View Full Version : Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.
STEADFAST
09-16-2009, 01:24 PM
We can discuss what we find out about the evidence at the scene (s) here.
What kind of clothes were in the ceiling?
Are they RC's?
What condition was Annie's body in?
Where was blood found?
Whose blood is it?
Is RC's DNA under Annie's fingernails.
Well, anyway, stuff like that.
SWAG1959
09-16-2009, 01:36 PM
It was just released that she was strangled. Ok - next blaring question - where did the blood come from? We do know they found "bloody clothes" in the ceiling - so where did the blood come from? Do we know that yet?
Celt1997
09-16-2009, 01:38 PM
It was just released that she was strangled. Ok - next blaring question - where did the blood come from? We do know they found "bloody clothes" in the ceiling - so where did the blood come from? Do we know that yet?
Perhaps the rumors of some form of dismemberment are true?
orangeeater
09-16-2009, 01:42 PM
not sure where to put this (put it in r clark thread too)
1) Does video camera show R Clark wearing different clothes before and after fire alarm?
2) Do cell phone records show clark having left work (for the day) after the alarm? if so, how does he explain it? if not, where did he go in the building? ( I would assume he did not re-enter because he didnt retrieve his clothes)
3) are there phone records that show him calling le beforehand?
SWAG1959
09-16-2009, 01:46 PM
Perhaps the rumors of some form of dismemberment are true?
:eek: oh no. I haven't heard that rumor - though I haven't been following this case that closely. Oh my. She was such a "little thing" anyway. Maybe he beat her up as well. Just make me sick to my stomach.
RIP Annie.
ChasingMoxie
09-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Just bringing this over from the discussion thread, seems like it could end up being pretty significant:
When he was questioned by the FBI, agents took note of numerous injuries on his body, the source said, including what appeared to be bruises and abrasions on his arms, a mark under his eye, a scratch on his right ear, and a bruise or deep scratch to his chest.
When questioned, he said some of the injuries were a scratch from a cat. Others he attributed to playing softball.
“He had excuses for everything,” the source said.
It was when officials started taking pictures of his injuries that Clark reportedly appeared to get nervous and asked for an attorney.
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt
STEADFAST
09-16-2009, 02:39 PM
It was just released that she was strangled. Ok - next blaring question - where did the blood come from? We do know they found "bloody clothes" in the ceiling - so where did the blood come from? Do we know that yet?
Looks like she scratched RC up pretty badly. It could be his blood. I believe LE has stated that the blood on the clothes in the ceiling was not Annie's blood. I'll look for a quotation and link.
Celt1997
09-16-2009, 02:42 PM
:eek: oh no. I haven't heard that rumor - though I haven't been following this case that closely. Oh my. She was such a "little thing" anyway. Maybe he beat her up as well. Just make me sick to my stomach.
RIP Annie.
It was a rumor I saw being discussed in another thread, although I do not know where it originated from.
I was under the impression that the bloody clothes are the killer's and that Annie scratched him on the chest as she fought for her life which, to my mind, completely jibes with death by strangulation. I've mentioned before that I'm so glad she put up such a good fight. Did you see the biceps on RC? Petite Annie was way overmatched but it would be wonderful if she managed to leave evidence behind to catch her killer.
ETA link with references to scratches on RC's chest and the blood on the clothes belonging to the killer:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/14/2009-09-14_killing_of_yale_grad_student_annie_le_not_rando m_say_police.html
Amster
09-16-2009, 02:50 PM
Did anyone hear the most recent Fox News report? Were they talking about e-mails between Annie and the suspect?
Found it..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,550740,00.html
Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 02:59 PM
The fact that they have a conclusive COD as strangulation encourages me.
We can hope for presence of DNA-body evidence, in particular evidence of the killer's DNA on body.
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 04:25 PM
“The results of the forensic analysis from the crime lab will either rule in or rule out our person of interest in this case,” New Haven Assistant Police Chief Peter Reichard said Wednesday morning. “If he’s ruled out, it’s back to the drawing board” where detectives will examine other people who had contact with Le, 24, a graduate student in pharmacology.
“If he’s ruled in, the course of action would be seeking a custodial arrest of the subject.”
http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/doc4ab1406d22fcf985520966.txt
Hadiehl
09-16-2009, 04:27 PM
I posted this on the gen. discussion thread before I realized there were individual topic thread...probably why lurkers shouldn't post!
______
Is there any further detail available in regards to the clothes that were found, or if RC was seen on video arriving at the building in one outfit, and leaving in a different one? I'm curious to know how common it would be for an animal tech to keep a change of clothes at the lab? My layman assumption is that the tech's clothing would be protected by a lab coat -- is that the 'bloody clothing' that was found?
If the clothing in question was something more akin to pants and/or a shirt, I wonder how new, clean clothing was obtained. For instance, do the techs have lockers where clean clothes can be stored in case they're ever needed? Or is having a change of clothes at work more of a rarity, perhaps suggesting premeditation? My other thought was that maybe someone brought him a change of clothes upon request. Then again, we probably don't have enough information to even discuss this aspect....
Heather
A "source" (Your guess is as good as mine as to who that might be) says this about some evidence:
...The source said evidence recovered from the crime scene indicates that Le was killed in a different room in the basement laboratory and then moved to a second room where the crawl space was located.
The source said only someone with intimate knowledge of the layout of the laboratory would have been able to access the crawl space.
The source said tiny droplets of blood were found in one of the laboratory rooms where police now believe the murder took place. The blood is being analyzed at the state forensic laboratory...
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-autopsy-yale-student-murdered-cause-of,0,4101796.story
7:51 p.m. EDT, September 15, 2009
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 04:49 PM
A Connecticut police lab is expediting tests on the DNA of the "person of interest" in the Yale killing so he can be charged or vindicated soon.
State police Lt. Paul Vance said Wednesday that the case has been put to the top of the pack of DNA samples awaiting testing.
Twenty-four-year-old graduate student Annie Le was suffocated and her body stuffed behind a wall in her lab building. Animal lab technician Raymond Clark III was questioned by police Wednesday.
Authorities want to test DNA taken from Clark's hair, fingernails and saliva. They want to compare it with more than 150 pieces of evidence.
University of Connecticut genetics professor Linda Straus Baugh (BOW') says testing can be done in days if a case gets top priority.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3Z7m0uROG-_CM8GzpRCqE2M9IbwD9AOKOI00
shoebox
09-16-2009, 05:14 PM
"Blood splatter were found on a laundry cart and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.
ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and which Clark was in charge of overseeing. "
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
Harmony2
09-16-2009, 05:28 PM
"Blood splatter were found on a laundry cart and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.
ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and which Clark was in charge of overseeing. "
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
Thanks for posting that crucial piece of information about the text. That was the day she went missing. That was probably the summons Puffster referred to.
TexasLil
09-16-2009, 05:33 PM
"Blood splatter were found on a laundry cart and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.
ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and which Clark was in charge of overseeing. "
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
This will definitely help establish premeditation if he is the one who killed her.
MWright
09-16-2009, 05:54 PM
Here is some discussion about him on video surveillance. Not known yet whether the clothes he was wearing while leaving were different than when he arrived...
Video surveillance (circumstantial) evidence:
Snip: "Clark left the building at the time of a fire alarm. Surveillance camera footage is said to show him looking considerably more distraught than could be explained by a simple evacuation." http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html
MWright
09-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Swipe card evidence on day Annie was missing, also from NY Daily News...
"Investigators also noted swipe card records that are said to show Clark usually went through the building in an orderly fashion in accordance with the demands of his work.
But the swipe card records from the day Le disappeared show Clark moving from room to room with no apparent logic, at points going to places unrelated to his job.
Such a pattern might fit somebody who was frenetically searching for a place to hide a body."
Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html
Chili Fries
09-16-2009, 07:00 PM
More on cause of death:
Dr. Henry Lee, a nationally known forensic scientist and former director of Connecticut's crime laboratory, said the cause of Le's death was "external force applied to the neck," but may not necessarily mean someone strangled her.
"It could be any heavy object," he told The Associated Press. "It could be a hand, it could be anything."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=8586817&page=2
puffster
09-16-2009, 07:05 PM
I have information that police have confiscated bloody surgical gloves.
Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:18 PM
I have information that police have confiscated bloody surgical gloves.
So you post it anyway...you could have saved me the headache!
puffster
09-16-2009, 07:22 PM
So you post it anyway...you could have saved me the headache!
Sorry. I post when I can.:innocent:
JBean
09-16-2009, 07:28 PM
I have information that police have confiscated bloody surgical gloves.
do you have a link or a source?
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 07:35 PM
More on cause of death:
Dr. Henry Lee, a nationally known forensic scientist and former director of Connecticut's crime laboratory, said the cause of Le's death was "external force applied to the neck," but may not necessarily mean someone strangled her.
"It could be any heavy object," he told The Associated Press. "It could be a hand, it could be anything."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=8586817&page=2
considering the bead that was found on the floor (abc article upstream) perhaps he used her necklace like a garote. It sounds like there was a lot more blood than a few drops as well....
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 07:36 PM
I have information that police have confiscated bloody surgical gloves.
from whom/where? Do you have a link? I did notice about the gloves in the abc link upstream...
Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:40 PM
do you have a link or a source?
JB, puffster has informed he's/she's media. I know anybody can say they are anybody online, but from my perspective, every single thing that's been posted by puffster has turned out to be true.
Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:54 PM
In one of the general discussion threads, it was mentioned that a "source" said Annie was cut up pretty badly. Could this be where the media is getting "dismemberment" from? Is it dismemberment by popular meaning or could she have been so severely cut that it was to the "point of" dismemberment? I'm trying to get to the bottom of why the news stated she was dismembered...anybody?
masscph
09-16-2009, 07:54 PM
"Blood splatter were found on a laundry cart and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.
ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and which Clark was in charge of overseeing. "
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
If thats true - then it doesnt fit at all what he told his family (or close source to family), when the news about him started rolling in:
But he didn’t really know [Le],” the source said. “She left the area before he left that morning. He’d seen her and said ‘hi’ and kept on going.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/autopsy_results_in_gal_murder_IpfKv663TTNxJxoTRWlB aJ
JBean
09-16-2009, 07:55 PM
JB, puffster has informed he's/she's media. I know anybody can they are anybody online, but from my perspective, every single thing that's been posted by puffster has turned out to be true.
as long as it is not posted as fact. No offense to puffster at all..but media has been wrong once or twice IIRC.
What we want to avoid is discussing something that cannot be supported as fact and then running with it as such. We have gotten into trouble doing that on more than one occasion.
Again, this is not a slight to puffster.:blowkiss:
JBean
09-16-2009, 07:59 PM
In one of the general discussion threads, it was mentioned that a "source" said Annie was cut up pretty badly. Could this be where the media is getting "dismemberment" from? Is it dismemberment by popular meaning or could she have been so severely cut that it was to the "point of" dismemberment? I'm trying to get to the bottom of why the news stated she was dismembered...anybody?
what is kind of odd is that the descriptions are eerily similar to Jasmine Fiore which was just high profile in the news. She was reported as beaten, strangled and dismembered.In reality her fingers were removed at the first joint and her teeth were removed, which is mutilated imo, but not dismembered in the sense I think of it.
Harmony2
09-16-2009, 08:01 PM
considering the bead that was found on the floor (abc article upstream) perhaps he used her necklace like a garote. It sounds like there was a lot more blood than a few drops as well....
I may be wrong (so take this with a grain of salt LOL) but I vaguely recall reading that Annie was wearing a belt or sash that day. Does anyone recall that? Again I may be wrong...
Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:23 PM
I've seen the necklace described in the press as being brown. Was it maybe some kind of leather cord with wooden beads on it? A leather cord would probably be strong enough to choke someone.
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:47 PM
Computer records show that lab technician Raymond Clark III, a "person of interest" in the slaying of Yale graduate student Annie Le, was the last person to see her alive, a law-enforcement source told The Courant today.
Investigators traced Le's and Clark's movements through their computerized swipe cards, said the source, who is familiar with the investigation. Le entered the Yale laboratory at 10 Amistad St. at about 10 a.m. on Sept. 8. She passed through a basement lab area moments later. Then she swiped her way into a separate room of that lab.
Clark entered that same room a short time later, the source said, citing the computer records. Le was never seen again and her card was never used again.
Clark had moved around the laboratory area quite a bit that day, including entering rooms that he normally would not expected to be in, the source said.
Clark also swiped into another area -- the place where Le's body was eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:49 PM
I've seen the necklace described in the press as being brown. Was it maybe some kind of leather cord with wooden beads on it? A leather cord would probably be strong enough to choke someone.
a domestic violence link I found states this strategy if you are in a domestic violence situation:
Develop the habit of not wearing scarves or long necklaces that could be used to strangle you.
http://www.dvipiowa.org/strategies.htm
Yes, I would say that she could have been strangled with her necklace.
jadejazzkayla
09-16-2009, 10:35 PM
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story
OMG. Since DAY 1, I have been dying to know who Annie saw/spoke to upon going into amistad up until the alarm. Finally!
Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 11:29 PM
what is kind of odd is that the descriptions are eerily similar to Jasmine Fiore which was just high profile in the news. She was reported as beaten, strangled and dismembered.In reality her fingers were removed at the first joint and her teeth were removed, which is mutilated imo, but not dismembered in the sense I think of it.
worth a repeat of your answer...this is the reason i keep questioning this...i thought of jasmine fiore right away and the circumstances surrounding...wonder if it's a copycat? maybe?
nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 11:32 PM
http://www.newhavenregister.com/
dna match; arrest is near
Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 11:34 PM
Thank you nurse! I hope he rots!
f_stills
09-16-2009, 11:51 PM
New Haven Police Chief James Lewis said that two additional search warrants were executed yesterday — one for Clark’s Ford Mustang, and one for other property belonging to Clark. More search warrants are likely to be issued, he said. Early yesterday morning, before cops had the Mustang towed from outside of Clark’s residence, two police officers looked closely with a flashlight at the car’s back seat.
