Jaycee told LE that the girls were not molested.

[WillenFan21]

From the Jane Valez Mitchell Twitter Page:

issueswithjvm SFGate.com Report: Jaycee Dugard denies that her daughters were molested. More with the panel at 7 ET tonight on #HLNTV

http://twitter.com/issueswithjvm/status/4156881757

http://twitter.com/issueswithjvm


Dugard said to deny daughters were molested

Phillip Matier,Andrew Ross

Sunday, September 20, 2009
Print E-mail

Almost from the start, police have had to ponder the disturbing possibility that kidnap-rape suspect Phillip Craig Garrido sexually molested the two girls whom he is suspected of fathering with his alleged hostage of 18 years, Jaycee Dugard.

Now comes word that the answer appears to be "no" - at least according to Dugard.

"She's saying he didn't touch her kids," says one law enforcement source who is following the investigation.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/20/BA8V19P82M.DTL#ixzz0RmciumGX

[songline]

NOT SURPRISED AT ALL. :(
JC IS STILL BRAIN WASHED,
They are all in the process of getting De-Programed.
We do have to give her some tme. A lot of time.

God Bless the 3 angels :angel: :angel: :angel:

[mike-]

Songline - You don't think she could be honestly answering a straight forward question? It seems possible that she's telling the truth to me.

[Indianagirl]

Maybe she doesn't know if he was? Maybe Garrido told the girls it was their secret?

[oh_gal]

It would be so wonderful if it were true!
However, Jaycee was horribly abused and mentally manipulated for years...you don't get over that, or forget "how to act" in a matter of weeks.

[MarioMangler]

Since day one I have predicted that the two younger girls were probably never abused. You have to remember, PG and NG essentially raised both them from birth. They knew these two as babies, which I would imagine would put them in a whole different light than someone like Jaycee, who they abducted at 11. Serial rapist or not, my guess is that it would be a lot harder to think of someone you raised since birth as a sex object.

Until it is proven otherwise, I have no doubt at all that PG and Jaycee are both telling the truth on this particular subject.

Which, of course, makes the whole story even weirder when it comes to Starlit and Angel, since they have probably now been ripped away from-- to them-- what seemed like a perfectly normal familial arrangement. To them, all they know is that they suddenly have no more mom or dad.

This whole story is just so bizarre.

[LinasK]

Since day one I have predicted that the two younger girls were probably never abused. You have to remember, PG and NG essentially raised both them from birth. They knew these two as babies, which I would imagine would put them in a whole different light than someone like Jaycee, who they abducted at 11. Serial rapist or not, my guess is that it would be a lot harder to think of someone you raised since birth as a sex object.

Umm, no I disagree, or incest wouldn't happen ever. Unfortunately being a birth parent doesn't necessarily make for a good parent. I won't even get into the famous cases where I'm sure it's happened or was likely to...
If Philip and Nancy Garrido were a normal couple with infertility problems, they'd have seen fertility doctors, adopt, or hired a surrogate to be a mother rather than kidnap and rape an 11-year-old girl to be their surrogate!:furious:

[gitana1]

I hope it's true too. And I think it is possible that it's true because they were his flesh and blood and sometimes certain predators will not touch their own relations, and only go outside the family. However, obviously, it's a huge concern because this guy seems a real out of control predator, crossing all kinds of lines. Also, Jaycee may not know everything he did, even with her own daughters. Finally, the guy said he slept with those babies every night, in his arms. Seems awfully weird to me. Most father's don't sleep while embracing their children all night, espcially not preteen and teen girls, and this "father" is dangerous sexual predator, which makes his sleeping with his daughters all the more creepy.
IMO, there is a good chance he abused them sexually, but if so, I'd be happy if that news never got out. Maybe Jaycee is just trying to protect them. I don't know.

[Natal]

Or maybe she is telling the truth.

Convincing kids that they had been abused when they have not been, is as bad and possibly worse than abuse itself. So, if there is no evidence to the contary, and everyone involved says it didn't happen, let it slide folks.

[gitana1]

Umm, no I disagree, or incest wouldn't happen ever. Unfortunately being a birth parent doesn't necessarily make for a good parent. I won't even get into the famous cases where I'm sure it's happened or was likely to...

I hear what you are saying but there is something called the childhood familiarity theory which states that those involved in, or witnesses to the day-to-day care of infants and toddlers, such as bathing, feeding, diaper changing, etc., are less likely to view those particular infants or toddlers as sex objects, at any time as the children age. This can be true sometimes even when the person involved is a pedophile. It's like a person involved in such care really relates to the child as a child needing care and that somehow prevents them from having sexual feelings for that person, even in adulthood. In China, in the old days, people would arrange marriages in some parts between infants and often, and infant girl was sent to live with her husband-to-be and his family, when they were still babies or small children. This theory explains why these couples later in life reported zero sexual attraction to one another. Yes, incestual parents seem to not fit with the theory but I believe there was a study which held that parents who molested their children were less likely to have been intimately involved in the day-to-day care of the molested child. So, it is possible that garrido did not touch the girls. Possible but I'm not sure if it is probable. I hope he didn't. That's all I can say.

[songline]

Songline - You don't think she could be honestly answering a straight forward question? It seems possible that she's telling the truth to me.

Yes it is possible.
However - she is brain washed and he is Child Molester.
I rather they get De-programed properly and then if the answer is still NO then
I will believe it and be happy for them in some way.

He still robed them of a Mother, making them think JC was the sister.
He still made them live in a hovel, and get no education.
He had a computer they could have been doing work on line.

[LinasK]

Or maybe she is telling the truth.

Convincing kids that they had been abused when they have not been, is as bad and possibly worse than abuse itself. So, if there is no evidence to the contary, and everyone involved says it didn't happen, let it slide folks.
Considering the words of a convicted serial rapist were that his daughters slept in his arms every night, I think it's a very real possibility! It's not the same as trying to pin every murder in the state of California on him.

[songline]

Maybe she doesn't know if he was? Maybe Garrido told the girls it was their secret?

Yes that is what predators do.

[songline]

Or maybe she is telling the truth.

Convincing kids that they had been abused when they have not been, is as bad and possibly worse than abuse itself. So, if there is no evidence to the contary, and everyone involved says it didn't happen, let it slide folks.
I'D be thrilled if the stories are still the same after they get de-programed. :)

Nobody will ever convince them that anything happened.
they will let the right people know.

AND WE MAY NEVER KNOW THE TRUTH :)
that is just fine with me.

[mike-]

PG's history hasn't been incest, it's been violent sex. He has said that the only sex that would satisfy him was forcible and violent. It seems completely possible that Jaycee and PG are accurate when they say the young girls were never abused. Maybe raising them from birth made it more difficult for him to act on his particular sick compulsions, as opposed to an 11 year old girl that he had never seen before, and the older woman that he raped in the storage unit.

[Natal]

Considering the words of a convicted serial rapist were that his daughters slept in his arms every night, I think it's a very real possibility! It's not the same as trying to pin every murder in the state of California on him.

I would hazard a guess that most serial rapists don't rape their own children. PG's thing was bondage and violent assault, I don't think that familial molestation fits with that type of person.

People who molest their own children see it as an act of love. Based on what we have been told, PG's rapes were an exercise in control and degradation, which is a completely different psycology. He got off on forcing his will on his victims. If he was acting out his sexual thing with the kids, noone in that household would have been under any illusions about it.

[songline]

PG's history hasn't been incest, it's been violent sex. He has said that the only sex that would satisfy him was forcible and violent. It seems completely possible that Jaycee and PG are accurate when they say the young girls were never abused. Maybe raising them from birth made it more difficult for him to act on his particular sick compulsions, as opposed to an 11 year old girl that he had never seen before, and the older woman that he raped in the storage unit.

His songs are that of liking young girls.
If he had some secret from JC and taught the girls to never tell,
creating the forbidden time with them individually.
IT could have satisfied the bad boy...
maybe a band aid for when he had no violent sex.
He is far too sick and so were his songs.
While with some there is only one pattern.
He raped woman and child.

You may be right, but I would put nothing past him at all.
And until these girls are De-programed I am not sure of anything.

[songline]

I would hazard a guess that most serial rapists don't rape their own children. PG's thing was bondage and violent assault, I don't think that familial molestation fits with that type of person.

People who molest their own children see it as an act of love. Based on what we have been told, PG's rapes were an exercise in control and degradation, which is a completely different psycology. He got off on forcing his will on his victims. If he was acting out his sexual thing with the kids, noone in that household would have been under any illusions about it.

:eek: I think you mean an act of perversion, and power. There is no love there. They know it is wrong.

PG sang songs of liking young girls. He is a pervert. I can not see him having boundaries.
I can see him brain washing them and having secrets too.
I wonder what will show up after the De-Programing.

[MBK]

He saw sleeping with his daughters in his arms every night as an act of love. I don't think that anyone would consider this normal. But in doing so, he "normalized" inappropriate touching with his daughters. IF he did not sexually abuse them, he had surely paved the way so that his daughters would not know what was appropriate and what was inappropriate touching. The "clingy" behavior of his older daughter as pointed out by clients of the print shop might well point to an abuse situation.

Jaycee was raped, obviously . . . if Garrido acted upon his urges, she was brutally raped. Yet she came to see her relationship with this brutal rapist as a marriage of sorts. Can her judgment be trusted? (This is not to say anything against her; she cannot help that her world BECAME Phillip Garrido and his twisted truths.)

