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JBean
07-07-2009, 07:05 PM
Discuss the family dynamics and psychological profiles of Casey and family in a constructive way, please do so here.
thanks.:)

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #6

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #8

Casey & Family Psychological Profile #9

TotallyObsessed
10-04-2009, 01:43 PM
I was reading a political article which posted the following article on psychopaths and sociopaths as it applies to today's (as well as yesterday's) leaders. After reading it, I thought it would be interesting to apply it to KC and family.

Mods I hope I can link here. If this is a no-no, I apologize.

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/485#

I thought it especially interesting when talking about being born a psychopath or becoming one after a lifetime exposure to a psychopath (hello Cindy?)

I ALSO DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE'S POLITICAL VIEWS. I am only posting this here as it applies to the Anthonys. IMO

Beatrice
10-04-2009, 02:23 PM
This is Casey...Is it also Cindy?

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Reagan
10-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Hola... I posted this yesterday in the 'questions - no discussions' thread, but it got pushed back due to the duct tape fiasco of yesterday, so I hope it's ok to ask here. Any help would be appreciated.


While putting in my sig today I wondered if KCs psych evaluation that was ordered before she got released on bond would be admissible in the trial. I'm somewhat familiar with HIPPA laws, but I wasn't sure if it would be brought up.

I wanted to ask in one of the psych threads, but it looks like the last one was closed. So I wasn't sure if we were allowed to start a new one or what.

Although KC said that they showed nothing was wrong with her (can't remember her exact words) .. obviously we can't trust a thing she says. I'm dying to see her diagnosis.

SuziQ
10-04-2009, 02:53 PM
Reagan, good question about allowing her psych eval at trial. I don't have an answer for you. IIRC, the judge also said something like her evaluation was "hard to explain", or something like that.

Reagan
10-04-2009, 04:18 PM
Suzi, see my signature... Judge S says, "I cannot begin to describe it"... which makes her eval just that much more intriguing.

I can understand if she went to a regular psychologist before all this happened, that things wouldn't be admitted into trial due to privilege... but the fact that it was court ordered before she could be let out on bond, I would think it would be very relevant in her trial, and therefore admitted.

Any legal eagles out there that could help out with this question?

Brini
10-04-2009, 04:36 PM
This is Casey...Is it also Cindy?

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

No, IIRC. she's a BPD.

Brini
10-04-2009, 04:38 PM
Hola... I posted this yesterday in the 'questions - no discussions' thread, but it got pushed back due to the duct tape fiasco of yesterday, so I hope it's ok to ask here. Any help would be appreciated.

Wouldn't be relevant to the trial, I would think.

She's legally sane.

Beatrice
10-04-2009, 04:47 PM
What is BFD?

ZsaZsa
10-04-2009, 04:50 PM
What is BFD?

I think you mistook the P as in BiPolar Disorder, for an F.
CA's mother discusses the family history of it on George's side and says she thinks Casey has it.

Reagan
10-04-2009, 09:52 PM
Wouldn't be relevant to the trial, I would think.

She's legally sane.

I agree she's legally sane, which would help the State prove she knows right from wrong. It might be relevant to show frame of mind. The partying while her daughter is supposedly missing and such.
It may show that there's nothing mentally wrong with her (which would be very surprising to me) but even if it doesn't... it would still prove that if she is crazy, she still knows right from wrong. (i.e. hiding the body in deep brush, cleaning the trunk with paper towels..)

I think it could still be relevant even though this isn't a 'NG by reason of insanity' case. But who knows what the defense will try to pull outta their butts by the time this goes to trial.

Brini
10-04-2009, 10:16 PM
I agree she's legally sane, which would help the State prove she knows right from wrong. It might be relevant to show frame of mind. The partying while her daughter is supposedly missing and such.
It may show that there's nothing mentally wrong with her (which would be very surprising to me) but even if it doesn't... it would still prove that if she is crazy, she still knows right from wrong. (i.e. hiding the body in deep brush, cleaning the trunk with paper towels..)

I think it could still be relevant even though this isn't a 'NG by reason of insanity' case. But who knows what the defense will try to pull outta their butts by the time this goes to trial.

My guess is that the psych eval won't be revealed. Both because she's legally sane, and because the defense isn't going for an insanity defense.

The courts wouldn't reveal anything as intimate as a medical or psychiatric record just as a matter of course.

Brini
10-04-2009, 10:17 PM
What is BFD?

BPD-- Borderline personality disorder.

Brini
10-04-2009, 10:21 PM
I think you mistook the P as in BiPolar Disorder, for an F.
CA's mother discusses the family history of it on George's side and says she thinks Casey has it.

Not likely, IMHO.

KC wouldn't be able to be calm and controlled, when she wanted to do. Even with her tanrums and her one anxiety attack, she's been pretty cool, for a caught murderess who faces the DP.

A bipolar would likely be having manic episodes cyclicly, and not necessarily related to any circumstance. It would be noticed, and she would be put on meds.

Brini
10-04-2009, 10:21 PM
Reagan, good question about allowing her psych eval at trial. I don't have an answer for you. IIRC, the judge also said something like her evaluation was "hard to explain", or something like that.

Sociopathy IS hard to explain.

countzero
10-04-2009, 10:29 PM
Sociopathy IS hard to explain.
And its even harder to explain life living with one.

BondJamesBond
10-04-2009, 11:20 PM
I've stayed away from the psych threads...so...maybe well trodden ground...

I'm currently reading a book on Narcissim - one in my life & I'm looking for coping strategies - and finding striking similarities w/ the behaviors attributed to narcissim when compared to those demonstrated by both Cindy & Casey.

