Canada-**FOUND** Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #23

[christine2448]

Please continue here. Thanks.

[Kamille]

The "upright tarp" you're seeing in that picture misses is a person in a white oversuit. It's a little blurry because the picture has been magnified.

[sillybilly]

The "upright tarp" you're seeing in that picture misses is a person in a white oversuit. It's a little blurry because the picture has been magnified.

Someone indicated we don't know where the white tarp came from, but I think we do. In the pic where the blue tarp is initially shown at the base of the tree, there is an officer who appears to be kneeling directly in front of the blue tarp, holding what appears to be the rolled white tarp, preparing to unroll it into its subsequent position.

[roseofsharon]

http://www.mountforest.com/index.php?article=1197

Sorry, if I have duplicated this article.

[Kamille]

Someone indicated we don't know where the white tarp came from, but I think we do. In the pic where the blue tarp is initially shown at the base of the tree, there is an officer who appears to be kneeling directly in front of the blue tarp, holding what appears to be the rolled white tarp, preparing to unroll it into its subsequent position.


Yes it does appear that they are preparing to roll out the white tarp sillybilly.


http://i31.tinypic.com/fly59x.jpg

[misses]

Does anyone know if there was a tree stump where that blue tarp is? also any elm or birch in the area? And my previous question again, can you tell in the pix zoomed in if theres a circle of boulders to the left of the tree? Thank you.

[roseofsharon]

Does anyone know if there was a tree stump where that blue tarp is? also any elm or birch in the area? And my previous question again, can you tell in the pix zoomed in if theres a circle of boulders to the left of the tree? Thank you.

Misses, I am looking at the pic and at first glance, I thought it was just a rock pile, but now I am not sure if this is a circle of rocks and perhaps where bonfires have been made. Wasn't there something mentioned about weiner roasts at that spot by the local young crowd?

[misses]

flipflop flipflop is offline
Registered User


I REALLY don't understand, WHY would they leave clues when they were trying to hide a body? This really makes no sense whatsoever! IMO

Sorry, I wasnt able to reply with quote so had to copy and paste, I know its not ethical and I'm sorry. Answer to that is, I never said it was either of the accused that laid all these clues. Regardless I'm just glad they were followed. As to the cell access question Antique Girl there must be, as thats what is believed to be the origin of my email that was sent to me, via a cell tower in the area. -With a guelph provider- Rogers.

[roseofsharon]

I read a previous post that perhaps the murder was never supposed to happen, thus placing Tori in a tranquil, careful spot (paraphrasing).

IMO, if that were the case, they could have called Crimestoppers and left an anonymous tip (immediately) as to her location and not put the family through weeks of agonizing grief, and not knowing if their precious daughter was dead or alive.

IMO, they didn't call Crimestoppers because they had much more than a dead body to hide.

Serene, tranquil, peaceful, -- pure coincidence.

[misses]

My own silly little thoughts are that it wasnt supposed to end this way either. Mistakes were made, and this was the end result. My thoughts are there was some kind of plan, that did not fall through like it was supposed to. -Certain parties were infact urged to end this, urged to move on but something entirely different happened, somehow along the line. I believe TLM lost her cool, did something "in the moment" and that was that and they were never able to carry out their orders.. or something simular but you see what I'm saying. But what do I know? JMO of coarse.

[misses]

Misses, I am looking at the pic and at first glance, I thought it was just a rock pile, but now I am not sure if this is a circle of rocks and perhaps where bonfires have been made. Wasn't there something mentioned about weiner roasts at that spot by the local young crowd?

Roseofsharon thank you, I suppose yes there was a weiner roast a month back but not why I needed to know this. Thank you very much, it has to do with photos. Most of all I'm asking in here has to do with photos. (ones found way before discovery) I thought so. I needed a second opinion.

[Flowercb]

I read a previous post that perhaps the murder was never supposed to happen, thus placing Tori in a tranquil, careful spot (paraphrasing).

IMO, if that were the case, they could have called Crimestoppers and left an anonymous tip (immediately) as to her location and not put the family through weeks of agonizing grief, and not knowing if their precious daughter was dead or alive.

IMO, they didn't call Crimestoppers because they had much more than a dead body to hide.

Serene, tranquil, peaceful, -- pure coincidence.

If they didn't plan to kill her after the assault, what did they plan to do let her go home and tell her parents? I don't understand why you think they didn't plan to kill her.

[roseofsharon]

If they didn't plan to kill her after the assault, what did they plan to do let her go home and tell her parents? I don't understand why you think they didn't plan to kill her.

Read my post again!!

I said ... I READ IN A PREVIOUS POST ...

Now read what I said further in my post ...

Of course I believe they meant to kill her!! :blowkiss:

[Flowercb]

No need to take things personally, as I meant whoever said that should reconsider.

[Hello_Kitty]

Sillybilly,

Do you still have the original photo of the site with your yellow squiggles on it, I'd like to touch it up in photosuite like I did the one above Kamille used. In your pic I can see that an officer is putting something into a white bag, altho not sure if it is a bag or a white container. If you still have it, or have the link where I can get it, please just pm me or something.

Thank you,

HK

[misses]

Read my post again!!

I said ... I READ IN A PREVIOUS POST ...

Now read what I said further in my post ...

Of course I believe they meant to kill her!! :blowkiss:

I dont.:eek: I believe there was an alternate plan. What -I dont know, JMO

[antiquegirl]

Read my post again!!

I said ... I READ IN A PREVIOUS POST ...

Now read what I said further in my post ...

Of course I believe they meant to kill her!! :blowkiss:

IF there was a premeditated sexual assault, then there had to be a premeditated murder. No question. Nobody would be stupid enough to let a victim go after that.

But if there was not a sexual assault (and I'm not convinced that there was), then the death could have been accidental or happened spontaneously for a variety of reasons.

This all depends on the original intent of the abduction and we don't have enough evidence yet for me to come to any conclusions.

(Needless to say, the latter scenario does not diminish the monstrosity of the crime.)

JMO

[misses]

If they didn't plan to kill her after the assault, what did they plan to do let her go home and tell her parents? I don't understand why you think they didn't plan to kill her.

to go home and tell who??....:waitasec:

[roseofsharon]

No need to take things personally, as I meant whoever said that should reconsider.

I'm sorry Flower -- I didn't mean to come across that way.

From one flower to another flower -- we're still buds :)

[sillybilly]

Sillybilly,

Do you still have the original photo of the site with your yellow squiggles on it, I'd like to touch it up in photosuite like I did the one above Kamille used. In your pic I can see that an officer is putting something into a white bag, altho not sure if it is a bag or a white container. If you still have it, or have the link where I can get it, please just pm me or something.

Thank you,

HK

Video on the right hand side of this page:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090720/remains_found_090720/20090720/?site_codename=toronto

At .31 or .32, click through in very minute frames and there are one or two frames where you will see the totally circular, fairly bright green object which appears to be in the centre of a hexagonal or octagonal white object.

There is another frame with the white-suited forensics person on the right hand side. They appear to have something purple in their hands. Can't recall if it's around the same seekpoint or further into the video. They are very short clips. HTH

ETA: Just went back and looked and both are are part of the same clip. If you take your cursor up to the seekpoint bar, a button with 2 vertical bars || will appear on the seekpoint bar. To move through in the tiniest fashion, place the point of your cursor the tiniest smidge to the right or left of either bar to go back or forth. There is only 1 clickpoint where you will see either of the items fairly clearly.

[Flowercb]

I'm sorry Flower -- I didn't mean to come across that way.

From one flower to another flower -- we're still buds :)

I know we are all passionate about this. It's difficult for me in particular to consider that these two accused are nuturing in any way. And I believe you feel the same way.

Yes, we are still buds. With all this rain we will be in full bloom if we can only get some sun now. My flowers in my garden (many of them purple for Tori) need some warmth and sunshine.

[misses]

Does anyone here have all the video links together? As I know I did at 1 time just to keep track FACTS on my site but Ive deleted the news blog. What Im looking for in particular is the presser where TM says, "oh yeah, we do know her, James was just there (last) or (the other) night.." after the arrests. I can look myself mind you just thought maybe if someone is saving all the videos..contact me pls...

[roseofsharon]

Video on the right hand side of this page:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090720/remains_found_090720/20090720/?site_codename=toronto

At .31 or .32, click through in very minute frames and there are one or two frames where you will see the totally circular, fairly bright green object which appears to be in the centre of a hexagonal or octagonal white object.

There is another frame with the white-suited forensics person on the right hand side. They appear to have something purple in their hands. Can't recall if it's around the same seekpoint or further into the video. They are very short clips. HTH

ETA: Just went back and looked and both are are part of the same clip. If you take your cursor up to the seekpoint bar, a button with 2 vertical bars || will appear on the seekpoint bar. To move through in the tiniest fashion, place the point of your cursor the tiniest smidge to the right or left of either bar to go back or forth. There is only 1 clickpoint where you will see either of the items fairly clearly.

Now that I have seen this location, it is even more miraculous to me that she was ever found.

As a Mom, if this were my child, I would need to go there, touch the ground where she was laid, touch the trees, close my eyes, breathe deeply and say a little prayer and place a purple teddy.

I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but this is what I am feeling after seeing this footage.

[nonfictionrocks]

Now that I have seen this location, it is even more miraculous to me that she was ever found.

As a Mom, if this were my child, I would need to go there, touch the ground where she was laid, touch the trees, close my eyes, breathe deeply and say a little prayer and place a purple teddy.

I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but this is what I am feeling after seeing this footage.

It was a miracle that she was found - thanks to outstanding police work!

When my brother died a couple of years I went to the scene the next day and I have gone there every anniversary since. If a child of mine died tragically I would probably camp out at the scene for days!

Does anyone know if TM or RS been out to the site yet?

[misses]

Tyvm silly billy as that was what i was referring to earlier when someone replied it was tarp or something ? smh.. Its a formation, I hear you. Its spray paint or ? something.. on it

[Kamille]

If they didn't plan to kill her after the assault, what did they plan to do let her go home and tell her parents? I don't understand why you think they didn't plan to kill her.

That was me who said that I didn't think they planned to kill her. Of course I'm totally open to other theories and anything that comes out at trial that indicates that it was in fact intended to be a murder would not surprise me in the least because I do not personally know either of the accused. It's just the bold outfit and lack of disguise worn by TLM, the passing of at least one other adult on the street in broad daylight that makes me think that this was not the original intent.

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant by saying that I don't think a murder was planned and I'd like to point out that this is just my opinion only. It is believed that most sexual assaults on children are by people that they know. It is also believed that only 10 percent of sexual assaults are ever reported. Children are also co-erced into sexual situations and relationships with adults, being convinced that they are playing some kind of game or being threatened not to talk about it. I'm sure there are lots of ways to manipulate naive young children into keeping quiet. It's entirely possible with TLM's apparent upbringing that she herself could have been in just such a situation. I believe there are children in that situation right now as I type this.

We think that Tori may have known TLM in some capacity through the dogs. TLM could have been grooming her for weeks, hanging around the area and talking to Tori whenever she ran into her, gaining her friendship and trust. I just can't quite grasp how TLM was able to lead Tori away from the school so easily, across the street away from her route home and into a car, unless she had established herself as someone that Tori trusted. If this is the case, she most likely would have used an assumed name so that if Tori mentioned her new "friend with the dogs" to her mother, she would not know her real name. And it was reported when TLM was arrested that she did know TM but did not know that Tori was her daughter. For some reason I believe this. She thought that Tori was a random child from the neighbourhood whom she had no connection to. That doesn't mean that the decision to lead her away after school was all that spontaneous or random. TLM probably knew some of Tori's after school habits and might even have known that she moved and would be spending the first week at her Grandma's and getting a ride to and from school.

Tori however, by her mother's account, was a street wise young girl who would know when she was being placed in a wrong and dangerous situation and would give her tormentors "a hard time". If MR had tried to entice her into a situation in which she was uncomfortable, she most likely would have screamed and raised hell. And you're quite right it most likely would have become obvious to them at that point that she would go home and tell all. So in this scenario you've got a screaming defiant child and a panicked predator. And something happened that took the life of a beautiful young girl.

[bleedingheart]

I dont.:eek: I believe there was an alternate plan. What -I dont know, JMO
The perpetrators who did this horrible crime meant to do what they did...There is no question in my mind. If they were in the mind to sexually assault her, then they certainly was in the same mind to kill her. The sick SOB's

[roseofsharon]

It was a miracle that she was found - thanks to outstanding police work!

When my brother died a couple of years I went to the scene the next day and I have gone there every anniversary since. If a child of mine died tragically I would probably camp out at the scene for days!

Does anyone know if TM or RS been out to the site yet?

I'm sorry for your loss NFR.

I haven't read that TM or RS have been there, but maybe LE hasn't given clearance.

[misses]

In these specific photos Im speaking of, there does happen to be alot of green, flourecent green in them all. Its really weird. I thot to be photoshopd but could also be photoshopd pix of objects painted green. Trust me, theyre all really weird.
I should elaborate I dont mean of the scene. I mean pix Ive seen elsewhere...

[Anothermom]

I did want to point out the fact that MR had no idea if TLM would be successful or not in luring this child. That might be one reason they didn't have what they would have needed and had to stop by HD and that might also be the reason he was just then gassing up. This may not be the first time she had actually tried, seeming that she was hanging out there for a few days around the school, that we know of. In my opinion, she had been there on more occasions, in fact, trying to do the same thing. This was just the only time that we know that she was successful. If she didn't know TS, then why would they not have picked a different town? If they had gone somewhere where they were unknown, then chances are they wouldn't have been found out.

And I remember saying earlier that TLM didn't try to disguise herself but, apparently, she was trying to disguise herself as TM, and this I gleaned from looking back and listening to different things and other statements I have read. But, I guess, white puffy coats could be very common. But the similar white coat to TM, the ponytail, the black jeans...I am just saying. But, to me, the sketch did look almost identical to TM's friend that was sitting on the sofa next to her in one of her interviews, even in the way she combed her hair. I know that it was not that person and that, thankfully, her(TLM'S) neighbors recognized her and then kept a lookout for her latest beau until they saw him riding around the hood.

And, yes, even here in the deep south, I have seen a number of purple blooms everywhere. I even have purple flowers in my yard that have never bloomed before, actual flowers. Barely anything blooms in my yard due to the live oaks...they are huge and shade my entire yard and home.

[Flowercb]

I watched the interview by City TV with Det-Sgt. Smith again and he said that he is a criminal profiler and that he looks at what makes people committ the crimes that they do and aids in how to procede in an investigation. In another article it mentions that Det-Sgt. Smith is the one that mentioned the similarities between the location, victim, etc. of the crime 21 years previous with Tori's murder. I'll bet he is investigating the relationship between MTR and the location. As far a TLM goes she doesn't seem like she had a clue about the area as per her lack of an exact location for LE to go to.

I would think that TLM went along with MTR's suggestion for a "spot" to place Tori. Not that TLM is an innocent bystander in this crime. If she didn't bring Tori to him this would never of happened regardless of her part after this.

[Kamille]

I read a previous post that perhaps the murder was never supposed to happen, thus placing Tori in a tranquil, careful spot (paraphrasing).

IMO, if that were the case, they could have called Crimestoppers and left an anonymous tip (immediately) as to her location and not put the family through weeks of agonizing grief, and not knowing if their precious daughter was dead or alive.

IMO, they didn't call Crimestoppers because they had much more than a dead body to hide.

Serene, tranquil, peaceful, -- pure coincidence.

I don't believe that finding the body was ever a consideration to MR. And certainly not immediately. He watches CSI, he knows what information could be gathered. I think he's a coward and I don't think he'd do anything to jeopardize being caught. That doesn't mean I don't think he might have had some remorse that he chose to keep to himself. He has maintained his innocence right up until the point of the remains being found. It will be interesting to see where things go from here and whether any evidence from finding the remains, even at this late date, points directly to him. If things went down the way LE seems to think they did, for Tori and her family's sake, I hope it does.

[Anothermom]

Pure Speculation and Surmise:

I think he was probably surprised that TLM pulled it off. Maybe they were just sleeping together and he was telling her fantasies and she was trying to help him fulfill his fantasies(?)...If the boy child can ID these two as the two who tried to abduct him, that would make for interesting speculation. I am sure LE has gone back to see if they can see TLM in video before this. I am starting to think that TLM had some personal vendetta against TM (that was maybe even sexual in nature with TM's boyfriend or some other scenario when maybe TLM needed cash or was in a bad way - like she may have offered herself to them or something and was turned down or it didn't end up with her getting what she was after (cash, drugs)) and that she intentionally took "this" child and not that she was just a child they sought out for sexual assaultation.

And, Kamille, I have also thought that maybe she(VEMS) was just a handful for them and that they killed her because they couldn't trust her to not tell on them and identify them...or that once they did whatever, they had no way to return her without repercussions.

[Flowercb]

I don't believe that finding the body was ever a consideration to MR. And certainly not immediately. He watches CSI, he knows what information could be gathered. I think he's a coward and I don't think he'd do anything to jeopardize being caught. That doesn't mean I don't think he might have had some remorse that he chose to keep to himself. He has maintained his innocence right up until the point of the remains being found. It will be interesting to see where things go from here and whether any evidence from finding the remains, even at this late date, points directly to him. If things went down the way LE seems to think they did, for Tori and her family's sake, I hope it does.

I would like to believe that if he is feeling remorse that he will do the right thing and admit he committed the crime. If he did do it the police will probably have enough evidence right now to get a sucessful conviction and he is no better off. Except maybe his family will hold strong with him and believe he was wrongfully convicted. Look at S. Peterson.

Getting it off his chest will be the best thing for him and for Tori's family. If he doesn't admit the crime they will have to go through a needless, painful trial.

If he keeps his guilt to himself because he is ashamed of what his family or others might think, then eventually he will become physically ill. Not that he doesn't deserve to feel that way.

[Kamille]

I would like to believe that if he is feeling remorse that he will do the right thing and admit he committed the crime. If he did do it the police will probably have enough evidence right now to get a sucessful conviction and he is no better off. Except maybe his family will hold strong with him and believe he was wrongfully convicted. Look at S. Peterson.

Getting it off his chest will be the best thing for him and for Tori's family. If he doesn't admit the crime they will have to go through a needless, painful trial.

If he keeps his guilt to himself because he is ashamed of what his family or others might think, then eventually he will become physically ill. Not that he doesn't deserve to feel that way.

Well I was thinking that he may have been feeling some remorse on April 8th which led him to dispose of the remains in the way that he did but I think if he is in fact guilty of this crime, he may have removed himself mentally from all of it right after that. Apparently people can do this and just carry on with their lives as if that event never happened but yes I do believe it catches up with them eventually in the form of illness. Wouldn't that be some form of post traumatic stress or something?

[Anothermom]

S. Peterson is at the very least a sociopath. I don't think MR fits into that category.

[Flowercb]

Well I was thinking that he may have been feeling some remorse on April 8th which led him to dispose of the remains in the way that he did but I think if he is in fact guilty of this crime, he may have removed himself mentally from all of it right after that. Apparently people can do this and just carry on with their lives as if that event never happened but yes I do believe it catches up with them eventually in the form of illness. Wouldn't that be some form of post traumatic stress or something?

Probably. He could feel anxiety and panic attacks as he tries to suppress his feelings. If he is a psychopath though, he would not be able to comprehend this. Ted Bundy said, "What is one less person in the world" when asked if he felt guilt about killing all those women. These women had no value to him.

I get the feeling based on something I read about MTR crying a lot that maybe his anxiety is catching up to him.

I wonder how an innocent person acts in this situation--would they cry or scream out in innocence. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of wrongly accused people.

[Flowercb]

S. Peterson is at the very least a sociopath. I don't think MR fits into that category.

I was referring to S. Peterson's family standing by him not whether he is a sociopath or not. The comparison was strictly in regards to not wanting your family to reject you because of your crime and that if he doesn't admit guilt than they will stand by him.

