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SeriouslySearching
09-16-2009, 02:35 PM
The Cause Of Death is Traumatic Asphyxia according to preliminary reports. Please post all information regarding the Autopsy here.

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- The medical examiner has ruled Annie Le's cause of death to be from traumatic asphyxia due to neck compression. The medical examiner called the manner of 24-year-old Le's death to be a homicide.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/20945583/detail.html BBM

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 02:38 PM
& just to add to this, I think they said "traumatic asphyxiation" is strangulation...

Thanks SeriouslySearching:blowkiss:

KR2tonenow
09-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Thanks SS. Is the blood from the clothes found in ceiling tile, from the scratches on Clark's body then?
In other words, since strangulation is the COD, do we assume there was no blood found from Le?

static
09-16-2009, 03:26 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

traumatic asphyxia or crush asphyxia is usually used to describe compressive asphyxia resulting from being crushed or pinned under a large weight or force. An example of traumatic asphyxia includes cases in which an individual has been using a car-jack to repair a car from below, only to be crushed under the weight of the vehicle[2]

static
09-16-2009, 03:28 PM
I wonder if some sort of object was held against her throat...truly hope they have fingerprints.

Mendara
09-16-2009, 03:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

traumatic asphyxia or crush asphyxia is usually used to describe compressive asphyxia resulting from being crushed or pinned under a large weight or force. An example of traumatic asphyxia includes cases in which an individual has been using a car-jack to repair a car from below, only to be crushed under the weight of the vehicle[2]

oh god oh god what did he do to her?

Kat
09-16-2009, 05:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

traumatic asphyxia or crush asphyxia is usually used to describe compressive asphyxia resulting from being crushed or pinned under a large weight or force. An example of traumatic asphyxia includes cases in which an individual has been using a car-jack to repair a car from below, only to be crushed under the weight of the vehicle[2]

Thank you static.

I would also like to add this as a consideration too.

It could be done by a forearm being held down on the throat with the victim back against the ground. A choke-hold. Or it could also be with the victim standing and the hands of the perp crushing the delicate organs in the neck.

Annie was not a large woman. Quite petite. I don't imagine that it would take much force to cause a crush injury to her neck. JMHO.

Harmony2
09-16-2009, 07:28 PM
Warning: graphic material

To understand the Law of Strangulation
♦ To identify Strangulation
– Methods
–Symptomology
– Evidence Sources; and,
– Investigative Techniques

http://www.sog.unc.edu/programs/ncmagistrates/documents/Parker4DVStrangulation1-12-08.pdf

(mods: please delete if too offensive)

Kat
09-16-2009, 07:34 PM
Warning: graphic material

To understand the Law of Strangulation
♦ To identify Strangulation
– Methods
–Symptomology
– Evidence Sources; and,
– Investigative Techniques

http://www.sog.unc.edu/programs/ncmagistrates/documents/Parker4DVStrangulation1-12-08.pdf

(mods: please delete if too offensive)

Not offensive at all Harmony. Very good power point slide show.

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:14 PM
Warning: graphic material

To understand the Law of Strangulation
♦ To identify Strangulation
– Methods
–Symptomology
– Evidence Sources; and,
– Investigative Techniques

http://www.sog.unc.edu/programs/ncmagistrates/documents/Parker4DVStrangulation1-12-08.pdf

(mods: please delete if too offensive)
that was great! Thank you!

Noway
09-17-2009, 11:48 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

traumatic asphyxia or crush asphyxia is usually used to describe compressive asphyxia resulting from being crushed or pinned under a large weight or force. An example of traumatic asphyxia includes cases in which an individual has been using a car-jack to repair a car from below, only to be crushed under the weight of the vehicle[2]

I'd wondered if she could have asphyxiated while being in the cramped 2x2 space. If her knees were up to her chest or throat ... but it sounds like that would not have given enough force?

joypath
09-17-2009, 12:01 PM
No, COD was due to pressure strangulation vs positional strangulation, windpipe occulusion. Beyond confirming that the death occurred from the hands of another, that's the sum total of released aka leaked information. More MAY be released OFFICIALLY at a later date but probably not until after the next arraignment of Clark

t93
09-17-2009, 12:15 PM
Warning: graphic material

To understand the Law of Strangulation
♦ To identify Strangulation
– Methods
–Symptomology
– Evidence Sources; and,
– Investigative Techniques

http://www.sog.unc.edu/programs/ncmagistrates/documents/Parker4DVStrangulation1-12-08.pdf

(mods: please delete if too offensive)

Fantastic demo. Death can occur 20 YEARS after act of strangulation? I never even imagined.

passionflower
09-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Did ME say when the whole autopsy report would be given to the public?

Carla Lashelle
09-17-2009, 01:15 PM
Two details I caught from news shows/reports...

The traumatic asphyxiation was described as something that could be done with an arm/choke hold or a pipe... so perhaps a pipe was some sort of weapon used? (why else say that?)

I think it was on JVM last night that someone said clearly her body was cut up and stuffed in the wall... which would explain 1) how even a small person would fit in that duct and 2) the bloody clothes stuffed in the ceiling. I have not seen this detail any where else?

txmama
09-17-2009, 01:19 PM
Two details I caught from news shows/reports...


I think it was on JVM last night that someone said clearly her body was cut up and stuffed in the wall... which would explain 1) how even a small person would fit in that duct and 2) the bloody clothes stuffed in the ceiling. I have not seen this detail any where else?


Respectfully snipped

Thank you. I have been wondering the same thing. The only place I heard about her being cut up and stuffed in the wall was on JVM last night. Is this true?

Kimmer
09-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I think the fact that it has been stated that the autopsy report was sealed because they felt RC would not be able to get a fair trial, tells me that he did more than just strangle her..I think there was some sort of dismemberment..

Carla Lashelle
09-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Well Im glad someone else picked up on the same details from the JVM show.

It makes sense to me... bloody clothes that are the suspects... victim stuffed into some sort of duct in the wall...

I am tall but do not weigh very much (in the 100 lbs range) and i wouldnt fit into a space like that in one piece.

Beyond Belief
09-17-2009, 02:31 PM
i just read she was raped.
The New Haven police said that 24-year-old Annie Le was raped and she was strangulated to death
http://www.samaylive.com/news/raymond-clark-arrested-with-murder-charges/657341.html

Is that true?

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 02:35 PM
i just read she was raped.
The New Haven police said that 24-year-old Annie Le was raped and she was strangulated to death
http://www.samaylive.com/news/raymond-clark-arrested-with-murder-charges/657341.html

Is that true?

Doesn't look like it to me. I Googled the author in the byline and couldn't link him to any reputable source. I believe he's in India.

MLE
09-17-2009, 02:36 PM
I had read that a cop said she hadn't been sexually assaulted before she was killed. But did he rape her post-mortum? After all, he was apparently sick enough to dismember her, according to some.

Beyond Belief
09-17-2009, 02:36 PM
good, thanks

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 02:45 PM
Doesn't look like it to me. I Googled the author in the byline and couldn't link him to any reputable source. I believe he's in India.


seems to be a lot of spamdexing for scraper & fraudware sites since this case broke....I've never seen so many!

Noway
09-17-2009, 03:41 PM
This story is unfathomable. IMO

http://tinyurl.com/ndnxrp

I think this is the video in which the local reporter talks about her body being 'taken apart' ...

violent struggle ensued
killer took apart her body and put in wall space (at 1:40 on video timer)

passionflower
09-17-2009, 03:51 PM
When LE said they found her they first said they found a 'female', but had to ID Annie through ME. Okay, then they say she was clothed...........couldn't she be ID through those from pix? Was a substance like acid in a lab been used to deteriate the clothes color or her face? I wish something straight would come from ME office. So much speculating.......me for 1......

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 03:56 PM
Two details I caught from news shows/reports...

The traumatic asphyxiation was described as something that could be done with an arm/choke hold or a pipe... so perhaps a pipe was some sort of weapon used? (why else say that?)

I think it was on JVM last night that someone said clearly her body was cut up and stuffed in the wall... which would explain 1) how even a small person would fit in that duct and 2) the bloody clothes stuffed in the ceiling. I have not seen this detail any where else?


Hello Miss Carla-la! how are you!??!

Well, it seems it could be very very big chase/duct space. Reports were the blood on the clothes was small, like from the defense wounds to the killer (scratches).

Now, get your Manolos to chat and tell ol' emma where you been and how you been!

