a lot, it might be an idea to try to get Timmie's gift certs & food gift cards sent to Rodney before the trip. I'm going to go that route, too, I think.

Hey PH,

That is a great idea about the Timmies Gift cards. Any idea how this would be organized and where to send, I think I could donate for that as well.

[CanManEh]

The last i ever saw on the tv and iam near barrie was the burnt seat in fergus i beleive was that the seat from his vehicle and is fergus still where they beleive her remains are i havn't heard anything in awhile and this is the last i personally seen on the tv is that where we stand in the search or clues so to speak maybe someone that has more info could fill me in ...Just curious have they ever said anything about trying to talk to him i know she was up in the helicopter but didn't help or know anything apparentlly any new info would be great since thats the last i have seen thanks alot for your help..

[Kittymama]

The last i ever saw on the tv and iam near barrie was the burnt seat in fergus i beleive was that the seat from his vehicle and is fergus still where they beleive her remains are i havn't heard anything in awhile and this is the last i personally seen on the tv is that where we stand in the search or clues so to speak maybe someone that has more info could fill me in ...Just curious have they ever said anything about trying to talk to him i know she was up in the helicopter but didn't help or know anything apparentlly any new info would be great since thats the last i have seen thanks alot for your help..

Wait...what's this about a burnt seat in Fergus? I thought they hadn't yet found the seat. You saw this on TV? When?

[ThoughtElf]

Reminder for anyone who is working on sponsors for Rodney's ride - pulled this from one of the previous articles:

Sponsorship: Anyone interested in sponsoring Stafford can e-mail r_v_stafford@hotmail.com.

[ThoughtElf]

These are also good ideas for fund-raising, but it might be hard to organize since school is out for the summer. But, I admire my friend who keeps bouncing these great ideas around. I'm trying to talk her into generating ideas for Child Find on a regular basis. Chum knows how to market!

We've been talking about Rodney's ride and she keeps on coming up with twists that can really help push this towards greater success & publicity.

(paraphrased...)

"Speaking of schools...maybe Tori's school could find a 'sister' school at the trip's end. Tori's school could take pics of R starting off. The kids could write notes to the kids in the 'end of the trip' class and e mail them off with photos to the end school. Then when R arrives, the end school could write notes to Tori's school and take pics of R finishing the trip to send back to Woodstock.

Both schools could have a penny drive to raise funds and the schools could have a child 'safety' day to talk to the kids about the dangers out there. Child Find could send someone to both schools.

Maybe the kids would make a friend across country...sort of a modern pen pal. "

---------------

She also suggested a "Toonies for Tori" drive, which sounds like a great idea to me. I think many, many people could manage to spare a Toonie for missing kids.

[CuriousJorge]

I remembered the video. Two different psychics claimed that she was given McDonalds. They also felt that Tori was alive. I'm wondering if this is the only McDs info other than rumour. Here is the video for anyone interested:

YouTube - 16x9 What Happened To Tori? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvLldHMvTrQ)

Thanx matou! I knew the video had a 9 in the title, just could think of it. You guys are doing a fabulous job sleuthing. How heart touching you people are so dedicated in finding this little lost soul. Poor child and family. I think LE needs to introduce MR and TLM to "Bubba" face to face, bunk them together. We may receive some much needed answers then. Again, I feel LE have plenty of info for a definate conviction, just need Lil Tori to put some sorrow to rest.

[CuriousJorge]

The last i ever saw on the tv and iam near barrie was the burnt seat in fergus i beleive was that the seat from his vehicle and is fergus still where they beleive her remains are i havn't heard anything in awhile and this is the last i personally seen on the tv is that where we stand in the search or clues so to speak maybe someone that has more info could fill me in ...Just curious have they ever said anything about trying to talk to him i know she was up in the helicopter but didn't help or know anything apparentlly any new info would be great since thats the last i have seen thanks alot for your help..

CME could you elaborate on your post? When did you see this info about the burnt car seat? To the best of my knowledge, they still are searching for the seat (bottom portion).

It's been reported that he had spoke to LE within the first few days of incarceration, before speaking to his lawyer. It was in one of the lastest newspaper reports. Anyone know where this report is?

[sillybilly]

It's been reported that he had spoke to LE within the first few days of incarceration, before speaking to his lawyer. It was in one of the lastest newspaper reports. Anyone know where this report is?<snip>

from: http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090529.BLATCH29ART22305/TPStory/TPComment/

"Mr. Mattson said that since he began representing Mr. Rafferty, his consistent advice has been to invoke his constitutional right to silence and say nothing to police, who have been visiting him in jail. But he hinted his client may have said something in the four days after his arrest and before he was retained. "He may have said something before he spoke to a lawyer," he said."

[Justice07]

Yesterday I drove from east of Toronto to Cambridge on Hwy. 401 for the second time since April 8th. As last time, I kept glancing from left to right, especially between Guelph and Cambridge, no longer hopeful I would see anything significant, but just to get the "lay of the land". Again, I was terribly discouraged to see just how many acres upon acres of dense wooded areas there are within proximity to the highway. To search it all must be near impossible - and this is just a few miles in one direction only.

I desperately want to be optimistic about LE finding Tori's remains, but realistically I'm afraid that it might be a long time and take an accident (someone walking his dog again?) to discover this evidence and get closure for that poor family. I hope that I'm wrong.

MOO

I just made the same drive today and was thinking the same exact thing as you. I had never really paid attention to the wooded areas on either side of the 401 before but after my drive home from Toronto today it sure made me feel very discouraged as well. Then I came home and had to find out if there had been any new news on Tori (I have not been following as closely the past little while) and I read an article about RS riding his bike from Woodstock to Alberta to help raise money for Child Find, I have to say that I was once again brought to tears over this sweet little Angel when I read that RS would end his journey by visiting Jasper Mountain, a place Tori had visited and he would release a single purple balloon to try and get some closure. RS is holding true to the promise he made to his little girl that he would do what he could to make the world a safer place for children...I'd say riding your bike 3400 kms is a good start! I will definitely be supporting him on his journey and I pray that he is able to find some kind of closure and peace along the way.

[Justice07]

Just catching up on posts here and it reminds me why I love this site so much! You are all coming up with great ideas to help support RS and it gives me such a warm fuzzy feeling :blowkiss:

I have to admit that I had stopped coming on here because I just couldn't speculate or try to figure out the who/what/where/why/when anymore. I am not sure I want to know the details anymore. All I want to know is that ALL responsible are punished to the fullest extent of the law. The sleuthers on here that can stomach it and think outside the box to help figure it out I applaud you :clap: :clap: you do an amazing job. I can not contribute that way, but I can help support RS and his ride for Tori and Child Find.

I will think of some more ideas to add to the already growing list and post later.

:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

[girl_next_door]

Do you think anything will come out of MR's case on July 17?

[Kamille]

Good morning everyone...

Haven't really been around much as there's just nothing to post about during this lull waiting for some information to surface about the case or more importantly about the finding of Tori's remains.

Glad to read that RS is finding a way to put his anger and sorrow to good use and I do hope that he is able to get some closure from his ride as well as raise a lot of funds and awarewess for missing children everywhere. I will support him in any way possible and there are some good suggestions in helping in that endeavour here. Thanks.

Unfortunately I don't think we'll get any more information from MR's court appearance on the 17th. It will probably be just more delays as his lawyer goes through the disclosure. I don't expect anything to get moving in this case until later this year or early next year. I just hope that the delays allow for LE to find Tori and for her to returned to the family that loves her.

Anyone heard any news about how TM, JG and DS have been holding up?

[matou]

Tori Stafford's family plans quiet birthday remembrance:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/665628

So sad, LE still searching near Fergus for her. I hope she is found before any 'deals' are brought up with the accused. I'll be thinking of you, Tori.

[Paintr]

http://southwesternontario.ctv.ca/news.php?id=5158

Almost 100 officers are still combing a large area in and around Fergus, about an hour outside Woodstock, for her body.

Constable Laurie-Anne Maitland says the search has not been scaled down and officers are still following up on thousands of leads.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090714/stafford_bday_090714/20090714/?hub=TorontoNewHome

However, Victoria's father Rodney told reporters that this year he will celebrate his child's birthday alone with his memories

[Beast]

Something has been bothering me for long time. What evidence do the police have that Tori is dead? Since they do not have a body or a crime scene does that suggest there was a confession? If human trafficking is the reason that would mean Tori is likely still alive and the "confession to murder" was just a cover up to the real crime, hoping for an acquittal because of lack of evidence. Surely enough time has passed that police can release more info about what evidence they have proving she is deceased. How could that affect the trial?

[Alison]

This beautiful girl should not be anywhere today but at home planning her b-day party for tomorrow. She should be dreaming of the gifts she is to recieve. She should be making calls to all her girlfriends to gossip about tomorrows events. She should be at home bothering her parents about what they may have got her. She should be going through every piece of clothing in her closet or even better yet out shopping for a new outfit just perfect for a girl who is about to turn 9.
How dare they ever think they had a right to take this girl from her family, from her friends and even worse her life. I pray these POS are haunted by Tori in every corner they look past, in every mirror they glance at, in every dream they have. I pray they never have a quiet moment in their lives where they are not haunted by the horrendus thing they have done. I pray they never know peace again.
For the family I pray for nothing more than peace of mind and comfort in knowing Tori is still in their hearts. My thoughts are with the family during this difficult time.

[sillybilly]

Something has been bothering me for long time. What evidence do the police have that Tori is dead? Since they do not have a body or a crime scene does that suggest there was a confession? If human trafficking is the reason that would mean Tori is likely still alive and the "confession to murder" was just a cover up to the real crime, hoping for an acquittal because of lack of evidence. Surely enough time has passed that police can release more info about what evidence they have proving she is deceased. How could that affect the trial?

None of us knows what that evidence is Beast, but myself and one other poster (can't recall who) distinctly heard Det Insp Renton say in the OPP press conference that they had conclusive evidence that Tori was deceased. That specific statement in the video appears to have been quickly removed and hasn't been seen or heard since.

As for IF human trafficking was an initial intent for Tori's abduction, her death probably would not have been part of the plan, in which case she may have died in an attempt to escape, or while fighting off her abductors. TM had said that Tori would probably have been a "hellion" for her abductors. IF death was part of the plan, then that is probably not something that should be discussed in a public forum out of respect for family members who may see the information. TLM's supposed admission that she walked away from the car when the assault occurred would seem to indicate there was a planned assault and TLM was therefore able to time her absence accordingly. Again, just speculation based on admissions by an alleged murderer who may just be trying to save her own skin with a lie.

As for why LE isn't releasing more info on evidence, we can assume they have released only the portions that are important for the public's "right to know" w/o jeapordizing any ongoing investigation and subsequent trial. Depending on what that evidence may be at this point in time, LE and the Crown are the only ones who are in a position to determine how it could have a negative impact and we can only trust their judgment in that regard.

[antiquegirl]

None of us knows what that evidence is Beast, but myself and one other poster (can't recall who) distinctly heard Det Insp Renton say in the OPP press conference that they had conclusive evidence that Tori was deceased. That specific statement in the video appears to have been quickly removed and hasn't been seen or heard since.

(Respectfully snipped and BBM)

This is all I've been able to find regarding evidence after the arrests:

Renton said that the surveillance video was "one piece of evidence that has brought us to where we are."

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7zG-TX2m4qIJ:toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20090520/stafford_arrest_090520/20090520/%3Fhub%3DToronto+news+conference+renton+evidence&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

And then there is this:

- The news conference was stopped abruptly after Renton made the statement, leaving questions about the nature of the relationship unanswered.

- "Right now, they're saying they have enough evidence to verify that Victoria has passed, but I myself, as Victoria's father, refuse to believe that until I actually see remains of my daughter, or my daughter's body."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/05/20/tori-stafford.html

The only pertinent video I could find was this:

http://video.lfpress.ca/video//london-and-region/5828787001/police-lay-murder-charges-in-tori-case/23873052001 (1:59 - 2:11)

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34702.aspx(1:27 - 1:39)

SB, could you be thinking of these? I don't remember another news conference and couldn't find any.

[antiquegirl]

I am confused about the initial charges (since changed) against both accused:

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34702.aspx

Rafferty:

* First Degree Murder
* Abduction Of A Person Under Sixteen

McClintic:

* Accessory After The Fact To Murder
* Abduction Of A Person Under Sixteen

Why was the second charge changed to "kidnapping"?

If we what we have learnt about Canadian law regarding death occurring during, or as a result of, an abduction is true (automatic charge of murder in the first degree), then LE could not have possibly intended to keep the first charge of "Accessory" permanently. Since it has been confirmed (I think?) that it's McClintic on that security video taking Tori, and since she has more-or-less admitted knowing where the remains are by helping in the search, she should always have been charged with Murder 1. Weren't the charges upgraded to that right after the helicopter searches? We can assume, I think, that LE was using the lesser charge as a carrot, fully intending to upgrade it once McClintic proved to be useless. (Sorry if this has been discussed, but I'm still curious about the second charge.)

[ChaChaCha]

None of us knows what that evidence is Beast, but myself and one other poster (can't recall who) distinctly heard Det Insp Renton say in the OPP press conference that they had conclusive evidence that Tori was deceased. That specific statement in the video appears to have been quickly removed and hasn't been seen or heard since.

As for IF human trafficking was an initial intent for Tori's abduction, her death probably would not have been part of the plan, in which case she may have died in an attempt to escape, or while fighting off her abductors. TM had said that Tori would probably have been a "hellion" for her abductors. IF death was part of the plan, then that is probably not something that should be discussed in a public forum out of respect for family members who may see the information. TLM's supposed admission that she walked away from the car when the assault occurred would seem to indicate there was a planned assault and TLM was therefore able to time her absence accordingly. Again, just speculation based on admissions by an alleged murderer who may just be trying to save her own skin with a lie.

As for why LE isn't releasing more info on evidence, we can assume they have released only the portions that are important for the public's "right to know" w/o jeapordizing any ongoing investigation and subsequent trial. Depending on what that evidence may be at this point in time, LE and the Crown are the only ones who are in a position to determine how it could have a negative impact and we can only trust their judgment in that regard.

I find my thoughts wandering this way too from time to time. Rodney's quote "if she has passed" haunts me... surely LE would have made sure when informing the family to impress upon them that Tori had passed beyond a shadow of a doubt, and given them the nature of the evidence. Again, I mistrust TLM - and I wonder if her statements shifting the blame directly to MR were an effort to save her own skin. Is there is hard evidence directly linking MR as the instigator and perpetrator to back up her story that I do not know about? Even Casey A lied and lied wild fabrications and tried to pull others into evilness that was purely her own. There is no reason for TLM to change her story at this point (not at least until all the evidence has been reviewed and evaluated by her attorney and refuted or a defence formed) and since LE questioning has obviously stopped since the charges were laid, she will be under no temptation to alter or embelish her story until the matter goes to trial.

I wonder which defendant will be tried first? I wonder too if the charges will be amended again - perhaps reduced in exchange for a plea bargain by either party between now and the beginning of the trial? I can't imagine that the investigation is not still on-going...

I wonder if TM will be called to testify on her relationship with TLM and Carol? Will she be cross examined on the various statements that she made when Tori was initially missing and throughout the time of her pressers and police interrogations? Will there be evidence shown that TLM had a grudge against TM which prompted her to target Tori? Was TM aware of the grudge? I refer to TM's statements that she "did not complete" the polygraph, which she later amended to indicate that the results may have shown that she had additional knowledge which she was not sharing.

Will Carol's statement be taken now on the extent of her involvement with TLM in the event that she is not around long enough to appear in court?

I cannot imagine that TLM intended to harm Tori in any way - but perhaps only to flex her power over TM in a terrifying way. On the other hand, perhaps it was TLM's intention to "market" Tori whereby TLM would benefit monetarily and TM would suffer appropriately?

I only question TM's involvement at trial as I think that it may go to the prosecution's intention to show that TLM had a reason to target Tori and not a different child. It is TLM's claim that MR's motive was sexual - which also deflects any motive that TLM might have.

I am going to have to do a bit of research on women who kidnap/harm other's children to see what their motivation generally is. I think we are getting a bit complacent here waiting for news to be released when any media reports are sure to be filtered for the general public's consumption. No further release of pertinent information will be coming from LE sources until such time as Tori is found, and even then I think very few details will be revealed.

I apologize for my long post over trial matters on what would have been Tori's birthday. Tori is not here to celebrate her 9th birthday. I hope that by what would have been her 10th birthday that justice for Tori has been attained and there will be cause for celebration when truth and justice prevail and those responsible are held accountable.

JMO...
Article on female predators... hmmmm, sounds familiar....
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.3128/pub_detail.asp

[sillybilly]

Why was the second charge changed to "kidnapping"?<snip>

My interpretation of the CCC regarding "Abduction" is that it involves the taking away or detention of a person under the age of 14 or 16 (sentence differs according to age) from another person who has legal custody, whether or not it is the wish of the underage person.

"Kidnapping", on the other hand, is the taking away or detention of any person against their will with a purpose of committing a subsequent felony.

from Criminal Code of Canada:

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html

"Kidnapping

279. (1) Every person commits an offence who kidnaps a person with intent

(a) to cause the person to be confined or imprisoned against the person’s will;

(b) to cause the person to be unlawfully sent or transported out of Canada against the person’s will; or

(c) to hold the person for ransom or to service against the person’s will."

