View Full Version : The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #1
englishleigh
06-21-2004, 03:07 PM
I was just thinking about this case last night and thought I would look online to see if there had been any updates. I can't find any. Does anyone know of anything new in this case? The missing are Stacy McCall, Suzie Streeter & her mother, Sherrill Levitt. They disappeared from Springfield, MO, from Suzie's and Sherrill's home in early June, 1992. The two girls, Stacy & Suzie, had just graduated from high school the night before and were having sleepover when they were abducted. As far as I know, they have never been found.
http://www.ci.springfield.mo.us/spd/Miscellanea/3missingwomen.html
englishleigh
06-21-2004, 05:15 PM
Sorry!! I just found an update, anyway:
http://www.showmenews.com/2004/Jun/20040608News023.asp
CaliMom
06-21-2004, 07:44 PM
It's so nice to see an update to this case. It is one that has haunted me for some time. Thanks for the update!
englishleigh
06-21-2004, 07:51 PM
That article was dated June 8...I searched all the online Springfield area newspapers for an update to the update, but found nothing. I hope the evidence they found turns up something. It's way past time for these families to have some closure.
AuntieKaren
08-29-2004, 11:05 PM
Does anyone remember the case of 3 women--2 were mother and daughter, the other was the daughter's friend, who went missing in Springfield, Missouri approximately 15-20 years ago? I don't know names or any other details other than the girls had just graduated from high school, I think, then went to a party, came home (one was spending the night at her friend's house) then they all just vanished. I saw the story on 48 Hours and it has haunted me ever since but not knowing names, I haven't been able to follow up on it. Does anyone remember this? Please let me know if you do.
Thanks-
Karen
Casshew
08-30-2004, 09:19 AM
3 Missing Women (http://www.ci.springfield.mo.us/spd/Miscellanea/3missingwomen.html)
Try that link Karen and see if this is what you are looking for.
englishleigh
08-30-2004, 04:53 PM
Karen, I remember this well. It was in June 1992, I believe. I had a special interest in the case b/c a guy I almost married was from Springfield and I'd been there in December 1990 with him. I don't believe they were ever found. Very sad case. Suzie, Sherrill and Stacy. I never forgot their names b/c they were all S's.
tybee204
08-30-2004, 06:28 PM
I lived in the Springfield area when this occured. The last I heard on it is was that a person of interest was in prison in Texas on unrelated charges and his Attorney was blocking Investigators from Springfield access.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/day1_cox.html
Letters from Robert Fox
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/documents.html
10 Year Overview
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/day1.html
tybee204
08-30-2004, 06:32 PM
Published June 29, 2004
DNA results still awaited in case of missing women
Sample destroyed in the testing.
Greene County Prosecutor Darrell Moore is still waiting for DNA test results he says may advance a 12-year-old investigation into the disappearance of three Springfield women.
On June 7, 1992, Sherrill Levitt, her daughter Suzie Streeter and Streeter's friend, Stacy McCall, vanished from Levitt's home at 1717 E. Delmar St.
The prosecutor said Monday he sent DNA standards of two of the women — he wouldn't say which two — to a forensic lab in New Orleans to be compared with a possible blood sample collected during a March 2003 search in Barry County. The sample was sent to ReliaGene Technologies. Moore won't say from what evidence the sample was pulled
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/0629-DNAresults-122296.html
June 7, 2004: Missing-women case may break
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/0607-Missingwom-106148.html
smile22
08-30-2004, 06:42 PM
there was a simlar story like this there were three women mother sister in law and step daughter who went missing in oklahoma and never were found they were on there way back from visitng her young son and ex husband, her ex husbands family was driving them back since she couldnt drive due to health problems im not sure of the year but i saw it on unsolved mistrys a few months ago i think it took place in the late 80s or early 90s but the ex family in question mantains that we had a lil tif i droped them off at a shoping center and that was that.. but the ex sister in law who claims that, was suposed to meet her brother and nefew at a diner that was 3 hrs away from where the three women lived. she made it there in less than 3 hrs. and what suspicus about that was she took the old 2 lane roads instead of the fast way. i started a thread and i want to help located them i found nuthing online except at doe they have a picture of the missing i think she was 13 at the time girl.. and a mention of her aunt and step mother
AuntieKaren
08-31-2004, 12:56 AM
3 Missing Women (http://www.ci.springfield.mo.us/spd/Miscellanea/3missingwomen.html)
Try that link Karen and see if this is what you are looking for.
Casshew--
That's it! Thanks, you're awesome!
Karen
AuntieKaren
08-31-2004, 01:00 AM
Thanks everyone. Looks like this ended up being another unsolved, cold case.
:(
Karen
miles_draken
10-18-2004, 06:59 PM
remains have been located and the police are awaiting DNA results. I will try to find the link to post.
englishleigh
10-18-2004, 07:21 PM
remains have been located and the police are awaiting DNA results. I will try to find the link to post.
Oh, please let them be Sherrill, Stacy & Suzie!! I've been following this case ever since it first happened. I will anxiously be awaiting a link.
tybee204
10-18-2004, 09:15 PM
I just checked all the news in Springfield and there is nothing about this. Blood found on a farm in Cassville proved not to be related by DNA and bone fragments were more then 100 years old and likely a dog.
I cant find any links on recent discoveries of remains. I called my son that lives in Springfield and he hasnt heard anything about this.
Local Springfield News Links
http://www.news-leader.com
www.ky3.com
http://www.fox27.com/
englishleigh
10-18-2004, 10:26 PM
Thanks, Tybee....I looked myself for an article saying remains had been found but I couldn't find one. Apparently there's been nothing new in this case since June of this year. That disappoints me so much...I pray for some answers for these families.
miles_draken
10-18-2004, 11:15 PM
i apologize, last i knew they were talking of DNA evidence and awaiting results. Last I had heard, glad to know someone is more on top of it than i am, sorry folks!
englishleigh
10-18-2004, 11:22 PM
That's ok, Miles....are you in Springfield?? If so, maybe you can be our lookout for any breaking news on this case?? Thanks.
miles_draken
10-20-2004, 12:40 AM
I lived in Springfield around the time of these disappearances, and still reside in MO, but not close enough to get local news. There have obviously been several theories regarding the case, but it seems to be growing colder and colder. WIth the DNA samples coming back negative as to a match with remains or blood found on a local farm, the special prosecutor on the case will resign from it. Perhaps some "New Blood" on the case will create a spark. Something interesting to note, one theory is that the women fell prey to some laborers who were working on the Cox Medical South parking lot which I believe is quite near their home. Some sources say there was a lot of drug activity around these people. Obviously all three of these women were probably not targeted. The logical thing would be to conclude that Suzanne Streeter was the target and her friend was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the target had been her mother my feeling is they would have struck earlier when she was alone at the house, or if McCall was the target they would have taken her from her own home. I think, and they probably have, that the police need to look in to Suzanne's relationships and anyone knew she was associating with in the months leading up to her abduction. I do believe all three are dead and buried locally, however, if the perpetrator was a traveling labor their working on the medical center he wouldn't know the outer edges of Springfield as well. It seems that whoever took them knew the home, so they'd been there before in all likelihood. It is my belief that the remains are not far from their home, possibly underneath the parking lot that was being poured at the time. I don't have a working knowledge of parking lot pouring, maybe some of you will tell me this is unlikely, I'm not sure. I believe they were killed before dawn and dumped. I do hope there is some closure to this case for the families sake.
miles_draken
10-20-2004, 02:41 PM
Just found an interesting link about the SPringfield three.
http://airalex.homestead.com/MISSING.html
englishleigh
10-20-2004, 02:50 PM
Just found an interesting link about the SPringfield three.
http://airalex.homestead.com/MISSING.html
Wow, Miles, that is incredibly creepy!!! I wish the Springfield police would follow up on it.
miles_draken
03-14-2005, 06:00 PM
Still haven't seen any new evidence in this bizzare case, just giving it a bump hoping someone has new info. Somebody, somewhere knows what happened to these ladies.
miles_draken
05-12-2005, 04:32 PM
Robert Cox is currently the one suspect I know of. He is in jail in Texas and has said he knew something about the Springfield Missing. If you look at the link above the old ladies story is interesting to say the least. I've wanted so bad to go to SPringfield and search these Triangle areas of interest. They are near railroad yards and those are areas not frequently visited by people or changed much. Is it possible three bodies could be buried there?
nowIMnothing
10-17-2005, 01:27 AM
I am writing this because for some reason almost 14 years later this is affecting me more than it has every before. First off to the families and friends I am so sorry for your loses. I feel I am struggling with it now but I can’t imagine how you must have struggled with it over the years now. My name is Cory I am 32 years old and I live in Boise ID. So how does any of this involve me? I was born and raised in Joplin, MO and graduated from JHS in 1992. In early 1990 I went to live with my sister in Springfield, MO. I enrolled @ Kickapoo High School. I only attended that school for a couple months before I went back to Joplin. In that amount of time I wasn’t able to make that many friends but I do remember one her name was “Suzie” We had a few classes together and with in a short time we became friends. I am sure a few people may recall she looked and dressed some what like Marie Fredriksson from the band Roxette. Needless to say I found her attractive and very kind. She was one of the few friends I had in Springfield. In 1992 after I graduated from I school the news had come out about tree missing women their pictures and story had been posted all over. I took a bit but I had soon realized that that Suzanne Streeter was my friend “Suzie”. Her look had changed somewhat so it never dawned on me that this was her. One day I was in Consumers and had bought a few things. When I got home there info was printed on the back of the paper bag. I never had read the detailed descriptions before as I started to read them the article talked about a small tumor on the lower left lip on Suzie (it never stood out it was just a small bump. It was more like a beauty mark & I thought it was cute). Right then it had come to me who it was and my stomach when straight to my throat. Right away I felt guilty for not know that it was her right off. I still feel that way today. I can’t describe how I felt as I am sure many felt the same way as well. Over time as there was less and less to report on and nothing new to go on the case just went away. Over time I thought about it less myself but never really forgot. In 96 I moved to Idaho, not too many people here would have been formilure with it so I never spoke of it. About 2 weeks ago I am driving down the road and I new version of an old song comes on the radio “listen to your heart” by Roxette. All of a sudden it all comes back but this time I can’t stop thinking about it. I can’t talk to anyone about because no one here really knows about it. The more it thought about it I thought I would jump online and see if the was any new news to report about it. I have been doing a lot of reading and have found many stories written but nothing that has brought them home. I still cannot describe how I fell but I still hurt inside as I am sure most do as well. The reason I wrote this was to try to help myself understand why I am feeling the way I am. I still don’t understand it. If anyone reads this and is board by it my apologies, if helps others remember great, if anything I hope it helps keep them alive tell they can come home………… I will never forget you my old friend. I have one question that maybe someone can help me with. In a lot of articles there is mention of two me that worked @ a concrete company. “The women said that two men were employed at the local concrete company that once owned the site near Marshfield, Missouri. The tipsters said that the individuals drove a van similar to the vehicle that may have been used in the missing women's cases. The informants claimed that the men departed Springfield shortly after Sherrill, Suzanne and McCall vanished. Investigators determined that two men did work at the company in 1992, but they were unable to identify the individuals or confirm that they drove a van.”After reading that a few times I found this article. Basically it talks about some parking lot construction going on @ Cox Hospital. Check it out. <?> does anyone know if the concrete company that the two men worked for had any contracts to work with Cox Hospital South in the summer on 1992?????????????????? Check the link out. http://taint.org/pipermail/forteana/2002-March/000135.htmlThis could be old news to everyone else but I have not found anything on it…
partyuv5
10-17-2005, 08:58 AM
As I know Joplin has grown. My Great Uncle is part of the city council.
miles_draken
10-19-2005, 04:35 PM
Still nothing new on this cold case. It baffles me that three women could diappear like this together and never be found. Anyone interested in taking a trip to Springfield and following the old womans preminition described in the link I provided awhile back? I've thought about going there and doing some searching. It would be nice to have an analytical mind or two along to help out this complete novice.
raisincharlie
10-23-2005, 11:23 AM
There has not been much news on this story lately either on the local media or through the news papers. I can tell you however that the parking lot construction issue at Cox Hospital has been investigated rather extensively. The bones found during the dig at the other location have been reported to be animal in nature and not human.
I can also tell you that one of the biggest problems around this neck of the woods is the vast amount of forrested rugged terrain. We have gone on several horseback searches at places all around Springfield down to Branson and into Arkansas and north towards Collins, Clinton and Windsor and parts east and west of these locations. Also, there are numerous old hand dug wells, or cisterns if you prefer, in this area. Many of these cisterns are not documented as they were dug long before well registration requirements. Authorities in this area have done several surveys in rural areas with residents trying to collect data relating to well locations - most have been checked, however I'm rather certain that there are more out there that people may not know even exist on their properties. Additionally, we have extensive karst topography here, caves, springs, and artesian wells everywhere. A major cave system was recently discoved about two years back - been here all this time but only recently discovered and only because of road construction activities.
The triangle areas that you reference near the home are heavily populated areas even along the railroad tracks. These areas have been searched extensively and numerous times. I myself don't put much belief in the bodies being in those areas. As for the gentleman in jail - he is looking for a way out and voluntered much information to local authorities (some of whom I know personnally), none of which panned out. He is destined to serve his jail time as he has told nothing that has been of use or verifiable. Dead ends are the only thing he has ever provided.
I do know that there is no longer "active" day to day workings on this case but occasionally some tip is received and it is checked. Occasionally bodies have been reported by hunters or persons buying property out in the woods. These reports have also been checked. Right now, there is nothing active in terms of reports or searches.
docwho3
10-23-2005, 01:33 PM
DNA results still awaited in case of missing women
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/0629-DNAresults-122296.html
http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=144464
I still wonder about the manner of entry in the abduction.
shelsearay
10-25-2005, 05:48 PM
The rumor the bodies were dumped in a pond in Stockton, MO? Not Lake Stockton, but rural Stockton, MO?
On November 15th 1998, I experienced a life changing vision with Stacy McCall. A complete description of the vision in its entirety can be found at http://users.1st.net/mwells/Visions.htm
In reference to Cox Hospital South, I did receive an email from the Springfield Police Department in August 2004. They told me that they were not aware that it was an area of concern. I did talk with someone who lived across the street from the hospital in 1992. He told me there were open fields around the hospital. He said: "there was a whole lot of nothing."
Ken
miles_draken
11-08-2005, 12:19 PM
All of this is very interesting and makes a good read. I'm talking about the above post and link of the vision. I don't put a whole lot of stock in psychics. It is kinda like when people say Nostrodamus predicted Hitler and 9/11, if he really predicted these things he would have said "Hey there will be this guy named Hitler who kills millions of Jews and terroizes the world" and "There will be two planes crash into the World Trade Center". If somebody really has these psychic visions why doesn't the vision just show them exactly what happened and lead them to the bodies or whereabouts of a missing person? Maybe I'm just cynical. I would think if all this is factual every police station in the country would be stocked with psychic detectives. I hope I'm wrong and all these clues can lead to the three missing women.
During the past year, I had been corresponding with Robert Cox. I wrote him about the vision that I experienced with Stacy McCall. I also mentioned Cox Hospital South. He has written me seven times. In none of his letters to me does he mention any of the women by name. Additionally, I haven't read anything in the media where he uses their names in conversation.
In one of his letters to me, he sent me a four page color insert from a tennis magazine. On the front page, there are two women playing tennis. The headline read: "Let's hear it for their future!" The letter was post marked within one day of Stacy's birthday.
I am one million percent certain that Robert Cox is responsible. I do honestly believe that Cox Hospital South is worth taking a close look at. I found out through research that the place where the Hulston Cancer Center (formerly Cox Medical Plaza II) now sits was an open field in June of 1992.
Robert did state in the media that the women were buried near the 1717 E Delmar crime scene and that they will never be found. I believe he is telling the truth because that was his ego speaking. I believe that it is possible that he may have buried the women at or near a location that bears his name.
Ken
When I experienced the vision with Stacy McCall; I watched a pile of her hair fall from her left shoulder and bounce. Her hair fell from her shoulder one strand at a time. When I type in the word "shoulder" at dictionary.com, one of the definitions that come up is: "a narrow edge of land (usually unpaved) along the side of a road." My understanding is that there was construction that took place on the Cox Hospital South parking lot in 1992.
In his last letter to me, Robert Craig Cox wrote something that captures the imagination: "Sometimes you look too hard at something when nothing is there. Then when the obvious is right in front of you, it's easy to miss."
Was he referring to Stacy's shoulder?
Ken
miles_draken
11-21-2005, 11:44 AM
I don't mean to insult anyone for their beliefs, but if all these visions people have are true why can't they just say "The women are here, and this is what happened to them." I say Sylvia Browne on Montel one day and she answered every one of these crazy questions from the audience about underworld creatures and stuff like that and seemed to be so confident in her answers. Why can't she look at this case and tell us what happened, or all these other cold cases. I'd think if her abilities are genuine that she would be compelled to help out. I just can't believe if people like this can predict the future, and see all these unseeable things that they don't just lay it down so we can understand it. These visions are always like solving a jiggsaw puzzle that is missing too many pieces. As far as Robert Cox is concerned, the man will probably say anything to get a little attention, Prison has got to be boring. Maybe he did it, but why admit to it if it lands him in more hot water?
Marilynilpa
11-21-2005, 11:53 AM
I don't mean to insult anyone for their beliefs, but if all these visions people have are true why can't they just say "The women are here, and this is what happened to them." I say Sylvia Browne on Montel one day and she answered every one of these crazy questions from the audience about underworld creatures and stuff like that and seemed to be so confident in her answers. Why can't she look at this case and tell us what happened, or all these other cold cases. I'd think if her abilities are genuine that she would be compelled to help out. I just can't believe if people like this can predict the future, and see all these unseeable things that they don't just lay it down so we can understand it. These visions are always like solving a jiggsaw puzzle that is missing too many pieces. As far as Robert Cox is concerned, the man will probably say anything to get a little attention, Prison has got to be boring. Maybe he did it, but why admit to it if it lands him in more hot water?
For the most part, I agree with your skepticsm regarding psychics. However, last night I watched one of those "Psychic Detectives" shows. This one dealt with John Wayne Gacy and all of the people he murdered. There was one boy in particular whose body they could not find. A very skeptical policeman allowed a psychic to hold the jacket this young man had been wearing. The jacket had been found in a wall, I believe, in Gacy's house. Anyway, the psychic gave the police some information about where the body would be found, and even specified the date on which it would be discovered.
On the date the psychic had said the body would be found, it was located, and many of the details she had given to the police were accurate.
After watching that show, it's made me curious about whether psychic ability actually might exist in some people. But I agree with you that it's puzzling why they can see some information, but not see all of it. And many times, I've noticed that the psychics give information that is very general in nature (i.e., the body will be found in or near water). Since almost anywhere you go is "near water" (pools, creeks, rivers, streams, water faucets, puddles of water, etc.), the psychic stands a pretty good chance of being right!
Miles does bring up some good points. When you experience a genuine vision, you will experience alot of rejection. It comes with the turf and it's the acid test to determine if a vision is genuine. This is what worries me about Sylvia Browne. Her visions and abilities are oftentimes taken as the Gospel. For me, this brings up serious red flags because it doesn't work that way.
I have seen proof of the existence of God with my own two eyes and I can offer empirical proof. I experienced a detailed vision on April 10th, 1996 that changed the course of my life. The vision is highly detailed and it lasted several minutes. Sometime in the future, the vision will be included with my vision with Stacy which is found at: http://users.1st.net/mwells/Visions.htm
The vision from 1996 is a word for word match with the most profound verse in the Koran. It's called "The Light Verse" (Sura 24:35) and scholars have spent centuries and have written volumes just on this one verse. This vision was rejected not only by Christians, but also by Muslims. Christians have rejected the vision for obvious reasons. Muslims have rejected the vision because I am not Muslim. I am Christian. Hence the double rejection. This is how genuine visions work.
I believe this vision will have something to do with the three missing women. "...Allah guides to His light whom He pleases and He strikes parables for Humankind and of all things He is aware." (Sura 24:35).
As for the vision with Stacy McCall...learn everything you can about Cox Hospital South because I believe the answer lies there.
Ken
On April 10th 1996, I was awakened out of my sleep by a flash of light. I was lying on my right side and I opened my eyes. I could see in the reflection of my bedroom window that something was most definitely behind me. I quickly turned over and I saw a lamp.
The lamp was an inch from my face. It was about a foot tall, cylindrical, and it was transparent as if it were made of glass. There was an orange filament that ran from top to bottom. The lamp emitted a perfect orange light. The light was blinding. It was like looking at the sun, but it didn't hurt my eyes.
The lamp slowly moved away from me and stopped at the edge of my bed. I was lying on my left side and I had all of my faculties. I could have touched the lamp if I wanted to. However, something told me not to touch the lamp, so I didn't. The lamp then continued towards the center of my bedroom and it came to a stop. Simultaneously as the lamp disappeared, a circle of fire appeared in its place.
The circle was about 4 feet in diameter. I could see the carpet designs inside the circle. However, everything outside of the circle was pitch-black. I couldn't see anything. Next, a wave of fire emanated from the center of the circle. It was like throwing a pebble into a pond, except that it was fire. The fire had height to it. The base flames were orange and the tips of the flames were blue. I could hear the waves of fire. They sounded like waves from an ocean. When the first wave of fire reached the perimeter of the circle; a second wave of fire emanated from the center of the circle. It was as if the second wave were chasing the first wave. During this time, I was sitting on the edge of my bed and I was pinching myself. I said outloud: "I am not dreaming this. This is really happening to me."
When the second wave of fire reached the perimeter of the circle, the circle of fire disappeared. Simultaneoulsy as the circle disappeared, a candle appeared by my bedside. The candle was to my left and just out of my line of vision. At this point, I had backed up onto my bed because I was scared.
The light from the candle lit up the southwest corner of my bedroom (my right hand side). The light on the walls was beautiful. It was mesmerizing. It was as if one were reading a book by candlelight. Next, the candle started to move towards the center of my bedroom where the circle of fire and lamp had been. When it came into view, the candle was a small white candle that was in a black urn with two handles. One handle on each side. The flame was a tall yellow flame. There was gold Arabic writing on the black urn.
The black urn continued to move towards the center of my bedroom. At one point, it disappeared and reappeared as if it were passing through a barrier of some type. The tall yellow flame was similar to a torch flame. When the black urn reached the center of my bedroom, it came to a stop. Next, it started to sink into my bedroom floor.
After the black urn completely sank into my bedroom floor, my room went pitch-black. Several moments later, I felt the word "Fire" and it shook my body. It was a powerful force and it went right through me. It came from above me. To say that I heard the word "Fire" would be an understatement.
Next, I walked into my living room in red lights, my clock displayed the time. It was 6:00 am. I turned on my living room lamp and I picked up my Bible and I started to read it. I was just visited by the Holy Spirit.
This vision has alot to do with Stacy McCall.
To be continued...
Ken
The difference in time between the vision from the Koran (4-10-1996) and the vision with Stacy McCall (11-15-1998) was exactly 2 years, 7 months, and 5 days. So, 2 years, 7 months, and 5 days after my vision from the Koran, I experienced a vision with one of the 3 missing women. This numerically spells out 2-7-5-3, which just happens to be her family's current address in the exact order.
The difference in time between June 7th, 1992 and the date that Stacy visited me, November 15th, 1998, is exactly 6 years, 5 months, and 8 days. I experienced the vision with her at just after 4 am. This numerically spells out
6-5-8-0-4, which is her zip code in the exact order. So, she gave me her family's address and zip code at the time that I experienced the vision with her.
In early 2004, I realized something. At the time Stacy disappeared, her address was 843 E. Meadowlark Street. So, when I counted 8 years, 4 months, and 3 days from April 10th, 1996, this gave a date of August 13th, 2004. I knew that something profound would happen or begin on that date. However, I didn't know what it would be. I told many people about that date in advance. Also, the date of April 10th, was 8 days after Mr. McCall's birthdate of April 2nd and it was 13 days before Stacy's This gave another indication of 8-13.
On August 13th, 2004, the first of four hurricanes slammed into Florida. When they did, they numerically spelled out Mr. McCall's birthdate of 4-2-43 in the exact order*. Charley was a category 4, Frances was a 2, Ivan was a 4, and Jeanne was a 3.
* Officially, Ivan was classified in December 2004 as a category 3 because it's windspeed at landfall missed being a category 4 by one mile per hour. However, the pressure inside the eyewall was 943 millibars, which is the equivalent of a category 4 hurricane. Also, the damage that was caused by Ivan was typical of a category 4 hurricane, not a category 3.
Ken
When I experienced the vision from the Koran on April 10th, 1996, my dad was in the other room sleeping. Seven years later on Father's Day, June 15th, 2003, the meaning of the vision was revealed to me. This occurred exactly 4 years and 7 months after my vision with Stacy McCall.
In May of 2003, Pat Brown emailed me and told me that she was coming to Ann Arbor, Michigan to do a book signing. She wanted to meet me in person. She had written a book called: "Killing For Sport" and she was promoting it.
Pat is a criminal profiler and I had known her since 1999, when we first met online. I did tell her about the vision from the Koran. However, I never told her about my dad being in the other room. I didn't think it was important, so I didn't mention it. Well, she picked the date that we would meet; Sunday, June 15th, 2003...Father's Day. I was blown away.
Meanwhile, my aunt was taking a religion class at college and she asked me to write about my vision so that her teacher could analyze it. So, I wrote a one page paper about my vision.
On Sunday, June 15th, I was at my aunt's house and we were getting ready to drive to Ann Arbor to meet Pat Brown. My aunt Cheri approached me and showed me something. She pulled out her workbook and showed me that my vision was from the Koran.
An hour later, we arrived in Ann Arbor and I met Pat Brown in person at Border's bookstore. We were seated while Pat was talking about her book and some cases. During Pat's presentation, my aunt noticed something. Right behind us was a book display. The book was called: "Islam For Dummies." I turned to my aunt and I said: "Wouldn't ya know it!"
During the fall of 2003, I had written several mosques about the vision from the Koran. I got a response from an author in the United Kingdom. The person in charge of that mosque was an author who had written over 200 books on the subject of Islam. When he wrote me, he said:"Welcome Home, We have been waiting for you." At first, they thought that I could be the Mahdi. When they found out that I was Chrisitian, they stopped communicating with me.
Next, I contacted the Director of the Islamic Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan. His name is Ratib Habbal. He analyzed my vision and compared it with Sura 24:35. He told me it was a match. He had a difficult time accepting that I was Christian. When I started asking Islamic Theological questions that he couldn't answer; he stopped communicating with me.
Ken
On Sunday morning, June 4th, 2000 at 8:00 am, I was awakened out of my sleep by a knock at my front door. It was the police. They were answering a 911 call from my house. I let the officers in and explained that I didn't call 911. I had no reason to. They searched my house and took down my name and they left.
Later on that afternoon, there was another knock at my front door. It was the police. They were answering another 911 call from my house. I let them in and explained what happened earlier that morning. They told me to call the phone company because there could be a problem with my phone line, then they left. So, I called the phone company. The phone company called back and told me that my phone line was fine and that the problem is with my phone.
So, I disconnected my phone from the phone jack and left it that way. I knew it was going to happen again, and it did. On the afternoon of June 5th, there was a knock at my front door. It was the police. They were answering yet another 911 call from my house. I asked one of the officers:"How long ago did the call come in?" He told me: "A few minutes ago." Next, I asked him: "Did anybody physically pick up the phone and make the call?" The officer replied: "It was a one-second hang up call and it came from your phone line!" I replied: "That's impossible!" I showed the officers the disconnected phone.
They told me to call the phone company and have them fix the problem. They were quite upset when they left. So, I called the phone company again. They shut off my phone for a few days and they sent someone out to fix the problem. I haven't had it since. However, a year later on July 17th, 2001, it happened to my aunt. She was coming home from school and she found the police and fire department at her house answering a 911 call. There was nobody home. She called me up and she freaked out on me.
On June 19th, 2004 it was published in the media that the original 9/11 plan was hatched in 1996. The original plan called for using 10 planes instead of 4.
This was the date of my vision...4/10/1996
On November 9th, 2004, I discovered that an urn with fire coming out of it is symbolic for only one religion...Zoroastrianism. The origins of Zoroastrianism dates back to what is now modern day Iran. Based on my vision, I believe there will be a major conflict with Iran in the near future. This is supported by the Bible in Jeremiah 51:11 and Isaiah 13:17.
Ken
laini
11-26-2005, 02:30 AM
I'm sorry, but is this a joke? Can we stick to websleuthing? Thanks.
On July 30th, 2001, I was contacted online by someone who claims to be a witness. According to what he told me, there was a van that was pulled off to the side of the road. Stacy McCall and Sherrill Levitt were outside the van. There were two men and both of them had guns. This witness claims to have been as close as 8 feet away.
The van had so much junk in it that the women had to be transported while kneeling. The van had a Pennsylvania license plate.
According to what he told me in 2001, Stacy walked up to one of the men to ask him a question. He started beating her. He kept beating her until she stopped moving. Sherrill was next. After that he ran and the only person that was still alive at that time was Suzie.
He was interviewed via telephone by a criminal profiler that I know. She interviewed him for about 4 hours. She told me that his story seems to ring true. However, she did tell me that he refuses to take a polygraph test and he refuses to cooperate with the police.
I have been talking with him on and off since that time. One time he told me that: "Stacy went like a lamb to slaughter." He claims that he "forgot" the license plate numbers. However, he refuses to go under hypnosis to possibly retrieve the license plate numbers.
In the past year, his story has changed a bit. Now, the women are beaten to death while they are in the van while it is moving. He is following the van in his white Thunderbird convertible. The order is still the same. It's Stacy, then Sherrill, then Suzie.
He did tell me that he couldn't go to the Springfield Police because they could not guarantee his safety.
I wrote Robert Craig Cox and described what this witness had seen. Robert wrote back in a couple of letters to me that he was interested in the "transcripts" of what this witness had seen.
BTW...no Laini, this is not a joke. Please see http://users.1st.net/mwells/Visions.htm
for a complete description of my vision with Stacy McCall.
Laini, it would be nice to see a posting about your proactive involvement in the websleuthing aspects of this case. Thanks.
Ken
laini
11-26-2005, 07:16 PM
Well, I think this has probably ended this discussion for awhile. Thanks.
Ken, I don't consider your "visions and superstitions"to be proactive involvement. But okay, you have the floor now. I will ignore your posts as they truely annoy me. If you have the answers, that's great. Why don't you tell the police. This is about the crime and it needs to be solved.
laini
miles_draken
11-27-2005, 12:15 AM
This whole vision thing Ken is speaking of sounds like an "end of the world" type thing in it's tone. I agree that there are three women missing who need to be found. Ken if you are truly a "ghost whisperer" please give the police the concrete evidence neccessary to solve this tragedy. Answering a riddle with a puzzle isn't helping anyone.
I did contact the Springfield Police in June of 2002 and August of 2004. They did respond back in August 2004 stating that they were not aware that Cox Hospital South was an area of concern. My understanding from the email is that they never investigated that area.
They did indicate in the email that they would consider checking into it.
However, there is a whole lot of concrete there and they are understaffed. Not a pretty combination.
Ken
I hope this isn't a complete surprise, however we are living in the end times just before Christ's return. For example, the President of Iran stated that he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the map. This is Bible Prophecy. This is found in Psalm 83:4. This shouldn't be a surprise. There is also going to be a showdown with Iran in the near future. This is found in Jeremiah 51:11 and Isaiah 13:17. So, it shouldn't be a surprise to hear about Iran in the news.
So, what does this have to do with the three missing women? This is where it gets interesting...
When you do a Google search about missing people; you are going to find millions upon millions of them. The list is endless. It's nearly infinite.
What if God picked just one case to teach the world a lesson about missing people? What if he chose the three missing women to be the example?
Luke 21:11 "...and great signs shall there be from Heaven."
This verse does not say "from the heavens above." It says "From Heaven."
"Your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams." (Acts 2:17 and Joel 2:28 ).
Ironically, my last name is Young. When I experienced my vision from the Koran, I was 30 years old. Zoroaster was 30 when he experienced his first vision, so I guess I am in good company. My dream is to find Stacy McCall. I want to know what it's like when everything falls into place. I know that it will because I am 40 years old (an old man) and the Bible says that I will "dream dreams."
I do have strong reason to believe the three missing women case will be solved in the near future. Additionally, I personally believe it will involve proof of the existence of God and that it will impact the entire planet.
Robert Craig Cox has stated in the media that the three missing women "will never be found."
The future just may prove him wrong...
Ken
miles_draken
11-27-2005, 06:41 PM
Well this has officially turned into the Nostrodamus thread.
Hi Miles,
Have you considered taking a trip to Springfield to research Cox Hospital South?
You mentioned in an earlier post that you were considering doing research on the cisterns and triangles in Springfield.
Just curious...
Ken
Hi Laini,
Have you ever considered corresponding with Robert Cox? With your websleuthing skills, I believe you may have a shot at getting him to open up.
In his last letter to me, this is what he wrote:
Ken,
Happy Birthday! You have been on my mind and I wasn't surprised when your letter came. The weather here is hot and humid. Looking forward to cooler weather.
Still trying to obtain the funds for a typewriter. Hopefully by Christmas. I have made up my mind to wait for a typewriter before I'll comment on your questions and thoughts. If I don't get a typewriter then maybe it's a sign.
Money is tight. But I still have your stamps to write you over the next decade. So be patient, I will not forget you.
As for the tennis magazine insert, It was nothing but filler to ensure that my note didn't fall out. Sometimes you look too hard at something when nothing is there. Then when the obvious is right in front of you, it's easy to miss.
In your last letter you mentioned a photograph of yourself. I would be interested in seeing a picture of you.
Back to the typewriter. No, they won't allow anyone to donate one. I'm surprised that they still sell them to us.
Hope your Birthday will be a good one.
Until next time...