“Do you see that?” one cop asked the other.
In the back seat was a black plastic garbage bag that had been tied up.
Lewis said that a total of 250 items have been seized for DNA.
Wonder what on earth was in that black trash bag in Clark's car.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/report_yale_lab_tech_forced_ex_into_AJL2tmpzL26j4B af4ZqxXL
Any word on whether or not he had bruises or cuts on his knuckles and fingers that could be consistent with punching?
Sola.N
09-17-2009, 12:47 AM
Any word on whether or not he had bruises or cuts on his knuckles and fingers that could be consistent with punching?
Maybe LE will release an arrest report that details some of this. I don't know what the laws are in this state, but in other places, you can get arrest reports online within a day or so. Sometimes a few things are redacted, though.
MWright
09-17-2009, 05:43 AM
I remember reading somewhere that card swipe records show RC was also in Amistad at 10pm the day Annie went missing. Ive been trying to find this source again. Anyone else read/see this?
scandi
09-17-2009, 06:13 AM
worth a repeat of your answer...this is the reason i keep questioning this...i thought of jasmine fiore right away and the circumstances surrounding...wonder if it's a copycat? maybe?
Hi JerseyGirl, Thinking of copycat, I think in the killers mind he patterned Annie's disposal after the cleaning lady in NYC who was put into an air conditioning shaft, or SS. It is ironic it happened not long before this crime and the end result was much the same. That lady was alive for some time as I read in the news, after she was put in that big pipe.
Trino just posted a great post on the waiting for an arrest thread about traumatic asphyxiation. To sum it up it is different than strangling and is more involved in that great weight is put on the chest that in effect crushes it. It certainly changes the scope of how she was killed IMO as those are words from the ME. I think her death was unfortunately more horrific than we realize. xox
scandi
09-17-2009, 06:19 AM
Wonder what on earth was in that black trash bag in Clark's car.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/report_yale_lab_tech_forced_ex_into_AJL2tmpzL26j4B af4ZqxXL
Maybe accoutrements to the crime he couldn't bear to part with. I think he somewhat withered after the murder and his brain was doing little mouse farts as one of our dear old time posters would say. He wilted. I saw that look on his face sitting in the police car - a whooped shell of a man, feeling nothing. IMO
Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 09:08 AM
Hi JerseyGirl, Thinking of copycat, I think in the killers mind he patterned Annie's disposal after the cleaning lady in NYC who was put into an air conditioning shaft, or SS. It is ironic it happened not long before this crime and the end result was much the same. That lady was alive for some time as I read in the news, after she was put in that big pipe.
Trino just posted a great post on the waiting for an arrest thread about traumatic asphyxiation. To sum it up it is different than strangling and is more involved in that great weight is put on the chest that in effect crushes it. It certainly changes the scope of how she was killed IMO as those are words from the ME. I think her death was unfortunately more horrific than we realize. xox
Yep, thank you so much. I do wonder if an argument ensued that resulted in RC pushing Annie down and holding her down with his knees on her ribs/chest. Would that be strong enough to asphyxiate? Maybe when comparing his size to hers? Better yet, do any of us know his approximate height & weight? The police stating yesterday "traumatic asphyxiation" and then stating she was strangled made me think of a strangling of the neck. I feel so guilty that I want to know exactly how this happened...almost as if it's not "right" to know in order to protect the sanctity of Annie's memory. It's affected me deeply, I can't even begin to imagine what everyone's feeling that actually knew her. GOD rest her beautiful soul. I really hope she rests in peace.
Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 09:08 AM
I almost forgot...Good morning & thank you.
Sola.N
09-17-2009, 09:19 AM
Yep, thank you so much. I do wonder if an argument ensued that resulted in RC pushing Annie down and holding her down with his knees on her ribs/chest. Would that be strong enough to asphyxiate? Maybe when comparing his size to hers? Better yet, do any of us know his approximate height & weight? The police stating yesterday "traumatic asphyxiation" and then stating she was strangled made me think of a strangling of the neck. I feel so guilty that I want to know exactly how this happened...almost as if it's not "right" to know in order to protect the sanctity of Annie's memory. It's affected me deeply, I can't even begin to imagine what everyone's feeling that actually knew her. GOD rest her beautiful soul. I really hope she rests in peace.
I hear what you're saying, and I understand that feeling of guilt. That said, I don't worry about wanting to know, as long as it doesn't turn into some kind of obsession. One very practical reason people want to know about these things is so they can understand what took place and hopefully have a chance of preventing it from happening to someone in their own sphere of influence. Gaining more knowledge and understanding is never a bad thing, IMO.
Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 09:31 AM
I hear what you're saying, and I understand that feeling of guilt. That said, I don't worry about wanting to know, as long as it doesn't turn into some kind of obsession. One very practical reason people want to know about these things is so they can understand what took place and hopefully have a chance of preventing it from happening to someone in their own sphere of influence. Gaining more knowledge and understanding is never a bad thing, IMO.
Bold by me as this is my reason.
Sola.N
09-17-2009, 09:33 AM
Bold by me as this is my reason.
Mine, too. The older I get, the easier it becomes for me to spot potential trouble. I still miss a LOT, but at least there's a sense of getting some level of understanding of why people do what they do.
mgardner
09-17-2009, 09:37 AM
:eek: oh no. I haven't heard that rumor - though I haven't been following this case that closely. Oh my. She was such a "little thing" anyway. Maybe he beat her up as well. Just make me sick to my stomach.
RIP Annie.
Taken from Katy Perry:
It was like stepping on a kitten :(
MWright
09-17-2009, 12:14 PM
I remember reading somewhere that card swipe records show RC was also in Amistad at 10pm the day Annie went missing. Ive been trying to find this source again. Anyone else read/see this?
Where perhaps this is what I read:
"Police were able to track Clark's movements by reviewing the data from his digital key card, which shows he entered the building no fewer than 10 times, including after hours, on the day Le went missing, according to law enforcement sources." http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
What is considered "after hours" at the 10 Amistad building? The standard 5pm for many businesses? And how late "after hours" did he enter the building on that fateful Tuesday?
MWright
09-17-2009, 12:26 PM
Yep, thank you so much. I do wonder if an argument ensued that resulted in RC pushing Annie down and holding her down with his knees on her ribs/chest. Would that be strong enough to asphyxiate? Maybe when comparing his size to hers? Better yet, do any of us know his approximate height & weight? The police stating yesterday "traumatic asphyxiation" and then stating she was strangled made me think of a strangling of the neck. I feel so guilty that I want to know exactly how this happened...almost as if it's not "right" to know in order to protect the sanctity of Annie's memory. It's affected me deeply, I can't even begin to imagine what everyone's feeling that actually knew her. GOD rest her beautiful soul. I really hope she rests in peace.
Hmmm... not a bad idea JG (i.e., the use of his knees for traumatic asphyxiation). Especially considering that she seemed to put up quite a fight as evidenced by inflicting on him what some are reporting as deep scratches. Perhaps he needed to utilize his body weight because she wasn't succumbing easily at first. Poor thing.
On a separate note. Has anyone here wondered about the intelligence of RC? His girlfriend described him as "naive," (although that could be in defense of him). He used his own key card erratically--he didn't think to use hers--without having the presence of mind to know that key card swipes would/could be tracked. Or does this instead point to a spontaneous killing that escalated in the moment, and then him not thinking clearly after?
respectfully snipped
On a separate note. Has anyone here wondered about the intelligence of RC? His girlfriend described him as "naive," (although that could be in defense of him). He used his own key card erratically--he didn't think to use hers--without having the presence of mind to know that key card swipes would/could be tracked. Or does this instead point to a spontaneous killing that escalated in the moment, and then him not thinking clearly after?
Absolutely! Stuffing the bloody clothes in the ceiling panels? Why not just put up a big EVIDENCE HERE arrow? And why not use Annie's swipe card to make it look like she left after they met up? Instead he uses his own card to frantically run around the building. He certainly doesn't appear to be the brightest bulb.
I don't know what to think but I do believe that he was obsessed with Annie and that the mice were are an excuse to lash out. Ultimately, the "protocol" harassment became physical. Perhaps it took him by surprise but I doubt it. It was always there. IMO, his rage was well lived in and he was comfortable with it. Annie had enough time to fight back, which means he had enough time to come to his senses and stop the attack. The sick truth is that he didn't want to stop.
Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 04:19 PM
I wonder if the laundry cart (the one with the blood spatter) could have been used to hide then move her body...if there was truly "spatter", sounds as tho it would have been in close proximity to the physical violence, as well as convenient for hiding Annie's body until he could move it.
If not spatter then perhaps it was transferred from him and/or her.
'Ailina
09-17-2009, 04:21 PM
I wonder if the laundry cart (the one with the blood spatter) could have been used to hide then move her body...if there was truly "spatter", sounds as tho it would have been in close proximity to the physical violence, as well as convenient for hiding Annie's body until he could move it.
If not spatter then perhaps it was transferred from him and/or her.
I wondered this, too. Granted Annie only weighed 90 lbs., murdering and hiding Annie's body must've been physically taxing for RC. There's the actual act of murder, moving her body, then hoisting her either up over the wall, or through the wall.
Then, there's the aftermath of the adrenaline rush. No wonder he looked "distraught" during the fire alarm.
MWright
09-17-2009, 11:15 PM
Here are a couple of sources regarding the bloody gloves.
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-missing-yale-student,0,267140.story
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970
HeyJoe
09-18-2009, 02:31 AM
Things of signifigance:
evidence in the ceiling and in the crawl space where Le's body was found contained the DNA from both Le and Clark
One investigator, among a group who were in the lab interviewing employees and students shortly after Le disappeared, reported witnessing Clark trying to hide lab cleaning equipment that they later discovered contained blood spatters.
Clark was observed cleaning up areas Le was in before she was reported missing, the law enforcement official said.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-yale-student18-2009sep18,0,3083836.story
Not only are separate key cards required for the parking garage, main building and basement, but "each individual [basement] room has an additional key lock," he said. "Only the actual person doing the research has access. Not even professors [do]."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-annie-le15-2009sep15,0,4930266.story
Angel Who Cares
09-18-2009, 05:52 AM
Added this article for reference related to this thread for discussion! :blowkiss:
*NOTE: More Info In Article!
DNA shows Annie Le's blood on Yale lab tech Raymond Clark boots; green pen clue eyed: Investigators
Friday, September 18th 2009, 5:19 AM
<snipped>
* DNA tests proving Annie Le's blood is on Clark's boots, which have his name on them.
*Tests identifying his DNA on her body and clothing.
*More tests identifying her DNA and hair on him and his clothing.
And then there is the green pen.
Clark did not want to be just some guy who cleans mouse cages, so he distinguished himself by always signing in for work with a pen that used green ink. Every day, including the day of the killing.
Investigators believe he dropped the pen at the scene and was unable to retrieve it after it fell into a crevice.
He apparently hoped to fish it out when he showed up at the lab the day after the killing with a backpack containing wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum.
Even more damning than the pen is his swipe card, which indicates he spent nearly an hour in the room with Le's body after the murder. One can only imagine what was going through his mind.
Article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
:angel:
Is it possible he hit her and knocked her flat out but didn't kill her. Thinking he did, he panics and eventually crams her into the hiding place which is what actually asphyxiates her?
sunsetbeach
09-18-2009, 06:49 AM
Added this article for reference related to this thread for discussion! :blowkiss:
*NOTE: More Info In Article!
DNA shows Annie Le's blood on Yale lab tech Raymond Clark boots; green pen clue eyed: Investigators
Friday, September 18th 2009, 5:19 AM
<snipped>
* DNA tests proving Annie Le's blood is on Clark's boots, which have his name on them.
*Tests identifying his DNA on her body and clothing.
*More tests identifying her DNA and hair on him and his clothing.
And then there is the green pen.
Clark did not want to be just some guy who cleans mouse cages, so he distinguished himself by always signing in for work with a pen that used green ink. Every day, including the day of the killing.
Investigators believe he dropped the pen at the scene and was unable to retrieve it after it fell into a crevice.
He apparently hoped to fish it out when he showed up at the lab the day after the killing with a backpack containing wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum.
Even more damning than the pen is his swipe card, which indicates he spent nearly an hour in the room with Le's body after the murder. One can only imagine what was going through his mind.
Article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
:angel:
Thanks so much for posting this link. There is a lot of new info in here that I have never heard before.
esqgerl
09-18-2009, 07:54 AM
"Lab tech may have had help hiding body."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lab_tech_may_have_had_help_hiding_1bFmFbU8llQLrFlx ZcJojI
STEADFAST
09-18-2009, 08:08 AM
"Lab tech may have had help hiding body."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lab_tech_may_have_had_help_hiding_1bFmFbU8llQLrFlx ZcJojI
Thanks for the link, esqgerl!
From the link:
Evidence found in the ceiling and the space where her body had been hidden contained both Le's and Clark's DNA -- and that was the final piece of the puzzle that led to Clark's arrest, according to the Hartford Courant.
The lab tech also aroused suspicion by trying to hide cleaning equipment, which authorities later found contained blood spatters, according to the paper.
More blood and a bead from Le's necklace were found in another area of the lab, indicating she struggled with Clark, the Courant added.
Labrat
09-18-2009, 08:09 AM
"Lab tech may have had help hiding body."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lab_tech_may_have_had_help_hiding_1bFmFbU8llQLrFlx ZcJojI
Clark was described by co-workers as a "control freak."
And ABC News reported that early on Sept. 8, the day Le disappeared, Clark sent her a text message asking to meet with her to discuss the cleanliness of mice cages.
Clark's obsession with controlling things at Yale's Amistad animal research center in New Haven may have set the stage for the awful crime, authorities said.
