PDA

View Full Version : Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10


Pages : 1 [2] 3 4

Murdock
06-21-2010, 06:12 PM
I have a question to put to all here. What keeps this train from derailing?

After the events of July 15, 2008, the Anthony family was thrust into the national media spotlight. We all saw the family's behavior unfold in a very unflattering way. George and Cindy gave their first interview, with local media, on Friday, July 18th and in quick succession were interviewed by Geraldo, Greta Van Susteran, and Nancy Grace, thus gaining national exposure.

For many people, they were drawn to this story by the behavior of George and Cindy. Casey was in jail and not talking, so she was for the moment, not the focus of the media's attention. It was George and Cindy telling reporters to "get off their butts and find my granddaughter" and waving a hammer at the reporters in a threatening manner, insisting that the odor in Casey's car was rotten pizza, or confronting protesters in front of their house with a baseball bat that kept the media's focus.

We know that George and/or Cindy were reading here at Websleuths because printouts of WS posts were found in their trash. It's reasonable to assume they've read other forums, and the comment section of their own local newspaper's online edition.

The public opinion of the Anthony family, universally, is very very negative. I'm sure that George, Cindy, and Lee (Casey is out of the loop as she doesn't have computer or media access) are very much aware of their negative image in the public eye. Lee has dropped off the radar as he's no longer making public comment.

Not a great example, but each one of us here knows that if we're with a group of people and the discussion turns to politics, and we say something that's not well received because most of the group are politically firmly aligned with the opposite party, you don't keep expounding on the remark that wasn't well received......it's not going to convince anyone to change, and you might be making some enemies with your political point of view.

George and Cindy continue to forge ahead with media appearances despite the fact that in doing so, they're incurring public anger with their comments and behavior.

I'm aware that what we're seeing with the Anthony family members is consistent with classic behavior of narcissistic personality disorder, and very likely sociopathic personality disorder. But, even so, I would think that George and Cindy would be aware of the public's perception and change their tactics in an effort to gain sympathy and support.

So, I'm wondering why George and Cindy continue down this track and why the train hasn't derailed yet?

Is there anything they can do, at this point, to change public perception? The time to both support KC & endear themselves to the public was in 2008, IMO. Anything they would say now, (such as thanking TES, and Roy Kronk, for example), would be taken as insincere.

Pink Panther
06-21-2010, 06:39 PM
The family appears to be quite messed up (according to mental health) at the very least. Sounds like "momma psychopath" married "poppa deadbeat submissive mildy ASPD" and they spawned KC. These people survived only because they lived in Florida. Any other civilization would have rejected them immediately!

MOO

countzero
06-21-2010, 08:26 PM
Leila, a one sentence answer to your question why.

Because the A clan think they are right and the world is wrong in opinions.

My opinion ..... they will never change theirs and will continue to challenge anyone and everyone. Two years after Caylees murder only reinforces it.

Aedrys
06-21-2010, 09:25 PM
Leila, I think they keep going in front of the media and saying the same things to convince themselves that they are still right. They were so strong about everything in the beginning, and now it seems like they can barely hold it together while saying the same things. It's like when a person is so traumatized, they say the same thing over and over to comfort themselves even if doesn't make a bit of sense.

I think all they have now is their pride and ego, and they have to keep stroking both to keep their support going for Casey. If they admit that they are wrong, then Casey really is the monster that took their granddaughter away and they really were bad parents. That's something I know Cindy can't live with. I bet she repeats, "I was a good mother, I am a good mother" in her sleep.

George, I can't fathom why he's still so in denial. He seems to know what is really going on but won't go against Cindy. I guess he's been trained too well by her and probably wouldn't know to live on his own without her. Plus, I'm sure she keeps her claws dug deep into him to keep him in line. You just don't cross Cindy Anthony. She's a mafia unto herself.

And in all of this self delusions of grandeur, the most precious thing of all is totally lost - Caylee. They're all so into making themselves feel better, even Casey, that Caylee is nonexistent. It's really sad that they have so much ego and pride that Caylee doesn't fit into their lives anymore.

wenwe4
06-21-2010, 09:46 PM
Here is how I would rate KC on this scale: Using 0 for No, 1 for Maybe, and 2 for Yes

•glib and superficial charm = 2 (flirting w/DA's, etc)
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self = 2 (event planner @ Universal)
•need for stimulation = 2 (multiple fusion invites)
•pathological lying = 2 (Zanny, Universal, squirrel, etc)
•cunning and manipulativeness = 2 (Amy's/Grandma SP/CA stolen $)
•lack of remorse or guilt = 2 (ate Chili w/o me!!!)
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness) = 2 (no tears except for herself)
•callousness and lack of empathy = 2 (no tears; 31 days; duct tape)
•parasitic lifestyle = 2 (live off parents/Tony & Amy $)
•poor behavioral controls = 2 (party @ Fusion/La Bella Vita)
•sexual promiscuity = 2 (Ricardo, Tony, Jessie, etc)
•early behavior problems = 1 (early onset lying)
•lack of realistic long-term goals = 1 (move in w/Amy w/o job or $)
•impulsivity = 2 (BOA, Target, JCPenny)
•irresponsibility = 2 (blame Zanny/LE/Jessie)
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions = 2 ("not my fault")
•many short-term marital relationships = 0 (1 x engaged)
•juvenile delinquency = 0 (didn't finish highschool)
•revocation of conditional release = 0 (picked up on new charges)
•criminal versatility = 0 (not enuf info)

Total Score (IMO) = 30 points

I am curious where other people would score her on this scale. . . .

Pattymarie
06-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Respectfully snipped.
I believe when she first smelled “death” in the car, she freaked. It was frightening to smell the sweet, sickening smell and I believe it is instinctual (just like it is in other animals) to know that it is the smell of death. She freaked again when she undoubtedly realized that it was the smell of her precious granddaughter’s rotting body. She dialed 911 without considering the implications to her “perfect” image. Cindy had to back peddle after her impulsive 911 call because she is a narcissist and image is everything.



I am not sure about this....prior to the murder...the A's were just a family living out their dysfunctional lives. There was no "image" to protect..image was nothing until they became notoriously famous...so was image and narcissism even a factor before the murder? Or has it only become apparent since their national exposure? And if this is so, are image and narcissism a factor in events leading up to the murder when no one knew who they were? Or are there other pathologies more prevalent?

TorisMom003
06-21-2010, 10:18 PM
Pattymarie, I slightly disagree. Cindy did have issues with image before all of this happened. Think back to her brother Rick's wedding where Casey was at least 7 months pregnant. People in the neighborhood have also made comments about Cindy buying numerous things for Caylee and "flaunting" them while walking around the block with George and Caylee. I'm sure that her co-workers would say the same thing. Cindy likes to appear to be well off, great mother, perfect family. Casey definately learned well at her mother's knee.

Leila
06-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Is there anything they can do, at this point, to change public perception? The time to both support KC & endear themselves to the public was in 2008, IMO. Anything they would say now, (such as thanking TES, and Roy Kronk, for example), would be taken as insincere.

I think public perception could have been swayed, at least in part, if they had called a press conference after Caylee's remains had been found and identified. If they had thanked OCSO, TES, and everyone who helped search for Caylee, and apologized for their behavior, it would have had an impact on public perception. Now, there wouldn't be much of an impact, as too much time has elapsed.

But by continuing to put themselves in the spotlight is only compounding the errors they've made.

Leila
06-21-2010, 11:22 PM
Leila, a one sentence answer to your question why.

Because the A clan think they are right and the world is wrong in opinions.

My opinion ..... they will never change theirs and will continue to challenge anyone and everyone. Two years after Caylees murder only reinforces it.

Thanks Countzero. It's a shame the Anthonys can't accept reality. I wonder what Cindy would do if, at the conclusion of the trial and with a guilty verdict, Casey asked to address the court and confessed to murdering Caylee?

countzero
06-22-2010, 12:19 AM
Problem with "normal" thinking, as most of us here have, is that for the A clan, their version of thinking is normal.

Don't be fooled by their methods of deceit and deflection. It's but only part of their manipulation. Don't be fooled by their lack of reality.

THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS A COHESIVE UNIT to Caylee.

And they are using everything they have to change historical events.

ICA will never confess. When ICA is found guilty, it will only fuel CA further to become a martyr and draw in more innocent people for her purposes.

Notice the lack of family support the A clan has; vs the negative support by SP and RP. Notice that Caylee didn't have any continual social contact with toddlers her age. The tv and dvds were all she had. She had little or no interactions with her peers in scheduled play groups, church activities or preschool. ICA didn't maintain any long term friends. She had many acquaintances, but no one has stood by her since her arrest.

As for CAs employment, many narcisstics function on different levels in a work setting because they know employment (money) is important. Why did CA leave her position as a hands on nurse and instead work behind a desk. Why does GA fail to maintain steady gainful employment. It's passive/aggressive behaviors that have allowed the As to survive as long as they have. GA won't leave CA nor will CA divorce GA. They each know the family secrets of the other. It's better to keep your enemies closer than friends, to watch over their moves is their motto. Affairs are ok as long as they are discrete and don't grow.

I could go on and on, but I think ya get the picture. And I see the A clan for who and what they are.

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 02:20 AM
Problem with "normal" thinking, as most of us here have, is that for the A clan, their version of thinking is normal.

Don't be fooled by their methods of deceit and deflection. It's but only part of their manipulation. Don't be fooled by their lack of reality.

THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS A COHESIVE UNIT to Caylee.

And they are using everything they have to change historical events.

ICA will never confess. When ICA is found guilty, it will only fuel CA further to become a martyr and draw in more innocent people for her purposes.

Notice the lack of family support the A clan has; vs the negative support by SP and RP. Notice that Caylee didn't have any continual social contact with toddlers her age. The tv and dvds were all she had. She had little or no interactions with her peers in scheduled play groups, church activities or preschool. ICA didn't maintain any long term friends. She had many acquaintances, but no one has stood by her since her arrest.

As for CAs employment, many narcisstics function on different levels in a work setting because they know employment (money) is important. Why did CA leave her position as a hands on nurse and instead work behind a desk. Why does GA fail to maintain steady gainful employment. It's passive/aggressive behaviors that have allowed the As to survive as long as they have. GA won't leave CA nor will CA divorce GA. They each know the family secrets of the other. It's better to keep your enemies closer than friends, to watch over their moves is their motto. Affairs are ok as long as they are discrete and don't grow.

I could go on and on, but I think ya get the picture. And I see the A clan for who and what they are.

Amen! These people are pro's at lying to themselves. When they lie to us (the public, LE, media etc) they do it so convincingly and stand their ground because they have convinced themselves what they spew is the truth and that WE are the bad guys. Their feelings become their facts and they will stick with it till the bitter end (perhaps not George, IMO he's the only one who may some day crack... IF he gets away from Momma Cindy)

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 02:27 AM
Thanks Countzero. It's a shame the Anthonys can't accept reality. I wonder what Cindy would do if, at the conclusion of the trial and with a guilty verdict, Casey asked to address the court and confessed to murdering Caylee?

IMO

She would spin some story to make it someone elses fault. No way she'd except it as who her daughter is. Just like she knew Casey was pregnant and stealing $ and going out with friends when she was supposed to be "working". Cindy couldn't handle it so she shoved it down, ignored it and rewrote Casey's life story to something she could handle. Casey could scream it in her face and Cindy would still not believe it, IMO.

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 02:32 AM
I think public perception could have been swayed, at least in part, if they had called a press conference after Caylee's remains had been found and identified. If they had thanked OCSO, TES, and everyone who helped search for Caylee, and apologized for their behavior, it would have had an impact on public perception. Now, there wouldn't be much of an impact, as too much time has elapsed.

But by continuing to put themselves in the spotlight is only compounding the errors they've made.

If they went on TV even ONE time while Caylee was "missing" and begged the person who took their granddaughter to return her.. it would have made all the difference in the world to me. My perception would be very different.

Mrs G Norris
06-22-2010, 02:38 AM
Problem with "normal" thinking, as most of us here have, is that for the A clan, their version of thinking is normal.

Don't be fooled by their methods of deceit and deflection. It's but only part of their manipulation. Don't be fooled by their lack of reality.

THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS A COHESIVE UNIT to Caylee.

And they are using everything they have to change historical events.

ICA will never confess. When ICA is found guilty, it will only fuel CA further to become a martyr and draw in more innocent people for her purposes.

Notice the lack of family support the A clan has; vs the negative support by SP and RP. Notice that Caylee didn't have any continual social contact with toddlers her age. The tv and dvds were all she had. She had little or no interactions with her peers in scheduled play groups, church activities or preschool. ICA didn't maintain any long term friends. She had many acquaintances, but no one has stood by her since her arrest.

As for CAs employment, many narcisstics function on different levels in a work setting because they know employment (money) is important. Why did CA leave her position as a hands on nurse and instead work behind a desk. Why does GA fail to maintain steady gainful employment. It's passive/aggressive behaviors that have allowed the As to survive as long as they have. GA won't leave CA nor will CA divorce GA. They each know the family secrets of the other. It's better to keep your enemies closer than friends, to watch over their moves is their motto. Affairs are ok as long as they are discrete and don't grow.

I could go on and on, but I think ya get the picture. And I see the A clan for who and what they are.

You're right....you're absolutely right.

Mrs G Norris
06-22-2010, 03:09 AM
I'm going to copy/paste your quote so that I can add a few score points here....Here is how I would rate KC on this scale: Using 0 for No, 1 for Maybe, and 2 for Yes

•glib and superficial charm = 2 (flirting w/DA's, calling her friends 'honey' etc)
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self = 2 (event planner @ Universal, singer!)
•need for stimulation = 2 (multiple fusion invites, internet, IM, phone etc)
•pathological lying = 2 (Zanny, Universal, squirrel, George's stroke, buying house from Cindy etc)
•cunning and manipulativeness = 2 (Amy's/Grandma SP/CA stolen $)
•lack of remorse or guilt = 2 (ate Chili w/o me!!!, repeatedly stole from grandma and Cindy and still faced them as if nothing happened)
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness) = 2 (no tears except for herself)
•callousness and lack of empathy = 2 (no tears; 31 days; duct tape)
•parasitic lifestyle = 2 (live off parents/Tony & Amy $)
•poor behavioral controls = 2 (party @ Fusion/La Bella Vita)
•sexual promiscuity = 2 (Ricardo, Tony, Jessie, etc etc etc!)
•early behavior problems = 1 (early onset lying, we don't know cos Cindy will never tell)
•lack of realistic long-term goals = 2 (move in w/Amy w/o job or $ OR HOUSE, , no education, no ability to support herself or Caylee)
•impulsivity = 2 (BOA, Target, JCPenny)
•irresponsibility = 2 (blame Zanny/LE/Jessie, dumping Caylee with Jessies dad)
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions = 2 ("not my fault" EVER)
•many short-term marital relationships = 2 (1 x engaged, she went through men like dishwater...and overlapped her relationships during transitional phases)
•juvenile delinquency = 0 (didn't finish highschool)
•revocation of conditional release = 0 (picked up on new charges)
•criminal versatility = 2 (theft, check fraud, murder, lying to LE during investigation in order to obstruct)

My Score (IMO) = 35 points

Mrs G Norris
06-22-2010, 03:19 AM
I think the A's wont back down from their ridiculous position because in every other situation they have been in that has caused opposition from outsiders they have eventually worn out their opponents with their refusal to back down, and people have eventually succumbed to their (well Cindy's) will and backed off, moved on, given in, etc.

But it ain't happening this time. The bullying tactics aren't working, in fact they're just making it worse.

Leila
06-22-2010, 04:46 AM
Problem with "normal" thinking, as most of us here have, is that for the A clan, their version of thinking is normal.

Don't be fooled by their methods of deceit and deflection. It's but only part of their manipulation. Don't be fooled by their lack of reality.

THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS A COHESIVE UNIT to Caylee.

And they are using everything they have to change historical events.

ICA will never confess. When ICA is found guilty, it will only fuel CA further to become a martyr and draw in more innocent people for her purposes.

Notice the lack of family support the A clan has; vs the negative support by SP and RP. Notice that Caylee didn't have any continual social contact with toddlers her age. The tv and dvds were all she had. She had little or no interactions with her peers in scheduled play groups, church activities or preschool. ICA didn't maintain any long term friends. She had many acquaintances, but no one has stood by her since her arrest.

As for CAs employment, many narcisstics function on different levels in a work setting because they know employment (money) is important. Why did CA leave her position as a hands on nurse and instead work behind a desk. Why does GA fail to maintain steady gainful employment. It's passive/aggressive behaviors that have allowed the As to survive as long as they have. GA won't leave CA nor will CA divorce GA. They each know the family secrets of the other. It's better to keep your enemies closer than friends, to watch over their moves is their motto. Affairs are ok as long as they are discrete and don't grow.

I could go on and on, but I think ya get the picture. And I see the A clan for who and what they are.

I think it's very difficult to comprehend how the A family thinks, trying to apply our "normal" thinking, reality, and emotions. They just don't think the way most everyone else does. I guess that's why they've been able to maintain their facade for so long.

Leila
06-22-2010, 04:51 AM
If they went on TV even ONE time while Caylee was "missing" and begged the person who took their granddaughter to return her.. it would have made all the difference in the world to me. My perception would be very different.

I agree! I came away from their first interview a few days after the events of July 15, 2008, wondering why they didn't make a tearful plea to the kidnapper to return Caylee. Instead, they rambled on about how they child-proofed their home, and how Casey used a shovel to remove bamboo shoots from the backyard so Caylee wouldn't hurt her feet. It was a very strange interview and left me with a lot of doubts about not only Casey, but her parents too.

Mrs G Norris
06-22-2010, 05:48 AM
I have come to believe that Caylee had been used as a pawn and a weapon in an ongoing battle in that house for a long time before Casey made her final move. And that this 'game' is what snowballed out of control, not some 'accident' as George theorized when talking to 'River'.

LiveLaughLuv
06-22-2010, 07:18 AM
Exclusive: George and Cindy Anthony Speak on 2nd Anniversary of Caylee's Disappearance
Grandparents Call Time 'Unbearable,' Say Casey Anthony Is Innocent But 'Anything Can Happen' in Trial

By ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, KAITLYN FOLMER and LEE FERRAN
June 15, 2010
Two years ago today Florida 2-year-old Caylee Anthony vanished , sparking what would become one of the nation's highest profile murder cases and beginning a time of intense and painful scrutiny that has seared the entire Anthony family, Caylee's grandparents said today.

Anthony's grandparents discuss Caylee's death and daughter's imprisonment.

More Photos "The last two years have been just unbearable," an emotional George Anthony told "Good Morning America" in an exclusive interview today as he sat alongside his wife, Cindy Anthony . "To think about the last time we saw Caylee and Casey together, hear her voice, to see her little eyes and get a hug and kiss from her. It's not easy."
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/exclusive-george-cindy-anthony-speak-anniversary-caylees-disappearance/story?id=10911174


Though she maintains her daughter Casey is innocent and has "faith in the system," Cindy Anthony said that she did initially consider that Casey could have played a part in Caylee's disappearance. Acknowledging that a jury might feel the same way, Cindy Anthony said, "Anything can happen" when Casey goes to trial in the spring.

"I mean the thought did cross our mind in the very beginning. There may have been an accident," Cindy said. But Cindy said she dismissed the thought, even though Casey refused to tell her where Caylee was.

"I'm not angry about it so much as I am frustrated because I might be able to better understand why she's where she's at now. Because, I still truly believe that she is innocent," the grandmother said. "There's got to be a motive there that's much greater than this whole picture."


The A's will never face the truth for facing the truth means her lying child is a murderer...if and big if..an accident occurred, one call to 911 and we wouldn't be sitting here talking....why drive around with Caylee's body for 2.6 days? Why dump her with duct tape to make it look as if an alleged kidnapping took place..

This family is in the river denial....they will never admit to the wrongs Inmate Anthony has done....I feel so sorry for Caylee, that is who my heart breaks for...

Justice for Caylee

strawberry
06-22-2010, 09:10 AM
I'm going to copy/paste your quote so that I can add a few score points here....Here is how I would rate KC on this scale: Using 0 for No, 1 for Maybe, and 2 for Yes

•glib and superficial charm = 2 (flirting w/DA's, calling her friends 'honey' etc)
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self = 2 (event planner @ Universal, singer!)
•need for stimulation = 2 (multiple fusion invites, internet, IM, phone etc)
•pathological lying = 2 (Zanny, Universal, squirrel, George's stroke, buying house from Cindy etc)
•cunning and manipulativeness = 2 (Amy's/Grandma SP/CA stolen $)
•lack of remorse or guilt = 2 (ate Chili w/o me!!!, repeatedly stole from grandma and Cindy and still faced them as if nothing happened)
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness) = 2 (no tears except for herself)
•callousness and lack of empathy = 2 (no tears; 31 days; duct tape)
•parasitic lifestyle = 2 (live off parents/Tony & Amy $)
•poor behavioral controls = 2 (party @ Fusion/La Bella Vita)
•sexual promiscuity = 2 (Ricardo, Tony, Jessie, etc etc etc!)
•early behavior problems = 1 (early onset lying, we don't know cos Cindy will never tell)
•lack of realistic long-term goals = 2 (move in w/Amy w/o job or $ OR HOUSE, , no education, no ability to support herself or Caylee)
•impulsivity = 2 (BOA, Target, JCPenny)
•irresponsibility = 2 (blame Zanny/LE/Jessie, dumping Caylee with Jessies dad)
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions = 2 ("not my fault" EVER)
•many short-term marital relationships = 2 (1 x engaged, she went through men like dishwater...and overlapped her relationships during transitional phases)
•juvenile delinquency = 0 (didn't finish highschool)
•revocation of conditional release = 0 (picked up on new charges)
•criminal versatility = 2 (theft, check fraud, murder, lying to LE during investigation in order to obstruct)

My Score (IMO) = 35 points


ITA! I am currently reading "Without Conscience" about psycopaths and holy moly she fits the profile almost to a T!

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 07:48 PM
I think the A's wont back down from their ridiculous position because in every other situation they have been in that has caused opposition from outsiders they have eventually worn out their opponents with their refusal to back down, and people have eventually succumbed to their (well Cindy's) will and backed off, moved on, given in, etc.

But it ain't happening this time. The bullying tactics aren't working, in fact they're just making it worse.

I'm with ya.. I gotta admit I get a sick little thrill when I think of what the knowledge of that fact fact must be doing to Cindy. For the first time in her life she can't force people to sucumb to her will. I LOVE the Morgan depo because it was right after that IMO that she finally shut UP because she had to have realized after it was over that while she thought she was playing him with her big tough girl in your face act and her "time-line" and Zani spelt wrong "bomb shells" it was she who was being played the entire time. And it was clearly PRE-planned.. she even told him she's prepped for it. Still he tricked her. I like that man!

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 08:08 PM
I have come to believe that Caylee had been used as a pawn and a weapon in an ongoing battle in that house for a long time before Casey made her final move. And that this 'game' is what snowballed out of control, not some 'accident' as George theorized when talking to 'River'.

I believe Casey was used as a weapon her entire life as well.

If she did this it's wrong and she should be punished but we as a society need to see what creates a "Casey" in order to stop "Caylee's" from happening. I get preachy a lot, I know.. but this stuff is happening in homes everywhere, probably right next door to more than half of us here (sure not to the extent of murder of course but it's what creates the patterns of behavior that lead to this kind of crime, IMO). There are millions of homes just like this, millions of victims and those victims age and create (give birth to) more victims.. it's a sick cycle and we come to believe that is what love is. But people can change their thinking patterns, their behaviors.. It can be stopped before it gets to this- had Cindy done something .. really done something except live in denial, this would not have happened.. none of it.
No, it's not her fault- if Casey did this then it was Casey's choices, not Cindy's that ended a life. But it could have been prevented- Casey could have been prevented.

OneLostGrl
06-22-2010, 08:11 PM
Exclusive: George and Cindy Anthony Speak on 2nd Anniversary of Caylee's Disappearance
Grandparents Call Time 'Unbearable,' Say Casey Anthony Is Innocent But 'Anything Can Happen' in Trial

By ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, KAITLYN FOLMER and LEE FERRAN
June 15, 2010
Two years ago today Florida 2-year-old Caylee Anthony vanished , sparking what would become one of the nation's highest profile murder cases and beginning a time of intense and painful scrutiny that has seared the entire Anthony family, Caylee's grandparents said today.

Anthony's grandparents discuss Caylee's death and daughter's imprisonment.

More Photos "The last two years have been just unbearable," an emotional George Anthony told "Good Morning America" in an exclusive interview today as he sat alongside his wife, Cindy Anthony . "To think about the last time we saw Caylee and Casey together, hear her voice, to see her little eyes and get a hug and kiss from her. It's not easy."
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/exclusive-george-cindy-anthony-speak-anniversary-caylees-disappearance/story?id=10911174





The A's will never face the truth for facing the truth means her lying child is a murderer...if and big if..an accident occurred, one call to 911 and we wouldn't be sitting here talking....why drive around with Caylee's body for 2.6 days? Why dump her with duct tape to make it look as if an alleged kidnapping took place..

This family is in the river denial....they will never admit to the wrongs Inmate Anthony has done....I feel so sorry for Caylee, that is who my heart breaks for...

Justice for Caylee

:banghead: Oh George

countzero
06-22-2010, 08:23 PM
I believe Casey was used as a weapon her entire life as well.

If she did this it's wrong and she should be punished but we as a society need to see what creates a "Casey" in order to stop "Caylee's" from happening. I get preachy a lot, I know.. but this stuff is happening in homes everywhere, probably right next door to more than half of us here (sure not to the extent of murder of course but it's what creates the patterns of behavior that lead to this kind of crime, IMO). There are millions of homes just like this, millions of victims and those victims age and create (give birth to) more victims.. it's a sick cycle and we come to believe that is what love is. But people can change their thinking patterns, their behaviors.. It can be stopped before it gets to this- had Cindy done something .. really done something except live in denial, this would not have happened.. none of it.
No, it's not her fault- if Casey did this then it was Casey's choices, not Cindy's that ended a life. But it could have been prevented- Casey could have been prevented.

Amen. From personal experience at seeing first hand what punishments can be doled out, I firmly believe that ICA was hated by CA the minute she was delivered. And CA made it a point to play ICA against GA when the opportunity arose to do so. I also firmly believe that ICA did the same with Caylee. Playing Caylee against both CA and GA on a daily basis. By the time Caylee was born, ICA was already a threat to herself and CA manipulated Caylee's birth against both ICA and GA. So much passive/agressive behaviors that no one in the A clan wanted to break the cycle. They instead choose to hide behind closed doors and learned how to "appear" as normal. All four failed and yet they continued to think they were perceived as a "normal" unit.

What really tipped me off about their manipulations as well as narcissistic behaviors, was their simple lack to use Caylee's name when talking about her. From the minute the media got ahold of this horrible story, Caylee was referred to as "that child", "my granddaughter", "my daughter", "that baby", NEVER using her proper name when talking about Caylee. We saw it in those home videos and the media junkets the A's participated in. It's so typical of being dissociative with people. Big red flag for me about them.

Mrs G Norris
06-22-2010, 09:04 PM
You're right. By the time she died Caylee had been completely objectified, she was a moral stance, a bargaining chip, an argument, and had 'uses' in an ongoing drama. Its so obvious because that's exactly what she STILL IS! Her death has increased her wealth by expanding the drama into the wider cultural landscape... NOW she is media attention, ongoing sympathy, a financial free pass and an INCOME.

It's really affected me that she had no little toddler friends, I think that says it all...who was looking out for HER happiness, who was making sure she was creating a little life for herself...NOBODY.

sharpar
06-23-2010, 01:36 AM
They arent in denial they are in delusion ..... they will never give it up. No matter what evidence is presented that the delusion isnt true . Instead of accepting the truth
they reject the message vilify the messenger and deny the existance of the evidence.
Cindy will be saying KC is innocent and MOTY forever.

suepitzl
06-23-2010, 03:28 AM
Leila, I think they keep going in front of the media and saying the same things to convince themselves that they are still right. They were so strong about everything in the beginning, and now it seems like they can barely hold it together
hile saying the same things. It's like when a person is so traumatized, they say the same thing over and over to comfort themselves even if doesn't make a bit of sense.

I think all they have now is their pride and ego, and they have to keep stroking both to keep their support going for Casey. If they admit that they are wrong, then Casey really is the monster that took their granddaughter away and they really were bad parents. That's something I know Cindy can't live with. I bet she repeats, "I was a good mother, I am a good mother" in her sleep.

George, I can't fathom why he's still so in denial. He seems to know what is really going on but won't go against Cindy. I guess he's been trained too well by her and probably wouldn't know to live on his own without her. Plus, I'm sure she keeps her claws dug deep into him to keep him in line. You just don't cross Cindy Anthony. She's a mafia unto herself.

And in all of this self delusions of grandeur, the most precious thing of all is totally lost - Caylee. They're all so into making themselves feel better, even Casey, that Caylee is nonexistent. It's really sad that they have so much ego and pride that Caylee doesn't fit into their lives anymore.

In My opinion having bad parents has nothing to do with what she did. She is totally accountable for her deeds !!!
I was raised in a hellish environment and have never thought of or kiled anyone

wenwe4
06-23-2010, 11:49 AM
Amen. From personal experience at seeing first hand what punishments can be doled out, I firmly believe that ICA was hated by CA the minute she was delivered. And CA made it a point to play ICA against GA when the opportunity arose to do so. I also firmly believe that ICA did the same with Caylee. Playing Caylee against both CA and GA on a daily basis. By the time Caylee was born, ICA was already a threat to herself and CA manipulated Caylee's birth against both ICA and GA. So much passive/agressive behaviors that no one in the A clan wanted to break the cycle. They instead choose to hide behind closed doors and learned how to "appear" as normal. All four failed and yet they continued to think they were perceived as a "normal" unit.

What really tipped me off about their manipulations as well as narcissistic behaviors, was their simple lack to use Caylee's name when talking about her. From the minute the media got ahold of this horrible story, Caylee was referred to as "that child", "my granddaughter", "my daughter", "that baby", NEVER using her proper name when talking about Caylee. We saw it in those home videos and the media junkets the A's participated in. It's so typical of being dissociative with people. Big red flag for me about them.

You're right. By the time she died Caylee had been completely objectified, she was a moral stance, a bargaining chip, an argument, and had 'uses' in an ongoing drama. Its so obvious because that's exactly what she STILL IS! Her death has increased her wealth by expanding the drama into the wider cultural landscape... NOW she is media attention, ongoing sympathy, a financial free pass and an INCOME.

It's really affected me that she had no little toddler friends, I think that says it all...who was looking out for HER happiness, who was making sure she was creating a little life for herself...NOBODY.

Respectfully BBM

You both nailed it (IMO)! I believe the issue of "parent/child attachment and bonding" has been a constant theme throughout this family's history. KC denied the pregnancy stating it was "female problems" (ie: a tumor?). When CA held the "tumor" before KC did, in KC's opinion this was the reason she didn't have a good "bond" with Caylee. Remember all of the references made early on that CA was going to take time off to "bond" with with Caylee (and KC?). The missing piece here was no soft place for Caylee to land. No caring adult who could consistently meet her needs because she had to take a back seat to meeting CA's and KC's needs. I feel KC never actually thought of Caylee as more than something to show off, as a reflection of her perfect self but when she did not "perform" in a manner pleasing to KC then poor little Caylee returned to the image of "nothing more than a female problem/tumor" to KC that was also the greatest bargaining chip in punishing her Mother for not "bonding" with KC. I think KC saw Caylee as a "bond sucker" from her Mother CA, and KC could not stand to put her needs aside any longer.

