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SeriouslySearching
09-16-2009, 03:08 PM
Possible motives for murder include jealousy, rage, arguments over the mice, sexual assault or other reasons. Please discuss motives here:

Roy23
09-16-2009, 03:13 PM
Possible motives for murder include jealousy, rage, arguments over the mice, sexual assault or other reasons. Please discuss motives here:

This is the million dollar question, here. I believe that sexual frustration is probably the root cause of him murdering but I believe he was angry with her for something that probably occured that day in the Lab.

KR2tonenow
09-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Quote from Connecticut News:

>snip
In May, Clark’s girlfriend wrote on her MySpace page about a rumor that her boyfriend, whom she calls Ray, was cheating on her with the girl who works at the Yale lab.>snip

Clark's in love with Le, according to Clark's girlfriend they were having an affair. Clark became obessive because he could not have Le. Anger provoked the strangulation of Le which is considered a personal act.

Misfitdolly
09-16-2009, 03:23 PM
I can't help but think of the Texas cadet murder as someone mentioned in a previous thread. Maybe RC and Annie did have a fling or a one night stand and JH had something to do with her murder due to jealousy, or she put Ray up to it to "cleanse" their relationship.

Roy23
09-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Don't take offense but I think suggesting that JH is involved in this death is quite a shame based on the facts that we do know.

Kat
09-16-2009, 03:31 PM
As of early this afternoon, I don't see a motive yet. JMHO. I'm eager to hear what the motive was though.

Misfitdolly
09-16-2009, 03:33 PM
I think so too as she is innocent at this point and there is nothing released at this point to suggest she was involved but this thread is for throwing around possible motives and she did have a myspace post that indicated there was a rumor of RC having an affair with someone in the lab.

Celt1997
09-16-2009, 03:43 PM
Don't take offense but I think suggesting that JH is involved in this death is quite a shame based on the facts that we do know.

I won't take offense, but I also don't see the harm in looking into theories that do include JH. We do know a little bit about her from her MySpace page and there are some things she said that could possibly link her to this somehow. Nothing is concrete at this stage in the case, and I'll entertain all ideas right now.

KR2tonenow
09-16-2009, 03:43 PM
and from Fox news article today:

>snip
Among the possible motives detectives are mulling over is Clark's reported criticism of Le for her handling of the lab mice the two worked with, according to the New York Daily News.
Citing e-mails the pair reportedly exchanged, the Daily News said Clark had accused Le of failing to follow protocol when handling the mice, and she'd promised to do better.>snip

This may be a stretch.

But, I do think that there were many LONG hours spent in this lab with NO survelliance, who knows what happens...a secret love connection gone sour.

FishingFunnyFrog
09-16-2009, 03:45 PM
The emails exchanges between Ray and Annie seem interesting...Ray was accusing Annie of not following protocol with the lab mice. The murder seems more sexual to me though. Perhaps Ray was infatuated with Annie and used the lab mice protocol thing as a reason to contact Annie via email and have conversations with her? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,550740,00.html

reeseeva
09-16-2009, 03:46 PM
Quote from Connecticut News:

>snip
In May, Clark’s girlfriend wrote on her MySpace page about a rumor that her boyfriend, whom she calls Ray, was cheating on her with the girl who works at the Yale lab.>snip

Clark's in love with Le, according to Clark's girlfriend they were having an affair. Clark became obessive because he could not have Le. Anger provoked the strangulation of Le which is considered a personal act.

The article says "In May,......I believe it was May, 2008? Anyone else remember?

bogeygal
09-16-2009, 03:47 PM
LE and the coroner have not yet released whether or not Annie was raped or sexually assaulted. If so, that would change my theories.

I'm between the prep being obsessed with her, or that Annie may have witnessed him do something bad at the lab and was going to report him.

FishingFunnyFrog
09-16-2009, 03:52 PM
It seems strange that RC would have the guts to call out Annie on protocol issues. Annie was a brilliant scholar, but is it correct that Ray didn't even go to college?

Roy23
09-16-2009, 03:55 PM
I won't take offense, but I also don't see the harm in looking into theories that do include JH. We do know a little bit about her from her MySpace page and there are some things she said that could possibly link her to this somehow. Nothing is concrete at this stage in the case, and I'll entertain all ideas right now.

Fair Enough.

For me she is going to be a victim as well until we hear something that remotely could implicate her. Even if Raymond did have an affair, nothing indicates that it was with Annie. A whole lot of girls work in the Lab and we have heard of nothing that indicates that Annie had an affair. And her friends have been on the news everyday.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 03:55 PM
On the general thread, soon to be closed, there was ongoing discussion regarding Annie's ethnicity and it's possible meaning to the killer and how it might be related to motive.

In light of those discussions, I'm bringing the following statistics here for the review of those interested:

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4123

***************************************

Yale 1st year class - Student Body

6% In-state students
94% Out-of-state students
50% Women
50% Men
1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
14% Asian/Pacific Islander
9% Black/Non-Hispanic
9% Hispanic
35% White/Non-Hispanic
10% Non-Resident Alien
22% Race/ethnicity unreported
97% in top 10th of graduating class
100% in top quarter of graduating class

********************************************

The above is undergrad info, readily available from the College Board site. I didn't take time to research the make up of the grad program or the medical schools - the info is probably readily available. (You can also look at the listing of grad student names working in the various biomed labs - and recognize many names as Asian - I'd assume the ratios are similar to undergrad in the grad program).

Yale Graduate school is a highly international school. Many foreign students. Best & brightest in their fields from around the world. Walking around campus for just four blocks or so, it would not be strange at all to overhead conversations in 5 languages. Expecially in a library plaza on a nice sunny day.

Finally, I would add that although the College Board stats report 14% Asian in the entering class at Yale, there is a growing tendency to decline to report ethnicity (22% unreported) on applications and forms at highly selective colleges. The actual % of Asians on Yale campus could likely climb far above 14% if all applicants reported their ethnicity.

IMO, this is just something to consider as you weigh the significance of Annie's ethnicity relative to this crime: There's many students of Asian ethnicity on the Yale campus, and it's been that way a long time.

Roy23
09-16-2009, 04:01 PM
On the general thread, soon to be closed, there was ongoing discussion regarding Annie's ethnicity and it's possible meaning to the killer and how it might be related to motive.

In light of those discussions, I'm bringing the following statistics here for the review of those interested:

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4123

***************************************

Yale 1st year class - Student Body

6% In-state students
94% Out-of-state students
50% Women
50% Men
1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
14% Asian/Pacific Islander
9% Black/Non-Hispanic
9% Hispanic
35% White/Non-Hispanic
10% Non-Resident Alien
22% Race/ethnicity unreported
97% in top 10th of graduating class
100% in top quarter of graduating class

********************************************

The above is undergrad info, readily available from the College Board site. I didn't take time to research the make up of the grad program or the medical schools - the info is probably readily available. (You can also look at the listing of grad student names working in the various biomed labs - and recognize many names as Asian - I'd assume the ratios are similar to undergrad in the grad program).

Yale Graduate school is a highly international school. Many foreign students. Best & brightest in their fields from around the world. Walking around campus for just four blocks or so, it would not be strange at all to overhead conversations in 5 languages. Expecially in a library plaza on a nice sunny day.

Finally, I would add that although the College Board stats report 14% Asian in the entering class at Yale, there is a growing tendency to decline to report ethnicity (22% unreported) on applications and forms at highly selective colleges. The actual % of Asians on Yale campus could likely climb far above 14% if all applicants reported their ethnicity.

IMO, this is just something to consider as you weigh the significance of Annie's ethnicity relative to this crime: There's many students of Asian ethnicity on the Yale campus, and it's been that way a long time.



Great post. I think I know what you are inferring but not sure. Can I counter with maybe RC wanted to work at Yale for that very reason?

Actually, no way most likely. Great post.

bogeygal
09-16-2009, 04:01 PM
News conference at 5pm EST

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 04:05 PM
Has anyone heard how many emails were sent from him to her? I'm hearing it was a lot.

f_stills
09-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Possible motives for murder include jealousy, rage, arguments over the mice, sexual assault or other reasons. Please discuss motives here:

Well, the CBS report from last night said their source had stated there was "no romance" involved in the crime. From what I've read, most news sources are not floating information about it being a crime of passion/jealousy/sexual. What I have noticed was:

1. The Fox 61 report about a possible argument between Le and Clark regarding animal abuse: http://www.fox61.com/ (the video clips from 09/15 night)

2. The emails between Le and Clark about mice protocol http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_could_brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html

3. The NY Post article that mentions Clark, an animal lab technician, has many pets and that he kept his pit bull locked in a crate.

I know it makes more sense, comparatively, to believe Clark was obsessed with her and/or jealous of her. She was killed five days before her wedding, which she spoke often of to those around her, and she was a smart, popular, successful, attractive young woman. It's an easy conclusion that there was some sort of crime of passion involved.

But news media isn't reporting that. They are reporting that she was found with her clothes on. They are reporting, or at least floating, the theories of a disagreement regarding animals.

I know it sounds strange. I know it makes more sense to believe Clark had some sort of terrible infatuation with Le. But I don't think news sources would report the "animal/mice connection," so to speak, for no good reason either.

We'll see I guess.

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 04:17 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 04:17 PM
Great post. I think I know what you are inferring but not sure. Can I counter with maybe RC wanted to work at Yale for that very reason?

Actually, no way most likely. Great post.


Hi, I wasn't trying to infer anything. Just providing some facts on the Yale student population and it's richness of ethnic and international backgrounds.

Facts are nice.

In the event these facts are useful to posters in supporting their arguments regarding Annie's ethnicity and possible motive, I just thought I'd put the info here in our nice new thread. :innocent:

Waddles
09-16-2009, 04:20 PM
I can totally believe this-they have heated discussion, he tries to exert authority, she defends herself, argument, fight, he loses it

Waddles
09-16-2009, 04:22 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.

My thoughts exactly :clap: But much better worded than me-thank you

gxm
09-16-2009, 04:23 PM
I'm leaning heavily to the idea that RC developed a "romantic" fixation on Annie and became frustrated at her impending wedding. This frustration may have manifested in calling her out on the animal protocol. But as her wedding grew nearer, the protocol controversy was not enough of an outlet. (Note that Annie remained professional and pleasant in response to RC's animal concerns and that she didn't become confrontational could have been construed as a "snub" as I think he was trying to get her attention anyway he could.) That's what I've got for now. IMO the only affair he had with Annie was in his head.

Roy23
09-16-2009, 04:23 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.

We have heard that RC came into the building after Annie did. I wonder if he was late and Annie had to do something that normally the technician did. Maybe at that point RC comes in and had issue with it. He already had issue with her practices so maybe they relived it again to the point of violence.

Kat
09-16-2009, 04:26 PM
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-autopsy-yale-student-murdered-cause-of,0,4101796.story

7:51 p.m. EDT, September 15, 2009


...It wasn't until five days after her disappearance that members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully-clothed body...

I'm bringing this to the motive thread for consideration. I have not puzzled out a motive as of yet.

Note: the above quote isn't attributed to anyone or an entity (LE/FBI). I had seen a previous article (which I can't find right now where the quote was attributed to a "source").

DeepThinker
09-16-2009, 04:27 PM
Well, I'll throw my two cents in as well...

As far as a motive, I personally feel that Annie had an affair with him and it ended badly, as has been mentioned earlier, or that she refuted an advance of some sort and it angered him. I am not sure he meant to kill her, though. I think he then went home and told the gf that he had done something, and they called the other two parties, and that's why they all left with baggage, which tells me that they knew something was up and went somewhere else for a day or so, possibly to discuss a plan of action.

JMO

FishingFunnyFrog
09-16-2009, 04:28 PM
I can totally believe this-they have heated discussion, he tries to exert authority, she defends herself, argument, fight, he loses it

I'm starting to see these events as a quite likely. I could definitely see him flying off into a rage at a woman who might have been defending her position against his accusations. A neighbor said RC seemed very controlling over his girlfriend and that she often heard yelling/arguing from his apartment.

The only things that lead me to believe Ray could have had a fatuation of sorts with Annie are his interest in Asian people (Asian club in high school/etc) and the possibility that he might have been hitting on women at work (the reference from his gf about an affair). But these could be completely unrelated.

ETA: I also see RC capable of sexual assult because his ex gf accused him of rape. I know we haven't heard if Annie was raped, and we have heard that she was found fully clothed, but she was wearing a skirt that day...I hate to think about it.

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 04:28 PM
I'm leaning heavily to the idea that RC developed a "romantic" fixation on Annie and became frustrated at her impending wedding. This frustration may have manifested in calling her out on the animal protocol. But as her wedding grew nearer, the protocol controversy was not enough of an outlet. (Note that Annie remained professional and pleasant in response to RC's animal concerns and that she didn't become confrontational could have been construed as a "snub" as I think he was trying to get her attention anyway he could.) That's what I've got for now. IMO the only affair he had with Annie was in his head.

I can see this, too. The protocol thing seems like the natural avenue for his sexual and/or nonsexual frustrations.

Whether or not the romantic element actually did play a part in it, I think the violent end was the only possible end as far as RC was concerned. :(

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 04:33 PM
Well, I'll throw my two cents in as well...

As far as a motive, I personally feel that Annie had an affair with him and it ended badly, as has been mentioned earlier, or that she refuted an advance of some sort and it angered him. I am not sure he meant to kill her, though. I think he then went home and told the gf that he had done something, and they called the other two parties, and that's why they all left with baggage, which tells me that they knew something was up and went somewhere else for a day or so, possibly to discuss a plan of action.

JMO

Yeah, I'm not so sure this was premeditated either, because of what we've learned about his personality. Or maybe he's one of those guys who wishes he could "kill" anyone who opposed him, saying things like, "I'm gonna kill that guy," etc.

But I agree...I'm thinking he probably did tell GF and/or family either something happened, or that he was being wrongly suspected by LE. Either way, GF and family would try to "help" him. (Sure am glad I wasn't on the receiving end of his "story.")

Rainsbee
09-16-2009, 04:35 PM
It's so hard to figure out motive without knowing whether she was raped, beaten, dismembered, or if a ligature was used. I also think it is important to know if the perp intended to leave her where he hide her. I looked at some writings on modis operandi, and these facts could really help us out. I hope we hear at 5 pm.

Sanddollar14
09-16-2009, 04:38 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.

Ailina, I totally agree with you. Given the information that we have, it appears to me that RC has major power and control issues. His older myspace page that was linked here yesterday shows that he has no respect for women. For him to have any self esteem or power and control issues around a grad student like Anne, he had to prove that he was in control of the whole situation. Who know what kind of self talk RC was using to justify his actions (if he is the killer), but you can bet the only remorse would be that he got caught. He seems so much like the spouse batterers that I have worked with. This is IMO.

Indianagirl
09-16-2009, 04:42 PM
I don't think it was premeditated either. I base my reasoning on him having to leave clothing behind, the location of the murder, and the cause of death. I think he strangled her spur of the moment because he didn't have a weapon. Overall, this doesn't appear to be a well thought out premeditated murder. If he did or currently was having an affair with her, why not just call her up and ask her to meet him somewhere or follow her known trails, why kill her in such a risky place?

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 04:43 PM
Who know what kind of self talk RC was using to justify his actions (if he is the killer), but you can bet the only remorse would be that he got caught. He seems so much like the spouse batterers that I have worked with. This is IMO.

Definitely agreed. Someone with his personality would be convinced any problems were always "someone else's fault." Annie would've been one to defend her position logically. It's been my experience, when trying to argue logic with someone like RC, that only serves to further their irrational rage. (NOT saying it's Annie's fault at all here. Just saying her reasonable reaction would've fed into RC's rage.)

Torsade
09-16-2009, 04:44 PM
I think it's very possible that all of these things attributed to the "flash point" of murder: jealousy, attraction, resentment, control....

However, I think the primary element in RC's personality was his need for control. His seems to fit the personality profile for serial killers; if you recall, BTK was freakishly controlling about his neighborhood housing association requirements, even measuring cut grass with a ruler.

RC was a stickler for details and protocol as well, calling out people who violated the "shoe covers" regulation. Sounds like he tried to micro-manage everyone around him.

Annie strikes me as one who would "conciliate" to a point, but she would have to be confident and independent to function at her high level at the lab. To me, this would be just the type of situation fertile for a confrontation.

Add to that wedding stress (as someone mentioned in the general thread), perhaps RC's suppressed attraction, his anger at being unable to control those around him...Annie would seem to be a likely target -- petite, conciliatory, obliging (if she did respond to an email he sent), along with the necessary element of opposition to him, which would no doubt spark his violent nature.