Just FWIW. I never realized how well-defined this behavior is...'till now. It is definitely a learning experience.

Brini
10-05-2009, 03:50 AM
And its even harder to explain life living with one.

You d--- betcha it is, hon! XXXXXOOOOO

Brini
10-05-2009, 03:51 AM
I've stayed away from the psych threads...so...maybe well trodden ground...

I'm currently reading a book on Narcissim - one in my life & I'm looking for coping strategies - and finding striking similarities w/ the behaviors attributed to narcissim when compared to those demonstrated by both Cindy & Casey.

Just FWIW. I never realized how well-defined this behavior is...'till now. It is definitely a learning experience.

Yep! And it is a key characteristic of several Axis Ii disorders-- BPD, NPD, APD.......

Knot4u2no
10-05-2009, 09:03 AM
I was reading a political article which posted the following article on psychopaths and sociopaths as it applies to today's (as well as yesterday's) leaders. After reading it, I thought it would be interesting to apply it to KC and family.

Mods I hope I can link here. If this is a no-no, I apologize.

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/485#

I thought it especially interesting when talking about being born a psychopath or becoming one after a lifetime exposure to a psychopath (hello Cindy?)

I ALSO DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE'S POLITICAL VIEWS. I am only posting this here as it applies to the Anthonys. IMO

Out of curiosity, I just ran the BRACE Character Profile correlations for Casey and President Obama. The only significant correlation, positive or negative, is for Type B characteristics deriving primarily from the Existential or Motivational domain. [Some of the Type C correlations are unclear because Casey had the same scores for all related items and there was no standard deviation. It would take someone more knowledgeable about statistics to make sense out that.] In any case, it seems they share a high desire/need for power and control, but their cognitive and behavioral functioning have little in common. President Obama is obviously more sophisticated in terms of intelligence, judgment, interpersonal skills, etc.

Russell

ClockWatcher
10-19-2009, 10:07 AM
I found this little blurb recently and it really helped me with making sense of HOW the A family can say some of the things that they do. Hope this will help other poster's too!



MOTIVATED REASONING, this allows them to ignore contrary information and develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information.

INFERRED JUSTIFICATION, allows them to support something they believe in strongly by working backward to find and justify information supporting it.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, when they are presented with information that contradicts preexisting beliefs, they try to relieve the cognitive tension by responding to the information defensively, ignore the facts, or when all else fails, they discredit the sources.

TotallyObsessed
10-19-2009, 10:09 AM
I always love it when this thread pops to the head of the class!!! It never ceases to amaze me just how loco this family is.....

cecybeans
10-19-2009, 10:23 AM
Yep! And it is a key characteristic of several Axis Ii disorders-- BPD, NPD, APD.......

imo, both CA and KC show the BPD ability to "turn on a dime" emotionally, going from zero to sixty. A lot of people describe living with a BPD-type as "walking on eggshells" because of how quickly they can strike out when they feel threatened. They are also expert at manipulating things to cast blame on anyone but themselves. Very difficult to manage a relationship with one.

Padua
10-19-2009, 11:34 AM
I've thought she was BPD. Always have and always will. JMO. MY OPNION ONLY DON'T GET ALL UPPITY IF YOU DON'T AGREE.

I don't take part in these discussions anymore because people get all weird if Casey's psych eval is brought up.

The only way I see the evaluation being part of the trial is if the psychologist takes the stand to defend his report. At least, this has been my experience when reporting my psych evals to judges.

Going back to work ----

Before I go back to work just wanted to say - I don't think CA's psychopathology is as severe as KC's. Remember, before all this happened she worked full time, made her own living, and was a productive member of society (tax payer, obeyed laws).

Now I'm really going back to work....I get no shows every day of the week but Monday! How does THAT happen?

erynne936
10-19-2009, 12:05 PM
I found this little blurb recently and it really helped me with making sense of HOW the A family can say some of the things that they do. Hope this will help other poster's too!



MOTIVATED REASONING, this allows them to ignore contrary information and develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information.

INFERRED JUSTIFICATION, allows them to support something they believe in strongly by working backward to find and justify information supporting it.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, when they are presented with information that contradicts preexisting beliefs, they try to relieve the cognitive tension by responding to the information defensively, ignore the facts, or when all else fails, they discredit the sources.

interesting... where is this from please? like a poster above, i believe i have an NPD and a BPD in my family and i find this stuff so interesting. this describes these people to a tee. i'd be interested to read the rest. TIA.

cecybeans
10-19-2009, 12:17 PM
I've thought she was BPD. Always have and always will. JMO. MY OPNION ONLY DON'T GET ALL UPPITY IF YOU DON'T AGREE.

I don't take part in these discussions anymore because people get all weird if Casey's psych eval is brought up.

The only way I see the evaluation being part of the trial is if the psychologist takes the stand to defend his report. At least, this has been my experience when reporting my psych evals to judges.

Going back to work ----

Before I go back to work just wanted to say - I don't think CA's psychopathology is as severe as KC's. Remember, before all this happened she worked full time, made her own living, and was a productive member of society (tax payer, obeyed laws).

Now I'm really going back to work....I get no shows every day of the week but Monday! How does THAT happen?

I'm thinking that any psych eval would just be used for mitigating factors (to neutralize the DP perhaps). Regardless, it's fascinating to look at each family member and search for trends that explain their behavior or responses, or help understand why they might react one way and not another.

