Legal Questions

[daisy7]

This thread is to discuss legal stuff.

SuziQ posted earlier the indictments:

http://blogs.findlaw.com/courtside/2009/08/fla-grand-jury-indicts-7-for-billings-family-murders.html

I notice that it says on the indictment for Sr. that it says he did kill and murder Byrd Billings with a firearm. But, Sr. stayed in the red van outside, as stated by ECSO (sorry, don't have the link handy).

So, why is this in his indictment? I look forward to hearing from our legal experts.

[JBean]

sounds like felony murder law to me. if you are in the act of committing a felony (in some states) and someone is killed in the course of that felony, it doesn't matter if you pulled the trigger or not you will be charged with felony murder.
If the bank guard gets killed at the bank robbery, the poor sap sitting in the getaway car is also going to be charged with murder. It is the totality of the committed crime that is taken into consideration for all involved in this conspiracy. I can't see the charge but is it like
782.04 1 (a) 2? or something like that? I cannot recall the ruling murder code but in FL premeditated murder is listed first and then felony murder is 2nd.

herer are the FL statutes:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

[JBean]

easy to read version

http://www.not-guilty.net/practice-areas/murder.html
http://www.jeffreyfeiler.com/murder.html

To prove first degree premeditated murder the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim is dead, that the death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant, and that there was a premeditated killing of the victim. For purposes of the jury instructions the court defined "killing with premeditation" as killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. While the law does not set a particular amount of time that must pass between the premeditated intent to kill and the killing but enough time must pass for reflection by the defendant. The question of whether or not premeditation existed at the time of the killing is a question of fact to be determined by a jury. The jury instructions further clarify that if during the premeditated attempted murder of one person the defendant actually kills another person that killing is also to be considered as premeditated.

To prove the crime of first degree felony murder the state of Florida must prove (1) that the victim is dead; (2) that the death occurred as a consequence of and while the defendant was engaged in the commission of a crime, or that the death occurred as a consequence of and while the defendant was attempting to commit another crime, or that the death occurred as a consequence of and while the defendant or an accomplice as escaping from the immediate scene of another crime; and (3) that the defendant was the person who actually killed the victim or that the victim was killed by a person other than the defendant but both the defendant and the person who killed the victim were principals in the commission of another time. However, under this slightly different charge it is not necessary for the state of Florida to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to

[pinkinablueworld]

FYI
Today's PNJ article confirms some posters assumptions that attorney Crystal Spencer is no longer the family spokesperson.

"Pensacola attorney Robert Beasley, who has replaced Crystal Spencer as the family's attorney, said the family decided to reveal the existence of the second safe and the cash it contained to dispel rampant speculation."

http://pnj.com/article/20090812/NEWS01/908120332

[pinkinablueworld]

legal eagles...what/why would Ashley and Mark Markham file a civil suit against William Eddins and the 8 perps today? Am I reading this correctly? I don't understand a "DECLARATORY JUDGMENT"


http://www.escambiaclerk.com/xml/xml.asp?ucase_id=21776646

Plaintiff MARKHAM, ASHLEY
Attorney: WILSON, ESQ. PAUL A.
2 Plaintiff MARKHAM, JAMES
Attorney: WILSON, ESQ. PAUL A.
3 Defendant WILLIAM EDDINS STATE ATTORNEY,

4 Defendant GONZALEZ, LEONARD PATRICK

5 Defendant COLDIRON, WAYNE THOMAS

6 Defendant GONZALEZ, LEONARD PATRICK

7 Defendant SUMNER, GARY LAMONT

8 Defendant THORNTON, FREDRICK LEE

9 Defendant WIGGINS, PAMELA LONG

10 Defendant STALLWORTH, DONNIE RAY XRef-ID: 675699

11 Defendant FLORENCE, RAHEEM CHAVEZ XRef-ID: 65315054

[daisy7]

Interesting. I can see why she would file a civil suit against the perps., but wonder why Eddins is listed as a defendant.:confused:

And, this is an attorney I don't believe we've heard of before.