I find this section to be very unfair. It was one lab tech quoted about shoe covers who should have been wearing them and would have known it. Everyone has to take a training course before they are given access to animal rooms. The lazy still try to cut corners.
He texted her about her animals and he tried to "control" things in the animal room because IT WAS HIS JOB.
The lazy and lacksidasical at my place say similar things about me. I don't give a rat's @ss. (LOL!) My work is going well and that's what I'm there to do.
It's another example of the media using a he said/she said and blabbering on with no understanding of the situation.
f_stills
09-18-2009, 08:33 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
The medical evidence tells investigators Le was first hit and then strangled, as if a sudden loss of temper was followed by an explosion of rage.
The green pen business is such a colossal "D'oh!" Really Ray Clark? Fishing hooks and bubblegum?
Waddles
09-18-2009, 08:46 AM
Really interesting article from NYDN: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
They also say that Le's blood was found on Clark's work boots. And that they found Clark's DNA on her body and clothes, and Le's DNA on his body and clothes.
Also, the green pen business is such a colossal "D'oh!" Really Ray Clark? Fishing hooks and bubblegum?
excellent, thanks for this article-it definitely sheds more light
Waddles
09-18-2009, 08:52 AM
"He was also given a polygraph test. The machine went off the chart when he was asked, "Do you know where she is now?"
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html#ixzz0RSiS4wMj
"
postdoc
09-18-2009, 08:56 AM
Added this article for reference related to this thread for discussion! :blowkiss:
*NOTE: More Info In Article!
DNA shows Annie Le's blood on Yale lab tech Raymond Clark boots; green pen clue eyed: Investigators
Friday, September 18th 2009, 5:19 AM
<snipped>
* DNA tests proving Annie Le's blood is on Clark's boots, which have his name on them.
*Tests identifying his DNA on her body and clothing.
*More tests identifying her DNA and hair on him and his clothing.
And then there is the green pen.
Clark did not want to be just some guy who cleans mouse cages, so he distinguished himself by always signing in for work with a pen that used green ink. Every day, including the day of the killing.
Investigators believe he dropped the pen at the scene and was unable to retrieve it after it fell into a crevice.
He apparently hoped to fish it out when he showed up at the lab the day after the killing with a backpack containing wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum.
Even more damning than the pen is his swipe card, which indicates he spent nearly an hour in the room with Le's body after the murder. One can only imagine what was going through his mind.
Article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
:angel:
Weird - I wonder what sort of crevice they are referring to? Usually these sort of labs have little in the way of crevices to make them easier to keep clean.
postdoc
09-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Furthermore - who signs in when there is such an elaborate swipe-card system??
Waddles
09-18-2009, 09:00 AM
Weird - I wonder what sort of crevice they are referring to? Usually these sort of labs have little in the way of crevices to make them easier to keep clean.
Maybe was in his pocket and fell out where he hid her in the wall
postdoc
09-18-2009, 09:04 AM
Maybe was in his pocket and fell out where he hid her in the wall
Ahh...that would make more sense. Good call! I was thinking he lost it in the room where the assualt was supposed to have occured.
Harmony2
09-18-2009, 09:14 AM
Thanks to all for posting the updates. Lots of crucial and incriminating information in those articles. I am going to bookmark them for later reference.
amysmom
09-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Plea time! Only a FOOL would go to trial with this much evidence!
Amster
09-18-2009, 09:58 AM
"Lab tech may have had help hiding body."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lab_tech_may_have_had_help_hiding_1bFmFbU8llQLrFlx ZcJojI
Wonder who helped him? Relative? GF?
amysmom
09-18-2009, 10:03 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
The green pen business is such a colossal "D'oh!" Really Ray Clark? Fishing hooks and bubblegum?
Wonder how they knew what was in the backpack.. Did they find it in the car or apt? Did he empty it out in the lab in front of the same LE that saw him with the cleaning products? Either way how stoopid! :waitasec:
amysmom
09-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Wonder who helped him? Relative? GF?
I can not see another employee (friend) so that leaves one of the other 3.. GF, SIS, BIL.
passionflower
09-18-2009, 10:23 AM
Has the broken 'bead' from a necklace been said it was definately Annie's or could it be from his helper???
I started a thread for us to talk about this stuff.......who helped RC???
f_stills
09-18-2009, 10:43 AM
Wonder how they knew what was in the backpack.. Did they find it in the car or apt? Did he empty it out in the lab in front of the same LE that saw him with the cleaning products? Either way how stoopid!
Can you please tell me about that LE and cleaning products detail? I missed that!
The NY Post yesterday said that a black trash bag tied up at the top was found in the backseat of his car and confiscated. To my knowledge they haven't released what was actually found, if anything, in that trash bag. Maybe it was the backpack in question.
I want to hear how they definitely know the fishing hooks, wire and bubblegum were all used to get the green pen out of the crevice, since Clark is apparently refusing to talk to police and there aren't video cameras in the basement. Maybe his lawyers will argue he just likes gum and fishing tools at all times.
scandi
09-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Can you please tell me about that LE and cleaning products detail? I missed that!
The NY Post yesterday said that a black trash bag tied up at the top was found in the backseat of his car and confiscated. To my knowledge they haven't released what was actually found, if anything, in that trash bag. Maybe it was the backpack in question.
I want to hear how they definitely know the fishing hooks, wire and bubblegum were all used to get the green pen out of the crevice, since Clark is apparently refusing to talk to police and there aren't video cameras in the basement. Maybe his lawyers will argue he just likes gum and fishing tools at all times.
Hi F_.stills, Not even trying to cover his tracks, shown by all the evidence said to connect him to the crime, I doubt his lawyers will have that out.
If he followd suit with his nonchalance, I think they will find the assembled rigging he created to get that green pen out of it's crevice among the approx 150+ items of evidence!
MWright
09-18-2009, 01:03 PM
"The medical evidence tells investigators Le was first hit and then strangled, as if a sudden loss of temper was followed by an explosion of rage."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
So he hit her, first, and then strangled her.
agent_scully
09-18-2009, 01:13 PM
hit her first and then once she hit the ground possibly stomped on her neck? (truamtic asphyxia ie crush asphyxiation?)
puffster
09-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Report: Investigator saw Clark hiding evidence
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/report-raymond-clark-seen-trying-to-hide-evidence-1.1458939
MWright
09-18-2009, 01:37 PM
Report: Investigator saw Clark hiding evidence
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/report-raymond-clark-seen-trying-to-hide-evidence-1.1458939
Wow! The proverbial nail in the coffin of evidence.
This article provides a great summary. Thanks for posting.
Shlock Homes
09-18-2009, 10:55 PM
They already confirmed his DNA on the clothing and in the crevice, what about the blood they said was on the equipment he was trying to hide? Didn't they confirm that yet?
Was he seen entering the lab wearing the clothing that was found in the ceiling? Where did he keep the spare clothing if the murder wasn't planned ahead of time? And how long would the two of them have been alone around 10am?
I'm surprised that he'd be careful enough to have hidden a body that wasn't found for several days, but be dumb enough to swipe his card. Didn't he have access to Annie's card? Was it found on her body, or is it missing?
Native New Yorker
09-18-2009, 10:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/nyregion/19yale.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
"The biggest break in the case came from a German shepherd named Max handled by State Trooper Nick Leary, according to a law enforcement official.
Max, who is trained in body recognition, was first sent to search through mounds of garbage that had been sent out for incineration from the lab. On Sunday he was taken to the basement of the lab building, where he picked up Ms. Le’s scent."
rdm64
09-19-2009, 06:48 AM
hit her first and then once she hit the ground possibly stomped on her neck? (truamtic asphyxia ie crush asphyxiation?)
No! WHY are people saying that! Traumatic asphyxia in ACCIDENTS is usually crush. IN murder traumatic asphyxia is almost always simple face to face manual strangulation or a simple choke hold!
Someone here with no background in murder cause of death must have mistakenly done an internet search and not understood what they read.
male on female murder by "tramatic ashyxia" is almost always just strangulation or choking.
rdm64
09-19-2009, 06:53 AM
I'm surprised that he'd be careful enough to have hidden a body that wasn't found for several days, but be dumb enough to swipe his card. Didn't he have access to Annie's card? Was it found on her body, or is it missing?
Actually the entire body of evidence is perfectly consistent with second degree.
Why did he swipe his card, why did he murder her in a crime scene he didn't control and where he himself worked? why did he hide his lab coat? etc?
Simple: Because it all fits perfectly with an unplanned murder.
rdm64
09-19-2009, 07:35 AM
Plea time! Only a FOOL would go to trial with this much evidence!
Don't forget that the evidence coming out looks good for him in one sense, that it is appearing more and more to be second degree not first degree.
I wondered this, too. Granted Annie only weighed 90 lbs., murdering and hiding Annie's body must've been physically taxing for RC. There's the actual act of murder, moving her body, then hoisting her either up over the wall, or through the wall.
Then, there's the aftermath of the adrenaline rush. No wonder he looked "distraught" during the fire alarm.
Not to taxing at all.
Scenario: They exchange words. She scratches at him and he punches her, or visa versa. he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.
he looks around for hiding place for the body, triggers an alarm, puts her in a laundry cart, moes her to the room with the panel, removes an access panel, puts her body in the large opening. stands on a chair lifts a drop ceiling panel and throws his lab coat and shirt up there.
I wonder if the laundry cart (the one with the blood spatter) could have been used to hide then move her body...if there was truly "spatter", sounds as tho it would have been in close proximity to the physical violence, as well as convenient for hiding Annie's body until he could move it.
If not spatter then perhaps it was transferred from him and/or her.
the simpliest explanation/scerio ought to be considered. an even light punch to the mouth will split a lip causing a fair amount of blood. If he strangled her or choked held her while her lip was bleeding there easily could be her blood on his shoe/boot.
Hmmm... not a bad idea JG (i.e., the use of his knees for traumatic asphyxiation). Especially considering that she seemed to put up quite a fight as evidenced by inflicting on him what some are reporting as deep scratches. Perhaps he needed to utilize his body weight because she wasn't succumbing easily at first. Poor thing.
On a separate note. Has anyone here wondered about the intelligence of RC? His girlfriend described him as "naive," (although that could be in defense of him). He used his own key card erratically--he didn't think to use hers--without having the presence of mind to know that key card swipes would/could be tracked. Or does this instead point to a spontaneous killing that escalated in the moment, and then him not thinking clearly after?
Again it appears as if people are misinforming themselves about "traumatic asphyxia" form early posts that were in ERROR. traumatic asphyxia on in male on female murder is almost always simple face to face strangulation with the hands and second most common a chock hold from behind with the forearm.
If you have udnergone military training in this you are going to choose choke hold when able because you are in a more defendable positon from behind and you have some control overl whether you just render the person unconcious or kill them .
But since he had scratches to his chest it was almost certainly a face to face strangulation. He is a foot taller. that means if he pins her to a wall with his arms locked out, her hands will not reach his face and be below his arms. if untrained, like 99% of people, she would naturally tear at his shirt and chest (the appropriate response on choke hold is to try and flip the person over your back which is hard for a small woman. the appropriate response on a two handed face to face pin to wall is, if close to equal strength, slam up and out at attackers elbows, but if weaker go for a testicle grab and crush.)
Skigirl
09-19-2009, 09:09 AM
(the appropriate response on choke hold is to try and flip the person over your back which is hard for a small woman. the appropriate response on a two handed face to face pin to wall is, if close to equal strength, slam up and out at attackers elbows, but if weaker go for a testicle grab and crush.)
I'll have to keep this in mind :eek:
I agree, though. I've read that there were tiny drops of blood. It takes a practically microscopic specimen to get DNA these days because of PCR. That amount of blood could come from the scenario rdm64 is describing.
To play devil's advocate, the investigators have said they zeroed in on RC early because, even as they were searching the building, they observed him cleaning up the area where they now believe AL was killed. I guess he could have been trying to get rid of trace evidence, but I would have thought that he would have cleaned up the area immediately afterward, so I wonder why he risked calling attention to himself by cleaning the area a second time.
f_stills
09-19-2009, 10:02 AM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3Z7m0uROG-_CM8GzpRCqE2M9IbwD9AQDKM00
AP says a Ford Taurus has been seized in connection with the Clark case, from the motel Clark had last stayed in. Clark's Mustang has already been seized and searched, to my knowledge.
This is from Wednesday's NY Post:
A neighbor of Clark and his fiancée, Jennifer Hromadka, said the couple left their apartment in a hurry that day.
“They were really rushed,” the woman said, adding that the pair was lugging suitcases and hopped into a silver Taurus with an elderly couple , leaving Clark’s red Mustang behind.
The AP article says Clark's father had stayed with him that night at the motel and it's unclear whether the father ever left, so it might be the father's car. It jibes with the "elderly couple" from Friday night, could've been Clark's parents.
Now what was in those suitcases?
Labrat
09-19-2009, 10:40 AM
Don't forget that the evidence coming out looks good for him in one sense, that it is appearing more and more to be second degree not first degree.
Not to taxing at all.
Scenario: They exchange words. She scratches at him and he punches her, or visa versa. he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.
he looks around for hiding place for the body, triggers an alarm, puts her in a laundry cart, moes her to the room with the panel, removes an access panel, puts her body in the large opening. stands on a chair lifts a drop ceiling panel and throws his lab coat and shirt up there.
the simpliest explanation/scerio ought to be considered. an even light punch to the mouth will split a lip causing a fair amount of blood. If he strangled her or choked held her while her lip was bleeding there easily could be her blood on his shoe/boot.
That is exactly how I envision it also. I think people are making this very much more complicated than it is.
Labrat
09-19-2009, 10:41 AM
I'll have to keep this in mind :eek:
I agree, though. I've read that there were tiny drops of blood. It takes a practically microscopic specimen to get DNA these days because of PCR. That amount of blood could come from the scenario rdm64 is describing.
