The Brother And The Bike Fight

[SeriouslySearching]

This is the place to put all the known information (reminding everyone he is a minor in this case) about the brother and information about the fight. The information is conflicting about where the fight took place, who witnessed the fight, and what time J arrived home after the fight. We can sort it out here! (Hopefully!)

[Busylady]

Baum said her children began squabbling over the use of Josh's bike on the way there and were stopped by a family friend who sent Josh home to end the argument. Lindsey continued on to her friend's house. When Lindsey's friend found out she couldn't stay the night, Lindsey headed for home around 9:30 p.m.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7966924&page=1

[SeriouslySearching]

Lindsey's mother, Melissa Baum, fears that her daughter, who was set to enter the sixth grade this fall, was abducted.

Her mother says Lindsey argued with her brother on her way to the friend's house, and after talking with the playmate a bit, she started for home as darkness fell.

Article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07...y5127770.shtml

[STEADFAST]

Here, I bet, is where the idea got started that the person who broke up the squabble is the same person who saw Lindsey after she left her friend's house:
GRACE: Are they absolutely certainly -- back out to Steve Friederich with "The Daily World" joining us from Aberdeen. Are they absolutely certain about the date and the time the neighbor that spotted her, about the date and the time she spotted the little girl?

FRIEDERICH: You know, I asked about that. And the sheriff seems to say yes. I mean, the neighbor knew the child and the neighbor knew the brother. That the neighbor had actually stopped a fight between the two of them, like, shortly beforehand. And the neighbor was on the way to work. She`s a public employee, works for a nearby county.

Nancy Grace transcript http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/01/ng.01.htmlNow, I happen to think Friederich might be wrong about them being the same person. Wrong facts get thrown around a lot on Nancy Grace's show. On the other hand, this local reporter is saying that the sheriff gave him this info.

[STEADFAST]

A different version of events from Kara:
Kampen said she has replayed that Friday evening in her head over and over. So has her daughter, [MK], 10, who spent the day swimming with Lindsey. They walked together with JB, 13, to the Kampen house. But halfway there, MK said they teased JB, getting under his skin enough so he turned around and couldn’t walk back with Lindsey. That’s something he now regrets deeply, Kampen said.http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2009/07/03/local_news/doc4a4e415cdb51d302573546.txt

(Minors' names initialized by me.)

[SeriouslySearching]

The family’s been trying hard to make Josh stay put. At one point, the 12-year-old went around the neighborhood on his bike calling out Lindsey’s name. He feels guilty because shortly before she disappeared, the two had a sibling argument over a bike.

Sometimes she could make a mountain out of a mole hill, the family says, but they don’t think any of that played into a runaway scenario.

Article:
http://www.thedailyworld.com/article...8989072462.txt

[STEADFAST]

The :waitasec: version:

Lindsey left her cell phone at home before leaving to play with friends Friday, said Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott. Lindsey’s older brother had left the Maple Street residence before his sister after the two had a dispute over the bike Lindsey had borrowed from him that day – a common occurrence between frequently squabbling siblings, Scott added.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/northwest/story/795384.html

[1curious1]

From what I have read and what i have seen in these discussions, I continously wonder if JB has ever been asked or ever came forward himself to say who the person was that sent him home after the arguement over the bike. Did I miss something about that information? Thanks

[Selchie]

I almost hate to ask this question... but do we know EXACTLY where JB was when Lindsey disappeared? Was he at home with his Mom or with a friend or was he still outdoors?

[Cicada]

Baum said her children began squabbling over the use of Josh's bike on the way there and were stopped by a family friend who sent Josh home to end the argument. Lindsey continued on to her friend's house. When Lindsey's friend found out she couldn't stay the night, Lindsey headed for home around 9:30 p.m.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7966924&page=1

I am a little puzzled by the mother's remarks. She stated that Lindsey left with her brother to go to her friend's house hoping to get permission to stay the night; a family friend broke up a squabble between the siblings, and sent the boy home (before knowing if permission for Lindsey to stay was given); yet, when Lindsey never came home by 10pm, she was worried. How did she know Lindsey wasn't going to stay the night? I wonder if she had contacted the other child's mother, and found out she had not allowed Lindsey to stay. :waitasec:

[STEADFAST]

I am a little puzzled by the mother's remarks. She stated that Lindsey left with her brother to go to her friend's house hoping to get permission to stay the night; a family friend broke up a squabble between the siblings, and sent the boy home (before knowing if permission for Lindsey to stay was given); yet, when Lindsey never came home by 10pm, she was worried. How did she know Lindsey wasn't going to stay the night? I wonder if she had contacted the other child's mother, and found out she had not allowed Lindsey to stay. :waitasec:

Actually, Lindsey and her friend were supposedly going to the friend's house to find out if the friend could spend the night at Lindsey's house.

It just occurred to me that the mom's report of what happened during the bike squabble has to be hearsay since she wasn't with them. I wonder who told her about it and when.

[concentric]

There are so many questions left unanswered by the two mothers. Why don't the reporters dig deeper to find out "who told who" what happened?

[Cicada]

Actually, Lindsey and her friend were supposedly going to the friend's house to find out if the friend could spend the night at Lindsey's house.

It just occurred to me that the mom's report of what happened during the bike squabble has to be hearsay since she wasn't with them. I wonder who told her about it and when.

Thank you so much. I read that wrong. I wonder who told her too. I doubt it was the family friend. Weren't they on their way to work? Maybe JB told her when he returned home.

[Selchie]

I am wondering if he (JB) went home when the squabble was stopped... and if he did... did he go home and stay there or did he go home and leave again before LB was suppose to get there? Sorry if this was already discussed and I missed it.

So many questions.......

[SeriouslySearching]

I am wondering if he (JB) went home when the squabble was stopped... and if he did... did he go home and stay there or did he go home and leave again before LB was suppose to get there? Sorry if this was already discussed and I missed it.

So many questions.......Welcome to WS, Selchie~ I don't think it has been verified what actually took place with the brother by anyone yet after the supposed fight. Those are questions I would like answers to myself. My first thought was the brother did something to her.

[Normcar21]

I am just trying to share some thoughts from others and inquire about further information relative to JB.

Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong in this post. I will immediately delete. I would just like some clarification in a number of points.

A review of a few statements made here:

STEADFAST
(snip) Actually, Lindsey and her friend were supposedly going to the

friend's house to find out if the friend could spend the night at

Lindsey's house.

It just occurred to me that the mom's report of what happened during the

bike squabble has to be hearsay since she wasn't with them. I wonder who

told her about it and when.

CICADA

(snip) Thank you so much. I read that wrong. I wonder who told her too.

I doubt it was the family friend. Weren't they on their way to work?

Maybe JB told her when he returned home.

SERIOUSLYSEARCHING

(snip) I don't think it has been verified what

actually took place with the brother by anyone yet after the supposed

fight. Those are questions I would like answers to myself. My first

thought was the brother did something to her.



MY QUESTIONS

Can anyone confirm that ML (myspace "Brighteyes") claimed that a number of times LB came to her home to call 911 because JB had done some things to her?

Her myspace: http://www.myspace.com/batchessqua and she lists her residence as "hick town, Washington. A USSEARCH shows her to be a valid resident of McCleary.



On her Myspace she has a few tatoos but beyond that she seems to be pretty normal according to her description. She wants to be a nurse, has family and/or friends in the armed forces, young kids, doesn't drink too much, and apparently doesn't do drugs, from her description (of course it's "her" description). Photos do seem to verify this.
Does anyone have any information about her mate (as shown on MySpace?)

Does anyone have any information related to the reported time when JB wandered off on his bike looking for LB? How long was he gone? Can anyone in town confirm where he actually looked? Was it anywhere near the "fork" or a woodland area? Was anyone with him when he did his searching? Was he dirty when he came home?

