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awakewriter
09-17-2009, 09:46 AM
I always think of the parents. Parents of the victim, parents of the accused. It's just absolutely heartbreaking for all of them, I'm sure.

justthinkin
09-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Changing my theory here.

I could be wrong, but this is looking more and more like RC had an obsession for Annie Le. She was most likely cordial to him as an employee of the lab, and he took it to be more than that or hoped it would be more than that. I could see him foisting himself on her. Her rejecting him, and him then deciding to strangle her. Maybe he even built those biceps up for her. I'm sure we'll find out all about it in the weeks to come.

At first I took him to be just mentally unstable, but with what I've been reading from people who knew him and a relative, it's looking to be more sinister. Stories about him from fellow classmates differ. Some thought he was a good guy, other's weren't even shocked when they heard the news. RC's own cousin said he had anger management problems as a child.

One poster from RC's high school said it's erroneous that he was in the Asian Awareness Club. Said RC just showed up & got in the group picture the day they were taking photos.

People say he was an athlete, but he was only a member of each sport's team for one year. A coach didn't even remember the guy as being an athlete. I hate to be making references to a media source's commentaries, but that's where I got the info, and I don't even remember which one.

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 09:57 AM
The Daily news quotes Chief Lewis saying NO sexual assault...that was not said at the newser, was it? Not being widely reported, wonder if DN got it right.

SuziQ
09-17-2009, 10:00 AM
The Daily news quotes Chief Lewis saying NO sexual assault...that was not said at the newser, was it? Not being widely reported, wonder if DN got it right.

I didn't hear that either. He may have replied a simple no the a reporters question which I couldn't hear most of.

t93
09-17-2009, 10:07 AM
I remember the report saying her friends remembered the click of her heels all of the time, and then another report about R.C. being obsessed with shoe covers. I am wondering if lab workers often wore heels or if this was an exception, and if that was one reason why she got more hate from him? Heels accidentally messing up "his area"? A lot of people find heels frivolous or sexualized, but some short women find life works better in heels because then they can reach things they otherwise couldn't. (I'm 5' 11"-shorter women tell me these things frequently, and how they envy my height, as I get the jar of peanut butter from the top shelf for them at the store. I'd rather be short,lol. I think it's prettier.) Just a thought on why her and not some other student.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 10:09 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati..._annie_le.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/09/17/2009-09-17_lab_tech_raymond_clark_under_arrest_in_the_murd er_of_yale_student_annie_le.html)

(snip)
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence," but would not elaborate on what might have triggered the attack. I don't like LE's use of that term, "workplace violence"... yeah it was violent... and yeah it was in the workplace... but it was murder plain and simple. Perhaps they said it in that way to stress the fact that there was no romantic relationship and it was not a sexual crime?

Still... workplace violence is putting too pretty of a bow on it for me!

KR2tonenow
09-17-2009, 10:15 AM
From Comcast News today:

>snip "It is important to note that this is not about urban crime, university crime, domestic crime but an issue of workplace violence, which is becoming a growing concern around the country," Lewis said.>snip

Broad at best. Control issues take over and he loses it over work. Hmmmm.

Waddles
09-17-2009, 10:36 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

he texted her to discuss the cleanliness of the cages

maggieo
09-17-2009, 10:36 AM
From Comcast News today:

>snip "It is important to note that this is not about urban crime, university crime, domestic crime but an issue of workplace violence, which is becoming a growing concern around the country," Lewis said.>snip

Broad at best. Control issues take over and he loses it over work. Hmmmm.

Hmmm indeed. Why is LE so eager to pigeonhole it, before all the facts have come out?

I guess it's good to quash "affair gone bad" rumors for the sake of the victim's family, but I think it's a stretch to say it's not a "university crime."

Avery
09-17-2009, 10:40 AM
Think about it though, it takes so much more energy to hate someone than to like them. Hate is something that grows and grows. For RC, his desire to hurt her or put her in her place was something that he probably even had fantasies about- what he would do to her if he could. We are going to see anger situations come up in this guys past. I think the thing that gets me is the way that he killed her. To put his hands around her neck would be so intimate. Suggesting to me complete rage in that moment.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 11:01 AM
Suffice to say, I think we all kind of missed our mark here even though some can't let go of a sexual motive.

In hindsight, I think we have a guy who was miserable in his own life. He worked around people with very bright futures while he cleaned up their messes. He probably could be hard to deal with at times and ultimately realized he was more of a janitor than a Technician.

Annie was probably more concerned about her experiments than following some of the rules of clean up. RC probably deemed it as an insult that she was not considerate of Lab rules or his rules. He deemed it personal and a blow up ensued. He probably had issues with her for a while and it got personal to him. Ultimately he snapped.

Sloof
09-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Hmmm indeed. Why is LE so eager to pigeonhole it, before all the facts have come out?

...maybe because LE has collected massive amounts of evidence and interviewed dozens of people about the crime , very little facts of which have been leaked to the press?

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm trying not to cross-post here, but I posted this in the "Raymond Clark" thread, too: "Roid Rage" is a real possibility. If he's taking steroids, that would explain the difference in his demeanor now and what acquaintances knew of him before.

Will they do any kinds of tests to see whether or not he's taking steroids?

Chili Fries
09-17-2009, 11:06 AM
I don't like LE's use of that term, "workplace violence"... yeah it was violent... and yeah it was in the workplace... but it was murder plain and simple. Perhaps they said it in that way to stress the fact that there was no romantic relationship and it was not a sexual crime?

Still... workplace violence is putting too pretty of a bow on it for me!

I kind of disagree with you, nurse. A quick Google search shows numerous instances of murder by a co-worker this year. I think it's very important to stress that something like this can happen at work and that people should be vigilant against unstable co-workers. Maybe there were signs that Clark could erupt in violence, if not murder, but even if there weren't I think emphasizing it as an incident of workplace violence is important.

Sloof
09-17-2009, 11:06 AM
To put his hands around her neck would be so intimate. Suggesting to me complete rage in that moment.

Has it been released that he strangled her? No.

COD is traumatic asphyxiation. The murderer could have used anything to asphyxiate her, e.g., the laundry cart that had the blood splatter on it.

nephers
09-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Suffice to say, I think we all kind of missed our mark here even though some can't let go of a sexual motive.

In hindsight, I think we have a guy who was miserable in his own life. He worked around people with very bright futures while he cleaned up their messes. He probably could be hard to deal with at times and ultimately realized he was more of a janitor than a Technician.

Annie was probably more concerned about her experiments than following some of the rules of clean up. RC probably deemed it as an insult that she was not considerate of Lab rules or his rules. He deemed it personal and a blow up ensued. He probably had issues with her for a while and it got personal to him. Ultimately he snapped.

I agree with you 100%. I think it was a case of him not liking Le. This could be because of envy, or simply because he didn't like the way she treated the animals. Whatever the reason, I think he had been boiling for a while. He asked her to come to the lab to discuss things and things got out of hand. I'm thinking he probably said something that made her mad, she slapped him (or something along those lines) and he snapped. He then went into "cover-up" mode.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm trying not to cross-post here, but I posted this in the "Raymond Clark" thread, too: "Roid Rage" is a real possibility. If he's taking steroids, that would explain the difference in his demeanor now and what acquaintances knew of him before.

Will they do any kinds of tests to see whether or not he's taking steroids?

The only reason that I would say this is probably not the case is because it seems he had prior problems with her.

t93
09-17-2009, 11:11 AM
I am really liking the theory of him calling her out on protocols and her arguing with the protocol book in hand, proving she was right and he was wrong. That really makes the most sense to me. She was a smart spunky girl. Her absolute belief that she was right and he was wrong making him snap makes the most sense given the few facts we are actually getting confirmed by police.

Chili Fries
09-17-2009, 11:13 AM
I'm trying not to cross-post here, but I posted this in the "Raymond Clark" thread, too: "Roid Rage" is a real possibility. If he's taking steroids, that would explain the difference in his demeanor now and what acquaintances knew of him before.

Will they do any kinds of tests to see whether or not he's taking steroids?

The reason I don't think he was using steroids is because usually if a guy is going to use them just to look good...it's going to be very noticeable. That's why he is using them, to stand out physically. Obviously Clark could have just started using them but from what I've seen I think it's probably not roid rage.

There's also no indication that Clark was still involved in sports, which is an arena you could use steroids for a reason other than making yourself look big and muscular.

jess_j
09-17-2009, 11:18 AM
has it been released that it was him questioning protocol? yes, he texted her about the cleanliness of the cage. cleaning the cages was his job. maybe she was the one who was concerned with how he was doing his job. maybe her questioning him made him snapped.

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 11:18 AM
Workplace violence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Definition
The definition of work related violence that has received pan-European acceptance is as follows:
“incidents where people are abused, threatened or assaulted in circumstances relating to their work, involving an explicit or implicit challenge to their safety, well-being or health”.
This can involve violence resulting from industrial disputes, although this is not a major factor in most incidents.
This definition establishes violence as a behaviour with the potential to cause harm. Broadly speaking there are three forms:
• Non-physical violence (intimidation, abuse, threats etc)
• Physical violence (punching, kicking, pushing etc)
• Aggravated physical violence (use of weapons, e.g. guns, knives, syringes, pieces of furniture, bottles, glasses, etc)
Violence in all its forms is a concern for staff and management alike. For employers, violence can lead to poor morale and a poor image for the organisation, making it difficult to recruit and keep staff. It can also mean extra costs, such as those associated with absenteeism, higher insurance premiums and legal fees, fines and compensation payments where negligence is proven.
For employees, violence can cause pain, distress and even disability or death. Physical attacks are obviously dangerous but serious or persistent verbal abuse or threats can also damage employees’ health through anxiety or stress. Peter Vajda identifies workplace gossip as a form of workplace violence, noting that it is "essentially a form of attack."
[edit] Why do people actually resort to violence?
Violence is an example of what is termed ‘functional’ behaviour. That which can be used by an individual to get what they want, or to provide them with some tangible benefit. They may want faster or better service, they may desire attention or alternatively to be left alone or scare people off. They may wish to acquire cash, drugs or other goods that don’t belong to them. They may crave the excitement or notoriety, or it may be the only way they can express themselves or influence others.
[edit] Types of Workplace Violence
By understanding the cause of the violence we will be better able to eliminate, reduce or manage the risk of it occurring. There are four main types of work related violence:
[edit] Criminal violence
Violence perpetrated by individuals who have no relationship with the organisation or victim. Normally their aim is to access cash, stock, drugs, or perform some other criminal or unlawful act.
[edit] Service user violence
Violence perpetrated by individuals who are recipients of a service provided in the workplace or by the victim. This often arises through frustration with service delivery or some other by-product of the organisations core business activities.
[edit] Worker–on-worker violence
Violence perpetrated by individuals working within the organisation; colleagues, supervisors, managers etc. This is often linked to protests against enforced redundancies, grudges against specific members of staff, or in response to disciplinary action that the individual perceives as being unjust.
[edit] Domestic violence
Violence perpetrated by individuals, outside of the organisation, but who have a relationship with an employee e.g. partner, spouses or acquaintances. This is often perpetrated within the work setting, simply because the offender knows where a given individual is during the course of a working day.
[edit] Workplace Violence and Aggression
Buss (1961) identified eight types of aggression:
• Verbal-passive-indirect (failure to deny false rumors about target, failure to provide information needed by target)
• Verbal-passive-direct ("silent treatment", failure to return communication, i.e. phone calls, e-mails)
• Verbal-active-indirect (spreading false rumors, belittling ideas or work)
• Verbal-active-direct (insulting, acting condescendingly, yelling)
• Physical-passive-indirect (causing others to create a delay for the target)
• Physical-passive-direct (reducing target's ability to contribute, i.e. scheduling them to present at the end of the day where less people will be attending)
• Physical-active-indirect (theft, destruction of property, unnecessary consumption of resources needed by the target)
• Physical-active-direct (physical attack, nonverbal, vulgar gestures directed at the target)
In a study performed by Baron and Neuman (1996), researchers found pay cuts and pay freezes, use of part time employees, change in management, increased diversity, computer monitoring of employee performance, reengineering, and budget cuts were all significantly linked to increased workplace aggression. The study also showed a substantial amount of evidence linking unpleasant physical conditions (high temperature, poor lighting) and high negative affect, which facilitates workplace aggression. Workplace Violence and Workplace Aggression: Evidence and Their Relative Frequency and Potential Causes., http://web.ebscohost.com.libdatabase.newpaltz.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=3&hid=109&sid=ce1e3544-f00b-4952-92e9-a990531bbeee%40sessionmgr102, retrieved February 24, 2009.

My guess still, they were in affair, she tried to stop it
Police become very tight lipped when asked about this

Possibly the domestic type:waitasec:

I hope justice is served on this for Annie, no matter what their relationship was, it was horrible

Waddles
09-17-2009, 11:21 AM
has it been released that it was him questioning protocol? yes, he texted her about the cleanliness of the cage. cleaning the cages was his job. maybe she was the one who was concerned with how he was doing his job. maybe her questioning him made him snapped.

true...

Stephens
09-17-2009, 11:23 AM
Annie was probably more concerned about her experiments than following some of the rules of clean up. RC probably deemed it as an insult that she was not considerate of Lab rules or his rules. He deemed it personal and a blow up ensued. He probably had issues with her for a while and it got personal to him. Ultimately he snapped.

I think he had issues with everyone. He was known as incredibly anal. He just took all his rage out on her because she was so little and wouldn't be able to defend herself against him. Think: animal abusers.

These losers think, in that moment, how oh so powerful they are. They also see themselves as "victims."

ChasingMoxie
09-17-2009, 11:25 AM
To clarify (from http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970):

"The chief would not confirm whether Le had been sexually assaulted."

This to me is not saying that he did not sexually assault her. And with his history of a potential sexual assault I don't think it can be ruled out until we have more information.

Avery
09-17-2009, 11:25 AM
Has it been released that he strangled her? No.

COD is traumatic asphyxiation. The murderer could have used anything to asphyxiate her, e.g., the laundry cart that had the blood splatter on it.

Point taken, non the less she was suffocated and to me however he achieved this with her suggest uncontrollable rage and a violent encounter. She put up a good fight I'm sure and regardless if he used his bare hands, he no doubt watched her slip away, IMO.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 11:26 AM
I agree with you 100%. I think it was a case of him not liking Le. This could be because of envy, or simply because he didn't like the way she treated the animals. Whatever the reason, I think he had been boiling for a while. He asked her to come to the lab to discuss things and things got out of hand. I'm thinking he probably said something that made her mad, she slapped him (or something along those lines) and he snapped. He then went into "cover-up" mode.


Yeah. The defensive wounds also don't seem to indicate that he was very prepared if he had planned on killing her that day.

Stephens
09-17-2009, 11:26 AM
I am really liking the theory of him calling her out on protocols and her arguing with the protocol book in hand, proving she was right and he was wrong. That really makes the most sense to me. She was a smart spunky girl. Her absolute belief that she was right and he was wrong making him snap makes the most sense given the few facts we are actually getting confirmed by police.


Yeah, that's a good theory. He seems hyper-sensitive about feeling "humiliated" and that could do the trick. Poor Annie was probably just sticking up for herself against this bullying jerk and he went apesh**.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 11:27 AM
The reason I don't think he was using steroids is because usually if a guy is going to use them just to look good...it's going to be very noticeable. That's why he is using them, to stand out physically. Obviously Clark could have just started using them but from what I've seen I think it's probably not roid rage.

There's also no indication that Clark was still involved in sports, which is an arena you could use steroids for a reason other than making yourself look big and muscular.

Personally, I think he looks like a bit of a couch potato.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 11:29 AM
I think he had issues with everyone. He was known as incredibly anal. He just took all his rage out on her because she was so little and wouldn't be able to defend herself against him. Think: animal abusers.

These losers think, in that moment, how oh so powerful they are. They also see themselves as "victims."

I don't doubt he was anal. But we don't see reports of him texting other students and we would have by now. She was the main one he had a problem with. She didn't pay enough attention to his rules.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 11:31 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

he texted her to discuss the cleanliness of the cages

A guy who leaves his dogs caged all day--not happily, according to a former housemate--the dogs barked and cried all day--kills Annie over cleaning mouse cages? He really has mental problems....

jess_j
09-17-2009, 11:32 AM
Yeah, that's a good theory. He seems hyper-sensitive about feeling "humiliated" and that could do the trick. Poor Annie was probably just sticking up for herself against this bullying jerk and he went apesh**.


i think it would be more humiliating to have someone question me about how i was doing my job. not me questioning them and having the show me the protcols.
i keep thinking she was the one with the issue and that made him mad.

marlap
09-17-2009, 11:37 AM
i think it would be more humiliating to have someone question me about how i was doing my job. not me questioning them and having the show me the protcols.
i keep thinking she was the one with the issue and that made him mad.

That makes a lot of sense. When you think about it, why would he be mad if the cages were dirty when it was his job to clean them.

It makes sense that she would call him on not doing a good job and that's why he would lose it.

msfittz
09-17-2009, 11:39 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

he texted her to discuss the cleanliness of the cages

I've been thinking maybe SHE had called HIM out about the cleanliness of the cages.

Maybe it wasn't the first time, and next steps might be disciplinary actions against him. He's prompted to e-mail her to discuss the issue, the situation escalates and he freaks out and strangles her.

ETA - Jinx! Guess I wasn't fast enough.

jess_j
09-17-2009, 11:41 AM
I've been thinking maybe SHE had called HIM out about the cleanliness of the cages.