-and-

"Abduction of person under fourteen

281. Every one who, not being the parent, guardian or person having the lawful care or charge of a person under the age of fourteen years, unlawfully takes, entices away, conceals, detains, receives or harbours that person with intent to deprive a parent or guardian, or any other person who has the lawful care or charge of that person, of the possession of that person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years."

In other words, if Tori had gone with someone willingly because they were nice peeps she wanted to hang out with, they could have been charged with abduction simply because they were keeping a child, however nicely, from another person who had legal custody. At some point, LE must have determined that Tori was in fact held against her will, and most likely with a feloneous (sp?) intent, resulting in the upgrading of the charge from abduction to kidnapping.

From what I can see, the original charge of abduction would not have automatically qualified them for first degree charges. In other words, they could have been found guilty of abduction and possibly first degree, second degree or manslaughter. The Crown would have had to prove intent for first degree. Kidnapping seems to establish intent without the Crown having to do so. By upgrading to kidnapping, the Crown only has to prove the kidnapping occurred because the intent component required for first degree murder is automatically contained within the kidnapping charge.

[ThoughtElf]

Here's the thing... members can speculate umpteen ways until they're satisfied - and they won't be, because they have their opinions firmly established, but there are currently two persons charged with first degree murder.

All the speculations and posts in the world aren't going to alter that fact from a legal standpoint. You can rail against the machine for the next two years, but it won't change a single thing.

Since two persons have been charged, two persons will go to trial. It doesn't matter what has been relayed or heard, or what sources have said - it is in the hands of the Crown now.

We want justice and for the right parties to be held accountable, but we have NO SAY in how this will pan out. It doesn't matter how hard one sleuths, wishes or believes in miracles.

In Tori's case, you just have to accept that LE & the Crown have enough to convince them that this case is worth taking to trial.

This is so frustrating, but it is even more frustrating on the eve of Tori's birthday to still deal with apologists who claim to have compassion for Tori's family, but really, have none.

At every turn, posts still strive to raise the perps up to a level of Sainthood, and make excuses for them.

What part of "Tori is gone - and someone/s are responsible" fails to resonate?

Tori isn't coming back alive. An 8 y/o is gone.

On the eve of her birthday, step up and listen up.

All of the conspiracy theories in the world won't change that. Nor will the 'Suspect 'A' is innocent arguments alter that.

A little child who was innocent is gone.

All of the arguments & rumours in the world won't bring her back.

I am daily astounded at the efforts to make excuses for and apologize for the suspects who were last known to be with this little, innocent baby.

Seriously, what is it that drives people to defend perps on hearsay when a Baby child was murdered and she won't celebrate her birthday tomorrow.

What the hell is it that drives people to think that suspects deserve more empathy than Tori and her family does?

Honestly. I've read hundreds of posts - most of which are all about what Saints the suspects are.

Fine. Fair enough. None of us wish an innocent to be convicted.

But, Tori has been lost in the quest to exonerate MR. She's an after-thought. She's an anomaly to far too many.

What part of Tori IS the real victim don't people comprehend?

What is that that makes people throw up defenses to argue. Fight and battle for a never-met suspect in a way they couldn't be bothered to stand up for a victim? Perps deserve support, sustenance, and cheer-leading more than a child does?

Tomorrow would have been Tori's ninth birthday.

Could we please take a break from apologizing for the perps for one day? Could we please turn our full, and sympathetic attention to the families FOR ONE SINGLE DAY?

I feel really chitty that we couldn't save this little girl. I feel so incredibly badly for her families. I want justice for Tori, who didn't deserve any of this.

I want to see July 15th as a day of memorial for Tori, the child she was, the teen she would be, and the Woman who would rock our world.

I want to see people lining up to pay homage to this little person who had an entire life ahead of her.

I don't want to hear/see more perp apologists on Tori's birthday.

I don't give a GD carp about their future today - really, I don't.

Tori is gone.

For the next 50 years, Tori's family will mourn her - generation by generation - and we should, too.

Today is about Tori.

For one single day, eschew your sources and for this one, singular day, expend that compassion towards the victim, Tori, and her families.

Stifle your suppositions, sources and the rumors, and
Spend one single moment of your busy day today thinking about Tori.

Not about anything else.

Spend one singular moment really thinking about TORI (Victoria) Stafford.

Don't think about the perps or the desire to defend anyone else.

Still your soul and really think HARD about the loss of the life of a little, innocent child - Tori.

Think about the victims.

[CuriousJorge]

JMO I do not feel LE would have arrested these two monsters without sufficient, evidence. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence I still believe it was MR blackberry that gave them the evidence LE needed to put them behind bars. If it was based on TLM's hearsay, this would not be enough. Would this not allow MR reason to file a lawsuit again LE if he is found 'not guilty'. The LE do have concerete factual evidence IMHO. Othewise MR could have been held on bail and this was not the case. Depending on how quickly MR's lawyers have moved along on the evidence and if they feel there's no other option but a guilty plea, maybe with lesser charges, we may be entitled to hear at least a plea on Friday. Do I have that right...this Friday? Some lawyers like to drag cases out for more $ and notoriety.

In all honest, I do not believe Tori is with us any longer in body...in soul yes. LE would not do this sort of thing, tell the parents that their daughter is gone without factually knowing this. Too many repercussions and libel damages against them.

RUMOR has it that MR took his BB in for repairs (water damage/dropped) while still under warranty, he deleted everything on in and was naive enough to think company would not look into info on it but just trash it and give him a new one, as it no longer worked. This is supposidly what lead to his arrest. The two of them were on his BB committing this horrendous crime and after manufacturer of his BB contacted LE about the info and pics, LE approach TLM about it and she confessed. Again this is one of the many rumours out there. Another rumour is is that MR was getting pretty aggressive sexually with TLM and she offered up fulfilling his sexually deviant fantasies. She knew Tori and felt she'd be easily led away. Has anyone ever heard as to whether TLM has admitted this herself or is this just what TM said (that Tori did not know TLM)?

Tori would have been turning 9 tomorrow. A life too short. She was just an innocent, trusting, beautiful little girl. This sort of crime has got to stop, what is wrong with our society? Some people are so selfish and sick. All these young people going missing. And unfortunately, the majority of them are female and perps are male. Somthings gotta change big time and fast.

To all mothers of females, teach your little girls early about being safe. Give them defined guidelines as to who are the only people they are allowed to go with. Sounds pretty sad, but a few years ago, my sister and I had a falling out and I made it very clear to my children that they were not allowed to go with her under no circumstance until I confirmed with them it was OK. The only people they were allowed to go with was any of their grandparents, their father or I. I also told them that if they ever found themselves in a scarey sitution as being grabbed by someone, gouge at the person's eyes, scream, kick, and do not stop fighting until you are free, then run like the dickens.

I am going to approach my childrens schools about teaching children self defence in school. Hope I will get somewhere with this. Bless all our little innocent ones.

[CuriousJorge]

Mod hat firmly OFF.

Here's the thing... members can speculate umpteen ways until they're satisfied - and they won't be, because they have their opinions firmly established, but there are currently two persons charged with first degree murder.

All the speculations and posts in the world aren't going to alter that fact from a legal standpoint. You can rail against the machine for the next two years, but it won't change a single thing.

Since two persons have been charged, two persons will go to trial. It doesn't matter what has been relayed or heard, or what sources have said - it is in the hands of the Crown now.

We want justice and for the right parties to be held accountable, but we have NO SAY in how this will pan out. It doesn't matter how hard one sleuths, wishes or believes in miracles.

In Tori's case, you just have to accept that LE & the Crown have enough to convince them that this case is worth taking to trial.

This is so frustrating, but it is even more frustrating on the eve of Tori's birthday to still deal with apologists who claim to have compassion for Tori's family, but really, have none.

At every turn, posts still strive to raise the perps up to a level of Sainthood, and make excuses for them.

What part of "Tori is gone - and someone/s are responsible" fails to resonate?

Tori isn't coming back alive. An 8 y/o is gone.

On the eve of her birthday, step up and listen up. And all the conspiracy theories in the world won't change that. Nor will the 'Suspect 'A' is innocent arguments alter that.

A little child who was innocent is gone.

All of the arguments & rumours in the world won't bring her back.

I am daily astounded at the efforts to make excuses for and apologize for the suspects who were last known to be with this little, innocent baby.

Seriously, what is it that drives people to defend perps on hearsay when a Baby child was murdered and she won't celebrate her birthday tomorrow.

What the hell is it that drives people to think that suspects deserve more empathy than Tori and her family does?

Honestly. I've read hundreds of posts - most of which are all about what a Saint MR is.

Fine. Fair enough. None of us wish an innocent to be convicted.

But, Tori has been lost in the quest to exonerate MR. She's an after-thought. She's an anomaly to far too many.

Tomorrow would have been Tori's ninth birthday.

Could we please take a break from apologising for the perps for one day? Could we please turn our full, and sympathetic attention to the families FOR ONE SINGLE DAY?

I feel really chitty that we couldn't save this little girl. I feel so incredibly badly for her families. I want justice for Tori, who didn't deserve any of this.

I want to see July 15th as a day of memorial for Tori, the child she was, the teen she would be, and the Woman who would rock our world.

I want to see people lining up to pay homage to this little person who had an entire life ahead of her.

I don't want to hear/see more perp apologists on Tori's birthday.

I don't give a GD carp about their future today - really, I don't.

Tori's is gone.

For the next 50 years, Tori's family will mourn her - generation by generation - and we should, too.

Today is about Tori.

Dear Tater, I hear heartbreak and frustration in your statement and rightfully so. I wanted to say something very simular to what you said but was too :chicken:.

Bless you for having the guts and the heart to say it. We could pick this case to death, but unfortunately it is what it is and that isn't going to change the fact that this precious little girl is gone forever at the hands of these two sick F*&$#.(my apologizes for being so blunt). I hope they will pay big time for their disgusting act. They don't even deserve the attention we are giving them.

]July 15th is a day that was suppose to be for Tori and her family to celebrate.

My heart will be with them in sorrowful thoughts and prayers of the anguish they have had to endure on her birthday and every day.


Again, thanx so much Tater!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap:
:blowkiss:

[Paintr]

ITA!

I think it would be a wonderful gift to give Tori on the day that would have been her birthday....a day all for herself and those who are missing her so much.

Maybe we could leave the accused in jail unmentioned. Let's leave off debating, theorizing, and speculating for just one day and send Tori off with our best wishes for both her and her grieving family.

http://www.570news.com/images/stafford.jpg

[ChaChaCha]

Here's the thing... members can speculate umpteen ways until they're satisfied - and they won't be, because they have their opinions firmly established, but there are currently two persons charged with first degree murder.

All the speculations and posts in the world aren't going to alter that fact from a legal standpoint. You can rail against the machine for the next two years, but it won't change a single thing.

Since two persons have been charged, two persons will go to trial. It doesn't matter what has been relayed or heard, or what sources have said - it is in the hands of the Crown now.

We want justice and for the right parties to be held accountable, but we have NO SAY in how this will pan out. It doesn't matter how hard one sleuths, wishes or believes in miracles.

In Tori's case, you just have to accept that LE & the Crown have enough to convince them that this case is worth taking to trial.

This is so frustrating, but it is even more frustrating on the eve of Tori's birthday to still deal with apologists who claim to have compassion for Tori's family, but really, have none.

At every turn, posts still strive to raise the perps up to a level of Sainthood, and make excuses for them.

What part of "Tori is gone - and someone/s are responsible" fails to resonate?

Tori isn't coming back alive. An 8 y/o is gone.

On the eve of her birthday, step up and listen up.

All of the conspiracy theories in the world won't change that. Nor will the 'Suspect 'A' is innocent arguments alter that.

A little child who was innocent is gone.

All of the arguments & rumours in the world won't bring her back.

I am daily astounded at the efforts to make excuses for and apologize for the suspects who were last known to be with this little, innocent baby.

Seriously, what is it that drives people to defend perps on hearsay when a Baby child was murdered and she won't celebrate her birthday tomorrow.

What the hell is it that drives people to think that suspects deserve more empathy than Tori and her family does?

Honestly. I've read hundreds of posts - most of which are all about what Saints the suspects are.

Fine. Fair enough. None of us wish an innocent to be convicted.

But, Tori has been lost in the quest to exonerate MR. She's an after-thought. She's an anomaly to far too many.

What part of Tori IS the real victim don't people comprehend?

What is that that makes people throw up defenses to argue. Fight and battle for a never-met suspect in a way they couldn't be bothered to stand up for a victim? Perps deserve support, sustenance, and cheer-leading more than a child does?

Tomorrow would have been Tori's ninth birthday.

Could we please take a break from apologizing for the perps for one day? Could we please turn our full, and sympathetic attention to the families FOR ONE SINGLE DAY?

I feel really chitty that we couldn't save this little girl. I feel so incredibly badly for her families. I want justice for Tori, who didn't deserve any of this.

I want to see July 15th as a day of memorial for Tori, the child she was, the teen she would be, and the Woman who would rock our world.

I want to see people lining up to pay homage to this little person who had an entire life ahead of her.

I don't want to hear/see more perp apologists on Tori's birthday.

I don't give a GD carp about their future today - really, I don't.

Tori is gone.

For the next 50 years, Tori's family will mourn her - generation by generation - and we should, too.

Today is about Tori.

For one single day, eschew your sources and for this one, singular day, expend that compassion towards the victim, Tori, and her families.

Stifle your suppositions, sources and the rumors, and
Spend one single moment of your busy day today thinking about Tori.

Not about anything else.

Spend one singular moment really thinking about TORI (Victoria) Stafford.

Don't think about the perps or the desire to defend anyone else.

Still your soul and really think HARD about the loss of the life of a little, innocent child - Tori.

Think about the victims.

Here's the thing... members can speculate umpteen ways until they're satisfied - and they won't be, because they have their opinions firmly established, but there are currently two persons charged with first degree murder.

All the speculations and posts in the world aren't going to alter that fact from a legal standpoint. You can rail against the machine for the next two years, but it won't change a single thing.

Since two persons have been charged, two persons will go to trial. It doesn't matter what has been relayed or heard, or what sources have said - it is in the hands of the Crown now.

We want justice and for the right parties to be held accountable, but we have NO SAY in how this will pan out. It doesn't matter how hard one sleuths, wishes or believes in miracles.

In Tori's case, you just have to accept that LE & the Crown have enough to convince them that this case is worth taking to trial.

This is so frustrating, but it is even more frustrating on the eve of Tori's birthday to still deal with apologists who claim to have compassion for Tori's family, but really, have none.

At every turn, posts still strive to raise the perps up to a level of Sainthood, and make excuses for them.

What part of "Tori is gone - and someone/s are responsible" fails to resonate?

Tori isn't coming back alive. An 8 y/o is gone.

On the eve of her birthday, step up and listen up.

All of the conspiracy theories in the world won't change that. Nor will the 'Suspect 'A' is innocent arguments alter that.

A little child who was innocent is gone.

All of the arguments & rumours in the world won't bring her back.

I am daily astounded at the efforts to make excuses for and apologize for the suspects who were last known to be with this little, innocent baby.

Seriously, what is it that drives people to defend perps on hearsay when a Baby child was murdered and she won't celebrate her birthday tomorrow.

What the hell is it that drives people to think that suspects deserve more empathy than Tori and her family does?

Honestly. I've read hundreds of posts - most of which are all about what Saints the suspects are.

Fine. Fair enough. None of us wish an innocent to be convicted.

But, Tori has been lost in the quest to exonerate MR. She's an after-thought. She's an anomaly to far too many.

What part of Tori IS the real victim don't people comprehend?

What is that that makes people throw up defenses to argue. Fight and battle for a never-met suspect in a way they couldn't be bothered to stand up for a victim? Perps deserve support, sustenance, and cheer-leading more than a child does?

Tomorrow would have been Tori's ninth birthday.

Could we please take a break from apologizing for the perps for one day? Could we please turn our full, and sympathetic attention to the families FOR ONE SINGLE DAY?

I feel really chitty that we couldn't save this little girl. I feel so incredibly badly for her families. I want justice for Tori, who didn't deserve any of this.

I want to see July 15th as a day of memorial for Tori, the child she was, the teen she would be, and the Woman who would rock our world.

I want to see people lining up to pay homage to this little person who had an entire life ahead of her.

I don't want to hear/see more perp apologists on Tori's birthday.

I don't give a GD carp about their future today - really, I don't.

Tori is gone.

For the next 50 years, Tori's family will mourn her - generation by generation - and we should, too.

Today is about Tori.

For one single day, eschew your sources and for this one, singular day, expend that compassion towards the victim, Tori, and her families.

Stifle your suppositions, sources and the rumors, and
Spend one single moment of your busy day today thinking about Tori.

Not about anything else.

Spend one singular moment really thinking about TORI (Victoria) Stafford.

Don't think about the perps or the desire to defend anyone else.

Still your soul and really think HARD about the loss of the life of a little, innocent child - Tori.

Think about the victims.


Mod hat firmly OFF.



Respectfully Tater, I don't know if you can doff the mod hat. I hear your heart, I do, but here's the thing - well, things actually....

The Tori thread has slowed down considerably. I don't think that it is because there is no new news, but rather that those of us who were here from the beginning and those who chimed in later have been hushed since the arrests to the point where any theorizing or questioning or even gentle nudges results in a thread being closed or a post deleted. It is not fair to think that because arrests have been made that the matter is done. It's not done. It won't be done until Tori has justice - and that's where the respect comes in. The court case demonstrates that people care enough about her that she is not a throw away and that they are determined that those who took away her life will be brought to the only kind of justice that can be doled out on earth.