It would be a blessing if Jaycee's daughters were not sexually abused (or physically, and I think we can all agree that they are emotionally abused, and deprived) . . . but it wouldn't be surprising if they were. They have enough to deal with, without being sexually abused. Nobody here is hoping that they were; we are just being realistic.

[Leila]

What Jaycee says could very well be true, at least I hope so. We don't know how someone as sick as PG thinks. Maybe after Jaycee had the two children, PG viewed Jaycee differently than he did when she was an 11-year-old child that was a stranger to him.

But, if PG didn't molest the two girls, and if he hadn't touched Jaycee in years............who was he raping and molesting??? :eek:

[adnoid]

PG's history hasn't been incest, it's been violent sex...

Until Jaycee when we know - for a fact - that he also added pedophilia/child rape. To have him later add incest isn't such a leap. It's not proven, of course, but it's not impossible.

[adnoid]

He saw sleeping with his daughters in his arms every night as an act of love....Yet she came to see her relationship with this brutal rapist as a marriage of sorts...

And you know these things as a fact because...?

[phylliyum]

And you know these things as a fact because...?

from articles. PG himself said that he slept with both girls every night, and Jaycee's stepfather said she viewed her relationship with PG as a marriage of sorts. So yes, these are known as facts.

[MBK]

And you know these things as a fact because...?

It is certain that Garrido THOUGHT he loved his daughters . .. the way he spoke about holding them in his arms every night since they were babies showed that. Of course, it isn't love, but, like so many molesters and abusers, he thinks it is. I say that with absolute assurance; I'm not just shooting from the hip here.

As for Jaycee seeing her relationship with Garrido as a marriage, that is a much-repeated quote from her stepfather, Carl Probyn


"Jaycee has strong feelings with this guy. She really feels it's almost like a marriage," Carl Probyn said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/31/crimesider/entry5277473.shtml
{Article from CBS news has a nice pix of Jaycee, her mother, and her baby sister (someone else, too)}

Since everything we have heard about Jaycee is second or third-hand, this statement is as credible as anything else. It is quite believable.

In addition, in a tabloid, http://www.nationalenquirer.com/jaycee_duggard_garrido_anatomy_of_a_psycho_sex_off ender_stalag/celebrity/67234it was claimed that Jaycee was forced to "marry" Garrido in a twisted backyard ceremony. I'd take that with a grain of salt, but it also seems entirely possible.

My larger point was that DESPITE being brutally raped numerous times by a man who is a serial rapist into violent and coercive sex, Jaycee came to have a BOND with Garrido, a bond described by her stepfather as being like a marriage. So, if you can see rape as love, you might not read the signs of abuse or love correctly when it comes to the daughters.

[adnoid]

from articles. PG himself said that he slept with both girls every night, and Jaycee's stepfather said she viewed her relationship with PG as a marriage of sorts. So yes, these are known as facts.

I haven't seen that statement from her stepfather - I just read in an article today that her stepfather has yet to see her, in fact:

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009909210335

"...Probyn said he has not seen Dugard since she was discovered Aug. 26. His only conversation with Terry Probyn was after the FBI called to report she was alive, he said..."

And I am unaware of ANY statement made by PG beyond the one bizarre phone interview, and I don't think a convicted rapist and admitted child molester is any authority on loving relationships.

[mysteriew]

Jaycee would have been more alert to her children because of her history. And she would have been quick to recognize changes in her daughters. So if she says her girls were not molested, then personally I believe it. I wasn't there, there is no evidence showing any different, and there are no charges indicating that the girls were raped. So unless one of the girls themselves say something different, then I see no reason to call Jaycee a liar.

The story is bad enough with what has happened, there is no need to sensationalize it by adding details that the victim denys.

[Natal]

If they find fresh bodies in the back yard you will have reason to question Jaycee's version of events. If they don't then there is no reason to disbelieve her. What you imagine might have gone on in the back yard is not evidence.

At the end of the day we have to go with the facts and evidence such as they are, and not with hypothesis. If she says it didnt happen, and there is nothing to discredit her, then it didnt happen.

[jjenny]

Jaycee would have been more alert to her children because of her history. And she would have been quick to recognize changes in her daughters. So if she says her girls were not molested, then personally I believe it. I wasn't there, there is no evidence showing any different, and there are no charges indicating that the girls were raped. So unless one of the girls themselves say something different, then I see no reason to call Jaycee a liar.

The story is bad enough with what has happened, there is no need to sensationalize it by adding details that the victim denys.
No one has called Jaycee a liar. But there have been a lot of speculation she might suffer from Stockholm syndrome, and her behavior seem to fit.

[jjenny]

And you know these things as a fact because...?

Here are Garridos' own words:
"He also insisted he had not abused his two daughters, whom he kept captive along with their mother their entire lives, never permitting them to see a doctor or to go to school. ''They slept in my arms every single night from birth. I never touched them,'' he said, crying."
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/kidnap-suspect-boasts-story-will-impress-20090830-f3na.html

[adnoid]

Here are Garridos' own words:
"He also insisted he had not abused his two daughters, whom he kept captive along with their mother their entire lives, never permitting them to see a doctor or to go to school. ''They slept in my arms every single night from birth. I never touched them,'' he said, crying."
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/kidnap-suspect-boasts-story-will-impress-20090830-f3na.html

Forgive me for not considering his words credible. Criminals say all kinds of things to minimize their crimes. It's what they do.

[jjenny]

Forgive me for not considering his words credible. Criminals say all kinds of things to minimize their crimes. It's what they do.

This was posted in response to your question to MBK, "And you know these things as a fact because...?,"

[LinasK]

No one has called Jaycee a liar. But there have been a lot of speculation she might suffer from Stockholm syndrome, and her behavior seem to fit.

Exactly, when Jaycee's current story that he didn't touch them is confirmed by psychologists and doctors who have examined them, then I'll believe it.

[Natal]

No one has called Jaycee a liar. But there have been a lot of speculation she might suffer from Stockholm syndrome, and her behavior seem to fit.

People who have Stockholm syndrome make excuses of their captors behaviour, and defend them. They generally don't lie about the facts however.

[jjenny]

People who have Stockholm syndrome make excuses of their captors behaviour, and defend them. They generally don't lie about the facts however.

I can name two cases in which kidnapped persons have reportedly denied who they were in response to questioning by either police or neighbors. That said, I hope Jaycee's daughters have not been molested.

[songline]

Here are Garridos' own words:"He also insisted he had not abused his two daughters, whom he kept captive along with their mother their entire lives, never permitting them to see a doctor or to go to school. ''They slept in my arms every single night from birth. I never touched them,'' he said, crying."
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/kidnap-suspect-boasts-story-will-impress-20090830-f3na.html

What Garridos says is strange, He is known as the creepy man
His views are warped, His mind is warped, His life is warped;
SO he said it.
IT IS STILL NOT LOVE.
It is a warped mind doing warped things and
knowing fully that it is against the law.
He hid them - he knew.

[songline]

People who have Stockholm syndrome make excuses of their captors behaviour, and defend them. They generally don't lie about the facts however.You are mistaken, Stockholm includes acting on automatic, defending their captor. it very much includes lies.

[mysteriew]

No one has called Jaycee a liar. But there have been a lot of speculation she might suffer from Stockholm syndrome, and her behavior seem to fit.

She has made a statement. But there is still speculation that she isn't telling the truth. That is lying. Let's just kinda go for the long shot and say that she was telling the truth. Wouldn't you say that it might be kinda victimizing her again to say "well but Stockholm Syndorome made her lie?"

And if she didn't know or couldn't face that one of her children (or both) was being abused, wouldn't it be best for her to face that within therapy, in a safe place?

Should she feel that people are speculating about how long that her abuse occurred, whether or not her daughters were abused, even after she has made a statement about that? Wouldn't that be prolonging the road to her ever feeling safe and comfortable out in public? Knowing that people are looking at her and saying that she didn't know what she was saying or that she was protecting her abuser?

[txsvicki]

Exactly, when Jaycee's current story that he didn't touch them is confirmed by psychologists and doctors who have examined them, then I'll believe it.


I agree. Jaycee can't know exactly what went on when she wasn't around and PG took the girls around with him places without her along. I can't see him telling the truth if she specifically asked him either. He's a pedophile and deranged and not to be trusted. Hopefully she didn't have to resort to asking the kids, plus there might not have been physical evidence that she would have noticed even if he ordered them to say nothing. To me, a more reasonable answer would have been that she doesn't think he ever harmed the girls, but can't be positive.

[jjenny]

She has made a statement. But there is still speculation that she isn't telling the truth. That is lying. Let's just kinda go for the long shot and say that she was telling the truth. Wouldn't you say that it might be kinda victimizing her again to say "well but Stockholm Syndorome made her lie?"

And if she didn't know or couldn't face that one of her children (or both) was being abused, wouldn't it be best for her to face that within therapy, in a safe place?

Should she feel that people are speculating about how long that her abuse occurred, whether or not her daughters were abused, even after she has made a statement about that? Wouldn't that be prolonging the road to her ever feeling safe and comfortable out in public? Knowing that people are looking at her and saying that she didn't know what she was saying or that she was protecting her abuser?

I am not sure what it is that you expect me to say? Should we stop all discussion? Is that what you are suggesting?

