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debirlfan
09-18-2009, 01:24 AM
A thread for quick questions, rather than discussion. (hope that's ok)

I'm not sure where to look to see if this has been addressed, but perhaps Labrat or someone would know... in his job as animal tech, would RC have been subject to drug testing? And if he would have been, would it only have been for 'recreational' drugs, or would he have been tested for steroids?

JBean
09-18-2009, 01:30 AM
Thanks for starting our Q&A thread.

This is not for discussion type subjective questions, but rather more factual and informational type questions with minimal discussion. So, either leave a question or leave an answer. it makes a great reference thread, so the less chit chat to wade through the more valuable it becomes.

Labrat
09-18-2009, 06:59 AM
A thread for quick questions, rather than discussion. (hope that's ok)

I'm not sure where to look to see if this has been addressed, but perhaps Labrat or someone would know... in his job as animal tech, would RC have been subject to drug testing? And if he would have been, would it only have been for 'recreational' drugs, or would he have been tested for steroids?

At my facility, no. I have not ever been drug tested in 5 institutions so far.

I do not know Yale's policy, though.

Skigirl
09-18-2009, 07:22 AM
I don't know about Yale's official policy (may be that we were all subject to random drug testing as a matter of boilerplate HR policy), but in my six years on the faculty, no one I knew or knew of (including techs, research assistants, faculty, students, other administrative staff, clerical, maintenance, etc.) was ever tested for drugs. Same for the other universities where I've been a student or worked.

passionflower
09-18-2009, 10:27 AM
Was the found 'bead' from necklace proven to be from Annie's necklace r could it be from someone who helped Clark clean up???

JBean
09-18-2009, 10:33 AM
Thanks for starting our Q&A thread.

This is not for discussion type subjective questions, but rather more factual and informational type questions with minimal discussion. So, either leave a question or leave an answer. it makes a great reference thread, so the less chit chat to wade through the more valuable it becomes.
Remember, this thread is not a discussion thread for subjective opinions on questions.

it is a reference thread for objective questions and directions to information.

amysmom
09-18-2009, 10:40 AM
Was the found 'bead' from necklace proven to be from Annie's necklace r could it be from someone who helped Clark clean up???

Supposedly, LE claims it is her necklace so she was found with it on or if broken off it was placed in with her minus the one bead?

ETA..In the tape I can not see the necklace cos the quality is so poor but that does not mean it is not around her neck.

Noway
09-18-2009, 11:21 AM
Was the found 'bead' from necklace proven to be from Annie's necklace r could it be from someone who helped Clark clean up???

Investigators found a single bead from a necklace she was wearing in the lab area where she was last seen. They also found tiny blood droplets in that area.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-yale-student18-2009sep18,0,3083836.story

If her necklace was missing a bead (or beads) and they found a bead that visually looked like the beads on the necklace, perhaps it's only assumption that the bead found was from her necklace. I expect that will do tests to determine that the bead did come from her necklace, but have not seen any test results that "prove" it (too early?). I also recall LE saying there was only one person involved in this crime.

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 11:39 AM
1. It's been widely reported that Raymond Clark's sister, brother in law, and girlfriend all worked for the same lab at Yale. Does this mean they all worked at the same exact location meaning on the same basement level floor or could it mean they worked the same job but at different locations?

2. Are Raymond's parents still together or are they divorced. If they're divorced, when did it happen?

3. If Raymond returned home wearing different clothes than what he left in, where could he have gotten them? Has it been reported that he returned home wearing different clothes of his, or could they have been "loaned" to him by somebody else?

4. Why would the police demean his position on national television knowing full well that he has other duties besides "just cleaning cages" and knowing that there are other members of his family that hold the same position and work for Yale? Hmmm...

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 11:45 AM
1. Did JH ever receive an engagement ring from RC? Or was the proposal just a verbal agreement?

2. Did RC ever attend college?

3. Was he an academic or college prep major in hs?

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 12:23 PM
Some more questions ...

1. Do/Did RC, his sister and brother in law, and JH all have the same boss?

2. If so, is he being reprimanded now that 4 people that work under him aren't there for work? Surely that makes for a heavier workload...somebody has to pick up the slack...

3. Who is taking care of the animals now that the basement lab is closed off...or could the animals have been moved to a different room?

4. Have the animals been checked to see if any dna or forensic evidence was left on their fur, droppings, or in their cages?

5. Could the argument actually have been about overcrowding of a colony which could promote a high level of ammonia and allow for disease to set in?

6. Are the pregnant mice housed in the basement lab? Or do the investigators keep them seperate at their own offices/lab?

OHdoc
09-18-2009, 12:24 PM
Why was there a change in RC's lawyer(s)?

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 12:39 PM
One more question that's bugging me. What is the cancer rate in Annie's mice? (not to be taken out of context - this goes with the territory of research & I support research)

f_stills
09-18-2009, 12:39 PM
3. If Raymond returned home wearing different clothes than what he left in, where could he have gotten them? Has it been reported that he returned home wearing different clothes of his, or could they have been "loaned" to him by somebody else?

A New York Daily News article from this morning seemed to hint that he actually left the building for an extended period of time following the alarm.

A surveillance camera captured Clark leaving the building following a fire alarm that he may have set off to give himself an excuse for leaving in the middle of a workday.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html#ixzz0RTdKnMT5

I'm not sure on how to interpret the wording of "leaving in the middle of a workday." It WAS reported that he was in the building after hours that same Tuesday. He might have gone home after the alarm, changed clothes, went back to the building after hours. The mass of people waiting outside the building because of the alarm might have allowed him to steal away unnoticed (unless you're a cop sifting through video footage of him, anyway).

4. Why would the police demean his position on national television knowing full well that he has other duties besides "just cleaning cages" and knowing that there are other members of his family that hold the same position and work for Yale? Hmmm...

Interesting!

OHdoc
09-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Some more questions ...

1. Do/Did RC, his sister and brother in law, and JH all have the same boss?

2. If so, is he being reprimanded now that 4 people that work under him aren't there for work? Surly that makes for a heavier workload...somebody has to pick up the slack...