[roseofsharon]

S. Peterson is at the very least a sociopath. I don't think MR fits into that category.

There are two psychiatric facilities with forensic wards -- one in St. Thomas and one in London governed under the auspices of St. Joseph's Health Care London. Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre is located midway between both of these facilities.

In a homicide case, the accused usually are admitted to the forensic ward for a few weeks to undergo a psychiatric assessment long before they go to trial.

I agree -- I don't think MR is a sociopath, but I think TLM is.

JMO

[misses]

It was a miracle that she was found - thanks to outstanding police work!

When my brother died a couple of years I went to the scene the next day and I have gone there every anniversary since. If a child of mine died tragically I would probably camp out at the scene for days!

Does anyone know if TM or RS been out to the site yet?

Do you mean since the crime? No I havnt heard of RS ever going there as of yet understandably.. Have no facts when JG been there though...:furious: -Yet

[misses]

I would like to believe that if he is feeling remorse that he will do the right thing and admit he committed the crime. If he did do it the police will probably have enough evidence right now to get a sucessful conviction and he is no better off. Except maybe his family will hold strong with him and believe he was wrongfully convicted. Look at S. Peterson.

Getting it off his chest will be the best thing for him and for Tori's family. If he doesn't admit the crime they will have to go through a needless, painful trial.

If he keeps his guilt to himself because he is ashamed of what his family or others might think, then eventually he will become physically ill. Not that he doesn't deserve to feel that way.
Now, who said MTR ISNT infact co-operating? ugh..:banghead:

[Justice07]

Apparently TLM wasn't as helpful to LE as her lawyer states she was. I heard from someone who knows one of the OPP that was in the vehicle/helicopter with her during the searches that she was leading them on a "wild goose chase", he also described her as (not his exact words) a cold heartless b**** who showed absolutely no remorse. Chances of her getting a plea bargain are slim to none IMO!

[sillybilly]

Silly question here ;)

Anybody have any input on what kind of tree that is?

[paris_paris]

Do you mean since the crime? No I havnt heard of RS ever going there as of yet understandably.. Have no facts when JG been there though...:furious: -Yet

misses, are you implying that JG has been to the site where Tori was found?

These pictures you speak of... do you ever intend to post them for other's here to review?

Is most of your information that you can't provide proof of based on emails from a mysterious person and conversations with psychics?

I've weeded out what you're trying to say, and I've weeded out what you're not saying.

Show some real facts... please.

[Flowercb]

Here is another article about Tori.

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1672607

[bleedingheart]

Apparently TLM wasn't as helpful to LE as her lawyer states she was. I heard from someone who knows one of the OPP that was in the vehicle/helicopter with her during the searches that she was leading them on a "wild goose chase", he also described her as (not his exact words) a cold heartless b**** who showed absolutely no remorse. Chances of her getting a plea bargain are slim to none IMO!
If TLM is indeed guilty of this crime, we as the people of Canada have to make sure a Plea Bargain does not happen.

[Turbododger]

Apparently TLM wasn't as helpful to LE as her lawyer states she was. I heard from someone who knows one of the OPP that was in the vehicle/helicopter with her during the searches that she was leading them on a "wild goose chase", he also described her as (not his exact words) a cold heartless b**** who showed absolutely no remorse. Chances of her getting a plea bargain are slim to none IMO!

I can see the cold heartless b***** being true. No conscience.

But, I have to disagree with the "wild goose chase" part. I know it seems that way to people because they were not able to find her, but you have to admit that the Profile she gave them, was VERY accurate.

Without that Profile, Tori would in all likelihood not have been found, for a very long time, if at all.

The similarities of the search locations to the recovery location are undeniable.

But what new information came to light, what new tip, to lead Det.-Sgt.Smyth to this new vicinity? Come on folks, there is more to this! :confused::waitasec:

Maybe TLM "remembered" something new.

[Turbododger]

It was, according to Julian Fantino, the province's top law enforcement officer, "...a Herculean task." The police, often subject to criticism by certain sectors of the general public, ought to be commended for the work they did.

As the hearse containing the remains of Victoria Stafford was driven from the dirt road where they were found, police officers stood at attention with accompanying salute. It was a poignant moment, a little girl's body, and a little girl, being silently dignified by those who had combed every inch of ground to find her.

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1672607

[antiquegirl]

I can see the cold heartless b***** being true. No conscience.

But, I have to disagree with the "wild goose chase" part. I know it seems that way to people because they were not able to find her, but you have to admit that the Profile she gave them, was VERY accurate.

Without that Profile, Tori would in all likelihood not be found.

The similarities of the search locations to the recovery location are undeniable.

But what new information came to light, what new tip, to lead Det.-Sgt.Smyth to this new vicinity? Come on folks, there is more to this! :confused::waitasec:

Maybe TLM "remembered" something new.

(underlined by me)

ITA. And this profile provided by her, plus the original security video on Fyfe, pretty much confirms not only her guilt, but an admission of it to LE.

As for the new info, I have no idea and wouldn't even begin to speculate. It could be anything and could have come from anywhere.

MOO

[Turbododger]

LE very specifically controlled the release of the information on the discovery. They had probably 24 hours to process, and I don't know what time the first "official" report was of the remains being found, but I am pretty sure it around 6 am ish on the Monday.

I mean, by the time the media was allowed access, the only thing that appeared left to do was remove Victoria. Maybe I am reading too much into all those rocks on the blue tarp, after all, if that is the case.

[misses]

misses, are you implying that JG has been to the site where Tori was found?

These pictures you speak of... do you ever intend to post them for other's here to review?

Is most of your information that you can't provide proof of based on emails from a mysterious person and conversations with psychics?

I've weeded out what you're trying to say, and I've weeded out what you're not saying.

Show some real facts... please.
No lol Paris Paris, as Ive sd a million times now here- *looks at the top of the page* yep websleuths..ok Im in the right place.. I wonder from time to time. LOL. No I do not believe in psychics. Read back Im not repeating it. Its getting too old and too insignifigant. PPl CLAIM to be psychic for reasons in these cases. I cannot post these pix, you are very welcome to go retrieve them yourself though, (the ones avail)they took me 10 hrs + a day studying them using diff lenses etc.. for weeks on end..Go to it . Ive mentiond how many times now how to do this. you cannot post thousand pix especially graphic as these. They wouldnt allow it Im sure.
Im not sure if or when SS -or I mean JG has been to the site, guess I should have said IMO but like Ive said - Whaddo I know??? :waitasec:
And yes I have the proof of my email May 26th from, go daddy my host of all my websites, wordpress, rogers,,, think Ill post it, then just so some of you "wise Guys" will shaddup and perhaps just take with a grain of salt, Im not kidding around here. Unlike people that play sick card games with LE resulting in a precious little girls life. Now THATS the concern here, believe it or not. Ill brb

[paris_paris]

Here is another article about Tori.

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1672607

"Today, Saturday, there will be a memorial service for the cute little eight-year-old. She went to school on Wednesday, April 8 with her Hanna Montana T-shirt and her purple "Bratz" bag. She was only eight folks, that's all."

[misses]

Im not going any further, I cant. I believe someone else should see the rest 1st.
Happy now? Dont worry cause this is the 3rd time here, and Im not doin it again. ud think idv learned already. Carry on, watever little lesson you were on. You certainly dnt see Im not talking through my hat, and Im done wasting my time. I should be working anyway.

[Turbododger]

Okay, I have being looking for other video reports tonight, for recovery scene shots. While doing this, I have come across a shocking interview with LE, that I had not seen before. It discusses more people being charged in this case.

On other charges being laid:

(This is verbatim from the interviewer, CBC's Stephaine Matteis and LE)

Stephanie: "Normally this would be considered a huge break in a 1st degree murder investigation, but even identifying the remains of the missing 8 year old girl, hasn't satsified police. This case is not over, they say."

Stephanie asks unidentified LE: "Is anyone else under investigation, or will there be any other charges laid?"

LE: "I am not going to speak to that at all, I am not going to rule ANY possibility out."

Comment by Me: Okay, this is a total switch from their stance that they have the right 2 people and don't anticipate anybody else being charged. WTH?

I know Rodney had said in his presser at Victoria Park a comment regarding other people.

Well, Stephanie Matteis catches him in this video saying "ANYBODY that is responsible for what has happened, make sure they get their dues".

Stephanie Matteis also quotes a source as saying the "Rafferty and his former lawyer didn't get along."

Here is the link for the video, it is the one from CBC titled "Victoria Stafford's remains identified".

Victoria Stafford's remains identified on Yahoo! Video

[paris_paris]

misses, if you had posted that in the beginning, I would have known what you were talking about.

You do know that "hamburgerhill" isn't new to us? He has been sleuthed by a number of us.

I also read your blogs, but it was many weeks ago.

I still don't see anything relevant in what you posted (then deleted), other than it's a little freaky, but no worse than what was posted on the YouTube videos under other user names.

[girl_next_door]

Apparently TLM wasn't as helpful to LE as her lawyer states she was. I heard from someone who knows one of the OPP that was in the vehicle/helicopter with her during the searches that she was leading them on a "wild goose chase", he also described her as (not his exact words) a cold heartless b**** who showed absolutely no remorse. Chances of her getting a plea bargain are slim to none IMO!

Did the officer state she wasn't helpful before or after the remains were found? I can see them thinking it was a wild goose chase until they actually found the remains in a location that fit her description.

Cold hearted biatch - I can believe. Wow, she doesn't even know how to ACT nice.

[cleo612]

Pure Speculation and Surmise:

I think he was probably surprised that TLM pulled it off. Maybe they were just sleeping together and he was telling her fantasies and she was trying to help him fulfill his fantasies(?)...If the boy child can ID these two as the two who tried to abduct him, that would make for interesting speculation. I am sure LE has gone back to see if they can see TLM in video before this. I am starting to think that TLM had some personal vendetta against TM (that was maybe even sexual in nature with TM's boyfriend or some other scenario when maybe TLM needed cash or was in a bad way - like she may have offered herself to them or something and was turned down or it didn't end up with her getting what she was after (cash, drugs)) and that she intentionally took "this" child and not that she was just a child they sought out for sexual assaultation.

And, Kamille, I have also thought that maybe she(VEMS) was just a handful for them and that they killed her because they couldn't trust her to not tell on them and identify them...or that once they did whatever, they had no way to return her without repercussions.

Bolded by me..

What boy child? I do not recall hearing about a boy child having an abduction attempt made against him. Was this something recently released? Where did this information come from?

[Kittymama]

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall in that helicopter! And in MTR's jail cell. And the lawyer's office--well, let's just say there are all kinds of places I'd like to be a fly on the wall.

I'm surprised by this reluctance by LE to say that they have the only two people responsible. They're not giving enough info to really consider a possibility, but the fact they're not outright saying there are no more (as they were for awhile) is strange to me.

I read a rumour on FB, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it here. Anyone?

[ChaChaCha]

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall in that helicopter! And in MTR's jail cell. And the lawyer's office--well, let's just say there are all kinds of places I'd like to be a fly on the wall.

I'm surprised by this reluctance by LE to say that they have the only two people responsible. They're not giving enough info to really consider a possibility, but the fact they're not outright saying there are no more (as they were for awhile) is strange to me.

I read a rumour on FB, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it here. Anyone?

If you say the B word I will eat my shorts..... yummy!

[crazyladi]

I have heard from a source give or take what you want.... That TM is way more involved than what is being said. I guess time will only tell.

I too have been way to caught up in this case that it has given me anxiety about my own daughter disapearing, that is why I dont come on as much but I still want to be here when the news comes out and the verdict is in.

I was coming home down the 401 and passed by guelph and as I looked across all the land around the areas, if I was alone I would have cried. The fact that a poor helpless child was left to die, alone. Her remains were there the whole time and its sad although she was dead it was as if we let her down by taking so long to find her. I couldnt imagine that being my child. I couldnt imagine the fear on her face when it came to that moment. She was young and may not have known even when it was happening. All i can hope for is that it was quick and painless.

She has really taken a piece of my heart and I never even knew her. Many kids have gone missing but for some reason Tori had an effect on me like no other. It made me think about life different, think about how precious time is and to spend as much as we can with out children while they are still here.

I am in utter discust over the two accused and I really hope to God there is no plea bargin that would be devistating to everyone, but if it does happen they will both pay in the end.. They will be haunted by all of this and will have to look over their shoulders all the time and evertime they here the name Tori or victoria thoughout there lives it will be a constant reminder of what they have done. God will have justice in the end. That I can guarantee.

[ChaChaCha]

I have heard from a source give or take what you want.... That TM is way more involved than what is being said. I guess time will only tell.

I too have been way to caught up in this case that it has given me anxiety about my own daughter disapearing, that is why I dont come on as much but I still want to be here when the news comes out and the verdict is in.

I was coming home down the 401 and passed by guelph and as I looked across all the land around the areas, if I was alone I would have cried. The fact that a poor helpless child was left to die, alone. Her remains were there the whole time and its sad although she was dead it was as if we let her down by taking so long to find her. I couldnt imagine that being my child. I couldnt imagine the fear on her face when it came to that moment. She was young and may not have known even when it was happening. All i can hope for is that it was quick and painless.

She has really taken a piece of my heart and I never even knew her. Many kids have gone missing but for some reason Tori had an effect on me like no other. It made me think about life different, think about how precious time is and to spend as much as we can with out children while they are still here.

I am in utter discust over the two accused and I really hope to God there is no plea bargin that would be devistating to everyone, but if it does happen they will both pay in the end.. They will be haunted by all of this and will have to look over their shoulders all the time and evertime they here the name Tori or victoria thoughout there lives it will be a constant reminder of what they have done. God will have justice in the end. That I can guarantee.\

I have MISSED YOU!

Besides, I heard from a source that there is a special place in the bowels of hell being readied now ....

[Kittymama]

If you say the B word I will eat my shorts..... yummy!


No, nothing about gangs here (I think that's what you're referring to, anyway).

And thanks, Pearseha--I wasn't sure if it was allowed since this isn't a rumour thread. But what else have we got, really?

This girl Kayla something-or-other claims that she knows TLM, and that she spoke to her on the phone (since the arrest, I'm assuming). She wrote that TLM claims that the reason she did what she did was that MTR strangled (she said strangled, but I would put it as "choked") her and forced her to do it.

This Kayla girl said that she didn't believe it, but that that's what TLM is saying.

Now, this rumour has a bunch of problems, the first being that it seems unlikely that TLM gets time in jail to chat with her buddies on the phone. The second problem is that she had to be alone to abduct Tori, so she could have run and called the police, telling them what MTR had threatened her with.

So I'm not saying there's any truth to it at all, but even if there's a tiny grain, I find it interesting. The "tiny grain" I'm referring to could be that TLM is indeed going to go this way during the trial, portraying herself as the poor, abused victim who was helpless against MTR's violence.

[Alison]

Who or what is hamburger hill in regards to this case?

[jhulford]

JMO, but I would not be remotely suprised if more people were arrested in this case. Misses, could you zip up your photos and post them somewhere? i for one would love to see what you've got. :)

[ChaChaCha]

No, nothing about gangs here (I think that's what you're referring to, anyway).

And thanks, Pearseha--I wasn't sure if it was allowed since this isn't a rumour thread. But what else have we got, really?

This girl Kayla something-or-other claims that she knows TLM, and that she spoke to her on the phone (since the arrest, I'm assuming). She wrote that TLM claims that the reason she did what she did was that MTR strangled (she said strangled, but I would put it as "choked") her and forced her to do it.

This Kayla girl said that she didn't believe it, but that that's what TLM is saying.

Now, this rumour has a bunch of problems, the first being that it seems unlikely that TLM gets time in jail to chat with her buddies on the phone. The second problem is that she had to be alone to abduct Tori, so she could have run and called the police, telling them what MTR had threatened her with.

So I'm not saying there's any truth to it at all, but even if there's a tiny grain, I find it interesting. The "tiny grain" I'm referring to could be that TLM is indeed going to go this way during the trial, portraying herself as the poor, abused victim who was helpless against MTR's violence.

Not the chewy treat I was expecting, but very good anyways...

Poor, poor pitiful T....

[nonfictionrocks]

I have heard from a source give or take what you want.... That TM is way more involved than what is being said. I guess time will only tell.

I too have been way to caught up in this case that it has given me anxiety about my own daughter disapearing, that is why I dont come on as much but I still want to be here when the news comes out and the verdict is in.

I was coming home down the 401 and passed by guelph and as I looked across all the land around the areas, if I was alone I would have cried. The fact that a poor helpless child was left to die, alone. Her remains were there the whole time and its sad although she was dead it was as if we let her down by taking so long to find her. I couldnt imagine that being my child. I couldnt imagine the fear on her face when it came to that moment. She was young and may not have known even when it was happening. All i can hope for is that it was quick and painless.

She has really taken a piece of my heart and I never even knew her. Many kids have gone missing but for some reason Tori had an effect on me like no other. It made me think about life different, think about how precious time is and to spend as much as we can with out children while they are still here.

I am in utter discust over the two accused and I really hope to God there is no plea bargin that would be devistating to everyone, but if it does happen they will both pay in the end.. They will be haunted by all of this and will have to look over their shoulders all the time and evertime they here the name Tori or victoria thoughout there lives it will be a constant reminder of what they have done. God will have justice in the end. That I can guarantee.


Since sources are being unleased - Crazyladi - what did your's have to say about TM?

[misses]

yes I can mail them yes, also theres a place online many are still out there. Thanks for asking humanly lol. That was easy eh?? And yes there will be lets say a turn of events yes. Im not saying anything again or getn locked up till trial to keep quiet cuz sum person piszs me off lol.

[Alison]

Misses could you point me in the direction where I could find these pictures online?

[Alison]

Just a heads up stuff on here is once again being linked to FB....

[cleo612]

What pictures are being referred to here? I either missed something that was posted previously, or it was deleted before I had a chance to see the post wherein these pictures were mentioned.

[Alison]

What pictures are being referred to here? I either missed something that was posted previously, or it was deleted before I had a chance to see the post wherein these pictures were mentioned.

I was speaking of the pictures Misses keeps reffering to, I also just missed out on the email she posted as well.

[cleo612]

I was speaking of the pictures Misses keeps reffering to, I also just missed out on the email she posted as well.


I missed out on those emails, as well.

A day late and a dollar short, it seems.

[paris_paris]

Just a heads up stuff on here is once again being linked to FB....

All I saw linked was a reference to the pictures of the memorial set up at the discovery site. I didn't see anything wrong with it. Unless there's something else. I've been banned from a few of those groups. lol

misses, I read some of your blogs in April. Still have it bookmarked, but it was disabled long ago. Your spelling was much better then.

misses has talked about pictures with green dots in them. I'm not sure if she means the photos that had the "orbs" in them, or something else.

Not sure what to make of the Kayla stuff. She had made a post on her account, and got sucked into recorded conversations, and was probably prompted to speak with TLM. I hope the instigator in that is dealt with.

[Hello_Kitty]

Also let me say now, how terribly rude THAT was of you as I dont believe you and I EVER talked you dont know me what so ever, your like the fat bully in the school yard that needs to agree with evryone to make friends, do you act like that in your social life? TSK tsk shame on you. I came in here to get help, and TO help. where you get the gall to even come out with that towards me shows me your not very sane either as I dont even know you! Heavens sake! Whats with this world ughhh.

Misses, does this need to be public? There is private messaging here for a reason. If you feel someone has been rude, there are the mods or you could discuss in private. It's not atall interesting reading this.

On another note, I think the reason I am mostly frustrated with your posts is that you claim to have more knowledge of this crime than we do by making these sensational claims, but then you don't follow up and post what you know and why, it's very frustrating, it's like you're playing cliffhanger with us or something.

[Alison]

All I saw linked was a reference to the pictures of the memorial set up at the discovery site. I didn't see anything wrong with it. Unless there's something else. I've been banned from a few of those groups. lol

misses, I read some of your blogs in April. Still have it bookmarked, but it was disabled long ago. Your spelling was much better then.