Maybe it wasn't the first time, and next steps might be disciplinary actions against him. He's prompted to e-mail her to discuss the issue, the situation escalates and he freaks out and strangles her.


this is exactly what i just posted. i've thought the same thing since i heard about the text.

i could see RC thinking "who does she think she is!" he is been doing his job longer than she has been at yale.

Chanler
09-17-2009, 11:42 AM
Yeah, that's a good theory. He seems hyper-sensitive about feeling "humiliated" and that could do the trick. Poor Annie was probably just sticking up for herself against this bullying jerk and he went apesh**.

Hi, Stephens, to me, it's the worst of conjunctions: A control freak underling; a wedding-stressed grad student who's probably clock watching; a recurring situation. Knowing that she's leaving soon, he approaches her to air the cleaning problem. She's finally had it with his impertinence and says she doesn't have time to listen. He gets in her face; push comes to shove comes to homicide.

[And I think that his unusual Asian interest heightened the tension and his responses.]

maggieo
09-17-2009, 11:43 AM
Suffice to say, I think we all kind of missed our mark here even though some can't let go of a sexual motive.

Sure, but it's understandable -- I read a LOT about crime and I can't think of any other intances of a young man killing a young woman out of sheer work-related rage. Obviously it can happen, but the sex motive is SO much more usual.

HeyJoe
09-17-2009, 11:43 AM
He will probably claim it was an accident, if he even takes responsibility at all

Now that would be a big laugh to see him come up with that one. You don't "accidentally" strangle someone to death.

It would surprise me, but if this truly was a case of simple workplace violence, it is very unlikely that it started off as a strangling. But we also don't know for sure the method of strangulation yet.

Arguments can escalate quickly and it could be a scenario something like: him admonishing her about something, she finally getting tired of it and putting him in his place, him snapping and pushing or cornering her, she threatening his job "I'm reporting you," trying to leave and getting attacked, her yelling for help and/or fighting him off and him trying to shut her up in a fit of total and desperate rage.

There's just no way this was premeditated. He HAD to know about the security cameras and that the card swipes were recorded. This was a heat of the moment argument gone completely out of control, followed by a desperate attempt to conceal the crime.

It will be very interesting to see what motive the DA comes up with. They definitely have opportunity, but motive is still unclear.. at least to the public. If they can't come up with any evidence of a relationship (whether it existed or not), they will use what will stick. They don't want this guy back out on the streets.

The details will come out as the case heads for trial. Interesting case, and very tragic all around.

Chanler
09-17-2009, 11:43 AM
I've been thinking maybe SHE had called HIM out about the cleanliness of the cages.

Maybe it wasn't the first time, and next steps might be disciplinary actions against him. He's prompted to e-mail her to discuss the issue, the situation escalates and he freaks out and strangles her.

ETA - Jinx! Guess I wasn't fast enough.

That makes sense: He would have been responsible for cleaning, not her.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 11:44 AM
I've been thinking maybe SHE had called HIM out about the cleanliness of the cages.

Maybe it wasn't the first time, and next steps might be disciplinary actions against him. He's prompted to e-mail her to discuss the issue, the situation escalates and he freaks out and strangles her.

ETA - Jinx! Guess I wasn't fast enough.

Maybe his not keeping the cages clean or according to protocols was a passive/agressive act against Annie because he was angry at her success?

passionflower
09-17-2009, 11:45 AM
A guy who leaves his dogs caged all day--not happily, according to a former housemate--the dogs barked and cried all day--kills Annie over cleaning mouse cages? He really has mental problems....

and wasn't it HIS JOB TO KEEP CAGES CLEAN????
IMO, RC is trying to blame Annie for why he had to kill her........
Come on, he could of reported her also........
nope I am not buying his story at all!
SHE didn't like how he was doing HIS JOB! JMOO

passionflower
09-17-2009, 11:48 AM
An after thought, Annie's work was very important to her, her last day. She probably gave orders for what she needed done for her mice while she was gone and he hated 'orders'..........IMO

Gene
09-17-2009, 11:50 AM
A guy who leaves his dogs caged all day--not happily, according to a former housemate--the dogs barked and cried all day--kills Annie over cleaning mouse cages? He really has mental problems....


Wait..what am I missing? Why would he send her this text? It is his responsiblity to clean the cages....if I am not misunderstanding this, the journalist must be mistaken.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 11:50 AM
and wasn't it HIS JOB TO KEEP CAGES CLEAN????
IMO, RC is trying to blame Annie for why he had to kill her........
Come on, he could of reported her also........
nope I am not buying his story at all!
SHE didn't like how he was doing HIS JOB! JMOO

This makes more sense to me than the reverse (him calling her out). I bet she was totally friendly and diplomatic about it ,not realizing RC's screwed up perception and mentality--then he went berserk.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 11:51 AM
Wait..what am I missing? Why would he send her this text? It is his responsiblity to clean the cages....if I am not misunderstanding this, the journalist must be mistaken.

I don't think you missed anything, Gene. It may have been faulty reporting...
BTW, hope you didn't think I was saying he expected her to clean the cages, I meant that the argument was about cleaning the mouse cages.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 11:52 AM
[/B]This makes more sense to me than the reverse (him calling her out). I bet she was totally friendly and diplomatic about it ,not realizing RC's screwed up perception and mentality--then he went berserk.

Didn't someone (was it Labrat?) point out, Clark's job was to clean the cages; researchers like Annie are responsible for making sure their mice don't overpopulate or something like that? Can't remember what thread it was in. Seems like that's what was meant by "dirty."

postdoc
09-17-2009, 11:55 AM
Glad to see the case is progressing - hopefully everything has been done by the book and the DNA evidence is solid>

"Workplace Violence" is rather alarming given that it ended in murder. I am sure Annie Le was not the first attractive, petite grauduate student that he helped maintain a mouse colony.

Were there other students who angered him also? Was this the culmination of months of pent-up frustration directed at these students that were around his age, but were clearly "going somewhere" in their careers and lives? Was Annie Le just unlucky - wrong place, wrong time? Did her small stature make her a target? So many questions....

Some people have speculated that the binders/books that she was carrying to the animal facility were related to her TA job. I wonder whether somewhere in there were animal protocols that she was going to use in her defense against RC's accusations? Maybe having Annie Le "lecture" him was the straw that broke the camel's back - "how dare you lecture me..."

So sad, so pointless....

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 11:56 AM
Here it is:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4168787&postcount=23 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4168787&postcount=23)


The thing that puzzles me- and granted I am not up to speed on all the news, is that I saw he told her to come over because mice were "dirty". If the cages were dirty, there would be no reason to call her- it was his job to clean them. If the mice were dirty because of overcrowding, well, that would be her job to do.

postdoc
09-17-2009, 12:00 PM
Didn't someone (was it Labrat?) point out, Clark's job was to clean the cages; researchers like Annie are responsible for making sure their mice don't overpopulate or something like that? Can't remember what thread it was in. Seems like that's what was meant by "dirty."

Yep, one of the jobs of the animal tech is to monitor cage crowding. Usually the investigator is on top of that, but sometimes people lose track of things and the animal tech will call to alert you that the situation requires attention. Same is true of animals dying etc.

It is not a glamorous job, but it is an important job. It is not uncommon for graduate students to have enormous mouse colonies - and having animal techs is really essential.

It would be akin to having chefs responsible to cleaning dishes etc. Nothing would get cooked...

:)

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:01 PM
You guys are getting off track.

This isn't about cleaning mouse cages, it is about protocols. She didn't have the problem with him, he had it with her. Thus his complaints made about her. It was about something that was her responsibility.

Harmony2
09-17-2009, 12:02 PM
Now that would be a big laugh to see him come up with that one. You don't "accidentally" strangle someone to death.

It would surprise me, but if this truly was a case of simple workplace violence, it is very unlikely that it started off as a strangling. But we also don't know for sure the method of strangulation yet.

Arguments can escalate quickly and it could be a scenario something like: him admonishing her about something, she finally getting tired of it and putting him in his place, him snapping and pushing or cornering her, she threatening his job "I'm reporting you," trying to leave and getting attacked, her yelling for help and/or fighting him off and him trying to shut her up in a fit of total and desperate rage.

There's just no way this was premeditated. He HAD to know about the security cameras and that the card swipes were recorded. This was a heat of the moment argument gone completely out of control, followed by a desperate attempt to conceal the crime.

It will be very interesting to see what motive the DA comes up with. They definitely have opportunity, but motive is still unclear.. at least to the public. If they can't come up with any evidence of a relationship (whether it existed or not), they will use what will stick. They don't want this guy back out on the streets.

The details will come out as the case heads for trial. Interesting case, and very tragic all around.


Welcome to WS!! Your posts add a whole different perspective to the mix and I am thoroughly enjoying reading your insight. I look forward to hearing more from you..

Avery
09-17-2009, 12:02 PM
I'm confused too I guess now. Wasn't it also reported that they had an e-mail exchange regarding the cleaning or mice protocol. That's why my theory was this guy thought his job gave him more authority than it actually did. I think the boundries of his job verses hers in this crazy guys mind were messed up. The research is what was important. He thought he was some sort of mice whisperer or something.

JerzWhim
09-17-2009, 12:03 PM
I believe he had an obsession with Annie.

Back in the early 90s, I worked with a married woman who (unbeknownst to the rest of the office) was attracted to a single guy in the office. At a work party, the guy casually started talking about this new woman he was dating. The married woman got visibly upset and left the party. I had to go with her since she was my ride home. For nearly an hour we drove to my house, her racing and slamming the brakes, shifting lanes. All that time, I heard this crazy rant from this married woman of "how dare he meet someone else", "what was he thinking". I wanted to say, "but you're married." and "where is this coming from" but I was so disturbed by this uncharacteristic behavior that I kept my mouth shut. I also did not want to get kicked out of the car miles from any phone booth. In this light, I see Raymond killing Annie. All this attachment buillt up in his head, and he just had to head her off at the pass (aka her impending marriage).

My married coworker later confessed embarassedly to me that she barely knew this guy, that it was only a working relationship, but that she had this fantasy about him so worked up in her mind that it became almost real. The fantasy was based on the fact that the single guy had been single for years and was never known to date. You never know just what facts about you that a stalker might latch onto.

HeyJoe
09-17-2009, 12:09 PM
I don't like LE's use of that term, "workplace violence"... yeah it was violent... and yeah it was in the workplace... but it was murder plain and simple. Perhaps they said it in that way to stress the fact that there was no romantic relationship and it was not a sexual crime?

Still... workplace violence is putting too pretty of a bow on it for me!

Everybody knows that a murder was committed. What LE and the prosecuting attorneys have to prove for the case to be successfully prosecuted is motive and opportunity.

"Murder" is the crime, "workplace violence" is apparently the motive they are currently working on.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 12:10 PM
You guys are getting off track.

This isn't about cleaning mouse cages, it is about protocols. She didn't have the problem with him, he had it with her. Thus his complaints made about her. It was about something that was her responsibility.

The protocols include cleaning mouse cages. We aren't sure if he complained about her--it makes more sense that it was the opposite. Her complaining about him. But we aren't sure. There's been a lot of faulty info floating around.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:10 PM
I'm confused too I guess now. Wasn't it also reported that they had an e-mail exchange regarding the cleaning or mice protocol. I thought it mentioned Annie replied back to him in kind of a blow off way. That's why my theory was this guy thought his job gave him more authority than it actually did. I think the bounderies of his job verses hers in this crazy guys mind were messed up. The research is what was important. He thought he was some sort of mice whisperer or something.

The email exchange is different than the texting. The emails could have been days, weeks before the incident occured. I think he texted her the day of the attack to come see him.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:12 PM
The protocols include cleaning mouse cages. We aren't sure if he complained about her--it makes more sense that it was the opposite. Her complaining about him. But we aren't sure. There's been a lot of faulty info floating around.

We are sure he complained about her. Go read it. I am aware of faulty information but not once has it been said that she had an issue with him. Cleaning cages was his job and not part of her protocols.

Avery
09-17-2009, 12:12 PM
The email exchange is different than the texting. The emails could have been days, weeks before the incident occured. I think he texted her the day of the attack to come see him.

Right, but I was just giving some history to the theory that he was going after her about this and not the other way around. We have reported e mail that shows RC contacting Annie about the protocol issue. Then after the text, it was more clear to conclude that he wanted to meet her about the same thing, IMO.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:14 PM
Right, but I was just giving some history to the theory that he was going after her about this and not the other way around.

Right, we agree.

passionflower
09-17-2009, 12:14 PM
AMYSMOM........can't find the video you put out and said see the last name of girl that
defended RC........I saw it and now it is gone!
Fill me in on that, I missed something......is that last name mentioned here somehow with the crime? TIA

MomofBoys
09-17-2009, 12:16 PM
Yeah, I don't think people are clinging on to anything when they bring up a sexual/romantic motive to these murders.

I believe he may have been angry about some criticism or perceived slight re: the lab, but I honestly don't believe Annie would be dead if this guy didn't have some kind of fixation on her. I think it'll come out that the motive was very complex. Maybe Ray felt down about his life, uncertain about his marriage, paranoid about his job, and saw Annie as someone who had everything he wanted--not to mention she was attractive and due to get married to another guy who was probably someone he wanted to be.

Whether he wanted to have her or wanted to BE her, I think he was jealous and obsessed. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of sexual assault, but as we know that's more about control than sex.

I just think there's a lot more at play here than a lab tech going postal, for lack of a better term. Why would Annie be the only target? Why wouldn't he have come in, guns blazing? Why such a physical crime?

The only other scenario I can think of is that she was threatening to go to his boss. Maybe she had given him warnings. But remember the article citing the email where HE confronted her and she responded in a concilliatory way. Why the about face?

f_stills
09-17-2009, 12:19 PM
I'm confused too I guess now. Wasn't it also reported that they had an e-mail exchange regarding the cleaning or mice protocol. I thought it mentioned Annie replied back to him in kind of a blow off way.

From http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0RNhxA FPe

In the e-mails, Clark is said to criticize Le for not adhering to the protocols for tending the mice kept in the basement as part of her lab's ongoing experiments.

Le is said to have responded in a conciliatory tone, promising to keep to the protocols. Investigators wonder if Clark was not satisfied, if resentment suddenly flared to rage, if as crazy as it may seem this was a case of mice and murder.

jess_j
09-17-2009, 12:20 PM
We are sure he complained about her. Go read it. I am aware of faulty information but not once has it been said that she had an issue with him. Cleaning cages was his job and not part of her protocols.

no, we are not sure. yes, there are reports from the media, but look at how wrong they have been about things. this morning during the presser the police chief even laughed when asked about what the media has been wrong about.

we won't be sure until the arrest warrant is made public or when rc goes to trial.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I don't think people are clinging on to anything when they bring up a sexual/romantic motive to these murders.

I believe he may have been angry about some criticism or perceived slight re: the lab, but I honestly don't believe Annie would be dead if this guy didn't have some kind of fixation on her. I think it'll come out that the motive was very complex. Maybe Ray felt down about his life, uncertain about his marriage, paranoid about his job, and saw Annie as someone who had everything he wanted--not to mention she was attractive and due to get married to another guy who was probably someone he wanted to be.

Whether he wanted to have her or wanted to BE her, I think he was jealous and obsessed. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of sexual assault, but as we know that's more about control than sex.

I just think there's a lot more at play here than a lab tech going postal, for lack of a better term. Why would Annie be the only target? Why wouldn't he have come in, guns blazing? Why such a physical crime?

The only other scenario I can think of is that she was threatening to go to his boss. Maybe she had given him warnings. But remember the article citing the email where HE confronted her and she responded in a concilliatory way. Why the about face?

This was my original theory. But, not one person has cited anything romantic that knew of either party. Her beauty certainly could be an issue. Especially with him having the mindset that "she thinks she is better than I am" mentality. The problem is that LE has said no sexual assault occurred.

Avery
09-17-2009, 12:23 PM
From http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0RNhxA FPe

Sorry, I was confused on how she replied back, but my point was there was an exchange about this issue prior to her being killed.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:23 PM
no, we are not sure. yes, there are reports from the media, but look at how wrong they have been about things. this morning during the presser the police chief even laughed when asked about what the media has been wrong about.

we won't be sure until the arrest warrant is made public or when rc goes to trial.

Read the above post from F stills from yours. Don't you think that is a little specific? That would be a hard thing for an irresponsible journalist to make up.

Avery
09-17-2009, 12:28 PM
I think the issue is going off the rail. I don't think this is about who's job was to clean the cage. Clearly it was his job. We are talking about PROTOCOL. Like, maybe Annie had to put the mice back in a certain place. Something like how the mice are handled prior to or after they are finished with the research aspect they are using them for during lab time.

Labrat, could u give us an idea of what some type of protocols would be that would make Annie and RC interact?

Labrat
09-17-2009, 12:44 PM
Where I work, that is called an animal technician. I'm fully aware of the job and yes, even our animal care people have my number. If we have a sick or dead animal, I'm the primary contact and I have to know ASAP. If there is a problem with transport, they call the lab first and my cell second. I deal with people in this position daily. I know what they do and how they do it.