3. Who is taking care of the animals now that the basement lab is closed off...or could the animals have been moved to a different room?

4. Have the animals been checked to see if any dna or forensic evidence was left on their fur, droppings, or in their cages?

5. Could the argument actually have been about overcrowding of a colony which could promote a high level of ammonia and allow for disease to set in?

6. Are the pregnant mice housed in the basement lab? Or do the investigators keep them seperate at their own offices/lab?

1. If they all had the same job title and they were in the same animal facility, then yes they would have the same supervisor. Each animal facility typically has a facility manager/operations manager.

2. It's not the supervisor's fault, so probably not reprimanded. Typically, they will have a number of options to cover the duties: (a) call in workers from other facilities on campus to pitch in; (b) overtime; (c) modify scheduled duties; and probably others that do not come to mind.

3. My understanding is that they are allowing essential research personnel to enter to perform essential tasks.

4. Why?

5. If there was an argument that escalated and if the argument was about animal health/cage cleanliness, there could be any number of reasons for such an argument, including but not limited to overcrowding, not weaning pups at the appropriate time (if this was a breeding colony), not changing the cage when too dirty, etc.

6. Lab animals are typically not housed for long periods of time in the researchers' laboratories; they are housed in the vivarium (which is the basement lab that everyone is referring to) where the cages can be changed, the environment is controlled (humidity, temp, light:dark cycle), where the animal health technicians can monitor health, etc. Labs that do house animals outside of a vivarium/lab animal facility have to be inspected regularly.

OHdoc
09-18-2009, 12:50 PM
One more question that's bugging me. What is the cancer rate in Annie's mice? (not to be taken out of context - this goes with the terriroty of research & I support research)

Has it been established that Annie was working on a cancer project? My understanding is that the enzyme on which the Bennett lab was focused had relevance to a number of diseases, including cancer and diabetes.

Assuming Annie's project was on cancer, and assuming the mouse colony was a breeding colony, I would expect that these mice were genetically engineered mice (i.e. mice in which the enzyme of interest was overexpressed or knocked-out). This genetic manipulation would make the mice more or less likely to get cancer, either spontaneously or in response to treatment with a carcinogen. One would have to know much more about the research and about this animal model to make any intelligent comment about the tumor incidence.

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 12:57 PM
More questions:

1. When RC left the building, and it was captured on camera, was he in street clothes or scrubs?

2. Could this have been when the young lady (I think it was law enforcement or a reporter that informed the public of this) saw a guy "with a reddish tint to his hair & had some blood spots on his clothes"?

3. Since it's being widely reported that RC is incredibly anal, and if he was in street clothes when he exited the building during the fire alarm, what would be his reason to not follow proper protocol? Wouldn't he have changed into scrubs after entering his place of work?

4. Could somebody else have started the argument with Annie but maybe RC is the one that took it to the next level?

MWright
09-18-2009, 12:59 PM
1. Did JH ever receive an engagement ring from RC? Or was the proposal just a verbal agreement?

His two lifelong friends were on Larry King last night and one friend said that he wasn't aware of the engagement. So either word hadn't been spread OR it wasn't all that official.

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 01:00 PM
Has it been established that Annie was working on a cancer project? My understanding is that the enzyme on which the Bennett lab was focused had relevance to a number of diseases, including cancer and diabetes.

Assuming Annie's project was on cancer, and assuming the mouse colony was a breeding colony, I would expect that these mice were genetically engineered mice (i.e. mice in which the enzyme of interest was overexpressed or knocked-out). This genetic manipulation would make the mice more or less likely to get cancer, either spontaneously or in response to treatment with a carcinogen. One would have to know much more about the research and about this animal model to make any intelligent comment about the tumor incidence.

That's not what I'm saying at all...only that on some of the docs I came across, it was noted that certain cells were being overcome, cancer, etc. Your answer is my logic...literally. Annie's thesis was on diabetes. We can't discuss this b/c this is a non-discussion thread. Please forgive me. I'll msg later when I get it all together. I'm brainstorming. I appreciate every answer you've given me. You're truly an asset to this forum! Thank you.

noracrub
09-18-2009, 01:04 PM
1. Did JH ever receive an engagement ring from RC? Or was the proposal just a verbal agreement?

2. Did RC ever attend college?

3. Was he an academic or college prep major in hs?

(1) Maybe the GF's facebook page would answer this, if anyone saved it before it went private

(2) Yesterday in the New York Times—Demanding Job in a Divided Lab, Then a Murder (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/18/nyregion/18yale.html?_r=1&hp%3Cbr%3E)

Mr. Clark’s brother-in-law and sister also work as animal technicians, and she recommended Mr. Clark for a position in the washing center in 2004, the year he graduated from high school in nearby Branford.

The university asks that technicians have familiarity with animals. Mr. Clark confided in one co-worker that he had listed on his résumé that he had worked on a farm, even though he had not, the co-worker said. The co-worker spoke on the condition of anonymity because Yale officials had instructed employees not to speak with the news media.

(3) Wouldn't know how to check that. Would his HS yearbook answer that?

f_stills
09-18-2009, 01:21 PM
1. Did JH ever receive an engagement ring from RC? Or was the proposal just a verbal agreement?

3. Was he an academic or college prep major in hs?

1. We know from a now-deleted wedding planning website they-- or at least JH-- had an exact date in mind, early December 2011. As far as a ring or any other information about their wedding plans, I don't think much else has been released.

3. In terms of info about his high school academic performance, it's been found that in his last year in high school he made good enough grades to be distinguished with "honors"-- which is not the same thing as "honor roll." That means he did well enough to be commended for his grades, but was not actually in the top tier.

MWright
09-18-2009, 01:52 PM
Has there been any news or info about a memorial service for Le?

Kat
09-18-2009, 02:25 PM
A thread for quick questions, rather than discussion. (hope that's ok)

I'm not sure where to look to see if this has been addressed, but perhaps Labrat or someone would know... in his job as animal tech, would RC have been subject to drug testing? And if he would have been, would it only have been for 'recreational' drugs, or would he have been tested for steroids?