Not sure what to make of the Kayla stuff. She had made a post on her account, and got sucked into recorded conversations, and was probably prompted to speak with TLM. I hope the instigator in that is dealt with.

It was nothing of importance that was linked over but I just wanted people to know they may want to be careful with what they put up as this is open to the public to see and is being linked over.

[Turbododger]

Well, the thread is deteriorating rapidly. I think there is an ignore poster button, I guess I am going to have to find it. I like to give everyone the benefit, but come on. I think we have lost some valuable sleuthers.....

Thanks, to all those WS members who are doing a great job chipping away at the layers. I, for one, appreciate it.

Tomorrow is a new day. 'night

[cleo612]

Turbo, this is likely a stupid question to which I should probably already know the answer, however, I will ask it regardless.

Where IS the ignore button?

I have wanted on more than one occasion to utilize such a feature while perusing some of these pages here.

[Kittymama]

Turbo, this is likely a stupid question to which I should probably already know the answer, however, I will ask it regardless.

Where IS the ignore button?

I have wanted on more than one occasion to utilize such a feature while perusing some of these pages here.

Me too! I don't know where it is, either!

EDIT: Ah, much better!

[brokenhearted]

Re: More Arrests Possiblity

Not sure when that link (that I think Turbo posted?) was recorded. If it was after they had gathered all the evidence from the scene or not?
Anyway....was just kind of wondering if more were involved...why wouldn't this come out in the confession??
Thoughts anyone?

[ChaChaCha]

Turbo, this is likely a stupid question to which I should probably already know the answer, however, I will ask it regardless.

Where IS the ignore button?

I have wanted on more than one occasion to utilize such a feature while perusing some of these pages here.

Pssst.... It's on the left hand side of your profile, about half way down...edit ignore list......

not that I use it of course:blowkiss:

[Turbododger]

Turbo, this is likely a stupid question to which I should probably already know the answer, however, I will ask it regardless.

Where IS the ignore button?

I have wanted on more than one occasion to utilize such a feature while perusing some of these pages here.

Okay, go to edit your profile. Setting Options > Edit Ignore List

Add the Member

Hope this helps :)

[jhulford]

Misses, you need to clear out your mailbox so I can PM you. :)

[misses]

ohhhh! Paris Paris you too are thinking of that ideagirl from niagara that is not me.. I REPEAT LMAO that is not me... Mine was Where's Victoria Stafford. I deleted last day I got those emails. Shes got all tha wonky psychic stuff on the go, talkin thru her speakers etc. no mine i just posted news clips for ppl to refer to. Anyhow Im off to bed will get to the mail tomorrow and get those pix out.

[LimeCola]

It was a miracle that she was found - thanks to outstanding police work!

When my brother died a couple of years I went to the scene the next day and I have gone there every anniversary since. If a child of mine died tragically I would probably camp out at the scene for days!

Does anyone know if TM or RS been out to the site yet?

I am sorry to hear about your brother. My cousin was murdered and left in an open area in a remote location. I know vaguely where the scene is located (and I'm sure could get the exact details from the Detectives), but I haven't been able to go there yet. I'm just not ready to feel whatever I might feel there. You must be a very strong person.

[Kittymama]

I have heard from a source give or take what you want.... That TM is way more involved than what is being said. I guess time will only tell.

Crazyladi, I'm curious about this. Are you able to tell us anything about the source, such as how s/he might have come to hear this information? I know there was a post on the rumour thread awhile ago, saying that LE knew she was involved, but couldn't prove it. Did your source say anything about what the involvement might be?

I went from suspecting TM (before the arrests) to thinking maybe she had something to do with it...but I no longer know what to make of it. It's become obvious to me that she loved her daughter and wouldn't have done anything intentionally. I have to qualify that by saying that I think her lifestyle put her children at risk, however. I hesitate to say anymore than that because I feel a deep sympathy for TM (and the rest of the family, of course) over the loss of her beautiful little girl.

*snip*

She has really taken a piece of my heart and I never even knew her. Many kids have gone missing but for some reason Tori had an effect on me like no other.

I feel the same way. I don't even have children of my own, but there was just something about VS that drew a lot of people in, I think. I don't want any children to go missing or be murdered, but in VS's case I keep thinking, "Not her..." and I don't know why, because I never knew her. Oh, how I wish it could have been different. I wish I had never heard of her, not because I don't care, but because if I hadn't heard of her it would probably mean that she was safe and at home with her family, celebrating her 9th birthday and playing with her friends.

[sillybilly]

Maybe I am reading too much into all those rocks on the blue tarp, after all, if that is the case.

Just catching up a bit here Turbo, so this may have been addressed already. I noticed in one of the pics before the blue and white tarps were in place in their ultimate position that there were several rocks and boulders to the left of the tree (just kind of on the outside of the circle of earth at the base of the tree). They appear to be the rocks/boulders that ended up on the blue tarp. I now suspect they were just moved out of the way to allow the forensics people more room to do their job, and placed on the blue tarp because they could potentially have some type of forensics value due to their close proximity to the remains.

[AltaBorn]

If they didn't plan to kill her after the assault, what did they plan to do let her go home and tell her parents? I don't understand why you think they didn't plan to kill her.

I have heard of the date rape drug. I believe that if your given this you don't remember what happens to you during this time.

For those that think she'd "go home and tell her parents", not if she couldn't remember anything.

Just an idea.

[AltaBorn]

My own silly little thoughts are that it wasnt supposed to end this way either. Mistakes were made, and this was the end result. My thoughts are there was some kind of plan, that did not fall through like it was supposed to. -Certain parties were infact urged to end this, urged to move on but something entirely different happened, somehow along the line. I believe TLM lost her cool, did something "in the moment" and that was that and they were never able to carry out their orders.. or something simular but you see what I'm saying. But what do I know? JMO of coarse.

I think a lot of things aren't just your opinion but that you know - and am intrigued to know more.....

[brokenhearted]

Kittymama & Crazyladi
I can't count how many feel the same, myself included. "Something about her" may just be that she was sent down from the Heavens to change things and then called back home.
I believe this little girl was indeed a gift to this world. As crazy and awful as what has happened, it was all for a reason. The sacrificial lamb so to speak.
It shouldn't need to come to that, but sadly it has :(

[stellarkix]

If she was indeed given some sort of drug to make her lose conciousness, I highly doubt they were planning on bringing her back... I mean even if she was drugged, they wouldn't do what they were going to do with her, and drop her back on her doorstep. I would think that even if that did happen, if TM had any sense, I would hope that she would have called the police... They would probably do some sort of examination to make sure that she hadn't been raped..abused.. etc.. And there would be traces of MTR and TLM's DNA either on her or her clothing, etc... I believe that this was either

A) An abduction/murder plan the whole time

or

B) A "ransom" or some kind of "Hey we're not kidding around" type thing gone wrong...


Goodnight fellow sleuthers. I should get to bed. Lately I've been spending more time on WS, than with the hubby! lol

I would just like to say how truly great you all are. You are all very impressive with your sleuthing skills :) Goodnight!


MOO

[Guelphite]

I have heard of the date rape drug. I believe that if your given this you don't remember what happens to you during this time.

For those that think she'd "go home and tell her parents", not if she couldn't remember anything.

Just an idea.

It's a valid idea and has worked before as in the example of "Jane Doe" in the B/H case.

Jane befriended Karla at the vet clinic where Karla worked and was later groomed and lured to the house as a gift to Paul from Karla. It was a surprise for him.

Jane Doe was raped twice by the two while unconscious. Karla administered the drugs. During one of the rapes Jane Doe appeared to stop breathing and the couple called an ambulance. Fortunately, Jane recovered so they canceled the ambulance. LE had the evidence of this call. Jane went home the next morning and was very ill, she thought she had the flu--never even guessing about the rape/assault.

In fact, she was introduced to Paul the next morning and had no memory of being introduced to him the night before--let alone that he had brutally raped her while unconscious. It was months later LE found the videotape of the assault on her and brought it to her and her mother's attention. (This is the one tape LE had found in the B/H home--the others had been found by Bernardo's lawyer who hid them for 16 months.) Karla is clearly seen in the tape holding the drug-soaked cloth over Jane's face.

Unfortunately, by the time the tape was brought forward and understood for what it was, (Karla had been shown it earlier but claimed she couldn't remember it) Karla had been given "blanket immunity."

BTW, this was about 6 months after they had done the same to Karla's sister who died as a consequence of the drugging and assault. The public was never told the identity of Jane Doe but she was said by reporters to have looked like Tammy Homolka.

Jane Doe was said to have suffered sever psychological damage as a consequence. I hope and pray she was able to overcome the abuse and betrayal of a supposed friend she had previously looked up to.

So yes, drugs have successfully been utilized for sexual crimes without the victim's knowledge.

[CuriousJorge]

I can see the cold heartless b***** being true. No conscience.

But, I have to disagree with the "wild goose chase" part. I know it seems that way to people because they were not able to find her, but you have to admit that the Profile she gave them, was VERY accurate.

Without that Profile, Tori would in all likelihood not have been found, for a very long time, if at all.

The similarities of the search locations to the recovery location are undeniable.

But what new information came to light, what new tip, to lead Det.-Sgt.Smyth to this new vicinity? Come on folks, there is more to this! :confused::waitasec:

Maybe TLM "remembered" something new.

I've pretty much just caught up (2 more pages) but something in your post Turbo makes me want to respond. I think TLM has tried to help LE all along since her arrest on charges against the abduction.

I know there have been lotsa times when I'm out travelling with DH and I don't pay much attention to direction when he knows where we're going. I think also being as she wasn't familiar with any of these towns and locations, (possible she never travelled much; no car or friends with cars) didn't pay too much attention to where they were going. Some have posted something about #6 being of significance. She may have remembered this as possibly in conversation with MR saying something to the effect of "I know a good spot along #6 where we use to hang out in high school".

Is it possible MR has been presented with evidence and knows his goose is cooked and is now speaking??:waitasec: Or could it be that he gave his last lawyer info on location which was just passed on to LE? MH has a heart and wanted to see TS have a proper burial. Could I be right on this? MH is not obligated to keep MRs statements private is he? Maybe this is why MH has given up the case. Told MR "find yourself a new lawyer, I can't handle this case, too much info". :waitasec::waitasec:

My feeling is is that MR/TLM put a few rocks alongside TS to somewhat conseal her body under the tree. A blue tarp would just attract passerbys and I believe they did not want her to be found. I think the tarp was put out to place evidence on or under it. It looks like they made a make shift tent against the tree, over her remains to sheild from cameras (helicopter media). I'm wondering if the green something seen in the pics could possibly be a wine bottle or pop bottle. Which could mean that possibly this area was known to young people.

The other thing some have questioned about the people in the house close to the site, not noticing a car. I don't think it would be uncommon for vehicle travelling on these roads and what would raise their suspision? Makes me wonder if MR was familiar with this area and knew mennonites used this lane. This being the reason for him spray painting his car black (paint and cleaning supplies bought at HD). :waitasec:Usually if mennonites do have vehicles, more often than not, they are black in colour. I'm really starting to believe this whole thing was premeditate at least for a few days in advance, and there was no unintentional mistakes/accidents made (to kill or not to kill). I still feel like JG is involved in this in a round about way(drug connection). I do not think he played any role in TS's adbuction, he just ticked off the wrong people...CM/TLM. There's been a rumour that TM and JG are getting married in the fall. I think if I was TM, I'd be waiting to find out what comes out at the trial.:eek:

So so very sad. Breaks everyone heart also to think of the what ifs in TM's and RS's situation. Ex. RS, if only I'd been there more, TM, what if I hadn't met CM/TLM? Nite all!!

[sillybilly]

ohhhh! Paris Paris you too are thinking of that ideagirl from niagara that is not me.. I REPEAT LMAO that is not me... Mine was Where's Victoria Stafford. I deleted last day I got those emails. Shes got all tha wonky psychic stuff on the go, talkin thru her speakers etc. no mine i just posted news clips for ppl to refer to. Anyhow Im off to bed will get to the mail tomorrow and get those pix out.

I tried to send you a note also misses, but your mail was full. I would appreciate the pix too, or at least a HUGE hint on where they can be found. :)

Thanks

[CuriousJorge]

JMO!!!! I have a very strong feeling, as I mentioned above that JG is connected. TM isn't talking to media in public yet because she's afraid of "the questions she will be faced with and will have to lie about". Yes I do feel deeply hurt for anyone who was involved in TS's life, as short as it was, and the anguish they must be going thru, even with the discovery of her remains, there will never be closure. She will never be present on this earth again for those who so dearly loved her. Never again to hug her, to kiss her, talk to her, play with her, laugh with her, argue with her, teach her, but most important to protect her. I feel this is one of the reasons TM will not go public. She'd have too many questions as to why she didn't protect TS in regards to her lifestyle choices. I feel it was "those" choices that brought Tori's little life to an abrupt cruel end. JMO!! Of all people who will endure the most pain will be DS, RS and TM.

My heart breaks the most for Daryn! The guilt this little man must feel. All the counselling and people telling him it's not his fault, will not erase that wound he will carry his entire life. God Bless this lil guy and keep him strong.

Lil Angel Tori, if you're able, let your little brother "know" it's not his fault. He was carrying out his good deeds and these monsters are to blame and will be held accountable. They will pay for the dastardly deed they have committed against you, and all the suffering they have caused to your loved ones. Please Tori, show your brother, he needs this from you in his time of sorrow and heartbreak.

[flipflop]

All I saw linked was a reference to the pictures of the memorial set up at the discovery site. I didn't see anything wrong with it. Unless there's something else. I've been banned from a few of those groups. lol

misses, I read some of your blogs in April. Still have it bookmarked, but it was disabled long ago. Your spelling was much better then.

misses has talked about pictures with green dots in them. I'm not sure if she means the photos that had the "orbs" in them, or something else.

Not sure what to make of the Kayla stuff. She had made a post on her account, and got sucked into recorded conversations, and was probably prompted to speak with TLM. I hope the instigator in that is dealt with.

What FB group were the recovery pics linked to? Who linked them?

[margaret_diane]

Probably. He could feel anxiety and panic attacks as he tries to suppress his feelings. If he is a psychopath though, he would not be able to comprehend this. Ted Bundy said, "What is one less person in the world" when asked if he felt guilt about killing all those women. These women had no value to him.

I get the feeling based on something I read about MTR crying a lot that maybe his anxiety is catching up to him.

I wonder how an innocent person acts in this situation--would they cry or scream out in innocence. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of wrongly accused people.

on dicovery tv the other night they dis a show on innoncent people accused of murder and their reactions. They talked about Michael Crowe (accused of murdering his sister at age 14). He denied his guilt under interrogation for hours then finally confessed. He was screaming and crying and confused. He asked the cop what he wanted him to say and made things up as he went along. He was charges but DNA later cleared him.

[Flowercb]

on dicovery tv the other night they dis a show on innoncent people accused of murder and their reactions. They talked about Michael Crowe (accused of murdering his sister at age 14). He denied his guilt under interrogation for hours then finally confessed. He was screaming and crying and confused. He asked the cop what he wanted him to say and made things up as he went along. He was charges but DNA later cleared him.

Wow I wonder if they will repeat the show. Thanks Margaret.

[Flowercb]

Out of curiosity does anyone know the status of Carol McClintic? I know that she had only a short time left to live because of her cancer.

[paris_paris]

What FB group were the recovery pics linked to? Who linked them?

They weren't actually "linked". Somebody mentioned on one of the walls that there were pictures of the memorial set up at the end of the laneway on thread 22 of this site.

misses old blog was on WordPress. I only remember media links being posted on it, and it was disabled a long time ago. I just happened to have an old bookmark to the site. It was jetsgirlnews I think.

[margaret_diane]

No lol Paris Paris, as Ive sd a million times now here- *looks at the top of the page* yep websleuths..ok Im in the right place.. I wonder from time to time. LOL. No I do not believe in psychics. Read back Im not repeating it. Its getting too old and too insignifigant. PPl CLAIM to be psychic for reasons in these cases. I cannot post these pix, you are very welcome to go retrieve them yourself though, (the ones avail)they took me 10 hrs + a day studying them using diff lenses etc.. for weeks on end..Go to it . Ive mentiond how many times now how to do this. you cannot post thousand pix especially graphic as these. They wouldnt allow it Im sure.
Im not sure if or when SS -or I mean JG has been to the site, guess I should have said IMO but like Ive said - Whaddo I know??? :waitasec:
And yes I have the proof of my email May 26th from, go daddy my host of all my websites, wordpress, rogers,,, think Ill post it, then just so some of you "wise Guys" will shaddup and perhaps just take with a grain of salt, Im not kidding around here. Unlike people that play sick card games with LE resulting in a precious little girls life. Now THATS the concern here, believe it or not. Ill brb

I think I've missed the post(s) wherein you've provided direction on how to find these pictures you're talking about -- if you wouldn't mind pls repeating the basic instructions so that I too might locate and engage in meaningful discussion with yourself and others about this issue I would greatly appreciate it. I THINK you might be suggesting that we look up SS pictures (whats left of these)?? Please advise.

[brighidin]

S. Peterson is at the very least a sociopath. I don't think MR fits into that category.

On what basis are you making this diagnosis of MR?

[jaycee]

I feel the same way. I don't even have children of my own, but there was just something about VS that drew a lot of people in, I think. I don't want any children to go missing or be murdered, but in VS's case I keep thinking, "Not her..." and I don't know why, because I never knew her. Oh, how I wish it could have been different. I wish I had never heard of her, not because I don't care, but because if I hadn't heard of her it would probably mean that she was safe and at home with her family, celebrating her 9th birthday and playing with her friends.I agree and feel it too. Perhaps she was an angel amongst us for a purpose.

[Flowercb]

On what basis are you making this diagnosis of MR?

Exactly, how can you tell whether he is mentally ill (sociopath or whatever)?

[Turbododger]

Just catching up a bit here Turbo, so this may have been addressed already. I noticed in one of the pics before the blue and white tarps were in place in their ultimate position that there were several rocks and boulders to the left of the tree (just kind of on the outside of the circle of earth at the base of the tree). They appear to be the rocks/boulders that ended up on the blue tarp. I now suspect they were just moved out of the way to allow the forensics people more room to do their job, and placed on the blue tarp because they could potentially have some type of forensics value due to their close proximity to the remains.

Silly, that's a great observation.

Can you post the before and after picture together?

[crazyladi]

\

I have MISSED YOU!

Besides, I heard from a source that there is a special place in the bowels of hell being readied now ....

I have missed you too :) I wish that I could see their faces when they hit that place in the bowels of hell!!!!

Crazyladi, I'm curious about this. Are you able to tell us anything about the source, such as how s/he might have come to hear this information? I know there was a post on the rumour thread awhile ago, saying that LE knew she was involved, but couldn't prove it. Did your source say anything about what the involvement might be?

I went from suspecting TM (before the arrests) to thinking maybe she had something to do with it...but I no longer know what to make of it. It's become obvious to me that she loved her daughter and wouldn't have done anything intentionally. I have to qualify that by saying that I think her lifestyle put her children at risk, however. I hesitate to say anymore than that because I feel a deep sympathy for TM (and the rest of the family, of course) over the loss of her beautiful little girl.



My friend knows a women who is married to someone involved in the case. Prosecution, district attorney, something like that.. I am not sure which it is I just know someone who is involved in the case... She couldnt say much all she said to my friend is that "Tara is more involved and knows more than what is being said right now" She couldnt elaborate on it that is all she said. I wish i knew more I really do but thats it...

This whole tragedy happened because of OXY... I still think that company should be held responsible as well.. Everyone involved in this case, TM, JG, RS, CM, TLM, MR all of them were users.. All of them were connected in different ways. RS knew the neighbours that called the police on TLM, they all look like major dope heads IMO. It is a sad story with a tragic ending that should never have happened.