[swika]

don't have a clue .... only wondering if it has anything to do with the Soverign status and name copyrights. We don't know what papers were in the small safe.

[swika]

And, this is an attorney I don't believe we've heard of before.

Good catch, Daisy.

Paul A. Wilson: Don't know if this is current info?

Practice Areas: Construction Law; Business Litigation; Landlord and Tenant Law; Commercial Collections; Uniform Commercial Code; Corporate Law; Real Estate Litigation; Materialmens Liens



http://www.lawyers.com/Florida/Pensacola/Litvak-Beasley-and-Wilson,-LLP-2677430-f.html

[BillyBob]

Mabey she want the 164,000 dollars..................

[pinkinablueworld]

Interesting. I can see why she would file a civil suit against the perps., but wonder why Eddins is listed as a defendant.:confused:

And, this is an attorney I don't believe we've heard of before.

I believe Paul Wilson is one of Robert Beasley's partners. Robert handled all the guardianship issues, and is now acting as the family attorney.

[swika]

Declaratory Judgment

Snipped from nolo.com (glossary)

A court decision in a civil case that tells the parties what their rights and responsibilities are, without awarding damages or ordering them to do anything. Unlike most court cases, where the plaintiff asks for damages or other court orders, the plaintiff in a declaratory judgment case simply wants the court to resolve an uncertainty so that it can avoid serious legal trouble in the future.

Courts are usually reluctant to hear declaratory judgment cases, preferring to wait until there has been a measurable loss. But especially in cases involving important constitutional rights, courts will step in to clarify the legal landscape.

[redfish]

Declaratory Judgment

Snipped from nolo.com (glossary)

A court decision in a civil case that tells the parties what their rights and responsibilities are, without awarding damages or ordering them to do anything. Unlike most court cases, where the plaintiff asks for damages or other court orders, the plaintiff in a declaratory judgment case simply wants the court to resolve an uncertainty so that it can avoid serious legal trouble in the future.

Courts are usually reluctant to hear declaratory judgment cases, preferring to wait until there has been a measurable loss. But especially in cases involving important constitutional rights, courts will step in to clarify the legal landscape.

Wow, I may be wrong on this, it sounds to me like something is missing from the safe (nt recovered) and they think it may implicate them in someway for something...... want that clarified for them fast....???????? Do I have it wrong?

[redfish]

oooo, oooo, IRS maybe the cash in the safe!

[JBean]

Wow, I may be wrong on this, it sounds to me like something is missing from the safe (nt recovered) and they think it may implicate them in someway for something...... want that clarified for them fast....???????? Do I have it wrong?No I don't think so. I think they are looking for advise as to their legal standing with respect to something... They get a ruling up front so they avoid doing anything illegal or inappropriate.

The point is to make sure you do not do something wrong in the future.

[RiverPirate]

legal eagles...what/why would Ashley and Mark Markham file a civil suit against William Eddins and the 8 perps today? Am I reading this correctly? I don't understand a "DECLARATORY JUDGMENT"


http://www.escambiaclerk.com/xml/xml.asp?ucase_id=21776646



Just a guess. Maybe they have to file to get the property that was in the stolen safe back from the state. Wasn't there family jewelry and business documents in the safe?

[Lindadanette]

I was thinking that maybe they were asking the court to prohibit the perps from profiting by selling their stories etc.

[afm]

http://ricksblog.biz/?p=7172

[daisy7]

http://ricksblog.biz/?p=7172

Thanks, afm!

I wonder why Morgan wasn't included in this?

ETA: It'll be interesting to see what happens with this re Sunshine Laws.

[CountryGirl]

http://pnj.com/article/20090813/NEWS01/90813020
The surviving members of Byrd and Melanie Billings’ family have asked the court to block public access to crime scene photos and video surveillance footage from her parents' home.

Ashley Markham, daughter of the Beulah couple shot to death on July 9, asks that the State Attorney’s Office be barred from releasing the photos and video to the co-defendants and the public, including the media.