:blowkiss:

Noway
09-17-2009, 03:58 PM
I think rather than have family ID her (especially if she was dismembered in any way) they would rely on medical records as official form of ID (wearing clothing like the person who was missing would not be).

All just my opinion.

Carla Lashelle
09-17-2009, 04:34 PM
Well 5 days worth of decomp would make identification more difficult even if she had just been laying there.

Carla Lashelle
09-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Now, get your Manolos to chat and tell ol' emma where you been and how you been!

:blowkiss:

Heyyyyyyyyyyy

Im okayish... been doing a new treatment cycle thats kicking my butt and I had a root canal Monday...

I see Inchy, Faythe, etc on Facebook....

Noway
09-17-2009, 05:02 PM
I guess they haven't confirmed what day she died. So we don't really know whether there was 5 days of decomp.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.09.16 Presser~ 5 pm EST

And unrelated to that, but one of the first articles I found when trying to determine whether it had been stated that she'd been dead for 5 days ... and nobody noticed that this man was dead.

http://imgur.com/gFrHd.png

joypath
09-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Did ME say when the whole autopsy report would be given to the public?

Autopsy reports in Ct are NOT given to the public routinely, this one is sealed at this time. It will be present at the trial.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 05:48 PM
yeah... they call it a simple case of workplace violence but yet all the documents and reports are sealed (the box checked on them saying the reason for the seal is the ongoing sensitive nature of the investigation). Doesn't sound so simple to me.

Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 05:51 PM
yeah... they call it a simple case of workplace violence but yet all the documents and reports are sealed (the box checked on them saying the reason for the seal is the ongoing sensitive nature of the investigation). Doesn't sound so simple to me.

I couldn't agree with you more. Quick question...If you are being sexually harassed at work, could that be considered "workplace violence"? Or would it be "sexually assaulted at work"? I'm trying to find it in my old book...haven't been able to find it.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 05:53 PM
Please forgive me if someone's already posted this question. Anyone know when we might be able to expect them to release the detailed autopsy results?

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 06:04 PM
'Ailina, If they are sealed it might not even be known until the trial.


JG, at my hospital sexual harrassment and workplace violence fall under two different policies. Of course, at times the lines can blur between the two, I would think. Where I work they make us sign two different forms that we know the standards for what the hospital deems each to be (and I cannot remember the specifics LOL).

rdm64
09-17-2009, 06:34 PM
Two details I caught from news shows/reports...

The traumatic asphyxiation was described as something that could be done with an arm/choke hold or a pipe... so perhaps a pipe was some sort of weapon used? (why else say that?)

I think it was on JVM last night that someone said clearly her body was cut up and stuffed in the wall... which would explain 1) how even a small person would fit in that duct and 2) the bloody clothes stuffed in the ceiling. I have not seen this detail any where else?

NO NO NO. If you look back on my posts several days BEFORE the ME report announcement of COD I was saying it was strangulation -- specifically becaus eI know for a fact that her body was not cut up and no blood was near her body discovery site. OK?
Look here
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CT- Annie Le, missing from Yale, thread #5 FOUND DECEASED

It isnt a tiny duct, it is a pipe and conduit run access and you could fit a 300 lb person in those intact.

This is a lab. they have gas lines, water lines, internet cable lines, waste lines, other cable lines etc and there would be big areas behind wasll with access panels.

He would have needed about two minutes total to put the body of a 90 lb 4'11" in a laundry cart, remove a panel and stuff her in.

Emily Booth
09-17-2009, 07:42 PM
I guess they haven't confirmed what day she died. So we don't really know whether there was 5 days of decomp.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.09.16 Presser~ 5 pm EST (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4166707&postcount=45)

And unrelated to that, but one of the first articles I found when trying to determine whether it had been stated that she'd been dead for 5 days ... and nobody noticed that this man was dead.

http://imgur.com/gFrHd.png

According to court documents, RC is being charged w/ murder on or about 09/08/09.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 08:27 PM
I understand the frustration. I have to take a break when the conversation starts to spin backwards because old misinformation crops up again.

scandi
09-17-2009, 11:24 PM
NO NO NO. If you look back on my posts several days BEFORE the ME report announcement of COD I was saying it was strangulation -- specifically becaus eI know for a fact that her body was not cut up and no blood was near her body discovery site. OK?
Look here
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CT- Annie Le, missing from Yale, thread #5 FOUND DECEASED (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4161186&postcount=372)

It isnt a tiny duct, it is a pipe and conduit run access and you could fit a 300 lb person in those intact.

This is a lab. they have gas lines, water lines, internet cable lines, waste lines, other cable lines etc and there would be big areas behind wasll with access panels.

He would have needed about two minutes total to put the body of a 90 lb 4'11" in a laundry cart, remove a panel and stuff her in.

Hi Rdm, There are several things that tell me he didn't just remove a panel and stuff her in, based on what we have read*:

* LE searched all the chases originally. The panels are said to be easily opened even with a butter knife. That means her body was not visible to the searchers and the dogs were skewed by the odors in the lab.

* Her body was difficult to extricate from the chase and by Sunday evening was still trapped there. They had to go up several feet and cut a hole in the chase to get her out.

* Her body was moved to a different place or room from where she was killed.

I think those three facts {if they are the case} go to show she was probably pushed through an opening in the chase from above, pushed thru those plywood panels and dropped onto the conduit and pipes below. And I think it could have been accessed through a dropped ceiling where it meets a wall.

Really I would love to have my theory disproved as it is so haunting to me. IMO

agent_scully
09-18-2009, 12:05 PM
Could he have stepped on her neck - he 190 lbs/she 90 lbs.

He had bloody shoes. Traumatic Asphyxia symptoms include:

Purple-blue face discoloration
Purple-blue neck discoloration
Skin petechiae in upper part of body (broken blood vessels)
Facial swelling
Subconjunctival hemorrhage

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/what-traumatic-asphyxiation-annie-le-murder-cause-death

"Traumatic asphyxiation is distinguished by the brute force needed to severely compress the thorax, it is a violent sounding cause of death that describes a truly violent act. Traumatic asphyxia is generally defined as a form of asphyxia caused by chest or upper abdomen compression and normally does not include direct pressure on the throat.

The thoracic cavity contains the heart and lungs and traumatic asphyxiation involves crushing pressure being directly placed on these organs. For the average person it would take between 2-3 minutes to die from crush asphyxiation, if a person were struggling or fighting back death would most likely come even faster than that."

SeriouslySearching
09-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Actually, I do believe he did just simply remove the panel and stuff her inside. He was panicked, but his card shows he was looking for a place. Being he had been there awhile, it is my opinion he has either had to get into that space or he had seen others working inside of it before. I do not think he hoisted her up and dropped her inside. Makes no sense to me if there was an opening which was easily accessed. While the space measure may be 2 feet in width...if it was housing cables and pipes coming from another floor then it means the measurement went from the floor to the ceiling in height. She would easily fit inside. I think it was the decomp which made it so difficult to get her out without disturbing evidence.

It doesn't surprise me at all they didn't release the autopsy report. There may be things which they could charge later, imo. They are probably doing toxicology tests which take 4-6 weeks and means they do not have all of the results yet.

He could have stepped on her, but since his hands didn't appear to be scratched up (they mentioned his arms and chest)...I would say it indicated he used a weapon to strangle her. This could be another reason they did not want to release the autopsy results. If he used her necklace or another object...she would naturally claw at her own neck and possibly lash out to get his arms and chest. If he was using his hands to strangle her...his hands would be gashed by her fingernails in an effort to free herself to breathe. If he was stepping on her...he wouldn't have those scratches, imo.

Harmony2
09-18-2009, 01:09 PM
EXCELLENT PRESENTATION- 48 minutes long but worth it!!!

I have it running in a different window while I read the threads.

Traumatic asphyxiation

http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=784

(NOTE: Darn- I started having difficulty with the video 15 minutes into it so I hope it works better for you.)

Harmony2
09-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Could he have stepped on her neck - he 190 lbs/she 90 lbs.

He had bloody shoes. Traumatic Asphyxia symptoms include:

Purple-blue face discoloration
Purple-blue neck discoloration
Skin petechiae in upper part of body (broken blood vessels)
Facial swelling
Subconjunctival hemorrhage

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/what-traumatic-asphyxiation-annie-le-murder-cause-death

"Traumatic asphyxiation is distinguished by the brute force needed to severely compress the thorax, it is a violent sounding cause of death that describes a truly violent act. Traumatic asphyxia is generally defined as a form of asphyxia caused by chest or upper abdomen compression and normally does not include direct pressure on the throat.