Debirlfan, I didn't see information published that addressed your question about drug screening, but I did find an article about the job screening process itself.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=70166

It may or may not help you find the answer you're looking for.

Also thought I'd bring this here, it is the website for the prescreening process for employment at Yale:
http://www.yale.edu/hronline/careers/screening/index.html

noracrub
09-18-2009, 02:32 PM
Has there been any news or info about a memorial service for Le?
Yale fiance's NY synagogue plans memorial service (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gRrMAEAr09nhoPgk1q9NLJLEs83QD9APS0T03)

HUNTINGTON, N.Y. — A memorial service for the victim in the Yale killing is planned at her fiance's New York temple between the upcoming Jewish high holidays.

Cantor Sandra Sherry says Temple Beth El in Huntington wants "to create a private memorial service" for 24-year-old Annie Le.

Noway
09-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Why was there a change in RC's lawyer(s)?

My assumption is because he went from being a person of interest in a murder investigation to a person charged with first degree murder (death penalty case).

Also, he asked for a lawyer when being questioned:

Cops and FBI agents interviewed the lab tech several times before Tuesday night. At one point, he stopped talking and asked for a lawyer, the New Haven Register (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+Haven+Register) reported.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/15/2009-09-15_cops_set_to_reveal_yale_student_annie_le_cause_ of_death_hope_to_make_arrest_tues.html#ixzz0RU9Ktr PA)


I don't know whether David Dworski is his current lawyer but he was prior to his arrest and as of September 16.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6838658.ece

On Wednesday, attorney David Dworski confirmed he was representing Clark.
"[Neither] my client nor I will be making any comments. We are working and cooperating with authoritiies (sic) on this investigation," Dworski told ABC News.


Here is Dworksi's website
http://dworskilaw.com/criminaldefense.html

General Practice of Law with emphasis on:

Real Estate Purchases & Sales, DWI Defense, Personal Injury Law and Criminal Defense Law.
I am able to represent most Mortgage Lenders.
I defend DWI cases anywhere in Connecticut and receive many of my cases as referrals from other attorneys.
I have Settled or Tried to Verdict Hundreds of Personal Injury Cases;
I presented and won the first Criminal DNA Case decided by the Connecticut Supreme Court.
I speak fluent spanish, as does my litigation coordinator Susie Teixiera.

Noway
09-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Who is RC's new lawyer? It seems he has had David Dworski since the beginning.

The lawyer Clark hired to represent him in his dealings with police, David Dworski, is a solo legal practitioner whose general legal practice encompasses real estate (http://www.associatedcontent.com/theme/738/real_estate.html) DWI defense, foreclosure, wills and trusts, estates, criminal defense, personal injury and motor vehicle law. After graduating from University of Bridgeport School of Law (since renamed Quinnipiac University School of Law), Dworski opened a private practice. He notes on his website that he presented and won the first criminal DNA case decided by the Connecticut Supreme Court, expertise that may prove relevant if his client Raymond Clark is charged in the murder of the Yale graduate student.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2181019/raymond_clark_lawyered_up_dna_tests.html?cat=9

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 03:10 PM
Question:
If Raymond had help in concealing the body and/or cleaning up, could this "accomplice" be held liable (to an extent) for the cost of manpower, investigating, lab expenses, etc? It's a longshot, but I'm truly wondering b/c if somebody else knew, then they could have defrayed or prevented the long costly investigation. Anyone know? Didn't a hiker get lost in NH and authorities sued for the cost, or fined him, or something like that?

Noway
09-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Who is RC's new lawyer? It seems he has had David Dworski since the beginning.

The lawyer Clark hired to represent him in his dealings with police, David Dworski, is a solo legal practitioner whose general legal practice encompasses real estate (http://www.associatedcontent.com/theme/738/real_estate.html) DWI defense, foreclosure, wills and trusts, estates, criminal defense, personal injury and motor vehicle law. After graduating from University of Bridgeport School of Law (since renamed Quinnipiac University School of Law), Dworski opened a private practice. He notes on his website that he presented and won the first criminal DNA case decided by the Connecticut Supreme Court, expertise that may prove relevant if his client Raymond Clark is charged in the murder of the Yale graduate student.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2181019/raymond_clark_lawyered_up_dna_tests.html?cat=9

Attorney David Dworski declined to answer questions about the his client or the case, including whether his client denies having anything to do with the Le homicide.

He issued only a one-sentence statement: “We’re committed to proceeding appropriately with the authorities with whom we are in regular communication.”

Also, two New Haven public defenders, Joe Lopez and Beth Merkin, are providing assistance.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2...9632844012.txt (http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt)

Found this:

Clark appeared in court with two public defenders. One of the attorneys, Joseph Lopez, said they would be handling Clark's case, which had previously been handled by a different lawyer. Lopez said he was still reviewing the case and declined to comment.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551342,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime

Seems like he went from public defender to other public defenders and then added Dworski?

Sloof
09-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Seems like he went from public defender to other public defenders and then added Dworski?

Dworski was only retained for the first round of DNA tests, and the 2 Public Defenders have been on the case since the arrest.

Noway
09-18-2009, 04:14 PM
Dworski was only retained for the first round of DNA tests, and the 2 Public Defenders have been on the case since the arrest.

One of the attorneys, Joseph Lopez, said they would be handling Clark's case, which had previously been handled by a different lawyer. ~snipped from above~

Who was the original public defender? (I'm assuming it was a public defender.) That may be the reason OHdoc is asking about a change in lawyers.

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 04:24 PM
Does anyone know RC's denomination?..that is, if he has a religion... (not sure if it's even important)

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 06:10 PM
It's been stated that Raymond was obsessed with his green pen (that he used & carried everywhere). Psycologically speaking, is there anything in the psyche linking an off-balance to the color green? I mean, why green ink? Couldn't he have just been ok with a green pen that had black ink? Why green ink, that would stand out and be noticed? Is that why? Hypothetically speaking, that is ...