The only two I truly feel bad for is The grandmother and Rodney. The grandmother tried to help these children the best way she could, and rodney no matter how bad of a father he was to her before, tried to get his like together months before her disapearence and now he is doing so much more in her memory. BUT where is TARA? What is she doing? Maybe I am still not happy with her behaviour and I really dont want to bash her I really dont because I am sure losing a child in this way would be the most devastating thing and everyone needs to grieve but I still cant help it, where is she, what has she done? I dont think it was just the drug use that she was trying to hide (hense all the lies) I really do think there is a bunch more, and maybe we will never know......

again everyone JMHO

[margaret_diane]

See this is the kind of stuff that makes me WISH that I had some kind of intimate involvement in the case so that I would KNOW what their theories are, and what the heck is going ON!? I believe in LE, and I think they've done a wonderful job thus far with the case -- I can only imagine the stress those officers feel, likely knowing so much more than they could ever share with anyone for fear of jeapordizing case integrity!!

I wish that I were able to know more, so that I would be able to DO mor! To HELP in some small way!! I'd like to be able to peice things together at the very least in order to fry the SOBS responsible == and to bring justice to Tori and her loved ones....

`I hate this helpless feeling...

[Anothermom]

I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

Off subject: My mother is an Oxy addict. She was given this, 10 milligrams, twice a day, by her pain management doctor, glorified-licensed drug dealer. Anyway, that was five or six years ago. She now takes around 40 or 50 milligrams, three or four times a day. She is extremely thin. She has aged about twenty years. She slurs her words, she says things that don't make sense, and she is only worried about making sure she has a new prescription, a way to get it, and that she takes it. When it starts getting close to her dose time, she is dizzy, sweating, shaking...it's totally crazy. She is a Type I diabetic and has over-insulinated herself several times and has actually taken the wrong insulin on different occasions. I talked about suing the doctor that gave her the medication, but she signed a full release stating she knew what she was taking and the consequences. Anyway, this will be how I remember my mother after she is gone, which is totally opposite of the woman I knew before. And more than likely, this drug will probably take at least ten years off her life. It is a very sad thing. So I really can't understand why someone would voluntarily take this drug.

[margaret_diane]

I wonder when he reflects back in 20 years... how Daryn will remember his parents and step parent(s?)...?? I wonder what his memories will be, and what sort of man he will become?? I cannot imagine this child's daily anguish!

[Kamille]

I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

Off subject: My mother is an Oxy addict. She was given this, 10 milligrams, twice a day, by her pain management doctor, glorified-licensed drug dealer. Anyway, that was five or six years ago. She now takes around 40 or 50 milligrams, three or four times a day. She is extremely thin. She has aged about twenty years. She slurs her words, she says things that don't make sense, and she is only worried about making sure she has a new prescription, a way to get it, and that she takes it. When it starts getting close to her dose time, she is dizzy, sweating, shaking...it's totally crazy. She is a Type I diabetic and has over-insulinated herself several times and has actually taken the wrong insulin on different occasions. I talked about suing the doctor that gave her the medication, but she signed a full release stating she knew what she was taking and the consequences. Anyway, this will be how I remember my mother after she is gone, which is totally opposite of the woman I knew before. And more than likely, this drug will probably take at least ten years off her life. It is a very sad thing. So I really can't understand why someone would voluntarily take this drug.

A lot of things have made me cry during this sad saga and you can add this post to the list. My sympathy to you Anothermom and thank you for sharing your story. :cry:

[Anothermom]

On what basis are you making this diagnosis of MR?

Just by observation. He cared enough, that he didn't want to show his face, either from embarrassment or identification, what have you. As we can tell from other psychopaths, sociopaths -- Casey Anthony, Ted Bundy, S. Peterson, Drew Peterson, just some examples that come to mind -- they don't mind having their faces plastered all over the news, they smile for the cameras, show no remorse, revel in the attention. MR at least seemed to show some emotion, whether it is fake, as the crying in court that he didn't do it (which that's what my son does when he gets in trouble, cries and cries that he didn't do it, which lets me know he did) or it is real. Also, this crime was so not well thought out. I mean, the taking her and dumping her in Mt. Forest could have been a spur-of-the-moment, what places do I know that are secluded, type of reaction. The visibility in all of the locations they were seen.

I really think that TM should have known that was TLM in the very beginning, the second she saw the tape, as well as TLM's mother should have known. I mean, the neighbors figured it was her. As for that making any difference, it probably wouldn't have.

[crazyladi]

[QUOTE=Anothermom;3988714]I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

I dont think it was ever made clear to her whereabouts at that time and why she didnt pick them up. I thought that she was unemployed, and heard that she was walking her dog or she could have been high or at the methedone clinic. Not sure really. She never really made it clear and if she said anything her story changed so many times it confused everyone. Maybe someone can remember but I remember it not being clear.

I can tell you one thing, I have never had a chance to walk my daughter to school because she goes to the before and afterschool program but if I was unemployed or even capable of picking up my child from school I would make it happen. It is your priority as a parent. When drugs are involved you lose all sense of what is going on around you. Daryn and Tori were probably very close because of what was going on around them. They could have been scared, they saw alot I am sure which is why they were so close. Tara stated that her drug use didnt effect her as a parent and that is how far out of it she is. She is an addict they dont care about anything around them but getting their next fix. I dont even want to begin to know what illegal activity these children have seen or the crazy weirdos that have walked in their house at any given time.

[Kamille]

[QUOTE=Anothermom;3988714]I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

I dont think it was ever made clear to her whereabouts at that time and why she didnt pick them up. I thought that she was unemployed, and heard that she was walking her dog or she could have been high or at the methedone clinic. Not sure really. She never really made it clear and if she said anything her story changed so many times it confused everyone. Maybe someone can remember but I remember it not being clear.

I can tell you one thing, I have never had a chance to walk my daughter to school because she goes to the before and afterschool program but if I was unemployed or even capable of picking up my child from school I would make it happen. It is your priority as a parent. When drugs are involved you lose all sense of what is going on around you. Daryn and Tori were probably very close because of what was going on around them. They could have been scared, they saw alot I am sure which is why they were so close. Tara stated that her drug use didnt effect her as a parent and that is how far out of it she is. She is an addict they dont care about anything around them but getting their next fix. I dont even want to begin to know what illegal activity these children have seen or the crazy weirdos that have walked in their house at any given time.

TM has stated that she was at home waiting for her children to come home after school. She has also stated or posted on FB that JG was there with her. This was the first time the children were supposed to be walking home from school to the new house. There was no specific new plan made for them to meet with each other after school to make the walk home to the new house. They apparently always walked home alone to the old house but it was doors away from the school. This I can understand. But not picking them up on the first day they had to walk home to the new house and going over the route that they would be taking when both of them were supposedly at home? I just don't understand that.

[margaret_diane]

kamille,

having visited the town, and seen the family home (both old and new).... from outside only of course -- I can tell you that they likely wouldn't have needed much instruction on how to get to the new house! It was pretty straightforward... walk straight down the street for a few minutes, left onto the new street... and thats it. Should have taken 15 minutes at a SLOW pace by kids MAX. I'd even go as low as TEN minutes... Daryn is / was definately old enough to know where he / they'd be going without needing mom to pick them up. I don't know it was the best decision mom could have made (not picking them up / escorting them) but it was probably made on the basis that Daryn would be walking Tori home, and since he knew the route, and it was closeby, it probably wasn't considered a huge deal at the time -- of course looking back NOW its a huge deal -- but hindsight is always 20/20 -- what I bet any member of that family would give now to go back and change that no one picked the kids up!!

[cleo612]

I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

Off subject: My mother is an Oxy addict. She was given this, 10 milligrams, twice a day, by her pain management doctor, glorified-licensed drug dealer. Anyway, that was five or six years ago. She now takes around 40 or 50 milligrams, three or four times a day. She is extremely thin. She has aged about twenty years. She slurs her words, she says things that don't make sense, and she is only worried about making sure she has a new prescription, a way to get it, and that she takes it. When it starts getting close to her dose time, she is dizzy, sweating, shaking...it's totally crazy. She is a Type I diabetic and has over-insulinated herself several times and has actually taken the wrong insulin on different occasions. I talked about suing the doctor that gave her the medication, but she signed a full release stating she knew what she was taking and the consequences. Anyway, this will be how I remember my mother after she is gone, which is totally opposite of the woman I knew before. And more than likely, this drug will probably take at least ten years off her life. It is a very sad thing. So I really can't understand why someone would voluntarily take this drug.

I have been on OxyContin for many years. I take 40mgs. 3 times a day, plus I take another form of Oxy (Percocet) 4 times a day. I have NEVER had any symptoms of slurring my words or saying things that don't make sense (well, not any more than usual). I only wish that I was extremely thin--this is not a side effect of the Oxy, but might be related to your mother's diabetes.

The shaking, sweating and dizzy spells can come on if a dose is missed, but should never be apparent just because she is due for a dose. I get those same symptoms if I oversleep and/or forget to take a dose, but that is the ONLY time that I have any symptoms AT ALL.

From the sounds of what you are describing, your mother might be taking more than the prescribed dosage, or is taking another medication along with the Oxy. You mentioned that your mother has a history of taking too much insulin or even the wrong kind of insulin. Taking too much Oxy can cause the central nervous system to shut down, leading to severely depressed respirations and can even lead to a sudden heart attack.

It is REALLY important that you let her doctor know about the symptoms that you have described here--especially in regards to the Oxy. I would also look into your mother's medicine cabinet to see what other drugs she is taking. What you have described is NOT NORMAL behavior for someone who has been taking Oxy as prescribed.

[Kamille]

kamille,

having visited the town, and seen the family home (both old and new).... from outside only of course -- I can tell you that they likely wouldn't have needed much instruction on how to get to the new house! It was pretty straightforward... walk straight down the street for a few minutes, left onto the new street... and thats it. Should have taken 15 minutes at a SLOW pace by kids MAX. I'd even go as low as TEN minutes... Daryn is / was definately old enough to know where he / they'd be going without needing mom to pick them up. I don't know it was the best decision mom could have made (not picking them up / escorting them) but it was probably made on the basis that Daryn would be walking Tori home, and since he knew the route, and it was closeby, it probably wasn't considered a huge deal at the time -- of course looking back NOW its a huge deal -- but hindsight is always 20/20 -- what I bet any member of that family would give now to go back and change that no one picked the kids up!!

I can totally understand that if the plan is to wait for your big brother and walk home with him after school, then I see nothing wrong with the two of them doing this. Daryn is certainly old enough for this responsibility. I just don't see them as being very strict about this rule. I'm sure there were lots of times that Tori went off from the school with friends when Daryn was walking the boys home and nothing was thought about it since they lived so close. I suppose I was just taken aback that this was the very first day they would be walking to the new house so I thought if neither TM or JG were doing anything, it just would have been a wise and maybe a loving gesture to at least meet them at the corner and watch them make the walk. Either way, if Tori was targeted and TLM managed to lure her away somehow, it would have happened on a different day I suppose.

[CuriousJorge]

I would think I would come clean on every aspect of my life and involvements to get my child back. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned. Did TM work? Why did she not pick Tori up or walk to meet her or wait for her? I remember reading she wasn't heading home, she was to go to an uncle's or something. Does anyone have a link to this information? I can't remember it.

Off subject: My mother is an Oxy addict. She was given this, 10 milligrams, twice a day, by her pain management doctor, glorified-licensed drug dealer. Anyway, that was five or six years ago. She now takes around 40 or 50 milligrams, three or four times a day. She is extremely thin. She has aged about twenty years. She slurs her words, she says things that don't make sense, and she is only worried about making sure she has a new prescription, a way to get it, and that she takes it. When it starts getting close to her dose time, she is dizzy, sweating, shaking...it's totally crazy. She is a Type I diabetic and has over-insulinated herself several times and has actually taken the wrong insulin on different occasions. I talked about suing the doctor that gave her the medication, but she signed a full release stating she knew what she was taking and the consequences. Anyway, this will be how I remember my mother after she is gone, which is totally opposite of the woman I knew before. And more than likely, this drug will probably take at least ten years off her life. It is a very sad thing. So I really can't understand why someone would voluntarily take this drug.

AM I realize what you're saying about Oxys. Unfortunately there are people who are dealing with severe chronic pain and no other medication brings relief. I for one know. I have Fibromyalgia and bulging discs in my low back plus other health problems and "nothing" eases the pain other than Oxycocet. No I do not take Oxycontin but I do take Oxycocet. I only take them when I am absolutely desperate. The difference between the two is Oxycocet is short term pain relief and Oxycontin is time release lasting about 12 hrs. depending on how many mgs. The problem is is that some people use it for the wrong reason...to get high. When given as a prescription from your doctor, they are only allowed to give so much within a certain amount of time (usually month to month). Pharmacies also will question if they notice large doses being prescribed. The sad truth is is that these drugs are obtained thru illegal activity such as robberies of pharmacies, people being prescribed them who falsify symptoms to get them and then sell them. Does anyone know for "certain" if CM has cancer? I know it was in a media report, but we know the media can be wrong too or will report whatever they hear. CM may have told them this as a sympathy tactic and to try to cover up her reason for having Oxys. This is where I feel the connection comes full circle, CM the supplier, TL the dealer, MR, JG and possibly TM the users and TS the innocent little victim. Her Dr. may be prescribing them to her for say back issues (possibly her hummungous breasts cause her back problems:eek:). There was one media video that I've never been able to find, where CM is standing at the bottom of her driveway, talking to the media and telling them off. I believe she stated in this clip she had cancer. There maybe isn't even a video on the internet, as I saw it on TV the day after MR/TLM were arrested. It's not the one of her on her front porch, but possibly the same day, as she was wearing the same pink shirt. Unfortunately Oxy is getting a bad wrap because it's falling into the wrong hands. My sister also suffers from Fibro and other health issues. She was on Oxycontin for 4 yrs. and was able to whean herself off. I'm believing some people have highly addictive personalities and others use it just because they can.

[Hello_Kitty]

TM in her presser said that only her and her mom knew that TS would be walking home alone from school (I'm sure JG knew about it too).

In another presser or interview she said that Tori was supposed to wait at school for Daryn to return from escorting the asperger kid home, I don't know why TS just didn't go with Daryn.

So this leaves a bit of confusion, was she supposed to walk home alone or stay at school to wait for her brother?

What made TS leave by herself.
Was TLM waiting near the school? That would be foolish.
Was TLM waiting further on knowing that TS would be alone because someone told her she was going to be alone?
Did Daryn know ahead of time that TS would leave by herself; a secret between the two?
Is it possible TLM is protecting someone else who might be involved?
Did we ever find out for sure what this Limo ride was all about?

So many questions :(

[brokenhearted]

I know I am going to take a beating for this and I deserve it. Ok, here goes...
I live in a small town, everyone knows everyone ect., etc. Being in a small town you do feel a sense of security. Me and my neighbour have allowed our girls (11 & 7) to walk or bike to and from school which is straight down the street, about a 10-15 mins. walk.
Needless to say, we don't let them go by themselves anymore. But I do understand how/why Tara would've let them go on their own but I am sure if this deed had happened to some other poor child that she would've walked them...as we all are doing now.

[Hello_Kitty]

Not sure if this has been posted:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Cornies_Larry/2009/07/25/10256786-sun.html

[Kittymama]

I know I am going to take a beating for this and I deserve it. Ok, here goes...
I live in a small town, everyone knows everyone ect., etc. Being in a small town you do feel a sense of security. Me and my neighbour have allowed our girls (11 & 7) to walk or bike to and from school which is straight down the street, about a 10-15 mins. walk.
Needless to say, we don't let them go by themselves anymore. But I do understand how/why Tara would've let them go on their own but I am sure if this deed had happened to some other poor child that she would've walked them...as we all are doing now.

I hear you on this. Like I said, I don't have children, but I'm from a very small municipality (group of 5 towns). When I was small, I lived in a tiny town on top of a hill, and I remember being allowed to wander around my neighbourhood--this would have been when I was less than school age, so 2-4.

I went back to visit my grandma with my husband awhile ago (she lives in a town about 5 minutes away from the one I grew up in, and her town--hamlet, actually--is even smaller). We saw a small girl walking by herself, and my husband expressed surprise and disgust that her parents would allow her to be out there walking by herself. This was before Tori was taken. I laughed at him, and I told my mom and grandma later and they laughed at him, too, for being afraid for the girl in a small town like that. But after Tori was taken, I remembered that and realized how easy it would have been for a pedo/murderer to grab her quickly and boot it out to the highway via a quiet back road. Two minutes, tops, and she would have been gone forever. So my husband was right, and I guess you don't realize that until something like this happens, and has an effect on you in some way.

[Kittymama]

Not sure if this has been posted:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Cornies_Larry/2009/07/25/10256786-sun.html

I read that earlier, and I think there may come a time. But I don't think that time is here yet.

[Kamille]

I hear you on this. Like I said, I don't have children, but I'm from a very small municipality (group of 5 towns). When I was small, I lived in a tiny town on top of a hill, and I remember being allowed to wander around my neighbourhood--this would have been when I was less than school age, so 2-4.

I went back to visit my grandma with my husband awhile ago (she lives in a town about 5 minutes away from the one I grew up in, and her town--hamlet, actually--is even smaller). We saw a small girl walking by herself, and my husband expressed surprise and disgust that her parents would allow her to be out there walking by herself. This was before Tori was taken. I laughed at him, and I told my mom and grandma later and they laughed at him, too, for being afraid for the girl in a small town like that. But after Tori was taken, I remembered that and realized how easy it would have been for a pedo/murderer to grab her quickly and boot it out to the highway via a quiet back road. Two minutes, tops, and she would have been gone forever. So my husband was right, and I guess you don't realize that until something like this happens, and has an effect on you in some way.

I believe I've read that a large percentage of SO's and/or pedophiles live in or close to small towns. Probably for just the reason you've mentioned above, people are traditionally just more trusting of their neighbours in small towns. Has anyone on here ever gone through the stranger abduction cases that are on this website alone to see how many of them occured in small towns vs large cities?

[jhulford]

Carol certainly has the look of a cancer patient. My mother died of liver (finally spreading everywhere) cancer, and she went from the beautiful woman she was to a ravaged skeleton in 6 months. She died at home, where she wanted to be. We were lucky that we as a family were able to make sure her wishes were fullfilled. As covered in the rumour thread way back when, Carol has a prescription for her pain meds. HTH :)

[sillybilly]

Silly, that's a great observation.

Can you post the before and after picture together?

You talkin' to me? (in best Robert DeNiro voice).

You be talkin' to techno-challenged sillybilly here :) :) JK

Am short on time here right now Turbo, but here's the link to the pic with the rocks to the left of the tree (a couple of the boulders seem the same size as those that ended up on the blue tarp in subsequent pics).

http://www.theprovince.com/Video+Police+discover+what+could+remains+Tori+Staf ford/1808999/story.html

HTH

[CuriousJorge]

TM in her presser said that only her and her mom knew that TS would be walking home alone from school (I'm sure JG knew about it too).

In another presser or interview she said that Tori was supposed to wait at school for Daryn to return from escorting the asperger kid home, I don't know why TS just didn't go with Daryn.

So this leaves a bit of confusion, was she supposed to walk home alone or stay at school to wait for her brother?

What made TS leave by herself.
Was TLM waiting near the school? That would be foolish.
Was TLM waiting further on knowing that TS would be alone because someone told her she was going to be alone?
Did Daryn know ahead of time that TS would leave by herself; a secret between the two?
Is it possible TLM is protecting someone else who might be involved?
Did we ever find out for sure what this Limo ride was all about?