R (he underlines his initial twice)
tybee204
11-28-2005, 12:43 AM
My son and daughter still live in Springfield. I will be there for 3 weeks in March for the birth of my grandson.
If there is any information you want me to check let me know.
miles_draken
11-28-2005, 10:42 AM
I had considered looking per the old lady's vision. However, the reason I say this is turning into a Nostrodamus thread is because of the "end of the world" talk that has begun. It discredits every preacher I hear when they say the end is near, and so it naturally discredits any "visionary" as well. They've been screaming "end times" since the beginning of time. Nobody knows when or how or why it will all end. And I certainly don't believe the three missing women case will be involved with the end of the world. There are far too many missing case just as perplexing as this one. I don't mean to argue or fight, I'm sure you believe what you believe, as do I. The title of the site, however, is Websleuths, not WebPshycicInvestigatorsOfEndTimes.
Just my opinion. Now back to the case.
Hi Miles,
I need a favor...
Back in March of 1996, Reporter Dennis Graves from KYTV Channel 3 did a prison interview with Robert Cox. On their website, they have an archives section where you can request achived footage or pictures.
This past year, I requested the footage from the Robert Cox interview. Of course, they asked me a few questions and they gave me the cold shoulder. It may have to do with my abrasive personality.
You seem amiable enough. If you were to kindly ask them for the footage, they may hand over the Rosetta Stone to you. It's worth a shot and it would be much appreciated.
The picture of Robert Cox on Alex's website is courtesy of yours truly. I requested his picture from the Florida Department of Corrections. I was quite surprised when they actually sent me his picture. I forwarded his picture to Alex to be posted for all to see. It's only picture of him currently on the internet.
When I saw his picture for the first time, it really hit me hard. He strongly resembles me. I never in my life imagined that he would strongly resemble me.
Miles, if you could locate more pictures or footage of Robert Cox, again it would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
Ken
Hi Tybee,
While in Springfield, I would appreciate any info that you can gather about the Hulston Cancer Center (Formerly Cox Medical Plaza II) and it's surrounding area including the parking lot.
If you could take some pictures of the hospital and it's surrounding area that would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
Ken
mysteriew
11-28-2005, 07:25 PM
The picture of Robert Cox on Alex's website is courtesy of yours truly. I requested his picture from the Florida Department of Corrections. I was quite surprised when they actually sent me his picture. I forwarded his picture to Alex to be posted for all to see. It's only picture of him currently on the internet.
Miles, if you could locate more pictures or footage of Robert Cox, again it would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
Ken
Ken, if you are in contact with him, why don't you ask him for a picture.
Here is the link to Alex's site for any who wish it.
http://www.homestead.com/airalex/COX.html
And I found this article about Cox that I thought you might be interested in. It gives info about correspondence with Cox.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/day1_cox.html
The Texas Department of Corrections doesn't give out any pictures of it's inmates past or present. However, I never thought of asking Robert for his picture.
I did break off contact with him at the end of August. At that point, I had written him 19 times. He had written me 7 times. I told him that I wasn't going to write him anymore.
However, I have been mulling over re-starting correspondence with him. He has told me that he is interested in typing his letters to me. I may be able to convince him write a "Mein Kaumpf" type of manuscript that may possibly yield some clues. It may be worth the investment of $95 if he is willing to talk.
Before I agree to do that, I am going to have him write Stacy's full name in his own handwriting. That is what I want from him. I have something he wants. He has something that I want.
I believe that if I can get him to write her name in his own handwriting, it could be the first crack in the armor. It's possible that it could get him to open up.
Of course, if he doesn't write her full name, there is no typewriter.
In my last couple of letters to him, I ended them as follows:
On behalf of Stacy McCall,
Ken
I just mailed out my 20th letter to Robert Cox. I offered to send him the money to purchase a typewriter. There is one catch. In exchange, he must agree to write Stacy's full name in his own handwriting. I have something he wants and he has something that I want. This could get interesting...
I received the following letter from Robert Cox...
Ken,
Received your letter.
I am enclosing your requests for some money slips. I appreciate you wanting to help me out.
Not really sure what the deal is with Stacey Kathleen McCall is, but you seem to think its important.
I will be looking for your next letter. Hope you had a Happy Holiday Season. I need to get this out in the mail before they raise the postage rate to 39 cents.
Happy New Year!
R
(he doesn't underline his initial)
airalex
01-15-2006, 10:58 AM
I received the following letter from Robert Cox...
Ken,
Received your letter.
I am enclosing your requests for some money slips. I appreciate you wanting to help me out.
Not really sure what the deal is with Stacey Kathleen McCall is, but you seem to think its important.
I will be looking for your next letter. Hope you had a Happy Holiday Season. I need to get this out in the mail before they raise the postage rate to 39 cents.
Happy New Year!
R
(he doesn't underline his initial)
Hi I'm Alex from the Missing Women page.
airalex.homestead.com/missing.html
I am not sure exactly how to work these forums, never did one before, but I want to let the folks know I am reachable for questions about my experience with old woman who told us about the triangle, and about the ground searches my little son and I did in SPR MO. [we didn't find anything, but everywhere we looked there were landmarks and topographical features that were a lot like the place the old psychic described]and I would also like to mention that Ken is about the only person actively investigating the case, and has made me aware of a lot of real data as well as the psychic stuff. He somehow got a photo of Robert Cox, and has kept me informed as to his correspondence with him. I still have a Cox letter he sent me to look at. He himself doesn't understand everything he "sees" but he is real good with detailed memory, and then other psychics like Bonnie Wells can help him sort it out. she fixed up a page for him[and mentions me, too!] The thing we all have in common is this case has a way of grabbing you and you just have to know what happened to the 3 missing women. We all want to solve the case, and none of us wants the reward. You can't hurt Ken's feelings about his experiences, and he is essentially being helpful. Maybe someone can make sense of some of it. Ken is a real nice fellow, and he is a bird in this world. He does run on sometimes, I think in order to be completely candid, and wants to get all the details down. I am originally from Virginia Beach, VA which is the home of the Edgar cayce foundation. Now THAT boy was SPOOKY! My wife is too, a little and I wish I could say I was, but I just can't, oh me of little faith. There is a huge library of impressions uttered by the "sleeping prophet" and the solution to many mysteries might be archived there, as Cayce seemed to transcend time and space. I just don't know how you access the info. If you visit my site, please sign the guest book, it is sort of a running conversation, too.
I just received the following letter from Robert...
Ken,
Thought I would drop you a quick letter. I was listening to the news tonight and heard about the snow and cold weather you were having in Michigan. Brrr...!! It has been very warm here. It was in the 70's yesterday.
Won't be long before baseball season starts again. I do enjoy listening to the games. Right now it seems the olympics are the feature sports.
Also wanted to let you know that the process has began. Won't be long before our correspondence will become interesting. I know you are looking forward to that. This year will give both of us something to think about. So be patient!
Hope you are doing well. If you happen to move before my next letter be sure to let me know. Are you still working as a telemarketer? I would like to hear more about your Job and what you try to sell over the phone. Obviously you are quite good at it to be paid so well.
I don't think I answered one of your questions from a recent letter. You had asked if I had ever considered writing a novel. I believe most people at one time in their life ponder the thought of writing a book. At this time in my life I am not interested in writing a book. Currently the laws prevent someone from making money writing about their crimes. It doesn't prevent someone else from doing it. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one to do it.
I'll close on that thought.
R (capital letter - he doesn't underline his initial).
miles_draken
06-07-2006, 09:57 PM
Any new news on this case recently?? How do all these people keep disappearing and we never know what happened? Very frustrating. Someone needs to go to Springfield with a camera crew and shoot a documentary! Everything is solvable!
MaryLiz
06-08-2006, 07:35 AM
I just checked the Springfield News-Leader last week and there is nothing. I usually try to do some checking once a month on this one and a couple other cases. According to what I could find in the Springfield newspaper, there hasn't been anything new since 2004. I would think the paper would be one of the first to have any updates as well as Doe and Charley Project. I would LOVE if if someone went there and made a documentary. I can't believe they can't solve this one either!
:banghead:
SadieJane
07-07-2006, 02:37 AM
Thinking about this case today. It's unbelievable to imagine 2 families suffering for so long. I wish their disappearances had been taken more seriously at the beginning. Maybe things would be different now.
I just read a short story that I think was based on this case (Missing Women by June Spence; it's included in several anthologies). An interesting take on the town's reactions to these terrible disappearance (Spence worked at a newspaper in Springfield in 1992).
ssarahann
07-14-2006, 12:03 AM
As I recall, during the time frame that the 3 women went missing a large portion of the James River Freeway was being built to the south of Cox medical center and west of Remingtons night club. Has anyone heard/read anything about the police dept investigating that area?
There is a point of interest in Springfield. It's the Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage. On April 18th, a certain spot in the garage was scanned using a prototype technology. That scan indicated the presence of three sets of ovaries, dental work, hair, and jewelry. On June 16th, a second independent scan using ground penetrating radar was done. That scan indicated the presence of three sets of graves under concrete. The second scan was recorded on video. It's 12 minutes long and it was given to the Springfield Police Department. The data was also recorded on computer harddrive. Both scans were done independently of each other by two different people.
MaryLiz
07-14-2006, 07:16 AM
Wow..that's interesting. I have been checking the Springfield newspaper and haven't found anything recent in there about them. I know they were thinking of that parking garage as an area of interest..isn't that across the street from Sherill Levitt's house where they disappeared from? I sure hope this lead pans out so they can find them! Thanks for the update.
raisincharlie
07-14-2006, 10:13 AM
Wow..that's interesting. I have been checking the Springfield newspaper and haven't found anything recent in there about them. I know they were thinking of that parking garage as an area of interest..isn't that across the street from Sherill Levitt's house where they disappeared from? I sure hope this lead pans out so they can find them! Thanks for the update.
Liz,
These ladies disappeared from 1717 E. Delmar Street which is northeast and just over 2 miles from the location of the Hulston Cancer Center at 3850 S. National Ave as the crow flies. Driving from Delmar to the location of the referenced area would be more like 3 miles. The area around Delmar Street is primarily residential. The area around the Hulston Cancer Center (S. National at 360 - the James River Freeway) back in 1992 was an area containing hospitals (Cox South and Doctor's Hospital) and several other office type buildings occupied by various doctors (Smith Glenn Calloway etc.). If you go to Map Quest and enter either of these address you will be able to see the distances quite easily.
Of interest is that the freeway was complete to Kansas Expressway in 1992, no additional extension of this freeway was undertaken until 2002 - so there is no chance the bodies would be under the freeway. Also of note is according to Greene County Assessment records, 120,000 square feet of asphalt paving was placed on the Cox property (Hulston Cancer Center) in 1990. Link:http://www.greenecountyassessor.org/Datalets.asp?gsp=Oby_nh&mnu=PSearch&submnu=OutBuildings&pin=1907209006&cp=1&tp=1&Data1=
Having lived in this area for most of my adult life and knowing when things were built, I have serious doubts that these three ladies are buried under any asphalt paving or any freeway systems around town.
There has been no recent reporting on this case for some time now, however I can tell you that everytime bones are found anywhere in the area, they do run DNA tests to check. I can tell you that the area around Springfield is very rural with lots of hills and valleys, lots of heavily wooded areas, rivers and creek beds with steep bluffs, as well as state forests.
If I hear of anything I will post it for you here. Believe me it is still a topic of discussion in this neck of the woods.
miles_draken
07-14-2006, 10:51 AM
Ken, I remember that you made some pshycic claims to have had 'visions' of one of these women. I'm curious where your information about the findings from the ground radar came from. I can't find an article verifying this. I also understand you have been in correspondance with Robert Craig Cox in Texas, any new information to report there?
I think these women will be found by accidental discovery and not from some premonition or pshycic scent. I've read recently some accounts that wonder if they are alive, I don't personally see how this could be possible. To hold a person in captivity in this country for thirteen years is not unheard of, but to hold three women would seem to me quite a feet.
The Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage was built beginning in September of 1993. If it is true the women are buried there, then we cannot account for their whereabouts for about 15 months. My understanding is that the Springfield Police are seriously reviewing the data from the second scan. That scan does indicate the presence of three graves. The person who did the second scan said off camera there are three sets of skulls, three backbones, and three sets of extremities. No, you won't find anything in the media about this as of yet. That may change in the near future. Of course if this is true, it does make my vision with Stacy McCall a genuine authentic vision. Personally, I can't wait until that happens.
MaryLiz
07-15-2006, 10:15 AM
I agree that something should be in the newspaper about the scans as it would be of great interest to many people. And who did the scans? It obviously wasn't the Springfield Police if Ken said they were reviewing the second scan.
The News-Leader has an archived section of all articles on this case. Here is the website to get to one of the articles.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/families060902.html
Below the article they have past articles you can click on and then below that there is a section called Multimedia. Down where it says Video, Three Missing Women, the Beginning of a Mystery, there is a compilation video of all the headlines and images from the disappearance. It's very haunting to watch the video and listen to the music. I'm sure most of you have already seen it but it still is very chilling.
MaryLiz
07-15-2006, 10:26 AM
Liz,
These ladies disappeared from 1717 E. Delmar Street which is northeast and just over 2 miles from the location of the Hulston Cancer Center at 3850 S. National Ave as the crow flies. Driving from Delmar to the location of the referenced area would be more like 3 miles. The area around Delmar Street is primarily residential. The area around the Hulston Cancer Center (S. National at 360 - the James River Freeway) back in 1992 was an area containing hospitals (Cox South and Doctor's Hospital) and several other office type buildings occupied by various doctors (Smith Glenn Calloway etc.). If you go to Map Quest and enter either of these address you will be able to see the distances quite easily.
Of interest is that the freeway was complete to Kansas Expressway in 1992, no additional extension of this freeway was undertaken until 2002 - so there is no chance the bodies would be under the freeway. Also of note is according to Greene County Assessment records, 120,000 square feet of asphalt paving was placed on the Cox property (Hulston Cancer Center) in 1990. Link:http://www.greenecountyassessor.org/Datalets.asp?gsp=Oby_nh&mnu=PSearch&submnu=OutBuildings&pin=1907209006&cp=1&tp=1&Data1=
Having lived in this area for most of my adult life and knowing when things were built, I have serious doubts that these three ladies are buried under any asphalt paving or any freeway systems around town.
There has been no recent reporting on this case for some time now, however I can tell you that everytime bones are found anywhere in the area, they do run DNA tests to check. I can tell you that the area around Springfield is very rural with lots of hills and valleys, lots of heavily wooded areas, rivers and creek beds with steep bluffs, as well as state forests.
If I hear of anything I will post it for you here. Believe me it is still a topic of discussion in this neck of the woods.
Thanks raisincharlie for the info...I can believe it is still a hot topic for discussion around the area. It's just so baffling...I haven't read some of the past articles in depth for a while but do you know if many people believe that Robert Craig Cox was responsible for their disappearance or that he really knows what happened? The last I remember reading he was in prison in Texas for something else. I'll have to re-read them all again when I have time but I can't remember what the general concensus was about him. Thanks again!
My partner is a reporter in Springfield. She videotaped the second scan that was given to the Springfield Police. At this time, I can't tell you her name or the name of the person who did the second scan. However, I can tell you the name of the person who did the first scan. His name is Tim Gray.
On April 18th, my partner called me and told me that Tim found a point of interest in the Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage. I was numb with excitement. When he came to Springfield, we had around 12 areas lined up for him to look at with his instrument. Mine was the 3rd one on his list. He told me that he found the three graves just four hours after arriving in Springfield.
On June 16th, a second independent scan was done using ground penetrating radar to confirm Tim's original findings. In fact, I am meeting with Tim Gray this evening for the first time - in person.
The exact spot in question is the basement of the Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage underneath the first floor ramp. Both scans indicate the presence of three graves under virgin concrete. The second scan indicates the presence of three graves between 1.9 and 3 feet deep under concrete.
Right now, we are anticipating that an excavation will be taking place by sometime in August to rule in or rule out this exact spot. My partner did tell me that she is considering taking the videotape to the national media.
miles_draken
07-18-2006, 04:35 PM
Again, I'm not trying to run anyones beliefs down, but Ken I know you are a self-professed psychic. The vision you had cannot be proved or disproved by anyone, and it seems now there is this scan with ground penetrating radar that found three graves that nobody can seem to verify either. I go back to an earlier statement when I said that I believe if a psychic would come forward and say this person is in x place and so and so did it with this weapon and actually solved it then the entire profession would gain credibility. But that doesn't happen, you have Sylvia Browne coming on Montel twice a year talking about knomes and underworld beings and then you are supposed to trust her enough to shell out $1600 for a phone reading with her. It's a bogus religion right now as far as most law enforcement is concerned.
It makes for interesting stories and good tv, but where are these three women, where is Natalie Holloway, where is Tara Grinstead, where is Jodie Husentruit, where is Johnny Gosch, and the thousands of other high profile cases that come across these boards. Why can't any of these psychics find these people.
It all has to be extremely cryptic and open to interpretation. Your vision, with all do respect Ken, was so vague that you could backtrack if these girls are found and attach credibility to everything you said due to the vagueness of it. I know your interpretation was that she was dead and had been sexually assaulted, that's almost a given in this case. I would just ask for one psychic to come forward with plain english explanations of a cold case and solve the friggin' thing and bring a tiny bit of credibility to what is nothing more, in my opinion, than a religion.
Sorry to rant, Ken, I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. I just wish you were a great psychic too and could solve all these cases. You'd be worth millions my friend.
The message that Stacy McCall gave me is as follows: "Right in back of Cox Hospital South; while facing west, it's the building (area) to the left." I wrote the Springfield Police in 2002 and again in 2004 specifically about the Hulston Cancer Center and surrounding area.
Please see http://users.1st.net/mwells/visions.htm for information about how I reached that conclusion.
Miles, If the three missing women are buried in the basement of the Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage underneath the first floor ramp, it makes my vision with Stacy McCall authentic. Period.
laini
07-19-2006, 12:17 AM
Again, I'm not trying to run anyones beliefs down, but Ken I know you are a self-professed psychic. The vision you had cannot be proved or disproved by anyone, and it seems now there is this scan with ground penetrating radar that found three graves that nobody can seem to verify either. I go back to an earlier statement when I said that I believe if a psychic would come forward and say this person is in x place and so and so did it with this weapon and actually solved it then the entire profession would gain credibility. But that doesn't happen, you have Sylvia Browne coming on Montel twice a year talking about knomes and underworld beings and then you are supposed to trust her enough to shell out $1600 for a phone reading with her. It's a bogus religion right now as far as most law enforcement is concerned.
It makes for interesting stories and good tv, but where are these three women, where is Natalie Holloway, where is Tara Grinstead, where is Jodie Husentruit, where is Johnny Gosch, and the thousands of other high profile cases that come across these boards. Why can't any of these psychics find these people.
It all has to be extremely cryptic and open to interpretation. Your vision, with all do respect Ken, was so vague that you could backtrack if these girls are found and attach credibility to everything you said due to the vagueness of it. I know your interpretation was that she was dead and had been sexually assaulted, that's almost a given in this case. I would just ask for one psychic to come forward with plain english explanations of a cold case and solve the friggin' thing and bring a tiny bit of credibility to what is nothing more, in my opinion, than a religion.
Sorry to rant, Ken, I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. I just wish you were a great psychic too and could solve all these cases. You'd be worth millions my friend.
Well said!!
Miles,
I have never ever intepreted my own vision stating that Stacy was sexually assaulted. You have mis-quoted me.
miles_draken
07-19-2006, 03:46 PM
I apologize Ken, I will re-read the original post as soon as I can. I never meant to misquote you, and contrary to what you might think I wasn't running you down for your beliefs either. What I'm saying is just a mainstream view, or what I percieve to be the mainstream view toward this sort of thing right now. I am curious how the Springfield police recieved your information. Were they interested or did they seem to just blow it off? And you said something about the radar showing traces of ovaries? i believe you said, in addition to the grave, can it really detect that? I'm just asking because I have no knowledge of how it works.
englishleigh
08-20-2006, 11:38 AM
There have been human remains found in a rural yard in western MO. It is believed they are drug murders. Is there any possibility that some of these remains (of 2-6 people) could be our Springfield Three?
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=5302609
miles_draken
08-20-2006, 12:34 PM
Interesting possibility. It is a few hours from Springfield and I had heard about this case last night but never thought it might be their final resting place. My first instinct is no, because it appears drug related and I don't think the missing women from Springfield had anything to do with drugs, but who knows. We'll have to watch this case with more interest now.
MaryLiz
08-20-2006, 07:54 PM
There have been human remains found in a rural yard in western MO. It is believed they are drug murders. Is there any possibility that some of these remains (of 2-6 people) could be our Springfield Three?
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=5302609
I thought of them too when I first heard about this...it sounds like the people buried there had actually gone to this guy's house for drug deals though so in all probability the Springfield Three aren't among the people who are buried there. :(
I hope I'm wrong though!
The following is from my partner in Springfield. This is in reference to the Hulston Cancer Center Parking Garage...
From Kathee Baird - Friday, 9/1/06 - Yes, it is true that the Greene County Prosecutor's office, as well as the Springfield police department (i.e. Cpl. Greg Higdon) have seen and are in possession of the said video tape. The prosecutor's office has been receptive to everything that has been shared with them. Greg Higdon on the other hand has been dragging his feet. I am prepared to go over Cpl. Higdon's head as I have a call in to his direct supervisor, and am waiting to hear back from him. It has been almost five months now that the police department has known about the spot and continue to do nothing!!! It is an outrage....and quite frankly I am running out of patience. With the help of Alex, Ken and Bonnie as well as our GPR people we have done most of the Springfield police department's homework for them. The reason that we did not post anything earlier was that we wanted to work with the police, so that they were able to build as solid a case for conviction that they could and not turn this into a media circus for them. Oh well, they had their chance. I ask anyone who thinks that this spot needs to be looked at to call Cpl. Higdon at 417-864-1768, or you may e-mail me at meyer_news@hotmail.com. P.S. A friend of mine in the television media has a copy of the tape as well!!
BuddyMidwest
11-21-2006, 08:33 AM
Ken - anything new to report on progress? I live in Springfield and drive by Cox South every day on my way to and from work.
Hi Buddy,
A high ranking official has told us that he wants to have this lead resolved by the beginning of December. If everything falls into place, Christmas will be arriving early this year.
Ken
Missouri Mule
12-21-2006, 11:30 PM
I followed this case very closely in 1992 as I lived in Springfield for some 26 years. I believe I may have some worthwhile contributions to offer. If there is anyone with personal knowledge of material facts I would be interested in knowing what they may be.
Without going into detail at this time, I would like to offer an informed opinion. This case will not be solved unless an outside experienced investigator is called into review the case. I base this assessment on my own experience with the Springfield Police Department at the time it was a "hot" case in 1992. I will flesh this out in later posts if this thread further develops as I hope it will.
As I said, I would have opined previously but did not know of this on-going discussion here. Looks like it offers some hope when all hope appears lost.
I will offer this information right now. Two of my co-workers were customers of Sheryl Levitt up to the time of her dissappearance. One had her hair done just two days prior to the abduction. There was nothing in her demeanor that would indicate there was any issues on-going.
As I said, this case will not be solved by the Springfield Police Department and I have some serious doubts about the Prosecuting Attorney's office as well. I also base that on personal experience with a part of that operation which at time was quite frustrating.
I'll leave it here for now.
Jodibug
12-22-2006, 12:57 PM
Nothing new from the parking garage lead?
I'm in MO also, a couple hours from Springfield. My husband is there a couple times a week for his job.
Missouri Mule
12-22-2006, 01:08 PM
Nothing new from the parking garage lead?
I'm in MO also, a couple hours from Springfield. My husband is there a couple times a week for his job.
Around Cox South? Personally, I think that is a pipedream. The problem with the investigation is that there never was any direction to the investigation. They ignored or failed to follow up with real leads and suspects and sent everyone off on a wild goose chase with the van which was never proven to have actually occurred. It might have but it might not. But there were other certain leads that I personally know of.
There was a lot of friction and finger pointing between the police department, the FBI and any others who might have wanted to become involved. As I recall (and it has been 14 years ago), the Missouri Highway Patrol was told to butt out of the investigation.
This case is not going to be solved until it is pried loose from the Springfield Police Department and a private retired investigator or group who know how to work these cases goes over it with a fine toothed comb. I got very much involved in this case as an interested citizen and for my efforts was given the bum's rush by the detective in charge. So much for wanting citizen involvement.
Get some fresh eyes on this case. The Springfield Police Department will never solve this case. If I am wrong, and I hope I am wrong, I will be the first to congratulate anyone on that force who actually breaks the case. But I'm not holding my breath.
Nothing new from the parking garage lead?
I'm in MO also, a couple hours from Springfield. My husband is there a couple times a week for his job.Hi Jodi,
The parking garage lead is still being followed up on. We should know something soon. There is alot going on behind the scenes that I can't talk about. We believe this lead will be more than worth the wait. Hang tight :-)
Ken
Missouri Mule
12-22-2006, 05:11 PM
Hi Jodi,
The parking garage lead is still being followed up on. We should know something soon. There is alot going on behind the scenes that I can't talk about. We believe this lead will be more than worth the wait. Hang tight :-)
Ken
I hope you're right but I would be amazed if anything comes of it. If I were a betting man I would say we'll wait another 14 years before we know anything, if then. If Jimmy Hoffa hasn't be found in 30 years with all of the FBI's expertise what's to believe that the Springfield Police Department is going to suddenly solve this case? Although I don't live in Missouri right now, I still come from Missouri and I'll believe it when I see it. I want to be "shown" some results. Let us hope. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
BuddyMidwest
12-23-2006, 08:00 AM
I'm glad to see some discussion going on the forum again. I live in Springfield, too, and have most of my life - and, of course, paid great attention when the women disappeared and to the investigation. It reminds me of the Jon-Benet investigation - and reinforces how important it is for small town police departments to ask for help when faced with things like this. I mean, how often does something like this happen in Springfield, Missouri?
There was a lot of conflict and politics going on with the police department at that time (and it probably continues). Not to mention lack of experience - and they inherited a seriously contaminated crime scene and were called onto the scene later rather than sooner.
I knew the owner of the salon where Sheryl worked - not overly well, but better than an acquaintance. So it drew me in even more. I moved out of state the year following the disappearance and tried to keep up - but it seemed the investigation went nowhere fast. Now I'm back in Springfield - in fact I live just a few blocks from the Delmar address.
I would love to take a fresh look at things in this forum - what we know, what we don't - it never hurts to keep going at it - it's what keeps these cases fresh and keeps people pushing for answers.
Missouri Mule
12-23-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm glad to see some discussion going on the forum again. I live in Springfield, too, and have most of my life - and, of course, paid great attention when the women disappeared and to the investigation. It reminds me of the Jon-Benet investigation - and reinforces how important it is for small town police departments to ask for help when faced with things like this. I mean, how often does something like this happen in Springfield, Missouri?
There was a lot of conflict and politics going on with the police department at that time (and it probably continues). Not to mention lack of experience - and they inherited a seriously contaminated crime scene and were called onto the scene later rather than sooner.
I knew the owner of the salon where Sheryl worked - not overly well, but better than an acquaintance. So it drew me in even more. I moved out of state the year following the disappearance and tried to keep up - but it seemed the investigation went nowhere fast. Now I'm back in Springfield - in fact I live just a few blocks from the Delmar address.
I would love to take a fresh look at things in this forum - what we know, what we don't - it never hurts to keep going at it - it's what keeps these cases fresh and keeps people pushing for answers.
Two of the folks that went to her were my co-workers. One saw her just two days before the abductions where they discussed the pending graduations of their daughters.
Can anyone clear a question up for me? Did Cox work as a car salesman in Springfield? Somewhere I saw that posted and that was the first I have heard of it.
BuddyMidwest
12-24-2006, 07:54 AM
Missouri Mule - I've read that, too. Cox returned to Springfield after being released from jail in Florida. Apparently he listed his occupation as car salesman on a Missouri license application. Also worked for a time with Stacy McCall's father.
He definitely seems to be a man of opportunity - not one to go out of his way seeking victims - but rather someone he's come in contact with. But he also doesn't seem the type to take on 3 at once and had never worked with partners - at least that has been discussed or published.
Missouri Mule
12-24-2006, 10:55 AM
Missouri Mule - I've read that, too. Cox returned to Springfield after being released from jail in Florida. Apparently he listed his occupation as car salesman on a Missouri license application. Also worked for a time with Stacy McCall's father.
He definitely seems to be a man of opportunity - not one to go out of his way seeking victims - but rather someone he's come in contact with. But he also doesn't seem the type to take on 3 at once and had never worked with partners - at least that has been discussed or published.
I think it has yet to be established that he actually worked with Mr. McCall. I know from personal knowledge that Mr. McCall worked at a local dealership because I saw him there. But I have no independent knowledge that Cox also worked there.
As an aside Cox is about 65 miles from where I live cooling his heels in the Lovelady, Texas "maximum" facility. He may be playing everyone for fools. Until I see something that ties him to this crime I am unconvinced he is the one who did it. However, it appears that he was a Springfield native and returned there so that is very interesting in and of itself.
The way this crime is going to be solved is by discovering the motive behind these abductions. Find the motive, solve the crime. And to find out any more about the case, pressure, great pressure, must bear on the Springfield Police Department to be more forthcoming or this case will just get colder still just like the Judge Crater case. They will be writing about this 75 years from now. We know more about the likely idenity of Jack the Ripper than we do about the perps who did this crime.
MaryLiz
12-24-2006, 11:38 AM
QUOTE
{The way this crime is going to be solved is by discovering the motive behind these abductions. Find the motive, solve the crime. And to find out any more about the case, pressure, great pressure, must bear on the Springfield Police Department to be more forthcoming or this case will just get colder still just like the Judge Crater case. They will be writing about this 75 years from now. We know more about the likely idenity of Jack the Ripper than we do about the perps who did this crime.}
I don't live in Missouri but I have been following this case for about the past 3 years. Besides checking on Websleuths I also check the Springfield News-Leader about once a week to see if there are any updates. I haven't read the past articles about this case in the Springfield newspaper for several months now, I just usually check the paper for any new developments. But it seems to me I remember reading at some point a possible motive could have been Suzanne Streeter's involvement with drugs or a connection to people selling drugs??
Has there ever been any other motive brought up in this case besides a possible drug connection?
Even with me being so far away from this geographically and not knowing the inner workings of the Springfield PD, it seems so frustrating that they haven't been able to move any farther with this case. I've read the letters in the paper that Cox apparently wrote to a reporter and I don't think he did it either, especially by himself. And I don't know what to make of the parking garage lead. I wish there was a cold case squad of retired LE officials or detectives who could take a new look at this and start at the beginning.
Missouri Mule
12-24-2006, 12:06 PM
QUOTE
{The way this crime is going to be solved is by discovering the motive behind these abductions. Find the motive, solve the crime. And to find out any more about the case, pressure, great pressure, must bear on the Springfield Police Department to be more forthcoming or this case will just get colder still just like the Judge Crater case. They will be writing about this 75 years from now. We know more about the likely idenity of Jack the Ripper than we do about the perps who did this crime.}
I don't live in Missouri but I have been following this case for about the past 3 years. Besides checking on Websleuths I also check the Springfield News-Leader about once a week to see if there are any updates. I haven't read the past articles about this case in the Springfield newspaper for several months now, I just usually check the paper for any new developments. But it seems to me I remember reading at some point a possible motive could have been Suzanne Streeter's involvement with drugs or a connection to people selling drugs??
Has there ever been any other motive brought up in this case besides a possible drug connection?
Even with me being so far away from this geographically and not knowing the inner workings of the Springfield PD, it seems so frustrating that they haven't been able to move any farther with this case. I've read the letters in the paper that Cox apparently wrote to a reporter and I don't think he did it either, especially by himself. And I don't know what to make of the parking garage lead. I wish there was a cold case squad of retired LE officials or detectives who could take a new look at this and start at the beginning.That was the speculation from the beginning. But it has never been definitively established. What I do know is that the investigation was a mess from day one with interagency squabbling that hampered the investigation. Additionally, the van business has never been established to be a fact. We could all have been sent on a wild goose chase.
I couldn't agree with you more that a fresh look by retired detectives who would be given unrestricted access to the files would be a very good idea. This was the single most expensive operation in Springfield history and to hear them tell it they don't have a single clue of who did it or why it was done. I don't believe that for one second nor do I believe it was a random act.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Until the people of Springfield DEMAND some answers this case will not be solved. The files will have to be opened up to retired or private investigators who can reexamine all of the information. It will take a month or more just to make the case file comprehensible. One of the things that has plagued this case from the beginning has been that there is too much information; not enough. But the department dropped the ball and jealousies developed and it was held close to the vest. If my memory serves me correctly, the Missouri Highway Patrol was told to butt out. The FBI was involved but as we know the cooperation between local police departments and the FBI are often strained to being non existent.
It has been said that certain people were ruled out at the beginning. We don't even know how that was done. Was it by lie detector tests? Those are not reliable as any competent lie detector expert would testify to. They are not allowed in court hearings. Handwriting is not reliable and now we are finding that fingerprints are not even totally reliable. The ONLY thing that is 100% reliable is DNA tests except in the case of identical twins. Do we know what evidence was even gathered at the crime scene and the DNA and other evidence? The answer is no. We do not. The Springfield people and the families have been kept in the dark to the present day. And most of it comes down to petty politics.
On a personal note I have a actual information regarding this case that I will not share in this forum but if interested parties were privy to it they would be outraged as I was at the time.
BuddyMidwest
12-24-2006, 03:13 PM
If I remember correctly, the mention of Cox working with Stuart McCall came out of an interview Cox did with KY3. I'm not sure if transcripts of that exist - would be interesting to review. The News-Leader used to have the articles on this case pulled together in a special report section - however, since they've changed the site layout, looks like it's no longer in the active section. You can still access the old archive section at the following link.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/day1_cox.html will take you to one of the articles on Cox from the series and at the bottom you can access others. In all the coverage I've read, no real evidence is discussed - other than the broken globe on the porch light (not the actual light, just the globe), the blinds in Susie's bedroom being parted as if someone had looked outside, and the fact all three women's purses were stacked together on the stairs leading into Susie's bedroom. The problem is they didn't treat it as a crime scene. The police weren't notified until late the following evening and even then, they treated it as a disappearance, not an abduction.