Attention to this trial demonstrates a continued investment in attaining an insufficient justice for Tori. That is respect for the individual that Tori is.

I feel that people do not want to post here for fear of saying the "wrong thing" and being shut down or shut up in spades.

Finally, I had to read thru your post three times to figure out that you really are ripping me a new one. It's not the first time you have done so, and I guess by now you know that I am a stubborn little cuss who does not always fit inside your box. What offends me though is that you obviously think that I don't give a sh*t for what has happened to Tori. That is not true. I do have empathy - for Tori and for everyone else who has been deeply affected by the loss of this beautiful girl. But I am not going to lament or wring my hands or sit on them because I cannot change what has already happened and must now move on to resolution which to me means examining the trial, determination of guilt and an appropriate punishment. So no, I do not think I am out of line to look forward to the trial.

It is now two minutes to tomorrow... I am going to post and run....tag, you are it....

[AltaBorn]

Respectfully Tater, I don't know if you can doff the mod hat. I hear your heart, I do, but here's the thing - well, things actually....

The Tori thread has slowed down considerably. I don't think that it is because there is no new news, but rather that those of us who were here from the beginning and those who chimed in later have been hushed since the arrests to the point where any theorizing or questioning or even gentle nudges results in a thread being closed or a post deleted. It is not fair to think that because arrests have been made that the matter is done. It's not done. It won't be done until Tori has justice - and that's where the respect comes in. The court case demonstrates that people care enough about her that she is not a throw away and that they are determined that those who took away her life will be brought to the only kind of justice that can be doled out on earth.

Attention to this trial demonstrates a continued investment in attaining an insufficient justice for Tori. That is respect for the individual that Tori is.

I feel that people do not want to post here for fear of saying the "wrong thing" and being shut down or shut up in spades.

Finally, I had to read thru your post three times to figure out that you really are ripping me a new one. It's not the first time you have done so, and I guess by now you know that I am a stubborn little cuss who does not always fit inside your box. What offends me though is that you obviously think that I don't give a sh*t for what has happened to Tori. That is not true. I do have empathy - for Tori and for everyone else who has been deeply affected by the loss of this beautiful girl. But I am not going to lament or wring my hands or sit on them because I cannot change what has already happened and must now move on to resolution which to me means examining the trial, determination of guilt and an appropriate punishment. So no, I do not think I am out of line to look forward to the trial.

It is now two minutes to tomorrow... I am going to post and run....tag, you are it....

I agree 100%. I haven't posted only because of the hostile remarks given by mod at some previous posts to others that were just as appropriate as others that had been "thanked". In the past some have posted and had been sternly snipped at, and had been told what we should and shouldn't be feeling and Sleuthing about. I thought the goal is to figure out as much as we can about this case. I personally have been trying to distance myself because of the inconsistency of this, but feel that it is not right, and have started to check in again.:twocents:

[ThoughtElf]

Not going to argue today, but two points:

1. wasn't directed at you, Cha, regardless if you believe so.
2. I can doff the Mod hat as I do have just as much right to post as a member as anyone else about victims. And I am not a Mod up here.

[lilysgramma]

My wish for your birthday is that by some miracle you are found today so you Dad can start his ride knowing you are at rest and peacefully in the arms of the angels.

[Paintr]

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/665628

Victoria Stafford was a fiery girl, a happy-go-lucky prankster and a remarkably fussy planner.

She pored over every detail of her eighth birthday party last year. Her dress, the cake, the games, the music – it all had to be perfect.


And minutes after her friends left the party, she solemnly started planning her next one, which should have been tomorrow.

[Paintr]

http://www.570news.com/news/local/more.jsp?content=20090714_061045_4420

Her father, Rodney Stafford says birthdays really excited Tori and that she had started planning this year's party right after her birthday last year.

''''''''''

Rodney Stafford will be a guest on 570's Jeff Allan show Tuesday at 11:30 a.m.

[Paintr]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/15/10137726-sun.html

This time last year, Tori had a Hannah Montana-themed party. She eagerly anticipated her birthday every year and often planned it months in advance, her mother Tara McDonald has said.

Tori's grown-up ambitions changed rapidly from a teacher one day to a ballerina the next, although McDonald has said she thought her daughter would grow up to be an event planner.


http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_35952.aspx

What should have been a joyous occasion was marked by only grief and sorrow.

Victoria "Tori" Stafford would have turned nine years old on Wednesday, and she had been planning her party since her birthday last year.

[jaycee]

I haven't posted for various reasons but Tori is never far from my mind. Today I will add another purple flower to her garden and hope that she is found. My thoughts will also be with her family.

[Animal04216]

I do not see wherer PH has ripped anyone a "new one" in this post. She was not directing this at any one poster but spoke in general terms of POSTS on the subject. She has as much right to post her opinion here as any other member of WS. Just agree to disagree and move on, as you have differing ideas about wether the correct people are in jail.



Respectfully Tater, I don't know if you can doff the mod hat. I hear your heart, I do, but here's the thing - well, things actually....

The Tori thread has slowed down considerably. I don't think that it is because there is no new news, but rather that those of us who were here from the beginning and those who chimed in later have been hushed since the arrests to the point where any theorizing or questioning or even gentle nudges results in a thread being closed or a post deleted. It is not fair to think that because arrests have been made that the matter is done. It's not done. It won't be done until Tori has justice - and that's where the respect comes in. The court case demonstrates that people care enough about her that she is not a throw away and that they are determined that those who took away her life will be brought to the only kind of justice that can be doled out on earth.

Attention to this trial demonstrates a continued investment in attaining an insufficient justice for Tori. That is respect for the individual that Tori is.

I feel that people do not want to post here for fear of saying the "wrong thing" and being shut down or shut up in spades.

Finally, I had to read thru your post three times to figure out that you really are ripping me a new one. It's not the first time you have done so, and I guess by now you know that I am a stubborn little cuss who does not always fit inside your box. What offends me though is that you obviously think that I don't give a sh*t for what has happened to Tori. That is not true. I do have empathy - for Tori and for everyone else who has been deeply affected by the loss of this beautiful girl. But I am not going to lament or wring my hands or sit on them because I cannot change what has already happened and must now move on to resolution which to me means examining the trial, determination of guilt and an appropriate punishment. So no, I do not think I am out of line to look forward to the trial.

It is now two minutes to tomorrow... I am going to post and run....tag, you are it....

[CarrieBean]

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/1499059.bin?size=404x272

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7690/pmubarkgm5ehap8fisnq6vg.jpg

[Paintr]

http://www.butterflypictures.net/images/butterfly16.jpg

http://images.inmagine.com/168nwm/imagesource/is0266m9v/is098q0dx.jpg

Happy Birthday to Tori and peace and healing to her family and friends.

[wendell]

I do not see wherer PH has ripped anyone a "new one" in this post. She was not directing this at any one poster but spoke in general terms of POSTS on the subject. She has as much right to post her opinion here as any other member of WS. Just agree to disagree and move on, as you have differing ideas about wether the correct people are in jail.

bolded by me.

the problem is we don't all have the right to our own opinion on here... people jump on other's who don't believe as the majority do.
posts are deleting, threads are closed, due to people's 'opinions'

it seems to be that most people here are not in search of the truth, but just out to get justice.. ANY justice they can, and that is NOT the way it should be....
wouldn't you rather make sure you have the right person? with no reasonable doubt? so can we not be free to bring up ideas that are pro or con to those accused in the crime? without fear of backlash saying we do not care about the victoms???????
or should we just do away with all defence lawyers?

the post offends me not as MR's best friend.. but as a human being, saying those who are feeling that the accused are innocent care nothing for tori.
believe me, i want those that are guilty of the crime to pay for what they've done, and even if it turns out to be TLM and MR...
i think that statement was completely and utterly un-called for, and just down right rude, and i think that if anyone else were to say something like that in the opposite direction, we would get a good smacking for it....

can you be a mod and have an opinion? i duno...
can you have your cake and eat it too?

[CarrieBean]

Once again, I'm going to take a wild guess that LE did not lay charges on Michael Rafferty just because Terri-Lynne McClintic 'said so'. I think that's just a ridiculous suggestion. To think that LE and the Crown Attorney are using all these resources and money just so they can get "any justice they can" is also a ridiculous suggestion, IMO. I believe they have the two responsible and hope those two never again experience life outside of prison walls.

We all have the right to our opinions here. For weeks we read about what a good guy Michael Rafferty is, and how people were still trying to steer the blame away from him and towards Tori's family. Now that the people who don't agree with that are voicing their opinions "we don't all have the right to our opinion on here"?

Nobody asked you to stop posting, Wendell. You decided that on your own once others decided to post their opposing opinions.

[Paintr]

http://www.myfmradio.ca/1057/wire/news/5280068_Tori_Stafford_Birthday_084537.php

Tori's family says they will take time today to remember Tori by staying at home with one another.

[antiquegirl]

I, too, have cut down on posting since the Rumour thread was shut down, for various reasons I won't go into today. While I care deeply about what happened to Tori and want justice served, I'm not a terribly sentimental person and see no point in constantly repeating the tributes already expressed by myself and others. Sadly, none of them will bring Tori back.

So, I will just say for now that I wish little Tori a Happy Birthday in heaven and hope that her family finds the strength to get through today and all the days to come.

[JenQ]

Happy Birthday to the little angel Tori

[Paintr]

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1657049

Happy Birthday Tori

The day her baby girl was born was one of the happiest days of Tara McDonald's life.

You could see that every time she spoke of her daughter Victoria, or the number of times Tara proudly displayed photos of her daughter.

No one can imagine what today will be like for Tara, Rodney, Dayrn and the rest of Tori's family and friends. Victoria "Tori" Stafford would have been nine years old today.

[WhyaDuck?]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/sprigmom/happy-birthday-purple-glitter.gif


It might be useless to some, but I can't help but be sorry yet another little child didn't make it to nine because of some monster.

Happy birthday, Tori - blessings on her grieving family, especially her loving big brother.


ETA: You can leave a flower for Tori at the WS garden: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

[Paintr]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hXM01UhROHzDzCA1ruPLmLe1LjmQ

Tori Stafford - the Woodstock, Ont., girl whose disappearance ended in tragedy when two people were charged with her murder - would have turned nine years old today.

[Recovering-Lurker]

Happy birthdy Tori. Many, many people are thinking of you today. :blowkiss:

[Alison]

Happy Birthday Sweetheart. I have an eight year old daughter and I know how important these days are to little girls. I will light a candle in her rememberance today :blowkiss:

I will comment on my other thoughts tomorrow, please lets all be respectful today and worry about arguing tomorrow. I know each and every person who posts on here are decent respectful people so lets make today special and tomorrow about sleuthing :)

[brokenhearted]

I wonder what theme she has chose to decorate the Heavens for her Special day?
:)
Happy Birthday Tori <3

[Animal04216]

Who says you dont have a right to your opinion? I have not deleted anything except if someone is bashing another poster, PH was not bashing anyone that I could see. Hows this for a novel idea if someone feels that a post shouldnt have been deleted how about you pm me and I can make the call ok? I want all posters to be able to voice their opinioons here, and I have no agenda at all. I do not post on any of the threads that I moderate on for just this reason, as a matter of fact I pretty much stick to the "safe" forums so noone can say I am biased. Seriously to all of you if there is an issue with the other mods deleting please just pm me and I will take a look and either leave it deleted or reinstate it.

ETA to answer you question about modding and posting regarding PH--PH is NOT a mod on the missing forums,she does not have permissions in these forums so she cannot moderate them ok. She has a right to post here just as much as you do.

bolded by me.

the problem is we don't all have the right to our own opinion on here... people jump on other's who don't believe as the majority do.
posts are deleting, threads are closed, due to people's 'opinions'

it seems to be that most people here are not in search of the truth, but just out to get justice.. ANY justice they can, and that is NOT the way it should be....
wouldn't you rather make sure you have the right person? with no reasonable doubt? so can we not be free to bring up ideas that are pro or con to those accused in the crime? without fear of backlash saying we do not care about the victoms???????
or should we just do away with all defence lawyers?

the post offends me not as MR's best friend.. but as a human being, saying those who are feeling that the accused are innocent care nothing for tori.
believe me, i want those that are guilty of the crime to pay for what they've done, and even if it turns out to be TLM and MR...
i think that statement was completely and utterly un-called for, and just down right rude, and i think that if anyone else were to say something like that in the opposite direction, we would get a good smacking for it....

can you be a mod and have an opinion? i duno...
can you have your cake and eat it too?

[cleo612]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/cleo612/birthday/89.gif

To our sweet little Tori:

Honey, I know that you should be here on earth with your loving family, but since you are not, I hope that you are feeling safe and happy in the arms of the angels.

I have no doubts that you will forever be a guardian angel to your dear older brother, Daryn. He needs you, ya know. Be there to comfort him when he is feeling sad. Guide him to safety as he goes about his daily life. Touch his soul when he needs a little reassurance.

Your mommy and daddy are probably feeling an overwhelming sense of loss today. Wrap your angelic arms around them so that they can feel your presence.

Your daddy is trying to do good things in your honor. You should be proud of him. Watch out for him as he tries to make the world safer for other little girls and boys.

When your Gramma Linda is feeling lost without you, send a little reminder that you are always there with her. A little butterfly, or a purple flower that appears out of nowhere, will let her know that you are nearby.

You were taken much too soon, little one. You didn't get to have that first boyfriend, or go to your high school prom, or get married and have babies of your own. Those thoughts bring sadness to everyone whose lives you have touched.

You are loved by so many people, Tori. You have touched the hearts of people from all parts of the world. You have opened the eyes of many parents and grandparents who just assumed that their child would be safe, when in fact they might have been in harm's way. Grownups are now paying more attention to what their babies are doing so that no one else will suffer as you surely did.

You have left a lasting legacy, our little Princess.

You are loved, and that is a forever thing.

I wish that I had known you in your earthly life, but that was not meant to be. I look forward to knowing you in the celestial life. We will dance amongst the purple flowers and watch the butterflies as they dance along with us.

Happy birthday, little Tori.

[Dee10]

Who says you dont have a right to your opinion? I have not deleted anything except if someone is bashing another poster, PH was not bashing anyone that I could see. Hows this for a novel idea if someone feels that a post shouldnt have been deleted how about you pm me and I can make the call ok? I want all posters to be able to voice their opinioons here, and I have no agenda at all. I do not post on any of the threads that I moderate on for just this reason, as a matter of fact I pretty much stick to the "safe" forums so noone can say I am biased. Seriously to all of you if there is an issue with the other mods deleting please just pm me and I will take a look and either leave it deleted or reinstate it.

ETA to answer you question about modding and posting regarding PH--PH is NOT a mod on the missing forums,she does not have permissions in these forums so she cannot moderate them ok. She has a right to post here just as much as you do.

I for one appreciate your clarification, many of us here are learning the rules...whether we post often of not. I have been a member for awhile but still don't understand everything, I learn as I go along lol. I appreciate Websleuths and the volunteer work that goes into these forums. Although I appreciate & respect people have different opinions of what is appropriate, this is Websleuths and not a group necessarily dedicated to family or a prayers. I believe both can co-exists, and is only a problem if someone chooses to make it a problem or directs thoughts in a certain direction, which defeats the purpose of Websleuths. I think this is a great group & hope people can feel free to post their thoughts within reason (and from what I have seen, all is well).:woohoo:

[AltaBorn]

Who says you dont have a right to your opinion? I have not deleted anything except if someone is bashing another poster, PH was not bashing anyone that I could see. Hows this for a novel idea if someone feels that a post shouldnt have been deleted how about you pm me and I can make the call ok? I want all posters to be able to voice their opinioons here, and I have no agenda at all. I do not post on any of the threads that I moderate on for just this reason, as a matter of fact I pretty much stick to the "safe" forums so noone can say I am biased. Seriously to all of you if there is an issue with the other mods deleting please just pm me and I will take a look and either leave it deleted or reinstate it.

ETA to answer you question about modding and posting regarding PH--PH is NOT a mod on the missing forums,she does not have permissions in these forums so she cannot moderate them ok. She has a right to post here just as much as you do.

I believe that you were speaking to Wendell in this post, but just to clarify my own feelings and opinions - they are based on the moding that took place at times of the "Tori Rumor" thread. Not on this thread.

I also don't feel as comfortable posting here because there is lurkers, and I may hesitate to post somethings knowing there is no control over who is reading. On the more secured thread we had, people seemed more comfortable to give more personal information from some family and friends because at least they knew who was logging in. Yes this isn't perfectly safe but a bit of piece of mind knowing that not anyone can read the blogs.

[djmep]

Sorry if this is not the right place to ask this but I know that the rumours thread was closed for reviewing. How come it isn't back yet? It seems to have been closed for quite awhile now.