I am simply trying to put a few things together. Is it not accurate that family members are at a higher percentage of being responsible for sexual crimes against children? Sibling against sibling included.

Has JB been completely cleared? Can a lie detector test work on a 12 year old?

Thanks

[JenniferO]

I am just trying to share some thoughts from others and inquire about further information relative to JB.


Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong in this post. I will immediately delete. I would just like some clarification in a number of points.

<Snipped to save space>


MY QUESTIONS

Can anyone confirm that ML (myspace "*removed in case we aren't supposed to post it*") claimed that a number of times LB came to her home to call 911 because JB had done some things to her?


I have not read any of that info put out to the public by anyone other than KK and ML on various website as comments. I don't believe the LEs have released this info to the public. No one knows for a fact that any reports were made (I don't think they are public record, but if they are she would have filed in Grays Harbor County)


Her myspace:*removed in case we aren't supposed to post it*) and she lists her residence as "hick town, Washington. A USSEARCH shows her to be a valid resident of McCleary.


Rumor has it she moved. No one can verify this.



On her Myspace she has a few tatoos but beyond that she seems to be pretty normal according to her description. She wants to be a nurse, has family and/or friends in the armed forces, young kids, doesn't drink too much, and apparently doesn't do drugs, from her description (of course it's "her" description). Photos do seem to verify this.
Does anyone have any information about her mate (as shown on MySpace?)


Has had a few driving infraction tickets, works at a casino in the kitchen (cook? dishwasher? who knows)
Other than that nothing else bizarre stands out. YMMV


Does anyone have any information related to the reported time when JB wandered off on his bike looking for LB? How long was he gone? Can anyone in town confirm where he actually looked? Was it anywhere near the "fork" or a woodland area? Was anyone with him when he did his searching? Was he dirty when he came home?

What is this with a "fork"? The only "fork" in the area is a small town named Forks that is a few hours north on the coast. Other than that I don't know anything about JB and a search.

I am simply trying to put a few things together. Is it not accurate that family members are at a higher percentage of being responsible for sexual crimes against children? Sibling against sibling included.

Has JB been completely cleared? Can a lie detector test work on a 12 year old?

I do not know if they did a lie detector test on JB nor do I know if it would be something they would consider. It was my understanding that he was at home with his mother. I guess the LEs have no reason to not believe that.

[Normcar21]

Thanks Jennifer, that is helpful. I refer to the "fork" in the creek where the kids used to swim, just north of the door mill.

I have heard that rumor that she, ML, moved as well. It would be nice to find out where she is and for LE or some reporter to interview her publically, so she can either be dismissed as a quack or registered as a valid witness to a trouble between JB and his sister.

If 343 1st street was the last location of ML, then it is extremely close to LB's home, and a quick stroll to use a phone if necessary, no more than one block away, about 300 feet.

ML, according to her myspace also has young kids who I'm sure would have been attractive to LB, an outgoing young girl. The home being so close, I have little trouble seeing LB visiting them often, and both being outgoing, along with the kids, a good formula for friendship and trust

[JenniferO]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.

[Normcar21]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.

Thanks Jenn, I had to log in again to thank you for that info before I turn in, that's helpful, especially the idea that they are a "nice quiet people"

Have an excellent sunday

[scandi]

Thanks Jennifer for your post. It's too bad that everything we have learned about her is heresay, especially since she interjected herself into the case with her public comments.

Sitting here thinking about that, are police records public? I wish someone could get ahold of dispatch calls for the MPD. I know in Portugal I found a copy of LE's dispatching the night Madeleine went missing. Just a thought as it would be the type of info that would be verified and useful in sleuthing the case. xox

[coastal]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.
I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link. :o

[SeriouslySearching]

Any information on the brother from articles and videos can be posted here. I would like to learn as much about him as possible.

In my opinion, he hasn't been "cleared" in this. The police may not "suspect" him, but it doesn't mean he has been cleared when only his mother can vouch for his whereabouts during the time she went missing, the time he arrived home without Lindsey, and if he went out again later.

We have heard speculation that he was a troubled kid and we do know they had physical altercations. Could he have been so angry that he was getting back at his sister on her way home? Could he have known or have run into some older guys and asked them to take care of his problem? We just don't have any answers.

[coastal]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.
I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link. :o

ETA:
http://www.cityofmccleary.com/vertical/Sites/{6900A7D9-59CE-4612-823A-FA3E5F25F431}/uploads/{214968EF-BDC3-44B0-9F8F-2CE99BAFC056}.PDF

WILDCAT CREEK AQUIFER:
HYDROLOGY, REGULATORY ALTERNATIVE, AND RECOMMENDATIONS - FINAL REPORT

June 13, 2008

snip>>>

Part 3 – Recommendations ……………………………………………p. 21
Joint County – City Recommendations

A
1....
(a,b,c,d)
e. Actions:
(i,ii)...
iii. Measure streamflow below the confluence of the three branches of Wildcat Creek and measure water levels in several wells to learn more about groundwater movement and quantity...

(report continues...)

>>>snip

I suppose it doesn't matter, except to my curiousity, but since our favorite locals know of and refer to "two forks of the Wildcat Creek", these being the "East Fork" and the "West Fork", and the City/County Water/Planning experts refer to "the three branches of Wildcat Creek", does anyone happen to know the difference (hydrologically speaking) between forks and branches?

What matters is that McClearies really use neither of these to identify 'where in Wildcat Creek'. Yes?

:o Sorry. It's been a long day.

[JenniferO]

I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link. :o

ETA:
http://www.cityofmccleary.com/vertical/Sites/{6900A7D9-59CE-4612-823A-FA3E5F25F431}/uploads/{214968EF-BDC3-44B0-9F8F-2CE99BAFC056}.PDF

WILDCAT CREEK AQUIFER:
HYDROLOGY, REGULATORY ALTERNATIVE, AND RECOMMENDATIONS - FINAL REPORT

June 13, 2008

snip>>>

Part 3 – Recommendations ……………………………………………p. 21
Joint County – City Recommendations

A
1....
(a,b,c,d)
e. Actions:
(i,ii)...
iii. Measure streamflow below the confluence of the three branches of Wildcat Creek and measure water levels in several wells to learn more about groundwater movement and quantity...

(report continues...)

>>>snip

I suppose it doesn't matter, except to my curiousity, but since our favorite locals know of and refer to "two forks of the Wildcat Creek", these being the "East Fork" and the "West Fork", and the City/County Water/Planning experts refer to "the three branches of Wildcat Creek", does anyone happen to know the difference (hydrologically speaking) between forks and branches?

What matters is that McClearies really use neither of these to identify 'where in Wildcat Creek'. Yes?

:o Sorry. It's been a long day.

There is the Wildcat Creek in Elma and then it branches out a few miles outside of McCleary (into the West fork and the East fork). The West fork of Wildcat Creek runs north, the East fork of the Wildcat Creek runs east through McCleary.
Different "branches" of the same creek are called "forks" in some areas.

[coastal]

Thank you, JenniferO! Thank you, thank you, thank you! That reference got stuck itself in my head and would not go away, but now I can move it along to the 'intresting but not very' file I keep i there.

Where else do kids swim, besides private pools and 'the creek behind the door plant'? Again, thank you very much!

[JenniferO]

Coastal, I believe that is everything that is available for the kids in McCleary unless their parents take them somewhere else.

[coastal]

...Can anyone confirm that ML (myspace "Brighteyes") claimed that a number of times LB came to her home to call 911 because JB had done some things to her?