I would like to hear what others think on motive. I've heard the rumored drug connection, too. There has been discussion surrounding a guy that Sheryl was apparently dating and I seem to remember discussion early on about a young man Suzie was or had dated. I don't believe Stacy McCall had a boyfriend at the time.
I can't believe it was random either. Obviously there was no forced entry, so someone convinced those in the house to let them in or at least open the door and then forced their way in. Would seem to make more sense that the mother was the target - if this was planned, then those responsible should have known the daughter wasn't planning to be there. If that's the case, how did they manage to gain control when surprised by the daughter and friend coming home unexpectedly?
But it looks like the girls had already been in the house for awhile before they were all taken - Stacy had changed out of her clothes and apparently they had washed their faces, etc., getting ready for bed. So it would have been obvious the mother, daughter and more were in the house - as all the cars were parked right out front.
Talk at the police department was that there was no organized follow up on leads. People were given bits of tasks to do - but there was no organized focus moving from one lead to another and piecing it all togther.
What's does everyone else think on motive?
Missouri Mule
12-24-2006, 08:36 PM
If I remember correctly, the mention of Cox working with Stuart McCall came out of an interview Cox did with KY3. I'm not sure if transcripts of that exist - would be interesting to review. The News-Leader used to have the articles on this case pulled together in a special report section - however, since they've changed the site layout, looks like it's no longer in the active section. You can still access the old archive section at the following link.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/day1_cox.html will take you to one of the articles on Cox from the series and at the bottom you can access others. In all the coverage I've read, no real evidence is discussed - other than the broken globe on the porch light (not the actual light, just the globe), the blinds in Susie's bedroom being parted as if someone had looked outside, and the fact all three women's purses were stacked together on the stairs leading into Susie's bedroom. The problem is they didn't treat it as a crime scene. The police weren't notified until late the following evening and even then, they treated it as a disappearance, not an abduction.
I would like to hear what others think on motive. I've heard the rumored drug connection, too. There has been discussion surrounding a guy that Sheryl was apparently dating and I seem to remember discussion early on about a young man Suzie was or had dated. I don't believe Stacy McCall had a boyfriend at the time.
I can't believe it was random either. Obviously there was no forced entry, so someone convinced those in the house to let them in or at least open the door and then forced their way in. Would seem to make more sense that the mother was the target - if this was planned, then those responsible should have known the daughter wasn't planning to be there. If that's the case, how did they manage to gain control when surprised by the daughter and friend coming home unexpectedly?
But it looks like the girls had already been in the house for awhile before they were all taken - Stacy had changed out of her clothes and apparently they had washed their faces, etc., getting ready for bed. So it would have been obvious the mother, daughter and more were in the house - as all the cars were parked right out front.
Talk at the police department was that there was no organized follow up on leads. People were given bits of tasks to do - but there was no organized focus moving from one lead to another and piecing it all togther.
What's does everyone else think on motive?
Yes, I seem to recall that as well and I think I know which person that was who was alluded to. As I recall (and it has been 14 years ago) that same person used to frequent the building where I worked. But I think it became widely speculated about because of the individual's past. If it were the same person I am thinking of he had a rather sordid past. It was not Cox. They finally nailed this guy on another case but not this one. So far as I know he is now walking the streets. I have no independent knowledge that he even knew Sheryl Levitt. But many thought that he was the person who was dating her. I was hearing this constantly at the time. He was central in most everyone's pet theories; at least the ones I spoke to at the time. Certainly if they were connected he would have had to be Suspect #1. That would have been a coincidence that could not possibly be overlooked. That was all speculation that the police department never made public so we simply don't know. Maybe they are afraid they will be sued. Who knows?
Here is a minor detail that to my knowledge no one has ever published and I was told of this by one of the detectives in the task force. As it seems rather innocuous I'll just include it here for what it might be worth. According to what was told to me by the detective Suzie did not have a key to the back/side door. She would have had to come through the front door or be let in. I'm not even sure it is particularly important but evidently the belief was that this indicated Sheryl was concerned about her safety and wanted to limit entry in some small way. Make of that what you will.
I have a theory but there is no way to test it because the Springfield Police Department is holding all the cards. Since it is now quite obvious that none of the women are alive I can't imagine who they are protecting so why don't they at least publish some of the alternate theories that had to come up during the investigation. Let the public become involved while some of the potential witnesses and records are still available and alive.
My conclusion is that they are waiting for someone to walk into the police department and confess and explain the whole thing. It won't happen and the case will never be solved so long as they have this thing bottled up there. That's why the public will have to demand some accountability.
BTW, your memory is pretty good. It comports with my memory as well. I'll have to check out that link you provided.
BuddyMidwest
12-25-2006, 12:57 PM
Missouri Mule - I agree, it looks like the police are waiting for someone to explain everything and take responsibility. I knew one of the detectives - used to work some with him when he would provide off-duty security - and always thought well of him. I can only imagine his frustration at not being able to do his job. Did no one ever look at the big picture - all the tips, leads, where they led to, etc.? It sounds like the answer is "no." And then the business about the green van. Did you hear about the guy who did see a van like that parked in a supermarket parking lot - looked suspicious enough that he apparently wrote down the license plate number, but later threw the paper it was on away. I'm guessing the van was tied to the cement plant workers that vaporized? Seems like that was all the focus and led nowhere.
When did Cox come to light as a suspect and what was his connection? That must have happened right after I transferred up north. I found the court documents filed on his Florida case online - but that's about the only information other than the taunts he used to regularly give to the News-Leader.
At one time, wasn't there speculation that the murder of Jackie Johns, from Ozark, was possibly tied to this? As in she may have been able to place the abductors with the victims? I thought I read that at one time.
Obviously the motive wasn't robbery. Doesn't seem to be carried out in such a way as to make a point either, i.e. silencing someone and making it obvious they were silenced as a deternt to others. Although, I guess if it were enough of a threat to someone, making a point wouldn't matter - disposing of the problem was all that did.
If the focus were one of the girls it could be some obsessive sexual type of thing - but those people are generally very cunning and wouldn't go asking for the trouble of taking on 3 people. Besides, the girls were wild cards, were they not? Unless someone was following them, no one knew, except people at that last party, that they would even be in that house.
I enjoy reading your posts. In your mind, who was the primary target?
Missouri Mule
12-25-2006, 01:30 PM
Missouri Mule - I agree, it looks like the police are waiting for someone to explain everything and take responsibility. I knew one of the detectives - used to work some with him when he would provide off-duty security - and always thought well of him. I can only imagine his frustration at not being able to do his job. Did no one ever look at the big picture - all the tips, leads, where they led to, etc.? It sounds like the answer is "no." And then the business about the green van. Did you hear about the guy who did see a van like that parked in a supermarket parking lot - looked suspicious enough that he apparently wrote down the license plate number, but later threw the paper it was on away. I'm guessing the van was tied to the cement plant workers that vaporized? Seems like that was all the focus and led nowhere.
When did Cox come to light as a suspect and what was his connection? That must have happened right after I transferred up north. I found the court documents filed on his Florida case online - but that's about the only information other than the taunts he used to regularly give to the News-Leader.
At one time, wasn't there speculation that the murder of Jackie Johns, from Ozark, was possibly tied to this? As in she may have been able to place the abductors with the victims? I thought I read that at one time.
Obviously the motive wasn't robbery. Doesn't seem to be carried out in such a way as to make a point either, i.e. silencing someone and making it obvious they were silenced as a deternt to others. Although, I guess if it were enough of a threat to someone, making a point wouldn't matter - disposing of the problem was all that did.
If the focus were one of the girls it could be some obsessive sexual type of thing - but those people are generally very cunning and wouldn't go asking for the trouble of taking on 3 people. Besides, the girls were wild cards, were they not? Unless someone was following them, no one knew, except people at that last party, that they would even be in that house.
I enjoy reading your posts. In your mind, who was the primary target?I honestly can't say to your question. That's why it is critical to know just what working relationship may have existed between Mr. McCall and Cox. If there were, then I would have to say it was Stacy, which goes against the grain of the whole story that we heard at the time; namely that she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
About the Jackie Johns deal there was a connection but I believe she was murdered prior to the abductions. I could go into that as well as I was given some information about that the public is not privy to. That in and of itself is a scandal.
I have no idea if that alleged individual was involved but I used to ride the elevator with him on occasion and was introduced to him. I won't tell you what my urges were but they weren't positive.
I did some investigation last night and reread all of the articles by the reporter from the News-Leader and she is now located in NY where I sent her a brief e-mail last night. I want to ask her one question. But I would be happy to bounce this off you. This has nagged at me for over a decade and for the life of me I can't come up with a satisfactory explanation. Send me a PM and I'll tell you about it. Also I'd like to know which detective you are referring to. There is one particular detective there that I would dearly love to contact and see if he would be forthcoming.
I can't say this too strongly. This case to solvable but time is of the essense. It has beeen 14 years and memories and information will be getting terribly stale if much more time elapses. The foot dragging has to stop and stop now.
As an aside one of the police officers who was involved in the search later came to work where I also worked. I pumped him for information almost as soon as he came on board but he didn't have anything. I had a source from the Sheriff's office who also worked there and I pumped him continuously for months as he knew the operation over at the police department and he was one of the best I've ever seen at investigation. But he didn't have anything and furthermore he said to just forget it. He had a term for it but I can't recall what it was exactly. Soemthing about being a lost cause. It appears he correctly sized up the situation.
BuddyMidwest
12-26-2006, 08:33 AM
Missouri Mule - I sent you a PM - would be happy to hear your question. Doubt I have any answers, but you never know. I'll see if I can find that mention of Cox working as a car salesman and determine if it was just something he listed on a license application or if it really happened. I can't imagine that wouldn't have come out in the media - although, back in 1992 and 1993 - nothing got published that the authorities didn't want published. Laura Bauer was a great reporter - I'm glad you've tracked her current location. I always figured she'd move to NY or LA eventually to work.
But Cox working with Mr. McCall would have been huge. But again, it doesn't seem to make sense, does it? If Stacy were the primary target, why make it so complicated? Surely he could have determined when he could catch her alone? And again, until the very last minute, she was due to be staying at the Kirby house following those parties. But I guess obsession doesn't lend itself to logic if that were the case.
The Suzie connection with drug activity - if that were true, again the scenario with the 3 doesn't make sense. We've seen retaliatory murders related to drugs in the Ozarks, but they normally just take care of the person involved - not take on two others that aren't.
What do you make of the broken porch light globe that the police opined about - as if that were the one clue that would break this case - I always had the impression that Kirby's boyfriend has lived all these years with the guilt he swept away key evidence.
The police also made a big deal about the placement of the purses on the stairs. That does seem strange - at least for the mother's purse unless she always kept it there - but that really doesn't make sense.
MaryLiz
12-26-2006, 08:42 AM
QUOTE
{I couldn't agree with you more that a fresh look by retired detectives who would be given unrestricted access to the files would be a very good idea. This was the single most expensive operation in Springfield history and to hear them tell it they don't have a single clue of who did it or why it was done. I don't believe that for one second nor do I believe it was a random act. }
There is one organization mentioned on a couple other posts on here that I have also seen on TV shows about unsolved cases called the Vidocq Society. They're out of Philadelphia I believe and they take on unsolved disappearances and crimes that usually everyone else gives up on. This case sounds tailor-made for them. I don't know if just anyone can contact them about the case or if LE has to make initial contact and submit the files. Of course, if the Springfield PD wants the lid kept on this case, they may not share any information with an outside group, even one with a good reputation like Vidocq. Here is a link for them.
www.vidocq.org (http://www.vidocq.org/)
Missouri Mule
12-26-2006, 11:22 AM
I just found out something just today that I did not know and it would be crucial to this case but unfortunately I can't relate it here. I'm not trying to be deliberately coy about it but I just can say it.
I can't believe that this case is stuck in neutral with all of the information known. This case definitely needs an outside look with "fresh eyes."
BuddyMidwest
12-27-2006, 09:28 AM
I wasn't able to find direct information on Cox's history as a car salesman - but did find a couple of letters he wrote to the News-Leader regarding his whereabouts at the time of the disappearances. If I remember correctly, he first denied being in the area, but then changed his story - a couple of times. Seems he has a history of being charged with abducting people or holding them at gunpoint. He also has a history of getting caught, so perhaps not the best at planning - and this case definitely had some planning.
Seems it would have been fairly easy for LE to determine who, if anyone, Sherrill was dating at the time. She worked in an environment that is rich with swapping stories and for customers and co-workers to get to know you, who you're dating, hobbies. Seems like the salon owner or some of her fellow stylists would have known - unless Sherrill was keeping it a secret and what would motivate that?
Liz - thanks for the link on vidoq. I visited the homepage - you're right, it does seem that they require LE be the ones to submit a case. I wonder if Court TV or A&E has ever been contacted. Although, if they're smart, the producers are cruising these sleuthing communities for ideas on an ongoing basis. Also, I think they like to have closure to talk about and we've got none of that - yet.
MaryLiz
12-27-2006, 01:35 PM
I wasn't able to find direct information on Cox's history as a car salesman - but did find a couple of letters he wrote to the News-Leader regarding his whereabouts at the time of the disappearances. If I remember correctly, he first denied being in the area, but then changed his story - a couple of times. Seems he has a history of being charged with abducting people or holding them at gunpoint. He also has a history of getting caught, so perhaps not the best at planning - and this case definitely had some planning.
Seems it would have been fairly easy for LE to determine who, if anyone, Sherrill was dating at the time. She worked in an environment that is rich with swapping stories and for customers and co-workers to get to know you, who you're dating, hobbies. Seems like the salon owner or some of her fellow stylists would have known - unless Sherrill was keeping it a secret and what would motivate that?
Liz - thanks for the link on vidoq. I visited the homepage - you're right, it does seem that they require LE be the ones to submit a case. I wonder if Court TV or A&E has ever been contacted. Although, if they're smart, the producers are cruising these sleuthing communities for ideas on an ongoing basis. Also, I think they like to have closure to talk about and we've got none of that - yet.
You're right about Cold Case Files on A&E..they usually do only solved cases. But I have seen at least 2 episodes that were not solved but they were submitted by LE from where ever the crime occurred and were aired only because they wanted help from the public. This would be a good case for Cold Case Files. Court TV has been running a show every once in a while hosted by Nancy Grace and I think it's called Court TV investigates. It's only a half hour show but it profiles either unsolved disappearances or unsolved murders. Dominick Dunne was on 1 or 2 of the episodes with her. They just had a segment on last week about a couple from Michigan who went missing on their boat. This case would be perfect for that show. There is also Greta van Susteren with her On the Record show on Fox, Dateline NBC and 48 Hours who could do segments on it. It's interesting enough and they just might get some leads from it, who knows? There are definitely some TV shows out there that could profile this and generate some much-needed attention to get this case heated up again!
BuddyMidwest
12-28-2006, 05:03 PM
Liz - I agree. I watch those all the time and I'm sure you do, too? They have cold cases that have gone for 20 years or more. They've got to get on this one, though as the more time passes, the more people forget, die, etc. It just seems that LE got caught up in one or two theories and when those didn't pan out, didn't have anywhere else to go.
Not that there was a lot to go on. It was so late at night and that house isn't that noticeable as it sits on the edge of that neighborhood. It's strange because some of the biggest, most beautiful historic homes are right next door. And a major street (Glenstone) just a couple of blocks the other direction. But I've noticed myself when I'm coming home late, traffic isn't heavy. And it's never what I'd call heavy in this neighborhood.
The 2 women had only lived there a couple of months - not really enough time for neighbors to know who was normal at your house and who wasn't. It's like Missouri Mule said - if we could just center in on motive. I don't believe it was random. But if it were related to the mother - someone she dated, drug involvement, etc. Her co-workers should have been loaded with information on either of those counts - unless they were afraid to talk. She was a hairdresser and it would seem impossible for them not to know something funny was going on.
If Suzie were the target, certainly one of her friends or someone from school would have noticed something. The puzzling thing is she wasn't supposed to be home that night. If someone planned well, they would know that. Unless it was someone whose path they crossed at one of the parties - or on the way home. Same for Stacy - she wasn't supposed to be there either - and the only people who would have known she was were at that last party - and it may not have been decided until they returned to her friend's house where they were supposed to stay. If so, only that small group of people would have known.
There was talk the 3 were seen at George's Restaurant just down the street from the house - something like 2 a.m. If that's the case, they may have crossed paths with someone there - but I don't think that was ever proven. However, it was supposedly one of Sherrill's favorite restaurants, so surely the servers would recognize her.
And it doesn't make sense that the abductors were already in the house when the girls returned - that they walked in on someone abducting the mother. It was stated it was obvious they had changed clothes, taken off jewelry, washed their faces to get ready for bed. They surely would have had to interact with the mother when they arrived - I don't think she expected them back that night either. They would have at least said, "we're home" or something, right?
I sometimes wonder if it is something more random - and that there's no good explanation as to why. Sometimes you just have to accept that, as planned as things may appear, the decision to target them may make absolutely no sense except in the convoluted mind of the abductors.
It certainly makes me pay attention to my surroundings when I'm coming in after dark or when someone knocks on the door unexectedly. It makes you realize it could happen to anyone.
Missouri Mule
12-28-2006, 11:49 PM
Liz - I agree. I watch those all the time and I'm sure you do, too? They have cold cases that have gone for 20 years or more. They've got to get on this one, though as the more time passes, the more people forget, die, etc. It just seems that LE got caught up in one or two theories and when those didn't pan out, didn't have anywhere else to go.
Not that there was a lot to go on. It was so late at night and that house isn't that noticeable as it sits on the edge of that neighborhood. It's strange because some of the biggest, most beautiful historic homes are right next door. And a major street (Glenstone) just a couple of blocks the other direction. But I've noticed myself when I'm coming home late, traffic isn't heavy. And it's never what I'd call heavy in this neighborhood.
The 2 women had only lived there a couple of months - not really enough time for neighbors to know who was normal at your house and who wasn't. It's like Missouri Mule said - if we could just center in on motive. I don't believe it was random. But if it were related to the mother - someone she dated, drug involvement, etc. Her co-workers should have been loaded with information on either of those counts - unless they were afraid to talk. She was a hairdresser and it would seem impossible for them not to know something funny was going on.
If Suzie were the target, certainly one of her friends or someone from school would have noticed something. The puzzling thing is she wasn't supposed to be home that night. If someone planned well, they would know that. Unless it was someone whose path they crossed at one of the parties - or on the way home. Same for Stacy - she wasn't supposed to be there either - and the only people who would have known she was were at that last party - and it may not have been decided until they returned to her friend's house where they were supposed to stay. If so, only that small group of people would have known.
There was talk the 3 were seen at George's Restaurant just down the street from the house - something like 2 a.m. If that's the case, they may have crossed paths with someone there - but I don't think that was ever proven. However, it was supposedly one of Sherrill's favorite restaurants, so surely the servers would recognize her.
And it doesn't make sense that the abductors were already in the house when the girls returned - that they walked in on someone abducting the mother. It was stated it was obvious they had changed clothes, taken off jewelry, washed their faces to get ready for bed. They surely would have had to interact with the mother when they arrived - I don't think she expected them back that night either. They would have at least said, "we're home" or something, right?
I sometimes wonder if it is something more random - and that there's no good explanation as to why. Sometimes you just have to accept that, as planned as things may appear, the decision to target them may make absolutely no sense except in the convoluted mind of the abductors.
It certainly makes me pay attention to my surroundings when I'm coming in after dark or when someone knocks on the door unexectedly. It makes you realize it could happen to anyone.
I think we can rule out the sighting at "George's Steak House." It really doesn't make too much sense and I think the police essentially ruled it out altogether although the waitress did seem credible.
The question be asked is how did the perpetrators get into the house. On that question I think we have to look to obvious and on that score I will just leave it there for speculation.
I agree completely that the (all) abductors were not at the residence when the young women arrived; although I think it is likely that one abductor was in the house with Sherill who she had let in. And I don't believe at that point that danger was evident. That came later in my judgment when the plan unfolded in the early morning hours.
And I do not believe this was in any way random. There was a plan and there was more than one person invoved. The house was scrubbed down which would have been far too much for one person to have taken care of everything. More likely 2,3 or even 4 people were involved. The ultimate question is what was the motive? Find the motive. Find the suspects and olve the crime.
Actually the "puzzling thing" about Suzie not being at home that night is not so puzzling at all if one reflects on it. That points directly at a coordinated plan. Let us all remember the immortal lines from Watergate -- "Follow the money."
BuddyMidwest
12-29-2006, 05:23 PM
Missouri Mule - you made me look at this in another way which does make logical sense. My puzzlement on Suzie - that she wasn't supposed to be home - did equate with a well coordinated plan. However, if they got to the house and not only Suzie, but also another friend were there unexpectedly - I'd call it off, right? However - the explanation to that is, it was already in progress, meaning at least one of the abductors was already in the house with Sherrill - and she obviously let them in. But nothing appeared to be wrong - at least at first. So the plan was already in motion - and to abort when the girls came in unexpectedly would have meant when it did come down later - the girls would have already seen at least one of the people involved. Two loose ends that had to be dealt with?
Missouri Mule
12-29-2006, 07:10 PM
Missouri Mule - you made me look at this in another way which does make logical sense. My puzzlement on Suzie - that she wasn't supposed to be home - did equate with a well coordinated plan. However, if they got to the house and not only Suzie, but also another friend were there unexpectedly - I'd call it off, right? However - the explanation to that is, it was already in progress, meaning at least one of the abductors was already in the house with Sherrill - and she obviously let them in. But nothing appeared to be wrong - at least at first. So the plan was already in motion - and to abort when the girls came in unexpectedly would have meant when it did come down later - the girls would have already seen at least one of the people involved. Two loose ends that had to be dealt with?
Yes, and I think we ought to look at all the facts that are known and unknown. Today I was looking at another site and it is the best I have seen thus far that goes into very precise detail what the facts truly are. This is the link and I think you will see what I am talking about. Very nicely done and understandable.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mccall_stacy.html
I invite everyone interested in this to read it and note that it references the other two women. There are some minor differences but this provides anyone wanting to know the vital aspects of this case would do well to read it.
If the parking garage results are positive, it will send shockwaves throughout the scientific community. Tim Gray's prototype instrument detected the anomaly at the parking garage last April. When I met him in person this past July 15th, he told me that his instrument picked up an electronic signal for ovaries. He told me that he believes the remains are encapsulated and that he was in shock when his instrument picked up that signal. Tim also told me that he wants to use his instrument to search for Natalee Holloway. Tim said if Natalee's remains are on the island, his instrument can find her in a matter of hours. Tim's instrument is based on Nicola Tesla's research and it can detect anything at the subatomic level. Nothing can be hidden from it. Tim did scan the PFI store and the farm in Cassville and the results were negative. I wrote Robert Cox this past summer about the parking garage lead. Surprisingly, he stopped corresponding with me. At the risk of stating the obvious; if Stacy, Sherrill, and Suzie are buried underneath the parking garage, Tim Gray will make history.
Missouri Mule
12-31-2006, 11:08 AM
If the parking garage results are positive, it will send shockwaves throughout the scientific community. Tim Gray's prototype instrument detected the anomaly at the parking garage last April. When I met him in person this past July 15th, he told me that his instrument picked up an electronic signal for ovaries. He told me that he believes the remains are encapsulated and that he was in shock when his instrument picked up that signal. Tim also told me that he wants to use his instrument to search for Natalee Holloway. Tim said if Natalee's remains are on the island, his instrument can find her in a matter of hours. Tim's instrument is based on Nicola Tesla's research and it can detect anything at the subatomic level. Nothing can be hidden from it. Tim did scan the PFI store and the farm in Cassville and the results were negative. I wrote Robert Cox this past summer about the parking garage lead. Surprisingly, he stopped corresponding with me. At the risk of stating the obvious; if Stacy, Sherrill, and Suzie are buried underneath the parking garage, Tim Gray will make history.
I have to tell you that I think this parking lot business is going nowhere. I can't believe that any instrument is capable of picking up properties of human remains of over 14 years ago. Where is the scientific evidence that such an instrument even works as advertised? It ought to be possible to show how it is supposedly capable of doing what is claimed. Do you have any links to such scientific tests so we can review their efficacy?
I'm sorry, but at this point I just don't believe this is worth considering. We have to follow the evidence and develop some reasonable hypotheses that comport with those facts.
I am convinced almost to a certainty that if we establish the motive(s) we shall have a very good idea of what happened that June night. And I also believe that establishing those motive(s) will logically lead to the perpertrator(s) and hopefully their indictment and conviction for this terrible crime.
Where is the scientific evidence that such an instrument even works as advertised? It ought to be possible to show how it is supposedly capable of doing what is claimed.We brought in our GPR expert and he performed a second independent scan to verify Tim's findings. The second scan was recorded on videotape. Our GPR expert said on camera the results of the scan were indicative of old graves. The evidence that confirms the accuracy of Tim's instrument is the recorded second scan. Our GPR expert has been called on to assist in projects worldwide ranging from modifications to the Panama Canal, the raising of the "Kirsk" submarine, locating burial sites, locating and mapping of buried utilities and structures, to nuclear power plant decommissioning. Our GPR expert is an expert worldwide. Again, there is alot going on behind the scenes that I can't talk about. This lead IS being taken seriously and it IS being followed up on. Even though the wheels of justice have turned slowly, we are expecting great news very soon.
pedinurse
12-31-2006, 04:59 PM
Well, I am not sure how much this comment will add to the discussion... but for those of you outside this area, it may help. I am from Joplin, and can remember as a younger child going to the COX NICU for twelve plus weeks to see my little brother until he was able to come home. That was late 1991 - about six months before the murders. That area wasn't nearly as developed then as it is now - lots of open areas back then it seems. Now, as an adult, when I went there I was shocked at the changes that were made in the area.
Missouri Mule
12-31-2006, 11:20 PM
Well, I am not sure how much this comment will add to the discussion... but for those of you outside this area, it may help. I am from Joplin, and can remember as a younger child going to the COX NICU for twelve plus weeks to see my little brother until he was able to come home. That was late 1991 - about six months before the murders. That area wasn't nearly as developed then as it is now - lots of open areas back then it seems. Now, as an adult, when I went there I was shocked at the changes that were made in the area.
I lived in Springfield 26 years and during the time of the murders. And it is true that there have been many, many changes there in the area in question. I would ask why the bodies would be buried there and what led to those bodies. When I lived in Springfield there were always stories that indicated something was imminent and nothing ever materialized from any of those "breakthroughs." It was always the same.
If we can work from the presumption that somebody didn't just drive off I44 and decide to abduct and murder at random three women for the sheer heck of it, what are some of the likely motives that would make sense in view of the known facts. I think that should always have been the way this investigation should have developed instead of waiting, waiting, waiting, for someone to produce that "tip" that would break the case.
In my opinion the likely perpetrator(s) were always identifiable. But to hear the police tell it they don't have a clue about anything. What are they good for? If they don't have any clues or hypotheses I conclude they are afflicted with mass stupidity.
Missouri Mule
12-31-2006, 11:30 PM
We brought in our GPR expert and he performed a second independent scan to verify Tim's findings. The second scan was recorded on videotape. Our GPR expert said on camera the results of the scan were indicative of old graves. The evidence that confirms the accuracy of Tim's instrument is the recorded second scan. Our GPR expert has been called on to assist in projects worldwide ranging from modifications to the Panama Canal, the raising of the "Kirsk" submarine, locating burial sites, locating and mapping of buried utilities and structures, to nuclear power plant decommissioning. Our GPR expert is an expert worldwide. Again, there is alot going on behind the scenes that I can't talk about. This lead IS being taken seriously and it IS being followed up on. Even though the wheels of justice have turned slowly, we are expecting great news very soon.
What makes you believe that it is being taken seriously? If we were to believe the police they always took this crime seriously, but where is the evidence they ever did? The light at the end of the tunnel is at hand but the tunnel just keeps moving and the goal posts moved. I've from Missouri. I'll have to see it to believe it.
I can tell you for a certain fact that when I called in the sighting of a van in the fall of 1992 that was identical (except for color) to the one that was shown in front of the police department that my job was threatened. That's right. Threatened for reporting the vehicle. Does this sound like they are serious? Not in my book it doesn't. They don't want information or they wouldn't respond in this irresponsible way. In my opinion it is the police department that needs to be investigated.
But good luck. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. But I won't hold my breath.
MaryLiz
01-01-2007, 01:28 PM
I went back to the Springfield News-Leader and read every article again. Here is the link with all the articles.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/families060902.html
Also, I agree that the website for missing persons, Charley Project, has the best detailed description of the 3 missing women and what happened that night. The lady who runs Charley Project posts on here often.
One of the things I keep going back to is someone mentioning that Robert Cox possibly worked with Stacy McCall's father. I wish there was some way to verify that. I never thought Stacy was the intended target. I thought it was either someone Sherrill Levitt was dating or possibly someone Suzie Streeter was mixed up with and that Stacy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But then if Stacy McCall was the target, it would make more sense for someone to get her when she was alone. So I'm kind of torn on that one, but just the fact that Robert Cox might have worked with Stuart McCall could mean something. Also, I thought maybe someone followed Stacy and Suzie back to Suzie's house and waited for a while because it sounds like they had washed their faces and changed their clothes and everyone was in bed before the abduction. But I don't think anyone followed them there because it sounded like whatever happened was planned out well in advance. It was even mentioned in one of the articles that Sherrill's dog, Cinnamon was outside and someone possibly used the dog as an excuse to gain entry to the house.
The other thing that puzzles me is one of the articles that mentioned the green van. It says that a woman was sitting on her porch watching the sunrise on the morning of June 7, when a similarly described green van pulled into the driveway of the house next door. A blonde who looked like Suzie, and who looked frightened, was driving and some guy got out and went to the porch of that house. The lady heard him to say "don't do anything stupid" to the blonde who was driving. The lady didn't realize until several days afterwards that the blonde looked like Suzie and the van was the one police were looking for. She didn't call authorities right away because she was afraid...and by the time she did, it sounded like the police dismissed it as a meaningless lead. Why did the van stop at that house? Did the perps live there?? Did they know someone who lived there? Did the police talk to anyone who lived in that house? Or was nothing ever followed up on this because the police considered the lead to mean nothing? Another possible lead with the van sounded suspicious too when a guy who saw it in a parking lot, wrote down the license and then decided to throw it away because he decided it didn't mean anything???
In the letters Robert Cox wrote he mentioned 2 other names. One was Dennis Graves and the other was someone named Steve. He mentioned Steve's name when he wondered if Steve had been interrogated like he had. Who are these 2 other people? Were the names Dennis Graves or "Steve" ever connected to this case as possible suspects?? Cox mentioned other names in his letters but they were all LE people or members of the news media. I believe those other 2 names mentioned could have been possible suspects.
Forgive me for just thinking out loud and not really saying anything worthwhile about this but the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. It's got coverup written all over it but it still seems like it could be solved. In one of the articles, it says 48 Hours did a story about it in September 1992. I think it's time they or Dateline NBC or Court TVs Under Investigation or SOMEONE does an updated story on this.
Missouri Mule
01-01-2007, 01:53 PM
I went back to the Springfield News-Leader and read every article again. Here is the link with all the articles.
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/families060902.html
Also, I agree that the website for missing persons, Charley Project, has the best detailed description of the 3 missing women and what happened that night. The lady who runs Charley Project posts on here often.
One of the things I keep going back to is someone mentioning that Robert Cox possibly worked with Stacy McCall's father. I wish there was some way to verify that. I never thought Stacy was the intended target. I thought it was either someone Sherrill Levitt was dating or possibly someone Suzie Streeter was mixed up with and that Stacy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But then if Stacy McCall was the target, it would make more sense for someone to get her when she was alone. So I'm kind of torn on that one, but just the fact that Robert Cox might have worked with Stuart McCall could mean something. Also, I thought maybe someone followed Stacy and Suzie back to Suzie's house and waited for a while because it sounds like they had washed their faces and changed their clothes and everyone was in bed before the abduction. But I don't think anyone followed them there because it sounded like whatever happened was planned out well in advance. It was even mentioned in one of the articles that Sherrill's dog, Cinnamon was outside and someone possibly used the dog as an excuse to gain entry to the house.
The other thing that puzzles me is one of the articles that mentioned the green van. It says that a woman was sitting on her porch watching the sunrise on the morning of June 7, when a similarly described green van pulled into the driveway of the house next door. A blonde who looked like Suzie, and who looked frightened, was driving and some guy got out and went to the porch of that house. The lady heard him to say "don't do anything stupid" to the blonde who was driving. The lady didn't realize until several days afterwards that the blonde looked like Suzie and the van was the one police were looking for. She didn't call authorities right away because she was afraid...and by the time she did, it sounded like the police dismissed it as a meaningless lead. Why did the van stop at that house? Did the perps live there?? Did they know someone who lived there? Did the police talk to anyone who lived in that house? Or was nothing ever followed up on this because the police considered the lead to mean nothing? Another possible lead with the van sounded suspicious too when a guy who saw it in a parking lot, wrote down the license and then decided to throw it away because he decided it didn't mean anything???
In the letters Robert Cox wrote he mentioned 2 other names. One was Dennis Graves and the other was someone named Steve. He mentioned Steve's name when he wondered if Steve had been interrogated like he had. Who are these 2 other people? Were the names Dennis Graves or "Steve" ever connected to this case as possible suspects?? Cox mentioned other names in his letters but they were all LE people or members of the news media. I believe those other 2 names mentioned could have been possible suspects.