The thoracic cavity contains the heart and lungs and traumatic asphyxiation involves crushing pressure being directly placed on these organs. For the average person it would take between 2-3 minutes to die from crush asphyxiation, if a person were struggling or fighting back death would most likely come even faster than that."

This article says it was due to neck compression.

NEW HAVEN, Connecticut - Yale graduate student Annie Le died from traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression, the office of the chief state's medical examiner said Wednesday.

http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-anniele-deathcause0916,0,1384620.story

Edited to add another link:
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/breaking/Search-for-Missing-Yale-Student-Leads-to-Waste-Facility-.html

Slain Yale graduate student Annie Le, whose body was found crammed into a duct in the basement of a university lab, died of "traumatic asphyxia due to neck compression," the coroner said Wednesday.

"Traumatic asphyxia due to neck compression" is a form of strangulation, according to a doctor at St. Francis Hospital, but it is not clear whether she was strangled by the killer’s hands or by an object.

I will say I am a bit confused after listening to the whole video and will have to research traumatic asphyxia some more.

passionflower
09-18-2009, 01:26 PM
NO NO NO. If you look back on my posts several days BEFORE the ME report announcement of COD I was saying it was strangulation -- specifically becaus eI know for a fact that her body was not cut up and no blood was near her body discovery site. OK?
Look here
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CT- Annie Le, missing from Yale, thread #5 FOUND DECEASED (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4161186&postcount=372)

It isnt a tiny duct, it is a pipe and conduit run access and you could fit a 300 lb person in those intact.

This is a lab. they have gas lines, water lines, internet cable lines, waste lines, other cable lines etc and there would be big areas behind wasll with access panels.

He would have needed about two minutes total to put the body of a 90 lb 4'11" in a laundry cart, remove a panel and stuff her in.

bold by me..............where you there??? Are you media? LE? student? help us

Carla Lashelle
09-18-2009, 01:33 PM
Hey I am just going by what was said on a mainstream news show... it was said her body was dismantled or cut up... and the area where her body was found is said to be 2 feet square. That was said clearly last night on NG... Is there a link to a written LE statememnt describing how/where she was found in specific detail?

Just strangling someone isnt particularly bloody. Nor are the kind of wounds you get just fighting with someone. The amount of blood supposedly found on the clothes in the ceiling is interesting.

I would assume she died Tuesday (the last day she was seen alive). I can't see her roaming around the building for 5 days to be killed Sunday and found immediately. So I would imagine she was dead 5 days before she was found.

Disclosure laws vary from state to state. FLorida's Sunshine Laws make a lot public... like all the Casey/Caylee Anthony stuff...

I notice in the news today www.foxnews.com it says that he may have had an accomplice...

agent_scully
09-18-2009, 02:22 PM
Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.


This article says it was due to neck compression.


http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-anniele-deathcause0916,0,1384620.story

rdm64
09-18-2009, 03:17 PM
Hi Rdm, There are several things that tell me he didn't just remove a panel and stuff her in, based on what we have read*:

* LE searched all the chases originally. The panels are said to be easily opened even with a butter knife. That means her body was not visible to the searchers and the dogs were skewed by the odors in the lab.

* Her body was difficult to extricate from the chase and by Sunday evening was still trapped there. They had to go up several feet and cut a hole in the chase to get her out.

* Her body was moved to a different place or room from where she was killed.

I think those three facts {if they are the case} go to show she was probably pushed through an opening in the chase from above, pushed thru those plywood panels and dropped onto the conduit and pipes below. And I think it could have been accessed through a dropped ceiling where it meets a wall.

Really I would love to have my theory disproved as it is so haunting to me. IMO

Sorry this is not accurate. you are forgetting that the crime investigators in removing the body were attempting to preserve evidence and dealing with a decomposing (5 day) body which would be bloated.

It would not be from above but simply removing a access panel (the woudl be regular ones of about 2'x3" or larger) and wrestling the body in. The person shoving the body in woudl be doing so before rigor mortis and before bloat, the people removing the body would be dealing with all kinds of after affects of decomposition plus an interest in preserving evidence.

As far as here body being moved, if she was killed in the perps work area he may not have wished to place r her there but in a more out of he way place, and his work area may have had no access panels to the chases.

I think all the access panels were searched before the discovery.

bold by me..............where you there??? Are you media? LE? student? help us

I know one of the score or more reporters who knew the condition of the body from the score of people who dealt with pulling it out and transporting it.

That is why I said from the beginning that the reports the body was cut up were totally false and by all appearance it was strangulation.

Teh simplest sceario is often the case and it appears to be the case here. Perp is mad about something work related or personal. He argues with victim, perhaps at some point strikes or grabs her, and she tells him he is going to be fired. I really doubt he planed to kill her since it is an idiotic crime scene. But he goes past the point of no return and face to face strangles her or choke holds her. He set off an alarm, gets a laundry cart, scouts a place to stuff her body in, does so and leaves.

By the way some of the side talk on traumatic asphyxia involving cars or furniture is off the mark. strangulation results in traumatic asphyxia as does a choke hold. you can asphyxiate in a plastic bag or from carbon monoxide, the "trauma" does not have to involve anything huge, it refers to creating a pathology in the body, say the crushing or closing of a windpipe with ones hands or forearm. Strangulation results in a death by traumatic asphyxia.

rdm64
09-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Just strangling someone isnt particularly bloody. Nor are the kind of wounds you get just fighting with someone. The amount of blood supposedly found on the clothes in the ceiling is interesting. ...

I notice in the news today www.foxnews.com it says that he may have had an accomplice...
Not much blood was found on the clothing. it was his.

the access panel OPENING was 2x3 to 2x2, the open area behind was bigger that you could fit a 150lb person in.

The accomplice leak is more about people who may have helped him after he left. it is common to try and pressure material witnesses who may have had some knowledge after the crime that they should have reported this way. they may simply wish to pressure someone who may have lent him a jacket to leave with or someone may have given a false alibi in the initial investigation interviews, we know several relatives leaved nearby as well as his fiance.

rdm64
09-18-2009, 03:31 PM
Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.
Not except that use of the hands or chokehold is more than sufficient and it is the vast majority of male on female traumatic asphyxia.

"traumatic asphyxia" in murder is almost always strangulation face to face by hand, second would be strangulation by a choke hold. it doesn't rule out an object but a reasonably powerful young man (and his forearms look like he works out a bit) strangling a 90lb 4'11" woman would be easy.

the act of strangulation also can lead to unconsciousness in less then ten seconds because you are not just constricting the airflow but the blood flow to the brain. In some military training you are shown how to do this in a way that will render an opponent unconscious a few seconds.
-ability to shout or cry out: immediately ended.
-consciousness: ended in >10 seconds
- permanent damage to the windpipe that will result in death within minutes without intervention such as tracheotomy: immediate.

Harmony2
09-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.

Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other. I am still trying to construct a sequence of events as information is revealed and as I discover more about traumatic asphyxia. It is very possible an object in the room (like a broom handle for example) was used to asphyxiate her. The video I posted in the first page of this thread enumerated various methods. I am not fixated on the manual strangulation even though media accounts have made it appear like that is what happened.

Kat
09-18-2009, 03:57 PM
Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other. I am still trying to construct a sequence of events as information is revealed and as I discover more about traumatic asphyxia. It is very possible an object in the room (like a broom handle for example) was used to asphyxiate her. The video I posted in the first page of this thread enumerated various methods. I am not fixated on the manual strangulation even though media accounts have made it appear like that is what happened.

I agree Harmony2, at this point all of the theories on how she suffered traumatic asphyxia are applicable. We can't really rule any valid theory out.

Not except that use of the hands or chokehold is more than sufficient and it is the vast majority of male on female traumatic asphyxia.

"traumatic asphyxia" in murder is almost always strangulation face to face by hand, second would be strangulation by a choke hold. it doesn't rule out an object but a reasonably powerful young man (and his forearms look like he works out a bit) strangling a 90lb 4'11" woman would be easy.

the act of strangulation also can lead to unconsciousness in less then ten seconds because you are not just constricting the airflow but the blood flow to the brain. In some military training you are shown how to do this in a way that will render an opponent unconscious a few seconds.
-ability to shout or cry out: immediately ended.
-consciousness: ended in >10 seconds
- permanent damage to the windpipe that will result in death within minutes without intervention such as tracheotomy: immediate.