Good morning, Normcar21. I'll take this one!
I brought that comment, which I copied from the comments section of a King5.com article about Lindsey, here to WS. It was signed "MLachester". It sounded to me like he/she had what might be important information about Lindsey, and I didn't want it to disappear into cyberspace. This was before the mods gave Lindsey her own forum, and also before the 'don't discuss KK or her comments at another site' decision was made clear to me. Then, the mods advised that since we can not verify the ID of people who post comments in public forums (such as King.5's viewer comments), we should not treat such comments as fact, and should not bring them to WS for discussion. (Mods, please correct me if this is incorrect!)

In other words, we cannot confirm a call from LB to 911, made from the home of Mlachester, at all. Local McClearies have identified a real live M.LaC, complete with husband and child near LB's age, in McCleary.

Any other information resulting from the initial comment I copied here from King5.com is, therefore, considered "fruit" from that "poisioned tree", and we can't use it in our discussions.

Everything I have heard about (and from) Mlachester comes, then, from unconfirmed sources, except for what JenniferO has posted above (and which she herself qualified as heresay).

So, there is no 'there', there. At least, not here!
I'm sorry, Normcar21. I think it is interesting, too.

[scandi]

Hi, Last night after crawling into bed I had a thought about the bike and was going to get up and post it on this thread so I wouldn't forget it in the morning. Guess what? LOL

I think it was I read the police found the bike behind the city bldgs 2 days after she went missing. Does anyone have a link for that?

Also, JB was seen riding his bike not long after Lindsey went missing, and I'm wondering where that came from? The point is his bike evidently was fixed so it was rideable again.

What either of these things really mean to the case I don't know. Maybe nothing, but just clearing up odds and ends about the bike. xox

[Normcar21]

I have compiled snippits of newly posted information in thread #7 related to JB and the bike as well as anything that seemed to relate so it would be easier for me personally to have a summative overview of what has been discussed over the past few days (topic number is posted as well for a quick reference). I am not making any specific claims relative to what this information may or may not be pointing to. My goal was simply to have a handy point of reference for discussion. I have bracketed and initialed specific "name" references. I have also included some of my own questions and considerations relative to various post numbers. I believe like many of you have expressed in threads along the way that every angle needs to be combed through, no matter what the implications may be. Leaving improbable scenarious completely alone and hidden doesn't really help anything. Case in point, who would have DREAMED that little Sandra Cantu's [accused] murderer would be a sunday school teacher, a female, and a neighbor who had her own kids who actually played with Sandra. That case alone explains the veracity and "need" to check out all possibilities, imo.

My sincere and profound amazement at what you people have accomplished over the past 48 hours. WOW!



SNIPPITS, all from thread #7, posted over the last few days:

CYBERSWEPT (#381)
No SS. Shel did not want to talk about him. I pressed her a little, but she seemed to shy away when I asked her about the brother much. The
threat was an arson threat against a neighbor. She said they caught him there with matches in hand and confirmed that he has been in juvenile
detention. One other thing she mentioned is that [MB] still lets him ride his bike around town, just like he did before.


SS (#383)
How strange she would let him take off on his bike after his sister went missing! It is kind of disturbing to me. I wonder if his mother is afraid to tell him he can't do things or if he simply does what he wants to do and is allowed? He does sound like a troubled boy. Arson is nothing to take lightly. I do hope LE was very intense with him when he was questioned since it appears he probably knows how to "work the system" by now.

DISTRACTED (#406)
Evidently, the bike was not fully operational. Lindsey was pushing it around because it was broken. That's what the fight was about that night. She was tired of pushing it and wanted her brother to take over or take it home and they began arguing about it so she just left it behind the Shell station and planned to pick it up on the way back home.

CYBERSWEPT (401)
Shel told me that what she heard was the sweatshirt jacket was found out in the open near where the flipflop was found. The flipflop was found in some brush behind the shell station, which led them to believe she tried to run, then hide in the brush, leaving the flipflop behind. She said they only found one though. This stuff was found early on. Either that night or the next morning.

SCANDI (436)
Now I'm thinking that I read that the witness who saw Lindsey lived on 6th and Simpson. That is UNCONFIRMED. Maybe she took a left on 6th instead of a right and walked down Simpson, across 3rd and back behind the station to get the bike she had maybe parked by the bridge. That would be a good hiding place to leave it and not worry about someone stealing it. Just sayin'

YOSANDE (455)
The park and ride is on the same street she lives on, and if her shirt, and shoe were found almost within eyeshot of her home, if I were 10 or 11, the only reason I wouldn't be screaming as I was running, if someone was chasing me, and/or grabbing me, is if home was not a refuge, therefore, her brother, mother, or anyone else living in the home, would be suspect to me especially if her mother didn't work evenings and she had every reason to believe her mom was home. Imo, she was too close to home to decide to hide instead of run if her shirt and shoe was found in that area.

JENNIFERO (460)
I don't think Lindsey made it to the park, park and ride or even on her street. If someone was chasing her behind the Shell.. why would she go towards the park instead of her house? If she was in the park why would she run in the opposite direction towards the Shell instead of her house?

SS (462)
As far as the bike goes...it is a curious story. I can see perhaps the chain breaking, but not pushing it all over town like that either. Since the fight was supposed to have happened behind the station...it was so close to the house and she was still pushing it? Why didn't she just leave it at home when she was there to shower and change? Why take the bike and push it to the station? Or if it was left it at the station on her way to KK's house, why did the brother just leave it? Her mother said the brother went back out that night searching...did she mention if he was walking or on his bike? There are a lot of questions concerning the brother and the bike fight. I don't trust the brother. Is it just me being suspicious or did anyone else find his little one line speech followed up with "Amen" at the vigil a bit odd?

AMANDAREAKONWITH (467)
Where would a 13 yr old hide a body so well that over 3 weeks later, still no sign? I don't think the brother is even near the radar, let alone on it.

NOTMYKIDS (469)
Where would a normal 13 year old hide a body? Who knows...one would assume they wouldn't. Where would a 13 year old who has been in juvie and supposedly shows the arson part of the homicidal triad hide a body? Lord only knows.

SS(471)
He was my first thought, too. The more I learn about him...the more I have to wonder if my first instincts weren't correct. As far as where he would hide a body? Being in Juvy, a boy can make some very undesirable friendships. Maybe he wasn't alone when she returned for the walk home. He knew if she left the bike behind the Shell station that she would return to pick it up after their huge fight. He also knew basically what time she would be coming home and she may be alone. He could have waited with friends and ambushed her easily.


QUESTIONS AND CONSIDERATIONS:

SS (#383) - it certainly seems that JB has a great degree of independence, for whatever reasons.

DISTRACTED (#406) - could it be that the tires simply needed air? That would require a simple fix. Is there a tire pump "behind" the Shell station? That would possibly be reason for activity behind the Shell station. Could the fight have been who gets to ride the bike now that the tire was pumped up, resulting in nobody taking the bike at that time out of frustration and anger. In any event, with that sort of scenario JB would be almost assured that LB would be returning to pick up the "fixed" bike.

CYBERSWEPT (401) - could fighting over this "repaired" bike tire be something that would cause 2 siblings extremely angry with one another to leave a scenario behind like that? Again, it would be nice to know if a tire pump exists behind this service station as I know that many service stations in my area have the air pumps around back.

SCANDI (436) - is it credible that she walked directly down Maple, crossed it to the service station, then went around back of the station to see if the bike was still where the two siblings left it (by the looks of camera positions she would not have been picked up by crossing maple and going directly behind the south end of the station to the back, perhaps near the treed area...location of a tire pump?)


YOSANDE (455) - you make an incredibly interesting statement here, imo: "...the only reason I wouldn't be screaming as I was running, if someone was chasing me, and/or grabbing me, is if home was not a refuge..."