Forgive me for just thinking out loud and not really saying anything worthwhile about this but the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. It's got coverup written all over it but it still seems like it could be solved. In one of the articles, it says 48 Hours did a story about it in September 1992. I think it's time they or Dateline NBC or Court TVs Under Investigation or SOMEONE does an updated story on this.Dennis Graves was the KY3 reporter. "Steve" might have been "Steve Grant" of the same station. They are not suspects.
You are, however, asking the right questions. The "48 Hours" piece was well done and absolutely captivating. That's what got me wrapped up in the case. I was away on vacation during the abduction and frankly did not pay that much attention to it until the "48 Hours" piece aired. After that I reviewed every news article (there must have been literally dozens) from the beginning to the end and back to know the case down cold. I was naturally interested in that my occupation was investigation although not directly in law enforcement. I couldn't understand how they could not move on the case. Later on it was also on "America's Most Wanted" some months later. There was supposed to be someone who had called in from Florida who was cut off with vital information but never called back.
Hint: Go to "Google" and do some research and see what you find. You might find it interesting. And it's recent.
My question is why the police are not doing this work required instead of waiting for the suspect(s) to walk in the door and confess.
As an aside, one of the police who did the initial search and seen on the "48 hours" program came to work for the agency I was employed. I pumped him for information and he didn't know anymore than I did. Another employee worked at the local sheriff's office and he said to forget about it that the case would never be solved. And he was one of the best investigators I had ever seen. He could find a needle in a haystack but he held out no hope for this case.
The one person I would most dearly love to talk to about this case is one of the original detectives who worked the case. Sergeant Mark Webb; later promoted to Lieutenant Webb as recently as 2002. I've always had a high opinion of him for some reason. But he was not the lead detective in the early going. The current police chief came in after the case was in progress but he couldn't break the logjam either. And there was some problems with the police union as well if I recall correctly although I don't think it had any relevance to this case as to its being unsolved.
As I said from my first post, the only thing that will ever resolve this case is if the citizens of Springfield rise up in righteous indignation and demand some answers. And the case should be given over to an outside retired detective or detectives to review in its entirety. I do know that this is the most expensive investigation in Springfield's history. Springfield's greater metropolitan area is about 250,000 people just for your info.
MaryLiz
01-01-2007, 03:26 PM
QUOTE:
[Hint: Go to "Google" and do some research and see what you find. You might find it interesting. And it's recent]
I can't find anything more recent than 2004 when I Google their names. I also Googled missing 3 women from Springfield and Springfield Police Department. But I still can't find anything recent.
I forgot to mention one other thing I read. Weren't there 2 construction workers or 2 guys who laid concrete who were questioned about the disappearance? I think I read on another post here that the parking garage for a cancer center near the home on Delmar was being built around the time of the disappearances, so maybe if there were some guys working construction near the home who had seen them...???
Missouri Mule
01-01-2007, 03:51 PM
QUOTE:
[Hint: Go to "Google" and do some research and see what you find. You might find it interesting. And it's recent]
I can't find anything more recent than 2004 when I Google their names. I also Googled missing 3 women from Springfield and Springfield Police Department. But I still can't find anything recent.
I forgot to mention one other thing I read. Weren't there 2 construction workers or 2 guys who laid concrete who were questioned about the disappearance? I think I read on another post here that the parking garage for a cancer center near the home on Delmar was being built around the time of the disappearances, so maybe if there were some guys working construction near the home who had seen them...???I'm sorrry. I wasn't clear. Not the women themselves but some of the other principles named in the case. One in particular. Try to key on the possible motive. Clearly, one motive is particularly striking and has never been publically discussed by the police department. In all crimes there is the motive, the means and the opportunity. Who or what people might have met those criteria?
MaryLiz
01-01-2007, 09:47 PM
I'm sorrry. I wasn't clear. Not the women themselves but some of the other principles named in the case. One in particular. Try to key on the possible motive. Clearly, one motive is particularly striking and has never been publically discussed by the police department. In all crimes there is the motive, the means and the opportunity. Who or what people might have met those criteria?
Well, I'll have to take some time with this...it's really got me stymied but I'm going to go over everything again this weekend. I am clearly missing something and it's probably right in front of me.
pittsburghgirl
01-04-2007, 03:38 AM
The question that comes to my mind is: who had Sherrill and Suzanne declared dead 5 years after they disappeared? And why? The point of having someone declared dead is usually to settle some estate business or claim some property like insurance.
I tried googling the individuals listed in the Charley Project article, but only turned up a recent law suit in Florida. I couldn't get into Lexis-Nexis tonight so that is as far as I got.
Missouri Mule
01-04-2007, 11:38 AM
The question that comes to my mind is: who had Sherrill and Suzanne declared dead 5 years after they disappeared? And why? The point of having someone declared dead is usually to settle some estate business or claim some property like insurance.
I tried googling the individuals listed in the Charley Project article, but only turned up a recent law suit in Florida. I couldn't get into Lexis-Nexis tonight so that is as far as I got.
There is that and one other recent item.
pittsburghgirl
01-04-2007, 12:06 PM
The DUI? I am having a hard time making any connection, or thinking how to find out more.
Missouri Mule
01-04-2007, 01:32 PM
The DUI? I am having a hard time making any connection, or thinking how to find out more.Where did the call come from during "America's Most Wanted" program? The DUI is not in and of itself necessarily significant but it indicates a troubled individual. And I don't know of anyone else who has a daily count of the number of days they have been gone as was posted on another website.
The thing to concentrate on here is the motive. Ultimately I am convinced that is the key to the case.
MaryLiz
01-04-2007, 02:44 PM
That's right, the call to AMW came from Florida and it would make sense why the call was disconnected if the caller had second thoughts and hung up...and also why they never called back. I saw the DUI and lawsuit too but can't make a connection either about what the motive might have been for this person to be involved. I agree he sounds like a disturbed individual. But I can't come up with the motive.
pittsburghgirl, I think I read somewhere that it was Debbie Schwartz, Sherrill Levitt's sister who had them declared dead but I am not absolutely sure about that.
Missouri Mule
01-04-2007, 03:42 PM
That's right, the call to AMW came from Florida and it would make sense why the call was disconnected if the caller had second thoughts and hung up...and also why they never called back. I saw the DUI and lawsuit too but can't make a connection either about what the motive might have been for this person to be involved. I agree he sounds like a disturbed individual. But I can't come up with the motive.
pittsburghgirl, I think I read somewhere that it was Debbie Schwartz, Sherrill Levitt's sister who had them declared dead but I am not absolutely sure about that.
I agree completely.
Think back to what was said (and written?) in the early part of the investigation. (and there were several dozen articles in the News-Leader)
Connect the dots. And this is more than theory. I don't wish to be evasive but..... the motive is the key. Find the motive. Solve the crime.
I believe both the sister and uncle were involved in declaring them deceased. I think they just had decided to move on with their lives as it was obvious that the women were logically never coming back and affairs had to be settled; the home and possessions sold, etc. Nothing sinister there. It had to be done which is a good reminder for all of us to have our wills in order and in safe keeping. When some of my relatives passed on it was a mini-nightmare to put everything to rest.
Missouri Mule
01-04-2007, 03:48 PM
The question that comes to my mind is: who had Sherrill and Suzanne declared dead 5 years after they disappeared? And why? The point of having someone declared dead is usually to settle some estate business or claim some property like insurance.
I tried googling the individuals listed in the Charley Project article, but only turned up a recent law suit in Florida. I couldn't get into Lexis-Nexis tonight so that is as far as I got.
I would certainly be interested in reading that lawsuit. If you happen to come up with any details or a link, please post. It should be public information. Offhand, I don't know how to get to it, short of going to the courthouse in Florida and asking to see it. And I'm a fer piece from there.
Which, btw, the Florida Supreme Court decision on Robert Cox is posted in PDF on the internet if anyone is interested. It doesn't really provide any significant information but it is there nonetheless. I'm agnostic on his possible involvement.
pittsburghgirl
01-04-2007, 11:40 PM
Where did the call come from during "America's Most Wanted" program? The DUI is not in and of itself necessarily significant but it indicates a troubled individual. And I don't know of anyone else who has a daily count of the number of days they have been gone as was posted on another website.
The thing to concentrate on here is the motive. Ultimately I am convinced that is the key to the case.
Duh. I tell my students all the time that in research, you don’t look just at the “content,” you look at the patterns and connections and gaps. I had forgotten that the AMW call came from Florida. (And, by the way, does anyone recall a source for that? The Charley Project article just references a call without specifying where it came from.) And I will do some research on the court case next week when I can access Lexis-Nexis, I promise.
You inspired me to re-read the thread and all the pertinent linked materials. In terms of motive, I found this statement in a News-Leader article: “Officers say key suspects who investigators believed had a motive to abduct the women were ruled out by the police chief himself. “ OK. So that tells us that the investigators, at least, had “key suspects” with “a motive.” (And clearly, based on what the News-Leader says, you are right about the need for a clean start here; the investigation didn’t proceed from following leads and developing evidence. Never mind why that happened; the point now would be to start over and sort out what is there.) So your questions about how “key suspects…with a motive” were cleared is at the heart of the matter.
Next observation: The abductions occurred on the girls’ graduation night. The News-Leader tells us that only Sherrill attended Suzie’s graduation. Now, that raises some questions. Certainly, Sherrill’s family (sister, father, uncle and presumably others) lived at some distance from Missouri and any number of factors might prevent them from attending—money, health, even family custom. But where was her older brother Bartt?? In a family of three, a high school graduation might be the kind of event you just wouldn’t miss. Note that Suzie planned to go to beauty school as her mother did, not college, so this would have been a big milestone, THE graduation. Related question: I haven’t seen any comments in news articles from Bartt. Has anyone else seen anything? One would think he would take a lead role in pushing for resolution and answers on this case. His whole family had disappeared. There is coverage about and comments from Stacy’s parents, Sherrill’s sister, and her father and uncle. At the very least, reporters as good as that one with the News-Leader should have been turning the world upside down to find Bartt to get his reaction. And for that matter, the father and stepfather. The father appears to have dropped out of their lives entirely, and evidently Sherrill was trying unsuccessfully to find her ex Don Levitt because his creditors were after her to pay his debts.
That brings us to money. Sherrill had a nice client base and probably did well enough to manage as a single mother. She apparently also had good sense, since she had just moved into a smaller house as a result of the divorce. Did she rent that house? The News-Leader article didn’t say she bought it.
Stranger vs. Familiar attacker: The window for the abduction is fairly narrow. The one citation I could find was that the girls got to the house around 2:15. Janelle started calling around 7:30 and got no response. So there was about 5 hours, but in reality probably less, because people start stirring around by 5:30 or 6 (newspaper delivery, people going to work, early risers.) Because the girls were ready for bed, but there weren't signs they were in bed, it's likely to be even smaller because they were supposed to meet Janelle so early. Given teenage girls, say between 2:30 and 4:30. That's a guess, but it makes sense to me.
If they were all three in the house when the trouble started, that would mean a random attacker would be breaking into a house with three cars visible outside, on a graduation night when he couldn’t be sure that Sherrill didn’t have a partner/friend staying over. How would a stranger know how many people were in the house? Why wouldn’t a stranger get the dog out of the way, either by letting it out or shutting it into a room or disabling it? Three upset women and a yappy dog would be a lot for even two assailants to handle. So I think either Sherrill or Suzie had to know the attacker(s).
The Front Door: One News-Leader article describes Janelle as opening the front door a crack to see if Sherrill or the girls was inside. So either she found the door open (i.e., unlocked) or knew where there was a key. Either would be very interesting. If the door was unlocked, who unlocked it? Did the girls forget to lock it when they got in? Did they lock it, but later someone opened it to let a familiar person inside? Or did someone know where a key was hidden outside?
Other reasons I think they knew the killer: If the motive was stranger rape or multiple murder, that could have happened at the house. A stranger would multiply risks by transporting 3 grown female rape victims, whether alive or dead—and as I say above, it was clear that more than one person was home. The motive clearly wasn’t robbery. The “personality,” if you will, of this event is orderly and methodical and oddly respectful of property. The shattered porch globe was likely something that happened at the last moment, perhaps when someone was being carried out to a vehicle. Breaking the globe would have made noise and he/they might not have had time to clean it up. And of course, the dog was alive and well and running loose in the house. Since nothing was missing but the women, the motive had to require making at least one or all of them disappear without signs of violence. She had something he/they wanted, or knew something, or stood in the way of something. And maybe the killer(s) needed a window of time before the bodies would be discovered for some reason--to fabricate alibis and/or to make sure that the bodies would never be found.
If drugs were involved, there would have to be a whole lot of money in it for a group to risk abducting three people from a nice residential neighborhood in a town, transporting them somewhere, murdering them and disposing of them without being seen--in a small town that would certainly get turned upside down when these 3 were found to be missing. The drug dealers I read about in the paper just shoot each other and leave the bodies behind. The crack epidemic started around 1985 and was in full swing into the early 90s. Now, crackheads would be cognitively and rationally and emotionally impaired enought to cook up a stupid plan and then fail to abort the mission when something unexpected happened. But it is hard for me to see Sherrill or Suzie involved in crack.
Questions: Was the door locked? Was there an outside key? Did she own the house or rent it? Who were the last occupants? Where were Sherrill and Suzie’s male relatives? Why wasn't Bartt at the graduation? Who were the two suspects seen being polygraphed? Who were the “key suspects” cleared by the police chief? How were they cleared? And why did the investigators think they had a motive to abduct or kill these women? And if the motive was money, where would it have come from, since clearly Sherrill’s ex wasn’t a Donald Trump type and she was a hair stylist who had just moved to a smaller house to economize?
Forgive the long post. As a newbie to this case, I hope I am not just rehashing old ground. On some threads, I see complaints about that. But I am starting to agree with Missouri Mule that the facts needed to clear this thing are already there.
And liz, thanks so much for posting all the links to the News-Leader articles. I had to go back and forth so much I finally bookmarked them. Thanks too for the info on the family having to close Sherrill's estate. Did she, in fact, own the home?
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 12:44 AM
Duh. I tell my students all the time that in research, you don’t look just at the “content,” you look at the patterns and connections and gaps. I had forgotten that the AMW call came from Florida. (And, by the way, does anyone recall a source for that? The Charley Project article just references a call without specifying where it came from.) And I will do some research on the court case next week when I can access Lexis-Nexis, I promise.
You inspired me to re-read the thread and all the pertinent linked materials. In terms of motive, I found this statement in a News-Leader article: “Officers say key suspects who investigators believed had a motive to abduct the women were ruled out by the police chief himself. “ OK. So that tells us that the investigators, at least, had “key suspects” with “a motive.” (And clearly, based on what the News-Leader says, you are right about the need for a clean start here; the investigation didn’t proceed from following leads and developing evidence. Never mind why that happened; the point now would be to start over and sort out what is there.) So your questions about how “key suspects…with a motive” were cleared is at the heart of the matter.
Next observation: The abductions occurred on the girls’ graduation night. The News-Leader tells us that only Sherrill attended Suzie’s graduation. Now, that raises some questions. Certainly, Sherrill’s family (sister, father, uncle and presumably others) lived at some distance from Missouri and any number of factors might prevent them from attending—money, health, even family custom. But where was her older brother Bartt?? In a family of three, a high school graduation might be the kind of event you just wouldn’t miss. Note that Suzie planned to go to beauty school as her mother did, not college, so this would have been a big milestone, THE graduation. Related question: I haven’t seen any comments in news articles from Bartt. Has anyone else seen anything? One would think he would take a lead role in pushing for resolution and answers on this case. His whole family had disappeared. There is coverage about and comments from Stacy’s parents, Sherrill’s sister, and her father and uncle. At the very least, reporters as good as that one with the News-Leader should have been turning the world upside down to find Bartt to get his reaction. And for that matter, the father and stepfather. The father appears to have dropped out of their lives entirely, and evidently Sherrill was trying unsuccessfully to find her ex Don Levitt because his creditors were after her to pay his debts.
That brings us to money. Sherrill had a nice client base and probably did well enough to manage as a single mother. She apparently also had good sense, since she had just moved into a smaller house as a result of the divorce. Did she rent that house? The News-Leader article didn’t say she bought it.
Stranger vs. Familiar attacker: The window for the abduction is fairly narrow. The one citation I could find was that the girls got to the house around 2:15. Janelle started calling around 7:30 and got no response. So there was about 5 hours, but in reality probably less, because people start stirring around by 5:30 or 6 (newspaper delivery, people going to work, early risers.) Because the girls were ready for bed, but there weren't signs they were in bed, it's likely to be even smaller because they were supposed to meet Janelle so early. Given teenage girls, say between 2:30 and 4:30. That's a guess, but it makes sense to me.
If they were all three in the house when the trouble started, that would mean a random attacker would be breaking into a house with three cars visible outside, on a graduation night when he couldn’t be sure that Sherrill didn’t have a partner/friend staying over. How would a stranger know how many people were in the house? Why wouldn’t a stranger get the dog out of the way, either by letting it out or shutting it into a room or disabling it? Three upset women and a yappy dog would be a lot for even two assailants to handle. So I think either Sherrill or Suzie had to know the attacker(s).
The Front Door: One News-Leader article describes Janelle as opening the front door a crack to see if Sherrill or the girls was inside. So either she found the door open (i.e., unlocked) or knew where there was a key. Either would be very interesting. If the door was unlocked, who unlocked it? Did the girls forget to lock it when they got in? Did they lock it, but later someone opened it to let a familiar person inside? Or did someone know where a key was hidden outside?
Other reasons I think they knew the killer: If the motive was stranger rape or multiple murder, that could have happened at the house. A stranger would multiply risks by transporting 3 grown female rape victims, whether alive or dead—and as I say above, it was clear that more than one person was home. The motive clearly wasn’t robbery. The “personality,” if you will, of this event is orderly and methodical and oddly respectful of property. The shattered porch globe was likely something that happened at the last moment, perhaps when someone was being carried out to a vehicle. Breaking the globe would have made noise and he/they might not have had time to clean it up. And of course, the dog was alive and well and running loose in the house. Since nothing was missing but the women, the motive had to require making at least one or all of them disappear without signs of violence. She had something he/they wanted, or knew something, or stood in the way of something. And maybe the killer(s) needed a window of time before the bodies would be discovered for some reason--to fabricate alibis and/or to make sure that the bodies would never be found.
If drugs were involved, there would have to be a whole lot of money in it for a group to risk abducting three people from a nice residential neighborhood in a town, transporting them somewhere, murdering them and disposing of them without being seen--in a small town that would certainly get turned upside down when these 3 were found to be missing. The drug dealers I read about in the paper just shoot each other and leave the bodies behind. The crack epidemic started around 1985 and was in full swing into the early 90s. Now, crackheads would be cognitively and rationally and emotionally impaired enought to cook up a stupid plan and then fail to abort the mission when something unexpected happened. But it is hard for me to see Sherrill or Suzie involved in crack.
Questions: Was the door locked? Was there an outside key? Did she own the house or rent it? Who were the last occupants? Where were Sherrill and Suzie’s male relatives? Why wasn't Bartt at the graduation? Who were the two suspects seen being polygraphed? Who were the “key suspects” cleared by the police chief? How were they cleared? And why did the investigators think they had a motive to abduct or kill these women? And if the motive was money, where would it have come from, since clearly Sherrill’s ex wasn’t a Donald Trump type and she was a hair stylist who had just moved to a smaller house to economize?
Forgive the long post. As a newbie to this case, I hope I am not just rehashing old ground. On some threads, I see complaints about that. But I am starting to agree with Missouri Mule that the facts needed to clear this thing are already there.
And liz, thanks so much for posting all the links to the News-Leader articles. I had to go back and forth so much I finally bookmarked them. Thanks too for the info on the family having to close Sherrill's estate. Did she, in fact, own the home?Impressive post. You'd make a good investigator yourself. That's what I did for 30 years (but not in law enforcement) and was there in Springfield shortly after the abduction. To answer some questions you pose...
1) She had purchased the home some two months prior to the abduction for about $40,000 as I recall. It is a modest home just off a main thoroughfair.
2) The call came from Florida (I am almost certain) as I watched the AMW program myself. I can probably find something concrete on that subject but believe it in fact did come from Florida. But it was "cut" off. (Sure, and I have some swampland in Louisiana that I want to sell.)
3) Suzie did not have a key to the side door. It was the assumption that Sherill was concerned about that door being carelessly unlocked and Suzie's keyring did not have that key attached.
4) Stacy left her shorts on the bed. (it was warm in June) She left the home in her underwear either voluntarily or forced. She was not packed for an overnight stay as she originally had intended to be in Battlefield, a suburb of Springfield but the cops were called when the party got rowdy.
5) A large sum of money was left behind in Sherill's purse indicating that the motive was not money. However, if a larger sum was intended to be taken, it might follow that the money was left behind deliberately or it simply was overlooked.
6) Some photographs were taken. The frames were empty.
7) The cars were moved in the driveway, evidently to make room for the alleged van.
8) Suspects were allegedly ruled out through polygraph tests, yet polygraph tests are not infallible. They also are not admissable in court trials.
9) Bartt was in the "48 hours" piece. He would be 42 years old now. His claim was that "it wouldn't have made any sense" for him to be involved. He did come across as convincing and I viewed the tape many times for new clues. This is what really got me going as I was out of town during the time of the abductions and only really learned how it gripped Springfield after I returned. There were perhaps 40-50 articles appearing in the Springfield News-Leader, and yearly or less often follow-ups.
10) Read the following link and the comments. Read on down. You'll be interested. Try to forget some of the other stuff. Concentrate on the "guest book" section.
http://www.airalex.com/MISSING~ns4.html
11) Great post. You missed your calling. May I call you "Madam Colombo?"
12) P.S. It is my considered opinion that drugs were not the motivating factor here.
13) And would you believe that I saw such a model van and that's quite a story unto itself?
Ok, from the guest book it appears that the rumor was that Bartt was expelled from the home for his drug use. Bartt has two posts expressing his grief and denouncing the website but doesn’t confirm, deny or convey any theories. Bartt does list his email address and invites correspondence………perhaps should be invited to join this discussion?
Maybe a prank but another guest book entry is someone claiming to have witnessed the crime.
The RC victim family member is from Florida as was the disconnected call……?
Wondering about the ex husband/ step father because he would seem to have financial motive…..
IMO the perp would not have to be some one known to the girls if he/she had a gun. D. Radar’s victims cooperated because he assured them they would be ok if they did. Now we know to fight the perp before being abducted and the odds for survival plummet.
Questions:
*How is it known that the cars in the driveway had been moved?
*Whose pictures were in the empty frames? It must be known that they contained pictures or it could be assumed they were empty to start with.
Thank you in advance for reading and replying.
laini
01-05-2007, 01:44 PM
This is all very interesting. Missourri Mule, what do you believe the motive was? Do you know more but can't say? I am confused.
thanks :)
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 02:05 PM
This is all very interesting. Missourri Mule, what do you believe the motive was? Do you know more but can't say? I am confused.
thanks :)
Yes. Some of which I know from personal knowledge but also what I have been told by credible sources. And I hate to be coy about it but I cannot say more. I really can't. With any luck the truth will eventually be known and the pieces will all fit together nicely. But that is by no means a certainty unless the case is solved. And that's anyone's guess. You cannot imagine how frustrating this has been for everyone; most especially the families.
My belief of the motive: Remember Watergate's admonition. Follow the money.
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 02:30 PM
Ok, from the guest book it appears that the rumor was that Bartt was expelled from the home for his drug use. Bartt has two posts expressing his grief and denouncing the website but doesn’t confirm, deny or convey any theories. Bartt does list his email address and invites correspondence………perhaps should be invited to join this discussion?
Maybe a prank but another guest book entry is someone claiming to have witnessed the crime.
The RC victim family member is from Florida as was the disconnected call……?
Wondering about the ex husband/ step father because he would seem to have financial motive…..
IMO the perp would not have to be some one known to the girls if he/she had a gun. D. Radar’s victims cooperated because he assured them they would be ok if they did. Now we know to fight the perp before being abducted and the odds for survival plummet.
Questions:
*How is it known that the cars in the driveway had been moved?
*Whose pictures were in the empty frames? It must be known that they contained pictures or it could be assumed they were empty to start with.
Thank you in advance for reading and replying.
I don't believe it was a prank and I don't believe anyone ought to be invited to join the discussion here unless it is of their own free will. Anyone with internet access should have been able to find this site as I did myself. I just had long ago given up on the case for numerous reasons, which I won't go into here.
I don't believe the ex-husband had anything to do with the crime. I worked child support for over 20 years and can't recall anything remotely similar to this case. People continually got at one another's throats (figuratively speaking) but not to this extent. And I have seen it all. In this case I was strictly an outsider like everyone else.
No one knows what was in those frames. That was in the "48 hour" piece (if I recall correctly) and suggested that they were taken for unspecified reasons. One might extrapolate that the perpetrator(s) might have appeared in one or more of the photographs. Or as you say, they could have been empty frames all along although it would be unusual to hang empty frames on a wall. Nonetheless that possibility cannot be ruled out in that she had only moved in two months prior to the abductions. It is conceivable that she had not yet finished unpacking all of her personal effects.
Please remember that I'm working off my memory of 14 years ago. (I used to have extensive written documents but they are no longer available.)
I believe the fact that the cars were removed came from the remembrances of nearby neighbors who saw the cars in one position during the night but the next day they had been moved to different locations and pointed in different directions. (The driveway was a small semi-circle.) What that would mean, so far as I can determine, was that they would have been moved to allow the entry of the van (if indeed it was a van) to permit the perpetrators to move the women to the back of the van largely out of sight of the public. That would be my conclusion.
The globe over the entry light was broken and a lot of publicity was made of that. Perhaps it was thought that someone might have broken it and cut their hand and there would be DNA available. But the broken pieces should have been in the trash with the DNA. Perhaps it had something to do with the angle of the glass breakage. As a further fyi, DNA is 100% reliable, except for identical twins. Fingerprints and handwriting especially are not.
Thank you M. Mule for your reply.
“Follow the money” hmmm apparently Sherrill made good money at the salon….
I sure hope someone followed up on the poster claiming to have witnessed the crime.
You are right about Bartt being able to find us on his own. I have come here since the Laci case and it seems like a little family so I forget how attainable the site is.
It may be a red herring but I find the empty picture frames fascinating.
http://unsolvedblog.com/archives/25 (http://)
A crime blog suggests that the light fixture was broken so Sherrill or who ever came to the door could not see who was there. A poster on the site says the rumor was a family member did it. Another poster tells a chilling tale of an attempted abduction by two men in a van a few weeks after.
Wish I had seen the “48 Hours”. Maybe I can find a transcript.
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 05:44 PM
Thank you M. Mule for your reply.
“Follow the money” hmmm apparently Sherrill made good money at the salon….
I sure hope someone followed up on the poster claiming to have witnessed the crime.
You are right about Bartt being able to find us on his own. I have come here since the Laci case and it seems like a little family so I forget how attainable the site is.
It may be a red herring but I find the empty picture frames fascinating.
http://unsolvedblog.com/archives/25 (http:///)
A crime blog suggests that the light fixture was broken so Sherrill or who ever came to the door could not see who was there. A poster on the site says the rumor was a family member did it. Another poster tells a chilling tale of an attempted abduction by two men in a van a few weeks after.
Wish I had seen the “48 Hours”. Maybe I can find a transcript.
If I still had my copy of the "48 hours" tape I would send it to you. Unfortunately I packed up about four pounds of material including the tape and shipped it off to a nationally syndicated columnist a number of years ago as her own housekeeper had suddenly dissappeared and never to be found. I never heard anything further. I also had all of the newspaper clippings. I had simply burnt out on the case. I would at one time have given my right arm to have investigated the case. I would have worked for free.
If you can find the "48 hour" piece, you will be addicted to this case. It will break your heart in two. I was actually away on vacation when it happened but when I returned that's all anyone wanted to talk about. And then the "48 hour" piece came along and I went over the edge so to speak thinking about it. It completely consumed me. And then the frustration piled upon frustration nearly caused me to have a heart attack. I won't go into that further but I have an obsessive/compulsive personality and when I get a bone caught in my throat I tend to "go overboard" as my late mother used to tell me.
I can't tell you all that I know. I wish I could, but I can't but I can say this. I wondered at that time how much money a very successful hairstylist could actually make. Evidently it is/was quite a bit.
In the "48 hour" piece, the rolodex shown on camera was said to be "400" names of steady customers. Later reports put it at 250 customers. Whatever, that is a healthy clientele. It so happened that one of the secretaries where I worked used to do this type work in Cabool, Missouri, a less populated town out Highway 60 and probably less lucrative than Springfield would be. She told me that she could easily pull down $600 week where she used to work. Factoring in inflation we are probably looking at $800 in "real" terms today. That's not too shabby for a low cost area like Springfield, Missouri. It is not unreasonable that she may have cleared well over $1000 (or more) a week in 1992. She lived in a very modest $40,000 house that would have had low mortgage payments. She evidently did not live lavishly from outward appearances. Now I don't know if her income was checked with the IRS or with the local banks, BUT.... if I were investigating the case I would be accounting for her income and where it went to. She surely didn't spend it all on cigarettes. Now if that wasn't done, then it wasn't much of an investigation, was it?
BTW, that other site you posted is interesting. Every little tidbit can be helpful. I'm glad that other people feel so strongly about this case. It needs to be solved before all the principles die and evidence is forever lost.
MaryLiz
01-05-2007, 07:49 PM
{And liz, thanks so much for posting all the links to the News-Leader articles. I had to go back and forth so much I finally bookmarked them. Thanks too for the info on the family having to close Sherrill's estate. Did she, in fact, own the home?}
pittsburghgirl, you're welcome...I have been interested in this case for about the past 3 years now. I usually check once every 1 or 2 weeks for new info but Missouri Mule has got me thinking about it all the time now!
Regarding the motive: If it wasn't drugs and it wasn't money it seems that it almost had to be something personal possibly regarding a family member. I'm almost positive that they knew their abductor (s) too. The entry in the guestbook at airalex.com regarding Bartt being thrown out of the house for drug use was the first I had heard that. The only thing I remember reading about him in the News-Leader articles was that he had been ruled out as a suspect. And I didn't even know he was in the Springfield area because in the article on Charley Project it says that Sherrill and Suzanne came to Springfield from Seattle in 1980. I just assumed Bartt, who would have been about 16 then, stayed with his father. Of course, that was 12 years before the disappearance and he certainly could have moved to Springfield since then but I just didn't fit him into the picture until I started reading the guestbook at the airalex website. And also, it said in many of the articles that Sherrill and Suzanne lived at the residence alone. But I also wondered if he was at Suzanne's graduation. And speaking of the guestbook, I don't know what to make of the entries by "Thomas" who says he witnessed the murders.
I did not suspect either of Sherrill's ex-husbands. Even though it said her second husband, Don Levitt wanted her to pay his bills, it also said in the Charley Project article that she hired an attorney to try to locate him but he couldn't be found anywhere. It sounded like he was too lazy to have been involved.
I wish I had seen the 48 Hours program too. 48 Hours needs to go Springfield to do sort of an update and reshow the episode as a 15 year anniversary broadcast. With that anniversary looming, there needs to be more media attention about this case again to get it heated up.
Missouri Mule, you have made some excellent points as well and, although I don't know near as much about this as you do, things are starting to make a little more sense in my mind.
laini
01-05-2007, 10:32 PM
Yes. Some of which I know from personal knowledge but also what I have been told by credible sources. And I hate to be coy about it but I cannot say more. I really can't. With any luck the truth will eventually be known and the pieces will all fit together nicely. But that is by no means a certainty unless the case is solved. And that's anyone's guess. You cannot imagine how frustrating this has been for everyone; most especially the families.
My belief of the motive: Remember Watergate's admonition. Follow the money.
Thanks for replying MMule. I am happy this case is so active here on websleuths right now. Lots of great posts by you and others. Hopefully this will be solved someday.
(follow the money. do you mean, not who commited the crime but who PAID them to commit the crime?)
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 10:33 PM
{And liz, thanks so much for posting all the links to the News-Leader articles. I had to go back and forth so much I finally bookmarked them. Thanks too for the info on the family having to close Sherrill's estate. Did she, in fact, own the home?}
pittsburghgirl, you're welcome...I have been interested in this case for about the past 3 years now. I usually check once every 1 or 2 weeks for new info but Missouri Mule has got me thinking about it all the time now!
Regarding the motive: If it wasn't drugs and it wasn't money it seems that it almost had to be something personal possibly regarding a family member. I'm almost positive that they knew their abductor (s) too. The entry in the guestbook at airalex.com regarding Bartt being thrown out of the house for drug use was the first I had heard that. The only thing I remember reading about him in the News-Leader articles was that he had been ruled out as a suspect. And I didn't even know he was in the Springfield area because in the article on Charley Project it says that Sherrill and Suzanne came to Springfield from Seattle in 1980. I just assumed Bartt, who would have been about 16 then, stayed with his father. Of course, that was 12 years before the disappearance and he certainly could have moved to Springfield since then but I just didn't fit him into the picture until I started reading the guestbook at the airalex website. And also, it said in many of the articles that Sherrill and Suzanne lived at the residence alone. But I also wondered if he was at Suzanne's graduation. And speaking of the guestbook, I don't know what to make of the entries by "Thomas" who says he witnessed the murders.
I did not suspect either of Sherrill's ex-husbands. Even though it said her second husband, Don Levitt wanted her to pay his bills, it also said in the Charley Project article that she hired an attorney to try to locate him but he couldn't be found anywhere. It sounded like he was too lazy to have been involved.
I wish I had seen the 48 Hours program too. 48 Hours needs to go Springfield to do sort of an update and reshow the episode as a 15 year anniversary broadcast. With that anniversary looming, there needs to be more media attention about this case again to get it heated up.
