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voynich
09-19-2009, 01:29 AM
Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

Psychic profiler Carla Baron, medium John J. Oliver and paranormal investigator Patrick Burns take a terrifying descent into the heart of evil, as they see murders through the killer’s mind and the victim’s eyes.

Warning! Very very spooky! I got cold chills watching it. Poll should say these 3.

YouTube - X Files Theme Tune

YouTube - Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey - part 1 of 5

YouTube - Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey - part 2 of 5

YouTube - Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey - part 3 of 5

YouTube - Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey - part 4 of 5

YouTube - Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey - part 5 of 5

madeleine
09-19-2009, 04:37 AM
Funny,there are so many good documentaries (this isn't even one) about this case and you pick out this joke !
What's next?Tracey's doc?:D That's a better version of X-files than this one.

madeleine
09-19-2009, 05:27 AM
Well.........L.Smit and this team........a match made in Disneyland.

http://home.att.net/~carla.baron/bio.html

Currently, Carla is taping a Halloween special for the E! Channel ~
"Psychic Hollywood: Search for the Truth," LOL


http://www.iigwest.com/investigations/carla_baron/carla_report.html

While we were unable to get information on some of her claims, every case we investigated was either solved without Baron’s involvement or remains unsolved. Either way, her claims of being a “psychic detective” are completely unsubstantiated.


Baron herself has characterized the role of a psychic in criminal investigations:

“Psychics don’t solve cases. They assist in providing the unknown, the missing piece of the puzzle.”1

“[P]sychic flashbacks don't solve the cases, but they certainly add new layers of insight and information.”2

“[P]sychics are not meant to solve cases. They're meant to ‘help connect the dots.’"3

“I don’t think it’s about the accuracy. I think it’s about the assistance that I give.”4

But how can you assist people with inaccurate information? Doesn't providing the missing piece of the puzzle, or insight and information, or connecting the dots usually lead to a solution? Implicit in the claim of being a “psychic detective” is the claim that you provide accurate information that leads to the successful resolution of a mystery. Imagine if a police detective said, “police detectives don’t actually solve the case, they just come up with ideas and hope for the best.” Such a statement would not generate much confidence in police procedure, and rightly so.

Following are details on fourteen cases with which Baron has claimed some kind of involvement. They are in chronological order, by date of the victim’s murder or initial disappearance. Explicit and upsetting details of violent crimes have been kept to a minimum, and the names of individuals who have been accused of these crimes but have not been identified by police as a suspect have been omitted.



The cases detailed are listed below. You can click on individual cases to jump directly to them, or scroll through the entire report.

madeleine
09-19-2009, 05:29 AM
http://www.iigwest.com/investigations/carla_baron/carla_report.html

JONBENET RAMSEY

6 years old at time of murder.

LOCATION: Boulder, CO

CRIME: Found murdered on December 25, 1996

SUSPECTS: None.

FAMILY SPOKESPERSON/CONTACT: None.

INVESTIGATING OFFICER/AGENCY: Detective Tom Bennett, Boulder Colorado Police, is one of many investigating officials.

BARON’S CLAIM: Baron told a student newspaper that she worked on a case “like the JonBenet Ramsey. . . case,”6 but could not state that she worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case specifically because it still “remains open.”7

IIG'S FINDINGS: The interviewer, Adam Smeltz, apparently insisted that she clarify the comment about JonBenet Ramsey, and she backed off. Interpreting this statement as a claim that she worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case, we contacted Detective Tom Bennett, who stated, “No psychic has provided any useful information,” adding that he had never even heard of Carla Baron.

GingBreade
09-19-2009, 05:33 AM
Yeah, I saw this a while ago, and thought it was pretty cool until I saw that it was "Smiterized". My stupid word, yes. He just looks so happy that they are substantiating his beliefs.

madeleine
09-19-2009, 01:19 PM
Was hilarious how they "felt,sniffed,whatever" that he came through the basement window.Spot on eh?Oh and I bet that wasn't Lou's idea.





:floorlaugh:

voynich
09-19-2009, 05:46 PM
Funny,there are so many good documentaries (this isn't even one) about this case and you pick out this joke !
What's next?Tracey's doc?:D That's a better version of X-files than this one.


JB says Hello from beyond the grave

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 06:12 PM
Just a question can Psychics be unbaised when the case is high profile as this one?

voynich
09-19-2009, 06:16 PM
Just a question can Psychics be unbaised when the case is high profile as this one?

Why would JB's ghost lie to them about what happened to her in her final minutes? :waitasec:

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 06:21 PM
What year was this Voynich,and would you believe if it pointed to a Ramsey....

voynich
09-19-2009, 06:28 PM
What year was this Voynich,and would you believe if it pointed to a Ramsey....

It states 6 months earlier than July 9, 2008, since they have a video clip announcing touch DNA evidence.
What this means is that this documentary was produced before DNA results exonerating the R's.
So JB's ghost was telling the JIDI what happened to her before the DNA results were released.

Hmm, that's a tough one. But here, JB's ghost has spoken to the mediums and psychics and it's JIDI.

According to JB's ghost, she woke up after everyone was asleep, and went downstairs, and was eating pineapple by herself in the kitchen when the IDI struck her.

She even says Hello to that electronic voice detector.

Another psychic was also IDI.

coloradoteacher
09-19-2009, 07:02 PM
I like how they keep saying things that they knew were not widely published when we all know they were- i.e. the stun, gun, the hiking boots, the eating pineapple, I could go on and on.
This did not say anything new to me.

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 07:24 PM
It states 6 months earlier than July 9, 2008, since they have a video clip announcing touch DNA evidence.
What this means is that this documentary was produced before DNA results exonerating the R's.
So JB's ghost was telling the JIDI what happened to her before the DNA results were released.

Hmm, that's a tough one. But here, JB's ghost has spoken to the mediums and psychics and it's JIDI.

According to JB's ghost, she woke up after everyone was asleep, and went downstairs, and was eating pineapple by herself in the kitchen when the IDI struck her.

She even says Hello to that electronic voice detector.




Another psychic was also IDI.


Thank you for advoiding my question would believe a psychic if they said A Ramsey did it...

But ask the psyhic how did PR and BR fingerprints got on the bowl?
Also ask why JR said JonBenet would had never walked downstairs by herself...Maybe they can answer more questions that we don't know

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 07:49 PM
Funny,there are so many good documentaries (this isn't even one) about this case and you pick out this joke !

My sentiments exactly!

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 07:55 PM
JB says Hello from beyond the grave

Why would JB's ghost lie to them about what happened to her in her final minutes?

If that's a joke, I assure you, it is NOT funny.

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 07:59 PM
Thank you for avoiding my question would believe a psychic if they said A Ramsey did it...

What did you EXPECT?

Here are a few more questions: how could she have eaten it by herself when she couldn't even reach the countertop?

If PR was asleep, why did her side of the bed show evidence of not having been slept in (per Chuck Green)?

Tadpole12
09-19-2009, 08:08 PM
Hi voynich.

I'm always a little disapponited when you delete, I always wonder, what brillance could I have missed?

"Why would JB's ghost lie to them about what happened to her in her final minutes?" - v

Could be another spirit, assuming her form?
trickery.

voynich
09-19-2009, 08:13 PM
Hi voynich.

I'm always a little disapponited when you delete, I always wonder, what brillance could I have missed?

"Why would JB's ghost lie to them about what happened to her in her final minutes?" - v

Could be another spirit, assuming her form?
trickery.


Thank you for advoiding my question would believe a psychic if they said A Ramsey did it...



What did you EXPECT?


I was going to ask about the DNA and other experts but decided it belonged in the other thread.

The RDI seem a little defensive

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 08:23 PM
Not really cause done research all this and just wonder if you did...And my question was if a psychic said a Ramsey did kill JonBenet would you believe it simple question...

voynich
09-19-2009, 08:28 PM
Not really cause done research all this and just wonder if you did...And my question was if a psychic said a Ramsey did kill JonBenet would you believe it simple question...

Depends on how many exacting details they could give and how well it matches up w/known evidence and whether they could provide new evidence and new leads. Also, having the voice of JB on electronic voice detector is persuasive evidence.

If this psychic said that BR did it all alone would you believe it?

If the perp really does live in Va and did work in security and has some ties at Access??

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 08:29 PM
Was hilarious how they "felt,sniffed,whatever" that he came through the basement window.Spot on eh?Oh and I bet that wasn't Lou's idea.





:floorlaugh:

Yeah, I have no doubt that these "Ghostbusters"-wannabes heard a voice. I just don't think it was JB's!

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 08:35 PM
The RDI seem a little defensive

1) I'm not sure Tadpole is RDI. Seems more like a fence-sitter to me.

2) We're not defensive. We're just a little testy because it seems like we're not getting straight answers.

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 08:48 PM
Depends on how many exacting details they could give and how well it matches up w/known evidence and whether they could provide new evidence and new leads. Also, having the voice of JB on electronic voice detector is persuasive evidence.

If this psychic said that BR did it all alone would you believe it?

If the perp really does live in Va and did work in security and has some ties at Access??

Now did they do a history on the house...And with the voice how many u tube is out there with JonBenet's voice and did you cross refence that with what they heard...And if you can get me a true psychic that can tell stuff we don't know then I say I will get back to you....

voynich
09-19-2009, 08:50 PM
Now did they do a history on the house...And with the voice how many u tube is out there with JonBenet's voice and did you cross refence that with what they heard...And if you can get me a true psychic that can tell stuff we don't know then I say I will get back to you....


Yeah, I have no doubt that these "Ghostbusters"-wannabes heard a voice. I just don't think it was JB's!


1) I'm not sure Tadpole is RDI. Seems more like a fence-sitter to me.

2) We're not defensive. We're just a little testy because it seems like we're not getting straight answers.




You're free to find psychics/mediums/seances who spoke to JB's ghost who claim RDI and post them here. These 3 were handpicked by crimetv as the best in the business.


YouTube - Madeleine McCann Haunting Evidence part 1/5
YouTube - Madeleine McCann Haunting Evidence part 2/5
YouTube - Madeleine McCann Haunting Evidence Part 4
YouTube - Madeleine McCann Haunting Evidence Part 3/5
YouTube - Madeleine McCann Haunting Evidence part 5/5

YouTube - Psychic Detectives-The Girl Who Wasn't There 1/3





Fight JIDI fire (psychics, mediums, paranormal) with RDIST fire.

voynich
09-19-2009, 08:52 PM
If that's a joke, I assure you, it is NOT funny.

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy

Tadpole12
09-19-2009, 08:59 PM
1) I'm not sure Tadpole is RDI. Seems more like a fence-sitter to me.

Hi SD.

fence sitter/hopper, fell off a couple times.

I'm a skeptic, but I did find the one psychic's suggestion that the IDI cased every sq ft of the home and counted the paces from a to b. iirc, very interesting. The basement light was left on ... so that may have been the safety.

The psychic show had a bit of everything, and every profile.

Ravyn
09-19-2009, 09:09 PM
Who asked for this psychic, did she walk around, did she say anything new, did JonBenet ask why did this happen, have you ever seen a ghost much less talked to one..
Tricks of the voice simple,have you ever seen that picture that says JonBenet gost...

SuperDave
09-19-2009, 09:30 PM
You're free to find psychics/mediums/seances who spoke to JB's ghost who claim RDI and post them here.

Well, I know there were a few back in the day. Don't know about speaking to her ghost, though. (That whole "electronic voice detector" sounds a little too much like Egon's PKE meter for my taste.)


These 3 were handpicked by crimetv as the best in the business.

Oh, I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that they were handpicked by TruTv! That's pretty much the problem.


Fight JIDI fire (psychics, mediums, paranormal) with RDIST fire.

Fight fire with fire? What did you do, hack my PMs?


There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy

I know, voynich. Were I to be perfectly honest about this, I'd have to say that I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, there are things I just can't find a solid scientific explanation for. I'm not willing to entirely discount the notion that there are otherworldly forces at work in our world, especially being a religious man. At the same time, I have a hard time believing in something that I have never seen or felt.

I guess it comes back to my dad's favorite saying: always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

voynich
09-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Oh, I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that they were handpicked by TruTv! That's pretty much the problem.




I know, voynich. Were I to be perfectly honest about this, I'd have to say that I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, there are things I just can't find a solid scientific explanation for. I'm not willing to entirely discount the notion that there are otherworldly forces at work in our world, especially being a religious man. At the same time, I have a hard time believing in something that I have never seen or felt.

I guess it comes back to my dad's favorite saying: always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

The same trio also did Madeleine McCann, George Allen Smith, Natalee Holloway and the "Zodiac Killer."

http://www.trutv.com/shows/haunting_evidence/index.html

claudicici
09-19-2009, 11:21 PM
i believe these shows are made for entertainment purposes only and not one minute do i believe that these are true psychics and that they did not have knowledge of the details in this case just as we have....it's a theory based on what is known....i don't think it's an entirely impossible theory,but if there really was a security guard at the company that could have commited this crime I highly doubt he wouldn't have been looked into by now...

voynich
09-20-2009, 12:03 AM
i believe these shows are made for entertainment purposes only and not one minute do i believe that these are true psychics and that they did not have knowledge of the details in this case just as we have....it's a theory based on what is known....i don't think it's an entirely impossible theory,but if there really was a security guard at the company that could have commited this crime I highly doubt he wouldn't have been looked into by now...

do you believe there are true psychics?

angelwngs
09-20-2009, 12:40 AM
The same trio also did Madeleine McCann, George Allen Smith, Natalee Holloway and the "Zodiac Killer."

http://www.trutv.com/shows/haunting_evidence/index.html

...and Tara Grinstead, which they botched terribly! (...have a family connection to this one so I can assure you the results were laughable!)

voynich
09-20-2009, 12:46 AM
...and Tara Grinstead, which they botched terribly! (...have a family connection to this one so I can assure you the results were laughable!)

how did they botch it?

btw do they see themselves as real or professional psychics or just entertainers?

claudicici
09-20-2009, 12:54 AM
...yes,i do believe there are true psychics...

Ravyn
09-20-2009, 02:41 AM
BARON’S CLAIM: Baron told a student newspaper that she worked on a case “like the JonBenet Ramsey. . . case, but could not state that she worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case specifically because it still “remains open...



IIG'S FINDINGS: The interviewer, Adam Smeltz, apparently insisted that she clarify the comment about JonBenet Ramsey, and she backed off. Interpreting this statement as a claim that she worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case, we contacted Detective Tom Bennett, who stated, “No psychic has provided any useful information,” adding that he had never even heard of Carla Baron.

http://www.iigwest.com/investigations/carla_baron/carla_report.html#Ramsey%20Research


She really might be or might not be right here...But don't act like she don't make mistakes...And what she says is set in stone...

voynich
09-20-2009, 03:27 AM
...yes,i do believe there are true psychics...

who are they and any of them commented on JB?

Ravyn
09-20-2009, 03:35 AM
And besides voynich with this being an high profile case how many would believe in a pyschic...To me if they can't bring nothing new to the case that haven't been on the internet,media or any place else it don't matter if they are RDI or IDI...

madeleine
09-20-2009, 07:15 AM
snip
Also, having the voice of JB on electronic voice detector is persuasive evidence.



Heck yeah,wonder why Lacy didn't use THAT key piece of evidence in her exoneration stunt !:alien:

SuperDave
09-20-2009, 01:05 PM
The same trio also did Madeleine McCann, George Allen Smith, Natalee Holloway and the "Zodiac Killer."

http://www.trutv.com/shows/haunting_evidence/index.html

You'll have to excuse me, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.

I meant what what I said about them being handpicked by TruTv and that being the problem.

voynich
09-20-2009, 01:36 PM
You'll have to excuse me, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.

I meant what what I said about them being handpicked by TruTv and that being the problem.

They have their own message board,

before you click you get this warning from me:

YouTube - Theme Song to The Twilight Zone


HAUNTING EVIDENCE - truTV message boards

On the ZK episode they have ZK's ghost giving military code,

Zodiac Killer - truTV message boards

Who's voice was on the recording talking about Military codes and how sometimes the tactic is to confuse the enemy by using jibberish codes?

Who's the guy they said it was?
That WAS a creepy recording!!!! I get chills thinking about it even now.

It's too bad it's not Halloween yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haunting_Evidence


Haunting Evidence is an American documentary television series following the travels of a psychic profiler, a medium, and a paranormal investigator. The trio travels the United States investigating "cold case" homicide and missing persons cases. The series began production in October 2005 and premiered on Court TV in mid-June 2006, with a run of nine episodes. Season 2 began on June 20, 2007. Episode 107 "Mystery in the Desert" from season one has been closed, with the perpetrator of the crime Gabriel Avila linked to Sepich via DNA evidence.[1].

The cast is currently psychic profiler Carla Baron, medium John J. Oliver, and paranormal investigator Patrick Burns. The premise of the series is to shed new light on unsolved crimes utilizing this "team of unconventional investigators".

Season 1

1. Mystery on the Appalachian Trail (Julianne Williams & Laura Winans) (December 21, 2005)
2. Mystery in the Ashes (Tara Baker) (December 21, 2005)
3. Forgotten Fiancée (Amanda Tusing) (June 14, 2006)
4. The Missing D.A. (Ray Gricar) (June 21, 2006)
5. Hidden Truth (Timothy Stone) (July 5, 2006)
6. Missing Teacher (Tara Grinstead) (July 19, 2006)
7. Mystery in the Desert (Katie Sepich) (July 26, 2006)
8. Abduction at Comins Pond (Molly Bish) (August 2, 2006)
9. Lady of the Dunes (August 9, 2006)

Season 2

1. Missing in Paradise (Natalee Holloway) (June 20, 2007)
2. Women of Calder Field (June 27, 2007)
3. Long Journey Home (July 4, 2007)
4. Buried Secrets (James Lacouture) (July 11, 2007)
5. Dupont Circle Mystery (Joyce Chiang & Chandra Levy) (July 18, 2007)
6. The Ruins at Land's End (July 25, 2007)
7. Five Hundred Miles Away (Judith Smith) (August 1, 2007)
8. Deep in the Desert (August 8, 2007)
9. Wiregrass Murders (August 15, 2007)
10. North Carolina Burning (August 22, 2007)
11. Haunted in Villisca (August 29, 2007)

Season 3

1. The JonBenet Mystery (October 4, 2008)

Clearly they were not handpicked solely to spin an IDI tale for only this episode.

SuperDave
09-20-2009, 01:53 PM
I'm still waiting for angelwngs to elaborate.

angelwngs
09-20-2009, 04:12 PM
how did they botch it?

btw do they see themselves as real or professional psychics or just entertainers?

http://www.skepdic.com/news/newsletter70.html

Just thought you might like to scan over this article on the psychic investigators in Haunting Evidence/Tara Grinstead, etc.

I have studied/followed Tara's case from the beginning. The Haunting Evidence "Team" portray themselves as entering each case 'cold' and
ascertain their information relating to each case as coming from the use of their 'gifts' and 'abilities'.

I'm not going to get involved in the specifics of Tara's case on JonBenet's forum, but you can go to Tara's forum here at WS and read up on Tara's case. You can watch the Haunting Evidence episode devoted to her case for yourself in television re-run, online clips, or read transcripts. You can google 'Haunting Evidence Tara Grinstead' and see the messageboard comments from other people who closely follow Tara's case. There, you can read their responses to this particular episode of Haunting Evidence. You can also google each psychic's individual name and locate their personal website to additionally help you formulate your opinion as to their credibility as "a psychic". (I did this myself quite a long time ago...)

If you choose to do all this, I have no doubt that you will agree with me that these people, in this show, come off as being a COMPLETE farce. They are not merely 'entertaining', rather, they are totally laughable.

In my opinion these people and this show actually give gifted "psychics" a 'bad name'.

Sophie
09-20-2009, 05:08 PM
There are certainly some incredibly prescient people. Whether their talent derives from a super-developed subconscious or some more ethereal quality is debatable but they do exist. There are thousands of charlatans, though, and I suspect that they comprise the main body of those claiming to be able to solve crimes.

Having said that, I do think it would be useful for police to engage with psychics on homicide cases, if only to keep the discussion going and to get a fresh eye - you never quite know where the random comment will come from that will fire the synapses and provide the eureka! moment.

It's a slightly different thing but I always think of that astrologer who predicted Ted Bundy's last Washington murders. The information wasn't used and it wouldn't have helped find Bundy but it does give you pause to think that she was ridiculed in some circles....

voynich
09-20-2009, 05:25 PM
There are certainly some incredibly prescient people.

re: Ask Dave,

I think that the sequence of events depicted in the video makes sense to me.