Under state law, the usual process is for the state to release documents to be used in prosecutions to the defendants’ lawyers during the “discovery process.” At the same time, the documents become open to the public.

However, Markham’s motion argues: “The only media or public interest in the information arises out of morbid exploitation by some members of the public and the sensationalism surrounding the criminal case.”

I can understand Ashley not wanting this released to the public, but doesn't the defense have a right to this? I don't know Florida law, but if the prosecution uses it, the defense has a right to have it. Correct?

I would think these tapes are vital to the prosecution.

[daisy7]

http://pnj.com/article/20090813/NEWS01/90813020
The surviving members of Byrd and Melanie Billings’ family have asked the court to block public access to crime scene photos and video surveillance footage from her parents' home.

Ashley Markham, daughter of the Beulah couple shot to death on July 9, asks that the State Attorney’s Office be barred from releasing the photos and video to the co-defendants and the public, including the media.

Under state law, the usual process is for the state to release documents to be used in prosecutions to the defendants’ lawyers during the “discovery process.” At the same time, the documents become open to the public.

However, Markham’s motion argues: “The only media or public interest in the information arises out of morbid exploitation by some members of the public and the sensationalism surrounding the criminal case.”

I can understand Ashley not wanting this released to the public, but doesn't the defense have a right to this? I don't know Florida law, but if the prosecution uses it, the defense has a right to have it. Correct?

I would think these tapes are vital to the prosecution.

Under Sunshine Laws, discovery is released to the public, usually by a public records request of the media, at the same time or shortly after discovery is given to the defense.

I don't think this motion is trying to keep discovery from the defense (I don't think that's legal in any way), but only trying to keep it from the media and the public. And, only for the photos and videos.

[papp6977]

I have to wonder,on the part that says."could defame the Billings good name" on the paperwork filed by Ashleys lawyers,what could be on there that could defame their good name?

[Gene]

http://pnj.com/article/20090813/NEWS01/90813020

I can understand Ashley not wanting this released to the public, but doesn't the defense have a right to this? I don't know Florida law, but if the prosecution uses it, the defense has a right to have it. Correct?

I would think these tapes are vital to the prosecution.

Totally agree. I would understand if the tapes and photos are kept from the public, but NOT if it means excluding them totally from the trial. If the tapes and photos ARE excluded from the trial, I will be VERY disappointed in the Markhams. The first priority should be the successful prosecution of the case.

The Markham's have already done one thing which surprised me. They allowed their new lawyer Beasley to make, what I consider a very odd comment:

On Friday, an attorney for the Billings family cast doubt on Tice's possible involvement in the murder case. "He thought the world of Melanie. She was a saintly person. He really had a true affection for her," attorney Robert Beasley said. "It would be difficult to believe that Cab would be involved with her getting hurt."

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090808/NEWS01/908080329&template=printart

Now why would Beasley make a comment like that??????????? Shouldn't he allow the Morgan and Eddins to do their jobs without interference?

If the tapes and photos are excluded from the trial, I will begin to wonder about the Markham's/Beasley's intentions...

[RiverPirate]

Can they ask for the tapes to be held from the defendants and then enter them at a later date and allow the defendants access?

Eddins says it will probably be a year before this gets going anyways.

I understand the tapes become public property when the defense gets them. Can they rule they can't allow the public to have them under the circumstances? I know I wouldn't want the entire country to watch my folks get executed on youtube.

Another thing. It's possible the defense knows they don't need the tapes. The defendants have already started pointing fingers at each other and admitted they were there. Do the tapes really help considering their identities are disguised?

Tapes or no tapes, there probably isn't a soul in Escambia County that isn't gonna convict this bunch anyways.

[Lossmitpro]

Markham’s motion argues: “The only media or public interest in the information arises out of morbid exploitation by some members of the public and the sensationalism surrounding the criminal case.”

That's ridiculous on the face of it.

So, in lesser publicized and less heinous crimes, the public's right to know is somehow legitimate and proper; but in this case, the public's interest is suddenly ONLY the morbid exploitation of the facts?