Missouri Mule, you have made some excellent points as well and, although I don't know near as much about this as you do, things are starting to make a little more sense in my mind.Unless I am greatly mistaken about the links, this is only a small smattering of the total number of news articles that dominated the newspaper and television news of that year. I would estimate there were perhaps 50-60 in all. A person wishing to read them all will probably have to go to the reference room of the Springfield library. The reference room is in the lower level and the articles will probably be on microfiche. If someone here is nearby the library perhaps he or she might wish to review the articles and report back to the folks here. I'm too far away to go or I would go myself to rereview the material. I wish I had retained the articles but as I said, I passed them along years ago along with the tape. I supposed I might contact the columnist and see whether she still has the items. That just now occurred to me. We've communicated via e-mail several times. I might do that. But meanwhile anyone else could read the newspaper articles at the library. It is quite extensive. Note: I just sent the columnist an e-mail and will advise if she responds affirmatively.
I had reread those entries from "Thomas." The irony is that he may very well be correct although I doubt seriously he actually saw the crime although one can't say anything for certain. There is no way to contact him so he may be just a crank.
I'll just throw something else into this mix just to flesh this case out a little more. It almost certainly means very little but in the early part of the case there were certain individuals who had made threats on Suzie as she evidently witnessed or knew of their involvement in grave robbing to steal the gold fillings out of deceased teeth. The amount gained was insignificant although quite ghoulish. Seems they got off with a light sentence but it was pretty well conclusive they played no part in the crime. They did not appear to be the sharpest knives in the drawer. That part of the story was in the first part of the "48 hour" piece.
Another sideline was an individual from Joplin who supposedly was suspected of some kind of connection. All kinds of people were being passed along to the police as "suspects" of one kind or another. He was an older man (a pawn shop operative I think) and was shown passing a lie detector test.
When Thomas Mountjoy, the then prosecuting attorney saw that and other things on the "48 hours" piece he instructed the police department they were jeopardizing the possible indictment and conviction of any suspects. It was probably about that time that a lid was put on the case and little new information leaked out. Everything seemed to revolve around the van, or so it seemed. Mountjoy, who I had fairly high regard, is today a circuit court judge in Greene County. The case has gone to a grand jury on some occasions but not enough information was developed to bring any indictments. It almost appeared that there never was any substance to these proceedings. None of them came to anything.
In the "48 hours" piece, the music accompanying the program was haunting and it showed the graduation of the young women. Someone had taped it and their best friend was interviewed as was Stacy's parents and her grandmother. In this respect it was as much a human interest story as full of factual information. However, the effect was to tug at anyone's heart strings. One simply could not believe that somehow this crime could not be solved. We would not have thought that 14 years later the same questions would be asked. And so it goes.
Missouri Mule
01-05-2007, 11:13 PM
Thanks for replying MMule. I am happy this case is so active here on websleuths right now. Lots of great posts by you and others. Hopefully this will be solved someday.
(follow the money. do you mean, not who commited the crime but who PAID them to commit the crime?)Wow! You are getting into an area that I'm going to have be weasel worded. Let's just say there could be both a direct and indirect motive involving money. You'll just have to interpret that as best you can. You might say that I am under a sort of "gag" order in a manner of speaking. On the other hand, it might amount to nothing at all but I did give my word.
Let me just say this. I do not believe the crime was random. I do not believe it was drug related whatsoever. But I do believe that money was the primary motive. And I have felt that way for a very long time.
Let me add one other thing. Today (actually late last night) I took a constructive action that I that I had long considered. The passage of time may in fact work to some advantage in that the emotion and hoopla surrounding this case has long abated. Whether it will come to anything is not yet known but it might. It may have no relevance to the case but on the other hand it might be the key.
I want nothing except that this case be solved. I have no monetary interest whatsoever. But it is time to get it solved while the principles are still alive and the case has a reasonable chance at a solution. Otherwise this will go into the black hole of the Judge Crater category. We actually know more about the "Black Dahlia" and "Jack the Ripper" perpetrators than we do about the perps who did this awful crime. And that's a crime in and of itself.
One final note: Robert Keyes was the original News-Leader reporter on this story. He preceded Laura Bauer and wrote many, many articles about this crime prior to her taking over. I believe he may currently reside in Springfield. And there used to be the "Cracker Barrel" radio program on KTTS radio every Saturday morning at 9 AM. This case consumed most of that program for weeks, if not months thereafter. Dan Shelley was the excellent moderator of this program. He moved on and I believed is now with WCBS in NYC. I also talked at length with him while he was in Springfield. I wonder if he remembers the case. I'll bet he does. Anyone live in NYC?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Update: I have received a reply via e-mail from the columnist. She may be able to get the tape and other materials back to me. She has a deadline on a book she is publishing so has been tied up. I also suggested that she touch bases with Dan Shelley out of NYC when she is up that way. There is a good chance I'll be able to recover the tape and other documents. Here is some more information on Shelley. He spent a lot of time on this case.
http://wcbstv.com/press/local_story_187174356.html
pittsburghgirl
01-06-2007, 04:12 PM
Wow! You are getting into an area that I'm going to have be weasel worded. Let's just say there could be both a direct and indirect motive involving money. You'll just have to interpret that as best you can.
I was tempted to reproduce your whole thought-provoking post, but in doing so, your challenge above will be lost. Thanks, first, for the nice compliment above as to my potential as an investigator. I did a 7 year tour as a welfare caseworker, mostly in intake which involved extensive interviewing and the need to ferret out things people want to keep secret--like money and its sources. However unpractical a Ph.D. in English might seem, it can produce a trained professional reader and interpreter. (As my husband notably said on our first official date, "If I need an interpreter, I'll let you know.") So let me take a shot at interpretation here.
"There could be both a direct and an indirect motive involving money." A direct motive might be: commit this crime and you get money now. Since ordinary robbery was not the motive (unless these were the stupidest robbers of all time), then either something was taken that no one knew about outside the family and/or this was murder for hire.
Let's think about Sherrill, a hairdresser. In my college days as a waitress, I always had cash and usually never put much in the bank. Sherrill would get a check of some kind from the salon for her cut of what her customers brought in. That check might logically go straight to the bank to cover her bills. The cash would go in her purse, and then into wherever she kept cash in the house. It might be that she had quite a bit of it in the house, not in her purse but just stashed in a shoebox or something. If tip money in 1992 went into the bank, a nice chunk of it would have to go to the IRS as well. Today the rules are a lot tighter on tips. That might give us two direct motives involving money: Someone knew Sherrill had a nice stash of cash and could as a result afford to pay accomplices in either cash or drugs. The killers (hired and otherwise) could afford to leave the cash in the purses to make it NOT look like a robbery. Leaving the cash in the purses (so conveniently displayed on the stairs) points to sex crime, serial killer, or "totally inexplicable disappearance."
An indirect motive might be insurance, the liquidation of the estate, etc. It would be interesting to know if she owned the larger house she lived in. If she did, had that house been sold? If so, did she roll all of the profit into the new house? Or did it go into what we would think now of as her estate--bank accounts, bonds, an IRA?
Or you might mean that this crime involves a debt of some kind that was not repaid--either Sherrill owed money or someone owed her money. Maybe someone had already stolen a large amount of money and was under pressure to return it.
Thinking along these lines suggests some possibilities for why the killings didn't happen in the house--murder sort of messes up the resale prospects and also offers way too much opportunity to leave evidence. If the killer had been in the home before, there would be no reason to worry about fingerprints or other signs of his presence. But shooting, stabbing, strangulation is a bigger risk for someone who DID have reason to be in the house and would be leaving traces that were NOT explainable. For that same reason, "disappearing" the bodies would be necessary. The killer was too close to the crime and couldn't afford to leave the "best evidence" in any killing, the body. Perhaps more signficant, someone who KNEW these women and had cared about them might find it impossible to make this look like a serial killing or sex crime in any other way. And if this isn't a sex crime or a serial murder, sooner or later the money will be the focus.
It might be possible for such a person to give hired killers access, get whatever property he wanted from the home (money, pictures), make sure the women were loaded in the van, and then watch it drive away. He could get the pictures and shut the dog inside. No need to lock the door--he wants people to go in the house, find the purses, start looking for women who might well still be alive. The pictures might be a way of remembering the victims as they were before the murder.
He might never have seen the final deeds, whatever they were. Either a drug user or sex offender might be a good choice of accomplice.
Missouri Mule, if you get your materials back, please send me a copy of the 48 Hours video, too. It drives me crazy that I haven't seen it. I might not be able to get to it until Tuesday, but I will ask our college librarian to see if we can get these docs from interlibrary loan, much easier than trekking to Springfield. Librarians are the greatest.
And Jade: Bartt is living in Florida. See MM's earlier post to me about googling those involved in the case.
The 48 Hours video aired on August 13th, 1997 and it is available at:
http://store.cbs.com/item.php?id=4416&sid=580
Missouri Mule
01-06-2007, 05:41 PM
I was tempted to reproduce your whole thought-provoking post, but in doing so, your challenge above will be lost. Thanks, first, for the nice compliment above as to my potential as an investigator. I did a 7 year tour as a welfare caseworker, mostly in intake which involved extensive interviewing and the need to ferret out things people want to keep secret--like money and its sources. However unpractical a Ph.D. in English might seem, it can produce a trained professional reader and interpreter. (As my husband notably said on our first official date, "If I need an interpreter, I'll let you know.") So let me take a shot at interpretation here.
"There could be both a direct and an indirect motive involving money." A direct motive might be: commit this crime and you get money now. Since ordinary robbery was not the motive (unless these were the stupidest robbers of all time), then either something was taken that no one knew about outside the family and/or this was murder for hire.
Let's think about Sherrill, a hairdresser. In my college days as a waitress, I always had cash and usually never put much in the bank. Sherrill would get a check of some kind from the salon for her cut of what her customers brought in. That check might logically go straight to the bank to cover her bills. The cash would go in her purse, and then into wherever she kept cash in the house. It might be that she had quite a bit of it in the house, not in her purse but just stashed in a shoebox or something. If tip money in 1992 went into the bank, a nice chunk of it would have to go to the IRS as well. Today the rules are a lot tighter on tips. That might give us two direct motives involving money: Someone knew Sherrill had a nice stash of cash and could as a result afford to pay accomplices in either cash or drugs. The killers (hired and otherwise) could afford to leave the cash in the purses to make it NOT look like a robbery. Leaving the cash in the purses (so conveniently displayed on the stairs) points to sex crime, serial killer, or "totally inexplicable disappearance."
An indirect motive might be insurance, the liquidation of the estate, etc. It would be interesting to know if she owned the larger house she lived in. If she did, had that house been sold? If so, did she roll all of the profit into the new house? Or did it go into what we would think now of as her estate--bank accounts, bonds, an IRA?
Or you might mean that this crime involves a debt of some kind that was not repaid--either Sherrill owed money or someone owed her money. Maybe someone had already stolen a large amount of money and was under pressure to return it.
Thinking along these lines suggests some possibilities for why the killings didn't happen in the house--murder sort of messes up the resale prospects and also offers way too much opportunity to leave evidence. If the killer had been in the home before, there would be no reason to worry about fingerprints or other signs of his presence. But shooting, stabbing, strangulation is a bigger risk for someone who DID have reason to be in the house and would be leaving traces that were NOT explainable. For that same reason, "disappearing" the bodies would be necessary. The killer was too close to the crime and couldn't afford to leave the "best evidence" in any killing, the body. Perhaps more signficant, someone who KNEW these women and had cared about them might find it impossible to make this look like a serial killing or sex crime in any other way. And if this isn't a sex crime or a serial murder, sooner or later the money will be the focus.
It might be possible for such a person to give hired killers access, get whatever property he wanted from the home (money, pictures), make sure the women were loaded in the van, and then watch it drive away. He could get the pictures and shut the dog inside. No need to lock the door--he wants people to go in the house, find the purses, start looking for women who might well still be alive. The pictures might be a way of remembering the victims as they were before the murder.
He might never have seen the final deeds, whatever they were. Either a drug user or sex offender might be a good choice of accomplice.
Missouri Mule, if you get your materials back, please send me a copy of the 48 Hours video, too. It drives me crazy that I haven't seen it. I might not be able to get to it until Tuesday, but I will ask our college librarian to see if we can get these docs from interlibrary loan, much easier than trekking to Springfield. Librarians are the greatest.
And Jade: Bartt is living in Florida. See MM's earlier post to me about googling those involved in the case.Oh, you're good! Very good. And so close to my scenario, which unfortunately I cannot post here both because I have given my word and because it might conceivably be defamatory to innocent people.
It is indeed a small world. Would you believe that I once worked as a welfare caseworker myself but not in intake. That was always reserved for the "cream of the crop" so to speak because you needed to know all the programs. I was just a run of the mill case maintenance worker. I did that for two years and moved on to child support where I found my true calling. I used to love it so until the federal government gunked it up with so much red tape that only a masochist would want to work there anymore. Enough of that.
I did hear from the columnist today and she is going to attempt to find the material. You would have heard of her, I'm sure. We had several e-mail exchanges and she always replied to my not always positive reviews. If I get the tape back I will let you know. I wonder if I could put it on a DVD. I've never done that before but it might be a good idea regardless as those tapes deteriorate over time.
1) I think we can safely say this was not an ordinary robbery. As you say they would be among the stupidist robbers known. Sherill Levitt was known to be concerned about security. She did not permit Suzie or she had taken it away from her the key to the side entrance. Suzie only had the front door key. Since there was no forced entry, that goes to the "ruse" theory put forth by the detective on "48 hours." But I think that has one major hole in it. I'm a big guy and I can take care of myself and my Mossberg 12 gauge would have a major deterrant in anyone trying to get into my house. In addition I have a fake doorbell so if anyone comes knocking at my door at night they will think I am not at home. I'm not paranoid but I don't want to be bothered and I sure don't want to invite strangers into the home in the middle of the night. Clearly, whoever got into the home was allowed in voluntarily OR, the reported sighting at "Georges" down the street was true after all and they all went back to the home together or with someone from the restaurant. Yet, it seemed to be a given by the detectives that this reported sighting was not valid. I used to believe it was but I can't say any longer. I tend to doubt it. The more likely scenario is that Sherill was known to be home by herself on that night as her daughter was out on the town and not expected to return. If Sherill was home by herself, and concerned about safety, she must, almost certainly, knew the person(s) she let in. I would suggest that she let this individual or persons into the home and then this person(s) allowed the others to enter later or with him/them. Evidently some period of time went by before the young women arrived, as best we can tell. Then they arrived to a house with her mother and the perpetrators. We can speculate on the timeline because it was reported that the van was seen the next day with Suzie driving. So they must have left near daylight after the vehicles were moved in the driveway and the house wiped down for any evidence that might point to the perpetrators.
(Note): I have been told by an acquaintance that the traps in the plumbing were filled with clorox apparently thought to conceal whatever was put down the sinks. That might be anything. And I'm not sure of the credibility of my acquaintance. But supposedly he had an "inside" source. So take it with a huge grain of salt.
2) As to the motive being money as is my scenario, how might anyone know if in fact there were large sums of money on the premises? It makes little sense that someone driving down Glenstone Avenue (the main drag) in the middle of the night would suddenly decide to pick out a small home barely a block off the street to rob the inhabitants. So they must have known there was something there. But how?
3) The "murder for hire" scenario? A possibility. There is a story floating around that some gangster family on the east coast had someone else in mind to be "whacked" and they got the wrong address. Somehow I doubt that as truly plausible, although the professional manner in the way it was carried out tends to lend credence to that theory. Maybe "Tony Soprano" was just getting his training at that time and screwed up royally. But I don't think so.
What do I mean by a direct and an indirect motive? Obviously the direct motive was that they were there to get the money if it existed as thought. But on the other hand, the plan was not necessarily the plan of the one(s) who knew of this money. That is to say "A" knows the facts, but is acting on the behest of "B" who has an interest in what goes down that night. "A" was the means to gain entry but "B", "C" or "D" pursued the matter further than "A" ever intended to or was led to believe. On the other hand, "A" might have been the sole perpetrator. But that would have required considerable persuasive power or other means to subdue three grown women.
I don't know about the other house business. Typically, in Springfield, one sells their home and the proceeds are rolled into the new house. I should know, having bought and sold seven homes during my time there. I would suspect any proceeds (and they may have been small) would have been eaten up in closing costs and/or Sherill just wanted to cash out as much money of the old house. This is an angle I had never thought about until now but again it can't be discounted.
I bolded your observation about the money in the purse. That's worth pondering. But let's consider a totally ridiculous idea. Suppose the money was not hers but was put there by the perpetrators to add further fuel to the theory that this abduction could not possibly have been for the purposes of robbery. Suppose the women were taken for the purpose of "squeezing" Sherill to reveal her secret "stash" that was outside the home. It could have been in a safe deposit box for example. Perhaps there were other valuables in addition to cash. She surely would have complied in that her daughter was being held hostage out in the van. Hmmmm. Thinking about this a moment opens up another pandora's box. In Missouri, it is suggested that wills be retained in a safe deposit box. Only the original can be probated. I wonder if the police ever ran this possibility to ground. And certainly a person could have their will in more than one bank other than her regular bank where she conducts her affairs. (It has been said that the famous comedian W.C. Fields opened up a bank account in every town he performed in.) Or, it could be that the will was the real reason the perpetrators were there. The problem with this is that the abductions were on a Sunday. The banks would have been closed. But it would not have been impossible to believe that the women were taken to a location in the boondocks and then "persuaded" to give up the information and go to the bank location the next day. No one knows with any degree of certainty when they were later murdered. Since Stacy left the house in her underwear she may have been killed immediately to get across the point that they meant business. After Sherill was squeezed and terrified she may very well have given them all the information she had and cooperated the next day and then murdered or for that matter they could have been held captive for days or weeks and then killed by whoever the ringleader(s) were.
I think sometimes that too many people believe that because a person appears to be of modest means that they are somehow living from hand to mouth. That isn't always true. As a caseworker I once had to rescue an old man out of his home that was more a hovel than a home and he had $3,000 underneath the beds and scattered throughout the home. To have looked at him one wouldn't have thought he had a dime to his name.
Anyway, I'll be sure to let you know if I can recover that tape. I want to take another peak although I have viewed it many times. The America Most Wanted piece is also on there but it doesn't really provide much in the way of clues.
Missouri Mule
01-06-2007, 05:43 PM
The 48 Hours video aired on August 13th, 1997 and it is available at:
http://store.cbs.com/item.php?id=4416&sid=580
Well, thanks! There you go. Good investment for anyone interested in this case. Best $30 you'll ever spend.
MaryLiz
01-06-2007, 06:34 PM
Missouri Mule - Just a thought...you don't think drugs were involved at all, even though it was suggested that Bartt was thrown out of the house for drug use. I know we don't know that for sure, someone mentioned it in the guestbook.
The earliest archives of the News-Leader online are from 1999. Nothing before that so any articles from '92 would have to come from a library I'm afraid. I even checked on Newspaper Archive and Newslibrary as well as the News-Leader site itself. I just wondered where that came from, that entry in the guestbook I mentioned above.
MaryLiz
01-06-2007, 06:38 PM
The 48 Hours video aired on August 13th, 1997 and it is available at:
http://store.cbs.com/item.php?id=4416&sid=580
Ken - Thanks...I'm definitely going to get one!
Missouri Mule
01-06-2007, 06:44 PM
Missouri Mule - Just a thought...you don't think drugs were involved at all, even though it was suggested that Bartt was thrown out of the house for drug use. I know we don't know that for sure, someone mentioned it in the guestbook.
The earliest archives of the News-Leader online are from 1999. Nothing before that so any articles from '92 would have to come from a library I'm afraid. I even checked on Newspaper Archive and Newslibrary as well as the News-Leader site itself. I just wondered where that came from, that entry in the guestbook I mentioned above.Are you close to Springfield, then? Do you have any friends or relatives near Springfield? They should have this on microfiche. I once looked up newspapers from way back in the 1940s in St. Louis City. I would think they would also have them there in Springfield as well. When I checked there back in the early days of the case I went there myself as I was missing three or four of the early editions. Fortunately I had a big backlog of newspapers from my two week vacation so I carefully cut out all of those articles and read through all of those but I still had to go to the library to see the ones I couldn't locate. They had the original newspapers but eventually they should put them on microfiche for permanent reference.
No, I don't think that drugs were the motivating factor. It was widely speculated about but unless I am greatly mistaken, Sherill Levitt never had any history of drugs, drug habits or drug dealing. Suzie might have smoked a little pot (who hasn't) but that wasn't the reason for this crime in my opinion. However, if anyone knows differently, speak or forever hold your peace.
MaryLiz
01-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Are you close to Springfield, then? Do you have any friends or relatives near Springfield? They should have this on microfiche. I once looked up newspapers from way back in the 1940s in St. Louis City. I would think they would also have them there in Springfield as well. When I checked there back in the early days of the case I went there myself as I was missing three or four of the early editions. Fortunately I had a big backlog of newspapers from my two week vacation so I carefully cut out all of those articles and read through all of those but I still had to go to the library to see the ones I couldn't locate. They had the original newspapers but eventually they should put them on microfiche for permanent reference.
No, I don't think that drugs were the motivating factor. It was widely speculated about but unless I am greatly mistaken, Sherill Levitt never had any history of drugs, drug habits or drug dealing. Suzie might have smoked a little pot (who hasn't) but that wasn't the reason for this crime in my opinion. However, if anyone knows differently, speak or forever hold your peace.
No, I'm not close to Springfield at all. I wish I was, I love going to libraries and looking up old newspaper archives.
I only wondered about the drug angle not from a standpoint of Sherrill or Suzie's possible use but maybe from Bartt...i.e. if it were true he was thrown out of the house, if he was angry, knew his mom had a stash of cash, etc. The guestbook entry referring to his possibly being evicted sort of stuck in my mind. But I'm way off base with that I'm sure. Thanks anyway.
pittsburghgirl
01-06-2007, 10:00 PM
But on the other hand, the plan was not necessarily the plan of the one(s) who knew of this money. That is to say "A" knows the facts, but is acting on the behest of "B" who has an interest in what goes down that night. "A" was the means to gain entry but "B", "C" or "D" pursued the matter further than "A" ever intended to or was led to believe. On the other hand, "A" might have been the sole perpetrator. But that would have required considerable persuasive power or other means to subdue three grown women.
This is what I meant by "murder for hire." "A" knows Sherrill and Suzie and can gain entrance to the house. This person knows there is money there and needs help from "B", "C" or "D" to get to the money. He "hires" them to help. They are supposed to get a cut or a set fee and/or drugs.
Now, the other possibility is that "B" hears from "A" that Sherrill has money or other property and convinces him that they can confront Sherrill and get it. There, "A" is a follower and "B" is the leader. "B" might have known all along that Sherrill would have to be murdered; maybe "A," as you say, might not have thought things would get that far.
How do you account for the observation that Suzie and Stacy were getting ready for bed before they disappeared? If events were already in motion when they arrived, would they have have done that?
******
Another thought: You said this about the broken light globe: "The globe over the entry light was broken and a lot of publicity was made of that. Perhaps it was thought that someone might have broken it and cut their hand and there would be DNA available. But the broken pieces should have been in the trash with the DNA. Perhaps it had something to do with the angle of the glass breakage. As a further fyi, DNA is 100% reliable, except for identical twins. Fingerprints and handwriting especially are not."
In addition to DNA, if the glass had been stepped on--crushed or ground up--it might indicate whether the light was broken before the killers entered or as they were exiting. Dirt or debris from shoes might have gotten mixed in. Once Janelle and her boyfriend walked on the porch and he cleaned up the class, there would be no way to learn anything from the pieces.
pittsburghgirl
01-06-2007, 10:11 PM
The 48 Hours video aired on August 13th, 1997 and it is available at:
http://store.cbs.com/item.php?id=4416&sid=580
Thanks, Ken! Now I have one on the way, and others who find the thread can get one, too.
pittsburghgirl
01-06-2007, 10:19 PM
No, I'm not close to Springfield at all. I wish I was, I love going to libraries and looking up old newspaper archives.
I only wondered about the drug angle not from a standpoint of Sherrill or Suzie's possible use but maybe from Bartt...i.e. if it were true he was thrown out of the house, if he was angry, knew his mom had a stash of cash, etc. The guestbook entry referring to his possibly being evicted sort of stuck in my mind. But I'm way off base with that I'm sure. Thanks anyway.
Drug use might explain an urgent need for money, either to buy drugs or to settle a debt of some kind to a dealer higher on the food chain.
The eviction might explain why he wasn't at the graduation, but that still sticks out as very odd.
Missouri Mule
01-07-2007, 12:15 AM
This is what I meant by "murder for hire." "A" knows Sherrill and Suzie and can gain entrance to the house. This person knows there is money there and needs help from "B", "C" or "D" to get to the money. He "hires" them to help. They are supposed to get a cut or a set fee and/or drugs.
Now, the other possibility is that "B" hears from "A" that Sherrill has money or other property and convinces him that they can confront Sherrill and get it. There, "A" is a follower and "B" is the leader. "B" might have known all along that Sherrill would have to be murdered; maybe "A," as you say, might not have thought things would get that far.
How do you account for the observation that Suzie and Stacy were getting ready for bed before they disappeared? If events were already in motion when they arrived, would they have have done that?
******
Another thought: You said this about the broken light globe: "The globe over the entry light was broken and a lot of publicity was made of that. Perhaps it was thought that someone might have broken it and cut their hand and there would be DNA available. But the broken pieces should have been in the trash with the DNA. Perhaps it had something to do with the angle of the glass breakage. As a further fyi, DNA is 100% reliable, except for identical twins. Fingerprints and handwriting especially are not."
In addition to DNA, if the glass had been stepped on--crushed or ground up--it might indicate whether the light was broken before the killers entered or as they were exiting. Dirt or debris from shoes might have gotten mixed in. Once Janelle and her boyfriend walked on the porch and he cleaned up the class, there would be no way to learn anything from the pieces.What you say about the broken glass and debris may very well be true. I have no information or speculaton on this.
On your earlier point, there is no particular reason to believe that the room may not have been made to look as though they were getting ready for bed by the intruders instead of the young women. They may have been immediately seized upon entry to the home and Stacy told to take her shorts off. So far as I know it is highly unlikely that any prints or DNA at that time could have been lifted from clothing.
I think your second scenario is the closest to the truth but suppose that neither "A" nor "B" was the driving force behind the abduction? It could have been "C" or "D" or "E" who may not even have been there. If someone like Cox was there; a former Army Ranger, he could easily have subdued the three women. "A" could have been threatened himself to keep his trap shut or the same thing that happened to the women would befall him.
Cox is currently cooling his heels until 2025 in the Lovelady, Texas "maximum" facility. He quite likely guilty of greater crimes than he was convicted of. Furthermore he was a Springfield native and was in town the night of the abduction but his story is so convoluted it is impossible to know if he played any part in the abduction. However, it would certainly make all the sense in the world for him to be the primary "muscle" man as well as the one who ultimately directed events that night. "A" is not likely the one to have ramrodded things there. Sherill is unlikely to have been involved in anything to do with "B" until the night of abduction but almost certainly familiar with "A" and could have been coaxed to let him in.
There is always another alternative scenario and that a person or persons not known to Sherill managed to use a "ruse" (the detective's words) to gain entry. Perhaps dressed as a utility repairman or something like that. I tend not to put much credence in this simply because she was known to be very careful with her security. Another remote possibility is that Suzie was already in custody outside the home and she had Sherill let her in or let herself in the home at which time all three were subdued. This would be the most difficult scenario because nothing may never be known of him or them. They could simply have left town to go on down I44 never to be heard or seen from again.
And that brings the final possible (and I emphasize possible) clue which would be the so-called "moss green" van and the alleged sighting of Suzie behind the wheel with someone else telling her "Don't do anything stupid." Who owned the van? Where did it come from? The van was a very old vintage van and I once extrapolated that perhaps some 22,000 such vans existed in the entire United States and a considerably lower number existed in the State of Missouri. My first thought would be to find every possible van, at least in the State of Missouri, that fit that make and model and rule them out one by one. Evidently the police thought it important as that van sat on the lawn outside the police headquarters for what seemed to be three or four months.
Finally, it has often been said by the police department that they only need one good tip to break the case and that (so far as I understand) all leads previously given them have been exhausted. I'm not convinced of that in view of the fact that neither of my two co-workers who were customers of Sherill were ever interviewed by the police as was stated during the "48 hour piece."
There are two people I would like most to sit down and talk to if I had my druthers. They would be former Lieutenant Webb, now retired, and former KTTS general manager Dan Shelley now with WCBS out of New York. Both, in my opinion are quite knowledgable but are now largely out of the loop. I know where Mr. Shelley can be located. Does anyone know the whereabouts of Mr. Webb?
Enrique Sparta
01-07-2007, 01:47 AM
new person here...
I just heard of this case last night. It interested me a great deal and so I've been doing major research to try and get as many details as possible.
-did Sherrill know Suzie and Stacy decided to end up driving back to the Levitt home. Did Suzie call her mom and say they were coming? About what time did Suzie and Stacy leave the party? Did anybody leave with either of the girls? Were they drunk?
-the server who claimed to have seen the three women in the steakhouse between 1 and 3 in the morning. First off I live in Los Angeles and I don't know any steakhouse that is open at those hours. Was there a bar inside too? Was this really one of Shrerrill's favorite restaurants and she was a regular? Did this employeee notice Sherrill before or did she just see the faces in the news and think back and thought she saw them. Is this woman without a doubt certain she saw the three women? If Suzanne was being loud and rowdy it's possible another employee could back up this woman's claims. If she's credible and certain she saw them this could be important....especially if she had seen Sherrill before in the restaurant since Sherrill was supposedly a regular. I wonder if they checked credit cards receipts just in case. I'm sure they did.
-Robert Cox. Was he in Springfield, MO at this time or not? There must be some way to find out. There also must be a way to know for sure whether he worked with Stacy McCall's father. It's frustrating not to know these possible crucial details. What was Cox in prison for and how long? From the comments he gave to authorities (that I read about) he sounded like he was just dicking the police around. Somebody needs to get a hold of Mr McCall and find out if Cox worked with him or not. They also need to find out where he was in spring/summer of 1992.
-The house. okay I read the women's purses were lined up on stairs. it was a one-story home, yes? What stairs are they talking about? Were there pictures taken out of frames? Somebody who visited the house frequently should've been able to say if there were pictures in there or not and possibly who the photographs were of. Were the frames hanging up or on the ground. Broken? The television was on too I read. Which television, living room or one of the bedrooms? Did the dog normally stay outside at night or inside?
-Were all the beds unmade, looked as if they had been slept in or just Sherrill's? Were either Stacy's or Suzanne's clothes lying around? I read from Missouri's post her pants were found in the home. Is it possible the two girls were in the home already before the kidnappers got there? If not then why were the beds unmade? It makes sense with the book and the glasses that Sherrill may have been interrupted but I don't see why the beds were not made. If the kidnappers tried to shake the house up a little bit I suspect they would've taken the purses, jewelry, etc to make it look like a robbery. All they took was pictures evidently and placed the purses together on the stairs. The blinds being pulled apart in Suzanne's room would suggest she was in bed, in her room, and heard something. I just don't see the kidnappers purposely pulling the blinds apart. If they were gonna do something like that I think they would've made it look like a home robbery. If the girls got home earlier then you'd have to rethink everything. If the time is right then it's likely they surprised the kidnappers by showing up.
-this alleged green van. first off were both cars parked in the driveway? I believe they were....one of the above posts mentions how the cars were moved from where they were parked. How would anyone know this without being there? How do we know where Suzie and Stacy parked their cars when they got home in the middle of the night? And this whole green van incident. Okay if some woman saw a girl who looks like Suzie driving the green van, how could she also hear an unseen man say "Don't do anything stupid." How could she hear that while driving next to the green van or on the opposite side of the street? Was the van parked when this allegedly occurred? And this guy who says he saw a green van that looked suspicious. What made it look so suspicious? I mean he supposedly wrote down the license plate # so must have been really shady to him. But then why toss the paper with the license plate? What was so shady about the van in the parking lot of a grocery store?
-this caller to america's most wanted hotline after the program featured the three missing women case. how do the police know that he may have had vital information? What made them come to that conclusion?
baffling mystery, I've enjoyed reading the posts on this thread.
Missouri Mule
01-07-2007, 01:20 PM
new person here...
I just heard of this case last night. It interested me a great deal and so I've been doing major research to try and get as many details as possible.
-did Sherrill know Suzie and Stacy decided to end up driving back to the Levitt home. Did Suzie call her mom and say they were coming? About what time did Suzie and Stacy leave the party? Did anybody leave with either of the girls? Were they drunk?
-the server who claimed to have seen the three women in the steakhouse between 1 and 3 in the morning. First off I live in Los Angeles and I don't know any steakhouse that is open at those hours. Was there a bar inside too? Was this really one of Shrerrill's favorite restaurants and she was a regular? Did this employeee notice Sherrill before or did she just see the faces in the news and think back and thought she saw them. Is this woman without a doubt certain she saw the three women? If Suzanne was being loud and rowdy it's possible another employee could back up this woman's claims. If she's credible and certain she saw them this could be important....especially if she had seen Sherrill before in the restaurant since Sherrill was supposedly a regular. I wonder if they checked credit cards receipts just in case. I'm sure they did.
-Robert Cox. Was he in Springfield, MO at this time or not? There must be some way to find out. There also must be a way to know for sure whether he worked with Stacy McCall's father. It's frustrating not to know these possible crucial details. What was Cox in prison for and how long? From the comments he gave to authorities (that I read about) he sounded like he was just dicking the police around. Somebody needs to get a hold of Mr McCall and find out if Cox worked with him or not. They also need to find out where he was in spring/summer of 1992.
-The house. okay I read the women's purses were lined up on stairs. it was a one-story home, yes? What stairs are they talking about? Were there pictures taken out of frames? Somebody who visited the house frequently should've been able to say if there were pictures in there or not and possibly who the photographs were of. Were the frames hanging up or on the ground. Broken? The television was on too I read. Which television, living room or one of the bedrooms? Did the dog normally stay outside at night or inside?