That's what I believe happened. He tried to show some authority, although he was a paeon, over some silly violation exactly like the "shoe covers" violation, or "we put the slash in THIS spot", and she was initially contrite and then put him in his place, and his pent-up anger over not being someone important suddenly took over. I'm not saying this well, but it's my theory.

DeepThinker
09-16-2009, 04:47 PM
Yeah, I'm not so sure this was premeditated either, because of what we've learned about his personality. Or maybe he's one of those guys who wishes he could "kill" anyone who opposed him, saying things like, "I'm gonna kill that guy," etc.

But I agree...I'm thinking he probably did tell GF and/or family either something happened, or that he was being wrongly suspected by LE. Either way, GF and family would try to "help" him. (Sure am glad I wasn't on the receiving end of his "story.")

He's definitely off-center, to say the least. However, being off-center is not grounds for condemnation. I agree with other posters in that he sounds very controlling, most likely has low self-esteem and a lot of rage. Those could very easily culminate into an act of passion, such as strangulation. Considering Annie's very petite frame (I read somewhere that she only weighed about 90 lbs.), it wouldn't take much pressure at all to strangle her. This, in my mind, is consistent with the types of wounds RC is said to have (scratch marks on his chest and arms, and a mark under one eye). To me, these definitely indicate defense wounds from the victim. (When I first read that he had defense wounds, I thought he was the one defending against an attacker - needless to say, I was a bit confused, lol :waitasec:)

Chili Fries
09-16-2009, 04:47 PM
I think it's important to know that in a lab setting regulations are very numerous and very well defined. It's important to adhere to regulations but following them to the absolute strictest letter of the law can be a little bit unnecessary, like the example of always wearing shoe covers in the area where Raymond worked. Shoe covers are probably important but if you walk in the area without shoe covers for a moment it may not make any difference.

In my experience working in one lab when you entered the lab area you were supposed to wear safety glasses, that was the rule. But if you just needed to go into the lab for a second to retrieve some paperwork and weren't going to be near any dangerous chemicals...then it was OK to not put on safety glasses (though my boss would frown on it. He wouldn't freak out though).

This could also extend to the way you used chemicals, filled out paperwork, cleaned up after yourself, etc....

Now there was a picture of the Bennett lab, which was the main group Annie was in and not at the Amistad building (I don't believe). It looked like many university labs I have seen, a mess. The reason for that is because universities don't tend to have many, if any, safety control officers so the tidyness of individual labs depend on how neat the professor or whomever runs it is.

So Annie may have been used to a little more disorder. She also was probably generally pushed for time so those types of things can make you cut corners even if it's just in a small way. Labwork includes a lot of paperwork and cleanup. Sometimes it's really difficult to fill out and do everything perfectly. For example, I used to have to check refrigerators every day and record the temperature on paperwork stuck by a magnet on each fridge. Sometimes I just got busy and forgot so there was a gap in the record. It probably didn't really matter because the temps were almost always the same but it was supposed to be done and I did my best to keep up with it but it's not always possible to be perfect.

Finally, I have known people who use regulations to further their ulterior motives and I'm sure many of you do too. For example a woman I worked with persuaded the boss to institute a policy that every time you left the workplace you had to mark yourself out on a board. Her stated reason was because if there were a fire we would have to know who was in the facility so we could account for them. But her real reason was that she wanted the control of knowing who was where.

Anyway, it sounds to me like Raymond used absolute adherence to the regulations, something nobody could always do, to fill his need to control. I could see him channeling great anger into feeling always screwed over because people didn't do something right. Maybe he had to clean up behind researchers, maybe he just had OCD about it, maybe it was because he felt like the low guy on the totem pole or a combination of all of it.

I'm not discounting an infatuation with Annie also but from the e-mails and what other people who used his lab said it sounds like he had these issues.

Sanddollar14
09-16-2009, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE='Ailina;4166455]Definitely agreed. Someone with his personality would be convinced any problems were always "someone else's fault." QUOTE]

Yes, always someone else's fault and is probably angry with her because she made him do it. Was it in one of the newspapers that said his neighbors talked about how mean he was to his girlfriend? It looks like he only had control over his dog.

Chanler
09-16-2009, 04:59 PM
The emails exchanges between Ray and Annie seem interesting...Ray was accusing Annie of not following protocol with the lab mice. The murder seems more sexual to me though. Perhaps Ray was infatuated with Annie and used the lab mice protocol thing as a reason to contact Annie via email and have conversations with her? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,550740,00.html

Hi, FishingFunnyFrog, great moniker. To me, that accusation sounds more like a controlling male than a hopeful suitor. Which apparently was his reputation with at least some of his neighbors.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 05:00 PM
Postulating here only:

I keep thinking about how Annie the bride MUST have been leaving town very soon for NY (wedding guests arriving, etc.), (and for at least a week, one would think), and making advance preparations to be gone from work - making preparations with regard to her absence from her research & perhaps from her mice. By Tuesday, she may have been making final preparations, and last minute requests, etc.

Labrat would have a better idea, but it seems Annie & RC might naturally need to communicate about mice things with regard to her absence. (Maybe even during her absence.)

Lots of work-related reasons to have an argument, and Annie's leaving for the wedding could have sparked some work-related conflict between them.

again, just noodlin' here...

Sanddollar14
09-16-2009, 05:02 PM
That's what I believe happened. He tried to show some authority, although he was a paeon, over some silly violation exactly like the "shoe covers" violation, or "we put the slash in THIS spot", and she was initially contrite and then put him in his place, and his pent-up anger over not being someone important suddenly took over. I'm not saying this well, but it's my theory.

I suspect he tried to show a bit of authority over Anne also. She probably did not have to say much to send him into a rage. He was probably already there in his head just expecting what she might say to him. Who knows, she might even attempted to ignore him. Boy, wouldn't that send someone like that over the edge!!!

Waddles
09-16-2009, 05:07 PM
Postulating here only:

I keep thinking about how Annie the bride MUST have been leaving town very soon for NY (wedding guests arriving, etc.), (and for at least a week, one would think), and making advance preparations to be gone from work - making preparations with regard to her absence from her research & perhaps from her mice. By Tuesday, she may have been making final preparations, and last minute requests, etc.

Labrat would have a better idea, but it seems Annie & RC might naturally need to communicate about mice things with regard to her absence. (Maybe even during her absence.)

Lots of work-related reasons to have an argument, and Annie's leaving for the wedding could have sparked some work-related conflict between them.

again, just noodlin' here...


Noodle away :)
yes had not thought of that-the impending absence from the mice may well have been one of the triggers as well as the speculations of mishandling or not respecting protocol

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 05:09 PM
Noodle away :)
yes had not thought of that-the impending absence from the mice may well have been one of the triggers as well as the speculations of mishandling or not respecting protocol

A bit OT, here, but I just find it so tragic this might've been her last day at work anyway before the wedding. I keep thinking...she almost made it out. :(

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 05:20 PM
From the Evidence thread (Thanks, shoebox!):

"Blood splatter were found on a laundry cart and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.

ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and which Clark was in charge of overseeing. "

http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

Sounds like Clark had plenty of time to stew in his anger. He was probably thinking of all the things he was going to say to her when she got there, and I'm sure Annie probably had time to anticipate the confrontation. Was she worried? Nervous? Irritated?

Point being, there was time plenty of time between the text and the meeting for RC to get worked up and for Annie's dread to build.

Adrienne37
09-16-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm still not convinced that this was anything related to his job versus hers, etc. I honestly believe that he was probably infatuated with her, knew she was getting married and decided to take a chance to approach her. Annie rejected him and he killed her. Now, the other thing that I am questioning right now is could this be something similar to what happened in the Texas cadet murder case? I'm am tossing this out there because of the strong accusations that the fiance posted on the MySpace page and the fact that she was so convinced that he wouldn't have an affair on her. Obviously something happened that made her post those things so is it possible that she might have helped him with this? I know it's probably a stretch but I sensed a real insecurity by his fiance, almost to the point of desperation and trying to convince herself that he wouldn't stray on her.

kikid
09-16-2009, 05:31 PM
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-autopsy-yale-student-murdered-cause-of,0,4101796.story

7:51 p.m. EDT, September 15, 2009



I'm bringing this to the motive thread for consideration. I have not puzzled out a motive as of yet.

Note: the above quote isn't attributed to anyone or an entity (LE/FBI). I had seen a previous article (which I can't find right now where the quote was attributed to a "source").

that doesn't rule out sexual assault. she was wearing a skirt.

Kat
09-16-2009, 05:43 PM
that doesn't rule out sexual assault. she was wearing a skirt.

No it doesn't rule it out, I completely agree.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 05:45 PM
From the Evidence thread (Thanks, shoebox!):


Sounds like Clark had plenty of time to stew in his anger. He was probably thinking of all the things he was going to say to her when she got there, and I'm sure Annie probably had time to anticipate the confrontation. Was she worried? Nervous? Irritated?

Point being, there was time plenty of time between the text and the meeting for RC to get worked up and for Annie's dread to build.



Yes, he's the Mouse King. She crossed him one time too many.

moo again, just noodlin'

Sanddollar14
09-16-2009, 05:49 PM
If RC listened to the 5:30 presser, he is going to be more disturbed with the police spokesman repeatedly talking about his low level position, his "custodial" position.

Sanddollar14
09-16-2009, 05:54 PM
From the Evidence thread (Thanks, shoebox!):


Sounds like Clark had plenty of time to stew in his anger. He was probably thinking of all the things he was going to say to her when she got there, and I'm sure Annie probably had time to anticipate the confrontation. Was she worried? Nervous? Irritated?

Point being, there was time plenty of time between the text and the meeting for RC to get worked up and for Annie's dread to build.

Don't you know that RC was feeling quite righteous before his planned meeting. I wonder why it is that a custodian can call a meeting with the grad students. If Anne knew anything about him, I would suspect she was concerned about a confrontation.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 05:55 PM
The Chief's saying no info on other family members involved nearly rules out animal rights or something other it being between the two of them. The text message ABC is reporing tells us he summoned her to the lab -- no signup.

eyes4crime
09-16-2009, 06:00 PM
I can't make much of a comment, and tonight's PC will help

Raymond has been a tech for several years and worked with many doctoral level students prior to Annie regarding lab protocol etc. Certainly there were altercations, disagreements and clashing personalities before Annie! Working with minorities wasn't new to Raymond. Unless complaints were ignored and or hidden away by faculty, it appears that Raymond and student successfully worked out the problems. So what happened with Annie?

For one, and perhaps the biggest, his personal love life took a sharp turn - he got engaged and was to be married in December. He was living with his fiance. They shared a love for animals and both were working at Yale.

What if the engagement and living with his fiance exacerbated issues that he thought were resolved? Seems that Raymond is like the double edged sword, one side concerned with people, animals, and humanity and the other concerned only for himself...guess I need more information to figure out...why annie?

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 06:06 PM
I can't make much of a comment, and tonight's PC will help

Raymond has been a tech for several years and worked with many doctoral level students prior to Annie regarding lab protocol etc. Certainly there were altercations, disagreements and clashing personalities before Annie! Working with minorities wasn't new to Raymond. Unless complaints were ignored and or hidden away by faculty, it appears that Raymond and student successfully worked out the problems. So what happened with Annie?

For one, and perhaps the biggest, his personal love life took a sharp turn - he got engaged and was to be married in December. He was living with his fiance. They shared a love for animals and both were working at Yale.

What if the engagement and living with his fiance exacerbated issues that he thought were resolved? Seems that Raymond is like the double edged sword, one side concerned with people, animals, and humanity and the other concerned only for himself...guess I need more information to figure out...why annie?

I've been wanting to chime-in on the wedding. It was scheduled for December 2011 -- quite a while away. I wonder if he ever had intentions of actually going thru with it.

Harmony2
09-16-2009, 06:08 PM
The Chief's saying no info on other family members involved nearly rules out animal rights or something other it being between the two of them. The text message ABC is reporing tells us he summoned her to the lab -- no signup.

Yeppers.

MWright
09-16-2009, 06:12 PM
Perhaps it was a combination of romantic fixation, Asian fixation (as reported is being reported: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/nyregion/17yale.html?em - no offense to anyone), and some sort of hierarchical jealousy due to Annie's advanced position/education over him.

Imagine Clark, who probably performed menial lab tech duties, probably had to pretty much comply with what the researchers, faculty, researchers told him to do, generally speaking.

With Annie, perhaps he could exert some sort of power (in addition to his possible romantic fixations). Perhaps, in addition to perhaps getting rejected by Annie, he took out all his rage about being at the bottom of the totem pole on her because he could probably dominate her physically, due to her slight size. He also probably recognized that he could intimidate her. After all, she responded in a conciliatory manner to his emails about the mice. In addition, he requested a visit to discuss the mice issue, a request which she fatally complied too. (see evidence link: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89032)

I kinda don't get the feeling that Annie was mutually involved with him. I'm betting this was a one-sided fatal attraction.

eyes4crime
09-16-2009, 06:18 PM
Perhaps it was a combination of romantic fixation, Asian fixation (as reported is being reported: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/nyregion/17yale.html?em - no offense to anyone), and some sort of hierarchical jealousy due to Annie's advanced education over him.

Imagine Clark who does menial lab tech duties, and he probably has to do pretty much comply with what the researchers, faculty, researchers tell him to do.

Perhaps, in addition to perhaps getting rejected by Annie, he took out all his rage about being at the bottom of the totem pole on her because he could probably dominate her physically, due to her slight size. He also probably recognized that he could intimidate her. After all, she responded in a conciliatory manner to his emails about the mice. In addition, he requested a visit to discuss the mice issue, a request which she fatally complied too. (see evidence link: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89032)

I kinda don't get the feeling that Annie was mutually involved with him. I'm betting this was a one-sided fatal attraction.

Why now was he feeling at the bottom of the totem pole? He's done this work for a few years...so why murder poor Annie? I haven't read one single report of Annie using her intelligence or doctoral status to taunt, exploit, or control men...not a one! So I disagree that Annie was anything like a fatal attraction...there is no history of it. Maybe Raymond saw her as such, but why? TIA if you can provide some.

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't know if there's an obsession/sexual angle to this, but either way I think there must be a strong "power" angle. She's a Ph.D. student - that's the highest level graduate degree you can get in that field. To get in a Ph.D. program, you either came from an outstanding undergrad program, or have a master's degree (in addition to the B.A.). From the press conference, he was a "tech" in what it sounded like was a nice way to describe a specialized janitor. Even if he sent her emails about mouse cages, she was the clear "superior." If he's a controlling man by nature, he probably was very uncomfortable with having to basically clean up after this tiny, cute, Ph.D. student. For a lot of unenlightened men, that's not a "natural" position.

Everyone says she was a wonderful person, but sometimes people who are so educated and used to dealing with Professors and other Ph.D. students slip up and "talk down" to support staff. Good people never aim to talk down to others, but sometimes even if you think you're being respectful and don't mean to, the other person could interpret it as being talked down to. I could see in a situation like this him already being self-conscious about his position, and maybe her saying something off-hand that he took as an insult and flying off into a rage - either actually killing her there, or sparking the idea to kill her.

If he was obsessed with her also, then that's even stronger support for my argument. JMO as always

ges79
09-16-2009, 06:22 PM
Perhaps it was a combination of romantic fixation, Asian fixation (as reported is being reported: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/nyregion/17yale.html?em - no offense to anyone), and some sort of hierarchical jealousy due to Annie's advanced education over him.

Imagine Clark who does menial lab tech duties, and he probably has to do pretty much comply with what the researchers, faculty, researchers tell him to do.

Perhaps, in addition to perhaps getting rejected by Annie, he took out all his rage about being at the bottom of the totem pole on her because he could probably dominate her physically, due to her slight size. He also probably recognized that he could intimidate her. After all, she responded in a conciliatory manner to his emails about the mice. In addition, he requested a visit to discuss the mice issue, a request which she fatally complied too. (see evidence link: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89032)

I kinda don't get the feeling that Annie was mutually involved with him. I'm betting this was a one-sided fatal attraction.

Thank you! You must have read my mind. I cannot fathom Annie and RC having any kind of romantic relationship, except maybe in RC's mind. It is also interesting that both Annie and RC's fiancee are petite in stature. Could be nothing more than his personal preference OR it is easier to be dominant over someone who is physically smaller than you. Just thinking outloud and MOO.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 06:23 PM
I am hearing that he used his keycard about a dozen times during the day of the murder and sometimes during off hours.

porkchop
09-16-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't think the motive is anger or sexually based at all. I believe that whoever did this caused the alarm to go off to create a distraction because they were trying to steal something. I think Annie ran across this person stealing and the person had to kill her to keep from being caught. Simply put wrong place wrong time.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't think the motive is anger or sexually based at all. I believe that whoever did this caused the alarm to go off to create a distraction because they were trying to steal something. I think Annie ran across this person stealing and the person had to kill her to keep from being caught. Simply put wrong place wrong time.
I think all the information, heretofore, disspells that notion.