Ravyn
09-20-2009, 08:56 PM
I done told you my belief in this,now would you be fighting this point if the pyschics was RDI...Now on these shows the only thing comes to mind is hollywood movies and special effects and really to believe I can the old saying is coming I have to see and hear it for myself...And what I mean by that is being there personally not u tube

DeeDee249
09-20-2009, 10:26 PM
This "psychic" wasn't talking to JB's "ghost". JB is not a ghost. She isn't trapped. She has moved on. That is what I was trying to explain before on another thread. There is a difference between ghosts and spirit visitors.
ANY deceased person can visit here anytime they wish. Ghosts never left in the first place.
Psychics are not always Mediums. A psychic gets impressions from people, places and objects, often getting a mental image of events attached to them.
But a Medium can talk to the dead. Big difference. Even with that, some Mediums are clairvoyant (see the dead), some are clairaudient (hear the dead) and some are clairsentient (sense the dead or have sensibilities of other dimensions). Some are all three.
There are a lot of fakes around, too.

voynich
09-20-2009, 10:53 PM
This "psychic" wasn't talking to JB's "ghost". JB is not a ghost. She isn't trapped. She has moved on. That is what I was trying to explain before on another thread. There is a difference between ghosts and spirit visitors.
ANY deceased person can visit here anytime they wish. Ghosts never left in the first place.
Psychics are not always Mediums. A psychic gets impressions from people, places and objects, often getting a mental image of events attached to them.
But a Medium can talk to the dead. Big difference. Even with that, some Mediums are clairvoyant (see the dead), some are clairaudient (hear the dead) and some are clairsentient (sense the dead or have sensibilities of other dimensions). Some are all three.
There are a lot of fakes around, too.

So when I dream of my cat is she a ghost or spirit visitor?

So what do you think of medium John J. Oliver and paranormal investigator Patrick Burns electronic voice recording of JB saying Hello?

DeeDee249
09-20-2009, 11:06 PM
So when I dream of my cat is she a ghost or spirit visitor?

So what do you think of medium John J. Oliver and paranormal investigator Patrick Burns electronic voice recording of JB saying Hello?

Your cat is a spirit visitor. Animals never become ghosts when they die. PM me if you need to know why.
While I do believe in EVP (electronic voice phenomena) I couldn't say without being there whether the voice was JB's. Keep in mind we are looking at a TV representation of the event. We don't know if the playback is actually what was recorded, or has been produced for the show.
All spirits, being pure energy themselves, can and do use any type of electrical or magnetic force simply because they can more easily communicate that way. JB has no real voice anymore because she no longer has the physical apparatus for speech. Could she communicate on a tape recorder like that? Yes. Would she? Possibly. Is that really her "voice"? I'd have to sure the tape was recorded and played back immediately after and not altered in anyway.

voynich
09-20-2009, 11:09 PM
Your cat is a spirit visitor. Animals never become ghosts when they die. PM me if you need to know why.
While I do believe in EVP (electronic voice phenomena) I couldn't say without being there whether the voice was JB's. Keep in mind we are looking at a TV representation of the event. We don't know if the playback is actually what was recorded, or has been produced for the show.
All spirits, being pure energy themselves, can and do use any type of electrical or magnetic force simply because they can more easily communicate that way. JB has no real voice anymore because she no longer has the physical apparatus for speech. Could she communicate on a tape recorder like that? Yes. Would she? Possibly. Is that really her "voice"? I'd have to sure the tape was recorded and played back immediately after and not altered in anyway.

thanks about my cat -- i infer ghosts require something unjust happen to them.

If the show did not alter EVP in any way, would JB's spirit visitor have any reason to say hello to these trio of psychics/mediums and their IDI theory?

DeeDee249
09-20-2009, 11:16 PM
thanks about my cat -- i infer ghosts require something unjust happen to them.

If the show did not alter EVP in any way, would JB's spirit visitor have any reason to say hello to these trio of psychics/mediums and their IDI theory?

Ghosts don't necessarily require anything unjust to have happened. There are many reason why someone won't complete their transition. Whatever their reason, that was not JB's problem. She did not and does not need to hang around to see justice done. She knows it will be done. And we need to accept that it might not be here.
Would she "say hello?" Maybe. She'd know they were trying to contact her and the magnetic tape makes it possible. Did she? I don't really think so.
In other words, it is entirely possible for the dead to communicate that way. But I don't think she did.

voynich
09-20-2009, 11:18 PM
Ghosts don't necessarily require anything unjust to have happened. There are many reason why someone won't complete their transition. Whatever their reason, that was not JB's problem. She did not and does not need to hang around to see justice done. She knows it will be done. And we need to accept that it might not be here.
Would she "say hello?" Maybe. She'd know they were trying to contact her and the magnetic tape makes it possible. Did she? I don't really think so.
In other words, it is entirely possible for the dead to communicate that way. But I don't think she did.

So what do you think of medium John J. Oliver -- evidentally JB's spirit told him IDI

madeleine
09-21-2009, 11:48 AM
So what do you think of medium John J. Oliver -- evidentally JB's spirit told him IDI

ROFL
It was Lou Smit's "spirit" who told him that!

voynich
09-21-2009, 02:01 PM
ROFL
It was Lou Smit's "spirit" who told him that!

Mock on all you want, but where's the RDI re-enactment? :banghead:

madeleine
09-21-2009, 02:05 PM
I am mocking cheap entertainment yeah........wonder why one of the 3 is making hollywood clips now?duh

weasel
09-21-2009, 02:16 PM
Thank you for advoiding my question would believe a psychic if they said A Ramsey did it...

But ask the psyhic how did PR and BR fingerprints got on the bowl?
Also ask why JR said JonBenet would had never walked downstairs by herself...Maybe they can answer more questions that we don't know

bold by me

Just a guess here, but since they both did live in the house, I would imagine their fingerprints would be on lots of stuff. I'd be more surprised if their fingerprints weren't on the bowl.

weasel
09-21-2009, 02:36 PM
ROFL
It was Lou Smit's "spirit" who told him that!


Sorry, not trying to be nasty, but I cannot understand why people continutally berate Lou Smit just because they don't agree with him. He has been a homicide investigator (and from what I gather a rather good one) for, I don't know, how many years? People may not always agree with him, but since he is an expert in his field I think at the very least his opinions and ideas could be considered. I have read posts from people calling him everything from "nut job" to wishing him dead just because they don't agree with him. Not accusing anyone of course, but when I read posts where people are berating him, I just want to ask them "how many years have you been actively investigating homicides"?

SuperDave
09-21-2009, 04:45 PM
There are certainly some incredibly prescient people.


re: Ask Dave

Gee, thanks!

SuperDave
09-21-2009, 04:48 PM
ROFL
It was Lou Smit's "spirit" who told him that!

No kidding! Doesn't take a psychic to figure THAT out.

"Call Ghostbusters. We are ready to believe you!" LOL


Mock on all you want,

madeleine, you heard the man!


but where's the RDI re-enactment? :banghead:

I think Sophie answered that one well. On a personal note, some of us have talked about making our own documentary with a re-enactment in it. Trouble is, we have no idea where to start.

SuperDave
09-21-2009, 05:01 PM
Sorry, not trying to be nasty, but I cannot understand why people continutally berate Lou Smit just because they don't agree with him.

Actually, we DON'T berate him because we don't agree with him. We berate him for the way he destroyed his own credibility by making he EGO more important than justice.


He has been a homicide investigator (and from what I gather a rather good one) for, I don't know, how many years?

From what I gather, 1) he was as good as the teams he was on; 2) most of the perps he investigated were dumb trailer trash, a far cry from what he up against here.


People may not always agree with him, but since he is an expert in his field I think at the very least his opinions and ideas could be considered.

I HAVE considered them. A multitude of things have forced me to reject them!

Ravyn
09-21-2009, 06:05 PM
bold by me

Just a guess here, but since they both did live in the house, I would imagine their fingerprints would be on lots of stuff. I'd be more surprised if their fingerprints weren't on the bowl.

The point is PR said she didn't know where the bowl came from that it wasn't theirs...And BR recogonized the bowl...

SuperDave
09-23-2009, 05:02 PM
No kidding! Doesn't take a psychic to figure THAT out.

"Call Ghostbusters. We are ready to believe you!" LOL

I think Sophie answered that one well. On a personal note, some of us have talked about making our own documentary with a re-enactment in it. Trouble is, we have no idea where to start.

Okay, in all seriousness:

1) If we seem hard on these paranormalists (or whatever the term is), it helps to remember that ever since they settled a lawsuit with the Rs a few years ago, TruTv has been little more than an unpaid propaganda outfit for the Rs. Even leaving aside what angelwngs has said, when you have a show like this where Lou Smit and Michael Tracey have such HEAVY creative control over it, that creates a SERIOUS credibility issue. I can only assume that's what madeleine meant by her comment. It's certainly not unthinkable that Tracey and Smit did a selljob on a lot of different psychics until they found some who agreed with them, is it? I mean, you don't REALLY think that they're going to air a show that they produced where the psychics would disagree with them, do you?

2) As for an RDI re-enactment, what I said was true. Nothing would please me more than to produce a documentary of our own. But even if it COULD happen, I'm just plain NOT comfortable with the idea, as I imagine most other people wouldn't be. For my money, Sophie is right: the idea that a parent could do this is a HELL of a lot scarier than ANY intruder scenario, and for a couple of reasons. It just rocks the comfort zone of too many people. And while I honestly think that teaching people the hard lessons for a hard world is a good thing (I have to believe that, otherwise I'd have never written the book), I fear that sensationalism would overtake anything serious that we were trying to discuss. Personally, I think that's the problem with this show: it's little more than cheap entertainment; sensationalism for its own sake.

Ames
09-25-2009, 10:43 PM
Yeah, I saw this a while ago, and thought it was pretty cool until I saw that it was "Smiterized". My stupid word, yes. He just looks so happy that they are substantiating his beliefs.

I saw it awhile ago too....did you notice that they left out the head injury altogether? Seems with all of their psychic ability, they would have been able to "see" that. It wasn't even mentioned....hmmmm

Ames
09-25-2009, 10:53 PM
bold by me

Just a guess here, but since they both did live in the house, I would imagine their fingerprints would be on lots of stuff. I'd be more surprised if their fingerprints weren't on the bowl.

Yeah, and you would think that with all of that handling of the RN....I mean, Patsy says she picked it up, read some of it, handed it to John, who spread it across the floor to read it for some reason....and then Patsy handed it to investigators when they arrived. But...for some reason...no prints of the Ramsey's were found. HMMMM...how could this be?? (My scenario....RN was written while wearing latex gloves, was never ON the steps to begin with, NOR handed to John, only actually handled by a Ramsey (without a glove) for a minute as Patsy handed it over to investigators). Sorry...this has nothing to do with the pineapple bowl...but, more to do with Ramsey fingerprints.

Ravyn
09-26-2009, 09:50 AM
But I thought according to ST in his book that 5 prints was found on the RN one was from the tech that was examining the RN and one from a Dective and 3 was from PR and JR's never showed up...

claudicici
10-09-2009, 12:57 AM
i agree

DeeDee249
01-28-2010, 11:57 PM
Yeah, and you would think that with all of that handling of the RN....I mean, Patsy says she picked it up, read some of it, handed it to John, who spread it across the floor to read it for some reason....and then Patsy handed it to investigators when they arrived. But...for some reason...no prints of the Ramsey's were found. HMMMM...how could this be?? (My scenario....RN was written while wearing latex gloves, was never ON the steps to begin with, NOR handed to John, only actually handled by a Ramsey (without a glove) for a minute as Patsy handed it over to investigators). Sorry...this has nothing to do with the pineapple bowl...but, more to do with Ramsey fingerprints.

Patsy did have latex gloves- LE questioned her about them. She used them when she dyed her hair. This makes sense- when you consider that Patsy's prints were on the pineapple bowl and not the note because the pineapple snack happened before the death and staging. At some point, the Rs obviously became aware of the need to not have their prints on certain things. They may very well have worn gloves when handling the flashlight, but then remembered the BATTERIES (which were previously put in before that day) and removed them, wiped them off, and replaced them. How suspicious is that? The R knew they couldn't deny owning the flashlight if their prints were ever found on the batteries, so they wiped off the batteries. I have to say that there are many things in this case that point to the parents' guilt, but for ME the two things that scream parental involvement are the wiped down batteries, and denying the pineapple snack. That is because the pineapple and the flashlight play a part in the events of the night. The flashlight because it may have been the murder weapon and/or was used to move about the house after the death, and the pineapple because there was no need to lie about it. The only reason they had to lie was because they needed to have LE think they had no interaction with JB that night after they returned from the White's. The time of death was so close to the time they returned that there was no way an intruder would be able to do all that was done that night and not be found by the parents, who were at home.

Ravyn
02-13-2010, 08:34 AM
Now alot here goes by Steve Thomas and even says he was JonBenet's hero...But he says in his book that five fingerprints was found on the RN...One from the detective,one from the tech looking at it,three from PR...Why do we keep coming back that no fingerprints was on the RN,have I missed some where that it says different....If so can someone please post a link....I have been searching to see if I missed it somewhere...I'm just wondering if Steve Thomas was wrong....

cynic
02-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Now alot here goes by Steve Thomas and even says he was JonBenet's hero...But he says in his book that five fingerprints was found on the RN...One from the detective,one from the tech looking at it,three from PR...Why do we keep coming back that no fingerprints was on the RN,have I missed some where that it says different....If so can someone please post a link....I have been searching to see if I missed it somewhere...I'm just wondering if Steve Thomas was wrong....
Hi Ravyn

You are confusing what was found on the notepad with the RN.
PR's prints were found only on the notepad, not on the RN.

Vargas: "Were John and Patsy Ramsey's fingerprint on the ransom note?"
Thomas: "No."
Vargas: "No?"
Thomas: "No."
Vargas: (VO) "But if they found the note and picked it up, Thomas asks why their fingerprints were not on it. Did they say whether or not they had picked it up to read it?"
Thomas: "I tried to pin Patsy Ramsey down at the time of our first interview with them. Did you grab the note? Did you pick up the note? Did you clutch it in your hand and read it and run upstairs with it? Who moved it to the hardwood floor? And I couldn't get an answer to that. She didn't recall."
Vargas: "Is it possible that the parents could have handled the note and not left their fingerprints? Or that the paper for some reason didn't retain that kind of print?"
Thomas: "Certainly. But then I think the argument can be made, then when the sergeant touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. When the CBI examiner touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. Patsy had left previous fingerprints on that pad, five that we identified. So that remains one of the mysteries in this case. How come there's no identifiable fingerprints on this thing if one or both parents handled and grasped it that morning?"
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ransomnote.htm


The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner (Chet Ubowski).
...
Lab analysts did identify 7 latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five prints were Patricia Ramsey's.

JonBenet : Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation - Steve Thomas p223

DeeDee249
02-13-2010, 10:28 PM
It's interesting - the items that do NOT (or have not been said to) contain R prints or DNA are part of what makes me think they are guilty. The RN, the longjohns that Patsy ADMITTED putting on her daughter, the flashlight batteries. Their prints or DNA should be on these things. Their absence is suspicious. No way a parent finds a ransom note and doesn't pick it up. Why would they have to worry about leaving prints on it? Because they were worried the handwriting might point to Patsy, and so made sure her prints were not there. The way I see it- Patsy wore her latex gloves to write the note. It was never on the stairs. Today's forensic methods would have tested the back of the note paper to see if any forensic evidence from the stairway on the paper.

Ravyn
02-14-2010, 01:25 AM
Thank you very much,cynic....

UKGuy
09-09-2010, 08:03 PM
Patsy did have latex gloves- LE questioned her about them. She used them when she dyed her hair. This makes sense- when you consider that Patsy's prints were on the pineapple bowl and not the note because the pineapple snack happened before the death and staging. At some point, the Rs obviously became aware of the need to not have their prints on certain things. They may very well have worn gloves when handling the flashlight, but then remembered the BATTERIES (which were previously put in before that day) and removed them, wiped them off, and replaced them. How suspicious is that? The R knew they couldn't deny owning the flashlight if their prints were ever found on the batteries, so they wiped off the batteries. I have to say that there are many things in this case that point to the parents' guilt, but for ME the two things that scream parental involvement are the wiped down batteries, and denying the pineapple snack. That is because the pineapple and the flashlight play a part in the events of the night. The flashlight because it may have been the murder weapon and/or was used to move about the house after the death, and the pineapple because there was no need to lie about it. The only reason they had to lie was because they needed to have LE think they had no interaction with JB that night after they returned from the White's. The time of death was so close to the time they returned that there was no way an intruder would be able to do all that was done that night and not be found by the parents, who were at home.

DeeDee249,

Some think the latex gloves may also link with the discovery of Birefringent Material inside JonBenet?



At some point, the Rs obviously became aware of the need to not have their prints on certain things. They may very well have worn gloves when handling the flashlight, but then remembered the BATTERIES (which were previously put in before that day) and removed them, wiped them off, and replaced them. How suspicious is that?


1. The flashlight was found in the kitchen?
2. The flashlight was not linked to the wine-cellar.

Are you suggesting that the flashlight is part of an extended crime-scene staging? If so why not just leave it down in the wine-cellar? This is the same thought as to why JonBenet was redressed in size-12's, since she was already, allegedly dead and the victim of a sexual assault?

That is in one case evidence is added, in another, evidence is removed.

If the Ramsey's prints had been found on both the flashlight casing and the batteries what would that tell anyone?

So could the flashlight have been left deliberately at some prior crime-scene staging then removed when it was later revised?

It would make more sense to forensically clean the flashlight before adding it to some fake crime-scene suggesting the intruder wore gloves to handle the flashlight which was used to whack JonBenet on the head?

Placing the flashlight into the kitchen away from the crime-scene suggests some form of restaging?


.

DeeDee249
09-09-2010, 08:22 PM
I think the flashlight was used in the basement, then used to light the way back up to the kitchen where it was cleaned inside and out. At that point, with all that was going on in the house and in their minds, the flashlight was simply left on the counter. Either forgotten or simply left out, as would be the case in anyone else's home after using a flashlight, especially when it was kept in a drawer near the kitchen anyway. Neighbors reported seeing "moving lights" in the kitchen around midnight. That fits into the above theory. It wasn't left in the basement because it was used to get to the kitchen in the dark. I don't think the placement of the flashlight is staging. I think it was simply left there. It was wiped when they were finished with it, which makes sense to me.

UKGuy
09-10-2010, 07:46 PM
I think the flashlight was used in the basement, then used to light the way back up to the kitchen where it was cleaned inside and out. At that point, with all that was going on in the house and in their minds, the flashlight was simply left on the counter. Either forgotten or simply left out, as would be the case in anyone else's home after using a flashlight, especially when it was kept in a drawer near the kitchen anyway. Neighbors reported seeing "moving lights" in the kitchen around midnight. That fits into the above theory. It wasn't left in the basement because it was used to get to the kitchen in the dark. I don't think the placement of the flashlight is staging. I think it was simply left there. It was wiped when they were finished with it, which makes sense to me.

DeeDee249,

You may be correct. Assuming it was Ramsey property why bother wiping it? There were many other items touched during the wine-cellar staging, but I've seen no report itemising wiped items.

Everything you say is consistent with your theory except the requirement to wipe it clean, why bother?

Unless it has forensic traces from JonBenet deposited. Or someone other than a Ramsey used the flashlight?

.

joeskidbeck
09-10-2010, 08:31 PM
Sorry for butting in here, but I feel the only reason they would have needed to entirely wipe down the flashlight was because it was the source of the head bash. I know there are numerous items that could have made that wound but the fact that it was wiped down goes a long way in convincing me. They were terrified of being implicated by that flashlight.

UKGuy
09-10-2010, 08:35 PM
Sorry for butting in here, but I feel the only reason they would have needed to entirely wipe down the flashlight was because it was the source of the head bash. I know there are numerous items that could have made that wound but the fact that it was wiped down goes a long way in convincing me. They were terrified of being implicated by that flashlight.

joeskidbeck,

I agree, its probably not the fingerprints but forensic deposits from JonBenet that was being wiped from the flashlight.



.

DeeDee249
09-10-2010, 11:17 PM
joeskidbeck,

I agree, its probably not the fingerprints but forensic deposits from JonBenet that was being wiped from the flashlight.



.

The batteries were wiped too. And that was probably for the prints. However, no intruder would worry about prints on the batteries because they didn't put the batteries in there. But one of the Rs put the batteries in there, and the only way they could get away with saying the flashlight didn't belong to them was to wipe their prints from the batteries as well. Their prints on an intruder's flashlight batteries would be a little hard to explain.
No intruder would bring a flashlight that big anyway and coincidentally one that was "just like" the one in the house where they broke into and killed a child.

madeleine
09-11-2010, 02:33 AM
However, no intruder would worry about prints on the batteries because they didn't put the batteries in there.

If it was his flashlight he would (fear of losing it at the crime scene).

Zak
09-11-2010, 12:01 PM
If it was his flashlight he would (fear of losing it at the crime scene).

What are the odd's that an intruder brought a flashlight exactly like the one that the R's had? Plus, if I remember correctly the R's flashlight wasn't located, so where was it if the one left sitting on the counter was the intruders? When leaving the intruder remembered to take with him the leftover tape and rope, but not the flashlight?

DeeDee249
09-11-2010, 10:45 PM
If it was his flashlight he would (fear of losing it at the crime scene).

Why? His prints are not found anywhere else. And if they are not in a database, it doesn't matter anyway. You'd need HIM to make a match. The flashlight was a bit to big to "lose". It was simply left on the counter. Because it belonged to the house anyway.

LinasK
09-11-2010, 11:23 PM
Sorry, not trying to be nasty, but I cannot understand why people continutally berate Lou Smit just because they don't agree with him. He has been a homicide investigator (and from what I gather a rather good one) for, I don't know, how many years? People may not always agree with him, but since he is an expert in his field I think at the very least his opinions and ideas could be considered. I have read posts from people calling him everything from "nut job" to wishing him dead just because they don't agree with him. Not accusing anyone of course, but when I read posts where people are berating him, I just want to ask them "how many years have you been actively investigating homicides"?
I wouldn't berate him just because I disagreed with him, it's because he prematurely concluded the Ramsey's were innocent because he sat down and prayed with them!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead: That's why!