-Were all the beds unmade, looked as if they had been slept in or just Sherrill's? Were either Stacy's or Suzanne's clothes lying around? I read from Missouri's post her pants were found in the home. Is it possible the two girls were in the home already before the kidnappers got there? If not then why were the beds unmade? It makes sense with the book and the glasses that Sherrill may have been interrupted but I don't see why the beds were not made. If the kidnappers tried to shake the house up a little bit I suspect they would've taken the purses, jewelry, etc to make it look like a robbery. All they took was pictures evidently and placed the purses together on the stairs. The blinds being pulled apart in Suzanne's room would suggest she was in bed, in her room, and heard something. I just don't see the kidnappers purposely pulling the blinds apart. If they were gonna do something like that I think they would've made it look like a home robbery. If the girls got home earlier then you'd have to rethink everything. If the time is right then it's likely they surprised the kidnappers by showing up.
-this alleged green van. first off were both cars parked in the driveway? I believe they were....one of the above posts mentions how the cars were moved from where they were parked. How would anyone know this without being there? How do we know where Suzie and Stacy parked their cars when they got home in the middle of the night? And this whole green van incident. Okay if some woman saw a girl who looks like Suzie driving the green van, how could she also hear an unseen man say "Don't do anything stupid." How could she hear that while driving next to the green van or on the opposite side of the street? Was the van parked when this allegedly occurred? And this guy who says he saw a green van that looked suspicious. What made it look so suspicious? I mean he supposedly wrote down the license plate # so must have been really shady to him. But then why toss the paper with the license plate? What was so shady about the van in the parking lot of a grocery store?
-this caller to america's most wanted hotline after the program featured the three missing women case. how do the police know that he may have had vital information? What made them come to that conclusion?
baffling mystery, I've enjoyed reading the posts on this thread.I've just now read your post so am late in responding. You ask some important questions.
As to whether the young women called home it could be answered by the police department as Sherill's phone records could have been requisitioned. I'm sure neither had cell phones with them during 1992 and would have had to rely on pay phones or the home they were first at celebrating. I think they left around 1:15 AM in the morning. It would have taken about 20 minutes to get to the Levitt home at that time of night.
The "steak" house in question used to be a "George Lindsay" restaurant named after the Gomer Pyle character. It later became just "George's" and is a short distance from the Levitt home. I believe it was a family restaurant and was on the main drag in Springfield. It was open according to the reports. The waitress did seem to me to be quite credible but the police detectives seemed convinced they were not there. That's where the tape would be helpful as she is on camera if I recall correctly.
Cox was in Springfield during this time to the best of my knowledge. Some have compared him to Ted Bundy in the way he has jerked the police around. He was on death row in Florida before the Florida Supreme Court released him for lack of evidence. That was prior to the abductions in Springfield. He had been working in the area marking utility lines. Did he work with Mr. McCall? I don't know that we have that information. I know that Mr. McCall did work as a finance manager for a local auto dealership north of Springfield because I saw him there when I purchased a vehicle there. I can't verify that Cox worked there and the dealership has since gone out of business. I believe that Mr. McCall has indicated that he has no recollection of working with Cox. It is also possible that this supposed relationship existed at another dealership. I have no information on that but the police would be able to determine that if they bothered to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
14. Robert Cox Florida Conviction 1988 - Released 1989
"Cox was convicted and sentenced to death, despite evidence that Cox did not know the victim and no one testified that they had been seen together. In 1989, Cox was released by a unanimous decision of the Florida Supreme Court that the evidence was insufficient to support his conviction."
http://www.fadp.org/fl_exonerated.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The home was a small home. From viewing it from the outside I would estimate it to have perhaps 1,200 to 1,400 square feet. It was a one story dwelling. The "stairs" evidently have something to do with the side entrance which may have had steps to a higher or lower ground outside the home. Or perhaps the bedroom(s) were sunken below the main level of the home.
As to the vehicle's location it was determined through witnesses (as best as I recall) who said they were parked in one direction in the middle of the night but parked in a different direction when the investigation began in earnest.
As to the van, these were questions that are not answerable. I have wondered the same thing. As best as I can recall a woman next door to the driveway that the van entered was close enough to hear the conversation. It was in June and logical that the window would have been opened in the van as it was unlikely it had air conditioning from that era. Why the man threw away the newspaper and why he thought it looked "suspicious" is not known. (at least according to public accounts.)
As to the call from Florida to AMW, the caller evidently knew something about the case that could only be known by someone privy to the case that was not published. This is normal procedure for police to withhold certain information to weed out false confessers. I have no idea why the police were not more specific but they seemed to be sure that it was legitimate. One might extrapolate, as I do, that it was someone who participated in the crime and wanted to get it on the record as a form of penance for his participation or fully intended to confess or it could have been someone like Cox who just wanted to jerk the police around. As you can see from his documents posted (in PDF) on the internet you can see he hints around the edges but doesn't say anything that would convict him in Missouri where the death penalty is in force. He is now in Lovelady, Texas until 2025 for aggravated robbery or something similar. He may be guilty of far worse. But it cannot be stated with any degree of certainty that he was a participant in this particular crime. See if you can figure out Cox's game from these letters. Springfield police have interviewed him but they came up empty. I really don't know what to make of the letters. His reindition of his employment rings true. I am fully familiar with City Utilities and Southwestern Bell (then SBC and now AT&T). And he says he was in the area although I don't offhand see the relevance unless his uniform he might have worn would have been part of the "ruse" described by the detective in "48 hours." (Ordinarily I don't recall that these utility locators wore uniforms. They were largely identifiable when they carried those long handled paint cans around to paint the areas where utility cables were located. Normally they just wore street clothes as best I can recall.)
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/documents/CoxMay97.pdf
http://springfield.news-leader.com/specialreports/threemissingwomen/documents/CoxMay02.pdf
Enrique Sparta
01-07-2007, 09:38 PM
I'll have to take a look at those letters you linked...interesting stuff.
-1:15. 20 minutes so they probably got home a little after 1:30. That is about an hour earlier than all the reports I've read, articles, disucssion, etc. This could be important. Perhaps the girls were home and in bed or ready for bed when the abductors came knocking? I sure wish we knew whether or not Suzie called home and said she was gonna end up coming back for the night. I don't think they would have but if they did, it might give us a much better idea of when they got home.
-so there was a witness on the cars? in the middle of the night? this could potentially be huge. what time did this person see the cars? they saw nothing else? what was this person doing outside? Did they see the two girls drive up? or what? when did this person first notice the cars and then notice they had been moved? Were lights on in the home? These questions could've been easily answered as soon as this witness came forward with the comments about the cars being moved around. If this witness didn't see anything unsual other than the cars I think it's possible the girls didn't surprise anybody in the act and the abductors hadn't got there yet. Of course they'd still be surprised if they only expected Sherrill home. Also if this witness saw the cars and nothing else then is it safe to rule out anybody following the girls home?
-must find the waitress or at least her comments...especially if she had seen sherrill in there before.....AND the fact she saw all three girls and Suzie was apparently being rowdy, it's definitely something somebody would remember. I wouldn't trust anything the Springfield, MO Police did on this case. Sounds like shoddy work to me.
-Even if Mr McCall can't recall if Cox worked with him, I think it's possible to find out or at least back then it wouldn't have been hard. Ask all the people working at the businesses. Not just Mr McCall but his co-workers. But then again if he can't recall working with Cox that means he never really talked to him in depth. Which means Cox may not have known about Stacy. What was Cox on death row in Florida for? Is he a sexual predator? I'd have to lean towards the possible McCall-Cox connection not ringing true here if the guy can't remember anything about Cox. It's his daughter gone, he wouldn't be lying and certainly it's worth noting if this creep was living in the area at the time and they were co-workers.
-the ruse theory. If Sherrill was concerned for her safety...enough that she didn't allow entry from the side door (not even her daughter) she would probably be extremely cautious late at night of somebody ringing the bell or knocking. the thing about maybe the abductors taking the dog outta the yard and using that to get in is interesting. That's why I'd like to know if they kept the dog inside at night or outside. That would answer that quesiton right there. The broken light/lamp thing on the porch may have been used to gain entry. Perhaps they broke the thing knowing Sherrill would check the noise?
-the blinds and the unmade bed are on my mind too. here's my thoughts. If these abductors wanted to stage something, I think they would've done a lot more than they did, overboard, if they did anything to make it look like something else....it was very little and very odd. if the blinds were shoved up as if somebody was looking out, it makes me think the girls may have arrived before the kidnappers....also the fact that the "wintess" saw the cars parked a certain way late at night leads to this as well. And why take pictures outta the frames?
-the phone call to AMW hotline or police or whatever, okay that's very interesting if this person had information that was not released to anybody. First off did they call the police or America's Most Wanted hotline? And how does this work, the hotline records the info and then hands it over to police? I think this case is cold enough that all information should be released. The FBI can also trace these calls can't they? Even if they aren't on the line long enough and the # is unlisted, they can locate where the phone call was placed. Why was this not done? Florida huh...is this for sure true? I wonder what the caller said.
Gimmie a a while to look at those letters and I will think about it. Thanks I love your posts Missouri Mule.
Missouri Mule
01-07-2007, 11:38 PM
I'll have to take a look at those letters you linked...interesting stuff.
-1:15. 20 minutes so they probably got home a little after 1:30. That is about an hour earlier than all the reports I've read, articles, disucssion, etc. This could be important. Perhaps the girls were home and in bed or ready for bed when the abductors came knocking? I sure wish we knew whether or not Suzie called home and said she was gonna end up coming back for the night. I don't think they would have but if they did, it might give us a much better idea of when they got home.
-so there was a witness on the cars? in the middle of the night? this could potentially be huge. what time did this person see the cars? they saw nothing else? what was this person doing outside? Did they see the two girls drive up? or what? when did this person first notice the cars and then notice they had been moved? Were lights on in the home? These questions could've been easily answered as soon as this witness came forward with the comments about the cars being moved around. If this witness didn't see anything unsual other than the cars I think it's possible the girls didn't surprise anybody in the act and the abductors hadn't got there yet. Of course they'd still be surprised if they only expected Sherrill home. Also if this witness saw the cars and nothing else then is it safe to rule out anybody following the girls home?
-must find the waitress or at least her comments...especially if she had seen sherrill in there before.....AND the fact she saw all three girls and Suzie was apparently being rowdy, it's definitely something somebody would remember. I wouldn't trust anything the Springfield, MO Police did on this case. Sounds like shoddy work to me.
-Even if Mr McCall can't recall if Cox worked with him, I think it's possible to find out or at least back then it wouldn't have been hard. Ask all the people working at the businesses. Not just Mr McCall but his co-workers. But then again if he can't recall working with Cox that means he never really talked to him in depth. Which means Cox may not have known about Stacy. What was Cox on death row in Florida for? Is he a sexual predator? I'd have to lean towards the possible McCall-Cox connection not ringing true here if the guy can't remember anything about Cox. It's his daughter gone, he wouldn't be lying and certainly it's worth noting if this creep was living in the area at the time and they were co-workers.
-the ruse theory. If Sherrill was concerned for her safety...enough that she didn't allow entry from the side door (not even her daughter) she would probably be extremely cautious late at night of somebody ringing the bell or knocking. the thing about maybe the abductors taking the dog outta the yard and using that to get in is interesting. That's why I'd like to know if they kept the dog inside at night or outside. That would answer that quesiton right there. The broken light/lamp thing on the porch may have been used to gain entry. Perhaps they broke the thing knowing Sherrill would check the noise?
-the blinds and the unmade bed are on my mind too. here's my thoughts. If these abductors wanted to stage something, I think they would've done a lot more than they did, overboard, if they did anything to make it look like something else....it was very little and very odd. if the blinds were shoved up as if somebody was looking out, it makes me think the girls may have arrived before the kidnappers....also the fact that the "witness" saw the cars parked a certain way late at night leads to this as well. And why take pictures outta the frames?
-the phone call to AMW hotline or police or whatever, okay that's very interesting if this person had information that was not released to anybody. First off did they call the police or America's Most Wanted hotline? And how does this work, the hotline records the info and then hands it over to police? I think this case is cold enough that all information should be released. The FBI can also trace these calls can't they? Even if they aren't on the line long enough and the # is unlisted, they can locate where the phone call was placed. Why was this not done? Florida huh...is this for sure true? I wonder what the caller said.
Gimmie a a while to look at those letters and I will think about it. Thanks I love your posts Missouri Mule.Please excuse me if I got the timeline slightly wrong. I'm working off the memory of 14 years old. As I said, all those newspaper articles were sent on and I hope to recover them from the columnist who e-mailed me that she would attempt to locate them.
The phone calls should have been verifiable from the police requisitioning the phone records. Any incoming calls should have been identifiable. It would seem that this would be one of the very first things to be checked. If they were checked and no other calls were in evidence, that would argue against the abductors making any advance phone calls and it also argues that the initial person gaining entry did not place any phone calls, so the others entered the home at a pre-scheduled time. And cell phones were virtually unknown at that time. They would have had to come via land line.
My mind's eye seems to recall that at one time a van was pictured in the newspaper that was NOT of the vintage van that was displayed on the police lawn. I believe it was from the 1970s and not the 1960s that the van believed to have been. I think the color of the van was what was intended to convey. I think the house was located across the street from a commercial establishment and there were street lights up and down Glenstone and probably on Delmar as well. It would have been fairly easy to see the vehicles in my opinion. There is nothing that I know of that establishes that anyone saw the vehicles enter the driveway. That would certainly establish a more firm timeline. One can go onto the internet and exactly locate the residence and even satellite photos of where it is located. I've not yet done that but intend to.
As I recall, there were some witnesses who said that they saw the vehicles as they drove by the residence and reported it as the crime was publicized. If true, this would have been prior to the women being taken from the residence since the vehicles were later known to be pointing in the opposite direction.
I should think that it would have been fairly easy to establish whether Cox worked with Mr. McCall. Payroll records that were on file with the IRS and/or Social Security should have been able to have made that connection. Certainly both would be regular employees and not independent contractors. Again, the police have shed no light on that angle. Certainly, if they were employed in the same dealership, the finance manager would know all the salesmen but not necessarily the shop employees who often come and go without great fanfare. What was Cox's actual position? No one seems to know. I'm inclined to disbelieve that connection.
On the broken globe? That's an interesting thought. Make the noise and gain entry when Sherill opens the door to check. I'm disinclined to think the dog would have been put out in the middle of the night. As I recall it was a very small dog; perhaps a Yorkie. I don't know what they did in those days, but typically if one crates their dogs they will not mess in their bed. That's also one of the best ways to housebreak a dog. I believe the dog was found in the home but it was barking in the night. This suggests that it ran out the door as the activity was taking place outside. When the women were in the van, then the dog was put back into the home to keep the noise down would be my thinking.
A thought occurred to me and that was the matter of the blinds. If one individual gained entry with the expectation that his cohorts would come along shortly, it would follow that he might be looking out of the blinds to see when they would arrive. I don't see any particular reason why Sherrill or the young women would have had reason to appear out of the blinds unless they were expecting someone else. On the other hand, it may mean nothing but it is doubtful that they would be left in this state based on Sherill's concern for safety.
I really need to look at those newspaper articles again to go over the known facts providing I can recover them. At the time the case was new I read the articles both in chronological and reverse chronological order primarily to avoid reading material that was later proven to be discounted. There was an earlier sighting that sounded very credible until another woman came along and established that it was her instead of Sherill so I didn't need to read that again. The "George's" connection seemed to fall off the radar soon after the case began. But certainly your skepticism is entirely justified. I don't know how the police ruled it out exactly.
Enrique Sparta
01-08-2007, 12:17 AM
-they probably got the right time considering some friends at the party would easily be able to say at about what time Suzie and Stacy left. so it's probably correct in that they arrived at about 2:15 AM. I also read where Sherrill telephoned a friend at about 11:15 PM and she also received a call from Suzanne at 10:30 PM to discuss her plans for the next day. So obviously the authorities must've checked the phone records. Probably safe to say Sherrill had no idea Suzie and Stacy were on their way back and they both arrived after 2 AM.
-the blinds would probably really have to be pulled apart for them to stay that way. I can't picture the kidnappers staging the home to look like something else had happened. If they did, why put the three purses together in an odd space. That's just weird. They may have been pulled by the kidnappers but also by one of the women. Especially if Sherrill heard something (the globe breaking) and freaking out (evidently she was worried for her safety) certainly it's plausible she may have been reading in bed, heard something, and then was abducted. The only problem with this is that then why would the kidnappers wait around for the other two? Nobody except those two girls knew they were coming home. I can't shake the idea that the girls got home before the abductors.
-interesting about the witnesses noticing the cars as they drove by. i wish we knew approximately what time that was.
-i'm also inclined to put too much into the Cox/McCall employee relationship thing.
pittsburghgirl
01-08-2007, 12:36 AM
Enrique Sparta, some of your questions can be answered by the Charley Project site, http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mccall_stacy.html.
As you will see, the girls were thought to arrive at Sherrill and Suzie's house around 2:15. The party they were attending was broken up by police around 1:40 a.m. That information is available on the News-Leader archive link in this thread (about 1/2 through). I found all of the articles useful.
The pictures are a bit of a puzzle, but I see 3 possibilities: the killer(s) took them for personal reasons; he/they took them because they contained information that might identify him or them; he/they took them to taunt the investigators as part of the staging. Or--for a combination of these reasons. If Suzanne had hung pictures 2 months after the move, they would not be empty frames. And women do not remove photos and then rehang them. I'd bet the ranch on that.
I am still digesting some new thoughts (so to speak) after having spent all day getting ready to start teaching again tomorrow. Let's try to keep this energy going to see what we might be able to do to turn up some new information.
Missouri Mule
01-08-2007, 12:48 AM
-they probably got the right time considering some friends at the party would easily be able to say at about what time Suzie and Stacy left. so it's probably correct in that they arrived at about 2:15 AM. I also read where Sherrill telephoned a friend at about 11:15 PM and she also received a call from Suzanne at 10:30 PM to discuss her plans for the next day. So obviously the authorities must've checked the phone records. Probably safe to say Sherrill had no idea Suzie and Stacy were on their way back and they both arrived after 2 AM.
-the blinds would probably really have to be pulled apart for them to stay that way. I can't picture the kidnappers staging the home to look like something else had happened. If they did, why put the three purses together in an odd space. That's just weird. They may have been pulled by the kidnappers but also by one of the women. Especially if Sherrill heard something (the globe breaking) and freaking out (evidently she was worried for her safety) certainly it's plausible she may have been reading in bed, heard something, and then was abducted. The only problem with this is that then why would the kidnappers wait around for the other two? Nobody except those two girls knew they were coming home. I can't shake the idea that the girls got home before the abductors.
-interesting about the witnesses noticing the cars as they drove by. i wish we knew approximately what time that was.
-i'm also inclined to put too much into the Cox/McCall employee relationship thing.I suppose it is possible that the girls got home before the abductors. Hard to say one way or another. Don't know that it is particularly critical, however. As I recall, Delmar is sufficiently wide enough for the van to have been parked in the street by the curb. The young women could have driven in together, walked into the home or were let in or hustled in and they were quickly subdued. I don't get the purse thing either but evidently the abductors were trying to "tidy" up the house before they left. It may have meant little or nothing. I am inclined to believe that Sherill was home by herself when she was disturbed by the knock or ringing doorbell. She would naturally have turned the book over on the bed to retain the page she was reading (probably had reading glasses - presbyopia you know), and went to the door, peaked out and saw someone she recognized and let in the house. He could have been by himself or once she cracked open the door, the others simply forced open the door, grabbed her mouth to keep her quiet and that's when the dog ran out of the house. He/they went about their business and heard the dog barking and let him back in. And then the young women arrived home unexpectantly and likewise were subdued upon entry.
But we still have an unanswered question. If the logical suspects were actually cleared by polygraph, then who would she have let in? The abductors couldn't have known the young women would be coming home unless they had followed them home from the party in Battlefield. But it would be hard to imagine that everyone at that party would not have been interrogated at length. So far as I know, no one has ever come forward stating that they stopped on the way back to the Delmar address. So it would appear they came straight home. One can go to Mapquest and figure the mileage and the approximate location to the home. It is right at 11 miles from the party address to the Delmar address. That should take no more than 20-25 minutes at that time of night. Let's see if this link works. I just picked out an address near where I used to live in Battlefield and you can see the route to be taken.
http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&1gi=0&un=m&1da=-1.000000&1rc=L1AAA&cl=EN&qq=1ADqpk24ofBk4OWLmqHRtiFMe6GkYCdIOZnvKosLO5oKek8 TsQwTeVZdwkbDPY5XPyFV4yej3R2FCX4LvbCkksTM4cZF1wlaj 7pB9M22fFzmjFIVtyK35E9oFO0RRNOKkS2ECNzlbhzSU2GBaI1 RyOKwX2%252bQo1Zjms%252bpdz78pSqc%252bRP0PmV1ghKJp vcpk11ZbFQiZo0agVcPXEnsgb4%252bBw%253d%253d&ct=NA&r=f&1si=navt&rsres=1&1y=US&1ffi=&1l=wy543aqfNHMSQXnXdM%252fQ1w%253d%253d&1g=EgStM7aKzs2mcfqYiQG9TA%253d%253d&1pl=&1v=ADDRESS&1n=GREENE+COUNTY&1pn=&1a=4211+W+MONTERREY+ST&1c=BATTLEFIELD&1s=MO&1z=65619-9225&2y=US&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&2pn=&2a=1727+E+DELMAR+ST&2c=SPRINGFIELD&2s=MO&2z=65804-0255&panelbtn=2#south
Enrique Sparta
01-08-2007, 01:30 AM
thanks pittsburghgirl, all those articles are very helpful. on the video in the multimedia section, you can see a very quick glance at one of the bedrooms, looks like Suzie's. I wish I could freeze it and check out the picture but it won't let you. I'm gonna purchase the 48 Hours segment.
Missouri, I think you're right on when you say "find the motive, solve the crime." by the way do you have Google Earth? You'll be able to see the home from above and the entire area, all you need to do is type in the address. go to google and download it, it's free.
MaryLiz
01-08-2007, 08:50 AM
I am thinking that the girls did get home before the abductors were in the house. It said in the newspaper articles that it was apparent they had gotten ready for bed and washed their faces. If someone was already in the house, they probably weren't giving the girls time to do that. Whoever planned this wanted it carried out quickly.
I think the blinds were opened by one of the perps who was sort of looking out to make sure no one saw them and they were accidentally left apart.
Everything that happened, I'm sure, was planned and it had to go smoothly and quickly. The only concern was getting the girls into the van or whatever vehicle was used and getting them out of there. It's just a guess, but I would have to think that someone Sherrill knew came to the door after the girls got home and either broke the globe and that's what brought her to the front door, or they simply knocked and gained entry because they were known to Sherrill.
Missouri Mule
01-08-2007, 11:13 AM
In Springfield, most homes of that era were build over crawl spaces. Where I live in Texas most homes and businesses are built on concrete slab foundations. Many homes in Springfield now have basements but they are not a requirement as in St. Louis, for example. I never had a basement in my seven homes in Springfield. All had crawl spaces of anywhere from two to four feet to gain access to the plumbing.
It would have conceivably been possible to have gained access to the interior of the home without the front door been opened had someone entered from the crawl space and came through a floor entrance. I had one in my last home in the closet.
Just a further thought to consider.
Missouri Mule
01-08-2007, 12:00 PM
thanks pittsburghgirl, all those articles are very helpful. on the video in the multimedia section, you can see a very quick glance at one of the bedrooms, looks like Suzie's. I wish I could freeze it and check out the picture but it won't let you. I'm gonna purchase the 48 Hours segment.
Missouri, I think you're right on when you say "find the motive, solve the crime." by the way do you have Google Earth? You'll be able to see the home from above and the entire area, all you need to do is type in the address. go to google and download it, it's free.
Thanks. I downloaded it but the free version is too blurry to make out much detail. If I had an extra $400 I'd spring for the professional version. No wonder Google's stock is selling for $484 a share as I write this. Pretty neat, nonetheless.
Now eaten up with curiosity about the steps the purses were found on. Most likely just a small step up as MM said from a “sunken” area but just breaks my heart to think of what was just a routine place where pocket books were kept. At first I thought there might be some sort of attic with perhaps a small dormer room led to by a narrow set of stairs.
With some sort of further education possibly expected for Suzy perhaps Sherrill was squirreling her money away.
The pictures gone from the frame leads one to think “trophies” of a madman like BTK. Totally at ease and poised enough to calmly take them out and place the empty frame back with the pictures missing just like the girls. <Shudder>
Enrique Sparta
01-08-2007, 02:24 PM
mule-yeah the google earth is neat. since you lived in the area you can probably recognize a lot of the places but it's too blurry for detail. I didn't know they had a pay one, but $400!
liz-I, too, think they were already in the home. Interesting point on the photos being a "trophy" type thing. Also interesting whoever said the perps may be identifiable in those pics although that would give police a starting point. Sounds like they didn't follow through on that. I'm surprised there wasn't evidence of some type of struggle or anything at all because I believe these people expected Sherrill to be alone. Even if they cleaned up after they kidnapped the three women, you know it would be so difficult to leave nothing at all amiss, no hairs, no prints, no nothing. But so many people were in the home the next day, it's too bad.
-here's what I'm thinking. Pretty unlikely anybody followed Suzie and Stacy home. Based on the time frame given when they left the party and arrived at Suzie's house, it makes perfect sense so I don't think they stopped anywhere in between the last party and when they went to Janelle's house. Nothing seemed outta the ordinary to anybody at the party and if the abductors wanted either of these girls, there would be much better times to do it. Which means it was directed at Sherrill. Also unlikely this was a random crime. It was somebody Sherrill knew and if that's the case, VERY odd it happened to be on a night when NOBODY was gonna be home except her. I wonder if it was common for Suzie to stay at friends houses or she was out often. It could be coincidental that the grad night was gonna be picked in which Suzie was gonna be outta town or at a friend's house. But if it wasn't, that particular night was planned, then list of suspects really narrows.
MaryLiz
01-08-2007, 02:38 PM
One thing that keeps bothering me is, if the attack was planned and only directed at Sherrill, and if it was someone she knew, they would have probably known Suzie was out and would not come home until very late. So why didn't they just get Sherrill when she was home alone? They would have had time with Suzie out at graduation parties. I keep thinking maybe the attack was directed at Sherrill AND Suzie. Maybe whoever did this knew that if they took Sherrill alone, Suzie might be able to point a finger at them and they would be found out. The thought crossed my mind that maybe whoever did this was parked near the home waiting for Suzie to return. Unfortunately, Stacy was with her. I just keep thinking if Sherrill was the lone target, they would have had a perfect opportunity to get her while Suzie was partying. Certainly there would have been enough time and it would have been late enough too where they could have taken Sherrill by herself. It just doesn't make sense to me that they "happened" to get to the house soon after Stacy and Suzie got there. It just keeps sounding like it was planned out in advance and they very well could have been watching.
Missouri Mule
01-08-2007, 04:12 PM
One thing that keeps bothering me is, if the attack was planned and only directed at Sherrill, and if it was someone she knew, they would have probably known Suzie was out and would not come home until very late. So why didn't they just get Sherrill when she was home alone? They would have had time with Suzie out at graduation parties. I keep thinking maybe the attack was directed at Sherrill AND Suzie. Maybe whoever did this knew that if they took Sherrill alone, Suzie might be able to point a finger at them and they would be found out. The thought crossed my mind that maybe whoever did this was parked near the home waiting for Suzie to return. Unfortunately, Stacy was with her. I just keep thinking if Sherrill was the lone target, they would have had a perfect opportunity to get her while Suzie was partying. Certainly there would have been enough time and it would have been late enough too where they could have taken Sherrill by herself. It just doesn't make sense to me that they "happened" to get to the house soon after Stacy and Suzie got there. It just keeps sounding like it was planned out in advance and they very well could have been watching.This makes sense to me. Certainly a possibility. Suzie would obviously be able to point to any number of suspects if Sherill were taken by herself. Certainly Suzie would have been able to identify the individuals in the photos.
It was said in the original reports that Stacy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's probably true.
One final thing I want to point out and then I'm pretty much exhausted on what I recall and what I can contribute. And this goes to the van. The Dodge van was apparently among the "first generation" of modern vans that are so common today for carrying cargo, etc. The question that comes to mind is that it was seen to be as "moss green" in color yet some have suggested it could have been some other color including dark blue as the van was seen in the early hours. The daylight would have come fairly early as the longest day of the year would have been about 6/20/92 when summer came. So the breaking daylight would have been about 5 PM or sooner so in addition to street lamps it would also have been identifiable through natural light.
Let's assume that the van was indeed seen on the night of the abductions and positively identified as "moss green" as shown in the photograph. (BTW, the van was a similar vehicle that was "rescued" from the scrap yard and painted to resemble the actual reported van.)
Let me briefly digress. I am reminded of two movies, "The Day of the Jackel" and "The Jackel." In both movies the vehicles were painted to throw off the the authorities. In the original movie, the vehicle was painted over the original color. In the second movie the van was painted with a water based color that was washed off to the original color.
Here's where I am coming from. In the middle of autumn I did in fact see an identical van but it was not "moss green" but dark blue. This was reported to the police along with the license plate number. I never heard anything further. Subsequently I saw this vehicle again and saw it clearly. It was always dark blue and never "moss green." But this was several months later and if a water based paint was placed on this van it is conceivable that it was painted green for the June abduction. While everyone was chasing a green van, the blue van just drove around and either wouldn't be noticed or it was discounted because it didn't fit the narrative of a "moss green" van.
Enrique Sparta
01-08-2007, 04:14 PM
agree excellent points liz325
Enrique Sparta
01-08-2007, 04:20 PM
the cops seemed to put all their time into this green van theory. i've read conflicting reports on the color too and your tip should've been checked, some said moss green, some said dark blue, or brown.
i wonder how credible this woman is who says she saw the green van driven by a blonde who looked like Suzie and she heard a guy say "don't do anything stupid." What did the guy then do once they were in the driveway? Did he go into a home? The cops must've had something to go on there if they believed this woman right? Who lived there? What was their story? The witness was just sitting on her porch when the van pulled up (I think)
SupesK6
01-09-2007, 11:37 AM
Great discussion going here! I've been following it for some time, but felt the need to post now with just a couple things that may or may not be important. This case has fascinated me ever since I did some fundraising work with One Missing Link when I was in school at (Southwest) Missouri State. I hope one day there is a resolution. It absolutely baffles me that three people could just disappear off the face of the earth like this and no one can seem to figure out what happened.
The broken light or fixture bothers me. It just seems out of place with the rest of the scene. Why go to the trouble of tidying up (I had never heard rumors of the bleach found in the drains until it was posted here, but if true it furthers the point) but not clean up the glass from the broken light/fixture? I wonder if one of the women broke it as an indication that things were not as they seemed as they were being ushered out and the perp(s) either did not know or had to make such a hasty get-away that they didn't have time to clean it up. If so, the fact that it was missed as such a clue (though subtle) cost valuable hours early in the case. If not, it leads me to believe that the person or persons responsible didn't do anything to contrive the scene, but merely snatched and grabbed.
Also, if grand jury proceedings were initiated, against whom was evidence presented? I'd assume there would have to be a strong suspicion associated with someone in order to move forward with such things. Was it Cox? Or were there other suspects that the police had that I don't know about?
Missouri Mule
01-09-2007, 11:52 AM
Great discussion going here! I've been following it for some time, but felt the need to post now with just a couple things that may or may not be important. This case has fascinated me ever since I did some fundraising work with One Missing Link when I was in school at (Southwest) Missouri State. I hope one day there is a resolution. It absolutely baffles me that three people could just disappear off the face of the earth like this and no one can seem to figure out what happened.
The broken light or fixture bothers me. It just seems out of place with the rest of the scene. Why go to the trouble of tidying up (I had never heard rumors of the bleach found in the drains until it was posted here, but if true it furthers the point) but not clean up the glass from the broken light/fixture? I wonder if one of the women broke it as an indication that things were not as they seemed as they were being ushered out and the perp(s) either did not know or had to make such a hasty get-away that they didn't have time to clean it up. If so, the fact that it was missed as such a clue (though subtle) cost valuable hours early in the case. If not, it leads me to believe that the person or persons responsible didn't do anything to contrive the scene, but merely snatched and grabbed.
Also, if grand jury proceedings were initiated, against whom was evidence presented? I'd assume there would have to be a strong suspicion associated with someone in order to move forward with such things. Was it Cox? Or were there other suspects that the police had that I don't know about?The broken light or fixture was most probably done at the time that the women were being loaded into the back of the van. The debris was later cleaned up by one of the friends and not by the perps. It would follow that they wanted to make a quick "getaway" and didn't want to bother with cleaning it up. Had I been the perp I would simply have grabbed a tire tool out of the van and knocked the light out to obscure the women being loaded into the van. Of course, one might say that they could have reached inside the house and turned off the switch but that would have left a possible fingerprint after the house was scrubbed clean of evidence and they wanted to be gone without further delay. I've never really understood why this is particularly important to the investigation. It seems obvious to me what happened.
The grand jury proceedings: I have no direct knowledge but it is believed that other names were involved. I know of at least one myself who has never been mentioned in any of the stories. There are others as well, 4-5 I would think a conservative estimate. The names are not published because the evidence doesn't exist to get a conviction. However, the biggest detriment to the case is the fact the bodies have never been discovered. If that were somehow to occur, the public clamor to do something would be overwhelming and the logjam would break loose.
I believe that in fact the crime scene was in fact contrived; especially the purses and the state of the bed and clothing. Stacy left the home in her underwear, yet her shorts were laid out neatly on the bed. This was an "organized" professional job.
However, the biggest detriment to the case is the fact the bodies have never been discovered. If that were somehow to occur, the public clamor to do something would be overwhelming and the logjam would break loose. We believe this will happen any day now. Stay tuned.
Missouri Mule
01-09-2007, 06:38 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why DNA hasn't been (or perhaps it has) used to identify the individuals who were in the home that evening? I can't recall that this subject has ever been discussed.