Aedrys
06-23-2010, 02:26 PM
In My opinion having bad parents has nothing to do with what she did. She is totally accountable for her deeds !!!
I was raised in a hellish environment and have never thought of or kiled anyone

I never said they are totally to blame, but I do think THEY put all of their self worth into CASEY, and that's why they continue to defend her. If she's innocent, in their minds, they did a good job raising her and are the perfect parents. If she's guilty, in their minds, then they were not good parents and raised a monster.

Btw, constantly enabling children, not making them suffer any consequences, doing ridiculous things like going up to a school and arguing with the teacher about grades the kid earned, stuff like that is going to ensure your kid is self centered, self absorbed and with a sense of entitlement that is just crazy. Look at Casey. She thought she could go through life stealing money from other people instead of working, using people and tossing them aside when they didn't benefit her anymore, and lying through her teeth about everything and everyone would just keep believing her, even those in authority. She has no respect for anyone but herself. Caylee was just a mistake and a pawn in the game with Cindy, not a precious child to be treasured and loved. And where did this all of this attitude come from? Her enabling parents who also lied and covered up every deed, even the murder of their own granddaughter, all for someone who would just as soon kill them and move on to a beautiful life without them.

So not every child who had a hellish childhood turns out to be a murderer, but I don't see a hellish childhood here. I see one of getting her way at every turn, and it was only when Caylee entered the picture that she started suffering (in her mind it was suffering) such extreme jealousy at that baby taking her parents full and undivided attention away from her that she went to the extreme of murdering her. And look now, she's got her parents full and undivided attention again and again. The only suffering she's ever had is when she fell on her face and busted a lip and broke a tooth.

At least half of the responsibility for what happened to Caylee here lies directly on the heads of Casey's parents. Casey and Caylee lived with them, and yet it took thirty one days for them to finally start worrying about Caylee? (And IMO, Casey was fully dependant on them, so that means she and the baby were their responsibility. Until Casey got a job, paid her own taxes, and lived in her own place, they had every right to wonder where Casey and Caylee were and who she was with). I have never understood that. They've tampered with evidence, lied over and over again, changed stories, bashed innocent people left and right including the man who found Caylee and an entire organization devoted to finding children dead or alive (plus TM himself to his face), and basically made this horrendous murder more of a warfare between them and the rest of the planet. Gee, is it a surprise their daughter turned out so horribly when even after she murders their grandchild they're willing to keep enabling her this much?

And I didn't have the greatest childhood either, but I had parents who taught me morals, ethics, and a sense of responsibility, maybe not in the greatest way, but they did not enable me at every step and not expect me to take responsibility for myself and my actions. Casey thinks they will always clean up her messes and she doesn't have to be responsible for anything, that's how much they've enabled her.

Sorry about the rant, but in this case, the parents of Casey are very much so responsible for what happened to Caylee. The only thing they didn't do is the evil act itself and the dumping of the body afterwards. All IMO.

OneLostGrl
06-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Amen. From personal experience at seeing first hand what punishments can be doled out, I firmly believe that ICA was hated by CA the minute she was delivered. And CA made it a point to play ICA against GA when the opportunity arose to do so. I also firmly believe that ICA did the same with Caylee. Playing Caylee against both CA and GA on a daily basis. By the time Caylee was born, ICA was already a threat to herself and CA manipulated Caylee's birth against both ICA and GA. So much passive/agressive behaviors that no one in the A clan wanted to break the cycle. They instead choose to hide behind closed doors and learned how to "appear" as normal. All four failed and yet they continued to think they were perceived as a "normal" unit.

What really tipped me off about their manipulations as well as narcissistic behaviors, was their simple lack to use Caylee's name when talking about her. From the minute the media got ahold of this horrible story, Caylee was referred to as "that child", "my granddaughter", "my daughter", "that baby", NEVER using her proper name when talking about Caylee. We saw it in those home videos and the media junkets the A's participated in. It's so typical of being dissociative with people. Big red flag for me about them.


It's heart breaking.

OneLostGrl
06-23-2010, 09:19 PM
You're right. By the time she died Caylee had been completely objectified, she was a moral stance, a bargaining chip, an argument, and had 'uses' in an ongoing drama. Its so obvious because that's exactly what she STILL IS! Her death has increased her wealth by expanding the drama into the wider cultural landscape... NOW she is media attention, ongoing sympathy, a financial free pass and an INCOME.

It's really affected me that she had no little toddler friends, I think that says it all...who was looking out for HER happiness, who was making sure she was creating a little life for herself...NOBODY.

"We are like the same little person"

-Casey

OneLostGrl
06-23-2010, 09:26 PM
They arent in denial they are in delusion ..... they will never give it up. No matter what evidence is presented that the delusion isnt true . Instead of accepting the truth
they reject the message vilify the messenger and deny the existance of the evidence.
Cindy will be saying KC is innocent and MOTY forever.

Exactly. Cindy changes her reality as she sees fit. She molds things into something she can handle and everyone better play along. She literally created another life for Casey.. bits of things Casey told her, bits of things she tossed in cuz they sounded good. This became her reality and Casey played along, (walking on those egg shells) hiding her real self.. shoving her self down, pretending to be someone she wasn't so her mother would love and accept her. Because clearly she didn't accept the REAL her. The real her was right in front of her mothers face and still she didn't see.

ynotdivein
06-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Bringing this over from George & Cindy Letters thread... :dance:

Hi, OLG! I know that sociopaths will always blame someone else...as do those with BPD. I know that you and I would agree with a BPD diagnosis, but do you think Cindy could be socipathic as well?

kushka
06-29-2010, 12:19 AM
Reading the letters from Cindy and George, made my convention that the emotional abuse that Casey suffered and that is still being inflicted on her by her parents was horrid, and must have contributed to her murdering Caylee. However, I had also heard that there where neurological differences to a psychopaths and sociopaths brains, that they were born, not made.

I just ran across a wonderful story on the NPR website that helped clear up for me this contradiction of whether Casey was born a sociopath or had Cindy’s abuses made her one.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976&ps=cprs

It seemed this neuroscientist, James Fallon, at the University of California-Irvine had been studying the brains of psychopaths and sociopaths for 20 years; and had found that they have very low activity in the orbital cortex which scientist believe is involved in ethical behavior, also DNA studies have found that violent criminals tend to have a specific variant of the MAO-A gene.

His 88-year-old mother suggested that he look at his father’s side of the family. It seemed that his great_great_grandfather had killed his mother, and there were 7 other murders among his descendents (including Lizzy Borden). Well to make a long story short Dr. Fellon found he had a psychopath’s brain and MAO-A gene.

The difference between himself and the murders, he has come to believe was that he had a wonderful home life, he was dotted on by his parents and had close loving relationships with his siblings and extended family. Thus, he has had a wonderful career, and long and happy marriage and three grown children (who lucky have not inherited his deviant gene.

He used to believe that psychopaths were born that way, now he believes that it takes the mixture of genes and childhood abuse to create one. I believe Casey had that combination.

Harmony2
06-29-2010, 05:09 PM
This is an article about Joran Van der Sloot but I thought the information applied to Casey's background as well.

Very interesting article by forensic psychologist Dr. Stephen Diamond:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201006/was-natalee-holloway-the-victim-vicious-serial-killer?page=2

Strange as it may seem, such overindulgence, lack of discipline, and overprotectiveness on the part of sometimes sincerely well-meaning parents can be as deeply wounding and destructive as its polar opposite: neglect, abandonment, abuse, deprivation. It is in itself a traumatizing type of deprivation and abandonment in which the child's basic needs for structure, guidance, limit-setting, consequences, reality testing, supervision and parental authority are ignored, neglected and frustrated. In a sense, the child feels that the overindulgent, overpermissive parent doesn't care enough to provide the limit-setting and structure he or she needs. And the child is at first hurt by, and then angered at this parental failure and lack of responsibility. This anger, having no real outlet (how can a child be angry with such ostensibly loving, nurturing and indulgent parents?), tends to be repressed and fester, turning over time into toxic resentment, embitterment and narcissistic rage. But the psychopathic narcissist masks this rage masterfully in most situations

Chiquita71
06-30-2010, 02:10 AM
Hello WS :)

I was thinking about DC and how Cindy sent him into the woods looking for Caylee. Cindy even told LE, "I had some people out there searching"(paraphrased).

I would love for DC to confirm(at trial)for us that Cindy did indeed send him out to the woods off of Suburban. I think that act is the strongest(but goodness not the only!) reason I see Cindy is as sly as a fox and not in any kind of denial.

Cindy told several of Casey's friends that Casey wasn't to be trusted, even going so far as to call Casey a "sociopath." Why would Cindy use that term(besides the fact that she is a cold and punishing mother)? Being a nurse she has extra education behind using a word like that...

I have stated that I thought George and Cindy knew Casey was weak, but I thought they could have never thought Casey would kill or hurt Caylee...

I think I am changing my mind. Cindy had to have seen Casey be a "bad" mother and not just the going out...that is why she asked Casey, "what have you done?"

When my sister's fiance's parents came to visit to meet my parents, my mother told them all kinds of bad things about my sister to their faces. She let them know all kinds of negative things about my sister...but she never called her a "sociopath."

As with AVS and Scott Peterson's parents...there seems to be a dynamic where the parents are/have to be aware of what their child is...yet they defend the child should anyone else also figure out what their child is...

Maybe something like that....

But, Cindy could not have been in denial...imo or she never could have sent DC into the woods to look for "Caylee", as in an "alive" Caylee...she had to have sent him there to see if that is where Casey had put her. Cindy either heard though a "daisy chain" or she just knew her "sociopathic" daughter well enough to listen to what even the neighbors were saying: if Casey killed Caylee she put her in the woods. (per the Bailey's, Kio Marie, and other neighbors and people that had known Casey when she was younger.)

None of these people really seemed surprised that Casey was accused of killing her daughter and went right away into where they thought she would put her daughter. Annie Dowling felt that ("if") Casey had killed Caylee she had to have had help, Cindy made the same statement at one time. Very telling, imo.

...js...

Chiquita71
07-02-2010, 01:27 AM
Thank you to Mrs. G. Norris for the link to Dr. Glass's assessment of Cindy's letters to Casey. :)

http://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/cindy-anthony%E2%80%99s-letters-to-casey-reveal-her-focus-on-casey%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cbeauty-possible-manipulation-and-passive-agressive-mind-games/

I don’t want to upset you.” To me it seems that is EXACTLY what she wants to do with Casey- upset her.

She knows exactly what buttons to push with her sociopathic daughter. She knows exactly what will upset Casey.

(It is interesting to me that the Dr. uses the phrase "her sociopathic daughter" as I posted previously I feel Cindy completely understood what a sociopath was, and I am sure having gone to school to be a nurse she had psych classes with this very subject. Cindy seems to derive joy from upsetting Casey.)

But Cindy lives in the illusion that Casey is refusing to see her because the media would scrutinize their vista.

She can’t even bring herself to look at Cindy as evidenced when she is in the courtroom and ignores her mother and father.

Why in the world is Cindy sending Casey so many photos of Caylee and various developmental stages in her babyhood?

She attempts to make Casey feel guilty and remorseful for killing Caylee-( emotions which sociopathic Casey cannot and will not ever feel) by sending her an infant photo of Caylee with the following post it note attached to it that says “She was trying to tell us something even then. She loves her momma.”

To me this is a sickening display of passive aggressive manipulation in Cindy’s part.

Cindy doesn’t get that no matter how many photos or notes she sends Casey with regard to Caylee, Casey, doesn’t care! It means nothing to her. She doesn’t feel guilt or upset that she killed Caylee.

Cindy even supplying Casey with paper and and a self addressed envelope shows how desperate she is to get Casey to write.

Cindy’s attempts at manipulating Casey to get her to feel guilt are really Cindy’s deep rooted feelings of her own guilt.

There is no doubt that when this is all over, her recovery time and her freedom from her guilt will be quick.

If Casey is sent away for life or dies by lethal injection, my thoughts are that Cindy will quickly move on. Why I say that has a lot to do with the handwriting in her letters to Casey.

Maybe Cindy is optimistic that once Casey is finally out of her life for good, she will be more optimistic about her own future.

Personally, I believe that she will use what happened with Casey and Caylee as a vehicle for her own purpose and her own future - to make a lot of money . This will be in keeping of what she wrote to Casey, regarding "Caylee not dying in vain.”

I hope this in only 10%, and if not mods I will delete. Thank you. :)

All of this is what I have been thinking,(and if I may speak for many WSers who have posted the same). Cindy Anthony is imo, almost worse or something worse than a sociopath, a Master Sociopath.

Casey killed Caylee but Cindy wants us to "pay no attention to the (wo)man behind the curtain." Who is "more evil", the person who did the deed or the person who pushes the buttons of the perp? And, in the end it is Cindy that will be living "la bella vita." She "wins." Cindy wrote to Casey, "don't let them win." Appearances and winning are of the utmost concern to Cindy. Well, Cindy will feel as though she has won but we know she lost everything because she lost Caylee. Cindy's loss is in not being aware of that fact, she knows to act like she feels this way but it is not genuine any more than any of Casey's feelings are genuine except for themselves.

My opinion only except for the stuff I swiped from the Dr. which happens to be my opinion also(the whole article I agree with).

:twocents:

Chiquita71
07-02-2010, 02:53 AM
Hello WS :)

After I posted, I had a thought. One difference I am giving Cindy is that Cindy is feeling guilt while Casey has been said to be incapable of that. But is Cindy's "guilt" as we know it?

In Scott M. Peck's "People of the Lie" he says to the effect (my interpretation of what I have read is) "evil people" cannot see themselves as evil and that's what makes them "evil." Other people are evil, they are good, not evil. Therefore everything they do is good because they are good people.

I suppose guilt can make different people do different things, some come clean or make amends, while some take more negative roads in dealing with guilt.

I feel it is less actual "guilt" Cindy is attempting to rid herself of(I do agree she is trying to put real guilt into Casey), and more ridding herself of responsibility. Cindy wants to always be in control, what she says goes but she does not want to take responsibility for how things turn out. Sounds like politicians to me... :innocent:

Cindy’s attempts at manipulating Casey to get her to feel guilt are really Cindy’s deep rooted feelings of her own guilt.

There is no doubt that when this is all over, her recovery time and her freedom from her guilt will be quick.

If Casey is sent away for life or dies by lethal injection, my thoughts are that Cindy will quickly move on. Why I say that has a lot to do with the handwriting in her letters to Casey.

I agree that Cindy will recover quickly, and imo that disturbs me most of all. I do not see this as a show of strength(as Cindy will want it to be seen) but as proof that Cindy is as (unusual) as Casey. Maybe more if that is possible.

If it is true, (scientifically, medically, factually confirmed) that Casey is incapable of feeling guilty or remorseful regarding herself, it is still not why she killed her daughter or how she was able. It is just why she could go on like nothing happened, or like the best thing ever happened.

If we say it is true that Cindy knew exactly what buttons to push to make Casey upset, and that is and has been a goal/enjoyment/rearing philosophy then seeing Cindy deny Casey's pregnancy, being the first to hold Caylee, calling Caylee Casey's best "mistake", praising her looks while saying the things Jesse said he heard Cindy say about Casey: tell people she is a sociopath, berate Casey for being a bad Mother and that Cindy is more of a mother who provides everything, and then threatens to take Caylee away from Casey...then to steal a phase, "if those aren't head games..." Games Cindy does not want to get caught playing.

ETA: Cindy does not feel guilty because she refuses to take any responsibility: (paraphrased) "You only have yourself to blame, sweetheart."

...js...

ynotdivein
07-02-2010, 05:25 AM
Cindy does not feel guilty because she refuses to take any responsibility: (paraphrased) "You only have yourself to blame, sweetheart."

...js...

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Wonder how CA felt saying those words. And how KC felt hearing them.

sharpar
07-02-2010, 05:50 AM
The majority of cindy's guilt I believe is not that KC hurt Caylee but that she is so relieved the misbehaving daughter is out of her home . KC in jail is its own relief.

strawberry
07-02-2010, 06:16 AM
Interesting that Dr. Glass (almost said Dr. G) agrees with many of us here that the letters showed a very passive aggressive CA.

Woe.be.gone
07-02-2010, 03:37 PM
This is o/t but I have to express this. I had truTV on to watch the emergency hearing. Afterward a program came on about young women who abandon their newborn babies in garbage cans and along the roadside.

Texas alone had thirteen abandoned babies found dead (last year? - not sure the dates). A woman in California (Farris or Harris?) is so saddened by this common occurrence that she bought forty burial plots to give the abandoned babies a proper burial. She names the babies, puts them in a tiny white casket and buries them with crosses and names listing where they were found. She has purchased forty more plots but hopes they remain empty.

I never knew this was such a common occurrence. It's shocking. We discuss how KC went seven months with nobody commenting and ignoring that she was pregnant. Evidently this happens all the time because the girls who are abandoning their babies would have to offer an explanation to somebody one would think about where their baby is after it is born. :waitasec:
Many people are eager/desperate to adopt and this is still happening.

The woman in California is working on a safe haven law (which I think exists in some places) so that a birth mother cannot be prosecuted for dropping the baby at a safe place according to baby abandonment laws.

Apparently there are hundreds of people out there that are capable of tossing their offspring into the garbage so they will not be bothered. Unbelievable. :furious:

Woe.be.gone
07-02-2010, 05:30 PM
You're right. By the time she died Caylee had been completely objectified, she was a moral stance, a bargaining chip, an argument, and had 'uses' in an ongoing drama. Its so obvious because that's exactly what she STILL IS! Her death has increased her wealth by expanding the drama into the wider cultural landscape... NOW she is media attention, ongoing sympathy, a financial free pass and an INCOME.

It's really affected me that she had no little toddler friends, I think that says it all...who was looking out for HER happiness, who was making sure she was creating a little life for herself...NOBODY.

So true. Now we read in a letter that CA considers Caylee to be "their salvation" whatever that means - does it mean they have called out to Christ due to Caylee's premature death?

Another peculiar comment imo is when KC said to her parents during a jail visit that Caylee WAS the best of all of us. Now assuming Caylee was created by one of Casey's eggs and an unknown sperm donor - that sperm donor would have contributed to the person known as Caylee. Yet they are a unit unto themselves. I find that odd indeed.

OneLostGrl
07-02-2010, 09:38 PM
This is o/t but I have to express this. I had truTV on to watch the emergency hearing. Afterward a program came on about young women who abandon their newborn babies in garbage cans and along the roadside.

Texas alone had thirteen abandoned babies found dead (last year? - not sure the dates). A woman in California (Farris or Harris?) is so saddened by this common occurrence that she bought forty burial plots to give the abandoned babies a proper burial. She names the babies, puts them in a tiny white casket and buries them with crosses and names listing where they were found. She has purchased forty more plots but hopes they remain empty.

I never knew this was such a common occurrence. It's shocking. We discuss how KC went seven months with nobody commenting and ignoring that she was pregnant. Evidently this happens all the time because the girls who are abandoning their babies would have to offer an explanation to somebody one would think about where their baby is after it is born. :waitasec:
Many people are eager/desperate to adopt and this is still happening.

The woman in California is working on a safe haven law (which I think exists in some places) so that a birth mother cannot be prosecuted for dropping the baby at a safe place according to baby abandonment laws.

Apparently there are hundreds of people out there that are capable of tossing their offspring into the garbage so they will not be bothered. Unbelievable. :furious:

It has finally hit "Middle America". Can't be ignored anymore, kwim? I started this huge rant of a post about society today blah blah blah but thought better of it and I'll just leave it at that LOL.

OneLostGrl
07-02-2010, 09:40 PM
So true. Now we read in a letter that CA considers Caylee to be "their salvation" whatever that means - does it mean they have called out to Christ due to Caylee's premature death?

Another peculiar comment imo is when KC said to her parents during a jail visit that Caylee WAS the best of all of us. Now assuming Caylee was created by one of Casey's eggs and an unknown sperm donor - that sperm donor would have contributed to the person known as Caylee. Yet they are a unit unto themselves. I find that odd indeed.

I'd bet Cindy knows who the father is and ADVISED Casey to keep him off the birth cert (but that's just me and my mindset about a "Cindy") They have to remain a clan

OneLostGrl
07-02-2010, 09:42 PM
The majority of cindy's guilt I believe is not that KC hurt Caylee but that she is so relieved the misbehaving daughter is out of her home . KC in jail is its own relief.

Amen Sharpar!

OneLostGrl
07-02-2010, 09:46 PM
This is an article about Joran Van der Sloot but I thought the information applied to Casey's background as well.

Very interesting article by forensic psychologist Dr. Stephen Diamond:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201006/was-natalee-holloway-the-victim-vicious-serial-killer?page=2



I gotta tell you, this quote is perfect!

countzero
07-02-2010, 09:50 PM
So true. Now we read in a letter that CA considers Caylee to be "their salvation" whatever that means - does it mean they have called out to Christ due to Caylee's premature death?

Another peculiar comment imo is when KC said to her parents during a jail visit that Caylee WAS the best of all of us. Now assuming Caylee was created by one of Casey's eggs and an unknown sperm don that sperm donor would have contributed to the person known as Caylee. Yet they are a unit unto themselves. I find that odd indeed.

It has finally hit "Middle America". Can't be ignored anymore, kwim? I started this huge rant of a post about society today blah blah blah but thought better of it and I'll just leave it at that LOL.
You can bet my last dollar that both CA and ICA know who the birth father is. CA DID NOT want him or anyone else to know. If that became known CA would lost control over ICA as well as Caylee. And CA wouldn't have had any of that, losing control.

texaslb218
07-02-2010, 09:56 PM
This is o/t but I have to express this. I had truTV on to watch the emergency hearing. Afterward a program came on about young women who abandon their newborn babies in garbage cans and along the roadside.

Texas alone had thirteen abandoned babies found dead (last year? - not sure the dates). A woman in California (Farris or Harris?) is so saddened by this common occurrence that she bought forty burial plots to give the abandoned babies a proper burial. She names the babies, puts them in a tiny white casket and buries them with crosses and names listing where they were found. She has purchased forty more plots but hopes they remain empty.

I never knew this was such a common occurrence. It's shocking. We discuss how KC went seven months with nobody commenting and ignoring that she was pregnant. Evidently this happens all the time because the girls who are abandoning their babies would have to offer an explanation to somebody one would think about where their baby is after it is born. :waitasec:
Many people are eager/desperate to adopt and this is still happening.

The woman in California is working on a safe haven law (which I think exists in some places) so that a birth mother cannot be prosecuted for dropping the baby at a safe place according to baby abandonment laws.

Apparently there are hundreds of people out there that are capable of tossing their offspring into the garbage so they will not be bothered. Unbelievable. :furious:


Texas has had this safe haven law for some years. Just FYI.

OneLostGrl
07-02-2010, 10:47 PM
You can bet my last dollar that both CA and ICA know who the birth father is. CA DID NOT want him or anyone else to know. If that became known CA would lost control over ICA as well as Caylee. And CA wouldn't have had any of that, losing control.

What's your thinking on the allegation that she was seen mouthing "I love you" to her mom today? To me it seems George is for the first time ever not in court and all of a sudden Casey is acknowledging her mother with "I love you's".

Aedrys
07-02-2010, 11:22 PM
Hello WS :)

I was thinking about DC and how Cindy sent him into the woods looking for Caylee. Cindy even told LE, "I had some people out there searching"(paraphrased).

I would love for DC to confirm(at trial)for us that Cindy did indeed send him out to the woods off of Suburban. I think that act is the strongest(but goodness not the only!) reason I see Cindy is as sly as a fox and not in any kind of denial.

Cindy told several of Casey's friends that Casey wasn't to be trusted, even going so far as to call Casey a "sociopath." Why would Cindy use that term(besides the fact that she is a cold and punishing mother)? Being a nurse she has extra education behind using a word like that...

I have stated that I thought George and Cindy knew Casey was weak, but I thought they could have never thought Casey would kill or hurt Caylee...

I think I am changing my mind. Cindy had to have seen Casey be a "bad" mother and not just the going out...that is why she asked Casey, "what have you done?"

When my sister's fiance's parents came to visit to meet my parents, my mother told them all kinds of bad things about my sister to their faces. She let them know all kinds of negative things about my sister...but she never called her a "sociopath."

As with AVS and Scott Peterson's parents...there seems to be a dynamic where the parents are/have to be aware of what their child is...yet they defend the child should anyone else also figure out what their child is...

Maybe something like that....

But, Cindy could not have been in denial...imo or she never could have sent DC into the woods to look for "Caylee", as in an "alive" Caylee...she had to have sent him there to see if that is where Casey had put her. Cindy either heard though a "daisy chain" or she just knew her "sociopathic" daughter well enough to listen to what even the neighbors were saying: if Casey killed Caylee she put her in the woods. (per the Bailey's, Kio Marie, and other neighbors and people that had known Casey when she was younger.)

None of these people really seemed surprised that Casey was accused of killing her daughter and went right away into where they thought she would put her daughter. Annie Dowling felt that ("if") Casey had killed Caylee she had to have had help, Cindy made the same statement at one time. Very telling, imo.

...js...

I totally agree with this. Cindy fully knew what Casey was capable of. She just hoped beyond hope Casey wouldn't go as far as she did. I mean, why say something like "We've lost her" to George right after she found out about Caylee being missing? That was such an odd thing for her to say if she really thought Casey was innocent and not capable of killing Caylee. Instead, it was like her worst fears about Casey had been confirmed, that she was capable of murder to exact revenge on Cindy.

I do think Cindy feels guilt, not over Caylee (because she's not the one who did the actual deed, nor could she have predicted the exact moment Casey would do something like this), but over the fact that she should have stopped Casey a long time ago. She feels guilt that she let the situation get out of control so much that Caylee lost her life. She feels guilt over the fact that she ignored her gut instincts about Casey for so long to keep up the image of perfection that it cost Caylee her life.

kushka
07-02-2010, 11:25 PM
What's your thinking on the allegation that she was seen mouthing "I love you" to her mom today? To me it seems George is for the first time ever not in court and all of a sudden Casey is acknowledging her mother with "I love you's".

I was just reading the "2010.07.02 Actual Emergency Hearing Thread" and in post 422 CentralFLMama - who was at the hearing stated:

I assume Cindy mouthed "I love you" because Casey mouthed something back. I dont know what it was, but it wasnt I love you.

I wish I knew exactly what Casey really said -

countzero
07-03-2010, 10:00 AM
What's your thinking on the allegation that she was seen mouthing "I love you" to her mom today? To me it seems George is for the first time ever not in court and all of a sudden Casey is acknowledging her mother with "I love you's".

Dang it, I had a reply typed out on my iPad and then lost it when I hit another button in error.

Anyhow, My beliefs about the alleged "love you"s are really "F" you's. By the A clan standards mind you. When you mouth the words "I love you" and "F you" they are similar, especially when one is not directly face to face with the other. Even if the are mouthing "love you", it isn't for what we would use it for. These people do not know nor understand the universal meanings of love that we communicate with. They manipulate what we take for granted for their own usage. Which is why most people cannot/will not comprehend their destructive behaviors.

CA must maintain her appearance to the media. It is survival for her to perform these motions, even though they are foreign to her to use. She adapts to the part she must play. Again keep in mind, there isn't anyone who is guiding her for she will have no part of being told what or how to do anything. When ICA is found quilty, CA will shift her appearance to becoming a martyr for Caylee. She has already told us this. And she is so ill equipped to play this part. But she will give it her all ..... doomed to fail before she even begins.

ICA, oh boy, she just doesn't give a dang. She is so into where she thinks she is at, a level where people are finally giving her the attention she so thrives on. Attention she never got from CA/GA/LA. She has people who dote on her day and night. She has people, her team, who she can sit and shoot the bull with for a few stolen minutes out of her environment of an enclosed yet in total view of her daily habits. I would put the size in of her cell, but ya'll get my drift. SMALL, REALLY-really-small.

GA, now I wish people would give up on GA owning up to his part in Caylee's murder. This will NOT happen. Neither will LA.

One can't complain that GA isn't in court and then blast GA for not working. Let the man work and earn some $$$. On another thread, I brought this up and the question was asked about CAs disability running out this year. I don't have the mental challenge today to look, so hopefully someone will remember the month we discovered this. Anyhow, I do believe it is in the fall when the two years are up.

Woe.be.gone
07-03-2010, 05:04 PM
I'd bet Cindy knows who the father is and ADVISED Casey to keep him off the birth cert (but that's just me and my mindset about a "Cindy") They have to remain a clan

I've never believed for one minute that CA doesn't know who the father is - just hearing her musical stories tells me that she knows.

Woe.be.gone
07-03-2010, 05:15 PM
Texas has had this safe haven law for some years. Just FYI.

Texas needs to advertise! :crazy:
I'm not sure when the show* I watched was made - maybe it is already several years old. It came on at 2PM central yesterday - right after In Session. We had to put those new cable boxes on our T.V.s (it was a nightmare; we're stupid) and now my TIVO box isn't connected. Usually I just hit "guide" and can see show info, upcoming shows, shows from yesterday, etc. I'm so lost - ha!

*I found some info on the show: The Investigators, Abandoned at Birth. I think the show first aired in 2001. California's law went into effect in 2001.
Guess what else? A woman who abandoned three babies in eleven month intervals (the first two lived) last name is 'Ortiz'. Isn't that weird?

http://www.ehow.com/about_5427439_child-abandonment-laws.html
This article states that Nebraska was the last state to enact this law in 2008.

ynotdivein
07-18-2010, 11:56 PM
This is random but one archetypal story that keeps popping up in my mind as we keep inching closer to justice for Caylee is that of Athena and Medusa, the two women in whose war Caylee was caught....

Athena was a daughter of Zeus and is sometimes seen as the warrior-woman; for Jungian psychologists she represents the rational, law-abiding, perfectionist and driven side of the feminine. Her mother is Metis (thought) and she herself represents wisdom... And yet....

Medusa was one of three beautiful virgin sisters (also the only mortal of the three) who tended Athena's temple. The sea god Poseidon seduced Medusa and they made love in Athena's temple, thereby arousing Athena's jealous rage. Athena, never one to let a slight pass without punishment, laid a curse on Medusa: she would forever have scaly skin, snakes for hair, and a gaze that would forevermore turn men to stone.

From here I will turn it over to a site that says it much better than me:

http://www.ejop.org/archives/2007/05/the_archetypal_1.html

"Not satisfied with turning beautiful Medusa into a feared and ugly monster, Athena then sends Perseus to behead this Gorgon and bring back her head. To avoid looking at Medusa, Perseus sights her in Athena’s polished bronze shield, using it as a mirror. He cuts off Medusa's head and takes it back to Athena, who puts the snaky head on her aegis (goatskin shield) in order to ward off enemies. Perseus, a heroic figure who slays the demon, can be interpreted also as Athena’s animus, in that he mediates between her conscious ego and the underworld of her unconscious.

Using Athena’s bronze shield as a mirror turns Medusa into a mirror image of Athena – the Looking Glass image, or the opposite. Athena is consciousness (the mind, thought); Medusa is the unconscious (instinct, feeling, body). Medusa's qualities are non-rational, not within the control of the conscious mind, and can threaten to destroy/disturb the integrity of or paralyse the conscious mind if not incorporated in the right way.

Looking straight into the face of the opposite is crippling, as Psyche finds out when she turns on the light and looks at Eros (Morford & Lenardon, 2003, p.195). Psyche and Eros get along well until she shines a light on the unconscious drive, and then it becomes crippled, or at least wounded, and the relationship founders. These myths imply that the non-rational has a life of its own and cannot be controlled by the conscious intellect without negative results, but should be left alone to complement the conscious attitude."

