The Lab and Building

[JBean]

discuss and post information.

[Turbododger]

Thanks, JBean. :-)

[Jersey*Girl]

Subtitle:
The new research building at 10 Amistad Street is home to three programs focusing on translational research, linking basic studies in animal models to potential cures.

The 3 programs are:
The Interdepartmental Program in Vascular Biology and Therapeutics
Human and Translational Immunology Program
Yale Stem Cell Center

http://medicine.yale.edu/ysminfo/top_story/2007/10/05102007.html

[Jersey*Girl]

Images found at link:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://medicine.yale.edu/ysminfo/top_story/2007/10/graphics/amistad_thumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://medicine.yale.edu/ysminfo/top_story/2007/10/index.html&usg=__1Viz2Zq-98RvWkozSbgPQoyN1NY=&h=62&w=85&sz=10&hl=en&start=51&um=1&tbnid=R0LJiFzFN9Hk3M:&tbnh=55&tbnw=76&prev=/images%3Fq%3D10%2BAmistad%2BStreet%26ndsp%3D20%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40%26um%3D1

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/spedtial/amistad1.jpg

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/spedtial/amistad2.jpg

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/spedtial/amistad3.jpg

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/spedtial/amistad4.jpg

[shoebox]

It is hard to believe that someone could be murdered in a lab during working hours and no one else not know. The news reports have not addressed the lab room(s) that Annie was working in at Amistad. The only thing we know is that the animals were in the basement.
Was no one else working in the basement?
Is it one big room or many small rooms in the basement?
Are there glass panels in the doors and walls where people can see into rooms or solid doors and walls?
Are the walls that soundproof that no one heard arguing/screaming/struggling?
Why hasn't a floorplan of the basement/building been released? They don't have to release information on where the body or bloody clothes was found to avoid jeopardizing the current investigation but at least a floor plan would be nice.

To strangle someone and stuff their body behind a wall takes some time to do. Where was everybody else in the building?

[Celt1997]

To strangle someone and stuff their body behind a wall takes some time to do. Where was everybody else in the building?

Respectfully snipped.

I am puzzled by this also. Not only is there the time to actual commit the crime, but then to hide the body, and change into new clothes while hiding the old clothes?

That's why I'm leaning towards someone else being there and helping out. One person takes care of of the clothes, and general scene cleanup, while the other is disposing of the body.

On top of that, I also wonder how crowded the building would have been on that day, especially at mid to late morning.

[postdoc]

I don't know the layout of the basement in Amistad, but here is something I wrote in another thread based on the layout of the rodent facility where I work:

The suites in our facility are not too large, and have doors with small windows in them. It is possible for one person to work alone and be completely undisturbed. The lab/animal techs may come in and out, but if there was one tech assigned to a particular set of suites, and that tech may have been aware that Annie was the only person *supposed* to be working in that suite.

Even if the crime was not premeditated, I can easily believe that the tech could have assaulted her without raising the attention of other staff (based on the layout of our facility). In this scenario, the body could be left in the suite (possibly behind a rack of cages). Triggering the fire alarm would have provide ample time to clear the facility of staff and permit the tech to hide the body.

As I said, pure speculation based on the facility here. Hope this helps.

[Labrat]

I don't know the layout of the basement in Amistad, but here is something I wrote in another thread based on the layout of the rodent facility where I work:

The suites in our facility are not too large, and have doors with small windows in them. It is possible for one person to work alone and be completely undisturbed. The lab/animal techs may come in and out, but if there was one tech assigned to a particular set of suites, and that tech may have been aware that Annie was the only person *supposed* to be working in that suite.

Even if the crime was not premeditated, I can easily believe that the tech could have assaulted her without raising the attention of other staff (based on the layout of our facility). In this scenario, the body could be left in the suite (possibly behind a rack of cages). Triggering the fire alarm would have provide ample time to clear the facility of staff and permit the tech to hide the body.

As I said, pure speculation based on the facility here. Hope this helps.

Hi postdoc! Does your facility have those large supply cart things with the zipped fabric covers for caging supplies? That's how I'd move a body in my facility. I could roll it right past people and they wouldn't give it a second thought.

Yes, an attack could easily occur in my facility also.

[Shlock Homes]

The fact that she would be kicking and screaming, sometime before noon, makes me think she was lured to a place where she was kept until she was murdered. Until we find out if she had defensive wounds, or chemicals in her system (does chloroform show up on a dead body if she was unconscious for a period of time before being killed?), we won't know if she had a fighting chance.