It is said that whenever we are somewhere that we leave a little part of us behind; a strand of hair, skin, whatever. Although DNA was not yet perfected or used back then as it is now, wouldn't it have followed that the home would have been swept clean of any possible ties to the abductors?
While the DNA of the victims is unimportant because they were known to be living there, anyone else other than Bartt (as he once lived there) would have to explain what they were doing in that home. Most could be eliminated quickly such as the friends and other relatives, but if someone like Cox were there he could not explain it. His DNA is on file with the Texas Department of Corrections. And DNA is 100% reliable except in the case of identical twins.
Thoughts? Any DNA experts among the folks here?
miles_draken
01-09-2007, 09:25 PM
Has some further developments come up with the scanning of the parking lot, Ken? Is that the reason you believe the bodies are going to be discovered?
Has some further developments come up with the scanning of the parking lot, Ken? Is that the reason you believe the bodies are going to be discovered?
Yes. The approval that we were waiting on came through. I can't say anything more.
Missouri Mule
01-09-2007, 11:55 PM
Yes. The approval that we were waiting on came through. I can't say anything more.
Do you have any timeframes before they actually do something? Remember that over 14 years have elapsed already. I can't tell you how many times in my working career I've had people promise but not deliver. Hope you're right. If they say 8:00 call them at 8:15. Don't let this be delayed. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The silent wheel is ignored. If this doesn't pan out it will be yet another excuse to not do any further investigation.
I hate to be negative but it could be more of the same foot dragging. But I hope that I am wrong. I hope you got this promise from someone high up the food chain. Good luck.
Enrique Sparta
01-10-2007, 12:44 AM
Mule,
you're probably right in that the broken light isn't critical. However when you read a story on this case or a file or whatever it's always mentioned that the broken light shards of glass were swept up and thrown out and the police say that may have included evidence. I don't think there would've been much to go on re: evidence if Janelle and Mike hadn't swept up the glass. There's a possibility but I don't think it's likely they would've gained any important information from the broken glass. Your scenario makes more sense and the idea that they thought the broken glass was critical shows how poor the Springfield, MO Police Department handled this case.
Do you have any timeframes before they actually do something?
There is one more meeting that has to take place. Sometime next week, we will know the exact date. However, we will not be able to post it.
Missouri Mule
01-10-2007, 10:31 AM
There is one more meeting that has to take place. Sometime next week, we will know the exact date. However, we will not be able to post it.
Don't let yourself get snookered into further delay. A long time I worked as a collector for a loan company. I was quite successful. I found out that when someone said they would be in to make a payment at 8 AM and wasn't there by 8:15, I was on the the phone to them at their home, their job and three neighbors to deliver messages to their door. They may not have shown up at the appointed time but they were in shortly thereafter. Don't put up with broken promises or you will be given the bum's rush.
Missouri Mule
01-10-2007, 10:49 AM
Mule,
you're probably right in that the broken light isn't critical. However when you read a story on this case or a file or whatever it's always mentioned that the broken light shards of glass were swept up and thrown out and the police say that may have included evidence. I don't think there would've been much to go on re: evidence if Janelle and Mike hadn't swept up the glass. There's a possibility but I don't think it's likely they would've gained any important information from the broken glass. Your scenario makes more sense and the idea that they thought the broken glass was critical shows how poor the Springfield, MO Police Department handled this case.There are three likely conclusions, based on public information. 1) police incompetence, 3) perfect crime, or 3) complicity.
There are very few unknowns. We know for a certainty the department was overwhelmed with information but if it was not acted on responsibly the crime would not be solved. And was anyone on another's "payroll?"
Follow the money.
Missouri Mule
01-10-2007, 11:42 AM
I had forgotten about this quarry. Interesting angle.
http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20000505/NEWS01/70106011
rebzzz
01-11-2007, 09:06 AM
Can anyone give me information about the Jackie Johns murder in Christian County Missouri.
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 10:52 AM
Can anyone give me information about the Jackie Johns murder in Christian County Missouri.
What do you want to know?
I don't think there is any big mystery about that case. Maybe he is out there looking for the "real killer" like O.J. Simpson is today. Some believed the chief suspect was involved in this case as well. I'm agnostic.
rebzzz
01-11-2007, 11:17 AM
I am from the area and things are said..wondered if anyone is thinking about a connection between parties involved in the jackie john case and the three missing women. certain names keep coming up in both cases.
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 11:25 AM
I am from the area and things are said..wondered if anyone is thinking about a connection between parties involved in the jackie john case and the three missing women. certain names keep coming up in both cases.This was widely speculated at the time. The police would certainly have been made well aware. The chief suspect was later jailed on an unrelated, unsucessful abduction. So far as I know he is walking free. I used to see him frequently.
rebzzz
01-11-2007, 11:33 AM
the county is very corrupt and has been for many years. the good ole boys rule and get away with what ever they do. i believe the quarry speculated about in the that county not far from ozark. i dont want to defame the dead but ms. levitt was dealing coke and was about to turn people in...at least i have heard it over and over from several people.
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 12:05 PM
the county is very corrupt and has been for many years. the good ole boys rule and get away with what ever they do. i believe the quarry speculated about in the that county not far from ozark. i dont want to defame the dead but ms. levitt was dealing coke and was about to turn people in...at least i have heard it over and over from several people.And how would they know that? Do they know that from personal knowledge or are they just repeating rumors? What evidence and what witnesses said that she did? I'm very dubious about such reports.
There is/was an old inactive quarry near downtown Springfield and there is/was another active quarry just off 65 in Christian County.
MaryLiz
01-11-2007, 02:15 PM
I had forgotten about this quarry. Interesting angle.
http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20000505/NEWS01/70106011
MM - this is interesting. I don't know the reasons behind it, but from what I gather from reading and re-reading everything, I agree that there was a massive coverup involved in this case. Otherwise, I think it would have been solved by now. Interesting too that there was a red Mitsubishi in the quarry. If I remember right, one of the girls, either Stacy or Suzie had such a car I believe. I know it wasn't their's but still it's an eerie coincidence.
rebzzz
01-11-2007, 05:55 PM
And how would they know that? Do they know that from personal knowledge or are they just repeating rumors? What evidence and what witnesses said that she did? I'm very dubious about such reports.
There is/was an old inactive quarry near downtown Springfield and there is/was another active quarry just off 65 in Christian County.
a party i used to know whose wife was passing from cancer bought it from her to aid in her pain relief. suzi turning people in has been said by many people over the years. so, i guess, calling it dubious could be correct. but just how do you make people dissappear so completely and for so long? the right people with the right connections. one person could probably pull off such crime but i dont believe it. and i just dont believe it was a random crime or a crime of opportunity. if the good ole boys were involved they certainly could hinder any investigation. after all one was the law south of springfield.
there are two quarries in christian county.
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 09:24 PM
a party i used to know whose wife was passing from cancer bought it from her to aid in her pain relief. suzi turning people in has been said by many people over the years. so, i guess, calling it dubious could be correct. but just how do you make people dissappear so completely and for so long? the right people with the right connections. one person could probably pull off such crime but i dont believe it. and i just dont believe it was a random crime or a crime of opportunity. if the good ole boys were involved they certainly could hinder any investigation. after all one was the law south of springfield.
there are two quarries in christian county.
With all due respect, and if I understand your post correctly, you are going on heresay information. What do you know from personal knowledge?
I do, however, agree with you that this was not a random crime or crime of opportunity. On that we are in complete agreement.
Are you referring to Christian County "good ol' boys"? Is that supposed to be significant?
Here is a list of the quarries and mines in Christian County.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~moccl/Places/ccmmines_page3.htm
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 09:30 PM
MM - this is interesting. I don't know the reasons behind it, but from what I gather from reading and re-reading everything, I agree that there was a massive coverup involved in this case. Otherwise, I think it would have been solved by now. Interesting too that there was a red Mitsubishi in the quarry. If I remember right, one of the girls, either Stacy or Suzie had such a car I believe. I know it wasn't their's but still it's an eerie coincidence.
I doubt it. In any event the quarry has been drained and is part of the Jordan Creek renewal project. A minor league ball park is next to it if you check the maps.
What has to happen is that some insider has to turn state's evidence and/or the police department putting this case front and center and putting the necessary effort into solving it. I've yet to see evidence that this will be done. The truth is, and I'm not being facetious, is that we actually know more about who "Jack the Ripper" was and who murdered the "Black Dahlia" in the L.A. area back in the 1940s. The missing women case belongs in the Judge Crater category, another one that will never be solved.
http://www.bethshort.com/dahhome.htm
Trooogrit
01-11-2007, 11:14 PM
I been following this case for about 8-9 months now. A couple things that have caught my attention. The 2 guys working at the concrete company that year. They couldnt get any record of them working? How is this? Were they drifters paid cash money? Did they have a paycheck? Fill out any tax information? Just doesnt seem to me to be the right answer here. Are they saying NO ONE knew there names? SOunds like poor investigating. Should be much more information about them I would think. They followed up on the van, but not these guys? You find some names you can find the vehicle possibly. Whats the word on the street? I mean completely vanishing without a trace is not impossible, but someone knows something and it needs to come out even anonomously. What is gained to cover it up?
Missouri Mule
01-11-2007, 11:18 PM
I been following this case for about 8-9 months now. A couple things that have caught my attention. The 2 guys working at the concrete company that year. They couldnt get any record of them working? How is this? Were they drifters paid cash money? Did they have a paycheck? Fill out any tax information? Just doesnt seem to me to be the right answer here. Are they saying NO ONE knew there names? SOunds like poor investigating. Should be much more information about them I would think. They followed up on the van, but not these guys? You find some names you can find the vehicle possibly. Whats the word on the street? I mean completely vanishing without a trace is not impossible, but someone knows something and it needs to come out even anonomously. What is gained to cover it up?The death penalty, most likely. Missouri executes capital murderers by lethal injection. Anyone involved in this depraved crime would face a high probability of going to a maximum prison and if they lived long enough would be put to death. I can't imagine that any jury would have mercy on these psychopaths for what they have done to the families.
I don't have any information about the "concrete workers." That comes from other sources. I tend to put this in the speculative and unproductive category.
Enrique Sparta
01-12-2007, 12:41 AM
i wonder what information the caller from florida had after the america's most wanted segement. since the police took it very seriously and supposedly this caller gave information that nobody except the kidnappers would know...
BuddyMidwest
01-12-2007, 08:47 AM
Great to see so much activity on this thread since the first of the year. My work schedule has been crazy, but I've finally had time to go back and read everyone's posts.
Here's something to consider. Missouri Mule mentioned that Suzie didn't have a key to the side/rear door, just the front. And discussion was that Sherrill was concerned about controlling access to the house possibly. What if Suzie didn't have the key because she had given it to someone else? Just something I hadn't considered before. Someone outside those two may have had the means to get in without breaking/entering.
The mid-town Springfield quarry is being filled as we speak. I was surprised when I drove by earlier this week - I hadn't noticed the progress until now.
I think Liz had asked earlier about the step the purses were found on. It's my understanding that the entrance to Suzie's bedroom was sunken - so there were a few steps down - and that's where the purses were placed. Could be that's where Suzie normally stacked her purse and backpack - but wouldn't make sense for the mom to do that. At any rate, just adds to the staging theory or proof of staging.
Years ago, I had read on a website, blog - something like that - can't find it now - that a possible connection between the Jackie John's case and this one was that she could connect the abductors to the victims. But I think the timing is wrong for that - I need to check, but I believe JJ was murdered prior to 1992? But that chatter was out there. I also remember discussion about considering the same parties had been behind both - but it struck me as a normal thing to consider at the time - i.e. looking at other crimes that had occurred within a certain time frame.
With regard to the broken globe outside the house - I agree, it happened either unnoticed or in haste - too risky to stay and clean up when you're trying to herd 3 women out of the house and get out. My initial though was it was broken so there would be no light on outside - perhaps before the abductors went to the door to gain entry - however, only the globe was broken, not the bulb.
The two guys from the concrete company has gotten a fair amount of play, too. Seems there was a tip about these 2, supposedly who drove a similar van and worked for a concrete company north of town. Apparently the company sold to another - and they say the records of employment don't exist. I don't really buy that either. Could just be people repeating things they've heard that haven't been checked out. Could be parts of it are true. Could be they were paid in cash. But the fact remains people at that company would have to know them, if they drove a similar van - it was vintage, very old - I don't see how they couldn't find them.
Missouri Mule - I've been pondering the "follow the money" challenge. And thinking about who could have been on another's payroll to hinder progress. When I've been looking into principals in the case, I've always Googled the victims, family, etc., to see if there's any additional information. Could it be that you're thinking someone much higher up the food chain - like a person in charge?
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Great to see so much activity on this thread since the first of the year. My work schedule has been crazy, but I've finally had time to go back and read everyone's posts.
Here's something to consider. Missouri Mule mentioned that Suzie didn't have a key to the side/rear door, just the front. And discussion was that Sherrill was concerned about controlling access to the house possibly. What if Suzie didn't have the key because she had given it to someone else? Just something I hadn't considered before. Someone outside those two may have had the means to get in without breaking/entering.
The mid-town Springfield quarry is being filled as we speak. I was surprised when I drove by earlier this week - I hadn't noticed the progress until now.
I think Liz had asked earlier about the step the purses were found on. It's my understanding that the entrance to Suzie's bedroom was sunken - so there were a few steps down - and that's where the purses were placed. Could be that's where Suzie normally stacked her purse and backpack - but wouldn't make sense for the mom to do that. At any rate, just adds to the staging theory or proof of staging.
Years ago, I had read on a website, blog - something like that - can't find it now - that a possible connection between the Jackie John's case and this one was that she could connect the abductors to the victims. But I think the timing is wrong for that - I need to check, but I believe JJ was murdered prior to 1992? But that chatter was out there. I also remember discussion about considering the same parties had been behind both - but it struck me as a normal thing to consider at the time - i.e. looking at other crimes that had occurred within a certain time frame.
With regard to the broken globe outside the house - I agree, it happened either unnoticed or in haste - too risky to stay and clean up when you're trying to herd 3 women out of the house and get out. My initial though was it was broken so there would be no light on outside - perhaps before the abductors went to the door to gain entry - however, only the globe was broken, not the bulb.
The two guys from the concrete company has gotten a fair amount of play, too. Seems there was a tip about these 2, supposedly who drove a similar van and worked for a concrete company north of town. Apparently the company sold to another - and they say the records of employment don't exist. I don't really buy that either. Could just be people repeating things they've heard that haven't been checked out. Could be parts of it are true. Could be they were paid in cash. But the fact remains people at that company would have to know them, if they drove a similar van - it was vintage, very old - I don't see how they couldn't find them.
Missouri Mule - I've been pondering the "follow the money" challenge. And thinking about who could have been on another's payroll to hinder progress. When I've been looking into principals in the case, I've always Googled the victims, family, etc., to see if there's any additional information. Could it be that you're thinking someone much higher up the food chain - like a person in charge?The Jackie Johns case was back in the late 1980s if I recall correctly. That was a Christian County case whereas the Missing Women case was a Greene County case. The Johns case was aborted when the case was dismissed on a related charge. It is true that all kinds of speculation at the time of the Missing Women case that there was a link as to the same suspect. I'm agnostic.
On the broken globe theory, I agree with you. The fact that the perps wouldn't have allowed Stacy to even put on her shorts and she was taken clad only in her underwear points to the fact that they were in a hurry to get out of Dodge. She could have been carried to the van unconscious and it was just decided to leave the shorts behind on the bed while the home was scrubbed clean of evidence. This also suggests that the girls were there when the perps arrived and that they had either gone to bed or were preparing to go to bed. Suzie and Sherill may have been in the main living area talking to one or more of the perps or just talking among themselves when the perps arrived. Nevertheless, someone managed to gain entry.
On the concrete company employees I really don't know anything on that matter. I think it was one of many other leads that went nowhere. It would seem that the most incompetent of investigations could have accounted for all employees through payroll records. I don't put too much credence there.
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 11:49 AM
i wonder what information the caller from florida had after the america's most wanted segement. since the police took it very seriously and supposedly this caller gave information that nobody except the kidnappers would know...
That's a perfectly valid question. They seemed to believe the person had material knowledge about the crime. But for whatever reasons, the information was never revealed as to its relevance. Of course, the origin of the call is telling in and of itself.
MaryLiz
01-12-2007, 03:31 PM
Unfortunately, after reading everything, I fear MM is right and this case will very likely fall into a "Judge Crater" type case and possibly never be solved. It's just too bad because it would only take one person to, as he said, turn state's evidence to get this resolved. I know Janis McCall and her family have been active in this, with her starting the One Missing Link organization but it's too bad Janis and her family don't band together with Sherrill's sister, Debra Schwartz and maybe some more of Sherrill's family members and DEMAND some answers, especially with the 15th anniversary looming. Whoever is responsible needs to feel the "heat" of this case badly and get very nervous about things and I think only the families and the public in Springfield can make that happen. We can keep discussing it here and keep it heated up but ultimately it's going to take some profoundly angry demands by family members and other people in the Springfield area to get the ball rolling on this again. Very sad....
Buddy Midwest, Welcome Back!
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Unfortunately, after reading everything, I fear MM is right and this case will very likely fall into a "Judge Crater" type case and possibly never be solved. It's just too bad because it would only take one person to, as he said, turn state's evidence to get this resolved. I know Janis McCall and her family have been active in this, with her starting the One Missing Link organization but it's too bad Janis and her family don't band together with Sherrill's sister, Debra Schwartz and maybe some more of Sherrill's family members and DEMAND some answers, especially with the 15th anniversary looming. Whoever is responsible needs to feel the "heat" of this case badly and get very nervous about things and I think only the families and the public in Springfield can make that happen. We can keep discussing it here and keep it heated up but ultimately it's going to take some profoundly angry demands by family members and other people in the Springfield area to get the ball rolling on this again. Very sad....
Buddy Midwest, Welcome Back!I couldn't agree more with your views. What I can't understand is why the good people of Springfield don't demand some answers from the Springfield police department. What makes them so special that they can get by with the occasional utterance of bland, uninformative statements that they are still working the case. How do we know that? Is there an oversight committee to ensure that the case is still being worked? No one knows. The president of the United States is required under our Constitution to report to the United States Congress the "State of the Union" at regular intervals. Yet the police seem to have a blank check to seemingly sit on their hands.
These poor victims didn't receive justice in their lifetimes and they are not receiving justice in their deaths. Springfield's police vehicles are marked "To Protect and Serve." Who are they serving? The public or themselves?
If I were in Springfield I would be among those concerned souls who would march up and down North Boonville Avenue demanding some answers. Every day that justice is delayed is another day that justice has been denied. Somebody out there knows what happened. The police HAVE to know more than they have revealed. Why can't they at least tell us some of the statistics of the case? How many manhours have been expended? How much has it cost? How many suspects have they interviewed and do they have any viable suspects now? Do they have any working theories? Do they even have anyone actually working the case? No one here really knows.
I don't know about the rest of you here but I think it is long past the point of patience. I worked for the public in Springfield for 22 years. I never got by with this lack of results. As I said earlier, what is so special about the Springfield Police Department that they can't produce something after almost 15 years? Where is the accountability? My angry $0.02.
Trooogrit
01-12-2007, 06:18 PM
It has been said that the Concrete company sold and records were lost. Tax records exist for all employees of that company and could be found that way. I dont know if the police looked at that at all but those tax records exist if the company was a legitimate business. Cross referenced to vehicle titles and plates this could yield results.
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 06:38 PM
It has been said that the Concrete company sold and records were lost. Tax records exist for all employees of that company and could be found that way. I dont know if the police looked at that at all but those tax records exist if the company was a legitimate business. Cross referenced to vehicle titles and plates this could yield results.Of course they do. If the police didn't even do that, they didn't do much of anything constructive, did they? The owners could have been hauled before a grand jury and made to testify. If they don't their goose is cooked. Their 5th amendment rights don't apply there. If they lie, they get the Scooter Libby treatment and may be modeling orange jump suits at Leavenworth (or in this case up in Jefferson City) before they get the needle.
Personally, I think this whole concrete company business and those alleged employees is a dry hole.
I would bet my bottom dollar that if an outside, retired investigator would take a complete look at the case, it would be solved within a month or less. Mark Fuhrmann, of O.J. fame, took a look at an old 23 year old murder case on the east coast and solved it quickly enough. The facts will always win out. But if lazy incompetence is the order of the day the case will never be solved. This was turned into a political farce almost from the outset and although it has abated over the years, those early days of lost opportunity can never be recovered. They say there is a golden 48 hours after a crime is committed to get the case solved. At this rate it will be 48 years before we know what happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Skakel
Trooogrit
01-12-2007, 07:28 PM
Of course they do. If the police didn't even do that, they didn't do much of anything constructive, did they? The owners could have been hauled before a grand jury and made to testify. If they don't their goose is cooked. Their 5th amendment rights don't apply there. If they lie, they get the Scooter Libby treatment and may be modeling orange jump suits at Leavenworth (or in this case up in Jefferson City) before they get the needle.
Personally, I think this whole concrete company business and those alleged employees is a dry hole.
I would be my bottom dollar that if an outside, retired investigator would take a complete look at the case, it would be solved within a month or less. Mark Fuhrmann, of O.J. fame, took a look at an old 23 year old murder case on the east coast and solved it quickly enough. The facts will always win out. But if lazy incompetence is the order of the day the case will never be solved. This was turned into a political farce almost from the outset and although it has abated over the years, those early days of lost opportunity can never be recovered. They say there is a golden 48 hours after a crime is committed to get the case solved. At this rate it will be 48 years before we know what happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Skakel You speak several times of having inside information you cant elaborate on. Is this case as solvable as you say? Is this really a coverup from within? Who gains? Who is being protected? Probably not answers you can give. Can an independent get the information he needs to solve the case? I am sure someone would take this case on just for the exposure.
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 08:42 PM
You speak several times of having inside information you cant elaborate on. Is this case as solvable as you say? Is this really a coverup from within? Who gains? Who is being protected? Probably not answers you can give. Can an independent get the information he needs to solve the case? I am sure someone would take this case on just for the exposure.What exactly are you referring to? I do have information that the general public does not have. I've already spoken to the matter of the van I spotted in late 1992 but was apparently ignored and I was threatened with my job. (The current police leadership knows of this.) And there is other information that I know from personal knowledge and which has been shared with the police department. Is that a "cover-up" or just incompetent arrogance?
I have no idea if someone is being "protected." Certainly it is not unheard of that there is something called police corruption. Was it evident here? You tell me.
Who gains? If we rule out randomness and we rule out drugs (which I have done), and we rule out a serial murderer (as I have done) and we rule out a disorganized crime which this most assuredly was not, what are we left with? I do not have the data which would show the motives in crimes although I am sure it is somewhere on the internet. Certainly money is near the top of the list of all criminal motives. Here, I just found something. Look at what is at the top of the list.
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/111/111lect02.htm
It seems to me the crime was obviously planned. We may also make the assumption that the girls were not expected back home that evening and showed up at or about the time the home was entered by the perpetrator or perpetrators.
Who could have carried out such a crime in such meticulous detail that no physical evidence was left behind? Would a run-of-the-mill common criminal be able to do this and subdue the women successfully? Not likely.
What are we left with? Connect the dots for a motive. And then who might benefit from such a crime?
If we can believe the police, the most obvious suspects were ruled out by polygraph. Yet we know that polygraphs are neither bulletproof nor admissable in court. We have almost no clues to speak of. We have three grown women who were subdued and taken from the residence. One lone male abductor is highly unlikely to have committed such a crime with the evident perfection that this one entailed. That suggests that two or more individuals were involved; possibly three or even four. What was in it for them? Were they just along for the ride? A Manson type spree killing? In that case, the mutilated bodies were left behind. In this case there are no bodies and virtually no evidence other than the certainty that Stacy left in her underwear as her shorts were left on the bed and she could not wear Suzie's clothes. The vehicles were moved. That suggests multiple suspects. The light fixture was broken outside suggesting a possible struggle or eliminating the light source that would come shortly as it was nearing early daylight. A van was sighted with a young woman resembling Suzie was spotted and her being threatened. Could one person have done all of that? Possibly, but unlikely unless the other two were in the back of the van, either killed already or bound and gagged. And we don't even know for a certainty that a van was just used since the witnesses were unreliable, scared, or incredibly careless in reporting the sightings. One might say it was a "perfect storm."
That's why I have said that the only way this case will be solved is if this case is taken from the Springfield Police Department and given over to an outside investigator or investigators to have "fresh eyes" look at the evidence. Otherwise, the case will never be solved unless at least one of the perpetrators finally grows a conscience. Ultimately they will receive their eternal "reward" in hell but it doesn't solve the crime here in this life. Meanwhile the living are enduring their own hell on earth. And that is unforgivable.
I would bet my bottom dollar that if an outside, retired investigator would take a complete look at the case, it would be solved within a month or less.
Richard, he would have to persuade someone to turn States Evidence and he would have to persuade LE to act on the information in a timely manner. 30 days is stretching it a bit. 300 days would be more appropriate.
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 09:57 PM
Richard, he would have to persuade someone to turn States Evidence and he would have to persuade LE to act on the information in a timely manner. 30 days is stretching it a bit. 300 days would be more appropriate.
Really? I would say 30 minutes would be more like it. I'll bet he could pick up the phone and get it done if he was good at his job. I would give my right arm to see this case file. I didn't work as a police investigator but this case looks like a slam dunk to me. The time for waiting is long overdue -- some 14 years to be exact. All he needs is a taped or signed confession from just one of them and this case is effectively solved. That doesn't include conviction and execution but I think that would proceed smoothly from there.
Who's "LE?"
Who's "LE?"
LE = law enforcement.
Missouri Mule
01-12-2007, 10:05 PM
LE = law enforcement.
Why would it take 300 days? They've had their chance. That's why I said this needs to be turned over to a competent investigator.
I don't want to toot my horn but I once had a case that was messed over for seven years and it landed on my desk. I solved that case in about 60 days and locked horns with one of Springfield's most well known attorneys in the process. I soon ran him off the case and got my pound of flesh and a big payday for the proper individuals. It can be done but foot dragging as has been done will never solve this case.
All he needs is a taped or signed confession from just one of them and this case is effectively solved.
Robert Cox stated on camera in his 1996 prison interview that it would be stupid for someone to do that. IF the retired investigator were to find the remains first; then he may be able to twist some arms to get a confession. Without remains, nobody is going to talk.
Trooogrit
01-12-2007, 10:47 PM
I am in Nebraska and recently a body was found that was sunken in a barrel. This particular woman was killed by her ex husband back about 23 years. After finding the remains a lot of people started recalling conversations in which this ex husband had made threats to others about this. They came forward and the DNA established it was his missing ex wife. I guess what I am saying is it jogged there memories. Turns out the guy was potentially a serial killer of prostitutes in the area. This is hard to establish because he committed suicide when he knew he was caught. You may be very correct in thinking that the bodies being found would open up the potential for a confessor.
Missouri Mule
01-13-2007, 12:14 AM
Robert Cox stated on camera in his 1996 prison interview that it would be stupid for someone to do that. IF the retired investigator were to find the remains first; then he may be able to twist some arms to get a confession. Without remains, nobody is going to talk.
I don't want to make this symplistic but it works like this. An investigation begins with the assumption that everyone is a suspect and it boils down to a process of elimination. Once the list of suspects is determined then it continues to be whittled down still further until the most likely ones are ascertained. The number will be quite small. And they had to have the motive, the means, and the opportunity. Who meets that criteria?
At some point in the investigation the suspects will be put on notice that they are not off the hook or they will realize it themselves. And then the focus will remain on them as long as it takes. I see nothing wrong with the PD simply telling the public that they have a suspect(s) but they can't convict on the available evidence. In recent years, they have used the term "person of interest" to define such a person. It's the ultimate way of applying pressure and alerting the public to provide leads.
"Many law enforcement officials now use the vague term “person of interest” to describe people caught up in their investigations. That poses a challenge for journalists, who must try to convey a situation accurately without unfairly tarring someone’s reputation."
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:-JOi0KZgke8J:www.ajr.org/Article.asp%3Fid%3D4042+person+of+interest&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3
At this point in time we don't even know if the police department even has a "person of interest" in mind, much less actual suspects.
[/url][url="http://209.85.165.104/article_printable.asp?id=4042"] (http://209.85.165.104/archive.asp?issue=77)
I don't want to make this symplistic but it works like this. An investigation begins with the assumption that everyone is a suspect and it boils down to a process of elimination.
Symplistic? (sic).
Without remains, nobody will talk...it's quite simple.
Missouri Mule
01-13-2007, 12:41 AM
Symplistic? (sic).
Without remains, nobody will talk...it's quite simple.
Contrary to popular thought, it is not necessary to have a body to prove capital murder. We may safely assume that the women are deceased and were murdered. If the evidence, circumstantial though it may be, it is still possible to convict and execute these criminals.
It is true that failure to find the bodies is an obstacle, it is not an insurmountable obstacle. But this is not the point of my posts. The point was that the case has fallen into a black hole. And this only encourages the perps to believe they have escaped prosecution. The police do no favors by failing to keep the public informed and the perps on their guard. Every day the perps should go to bed with the full knowledge that they have murdered three women and that the police are looking over their shoulder. Not a day should go by that they aren't thinking this is the day that they get caught. It is said that "out of mind; out of sight." This is where the case is now.
Contrary to popular thought, it is not necessary to have a body to prove capital murder. We may safely assume that the women are deceased and were murdered. Yes, it's possible to prove capital murder without a body. However, regarding this case; I will have to use your catch phrase: "I'm not holding my breath". Additionally, Stacy McCall has never been legally declared dead by her family. They want to be "shown" some results.
Missouri Mule
01-15-2007, 10:51 AM
Yes, it's possible to prove capital murder without a body. However, regarding this case; I will have to use your catch phrase: "I'm not holding my breath". Additionally, Stacy McCall has never been legally declared dead by her family. They want to be "shown" some results.
That's certainly true, although I have wondered for a long time if the unwillingness to accept reality has stymied efforts to solve the crime. I can't say how I might feel if I were in the McCall's shoes, however. I know of no case where any adults have been gone for this period of time and have resurfaced alive. We heard of the rumors that they were somehow spirited out of the country and are held in bondage, etc., but I think the odds of that being true are somewhere between zero and none. If Stacy McCall, Suzie Streeter and Sherill Levitt were here to speak for themselves I'm sure they would simply say that they wanted justice done and that entails finding the guilty and justice enacted.
At some point the living have to get on with their lives. But the crime must be solved and the perpetrators held to account. And we, the ones on the outside, want to believe that our justice system is capable of offering the degree of security and stability that a civilized society should afford its citizens. We've not seen that as evidenced by this unsolved case which is why I believe it must be put in the hands of an unbiased investigator or investigators who have no ax to grind. There was speculation from some that the investigation was botched and/or there was possible police corruption. What is the truth? Isn't that the minimum we should expect?
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 01:47 PM
I really hate to see this thread just die out like this. There is some new information that has come to light recently that is not in the public domain. It has to do with the America Most Wanted caller.
Just a fyi: There was a fictional short story written in 1998 about this case. Most of it is true but some new angles that haven't been covered previously are also in the short story. If anyone is interested this is the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/spence-missing.html
Just a fyi: There was a fictional short story written in 1998 about this case. Most of it is true but some new angles that haven't been covered previously are also in the short story. If anyone is interested this is the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/spence-missing.htmlI read chapter one of this piece of crap written by June Spence. This is a book that should never have been written. Ironically, it was written in 1998, the same year I experienced my vision with Stacy McCall. The italics come from the book. My comments follow...
"Adelle (Stacy McCall), the consummate perfectionist, was failing precalculus."
I know for a fact that Stacy was a numbers freak. She loved numbers. It's not likely that she would be failing any math class.
"She carried herself as if maybe she thought she was a little better than everyone else. We detect the trace of a smugly superior smirk in her wedding dress video."
Huh? This isn't the Stacy McCall that transformed my life 8 years ago. This isn't the Stacy that I know.
"Adelle's ( Stacy's ) parents will reemerge woefully from time to time, but in retrospect we will see that it was here the story's last traces turned to ash."
Again I must say this...huh? Eight years ago, Stacy told me where to look to find her. Even though there has been a delay due to Springfield's ice storm; we will know something soon. I know this sounds cliche; but I have waited my whole life for this. I want to know what it's like when the whole thing works.
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 04:19 PM
I read chapter one of this piece of crap written by June Spence. This is a book that should never have been written. Ironically, it was written in 1998, the same year I experienced my vision with Stacy McCall. The italics come from the book. My comments follow...
"Adelle (Stacy McCall), the consummate perfectionist, was failing precalculus."
I know for a fact that Stacy was a numbers freak. She loved numbers. It's not likely that she would be failing any math class.
"She carried herself as if maybe she thought she was a little better than everyone else. We detect the trace of a smugly superior smirk in her wedding dress video."
Huh? This isn't the Stacy McCall that transformed my life 8 years ago. This isn't the Stacy that I know.
"Adelle's ( Stacy's ) parents will reemerge woefully from time to time, but in retrospect we will see that it was here the story's last traces turned to ash."
Again I must say this...huh? Eight years ago, Stacy told me where to look to find her. Even though there has been a delay due to Springfield's ice storm; we will know something soon. I know this sounds cliche; but I have waited my whole life for this. I want to know what it's like when the whole thing works.
So you have visions of Stacy and that carries more weight than this author who after all wrote a work of fiction based on real events? Why do you know something that she does not? I know you are sincere in your beliefs, but the truth of the matter is there is vast disagreement on the police department and others familiar with this case; people that have actual knowledge and facts at their disposal.
I want to believe you are right. But I fear your optimism is misplaced. I base my views on known facts and not visions. In the history of mankind not a single person has ever come back from the "other side" to communicate with the living.
