The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992

[Missouri Mule]

If I get this correctly, there are two scenarios: the trio or someone who knew the women/woman.

What do the infamous trio have to lose? Are all of them jailed or now walking the streets? Could a deal could be cut in exchange for a confession?

If the perp was someone the women knew, this probably translates to local, especially a burial of three women. How could anyone get away with hiding bodies of three individuals? Weren't their purses still there? Would someone raping three women keep them for several days? Very strange.

That is correct. I can categorically state that at least one of the trio's whereabouts is known to the police. I cannot, however, confirm the whereabouts of the the two remaining individuals. Your question about cutting a deal is one I have posed several times myself. There is some reason to believe such a deal was in the making until one individual backed out of an agreement, possibly on advice of his attorney.

I do not believe any remains of the women will be found having been destroyed long ago.

It does sound strange until one knows the pertinent facts then it becomes not so strange after all. That is why it is important to look to the facts. The difficulty is knowing what the facts are and which is why I referred others to pursue available information in the written reports at the time. Interested people should get their own information devoid of my personal opinions and views. As I have said the police and prosecutor refuse to discuss the case. Anything going to them is a version of the "black hole." Nothing ever comes back out.

[Trino]

So, if cutting a deal was in the works, there is an assumption of guilt. Do you have any info as to ages of these men, i.e. would one of them have a conscience to unload? Usually, as people age, they no longer "hang together." Maybe one of them would be willing to deal, especially the jailbird.

[Missouri Mule]

So, if cutting a deal was in the works, there is an assumption of guilt. Do you have any info as to ages of these men, i.e. would one of them have a conscience to unload? Usually, as people age, they no longer "hang together." Maybe one of them would be willing to deal, especially the jailbird.

Yes to the first question, if such a deal was in the works, which I cannot positively and absolutely confirm. As to a "conscience", I doubt it. I think any deal would rest with the prosecutor. He would have to be willing to do it and from what I gather is unwilling to do so. Offhand, I don't know what deal he would offer that would be acceptable to either party. It would be a "lose-lose" situation regardless. I want to be perfectly clear that to my knowledge no public pronouncements have ever been made that any deal was ever in the works. And I have no first hand knowledge nor sources that can confirm it. I believe it to be true but I would not bet the farm.

I want to reiterate, however, that not all police investigators reportedly agree with this finding. The answers would have to be found with the lead detective who would have this information but he is not talking. I believe I have been reliably informed that would be Sgt. Mike Owen. He is also the one who provided the interview to KY-3 about a year ago. Essentially he said nothing new or revealing.

As an aside, one of these former investigators is reportedly running for sheriff in the next election for that office. Perhaps he will speak out on the subject. And I have heard the prosecutor may not run again but I cannot confirm that.

[Trino]

As an aside, one of these former investigators is reportedly running for sheriff in the next election for that office. Perhaps he will speak out on the subject. And I have heard the prosecutor may not run again but I cannot confirm that.

Are these two things positive?

[Missouri Mule]

Are these two things positive?

Hard to say. I would say that a new prosecutor would be the better of the two options. The new sheriff, if he is elected, (I don't know if the current one is running for reelection) would be in a position to influence the investigation since he was very much involved in the investigation at the time it was happening. I have heard he was very critical of the leadership of the department but can't confirm it as a fact. I have a high level of confidence in him but have no particular animus toward the current sheriff. I've never been a big fan of the current prosecutor, however.

I would add this caveat. I am a long way from Springfield and can only go on what is passed along to me by acquaintances who still live there. I no longer have access to the local telecasts and newspaper accounts. Perhaps someone who currently lives there can bring us up to speed. I'm not the best source for this information.

[Hurricane]

Missouri Mule; I have been following this case and I respect you for you work on the case. I have followed this case on the net and believe it should have been solved but now, it may never be.

I want to call you on your point, puntuated by the Rumsfeld "caveat" that LE probably knows who did it but can't make the case because of lack of evidence. You will recall that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Lack of evidence was quite significant. In this case, The "prime suspect" was a hard core perp named Gerald Carnahan. He and a couple of cronies were called before a federal grand jury. He's a great suspect but that "absence of evidence" bugaboo keeps stumping the FBI and the Springfield PD's best efforts. I wonder if "tunnel vision" interfered with the investigation.

I have no idea who did it but I have a few observations:
The fact that the bodies were "disappeared" suggest there is some conection between perp and victim. The lack of forced entry reinforces this.
The fact that the victims' vehicles were not used sugests only one perp. If there were more than one perp, this would indicate inexperience or carlessness.
The fact that the two younger victims were not supposed to be there that night creates a real wild cards. Was the perp surprised when the girls showed up or did he wait until after 2:30 AM to make his move? I find it hard to believe anyone would have knocked on the door that late on any pretense unless he were know and trusted by the family. On the other hand, targeting the mom seems improbable unless there was something going on that has not reached the press.
My only contribution is to suggest that whoever did this has some connection to the family. I am not aware that Gerald Carnahan or any of the named suspects did.

The basic scientific method is to let the evidence lead to the solution/conclusion. "Guessing" at the solution/conclusion and looking for the evidence to back it up is a short cut that sometimes works but often leads to a dead end.

By he way, The prime Zodiac suspect, (Allen) as identified by a major crime writer, has gereraly been dismissed as a suspect; again that "absence of evidence" issue.

Kemo,
Could you extropilate on a couple of your comments. I’m interested in your line of thought here:
The fact that the bodies were "disappeared" suggest there is some conection between perp and victim. The lack of forced entry reinforces this.

The fact that the victims' vehicles were not used sugests only one perp. If there were more than one perp, this would indicate inexperience or carlessness.

And I agree with your opinion on ALA not being the Zodiac. As ALA said himself in his most creepy way, “I am most certainly…..not the Zodiac.” No evidence has ever stood the test of time.

[kemo]

Hurricane,
Going to a great deal of effort to conceal a body is a tip off that there is a conection betwqeen perp and victim. The many cases I've read about seem to support this. Particularly if the perp is male and the victim female. I believe I read this in one of the "profiler books"; perhaps John Douglas. This makes sense since anyone who knows they will be an obvious suspect will take measures avoid leaving evidence. Strangers want to avoid becoming suspects so they tend to get away from the crime scene and body ASAP. There may also be a "Psycological" explaination. Known-to-the -victim perps also tend to cover bodies or arrange them in "comfortable" positions.

Using the victim's vehicle to dispose of the body is a frequently used ploy to concele exactly where the crime occured and delay the recognition that a crime has occured at all. It also avoids contaminating the perp's car with foresic evidence. This case seemed particularly suited to this ploy. The only reasons I can see that the perp didn't use it is: 1) he just didn't think of it or 2) only one driver (and the perp didn't want to leave his car at the scene).

This is just my spin on the situation based on the facts I have.

ALSO: The house was apparently found in good order with no usable foresic evidence. Does anyone know to what extent the house was cleaned up after the "crime"? I'm wondering if the crime scene suggests that no violence and no rape occured in the house.

[Hurricane]

Hurricane,
Going to a great deal of effort to conceal a body is a tip off that there is a conection betwqeen perp and victim. The many cases I've read about seem to support this. Particularly if the perp is male and the victim female. I believe I read this in one of the "profiler books"; perhaps John Douglas. This makes sense since anyone who knows they will be an obvious suspect will take measures avoid leaving evidence. Strangers want to avoid becoming suspects so they tend to get away from the crime scene and body ASAP. There may also be a "Psycological" explaination. Known-to-the -victim perps also tend to cover bodies or arrange them in "comfortable" positions.

Using the victim's vehicle to dispose of the body is a frequently used ploy to concele exactly where the crime occured and delay the recognition that a crime has occured at all. It also avoids contaminating the perp's car with foresic evidence. This case seemed particularly suited to this ploy. The only reasons I can see that the perp didn't use it is: 1) he just didn't think of it or 2) only one driver (and the perp didn't want to leave his car at the scene).

This is just my spin on the situation based on the facts I have.

ALSO: The house was apparently found in good order with no usable foresic evidence. Does anyone know to what extent the house was cleaned up after the "crime"? I'm wondering if the crime scene suggests that no violence and no rape occured in the house.


Kemo,

Thanks for your reply. I’m familiar with the books of John Douglas although it has been some time since I read them. I thought you might see some evidence in this case to support your comments, which I want to address. But first I want to give my answer to your question concerning the condition of the house as a crime scene.

The idea that the house was cleaned or scrubbed of prints and other forensic evidence is based from rumors and is false. Eighteen individuals, friends and family, entered the house at various times during the day on Sunday. The idea that the house had been cleaned probably originated from news accounts such as this:

“They (friends & family) went into Levitt’s home Sunday and may have inadvertently cleaned up potential evidence.” News-Leader, June 10, 1992.

SPD Glenn later tried to correct the impression that the above quote gave when he said the following, during a press conference:

“The part in here about ‘cleaned up everything’ is actually an inaccurate statement. We never intended for the public to think that these individuals went into the home and physically cleaned up the home. Now there was obviously a large number of objects moved around inside the home, displaced from the original positions that they were left in, but in no manner did they clean, as is commonly associated with cleaning up a home.” News-Leader, July 12, 1992.

There were sixty individual prints found in the house. As far as I know, it is not publicly known how many individuals these sixty prints would represent. But regardless, I believe that the forensics investigation was botched. Finger print samples to be used for comparison against the sixty individual prints found in the house were only taken from some of the eighteen people who were in the house that Sunday, not all. (source: News-Leader, June 10, 1992). Nothing was apparently done to eliminate the prints of those who may have been in the house previously. I have spoken to more than one person who was in the house many times and whose prints would rightfully be in the house, but they were never asked by SPD for their prints for comparison and elimination. Or hair, either.

But in defense of SPD, maybe their forensics investigation was better than what is publicly known:

“Laboratory evidence has not provided any leads that police are sharing with the media. Much evidence remains to be tested, Glenn said. It may be some time before technicians from the police department, the Missouri State Highway patrol and the FBI are finished with tests.” News-Leader, June 17, 1992.

That’s a lot of testing!

As far as the abductors cleaning up, why bother when you can wear gloves?

[Hurricane]

Hurricane,
Going to a great deal of effort to conceal a body is a tip off that there is a conection betwqeen perp and victim. The many cases I've read about seem to support this. Particularly if the perp is male and the victim female. I believe I read this in one of the "profiler books"; perhaps John Douglas. This makes sense since anyone who knows they will be an obvious suspect will take measures avoid leaving evidence. Strangers want to avoid becoming suspects so they tend to get away from the crime scene and body ASAP. There may also be a "Psycological" explaination. Known-to-the -victim perps also tend to cover bodies or arrange them in "comfortable" positions.