This is something that really may have happened. Given the description of the cause of death being traumatic asphyxia. In my mind, that tells me that the delicate organs in her neck were probably crushed. JMHO.

Now how those organs got crushed is up to speculation at this point in time.

He could have very well used an object of some type.
Or he could have very well used his hands.

The end result would be a crushing injury that resulted in permanent injury to an organ in her neck and even if he had let up on the object he was using or loosened his grasp on her neck...the result would have been death given the ME's use of words.

Sloof
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other.

Everyone has seen the arrest, courtroom and booking photos/video... yet I don't see any facial injuries on RC. Was that a media fabrication?

Sloof
09-18-2009, 04:06 PM
Also his lower arms showed no scratchmarks, I thought it was interesting that he chose to wear a short sleeve shirt to court.

debirlfan
09-18-2009, 04:20 PM
Trying not to be indelicate here, but I'm not sure there is a nice way to phrase it... Given the rumors that went around regarding dismemberment, and the report that the perp did not cut up the body - and knowing how a body changes as it decays, is there a possibility that the police might have been forced to dismember her in order to get her out of the chase?

Harmony2
09-18-2009, 04:22 PM
Everyone has seen the arrest, courtroom and booking photos/video... yet I don't see any facial injuries on RC. Was that a media fabrication?

Sloof I also had an eagle eye on his body looking for those marks. I simply do not know if it was a media fabrication. I recall reading that when LE asked him to photograph his body, he asked for a lawyer but also do not know if that may have been a fabrication.

t93
09-18-2009, 04:22 PM
From what I understand, they will cut up the area surrounding the body before they will touch the body. Preserving evidence is paramount-even over property remaining intact, debirlfan.

agent_scully
09-18-2009, 04:23 PM
I've also not seen any obvious scratches in all of the recent photos of RC. If they were bad enough to draw blood, would they already be healed up?

Or are we thinking the blood was from AL's head? (as head wounds tend to bleed a bit more profusely)

SeriouslySearching
09-18-2009, 04:35 PM
I don't have the photo, but there was a slideshow on our local news which showed him getting into a vehicle when he was arrested. If you look above the crook of his elbow on the inside of his left arm there appears to be a mark of some sort which could be a gouge with a scratch.

I can't find the slideshow where they had the photo now. Sorry.

PatientOne
09-18-2009, 05:26 PM
I also saw what looked to be a very large bruise on his inner left arm, right above the elbow, when he appeared in court yesterday.

agent_scully
09-18-2009, 05:34 PM
Are you sure you didn't see the blurry image of a tattoo? He has one on each arm left and right. It looks like they circle his arms.

SeriouslySearching
09-18-2009, 05:36 PM
What I saw wasn't a tat. It was slightly darker than his skin and looked like a comma shape.

Kat
09-18-2009, 06:13 PM
He had what I call a mouse in the outside corner of his (right eye I think, trying to remember from which angle I saw it). It was barely visible, and IIRC it can be seen when he was standing before the judge.

joypath
09-18-2009, 08:16 PM
Are you sure you didn't see the blurry image of a tattoo? He has one on each arm left and right. It looks like they circle his arms.

Please consider this: anticubital area with a hematoma from the phlebotomy performed to retrieve his DNA.

joypath
09-18-2009, 08:19 PM
I also saw what looked to be a very large bruise on his inner left arm, right above the elbow, when he appeared in court yesterday.


Please consider this: a hematoma created in the antecubital area from the phlebotomy performed at the crime laboratory.

Chili Fries
09-18-2009, 08:38 PM
I think if his worst injuries were on his neck and back then Annie could have pulled his shirt over his head, which is something that commonly happens in fights

joypath
09-18-2009, 08:41 PM
I've also not seen any obvious scratches in all of the recent photos of RC. If they were bad enough to draw blood, would they already be healed up?

Or are we thinking the blood was from AL's head? (as head wounds tend to bleed a bit more profusely)

Given that the incident of the death occurred 9/8/09 and the arrest occurred 9/17/09 and that most superficial cuts heal within 7-10 days, they are probably healed or well on their way to being healed. The level of healing would be significant enough in that a regular press photograph would not exhibit the pale striations.

Apt statement: head wounds bleed quite profusely as the region is well perfused.

joypath
09-18-2009, 08:44 PM
From what I understand, they will cut up the area surrounding the body before they will touch the body. Preserving evidence is paramount-even over property remaining intact, debirlfan.



Absolutely correct and the evidence techs involved in this case are extremely well trained and more importantly, dedicated and competent!

Emma Peel
09-18-2009, 09:20 PM
Please consider this: a hematoma created in the antecubital area from the phlebotomy performed at the crime laboratory.

Hi joypath!
Can I try a translation? (lol)

"A nice little bruise from his blood draw?"



Hey...do you think they were extra gentle?:innocent:

thx as usual, joypath!

Emma Peel
09-18-2009, 09:33 PM
I keep having this awful thought that if this fight WAS about the mice, he may have used something to do with the mice equipment to choke her. Like put her head in some door of some kind and close it on her neck.

okay that's extra terrible, and I'm sorry, but I thought I'd throw it out there, so you can all say "no way" and then, I can sleep at night.

joypath
09-18-2009, 09:44 PM
Hi joypath!
Can I try a translation? (lol)

"A nice little bruise from his blood draw?"



Hey...do you think they were extra gentle?:innocent:

thx as usual, joypath!



LOL thought I'd be "formal" tonight! Insider info:NO WAY were they delicate, gentile and comforting.....infact, the opportunity to claim "oops the vein rolled, missed and the ever popular, "the vein collapsed" were DEFINITELY considered but....professionalism kicked in!

joypath
09-18-2009, 09:57 PM
I keep having this awful thought that if this fight WAS about the mice, he may have used something to do with the mice equipment to choke her. Like put her head in some door of some kind and close it on her neck.

okay that's extra terrible, and I'm sorry, but I thought I'd throw it out there, so you can all say "no way" and then, I can sleep at night.


Sleep tonight: mice cage NOT involved

ArkansasMom
09-18-2009, 10:15 PM
Here's a link to a photo that may help those of you discussing the appearance of his inner arms.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/media/2009/09/17/clark-arraignment/

missyjane77
09-18-2009, 10:29 PM
Is there anything reliable out there saying she was dismembered?

Shlock Homes
09-18-2009, 10:30 PM
Will the autopsy also include toxicology tests? In case she was given a sedative before killed? They didn't mention any defensive wounds or bruising on the body, did they?

'Ailina
09-18-2009, 10:33 PM
Is there anything reliable out there saying she was dismembered?

I haven't seen anything reliable or verified.

'Ailina
09-18-2009, 10:33 PM
Will the autopsy also include toxicology tests? In case she was given a sedative before killed? They didn't mention any defensive wounds or bruising on the body, did they?

I think toxicology is routinely included. Don't know if it will be in the report, but I'm betting it will be. We may not hear the evidence until it's presented in court, from what I understand.

joypath
09-18-2009, 11:16 PM
I think toxicology is routinely included. Don't know if it will be in the report, but I'm betting it will be. We may not hear the evidence until it's presented in court, from what I understand.


I can absolutely confirm that toxicology was ordered within the scope of the post

joypath
09-18-2009, 11:24 PM
Will the autopsy also include toxicology tests? In case she was given a sedative before killed? They didn't mention any defensive wounds or bruising on the body, did they?


Toxicology is performed on all homicide death (and many many others ) seen at the CT ME's office. Screening for barbiturates and benzodiazepines are part of the routine testing (urine) and quantatiative levels are determined from other body fluids.

The gross anatomy evaluation has NOT been released at this time, will definitely be released during the trial BUT CT is NOT the same as other States (ie Fla) where documents are released to the general public.

'Ailina
09-18-2009, 11:26 PM
Toxicology is performed on all homicide death (and many many others ) seen at the CT ME's office. Screening for barbiturates and benzodiazepines are part of the routine testing (urine) and quantatiative levels are determined from other body fluids.

The gross anatomy evaluation has NOT been released at this time, will definitely be released during the trial BUT CT is NOT the same as other States (ie Fla) where documents are released to the general public.

So if we won't have access to the documents, will we still have access to the information, via court proceedings?