[postdoc]

Hi postdoc! Does your facility have those large supply cart things with the zipped fabric covers for caging supplies? That's how I'd move a body in my facility. I could roll it right past people and they wouldn't give it a second thought.

Yes, an attack could easily occur in my facility also.

Yes! Great idea - something to keep in mind :eek:

[Skigirl]

I would also add to Postdoc's post that 10 am is still pretty early in vampire-grad student time. The techs would be around, but other grad students would be sort of trickling in in all likelihood. The layout plus the hour would mean that she could be completely alone down there with just a couple techs roaming about.

[MBSC]

I have read several different news reports that state three of RC's relatives worked at the lab - has anyone else heard this? I thought it was just RC, his fiance, his sister and brother-in-law...

Clark lives with his fiance, a young woman who also works as a Yale lab tech. Three of his relatives work there too. - http://www.kcbs.com/Investigation-Continues-in-Murder-of-Yale-Student/5234258

[Labrat]

I had to bring this out of the closed thread because I can not let this plain wrong information stand-

Wrong. Research on mice is not regulated extremely tightly and barely regulated at all. They are not covered under the animal welfare act. Your information is simply not correct:http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119904&page=1

these facilities can go through thousands of mice and rats a month.

Yes, we may even go through more, but that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want with them. You are just wrong. I suggest you take a look at this: http://info.med.yale.edu/iacuc/

The only regulations are not really regulations but a set of standards of care that only apply to federally funded projects (and often student work is not) and those are loose and self reported. This is wrong also. Students are required to work under an approved IACUC protocol. All rodent work is. If your protocol expires, you can not touch your animals until it is renewed. They are absolutely not loose and certainly not self reported.
If you or I or any amateur with no credentials or professional or academic with credentials, wished to buy 100 lab mice and see how long it took to blind them by dipping them in an ammonia solution, or how they reacted to pain of needles stuck in them or how long they lived in a hot oven -- we would not be breaking any laws. (don't get me wrong all of that sounds terrible to me)

Yes, you are correct here. If you wanted to buy the mice at a pet store and sit in your home and do this, you absolutely could. The thing is, you absolutely could NOT do this inside a Yale animal facility. Here you go- http://info.med.yale.edu/iacuc/applicants.html

I think this whole animal rights thing for this case is a compelty off the tracks and not supported by a shred of evidence. That's because you are not familiar with how this system works. everything points to unrequited obsession or less likely but still possible, a badly ended affair. Animal rights activism is something in its lighter forms most people would agree with and in its more sever forms something most people consider fringe, ie most people thing it is wrong to beat a dog, but not wrong to own aquarium fish or step on a bug. It is a potlitcal issue though and I think people are sticking their poltics into a crime which has nothign to do with animal rights, animal welfare or either the sober or nutty people concerned with it.

I saw some of those issues about a possible issue over animal care. Inside an animal facility at Yale, it is not a political issue. Take a look at this- http://info.med.yale.edu/iacuc/whistle.html It can be a real source of friction at times, depending on the personalities involved. I have had animal technicians removed from my rooms because they were taking very poor care of my mice, even after several reprimands. I have also had animal technicians report me for overcrowded cages when I didn't get to my weaning on time.

http://grants.nih.gov/grants/olaw/faqs.htm

Just a note- A lot of what I post is my opinion based on my experience. However, when I talk about animal use guidelines in federally funded research, animal use protocols, things of that nature- that is not my opinion. I can back all of that up.;)

[panthera]

Has there been anything said about when the next person to enter the lab (after RC) arrived, who it was, or if anything seemed out of the ordinary, like an unfinished experiment or anything amiss? MOO

[Shlock Homes]

I'd definitely like to find out how far apart are the areas she was last seen and where her body was found. If she was only seen entering the lab, could her body have been transported from where she was last seen to where she was found without being seen? And who were the next people to be seen entering and leaving the lab in the hour or so after she was last seen? Did it include the suspect?

[Labrat]

It is hard to believe that someone could be murdered in a lab during working hours and no one else not know. The news reports have not addressed the lab room(s) that Annie was working in at Amistad. The only thing we know is that the animals were in the basement.
Was no one else working in the basement?
Is it one big room or many small rooms in the basement?
Are there glass panels in the doors and walls where people can see into rooms or solid doors and walls?
Are the walls that soundproof that no one heard arguing/screaming/struggling?
Why hasn't a floorplan of the basement/building been released? They don't have to release information on where the body or bloody clothes was found to avoid jeopardizing the current investigation but at least a floor plan would be nice.