Much more at link above, psychonauts! Sleuth away!

5stars
07-20-2010, 07:35 AM
After watching the hearing on 7-15-10 this family thinks they are a royal family. Nothing they say or do should be questioned by us common folks!I just don't get them.

Mrs G Norris
07-20-2010, 08:13 AM
I read something today on the difference between narcissists and psychopaths. The narcissist loves to see 'mirroring' or someone taking on their traits in order to flatter them, such as a fawning friend would do, this satisfies the narcissist, and they keep that fawning friend around as an ego boost, and to show others that they are worth idolatry. But a psychopath can't stand that, they find such mirroring antagonising, and lash out at people who fawn after them.

Now I'm wondering if Caylee's natural instinct as a child to 'mirror' her mother, to adore her, and take on her traits was just one more reason for Casey to become infuriated with her. And this is why Casey's psychopathy itself was enough to cause the death of Caylee.

countzero
07-23-2010, 01:18 PM
After reading the thread about will Caylee's bio father be named at trial, I am now thinkin' about past cryptic comments made, not lies, but the comments the A clan said to ICA during their brief jail visits.

Lee asks ICA, "is this like before" .... GA and CA are discussing with ICA her meetings with "doctors" and ask if she disclosed her feelings, everything ??? and ICA replied, paraphrased here "no, I didn't say anything".

I think ICA may have had a prior pregnancy to Caylee. ICA could have had a miscarriage, got rid of it with help. Or she may have had a stillbirth or difficult birth and the infant passed and she got rid of it with help. Nothing beyond reality for this to have occurred in the A compound.

I don't believe any of the abuse allegations made by ICA, NONE. ICA only used it as a means of attracting attention to herself. The exact same way CA had her pity party sessions with her former co-workers. That is what I have seen in the sociopaths/narcissistic personalities in my extended family.

Always drama, drama and more drama. Self-created drama, which doesn't exist, to elicit a response to be the center of attention.

This A clan unit is so full of secrets, that I seriously doubt they all will be revealed and no one will know the extent of their history of secrecy.

lala
07-23-2010, 01:56 PM
I totally agree with this. Cindy fully knew what Casey was capable of. She just hoped beyond hope Casey wouldn't go as far as she did. I mean, why say something like "We've lost her" to George right after she found out about Caylee being missing? That was such an odd thing for her to say if she really thought Casey was innocent and not capable of killing Caylee. Instead, it was like her worst fears about Casey had been confirmed, that she was capable of murder to exact revenge on Cindy.

I do think Cindy feels guilt, not over Caylee (because she's not the one who did the actual deed, nor could she have predicted the exact moment Casey would do something like this), but over the fact that she should have stopped Casey a long time ago. She feels guilt that she let the situation get out of control so much that Caylee lost her life. She feels guilt over the fact that she ignored her gut instincts about Casey for so long to keep up the image of perfection that it cost Caylee her life.

I agree with both of you except for one thing...I don't think Cindy feels guilt at all. I think she is humiliated that her family is being seen with all their dysfunctions...but guilt? No way. If she felt guilt she would have stopped this a long time ago...she would come clean about what she knows and ask ICA to do the same thing. True guilt would force her to rectify wrongs....neither are willing to do that.

doogiesgirl
07-23-2010, 04:54 PM
"We are like the same little person"

-Casey


I found this comment by KC to her parents very strange. I just cannot imagine saying to my parents (about one of my children) "we are like the same little person". It was almost as if KC wanted to take Caylee's place in her parents eyes. Like she wanted to let them know...hey I can fill that void that Caylees left, just give me the chance to do it. We can just erase her from our memories if you guys will just get with my program! It really conveys just how deluded KC's thinking was/is. And really, how jealous KC was of the love/attention her parents gave to Caylee.

This behavior was first seen in CA in the LE/FBI interview tapes where she can't quite keep a clear separation between herself & KC(they keep asking questions about KC's mothering of Caylee and CA answers them with how she mothered KC). Then we see KC making this statement about herself & Caylee being "like the same little person". Neither of them quite "get" that Caylee wasn't a second KC, a second chance at a do-over at raising KC. Nor do they get that Caylee was unique, her own soul, her own individual. It was just a strange remark for KC to make IMO.

MOO

OneLostGrl
07-23-2010, 05:54 PM
I found this comment by KC to her parents very strange. I just cannot imagine saying to my parents (about one of my children) "we are like the same little person". It was almost as if KC wanted to take Caylee's place in her parents eyes. Like she wanted to let them know...hey I can fill that void that Caylees left, just give me the chance to do it. We can just erase her from our memories if you guys will just get with my program! It really conveys just how deluded KC's thinking was/is. And really, how jealous KC was of the love/attention her parents gave to Caylee.

This behavior was first seen in CA in the LE/FBI interview tapes where she can't quite keep a clear separation between herself & KC(they keep asking questions about KC's mothering of Caylee and CA answers them with how she mothered KC). Then we see KC making this statement about herself & Caylee being "like the same little person". Neither of them quite "get" that Caylee wasn't a second KC, a second chance at a do-over at raising KC. Nor do they get that Caylee was unique, her own soul, her own individual. It was just a strange remark for KC to make IMO.

MOO

The lack of boundries in this kind of family is scary. They really have no sense of self- the people they "love" define them. They take you over- your life, your sense of self.. everything. You are, in their head, an extention of them. Cindy woulda done the same thing to Caylee. No doubt in my mind!

An example of the "you are just a little me"

When I was about 21ish my step father came and asked to kiss me.. a "real kiss" he said.. because he thought he may be in love with me and felt he needs to know for sure and a kiss could tell him. I freaked out- like big time. I went to my mom and told her- she said "Well, he's just confused because you are just a younger me.. let him do it and get it over with.. it means nothing. don't worrry about it, Laura..".

I mean who thinks like that?! The people we love do not belong to us, ya know?

Woe.be.gone
07-24-2010, 12:28 AM
The lack of boundries in this kind of family is scary. They really have no sense of self- the people they "love" define them. They take you over- your life, your sense of self.. everything. You are, in their head, an extention of them. Cindy woulda done the same thing to Caylee. No doubt in my mind!

An example of the "you are just a little me"

When I was about 21ish my step father came and asked to kiss me.. a "real kiss" he said.. because he thought he may be in love with me and felt he needs to know for sure and a kiss could tell him. I freaked out- like big time. I went to my mom and told her- she said "Well, he's just confused because you are just a younger me.. let him do it and get it over with.. it means nothing. don't worrry about it, Laura..".

I mean who thinks like that?! The people we love do not belong to us, ya know?

So did you kick him in the b*lls instead?

Strange reaction from mom there. I wonder what causes some people to not recognize that their children are their own persons? I know you and your mom have made progress so, I'm curious, if you discussed this with her now would she get that her reaction back then was inappropriate? What about how it made you feel?

I'm old enough to be your mom yet we have a same age child. I wish I could hug you now and protect you (even though I know you've got it covered).

OneLostGrl
07-24-2010, 02:36 AM
So did you kick him in the b*lls instead?

Strange reaction from mom there. I wonder what causes some people to not recognize that their children are their own persons? I know you and your mom have made progress so, I'm curious, if you discussed this with her now would she get that her reaction back then was inappropriate? What about how it made you feel?

I'm old enough to be your mom yet we have a same age child. I wish I could hug you now and protect you (even though I know you've got it covered).

You are sweet :blowkiss:

We have discussed it and she still doesn't see it the way a normal person would.. though she does recognize that it's not normal. IMO the cause has a lot to do with the fact that they really do not have any sense of "self" and are so afraid of losing people they love that they take parts of them to "keep" with them just in case they are left.. but they eventually take too much of 'em to fill in the holes in themselves. So the lines get blurred and they just don't see themselves as seperate beings anymore. "I want this so you must too.. I like this so you must too.. why wouldn't you, we are the same."

Chiquita71
07-24-2010, 02:40 PM
I agree with both of you except for one thing...I don't think Cindy feels guilt at all. I think she is humiliated that her family is being seen with all their dysfunctions...but guilt? No way. If she felt guilt she would have stopped this a long time ago...she would come clean about what she knows and ask ICA to do the same thing. True guilt would force her to rectify wrongs....neither are willing to do that.

Respectfully Quoted lala :)

And, I will agree right back at you. You are right, Cindy does not really feel any true guilt or she would act completely different. I know what you are saying, if she felt guilt like (if I may be so bold to speak for you) :blushing: you or I would feel she would want to come clean. If I felt guilt I couldn't stand to live with myself, and when you feel that way(meaning you are a person who takes responsibility for existing in the world) you usually do not find yourself in Cindy's position because you avoid doing things you would feel guilty about in the first place.

It is my own guilt at wondering if I am judging "these people" and I am being somehow a bad person and causing them more pain. You know, what separates me from Cindy and Casey? They sure think what they think is right, I don't want to be like that: blind. I give too much benefit of the doubt but my real feelings are: I feel they have no feelings for anyone but themselves. My true feelings are: Cindy has never felt guilty about anything in her life and is incapable. So, I do agree with ye. :)

Casey blames Cindy and Cindy blames Casey and neither one of them cares or cared about Caylee. The same dynamic we are seeing since it all went down is the same, imo that has always been going on. None of the Anthony's behavior is because of what happened, it is just the same behavior they have always had and it is what made it all happen. All of them. Together.

In my world view these are cosmic lessons we all are seeing unfold. Casey draws to herself the defense she has because she and her family have been on a path just like we are all on a path...I am happy I am on my path and some of my "gentleness" with them is partly out of just being so glad I am not them. :innocent:

Call it psychological or "spiritual/religious" based some people have a belief in a need to take care of their immortal soul. I am not trying to be religious, because really I call this just being a good person. From that perspective(anyone coming from that perspective)knows that Cindy does not really feel guilt. Psychologically, Cindy may feel guilt but have such a personality disorder that all she can do is push the responsibility off on others. I think psychologically, Casey never even comes close to even almost feeling that any thing is her fault or feeling anything remotely close to guilt.

I don't know which bothers me more? Cindy because she seems like she has some skills to "know better"(I suppose because she has not actually killed anyone)or Casey who is so cold she probably never had nor has any true loving emotions: which causes a lot of feelings of revulsion and (sorry) hate for her. Of course I feel the same about Cindy as soon as I hear her speak or read her words. :furious:

I hope in my rambling you can tell I understand what you are saying and I agree. :)

:twocents:

Chiquita71
07-24-2010, 03:02 PM
The lack of boundries in this kind of family is scary. They really have no sense of self- the people they "love" define them. They take you over- your life, your sense of self.. everything. You are, in their head, an extention of them. Cindy woulda done the same thing to Caylee. No doubt in my mind!

An example of the "you are just a little me"

When I was about 21ish my step father came and asked to kiss me.. a "real kiss" he said.. because he thought he may be in love with me and felt he needs to know for sure and a kiss could tell him. I freaked out- like big time. I went to my mom and told her- she said "Well, he's just confused because you are just a younger me.. let him do it and get it over with.. it means nothing. don't worrry about it, Laura..".

I mean who thinks like that?! The people we love do not belong to us, ya know?

Respectfully Quoted OneLostGrl :blowkiss:

Whoa! I am sorry grl, that your mother could say that and think that way and act that way toward you! And, your step father, what an awful man! I wish I had something deep and profound to say, but I am going to have to process that happening to you. I can only imagine what you have had to do to be able to process that! :hug:

Simple "day to day" people are secretly nutso, and only the family members that are not nutso know about it. They are damaging on such a personal level. It's emotional molestation. I said it before in a post regarding something else, but I see it as the same here too. Molesters can't be seeing other people as others to be able to hurt them like that, same with anyone hurting anyone. The next awful level of abuse and hurt is murder, so if it is anything under that I put it on the same level as sexual abuse, i.e. molestation, incest, rape.

Thank you for sharing OneLostGrl. Your sharing helps me too and I am sure, others. The others you are very aware of...even when there are those that are not. :blowkiss:

:cow:

logicalgirl
07-24-2010, 03:13 PM
What's your thinking on the allegation that she was seen mouthing "I love you" to her mom today? To me it seems George is for the first time ever not in court and all of a sudden Casey is acknowledging her mother with "I love you's".

Oh - hmm - let me see - say, wasn't that just the hearing before we all heard that Cindy was going to testify about the 911 calls?

Gosh, must just have been a co-in-hinky-dink! But I don't believe I saw ICA mouthing "I Love You" to mommy dearest just after she testified. :waitasec:

joypath
07-24-2010, 04:46 PM
This is o/t but I have to express this. I had truTV on to watch the emergency hearing. Afterward a program came on about young women who abandon their newborn babies in garbage cans and along the roadside.

Texas alone had thirteen abandoned babies found dead (last year? - not sure the dates). A woman in California (Farris or Harris?) is so saddened by this common occurrence that she bought forty burial plots to give the abandoned babies a proper burial. She names the babies, puts them in a tiny white casket and buries them with crosses and names listing where they were found. She has purchased forty more plots but hopes they remain empty.

I never knew this was such a common occurrence. It's shocking. We discuss how KC went seven months with nobody commenting and ignoring that she was pregnant. Evidently this happens all the time because the girls who are abandoning their babies would have to offer an explanation to somebody one would think about where their baby is after it is born. :waitasec:
Many people are eager/desperate to adopt and this is still happening.

The woman in California is working on a safe haven law (which I think exists in some places) so that a birth mother cannot be prosecuted for dropping the baby at a safe place according to baby abandonment laws.

Apparently there are hundreds of people out there that are capable of tossing their offspring into the garbage so they will not be bothered. Unbelievable. :furious:

Just ventured into this thread, thought about "snipping" your post W.B.G for brevity & yelled out loud in an empty office: :furious:HECK NO!:furious: THIS IS ON THE MONEY FACTUAL! Welcome to my little secret corner of the world, the corner where almost everybody plays "sweep it under the carpet", don't upset the nice taxpayers, the only time these atrocities really make the news is when it's a S L O W news day or a PC victim, extra special heinous case, leaked to the press,caught by a rookie LE/DA/Public defender. There is almost nothing worse than performing an autopsy on a body that doesn't even take up 1/10 of the morgue table, except maybe realizing that the perp was the victim's FAMILY member! UGH! And then the system rolls in and figures out how to devalue the victim again by bargaining with the perp because the courts are so overloaded/houses of incarceration overcrowded/psych. facilities overwhelmed....C'est la vie!:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Patriciao
07-24-2010, 05:21 PM
The lack of boundries in this kind of family is scary. They really have no sense of self- the people they "love" define them. They take you over- your life, your sense of self.. everything. You are, in their head, an extention of them. Cindy woulda done the same thing to Caylee. No doubt in my mind!

An example of the "you are just a little me"

When I was about 21ish my step father came and asked to kiss me.. a "real kiss" he said.. because he thought he may be in love with me and felt he needs to know for sure and a kiss could tell him. I freaked out- like big time. I went to my mom and told her- she said "Well, he's just confused because you are just a younger me.. let him do it and get it over with.. it means nothing. don't worrry about it, Laura..".

I mean who thinks like that?! The people we love do not belong to us, ya know?

Gosh girl, my sympathy to you on having such a wacky mother and stepfather!!!! It's not your fault and I sincerely hope that you are ok and live your life without their involvement. I do not think I could have ever forgiven them for this unless they both sought therapy and realized what they had done and apologized from the depths of their despair at their wrongdoing.

Patriciao
07-24-2010, 05:40 PM
when lee asked Casey 'is this like last time?' I think Casey must have taken off with Caylee once before.

Woe.be.gone
07-25-2010, 01:33 PM
This case is eating me up. I can't quit thinking about it. Round and round in my head the different scenarios go. I must be a narcissist because I find myself thinking that I may be able to uncover the answers as to why this happened to sweet Caylee.

It's upsetting to contemplate the behaviors that some grown-ups inflict upon their children and the people they say they love. When you think about it, something must of gone wrong when they were children too but not necessarily (experts disagree about what causes certain behaviors).

When a particular member of a family breaks away from whatever the sickness is, looks themself straight on in the mirror and says 'I want to heal and I'm willing to do the work' it amazes me. First, how and why did the light come on? Where did they get the strength to confront the inner workings of the viscious cycle - like breaking out of the grips of a tornado broken but able to put yourself back together at least partially. Then that success is told to your children and they are amazed and glean strength from your story and hopefully pass it on.

Honesty, awareness, breaking thru pride, owning yourself are good traits/actions that aid in healing those who are broken. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a magic pill for this? The 'get it together' pill?

Studing this case has opened my eyes to many things/ailments I did not have an understanding of and I'm not convinced that's a good thing as they say ignorance is bliss. A concept I find myself pondering is, with all the possibilities there are for unhealthy conditions that afflict people, who is 'normal'? The answer may be based upon the degree of infliction a person and/or a family suffers. For instance when does having true self esteem cross over into narcissism - a condition caused by masking the fact that your self esteem is really fragile - a defense mechanism of sorts. How can we teach self awareness, promote self esteem without causing a person to focus on theirself versus thinking of others over theirself? In our success oriented culture, how do you guide a child to be prepared to make a living, become independent without playing to their strengths? If you play to their strengths too much do they then become conceited? When your world revolves around your child how can you be sure he/she doesn't know it? The more I think about this stuff, the more confused I get. If anybody figures it out, please let me know - ha!

Woe.be.gone
07-25-2010, 05:40 PM
OLG and/or anybody who knows ~ can you give an example of what splitting looks like in real life? The explanation within the link I'm providing gets very confusing. I can't quite picture this - what might a person who does this say/act like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Thank you.

This next link begins to break it down to allow for better understanding - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation


Reality testing is one function of the Ego it is defined as, 'The ego's capacity to distinguish what is occurring in one's own mind from what is occurring in the external world.
It is perhaps the single most important ego funcion because it is necessary for negotiating with the outside world.'

IMO CA and KC both have trouble with reality testing. CA is in another reality altogether as far as the circumstances surrounding the case. KC, for instance, had already imagined herself married to TL after having known him for only four weeks. Plus the whole idea that KC had a job the two plus years after Caylee was born. We could think of many examples where they don't seem connected to the reality of what is going on.

Defense functioning is another function of the ego and entails 'initial defenses develop in infancy and involve the boundary between the self and the outer world; they are considered primitive defenses and include projection, denial, and splitting. ...

Synthesis is then supposed to be the final function but doesn't always occur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_psychology

lala
07-25-2010, 11:58 PM
Respectfully Quoted lala :)

And, I will agree right back at you. You are right, Cindy does not really feel any true guilt or she would act completely different. I know what you are saying, if she felt guilt like (if I may be so bold to speak for you) :blushing: you or I would feel she would want to come clean. If I felt guilt I couldn't stand to live with myself, and when you feel that way(meaning you are a person who takes responsibility for existing in the world) you usually do not find yourself in Cindy's position because you avoid doing things you would feel guilty about in the first place.

It is my own guilt at wondering if I am judging "these people" and I am being somehow a bad person and causing them more pain. You know, what separates me from Cindy and Casey? They sure think what they think is right, I don't want to be like that: blind. I give too much benefit of the doubt but my real feelings are: I feel they have no feelings for anyone but themselves. My true feelings are: Cindy has never felt guilty about anything in her life and is incapable. So, I do agree with ye. :)

Casey blames Cindy and Cindy blames Casey and neither one of them cares or cared about Caylee. The same dynamic we are seeing since it all went down is the same, imo that has always been going on. None of the Anthony's behavior is because of what happened, it is just the same behavior they have always had and it is what made it all happen. All of them. Together.

In my world view these are cosmic lessons we all are seeing unfold. Casey draws to herself the defense she has because she and her family have been on a path just like we are all on a path...I am happy I am on my path and some of my "gentleness" with them is partly out of just being so glad I am not them. :innocent:

Call it psychological or "spiritual/religious" based some people have a belief in a need to take care of their immortal soul. I am not trying to be religious, because really I call this just being a good person. From that perspective(anyone coming from that perspective)knows that Cindy does not really feel guilt. Psychologically, Cindy may feel guilt but have such a personality disorder that all she can do is push the responsibility off on others. I think psychologically, Casey never even comes close to even almost feeling that any thing is her fault or feeling anything remotely close to guilt.

I don't know which bothers me more? Cindy because she seems like she has some skills to "know better"(I suppose because she has not actually killed anyone)or Casey who is so cold she probably never had nor has any true loving emotions: which causes a lot of feelings of revulsion and (sorry) hate for her. Of course I feel the same about Cindy as soon as I hear her speak or read her words. :furious:

I hope in my rambling you can tell I understand what you are saying and I agree. :)

:twocents:

I can tell...and you stated it beautifully!!!!

OneLostGrl
07-26-2010, 01:59 AM
OLG and/or anybody who knows ~ can you give an example of what splitting looks like in real life? The explanation within the link I'm providing gets very confusing. I can't quite picture this - what might a person who does this say/act like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Thank you.

This next link begins to break it down to allow for better understanding - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation


Reality testing is one function of the Ego it is defined as, 'The ego's capacity to distinguish what is occurring in one's own mind from what is occurring in the external world.
It is perhaps the single most important ego funcion because it is necessary for negotiating with the outside world.'

IMO CA and KC both have trouble with reality testing. CA is in another reality altogether as far as the circumstances surrounding the case. KC, for instance, had already imagined herself married to TL after having known him for only four weeks. Plus the whole idea the KC had a job the two plus years after Caylee was born. We could think of many examples where they don't seem connected to the reality of what is going on.

Defense functioning is another function of the ego and entails 'initial defenses develop in infancy and involve the boundary between the self and the outer world; they are considered primitive defenses and include projection, denial, and splitting. ...

Synthesis is then supposed to be the final function but doesn't always occur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_psychology

Like when Cindy is angry with Casey she tells her friends she is a sociopath, that they had better have a lot of money cuz she'll steal it from them... she steals from her own parents. Then when she is not angry with her she is the worlds best mother, Casey didn't steal the money, Cindy gave it to her, that Casey never even cashed the "birthday check". etc etc. The person becomes all good or all bad.. they love you or they hate you.. and that love/hate/good/bad thing can switch back and forth from hour to hour or day to day. The thing/ behavior they hated yesterday they may idealize tomorrow. It's very confusing and many people who "love" a splitter learn to stop having their own opinion, their own emotions, feelings, ideas and values because they have been devalued so often it stops being worth it.

Example-

When I was a kid and would get sick I'd never know if my mother would comfort me (to the extent of smothering at times) or scream at me that I was faking and just trying to screw up her day. Each time i got sick her reaction would be different, I'd be her poor, beautiful sick child or her selfish, lying brat.

ETA- IMO the reason Casey attaches herself to people so quickly is because all she has ever known about love is EXTREME.. all consuming, no boundries, taking on the others ideals and likes/dislikes, becoming a part of the person they "love". Nothing less has ever been acceptable.

OneLostGrl
07-26-2010, 02:19 AM
This case is eating me up. I can't quit thinking about it. Round and round in my head the different scenarios go. I must be a narcissist because I find myself thinking that I may be able to uncover the answers as to why this happened to sweet Caylee.

It's upsetting to contemplate the behaviors that some grown-ups inflict upon their children and the people they say they love. When you think about it, something must of gone wrong when they were children too but not necessarily (experts disagree about what causes certain behaviors).

When a particular member of a family breaks away from whatever the sickness is, looks themself straight on in the mirror and says 'I want to heal and I'm willing to do the work' it amazes me. First, how and why did the light come on? Where did they get the strength to confront the inner workings of the viscious cycle - like breaking out of the grips of a tornado broken but able to put yourself back together at least partially. Then that success is told to your children and they are amazed and glean strength from your story and hopefully pass it on.

Honesty, awareness, breaking thru pride, owning yourself are good traits/actions that aid in healing those who are broken. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a magic pill for this? The 'get it together' pill?

Studing this case has opened my eyes to many things/ailments I did not have an understanding of and I'm not convinced that's a good thing as they say ignorance is bliss. A concept I find myself pondering is, with all the possibilities there are for unhealthy conditions that afflict people, who is 'normal'? The answer may be based upon the degree of infliction a person and/or a family suffers. For instance when does having true self esteem cross over into narcissism - a condition caused by masking the fact that your self esteem is really fragile - a defense mechanism of sorts. How can we teach self awareness, promote self esteem without causing a person to focus on theirself versus thinking of others over theirself? In our success oriented culture, how do you guide a child to be prepared to make a living, become independent without playing to their strengths? If you play to their strengths too much do they then become conceited? When your world revolves around your child how can you be sure he/she doesn't know it? The more I think about this stuff, the more confused I get. If anybody figures it out, please let me know - ha!

Everyone has some of the traits, even "normal" people. When it becomes pervasive and pathological is when it becomes unhealthy .

countzero
07-26-2010, 10:53 AM
Everyone has some of the traits, even "normal" people. When it becomes pervasive and pathological is when it becomes unhealthy .

Top post of this thread. Your ONE sentence sums it up totally. Thank you.

Woe.be.gone
07-26-2010, 04:09 PM
Like when Cindy is angry with Casey she tells her friends she is a sociopath, that they had better have a lot of money cuz she'll steal it from them... she steals from her own parents. Then when she is not angry with her she is the worlds best mother, Casey didn't steal the money, Cindy gave it to her, that Casey never even cashed the "birthday check". etc etc. The person becomes all good or all bad.. they love you or they hate you.. and that love/hate/good/bad thing can switch back and forth from hour to hour or day to day. The thing/ behavior they hated yesterday they may idealize tomorrow. It's very confusing and many people who "love" a splitter learn to stop having their own opinion, their own emotions, feelings, ideas and values because they have been devalued so often it stops being worth it.

Example-

When I was a kid and would get sick I'd never know if my mother would comfort me (to the extent of smothering at times) or scream at me that I was faking and just trying to screw up her day. Each time i got sick her reaction would be different, I'd be her poor, beautiful sick child or her selfish, lying brat.

ETA- IMO the reason Casey attaches herself to people so quickly is because all she has ever known about love is EXTREME.. all consuming, no boundries, taking on the others ideals and likes/dislikes, becoming a part of the person they "love". Nothing less has ever been acceptable.

Thanks OLG. I was on the right track then because I had thought of that, that is that CA told RP about KC being a Sociopath and it sounded as if CA had come to grips regarding KC's behavior (yet he was conversing happily with KC right around the time Caylee went missing so he didn't take CA's advice) but then in her next breath CA calls KC 'mother of the year'. That would be very confusing to a child to not know what to expect from one day to the next. It would be like walking on eggshells at all times.

So the behavior or reaction the child gets is dependant upon the mother's mood at that time. Whatever the child might be going through (legitimate things) will be received or responded to based on the mood of the mother/person at that time. They are unable to keep you separate - the timing of your illness has nothing to do with what they had planned or were doing that day. So it would feel as if the world is supposed to revolve around them. Heck with you. Eventually you might feel that you have no say/don't matter. Please your mom or look out. The child is not perceived as a separate entity.

A little o/t, I've noticed a phenomenon happening these days - maybe because I'm an older mom and some of my friends kids are young to mid adults already and it's that the kid's time has been so structured by their parents - with good intentions - when they become adults they are having trouble branching out on their own. Like their mom was telling them what to do at every turn (and loving it) and everything seemed fine but then all of a sudden either the mom gets left behind or the child is lost without the mom. I'm not sure if any of the situations I've observed of late would be splitting but it's like the mom has had a script for the child but when the child leans away from the script the mom becomes unnerved. I'll say that a person has to go out on their own, even make some mistakes and find the right fit for theirself. In other words, the mom puts a goal before their child that is really their goal and not the childs. There comes a time when your child might actually know what is best for himself/herself. You have to show that you have faith in that individual person who happens to be your child not run his life for him.

Woe.be.gone
07-26-2010, 04:18 PM
Top post of this thread. Your ONE sentence sums it up totally. Thank you.

I know, OLG has a way of saying good stuff short and sweet.

The only thing is the close to 'normal' ones doubt themselves and the pathological ones seldom think there's anything wrong with them which causes the 'normal' ones to go nuts. :waitasec:

OneLostGrl
07-26-2010, 11:53 PM
Thanks OLG. I was on the right track then because I had thought of that, that is that CA told RP about KC being a Sociopath and it sounded as if CA had come to grips regarding KC's behavior (yet he was conversing happily with KC right around the time Caylee went missing so he didn't take CA's advice) but then in her next breath CA calls KC 'mother of the year'. That would be very confusing to a child to not know what to expect from one day to the next. It would be like walking on eggshells at all times.

So the behavior or reaction the child gets is dependant upon the mother's mood at that time. Whatever the child might be going through (legitimate things) will be received or responded to based on the mood of the mother/person at that time. They are unable to keep you separate - the timing of your illness has nothing to do with what they had planned or were doing that day. So it would feel as if the world is supposed to revolve around them. Heck with you. Eventually you might feel that you have no say/don't matter. Please your mom or look out. The child is not perceived as a separate entity.

A little o/t, I've noticed a phenomenon happening these days - maybe because I'm an older mom and some of my friends kids are young to mid adults already and it's that the kid's time has been so structured by their parents - with good intentions - when they become adults they are having trouble branching out on their own. Like their mom was telling them what to do at every turn (and loving it) and everything seemed fine but then all of a sudden either the mom gets left behind or the child is lost without the mom. I'm not sure if any of the situations I've observed of late would be splitting but it's like the mom has had a script for the child but when the child leans away from the script the mom becomes unnerved. I'll say that a person has to go out on their own, even make some mistakes and find the right fit for theirself. In other words, the mom puts a goal before their child that is really their goal and not the childs. There comes a time when your child might actually know what is best for himself/herself. You have to show that you have faith in that individual person who happens to be your child not run his life for him.

As to your O/T- I think lots of parents go through that- it's tough to let go of your child- it's tough to suddenly be faced with no longer being "mommy" to your child. My son is 16 and I'm going through he!! trying to figure out how far to let go.. (especially because I have no normal to look back at and compare to say "Ok, I should be teaching him how to cook or he should be doing his own laundry, etc). I miss him, being his "mommy" in a way that I can't even begin to find words for and at times I find myself telling him so.. but then I worry that it'll come across as a guilt trip like my mom made me feel when I was growing up so I back off a bit but then I worry that he'll think I don't care. He hates me to hug him and it kills me but then I try to remind myself that when I was 16 I didn't want my mother all touching me either. I used to be an active part of his life and suddenly I'm this woman who is just in his way, treating him "like a little kid". It's their JOB to outgrow us and it's OUR job to let them- regardless of how empty we may feel inside or how unsure we may be of who we are without them taking up every second of our day. I can understand how a parent would have a hard time letting go but I also know first hand what a dis-service it is to hold on too tight. ITA with you that kids must make their own mistakes and we must let them no matter how difficult it may be to watch them fall at times. IMO One of the biggest problems in our society today is over parenting.

OneLostGrl
07-26-2010, 11:56 PM
I know, OLG has a way of saying good stuff short and sweet.