MLE
09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
I can't help but think of the Texas cadet murder as someone mentioned in a previous thread. Maybe RC and Annie did have a fling or a one night stand and JH had something to do with her murder due to jealousy, or she put Ray up to it to "cleanse" their relationship.

I think there was a couple about to start at the US Air Force Academy back in the '90s where the girl had her boyfriend kill a cheerleader he had slept with.

Amster
09-16-2009, 06:39 PM
I don't know....mouse mistreatment is just a little too "out there" for motive.

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 06:39 PM
Why now was he feeling at the bottom of the totem pole? He's done this work for a few years...so why murder poor Annie? I haven't read one single report of Annie using her intelligence or doctoral status to taunt, exploit, or control men...not a one! So I disagree that Annie was anything like a fatal attraction...there is no history of it. TIA if you can provide some.

I don't think MWright was saying Annie did anything to provoke him. I posted something similar before - RC might have worked with Ph.D.s before, but maybe he never had to report to a tiny, cute, young girl before.

Not that it's right. Its sexist and awful. In my personal experience - I'm a corporate lawyer, at 5'1" with freckles and I could probably pass for 17 if I tried. There have been men at work who served as "support staff" who were clearly uncomfortable with the fact that I was the "superior" in the working relationship. At times making sexual comments I wish I didn't hear. And I mean, in our society, any woman who achieves even a modicum of success is often thought of as "emasculating." Make that "emasculated" man a sociopath, and I don't think its a stretch to imagine him as a murderer.

Its sick.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 06:40 PM
Quick question...what is RC's religion? I've seen in an old passing comment that makes me wonder if he's jewish. I don't have the link, didn't think anything of it when I saw it. I'll try to look, though.

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 06:43 PM
I don't know....mouse mistreatment is just a little too "out there" for motive.

Agreed. I don't think an animal rights activist is going to work in an animal research lab for years (except if its to make one of those undercover PETA videos). These mice are injected with chemicals to test their reactions - its not a party for the mice.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 06:45 PM
Something that's in the back of my mind...and I sort of don't think it's even important, but just maybe..so I'm throwing it out here: In some of Annie's research, her mice were developing cancerous cells. She was also working on pregnant mice. It's probably nothing, but is this something that may have bothered him? I haven't seen where she'd done work involving larger animals, but I've seen a canine mentioned a couple of times...not sure if her research is connected, though. I honestly don't think this is an animal rights thing, just wondering and thought I should put it out here.

CharlotteH
09-16-2009, 06:45 PM
Quick question...what is RC's religion? I've seen in an old passing comment that makes me wonder if he's jewish. I don't have the link, didn't think anything of it when I saw it. I'll try to look, though.

Not sure, but I think he was wearing a cross necklace in one photo.

Looks like possibly here, but the photo I'm thinking of isn't in this slideshow: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/galleries/the_life_and_death_of_annie_le/the_life_and_death_of_annie_le.html#ph6

MLE
09-16-2009, 06:47 PM
Even though RC is a clean cut white guy, much like Le's fiance, I just don't see her giving him the time of day romantically. Her fiance is a grad student at an Ivy League school. If she was going to get a back-up boyfriend, a student there at Yale with a lot of daddy's money and an Ivy League education and the job opportunities that come with it would've made a lot more sense...not a high school grad working in the animal lab.

gxm
09-16-2009, 06:48 PM
I've been wanting to chime-in on the wedding. It was scheduled for December 2011 -- quite a while away. I wonder if he ever had intentions of actually going thru with it.

I agree. His upcoming wedding could have added to his frustration if he was repressing feelings for Annie. It might have made him feel even more out of control, not something a control freak handles well I would think. Annie's wedding, his wedding, the protocol "violations" being used as an excuse to lash out could have all created the violent rage that it requires to strangle a person to death.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 06:50 PM
I don't know....mouse mistreatment is just a little too "out there" for motive.

probably. but control issues are not. we been told Annie was feisty. she may also have, inadvertently in her brilliance come across as condescending and argumentative.

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 06:56 PM
probably. but control issues are not. we been told Annie was feisty. she may also have, inadvertently in her brilliance come across as condescending and argumentative.

I think anyone who might've opposed RC might've come across as argumentative, but I agree -- considering Annie's personality and position, her opposition was probably exaggerated in his mind.

(Sidenote: I've met a lot of brilliant, "feisty" people who don't hesitate to speak their minds, yet they can come across as awfully forward or confrontational. I'm glad Annie seemed to be one of these self-confident, out-spoken kinds of people. Makes me all the more angry at the perp for punishing her for it.)

eyes4crime
09-16-2009, 06:56 PM
Something that's in the back of my mind...and I sort of don't think it's even important, but just maybe..so I'm throwing it out here: In some of Annie's research, her mice were developing cancerous cells. She was also working on pregnant mice. It's probably nothing, but is this something that may have bothered him? I haven't seen where she'd done work involving larger animals, but I've seen a canine mentioned a couple of times...not sure if her research is connected, though. I honestly don't think this is an animal rights thing, just wondering and thought I should put it out here.

Jersey Girl - producing cancer cells in mice is quite interesting! Wonder what she did to make that happen. I would love the link to her work that resulted in a production of cancer cells...TIA

gxm
09-16-2009, 06:56 PM
I don't know....mouse mistreatment is just a little too "out there" for motive.

I agree. IIRC, Ed Begley Jr. once commented that his marriage broke up over a towel rack. The point being that it wasn't about the towel rack, there were underlying issues at work. It's all about the subtext and I can't help but think there has to be some angry, emotional and distorted subtext going on in Annie's killer's warped mind.

esqgerl
09-16-2009, 07:00 PM
Even though RC is a clean cut white guy, much like Le's fiance, I just don't see her giving him the time of day romantically. Her fiance is a grad student at an Ivy League school. If she was going to get a back-up boyfriend, a student there at Yale with a lot of daddy's money and an Ivy League education and the job opportunities that come with it would've made a lot more sense...not a high school grad working in the animal lab.

I actually agree with you on this one. I believe there is a tacit understanding among high achievers, but maybe that it the wrong way to phrase it, that you marry within your "level of understanding" so to speak. This goes WAY beyond
cultural ideals - because you are so past that. It's sort of like meshing on the zeniths/goals of life.

kikid
09-16-2009, 07:01 PM
Even though RC is a clean cut white guy, much like Le's fiance, I just don't see her giving him the time of day romantically. Her fiance is a grad student at an Ivy League school. If she was going to get a back-up boyfriend, a student there at Yale with a lot of daddy's money and an Ivy League education and the job opportunities that come with it would've made a lot more sense...not a high school grad working in the animal lab.

true, for a "relationship", but for a short term pre-nuptual sex only fling - maybe his physical appearance would be enough??

Not saying they had one, but it's possible.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 07:03 PM
I agree. His upcoming wedding could have added to his frustration if he was repressing feelings for Annie. It might have made him feel even more out of control, not something a control freak handles well I would think. Annie's wedding, his wedding, the protocol "violations" being used as an excuse to lash out could have all created the violent rage that it requires to strangle a person to death.

This is totally my gut: He felt he should have had someone like Annie rather than the girl to whom he was engaged. No aspersions cast on his fiance -- I'm talking about the possible twisted thinking in this person's head.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:04 PM
Jersey Girl - producing cancer cells in mice is quite interesting! Wonder what she did to make that happen. I would love the link to her work that resulted in a production of cancer cells...TIA

I only saved the link to pubmed. Try going to pubmedcentral (I think that's the link) and type in her name (Le, A or Le, Annie, or Le, AM) and also try putting in Bennett. You'll pull up a bunch of stuff. These are published and recognized. Some of them show the split of cells and some show cancerous, some deal with stem cells, some relate to diabetes...but very curious that not all of them relate to diabetes.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:07 PM
This is totally my gut: He felt he should have had someone like Annie rather than the girl to whom he was engaged. No aspersions cast on his fiance -- I'm talking about the possible twisted thinking in this person's head.

Have you come across exactly when he became engaged? When did Annie become engaged and when did RC become engaged? Did RC propose to JH or was it the other way around? Also, are we absolutely certain that they are actually engaged...or could they just be "saying" they are engaged without a ring? Again, just speculating b/c I haven't seen her ring picture...yet...not even sure if this is significant...

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 07:07 PM
Something that's in the back of my mind...and I sort of don't think it's even important, but just maybe..so I'm throwing it out here: In some of Annie's research, her mice were developing cancerous cells. She was also working on pregnant mice. It's probably nothing, but is this something that may have bothered him? I haven't seen where she'd done work involving larger animals, but I've seen a canine mentioned a couple of times...not sure if her research is connected, though. I honestly don't think this is an animal rights thing, just wondering and thought I should put it out here.


not sure. first inclination is to say no.

If this research bothered RC, would he choose to work for 4 years as an animal tech in a cancer research facility?

on the other hand:
Could be that's WHY he worked there - as a mouse advocate?

I guess you could argue either way, jersey.

dark minds are hard to see through.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 07:10 PM
not sure. first inclination is to say no.

If this research bothered RC, would he choose to work for 4 years as an animal tech in a cancer research facility?

on the other hand:
Could be that's WHY he worked there - as a mouse advocate?

I guess you could argue either way, jersey.

dark minds are hard to see through.

No, I'm totally with you on this...just thought I should throw it out there since I found some of the mice got cancer...thought it may be curious, even though it goes with the nature of a scientists research in her field.

eyes4crime
09-16-2009, 07:11 PM
I don't think MWright was saying Annie did anything to provoke him. I posted something similar before - RC might have worked with Ph.D.s before, but maybe he never had to report to a tiny, cute, young girl before.

Not that it's right. Its sexist and awful. In my personal experience - I'm a corporate lawyer, at 5'1" with freckles and I could probably pass for 17 if I tried. There have been men at work who served as "support staff" who were clearly uncomfortable with the fact that I was the "superior" in the working relationship. At times making sexual comments I wish I didn't hear. And I mean, in our society, any woman who achieves even a modicum of success is often thought of as "emasculating." Make that "emasculated" man a sociopath, and I don't think its a stretch to imagine him as a murderer.

Its sick.

GOOD for you for achieving success in the business world! Sorry you have had to experience all that foolish behavior...It happens in every profession and is insulting. Doubt Annie did much of anything substantial to provoke him; interpretation of her responses and requests lie within Raymond...certainly she isn't the first brilliant woman Raymond has interacted with...what was it about Annie that brought out murderous rage in him? Sorry, I do think he is guilty so that's the side of the coin I'm coming from. moo

MWright
09-16-2009, 07:14 PM
I don't think MWright was saying Annie did anything to provoke him. I posted something similar before - RC might have worked with Ph.D.s before, but maybe he never had to report to a tiny, cute, young girl before.

Not that it's right. Its sexist and awful. In my personal experience - I'm a corporate lawyer, at 5'1" with freckles and I could probably pass for 17 if I tried. There have been men at work who served as "support staff" who were clearly uncomfortable with the fact that I was the "superior" in the working relationship. At times making sexual comments I wish I didn't hear. And I mean, in our society, any woman who achieves even a modicum of success is often thought of as "emasculating." Make that "emasculated" man a sociopath, and I don't think its a stretch to imagine him as a murderer.

Its sick.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say, except that you wrote it (here and in your previous post) so much more eloquently. ;)

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 07:15 PM
GOOD for you for achieving success in the business world! Sorry you have had to experience all that foolish behavior...It happens in every profession and is insulting. Doubt Annie did much of anything substantial to provoke him; interpretation of her responses and requests lie within Raymond...certainly she isn't the first brilliant woman Raymond has interacted with...what was it about Annie that brought out murderous rage in him? Sorry, I do think he is guilty so that's the side of the coin I'm coming from. moo



I like your focus eyes4crime. What was it about Annie?

noodling:

What's different about Annie from the other grad students on Tuesday?

Annie was all "wedding wedding wedding!!!! so excited".
maybe RC's fiance was too. and maybe RC was sick of that.

...

perhaps that knowledge added fuel to the fire of whatever confrontation occurred Tuesday between them.

just a thought. not necessarily brilliant, but trying to stay within your focused question.

Columbo
09-16-2009, 07:18 PM
Quote from Connecticut News:

>snip
In May, Clark’s girlfriend wrote on her MySpace page about a rumor that her boyfriend, whom she calls Ray, was cheating on her with the girl who works at the Yale lab.>snip

Clark's in love with Le, according to Clark's girlfriend they were having an affair. Clark became obessive because he could not have Le. Anger provoked the strangulation of Le which is considered a personal act.

I really doubt that they were actually having an affair. I will be really surprised if we find out they were, but I could be wrong.

Maybe he made suggestive comments to Annie while he worked near her and she thought it was just humorous, so she joked along? That made him believe she really might be interested? Although I have trouble with that theory also.

I wonder if Clark was obsessed with Annie and talked about her so much at home, and in such detail, (all fantasy stuff), that the girlfriend began to believe he actually was having an affair with her.

MLE
09-16-2009, 07:24 PM
I really doubt that they were actually having an affair. I will be really surprised if we find out they were, but I could be wrong.

Maybe he made suggestive comments to Annie while he worked near her and she thought it was just humorous, so she joked along? That made him believe she really might be interested? Although I have trouble with that theory also.

I wonder if Clark was obsessed with Annie and talked about her so much at home, and in such detail, (all fantasy stuff), that the girlfriend began to believe he actually was having an affair with her.

Maybe so. That she sent Princeton a picture of her rear end shows that she wasn't a prude and liked to joke around.

At one place I used to work, some of the women would do things like pinch my ass and I would joke and say stuff like, "That felt good...do it again!" The ladies I worked with knew I was full of crap, but if RC is crazy enough to kill, it's untelling how he may have wrongly interpreted a lighthearted joke if Le joked around with him.

eyes4crime
09-16-2009, 07:26 PM
I like your focus eyes4crime. What was it about Annie?

noodling:

What's different about Annie from the other grad students on Tuesday?

Annie was all "wedding wedding wedding!!!! so excited".
maybe RC's fiance was too. and maybe RC was sick of that.

...

perhaps that knowledge added fuel to the fire of whatever confrontation occurred Tuesday between them.

just a thought. not necessarily brilliant, but trying to stay within your focused question.

Not only what what made Annie different from other grad students on Tuesday, but what made her different from ALL the grad students he had interacted with in the past few years? Maybe getting engaged and living with his fiance made him exceptionally sensitive toward a happy, vibrant, secure woman. Wonder what was going on in raymond's life/mind that had recently changed?

Columbo
09-16-2009, 07:27 PM
Maybe so. That she sent Princeton a picture of her rear end shows that she wasn't a prude and liked to joke around.

At one place I used to work, some of the women would do things like pinch my ass and I would joke and say stuff like, "That felt good...do it again!" The ladies I worked with knew I was full of crap, but if RC is crazy enough to kill, it's untelling how he may have wrongly interpreted a lighthearted joke if Le joked around with him.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking.

t93
09-16-2009, 07:32 PM
I would bet there was no fling. Smile, be polite, and wonder why he didn't further his education if you ever even gave him a second thought. If you ever grew up in a home where education was everything-those who don't have it, you wonder why, especially when they seem to be intelligent enough to go further. Generally not part of the dating pool. Just from what I know about people driven to succeed.

tempspeak
09-16-2009, 07:35 PM
No, I'm totally with you on this...just thought I should throw it out there since I found some of the mice got cancer...thought it may be curious, even though it goes with the nature of a scientists research in her field.

1. Growing cancer in mice is a very standard lab technique, at least 20 years old.
2. I did not find in PubMedCentral any paper authored jointly by Le and Bennett. Where did you see that?!

Tonto
09-16-2009, 07:42 PM
In order for someone to feel superior or exercise control over another, he or she must have been given that power prior. For this reason, I could see a possible previous unhealthy fling between the two that gave him the 'courage' to exercise this power; that is, to feel comfortable scornfully directing someone clearly superior in every way. I could be dead wrong, but I don't think a hidden admiration or obsession, coupled with something as trivial as mouse etiquette, would lead to such an unbound rage. Her taking back her power with gusto however, could've caused a struggle of epic proportions.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 07:45 PM
Not only what what made Annie different from other grad students on Tuesday, but what made her different from ALL the grad students he had interacted with in the past few years? Maybe getting engaged and living with his fiance made him exceptionally sensitive toward a happy, vibrant, secure woman. Wonder what was going on in raymond's life/mind that had recently changed?


these are two different questions you are asking, IMO

1) what made Annie different? (in RC's mind)

and

2) what was going on in RC's life/mind that had changed?



We'll never know the the answer for either question for sure, since they involve getting in someone's head. (and, as we've said, it's dark in there.)