[adnoid]

This was posted in response to your question to MBK, "And you know these things as a fact because...?,"

If Jaycee said she considered PB a father figure I would take that as a fact. I have not seen a report of her making such a statement. A statement from someone who has - even today - said he has not yet seen Jaycee is hearsay at least once removed. And the statements of a criminal tell me nothing - if PB said "Good Morning" I'd find a window to check for the sun.

[Natal]

I can name two cases in which kidnapped persons have reportedly denied who they were in response to questioning by either police or neighbors. That said, I hope Jaycee's daughters have not been molested.

Three weeks after being in police custody? I think not.

[jjenny]

Three weeks after being in police custody? I think not.

Not three weeks in police custody. But that is neither here nor there, because your statement was that Stockholm's victims always tell the truth. Yet when asked by, let's say a neighbor, if the victim were who the victim were, the victim might deny it even if abductor was nowhere near at the time.
As a result the victim would not get the help the victim needed to escape.

[surelock]

Jaycee would have been more alert to her children because of her history. And she would have been quick to recognize changes in her daughters. So if she says her girls were not molested, then personally I believe it. I wasn't there, there is no evidence showing any different, and there are no charges indicating that the girls were raped. So unless one of the girls themselves say something different, then I see no reason to call Jaycee a liar.

The story is bad enough with what has happened, there is no need to sensationalize it by adding details that the victim denys.

He slept with his daughters in his arms every night. Was that out in the tent area where JC could vouch for what was going on? Who watched him sleep with them? Who would really know other than maybe a doctor or a therapist?

Why give him the benefit of the doubt now?

Maybe he did turn over a new leaf and got religion after the birth of his youngest and never abused again. But wait he got religion the last time, after his last rape, before grabbing JC off of the street!

My heart goes out to JC but she may not be the best source for everything that happened on that property.

[Natal]

You are mistaken, Stockholm includes acting on automatic, defending their captor. it very much includes lies.

Ok, provide an example! ;)

[jjenny]

If Jaycee said she considered PB a father figure I would take that as a fact. I have not seen a report of her making such a statement. A statement from someone who has - even today - said he has not yet seen Jaycee is hearsay at least once removed. And the statements of a criminal tell me nothing - if PB said "Good Morning" I'd find a window to check for the sun.

That was not the MBK question you were responding to.

[Natal]

Not three weeks in police custody. But that is neither here nor there, because your statement was that Stockholm's victims always tell the truth.

Well, we are talking about Jaycee here, so that is the reference point. When she first arrived at the parole office it took a while to get the truth out of her, THAT was Stockholm syndrome. That has passed now. Do you think she is now with her family, sitting off sullenly in some corner pining for PG? That is obviously not happening from all reports we are recieving, so what reason could she have to lie about this?

[jjenny]

Well, we are talking about Jaycee here, so that is the reference point. When she first arrived at the parole office it took a while to get the truth out of her, THAT was Stockholm syndrome. That has passed now. Do you think she is now with her family, sitting off sullenly in some corner pining for PG? That is obviously not happening from all reports we are recieving, so what reason could she have to lie about this?

I have absolutely no idea what she is feeling toward Garrido. Her step-father has claimed she has strong feelings for Garrido and viewed it almost like a marriage. I have no idea how long would it take for her to overcome these kind of feelings if indeed she has them.

[adnoid]

That was not the MBK question you were responding to.

Um, OK.

[Stephens]

MBK, I agree with you. Particularly on the clingy behavior. My father is a retired detective and he always considered that, a girl clinging to a father, as a tell-tale sign of child rape. He noted the difference between children who are being battered or witnessing domestic violence as this: those children certainly do not stray far from the father, but they generally don't cling, hold onto their fathers. They tend to look down or sullen, but these girls, and even Dugard, noticeably looked at Garrido as if he were God-like (If you noticed, Nancy Garrido didn't look at Phillip Garrido that way, if at all, during their times together in court so far). A man doesn't do that to women and girls--making them entirely dependent on him--unless he intends to exploit them thoroughly (think: David Karesh). Child rapists seek out to exploit religion to justify their behavior, not stop it. For crying out loud, this man saw himself as God! Once you believe you are inherently moral superior to others you will commit unspeakable evil. It's not a possibility, but an inevitability! As has been said throughout history: power corrupts; absolute power corrupts--absolutely.

But let's assume Dugard is telling the truth--as she knows it. Remember, she was a child when she was taken so I doubt she understood what pedophiles were like, that they rape child after child, never stopping, and they are beyond ruthless in their ability to manipulate. She would not know what signs to even look for and as a thoroughly dependent captive she would blindly trust Garrido, which he would exploit easily (Again, you don't make yourself all-powerful and not abuse).

There were several moments where Garrido was alone with the girls, as he himself mentioned that the girls "slept" in his arms every night, he lies as easily as he abuses--continuing to tell neighbors that a disgruntled ex-girlfriend lied about him in 1976--and Dugard herself mentioned he stopped raping her years ago. Who was he raping then after he stopped with Dugard? Garrido sees rape, particularly the raping of young girls, as not only his ultimate sexual fantasy but the only--only--way he can be sexually satisfied. Why would he turn that down ever, let alone every day for the past several years? He wouldn't.

Honestly, if you think he's been celibate all this time and not abused during his reign as "God," I have a bridge to sell you.

[surelock]

Well, we are talking about Jaycee here, so that is the reference point. When she first arrived at the parole office it took a while to get the truth out of her, THAT was Stockholm syndrome. That has passed now. Do you think she is now with her family, sitting off sullenly in some corner pining for PG? That is obviously not happening from all reports we are recieving, so what reason could she have to lie about this?

Wow the Stockholm system has passed after only 2 months of freedom following 29 years of being a sex slave. Ain't modern medicine grand?

[mysteriew]

He slept with his daughters in his arms every night. Was that out in the tent area where JC could vouch for what was going on? Who watched him sleep with them? Who would really know other than maybe a doctor or a therapist?

Why give him the benefit of the doubt now?

Maybe he did turn over a new leaf and got religion after the birth of his youngest and never abused again. But wait he got religion the last time, after his last rape, before grabbing JC off of the street!

My heart goes out to JC but she may not be the best source for everything that happened on that property.

If he said that he never kidnapped and raped any other children would you believe him? Do you trust his word? With him, I would verify everything. Jaycee hasn't said he slept with them in his arms every night. So as far as I know that didn't happen.

[jjenny]

If he said that he never kidnapped and raped any other children would you believe him? Do you trust his word? With him, I would verify everything. Jaycee hasn't said he slept with them in his arms every night. So as far as I know that didn't happen.

We actually don't know what Jaycee is saying about this. There is this report that she denies he ever molested them. The report doesn't indicate what she says their exact sleeping arrangements were.

[Stephens]

Let me make it clear (in case someone misreads my previous comment): my dad didn't think every girl who happened to cling to their dad was a child rape victim, but the context we're talking about here is behavior that already strikes most people as, at least, odd, if not troubling. Another woman, I believe, also made note of the younger daughter clinging to Garrido. The fact it was noted by others besides the UC Berkeley officers is what makes this behavior stand out.

[mysteriew]

We actually don't know what Jaycee is saying about this. There is this report that she denies he ever molested them. The report doesn't indicate what she says their exact sleeping arrangements were.

So because she hasn't addressed it, you will believe that it happened? Then take that one step futher and insist that therefore they had to have been molested also? Despite their mother's denial?

[jjenny]

So because she hasn't addressed it, you will believe that it happened? Then take that one step futher and insist that therefore they had to have been molested also? Despite their mother's denial?

Garrido has said the children slept in his arms every night since birth.
She has not addressed it. What do you expect me to believe? You've already said you don't believe what Garrido has said. I take things he is saying with a grain of salt. But what would be the reason for him to make this up?

[surelock]

If he said that he never kidnapped and raped any other children would you believe him? Do you trust his word? With him, I would verify everything. Jaycee hasn't said he slept with them in his arms every night. So as far as I know that didn't happen.

No I do not beleive everything that he has said, but I am not going to discount his assertion that he slept with the daughters just cause he said it.

Jaycee might very well be trying to protect her daughters and is limiting the info that she gives out. Really only a doctor,or the chilldren themselves can say what happened.

[mysteriew]

"And having those two children, those two girls, they have slept in my arms every single night from birth."

Garrido's words. We have established that his words are being believed because there is nothing being said to contradict them.

"I never touched them."


Also Garrido's words. Verified by Jaycee, and apparently backed up at the present by LE as no charges are filed for sexual abuse of any type against the girls.

I guess I am just not getting it. Either his words are believable or they aren't. And if they aren't, doesn't there have to be some proof of a crime? Unless or until one of those girls says abuse was perpetrated against her, then I don't see where it gains anything to assume there was abuse. As a matter of fact I think it is harmful to accuse the known victim of not telling the truth and trying to push victimization on two minor children, for which there is currently no evidence of sexual abuse. If there was abuse then it would be up to a) authorities b) the children c) the mother to make the accusations of sexual abuse.

http://www.kcra.com/news/20604335/detail.html

[gitana1]

I guess the bottom line is that reality may be better left unsaid when it comes to the girls. Many of us here on Websleuths try to understand as best as possible, the criminal mind, what makes them tick, what are their patterns. But, the interests of the girls in maintaining privacy and trying to come to terms with the horror of the life they lived (whether or not sexual abuse was involved) and the horror of who there father is, would surely be hampered by public discussion of all the ways they were victimized. I do believe it is possible garrido did not ause them in this way. Surely, we all hope that's the truth. But, I would rather never know than have anything happen that may further traumatize these kids. They must be in a very fragile place right now.