MurriFlower
09-12-2010, 04:48 AM
I wouldn't berate him just because I disagreed with him, it's because he prematurely concluded the Ramsey's were innocent because he sat down and prayed with them!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead: That's why!

That's the way I feel when I read that because he didn't believe they were guilty, that makes him a bad investigator. You completely dismiss the possibility (or probability for me) that they were innocent. However, just keep banging, something might click.

DeeDee249
09-12-2010, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=MurriFlower;5598944]That's the way I feel when I read that because he didn't believe they were guilty, that makes him a bad investigator. You completely dismiss the possibility (or probability for me) that they were innocent. However, just keep banging, something might click.[/QUOTE

He wasn't a bad investigator because he believed they were innocent. He was bad investigator because he based his belief of their innocence or guilt on the fact that they prayed with him.

ziggy
09-12-2010, 04:58 PM
And that premise has been disputed. I don't think he based his beliefs the way he did because the Ramseys prayed with him. That is an oversimplification of a homicide analysis you don't agree with. There is only speculation on this type of point, no proof and certainly Lou has explained this and denies it. His long history of success and admiration in his industry would not have existed had something like this been true of his character.

ziggy
09-12-2010, 05:01 PM
With regard to the flashlight, I speculate that the perp may have been in the house before. A snoop around, a trial run - the thrill of being undetected when they were home? I don't know but if the flashlight was a mag light, uh, those are pretty common, I have one, or the perp may have taken it and brought it back with no prints???

DeeDee249
09-12-2010, 05:25 PM
With regard to the flashlight, I speculate that the perp may have been in the house before. A snoop around, a trial run - the thrill of being undetected when they were home? I don't know but if the flashlight was a mag light, uh, those are pretty common, I have one, or the perp may have taken it and brought it back with no prints???

So common, in fact, that the Rs said they actually had one "just like it". But couldn't say where "theirs" was.
NO intruder would bring an almost 2-foot heavy maglight with him to a crime. They make SO many smaller ones. No way this was a multiple-day intrusion. No reason to "bring it back with no prints". It could have just as easily been wiped right there at the time of the crime, and probably was.

LinasK
09-13-2010, 01:48 AM
Lou Smit also dismissed an unbroken spider web on the window sill, and NO footprints outside the window in the snow... If it was an IDI, this wouldn't be the case!:doh:

MurriFlower
09-15-2010, 07:55 AM
Lou Smit also dismissed an unbroken spider web on the window sill, and NO footprints outside the window in the snow... If it was an IDI, this wouldn't be the case!:doh:

Hmm, well as there was no snow in the immediate vicinity of the building (apparently) and spiders can spin webs at will, I hardly think this is the evidence that proves him wrong.

believe09
09-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Project Jason Policy Regarding Psychics

There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have an ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this. These persons re-victimize families by taking away hope where it should stand, and giving hope where there is none. No person has the right to do this to another.

Psychics and other users of purported paranormal phenomena, cause unnecessary and damaging pain and anguish to families of the missing. They can also add to financial stress if they charge fees. We're already on a roller coaster ride of events and emotions, and we should have no desire to add to it.

Understanding what goes on behind the scenes should decrease any guilt feelings for not accepting offers of "help" from these persons, whether it is fee-based or not. We want to lessen the pain already present in our every breath, and arm families with the information to defend themselves against these persons. The evidence that psychics are not helpful and in some cases even harmful, is overwhelming.

In our mission to provide support and assistance to the families of the missing, we stand firm that it is not in their best interest to pursue the use of psychics in their case. We won't ride the status quo train of popular belief that it's ok and is not harmful.

Project Jason stands firm in their policies that since psychics play no proven part in solving a missing person’s case, we will not refer them to family members, family members to them, nor “advertise” their claimed services.

Additional Information: http://projectjason.org/interviews.html#psychics (http://projectjason.org/interviews.html#psychics)

BBM: I am familiar with this via personal experience with my own family member's missing persons case, as well as my experience dealing with the psychics who are on this show. They charge EXHORBITENT fees. Enough said.

I would never discount the complexities and power of the human mind. I believe that some people are quicker to arrive at answers than others for whatever reason. But no self proclaimed psychic has ever solved a case. That is the reality of it.

Thanks for listening to my two cents...

DeeDee249
09-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Hmm, well as there was no snow in the immediate vicinity of the building (apparently) and spiders can spin webs at will, I hardly think this is the evidence that proves him wrong.

But spiders are dormant in that part of the country at that time of the year.

madeleine
09-15-2010, 12:14 PM
Project Jason Policy Regarding Psychics

There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have an ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this. These persons re-victimize families by taking away hope where it should stand, and giving hope where there is none. No person has the right to do this to another.

Psychics and other users of purported paranormal phenomena, cause unnecessary and damaging pain and anguish to families of the missing. They can also add to financial stress if they charge fees. We're already on a roller coaster ride of events and emotions, and we should have no desire to add to it.

Understanding what goes on behind the scenes should decrease any guilt feelings for not accepting offers of "help" from these persons, whether it is fee-based or not. We want to lessen the pain already present in our every breath, and arm families with the information to defend themselves against these persons. The evidence that psychics are not helpful and in some cases even harmful, is overwhelming.

In our mission to provide support and assistance to the families of the missing, we stand firm that it is not in their best interest to pursue the use of psychics in their case. We won't ride the status quo train of popular belief that it's ok and is not harmful.

Project Jason stands firm in their policies that since psychics play no proven part in solving a missing person’s case, we will not refer them to family members, family members to them, nor “advertise” their claimed services.

Additional Information: http://projectjason.org/interviews.html#psychics (http://projectjason.org/interviews.html#psychics)

BBM: I am familiar with this via personal experience with my own family member's missing persons case, as well as my experience dealing with the psychics who are on this show. They charge EXHORBITENT fees. Enough said.

I would never discount the complexities and power of the human mind. I believe that some people are quicker to arrive at answers than others for whatever reason. But no self proclaimed psychic has ever solved a case. That is the reality of it.

Thanks for listening to my two cents...

:clap:

sneezy
09-15-2010, 03:07 PM
I have to say something.

I'm not sure about these two psychics...but I have to say I know there are some people with a "gift" that can sense things beyond what "normal" people can.

How do I know? I am a psychic/medium. I am clairaudient, clairvoyant and a physical medium.

It's not something that can show up on a medical test, not that I know of, anyway.

The best way to describe it is that it's like I'm a radio, and sometimes I can pick up on a distant channel.

Easiest example, I went to visit a local restaurant. They were talking about a man seeing a woman in victorian clothing. Her name was never mentioned. at the end of the tour I asked the host who "Annabell or Anne Bell" was....Anne Bell was the former woman who owned the place in the late 1800s. He purposefully withheld the name...just to see if anyone would come up with it.

How did I do it? I "heard" the name being said over and over...

This being said, I can't say why/how I can do what I do, I just know when it happens.

Do I charge? If I'm hired to do readings at a party or event for fun, yes..

Have I worked on police cases? yes. information was given to see if it helped fill in the cracks in the working theories...did I charge for this? NO>

IF I even got something that I thought was so compelling I'd give it freely, I'd NEVER EVER EVER charge for it. Not when helping a family. I've done some home investigations and I don't charge for that either.

There are so many frauds out there I understand why you look at psychics with such a jaundiced eye, however, I just ask that you keep an open mind as not everyone is a liar and sometimes, just sometimes, you can help.

believe09
09-15-2010, 04:48 PM
I have to say something.

I'm not sure about these two psychics...but I have to say I know there are some people with a "gift" that can sense things beyond what "normal" people can.

How do I know? I am a psychic/medium. I am clairaudient, clairvoyant and a physical medium.

It's not something that can show up on a medical test, not that I know of, anyway.

The best way to describe it is that it's like I'm a radio, and sometimes I can pick up on a distant channel.

Easiest example, I went to visit a local restaurant. They were talking about a man seeing a woman in victorian clothing. Her name was never mentioned. at the end of the tour I asked the host who "Annabell or Anne Bell" was....Anne Bell was the former woman who owned the place in the late 1800s. He purposefully withheld the name...just to see if anyone would come up with it.

How did I do it? I "heard" the name being said over and over...

This being said, I can't say why/how I can do what I do, I just know when it happens.

Do I charge? If I'm hired to do readings at a party or event for fun, yes..

Have I worked on police cases? yes. information was given to see if it helped fill in the cracks in the working theories...did I charge for this? NO>

IF I even got something that I thought was so compelling I'd give it freely, I'd NEVER EVER EVER charge for it. Not when helping a family. I've done some home investigations and I don't charge for that either.

There are so many frauds out there I understand why you look at psychics with such a jaundiced eye, however, I just ask that you keep an open mind as not everyone is a liar and sometimes, just sometimes, you can help.

I tried to be thoughtful in my reply-I did not intend for those like yourself to feel unwelcome helping. All help is welcome, within reason.

Here is why I say this-for 19+ years my family was victimized by psychics when my cousin disappeared. They showed up at the house, called, wrote letters. Different ones. Some charged ridiculous fees for their assistance. Always, there was false hope and a rollercoaster of emotions ensued. Never were they right. But the guilt lived on-because the hook was what if this one is right....what if this one sees something the others have not seen. So my family stayed open. It is open no longer, sad to say.

Statistics show my experience to be the common one. I have further experience with the psychics on this show. It makes great theater-and they charge a ton of money for their services.

In your case, what if you tune into the radio and see or hear my cousin's location? I am going to raise money, get TES, rally LE, call the media...and statistically speaking, you will be wrong. Not YOU personally, but I am just giving an example.

The human mind is a wonder, and I believe that there are medical explanations for your gift that does not have to be a psychiatric one OR a mystical one. You may be far better in putting the pieces of a puzzle together than I am, regardless of what it takes to get you there. I applaud and believe that this is possible.

DeeDee249
09-15-2010, 09:01 PM
It doesn't work like that. The dead don't "solve" crimes. This is because from where they are, they simply don't care who killed them, That is for US to deal with, we who are still here are the ones with lessons to learn, not them. They truly have moved on (for the most part). Those who cannot or will not move on are what we call "ghosts". It takes them longer, but eventually they, too, move on. Time on their side of the veil is not like time here.
There is also a difference between psychics and mediums. Some people are both. A medium can see/hear/sense the dead. Some mediums can only see earthbound souls, some can see all departed souls. But a psychic doesn't communicate with the dead. Rather, they can get impressions from people, places or objects. They might be able to pick up a sense of where a great mass killing has occurred or similar situations or "see" images of people, places or things but it is not the same as talking to the dead.

A few other things- the dead don't give us information that we are not supposed to have. No winning lottery numbers or stuff like that.
And they come whenever they WANT to come, not always when you call them.

DeeDee249
09-15-2010, 09:08 PM
Beiieve09, I am sorry you had that bad experience. I'd RUN from anyone who charged money to remove negative energy (aka a curse, etc). or who tried to take advantage of a bereaved family. Don't worry, they will have that karmic debt to pay.
There are three things I was told as a child by a friend's grandma, we called her Nonni, a very gifted medium. NEVER take money for these things:
telling jokes, having sex, or talking to the dead. Because when you do, you lose your talent for it. She was also the one who told me to be careful whenever I opened the veil, because they come whenever they want to come and not always when you want them to. And she was right. So I never call them. I wait for them.

MurriFlower
09-15-2010, 10:28 PM
But spiders are dormant in that part of the country at that time of the year.

Really, which type of spider was it? I'll look it up.

MurriFlower
09-15-2010, 10:42 PM
Beiieve09, I am sorry you had that bad experience. I'd RUN from anyone who charged money to remove negative energy (aka a curse, etc). or who tried to take advantage of a bereaved family. Don't worry, they will have that karmic debt to pay.
There are three things I was told as a child by a friend's grandma, we called her Nonni, a very gifted medium. NEVER take money for these things:
telling jokes, having sex, or talking to the dead. Because when you do, you lose your talent for it. She was also the one who told me to be careful whenever I opened the veil, because they come whenever they want to come and not always when you want them to. And she was right. So I never call them. I wait for them.

I'm not into psychics or mediums, but I do believe some people are more sensitive to certain things. For example, my F-I-L could find underground water sources (aquifers) and also tell how deep underground it was, if it was clean or brackish and approximately what the flow was. So I know there are things that science can't explain. I like you're Grandmother's ideas for not taking money -- tell Seinfeld!!

When I first joined this forum and started to look into her death, an idea popped into my head unbidden (just like someone told me a clue) and I still don't know what it means. I'm going to keep searching.

Ames
09-16-2010, 01:17 AM
But spiders are dormant in that part of the country at that time of the year.

You are right about that. We lived in Montana for 8 years, and I NEVER saw a spider in the winter time...Colorado, Montana...Wyoming....I think that it's just too cold for them. To be honest, that web had probably been there for quite some time.

http://www.extension.org/faq/32566


Look up Spiders in cold climates...or Spiders in Colorado....and this is what you will find..

"When the cold weather comes , they find a safe place under leaves or bark to hibernate in during the cold winter."

madeleine
09-16-2010, 03:09 AM
I have to say something.

I'm not sure about these two psychics...but I have to say I know there are some people with a "gift" that can sense things beyond what "normal" people can.

How do I know? I am a psychic/medium. I am clairaudient, clairvoyant and a physical medium.

It's not something that can show up on a medical test, not that I know of, anyway.

The best way to describe it is that it's like I'm a radio, and sometimes I can pick up on a distant channel.

Easiest example, I went to visit a local restaurant. They were talking about a man seeing a woman in victorian clothing. Her name was never mentioned. at the end of the tour I asked the host who "Annabell or Anne Bell" was....Anne Bell was the former woman who owned the place in the late 1800s. He purposefully withheld the name...just to see if anyone would come up with it.

How did I do it? I "heard" the name being said over and over...

This being said, I can't say why/how I can do what I do, I just know when it happens.

Do I charge? If I'm hired to do readings at a party or event for fun, yes..

Have I worked on police cases? yes. information was given to see if it helped fill in the cracks in the working theories...did I charge for this? NO>

IF I even got something that I thought was so compelling I'd give it freely, I'd NEVER EVER EVER charge for it. Not when helping a family. I've done some home investigations and I don't charge for that either.

There are so many frauds out there I understand why you look at psychics with such a jaundiced eye, however, I just ask that you keep an open mind as not everyone is a liar and sometimes, just sometimes, you can help.

Maybe this has more to do with some sort of energy than visions?

MurriFlower
09-16-2010, 03:48 AM
You are right about that. We lived in Montana for 8 years, and I NEVER saw a spider in the winter time...Colorado, Montana...Wyoming....I think that it's just too cold for them. To be honest, that web had probably been there for quite some time.

http://www.extension.org/faq/32566


Look up Spiders in cold climates...or Spiders in Colorado....and this is what you will find..

"When the cold weather comes , they find a safe place under leaves or bark to hibernate in during the cold winter."

Well, this little chap wasn't out in the woods needing to hide under a leaf or bark, he was snug and warm in the R's window well grate, (with the window open for some nice warm airflow), so he could spin away to his heart's content.

Ames
09-16-2010, 10:01 PM
Well, this little chap wasn't out in the woods needing to hide under a leaf or bark, he was snug and warm in the R's window well grate, (with the window open for some nice warm airflow), so he could spin away to his heart's content.

LOL...not enough warm airflow in CO, during the winter months, pouring out of an open or broken window. Spiders just don't come out during those winter months. The go into hiding. Do you really believe that sometime during that night of the murder...after the grate was moved....that a spider spun a web? I seriously doubt it....that web had been there for awhile. Even if I did believe in IDI...which I don't...but IF I did....I would lean toward an intruder coming in through another way...the front door, for example...or another window. I lived in Montana...two states above Colorado...(lol..you would be surprised at the people that do not know geography)...anyway...I NEVER saw a spider in the winter. I do not believe for a second that after that grate was moved...that some spider decided to hop up there, and spin a web, on that very same window that the "intruder" used. A spider anywhere in CO during that time (except for INSIDE the home), is almost nil....a spider web being spun by a spider that somehow enjoys the cold Colorado winters, and can survive them....on the same exact window that the intruder used...on the same exact night of the murder....is double nil. WAY of topic...sort of....I actually have seen a spider, here in the south....spin a web in the morning, and at night, he actually went around and wrapped the web around his legs, taking it down...putting it on his back, and then carried it under the awning of our house. It was amazing to watch....I looked it up on the internet, and there are actually spiders that do this. He took down his web to use for later. How neat is that?????

MurriFlower
09-16-2010, 10:21 PM
LOL...not enough warm airflow in CO, during the winter months, pouring out of an open or broken window. Spiders just don't come out during those winter months. The go into hiding. Do you really believe that sometime during that night of the murder...after the grate was moved....that a spider spun a web? I seriously doubt it....that web had been there for awhile. Even if I did believe in IDI...which I don't...but IF I did....I would lean toward an intruder coming in through another way...the front door, for example...or another window. I lived in Montana...two states above Colorado...(lol..you would be surprised at the people that do not know geography)...anyway...I NEVER saw a spider in the winter. I do not believe for a second that after that grate was moved...that some spider decided to hop up there, and spin a web, on that very same window that the "intruder" used. A spider anywhere in CO during that time (except for INSIDE the home), is almost nil....a spider web being spun by a spider that somehow enjoys the cold Colorado winters, and can survive them....on the same exact window that the intruder used...on the same exact night of the murder....is double nil. WAY of topic...sort of....I actually have seen a spider, here in the south....spin a web in the morning, and at night, he actually went around and wrapped the web around his legs, taking it down...putting it on his back, and then carried it under the awning of our house. It was amazing to watch....I looked it up on the internet, and there are actually spiders that do this. He took down his web to use for later. How neat is that?????

No, I'm not really a believer in the IDI coming in/going out of the window. Nor do I believe that spiders who live in/around houses do not spin webs during the winter LOL. And as for packing up their web for later use, well that's got me ROFLMAO.

Ames
09-16-2010, 10:39 PM
No, I'm not really a believer in the IDI coming in/going out of the window. Nor do I believe that spiders who live in/around houses do not spin webs during the winter LOL. And as for packing up their web for later use, well that's got me ROFLMAO.

I KNOW!!! I couldn't believe it either. I even grabbed my kids and let them watch it. It actually would take one leg and gather up the web, and then wrap it around another leg...I still can't really figure out how it did it. But, anyway...it was amazing to watch, and it just loaded the web onto it's back, and crawled under the awing. Type it into you search engine...I think there is some sort of video of one doing that. It was the strangest thing that I have ever seen. lol I was like...what the ........

Spiders may live IN a home in Colorado...in the winter...but, they cannot survive outside. Trust me...that web had been there for awhile on that window. It is just WAY to cold there....they cannot survive outside. There were other entrances to that home...there is no way that an intruder slid that grate back without disturbing that web, and no way that a spider spun a web on that exact window...on that exact night. I would believe that an intruder slid down the chimney, before I would believe that he crawled through that window.

Check out this youtube video of a spider taking it's web down..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkILnPfs6Ck

MurriFlower
09-16-2010, 11:17 PM
I KNOW!!! I couldn't believe it either. I even grabbed my kids and let them watch it. It actually would take one leg and gather up the web, and then wrap it around another leg...I still can't really figure out how it did it. But, anyway...it was amazing to watch, and it just loaded the web onto it's back, and crawled under the awing. Type it into you search engine...I think there is some sort of video of one doing that. It was the strangest thing that I have ever seen. lol I was like...what the ........



Check out this youtube video of a spider taking it's web down..


Yeah, they take them down but they don't pack them up to use later. They apparently eat the web then spin a new one.

"Nearly every species of spider uses silk in one way or another. The stereotypical spider web is known as the orb web (see image). Although everyone knows how these webs look they are not the most common web that spiders can make. In general there are four types of webs—cobwebs, sheet webs, funnel webs and orb webs. In the north country only three families of spiders use the orb web type. The rest use the other variety of webs.

Construction of the orb web is fascinating stuff. First of all, the spiders need to take down and remake their webs each night, or at least every other day. All the proteins used in making the silk are recovered by eating the old web. Radioactive tagging has shown that 80-90 percent of the initial web material shows up in the new web, even though it may be only a half hour between eating the old web and spinning the new one.

It takes the average orb web weaver about one hour to eat the old web and spin the new web. Most are constructed a couple feet off the ground and are designed for one reason—to capture insects (of which they are not) for food. All orb webs are constructed basically the same way. The main threads are called spokes and anchor the web in place. The spokes of the web are not sticky. That is how the resident spider travels around the web without getting stuck themselves. The web that connects the spokes and spirals around the web are sticky and hold the insects in place until the spider can get there."


Spiders may live IN a home in Colorado...in the winter...but, they cannot survive outside. Trust me...that web had been there for awhile on that window. It is just WAY to cold there....they cannot survive outside. There were other entrances to that home...there is no way that an intruder slid that grate back without disturbing that web, and no way that a spider spun a web on that exact window...on that exact night. I would believe that an intruder slid down the chimney, before I would believe that he crawled through that window.

and regarding the spider being domant in winter:

"House Spider Myths

Myth: Spiders come into houses in the fall to get out of the cold.