Noway
09-18-2009, 07:10 PM
There is now a legal counsel thread.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4175621&posted=1#post4175621

Waddles
09-18-2009, 07:13 PM
It's been stated that Raymond was obsessed with his green pen (that he used & carried everywhere). Psycologically speaking, is there anything in the psyche linking an off-balance to the color green? I mean, why green ink? Couldn't he have just been ok with a green pen that had black ink? Why green ink, that would stand out and be noticed? Is that why? Hypothetically speaking, that is ...

Yeah I think that's it, black blue are common and red too glaring or inappropriate- so stand out and be different with green- be respected as different
Not sure about the psychological aspect of the colour green though :)

Labrat
09-18-2009, 07:45 PM
Yeah I think that's it, black blue are common and red too glaring or inappropriate- so stand out and be different with green- be respected as different
Not sure about the psychological aspect of the colour green though :)


I hope not- green is my favorite color. It could be that he used it so the writing would stand out if he made notes on a cage card. I do that.

Turbododger
09-18-2009, 10:07 PM
What was the purpose of the Asian Appreciation Club Clarke was a member of in High School?

Turbododger
09-18-2009, 10:08 PM
How did Clarke get Annie's cell phone number to send a text to?

Noway
09-18-2009, 10:16 PM
Conjecture on my part: Annie's cell phone was listed as part of the lab employee phone list and the high school Asian Appreciation Club focused on learning about the Asian culture.


Working on the Who's Who: Annie Le Who's Who NO DISCUSSION PLEASE - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (in progress)

ETA: Although Annie is not listed here, this is the kind of list I was thinking of.
http://info.med.yale.edu/pharm/chairman/lab.htm

Jersey*Girl
09-18-2009, 10:57 PM
Raymond's girlfriend worked in the same lab as him.

Link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/09/16/2009-09-16_person_of_interest_raymond_clarks_fiance_jennif er_hromadka_has_defended_him_befo.html

Snippet:
Hromadka, 23, described her live-in beau -- who works in the same Yale lab as her boyfriend -- as a gullible but loving guy who has eyes for no one but her.


:biggrin: (wanted to point out that error is NY Daily News' error - not mine, so step off SS...jkjkjk...) :biggrin:

Sola.N
09-19-2009, 01:40 AM
My apologies if these have been asked and answered elsewhere. Here are my questions:

1. When did Annie Le and her fiance become engaged?
2. Which month and year did she arrive at Yale?
3. Did she have internships in summer semesters of both 2008 and 2009?

Basically, I'm trying to get at which months she would have been at Yale, when she would have been away, and when her engagement would've become known in her circle of acquaintances at Yale.

Noway
09-19-2009, 02:04 AM
She and Jon met at Rochester IIRC. Le and Widawsky met in college. Fisk was friends with them both. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/crimesider/entry5313872.shtml

She was a 2007 graduate of Rochester University, did summer project at NIH (bone tissue engineering) not sure what year that was. Maybe 2006 (same link as above).

Her engagement was announced in the Yale paper the same time as the article she wrote -- February 2009: Annie Le, (Pharmacology 2nd year and B staffer) announced her engagement to Jonathan Widawsky, grad student at Columbia. Wedding in September 2009.

B Magazine – Yale University student-run publication for which Annie Le wrote February article (Crime and Safety in New Haven). http://bbs.yale.edu/images/B10_1.pdf

Rhyme & Reason
09-19-2009, 02:41 AM
Why are the labs soundproof?

Sloof
09-19-2009, 03:50 AM
Correction recommended on Who's Who page:

Robert Linh Nguyen and Ngoc-tuyet Bui – Annie Le’s aunt and uncle who raised her (first reported as being her parents). Her biological mother is Vivien Le.

bio-mom's name is spelled "Vivian"

rdm64
09-19-2009, 07:40 AM
How did Clarke get Annie's cell phone number to send a text to?

she probably gave it to him. they probably had many normal email and text exchanges.

Jersey*Girl
09-19-2009, 12:58 PM
2. Are Raymond's parents still together or are they divorced. If they're divorced, when did it happen?

Quoting myself...Found an answer to this question...link & snippet below:

Quote
Clark's parents, Raymond John Clark Jr. and Diane Clark, are separated, according to a person familiar with the family who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the nature of the charges.
Unquote

http://news.aol.com/article/car-seized-from-motel-where-yale-suspect/677082

JBean
09-19-2009, 01:03 PM
Just a reminder this is not a speculative thread. if w do not know the answer there should not be any :)

where this post lands on the thread has no bearing on whatever post it may fall after.

Jersey*Girl
09-19-2009, 01:17 PM
When did Raymond Clark's parents become separated? Have they started official divorce proceedings?

Noway
09-19-2009, 01:45 PM
Who's Who Discussion Thread - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Created a link to discuss Who's Who and to let me know of errors so we don't clog this thread. You can also access the discussion thread through the Who's Who sticky.

noracrub
09-19-2009, 01:47 PM
1. It's been widely reported that Raymond Clark's sister, brother in law, and girlfriend all worked for the same lab at Yale. Does this mean they all worked at the same exact location ...
2. Are Raymond's parents still together or are they divorced. If they're divorced, when did it happen?
3. If Raymond returned home wearing different clothes than what he left in, where could he have gotten them? ...
4. Why would the police demean his position on national television knowing full well that he has other duties besides "just cleaning cages" ...

According to Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552521,00.html?test=latestnews): Clark's parents, Raymond John Clark Jr. and Diane Clark, are separated, according to a person familiar with the family who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the nature of the charges.
It seems possible that RL's father lived with him, so when he left the Middletown apt and moved to the motel in Cromwell, the father would have had to move also. Maybe the girlfriend threw him out? According to the AP (http://hosted2.ap.org/txdam/2328593e932a4d72bf7e9798dc61d072/Article_2009-09-15-US-Yale-Killing/id-p1fbfd1b355eb4155ad41a2df6d94a16d):
A resident of the complex, Rick Tarallo said he, his wife and 6-month-old daughter live in a unit next to Clark and his fiancee, Jennifer Hromodka.