This totally fails the 'run it up the flag pole test', and I would guess was only filed due to insistence of Ashley.

I appreciate the *sentiment* that goes into the desire to file such a motion, but not in the actual filing or approval of it, which will surely fail.

[LaceSprocket]

Totally agree. I would understand if the tapes and photos are kept from the public, but NOT if it means excluding them totally from the trial. If the tapes and photos ARE excluded from the trial, I will be VERY disappointed in the Markhams. The first priority should be the successful prosecution of the case.

The Markham's have already done one thing which surprised me. They allowed their new lawyer Beasley to make, what I consider a very odd comment:

On Friday, an attorney for the Billings family cast doubt on Tice's possible involvement in the murder case. "He thought the world of Melanie. She was a saintly person. He really had a true affection for her," attorney Robert Beasley said. "It would be difficult to believe that Cab would be involved with her getting hurt."

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090808/NEWS01/908080329&template=printart

Now why would Beasley make a comment like that??????????? Shouldn't he allow the Morgan and Eddins to do their jobs without interference?

If the tapes and photos are excluded from the trial, I will begin to wonder about the Markham's/Beasley's intentions...

I agree with you.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Beasley thinks there is someone higher the food chain who needs to come down - perhaps he's playing a game with Tice, getting him on their side, so he'll talk - and become a witness for the prosecution, in exchange for implicating someone much bigger and perhaps...more responsible.

Just a guess.

[megamami]

The Markham's have already done one thing which surprised me. They allowed their new lawyer Beasley to make, what I consider a very odd comment:

On Friday, an attorney for the Billings family cast doubt on Tice's possible involvement in the murder case. "He thought the world of Melanie. She was a saintly person. He really had a true affection for her," attorney Robert Beasley said. "It would be difficult to believe that Cab would be involved with her getting hurt."

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090808/NEWS01/908080329&template=printart

Now why would Beasley make a comment like that??????????? Shouldn't he allow the Morgan and Eddins to do their jobs without interference?



Yes, several people have asked that also locally. It seems like such a strange thing to say indeed. Wasn't this same attorney the one alleging that Tice was possibly selling off cars behind Billings back out of the country? And if it was a bungled robbery as they were trying to put forth, it wouldn't matter if someone's intentions towards Melanie were wonderful. But if Beasley also believes it was a planned murder...a hit.

And how does everyone know (including the family's bussiness/real estate lawyer) that Tice was so attached to Melanie? Tice must have really been close to the family at one time, even if Beasely is getting this information from the daughter.
I don't understand ruling out anyone in such a bizarre case as this. But they do have much more information than I do.

[Gene]

Yes, several people have asked that also locally. It seems like such a strange thing to say indeed. Wasn't this same attorney the one alleging that Tice was possibly selling off cars behind Billings back out of the country? And if it was a bungled robbery as they were trying to put forth, it wouldn't matter if someone's intentions towards Melanie were wonderful. But if Beasley also believes it was a planned murder...a hit.

And how does everyone know (including the family's bussiness/real estate lawyer) that Tice was so attached to Melanie? Tice must have really been close to the family at one time, even if Beasely is getting this information from the daughter.
I don't understand ruling out anyone in such a bizarre case as this. But they do have much more information than I do.

A good attorney knows when to speak and when to keep quiet. I was not really wild about the Markham's first choice in attorneys and now I am doubting their second choice.

Let's hope that this recent step does not completely eliminate the use of the photos and videos from the trial....

[TigerTiger]

Interesting post on Billings case by TX attorney following it -- Websleuths mentioned! -- and attry looks to give more than 2 word answers in the comments too

http://backseatlawyer.blogspot.com/2009/08/byrd-and-melanie-billings-murder-in.html

[daisy7]

Interesting post on Billings case by TX attorney following it -- Websleuths mentioned! -- and attry looks to give more than 2 word answers in the comments too

http://backseatlawyer.blogspot.com/2009/08/byrd-and-melanie-billings-murder-in.html

Thanks for posting this, Tiger! Snipped from your link:

Where are the Billings "document dumps"?