So many questions :(

& not enough answers...yet. The sad truth is, is that if both MR and TLM plead guilty, we may never have the answers. It will not be tried in court and questions will go unanswered. As for TLM protecting anyone else, I don't think so. She's behind bars and if she' gonna pay, so is anyone else connected. Friend or no friend. I can't see her protecting anyone at this point, what would be the plus to that? JMO but I believe the limo ride was a sting done by LE hoping to get some clues or answers. At that time I really feel they, LE had nothing to go on. They staged it just so, in hopes of SL, JG, TM going along for the ride and thinking these 3 having more to do with TS disappearance may just talk amongst themselves or give LE an opportunity to go in and "bug" TM's house (if this is possible). In TM's PC she said that SL just happened to be at her house when limo "just showed up". TM was told she could take a few friends along. I think LE had been watching (following) SL, knew when SL was at TM's and this is when they approach about going to TO. Sting was planned, just waiting for that opportunity. I really believe in the beginning, LE had very little to go on (other than the video), knew of TM's drug use and JG's past legal affairs (this is why I feel Amber alert was not put out sooner), LE suspected TM/JG were responsible in TS's disappearance. So strange to think back or look back at this case from the beginning and remember how most people thought TS was being held somewhere and still alive. Little did we know or want to believe something so horrific had happened to this poor little baby.

[wendell]

See this is the kind of stuff that makes me WISH that I had some kind of intimate involvement in the case so that I would KNOW what their theories are, and what the heck is going ON!?


i'll trade you anytime.

[jhulford]

TM in her presser said that only her and her mom knew that TS would be walking home alone from school (I'm sure JG knew about it too).

In another presser or interview she said that Tori was supposed to wait at school for Daryn to return from escorting the asperger kid home, I don't know why TS just didn't go with Daryn.

So this leaves a bit of confusion, was she supposed to walk home alone or stay at school to wait for her brother?

What made TS leave by herself.
Was TLM waiting near the school? That would be foolish.
Was TLM waiting further on knowing that TS would be alone because someone told her she was going to be alone?
Did Daryn know ahead of time that TS would leave by herself; a secret between the two?
Is it possible TLM is protecting someone else who might be involved?
Did we ever find out for sure what this Limo ride was all about?

So many questions :(

BBM: I feel confident the limo ride was a classic sting by LE, hoping to entrap TM/ JG into revealing something. This happened at the same time as the house was wired and RS was wired every time he went into the McDonald/ Goris household.

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/Front/home


And yes, so many questions still ...

[Animal04216]

Just a note that misses will not be participating at this time.

[sillybilly]

Turbo ... here's the pic I was referring to:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/Tori-tarp6.jpg

Wonder why the circle of earth at the base of that particular tree appears fresh and is not covered with rocks and overgrowth.

[CuriousJorge]

I know I am going to take a beating for this and I deserve it. Ok, here goes...
I live in a small town, everyone knows everyone ect., etc. Being in a small town you do feel a sense of security. Me and my neighbour have allowed our girls (11 & 7) to walk or bike to and from school which is straight down the street, about a 10-15 mins. walk.
Needless to say, we don't let them go by themselves anymore. But I do understand how/why Tara would've let them go on their own but I am sure if this deed had happened to some other poor child that she would've walked them...as we all are doing now.

Broken, no beating on my part. I believe we all would like to think our children have enough smarts what to do if approached by a stranger, and living in small rural towns or cities gives us a false sense of security. There comes a time in our lives where we have to let our child be independent to a degree. We cannot coddle our children forever. Personally I don't really see why TM is taking a bashing for allowing her daughter of almost 9 yrs. of age to show her independence. When I was in kindergarten 41 yrs. ago, I walk to school with my two older sisters 7 & 9. At lunchtime I would walk home approx. 1 mile "by myself" as I only attended half days. Both of my parents worked. When I got home from school, I would get my own lunch, and lay down for a nap. My father was home, but asleep as he worked the nite shift. I grew up and Crystal Beach if anyone is familiar with that town. Population 1000 in winter months, 1,000,000 in the summer (somewhat exaggerated). It was cottage ville, people from all over had cottages there, mainly USA and Canadian citizens. We lived on the main drag, a stones throw from a amusement park (comparible to Wonderland today) for it's time. It closed in 1986. We played in our front yard as droves of tourists passed by day and night, night and day. My parents owned to cottages that they would rent out (even had Hell's A and Satan's C on a few occassions). Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that parents teach their children and hope for the best. Their were "bad" people then too. Honestly, we had a known rapist live (with his parents) about 8 houses down the street from us and my mom would allow my sisters and I to walk to the store past his house
in order to get to the store. Of course mom would be watching from the sidewalk as we made our way there. My oldest sister and I where on our way to the store one snowy Sat. morning and we were approached by a man (local) who offered us a ride (I was 4, sis was 8). Sad thing is is that we were not his first approaches, not his last and he was never charged with anything because LE had nothing to go on as he never harmed anyone.Because our parents taught us about stranger danger, we knew better. I don't believe times were different back then. I think there is much more publicity and of course the population is growing, therefore it seems child abductions are happening more often.

Sorry for the long rant, but as I said, there are all ages of children walking alone to many places. I am amazed everyday by how many children I see out and about on their own. And I'm talking about "young" children (5,6,7,8). My daughter, 17 thinks I'm overprotective because I have never allowed her to walk the streets alone. Just in the last couple of years, and only in daylight hours.

Oh no :eek:I think I'm gonna get a lot of backlash too BH. Not looking for it, just saying that's how it was.

[CuriousJorge]

i'll trade you anytime.

Hi Wendell :blowkiss:! No I wouldn't want to be in your postion for love nor money. Sorry your soo involved. My heart goes out to you. Take all the support you can get Dear.

I'll wait for the trials thank you very much.

[Kamille]

Turbo ... here's the pic I was referring to:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/Tori-tarp6.jpg

Wonder why the circle of earth at the base of that particular tree appears fresh and is not covered with rocks and overgrowth.

If there were rocks on a makeshift grave, they would have been removed by either the officer who found her or others who were processing the scene and taking pictures right after the find. He did say he saw something that made him go further in. I still believe that the rocks were from some sort of makeshift grave and may have been lifted up and placed to the side right after the find, before the coroner got there. The rock pile is just too far away for them to have rolled down there unless there are more rocks behind that small tree and they did just roll down and were removed to make room for the coroner and forensic people.

[antiquegirl]

Wonder why the circle of earth at the base of that particular tree appears fresh and is not covered with rocks and overgrowth.

These pictures were taken approximately 24 hours after the remains were discovered. My guess is that the entire area was cleared and searched with a fine-toothed comb by LE long before the videos were taken or pics were snapped.

MOO

[sillybilly]

These pictures were taken approximately 24 hours after the remains were discovered. My guess is that the entire area was cleared and searched with a fine-toothed comb by LE long before the videos were taken or pics were snapped.

MOO

Thanks AG. That makes sense.

[Justice07]

I can see the cold heartless b***** being true. No conscience.

But, I have to disagree with the "wild goose chase" part. I know it seems that way to people because they were not able to find her, but you have to admit that the Profile she gave them, was VERY accurate.

Without that Profile, Tori would in all likelihood not have been found, for a very long time, if at all.

The similarities of the search locations to the recovery location are undeniable.

But what new information came to light, what new tip, to lead Det.-Sgt.Smyth to this new vicinity? Come on folks, there is more to this! :confused::waitasec:

Maybe TLM "remembered" something new.

I was just stating what this OPP who spent time with TLM during the searches had said. She was apparently very vague with her information, not very helpful or straight forward and didn't show any kind of remorse or real concern on whether they found little Tori or not. It was very frustrating for the LE that had to accompany her during those first few days of searching.

As for the similarities in the search locations, there are so many back roads and farm land around here that there was bound to be some similarities. IMO.

It's just my opinion but I personally don't believe that TLM suddenly had a concsience and truly wanted to return Tori to her family and therefore was being 100% truthful and helpful in confessing to where they had left that sweet little girl. Again only my opinion.

[Justice07]

Did the officer state she wasn't helpful before or after the remains were found? I can see them thinking it was a wild goose chase until they actually found the remains in a location that fit her description.

Cold hearted biatch - I can believe. Wow, she doesn't even know how to ACT nice.

This was said before the remains were found.

[sillybilly]

It's just my opinion but I personally don't believe that TLM suddenly had a concsience and truly wanted to return Tori to her family and therefore was being 100% truthful and helpful in confessing to where they had left that sweet little girl. Again only my opinion.<snip>

Agreed Justice !! A leopard doesn't change its spots overnite. I think once it became public, it was a self-serving attempt at somehow putting herself in a better light due to her predicament.

ETA: Having said that, she may have been truthful with her info and honestly couldn't zero in on the precise location. I just don't feel that someone who could have participated in such a heinous act could have changed so suddenly into a remorseful, empathetic, caring individual. MOO

[PepperFritz]

My friend knows a women who is married to someone involved in the case. Prosecution, district attorney, something like that.. I am not sure which it is I just know someone who is involved in the case... She couldnt say much all she said to my friend is that "Tara is more involved and knows more than what is being said right now" She couldnt elaborate on it that is all she said. I wish i knew more I really do but thats it....

Yes, that is being heard consistently from a lot of "insiders". For that reason, I believe it is probably true....

[Turbododger]

Turbo ... here's the pic I was referring to:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/Tori-tarp6.jpg

Wonder why the circle of earth at the base of that particular tree appears fresh and is not covered with rocks and overgrowth.

If there were rocks on a makeshift grave, they would have been removed by either the officer who found her or others who were processing the scene and taking pictures right after the find. He did say he saw something that made him go further in. I still believe that the rocks were from some sort of makeshift grave and may have been lifted up and placed to the side right after the find, before the coroner got there. The rock pile is just too far away for them to have rolled down there unless there are more rocks behind that small tree and they did just roll down and were removed to make room for the coroner and forensic people.


Thanks, Silly, (yeah, you, I'm talkin' to you...in her best Willis voice, lol)

I think you are right, Sillybilly. The 2 big rocks, to the left of the tree in that picture, and probably all the little ones closest to the tree, are the rocks that later ended up on top of the blue tarp, to the right of the tree (in other screenshots.) LE took them as evidence, in case they contained forensics.

After seeing this in a different perspective, thanks to Sillybilly, I take back what I said about the rocks being used as a grave over Tori.

I am on the fence on this one.

I guess it just makes me wonder real hard about them leaving Tori at the base of that tree, out in the open, in full view.

I have to look at the video again.

[nonfictionrocks]

Not sure if this has been posted:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Cornies_Larry/2009/07/25/10256786-sun.html

An apology to Rodney yes - I don't think anyone is questioning his involvement.

An apology to TM - way too premature Larry!

[girl_next_door]

These pictures were taken approximately 24 hours after the remains were discovered. My guess is that the entire area was cleared and searched with a fine-toothed comb by LE long before the videos were taken or pics were snapped.

MOO

That's exactly what I was thinking too. They probably also keep "samples" of the area surrounding the remains to test for DNA, clues etc too right?

[antiquegirl]

That's exactly what I was thinking too. They probably also keep "samples" of the area surrounding the remains to test for DNA, clues etc too right?

I would think so, yes.

[girl_next_door]

It's just my opinion but I personally don't believe that TLM suddenly had a concsience and truly wanted to return Tori to her family and therefore was being 100% truthful and helpful in confessing to where they had left that sweet little girl. Again only my opinion.

I believe it was quite possible she was actually trying to help them find the remains. But because she had a conscience? Not at all. I'm guessing her lawyer urged her to, and she did it in hopes of getting a plea bargain or a more lenient sentence.

[jhulford]

That cleared area looks to me like a 'party spot', about 20' diameter.

[Anothermom]

http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=1622098

Snipped:

Wearing a black dress and dark sunglasses, her voice barely controlled, Ms. McDonald said she had met Ms. McClintic "on two or three occasions" before Tori went missing when she visited with the accused woman's mother to discuss dog breeding. The McClintics lived around the corner from where Tori lived with her mother.

"We were going to breed our dogs," she said. "After we had met with the mother twice she had asked that we drop our dog off there for a day or two and I said absolutely not. I'm not taking my dog over there. I don't want to breed my dog with their animal. They were just strange people. Like, the mother was a very shifty individual, she was twitchy and weird and I just didn't feel comfortable there."

Even so, she said she offered to help them. "We offered them furniture because when we went into their home they didn't have any. They said their stuff was in a storage unit....We offered, when we had our truck to move in here, to help them get their things."

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.




I just had forgotten about this article. There have been so many and some were so long ago that it is hard to remember them verbatim.

[Flowercb]

TM neighbour at the Co-Op wanted to buy TM couch but she told them that she was giving it to her friend TLM. This neighbour quotes that TM said her "friend".

[Flowercb]

Baker recalled a different connection.

"Terri-Lynne, I had heard her name last year, speaking with Tara," Baker said.

"I had a friend who was going to buy the couch that Tara had, and that fell through and I remember (Tara) saying, 'Oh no, I'm going to give it to my friend Terri-Lynne.' "

-With files from Tamsyn Burgmann

Here is the link to the article:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090521/national/missing_girl

[margaret_diane]

i'll trade you anytime.

Thanks Wendell,
I guess I hadn't thought really about how I might feel to know either of the accused. That's gotta be awful -- to know your best friend stands an accused child murderer. My heart goes out to you and others in your position.

[paris_paris]

Baker recalled a different connection.

"Terri-Lynne, I had heard her name last year, speaking with Tara," Baker said.

"I had a friend who was going to buy the couch that Tara had, and that fell through and I remember (Tara) saying, 'Oh no, I'm going to give it to my friend Terri-Lynne.' "

-With files from Tamsyn Burgmann

Here is the link to the article:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090521/national/missing_girl

Just quoted to bold something I thought was important.

[Kamille]

It is interesting to go back to those early newspaper reports.

Homicide investigator OPP Det.-Insp. Bill Renton said very little about the case and wouldn't comment on whether there was a sexual component to the death.

"We all wanted Tori back safe and sound," Renton said. "Unfortunately, two other individuals had different agendas."

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

He said the female suspect knows Victoria's mother, Tara McDonald, but wouldn't elaborate.

What also hasn't been determined is the motive, Renton said.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html


BBM I don't remember ever reading that there was a gap of about a week from the time they first knew about MR and his arrest. I think we assumed it from the e-mail that was supposedly sent on the 15th but I don't remember reading that anyone had asked Renton about it.

[ChaChaCha]

It is interesting to go back to those early newspaper reports.

Homicide investigator OPP Det.-Insp. Bill Renton said very little about the case and wouldn't comment on whether there was a sexual component to the death.

"We all wanted Tori back safe and sound," Renton said. "Unfortunately, two other individuals had different agendas."

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

He said the female suspect knows Victoria's mother, Tara McDonald, but wouldn't elaborate.

What also hasn't been determined is the motive, Renton said.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html


BBM I don't remember ever reading that there was a gap of about a week from the time they first knew about MR and his arrest. I think we assumed it from the e-mail that was supposedly sent on the 15th but I don't remember reading that anyone had asked Renton about it.

It is interesting to look back...

Was it after that presser that details emerged about TLM's allegation that TS was abducted for MR's purposes, and that she walked away during the assault? Just asking, because this report seems to indicate that the motive was unknown and the officer did not speak to a possible sexual assault...

Those details were released directly by LE weren't they - or did they come from "sources"????

[Flowercb]

Does anyone know how to copy a map on here which will show Palmerston and Mount Forest and Arthur Township?

[Anothermom]

This is from something I posted on page 6 of this thread:

Even so, she said she offered to help them. "We offered them furniture because when we went into their home they didn't have any. They said their stuff was in a storage unit....We offered, when we had our truck to move in here, to help them get their things."

TM and JG and DS and TS had only been living there for five days on April 8, 2009. So as early as, say, April 3, 2009, they had offered up their truck to help them get their things.

[Anothermom]

That puts a communication between the McClintics and TM and JG and possibly the children at less than a week before Tori's abduction.

[nonfictionrocks]

It is interesting to look back...

Was it after that presser that details emerged about TLM's allegation that TS was abducted for MR's purposes, and that she walked away during the assault? Just asking, because this report seems to indicate that the motive was unknown and the officer did not speak to a possible sexual assault...

Those details were released directly by LE weren't they - or did they come from "sources"????

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html

Rob Stafford stood silently waiting in the crowd until a handcuffed man who hid his face with his shirt walked out of the Oxford County courthouse.

Despite the police surrounding the man accused of killing Stafford's niece, Victoria, the uncle lunged out, cussing.

Police pushed him back, but his palpable anger over little Tori's fate was matched throughout the city.

Earlier, Steve Millen, Stafford's brother-in-law, had been spotted by police and told to move away.

"We should have had a third guy," Stafford said later in the day.

Wonder what Rob meant by this?

Also I thought the phrase the police used was "nefarious" purposes.

[Flowercb]

TLM zeroed in on Tori that is becoming more obvious. Of course TLM wanted it to seem she was doing this strictly for MTR but there is more to this than that.

[Turbododger]

It is interesting to go back to those early newspaper reports.

Homicide investigator OPP Det.-Insp. Bill Renton said very little about the case and wouldn't comment on whether there was a sexual component to the death.

"We all wanted Tori back safe and sound," Renton said. "Unfortunately, two other individuals had different agendas."

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

He said the female suspect knows Victoria's mother, Tara McDonald, but wouldn't elaborate.

What also hasn't been determined is the motive, Renton said.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html


BBM I don't remember ever reading that there was a gap of about a week from the time they first knew about MR and his arrest. I think we assumed it from the e-mail that was supposedly sent on the 15th but I don't remember reading that anyone had asked Renton about it.


Kamille, thanks for digging this one out.

I also don't remember reading a question to Renton about the gap, especially it being "almost a week".

Does Friday to Tuesday count for "almost a week"?

I also assumed that Rafferty came under scrutiny as a result of the neighbours email tip on his plate. This sounds like there may have been other evidence. I dunno, hard to say really.

I do wonder if LE a) received and read the email tip on the Friday. Don't assume here folks. I specifically received an email from the OPP Resolve copied below, to my question regarding whether the seat is still being looked for, if it's just the bottom, black paint etc.(for which I have still not heard an answer, I requested July 2nd, received this reply on July 20):

Thank you for your email.
This information will once again be passed on to the investigating officers.
Our unit does not get involved in the investigation, therefore cannot assist with your question, but your email has been forwarded.
Once again, thank you for your time and your interest in this case.
OPP Missing Persons Unidentified Remains Unit opp.isb.resolve@ontario.ca

and I wonder if b) they put Rafferty under surveilance before taking him in for questioning.

[sillybilly]

After seeing this in a different perspective, thanks to Sillybilly, I take back what I said about the rocks being used as a grave over Tori.

I am on the fence on this one.

I guess it just makes me wonder real hard about them leaving Tori at the base of that tree, out in the open, in full view.

I have to look at the video again.<snip>

You don't have to take anything back Turbo. It IS entirely possible the rocks were used as some type of cover and removed by LE to accommodate initial examination, then removed further out of the way for more extensive examination and evidence and body removal.

These perps are so callous, I don't see why they wouldn't have just placed the body in an area that had a bit more cover, as opposed to dumping this sweet child like common refuse at the base of a tree, then going to the trouble of lifting heavy rocks or boulders in an attempt to cover her as any sign of respect. I guess I'm having trouble attributing the quality of compassion to anyone who could have done such a thing to an innocent child. I suppose ANY snippet of compassion by either of them might be a tiny indicator that her death was not an intended part of whatever evil plan they had hatched.

[Beast]

The thing about drugs is, they affect people different ways. I have a very bad back from a work injury years ago. I have been on a cocktail of narcotics for pain for sometime now. I was taking OxyContin and MSContin, but as they condition worsened it wasnt working as well anymore and I was changed to something else. I dont recall the mg strength. Now I am taking Morphine and Morphine SR, for those of you that dont know the difference one is slow release for lasting effect and the other for breakthrough relief. The thing is all these narcotics are CHEAPER than other medication that might work better or just as well but is more than TWICE the price as these Opiates! How does that make sense.

[Beast]

It should be pointed out that what I am on now is much more expensive than the CONTIN family. My RX for an entire month 2 tabs every 4 hours was less than $40. Yet the street value is much more than that. THIS imo is a big problem as well. The non narcotic drugs should be more affordable.