Getting back to the subject at hand, there are actual facts that have come to light that have a bearing on this case. I made reference to the "America Most Wanted" series and who might have placed the call from Florida with "vital information." We now know that it was not the brother of the young woman who Cox almost certainly murdered in Florida (later freed by the Florida Supreme Court from death row). We know that because he has told us that. And we can almost surely rule out Cox because he wasn't in Florida at the time based on his employment history. Who else may have been in Florida at that airing? I would like to know why the police haven't determined the whereabouts of the "six suspects" that are believed to be tied to the homicides at the time that AMW aired in December, 1992. Wouldn't you?
I would like to know why the police haven't determined the whereabouts of the "six suspects" that are believed to be tied to the homicides at the time that AMW aired in December, 1992. Wouldn't you?
Richard, in an earlier post you wrote: "At this point in time we don't even know if the police department even has a "person of interest" in mind, much less actual suspects." This seems to conflict with what you just wrote.
In the history of mankind not a single person has ever come back from the "other side" to communicate with the living.
The Bible states that Jesus came back and ate a honeycomb and a broiled fish. Luke 24:41-43.
So you have visions of Stacy and that carries more weight than this author who after all wrote a work of fiction based on real events? Why do you know something that she does not?
Yes and Yes.
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 05:19 PM
Richard, in an earlier post you wrote: "At this point in time we don't even know if the police department even has a "person of interest" in mind, much less actual suspects." This seems to conflict with what you just wrote.The distinction would lie in that a "person of interest" would be considered the one most likely to have commited the crime. If I were named as a "person of interest" I would be most concerned rather than a run of the mill suspect. As a matter of fact, when a crime is first committed, every person on the planet is a "suspect." It is just a matter of a process of elimination until the most likely individuals are determined. A significant percentage of murders are as you know commited by family members, they would be first on the list to eliminate. If their answers don't compute no competent investigator would eliminate them, such as evidenced in the Jon Benet Ramsey case.
For example, I would be a suspect at the time of the crime. However, I have an airtight alibi in that I was 1,800 miles away in Montana at the time. Cox, on the other hand was a native of Springfield, worked in the area of the crime at or about the time of the crime, had a criminal history, and was capable of carrying out the crime (being a former Army Ranger) and refuses to deny he didn't do it. He can not be eliminated until he can produce evidence he couldn't have done it. One of the great mysteries is why he won't even deny the crime. Ostensibly it is to keep out of the general population. Is it because of a generalized fear from the rest of the inmates or because he knows there is a contract on his life and he would have a shive stuck in his back in the laundry room? Some of the other suspects are less likely for various reasons and then there are those who the police have no clue because the investigation was so botched.
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 05:21 PM
The Bible states that Jesus came back and ate a honeycomb and a broiled fish. Luke 24:41-43.
That's legend and there is no tangible evidence that ever happened. Many people do not accept this as truth.
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 05:23 PM
Yes and Yes.
Please elaborate.
That's legend and there is no tangible evidence that ever happened. Many people do not accept this as truth.
It's probably the same people who accept what Sylvia Browne says as the Gospel. She has a huge following and they accept what she says without any tangible proof.
Missouri Mule
01-20-2007, 05:46 PM
It's probably the same people who accept what Sylvia Browne says as the Gospel. She has a huge following and they accept what she says without any tangible proof.
I'm sorry to say I never heard of her. Religion is based on faith. I don't live my life on faith. With me it is "show me the evidence" or as the late great Jack Webb's character "Joe Friday" would say, "All we want are the facts, ma'am"
miles_draken
01-22-2007, 11:29 AM
It seems to me this case of three once living human beings is being turned into more of a fairy-tale than anything. This case will be solved on facts or a someone coming to police with knowledge of the crime. I don't believe a vision or any other act of psychic phenomenon will catch those responsible. It makes for an interesting read, but it's science fiction, not science. Sylvia Browne is interesting to watch on Montel occasionally, but you can't prove or disprove anything she says, which is what a really good psychic is all about. If these women are buried in that parking lot, I will never believe that a vision or dream brought about their discovery. Some sort of tangible evidence or hypothesis is behind it if they are found there. These visions are kinda like the Bible in that they are open to many different interpretations and anyone can just slide their own beliefs or wishes into them and make them fit. Facts and witnesses are what solve crimes like these, not voodoo or rain dances.
Missouri Mule
01-22-2007, 11:44 AM
It seems to me this case of three once living human beings is being turned into more of a fairy-tale than anything. This case will be solved on facts or a someone coming to police with knowledge of the crime. I don't believe a vision or any other act of psychic phenomenon will catch those responsible. It makes for an interesting read, but it's science fiction, not science. Sylvia Browne is interesting to watch on Montel occasionally, but you can't prove or disprove anything she says, which is what a really good psychic is all about. If these women are buried in that parking lot, I will never believe that a vision or dream brought about their discovery. Some sort of tangible evidence or hypothesis is behind it if they are found there. These visions are kinda like the Bible in that they are open to many different interpretations and anyone can just slide their own beliefs or wishes into them and make them fit. Facts and witnesses are what solve crimes like these, not voodoo or rain dances.
That's true enough but it hasn't entirely turned on psychic vision. There is some small thread of hope that the motive for the crime is being given serious credence. That, in my view, is where this investigation went south, and where the investigation can once again take on a postive turn to a solution. Crimes, like any other human endeavor, turn on the reasons that people do the things they do; even criminals and cold blooded murderers.
Enrique Sparta
01-24-2007, 12:51 AM
Anyone else find it HILARIOUS that Ken is calling another's written work a piece of crap? Um Ken since you're so psychic why don't you tell us where the bodies are? Why don't you use your pyscho magic tools that can see through concrete and show dead bodies in some parking lot?
freaking kook
Enrique Sparta
01-24-2007, 12:56 AM
Mule,
I'm very interested in who this Florida tipster was. Also wish we knew what was told to authorities since they believed him to be so credible.
wasn't Sherrill's son living in Florida at the time? i don't know enough about him and his relationship with the family though.
can you mention any of the new info re: the Florida caller following the AMW episode?
MaryLiz
01-24-2007, 10:10 AM
It seems to me this case of three once living human beings is being turned into more of a fairy-tale than anything. This case will be solved on facts or a someone coming to police with knowledge of the crime. I don't believe a vision or any other act of psychic phenomenon will catch those responsible. It makes for an interesting read, but it's science fiction, not science. Sylvia Browne is interesting to watch on Montel occasionally, but you can't prove or disprove anything she says, which is what a really good psychic is all about. If these women are buried in that parking lot, I will never believe that a vision or dream brought about their discovery. Some sort of tangible evidence or hypothesis is behind it if they are found there. These visions are kinda like the Bible in that they are open to many different interpretations and anyone can just slide their own beliefs or wishes into them and make them fit. Facts and witnesses are what solve crimes like these, not voodoo or rain dances.
I agree. Plus, as we have said before on here, it seems like the only way this will be solved is if a cold case squad from the outside comes in and takes a fresh, new look at this case from the very beginning. I don't know if the Springfield PD would allow that though as I think they have to be the ones requesting someone from the outside to do so.
I too keep going back to that caller from Florida to AMW, who Enrique asked about above. That and the fact that there could have been a coverup in this case.
There should be a brand new documentary done on this (apart from the AMW and 48 hours pieces)...especially since it will be 15 years in June with no resolution in sight. At least there would be someone poking around and asking questions again.
There is an age progression photo update on Stacy McCall's info on Charley Project today.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mccall_stacy.html
Missouri Mule
01-24-2007, 11:33 AM
Mule,
I'm very interested in who this Florida tipster was. Also wish we knew what was told to authorities since they believed him to be so credible.
wasn't Sherrill's son living in Florida at the time? i don't know enough about him and his relationship with the family though.
can you mention any of the new info re: the Florida caller following the AMW episode?That's a question that has nagged at me for 14 years now. All we have ever been told is that he had "vital information", was cut off and could never reestablish contact.
I don't know whether or not the son was in Florida at the time. That's what I wondered at the time to the present day. However Cox, who has been named as a suspect, was NOT in Florida during that time. He was in Springfield and was still working for the employer who was marking those utility lines. He is, of course, now cooling his heels at Lovelady, Texas for another unrelated crime and is more likely than not to die in prison of old age. His first possible parole date is in 2025 but is likely to be denied. He will get getting up close to 70 by then. He has always played games with the police and has written numerous letters to virtually everyone; some of which appear in the Springfield News-Leader. (You can read them there.) I've read them several times but am agnostic on his involvement. He claims to know something but won't admit involvement; nor (get this) won't claim non-involvement. He doesn't want to be put into the general population but is in 23 hour solitary confinement. It is possible he is afraid of a shive in his back in the prison laundry room if he is released from solitary. Who knows what his involvement is? He may have a contract out on his life by someone higher up in the food chain.
Her son?? What is there to say? He felt moved to post twice at one other website and was at the time counting the days and even hours since they were taken. This was posted back in June, 2006. I think he may have been in Florida but wouldn't swear to it. I just don't know.
The latest scuttlebutt is that the case has been given to some new eyes to review and that there may be an arrest warrant out for a possible suspect in the case. I don't know whether it is in connection with this case, however. I have no way to independently confirm it however.
There may be something going to break on the case but I'm from Missouri. So I will need to be "shown."
Missouri Mule
01-24-2007, 11:41 AM
I agree. Plus, as we have said before on here, it seems like the only way this will be solved is if a cold case squad from the outside comes in and takes a fresh, new look at this case from the very beginning. I don't know if the Springfield PD would allow that though as I think they have to be the ones requesting someone from the outside to do so.
I too keep going back to that caller from Florida to AMW, who Enrique asked about above. That and the fact that there could have been a coverup in this case.
There should be a brand new documentary done on this (apart from the AMW and 48 hours pieces)...especially since it will be 15 years in June with no resolution in sight. At least there would be someone poking around and asking questions again.
There is an age progression photo update on Stacy McCall's info on Charley Project today.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mccall_stacy.htmlThanks for the update on the Charley Project. I hadn't seen that photo yet although I check it for updates from time to time. If it were only true. We will likely never know what she would have become and it was so happenstance that she was even there.
If I might make a suggestion it would be that anyone who wants to move this case along would be to sit down and write a handwritten letter to the chief of police there and ask that something be done. I've not done that although I have been in touch with the current officer handing the case and his supervisor. It is impossible to know what they are actually doing. But if new people were to go to the very top, it might do some good. I'd send the letter marked "Personal and Confidential." That should get his attention. He came in after the case had matured and would have no ax to grind. The previous police chief had an FBI background and micromanged the case to the detriment of the experienced detectives who were hamstrung from day one. Plus the crime scene was horribly contaminated by individuals who trapsed through the home before the police sealed it off. It was a "perfect storm" of circumstances and police incompetence.
I do also agree with you that police corruption cannot be ruled out. I won't go into detail here on this forum but I have reason to believe that may very well be true, based on my own personal knowledge of certain facts. Recently I felt compelled to spell this out in exacting detail to the current investigator and his supervisor. Whether anything comes of this is known only to God.
Missouri Mule
01-28-2007, 01:20 PM
This thread seems to have died out once again. However, if anyone is interested in a lively discussion on this matter elsewhere, send me a PM and I'll link you elsewhere to two websites that are very active on this case. I have just yesterday ran across a piece of information that I found most interesting and may (and I emphasize may) prove to be a major break in the case. In any even you can decide for yourself.
Trooogrit
02-05-2007, 10:23 PM
I hate when these threads die out, only a few websites actually active on this one. This case is one of the most interesting that I follow. Seems like there are a lot of people in that area keeping things hush about it. I would hope that local people from the area would be following this on a regular basis.
MaryLiz
02-06-2007, 08:36 AM
I don't like seeing them die out either. Even though there is really nothing new, it's still nice to discuss possible motives, etc. My main problem is time but I try to still follow this case (and others) when I can.
Missouri Mule - I don't have a lot of time to post but when I get a moment of spare time I have been reading the ongoing discussion at one of the crime blogs and also the guestbook at airalex. I went to the Greene County Circuit Court page and saw what was referred to in a couple posts in the guestbook. Do you think the person listed in Suzanne's charge from 1991 could possibly be involved? He has several charges under his own name on there. That's something I have been thinking about a lot after reading that.
Missouri Mule
02-06-2007, 11:34 AM
I don't like seeing them die out either. Even though there is really nothing new, it's still nice to discuss possible motives, etc. My main problem is time but I try to still follow this case (and others) when I can.
Missouri Mule - I don't have a lot of time to post but when I get a moment of spare time I have been reading the ongoing discussion at one of the crime blogs and also the guestbook at airalex. I went to the Greene County Circuit Court page and saw what was referred to in a couple posts in the guestbook. Do you think the person listed in Suzanne's charge from 1991 could possibly be involved? He has several charges under his own name on there. That's something I have been thinking about a lot after reading that.Actually no. I'm thinking of other individuals and I know that two of the officers involved in the investigation share my views. The reason I don't believe he is involved was that was just an ex parte order of protection that is quite common. Evidently Suzie had it dismissed which is also common. I used to see these all the time in my past working life. I certainly don't believe that would be a sufficient motive to murder three women. In fact, I don't see any motive unless he was trying to get back with her and she was rebuffing her. There was another more immediate motive looming. This is where the "48 hour" piece will help to flesh out the investigation. The abduction likely took place between 2:30 AM or later and was completed by 4:01AM. That would explain the large amount of money left behind and contrary to popular thought, the crime scene was horribly contaminated. I had previously viewed this as a highly organized crime. It was organized but not as well planned as I had previously thought. Otherwise the large amount of money of over $800 would not have been left behind.
The van almost certainly involved was the Dodge A-108 model that had a full 10 foot cargo area. This was the early generation of Dodge vans but surprisingly is still extremely popular and fetching some rather zoomy prices. This is what they look like. It would have been quite similar to this one I found on the internet. (This is not it, btw) It is believed by some that the van in question was a work truck with no rear windows as shown in these photos.
http://www.adclassix.com/ads/67dodgecargovan.htm
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006a.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006c.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006d.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006e.jpg
MaryLiz
02-07-2007, 08:07 PM
Actually no. I'm thinking of other individuals and I know that two of the officers involved in the investigation share my views. The reason I don't believe he is involved was that was just an ex parte order of protection that is quite common. Evidently Suzie had it dismissed which is also common. I used to see these all the time in my past working life. I certainly don't believe that would be a sufficient motive to murder three women. In fact, I don't see any motive unless he was trying to get back with her and she was rebuffing her. There was another more immediate motive looming. This is where the "48 hour" piece will help to flesh out the investigation. The abduction likely took place between 2:30 AM or later and was completed by 4:01AM. That would explain the large amount of money left behind and contrary to popular thought, the crime scene was horribly contaminated. I had previously viewed this as a highly organized crime. It was organized but not as well planned as I had previously thought. Otherwise the large amount of money of over $800 would not have been left behind.
The van almost certainly involved was the Dodge A-108 model that had a full 10 foot cargo area. This was the early generation of Dodge vans but surprisingly is still extremely popular and fetching some rather zoomy prices. This is what they look like. It would have been quite similar to this one I found on the internet. (This is not it, btw) It is believed by some that the van in question was a work truck with no rear windows as shown in these photos.
http://www.adclassix.com/ads/67dodgecargovan.htm
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006a.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006c.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006d.jpg
http://www.westol.com/~blcars/images/sale3006e.jpg
I see your point and I agree...it wouldn't exactly be a motive for kidnapping and killing all 3 women. I have one other individual in mind, who I have thought about since the beginning. I also wondered about the guy Sherrill supposedly dated who worked for a cement company. I don't know if that person was ever a real suspect or if that was just a theory that has since been dismissed.
Missouri Mule
02-07-2007, 08:53 PM
I see your point and I agree...it wouldn't exactly be a motive for kidnapping and killing all 3 women. I have one other individual in mind, who I have thought about since the beginning. I also wondered about the guy Sherrill supposedly dated who worked for a cement company. I don't know if that person was ever a real suspect or if that was just a theory that has since been dismissed.
I'm not real sure who you are referring to although I can guess. Certainly he can't be ruled out. On the cement company and who Sherrill may have dated, I really don't know about that. I tend to be doubtful and I see no real motive.
On the motive for killing all three women, that is easily explained. First of all, we can safely assume that Stacy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's #1. On Sherrill or Suzie, as you undoubtedly know, mothers and daughters are very, very close. Unlike sons and fathers of which I was one, we were never that close and I suspect that's about par for the course. The truth is that men don't really have friends like women have friends. That's probably one of the reasons men don't live as long as women. We don't have the support groups that women do. We tend to turn our grief inward and most men, especially older men, don't live that long afterwards if they are widowed when their wives predecease them. That's a bit off the mark but I wanted to make the point that Suzie and Sherrill knew what the other knew. Regardless of which one was intended to be taken, the other one had to go as well because the other would have fingered the perpetrators. Which goes to the late hour of the night.
If Sherrill was the intended target, there was plenty of time to have snatched her and certainly before 2:30 AM. Whatever so-called ruse could have been used to gain entry, simply overpowered Sherrill and thrown her into the van or the trunk of a car and taken away to be done away with. But then Suzie would have been left behind to point the finger at the perpetrators. So she had to go as well, had Sherrill been the target. However, there is no evidence of any kind that I am aware that would suggest she was in any difficulty. In fact, one of my co-workers had her hair done by Sherrill just two days before they were grabbed and it was just light banter as they discussed the upcoming graduation of their respective daughters. As to all of the various rumors floating around, I don't put much stock in that. That's #2.
That leaves Suzie. Now it's no secret that she had kept some bad company. She had an ex parte order against a former boyfriend but she dropped that herself. These are quite common and equally common that they are dropped as they patch things up. Hardly a reason to murder someone. But Suzie had something looming in her near future. She was going to be a witness in an upcoming trial; a felony trial. I won't go further than that but would invite you to read the Greene County website and look up Suzie's name on the index of cases and see for yourself on the docket sheet. Does this provide the necessary motive to murder three women? I can't say but we know all too well people have been murdered for far less.
What none of us know is what went on within the Springfield Police Department. A lot of people there had different theories even to the present day including one former high ranking official who said "extra terresterials" took them. If you think that is the mark of incompetence, you'd be right.
But two investigators fingered certain people and I believe they knew what they were talking about. One is no longer with the department and the other still is.
As to the van which was the primary focus of the investigation, I am now reasonably convinced it is the key to the solving of this crime. It was, to the best of my knowledge a Dodge A-108 longbed work truck without rear windows. I believe that van was seen at another location and the police have yet to (to my knowledge) investigate that sighting. That sighting also, is in my opinion, the key to the solution to the location of the remains of the women. Will the police act on that information? You tell me. Thus far they haven't.
One final thing: I believe the abduction took place between 2:30 AM and 4:01 AM. That would be the earliest twilight period and the abductors had to be out of "Dodge" before that van could be seen clearly be emerging daylight. That would go to the matter of leaving the large sum of money behind in Sherill's purse; some $800. They wanted the women and they wanted to be gone ASAP.
Missouri Mule
02-08-2007, 11:59 PM
QUOTE
{I couldn't agree with you more that a fresh look by retired detectives who would be given unrestricted access to the files would be a very good idea. This was the single most expensive operation in Springfield history and to hear them tell it they don't have a single clue of who did it or why it was done. I don't believe that for one second nor do I believe it was a random act. }
There is one organization mentioned on a couple other posts on here that I have also seen on TV shows about unsolved cases called the Vidocq Society. They're out of Philadelphia I believe and they take on unsolved disappearances and crimes that usually everyone else gives up on. This case sounds tailor-made for them. I don't know if just anyone can contact them about the case or if LE has to make initial contact and submit the files. Of course, if the Springfield PD wants the lid kept on this case, they may not share any information with an outside group, even one with a good reputation like Vidocq. Here is a link for them.
www.vidocq.org (http://www.vidocq.org)
I'm curious. Did you ever contact this organization about this case? I read the information and if they are actually what they say, this case would indeed be perfect for them to analyze. I would be happy to pass this along to the SPD but they are so thick headed they wouldn't listen to me. There is a credible witness that has come forth and they won't even return the phone call or contact via e-mail although they have both at their disposal. If anyone wants to tackle that problem that would be great. Once they get their back up, the actual muderers could walk in the door and they'd get the bum's rush in my opinion. I've never seen anything like it. Maybe it's a "police thing." They know best and the rest of us are idiots because we don't wear the uniform. Very frustrating.
kim playfair
02-09-2007, 07:22 AM
Do you think this actually fits this scenario? They are known for solving quite a few crimes and are a very distinguished bunch of people.
Here's the prereq's tho:
Case Intake
A Vidocq Society investigation can begin only after we are contacted by a family member or law enforcement agency asking us to review an unsolved cold case. A family member making a request must have standing in the case. In all cases the investigating law enforcement agency must welcome our help.
For The Vidocq Society to consider an unsolved death or homicide case, our by-laws require that:
the death must have occurred at least two years prior;
the victim cannot have been engaged in dangerous or illicit activity of any kind;
if presented to a meeting by law enforcement or an investigator with standing in the matter no family members may be present; and
We will not provide updates or other information to the family.
If a case were adopted by the Society we would not submit progress or other reports to the family. Any information release would be determined by law enforcement and disseminated by them.
MaryLiz
02-09-2007, 09:04 AM
I'm curious. Did you ever contact this organization about this case? I read the information and if they are actually what they say, this case would indeed be perfect for them to analyze. I would be happy to pass this along to the SPD but they are so thick headed they wouldn't listen to me. There is a credible witness that has come forth and they won't even return the phone call or contact via e-mail although they have both at their disposal. If anyone wants to tackle that problem that would be great. Once they get their back up, the actual muderers could walk in the door and they'd get the bum's rush in my opinion. I've never seen anything like it. Maybe it's a "police thing." They know best and the rest of us are idiots because we don't wear the uniform. Very frustrating.
MM - No I didn't but as Kim posted after you, they must be contacted by a family member. They also have other criteria for submitting a case which is listed in her post also. This case is perfect for them. I wish circumstances were such that they could take it. There is someone else I was thinking of contacting, and I will either post or PM you about that hopefully tonight and let you know who.
MaryLiz
02-09-2007, 10:32 AM
After re-reading the criteria from Vidocq it sounds like the McCall family could possibly present the case to them. I don't know if they know about Vidocq or not. Sherrill Levitt's sister Debbie could also maybe contact them. Janis McCall could be contacted about the possibility of this maybe through her One Missing Link organization she set up after Stacy went missing. I'll have to look at the website later when I get off work and see about contact information.
Missouri Mule
02-09-2007, 11:44 AM
After re-reading the criteria from Vidocq it sounds like the McCall family could possibly present the case to them. I don't know if they know about Vidocq or not. Sherrill Levitt's sister Debbie could also maybe contact them. Janis McCall could be contacted about the possibility of this maybe through her One Missing Link organization she set up after Stacy went missing. I'll have to look at the website later when I get off work and see about contact information.I think that's a very good idea. I would suggest that you somehow get this information directly to the parents. (Perhaps someone knows them and could do this.) That touches on another aspect of this case I find troubling. Offhand, I think the best way to go about this might be to simply copy the page and mail it to her with a short note that she might want to explore the case with them. Alternatively, you could also do the same with Sherrill's sister.
Offhand, I think the Springfield P.D. is hopeless. This is by most reckoning was one of the most botched investigations in their history. Their procedures have substantially improved at the current time but I think they have such a bad taste they think it is radioactive so a new uninvolved group needs to look at the case. It is time to do this because frankly time is running out for people who could be witnesses that could bring a conviction of the perpetrators. Perhaps the best we might hope for is that the remains be found so the families have some small peace at last.
Missouri Mule
02-09-2007, 11:53 AM
Do you think this actually fits this scenario? They are known for solving quite a few crimes and are a very distinguished bunch of people.
Here's the prereq's tho:
Case Intake
A Vidocq Society investigation can begin only after we are contacted by a family member or law enforcement agency asking us to review an unsolved cold case. A family member making a request must have standing in the case. In all cases the investigating law enforcement agency must welcome our help.
For The Vidocq Society to consider an unsolved death or homicide case, our by-laws require that:
the death must have occurred at least two years prior;
the victim cannot have been engaged in dangerous or illicit activity of any kind;
if presented to a meeting by law enforcement or an investigator with standing in the matter no family members may be present; and
We will not provide updates or other information to the family.
If a case were adopted by the Society we would not submit progress or other reports to the family. Any information release would be determined by law enforcement and disseminated by them.
Since I can't or don't know if the victims meet these criteria I would suggest that this information goes directly to the Greene County Prosecutor. He could go to the Chief of Police and the families. I have it on good information that he is sincerely committed to the solving of the case. It is entirely possible that he is unaware of this group. This could be mailed or faxed to him at his Greene County office. This is his name, address, phone and fax number.
http://www.greenecountymo.org/web/officials.php
OFFICE OF THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
GREENE COUNTY, MISSOURI
Darrell L. Moore
Prosecuting Attorney
1010 Boonville Avenue
Springfield, MO 65802-3804
(417) 868-4061 phone
(417) 868-4160 fax
MaryLiz
02-09-2007, 08:00 PM
I think that's a very good idea. I would suggest that you somehow get this information directly to the parents. (Perhaps someone knows them and could do this.) That touches on another aspect of this case I find troubling. Offhand, I think the best way to go about this might be to simply copy the page and mail it to her with a short note that she might want to explore the case with them. Alternatively, you could also do the same with Sherrill's sister.
I went to the One Missing Link website. They have an address there. I will write a brief letter this weekend with the info from the Vidocq website and address it personally to Janis McCall. They have an e-mail at the site but it goes to the Webmaster and I don't know if Janis herself will see it so I'll snail mail it.
Also, I am going to e-mail 48 Hours this weekend to see if they can do an update on their original story since the 15th anniversary will be here in a few months. If they can't, I am going to ask if they can re-broadcast it.
I saw someone at the airalex guest book said they e-mailed 48 Hours, Nancy Grace, 60 Minutes and Dateline. I will also e-mail Dateline, Nancy Grace and Greta Van Susteren this weekend as well. If they see more than one person inquiring about it they may actually look into it.
Missouri Mule
02-09-2007, 09:14 PM
I went to the One Missing Link website. They have an address there. I will write a brief letter this weekend with the info from the Vidocq website and address it personally to Janis McCall. They have an e-mail at the site but it goes to the Webmaster and I don't know if Janis herself will see it so I'll snail mail it.
Also, I am going to e-mail 48 Hours this weekend to see if they can do an update on their original story since the 15th anniversary will be here in a few months. If they can't, I am going to ask if they can re-broadcast it.
I saw someone at the airalex guest book said they e-mailed 48 Hours, Nancy Grace, 60 Minutes and Dateline. I will also e-mail Dateline, Nancy Grace and Greta Van Susteren this weekend as well. If they see more than one person inquiring about it they may actually look into it.
Good for you. This is how crime gets solved. The collective IQ's of everyone will eventually ferret out the criminals. This case has been kept under raps far too long. Keep up the good work. More later. I have just learned my copy of the "48 hour" tape is delayed because of a train derailment in Mesquite, Texas. I hope it was packaged well. Bummer!!
BTW, I also e-mailed Greta earlier today.
Trooogrit
02-10-2007, 01:24 PM
I watched the 48 hours show about this recently. It appears to me to be drug related. I think the suspects on the show are probably in some way connected. They may or not have been directly involved. I think they probably were involved with what occured or set it up. Would be interesting to know what they have done with there lives since then. My guess is not much. Probably destined to fail from what I saw.
My feeling is that Suzie knew the people involved and probably was the target. If she wasnt the target then a lot has to be learned about the background of the mother. If she got herself involved with the wrong people and owed money as has been suggested. It doesnt really matter the same element (type of people) would apply. This abduction was permanent from what the crime scene looked like. It was planned beforehand and they are gone. Clues and tips to the identity of the people involved have to come from the small group of people that are "in the know of what happened." Sometimes peoples confess when there conscience gets to them, but it doesnt appear that will happen in this case. The thing about it is that people who know information and dont do anything are just as guilty in my book. This case needs a good solid tip. This case has been kept too quiet with the public. I dont think enough information has been released to shake the people up, that were involved. It is really frustrating to know that people are this evil and are not being held responsible for there actions. How can they look themselves in the mirror.
Missouri Mule
02-10-2007, 02:18 PM
I watched the 48 hours show about this recently. It appears to me to be drug related. I think the suspects on the show are probably in some way connected. They may or not have been directly involved. I think they probably were involved with what occured or set it up. Would be interesting to know what they have done with their lives since then. My guess is not much. Probably destined to fail from what I saw.
My feeling is that Suzie knew the people involved and probably was the target. If she wasn't the target then a lot has to be learned about the background of the mother. If she got herself involved with the wrong people and owed money as has been suggested. It doesn't really matter the same element (type of people) would apply. This abduction was permanent from what the crime scene looked like. It was planned beforehand and they are gone. Clues and tips to the identity of the people involved have to come from the small group of people that are "in the know of what happened." Sometimes peoples confess when their conscience gets to them, but it doesnt appear that will happen in this case. The thing about it is that people who know information and dont do anything are just as guilty in my book. This case needs a good solid tip. This case has been kept too quiet with the public. I dont think enough information has been released to shake the people up, that were involved. It is really frustrating to know that people are this evil and are not being held responsible for there actions. How can they look themselves in the mirror?
To answer your last question first, it is because they are evil. Evil people do evil things. And psychopaths have no conscience to remind them of the evil things that they do. And they never take responsibility for their actions. It's always someone else's fault. If they kill someone they will blame the person they killed because they "made them do it." Ann Rule has an excellent description for these individuals. She, of course, is the famous true crime writer who was an ex-cop and then went to work in a counseling service and along side her was none other than Ted Bundy. Bundy, of course was the famous serial killer who murdered at a minimum some 36 women. Some estimates are that he murdered in the 100s of women. They fried him back in 1989 in Florida for his heinous crimes.
I have come to believe, as you do, that drugs were involved with the perpetrators and that they need not have been the ones who actually carried out the murders. And without any doubt, I now believe that Suzie was the target which explains the late hour that they were taken. There was no motive for Stacy and Sherrill could have been snatched much earlier. That leaves Suzie and a very likely motive may be found at the Greene County Circuit Clerk's website for anyone to check.
The problem here is that the Springfield P.D. must be held accountable for their inaction over the past 14+ years. I am convinced to a certainty that the best detectives that were assigned to this case know the identities of the perpetrators and/or their surrogates. And I'm not saying that out of thin air either.
What people can do, if they want to do nothing else to get involved, is to bring back national and local exposure to the case. The police department may have had certain elements at one time that were either incompetent and/or corrupt but that, in my view, is no longer the case. The prosecuting attorney is certainly motivated and the police need to be as well. This case needs to come off the back burner and reactivated in a real way to get community involvement. All it takes is the will and it will be solved. The families need closure in the worst way. And if anyone here knows something, by all means let the SPD know. You may be the one to break the case wide open.
Missouri Mule
02-11-2007, 12:46 AM
Can anyone give me information about the Jackie Johns murder in Christian County Missouri.
You can go to the Greene County website and get all of the information you need regarding the Jackie Johns case. There is a treasure trove of information there and very easy to use.
Missouri Mule
02-18-2007, 10:00 PM
But some new facts are emerging that appear to point to a motive to the case and it is indirectly related to the grave robbing incident that preceded their disappearance. Amazing what a little digging around and common sense will turn up. Now if the SPD take an interest in this case it might yet be solved. It does in fact appear to be drug related but not in the way one might expect.
Missouri Mule
02-19-2007, 12:01 PM
I'd like to invite all the amateur sleuths here who want to join in with
our group and our amazing developments.
http://www.airalex.com/MISSING.html
I'd like to personally invite such folks here at Miles Draken and Enrique Sparta, Buddy Midwest and others who have made such cogent posts. I know I have left out some folks but feel free to get involved. The more brain power we bring to the discussion the sooner it will be solved. I would prefer to carry on this discussion here but if there is no interest here then we should do it elsewhere where there is plenty of interest and specifics. And I'm not interested in psychics or visions. Just go to the "guestbook" and read the entries. The website is not as elegant as this one but it certainly gets interesting at times. There are nearly 600 posts and counting. Join us!
Missouri Mule
02-20-2007, 10:22 PM
Well, we are up to 647 posts (at the other site) and counting. Been digging here and digging there and several interesting theories are popping up, including multiple vans and four colors. Evidently the van was spotted near the home at 4:30 AM (according to the K.C. Star) which is very close to visible twilight. The colors of the van(s) has now been variously identified as "moss green" (the most common), brown, dark blue and finally "dirty white." The concensus is that although there is a tangential link to the grave robbing incident the more likely motive was drug related and the upcoming testimony which would touch on that issue and the probable squeezing of suspects to get at the "bigger fish." The information on the Greene County website is most interesting and the docket sheets, names and dates provide an insight not otherwise well understood by the public. I also wonder who paid the high priced defense attorney since this case could have been pleaded down to a weekend in jail on a misdemeanor charge (less than $100.)
An alternative theory is being explored and that is one of serial killers. There is no solid evidence for that theory except that some 5,200 tips/leads poured in and supposedly all were found to be bogus. Assuming that is true then one must take the advice of Sherlock Holmes -- “When you eliminate all other possibilities, what remains, no matter how improbable, is the answer." Therefore it can't be ruled out. There was a similar vanishing down I44 in Oklahoma prior to the Springfield women case. I am reminded of the famous "Dungeons and Dragons" murders and wonder if this might be patterned on that case.
Having said that, until the most obvious motive is cleared up, the second theory will have to be put on the back burner. There is some evidence something is going on within the SPD right now and perhaps something good will shortly happen. One can only hope so since justice has been denied for these many years.
raisincharlie
02-22-2007, 09:03 AM
KYTV in Springfield will be airing a segment on this case this evening 2/22/07 om the 10pm CST, segment. Adding that new information has come to light. Not sure what it is and whether KY3 will link the video but here is the site:
http://www.ky3.com/
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