Using the victim's vehicle to dispose of the body is a frequently used ploy to concele exactly where the crime occured and delay the recognition that a crime has occured at all. It also avoids contaminating the perp's car with foresic evidence. This case seemed particularly suited to this ploy. The only reasons I can see that the perp didn't use it is: 1) he just didn't think of it or 2) only one driver (and the perp didn't want to leave his car at the scene).


Kemo,

I believe that all three women were alive when they were taken from the house:

“Police have found thumb prints and concluded the three women left through the front door rather than through the carport door of Levitt’s home. They also have concluded McCall left barefooted. Police believe more than one person participated in the alleged abduction.” News-Leader, July 8, 1992.

I think this is also supported by the condition of the house as a crime scene. I believe that the abductors were already inside the house when the two girls came home unexpectedly. If the girls had not showed up Sherrill might have been raped (if that was not part of the plan originally), probably severely beaten and threatened not to talk, but left alive. When the situation suddenly changed and the abductors found themselves with three females they needed to get them under control quickly. And the easiest way to do that was to get them into the van and out of the area before daylight. And if rape was a part of their plan, now they would need time and a different location to carry that out, times three.

Whether it was by their design or by happenstance, the fact that all three of the women’s cars were there, the house was unlocked, purses and cigarettes were there, TV left on, and the dog in the house gave the impression that the women were somewhere nearby and postponed establishing the house as a crime scene for about 24 hours.

[Missouri Mule]

I concur completely with Hurricane's conclusions.

[kemo]

The more I learn about this case the stranger it gets. I have always assumed it was a lust/rape type caper with some very unusual elements.

I agree that the perp(s) was in the house when the girls arrived but the girls cleaned up and got ready for bed before anything happened. I find it hard to believe that multiple perps would keep Sherril quiet in her bedroom that long. Perhaps she was already dead? I agree the girls left the house alive. An abduction rape, particulaly from a safe place such as the victim's home is rare since it is pretty high risk. A lot can go wrong. This crime required planning, a cool hand and a lot of luck.

I stand by my belief that it was only one perp. If only two women were expected and they could be delt with one at a time, one man should be enough. If it was only one perp, he was pretty competent and probably well armed. He didn't loss his head when two girls showed up.

The most common means of abducting a woman for rape would be when they were getting in or out of a car alone at a place and time when no one else would be around. I wonder why the perp)s didn't go that route? Possibly Suzie was a very specific victim the perp wanted. Perhaps both women were targeted? This suggests the perp(s) knew them.

The above is based on the the assumption that this was a lust/rape crime. Its hard to imagine any other motive for such a low risk trio. If there was some drug connection or witness/informant issues, this would raise a whole new avenue to pursue. I read that Sherril's ex was cleared but how solid was it? An ex musts always be looked at carefully; particually if he didn't get along with the daughter. Susie was involved as a witness in some rinky-dink "grave robbery" This angle was dismissed as hardly worthy of a triple murder. People have killed for less; it's just that those who do aren't usually capable of pulling this sort of thing off.

Mule, you hinted at one time that there was some sort of possible "witness" exposure but you seemed to drop it. Is there anything to it?

[Missouri Mule]

The more I learn about this case the stranger it gets. I have always assumed it was a lust/rape type caper with some very unusual elements.

I agree that the perp(s) was in the house when the girls arrived but the girls cleaned up and got ready for bed before anything happened. I find it hard to believe that multiple perps would keep Sherril quiet in her bedroom that long. Perhaps she was already dead? I agree the girls left the house alive. An abduction rape, particulaly from a safe place such as the victim's home is rare since it is pretty high risk. A lot can go wrong. This crime required planning, a cool hand and a lot of luck.

I stand by my belief that it was only one perp. If only two women were expected and they could be delt with one at a time, one man should be enough. If it was only one perp, he was pretty competent and probably well armed. He didn't loss his head when two girls showed up.

The most common means of abducting a woman for rape would be when they were getting in or out of a car alone at a place and time when no one else would be around. I wonder why the perp)s didn't go that route? Possibly Suzie was a very specific victim the perp wanted. Perhaps both women were targeted? This suggests the perp(s) knew them.

The above is based on the the assumption that this was a lust/rape crime. Its hard to imagine any other motive for such a low risk trio. If there was some drug connection or witness/informant issues, this would raise a whole new avenue to pursue. I read that Sherril's ex was cleared but how solid was it? An ex musts always be looked at carefully; particually if he didn't get along with the daughter. Susie was involved as a witness in some rinky-dink "grave robbery" This angle was dismissed as hardly worthy of a triple murder. People have killed for less; it's just that those who do aren't usually capable of pulling this sort of thing off.

Mule, you hinted at one time that there was some sort of possible "witness" exposure but you seemed to drop it. Is there anything to it?

The only credible witness I know of is the lady who saw the van turn around (most likely on Grand Street.) Refresh my memory. What exactly did I say?

Sherrill's ex-husbands had nothing to do with this crime. Instead look to the facts.

I would be extremely surprised if a single perp carried out this crime. I would also be very surprised if any of the girls were the targets although I would not rule out the mother if in fact this was a planned crime. I would not jump to that conclusion. And I would not assume that the home was in particularly neat and organized as is commonly believed. Again look to the facts. That is why it will be necessary for anyone attempting to understand this case will need to review the entire written record of public knowledge. There was some specific and categorical information that was conveyed to the public, but obviously not all the information that was held back as is common in all such cases.

[kemo]

Mule, on 2/18/07 you wrote: "But some new facts are emerging that appear to point to a motive to the case and it is indirectly related to the grave robbing incident that preceded their disappearance. Amazing what a little digging around and common sense will turn up. Now if the SPD take an interest in this case it might yet be solved. It does in fact appear to be drug related but not in the way one might expect." You later went on to suggest the the "grave robbing" was "the tip of the iceberg" of a big time drug operation and the guy Suzie was to testify against had some high value info. Without Suzie's testimony, thet guy got only wrist slap and LE had no leverage to get him to turn.

The fact that someone who vanishes and is presumed dead was scheduled to testify at a criminal trial should have set off all kinds of bell and whistles. I would think this connection would have been gone over completely before the investigation went anywhere else. You batted this theme around a bit and hinted a inside info (perhaps you SPD source) then you sort oif dropped it.

Is there anything to this angle? I recall one of the Springfield Paper stories quoted a SPD source that the "grave robber" was ruled out.

[Ken]

Although the media reported that Sherrill had painted a chest of drawers; they didn't report how badly the house stunk. The house had a potent varnish smell to it. That is a fact and it comes from a high ranking official.

I would imagine that it wouldn't be easy trying to fall asleep with a potent varnish smell throughout the house.

In the Black Dahlia Case from 1947, Elizabeth Short's body was found in Los Angeles not too far from the desert. The perp could have easily buried her body in the desert where nobody would have ever found her. But he didn't. He wanted her body to be found because; 1) he strongly believed he wouldn't get caught and/or be connected to the crime scene. 2) he wanted everyone to see what he had done.

It's an interesting contrast to this case...

[Missouri Mule]

Mule, on 2/18/07 you wrote: "But some new facts are emerging that appear to point to a motive to the case and it is indirectly related to the grave robbing incident that preceded their disappearance. Amazing what a little digging around and common sense will turn up. Now if the SPD take an interest in this case it might yet be solved. It does in fact appear to be drug related but not in the way one might expect." You later went on to suggest the the "grave robbing" was "the tip of the iceberg" of a big time drug operation and the guy Suzie was to testify against had some high value info. Without Suzie's testimony, thet guy got only wrist slap and LE had no leverage to get him to turn.

The fact that someone who vanishes and is presumed dead was scheduled to testify at a criminal trial should have set off all kinds of bell and whistles. I would think this connection would have been gone over completely before the investigation went anywhere else. You batted this theme around a bit and hinted a inside info (perhaps you SPD source) then you sort oif dropped it.

Is there anything to this angle? I recall one of the Springfield Paper stories quoted a SPD source that the "grave robber" was ruled out.

As I said, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since I first started opining on this subject. It was always my impression that there were two possibilities that jumped to mind and I had theories of each. Then I would learn new information and that changed the dynamics and painted a different picture than I first imagined.

Recently a different line of thinking has emerged that is based on known facts and I received some private communication that I did not previously have at my disposal. With the information that is known plus other new information it was decided to consider that the case was actually solved long ago but that the physical evidence was insufficient to bring indictments. I can't prove anything to a certainty because I do not have access to grand jury information but it is possible to extrapolate from what is published. That's where I and others are at this point in time. In my opinion this is the most likely and logical scenario and it is not based on speculation and unprovable theories.

Having said this one cannot absolutely rule out the other theories either. The problem as always is that no information is being provided by the people who count; the Springfield Police Department.

[pittsburghgirl]

I got so behind on this thread. (My mother got sick right after I moved.) There is almost too much to take in. Missouri Mule and Hurricane, your knowledge and analysis are impressive.

So where are we? The whole grand jury thing is very important. The cliche is that a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, and we have seen no indictments. That might not mean that the prosecutor did a bad job: maybe a witness recanted or maybe the prosecutor used the grand jury to go fishing, or to try to drive a wedge between the suspects. It's frustrating that grand jury stuff is so secret.

Since Missouri Mule is trying out the "outsider killer" scenario, let me follow him. I have always thought that there were 2 or 3 people involved, mostly because the BTK types that like multiple victims are pretty rare. But think about the case in Florida where the predator lured a woman and two of her daughters out on a boat and killed them all. So it's possible. That scenario also suggests what such a specialist would need--a big ocean where he knows he will not be interrupted and he can get rid of the bodies easily. Even so, the fact that we know where and how those people were killed suggests the enormity of the task. Thus, I am sticking with 2 or 3 perpetrators.

Then there is the matter of whether or not at least one of the perpetrators was known to the victims to the extent that he could gain access with a knock at the door--or just walk in, as family and friends often do. The scenario of a house in good order, the dog left behind, the tv on, etc. seemed to suggest that there wasn't a big struggle, etc. The other end of the string has to do with why (if the woman were assaulted and killed) they weren't left in the house.

If the predators were career criminals, leaving the bodies (with all of the forensic evidence) would be like a robber writing the bank robbery note on his deposit slip. Even pre-DNA, semen and hair and fingerprints could show more that one perpetrator at work. Three sets of clothes, three sets of sheets, the rugs, the bodies...there wasn't the time to do all that and clean it up to leave little or nothing behind. So if rape and murder were the motives, the safest thing is to abduct the victims while they can walk out the door on their own and take them to a place where those things can be done without as much risk. Enter the van, which can carry 6 people easily. Or 4, if Sherrill was the original intended victim.