But the answers might just intersect at the wedding stuff.


Also, when you look at things that way, it swings us back to more of an infatuation motive. Most guys don't give a rat's arse (pardon the pun) that a chick at work is getting married. Maybe RC was bothered by it.

******************

Changing directions, and looking at question 1)
Another way Annie might have been different in RC's mind:

If she really was having a problem with regard to the mice, and she really did mess things up and/or ignore/break protocol. Which RC cared about deeply.

********************

And yet another angle, to look at question #2):
What had happened recently to change things for RC:

If Grad students were complaining about RC, and RC realized that was happening, perhaps RC had been rebuked by authority. Perhaps he felt his job was threatened via these complaints.

Then, it may not be about Annie so much, but about the fact that she was simply the next grad student who walked in, or messed up. And he was ripe for an escalation.

*********************

okay, thank you eyes4crime. now my brain hurts a little, though.

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 07:46 PM
In order for someone to feel superior or seek control over another, he or she must have been given that power prior.

Hmm...I don't know if I agree this applies in all cases. Feelings of superiority and control are pre-existing in narcissists, megalomaniacs, etc. They feel superior in general, to everyone, without a "testing period," so to speak.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=MLE;4166964]Maybe so. That she sent Princeton a picture of her rear end shows that she wasn't a prude and liked to joke around.
snipped
[QUOTE]



I guess I missed that one. Can you tell more about that - how do we know about a picture sent to Princeton? TIA...

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 07:48 PM
Sources also said investigators are finding evidence that the pint-sized scientist who only weighed 90 pounds put up a fierce struggle with her attacker.
Blood splatter was found on a laundry cart, and a bead from her necklace was found on the floor of the basement lab where she was killed and stuffed into a wall panel.
Police also found a pair of bloody surgical gloves.
ABC News has also learned that Clark sent a text message to Le early Tuesday, Sept. 8, requesting a meeting to discuss the cleanliness of research mice, with which Le was working and the cages of which Clark cleaned.
Police were able to track Clark's movements by reviewing the data from his digital key card which shows he entered the building no fewer than 10 times, including after hours, on the day Le went missing, according to law enforcement sources.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

MLE
09-16-2009, 07:50 PM
[QUOTE=MLE;4166964]Maybe so. That she sent Princeton a picture of her rear end shows that she wasn't a prude and liked to joke around.
snipped
[QUOTE]



I guess I missed that one. Can you tell more about that - how do we know about a picture sent to Princeton? TIA...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/california-classmate-recalls-annie-le-as-smart-sassy-homicide-probe-continues-at-yale.html

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 07:53 PM
bead from necklace found on the floor and death was caused by traumatic asphyxia... I am thinking he used the necklace as a kind of garote

Tonto
09-16-2009, 07:55 PM
Hmm...I don't know if I agree this applies in all cases. Feelings of superiority and control are pre-existing in narcissists, megalomaniacs, etc. They feel superior in general, to everyone, without a "testing period," so to speak.

Power must be given before another can assume it. The disorders you mention are simply symptoms of those that enjoy taking this power.

esqgerl
09-16-2009, 07:55 PM
bead from necklace found on the floor and death was caused by traumatic asphyxia... I am thinking he used the necklace as a kind of garote

I personally think there is no necklace made that could strangle me. Maybe I am wrong, and I don't think it matters, but I just don't see it.

JerzWhim
09-16-2009, 07:55 PM
Hmm...I don't know if I agree this applies in all cases. Feelings of superiority and control are pre-existing in narcissists, megalomaniacs, etc. They feel superior in general, to everyone, without a "testing period," so to speak.

I agree completely. I would add that cold-blooded killers when ready to kill already feel in control and never need anyone to reliquish control to them to murder.

To the other poster's point though, her mere presence alne as small, slight woman could give him a greater feeling of control (something that she obviously had control over). In that case, he might see the small woman just being alone with him as empowering.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 07:58 PM
1. THE POLICE HAVE CLARK'S KEY CARD AND IT SHOWS HIM GOING IN and Out At Least 1. Ten (10) Times.Some of those afterhours.

2. POLICE DISCOVERED BLOODY SURGICAL GLOVES3. The PANEL to the CHASE was Removed or opened and she was stuffed behind it. It was replaced.

3. In addition to blood other bodily fluids were found--unclear what kind

4. He emailed or texted her about dirty cages - complaining - and said words to the effect of "we need to meet."

5. This is being viewed as possible sign of setup-premeditation

6. Police were looking for clean up materials.

Emma Peel
09-16-2009, 07:59 PM
[quote=Emma Peel;4167052][QUOTE=MLE;4166964]Maybe so. That she sent Princeton a picture of her rear end shows that she wasn't a prude and liked to joke around.
snipped


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/california-classmate-recalls-annie-le-as-smart-sassy-homicide-probe-continues-at-yale.html



"Cierra Silva Montes, who went to Union Mine High School with Le, remembered her as a bubbly, outgoing girl who was never afraid to challenge the views of her teachers and other students in class. "

This person Montes is the source of that "story" in the article. I'd need collaboration on that little tidbit from Annie's family before I'd believe a high school IVY League rejection-and-revenge story like that. Makes for a nice urban legend at the high school, probably.

She'd have had to cross Princeton off her med-school list before she even got to the U of R, if this is true.

just sayin, pass the salt. hee hee.

jmo

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:06 PM
I personally think there is no necklace made that could strangle me. Maybe I am wrong, and I don't think it matters, but I just don't see it.

I agree, when it comes to most silver and gold chains. But a leather cord necklace or even some types of silk might be strong enough. I've even got one very heavy silver chain -- and I mean really heavy, too -- that might be strong enough to withstand someone pulling it like that.

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:10 PM
"Cierra Silva Montes, who went to Union Mine High School with Le, remembered her as a bubbly, outgoing girl who was never afraid to challenge the views of her teachers and other students in class."

What do you suppose it means, that she was never afraid to challenge others' views? I can think of few people of my personal acquaintance I'd describe that way. Some of them can do it nicely, in a way that doesn't make people feel threatened or insulted, and some of them can't.

SeriouslySearching
09-16-2009, 08:11 PM
Reminder to stay on the topic of MOTIVES here. ;)

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:14 PM
1. Growing cancer in mice is a very standard lab technique, at least 20 years old.
2. I did not find in PubMedCentral any paper authored jointly by Le and Bennett. Where did you see that?!

In pubmed definitely. i had to think about it but it was pubmed. i only saved stuff i thought was important and i'm kicking myself now. i know it goes with the territory of research. give me some time and i'll find some stuff...and i never said jointly, just that she may have assisted on. i left out assisted, but her name is still on it. i'm sorry, i'm trying. just an amateur here :)

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 08:16 PM
You guys are probably not going to like my theory. I'm approaching it from a different angle. I just joined Websleuths for the Fiore murder case, but this mysterious disappearance did catch my eye, especially when they found her body inside a wall in the same building.

Here's how I've been looking at it. I haven't read about the loves in her life or the rivalries she's had at school, so I looked at this without assuming it was some kind of domestic squabble.

Firstly, since she disappeared inside the building and was found dead inside, I assumed it was an inside job. Who would know about such a place to conceal at body? Janitors, professors, lab technicians, students.

They mentioned they found her blood on clothing that wasn't the same clothes she was last seen wearing, so I thought she might have been either convinced to wear it or she was put in it in an unconscious state. I figured maybe this was some hazing ritual gone bad, or a sorority prank gone bad, considering it was also pretty close to the beginning of the school year.

It wasn't until today I thought of something else more sinister, related to the occult. The date she disappeared was a day before an important date in terms of numerology for satanists - September 9, 2009, or 9-9-9. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to such things, but I do know that the number 9 has significance for some occultists. If the time of death comes back, and they can accurately pinpoint it, and it's find out she died within 12 hours of her disappearance, or close to 9am-9min-9sec, if not at midnight on 9-9-9, then that will give more credence to my theory. I doubt she was alive more than a day if she was in the building that whole time. It would be hard to keep someone prisoner, unless they built secret rooms into that place.

We're talking about Yale here, not just some regular community college. They have a long history with secret societies and such. Perhaps she was targeted because she met their requirements, such as someone who has abstained until marriage? Maybe the clothing she was wearing (i.e. put in) when killed is significant, in addition to the method she was killed or bled out.

I know that all sounds simplistic and something out of a cheap hollywood script, but it's a different way to look at the case and the motive for murder. If you know people on this forum who are knowledgeable in occult murders relating to satanism, you should ask for their input as well. Check out the significance of the number 9 and the three 9s.

That's just my 2 cents.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 08:21 PM
You guys are probably not going to like my theory. I'm approaching it from a different angle. I just joined Websleuths for the Fiore murder case, but this mysterious disappearance did catch my eye, especially when they found her body inside a wall in the same building.

Here's how I've been looking at it. I haven't read about the loves in her life or the rivalries she's had at school, so I looked at this without assuming it was some kind of domestic squabble.

Firstly, since she disappeared inside the building and was found dead inside, I assumed it was an inside job. Who would know about such a place to conceal at body? Janitors, professors, lab technicians, students.

They mentioned they found her blood on clothing that wasn't the same clothes she was last seen wearing, so I thought she might have been either convinced to wear it or she was put in it in an unconscious state. I figured maybe this was some hazing ritual gone bad, or a sorority prank gone bad, considering it was also pretty close to the beginning of the school year.

It wasn't until today I thought of something else more sinister, related to the occult. The date she disappeared was a day before an important date in terms of numerology for satanists - September 9, 2009, or 9-9-9. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to such things, but I do know that the number 9 has significance for some occultists. If the time of death comes back, and they can accurately pinpoint it, and it's find out she died within 12 hours of her disappearance, or close to 9am-9min-9sec, if not at midnight on 9-9-9, then that will give more credence to my theory. I doubt she was alive more than a day if she was in the building that whole time. It would be hard to keep someone prisoner, unless they built secret rooms into that place.

We're talking about Yale here, not just some regular community college. They have a long history with secret societies and such. Perhaps she was targeted because she met their requirements, such as someone who has abstained until marriage? Maybe the clothing she was wearing (i.e. put in) when killed is significant, in addition to the method she was killed or bled out.

I know that all sounds simplistic and something out of a cheap hollywood script, but it's a different way to look at the case and the motive for murder. If you know people on this forum who are knowledgeable in occult murders relating to satanism, you should ask for their input as well. Check out the significance of the number 9 and the three 9s.

That's just my 2 cents.

The secret societies at Yale are undergraduate societies. No new graduate student from Rochester would have anything to do with such nonsense. I think grad students are "over it" in terms of fitting in with the in-crowd at Yale. They live off campus, they are not immersed into the other stuff that goes on.

Kimster
09-16-2009, 08:23 PM
How wonderful to meet more new WS members! I'm enjoying your posts!

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz350/rosco_sandy/Welcome%20to%20the%20group/LIONBLINKYWTTG-5.gif

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:26 PM
Raymond Clark, the lab tech who police have labeled a "person of interest" in the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le, has wounds on his chest, arms and back, sources told ABC News.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/annie-le-suspect-raymond-clark-released-giving-dna/story?id=8588970

I think we will be hearing rape in the coming days

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:26 PM
I personally think there is no necklace made that could strangle me. Maybe I am wrong, and I don't think it matters, but I just don't see it.

With all due respect, you are very wrong in this...respectfully said:) I have a personal experience with a long chain. I fell down an escaltor while trying to walk in heels in my 20's. My chain got stuck in the last escalator step. It sliced through the back of my neck and was completely cutting off my circulation. A man ran over and cut it off with a folding knife he had in his pocket. I could have died. I had to go to the hospital and everything. Standards are different now, with the gaps in those escalator steps...I'm assuming not only I had a problem with this, I can imagine children's shoelaces getting caught, etc. This is a true story. I couldn't break it off myself, neither could anybody near me.

esqgerl
09-16-2009, 08:30 PM
With all due respect, you are very wrong in this...respectfully said:) I have a personal experience with a long chain. I fell down an escaltor while trying to walk in heels in my 20's. My chain got stuck in the last escalator step. it sliced through the back of my neck and was completely cutting off my circulation. A man ran over and cut it off with a folding knife he had in his pocket. I could have died. I had to go to the hospital and everything. Standards are different now, with the gaps in those escalator steps...I'm assuming not only I had a problem with this, I can imagine childrens shoelaces getting caught, etc. This is a true story. I couldn't break it off myself, neither could anybody near me.

With all due respect, I just think you are the exception, not the rule. I was replying in a certain context - i.e., Annie Le.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:31 PM
1. Growing cancer in mice is a very standard lab technique, at least 20 years old.
2. I did not find in PubMedCentral any paper authored jointly by Le and Bennett. Where did you see that?!

I'm sorry, welcome to Websleuths tempspeak:)

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:32 PM
How thick was the chain you were wearing, and what was it made of? They described Annie Le's necklace as "brown," which sounds to me like something on a leather cord.

The thin silver chains I have would probably break if someone pulled too hard on them. Only the really heavy one would stand up to rough treatment.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:33 PM
With all due respect, I just think you are the exception, not the rule. I was replying in a certain context - i.e., Annie Le.

I'll add to this, too. I was thinking of a gold chain, or metal chain. They stated "bead", which would mean it's a beaded necklace. Can you strangle somebody with a beaded necklace...is it possible? I do believe you're right here, esq. I'm sorry. :blowkiss:

editing b/c somebody just said necklace is brown, possibly leather? couldn't that strangle somebody?

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:36 PM
How thick was the chain you were wearing, and what was it made of? They described Annie Le's necklace as "brown," which sounds to me like something on a leather cord.

The thin silver chains I have would probably break if someone pulled too hard on them. Only the really heavy one would stand up to rough treatment.

Mine was a long gold chain, but I just posted that I thought I was wrong. Sorry for this goosechase.
One thing I just noticed, though, is that you said you saw "brown necklace" ... maybe it wa sleather with beads on it or something? That could sure choke somebody, no?

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 08:38 PM
The secret societies at Yale are undergraduate societies. No new graduate student from Rochester would have anything to do with such nonsense. I think grad students are "over it" in terms of fitting in with the in-crowd at Yale. They live off campus, they are not immersed into the other stuff that goes on.

Like I said, I don't know who would do it, I just threw out secret societies as an example of tightly knit groups within Yale. For all we know, it could be a small group of Yale people who secretly believe in that satanic stuff, but aren't affiliated with any of the other fraternities or societies. Whoever it was, they were familiar enough with the place to know how to conceal a murder and a body within, rather than get caught trying to transport it out.

It's just an angle to keep an open mind about and I'd still suggest asking the opinion of websleuth members who are familiar with occult killings.

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:40 PM
With all due respect, I just think you are the exception, not the rule. I was replying in a certain context - i.e., Annie Le.


Develop the habit of not wearing scarves or long necklaces that could be used to strangle you.


http://www.dvipiowa.org/strategies.htm

the above quote is one of the listed strategies to prevent domestic violence

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:40 PM
I'll add to this, too. I was thinking of a gold chain, or metal chain. They stated "bead", which would mean it's a beaded necklace. Can you strangle somebody with a beaded necklace...is it possible? I do believe you're right here, esq. I'm sorry. :blowkiss:

editing b/c somebody just said necklace is brown, possibly leather? couldn't that strangle somebody?

I've seen it reported multiple times that she was wearing a brown skirt, a green shirt, brown shoes, and a brown necklace.

One of my hobbies is jewelry-making, and I believe you could strangle someone with a beaded necklace. Leather cord is very strong, and so are the coated wire products that are used for some types of beading. The ends of the necklace might pop off, since that's the biggest point of weakness, but the cord itself would stay intact. And since a bead was found loose, that does suggest that the part that secures the beads came off.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:43 PM
I've seen it reported multiple times that she was wearing a brown skirt, a green shirt, brown shoes, and a brown necklace.

One of my hobbies is jewelry-making, and I believe you could strangle someone with a beaded necklace. Leather cord is very strong, and so are the coated wire products that are used for some types of beading. The ends of the necklace might pop off, since that's the biggest point of weakness, but the cord itself would stay intact. And since a bead was found loose, that does suggest that the part that secures the beads came off.

Thanks so much for this Sola.

TonyGatto
09-16-2009, 08:44 PM
The autoclave set off the alarm. MOO

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:44 PM
All this talk of the necklace and Jersey Girl's description of her scary experience on the escalator got me to thinking.

What if there was an argument that ended up in a gruesome accident as a result of her necklace getting caught in machinery? And the guy freaked out and stuffed her body into a wall?

f_stills
09-16-2009, 08:45 PM
They mentioned they found her blood on clothing that wasn't the same clothes she was last seen wearing, so I thought she might have been either convinced to wear it or she was put in it in an unconscious state. I figured maybe this was some hazing ritual gone bad, or a sorority prank gone bad, considering it was also pretty close to the beginning of the school year.