He said the couple was "really quiet" and lived with an older man, whom he speculated was one of their fathers.

Noway
09-23-2009, 11:13 PM
What is Ray's sister's name who works at the Yale lab? Answer: Denise Kent

What is Ray's brother-in-law's name who works at the Yale lab? Answer: Shawn Kent

TIA

Answer was posted in the Who's Who discussion thread. Thanks to Sloof!

Invisible
09-24-2009, 01:33 AM
I am confused about what would have been Annie's job duties in the lab as opposed to what Raymond's job duties were. It would seem to me that he would have been in charge of keeping cages clean, etc. I am unclear about what Annie could have done (or not done) that would have angered him. It doesn't seem to me that she would have been charged with "mouse cleanliness" in any way, it would have been his job.

Not wearing booties, lab coats, etc. in the lab would have endangered her research, so it seems that she would have been careful about that.

What am I missing?

Sloof
09-24-2009, 02:16 AM
What is Ray's sister's name who works at the Yale lab?

What is Ray's brother-in-law's name who works at the Yale lab?

TIA

Clark's fiancee, sister Denise Kent and brother-in-law Shawn Kent are also animal lab technicians. Yale spokesman Tom Conroy said they remain employed by the university, but he would not say whether they've returned to work. Clark was suspended after his arrest last week.


Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/jessica-delrocco-raymond_n_296032.html

JL50ish
09-24-2009, 09:43 AM
Did anyone else hear yesterday that LE is exploring the possibility that Clark was using steroids and this may have been the result of 'roid rage?

(I heard a brief mention, but no details.)

JL50ish
09-24-2009, 09:46 AM
Does anyone know if that Tuesday was going to be Annie's last day to work before her wedding?

I heard that relatives were arriving the next day in NYC (the location of the wedding), so possibly Clark told her that he needed to discuss how the rats would be cared for while she was gone. Does anyone know if Annie was going to work the rest of the week?

Emily Booth
09-24-2009, 07:03 PM
Does anyone know if that Tuesday was going to be Annie's last day to work before her wedding?

I heard that relatives were arriving the next day in NYC (the location of the wedding), so possibly Clark told her that he needed to discuss how the rats would be cared for while she was gone. Does anyone know if Annie was going to work the rest of the week?

It's not really clear? Maybe someone else can do better? Meanwhile, here's some reported info on the wedding plans:

“Lucky I’m in love with my best friend,” Le wrote in a posting on Facebook, one of several about the marriage, according to the Register. Others included details about the ceremony, the reception and the honeymoon in Greece. foxnews.com

Family friend Joelle Ward said Sunday that Ngoc-Tuyet Bui always spoke proudly of Le, a high achiever all through school, and that Bui and Le had recently discussed both the excitement and stress of planning a wedding.

"They were very pleased that she was getting married -- and to whom she was marrying," Ward said.

Le's cousin David Nguyen said that Le and her fiance had come to Santa Ana this summer for a reception involving dozens of relatives who couldn't travel to New York for the wedding. The bride-to-be wore a white wedding dress, Nguyen said.

The wedding was "something she was looking forward to," he said. To her family, the notion that she'd had cold feet and run away was absurd. "We would say that would be the last case." chicagotribune.com

Skigirl
09-24-2009, 07:11 PM
Does anyone know if that Tuesday was going to be Annie's last day to work before her wedding?

I heard that relatives were arriving the next day in NYC (the location of the wedding), so possibly Clark told her that he needed to discuss how the rats would be cared for while she was gone. Does anyone know if Annie was going to work the rest of the week?

I don't know for sure either, but most Tuesday classes also meet on Thursdays and if she was a TA, she may have planned to stay in New Haven through her morning class on Thursday but leave right afterward without going to the lab -- which would mean that Tuesday was to be her second to last day in the lab, Wed. was to be her last in the lab, Thursday her last teaching day.

Emily Booth
09-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Add'l wedding info:

Deborah Kiley (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Deborah+Kiley), owner of Deborah’s Hairloft in Huntington, was planning to do Le’s hair and makeup this morning. “She wanted a slick back bun and very simple makeup,” Kiley said. “She wanted everything perfect.”


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/13/2009-09-13_details_of_the_canceled_wedding_of_.html#ixzz0S 4PX4vi9



It's not really clear when the guests were arriving? They could've started arriving Thursday or Friday. Upon re-reading the article, if Annie had booked a mani/pedi in Huntingon Friday, then her last day in New Haven would be Thursday. This jibes w/ Skigirl's post above!

Labrat
09-24-2009, 08:03 PM
I am confused about what would have been Annie's job duties in the lab as opposed to what Raymond's job duties were. It would seem to me that he would have been in charge of keeping cages clean, etc. I am unclear about what Annie could have done (or not done) that would have angered him. It doesn't seem to me that she would have been charged with "mouse cleanliness" in any way, it would have been his job.

Not wearing booties, lab coats, etc. in the lab would have endangered her research, so it seems that she would have been careful about that.

What am I missing?

If he were the room tech, he would be responsible for changing cages, providing adequate food and water, caging supplies for weaning. The researcher is (usually) responsible for weaning their own animals, and for cleaning up after their own work. Cages must be opened inside a hood, and you are responsible for cleaning up any spilled bedding, mouse feces, etc. and wiping down the hood when you are finished. You usually must take dirty empty cages to a specific area for cleaning, make sure you put any syringes into the sharps container, any dead animals must be disposed of properly.

Not cleaning up after yourself makes extra work for the room tech and annoys and can endanger the research of people sharing the room.
I can tell you from my own experience there are people who do not clean up after themselves, open cages outside the hood, leave a pile of dirty cages on the floor, leave cages overcrowded...

Emily Booth
09-24-2009, 10:09 PM
Well, it's my turn to ask a question -- what day was RC initially interviewed by the FBI? Wednesday Sept 8? Did the polygraph take place the same day?

Noway
09-25-2009, 01:20 PM
Well, it's my turn to ask a question -- what day was RC initially interviewed by the FBI? Wednesday Sept 8? Did the polygraph take place the same day?