The only thing is the close to 'normal' ones doubt themselves and the pathological ones seldom think there's anything wrong with them which causes the 'normal' ones to go nuts. :waitasec:

"crazy making"

Woe.be.gone
07-27-2010, 01:40 PM
As to your O/T- I think lots of parents go through that- it's tough to let go of your child- it's tough to suddenly be faced with no longer being "mommy" to your child. My son is 16 and I'm going through he!! trying to figure out how far to let go.. (especially because I have no normal to look back at and compare to say "Ok, I should be teaching him how to cook or he should be doing his own laundry, etc). I miss him, being his "mommy" in a way that I can't even begin to find words for and at times I find myself telling him so.. but then I worry that it'll come across as a guilt trip like my mom made me feel when I was growing up so I back off a bit but then I worry that he'll think I don't care. He hates me to hug him and it kills me but then I try to remind myself that when I was 16 I didn't want my mother all touching me either. I used to be an active part of his life and suddenly I'm this woman who is just in his way, treating him "like a little kid". It's their JOB to outgrow us and it's OUR job to let them- regardless of how empty we may feel inside or how unsure we may be of who we are without them taking up every second of our day. I can understand how a parent would have a hard time letting go but I also know first hand what a dis-service it is to hold on too tight. ITA with you that kids must make their own mistakes and we must let them no matter how difficult it may be to watch them fall at times. IMO One of the biggest problems in our society today is over parenting.

Ditto OLG. Mine slipped the other day and said 'I love you' and then quickly added 'just kidding'. Regarding laundry - I'm afraid he'll ruin the machines. Cooking - we've got ramen down - burns the popcorn. Oh and just in case I don't realize it he reminds me that I don't know everything. And I DO know that - ha!

Also I try to remember how I was at 15 and 16 and beyond even - ugh!!!!

The two moms I'm thinking of are great gals, high energy types who just happen to have had kids who easily went along with their suggestions and plans for them. My observation is that it seems that every child/young adult eventually has to break free one way or the other - it is the goal, the role of parents to grow independent adults. That said, teenagers still need a parent but they think they don't. That's why I can be on here so much because I'm able to be home and keep an eye on things but also respond when I'm needed. I think we should be more worried if they weren't separating from us. My little boy is gone but I'm praying he'll become a decent man if the time in between doesn't kill me first.

Chiquita71
08-19-2010, 12:03 PM
Hello WS :cool2:

I'm going to give you my train of thought because I don't know what I am getting at...

Other people have asked this question but: why didn't Casey get rid of Caylee in another manner? Why didn't she give her away?

Because Casey didn't want Cindy to "know"/be right that she was a bad mother. Plus, Cindy wouldn't have let Caylee be taken by another family. And Casey didn't want Caylee but she wanted Cindy to have Caylee even less.

I have wondered, why Casey didn't kill Caylee in more of a manner that would have lent to an "accident?" She could claim to be a grieving mother, get the sympathy and move on...I get that Cindy might have blamed her and still called her a bad mother for an accident, but Cindy was doing that anyway(calling her a bad mom) and again...make it an accident that could have happened to "anybody." Ya know?

What I think my mind is getting at, that I don't want to think about is this: maybe Casey killed Caylee in the manner that she did because she wanted to. I am starting to think that the duct tape and the trunk and the manner in which Caylee was disposed was exactly what Casey thought of Caylee.

I don't think I am the first to think this, but this is the first time I am thinking about this...

The idea that Casey did what she did to Caylee, in the manner that she did because she is a "spiteful *****" was said by Casey herself. I have been of the opinion that she did what she did to Caylee to spite Cindy but Cindy wasn't ever supposed to know about Caylee. Casey seemed like she was just going to go on keeping Cindy and George at bay, was she expecting George and Cindy to accept never seeing Caylee ever again?

After all of that...I still do not know why Casey killed Caylee. I mean I know...she wanted her freedom and she is a narcissist who can't share love or give love to others...

So, back to the "fight" Cindy and Casey had on the 15th. Yeah, there had to have been some things said between Cindy and Casey that led Casey to murder, in a most awful hateful way...Caylee Marie. Thinking about it now, Casey had to have wanted to murder Caylee, not just get rid of her. I agree with the opinion that Casey does not think too far ahead, she was mad at Cindy and hated her control and didn't love Caylee. She could have never loved Caylee to hurt her in that way. Obvious statement, sorry.

I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.

We saw Casey's anger in the jail house video/visit and my guess is Caylee had been physically abused before, the kind of anger Casey vented onto Caylee during her murder did not just appear that day. There is evidence that Casey did searches on her computer that lead one to believe she had a plan to murder before she murdered.

So, Casey had premeditated killing(someone)maybe Cindy? Maybe George and Cindy? Maybe she did think of killing Caylee in a "better" manner, one that would keep Casey "innocent" but then Cindy upped the ante on the 15th, by maybe telling Casey "that's it, were filling for custody." ? Then, Casey had "no choice" as she was heading to stay at TL and he didn't want Caylee around and Casey chose to vent her rage on Caylee.

I am so ready to hear how the SA puts this together, and I am curious as to how a jury will rule in this case. (understatement of the last two years) :crazy:

Okay. Sorry, this is not a point...it is stuff I had to get out of my head. Thanks everyone.

:twocents:

Woe.be.gone
08-19-2010, 02:08 PM
Chiquita ~ what you say here is, like you said, everything I don't want to think, cannot imagine. But other posters, it seems, have been convinced of a version of what happened such as this one for a long time.

I'd like to believe it was an accident that went out of control as GA supposedly said. But then why the duct tape, the abandonment of a little body, the unspeakable way the body was just left for months in the woods, etc. If GA knows more then why wouldn't he spill it?

That said, it's looking more and more like a cold and calculated act that maybe wasn't planned for the day it happened but happened nontheless. Otherwise, why wouldn't someone reveal an alternative version of what happened that would make any sense?

Gaia713
08-19-2010, 02:14 PM
I think deep down Cindy was not happy in any way shape or form how her daughter turned out. I think Cindy looked on Caylee as her (Cindy's) second chance to raise a loveable daughter. I think Cindy regarded Caylee as her (Cindy's) child, never Casey's. And I don't think Cindy wanted to share Caylee with Casey. I think Casey was getting rid of Cindy's "baby," not her own.

That's how I see it anyway.

The motive was not Casey's freedom - the motive was to get back at Cindy.

This is one of the sickest families I have EVER seen. Cindy is obsessed with controlling every situation. Has she ever given an interview with George where she isn't constantly keeping her hand on his body to control his speech. I see George and I think this man is like a ventriloquist dummy. Has anyone else noticed that the only tiome he seems to be honest is when Cindy is not around?

the seeker
08-19-2010, 03:41 PM
Hello WS :cool2:


I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.


:twocents:

In other words it was personal....I agree.

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 05:35 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyhuggingmancloseupJ4CDec172008orlandosentinel. jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover2CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover1CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?

nort
08-19-2010, 05:52 PM
As close as she is to him perhaps she was trying to score some DNA, a loose hair or a clothes fiber for future use. SORRY IMO

ExpectingUnicorns
08-19-2010, 06:05 PM
The only descriptor I could find said, "an unidentified family friend."

http://www.mctdirect.com/photos/searchallphotos.php?query=H3&current=3&traverse=1&channel=2&view=thumb

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 06:08 PM
The only descriptor I could find said, "an unidentified family friend."

http://www.mctdirect.com/photos/searchallphotos.php?query=H3&current=3&traverse=1&channel=2&view=thumb

Thank you!
The OS posted this caption - Orlando Sentinel
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2008-12/43999237.jpg
"Cindy Anthony, right, grandmother of missing 3 year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, hugs an unidentified family friend, Wednesday, December 17, 2008, in the front yard of the Anthony home in Orlando, Florida, as George Anthony looks on at left"

Does anybody know if the man is the Anthony family friend and attorney Paul Kelley?

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/PaulKelleyCindyfamilyfriendlawyerBichlerandKelley. jpg
Attorney Paul Kelley, family friend of Anthonys....http://www.bichlerlaw.com/attorney-bios.html

LambChop
08-19-2010, 06:08 PM
Think about KC having a fit of rage and accidentally killing Caylee. Then think about what KC did afterwards.....went to Blockbuster (physically locked onto TL's body) and rented movies about bodies in trunks and kidnapping. The two do not match!!!!! jmo

stephr
08-19-2010, 06:15 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyhuggingmancloseupJ4CDec172008orlandosentinel. jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover2CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover1CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?
OMG !!! The pix of Cindy drooling over and hugging on some man that Think Tank posted pix of honestly made my jaw drop to the floor ! those pix r PRICELESS !!!

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 06:51 PM
OMG !!! The pix of Cindy drooling over and hugging on some man that Think Tank posted pix of honestly made my jaw drop to the floor ! those pix r PRICELESS !!!

We have never seen her show THAT MUCH (cough cough) "affection" for George, have we??!!

ExpectingUnicorns
08-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Thank you!
The OS posted this caption - Orlando Sentinel
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2008-12/43999237.jpg
"Cindy Anthony, right, grandmother of missing 3 year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, hugs an unidentified family friend, Wednesday, December 17, 2008, in the front yard of the Anthony home in Orlando, Florida, as George Anthony looks on at left"

Does anybody know if the man is the Anthony family friend and attorney Paul Kelley?

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/PaulKelleyCindyfamilyfriendlawyerBichlerandKelley. jpg
Attorney Paul Kelley, family friend of Anthonys....http://www.bichlerlaw.com/attorney-bios.html
I think the chance is only slight that these two are the same person. His eyebrows aren't shaped the same. And while it doesn't exclude anything, the watch is also different . . . MOO. Sure wonder who he is!

Pattymarie
08-19-2010, 08:26 PM
Hello WS :cool2:

I'm going to give you my train of thought because I don't know what I am getting at...

Other people have asked this question but: why didn't Casey get rid of Caylee in another manner? Why didn't she give her away?

Because Casey didn't want Cindy to "know"/be right that she was a bad mother. Plus, Cindy wouldn't have let Caylee be taken by another family. And Casey didn't want Caylee but she wanted Cindy to have Caylee even less.

I have wondered, why Casey didn't kill Caylee in more of a manner that would have lent to an "accident?" She could claim to be a grieving mother, get the sympathy and move on...I get that Cindy might have blamed her and still called her a bad mother for an accident, but Cindy was doing that anyway(calling her a bad mom) and again...make it an accident that could have happened to "anybody." Ya know?

What I think my mind is getting at, that I don't want to think about is this: maybe Casey killed Caylee in the manner that she did because she wanted to. I am starting to think that the duct tape and the trunk and the manner in which Caylee was disposed was exactly what Casey thought of Caylee.

I don't think I am the first to think this, but this is the first time I am thinking about this...

The idea that Casey did what she did to Caylee, in the manner that she did because she is a "spiteful *****" was said by Casey herself. I have been of the opinion that she did what she did to Caylee to spite Cindy but Cindy wasn't ever supposed to know about Caylee. Casey seemed like she was just going to go on keeping Cindy and George at bay, was she expecting George and Cindy to accept never seeing Caylee ever again?

After all of that...I still do not know why Casey killed Caylee. I mean I know...she wanted her freedom and she is a narcissist who can't share love or give love to others...

So, back to the "fight" Cindy and Casey had on the 15th. Yeah, there had to have been some things said between Cindy and Casey that led Casey to murder, in a most awful hateful way...Caylee Marie. Thinking about it now, Casey had to have wanted to murder Caylee, not just get rid of her. I agree with the opinion that Casey does not think too far ahead, she was mad at Cindy and hated her control and didn't love Caylee. She could have never loved Caylee to hurt her in that way. Obvious statement, sorry.

I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.

We saw Casey's anger in the jail house video/visit and my guess is Caylee had been physically abused before, the kind of anger Casey vented onto Caylee during her murder did not just appear that day. There is evidence that Casey did searches on her computer that lead one to believe she had a plan to murder before she murdered.

So, Casey had premeditated killing(someone)maybe Cindy? Maybe George and Cindy? Maybe she did think of killing Caylee in a "better" manner, one that would keep Casey "innocent" but then Cindy upped the ante on the 15th, by maybe telling Casey "that's it, were filling for custody." ? Then, Casey had "no choice" as she was heading to stay at TL and he didn't want Caylee around and Casey chose to vent her rage on Caylee.

I am so ready to hear how the SA puts this together, and I am curious as to how a jury will rule in this case. (understatement of the last two years) :crazy:

Okay. Sorry, this is not a point...it is stuff I had to get out of my head. Thanks everyone.

:twocents:

I agree with all you have said. Even if the fight pushed KC over the edge that led to the actual killing...I don't think it was an impulse or in rage, but a thought that had been simmering for a long time. You put it so well...the "manner in which she disposed of Caylee was exactly what she thought of Caylee" Shudder. Unspeakable.

That kind of feeling doesn't arise out of momentary rage, but had been percolating for awhile.

Which of course, supports all the computer searches on methods of killing.
I hope that the prosecution will be able to in exact detail lay out a timeline of the computer searches, with supported passwords, work schedules/cell phone pings of who in that family was where during the computer searches.

Dear Prudence
08-19-2010, 09:45 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyhuggingmancloseupJ4CDec172008orlandosentinel. jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover2CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover1CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?

Can anyone tell what the logo says that's on his shirt in the first picture?

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 10:07 PM
Can anyone tell what the logo says that's on his shirt in the first picture?

Good question!! I cannot read it though..... anyone???

Pattymarie
08-19-2010, 10:10 PM
Can anyone tell what the logo says that's on his shirt in the first picture?

WTH...who IS this guy?!?!

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 10:12 PM
WTH...who IS this guy?!?!

Indeed! who?????

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 10:15 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyhuggingmancloseupJ4CDec172008orlandosentinel. jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover2CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover1CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?

These are Orlando Sentinel photos - the OS caption said: "Cindy Anthony, right, grandmother of missing 3 year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, hugs an unidentified family friend, Wednesday, December 17, 2008, in the front yard of the Anthony home in Orlando, Florida, as George Anthony looks on at left. Authorities continue to search for possible evidence at the crime scene where remains of a child that could..."

Dear Prudence
08-19-2010, 10:32 PM
Indeed! who?????

At one time I thought it looked like the Anthony's pastor Shane Stutzman, but the eyebrows are so wrong. Here's a link to his website with picture:


http://www.doingwhateverittakes.org/

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 10:36 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/Dec172008.jpg

http://www.mctdirect.com/preview.php?id=200812171329MCT_____PHOTO____US_NEW S_MISSINGGIRL_4_OS


Same series of photos ... looks like Cindy is yelling at reporters or onlookers....

Dear Prudence
08-19-2010, 10:39 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/Dec172008.jpg

http://www.mctdirect.com/preview.php?id=200812171329MCT_____PHOTO____US_NEW S_MISSINGGIRL_4_OS


Same series of photos ... looks like Cindy is yelling at reporters or onlookers....

...or George

countzero
08-19-2010, 10:40 PM
At one time I thought it looked like the Anthony's pastor Shane Stutzman, but the eyebrows are so wrong. Here's a link to his website with picture:


http://www.doingwhateverittakes.org/
Good Grief, Even a man of God is trying to profit off of Calyee. Is there no shame ....... selling his new book, right beside Calyee's photo and a link to his sermon at the service.

ThinkTank
08-19-2010, 10:54 PM
At one time I thought it looked like the Anthony's pastor Shane Stutzman, but the eyebrows are so wrong. Here's a link to his website with picture:


http://www.doingwhateverittakes.org/

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/shane1vigil.jpg

I thought so too .... but not when I look at this photo of him ....

chefmom
08-19-2010, 11:19 PM
Think about KC having a fit of rage and accidentally killing Caylee. Then think about what KC did afterwards.....went to Blockbuster (physically locked onto TL's body) and rented movies about bodies in trunks and kidnapping. The two do not match!!!!! jmo

I think she rented those particular movies thinking she might get some "pointers" about how to pull this all off. She cared so little about what she had done that she thought she'd make it "like a movie". jmo

shivs
08-19-2010, 11:50 PM
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyhuggingmancloseupJ4CDec172008orlandosentinel. jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover2CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/lover1CindyhuggingmanJ4CDec182008-1.jpg

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?

He doesn't look like the pastor or the attorney. His facial features seem very prominant.

The mystery man that came for dinner way back ?? A long lost son we never knew about? (just kidding)

Cindy looks to have recieved much comfort from him, whoever he is.

Chiquita71
08-20-2010, 04:55 AM
Think about KC having a fit of rage and accidentally killing Caylee. Then think about what KC did afterwards.....went to Blockbuster (physically locked onto TL's body) and rented movies about bodies in trunks and kidnapping. The two do not match!!!!! jmo

Quote Respect LambChop :cool2:

I have gone back and forth re: the fight on the 15th(sometimes I think it happened or didn't happen or that it was the catalyst or wasn't the catalyst for Casey doing what she did to Caylee in the manner that she did), and exactly when (on the 16th) Caylee was killed.

Was there the fight and Casey ran into her room with Caylee(the pings, as far as I know, show that Casey stayed at George and Cindy's the night of the 15th and was there until 4(?)p.m. on the 16th)and Casey sedated Caylee as the first part and then wrapped the duct tape later?

I wish, so wish I knew if George really saw Casey and Caylee leave that day. Maybe Caylee was already gone, killed in Casey's room and then put in the trunk and Casey then drove to Tony's and then on to Blockbuster...?

If George really saw a live Caylee in the afternoon of the 16th, then Casey had to have killed Caylee in the time they left for "work" and the time Casey showed up at Tony's, which is only a few hours. That is where I see Casey as cold and calculating while killing Caylee. Casey had hours to calm down, still able to be mad at Cindy but would not have been in a direct rage while killing Caylee.

Where else would George be in the afternoon? I feel like he was home...but maybe he didn't see them. The fact that Cindy and George changed the story about seeing Caylee on the 16th makes me wonder if he did actually see Caylee. First they said George gave Caylee breakfast, then they backed off of that detail and just had George sitting in his chair "watching his favorite show" when Casey and Caylee appear ready to head out of the house. At one point George is quoted as saying he put Caylee in her car seat himself, but that was backed off from and I think the hugs and kisses "everything normal" was always a part of the story. We have Cindy stating she could "hear them breathe" and so she knew her girls were home.

Some part of my mind sees Casey carrying a "gone" Caylee past George with some excuse of her being asleep. And, it being later after Casey is arrested and George and Cindy are putting it all together they realize Caylee must have been gone then? Please excuse my wild speculations, as with my last post on this thread I am feeling a need to clean house of some of the information and thoughts that have been running though my mind since reading about this case. Glad I am on a psych thread! :crazy:

I think I understand what you were saying LambChop, that unless Casey's "rage" caused her to run right to Caylee, while in that rage, and wrap duct tape around her(speculation of sedation, speculation of injection for sedation)...

NO, no no...I think I have answered myself and I do agree with what you are saying. Who does all that in a rage? That's not rage, that's a plan, that takes steps. Had Caylee been shook to death, or pushed down stairs or even choked...that's rage like I think we are talking about: blind rage, seeing red after being pushed so far by Cindy(after already having issues that may or may not include incest/molestation), Casey snaps and takes all that rage out on Caylee. That is what the evidence would show, if that is what happened. But, (again, answering myself here coming to awful realizations that I have kept at bay precisely because I did not want to assume Casey had done the worst that must be seen by the evidence because the SA asked for the death penalty) that is not what the evidence shows.

The duct tape. That is it. WSers have been saying that is what is behind all the "crazy" motions JB and the team have/are filling. What's behind all the going after TES so much...hafta get rid of the duct tape.

Duct tape is why when the detectives were trying to give Casey every out there was, regarding what had happened to Caylee and where Caylee was: they tried to understand what had happened might have only been an accident, might have been a mistake that Casey was sorry for and hadn't meant to happen. But, Casey couldn't say anything because of the duct tape, and she didn't know the shape the tape would be in, she was thinking of the duct tape and Caylee the way she had last seen her, at Universal Casey didn't know Caylee was in the condition she would be found in. I think now, that some of her smugness since, is in knowing the shape of the tape(that it can be "argued" and is being "argued" as to whether there was duct tape or if it was really wrapped around the skull, etc)and believing that without the duct tape there is no way people will know how mean Casey was, and how on purpose she killed Caylee. Is that why during the SA's version of the wrapping of the duct tape Casey wanted "to make him stop?"

To clarify: what "the seeker" said in a post on this page: "it was personal" and I think I can say I get what LambChop was saying: you don't get over a rage where you kill your daughter with duct tape and throw her in the trunk in time to show up calm at blockbuster and rent movies about people who get kidnapped. It shows Casey was cruel. What she did to Caylee was cruel and calculating. Where is the emoticon for heartbreaking, when you think of what really happened to Caylee Marie. :snooty:

Why didn't Cindy want Caylee found? Her body found? We have threads on what Cindy knew and when she knew it, I am personally convinced that Cindy knew early enough to send DC to the woods, where he was almost exactly where Caylee's remains would later be found. Even if Cindy realized that Casey had killed Caylee or there had been an accident or whatever...why be so against Caylee being found? WSers have speculated that Cindy wanted to keep the money train going and that Cindy was going with the no body means Casey couldn't have killed Caylee and I agree with both of those motivations plus others like Cindy can't look like she has a bad family etc....but I wonder if Cindy knew(maybe just because she knows Casey, not that she knew for a fact)that Casey would have done something "horrible" to Caylee and it would show on or in the body? I.E. "What have you done?" "Casey is a sociopath." "Casey has issues"(RG: That's what George always said, "Casey has issues".) How the neighbors upon hearing about Caylee's "kidnapping/disappearance" offered right way that: "if Casey had killed Caylee where she might be..." Who said Casey had done this at that time? No one, Caylee was missing/kidnapped and the neighbors and Cindy's own brother were not shocked in the slightest at the idea of Casey killing her daughter. Rick, Cindy's brother was more shocked that Cindy wasn't shaking the truth out of Casey. What is the most crazy about the Bailey's and their prediction regarding where Casey had put Caylee, is they were right. How do you dismiss that people, neighbors, saw in Casey the potential to dump her child near her home before anyone should have thought Caylee was dead? They were able to jump right to the idea that Caylee was dead and jump over the idea of if Casey was capable of that, right to stating where they thought Casey would put Caylee's body. Am I making too much of this? If I had a child and they were missing(abet 31 days), I would hope my neighbors wouldn't jump right to telling the police where they think I put the body, right? I think that would say a lot about me, and not in a positive way. Annie Dowling said everyone knew Casey lied all the time...

I would like to see how the animals at George and Cindy's house react to Casey.

I am sorry to be all over the place and looking back over my own post I see that I have come to the realization, that Casey putting the duct tape on Caylee has no other purpose than showing what happened to Caylee was cruel and on purpose to be cruel to Caylee.

Rage would be violence, but what Casey did to Caylee was cruel. That is what the duct tape shows. (And if there was sedation...even more so)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty
Cruelty can be described as indifference to suffering, and even positive pleasure in inflicting it. Cruel ways of inflicting suffering may involve violence, but affirmative violence is not necessary for an act to be cruel. For example, if a person is drowning and begging for help, and another person is able to help, but merely watches with disinterest or perhaps mischievous amusement, that person is being cruel — rather than violent.

I haven not even been able to begin to process whether or not I think Casey received pleasure from hurting, murdering Caylee. I do not know one bit what I think about that, only because that is hard to think about. I just got here, to the cruelty...so now what appears is the "truth" that you wouldn't be wrapping duct tape and feeling "bad" while doing so? Does the duct tape mean Casey gained some kind of satisfaction in hurting Caylee? The duct tape is no accident, which is why it is so damming, many WSers have been saying since the beginning. Is that what she means by "maybe because I'm a spiteful *****?" Because, Cindy was asking why she couldn't see Caylee(thinking Caylee was still alive and safe with someone)and Casey was answering knowing she had wrapped three pieces of duct tape around Caylee and put her in her trunk and then after two days threw her in the woods near her home.

I still wonder what Casey thought she was going to have to finally do about George and Cindy? How was she going to explain them never being able to see Caylee or hear Caylee's voice ever again?

ETA: Great find on the picture guys, I have never seen that before. I also wonder who this person is, and find I have a reaction to said picture that is truly jmo... :sick:

:cow:

LambChop
08-20-2010, 07:48 AM
There is an answer Chiquita71....we just have to keep going back and forth until we figure it out. It's out there and I think we will eventually figure it out. I'd like to see a little more drilling with CA about the night of the 15th..... jmo

Pattymarie
08-20-2010, 09:26 AM
Quote Respect LambChop :cool2:

I have gone back and forth re: the fight on the 15th(sometimes I think it happened or didn't happen or that it was the catalyst or wasn't the catalyst for Casey doing what she did to Caylee in the manner that she did), and exactly when (on the 16th) Caylee was killed.

Was there the fight and Casey ran into her room with Caylee(the pings, as far as I know, show that Casey stayed at George and Cindy's the night of the 15th and was there until 4(?)p.m. on the 16th)and Casey sedated Caylee as the first part and then wrapped the duct tape later?

I wish, so wish I knew if George really saw Casey and Caylee leave that day. Maybe Caylee was already gone, killed in Casey's room and then put in the trunk and Casey then drove to Tony's and then on to Blockbuster...?

If George really saw a live Caylee in the afternoon of the 16th, then Casey had to have killed Caylee in the time they left for "work" and the time Casey showed up at Tony's, which is only a few hours. That is where I see Casey as cold and calculating while killing Caylee. Casey had hours to calm down, still able to be mad at Cindy but would not have been in a direct rage while killing Caylee.

Where else would George be in the afternoon? I feel like he was home...but maybe he didn't see them. The fact that Cindy and George changed the story about seeing Caylee on the 16th makes me wonder if he did actually see Caylee. First they said George gave Caylee breakfast, then they backed off of that detail and just had George sitting in his chair "watching his favorite show" when Casey and Caylee appear ready to head out of the house. At one point George is quoted as saying he put Caylee in her car seat himself, but that was backed off from and I think the hugs and kisses "everything normal" was always a part of the story. We have Cindy stating she could "hear them breathe" and so she knew her girls were home.

Some part of my mind sees Casey carrying a "gone" Caylee past George with some excuse of her being asleep. And, it being later after Casey is arrested and George and Cindy are putting it all together they realize Caylee must have been gone then? Please excuse my wild speculations, as with my last post on this thread I am feeling a need to clean house of some of the information and thoughts that have been running though my mind since reading about this case. Glad I am on a psych thread! :crazy:

I think I understand what you were saying LambChop, that unless Casey's "rage" caused her to run right to Caylee, while in that rage, and wrap duct tape around her(speculation of sedation, speculation of injection for sedation)...

NO, no no...I think I have answered myself and I do agree with what you are saying. Who does all that in a rage? That's not rage, that's a plan, that takes steps. Had Caylee been shook to death, or pushed down stairs or even choked...that's rage like I think we are talking about: blind rage, seeing red after being pushed so far by Cindy(after already having issues that may or may not include incest/molestation), Casey snaps and takes all that rage out on Caylee. That is what the evidence would show, if that is what happened. But, (again, answering myself here coming to awful realizations that I have kept at bay precisely because I did not want to assume Casey had done the worst that must be seen by the evidence because the SA asked for the death penalty) that is not what the evidence shows.

The duct tape. That is it. WSers have been saying that is what is behind all the "crazy" motions JB and the team have/are filling. What's behind all the going after TES so much...hafta get rid of the duct tape.

Duct tape is why when the detectives were trying to give Casey every out there was, regarding what had happened to Caylee and where Caylee was: they tried to understand what had happened might have only been an accident, might have been a mistake that Casey was sorry for and hadn't meant to happen. But, Casey couldn't say anything because of the duct tape, and she didn't know the shape the tape would be in, she was thinking of the duct tape and Caylee the way she had last seen her, at Universal Casey didn't know Caylee was in the condition she would be found in. I think now, that some of her smugness since, is in knowing the shape of the tape(that it can be "argued" and is being "argued" as to whether there was duct tape or if it was really wrapped around the skull, etc)and believing that without the duct tape there is no way people will know how mean Casey was, and how on purpose she killed Caylee. Is that why during the SA's version of the wrapping of the duct tape Casey wanted "to make him stop?"

To clarify: what "the seeker" said in a post on this page: "it was personal" and I think I can say I get what LambChop was saying: you don't get over a rage where you kill your daughter with duct tape and throw her in the trunk in time to show up calm at blockbuster and rent movies about people who get kidnapped. It shows Casey was cruel. What she did to Caylee was cruel and calculating. Where is the emoticon for heartbreaking, when you think of what really happened to Caylee Marie. :snooty:

Why didn't Cindy want Caylee found? Her body found? We have threads on what Cindy knew and when she knew it, I am personally convinced that Cindy knew early enough to send DC to the woods, where he was almost exactly where Caylee's remains would later be found. Even if Cindy realized that Casey had killed Caylee or there had been an accident or whatever...why be so against Caylee being found? WSers have speculated that Cindy wanted to keep the money train going and that Cindy was going with the no body means Casey couldn't have killed Caylee and I agree with both of those motivations plus others like Cindy can't look like she has a bad family etc....but I wonder if Cindy knew(maybe just because she knows Casey, not that she knew for a fact)that Casey would have done something "horrible" to Caylee and it would show on or in the body? I.E. "What have you done?" "Casey is a sociopath." "Casey has issues"(RG: That's what George always said, "Casey has issues".) How the neighbors upon hearing about Caylee's "kidnapping/disappearance" offered right way that: "if Casey had killed Caylee where she might be..." Who said Casey had done this at that time? No one, Caylee was missing/kidnapped and the neighbors and Cindy's own brother were not shocked in the slightest at the idea of Casey killing her daughter. Rick, Cindy's brother was more shocked that Cindy wasn't shaking the truth out of Casey. What is the most crazy about the Bailey's and their prediction regarding where Casey had put Caylee, is they were right. How do you dismiss that people, neighbors, saw in Casey the potential to dump her child near her home before anyone should have thought Caylee was dead? They were able to jump right to the idea that Caylee was dead and jump over the idea of if Casey was capable of that, right to stating where they thought Casey would put Caylee's body. Am I making too much of this? If I had a child and they were missing(abet 31 days), I would hope my neighbors wouldn't jump right to telling the police where they think I put the body, right? I think that would say a lot about me, and not in a positive way. Annie Dowling said everyone knew Casey lied all the time...

I would like to see how the animals at George and Cindy's house react to Casey.

I am sorry to be all over the place and looking back over my own post I see that I have come to the realization, that Casey putting the duct tape on Caylee has no other purpose than showing what happened to Caylee was cruel and on purpose to be cruel to Caylee.

Rage would be violence, but what Casey did to Caylee was cruel. That is what the duct tape shows. (And if there was sedation...even more so)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty
Cruelty can be described as indifference to suffering, and even positive pleasure in inflicting it. Cruel ways of inflicting suffering may involve violence, but affirmative violence is not necessary for an act to be cruel. For example, if a person is drowning and begging for help, and another person is able to help, but merely watches with disinterest or perhaps mischievous amusement, that person is being cruel — rather than violent.

I haven not even been able to begin to process whether or not I think Casey received pleasure from hurting, murdering Caylee. I do not know one bit what I think about that, only because that is hard to think about. I just got here, to the cruelty...so now what appears is the "truth" that you wouldn't be wrapping duct tape and feeling "bad" while doing so? Does the duct tape mean Casey gained some kind of satisfaction in hurting Caylee? The duct tape is no accident, which is why it is so damming, many WSers have been saying since the beginning. Is that what she means by "maybe because I'm a spiteful *****?" Because, Cindy was asking why she couldn't see Caylee(thinking Caylee was still alive and safe with someone)and Casey was answering knowing she had wrapped three pieces of duct tape around Caylee and put her in her trunk and then after two days threw her in the woods near her home.

I still wonder what Casey thought she was going to have to finally do about George and Cindy? How was she going to explain them never being able to see Caylee or hear Caylee's voice ever again?