[Alison]

Here is my opinion for what it is worth. I believe everyone on here has empathy for the family and especially for beautiful Tori. I also understand and empathize with friends of the accused as well. And that is what we have to remember these two stand accused they are not convicted we have no idea what LE has on them so if people want to speculate of their inocence (especially friends) then I have no issues with it. The burden is now on the crown to prove these two are guilty, until they do they are by law to be presumed innocent. I for one think they are guilty of something that is my opinion and I am entitled to it. If someone feels they are innocent then that is their opinion and they surely are entitled to it. I dont feel anyone should be hushed and shushed because they have a different opinion. Even though people are not being told directly to keep quiet there is an undertone in which I feel others are being made to feel that there opinions are not valid or wanted here.
As for trying to find reasons as to why the accused may not have done it I believe is a form of denial. If we can find reasons why MTR and TLM did not hurt Tori then perhaps she is still alive. Would that not be wonderful? Rod has a hard time himself accepting she is gone, so I imagine do a lot of other people.
All in all I think everyone on here has good intentions and opinions. Everyone including mods should have the right to voice how they feel. I just dont think our feelings should impede on how others feel and make them feel as though their ideas are somehow less or unwanted.
Phew I am done now.

[matou]

Back to where we were:

This is the most updated map that Turbododger and I have come up with. There is an issue with the Durham County and whether it is supposed to be the town of Durham, near Hamilton. Please contribute to the map with areas that were searched previously and other possible areas associated with MTR and TLM. There are no McDs locations added since this info came from psychics only.

Link: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100279953068513078256.00046ba276b2b212badab&ll=43.98491,-80.359497&spn=1.912983,4.938354&z=8

Also, I think someone on here received a note from a school where abduction attempt was made just after Tori was taken. I found this link that describes a woman in a black car at Elora Public School. I was wondering if anyone knew the exact date of this attempt.

From the article:

The News Express hasn’t been able to confirm with OPP a possible link with an April news story of a woman in a black car allegedly trying to pick up young girls in the area of Elora Public School shortly after the disappearance of Tori Stafford. Parents, at the time, were notified by local school officials to take precautions and to review safety procedures with their children

Here is the link to the article: http://www.centrewellington.com/news.php?id=1136

I don't think this story is the same as the bogus attempts that were described in the previous article on May 23rd in the Guelph Mercury: http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278 but I could be wrong.

If anyone knows if the Elora Public School attempt was real and happened before April 12th, than I will add it to the map.

[girl_next_door]

While I care deeply about what happened to Tori and want justice served, I'm not a terribly sentimental person and see no point in constantly repeating the tributes already expressed by myself and others. Sadly, none of them will bring Tori back.

Agreed. Well-put!

Some are saying we need to focus on Tori and not the accused, or analyzing the case.
And I see your point... But THAT is not going to bring Tori back either. I really don't see a point is repeating tributes and well-wishes and posting purple things over and over and over again.
Analyzing the crime may actually get somewhere to help bring Tori justice.

Also, as someone else mentioned, this site IS called "websleuths". Therefore people shouldn't be surprised if they come to this site and see, well, sleuthing.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be sensitive and shouldn't be be encouraging and uplifting, but... I dunno. Just my two cents.

[girl_next_door]

MR in court today!

[ChaChaCha]

MR in court today!

I wonder if this will just be another routine court appearance to perhaps set a trial date, or if he will be expected to enter a plea? I am hoping that the case starts moving along without a lot of delay.

I am also wondering - what do you think the chances are of the case being moved to London or Toronto in light of the notorious nature of the case in the Woodstock area?

[nobodyzgirl]

I wonder if this will just be another routine court appearance to perhaps set a trial date, or if he will be expected to enter a plea? I am hoping that the case starts moving along without a lot of delay.

I am also wondering - what do you think the chances are of the case being moved to London or Toronto in light of the notorious nature of the case in the Woodstock area?


I suspect it will be just another routine court appearance and no doubt there will be a few more until he enters a plea and the trial date gets set. I recall his lawyer saying that the trial likely won't start until early 2010.

I can't see them moving this case to Toronto. My opinion is by the time this actually gets to court and a trial starts, the other trial that is now ongoing in London will be over, and even if it wasn't, I doubt they'd move it for that reason alone.

[Dee10]

I suspect it will be just another routine court appearance and no doubt there will be a few more until he enters a plea and the trial date gets set. I recall his lawyer saying that the trial likely won't start until early 2010.

I agree :mad: This may help give those interested an idea of what happened court & time wise in the lst murder charge of Penny Boudreau:

June 14, 2008 -- An arrest is made, waiting for the New's briefing at 3 pm from the BPD to find out the person arrested in Halifax.
*update*
Penny Boudreau ,The mother of Karissa Boudreau, has been charged with first-degree murder in her daughter's death

June 24, 2008 -- Mr. Scovil and Mr. Atherton will hold a telephone conference with a judge on July 11 to deal with legal issues, then they will be back in court on July 15 to set a date for a preliminary inquiry.

Ms. Boudreau has not yet entered a plea, which is normal. Mr. Scovil said a lot of people think if there’s a preliminary hearing, a plea has been entered.

During the hearing, Mr. Atherton said he has the Crown’s disclosure on the first part of the case — the missing person’s file. He said he has been told he should have the Crown’s case on the murder charge within a week. “As anyone can appreciate, in these types of investigations, disclosure is often large and voluminous,” the prosecutor said. He said he is confident of his case against Ms. Boudreau and there is a lot of documentation. “We’ve already delivered one banker’s box full, and that’s just a small portion of the initial investigation.” (June 24th 7:45 pm)

Sept 3, 2008 -- The case has been put over to Oct. 22 to give the defence more time to get disclosure of evidence from the Crown.

Oct 22, 2008 -- Penny Boudreau has waived her right to a preliminary inquiry. The case goes before a supreme court justice Dec. 4.

Dec. 4, 2008 -- Penny elects to have a judge & jury. Next court date Dec. 6 when documents pertaining to wiretap evidence will be unsealed and released to the Ms. Boudreau's lawyer Pat Atherton. Then Jan. 30 when the two lawyers will discuss what evidence the jury will be allowed to hear.

Jan. 27, 2009 -- Memorial marking the one year anniversary of the tragic passing of 12 year old murder victim, Karissa Paige Boudreau.

Jan. 30th -- Penny pleads GUILTY

[Jenny44]

Back to where we were:

This is the most updated map that Turbododger and I have come up with. There is an issue with the Durham County and whether it is supposed to be the town of Durham, near Hamilton. Please contribute to the map with areas that were searched previously and other possible areas associated with MTR and TLM. There are no McDs locations added since this info came from psychics only.

Link: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100279953068513078256.00046ba276b2b212badab&ll=43.98491,-80.359497&spn=1.912983,4.938354&z=8

Also, I think someone on here received a note from a school where abduction attempt was made just after Tori was taken. I found this link that describes a woman in a black car at Elora Public School. I was wondering if anyone knew the exact date of this attempt.

From the article:

The News Express hasn’t been able to confirm with OPP a possible link with an April news story of a woman in a black car allegedly trying to pick up young girls in the area of Elora Public School shortly after the disappearance of Tori Stafford. Parents, at the time, were notified by local school officials to take precautions and to review safety procedures with their children

Here is the link to the article: http://www.centrewellington.com/news.php?id=1136

I don't think this story is the same as the bogus attempts that were described in the previous article on May 23rd in the Guelph Mercury: http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278 but I could be wrong.

If anyone knows if the Elora Public School attempt was real and happened before April 12th, than I will add it to the map.

Perhaps this has been discussed but I missed it if it has...

Why do they keep searching the same area (Fergus/Guelph)? If MR went back and moved the body wouldn't it make sense that he would move it to a totally different area???

[lilysgramma]

I wonder if this will just be another routine court appearance to perhaps set a trial date, or if he will be expected to enter a plea? I am hoping that the case starts moving along without a lot of delay.

I am also wondering - what do you think the chances are of the case being moved to London or Toronto in light of the notorious nature of the case in the Woodstock area?

Today will probably bring another remand to allow for more time to examine the evidence. I'm wondering about e-discovery and whether evidence is provided electronically to the defence attorneys on an ongoing basis or if it is only provided at court appearances. If it is only provided at court it may be a long time for a trial date to be set since OPP are still investigating.

This website lists all the steps from arrest to appeal and it could be a very long time before we see justice for Tori. http://www.ecclaw.net/svc-criminal.php

Mattson has already hinted at a request for change of venue but that probably won't happen for quite a while. Until we know what the pleas are though we won't know if there will even be a trial in either case. It's possible TLM may not make it to trial given that she must have admitted her involvement based on her assitance in the seach.

In the meantime all we can do is wait. . .

[matou]

Perhaps this has been discussed but I missed it if it has...

Why do they keep searching the same area (Fergus/Guelph)? If MR went back and moved the body wouldn't it make sense that he would move it to a totally different area???

I think they're concentrating on Fergus because TLM led them there. I'm wondering how the "50 minutes from Guelph" info factors in? This info was announced when LE told the public about the car seat. Some people believe that finding the seat may lead them to Tori directly.

[Alison]

Just a question for all you law buffs out there. Since TLM has reportedly admited some type of involvment in this case can she plead not guilty to her charges? If she pleads not guilty then would she have to retract her statements thus forcing the pollice to revisit MR charges?

[tazmanian]

Friday July 17, 2009
CityNews.ca Staff
The man accused of kidnapping and killing Tori Stafford will appear in court on Friday.

Michael Rafferty, 28, is charged with first-degree murder and abduction in the disappearance of the eight-year-old girl.

The third-grade student didn't come home from school on April 8. Even after months of searching, her body still has not been found.

She would have turned nine years old on Wednesday.

The trials for Rafferty and his co-accused, Terri-Lynne McClintic, 19, are expected to start in 2010.

[lilysgramma]

Throwing support behind Stafford (http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1661141)

A touring bike and clothing has been donated for Rodney's ride. The touring bike would be auctioned off at the end of the ride to the highest bidder, with all the proceeds going to Child Find.

"This is the right time to do this," Stafford said of the timing of the fundraising ride out west. "I've wanted to be able to say to my son that I've done that one thing to help. I can say that now."

[nobodyzgirl]

MR has a new lawyer and his case has been remanded over to August 21.

http://www.nugget.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1661303

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1661308

[K.Scarpetta]

Thank you AG. Since this is now a fact I would be interested in knowing why the change was made.

I can't help but draw the conclusion that after reviewing the 3mg of disclosure Mr Mattson's advice to his client was not acceptable and MR chose to change lawyers.

MOO

Is it possible that he changed lawyers to delay the start of the trial? Since both individuals will be tried separately would/could it be beneficial for either party if the other was to be tried first? JMOO
Also, did he switch law firms as well, or just lawyers?

[wendell]

Thank you AG. Since this is now a fact I would be interested in knowing why the change was made.

I can't help but draw the conclusion that after reviewing the 3mg of disclosure Mr Mattson's advice to his client was not acceptable and MR chose to change lawyers.

MOO

I will NOT say why exactly he did this, but i do know why he did.

i can confirm that it was not at all a suggestion made to him by Mattson... there were lots factors leading up to this change...

[sillybilly]

Derstine Penman firm profile of Scott Reid:

http://derstinepenman.com/index.php/component/option,com_fabrik/Itemid,55/

[nobodyzgirl]

Is it possible that he changed lawyers to delay the start of the trial? Since both individuals will be tried separately would/could it be beneficial for either party if the other was to be tried first? JMOO
Also, did he switch law firms as well, or just lawyers?

Different firms. His former lawyer practices out of the Kitchener area, His new lawyer is practicing out of downtown Toronto. Matters like this usually appear in court once a month so the court is aware that things are moving along. I suspect we will see many more remands before anything substantial takes place. My opinion is that MR did not switch lawyers, to delay anything, because it sounds like it happened well before this court date. My opinion is that MR would rather have it go to trial, sooner rather than later, especially if he is planning to plead "not guilty".

[Dee10]

AG & Wendall perhaps you could give us a reason(s) "hypothetically" why he switched lawyers. Other people are giving or will share their opinions, so I can't see why you both couldn't, perhaps a mod could clarify please if this not correct? Please & thanks.

[sillybilly]

Also, did he switch law firms as well, or just lawyers?

MR has switched firms. Mattson is in Kitchener; Derstine Penman is a Toronto firm specializing in criminal cases. Mattson is not affiliated with them.

Sorry, slow-poke here. I see this was already answered.

[ChaChaCha]

I will NOT say why exactly he did this, but i do know why he did.

i can confirm that it was not at all a suggestion made to him by Mattson... there were lots factors leading up to this change...

A quick peek at the new firm's website will show that they are obviously well equipped to deal with a murder case. Some interesting reading on their site of previous trials including successful arguments relating to an accused's right to counsel upon initial questioning, etc. I would think that the new firm has likely already seen the evidence against MR and feel that they have a good shot in defending him against a murder charge... not to say that a defence could not include a plea bargain, reduction in charges, etc.

Sometimes he who squeals first gets the best deal, and obviously TLM beat him to the squealing punch. Obviously he needs some big sticks in order to fend off TLMs solicitors since the trials have been split. If they were being tried together then it wouldn't matter as much who had the more powerful lawyer - since in effect they would be "working together".

In order to mount a credible defence against both the Crown and TLM, some serious work will be needed, and a larger firm with more lawyers, staff and hi-tech abilities will be in a better position to spend the time needed to research and prepare.

It is not all that unusual in criminal cases for an accused to hire a lawyer asap only to change solicitors a short while after.

I think that MR just upped the ante....

[nobodyzgirl]

A quick peek at the new firm's website will show that they are obviously well equipped to deal with a murder case. Some interesting reading on their site of previous trials including successful arguments relating to an accused's right to counsel upon initial questioning, etc. I would think that the new firm has likely already seen the evidence against MR and feel that they have a good shot in defending him against a murder charge... not to say that a defence could not include a plea bargain, reduction in charges, etc.

Sometimes he who squeals first gets the best deal, and obviously TLM beat him to the squealing punch. Obviously he needs some big sticks in order to fend off TLMs solicitors since the trials have been split. If they were being tried together then it wouldn't matter as much who had the more powerful lawyer - since in effect they would be "working together".

In order to mount a credible defence against both the Crown and TLM, some serious work will be needed, and a larger firm with more lawyers, staff and hi-tech abilities will be in a better position to spend the time needed to research and prepare.

It is not all that unusual in criminal cases for an accused to hire a lawyer asap only to change solicitors a short while after.

I think that MR just upped the ante....


BBM. I don't think that TLM is going to be a very credible witness, given the run around she gave the OPP allegedly aiding them in their search - though that's just my opinion. I also think that any defence lawyer could tear her to shreds on a cross examination.

[christine2448]

If you have a problem PM, PM ,PM a mod. You can view FORUM LEADERS here. View Forum Leaders (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showgroups.php)

We do NOT need discussions on the PUBLIC board about private areas of this website. :doh: The public does not want to read your complaints!

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[ChaChaCha]

Just a question for all you law buffs out there. Since TLM has reportedly admited some type of involvment in this case can she plead not guilty to her charges? If she pleads not guilty then would she have to retract her statements thus forcing the pollice to revisit MR charges?


I had posted this link before, but I am sure it got lost in the shuffle....

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.3128/pub_detail.asp

Excerpt:

"Though rare, such predators are more common than the general public knows. Why? In most instances, when a female rapes and kills a victim, the act is done in conjunction with a male partner. As such, when caught, the females play innocent and blame the male. This strategy has proven highly effective over the years because people are hesitant to believe that a woman could rape and murder. But it does happen, and sometimes, the female will act alone."

Another portion of this straightforward article which includes a profile, etc... interesting reading....

"To capture their prey, these women use a rouse to trick their victims who are always smaller in size. They use their gender as a cover for their evil intentions because most people find it hard to believe that the fairer sex could rape and kill a child."

I seriously believe that there are more evil undercurrents in this case than we even know...

[sillybilly]

I also think that any defence lawyer could tear her to shreds on a cross examination.<snip>

According to Derstine Penman's main page "News and Updates", Reid recently had his client acquitted when:

"After vigorous cross-examination of the two witnesses by Mr. Reid, he was able to show that they were completely unreliable witnesses".

(from: http://derstinepenman.com/)

[sillybilly]

Just a question for all you law buffs out there. Since TLM has reportedly admited some type of involvment in this case can she plead not guilty to her charges? If she pleads not guilty then would she have to retract her statements thus forcing the pollice to revisit MR charges?

She could still plead "not guilty" if defence could prove she gave a confession under duress or without a lawyer present (if it can be proven she requested one and that request was not granted).

Even IF she was to retract her confession, presumably LE had more than her confession to charge MR, so not sure it would make any difference in his charges.

ETA: In Regina v. Phillion, Phillion recanted his confession and defence presented he had "an anti-social personality disorder which prompted him to falsely confess to the crime. A psychiatrist and a psychologist testified that Phillion had a propensity to lie and to invent stories to make him feel important." Phillion was convicted but appealed and a new trial was ordered.

from: http://www3.quicklaw.com/cgi-bin/LNC-prod/lnetdoc.pl?DOCNO=932

This past March, the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned Phillion's conviction after he spent 31 years in prison.

http://www.thestar.com/article/597541

[PepperFritz]

I only question TM's involvement at trial as I think that it may go to the prosecution's intention to show that TLM had a reason to target Tori and not a different child....

What leads you to believe that it is the prosecution's intention to show that it was not a random abduction? LE has already stated publicly that they believe that Tori was NOT specifically targeted, and that it was a "crime of opportunity".

[CuriousJorge]

One day, which won't come soon enough for most of us...justice will be served. The facts will be known and ease our troubled, sorrowful minds. I just wish there was a solution to stop the sickness of pedophilia and some peoples sick warped minds, who feel the need or urge to harm or kill innocent children. Makes me feel so sad to think of all the people whos lives are forever (usually not for the better) changed by these senseless, sick acts.