Fact: This seemingly simple idea conceals many false assumptions. In reality, house spiders are usually not the same species as the yard or garden spiders outside the house.

House spiders belong to a small number of species specially adapted for indoor conditions (constant climate, poor food supply, very poor water supply). Some house spider species have been living indoors at least since the days of the Roman Empire, and are seldom to be found outside, even in their native countries (usually Europe). Many of these species now live in houses worldwide, and most have been carried by commerce to more than one continent. Few are adapted to North American outdoor environments.

House spiders colonize new houses by egg sacs carried on furniture, building materials and so forth. They usually spend their entire life cycle in, on or under their native building. If a large number appear at a specific season, it is usually late summer (August and September) -- not a notably cold time of year! -- rather than fall, and their appearance coincides with the mating season of the given species. What you are seeing is sexually mature males wandering in search of mates.

The females and young remain hidden for the most part, in crawlspaces, storage areas and other neglected rooms; wall and floor voids; behind furniture and appliances, etc. Generally fewer than 5% of the spiders you see indoors have ever been outdoors.

In contrast, outdoor spider species are not adapted to indoor conditions. Any North American spider that needed artificial shelter for the winter, would have been extinct long before Europeans arrived! Spiders are "cold-blooded" and not attracted to warmth. They don't shiver or get uncomfortable when it's cold, they just become less active and eventually, dormant. Most temperate zone spiders have enough "antifreeze" in their bodies that they won't freeze at any temperature down to -5° C.; some can get colder. The few typical outdoor spiders that do end up indoors, die or at least don't reproduce."

Ames
09-16-2010, 11:48 PM
Yeah, they take them down but they don't pack them up to use later. They apparently eat the web then spin a new one.

"Nearly every species of spider uses silk in one way or another. The stereotypical spider web is known as the orb web (see image). Although everyone knows how these webs look they are not the most common web that spiders can make. In general there are four types of webs—cobwebs, sheet webs, funnel webs and orb webs. In the north country only three families of spiders use the orb web type. The rest use the other variety of webs.

Construction of the orb web is fascinating stuff. First of all, the spiders need to take down and remake their webs each night, or at least every other day. All the proteins used in making the silk are recovered by eating the old web. Radioactive tagging has shown that 80-90 percent of the initial web material shows up in the new web, even though it may be only a half hour between eating the old web and spinning the new one.

It takes the average orb web weaver about one hour to eat the old web and spin the new web. Most are constructed a couple feet off the ground and are designed for one reason—to capture insects (of which they are not) for food. All orb webs are constructed basically the same way. The main threads are called spokes and anchor the web in place. The spokes of the web are not sticky. That is how the resident spider travels around the web without getting stuck themselves. The web that connects the spokes and spirals around the web are sticky and hold the insects in place until the spider can get there."



and regarding the spider being domant in winter:

"House Spider Myths

Myth: Spiders come into houses in the fall to get out of the cold.

Fact: This seemingly simple idea conceals many false assumptions. In reality, house spiders are usually not the same species as the yard or garden spiders outside the house.

House spiders belong to a small number of species specially adapted for indoor conditions (constant climate, poor food supply, very poor water supply). Some house spider species have been living indoors at least since the days of the Roman Empire, and are seldom to be found outside, even in their native countries (usually Europe). Many of these species now live in houses worldwide, and most have been carried by commerce to more than one continent. Few are adapted to North American outdoor environments.

House spiders colonize new houses by egg sacs carried on furniture, building materials and so forth. They usually spend their entire life cycle in, on or under their native building. If a large number appear at a specific season, it is usually late summer (August and September) -- not a notably cold time of year! -- rather than fall, and their appearance coincides with the mating season of the given species. What you are seeing is sexually mature males wandering in search of mates.

The females and young remain hidden for the most part, in crawlspaces, storage areas and other neglected rooms; wall and floor voids; behind furniture and appliances, etc. Generally fewer than 5% of the spiders you see indoors have ever been outdoors.

In contrast, outdoor spider species are not adapted to indoor conditions. Any North American spider that needed artificial shelter for the winter, would have been extinct long before Europeans arrived! Spiders are "cold-blooded" and not attracted to warmth. They don't shiver or get uncomfortable when it's cold, they just become less active and eventually, dormant. Most temperate zone spiders have enough "antifreeze" in their bodies that they won't freeze at any temperature down to -5° C.; some can get colder. The few typical outdoor spiders that do end up indoors, die or at least don't reproduce."

The spider that I saw, put it's web...all wrapped up...on it's back. I looked it up, and there is a spider that does this. I don't know WHY...just know that it did.

When we lived in Montana...spiders would line up at our door, when the weather started getting cooler...and when we opened it...BAM...they would all run in.

This is from the article about insects overwintering in Colorado..that I posted in a previous link..

SPIDERS: The overwintering habits of spiders varies greatly; however, most of the orb-weaving spiders and other species that act as "passive hunters" and use a web to ensnare prey, winter as eggs that are produced at the end of the growing season. Conversely, many of the more active "hunting spiders," such as wolf spiders, may winter as nymphs, becoming full-grown in spring. A few spiders are quite long-lived. Giant wolf spiders may survive two to three years, and tarantulas a decade or more. They spend winter in protected retreats, such as underground burrows or hollows. Widow spiders also may live a second season in a protected location, although they usually die off in fall. Spiders that move indoors and adapt to indoor conditions with available food, may survive and reproduce year-round.

We can argue about spiders until the cows come home....there is just no way that I believe that a spider, in the middle of a CO. winter, is going to spin a web on that particular window that the "intruder" supposedly used, on the same night as the murder. What's the odds of THAT happening??? That grate was NEVER moved....imo

MurriFlower
09-17-2010, 12:15 AM
The spider that I saw, put it's web...all wrapped up...on it's back. I looked it up, and there is a spider that does this. I don't know WHY...just know that it did.

When we lived in Montana...spiders would line up at our door, when the weather started getting cooler...and when we opened it...BAM...they would all run in.

This is from the article about insects overwintering in Colorado..that I posted in a previous link..

SPIDERS: The overwintering habits of spiders varies greatly; however, most of the orb-weaving spiders and other species that act as "passive hunters" and use a web to ensnare prey, winter as eggs that are produced at the end of the growing season. Conversely, many of the more active "hunting spiders," such as wolf spiders, may winter as nymphs, becoming full-grown in spring. A few spiders are quite long-lived. Giant wolf spiders may survive two to three years, and tarantulas a decade or more. They spend winter in protected retreats, such as underground burrows or hollows. Widow spiders also may live a second season in a protected location, although they usually die off in fall. Spiders that move indoors and adapt to indoor conditions with available food, may survive and reproduce year-round.

We can argue about spiders until the cows come home....there is just no way that I believe that a spider, in the middle of a CO. winter, is going to spin a web on that particular window that the "intruder" supposedly used, on the same night as the murder. What's the odds of THAT happening??? That grate was NEVER moved....imo

Well, we can get a panel of experts to comment on this and they probably wouldn't abe able to agree either. Let's just say your opinion is that a spider would not spin a web in Colorado in winter and my opinion is that a spider could very well spin a web in Colorado in winter. Now, whether an IDI came or went through that grate is entirely another matter.

Ames
09-17-2010, 11:38 PM
Well, we can get a panel of experts to comment on this and they probably wouldn't abe able to agree either. Let's just say your opinion is that a spider would not spin a web in Colorado in winter and my opinion is that a spider could very well spin a web in Colorado in winter. Now, whether an IDI came or went through that grate is entirely another matter.

I just took my knowledge of Colorado winters...and several articles that I have read about spiders during the Colorado winters...that is where I came up with spiders do not spin webs in freezing temperatures. They seek warmth...and hanging on a web during a Co. winter isn't warm. I have seen spiders actually trying to come inside...out of cooler weather....which hadn't even reached freezing temperatures. How did you come to your conclusion that spiders DO spin webs in CO. in the winter. Have you EVER been to CO. in the winter??? Just curious. And even if spider's DID spin webs in the freezing temperatures of a CO. winter...if a web had already been there before the night of the murder...moving the grate, and climbing in the window would have broken it. The web was intact....so, either...the intruder moved the grate, and climb through the window, without breaking it...or...the spider spun a web in that exact window, AFTER the intruder climbed back out of it, and replaced the grate. Both scenarios...are ridiculous...to say the least. The web was already there...and the grate was never moved...and an intruder never came in that window. But...let's agree to disagree about the spiders. I was just speaking from experience.

MurriFlower
09-18-2010, 12:24 AM
I just took my knowledge of Colorado winters...and several articles that I have read about spiders during the Colorado winters...that is where I came up with spiders do not spin webs in freezing temperatures. They seek warmth...and hanging on a web during a Co. winter isn't warm. I have seen spiders actually trying to come inside...out of cooler weather....which hadn't even reached freezing temperatures. How did you come to your conclusion that spiders DO spin webs in CO. in the winter. Have you EVER been to CO. in the winter??? Just curious. And even if spider's DID spin webs in the freezing temperatures of a CO. winter...if a web had already been there before the night of the murder...moving the grate, and climbing in the window would have broken it. The web was intact....so, either...the intruder moved the grate, and climb through the window, without breaking it...or...the spider spun a web in that exact window, AFTER the intruder climbed back out of it, and replaced the grate. Both scenarios...are ridiculous...to say the least. The web was already there...and the grate was never moved...and an intruder never came in that window. But...let's agree to disagree about the spiders. I was just speaking from experience.

Ok, well I think you must have missed what I posted, so here it is again FYI.

"House Spider Myths

Myth: Spiders come into houses in the fall to get out of the cold.

Fact: This seemingly simple idea conceals many false assumptions. In reality, house spiders are usually not the same species as the yard or garden spiders outside the house.

House spiders belong to a small number of species specially adapted for indoor conditions (constant climate, poor food supply, very poor water supply). Some house spider species have been living indoors at least since the days of the Roman Empire, and are seldom to be found outside, even in their native countries (usually Europe). Many of these species now live in houses worldwide, and most have been carried by commerce to more than one continent. Few are adapted to North American outdoor environments.

House spiders colonize new houses by egg sacs carried on furniture, building materials and so forth. They usually spend their entire life cycle in, on or under their native building. If a large number appear at a specific season, it is usually late summer (August and September) -- not a notably cold time of year! -- rather than fall, and their appearance coincides with the mating season of the given species. What you are seeing is sexually mature males wandering in search of mates.

The females and young remain hidden for the most part, in crawlspaces, storage areas and other neglected rooms; wall and floor voids; behind furniture and appliances, etc. Generally fewer than 5% of the spiders you see indoors have ever been outdoors.

In contrast, outdoor spider species are not adapted to indoor conditions. Any North American spider that needed artificial shelter for the winter, would have been extinct long before Europeans arrived! Spiders are "cold-blooded" and not attracted to warmth. They don't shiver or get uncomfortable when it's cold, they just become less active and eventually, dormant. Most temperate zone spiders have enough "antifreeze" in their bodies that they won't freeze at any temperature down to -5° C.; some can get colder. The few typical outdoor spiders that do end up indoors, die or at least don't reproduce."

DeeDee249
09-18-2010, 03:31 PM
Obviously this web was spun by an outdoor spider. The SPIDER wasn't there, but the web still was. Operative word: STILL. As in spun long before, nut spun overnight that night.

Ames
09-19-2010, 12:58 PM
Ok, well I think you must have missed what I posted, so here it is again FYI.

"House Spider Myths

Myth: Spiders come into houses in the fall to get out of the cold.

Fact: This seemingly simple idea conceals many false assumptions. In reality, house spiders are usually not the same species as the yard or garden spiders outside the house.

House spiders belong to a small number of species specially adapted for indoor conditions (constant climate, poor food supply, very poor water supply). Some house spider species have been living indoors at least since the days of the Roman Empire, and are seldom to be found outside, even in their native countries (usually Europe). Many of these species now live in houses worldwide, and most have been carried by commerce to more than one continent. Few are adapted to North American outdoor environments.

House spiders colonize new houses by egg sacs carried on furniture, building materials and so forth. They usually spend their entire life cycle in, on or under their native building. If a large number appear at a specific season, it is usually late summer (August and September) -- not a notably cold time of year! -- rather than fall, and their appearance coincides with the mating season of the given species. What you are seeing is sexually mature males wandering in search of mates.

The females and young remain hidden for the most part, in crawlspaces, storage areas and other neglected rooms; wall and floor voids; behind furniture and appliances, etc. Generally fewer than 5% of the spiders you see indoors have ever been outdoors.

In contrast, outdoor spider species are not adapted to indoor conditions. Any North American spider that needed artificial shelter for the winter, would have been extinct long before Europeans arrived! Spiders are "cold-blooded" and not attracted to warmth. They don't shiver or get uncomfortable when it's cold, they just become less active and eventually, dormant. Most temperate zone spiders have enough "antifreeze" in their bodies that they won't freeze at any temperature down to -5° C.; some can get colder. The few typical outdoor spiders that do end up indoors, die or at least don't reproduce."

Hmmm, the spider web was OUTSIDE not inside the home. So what is your point??? Speaking from EXPERIENCE...I have NEVER seen a spider in the winter in Montana...two states up from CO., that has the same exact weather. As DeeDee stated....WHERE was the spider? It was just a web...not the spider in it. The weather was too cold for the spider...therefore it found a warmer place to hide out. Sorry...but, that web was already there..and had probably been for quite some time.

Ames
09-19-2010, 12:59 PM
Obviously this web was spun by an outdoor spider. The SPIDER wasn't there, but the web still was. Operative word: STILL. As in spun long before, nut spun overnight that night.

Exactly!

SuperDave
09-22-2010, 01:49 AM
He wasn't a bad investigator because he believed they were innocent. He was bad investigator because he based his belief of their innocence or guilt on the fact that they prayed with him.

Damn skippy. Let's not get things confused here. That should have been a deal-breaker right there.

SuperDave
09-22-2010, 02:09 AM
Lou Smit also dismissed an unbroken spider web on the window sill, and NO footprints outside the window in the snow... If it was an IDI, this wouldn't be the case!:doh:

That's just the tip of the iceberg, LinasK. He always claimed that if evidence appeared that pointed to the Rs, he'd be the first to pursue it. What he DID was that every time evidence appeared that pointed to the Rs, he was first to dismiss it. He admits that he didn't bother to speak to experts in this case who didn't agree with him; he shopped around until he found questionable experts who did agree with him; he took evidence illegally and disseminated it publically. I can go on and on.

LinasK
09-24-2010, 03:51 AM
That's the way I feel when I read that because he didn't believe they were guilty, that makes him a bad investigator. You completely dismiss the possibility (or probability for me) that they were innocent. However, just keep banging, something might click.
That action alone made him an extremely unprofessional investigator/"expert". I'm convinced Casey Anthony would also pray with her investigators if she thought it would prove her innocence...
And yes, the Ramsey's should never have been cleared as suspects. It couldn't be proven they didn't do it. Patsy was never cleared as the writer of the ransom note. They were the last ones seen with the victim, they had the means, they had opportunity to kill her, and they had their own (twisted) motive(s). LE always starts with the circle of family first, then when they are completely cleared and take lie detector tests that aren't arranged by the very suspects, LE will begin to investigate outward. Also statistics show that often times parents do murder their children. I think the Ramsey's viewed JB as a living doll to suit their needs, not as a person in her own right!

SuperDave
10-02-2010, 11:09 PM
That action alone made him an extremely unprofessional investigator/"expert". I'm convinced Casey Anthony would also pray with her investigators if she thought it would prove her innocence...
And yes, the Ramsey's should never have been cleared as suspects. It couldn't be proven they didn't do it. Patsy was never cleared as the writer of the ransom note. They were the last ones seen with the victim, they had the means, they had opportunity to kill her, and they had their own (twisted) motive(s). LE always starts with the circle of family first, then when they are completely cleared and take lie detector tests that aren't arranged by the very suspects, LE will begin to investigate outward. Also statistics show that often times parents do murder their children. I think the Ramsey's viewed JB as a living doll to suit their needs, not as a person in her own right!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

sogren
10-04-2010, 04:25 PM
LE always starts with the circle of family first, then when they are completely cleared and take lie detector tests that aren't arranged by the very suspects, LE will begin to investigate outward. Also statistics show that often times parents do murder their children. I think the Ramsey's viewed JB as a living doll to suit their needs, not as a person in her own right!

I completely agree! And the body was found in their OWN HOME. Imagine if Caylee Anthony had been found at Casey's ...

DeeDee249
10-04-2010, 10:35 PM
I completely agree! And the body was found in their OWN HOME. Imagine if Caylee Anthony had been found at Casey's ...

She and her parents would STILL say she didn't do it.

joeskidbeck
10-04-2010, 10:40 PM
She and her parents would STILL say she didn't do it.

The nanny broke in and killed her while they were all asleep.

LinasK
10-04-2010, 10:41 PM
She and her parents would STILL say she didn't do it.
It would've been that Roy Kronk/ZF-G broke in and planted the body...:rolleyes:

sogren
10-05-2010, 10:19 AM
OK, admittedly Casey and Caylee Anthony are not good examples to illstrate my point :blushing:
I only used them to show that in a child murder, the child is found elsewhere, typically not in the home ... ESPECIALLY if it's a kidnapping/abduction. There are so many abduction cases where a body has never been recovered, like little Tommy in my sig.
In all the cases that I have personally read about, if a child is found dead in the home, it's goodbye to the parents, who are promptly carted off to jail.

LinasK
10-05-2010, 04:10 PM
OK, admittedly Casey and Caylee Anthony are not good examples to illstrate my point :blushing:
I only used them to show that in a child murder, the child is found elsewhere, typically not in the home ... ESPECIALLY if it's a kidnapping/abduction. There are so many abduction cases where a body has never been recovered, like little Tommy in my sig.
In all the cases that I have personally read about, if a child is found dead in the home, it's goodbye to the parents, who are promptly carted off to jail.
Don't apologize, I'm the one who brought her up, and you are absolutely right! If the Ramsey's had not had the wealth and power they did in Boulder, they would have been brought in that night, instead of LE and the D.A.'s office catering to them. They should never have been allowed to search the house on their own, nor should they have been allowed to shop for their own lie detector tests, IMO!!!:twocents::furious:

Linda7NJ
10-05-2010, 04:48 PM
Don't apologize, I'm the one who brought her up, and you are absolutely right! If the Ramsey's had not had the wealth and power they did in Boulder, they would have been brought in that night, instead of LE and the D.A.'s office catering to them. They should never have been allowed to search the house on their own, nor should they have been allowed to shop for their own lie detector tests, IMO!!!:twocents::furious:


Anyone is allowed to shop their own polygraphs! They got what they paid for. So I take it for what's it's worth...ZERO

sogren
10-05-2010, 07:12 PM
Don't apologize, I'm the one who brought her up, and you are absolutely right! If the Ramsey's had not had the wealth and power they did in Boulder, they would have been brought in that night, instead of LE and the D.A.'s office catering to them. They should never have been allowed to search the house on their own, nor should they have been allowed to shop for their own lie detector tests, IMO!!!:twocents::furious:


Yes and Casey doesn't have the connections the Ramseys did!! Also think of the parents who have tried to "pull a Ramsey" lately and say their child was kidnapped and or ran away, only to have body uncovered days later. Where are those parents now? Jail? Yes I think so! :waitasec:

SuperDave
10-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Don't apologize, I'm the one who brought her up, and you are absolutely right! If the Ramsey's had not had the wealth and power they did in Boulder, they would have been brought in that night, instead of LE and the D.A.'s office catering to them. They should never have been allowed to search the house on their own, nor should they have been allowed to shop for their own lie detector tests, IMO!!!:twocents::furious:

Absolutely right. The only difference is that here you had tough prosecutors and a single defendant too poor to hire lawyers who control half the state.

DeeDee249
10-05-2010, 09:25 PM
The police WANTED to arrest the parents that day, despite their wealth and political connections. It was DA AH who caved in to their wealth and political connections and refused to allow it.

CathyR
10-13-2010, 12:51 PM
I thought I'd try and see what SBTC meant and entered in my search engine.
Wow a game came up as well as the Southern Baptists Texas Convention ( ROFL).
It is the second to last listing on the link.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/SBTC.html

Could this be "the game" does anyone have one or know someone who plays it. Send a copy to Super Dave ( sorry for volunteering you without asking first). I'm sure he could pick it apart and maybe find some info there like wording from the RN.

Seems like the term comes from the on line game Chaos. I'll ask my son the gamer in our family. He used to work in a "gaming store" in high school and knows a lot about games like this.

LinasK
10-13-2010, 02:29 PM
I thought I'd try and see what SBTC meant and entered in my search engine.
Wow a game came up as well as the Southern Baptists Texas Convention ( ROFL).
It is the second to last listing on the link.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/SBTC.html

Could this be "the game" does anyone have one or know someone who plays it. Send a copy to Super Dave ( sorry for volunteering you without asking first). I'm sure he could pick it apart and maybe find some info there like wording from the RN.

Seems like the term comes from the on line game Chaos. I'll ask my son the gamer in our family. He used to work in a "gaming store" in high school and knows a lot about games like this.
SBTC can mean a lot of things, without knowing the mind of the RN writer, it's all just assumption. SBTC can also mean: Saved By The Cross, Starfleet Base Training Center, Subic Bay Training Command, and Southern Bell Telephone Company. We've had extensive discussions on this topic. Try researching the archived threads on this forum!