It may be difficult to compare CA's psychopathology to KC's. She was raised in a different family environment, a different time period, and may not have been given the same ways out that she apparently afforded her daughter in terms of responsibility. I don't see SP enabling her the same way, for some reason; certainly not making the same kinds of excuses. There is also a social trend toward entitlement and avoiding independence amongst kids KC's age. I've been told UC Berkeley even has a class in the lengthening "gestation" period for young adults. It's like 26 is the new 20 and all that.

cecybeans
10-19-2009, 12:18 PM
I found this little blurb recently and it really helped me with making sense of HOW the A family can say some of the things that they do. Hope this will help other poster's too!



MOTIVATED REASONING, this allows them to ignore contrary information and develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information.

INFERRED JUSTIFICATION, allows them to support something they believe in strongly by working backward to find and justify information supporting it.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, when they are presented with information that contradicts preexisting beliefs, they try to relieve the cognitive tension by responding to the information defensively, ignore the facts, or when all else fails, they discredit the sources.

it pretty much describes the defense strategy, too, imo...

ClockWatcher
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
interesting... where is this from please? like a poster above, i believe i have an NPD and a BPD in my family and i find this stuff so interesting. this describes these people to a tee. i'd be interested to read the rest. TIA.

Sorry erynne, I totally stole part of a post from the comment thread on the 9/12 Tea Party Protest thingie in Washington DC. The poster was commenting on how some of those protesters could believe in the the outlandish comments that they were displaying.

http://pubrecord.org/multimedia/5191/revealed-party-march-really-about/comment-page-1/#comment-636


I have been searching in vain trying to find more info, similar to what that person included in their post, but so far, no such luck. Maybe when Brini logs in, she may be able to recognize if it came from a text book or some other publication, or if it's just the original poster's educated comment.

ClockWatcher
10-19-2009, 12:29 PM
it pretty much describes the defense strategy, too, imo...

No kidding! I wonder if cognitive disorders are a prerequisite for working with any Anthony family member?

erynne936
10-19-2009, 12:52 PM
Sorry erynne, I totally stole part of a post from the comment thread on the 9/12 Tea Party Protest thingie in Washington DC. The poster was commenting on how some of those protesters could believe in the the outlandish comments that they were displaying.

http://pubrecord.org/multimedia/5191...1/#comment-636


I have been searching in vain trying to find more info, similar to what that person included in their post, but so far, no such luck. Maybe when Brini logs in, she may be able to recognize if it came from a text book or some other publication, or if it's just the original poster's educated comment.



thanks - i liked that video ;) here is a little about it in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferred_justification

it's funny when thinking of the A's that this definition even explains why one would do something in a "backward sort of way"!!

"INFERRED JUSTIFICATION, allows them to support something they believe in strongly by working backward to find and justify information supporting it."

Padua
10-19-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here but the fact that the defense didn't hire their own psychologist to do an evaluation means the state's eval probably won't play that big of a part.

I have completed psych evals for judges (parenting evals, children's psych evals, juvenile sex offender evals)

I have also been hired by the defense to complete psych evals.

Just because she had one completed doesn't mean the defense will say - she's nuts she can't stand trial. Doubtful.

I think that may just be a movie misconception about psychologicals. I really don't think a lot of people really do understand what Psychologists do. We didn't spend 10 of thousands of dollars to complete school, complete research, and do a thesis just to be told we have no clue what we're talking about.

Sorry - I love talking about this stuff but every time a do at least one person pipes up and becomes negative. I don't mind discussing but I would like for people to back up their responses with research or data they have read withouth GOOGLING it. Its like when people come in with a google print out and try to explain their diagnosis with me like they know what they are talking about. I have a groan moment every time this occurs. Ugh.

And I'm not saying she's innocent. I just find it fascinating how these individuals function.

Padua
10-19-2009, 02:56 PM
Diagnostic Criteria for 297.3 Shared Psychotic Disorder

A. A delusion develops in an individual in the context of a close relationship with another person(s), who has an already-established delusion (KC)
B. The delusion is similar in content to that of the person who alrady has the established delusion (Caylee is not dead, KC didn't do it)
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by another Psychotic Disorder or a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition.

DSM - IV - TR p. 334

ClockWatcher
10-19-2009, 03:29 PM
Diagnostic Criteria for 297.3 Shared Psychotic Disorder

A. A delusion develops in an individual in the context of a close relationship with another person(s), who has an already-established delusion (KC)
B. The delusion is similar in content to that of the person who alrady has the established delusion (Caylee is not dead, KC didn't do it)
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by another Psychotic Disorder or a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition.

DSM - IV - TR p. 334



:eek: sounds like an psychiatric STD

Padua
10-19-2009, 03:59 PM
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:


:eek: sounds like an psychiatric STD

OneLostGrl
10-20-2009, 04:10 AM
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here but the fact that the defense didn't hire their own psychologist to do an evaluation means the state's eval probably won't play that big of a part.

I have completed psych evals for judges (parenting evals, children's psych evals, juvenile sex offender evals)

I have also been hired by the defense to complete psych evals.

Just because she had one completed doesn't mean the defense will say - she's nuts she can't stand trial. Doubtful.

I think that may just be a movie misconception about psychologicals. I really don't think a lot of people really do understand what Psychologists do. We didn't spend 10 of thousands of dollars to complete school, complete research, and do a thesis just to be told we have no clue what we're talking about.

Sorry - I love talking about this stuff but every time a do at least one person pipes up and becomes negative. I don't mind discussing but I would like for people to back up their responses with research or data they have read withouth GOOGLING it. Its like when people come in with a google print out and try to explain their diagnosis with me like they know what they are talking about. I have a groan moment every time this occurs. Ugh.

And I'm not saying she's innocent. I just find it fascinating how these individuals function.