It wasn't until today I thought of something else more sinister, related to the occult. The date she disappeared was a day before an important date in terms of numerology for satanists - September 9, 2009, or 9-9-9. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to such things, but I do know that the number 9 has significance for some occultists. If the time of death comes back, and they can accurately pinpoint it, and it's find out she died within 12 hours of her disappearance, or close to 9am-9min-9sec, if not at midnight on 9-9-9, then that will give more credence to my theory. I doubt she was alive more than a day if she was in the building that whole time. It would be hard to keep someone prisoner, unless they built secret rooms into that place.


The line of thinking is that the bloody clothes found in the ceiling belonged to the killer, NOT Le. In fact news sources have reported that one of the reasons Clark's name was given to the police was because an acquaintance of his noticed the clothes he was wearing late on Tuesday did not match the clothes he was wearing earlier. This has led some of us to conclude the bloody clothes are his and that he stashed them in the ceiling in an attempt to hide the evidence. Le's body was found wearing the same clothes she was last seen in.

Le was murdered Tuesday September 8th, not 9th.

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 08:46 PM
Power must be given before another can assume it. The disorders you mention are simply symptoms of those that enjoy taking this power.

A rape victim does not GIVE her rapist "power." He RAPES it from her. Hence the name of the crime.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:47 PM
http://www.dvipiowa.org/strategies.htm

the above quote is one of the listed strategies to prevent domestic violence

I totally know. I was wrong and will never ever ever wear those types of chains again. & to add to that, my husband is lucky if he sees me in heels more than twice a year! and...this...was...a...mall...how...embarassing...

Skigirl
09-16-2009, 08:49 PM
Regarding SmokingGun's posts: I don't mean this to in *any way* imply that she deserved what happened, or deserved to have anything at all happen to her. But I thought some of the outfits in her pictures were a bit much. I have no idea how she dressed when going in to the lab, but if she wore anything like what she wore in some of the pictures I saw, it would be unwise -- not because it would invite attack, but because it would undermine her professionalism/authority in the lab setting. I only say that because it may have colored the way RC saw her and may have amplified any resentment he had of grad students/post-docs.

That said, the clothes she's pictured in going into the building don't fall into the "inappropriate for the lab" category in my opinion.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 08:53 PM
All this talk of the necklace and Jersey Girl's description of her scary experience on the escalator got me to thinking.

What if there was an argument that ended up in a gruesome accident as a result of her necklace getting caught in machinery? And the guy freaked out and stuffed her body into a wall?

not so sure b/c they had to obtain a warrant to search & get dna. why would they need a warrant for his place of residence if he did nothing wrong. it just doesn't sit well with me for some reason. even if he ends up being innocent, i wonder of some sort of involvement with him either way. it's too weird.

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 08:57 PM
Regarding SmokingGun's posts: I don't mean this to in *any way* imply that she deserved what happened, or deserved to have anything at all happen to her. But I thought some of the outfits in her pictures were a bit much. I have no idea how she dressed when going in to the lab, but if she wore anything like what she wore in some of the pictures I saw, it would be unwise -- not because it would invite attack, but because it would undermine her professionalism/authority in the lab setting. I only say that because it may have colored the way RC saw her and may have amplified any resentment he had of grad students/post-docs.

That said, the clothes she's pictured in going into the building don't fall into the "inappropriate for the lab" category in my opinion.

I agree. I didn't take SmokingGun's posts or yours in a "she had it coming" way, either. We're looking at facts.

I have some experience in chemistry and chemical engineering labs, and what you'd wear there is, IMO, possibly more conservative than you'd wear in a biology lab. I was always careful to keep nasty chemicals off my clothes, but one incident where a fellow student accidentally sprayed hydrochloric acid on my new designer jeans cured me of the habit of EVER wearing nice clothes to the lab. In a bio lab, maybe you could get away with wearing more fashionable and/or revealing clothes, but I'd never do it in a chem lab.

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 08:57 PM
if it were an accident I highly doubt he would have shoved her in the ceiling and have scratches and bruises on his arms, back, chest, and ear (moo)

adnoid
09-16-2009, 09:00 PM
Let's discuss the subject and not each other, OK?

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 09:00 PM
The line of thinking is that the bloody clothes found in the ceiling belonged to the killer, NOT Le. In fact news sources have reported that one of the reasons Clark's name was given to the police was because an acquaintance of his noticed the clothes he was wearing late on Tuesday did not match the clothes he was wearing earlier. This has led some of us to conclude the bloody clothes are his and that he stashed them in the ceiling in an attempt to hide the evidence. Le's body was found wearing the same clothes she was last seen in.

Le was murdered Tuesday September 8th, not 9th.

I didn't see the date of her murder listed in the article. Is that what the M.E. said?

I'm confused about your last line. The news said the bloody clothes were not the ones she was last wearing, but they don't mention that she was clothed. Why would they say that if she was wearing clothes? Did they say if there was blood on her clothes? Any theories on where the blood came from if she was asphyxiated?

f_stills
09-16-2009, 09:03 PM
Hi, new here..took a couple of days to get approved.

I am familiar with the medical center at Yale. I can resolve a lot of these misconceptions.

1. Normally, researchers don't give out their personal cell phone numbers to custodial mouse techs. RC's job was to manage the mice colonies. That's what they do. They don't participate in research at all. If he sent her a text about managing a colony, it was likely because his girlfriend might see the text message and they were trying to hide a relationship.


I would think the police have access to Le's phone records and possibly Clark's. I'm sure they've been poring over who has called or texted Le and would note whether Clark frequently contacted her through this method and whether his contact seemed to indicate more than a professional relationship. Last night CBS News specifically stated their sources told them there was "no romance" involved in the crime.

I immediately thought the text message detail was strange as well. But do we have to necessarily conclude Clark having Le's cell number is indicative of a deeper relationship? Le was getting married in five days. Reports say she was busy getting a lot of work done so she could afford to take time off for her honeymoon. We know Clark and Le had communicated directly through emails about mice protocol beforehand. Is it a reach to imagine she gave Clark her personal number not because they were involved personally, but professionally? In case any urgent research matters came up during those last few hectic days before she left Yale for an extended amount of time?

A good number of people in my cell address book are not my friends at all but simply those I work with and sometimes need to be in touch with quickly.

t93
09-16-2009, 09:09 PM
Early reports said she loved designer clothing. As an aficionado myself, I know it isn't your average lab tech clothing. Coming from a highly academic family I can tell you some in science find designer fashion to be revealing. I do remember someone saying in an article further back that you often hear the click of her heels, suggesting she often maybe wore her California style clothing? She could have stood out to him just from her "California"ness. I know one guy who goes nuts anytime you mention California. I made the mistake once of telling him to try a California roll and I got a lecture. I did see a lot of her Facebook pictures early on, and to me what she wore was standard Cali chic.

Skigirl
09-16-2009, 09:09 PM
Well, it's been a while since grad school, but back in my day, techs/research assistants did have phone numbers for the grad students in case of problems. This was before cell phones and texting, but they emailed us whenever they were trying to reach us, if they couldn't get us on the phone. I don't think it's *that* weird that he would have her cell phone number. He was in charge of the mice she was using for her experiments. She would want to know if there was a problem.

On another note, I thought it was weird when I read (I think in the Yale Daily News) that someone said they used to see her wheeling her mice back and forth between Sterling and Amistad. I don't recall ever seeing anyone wheeling their mice around on the street around the med center.

mrskitten
09-16-2009, 09:11 PM
Hi, brand new here, just got approved. Have no inside knowledge, but I have a student (not at Yale) who has some kind of connection with the case, so my interest in piqued.

Please say more if you can, Smoking Gun! I'm interested.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 09:12 PM
Smokingun since the police seem to be running thier mouths is ther any chance of getting RC date of birth out of them. Our Astrologist need it..

Haha. I'm sure every cop knows the specific detail of his birthday..and his ss# too...unlikely. I'll ask around.

Tonto
09-16-2009, 09:12 PM
Smokingguns post is relevant. No matter how one likes to believe their dress or manners are not how they are to be perceived, this belief is sorely mistaken. SG is not saying she deserved it, but that 'suggestive behavior' could have triggered it. There is nothing wrong with looking at all angles to see any potential motivations of this horrid crime.

According to statistics, most murders are the result of deviance - that is, putting oneself in social positions that increase the probability of occurrence (cheating, for example). Everything should be open to debate until a case is closed. It's how detectives solve crimes.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 09:14 PM
Well, it's been a while since grad school, but back in my day, techs/research assistants did have phone numbers for the grad students in case of problems. This was before cell phones and texting, but they emailed us whenever they were trying to reach us, if they couldn't get us on the phone. I don't think it's *that* weird that he would have her cell phone number. He was in charge of the mice she was using for her experiments. She would want to know if there was a problem.

On another note, I thought it was weird when I read (I think in the Yale Daily News) that someone said they used to see her wheeling her mice back and forth between Sterling and Amistad. I don't recall ever seeing anyone wheeling their mice around on the street around the med center.

I work there..there is no wheeling of mice. Typically they use the tunnel system but the Amistad is a new building and I'm not sure if its connected to the tunnel system. I have never, ever, ever, seen mice outside. Ever.

f_stills
09-16-2009, 09:15 PM
I didn't see the date of her murder listed in the article. Is that what the M.E. said?

I'm confused about your last line. The news said the bloody clothes were not the ones she was last wearing, but they don't mention that she was clothed. Why would they say that if she was wearing clothes? Did they say if there was blood on her clothes? Any theories on where the blood came from if she was asphyxiated?

You are right in that neither the ME nor any law enforcement have stated her exact date of death. That means September 9th, while not necessarily the "wrong" date, is not necessarily the "right" date either. Most of us believe she was killed the same day she was last seen-- and that is the 8th. Again, reports have said that one reason Clark was turned in to police was because an acquaintance noticed he was wearing different clothing than he was last seen in, indicating an unusual change of clothing within that same day. I believe that day is the 8th.

The news is saying the bloody clothes are not Le's. Presumably they are the suspect's. The news is saying that Le's body was found wearing the exact same clothes she was last seen in.

The news is also saying that Clark had scratches and bruises all over his upper body. The blood on the clothes might not be Le's. It might be his. The blood on the clothes found in the ceiling might be his own blood, and those clothes might be his own clothes.

mikeysmommom
09-16-2009, 09:17 PM
I do not understand why a lot of people are upset by what smoking gun has said.None of us know if she had a fling with him RC.If someone from the area knows info on this it will come out.Some times even people who seems angelic have another side ,that does not mean they should be murdered it just means she was living her life.I for one am glad for any info coming from those that might know more then I have read.

f_stills
09-16-2009, 09:17 PM
I work there..there is no wheeling of mice. Typically they use the tunnel system but the Amistad is a new building and I'm not sure if its connected to the tunnel system. I have never, ever, ever, seen mice outside. Ever.

This is from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/15/nyregion/15yale.html


Dennis Jones, a graduate student in immunology, said he often saw her at lunchtime, walking along the block between her office and the lab building where she was apparently killed. Many times, he said, she was pushing a cart with the mice she used for experiments. He said it took three levels of security to get into the basement of the lab building, including two swipes of a security card.

Skigirl
09-16-2009, 09:17 PM
I work there..there is no wheeling of mice. Typically they use the tunnel system but the Amistad is a new building and I'm not sure if its connected to the tunnel system. I have never, ever, ever, seen mice outside. Ever.

SmokingGun - I'm former faculty there. I've also never, ever, ever seen mice wheeled around on the street.

Amistad isn't connected to the tunnel system, though. Still, it would be unsafe for the mice to be wheeled around outside - makes no sense whatsoever.

Skigirl
09-16-2009, 09:19 PM
Thank you f_stills... I was beginning to wonder if I hallucinated that.

mikeysmommom
09-16-2009, 09:19 PM
Smokingguns post is relevant. No matter how one likes to believe their dress or manners are not how they are to be perceived, this belief is sorely mistaken. SG is not saying she deserved it, but that 'suggestive behavior' could have triggered it. There is nothing wrong with looking at all angles to see any potential motivations of this horrid crime.

According to statistics, most murders are the result of deviance - that is, putting oneself in social positions that increase the probability of occurrence (cheating, for example). Everything should be open to debate until a case is closed. It's how detectives solve crimes.

Thank You you said what I was trying to say but better!

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 09:21 PM
Smokingguns post is relevant. No matter how one likes to believe their dress or manners are not how they are to be perceived, this belief is sorely mistaken. SG is not saying she deserved it, but that 'suggestive behavior' could have triggered it. There is nothing wrong with looking at all angles to see any potential motivations of this horrid crime.

According to statistics, most murders are the result of deviance - that is, putting oneself in social positions that increase the probability of occurrence (cheating, for example). Everything should be open to debate until a case is closed. It's how detectives solve crimes.

That's funny. I hate seeing people hit their children. I hate seeing women abused by their partners. It triggers me. I'd love to personally take care of each and every abuser. I don't think I'd feel bad killing a child murderer. But I know that's against the law. I know its wrong. So rather than murdering people, I volunteer representing domestic violence victims. I'm still triggered, but I realize its wrong and I act constructively.

If this young man is so "triggered" by a woman wearing revealing clothes, maybe he should have bought her a damn sweater instead of murdering her.

There's no "conversation" to have here. She's not a prostitute with a history of violence. She's a f-ing CHEMIST.

scandi
09-16-2009, 09:21 PM
Back to MOTIVE:

In the first few links when they spoke of a man who had scratches, failed the LDT, etc, one of the things mentioned was the situation of 'unrequited love'.

So many of these little tidbits that have been published in articles have turned out to be true even tho many of them have been changed to protect the investigation. Yes, I realize that is unusual.

I think Pat Brown has it right, and it falls into the scorned lover category. The motive would be then he wanted her, and she was taken, and if he couldn't have her maybe nobody would! IMO and see you in a few hours. Go slow :rolleyes:

Nice to see you here SmokingGun

MLE
09-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Other than the blunt sexism in this post, I'd like to point out that her Facebook page photos did in fact make the news and are available online here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/11/crimesider/photoessay5303665.shtml

She dressed no different than the average 24 year old young woman from California.

I agree. Her clothing was very fashionable, not slutty. As a conisseur of wild women, my expert opinion on the matter is that she was a "good girl."

missyjane77
09-16-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't know....mouse mistreatment is just a little too "out there" for motive.

You'd be surprised. A lot of animal techs take their jobs VERY seriously...at least where I work (university research lab).

Skigirl
09-16-2009, 09:28 PM
Interesting perspective, Sherlock, but I have to tell you that Yale undergrads are a pretty normal, nice (if a little arrogant and entitled), studious set of kids, all told. The grad students are about 10xs duller, if that's even possible. They are not prone to satanic killings, and from what I've heard, even secret society events are pretty tame (in fact, one of the societies had a room above my office and I used to see them carrying in kegs every once in a while. That's about as wild as it got, from what I understand).

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 09:29 PM
That's funny. I hate seeing people hit their children. I hate seeing women abused by their partners. It triggers me. I'd love to personally take care of each and every abuser. I don't think I'd feel bad killing a child murderer. But I know that's against the law. I know its wrong. So rather than murdering people, I volunteer representing domestic violence victims. I'm still triggered, but I realize its wrong and I act constructively.

Bolded by me. But you are stable and sane and an accomplished professional. You have the emotional and intellectual wherewithal to choose to act constructively. This guy sounds like he's had a long history of an inability to control his urges, going all the way back to high school.

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 09:33 PM
Interesting perspective, Sherlock, but I have to tell you that Yale undergrads are a pretty normal, nice (if a little arrogant and entitled), studious set of kids, all told. The grad students are about 10xs duller, if that's even possible. They are not prone to satanic killings, and from what I've heard, even secret society events are pretty tame (in fact, one of the societies had a room above my office and I used to see them carrying in kegs every once in a while. That's about as wild as it got, from what I understand).

Thanks for the input. It seems strange to me that someone would go to the trouble of killing her, and hiding her body, but leave bloody clothing behind. Couldn't they just have stuck it in a back pack? They had quite a number of days before the body was found, and they could have removed it on day one. Very odd they would leave all that evidence lying around. Could be a frame-up too.

The place she was found, is it somewhere the people see or have easy access to all the time? Or does it require a special key or tools to get into that wall?

Who found her body? I didn't see any mention of how her body was discovered, only that cadaver dogs sniffed out the bloody clothing.

MLE
09-16-2009, 09:35 PM
They may have been worried the blood would bleed through their backpack.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the input. It seems strange to me that someone would go to the trouble of killing her, and hiding her body, but leave bloody clothing behind. Couldn't they just have stuck it in a back pack? They had quite a number of days before the body was found, and they could have removed it on day one. Very odd they would leave all that evidence lying around. Could be a frame-up too.