I love that he calls this a doc. dump, cuz that's what we call it here:) And, it seems there will be a doc. dump. on Monday:

Eddins said he will release other material in the case, including defendants' statements to law officers, on Monday. He called that material "voluminous."

http://pnj.com/article/20090814/NEWS01/908140320/-1/special

If media doesn't get it to us, I'll be :furious:

I really don't understand how Sunshine works with how it is decided what will be released and when. We still haven't heard the 911 call.

[CountryGirl]

I wonder what new things we'll learn tomorrow. Strange case.

[Gene]

I really don't understand how Sunshine works with how it is decided what will be released and when. We still haven't heard the 911 call.
Just did a little research about the Sunshine Laws on the official site:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Media links **NO DISCUSSION**

[Miss Muffet]

Billings Family Seeks To Keep Video From Being Made Public; Suspects Arraigned
August 14, 2009
The family of Byrd and Melanie Billings has asked a judge to rule that certain evidence, including security camera video footage of the execution style murders of Byrd and Melanie Billings, not be released to the public. That request came Thursday afternoon, just hours after the seven murder suspects all entered not guilty pleas to the crime.

“The only media or public interest in the information arises out of morbid exploitation by some members of the public and the sensationalism surrounding the criminal case,” Billings daughter Ashely Markham’s motion for a declaratory judgment said. The motion was filed in Escambia County Circuit Court last Wednesday afternoon.

The motion also argued that the documents and video would defame the Billings’ good name and place their nine adoptive children in danger. The motion states that at least one of the children appears in the video recordings from inside the home during the July 9 murders.

http://www.northescambia.com/?p=10139
I'm blown away by this news.

I always thought it was odd that the Billings' family hired a lawyer to protect the reputation of the victims.

Now it's reported that a court motion argues that documents and the video would defame their good name.

Would, not could, not might, but would.

How on earth would the video defame their reputations?

If there are documents that would defame their good name, doesn't that mean that the name wasn't/isn't really good?

[justathought]

There was query on another thread about defamation but I believe JBean said such conversation should be on this thread so...In Louisiana, the crime of defamation of the dead is, in effect, a crime against the state, and the statute was not designed to protect an individual's interest in preserving the memory of a deceased person. The State Supreme Court held this view when the family of a murdered man sued a TV station over reporting it was believed the man's murder was due to gambling debts and ties to organized crime. Generally, this whole issue in Louisiana is referred to basically as "you can't defame the dead." So, it will be interesting to see how the courts in Florida rule....I would think the sunshine laws would prevail over "preservation of the good name". Now, the judge might find some other reason to withhold that evidence in camera...or gag orders might be issued.....so it's going to be interesting to watch.
The one thing that seems to be certain there is more going on here than has been revealed so far.

[JBean]

Just did a little research about the Sunshine Laws on the official site:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Media links **NO DISCUSSION** (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051045&postcount=81)


Those of you that followed the Caylee Anthony forum know we learned a LOT about the Sunshine Laws. Here is a thread that may help.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78590&highlight=sunshine

[Miss Muffet]

Nope. Not about gossip. It's about a newspaper article.

It's about how the family hired a lawyer to protect the reputations of the Billings.

It's about the lawyer filing a motion to keep evidence from becoming public to protect the good name of the Billingses.

I personally find that to be very, very strange. And I want to know about the evidence.

I want to know how the home security videos from that day would harm their reputations!

That's weird. What on earth did the Billingses do in those videos that would harm their reputations?

What about the documents the lawyer wants kept private? How are those documents going to defame their good name?

The judge is holding the decision for the judge assigned to the case. I hope the new judge doesn't rule to keep this evidence private!

I wouldn't be asking these questions if the laywer hadn't filed the motion.

Can we get a copy of the motion? It's public isn't it? Or is the motion to be kept from the public too?

[Solomisskitty]

Would the images on the tapes that are being suppressed for fear of defamation to the Billings family be discussed in the hearing that was held late Friday, or would it be just general argument for suppression among attorneys and judge?