Diagnostic Criteria for 297.3 Shared Psychotic Disorder

A. A delusion develops in an individual in the context of a close relationship with another person(s), who has an already-established delusion (KC)
B. The delusion is similar in content to that of the person who alrady has the established delusion (Caylee is not dead, KC didn't do it)
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by another Psychotic Disorder or a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition.

DSM - IV - TR p. 334


Interesting.

noonie
10-20-2009, 04:42 AM
She's a Scott Peterson!:furious::sick::banghead:

TotallyObsessed
10-23-2009, 11:10 AM
You know...I was just thinking after seeing little Somer’s mother on the news this morning....that is raw, true emotion. More like how I would act if ever in that horrible, horrible situation. I have always thought that I could probably never even form a coherent word for media interviews if in that position.....

So compare that to the reactions of the As.....have we ever, ever seen CA shed a tear or plead for the killer to bring Caylee back (in the beginning?) Did KC??? NEVER

That is just very, very telling. Either this family is truly psycho, the whole bunch of them, or they knew from the get go.

countzero
10-23-2009, 12:01 PM
You know...I was just thinking after seeing little Somer’s mother on the news this morning....that is raw, true emotion. More like how I would act if ever in that horrible, horrible situation. I have always thought that I could probably never even form a coherent word for media interviews if in that position.....

So compare that to the reactions of the As.....have we ever, ever seen CA shed a tear or plead for the killer to bring Caylee back (in the beginning?) Did KC??? NEVER

That is just very, very telling. Either this family is truly psycho, the whole bunch of them, or they knew from the get go.

I thought the same when I saw her interview. Total raw emotion. My heart just aches for the family.

bbm: Only tears I have seen displayed by either KC or CA is when they have poked their fingers in their eyes, then looked for the droplets to confirm "a" tear was displayed. Only raw emotion I have seen from either KC or CA is when they are caught in their web of lies and sheer hatred is spewed from their mouths. Jail video and JM deps are excellent examples of their raw emotions. Sheeze ..... get me a hanky ......... oh, they knew, CA knew .... GA/LA knew the evening of June 16, 08 and JB knew the day KC became his client and allegedly plucked down her one dollar, wrote out an IOU for $14K, and gave JB photos and evidence. THEY KNEW.

lizzysf
10-23-2009, 12:48 PM
It will be interesting after she is finally found guilty. I think we will be hearing alot more written about the family's psychology. These people are certainly off the charts in dysfunctional family dynamics.
Cindy has joined the notorious ranks with:
Mrs. Peterson
Mrs. Ruth Coe (fascinating case of family dynamics which was also made into a movie called "Sins of the Mother". We will see a made for TV movie about the Anthony clan as well i'm sure) http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20060831&slug=sexpredator31m

WholeLottaRosie
10-24-2009, 02:34 AM
This is all fascinating. You know, after reading the depos, I come back to a thought I had last fall. I still wonder if this was all set up. By the whole family. Hear me out. What do we really know about the background of GA and Ca and all? Some years back there was a case, in FL as it happens, where a woman had checked in a Disney Hotel (I think) and had her brother beat her up - really did hurt her. So she then said someone raped her/attacked her and of course was going to sue Disney, but, somehow they were found out. Well they were as it turned out Travelers, and I just have wondered if the Anthony's are. Maybe they just didn't see little Caylee as precious, they saw her as a way to pull a big scam and figured that Casey would be the sacrifical lamb, thinking they were all so clever she wouldn't do much time vs amount of money made. The more I read, the more that comes out, the more I wonder.

Kentjbkent
12-12-2009, 11:02 PM
I too was slightly surprised she didn't turn around, or for that matter, even acknowledge them when she came into the courtroom. It's almost like she's trying to show them that she's disowned them. So the argument about the jail visits being private seems a moot point since I don't think she really wants them to come see her anyway ~ unless it's to put money in her commissary account. MOO

But if you take into account the mind and thoughts of a sociopath, it really is NOT surprising. KC has no feelings of emotion at all, and any and all actions, thoughts or gestures are only for HER benefit. (Her actions towards her parents seem odd and surprising to us who are NOT sociopathic because no matter what, we FEEL the emotion of love between parent and child. KC doesn't have the ability to feel this devotion (imo)

The Anthonys no longer have anything to offer KC. They are basically "used up" in her frame of reference. They no longer exist so they are disregarded. At this point, only Baez and AL have anything to offer KC, getting her out of this mess, so her sole focus is on them!

Eidetic
12-13-2009, 10:33 AM
But if you take into account the mind and thoughts of a sociopath, it really is NOT surprising. KC has no feelings of emotion at all, and any and all actions, thoughts or gestures are only for HER benefit. (Her actions towards her parents seem odd and surprising to us who are NOT sociopathic because no matter what, we FEEL the emotion of love between parent and child. KC doesn't have the ability to feel this devotion (imo)

The Anthonys no longer have anything to offer KC. They are basically "used up" in her frame of reference. They no longer exist so they are disregarded. At this point, only Baez and AL have anything to offer KC, getting her out of this mess, so her sole focus is on them!


In my opinion, in Caseys mind they are the reason she is where she is.
I am sure she is aware of what has been said in LE interviews and is none too thrilled that comments made by her own family could end up hurting her case.
The phone call home when she told off Cindy before asking for Tonys number and instead of Cindy letting her have it, she handled her with kid gloves and passed her off to Lee because Casey didn't want to talk to her. I believe these are the accurate Anthony family dynamics, not the damage control that took place shortly after in an attempt to paint the public a picture of a close, loving family.