ETA: Great find on the picture guys, I have never seen that before. I also wonder who this person is, and find I have a reaction to said picture that is truly jmo... :sick:

:cow:

Such a well-thought out and though-provoking post. This will be how the prosecution will link all the evidence, circumstantial and forensic together. Most interestingly will be how KC, sitting in her chair reacts, while listening to the Prosecution weave it all together.

Numbers
08-20-2010, 01:09 PM
I have it on good authority that the man Cindy was hugging is her former neighbor and ex-husband of Holly Gagne, Ken.

Dear Prudence
08-20-2010, 01:20 PM
I have it on good authority that the man Cindy was hugging is her former neighbor and ex-husband of Holly Gagne, Ken.

TY!

If I hugged a neighbor like that my husband would....well, I'm not sure, but I am sure we wouldn't be neighbors any more.

ThinkTank
08-20-2010, 01:50 PM
I have it on good authority that the man Cindy was hugging is her former neighbor and ex-husband of Holly Gagne, Ken.

WOW!! THANKS!!!!
Cindy talked kinda bad about ole Ken in her letters to Inmate Casey! But that was well after the Ken and Holly divorce was final.

Woe.be.gone
08-20-2010, 01:52 PM
I think deep down Cindy was not happy in any way shape or form how her daughter turned out. I think Cindy looked on Caylee as her (Cindy's) second chance to raise a loveable daughter. I think Cindy regarded Caylee as her (Cindy's) child, never Casey's. And I don't think Cindy wanted to share Caylee with Casey. I think Casey was getting rid of Cindy's "baby," not her own.

That's how I see it anyway.

The motive was not Casey's freedom - the motive was to get back at Cindy.

This is one of the sickest families I have EVER seen. Cindy is obsessed with controlling every situation. Has she ever given an interview with George where she isn't constantly keeping her hand on his body to control his speech. I see George and I think this man is like a ventriloquist dummy. Has anyone else noticed that the only tiome he seems to be honest is when Cindy is not around?

I get your point but another way to look at it is that by Casey not having her complete freedom created constant conflict. If CA was around to take care of Caylee and not burden KC with caretaking responsibilities (like calling her home from overnights with boyfriends, hindering KC social life especially at night*) then I don't think the conflict of who gets the love would have bothered KC so much. Someone had to work to try to pay the bills and that one person was CA (we've got to give that to her at least). Therefore, KC was expected to care for Caylee. IMO CA was growing tired (turning fifty - change of life while at the same time, Caylee was becoming harder to take care of as most two/three year olds are). IMO everybody wanted the fun of having a little girl around but nobody was there 100 percent to take responsibility for Caylee's upbringing. CA sorely underestimated what a baby KC still is. GA was off doing his lawn with his head in the sand or whatever. They feel collectively guilty I bet as they should since they were never clear to KC that her child was her responsibility.

It's like trying to figure out which came first the chicken of the egg.

*CA denies there were any conflicts despite the evidence.

less0305
08-20-2010, 01:55 PM
Can anyone tell what the logo says that's on his shirt in the first picture?

Does it look like FINANCE ONE to anyone else?

LambChop
08-20-2010, 01:57 PM
About the only thing we can blame GA for is for sticking with the marriage. Clearly there is only one head of household here and that would be CA. GA does pretty much what he is told or CA would send him packing I'm sure. He can't even say how he truly feels...which is written all over his face... jmo

Woe.be.gone
08-20-2010, 02:03 PM
We have never seen her show THAT MUCH (cough cough) "affection" for George, have we??!!

It strikes me how rested and relaxed CA looks as she greets the mystery man only six days after Caylee's remains were found. :waitasec:

Dear Prudence
08-20-2010, 03:03 PM
WOW!! THANKS!!!!
Cindy talked kinda bad about ole Ken in her letters to Inmate Casey! But that was well after the Ken and Holly divorce was final.

He's not wearing a wedding ring in that picture.

But, can't say that really means anything or not. Neither my husband nor I wear our rings. Not because of marraige problems, just because of ring problems.

ThinkTank
08-20-2010, 03:37 PM
"Ken G" on Cindy's cell phone ... but no Holly G on Cindy's cell phone ....
other interesting phone numbers on Cindy's cell phone

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/files/cindy_anthony_cell_phone_report_ocso.pdf
page 4 - as of August 4, 2008 OCSO report


http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/CindyphoneJimNBCKenGagneNLHF1a.jpg

ThinkTank
08-20-2010, 03:40 PM
He's not wearing a wedding ring in that picture.

But, can't say that really means anything or not. Neither my husband nor I wear our rings. Not because of marraige problems, just because of ring problems.

Holly and Ken's BITTER, violent divorce was final December 2009 - don't know what the status of their marriage was in December 2008? I noticed the lack of a wedding ring also.
That embrace is just tooooooo close, too tight, too much body contact, and too prolonged .... IMO

ThinkTank
08-20-2010, 03:45 PM
Does it look like FINANCE ONE to anyone else?

I really cannot tell .... Ken is a distributor for UAP - United Agri Products- a pest control product ....
I believe he also is/was a realtor for Exit Real Estate Professionals ...

Woe.be.gone
08-20-2010, 04:26 PM
TY!

If I hugged a neighbor like that my husband would....well, I'm not sure, but I am sure we wouldn't be neighbors any more.

Could this be one of CA's brothers (not Rick)?
There's a thread that discussed this picture somewhere as I remember seeing it before.

Woe.be.gone
08-20-2010, 04:31 PM
I really cannot tell .... Ken is a distributor for UAP - United Agri Products- a pest control product ....
I believe he also is/was a realtor for Exit Real Estate Professionals ...

Regarding the writing on the shirt. This will be little to no help -

I see, __* (blank c?, blank y? a star shape in the 3rd space, blank c? and ?.

Then on the blue and white part it looks like C_I. C&I?

Gaia713
08-20-2010, 04:39 PM
Holly and Ken's BITTER, violent divorce was final December 2009 - don't know what the status of their marriage was in December 2008? I noticed the lack of a wedding ring also.
That embrace is just tooooooo close, too tight, too much body contact, and too prolonged .... IMO Put that with her hands all over Rob Dick at the park while on camera, I would say Cindy was "in the market" for a replacement for George.

LambChop
08-20-2010, 04:47 PM
Holly and Ken's BITTER, violent divorce was final December 2009 - don't know what the status of their marriage was in December 2008? I noticed the lack of a wedding ring also.
That embrace is just tooooooo close, too tight, too much body contact, and too prolonged .... IMO

Maybe he brought Crab Puffs....

OneLostGrl
08-20-2010, 05:34 PM
There is an answer Chiquita71....we just have to keep going back and forth until we figure it out. It's out there and I think we will eventually figure it out. I'd like to see a little more drilling with CA about the night of the 15th..... jmo

I think there must be some reason (other than the simple "I'm a good mother" routine) that keeps Cindy completely denying there was a fight that night. I'd like to see lots more "drilling" into Cindy.

OneLostGrl
08-20-2010, 05:41 PM
Regarding the writing on the shirt. This will be little to no help -

I see, __* (blank c?, blank y? a star shape in the 3rd space, blank c? and ?.

Then on the blue and white part it looks like C_I. C&I?

I tried messing around with the pic last night but couldn't make out what it said. It looked to me like the last letters could be CSI. But it made no sense to me so I just kept it to myself. It still makes no sense.. no CSI dude would be gazing into her eyes lol so that can't be what it says.

ThinkTank
08-20-2010, 05:56 PM
I tried messing around with the pic last night but couldn't make out what it said. It looked to me like the last letters could be CSI. But it made no sense to me so I just kept it to myself. It still makes no sense.. no CSI dude would be gazing into her eyes lol so that can't be what it says.

I thought it said "CSI" also .... especially the "I" on the end ...

LiveLaughLuv
08-22-2010, 08:53 AM
Casey Anthony: Profile Of A Sociopath


Casey Anthony has finally been indicted for the first-degree murder of her daughter, Caylee Anthony. Casey is a sociopathic, superficial sensationalist. To a mental health professional, she fits the description of someone with an antisocial personality disorder - just a fancy name for "sociopath."

The disorder is recognizable by a lack of concern for others, as evidenced by her behavior after Caylee disappeared. She did not call 911 to report her daughter missing; that task was left to her mother, weeks after Caylee disappeared. While her daughter was missing, Casey was out ”clubbing”, buying lingerie and other sundry items for herself from Target, and cooking dinner for her boyfriend and his roommates.

Casey has consistently displayed contempt towards authority figures, masked by a thin veneer of civility. Listening to the police tapes, it is easy to see that Casey appears to be quite respectful to the police interviewers. She portrays herself during these interviews as one who has been wronged by a (fictitious) babysitter named Zanny, who, according to her story, kidnapped her beloved Caylee. Casey has been, according to her and to her family, maligned, misunderstood, and martyred.

In reality, Casey believes she is above the law. She presents herself as a mother who is only interested in finding her child. Yet she has done nothing but lie to the police and fabricate stories.



Read more: http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/casey-anthony-profile-of-a-sociopath/#ixzz0xL4T47nh

LiveLaughLuv
08-22-2010, 08:57 AM
Sociopaths are incapable of remaining in love, or of even selflessly loving anyone. Their sex lives are most often impersonal and chaotic, and frequently they are bisexual. There is in them an emptiness, a coldness, a disconnection from others and themselves. Casey is incapable of truly understanding how much others can be made to suffer as a result of her behavior. It does not compute.

A sociopath's motto is: Competition is king, survival the agenda, and no one is ever, ever, ever to be trusted. A sociopath's mantra: “Do unto others before they do unto you.”



Read more: http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/casey-anthony-profile-of-a-sociopath/page-3/#ixzz0xL57GoJv


She truly fits the profile. We saw her party photos, being with men and woman...she truly fits this...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

Woe.be.gone
08-23-2010, 01:44 AM
CA fits the description too. Yes she is more fluid but her goals seem to be those of a sociopath. One thing about a sociopath is that they seem totally 'regular' in everyday behavior. For instance CA's eye contact, body language seems 'normal' to me (not robotic or strange). KC seems to be 'off' in some ways.

Kirstie Alley plays a role in a movie called 'Family Sins" where it looks like she is a model citizen yet is guilty of heinous crimes. To strangers she is friendly - no one would ever guess what was going on inside her house. I saw the movie on TV and noticed it played again yesterday on Lifetime.

It's difficult to label who's what in the family because we have witnessed all of their lies, manipulations, coverups and lashing out at the wrong people, etc. I'm not saying KC couldn't be a sociopath, just that she may be the result of being the daughter of one or two for that matter. :waitasec: GA is a confusing character too imo. He may be the 'crazy maker' for all I know.

Mrs G Norris
08-23-2010, 02:00 AM
I think Cindy is Borderline http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html too many traits to list here for Cindy....but its so her.

OneLostGrl
08-23-2010, 02:08 AM
I think Cindy is Borderline http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html too many traits to list here for Cindy....but its so her.

ITA about Cindy. I also see some borderline traits in Casey.

Mrs G Norris
08-23-2010, 02:18 AM
I wonder where Casey fits on Dr Stone's scale of evil ... maybe at 11? http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/most-evil/evil-scale/evil-scale.html

Mrs G Norris
08-23-2010, 02:23 AM
ITA about Cindy. I also see some borderline traits in Casey.

Agree....def see some borderline traits in Casey....just noticed this graph at the bottom of the article with the crossover data....INTERESTING.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac286/Mrs_G_Norris/Casey%20Anthony%20General/Screenshot2010-08-23at42049PM.png

http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html

shivs
08-23-2010, 02:30 AM
Does anyone think George will ever crack? As in enough is enough.

If money was not a concern, I could see him leaving Cindy.

On the other hand I wonder if he could survive without her.

I wonder what is was like for Casey as a child. -shuder-

Leila
08-23-2010, 05:10 AM
Good question!! I cannot read it though..... anyone???

I copied the picture and enlarged it as much as I could without it blurring, and I still can't make out what it says. It's two words thought.

OneLostGrl
08-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Does anyone think George will ever crack? As in enough is enough.

If money was not a concern, I could see him leaving Cindy.

On the other hand I wonder if he could survive without her.

I wonder what is was like for Casey as a child. -shuder-

I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

Snaz
08-23-2010, 02:59 PM
I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

This is my opinion, and mine only, but I do not believe for a second that George would ever kill himself.

I also don't believe he attempted suicide at the Hawaii Motel. Although, I guess you can commit suicide by pizza just as easily as human decomposition can smell like rotted pizza. People who truly intend to commit suicide do not text others first with their intentions... and then leave on their cell phones so the location can be tracked.

He is a coward, and if he and Cindy don't end up staying together, he will find some other loser to latch onto, with his poor, pitiful me, "my life has been under a microscope"....... that is, if he can get his gonads back from Cindy.

I do not feel one iota of sympathy for George. He had his chance to stand up for his murdered granddaughter, and he chose not to. That, to me, makes him lower than a snake's belly.

:twocents:

Leila
08-23-2010, 04:44 PM
Hello WS :cool2:

I'm going to give you my train of thought because I don't know what I am getting at...

Other people have asked this question but: why didn't Casey get rid of Caylee in another manner? Why didn't she give her away?

Because Casey didn't want Cindy to "know"/be right that she was a bad mother. Plus, Cindy wouldn't have let Caylee be taken by another family. And Casey didn't want Caylee but she wanted Cindy to have Caylee even less.

I have wondered, why Casey didn't kill Caylee in more of a manner that would have lent to an "accident?" She could claim to be a grieving mother, get the sympathy and move on...I get that Cindy might have blamed her and still called her a bad mother for an accident, but Cindy was doing that anyway(calling her a bad mom) and again...make it an accident that could have happened to "anybody." Ya know?

What I think my mind is getting at, that I don't want to think about is this: maybe Casey killed Caylee in the manner that she did because she wanted to. I am starting to think that the duct tape and the trunk and the manner in which Caylee was disposed was exactly what Casey thought of Caylee.

I don't think I am the first to think this, but this is the first time I am thinking about this...

The idea that Casey did what she did to Caylee, in the manner that she did because she is a "spiteful *****" was said by Casey herself. I have been of the opinion that she did what she did to Caylee to spite Cindy but Cindy wasn't ever supposed to know about Caylee. Casey seemed like she was just going to go on keeping Cindy and George at bay, was she expecting George and Cindy to accept never seeing Caylee ever again?

After all of that...I still do not know why Casey killed Caylee. I mean I know...she wanted her freedom and she is a narcissist who can't share love or give love to others...

So, back to the "fight" Cindy and Casey had on the 15th. Yeah, there had to have been some things said between Cindy and Casey that led Casey to murder, in a most awful hateful way...Caylee Marie. Thinking about it now, Casey had to have wanted to murder Caylee, not just get rid of her. I agree with the opinion that Casey does not think too far ahead, she was mad at Cindy and hated her control and didn't love Caylee. She could have never loved Caylee to hurt her in that way. Obvious statement, sorry.

I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.

We saw Casey's anger in the jail house video/visit and my guess is Caylee had been physically abused before, the kind of anger Casey vented onto Caylee during her murder did not just appear that day. There is evidence that Casey did searches on her computer that lead one to believe she had a plan to murder before she murdered.

So, Casey had premeditated killing(someone)maybe Cindy? Maybe George and Cindy? Maybe she did think of killing Caylee in a "better" manner, one that would keep Casey "innocent" but then Cindy upped the ante on the 15th, by maybe telling Casey "that's it, were filling for custody." ? Then, Casey had "no choice" as she was heading to stay at TL and he didn't want Caylee around and Casey chose to vent her rage on Caylee.

I am so ready to hear how the SA puts this together, and I am curious as to how a jury will rule in this case. (understatement of the last two years) :crazy:

Okay. Sorry, this is not a point...it is stuff I had to get out of my head. Thanks everyone.

:twocents:

I was reading this thread late last night and after I went to bed I thought about the possibility of prior abuse. I think it's likely there was abuse at times when Casey was alone with Caylee and didn't have to put on her "perfect mother" act.

One of the things that's had me puzzled is Lee's question to Casey in one of their visits. He said, "is this like the last time?"

Considering what Lee said in the context of prior abuse, it suggests that at some time in the past Casey had hurt Caylee, tried to hide it, and later was found out. Perhaps Cindy was bathing Caylee and found suspicious bruises and asked Caylee how she got them and Caylee said, "mommy." Maybe Casey had even tried to hide it by keeping Caylee away from home for a few days?

Searchfortruth
08-24-2010, 02:27 AM
I always enjoy reading this thread, because I have a deep desire to figure these people out. If it was just Casey, and she came from a healthy home, it would be easier to blame her only. The fact that we have seen this family's exteme dysfunction makes for a blurry line, as to responsibility. Clearly the legal responsibility falls on Casey, but what moral responsibility do her parents share ? Maybe the question will never be answered completely, but I would sure like to know how much of Casey's personality is because of her make up and how much is a product of her parents. I don't guess anyone can give an exact answer to that question, but it would be helpful (at least to me) to know.

Thanks to all of you for the wonderful posts here.

logicalgirl
08-24-2010, 12:16 PM
Dr. Robert Hare is a well known Dr. who has focused his career on the study and documentation of psychopaths, to determine criteria for recognizing these individuals who he believes make up 1% of the population. A comment he has made follows:

When a psychopath commits a violent act, they’re not doing it because they’re malicious or malevolent or evil. They’re doing it because they don’t give a damn.”

I think this is the hardest element for me to grasp - I just can't wrap my head around it.

logicalgirl
08-24-2010, 01:17 PM
Just re-reading some of these articles, I came across one by Robert Hercz and his interview of Dr. Hare.
This can be found at http:www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

As I struggle to understand the full scope of the psychopathic personality, I found this to be great reading because it is in layman's language, so simple enough for me to understand. He is talking about the research on Psychopaths Among Us.

I've taken a quote out of the article as a taste:

"Hare's research upset a lot of people. Until the psychopath came into focus, it was possible to believe that bad people were just good people with bad parents or childhood trauma and that, with care, you could talk them back into being good. Hare's research suggested that some people behaved badly even when there had been no early trauma. Moreover, since psychopaths' brains were in fundamental ways different from ours, talking them into being like us might not be easy. Indeed, to this day, no one has found a way to do so.

"Some of the things he was saying about these individuals, it was unheard of," says Dr. Steven Stein, a psychologist and ceo of Multi-Health Systems in Toronto, the publisher of the Psychopathy Checklist. "Nobody believed him thirty years ago, but Bob hasn't wavered, and now everyone's where he is. Everyone's come full circle, except a small group who believe it's bad upbringing, family poverty, those kinds of factors, even though scientific evidence has shown that's not the case. There are wealthy psychopaths who've done horrendous things, and they were brought up in wonderful families."

"There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

PS I love the last line.

Woe.be.gone
08-24-2010, 08:58 PM
I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

Why do you think GA has a conscience? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not sure if his responses are because he has a conscious or because he's worried about himself.

He has said to KC, 'sorry I wasn't a good enough father'. I guess that's some sort of a conscious. Unlike CA who feels that both she and KC deserve the mother of the year award. The people who usually get awards like that would probably never think they deserve it, ya know?

Woe.be.gone
08-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Just re-reading some of these articles, I came across one by Robert Hercz and his interview of Dr. Hare.
This can be found at http:www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

As I struggle to understand the full scope of the psychopathic personality, I found this to be great reading because it is in layman's language, so simple enough for me to understand. He is talking about the research on Psychopaths Among Us.

I've taken a quote out of the article as a taste:

"Hare's research upset a lot of people. Until the psychopath came into focus, it was possible to believe that bad people were just good people with bad parents or childhood trauma and that, with care, you could talk them back into being good. Hare's research suggested that some people behaved badly even when there had been no early trauma. Moreover, since psychopaths' brains were in fundamental ways different from ours, talking them into being like us might not be easy. Indeed, to this day, no one has found a way to do so.

"Some of the things he was saying about these individuals, it was unheard of," says Dr. Steven Stein, a psychologist and ceo of Multi-Health Systems in Toronto, the publisher of the Psychopathy Checklist. "Nobody believed him thirty years ago, but Bob hasn't wavered, and now everyone's where he is. Everyone's come full circle, except a small group who believe it's bad upbringing, family poverty, those kinds of factors, even though scientific evidence has shown that's not the case. There are wealthy psychopaths who've done horrendous things, and they were brought up in wonderful families."

"There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

PS I love the last line.

It bothers me a lot to know that upon request of Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, they studied his brain after he was killed. THEY FOUND NO DIFFERENCE IN HIS BRAIN WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER BRAINS. I so wish the outcome had been different. He killed and then ate his victims. It's too hard to comprehend really. He did say he really liked each one of his victims but didn't want them to leave him so he killed them and ate parts of them.

:sick:

LambChop
08-24-2010, 09:17 PM
CA believes she and KC are woven from the same fabric, the finest fabric of entitlement. GA is just a plain old doormat. At least that is how CA see it I'm sure.... jmo

OneLostGrl
08-24-2010, 11:15 PM
Why do you think GA has a conscience? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not sure if his responses are because he has a conscious or because he's worried about himself.

He has said to KC, 'sorry I wasn't a good enough father'. I guess that's some sort of a conscious. Unlike CA who feels that both she and KC deserve the mother of the year award. The people who usually get awards like that would probably never think they deserve it, ya know?

I think George is a man-child but I also think he has honest to goodness guilt about allowing Casey's behavior to continue as long as it did, about allowing his wife to control everyones lives. That one police interview where he was (IMO) totally honest (the one he had to sneak to, got sick at when Lee showed up) telling LE about Casey and the "robbery", the stealing money, lying about working at sports athority... told me much about his ability to *feel*. He wanted very badly to tell the truth! He is a loser, I know this but I think he feels and not just about himself.

ynotdivein
08-25-2010, 12:32 AM
I think George is a man-child but I also think he has honest to goodness guilt about allowing Casey's behavior to continue as long as it did, about allowing his wife to control everyones lives. That one police interview where he was (IMO) totally honest (the one he had to sneak to, got sick at when Lee showed up) telling LE about Casey and the "robbery", the stealing money, lying about working at sports athority... told me much about his ability to *feel*. He wanted very badly to tell the truth! He is a loser, I know this but I think he feels and not just about himself.

RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

precious
08-25-2010, 12:45 AM
RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:



Makes perfect sense.

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 12:57 AM
It bothers me a lot to know that upon request of Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, they studied his brain after he was killed. THEY FOUND NO DIFFERENCE IN HIS BRAIN WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER BRAINS. I so wish the outcome had been different. He killed and then ate his victims. It's too hard to comprehend really. He did say he really liked each one of his victims but didn't want them to leave him so he killed them and ate parts of them.

:sick:

I think they found it no different because it was DEAD. These Doctors who study psychopaths, or sociopaths which is just another name, are talking about brain waves and different areas used or reactions monitored that light up different areas of the brain, not the actual brain cells.

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 01:06 AM
RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

Oh I disagree in a huge way with your statement about Cindy! Holy mackeral - that woman intensely feels shame for so many things but especially ICA. Why do you think she is controlling, angry and constantly lashing out? She feels so much shame in all her failures it has made her probably permanently unbalanced.

Shame her marriage is a failure, shame she hasn't been able to hold her family together, shame ICA is such a mess, ditto Lee - and can you imagine for a split second the shame and horror she must feel that her daughter has murdered her beloved grand daughter? To me watching her and listening her, as much as I dislike her and what she has done and will probably continue to do - all I feel and see are waves of shame coming off of her.

All this is IMO - But I've always thought that about her. Maybe after years of psychiatric help she may be salvageable, unlike ICA, who as a sociopath, or psychopath, can't be helped at all.

ynotdivein
08-25-2010, 01:16 AM
Oh I disagree in a huge way with your statement about Cindy! Holy mackeral - that woman intensely feels shame for so many things but especially ICA. Why do you think she is controlling, angry and constantly lashing out? She feels so much shame in all her failures it has made her probably permanently unbalanced.

Shame her marriage is a failure, shame she hasn't been able to hold her family together, shame ICA is such a mess, ditto Lee - and can you imagine for a split second the shame and horror she must feel that her daughter has murdered her beloved grand daughter? To me watching her and listening her, as much as I dislike her and what she has done and will probably continue to do - all I feel and see are waves of shame coming off of her.

All this is IMO - But I've always thought that about her. Maybe after years of psychiatric help she may be salvageable, unlike ICA, who as a sociopath, or psychopath, can't be helped at all.

Ah, good points all. Can we start by agreeing that shame is at least a major factor here? I totally agree with your outline above about how shame has played a significant role in Cindy's life. And yet she denies it, does all she can to bury it.

I think George actively engages with and understands shame.

You make good points that Cindy understands shame and that she has done nothing but battle against every little thing that might force her to confront shame. (Bringing your 7-months'-pregnant-unwed-daughter to a family function and DENYING the pregnancy all the way???? You're right--Cindy does know shame and she fears it 100%).

KC, I don't think has any but the slightest connection to what shame actually is, does, or feels like. Which IMO may have a lot to say about her sociopathy/personality disorder.

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 01:31 AM
Ah, good points all. Can we start by agreeing that shame is at least a major factor here? I totally agree with your outline above about how shame has played a significant role in Cindy's life. And yet she denies it, does all she can to bury it.

I think George actively engages with and understands shame.

You make good points that Cindy understands shame and that she has done nothing but battle against every little thing that might force her to confront shame. (Bringing your 7-months'-pregnant-unwed-daughter to a family function and DENYING the pregnancy all the way???? You're right--Cindy does know shame and she fears it 100%).

KC, I don't think has any but the slightest connection to what shame actually is, does, or feels like. Which IMO may have a lot to say about her sociopathy/personality disorder.

Thanks for your consideration and comments ynotdivein - I was almost afraid to come back to the thread after saying something so contrary to what most folks suggest.

Again, don't anyone take my comments as condoning anything she does, but I watch/listen to her and think - does she really think we all can't see her shame and how angry it makes her.

My family or what I have left of it is shame based - (some of it for very good reason) and I get that instant recognition. I had to do a lot of "work" to get over it and found it's now a good sign to me to reassess my behavior when I get flashes of it. Usually means I am fighting my way upstream when I actually should be heading down if you know what I mean.

Did I mention excluding my children whose pendulum seems to swing too far the other way - whole lotta self love there - sometimes too much!

ynotdivein
08-25-2010, 05:29 PM
Thanks for your consideration and comments ynotdivein - I was almost afraid to come back to the thread after saying something so contrary to what most folks suggest.

Again, don't anyone take my comments as condoning anything she does, but I watch/listen to her and think - does she really think we all can't see her shame and how angry it makes her.

My family or what I have left of it is shame based - (some of it for very good reason) and I get that instant recognition. I had to do a lot of "work" to get over it and found it's now a good sign to me to reassess my behavior when I get flashes of it. Usually means I am fighting my way upstream when I actually should be heading down if you know what I mean.

Did I mention excluding my children whose pendulum seems to swing too far the other way - whole lotta self love there - sometimes too much!

LG, I always appreciate a good bout of respectful intellectual speculation! Your perceptions of Cindy (and I am sad that you have such personal experience with her type and glad that you are moving up and beyond that) are important and you provided me a good check on my assumptions. :hug:

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 05:38 PM
LG, I always appreciate a good bout of respectful intellectual speculation! Your perceptions of Cindy (and I am sad that you have such personal experience with her type and glad that you are moving up and beyond that) are important and you provided me a good check on my assumptions. :hug:

You and your open attitude are one of the reasons I love websleuths.:blowkiss:

Woe.be.gone
08-25-2010, 06:27 PM
I think they found it no different because it was DEAD. These Doctors who study psychopaths, or sociopaths which is just another name, are talking about brain waves and different areas used or reactions monitored that light up different areas of the brain, not the actual brain cells.

Oh yes, you're right. I've seen that about brain studies where red signals that a person needs alot of risk taking, etc. Or they can tell if the frontal lobe is activated when making a decision, etc. It's not like they find big portians of brain missing. Sometimes they do find an actual tumor in a person's brain which could explain some of their actions but that would more likely be actions that came on suddenly.

The program I watched ended by telling us that JD's brain was found to be 'normal'. Why didn't his mother insist they test his brain when he was alive - ugh!
Things are never simple.

Woe.be.gone
08-25-2010, 07:51 PM
RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

I think if someone started when you were a child and told you weren't like other kids, didn't behave as well, didn't get the best marks, weren't tidy enough, or something about not achieving a goal someone else has held out as good, or the way to "be", and then you learn to recognize what is "good" or considered "the way to be" as an adult and fall short of those goals, the feelings of unworthiness or not as good or valuable as others is the same as shame.
When you see children making fun of other kids for riding an old bike, when they have new ones, that child is probably feeling shame. When you see an adult set themselves to be a certain approved way in society, such as "in a happy marriage" or climbing the corporate ladder, or "living the good life" and they fail to achieve those "pre-set", expected by their peers, goals, the feeling they have that is associated with failing is shame, or not "good enough". Shame = failure without wrong doing.

I think guilt - is the feeling the majority of us get when we knowingly do something we know is wrong. I think some people don't feel guilt until they get caught at their wrong doing. And sometimes when they are caught- they feel shame.

All IMO of course. I've tried not to use clinical terms or buzz words.

LambChop
08-25-2010, 08:23 PM
I think the A's suffer from misplaced anger they are unable to manage so it manages them. jmo

logicalgirl
08-25-2010, 09:05 PM
I think the A's suffer from misplaced anger they are unable to manage so it manages them. jmo

I agree - I think their anger is shame based and it will never be resolved without self acceptance and looking at themselves with wide open eyes. If we never admit mistakes we get layer upon layer of anger, and as you say, it manages them.

Woe.be.gone
08-25-2010, 09:23 PM
I think if someone started when you were a child and told you weren't like other kids, didn't behave as well, didn't get the best marks, weren't tidy enough, or something about not achieving a goal someone else has held out as good, or the way to "be", and then you learn to recognize what is "good" or considered "the way to be" as an adult and fall short of those goals, the feelings of unworthiness or not as good or valuable as others is the same as shame.
When you see children making fun of other kids for riding an old bike, when they have new ones, that child is probably feeling shame. When you see an adult set themselves to be a certain approved way in society, such as "in a happy marriage" or climbing the corporate ladder, or "living the good life" and they fail to achieve those "pre-set", expected by their peers, goals, the feeling they have that is associated with failing is shame, or not "good enough". Shame = failure without wrong doing.

I think guilt - is the feeling the majority of us get when we knowingly do something we know is wrong. I think some people don't feel guilt until they get caught at their wrong doing. And sometimes when they are caught- they feel shame.

All IMO of course. I've tried not to use clinical terms or buzz words.

I definitely hear what you're saying. It would take a very centered, strong child to recognize that the shame belonged to the other children. They are the ones who, when they grow up, should feel ashamed of themselves.

Come to think of it, my mom didn't have a father from the time she was two. She was born in the 30's. She told me that she was ashamed and made up stories that her father was a high ranking officer in the war in order to cover for him not being around. She felt shame - no fault of her own but still she felt shame because of her circumstance (something must be wrong with me because my father is not here). One of her lasting weaknesses is that she always thinks other people have it better as far as their own capabilities go. So and so appears perfect therefore they must be. As I've grown, I've told her over and over again "Mom, everyone has problems of one kind or another". She'll say with surprise in her voice, so and so is pregnant and not married as if it could never happen to them because in her mind they are perfect. I can't really explain it clearly but it's almost like she thinks more highly of other people. She's in her seventies and finally can say to me, so and so's daughter is getting a divorce, I guess all people have struggles. Duh! It's like she had to overcome some inner sadness/inadequacy or something.