[scotslass]

It is interesting to look back...

Was it after that presser that details emerged about TLM's allegation that TS was abducted for MR's purposes, and that she walked away during the assault? Just asking, because this report seems to indicate that the motive was unknown and the officer did not speak to a possible sexual assault...

Those details were released directly by LE weren't they - or did they come from "sources"????

Cha LE made the statement of "nefarious purposes" Christie blatchford printed the article stating sexual assault and I believe City TV also put that out there very early on. I would at this time like to point out that nefarious activities is a common description when dealing with organized crime and/or terrorism. I find that wording unusual as a reference to a sexual assault although technically it could apply as nefarious just means criminal activity.

Uk police use this term when referring to terrorism (IRA,Taliban, as well as biker gangs (i know you will love that one lol) but i have never seen it used to refer to a crime like this it was an odd use of words which i think led to the speculation of sexual assault or something heinous. Having said that Blatchford said the sexual assault reference came from TLM.. It has not been mentioned since and no charges of nature have been laid so like everything in this case it is still a mystery...

[Anothermom]

The thing about drugs is, they affect people different ways. I have a very bad back from a work injury years ago. I have been on a cocktail of narcotics for pain for sometime now. I was taking OxyContin and MSContin, but as they condition worsened it wasnt working as well anymore and I was changed to something else. I dont recall the mg strength. Now I am taking Morphine and Morphine SR, for those of you that dont know the difference one is slow release for lasting effect and the other for breakthrough relief. The thing is all these narcotics are CHEAPER than other medication that might work better or just as well but is more than TWICE the price as these Opiates! How does that make sense.

I know. What about a pain patch? I mentioned my mother earlier, and her quality of life, health, seems to have diminished with the use of pain medications, but she says that without them, she didn't want to live anymore because she was in such severe constant pain.

[Beast]

Thank you for the suggestion but not in my case. I dont want to hijack this thread so I'll just say it is problems with my discs, pinching the nerves, so a patch would do nothing.

[Kamille]

This is from something I posted on page 6 of this thread:

Even so, she said she offered to help them. "We offered them furniture because when we went into their home they didn't have any. They said their stuff was in a storage unit....We offered, when we had our truck to move in here, to help them get their things."

TM and JG and DS and TS had only been living there for five days on April 8, 2009. So as early as, say, April 3, 2009, they had offered up their truck to help them get their things.


Yes by this admission she is implying that one of the "two or three visits" was within a week at the most that Tori was abducted. She also stated that she only saw TLM once on one of those visits but that she was just sitting in a chair drugged up or something to that effect. She claimed she never actually met her. How she would have placed her as the POI in the video in this situation I have no idea.

TLM on the other hand indicated to LE that she did know TM but did not know that Tori was her daughter. It is very strange. TM also claimed that it was CM who told either her or JG that TLM knew Tori from walking the dog. So TM is implying here that she had no idea that TLM knew Tori.

I truly hope that LE has completely checked out all of those connections before the trial so that there will be no surprises from the defence.

[Anothermom]

Cha LE made the statement of "nefarious purposes" Christie blatchford printed the article stating sexual assault and I believe City TV also put that out there very early on. I would at this time like to point out that nefarious activities is a common description when dealing with organized crime and/or terrorism. I find that wording unusual as a reference to a sexual assault although technically it could apply as nefarious just means criminal activity.

Uk police use this term when referring to terrorism (IRA,Taliban, as well as biker gangs (i know you will love that one lol) but i have never seen it used to refer to a crime like this it was an odd use of words which i think led to the speculation of sexual assault or something heinous. Having said that Blatchford said the sexual assault reference came from TLM.. It has not been mentioned since and no charges of nature have been laid so like everything in this case it is still a mystery...

From Miriam Webster:



Main Entry: ne·far·i·ous
Pronunciation: \ni-ˈfer-ē-əs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin nefarius, from nefas crime, from ne- not + fas right, divine law.
: flagrantly wicked or impious : evil
synonyms see vicious

[K.Scarpetta]

I can see the cold heartless b***** being true. No conscience.

But, I have to disagree with the "wild goose chase" part. I know it seems that way to people because they were not able to find her, but you have to admit that the Profile she gave them, was VERY accurate.

Without that Profile, Tori would in all likelihood not have been found, for a very long time, if at all.

The similarities of the search locations to the recovery location are undeniable.

But what new information came to light, what new tip, to lead Det.-Sgt.Smyth to this new vicinity? Come on folks, there is more to this! :confused::waitasec:

Maybe TLM "remembered" something new.

FWIW
I live close to the Mount Forest area, some people here speculate that VS's little body was actually found by a member of the Mennonite community, who did not want to become involved (this is not unusual). Information was relayed to LE who in turn promised to "keep things quiet".
Just another theory.........

[roseofsharon]

Yes by this admission she is implying that one of the "two or three visits" was within a week at the most that Tori was abducted. She also stated that she only saw TLM once on one of those visits but that she was just sitting in a chair drugged up or something to that effect. She claimed she never actually met her. How she would have placed her as the POI in the video in this situation I have no idea.

TLM on the other hand indicated to LE that she did know TM but did not know that Tori was her daughter. It is very strange. TM also claimed that it was CM who told either her or JG that TLM knew Tori from walking the dog. So TM is implying here that she had no idea that TLM knew Tori.

I truly hope that LE has completely checked out all of those connections before the trial so that there will be no surprises from the defence.

I think TLM cased Oliver Stephens School prior to the abduction just to get the lay of the land regarding school policy and watch Tori's routine.

This abduction was so brazen. If she had chosen a child at random, she would not have known who a random child could have been associated with after school (i.e. neighbour picking up, relative picking up, the child) and would have been caught red handed. What could she have said to a total stranger about why she was walking their child away from the school.

On the other hand, when she walked with Tori, if Tara, Daryn, grandmother or any other family member appeared on the scene, she could have casually brushed it off saying -- oh I met Tori and was just walking home with her. If grandmother did not know TLM, Tori would have told grandma she was a friend of Mom's and it would not have looked suspicious at all.

That's why she was not worried at all about who saw her with Tori.

Different story with random child. Whatever lure she would have used for a random child would not have washed, had she encountered that child's parent/sitter.

MOO

[margaret_diane]

Just a few points I wanted to throw out there about various issues -- BUT FIRST A WARNING THAT THE POST I AM ABOUT TO MAKE MIGHT BE CONSIDERED GRAPHIC AND COULD BE UPSETTING TO THOSE READING IT... its not intended to be that way, but I fear it could be, hence the graphic post warning....

a) regarding whether her death was PLANNED by her abductors -- doesn't the fact that they have BOTH been charged now with 1st Degree Murder automatically imply that LE believe the murder was PREMEDIATED and therefore planned and rather calculated??

b) WARNING AGAIN THIS POINT MIGHT BE UPSETTING TO READ.....

In regards to the site where remains were found: have we considered at all that the placement of her remains might have been quite intentional?? Example, perhaps being left out in the open, under everyone's noses so to speak might have been a giant F YOU to Tori's loved ones from her killers?? The same could be said about the accused having driven about town presumably while Tori was captive -- stops at the HD, a brazen taking from the school area right through town in broad daylight..... Its possible that her placement in that field means that she was MEANT to be found there at some point, by someone (I won't hazard a guess as to who that someone might have been, but still -- that they wanted her found at a particular place in a particular state might have been why she was placed there -- hidden, but apparently not so hidden as to be assured of no chance of anyone really finding her accidentally)....

[Kamille]

I believe it was quite possible she was actually trying to help them find the remains. But because she had a conscience? Not at all. I'm guessing her lawyer urged her to, and she did it in hopes of getting a plea bargain or a more lenient sentence.

TLM apparently starting co-operating with LE before she had a lawyer. It was also apparently her idea to help them find the remains. Well at least that's what her lawyer has said....


Ms. McClintic, 18, has since also volunteered to assist police in the search for Tori's body. A judge has granted special permission for her to be released from jail for three days to accompany police searching rural farmland in Southern Ontario. Ms. McClintic's lawyer, Jeanine LeRoy, said her client volunteered to help police for the sake of Tori's family and not to earn leniency.

"She was assisting the police pursuant to a judge's order on Wednesday, before she ever talked to me. This is not her lawyer's idea. She wanted to do this. She knew she didn't have to, and it is her idea to assist in this way," Ms. LeRoy said. "I would describe her as hopeful; hopeful that the investigation will soon be completed with her help," she added.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/SUSPECT+ACTED+REVENGE+TORI/1622098/story.html

Take from that quote what you will.

[antiquegirl]

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html

Rob Stafford stood silently waiting in the crowd until a handcuffed man who hid his face with his shirt walked out of the Oxford County courthouse.

Despite the police surrounding the man accused of killing Stafford's niece, Victoria, the uncle lunged out, cussing.

Police pushed him back, but his palpable anger over little Tori's fate was matched throughout the city.

Earlier, Steve Millen, Stafford's brother-in-law, had been spotted by police and told to move away.

"We should have had a third guy," Stafford said later in the day.

Wonder what Rob meant by this?

Also I thought the phrase the police used was "nefarious" purposes.

Just a guess here, but I think what RS meant is that the family had two guys there who were willing to attack MTR when he was being transported to and from court. Since they were held back by LE, he wished that there had been a third. MOO

[woot who]

I've been away from the forum for a month or so but check in from time to time to see if Tori was found. Needless to say I was greatly saddened but relieved as well to read (last night) that she was finally found.

Attempting to catch up I jumped around the last few threads but it was really, really late. Anyway I thought I read a comment that said they left her there to die, or something along those lines. Does this sound familiar? or maybe I am mixing up with the Neveah B. case.. That's what happens when I try to catch up at at 3am :S

[antiquegirl]

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

I don't remember ever reading that there was a gap of about a week from the time they first knew about MR and his arrest. I think we assumed it from the e-mail that was supposedly sent on the 15th but I don't remember reading that anyone had asked Renton about it.

Is this not referring to the tip LE got from JM and the other neighbours, but they didn't know MTR's name and had to wait a week until they finally got his license plate number?

[antiquegirl]

a) regarding whether her death was PLANNED by her abductors -- doesn't the fact that they have BOTH been charged now with 1st Degree Murder automatically imply that LE believe the murder was PREMEDIATED and therefore planned and rather calculated??

(Respectfully snipped by me)

Margaret_Diane, no it doesn't. Canadian law states that anyone who kidnaps a victim and that victim dies during, or as a result of, that kidnapping is automatically charged with 1st Degree Murder. It makes no difference whether the crime was premeditated or not, whether the victim died from an attack, an accident, or natural causes, it's still 1st Degree. All LE has to believe is that the accused abducted Tori and that she died before she could get home.

First degree murder is a murder which is (1) planned and deliberate, (2) contracted, (3) committed against an identified peace officer, (4) while committing or attempting to commit one of the following offences (hijacking an aircraft, sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping and forcible confinement or hostage taking), (5) while committing criminal harassment, (6) committed during terrorist activity, (7) while using explosives in association with a criminal organization, or (8) while committing intimidation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#First_and_second_degree

[flipflop]

FWIW
I live close to the Mount Forest area, some people here speculate that VS's little body was actually found by a member of the Mennonite community, who did not want to become involved (this is not unusual). Information was relayed to LE who in turn promised to "keep things quiet".
Just another theory.........

Being from the area as well, I heard this too. Lots of people are speculating this. Fact or rumour, we will never know.

[K.Scarpetta]

Being from the area as well, I heard this too. Lots of people are speculating this. Rumour or truth...who knows.

I also heard that her body was not "hidden" just left out in plain view.
You?

[margaret_diane]

AG,

THanks for that clarification -- I honestly thought that 1st degree murder charges indicated premeditated... hmmmm.... so ANY kidnap victim who ends up dead, if they charge someone -- will likely be charged with 1st degree -- is that accurate??

[ChaChaCha]

I think TLM cased Oliver Stephens School prior to the abduction just to get the lay of the land regarding school policy and watch Tori's routine.

This abduction was so brazen. If she had chosen a child at random, she would not have known who a random child could have been associated with after school (i.e. neighbour picking up, relative picking up, the child) and would have been caught red handed. What could she have said to a total stranger about why she was walking their child away from the school.

On the other hand, when she walked with Tori, if Tara, Daryn, grandmother or any other family member appeared on the scene, she could have casually brushed it off saying -- oh I met Tori and was just walking home with her. If grandmother did not know TLM, Tori would have told grandma she was a friend of Mom's and it would not have looked suspicious at all.

That's why she was not worried at all about who saw her with Tori.

Different story with random child. Whatever lure she would have used for a random child would not have washed, had she encountered that child's parent/sitter.

MOO
Exactly! TLM had no fear! She targetted Tori specifically - not at random!

Thank you for spelling that out so beautifully... I have thought from the beginning that poor little Tori knew her abductor but didn't know that she couldn't trust her...

[scotslass]

From Miriam Webster:



Main Entry: ne·far·i·ous
Pronunciation: \ni-ˈfer-ē-əs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin nefarius, from nefas crime, from ne- not + fas right, divine law.
: flagrantly wicked or impious : evil
synonyms see vicious

Yes and from the Oxford dictionary:


ne·far·i·ous / niˈfe(ə)rēəs/ • adj. (typically of an action or activity) wicked or criminal: the nefarious activities of the organized-crime syndicates.

DERIVATIVES: ne·far·i·ous·ly adv. ne·far·i·ous·ness n.

ORIGIN early 17th Cent.: from latin nefarius, from nefas, nefar- 'wrong' (from ne - 'not' + fas 'divine law' ) + -ous.

[ChaChaCha]

Cha LE made the statement of "nefarious purposes" Christie blatchford printed the article stating sexual assault and I believe City TV also put that out there very early on. I would at this time like to point out that nefarious activities is a common description when dealing with organized crime and/or terrorism. I find that wording unusual as a reference to a sexual assault although technically it could apply as nefarious just means criminal activity.

Uk police use this term when referring to terrorism (IRA,Taliban, as well as biker gangs (i know you will love that one lol) but i have never seen it used to refer to a crime like this it was an odd use of words which i think led to the speculation of sexual assault or something heinous. Having said that Blatchford said the sexual assault reference came from TLM.. It has not been mentioned since and no charges of nature have been laid so like everything in this case it is still a mystery...

Thank you Scottslass... we had contemplated the meaning a few weeks ago, and pretty much decided that the use of "nefarious" was deliberately ambiguous...

So now my question is: Where did the info come from regarding the assault in the car? Did that come from LE?

[antiquegirl]

AG,

THanks for that clarification -- I honestly thought that 1st degree murder charges indicated premeditated... hmmmm.... so ANY kidnap victim who ends up dead, if they charge someone -- will likely be charged with 1st degree -- is that accurate??

Yes, that's right. However, there was the case of Cecilia Zhang, where the perp was initially charged with 1st, but then pleaded down to 2nd degree. I can't remember how that happened and don't have time to research it now. Sorry.

[flipflop]

I also heard that her body was not "hidden" just left out in plain view.
You?

40 feet off of the path under the pine tree exposed to the elements.

[PeonyLover]

I think TLM cased Oliver Stephens School prior to the abduction just to get the lay of the land regarding school policy and watch Tori's routine.

This abduction was so brazen. If she had chosen a child at random, she would not have known who a random child could have been associated with after school (i.e. neighbour picking up, relative picking up, the child) and would have been caught red handed. What could she have said to a total stranger about why she was walking their child away from the school.

On the other hand, when she walked with Tori, if Tara, Daryn, grandmother or any other family member appeared on the scene, she could have casually brushed it off saying -- oh I met Tori and was just walking home with her. If grandmother did not know TLM, Tori would have told grandma she was a friend of Mom's and it would not have looked suspicious at all.

That's why she was not worried at all about who saw her with Tori.

Different story with random child. Whatever lure she would have used for a random child would not have washed, had she encountered that child's parent/sitter.

MOO

I agree with you completely.
I believe TLM knew full well who Tori was at the time of the abduction and that Tori was targeted specifically for some reason that we are not aware of.
I believe that is why she dressed herself up to look exactly like TM right down to the severely pulled back pony tail. Many times during the press conferences I recall seeing TM with dark pants and a white coat with her hair pulled back into that pony tail. I have not seen any photos of TLM yet with her hair pulled back in that fashion. I think TLM expected that anyone questioning who was picking Tori up would assume it was TM by the way she was dressed and the way she had her hair. I seem to recall that there was a report that someone said they had seen TM putting Tori into a car, and whoever thought it was TM probably made that assumption based on the way she (TLM) was dressed. JMO

[K.Scarpetta]

Yes by this admission she is implying that one of the "two or three visits" was within a week at the most that Tori was abducted. She also stated that she only saw TLM once on one of those visits but that she was just sitting in a chair drugged up or something to that effect. She claimed she never actually met her. How she would have placed her as the POI in the video in this situation I have no idea.

TLM on the other hand indicated to LE that she did know TM but did not know that Tori was her daughter. It is very strange. TM also claimed that it was CM who told either her or JG that TLM knew Tori from walking the dog. So TM is implying here that she had no idea that TLM knew Tori.

I truly hope that LE has completely checked out all of those connections before the trial so that there will be no surprises from the defence.

Does anyone else remember the presser when TM said something along the line of "Why would I only protect one of my children (DS)"? That remark still sticks in my mind as well as MTR statement early Apr 8 on his FB account that good things were coming his way.
I feel like many others, that there is sooo much more to this case. Too many coincedences IMO. Hopefully the truth comes out and all involved are held accountable for their actions.

[Hello_Kitty]

So now my question is: Where did the info come from regarding the assault in the car? Did that come from LE?

It wasn't LE, it was said by Christie Blatchford in one of her articles. Wish I could find the article again.

[Kamille]

Thank you Scottslass... we had contemplated the meaning a few weeks ago, and pretty much decided that the use of "nefarious" was deliberately ambiguous...

So now my question is: Where did the info come from regarding the assault in the car? Did that come from LE?


That info came from one of Christie Blatchford's articles. I don't know of any other major newspaper that reported that. Here is the quote...


It is alleged that Ms. McClintic was loitering outside Oliver Stephens Public School that day, where Tori was in Grade 3, as the dismissal bell rang.

The teenager allegedly was on a specific mission to grab a child for Mr. Rafferty, with Tori being simply the first available youngster she spotted.

Ms. McClintic is alleged to have led the little girl to her boyfriend, who was waiting nearby in the same car shortly afterwards caught on the videotape.

The vehicle is now in police hands and will be subjected to a painstaking search, with officers looking for any forensic evidence – from hair to fibres to DNA – of Tori's presence.

Ms. McClintic has told police that she walked a distance away from the car when Mr. Rafferty allegedly assaulted the little girl.

The story is at this link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/subscribe.jsp?art=1147974 but you have to be a member to read it. I had it saved before it became a members only article.

Ms Blatchford seemed to take a lot of liberties in reporting on this case.

[PepperFritz]

Excellent points, Rose.

I think TLM cased Oliver Stephens School prior to the abduction just to get the lay of the land regarding school policy and watch Tori's routine.

This abduction was so brazen. If she had chosen a child at random, she would not have known who a random child could have been associated with after school (i.e. neighbour picking up, relative picking up, the child) and would have been caught red handed. What could she have said to a total stranger about why she was walking their child away from the school.

On the other hand, when she walked with Tori, if Tara, Daryn, grandmother or any other family member appeared on the scene, she could have casually brushed it off saying -- oh I met Tori and was just walking home with her. If grandmother did not know TLM, Tori would have told grandma she was a friend of Mom's and it would not have looked suspicious at all.

That's why she was not worried at all about who saw her with Tori. Different story with random child. Whatever lure she would have used for a random child would not have washed, had she encountered that child's parent/sitter.

[scotslass]

Thank you Scottslass... we had contemplated the meaning a few weeks ago, and pretty much decided that the use of "nefarious" was deliberately ambiguous...