Even a certified moron would also have to know that the rape/murders of 3 woman, two of whom had JUST THAT DAY graduated from high school would raise a veritable ****storm in a town the size of Springfield. In the mid 70s, when Pittsburgh was a larger city than it is now, there was a string of shotgun murders, where a man would be shot and his female partner abducted. One woman's body was found; others were not. These murders/abductions were one right after the other and people were terrified. My point is that if an "insider" would get the women out of the house to avoid being linked to their murders, an "outsider" might do that to stir up doubt about where the woman are. A smart predator might leave the purses to stage the scene; a smarter one would leave them because having them in his possession is riskier than leaving them. At some point, he would have to get rid of that stuff if he took it. The more the predators handle, the more risk they take. The scenario would also explain why Stacy would be barefoot--they knew she wouldn't need her shoes and the less they took out of the house, the better.

The question of timing still bothers me; we had speculated before that one of the perpetrators was in the house when Suzie and Stacy arrived. Where are we with that idea?

My last thought is that we might be able to get most of the newspaper stuff from online archives, although that will cost a few dollars. I can't get to that this week, but I will try over the next weekend.

Consider, too, why the police might have clammed up if they suspected early on that 3 nutjobs had abducted these women.

[Missouri Mule]

I got so behind on this thread. (My mother got sick right after I moved.) There is almost too much to take in. Missouri Mule and Hurricane, your knowledge and analysis are impressive.

So where are we? The whole grand jury thing is very important. The cliche is that a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, and we have seen no indictments. That might not mean that the prosecutor did a bad job: maybe a witness recanted or maybe the prosecutor used the grand jury to go fishing, or to try to drive a wedge between the suspects. It's frustrating that grand jury stuff is so secret.

Since Missouri Mule is trying out the "outsider killer" scenario, let me follow him. I have always thought that there were 2 or 3 people involved, mostly because the BTK types that like multiple victims are pretty rare. But think about the case in Florida where the predator lured a woman and two of her daughters out on a boat and killed them all. So it's possible. That scenario also suggests what such a specialist would need--a big ocean where he knows he will not be interrupted and he can get rid of the bodies easily. Even so, the fact that we know where and how those people were killed suggests the enormity of the task. Thus, I am sticking with 2 or 3 perpetrators.

Then there is the matter of whether or not at least one of the perpetrators was known to the victims to the extent that he could gain access with a knock at the door--or just walk in, as family and friends often do. The scenario of a house in good order, the dog left behind, the tv on, etc. seemed to suggest that there wasn't a big struggle, etc. The other end of the string has to do with why (if the woman were assaulted and killed) they weren't left in the house.

If the predators were career criminals, leaving the bodies (with all of the forensic evidence) would be like a robber writing the bank robbery note on his deposit slip. Even pre-DNA, semen and hair and fingerprints could show more that one perpetrator at work. Three sets of clothes, three sets of sheets, the rugs, the bodies...there wasn't the time to do all that and clean it up to leave little or nothing behind. So if rape and murder were the motives, the safest thing is to abduct the victims while they can walk out the door on their own and take them to a place where those things can be done without as much risk. Enter the van, which can carry 6 people easily. Or 4, if Sherrill was the original intended victim.

Even a certified moron would also have to know that the rape/murders of 3 woman, two of whom had JUST THAT DAY graduated from high school would raise a veritable ****storm in a town the size of Springfield. In the mid 70s, when Pittsburgh was a larger city than it is now, there was a string of shotgun murders, where a man would be shot and his female partner abducted. One woman's body was found; others were not. These murders/abductions were one right after the other and people were terrified. My point is that if an "insider" would get the women out of the house to avoid being linked to their murders, an "outsider" might do that to stir up doubt about where the woman are. A smart predator might leave the purses to stage the scene; a smarter one would leave them because having them in his possession is riskier than leaving them. At some point, he would have to get rid of that stuff if he took it. The more the predators handle, the more risk they take. The scenario would also explain why Stacy would be barefoot--they knew she wouldn't need her shoes and the less they took out of the house, the better.

The question of timing still bothers me; we had speculated before that one of the perpetrators was in the house when Suzie and Stacy arrived. Where are we with that idea?

My last thought is that we might be able to get most of the newspaper stuff from online archives, although that will cost a few dollars. I can't get to that this week, but I will try over the next weekend.

Consider, too, why the police might have clammed up if they suspected early on that 3 nutjobs had abducted these women.

As a preface, I must say that I will be unable to respond for several weeks due to a medical condition and I must necessarily be brief. Let me, however, attempt to point in the what is believed to be the right direction.

1) I believe that entry was gained from somewhere other than the front door.

2) I believe that exit certainly came from the front door at which time the globe was hit and fell to the porch breaking and the bulb was unbroken. There was about 3/8 inch clearance for the globe to fall clear of the bulb.

3) I believe that the police have the glass shards but that they are of no particular consequence. They merely said that they would have liked to have seen them on the porch as that "would have told them things." I think that is largely a red herring.

4) I believe the women were abducted by a minimum of two and perhaps three perpetrators.

5) I believe that the perpetrators were inside the home at the time the young women arrived home that night.

6) I believe that the operation became an "ad hoc" operation at the time the young women arrived at which time it was determined they would have to be taken from the home in order to eliminate witnesses from the crime that was the intended purpose that night.

7) I believe that the van was a Dodge A108 long bed van that was painted moss green or light gray that had rear windows painted over to conceal the occupants inside.

8) I believe that the van was seen by a lady on east Grand Street somewhere about 6:30 AM that morning and it turned around because Grand Street did not exit out of town. It turned around to go back to Oak Grove where it went north to Cherry Street that did go out of Springfield and most likely to the Rogersville/Northview area.

9) I believe that the perpetrators knew where they could find a fellow traveler or a "safe house" where a decision could be made on what to do with the women. It was there I believe that the women were murdered and when their bodies were destroyed or otherwise disposed of.

10) The police know all of this and this is the nature of the GJ investigation but which produced no physical evidence with which to produce an indictment.

11) Having said all of this, it may not be what happened at all. In point of fact, reliable sources have indicated at least three former or current police officers believe differently. All we have are theories and available published information. Definitive and provable information we do not have because the Springfield Police Department chooses not to discuss the case. In fact, I have been told by a reliable source that they "refuse" to discuss the case.

Make of this what you will. Read the newspapers; the Springfield News-Leader (hard copy in the library) and the Kansas City Star which archived their stories on this case. See if you agree or disagree. Then you will know what I know (or don't know) and can make up your own mind.

[Trino]

MM, your elusiveness intrigues me. I've encountered what I believe to be your posts on another site - same elusiveness.

I agree that it's very possible the abductor(s) was/were in the house when the two younger women arrived. However, why were they there to see the mother and so late? It obviously wasn't for money. If they intended to rape her, I think they would have done it there - agree with your ad hoc theory. What was the reputation of the mother?

Where would a "safe" house have been? Did they have friends living in the community?

[Hurricane]

MM, your elusiveness intrigues me. I've encountered what I believe to be your posts on another site - same elusiveness.

I agree that it's very possible the abductor(s) was/were in the house when the two younger women arrived. However, why were they there to see the mother and so late? It obviously wasn't for money. If they intended to rape her, I think they would have done it there - agree with your ad hoc theory. What was the reputation of the mother?

Where would a "safe" house have been? Did they have friends living in the community?

Just as a reminder, Missouri Mule has said that he will be offline and unable to comment for a few weeks.

My suggestion is to think about and research what might have been the original intended crime here. Was it possibly rape and or abduction of Sherrill Levitt? I don't think so. Was the abduction and probable rape of the three women a result of the situation as it presented itself? I think probably so. The abduction most likely occurred to control three witnesses to the original crime and the identity of the perps.

After fifteen years of rumors and a thorough check by SPD into the background of Sherrill Levitt, there is no reason to question her reputation. There has never been any evidence found in support of the various rumors, yet they persist. I might add that the same holds true for the two girls as well.

[gaia227]

Wow, this is so interesting! I grew up in Springfield, MO and was twelve when the women went missing. It was huge news at the time and we all that it was just a matter of time before the case was solved. I haven't had time to read through the whole thread yet but I will. I live in New York City now but spent my first 25 years in Springfield and am very familar with the city and the surrounding area so I would be more than happy to try and answer any questions about the region that could possibly help you guys out. I see MissouriMule here so perhaps he/she is from the area - like I said, I haven't read through the whole thread yet.
Keep up the awesome investigative work!

[Cambria]

I know there are people who think the perp or perps were already in the house and possibly had Sherrill subdued when Suzie and Stacy got home from the graduation parties. Kemo brought up the very interesting point that maybe Sherrill was already dead when the girls got home. I had never thought of that before. But after reading many news articles from the Springfield News-Leader and the Kansas City Star, I have always leaned toward the thought that the abductor (s) were either somehow hiding inside or outside or lurking about in the van waiting until the girls got there before making their entrance into the home. One thing that has always stuck with me after reading some of the things that were said about Sherrill is that she was a very good mother. She also apparently was a chain smoker and somewhat high-strung, and worried about her children. The papers said there was a book turned over in Sherrill's bed, as if she had been in bed reading, and also that there was evidence that Suzie and Stacy washed up before going to bed. To me that has always suggested the scenario that Sherrill was in bed reading and knew the girls were coming home so waited up for them. There probably was communication between the 3 of them after the girls got to the house. I also read (or I think Missouri Mule mentioned it once) that there were several phone calls made to and from 1717 E. Delmar that night. I am almost positive that Suzie spoke with her mother to keep her updated as to where she was and also to let her know that Stacy was coming home with her. But like I said, I can't remember if I read that in the papers about the phone calls or if Missouri Mule had mentioned it so I can't produce any proof of that right now. It's a shame that the Springfield News-Leader newspaper archives only go back to 1999. So I honestly don't know what to believe for sure about when the perp (s) entered the house but I really believe there was some communication between all 3 women when Suzie and Stacy got to the house and before the abductions occurred.

Too bad Missouri Mule will be out of commission for several weeks now that this thread has heated up again. I do trust his opinions on the case since he lived in Springfield at the time of the abductions and still has contacts there.

[Teresa Larson]

[quote=liz325;1899168]I know there are people who think the perp or perps were already in the house and possibly had Sherrill subdued when Suzie and Stacy got home from the graduation parties. Kemo brought up the very interesting point that maybe Sherrill was already dead when the girls got home. I had never thought of that before. But after reading many news articles from the Springfield News-Leader and the Kansas City Star, I have always leaned toward the thought that the abductor (s) were either somehow hiding inside or outside or lurking about in the van waiting until the girls got there before making their entrance into the home.