Exactly! But ours are called husbandry techs. Missy, were you are, If you were messing up in the room- overcrowding, leaving dirty cages on the floor etc, after the animal tech had spoken to you about it once or twice, wouldn't they turn it over to their supervisor to handle? That's how it is here and I'm wondering if that varies by institution.
I think maybe he was using these complaints to have contact with her, since if he is an animal tech, he would have been correct to speak to hear, but then he should have informed his supervisor for follow up. I can't imagine why he would be the one to take her to task continually like that.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 12:44 PM
We are sure he complained about her. Go read it. I am aware of faulty information but not once has it been said that she had an issue with him. Cleaning cages was his job and not part of her protocols.

The article does say that he had an issue with her. This could be faulty information.

P.S. Roy23, not trying to dissent with what you are saying...I guess I am trying not to believe everything I read in the media anymore, but at some point, I guess we have to believe some things we read! Most likely, this reporter had it right...thanks

Roy23
09-17-2009, 12:51 PM
Exactly! But ours are called husbandry techs. Missy, were you are, If you were messing up in the room- overcrowding, leaving dirty cages on the floor etc, after the animal tech had spoken to you about it once or twice, wouldn't they turn it over to their supervisor to handle? That's how it is here and I'm wondering if that varies by institution.
I think maybe he was using these complaints to have contact with her, since if he is an animal tech, he would have been correct to speak to hear, but then he should have informed his supervisor for follow up. I can't imagine why he would be the one to take her to task continually like that.

Do we know for sure that his original complaints were not to a supervisor? I saw one report where the emails were direct to Annie but an original report I saw somewhere said that the emails were from someone other than him.

ilovekitties
09-17-2009, 12:57 PM
This was my original theory. But, not one person has cited anything romantic that knew of either party. Her beauty certainly could be an issue. Especially with him having the mindset that "she thinks she is better than I am" mentality. The problem is that LE has said no sexual assault occurred.

so is it a definite that no sexual assault occurred? is there was an assault, is there a reason why LE would hold that back from becoming public at this time?

Kat
09-17-2009, 01:05 PM
According to 9/17 8:25 a.m. presser, "workplace violence."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati..._annie_le.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/09/17/2009-09-17_lab_tech_raymond_clark_under_arrest_in_the_murd er_of_yale_student_annie_le.html)

(snip)
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence," but would not elaborate on what might have triggered the attack.

thank you awake, suziQ. There is the motive. Workplace violence. I was waiting to hear that from LE. I didn't have a theory.

Now all get to go back and absorb the info from LE into their theories.


FWIW, I enjoyed reading all the theorized motives and none seemed to be to outlandish or unacceptable. Good work everyone.

Gene
09-17-2009, 01:06 PM
I don't think you missed anything, Gene. It may have been faulty reporting...
BTW, hope you didn't think I was saying he expected her to clean the cages, I meant that the argument was about cleaning the mouse cages.

No, I didn't think you were saying that. But this seems strange to me:

ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of the the cages of the mice in the research lab.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

What could make sense is if she was leaving some mess from her experiments in the cages...or that she put too much equipment in the cages and it was preventing him from (somehow) doing his job. He would probably not be expected to clean up after her. But he would be expected to clean up after the mice.

Getting to motive, I imagine that there must an animosity between the techs vs the academics..and he felt it intensly. He used the "rules" (protocols) to get back at the people he resented most. So, he called Annie to task for some rule he felt she had broken and she went with the protocols to defend herself. Like many animal lovers, he justified his rage by his "love for animals", by saying to himself, JH and family "no one should treat a defensless animal that way". If it does come out this way, I would not be surprised if he becomes a hero in the eyes of some extreme animal activists.

Until todays press conference when the chief of police denied that there was any romantic relationship between Clark and Annie, I would have bet they were ex-lovers. After all, Tuba told us that Annie was not in harmony with her marriage. That sounds to me that she might have had an affair and was not completely free from it. His ex-girlfriend claimed he raped her when she tried to break up with her, so if he had an affair with Annie, he might have done the same and then killed her.

But the Chief seemed so convinicing today that there was no romantic involvement between the two. So, I am going for the scenario above.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:09 PM
The article does say that he had an issue with her. This could be faulty information.

P.S. Roy23, not trying to dissent with what you are saying...I guess I am trying not to believe everything I read in the media anymore, but at some point, I guess we have to believe some things we read! Most likely, this reporter had it right...thanks

I have no problem with you, Columbo. I think this part is true because it is so specific and originally came from a reporter that is very reputable.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:10 PM
so is it a definite that no sexual assault occurred? is there was an assault, is there a reason why LE would hold that back from becoming public at this time?

They said "NO sexual assault".

msfittz
09-17-2009, 01:12 PM
The article does say that he had an issue with her. This could be faulty information.

P.S. Roy23, not trying to dissent with what you are saying...I guess I am trying not to believe everything I read in the media anymore, but at some point, I guess we have to believe some things we read! Most likely, this reporter had it right...thanks

Clearly this guy isn't a normal, rational thinking person, so it could be that the overcrowding of cages, and a "blow off" response from Annie could incite him to the point of murder.

But, MOO, that it seems MORE likely for someone to respond the way he did if her were "cornered" and had something at stake beyond the wellbeing of the mice. Specifically that Annie was going to report him, file a complaint or something like that.

I suppose Annie could have claimed to escalate the issue even if he was accusing her. Maybe he excessively hassling her about his gripe, she had enough it, and was like, "That's it. I'm reporting this."

Regardless, I hope we someday find out what his motive was.

Again. JMO

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:13 PM
No, I didn't think you were saying that. But this seems strange to me:

ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of the the cages of the mice in the research lab.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

What could make sense is if she was leaving some mess from her experiments in the cages...or that she put too much equipment in the cages and it was preventing him from (somehow) doing his job. He would probably not be expected to clean up after her. But he would be expected to clean up after the mice.

Getting to motive, I imagine that there must an animosity between the techs vs the academics..and he felt it intensly. He used the "rules" (protocols) to get back at the people he resented most. So, he called Annie to task for some rule he felt she had broken and she went with the protocols to defend herself. Like many animal lovers, he justified his rage by his "love for animals", by saying to himself, JH and family "no one should treat a defensless animal that way". If it does come out this way, I would not be surprised if he becomes a hero in the eyes of some extreme animal activists.

Until todays press conference when the chief of police denied that there was any romantic relationship between Clark and Annie, I would have bet they were ex-lovers. After all, Tuba told us that Annie was not in harmony with her marriage. That sounds to me that she might have had an affair and was not completely free from it. His ex-girlfriend claimed he raped her when she tried to break up with her, so if he had an affair with Annie, he might have done the same and then killed her.

But the Chief seemed so convinicing today that there was no romantic involvement between the two. So, I am going for the scenario above.

Yep, me too.

I think the ABC article is what is confusing people here. From other reports, the word cleanliness might not be real accurate.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Clearly this guy isn't a normal, rational thinking person, so it could be that the overcrowding of cages, and a "blow off" response from Annie could incite him to the point of murder.

But, MOO, that it seems MORE likely for someone to respond the way he did if her were "cornered" and had something at stake beyond the wellbeing of the mice. Specifically that Annie was going to report him, file a complaint or something like that.

I suppose Annie could have claimed to escalate the issue even if he was accusing her. Maybe he excessively hassling her about his gripe, she had enough it, and was like, "That's it. I'm reporting this."

Regardless, I hope we someday find out what his motive was.

Again. JMO


I would be willing to bet that you are right. There was an issue and at first Annie owned up and was conciliatory. But that day for whatever reason, she was not as docile. She challenged him somehow.

Gene
09-17-2009, 01:26 PM
After I wrote this:



Getting to motive, I imagine that there must an animosity between the techs vs the academics..and he felt it intensly. He used the "rules" (protocols) to get back at the people he resented most. So, he called Annie to task for some rule he felt she had broken and she went with the protocols to defend herself. Like many animal lovers, he justified his rage by his "love for animals", by saying to himself, JH and family "no one should treat a defensless animal that way". If it does come out this way, I would not be surprised if he becomes a hero in the eyes of some extreme animal activists.


If found this in the comments section of the article below written by SC:
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

The latest report about the possible motive for this murder is that the alleged killer RC as an animal lover was very disturbed about the way Annie Le was treating the animals. I'm sorry to say I called that one. It's unfortunate and tragic that she had to loose her life, equally tragic for the killer if that was the reason. Maybe it will help to shine a spotlight on these unnecessary and cruel practices. These animal cruelties in research labs which are done mostly for the pursuit of ambition needs to stop

As you can see, some so called animal lovers seem to sympathize more with RC than with Annie.....amazing...

awakewriter
09-17-2009, 01:27 PM
Yeah, I think those who are saying the motive had to do with protocols is right.

This is a guy in a low-level position, trying to exert as much authority as he can. I'd bet he is very controlling and doesn't like people telling him what to do.

I think this is a matter of his compulsive need to enforce perfect compliance with procedures.

IMO, I think the fact that he works with mice is a side issue. His job could have been to keep paper clips stocked or floors mopped. It's about his need for control.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:31 PM
"biology of the laboratory mouse"... lots of great info here despite being written eons ago. maybe something can be gleaned from it about possible cleanliness/protocol slights?



http://www.informatics.jax.org/greenbook/frames/frame4.shtml

A true classic.

I am sure it covers appropriate mouse care for back then, but I think things are a lot more involved now.

This would be what you are looking for- http://iacuc.yale.edu/index.html

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:32 PM
After I wrote this:



If found this in the comments section of the article below written by SC:
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

The latest report about the possible motive for this murder is that the alleged killer RC as an animal lover was very disturbed about the way Annie Le was treating the animals. I'm sorry to say I called that one. It's unfortunate and tragic that she had to loose her life, equally tragic for the killer if that was the reason. Maybe it will help to shine a spotlight on these unnecessary and cruel practices. These animal cruelties in research labs which are done mostly for the pursuit of ambition needs to stop

As you can see, some so called animal lovers seem to sympathize more with RC than with Annie.....amazing...


I am not amazed. This is absolutely typical.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:32 PM
After I wrote this:



If found this in the comments section of the article below written by SC:
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

The latest report about the possible motive for this murder is that the alleged killer RC as an animal lover was very disturbed about the way Annie Le was treating the animals. I'm sorry to say I called that one. It's unfortunate and tragic that she had to loose her life, equally tragic for the killer if that was the reason. Maybe it will help to shine a spotlight on these unnecessary and cruel practices. These animal cruelties in research labs which are done mostly for the pursuit of ambition needs to stop

As you can see, some so called animal lovers seem to sympathize more with RC than with Annie.....amazing...



You may be right but I can't imagine it being true because an animal lover in the sense you are speaking would never be able to do that kind of job to begin with. We should stay tuned, though.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:36 PM
We are sure he complained about her. Go read it. I am aware of faulty information but not once has it been said that she had an issue with him. Cleaning cages was his job and not part of her protocols.

No, we are sure he complained TO her. If he had complained ABOUT her, the animal care supervisor would be the one speaking to her about whatever the issue was.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I think those who are saying the motive had to do with protocols is right.

This is a guy in a low-level position, trying to exert as much authority as he can. I'd bet he is very controlling and doesn't like people telling him what to do.

I think this is a matter of his compulsive need to enforce perfect compliance with procedures.

IMO, I think the fact that he works with mice is a side issue. His job could have been to keep paper clips stocked or floors mopped. It's about his need for control.

I agree completely. If there was a serious issue, he should not have been handling it himself.

Gene
09-17-2009, 01:39 PM
You may be right but I can't imagine it being true because an animal lover in the sense you are speaking would never be able to do that kind of job to begin with. We should stay tuned, though.


I do not agree. There have been many, many animal lovers who have worked in animal labs and then have become "whistle blowers" and reported the mis-treatment of animals (EG Michele Rokke at HLS). They take films and then release them to the public, all the while participating in experiments in order to keep their cover.

Also, some animal lovers do understand the need for animal experimentation and are there to make sure that the animals are treated humanely. He may have seen himself as sort of a protector of animals and lashed out at Annie due to what he saw as possible mis-treatment. I see this as a VERY likely scenario.

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2009, 01:41 PM
They said "NO sexual assault".I haven't seen this yet. Could you please point me to the link? Thanks~

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:42 PM
I do not agree. There have been many, many animal lovers who have worked in animal labs and then have become "whistle blowers" and reported the mis-treatment of animals (EG Michele Rokke at HLS). They take films and then release them to the public, all the while participating in experiments in order to keep their cover.

Also, some animal lovers do understand the need for animal experimentation and are there to make sure that the animals are treated humanely. He may have seen himself as sort of a protector of animals and lashed out at Annie due to what he saw as possible mis-treatment. I see this as a VERY likely scenario.

Interesting.

Hasn't be been there for several years, though. Kudos to you if you are right.

HeyJoe
09-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Until todays press conference when the chief of police denied that there was any romantic relationship between Clark and Annie, I would have bet they were ex-lovers. After all, Tuba told us that Annie was not in harmony with her marriage. That sounds to me that she might have had an affair and was not completely free from it. His ex-girlfriend claimed he raped her when she tried to break up with her, so if he had an affair with Annie, he might have done the same and then killed her.

But the Chief seemed so convinicing today that there was no romantic involvement between the two. So, I am going for the scenario above.

The cause of death strongly insinuates a personal relationship or sexual assault. BUT if they feel that evidence is currently weak or incomplete in that motive, they will be very careful about saying anything to that effect in an official statement. They don't want to contradict themselves if they present a different motive at trial because it would severely jeopardise obtaining a conviction. They certainly don't want reasonable doubt to come into play at trial.

gxm
09-17-2009, 01:45 PM
This was my original theory. But, not one person has cited anything romantic that knew of either party. Her beauty certainly could be an issue. Especially with him having the mindset that "she thinks she is better than I am" mentality. The problem is that LE has said no sexual assault occurred.

Obsession isn't romance. IMO, whatever RC's underlying issues/psychoses are, it's not about the mice. The mice were just the outlet for his sick mind.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:51 PM
I haven't seen this yet. Could you please point me to the link? Thanks~

Originally Posted by SuziQ
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati..._annie_le.html

(snip)
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence," but would not elaborate on what might have triggered the attack.

Indianagirl
09-17-2009, 01:51 PM
Obsession isn't romance. IMO, whatever RC's underlying issues/psychoses are, it's not about the mice. The mice were just the outlet for his sick mind.

I absoultely agree, I think one of his issues was obsession over control, perhaps obsessive and compulsive. I also think he felt inadequate being surrounded by so many highly successful individuals. He probably felt like he was looked down upon. Annie probably didn't want to do things his way or made light of a situation that he took seriously and he just snapped.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Obsession isn't romance. IMO, whatever RC's underlying issues/psychoses are, it's not about the mice. The mice were just the outlet for his sick mind.

Like I said, that was my original theory. LE is stating there is no evidence to indicate this. Also, the media is running rampant all week interviewing everyone they can and not one person is suggesting this. He may have had an sexual obsession but LE is pointing to something involving workplace protocols.

I also agree that this is not about mice. It is about a failure to give him respect.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 02:01 PM
No, we are sure he complained TO her. If he had complained ABOUT her, the animal care supervisor would be the one speaking to her about whatever the issue was.

I have read both scenarios. I read in one article that the emails were directly to her and one that said a supervisor did. Her response was conciliatory.

Gene
09-17-2009, 02:03 PM
The cause of death strongly insinuates a personal relationship or sexual assault. .

I do not agree. I believe law enforcement is saying that there was no sexual assault.

I am not saying that RC is a true animal lover...he has been said to be quite cruel to his dogs. BUT, he certainly could justify his actions by saying Annie was mistreating animals. Could even be part of his defense ("animal lover snaps")....

If true, look for Peta, Alf, Shac and other organizations to pick up his cause. Pour money into his defense....could work....

Roy23
09-17-2009, 02:07 PM
I do not agree. I believe law enforcement is saying that there was no sexual assault.

I am not saying that RC is a true animal lover...he has been said to be quite cruel to his dogs. BUT, he certainly could justify his actions by saying Annie was mistreating animals. Could even be part of his defense ("animal lover snaps")....

If true, look for Peta, Alf, Shac and other organizations to pick up his cause. Pour money into his defense....could work....

Could be that will be the defense but not the truth. I don't think being an animal lover is true, but I totally agree with you on the defense. Will be interesting when they pick a jury, won't it?

Gene
09-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Could be that will be the defense but not the truth. I don't think being an animal lover is true, but I totally agree with you on the defense. Will be interesting when they pick a jury, won't it?


Honestly, if I were his defense attorney that is the way I would go. "Animal Lover Who Snapped"... What other chance does he have? Seems like the evidence will be very hard to argue against....

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 02:15 PM
I wonder if putting his hands on her throat (assuming that's how he killed her) was a reflex for him, not necessarily as a reaction of "passion" or "sexual aggression." He's a documented abuser. It's possible he's abused women in the past by putting his hands around their throats. Maybe in the heat of the moment, he was physically repeating what he's done in the past?

Roy23
09-17-2009, 02:22 PM
Honestly, if I were his defense attorney that is the way I would go. "Animal Lover Who Snapped"... What other chance does he have? Seems like the evidence will be very hard to argue against....

I hear ya. I am surprised that he didn't off himself already. Your theory is about the only way he will gain some sympathy that I can see.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 02:32 PM
Honestly, if I were his defense attorney that is the way I would go. "Animal Lover Who Snapped"... What other chance does he have? Seems like the evidence will be very hard to argue against....

Gene,

Another defense is going to be that he was framed. The fact that the crime scene was not sealed for 5 days could be a major point that they make. I could go on and on about this. Don't get me wrong, it won't work.

gxm
09-17-2009, 02:33 PM
I do not agree. I believe law enforcement is saying that there was no sexual assault.