[RJA00]

god i hope he has not touched the girls

i know he is a sick man, but maybe he is not that sick to mess with his own kids
i pray

[Natal]

Let me make it clear (in case someone misreads my previous comment): my dad didn't think every girl who happened to cling to their dad was a child rape victim, but the context we're talking about here is behavior that already strikes most people as, at least, odd, if not troubling. Another woman, I believe, also made note of the younger daughter clinging to Garrido. The fact it was noted by others besides the UC Berkeley officers is what makes this behavior stand out.

You do realize that this girl had most likely seen very few people in her life and spoken to even less. Of course she was going to be extremely intimidated when she was brought into social situations with strangers. she didn't trust them. At some point in the last few years Garrido had decided that the girls needed to get out more, which is why he took them around with him (I bet that self help book they found at the home had something to do with that). It would have been less of an issue for the younger girl because she was younger (and therefore better able to learn these new skills).

I remember when I was growing up, my family pretty much kept to themselves and I was pretty shy, particularly in social settings with people I hadn't met before or didnt know well. In the case of Jaycees older daughter, it is not a sign of sexual abuse, it is a sign of social isolation.

[Natal]

Btw, ya'll realize that at some point these girls are going to research the defining moment of their lives and come and read all this stuff right?

I wonder if this board will still be around then, and what they would think? Interesting.

[Stephens]

One other thing: didn't Garrido just recently, as in 2006, give away that CD of disturbing songs? And then there's also the 2006 claim by neighbors that he tried to lure teen girls after a party and a few drinks.

In other words, if he hasn't been raping Dugard in years and he's obviously still drawn to harming girls, he has been raping others.

I know that some think that if he has raped his daughters then perhaps it's best that it not be made public. All that does is entrench the notion of shame for rape victims, particularly those by their own family members. Plus, these girls are totally hidden from the public eye and they will all but certainly have new identities so I don't understand the argument against it.

It's best to have it all out. I'll never forget the story I heard of a woman who was raped when she was 13 by the two men who robbed and killed her parents during a home invasion. The DA told her it was best not to report it because it would only harm her. Now, she says she feels as if the deep pain they caused her wasn't acknowledged. There's something that is to be said about hearing a jury say, "Guilty," when you're the victim of a violent crime. It's validating. Even if you're just a kid when it happens, it'll help you in the future.

[jjenny]

Btw, ya'll realize that at some point these girls are going to research the defining moment of their lives and come and read all this stuff right?

I wonder if this board will still be around then, and what they would think? Interesting.

This site is far from being the only discussion board about the case. Considering Jaycee has spend 18 years with Garrido and apparently has not tried to escape, people are going to be curious about the situation and what went on. Also, it is possible she and maybe even the children will have to testify at trial (if there is one). If that is the case, then a lot of information will come out, and I doubt our discussion will matter one way or the other. Garrido certainly seem to want a trial, at which he thinks a "heartwarming" story comes out, so it's not likely he would plead guilty to anything. I bet the police hope Jaycee and the children won't have to testify, but there might be no choice in the end, because unlike Devlin, I don't think Garrido would plead guilty.

[Stephens]

Damn it, my edit function isn't working:

Just to be clear, I realize the CD was of songs written several years ago, but the fact he felt so comfortable with releasing them without changing the content or context of the songs, says a lot about his mindset just a few years ago. And I also forgot to mention that neighbor who called the LE in '06 about the girls living in the yard and his supposed "psychotic sex addiction."

[Natal]

Plus, these girls are totally hidden from the public eye and they will all but certainly have new identities so I don't understand the argument against it.


I don't think so, in a few years no one will remember who they are. Probably even sooner than that. Once this property search is finished, and assuming they find nothing more, the story will fade until the trial (if there is one). After that it will dissappear from the public eye pretty quickly. There is a never ending stream of new tragic stories to capture attention.

[jjenny]

I don't think so, in a few years no one will remember who they are. Probably even sooner than that. Once this property search is finished, and assuming they find nothing more, the story will fade until the trial (if there is one). After that it will dissappear from the public eye pretty quickly. There is a never ending stream of new tragic stories to capture attention.

I don't think so. People are still talking about Patty Hearst. How many years have it been now?

[Natal]

This site is far from being the only discussion board about the case. Considering Jaycee has spend 18 years with Garrido and apparently has not tried to escape, people are going to be curious about the situation and what went on. Also, it is possible she and maybe even the children will have to testify at trial (if there is one). If that is the case, then a lot of information will come out, and I doubt our discussion will matter one way or the other. Garrido certainly seem to want a trial, at which he thinks a "heartwarming" story comes out, so it's not likely he would plead guilty to anything. I bet the police hope Jaycee and the children won't have to testify, but there might be no choice in the end, because unlike Devlin, I don't think Garrido would plead guilty.

I have my doubts that PG will stand trial, I think it is more likely that he will be treated the same way as Elizabeth Smart's kidnappers. In any event he is on parole, so there isnt really any need for a trial. Nancy may be different, since she obviously isnt on parole, they would need to convict her to lock her up. It is possible they might declare her incompetent as well I suppose, and just lock her up and throw the key away.

One advantage to being declared incompetent is that they would probably not be allowed to give interviews, which could mean that the details of the story would be buried forever.

[jjenny]

I have my doubts that PG will stand trial, I think it is more likely that he will be treated the same way as Elizabeth Smart's kidnappers. In any event he is on parole, so there isnt really any need for a trial. Nancy may be different, since she obviously isnt on parole, they would need to convict her to lock her up. It is possible they might declare her incompetent as well I suppose, and just lock her up and throw the key away.

One advantage to being declared incompetent is that they would probably not be allowed to give interviews, which could mean that the details of the story would be buried forever.

I have my doubts as well, but from what Garrido said, seems like he really wants a trial, so his "heartwarming" story can come out. That, I think makes him different from other known cases.
Can they declare Garrido "incompetent" if he demands a trial? Since he is on parole, can they conclude he violated his parole without a trial, and have him spend the rest of his original sentence behind bars? In any case, like you said, Nancy isn't on parole so what will the authorities do about her? They might have no choice but put her on trial, unless they give her some sort of a deal, which she accepts?

[Natal]

I don't think so. People are still talking about Patty Hearst. How many years have it been now?

Only because she robbed a bank, was rich and got sent to prison. Protesting that she was a victim is what kept her in the limelight well beyond her 15 minutes. I don't think she has been the topic of discussion for a very long time now. Which is not to say that her name doesnt come up on occasion, but people who bump into her on the street won't know who she is.

I think it will be sort of like the infamous "child star", who has their moment in the sun and then slips into oblivion.

[Natal]

I have my doubts as well, but from what Garrido said, seems like he really wants a trial, so his "heartwarming" story can come out. That, I think makes him different from Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper.
Can they declare Garrido "incompetent" if he demands a trial? Since he is on parole, can they conclude he violated his parole without a trial, and have him spend the rest of his original sentence behind bars? In any case, like you said, Nancy isn't on parole so what will the authorities do about her? They might have no choice but put her on trial, unless they give her some sort of a deal?

I don't think they can really give her a deal, because she doesnt have anything of value to give them (unless she can implicate PG in other capital crimes). If they offer her a plea with anything less than life and get nothing in return there will be a howl of outrage. When it comes to getting re-elected, Jaycee and her kids mental health will be less important than the perception of justice being done.

[LillyRush]

I am willing to take Jaycee's word on this right now. Certainly though, it's reasonable for most if not all of us to be a little wary of accepting that as fact considering Phillip's history. That is not at all suggesting Jaycee is a liar, but it's just that she was not really with them all of the time. We already know that he was the one taking them around the neighborhood by himself and who knows whether the claims about them sleeping in the same bed are true. So, she might not even really know for sure and/or she may be in denial. I suppose that if anything did go on that it will come up during further counseling. I would not necessarily expect that to be shared with the general public, if it came out later during therapy sessions.

[songline]

Well, we are talking about Jaycee here, so that is the reference point. When she first arrived at the parole office it took a while to get the truth out of her, THAT was Stockholm syndrome. That has passed now. Do you think she is now with her family, sitting off sullenly in some corner pining for PG? That is obviously not happening from all reports we are recieving, so what reason could she have to lie about this?

First I would recommend that you find out what brain washing does to someone, how long it effects you till you get deprogrammed and how long it may take to become deprogrammed.

It becomes an inherent behavior, and lies are part of survival.
Many books have been written about this topic.

[songline]

Ok, provide an example! ;)
Brainwashing is a huge topic. This is a very special case.
I think it would be a good Idea that you understand how brainwashing works.
I cant create a scenario in my head right now.
But Brain washed people will talk in the direction they were trained to think.
Protecting their abuser is key.

[oh_gal]

Jaycee would have been more alert to her children because of her history. And she would have been quick to recognize changes in her daughters. So if she says her girls were not molested, then personally I believe it. I wasn't there, there is no evidence showing any different, and there are no charges indicating that the girls were raped. So unless one of the girls themselves say something different, then I see no reason to call Jaycee a liar.

The story is bad enough with what has happened, there is no need to sensationalize it by adding details that the victim denys.

I would believe it too, if she weren't physically and mentally abused and conditioned to think and act a certain way for the past 18 years.