How would the abductor(s) have known the girls were coming back there after the parties. Maybe somebody followed them home? IMO the abductor was somebody they knew.

[MeoW333]

Did the grave robbery Susie witness involve smuggling drugs in caskets or inside corpses?

[Cambria]

[quote=liz325;1899168]I know there are people who think the perp or perps were already in the house and possibly had Sherrill subdued when Suzie and Stacy got home from the graduation parties. Kemo brought up the very interesting point that maybe Sherrill was already dead when the girls got home. I had never thought of that before. But after reading many news articles from the Springfield News-Leader and the Kansas City Star, I have always leaned toward the thought that the abductor (s) were either somehow hiding inside or outside or lurking about in the van waiting until the girls got there before making their entrance into the home.


How would the abductor(s) have known the girls were coming back there after the parties. Maybe somebody followed them home? IMO the abductor was somebody they knew.

I have always felt that someone they knew was involved in this, either directly or indirectly. By indirectly, I mean somebody who knew Sherrill and Suzie could have given info to the perp (s) that Sherrill would be alone this night for a while but that Suzie probably would be coming home very late.

According to published reports, there was a van that was seen in the area driving by the house for several weeks before the abductions. It was no longer seen after the abductions occurred. The perp (s) could have been watching the house, waiting for the right moment. Maybe Sherrill was the lone target and Suzie did surprise them by coming home when she did. Then again, maybe whoever did this knew Suzie would be coming home late and they waited. And, as I think everyone believes, no one who was involved in this figured on poor Stacy being there at all. Remember, it was just at the last minute that Stacy decided to stay at Suzie's house because the house she was going to spend the night at was already full.

Some people believe the perp or at least one of the perps was hiding in the house and anyone else who was involved in this was in the van. That is certainly possible. And some people also think that this was not something that was planned, but just a robbery gone wrong.

There are many scenarios that could fit but the one I lean towards the most is that they were targeted, someone they knew was involved and entry wasn't made into the house until after everyone was there.

[gaia227]

Regarding entry into the house: Has this theory been discussed? The perps gained entrance by using the dog. Perhaps they had been watching the house for a few nights to get a feel for Sherrill's routine and she let the dog out everynight to go to the bathroom before bed. So on June 2nd she let the dog out to use the bathroom - the perp(s) snatches it out of the backyard and then knocks on the door holding the dog. Seeing her dog, she opens the door and the perp tells her he was walking and saw her dog running down the sidewalk - it must have gotten out somehow. Sherrill is preoccupied now with the idea her dog got out and perhaps in her gratitude and surprise her defenses are down. When the perp goes to hand her the dog that is when he takes the opportunity to bulldoze his way in. He would of had to be holding the dog up until the point of entry because that was his control - once he turned the dog over she could just slam the door in his face.
This seems like a logical explanation as to the unforced entry into the home. Anyone heard this one before?

Comment: I find it very intriguing the AMW call came in from Florida and that just so happens to be where Bartt lives.

[Trino]

I just can't help but feel that either the house was being watched or the girls were being watched. "Watched" could mean either just that night or for days.

Questions remain as to WHY the abduction occurred and WHY all three?

[Teresa Larson]

I just can't help but feel that either the house was being watched or the girls were being watched. "Watched" could mean either just that night or for days.

Questions remain as to WHY the abduction occurred and WHY all three?

I would guess that all 3 of them disappeared because one or all of them witnessed something. The girls could have walked in on something happening to the mother and they had to kill them too. We really don't know what kind of a person she was. There are a lot of people that have secrets in their lives...sides that families and friends don't know about. I have no doubt somebody around the area or close to one of the 3 knows exactly what happened to them. If I recall correctly there was no sign of forced entry. ? Which also leads me to believe it was somebody the mother knew.

[Missouri Mule]

This will be very brief. Look at the GJ situation. Work from there. Back in February sometime. Later.

[Teresa Larson]

This will be very brief. Look at the GJ situation. Work from there. Back in February sometime. Later.

?? Am I missing something here??

[Cambria]

?? Am I missing something here??


Missouri Mule had some sort of medical problem and won't be able to post on this for a while. I think he means to go back and read newspaper accounts regarding the grand jury. Apparently the grand jury had 3 suspects they were looking at back in '92 or '93. There wasn't enough evidence against them so they never were indicted. MM will be back sometime in February. I'm guessing that is what he meant by his post.

[Missouri Mule]

Missouri Mule had some sort of medical problem and won't be able to post on this for a while. I think he means to go back and read newspaper accounts regarding the grand jury. Apparently the grand jury had 3 suspects they were looking at back in '92 or '93. There wasn't enough evidence against them so they never were indicted. MM will be back sometime in February. I'm guessing that is what he meant by his post.

Thanks,

That's correct. I have had eye surgery and can't look up but briefly.

I recommend ruling out GJ matter before moving to other theories. That would be much more productive use of time in my view.

For the record I view most, if not all. of the rumors about the victims as groundless.

Hopefully I can comment more in February.

[gaia227]

Hmmm, I cannot help but feel a little ignored on this thread. I have posted twice and no one has even acknowledged my presence. I have not received that type of reception on other threads, usually people are very friendly and welcome me and at least respond in some fashion. There is nothing more annoying than taking the time to type out a thoughtful inquiry or theory only to have no one even acknowledge it. I even offered my help since I am from Springfield and my entire family lives there. I realize that this is an involved thread and there are consistently the same posters and I doubt it is even something that is being done on purpose. I would just like to encourage people to have an open mind and when you see a new name or see that this person has not been a member very long don't automatically dismiss them. I am very active on other message boards, which is how I came to find this one, and I find myself doing that very same thing; overlooking someone because they are new to the board because I am in search of looking for the 'regulars' and there have been many times i was surprised when I did read what they had to say. Fresh eyes are sometimes the best. I am not complaining, nor are my feelings hurt. It is just something I would like to point out. Somtimes people don't realize these things until another points it out.
Thank you for reading. Take Care. MM I hope your surgery went okay and the healing process is a hasty one.

[Cambria]

Hmmm, I cannot help but feel a little ignored on this thread. I have posted twice and no one has even acknowledged my presence. I have not received that type of reception on other threads, usually people are very friendly and welcome me and at least respond in some fashion. There is nothing more annoying than taking the time to type out a thoughtful inquiry or theory only to have no one even acknowledge it. I even offered my help since I am from Springfield and my entire family lives there. I realize that this is an involved thread and there are consistently the same posters and I doubt it is even something that is being done on purpose. I would just like to encourage people to have an open mind and when you see a new name or see that this person has not been a member very long don't automatically dismiss them. I am very active on other message boards, which is how I came to find this one, and I find myself doing that very same thing; overlooking someone because they are new to the board because I am in search of looking for the 'regulars' and there have been many times i was surprised when I did read what they had to say. Fresh eyes are sometimes the best. I am not complaining, nor are my feelings hurt. It is just something I would like to point out. Somtimes people don't realize these things until another points it out.
Thank you for reading. Take Care. MM I hope your surgery went okay and the healing process is a hasty one.

Gaia, I'm sorry you feel that way. I PM'd you with a few thoughts on your posting. As far as answering your questions, I usually defer all questions on here to Missouri Mule since he lived in Springfield at the time of the abductions. He worked in an investigative capacity (not law enforcement) for over 30 years. He has been looking into this since it happened and as you can see, I live in Ohio, no where near Missouri. He is very good about answering posts on here and I'm sure will get back to that once he is fully recovered and can spend a long time on the computer again.

[Ken]

I feel that the parking garage should be either ruled in or ruled out. In Rick Norland's professional opinion, the anomaly is consistent with three old graves. For the record, here is his resume:
http://www.construction-solutions.net/resume.asp

As you can see, his resume is impeccible. His opinion should have carried enough weight to do an inexpensive core sample at the very least. KY3 should have done a one-on-one interview with him on camera last year when the story broke; but for some reason, decided not to.

Rick Norland has distinguished himself many times, receiving awards for his inventions and his service. He has published numerous articles and manuals of a technical and scientific nature in addition to receiving patents for his inventions of equipment relating to the industry.

Rick is often called upon to assist in projects worldwide, ranging from modifications to the Panama Canal, the raising of the "Kirsk" submarine, to nuclear power plant decommissioning. He is also actively involved in the design, modification, and testing of new and existing equipment, both here and abroad.

This post isn't about psychics, it's about science. Rick Norland came to Springfield on his own dime and did the GPR scan. He didn't know anything about the three missing women case and he wasn't told what he was looking for. He had no prior knowledge of what he was looking for. He was asked to do the scan and to describe what he saw.

Off camera and off the record; Rick stated there are three sets of skulls, three backbones, and three sets of extremities buried under the concrete.

If Rick's professional opinion doesn't carry weight (and apparently it doesn't); then nothing we do here will matter. It's all in vain.

[gaia227]

Gaia, I'm sorry you feel that way. I PM'd you with a few thoughts on your posting. As far as answering your questions, I usually defer all questions on here to Missouri Mule since he lived in Springfield at the time of the abductions. He worked in an investigative capacity (not law enforcement) for over 30 years. He has been looking into this since it happened and as you can see, I live in Ohio, no where near Missouri. He is very good about answering posts on here and I'm sure will get back to that once he is fully recovered and can spend a long time on the computer again.

Thanks Liz. I in no way am trying to take MissouriMules 'thunder' - he is obviously VERY knowledgeable about the case and has investigative experience and has lots of valuable information. It is weird to hear all these people talking about your hometown; streets you've driven down a hundred times, landmarks, surrounding towns and especially with this case because I remember it so vividly and have followed it for years and I have finally found a place with other people who are interested in it as well. I am grateful for that.

Missouri Mule, I dont know exactly what kind of investigative work you did but would you happen to know my father? He has been a Federal Judge in Springfield for 27yrs - Judge James England?

[pittsburghgirl]

Gaia,

One characteristic of this thread is that there may be one question or issue dominating a discussion for a page or two and it is hard to "change the subject." Many people have seen the 48 Hours video and read the newspaper accounts. Right now we seem to be hot on what for me is new information about the grand jury investigation. The thread is also long, and people come and go without much fanfare. I am a case in point since I have just returned to the discussion. I wanted to respond to your point about Bartt but just got sidetracked. Welcome aboard.

I too find it interesting that Bartt was in Florida when the call came in to AMW. Now I guess the issue is how Bartt does or does not fit in with the GJ "situation."

As you know, our friend Missouri Mule will be sidelined for a while--you may want to PM him so he will get your message when he is able to read and respond more consistently.