I am not saying that RC is a true animal lover...he has been said to be quite cruel to his dogs. BUT, he certainly could justify his actions by saying Annie was mistreating animals. Could even be part of his defense ("animal lover snaps")....

If true, look for Peta, Alf, Shac and other organizations to pick up his cause. Pour money into his defense....could work....

Oh no. I sure hope the animal rights activists don't take up his cause. He's no animal lover. (But he is one sick puppy.)

songline
09-17-2009, 02:33 PM
I wonder if putting his hands on her throat (assuming that's how he killed her) was a reflex for him, not necessarily as a reaction of "passion" or "sexual aggression." He's a documented abuser. It's possible he's abused women in the past by putting his hands around their throats. Maybe in the heat of the moment, he was physically repeating what he's done in the past?
Where did that information come from? "He's a documented abuser?
I have not seen that anywhere. can you please direct me there?

MWright
09-17-2009, 02:35 PM
I wonder if putting his hands on her throat (assuming that's how he killed her) was a reflex for him, not necessarily as a reaction of "passion" or "sexual aggression." He's a documented abuser. It's possible he's abused women in the past by putting his hands around their throats. Maybe in the heat of the moment, he was physically repeating what he's done in the past?

Not fully understanding the point here. Putting one's hands on someone's throat IS an an action of anger (passion, aggression, whatever you want to call it) no matter whether not he's done it before. Afterall, documenter abusers in fact may be more prone to acting with anger/passion/aggression instead of using their heads.

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 02:37 PM
I absoultely agree, I think one of his issues was obsession over control, perhaps obsessive and compulsive. I also think he felt inadequate being surrounded by so many highly successful individuals. He probably felt like he was looked down upon. Annie probably didn't want to do things his way or made light of a situation that he took seriously and he just snapped.

I'm thinking along those same lines, Indianagirl....also, with regard to anything Annie may have said to him that day, she could have done something as simple as ask for clarification of whatever he said to her...I worked with a guy who was bipolar & was in the midst of one of his 'worst of times', and I was trying my best to bear with the situation until it got better...anyway, he'd asked me to do something, and I told him I wanted to be sure I was doing exactly what he wanted then asked a couple of questions & he went OFF on me yelling I was being "insubordinate" (did not at any point say I wouldn't do it)! Yowza! It came from nowhere & it was very unsettling - as tho he'd had a break with reality or something....we'd worked together for years & I never saw this coming at all.

So yeah - I think people can snap at the perception of provocation or confrontation.

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 02:39 PM
Opinion: Still thinking illicit affair triggered workplace violence on this one.

Concern: Lawyers running the show for the suspect, police have said workplace violence. Hope the guy doesnt try to plead temporary insanity, or walk free from all the botched evidence from LE not sealing building when it happened.

Opinion: New Haven Police, Yale Security and FBI in this instance, really screwed up..Keystone cops?

We will find out in trial I guess. Am sure suspect's lawyers will be going full blast at trying to destroy Annie's character and make the guy the victim and her the provoker of it all. The illicit affair was the initial trigger

Illicit affair gone bad causes WorkPlace Violence (could see this in the future headlines after trial)



RIP Annie, she didnt deserve to be killed

:waitasec:

MomPI
09-17-2009, 02:39 PM
I work at a University in a medium-level administrative position. Higher education is full of prima donnas (male and female) who think the rules do not apply to them. I see coworkers daily who are expected to "clean up" (figuratively, in our cases) after faculty members who have much more important things on their plates than to follow protocol. RC had anger management/control issues, and AL was probably in a rush getting caught up with her work before leaving for her wedding. I do not want to speak ill of the dead, but I would venture to say that she was not always diplomatic with those "beneath" her level, considering her less-than-high-road response to Princeton (i.e. wanting to send them a pic of her rear end). I think he'd had it and couldn't control his rage. Not making any excuses for him, just trying to understand.

MLE
09-17-2009, 02:39 PM
It could've been something as small as her rolling her eyes over his obnoxious demands.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 02:42 PM
Not fully understanding the point here. Putting one's hands on someone's throat IS an an action of anger (passion, aggression, whatever you want to call it) no matter whether not he's done it before. Afterall, documenter abusers in fact may be more prone to acting with anger/passion/aggression instead of using their heads.

Yes, I agree hands-on-throat is an act of anger/aggression. I mean maybe it looks like it was (partially?) sexually motivated because this is how he may have treated his girlfriends in the past. He may not have been sexually attracted to her, but this method would mimic what he's done in the past.

I don't know, just speculating, trying to put myself in his head at the time.

ilovekitties
09-17-2009, 02:45 PM
After I wrote this:



If found this in the comments section of the article below written by SC:
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

The latest report about the possible motive for this murder is that the alleged killer RC as an animal lover was very disturbed about the way Annie Le was treating the animals. I'm sorry to say I called that one. It's unfortunate and tragic that she had to loose her life, equally tragic for the killer if that was the reason. Maybe it will help to shine a spotlight on these unnecessary and cruel practices. These animal cruelties in research labs which are done mostly for the pursuit of ambition needs to stop

As you can see, some so called animal lovers seem to sympathize more with RC than with Annie.....amazing...

i am an animal lover (as you can see from my screenname). IF it turns out that the motive was that she was mistreating the animals somehow, I don't think people will necessarily sympathize with him, but I think they will understand why it happened more. That doesn't mean they think she deserved to die or what he did was ok - no way. I think it is easier to understand why someone would snap and kill someone because they were hurting an animal rather than they snapped because they were obsessed with a girl and couldn't have her. But yes, there are those animal rights activists who are extreme and they might use him as a martyr.

IWannaKnow
09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
Please note:
I AM NOT CONDONING RC'S ACTIONS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, FORM, CREED OR COLOR!!!!!!!! Please do not attack me.

************************************************** *****

RC's job involved caring for the mice. It was his job. In all likelyhood he took it seriously. It doesn't mean that he had a fifth grade education or the IQ of a toad. If it was his job to make sure the mice were taken care of properly, and in a humane fashion, and Annie's concern was only the results of her lab work, that could cause some friction. If Annie wasn't keeping to protocol, or perhaps didn't really care about the mice themselves, only what they could provide her, wasn't cleaning up after herself, leaving things in cages.....that would all impact RC's job. Just because she was brilliant doesn't mean she knew every in and out about the lab, or was perfect. Add to that a seemingly fairly severe control issue on RC's part and you have a powder keg that only lacked a match to start a bonfire. Does anyone know how long he had been working there? Because Annie just started in that lab, I read somewhere, if that is still correct. If he was a long time employee, and she was new....

And I stand by my statement that Annie was carrying the lab protocol book on the video and was about to figuratively wrap it around RC's neck (to make her point). PLUS, Annie had a way with words when angry, from what I've read. I could easily see her finally getting enough, what with the stress from the upcoming wedding. I don't believe that would go down well with RC.

From:http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/17/raymond.clark.profile/index.html

~snipped, BBM by me
Clark was an honor student at Branford High School in suburban New Haven. He graduated in 2004, and according to the school's yearbook, he was a member of the Asian Awareness Club his senior year.

High school friend Lisa Heselin remembers Clark "as a jokester, kind of a class clown," she said. "Everybody knew him. Everybody liked him."

She and others who knew Clark in high school are shocked that he was arrested in connection with Le's murder, she said. Watch what acquaintances say about Clark »

"They can't believe it, and then, of course, you're reminiscing, like, 'Oh my God, remember when we went over to his house and we all hung out?' You don't expect somebody you grew up with to be involved in something like this," Heselin said.

Most of his current neighbors in Middletown, about 30 miles northeast of New Haven, said they moved in after Clark or knew him only in passing. Many said he shared the second-floor apartment with his girlfriend and a dog.

Police said he drove a Ford Mustang, which was seized as evidence.

Neighbor Ashley Rowe described Clark as "decent" and said he asked a lot of questions when he spoke to people and wanted to know their full names and where they were from.
Rowe also remembered the first time she met his dog.

"His dog was very excited and he was just like, 'Oh, don't worry. He's friendly.' You could pet him," she said. "Pretty much, he just loved his dog and he walked around with his dog all the time."

MLE
09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
If it's true that he dismembered her, I wonder what on Earth would've been his motive for that. Was it simply to compact the space of the body to hide it? Did he disect her and/or subject her to some of the experiments she had done on the animals as some sort of revenge on behalf of the animals? I still just cannot get over how it took them so long to identify the body when they knew it was a female. One can only wonder in what kind of shape her body must've been in.

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
Yes, I agree hands-on-throat is an act of anger/aggression. I mean maybe it looks like it was (partially?) sexually motivated because this is how he may have treated his girlfriends in the past. He may not have been sexually attracted to her, but this method would mimic what he's done in the past.

I don't know, just speculating, trying to put myself in his head at the time.

Exactly Ailina

This is how he may have treated HIS GIRLFRIENDS in the past (not all girls)

I keep thinking illicit affair was the trigger of it all

Just opinion though

HeyJoe
09-17-2009, 02:50 PM
I will be very interested in hearing about the scratch pattern and whether her own skin was under her fingernails. That will be very telling about the type of strangulation applied and thus possible motive.

Roy23
09-17-2009, 03:02 PM
You guys should read the article on CNN about RC. It sure paints him as a really good guy. Not the kind of stuff that we have been reading in the past about him. Maybe he was an animal lover after all.

Gene
09-17-2009, 03:04 PM
Gene,

Another defense is going to be that he was framed. The fact that the crime scene was not sealed for 5 days could be a major point that they make. I could go on and on about this. Don't get me wrong, it won't work.


Yes, but it will be hard to explain away the swipe cards...they documented that he was with her when she died and he was in the room where her body was hidden.

Unless he can claim (and prove) someone took it and put it back without his knowing about it....

f_stills
09-17-2009, 03:10 PM
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/accused-annie-le-murderer-ray-clark/Story?id=8602492&page=2

Sources tell ABC News there were e-mails or text messages between Clark and Le regarding the cleanliness of the lab. Clark's job included cleaning the mice cages in the lab, and in his email to Le he complained that she had left the cages dirty, sources said.

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 03:15 PM
I’ve postulated this several times before, but now that we’re certain there was no sexual assault, and LE and Yale are calling it “workplace violence”, I thought I’d revisit a previous discussion on motive from when Eyes4crime asked 2 key questions earlier in this thread:

1) What was it about Annie (that was different than the other grad students/co-workers)?
2) What happened recently in RC’s life that would make him full of such rage?

**********************

1) What was different about Annie (from all the grad students that RC may have resented and worked with) was that she was getting married.

Now, think like a bride: you’re trying to work full time - you have a commuter engagement and a wedding out of the town you work in – tomorrow your relatives are arriving in NY and you’re trying to get the heck out of New Haven. You’ve been running back and forth to NY for several weeks, getting ready for the wedding, you’ve overlooked a few little things such as your mice protocols. You get a call about the mice, grab your notebook(s) and maybe even the protocol manual and run over to meet the lab staff.

So, she went to meet him at his request, conciliatory but, perhaps full of excuses about how busy she’d been with all the wedding stuff. (If she knows from workplace chatter that RC is getting married to his fiancé who also works at the lab, she might even bring that up.) Basically Annie might be just trying to apologize and be friendly and cooperative. But, the fact of the matter is she’s leaving town (again) for the wedding. The wedding is so important, work comes 2nd and everyone understands that. Perhaps she needs to arrange things with him so she can abandon the mice again. And again, the mice – RC’s world or work - comes in 2nd to the wedding.



2) Now, think like RC, if that’s possible. RC is proud of his work, and his role as enforcer of the rules and protocols about the lab animals. And yes, he’s controlling, and at work, the protocol is the thing that he’s allowed to use to control, and he’s serious about it. He has to basically train the Grad students in protocols, as they come in untrained. Grad students are annoying, sloppy, disrespectful, and arrogant, and he resnts them, but, that’s not new. However, that resentment builds up…

But, on top of that, AND what is different & HAS changed this year for RC is the live-in-girlfriend turned fiancé, who’s got wedding stuff up on myspace more than a year before the wedding is to occur…who he’s living together with for financial reasons (?) but now he’s engaged. Maybe it’s stressful for RC – the engagement, the wedding. Maybe the chatter at home (and at work – fiancé works with him) about his own wedding stuff is too much for him. Maybe he had a fight with his fiancé about wedding things…

As we are told time & again, strangulation is a very personal murder. The act comes from a place of very personal rage, (normally against a family member/love interest). I guess I can see it being as simple as that. Something about Annie that morning triggered a raging personal attack. The twist here is that RC may not have been strangling Annie in his mind. In his mind, he may have been strangling his other problems – problems Annie was representing to him at that moment.

**********************

All that being said, THEY BEST HAVE IRREFUTABLE DNA EVIDENCE under Annie’s fingernails that match RC. That would make all of this sooooo much easier, because, let’s face it…who kills a co-worker over a dirty mouse cage? It’s almost unfathomable. Even with the out-of-normal swipe pattern, all that shows is RC saw her alive that day in the room she was killed in. (Annie could have opened the door for her non-RC killer – no swipe required.) Without DNA, it’s a really hard story to sell.

(Heck, I’ve been trying to sell it here for days, and hardly anyone one buys it!):crazy:

That’s all I got locked up in my noggin at the moment...except for my relief to wake up and hear LE’s got RC locked up (finally!).

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 03:20 PM
Excellent post, Emma. Agreed, agreed. Especially the part about RC "strangling his problems." Fully agreed.

Trino
09-17-2009, 03:21 PM
What is this supposed to mean?

"They work in the same building, passed in the hallways," New Haven Police Chief James Lewis said of Le and Clark. "Anything beyond that, I won't talk about."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/17/raymond.clark.profile/index.html

masscph
09-17-2009, 03:31 PM
What is this supposed to mean?

"They work in the same building, passed in the hallways," New Haven Police Chief James Lewis said of Le and Clark. "Anything beyond that, I won't talk about."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/17/raymond.clark.profile/index.html

Dont think you should put anything into that other than he dont want to say anything while building up the case.

Since he texted her on the day, and he had emailed her previously, its obvious more than "working in the same building" - ofcourse.

ilovekitties
09-17-2009, 03:34 PM
I’ve postulated this several times before, but now that we’re certain there was no sexual assault, and LE and Yale are calling it “workplace violence”, I thought I’d revisit a previous discussion on motive from when Eyes4crime asked 2 key questions earlier in this thread:

1) What was it about Annie (that was different than the other grad students/co-workers)?
2) What happened recently in RC’s life that would make him full of such rage?

**********************

1) What was different about Annie (from all the grad students that RC may have resented and worked with) was that she was getting married.

Now, think like a bride: you’re trying to work full time - you have a commuter engagement and a wedding out of the town you work in – tomorrow your relatives are arriving in NY and you’re trying to get the heck out of New Haven. You’ve been running back and forth to NY for several weeks, getting ready for the wedding, you’ve overlooked a few little things such as your mice protocols.

So, she went to meet him at his request, conciliatory but, perhaps full of excuses about how busy she’d been with all the wedding stuff. (If she knows from workplace chatter that RC is getting married to his fiancé who also works at the lab, she might even bring that up.) Basically Annie might be just trying to apologize and be friendly and cooperative. But, the fact of the matter is she’s leaving town (again) for the wedding. The wedding is so important, work comes 2nd and everyone understands that. Perhaps she needs to arrange things with him so she can abandon the mice again. And again, the mice – RC’s world or work - comes in 2nd to the wedding.



2) Now, think like RC, if that’s possible. RC is proud of his work, and his role as enforcer of the rules and protocols about the lab animals. And yes, he’s controlling, and at work, the protocol is the thing that he’s allowed to use to control, and he’s serious about it. He has to basically train the Grad students in protocols, as they come in untrained. Grad students are annoying, sloppy, disrespectful, and arrogant, and he resnts them, but, that’s not new. However, that resentment builds up…

But, on top of that, AND what is different & HAS changed this year for RC is the live-in-girlfriend turned fiancé, who’s got wedding stuff up on myspace more than a year before the wedding is to occur…who he’s living together with for financial reasons (?) but now he’s engaged. Maybe it’s stressful for RC – the engagement, the wedding. Maybe the chatter at home (and at work – fiancé works with him) about his own wedding stuff is too much for him. Maybe he had a fight with his fiancé about wedding things…

As we are told time & again, strangulation is a very personal murder. The act comes from a place of very personal rage, (normally against a family member/love interest). I guess I can see it being as simple as that. Something about Annie that morning triggered a raging personal attack. The twist here is that RC may not have been strangling Annie in his mind. In his mind, he may have been strangling his other problems – problems Annie was representing to him at that moment.

**********************

All that being said, THEY BEST HAVE IRREFUTABLE DNA EVIDENCE under Annie’s fingernails that match RC. That would make all of this sooooo much easier, because, let’s face it…who kills a co-worker over a dirty mouse cage? It’s almost unfathomable. Even with the out-of-normal swipe pattern, all that shows is RC saw her alive that day in the room she was killed in. (Annie could have opened the door for her non-RC killer – no swipe required.) Without DNA, it’s a really hard story to sell.

(Heck, I’ve been trying to sell it here for days, and hardly anyone one buys it!):crazy:

That’s all I got locked up in my noggin at the moment...except for my relief to wake up and hear LE’s got RC locked up (finally!).

and also -and I take this with a grain of salt because you can't believe everything you hear - I have read that she has a history of being condescending to lab techs, and she is very manipulative and cut throat with her work. again, who knows if this is true, but if she acted like this towards him and he was laready unstable, that could explain why he snapped.