Then, not long ago, I found that her bio was buried out in CA in a Veteran's cemetary. Veteran? Although not high ranking as in Officer, he obviously served in the military. I called my mom and said, "Mom, I guess you were telling the truth to some degree when you told your friends that your dad was not around because he was in the war. Ha! But, yes, she felt shame over what he did (abandoned her). But I'm ashamed of him. Who was this masked man who could leave his baby with her mother to fend for themselves? Shame on him. Children are prone to internalizing the weaknesses of their parents. I've had to work on my own confidence because of this, it kind of trickles down.

ynotdivein
08-26-2010, 12:18 AM
I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

Line above RBBM

Woe, thank you for putting these definitions out here. You've gone further in extending my own understanding of what seems to be going on here. I'm glad you added "ignominy" to the list too--I think the entire Anthony clan is experiencing ignominy right now. (Ignominy--etymologically linked to being unknown, an outcast; the force of the word is that others' views of one are the primary engine behind the word's meaning.) Ignominy carries a sense that others are placing that ignominy upon one, no matter whether or how deserved it is.

Shame, as your example details above, is caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety. I bolded "shortcoming" because I can see GA's utterances as showing shame due to his own internalized consciousness or perception of shortcoming. As a husband, a father, a man, a human being.

I believe that in Cindy we see a person immersed in guilt (not that she murdered Caylee but that she feels she should have protected her better) and who is allergic to even the suggestion of shame or ignominy coming upon her family. She is therefore sublimating the consciousness of her own and her family's shortcomings in deeply sick ways. Cindy may feel shame but is so terrified of it that she will do absolutely anything to deny it. She has the consciousness to be aware of shame but is burying it behind a bright wall of media spin. Internally, she is dying. (MOO)

IMO Casey herself is incapable of consciously feeling guilt, as in her mind whatever she did was done for the best of all possible reasons (i.e., to make KC's life better). As for shame, if we go with the dictionary definition, it means "a consciousness of guilt shortcoming or inadequacy" and I haven't seen much to tell me KC has any capacity to consciously feel guilt, shortcoming, or inadequacy.

MOO MOO MOO

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 12:48 AM
Tracy's account of her time spent with KC really brought the fact to light that KC didn't outwardly demonstrate any feelings of sadness, guilt or shame for whatever has happened to Caylee.

KC seems to be on some other wave length altogether. As a matter of fact, Lee does too.

So the word ignominy encompasses what Logic describes in her post above and the outside forces (imagined or real) influencing peoples' definitions of themselves? That's a new word for me.

To be continued ... not sure if I'm making any sense as I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard!

ynotdivein
08-26-2010, 01:06 AM
Tracy's account of her time spent with KC really brought the fact to light that KC didn't outwardly demonstrate any feelings of sadness, guilt or shame for whatever has happened to Caylee.

KC seems to be on some other wave length altogether. As a matter of fact, Lee does too.

So the word ignominy encompasses what Logic describes in her post above and the outside forces (imagined or real) influencing peoples' definitions of themselves? That's a new word for me.

To be continued ... not sure if I'm making any sense as I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard!

Darling! If you must fall asleep upon the keyboard, at least put a pillow down. If we get a Woe post that says "xvxcvhjxuoiha;fo;ea;ruj;edlkjda;mnvvjdakhuj.sdkfjk dafs.jkjkdsafjkjkdfsjkisauoddioua" we will understand.

IMO "ignominy" is how you would describe another or another's situation. Roger Clemens is dealing with ignominy right now for taking steroids and lying about it. Other people view him with ignominy. I don't think that Roger Clemens feels ignominy about this. Ignominy is what is happening to him, externally. Does Roger Clemens feel guilt for taking steroids and/or lying about it? He might. If he really did those things and if he has a conscience he might feel guilty. Does he feel shame? The sense of fingers pointing at him?

Maybe shame is the awareness of ignominy?

wildchild1961
08-26-2010, 04:59 AM
I agree - I think their anger is shame based and it will never be resolved without self acceptance and looking at themselves with wide open eyes. If we never admit mistakes we get layer upon layer of anger, and as you say, it manages them.

I have been reading these particular posts with great interest. I love reading new ideas and discovering the "other side", things that make me go.. oooooooooooh.. and shakes me out of my comfort zone and gets me thinking. So I have been thinking about shame and its ramifications.

On one hand... I completely 100% agree that anger drives Cindy. It controls her and has for a very long time. However, I am having a lot of problem with "shame" being the root cause. To me.. shame is something that happens when you feel guilt. I have never once.. seen Cindy allow herself to feel guilt, even when she lies and knows she is caught in one red-handed. She is WAY too righteous when she is angry and when you feel righteous.. you do NOT feel you are the slightest bit in the wrong. So why would you feel guilty? Not in any way, shape or form. In fact.. you feel you have every right in the world.. to feel.. well.. "righteous". Cindy feels RIGHTEOUS. When she gets angry.. it's apparent in every word she speaks, every gesture she makes and every single muscle/bone in her body. It literally EXUDES from her pores and righteous folk.. never feel guilty. EVER. Hence.. I just cannot see how shame plays into this that much. Shame comes AFTER the act.. not before it. That righteous anger.. reassures her that she need never feel guilty.

What I do see playing a HUGE role in Cindy's anger over the years.. is how she has learned to cope with embarrassment. George's "failures" as a provider and husband. George gambling HER hard earned money away. Casey getting pregnant. Casey stealing money. Casey telling lies. Her home always having to be cleaner/better than anyone else's, Caylee's care was always THE BEST (out of Cindy's own mouth). Casey has to be Mother of the Year. Casey's inadequacies as a daughter.. and even Cindy's own issues of allowing them all to continue to parasitically feed of her. But yet it was all dealt with IN HOUSE.. because there would be hell to pay if anyone outside of the home knew. Cindy never felt guilty about these acts.. Cindy would be embarrassed if others found out. Shame is about how you internalize situations. Cindy doesn't internalize.. not from what we have seen at least. From what we see peeking on on the windows of their lives.. Cindy has spent a lifetime tamping down that guilt and making sure it was everyone else's fault.

let me toss out a different word.

"Embarrassment
A state of being embarrassed; perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"

Watch the old videos folks.. and see when Cindy goes the most ballistic and evil in her attacks on folks. It's when she gets EMBARRASSED. She gets embarrassed when answering questions about Casey. Cindy can't defend Casey's actions because she hasn't even been given enough respect from Casey to have been TOLD all that has happened so the embarrassment kicks in because of...(perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"). To try and cover Casey's worthless behind.. Cindy makes the most pathetic and dishonest statements around and looks like a complete fool by spouting that stuff.. so after she makes those statements.. and is questioned again about how stupid they sound.. watch her get embarrassed and then go straight to a vicious attack because once again... "perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness" comes right back into play. That is NOT shame.. she is waaaaaay too busy ranting and raving to internalize guilt.

IMO.. this reaction to being embarrassed started with Cindy when she was a very young girl. Virulent anger is a release of the immature when they are feeling helpless and EMBARRASSED. Watch a teenager shoot something perfectly wicked and evil outa their mouths when they get mad because you caught them in the middle of a huge ole whopper. It's embarrassment. Shame comes LATER.. AFTER you have cooled down (not before) and understand how badly you have acted or hurt someone. Cindy never has allowed herself to reach that point in any interview or video I have seen, Not once.. ever.

Cindy is either all soft and sweet.. or full of rage and righteousness. I honestly have never seen any trace of shame. If someone could point me to a video where she demonstrates it.. I will happily eat my words.

It's not shame that I see coming off her in those videos. It's poison .. spewing out of her from all the "wrongs" she has been handed in life.

as always.. just my two cents..

and thank you all for some really thought provoking posts :)

wild

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 10:12 AM
Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

essies
08-26-2010, 10:19 AM
Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

BBM
IMO the root cause goes back to Cindy's roots in Ohio. Unless we get more insight from her brother Rick-we'll probably never figure it out!!:waitasec:

LambChop
08-26-2010, 10:29 AM
Maybe it is something as simple as being stuck in a bad marriage. Feeling that you can't get out but the least you can do is present yourself to the outside world as having the perfect life, don't let anyone know the truth by closing yourself off and keeping family business to yourselves. One by one each one of the family members starts to disappoint you for minor or major reasons. You wake up one morning to find your whole life just went down the drain and you start scratching at the drain to keep from losing all of it. I would say years of disappointment, one right after another and never, ever admitting there is a problem or facing that problem to find a resolution. No one to blame but yourself. If you're not part of the solution, you are certainly part of the problem. This is CA today. jmo

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Maybe it is something as simple as being stuck in a bad marriage. Feeling that you can't get out but the least you can do is present yourself to the outside world as having the perfect life, don't let anyone know the truth by closing yourself off and keeping family business to yourselves. One by one each one of the family members starts to disappoint you for minor or major reasons. You wake up one morning to find your whole life just went down the drain and you start scratching at the drain to keep from losing all of it. I would say years of disappointment, one right after another and never, ever admitting there is a problem or facing that problem to find a resolution. No one to blame but yourself. If you're not part of the solution, you are certainly part of the problem. This is CA today. jmo

Exactly! Again, I have no patience with how she presents herself to the world as a result of her own failures and how she feels about the failures in her life, but I believe you've put it in a nutshell.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 11:08 AM
I have been reading these particular posts with great interest. I love reading new ideas and discovering the "other side", things that make me go.. oooooooooooh.. and shakes me out of my comfort zone and gets me thinking. So I have been thinking about shame and its ramifications.

On one hand... I completely 100% agree that anger drives Cindy. It controls her and has for a very long time. However, I am having a lot of problem with "shame" being the root cause. To me.. shame is something that happens when you feel guilt. I have never once.. seen Cindy allow herself to feel guilt, even when she lies and knows she is caught in one red-handed. She is WAY too righteous when she is angry and when you feel righteous.. you do NOT feel you are the slightest bit in the wrong. So why would you feel guilty? Not in any way, shape or form. In fact.. you feel you have every right in the world.. to feel.. well.. "righteous". Cindy feels RIGHTEOUS. When she gets angry.. it's apparent in every word she speaks, every gesture she makes and every single muscle/bone in her body. It literally EXUDES from her pores and righteous folk.. never feel guilty. EVER. Hence.. I just cannot see how shame plays into this that much. Shame comes AFTER the act.. not before it. That righteous anger.. reassures her that she need never feel guilty.

What I do see playing a HUGE role in Cindy's anger over the years.. is how she has learned to cope with embarrassment. George's "failures" as a provider and husband. George gambling HER hard earned money away. Casey getting pregnant. Casey stealing money. Casey telling lies. Her home always having to be cleaner/better than anyone else's, Caylee's care was always THE BEST (out of Cindy's own mouth). Casey has to be Mother of the Year. Casey's inadequacies as a daughter.. and even Cindy's own issues of allowing them all to continue to parasitically feed of her. But yet it was all dealt with IN HOUSE.. because there would be hell to pay if anyone outside of the home knew. Cindy never felt guilty about these acts.. Cindy would be embarrassed if others found out. Shame is about how you internalize situations. Cindy doesn't internalize.. not from what we have seen at least. From what we see peeking on on the windows of their lives.. Cindy has spent a lifetime tamping down that guilt and making sure it was everyone else's fault.

let me toss out a different word.

"Embarrassment
A state of being embarrassed; perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"

Watch the old videos folks.. and see when Cindy goes the most ballistic and evil in her attacks on folks. It's when she gets EMBARRASSED. She gets embarrassed when answering questions about Casey. Cindy can't defend Casey's actions because she hasn't even been given enough respect from Casey to have been TOLD all that has happened so the embarrassment kicks in because of...(perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"). To try and cover Casey's worthless behind.. Cindy makes the most pathetic and dishonest statements around and looks like a complete fool by spouting that stuff.. so after she makes those statements.. and is questioned again about how stupid they sound.. watch her get embarrassed and then go straight to a vicious attack because once again... "perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness" comes right back into play. That is NOT shame.. she is waaaaaay too busy ranting and raving to internalize guilt.

IMO.. this reaction to being embarrassed started with Cindy when she was a very young girl. Virulent anger is a release of the immature when they are feeling helpless and EMBARRASSED. Watch a teenager shoot something perfectly wicked and evil outa their mouths when they get mad because you caught them in the middle of a huge ole whopper. It's embarrassment. Shame comes LATER.. AFTER you have cooled down (not before) and understand how badly you have acted or hurt someone. Cindy never has allowed herself to reach that point in any interview or video I have seen, Not once.. ever.

Cindy is either all soft and sweet.. or full of rage and righteousness. I honestly have never seen any trace of shame. If someone could point me to a video where she demonstrates it.. I will happily eat my words.

It's not shame that I see coming off her in those videos. It's poison .. spewing out of her from all the "wrongs" she has been handed in life.

as always.. just my two cents..

and thank you all for some really thought provoking posts :)

wild

It is interesting to discuss isn't it Wild, as long as we can stay objective and not get caught in our own feelings about Cindy's end behavior. And mine are :banghead::furious:

I do believe before one feels guilt one must feel shame or else what are you feeling guilty about? Something has caused the feeling of guilt but I don't believe guilt is a core feeling. If we start at love, then move up to the next level, which is hate, and the levels after that.

countzero
08-26-2010, 12:13 PM
CA only feels entitlement. Everything else she does is a by-product of her need for entitlement. Hence we view the narcissism she displays on an on-going basis.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 01:22 PM
CA only feels entitlement. Everything else she does is a by-product of her need for entitlement. Hence we view the narcissism she displays on an on-going basis.

LOL you've "trumped me" because I'm not getting into a long winded discussion about what is the basis of her feelings of entitlement, what is it's root cause. Hahaha - I'm interested in what makes her tick but not that interested!!!

sharpar
08-26-2010, 01:29 PM
I have always liked the following explaination

Shame is I am bad

Guilt is I did a bad thing

countzero
08-26-2010, 01:57 PM
LOL you've "trumped me" because I'm not getting into a long winded discussion about what is the basis of her feelings of entitlement, what is it's root cause. Hahaha - I'm interested in what makes her tick but not that interested!!!

There isn't enough time in a year to explain in depth why CA feels entitled. All her feelings go back to her childhood and progressed from there. Same as ICA with the exception that I believe CA hated the fact she gave birth to her. Competition that grew intense from day one. CA herself states "we are made from the same cloth". ICA followed the same path of hatred for Caylee.

Shirley and Rick have given a brief glimpse of CAs past behaviors. And I would bet more will come out in the trial.

Whatever the root cause is, we know what the end result of CAs behavior was.

Will CA change, not a snowballs chance in HE double hockey sticks. Even faced with a terminal illness, she will continue on her path.

Side note here: CA does not have any mental illness; personality disorders, oh yea. She is perfectly aware of her actions. The fact that she "challenges" the legal system and societies rules of conduct on an on-going basis demonstrates she knows the legal definition of right and wrong.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 02:43 PM
There isn't enough time in a year to explain in depth why CA feels entitled. All her feelings go back to her childhood and progressed from there. Same as ICA with the exception that I believe CA hated the fact she gave birth to her. Competition that grew intense from day one. CA herself states "we are made from the same cloth". ICA followed the same path of hatred for Caylee.

Shirley and Rick have given a brief glimpse of CAs past behaviors. And I would bet more will come out in the trial.

Whatever the root cause is, we know what the end result of CAs behavior was.

Will CA change, not a snowballs chance in HE double hockey sticks. Even faced with a terminal illness, she will continue on her path.

Side note here: CA does not have any mental illness; personality disorders, oh yea. She is perfectly aware of her actions. The fact that she "challenges" the legal system and societies rules of conduct on an on-going basis demonstrates she knows the legal definition of right and wrong.

So, what you are saying is people who have mental illnesses or personality disorders are not aware of their actions?

Of course they are. And ICA is clearly a psychopath, she cares nothing for Cindy beyond the things she wants for her. That's IMO part of Cindy's problem, she knows it, but keeps trying over and over to connect with her. It's all a game to ICA.

wildchild1961
08-26-2010, 02:55 PM
Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

feeling completely inadequate and powerless... so the anger kicks in. But IMO I feel we are splitting hairs here. I feel shame is the end result of all these feelings .. right before you "clue in" and change what you are doing instead of being the feeling that causes you to act out in anger. If you haven't done wrong.. to be ashamed about.. why would you react to it by getting angry? Cindy appears to have been angry her whole adult life... even the neighbors talk about her being the "B" of the block. What would she have been ashamed about all that time.. to continually be so angry, mean and vindictive? How she is reacting is not only because of the situation with Casey.

I just think we are differing on when and how "shame" comes into play.

wild

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I have been reading these particular posts with great interest. I love reading new ideas and discovering the "other side", things that make me go.. oooooooooooh.. and shakes me out of my comfort zone and gets me thinking. So I have been thinking about shame and its ramifications.

On one hand... I completely 100% agree that anger drives Cindy. It controls her and has for a very long time. However, I am having a lot of problem with "shame" being the root cause. To me.. shame is something that happens when you feel guilt. I have never once.. seen Cindy allow herself to feel guilt, even when she lies and knows she is caught in one red-handed. She is WAY too righteous when she is angry and when you feel righteous.. you do NOT feel you are the slightest bit in the wrong. So why would you feel guilty? Not in any way, shape or form. In fact.. you feel you have every right in the world.. to feel.. well.. "righteous". Cindy feels RIGHTEOUS. When she gets angry.. it's apparent in every word she speaks, every gesture she makes and every single muscle/bone in her body. It literally EXUDES from her pores and righteous folk.. never feel guilty. EVER. Hence.. I just cannot see how shame plays into this that much. Shame comes AFTER the act.. not before it. That righteous anger.. reassures her that she need never feel guilty.

What I do see playing a HUGE role in Cindy's anger over the years.. is how she has learned to cope with embarrassment. George's "failures" as a provider and husband. George gambling HER hard earned money away. Casey getting pregnant. Casey stealing money. Casey telling lies. Her home always having to be cleaner/better than anyone else's, Caylee's care was always THE BEST (out of Cindy's own mouth). Casey has to be Mother of the Year. Casey's inadequacies as a daughter.. and even Cindy's own issues of allowing them all to continue to parasitically feed of her. But yet it was all dealt with IN HOUSE.. because there would be hell to pay if anyone outside of the home knew. Cindy never felt guilty about these acts.. Cindy would be embarrassed if others found out. Shame is about how you internalize situations. Cindy doesn't internalize.. not from what we have seen at least. From what we see peeking on on the windows of their lives.. Cindy has spent a lifetime tamping down that guilt and making sure it was everyone else's fault.

let me toss out a different word.

"Embarrassment
A state of being embarrassed; perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"

Watch the old videos folks.. and see when Cindy goes the most ballistic and evil in her attacks on folks. It's when she gets EMBARRASSED. She gets embarrassed when answering questions about Casey. Cindy can't defend Casey's actions because she hasn't even been given enough respect from Casey to have been TOLD all that has happened so the embarrassment kicks in because of...(perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"). To try and cover Casey's worthless behind.. Cindy makes the most pathetic and dishonest statements around and looks like a complete fool by spouting that stuff.. so after she makes those statements.. and is questioned again about how stupid they sound.. watch her get embarrassed and then go straight to a vicious attack because once again... "perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness" comes right back into play. That is NOT shame.. she is waaaaaay too busy ranting and raving to internalize guilt.

IMO.. this reaction to being embarrassed started with Cindy when she was a very young girl. Virulent anger is a release of the immature when they are feeling helpless and EMBARRASSED. Watch a teenager shoot something perfectly wicked and evil outa their mouths when they get mad because you caught them in the middle of a huge ole whopper. It's embarrassment. Shame comes LATER.. AFTER you have cooled down (not before) and understand how badly you have acted or hurt someone. Cindy never has allowed herself to reach that point in any interview or video I have seen, Not once.. ever.

Cindy is either all soft and sweet.. or full of rage and righteousness. I honestly have never seen any trace of shame. If someone could point me to a video where she demonstrates it.. I will happily eat my words.

It's not shame that I see coming off her in those videos. It's poison .. spewing out of her from all the "wrongs" she has been handed in life.

as always.. just my two cents..

and thank you all for some really thought provoking posts :)

wild

Great synopsis of your view. This is the way I look at CA too - the word 'righteous' describes CA's demeanor.

I googled something like 'people who can never admit they are wrong' and narcissism came up.

The self defeating thing about the way CA behaves is that usually, when someone admits a weakness or that they are wrong, people will try to understand, help and comfort you. She just insights anger in others by the way she reacts and lashes out and refuses to listen to any other point of view but her own.

countzero
08-26-2010, 03:19 PM
So, what you are saying is people who have mental illnesses or personality disorders are not aware of their actions?

Of course they are. And ICA is clearly a psychopath, she cares nothing for Cindy beyond the things she wants for her. That's IMO part of Cindy's problem, she knows it, but keeps trying over and over to connect with her. It's all a game to ICA.

Lol, no dear friend. I am saying CA does not have a mental illness. She has personality disorders, quite a few in a collection. CA is more than aware of right and wrong in the legal sense. CA plays a role 24/7 depending on her audience. When in front of the media, she plays the grieving persona. At home, behind closed curtains, she is a witch on wheels. She could care less where ICA ends up. A box six feet under or behind bars in a cell. What CA does care about is her self entitlement; to project the image of importance that CA has conjured in her mind. Definitely the wrong way to do it, but then again CA is on a mission the media apparently wants to assist her with.

ICA is all together another issue. ICA has many of CAs personality plus disorders and she took her hatred towards CA to the ultimate extreme.

My post was directed towards CA.

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 03:31 PM
Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

A personality disorder! Common sense is not going to explain away or make sense of any of her behaviors. This woman is pathological. She knows no other ways of coping!

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

fear, defensiveness, defensiveness against guilt that one can never admit or acknowledge in a million years because it's everyone else's fault, the need to be in control which must stem from some sort of fear or because you're trying to order your unordered life, fear of failure and denial of reality.

How am I doing? I'm just writing down what comes to mind based on your questions. Righteousness is a defense mechanism I would think. She will fight to the death to prove she is right even if she isn't :waitasec:. So lastly, stupidity.

I read somewhere that anger is the easiest reaction to cover for other feelings; sadness and fear. When someone is angry all the time they are usually afraid. Again, a defense mechanism.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 03:42 PM
I know everyone is pretty bent out of shape about Cindy's behavior but I am expressing my personal observations and viewpoint. I'd like a much more intense study of her before I make really sweeping statements.

We only see media clips, interviews, depos etc., and those are life slices, that we can make assumptions from. Who knows what the heck drives this woman and what influences she is under when we see her behavior. She definitely has only three wheels on her wagon, that I know for sure. But why? It is fun to guess.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 03:43 PM
fear, defensiveness, defensiveness against guilt that one can never admit or acknowledge in a million years because it's everyone else's fault, the need to be in control which must stem from some sort of fear or because you're trying to order your unordered life, fear of failure and denial of reality.

How am I doing? I'm just writing down what comes to mind based on your questions. Righteousness is a defense mechanism I would think. She will fight to the death to prove she is right even if she isn't :waitasec:. So lastly, stupidity.

I read somewhere that anger is the easiest reaction to cover for other feelings; sadness and fear. When someone is angry all the time they are usually afraid. Again, a defense mechanism.

You are doing great - those are excellent! I love that last one - stupidity!:innocent:

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 03:46 PM
There isn't enough time in a year to explain in depth why CA feels entitled. All her feelings go back to her childhood and progressed from there. Same as ICA with the exception that I believe CA hated the fact she gave birth to her. Competition that grew intense from day one. CA herself states "we are made from the same cloth". ICA followed the same path of hatred for Caylee.

Shirley and Rick have given a brief glimpse of CAs past behaviors. And I would bet more will come out in the trial.

Whatever the root cause is, we know what the end result of CAs behavior was.

Will CA change, not a snowballs chance in HE double hockey sticks. Even faced with a terminal illness, she will continue on her path.

Side note here: CA does not have any mental illness; personality disorders, oh yea. She is perfectly aware of her actions. The fact that she "challenges" the legal system and societies rules of conduct on an on-going basis demonstrates she knows the legal definition of right and wrong.

I agree she most likely will never change but she can change if she really wants to. Behavioral Therapy (combined with IMO anti-psychotics) can be an amazing tool for those with these types of personality disorders who willing to be honest with themselves and motivated to change. Those 2 things (honesty and motivation to change) just don't happen very often.. or if they do, they don't last for very long, sadly. But like you, I can't see Cindy ever getting to a point where she'd admit she even has a problem!

LambChop
08-26-2010, 03:47 PM
You're disappointed at how life treats you then all of a sudden a ray of sunshine comes into your life and is as quickly taken away. CA thought she had all bases covered by NOT sharing Caylee's birth with the birth father.....instead she has to deal with the child's mother who has done far worse than just ask for visitation. Sometimes things just don't turn out as you expected. Makes for a very angry person. jmo

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 03:52 PM
I agree she most likely will never change but she can change if she really wants to. Behavioral Therapy (combined with IMO anti-psychotics) can be an amazing tool for those with these types of personality disorders who willing to be honest with themselves and motivated to change. Those 2 things (honesty and motivation to change) just don't happen very often.. or if they do, they don't last for very long, sadly. But like you, I can't see Cindy ever getting to a point where she'd admit she even has a problem!

I'm going to be really really interested to see what is left in Cindy's shell at the end of the trial with the guilty verdict and the penalty. This will be no quickie trial. And much of the evidence will be brutal and unarguable.

We know Baez will immediately scuttle off stage left to whatever life holds for him. But what will Cindy do? Collapse at the absolutely enormity of the crime? Because what she has been fighting since day 31 has been that one word - guilty. Or will she come out swinging. I'm really not sure.....

I'd assume swinging, but then again, that's a long long time to hold all that together, and the SA will be chopping away at all her theories during the trial. So maybe she will just be a puddle on the floor...

Forgot the main part - because Cindy knows in her heart ICA is guilty.

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 03:53 PM
Maybe it is something as simple as being stuck in a bad marriage. Feeling that you can't get out but the least you can do is present yourself to the outside world as having the perfect life, don't let anyone know the truth by closing yourself off and keeping family business to yourselves. One by one each one of the family members starts to disappoint you for minor or major reasons. You wake up one morning to find your whole life just went down the drain and you start scratching at the drain to keep from losing all of it. I would say years of disappointment, one right after another and never, ever admitting there is a problem or facing that problem to find a resolution. No one to blame but yourself. If you're not part of the solution, you are certainly part of the problem. This is CA today. jmo

And it's displaced anger at everyone and anyone who cannot or does not want to see things her way. The more control she lost (over GA and CA), the more she began sounding like a drill sergeant. The crazy making concept again.

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 03:57 PM
I know everyone is pretty bent out of shape about Cindy's behavior but I am expressing my personal observations and viewpoint. I'd like a much more intense study of her before I make really sweeping statements.

We only see media clips, interviews, depos etc., and those are life slices, that we can make assumptions from. Who knows what the heck drives this woman and what influences she is under when we see her behavior. She definitely has only three wheels on her wagon, that I know for sure. But why? It is fun to guess.

There is so much I'd love to know about Cindy because I think if we knew them Casey and her behaviors and ways of coping would then make some sense to us (well, to me anyway). I mentioned before that I live only about 15 min from Rick and thought for about 2 seconds, a long time ago, of calling him and seeing if he'd be willing to speak with me, answer some of my questions about her. But I am just so against people inserting themselves into these cases and regardless of how badly I wanna know what made Cindy Cindy, I'll have to not know. It would be so nice to know though!

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 04:01 PM
I have always liked the following explaination

Shame is I am bad

Guilt is I did a bad thing

And real shame can be good as in I'll never do that again because I don't want to feel shame (it feels bad). Therefore, if you're in touch with yourself and you can admit you brought that on by what you did, shame acts as an internal punishment of sorts. (not false shame caused externally but shame for something one has brought onto theirself).

It you can never admit you are wrong, you cannot learn from feelings of guilt or shame. :twocents:

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm going to be really really interested to see what is left in Cindy's shell at the end of the trial with the guilty verdict and the penalty. This will be no quickie trial. And much of the evidence will be brutal and unarguable.

We know Baez will immediately scuttle off stage left to whatever life holds for him. But what will Cindy do? Collapse at the absolutely enormity of the crime? Because what she has been fighting since day 31 has been that one word - guilty. Or will she come out swinging. I'm really not sure.....

I'd assume swinging, but then again, that's a long long time to hold all that together, and the SA will be chopping away at all her theories during the trial. So maybe she will just be a puddle on the floor...

Forgot the main part - because Cindy knows in her heart ICA is guilty.

I pray that somebody will decide to love her enough by then to get her help so she has the proper support once the trial starts so she will have help accepting and coming to terms with the truth and won't be allowed to swallow it down and ignore it as she has been. I keep telling myself somebody has to love this woman enough, don't they?! It's sad to see everyone just allows her to continue destroying herself.

wildchild1961
08-26-2010, 04:06 PM
]I know everyone is pretty bent out of shape about Cindy's behavior but I am expressing my personal observations and viewpoint. I'd like a much more intense study of her before I make really sweeping statements.[/B]

We only see media clips, interviews, depos etc., and those are life slices, that we can make assumptions from. Who knows what the heck drives this woman and what influences she is under when we see her behavior. She definitely has only three wheels on her wagon, that I know for sure. But why? It is fun to guess.

But the thing is logicalgirl.. that is exactly how I feel as well. I am also expressing my personal observations and viewpoint and its not because I am bent out of shape about Cindy. It's how I truly see her. I agree with you that we cannot make broad sweeping statements based on just what we have seen, however.. "just what we have seen" is also the basis for your argument that she reacts because of shame. It can't work both ways... either it is how all of us can make comments and decisions about the "why's" of how she acts.. or none of us can.

I love being able to discuss things like this you :) You make me think! And that is ALWAYS a very good thing <gryns> please don't ever stop!

off to work now <sighs> I can read this site from work.. but I can't sign in.. so no posting for me for another 12 hours.. yuck! Everyoen have a great day :)

wild

wildchild1961
08-26-2010, 04:08 PM
I pray that somebody will decide to love her enough by then to get her help so she has the proper support once the trial starts so she will have help accepting and coming to terms with the truth and won't be allowed to swallow it down and ignore it as she has been. I keep telling myself somebody has to love this woman enough, don't they?! It's sad to see everyone just allows her to continue destroying herself.

I am not big on Freud's theory about mothers.. but in this case.. <scratches head> I would add one thing to the bolded part above...

AND HER FAMILY...

wild

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 04:15 PM
Lol, no dear friend. I am saying CA does not have a mental illness. She has personality disorders, quite a few in a collection. CA is more than aware of right and wrong in the legal sense. CA plays a role 24/7 depending on her audience. When in front of the media, she plays the grieving persona. At home, behind closed curtains, she is a witch on wheels. She could care less where ICA ends up. A box six feet under or behind bars in a cell. What CA does care about is her self entitlement; to project the image of importance that CA has conjured in her mind. Definitely the wrong way to do it, but then again CA is on a mission the media apparently wants to assist her with.

ICA is all together another issue. ICA has many of CAs personality plus disorders and she took her hatred towards CA to the ultimate extreme.

My post was directed towards CA.

This is when I start feeling a little sympathy towards KC though. If it's true her mother didn't want her, always competed with her, then KC would have felt that in her young life too. Can you imagine never being able to please CA? Maybe she was the crazy maker and GA and KC just gave up trying. It's hard to tell. IF KC really knows/feels her mother only cares about her own image and how this is affecting her, doesn't that make anyone feel sad for KC? It's not that long ago that she was a child - just saying.