[JBean]

Nope. Not about gossip. It's about a newspaper article.

It's about how the family hired a lawyer to protect the reputations of the Billings.

It's about the lawyer filing a motion to keep evidence from becoming public to protect the good name of the Billingses.

I personally find that to be very, very strange. And I want to know about the evidence.

I want to know how the home security videos from that day would harm their reputations!

That's weird. What on earth did the Billingses do in those videos that would harm their reputations?

What about the documents the lawyer wants kept private? How are those documents going to defame their good name?

The judge is holding the decision for the judge assigned to the case. I hope the new judge doesn't rule to keep this evidence public!

I wouldn't be asking these questions if the laywer hadn't filed the motion.

Can we get a copy of the motion? It's public isn't it? Or is the motion to be kept from the public too?

Like I said this is being discussed in another thread already and will now merge the thread.
The gossip part is the stripper posts which I have now removed.

[Miss Muffet]

I personally don't believe that strip club owners hold a high standing in society. And I don't think the societal standing of strip club owners is subjective except within select societal fringe groups. Byrd owned a strip club. That's a fact. Not gossip. So I agree that there really is no need to further delve into any gossip about stripping when the 'good name' is already questionable by the mere ownership of a strip club.

I think the motion itself does more harm to the reputations of the Billingses.

If there is evidence that will defame the Billingses, then how can there be a good name to protect?

Is it possible to find the motion or is the motion itself supressed from the public too?

[Dannybye]

Is thiis a stupid question ... The state of Florida has probably all the evidence it needs to convict the people arrested for the crime.

It seems to me that there is a lot more going on here in these peoples lives.

Things that IRS, ATF, DEA, FBI, would be more interested in. I strongly suspect they are involved/investigating all ready. At least I would hope so?

Unless some entity does a private investigation we might never know much more than we do now.

Escambia County does not have the need willingness or the cash and resources to carry this to investigate all the allegations.

Ok enough rambling,

Who agrees that all we will ever see prosecuted is the murder robbery of BB and MB? The rest will just go away quietly ? right?

[mikeysmommom]

Is thiis a stupid question ... The state of Florida has probably all the evidence it needs to convict the people arrested for the crime.

It seems to me that there is a lot more going on here in these peoples lives.

Things that IRS, ATF, DEA, FBI, would be more interested in. I strongly suspect they are involved/investigating all ready. At least I would hope so?

Unless some entity does a private investigation we might never know much more than we do now.

Escambia County does not have the need willingness or the cash and resources to carry this to investigate all the allegations.

Ok enough rambling,

Who agrees that all we will ever see prosecuted is the murder robbery of BB and MB? The rest will just go away quietly ? right?

There is so much more going on here IMO And there are a lot of people who have given so many hours of their own time to help with this case and who have already found mountains of manure and are making sure the stink that is emanating from the corruption is not just perfumed over.Even the Sheriff said by the time this is over there may be 2 to 3 times the amount of people who are already behind bars......Just Saying:rolleyes:

[passionflower]

http://ricksblog.biz/?p=6883#comment-257905
if true 2nd wife says no LE came to talk to her..........
she could tell them allot! IMO

[Solomisskitty]

Has anyone seen or heard whether the main suspects will be prosecuted as a group or individually?

[Solomisskitty]

Eddins has stated he wants to try the case in Pensacola. How would he expect to get an unbiased jury there?

[lookin4justice]

Ever heard the theory, if you can't dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with bull sh--.

As known now, the tapes were released for limited viewing. Nothing criminal going on in the tapes other than the murder of two people.

[Solomisskitty]

Ever heard the theory, if you can't dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with bull sh--.

As known now, the tapes were released for limited viewing. Nothing criminal going on in the tapes other than the murder of two people.

Who in your opinion is doing the baffling?
Have you viewed the tapes?

[lookin4justice]

Blocking.

No, I can not bring myself to watch the tapes. I have had a verbal explanation of the tapes, frame by frame. I am not sure I will be able to watch the tapes. I thought about it though.