[Missouri Mule]

Gaia,

One characteristic of this thread is that there may be one question or issue dominating a discussion for a page or two and it is hard to "change the subject." Many people have seen the 48 Hours video and read the newspaper accounts. Right now we seem to be hot on what for me is new information about the grand jury investigation. The thread is also long, and people come and go without much fanfare. I am a case in point since I have just returned to the discussion. I wanted to respond to your point about Bartt but just got sidetracked. Welcome aboard.

I too find it interesting that Bartt was in Florida when the call came in to AMW. Now I guess the issue is how Bartt does or does not fit in with the GJ "situation."

As you know, our friend Missouri Mule will be sidelined for a while--you may want to PM him so he will get your message when he is able to read and respond more consistently.

Short of necessity. No relative of the victims were subjects of any GJ matter so far as I know. I surely doubt it. I am talking of the federal grand jury. I believe there were actually two grand juries involved. The newspaper provided (and is quoted somewhere here) with quite specific information regarding these subjects.

The individuals involved are not generally known to my knowledge. Having said this, not all the detectives reportedly share this view. (I cannot verify this as fact, however.) Nonetheless, I believe this is where people should center their inquiries. Rule them out before moving onto novel theories and other irrelevant speculation.

The reason to rule them out is because the known published facts would appear to fit the logical scenario of what went down.

Later, as circumstances allow.

[Ken]

Also, I'm a paramedic who works for Cox hospital here in Springfield. My wife works in the Hulston Cancer center. There is absolutely no chance that their bodies are located underneath or anywhere near that hospital! It's inconceivable. There is far too much security, far too much foot-traffic, and far too much lighting. (As was there at the time of their vanishing) I am intimately familiar with the area, and I have been since well before the 3MW's disappearance. You'd have better luck burying three bodies in the middle of the mall during the Holidays.

What if you had a couple bags of just bones? No bodies. Just a couple of burlap sacks of bones. They wouldn't weigh much. They would be easy to tote around and they would fit nicely underneath the rebar.

I believe that you can bury burlap sacks in broad daylight without drawing too much attention. Wouldn't be hard.

[Teresa Larson]

It was to my understanding that they were doing construction around the hospital at the time of their disappearance. I thought I also read that they could possibly be buried there but it would be too costly for them to dig up the area.
:waitasec:

[Cambria]

KY3 in Springfield published this timeline of events from the night of their abduction up to 2006. Sorry if this was previously posted on here but I don't think it was because I don't ever remember reading this version before. It's a good view of things for anyone who has never read about the case before, or for those who want to refamiliarize themselves with it.

Significant events in the disappearance of three women
by KY3 News

Story Published October 04, 2007


Here’s a timeline in the case of the three missing women.

June 7, 1992:
Stacy McCall, 18, Suzie Streeter, 19, and Suzie’s mother, Sherill Levitt, 47, disappeared from Levitt’s home at 1717 E. Delmar St. The teenagers had attended a party on the evening of June 6 after their graduations from Kickapoo High School, then went to Levitt’s home, with plans to go with friends on an outing the next day. They weren’t in the home when friends came by on Sunday morning. Family members notified police that evening after they hadn’t heard from the women.

June 8, 1992:
Springfield police assigned more than 30 officers to work on the case around the clock. Police notified reporters that morning, setting off massive waves of publicity about the case. McCall’s parents distributed flyers about the women to businesses, hoping that someone
would remember something that would be useful.

June 23, 1992:
Billboards with the women's pictures went up around the area.

June 24, 1992:
A reward fund climbed to $40,000 for information on the case.

July 18, 1992:
An FBI expert on violent crime arrived in Springfield to work on the case.

Sep. 3, 1992:
A CBS program, "48 Hours," featured the missing women's case. Other national programs that covered the case included NBC's "Unsolved Mysteries,” and Fox's "America's Most Wanted.”

Oct. 8, 1992:
Springfield police finished a mock-up of a green Dodge van that might have been involved in the abductions. That van sat on the front lawn of the Springfield Police Department for many months to remind people
about the case and to try to jog some memories.

March 15, 1993:
Police continued tracing leads. Sixty-six calls came in from a story on "America's Most Wanted." Four Springfield detectives still worked on the case full-time.

April 7, 1993:
A cassette tape with three songs dedicated to the missing women was packaged and sold to add to the reward fund.

Aug. 28, 1993:
Law officers with a search warrant spent all day looking for the bodies of the three women on the farm of Francis Robb in Webster County.
Afterwards, officers said they found "some" evidence that they
analyzed but nothing ever came of the search.

Oct. 28-29, 1993:
Ripley County, Ind., sheriff's officers recovered a 1985 blue Dodge van motor home in a campground in Versailles, Ind. People in the campground said it had been occupied by a man until about June or July
and felt it was abandoned. The van's vehicle identification number matched the VIN on a van stolen from an automobile dealership in Springfield between June 4 and June 9, 1992, that once was considered to be a possible suspect vehicle in the missing women case.

Aug. 26-27, 1994:
A federal grand jury reviewed evidence in the missing women's case. Police sources said they had three suspects at the time.

One was a 36-year-old man from Springfield with a long criminal record dating to 1978. He's spent most of his adult life in jail or prison, including sentences for stealing, burglary, theft, robbery and harassment.
He had escaped from prison and, most recently, was arrested for raping
and sodomizing a woman in Springfield after breaking into her home.
On this date, he was behind bars.

The second suspect was a 28-year-old man from Kansas. He,
too, has a criminal record dating to 1984, including convictions for burglary, aggravated assault, escape and various parole violations.
He also was behind bars at this time. The third suspect was a
28-year-old man who was originally from Cedar County, Mo., near Stockton. He was first arrested in 1985 and has done time for burglary, stealing and parole violation. He escaped from prison with the first suspect in 1990 but was in custody as of this date.

These three men were moved around the Kansas prison system for years and often did time together in the same facility. When the three women disappeared, all three of the men were on the street.

The federal grand jury issued no indictments.

Nov. 2, 1994:
“America's Most Wanted” got a tip with directions to "bodies" near Gainesville, Mo. Searchers found a garbage bag with two blue T-shirts with gunshot holes and “old” blood on them. An animal’s body also was in the bag.

May 13, 1997:
Jim Williams, Levitt’s father, died in Seattle.

June 7, 1997:
On the fifth anniversary of their disappearance, hundreds of friends and family members gathered in Phelps Grove Park in Springfield to
dedicate a monument to them -- a black granite bench engraved with their names -- in the park’s Crime Victims Garden.

Sep. 26, 1997:
A judge granted the request of relatives of Streeter and Levitt to officially declare them dead after the mandatory five-year waiting period had passed. McCall’s parents have declined to take that step.

July and August, 2002:
Webster County Sheriff Ron Worsham led a search, which included cadaver dogs, men with backhoes, archaeologists and FBI agents, of a property on Highway A in his county. Worsham’s department received a tip about two men who drove a green van and worked for a concrete company in Greene County. The property was where the concrete company dumped material. The search, which covered parts of two weekends, turned up nothing that led investigators to believe the missing women’s bodies were on the property. Worsham was assistant police chief in Springfield when the women disappeared.

April 7-10, 2003:
Searchers dug at a property south of Cassville, following tips that led them to believe the women might be buried there. Nothing was found there that indicated a link to Streeter, Levitt and McCall.

Spring, 2006:
Independent investigator Kathee Baird says she found evidence that the women are buried under a parking garage near Cox South Hospital.
Police spent many months trying to verify her claim but declined to tear
up the garage to search for bodies.

[Missouri Mule]

It was to my understanding that they were doing construction around the hospital at the time of their disappearance. I thought I also read that they could possibly be buried there but it would be too costly for them to dig up the area.
:waitasec:

Cost of coring the concrete has already been guaranteed. But in my view it is not likely to lead anywhere, although in principle I support doing it in order to put this dispute to rest.

It is also my view that this is a convenient red herring for the police department to deflect legitimate inquiries. They benefit by letting the conspiracists waste their time talking about this rather than deal with real facts. That would be my take on the situation. But I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Ken]

Cost of coring the concrete has already been guaranteed. But in my view it is not likely to lead anywhere, although in principle I support doing it in order to put this dispute to rest.

It is also my view that this is a convenient red herring for the police department to deflect legitimate inquiries. They benefit by letting the conspiracists waste their time talking about this rather than deal with real facts. That would be my take on the situation. But I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

It will cost $200 to $400 to do the coring. The hospital gave the SPD full permission to core the spot anytime they want to. Why the SPD won't core the spot is the $64,000 question.

The parking garage lead doesn't have to be the Springfield Three. It could be the Oklahoma Three who vanished 9 days earlier on May 29th, 1992. It could also be Angela Hammond who vanished from Clinton, Missouri on April 4th, 1991. It could also be three transients (prostitutes, homeless people, etc.) that have never been reported missing.

I would have to disagree with MM's assessment that this lead is a red herring because it could apply to any number of unsolved cases.

[Missouri Mule]

It will cost $200 to $400 to do the coring. The hospital gave the SPD full permission to core the spot anytime they want to. Why the SPD won't core the spot is the $64,000 question.

The parking garage lead doesn't have to be the Springfield Three. It could be the Oklahoma Three who vanished 9 days earlier on May 29th, 1992. It could also be Angela Hammond who vanished from Clinton, Missouri on April 4th, 1991. It could also be three transients (prostitutes, homeless people, etc.) that have never been reported missing.

I would have to disagree with MM's assessment that this lead is a red herring because it could apply to any number of unsolved cases.

Point well taken. What I intended to convey was this is a convenient "red herring" for the police department to talk about rather than the case itself. In fact they REFUSE to talk about the case itself according to a well placed source to who told me this personally via e-mail.

It is entirely plausible and possible for other remains to be found there. Norland is in fact is a well respected professional.

[Ken]

Point well taken. What I intended to convey was this is a convenient "red herring" for the police department to talk about rather than the case itself. In fact they REFUSE to talk about the case itself according to a well placed source to who told me this personally via e-mail.

I believe it. A family member of the Oklahoma Three has made several inquiries about the parking garage and the SPD won't talk to her.

[Hurricane]

What if you had a couple bags of just bones? No bodies. Just a couple of burlap sacks of bones. They wouldn't weigh much. They would be easy to tote around and they would fit nicely underneath the rebar.

I believe that you can bury burlap sacks in broad daylight without drawing too much attention. Wouldn't be hard.

Then today you said:


"The parking garage lead doesn't have to be the Springfield Three. It could be the Oklahoma Three who vanished 9 days earlier on May 29th, 1992. It could also be Angela Hammond who vanished from Clinton, Missouri on April 4th, 1991. It could also be three transients (prostitutes, homeless people, etc.) that have never been reported missing."