To play devil's advocate, the investigators have said they zeroed in on RC early because, even as they were searching the building, they observed him cleaning up the area where they now believe AL was killed. I guess he could have been trying to get rid of trace evidence, but I would have thought that he would have cleaned up the area immediately afterward, so I wonder why he risked calling attention to himself by cleaning the area a second time.
Guilt and panic. He couldn't be sure he hadn't missed something the first time.
Labrat
09-19-2009, 10:47 AM
he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.
rdm64, I have a question. Does body size really make that much of a difference? I know people relate size and strength, but is that always the case?
For example, I am a much larger person than Annie, but I would guess she was much more athletic than I am. I'm relatively weak for my size I think.
I guess am wondering if size does equal strength
masscph
09-19-2009, 11:03 AM
rdm64, I have a question. Does body size really make that much of a difference? I know people relate size and strength, but is that always the case?
For example, I am a much larger person than Annie, but I would guess she was much more athletic than I am. I'm relatively weak for my size I think.
I guess am wondering if size does equal strength
Size & weight do have something say, and especially in this case when he is double the weight of Annie, she would have stood no chance.
You might not be athletic, but you are still able to put in alot of your bodyweight into wresting a person, hitting a person, grabbing a person.
Nomatter how athletic you are, if you are weighing 90 pounds, and is wrestling a guy of 190 pounds, then i would say you have no chance, unless you are specifically a skilled fighter in some way.
PatientOne
09-19-2009, 12:21 PM
I think I should've entered these posts I made here instead of in the Motive thread yesterday:
Some random thoughts -- not sure what they indicate:
Tonight on TV I heard someone suggest the types of scratches (particularly the chest and back scratches) on RC's body may indicate he was straddling her.
Someone here on WS provided a description of the process/consequences of strangulation and in it, it was said that if enough pressure was applied to the neck that not only air but blood flow would be impaired and a victim could begin to lose consciousness in 10 seconds. Annie obviously put up a fierce fight that lasted much longer so I wonder if RC was holding her by the neck, for some of the time at least, merely to help control her movements (just as straddling would do)?
************************************************** ********
Not important, but it occurs to me that with all the talk about RC cleaning up blood evidence, I wonder if during the struggle, other items in the lab could've been damaged that leaked their contents, thus proving a struggle took place in the room which could help to paint a picture of the final encounter?
I wonder if any mice cages were present, since the meeting's intent was to discuss cleanliness issues? Perhaps some cages were knocked about.
I've also wondered if there's a floor drain in the lab room where the murder took place, especially since it's in the basement.
Shlock Homes
09-19-2009, 12:52 PM
Actually the entire body of evidence is perfectly consistent with second degree.
Why did he swipe his card, why did he murder her in a crime scene he didn't control and where he himself worked? why did he hide his lab coat? etc?
Simple: Because it all fits perfectly with an unplanned murder.
If they're just depending upon card swipes, then anyone could have been using his card, just like anyone could have used Annie's card. If he was swiping into areas 'he had no business in' as they've said, why did he have access with his card?
Let's suppose it really was him using his card. What about other card swipes around the last time when Annie was murdered and when Ray left because of the fire alarm. Do they show that Ray was alone in those areas? Or were there other people swiping in and out too? Taken out of context, it may look suspicious that he's swiped into an area where her body was later found and he's there for an hour, but you have to ask if he was really alone there or were there people coming and going? Someone posted a link to an interview with another student who worked in the lab only feet away from where the body was found, and that Ray was nearby too. So it's not clear if his time spent in that area between 10am and 12pm was out of the ordinary, if he was alone, or what.
The pen in the wall near the body could also have been planted, if someone had a beef with Ray and/or Annie. If Raymond put his pen down someplace and someone else picked it up, they could have chucked it in the space with the body. Did they say if anyone noticed Ray's green pen that he usually signs with was conspicuously absent from his person? Or from his signings? Did Ray explain to anyone that his favourite pen had disappeared at a particular time?
Labrat
09-19-2009, 01:03 PM
I think I should've entered these posts I made here instead of in the Motive thread yesterday:
Some random thoughts -- not sure what they indicate:
Tonight on TV I heard someone suggest the types of scratches (particularly the chest and back scratches) on RC's body may indicate he was straddling her.
Someone here on WS provided a description of the process/consequences of strangulation and in it, it was said that if enough pressure was applied to the neck that not only air but blood flow would be impaired and a victim could begin to lose consciousness in 10 seconds. Annie obviously put up a fierce fight that lasted much longer so I wonder if RC was holding her by the neck, for some of the time at least, merely to help control her movements (just as straddling would do)?
************************************************** ********
Not important, but it occurs to me that with all the talk about RC cleaning up blood evidence, I wonder if during the struggle, other items in the lab could've been damaged that leaked their contents, thus proving a struggle took place in the room which could help to paint a picture of the final encounter?
I wonder if any mice cages were present, since the meeting's intent was to discuss cleanliness issues? Perhaps some cages were knocked about.
I've also wondered if there's a floor drain in the lab room where the murder took place, especially since it's in the basement.
Some rooms have floor drains, some do not. I would guess no cages got knocked around. If a conventional rack went over during a struggle, the noise would have brought everyone running. An air flow rack (cages are locked into their slots) is pretty stable- it would move a bit if you fell against it. I think it would take a deliberate effort to knock one of those over.
If a few cages fell to the floor, the water bottles might leak, or there's usually a spray bottle of disinfectant solution but that would not prove a struggle. So far I've broken 3 of them by dropping them on the floor- LOL. I've dropped a mouse cage twice. I think he would have cleaned anything like that up right away.
I wonder if there are any mice unaccounted for? If cages were knocked over, he might not have been able to corral the mice in time.
JL50ish
09-20-2009, 04:33 PM
The pen in the wall near the body could also have been planted,
I think Clark's green pen that was found in the wall likely either had some blood evidence on it OR was used as a garrote to tighten whatever was used to strangle Annie.
static
09-20-2009, 04:55 PM
On another site someone posted that if he had scratch marks on his chest and back,he more than likely had his shirt off. Makes sense to me...scratch marks on his back, she may have gotten her hands away if he was on top of her. This is so much more than mere workplace violence, he just doesn't want to admit(or have his gf find out) that he is a stalking, obsessive, punk.
Columbo
09-20-2009, 08:10 PM
Probably not that important, but I wonder where they found her swipe card?
Skigirl
09-21-2009, 07:12 AM
I've wondered that, too, because I think if I'd been him, I would have taken it and swiped around the building.
Skigirl
09-21-2009, 07:21 AM
This article, published this morning, says he broke her bones getting her into the space, that he used her card in addition to his to walk around the building (? contrary to what we've heard before), and that he accidentally tripped the alarm with one of the swipe cards. Take with however many grains of salt you see fit, considering the source:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI
Waddles
09-21-2009, 10:24 AM
This article, published this morning, says he broke her bones getting her into the space, that he used her card in addition to his to walk around the building (? contrary to what we've heard before), and that he accidentally tripped the alarm with one of the swipe cards. Take with however many grains of salt you see fit, considering the source:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI
Thanks for this Skigirl!
Waddles
09-21-2009, 10:29 AM
Why were the LE there before AL was declared missing-for another reason? or are they called when there is a fire alarm?
Waddles
09-21-2009, 10:31 AM
sad they didn't put two and two together the moment they heard she was missing
Harmony2
09-21-2009, 11:08 AM
This article, published this morning, says he broke her bones getting her into the space, that he used her card in addition to his to walk around the building (? contrary to what we've heard before), and that he accidentally tripped the alarm with one of the swipe cards. Take with however many grains of salt you see fit, considering the source:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI
Thank you Ski!! More detail from the article (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI):
Le's body, the source said, was found in a utility space in a bathroom wall near the basement lab where she had been working the day she vanished.
The space where Le was found -- 8 inches deep and covered by a metal panel "the size of a computer screen" -- houses a vertical and a horizontal water pipe.
Her killer had to maneuver her body around the pipes, according to the source.
IWannaKnow
09-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Is there any picture of Annie with her engagement ring? A nice, big, solitaire stone maybe? Set in prongs??? They would make really nice, deep, scratches. And you couldn't have forced me to take my ring off five days before my wedding - :twocents: She was dressed in regular clothing when she entered the building. I see no reason not to think she was wearing her ring. Does anyone know if the scratches were more on one side of RC, say his right side??
As far as the shoe covers go, that requirement is in place to prevent cross-contamination from one lab to another, and to prevent the spread of disease. It is for everyone's best interest. Considering what they were doing down there, I'm glad someone is/was a little anal about it. Everyone who works there knows they should have them on and why. If RC was having to ride people about it, I can see why he would be P.O.'ed about it. If the researchers where that bright, they should have been able to understand the need to control contamination without the lab tech having to remind them. :twocents:
Skigirl
09-21-2009, 07:57 PM
The New Haven police chief made a statement today specifically denying that AL's body was mangled to fit it into the wall. He also said that they are done with their investigation - this has got to be the fastest homicide investigation I've ever heard of.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-investigation-over-chief-says-0921,0,2304773.story
Paulette
09-21-2009, 09:28 PM
The New Haven police chief made a statement today specifically denying that AL's body was mangled to fit it into the wall. He also said that they are done with their investigation - this has got to be the fastest homicide investigation I've ever heard of.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-investigation-over-chief-says-0921,0,2304773.story
The New York Post reported: "The space where Le was found -- 8 inches deep and covered by a metal panel "the size of a computer screen" -- houses a vertical and a horizontal water pipe. Her killer had to maneuver her body around the pipes, according to the source."
I'd have to ask the New Haven police chief is he needs glasses or a dictionary!
Skigirl
09-21-2009, 09:36 PM
I'd have to ask the New Haven police chief is he needs glasses or a dictionary!
Or maybe the space is bigger/more accessible than the NY Post is reporting?
panthera
09-21-2009, 09:44 PM
Or maybe the space is bigger/more accessible than the NY Post is reporting?
I understood it (in other reports) to be approximately 2'. :waitasec: MOO
Shlock Homes
09-21-2009, 10:41 PM
The card swipe thing bothers me, because anyone can use it. If there was a pass code required, then it would be difficult to fake that. But if Clark was the one who killed her, and he's a lab tech, he'd clearly know about the tracking of card use. It still doesn't explain how he was able to kill someone and move the body to another location without anyone hearing or seeing anything. They make it sound like they were all alone down there, when there must have been a lot of people. They would have seen something, even blood or broken equipment, if not some screaming and yelling. Then to conceal the body, it would have required even more time alone, which he wouldn't have had that same day. By the next day, he wouldn't have had any chance whatsoever. So maybe the hiding occurred overnight.
They say his card was swiped during the night. But they don't mention if he was seen on video entering the lab area. Wouldn't they have said that by now? You only hear about him entering the morning, and seen leaving at the alarm.
MWright
09-22-2009, 04:12 AM
Or maybe the space is bigger/more accessible than the NY Post is reporting?
Discussions from Nancy Grace regarding the space where Le was found... (see links for full names of discussants).
From Nancy Grace 9/17/09
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/17/ng.01.html
"GRACE: Dr. M. Bell, I`m going to have to go back to you, although you were a little vague when I asked you the first time. You started talking about suitcases. How can you get a human body in a 24-inch space?
BELL: Well, she is rather petite, I believe under five foot, less than 100 pounds.
GRACE: Yes.
BELL: You just keep pushing and pushing until it fits.
GRACE: OK. "
From Nancy Grace 09/21/09
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/21/ng.01.html
"Dr. G. Feigin, out of New Jersey. Dr. Feigin, how would you put a woman`s body in a spot that`s reportedly two by two if you don`t mangle and break the bones?
FEIGIN: You can`t put a square peg into a round hole. And you have to make it fit. Usually, the shoulders are the widest part of the body, and it has to be manipulated either by fracturing or squeezing, one way or another, to get into a small opening.
GRACE: T. Kaplan with the "Yale Daily News," what can you tell us, T.?
T. KAPLAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, YALE DAILY NEWS, NEWSPAPER BROKE STORY OF MISSING YALE STUDENT: Well, the state`s attorney actually took a very unusual step today in instructing the police to speak publicly about this and shoot down this report.
We know there actually were a couple of other inaccuracies in the "New York Post" report. The story also said that Raymond Clark triggered the fire alarm himself accidentally. The police told us today on the record that the false alarm was not triggered by Raymond Clark and had nothing at all to do with the murder.
GRACE: Just last week they suggested that he did trigger it.
To D. Altimari with the "Hartford Courant." D., they left the crime scene open for days. In fact, the "Yale Daily News" reporters -- photographers actually got down in the basement and looked around.
D. ALTIMARI, REPORTER, HARTFORD COURANT, COVERING STORY (via phone): Yes, they did.
GRACE: So what`s the truth? How big is the opening in which her body was hidden?
ALTIMARI: It`s about two feet, Nancy. The problem today is her bones were not broken. She was stuffed into the tiny crawl space. It`s in a -- it was behind, in a mechanical room near a bathroom. The -- it took police five days to find her because they couldn`t really bring the dogs down there initially because there are, my understanding is, literally thousands of mice and rats down there and it was difficult for the dogs to do any searching.
So it took until the body started decomposing.
GRACE: Right.
ALTIMARI: . for the dogs to be able to hit on the spot where she was found. "
Skigirl
09-22-2009, 07:02 AM
I understood it (in other reports) to be approximately 2'. :waitasec: MOO
I'm not as small as Annie, and I could easily fit in a space that was two feet wide. I don't think we know for sure how tall the space is. I would imagine that if it's like other buildings on campus, it's made so that electricians and other tradespeople can get in fairly easily and do work on the mechanicals without having to tear apart the walls. The ones like that that I've seen (in a new building several blocks away) aren't particularly small, though you would have to maneuver around the wires and pipes to work on something specific in there.