JENNIFERO (460) - interesting statement as well: "...why would she go towards the park instead of her house? If she was in the park why would she run in the opposite direction..." (in light especially of YOSANDE'S statement above)

SS (462) - I agree, do you think that a possible flat tire and quick tire pump fix might lend some light? As well, could you share with me this little one line speech followed up with "Amen" at the vigil, thanks.

NOTMYKIDS (469) - I can appreciate your response to post #467 simply because "if" this information is accurate then JB seems to be tried and tested in the area of deception and negative activity. I also agree with SS's comments related to the same potential activity.


SS, thanks for creating this thread and if you see anything wrong with either content or format above please let me know what you would like changed or tell me to delete. This goes for all MODS as well.

[SeriouslySearching]

Copied from the General Discussion Thread:

Hey I got some additional info from KK on the bike situation involving the brother that some of you have been asking about.

The bike that the kids were fighting over was actually not ride-able. It did not have a chain on it so Lindsey had actually been pushing herself along on the bike and then decided she no longer wanted to so she dropped it at the Shell station off to the side of the gas pumps closest to the police station. The argument actually stemmed over who was going to take it home her or Josh. Needless to say neither wanted to - hence the fight.

So who won?

It was my understanding that the bike was still at the Shell station 2 or 3 days after Lindsey went missing.

I wonder though if it would have altered her route enough to go around the north side of the Shell Station vs the south side which would have been her normal path? I also wonder if the bike was in line of sight of the camera there? If it was and she was not in the video from the pump camera, at least we could eliminate the bike as being an object of deviation from her normal walk home.

And see...to me this makes absolutely no sense. Her brother is an avid bike rider according to his mother. Why would he leave his bike by the Shell station so he cannot ride it to "go look for Lindsey"? It is obviously fixed now so I am curious to know when he really got back and who fixed it. If the chain was simply falling off or if it broke entirely is another question.

Why would Lindsey push a broken bike around town? Why not drop it immediately where it broke or take it home since it was only half a block? When and why did she leave it at the station?

So you are saying she was at KK's house earlier that day? The bike never made it to KK's for the last trip as the fight happened behind the Shell station where it evidently was left by both of them.

I've always assumed, and merely my assumption, that Lindsey had taken the bike and it broke and the brother was upset with her about it. I figure it was broken enough that once Lindsey went missing, the brother didn't care since he knew it needed repairs in order to ride it to look for her. MOO

I don't know.. I grew up in a poor family. We had limited resources when it came to entertaining ourselves. My brothers and I used to push each other around on our broken bikes, even wheel barrows when times were really tough.

One year we used an old wagon with the axles removed as a sled in the snow.

ETA: I am in no way saying that Lindseys family is poor. I know nothing about their finances. I was just saying that when a kid is bored they will find a way to entertain themselves. Pushing around a broken bike is really not that odd when you have nothing else to do. Who knows if it broke while L was on it, or if it had broken months before. The fact is.. the bike (for whatever reason) was left at the Shell. For how long? No one really knows.

I had a son who rode a broken bike because I don't think he even realized it was broken! I gave all the mechanical ability genes to his older brother! :crazy:

I don't know SS. I was just trying to relate one possibility of why she was on a broken bike at all. Also I am not suggesting a timeline or when during the day that might have taken place.

Any of the above scenarios related to the bike are possible, clearly the bike may have inspired some really nasty feelings between LB and JB, the exact method perhaps isn't as important as the negative sibling rivalry that resulted.

Which is why I can't clear the brother in this yet...

I'd love to be able to clear him completely, but I continue to be nagged by the "juvie" stuff. I have had experience with kids who have behavior problems, I worked with one individual, a teen, who one day could be so polite, in control, and helpful, then the next day he was the complete opposite, everything setting him off, even the slightest things. On those days he could be quite physical with peers, and the next day he'd be apologizing profusely.

I understand. I guess kids do things to entertain themselves that we as adults would never consider. I recall turning the bike upside down and spinning the tires for a long time for no apparent reason. LOL

The story is that they argued over who would take the bike home on the way to her friend's house. J did not want to push it back and she didn't want to push to her friend's and back home so they left it behind the Shell station. Her mother reports that the bike was not retrieved for 2-3 days.

So brother went without his bike for 2-3 days and just left it sitting there? Why? If he knew where it was...why? Hmmm...I guess that means he was on foot later that night and the following days he was out searching for Lindsey and she couldn't keep him home.

I think I will go check into what she said exactly about him searching etc.



Could there be two bikes? One that the brother rode around town when he was searching and there was a totally different, broken bike that they argued over and left behind the shell station?

[SeriouslySearching]

There could be two bikes. If so...did Lindsey not have one?

[Kimster]

There could be two bikes. If so...did Lindsey not have one?

ANOTHER question I have! We'll have to get a list of questions together to ask next time someone runs into KK!

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Maybe he was more interested in bikes than she was.....so he had an old one and got a newer, better one or something....and she decided to use the old one when he wasn't in a very sharing mood (you know how kids will be kids)?
I can have like, fifteen chew toys in the middle of the living room floor and 100% of the time BOTH dogs are going to want the SAME EXACT one....I guess they just want to argue over something....haven't totally figured out doggie psychology, yet...but give me time... :)

[christee]

At the risk of getting slapped :slap: I have a question and if it's been asked/answered then just carry on but leave me a link-something! How much time passed between the sibling fight and when the brother was next seen or accounted for?
Don't mean to cast suspicion on him but, well...
As for his ability to know a place to leave a body I'd say with all his biking about town he knew of many places that may have been hard to get to except on bike or foot.

[Kimster]

At the risk of getting slapped :slap: I have a question and if it's been asked/answered then just carry on but leave me a link-something! How much time passed between the sibling fight and when the brother was next seen or accounted for?
Don't mean to cast suspicion on him but, well...
As for his ability to know a place to leave a body I'd say with all his biking about town he knew of many places that may have been hard to get to except on bike or foot.

Lindsey and her friend left the brother after the fight and Lindsey went to her friend's house. She then left her friend's house and walked home alone, where she was seen at some point by another McCleary resident. I'm not sure of the times - we need a timeline thread!!!

[christee]

Lindsey and her friend left the brother after the fight and Lindsey went to her friend's house. She then left her friend's house and walked home alone, where she was seen at some point by another McCleary resident. I'm not sure of the times - we need a timeline thread!!!
Thx Kimster-ITA!

[SeriouslySearching]

Maybe he was more interested in bikes than she was.....so he had an old one and got a newer, better one or something....and she decided to use the old one when he wasn't in a very sharing mood (you know how kids will be kids)?
I can have like, fifteen chew toys in the middle of the living room floor and 100% of the time BOTH dogs are going to want the SAME EXACT one....I guess they just want to argue over something....haven't totally figured out doggie psychology, yet...but give me time... :)Off Topic: My dog found out if he hid his favorite toys, I would go buy him new toys. He has gained quite a stockpile! I dropped my remote under my bed and while fishing it out...I noticed his cache of hidden toys! He was busted! Which reminds me, his OCD is emerging...he has started laying his toys end to end in a neat straight line across the living room. WTH? Get your degree in doggie psychology fast! My dog needs serious therapy. :eek:

On Topic: For a girl that willingly pushed a bike without a chain all over town that day, I find it difficult to believe she didn't want one of her own. If she comes home, I am buying Lindsey a shiny new bike with a siren and a mace canister (forget the bells n whistles). We can add a license plate that says, Protected By WS.

[jvk]

Can some one site the source of the bike being behind station for 2-3 days? was it KK? (i missed this a while ago)

It just seems odd like why the hell would LE not be picking that up on day 1

I totally agree with you, JVK. (This discussion should probably move over to the Bike thread tho.)