To strangle someone and stuff their body behind a wall takes some time to do. Where was everybody else in the building?

My technician and I were discussing this today. I told him my plan for concealing the body. I believe I scared the hell out of him, but he did agree it would absolutely work. Even with people in the hallway while I was doing it. He asked me if that's the sort of thing I usually think about when we're back there- I hope he doesn't quit the job tomorrow:crazy:

I think Yale might be hesitant to release a floor plan of that facility for security reasons. I wouldn't do it.

[Shlock Homes]

Has there been anything said about when the next person to enter the lab (after RC) arrived, who it was, or if anything seemed out of the ordinary, like an unfinished experiment or anything amiss? MOO

Exactly. Or if there's even a place in that area to hide a body if someone had been murdered there, a place that wouldn't be accessed until the next day or days in between. That could have been the perfect place to put her body until it could be placed in the wall. There must be fingerprints and fibers on the area where her body was found.

[panthera]

Exactly. Or if there's even a place in that area to hide a body if someone had been murdered there, a place that wouldn't be accessed until the next day or days in between. That could have been the perfect place to put her body until it could be placed in the wall. There must be fingerprints and fibers on the area where her body was found.
This is what I was thinking. If there was a struggle or enough of one for him to get scratches on his back, chest and arms, I'd think there could be some equipment knocked over, or some kind of evidence that something went on in there. I'm not clear how far the area where she was found is from the lab she was last seen entering? I understood it to be where the animals are kept? :waitasec:

[Native New Yorker]

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

"Investigators had attempted to bring a cadaver dog into the building earlier in the week, but because of the large number of animals in the laboratory, the dogs were unable to do a thorough search."

makes perfect sense...a search dog would have been scenting all the live animals......

[Labrat]

I will answer based on my facility. Of course I don't know the Amistad facility, but I have worked in animal facilities at 5 different institutions, and so far they have all been set up in a similar way

It is hard to believe that someone could be murdered in a lab during working hours and no one else not know. The news reports have not addressed the lab room(s) that Annie was working in at Amistad. The only thing we know is that the animals were in the basement.
Was no one else working in the basement? There would have been- 10 is still a bit early for research people, but animal care techs usually start pretty early.
Is it one big room or many small rooms in the basement? many rooms
Are there glass panels in the doors and walls where people can see into rooms or solid doors and walls? This varies
Are the walls that soundproof that no one heard arguing/screaming/struggling? There might be some background noise if cagewash was nearby and running. If animal techs were doing changeouts with hoods running that can muffle sound- they might be wearing headphones and listening to music while they worked. Our techs are always screaming at each other in the hallway- they're a loud bunch.
Why hasn't a floorplan of the basement/building been released? They don't have to release information on where the body or bloody clothes was found to avoid jeopardizing the current investigation but at least a floor plan would be nice. I suspect it might not be. They might have to provide one for the trial, but I doubt they'll give one to the press. I base this on the fact that I would not do it.

To strangle someone and stuff their body behind a wall takes some time to do. Where was everybody else in the building?

I think to actually do it would not take as much time as we think. I think familiarity with the place would help a great deal.

[Emily Booth]

Labrat, can you comment on this issue of emails and text(s) between RC and Annie? Do animal techs email and text grad students re: violations of lab protocols? Are violations normally handled this way? It seems too casual and with no oversight?

[scandi]

There is no THEORIES thread so thought this the most suitable thread for discussion of the disposal of her body in a chase. It is a response to a post found on the MOTIVE thread:

According to one of our maintenance staff, you can get into a mechanical wall chase with a butter knife. This was posted on the NH independent.

Hi SG, We read that LE had 100 officers that searched that bldg thoroughly. The article mentioned they searched all the chases. I interpreted that to mean all the ones they could open up {with a butter knife ;} and look into. They found nothing in those first searches except the clothing in the dropped ceiling tiles.

We also read the body was moved once before it was put into the chase, and to a different room.

My thought is he went up to the area above his basement work area, maybe walked up a stairs to the 1st floor, and already knew of an access point to a chase that grounded in the basement. A chase goes vertically up all the way to the top floor from the bldg with entry from every floor.