Harmony2
09-23-2009, 10:39 AM
The V-neck on these scrubs look pretty low especially if no undershirts are worn. A nail scratching and angling downward would go across his chest. The scratches on his back are perplexing to me. The idea of the engagement ring causing the scratches is food for thought.
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/09/16/image5314764.jpg
photo from page 4 of this link: http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/16/crimesider/photoessay5314972_1_4_photo.shtml?tag=page
(Note: I wonder if that is the infamous green pen in his pocket?)
The card swipe thing bothers me, because anyone can use it. If there was a pass code required, then it would be difficult to fake that. But if Clark was the one who killed her, and he's a lab tech, he'd clearly know about the tracking of card use. It still doesn't explain how he was able to kill someone and move the body to another location without anyone hearing or seeing anything. They make it sound like they were all alone down there, when there must have been a lot of people. They would have seen something, even blood or broken equipment, if not some screaming and yelling. Then to conceal the body, it would have required even more time alone, which he wouldn't have had that same day. By the next day, he wouldn't have had any chance whatsoever. So maybe the hiding occurred overnight.
They say his card was swiped during the night. But they don't mention if he was seen on video entering the lab area. Wouldn't they have said that by now? You only hear about him entering the morning, and seen leaving at the alarm.
If RC's card had been lost or stolen then it seems likely that he would have immediately reported it missing and asked for a new one. Otherwise, how did he get into work every day? Also, I'm not convinced he knew that the card swipes could be traced. I think he overlooked that possibility.
In addition to stealing his ID card, someone would have needed to steal his cell phone… as well as his green pen.
"Investigators have gathered more than 250 pieces of evidence in the case, sources told ABC News, including text messages exchanged between Clark and Le arranging to meet on the day she disappeared."
http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8598755&pid=248
JL50ish
09-23-2009, 02:22 PM
I wonder about her engagement ring.
If it was left on her body, it would have his DNA probably on it. If he stole it off her body, I wonder where he put it.
JL50ish
09-23-2009, 02:34 PM
What's the story with Clark's green pen?
songline
09-23-2009, 03:31 PM
I understood it (in other reports) to be approximately 2'. :waitasec: MOO
Some reports say 5 feet.
songline
09-23-2009, 03:35 PM
I'm not as small as Annie, and I could easily fit in a space that was two feet wide. I don't think we know for sure how tall the space is. I would imagine that if it's like other buildings on campus, it's made so that electricians and other tradespeople can get in fairly easily and do work on the mechanicals without having to tear apart the walls. The ones like that that I've seen (in a new building several blocks away) aren't particularly small, though you would have to maneuver around the wires and pipes to work on something specific in there.
I have been on many construction sites (New Constructions - real estate) I did go through a crawl space one time because of a ring. I am not as small as Le was.
Yes that is where electrical things are stored.
songline
09-23-2009, 03:37 PM
What's the story with Clark's green pen?
We can all buy them in any stationary store.
What if it was not his?
Pen is not enough but is sure would make me look
and look again.
songline
09-23-2009, 03:42 PM
In addition to stealing his ID card, someone would have needed to steal his cell phone… as well as his green pen.
"Investigators have gathered more than 250 pieces of evidence in the case, sources told ABC News, including text messages exchanged between Clark and Le arranging to meet on the day she disappeared."
http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8598755&pid=248
BBM
Not sure about that. One can have a legitimate call in to her to discuss something. Separate from everything else.
I did not hear that his ID card was missing. :rolleyes:
but if it was, then they give you a temporary card to get in and out, that would mean that he had to have reported it missing. DID HE?
I wonder why didn't he steal her card to cover his tracks? Just wonder....
I lost an ID card once and we had a guard who let me in.
songline
09-23-2009, 03:46 PM
I still see lies, inaccuracies, and the guy still does not have good representation.
I see a poor little girl dead, and most people just sympathising with her and not really looking much further.
:( :( :( JMO
If someone framed RC then they've done a very good job. They knew the where and when of his meeting meeting with AL. They managed to get into the room she was killed in without swiping their card. They were able to steal and use his ID/swipe card without him knowing it was gone. They knew he always carried a green pen. They were able to transfer his DNA to Annie's body and the bloody clothes in the ceiling without transferring their own DNA. They were able to scratch his chest and arms to simulate defensive wounds. And that still doesn't explain failing the lie detector test or refusing a DNA test.
Very Interesting
09-23-2009, 04:41 PM
I agree, would be hard to say he was framed with what we know already. Though more will be known when evidence is released.
Has anybody heard if Annie ever mentioned to her fiance that suspect had been difficult to her or a pain to her?
JL50ish
09-23-2009, 06:12 PM
I agree, would be hard to say he was framed with what we know already. Though more will be known when evidence is released.
Has anybody heard if Annie ever mentioned to her fiance that suspect had been difficult to her or a pain to her?
the whole "framing" scenario is basically a Hollywood theme...rarely does anyone "frame" another person for murder - especially if the murder was done by amateurs (and I don't think any defense is going to claim that this murder was the result of organized crime or career murderers).
In fact, usually the opposite happens of "framing" occurs, the murderer (who knows his victim) often tries to make it look like "an accident" (Drew Peterson) or "some other dude did it" (Chris Coleman), but even that doesn't work very often. Drew Peterson, a veteran LE, had the benefit of knowing exactly how to cover up a crime...and even he may not be able to continue to keep his freedom.
Yes, it would be interesting to know if any of Annie's roommates or her fiance or others heard Annie complain about Clark's behavior towards her. Of course, the courts would just say that is "hearsay", so hopefully Clark did send texts or emails that demonstrate his harassment.
Shlock Homes
09-23-2009, 07:54 PM
If someone framed RC then they've done a very good job. They knew the where and when of his meeting meeting with AL. They managed to get into the room she was killed in without swiping their card. They were able to steal and use his ID/swipe card without him knowing it was gone. They knew he always carried a green pen. They were able to transfer his DNA to Annie's body and the bloody clothes in the ceiling without transferring their own DNA. They were able to scratch his chest and arms to simulate defensive wounds. And that still doesn't explain failing the lie detector test or refusing a DNA test.
It wouldn't have been hard to frame Ray. If he leaves his scrubs lying around, they'll be full of DNA evidence. Card and pen, if he left those lying around, they could have also been taken. Or someone could have made a fake card. But that's just assuming that the card swipes are the indicator that a crime was committed. We don't know. If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place? If that place was crawling with students, it would be difficult for him to be in that area where her body was found for an hour or so they claim working on making the body fit.
They said it was adjacent to a bathroom. Was it ever closed off as being out of order? That's the only way I can think of it being used to conceal the body without anyone seeing what was happening.
The scratching wounds are not conclusive. He had them on his back as well. How did she get her fingers under his scrubs and shirt and reach to his back when she was supposedly in a choke hold from behind? He should have scratches on the more obvious places, like his face, or his lower arms.
But he might not have been framed. He might have been one person who was asked to do something, and somebody or some other people carried out a plan. At this point, the evidence suggesting that he committed an act of rage in the work place without any one seeing him do that, and move the body, is just not convincing enough. For instance, was he the only person scanning his card in that area after hours?
If she did scratch her attacker, then that evidence should still be under her fingernails.
JL50ish
09-23-2009, 09:44 PM
If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place?
There is a HUGE difference between "no business areas" and areas where he didn't likely need to go. "No Business" areas are forbidden and tightly restricted. While there are often many areas people CAN have access to, but they don't go to simply because their daily chores may not need them to go there. They may not be "refused" access because there could be reason for them to occasionally go there in response to a request or meeting.
Waddles
09-24-2009, 12:16 AM
It wouldn't have been hard to frame Ray. If he leaves his scrubs lying around, they'll be full of DNA evidence. Card and pen, if he left those lying around, they could have also been taken. Or someone could have made a fake card. But that's just assuming that the card swipes are the indicator that a crime was committed. We don't know. If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place? If that place was crawling with students, it would be difficult for him to be in that area where her body was found for an hour or so they claim working on making the body fit.
They said it was adjacent to a bathroom. Was it ever closed off as being out of order? That's the only way I can think of it being used to conceal the body without anyone seeing what was happening.
The scratching wounds are not conclusive. He had them on his back as well. How did she get her fingers under his scrubs and shirt and reach to his back when she was supposedly in a choke hold from behind? He should have scratches on the more obvious places, like his face, or his lower arms.
But he might not have been framed. He might have been one person who was asked to do something, and somebody or some other people carried out a plan. At this point, the evidence suggesting that he committed an act of rage in the work place without any one seeing him do that, and move the body, is just not convincing enough. For instance, was he the only person scanning his card in that area after hours?
If she did scratch her attacker, then that evidence should still be under her fingernails.
he did have significant scratches and scrapes and bruises to the lower arms, his eye and his ear -article in the news articles list, will have a look
Harmony2
09-24-2009, 08:33 AM
he did have significant scratches and scrapes and bruises to the lower arms, his eye and his ear -article in the news articles list, will have a look
http://gawker.com/5361611/raymond-clark-the-official-suspect
Sources also told the newspaper that Clark bore bruises, scratches and abrasions on his arms and chest, as well as a mark on his right ear and under his eye.
He said some of the injuries were suffered during a softball game, the others were cat scratches, according to the Register.
http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/doc4ab1b7c80e417441563894.txt
When he was questioned by the FBI, agents took note of numerous injuries on his body, the source said, including what appeared to be bruises and abrasions on his arms, a mark under his eye, a scratch on his ear, and a bruise or deep scratch to his chest.
When questioned, he said some of the injuries were a scratch from a cat. Others he attributed to playing softball.
Very Interesting
09-24-2009, 09:18 AM
I saw on FOX this morning yesterday LE found even more clues
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,554814,00.html?test=latestnews
Anybody know what they found?
Harmony2
09-24-2009, 09:25 AM
I saw on FOX this morning yesterday LE found even more clues
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,554814,00.html?test=latestnews
Anybody know what they found?
This may be related:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Media Reports **NO DISCUSSION**
RC is, allegedly, a clean freak. I don't see him leaving his scrubs lying around. Likewise with the green pen. In one picture of him it's neatly tucked into his left crest pocket (link below). IMO it's just not plausible that this man left these items lying around. He wasn't known for being sloppy. He was known for being a stickler to protocol.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.
PatientOne
09-24-2009, 12:22 PM
RC's HS girlfriend said this in her GMA interview the other day:
As the relationship progressed, so did his control, Del Rocco said, saying that if things weren't going his way, "he'd make them go his way."
"There were times he did frighten me," she said, saying that sometimes things got physical, which she said the police have asked her not to talk about. "He'd get this little look in his eye. Sometimes it was better to do what he said just to avoid the fight."
We already know this gf and her mother contacted police about rape but chose not to press charges against RC. Now I'm wondering if his physical means of control may have included attempted strangulation. I hope the HS gf doesn't do or say anything that could sabotage any testimony she may be called upon to give at the trial. If he choked her to control her, it seems to me her testimony would be germane. Testimony about the past rape claim would be as well if there's any evidence that RC sexually assaulted Annie. I'm not familiar enough with trials of this sort to know if such testimony would even be allowed. I certainly hope so though. I suppose it could be that unless the HS gf has tangible proof, her testimony could be shot down. Maybe WS members who know more about trial proceedings will share their insight.
panthera
09-24-2009, 08:52 PM
Nancy Grace is talking about the evidence found in the washroom drain and the discussion is about the scrubs and if it could be possible to even get them down into this drain. She's also asking how LE became aware of the evidence, whether a drain was clogged and a plumber called, who in turn called LE, or if LE was called before the plumber. NG is also questioning why LE didn't thoroughly go through the lab (drains, etc) before they cleared the crime scene. No mention what the "new evidence" is though! :waitasec:
Shlock Homes
09-24-2009, 09:19 PM
That is definitely a huge problem with this investigation. The law enforcement people did not secure the lab area once it was determined that Annie Le entered the building but never left. No one has said yet if it was possible to leave the lab area and go into another part of the building without being seen on camera.
With regards to the scratches, I've seen the pictures of him at his arraignment and he didn't have any visible marks. If he was involved in an altercation with another person and scratching had occurred, it would be quite apparent, even after a week or so. Heck, his fellow students and co-workers would have remarked on the nasty claw marks that would have been visible on his arms and face. I'm inclined to believe that those were caused by every day events that were described in some articles as being to due to his cat, and playing softball. There were probably many other things that cause scratches. If he had fought Annie Le, they would be very visible, and not on his back.
Noway
09-24-2009, 09:30 PM
I read they found his pen in the chase but have no link, so take that with grain of salt. IIRC, he was known to use a green pen?
Since Ray has yet to scream "I was framed!" IMO he wasn't.
ETA: Oh, that's old. Sorry.
The NY Daily News
"Clark did not want to be just some guy who cleans mouse cages, so he distinguished himself by always signing in for work with a pen that used green ink. Every day, including the day of the killing.
Investigators believe he dropped the pen at the scene and was unable to retrieve it after it fell into a crevice.
He apparently hoped to fish it out when he showed up at the lab the day after the killing with a backpack containing wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html#ixzz0S4td53Or
Shlock Homes
09-24-2009, 09:32 PM
I read they found his pen in the chase but have no link, so take that with grain of salt. IIRC, he was known to use a green pen?
Since Ray has yet to scream "I was framed!" IMO he wasn't.
I don't think it would matter if he said that or not, people wouldn't believe him. Oswald claimed he was a patsy, and no one believed him then. He is better off not saying anything right now.
Noway
09-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Granted, but if I was innocent and was framed, I'd still be yelling it. Wouldn't give a rat's ass if anyone believed me. Can't see how sitting in jail would be better off.
It seems that people here are saying Ray was framed for him. I don't see evidence of a frame up.
Stole phone to text Annie.