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 03:38 PM
What is this supposed to mean?

"They work in the same building, passed in the hallways," New Haven Police Chief James Lewis said of Le and Clark. "Anything beyond that, I won't talk about."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/17/raymond.clark.profile/index.html


Just the LE contradicting themselves, like they have been for the past 10 days

tksa
09-17-2009, 03:39 PM
Perhaps she needs to arrange things with him so she can abandon the mice again. And again, the mice – RC’s world or work - comes in 2nd to the wedding.

Note that taking care of the mice was RC's job. Cleaning the cages was also RC's job. So if Annie took off and abandoned the mice to RC for a month, that would actually not impact RC at all, and would actually give him less work.

In fact, I'm not sure exactly what RC could be complaining about when he sent e-mail about dirty cages/mice. The only kind of complaint that would seem reasonable would be if somehow Annie had made the cages needlessly, unusually dirty. Maybe someone more familiar with mouse-based research could speculate.

ges79
09-17-2009, 03:40 PM
and also -and I take this with a grain of salt because you can't believe everything you hear - I have read that she has a history of being condescending to lab techs, and she is very manipulative and cut throat with her work. again, who knows if this is true, but if she acted like this towards him and he was laready unstable, that could explain why he snapped.

I'm way behind in reading all the threads, but can you point me to your sources (links to stories) about her treating lab techs disrespectfully? TIA

bogeygal
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_re_us/us_yale_killing

Don't know if this has been posted yet.

AP Source: Yale Suspect's Work Attitude Examined

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 03:47 PM
Note that taking care of the mice was RC's job. Cleaning the cages was also RC's job. So if Annie took off and abandoned the mice to RC for a month, that would actually not impact RC at all, and would actually give him less work.

In fact, I'm not sure exactly what RC could be complaining about when he sent e-mail about dirty cages/mice. The only kind of complaint that would seem reasonable would be if somehow Annie had made the cages needlessly, unusually dirty. Maybe someone more familiar with mouse-based research could speculate.

FYI - Re your sentence that I bolded. If you search for the poster labrat's excellent & detailed entries from yesterday (or any over the past week) about lab protocols, you will see that the issue of keeping cages clean does involve quite a bit of interaction between the lower-level researchers, as well as staff such as RC. Responsibilities of one affect the other - it's a problem for both parties. And the grad students don't always know and/or adhere to the protocols as well as the lab staff members who maintain the mice know that they should. These conversations/discussions/issues over protocols, apparently, are very very common.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 03:48 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_re_us/us_yale_killing

Don't know if this has been posted yet.

AP Source: Yale Suspect's Work Attitude Examined

This totally fits into my line of thinking.

ilovekitties
09-17-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm way behind in reading all the threads, but can you point me to your sources (links to stories) about her treating lab techs disrespectfully? TIA

it was on this page: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090916195134AA62Bd3, but I just checked and the entry was taken off. A girl named "Linda" claimed she worked with her and said she was condescending to lab techs and manipulative. again, not exactly a reputable source, but that's what it said. wonder why they took her entry off??

Avery
09-17-2009, 03:53 PM
This totally fits into my line of thinking.


I'm right there with ya!!

Roy23
09-17-2009, 03:54 PM
Yale murder suspect called nice, smart per article on CNN

masscph
09-17-2009, 03:59 PM
it was on this page: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090916195134AA62Bd3, but I just checked and the entry was taken off. A girl named "Linda" claimed she worked with her and said she was condescending to lab techs and manipulative. again, not exactly a reputable source, but that's what it said. wonder why they took her entry off??

Alot of people got offended by what she wrote, and i understand them.

Got the complete post she wrote, but dont like to post it, its just an outright attack on her person.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 03:59 PM
it was on this page: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090916195134AA62Bd3, but I just checked and the entry was taken off. A girl named "Linda" claimed she worked with her and said she was condescending to lab techs and manipulative. again, not exactly a reputable source, but that's what it said. wonder why they took her entry off??

Yeah, I would stay away from Yahoo Answers for WS postings. Any Joe Schmoe can post whatever they want there. I'd stick to more reputable sources.

MLE
09-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Yale murder suspect called nice, smart per article on CNN

They're probably right, in some ways. This guy reminds me so much of a former roommate of mine. He was very bright and a very nice guy in a lot of ways, but he was definitely mentally ill, which was probably an inherited chemical imbalance since his mother tried to run over cops with her car and was put in a mental institution. When a girl stole some of his liquor, some of my beer, and some of our potato chips, he talked about "squaring her a-hole" with the 6"x6" square-shaped bottle of Patron tequila she stole, or pouring some tequila down her throat and lighting it. I could go on and on. He was a supernice guy in many ways, but he also controlled his girlfriends and it'll be a miracle if he doesn't go to prison someday for something totally insane.

Oh, he also talked about hooking his tractor trailer up to the trailer office and dragging it down the highway since he was upset at the management for rooking him out of pay.

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 04:10 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.

bogeygal
09-17-2009, 04:19 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.

Can relate to what you just said puffster,

I go to a small supermarket where there is only one man in charge of collecting the grocery carts outside. He's the low man on the totem pole for this market. The one time that I did not put my cart in the "designated spot", he flipped out. I told him that there was no more room in the one by my parking spot. He yelled at me at the top of his lungs. Geez, it shocked me and I try to avoid shopping there now!

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Alot of people got offended by what she wrote, and i understand them.

Got the complete post she wrote, but dont like to post it, its just an outright attack on her person.

not to mention there are plenty of disgusting trolls who like to stir the pot with those kinds of posts.

MHamby
09-17-2009, 04:23 PM
I guess the part that confuses me is that he 'seems' like a bright enough person. If I had just killed someone and spend hours deliberating on what to do with the body, I don't think that I would hang around town for the police to just find me. Especially after having failed a polygraph.

Did he really think they didn't have a case against him? Did he really think that he cleaned up the mess that well?

I would like to ask those with a Prosecuting background: If they cannot, physically, put him at the scene of the crime (all they have are his swipe card entries), and just have physical evidence that he was with her that morning, but not necessarily while she died, does the prosecution still have a case?

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 04:26 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.

like Dennis Rader & his position of "Compliance Officer" who wrote tickets for loose dogs & too-tall grass....he took his authoritative position seriously too -- to the point of harassment.

tksa
09-17-2009, 04:27 PM
I guess the part that confuses me is that he 'seems' like a bright enough person. If I had just killed someone and spend hours deliberating on what to do with the body, I don't think that I would hang around town for the police to just find me. Especially after having failed a polygraph.


Hm...perhaps the police already were following him by Tuesday evening, and he just didn't act fast enough. Since she was reported missing on Tuesday, and they have the card swipe record, I would think that they would be interviewing him by Tuesday.

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Can relate to what you just said puffster,

I go to a small supermarket where there is only one man in charge of collecting the grocery carts outside. He's the low man on the totem pole for this market. The one time that I did not put my cart in the "designated spot", he flipped out. I told him that there was no more room in the one by my parking spot. He yelled at me at the top of his lungs. Geez, it shocked me and I try to avoid shopping there now!
Right, right...and then said person will yell at you about the specific protocols of ther little world, "Those shopping carts go in Row A, not Row B, don't you know that you stupid fool?"

Can you imagine...Annie working on possible breaktrhoughs in medical science and he's literally cleaning the animals' toilets. And being her feisty self I can see her calling him out, which is something I could see myself doing. "I'm working on something very important right now and I don't have time for this."

Roy23
09-17-2009, 04:28 PM
I guess the part that confuses me is that he 'seems' like a bright enough person. If I had just killed someone and spend hours deliberating on what to do with the body, I don't think that I would hang around town for the police to just find me. Especially after having failed a polygraph.

Did he really think they didn't have a case against him? Did he really think that he cleaned up the mess that well?

I would like to ask those with a Prosecuting background: If they cannot, physically, put him at the scene of the crime (all they have are his swipe card entries), and just have physical evidence that he was with her that morning, but not necessarily while she died, does the prosecution still have a case?

Absolutely. I think his DNA on her person with scratches on his body is enough on its own. They probably have photos of him coming into the building wearing one set of clothing that they found in the building and another set of clothing of him wearing when he went out. That is more than almost any case that we ever see.

debbie0604
09-17-2009, 04:28 PM
Where did that information come from? "He's a documented abuser?
I have not seen that anywhere. can you please direct me there?
A reporter stated last night either on NG or JVM, I can't remember which, that he had been in trouble with the law previously for attacking a girl.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Oh no. I sure hope the animal rights activists don't take up his cause. He's no animal lover. (But he is one sick puppy.)

If the defense tries the "animal lover" angle, the prosecution could get RC's ex-neighbor for a witness---RC's own dogs were caged all day, cried and barked all day. That's abusive.

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 04:31 PM
like Dennis Rader & his position of "Compliance Officer" who wrote tickets for loose dogs & too-tall grass....he took his authoritative position seriously too -- to the point of harassment.

The BTK Killer...
In 1991 Rader was hired to be supervisor of the Compliance Department at Park City, a two-employee, multi-functional department in charge of "animal control, housing problems, zoning, general permit enforcement and a variety of nuisance cases." In this position, neighbors recalled him as sometimes overzealous and extremely strict; one neighbor complained that he euthanized her dog for no reason

.

Harmony2
09-17-2009, 04:32 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.

There are also people who gunny sack their frustrations until the slightest little thing will set them off. I am a speech pathologist and approximately 15 years ago one of my clients, a seven year old was at a laundromat with her mom. She was playing on the floor next to the soda machine. A guy came in to buy a soda and went berzerk when he lost his coins in the soda machine and did not get his soda. He pulled out a knife and stabbed the little girl and her mom. The little one died at the scene. The case has never been solved. Long winded way to say that some people do not need alot of provocation and may take it out on someone totally unrelated to their problems. Clark may have been having issues with many others but a small infraction by Annie (because she was busy getting ready for her marriage) may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

face100
09-17-2009, 04:33 PM
it was on this page: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090916195134AA62Bd3, but I just checked and the entry was taken off. A girl named "Linda" claimed she worked with her and said she was condescending to lab techs and manipulative. again, not exactly a reputable source, but that's what it said. wonder why they took her entry off??
No matter how nice you are , you will always have people who hate or don't like you for whatever reason . Annie is well liked by most of the people who know her , but she definitely has individuals like nickname Linda who hates no matter how nice she is .

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 04:33 PM
Yale murder suspect called nice, smart per article on CNN

don't we all wish we had a dollar for every "but he was such a nice guy" quote?

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 04:34 PM
A reporter stated last night either on NG or JVM, I can't remember which, that he had been in trouble with the law previously for attacking a girl.

A police detecive went on record saying that a woman accused him of stalking and rape in HS but she didn't press charges. ...reported in Daily News.

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2009, 04:39 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.You seem to be describing a person with OCD. They control what they can when something in their lives are seemingly out of their control. The type of behavior you describe is consistent with certain forms of OCD. It would be interesting to find out if he was a neat freak in daily routines.

I will be most interested in finding out if the book she was carrying was indeed on protocols of the lab concerning the mice. Could be exactly why LE didn't want to reveal what she had in her hands as it could go to motive.

TanyaT
09-17-2009, 04:41 PM
If this was a spur-of-the-moment out of control rage thing why would he have an extra set clothing that he is thought to have changed into when he took of his blooding ones?

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2009, 04:45 PM
If this was a spur-of-the-moment out of control rage thing why would he have an extra set clothing that he is thought to have changed into when he took of his blooding ones?I don't know what the janitorial staff or animal techs would wear at work. Lab coats? Jumpsuits? Since cleaning cages could get disgusting and messy, it could be he kept an extra change of clothes to change into before leaving to go home just in case.

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 04:48 PM
I know here at my work today,most everyone is saying just another case of Workplace Violence that is so common now adays?? Dont think so, way more to this then what they are saying, not just a WorkPlace Violence situation.

HeyJoe
09-17-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't know what the janitorial staff or animal techs would wear at work. Lab coats? Jumpsuits? Since cleaning cages could get disgusting and messy, it could be he kept an extra change of clothes to change into before leaving to go home just in case.

Probably scrubs. Just like hospital orderlies. I will speculate that it was more than just a small amount of blood that compelled him to change. It is likely that his clothing was also torn and disheveled.

Texas Mist
09-17-2009, 04:57 PM
I know here at my work today,most everyone is saying just another case of Workplace Violence that is so common now adays?? Dont think so, way more to this then what they are saying, not just a WorkPlace Violence situation.

perhaps we'll understand it later on, but for now I'm with you....I can only think of women who were killed at work by their boyfriends or husbands (current, estranged, or ex)...and to me, that's entirely different from being murdered in cold blood by a co-worker w/o any history of 'issues' between those involved.

can anyone else recall a woman who was killed at work by a co-worker? one who snapped out of the blue, or had had difficulties getting along?

MHamby
09-17-2009, 05:00 PM
You seem to be describing a person with OCD. They control what they can when something in their lives are seemingly out of their control. The type of behavior you describe is consistent with certain forms of OCD. It would be interesting to find out if he was a neat freak in daily routines.


Or, if parts of his life were extremes in either way.

I have been diagnosed with ADD, and, in most people with my condition, I also suffer from selective OCD.

In some situations I have to have things a particular way, while in others, I am a complete mess.

I explain it to my girlfriend as such: I am horrible with food and dishes. I leave them lying around constantly. Eventually, sometimes days, or possibly, weeks later, I will do one massive cleanup. However, with clothes, I have to have everything 'perfect'. Everything is folded the same way, hung up the same way and direction, clothes must go in laundry basket, etc.

For as telling as him being extremely orderly and neat in other parts of his life, if there are parts of his life that were in the extreme opposite, I think that would also explain quite a bit as well.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 05:04 PM
For as telling as him being extremely orderly and neat in other parts of his life, if there are parts of his life that were in the extreme opposite, I think that would also explain quite a bit as well.

Thanks for clarifying this. I wondered if OCD might not apply to him, because the newspapers did report his apartment "smelled like animals," which would leave me to believe maybe he wasn't as anal as I'd originally thought.

But judging from what you've presented here, it does make sense he'd be neurotic in some areas of life, and chaotic in others.

TanyaT
09-17-2009, 05:05 PM
I don't know what the janitorial staff or animal techs would wear at work. Lab coats? Jumpsuits? Since cleaning cages could get disgusting and messy, it could be he kept an extra change of clothes to change into before leaving to go home just in case.

Well if the labcoat was the bloody clothing that they found then looking at him entering and leaving he would be wearing the same clothing which wouldn't raise any flags. So I guess that's not really what tipped them off.

porkchop
09-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Before I start I would like to say that I'm not saying Annie deserved to die, this is just what I think may have happened.

In my life I had many jobs and I have seen workplace violence at just about every one of them. I have even seen a few that started as a heated argument between a man and woman then turned physical. In every one of those it was the woman that initiated the violence.

So maybe he texted Annie to meet about protocals and she was tired of his constant nagging. So when she got to the lab they started arguing. In the course of their arguing she lost control of her temper and either pushed or slapped him. That caused him to completely loss it and he strangles her. When he calms down he relizes what he did and hides the body then changes into his workout clothes and hides his clothes.

Again I'm not saying she deserved this but alot of people have rage issues. Some can be set of by trying to argue with somebody and not being heard. In the case of Clark I think he is like other people I know, you can yell and scream at him all day but as soon as you push him or touch him durring an arguement or if they are upset they are liable to fly into a rage.

missyjane77
09-17-2009, 05:06 PM
Exactly! But ours are called husbandry techs. Missy, were you are, If you were messing up in the room- overcrowding, leaving dirty cages on the floor etc, after the animal tech had spoken to you about it once or twice, wouldn't they turn it over to their supervisor to handle? That's how it is here and I'm wondering if that varies by institution.
I think maybe he was using these complaints to have contact with her, since if he is an animal tech, he would have been correct to speak to hear, but then he should have informed his supervisor for follow up. I can't imagine why he would be the one to take her to task continually like that.

Absolutely! Not only would the animal supervisor be notified, but MY supervisor would be too. They call us for every single little thing! My mice had a fight and one got bitten on the ear. Guess who got a call! lol!

I wonder if he didn't have some weird obsession with her and that's why he never "forwarded" the complaints on to his boss. Or maybe he thought he was "the man" and could handle things by himself.

maggieo
09-17-2009, 05:07 PM
I know here at my work today,most everyone is saying just another case of Workplace Violence that is so common now adays?? Dont think so, way more to this then what they are saying, not just a WorkPlace Violence situation.

I agree, and saying "just another case of workplace violence" is a way of minimizing it. A vicious murder is a vicious murder, and I don't feel that where it takes place makes it into some kind of brand new crime.

There was a very similar murder here in my town: a beautiful young Ivy League scientist inexplicably murdered, just after she put her wedding photos on FaceBook. Her body was found on a jogging trail. But in her case it didn't get much media attention, because there wasn't much mystery as to who did it, and who did it was her husband.

It's interesting what makes the news and what doesn't, isn't it?

Miss_Scarlett
09-17-2009, 05:08 PM
I'll add a different angle. She was cute and pretty and tiny. What kind of expectation did he have of her that he would not have of a woman who is not any of those things, esp. tiny (i.e. childlike)? She was also very intelligent. Men choose women like that the way abusers choose vulnerable looking children. I'm sure there would be a huge expectation gap even if she simply responded to him in a matter-of-fact way. She didn't owe it to him to be nice and smiley and giggly for him.