I thought in your vision of Stacy McCall she conveyed to you where she was:

"On August 14th, 2000, I was going over the vision with Stacy for what seemed to be for the millionth time, when I realized something. Stacy was to my right and for the longest time, I could only see her from behind. This gave me the words: "Right behind: or "Right in back of." I took it one step further... "Right in back of Cox Hospital"

Snip

"When I experienced the vision with Stacy, I watched her hair fall from her left shoulder and I didn't know what it meant.

In April of 2002, I realized something. Stacy was touching me with her left hand. Her hair fell from her left shoulder and when she turned toward me, she turned to her left. So, the word "left" is very important in this vision.

"When I went to the internet and pulled up a drawing of Cox Hospital South, I noticed something. When you stand in back of Cox Hospital South and face west (Stacy was facing west when I experienced the vision), you will find yourself between two buildings. One of them is onb the right and the other is on the left.


"The one one the left is Cox Medical Plaza II and is now known as the Hulston Caner Center. At the time the women vanished, the area was an open field."

So now you are saying that it could also be the Oklahoma 3, Angela Hammond, protitutes or homeless people? A doctor has said that the remains could be a "lanky male". What about him? I don't think Jimmy Hoffa was very lanky, so we can't include him.

From the reports of those involved in the scan this is what was believed to have been found, and the condition that they are in:

"According to Mr. Gray's instrument, the women are placed 'side by side.' Of course, we won't know which one is further 'west' until they are recovered. I'm betting it's Stacy."


"In the basement parking garage of the Hulston Cancer Center, below 2 foot of concrete. The scan indicated the women are placed shoulder to shoulder."


"Solomon" had indicated the women were buried under about two feet of concrete and were lying side by side."


But now they are just a bag of bones? Can you see why some people might have a problem with credibility here?

[Ken]

Hurricane,

You bring up some valid points. My understanding is that the parking garage was built beginning in September of 1993, about 15 months after the women disappeared. If the women were murdered in June of 1992; then after 15 months, the only remains that would be left would be bones. These could have been transported from another location to be buried at the parking garage. If someone wanted to bury a couple of burlap bags of bones; it could have easily been done. They easily fit underneath rebar. Bodies are heavy and difficult to bury; bones are not.

Personally, I believe the remains under the parking garage belong to the Springfield Three. However, there are others that believe the remains belong to someone else. The Oklahoma Three have been brought up several times. The SPD won't talk to the family of the Oklahoma Three despite several inquiries by a key family member.

The remains at the parking garage were originally discovered by Tim Gray using a prototype technology. Tim works as a subcontractor for the EPA. We were skeptical about Tim's findings; so we brought in Rick Norland and videotaped the GPR scan. Rick wasn't told anything about what he was looking for. He had no knowledge of the three missing women case. He did the scan on his own dime and we asked him to describe what he saw. His results supports Tim's findings. In fact, in the GPR video, Tim's markings in red carpenters crayon are inside of Rick Norland's scan.

If the SPD were to do a core sample and find the three missing women at the Parking Garage; Tim Gray will have some explaining to do. He will have to explain to the authorities how he found them with his prototype technology. Exactly how Tim Gray found the anomaly at the parking garage is the $64,000 question. Tim has told me on several occasions: "Ken, I can't tell you how it works. I can just tell you that it does."

Tim is familiar with my vision with Stacy McCall. In fact, he knew about it before he found the anomaly at the parking garage. In a twist of irony, Tim has told me on several occasions that he doesn't believe in "psychic stuff." I met Tim Gray in person at the Hazel Park, Michigan race track just a short distance from the finish line on July 15th, 2006. His girlfriend races horses and her entry "Racy Betty" was racing that day. He told me that several hours after arriving in Springfield; he was "standing on top of their graves."

Tim said that he discovered the anomaly around 12:30 AM on April 18th, 2006 using a technology based on Micro Impulse Radar. He found them just several hours after arriving in Springfield. Tim works as a subcontractor for the Environmental Protection Agency. He told me that his instrument detected the presence of Mecury underneath the concrete. Mercury is a component of teeth fillings. His instrument works on the premise that everything resonates a certain frequencies. His instrument can detect resonating frequencies of various materials and can determine the distance and depth at which they are buried or located. Of course, how his instrument does this is a mystery.

My pen pal Robert Cox had written me some time ago inquiring where the parking garage was located. So, a couple of months ago, I wrote back and told him that it's located on Bradford Parkway. I also mentioned that it's an eerie coincidence that his brother's name is Brad. I have yet to hear back from him.

[pittsburghgirl]

Liz,

Thanks for posting the timeline. I found it helpful--it reminded me about things I read when I first became interested in the case that I have since forgotten.

The way it is written raises some questions. For example, under August 26-27, 1994, the timeline states: "He had escaped from prison and, most recently, was arrested for raping and sodomizing a woman in Springfield after breaking into her home." "Most recently" in reference to the grand jury dates, or the date of the timeline story (October 4, 2007)? Or both, I guess? There are other little odd moments like that. But it is a great summary of the big events and a place to start.

This could just be the English teacher in me seeing more than one possible meaning...

[Hurricane]

Hurricane,

You bring up some valid points. My understanding is that the parking garage was built beginning in September of 1993, about 15 months after the women disappeared. If the women were murdered in June of 1992; then after 15 months, the only remains that would be left would be bones. These could have been transported from another location to be buried at the parking garage. If someone wanted to bury a couple of burlap bags of bones; it could have easily been done. They easily fit underneath rebar. Bodies are heavy and difficult to bury; bones are not.




Tim said that he discovered the anomaly around 12:30 AM on April 18th, 2006 using a technology based on Micro Impulse Radar. He found them just several hours after arriving in Springfield. Tim works as a subcontractor for the Environmental Protection Agency. He told me that his instrument detected the presence of Mecury underneath the concrete. Mercury is a component of teeth fillings. His instrument works on the premise that everything resonates a certain frequencies. His instrument can detect resonating frequencies of various materials and can determine the distance and depth at which they are buried or located. Of course, how his instrument does this is a mystery.
.

Getting back to the basics of my post, let me condense this down to just a couple of questions for you to answer:

*How can Stacy McCall not be one of the bodies there when she gave you explicit detail as to her whereabouts?

*How can the remains now be just a "bag of bones"?

The reports made by those of you involved in the scans have them laying "shoulder to shoulder" and "side by side" with one of them slightly separated from the other two. One of the reports on the scans said that they still wore their jewelry. And one of the reports told about seeing their teeth and ovaries. You all must have some pictures from the scan that are much better than the ones that have been posted!

I'm not a dentist but I believe that the use of mercury dental fillings stopped long before Suzie & Stacy would have ever been to a dentist in their lifetime. Perhaps Sherrill had some old fillings which had never been replaced. But those would have to have been some pretty old fillings. Most old mercury based fillings have been replaced by now because they break. See how many people you can find today in their 50's or older, who still have these mercury based fillings that have not been replaced.

In order to do this last minute burial before the concrete pour it would be necessary to cut away and get underneath all of the wire mesh that would have been wire tied to the rebar. All of this would have been on top of the dirt which was compacted and leveled. Any disturbance to either the dirt or the wire mesh would have been easily noticeable.

My vote says that what you are seeing is just some old decaying tree limbs. Nothing more.

[Hurricane]

Liz,

Thanks for posting the timeline. I found it helpful--it reminded me about things I read when I first became interested in the case that I have since forgotten.

The way it is written raises some questions. For example, under August 26-27, 1994, the timeline states: "He had escaped from prison and, most recently, was arrested for raping and sodomizing a woman in Springfield after breaking into her home." "Most recently" in reference to the grand jury dates, or the date of the timeline story (October 4, 2007)? Or both, I guess? There are other little odd moments like that. But it is a great summary of the big events and a place to start.

This could just be the English teacher in me seeing more than one possible meaning...

pittsburghgirl --

The original 1994 article documents the arrest at that time.

[Missouri Mule]

Hmmm, I cannot help but feel a little ignored on this thread. I have posted twice and no one has even acknowledged my presence. I have not received that type of reception on other threads, usually people are very friendly and welcome me and at least respond in some fashion. There is nothing more annoying than taking the time to type out a thoughtful inquiry or theory only to have no one even acknowledge it. I even offered my help since I am from Springfield and my entire family lives there. I realize that this is an involved thread and there are consistently the same posters and I doubt it is even something that is being done on purpose. I would just like to encourage people to have an open mind and when you see a new name or see that this person has not been a member very long don't automatically dismiss them. I am very active on other message boards, which is how I came to find this one, and I find myself doing that very same thing; overlooking someone because they are new to the board because I am in search of looking for the 'regulars' and there have been many times i was surprised when I did read what they had to say. Fresh eyes are sometimes the best. I am not complaining, nor are my feelings hurt. It is just something I would like to point out. Somtimes people don't realize these things until another points it out.
Thank you for reading. Take Care. MM I hope your surgery went okay and the healing process is a hasty one.

Thanks. I am hoping for a green light this next week but this gas bubble in my eye has to go away before that can happen. I am not ignoring your interests. Later.

[Ken]

I'm not a dentist but I believe that the use of mercury dental fillings stopped long before Suzie & Stacy would have ever been to a dentist in their lifetime. Perhaps Sherrill had some old fillings which had never been replaced. But those would have to have been some pretty old fillings. Most old mercury based fillings have been replaced by now because they break. See how many people you can find today in their 50's or older, who still have these mercury based fillings that have not been replaced.

My vote says that what you are seeing is just some old decaying tree limbs. Nothing more.

Hurricane, please read this article from the American Dental Association. Dental Amalgrams containing mercury are still being used today. They are currently in use because they are safe, durable, easy to use, and relatively inexpensive.
http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fillings.asp


The family of the Oklahoma Three is convinced there is more to it than "decaying tree limbs".

[Ken]

Getting back to the basics of my post, let me condense this down to just a couple of questions for you to answer:

*How can Stacy McCall not be one of the bodies there when she gave you explicit detail as to her whereabouts?

*How can the remains now be just a "bag of bones"?


Hurricane, I believe I answered these two questions in my long post on page 22.

[Hurricane]

Hurricane, please read this article from the American Dental Association. Dental Amalgrams containing mercury are still being used today. They are currently in use because they are safe, durable, easy to use, and relatively inexpensive.
http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fillings.asp


The family of the Oklahoma Three is convinced there is more to it than "decaying tree limbs".

Mercury is also used to preserve wood by inhibiting the growth of wood rotting fungi. As a result mercury is one of the heavy metals present in rotting wood. Tim Gray's scanner may very well be picking up the mercury from decaying tree limbs or rotting construction trash. He acknowledges in the video that it could be decaying tree limbs, does he not?