I was physically, verbally, emotionally, sexually and mentally abused for much of my first marriage (for approximately 12 years). Oh, not to the same extent as Jaycee -- not even close, don't get me wrong.. But I lived in a house, way back in the woods, isolated from everyone. It had no indoor plumbing, no running water, and no heat source (except for an 80 year old wood stove -- no duct work, no furnace). I didn't have a car to drive, and we had no friends, because my husband (now ex) told me that if anyone knew how we lived, they'd call the police and we'd have our son taken away from us.

During that time, I doubted many things about myself, as well as the world and people around me. My world became so small and closed -- what you see as reality, and real, change.

When I left, it took me a while to get past a lot of things, and some things still pop up from time to time that I have to deal with, much to the frustration of my current husband (although he's too sweet to ever phrase it quite like that). But I have trust issues.

So, again, if it weren't for what she went through, and my own first hand knowledge of what relationships like this can do to you (to the extent that I experienced it), I'd agree with you. But I'll give it some time for the truth to come out. But I hope it's true, that he didn't touch those girls.

[Natal]

Brainwashing is a huge topic. This is a very special case.
I think it would be a good Idea that you understand how brainwashing works.
I cant create a scenario in my head right now.
But Brain washed people will talk in the direction they were trained to think.
Protecting their abuser is key.

There is no evidence that she is protecting him, or that she has been "brainwashed". By all accounts she has integrated well back into her family other than except her first few hours of freedom. So, that suggests that there isn't any "brainwashing".

I'm still waiting for my example btw :)

[kbl8201]

i agree with natal. she does seem to have intergrated back into her family well, and she sure didnt protect garrido at all. she obviously told them everything he did to her. i find it inconcievable that if she would do that, she would then lie about what he did/did not do to her girls. but then again it's possible she doesnt know........

[Natal]

I am willing to take Jaycee's word on this right now. Certainly though, it's reasonable for most if not all of us to be a little wary of accepting that as fact considering Phillip's history. That is not at all suggesting Jaycee is a liar, but it's just that she was not really with them all of the time. We already know that he was the one taking them around the neighborhood by himself and who knows whether the claims about them sleeping in the same bed are true. So, she might not even really know for sure and/or she may be in denial. I suppose that if anything did go on that it will come up during further counseling. I would not necessarily expect that to be shared with the general public, if it came out later during therapy sessions.

Oh, those girls probably know every minute detail of each others day to day lives, I doubt much would happen that the others wouldn't find out about. They wouldnt be like normal families. I think part of the problem here is that you folks are looking at their world through your eyes and interpreting things that way. I could believe that they might see nothing wrong with those sorts of activities, but not know? Doubtful.

[Missizzy]

Let's hope to high heaven that the little girls were never touched. I'm certain we all agree on this. That said, I wanted to share my perspective.

When our eight children were raped, the rapes went on for over 18 months. The children continued to visit the rapist (a neighbor) and even begged to go play with him. They covered up the evidence. They threw away soiled underclothes and other things I'd rather not mention. The rapist had them so convinced that they were "part" of the game. He also threatened them with raping older family members and with a shotgun which he showed them. Then, he really made the trauma sink in by killing one of our cats and cutting another's tail off in front of them.

When the first disclosure came in from our 12 year old, none of the others spoke out immediately. They had to each check and double check that the rapist was truly locked up before their sad stories started to trickle out. They were also terrified of getting one another in trouble--and they were only 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, and 12. One by one, over the course of two weeks, each child disclosed to the police and therapists what had been done to them. Then other, unrelated children started coming forward. They all knew about the others' abuse too. We, as parents, felt so guilty and betrayed--not only by the monster but that our young children would not ask us for help and tell us what was happening. They really went to great lengths to protect their rapist and repeatedly expressed concern for him when he went to jail.

Both my husband and I were home with these children every day and are extremely over-protective but the rapist still got by us. We are very experienced parents and my background is in child development. The rapist's mother was a respected teacher, his father was a doctor, and and our children begged to play. Our children went to a wonderful elementary school and were surrounded by helpful and caring special ed teachers and therapists. Two of our kids were actually raped in the school restroom as was another child not related to us. Why did they not cry out for help? Because the rapist had totally confused their little minds. Children do not always disclose right away, even when there are many many safe people to disclose to. Sometimes, as we all know, it takes time.

I pray that Jaycee was with those girls all the time and knows for certain that there was no abuse but I doubt that to be true. Jaycee and her girls were no doubt continuously and purposefully prevented from knowing right from wrong and up from down. PG took the girls alone to Berkeley and probably to many other places without Jaycee. Abuse only takes seconds as I learned the hard way. Many offenders really get off on abusing children right in front of their parents, teachers, or others. The risk factor turns them on.

I have a vision burned in my memory. It's of the rapist waving and smiling at me from the top of our children's play structure which had an enclosed fort. It came out at trial that while he was waving at me, my 6 year old was being forced to perform oral sex on him as several other children looked on. The child described it in detail in court and even turned to me from the witness stand and said, "Don't you remember, Mommy, he was laughing and waving at you and I thought you could see what he wanted me to do." Those words will haunt me forever.

I want to hold out hope, however, I'm a realist.

[kbl8201]

thanks for sharing missizzy. i know how difficult that was to do. im so sorry that happened to your kids. i hope the animal got life.........
as i said i dont think jaycee is lying to protetc garrido. she hasnt protected him from what he did to her, why would she protect him if she knew he hurt her girls? if the girls were abused it is very possible she doesnt know.....

[oh_gal]

Do we actually know for a fact that Jaycee is doing as well as has been hinted at here? (Before you jump all over me, I have not been as up to date as many of you obviously are regarding news and interviews and such.) As far as I know, she has not done an interview, and I've seen a few comments from her Aunt, but that's about it. All I heard from the Aunt was how glad they were to have her home, and how she's getting to know her mom again...and letting her mom get to know her and the girls. While those are nice statements, they don't really tell us how she's "doing." And if I were her family, I doubt I'd get on national tv and say, "She's really having a difficult time..there was a lot of mental abuse going on." I'd want to keep that private. Anyway, I really find it hard to believe that this girl has gone from 18 years of abuse to living back at home, and everything's great. She might be supressing stuff.

[LinasK]

Btw, ya'll realize that at some point these girls are going to research the defining moment of their lives and come and read all this stuff right?

I wonder if this board will still be around then, and what they would think? Interesting.
So you think we shouldn't be discussing it for fear, years later they might read it??? You have no way of knowing whether they will or not, and by then they'll have gotten lots of therapy to deal with what's happened to them. Besides, I highly doubt reading Websleuths to see what's been said about them is a priority for them right now...

[LinasK]

Brainwashing is a huge topic. This is a very special case.
I think it would be a good Idea that you understand how brainwashing works.
I cant create a scenario in my head right now.
But Brain washed people will talk in the direction they were trained to think.
Protecting their abuser is key.
Exactly! Noone on this board has ever suggested Jaycee was a purposeful liar. Jaycee however has had 18 years of brainwashing and trained to defend her abductor and fear him!

[kbl8201]

Do we actually know for a fact that Jaycee is doing as well as has been hinted at here? (Before you jump all over me, I have not been as up to date as many of you obviously are regarding news and interviews and such.) As far as I know, she has not done an interview, and I've seen a few comments from her Aunt, but that's about it. All I heard from the Aunt was how glad they were to have her home, and how she's getting to know her mom again...and letting her mom get to know her and the girls. While those are nice statements, they don't really tell us how she's "doing." And if I were her family, I doubt I'd get on national tv and say, "She's really having a difficult time..there was a lot of mental abuse going on." I'd want to keep that private. Anyway, I really find it hard to believe that this girl has gone from 18 years of abuse to living back at home, and everything's great. She might be supressing stuff.

solid points oh gal. in fact the aunt tina said that there were some issues...of course there are. to survive the hell jaycee has she could not possibly have come out of this in perfect shape. she will need years of therapy and so will the girls. (the girls probably more so since they think garrdio is some great dad). but what i was trying to say is they are off to a good start.......

[MBK]

Oh, those girls probably know every minute detail of each others day to day lives, I doubt much would happen that the others wouldn't find out about. They wouldnt be like normal families. I think part of the problem here is that you folks are looking at their world through your eyes and interpreting things that way. I could believe that they might see nothing wrong with those sorts of activities, but not know? Doubtful.

But we really don't know how much time they even spent together. After all, if the girls slept in PG's arms every night, maybe they were sequestered from Jaycee most of the day, too. PG took the daughters out and about, but seemingly not Jaycee. Where they all lived, exactly, and in which structures, is unknown to us at this point.

They didn't know every minute detail of each others' lives - - they didn't know that their "sister" wasn't their sister at all . . . and not to be crude, but the oldest one didn't know that "Daddy" was having sex with her big sister, did she? Then big sis had a baby - - do you think her little sister even KNEW she was pregnant, by PG?

So, no, I don't think there was total transparency at that house! It was an intricate web of lies and secrecy.

And NO, I know that doesn't mean that the daughters were molested. Hope to god they weren't. But if you read the definition in the California Penal Code . . .

[kbl8201]

with him shuffling them off to the tents and sheds he probably kept the older girl unware of jaycee's pregnency

[songline]

Btw, ya'll realize that at some point these girls are going to research the defining moment of their lives and come and read all this stuff right?