Stole ID card (or made fake one that worked with electronic system at Yale)
Stole scrubs for DNA. Removed any trace of their own DNA (from handling).
Stole pen to leave as evidence.
Once they killed Annie, they hugged Ray so the transfer of her DNA would be on him.
Convinced Ray to bring wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum to work the next day.
What am I missing?
I just find it too far fetched to believe Ray was framed. If he hadn't done these things, he would have said it during his hours of interrogation with LE. IMO
panthera
09-24-2009, 09:45 PM
Shlock Homes ~ I believe it has been stated there are no cameras inside the building in the basement. MOO
trigger
09-24-2009, 10:14 PM
With all the evidence LE has collected 250-300 pieces of evidence left at the scene, makes you say to yourself, this guy was a real jerk. Didn't he ever watch any crime shows?
Emily Booth
09-24-2009, 10:22 PM
RC was initially interviewed by the FBI and took the polygraph after Annie went missing. RC terminated the interview when he was asked about his cuts and abrasions. Annie was reported missing the evening of Tues Sept 8. RC did not go to softball Tues nor did he go to softball Thurs.
If RC is claiming his cuts and abrasions were due to cats/softball, then they would've occurred before Tues Sept 8. I would think LE would interview teammates and spectators to learn if there were any incidents during the game to cause cuts/abrasions. Cuts from cats are easy to identify since claws are a different shape from fingernails.
I looked at RC's booking photo and his right ear looks pink to me.
Harmony2
09-24-2009, 10:28 PM
Granted, but if I was innocent and was framed, I'd still be yelling it. Wouldn't give a rat's ass if anyone believed me. Can't see how sitting in jail would be better off.
It seems that people here are saying Ray was framed for him. I don't see evidence of a frame up.
Stole phone to text Annie.
Stole ID card (or made fake one that worked with electronic system at Yale)
Stole scrubs for DNA. Removed any trace of their own DNA (from handling).
Stole pen to leave as evidence.
Once they killed Annie, they hugged Ray so the transfer of her DNA would be on him.
Convinced Ray to bring wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum to work the next day.
What am I missing?
I just find it too far fetched to believe Ray was framed. If he hadn't done these things, he would have said it during his hours of interrogation with LE. IMO
~BBM and adding to your list~
7) stole work boots that have RC’s name on them and spattered Annie's blood on them
8) placed RC's DNA in the crawl space where Le's body was found along with her DNA
9) placed blood splattered cleaning items in a place where RC would clean and hide them
sources- http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-yale-student18-2009sep18,0,3083836.story
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html
Noway
09-25-2009, 12:54 PM
RC was initially interviewed by the FBI and took the polygraph after Annie went missing. RC terminated the interview when he was asked about his cuts and abrasions. Annie was reported missing the evening of Tues Sept 8. RC did not go to softball Tues nor did he go to softball Thurs.
If RC is claiming his cuts and abrasions were due to cats/softball, then they would've occurred before Tues Sept 8. I would think LE would interview teammates and spectators to learn if there were any incidents during the game to cause cuts/abrasions. Cuts from cats are easy to identify since claws are a different shape from fingernails.
I looked at RC's booking photo and his right ear looks pink to me.
Do you have a link to him not being at softball (practice?) Tuesday and Thursday? In the meantime, I'll search on my own.
I did find that he was playing softball the day Annie was found (Sunday).
On the day investigators found Yale (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Yale+University) grad student Annie Le (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Annie+Le)'s body stuffed behind a basement wall, her accused killer was playing softball.
Raymond Clark (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Raymond+Clark) 3rd betrayed no emotion as he played shortstop for his team, the Wild Hogs, in a playoff loss Sunday.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/19/2009-09-19_raymond_clark_played_softball_as_cops_closed_in _on_accused_annie_le_killer.html#ixzz0S8YtZnRE
From what I've read, he was not acting nervous and his teammates said his behavior was the same as any game.
I had wondered whether Ray was more aggressive at shortstop than usual in order to "cover up" some of his injuries.
Although IMO that would not make much sense since they have photographs of his injuries to some extent (it was at this point that he became nervous and asked for a lawyer).
Sloof
09-25-2009, 01:18 PM
I wonder if RC knew he was being tailed at some point and then decided to go the "business as usual" route (softball game, etc.) to avoid arousing even more suspicion. I know that LE began more visible means of surveillance at some point, one of the articles written about his POI-ness may say when exactly the surveillance became obvious rather than undercover.
Noway
09-25-2009, 04:09 PM
I wonder if RC knew he was being tailed at some point and then decided to go the "business as usual" route (softball game, etc.) to avoid arousing even more suspicion. I know that LE began more visible means of surveillance at some point, one of the articles written about his POI-ness may say when exactly the surveillance became obvious rather than undercover.
Annie Le Suspect Knew Cops Were On His Tail
by Paul Bass | September 18, 2009 5:56 PM | Permalink (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/annie_le_suspec.php) | Comments (44) (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/annie_le_suspec.php#comments)
(Updated)
A day after playing softball in New Haven and attending the Hebron Fair, the suspect in the murder of a Yale graduate student noticed the seven cops following him around. They wanted him to. ...
... Chief James Lewis assigned Velleca’s crew to follow around Raymond Clark III (pictured) starting Saturday night — and never let him out of their sight.
That was when it became clear that the case of Annie Le, the 24 year-old pharmacology student strangled to death last week inside a Yale medical building (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/post_480.php), was becoming a criminal case, not a missing person case.
...
Why the narc unit?
“That’s what they do” — follow suspects around, Lewis said. “They do that every night, working narcotics cases. They have the right kind of vehicles for it.” The department recently revamped the unit under Velleca’s command. (Read about that here (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/first_he_notice.php).)
http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/annie_le_suspec.php
Emily Booth
09-25-2009, 08:39 PM
RE: RC not going to his softball game Tues and Thurs, I had repeated info I read posted by one of our scientist/researcher posters, someone who is factual and credible, and I didn't think we could quote other posts.
So, I am researching this now and this is what I am finding:
RC played shortstop in an all-mens softball league in New Haven for a team called the Wild Hogs. The summer softball season started Sunday, May 10: http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/05/softball_saved.php This article mentions a Wild Hogs game on Monday night. You can see a photo of some of RC's teammates at the bottom of the article.
The New Haven softball schedule is Monday and Wednesday evenings and Sunday mornings. This is their website: http://newhavenumpires.clubspaces.com/PageCustom.aspx?id=69&o=321953 This is their facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1468514717 This schedule info conflicts with a newspaper article below.
There was a playoff game Wed Sept 9 and Sun Sept 13. Emails were sent Tues Sept 8 about the game Wed: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1468514717#/profile.php?id=1468514717&v=wall
The softball game that took place on the day Annie Le's body was found (the same day as her wedding) was a playoff game. RC liked to wear a David Wright Mets jersey: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/19/2009-09-19_raymond_clark_played_softball_as_cops_closed_in _on_accused_annie_le_killer.html
RC was a newcomer to the all-male league and joined the Wild Hogs this year: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/breaking/Yale-Student-Murder-091709-59606437.html But, he played with one of his teammates' brothers last year for a different league: http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2009/09/23/news/doc4abaee605354b522932592.txt. It is this article that mentions the Wild Hogs were without their shortstop Tuesday, September 24. Was this a newspaper error?
Maps of New Haven softball fields. The Wild Hogs played their games at Blake or East Shore: http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/parks/recreation/adult.asp
We know RC played softball on Sunday Sept 13. Did he play softball Sun Sept 6 and Wed Sept 9?
Emily Booth
09-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Found it! The fall Wild Hogs softball schedule is on Tuesdays and Thursdays at the CT Sportsplex: http://www.ctsportsplex.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132&Itemid=410
Looks like their fall schedule started Tuesday September 22. So, the newspaper article was correct for their fall schedule.
We still don't know if RC played softball Sun Sept 6 and Wed Sept 9. I'm going to post this question in the other thread.
Whew!
eyes4crime
09-25-2009, 10:10 PM
Found it! The fall Wild Hogs softball schedule is on Tuesdays and Thursdays at the CT Sportsplex: http://www.ctsportsplex.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132&Itemid=410
Looks like their fall schedule started Tuesday September 22. So, the newspaper article was correct for their fall schedule.
We still don't know if RC played softball Sun Sept 6 and Wed Sept 9. I'm going to post this question in the other thread.
Whew!
I think your line of questioning about the suspected perp Clark, before, during and after the crime is important, and will yield interesting and pertinent info. I would include this info in my time-line except I've learned not to confound a TL with multiple people. I try to keep it simple. Hopefully, a TL of Clark will be put together by a blogger using this great information. He is a most interesting character. mho
Nancy Grace is talking about the evidence found in the washroom drain and the discussion is about the scrubs and if it could be possible to even get them down into this drain. She's also asking how LE became aware of the evidence, whether a drain was clogged and a plumber called, who in turn called LE, or if LE was called before the plumber. NG is also questioning why LE didn't thoroughly go through the lab (drains, etc) before they cleared the crime scene. No mention what the "new evidence" is though! :waitasec:
This may or may not present a problem to the prosecution. We will have to wait and see.
I wanted to bang my head against the wall when I heard this though...sigh.
Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 10:47 PM
Granted, but if I was innocent and was framed, I'd still be yelling it. Wouldn't give a rat's ass if anyone believed me. Can't see how sitting in jail would be better off.
It seems that people here are saying Ray was framed for him. I don't see evidence of a frame up.
Stole phone to text Annie.
Stole ID card (or made fake one that worked with electronic system at Yale)
Stole scrubs for DNA. Removed any trace of their own DNA (from handling).
Stole pen to leave as evidence.
Once they killed Annie, they hugged Ray so the transfer of her DNA would be on him.
Convinced Ray to bring wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum to work the next day.
What am I missing?
I just find it too far fetched to believe Ray was framed. If he hadn't done these things, he would have said it during his hours of interrogation with LE. IMO
Good points!
Texts - you don't need a phone to send a text. Did the police say that the texts originated from Ray Clark's phone? They could have been sent from a PC, it's been done. Otherwise, we can also assume the text Ray sent was legit and he didn't just send it to entrap her in a murder. Perhaps Annie Le was just a target of convenience? Didn't someone mention a series of texts or emails that were sent to people around campus? I can't remember what that was all about.
ID Cards - they can be stolen or faked. Maybe even the records can be hacked into. Or Ray was legitimately going to those rooms because he had business going there. It was September 8th, the beginning of the school year. His routines would not be the same than if you were talking about mid term like November. If Ray did kill her and was going to the trouble of concealing her body, he would also conceal his card swipes. All he had to do is take her card off her body. Problem solved. Did they say if her card was on her body?
Stolen Scrubs - They could have done that, and worn their own scrubs and gloves to prevent their own DNA from rubbing on the victim. What was the clothing found in the ceiling? Did they ever identify if they were men's or women's clothing? I take it that Ray wouldn't come to work in his scrubs, so I think by the same token, he'd leave them at work. So where would he leave it? In a locker with a lock? Or just hanging somewhere?
Stolen Pen - not unusual. If Ray put it down, someone could have picked it up. If he left it in his scrubs, and he took off his scrubs, then they'd have access to the pen too. Is there any testimony from students that Ray talked about losing his pen? Did anyone find it weird that he was using a different pen? We're assuming, of course, that reports that he preferred that pen are true.
Annie's DNA on Ray Clark's clothes - that is harder to explain. Which clothing did they find it on? Was it clothing they know he wore that week? Or was it clothing from weeks earlier? If he had killed her with particular clothing on, then there would be blood, right? Then he would have destroyed that evidence long ago. And her DNA couldn't be on him, unless he didn't wash for a week and a half.
The fishing hooks, wire and gum - who saw him with this the next day? Is that why the police looked at him funny in the first place? If he was going to fish out his pen, he wouldn't literally use fishing hooks. It would be very difficult to get a pen with that contraption. Even MacGyver couldn't do that. Gum would require pressure to make it stick enough to pick up the pen. He'd be better off using something like fly paper on the end of a string. And he certainly wouldn't do it during the day time when people were around.
We don't know what Ray said to LE. They're only telling us what they want us to hear to build their case against Clark in the public media.
Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:02 PM
~BBM and adding to your list~
7) stole work boots that have RC’s name on them and spattered Annie's blood on them
8) placed RC's DNA in the crawl space where Le's body was found along with her DNA
9) placed blood splattered cleaning items in a place where RC would clean and hide them
Thank you for the links. I like how they use a 'source', nothing from law enforcement is credited with the evidence.
Work boots - where were these kept, at his apartment or in the lab? If he had killed her with them, he would have disposed them. When did the police find this damning piece of evidence?
DNA in crawl space - Again, this could be achieved by taking the DNA from his work clothes. They did not disclose the exact location of this DNA. Was it on Le's body? Did she have his skin cells under her nails?
Blood Spatter Items - when was he seen doing this? Why was he given access to the crime scene if they were worried about contaminating or hiding evidence? One person might see hiding, while another person might see tidying up. Was he told not to touch anything and still did it, or was he trying to move stuff around so investigators could get a better look at the area? He was the lab tech, after all, and not some random student, so keeping the place organized was his job.
Clark's supervisors said his work with them gave no indication this was possible. In other words, no history of dangerous confrontations or incidents worthy of his termination.
Sola.N
09-25-2009, 11:26 PM
(snipped)
The fishing hooks, wire and gum - who saw him with this the next day? Is that why the police looked at him funny in the first place? If he was going to fish out his pen, he wouldn't literally use fishing hooks. It would be very difficult to get a pen with that contraption. Even MacGyver couldn't do that. Gum would require pressure to make it stick enough to pick up the pen. He'd be better off using something like fly paper on the end of a string. And he certainly wouldn't do it during the day time when people were around.
(snipped)
Y'know, that story about the fishing hooks and gum has bugged me, too. A little wad of duct tape would have done the trick. I don't think gum would work at all for this.