So now my question is: Where did the info come from regarding the assault in the car? Did that come from LE?

Wish we knew, can't see TLM being allowed to do a press interview but blatchford released the details of her walking away etc.. so a leak from LE?

from a Blatchford article

"Although police officially won't comment upon the couple's alleged motive, The Globe and Mail has learned that they believe the crime was sexual in nature."

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/CHRISTIE+BLATCHFORD

and From Dimanno article

"Renton would not address whether police believe Tori had been sexually assaulted in the short time the couple is alleged to have had her with them. Sex charges were not included on the indictment but this can change as the investigation continues. A great deal depends on finding the youngster's remains."

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/637399

[ChaChaCha]

That info came from one of Christie Blatchford's articles. I don't know of any other major newspaper that reported that. Here is the quote...


It is alleged that Ms. McClintic was loitering outside Oliver Stephens Public School that day, where Tori was in Grade 3, as the dismissal bell rang.

The teenager allegedly was on a specific mission to grab a child for Mr. Rafferty, with Tori being simply the first available youngster she spotted.

Ms. McClintic is alleged to have led the little girl to her boyfriend, who was waiting nearby in the same car shortly afterwards caught on the videotape.

The vehicle is now in police hands and will be subjected to a painstaking search, with officers looking for any forensic evidence – from hair to fibres to DNA – of Tori's presence.

Ms. McClintic has told police that she walked a distance away from the car when Mr. Rafferty allegedly assaulted the little girl.

The story is at this link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/subscribe.jsp?art=1147974 but you have to be a member to read it.

Ms Blatchford seemed to take a lot of liberties in reporting on this case.


Thank you so very much Kamille! So LE never officially released any of that info as part of a press release? Blatchford just heard it somewhere and decided to put it out there so every Tom Dick and Harry would read it (ignoring the allegedly part of course) and think that it was fact... She writes "It is alleged that..." without qualifying her source such as LE, or a reliable source or whatever. Who alleged?

I think the problem here is that there are others like me who know that they have heard that somewhere, but can't remember if it was LE or a reporter or whatever...

Just noticed too that she said that the same car was seen on videotape leaving shortly thereafter.... is that the mystery car that LE release the photo of? I thought the mystery car was more of a wagon? Agh!

[PepperFritz]

regarding whether her death was PLANNED by her abductors -- doesn't the fact that they have BOTH been charged now with 1st Degree Murder automatically imply that LE believe the murder was PREMEDIATED and therefore planned and rather calculated??

No, not necessarily. First, the First Degree Murder charge has nothing to do with whether or not her death was premeditated. If a victim dies while in the process of another crime (e.g. abduction/kidnapping) being committed against them, it is automatically First Degree Murder whether the perpetrator intended/planned the death or not.

The fact that TLM was not initially charged with First Degree Murder is probably due to the fact that she was given a "deal" -- i.e. a lesser charge if she took them to the body. When she failed to do that, the agreement was withdrawn and her charges were upgraded to what they would have been before the agreement.

Which raises an interesting question: Now that Tori's body has been found within the parameters provided by TLM, will her lawyer argue that the original agreement should stand and that TLM's charges should again be downgraded?

[ChaChaCha]

No, not necessarily. First, the First Degree Murder charge has nothing to do with whether or not her death was premeditated. If a victim dies while in the process of another crime (e.g. abduction/kidnapping) being committed against them, it is automatically First Degree Murder whether the perpetrator intended/planned the death or not.

The fact that TLM was not initially charged with First Degree Murder is probably due to the fact that she was given a "deal" -- i.e. a lesser charge if she took them to the body. When she failed to do that, the agreement was withdrawn and her charges were upgraded to what they would have been before the agreement.

Which raises an interesting question: Now that Tori's body has been found within the parameters provided by TLM, will her lawyer argue that the original agreement should stand and that TLM's charges should again be downgraded?

No deal. Especially if that was not the case and some poor Mennonite boy got the shock of a lifetime while hanging out under a tree... Dunno though, I think we should check the press releases on this one too - if LE said that they were working with NEW information that came out, that meant that they were not necessarily working with TLM's info...

And here's a big what if....

What if a change in MR's representation led him to provide additional info that perhaps his earlier counsel had thought best to suppress?

[ChaChaCha]

a thought to ponder: interesting that the statement bolded above does NOT say that MR sexually assaulted Tori -- it says TLM walked awby me above may while MR assaulted her. Maybe there was NO sexual assault at all?? Sighhh...one can only hope... but if not... then why kidnap her in the first place?? Police haven't really indicated any motive as yet have they?

Lovely, just all of it. First they arrest two and C Blatchford follows TM's lead and points to MR as the instigator, and then LE comes out this week and indicates that there may be more arrests (notice the plural).

We know that TLM did not choose Tori at random. We know that the pair of them were not prepared for a kidnapping gone wrong, and now we are to understand that there may be more arrests?

Perhaps LE just let the first part leak because that is why they wanted people to believe at the time...

[mareseatoats]

Lovely, just all of it. First they arrest two and C Blatchford follows TM's lead and points to MR as the instigator, and then LE comes out this week and indicates that there may be more arrests (notice the plural).

We know that TLM did not choose Tori at random. We know that the pair of them were not prepared for a kidnapping gone wrong, and now we are to understand that there may be more arrests?

Perhaps LE just let the first part leak because that is why they wanted people to believe at the time...

I totally agree. I believe that every piece of info attributed to LE has been released for a reason. Very calculated. Even down to the use of certain words...nefarious.

[margaret_diane]

Lovely, just all of it. First they arrest two and C Blatchford follows TM's lead and points to MR as the instigator, and then LE comes out this week and indicates that there may be more arrests (notice the plural).

We know that TLM did not choose Tori at random. We know that the pair of them were not prepared for a kidnapping gone wrong, and now we are to understand that there may be more arrests?

Perhaps LE just let the first part leak because that is why they wanted people to believe at the time...

very interesting indeed!! And again, sorry for my wicked typos -- I sometimes use my cell phone to view this forum and respond to posts, but the keys are almost impossibly small and inevitably I miss letters here and there... and worse, when I edited a part of a sentence, I see that the phone copied and pasted to the wrong area... ughh. I actually was soo annoyed by my own post that I deleted it...

[Kamille]

Thank you so very much Kamille! So LE never officially released any of that info as part of a press release? Blatchford just heard it somewhere and decided to put it out there so every Tom Dick and Harry would read it (ignoring the allegedly part of course) and think that it was fact... She writes "It is alleged that..." without qualifying her source such as LE, or a reliable source or whatever. Who alleged?

I think the problem here is that there are others like me who know that they have heard that somewhere, but can't remember if it was LE or a reporter or whatever...

Just noticed too that she said that the same car was seen on videotape leaving shortly thereafter.... is that the mystery car that LE release the photo of? I thought the mystery car was more of a wagon? Agh!

Yes ChaChaCha, she was just reporting on rumours apparently. There is no way that LE would have released that information. They have released nothing that they didn't absolutely have to to try and advance the investigation.

[margaret_diane]

I'm gonna say that Ms. Blatchford has been around a LONNNNGGG time... I think I remember reading her articles a million years ago as a teen getting ready for school! If memory serves (and thats a BIIIGGG if!)... didn't she used to write for the Toronto Sun back in the 80s or 90s?? I don't recall what her beat was in those days, but I'm sure that along the way she made plenty of friends, and has a lot of secret sources.... probably some who are pretty credible as well.... wouldn't shock me to learn that she had a police officer friend, or a lawyer or a court clerk who'd processed the court files on her side, and spilling the beans......just sayin....

[mareseatoats]

Yes ChaChaCha, she was just reporting on rumours apparently. There is no way that LE would have released that information. They have released nothing that they didn't absolutely have to to try and advance the investigation.

And, it's that very tactical approach to this investigation that makes it obvious there's alot more to this then what we think we know today!!

[Turbododger]

FWIW
I live close to the Mount Forest area, some people here speculate that VS's little body was actually found by a member of the Mennonite community, who did not want to become involved (this is not unusual). Information was relayed to LE who in turn promised to "keep things quiet".
Just another theory.........

I don't doubt that there is some truth in the origin of this rumour. I do not think that a member of the Mennonite community found her. The reason for my opinion, is that I listened to Det.-Sgt.Smyth, and I truly believe when I heard him say so matter of factly the way it happened, that as he found things that led him in further up the laneway, he was then "startled" by what he found. If a Mennonite had "found" Tori, he would not likely have been startled by her remains, he would have been specifically going there. Actually, I don't think they would have sent him to investigate a report of her remains at all, FWIW, they would have sent the investigative search team.

The truth to the Mennonite origin, to me, is that since Det.-Sgt. Smyth was said to be canvassing the area, and talking to people in the are, that perhaps a Mennonite had someone call in a tip, and Smyth went to see them. Or perhaps he spoke to a Mennonite who told him about the laneway, or said something that made him seek that location out.

Not doubting you, Scarpetta, just stating my interpretation of Smyth's interview of how he found Tori.

[ChaChaCha]

I don't doubt that there is some truth in the origin of this rumour. I do not think that a member of the Mennonite community found her. The reason for my opinion, is that I listened to Det.-Sgt.Smyth, and I truly believe when I heard him say so matter of factly the way it happened, that as he found things that led him in further up the laneway, he was then "startled" by what he found. If a Mennonite had "found" Tori, he would not likely have been startled by her remains, he would have been specifically going there. Actually, I don't think they would have sent him to investigate a report of her remains at all, FWIW, they would have sent the investigative search team.

The truth to the Mennonite origin, to me, is that since Det.-Sgt. Smyth was said to be canvassing the area, and talking to people in the are, that perhaps a Mennonite had someone call in a tip, and Smyth went to see them. Or perhaps he spoke to a Mennonite who told him about the laneway, or said something that made him seek that location out.

Not doubting you, Scarpetta, just stating my interpretation of Smyth's interview of how he found Tori.

Turbo, I didn't see the Smyth interview, but do I recall correctly that they were working with "new" information? I would be less disturbed with the thought of a seasoned profiler finding remains than some innocent Mennonite boy goofing off under a tree. Can you imagine the trauma???

[Turbododger]

Does anyone else get that VIP Magic Dude Banner Ad at the side, usually at night, with the evil face and eyeballs?????

Man I just wish that would go away!!! :eek:

[antiquegirl]

Does anyone else remember the presser when TM said something along the line of "Why would I only protect one of my children (DS)"? That remark still sticks in my mind as well as MTR statement early Apr 8 on his FB account that good things were coming his way.
I feel like many others, that there is sooo much more to this case. Too many coincedences IMO. Hopefully the truth comes out and all involved are held accountable for their actions.

You know, I can barely remember what I had for dinner last night, but I have read the details of this case so many times that I recall way too many things with astonishing (to me) accuracy.

This statement from TM put the emphasis on the word "one". It stemmed from Facebook (and Woodstock residents') speculation that TM arranged to have Tori hidden to protect her from repercussions from the alleged "drug debt" rumoured at the time. It wasn't referring to DS, but to Tori. TM was implying that if she needed to protect Tori, she would have also wanted to protect her brother.

HTH

As for MTR's Facebook update, I personally think that wasn't related to the crime. He had connected with a new girl on POF and they had their first meeting four days later. I suspect it may have been referring to that. Seriously, if you were contemplating assaulting and/or murdering a child, would you give even a hint of it on Facebook?

MOO

[nonfictionrocks]

I'm gonna say that Ms. Blatchford has been around a LONNNNGGG time... I think I remember reading her articles a million years ago as a teen getting ready for school! If memory serves (and thats a BIIIGGG if!)... didn't she used to write for the Toronto Sun back in the 80s or 90s?? I don't recall what her beat was in those days, but I'm sure that along the way she made plenty of friends, and has a lot of secret sources.... probably some who are pretty credible as well.... wouldn't shock me to learn that she had a police officer friend, or a lawyer or a court clerk who'd processed the court files on her side, and spilling the beans......just sayin....

Blatchford is a veteran and a pro - if any of her contacts leaked anything to her they would have asked her to keep it to herself and she would have. She was too wrap up stating in this article that an apology was in order. JMO

[Hello_Kitty]

The below link is a complete timeline of the case:

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_36003.aspx

[Turbododger]

Just a few points I wanted to throw out there about various issues -- BUT FIRST A WARNING THAT THE POST I AM ABOUT TO MAKE MIGHT BE CONSIDERED GRAPHIC AND COULD BE UPSETTING TO THOSE READING IT... its not intended to be that way, but I fear it could be, hence the graphic post warning....

a) regarding whether her death was PLANNED by her abductors -- doesn't the fact that they have BOTH been charged now with 1st Degree Murder automatically imply that LE believe the murder was PREMEDIATED and therefore planned and rather calculated??

b) WARNING AGAIN THIS POINT MIGHT BE UPSETTING TO READ.....

In regards to the site where remains were found: have we considered at all that the placement of her remains might have been quite intentional?? Example, perhaps being left out in the open, under everyone's noses so to speak might have been a giant F YOU to Tori's loved ones from her killers?? The same could be said about the accused having driven about town presumably while Tori was captive -- stops at the HD, a brazen taking from the school area right through town in broad daylight..... Its possible that her placement in that field means that she was MEANT to be found there at some point, by someone (I won't hazard a guess as to who that someone might have been, but still -- that they wanted her found at a particular place in a particular state might have been why she was placed there -- hidden, but apparently not so hidden as to be assured of no chance of anyone really finding her accidentally)....

MD, are you referring to what I think you are referring to here?

Cha's fave subject?????

[ChaChaCha]

Does anyone else get that VIP Magic Dude Banner Ad at the side, usually at night, with the evil face and eyeballs?????

Man I just wish that would go away!!! :eek:

Gee, thanks.... I never noticed it before. Now I am freaked out. Make it go away!!!:viking:

[jhulford]

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/629037

Has this car been cleared?

[margaret_diane]

Gee, thanks.... I never noticed it before. Now I am freaked out. Make it go away!!!:viking:

what magic dude banner?? I get one for a Dell Computer... almost ALWAYS! LOL... Right now yours sounds more interesting if not creepy!! :woohoo:

[girl_next_door]

re: Mennonite finding the remains rumour

I think it was discussed before that Sgt Smith probably stumbled upon the remains "by accident" since he was by himself and if they were following up with a tip they would have sent two officers...?

[Turbododger]

No deal. Especially if that was not the case and some poor Mennonite boy got the shock of a lifetime while hanging out under a tree... Dunno though, I think we should check the press releases on this one too - if LE said that they were working with NEW information that came out, that meant that they were not necessarily working with TLM's info...

And here's a big what if....

What if a change in MR's representation led him to provide additional info that perhaps his earlier counsel had thought best to suppress?

LE definitely said that there was NEW information.

More than one detective, more than one interview. Definitely.

[ChaChaCha]

LE definitely said that there was NEW information.

More than one detective, more than one interview. Definitely.

But but but....

Is it not possible that the new info came from MR on the advice of his new counsel... this fits into the timeline, with Hal gone and a fresh approach....MR would at least know the nearest highways and the sideroad number (not like TLM and her wild copter rides) ??? of course, LE wouldn't release that little tidbit as info coming from MR... New counsel, new approach?

[margaret_diane]

MD, are you referring to what I think you are referring to here?

Cha's fave subject?????

I'm trying to decide here if this is some sort of drug debt retaliation, a personal snub (eg: perhaps TM peeved off TLM and CM and MR somehow and this was an attempt to peeve HER off in return?? Not the brightest idea, but seemingly not the brightest accused I've read about thus far either!).... perhaps it was a message to RS -- he WAS afterall reportedly once an Oxy user, and attending treatment (methadone)... while having returned to school apparently in the hopes of one day becoming a police officer... maybe he had someone in his past that was adamantly opposed to this and was using his daughter to demonstrate their opposition to this notion?? I really don't know... I have a ton of theories floating around but I'm not sure which one really strikes me as the most plausible at this time (probably because its late, I've been awake 22 hours, and my head is foggy!)....

I don't think it was random. I don't think it was planned (her death anyhow!). I think the idea was to pick her up from school and hide her for awhile (RS was to visit her that night -- possibly to hide her from HIM!?)... Recall that on the night of the abduction TM told RS something to the effect that it was:
- good he was running late (when he called to tell her he was behind schedule)
- because Tori wasn't home from school yet
- and that she (mom) hoped she wasn't missing

And then it turned out that Tori WAS missing!! Thats pretty major to me!! That slaps me as much as mom saying that someone took Tori and it got too big too fast, ect ect....... I also recall reading that TM's lie detector showed deceit on two questions which appeared to therefore indicate that she knew more than she had disclosed to LE, and something else (but I forget the second point!)..... I am NOT going to say that I think TM is guilty (except by way of her lifestyle which apparently led to her kids meeting some otherwise shady characters)...

Also that reminds me... Daryn had apparently commented to RS something about TLM and the coat and the hair dye... i wonder if he called her by name?? Did he refer to her as his mom's friend when talking to dad?? Had HE ever met TLM or been at her house???????

Sorry for the all over the map post... I think I've finally worn down and need to sleep!! I hope you all understand me well enough... but if I lost anyone... let me know... i'll clarify when i'm not sooooo exhausted!!

[mareseatoats]

I think it was discussed before that Sgt Smith probably stumbled upon the remains "by accident" since he was by himself and if they were following up with a tip they would have sent two officers...?

That's the information released anyway...that he was by himself, just driving around, on a Sunday afternoon, looking for places that matched a description of a location. Not in the area where they were searching...some distance away, and why --- because they were "considering" expanding the search area. So, that's one story. Then there's the other story --- received new information. And does anybody else find it rather curious that while she was discovered on Sunday afternoon, the word doesn't get out until Monday morning? I wonder just how much work was done at that scene before any press gathered with video cameras etc.

[nonfictionrocks]

I also heard that her body was not "hidden" just left out in plain view.
You?

Just wondering out aloud here. If the remains had been placed here since say April 8th, wouldn't the farmers been working in that area shortly thereafter starting to get the fields ready for planting. I am not questioning what you heard K just wondering if she was there the entire time before discovery.

[Hello_Kitty]

But but but....

Is it not possible that the new info came from MR on the advice of his new counsel... this fits into the timeline, with Hal gone and a fresh approach....MR would at least know the nearest highways and the sideroad number (not like TLM and her wild copter rides) ??? of course, LE wouldn't release that little tidbit as info coming from MR... New counsel, new approach?

And coming only two days after MR's latest court appearance. Very strange.

[PepperFritz]

I'm gonna say that Ms. Blatchford has been around a LONNNNGGG time... I think I remember reading her articles a million years ago as a teen getting ready for school! If memory serves (and thats a BIIIGGG if!)... didn't she used to write for the Toronto Sun back in the 80s or 90s?? I don't recall what her beat was in those days, but I'm sure that along the way she made plenty of friends, and has a lot of secret sources.... probably some who are pretty credible as well.... wouldn't shock me to learn that she had a police officer friend, or a lawyer or a court clerk who'd processed the court files on her side, and spilling the beans......just sayin....

I gotta agree with ya there, Margaret. I've followed Christie's career for many many years, and I've never known her to get it wrong, when all was said and done. When she says she's gotta a source that says XYZ, I sit up and take notice....

[margaret_diane]

That's the information released anyway...that he was by himself, just driving around, on a Sunday afternoon, looking for places that matched a description of a location. Not in the area where they were searching...some distance away, and why --- because they were "considering" expanding the search area. So, that's one story. Then there's the other story --- received new information. And does anybody else find it rather curious that while she was discovered on Sunday afternoon, the word doesn't get out until Monday morning? I wonder just how much work was done at that scene before any press gathered with video cameras etc.