And I realize this is about Caylee but it is all related.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 04:19 PM
But the thing is logicalgirl.. that is exactly how I feel as well. I am also expressing my personal observations and viewpoint and its not because I am bent out of shape about Cindy. It's how I truly see her. I agree with you that we cannot make broad sweeping statements based on just what we have seen, however.. "just what we have seen" is also the basis for your argument that she reacts because of shame. It can't work both ways... either it is how all of us can make comments and decisions about the "why's" of how she acts.. or none of us can.

I love being able to discuss things like this you :) You make me think! And that is ALWAYS a very good thing <gryns> please don't ever stop!

off to work now <sighs> I can read this site from work.. but I can't sign in.. so no posting for me for another 12 hours.. yuck! Everyoen have a great day :)

wild

Oh sorry Wild - I meant everyone post away and I may not necessarily agree but that sure as heck doesn't make me right!!!

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 04:29 PM
You're disappointed at how life treats you then all of a sudden a ray of sunshine comes into your life and is as quickly taken away. CA thought she had all bases covered by NOT sharing Caylee's birth with the birth father.....instead she has to deal with the child's mother who has done far worse than just ask for visitation. Sometimes things just don't turn out as you expected. Makes for a very angry person. jmo

Again, entitlement issues. Trust me when I say that my life did not turn out for me the way I expected - many challenges. But you must roll with the punches, cling to your faith and it's not your fault or yours, or yours, or yours.

People take 'normal' life scripts for granted when they seem to happen for many so easily. But life is not like that for a lot of people. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

So what you say makes me think 'entitlement' again.

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 04:39 PM
There is so much I'd love to know about Cindy because I think if we knew them Casey and her behaviors and ways of coping would then make some sense to us (well, to me anyway). I mentioned before that I live only about 15 min from Rick and thought for about 2 seconds, a long time ago, of calling him and seeing if he'd be willing to speak with me, answer some of my questions about her. But I am just so against people inserting themselves into these cases and regardless of how badly I wanna know what made Cindy Cindy, I'll have to not know. It would be so nice to know though!

This is funny OLG! How would you introduce yourself? Hi, I'm OLG, a blogger. It's a long story but I have a crazy mother and was once sort of nuts. We are both alot better now through hard internal work and proper medication.

Could you please tell me all about your nutty, crazy sister? LOL!

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 05:24 PM
This is when I start feeling a little sympathy towards KC though. If it's true her mother didn't want her, always competed with her, then KC would have felt that in her young life too. Can you imagine never being able to please CA? Maybe she was the crazy maker and GA and KC just gave up trying. It's hard to tell. IF KC really knows/feels her mother only cares about her own image and how this is affecting her, doesn't that make anyone feel sad for KC? It's not that long ago that she was a child - just saying.

And I realize this is about Caylee but it is all related.

I think you know I'm with ya on this but in case you don't, I am!

OneLostGrl
08-26-2010, 05:39 PM
This is funny OLG! How would you introduce yourself? Hi, I'm OLG, a blogger. It's a long story but I have a crazy mother and was once sort of nuts. We are both alot better now through hard internal work and proper medication.

Could you please tell me all about your nutty, crazy sister? LOL!

haha. Something like that. I'd probably toss in a bit of "False Consensus" (only because I'm pretty positive my thoughts about Cindy are correct) to get him to open up. I'm good like that.. I'm not gonna lie.. a mother like mine teaches her children young how to manipulate. :crazy: I'm still pretty nuts lol

countzero
08-26-2010, 05:49 PM
This is when I start feeling a little sympathy towards KC though. If it's true her mother didn't want her, always competed with her, then KC would have felt that in her young life too. Can you imagine never being able to please CA? Maybe she was the crazy maker and GA and KC just gave up trying. It's hard to tell. IF KC really knows/feels her mother only cares about her own image and how this is affecting her, doesn't that make anyone feel sad for KC? It's not that long ago that she was a child - just saying.

And I realize this is about Caylee but it is all related.

Tried to reply more than once with the right words.

No amount of digging will uncover the root of CAs issues. There are far too many people out in society among us just like CA, GA and LA who "float" through life's cycle. Some people figure them out immediately. Others suffer emotional and material loss when they think they "befriend" these types only to discover they were used.

These people don't have friends as we know it. They are simply acquaintances to them. Their motives are selfish and self-serving. Some murder but most just simply find "victims" destroy trust and move on. There is no love as we know it. There is no self-control in their actions. There is no personal responsibility for their actions as we know it. There is only one person who matters in this world and that is themselves.

There is no amount of mitigation, understanding or anything else one conjures up that will excuse the murder of Caylee or any other innocent child or adult. People who want to seek answers are looking for excuses to give for the behaviors exhibited by narcissistic and the many other personality disorders these people are labeled with. I am not being snary when I say this, because unless one has had personal and long term interaction, it is extremely difficult to relate the damage a personality disorder person can inflict. And you know, those who don't know, can make a false judgement about the person who has suffered at the hands of these types. The personality disorder type can be very convincing that they are right and their victim is wrong. So the victim is not only violated by the perp, but can be violated by society's ignorance of the problem.

rbbm:

I feel nothing but indifference towards ICA, CA, GA and LA.

To answer your question .... ICA could and should have done what so many of us have done. Leave. ICA was conditioned to have little if any self-esteem. ICA, just as CA has, felt entitled to take what ICA determined to be hers. We have dissected this over and over again and still the only answer I see I positively am convinced of is this:

ICA made the conscious decision to murder Caylee knowing it was wrong both morally and legally. She just didn't care at that moment. Her importance was greater than Caylee's life. Her hatred of CA was greater than Caylee's life. Do not fool oneself that Cindy didn't know this. She knew it for years for she was the creator.

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 05:52 PM
I pray that somebody will decide to love her enough by then to get her help so she has the proper support once the trial starts so she will have help accepting and coming to terms with the truth and won't be allowed to swallow it down and ignore it as she has been. I keep telling myself somebody has to love this woman enough, don't they?! It's sad to see everyone just allows her to continue destroying herself.

I've been thinking about this post. It shows a very loving spirit. But remember when Rick tried to talk some truth into CA? It ended up being a shouting match, name calling event. Then they went there separate ways again.

I wonder if SP ever tries to talk truth with her daughter and how that goes. CA may be one of those people who just cannot listen or see any other view other than her own. Your neighbor, Rick (lol), did try to confront CA with the truth. It turned out sounding like more of an attack but that's because he became so frustrated hearing her denials. Everyone else seems to play along with CA and if they don't, look out - you're out!

The only thing that kind of got me is when LE was questioning RP, they asked him if CA lies a lot and a few other character assault type questions. He softened up a bit and said 'no'. I thought :waitasec: that's interesting.

Woe.be.gone
08-26-2010, 06:07 PM
Tried to reply more than once with the right words.

No amount of digging will uncover the root of CAs issues. There are far too many people out in society among us just like CA, GA and LA who "float" through life's cycle. Some people figure them out immediately. Others suffer emotional and material loss when they think they "befriend" these types only to discover they were used.

These people don't have friends as we know it. They are simply acquaintances to them. Their motives are selfish and self-serving. Some murder but most just simply find "victims" destroy trust and move on. There is no love as we know it. There is no self-control in their actions. There is no personal responsibility for their actions as we know it. There is only one person who matters in this world and that is themselves.

There is no amount of mitigation, understanding or anything else one conjures up that will excuse the murder of Caylee or any other innocent child or adult. People who want to seek answers are looking for excuses to give for the behaviors exhibited by narcissistic and the many other personality disorders these people are labeled with. I am not being snary when I say this, because unless one has had personal and long term interaction, it is extremely difficult to relate the damage a personality disorder person can inflict. And you know, those who don't know, can make a false judgement about the person who has suffered at the hands of these types. The personality disorder type can be very convincing that they are right and their victim is wrong. So the victim is not only violated by the perp, but can be violated by society's ignorance of the problem.

rbbm:

I feel nothing but indifference towards ICA, CA, GA and LA.

To answer your question .... ICA could and should have done what so many of us have done. Leave. ICA was conditioned to have little if any self-esteem. ICA, just as CA has, felt entitled to take what ICA determined to be hers. We have dissected this over and over again and still the only answer I see I positively am convinced of is this:

ICA made the conscious decision to murder Caylee knowing it was wrong both morally and legally. She just didn't care at that moment. Her importance was greater than Caylee's life. Her hatred of CA was greater than Caylee's life. Do not fool oneself that Cindy didn't know this. She knew it for years for she was the creator.

Wow, this is a good answer - should be in a book.

Another thing that I've noticed, they want the good life (are jealous of those who have it - KC said that Zany or somebody didn't have to work, had a rich father or something like that) but collectively they are unwilling to work consistently and slowly toward financial security. I mean we'd all love to be rich probably but financial health is enough (or has to be) for some of us. They know their real status doesn't match the status they want to portray. GA often states, 'I'm not stupid, I'm smart enough, I know a few things'. He makes comments like this often which leads me to believe he actually wonders if it's true. He must not really be very smart - sorry.

countzero
08-26-2010, 06:13 PM
I pray that somebody will decide to love her enough by then to get her help so she has the proper support once the trial starts so she will have help accepting and coming to terms with the truth and won't be allowed to swallow it down and ignore it as she has been. I keep telling myself somebody has to love this woman enough, don't they?! It's sad to see everyone just allows her to continue destroying herself.

Good grief woman ... I have been pondering that myself within my own family. Conclusion is you can't. They outright refuse any advances of help.

They are always right. Their actions are always right. And they will wear you down until you make the decision to create distance from them.

It's exactly what Shirley and her sons have done. They want no part of the circus CA created. CA destroyed any type of compassion they might have felt for CA. You have to remember, CA has 50 years of this behavior under her belt. And she has perfected it. One doesn't bother to fight a battle they know they can't win. Although CA tries her dangest. But her family won't engage with her. They are smart.

countzero
08-26-2010, 06:18 PM
Wow, this is a good answer - should be in a book.

Another thing that I've noticed, they want the good life (are jealous of those who have it - KC said that Zany or somebody didn't have to work, had a rich father or something like that) but collectively they are unwilling to work consistently and slowly toward financial security. I mean we'd all love to be rich probably but financial health is enough (or has to be) for some of us. They know their real status doesn't match the status they want to portray. GA often states, 'I'm not stupid, I'm smart enough, I know a few things'. He makes comments like this often which leads me to believe he actually wonders if it's true. He must not really be very smart - sorry.

You bring up an excellent point about GA. His sister has money, lots of it. But no one in the extended family gave the As money. Not one that we know of.

They know CA and GA and have chosen NOT to partipate in supporting them. Not one of them participated in searching for Caylee. Their actions speak loud and hard about their feelings for CA and GA.

ynotdivein
08-26-2010, 06:58 PM
I've been thinking about this post. It shows a very loving spirit. But remember when Rick tried to talk some truth into CA? It ended up being a shouting match, name calling event. Then they went there separate ways again.

I wonder if SP ever tries to talk truth with her daughter and how that goes. CA may be one of those people who just cannot listen or see any other view other than her own.

RS&BBM for focus

You made me take a walk through SP's transcript again, and I do believe there are some "tells" therein about the piece I bolded up there... http://www.wftv.com/blank/18974289/detail.html Seems we're each viewing this through the lens of our own personal experience, and looking through my lens, what stands out in this interview is that SP doesn't seem to have challenged or confronted CA much herself. You have generations of avoidance/non-confrontation/denial, you end up with a bunch of anger (again, this through my lens)...

I'm not trying to blame an innocent elderly woman for KC's actions at all, but IMO, this is a systemic dysfunction. CA did not just spring fully formed upon the world like Athena bursting out of Zeus's skull. The total family dynamic goes far beyond CA/KC's issues.

:cow: and I have to say, I very much admire the folks here who can dissect the motions and interpret the law and the forensics, but I equally admire the folks here who can dissect the motivations and interpret the actions and the, well, the :banghead:. We're each here for a reason. (That is, two reasons--Caylee being the first.)

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 07:16 PM
You bring up an excellent point about GA. His sister has money, lots of it. But no one in the extended family gave the As money. Not one that we know of.

They know CA and GA and have chosen NOT to partipate in supporting them. Not one of them participated in searching for Caylee. Their actions speak loud and hard about their feelings for CA and GA.

What kind of people refuse to search for a 2 year old relative, despite their feeling about the parents or mother of the child?

And we don't know that no one in the extended family has NEVER lent the Anthony's money. We do know they haven't this time around, but that tells me they have had many negative money lending experiences prior to this. Either than or hearts of stone. Some events rise higher or should rise higher than family issues - like the loss of a two year old, to a violent death.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 07:21 PM
Tried to reply more than once with the right words.

No amount of digging will uncover the root of CAs issues. There are far too many people out in society among us just like CA, GA and LA who "float" through life's cycle. Some people figure them out immediately. Others suffer emotional and material loss when they think they "befriend" these types only to discover they were used.

These people don't have friends as we know it. They are simply acquaintances to them. Their motives are selfish and self-serving. Some murder but most just simply find "victims" destroy trust and move on. There is no love as we know it. There is no self-control in their actions. There is no personal responsibility for their actions as we know it. There is only one person who matters in this world and that is themselves.

There is no amount of mitigation, understanding or anything else one conjures up that will excuse the murder of Caylee or any other innocent child or adult. People who want to seek answers are looking for excuses to give for the behaviors exhibited by narcissistic and the many other personality disorders these people are labeled with. I am not being snary when I say this, because unless one has had personal and long term interaction, it is extremely difficult to relate the damage a personality disorder person can inflict. And you know, those who don't know, can make a false judgement about the person who has suffered at the hands of these types. The personality disorder type can be very convincing that they are right and their victim is wrong. So the victim is not only violated by the perp, but can be violated by society's ignorance of the problem.

rbbm:

I feel nothing but indifference towards ICA, CA, GA and LA.

To answer your question .... ICA could and should have done what so many of us have done. Leave. ICA was conditioned to have little if any self-esteem. ICA, just as CA has, felt entitled to take what ICA determined to be hers. We have dissected this over and over again and still the only answer I see I positively am convinced of is this:

ICA made the conscious decision to murder Caylee knowing it was wrong both morally and legally. She just didn't care at that moment. Her importance was greater than Caylee's life. Her hatred of CA was greater than Caylee's life. Do not fool oneself that Cindy didn't know this. She knew it for years for she was the creator.

We have no proof or even indication that CA hated, or hates ICA. That's an urban legend that has just kept on growing.

I also believe that ICA didn't hate Cindy - she felt nothing for her. I also don't think ICA loved Caylee - not in the deep mother/daughter/family connection we recognize. I think Caylee was simply something ICA used as a conduit to get what she wanted.
And I used the word something on purpose.

countzero
08-26-2010, 07:52 PM
We have no proof or even indication that CA hated, or hates ICA. That's an urban legend that has just kept on growing.

I also believe that ICA didn't hate Cindy - she felt nothing for her. I also don't think ICA loved Caylee - not in the deep mother/daughter/family connection we recognize. I think Caylee was simply something ICA used as a conduit to get what she wanted.
And I used the word something on purpose.

Dang, I don't like to disagree with ya, but .......

I don't need to have it written out in ink by either CA or ICA to determine whether there is hatred then indifference between these two.

I only know that based upon the videos, the lies and the emotional avoidance by both to understand there is/was a deep seeded hatred between them and the family. There is no respect, no boundaries within this unit of people. ICA let her temper slip when she cussed at CA and got tight fisted during a jail visit. CA let everyone in on her performance ability when she told ICA "well sweetheart, if you didn't lie to the police ......." during a jail visit. There is nothing but manipulation, deception and deceit among this unit of people.

There is no love for one another. There is a falsehood being portrayed as love for all outsiders. There is a huge disconnect between them all.

I do however agree with you on ICA and her non-relationship with Caylee. ICA was only a birthing vessel. Nothing more, nothing less. Caylee was an object to be displayed and used to make ICA appear to be a caring human. Just as I can bet ICA was to CA in childhood.

I do believe the only amount of truth ICA spoke of to anyone were her complaints of CAs controlling behaviors. I don't believe they were embellishments. After viewing CA and GA for two years now, I believe the mitigation specialist will tear Cindy and George apart at the seams. Lee and every other extended family member will be collateral damage.

countzero
08-26-2010, 08:00 PM
What kind of people refuse to search for a 2 year old relative, despite their feeling about the parents or mother of the child?

One that knows or suspects the child is deceased.

And we don't know that no one in the extended family has NEVER lent the Anthony's money. I was being specific about the case, not prior. But you're right about prior borrowing incidents.

We do know they haven't this time around, but that tells me they have had many negative money lending experiences prior to this. Either than or hearts of stone. Some events rise higher or should rise higher than family issues - like the loss of a two year old, to a violent death. rbbm: Totally agree. And an incident or more must have happened in the past to cause them NOT to participate. I remember GA stated his sister came up unannounced after the news broke and he wasn't happy about it.

We can agree to disagree, right :blowkiss: It's just that my experience and gut tell me I am spot on. Well, CA's behaviors tell me this too.

erynne936
08-26-2010, 08:54 PM
I pray that somebody will decide to love her enough by then to get her help so she has the proper support once the trial starts so she will have help accepting and coming to terms with the truth and won't be allowed to swallow it down and ignore it as she has been. I keep telling myself somebody has to love this woman enough, don't they?! It's sad to see everyone just allows her to continue destroying herself.

It doesn't matter how much you love or try to love someone who has narcissistic or borderline personality disorder, as I feel Cindy does. People like this are in deep denial of their issues and do not think anything is wrong with them. They think that everything is wrong with everyone else/the world. They do not take anyone else's efforts to get them help kindly or seriously because they do not think that they need help. People with personality disorders almost never seek/accept help - it doesn't matter how much they are loved. And frankly, they are often hard to love because of their mental illness and their complete denial that they have any issues.

MOO

elementary
08-26-2010, 09:34 PM
We have no proof or even indication that CA hated, or hates ICA. That's an urban legend that has just kept on growing.

I also believe that ICA didn't hate Cindy - she felt nothing for her. I also don't think ICA loved Caylee - not in the deep mother/daughter/family connection we recognize. I think Caylee was simply something ICA used as a conduit to get what she wanted.
And I used the word something on purpose.

I do agree that for a while, Caylee was useful to the perp. But Caylee was so much Kleenex to her.

I'm guessing that Cindy and the perp saw and continue to see each other as competition. Hatred is probably only one of many negative emotions for them.

I do think that the perp hates Cindy simply because psychopaths are eminently capable of negative emotion, especially jealousy and resentment, and acts of revenge for even minor attacks on their ego. They're 'sensitive' that way.

logicalgirl
08-26-2010, 09:58 PM
Dang, I don't like to disagree with ya, but .......

I don't need to have it written out in ink by either CA or ICA to determine whether there is hatred then indifference between these two.

I only know that based upon the videos, the lies and the emotional avoidance by both to understand there is/was a deep seeded hatred between them and the family. There is no respect, no boundaries within this unit of people. ICA let her temper slip when she cussed at CA and got tight fisted during a jail visit. CA let everyone in on her performance ability when she told ICA "well sweetheart, if you didn't lie to the police ......." during a jail visit. There is nothing but manipulation, deception and deceit among this unit of people.

There is no love for one another. There is a falsehood being portrayed as love for all outsiders. There is a huge disconnect between them all.

I do however agree with you on ICA and her non-relationship with Caylee. ICA was only a birthing vessel. Nothing more, nothing less. Caylee was an object to be displayed and used to make ICA appear to be a caring human. Just as I can bet ICA was to CA in childhood.

I do believe the only amount of truth ICA spoke of to anyone were her complaints of CAs controlling behaviors. I don't believe they were embellishments. After viewing CA and GA for two years now, I believe the mitigation specialist will tear Cindy and George apart at the seams. Lee and every other extended family member will be collateral damage.

Well dang it - we just don't agree so let's go for it - it's all a good discussion. I do believe ICA displays distinct psychopath behavior and has never done anything but manipulate Cindy to her hearts content. And we know she ignored most of Cindy's "controlling behaviors" except in things like demanding she come home to look after her two year old at 3 in the morning, or else to bring the child home - and ICA would respond to those behaviors by doing what Cindy wanted because and only because Cindy had something ICA wanted - which was access to money. But other than that - I believe ICA ignored her mother and has done for a long time, and just did or said what she pleased. I'll bet a bag of beans ICA has had incredible temper tantrums since she was a small child.

And Cindy, who wants some respect and control over the household she supports, never got it and never will, at least from ICA, and only superficially with George. The only "weapon" she has to deal with an unfeeling manipulative ICA is sarcasm, which I see the "sweethear"t remark as, and threats, which are empty. But in that same video, we see Cindy back right off when ICA has her tantrum. To me that is a slice of Anthony home life. I think Cindy is afraid of ICA and her temper. Because ICA had something Cindy wanted, which was a new chance, a sunbeam - Caylee.

But! I absolutely agree with your comments about ICA - two out of three aint bad! :blowkiss:

countzero
08-26-2010, 11:25 PM
LG, about the only thing I can add to your post, is to be indifferent of someone, you have to hate them first. You either hate them for what they have done to you, or you hate what they did.

Nope, it's not a conflict in my statement either. When one has demands and injustices put upon them for years and years, especially from the person who is suppose to love and protect you, your hatred towards them grows. Along with love, a sick love. Not as we know love. OLG and I see it as a passive/aggressive love. The individual administering the love hasn't a clue what love is either. They mimic what they see outside of their environment to outsiders.

If one is strong enough internally and KNOWS the difference, they remove themselves from the situation and move on with life. Hopefully one finds an individual who they can depend upon to help them sort through this. It's a damming soul who doesn't. The cycle just goes on in the next generation.

The ones who do manage to distance themselves and seek help still goes on with self-doubts and mistrust. Some may stumble alpng the way. That's part of lifes learning. Some may never trust another human, but learn of to life according to society rules.

I have said this many times and probably will say it over and over.

Life is NOT a rehearsal. There are no do-overs. You get one chance and only one. You can either go through life being bitter and angry. Or you can be the best you can and make contributions, no matter how small you think they are. No one can make these decisions for any one else. It is a personal commitment to change ones path in life.

ICA made the conscious decision she was going to make Cindy pay for all the injustices she felt Cindy caused her. Whether they were real or not. In ICAs mind they were real. ICA manipulated CA as much as CA manipulated ICA. They thrived off of each other. Neither one willing to let the other win. Again, I don't give ICA or CA a pass for their actions and complicity in Caylee's murder.

How do I know what I speak of? Been there, done that in my youth. ICA apparently didn't have a teacher or adult who would get involved. Or my guess is if there was one, CA made sure she manipulated the truth.

The interactions we have seen between ICA and CA, GA and LE are an act for outsiders. We only catch a glimpse of the true relationships when they slip out. CAs civil depo is a great example. It's a doozie of her controlling nature. LE/FBI is another of her lies to manipulate how she needs others to view and judge her. The last hearing is another of her preparing herself to be ICAs myrtar. And the email she recently sent to channel 6 of having grandous illusions of importance. CA moves from one role into another without blinking an eye. She doesn't need to research the role she needs to project as an actress would. It comes to her automatically. Just as ICA can cry and lie on demand. Stick a finger in their eye to produce tears.

CA even managed how to turn Caylee's murder into $$$$$. CA has found a new purpose and direction. And she is happy as a pig in mud following it. CA won't change her ways. She was right when she said she and ICA are made from the same cloth. Both are cold hearted individuals who feed off and enjoy inflicting emotional and physical pain on others. It is their choice of drugs.

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 12:40 AM
It doesn't matter how much you love or try to love someone who has narcissistic or borderline personality disorder, as I feel Cindy does. People like this are in deep denial of their issues and do not think anything is wrong with them. They think that everything is wrong with everyone else/the world. They do not take anyone else's efforts to get them help kindly or seriously because they do not think that they need help. People with personality disorders almost never seek/accept help - it doesn't matter how much they are loved. And frankly, they are often hard to love because of their mental illness and their complete denial that they have any issues.

MOO

I agree with you for the most part but I do not believe anyone is beyond hope. My mother (Borderline) was a very sick woman, to the extent of filing false rape claims on men because they dumped her, faking illnesses to the extent of having conned a dr into removing her gallbladder.. telling her 3 children she planned on poisioning our dinner so we could not create more just like us. She married a man dx'd with ASDP and allowed him to drain any bit of "normalcy" we kids had pretended to believe we had. I could go on but I'm sure ya get the type of woman I'm describing. But- I have seen her change in ways I never thought a person could.. don't get me wrong she's still a sick woman but the changes she has made in herself are amazing and IMO anyone that is committed to changing as honestly as she was/is can do the same thing if given the proper insight, motivation and tools. Borderline does not have a cure but with hard work it can stop running (and ruining) your life.

The problem is- sadly for a borderline personality often the work is too hard and old habits die hard. But there is hope and there is treatment and some, though few, can improve

txsvicki
08-27-2010, 01:00 AM
I just don't see all the manipulativeness that others see in Cindy. To me, it seems like she walked on eggshells trying to figure out Casey and get any truth out of her. The woman had her husband and daughter (according to Shirley) both taking money and charging up her credits cards. IMO George seems to have a personality disorder much more than his wife. He's allegedly stolen from the wife, shown violence, explosiveness with protesters, weak suicide attempt, manipulation by blaming his behavior on Cindy, been avoidant, reckless with money, allegedly cheated, and in statements heard by the public the subject always turns to being about him. If Cindy had been very controlling they wouldn't have done all that they did to her and the finances.

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 01:02 AM
LG, about the only thing I can add to your post, is to be indifferent of someone, you have to hate them first. You either hate them for what they have done to you, or you hate what they did.

Nope, it's not a conflict in my statement either. When one has demands and injustices put upon them for years and years, especially from the person who is suppose to love and protect you, your hatred towards them grows. Along with love, a sick love. Not as we know love. OLG and I see it as a passive/aggressive love. The individual administering the love hasn't a clue what love is either. They mimic what they see outside of their environment to outsiders.

If one is strong enough internally and KNOWS the difference, they remove themselves from the situation and move on with life. Hopefully one finds an individual who they can depend upon to help them sort through this. It's a damming soul who doesn't. The cycle just goes on in the next generation.

The ones who do manage to distance themselves and seek help still goes on with self-doubts and mistrust. Some may stumble alpng the way. That's part of lifes learning. Some may never trust another human, but learn of to life according to society rules.

I have said this many times and probably will say it over and over.

Life is NOT a rehearsal. There are no do-overs. You get one chance and only one. You can either go through life being bitter and angry. Or you can be the best you can and make contributions, no matter how small you think they are. No one can make these decisions for any one else. It is a personal commitment to change ones path in life.

ICA made the conscious decision she was going to make Cindy pay for all the injustices she felt Cindy caused her. Whether they were real or not. In ICAs mind they were real. ICA manipulated CA as much as CA manipulated ICA. They thrived off of each other. Neither one willing to let the other win. Again, I don't give ICA or CA a pass for their actions and complicity in Caylee's murder.

How do I know what I speak of? Been there, done that in my youth. ICA apparently didn't have a teacher or adult who would get involved. Or my guess is if there was one, CA made sure she manipulated the truth.

The interactions we have seen between ICA and CA, GA and LE are an act for outsiders. We only catch a glimpse of the true relationships when they slip out. CAs civil depo is a great example. It's a doozie of her controlling nature. LE/FBI is another of her lies to manipulate how she needs others to view and judge her. The last hearing is another of her preparing herself to be ICAs myrtar. And the email she recently sent to channel 6 of having grandous illusions of importance. CA moves from one role into another without blinking an eye. She doesn't need to research the role she needs to project as an actress would. It comes to her automatically. Just as ICA can cry and lie on demand. Stick a finger in their eye to produce tears.

CA even managed how to turn Caylee's murder into $$$$$. CA has found a new purpose and direction. And she is happy as a pig in mud following it. CA won't change her ways. She was right when she said she and ICA are made from the same cloth. Both are cold hearted individuals who feed off and enjoy inflicting emotional and physical pain on others. It is their choice of drugs.

great post!

And may I just add-

"If you're treated a certain way you become a certain kind of person. If certain things are described to you as being real they're real for you whether they're real or not" - James Baldwin

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 01:09 AM
I just don't see all the manipulativeness that others see in Cindy. To me, it seems like she walked on eggshells trying to figure out Casey and get any truth out of her. The woman had her husband and daughter (according to Shirley) both taking money and charging up her credits cards. IMO George seems to have a personality disorder much more than his wife. He's allegedly stolen from the wife, shown violence, explosiveness with protesters, weak suicide attempt, manipulation by blaming his behavior on Cindy, been avoidant, reckless with money, allegedly cheated, and in statements heard by the public the subject always turns to being about him. If Cindy had been very controlling they wouldn't have done all that they did to her and the finances.

The type of woman who'd allow themselves to be treated that way and allow it to happen again and again and STOP everyone from finding out the truth (like when he went to sports store and then told Cindy Casey didn't even work there, yet Cindy told him to stay out of it, and lying about a pregancy that is so obvious a CHILD could spot it, ) and holding nobody accountable, even enabling the behaviors, has something very wrong with the way they think, cope and reason. They did what they did because they knew she'd do nothing about it. The controling part, IMO was that they had to PLAY along to the outside world... they were her property. She re-invented Casey's entire life to suite the picture she wanted! Can you imagine what that must feel like?!

mitzi
08-27-2010, 01:57 AM
RS&BBM for focus

You made me take a walk through SP's transcript again, and I do believe there are some "tells" therein about the piece I bolded up there... http://www.wftv.com/blank/18974289/detail.html Seems we're each viewing this through the lens of our own personal experience, and looking through my lens, what stands out in this interview is that SP doesn't seem to have challenged or confronted CA much herself. You have generations of avoidance/non-confrontation/denial, you end up with a bunch of anger (again, this through my lens)...

I'm not trying to blame an innocent elderly woman for KC's actions at all, but IMO, this is a systemic dysfunction. CA did not just spring fully formed upon the world like Athena bursting out of Zeus's skull. The total family dynamic goes far beyond CA/KC's issues.

:cow: and I have to say, I very much admire the folks here who can dissect the motions and interpret the law and the forensics, but I equally admire the folks here who can dissect the motivations and interpret the actions and the, well, the :banghead:. We're each here for a reason. (That is, two reasons--Caylee being the first.)

One thing we know nothing about is, what sort of person was Cindy's father like before he became elderly, probably mellowed some. We don't know if maybe Cindy could have learned her ways from him. We just don't know and probably never will.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 01:58 AM
LG, about the only thing I can add to your post, is to be indifferent of someone, you have to hate them first. You either hate them for what they have done to you, or you hate what they did.

Nope, it's not a conflict in my statement either. When one has demands and injustices put upon them for years and years, especially from the person who is suppose to love and protect you, your hatred towards them grows. Along with love, a sick love. Not as we know love. OLG and I see it as a passive/aggressive love. The individual administering the love hasn't a clue what love is either. They mimic what they see outside of their environment to outsiders.

If one is strong enough internally and KNOWS the difference, they remove themselves from the situation and move on with life. Hopefully one finds an individual who they can depend upon to help them sort through this. It's a damming soul who doesn't. The cycle just goes on in the next generation.

The ones who do manage to distance themselves and seek help still goes on with self-doubts and mistrust. Some may stumble alpng the way. That's part of lifes learning. Some may never trust another human, but learn of to life according to society rules.

I have said this many times and probably will say it over and over.

Life is NOT a rehearsal. There are no do-overs. You get one chance and only one. You can either go through life being bitter and angry. Or you can be the best you can and make contributions, no matter how small you think they are. No one can make these decisions for any one else. It is a personal commitment to change ones path in life.