Miss_Scarlett
09-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Before I start I would like to say that I'm not saying Annie deserved to die, this is just what I think may have happened.

In my life I had many jobs and I have seen workplace violence at just about every one of them. I have even seen a few that started as a heated argument between a man and woman then turned physical. In every one of those it was the woman that initiated the violence.

So maybe he texted Annie to meet about protocals and she was tired of his constant nagging. So when she got to the lab they started arguing. In the course of their arguing she lost control of her temper and either pushed or slapped him. That caused him to completely loss it and he strangles her. When he calms down he relizes what he did and hides the body then changes into his workout clothes and hides his clothes.

Again I'm not saying she deserved this but alot of people have rage issues. Some can be set of by trying to argue with somebody and not being heard. In the case of Clark I think he is like other people I know, you can yell and scream at him all day but as soon as you push him or touch him durring an arguement or if they are upset they are liable to fly into a rage.

Wow. What kind of work do you do? I don't think I've ever seen anyone in a physical confrontation at any job I've ever had!

gxm
09-17-2009, 05:10 PM
In all seriousness, how many cases of workplace violence involve a hands on killing method such as strangulation? It seems to me that most involve walking in with a gun and going on a shooting spree, not calling someone to set up a meeting and then strangling the person. Am I wrong here?

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Before I start I would like to say that I'm not saying Annie deserved to die, this is just what I think may have happened.

In my life I had many jobs and I have seen workplace violence at just about every one of them. I have even seen a few that started as a heated argument between a man and woman then turned physical. In every one of those it was the woman that initiated the violence.

So maybe he texted Annie to meet about protocals and she was tired of his constant nagging. So when she got to the lab they started arguing. In the course of their arguing she lost control of her temper and either pushed or slapped him. That caused him to completely loss it and he strangles her. When he calms down he relizes what he did and hides the body then changes into his workout clothes and hides his clothes.

Again I'm not saying she deserved this but alot of people have rage issues. Some can be set of by trying to argue with somebody and not being heard. In the case of Clark I think he is like other people I know, you can yell and scream at him all day but as soon as you push him or touch him durring an arguement or if they are upset they are liable to fly into a rage.

This may be true, porkchop, but we must consider history. RC has a history of impulsive violence. Annie's history shows nothing of the sort.

To boot, I don't believe she would've achieved all she had and been put into a trusted position as she was if she'd demonstrated impulsive violence, or even a tendency toward it. Sure, people bow to intimidation all the time, but to a 4'11", 90-lb. Asian female? I wouldn't think so.

KeenEyes
09-17-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm still not convinced that this was anything related to his job versus hers, etc. I honestly believe that he was probably infatuated with her, knew she was getting married and decided to take a chance to approach her. Annie rejected him and he killed her. Now, the other thing that I am questioning right now is could this be something similar to what happened in the Texas cadet murder case? I'm am tossing this out there because of the strong accusations that the fiance posted on the MySpace page and the fact that she was so convinced that he wouldn't have an affair on her. Obviously something happened that made her post those things so is it possible that she might have helped him with this? I know it's probably a stretch but I sensed a real insecurity by his fiance, almost to the point of desperation and trying to convince herself that he wouldn't stray on her.

There does appear to be something amiss about the RC/JH relationship. I know that there are men and women who infer to their significant other that someone is flirting with them or even fully involved with them romantically and/or sexually, and not only is it entirely a fabrication, the accused would be oblivious to any reason he/she would be the topic of the couple's conversation. Apparently, the provoking of jealousy and insecurity and the ensuing argument feeds the codependency on which the couple's relationship is based. The root issue, of course, is much deeper and more twisted than romance or affection. Perhaps, RC himself was "leaking" the stories of the lab romance(s) that so inflamed JH. If there was a secret (even to Annie!) romance with her, it would have taken a humiliatingly direct hit when Annie announced plans to marry her Mr. Wonderful, Mr. Right and been very grating to a psychopathic personality.

ChasingMoxie
09-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Before I start I would like to say that I'm not saying Annie deserved to die, this is just what I think may have happened.

In my life I had many jobs and I have seen workplace violence at just about every one of them. I have even seen a few that started as a heated argument between a man and woman then turned physical. In every one of those it was the woman that initiated the violence.

So maybe he texted Annie to meet about protocals and she was tired of his constant nagging. So when she got to the lab they started arguing. In the course of their arguing she lost control of her temper and either pushed or slapped him. That caused him to completely loss it and he strangles her. When he calms down he relizes what he did and hides the body then changes into his workout clothes and hides his clothes.

Again I'm not saying she deserved this but alot of people have rage issues. Some can be set of by trying to argue with somebody and not being heard. In the case of Clark I think he is like other people I know, you can yell and scream at him all day but as soon as you push him or touch him durring an arguement or if they are upset they are liable to fly into a rage.

I doubt that it was Annie who instigated the violence. I think in a case where we have a petite young woman without a violent history attacked and killed by a larger man with a violent history, it is reasonable to assume that she was NOT the aggressor.

missyjane77
09-17-2009, 05:15 PM
it was on this page: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6195134AA62Bd3, but I just checked and the entry was taken off. A girl named "Linda" claimed she worked with her and said she was condescending to lab techs and manipulative. again, not exactly a reputable source, but that's what it said. wonder why they took her entry off??

Unfortunately, this is a common attitude for the "higher level" staff in the lab. We have postdocs (people with PhDs who don't have their own lab yet) who refuse to do basic science experiements because that's "a tech's job". We even have PIs (the boss) talk down to techs because they think they aren't as good as the PI because they "only" have a bachelors or masters degree. They think they are better than everyone who doesn't hold a PhD. People in labs need to realize that without the techs (of all classes and in all departments), the work couldn't get done.

bogeygal
09-17-2009, 05:15 PM
perhaps we'll understand it later on, but for now I'm with you....I can only think of women who were killed at work by their boyfriends or husbands (current, estranged, or ex)...and to me, that's entirely different from being murdered in cold blood by a co-worker w/o any history of 'issues' between those involved.

can anyone else recall a woman who was killed at work by a co-worker? one who snapped out of the blue, or had had difficulties getting along?

Bold by me:

Here's one Texas Mist:

Man Stabs, Kills Female Co-Worker

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16720373/detail.html

TanyaT
09-17-2009, 05:16 PM
I doubt that it was Annie who instigated the violence. I think in a case where we have a petite young woman without a violent history attacked and killed by a larger man with a violent history, it is reasonable to assume that she was NOT the aggressor.

It does seem like a stretch but we've heard from so many people that she was 'fiesty' and had a personality much bigger than her physical size.

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 05:16 PM
I agree, and saying "just another case of workplace violence" is a way of minimizing it. A vicious murder is a vicious murder, and I don't feel that where it takes place makes it into some kind of brand new crime.

There was a very similar murder here in my town: a beautiful young Ivy League scientist inexplicably murdered, just after she put her wedding photos on FaceBook. Her body was found on a jogging trail. But in her case it didn't get much media attention, because there wasn't much mystery as to who did it, and who did it was her husband.

It's interesting what makes the news and what doesn't, isn't it?


ah yes. the upstate NY post-doc (? i think) murder last spring at the state park off-campus. i have often wondered why that got no news coverage. i felt it also had so many elements of interesting case, but no one picked up on it... do you happen to know if it's going to trial?

maggieo
09-17-2009, 05:23 PM
In all seriousness, how many cases of workplace violence involve a hands on killing method such as strangulation? It seems to me that most involve walking in with a gun and going on a shooting spree, not calling someone to set up a meeting and then strangling the person. Am I wrong here?

Plus, the hiding of the body.

gxm
09-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Here's one Texas Mist:

Man Stabs, Kills Female Co-Worker

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16720373/detail.html

Apparently, the killer had murdered his girlfriend in 1990:

"Two other township women lost their lives in domestic violence incidents in 1990 and 1993.

In December 1990, Paula May was reported kidnapped from Route 27 and Kingston Terrace. Her body was later found in Metuchen and her ex-boyfriend, Craig Armstead, was charged with the murder, according to police."

http://nbs.gmnews.com/News/2003/0821/Front_page/001.html

Apparently, Armstead had been rebuffed by the co-worker he killed:

"Harris told her family about Armstead's repeated advances.

"He was baking her cookies, cakes, candies...buying her gifts," said sister Stacey Young.

Harris' family says Armstead even tried to give her a palm pilot. She refused the gifts and reported the incidents to her human resources manager. "

http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?S=9319785

The above link also mentions that he had beaten his girlfriend to death with a hammer. IMO this guy was another murder waiting to happen and not a good example of "workplace" violence. Hopefully, they'll put him away for good this time.

maggieo
09-17-2009, 05:28 PM
ah yes. the upstate NY post-doc (? i think) murder last spring at the state park off-campus. i have often wondered why that got no news coverage. i felt it also had so many elements of interesting case, but no one picked up on it... do you happen to know if it's going to trial?

No, I know very little. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I feel like universities are motivated to hush up these things, or to minimize them. I don't know what kind of power they have over local LE and media, of course... but it is strange how little we've heard.

Last I heard (a long while ago), he was pleading not guilty??? Even though there was tons of evidence and no sign of anyone else being involved.

Liadan
09-17-2009, 05:29 PM
What about if Annie had said something innocuous to RC's gf and it had angered him to the point where he wanted confrontation. Or perhaps RC was protecting JH?

Kat
09-17-2009, 05:54 PM
This may be true, porkchop, but we must consider history. RC has a history of impulsive violence. Annie's history shows nothing of the sort.

To boot, I don't believe she would've achieved all she had and been put into a trusted position as she was if she'd demonstrated impulsive violence, or even a tendency toward it. Sure, people bow to intimidation all the time, but to a 4'11", 90-lb. Asian female? I wouldn't think so.

I missed the documentation that RC has a history of impulsive violence.

I did see a report (article) where a police report was obtained and that a 16 yr old girl made took a complaint out on him. (She has since spoken to the media).

The complaint was not followed through (they did go tell him to leave her alone or they would arrest him IIRC), even though when the complaint was described by the reporter it was implied that a rape had occurred and I don't understand how the state did not follow through on rape charges (even without the consent of the victim to bring forth charges)...perhaps CT has statutes that are different.

Then I've seen comments (from the school, which of course must be taken with a grain of salt because of who made them and why they would make them, such as CYA on behalf of school liability in this murder) that he didn't have anything on his work record that would show a predispostion to crime.

At any rate, I have only seen one previous complaint (no court cases of conviction for violence) and one speeding ticket.

Did I miss something huge here?

When we look at offenders many times they do have a history that is revealed once the "onion is peeled" (a phrase I like to use). I just wondered if I had missed it being reported.

Does a lack of documented violence make him any less a murderer? No. But it could go to motive, if we have someone here that doesn't really have an extensive history we so often see of certain behavoirs that many offenders exhibit before they get to the act of committing murder.

That's all I'm asking about.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 05:55 PM
If this was a spur-of-the-moment out of control rage thing why would he have an extra set clothing that he is thought to have changed into when he took of his blooding ones?

Lockers and showers are provided for animal techs because they are not allowed to wear street clothes into the facility. They generally are provided several sets of scrubs labelled with their name and rubber boots. They change when they come in in the morning and before going into the facility have to put on paper gowns, masks, bonnets, shoe covers, face mask and surgical gloves. Ours double gown, which means two sets of the disposable stuff.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 05:59 PM
Unfortunately, this is a common attitude for the "higher level" staff in the lab. We have postdocs (people with PhDs who don't have their own lab yet) who refuse to do basic science experiements because that's "a tech's job". We even have PIs (the boss) talk down to techs because they think they aren't as good as the PI because they "only" have a bachelors or masters degree. They think they are better than everyone who doesn't hold a PhD. People in labs need to realize that without the techs (of all classes and in all departments), the work couldn't get done.


Go Missy! It's true- science is full of special snowflakes.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 06:02 PM
I missed the documentation that RC has a history of impulsive violence.

Hi, Labrat. No my comments were not based on documentation, but on the report of the rape and comments from his neighbors about suspected domestic disputes. I was simply following the logic that he's been physically abusive to females in the past, which seems to reveal a pattern to me...

...whereas, there's no mention at all of Annie having a violent past or violent tendencies.

Purely speculating.

Kat
09-17-2009, 06:11 PM
Hi, Labrat. No my comments were not based on documentation, but on the report of the rape and comments from his neighbors about suspected domestic disputes. I was simply following the logic that he's been physically abusive to females in the past, which seems to reveal a pattern to me...

...whereas, there's no mention at all of Annie having a violent past or violent tendencies.

Purely speculating.

Thank you 'Ailina, I have tried to follow as closely as I can but I have to admit my life is a bit hectic these days and I don't always see all the reports.

Have a good day.:)

Waddles
09-17-2009, 06:12 PM
I just really don't think there is any connection to romantic or sexual feelings or to JH or anything other than the rage he felt against Annie considering what we know about his psychological make-up -I do think he snapped and although I think signs must have manifested and were overlooked in the past I don't think there has to have been any prior crime committed (apart from the rape) for this one to make sense. I also think "snapping" can clearly turn into murderous intentions and finishing it off and trying to get away with it-again because of his controlling and obsessive nature -which many people appear to be testifying to. Add all the fuel to the rage of who she was; a young pretty successful woman and that she probably defended herself-he was probably misogynistic too-and you get this...And maybe all alone in those isolated rooms of the lab he had once fantasised that a murder would go unnoticed... and then found himself in the action and did the unthinkable-I don't believe there is more to it -although there are admittedly many questions and many strange pieces missing to the puzzle I think we'll be seeing they're not the big huge pieces but that we already know the essence of it.

concentric
09-17-2009, 06:17 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.
-------------------

Excellent post, IMO. I also think it a combination of factors, not just one clear-cut motive. Here's my take on it: She's a superior to him. He resents that this petite woman is bossing him around, so to speak. He also could be the type of person who stereotypes any Asian woman as a sexual object and has a sick obsession to dominate them.

IMO, he probably was trying to rape her, but she fought him off. In a rage then, he strangled her to death.

MLE
09-17-2009, 06:19 PM
The only incident of workplace choking I can think of is back in the 1990s, when NBA basketball star Latrell Sprewell choked his coach, P.J. Carlesimo, during practice when Carlesimo was telling him how he needed to pass the ball. Sprewell attacked him and choked him on the ground until his teammates pulled him off the coach. A couple of years ago, a woman accused Sprewell of choking her during consentual sex, but he didn't go to jail for that or for the attack on Carlesimo, although the NBA did suspend him for around half the season for that one.

Truthful Lies
09-17-2009, 06:20 PM
This has been bothering me alllll day....I'm going to throw it out there...please don't pelt me....

What really, really bugs me is that he was a member of the Asian Awareness group in high school. I'm thinking fetish and because of social norms in Asian women (Annie was probably more polite than a lot of girls), he may have interpreted that in the wrong way and snapped when she rebuffed him.

He seems simple-minded (to me) but with a very dark side. I think a nationality fetish was involved..it's glaring to me. I could be wrong, but he doesn't look Asian! =p

Labrat
09-17-2009, 06:24 PM
[QUOTE=f_stills;4170623]http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/accused-annie-le-murderer-ray-clark/Story?id=8602492&page=2[/QUOTE

Quote:
Sources tell ABC News there were e-mails or text messages between Clark and Le regarding the cleanliness of the lab. Clark's job included cleaning the mice cages in the lab, and in his email to Le he complained that she had left the cages dirty, sources said.

I did some sleuthing today. I had posted earlier that I was a little perplexed that if he had concerns why he didn't go to his supervisor. I thought it a little puzzling that he had told her to come over immediately.

So I went and asked one of the room techs! Duh. I did confirm that my understanding was correct. Speak to the person if you are comfortable with it, or report it to your supervisor. multiple infractions- the supervisor handles it. I had been puzzled about why he was so involved.

So I asked the tech if there was any situation where he would call me up and tell me I had to meet him immediately about dirty cages. It turns out there is! I wasn't aware of this because it doesn't apply to me.

There are special cards you can put on the cages to let the tech know that you do not want them tampering with the cage- that you will take care of it yourself - you are required to put your contact number on these cards. The reasons for this are things such as medicated water bottles, special feed, recovery from surgery, pregnant mice, any case in which you do not want the mice to go through the regular changing schedule.

If the cages are dirty (ammonia build-up) flooded from a bad water bottle, out of food or water, or the mice appear to be in extreme physical distress, the animal technician is REQUIRED to call the investigator to come and correct the situation immediately as the health of the mice cannot be compromised. If the investigator can not be found or refuses to come, the technician can then correct the problem themself.

So it could very well be that he was not being overly controlling about the protocols, or using an excuse to get her over there.

I can not say that this was absolutely the case there- but the possibility that it could be the case clears some things up for me.

Waddles
09-17-2009, 06:24 PM
This has been bothering me alllll day....I'm going to throw it out there...please don't pelt me....

What really, really bugs me is that he was a member of the Asian Awareness group in high school. I'm thinking fetish and because of social norms in Asian women (Annie was probably more polite than a lot of girls), he may have interpreted that in the wrong way and snapped when she rebuffed him.