The first thought that came to my mind when I read MR has changed lawyers was because of conflict between lawyer and client. Is it possible MR claims he's not guilt, but reviewing evidence, lawyer knows different and chooses not to represent MR being too hard to fight based on evidence?? Just wondering. I wonder who's idea it was to change, MR's or lawyers? Interesting...

I'm hoping that we can all post here and be respectful to each others opinions and information. Wendall it's obviously up to you whether you want to divulge info, but I feel it is unfair to, let's say "dangle a carrot in front of our noses". We all want justice for Tori, and we are here for that reason, to see justice served on those found guilty of taking this innocent child's life. It would be nice and very much appreciated to have you share what you know, as it would put some of our questions to bed, but as I said, it's your choice. Don't feel attacked when people comment on the info you present, it's just we are all having such a hard time understanding this horrific crime.

[wendell]

it was not my intention to dangle a carrot, it was only my intention to correct the statement that perhaps it was his former lawyer's idea for him to seek new representation, as that is not the case at all...
i do not feel that it is in my power to divulge his reason's behind seeking a new lawyer, its between him, his lawyers, and those who are close to him...

[Dee10]

it was not my intention to dangle a carrot, it was only my intention to correct the statement that perhaps it was his former lawyer's idea for him to seek new representation, as that is not the case at all...
i do not feel that it is in my power to divulge his reason's behind seeking a new lawyer, its between him, his lawyers, and those who are close to him...

Thank you for the information & clarification, muchly apreciated.

[Turbododger]

Well, I am back from my holidays, and am disheartened to read what has transpired in my week away. I can only say, that I hope everyone tries to remain positive and objective, in light of everything that has been said.

Regarding Rafferty switching lawyers:

We discussed this scenario a few threads back. I am going back to re-read. I can't remember which legal eagle had the insight on defence lawyers "stepping aside" for their client's best interest (it involved guilt/incriminating evidence), I *think* it was Pepper. Perhaps the sleuther could reiterate that very valid statement, in light of today's events.

The switching of law firms is major IMO. I am going to review a few things before I make a further comment on that.

One other thing: has it ever been determined if Rafferty is receiving Legal Aid? I am thinking that this is probably not the case. Anyone?

[sillybilly]

The switching of law firms is major IMO. I am going to review a few things before I make a further comment on that.<snip>

ITA Turbo. Mattson sure doesn't lack in the expertise department when it comes to criminal defence, and I feel he would not have deferred to another firm if he felt it was a case he was going to win. IMO, it will likely be based on his statement re what MR may have told LE before Mattson became involved. I felt at the time that Mattson was setting the stage, and I still feel that is what he did.

With all due respect to Wendell, whoever the source is regarding the reason behind the switch, it well may have been MR's ultimate decision ... based on his lawyer telling him he couldn't fairly represent him and wasn't going to be able to win this case for him based on his knowledge todate. Could also be based on a change of venue being in the wind, and/or Mattson felt his current caseload was such that he could not devote the time and resources required for a case of this magnitude potentially taking him out of town.

I could be all wet here, but just MOO.

[Turbododger]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/17/victoria-stafford.html

Asked if Rafferty would plead not guilty, Reid initially refused comment but then added, that's a "safe assumption."

[ChaChaCha]

What leads you to believe that it is the prosecution's intention to show that it was not a random abduction? LE has already stated publicly that they believe that Tori was NOT specifically targeted, and that it was a "crime of opportunity".


I am not sure when LE made that statement - if it was before the arrests and the connection between TLM, Carol and TM came to light? I would think so, since absolute "stranger" abductions are much less frequent than when the abductor knows the victim.

I don't believe it was random at all. I think that Tori was most definitely targeted by TLM, especially if it is true that she had been hanging around the school prior to Tori's abduction. I think that it is likely that Tori had met TLM before and had probably been with TM when she met with Carol over the dog breeding scenario... Tori was an outgoing little girl, and I it seems plausible that she and TLM had a connection over the dogs. TLM could easily have used Tori's love of puppies to get Tori to go with her at the school that day without hesitation - TLM couldn't count on having enough time to convince a child she didn't know to quickly leave with her. I also believe that TLM and TM knew each other better than TM let on, but that is JMO.

I hate to go back to the article I referred to before, but the article makes it clear that females often fly below the radar because of their gender, and how they escalate in offenses over time.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.3128/pub_detail.asp

"Female predators search for that which is easy to get. If she works in a nursing home, she may go after the elderly .... If she teaches, she often sets her sights on students. These women crave what is familiar to them, and they watch their prey over time to assess how easy it would be to attack."

In the recent case of Sandra Cantu, the neighbour (also a suspected female sex offender) targeted little Sandra, and when the opportunity arose appeared to be well prepared to carry out the abduction.

Same article: "their life pattern tends to be as follows:

Loneliness
Child abuse (victim of)
Fantasy
Acting out (violent against animals & other children)
Sexually promiscuous
Psychopathic behavior (stealing, fire setting, lying)
Attaching to steady figure (older male)
Increased time alone
Practicing violence
Kidnap
Kill"

"In most instances, when a female rapes and kills a victim, the act is done in conjunction with a male partner. As such, when caught, the females play innocent and blame the male. This strategy has proven highly effective over the years because people are hesitant to believe that a woman could rape and murder".

a la Bernardo...

I am starting to think that TLM is the sexual predator here - she certainly fits the profile to a T - and needed an accomplice with wheels to carry out her plan. I think that as the investigation continues and as each defendant is pitted against the other that the defence will try to prove that TLM targeted Tori (since apparently MR didn't know her) for her own purposes, and MR's defence will chime in to put the blame on TLM as well.

Hey, I could be wrong - like I said before, I do not know what the evidence is against MR, but given that TLM immediately co-operated and pointed the finger at MR as the assailant while painting herself as non-participating, I can see the prosecution alleging that it was not a random abduction at all but targeted specifically to just one little girl that TLM chose.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I wanted to get it out there that women offenders do target their victims..and in this case I think it was Tori's good looks and beaming personality together with the fact that she knew who the child was, that led TLM to choose her.

[Turbododger]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/17/10167571.html

The 28-year-old man charged with killing Tori Stafford has a new lawyer who's suggesting his client will plead not guilty when or if the case goes to trial.

"This is a considerable process that is just beginning now. Throughout that process Mr. Rafferty, just like every person charged with a criminal offence in this country, is presumed to be innocent." said Rafferty's new lawyer.

BBM:

Deal in the making?

Just beginning now? Sounds like he just came on board.

[Dee10]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaChaCha http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I only question TM's involvement at trial as I think that it may go to the prosecution's intention to show that TLM had a reason to target Tori and not a different child....


Pepperfriz:
What leads you to believe that it is the prosecution's intention to show that it was not a random abduction? LE has already stated publicly that they believe that Tori was NOT specifically targeted, and that it was a "crime of opportunity".

Not sure how to do a double quote, sorry. Hopefully everyone understands what I did to compensate lol.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes LE has stated that, but wouldn't they be looking for motive? I don't believe they would come out and say "they are looking for a motive" as they are keeping everything close to the vest. Unfortunately Tori hasn't been found and her body can't speak for evidence, so that is a huge complication IMO. I believe they are still investigating all aspects & everyone right now looking for a possible motive. I think they are keeping any open mind as they have still not ruled anyone out. Was Tori targeted or not; is a big question to investigate given there is an admitted acknowledgment between TM, JM,TLM & Carol that should/needs to be determined in the investigation. It would be foolish on their part NOT to do so, however...my layman thoughts/feeling is (at this point) the family has nothing to do with this. However...because LE haven't said otherwise & they know more than us, I can't fault anyone for their beliefs & I haven't locked into a firm belief with so little evidence.

[Turbododger]

Det. Sgt. Reg Pitts, who heads the cold-case squad of the Toronto police, said changing geography – there was snow on the ground when Tori was killed – can be one reason for not finding the body. "But that does not mean it will never be found," he said.

Pitts mentioned as an example how on Dec. 31, 1984, a stranger walking in fields stumbled on the body of Christine Jessop, who had gone missing three months earlier from Queensville, Ont. The 9-year-old had been abducted, raped and killed. Her body was found about 43 kilometres from where she was last seen.

In contrast, Nicole Morin, 8, hasn't been seen since July 1985 when she vanished from her Etobicoke apartment building. "There's been no trace of her," said Pitts, who has been with homicide squad for 11 years.

Searches can go on indefinitely, but Pitts said officers aren't likely to go over the same ground forever.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/665628

[izzy45]

Just been catching up now, so this is just an FYI...

** Disclosure is given at court appearances. It needs to be endorsed on the court record...kind of an official "paper trail" on court record.

** It's not uncommon in high profile cases to change lawyers. Nothing against his previous lawyer, but a Toronto firm possibly has more experience in this type of case, he may have admitted some sort of guilt that would make it unethical for previous counsel to continue on, there are a multitude of reasons for switching counsel. It could be counsel bowing out, could be MR's request...that's lawyer/client privledge, but there really are so many scenarios for this to occur.

** Changing jurisdiction has less to do with ongoing matters within the court, and more for the accused being able to get a fair trial. The Crown does have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, but I'm also quite certain this will end up a jury trial and trying to find a panel within the jurisdiction of Woodstock/London would be difficult given the widespread knowledge, news, media, etc of this particular case.

** As for MR pleading not guilty if and when it goes to trial...the stakes are too high IMO for him to plain out admit guilt. You have a better chance with a jury of your peers...but that's just my opinion. His counsel may think they have found a technicality that may get him off, may think the evidence isn't that sound, etc. MR may maintain his innocence simply at the prospect of going to jail for life, or being declared a dangerous offender. There are still to many "Ifs" that we aren't aware of, but will become aware of over time.

** Our courts are "over burdened". It takes time to go to trial. Full disclosure, availability of the Judiciary, counsel, etc. 2010 is probably a good estimate, given they are in custody, but it still takes time to coordinate everything.

** However, I also believe that they wouldn't be able to keep either in custody IF they didn't have the appropriate evidence to do so. I don't believe that they would keepMR or TLM in custody based solely on the confession of TLM. They would require more then that and would have sufficient evidence to back up the arrest warrant and the remand in custody.

** Even with Murder, you can ask for a bail hearing in front of a Superior Court Judge and I don't believe this has been done. If it were me and I was innocent and could provide an alibi for my whereabouts or an appropriate surety to assist in my release I would be asking.

As I said, just an FYI based on my knowledge/experiene

I haven't seen this posted, but does anyone know if MR has a criminal record? Maybe I missed it, it's been a long week!

[izzy45]

On an aside, I have been following this case from the beginning, as have all of you. Above and beyond, my hope is that Tori is returned home to her family and where she belongs. I have a strong faith and belief in the Justice system that those who are responsible for what has happened will be dealt with accordingly.

I think there are some strong emotions running lately, and I understand that, but we are all entitltled to our opinions, we all have our beliefs and nobody should be "put down" because of that.

It really saddens me to see this thread slow down so much. I don't know the family, I didn't know Tori, but given everything, this is a little girl whose life needs to be remembered, and people need to keep it public to insure that happens. Allow the truth to come out...and I do believe at some point that will happen...and celebrate the life that was and hope for Justice to prevail.

I would hate to think that if this were to happen to one of my children, a few opinions would keep others from talking. This is websleuths right?? We're sleuthing. Bouncing back ideas, sharing thoughts. We may all come from different angles, but we can still be adult enough to share our thoughts.

The end result is...lets not forget Tori, pray for Justice and be respectful of one another and "adult" to look fairly at each other's opinion

[PepperFritz]

I am not sure when LE made that statement - if it was before the arrests and the connection between TLM, Carol and TM came to light?


It was at the time of the arrests, and it was based on statements by both TLM and TM.


I don't believe it was random at all. I think that Tori was most definitely targeted by TLM....

You're missing my point. What you and I believe in that regard is irrelevant to (1) what LE and the prosecution believe, and (2) what they are able to prove. LE has made no further public statements about the matter, so their "official" position is that Tori was not targeted and that it was a "crime of opportunity".

I have stated previously on the forum that another extremely reliable forum member reported to me a conversation with a LE member that they KNOW that Tori's abduction is connected to a relationship between TM and TLM, but that they are unable to prove it. Meanwhile, TM and TLM have denied anything more than a "passing" acquaintance, and TLM has stated that she didn't know Tori was TM's daughter.

Although many of us would like evidence of the TM/TLM relationship to come to light, in the end it is not that relevant to proving TLM is guilty of the crime she is accused of. At best, it would bolster motive, but when they already have a confession, who needs motive?

But, regardless, it currently appears that LE has no evidence about the TM/TLM relationship and its direct connection to Tori's abduction. Therefore, the prosecution cannot argue that Tori was specifically targeted due to that relationship.

[Turbododger]

** Even with Murder, you can ask for a bail hearing in front of a Superior Court Judge and I don't believe this has been done. If it were me and I was innocent and could provide an alibi for my whereabouts or an appropriate surety to assist in my release I would be asking.

As I said, just an FYI based on my knowledge/experiene

I haven't seen this posted, but does anyone know if MR has a criminal record? Maybe I missed it, it's been a long week!


Bolded by Me: Thanks for your perspective, Izzy. Your post raises some interesting points.

I have never heard it rumoured or mentioned that Rafferty has an alibi. Where was he during the time of abduction and the hours afterwards? It has certainly been said that his car was suspected to have had Tori in it, and there are those that have speculated as to him driving the vehicle just prior to or around the time of abduction in the Esso videotape, and it was been thought that him and TLM were at the HD together on video in the early evening hours, but if somehow, these were all illusions, and not really him, where was Rafferty??? What is his alibi?

I remember reading that his mother had been away from work to attend court hearings for him. I have no idea if he actually has a criminal record. Perhaps someone here can shed some light on it.

[Turbododger]

I just wanted to say, that when Victoria Stafford went missing, I found her thread through the forums. I had been a new member on WS for about a month, finding it because of the Haleigh Cummings case. I was pleased to see a thread started for a local, Ontario girl, that needed awareness. There were very few members reading or posting on Tori's case, at that time. As the intensity of the coverage grew, partly because of the case not being declared an Amber Alert, IMO, so too did the number of WS participating in trying to find little Tori. A video of the girl walking away with the perp, a composite sketch of the POI, a video of a vehicle of interest, daily pressers by her mother, a Facebook group with a vast number of members.....these things all generated public interest in little Tori's plight. More and more Canadian members joined WS (purely speculation on my part) to participate in the Tori threads. I found enough nerve to post on the case, and haven't stopped since. I haven't stopped when I have been personally attacked, I haven't stopped when I thought the threads were off topic, and I didn't stop when people were discussing things I didn't agree with. As a member of an open idea forum, I fully expect these things to occur. I certainly didn't think that I would get emotionally involved in a missing person's case for a little girl I didn't even know. But everyday (pretty much), I come on these boards and search for answers. There is something about Tori that brings me here, and keeps me searching.

I hope every member of Websleuths that is actively or passively participating in Tori's case will continue to do so, and will continue to respectfully express their thoughts on her case.

[Turbododger]

Here is a clip from Pepperfritz' post on a previous thread:

...If their client confesses to them, they must either tell the prosecution (and sink their client), withhold the information (and risk being disbarred if it anyone ever finds out), or immediately cease representing the client. And that is why ethical attorneys choose to resign the case in such a circumstance, so that they do not have to risk their careers but at the same time can give their client a chance to be represented by a new lawyer and still be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

See entire post here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

[PepperFritz]

I can't remember which legal eagle had the insight on defence lawyers "stepping aside" for their client's best interest (it involved guilt/incriminating evidence), I *think* it was Pepper. Perhaps the sleuther could reiterate that very valid statement, in light of today's events.


Yeah, that was me. Wendell says that Mattson did not "step aside", that it was MR's decision to retain another lawyer. Also, when lawyer's "step aside", they usually state publicly that they are withdrawing from the case. So it seems unlikely that he has done that in this case.

I have no insight/theories as to why MR has retained a new lawyer. Maybe he just doesn't get on with Mattson. Maybe now that he has reviewed the evidence against MR, Mattson is advising a plea agreement, and MR wants a lawyer who has the confidence to try and argue a "not guilty" defense. Who knows?

One other thing: has it ever been determined if Rafferty is receiving Legal Aid?

Well, the media reported that at the defendants first court hearing mention was made of the fact that neither defendant had the means to hire a lawyer and were in the process of applying for Legal Aid. It seems reasonable to assume that their financial situations have not changed.

[roseofsharon]

Crime of opportunity vs Tori being targeted.

We watched a video of an unknown person walking with Tori after school. LE chose to label this a missing person case, due to the fact that Tori walked away with this person willingly -- ?? LE are well aware of the tactics used by perps to lure children. This was clearly an abduction!

LE and the prosecution can label this a crime of opportunity (unplanned) if they like, however, there are just too many connections between these families, i.e. discussing breeding dogs, walking dogs, TM offering furniture, the two families living only blocks apart, Tori leaving the school with TLM because she obviously knew her, along with other speculated connections.

I don't believe TLM didn't know Tori was TM's daughter and IMO she was targeted for reasons unknown at this point in time.

TLM just waited for the most opportunistic time to abduct Tori.

Just MOO and IAETI - :)

[Turbododger]

-Good Time Charlie's: 434 Dundas St.

-Let's Eat Pizza: 444 Dundas St.

-Pawntario: 451 Dundas St.