The fact that the family of the Oklahoma 3 is convinced is nothing more than their wish to bring closure to their case. Do they have any evidence that puts their missing family members there?

[Hurricane]

Hurricane, I believe I answered these two questions in my long post on page 22.

What you have proposed is that the bodies were previously buried in eastern Greene County and then moved just prior to the pouring of the concrete as a "bag of bones" and reburied. Did I understand your point correctly?

My question then is how could this be, when the reports from the scans that were conducted indicate that the bodies are laying side by side, shoulder to shoulder? The reports from the scans that those of you who were involved have given us do not confirm that what was seen was a bunch of scattered bones.

[Ken]

The Springfield Police Department's slogan on their website is "Partnering with the Community..."

IF the SPD were to core out the anomaly at the parking garage, it would be good Public Relations for them regardless of the outcome. Whether or not there are remains or tree roots, they can publically say that they are willing to "Partner with the Community..."

They have a tremendous opportunity in front of them.

[Ken]

Mercury is also used to preserve wood by inhibiting the growth of wood rotting fungi. As a result mercury is one of the heavy metals present in rotting wood. Tim Gray's scanner may very well be picking up the mercury from decaying tree limbs or rotting construction trash. He acknowledges in the video that it could be decaying tree limbs, does he not?

The fact that the family of the Oklahoma 3 is convinced is nothing more than their wish to bring closure to their case. Do they have any evidence that puts their missing family members there?

Hurricane, before I respond to this post, can you please explain in detail the reasoning behind your faulty post about dental fillings. Nothing that you had written concerning dental fillings was correct.

[Hurricane]

Hurricane, before I respond to this post, can you please explain in detail the reasoning behind your faulty post about dental fillings. Nothing that you had written concerning dental fillings was correct.

I did read the link you provided concerning the fillings; I stand corrected. I assumed that any mercury based fillings went the way with mercury batteries, etc.

However I still believe that the amount of mercury in decaying tree limbs and in the soil could give a false reading.

[Missouri Mule]

The Springfield Police Department's slogan on their website is "Partnering with the Community..."

IF the SPD were to core out the anomaly at the parking garage, it would be good Public Relations for them regardless of the outcome. Whether or not there are remains or tree roots, they can publically say that they are willing to "Partner with the Community..."

They have a tremendous opportunity in front of them.

Except they would then have to address the facts. This parking lot controversy plays to their advantage to stonewall the issue as that takes everyone's eyes off the other proven facts they refuse to talk about.

They will not core unless the family members insist on it. There is no sign that is in the offing. The cops won't and don't want to discuss the case. So they get to have their cake and eat it too. They just keep on saying it is the conspiracy addicts feeding the story and claim there is nothing there. And they are getting by with it. This is why I have said that interested people should look at known and published facts. That they can't ignore.

[Trooogrit]

OK Ken you got your point across, no need to push it, as it runs people off. I realize you feel quite confident about that location and what you saw, but its not the only information that has come in about the case. Its a shame that the police dont just dig it to eliminate it from the mix. I would focus on shoring up more information on that spot. Documenting every possible tip that led to that spot outside of psychic visions. I have only found 1 other person that ever mentioned that site. So the more facts gathered the better, and potentially finding people that worked that site. They said they would dig if they had more evidence. Find that then proceed?

[Ken]

OK Ken you got your point across, no need to push it, as it runs people off.

If your methodology is correct, then why do we see the same advertisements over and over and over again in the media? If what you are saying is true; pharmaceutical sales should have tanked a long time ago.

If you want something that runs people off, choose Apathy.

[Trooogrit]

Force feeding your opinion has run people off here before. Not everyone agrees with your opinion. I have looked at it very closely. To the extent of writing letters to the other man who posted the rumors about Cox Hospital, unfortunately he did not respond. I can only go by what I am told is there. I can only go by what is at best controversial in nature. I would just like to hear the kind of stories about the Cox site that you hear about PFI sight? Where are the rumors?. I am not interested in visions, I have no proof that is possible. The technology used to scan the concrete is reliable, now find some more evidence pointing to the spot. Its pretty simple. I dont think you are gonna get the dig done until there is more evidence pointing there.

[Ken]

Force feeding your opinion has run people off here before. Not everyone agrees with your opinion. I have looked at it very closely. To the extent of writing letters to the other man who posted the rumors about Cox Hospital, unfortunately he did not respond. I can only go by what I am told is there. I can only go by what is at best controversial in nature. I would just like to hear the kind of stories about the Cox site that you hear about PFI sight? Where are the rumors?. I am not interested in visions, I have no proof that is possible. The technology used to scan the concrete is reliable, now find some more evidence pointing to the spot. Its pretty simple. I dont think you are gonna get the dig done until there is more evidence pointing there.

When the thread died out last October 1st, I got blamed for running people off even though I hadn't posted anything since July 6th. I hadn't written anything for three months. I guess I can write something today and run people off three months later LOL.

With that being said, Tim Gray is what leads us to the parking garage, not my vision. Tim is the one who discovered the anomaly at the parking garage. My vision had nothing to do with it. When I met with him back in 2006, he told me that he was 150 yards away from the parking garage when his instrument picked up the signal for mercury. He was able to narrow the signal down to the spot in question.

Cox Hospital is an area that he would have checked anyways, regardless of my vision. Cox Hospital would have been a reasonable area to check with his technology simply because of the amount of construction that took place in early 90's.

Again, at the risk of running people off, Tim Gray is what leads us to the parking garage, not my vision.

[Trooogrit]

I am not talking about that. I am talking about why you were looking there in the first place. Find more information that points to that location as a burial, whether it is tips, rumors or whatever. That would solidify your scans as real evidence and the police will have to dig. I have not seen much in the way of rumors or tips that point there, and I believe that the police dont think it is possible. Therefore they wont dig.

[Hurricane]

With that being said, Tim Gray is what leads us to the parking garage, not my vision. Tim is the one who discovered the anomaly at the parking garage. My vision had nothing to do with it. When I met with him back in 2006, he told me that he was 150 yards away from the parking garage when his instrument picked up the signal for mercury. He was able to narrow the signal down to the spot in question.


How did he know that he wasn't just picking up a signal for mercury from someone with dental fillings in the car next to him? There had to be people all around him within 150 yards with fillings in their mouth.

[Ken]

I am not talking about that. I am talking about why you were looking there in the first place. Find more information that points to that location as a burial, whether it is tips, rumors or whatever. That would solidify your scans as real evidence and the police will have to dig. I have not seen much in the way of rumors or tips that point there, and I believe that the police dont think it is possible. Therefore they wont dig.

There is another possibility. The SPD may still be in the process of investigating this lead. Several months after announcing on television that they had no intentions of digging; they were in the process of doing a background check on Tim Gray.

Tim works as a subcontractor for the EPA in Homeland Security and he has a very high security clearance. It set off red flags when the SPD tried to do a backgound check. Tim mentioned that his boss alerted him to what was happening.

Maybe that is why the SPD has been tight lipped lately.

[Ken]

How did he know that he wasn't just picking up a signal for mercury from someone with dental fillings in the car next to him? There had to be people all around him within 150 yards with fillings in their mouth.

That is another $64,000 question and it's a good one. It's a question that only Tim Gray can answer. Tim has told me on many occasions: "Ken, I can't tell you how it works. I can just tell you that it does."

[Ken]

I am not talking about that. I am talking about why you were looking there in the first place. Find more information that points to that location as a burial, whether it is tips, rumors or whatever. That would solidify your scans as real evidence and the police will have to dig. I have not seen much in the way of rumors or tips that point there, and I believe that the police dont think it is possible. Therefore they wont dig.

Trooogrit, there is something else. After Tim Gray made the discovery in April 2006; Cpl. Higdon from the SPD wanted to see a demonstration of Tim's instrument. Tim refused to show the SPD how his technology works. Tim told me that he was concerned that his instrument would be confiscated. Tim did have phone conversations with Cpl. Higdon a few times and Major Ijames on at least one occasion. Needless to say, they didn't go well.

Because of this, we asked Rick Norland to do an independent scan. We didn't videotape Tim's scan, so we wanted to make sure that we videotaped Rick Norland's scan. Part of us was hoping that Rick's GPR scan would come up negative. Because if it did, we could write Tim off as a quack and move on to something else. However, when Rick's GPR scan supported what Tim was saying; it created a conundrum.

I personally believe that for Tim to have randomly picked the spot in question is astronomical; whether or not there are three tree roots or three sets of bones buried there.

[Hurricane]

That is another $64,000 question and it's a good one. It's a question that only Tim Gray can answer. Tim has told me on many occasions: "Ken, I can't tell you how it works. I can just tell you that it does."

Ken,

One hundred fifty yards would be the equivalent of standing in the middle of three football fields, end to end. Everything within that 150 yard radius containing mercury would set off a signal on Gray's scanner. How did Gray null out all other signals and hone in on what may only be five or six, maybe even a dozen dental fillings that belonged to the missing three?

The hospital would certainly be within this radius. Think about all of the sources of mercury producing signals from there; a hundred or more patients, nurses, and doctors all with dental fillings in their mouths; mercury switches, thermostats, thermometers, wood, and who knows what else containing mercury and producing such signals would all be in that hospital.

How can Gray's scanner ignore all of these sources of mercury signals and hone in on a location that he supposedly has no prior knowledge of?

For him to get away with just saying "Ken, I can't tell you how it works. I can just tell you that it does." only adds to the lack of credibility of him, and of those involved in the scan who did not ask such questions and demand appropriate answers before taking the results as being worthy.

You wanted him to find the results you wanted, and where you wanted them.

[Hurricane]

After Tim Gray made the discovery in April 2006; Cpl. Higdon from the SPD wanted to see a demonstration of Tim's instrument. Tim refused to show the SPD how his technology works. Tim told me that he was concerned that his instrument would be confiscated.

Why didn't SPD just get a court order to compel Gray to comply with the demonstration? After all Gray entered the case when he conducted his scan. I'm not sure if SPD would have any legal right to confiscate his equipment. We would need a lawyer to answer that.

If I had this piece of technology that was cutting edge, I would welcome the chance to receive an endorsement of it's legitimacy by a police department. It certainly would go a long way in marketing your services.

[Trooogrit]

Trooogrit, there is something else. After Tim Gray made the discovery in April 2006; Cpl. Higdon from the SPD wanted to see a demonstration of Tim's instrument. Tim refused to show the SPD how his technology works. Tim told me that he was concerned that his instrument would be confiscated. Tim did have phone conversations with Cpl. Higdon a few times and Major Ijames on at least one occasion. Needless to say, they didn't go well.