The message you have entered is too short.

[DotsEyes]

Did the flip flop and sweatshirt hoodie found behind the Shell station belong to Lindsey?

Does anyone know what was wrong with the bike? Maybe they were going to pump air in the tires at the Shell Station?

[SeriouslySearching]

Evidently, it was only a rumor which could not be substantiated and was nixed by K's mom via her conversation with Cyber. So as far as we know, nothing like that was ever found and was mixed up with the items given to LE for the dogs to get their mark.

The story is the chain was either missing or off in some way. I haven't heard any reports about flat tires. It would make more sense as to why the bike was left in that location tho.

[LotsaLatte]

I really want to know when the bike was "found." If it was actually "found" 2 days after LB was reported missing, they didn't search very well. If it was left secured in place for investigative reasons, that would make me feel better. I have a little girl that is 9 and I would be livid if that bike and a 5 mile radius around it wasn't completely researched for any possible evidence. It's hard to figure out any possible places that LB is with such little information. It breaks my heart.

[SeriouslySearching]

Her brother knew where the bike was since they were together when she supposedly left it so I don't think it was a matter of LE "finding" it. I can't figure out why the brother left it for 2-3 days since he is the avid bike rider...according to his mother.

I cannot imagine why LE would want to leave it there either. Were they watching to see if someone was going to come back and get it? I guess it is possible if they thought Lindsey was a runaway at first, but why would she come back to get a bike that didn't work?

[distracted]

I've looked for over an hour for a media reference to the bike being left behind the station for 2-3 days and I couldn't find one. But there are many links to pages that are no longer available.

I know that KK said that the bike was left there for that length of time but I also remember MB, Lindsey's mom, confirming that it was left there for a couple of days after she went missing. I just can't find it. Sorry.

[LotsaLatte]

Her brother knew where the bike was since they were together when she supposedly left it so I don't think it was a matter of LE "finding" it. I can't figure out why the brother left it for 2-3 days since he is the avid bike rider...according to his mother.

I cannot imagine why LE would want to leave it there either. Were they watching to see if someone was going to come back and get it? I guess it is possible if they thought Lindsey was a runaway at first, but why would she come back to get a bike that didn't work?

Thank you, good point if they may have been waiting to see if anyone was coming back. However, I am still thinking that when a child is missing, everything and everyone should be questioned, etc. So, maybe if the bike was left there, they had processed it and watched. I just get the creeps thinking of her going to get the bike and someone taking the opportunity to grab her there or close by.

[Normcar21]

Maybe he was more interested in bikes than she was.....so he had an old one and got a newer, better one or something....and she decided to use the old one when he wasn't in a very sharing mood (you know how kids will be kids)?
I can have like, fifteen chew toys in the middle of the living room floor and 100% of the time BOTH dogs are going to want the SAME EXACT one....I guess they just want to argue over something....haven't totally figured out doggie psychology, yet...but give me time... :)

I appreciate your "doggie" analogy and definitely can apply to sibling rivalry in the human domain, at least from what I have seen. The quest for control.

[Kimster]

SS, your dog cracks me up!

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp236/Keefers_/Keefers%20Graphics/DogSnickerTeeHee-1.gif

[Normcar21]

Off Topic: My dog found out if he hid his favorite toys, I would go buy him new toys. He has gained quite a stockpile! I dropped my remote under my bed and while fishing it out...I noticed his cache of hidden toys! He was busted! Which reminds me, his OCD is emerging...he has started laying his toys end to end in a neat straight line across the living room. WTH? Get your degree in doggie psychology fast! My dog needs serious therapy. :eek:

On Topic: For a girl that willingly pushed a bike without a chain all over town that day, I find it difficult to believe she didn't want one of her own. If she comes home, I am buying Lindsey a shiny new bike with a siren and a mace canister (forget the bells n whistles). We can add a license plate that says, Protected By WS.

O/T - Smart dog, hilarious story, I'll bet his eyes and ears got all droopy once busted.

ON/T - I'm sure Lindsey would appreciate that gesture for sure. The more I "don't" learn about this family the more troublesome it is to me, no real statements of the great family unit, the love, the joy that is often shared in situations like this. The lack of family photos showing great smiles and healthy structure. I can think only of 2 off hand, the christmas photo (mother's little trouble maker) and the one of JB and MB with body paint and swim goggles. Surely there are more family photos that help identify Lindsey in her natural environment. All that I get from this family is silence, fear, juvie, trouble, broken bikes, arguments, 911 calls, etc., etc.

It's disturbing :confused:

[SeriouslySearching]

O/T - Smart dog, hilarious story, I'll bet his eyes and ears got all droopy once busted.

ON/T - I'm sure Lindsey would appreciate that gesture for sure. The more I "don't" learn about this family the more troublesome it is to me, no real statements of the great family unit, the love, the joy that is often shared in situations like this. The lack of family photos showing great smiles and healthy structure. I can think only of 2 off hand, the christmas photo (mother's little trouble maker) and the one of JB and MB with body paint and swim goggles. Surely there are more family photos that help identify Lindsey in her natural environment. All that I get from this family is silence, fear, juvie, trouble, broken bikes, arguments, 911 calls, etc., etc.

It's disturbing :confused:OT: Actually, it was more of a glare than droopy eyes. LOL

On Topic: The bike thing bothers me and I simply do not understand the situation. If brother has been in trouble in the past (which evidently is the case), why he is allowed to roam all over town on his bike anyway? Supervision appears to be an underlying factor here. Are the kids on their own while mom is working? Are they on their own pretty much even if she is home?

Now that you mention it, we aren't seeing photos with her and her family. Even on her website I noticed they have very few photos and most (if not all) were already in the press. I would think on her site since it is run by family and friends, there would be tons of family type photos.

It does make you wonder why we aren't hearing the good things about her family life. I hope there are happy stories to be told at the vigil tonight. The public needs to hear more of those.

[Normcar21]

Did the flip flop and sweatshirt hoodie found behind the Shell station belong to Lindsey?

Does anyone know what was wrong with the bike? Maybe they were going to pump air in the tires at the Shell Station?

As SS indicates, the flat tire idea was nixed by K. Whether or not she knows for sure is up for debate as many many posters both here and elsewhere take K's chat with a large grain of salt because of past conflicting information.

Personally, I can see the chain problem as being viable as well since it is easier to coast and glide a bike rather than walk. I used to do that as a kid, even when the chain wasn't broken, more fun to push, jump on seat, and glide. The bike may well have simply been incidental to the major sibling rivalry. If the bike chain didn't arise, then they would have found something else to argue about. I suspect that Lindsey and her girlfriend simply didn't want JB to tag along with them and they would have found something else to get him out of their hair. That myspace comment by LB again leaps out at me as I write: "Lindsey Baum is happy that her brother is going to juvie tomorrow."

To me, that statement -- made 9 days before she disappeared -- is significant plus.

[SeriouslySearching]

As SS indicates, the flat tire idea was nixed by K. Whether or not she knows for sure is up for debate as many many posters both here and elsewhere take K's chat with a large grain of salt because of past conflicting information.

Personally, I can see the chain problem as being viable as well since it is easier to coast and glide a bike rather than walk. I used to do that as a kid, even when the chain wasn't broken, more fun to push, jump on seat, and glide. The bike may well have simply been incidental to the major sibling rivalry. If the bike chain didn't arise, then they would have found something else to argue about. I suspect that Lindsey and her girlfriend simply didn't want JB to tag along with them and they would have found something else to get him out of their hair. That myspace comment by LB again leaps out at me as I write: "Lindsey Baum is happy that her brother is going to juvie tomorrow."