The public is not that gullible. There is a pattern here of Caseys temper, and her spotlight demanding personality spinning out of control if attention is taken from her beyond just that phone call. There are her police interviews, video of her controlling conversation in the jail house visits...

I hope at this point, the Anthonys are eager to get this ball rolling and truly do want the murderer to pay for what they have done. They have to, at some point be willing to accept the "all signs point to" slap in the face of reality when evidence is presented, as hard as that pill is to swallow, their Casey finally messed her own and everyone else even remotely involved in this case, lives up this bad. Especially their beloved Caylee.

They "just want the truth" and evidence, they had better practice making themselves sit there and listen to what is being presented.
They owe it to their grand daughter to acknowledge what has happened to her and who the evidence says is responsible for it.

Time to direct the anger at Casey for trapping them all in this nightmare.

JBean
12-13-2009, 09:46 PM
Bumpity bump
Good time to remind you about professional posters. The only professional that as been verfied in terms of psychological and character analysis is knot4u2no.

Please keep this in mind when deciding how much weight to put into each posters analysis of the situation. The deductions here and on previous psych threads are largely just our opinions and not based on any professional experience. This applies to all the threads and to all posts.
thanks


Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Eidetic
12-13-2009, 10:36 PM
What is BFD?


I think you mistook the P as in BiPolar Disorder, for an F.
CA's mother discusses the family history of it on George's side and says she thinks Casey has it.

Borderline Personality Disorder is quite fitting as well.

ETA, :iamashamed0005: I just saw Brini posted that is what she meant. I have got to stop replying before I read the whole thread...:loser:

Searchfortruth
12-13-2009, 10:46 PM
I would be very surprised if any of the family put the blame on Casey for Caylee's murder, ever. I don't know how to describe or name their dysfunction, but it certainly runs deep within their family. At times, I have thought that the cherade Cindy and George put on is for their benefit only. There seems to be no separation between Cindy and Casey, no boundaries. When Casey is publicly attacked, it is as if Cindy sees the attack as directed at her.

I hope that one day there is a book that explains in detail this family dynamic, in laymens terms, of course. I would like to understand.

LadyL
12-13-2009, 11:20 PM
I would be very surprised if any of the family put the blame on Casey for Caylee's murder, ever. I don't know how to describe or name their dysfunction, but it certainly runs deep within their family. At times, I have thought that the cherade Cindy and George put on is for their benefit only. There seems to be no separation between Cindy and Casey, no boundaries. When Casey is publicly attacked, it is as if Cindy sees the attack as directed at her.

I hope that one day there is a book that explains in detail this family dynamic, in laymens terms, of course. I would like to understand.

I want to know when & how the 'dysfunction', whatever it is, developed. The maternal grandmother seems to not have a problem with the truth or be in denial, although she decided not to pursue charges against KC but she was pretty blunt in that LE interview. We know that CA's one brother, although harsh IMO, isn't in denial. How did CA allow herself to get snowed so badly by a 'psychopathic' daughter?

JMO - I am no expert.

Kentjbkent
12-13-2009, 11:25 PM
I want to know when & how the 'dysfunction', whatever it is, developed. The maternal grandmother seems to not have a problem with the truth or be in denial, although she decided not to pursue charges against KC but she was pretty blunt in that LE interview. We know that CA's one brother, although harsh IMO, isn't in denial. How did CA allow herself to get snowed so badly by a 'psychopathic' daughter?
JMO - I am no expert.

As I have stated previously, I believe that KC is definitely sociopathic/psychopathic (opinion) and I suspect from the history we know about that CA also displays some type of personality dysfunction, but cannot say exactly what it is.

I think the clashing of these two obvious personality disorders created the dysfunction in this family.

JMO

azwriter
12-13-2009, 11:27 PM
But if you take into account the mind and thoughts of a sociopath, it really is NOT surprising. KC has no feelings of emotion at all, and any and all actions, thoughts or gestures are only for HER benefit. (Her actions towards her parents seem odd and surprising to us who are NOT sociopathic because no matter what, we FEEL the emotion of love between parent and child. KC doesn't have the ability to feel this devotion (imo)

The Anthonys no longer have anything to offer KC. They are basically "used up" in her frame of reference. They no longer exist so they are disregarded. At this point, only Baez and AL have anything to offer KC, getting her out of this mess, so her sole focus is on them!

Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people.
While the rest of us shake our head and say "How can she do that?" She can, because she is not aware others hurt or are uncomfortable. We, who are not sociopathic have such a difficult time understanding these people.
Believe me, Casey was not crying real tears in court the other day. Sure she was wiping her eyes. Cause that's what what she has learned is a sign of people crying. She was dabbing and wiping but recovered very quickly. She is just going through the motions. To her crying is exhibited by someone wiping their eyes. When she's looking at her finger afterward, she could very well be wondering where's the tears. She's looking for them. But she does not have any.
But, she does have anger and her red face and clutching her wrist is a sign of her anger to things she does not want to hear mainly about herself! That's why she reacted to the prosecutions argument of what Caylee when through. She wasn't wasting her emotions on what happened to her daughter, she was only feeling anger that someone else is saying these things about her.
End of my observations.

Eidetic
12-13-2009, 11:35 PM
Casey was jealous of Cindy and Caylee, Cindy also admitted to being jealous of Casey on tape...