SuperDave
10-13-2010, 05:30 PM
I thought I'd try and see what SBTC meant and entered in my search engine.
Wow a game came up as well as the Southern Baptists Texas Convention ( ROFL).
It is the second to last listing on the link.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/SBTC.html

Could this be "the game" does anyone have one or know someone who plays it. Send a copy to Super Dave ( sorry for volunteering you without asking first). I'm sure he could pick it apart and maybe find some info there like wording from the RN.

Seems like the term comes from the on line game Chaos. I'll ask my son the gamer in our family. He used to work in a "gaming store" in high school and knows a lot about games like this.

I'm always interested when my name comes up. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive (and that's happened before--ask anyone here who's known me a while), but that sounded vaguely like a shot against me.

joeskidbeck
10-13-2010, 06:51 PM
I'm always interested when my name comes up. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive (and that's happened before--ask anyone here who's known me a while), but that sounded vaguely like a shot against me.

I hope not, Dave. Everyone here knows that you are JonBenet's biggest advocate. If only the Boulder DA's office had cared as much as you do! We wouldn't be having these conversations, that's for sure!

my_tee_mouse
10-13-2010, 07:21 PM
I'm always interested when my name comes up. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive (and that's happened before--ask anyone here who's known me a while), but that sounded vaguely like a shot against me.
Yes it did, didn't it? Only not really so vague. And just copy and paste joeskid's comments here and add a "ditto" to them.

claudicici
10-13-2010, 07:42 PM
The ransom note language always reminded me so much of "gamer" talk,that was always my issue with it that points away from PR,IMO
IMO a gamer or someone familiar with gaming wrote that note.

DeeDee249
10-13-2010, 10:27 PM
The ransom note language always reminded me so much of "gamer" talk,that was always my issue with it that points away from PR,IMO
IMO a gamer or someone familiar with gaming wrote that note.

Some of us here are unfamiliar with "gamer" language, so will you please explain what part of the RN seems like that to you and why? Because to me, there is nothing that seems like a young male (the typical "gamer") wrote the note.

joeskidbeck
10-13-2010, 10:46 PM
Some of us here are unfamiliar with "gamer" language, so will you please explain what part of the RN seems like that to you and why? Because to me, there is nothing that seems like a young male (the typical "gamer") wrote the note.

Me too, DeeDee. I'm not really sure what the term "gamer" means in this scenario. In 1996 we bought our first home computer and I remember my 17 yo step-son playing "Sim City" online, but that's really the only one I recall. I know that means nothing, I'm gamer illiterate, but those of you who aren't, please chime in and clue me in about the language of the rn.
TIA!
Becky

claudicici
10-14-2010, 12:11 AM
A lot of games that were popular in the 90's like Civilization or Dune were all about building empires ,the empire you build was your faction.Civilization had a character named "fat cat'.I was never much into it but I was in the chat rooms at times and "don't try to grow a brain" or "I'm becoming a fat cat" and of course "victory" and "I shall be the conquerer" (s.b.t.c.) are all things frequently mentioned.
"World of Warcraft" and a lot of the medieval themed games use garottes as a weapon.
I can't find any links to the old chat rooms but I'll post some of the ones out there now ....

claudicici
10-14-2010, 12:24 AM
"Elemental" game chat,lots of talk about factions...

http://forums.elementalgame.com/382046

"Civilization" Fan site

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/colonization/info

"World of Warcraft" chat

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25171934093&sid=1

txsvicki
10-14-2010, 02:27 AM
One theory I thought of a couple of years back after the BTK was caught is that SBTC could stand for Stun Bind Torture Club (as in club, hit over the head)

joeskidbeck
10-14-2010, 06:25 AM
Does anyone know if John's business holdings included a computer game manufacturer?

joeskidbeck
10-14-2010, 06:29 AM
And we know Burke had one of the gaming systems because John bragged in one of the interviews that Patsy had scored one when there were none to be had. I wonder which of those games did he play with his son? I remember in one of the earlier stories he said that he played with Burke for a few minutes before going to bed. I believe if BR owned the ones using those terms, JR would have remembered as they are terms that also applied to him.

21merc7
10-14-2010, 06:31 AM
While I still don't know anything about gamers, I have always thought "foreign faction" extremely odd. Who says that?! Maybe Patsy played games with Burke. IDK, but it drives me up a wall thinking how obvious just those 2 words were to anyone reading them.

CathyR
10-14-2010, 08:48 AM
Sorry Dave not an insult intended here on my part. I VALUE your opinion and figured with all your knowledge about this case you would be the most qualified to see what is in the game and if any language like foreign faction, beheading etc came up in the game content.
I may not agree with you on all points but you never make me feel stupid or insult me. You are a good debater you stick to the points and don't resort to underhanded tactics to make a point. No shots fired from this side.

CathyR
10-14-2010, 09:27 AM
I have played an online game by Blizzard called Diablo, DiabloII and Diablo expansion. My kids are the ones who introduced me to it. I have passed on Warcraft, and others. We may think things get heated in our forum but those gamers-------. They get very upset about very minor things.
I was once "partied up" ( you join other gamers in a team effort to kill the monsters) with higher level players to kill the final monster. They instructed me in the chat forum to just stand back and only fire 2 shots at monster. They would do the rest and I would get credit and pass on to next level as my "party" had killed the monster. My character stood back but evidently not far enough or in a spot that didn't please everyone in my party. One of the upper level players "died" and I stood guard over body till they could come back and claim it. The player invited me to play another level and "unpartied" as soon as we entered the next dungeon level. He killed me stole all my gold and then explained I was responsible for his character dying. I pointed out I had no idea where to stand they were not specific in instruction, I had guarded his gold and body preventing other players from stealing it. This player held a huge grudge and would look me up when I played on line and kill me. This went on for months. I assumed this person was a kid who didn't know how to deal with set backs and adversity in life. It turned out to be an adult. A 30 something man who obviously didn't have a job and played this game like it was real life. My son started playing my character and of course kids are better at these games than most adults. He managed to find times when this gamer was not online and found out from others that this guy was a menace to all who played with him. He got into a conversation with him as a different character and found out the info on him.
Dave if you research the game and play it be prepared. Some of these gamers are worse than any person ever banned from this forum and that includes Jams. You thought she would be hard to beat in sense of extremes, she wouldn't raise an eyebrow in some of these gamer communities.
I would just ask my son to compare the RN and the gamer language but he thinks we are all bored housewives with nothing better to do than discuss cold cases with little to no real facts to substantiate our opinions. He would not be very motivated or dedicated to finding any answers. Once again I apologize if you felt insulted by my previous post.

claudicici
10-14-2010, 09:44 AM
Murryflower pointed out in another thread that there is a Jesse McReynolds who is a game developer! We could never prove that it is indeed Santa's son but Diablo is one of the games a Jesse McRrynolds developed.So is World of Warcraft.
He is seen with a lot of computer equipment in one of the interviews conducted at his home....

CathyR
10-14-2010, 09:55 AM
Some of these track a person down sites like info space and intellius will list possible relatives. You don't have to go to the pay for it sites to get this info. Maybe not a son but nephew, etc. I'll see what I can dig up and post a link if I find anything.
Thanks for the lead.

CathyR
10-14-2010, 09:58 AM
I looked up his OBIT and look at who is listed as a son.

https://www.cu.edu/sg/messages/1233.html

CathyR
10-14-2010, 10:12 AM
Gamer language wouldn't rule out JR or PR. The fact that a RN might contain gamer language could also point to ANYONE being familiar with that language. The R's could have picked up the language from Burke or John Andrew, people who might have actually played the games. The RN is a red herring regardless of who did it. It was meant to throw doubt and confuse the investigators regardless of who did it. The RN is not real in the sense that anyone really attempted to kidnap JBR. She was the target and the RN an attempt to cover up.

I am somewhat familiar with gamer language and I'm a grandmother who celebrates the 30 plus anniversary of my 18th birthday every year. You don't have to be a young whipper snapper to know the language.

LinasK
10-14-2010, 01:44 PM
Gamer language wouldn't rule out JR or PR. The fact that a RN might contain gamer language could also point to ANYONE being familiar with that language. The R's could have picked up the language from Burke or John Andrew, people who might have actually played the games. The RN is a red herring regardless of who did it. It was meant to throw doubt and confuse the investigators regardless of who did it. The RN is not real in the sense that anyone really attempted to kidnap JBR. She was the target and the RN an attempt to cover up.

I am somewhat familiar with gamer language and I'm a grandmother who celebrates the 30 plus anniversary of my 18th birthday every year. You don't have to be a young whipper snapper to know the language.
"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

joeskidbeck
10-14-2010, 03:27 PM
"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

"Fat cats" are also a group of Atlanta business men that JR was a part of. It seems this was considered an honor and JR's inlaws made mention of his being a "fat cat" often.

SuperDave
10-14-2010, 04:21 PM
Sorry Dave not an insult intended here on my part. I VALUE your opinion and figured with all your knowledge about this case you would be the most qualified to see what is in the game and if any language like foreign faction, beheading etc came up in the game content.
I may not agree with you on all points but you never make me feel stupid or insult me. You are a good debater you stick to the points and don't resort to underhanded tactics to make a point. No shots fired from this side.

I'm the one to apologize, CathyR. Like I said, sometimes I see problems where there are none. After this many years, it comes with the territory.

I would extend the same compliments to you. You're new, but you've already impressed me, and that's hard to do.

Tell you what. I'll give this game the once-over, and I'll talk to my brother, who is an avid gamer and might know more about it.


Dave if you research the game and play it be prepared. Some of these gamers are worse than any person ever banned from this forum and that includes Jams. You thought she would be hard to beat in sense of extremes, she wouldn't raise an eyebrow in some of these gamer communities.

Yeah, I know. It's like tap dancing in a minefield.


I would just ask my son to compare the RN and the gamer language but he thinks we are all bored housewives with nothing better to do than discuss cold cases with little to no real facts to substantiate our opinions. He would not be very motivated or dedicated to finding any answers.

Yeah, that's the stereotype we have to live with.


Once again I apologize if you felt insulted by my previous post.

I didn't feel insulted. I didn't know if that was your intention, so I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt before I flew off the handle.

DeeDee249
10-14-2010, 09:15 PM
I believe it was a Nintedo game that BR got for Christmas that year.

sogren
10-14-2010, 09:27 PM
Gamer language or not, I really don't think Burke was sophisticated enough to write that note.

EastCoast
10-14-2010, 09:36 PM
No way Burke Ramsey]wrote the ransom note

CathyR
10-14-2010, 10:02 PM
The handwriting is too neat even with the cross outs for a 9 year old to write. My son and my cousin have text book perfect handwriting and neither of them could have written the note at age 9. I think the posters who believe Burke did it also believe that Patsy and John covered up for him and one of them would have to be the author. In a Burke did it theory no one can put forth a viable scenario without him having some help from someone who is an adult.

CathyR
10-14-2010, 10:09 PM
"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

So the RN has components of "old fashioned" terms like fat cat, and grow a brain. It also has some gamer language in it, and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11). There is a thread here somewhere with linguistics as the subject.

LinasK
10-14-2010, 10:44 PM
So the RN has components of "old fashioned" terms like fat cat, and grow a brain. It also has some gamer language in it, and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11). There is a thread here somewhere with linguistics as the subject.
There are also French terms in it such as "attache". Patsy knew French. Most people would just say "brief case".
The language used in the note doesn't :snooty:rule out Patsy as the writer, or John could've dictated to her.
F.Y.I. I'm an RDI who believes John was the killer...

CathyR
10-14-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.

joeskidbeck
10-15-2010, 01:07 AM
I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.

All of this would work for me if it weren't for the prior sexual abuse. They knew if this was called in as an accident LE would be on their steps looking for the abuser. Accident or murder, they had to stage the cover-up.

joeskidbeck
10-15-2010, 01:09 AM
I guess it's pretty apparent that I'm RDI but I wasn't always. I believed the IDI until I learned of the prior abuse. That changed everything for me and I cannot find my way back to believing in Ramsey innocence.

CathyR
10-15-2010, 10:16 AM
All of this would work for me if it weren't for the prior sexual abuse. They knew if this was called in as an accident LE would be on their steps looking for the abuser. Accident or murder, they had to stage the cover-up.

The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

sogren
10-15-2010, 10:26 AM
I guess it's pretty apparent that I'm RDI but I wasn't always. I believed the IDI until I learned of the prior abuse. That changed everything for me and I cannot find my way back to believing in Ramsey innocence.

I was an IDI too. After doing my "homework" so to speak, I can't believe I ever thought they were innocent.

UKGuy
10-15-2010, 10:32 AM
The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

CathyR,
It is our theory because we do not have access to all the autopsy evidence. Not all of it has been released. JonBenet's photographs, which form part of the autopsy evidence, make it evident that not all her injuries were acute e.g. simply sustained at around the time of her death. Regardless of whomever inflicted them JonBenet's abnormal vagina is direct evidence of chronic sexual abuse

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.


Also:-


Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

So someone wiped JonBenet down after her death, and potentially after the size-12's were placed on her, so why would anyone want to do that, whats to hide?

Dr. Ronald Wright opined:-


BOULDER -- JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.
''She's been sexually assaulted,'' said Wright, who served as the medical examiner in Broward County, Fla., 13 years.
"She's had vaginal penetration.''
Wright -- who has done consulting for the FBI and worked on the Elvis Presley autopsy -- joined a growing chorus of out-of-town experts who see sexual assault as part of the unsolved Christmas night murder.


JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 24. states:-


In mid-September, a panel pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed

And JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 32. states:-


Detective Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting attended primarly for men. She showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of jonBenet. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse although the detectives referred to it only as 'prior vaginal trauma.'


So we have digital penetrationand sexual contact. We have JonBenet being wiped down, and numerous experts who viewed the same photographs citing chronic sexual abuse. I do not think its a mass conspiracy against the R's, or something that can be explained away innocently.

All this evidence suggests that this is a sexually motivated homicide. thats why there was staging not to hide the homicide that was done, no it was to hide and mask the prior molestation!


.

joeskidbeck
10-15-2010, 11:08 AM
Thanks, UKGuy. When I combine all the evidence such as her toileting issues and the coroner's and witness' statements, I come up with prior abuse. It's like the rest of this case, it's not just one thing that points to abuse but a totality of the evidence.

Tadpole12
10-15-2010, 11:17 AM
The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

Heyya CathyR.

That's the thing, as you word it.

"I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so....." - CR

You won't.

It all goes back to the numerous discusssion here on the numerous threads about ....

...terms of description a coronerer or forensic pathologist would use vs the criteria, used by medical community. which indicates / suggest sexual abuse.

LinasK
10-15-2010, 01:37 PM
I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.
That's what I think!

UKGuy
10-15-2010, 02:24 PM
That's what I think!

LinasK,

I agree, but you left out Burke Ramsey. He who saw JonBenet walk into the house and likely sipped tea from the glass, as JonBenet sat opposite snacking pineapple. So he knows the official version of events does not match what took place that night, his silence means he is colluding to keep someone safe?


.

LinasK
10-15-2010, 02:50 PM
LinasK,

I agree, but you left out Burke Ramsey. He who saw JonBenet walk into the house and likely sipped tea from the glass, as JonBenet sat opposite snacking pineapple. So he knows the official version of events does not match what took place that night, his silence means he is colluding to keep someone safe?


.
Yup! I think his father is still keeping him silent somehow, whether it's out of fear or money I don't know...

CathyR
10-15-2010, 02:56 PM
The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child. If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better. I don't when and where he went to school but pediatricians are now trained to look for sexual abuse in children, not just unexplained injuries like bruises and broken bones.

CathyR
10-15-2010, 03:01 PM
Heyya CathyR.

That's the thing, as you word it.

"I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so....." - CR

You won't.

Read the post by UKGuy- seems there is some.

It all goes back to the numerous discussion here on the numerous threads about ....

...terms of description a coroner or forensic pathologist would use vs the criteria, used by medical community. which indicates / suggest sexual abuse.


OK it is talking like a duck now.

LinasK
10-15-2010, 03:11 PM
The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child. If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better. I don't when and where he went to school but pediatricians are now trained to look for sexual abuse in children, not just unexplained injuries like bruises and broken bones.
Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

CathyR
10-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

I agree!!!!!!

The Dr. and the chimney- how did this person graduate medical school or even the 3rd grade. Jethro Bodine knew better, it isn't like she is the first person to attempt this either. All were caught and had to be cut out of the chimney if they were still alive.
Imagine that being your Dr and you find out what she did, I'd be requesting medical records pronto, discontinue any meds that wouldn't be life threatening to quit taking and find a new Dr. quick.

:Banane45: The last one made my day, my sides still hurt from laughing so hard.

joeskidbeck
10-17-2010, 07:34 PM
I think there's another side to the pediatrician that we are not seeing. If he was a family friend to the Ramsey's, he could have easily spoken to Patsy about molestation and never put the notes on JB's record. I don't think we can take him at his word simply because she was at his office too many times with yeast and bladder infections. It is unthinkable in this day and age that a doctor would not be looking for signs of molestation. It is possible that this doctors "talk" with Patsy could have set this whole thing in motion.

DeeDee249
10-17-2010, 08:27 PM
From accounts of people who knew them, JB's pediatrician was in awe of the Rs. He belonged to the same Country Club and he played golf with them frequently.
He may have suspected something, in view of her repeated infections- he may have spoken to Patsy about it, possibly he may have wondered if there was any "exploring" being done by a curious older brother.
BUT keep in mind he did NOT do an internal pelvic exam on JB, and without that he would not have seen evidence of abuse like erosion, hyperemia, etc.
Pelvic exams can't be done on children without putting them under some type of anesthetic, similar to what they might need for getting a tooth pulled. It would be a procedure not done under normal circumstances. WE know there was abuse because it was revealed in an AUTOPSY. It wouldn't be revealed in an average exam a pediatrician might do.
His failure to address the real reason for her many infections may be deeply inept, but his failure to do a pelvic exam or discover her injuries is not illegal. Nor would he be stripped of his license. He would simply say he had no reason to perform such an exam, nor did he see any symptoms of abuse. And that would be the end of his responsibility.
I think he suspected something which he kept hidden (on Patsy's behalf, IMO). He refused to turn over the medical records of a little girl who was MURDERED with a sexual aspect to the crime! And he was aided in this deception by the DA, who refused a warrant for the records to the police.
I cannot think of ANY reason why a pediatrician would refuse that request and hide the medical records of one of his patients who had been murdered UNLESS there was something in his notes implicating a family member in some type of abusive contact with the child

Ames
10-18-2010, 12:15 AM
From accounts of people who knew them, JB's pediatrician was in awe of the Rs. He belonged to the same Country Club and he played golf with them frequently.
He may have suspected something, in view of her repeated infections- he may have spoken to Patsy about it, possibly he may have wondered if there was any "exploring" being done by a curious older brother.
BUT keep in mind he did NOT do an internal pelvic exam on JB, and without that he would not have seen evidence of abuse like erosion, hyperemia, etc.
Pelvic exams can't be done on children without putting them under some type of anesthetic, similar to what they might need for getting a tooth pulled. It would be a procedure not done under normal circumstances. WE know there was abuse because it was revealed in an AUTOPSY. It wouldn't be revealed in an average exam a pediatrician might do.
His failure to address the real reason for her many infections may be deeply inept, but his failure to do a pelvic exam or discover her injuries is not illegal. Nor would he be stripped of his license. He would simply say he had no reason to perform such an exam, nor did he see any symptoms of abuse. And that would be the end of his responsibility.
I think he suspected something which he kept hidden (on Patsy's behalf, IMO). He refused to turn over the medical records of a little girl who was MURDERED with a sexual aspect to the crime! And he was aided in this deception by the DA, who refused a warrant for the records to the police.
I cannot think of ANY reason why a pediatrician would refuse that request and hide the medical records of one of his patients who had been murdered UNLESS there was something in his notes implicating a family member in some type of abusive contact with the child

He still practices in Boulder too...and his patients and their parents love him. I have no idea why!

CathyR
10-18-2010, 09:43 AM
i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

joeskidbeck
10-18-2010, 01:31 PM
i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

And then, instead of going directly to LE about all those visits with JonBenet, he goes to Patsy and precribes medication to calm her. Do we really believe Patsy didn't have a doctor she could have called in this time of stress? I believe he knew more than he ever told or ever will tell.

joeskidbeck
10-18-2010, 01:32 PM
This instance is one of the times when the Ramsey's phone records from that night would be really helpful. It's possible this doctor was called immediately after the head wound.

SuperDave
10-18-2010, 02:12 PM
and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11).

If I could focus on this one momentarily:

One, your linking beheading with Islamist extremists lends credence to my assertion (made many times) that it was that image the note writer was trying to convey. But more importantly, as I've also said many times, while we know far more about islamist violence since 9/11 than we did before it, even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they chop off heads in that part of the world.

SuperDave
10-18-2010, 02:28 PM
Thanks, UKGuy. When I combine all the evidence such as her toileting issues and the coroner's and witness' statements, I come up with prior abuse. It's like the rest of this case, it's not just one thing that points to abuse but a totality of the evidence.

Exactly. It's not just the physical or behavioral evidence. It's ALL of them together.

A few other things:

1) The assertion that no abuser would risk taking their child to the doctor may be a false one. As Wendy Murphy, a sex crimes prosecutor states in her book, sometimes this is a cry for help. Moreover, the doctor said he never performed the kind of examination that would have been able to tell while she was still alive.