September 8 was Tuesday. She was reported missing around 9 by roommate but case file has time as 2240 (10:40 p.m.)

When Clark was initially interviewed by federal agents shortly after Le was reported missing, he acknowledged seeing Le in the laboratory, the source said. He then was asked to take a polygraph test, which he failed, sources said.

Federal authorities also issued polygraph tests to anyone who had access to the laboratories, including Clark's girlfriend, Jennifer Hromadka, who is also a animal lab technician. She passed her polygraph test, the source said.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

Still looking for exact dates.

IIRC, this was the day after Annie disappeared, September 9, that he was cleaning up, putting cleaning supplies away.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/19/news/new_haven/a1_--_annie19.txt

Clark became a potential suspect early in the investigation. Even as FBI agents were scouring 10 Amistad St. for any sign of Le, who disappeared Sept. 8 and was last seen entering the building. Clark was seen cleaning up in an area where authorities now believe Le was killed.

During questioning, agents noticed injuries to his chest, arms and head that suggested he could have been in a struggle, and he failed a polygraph test, sources said.

Sept. 9: Search For Le expands, more than 100 agents involved http://www.wfsb.com/news/20817193/detail.html

FBI involved as of September 10 (maybe before). http://newhaven.fbi.gov/pressrel/2009/nh091009.htm

September 10, 2009 2:15 PM
State police with bloodhounds searched the area where Le was last seen, and authorities were continuing to search nearby, Yale Police Chief James Perotti said in a statement. The FBI was assisting, and investigators also were reviewing images from closed-circuit cameras, Perotti said. Her fiance, professors, colleagues, friends and family also were helping, Perotti said. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/crimesider/entry5300869.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

September 11, 2009 9:58 AM
Asked about the possibility of foul play, Yale spokesman Tom Conroy said Thursday, “There's no evidence of it at this time.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/11/crimesider/entry5302889.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

FBI had identified a person of interest by September 12. http://www.courant.com/news/breaking...,1443333.story (http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-bloody-clothes-found-in-search-for-student,0,1443333.story)

September 14, 2009 4:30 PM
The source told CBS News’ correspondent Randall Pinkston that the suspect has failed at least one polygraph lie detector test and possibly more. The suspect has not been formally charged, but is not at large.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/14/crimesider/entry5310688.shtml

PatientOne
09-25-2009, 01:48 PM
Will RC's HS girlfriend's rape story be admissible testimony in the trial? She also hinted in a Good Morning America interview recently that he used other means of control when they were dating (choking, beating???) but said LE has asked her not to comment in detail. Does there have to be proof (like photos of bruises sustained) of any other means he used or would her testimony be enough (if it's even allowed)?

Emily Booth
09-25-2009, 06:59 PM
Thanks Noway! And, thank you for catching my mistake!

It looks like RC was interviewed either the 9th or 10th? I think by the 11th, the same info about the FBI was being repeated.

Noway
09-25-2009, 07:31 PM
Thanks Noway! And, thank you for catching my mistake!

It looks like RC was interviewed either the 9th or 10th? I think by the 11th, the same info about the FBI was being repeated.

It's my belief, based on what I found today, that September 9 was their interview (LE saw him cleaning up); September 10 was the polygraph (of several people who'd been in building) and by September 11, media reports were talking about a person of interest who had scratches, bruises, etc., and who had failed the polygraph. LOL and I know we're not supposed to post "I thinks" but not one dang reporter could finish a sentence with "was interviewed by FBI on _____ and failed a polygraph on September _____." :rolleyes:

And just so I have them where I can find them ... I broke the link so the video isn't actually showing (at least I hope that works)

FBI Helping In Search of Missing Girl
On Thursday, September 10, FBI searched Annie Le's off-campus apartment.
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=XtBVmXOvUjg&feature=related

Bloody clothing found in ceiling tiles on September 12.
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=XtBVmXOvUjg&feature=related

Police news conference on body found
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=UXeHXvttArE&feature=channel
Body found September 13; assuming it is Annie. Introduces various law enforcement types working on case. No further comment.

Emily Booth
09-25-2009, 09:01 PM
New question! And, if you made it thru my very looooong post at the evidence thread, you'll know why!

Did RC play softball Sun Sept 6 and Wed Sept 9?

Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:27 PM
Will RC's HS girlfriend's rape story be admissible testimony in the trial? She also hinted in a Good Morning America interview recently that he used other means of control when they were dating (choking, beating???) but said LE has asked her not to comment in detail. Does there have to be proof (like photos of bruises sustained) of any other means he used or would her testimony be enough (if it's even allowed)?

Is this the only relationship Ray Clark had besides the woman he is dating? Not to make light of abuses, but do we know at what stage in the relationship this alleged rape occurred? Were they in the midst of it? Was there friction between the two. I doubt it would be allowed because it happened many years earlier, and it sounds like a case of he said she said. Did they do a rape kit?

eyes4crime
09-25-2009, 11:34 PM
Is this the only relationship Ray Clark had besides the woman he is dating? Not to make light of abuses, but do we know at what stage in the relationship this alleged rape occurred? Were they in the midst of it? Was there friction between the two. I doubt it would be allowed because it happened many years earlier, and it sounds like a case of he said she said. Did they do a rape kit?

What does 'stage in a relationship' have to do with being raped?

Shlock Homes
09-25-2009, 11:44 PM
What does 'stage in a relationship' have to do with being raped?

I took my message out because it didn't fall in line with the direction of the thread. Is there a better place to reply?

Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 12:25 AM
When did the police actually start looking for her body?

From various articles around the internet including the one below, it sounds like they didn't start searching for her body in the chases until they got the blueprints, and they seem to point to Saturday. Am I to understand that from Wed to Fri, they didn't look in any of the wall chases in the basement?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/annie_le/index.html

"Four days after her disappearance, the police reportedly found bloody clothes above ceiling tiles in the lab building on Amistad. Armed with blueprints, investigators continued searching the building for clues"

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/national_world&id=7012062

"On Saturday, investigators took what appeared to be blueprints to the building."