Every time I hear this song it reminds me in a way, of what Casey did feel toward Caylee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLr2q5DIvHo

Kentjbkent
12-13-2009, 11:41 PM
Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people. While the rest of us shake our head and say "How can she do that?" She can, because she is not aware others hurt or are uncomfortable. We, who are not sociopathic have such a difficult time understanding these people.
Believe me, Casey was not crying real tears in court the other day. Sure she was wiping her eyes. Cause that's what what she has learned is a sign of people crying. She was dabbing and wiping but recovered very quickly. She is just going through the motions. To her crying is exhibited by someone wiping their eyes. When she's looking at her finger afterward, she could very well be wondering where's the tears. She's looking for them. But she does not have any.
But, she does have anger and her red face and clutching her wrist is a sign of her anger to things she does not want to hear mainly about herself! That's why she reacted to the prosecutions argument of what Caylee when through. She wasn't wasting her emotions on what happened to her daughter, she was only feeling anger that someone else is saying these things about her.
End of my observations.

And if you read up on sociopaths, they are completely unable to love....anyone.

(And very good observations you have!)

Searchfortruth
12-13-2009, 11:59 PM
From what I have read on sociopaths, they have different degrees of dysfunction. Some turn out to be very successful business men/women, others end up in prison. My question is, with Casey being a sociopath, was Cindy's dysfunction responsible for making her daughter's symptoms more severe ? I don't guess there is an easy answer to this question or maybe with the help of you WS'ers there is ?

mitzi
12-14-2009, 12:43 AM
Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people.
While the rest of us shake our head and say "How can she do that?" She can, because she is not aware others hurt or are uncomfortable. We, who are not sociopathic have such a difficult time understanding these people.
Believe me, Casey was not crying real tears in court the other day. Sure she was wiping her eyes. Cause that's what what she has learned is a sign of people crying. She was dabbing and wiping but recovered very quickly. She is just going through the motions. To her crying is exhibited by someone wiping their eyes. When she's looking at her finger afterward, she could very well be wondering where's the tears. She's looking for them. But she does not have any.
But, she does have anger and her red face and clutching her wrist is a sign of her anger to things she does not want to hear mainly about herself! That's why she reacted to the prosecutions argument of what Caylee when through. She wasn't wasting her emotions on what happened to her daughter, she was only feeling anger that someone else is saying these things about her.
End of my observations.

Bold mine.

I'd say your observations are right on! :blowkiss:

mitzi
12-14-2009, 12:47 AM
From what I have read on sociopaths, they have different degrees of dysfunction. Some turn out to be very successful business men/women, others end up in prison. My question is, with Casey being a sociopath, was Cindy's dysfunction responsible for making her daughter's symptoms more severe ? I don't guess there is an easy answer to this question or maybe with the help of you WS'ers there is ?

My thoughts are, the combo of genes KC got from Cindy and from George, made her symptoms more severe. Plus, can you imagine what spending 23 years under Cindy's rule would be like!? Gawd!, I think I'd end up committing suicide if I spent even 1 year with Cindy!

cecybeans
12-14-2009, 01:19 AM
I'm certainly no expert, but I've been fascinated with the field and how it is beginning to dovetail into neurophysiology the more we learn.

I have no idea what causes sociopathy, whether it is genetics or environment or a little of both. But an analogy comes to mind that I always use when contemplating what it must be like.

When children are very tiny, they look at the world very instrumentally, as if everything in it is an extension of themselves and exists simply to satisfy their own wants and needs. This is natural survival instinct for a being that is helpless to satisfy their own requirements and depends on others for sustenance and safety. Eventually they begin to separate sensations into awareness of other discrete entities, first their caretakers and then other people. Children begin to develop empathy for others around 4 or 5, I believe, although that is probably an average. When they do that, they are not in the self-absorbed prison in which all feeling is about themselves and they then have the latitude to and the joy of contemplating their own feelings or what others may feel. This development allows us all to become effective parents, sibling, friends and members of society if we are able to assign the same value for others' as we do for our own feelings, needs and wants.

However, many adults have difficulty transferring that feeling of empathy to others, even if they are not sociopaths. A dysfunctional domestic environment can kind of burn out the nerve endings and make people numb to normal feeling. Addictions can mitigate the ability to consider others' needs as equal to our own. There are a lot of things both physical and environmental that can disturb that equilibrium or warp it.

Since sociopaths' brain activity is started to be studied with fMRI's and other tools, it is becoming clear to scientists that they process information differently, even if the cause is undetermined. Maybe this will help us understand the differences between them and ourselves and even the different degrees of functioning among sociopaths and other personality disorders.

Sociopaths appear to exhibit the most severe dysfunction in terms of inability develop emotionally and become empathetic to their environment; they are always stuck in the prison of themselves and their own needs and wants. It makes them potentially dangerous to others, but there is something profoundly pitiful about them, as if they are strangers in a strange land, unable to be normal and forever cursed with imitating life instead of experiencing it fully.

We used to call the mentally ill evil and warehouse them, we used to house the mentally disabled the same way. We have come a long way in understanding the psyche, but we have a long ways to go. I think the double-edged sword with sociopaths is that they are often loved by their family, and that can make people blind to what they are capable of doing. But the fact they are loved by others, and appear to be such a common phenomenon, may make it easier to study the condition with compassion, understand it better, and perhaps someday create an effective treatment, or at the least, come up with better strategies to help them and us contain their toxic sides.

It does not change the evil that they can do, and we must always be on guard for that. Imooooooo.

wenwe4
12-14-2009, 01:36 AM
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here but the fact that the defense didn't hire their own psychologist to do an evaluation means the state's eval probably won't play that big of a part.

I have completed psych evals for judges (parenting evals, children's psych evals, juvenile sex offender evals)

I have also been hired by the defense to complete psych evals.

Just because she had one completed doesn't mean the defense will say - she's nuts she can't stand trial. Doubtful.