Further, aside from the autopsy information presented in court, is there a possibility there will be some autopsy information not presented in court, so we may never know the full contents of the autopsy?

joypath
09-18-2009, 11:40 PM
So if we won't have access to the documents, will we still have access to the information, via court proceedings?

Further, aside from the autopsy information presented in court, is there a possibility there will be some autopsy information not presented in court, so we may never know the full contents of the autopsy?


More than likely some of the information will be "leaked" (but not by me!) and some of the information will be available during the court case, UNLESS sealed by the court! or redacted, again by the court.

Anser to the second part: possibly.....for example, the actual weight of the organs.

JL50ish
09-19-2009, 12:38 AM
Trying not to be indelicate here, but I'm not sure there is a nice way to phrase it... Given the rumors that went around regarding dismemberment, and the report that the perp did not cut up the body - and knowing how a body changes as it decays, is there a possibility that the police might have been forced to dismember her in order to get her out of the chase?



NO WAY...they would have cut open the wall in order to get her out. No way would they destroy her body and and possibly any evidence that would lead them to her killer. It's very easy to cut open a wall, much easier than cutting open a car - which is done everyday to get dead people out.

Jersey*Girl
09-19-2009, 12:54 AM
Joypath, I just wanted to say thank you for joining Websleuths. Your insight seems very keen. Thanks for the discussion regarding scratches and dismemberment. I saw on the news, as well as online, that Raymond had scratches on his chest. Then it was reported in the media that he had scratches on chest, arm, and back. Then puffster informed one of his/her sources said Annie was cut up pretty bad. The the media mentioned dismemberment. I've been going with she was cut so bad she could have looked dismembered. Now it's back to square one with just scratches on his chest. That's what the chief said, so that's what I'm going with...until it's confirmed. I have to say, though, everything puffster has posted from his/her sources has ended up being correct. That gives me reason to pause. I hurried to logon and acknowledge you. Your information is much needed. Thanks so very much.

Can't keep my eyes open any longer. Sweet dreams everyone.

Jersey


Agent Scully, Sloof, RDM64 - welcome to all of you, too. With the exception of the horrible circumstance, the interacting dialogue is incredibly interesting. Very nice to get so many different perspectives from varios avenues related to this mystery, and be able to put it all together as a group. Thanks!

rdm64
09-19-2009, 06:25 AM
Will the autopsy also include toxicology tests? In case she was given a sedative before killed? They didn't mention any defensive wounds or bruising on the body, did they?

he had defensive wounds. She was struck.

I think the odds are she was punched in the face and strangled (hence the blood on the accused's shoes)
Trying not to be indelicate here, but I'm not sure there is a nice way to phrase it... Given the rumors that went around regarding dismemberment, and the report that the perp did not cut up the body - and knowing how a body changes as it decays, is there a possibility that the police might have been forced to dismember her in order to get her out of the chase?

No, they got her out intact. they opened the wall to make that easy and to look for and protect other evidence besides the body itself (things belonging to the perp)

annmarie62
09-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Does anyone know if Annie was sexually assualted in any way by this creep?

joypath
09-20-2009, 08:39 PM
Does anyone know if Annie was sexually assualted in any way by this creep?


Per standard protocol, a sexual assault kit evaluation was processed....results are NOT released, keep watch IF the Oct. 6 day in court results in significant changes in the charges.

Noway
09-21-2009, 01:42 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI

I just saw this, and while it's not quite autopsy results, it is something that would be noted in the autopsy. Let me know if there is a better place to discuss.

caroline
09-21-2009, 05:14 PM
I am a fan of Nancy Grace on facebook, and she said that she will be talking about this on her show tonight.

eyes4crime
09-21-2009, 05:44 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH8HrtI

I just saw this, and while it's not quite autopsy results, it is something that would be noted in the autopsy. Let me know if there is a better place to discuss.

Thank you Noway - I can't believe what I just read. Bones broken to fit Annie in the small space!!!! How sick!!! No doubt that this guy is as barbaric as a caveman and as sick as they come. YIKES!!!

'Ailina
09-21-2009, 07:30 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/slain_grad_bones_broken_m4kbebcsjtrh2lufh8hrti

i just saw this, and while it's not quite autopsy results, it is something that would be noted in the autopsy. Let me know if there is a better place to discuss.

o......m.......g......

Skigirl
09-21-2009, 07:55 PM
The New Haven police chief made a statement today saying that (specifically) the New York Post article about AL's body being mangled is incorrect. He says that he's correcting the misinformation at the request of the State's Attorney.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-investigation-over-chief-says-0921,0,2304773.story

Shlock Homes
09-21-2009, 10:22 PM
I have a feeling it is correct. They said they're trying to stop leaks, so maybe they're trying to use reverse psychology with this one.

Let's assume he did crush her, how could he have done it? It's not possible with one's bare hands. Maybe something mechanical.

panthera
09-21-2009, 10:29 PM
Thank you Noway - I can't believe what I just read. Bones broken to fit Annie in the small space!!!! How sick!!! No doubt that this guy is as barbaric as a caveman and as sick as they come. YIKES!!!
On Nancy Grace's show tonight, LE is saying that report is not true!!

Paulette
09-21-2009, 11:06 PM
On Nancy Grace's show tonight, LE is saying that report is not true!!

I challenge LE to prove it!

joypath
09-21-2009, 11:23 PM
I challenge LE to prove it!


Whereas I challenge the news organization to prove their commentary and site the statements in scientific terms or present the gross anatomy diagram, I will add that after 5 days of decomposition, the body to the casual observer would appear quite traumatized and difficult to observe, especially as one considers the effects of gravity on the body.

Noway
09-21-2009, 11:34 PM
Personally, if the story is wrong, I'm very glad.

joypath
09-21-2009, 11:50 PM
I have a feeling it is correct. They said they're trying to stop leaks, so maybe they're trying to use reverse psychology with this one.

Let's assume he did crush her, how could he have done it? It's not possible with one's bare hands. Maybe something mechanical.


Unfortunately, it is possible to fracture human bones with bare hands and definitely dislocate bones when the victim is deceased. IF one were to do this damage, think chest compression to snap ribs, strong, hard downward pulling to disjoint the arm sockets, backward pressure to snap a wrist and the opposite twisting to snap an ankle, violent twisting to dislocate a patella, a backward hard pressure to disarticulate a cervical juncture.....and then of course the heavy duty boots to make even more body modifications.

Easier to use something mechanical and heavy: perhaps a feed cart?

Now that I've added the possible manner of disarticulation and fracture, remember that IF these actions were perpretrated, the body has absolutely NO muscle tone, rigor had not yet set in, and the body would be similiar to a "rag doll" to manipulate. Remember also that irregular bone breakages can protrude thru the skin causing even more leakage than the typical purge of death.

Sola.N
09-22-2009, 12:40 AM
I think it's just the Post's usual MO of sensationalism. I'd definitely believe something the Chief said, particularly when he quotes the state's attorney as having made the request, over the Post.

eyes4crime
09-22-2009, 01:08 AM
Unfortunately, it is possible to fracture human bones with bare hands and definitely dislocate bones when the victim is deceased. IF one were to do this damage, think chest compression to snap ribs, strong, hard downward pulling to disjoint the arm sockets, backward pressure to snap a wrist and the opposite twisting to snap an ankle, violent twisting to dislocate a patella, a backward hard pressure to disarticulate a cervical juncture.....and then of course the heavy duty boots to make even more body modifications.

Easier to use something mechanical and heavy: perhaps a feed cart?

Now that I've added the possible manner of disarticulation and fracture, remember that IF these actions were perpretrated, the body has absolutely NO muscle tone, rigor had not yet set in, and the body would be similiar to a "rag doll" to manipulate. Remember also that irregular bone breakages can protrude thru the skin causing even more leakage than the typical purge of death.

The description you give is so very vivid! My problem is that I can see animal Clark doing those very acts of violence. I don't care for the psychopath, I think he's capable of the worst. If I remember correctly, most all the leaks thus far have been acknowledged as accurate.

ThoughtFox
09-22-2009, 09:42 AM
I think if his worst injuries were on his neck and back then Annie could have pulled his shirt over his head, which is something that commonly happens in fights

Hmm, I truly doubt she was tall enough or strong enough to do that. She was very small in build, and he looks stocky and strong. But yes, she could have scratched him under his shirt if they struggled.