He seems simple-minded (to me) but with a very dark side. I think a nationality fetish was involved..it's glaring to me. I could be wrong, but he doesn't look Asian! =p

it was said he wasn't actually a member-a friend said he just jumped in the photo-in past threads

shoebox
09-17-2009, 06:24 PM
I doubt that it was Annie who instigated the violence. I think in a case where we have a petite young woman without a violent history attacked and killed by a larger man with a violent history, it is reasonable to assume that she was NOT the aggressor.

She may not be the physical agressor but she could have been the verbal agressor which escalated the meeting into physical violence. She's been made to look like a perfect person but remember she teased her friend for not having a butt even to the point of giving her undies with built in butt pads and would send a picture of her butt to the dean of admissions at Princeton after being turned down. It all seems in fun but shows she is capable of saying and doing things that some people may not take lightly. No matter what, RC lost it and is still responsible for his actions.

Let this be a lesson: treat everyone with respect and watch your words or it may come back to haunt you. No one deserves to die from workplace anger.

Waddles
09-17-2009, 06:26 PM
Thanks Labrat, interesting post

Labrat
09-17-2009, 06:27 PM
Hi, Labrat. No my comments were not based on documentation, but on the report of the rape and comments from his neighbors about suspected domestic disputes. I was simply following the logic that he's been physically abusive to females in the past, which seems to reveal a pattern to me...

...whereas, there's no mention at all of Annie having a violent past or violent tendencies.

Purely speculating.

Lol- that's not me that's KAT.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 06:27 PM
thank you labrat! That certainly clarifies a lot of things for me as well...

Kat
09-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Lol- that's not me that's KAT.

Shhh :wink: don't tell her heh

Labrat
09-17-2009, 06:30 PM
Well if the labcoat was the bloody clothing that they found then looking at him entering and leaving he would be wearing the same clothing which wouldn't raise any flags. So I guess that's not really what tipped them off.

No labcoats are allowed inside an animal facility.

MLE
09-17-2009, 06:30 PM
Asians aren't necessarily more polite. I had Canadian co-workers in Asia who got laughed at all the time in public because they were very overweight. I mean, it was non-stop. And good luck standing in line in Asia without men and women jumping in front of you left and right.

I don't think his dogs barking and crying is indicative of abuse. When pets are spoiled or miss their owner when he's gone, they'll cry too, especially pups.

If they don't find RC's semen with her body or clothing, I think the obsession motive is diminished.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 06:32 PM
No labcoats are allowed inside an animal facility.
Rat,
do you guys generally use central supply for your scrubs like we do in the hospital?

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 06:32 PM
I missed the documentation that RC has a history of impulsive violence.

I did see a report (article) where a police report was obtained and that a 16 yr old girl made took a complaint out on him. (She has since spoken to the media).

The complaint was not followed through (they did go tell him to leave her alone or they would arrest him IIRC), even though when the complaint was described by the reporter it was implied that a rape had occurred and I don't understand how the state did not follow through on rape charges (even without the consent of the victim to bring forth charges)...perhaps CT has statutes that are different.

Then I've seen comments (from the school, which of course must be taken with a grain of salt because of who made them and why they would make them, such as CYA on behalf of school liability in this murder) that he didn't have anything on his work record that would show a predispostion to crime.

At any rate, I have only seen one previous complaint (no court cases of conviction for violence) and one speeding ticket.

Did I miss something huge here?

When we look at offenders many times they do have a history that is revealed once the "onion is peeled" (a phrase I like to use). I just wondered if I had missed it being reported.

Does a lack of documented violence make him any less a murderer? No. But it could go to motive, if we have someone here that doesn't really have an extensive history we so often see of certain behavoirs that many offenders exhibit before they get to the act of committing murder.

That's all I'm asking about.

Hi Kat. You ask if a lack of documented violence makes him any less of a murderer. Look at his age, he is very young to have a long documented history...and do we know for sure he doesn't have sealed documents from adolescence, and honestly, we know very little about his childhood, adolescence, and work history. Look at Casey Anthony - no documented violence, but many wonderful friends who constantly made excuses for her because of being a young single mom. Some murders without history are due to on-the-spot drug rages such as crystal meth etc. Others due to greed such as insurance policy murders. But this guy did have some significant history imo

His high school girlfriend said 'rape' and didn't press charges out of fear. And even with that he still trashed her locker when they broke up. To me, that shows he has the potential for more violence. all just my opinion of course

Labrat
09-17-2009, 06:39 PM
Rat,
do you guys generally use central supply for your scrubs like we do in the hospital?

3 of the facilities I've worked in I don't know- I was in a research lab. This one no- the techs are given several sets of scrubs and launder them themselves. There is a washer and dryer in a room next to their break room. They all have their names written on them in black sharpie.
The facility previous to this- yes, central supply.

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 06:40 PM
it was said he wasn't actually a member-a friend said he just jumped in the photo-in past threads

I can see jumping into a picture of a foot ball team, a sports team etc, - but an Asian Club - don't you wonder why he would do such a thing?

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 06:40 PM
Shhh :wink: don't tell her heh

:iamashamed0005: whOOOPS! My deepest apologies, KAT!!!

(Really, I figured that would happen sooner or later. My eyes are going all wonky on me, following this case for the past 24+. Please pardon!)

concentric
09-17-2009, 06:41 PM
When it was reported that she had been stuffed in a wall, I pictured her folded up and shoved into a small space. I think this was not only "convenient" for him, but a way of saying: I have control over you and your little body. I see it in a way that he was "belittling" her by shoving her body in there. It was only later that I found out that she was in a 2-foot area.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Asians aren't necessarily more polite. I had Canadian co-workers in Asia who got laughed at all the time in public because they were very overweight. I mean, it was non-stop. And good luck standing in line in Asia without men and women jumping in front of you left and right.

I don't think his dogs barking and crying is indicative of abuse. When pets are spoiled or miss their owner when he's gone, they'll cry too, especially pups.

If they don't find RC's semen with her body or clothing, I think the obsession motive is diminished.

Women of Asian background raised here tend to be very much like any other American girl. Annie was born and raised here, wasn't she?

Kat
09-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Hi Kat. You ask if a lack of documented violence makes him any less of a murderer. Look at his age, he is very young to have a long documented history...and do we know for sure he doesn't have sealed documents from adolescence, and honestly, we know very little about his childhood, adolescence, and work history. Look at Casey Anthony - no documented violence, but many wonderful friends who constantly made excuses for her because of being a young single mom. Some murders without history are due to on-the-spot drug rages such as crystal meth etc. Others due to greed such as insurance policy murders. But this guy did have some significant history imo

His high school girlfriend said 'rape' and didn't press charges out of fear. And even with that he still trashed her locker when they broke up. To me, that shows he has the potential for more violence. all just my opinion of course

Very good points eyes. Thank you for taking the time to share them.

I answered my own question with no LOL.

I agree that if the report from his HS days is accurate then it does show a disposition to violence. IMHO.

I also think that there may be other incidents or issues that will be brought to light about this offender that will have us all going a-hah.

But then again there might not be. I will have to wait and see, given that he is fairly young.

OT: Eyes, you and I have posted along side each other on many cases and when we objectively look at most offenders (once we get past the atrocious crimes) we do see a history. I'm curious to see where this goes. Because at first blush and at first examination he's not fitting into any pigeon holes we have...(Personality disorders...etc, I know that you know what I mean by that :))

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 06:44 PM
When it was reported that he had stuffed her in a wall, I pictured her folded up and shoved into a small space. I think this was not only "convenient" for him, but a way of saying: I have control over you and your little body. I see it in a way that he was "belittling" her by shoving her body in there. It was only later that I found out that she was in a 2 foot area.

Did I read it was 2 x 2 somewhere??

Kat
09-17-2009, 06:46 PM
:iamashamed0005: whOOOPS! My deepest apologies, KAT!!!

(Really, I figured that would happen sooner or later. My eyes are going all wonky on me, following this case for the past 24+. Please pardon!)

LOL it's all good 'Ailina, I've been called a lot of things labrat is a compliment given the tone of labrat's posts :)

Thanks for the giggle today.

MLE
09-17-2009, 06:47 PM
Women of Asian background raised here tend to be very much like any other American girl. Annie was born and raised here, wasn't she?

I agree with you 100%, but another poster said Annie would've been more polite because of Asian social norms, which I don't necessarily agree with at all.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 06:54 PM
I agree with you 100%, but another poster said Annie would've been more polite because of Asian social norms, which I don't necessarily agree with at all.

Yeah, I think the "trait" (if you want to call it that) of Asian politeness we're talking about isn't strong enough to support speculation. It's a stereotype. I've known as many forward, outspoken, strong-willed Asians as I have polite, reserved ones. Generation #, cultural assimilation, and individual family parenting styles are HUGE factors. Also, where in the nation they live. I don't think it's safe to assume Asians are (fill in the blank) anymore.

concentric
09-17-2009, 06:58 PM
Asians aren't necessarily more polite. I had Canadian co-workers in Asia who got laughed at all the time in public because they were very overweight. I mean, it was non-stop. And good luck standing in line in Asia without men and women jumping in front of you left and right.

I don't think his dogs barking and crying is indicative of abuse. When pets are spoiled or miss their owner when he's gone, they'll cry too, especially pups.

If they don't find RC's semen with her body or clothing, I think the obsession motive is diminished.

If he tried to rape her but she fought him off and he ended up strangling her--maybe at that point, shocked at what happened, he ended the attack, and it was pointless to him. Why?

Could be any or one thing:

Maybe he did realize he "went overboard" and it was over.
He didn't want to get caught.
She wasn't alive to see him.
He wasn't doing necromania (unlike BTK, for instance).

Could be any number of reasons.

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 07:05 PM
Before I start I would like to say that I'm not saying Annie deserved to die, this is just what I think may have happened.

In my life I had many jobs and I have seen workplace violence at just about every one of them. I have even seen a few that started as a heated argument between a man and woman then turned physical. In every one of those it was the woman that initiated the violence.

So maybe he texted Annie to meet about protocals and she was tired of his constant nagging. So when she got to the lab they started arguing. In the course of their arguing she lost control of her temper and either pushed or slapped him. That caused him to completely loss it and he strangles her. When he calms down he relizes what he did and hides the body then changes into his workout clothes and hides his clothes.

Again I'm not saying she deserved this but alot of people have rage issues. Some can be set of by trying to argue with somebody and not being heard. In the case of Clark I think he is like other people I know, you can yell and scream at him all day but as soon as you push him or touch him durring an arguement or if they are upset they are liable to fly into a rage.

Hi porkchop...I'm going to pretend that Annie has a long history of abusing mice. Let's say in high school she was written up continuously for mouse mistreatment. This mistreatment extended into her undergrad years where she, once again, had altercations with animal people due to her mistreatment. Let's say she wasn't accepted at Princeton due to her history of mouse abuse and lo and behold, it continues during her first year at Yale, where she was once again confronted about her treatment of mice. Let's just say Clark has her profiled as a 'mouse' abuser...and decides to murder her to save the mice on Planet Earth, or just to make a statement about his passion for animals. Taking this made-up scenario - in my opinion that makes him even sicker than I once thought. jmo

IMO If Annie didn't give Clark the attention he demanded - it was because she had been working in the lab 10-13 hour days due to her wedding..if anything, one would think Clark would show some compassion and ask her how HE could help her (annie) during such a stressful time. jmo

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 07:15 PM
If he tried to rape her but she fought him off and he ended up strangling her--maybe at that point, shocked at what happened, he ended the attack, and it was pointless to him. Why?

Could be any or one thing:

Maybe he did realize he "went overboard" and it was over.
He didn't want to get caught.
She wasn't alive to see him.
He wasn't doing necromania (unlike BTK, for instance).

those reasons, just off the top of my head

No attempted rape charge. Charges can always be added.

lawlady84
09-17-2009, 07:18 PM
I'm still not sold on him being an animal rights activist. If he loved mice so much to kill her for allegedly mishandling them, shouldn't he be working in an animal shelter rather than being paid by an organization that performs medical experiments on animals?

That's like being a vegetarian who just happens to eat meat.

concentric
09-17-2009, 07:20 PM
lawlady -

ain't that the truth...:waitasec:

maggieo
09-17-2009, 07:21 PM
Hi porkchop...I'm going to pretend that Annie has a long history of abusing mice. Let's say in high school she was written up continuously for mouse mistreatment. This mistreatment extended into her undergrad years where she, once again, had altercations with animal people due to her mistreatment. Let's say she wasn't accepted at Princeton due to her history of mouse abuse and lo and behold, it continues during her first year at Yale, where she was once again confronted about her treatment of mice. Let's just say Clark has her profiled as a 'mouse' abuser...and decides to murder her to save the mice on Planet Earth, or just to make a statement about his passion for animals. Taking this made-up scenario - in my opinion that makes him even sicker than I once thought. jmo

IMO If Annie didn't give Clark the attention he demanded - it was because she had been working in the lab 10-13 hour days due to her wedding..if anything, one would think Clark would show some compassion and ask her how HE could help her (annie) during such a stressful time. jmo

This is what gets me: we can talk all day about RC being pushed to his limits or whatever, but what kind of 190-pound guy hits a 95-pound, female coworker... let alone kills one? A very, very disturbed one -- way beyond OCD. None of the "just workplace violence" stuff quite does it for me. She didn't have THAT much power over him. I've known lots of hot heads, I have worked and currently do work for one, but never, ever have I seen any of them so much as shove another person. Can't even imagine it.

I just don't see it.

An argument over mice treatment may have been the immediate triggering incident, but I would bet there's much, much more going on that we haven't been clued into yet.

Track292008
09-17-2009, 07:28 PM
snipped: This is what gets me: we can talk all day about RC being pushed to his limits or whatever, but what kind of 190-pound guy hits a 95-pound, female coworker... let alone kills one?

So, he weighs 190 lbs? Do we know how tall he is? Also, is he still in the New Haven PD jail or has he been moved to, e.g., a county or state facility in Connecticut?
TIA.

masscph
09-17-2009, 07:32 PM
snipped:

So, he weighs 190 lbs? Do we know how tall he is? Also, is he still in the New Haven PD jail or has he been moved to, e.g., a county or state facility in Connecticut?
TIA.

He has been moved, taken from another thread:

By the afternoon, Clark was moved to the MacDougal-Walker Correctional Institution, a massive prison in South Suffield, Conn., reserved for 2,100 inmates who are considered to be high or maximum security risks.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-case-police-arrest-ray-clark-murder/story?id=8598755

concentric
09-17-2009, 07:33 PM
I would bet there's much, much more going on that we haven't been clued into yet.

Some of us have been speculating what that may be. What do you think?

maggieo
09-17-2009, 07:36 PM
snipped:

So, he weighs 190 lbs? Do we know how tall he is? Also, is he still in the New Haven PD jail or has he been moved to, e.g., a county or state facility in Connecticut?
TIA.

According to the court documents I read, he's 5'9". (Sorry, can't find the link for that...)

I don't know where he is at the moment...

Track292008
09-17-2009, 07:36 PM
He has been moved, taken from another thread:

Thank you, Masscph! I had a hunch they wouldn't leave him long in the NHPD jail....

-Track

P.S. - And thank you, maggieo, for providing his height (5'9").

KivaSupporter
09-17-2009, 07:45 PM
See #192 Raymond Clark III

Sources said authorities have linked DNA from the 5-foot-9, 190-pound Clark, who worked in the same Yale building as Le, to the murder.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/09/17/2009-09-17_lab_tech_raymond_clark_under_arrest_in_the_murd er_of_yale_student_annie_le.html

jjenny
09-17-2009, 07:52 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.
Your post reminded me of a case where a man killed a 15 year old boy for walking on his lawn. The man has been convicted and has committed suicide recently while in prison.

Emily Booth
09-17-2009, 08:07 PM
Women of Asian background raised here tend to be very much like any other American girl. Annie was born and raised here, wasn't she?

I think Annie was born and raised here (in northern CA) but I'm not sure if her mother was? Her mother may be 1st generation. Annie, for some reason, was raised by her aunt and uncle, and I'm not sure if they were born here. I'd have to do more reading.

I think it depends on which generation you are? The closer you are to the 1st generation, the more traditional. By the 3rd generation, you are acculterated and basically acting like any other American teenager . :woohoo:

Chanler
09-17-2009, 08:08 PM
Hi porkchop...I'm going to pretend that Annie has a long history of abusing mice. Let's say in high school she was written up continuously for mouse mistreatment. This mistreatment extended into her undergrad years where she, once again, had altercations with animal people due to her mistreatment. Let's say she wasn't accepted at Princeton due to her history of mouse abuse and lo and behold, it continues during her first year at Yale, where she was once again confronted about her treatment of mice. Let's just say Clark has her profiled as a 'mouse' abuser...and decides to murder her to save the mice on Planet Earth, or just to make a statement about his passion for animals. Taking this made-up scenario - in my opinion that makes him even sicker than I once thought. jmo

IMO If Annie didn't give Clark the attention he demanded - it was because she had been working in the lab 10-13 hour days due to her wedding..if anything, one would think Clark would show some compassion and ask her how HE could help her (annie) during such a stressful time. jmo

To me, the mouse situation, whatever it was, wasn't much different than dorm situations or what happens in small art department offices. People are working under deadlines; people are being blamed or simply spoken to for things they didn't do; people see responsibilities differently. From the start of this topic, I have been reminded again and again of visiting my girlfriend at MIT graduate school; there were recurring complaints, tiny turf skirmishes, conflicting expectations about clean-up responsibilities and space hogging. The difference, as some one noted earlier, is that these never really ended in even volatile arguments, much less death by strangulation.