Noway
09-26-2009, 06:46 PM
When did the police actually start looking for her body?

From various articles around the internet including the one below, it sounds like they didn't start searching for her body in the chases until they got the blueprints, and they seem to point to Saturday. Am I to understand that from Wed to Fri, they didn't look in any of the wall chases in the basement?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/annie_le/index.html

"Four days after her disappearance, the police reportedly found bloody clothes above ceiling tiles in the lab building on Amistad. Armed with blueprints, investigators continued searching the building for clues"

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/national_world&id=7012062

"On Saturday, investigators took what appeared to be blueprints to the building."

In the beginning, it was a missing person's case. They were not looking for a body. But after viewing surveillance videos, there was no evidence that Annie Le had left the building. They had no evidence that she was a victim of foul play.

At the point where they found bloody clothing (Saturday) they began to suspect foul play. When they found her body, it became a homicide.

The FBI spokesperson (Kim M.) said that evidence had been found, but that evidence had not yet been connected to Annie. And also said that the FBI was still not ready to determine whether this was a missing person's case or a case of foul play.

And then LE announced that a body had been found and while the body had not been officially IDd yet by ME, they were assuming it was Annie Le.

In answer to your Q, once they found the bloody clothing and suspected foul play, they looked again. I've read conflicting reports about whether the dogs brought in at first were S&R (vs. cadaver) dogs. S&R dogs would not have found her scent nor would they have smelled decomp. The dogs brought in on Sunday were cadaver dogs, and based on what I read, it was a dog who alerted to the place where she was found.

Here is evidence thread where we discussed this (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89032&page=7). (Might not be on right page ...)

Shlock Homes
09-26-2009, 07:08 PM
That is what is confusing about the status of the case. If they brought in dogs earlier, and they were confused with the scent because of the animals, when did that occur? Fri? or Sat? When they bring in cadaver dogs, I think that means they suspect homicide.

If she was not seen leaving the building on Tuesday, what would lead them to think she wasn't dead and somewhere in the lab? I haven't been able to get an adequate answer from anyone as to whether someone could exit that lab area without being seen on surveillance. Or was the camera disabled during a particular time, which led them to wonder if she had exited the building or was moved to another part of the building?

JBean
09-26-2009, 07:49 PM
Remember this is not a discussion thread. It is a Q&A for objective ,factual type questions as opposed to opinions. This thread is for reference.

thanks.

Noway
09-26-2009, 09:16 PM
That is what is confusing about the status of the case. If they brought in dogs earlier, and they were confused with the scent because of the animals, when did that occur? Fri? or Sat? When they bring in cadaver dogs, I think that means they suspect homicide.

If she was not seen leaving the building on Tuesday, what would lead them to think she wasn't dead and somewhere in the lab? I haven't been able to get an adequate answer from anyone as to whether someone could exit that lab area without being seen on surveillance. Or was the camera disabled during a particular time, which led them to wonder if she had exited the building or was moved to another part of the building?

Just a note: A search dog looks for a scent unique to Annie (alive). A cadaver dog looks for the scent of death (all dead bodies smell the same).


September 10:
The bloodhounds had been part of the search since Thursday, as had more than 100 law enforcement officials from the various agencies.

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2009/09/15/police-detain-yale-employee-suspected-killing/

September 10:
NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) The search for missing Yale student Annie Le expanded Thursday as police used search dogs and reviewed security camera footage in the hopes of finding the 24-year-old Yale University graduate student who vanished less than a week before her wedding.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/crimesider/entry5300869.shtml

AND

Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:41 a.m.
Police search 10 Amistad St. with bloodhounds

The Connecticut State Police have brought in bloodhounds to assist in the search for Le at 10 Amistad St., where she was last seen, and a detailed search of the surrounding area is continuing today, Perrotti wrote.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/crimesider/entry5300869.shtml

September 13:
Five days after Le's disappearance, members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully clothed body in the research building at 10 Amistad St. She was wearing the same clothes seen in a video of her entering the building last week, a source said.
...

Investigators had attempted to bring a cadaver dog into the building earlier in the week, but because of the large number of animals in the laboratory, the dogs were unable to do a thorough search.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

Read WS post that said they brought in German Shepherd (cadaver?) dogs on Friday and will try to find source for that comment.

See next post for info on when (media reports) cadaver dogs began searching.

Noway
09-26-2009, 09:20 PM
The big break in the case came from a German shepherd named Max and his handler, State Trooper Nick Leary. Max is trained in body recognition. He was first sent to search through large amounts of garbage that had been sent out for incineration. On Sunday he was taken to the basement of the Yale lab building, where he picked up Annie Le’s scent.

Max is a cadaver dog. Could it be that dog hit on garbage incinerator/contents and that is what lead to the Hartford facility?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/hc-yale-missing-student-annie-le-hartford-0913,0,330116.story

And then when he was taken to the basement, he hit on Annie's remains?


From this article, it looks like the cadaver dogs (German shepherds) were brought in on September 12. (September 13, 2009 By MATTHEW CHAYES AND ANDREW STRICKLER)

Investigators scoured the university research building yesterday, with dozens of officials going in and out of the lab on Amistad Street and searching it with German shepherds.http://www.newsday.com/news/search-for-missing-yale-student-moves-to-landfill-1.1443592?localLinksEnabled=false

This would make sense of the comment (same link as above) of Kim Mertz's comment:

Yesterday, Mertz confirmed that "items that potentially could be evidence have been seized" and would be tested. "None have yet been associated with Annie Le at this time," she said.

"We are not in the position today to conclude whether this is a missing person's case or whether criminality is involved," Mertz said.

I will categorically say a body has not been found," she said.The clothes were not Annie's ... so they didn't know whether they were connected to her case and whether foul play was involved.

BUT that would give them reason to bring in cadaver dogs, esp. because by now, they had not found surveillance of Annie leaving the building.

Shlock Homes
10-01-2009, 09:31 PM
I've seen bits and pieces of information about Annie Le's family situation and upbringing, but what about Ray Clark?