I think the reason we don't see any cuts on him is simple - the wounds had healed by the time he was arrested.

PatientOne
09-22-2009, 06:18 PM
Unfortunately, it is possible to fracture human bones with bare hands and definitely dislocate bones when the victim is deceased. IF one were to do this damage, think chest compression to snap ribs, strong, hard downward pulling to disjoint the arm sockets, backward pressure to snap a wrist and the opposite twisting to snap an ankle, violent twisting to dislocate a patella, a backward hard pressure to disarticulate a cervical juncture.....and then of course the heavy duty boots to make even more body modifications.

Easier to use something mechanical and heavy: perhaps a feed cart?

Now that I've added the possible manner of disarticulation and fracture, remember that IF these actions were perpretrated, the body has absolutely NO muscle tone, rigor had not yet set in, and the body would be similiar to a "rag doll" to manipulate. Remember also that irregular bone breakages can protrude thru the skin causing even more leakage than the typical purge of death.

We own real estate and I can picture just the type of space where Annie's body was found. The dimensions of spaces like this can vary widely. Our plumbers have installed many access doors to them that are indeed about the size of a computer monitor. And the depth behind them can often be less than a foot. They're usually no bigger than they need to be -- landlords want as much usable square footage as possible. It makes me wonder if the NY Post article isn't more accurate than LE claims in their denial.

static
09-22-2009, 06:29 PM
Hmm, I truly doubt she was tall enough or strong enough to do that. She was very small in build, and he looks stocky and strong. But yes, she could have scratched him under his shirt if they struggled.

I think the reason we don't see any cuts on him is simple - the wounds had healed by the time he was arrested.

What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.

debirlfan
09-22-2009, 06:51 PM
What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.

He's much taller, meaning his arms are considerably longer - so even if he just had her at arm's length, she couldn't have reached his face. However, my guess is that either he had her in a choke hold from the back, or had her down on the floor perhaps straddling her (not reading anything sexual into that, just saying it would have been a natural position to apply pressure to her neck). In either case, again, she probably couldn't have reached his face - and if he was wearing long sleeves or long gloves, they might have protected his arms. If his shirt wasn't tucked in, his chest/stomach might have been the only place she could sink her nails into him.

Shlock Homes
09-22-2009, 07:59 PM
If he raged and killed her, I don't see a choke hold being the method of violence. Two people face to face who are arguing, the most likely thing that would have happened would have been a punch to the face. Unless she had some fight training and could block most of it, she would have been out like a light. Same thing if she was hit in the head from behind.

Choke hold over a disagreement with some mouse cages? It doesn't seem realistic to me. Unless the guy was on some serious drugs or alcohol, and had been physically violent with other people in the lab in the past, there's no way he could have done this the way they say it happened. Even just the yelling and arguing alone would have aroused suspicions from people nearby. And nobody has said they heard anything, not a peep.

I think Annie Le was quietly killed and probably lured to her doom. And there were probably others involved to help conceal the crime, and plant the evidence (if Clark wasn't involved).

Paulette
09-22-2009, 11:40 PM
U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.

Skigirl
09-23-2009, 07:07 AM
U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.

Do you have a confirmed report about the dimensions of the "chase"? I've never seen anything official about its size. In other Yale buildings, I've seen quite large panels screwed to the wall, and never gave it much thought. Definitely taller than 2 feet -- more like four or five, but don't know the inside dimensions. The New York Post has said it was small, but they could be misinformed.

I think at this point we really just don't know -- unless you can point us to something credible?

Paulette
09-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Reply to Skigirl, post #105

This is from the Evidence thread, post 151, a bit of NG show that was transcribed:

From Nancy Grace 09/21/09
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../21/ng.01.html

"Dr. G. Feigin, out of New Jersey. Dr. Feigin, how would you put a woman`s body in a spot that`s reportedly two by two if you don`t mangle and break the bones?

FEIGIN: You can`t put a square peg into a round hole. And you have to make it fit. Usually, the shoulders are the widest part of the body, and it has to be manipulated either by fracturing or squeezing, one way or another, to get into a small opening.

I've read it was as small as 18 inches. The point being, the dimensions of the hidey-hole are probably within the range of 18 inches to 24 inches. If everyone is reporting that range, I see no reason to assume it was much larger. And remember there were pipes obstructing the space.

Noway
09-23-2009, 10:49 AM
When I was researching the Who's Who, I found an articled that reported that the chase was 5x5 feet. This surprised me since any discussion I'd been involved in up until then had been quoting a 2x2 foot size.

Although that article is not quoted in the list of people, I had it in my notes IIRC and will find it again. I did see it mentioned in the Timeline, but no source:

September 13th (5p)- Body found in 5 X 5 chase in wall that houses utility cables running between floors.

I don't know whether the original size is 5 x 5 and with the pipes and cables, the area becomes 2 x 2.


ETA Here is the article and quote. I was waiting to read more about the size of the chase before putting this entry in because I didn't know if the size of the chase was proven to be 2 x 2..

A construction worker who said he worked at 10 Amistad said chases in the building typically are about 5-feet-by-5-feet. He was working Monday on a private job across the street from where Le lived on Lawrence Street in the city’s East Rock neighborhood.

If the body was discovered in a chase, he said, whoever put it there likely was familiar with the layout of the facility.

“You have to have that knowledge of the building,” the man said. He only would identify himself as Carlos V.

“I think that it suggests it was someone who could get into that space,” he told the newspaper. “It certainly would be extremely difficult for someone from outside of Yale to get into that space. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.”

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2...5175622155.txt (http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/14/news/doc4aae5d57ae145175622155.txt)

Noway
09-23-2009, 11:11 AM
It's been my experience, especially in this case, that media reports are subject to change within minutes, so I'm not sure whether this source is credible as far as the size of the chase Annie was actually in. I'm sure he is correct about the size of the typical chase in that building but that doesn't mean there weren't others of different sizes.

I'd rather see a quote from a LE-type.

sniperacer
09-23-2009, 11:26 AM
I've read about "body fitting" in the Jasmine and Ms Le cases, yet have not commented (until now).

If you've ever watched a magic show (secrets revealed, or otherwise) you would see how small of a spot an in shape female body can fit into!

There is a reason magician assistants are female and in shape.

Sorry if I spoiled the magic for any magic fans.

PatientOne
09-23-2009, 12:00 PM
Do you have a confirmed report about the dimensions of the "chase"? I've never seen anything official about its size. In other Yale buildings, I've seen quite large panels screwed to the wall, and never gave it much thought. Definitely taller than 2 feet -- more like four or five, but don't know the inside dimensions. The New York Post has said it was small, but they could be misinformed.

I think at this point we really just don't know -- unless you can point us to something credible?

I'm only guessing here but I think it was said the chase where Annie's body was found was near a bathroom. That makes me think it was a plumbing chase. Plumbing chases generally only need to allow access to on/off valves on water lines and cleanouts on waste lines, etc. Water lines are narrow copper tubing and waste lines are either cast iron or PVC that are much wider in diameter, but still only maybe 4-5". There may also be ventilation ductwork in a chase like this. These types of chases may only serve a smaller area of a building near a bathroom or set of bathrooms, a kitchen, etc.

The types of access panels that may be quite long or generally larger that Skigirl referred to may be for access to chases containing electrical lines, maybe telephone lines, etc. These types of chases may cover service to a larger area of a building than a plumbing chase.

songline
09-23-2009, 01:21 PM
U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.
You are twice the size of this girl.
I would assume that makes a difference.

gxm
09-23-2009, 01:37 PM
I think we need to keep in mind that RC was dealing with a dead body, one that would not help fit or contort itself into a space with plumbing and/or electrical boxes.

Shlock Homes
09-23-2009, 07:43 PM
I think we need to keep in mind that RC was dealing with a dead body, one that would not help fit or contort itself into a space with plumbing and/or electrical boxes.

Do they know exactly which opening she was placed in? Was she high up and out of the way? Like someone suggested before, maybe she was dropped into place from a floor above?

Shlock Homes
09-23-2009, 07:46 PM
What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.

I have to re-read your message, and think about it, and yeah, the scratches on his back would not be possible if she was in a choke hold from behind. No way. Even with his shirt off, her instinct would be to reach up and go for the face, maybe the eyes. Those scratches could have come from amorous relations with his girlfriend (I'm not trying to be facetious, but giving an alternative explanation). The true test of whether she did scratch him or not will be the DNA evidence from under her nails (if there is any).