I think that may just be a movie misconception about psychologicals. I really don't think a lot of people really do understand what Psychologists do. We didn't spend 10 of thousands of dollars to complete school, complete research, and do a thesis just to be told we have no clue what we're talking about.

Sorry - I love talking about this stuff but every time a do at least one person pipes up and becomes negative. I don't mind discussing but I would like for people to back up their responses with research or data they have read withouth GOOGLING it. Its like when people come in with a google print out and try to explain their diagnosis with me like they know what they are talking about. I have a groan moment every time this occurs. Ugh.

And I'm not saying she's innocent. I just find it fascinating how these individuals function.

In my region, psych evals of the parents are often included into the court record in Juvenile court, usually as part of a CPS (Child Protection Svcs) investigation and making recommendations for resource referrals. I think they are an extremely valuable tool in helping individuals and families. Since she is no longer parenting, this may not open the door to get it in court. I would venture to guess that if CA had a copy of KC's psych eval when she was wanting to petition the court to gain custody of her Granddaughter, it would have been helpful (although I don't think KC was ever investigated by CPS previously). It is interesting that she never had prenatal care until at least the 7th month, here that would be at least a red flag at the hospital where the Mom delivered. If the baby were healthy and both appeared to be doing well together, it would not warrant investigation however.

OneLostGrl
12-14-2009, 03:45 AM
From what I have read on sociopaths, they have different degrees of dysfunction. Some turn out to be very successful business men/women, others end up in prison. My question is, with Casey being a sociopath, was Cindy's dysfunction responsible for making her daughter's symptoms more severe ? I don't guess there is an easy answer to this question or maybe with the help of you WS'ers there is ?

Well, ya'll already know what my vote is! lol

precious
12-14-2009, 04:22 AM
Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people.
While the rest of us shake our head and say "How can she do that?" She can, because she is not aware others hurt or are uncomfortable. We, who are not sociopathic have such a difficult time understanding these people.
Believe me, Casey was not crying real tears in court the other day. Sure she was wiping her eyes. Cause that's what what she has learned is a sign of people crying. She was dabbing and wiping but recovered very quickly. She is just going through the motions. To her crying is exhibited by someone wiping their eyes. When she's looking at her finger afterward, she could very well be wondering where's the tears. She's looking for them. But she does not have any.
But, she does have anger and her red face and clutching her wrist is a sign of her anger to things she does not want to hear mainly about herself! That's why she reacted to the prosecutions argument of what Caylee when through. She wasn't wasting her emotions on what happened to her daughter, she was only feeling anger that someone else is saying these things about her.
End of my observations.



Thank you. Extremely well said. I know someone who is exactly like KC.
You described her perfectly.

scorpion1110
12-14-2009, 10:26 AM
Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people.
While the rest of us shake our head and say "How can she do that?" She can, because she is not aware others hurt or are uncomfortable. We, who are not sociopathic have such a difficult time understanding these people.
Believe me, Casey was not crying real tears in court the other day. Sure she was wiping her eyes. Cause that's what what she has learned is a sign of people crying. She was dabbing and wiping but recovered very quickly. She is just going through the motions. To her crying is exhibited by someone wiping their eyes. When she's looking at her finger afterward, she could very well be wondering where's the tears. She's looking for them. But she does not have any.
But, she does have anger and her red face and clutching her wrist is a sign of her anger to things she does not want to hear mainly about herself! That's why she reacted to the prosecutions argument of what Caylee when through. She wasn't wasting her emotions on what happened to her daughter, she was only feeling anger that someone else is saying these things about her.
End of my observations.

VERY GOOD observations :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

cecybeans
12-14-2009, 02:09 PM
In my region, psych evals of the parents are often included into the court record in Juvenile court, usually as part of a CPS (Child Protection Svcs) investigation and making recommendations for resource referrals. I think they are an extremely valuable tool in helping individuals and families. Since she is no longer parenting, this may not open the door to get it in court. I would venture to guess that if CA had a copy of KC's psych eval when she was wanting to petition the court to gain custody of her Granddaughter, it would have been helpful (although I don't think KC was ever investigated by CPS previously). It is interesting that she never had prenatal care until at least the 7th month, here that would be at least a red flag at the hospital where the Mom delivered. If the baby were healthy and both appeared to be doing well together, it would not warrant investigation however.

You know, I've been thinking about this. Do we really know she had no prenatal care? All we know is that CA denied knowing she was pregnant to her coworkers and her brother. But she had sonograms up on the wall in Caylee's room (put there after she was gone, imo). Those are usually taken before the 7th month. Perhaps CA did know and took her to the doc earlier on but decided to act like the emperor had clothes on afterward and treat people like they were imagining things.

BetsyB
12-14-2009, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
Good post.
A true sociopath does not have any idea what others feel. They are completely oblivious to other's pain, physical, mental and spiritual. That's how they can committ murder, or inflict pain on others. Their mind has completely divorced itself from feeling anything toward other people. This is not really accurate. Sociopaths may, in fact, be able to identify what others are feeling quite competently. In fact, they may quite relish the emotional responses of others. They don't care, and don't empathize, but they do, in fact, have an idea what others feel. They themselves experience emotion (if not remorse and empathy) and therefore can identify it in others.

Manipulating others' emotions for sport is one of my sociopath father's favorite activities.

PaulaF513
12-14-2009, 04:33 PM
I've stayed away from the psych threads...so...maybe well trodden ground...

I'm currently reading a book on Narcissim - one in my life & I'm looking for coping strategies - and finding striking similarities w/ the behaviors attributed to narcissim when compared to those demonstrated by both Cindy & Casey.