I wonder if this board will still be around then, and what they would think? Interesting.
This forum will be in the Archives like other old forums, by the time they are ready to know.
but they will be able to research enough, the internet has lots of data.
They are still a long way off form that time, they have to be emotionally ready to read about that SOB.
so far as they know he is Dad. Reading all this Chit about your father, one has to be really ready.
How does one ever get ready to learn all this horrible truth? I am not very sure....

But I once knew a woman who was sexually abused by her father and it took many years of work
to come to a place where she felt whole again.
When she heard that he was old and may not live much longer, she went to make peace for her own self.
The man that greeted her at the door as she recalls it now; was a broken down shell -
She told him she wished him well, had a cup of tea with him and told him she felt sorry for him and
thinks he is a coward for what he had done to her, and that she pities him, she said we may never
meet again, but I hope you find peace with it too. After leaving there she had a good cry and felt
that she had healed her last peice.
She is in a relationship finally tha works; she had a revolving list of relationships that did not till
she heald her past.

Some people do come out stronger. Some align with that parent, and that is not so good.

[songline]

So you think we shouldn't be discussing it for fear, years later they might read it??? You have no way of knowing whether they will or not, and by then they'll have gotten lots of therapy to deal with what's happened to them. Besides, I highly doubt reading Websleuths to see what's been said about them is a priority for them right now...
Not to worry, this entire file will be where other old files are: ARCHIVED. :)

[Missizzy]

"And NO, I know that doesn't mean that the daughters were molested. Hope to god they weren't. But if you read the definition in the California Penal Code . . ."

MBK--I'm curious about what you are referring to. Can you explain or give us a link. Thanks. And ITA about the absolute lack of transparency in that house. Offenders depend on others not talking or sharing. Appalling how often they get their wish!!

[songline]

WE WILL NEVER KNOW IF THEY WERE OR WERE NOT MOLESTED.
IT is best to keep their lives privet.
This thread is becoming a fantasy thread. :crazy:

I do not believe any thing PG or NG will say.
And until JC gets programmed I will not take into account all that she says either. By the time she is deprogrammed she will also know about healthy boundaries.

That will include telling us to mind our own business.:blushing:

This thread has been rehashed to the moon and back.

[kbl8201]

WE WILL NEVER KNOW IF THEY WERE OR WERE NOT MOLESTED.
IT is best to keep their lives privet.
This thread is becoming a fantasy thread. :crazy:

I do not believe any thing PG or NG will say.
And until JC gets programmed I will not take into account all that she says either. By the time she is deprogrammed she will also know about healthy boundaries.

That will include telling us to mind our own business.:blushing:

This thread has been rehashed to the moon and back.

to me the issue is jaycee is free and open with everything garrido did to HER. why would she cover his behind if she knew he was hurting her girls? yeah she "bonded with him", i know. that didnt stop her from telling the police what he did to her.........

[songline]

to me the issue is jaycee is free and open with everything garrido did to HER. why would she cover his behind if she knew he was hurting her girls? yeah she "bonded with him", i know. that didnt stop her from telling the police what he did to her.........

Actually she did not tell the police right in the beginning...
It took time. (several hours)
Not surprised. the girl was brain washed.
It will take time for her to know what the truth is.
It will take time for her to feel safe in saying anything that is different from the way she had been trained in the past 18 years.
It can take longer then a year for the brain to be decoded.
Eventually she will be totally open, right now it is one truth at a time, one day at a time, one lesson at a time.
One foot in front of the other little by little.

[MBK]

California's Molestation Law Explained
Question: Eric Norman Olsen, a substitute teacher, has admitted to molesting between 100 and 200 female students, police say. What type of behavior is considered molestation under the law?

Answer: California's child-molestation law has two basic elements. Under Penal Code 288, molestation occurs any time both the victim is younger than 14 and the touching is intended to arouse the sexual desires of either the offender or the victim.

Contrary to what some might assume, the law doesn't limit the definition of molestation to any specific parts of the body, said Jason Anderson, the San Bernardino County deputy district attorney handling Olsen's case.

An offender can touch any part of a child's body for the act to be considered a lewd or lascivious act as long as there's evidence to show it's being done out of sexual desire, Anderson said.

"If there's a 10-year-old boy and I go up to him and touch him on the top of the foot if I do that with a desire to arouse my own sexual gratification, that's a 288," he said.

Molestation is most obvious when it involves the touching of private parts. With other types of touching, investigators must typically rely on statements from the suspect and any witnesses, as well as the context of the touching and the number of times it occurred, Anderson said.

http://www.longbeachalive.org/more_info/State_Statutes.htm

[kbl8201]

Actually she did not tell the police right in the beginning...
It took time. (several hours)
Not surprised. the girl was brain washed.
It will take time for her to know what the truth is.
It will take time for her to feel safe in saying anything that is different from the way she had been trained in the past 18 years.
It can take longer then a year for the brain to be decoded.
Eventually she will be totally open, right now it is one truth at a time, one day at a time, one lesson at a time.
One foot in front of the other little by little.

good points. but i think the fact she did open up about what happened to her (eventually) and the fact that she is back with her family and remembes and loves them are two huge steps in the right direction :)

[LillyRush]

Oh, those girls probably know every minute detail of each others day to day lives, I doubt much would happen that the others wouldn't find out about. They wouldnt be like normal families. I think part of the problem here is that you folks are looking at their world through your eyes and interpreting things that way. I could believe that they might see nothing wrong with those sorts of activities, but not know? Doubtful.

Natal, You don't think that Garrido had time alone with the kids, such as the time when he was commuting to businesses or campuses spreading word of his religion or whatever he was doing? No one has said anything about spotting Jaycee with them at that time. Most people are saying that their only interaction with Jaycee was through the printing business and only at the house. This is not including the possibility that he, based on his words, slept in the same bed with them.

If you can concede that they "might see nothing wrong" with inappropriate touching, then would you not agree that in turn they may not say anything to Jaycee about it as long they thought there was nothing wrong with it? Again, I'm not saying that Jaycee would intentionally lie or cover up anything. Nor do I even want it to even be a possibility. But, there is certainly a possibilty that Jaycee (along with many other parents of abuse victims in the world) may not truly be aware of anything and/or their perception on what was "ok" may have allowed any warning signs or behavior to be shrugged off as nothing.

[songline]

Damn it, my edit function isn't working:

Just to be clear, I realize the CD was of songs written several years ago, but the fact he felt so comfortable with releasing them without changing the content or context of the songs, says a lot about his mindset just a few years ago. And I also forgot to mention that neighbor who called the LE in '06 about the girls living in the yard and his supposed "psychotic sex addiction."
He is a "F" ing #$%^& NUT CASE. :crazy:
His comfortable giving out those songs confirms that.
Nothing he says should be considered without review, and re-review.
He also pleaded not guilty because he is a loon, and he knows what is against the Law
or he would not have hid them. he would have gotten them Birth Cirtificats and on, and on.....
Did he abduct JC - YES
Did he rape JC - YES
Did he impregnate JC - YES
and he said he is not guilty. :furious:

this should not even be a discussion really. We should know better.
The real truth will take about a year to emerge but hopefully
we will not even get to know it.

WE KNOW THIS TOO;
The girls are all brain washed; One for 18 years, 2 from birth on.
Nothing they say until the de-programing is done matters
and yes it takes a minimum of a year to deprogram a mind.

You want to believe him go right ahead. :rolleyes: :eek:
You want to believe any of the girls go right ahead :rolleyes:

Just do not forget it took the police a couple of hours till JC even admitted who she is.

[songline]

to me the issue is jaycee is free and open with everything garrido did to HER. why would she cover his behind if she knew he was hurting her girls? yeah she "bonded with him", i know. that didnt stop her from telling the police what he did to her.........

She only told what he did to her, and that too will take time to come out completely.
She may or may not even know about the girls, They may have had a secret,
she may want to protect them from future tarnish,
she is free Physically only, but fear is not something like a shirt that you can just take off.
NO fear can live forever if not healed.
AT BEST: We do not know, we do not know, we do not know.
AT best - TIME will guide JC, and when the time is right it may come puring out.

Anyone who wants to believe that JC told the truth go right ahead.:crazy:
("TRUTH" as we know truth, not as a brain washed person does)
she cant possible be telling the truth the way we KNOW truth.

But I do hope that the girls were not touched. :)

[Natal]

But we really don't know how much time they even spent together. After all, if the girls slept in PG's arms every night, maybe they were sequestered from Jaycee most of the day, too. PG took the daughters out and about, but seemingly not Jaycee. Where they all lived, exactly, and in which structures, is unknown to us at this point.

They didn't know every minute detail of each others' lives - - they didn't know that their "sister" wasn't their sister at all . . . and not to be crude, but the oldest one didn't know that "Daddy" was having sex with her big sister, did she? Then big sis had a baby - - do you think her little sister even KNEW she was pregnant, by PG?

So, no, I don't think there was total transparency at that house! It was an intricate web of lies and secrecy.

And NO, I know that doesn't mean that the daughters were molested. Hope to god they weren't. But if you read the definition in the California Penal Code . . .

The back isnt that big, and thats where they spent their entire lives, they would have known.

The older sister wouldn't have been asking questions when Jaycee was pregnant because she would have likely been about 3 at the time.

[MBK]

The back isnt that big, and thats where they spent their entire lives, they would have known.