JL50ish
09-23-2009, 09:39 PM
If he was sitting on top of her while strangling her, he could keep his face out of reach of her hands...not to mention, when being strangled, the first instinct is to try to remove whatever is choking you (their hands or some tool). Sure, she'd try to "attack" him back, but her arms would be much shorter than his, making it more difficult for her to reach his face especially if he was moving/turning his face during the murder.

Don't forget, she would lose consciousness after not too long. Also, we don't know at what point she inflicted the scratches on him...it may have been during the initial conflict before it turned to intention to kill.

If only we knew the chain of events...verbal altercation? then some physical? attempted rape? then murder? what???

debirlfan
09-23-2009, 09:43 PM
Regarding the scratches on him - might he have gotten some of those while attempting to dispose of her body? For example, on the edge of the opening he was forcing her into?

PatientOne
09-24-2009, 10:47 AM
Regarding the scratches on him - might he have gotten some of those while attempting to dispose of her body? For example, on the edge of the opening he was forcing her into?

I've suspected this very same thing too, in relation to the abrasions on his arms. The metal edges of access panel openings could account for those types of wounds. Since the chase was deconstructed in some way so as not to destroy evidence when Annie's body was removed, investigators have probably thoroughly examined the area. I don't see how RC could plausibly explain away any of his DNA on the edge of the opening.

Shlock Homes
09-24-2009, 09:22 PM
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.

Emily Booth
09-24-2009, 09:39 PM
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.

Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.

debirlfan
09-24-2009, 11:25 PM
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.

Depends on exactly where this chase was and how he got access to it - there's been a lot of speculation, but I don't think there's been a definite answer. I know one suggestion is that he might moved a ceiling tile, climbed up into the ceiling, and dropped/pushed her body over the top of a wall. If that were the case, I could easily picture his shirt riding up, and him scraping his back and/or chest on the metal frame of the drop ceiling, or on the wires that support it. Leaning over into such an area would also explain how he might have dropped his pen if it was in his shirt pocket.

PatientOne
09-25-2009, 12:01 AM
Depends on exactly where this chase was and how he got access to it - there's been a lot of speculation, but I don't think there's been a definite answer. I know one suggestion is that he might moved a ceiling tile, climbed up into the ceiling, and dropped/pushed her body over the top of a wall. If that were the case, I could easily picture his shirt riding up, and him scraping his back and/or chest on the metal frame of the drop ceiling, or on the wires that support it. Leaning over into such an area would also explain how he might have dropped his pen if it was in his shirt pocket.

In a fairly new building like the Amistad facility, chase construction would've preceded installation of the lay-in ceiling grid. This means that the grid is installed around the contours of walls. So, probability of the scenario of RC climbing through lay-in ceiling tiles and hoisting Annie's body up and over into the chase is unlikely. Besides, all of that weight would've caused the grid and thus the ceiling to collapse.

joypath
09-25-2009, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by Shlock Homes http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.


Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.



About the dogs:

http://www.fox61.com/hc-annie-le-autopsy-yale-student-murdered-cause-of,0,5093883.story


Delay in discovery of the body: first dogs brought into the case were SEARCH dogs, those who search scent. The second set of dogs were CADAVER dogs, those seeking out cadaverene, putrescine as the first chemicals released during decomposition. The environmental factors of the temporary "grave" (humidity, temperature, etc.) effect the development, timing and concentration but rest assured, the good ole blow-fly and the "I'm here in 72 hours" maggot arrive basically ignoring the environment!

Emily Booth
09-25-2009, 08:16 AM
Thank you for providing the source re: the dogs, Joypath!

Search dogs and cadaver dogs were used to find Annie Le's body.

Search dogs did not find Annie Le's body because of the odor of the many animals in the animal lab that made it difficult for the search dogs to locate her body. LE had to use cadaver dogs before they could locate her body. It was not due to the location of the chase being out of the way.

If it was due to the location of the chase, I would've liked to have seen that source shared here since it would be add'l info re: the evidence.

Noway
09-25-2009, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Shlock Homes http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4203242#post4203242)
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.


About the dogs:

http://www.fox61.com/hc-annie-le-autopsy-yale-student-murdered-cause-of,0,5093883.story


Delay in discovery of the body: first dogs brought into the case were SEARCH dogs, those who search scent. The second set of dogs were CADAVER dogs, those seeking out cadaverene, putrescine as the first chemicals released during decomposition. The environmental factors of the temporary "grave" (humidity, temperature, etc.) effect the development, timing and concentration but rest assured, the good ole blow-fly and the "I'm here in 72 hours" maggot arrive basically ignoring the environment!


I clicked on the link you provided and found that nothing was mentioned about search dogs looking for live human scent:

Investigators had attempted to bring a cadaver dog into the building earlier in the week, but because of the large number of animals in the laboratory, the dogs were unable to do a thorough search. Le, from Placerville, Calif., was to have been married Sunday at the North Ritz Club in Syosset, N.Y., to Jonathan Widawsky, a graduate student at Columbia University in New York. Police have said that he is not a suspect and is helping with the investigation.

...

It wasn't until five days after her disappearance that members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully-clothed body. She was wearing the same clothes as seen in a video of her entering the building last Tuesday morning, a source said.


ETA: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/crimesider/entry5300869.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

This link does talk about search dogs on September 10, but may not distinguish between search and cadaver dogs, since some do both.

debirlfan
09-25-2009, 05:53 PM
In a fairly new building like the Amistad facility, chase construction would've preceded installation of the lay-in ceiling grid. This means that the grid is installed around the contours of walls. So, probability of the scenario of RC climbing through lay-in ceiling tiles and hoisting Annie's body up and over into the chase is unlikely. Besides, all of that weight would've caused the grid and thus the ceiling to collapse.

I'm not sure about that - have seen it done both ways. Think about it - a drop ceiling would conceal wiring/sprinkler pipes/ventilation ducts etc., and it would be logical to have unobstructed access to the chases where pipes and the like run vertically.

As to him climbing on the grid holding the ceiling, I wasn't suggesting that. If he planned to dump her body over the top of the wall, I would assume he would climb onto a counter or table at the side of the side of the room, and remove the ceiling tile closest to the wall, lift her though the opening, and over the top of the wall.

joypath
09-25-2009, 09:33 PM
I clicked on the link you provided and found that nothing was mentioned about search dogs looking for live human scent:

Investigators had attempted to bring a cadaver dog into the building earlier in the week, but because of the large number of animals in the laboratory, the dogs were unable to do a thorough search. Le, from Placerville, Calif., was to have been married Sunday at the North Ritz Club in Syosset, N.Y., to Jonathan Widawsky, a graduate student at Columbia University in New York. Police have said that he is not a suspect and is helping with the investigation.

...

It wasn't until five days after her disappearance that members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully-clothed body. She was wearing the same clothes as seen in a video of her entering the building last Tuesday morning, a source said.


ETA: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/crimesider/entry5300869.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

This link does talk about search dogs on September 10, but may not distinguish between search and cadaver dogs, since some do both.

Not sure what your point is BUT SEARCH dogs were the first on the scene, the bloodhounds of the CT Troopers, as Ms Le was considered a missing person. The CADAVER dogs were introduced to the scene later in the week, the search was not completed successfully for reasons stated. The cadaver dogs were re-introduced to the site and given the passage of time, the putrescine and cadaverine were present in higher concentrations. Cadaver dogs seek out the chemicals of decomposition, some of the over 30 decomp. chemicals are shared within the animal kingdom but these dogs are trained to react to the scents of human decomposition, search dogs in this case are not cadaver dogs.

The cadaver dogs DEFINITELY demonstrated a "hit" behavior.

Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:08 PM
Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.

I will need to look into that one. Maybe I read it from a person posting here and not from an article. I was under the impression that they had already opened up and searched the chases in the lab area earlier in the week, but couldn't see her because of the way she was placed. I am aware that the cadaver dog was used to find her body on Sunday. If they didn't search the chase previously, I don't understand why.

Edit:

I found the message. It was in the Lab and Building thread posted by Scandi:

"We read that LE had 100 officers that searched that bldg thoroughly. The article mentioned they searched all the chases. I interpreted that to mean all the ones they could open up {with a butter knife ;} and look into. They found nothing in those first searches except the clothing in the dropped ceiling tiles."