To me, that statement -- made 9 days before she disappeared -- is significant plus.What KK's mom nixed was the hoodie and flip flop being found instead of flat tires. Sorry, I was answering another post and should have been more clear.

I think the myspace comment is significant, too. So when did brother supposedly get out of Juvy and was he only there a week?

[Normcar21]

SS, I couldn't find a "vigil" thread, where is the vigil being held, please, thanks.

[Normcar21]

SS said:
What KK's mom nixed was the hoodie and flip flop being found instead of flat tires.

Me - I'm sure that I read about one of our 2 super sleuthes in the area inquiring about the bike problem and her saying it was the chain rather than a tire. I may well be mistaken, of course, thanks

[Normcar21]

SS said -

Now that you mention it, we aren't seeing photos with her and her family. Even on her website I noticed they have very few photos and most (if not all) were already in the press. I would think on her site since it is run by family and friends, there would be tons of family type photos.

It does make you wonder why we aren't hearing the good things about her family life. I hope there are happy stories to be told at the vigil tonight. The public needs to hear more of those.

Me - one reason I'd really like to see a more recent photo of JB is because I did spot some recent video of him and he looked a heck of a lot "larger" than he did in that swim and goggle photo that I believe to be a few years old.

JB looked much larger and bulky in the recent video

[JenniferO]

SS, I couldn't find a "vigil" thread, where is the vigil being held, please, thanks.

Here you go Norm
Candlelight Vigil Planned For Missing McCleary Girl:
published July 23, 2009 5:14PM

A candlelight vigil will be held Friday, July 24th at 9pm at the park across from the McCleary City Hall. The vigil will mark the 4th week that she's been missing.

Lindsey's mother Melissa says she's in the process of setting-up a search center in McCleary. She says it'll help organize volunteers to look for her daughter. A Sheriff's Office spokesman says they'll meet with Melissa to talk about her plans for the new center.

Meanwhile, investigators are still following leads and will continue to go door-to-door and search areas, but they still don't know what happened to her.

An Everett group called Operation Lookout has also created a flyer with Lindsey's information. The group hopes to distribute it at the U.S./Canadian border, on Washington State Ferries and in publications around the U.S. including Little Nickel. For more details go to: http://www.operationlookout.org/index1.htm
-snipped-

article
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-0715...,4993264.story (http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-071509-missinggirl,0,4993264.story)

video
http://www.q13fox.com/videobeta/watc...2428&src=front (http://www.q13fox.com/videobeta/watch/?watch=d3ac0a3e-8ae3-413a-a144-91a597c92428&src=front)

[hyldo]

AThat myspace comment by LB again leaps out at me as I write: "Lindsey Baum is happy that her brother is going to juvie tomorrow."

To me, that statement -- made 9 days before she disappeared -- is significant plus.

She made that comment on June 17. Using the Washington court records name search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.namesearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) and searching JB's name, I found that an individual with JB's name had a review hearing (in a felony case!) on June 18 in Grays Harbor County Superior Court. It seems likely to be JB's case as the case history includes an entry labeled "Stmnt Of Juv Offndr/plea of Guilty".

I think Lindsey probably heard her mother talking about the appearance and, while he wasn't actually being sent to a juvenile center on that date, an 11 year old girl wouldn't really know the distinction between going to court and going to juvy.

I should add that I learned the case was a felony-level case by taking the case number that I obtained from the name search and then searching by case number on the superior court case number search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.superiorSearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) page.

[SeriouslySearching]

SS, I couldn't find a "vigil" thread, where is the vigil being held, please, thanks.I just put it up!

[SeriouslySearching]

Wow! Great work, Hyldo! Felony! Hmmmm...sounds serious. This couldn't be a case of shoplifting or mere misdemeaner activity of a kid.

[~dragonfly~]

She made that comment on June 17. Using the Washington court records name search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.namesearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) and searching JB's name, I found that an individual with JB's name had a review hearing (in a felony case!) on June 18 in Grays Harbor County Superior Court. It seems likely to be JB's case as the case history includes an entry labeled "Stmnt Of Juv Offndr/plea of Guilty".

I think Lindsey probably heard her mother talking about the appearance and, while he wasn't actually being sent to a juvenile center on that date, an 11 year old girl wouldn't really know the distinction between going to court and going to juvy.

I should add that I learned the case was a felony-level case by taking the case number that I obtained from the name search and then searching by case number on the superior court case number search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.superiorSearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) page.

WOW!!!! :eek:

wonder what the heck he did! wonder if he was by himself when he committed the crime?

[~dragonfly~]

SS said -

Now that you mention it, we aren't seeing photos with her and her family. Even on her website I noticed they have very few photos and most (if not all) were already in the press. I would think on her site since it is run by family and friends, there would be tons of family type photos.

It does make you wonder why we aren't hearing the good things about her family life. I hope there are happy stories to be told at the vigil tonight. The public needs to hear more of those.

Me - one reason I'd really like to see a more recent photo of JB is because I did spot some recent video of him and he looked a heck of a lot "larger" than he did in that swim and goggle photo that I believe to be a few years old.

JB looked much larger and bulky in the recent video

from Cranky's photoalbum:

Josh walks with searcher Jeff Strege and Lindsey's dog Kadence, while Neil Newell hands out flyers to motorists 7/3/09



http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Lindsey%20Baum/doc4a4ef863951fd228403524.jpg

[not_my_kids]

She made that comment on June 17. Using the Washington court records name search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.namesearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) and searching JB's name, I found that an individual with JB's name had a review hearing (in a felony case!) on June 18 in Grays Harbor County Superior Court. It seems likely to be JB's case as the case history includes an entry labeled "Stmnt Of Juv Offndr/plea of Guilty".

I think Lindsey probably heard her mother talking about the appearance and, while he wasn't actually being sent to a juvenile center on that date, an 11 year old girl wouldn't really know the distinction between going to court and going to juvy.

I should add that I learned the case was a felony-level case by taking the case number that I obtained from the name search and then searching by case number on the superior court case number search (http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.superiorSearch&terms=accept&flashform=0) page.

If these are the same records that I found early on, they should also contain, at the end, a reference to probation modification. It could have been that Lindsey was hoping and praying that he would go to juvie, but they just revised his probation on him again.
I can't check myself, because my computer hates me and has decided that it will punish me by not opening links or letting me copy and paste unless it wants me to.

[Animal04216]

Just want to say that you all are walking a fine line with the juvenile records. DO NOT post his information here at this time. I have no problem with you talking about the fight and who may have been the adult who supposedly told him to go home, I do have an issue with his court info being put here unless LE actually comes out and says he is a POI. If that happens we can revisit what will be allowed.

[Normcar21]

I agree, Animal, thanks for holding us back from going overboard, which would not be helpful in any way.

[SeriouslySearching]

Just want to say that you all are walking a fine line with the juvenile records. DO NOT post his information here at this time. I have no problem with you talking about the fight and who may have been the adult who supposedly told him to go home, I do have an issue with his court info being put here unless LE actually comes out and says he is a POI. If that happens we can revisit what will be allowed.It is too late to edit my posts about that matter. Sorry.

I have a thousand questions about the brother in this case! :X His mother has been quite outspoken about the physical altercations between he and Lindsey to the point she grew long fingernails for self defense. Are we free to discuss these things since she brought them into the media spotlight herself?

[SeriouslySearching]

Brought over from Gen. Discussion thread:

Originally posted by Cyberswept:
I met JB. He seemed well mannered enough, but in my honest opinion, detached from the whole thing. Most of the kids sat and listened to the speakers while he was up moving around most of the time. My wife also told me that when they would go to the park there, they would always see him and that he was very friendly. He even pushed my daughter around in a wheel barrow one day. My wife didn't realize who he was until tonight.