The older sister wouldn't have been asking questions when Jaycee was pregnant because she would have likely been about 3 at the time.

But we don't KNOW that's where they all spent their entire lives, now, do we? It's not clear what the sleeping arrangements were. It's not even clear if possibly some of them even slept next door - - if there were locks on the outside doors!

Also, my brother was 2 when I was born, and he used to stick out his tummy and walk around like my mom was walking! He was observant, and there is no reason to think that a 3 year old wouldn't notice that big sis had something different about her. A 3 year old is old enough to notice something like why is big sis getting fatter if she was there . . . let's not treat these kids like they were total idiots incapable of seeing anything!

[songline]

The back isnt that big, and thats where they spent their entire lives, they would have known.

The older sister wouldn't have been asking questions when Jaycee was pregnant because she would have likely been about 3 at the time.

The place was big enough for him to keep 2 out side busy.
The place was big enough for it to slip by the PO.
the place was big enough to take one on a car ride.
the atmosphere was sick enough to threaten each not to tell
and to tell each that she is a favorite of his and to act normal
so to not make anyone jealous. WHO KNOWS.

If he can deceive 2 states he sure can deceive 3 little girls and I put nothing past him.

You are right about the sister may not remember JC with a belly,
she may have not noticed if JC wore big cloths.
She would have only been 4 years old at that time.

In some families where there is incest they do not even
know it is abuse, and think it is normal. He trained them to think she is their sister.
That is a rip off, abuse, unjust,
The more I know the more angry I get, whether he had sex with the girls or not
he raped them. YES they deserved to know who their mom was, they deserved
to go to school, they deserved to be a citizen not trash.
A penis insertion is not the only thing that a rape victim feels.
But that part we may never get to know, nor is it our business.
But believe him? no way...
Believe her? only after her deprogramming - which is no where in the very near future.

[my2sisters]

But we don't KNOW that's where they all spent their entire lives, now, do we? It's not clear what the sleeping arrangements were. It's not even clear if possibly some of them even slept next door - - if there were locks on the outside doors!

Great point, MBK! There's only one reason to have locks on the outside, isn't there?

[Ssejors]

Uhg.. no offense to any one in this thread but I think it's just the worst thread ever. I dont think it's right, discussing whether or not Jaycee is being truthful or suffering from denial regarding her daughters and whether or not they were indeed molested by PG. It's sad to hear people debating this. I think that it should be left alone until it is proven or dis-proven. It just doesn't seem respectful to Jaycee as it seems like some people are questioning her sanity, her mental health, or her honesty. As someone has already mentioned, we should just wait to see how this pans out for now, rather than scrape through the muck and mire of it all. I really Don't want to offend anyone in this thread.. It's just that I see it as disrespectful to Jaycee to be questioning this issue at this point.

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry. Mods Please delete this comment if it is Way out of line. I'm still new here.

[LinasK]

Uhg.. no offense to any one in this thread but I think it's just the worst thread ever. I dont think it's right, discussing whether or not Jaycee is being truthful or suffering from denial regarding her daughters and whether or not they were indeed molested by PG. It's sad to hear people debating this. I think that it should be left alone until it is proven or dis-proven. It just doesn't seem respectful to Jaycee as it seems like some people are questioning her sanity, her mental health, or her honesty. As someone has already mentioned, we should just wait to see how this pans out for now, rather than scrape through the muck and mire of it all. I really Don't want to offend anyone in this thread.. It's just that I see it as disrespectful to Jaycee to be questioning this issue at this point.

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry. Mods Please delete this comment if it is Way out of line. I'm still new here.
Noone has questioned Jaycee's honesty nor her sanity, in this thread, or any other on this forum...

[songline]

i agree with natal. she does seem to have intergrated back into her family well, and she sure didnt protect garrido at all. she obviously told them everything he did to her. i find it inconcievable that if she would do that, she would then lie about what he did/did not do to her girls. but then again it's possible she doesnt know........

The step dad reports that she was happy to see her mom, etc...
Her sister reports that the girls are playing around etc...
I do not think that is called integrated well :crazy:
Integrated takes some time.
I am sorry but you do not understand the severity of how
the mind works.
I do not care if she is the most CONSCIOUS SOUL, she was only discovered August 27 not even a month ago, and you have her already integrated??????: :waitasec: :crazy:

[flourish]

The step dad reports that she was happy to see her mom, etc...
Her sister reports that the girls are playing around etc...
I do not think that is called integrated well :crazy:
Integrated takes some time.
I am sorry but you do not understand the severity of how
the mind works.
I do not care if she is the most CONSCIOUS SOUL, she was only discovered August 27 not even a month ago, and you have her already integrated??????: :waitasec: :crazy:

bbm
ITA! well put and got me thinking...a month is very short...that is only one menstrual cycle, calendar page flip, one/fourth of the time it takes for my freshly-changed tap water filter to get dirty,...I probably have a brick of cheese in my fridge right now that was purchased while she was still inprisoned etc. etc.

I'm going out on a limb and making an assumption here: the sense of time passing can feel different in relation to your mood and activity (ie: "time flies when you're having fun" vs. the everlasting last minute of school before summer break)

I'm rambling

point is, we're all adjusting to the reality of this horrendous crime, and we are far removed. alert, the following is my speculation only, so please don't ask me for a link or resource;) she is probably still waking up every day with a start and a "where am I?" thought

it takes me about a month to re-acclimate after spending three days traveling to see, seeing, and returning from seeing my family...

[Imbackon]

I just can't believe there are folks already talking about integration.
Geez Louise, I took me years to get over the guilt of my cat's death from falling off the balcony, and you think she has come to some sort of "understanding" now in her mind with what took place since she was kidnapped 18 years ago, and is just now returned to her family?

In psychology, definition of integration:
The organization of the psychological or social traits and tendencies of a personality into a harmonious whole.

No way!

[Imbackon]

No, I don't believe Burke did, but regarding what will or will not be available online years from now, even though Jonbenet Ramsey was killed over 13 years ago, if you google something like Ramsey and Burke did it, you will get an idea.
I am sure the girls will one day search online and yes I hope they will be prepared for all the speculation that took place, but realistically there is no way around it. So go gentle...

[songline]

I just can't believe there are folks already talking about integration.
Geez Louise, I took me years to get over the guilt of my cat's death from falling off the balcony, and you think she has come to some sort of "understanding" now in her mind with what took place since she was kidnapped 18 years ago, and is just now returned to her family?

In psychology, definition of integration:
The organization of the psychological or social traits and tendencies of a personality into a harmonious whole.

No way!
I sure agree with you.
that is why I had to set it straight because some seem to think she integrated so well :rolleyes:
some post blow me away, some have no reality on the severity of this case.

[Missizzy]

I hesitate to weigh in as I know my posts have upset a few others. I believe that some must think that I cannot celebrate or recognize innocence--that I've become jaded through my children's victimization. I happen to believe that no one has a better vantage point than me to shout from the rooftops when I come across innocence, growth, healing, and goodness.

I strongly agree with Songline and Imbackon about integration. Imbackon, your comment about the loss of your cat was a perfect example!! I think everyone, regardless of whether they are survivors or not, can relate.

In our experience of raising eight rape victims, I can personally attest to the fact that each child healed and "integrated" in their own unique way. There were many surprises, too. A couple of our children who have the most serious special needs, seemed to put everything back together quite quickly. Possibly this is because they have never intellectualized their abuse. They know they were hurt, the hurt stopped, and now they are moving on. However, our higher functioning kids did not do as well. Each one grappled and struggled to heal and many are still very much on that path. We are right next to them, buoying them up when they stumble, and celebrating each tiny step towards healing.

Even after the sheer agony of the trial and the conviction (the rapist got 10 years and served every day of it), we experienced periodic upsets. We had rashes of suicide attempts when the case came to the surface again (appeal, Supreme Court, Post Conviction Relief Trial, and request for the governor's clemency). These were also times when we saw a lot of simple acting out, risk taking, and sudden strange illnesses. The children who suffered from serious PTSD had hospitalizations at these times. Heck, when the children had to testify at the PCR Trial and face their rapist again, we thought the whole family would crumble. And this was ten years after the rapes!!

To this day, anything pertaining to the case can set just about any of us off. There are triggers literally everywhere. I was not personally raped but every single time I have to climb marble steps (as in the court house), I feel physically sick. I can only imagine what it does to my kids, who are now all in their 20s. The rapist had a common name and seeing that name on our caller ID causes hearts to race. We had a subpoena delivered to the house recently (for a minor, unrelated issue) and I spent a week peeling adult kids off the ceiling. Our oldest son (not one of the victims) recently took our grandson to an open house at school and ran into the rapist's mother (who works in the same school our grandson attends). Our son had to go out to his car and throw up. There was just too much deja vu for him to bear.

Just as the therapists told us years ago, our children revisit their abuse at transitions in their lives..leaving home, having a close relationship, becoming an aunt or uncle. It was shocking to me to watch our kids start welcoming their nieces and nephews into our lives when they were born. They were literally afraid to touch the babies and toddlers!! We had to ease everyone into celebrating and honoring the wonder of babies and children and the inherent innocence of these little ones. Once taught, they've been highly appropriate and incredibly careful about boundaries (even with their special needs).

We are well on our way to a much more normal life but it will forever be changed by one horrible monster. Twelve years were ripped away from us. Twelve years which should have been normal and full and wonderful but were instead focused on a monster and his crimes.