I couldn't find an article that mentioned chase specifically, but I did find this:

http://www.courant.com/community/new-haven/h-missing-yale-student-body-found-annie-le-suspect,0,6680148.story

"More than 100 local, state and federal police had been searching the building for days, using blueprints to uncover any place where evidence or Le's body could be hidden."

Was there another article that specifically mentioned the chases were searched? Or can we just assume they thoroughly searched the lab and chases first before fanning out into the rest of the building?

PatientOne
09-25-2009, 11:48 PM
I'm not sure about that - have seen it done both ways. Think about it - a drop ceiling would conceal wiring/sprinkler pipes/ventilation ducts etc., and it would be logical to have unobstructed access to the chases where pipes and the like run vertically.

As to him climbing on the grid holding the ceiling, I wasn't suggesting that. If he planned to dump her body over the top of the wall, I would assume he would climb onto a counter or table at the side of the side of the room, and remove the ceiling tile closest to the wall, lift her though the opening, and over the top of the wall.

If the chase in question is a type that doesn't require an access panel, it's probable Annie's body was placed there in the scenario described. How else would he get her in there otherwise?

But if this was a plumbing chase (I read it was near a bathroom), there's a greater possibility that it has an access panel, especially in a recently-constructed building like Amistad, so that plumbers or maintenance people could quickly and conveniently shut off water supply, which is often a necessary first step in plumbing repairs. Having to guess where a shut-off valve is located, much less needing to climb up into the ceiling to reach it, would be very poor design. Overflowing water is a property manager's nightmare and it can quickly cause widespread damage.

If the chase in question is an electrical or telecommunications chase, RC would risk causing related and important problems that contractors would be called upon to troubleshoot and resolve with dispatch, thus allowing for quicker discovery of the body. But maybe RC was stupid and lucky enough to have avoided such an outcome if that's the case.

The articles I read describing the removal of Annie's body from the chase said it was deconstructed so as not to destroy evidence, which I interpreted as inferring there could've been another way to remove her body (i.e. an access panel). But maybe I'm wrong!!! Maybe it was a chase without an access panel and LE didn't want to have to hoist her body up and over again to remove her from it.

Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:52 PM
I can't remember which discussion thread it was mentioned in, but the alarm at 12:40pm or so on Sept 8th was possibly set off automatically, and not manually. Is it possible the placing of the body in that plumbing chase could have tripped the alarm by accident? It hasn't been said where the alarm was sourced, only that it was in the basement.

Emily Booth
09-26-2009, 12:35 AM
It was an automatic steam alarm.

Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 12:38 AM
It was an automatic steam alarm.

Could it have tripped if someone had tampered with anything inside the chase?

Emily Booth
09-26-2009, 12:48 AM
Correction: it was a fire alarm triggered by steam from a laboratory hood. The location of the alarm was never given as far as I know.

PatientOne
09-26-2009, 11:33 PM
Could it have tripped if someone had tampered with anything inside the chase?

We should probably be discussing this in The Alarm thread. Nevertheless, I'll give it a shot here. It's my experience that fire alarms function via dedicated telephone lines. By dedicated, I mean telephone lines used solely for the purpose of fire alarms. Security contractors who monitor fire alarm systems can distinguish between sensors being activated by actual smoke, heat, steam, etc., and power failures in a system. When there's a power failure, security contractors call a designated person first, usually a building operations manager, owner, etc., to alert them of the power failure in the system. If they fail to contact anyone ASAP, then fire departments are dispatched as a precaution.

If reports are correct, a sensor actually detected excessive steam and triggered the alarm. So I doubt RC accidently yanked or severed anything in the chase and caused a power failure in the system.

Noway
09-27-2009, 01:23 PM
Joypath, I was just pointing out that the link you provided only discussed cadaver dogs, not search dogs. And yes, I realized they were looking for a live Annie at first but was not sure whether the dogs they had were trained to look for both (some are). From what I've read since then, it seems they were "live scent only" dogs.

In response to Emily Booth's post:

Originally Posted by Emily Booth http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4203312#post4203312)
Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.

Asked in response to:
Originally Posted by Shlock Homes http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4203242#post4203242)
Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.
The biggest break in the case came from a German shepherd named Max handled by State Trooper Nick Leary, according to a law enforcement official.

Max, who is trained in body recognition, was first sent to search through mounds of garbage that had been sent out for incineration from the lab. On Sunday he was taken to the basement of the lab building, where he picked up Ms. Le’s scent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/nyregion/19yale.html?_r=1

panthera
09-27-2009, 01:33 PM
In a fairly new building like the Amistad facility, chase construction would've preceded installation of the lay-in ceiling grid. This means that the grid is installed around the contours of walls. So, probability of the scenario of RC climbing through lay-in ceiling tiles and hoisting Annie's body up and over into the chase is unlikely. Besides, all of that weight would've caused the grid and thus the ceiling to collapse.
(bolding mine)

Exactly my thoughts also. MOO

Noway
09-27-2009, 09:24 PM
A "foul odor" led investigators to her body, the source said.
The space where Le was found -- 8 inches deep and covered by a metal panel "the size of a computer screen" -- houses a vertical and a horizontal water pipe.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/yale_grad_bones_broken_to_fit_in_m4kbEBcSjtrH2luFH 8HrtI


Considering the source is the NYPost, we should keep this handy. Never know when you're going to need a grain of salt (or two).
http://i44.tinypic.com/invdc0.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=invdc0&s=5&hid=2&tag=salt+shaker

Emily Booth
09-27-2009, 09:25 PM
That was an excellent find, Noway! (My quoted post was a response to a statement made by someone else, not you -- just so you know!)

Noway
09-27-2009, 09:32 PM
...after news emerged that police have a “serious” suspect (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/serious_suspect.php) in the case. Police found the remains of Annie Le (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/post_480.php), a 24 year-old pharmacology PhD. student, inside a mechanical chase at a Yale medical building Sunday, the day she was supposed to get married.

http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/these_were_two.php

Noway
09-27-2009, 09:33 PM
That was an excellent find, Noway! (My quoted post was a response to a statement made by someone else, not you -- just so you know!)

Yes, I was copy post challenged today and didn't capture both posts. ETA: Made a lame attempt to get that point across now, and both posts are in there. :)


btw, The posts about the chase were not in response to anyone.

Shlock Homes
09-28-2009, 09:57 PM
A "foul odor" led investigators to her body, the source said.
The space where Le was found -- 8 inches deep and covered by a metal panel "the size of a computer screen" -- houses a vertical and a horizontal water pipe.

So it wasn't the work of the cadaver dog, but a sensitive nose of one of the investigators?

The FBI were photographed searching some dumpster around the school in hazmat costumes a couple of days or so after Annie disappeared. Why did they search there and not look for areas in the lab where a body could be hidden, since she wasn't spotted leaving the lab on camera? If that's the only way in and out, wouldn't it be safe to say that she was still in there?

joypath
09-28-2009, 10:41 PM
So it wasn't the work of the cadaver dog, but a sensitive nose of one of the investigators?

The FBI were photographed searching some dumpster around the school in hazmat costumes a couple of days or so after Annie disappeared. Why did they search there and not look for areas in the lab where a body could be hidden, since she wasn't spotted leaving the lab on camera? If that's the only way in and out, wouldn't it be safe to say that she was still in there?
Given the time passage from probable point of death: 9/8 to date of primary discovery 9/13, the smell of decomposition would be increasing to the point of possible human recognition in addition to that of cadaver dog recognition of putrescine and cadaverine but credit for the discovery does go to the cadaver dog. Once the chase was opened, the essence of decomp was very noticable!
The dumpster and Hartford dump site (where the facility waste was depositied) was part of the standard search protocol, a traditional manner of body disposal is to "dump" it into the trash and while they were searching for a body, they were also searching for other pieces of evidence (clothing, towels,body parts, saturated toweling). There was a working theory that her body had been moved from the research laboratory, that transport had been made via the covered laboratory cart.

Remember that the working theory on 9/8....late pm was a missing person and it remained that until the security card swipes were reviewed and the videos were checked and it was confirmed that she had not left the building. Also remember that the jurisdition of this case was with the Yale PD, the ancellary LE were acting as "consultants" and backup.

The building search was somewhat hindered by the sensitivity of the on-going experiments and animal scent interactions (yep, dead mice produce decomp chemicals too).

Was this a perfectly conducted investigation, hardly but the essence of the case and the resolution of the evidentiary materials appear to be intact.