I'm not at the point where I'd go so far as to say RC didn't do it, but there are definitely some things about the case that's being built in the media that just don't make sense.
Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:33 PM
I had posted this question in another thread, but pulled it because I misunderstood the thread. This was in the Question and Answer thread and the link was posted there regarding the first paragraph below:
For the failed polygraph test, it's not clear what exactly made him fail it. When he was asked if he had seen Annie Le that morning, he said yes, he didn't say no. And when he said yes, he failed the test? Does that mean he didn't see her? Or did they ask him questions that would have made him fail, like 'did you feel Annie Le treated her mice properly', and he said 'yes'?
Notice all of these stories just quote a 'source'. Most people would not view that as reliable testimony, unless the source was part of law enforcement. They're just feeding the media bits and pieces of evidence that look like they point to guilt, but when you look deeper, like the polygraph test, you're only being fed a whole lot of insinuation.
Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:38 PM
Y'know, that story about the fishing hooks and gum has bugged me, too. A little wad of duct tape would have done the trick. I don't think gum would work at all for this.
I'm not at the point where I'd go so far as to say RC didn't do it, but there are definitely some things about the case that's being built in the media that just don't make sense.
The main problem is that the media is quoting unnamed sources. They don't even say if these sources are from law enforcement or what, when it comes to the evidence against Clark. And a lot of it is very subjective. For example, if Ray Clark was seen washing his hands thoroughly on Sept 9th, a 'source' could have said 'it was suspicious that Ray Clark was washing his hands, as if he was trying to hide something'. You know what I mean? It's all insinuation that doesn't necessarily point to true evidence.
eyes4crime
09-25-2009, 11:40 PM
I had posted this question in another thread, but pulled it because I misunderstood the thread. This was in the Question and Answer thread and the link was posted there regarding the first paragraph below:
For the failed polygraph test, it's not clear what exactly made him fail it. When he was asked if he had seen Annie Le that morning, he said yes, he didn't say no. And when he said yes, he failed the test? Does that mean he didn't see her? Or did they ask him questions that would have made him fail, like 'did you feel Annie Le treated her mice properly', and he said 'yes'?
Notice all of these stories just quote a 'source'. Most people would not view that as reliable testimony, unless the source was part of law enforcement. They're just feeding the media bits and pieces of evidence that look like they point to guilt, but when you look deeper, like the polygraph test, you're only being fed a whole lot of insinuation.
Not sure I follow your thinking. Are you suggesting LE asked questions assuring that Clark would fail the polygraph? Even though the LD is not admissible in court, I'm not sure why LE would intentionally cause it to be a 'false positive'. Can you?
Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:49 PM
Not sure I follow your thinking. Are you suggesting LE asked questions assuring that Clark would fail the polygraph? Even though the LD is not admissible in court, I'm not sure why LE would intentionally cause it to be a 'false positive'. Can you?
To be quite honest, I don't know the answer to that. I'd have to see the questions asked. If they thought the other students were not so suspicious, but they though Clark was suspicious, then they might frame the questions in such a way that would implicate him. That bias could affect the outcome of the test. Or, it could just be that he is anxiety prone. Someone posted a link to an article where they interviewed some previous neighbours. One kid said the guy seemed crazy and controlling because Clark yelled about some stuff left in the hallway. Another kid described what sounded like the same situation, but said it was a one time thing and it was regarding trash in the hallway. That same kid also said Clark wasn't very friendly, like he'd acknowledge you by waving his hand but not looking at you. That might point to him being somewhat introverted, perhaps not someone who is confident around people, and thus an anxiety prone personality?
Emily Booth
09-26-2009, 12:28 AM
I would think a standardized list of questions applied to everyone would be used? For example, do you know where Annie Le is? The answer is either yes or no.
Someone with a borderline personality with sociopathic tendencies would be a loner.
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 08:29 AM
Card Swiping - Ray Clark's card was swiped into the same room that Annie Le was in. Have they released the time? Was it 5 minutes? Was it 10 minutes? According to the article below, card swipes show him leaving the building several times. But they don't mention the video evidence showing that. Wouldn't he have been seen on video, or is there a way to enter and leave the building without being seen on camera?
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-dna-match-annie-le-raymond-clark-iii-yale,0,1800237.story
Police believe that Clark tried to clean up the crime scene after disposing of Le's body, sources said. The computer record of his movements between laboratories using his swipe card show he left the building several times and also moved between several rooms, including some that he had no reason to be in, a source said.
Blood Evidence - it's been written that there was blood evidence on some equipment and tiny droplets in the room. If she was beaten, there should have been quite a bit, and it would have been all over the place. Plus, there would have been evidence of thorough cleaning. Also, the room in question, was it the mice room that Annie Le's work was located in?
And regarding the ease at which DNA can be transferred from one person to another.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/yale-suspect-s-attorney-to-file-complaint-on-new-leaks-1.1462449
"DNA can be transferred in many, many ways, and when people work together, DNA can be transferred in ways that are very legitimate," said Hartford defense attorney Michael Georgetti
At this point, Ray Clark is using a public defender. Unless this defender has a good track record, I have a feeling he's already screwed. Wrongful convictions are sometimes due to a person not having adequate counsel to defend themselves. If you can afford a high-priced, yet successful defense lawyer, you've got a better chance than using a public defender who is employed by the government.
PatientOne
09-26-2009, 11:51 AM
Y'know, that story about the fishing hooks and gum has bugged me, too. A little wad of duct tape would have done the trick. I don't think gum would work at all for this.
I'm not at the point where I'd go so far as to say RC didn't do it, but there are definitely some things about the case that's being built in the media that just don't make sense.
Fishing hooks, wire, and gum suggest to me the green pen wasn't jammed in a crevice and needed to be pried out. It suggests to me the possibility that the pen was in the chase and needed to be fished out.
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 01:03 PM
Fishing hooks, wire, and gum suggest to me the green pen wasn't jammed in a crevice and needed to be pried out. It suggests to me the possibility that the pen was in the chase and needed to be fished out.
You should try it first to see if it's even practical. It doesn't matter whether it's in a crevice, chase, or on the floor in front of him. You can't stick gum well enough to a pen to lift it. You need an adhesive like duct tape, fly paper, etc...
How did they know he had it the next day? Were they searching people's belongings? If he volunteered his bag, then he had nothing to hide. Otherwise, they probably would have needed warrants to do that if he refused.
eyes4crime
09-26-2009, 01:25 PM
Card Swiping - Ray Clark's card was swiped into the same room that Annie Le was in. Have they released the time? Was it 5 minutes? Was it 10 minutes? According to the article below, card swipes show him leaving the building several times. But they don't mention the video evidence showing that. Wouldn't he have been seen on video, or is there a way to enter and leave the building without being seen on camera?
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-dna-match-annie-le-raymond-clark-iii-yale,0,1800237.story
Police believe that Clark tried to clean up the crime scene after disposing of Le's body, sources said. The computer record of his movements between laboratories using his swipe card show he left the building several times and also moved between several rooms, including some that he had no reason to be in, a source said.
Blood Evidence - it's been written that there was blood evidence on some equipment and tiny droplets in the room. If she was beaten, there should have been quite a bit, and it would have been all over the place. Plus, there would have been evidence of thorough cleaning. Also, the room in question, was it the mice room that Annie Le's work was located in?
And regarding the ease at which DNA can be transferred from one person to another.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/yale-suspect-s-attorney-to-file-complaint-on-new-leaks-1.1462449
"DNA can be transferred in many, many ways, and when people work together, DNA can be transferred in ways that are very legitimate," said Hartford defense attorney Michael Georgetti
At this point, Ray Clark is using a public defender. Unless this defender has a good track record, I have a feeling he's already screwed. Wrongful convictions are sometimes due to a person not having adequate counsel to defend themselves. If you can afford a high-priced, yet successful defense lawyer, you've got a better chance than using a public defender who is employed by the government.
From the time-line:
Sept. 8th (10:00a) - Annie on video being let into building on Amistad.
- moments later passed through basement lab area
- Annie swipes her way into a separate room of lab (last card swipe for Annie)
- CLARK enters same room short time later
- Clark moves around laboratory entering rooms he normally would not be in.
- Clark swipes into another area -- the place where Le's body eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall.
- Clark swiped a total of 10 times including after hours
-Clark spends an hour in the room with Annie's body.
THE ABOVE INFORMATION FROM COMPUTERIZED CARD SWIPES
Shlock Homes: Not sure what room Clark was in for an hour - the room she was murdered in or the room where the wall had been deconstructed so as to fit her body. IMO it would be next to impossible to overlook a fresh crime scene or recent work on the wall. Also, every person in the building was caught on camera and followed via card swipes, leaving little, if any, guesswork for LE as to the whereabouts and identity of each person. Regarding the transfer of DNA: Tiny blood droplets found in a room may not by itself, be incriminating, but if the DNA was in the form of blood, hair, fibers, and/or tissue on Clark or on his clothes - the forensics could be overwhelming and solidify guilt.
Regarding the competency of an attorney - Our Constitution guarantees a good defense and if a person feels he/she doesn't have a competent defense, a suit can be brought forward. I'm worried about that very thing in the Drew Peterson case. Usually I look at a case through the eyes of the defense and prosecution - thanks for being the eyes of the defense for Clark.
YellowDog
09-26-2009, 03:04 PM
I wonder if anyone else swiped into that room after Annie besides Clark? How do you think the body was transported from one room to another? Laundry cart? Was anyone else in the basement area during that time frame and, if so, how did he avoid attracting attention? Was the hour spent with Annie's body in the first room where the murder occured or in the room where her body was placed in the wall? What was he doing back in the building after hours? Cleaning up? Was Annie dead when her body was placed in the wall or did she die later and he went back to make sure she was dead?
Noway
09-26-2009, 06:51 PM
My understanding of the media reports that LE wants me to read to bolster their case is that of all the cards that were swiped, only Ray Clark went everywhere that Annie Le did (and as noted above, stayed for an hour in the room where her body was later found).
I'll find that media report link. Until then .... IMO
ETA: Some of these may have been posted, but I'm putting them here as I come across them. My thoughts are in blue and red.
Along with the defensive wounds and the flunked lie detector test, investigators looking into the murder of Yale student Annie Le focused on a lab technician named Raymond Clark because of e-mails about the care of laboratory mice.
In the e-mails, Clark is said to criticize Le for not adhering to the protocols for tending the mice kept in the basement as part of her lab's ongoing experiments. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFzqW vWQ
I'm confused. Media does not seem clear on whether the messages were email or text messages (maybe both?). Regardless, text messages can be sent from computers and email messages can be sent from phones.
Investigators also noted swipe card records that are said to show Clark usually went through the building in an orderly fashion in accordance with the demands of his work.
But the swipe card records from the day Le disappeared show Clark moving from room to room with no apparent logic, at points going to places unrelated to his job.Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFzHd jWD
Clark left the building at the time of a fire alarm. Surveillance camera footage is said to show him looking considerably more distraught than could be explained by a simple evacuation. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFza1 TQ5
Investigators traced Le's and Clark's movements through their computerized swipe cards, said the source, who is familiar with the investigation. Le entered the Yale laboratory at 10 Amistad St. at about 10 a.m. on Sept. 8. She passed through a basement lab area moments later. Then she swiped her way into a separate room of that lab. http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story
IMO that makes: 1) Main entrance 2) Basement lab area and 3) Separate room of the basement lab for Annie Le.
Clark entered that same room a short time later, the source said, citing the computer records. Le was never seen again and her card was never used again.
Clark had moved around the laboratory area quite a bit that day, including entering rooms that he normally would not expected to be in, the source said.
Clark also swiped into another area -- the place where Le's body was eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wallhttp://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story
That same room is "the separate room of the basement lab where Annie Le's last swipe took place.
IMO, this means Ray left the "separate room of the lab" and entered one that required a lab swipe. IT WAS HERE that Annie's body was eventually found, but her card was never used again after entering "the separate room" mentioned above.
Based on the article above: Her card was not used after she entered the separate room of the lab. Yet she was found in ANOTHER area, one that required card swiping. How did she get there? Hmm ... whose card was used in that area: Ray Clark's.
Was anyone else's card used to enter that room from September 8 to September 13?
Sloof
09-26-2009, 06:58 PM
I seem to have remember it being reported (kudos if you find this for me) that not only were a simple keycard entry needed but also a metal key for many of the areas that RC visited during the time when his movements were extremely erratic in the building after AL's death including after-hours.
scandi
09-26-2009, 07:21 PM
You should try it first to see if it's even practical. It doesn't matter whether it's in a crevice, chase, or on the floor in front of him. You can't stick gum well enough to a pen to lift it. You need an adhesive like duct tape, fly paper, etc...
How did they know he had it the next day? Were they searching people's belongings? If he volunteered his bag, then he had nothing to hide. Otherwise, they probably would have needed warrants to do that if he refused.
Hi Sherlock, Sometimes the most intelligent of people are not always smart. If he used what he had rigged together he evidently had not thought about the application to realize it would not work.
BTW, if it was chewed sugarless gum it would stick to something even if it was wet! lol
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 07:24 PM
Shlock Homes: Not sure what room Clark was in for an hour - the room she was murdered in or the room where the wall had been deconstructed so as to fit her body. IMO it would be next to impossible to overlook a fresh crime scene or recent work on the wall. Also, every person in the building was caught on camera and followed via card swipes, leaving little, if any, guesswork for LE as to the whereabouts and identity of each person. Regarding the transfer of DNA: Tiny blood droplets found in a room may not by itself, be incriminating, but if the DNA was in the form of blood, hair, fibers, and/or tissue on Clark or on his clothes - the forensics could be overwhelming and solidify guilt.
The part about him being in a room for an hour with her body can be misleading. Which room are they referring to? The one with the chase or the one with her mice (is that the last room she swiped into)?