I just know he has a sister and brother in law. What about other family members? Did him and his sister grow up with parents? I haven't heard anything about his parents in the news, unless I missed it somewhere.

Edit: Okay, now that I think of it, his father did enter the picture when Clark was holed up in that Motel, if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, there hasn't been much talk about his family. Did he grow up in a middle class family household? Are his parents still married?

Chanler
10-01-2009, 10:37 PM
I've seen bits and pieces of information about Annie Le's family situation and upbringing, but what about Ray Clark?

I just know he has a sister and brother in law. What about other family members? Did him and his sister grow up with parents? I haven't heard anything about his parents in the news, unless I missed it somewhere.

Edit: Okay, now that I think of it, his father did enter the picture when Clark was holed up in that Motel, if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, there hasn't been much talk about his family. Did he grow up in a middle class family household? Are his parents still married?

Hi, Shlock Homes, I've wondered about the same thing. Except for the father's motel appearance (which I had forgotten about), they seem nowhere in sight. But at this stage of very overwhelming events, what could they do? What can one say, especially if the evidence seems compelling? They don't want reporters camping out at their doorstep, as in the Anthony case, and, in any case, the crime itself probably seems unthinkable to them.

Legal defenses for murder trials are very expensive, but it doesn't seem that his family is able to mount even a modest effort in that direction.

Noway
10-02-2009, 12:40 PM
Raymond John Clark Jr. and Diane Clark – Parents of Raymond John Clark III. Currently separated according to anonymous source. http://news.aol.com/article/car-seized-from-motel-where-yale-suspect/677082 (http://news.aol.com/article/car-seized-from-motel-where-yale-suspect/677082)

Denise Kent – Ray Clark's sister. She is also an animal lab technician employed by Yale University. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_296032.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/jessica-delrocco-raymond_n_296032.html)

Shawn Kent – Ray Clark's brother-in-law. He is also an animal lab technician employed by Yale University. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_296032.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/jessica-delrocco-raymond_n_296032.html)

See Who's Who for others in case. If someone is missing, add entry let me know.

eyes4crime
10-02-2009, 07:37 PM
Hi, Shlock Homes, I've wondered about the same thing. Except for the father's motel appearance (which I had forgotten about), they seem nowhere in sight. But at this stage of very overwhelming events, what could they do? What can one say, especially if the evidence seems compelling? They don't want reporters camping out at their doorstep, as in the Anthony case, and, in any case, the crime itself probably seems unthinkable to them.

Legal defenses for murder trials are very expensive, but it doesn't seem that his family is able to mount even a modest effort in that direction.

Hi there chanler: Pretty sure his father lives with Clark. Many nearby renters talked of an elderly man living with Clark and his girlfriend. Somebody established that person to be his dad. mho

Noway
10-03-2009, 05:19 PM
I've seen that Ray's parents are separated and that they are divorced. Does anyone which is correct?

In the link below, they refer to Ray Clark's FATHER as Raymond Clark III, but it is Ray himself who is III. His father would be Ray Clark Jr. Unless the III doesn't mean anything and they ARE both IIIs?


Clark's father, Raymond Clark III, had checked in to the motel before his son was arrested, but it was unclear whether he was still living there, according to the AP. He is divorced from the suspects mother, Diane Clark.

http://i.abcnews.com/US/annie-le-case-police-suspect-ray-clark/Story?id=8620313&page=2

Raymond John Clark Jr. and Diane Clark – Parents of Raymond John Clark III. Currently separated according to anonymous source. http://news.aol.com/article/car-seized-from-motel-where-yale-suspect/677082 (http://news.aol.com/article/car-seized-from-motel-where-yale-suspect/677082)

Emily Booth
10-03-2009, 05:58 PM
According to court documents, RC III listed his father as his emergency contact. His father was listed as Raymond Clark II.

According to zabasearch.com and Intellius, RC's father was born August, 1958 making him 51. There are quite a few RJCs in CT and I narrowed it down by checking the names of relatives. This particular hit (showing his age) had his wife as the only relative.

Noway
10-04-2009, 07:55 PM
According to court documents, RC III listed his father as his emergency contact. His father was listed as Raymond Clark II.

According to zabasearch.com and Intellius, RC's father was born August, 1958 making him 51. There are quite a few RJCs in CT and I narrowed it down by checking the names of relatives. This particular hit (showing his age) had his wife as the only relative.

What is the difference between Jr. and II?

I know a family whose male members were Senior, Junior, and III. Is it a personal preference between Jr. and II?

I vaguely remember reading about this but don't remember what the result was. It was about another suspect in a different case, who also happened to be a III.


ETA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_%28name%29

More than you want to know about suffixes. :)

Skigirl
10-05-2009, 08:08 PM
Noway, Traditionally, Jr. is used when the Sr. is the father. If the Sr. is a grandfather or uncle, you would use II.

Noway
10-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Noway, Traditionally, Jr. is used when the Sr. is the father. If the Sr. is a grandfather or uncle, you would use II.

Yes, thank you!

That link I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_%28name%29#Junior.2C_Senior.2C_and_Roman_nu merals described various scenarios ... including people who "make their own rules" like George Foreman who named his sons after him and added the appropriate suffix: George Edward Foreman II through VI.


In connection to the Jr. versus II issue (from that link):

In cases where a child is given the same name as a relative who is not the child's mother or father, it is considered correct to give the child a numerical suffix. For example, a child named John William Scott, after his uncle John William Scott, would properly be considered John William Scott II, as opposed to "Junior." Junior is not used because, in this example, John William Scott is not the child of John William Scott, senior. If John William Scott II were to have a son, he could then be named John William Scott III or John William Scott, Jr., depending upon the family. While it is not technically the social norm to use "II" in place of "junior" for children born directly to a same named parent, there is no social rule against the usage of "II" instead of "junior" for a same named child. Often, II is used by families who want to avoid having their children referred to as "junior" as a nickname.

I've seen Ray's father referred to as both, but would think Ray would know more what his father goes by (Ray II).