The place she was found, is it somewhere the people see or have easy access to all the time? Or does it require a special key or tools to get into that wall?

Who found her body? I didn't see any mention of how her body was discovered, only that cadaver dogs sniffed out the bloody clothing.

According to one of our maintenance staff, you can get into a mechanical wall chase with a butter knife. This was posted on the NH independent.

gxm
09-16-2009, 09:38 PM
In order for someone to feel superior or exercise control over another, he or she must have been given that power prior. For this reason, I could see a possible previous unhealthy fling between the two that gave him the 'courage' to exercise this power; that is, to feel comfortable scornfully directing someone clearly superior in every way. I could be dead wrong, but I don't think a hidden admiration or obsession, coupled with something as trivial as mouse etiquette, would lead to such an unbound rage. Her taking back her power with gusto however, could've caused a struggle of epic proportions.

I don't think he felt superior to her. I think he felt inferior to her and since the only thing he had over her was physical strength, he used it. That's why I'm so glad that petite Annie fought back so hard that she may just have left LE the evidence they need to convict her killer. It will mean that, ultimately, she even beat him at his own crime. I'm going to hang on to that hope while we wait for RC's DNA results to come back.

mikeysmommom
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
When a person is murdered all parts of their life get examined,that is how they find out who killed the person in most cases.No one likes to hear anything bad said about the victim.

MLE
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Is there video evidence of RC entering and leaving the building that directly corresponds with the times his cards were used?

missyjane77
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Hi, new here..took a couple of days to get approved.

I am familiar with the medical center at Yale. I can resolve a lot of these misconceptions.

1. Normally, researchers don't give out their personal cell phone numbers to custodial mouse techs. RC's job was to manage the mice colonies. That's what they do. They don't participate in research at all. If he sent her a text about managing a colony, it was likely because his girlfriend might see the text message and they were trying to hide a relationship.

*snipped*

Not sure about Yale, but at the university I work at, the techs have my cell phone number. If something happens to one of our animals, I'm the primary contact and they have to be able to get in touch with me if need be.

JBean
09-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Please Read Here First! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

lawlady84
09-16-2009, 09:40 PM
The day we start criticizing men for being "somewhat promiscuous" is the day I'll take this argument lying down. Pun intended.

I see gorgeous men all the time. I work on Wall Street. Some of my coworkers talk about their penthouse apartments overlooking Central Park. Their JDs and MBAs from Harvard. I see them in their perfectly tailored $6000 Armani suits, going into court in Brooklyn to represent underprivileged youth accused of crimes for free. One just surprised his mom, who worked 2 jobs to put him through college, by going to the bank and secretly paying off her mortgage. He has the body of adonis, shiny full head of hair, the smile of a TV news anchor. I want him. I'd probably sacrifice my future first born to have him.

If I decide to TAKE what I want, and rape and kill him, would ANYONE... ANYONE ever say, "well, he was attractive, intelligent and rich - he was asking for it. He was acting "suggestively" around lawlady."

Give me a break. That conversation would NEVER be had. They'd probably paint me as a scorned sl*t and pull up some old facebook pictures of me on vacation - and ignore the 15 hour work days and law degree.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Interesting that the NHPD talked about getting calls about DNA (specifically on the clothes, lab stuff, etc.) within hours and getting an arrest warrant within two hours. They haven't gotten anything yet to arrest him with.

I'm afraid they've got the wrong bloke. He just happened to be someone she messed with last summer......

bold by me. Is this something you witnessed yourself? I'm leaning towards him having a "thing" for her but she wouldn't give him the time of day. He probably went home to his "girlfriend" and complained that Annie was the one trying to mess with him...therefore creating a false scenario and making his girlfriend angry with Annie. Contrary to people saying that he's a fairly good looking guy, the pictures that I've seen of him make him look bloaty & frumpy. Some pics, though, are at good angles & make him look decent. Annie is much prettier in the photogenic sense than compared to his girlfriend, that's for sure. I haven't even found a single post in which Annie cusses extensively, or uses the foulest of language. I have, though, on RC's girlfriend. I wonder if this is something RC built up and cooked up, made to look like something it really isn't...maybe to mislead his girlfriend from his true actions & intentions.

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 09:41 PM
According to one of our maintenance staff, you can get into a mechanical wall chase with a butter knife. This was posted on the NH independent.

But who would know it was there to access? Is it common knowledge to students that such an area is wide enough for a body or a person to fit? I'm just trying to get an understanding how familiar someone would have to be with it.

If she was hidden there, then I doubt they would have transported her very far, if there are cameras around. The murder scene would probably be nearby.

I can't find articles about what she was wearing. Was she wearing the clothing she disappeared in? Or was she nude?

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 09:42 PM
*snipped*

Not sure about Yale, but at the university I work at, the techs have my cell phone number. If something happens to one of our animals, I'm the primary contact and they have to be able to get in touch with me if need be.

He's not a tech...it's not like he's a research assistant (usually bachelor's degree staff employees). He's an entry level employee (only experience required I believe is some type of animal handling class) who cleans mouse cages and delivers mice to the labs. They do not work with researchers directly other than to give them what they need for research. They don't monitor their research or anything else. When their mice die or they need more, they provide them.

JBean
09-16-2009, 09:42 PM
Reminder we are a victim friendly forum. we can discuss the background and pertinent information, but be careful.

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 09:44 PM
They may have been worried the blood would bleed through their backpack.

That's understandable. But didn't they find surgical gloves? There must be other material lying around in a lab that could prevent blood from leaking. Heck, if there are sinks, they could have just rinsed out the clothing. They'd have to wash the blood off their skin anyway.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 09:44 PM
But who would know it was there to access? Is it common knowledge to students that such an area is wide enough for a body or a person to fit? I'm just trying to get an understanding how familiar someone would have to be with it.

If she was hidden there, then I doubt they would have transported her very far, if there are cameras around. The murder scene would probably be nearby.

I can't find articles about what she was wearing. Was she wearing the clothing she disappeared in? Or was she nude?

I read from one of the contractors who constructed the building (who was working at another site in New Haven now..a private job) that a mechanical chase for a building that size would be about 5x5. It houses electrical, plumbing, etc. for a 120,000 sq ft. building...and there is space for maintenance folks to access these things.

This has all been published in many reports.

JBean
09-16-2009, 09:45 PM
Are people posting here with firsthand information?

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 09:45 PM
He's not a tech...it's not like he's a research assistant (usually bachelor's degree staff employees). He's an entry level employee (only experience required I believe is some type of animal handling class) who cleans mouse cages and delivers mice to the labs. They do not work with researchers directly other than to give them what they need for research. They don't monitor their research or anything else. When their mice die or they need more, they provide them.

Thank you for this :)

Tonto
09-16-2009, 09:46 PM
The day we start criticizing men for being "somewhat promiscuous" is the day I'll take this argument lying down. Pun intended.

I see gorgeous men all the time. I work on Wall Street. Some of my coworkers talk about their penthouse apartments overlooking Central Park. Their JDs and MBAs from Harvard. I see them in their perfectly tailored $6000 Armani suits, going into court in Brooklyn to represent underprivileged youth accused of crimes for free. One just surprised his mom, who worked 2 jobs to put him through college, by going to the bank and secretly paying off her mortgage. He has the body of adonis, shiny full head of hair, the smile of a TV news anchor. I want him. I'd probably sacrifice my future first born to have him.

If I decide to TAKE what I want, and rape and kill him, would ANYONE... ANYONE ever say, "well, he was attractive, intelligent and rich - he was asking for it. He was acting "suggestively" around lawlady."

Give me a break. That conversation would NEVER be had. They'd probably paint me as a scorned sl*t and pull up some old facebook pictures of me on vacation - and ignore the 15 hour work days and law degree.

IIRC this forum is about potential motives to a crime and not one's ideals or politics.

JBean
09-16-2009, 09:48 PM
We moderate here at WS.
1. Don't attack each other or you will get a TO
2. Don't discuss other posters as a topic or you will get a TO
3. Don't post rumors
4. We are a victim friendly forum. Please keep that in mind when you post.

For the love of pete this about a young woman brutally murdered!

5. if you are posting as a friend or someone with inside information , welcome and thank you. But,you must talk to the owner first to verify your relationship. Otherwise please don't post as an insider.



I will re open this thread in a few minutes.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:17 PM
Other than the blunt sexism in this post, I'd like to point out that her Facebook page photos did in fact make the news and are available online here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2009/09/11/crimesider/photoessay5303665.shtml

She dressed no different than the average 24 year old young woman from California.

Thank you, Sloof. I completely agree! I dressed far more risque when I went to college in Florida! I still think she looks like a class act...nothing too bad. Without a doubt, not only was this young lady brilliant, she sure was beautiful, and clothes sure did fall over her nicely.

Welcome to Websleuths. You're gonna love it here!

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 10:26 PM
There's also some discussion on motive going on in the RCIII thread. I don't think it was premeditated. I think he planned to have some kind of confrontation with her, with the mouse situation as a pretext for getting her into the lab and starting the conversation. But I think things went way, way crazy as part of that confrontation, and he killed her.

I think he has been simultaneously sexually obsessed with her, envious of her academic success compared to his own, and resentful of her position of authority.

Native New Yorker
09-16-2009, 10:28 PM
forgive my typing, as i have a broken wrist, but something else stood out for me from those Facebook photos.....
some of them looked as if they were taken at nice places...vacations?
also, one of my own kids almost applied to the Univ. of Rochester, and i recall it being quite pricey...
i know the victim had gotten many scholarships, and i surmise that her family was not wealthy....is it possible that the killer was angered by her bettering herself, moving into a richer ...not just more educated...world? Class hatred, perhaps? Perhaps her fiance was wealthy, and this angered the killer, as he felt very inferior......

HeyJoe
09-16-2009, 10:34 PM
Hi, I've read these forums from time to time but felt compelled to post on this case due to all the wild and crazy speculation that I've been seeing.

I thought you might like to receive some insight from a police officer's point of view, who also has a direct family member who is a veteran homicide detective:

The fact that she was strangled almost certainly means that this was a crime of passion. Strangulations are very personal acts. They are almost exclusively committed against family members, "ex" relationships, or victims of sexual assaults. Ligature strangulations are a small part of these and are mostly committed as part of a less impulsive crime, such as sexual sadism, serial murders, etc.

Notice how the ME said it was due to "compression of the neck" which can be taken as "strangled from the front". This can happen from the rear in choke-holds, but scratches occur on the forearms and sometimes the face of the perp. The reported scratches on the suspect's chest and back suggests that she was strangled from the front, with his hands, as she tried to fight him off.

The point being, that this was a personal, moment of passion crime. Almost ALL strangulations are either very personal, or sexual in nature. If it was another type of crime, IE: an argument gone overboard between casual acquaintances, cause of death would tend to be blunt force, gunshot or stabbing trauma.. and sometimes asphyxiation, but with facial smothering instead, such as with a plastic bag, a pillow over the face, etc.

The strangualtion act means it was a heat of the moment crime. This was either an infatuation/obsession, with an unwanted advance that lead to rape, or the two had an affair that ended very badly. I'm sorry, but people who don't know each other personally don't strangle one another over the cleanliness of a mouse cage.. even if they are sociopaths. The crime would be more calculated and the method would be different.

The infatuation/obsession leading to rape angle is much less likely if he had her personal cell number. There are a myriad of ways why he might have had it otherwise, but she would have been suspicious and would NOT have given him opportunities to be around her if he was harassing her... and little issues about lab mice are not a good enough reason for her to drop everything to go over there and subject herself to harassment by some "weirdo". It is very unlikely.

If the "text" message was a direct cell to cell SMS, meaning he had her personal phone number, it was code for "I need to talk to you.. now."

We put our money on an affair that lead to either:

1: A heated personal argument that became very impassioned and led to desperation and murder.

2: She tried to break it off in the days before and he couldn't handle it, tried to stop it from happening and it lead to number 1.



Also, the lack of information from law enforcement is routine. Information is typically withheld so that during interrogation the suspect might slip up and make mention of something that only the perp would know about.

Most of the time, questioning is first focused on facts already known so as to "read" a person and figure out what gestures they make when they are lying. Then you know what to focus on and information is fed to them in an attempt to get them to hang themselves with something that was not released to the public. It is very effective.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:36 PM
forgive my typing, as i have a broken wrist, but something else stood out for me from those Facebook photos.....
some of them looked as if they were taken at nice places...vacations?
also, one of my own kids almost applied to the Univ. of Rochester, and i recall it being quite pricey...
i know the victim had gotten many scholarships, and i surmise that her family was not wealthy....is it possible that the killer was angered by her bettering herself, moving into a richer ...not just more educated...world? Class hatred, perhaps? Perhaps her fiance was wealthy, and this angered the killer, as he felt very inferior......

? Not sure about this but I have in my notes that in fact her family does have some money, own nail salons all over California, among other places. I could be incorrect, repeat...could be incorrect. I am of the belief that Annie was a hard worker dedicated to a profession that she thoroughly enjoyed. I think she knew exactly how expensive it would be to go to college for the career path she wanted to take, so b/c of her good morals, she strived to achieve the best she could be, therefore applying for whatever scholarships she could - knowing it would only help her in the end. I am not finding, however, that her family are billionaires. Perhaps have more money than the average Joe Schmoe.

Kat
09-16-2009, 10:37 PM
Welcome to WS HeyJoe. Thank you for posting. Insightful, interesting and more than likely an accurate theory as to why this happened.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 10:40 PM
Thanks for reopening the thread. I had a whole post of what I thought was the motive and how things went down...now I have to rethink out the scenario.

Yes, I work in the medical center complex. I do have some knowledge of the facility and know folks who work with the POI and also folks who worked with the victim. I don't personally know the victim at all. I realize that this isn't a board for speculation and I'm learning the rules here (the hard way apparently).

P.S. I'm worried that they still haven't gotten ANY DNA matches yet. I'm sure they started with the bloody clothing..what gives.....

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 10:41 PM
That's a fascinating analysis, Joe. I've been wondering myself what kind of emergency at the lab would make her drop everything to head over there and risk being late for her 10:30 class.

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 10:41 PM
The infatuation/obsession leading to rape angle is much less likely if he had her personal cell number. There are a myriad of ways why he might have had it otherwise, but she would have been suspicious and would NOT have given him opportunities to be around her if he was harassing her... and little issues about lab mice are not a good enough reason for her to drop everything to go over there and subject herself to harassment by some "weirdo". It is very unlikely.



Heyjoe,
Welcome to websleuths and thank you for that GREAT post! What is in the quotes above that you said I completely agree with. If she had been scared of him or he had been giving her the creeps she would not have went to meet him in a basement about mice. I had been thinking along these same lines for a while now but could never seem to find the right words.... without making it look like I was victim bashing by insinuating there was some other sort of relationship going on between the two. Thank you for your whole entire post. ITA with it.

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:42 PM
HeyJoe, welcome to Websleuths...thanks for that perspective!

Native New Yorker
09-16-2009, 10:43 PM
wait a minute, scratch my idea, as i just realized that the poi has a III after his name, which likely indicates that he comes from an upper class background....however, the victim was clearly on a path to success....whereas the poi was not...
even if there was an affair, i still feel there was resentment, feelings of inferiority......

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 10:44 PM
Heyjoe,
Do you think the scratches on his back could indicate sexual assault?

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:45 PM
Thanks for reopening the thread. I had a whole post of what I thought was the motive and how things went down...now I have to rethink out the scenario.

Yes, I work in the medical center complex. I do have some knowledge of the facility and know folks who work with the POI and also folks who worked with the victim. I don't personally know the victim at all. I realize that this isn't a board for speculation and I'm learning the rules here (the hard way apparently).

P.S. I'm worried that they still haven't gotten ANY DNA matches yet. I'm sure they started with the bloody clothing..what gives.....

maybe it's not him...maybe it's an accomplice...maybe he was framed, which is what i've sort of been tossing around. still think he's involved, though.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 10:46 PM
HeyJoe...that was my theory as well. Text was code for "meet me" ...she went...and fight ensued. Went further than expected....bad temper, he beat and strangled her, and then came back later that night to move the body from one hiding place to another.

mrskitten
09-16-2009, 10:46 PM
Wait, so she had a 10:30 class? Can you share where you got that info, Sola? (Did everyone already know this except for me? I tried to keep up but I may have missed that detail)

Shlock Homes
09-16-2009, 10:48 PM
maybe it's not him...maybe it's an accomplice...maybe he was framed, which is what i've sort of been tossing around. still think he's involved, though.

Someone said that she was found in the same clothes she was last seen in, but I have yet to read that anywhere. Can anyone confirm this?