2) One of the doctors who attended JB post-mortem may indeed have made his feelings known. Andrew Sirotnak examined JB's genital injuries at the autopsy. In 2001, he co-authored a treatise on child abuse using JB as his patient zero. His co-author? Richard Krugman, a member of the panel ST mentions in his book (I can name them all, if anyone's interested) and a devout believer in chronic abuse.

joeskidbeck
10-18-2010, 02:38 PM
Exactly. It's not just the physical or behavioral evidence. It's ALL of them together.

A few other things:

1) The assertion that no abuser would risk taking their child to the doctor may be a false one. As Wendy Murphy, a sex crimes prosecutor states in her book, sometimes this is a cry for help. Moreover, the doctor said he never performed the kind of examination that would have been able to tell while she was still alive.

2) One of the doctors who attended JB post-mortem may indeed have made his feelings known. Andrew Sirotnak examined JB's genital injuries at the autopsy. In 2001, he co-authored a treatise on child abuse using JB as his patient zero. His co-author? Richard Krugman, a member of the panel ST mentions in his book (I can name them all, if anyone's interested) and a devout believer in chronic abuse.

BBM
Maybe a mother who suspected someone was abusing her child would take her to the doctor, if for no other reason than to allay her suspicions. She could have done this without coming right out and asking the doctor. Could be the reason she had JB at the pediatricians so many times. I can understand her wanting to know, yet not wanting to know. It's a tough situation to be in and I don't envy anyone in it. I can also understand how she would rationalise this in her own mind. "There can't be anyone molesting JonBenet, if there was, her doctor would have known it immediately".

SuperDave
10-18-2010, 02:41 PM
The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child.

I sure do!


If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better.

For all I know, that may have been exactly what PR was after.

SuperDave
10-18-2010, 02:45 PM
Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

There was another one a few years ago. Ricky Holland, I believe. His pediatrician found no evidence of abuse. Little Ricky later wound up dead at the hands of his father. (And we know the father did it, because he has apologized. And an apology is the same as a confession.)

LinasK
10-18-2010, 04:42 PM
Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!
In addition, doctors have a duty as first responders/mandatory reporters to report suspected abuse as do many other health professionals and teachers...

DeeDee249
10-18-2010, 10:49 PM
i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.

MurriFlower
10-18-2010, 11:05 PM
A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Labial_adhesions

"
Summary

Labial adhesions, or fused labia, means that the inner lips of the external female genitals (labia minora) have stuck together. This common condition affects up to two per cent of girls aged three months to six years. In most cases, labial adhesions resolve by themselves during the onset of puberty without the need for medical treatment. Treatment may include oestrogen cream and surgery to separate the labia.

Symptoms
The symptoms of labial adhesions can include:

* The inner lips are joined together.
* The condition is usually painless.
* There may be some vulval soreness in some cases.
* Dribbling urine after going to the toilet may be a problem.
* There may be some vulval soreness after urinating in some cases.
* In severe cases, there may be an inability to pass urine.

A range of causes
The exact cause is unknown, but it is strongly suspected that labial adhesions are caused by irritation to the external genitals. The range of possible irritants include:

* Faeces
* Urine
* Strongly perfumed soaps
* Bubble baths
* Inflammatory conditions such as vulvitis
* Atopic dermatitis
* Pinworms
* Labial injuries
* Sexual abuse.

The labia fuse together
The outer skin surface (squamous epithelial layer) of the labia minora is thin and delicate. Irritation and inflammation can cause the outer skin to become exposed and raw. The two raw lips then heal together in much the same way as any skin cut might heal. Usually, the labia start to fuse at the bottom end (posterior fourchette), closest to the anus, and work up towards the clitoris.

Labial adhesions are more common during the nappy years. Poor hygiene is thought to be a common cause in older girls. Low oestrogen levels (hypo-oestrogenism) are also thought to contribute to the development of labial adhesions. The condition resolves during puberty because the effect of the female hormone oestrogen changes the cells that line the genitals.
"

DeeDee249
10-18-2010, 11:23 PM
JB however, had labia that were NOT fused, though many of the conditions you mention apply to her. That alone is suspicious to me. Unless the pediatrician attempted to do a pelvic exam or look at the hymen he would not know that. There is nothing to indicate that her doctor made any attempt to view her hymen or examine her labia. If he did so, he did not say it.

MurriFlower
10-18-2010, 11:26 PM
JB however, had labia that were NOT fused, though many of the conditions you mention apply to her. That alone is suspicious to me. Unless the pediatrician attempted to do a pelvic exam or look at the hymen he would not know that. There is nothing to indicate that her doctor made any attempt to view her hymen or examine her labia. If he did so, he did not say it.

Fused labia is a medical condition it is not the normal condition.

Bobbarita
10-18-2010, 11:49 PM
As we posulate Patsy's reactions to whatever may or may not have been discovered and discussed with the pediatrician, let's not forget the item in evidence that startled Steve Thomas and his colleague---the dictionary page folded to to the word "incest".

SuperDave
10-19-2010, 12:45 PM
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Labial_adhesions

"
Summary

Labial adhesions, or fused labia, means that the inner lips of the external female genitals (labia minora) have stuck together. This common condition affects up to two per cent of girls aged three months to six years. In most cases, labial adhesions resolve by themselves during the onset of puberty without the need for medical treatment. Treatment may include oestrogen cream and surgery to separate the labia.

Symptoms
The symptoms of labial adhesions can include:

* The inner lips are joined together.
* The condition is usually painless.
* There may be some vulval soreness in some cases.
* Dribbling urine after going to the toilet may be a problem.
* There may be some vulval soreness after urinating in some cases.
* In severe cases, there may be an inability to pass urine.

A range of causes
The exact cause is unknown, but it is strongly suspected that labial adhesions are caused by irritation to the external genitals. The range of possible irritants include:

* Faeces
* Urine
* Strongly perfumed soaps
* Bubble baths
* Inflammatory conditions such as vulvitis
* Atopic dermatitis
* Pinworms
* Labial injuries
* Sexual abuse.

The labia fuse together
The outer skin surface (squamous epithelial layer) of the labia minora is thin and delicate. Irritation and inflammation can cause the outer skin to become exposed and raw. The two raw lips then heal together in much the same way as any skin cut might heal. Usually, the labia start to fuse at the bottom end (posterior fourchette), closest to the anus, and work up towards the clitoris.

Labial adhesions are more common during the nappy years. Poor hygiene is thought to be a common cause in older girls. Low oestrogen levels (hypo-oestrogenism) are also thought to contribute to the development of labial adhesions. The condition resolves during puberty because the effect of the female hormone oestrogen changes the cells that line the genitals.
"

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. We're not necessarily talking about a medical condition here. As Dr. John McCann, one of the panel members that ST mentions, said in his report to the DA's office, the labia of a child that age tend to remain closed unless manually separated.

CathyR
10-19-2010, 02:04 PM
A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.


I don't don't where you got your fused labia info (that isn't normal).

I was ROFL for quite a while. The autopsy report would have referred to her labia as having that condition and it did not.

There is a condition where the labia is fused and babies are diagnosed with it and an estrogen cream is often used. By 6 years old JBR would have had some treatment as it would have been advised long before 6 years of age.

Here is is link to a "moms" site discussing it.

fused labia? - MotheringDotCommunity Forums


I have one my sisters have one, my daughter has one, and none of us had any fusion of our labia at 6 years of age.

CathyR
10-19-2010, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE=SuperDave;5703081]I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. We're not necessarily talking about a medical condition here. As Dr. John McCann, one of the panel members that ST mentions, said in his report to the DA's office, the labia of a child that age tend to remain closed unless manually separated.[/QUOTE

Yes that is true, closed but not FUSED. JBR had some issues that required Patsy to try and be extra diligent in her cleaning. She would have to separate her labia and clean around her urethra and the surrounding skin as the tendency to stay closed labia would trap bacteria and the higher than normal acid content of her urine would be irritating to her labia. Both sets. Did any of you ladies even know you have Labia major and Labia minor. The minor being closer to the opening of your vagina (where a hymen is located).

This reminds me of a fight I had with my mom over my "monthly". I wanted to use tampons and she said I would injure myself and insisted I consult our family doctor. He told her if I started to hurt myself I would stop as it would feel painful. I was 14. It takes more force than tampon insertion to break it and JBR's was still intact but erosion was at the 7 o'clock position.
If I were having to clean someone in that area I would most likely use a washcloth. The direction I would wipe would be towards the bottom and along the side of her labia. I see it is possible for Patsy to have caused further damage to an already irritated JBR's labia. JBR would have cried or complained IMO alerting her it was too rough. The autopsy report alludes to this healing and it is being used here as proof she was sexually assaulted prior to her death.

The erronous post about fused labia caused a firestorm of medical evidence we should not ignore, it also shows how severely labia can be damaged by infections and the very things listed as causes. Sexual abuse is not the only cause it is one and should not be ignored but the evidence supporting it is very small and has yet passed a "litmus test".

One of the things I noticed as I reread the post about the panel of doctors is 2 photos were shown. One was of a girl with a normal vaginal area. Same age as JBR. The other is a post mortem photo of JBR's area.

The photos cannot be compared as one is alive and the other dead. Post mortem lividity and a living person...... and the color is going to be off big time.

Where these experts informed of JBR's past medical history? Her bed wetting, bladder, vaginitis, her long standing (at least 6 months) history of these issues?

If not then the person showing the photos isn't very fair minded or intellectually gifted. In order to make a scientific comparison valid the small details must be paid attention to. A presentation to a group of doctors, they are going to assume the presenter did their homework and presented a fair case comparison. A living normal 6 year old isn't the criteria needed for comparison. JBR had some big issues that affect the evidence as presented.

You may not want to ever have to compare it to another dead child but at least compare it to a child with the same long term bed wetting, etc. issues where it is KNOWN no abuse has occurred and this is what irritation and even erosion looks like. Then account for the subjects being live and deceased. Then examine only the areas where it is suspected to be previous abuse.
Compare those two areas of the girls as it would be a fair comparison.

JBR was sexually assaulted and the injuries she received were bad enough to have caused her pain and not just a little of it. Looking for comparisons generally speaking only conclude what we already know. She WAS assaulted sexually before she died. The sexual assault left behind injuries that were easily detected at autopsy.





The swelling of the body also makes all parts of the body bigger. How many hours after death were the photos taken. Since JBR was laying on her back a great deal of blood pooled on her backside and could affect the coloring of her vaginal area too. It depends upon the time of death and when the ME did the photos. They may have been done as part of and after the autopsy itself.

After reading and reeading the post about the doctors viewing the photos I have more questions ( and I thought I had found answers).

SuperDave
10-19-2010, 03:32 PM
This reminds me of a fight I had with my mom over my "monthly". I wanted to use tampons and she said I would injure myself and insisted I consult our family doctor. He told her if I started to hurt myself I would stop as it would feel painful. I was 14. It takes more force than tampon insertion to break it and JBR's was still intact but erosion was at the 7 o'clock position.

I'm not sure that's a good comparison. The hymen becomes much more elastic upon the onset of puberty.


The erronous post about fused labia caused a firestorm of medical evidence we should not ignore, it also shows how severely labia can be damaged by infections and the very things listed as causes. Sexual abuse is not the only cause it is one and should not be ignored but the evidence supporting it is very small and has yet passed a "litmus test".

What litmus test would that be?


One of the things I noticed as I reread the post about the panel of doctors is 2 photos were shown. One was of a girl with a normal vaginal area. Same age as JBR. The other is a post mortem photo of JBR's area.

The photos cannot be compared as one is alive and the other dead. Post mortem lividity and a living person...... and the color is going to be off big time.

It wasn't just the color, the way I understand it.


Where these experts informed of JBR's past medical history? Her bed wetting, bladder, vaginitis, her long standing (at least 6 months) history of these issues?

From what I understand, they were informed. Virginia Rau and Richard Krugman mentioned those things.


If not then the person showing the photos isn't very fair minded or intellectually gifted.

Actually, the way I remember it, those comparison photos were shown to the DA's staff.


In order to make a scientific comparison valid the small details must be paid attention to. A presentation to a group of doctors, they are going to assume the presenter did their homework and presented a fair case comparison. A living normal 6 year old isn't the criteria needed for comparison. JBR had some big issues that affect the evidence as presented.

From what I understand, they were aware of these things. John McCann specifically mentioned the criteria to be looked for.


After reading and reeading the post about the doctors viewing the photos I have more questions ( and I thought I had found answers).

I'm completely open to you. Shoot.

KoldKase
10-19-2010, 03:52 PM
I will never understand why some prefer to argue over every possible detail of what might or might not have been some far fetched causation for the obvious signs of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy when the child was clearly sexually assaulted and murdered.

Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

Oh, and lucky intruder, he just happened to write exactly like Patsy Ramsey.

Maybe I think too logically. I can't see how these crimes were committed by anyone but one or more of the three people in the home that night.

SuperDave
10-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

That would be my question, all right.

Roy23
10-19-2010, 04:24 PM
I will never understand why some prefer to argue over every possible detail of what might or might not have been some far fetched causation for the obvious signs of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy when the child was clearly sexually assaulted and murdered.

Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

Oh, and lucky intruder, he just happened to write exactly like Patsy Ramsey.

Maybe I think too logically. I can't see how these crimes were committed by anyone but one or more of the three people in the home that night.


I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

SuperDave
10-19-2010, 05:07 PM
I mean you are making some pretty good points here

You bet. So, any ideas?


if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for.

That hardly erases what KK has brought up.


And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

I have a few ideas about that. But let's not change the subject just now.

KoldKase
10-19-2010, 05:21 PM
I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

Fair questions. But surely you have read the arguments on them many times.

Not that I'm above arguing the same thing for the millionth time, mind you....

But right now, I've been doing just that for hours and have to go, so let me point out something a poster at another JB forum, "Otr" at the topix.com site, brought up, as regards the DNA issue.

It's one of those "right in front of your nose" moments that answered the question of the DNA so clearly, I'm still stunned it hasn't been brought up before, at least not that I've seen--not that it's been possible to see everything written or discussed about this case in almost 14 years....

This starts with a picture taken at autopsy. Heck, I can't find the upload function, so give me a few minutes to see if I can post it here.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3931&stc=1&d=1256066479

Okay, if that works, I think you can notice that whoever is holding those little fingers is holding them at the location of the fingernails, as well. So to repeat myself (from an FFJ post):


...an autopsy picture of the medical examiner or someone who assisted with the autopsy holding JonBenet's hand...clearly touching her fingers/fingernails. If he/she had DNA on those gloves, contaminated as has been reported from using the same, unsterilized clippers on various bodies, transference could have occurred here. Or if she had DNA on her own fingers or under her fingernails from something she had touched, that could have gotten on these gloves while handling those, as well....

Now think about that: if the medical examiner had DNA on those gloves from contaminated instruments or fingers or fingernails or anything, he also pulled down the longjohns and Bloomies. He looked at the Bloomies close enough to report that the BLOODSTAINS IN THE PANTY did not correspond to bloodstains on the genital area of the body. How closely did he handle those Bloomies to determine those spots did not match up?

There's an excellent opportunity for contamination of the longjohns and Bloomies, IMO.

If the DNA in question is contamination, then it could have come from another body in the morgue being processed at the time. Did they take DNA samples from all bodies processed in the morgue at the time? I have no idea.

I guess it's back to the same arguments...heh. Do the few skin cells and partial strands of DNA it took 14 years to find on the clothes in this case overwhelm the other evidence?

I guess that's an opinion each of us decides on our own.

UKGuy
10-19-2010, 05:42 PM
I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

Roy23,

The JonBenet case is a sexually motivated homicide. Intruder or not. The foreign dna is a side show since it would be inadmissable in court.

The foreign dna could have originated from anywhere, e.g. from the gift wrapped FAO Schwartz size-12's that the killer unwrapped to redress JonBenet, or from cross-contamination at the autopsy lab, e.g. wearing the same latex gloves to touch consecutive items of JonBenet's clothing might transfer totally alien dna, or the foreign dna was picked by JonBenet herself lets say from some foreign object at the White's party or the door-handle of John Ramsey's car?

Now you find me the same foreign touch dna on the ligature then I'll take an intruder scenario more seriously. I note we have not been told precisely whose dna was recovered from the ligature!

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene designed to deflect attention away from a domestic homicide, there is sealed forensic evidence we know little about, but the revelation that there may have been one or more dolls in the wine-cellar alters its complexion, since an intruder needs no dolls to indulge whatever fetish was performed on JonBenet.

.

cynic
10-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Fair questions. But surely you have read the arguments on them many times.

Not that I'm above arguing the same thing for the millionth time, mind you....

But right now, I've been doing just that for hours and have to go, so let me point out something a poster at another JB forum, "Otr" at the topix.com site, brought up, as regards the DNA issue.

It's one of those "right in front of your nose" moments that answered the question of the DNA so clearly, I'm still stunned it hasn't been brought up before, at least not that I've seen--not that it's been possible to see everything written or discussed about this case in almost 14 years....

This starts with a picture taken at autopsy. Heck, I can't find the upload function, so give me a few minutes to see if I can post it here.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3931&stc=1&d=1256066479

Okay, if that works, I think you can notice that whoever is holding those little fingers is holding them at the location of the fingernails, as well. So to repeat myself (from an FFJ post):



If the DNA in question is contamination, then it could have come from another body in the morgue being processed at the time. Did they take DNA samples from all bodies processed in the morgue at the time? I have no idea.

I guess it's back to the same arguments...heh. Do the few skin cells and partial strands of DNA it took 14 years to find on the clothes in this case overwhelm the other evidence?

I guess that's an opinion each of us decides on our own.
That link didn't work KK, this is the pic that you are after, I believe:
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandheart.jpg

tragco
10-19-2010, 06:16 PM
Roy23,

The JonBenet case is a sexually motivated homicide. Intruder or not. The foreign dna is a side show since it would be inadmissable in court.

The foreign dna could have originated from anywhere, e.g. from the gift wrapped FAO Schwartz size-12's that the killer unwrapped to redress JonBenet, or from cross-contamination at the autopsy lab, e.g. wearing the same latex gloves to touch consecutive items of JonBenet's clothing might transfer totally alien dna, or the foreign dna was picked by JonBenet herself lets say from some foreign object at the White's party or the door-handle of John Ramsey's car?

Now you find me the same foreign touch dna on the ligature then I'll take an intruder scenario more seriously. I note we have not been told precisely whose dna was recovered from the ligature!

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene designed to deflect attention away from a domestic homicide, there is sealed forensic evidence we know little about, but the revelation that there may have been one or more dolls in the wine-cellar alters its complexion, since an intruder needs no dolls to indulge whatever fetish was performed on JonBenet.

.


Why do you say the foreign DNA would be inadmissible in court? I am of the opinion that it would definitely be admissible; in fact it would be almost impossible to get it thrown out.

KoldKase
10-19-2010, 06:22 PM
That link didn't work KK, this is the pic that you are after, I believe:
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandheart.jpg

I have no idea how these photo links or uploads work. At FFJ I have an upload option, but not here. Also, when I use the "insert image" button, I can see the photo with no problem when I post it. I see photos others post that people then say they can't see...?

Your post actually has two photos in it I see: mine and yours.

So I'm guessing there's something going on with the photos here I haven't figured out. Thanks for posting it, anyway, as I guess others can't see it in my post, as well. :waitasec:

UKGuy
10-19-2010, 06:23 PM
Why do you say the foreign DNA would be inadmissible in court? I am of the opinion that it would definitely be admissible; in fact it would be almost impossible to get it thrown out.

tragco,

The dna in her underwear is degraded and does not meet legal definition of evidence, and that from her longjohns may also have quality issues.

Like I said before why is there no matching touch-dna on the ligature, paintbrush-handle, duct-tape from her mouth, or even her barbie nightgown which I assume she was wearing when killed?

How does that work, did the intruder selectively remove his gloves, simply to remove JonBenet's lower garments?

.

LinasK
10-19-2010, 06:36 PM
I have no idea how these photo links or uploads work. At FFJ I have an upload option, but not here. Also, when I use the "insert image" button, I can see the photo with no problem when I post it. I see photos others post that people then say they can't see...?

Your post actually has two photos in it I see: mine and yours.

So I'm guessing there's something going on with the photos here I haven't figured out. Thanks for posting it, anyway, as I guess others can't see it in my post, as well. :waitasec:
Because you cannot upload to Websleuths. Any photos that are posted are actually links to photos hosted elsewhere...That's what the insert photo icon is for http://pages.sbcglobal.net/fragmir/images/insertimage.gif- you have to give it the URL where your photo is hosted.

DeeDee249
10-19-2010, 07:00 PM
I don't don't where you got your fused labia info (that isn't normal).

I was ROFL for quite a while. The autopsy report would have referred to her labia as having that condition and it did not.

There is a condition where the labia is fused and babies are diagnosed with it and an estrogen cream is often used. By 6 years old JBR would have had some treatment as it would have been advised long before 6 years of age.

Here is is link to a "moms" site discussing it.

fused labia? - MotheringDotCommunity Forums (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=949670)


I have one my sisters have one, my daughter has one, and none of us had any fusion of our labia at 6 years of age.