Having seen diagrams of the chase construction, I believe he pushed her body through an opening into that chase and it dropped down, landing somewhat hard and maybe wedged in between a pipe or electrical conduit and the plywood facia board inside the chase. I think that plywood board obstructed the searchers view of her body caught above which is why she wasn't found on those initial searches. Then when they brought the dogs in on Sat they got an alert, finding her and keeping that a secret until Sunday.

Another reason I believe this could be the case is they had a difficult time retrieving her body. Because she wasn't right inside the easy to open door to the chase, but wedged many feet above in between the cables/pipework, and they had to remove part of the wall above to get her out.

It is only speculation, but I have tried to use all the little pieces of the puzzle we have read about. We shall see. xox

[Labrat]

Labrat, can you comment on this issue of emails and text(s) between RC and Annie? Do animal techs email and text grad students re: violations of lab protocols? Are violations normally handled this way? It seems too casual and with no oversight?

This one I am not sure of. In my facility I think more likely not, they tend to report it to their supervisor and he calls the student/tech. I think it might be a language barrier issue here though. They certainly could if they were comfortable doing it, in fact we are all supposed to either address it in person or report violations. If it keeps happening, he'll call the Primary Investigator on the protocol. If things are not corrected the veterinarians get involved, and sometimes the IACUC. I have heard of violations so severe that mouse privileges were taken away for a period of time.

The thing that puzzles me- and granted I am not up to speed on all the news, is that I saw he told her to come over because mice were "dirty". If the cages were dirty, there would be no reason to call her- it was his job to clean them. If the mice were dirty because of overcrowding, well, that would be her job to do. In my facility, though, he would have "flagged" the cages, his supervisor would have emailed her with a CC to Dr. Bennett with a certain time period in which to do it. If it were not done within that time period, the animal tech would do it and Dr. Bennett would be billed for the service. Now, I don't know if this is handled differently at Yale. This could be the way they do it. Had she not died, I would have said maybe he knew she was going to be away for a while and he was doing her a favor by letting her know so it wouldn't blow up into a bigger issue while she was gone. Seeing how things turned out, maybe it was just an excuse to get her over there.

I am finding a few things hard to read. For instance he was right to tell someone they should be wearing foot covers- they should have been. I've had techs remind me to gown up properly- whenever I'm in a rush I forget the blasted head cover. I don't know if it was his tone or manner that offended that person, or if that person was one of those who thinks the rules don't apply to them. I have witnessed spectacular blow ups over these protocol issues.

[Waddles]

He appeared very relaxed, very normal," the woman told Pinkston. "I didn't sense any anything different in his behavior from what I'd observed previously."

Only essential personnel could access the basement lab, by swiping key cards at multiple access points, Pinkston points out. The area was highly secured. And researchers typically worked alone.

The med student observed to Pinkston that it is "so secluded down there, soundproof, and nobody is ever looking for you, nobody questions when you go into a room for several hours and don't come out."

The "perfect place," Pinkston noted, for a murder.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/17/earlyshow/main5317185.shtml

[missyjane77]

At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.

[Labrat]

At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.

I've never been in the situation with the suites. I've always had rooms that open off the same hallway. It sounds like the suites would provide much less risk of discovery.

[MWright]

I have read several different news reports that state three of RC's relatives worked at the lab - has anyone else heard this? I thought it was just RC, his fiance, his sister and brother-in-law...

- http://www.kcbs.com/Investigation-Continues-in-Murder-of-Yale-Student/5234258

The media, probably for convenience sake, is considering these people (fiance, sister, and brother-in-law) his relatives.

[postdoc]

At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.

Similar set-up here missjane. I have no problems believing this could happen. Depending on the size of her colony, she could have had an entire room to herself. R.C may have been the primary tech in charge of that room. I suspect he may have actually left the body in the room for some time while trying to figure out what to do. All the while, it would have been business as usual...creepy....

[OHdoc]

Similar set-up here missjane. I have no problems believing this could happen. Depending on the size of her colony, she could have had an entire room to herself. R.C may have been the primary tech in charge of that room. I suspect he may have actually left the body in the room for some time while trying to figure out what to do. All the while, it would have been business as usual...creepy....

In our facility, we have the suite set-up as described previously. However, we have multiple research groups using the same suite, and even multiple groups using the same room. Thus, it is a very busy suite and it would be difficult to get away with something like this in our suite.