There could be accomplices, or there could be more than one person involved. Just out of curiosity, I would like to know if there are times missing in any of the videos when the cameras could have been out of service. That might hide people moving a body from one part of the building to another. I don't know the layout, so I don't know if her body was found near where she disappeared.

'Ailina
09-16-2009, 10:48 PM
HeyJoe...that was my theory as well. Text was code for "meet me" ...she went...and fight ensued. Went further than expected....bad temper, he beat and strangled her, and then came back later that night to move the body from one hiding place to another.

Smokinggun, is the beating part of your theory, or do you have this info on a reliable source? I'm only asking because I hadn't heard mention of beating thus far.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Wait, so she had a 10:30 class? Can you share where you got that info, Sola? (Did everyone already know this except for me? I tried to keep up but I may have missed that detail)

She was to report to work at that time, I don't think she had a 10:30 class. Her professor, AB, had a class at that time.

Very Interesting
09-16-2009, 10:51 PM
I am new to this forum, though have been reading it for past several days. First RIP Annie, she didnt deserve to be killed nor anyone like that.

From the start of this my first thought was an affair ended bad. Even when my wife first heard about it, she thought same thing.

I am sure Annie was nice person as many say, though have not bought into the innocent perfect little angel.

Just opinion, from the start and to this time still thinking motive was an affair gone bad

Personal opinion also, FBI in this instant, Yale Security and New Haven police have been a bunch of bumbling idiots constantly contradicting themselves the entire time.

And as of tonight they still have not arrested anyone nor have anyone in custody:waitasec:
Bizarre

I hope they arrest and convict Annie's killer soon

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:51 PM
Someone said that she was found in the same clothes she was last seen in, but I have yet to read that anywhere. Can anyone confirm this?

I have heard and seen 2 different reports saying the same thing but could possibly have different meanings. I've heard on the news that she was found "with" the clothes she was last seen in...and...she was found "in" the clothes she was last seen in. Probably "in" would be the right choice of word, right? idk.

nursebeeme
09-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Smokinggun, is the beating part of your theory, or do you have this info on a reliable source? I'm only asking because I hadn't heard mention of beating thus far.
The COD was traumatic asphixiation but we don't know what other injuries she sustained... from media leaks we know there was blood on clothes found in the ceiling, a pair of bloody lab gloves, and blood on a laundry cart... All together that kind of hints (to me at least) that she sustained some injury like being beaten, etc....

(of course just a guess/thoughts)

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Smokinggun, is the beating part of your theory, or do you have this info on a reliable source? I'm only asking because I hadn't heard mention of beating thus far.

That's what they are saying in New Haven. That she was beaten and strangled.

ETA: For the record, the only "theory" that I've posted tonight is how I think it went down (very similar to HeyJoe's analysis).

Columbo
09-16-2009, 10:55 PM
HeyJoe, thanks for a great post. With all your experience & knowledge, you are probably right about everything.

I am having trouble getting my mind around the idea that she actually might have had an affair with RC, though. She seems way too good for him, and better than him--why would she bother? And how could she have the time to mess around with him? OH well, I sure could be wrong.

Liadan
09-16-2009, 10:57 PM
I think a problem with her mice would interrupt her research and could potentially impact her Ph.D. Perhaps RC was threatening to sabotage her work?

I seriously doubt she was having an affair with RC - she was embroidering her wedding veil. Who values embroidering their veil if they are having an illicit affair? She was described as being a straight shooter. Not someone who feels compelled to hide her actions.

KivaSupporter
09-16-2009, 10:59 PM
Hi, I've read these forums from time to time but felt compelled to post on this case due to all the wild and crazy speculation that I've been seeing.

I thought you might like to receive some insight from a police officer's point of view, who also has a direct family member who is a veteran homicide detective:

Welcome to the Websleuths! We are glad to have you here.

Do you think they knew each other in Rochester?

Jersey*Girl
09-16-2009, 10:59 PM
That's what they are saying in New Haven. That she was beaten and strangled.

ETA: For the record, the only "theory" that I've posted tonight is how I think it went down (very similar to HeyJoe's analysis).

Are you hearing that she was "cut"? I've read that there are reports that she was "cut up pretty badly". I believe that came from one of Puffster's sources...not sure though. It was in one of the general discussion threads.

Very Interesting
09-16-2009, 11:02 PM
I think a problem with her mice would interrupt her research and could potentially impact her Ph.D. Perhaps RC was threatening to sabotage her work?

I seriously doubt she was having an affair with RC - she was embroidering her wedding veil. Who values embroidering their veil if they are having an illicit affair? She was described as being a straight shooter. Not someone who feels compelled to hide her actions.

Exactly Liadan, who values embroidering their veil if they are having an illicit affair? She tried to stop it and it went bad

Sola.N
09-16-2009, 11:03 PM
Wait, so she had a 10:30 class? Can you share where you got that info, Sola? (Did everyone already know this except for me? I tried to keep up but I may have missed that detail)

I've seen it a couple of places, IIRC, but the place I can find it at the moment is here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CT- Annie Le, missing from Yale, thread #3 BODY FOUND

I think I saw it on the Yale Daily News but can't find the article.

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 11:04 PM
Are you hearing that she was "cut" I've read that there are reports that she was "cut up pretty badly". I believe that came from one of Puffster's sources...not sure though. It was in one of the general discussion threads.

I have not heard that she was cut (like with a knife or something). I'm sure there was broken skin in a beating. You don't get that much blood and splatters from a strangulation. Any cutting rumors are new to me.

Columbo
09-16-2009, 11:11 PM
Welcome to the Websleuths! We are glad to have you here.

Do you think they knew each other in Rochester?bolded by me.

Maybe she knew him in Rochester and they were briefly involved romantically there (I mean very briefly)--and he never got over her "dumping" him for Jon? She didn't really "dump" him--but it felt like that to him...she was just less interested, to her it was a casual fling. She realized he was a nut after they got involved but too late, he was obsessed?
Just guessing. It still seems out of character for her.

masscph
09-16-2009, 11:12 PM
I think a problem with her mice would interrupt her research and could potentially impact her Ph.D. Perhaps RC was threatening to sabotage her work?


That could make sense, dont know where she were in the research-phase, but they could be very meaningfull to her, and not only 'some mice'.



I seriously doubt she was having an affair with RC - she was embroidering her wedding veil. Who values embroidering their veil if they are having an illicit affair? She was described as being a straight shooter. Not someone who feels compelled to hide her actions.

She was embroidering her wedding weil :( :( :( damn this case really gets to me in a sad way reading stuff like this. This poor girl :( :(

smokinggun
09-16-2009, 11:16 PM
I read an article that said the girlfriend/fiancee was the one to first alert the authorities because Ray came home in different clothes than he went to work in. Does anyone have a link to the source?

Kat
09-16-2009, 11:18 PM
I think the theory that the motive could possibly be unrequited feelings is not out of the question.

I wouldn't neccesarily call a relationship between Annie and the POI an affair, if there indeed was one.

If there was one, I could see that the POI might have had feelings for Annie (if we believe the reports from when this POI was in HS, he had an issue with being dropped before).

I could also see without any prejudice or judgement on the actions of the Victim that she is beautiful, intelligent, young and healthy, and she could very well have had a sexual fling with this POI. It may have been more than once, it might have only been once.

I don't know at this point.

But it's not out of the question IMHO. It's also not an insult to the victim nor casts her in an unflattering light. Annie if she did have this type of "relationship" did nothing to bring about her own death. If it is true, it's just what it is...JMHO.

masscph
09-16-2009, 11:29 PM
smokinggun: regarding what you said that they had the wrong man, read this:

http://nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab1aba51aaa2626821913.txt

adnoid
09-16-2009, 11:49 PM
Motive is what drove the perp to commit the crime. It doesn't mean we would react the same way. Please realize in our discussion when we seek to explain or understand a behavior it does not mean we therefore excuse or condone it when we say that it could have been a reason.

I'm sure we all "get" that, but I still see some people reacting to explanations put forth as if the poster were trying to excuse murder. Come on - there is NO motive that will make sense to us!

Emily Booth
09-16-2009, 11:52 PM
With all due respect, I don't think there was any relationship between Annie Le and RC other than professional. Strangulation is personal but it doesn't mean they were having an affair. He texted her to meet him, it was not a coded message. RC was in an abusive relationship w/ his GF. He's the abuser. Who's to say the person he really wanted to kill was his GF and he killed Annie instead? Annie's petite, smart, pretty and Vietnamese. She made him mad just by existing. JMO

f_stills
09-17-2009, 12:00 AM
http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/crime_wtnh_newhaven_who_killed_le_200909162300_rev 1


ABC News is reporting that Raymond Clark texted Le, on the day of her disappearance, that they should meet and talk about the dirty mice; potentially referring to the animals she was working on in the lab for research.

I wonder if the emails between the two that NYDN were reporting about Wednesday morning were about "dirty mice" and keeping cages clean (which is part of what Clark as an animal tech did).

And I'm sure a few here would consider the "dirty mice" text message to be some sort of salacious coded euphemism?

nursebeeme
09-17-2009, 12:01 AM
Motive is what drove the perp to commit the crime. It doesn't mean we would react the same way. Please realize in our discussion when we seek to explain or understand a behavior it does not mean we therefore excuse or condone it when we say that it could have been a reason.

I'm sure we all "get" that, but I still see some people reacting to explanations put forth as if the poster were trying to excuse murder. Come on - there is NO motive that will make sense to us! thank you Adnoid!!!!!!

Kat
09-17-2009, 12:02 AM
LOL...I'm sorry f_stills. I don't know why but the suggestion of salacious mice made me giggle. Nevermind :)

f_stills
09-17-2009, 12:05 AM
LOL...I'm sorry f_stills. I don't know why but the suggestion of salacious mice made me giggle.

Don't worry, it was supposed to sound silly ;)

Back on topic, there's a good chance I'm wrong. But personally I don't believe, from what the news media has been saying, that this was a crime of passion and that the text message was indicative of a personal relationship between Le and Clark, that the "mice" were somehow a code message so Clark's girlfriend wouldn't catch on. Again, the CBS report that said there was "no romance" involved in this. The Fox 61 report that floated the animal abuse disagreement theory but not any sort of romantic/sexual one. But at this point, who but Clark and the cops can know for sure?

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 12:06 AM
She was leaving town for an out of town wedding, possibly a honeymoon. Would it really be so strange for her to give this individual (co-worker with the mice) her phone number? I have no idea, actually, just asking...

Kat
09-17-2009, 12:16 AM
Don't worry, it was supposed to sound silly ;)

Back on topic, there's a good chance I'm wrong. But personally I don't believe, from what the news media has been saying, that this was a crime of passion and that the text message was indicative of a personal relationship between Le and Clark, that the "mice" were somehow a code message so Clark's girlfriend wouldn't catch on. Again, the CBS report that said there was "no romance" involved in this. The Fox 61 report that floated the animal abuse disagreement theory but not any sort of romantic/sexual one. But at this point, who but Clark and the cops can know for sure?

I honestly haven't puzzled out a motive and I think I'm going to wait on this one for LE to say.

You make a valid point, and IMHO,so does everyone else's motive they've shared.

It's really just opinions at this point and everyone's opinion does carry equal weight. That's the beauty of this particular crime board.

At the end of the day, it's not going to matter who guessed the correct motive, because at the end of the day we are still left with a murder victim ~ Annie Le.

I enjoy reading everyone's theories though, they are food for thought.

Sola.N
09-17-2009, 12:25 AM
Back on topic, there's a good chance I'm wrong. But personally I don't believe, from what the news media has been saying, that this was a crime of passion and that the text message was indicative of a personal relationship between Le and Clark, that the "mice" were somehow a code message so Clark's girlfriend wouldn't catch on. Again, the CBS report that said there was "no romance" involved in this. The Fox 61 report that floated the animal abuse disagreement theory but not any sort of romantic/sexual one. But at this point, who but Clark and the cops can know for sure?

Any passion in the situation may have been a more one-sided thing. I've known people who were utterly obsessed with someone else and would do all sorts of warped things involving the object of their obsession. This one guy I knew a decade ago was so obsessed with a coworker and how much better he was for her than her boyfriend that he drugged her (darn near killed her with a drug cocktail that was incompatible with her meds) and raped her while she was unconscious. He called her the next day fully expecting that this tactic would have convinced her to leave her boyfriend for him.

There are crazy people in the world.

barb0301
09-17-2009, 12:28 AM
NH Register reporting DNA match, arrest "appears near", so maybe some of our questions will be answered soon. Also, a 7am presser tomorrow, hopefully to announce the arrest. Here's the links for the info:

Register: http://www.nhregister.com/
Presser: ( from the New Haven Independent) http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/cops_stake_out.php

jjenny
09-17-2009, 12:30 AM
She was leaving town for an out of town wedding, possibly a honeymoon. Would it really be so strange for her to give this individual (co-worker with the mice) her phone number? I have no idea, actually, just asking...

Him having her cell phone number means nothing regarding any personal relationship. Because her mice were housed in the facility, the facility could have asked for her cell phone number to have it on file in case of an emergency with her research mice.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 12:48 AM
It seems strange that RC would have the guts to call out Annie on protocol issues. Annie was a brilliant scholar, but is it correct that Ray didn't even go to college?

:waitasec:

It is not strange at all.

Please read this-
http://iacuc.yale.edu/whistle.html

f_stills
09-17-2009, 12:48 AM
It's really just opinions at this point and everyone's opinion does carry equal weight. That's the beauty of this particular crime board.

At the end of the day, it's not going to matter who guessed the correct motive, because at the end of the day we are still left with a murder victim ~ Annie Le.

I enjoy reading everyone's theories though, they are food for thought.

You're right that on this board, everyone's opinion should be respected equally. I apologize if I came off as too derisive towards someone else's theories. It's been a long night and I'm being snarky.

Again, there is a good chance I'm very wrong and that indeed there might have been some sort of personal relationship between Le and Clark that they had to conceal, or Clark might have been singularly infatuated with Le. I will stick to my understanding that from media reports, they have been leaning against concluding that was the case. However, the many others who believe that there was some crime of passion involved could certainly be right. If the member who says they work at the Yale building among those who personally know Clark and Le is correct, they were involved last summer. Clark's fiancee did have an angry Myspace blog post addressing rumors of Clark being involved with someone at the Yale Animal Research Center, posted in early summer 2008. If true, both two details might be connected.

scandi
09-17-2009, 12:49 AM
Deleted as I posted in the wrong thread.

Kat
09-17-2009, 12:51 AM
You're right that on this board, everyone's opinion should be respected equally. I apologize if I came off as too derisive towards someone else's theories. It's been a long night and I'm being snarky.

Again, there is a good chance I'm very wrong and that indeed there might have been some sort of personal relationship between Le and Clark that they had to conceal, or Clark might have been singularly infatuated with Le. I will stick to my understanding that from media reports, they have been leaning against concluding that was the case. However, the many others who believe that there was some crime of passion involved could certainly be right. If the member who says they work at the Yale building among those who personally know Clark and Le is correct, they were involved last summer. Clark's fiancee did have an angry Myspace blog post addressing rumors of Clark being involved with someone at the Yale Animal Research Center, posted in early summer 2008. If true, both two details might be connected.

:) f_stills I wasn't chastising you, not at all. I respect your POV.

Harmony2
09-17-2009, 12:54 AM
Someone said that she was found in the same clothes she was last seen in, but I have yet to read that anywhere. Can anyone confirm this?

There could be accomplices, or there could be more than one person involved. Just out of curiosity, I would like to know if there are times missing in any of the videos when the cameras could have been out of service. That might hide people moving a body from one part of the building to another. I don't know the layout, so I don't know if her body was found near where she disappeared.

Responding to the bolded:


Five days after Le's disappearance, members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully clothed body in the research building at 10 Amistad St. She was wearing the same clothes seen in a video of her entering the building last week, a source said.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

ETA: Just had a thought... if the motive had a sexual component would the perp have taken the time to put underwear back on the victim.... she was fully clothed according to the statement above. He hid her expecting she would not be discovered.

Native New Yorker
09-17-2009, 12:57 AM
"Mr. Clark grew up in a rented gray house in a working-class neighborhood of aspirations when a nearby factory was humming. Jim Garrett, 65, who lives two doors down, said the house the Clarks lived in deteriorated as the years went by and the factory closed, and eventually Mr. Clark’s parents moved out. They went to a condominium in Cromwell, Conn., north of Middletown, where Mr. Clark’s mother works in the Wal-Mart across the street."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/nyregion/17yale.html?pagewanted=2&ref=nyregion

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:07 AM
Something that's in the back of my mind...and I sort of don't think it's even important, but just maybe..so I'm throwing it out here: In some of Annie's research, her mice were developing cancerous cells. She was also working on pregnant mice. It's probably nothing, but is this something that may have bothered him? I haven't seen where she'd done work involving larger animals, but I've seen a canine mentioned a couple of times...not sure if her research is connected, though. I honestly don't think this is an animal rights thing, just wondering and thought I should put it out here.