Because of this, we asked Rick Norland to do an independent scan. We didn't videotape Tim's scan, so we wanted to make sure that we videotaped Rick Norland's scan. Part of us was hoping that Rick's GPR scan would come up negative. Because if it did, we could write Tim off as a quack and move on to something else. However, when Rick's GPR scan supported what Tim was saying; it created a conundrum.

I personally believe that for Tim to have randomly picked the spot in question is astronomical; whether or not there are three tree roots or three sets of bones buried there.

Ok now the whole story is coming out. When I first heard about this I focused on this "new technology" of Tim Gray. GPR is not as reliable. The GPR scan has been used in other cases and will show disturbances consistent with burial, but not always will there be a body in that spot. What you need is to promote this new technology of Tim Gray. Give it an acid test of sorts. Convince them that it works as you say it does. I also would document more rumors about that site. If you want the dig done you need to do some more work in my opinion. They have made a stand on what you have so far, and it probably isnt gonna happen without more evidence pointing to that sight, and more demonstrations of the technology Tim Gray uses. To tell someone "I dont know how it works, I just know it does" is.........very unreliable.

[Cambria]

Liz,

Thanks for posting the timeline. I found it helpful--it reminded me about things I read when I first became interested in the case that I have since forgotten.

The way it is written raises some questions. For example, under August 26-27, 1994, the timeline states: "He had escaped from prison and, most recently, was arrested for raping and sodomizing a woman in Springfield after breaking into her home." "Most recently" in reference to the grand jury dates, or the date of the timeline story (October 4, 2007)? Or both, I guess? There are other little odd moments like that. But it is a great summary of the big events and a place to start.

This could just be the English teacher in me seeing more than one possible meaning...

Pittsburghgirl, You're welcome. I found it helpful too. I think before I had read so many articles from the Springfield News-Leader and the Kansas City Star and I wasn't too organized in my thinking about things. Seeing it encapsulated like this made it a bit easier for me.

I think the "most recently" in the time line refers to the date from 1994. That's the way I took it. It is somewhat confusing though.

It is interesting that all 3 suspects were on the street when the abductions occurred. There were a couple other things in the timeline I don't remember hearing before, like the AMW tip about the bodies being in Gainesville, MO and searchers finding the garbage bag with 2 blue T-shirts with gunshot holes and old blood on them. I'm sure it was in a news article but I completely missed it. I wonder if they did DNA testing on the T-shirts? I assume they did but there was no follow up article in regards to that.

[pittsburghgirl]

Yeah, there has to be more to the AMW thing than we know. I still find it interesting that it came from Florida, where Bartt was living, although the number of psychopathic dirtbags that go in and out of that state has to be pretty high. It's probably a little harder to be a predator in a place like Pittsburgh or Green Bay, where you've got to function with boots and coats and gloves in the winter ...and you can blend in with or victimize the snowbirds and tourists and students.

[pittsburghgirl]

Looking back at the timeline, I realize that I made an unwarranted assumption. The AMW "tip" that I have read about before was from a caller in Florida. The tip about bodies in Gainesville does not have to be the "same tip." Hmmm...

[Missouri Mule]

Pittsburghgirl, You're welcome. I found it helpful too. I think before I had read so many articles from the Springfield News-Leader and the Kansas City Star and I wasn't too organized in my thinking about things. Seeing it encapsulated like this made it a bit easier for me.

I think the "most recently" in the time line refers to the date from 1994. That's the way I took it. It is somewhat confusing though.

It is interesting that all 3 suspects were on the street when the abductions occurred. There were a couple other things in the timeline I don't remember hearing before, like the AMW tip about the bodies being in Gainesville, MO and searchers finding the garbage bag with 2 blue T-shirts with gunshot holes and old blood on them. I'm sure it was in a news article but I completely missed it. I wonder if they did DNA testing on the T-shirts? I assume they did but there was no follow up article in regards to that.

I must confess I have not heard of the Gainesville matter before or I had long forgotten about it. Is there a news item that speaks to this particular matter or is it in relation to those other missing and/or murder victims during this general period most likely perpetrated by a serial killer but unlikely unrelated to the 3MW case?

We are not confusing Gainesville, Missouri and Gainesville, Florida, are we? I knew about the caller from Florida to AMW and watched that particular program but don't recall anything related to this case from Gainesville, Missouri which is about 100 miles from Springfield, Missouri.

[Cambria]

I must confess I have not heard of the Gainesville matter before or I had long forgotten about it. Is there a news item that speaks to this particular matter or is it in relation to those other missing and/or murder victims during this general period most likely perpetrated by a serial killer but unlikely unrelated to the 3MW case?

We are not confusing Gainesville, Missouri and Gainesville, Florida, are we? I knew about the caller from Florida to AMW and watched that particular program but don't recall anything related to this case from Gainesville, Missouri which is about 100 miles from Springfield, Missouri.

pittsburgh girl and MM - I thought the same things when I saw that about the Gainesville, MO search. I was positive I had never read that before but then I thought maybe it was something I forgot about. I also have always found it strange that Bartt was in Florida at the time of the AMW call, and I also wondered if they meant Gainesville, Florida instead of Missouri. I wonder if KY3 got their cases mixed up? I'm sure if I heard that before it was something I would remember because the 2 blue T-shirts with gunshot holes and old blood certainly grabbed my attention. When I have time I'm going to check the archives on the KY3 site and also the newspapers. If it really pertains to the 3MW case there should be another news article about it somewhere

[Ken]

A high ranking Springfield government official with GPR experience (I can't tell you who), thoroughly reviewed the videotaped GPR scan. In his opinion, the results of the scan clearly indicate the presence of organic material.

We do know for sure there is something organic underneath the concrete.

It could be three sets of tree roots with three sets of five foot long branches. If that's true, then it is a simple case of careless workmanship.

It is true that tree branches can't be ruled out. However, bones also can't be ruled out.

If the SPD were to dig and find remains, there is nobody to charge with a crime. The families will want justice and there is nobody to indict. I believe this is the reason why the dig hasn't taken place. If they ever connect one person to that spot, they would dig tomorrow.

I have never been to Springfield, Missouri. I do know that the SPD has done at least two complete thorough background checks on me that I know of. So, it won't be me.

[Missouri Mule]

Question has come up repeatedly and I thought I would throw it out for anyone who might know the answer.

So far as I can recall, the mystery caller to AMW came in to the SPD sometime during December, 1992. (I watched the live broadcast.) That would have been some period after the "48 hour" piece some months prior.

My question is whether anyone has any knowledge who that person was? Does anyone have any information who that was? Would they care to identify themselves here to clear up this long time mystery? Evidently the police seemed to think it was of importance but it, to my knowledge, has never been revealed and so far as I know, that person never recontacted the SPD with this "vital information."

Any takers?

[Hurricane]

There were a couple other things in the timeline I don't remember hearing before, like the AMW tip about the bodies being in Gainesville, MO and searchers finding the garbage bag with 2 blue T-shirts with gunshot holes and old blood on them. I'm sure it was in a news article but I completely missed it. I wonder if they did DNA testing on the T-shirts? I assume they did but there was no follow up article in regards to that.

This was a bogus tip that came in to SPD from the Oct. 20 showing of AMW (not sure if that was the original showing or a repeat, I haven't looked up the date yet).

I'll paraphrase by date what each of three articles from the News-Leader had to say:

11/04/94

AMW tip led investigators to a remote area north of Theodosia, MO and Bull Shoals Lake in Ozark County where they discovered bones and shirt fragments.

Ray Richardson of the Ozark County Sheriffs Dept. said the bones were identified as being from a cow and a deer.

The clothing, described as having holes in the front was taken to the MSHP lab in Jefferson City for testing.

11/05/94

SPD's Doug Thomas said the tip looks to be just another in a long line of false leads.

The tip had said that the bodies could be found in this remote location.

Thomas said that the panties and tee shirts did not match what Streeter, McCall, & Levitt were thought to have been wearing.

Ozark County Sheriff Vaughn said that the holes in the front of the tee shirts looked to be consistent with shotgun pellet holes. The fronts of the tee shirts were covered with a black substance, which was to be tested for blood.

SPD's Doug Thomas said that nothing was consistant with what their looking for.

11/09/94

Tests reveal tip not tied to missing women.

Substance was no blood.

Incident marks just the latest bogus tip.

[Missouri Mule]

This was a bogus tip that came in to SPD from the Oct. 20 showing of AMW (not sure if that was the original showing or a repeat, I haven't looked up the date yet).

I'll paraphrase by date what each of three articles from the News-Leader had to say:

11/04/94

AMW tip led investigators to a remote area north of Theodosia, MO and Bull Shoals Lake in Ozark County where they discovered bones and shirt fragments.

Ray Richardson of the Ozark County Sheriffs Dept. said the bones were identified as being from a cow and a deer.

The clothing, described as having holes in the front was taken to the MSHP lab in Jefferson City for testing.

11/05/94

SPD's Doug Thomas said the tip looks to be just another in a long line of false leads.

The tip had said that the bodies could be found in this remote location.

Thomas said that the panties and tee shirts did not match what Streeter, McCall, & Levitt were thought to have been wearing.

Ozark County Sheriff Vaughn said that the holes in the front of the tee shirts looked to be consistent with shotgun pellet holes. The fronts of the tee shirts were covered with a black substance, which was to be tested for blood.

SPD's Doug Thomas said that nothing was consistant with what their looking for.

11/09/94

Tests reveal tip not tied to missing women.

Substance was no blood.

Incident marks just the latest bogus tip.

I take it that this was a second tip and not "the" tip that generated so much interest. I'm referring to the tip about the information of "vital interest" that the SPD seemed so interested in. That particular segment of AMW consisted of the original lead detective and the McCalls and it took up much of the program and there was a bank of telephone operators taking information. Somehow that particular call was disconnected and to the best of my knowledge never recontacted the SPD. But if I am mistaken, then I stand to be corrected.

I understand that SPD's Doug Thomas was the detective who spent most of the time on this case. He may now be retired and it would be helpful if he or someone from the department would simply clear up some of these questions. I don't know why it would be so "classified" to simply state that the call in question turned out to be without substance. What I don't understand and will never understand is why the SPD is seemingly so unwilling to periodically go over the facts and a basic summary of the case to bring the public up to speed. From what I have been told by someone with access to the department is that they flatly refuse to even discuss the case. I don't get that. I'd like to believe that they are trying to fake out the culprits but I tend to doubt that is the case.

[Hurricane]

I take it that this was a second tip and not "the" tip that generated so much interest. I'm referring to the tip about the information of "vital interest" that the SPD seemed so interested in. .

My quote is concerning the 'bodies at Gainesville" tip that Liz and pitsburghgirl were wondering about.