~snipped~


You mentioned that your wife said JB pushed your kiddo around in a wheelbarrow while at the park. Where did the wheelbarrow come from? Where is it now? How long ago was that activity with your kiddo?

She said he brought the wheel barrow with him. It was only about 2 weeks before Lindsey disappeared.

Have no idea where it is now.

Isn't that interesting? He just carts around his own wheelbarrow to put people in at the park. :waitasec:

[JenniferO]

Wait.. wheelbarrow?

That makes transporting things around a lot easier. Wonder if he has access to a shovel too.:waitasec:

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Off Topic: My dog found out if he hid his favorite toys, I would go buy him new toys. He has gained quite a stockpile! I dropped my remote under my bed and while fishing it out...I noticed his cache of hidden toys! He was busted! Which reminds me, his OCD is emerging...he has started laying his toys end to end in a neat straight line across the living room. WTH? Get your degree in doggie psychology fast! My dog needs serious therapy. :eek:

On Topic: For a girl that willingly pushed a bike without a chain all over town that day, I find it difficult to believe she didn't want one of her own. If she comes home, I am buying Lindsey a shiny new bike with a siren and a mace canister (forget the bells n whistles). We can add a license plate that says, Protected By WS.


Love the story about your dog. Consider yourself lucky....at least you know where you can expect to find the toys! I regularly stumble across doggie "boobie traps" that I trip over when it's dark or if I'm not paying attention....my house is like an obstacle course of bones and toys....as if it wasn't hard enough to stay upright with two dogs and a cat underfoot 24/7. Current working theory is that they're training me.....but I can't figure out what they're training me for and am not sure why a bunch of dog-bone-land-mines are necessary.

I'll see your siren, mace canister, and license plate and I will raise you a GPS tracking device, a dog leash attachment for Kadence (saw them on Animal Planet the other day....thought they were really neat), and I'll throw in the bells and whistles (just cause she's a little girl and IMO needs some sparkly streamers). :blowkiss: OMG, almost forgot about helmet and other safety stuff....LOL....I'm not very "on-top-of-it" lately.

Nice searching guys, you've found SOOOO much interesting information. I'm impressed AND jealous (I would LOVE to be able to do that kind of sleuthing)!!
Quick question: Since the brother is a child, would the police be able to tell the media or the public? I know that there aren't any POIs at all right now, but didn't think that they would be able to tell anyone if he ended up being a POI for the same reasons that we can't post about his records on here.
And about the wheelbarrow....does anyone have any more info on that? It's an interesting item....not the typical play-thing. I mean, I used to get my Grandfather to give me a ride in his but we were always at home and in his yard. I also remember how difficult it was to climb out of it once I got in it (because of the slope they have on the sides, especially on the front).

[kageykaren]

I'm curious if we have an enlarged photo of JB? Also I'm wondering if JB has a different father from Lindsey? Sorry if I missed that info. I have experience in adolescent psychiatry and noticed members are beginning to take a closer look at JB's history and may be feeling something is a bit off. Just from what members have posted about his behaviors it seems JB has displayed the beginnings of anti social behavior. Age 12 is about the time these behaviors start surfacing. Although I need a closer look at his physical appearence, from the pictures & behavior associated with the pics one could asess sweetly so that he is a bit of a goofy kid, eager to be a part of a group. It seems that his maturation level is a bit delayed compared to other boys his age. It would interesting to find out his educational placement in the classroom and if he struggled with classes designed for that age group. I think I read one of our posters is a local teacher who may be able to address this topic without crossing boundries. My thoughts are if sluethers start at the nucleus of the family and work outword from the days before Lindsey posted her fears on Myspace. My gut says to me alittle spunky girl would share her fear with one of her BFF's. One of the first things a child will hide from the world is a sincere feeling of family strife causing fear. Kids this age want to fit in. Lindsey however left the world to see her message of trepadation for her future. This is huge in my book and should not be taken lightly. Ten yr. old girls aren't usually quite so "heavey" about lifes future. I'm not blaming mom brother, boyfriend but something within the nucleus of the family hasn't been addressed. I feel knowing if Linsey shared her trepadation within her family and her fears were laid to rest or did she not share. We are talking about a ten yr. old that you would think would go straight to mommy or a trusted adult. This tells me A:it wasn't an issue, B:lindsey did share with mom or an adult and her fears were laid to rest, C: She kept her fear to herself, and went on with life playing as normal, D: The fear and trepadation for her future came to light on the day she vanished. Please no barking about guilt of mother for this is more like profiling a families everday life that may then extend away from family to everyday close friends and to aquaintences, & on &on till one has sluethed everything Mc Cleary. Also did lindsey have an adult friend male or female she could confide in so as not to bother mom with her "drama". Side note, I'm sorry for getting my advocating hairs up on the threads as this is more of a sluething site for Lindsey and enlisting help can be done within the county and Seattle as that is where the FBI is working out of. My empathetic heart goes out to Lindsey's family but my L brain "Spock Logic is used for sluething anything and anybody.

[SeriouslySearching]

Originally Posted by cyberswept
Just showed the wife a picture of the pool where the wheelbarrow is setting. She says that is not the wheelbarrow he was pushing my daughter in.

It is curious where he got a wheelbarrow unless their landlord owns it and had it at their house for a reason. I know if I didn't have a vehicle and was supporting to kids alone...a wheelbarrow would not be on my list of things to buy.

I noticed in the photos behind the white barriers behind the ballfield...there are large piles of what look to be gravel. Were they there before? Could they have a wheelbarrow to use to move that gravel around to different areas? Maybe he "borrowed" it.

[Bobbisangel]

O/T - Smart dog, hilarious story, I'll bet his eyes and ears got all droopy once busted.

ON/T - I'm sure Lindsey would appreciate that gesture for sure. The more I "don't" learn about this family the more troublesome it is to me, no real statements of the great family unit, the love, the joy that is often shared in situations like this. The lack of family photos showing great smiles and healthy structure. I can think only of 2 off hand, the christmas photo (mother's little trouble maker) and the one of JB and MB with body paint and swim goggles. Surely there are more family photos that help identify Lindsey in her natural environment. All that I get from this family is silence, fear, juvie, trouble, broken bikes, arguments, 911 calls, etc., etc.

It's disturbing :confused:


I love the dog storys too. I've never heard of a dog lining up his toys end to end. That must have been something to watch! Pretty smart dog you have SS hiding his toys under the bed!!!!

Remember that the parents had just gotten a divorce. Maybe it wasn't the happiest of homes for a long time. I would imagine now the mom and kids are trying to adjust to the divorce and everyone might not be to happy about it. Maybe this is a part of the son's troubles. We don't know how close to dad the kids were and dad has moved a long ways away if I remember correctly.
The adjustment might have been really hard for the kids even if it was for the best. I wonder if the boy was getting into trouble when dad was there or since he left? I wonder how close to dad Lindsey was? Girls tend to be really close to their dads. I wonder if this caused problems if Lindsey was the closest.

[kageykaren]

I love the dog storys too. I've never heard of a dog lining up his toys end to end. That must have been something to watch! Pretty smart dog you have SS hiding his toys under the bed!!!!

Remember that the parents had just gotten a divorce. Maybe it wasn't the happiest of homes for a long time. I would imagine now the mom and kids are trying to adjust to the divorce and everyone might not be to happy about it. Maybe this is a part of the son's troubles. We don't know how close to dad the kids were and dad has moved a long ways away if I remember correctly.
The adjustment might have been really hard for the kids even if it was for the best. I wonder if the boy was getting into trouble when dad was there or since he left? I wonder how close to dad Lindsey was? Girls tend to be really close to their dads. I wonder if this caused problems if Lindsey was the closest.I think looking at this aspect of the family trying to possibly work through their grief of a daddy moving out with and I believe into a new relationship would take its time for all. It makes you ask if someone new their pain and struggle starting over and befriended Lindsey. I just read an article quoting one of the officers that they feel it is someone she new. I believe he stated that this assumption was due to know one hearing screams. This is just so sad. I gotta stick to the asrro thread and keep a more positive outlook. This would noy be a good thing as the abductor has everything to loose.