-Methadone Clinic: 461 Dundas St.

[PepperFritz]

Excellent post, Izzy, agree with everything you've said.

On the bail issue: I would bet that the #1 reason neither defendant has requested bail is that they know that their lives would be more at risk outside of custody than in custody. Plus neither has family financially able to provide adequate collateral (e.g. house/property, savings, investments, etc) to a bondsman.

I doubt that bail would be granted, though. Neither has "roots in the community" and/or stable job/career. Plus MR reportedly "fled" after the crime took place, and TLM helped him do so. They're both poster children for "flight risk". Plus they are charged with a very serious, violent crime and the issue of "danger to the community" would also be a factor....

[PepperFritz]

Crime of opportunity vs Tori being targeted.

We watched a video of an unknown person walking with Tori after school. LE chose to label this a missing person case, due to the fact that Tori walked away with this person willingly -- ?? LE are well aware of the tactics used by perps to lure children. This was clearly an abduction!

LE and the prosecution can label this a crime of opportunity (unplanned) if they like, however, there are just too many connections between these families, i.e. discussing breeding dogs, walking dogs, TM offering furniture, the two families living only blocks apart, Tori leaving the school with TLM because she obviously knew her, along with other speculated connections.

I don't believe TLM didn't know Tori was TM's daughter and IMO she was targeted for reasons unknown at this point in time.

TLM just waited for the most opportunistic time to abduct Tori.

Just MOO and IAETI - :)


I agree 100% with you on that. However, the issue was whether or not the prosecution would be arguing that she was targeted, in view of LE's previously stated position that it was a "crime of opportunity", and the current lack of hard evidence proving that she was targeted.

[PepperFritz]

Det. Sgt. Reg Pitts, who heads the cold-case squad of the Toronto police, said changing geography – there was snow on the ground when Tori was killed – can be one reason for not finding the body. "But that does not mean it will never be found," he said.


I'm thinking that she will probably be found when the vegetation has died down and before snow has fallen -- i.e. in the late fall. Or in the early spring of next year.

[Dee10]

It was at the time of the arrests, and it was based on statements by both TLM and TM.



You're missing my point. What you and I believe in that regard is irrelevant to (1) what LE and the prosecution believe, and (2) what they are able to prove. LE has made no further public statements about the matter, so their "official" position is that Tori was not targeted and that it was a "crime of opportunity".

I have stated previously on the forum that another extremely reliable forum member reported to me a conversation with a LE member that they KNOW that Tori's abduction is connected to a relationship between TM and TLM, but that they are unable to prove it. Meanwhile, TM and TLM have denied anything more than a "passing" acquaintance, and TLM has stated that she didn't know Tori was TM's daughter.

Although many of us would like evidence of the TM/TLM relationship to come to light, in the end it is not that relevant to proving TLM is guilty of the crime she is accused of. At best, it would bolster motive, but when they already have a confession, who needs motive?

But, regardless, it currently appears that LE has no evidence about the TM/TLM relationship and its direct connection to Tori's abduction. Therefore, the prosecution cannot that Tori was specifically targeted due to that relationship.

I really respect your opinion Pepperfritz, but I highlighted something I wish you would shed more light on, if you would? I think motive is going to come into play where two people stand separately accused. Although TLM has confessed so to speak, we don't know what MR's defense is going to be. But regardless, I believe they are aiming at slam-dunking this case with all the eyes on them & motive I would think...they would be very much investigating (forgetting a TM connection). Possibly they won't need motive, but I think they are going to want it in their arsenal JMO.

[PepperFritz]

Possibly they won't need motive, but I think they are going to want it in their arsenal JMO.



But they DO have a motive. At the time of the arrests, LE stated that the abduction was "sexually motivated" and a "crime of opportunity". That's a perfectly adequate "motive" for a crime like this, they don't "need" a "personal" TM-connected motive in order to prove their case.

Yes, they may still be investigating and trying to prove the "relationship with TM" angle, and if they come up with some hard evidence they'll definitely use it. But bear this in mind: Trying to argue that personal motive WITHOUT such hard evidence would add an unnecessary complication/distraction to the trial, and could backfire on them. The public and/or jury might be offended by the prosecution's attempt to again place blame on TM when many people believe she has been "vindicated" of suspicion. Unless there is hard evidence of the "personal motive" angle, it would be safer to go with the "sexual motive/crime of opportunity" angle.

JMO....

[matou]

-Good Time Charlie's: 434 Dundas St.

-Let's Eat Pizza: 444 Dundas St.

-Pawntario: 451 Dundas St.

-Methadone Clinic: 461 Dundas St.

Boy, am I ever happy you're back! :woohoo:

I just want to say publicly that I :beats: your dedication and perseverance in this case. Big love to everyone else, too.

I'm wondering about the locations you listed here. We know that GTC was talked about for awhile and the meth clinic is across the street (always a good idea!) What about the Pizza place and the pawn shop(?) Any interesting info about those places? I'm wondering if these were places on Dundas that LE wanted surveillance tapes from (much too late, unfortunately)

[roseofsharon]

I agree 100% with you on that. However, the issue was whether or not the prosecution would be arguing that she was targeted, in view of LE's previously stated position that it was a "crime of opportunity", and the current lack of hard evidence proving that she was targeted.

Law is certainly not my expertise, but a crime of opportunity would carry a lighter sentence due to no premeditation. There may be many undisclosed facts (to the public) with the prosecution that will prove Tori was targeted.

How much weight does LE's position carry? Wouldn't the prosecution's position override any position held by LE.

Thank you for all your insight.

[Dee10]

But they DO have a motive. At the time of the arrests, LE stated that the abduction was "sexually motivated" and a "crime of opportunity". That's a perfectly adequate "motive" for a crime like this, they don't "need" a "personal" TM-connected motive in order to prove their case.

Yes, they may still be investigating and trying to prove the "relationship with TM" angle, and if they come up with some hard evidence they'll definitely use it. But bear this in mind: Trying to argue that personal motive WITHOUT such hard evidence would add an unnecessary complication/distraction to the trial, and could backfire on them. The public and/or jury might be offended by the prosecution's attempt to again place blame on TM when many people believe she has been "vindicated" of suspicion. Unless there is hard evidence of the "personal motive" angle, it would be safer to go with the "sexual motive/crime of opportunity" angle.

JMO....

Thanks you're right, I forgot the word they used originally (someone help me here with the orig. terminology LE used), but a sexually motivated crime certainly fit in here & it was the way I took it at that time. I think you mis-understood, I meant/said forgetting at TM connection. But I think motive is going to be very important & thank you for reminding me that they have established that. (((SADDLY))) OK, so yes...we know what LE thinks the motive is. We can "probably" expect TLM to plead guilty, unless she tries to get out of kidnapping (good luck). MR looks like he's pleading not-guilty. So what could MR's defense be if he was caught on tape???

[Turbododger]

Boy, am I ever happy you're back! :woohoo:

I just want to say publicly that I :beats: your dedication and perseverance in this case. Big love to everyone else, too.

I'm wondering about the locations you listed here. We know that GTC was talked about for awhile and the meth clinic is across the street (always a good idea!) What about the Pizza place and the pawn shop(?) Any interesting info about those places? I'm wondering if these were places on Dundas that LE wanted surveillance tapes from (much too late, unfortunately)

Thanks, Matou, such fanfare!:blushing:

I have come back after a somewhat restful vacation, to get back to the grind. :treadmill:

I just noticed a coincidence in the closeness of the locations of these places. TLM and MTR were thought to have met at a pizza place. I have no idea if it was this pizza place, but there aren't that many in Woodstock.

Also, not sure if it's related to the case, but this happened last week. I think it's possibly tied to the case:

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1647474

Good point about the video surveilance tapes. I do think LE wanted the tape of specific places MTR and TLM were known to frequent, that they didn't know prior to the arrests.

[ChaChaCha]

Thanks you're right, I forgot the word they used originally (someone help me here with the orig. terminology LE used), but a sexually motivated crime certainly fit in here & it was the way I took it at that time. I think you mis-understood, I meant/said forgetting at TM connection. But I think motive is going to be very important & thank you for reminding me that they have established that. (((SADDLY))) OK, so yes...we know what LE thinks the motive is. We can "probably" expect TLM to plead guilty, unless she tries to get out of kidnapping (good luck). MR looks like he's pleading not-guilty. So what could MR's defense be if he was caught on tape???

Does LE announcing at the time of the arrests that the crime was sexually motivated mean that they had evidence to that effect, or were they relying on TLM's statement that the abduction was executed for MR's benefit as the sole motive? I seem to recall that when the charges for TLM were "upgraded" that MR's were amended too- if someone can find that I am wondering if his charges specifically include sexual assault or if the charge itself means murder & sexual assault - now that is going to bug me until I figure it out....Pepper? Do you know offhand?

I still think that motive is going to play a large part... only because you have a split trial where the prosecution will have to show why the two of them collaborated and each side pointing the finger at the other as having the only malicious motive...

Question: Will TLM's juvenile record be unsealed/produced as her earlier victim was also a young girl and therefore goes to a pre-disposition to violence against girls?
Article from end of May speculating on the division of guilt between the accused... I hadn't seen this before...
http://www.thespec.com/article/572782

[Flowercb]

Does anyone know if LE have searched the Rockwood Conservation area? I was there yesterday and got the creeps walking near the Old Mill. It is close to Guelph, Ontario and C. Hamlett mentions it on her site.

I did not know that this was the same area that she mentioned until I checked her site tonight. There are a lot of caves and crevices in the woods in this park.

[matou]

Does anyone know if LE have searched the Rockwood Conservation area? I was there yesterday and got the creeps walking near the Old Mill. It is close to Guelph, Ontario and C. Hamlett mentions it on her site.

I did not know that this was the same area that she mentioned until I checked her site tonight. There are a lot of caves and crevices in the woods in this park.

I'm not sure if LE searched the conservation area but they searched the area of Rockwood on May 20th and 21st.

Here is the link: http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Police+expanding+search+Victoria+Stafford+body/1616317/story.html

From the article: Police, using search dogs and helicopters searched farm land around Rockwood until about 9:30 p.m. Wednesday and were out again Thursday morning. Officials would not confirm the location where they are focusing their efforts.

I'm not sure where LE is searching now.

[CuriousJorge]

Crime of opportunity vs Tori being targeted.

We watched a video of an unknown person walking with Tori after school. LE chose to label this a missing person case, due to the fact that Tori walked away with this person willingly -- ?? LE are well aware of the tactics used by perps to lure children. This was clearly an abduction!

LE and the prosecution can label this a crime of opportunity (unplanned) if they like, however, there are just too many connections between these families, i.e. discussing breeding dogs, walking dogs, TM offering furniture, the two families living only blocks apart, Tori leaving the school with TLM because she obviously knew her, along with other speculated connections.

I don't believe TLM didn't know Tori was TM's daughter and IMO she was targeted for reasons unknown at this point in time.

TLM just waited for the most opportunistic time to abduct Tori.

Just MOO and IAETI - :)

Just a thought I've had for a while and as you mentioned about too many coincidences, I think TLM may have been protecting her mom from possible charges (drugs) and TM may have been protecting JG from same charges. Yes too many coincidences happening to say the least.:waitasec:

[Flowercb]

Was the rumour thread closed down? I haven't been on here for a while and don't have it highlighted any longer.

[izzy45]

True, I couldn't see either accused being a good candidate for bail, especially TLM showing a history or breaching court orders and I agree both are probably at a substatial risk to take flight if given the opportunity. Given that Bail in Canada is typically granted without the deposit of money, and the money only being collected should they not attend court as required, if I were innocent, I would be trying for bail. (Just my thoughts 'cause I would hate to spend any time in a jail or locked in a small cell!)

I'm really just posting this because you all seems to have some great ideas and articulate your thoughts so well! Hopefully in the end Tori will have her justice!

Have a great weekend ladies.

[scotslass]

Was the rumour thread closed down? I haven't been on here for a while and don't have it highlighted any longer.

Don't know It took me long enough to find this thread as i have not been posting due to a family medical emergency (Dh has been in and out of hospital a few times now ughh). Still everyday i pray that the news headlines I catch will be about Tori and her finally coming home.

Here's hoping for today. I have 1/2 an hour and I'm going to try and get caught up here as much as i can lol

[Turbododger]

This is one area we hadn't really touched on, and I wanted to see if anyone remembers the references for both TLM and Rodney going to some sort of school?

I thought I had read that TLM was sort of trying to get an equivalent education of some sort. Does anyone remember that?

[Turbododger]

Bandidos victims executed one by one: witness

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/17/bandidos-trial.html

[Dee10]

Izzy45

"Court documents show Rafferty does not have a criminal record." http://www.chtv.com/ch/chchnews/story.html?id=1612290

[Dee10]

Law is certainly not my expertise, but a crime of opportunity would carry a lighter sentence due to no premeditation. There may be many undisclosed facts (to the public) with the prosecution that will prove Tori was targeted.

How much weight does LE's position carry? Wouldn't the prosecution's position override any position held by LE.

Thank you for all your insight.

I believe in Tara's last press conf. she explaining that Carol had said TLM knew who Tori was, but not that parent connection or something to that effect. Tara also mentioned in the interview that it was her understanding that TLM was hanging around the school for days before Tori went missing. I am guessing they could have more/previous surveillance tapes or witnesses. Given if that is true, you could still have a crime of (waiting for) opportunity which would then be premeditated. But I am not sure it matters since the charge was upgraded to kidnapping which carries lst degree murder charge in the event of death. Perhaps it would be relevant if TLM were to claim she was forced into it and it would be hard to buy that if she were hanging around the school for days.

[PepperFritz]

... a crime of opportunity would carry a lighter sentence due to no premeditation....


No, that's not correct. There is no such thing as a non-premeditated abduction. ALL abductions are "premeditated", whether the person abducted was picked for personal reasons or at random.


There may be many undisclosed facts (to the public) with the prosecution that will prove Tori was targeted.


Sure, that's quite possible. But so far we have been given no information whatsoever to that effect.


How much weight does LE's position carry? Wouldn't the prosecution's position override any position held by LE.


They are one and the same. LE provides the evidence, and the prosecution argues the case. The prosecution cannot argue a motive for which LE has not given them evidence. When I refer to LE's "position", I simply mean that as of their last public statement, they have indicated that their evidence points to a "crime of opportunity" and that Tori was not targeted. Sure, that may have changed in the meantime; but if so, they haven't said so publicly.

[PepperFritz]

So what could MR's defense be if he was caught on tape???


That would depend on what he was doing when he was "caught on tape". What is it that you think they may have caught him on tape doing?

[Dee10]

Hey sorry, guess I should have clarified caught on tape. What I meant was if they have all 3 in the car maybe at the Esso & then at HD, perhaps more places proving he was with TLM & Tori for a long portion of the time, would could his defense be aside from any technicalities (gawd I hope there are not any in this case)?

[PepperFritz]

Does LE announcing at the time of the arrests that the crime was sexually motivated mean that they had evidence to that effect, or were they relying on TLM's statement that the abduction was executed for MR's benefit as the sole motive?


We don't know. I suspect TLM told them the motive was sexual assault, then they later found evidence of that (e.g. photos?).


I seem to recall that when the charges for TLM were "upgraded" that MR's were amended too- if someone can find that I am wondering if his charges specifically include sexual assault or if the charge itself means murder & sexual assault - now that is going to bug me until I figure it out....Pepper? Do you know offhand?


The "Abduction" part was upgraded to "Kidnapping". "Sexual Assault" would not be "added" to the First Degree Murder charge, because the First Degree Murder charge would encompass that. Only court documents will tell you whether MR and/or TLM have been accused of sexual assault in addition to kidnapping and murder.


I still think that motive is going to play a large part... only because you have a split trial where the prosecution will have to show why the two of them collaborated and each side pointing the finger at the other as having the only malicious motive...


If they only have evidence of sexual assault, then it is going to be assumed (and no doubt argued by the prosecution) that the "most motivated" person was MR. But if there is evidence of of a personal motive on TLM's part, then MR's defense will have ammunition to argue that SHE was the ringleader. The prosecution just wants them both behind bars, so there is no motivation for them to try and get a "who was more responsible" debate going, it only serves to cloud the issues. Its best line of argument is going to be that they are equally responsible, with MR the pervert being the driving force.


Question: Will TLM's juvenile record be unsealed/produced as her earlier victim was also a young girl and therefore goes to a pre-disposition to violence against girls?

Dunno. Again, with a confession the prosecution doesn't need it. But it's something MR's defense will want to see introduced.

[PepperFritz]

What I meant was if they have all 3 in the car maybe at the Esso & then at HD, perhaps more places proving he was with TLM & Tori for a long portion of the time, would could his defense be aside from any technicalities (gawd I hope there are not any in this case)?

All such a tape would do is prove that Tori in his car for a period of time on the day that she was abducted. It wouldn't prove that MR abducted her, sexually assaulted her, and/or murdered her. He could claim that he merely saw them walking down the street, offered them a lift, drove them somewhere and dropped them off safe and sound.

If LE has evidence that bodily fluids from both MR and Tori were found in the car, then that would prove that MR abducted and sexually assaulted Tori. He could then admit that he abducted/assaulted her, but claim that he dropped her off somewhere with TLM safe and sound and had no part in her murder. However, even if he could somehow prove that he did not directly murder her (e.g. that she was murdered by TLM after he dropped them off), he would still be guilty of First Degree Murder, since she died as a result of the original crime of Abduction.