Yes, I wasn't speaking of the medical condition, but rather what was mentioned- that the labia at that age would need to be manually separated. And frankly, I see nothing about this case that would make me ROFL, especially at someone else's mis-statements. We are talking about the murder of a little girl, and while I speak only for myself, I don't think I see much to ROFL about. WWJD?

cynic
10-19-2010, 07:50 PM
I have no idea how these photo links or uploads work. At FFJ I have an upload option, but not here. Also, when I use the "insert image" button, I can see the photo with no problem when I post it. I see photos others post that people then say they can't see...?

Your post actually has two photos in it I see: mine and yours.

So I'm guessing there's something going on with the photos here I haven't figured out. Thanks for posting it, anyway, as I guess others can't see it in my post, as well. :waitasec:
The link that you provided is to a "registered members only" area of FFJ and, as such, you are able to see it. The link I provided is to a publicly available area of ACR, which everyone is able to see.

Bobbarita
10-19-2010, 08:56 PM
[QUOTE=SuperDave;5703081]I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. We're not necessarily talking about a medical condition here. As Dr. John McCann, one of the panel members that ST mentions, said in his report to the DA's office, the labia of a child that age tend to remain closed unless manually separated.[/QUOTE

Yes that is true, closed but not FUSED. JBR had some issues that required Patsy to try and be extra diligent in her cleaning. She would have to separate her labia and clean around her urethra and the surrounding skin as the tendency to stay closed labia would trap bacteria and the higher than normal acid content of her urine would be irritating to her labia. Both sets. Did any of you ladies even know you have Labia major and Labia minor. The minor being closer to the opening of your vagina (where a hymen is located).

This reminds me of a fight I had with my mom over my "monthly". I wanted to use tampons and she said I would injure myself and insisted I consult our family doctor. He told her if I started to hurt myself I would stop as it would feel painful. I was 14. It takes more force than tampon insertion to break it and JBR's was still intact but erosion was at the 7 o'clock position.
If I were having to clean someone in that area I would most likely use a washcloth. The direction I would wipe would be towards the bottom and along the side of her labia. I see it is possible for Patsy to have caused further damage to an already irritated JBR's labia. JBR would have cried or complained IMO alerting her it was too rough. The autopsy report alludes to this healing and it is being used here as proof she was sexually assaulted prior to her death.

The erronous post about fused labia caused a firestorm of medical evidence we should not ignore, it also shows how severely labia can be damaged by infections and the very things listed as causes. Sexual abuse is not the only cause it is one and should not be ignored but the evidence supporting it is very small and has yet passed a "litmus test".

One of the things I noticed as I reread the post about the panel of doctors is 2 photos were shown. One was of a girl with a normal vaginal area. Same age as JBR. The other is a post mortem photo of JBR's area.

The photos cannot be compared as one is alive and the other dead. Post mortem lividity and a living person...... and the color is going to be off big time.

Where these experts informed of JBR's past medical history? Her bed wetting, bladder, vaginitis, her long standing (at least 6 months) history of these issues?

If not then the person showing the photos isn't very fair minded or intellectually gifted. In order to make a scientific comparison valid the small details must be paid attention to. A presentation to a group of doctors, they are going to assume the presenter did their homework and presented a fair case comparison. A living normal 6 year old isn't the criteria needed for comparison. JBR had some big issues that affect the evidence as presented.

You may not want to ever have to compare it to another dead child but at least compare it to a child with the same long term bed wetting, etc. issues where it is KNOWN no abuse has occurred and this is what irritation and even erosion looks like. Then account for the subjects being live and deceased. Then examine only the areas where it is suspected to be previous abuse.
Compare those two areas of the girls as it would be a fair comparison.

JBR was sexually assaulted and the injuries she received were bad enough to have caused her pain and not just a little of it. Looking for comparisons generally speaking only conclude what we already know. She WAS assaulted sexually before she died. The sexual assault left behind injuries that were easily detected at autopsy.





The swelling of the body also makes all parts of the body bigger. How many hours after death were the photos taken. Since JBR was laying on her back a great deal of blood pooled on her backside and could affect the coloring of her vaginal area too. It depends upon the time of death and when the ME did the photos. They may have been done as part of and after the autopsy itself.

After reading and reeading the post about the doctors viewing the photos I have more questions ( and I thought I had found answers).

No comment.

CathyR
10-19-2010, 09:04 PM
Yes, I wasn't speaking of the medical condition, but rather what was mentioned- that the labia at that age would need to be manually separated. And frankly, I see nothing about this case that would make me ROFL, especially at someone else's mis-statements. We are talking about the murder of a little girl, and while I speak only for myself, I don't think I see much to ROFL about. WWJD?

Don't take it personally. The thought that "fusion" was a normal condition of all women is what amused me. Remember the post telling us how "ignorant" we women are about our own bodies.


. If any woman has repeated infections as JBR suffered she is going to experience redness and irritation of her labia. In order to clean the area she is going to have to separate her labia and remove any mucous and urine related residues. A younger person would be much much more sensitive, as they are still underdeveloped, and the area much smaller with better closure than an adult female. The child's labia would trap more bacteria and moisture as a result.

I make mistakes about this case all the time so calm down being wrong or being in error is why we discuss things. So we can check it out and bounce our ideas around, and the info we have collected can be verified or not.

DeeDee249
10-19-2010, 09:18 PM
JB's body was not photographed naked at the house. When that occurred, it would have been at the autopsy, and photos would be taken of the dissection as well. Swelling and bloating are different and a coroner can tell the difference.

CathyR
10-20-2010, 09:11 AM
JB's body was not photographed naked at the house. When that occurred, it would have been at the autopsy, and photos would be taken of the dissection as well. Swelling and bloating are different and a coroner can tell the difference.

But can a doctor at a conference where they are not informed of the complete medical history of the two subjects shown tell the difference? They were only informed it was JBR. and another "normal" child. On this basis alone they were polled about sexual abuse and voted YES she appeared to have evidence of sexual abuse. I bet not many of those polled would vote the same if made aware of the complete history of JBR and her long term infections, etc.

The coroner does not state the injuries in question ( not the ones she sustained the night she was murdered) are clear and obviously signs of prior abuse. Only that they show signs of healing which means they were sustained days before she died.

Reading the posts about labia fusion made me aware just how severely a UTI can damage the sensitive skin. I can not imagine her having the issues she had and not have some irritation caused by it. That irritation is present and showing healing at her autopsy.

JR's lawyer, if he is ever charged and the subject brought up, would have a field day with this info. Her pedi whom we all agree did not exam her well would be asked to testify and his lack of info in her medical records would back up his claim no prior abuse (caused by the R's) was evident to her doctor. Only the signs and symptoms of UTI's, vaginitis, etc. That would include her labia irritation.

The fact that at her age she was bed wetting is a sign of abuse, but it is also a sign she was under tremendous psychological pressure. We are assuming that pressure was from sexual abuse but I believe it was more due to her pageant activities and the way Patsy worked her hard to prep her for competition. I don't like it and don't agree with parents that push their kids into these competitions. I have seen Toddlers and Tiaras and would like to have a word or two with some of the contestants mothers.

If it can be proven that sexual abuse had occurred to JBR prior to her attack and murder the evidence will have to be stronger and not so easily refutable.
If it occurred at the hands of Burke he may have told a friend or alluded to it at some point growing up. If JR did it he has a problem and wouldn't stop just find another victim. He would also have victims besides JBR as pedophilia doesn't happen overnight and no "cure" exists. His age and no previous history make it very difficult to prove he has pedophilia tendencies.

If the evidence I am looking for existed BPD would have made an arrest years ago. Sadly this case is more circumstantial than anything else and I would need more than that if I was a juror on a case like this.

I hope the BPD is able to make an arrest and have some really good proof that isn't circumstantial in nature. I am hoping what we don't know is actually "bombshell" information that will tie up the loose ends.

Linda7NJ
10-20-2010, 09:40 AM
But can a doctor at a conference where they are not informed of the complete medical history of the two subjects shown tell the difference? They were only informed it was JBR. and another "normal" child. On this basis alone they were polled about sexual abuse and voted YES she appeared to have evidence of sexual abuse. I bet not many of those polled would vote the same if made aware of the complete history of JBR and her long term infections, etc.

The coroner does not state the injuries in question ( not the ones she sustained the night she was murdered) are clear and obviously signs of prior abuse. Only that they show signs of healing which means they were sustained days before she died.

Reading the posts about labia fusion made me aware just how severely a UTI can damage the sensitive skin. I can not imagine her having the issues she had and not have some irritation caused by it. That irritation is present and showing healing at her autopsy.

JR s lawyer, if he is ever charged and the subject brought up, would have a field day with this info. Her pedi whom we all agree did not exam her well would be asked to testify and his lack of info in her medical records would back up his claim no prior abuse (caused by the R's) was evident to her doctor. Only the signs and symptoms of UTIs, vaginitis, etc. That would include her labia irritation.

The fact that at her age she was bed wetting is a sign of abuse, but it is also a sign she was under tremendous psychological pressure. We are assuming that pressure was from sexual abuse but I believe it was more due to her pageant activities and the way Patsy worked her hard to prep her for competition. I don't like it and don't agree with parents that push their kids into these competitions. I have seen Toddlers and Tiaras and would like to have a word or two with some of the contestants mothers.

If it can be proven that sexual abuse had occurred to JBR prior to her attack and murder the evidence will have to be stronger and not so easily refutable.
If it occurred at the hands of Burke he may have told a friend or alluded to it at some point growing up. If JR did it he has a problem and wouldn't stop just find another victim. He would also have victims besides JBR as pedophilia doesn't happen overnight and no "cure" exists. His age and no previous history make it very difficult to prove he has pedophilia tendencies.

If the evidence I am looking for existed BPD would have made an arrest years ago. Sadly this case is more circumstantial than anything else and I would need more than that if I was a juror on a case like this.

I hope the BPD is able to make an arrest and have some really good proof that isn't circumstantial in nature. I am hoping what we don't know is actually "bombshell" information that will tie up the loose ends.

Burke would have discussed this with friends? Highly unlikely, close to impossible.

John can be a situational child sexual predator, oftentimes they don't go outside of the family. His "tendencies" could have died with JonBenet. Not every child molester is the same, you can't simply paint them all with the same brush. The only thing they all share, is a very twisted mind. imo

UKGuy
10-20-2010, 02:18 PM
But can a doctor at a conference where they are not informed of the complete medical history of the two subjects shown tell the difference? They were only informed it was JBR. and another "normal" child. On this basis alone they were polled about sexual abuse and voted YES she appeared to have evidence of sexual abuse. I bet not many of those polled would vote the same if made aware of the complete history of JBR and her long term infections, etc.

The coroner does not state the injuries in question ( not the ones she sustained the night she was murdered) are clear and obviously signs of prior abuse. Only that they show signs of healing which means they were sustained days before she died.

Reading the posts about labia fusion made me aware just how severely a UTI can damage the sensitive skin. I can not imagine her having the issues she had and not have some irritation caused by it. That irritation is present and showing healing at her autopsy.

JR's lawyer, if he is ever charged and the subject brought up, would have a field day with this info. Her pedi whom we all agree did not exam her well would be asked to testify and his lack of info in her medical records would back up his claim no prior abuse (caused by the R's) was evident to her doctor. Only the signs and symptoms of UTI's, vaginitis, etc. That would include her labia irritation.

The fact that at her age she was bed wetting is a sign of abuse, but it is also a sign she was under tremendous psychological pressure. We are assuming that pressure was from sexual abuse but I believe it was more due to her pageant activities and the way Patsy worked her hard to prep her for competition. I don't like it and don't agree with parents that push their kids into these competitions. I have seen Toddlers and Tiaras and would like to have a word or two with some of the contestants mothers.

If it can be proven that sexual abuse had occurred to JBR prior to her attack and murder the evidence will have to be stronger and not so easily refutable.
If it occurred at the hands of Burke he may have told a friend or alluded to it at some point growing up. If JR did it he has a problem and wouldn't stop just find another victim. He would also have victims besides JBR as pedophilia doesn't happen overnight and no "cure" exists. His age and no previous history make it very difficult to prove he has pedophilia tendencies.

If the evidence I am looking for existed BPD would have made an arrest years ago. Sadly this case is more circumstantial than anything else and I would need more than that if I was a juror on a case like this.

I hope the BPD is able to make an arrest and have some really good proof that isn't circumstantial in nature. I am hoping what we don't know is actually "bombshell" information that will tie up the loose ends.

CathyR,

Unless JonBenet's photographs compared against that of another healthy 6-year old girl were simply the result of an acute sexual assault then this might explain the difference.

But it is not simply the attending investigators who viewed JonBenet's photographs it was also numerous other experts, who also cited prior molestation.

A comparison with a healthy girl is not circumstantial. Attribution of JonBenet's bedwetting to pageant stress may be correct but that does not rule out prior molestation, since her stress may have been multi-causal e.g. more than one person may have been molesting her.

There was no need for any intruder to hide that he had sexually assaulted JonBenet, never mind killed her. But he did and he hid her body in a wine-cellar, dressed her in size-12's, wiped her down, leaving some black cotton fibers on her skin, Then placed the longjohns on her and wrapped her in a white blanket, that appears to have no blood on it whilst the barbie nightgown does.

So why does the intruder bother hiding all this, since he knows JonBenet will eventually be discovered dead and subsequently an autopsy will reveal an acute sexual assault e.g. not a staged genital injury?

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

When Coroner Meyer cites digital penetration and sexual contact he may do so on the basis of similar evidence in other cases where sexual assault was predominant. That is Coroner Meyer might recognize chronic sexual abuse when he sees it! He was there, we were not, we have not seen the photographs, those that have cite prior molestation. I doubt they are all victims of peer pressure.

So rather than exhibiting circumstantial traits. The most you can claim about JonBenet's internal injuries is that they are coincidental. e.g. independent of her acute injuries and the result of pageant stress?

.

KoldKase
10-20-2010, 02:43 PM
The link that you provided is to a "registered members only" area of FFJ and, as such, you are able to see it. The link I provided is to a publicly available area of ACR, which everyone is able to see.

Wow. Thanks for letting me know this, because I was under the impression that the case library section of FFJ is available to the public. I think the admin think so as well. We've added some photos and transcripts in the last year, at least I have, under that assumption, because they're now disappearing from other online sources. So I'll check it out.

Thanks again.

CathyR
10-20-2010, 04:59 PM
CathyR,

Unless JonBenet's photographs compared against that of another healthy 6-year old girl were simply the result of an acute sexual assault then this might explain the difference.

My BOLD

There should be some difference in a normal child who does not have a history of UTI's and one who does. It would be redness and even bleeding from the irritation that would be present on the child who was ill and not on the one who was healthy and normal.



But it is not simply the attending investigators who viewed JonBenet's photographs it was also numerous other experts, who also cited prior molestation.


It is those experts I'm speaking about and the manner the data was given to them to compare. Were they aware of JBR's long history with vaginitis and UTI's. Were they aware of the assault just prior to death?



A comparison with a healthy girl is not circumstantial. Attribution of JonBenet's bedwetting to pageant stress may be correct but that does not rule out prior molestation, since her stress may have been multi-causal e.g. more than one person may have been molesting her.



The psychological torture is what would cause the bed wetting. No where in the coroners report is it stated that JBR was molested prior to the murder.
He made a comment to someone who later quoted it. This might have been prior to him reading her medical history and then saying to himself, that explains the erosion and previous healing. He had not completed his report at the time he made the statement.
Just like the so called panel of experts he was UNAWARE of her medical history. He does not put it in his report just like the person presenting the data to the group of doctors does not make them aware of the differences between the two children in regards to medical history. They do reveal the one which is JBR and in a "blind study" this is not allowed. In order to get correct and unbiased opinions you must compare an apple to an apple. You cannot provide a green apple and a red one. They are two different things.


Comparison of a healthy child to one with a long history such as JonBenet's is not apples to apples in any sense. If this panel of experts want to testify I'm sure the Boulder DA would gladly accommodate them. I'm sure an expert in urological pediatric issues will supply JR all the ammo(other photos of female children suffering what JBR had) to counter this claim and give a fair comparison.

If this panel of experts were willing to proceed I'm sure the DA would have done so already. It isn't like they are not aware of this information. Whoever did convene the panel would have and should have informed the office as to the results and consent of the experts to back it up.

There was no need for any intruder to hide that he had sexually assaulted JonBenet, never mind killed her. But he did and he hid her body in a wine-cellar, dressed her in size-12's, wiped her down, leaving some black cotton fibers on her skin, Then placed the longjohns on her and wrapped her in a white blanket, that appears to have no blood on it whilst the barbie nightgown does.

So why does the intruder bother hiding all this, since he knows JonBenet will eventually be discovered dead and subsequently an autopsy will reveal an acute sexual assault e.g. not a staged genital injury?

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm




Maybe dressing her in different clothes turned him on. She got to pretend she was Barbie and he got what he wanted without having to force her to do it. Change clothes that is. He might even have got her to allow him to put the duct tape on her mouth. It could be part of the lure he used to get her down to the basement.
Wiping her down would be an effort to clean up the crime scene. In any whodunit theory here no one wants to be caught by DNA so why do you think the intruder would be any less willing to be caught.



When Coroner Meyer cites digital penetration and sexual contact he may do so on the basis of similar evidence in other cases where sexual assault was predominant. That is Coroner Meyer might recognize chronic sexual abuse when he sees it! He was there, we were not, we have not seen the photographs, those that have cite prior molestation. I doubt they are all victims of peer pressure.



WHERE- WHERE does he officially cite this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hearsay evidence is not allowed in court. It does JBR no good to pursue it from that angle.



So rather than exhibiting circumstantial traits. The most you can claim about JonBenet's internal injuries is that they are coincidental. e.g. independent of her acute injuries and the result of pageant stress?

.

1. Her own Pageant Stress and the stress of being a kid who is pushed to perform at said pageants, school, church, society ( she attended parties and other social events frequently) caused her to have bed wetting issues.


2. Her bed wetting led to a long history ofUrinary Tract Infections, Bladder Infections, Vaginitis.

3. Because of the nature of her medical history it would not be far fetched for a doctor or even ME to come to the conclusion that she had been abused and the only possible way she could have been would be digitally as her hymen is still intact. No tears or other evidence exists.
Nothing larger than a finger could have been used. I haven't ever done an autopsy but I can see where he can come to that conclusion based on the fact that her hymen was intact and no tearing or scarring of past trauma was evident. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that part out. He could be new on the job and never seen another abuse case and he come come to the conclusion.
HE DID NOT COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. He read her files most likely in his office before he filled out his official report. That is the reason he did read them to make sure no underlying causes are in her medical records. To guarantee also that he had the same patient. If the body had an appendectomy scar but nothing is in her records he may have made inquiries to her Atlanta doctor and even ask her present one if he had ever seen the scar. That is the job of the ME to find a cause of death, record any "abnormalities" upon examination that may or may not have contributed to the death. Scars, tattoos, any previous injuries like broken bones etc all are noted at autopsy.
The ME found an UNDERLYING CAUSE for the labia being red and the hymen having erosion. He did not put it in his report because he didn't believe it was a result of prior abuse.

tragco
10-20-2010, 05:18 PM
Wow. Thanks for letting me know this, because I was under the impression that the case library section of FFJ is available to the public. I think the admin think so as well. We've added some photos and transcripts in the last year, at least I have, under that assumption, because they're now disappearing from other online sources. So I'll check it out.

Thanks again.

No, it isn't and I really wish it was. FFJ was established so long ago and its a way for a really tight-knit group who have been around forever and know everything to discuss the case.

I didn't feel right joining. I felt like I would be barging in without an invite. I just want to view that case library.. maybe someone could make it public, maybe there are good reasons it's private.

minazoe
10-20-2010, 05:19 PM
I would like to know if bed wetting, uti's and vaginal infections are a common occurance for 6 year old pageant queens. Also if a child has continual on going issues with bubble bath, wouldn't it be advisable to discontinue bubble baths?

Don't buy it.

was her anus unsullied? anyone know?

DeeDee249
10-20-2010, 07:07 PM
JB's hymen was NOT intact. It was not torn, but rubbed away, and as the report says "represented by a rim of mucosal tissue". The vaginal rugae were visible, and that is something that is normally covered by an intact hymen.
A panel of doctors, including medical examiners, can tell swelling from bloating even from photos and from a written report as well. Several doctors concurred that JB suffered sexual abuse. Just as they were able to know what the coroner meant when he stated there was mild flattening and narrowing if the sulci and gyri in the brain. "Flattening and narrowning" = swelling, and the reason it was "mild" is that she did not live long enough after that head blow for more severe swelling to occur. Dead bodies don't "swell" They bloat. She was found too soon for bloating to have occurred.

CathyR
10-21-2010, 07:33 AM
I would like to know if bed wetting, uti's and vaginal infections are a common occurance for 6 year old pageant queens. Also if a child has continual on going issues with bubble bath, wouldn't it be advisable to discontinue bubble baths?

Don't buy it.

was her anus unsullied? anyone know?

Anus was unremarkable-means he found nothing to remark about.

Here is link to stats on childhood UTI's.

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/utichildren/#abnormal

joeskidbeck
10-21-2010, 07:50 AM
I would like to know if bed wetting, uti's and vaginal infections are a common occurance for 6 year old pageant queens. Also if a child has continual on going issues with bubble bath, wouldn't it be advisable to discontinue bubble baths?