ICA made the conscious decision she was going to make Cindy pay for all the injustices she felt Cindy caused her. Whether they were real or not. In ICAs mind they were real. ICA manipulated CA as much as CA manipulated ICA. They thrived off of each other. Neither one willing to let the other win. Again, I don't give ICA or CA a pass for their actions and complicity in Caylee's murder.

How do I know what I speak of? Been there, done that in my youth. ICA apparently didn't have a teacher or adult who would get involved. Or my guess is if there was one, CA made sure she manipulated the truth.

The interactions we have seen between ICA and CA, GA and LE are an act for outsiders. We only catch a glimpse of the true relationships when they slip out. CAs civil depo is a great example. It's a doozie of her controlling nature. LE/FBI is another of her lies to manipulate how she needs others to view and judge her. The last hearing is another of her preparing herself to be ICAs myrtar. And the email she recently sent to channel 6 of having grandous illusions of importance. CA moves from one role into another without blinking an eye. She doesn't need to research the role she needs to project as an actress would. It comes to her automatically. Just as ICA can cry and lie on demand. Stick a finger in their eye to produce tears.

CA even managed how to turn Caylee's murder into $$$$$. CA has found a new purpose and direction. And she is happy as a pig in mud following it. CA won't change her ways. She was right when she said she and ICA are made from the same cloth. Both are cold hearted individuals who feed off and enjoy inflicting emotional and physical pain on others. It is their choice of drugs.

First big hugs!!!
But I gotta tell you - we are on different ends of a football field.

I am indifferent to many people and things - I simply have no interest in them, I neither love them nor hate them - they simply don't look interesting enough for me to investigate, so I move on to things I am puzzled about or curious or challenged by, and/or can learn from. Neither love or hate even get on the sidelines in this picture.

Cindy's civil deposition. Right. Classic bi=polar in manic phase - classic - right down to the way she was sitting. My guess why we are seeing none of the whacked out outbursts? She's on a daily dose of at least lithium and at least one other ant-depressant. You can try and talk me out of the last couple of sentences but it won't work because I've lived it. Truly. Years worth. Not budging on that one - I knew what Cindy was going to do before she did it in those videos. I made myself watch them when it was happening but I won't watch it twice. Too close to home.

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 03:55 AM
First big hugs!!!
But I gotta tell you - we are on different ends of a football field.

I am indifferent to many people and things - I simply have no interest in them, I neither love them nor hate them - they simply don't look interesting enough for me to investigate, so I move on to things I am puzzled about or curious or challenged by, and/or can learn from. Neither love or hate even get on the sidelines in this picture.

Cindy's civil deposition. Right. Classic bi=polar in manic phase - classic - right down to the way she was sitting. My guess why we are seeing none of the whacked out outbursts? She's on a daily dose of at least lithium and at least one other ant-depressant. You can try and talk me out of the last couple of sentences but it won't work because I've lived it. Truly. Years worth. Not budging on that one - I knew what Cindy was going to do before she did it in those videos. I made myself watch them when it was happening but I won't watch it twice. Too close to home.

:waitasec:

hollyhobby1973
08-27-2010, 06:11 AM
The type of woman who'd allow themselves to be treated that way and allow it to happen again and again and STOP everyone from finding out the truth (like when he went to sports store and then told Cindy Casey didn't even work there, yet Cindy told him to stay out of it, and lying about a pregancy that is so obvious a CHILD could spot it, ) and holding nobody accountable, even enabling the behaviors, has something very wrong with the way they think, cope and reason. They did what they did because they knew she'd do nothing about it. The controling part, IMO was that they had to PLAY along to the outside world... they were her property. She re-invented Casey's entire life to suite the picture she wanted! Can you imagine what that must feel like?!

Love reading your post's and replies OLG!!! I agree and I think CA has allowed all these things to happen. She allowd ICA to continue to steal and lie. I used to really have some pity for CA until she continued to deny that ICA could have anything to do with Caylee's disappearance/death. I know that denial is part of grief, but at some point you have to look outside of your own denials and see the bigger picture. IMO you can only be a victim of certain things once. If you continue to let someone treat you this way...well then you just become an enabler.

LambChop
08-27-2010, 07:14 AM
KC wanted out from under the A's household. CA saw Caylee as a chance to start over with a new daughter. KC eliminated that possibility. I think CA sees KC getting out of jail as a chance to start over again. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
08-27-2010, 08:27 AM
I watched a program last night, Nightline Prime...Secrets of the mind, why we do what we do...
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Prime/nightline-prime-secrets-mind/story?id=11394776


Neuroscientist had examined the brains of two serial killers, Tommy Sells and Joel Rifkin, they also looked into Chris Benois (famous wrestler who killed his wife son and then commited suicide). The frontal lobe of their brains were severly damaged, which is what turned them to violence and made them sociopaths...Very good show with much information....

The Brain and Violence


Martin Bashir takes a journey inside the mind of a psychopath, examining evil's origin in the brain and whether people can be born with a tendency for evil or violent behavior and if it can be detected in childhood.

Bashir visits death row for a close-up look at two of the country's most notorious serial killers: Tommy Lynn Sells and Joel Rifkin. Were they born to kill? It's a question researchers who study psychopathy have been hard at work to answer.

Bashir also speaks exclusively to the distraught father of Chris Benoit, the pro-wrestler who murdered his family and then killed himself. Doctors later describe how they believe Benoit had suffered extensive brain damage in the ring that drove him to murder. These doctors say the kind of brain damage found in Benoit's brain is the same damage seen in multiple pro-football players, who also met tragic ends after years of concussions and subconncussive blows on the field.
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Prime/nightline-prime-secrets-mind/story?id=11394776

I would love for ICA's brain along with CA's brain be examined. It would definately be interesting to see if they too have this extensive "brain damage" which might be the reason for the sociopathic tendencies we all tend to see in them...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

countzero
08-27-2010, 10:07 AM
First big hugs!!!
But I gotta tell you - we are on different ends of a football field.

I am indifferent to many people and things - I simply have no interest in them, I neither love them nor hate them - they simply don't look interesting enough for me to investigate, so I move on to things I am puzzled about or curious or challenged by, and/or can learn from. Neither love or hate even get on the sidelines in this picture.

Cindy's civil deposition. Right. Classic bi=polar in manic phase - classic - right down to the way she was sitting. My guess why we are seeing none of the whacked out outbursts? She's on a daily dose of at least lithium and at least one other ant-depressant. You can try and talk me out of the last couple of sentences but it won't work because I've lived it. Truly. Years worth. Not budging on that one - I knew what Cindy was going to do before she did it in those videos. I made myself watch them when it was happening but I won't watch it twice. Too close to home.
lol, not really on opposite ends. .... we are both closer to the 50 yard line than you think,

I don't believe CA is on any heavy medication that would change her demeanor now. She is as sharp and vindictive as before. She plays to her audience, switching her approach as needed to accomplish her plan. Meds don't cause the change; her strong will does.

What I predict is CA will finally show us (as we watch in horror, mouths in wide gasp position) during the sentence phase. JBarrett has not disclosed what ICA and others have conveyed to her about ICAs history. Only then will we find out. I firmly believe we will hear stories of physical beatings and mental beat downs ...... and all administered by the hands of Cindy. CA will be publicly undressed down to her soul by this report and she will not be able to stop it. And people will believe it because of her past behaviors. It will cause such a rage in her.

And I for one won't feel pity because she has been exposed for the person she is. No pity for ICA either. Only sadness that an innocent child as Caylee was, she had to be part of that dysfunctional unit.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 10:27 AM
I think the huge difference between your thoughts and mine is that I accept ICA is a psychopath - always has been and always will be. So with a psychopath, there is no love/hate battle - since they simply don't have even the basis of feelings you and I have.

And unless Barrett or any other mitigation specialist can verify any incidents ICA speaks about, why would anyone believe one word of what ICA says? She has proven herself to be a liar of a much deeper kind than I can even comprehend.

I just don't see Cindy having the personal power some of you are prepared to give her. I agree she has tried just about every kind of manipulation possible to get ICA to conform, and clearly made little or no difference to ICA's behavior - but being this powerhouse you describe her as being? I don't see it - and as I said before - while Cindy may be trying passive/aggressive behavior, ICA is not in the loop at all - she doesn't care and never has. And Cindy is clearly medicated. Compare her 911 testimony to her civil disposition - she isn't that much of an actress. Her body language is completely different, as is her eye movement - everything about her. And I'm not talking about her physical appearance - she's had personal grooming what a grieving grandmother should look like advise - I'm speaking of much deeper than than. I agree Cindy is a silly - no ridiculous woman whose behavior is unrecognizable to any one who expects "normal" behavior - but powerful? The one who is running the whole show? Not to me. Seems more like an unruly teenager no one has put the brakes on. But the drugs are helping.
To me - while watching Cindy's antics gives me something to do while ICA is hidden away and the evidence rolls out, she is such a bit player in this drama when we get to trial, what she thinks or does will not matter at all.

LiveLaughLuv
08-27-2010, 10:40 AM
On that program last night. The psychopath wants control, wants to control everyone and everything...which is why, I believe CA and ICA have always bumped heads. Each wanting to control the other and the family...which was the battle with precious Caylee..IMO I do see ICA more defined than CA but I do believe they both have those traits...JMHO

I'm telling you, the program I saw last night, surely opened my eyes..Did anyone else watch???

Justice for Caylee

countzero
08-27-2010, 11:14 AM
I think the huge difference between your thoughts and mine is that I accept ICA is a psychopath - always has been and always will be. So with a psychopath, there is no love/hate battle - since they simply don't have even the basis of feelings you and I have.

And unless Barrett or any other mitigation specialist can verify any incidents ICA speaks about, why would anyone believe one word of what ICA says? She has proven herself to be a liar of a much deeper kind than I can even comprehend.

I just don't see Cindy having the personal power some of you are prepared to give her. I agree she has tried just about every kind of manipulation possible to get ICA to conform, and clearly made little or no difference to ICA's behavior - but being this powerhouse you describe her as being? I don't see it - and as I said before - while Cindy may be trying passive/aggressive behavior, ICA is not in the loop at all - she doesn't care and never has. And Cindy is clearly medicated. Compare her 911 testimony to her civil disposition - she isn't that much of an actress. Her body language is completely different, as is her eye movement - everything about her. And I'm not talking about her physical appearance - she's had personal grooming what a grieving grandmother should look like advise - I'm speaking of much deeper than than. I agree Cindy is a silly - no ridiculous woman whose behavior is unrecognizable to any one who expects "normal" behavior - but powerful? The one who is running the whole show? Not to me. Seems more like an unruly teenager no one has put the brakes on. But the drugs are helping.
To me - while watching Cindy's antics gives me something to do while ICA is hidden away and the evidence rolls out, she is such a bit player in this drama when we get to trial, what she thinks or does will not matter at all.
Well dear friend, I tried to snip your post for space, but couldn't.

Your first two paras ..... CA is a huge mixed bag of disorders, not one being more overt than the others. CA has psychopathic threads running in her cloth along with other disorders. She just isn't a full blown psychopath where ICA is, imho.

If ICA had not murdered Caylee and was only being accused of neglect or doing physical harm, then I could see where other family members and close friends would not disclose their inner most feelings of suspected abuse to an outsider. But this isn't the case.

The abuser, like I believe CA and subsequently ICA are, have years of experience hiding the abuse they dealt out. For outsiders to see it, the abuse has to be so obvious. And the abuser makes sure it isn't. The immediate family knows and out of fear of exposure allow it to continue. The abuser goes off then will profusely apologize, but in doing so will transfer the blame on the victim. See what you made me do ...... statements that clearly deny their actions or responsibility for the beatings.

Over time other family members, teachers notice it but are unable to prove it. Although they firmly remember. Which is what I believe will happen. Shirley, her sons, GAs parents, sisters, former teachers, former neighbors, friends will all have an input of their personal observations of family life within the A compound. I have to believe these people will be honest and be a voice for Caylee and stand up to CA. I don't believe any of them want it on their conscious they let Caylee die in vein to save CAs or ICA personal reputation.

They haven't publicly supported CA in the search for Caylee, they didn't buy into her and ICAs lies. They distanced themselves for reasons.

essies
08-27-2010, 11:25 AM
On that program last night. The psychopath wants control, wants to control everyone and everything...which is why, I believe CA and ICA have always bumped heads. Each wanting to control the other and the family...which was the battle with precious Caylee..IMO I do see ICA more defined than CA but I do believe they both have those traits...JMHO

I'm telling you, the program I saw last night, surely opened my eyes..Did anyone else watch???

Justice for Caylee

Here's the link-
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/mind-psychopath-11492876
I just watched the first segment-OMG!! How frightening!!

pip
08-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Enabling is a co-dependent behavior. The enabler also has something to gain. As long as Cindy enabled, KC would not grow emotionally, psychologically..therefore obtaining independence (self reliance) and maturity. She would remain in the co-dependent relationship where she needed Cindy. End result being, of course, that KC was not 'able' to take Caylee away from Cindy. If KC became defiant and posed a threat to Cindy's security with Caylee, I am guessing this is where the threat of getting legal guardianship of Caylee came into play, as KC was a disabled mother (thanks to a lifetime with Cindy). It was a real tug-of-war. Cindy needed Caylee in her home, so she allowed and encouraged (consciously and subconsciously) KC's inability to become self-reliant as a young mother. Cindy created a double-edged sword for for the damaged KC, resulting in what must have seemed to be a no way out situation..can't stay but can't leave, so she killed Caylee to break free from Cindy's clutches in the sick co-dependent relationship. Caylee had become an object in this war. The power struggle over Caylee had become so bitter, leaving Caylee behind with Cindy and fleeing for freedom was not an option.. KC knew she could not take care of Caylee on her own, but she would not let Cindy 'win'.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 12:07 PM
Well dear friend, I tried to snip your post for space, but couldn't.

Your first two paras ..... CA is a huge mixed bag of disorders, not one being more overt than the others. CA has psychopathic threads running in her cloth along with other disorders. She just isn't a full blown psychopath where ICA is, imho.

If ICA had not murdered Caylee and was only being accused of neglect or doing physical harm, then I could see where other family members and close friends would not disclose their inner most feelings of suspected abuse to an outsider. But this isn't the case.

The abuser, like I believe CA and subsequently ICA are, have years of experience hiding the abuse they dealt out. For outsiders to see it, the abuse has to be so obvious. And the abuser makes sure it isn't. The immediate family knows and out of fear of exposure allow it to continue. The abuser goes off then will profusely apologize, but in doing so will transfer the blame on the victim. See what you made me do ...... statements that clearly deny their actions or responsibility for the beatings.

Over time other family members, teachers notice it but are unable to prove it. Although they firmly remember. Which is what I believe will happen. Shirley, her sons, GAs parents, sisters, former teachers, former neighbors, friends will all have an input of their personal observations of family life within the A compound. I have to believe these people will be honest and be a voice for Caylee and stand up to CA. I don't believe any of them want it on their conscious they let Caylee die in vein to save CAs or ICA personal reputation.

They haven't publicly supported CA in the search for Caylee, they didn't buy into her and ICAs lies. They distanced themselves for reasons.

Have I missed some evidence or information here? Do we have information stating Cindy has beaten ICA? I understand we have the "choking" incident on Father's Day, but to my understanding, that is a rumor yet to be verified.
Beatings?

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 12:10 PM
Enabling is a co-dependent behavior. The enabler also has something to gain. As long as Cindy enabled, KC would not grow emotionally, psychologically..therefore obtaining independence (self reliance) and maturity. She would remain in the co-dependent relationship where she needed Cindy. End result being, of course, that KC was not 'able' to take Caylee away from Cindy. If KC became defiant and posed a threat to Cindy's security with Caylee, I am guessing this is where the threat of getting legal guardianship of Caylee came into play, as KC was a disabled mother (thanks to a lifetime with Cindy). It was a real tug-of-war. Cindy needed Caylee in her home, so she allowed and encouraged (consciously and subconsciously) KC's inability to become self-reliant as a young mother. Cindy created a double-edged sword for for the damaged KC, resulting in what must have seemed to be a no way out situation..can't stay but can't leave, so she killed Caylee to break free from Cindy's clutches in the sick co-dependent relationship. Caylee had become an object in this war. The power struggle over Caylee had become so bitter, leaving Caylee behind with Cindy and fleeing for freedom was not an option.. KC knew she could not take care of Caylee on her own, but she would not let Cindy 'win'.

Yes, I agree with your definition of co-dependant behavior, but to have co-dependency, both parties must be emotionally engaged. The only person ICA is engaged emotionally with is herself, IMO. I would call it more like ICA "toying"with Cindy.

pip
08-27-2010, 12:23 PM
Yes, I agree with your definition of co-dependant behavior, but to have co-dependency, both parties must be emotionally engaged. The only person ICA is engaged emotionally with is herself, IMO. I would call it more like ICA "toying"with Cindy.
I think KC was engaged also. She felt she needed Cindy (yet resented it). She was unable to sustain employment, go to college, become independent. Instead of Cindy helping her navigate those things to become independent, she sabotaged her by allowing her to lie about having a job, gave her money, bought all of Caylee's clothes, toys (in abundance) and provided medical, food, etc. The 'toying' with Cindy came from the resentment, but she was emotionally and physically co-dependent on Cindy for her survival, and Caylee's, before the resentment and entrapment became unbearable. Her only option out in her mind, was to find a husband to take Cindy's place. She could not provide for Caylee or herself.

countzero
08-27-2010, 12:32 PM
Have I missed some evidence or information here? Do we have information stating Cindy has beaten ICA? I understand we have the "choking" incident on Father's Day, but to my understanding, that is a rumor yet to be verified.
Beatings?

Nope, you haven't missed any evidence or info on that. My bad for not prefacing my comments. My post, after the first para was specifically about the mitigation specialist J Barrett and her findings and my thoughts on what family members and friends might say. I didn't say beatings, I said abuse. Physical beatings was in my earlier post and again I said it was in my humble opinion they occurred. No evidence has been presented to the media this occurred.

And dang if I didn't forget about the alleged choking incident. I will try better in future posts to eliminate confusion for the reader. I sometimes forget newbies are reading or that we have had these discussions long ago. :blushing:

My point was to stress that people should be more forthcoming with their observations of the As family history to J Barrett because Caylee was murdered. They might not have if only a charge of neglect was filed and Caylee was still alive.

essies
08-27-2010, 12:48 PM
Diane Downs is the closet example of sociopathy to ICA that I have seen. Just watch the clips and see the striking similarities to ICA-the innappropriate smiles, the narcissism, the eyes!! It's absolutely eerie!! IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0WHWUgigN8
This psychiatrist could be describing ICA!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6bTpzfC6mg

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 01:03 PM
Diane Downs is the closet example of sociopathy to ICA that I have seen. Just watch the clips and see the striking similarities to ICA-the innappropriate smiles, the narcissism, the eyes!! It's absolutely eerie!! IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0WHWUgigN8
This psychiatrist could be describing ICA!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6bTpzfC6mg

Thank you for posting this essies - and yes, I agree, sociopaths (psychopaths) are in a class of their own. To really understand them - and is that possible for us with "normal" neurosis, is to me to be forever thinking - WTH? And then I have to remind myself they didn't "get" this way, they were born this way and there is no cure.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 01:09 PM
I think KC was engaged also. She felt she needed Cindy (yet resented it). She was unable to sustain employment, go to college, become independent. Instead of Cindy helping her navigate those things to become independent, she sabotaged her by allowing her to lie about having a job, gave her money, bought all of Caylee's clothes, toys (in abundance) and provided medical, food, etc. The 'toying' with Cindy came from the resentment, but she was emotionally and physically co-dependent on Cindy for her survival, and Caylee's, before the resentment and entrapment became unbearable. Her only option out in her mind, was to find a husband to take Cindy's place. She could not provide for Caylee or herself.

I do believe ICA always had freedom of choice, and she chose to have Cindy provide for her and Caylee. And what Cindy didn't provide, ICA stole from her. Yes, I think ICA was engaged with Cindy, if you can call a cat taunting a spider "engaged". IMO

It all goes back to the behavior and "feelings" of a sociopath or psychopath. They do not have the capacity to think or feel like you or I do - so they use, or take, and will express what passes for emotion only if it fits their agenda.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 01:15 PM
Well, thanks everyone, this has been very interesting to hear everyone's view point and as you can also see - I have a far left of centre belief system regarding at least Cindy and ICA.

It sure isn't my intention to derail the ongoing conversation so :blowkiss:

Uncle. Peace. Out.

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 01:53 PM
I just don't see all the manipulativeness that others see in Cindy. To me, it seems like she walked on eggshells trying to figure out Casey and get any truth out of her. The woman had her husband and daughter (according to Shirley) both taking money and charging up her credits cards. IMO George seems to have a personality disorder much more than his wife. He's allegedly stolen from the wife, shown violence, explosiveness with protesters, weak suicide attempt, manipulation by blaming his behavior on Cindy, been avoidant, reckless with money, allegedly cheated, and in statements heard by the public the subject always turns to being about him. If Cindy had been very controlling they wouldn't have done all that they did to her and the finances.

It is difficult to ascertain who did what first. I agree that GA is as interesting of a study. They 'dance'. One would think CA would have had enough of him because she was the one with the steady income. Yet she blurted out that she didn't want to loose her husband. It's hard to imagine why not.

CA has been trying to manipulate or boss everyone imo. She thought it was okay to hand over the wrong hairbrush to LE, wouln't provide TES with a personal item having belonged to Caylee yet mailed one long distance to a psychic, sent letters to KC through a Lawyer thus manipulating the system. During interviews she keeps a physical grasp on GA. I'm not sure everything that she does is considered manipulation but she is trying to control the outcome her way. I think that's manipulation.

At first when CA acted the way she did while on the stand during the ZG thing, I sort of thought I understood why she was so angry. The reason being that she was in the midst of her daughter being accused of murdering Caylee and if that wasn't enough, here is this ZG person. Apparently, there are many, many ZG in the world. Anyway, as time went on, I recognized her behavior as something other than what I thought it was and realized that CA seemed proud when she thought she had the upper hand in the courtroom. I'm still confused about the ZG thing but that's a subject for another thread.

essies
08-27-2010, 01:53 PM
Thank you for posting this essies - and yes, I agree, sociopaths (psychopaths) are in a class of their own. To really understand them - and is that possible for us with "normal" neurosis, is to me to be forever thinking - WTH? And then I have to remind myself they didn't "get" this way, they were born this way and there is no cure.

LG-I wonder (and I think the science is too new for definitive answers) how much is nature and how much is nurture? And for each case there are individual factors-so IMO there can be no blanket statement that "this" is how they got this way.
Surely childhood abuse is a factor-but why does it affect some and not others.
There are those from priviledged backgrounds who become killers-ie. the Craigslist killer. So poverty is not always a factor.
Perhaps some are "born" and some are created by physical means-ie. Chris Benoit.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are many variables to the equation or formula of what makes a killer.
IMO Poor Caylee was the victim of a "perfect storm" of nature, nurture and some people either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring the red flags that were in plain sight!!:furious:

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:02 PM
One thing we know nothing about is, what sort of person was Cindy's father like before he became elderly, probably mellowed some. We don't know if maybe Cindy could have learned her ways from him. We just don't know and probably never will.

Funny you should mention this as I was just thinking about this yesterday.

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 02:02 PM
I watched a program last night, Nightline Prime...Secrets of the mind, why we do what we do...
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Prime/nightline-prime-secrets-mind/story?id=11394776


Neuroscientist had examined the brains of two serial killers, Tommy Sells and Joel Rifkin, they also looked into Chris Benois (famous wrestler who killed his wife son and then commited suicide). The frontal lobe of their brains were severly damaged, which is what turned them to violence and made them sociopaths...Very good show with much information....



I would love for ICA's brain along with CA's brain be examined. It would definately be interesting to see if they too have this extensive "brain damage" which might be the reason for the sociopathic tendencies we all tend to see in them...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

Ohh, I missed that one! I'll have to see if they have it on-line yet! You ever see I, Psychopath?

ETA link http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 02:07 PM
Enabling is a co-dependent behavior. The enabler also has something to gain. As long as Cindy enabled, KC would not grow emotionally, psychologically..therefore obtaining independence (self reliance) and maturity. She would remain in the co-dependent relationship where she needed Cindy. End result being, of course, that KC was not 'able' to take Caylee away from Cindy. If KC became defiant and posed a threat to Cindy's security with Caylee, I am guessing this is where the threat of getting legal guardianship of Caylee came into play, as KC was a disabled mother (thanks to a lifetime with Cindy). It was a real tug-of-war. Cindy needed Caylee in her home, so she allowed and encouraged (consciously and subconsciously) KC's inability to become self-reliant as a young mother. Cindy created a double-edged sword for for the damaged KC, resulting in what must have seemed to be a no way out situation..can't stay but can't leave, so she killed Caylee to break free from Cindy's clutches in the sick co-dependent relationship. Caylee had become an object in this war. The power struggle over Caylee had become so bitter, leaving Caylee behind with Cindy and fleeing for freedom was not an option.. KC knew she could not take care of Caylee on her own, but she would not let Cindy 'win'.

Great post!

Learned helplessnes.

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:11 PM
I agree with you for the most part but I do not believe anyone is beyond hope. My mother (Borderline) was a very sick woman, to the extent of filing false rape claims on men because they dumped her, faking illnesses to the extent of having conned a dr into removing her gallbladder.. telling her 3 children she planned on poisioning our dinner so we could not create more just like us. She married a man dx'd with ASDP and allowed him to drain any bit of "normalcy" we kids had pretended to believe we had. I could go on but I'm sure ya get the type of woman I'm describing. But- I have seen her change in ways I never thought a person could.. don't get me wrong she's still a sick woman but the changes she has made in herself are amazing and IMO anyone that is committed to changing as honestly as she was/is can do the same thing if given the proper insight, motivation and tools. Borderline does not have a cure but with hard work it can stop running (and ruining) your life.

The problem is- sadly for a borderline personality often the work is too hard and old habits die hard. But there is hope and there is treatment and some, though few, can improve

When you tell us these things, I can't help but feel for all you must have endured as a child ~ where there's life there's hope. :hug:

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 02:11 PM
LG-I wonder (and I think the science is too new for definitive answers) how much is nature and how much is nurture? And for each case there are individual factors-so IMO there can be no blanket statement that "this" is how they got this way.
Surely childhood abuse is a factor-but why does it affect some and not others.
There are those from priviledged backgrounds who become killers-ie. the Craigslist killer. So poverty is not always a factor.
Perhaps some are "born" and some are created by physical means-ie. Chris Benoit.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are many variables to the equation or formula of what makes a killer.
IMO Poor Caylee was the victim of a "perfect storm" of nature, nurture and some people either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring the red flags that were in plain sight!!:furious:

I believe both can be true. Like Cancer, I think people are born with the "psychopath" gene, some people end up exibiting the symptoms some don't.. some come from good homes, some come from bad homes. But I also believe the term is way over-used and completely misunderstood.

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 02:15 PM
Have I missed some evidence or information here? Do we have information stating Cindy has beaten ICA? I understand we have the "choking" incident on Father's Day, but to my understanding, that is a rumor yet to be verified.
Beatings?

The "rumor" came from Lee, no?

OneLostGrl
08-27-2010, 02:17 PM
When you tell us these things, I can't help but feel for all you must have endured as a child ~ where there's life there's hope. :hug:

Thanks :blowkiss: but please know I'm not looking for sympathy just trying to create awareness and let people know there is hope.

Snaz
08-27-2010, 02:28 PM
It is difficult to ascertain who did what first. I agree that GA is as interesting of a study. They 'dance'. One would think CA would have had enough of him because she was the one with the steady income. Yet she blurted out that she didn't want to loose her husband. It's hard to imagine why not.

~ Snipped and BBM ~

I don't believe Cindy feels any real love for George. After all, if she hadn't been worried about having to split "her" house with him, she would have already divorced him. I kinda think the reason she "doesn't want to lose her husband" might be because of how Cindy perceives she and George splitting up would make HER look to the world. Less than the perfect wife......

JMO. :twocents:

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:38 PM
I watched a program last night, Nightline Prime...Secrets of the mind, why we do what we do...
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Prime/nightline-prime-secrets-mind/story?id=11394776


Neuroscientist had examined the brains of two serial killers, Tommy Sells and Joel Rifkin, they also looked into Chris Benois (famous wrestler who killed his wife son and then commited suicide). The frontal lobe of their brains were severly damaged, which is what turned them to violence and made them sociopaths...Very good show with much information....



I would love for ICA's brain along with CA's brain be examined. It would definately be interesting to see if they too have this extensive "brain damage" which might be the reason for the sociopathic tendencies we all tend to see in them...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

On that program last night. The psychopath wants control, wants to control everyone and everything...which is why, I believe CA and ICA have always bumped heads. Each wanting to control the other and the family...which was the battle with precious Caylee..IMO I do see ICA more defined than CA but I do believe they both have those traits...JMHO

I'm telling you, the program I saw last night, surely opened my eyes..Did anyone else watch???

Justice for Caylee

Thanks LLL for bringing awareness of this program. I'm trying to catch up on the thread but will read the link when I'm done. Fascinating subject indeed.

Also, on a lighter note, studies of the brain are interesting as to understanding stroke victims and their potential for improvement, etc.

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:41 PM
~ Snipped and BBM ~

I don't believe Cindy feels any real love for George. After all, if she hadn't been worried about having to split "her" house with him, she would have already divorced him. I kinda think the reason she "doesn't want to lose her husband" might be because of how Cindy perceives she and George splitting up would make HER look to the world. Less than the perfect wife......

JMO. :twocents:

Well whatever the reason is, she keeps him around and he keeps coming back to her so that's what I mean by 'they dance' love or no love.

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:52 PM
I was just reading the last post on page 19 and before I could finish I thought 'has anyone, have I, ever seen CA cry?' I mean really cry. Most people when they really cry loose control over their face muscles. Loosing your granddaughter would be cause to really cry. I know we've talked about KC and her crying but have we ever witnessed CA crying?

If it were me, at the Memorial, I'd be ugly face crying - ya know? Blowing my nose, mascara running down crying - maybe even some shoulder heaving. Just saying.

Woe.be.gone
08-27-2010, 02:56 PM
Thanks :blowkiss: but please know I'm not looking for sympathy just trying to create awareness and let people know there is hope.

I know - just wanted to let you know that I care and recognize your point that some people can and do get help and change when and if they want too.

logicalgirl
08-27-2010, 03:20 PM
LG-I wonder (and I think the science is too new for definitive answers) how much is nature and how much is nurture? And for each case there are individual factors-so IMO there can be no blanket statement that "this" is how they got this way.
Surely childhood abuse is a factor-but why does it affect some and not others.
There are those from priviledged backgrounds who become killers-ie. the Craigslist killer. So poverty is not always a factor.
Perhaps some are "born" and some are created by physical means-ie. Chris Benoit.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are many variables to the equation or formula of what makes a killer.
IMO Poor Caylee was the victim of a "perfect storm" of nature, nurture and some people either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring the red flags that were in plain sight!!:furious:

I guess if you are really interested begin by reading the works of Dr. Robert Hare, who originated the list of characteristics of the psychopaths, wrote "the Psychopath Next Door" among other books and articles and absorb his case studies, lectures etc. He has worked in conjunction with many leading American behavioral scientists and continually does many speaking tours at universities there. There appears no doubt it is nature.

My nephew, who has made millions and millions in both the money markets and the New York Stock Exchange is easily recognizable as fitting this category. He is both ruthless and extremely charming. And rich.