Now, if LE has evidence that a significant amount of Tori's blood was found in the car, as well as a video of the three of them in the car together -- it would be pretty hard to have a plausible defense for that. But without the video or bodily fluids evidence -- just the blood in the car -- he could argue that he lent TLM the car and was not even present.

[Turbododger]

Does anyone have any theories on what the deal is with the black spray paint, besides the obvious?

Black spray paint is possibly on the seat that is missing.

Black spray paint is also purported to be among other items purchased at HD, on the 8th.

[roseofsharon]

Does anyone have any theories on what the deal is with the black spray paint, besides the obvious?

Black spray paint is possibly on the seat that is missing.

Black spray paint is also purported to be among other items purchased at HD, on the 8th.

Turbo ... I wasn't sure if I missed a post. Please refer to posts below from some time ago. Do we have any further information regarding the number of times MR changed the paint on his car after April 8th or for that matter, how often did he change the colour of his vehicle even prior to April 8th. This is very relevant IMO and I would think to his defense.

Painting the Car
:waitasec: Quote:
Originally Posted by wendell http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

Whoa -- this raises a red flag!! Every single time it gets done. Hmmm, and why would someone do this kind of painstaking work so often. Wendall -- approximately how many times would you say you have observed this being done -- I think you have brought up a very important fact.

MOO
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/post_thanks.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=3798112&securitytoken=1247961222-2a60e3d22afc5ee07726051a546372dac56cb241)

[paris_paris]

Thanks you're right, I forgot the word they used originally (someone help me here with the orig. terminology LE used), but a sexually motivated crime certainly fit in here & it was the way I took it at that time. I think you mis-understood, I meant/said forgetting at TM connection. But I think motive is going to be very important & thank you for reminding me that they have established that. (((SADDLY))) OK, so yes...we know what LE thinks the motive is. We can "probably" expect TLM to plead guilty, unless she tries to get out of kidnapping (good luck). MR looks like he's pleading not-guilty. So what could MR's defense be if he was caught on tape???

I've been away at the cabin all week, so just catching up quickly.

Caught this post, and the statement I remember is "Tori was taken for nefarious purposes". Hope that helps, and I'll finish catching up later.

[Turbododger]

Turbo ... I wasn't sure if I missed a post. Please refer to posts below from some time ago. Do we have any further information regarding the number of times MR changed the paint on his car after April 8th or for that matter, how often did he change the colour of his vehicle even prior to April 8th. This is very relevant IMO and I would think to his defense.

Painting the Car
:waitasec: Quote:
Originally Posted by wendell http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3798022#post3798022)
oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

Whoa -- this raises a red flag!! Every single time it gets done. Hmmm, and why would someone do this kind of painstaking work so often. Wendall -- approximately how many times would you say you have observed this being done -- I think you have brought up a very important fact.

MOO
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/post_thanks.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=3798112&securitytoken=1247961222-2a60e3d22afc5ee07726051a546372dac56cb241)


Thanks, Rose.

Yes, I was aware of that. On reviewing some things tonight, I realized that it is still being advertised on one of Doreen G.'s FB site that the missing seat (read: bottom bench?) has black spray paint on it. This is the only reference to the missing "seat" having black spray paint on it. When the paint was oversprayed there (presumably?) remains anyone's guess.

The possible connection to the black spray paint being one of the items purchased at the HD that evening, makes me wonder. Did he realize that his car could possibly be remembered by witnesses, do to the fact that it was only partially painted, thereby requiring the black spray paint to be purchased that evening to finish it? If so, this goes to mind set and planning.

It is also possible that if he did "finish" painting some parts of his car that night, that there would be residue and overspray on other things besides the seat. But if LE actually knows there is black spray paint on the missing seat, then how do they know? Maybe this has been offered as the reason for MTR getting rid of the seat, who knows?

[Turbododger]

About 30 local businesses have stepped forward to help Tori Stafford's father undertake a 3,400-kilometre bike ride to raise money for Child Find.

On Thursday, Ron Stelzl of Hear-Med and Brian Walsh of Pedal Power helped outfit a donated touring bike for Stafford.

Stelzl contributed the bike and clothing. Walsh offered to provide repair and maintenance equipment and custom pedals at low- to no-cost.

"I thought this would be a great idea when I heard (Stafford) didn't have a (suitable) bike," Stelzl said. "It was my first thought to get a bike that will make it the easiest for him. I wanted to help out and here was an opportunity to make a difference."

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/18/10176776-sun.html

[antiquegirl]

On reviewing some things tonight, I realized that it is still being advertised on one of Doreen G.'s FB site that the missing seat (read: bottom bench?) has black spray paint on it. This is the only reference to the missing "seat" having black spray paint on it. When the paint was oversprayed there (presumably?) remains anyone's guess.

(snip)

How would Doreen G. have any knowledge of what was on the missing seat? Presumably, only MTR would know what was on there and if he told LE, it hasn't been publicised. IMO, this is a rumour that started with this poorly phrased news article that makes it sound like the paint was on the seat instead of the car. It doesn't even say "spray paint". I have found no other references to the seat having paint on it.

"Police are asking the public to look for a grey coloured cloth rear car seat missing from the 2003 blue 4 door Honda sedan covered partially with black paint they believe was used during the abduction of missing Tori Stafford."

http://news.nabweekly.ca/2009/05/24/police-ask-pubic-to-assist-in-finding-missing-back-seat/

[Turbododger]

(snip)

How would Doreen G. have any knowledge of what was on the missing seat? Presumably, only MTR would know what was on there and if he told LE, it hasn't been publicised. IMO, this is a rumour that started with this poorly phrased news article that makes it sound like the paint was on the seat instead of the car. It doesn't even say "spray paint". I have found no other references to the seat having paint on it.

"Police are asking the public to look for a grey coloured cloth rear car seat missing from the 2003 blue 4 door Honda sedan covered partially with black paint they believe was used during the abduction of missing Tori Stafford."

http://news.nabweekly.ca/2009/05/24/police-ask-pubic-to-assist-in-finding-missing-back-seat/

How would anyone know what Doreen G. knows? This is not a rumour, but stated in a public appeal, that is being updated frequently on a FB site that is NOT interested in providing a breeding ground for rumours.

I have raised the question with LE themselves, though not the OPP which I am going to do tomorrow, as I think the public needs to know if they are still searching for the seat, if it is a full seat, and if indeed it does have black spray paint on it. I am not going to speculate how this may have been miscontrued, anything is possible. Maybe it is a misinterpretation of an article. Maybe it is a fact that LE does not want "out there". I don't know. But the black spray paint question is a valid one, IMO.

Oh, and I am sure MTR has been completely forthcoming of what is "on there". I think it's great that he dropped Hal for not being there to answer questions and protect him in jail. I bet he didn't agree with Hal advising him to plead guilty, either. It's good news he switched lawyers, IMO. I wonder how many other criminals have gone on to win their case, after they switched lawyers because they didn't take their expert advice? He's desperate, IMO. And I hope he is squirming like the snake he is.

[bleedingheart]

Thanks, Matou, such fanfare!:blushing:

I have come back after a somewhat restful vacation, to get back to the grind. :treadmill:

I just noticed a coincidence in the closeness of the locations of these places. TLM and MTR were thought to have met at a pizza place. I have no idea if it was this pizza place, but there aren't that many in Woodstock.

Also, not sure if it's related to the case, but this happened last week. I think it's possibly tied to the case:

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1647474

Good point about the video surveilance tapes. I do think LE wanted the tape of specific places MTR and TLM were known to frequent, that they didn't know prior to the arrests.
There are at least 10 Pizza Parlors in Woodstock.which include all the major name ones, ie Pizza Hut, New Orleans, ect

[bleedingheart]

How would anyone know what Doreen G. knows? This is not a rumour, but stated in a public appeal, that is being updated frequently on a FB site that is NOT interested in providing a breeding ground for rumours.

I have raised the question with LE themselves, though not the OPP which I am going to do tomorrow, as I think the public needs to know if they are still searching for the seat, if it is a full seat, and if indeed it does have black spray paint on it. I am not going to speculate how this may have been miscontrued, anything is possible. Maybe it is a misinterpretation of an article. Maybe it is a fact that LE does not want "out there". I don't know. But the black spray paint question is a valid one, IMO.

Oh, and I am sure MTR has been completely forthcoming of what is "on there". I think it's great that he dropped Hal for not being there to answer questions and protect him in jail. I bet he didn't agree with Hal advising him to plead guilty, either. It's good news he switched lawyers, IMO. I wonder how many other criminals have gone on to win their case, after they switched lawyers because they didn't take their expert advice? He's desperate, IMO. And I hope he is squirming like the snake he is.
anything I have read about the the case has never mentioned the "car seat" being sprayed with black paint, only parts of the car body was sprayed black and was poorly done according to people who have seen it.

[misses]

EYE think Michael was very right getting a new lawyer and could have even been recommended for him, I also believe he is where he is for protection reasons I wont say why I believe this but dont put all your eggs in the 1st basket, theres a reason this investigation is continuing. How often really do you see that? and in Canada..? Damn right theres a reason. Hope they find that reason.

[roseofsharon]

No, that's not correct. There is no such thing as a non-premeditated abduction. ALL abductions are "premeditated", whether the person abducted was picked for personal reasons or at random.



Sure, that's quite possible. But so far we have been given no information whatsoever to that effect.



They are one and the same. LE provides the evidence, and the prosecution argues the case. The prosecution cannot argue a motive for which LE has not given them evidence. When I refer to LE's "position", I simply mean that as of their last public statement, they have indicated that their evidence points to a "crime of opportunity" and that Tori was not targeted. Sure, that may have changed in the meantime; but if so, they haven't said so publicly.

Thank you for clarifying.

I am getting confused with lighter sentences in murder cases which are not premeditated, such as manslaughter or crimes of passion.

Could you please clarify the following ...

If all abuductions are premeditated, why does the prosecution distinguish/argue crime of opportunity versus targeting? How does this affect sentencing, should a guilty verdict come in?

This is not only a great site -- it is very educational!!!

[roseofsharon]

EYE think Michael was very right getting a new lawyer and could have even been recommended for him, I also believe he is where he is for protection reasons I wont say why I believe this but dont put all your eggs in the 1st basket, theres a reason this investigation is continuing. How often really do you see that? and in Canada..? Damn right theres a reason. Hope they find that reason.

I can follow your dialogue up to 1st basket. After this you've lost me ???

There's an investigation because we have a missing little girl, allegedly murdered by one or two individuals who happened to be boyfriend/girlfriend at the time of her disappearance, along with a very damming video of the girlfriend leading Tori away from her school the day she went missing, never to be seen again!! Not to mention the girlfriend accusing the boyfriend and the boyfriend denying having anything to do with anything.

How often do we see what in Canada?? Reason for what??

Do you mean MR changing lawyers? This is his legal right. I would think this happens a lot, however, not all cases are as high profile as this one, so you don't hear about the accused changing lawyers.

Do you mean hope they find the reason MR changed lawyers? If so, I would think this is privileged information only and would never come out.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand a lot of your post.:confused:

[ChaChaCha]

anything I have read about the the case has never mentioned the "car seat" being sprayed with black paint, only parts of the car body was sprayed black and was poorly done according to people who have seen it.

I believe it was Wendell who noted that the car had been painted many times. I do not believe that the black paint job was an effort to disguise the car. I think that MR was going for a several toned look, fading into black and didn't have the skills or tools to do a good job - but kept trying anyways. I am pretty sure that the photos of the car that were released showed that it was mostly black at the time, but those who had seen the car indicated that the photos were crappy and didn't show the other colors that were evident in person.

I don't know what to think about the back seat. LE must have confirmation that the seat was still in the car on April 8 or they wouldn't be looking so hard for it. They may want it as they could not recover enough (any?) DNA etc from the car as they received it and are hoping that the seat will be a source of evidence... especially given that TLM indicated that the assault took place "in the car". Additionally, if there was an assault that resulted in death, you would think that there would be enough evidence on the insides of the car that the seat would not necessarily be required...i.e. DNA, blood, etc....

If the car was seen fuelling up immediately prior to Tori's abduction perhaps it was in anticipation of a long drive - have we decided who was driving the car at the gas station? Was it TLM? Had she borrowed the car for a few hours, and then when she brought it back gone for a spin to Guelph with MR?

Is it possible that TLM was going to make her move on Tori that day, and purposely borrowed MR's car so that she had wheels?

http://www.thestar.com/article/638603

"The only thing I knew about Terri-Lynne was that she walked the dogs and Tori had talked to her about Precious (one of the dogs) as she is the same as their dog," said Carol.

She met Tara McDonald, Tori's mother, and James Goris, her boyfriend, who she said wanted to breed their dog, Cosmo, with her dogs.


This is all speculation of course... there may well be evidence contained on MR's blackberry that will refute all of this....

[PepperFritz]

If all abuductions are premeditated, why does the prosecution distinguish/argue crime of opportunity versus targeting? How does this affect sentencing, should a guilty verdict come in?


Whether a person abducted for the purpose of sexual assault was chosen at random or targeted as someone the abductor knew is completely irrelevant to the seriousness of the charges or the severity of the sentence. Therefore, the prosecutor in such a case concentrates on simply proving that the perpetrator carried out the abduction and sexual assault -- for whatever reasons. If there is evidence that the perpetrator targeted the victim, that information will be presented as simply adding to the overall case against him.

In Tori's case, the "target vs random" issue is only going to be relevant/valuable to MR's defense case. If his lawyer is able to provide evidence that TLM had a strong personal motivation to carry out the crime, he will have the opportunity to argue that TLM was really the driving force behind the crime (not MR), and therefore any testimony she gives identifying MR as the ringleader should not be trusted (i.e. she has a motive to LIE about MR's involvement). Its one and only "value" to the defence is its potential to introduce "reasonable doubt" into the minds of the jury and result in a not-guilty verdict for MR. However, if the jury finds MR guilty, it has no value whatsoever.

For the prosecution, the "personal motive" issue on the part of TLM will only serve to muddy the waters and weaken their case against MR, since they will no doubt be using TLM's testimony against him. Therefore, it is not in the prosecution's interest to argue the "personal motive" angle, they are better off arguing the "random abduction/crime of opportunity" theory of the crime.

[wendell]

okay, you guys are really doing the whole paint thing to death when we've gone over it in the past... so one last time.


when i saw the car on may 7th and then on the 9th.... it was NOT black. IT WAS recommended by myself and my husband THAT he paint it black as it looked TERRIBLE...
so any black paint was done well after a month from the date TORI was taken...
i believe that article regarding paint on the seat is incorrectly stated, i think there're saying a seat from a car with black spray paint, but it was poorly worded, the only paint on the inside of the car he ever did was he painted the dash white.

as to someone who earlier to tried to dis-credit my source for mike leaving hal....
i am the source.
it was not hal's idea to leave mike, he in-fact wanted to stay with mike, and tried to fight to stay with him.
mike's reasons for changing, are his own. and i think you're all correct in saying that is privileged info...

[Hello_Kitty]

I can follow your dialogue up to 1st basket. After this you've lost me ???



I'm lost too... but then, I never understand most of Misses posts. Maybe I'm just dUMb.

[roseofsharon]

Painting the Car
:waitasec: Quote:
Originally Posted by wendell [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/ima...s/viewpost.gif[/URL]
oh i know this first hand, i've seen it every single time it gets done, and everytime we ask him to park on another street because its embarrasing...

Whoa -- this raises a red flag!! Every single time it gets done. Hmmm, and why would someone do this kind of painstaking work so often. Wendall -- approximately how many times would you say you have observed this being done -- I think you have brought up a very important fact.

MOO
================================================== =====

Sorry to pull a NG, please tell us how many times (ball park figure) you have observed MR paint the car before or after April 8th? As his friend, wouldn't you agree this is a very important fact regarding his defense?

The painting of the car will no doubt come up more times at trial, than it ever has on this website. It is relevant!!!

[nonfictionrocks]

EYE think Michael was very right getting a new lawyer and could have even been recommended for him, I also believe he is where he is for protection reasons I wont say why I believe this but dont put all your eggs in the 1st basket, theres a reason this investigation is continuing. How often really do you see that? and in Canada..? Damn right theres a reason. Hope they find that reason.

If there was a possibility that MR was not involved in anyway and, in LE's haste to rectify the bad press and ill will in the community they were receiving, i.e. not immediately issuing an Amber Alert, they jumped the gun and arrested him on TLM's word only. Just releasing MR would not be an option at this point. Even if 100% innocent, he would not be safe and many would still be suspicious. TM's family has made it clear that they are willing to dole out their own punishment if justice cannot prevail. So where does it leave MR? JMO

Am a little close misses?

[Hello_Kitty]

If there was a possibility that MR was not involved in anyway and, in LE's haste to rectify the bad press and ill will in the community they were receiving, i.e. not immediately issuing an Amber Alert, they jumped the gun and arrested him on TLM's word only. Just releasing MR would not be an option at this point. Even if 100% innocent, he would not be safe and many would still be suspicious. TM's family has made it clear that they are willing to dole out their own punishment if justice cannot prevail. So where does it leave MR? JMO

Am a little close misses?

Do you think LE would continue with this charade if they thought MR wasn't guilty? If they had made a mistake, I'm pretty sure they would have said so by now. Instead of making the guy go through several court appearances, etc. Plus, if they wanted to protect him, they wouldn't leave him in jail, they have enough resources at their beck and call to change his id and squirrel him away somewhere until the trial is over.