Don't buy it.

was her anus unsullied? anyone know?

Hi minazoe. I don't know about vaginal infections, but uti's are very common in little girls (or grown women) who take frequent bubble baths. Also, the first thing the doctor will tell you is to STOP taking the bubble baths. I had the problem with my little girl and when her pediatrician said stop, I stopped. No more uti's. My question is, did PR not stop JB's bubble baths? I would think that if she had, it would be likely the uti's would have stopped unless they were being caused by something else. My opinion is the reason she kept taking JB to the doctor was because she knew it wasn't the baths. She was on a mission.

CathyR
10-21-2010, 07:53 AM
JB's hymen was NOT intact. It was not torn, but rubbed away, and as the report says "represented by a rim of mucosal tissue". The vaginal rugae were visible, and that is something that is normally covered by an intact hymen.
A panel of doctors, including medical examiners, can tell swelling from bloating even from photos and from a written report as well. Several doctors concurred that JB suffered sexual abuse. Just as they were able to know what the coroner meant when he stated there was mild flattening and narrowing if the sulci and gyri in the brain. "Flattening and narrowning" = swelling, and the reason it was "mild" is that she did not live long enough after that head blow for more severe swelling to occur. Dead bodies don't "swell" They bloat. She was found too soon for bloating to have occurred.



I will provide links as no where in her autopsy report does it say that. In fact it is measured to be 1x1 cm and it was damaged due to the assault but not torn.

http://zyberzoom.com/JBRAutopsy.html


My Bold.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. tThe hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to he hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

CathyR
10-21-2010, 08:31 AM
Here is a link that explains what a hymen is and it provides photos of abnormalities.
none of the terms used to describe these abnormalities or the absence of a hymen is used in the autopsy report. The actual report and not the "let me explain this for you version" that is available online. I can see where you are getting your misinformation, it is not your fault, whoever decided we were too dumb to understand the official report is to blame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

CathyR
10-21-2010, 08:40 AM
I posted a link about UTI's and one of the things it said was if a child suffers from repeated UTI's the Dr. should exam the child for certain abnormalities. Do we know if her Dr. did this? Since her medical records are private we may not know but if he didn't he should have.

mcsmom
10-21-2010, 08:47 AM
tThe hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to he hymen.


From the angle of this injury, starting at 7 o'clock with abrasion resulting at the distal right lateral vaginal wall, might represent an injury caused by someone who is left handed.

I'm a newbie to this case, my apologies if this has been previously discussed.

joeskidbeck
10-21-2010, 09:11 AM
Thanks, mcsmom. It may have been discussed but I have never read it. At least one family member was ambidextrious, I don't know whether the others were right handed, left handed, or also ambidextrious.

joeskidbeck
10-21-2010, 09:11 AM
Sorry, mcsmom. Welcome to Websleuths and the JonBenet forum!

CathyR
10-21-2010, 09:56 AM
I read it here on the forum that the birefringent material was paint from the paintbrush. When I go and reread the posts I am in error it could be paint but it also lists a few others things it could have been. The exact answer as to what it is has not been revealed by the BPD.

SuperDave
10-21-2010, 05:11 PM
Here is a link that explains what a hymen is and it provides photos of abnormalities.
none of the terms used to describe these abnormalities or the absence of a hymen is used in the autopsy report. The actual report and not the "let me explain this for you version" that is available online. I can see where you are getting your misinformation, it is not your fault, whoever decided we were too dumb to understand the official report is to blame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

Ease off your throttle, CathyR. Maybe I can help you out. This is from chapter four:

During JonBenet's autopsy, Dr. John Meyer examined her vagina. Here's what he found, from the actual report:

"A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1x1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise from between the 2:00 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and the distal right vaginal wall."

Okay, for you regular people, that means that JonBenet's hymen was scratched. It has been established that her vagina was violated the night of her death. But the "1x1 cm hymeneal orifice" is the bell-ringer here. That means that the opening in JonBenet's six-year-old hymen was one centimeter by one centimeter. This is twice the size of a so-called normal hymeneal opening for a girl this age. In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

These findings imply an "expected" hymeneal opening size of 6 mm for someone JonBenet's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused. In fact, hymeneal sizes alone are not enough to say with any degree of certainty that JonBenet was the victim of long-term sexual abuse, but the autopsy report shows more than just hymeneal damage. Again, from the report:

"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Inflammation refers to an irritation that may involve pain, redness, heat (thus the term) and swelling. Here, take your fingernails and scratch your arm. Did you see how the skin became red? That's because the blood has come to the surface to heal the injury. This is known as acute inflammation. That means that JonBenet's vagina was injured or irritated and her body's systems went to work to try and heal her. It's the chronic part that seals the deal. The Bantam Medical Dictionary defines "chronic" as a disease or injury of long duration, and states that when healing does not occur, inflammation becomes chronic. In plain English, that means that JonBenet had old inflammation that had not been allowed to heal. This did not happen all at once. Even more damning is the term "erosion." No point in trying to obfuscate the issue: that means that layers of flesh in JonBenet's vagina had been worn away over time; stripped away by continuous invasion. Old and new vaginal injuries. It couldn't be any plainer than that.

In his book, Det. Thomas states:

"In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' ' There was chronic abuse'. . . 'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before."

Thomas does not name these experts. But other sources, including Schiller's book, do name them. Their names read as follows:

-Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital);
-Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of Colorado Health Sciences Center;
-Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois;
-Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida;
-and Dr. John McCann, Clinical Professor of Medicine, Department. of Pediatrics at University of California at Davis.

"According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.
"There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia." He also talked about the injury from that night, saying, "the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area. McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area." To qualify his report, Dr. McCann explained "the term 'chronic abuse' meant only that it was 'repeated', but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of 'prior abuse'. The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior." He explained that the most common perpetrators of sexual abuse are those with whom the child has close contact with, usually a family member. Increased bedwetting is also a possible sign, he said.

McCann, Jones, Monteleone, Wright, Krugman, and a pathologist named Werner Spitz did not just examine the report and autopsy photographs of JonBenet's vagina. The most important evidence came from tissue slides. These professionals examined samples of tissue cut from JonBenet's vagina under a microscope, to be extra sure. As Det. Thomas states, "there were no dissenting opinions."

Now, let's get into some of your specific questions:


It is those experts I'm speaking about and the manner the data was given to them to compare. Were they aware of JBR's long history with vaginitis and UTI's. Were they aware of the assault just prior to death?

Yes, they were.


If this panel of experts were willing to proceed I'm sure the DA would have done so already.

You'll have to excuse me if I balk a bit at that assertion.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can argue each point separately. But when you put it all together: the injuries, the behavioral issues, JB being "too friendly," and flirting, etc., it's not a big leap.

minazoe
10-21-2010, 06:31 PM
quacks like a duck...

CathyR
10-21-2010, 06:49 PM
Burke would have discussed this with friends? Highly unlikely, close to impossible.

John can be a situational child sexual predator, oftentimes they don't go outside of the family. His "tendencies" could have died with JonBenet. Not every child molester is the same, you can't simply paint them all with the same brush. The only thing they all share, is a very twisted mind. imo

If he was the guilty party and does not have a psychopathic personality he might have alluded to it, not come right out with a confession but more like......

someone may have bullied him or said something he didn't like and he stated I wouldn't do that my sister tried that sh** and look at where she ended up.

Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

Linda7NJ
10-21-2010, 06:51 PM
If he was the guilty party and does not have a psychopathic personality he might have alluded to it, not come right out with a confession but more like......

someone may have bullied him or said something he didn't like and he stated I wouldn't do that my sister tried that sh** and look at where she ended up.

Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

No, I didn't say that. I said it was POSSIBLE. It happens. Fathers sometimes pick ONE daughter to molest and leave the rest alone.

SuperDave
10-21-2010, 07:02 PM
Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

This would fit the general idea of a situational molester. Just saying.

DeeDee249
10-21-2010, 07:25 PM
No, I didn't say that. I said it was POSSIBLE. It happens. Fathers sometimes pick ONE daughter to molest and leave the rest alone.

There was a big difference between JR's older daughters and JB. JB was sexualized in her dress, mannerisms and behavior. She was taught to be flirty, then Patsy goes and complains about the very thing she was coaching her daughter to do. What Patsy obviously didn't understand was that a 6-year old can't turn it on when she's on stage and turn it off in her everyday life. JB acted the way she was taught to act. She was dressed like a Vegas showgirl, and the look in her eye and her mannerisms on stage were anything BUT those of a normal little girl.
That's why she always WON.

DeeDee249
10-21-2010, 07:28 PM
I will provide links as no where in her autopsy report does it say that. In fact it is measured to be 1x1 cm and it was damaged due to the assault but not torn.

http://zyberzoom.com/JBRAutopsy.html


My Bold.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. tThe hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to he hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

That is EXACTLY the description that PROVES the hymen was NOT intact. An abraded or eroded hymen is NOT intact. It doesn't have to be torn. JB's hymen was not a normal finding in a child.

claudicici
10-21-2010, 07:46 PM
what says it all to me is 1x1cm hymeneal orifice,how can that happen that one time???
that's the size of a grown woman starting to dilate about to give birth!
what's the regular size for a 6 year old? A few millimeters? I can't imagine it to be more...

madeleine
10-22-2010, 03:04 AM
Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

Dunno.What I am sure of though is that Beths death changed him.A lot.And his wife's disease probably changed him as well.This doesn't make him a molester,of course not.It's the big picture that gives me creeps.The way they react to the "news"(prior abuse),they say no way instead of oh my God,let's see who had access to our child.

claudicici
10-22-2010, 05:15 AM
....plus even if her Dad really did abuse her ,do you really think she would come out and state that?
I still think Beths' pictures in the bathroom are VERY creepy....

21merc7
10-22-2010, 05:51 AM
what says it all to me is 1x1cm hymeneal orifice,how can that happen that one time???
that's the size of a grown woman starting to dilate about to give birth!
what's the regular size for a 6 year old? A few millimeters? I can't imagine it to be more...

From SuperDave's post, number 223:

Okay, for you regular people, that means that JonBenet's hymen was scratched. It has been established that her vagina was violated the night of her death. But the "1x1 cm hymeneal orifice" is the bell-ringer here. That means that the opening in JonBenet's six-year-old hymen was one centimeter by one centimeter. This is twice the size of a so-called normal hymeneal opening for a girl this age. In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

These findings imply an "expected" hymeneal opening size of 6 mm for someone JonBenet's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused. In fact, hymeneal sizes alone are not enough to say with any degree of certainty that JonBenet was the victim of long-term sexual abuse, but the autopsy report shows more than just hymeneal damage.

madeleine
10-22-2010, 07:22 AM
....plus even if her Dad really did abuse her ,do you really think she would come out and state that?
I still think Beths' pictures in the bathroom are VERY creepy....

I thought that too at first but then I changed my mind and realized he did love her VERY VERY much,no doubt about that whatsoever (and NO I don't mean anything sexual about it,no way).And this is what makes me think he pretty much died as well with her.People who are hurt very badly can do crazy things.They don't care anymore,not about themselves,about loved ones,they change emotionally.
And there's another thing....TOO much love.Isn't harrassment and stalking also a form (sick one) of LOVE?That line is so thin sometimes.Haven't you heard so many dads say I did it outta too much love,I couldn't control my feelings anymore.
Dunno.....he lost one daughter,was close to losing his wife...maybe he IS that religious and thought.....in heaven we'll be together,they are all gonna be MINE again and nothing can tear us appart.Remember what he said,she's safe now in a better place?(waiting for him and PR?)

madeleine
10-22-2010, 08:13 AM
http://www.pathguy.com/abuse.htm

Proposed Classification of Anogenital Findings in Children (1994)


Normal: Class I


Nonspecific findings (Class II).

Suspicious for abuse (Class 3)

Suggestive of Abuse / Penetration (Class 4)

Clear Evidence of Penetrating Injury (Class 5)


Jonbenet is here under nr .5

Note 3: The anterior hymenal rim may be very slim or absent as a normal variant; this was the case with JonBenet Ramsey and the pathologist recognized it as normal.

madeleine
10-22-2010, 08:15 AM
Also.....

Class 4. Definite evidence of abuse or sexual contact


Finding of sperm or seminal fluid in or on a child's body

Witnesed episdoe of sexual molestation. This also appplies to cases where pronographic photographs or videotapes are acquired as evidence

Nonaccidental, blunt penetrating injury to the vaginal or anal orifice

Positive, confirmed cultures for Neisseria gonorrhoeae in a prepubertal child, or serologic confirmation of acquired syphilis

madeleine
10-22-2010, 08:38 AM
Madeleine is taking anatomy lessons.

from the autopsy report:

A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.

--------------------

In female human anatomy, the frenulum labiorum pudendi (aka the fourchette or the posterior commissure of the labia minora) is a frenulum where the labia minora meet posteriorly.

(now I understand why they suspected DIGITAl penetration,it's more likely to hurt that spot that way,the finger is flexible and can reach it,harder with an object or with the...you know,look where it's located it will make sense)

The fourchette may be torn during delivery due to the sudden stretching of the vulval orifice, or during intercourse.The fourchette may also be torn in acts of violence wherein forced entry occurs such as rape. When the fourchette gets torn the bleeding which ensues sometimes requires surgical suturing for containment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenulum_labiorum_pudendi

But just read the report.It wasn't just playing,she was hurt pretty bad even if she wasn't raped.



On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified

DeeDee249
10-22-2010, 05:29 PM
I don't recall where the coroner said that the absence of most of JB's hymen was normal. Got a link for that?

CathyR
10-22-2010, 08:27 PM
From SuperDave's post, number 223:

Okay, for you regular people, that means that JonBenet's hymen was scratched. It has been established that her vagina was violated the night of her death. But the "1x1 cm hymeneal orifice" is the bell-ringer here. That means that the opening in JonBenet's six-year-old hymen was one centimeter by one centimeter. This is twice the size of a so-called normal hymeneal opening for a girl this age. In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

These findings imply an "expected" hymeneal opening size of 6 mm for someone JonBenet's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused. In fact, hymeneal sizes alone are not enough to say with any degree of certainty that JonBenet was the victim of long-term sexual abuse, but the autopsy report shows more than just hymeneal damage.

All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?
But at a different location than the healing area?
The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing. What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred. Or at least the time she was injured from abuse and the time she was killed.


It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

What is the time frame between the two incidents.



The news reaction by the R's of prior abuse is normal. Denial comes first, no one wants their child to have been abused. Just like in coping with death.


You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

The other parent vouches for, sincerely, the mate as they believe them to have been in bed with them all night.

It also explains why the staging would be so over the top as a child and an adult came up with the staging.

I have been considering the viewpoint that parents would cover up for a child and it seems that one of them would be more highly motivated to do this than the other. I just don't see both parents not being mad at Burke enough to say no let him take his punishment or I'm not taking a chance of getting caught and looking guilty myself. I don't see them both willing to give up everything including going to jail for Burke. If he did it then both parents covered for him both parents could go to jail for the attempt of hiding it. They have no idea what trace evidence the police are going to be able to find that they can't wipe away, etc. What if DNA belonging to Burke did come back and in a place he can't explain away innocently. Fibers from his clothes, etc. One of them is going to be more doubtful that the plan will work than the other.

DeeDee249
10-22-2010, 10:39 PM
Neither parent would have gone to jail in the People's Republic of Boulder, where nothing anybody does is ever their fault.
BR was under 10- by Colorado law, he couldn't even be NAMED in association with a crime, even the death of his sister. Had LE been aware that the parents were covering for their son, because of Colorado law, a person can't be arrested there for being an accessory to murder if no one was arrested for the murder.
Tampering with evidence would probably be the worst they'd have faced, but a judge may very well have barred them from being arrested for that if the killer they covered for was under 10.
Whether the Rs were aware of all of this is debatable, but I'd file this under "information gotten in a late-night call to a lawyer friend".

UKGuy
10-23-2010, 05:21 AM
All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?
But at a different location than the healing area?
The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing. What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred. Or at least the time she was injured from abuse and the time she was killed.


It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

What is the time frame between the two incidents.



The news reaction by the R's of prior abuse is normal. Denial comes first, no one wants their child to have been abused. Just like in coping with death.


You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

The other parent vouches for, sincerely, the mate as they believe them to have been in bed with them all night.

It also explains why the staging would be so over the top as a child and an adult came up with the staging.

I have been considering the viewpoint that parents would cover up for a child and it seems that one of them would be more highly motivated to do this than the other. I just don't see both parents not being mad at Burke enough to say no let him take his punishment or I'm not taking a chance of getting caught and looking guilty myself. I don't see them both willing to give up everything including going to jail for Burke. If he did it then both parents covered for him both parents could go to jail for the attempt of hiding it. They have no idea what trace evidence the police are going to be able to find that they can't wipe away, etc. What if DNA belonging to Burke did come back and in a place he can't explain away innocently. Fibers from his clothes, etc. One of them is going to be more doubtful that the plan will work than the other.

CathyR,



No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

Its part of my theory that there was not simply one staging but multiple stagings. Formerly the fly in the ointment was the barbie nightgown, people suggested it arrived accidently in the wine-cellar, that has been resolved since it is blood-stained and covered a barbie-doll, neither of these factors can be argued as accidental.

There is clear forensic evidence that both John and Patsy were involved in the staging, and to date little or none implicating Burke.

So one scenario is Patsy kills JonBenet, then stages her death, followed by John restaging certain features to minimize the focus falling on him?

Alternately Burke kills JonBenet , Patsy stages some scenario, with John again tailoring it to suit his agenda.

Or regardless of who killed JonBenet all three are involved to some extent in the staging, even if Burke is only moving non-crime-scene objects around and keeping silent on critical issues.

The scenario that shocks most people is that of John killing JonBenet staging some crime-scene then Patsy assisting with a revised crime-scene e.g. the wine-cellar by adding the ligature etc.

Lets put it another way: JonBenet was not simply killed in the corridor of the basement then dumped in the wine-cellar!

.

CathyR
10-23-2010, 08:04 AM
UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

UKGuy
10-23-2010, 09:05 AM
UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

CathyR,
There is a laundry list of evidence. I ignore some evidence such as the ransom note since its purpose is entirely diversionary e.g. it it not part of the original crime-scene.

We have the paint-tray:

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.


13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --



Also Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature that was tied around JonBenet's neck, her fibers were found on the underside of the duct-tape that had been placed over JonBenet's lips. All this despite Patsy stating she had not been in the wine-cellar the previous night at all!

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.


3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.
14 And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.
16 MR. WOOD: Right. Not, not



Fibers from Johns Israeli manufactured shirt were found on JonBenet's genitalia, remember the Coroner cited evidence for someone wiping JonBnet down.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.


10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 [b]according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.
25 MR. WOOD: And again, you state


http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.


The latter are items that link the parents directly with the crime-scene, whether you interpret them as reliable or relevant is for you to decide.

.

SuperDave
10-23-2010, 01:28 PM
All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?

Some. And it was the worst of it, but even then, it slants RDI. If RDI, it was the worst because it had to be. It doesn't make sense, IDI-wise, since the damage would have been MUCH worse than it was. It's as if someone took a blind shot.


But at a different location than the healing area?

Possibly.


The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing.

Some of her vaginal wall had been eroded too.


What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred.

I've heard estimates anywhere from three to ten days. More accurately, Dr. McCann said that he could only go back ten days, but it could have been much longer.


It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

Most places I know, kids are out of school for Christmas break from the 22nd to January 2nd.


You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know?

joeskidbeck
10-23-2010, 02:31 PM
That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

DeeDee249
10-23-2010, 02:41 PM
There was at least one practice note that began "Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey..." The handwriting of the practice note matched the ransom note. Patsy's sister (I believe it was her) admitted that the practice note WAS written by Patsy but she said it was the beginning of a party invitation. LE never pushed to know why she would say the practice note was written by Patsy, yet not the ransom note, when the handwriting was the same.
There were also several missing pages that had been ripped out of the pad between that practice note and the RN.

SuperDave
10-23-2010, 04:50 PM
That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

I get you all right.

KoldKase
10-23-2010, 10:38 PM
No, it isn't and I really wish it was. FFJ was established so long ago and its a way for a really tight-knit group who have been around forever and know everything to discuss the case.

I didn't feel right joining. I felt like I would be barging in without an invite. I just want to view that case library.. maybe someone could make it public, maybe there are good reasons it's private.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about any "barging in" causing any fallout, as I don't think we're all that picky. I think the issue right now about adding new members is that the mods are few and nobody has the time to monitor the forum that much. FFJ got targeted by trolls a lot when it first opened because of a lot of bad blood between members of other forums. In fact, that's why it was opened. Then there were the IDIs who came in meaning to cause trouble. We were probably too sensitive, too, by then, but at some point, you just want to discuss the case and not waste time fighting over insults. With a larger forum, that's just not possible, no matter how much people try to behave--and I'm as bad as anyone when I get worked up, I admit.

I talked to the admin at FFJ and she says the forum case library should be open to the public, including case transcripts and photos we've put up recently. I've logged out of FFJ and I can see them fine.

Would y'all try it and see if you can, too? We'd like for that to be public:

Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice

joeskidbeck
10-24-2010, 05:03 AM
Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.

Agatha_C
03-27-2012, 05:45 PM
Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.


Since someone took the survey and brought the thread to the front of the line, I thought to add a link to the picture of the tape on FFJ...

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