Lets go with this point for a minute just for fun (bolded by me above)... imagine how much WORK was put into keeping the new search areas quiet?! Possibly sending smaller teams than usual into the "field" (area) to search... maybe not using their walkie talkies or CB radios to communicate with one another... I wonder how Officer Smyth advised his colleagues of his find? Did he phone it in?? Because otherwise, I imagine that someone might have picked it up over the scanners and media woudl have been EVERYWHERE!! I know for a FACT that MANY police scanners can be heard live via shoutcast.com... I listen to them for amusement sometimes... and if the CB WAS used... with WHAT pre-established code (this is my assumption only on a predetermined code to tell others of the find.... not fact).....

I think he probably used his cell to call the colleagues to join him, and they worked around the clock to get their work done before media arrived. I think they actually kept it sooo quiet that they themselves had to issue a press release on remains found (is this accurate??)....

I know they'd tape off the area, take pictures, and collect fibres and soil samples (friend is in forensics... and works at the Toronto facility where Tori's remains were taken)...... but I don't know WHEN this was done. The body was found on Sunday around noon (that I DO know) and brought into Toronto on the Monday.... they had a LOT of time to do what they needed without media being even aware of the event until the next day! You can believe they probably scoured that entire property and every route in and out of there with a fine toothed comb before we even knew anything had been discovered!!

[girl_next_door]

And does anybody else find it rather curious that while she was discovered on Sunday afternoon, the word doesn't get out until Monday morning? I wonder just how much work was done at that scene before any press gathered with video cameras etc.

The pics are during daylight... Mon morning?
LE probably needed some "privacy" at the beginning while getting forensics etc

[flipflop]

I'm trying to decide here if this is some sort of drug debt retaliation, a personal snub (eg: perhaps TM peeved off TLM and CM and MR somehow and this was an attempt to peeve HER off in return?? Not the brightest idea, but seemingly not the brightest accused I've read about thus far either!).... perhaps it was a message to RS -- he WAS afterall reportedly once an Oxy user, and attending treatment (methadone)... while having returned to school apparently in the hopes of one day becoming a police officer... maybe he had someone in his past that was adamantly opposed to this and was using his daughter to demonstrate their opposition to this notion?? I really don't know... I have a ton of theories floating around but I'm not sure which one really strikes me as the most plausible at this time (probably because its late, I've been awake 22 hours, and my head is foggy!)....

I don't think it was random. I don't think it was planned (her death anyhow!). I think the idea was to pick her up from school and hide her for awhile (RS was to visit her that night -- possibly to hide her from HIM!?)... Recall that on the night of the abduction TM told RS something to the effect that it was:
- good he was running late (when he called to tell her he was behind schedule)
- because Tori wasn't home from school yet
- and that she (mom) hoped she wasn't missing

And then it turned out that Tori WAS missing!! Thats pretty major to me!! That slaps me as much as mom saying that someone took Tori and it got too big too fast, ect ect....... I also recall reading that TM's lie detector showed deceit on two questions which appeared to therefore indicate that she knew more than she had disclosed to LE, and something else (but I forget the second point!)..... I am NOT going to say that I think TM is guilty (except by way of her lifestyle which apparently led to her kids meeting some otherwise shady characters)...

Also that reminds me... Daryn had apparently commented to RS something about TLM and the coat and the hair dye... i wonder if he called her by name?? Did he refer to her as his mom's friend when talking to dad?? Had HE ever met TLM or been at her house???????

Sorry for the all over the map post... I think I've finally worn down and need to sleep!! I hope you all understand me well enough... but if I lost anyone... let me know... i'll clarify when i'm not sooooo exhausted!!

Also the fact that Grandma went to the LE to report TS missing....this has always been a big factor to me that TM was not worried, but grandma was as she didnt know whatever TM knew. JMO

[margaret_diane]

I think the forensic people stayed after the remains were removed to gather up the soil and other debris from under where the body had been... and I'd also be interested to know how that pine tree is doing now?? Are there peices of bark missing -- branches gone? Roots cut into or torn out?? I ask because having just googled forensic investigation techniques I have learned all about how plants and trees help investigators by retaining interesting information in their roots (eg sometimes turning color, or holding fluids or chemicals from decomposition), stems and leaves...... very interesting stuff and not too gory to read I might add........ I also saw someone's pictures (flip flop I think was the photographer) that showed teh laneway gated now with a no trespassing sign up.... soooo does anyone know the condition of the tree?? In most pictures, the circumference of the tree out to several feet in diameter appears raked to me..... they appeared to have been super thorough! OOoooo I wonder what pine cones might hold as evidence (if any were found I do not know!)... and maybe sap from the tree on the body might give more clues????

[Turbododger]

But but but....

Is it not possible that the new info came from MR on the advice of his new counsel... this fits into the timeline, with Hal gone and a fresh approach....MR would at least know the nearest highways and the sideroad number (not like TLM and her wild copter rides) ??? of course, LE wouldn't release that little tidbit as info coming from MR... New counsel, new approach?

Oh, for sure.

New counsel, new info. Not likely, to me, Rafferty declaring his innocence and all. I doubt it was from him.

Now, the outgoing one....

I think it is probably just a big, fat, coincidence.

Like many other things in this case, I might add. :headache: :nerves: :shakehead:

[flipflop]

I gotta agree with ya there, Margaret. I've followed Christie's career for many many years, and I've never known her to get it wrong, when all was said and done. When she says she's gotta a source that says XYZ, I sit up and take notice....

Her articles always seem to be about murdered victims (the ones that I have read anyways) which makes me think she has some source from Special Investigations or along that line.

[antiquegirl]

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/629037

Has this car been cleared?

I had heard rumours that they found the owner of this vehicle and that person gave LE whatever (s)he had seen. It was being sought as a witness to the abduction. Since LE never mentioned it again after the first time, I think we can safely believe that they got what they wanted.

MOO

[nonfictionrocks]

Her articles always seem to be about murdered victims (the ones that I have read anyways) which makes me think she has some source from Special Investigations or along that line.

All the more reason why she would not leak info from a source - she would be concerned about jeopardizing an on-going police investigation - TS had yet to be found when Blatchford wrote this article.

[antiquegirl]

Oh, for sure.

New counsel, new info. Not likely, to me, Rafferty declaring his innocence and all. I doubt it was from him.

Now, the outgoing one....

I think it is probably just a big, fat, coincidence.

Like many other things in this case, I might add. :headache: :nerves: :shakehead:

ITA. Admitting any knowledge of the location of the remains is admitting guilt of the crime. If MTR wants to continue to plead not guilty, he can never reveal any info on the location.

MOO

[Kamille]

[/B]

Lets go with this point for a minute just for fun (bolded by me above)... imagine how much WORK was put into keeping the new search areas quiet?! Possibly sending smaller teams than usual into the "field" (area) to search... maybe not using their walkie talkies or CB radios to communicate with one another... I wonder how Officer Smyth advised his colleagues of his find? Did he phone it in?? Because otherwise, I imagine that someone might have picked it up over the scanners and media woudl have been EVERYWHERE!! I know for a FACT that MANY police scanners can be heard live via shoutcast.com... I listen to them for amusement sometimes... and if the CB WAS used... with WHAT pre-established code (this is my assumption only on a predetermined code to tell others of the find.... not fact).....

I think he probably used his cell to call the colleagues to join him, and they worked around the clock to get their work done before media arrived. I think they actually kept it sooo quiet that they themselves had to issue a press release on remains found (is this accurate??)....

I know they'd tape off the area, take pictures, and collect fibres and soil samples (friend is in forensics... and works at the Toronto facility where Tori's remains were taken)...... but I don't know WHEN this was done. The body was found on Sunday around noon (that I DO know) and brought into Toronto on the Monday.... they had a LOT of time to do what they needed without media being even aware of the event until the next day! You can believe they probably scoured that entire property and every route in and out of there with a fine toothed comb before we even knew anything had been discovered!!

I think all your points above indicate just how secluded this area was for the disposal of the remains in the first place. And for what it's worth, while it's interesting to read the speculation that there is more to this case than what we know and others may be involved, there are two people charged and LE is preparing to go to trial with a mountain of evidence against them. At this point I really don't think it's anything more than that.

[flipflop]

I think the forensic people stayed after the remains were removed to gather up the soil and other debris from under where the body had been... and I'd also be interested to know how that pine tree is doing now?? Are there peices of bark missing -- branches gone? Roots cut into or torn out?? I ask because having just googled forensic investigation techniques I have learned all about how plants and trees help investigators by retaining interesting information in their roots (eg sometimes turning color, or holding fluids or chemicals from decomposition), stems and leaves...... very interesting stuff and not too gory to read I might add........ I also saw someone's pictures (flip flop I think was the photographer) that showed teh laneway gated now with a no trespassing sign up.... soooo does anyone know the condition of the tree?? In most pictures, the circumference of the tree out to several feet in diameter appears raked to me..... they appeared to have been super thorough! OOoooo I wonder what pine cones might hold as evidence (if any were found I do not know!)... and maybe sap from the tree on the body might give more clues????

The sign on the gate is not from the land owner, it is a Criminal Trespassing notice from LE. No one can get anywhere near that tree.
Thanks for that interesting info on the tree bark and roots.

[antiquegirl]

Also the fact that Grandma went to the LE to report TS missing....this has always been a big factor to me that TM was not worried, but grandma was as she didnt know whatever TM knew. JMO


Well, far be it for me to defend TM, but her story was that both she and Grandma went looking at first, then TM was dropped off at home, so that she could phone Tori's friends and be there if she turned up. At least, this is what she had said and it could very easily be proved or disproved by phone records.

[girl_next_door]

And for what it's worth, while it's interesting to read the speculation that there is more to this case than what we know and others may be involved, there are two people charged and LE is preparing to go to trial with a mountain of evidence against them. At this point I really don't think it's anything more than that.

Can people be charged for playing a very minor role in the case though? i.e. knowing things and not reporting them, helping out by driving, etc

[antiquegirl]

The pics are during daylight... Mon morning?
LE probably needed some "privacy" at the beginning while getting forensics etc

Yes, the media didn't get there until Monday morning. Don't forget that before releasing this info to the press, LE wanted to let the family know first. IIRC, they were told late Sunday night (without positive ID yet, of course).

ITA that LE and the forensics team must have done a very thorough examination and gathering of possible evidence at the scene long before the media was informed and I posted that earlier.

MOO

[scotslass]

The location where Tori was found has been bothering me for days now but it finally dawned on me why. I believe it was mount forest that had an attempted abduction by a man in a black four door car just days before Tori was taken. This was in the press around the times of reported abductions that turned out to be false in the fergus area. I have all the links saved but don't have time now to go through them all ( I will though) and hoping someone may recall this or have the link handy.

Anyone or am i wrong in surmising it was Mt Forest.?

[Hello_Kitty]

Can people be charged for playing a very minor role in the case though? i.e. knowing things and not reporting them, helping out by driving, etc

If they knew something and it was proven they did and did not disclose to the police upon being asked, would they not be guilty of obstructing justice? And if they helped out by driving, they could be charged with accessory? Altho I have no knowledge of the law, it seems to make sense to me. Maybe someone else can confirm.

[antiquegirl]

That's the information released anyway...that he was by himself, just driving around, on a Sunday afternoon, looking for places that matched a description of a location. Not in the area where they were searching...some distance away, and why --- because they were "considering" expanding the search area. So, that's one story. Then there's the other story --- received new information. And does anybody else find it rather curious that while she was discovered on Sunday afternoon, the word doesn't get out until Monday morning? I wonder just how much work was done at that scene before any press gathered with video cameras etc.

Respectfully, I don't see why the two pieces of information are necessarily mutually exclusive. They could have received new information, which led them to expand the search, which led Smyth, et al, to canvass residents in the new area, which by chance led Smyth to the familiar landmarks provided previously, and thus eventually to the remains. As LE said, "good police work" (or something like that).

MOO

[sillybilly]

It wasn't LE, it was said by Christie Blatchford in one of her articles. Wish I could find the article again.

Christie Blatchford's article doesn't seem to exist at the Globe & Mail, but can still be found referenced in other sites by googling +blatchford +"nefarious purposes". This was discussed at length in the rumour thread. The difference was that Christie Blatchford used the term "nefarious purposes" while Sue Sgambati with CTV said her sources told her it was for "sexual purposes".

The Sue Sgambati video is still available at CTV:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090520/stafford_arrest_090520/20090520?hub=Toronto

On the right, see video titled: "Canada AM: Sue Sgambati on why police are describing the development as a 'worst case scenario' "

At about 1:55, Sgambati says her sources indicate "Tori was abducted for sexual purposes"

I'm inclined to go with Sgambati's comment, because it is more specific, while "nefarious" means just evil in general, of which category "sexual" would fall under.

[Guelphite]

The location where Tori was found has been bothering me for days now but it finally dawned on me why. I believe it was mount forest that had an attempted abduction by a man in a black four door car just days before Tori was taken. This was in the press around the times of reported abductions that turned out to be false in the fergus area. I have all the links saved but don't have time now to go through them all ( I will though) and hoping someone may recall this or have the link handy.

Anyone or am i wrong in surmising it was Mt Forest.?

I believe you are correct. I'm too tired to look it up now but maybe AG has it handy??

[flipflop]

The location where Tori was found has been bothering me for days now but it finally dawned on me why. I believe it was mount forest that had an attempted abduction by a man in a black four door car just days before Tori was taken. This was in the press around the times of reported abductions that turned out to be false in the fergus area. I have all the links saved but don't have time now to go through them all ( I will though) and hoping someone may recall this or have the link handy.

Anyone or am i wrong in surmising it was Mt Forest.?

Yes it was 5 days before Tori went missing. The description was a dark coloured 4 door car, man had a pocked marked face and shoulder length black straggled hair. However, a week later there was a statement on crimealerts that this attempted abduction was "unfounded". The girl was questioned again as Tori was missing the girl admitted that she made the story up.

Media reports kept printing this attempted abduction after Tori went missing, I guess they missed the fact that it was not true.

[antiquegirl]

If they knew something and it was proven they did and did not disclose to the police upon being asked, would they not be guilty of obstructing justice? And if they helped out by driving, they could be charged with accessory? Altho I have no knowledge of the law, it seems to make sense to me. Maybe someone else can confirm.

I don't know much about law either, but the first part sounds right (obstruction). However, I believe that anyone driving the car that held the victim would be just as guilty of kidnapping (and murder, as per the law) as whoever planned it or was directly responsible for the death.

MOO

[antiquegirl]

I believe you are correct. I'm too tired to look it up now but maybe AG has it handy??

"The driver was described as a white man, 30 to 40 years old, about six feet tall with a skinny build, shoulder-length black hair, a goatee and a rough, pimpled complexion."

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278

[flipflop]

That's the information released anyway...that he was by himself, just driving around, on a Sunday afternoon, looking for places that matched a description of a location. Not in the area where they were searching...some distance away, and why --- because they were "considering" expanding the search area. So, that's one story. Then there's the other story --- received new information. And does anybody else find it rather curious that while she was discovered on Sunday afternoon, the word doesn't get out until Monday morning? I wonder just how much work was done at that scene before any press gathered with video cameras etc.

Media found out monday morning, therefore Toris remains were not moved until then as the media caught the hearse driving out of the lane with the LE saluting her.

[antiquegirl]

Does anyone have a media link where it was said that there might be more arrests? I must have missed this when I was on vacation. TIA

[scotslass]

Yes it was 3 days before Tori went missing. The description was a dark coloured 4 door car, man had a pocked marked face and shoulder length black straggled hair. However, a week later there was a statement on crimealerts that this attempted abduction was "unfounded". The girl was questioned again as Tori was missing the girl admitted that she made the story up.

Media reports kept printing this attempted abduction after Tori went missing, I guess they missed the fact that it was not true.

Thanks, just seemed odd that the same location and an abduction attempt around the same time kwim.. Glad it was unfounded and the girl was not in harms way.

[girl_next_door]

"The driver was described as a white man, 30 to 40 years old, about six feet tall with a skinny build, shoulder-length black hair, a goatee and a rough, pimpled complexion."

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278

That article describes MR as being dark haired and "heavy-set, if not overweight".

Is it just me or is that not accurate??
I looked at pics of him again and his hair was darker than I for some reason remembered (dirty blonde). But I wouldn't say he's overweight. You can see his stomach in the photos of his arrest with his shirt over his head.
Just interesting how facts are reported...

[sillybilly]

If they knew something and it was proven they did and did not disclose to the police upon being asked, would they not be guilty of obstructing justice? And if they helped out by driving, they could be charged with accessory? Altho I have no knowledge of the law, it seems to make sense to me. Maybe someone else can confirm.

My understanding is that, under Canadian law, nobody is required to come forward with information about knowledge of a crime. If, however, in the course of an investigation, they lie or attempt to otherwise thwart the investigation, they can then be charged with obstruction of justice.

If someone physically participated or aided in a crime, they could be charged as an accessory.

[flipflop]

Thanks, just seemed odd that the same location and an abduction attempt around the same time kwim.. Glad it was unfounded and the girl was not in harms way.

I found the article that this attempted abduction is a hoax....
http://www.radioowensound.com/news_item.php?NewsID=12364

[flipflop]

That article describes MR as being dark haired and "heavy-set, if not overweight".

Is it just me or is that not accurate??
I looked at pics of him again and his hair was darker than I for some reason remembered (dirty blonde). But I wouldn't say he's overweight. You can see his stomach in the photos of his arrest with his shirt over his head.
Just interesting how facts are reported...

THe girl that gave this description made the whole story up!

[sillybilly]

Does anyone have a media link where it was said that there might be more arrests? I must have missed this when I was on vacation. TIA

Originally Posted by jennifer9999
Not sure if anyone noticed this, but when RS addressed the media on Monday, he mentioned that "maybe other individuals could be involved". Does he suspect something he can't be specific about? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by sillybilly
<snip>

Can't/won't go into specifics jennifer, but that's been my theory for quite some time. For those who didn't watch the entire presser, RS said in part:

"...The investigation is still going; there is a possibility that other individuals could be involved, but we don't know that and I'm not going to speculate. We'll wait and see what comes up."

BBM

Sorry I don't have the links offhand AG, but ...

Additionally, in a recent interview when asked by the reporter if others were involved, Acting Chief Freeman indicated he wasn't going to answer that question.

[girl_next_door]

THe girl that gave this description made the whole story up!

yeah, I know, but it was an OPP officer that gave that description of MR (he was comparing this other 'suspect' to MR before they found out it was made up)

[jhulford]

The Fergus attempt was bogus, but the Mt Forest one seems genuine.

However, there was a reported alleged attempted abduction on Fergus Street South in Mount Forest five days before Stafford went missing.

On April 3, an 11-year-old girl fled what OPP called an attempted abduction at about 3:50 p.m. The girl was walking home from school near King Street in Mount Forest when a car approached her. A man tried to convince the girl to approach the car but she refused. The man then got out of the car, and tried to grab her arm, but the girl fled the scene.

The suspect fled in his car, an older-model, black four-door car.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278

Aren't both TLM an MR light haired, if not (dirty) blonde?

[jhulford]

Ok, so this is the same 11 y/o then...

[flipflop]

The Fergus attempt was bogus, but the Mt Forest one seems genuine.



http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278

Aren't both TLM an MR light haired, if not (dirty) blonde?

Mt Forest one was a hoax
http://www.radioowensound.com/news_item.php?NewsID=12364

[antiquegirl]

My understanding is that, under Canadian law, nobody is required to come forward with information about knowledge of a crime. If, however, in the course of an investigation, they lie or attempt to otherwise thwart the investigation, they can then be charged with obstruction of justice.

If someone physically participated or aided in a crime, they could be charged as an accessory.


BBM

Billy, I would have to do some research on this, but if someone "participated" in the crime, wouldn't they be guilty of the crime and not just an accessory?

There is a charge of "aiding and abetting" and "accessory-after-the-fact", but I'm not familiar with a charge of just "accessory" to a crime.

I wish PepperFitz were around because I think she could clarify this.

[TooCloseForComfort]

hope this helps...

i hope this is right, if not please feel free to remove.. i did the best i could with the information i found online about where it is, to compile these google map photos....

RIP beautiful girl....