[roseofsharon]

If there was a possibility that MR was not involved in anyway and, in LE's haste to rectify the bad press and ill will in the community they were receiving, i.e. not immediately issuing an Amber Alert, they jumped the gun and arrested him on TLM's word only. Just releasing MR would not be an option at this point. Even if 100% innocent, he would not be safe and many would still be suspicious. TM's family has made it clear that they are willing to dole out their own punishment if justice cannot prevail. So where does it leave MR? JMO

Am a little close misses?

When the abduction video was released, MR knew it was TLM, knew she wore a white puffy ski jacket -- if she borrowed his car, he had to consent to this. Why didn't he come forward and clear himself completely at the time the video was released. As stated in a previous post, he had nothing to lose. He should have told LE his association with TLM, but that he was innocent and had nothing to do with Tori's disappearance and should have assisted LE. He could have been wired by LE and Tori would be home and he would be home and we wouldn't be where we are right now -- if he were innocent. IMO

[ChaChaCha]

[QUOTE=wendell;3971237]okay, you guys are really doing the whole paint thing to death when we've gone over it in the past... so one last time.



Thank you Wendell for setting it out in no uncertain terms, and I think (hope) that we can agree that anything that goes on between MR and his lawyers is indeed privileged information. I personally think that the new firm will be much more able to provide a viable defence and is a good decision, but that is JMO.

[TripleA]

when i saw the car on may 7th and then on the 9th.... it was NOT black. IT WAS recommended by myself and my husband THAT he paint it black as it looked TERRIBLE...
so any black paint was done well after a month from the date TORI was taken...

But wasn't the car painted black in the gas station video that was released from the day of Tori's abduction?

[brighidin]

When the abduction video was released, MR knew it was TLM, knew she wore a white puffy ski jacket -- if she borrowed his car, he had to consent to this. Why didn't he come forward and clear himself completely at the time the video was released. As stated in a previous post, he had nothing to lose. He should have told LE his association with TLM, but that he was innocent and had nothing to do with Tori's disappearance and should have assisted LE. He could have been wired by LE and Tori would be home and he would be home and we wouldn't be where we are right now -- if he were innocent. IMO


Exactly!!

[Turbododger]

Does anyone have or remember the article that Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland's direct email address is in? I can't find it, I know I remember seeing it somewhere.

[misses]

No, no sorry if I was misunderstood. I didnt mean the lawyer thing, I think that was a very good move for Michael, what I meant was the investigation itself, continuing, and THATS a good thing too dont take that wrong either lol. I believe there's a whole lot more going on here thats all. And sorry about my post, I actually did originally have a different post but erased it, Ive only posted here a couple of times I have major trust issues displaying my thoughts and concerns on the internet and perhaps shouldnt have posted atall I know, but its actually the opposite to what youre thinking, it upset me to see hes still being hung here before everything is- resolved, and told in the trial(s). My personal opinion does not matter but my personal opinion is that he IS innocent..of killing Tori anyway I havnt the foggiest really what did go on like everyone else but I just have had this feeling much more is involved here, somehow. *JMO* mind you thats all.

[misses]

Remains were found just south of mt forest.. LE is not saying whether or not they're infact human remains or not, theyre not saying much atall. Watching Breakfast television, and Kevin Frankish did drop mention of Victoria's case and her pic (ugh) and how it is a location slightly north where the search is ongoing. 6th line and 89.. just so those of you who havnt heard, keep watch.

[Patience]

Remains have indeed been found near Mount Forest which is just north of one of the areas that were searched for Tori. I do want Tori to be found but this is just devastating. I have to stop crying before my children wake up, but then again they will be crying to when they hear. My daughter is Tori's age and I just can't bear this any longer. I am thinking of her family and dear friends at this time, including all the websleuthers here as you obviously care deeply about this sweet wee child.

[misses]

Here is a link from cp24's story, apparently the discovery was made yesterday afternoon. http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090720/090720_remains_found/20090720/?hub=CP24Home

[Patience]

Suspicious remains have been found in a rural area near Mount Forest, Ont. west of Orangeville on Sunday afternoon.
Police are at the scene off Concession 6, south of Highway 89 between Mount Forest and Teviotdale (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=mount+forest+ontario&sll=43.875623,-80.807877&sspn=0.292523,0.727158&ie=UTF8&ll=43.939439,-80.727196&spn=0.29221,0.727158&t=h&z=11). Police also say they have sealed off the area for their investigation.

*snip*

OPP Sgt. Dave Rektor says police can't confirm the remains are that of Stafford's, but investigators involved with her case are on the most recent development.

[Flowercb]

OPP say remains found in an area near Mount Forest, north of Fergus, might be those of Tori Stafford. It's near the area police have been searching for the body of the missing 8-year-old Woodstock girl. For the latest information, go to www.640toronto.com or tune into AM 640 Toronto Radio.

[siestalola]

Sue Scambati CP24 is on her way to the area and is expected to do a live report on CP24 within the next few minutes.

God Bless little Tori

[jaycee]

OMG. I'm dying here. It is the area they were searching...

The Star is reporting it also. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836

[Rottenone]

They just confirmed the remains ARE those of a young child.

Such a sad day, but at the same time Thankfully they found her..(hopefully)
Poor Tori, poor little darling.

I haven't posted here much lately. Been crazy busy with foster puppies. I just had to find the time to get on here today though.

Thoughts are with Tori and her family, as always. :(

[matou]

It's a child....hope gone now.

[Flowercb]

Does anyone know how much DNA information they can obtain from a body left out for three to four months. Hopefully they can obtain enough information to get the justice that Tori and her family deserves and that the public demands.

[Turbododger]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/20/opp-remains-body452.html

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090720/remains_found_090720/20090720/?hub=TorontoNewHome

The remains were discovered Sunday afternoon. Mount Forest is located west of Orangeville and just north of the Wellington and Guelph regions.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836

OPP Sgt. David Recktor told the Star that investigators recovered the "suspicious" remains yesterday afternoon near 6th line in Arthur Township, about 40 kilometres northwest of Guelph.

The remains were found on private property in a farm field.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gBMXccQvJ3hpxljKH5m2B2QFx6SQ

Rektor says the remains were in a "relatively new area of the search" for the eight-year-old girl, who went missing in Woodstock, Ont., on April 8.

[WhyaDuck?]

Remains found in Victoria Stafford search area

Last Updated: Monday, July 20, 2009 | 8:16 AM ET

Ontario Provincial Police investigating the killing of eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford have found remains in a rural area about two hours north of Woodstock, Ont.

"At this point, we're classifying them as suspicious remains," Sgt. David Rektor told CBC News. "And until such time as we have actual confirmation, we are not in a position to make that quantum leap that these are the remains of Victoria Stafford."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/20/opp-remains-body452.html

[MsRyber]

This has really shaken up our best friend, police officer R. Daly. His Dad and Mom just moved to Mount Forest last summer and his Dad passed away suddenly on Father's Day this year, at 55 years old. The remains are less than 1 kilometer from their front door.
They have taken their dog walking in the area in the last 2 weeks.

My husband was born/raised in Palmerston/Harriston, and knows the area she was found. He says there had to have been a tip, as it is all high grass right now.

[Turbododger]

Maybe now the family can have a bit of peace, knowing they can bring their baby girl home.

[Turbododger]

This has really shaken up our best friend, police officer R. Daly. His Dad and Mom just moved to Mount Forest last summer and his Dad passed away suddenly on Father's Day this year, at 55 years old. The remains are less than 1 kilometer from their front door.
They have taken their dog walking in the area in the last 2 weeks.

That's terrible.

Do you think you can click on my Map (2nd link below on my signature), and locate the exact spot, so I can update? I will delete it if it turns out to be some other poor soul.

Thank-you.

[WhyaDuck?]

I'm reserving judgement/relief/etc until the remains are confirmed hers. It can take weeks to confirm remains.

For some helpful info:

http://www.all-about-forensic-science.com/forensic-anthropology.html

[Turbododger]

I wonder who owns this private property?

[Alison]

When I read about the remains many emotions flooded through me. Disbelief because it will more than likely be final now, anger at those who did this to her and sadness. This will be hard on the family if it is her because now they are forced to face Tori is not going home. They have already had a memorial but now they will have a funeral. I can not imagine going through the pain over and over again, perhaps after this they may begin to heal.
God Bless Tori and Family
:praying:

Edit: There has been no confirmation as of yet if the body found is Tori, I appologize if I have confused anyone.

[elepher50]

Please let it be Tori so this little baby can be properly put to rest. Prayers and thoughts are with family at this time.

[matou]

Don't have a link for this. Kevin Frankish from Breakfast Television mentioned that OPP found the remains on a farmer's field off of sideroad 2 east of route 6.

[Alison]

I'm reserving judgement/relief/etc until the remains are confirmed hers. It can take weeks to confirm remains.

For some helpful info:

http://www.all-about-forensic-science.com/forensic-anthropology.html

I think because they already have DNA to compare with, and dental records of Tori I imagine it will be confirmed within the next 24 hours. I believe the notoriety of this case will force a rushed confirmation.

[Kamille]

While this is the news we've been hoping for, the possible finality of it all is difficult to deal with. Such a sad day. It will be even more jarring if and when they confirm that it is her.

LE obviously believed that she was most likely originally placed on a farm property somewhere off of Hwy 6 north of Guelph. I suppose that was the one piece of information that TLM gave them that they continued to persue. It was just a little further north than they initially believed it seems.

[WhyaDuck?]

I think because they already have DNA to compare with, and dental records of Tori I imagine it will be confirmed within the next 24 hours. I believe the notoriety of this case will force a rushed confirmation.

Yes, that's true. However, in such high-profile cases, they will also take more care. I just wanted to throw in the caution that people shouldn't be too relieved just yet, as it would be a huge drop for them to discover it wasn't her.

In my gut, I do reckon it's her - but we can't be sure until the word comes from the ME.

[Kamille]

I wonder who owns this private property?

I wonder about that too Turbododger. You'd have thought that everyone in that area would have thoroughly searched their properties months ago. Maybe they figured they were too far north?

[Alison]

While this is the news we've been hoping for, the possible finality of it all is difficult to deal with. Such a sad day. It will be even more jarring if and when they confirm that it is her.

LE obviously believed that she was most likely originally placed on a farm property somewhere off of Hwy 6 north of Guelph. I suppose that was the one piece of information that TLM gave them that they continued to persue. It was just a little further north than they initially believed it seems.

It makes me wonder if they had some other type of information that made them continue searhing the area other than what TLM told them.

[Kamille]

It makes me wonder if they had some other type of information that made them continue searhing the area other than what TLM told them.


I suppose it's possible that they had phone "pings" and they were going on the area covered by certain phone towers?

[WhyaDuck?]

The body will be transferred to the provincial Centre of Forensic Sciences for identification.

Here is info on the Centre:

http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/centre_forensic/about/intro/intro.html

[Jenny44]

That's terrible.

Do you think you can click on my Map (2nd link below on my signature), and locate the exact spot, so I can update? I will delete it if it turns out to be some other poor soul.

Thank-you.

Hey Turbo...Mount Forest area, you have that listed on your map as the "attempted abductions"

Wow!

[christine2448]

When I read about the remains many emotions flooded through me. Disbelief because it will more than likely be final now, anger at those who did this to her and sadness. This will be hard on the family if it is her because now they are forced to face Tori is not going home. They have already had a memorial but now they will have a funeral. I can not imagine going through the pain over and over again, perhaps after this they may begin to heal.
God Bless Tori and Family
:praying:

Maybe now the family can have a bit of peace, knowing they can bring their baby girl home.

I don't know where my tears are coming from--relief or pain?? I'm glad the search is over but didn't anticipate the emotion that goes along with the finality of this discovery.

Poor little Tori.


She hasn't been id'd yet.

Please be careful about posting such things...it can be very upsetting to posters and/or relatives reading if they think it is confirmed. Posters just waking up could read one of these posts and be wrongly informed. TIA.

[roseofsharon]

But wasn't the car painted black in the gas station video that was released from the day of Tori's abduction?

I'm not sure regarding the gas station, but according to what I read on other sites, HD captured MR car in parking lot with the black paint and apparently, there were eye witnesses who saw this car at HD and it stood out due to the black paint!!

Not saying this is accurate -- only making reference to what has been reported on other sites.

We know there have been some details reported wrong in the past.

[greatwhitenorth]

such a sad story, although it has been out of the media as of late I know sleuthers had Tori on thier mind. My heart stopped this morning when I heard the news. God Bless....

[MsRyber]

Well they didn't search this area before because it is not that close to Guelph and the area where they believed she was.
Also, the grass in the ditches here grew very quickly in May and was threshed sometime at the end of June, but not low enough to the ground where it would have been visible.
From the road, you wouldn't see anything. If you come up Sally sideroad and make a right onto Sideroad 2, it is all wild grass along the ditches, with a few farms.
Also, if you take Main St through Mount Forest, there is heavy forest and some high rock formations (like escarpment type banks). Definitely not searcher friendly, imo.

[Kamille]

CP 24 is reporting that an officer made the discovery after driving around looking for "specific landmarks".

[Patience]

Julian Fantino, OPP Commissioner on TV now. He is saying forensics will identify these remains. Dedicated Police work has brought out this new development. This has been an emotional rollar coaster ride. Huge. The police are wearing their hearts on their sleeves. They feel deeply for the family of Tori Stafford whatever this outcome. They are doing the best that they can.

[Jenny44]

Julian Fantino, OPP Commissioner on TV now. He is saying forensics will identify these remains. Dedicated Police work has brought out this new development. This has been an emotional rollar coaster ride. Huge. The police are wearing their hearts on their sleeves. They feel deeply for the family of Tori Stafford whatever this outcome. They are doing the best that they can.

what station????

[matou]

Updated article from the Toronto Star. Has area circled on map. A bit confusing: there is highway 6 and concession road 6 running North-South in the same area.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836

[Recovering-Lurker]

I know no confirmation yet, but it probably is Tori imo. Such a sad, bittersweet day if it's her. She does need to come home and be buried, but, of course, it's never easy on such a day when a child's remains are found. Prayers to her family.

[Patience]

what station????

CP 24 - I get it on 503 - Ann Romer reporting.

Sue Scambati is on her way to the scene apparently and will be reporting from the area.

[Violet_Foxglove]

CP24 are reporting that they have confirmed it is the body of a young child.

So sad.

[jaycee]

I feel this has to be Tori. This must be a terrible day for her family and especially her brother Daryn. Being told she is dead without her being found gives room for denial and even hope, but this takes that away.

[matou]

Sue Scambati just reported live on CP24 that the remains were found in a small wooded area to the left of the end of a dirt road on a farmer's private property. Not in print yet.

[JenQ]

I pray that if this is dear little Tori that the family can finally properly mourn their daughters passing...I am really at a loss for words,,,I had so many things to say...but now my mind is blank. This is all so sad....so emotional....
To all of you here at websleuths....you are all so wonderful

[roseofsharon]

Thank you LE for never giving up!!! Great work!!!

OMG -- just saw the road leading to the site on the news. It is a miracle the remains were found.

[WhyaDuck?]

Thank you LE for never giving up!!! Great work!!!

They'll likely still be at it for a while yet, as well. They'll want to excavate the find area for evidence now. I hope the rain stays off for them today.

[crazyladi]

I too feel that this is her.. Until I found out I still will believe it.... It just seems to fit what happened and what they have said they found. I am hoping that if it is her, they can find some sort of evidence to go with what they already have to close this case. This is big!! I knew they wouldnt stop until they found her.... (if it is her)

[Turbododger]

On CP24 they stated that the police officer who located the remains was driving and looking for landmarks that TLM had disclosed earlier, and found the remains that they believe to be of Tori. A press conference at around 12 or 1 pm may occur.

The remains were located only 15 mins further then where they were originally searching with TLM.

[Jenny44]

I feel strongly that it is Tori!

Betcha MR is squirming today!

[Kamille]

Sue Scambati reporting that she is at 6th and 2nd Concession? about a kilometre away from where remains were found just off of 2nd Concession. Very rural, Mennonite country...she has seen some horse and buggies. The remains have not yet been moved. LE is taking members of the media in small groups closer to the site.

[Violet_Foxglove]

I wish we could have our parking lot forum back! Does anyone know who we would need to make a request to?

[elepher50]

On CP24 they stated that the police officer who located the remains was driving and looking for landmarks that TLM had disclosed earlier, and found the remains that they believe to be of Tori. A press conference at around 12 or 1 pm may occur.

The remains were located only 15 mins further then where they were originally searching with TLM.

If there is a Presser ... can you post the link Turbo?

[WhyaDuck?]

Sue Scambati reporting that she is at 6th and 2nd Concession? about a kilometre away from where remains were found just off of 2nd Concession. Very rural, Mennonite country...she has seen some horse and buggies. The remains have not yet been moved. LE is taking members of the media in small groups closer to the site.

Good info. Given the root growth, it is a really dicey process to remove skeletal remains from such an area, especially those of a child. They've likely tarped it, and have a sifting crew in. A portion of this kind of work is done with small blowers and brushes - very delicate stuff.

I had heard it reported the body was already sent to the Centre, so I'm glad to hear they are taking their time. I have edited my previous post to "will be."

[roseofsharon]

I pray they will be able to establish cause of death and that they will be able to obtain DNA evidence.