[Normcar21]

KAGYKAREN SAID

We are talking about a ten yr. old that you would think would go straight to mommy or a trusted adult.

My response, and some other things that I'd like to say about your super input:

I agree, posts that I have read from a ML claim that LB visited her a number of times in order to report abuse to 911. Now, assuming without any objective verification that ML's statements have some veracity, I have wondered why LB would rush 2 blocks down to ML's home to report abuse rather than just tell mom. One thing that ML apparently was bothered by is that LE would simply pick LB up and return her to "her abuser" as she described. In otherwords, a potential crime was reported agains LB, by LB, and then LE picked her up and drove her a few blocks home to the supposed location of offense. If true, and I cannot verify it and have heard of nobody who can, this is sick beyond words, poor LB.

To me this household shows signs of heightened dysfunction, and I am basing my thoughts only on what I have learned over the years working with counsellors as applying to students that I have taught, and have been given professional advice as to what and how to respond in order to glean positive responses.

I am not local to McCleary so I have no information relative to her school, or JB's.

A ton of red flags are bursting forth relative to this family, the divorce, the juvie thing, the apparent 911 reports, the suggested "remoteness" of JB in some situations and then reports of extremely positive openness in other reports where he gives wheelbarrow rides and is pleasant. Then another report describes the individual as having anger spurts that last for a few minutes, then back to a controlled nature. It's just a whole lot of evidence of what I have been told is dysfunction related to a family in trouble. One report claimed that JB looked up to MB seemingly as evidence that he could not be suspect in any way. I've seen people who can turn it on and off at a whim, and not only adults. I have not heard one report that this individual has any friends or is in any way socially adept, which tosses out another red flag. This person appears to be a loner which is another sign of dysfunction, from what I have been told throught the years, and I have seen it myself in classroom situations where one tiny incident will set the child off, then next day all is well.

Karen, Your comments are welcome, thanks for your input, everything needs to be looked into without -- as Animal suggests -- infringing on legal considerations. However, perhaps the legal system needs to do some second thinking about protection of juvenile records, especially in cases like this.

[Normcar21]

I love the dog storys too. I've never heard of a dog lining up his toys end to end. That must have been something to watch! Pretty smart dog you have SS hiding his toys under the bed!!!!

Remember that the parents had just gotten a divorce. Maybe it wasn't the happiest of homes for a long time. I would imagine now the mom and kids are trying to adjust to the divorce and everyone might not be to happy about it. Maybe this is a part of the son's troubles. We don't know how close to dad the kids were and dad has moved a long ways away if I remember correctly.
The adjustment might have been really hard for the kids even if it was for the best. I wonder if the boy was getting into trouble when dad was there or since he left? I wonder how close to dad Lindsey was? Girls tend to be really close to their dads. I wonder if this caused problems if Lindsey was the closest.

Good points, perhaps something well worth checking would be the past history of this family prior to all of this divorce stuff. Clearly the time of disappearance was a heightened time of stress for both kids.

[Normcar21]

It is curious where he got a wheelbarrow unless their landlord owns it and had it at their house for a reason. I know if I didn't have a vehicle and was supporting to kids alone...a wheelbarrow would not be on my list of things to buy.

I noticed in the photos behind the white barriers behind the ballfield...there are large piles of what look to be gravel. Were they there before? Could they have a wheelbarrow to use to move that gravel around to different areas? Maybe he "borrowed" it.

That's an interesting question SS as I was wondering about what type of wheel barrow it actually was. I did a lot of construction work while going through college and, ugh, a whole lot of it was pushing one of those "pro" construction wheelbarrows with the big fat fluffy tire, really bouncy. I'd like to know what sort of wheelbarrow JB was pushing around, was it a "consumer" barrow...weak wheels, breaks in a second...or one of those real "construction" barrows. If it was a construction barrow, then I'd say your idea of "borrowing" from a construction site is very viable.

[Normcar21]

I've been re-reading everything about JB and am really finding fault with the idea that he is responsible in any way:
- it has been indicated that he looked up to his sister
- it is doubtful that he would have the intelligence to commit such a flawless crime, without clear evidence
- he simply does not have the intelligence to commit such a crime and hide it
- I reiterate the above

I don't think this possibility is very credible. And the pain to the family, if they read this, moves me to put it way back on the back burner, personally.

[SeriouslySearching]

Sorry, Norm...but I have to disagree.

I don't see how we can rule out the brother here. I haven't been able to yet. And yes...he could keep it from LE and his mother. We don't know his personality and his mental make-up at this point except that he has some behavioral issues.

Sociopaths were children once, too. Psychopaths didn't just wake up one day and become crazy either. Not saying JB is either one of these things, but the truth is...we don't know.

IF those rumors are true about knives, shovels, choking etc., then we have to look at how far out of hand things could have gotten with Lindsey. Her mother obviously wasn't doing much to combat the problem between them since she herself brought up that Lindsey grew her fingernails long to defend herself against her brother. She also said there were physical altercations. They must have been pretty bad for Lindsey to purposefully need those nails to gouge him. The mother was promoting Lindsey to physically harm her brother during fights, imo. What does this say about her ability to control him?

(Brought over from the gen. dis. thread)

[concentric]

So no word on who the "family friend" is who broke up the fight?

[NWDolphinsFan]

Sorry, Norm...but I have to disagree.

I don't see how we can rule out the brother here. I haven't been able to yet. And yes...he could keep it from LE and his mother. We don't know his personality and his mental make-up at this point except that he has some behavioral issues.



I agree about not ruling out the brother. Or maybe one of his friends.

I grew up with an older brother who abused me. He had several warnings as a juvi with LE for drinking; when intoxicated, he was very abusive towards vulnerable people around him. Being I was 10-years younger than my brother, I was often the target - beginning when I was about 7-8. I'd have bruises on my arms and legs but our mother and father did nothing to try to stop the abuse or get my brother help. They'd sweep it under the table and forget about it. Eventually, I gave up complaining to our mother & father and I found someone else with sympathetic ears - our neighbors. One neighbor took me bowling. Another neighbor later (as a teen) hired me to babysit their children. But I grew up as a pre-teen and teenager being close to other adults; I'd still confide in my mother & father but their approach was to sweep it under the table and forget about it.

One time, my brother almost drowned me after drinking beer can after beer can.

Serving time in juvi did not help my brother, it actually made him more secretive and selective in picking times to abuse me. He moved out of our parents' home at age-18. Serving time in jail as a young adult did not help my brother (and he served time twice for resisting arrest while under the influence of beer). What turned him around? It took a special woman he meet at a bar to turn him around. And they have been married for almost 40-years - and he has not consumed an alcoholic drink in that time. And today, I am proud of my brother and his accomplishments ... but the scars remain, even if they are not physical scars.

I wonder what scars LB has from JB and JB's friends?

Another thought here - could JB have hit-up on one of LB's friends (sex or drugs or stolen property) and LB found out? Just a thought here from left-field.

-------------
In My Opinion

[kageykaren]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with this as a child and greatful that you found away to stay semi-safe by including other good adult mentors in your life as this form of abuse has long lasting effects. You and others are the prime example I posted the info. on "Sibling Abuse" So glad to here your brother turned a tide to live a happier life, alcohol and abuse free! Thank you for sharing your personal story in order to help others realize this problem.