[agent_scully]

Found this link of interest:

http://www.yale.edu/bestpractices/yarc-profile.html

[Shlock Homes]

In the article below, one of the comments was from a person who said that the chases in the buildings he's worked at required a magnetic badge (I'm guessing that means ID card) to open them up. So those actions are recorded, just like the opening of doors in the labs.

Since Amistad was a new building, and not an older one, did it or would it also have this feature for it's chases? That would make a lot of sense, to prevent any random person from opening up the chases and messing around inside.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/14/news/doc4aae5d57ae145175622155.tx

Chop wrote on Sep 14, 2009 11:50 PM:

[Harmony2]

http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/images/tech_15.jpg

This is an example of a "fully loaded mechanical chase with HVAC ducts, electrical conduit and water lines."

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/images/tech_15.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/technology.html&usg=__9i3av2sEfBf1lyhVFI3hqDRkOe4=&h=225&w=300&sz=96&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=vqyVUjSzWOZGqM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmechanical%2Bchase%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D 1T4TSHB_enUS235US236%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[PatientOne]

http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/images/tech_15.jpg

This is an example of a "fully loaded mechanical chase with HVAC ducts, electrical conduit and water lines."

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/images/tech_15.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gulfcoastlofts.com/technology.html&usg=__9i3av2sEfBf1lyhVFI3hqDRkOe4=&h=225&w=300&sz=96&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=vqyVUjSzWOZGqM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmechanical%2Bchase%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D 1T4TSHB_enUS235US236%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

I doubt the chase in which Annie's body was found looked like this. If there were any such HVAC ductwork in the chase in question, it could've and likely would've drawn and circulated at least some decomposition odor to any areas it serves.

I still suspect the chase where she was found was simpler and shallower, and adjacent to/behind a bathroom wall in a location that corresponds to where a toilet and sink may be located. It's obviously enclosed. I doubt if there's any big opening to it above the lay-in ceiling or else the decomposition odor would've been more pervasive. Access panel doors to such chases close fairly tightly, but they don't make the chase absolutely air tight.

[PatientOne]

In the article below, one of the comments was from a person who said that the chases in the buildings he's worked at required a magnetic badge (I'm guessing that means ID card) to open them up. So those actions are recorded, just like the opening of doors in the labs.

Since Amistad was a new building, and not an older one, did it or would it also have this feature for it's chases? That would make a lot of sense, to prevent any random person from opening up the chases and messing around inside.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/14/news/doc4aae5d57ae145175622155.tx

Chop wrote on Sep 14, 2009 11:50 PM:

There are chases and there are chases. Some chases are more what I'd call mechanical rooms/closets and house, among other things, important electrical panels that include circuit breakers, etc. These are likely locked and not accessible to just anyone.

[PatientOne]

I've found a photo that looks like what I imagine is similar to the chase in question, but I can't cut and paste the image (copyright?).

If an image search is performed using the words "access panel to pipes", a photo for a plumbing company (j***bay***.net) appears. I imagine a wider and deeper version of a chase like this as a possibility for the one in which Annie was found. The opening would be covered with a metal access panel door.

[Shlock Homes]

I've found a photo that looks like what I imagine is similar to the chase in question, but I can't cut and paste the image (copyright?).

If an image search is performed using the words "access panel to pipes", a photo for a plumbing company (j***bay***.net) appears. I imagine a wider and deeper version of a chase like this as a possibility for the one in which Annie was found. The opening would be covered with a metal access panel door.

I can't find what you described. You should be able to post a link to the web page that has it without infringing on copyright.

[Skigirl]

Someone who has worked in maintenance/construction at the Yale med school, and who claims to have familiarity with the building says you can open the chases with a butter knife:

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/you_can_get_in.php

In the building I worked in, which was opened just a couple years ago and is in the same neighborhood, had chaces that were closed with what looked like small bolts - no swipe/card reader nearby.

[Shlock Homes]

Someone who has worked in maintenance/construction at the Yale med school, and who claims to have familiarity with the building says you can open the chases with a butter knife:

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/you_can_get_in.php

In the building I worked in, which was opened just a couple years ago and is in the same neighborhood, had chaces that were closed with what looked like small bolts - no swipe/card reader nearby.

I hope the police fingerprinted the door that opens into the chase. If he was careless about swiping his card, I imagine his fingerprints would be all over the door/cover.

[Sloof]

here's the image that PatientOne is referring to: http://johnbatorplumbing.net/resources/images/clients/0000006212.000.20090130000301.b6eb412d94124198a1f4 862c01f1f69c34ad8d26.jpeg