It is my humble opinion that Jaycee and her girls have a long road ahead of them. We will probably never know all the sordid details on their lives (nor should we) but we can surmise that they've been terribly traumatized. Years of joy and normalcy were stolen from them at the very least. However, with therapy, the unconditional love of friends and family, and their own inner strength, they can survive and triumph.

I do believe in miracles. I wish you could meet my kids.

[songline]

I hesitate to weigh in as I know my posts have upset a few others. I believe that some must think that I cannot celebrate or recognize innocence--that I've become jaded through my children's victimization. I happen to believe that no one has a better vantage point than me to shout from the rooftops when I come across innocence, growth, healing, and goodness.

I strongly agree with Songline and Imbackon about integration. Imbackon, your comment about the loss of your cat was a perfect example!! I think everyone, regardless of whether they are survivors or not, can relate.

In our experience of raising eight rape victims, I can personally attest to the fact that each child healed and "integrated" in their own unique way. There were many surprises, too. A couple of our children who have the most serious special needs, seemed to put everything back together quite quickly. Possibly this is because they have never intellectualized their abuse. They know they were hurt, the hurt stopped, and now they are moving on. However, our higher functioning kids did not do as well. Each one grappled and struggled to heal and many are still very much on that path. We are right next to them, buoying them up when they stumble, and celebrating each tiny step towards healing.

Even after the sheer agony of the trial and the conviction (the rapist got 10 years and served every day of it), we experienced periodic upsets. We had rashes of suicide attempts when the case came to the surface again (appeal, Supreme Court, Post Conviction Relief Trial, and request for the governor's clemency). These were also times when we saw a lot of simple acting out, risk taking, and sudden strange illnesses. The children who suffered from serious PTSD had hospitalizations at these times. Heck, when the children had to testify at the PCR Trial and face their rapist again, we thought the whole family would crumble. And this was ten years after the rapes!!

To this day, anything pertaining to the case can set just about any of us off. There are triggers literally everywhere. I was not personally raped but every single time I have to climb marble steps (as in the court house), I feel physically sick. I can only imagine what it does to my kids, who are now all in their 20s. The rapist had a common name and seeing that name on our caller ID causes hearts to race. We had a subpoena delivered to the house recently (for a minor, unrelated issue) and I spent a week peeling adult kids off the ceiling. Our oldest son (not one of the victims) recently took our grandson to an open house at school and ran into the rapist's mother (who works in the same school our grandson attends). Our son had to go out to his car and throw up. There was just too much deja vu for him to bear.

Just as the therapists told us years ago, our children revisit their abuse at transitions in their lives..leaving home, having a close relationship, becoming an aunt or uncle. It was shocking to me to watch our kids start welcoming their nieces and nephews into our lives when they were born. They were literally afraid to touch the babies and toddlers!! We had to ease everyone into celebrating and honoring the wonder of babies and children and the inherent innocence of these little ones. Once taught, they've been highly appropriate and incredibly careful about boundaries (even with their special needs).

We are well on our way to a much more normal life but it will forever be changed by one horrible monster. Twelve years were ripped away from us. Twelve years which should have been normal and full and wonderful but were instead focused on a monster and his crimes.

It is my humble opinion that Jaycee and her girls have a long road ahead of them. We will probably never know all the sordid details on their lives (nor should we) but we can surmise that they've been terribly traumatized. Years of joy and normalcy were stolen from them at the very least. However, with therapy, the unconditional love of friends and family, and their own inner strength, they can survive and triumph.

I do believe in miracles. I wish you could meet my kids.

Oh My God...this was so hard to read and the tears are just streaming. :(
I wish I can hold and kiss you :blowkiss::blowkiss:
You are an angel :angel: to those children.
I have to say I could not do what you do, I will have to call you HERO, and hope that you are forever blessed.

I do know (not from experience but from counseling others)
that it will take a lot of time. And even when healed there will be times when something will trigger them. :(
Their lives will never be like the nice girl next door.

I also know that the Media will only tell us they are doing well. The less we have to discuss, the faster
the story goes away and the faster they can live like normal people; stop having media everywhere.
A trigger can be in a simple place like 7/11 on the paper stand. Everything will soon quite down.

Obviously the other reason is it is none of our business, and we do not get to be a peeping tom in
peoples life. THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY :)
The media is giving us the minimum, to satisfy us and then they will go away.

This site is about helping to solve a case.
There is nothing to solve. They are home and healing.

I do hope this Forum will very soon become just one thread of updates.
PS:
If you need to talk - it is free :) just send me a PM and I will send you my other contact info.

[stilettos]

The step dad reports that she was happy to see her mom, etc...
Her sister reports that the girls are playing around etc...
I do not think that is called integrated well :crazy:
Integrated takes some time.
I am sorry but you do not understand the severity of how
the mind works.
I do not care if she is the most CONSCIOUS SOUL, she was only discovered August 27 not even a month ago, and you have her already integrated??????: :waitasec: :crazy:

Trust me...she is no way integrated. The woman is suffering and needs help...and time. The torment and torture her mind has gone through takes much time to heal...she may be suffering from PTSD which could make her appear to handle life's basic issues well.....sometimes it is when the victims are in a safe enviornment that the walls come tumbling down. Prayers for Jaycee and the girls.

[Missizzy]

Thank you, Songline, for your kindness. You know, I've had many people over the years tell me that "they couldn't do what I do" and yet no one gets a choice. Trust me, there were days...no months, that I didn't want to do what I was doing. It's like a sudden illness, no one would choose it but when it happens, you just put one foot in front of the other. And don't get me started on a Mother's guilt. There's always something you think you could have done differently, something you missed.

I can really relate to the trauma that Jaycee's mom is going through right now. Of course, she must be delighted beyond belief that her baby girl is back in her arms and her grandchildren are safe but this is a huge shock and she has so much hard work ahead of her. This whole terrible ordeal was not in her "life plan". Life just got turned upside down. You have to become reactive for a long time as the events unfold as they will. It's a lot like being run over by a truck.

The entire family unit will spin for a while and then will, hopefully, start to stabilize. That's when the healing begins.

[songline]

Originally Posted by songline
The step dad reports that she was happy to see her mom, etc...
Her sister reports that the girls are playing around etc...
I do not think that is called integrated well
Integrated takes some time.
I am sorry but you do not understand the severity of how
the mind works.
I do not care if she is the most CONSCIOUS SOUL, she was only discovered August 27
not even a month ago, and you have her already integrated??????:

Trust me...she is no way integrated. The woman is suffering and needs help...and time. The torment and torture her mind has gone through takes much time to heal...she may be suffering from PTSD which could make her appear to handle life's basic issues well.....sometimes it is when the victims are in a safe enviornment that the walls come tumbling down. Prayers for Jaycee and the girls.


:waitasec: :waitasec:That is what I said..Maybe you want to quote the person I was replying to :waitasec: :waitasec:
Which was post #76
I do not need to trust you on this I did counsel for 15 years.

[stilettos]

Originally Posted by songline
The step dad reports that she was happy to see her mom, etc...
Her sister reports that the girls are playing around etc...
I do not think that is called integrated well
Integrated takes some time.
I am sorry but you do not understand the severity of how
the mind works.
I do not care if she is the most CONSCIOUS SOUL, she was only discovered August 27 not even a month ago, and you have her already integrated??????:




:waitasec: :waitasec:That is what I said..Maybe you want to quote the person I was replying to :waitasec: :waitasec:

Actually, i was agreeing with you and jumping off your post...sorry if it was confusing!!! :truce:

[nobody2]

MissIzzy,

I am so sorry for what your family has been through. I am appalled however that anyone could believe 10 years is enough for what this guy did. (I am referring to your case) It should have been 10 years solid for each child, and each rape.

I just can't believe that ANYONE would believe that a guy like that would never do a child harm again. And they put drug dealers in jail for life on "three strikes you're out?" I'm no fan of drug dealers, but I would rather see any non-violent drug offender out before I would see rapists and murderers released early due to full prisons or on "good behavior."

[songline]

Trust me...she is no way integrated. The woman is suffering and needs help...and time. The torment and torture her mind has gone through takes much time to heal...she may be suffering from PTSD which could make her appear to handle life's basic issues well.....sometimes it is when the victims are in a safe enviornment that the walls come tumbling down. Prayers for Jaycee and the girls.
Absolutely needs a lot of help for a long time.
Not only for her own ordeal, but to cope for her children too. :)
double whammy.
God Bless JC and her girls. :praying: And her Mom too.

[Missizzy]

Nobody2--Actually we've been told to thank our lucky stars that the rapist got 10 years. He was a teen and was held until he turned 25. He's a lifetime RSO but never accepted any treatment. He has no post-prison supervision as he did his time. He lives in a mid-size Oregon city one block from a park. Yes, you read that right. And I imagine it drives you just as nuts as it does me. Oregon has no "boundary" laws. We're thankful that he didn't return to our town but we worry terribly about other children.

I know in my heart that this man will offend again. I cannot open a newspaper or check the internet without looking for his name. That is a fact that I can't do a thing about. Once a person has done his time, they're done. There's no civil commitment nor "predatory" label for those who offended before age 18. I know our local LE watch for him but he chose to live in another city. Hopefully, LE has talked to each other in our case. Sadly, they sure as heck didn't in Jaycee's.

I don't think Jaycee or her girls have to worry about PG or NG getting out, though. Let's hope not!!