Also, the reports about her body being mutilated to fit into the space, I'm not totally convinced those were false. The unnamed source for all this evidence would not have also thrown out a red herring like that. From the description in that story of broken bones, they were there witnessing the body's removal. I don't think anyone other than police and forensics would have been witness to that, unless they used university maintenance people to open up the chase and they witnessed the body. That could explain the blood, because strangling wouldn't give off blood spatter or lead to bloody clothing.
I would imagine that if Clark was actively engaged in cleaning up the evidence of his crime, including disposing of his clothes, he wouldn't have left it lying around for police to find. It would have been tossed in a dumpster somewhere way out of town, for example.
Regarding the competency of an attorney - Our Constitution guarantees a good defense and if a person feels he/she doesn't have a competent defense, a suit can be brought forward. I'm worried about that very thing in the Drew Peterson case. Usually I look at a case through the eyes of the defense and prosecution - thanks for being the eyes of the defense for Clark.
I've seen so many people have nothing but contempt for Clark based on all the leaks, but they fail to see that the leaks don't point to guilt. And it's also not fair for the defendant to have that information leaked out, but not other information that could exonerate him get released too. Like how many people were in the lab area between 10am and the alarm at 12:40pm when Clark is seen leaving. Or if someone could conceivably get in and out of that area without being seen on camera.
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 07:28 PM
Hi Sherlock, Sometimes the most intelligent of people are not always smart. If he used what he had rigged together he evidently had not thought about the application to realize it would not work.
BTW, if it was chewed sugarless gum it would stick to something even if it was wet! lol
That could be true. But it is a bit of a contradiction. He was able to conceal the evidence of the crime for a number of days, including hiding the body, all without being seen by anybody. And he was bold enough to hang around with all the investigators prowling about. But he wasn't smart enough to dispose of the clothing he wore to commit the murders? And if he dropped his pen in the chase, did anyone notice him with a different pen after, or did he explain what happened to his green pen, which we are only assuming was his trademark pen based on what some unnamed source said. For all we know, he liked to use several pens, or the green pen was only used when signing certain documents.
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 07:37 PM
I wonder if anyone else swiped into that room after Annie besides Clark? How do you think the body was transported from one room to another? Laundry cart? Was anyone else in the basement area during that time frame and, if so, how did he avoid attracting attention? Was the hour spent with Annie's body in the first room where the murder occured or in the room where her body was placed in the wall? What was he doing back in the building after hours? Cleaning up? Was Annie dead when her body was placed in the wall or did she die later and he went back to make sure she was dead?
Those are questions I'd like to know. Were there times when Ray Clark would have been completely alone in that basement to do what he was accused of doing? Did the body get transported within the time they claim he swiped into there? We have to all remember that the coroner hasn't released the time of death yet. We're all assuming she died on September 8th. If she was lured somewhere, drugged, and kept a prisoner for whatever reason, and killed a day or two later, that would of course affect the time of death.
I'd also like to have confirmation on the state of her body. If she was crushed to fit into that space, then that would take a lot of work to do. He couldn't do that without being seen. It would also leave a lot of blood and tissue fragments behind. That might be why they were searching some mouse cage cleaning area.
The police waited a long time to close off the basement. Who knows when the body was moved into place. Did they have posted guards in there to keep an eye on any movements after hours?
Also, there was an interview with a student who said she worked in a room that was right beside where the body was found, and Ryan was there too. Nothing was mentioned if he was nervous, or kept looking at the wall, etc... I think the article is linked in the stickies at the top of the forum. I just remember it being linked in one of these threads.
And was the body placed into the chase using the access panel or door that is used to open it up, or was it in a manner that would have required it to have been placed in there from some other location or method?
Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Based on the article above: Her card was not used after she entered the separate room of the lab. Yet she was found in ANOTHER area, one that required card swiping. How did she get there? Hmm ... whose card was used in that area: Ray Clark's.
Was anyone else's card used to enter that room from September 8 to September 13?
[/B]
The lab was not closed off, so from my understanding, many people could have come and gone during that time. I can't remember the exact link, someone posted it, but there was an article from an anonymous student who said they worked in the same room or area the body was found with Ray Clark there as well. I don't think it was some out of the way room that didn't get used that often.
If they could put out some diagram information, it would be helpful. If they're basing their body disposal theory on his swipe for that day, then what will they do if her time of death indicates she died some time later? Or what about the number of swipes by other people going into that same area that they claim he went to dispose of her body? They don't really build a convincing case because it's not what they say that concerns me, but what they don't say.
Noway
09-26-2009, 07:46 PM
I seem to have remember it being reported (kudos if you find this for me) that not only were a simple keycard entry needed but also a metal key for many of the areas that RC visited during the time when his movements were extremely erratic in the building after AL's death including after-hours.
I don't remember anything about a metal key but will search my file where I've copied and pasted a mess of stuff to read later. The only mention of "metal" that I recall is that the chase was covered with a metal panel.
But suffice to say, as far as building security is concerned, they knew, 99.9 percent certain who is in the basement at the time that Annie Le swiped her card, her ID card, and got access. You have to swipe it twice, apparently, to get into that basement lab.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,550663,00.html
Noway
09-26-2009, 07:49 PM
And I agree that not closing off the lab (but why would they for a missing person?) was a big mistake in hindsight.
If 20 people or 100 people went into that room where Annie was eventually found and only Ray's DNA is found on Annie, I wonder what that means.
ETA: And by "only Ray's DNA is found on Annie" I mean when forensically tested not as reported by the media.
Harmony2
09-28-2009, 10:29 AM
EXCELLENT INTERACTIVE TIMELINE
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-timeline-vuvox-html,0,2065297.htmlstory
note: clicking on the + signs provides more background information
YellowDog
09-28-2009, 03:03 PM
Well, here's a thought. Couldn't someone else have gone through those doors at the same time Clark did by going through with him on his swipes? If that be the case, he definitely could have had help with both the killing and the disposal of the body. I wonder if there are surveillance cameras within the building.
Shlock Homes
09-28-2009, 09:42 PM
Is there a reason why they can't release the full security video of Annie entering the lab?
Shlock Homes
09-28-2009, 09:44 PM
Well, here's a thought. Couldn't someone else have gone through those doors at the same time Clark did by going through with him on his swipes? If that be the case, he definitely could have had help with both the killing and the disposal of the body. I wonder if there are surveillance cameras within the building.
From what I understand, the building has 70 cameras, but only one showing the basement area at the entrance. I still have yet to find out if there's a way to enter or exit the basement without being seen on video. Maybe the person who killed her never intended for her body to leave the building, otherwise why not kill her on her way to the school from her apartment? Or kidnap her off the street and kill her far away. It would be less risky than committing a murder and hiding the body within the building, unless they wanted her body to stay in there for some twisted reason.
If Clark was trying to conceal other people's identities when swiping, why didn't he use Annie's card when swiping into other areas of the lab? If he knew about the camera at the entrance, then he would have known about the tracked card swipes.
Sola.N
09-29-2009, 09:16 AM
Excellent points, Shlock. I think this is going to turn out to be an argument that got way out of hand. I don't think this murder was part of a plan.
Shlock Homes
09-29-2009, 07:13 PM
Excellent points, Shlock. I think this is going to turn out to be an argument that got way out of hand. I don't think this murder was part of a plan.
An argument that must have been heard by someone.
Skigirl
09-29-2009, 08:34 PM
An argument that must have been heard by someone.
Not necessarily. People have been quoted as saying that the rooms were soundproof, you could scream without being heard, and that the basement is sparsely occupied. That pretty much fits with my experiences in the other buildings on that part of campus.
Noway
10-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Well, here's a thought. Couldn't someone else have gone through those doors at the same time Clark did by going through with him on his swipes? If that be the case, he definitely could have had help with both the killing and the disposal of the body. I wonder if there are surveillance cameras within the building.
And he ended up the fall guy. Poor sap.
Shlock Homes
10-01-2009, 09:36 PM
And he ended up the fall guy. Poor sap.
We'll have to wait until the trial to find that out. I think if he acted normally and didn't exhibit any odd changes in behaviour after allegedly killing her, he had nothing to do with it. I've been following the Ryan Jenkins case (regarding the killing of Jasmine Fiore) and he was accused of murdering her even though his behaviour after her death was pretty normal. He didn't try to hide his movements or his whereabouts. He probably didn't think Jasmine was dead because she had a habit of disappearing.
I don't know if at Yale in immediate the days after Annie disappeared that people thought she was murdered. It sounds like everything was business as usual, except for a few FBI agents prowling around in the garbage.
Chanler
10-01-2009, 10:47 PM
We'll have to wait until the trial to find that out. I think if he acted normally and didn't exhibit any odd changes in behaviour after allegedly killing her, he had nothing to do with it. I've been following the Ryan Jenkins case (regarding the killing of Jasmine Fiore) and he was accused of murdering her even though his behaviour after her death was pretty normal. He didn't try to hide his movements or his whereabouts. He probably didn't think Jasmine was dead because she had a habit of disappearing.
I don't know if at Yale in immediate the days after Annie disappeared that people thought she was murdered. It sounds like everything was business as usual, except for a few FBI agents prowling around in the garbage.
Hi, Shlock Homes, as I said on another thread: I don't think that he did act normally on that day. He appeared entered (and thus also left) the lab building ten times that day. (I've been working for over forty years and I've never done that once.) Police on the scene thought that he was acting suspiciously and he cleaned up areas that later yielded DNA.
I think that people at Yale treated Annie's vanishing as a probable act of violence from the very first day. She was on camera entering the building; she wasn't on camera leaving. The presence of the New Haven police, Yale security, and the FBI indicates just that.
Sloof
10-01-2009, 11:10 PM
I agree with Chanler.
LE's claims of no POIs early on is textbook investigation. They had a pretty good idea from the beginning, they just needed to make their case bulletproof before they served the arrest warrant.
RC's Public Defenders' increasingly desperate plight to keep the whole of the evidence, warrant/affidavit sealed throughout the trial suggests that the evidence is so damning, there's no way RC would get a fair trial. They'll probably try to move the case way out to rural CT and keep the evidence sealed as long as possible.
Noway
10-02-2009, 12:28 PM
Ray has more than public defender, doesn't he? Or did David quit?
David Dworski – Attorney representing Ray Clark. http://dworskilaw.com/criminaldefense.html
Here is my post where I found media reports that David Dworski was Ray's attorney.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Clark's Legal Counsel
Emily Booth
10-02-2009, 04:21 PM
I agree with Chanler.
LE's claims of no POIs early on is textbook investigation. They had a pretty good idea from the beginning, they just needed to make their case bulletproof before they served the arrest warrant.
RC's Public Defenders' increasingly desperate plight to keep the whole of the evidence, warrant/affidavit sealed throughout the trial suggests that the evidence is so damning, there's no way RC would get a fair trial. They'll probably try to move the case way out to rural CT and keep the evidence sealed as long as possible.
I think an extension has already been granted, hasn't it, re: keeping the warrant sealed. RC has some very good attorneys working on his behalf and they're doing what they're suppose to be doing, getting their client a fair trial. I find it ironic that one of his attorneys is about the same height as Annie.
Noway
10-04-2009, 09:41 PM
Ray has more than public defender, doesn't he? Or did David quit?
David Dworski – Attorney representing Ray Clark. http://dworskilaw.com/criminaldefense.html
Here is my post where I found media reports that David Dworski was Ray's attorney.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Clark's Legal Counsel (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4235503&postcount=17)
Answering myself: He has quit.
David Dworski – Attorney who at one time represented Raymond John Clark III. Clark appeared in court with two public defenders who were new to the case. A private-practice attorney who had represented him during the investigation did not attend the hearing and said Thursday he no longer represents Clark. The attorney declined to give a reason. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_289697.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/arrested-raymond-clark-ii_n_289697.html)
Easy come, easy go!
Anyone missing from the list? Let us know!
Shlock Homes
12-10-2009, 10:23 PM
I thought about this but never asked this before: Have other images of Annie Le entering the Amistad building been released? Is it unusual that they wouldn't show the full video, just a snap shot? Maybe there were people on the video, for instance, who could have been key to Annie's disappearance at the time. Plus, there was never any speculation as to what she was carrying, which could have been important to find her whereabouts or her last known location after her card scan.
(update) Okay, I was able to find a wider angled image of Annie Le from that surveillance footage. It was on a news report posted on youtube. Was it ever mentioned if the image was taken on the ground floor or in the lab area? The image seems to show her carrying items Ray Clark said he saw her leaving with around 12:30pm when he said he last saw her: a notebook and two bags of mouse food.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1088&pictureid=9137
Here's another one I found on myfoxny.com in a video story
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/connecticut/090914_Yale_Students_Body_Identified
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1088&pictureid=9138
Chanler
12-16-2009, 09:53 PM
I thought about this but never asked this before: Have other images of Annie Le entering the Amistad building been released? Is it unusual that they wouldn't show the full video, just a snap shot? Maybe there were people on the video, for instance, who could have been key to Annie's disappearance at the time. Plus, there was never any speculation as to what she was carrying, which could have been important to find her whereabouts or her last known location after her card scan.
(update) Okay, I was able to find a wider angled image of Annie Le from that surveillance footage. It was on a news report posted on youtube. Was it ever mentioned if the image was taken on the ground floor or in the lab area? The image seems to show her carrying items Ray Clark said he saw her leaving with around 12:30pm when he said he last saw her: a notebook and two bags of mouse food.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1088&pictureid=9137
Here's another one I found on myfoxny.com in a video story
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/connecticut/090914_Yale_Students_Body_Identified
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1088&pictureid=9138
Hi, Shlock Homes. I don't think that it's unusual that a full video hasn't been released. It is likely to be evidence at the trial. To me, these copies
appear derivative and I don't see anything readily identifiable as mouse food. (Most labs would provide such food, not require researchers to bring it.)
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