This is not unusual at all. I get the impression that people think Annie's work with the mice was unusual- it was not. Many mice are disease models-they are sick. You usually have to do some breeding to keep your colony going- most, if not all of the researchers would have some pregnant mice.

If this bothered him, he would have flipped the first month into that job.

Emma Peel
09-17-2009, 01:16 AM
This is not unusual at all. I get the impression that people think Annie's work with the mice was unusual- it was not. Many mice are disease models-they are sick. You usually have to do some breeding to keep your colony going- most, if not all of the researchers would have some pregnant mice.

If this bothered him, he would have flipped the first month into that job.

oh, labrat! welcome back.
I'm sure you're busy catching up here. But your opinion on my question in post #247 would be appreciated. It's also an "is this unusual" lab question.

thank you,
emma

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:21 AM
With all due respect, I don't think there was any relationship between Annie Le and RC other than professional. Strangulation is personal but it doesn't mean they were having an affair. He texted her to meet him, it was not a coded message. RC was in an abusive relationship w/ his GF. He's the abuser. Who's to say the person he really wanted to kill was his GF and he killed Annie instead? Annie's petite, smart, pretty and Vietnamese. She made him mad just by existing. JMO

I agree with you. By all accounts Annie was very much in love with her fiancee. He's a doctoral student in Physics, and a great guy according to the people who know him. They had so much in common- she said he was her best friend. They met as undergrads and stayed together while attending different graduate schools. Talked on the phone for hours, according to her friends. She was embroidering her wedding veil- that's about the sweetest thing I've ever heard. This is a woman who wanted her wedding ceremony to be meaningful and special. I don't see how anyone could really think for one minute that she would throw all that over for a tryst in a supply closet with an abusive guy who changes mouse cages for a living.:banghead:

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 01:23 AM
I agree with you. By all accounts Annie was very much in love with her fiancee. He's a doctoral student in Physics, and a great guy according to the people who know him. They had so much in common- she said he was her best friend. They met as undergrads and stayed together while attending different graduate schools. Talked on the phone for hours, according to her friends. She was embroidering her wedding veil- that's about the sweetest thing I've ever heard. This is a woman who wanted her wedding ceremony to be meaningful and special. I don't see how anyone could really think for one minute that she would throw all that over for a tryst in a supply closet with an abusive guy who changes mouse cages for a living.:banghead:

Absolutely agreed. The difference between perp & victim...maturity.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:30 AM
oh, labrat! welcome back.
I'm sure you're busy catching up here. But your opinion on my question in post #247 would be appreciated. It's also an "is this unusual" lab question.

thank you,
emma

Hi Emma! I didn't even peek in earlier today because I knew I wouldn't get anything done if I did. I came here tonight and the whole board was different and there's so many new posts now I'll never catch up!

I'll go try to find your post.

TonyGatto
09-17-2009, 01:50 AM
DNA matches; Arrest appears likely
New Haven Register

Labrat
09-17-2009, 01:59 AM
She was leaving town for an out of town wedding, possibly a honeymoon. Would it really be so strange for her to give this individual (co-worker with the mice) her phone number? I have no idea, actually, just asking...

She may not have "given" it to him in a personal way. I have a contact number on my mouse cages so if there is a problem someone will call me. The animal supervisor has all my numbers in case there is a problem.

I have the personal cell phone numbers of many of the students I am doing work for- not because we're buddies, but because it's an easy way to get in touch. I have an office phone, but I'm rarely there- the same is true of them.

The more I read, the more I am becoming convinced that he was the technician assigned to take care of her mice. She may very well have given him her cell phone number to call her in case of a problem- she may also have had his for the same reason.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Well, it's been a while since grad school, but back in my day, techs/research assistants did have phone numbers for the grad students in case of problems. This was before cell phones and texting, but they emailed us whenever they were trying to reach us, if they couldn't get us on the phone. I don't think it's *that* weird that he would have her cell phone number. He was in charge of the mice she was using for her experiments. She would want to know if there was a problem.

On another note, I thought it was weird when I read (I think in the Yale Daily News) that someone said they used to see her wheeling her mice back and forth between Sterling and Amistad. I don't recall ever seeing anyone wheeling their mice around on the street around the med center.

I thought that was odd, too. At least the back and forth. Usually if mice go out, they don't come back. And you wrap them up so they're not visible on the street.

Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 02:15 AM
This is not unusual at all. I get the impression that people think Annie's work with the mice was unusual- it was not. Many mice are disease models-they are sick. You usually have to do some breeding to keep your colony going- most, if not all of the researchers would have some pregnant mice.

If this bothered him, he would have flipped the first month into that job.

Hi LabRat! I'm getting ready to go to bed, thought I'd respond before I go to sleep. I read that he and a group he was involved with in school raised money to donate to pregnant women and cancer research. That's the only reason I posted the above...I know it's a stretch, but just wanted to throw it out there to try to cover all ground. I have to get up in 5 hours to make my boys breakfast! I can't even believe I'm still on here...addicted I tell ya!

Labrat
09-17-2009, 02:39 AM
Hi, new here..took a couple of days to get approved.

I am familiar with the medical center at Yale. I can resolve a lot of these misconceptions.

1. Normally, researchers don't give out their personal cell phone numbers to custodial mouse techs. RC's job was to manage the mice colonies. That's what they do. They don't participate in research at all. If he sent her a text about managing a colony, it was likely because his girlfriend might see the text message and they were trying to hide a relationship.



Why would you think that? Sure, Dr. Bennett wouldn't, but someone who is working with the mice certainly might. What does participating in research have to do with it?

Here are the people who have my office, work cell, personal cell and home numbers:

The Animal Care Supervisors in three facilities
the animal care techs who take care of my mouse rooms in two facilities.
The overnight security guards in the building my lab is in.
The facilities people in the building my lab is in.

None of them participate in my research.

Security has called me at 10PM because my tank alarm went off, preventing the loss of 5 years of work.

An animal care tech called me on a Saturday because one of my mice died giving birth. I went in and was able to foster the pups and keep them alive. They would have been dead by Monday if she had not called.

The Animal Supervisor called me during a week off because a time sensitive shipping container arrived unexpectedly. I went in and unpacked it. Those samples could have been destroyed by the time I went back to work if he had not called.

I could go on..... they don't participate in my research, but they do know what's important to me.

Jersey*Girl
09-17-2009, 02:41 AM
Labrat, your info is limitless. Thank you.

Labrat
09-17-2009, 02:46 AM
Wait, so she had a 10:30 class? Can you share where you got that info, Sola? (Did everyone already know this except for me? I tried to keep up but I may have missed that detail)

Dr. Bennett, the head of her lab had a 10:30 class. I believe hers was at 2 or 2:30

justthinkin
09-17-2009, 02:49 AM
Whatever the motive, this guy is mentally unstable, and probably unable to weigh the value of a human life vs. those of lab mice. I'm an animal lover, but there's a line you don't cross.

Then again, maybe there was a sexual relationship here, and maybe he was obsessed, decided if he couldn't have her then no one else could have her. Perhaps a relationship was altogether imagined on his part.

Whatever his irrational reasoning, the life of a bright, young and attractive woman has been violently ended.

When JH said what she did about she and RC being together for financial reasons, that was probably the real truth, despite her adding the LOL after her statement.

Animal04216
09-17-2009, 03:37 AM
Knock the crap off with talking about Annies dress and implying she was permiscuous. Do not quote any of the posts either. I will be back tomorrow to clean up the rest of the mess........

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 04:18 AM
On Sept. 29, 2003 he was a senior at Branford High School when Det. Ronald Washington responded to a report of a dispute. The dispute was between the (now) lab tech and a female student.

“The two are in a relationship which [the girlfriend] wishes to terminate and [the male] does not wish to end it. [The male] did attempt to confront [the student] on this date and also wrote on her locker. The school will handle this incident concerning the locker and at the time of this report, [the lab tech] was advised to have no contact with” the female student.

The detective wrote that subsequently the girlfriend came with her mother to the station to speak to him.
An accusation that in high school Grant used force to have sex - rape accusation. Girl did not press charges.

She “wished to tell me of an incident that took place, however, did not want it pursued by this Department,” the detective wrote. “She stated that she had been having a sexual relationship with [the male] and that at one time [the male] did force her to have sex with him. The relationship did continue after that incident, however she is unsure of what he may do as a result of the break up.

“She was advised to contact this Department if he should make any contact with her and we would pursue criminal charges if the investigation warrants it. [The girlfriend] would not give any formal statement regarding the forced sex. It should be noted that [the male’s] parents were also contacted by this Detective and advised of the situation.”

No arrest was made because the young woman decided not to press charges.

My point in bringing this incident up once again is that we have a boy in high school who has been alleged to rape his girlfriend (force). Charges were dropped. If true, seems highly unlikely that Clark would go this many years with no other allegations, charges, or incidents using force. This young girl was frightened of what Clark would do as a result of a break up - she was fearful of him/ charges were dropped. I find it difficult to dismiss this information and wonder if he has continued his violent sexual ways and not been caught. Could Annie be a continuation of what started years ago for Clark? jmo

'Ailina
09-17-2009, 04:30 AM
A compelling theory from a commenter on this article:


http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/news_wtnh_newhaven_person_interest_raymond_clark_p rofile_200909161741_rev1 (http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/news_wtnh_newhaven_person_interest_raymond_clark_p rofile_200909161741_rev1)

"...all buffed out----how bout steroid rage?"

I noticed Clark's pretty cut, too. He obviously works out. Makes me wonder...could he be on steroids? He IS an athlete (not implying all athletes do this).

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 04:44 AM
The COD was traumatic asphixiation but we don't know what other injuries she sustained... from media leaks we know there was blood on clothes found in the ceiling, a pair of bloody lab gloves, and blood on a laundry cart... All together that kind of hints (to me at least) that she sustained some injury like being beaten, etc....

(of course just a guess/thoughts)

This sounds horrific nursebeeme - poor beautiful Annie. She wanted to become a MD/PhD, contribute to society, and marry her one and only soul mate. This case is disturbing and so very sad.

missyjane77
09-17-2009, 06:55 AM
He's not a tech...it's not like he's a research assistant (usually bachelor's degree staff employees). He's an entry level employee (only experience required I believe is some type of animal handling class) who cleans mouse cages and delivers mice to the labs. They do not work with researchers directly other than to give them what they need for research. They don't monitor their research or anything else. When their mice die or they need more, they provide them.

Where I work, that is called an animal technician. I'm fully aware of the job and yes, even our animal care people have my number. If we have a sick or dead animal, I'm the primary contact and I have to know ASAP. If there is a problem with transport, they call the lab first and my cell second. I deal with people in this position daily. I know what they do and how they do it.

eyes4crime
09-17-2009, 07:30 AM
The Yale lab tech who’s a “person of interest” in the murder of grad student Annie Le was accused in a 2003 police report of forcing his high-school girlfriend to have sex with him — and vandalizing her locker when she dumped him, it was revealed yesterday.

The ex-girlfriend is “in total utter shock” that lab tech Raymond Clark is being eyed in bride-to-be Le’s slaying at a Yale research facility, according to a Facebook posting she made that was quoted by the New Haven Independent.

“I can’t believe this,” wrote the unidentified woman, who dated Clark when they were students in Branford, Conn. “I feel like I’m 16 all over again . . . Its jsut [sic] bringing back everything.”
------------------------
[bolded by me]
So now we learn, in addition to forceful sex (rape), he also trashed her locker? And she didn't press charges cause she feared how Raymond would get even (this was in high school with a 16yo!). My strong guess is that Raymond Clark has not been dormant regarding forceful sex, abusive relationships, and getting even.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/report_yale_lab_tech_forced_ex_into_AJL2tmpzL26j4B af4ZqxXL

awakewriter
09-17-2009, 08:32 AM
According to 9/17 8:25 a.m. presser, "workplace violence."

Waddles
09-17-2009, 08:36 AM
workplace major major snap not your average workplace violence

awakewriter
09-17-2009, 08:44 AM
workplace major major snap not your average workplace violence

Yeah. This is so bizarre.

I'm interested to find out if he planned it. If something annoyed him or made him angry and it became a much bigger thing in his head.

So strange, so very, very tragic.

Chili Fries
09-17-2009, 08:47 AM
workplace major major snap not your average workplace violence

Yeah it sounds like Annie not cleaning up after herself was the triggering factor.

Really, really sad that this guy didn't somehow get the mental health help he needed before his problems escalated into this horrible tragedy.

Waddles
09-17-2009, 09:01 AM
Yeah it sounds like Annie not cleaning up after herself was the triggering factor.

Really, really sad that this guy didn't somehow get the mental health help he needed before his problems escalated into this horrible tragedy.

I was thinking this too-so sad people don't recognise themselves as needing help-or especially their loved ones
I think it was about perceived mistreatment or mishandling of rats or non respect of protocol

Avery
09-17-2009, 09:09 AM
It may not have been "documented" workplace problems, but I suspected Annie talked about this loser to her friends and family. Probably something like, there is this freak I work with that cleans mice poo and takes his job waaaaaayyyyy too seriously. IMO, it's been about power all along. This guy who on a personal level when mad at someone could take his anger directly to them. When at work, he couldn't deal with the hierachy and that he was the lowest on the chain. He probably constantly tried to make his job more than what it was and Annie was there to put him in his place. Clearly, he is crazy, but how many of us all the time encounter "crazy", but we never know they would be capable of this. Scary really.

I may be way off base here, but I think he was so mad at her and it fueled so much hate toward her that he wasn't interested at all sexually. I don't think she was sexually assaulted.

Celt1997
09-17-2009, 09:23 AM
Yeah it sounds like Annie not cleaning up after herself was the triggering factor.

Really, really sad that this guy didn't somehow get the mental health help he needed before his problems escalated into this horrible tragedy.

I totally agree. There is always a sadness I feel in these types of cases, because it seems like they could have been avoided. I'm sure he knew he had a temper that could flare out of control, and he should have received help for it. I'm not sure, however, that he knew he was ever capable of killing someone. I think the "deflated" look in all of the pictures shows he really can't believe he's in this position. I wouldn't be surprised if things spiraled out of control, and he didn't realize the severity of his actions until it was too late.

So sad that it all came down to this. Annie won't be able to live her life anymore, and Ray will not either. I always hope that these cases can become positives for others, who may decide to get help themselves. But, unfortunately, the nature of society is to be RE-active, and not PRO-active, so many will still go untreated, and living in denial.

Stephens
09-17-2009, 09:31 AM
He probably beat her and murdered her because he is unable to cope with life's frustrations and she'd be no match for him. Reminds me of how people would say that during WWI, when many Americans were anti-German, you'd hear of people kicking Dachsunds but not German Shepherds. This woman was the size of a middle-schooler. You better believe there are men who have frustrated him, even berated him at work and yet he almost certainly never lashed out at them violently. But he decided to take it out on a small, petite person who didn't stand a chance against him.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was an animal abuser, too.

As for the previous rape allegation (Let's call it rape rather than "forceful sex," which makes it sound like he just strongly persuaded her), I have no doubt that this man has "issues" with women. It probably just allowed him to dehumanize Le that much more easily.

PoppyH
09-17-2009, 09:36 AM
He will probably claim it was an accident, if he even takes responsibility at all, hopefully he will plead guilty, or he is going to say she attacked him first and he defended himself, I believe he just blew a gasket and killed her in a fit of rage

SuziQ
09-17-2009, 09:40 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati..._annie_le.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/09/17/2009-09-17_lab_tech_raymond_clark_under_arrest_in_the_murd er_of_yale_student_annie_le.html)

(snip)
Lewis said Le, 24, was not sexually assaulted. He called her strangulation death a case of "workplace violence," but would not elaborate on what might have triggered the attack.

Track292008
09-17-2009, 09:45 AM
Does anyone know how long Annie intended to be absent from Yale after her wedding?

I read that she and Jon were planning a honeymoon trip to Greece, but I don't know whether that trip was planned for immediately after the wedding, or for later on -- perhaps during a semester break when it would presumably be more convenient for both of them.

I ask because of the comments I've read here about the role of lab technicians and other non-professional people in caring for the mice in the absence of the scientist who is actually in charge of the research. I can see, especially if she were to be gone for a week or two, that it would seem reasonable for her to meet with RC that fateful Tuesday morning. MOO.

I also think that if she were afraid of RC, she might have asked someone from Bennett's lab/office to accompany her to Amistad. MOO.

Again, my thanks to Labrat (and others) for the education I've been receiving here about scientific research procedures!