And who's taking care of the mice now?

missyjane77
09-17-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm sure he wasn't the only animal tech for that building. They had to have had someone else come and take over. As for Annie, another researcher or the PI is probably doing whatever is necessary to care for the mice on the research end.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm sure he wasn't the only animal tech for that building. They had to have had someone else come and take over. As for Annie, another researcher or the PI is probably doing whatever is necessary to care for the mice on the research end.

Yes, this would have been settled very quickly. I bet things are a little rough, though since they lost 4 techs total.

Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 09:09 PM
There does appear to be something amiss about the RC/JH relationship. I know that there are men and women who infer to their significant other that someone is flirting with them or even fully involved with them romantically and/or sexually, and not only is it entirely a fabrication, the accused would be oblivious to any reason he/she would be the topic of the couple's conversation. Apparently, the provoking of jealousy and insecurity and the ensuing argument feeds the codependency on which the couple's relationship is based. The root issue, of course, is much deeper and more twisted than romance or affection. Perhaps, RC himself was "leaking" the stories of the lab romance(s) that so inflamed JH. If there was a secret (even to Annie!) romance with her, it would have taken a humiliatingly direct hit when Annie announced plans to marry her Mr. Wonderful, Mr. Right and been very grating to a psychopathic personality.

Wow! This is exactly what I've been thinking all along. Not that I'd rule out the latter, but this logic is what seems most likely, imo. Considering Annie's personality, which has been described in nothing but positive light by numerous acquaintances, and considering her intelligence, I just can't fathom that she'd "go after him" - more like the other way around. I'll bet he was going home trying to make his girlfriend jealous...or maybe he was ready to combust from harboring all these feelings inside that he swung the story totally in his favor and his (more than likely) naieve girlfriend bought it.

I ask this question again...Does anyone know if RC & JH were officially engaged, meaning ring & everything?

Also, anybody have info regarding his parents? Are they still together?

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 09:10 PM
To me, the mouse situation, whatever it was, wasn't much different than dorm situations or what happens in small art department offices. People are working under deadlines; people are being blamed or simply spoken to for things they didn't do; people see responsibilities differently. From the start of this topic, I have been reminded again and again of visiting my girlfriend at MIT graduate school; there were recurring complaints, tiny turf skirmishes, conflicting expectations about clean-up responsibilities and space hogging. The difference, as some one noted earlier, is that these never really ended in even volatile arguments, much less death by strangulation.

And who's taking care of the mice now?

Hi Chanler - Taking care of cages, taking on the responsibility of his job as animal tech was a job he was being paid for. Are you saying your friend at MIT had a paying job or were the skirmishes between roomies?

If Clark had OCD issues, power and control issues, rarely is this manifested in just one relationship...it's usually a person's pattern of relating to others. If we hear from the other PhD students that he exhibited inappropriate expectations regarding his animals, I will then direct my anger toward Yale for not addressing the problem earlier.

Dallasdon
09-17-2009, 09:10 PM
Have you ever met that person who is obsessive over their little piece of the universe? It could be the parking lot attendant who has possession of your car, the security guard that you have to get past, the person behind the window at the tow pound? People sometime obsess over that one place where they wield power. It doesn't matter if you're a PhD or wearing a 5 thousand dollar Armani suit -- this person has control over your life for these few minutes. I remember an office manager at a newsroom I worked in. She would obsessively separate the pens, pencils, pape rclips into their containers each morning. It got to the point where everyone would purposely mess things up just to watch her reflexively go back and straighten out the mess. One day I saw here separating condiment packets that had accumulated from takeout food orders. Ketchup here, duck sauce here, etc. I think this is the type of person he was -- but to a far more extreme. She crossed a line that shattered his notion of king of his universe.

I'll tell you an example of obsessive behavior over their little piece of the universe- and we all deal with it every day without thinking about it.

Road rage.

That lane, parking spot, etc. is THEIRS.

And it can (and does) lead to extreme violence.

missyjane77
09-17-2009, 09:14 PM
Does anyone know if RC & JH were officially engaged, meaning ring & everything?

You don't necessarily have to have a ring to be "officially" engaged.

Harmony2
09-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Rat,
do you guys generally use central supply for your scrubs like we do in the hospital?

Here is a photo where he is wearing scrubs but I am not sure when or where it was taken...


http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/09/16/image5314849.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/16/crimesider/photoessay5314972_1_16_photo.shtml

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Wow! This is exactly what I've been thinking all along. Not that I'd rule out the latter, but this logic is what seems most likely, imo. Considering Annie's personality, which has been described in nothing but positive light by numerous acquaintances, and considering her intelligence, I just can't fathom that she'd "go after him" - more like the other way around. I'll bet he was going hom trying to make his girlfriend jealous...or maybe he was ready to combust from harboring all these feelings inside that he swung the story totally in his favor and his (more than likely) naieve girlfriend bought it.

I ask this question again...Does anyone know if RC & JH were officially engaged, meaning ring & everything?

Also, anybody have info regarding his parents? Are they still together?

Way back when, in the beginning of this case, we said if there was any kind of relationship between Annie and Clark, it was in his fantasies. I have no doubt that's the case. Regarding his developmental years, all I am going on right now is the information by his high school girlfriend that she was raped; she dropped the charges due to fear of retaliation. In the end, Clark did trash her locker when the relationship ended. (actualy, that's a great deal of info) I have found nothing more than that to go on...there's got to be more.

Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 09:24 PM
You don't necessarily have to have a ring to be "officially" engaged.

Agreed...however, she used her MySpace as a Wedding site...nowhere in the caches that I pulled up could I find mention or pic of a ring...If she was going to broadcast to the extreme that they were getting married, set a date, etc, you'd think she'd "demand" a ring to back everything up. idk, I know I wouldn't consider myself engaged without a ring unless I was stranded on a desert island with only 1 man and he happened to ask me to marry him so we could multiply & inhabit the earth. Please laugh...

panthera
09-17-2009, 09:28 PM
I'd like to know if he had issues with other students, i.e. Annie's peers, or was it isolated to Annie? I find it hard to believe that after working there for four years he suddenly had problems with the students treatment of the lab animals. I think he may have pretended to care about the lab animals, but all the time highly resented the fact that he was a high school grad surrounded by doctoral students, and Annie being his same age. He may have had a special resentment to Annie, being that he may have felt he should be the one in control of her. In addition his own wedding was scheduled for sometime late in 2011, while her wedding was going to be at a prestigous Long Island club, and it's been mentioned she was recently talking about her wedding, etc. Her wedding could've further reinforced the difference between his status in life and Annie's. MOO

MLE
09-17-2009, 09:29 PM
Here is a photo where he is wearing scrubs but I am not sure when or where it was taken...


http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/09/16/image5314849.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/16/crimesider/photoessay5314972_1_16_photo.shtml

His tattoos look kind of sissy. But he has some big biceps. I'm 6'2" 185 lbs. and I wouldn't want to fight him. Annie never really had a chance. What a bully. I hope they eventually put him in the general population where he can get to box someone in his own weight class.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 09:30 PM
Here is a photo where he is wearing scrubs but I am not sure when or where it was taken...


http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/09/16/image5314849.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/16/crimesider/photoessay5314972_1_16_photo.shtml
thanks Harmony! Yes, I had noticed the blue scrubs and wondered if it was normal to have central supply (place where you get the scrubs when you come in and drop them off when you are done). This is how we do it in the hospital. You leave your street clothes in the locker. I had just wondered if it weren't scrubs shoved up in the ceiling tile... and he came out of the fire drill wearing his civies... would have shown different change of clothes and put up the red flag... just thoughts....

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 09:32 PM
I'd like to know if he had issues with other students, i.e. Annie's peers, or was it isolated to Annie? I find it hard to believe that after working there for four years he suddenly had problems with the students treatment of the lab animals. I think he may have pretended to care about the lab animals, but all the time highly resented the fact that he was a high school grad surrounded by doctoral students, and Annie being his same age. He may have had a special resentment to Annie, being that he may have felt he should be the one in control of her. In addition his own wedding was scheduled for sometime late in 2011, while her wedding was going to be at a prestigous Long Island club. MOO

Bolded by me

I completely agree...if there's not a pattern of issues with other students - I have to ask: WHY ANNIE?

static
09-17-2009, 09:50 PM
JMO Annie was a brilliant, beautiful, young woman with a bright future. I really am starting to think that in his mind (noting the myspace page where he repeated his interest in porn) women were put on earth to serve him, or something to that effect. Seems that people that get caught up in porn have a completely distorted view of gender roles. I think that in his mind, Annie should have been following his directions. The fact that she was academically advanced may have been fuel to his fire. He may have harbored that resentment and had fantasies to dominate her. Sorry if anyone posted anything similar to this.

Dallasdon
09-17-2009, 09:55 PM
I'd like to know if he had issues with other students, i.e. Annie's peers, or was it isolated to Annie? I find it hard to believe that after working there for four years he suddenly had problems with the students treatment of the lab animals. I think he may have pretended to care about the lab animals, but all the time highly resented the fact that he was a high school grad surrounded by doctoral students, and Annie being his same age. He may have had a special resentment to Annie, being that he may have felt he should be the one in control of her. In addition his own wedding was scheduled for sometime late in 2011, while her wedding was going to be at a prestigous Long Island club, and it's been mentioned she was recently talking about her wedding, etc. Her wedding could've further reinforced the difference between his status in life and Annie's. MOO

I REALLY like your "wedding was a trigger" theory.

The whole reason Clark delayed the wedding for so long was to save money, and as you stated, Annie's elaborate wedding plans, always talking about it, etc. probably played at least a part in this.

panthera
09-17-2009, 10:05 PM
Bolded by me

I completely agree...if there's not a pattern of issues with other students - I have to ask: WHY ANNIE?
Exactly! If this is just about a disagreement over the treatment of lab animals, I can't believe everybody else in those four years met up to his "standards". I think there's a lot more to it than that. MOO

panthera
09-17-2009, 10:06 PM
JMO Annie was a brilliant, beautiful, young woman with a bright future. I really am starting to think that in his mind (noting the myspace page where he repeated his interest in porn) women were put on earth to serve him, or something to that effect. Seems that people that get caught up in porn have a completely distorted view of gender roles. I think that in his mind, Annie should have been following his directions. The fact that she was academically advanced may have been fuel to his fire. He may have harbored that resentment and had fantasies to dominate her. Sorry if anyone posted anything similar to this.
Don't apologize ~ this is for theories! I agree with you, btw! MOO

Chanler
09-17-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm sure he wasn't the only animal tech for that building. They had to have had someone else come and take over. As for Annie, another researcher or the PI is probably doing whatever is necessary to care for the mice on the research end.

Thanks, MissyJane, you're thoughtful; but, to be truthful, I wasn't worried about the mice at all.

Columbo
09-17-2009, 10:22 PM
Here is a photo where he is wearing scrubs but I am not sure when or where it was taken...


http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/09/16/image5314849.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/16/crimesider/photoessay5314972_1_16_photo.shtml

EWWWwwww. He looks creepy. Scary.

Chanler
09-17-2009, 10:29 PM
Hi Chanler - Taking care of cages, taking on the responsibility of his job as animal tech was a job he was being paid for. Are you saying your friend at MIT had a paying job or were the skirmishes between roomies?

If Clark had OCD issues, power and control issues, rarely is this manifested in just one relationship...it's usually a person's pattern of relating to others. If we hear from the other PhD students that he exhibited inappropriate expectations regarding his animals, I will then direct my anger toward Yale for not addressing the problem earlier.

Hi, Eyes4crime, my girlfriend did her graduate work at MIT; she did her work in architecture, but some of the issues (which, by the way, were not with her) are the same. While I was visiting on weekends, I heard about small problems, mostly just kvetching, not arguments, in the studios, and in biology labs and in the computer department. (Considering the time that people spent, literally lived in these places and people's different expectations, I was impressed by how well everyone got along.)

It's possible that Clark didn't accept the authority or status of Annie Le, partly because of her size, gender, and perhaps her ethnicity. As a very bright third year student with strong work motivation, she might have not displayed the respect he imagined that he deserved.

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 10:31 PM
What a bully. I hope they eventually put him in the general population where he can get to box someone in his own weight class.

OMG - just spit out my wine on the screen.

passionflower
09-17-2009, 10:35 PM
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence" but would not say what triggered the attack.

panthera
09-17-2009, 10:38 PM
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence" but would not say what triggered the attack.
And with that I don't believe he fantasized about a relationship with her. It's just the opposite, imo, he disliked and resented her ~ on several levels. MOO

passionflower
09-17-2009, 10:39 PM
His tattoos look kind of sissy. But he has some big biceps. I'm 6'2" 185 lbs. and I wouldn't want to fight him. Annie never really had a chance. What a bully. I hope they eventually put him in the general population where he can get to box someone in his own weight class.

The tattoos are in an odd spot to me.....usually aren't they up higher for the muscles?.....both the same........bondage? high bracelets? one TV guy called them herringbone look????

passionflower
09-17-2009, 10:41 PM
And with that I don't believe he fantasized about a relationship with her. It's just the opposite, imo, he disliked and resented her ~ on several levels. MOO

yes, I think it was a hate thing also, now........she rubbed him the wrong way maybe for a while and it just broke out that day.
Maybe he has a problem with all women in authority????

Very Interesting
09-17-2009, 10:42 PM
Earlier today, I had said at work not anyone was believing the WorkPlace Violence scenario at all.

After I had seen some other people at my job looking at CNN about it, and they were not believing it either.
Many saying a person does not murder a girl at the workplace over a mouse cage, no way at all.

A few women said the girl was doing him, we are women we know, she was just having alittle fun before her marriage, though was doing the wrong guy.

My opinion from start has been illicit affair caused the murder.

I watched Nancy Grace tonight and it just made me think more, something just isn’t right about all of it.

Definitely from watching this tonight, I have impression that Yale is keeping a lot of things close to its vest about things that happened. Do not really understand how they have authority to do this though?

It also sounds alittle like the police were trying to get the suspect to incriminate himself before he got a lawyer, and they are little angry he did this.

The guy doesn’t really seem to have a history of violence (just the one incident) was social, he worked at Yale almost five years with no problems??

Something really doesn’t smell right in Yale and New Haven about all of this. Though I guess we wont know until trial begins, and they start releasing all the details.

Opinion: I am still thinking not just a WorkPlace Violence situation, and is a lot that hasn’t been said or revealed yet. Still think they were having illicit affair and that is what triggered it. Don’t know how many times I have heard,” I cant believe she would do that, or I cant believe he would do that. They just are not that way” (when it comes to affairs). And I too dont think he murdered her because of a mouse cage, there was alot more to it

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 10:49 PM
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence" but would not say what triggered the attack.

So that's where the category 'work place violence' came from! His defense attorney? So murdering a young, brilliant, caring, loving, woman, folding her in half, and stuffing her behind a wall is nothing more than work place violence? What a minimization of what happened to beautiful Annie - doesn't surprise me at all to hear who it came from. Are we supposed to get the picture in our heads that some man threw his papers in the air out of frustration? Sorry, but I feel furious about the category...work place violence. women everywhere should be furious mho :furious:

jjenny
09-17-2009, 10:49 PM
There is no evidence whatsoever the two ever had any kind of romantic relationship. And I am pretty sure police looked into it, yet they say workplace violence.
My guess is she barely knew the guy, and didn't think about him twice.

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 10:50 PM
I'd like to know what you all think...

Aside from remorse, which I would put in a different category, would you say killing Annie had a traumatic effect on Clark, too?

That is to say, do you think the experience was psychologically shocking for him? In a negative way? In a pleasurable way? Both?

Just curious.

ArkansasMom
09-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Does anyone know what she did over the summer - was she at the university? I find the timing of this within just days of fall semester having started a little curious.

jjenny
09-17-2009, 10:52 PM
So that's where the category 'work place violence' came from! His defense attorney? So murdering a young, brilliant, caring, loving, woman, folding her in half, and stuffing her behind a wall is nothing more than work place violence? What a minimization of what happened to beautiful Annie - doesn't surprise me at all to hear who it came from. Are we supposed to get the picture in our heads that some man threw his papers in the air out of frustration? Sorry, but I feel furious about the category...work place violence. women everywhere should be furious mho :furious:

Workplace violence term came from the police chief. Why exactly should anybody be furious about that? Police described it that way.

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 10:53 PM
you know, I am just going to go out on a limb and say this: I think he is a guy with control issues that snapped. The more I am researching about workplace violence it is completely fitting this picture for me.

And I think that is also what is the hardest to swallow. That an otherwise "normal" guy with control issues could go into such a blind rage over such small stuff... but it happens every day with road rage. I am seriously leaning toward the theory that he went from 0-100 in a split second over something stupid that they were arguing about.

I posted a statistic on the workplace violence thread... did you know that workplace violence is the number four killer of people while at work? Is that nuts or what?

What is different about THIS case (if it is indeed workplace violence) is that usually cases of workplace violence are posted in the "crimes in the news" section! They are not to be found in the "missing" section of websleuths! Usually they are some disgruntled, angry person hell bent on controlling a situation that kills someone in front of everyone else... they then kill themselves or are quickly caught. In this case... he was in an isolated room in a basement of a lab building... when he had figured out what he had done and there was no one to see the crime his self preservation kicked in so he hid the evidence.

The girl was missing... so the unfolding of the case... well your mind just doesn't start going down the workplace violence road ya know?

Just my thoughts and sorry for the long rambling post...