Just FWIW. I never realized how well-defined this behavior is...'till now. It is definitely a learning experience.
IMO, Casey is a malignant narcissist

Harmony2
12-14-2009, 06:01 PM
These are two very interesting articles about psychopathy:
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

Destined as a psychopath? Experts seek clues
Researchers hope to identify at-risk kids and modify antisocial behavior
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30267075//

Mamabear1963
12-14-2009, 06:17 PM
If there were a vote I would vote for Narcissism for the entire family...Today show appearances and all....


:truce:

OneLostGrl
12-14-2009, 07:34 PM
This is not really accurate. Sociopaths may, in fact, be able to identify what others are feeling quite competently. In fact, they may quite relish the emotional responses of others. They don't care, and don't empathize, but they do, in fact, have an idea what others feel. They themselves experience emotion (if not remorse and empathy) and therefore can identify it in others.

Manipulating others' emotions for sport is one of my sociopath father's favorite activities.

Amen!

OneLostGrl
12-14-2009, 07:36 PM
IMO, Casey is a malignant narcissist

She has some of that in her, no doubt about that!

justthinkin
12-14-2009, 09:24 PM
This is not really accurate. Sociopaths may, in fact, be able to identify what others are feeling quite competently. In fact, they may quite relish the emotional responses of others. They don't care, and don't empathize, but they do, in fact, have an idea what others feel. They themselves experience emotion (if not remorse and empathy) and therefore can identify it in others.

Manipulating others' emotions for sport is one of my sociopath father's favorite activities.

BetsyB, I'm going to have to disagree with your explanation as well.
Sociopaths are keen observers of other people. They can see when something they say or do causes distress in another person. They can't relate to the distress though. They can observe the physical expressions in other people of happiness, sadness, love, but the meaning behind those expressions escapes them. They do not understand the emotion behind the physical display. They see they are different from the majority, and they learn that these facial, body expressions are important to others in some way, so they learn to mimic them. Still, it's just another means of manipulation for them.

They may be able to experience anger, but do they understand anger in others? No, again, they can't relate to any emotion outside themselves--lack of empathy. Now, I want to make it clear, I'm speaking of someone with full blown psychopathy, not someone who exhibits some of the traits. The further away we get from psychopathy the greater the emotional content of the person until we arrive at the range of what constitutes normal emotional experience in human beings.

Just the opinions of a self directed student of psychology.

Just Jayla
12-15-2009, 12:27 PM
CA must have to have affirmation with GA on a near daily basis-Whenever he is upset, or whenever he is slipping into his old doubts, she must comfort him by telling him to trust his instincts, to think of the sweet little girl he rasied...to ask himself if that sweet baby could hurt a fly...She lets him know that she will allow him to live in this imaginary world of self doubt, and that they are insulated.
It's like CA hooked him on her drug, and he was already weak to it. He will never have to rehab, because she enables him to block his old feelings. I don't have a lot of hope for him reverting to his initial ways, he is so entrenched now, and he can just as easily live like a zombie than feel the actual pain that would come from being intellectually honest with himself.

chckmate22
12-18-2009, 01:23 PM
I couldn't help but post this after reading this quote in a book

"Although it is the mother who contributes mostly in producing the conditions which we are going to describe, we usually find in the history of schizophrenics that both parents have failed the child, often for different reasons. Frequently the combination is as follows: A domineering, nagging, and hostile mother, who gives the child no chance to assert him/her self, is married to a dependent, weak man, too weak to help the child. A father who dares not to protect the child...because he is not able to oppose her (mother) personality is just as crippling to the child as the mother is"

Written by Silvano Arietti - Interpretations of Schizophrenia--

Although I dont believe she is a schizo it shows how much damage BOTH PARENTS DO!!!!

sharpar
12-24-2009, 04:43 PM
Poor KC yep she is run of the mill narcissistic not the more intriguing psychopath - even in crazy she doesnt hit the top tier.
What all these cluster B's want is you to believe the fiction they are selling and they know they have you when they achieve your rescue, fear or sympathy.
If Andera does bond with psychopaths then I say she has serious Family of Origin issues.
Brilliance is not going to convince 12 people that anything KC has done is acceptable
normal or appropriate .

21merc7
12-24-2009, 04:46 PM
Poor KC yep she is run of the mill narcissistic not the more intriguing psychopath - even in crazy she doesnt hit the top tier.
What all these cluster B's want is you to believe the fiction they are selling and they know they have you when they achieve your rescue, fear or sympathy.
If Andera does bond with psychopaths then I say she has serious Family of Origin issues.
Brilliance is not going to convince 12 people that anything KC has done is acceptable
normal or appropriate .

Thanks so much, I completely agree. Just a boring narcissistic spoiled brat. 12 people will know she is cares for herself, that is it, nothing interesting here, just killed her child. Plain and simple. (We all have family issues, but that does not make a psychopath.)

JBean
12-25-2009, 02:19 PM
bumpity bump

Reagan
12-25-2009, 03:26 PM
This is not really accurate. Sociopaths may, in fact, be able to identify what others are feeling quite competently. In fact, they may quite relish the emotional responses of others. They don't care, and don't empathize, but they do, in fact, have an idea what others feel. They themselves experience emotion (if not remorse and empathy) and therefore can identify it in others.

Manipulating others' emotions for sport is one of my sociopath father's favorite activities.

I agree with you... and I know I bring up this constantly, but only because it's a perfect example of KC and CA's dysfunction towards one another.

The jailhouse visit where CA puts on a rather poor performance... she's okay until she see's KC in the distance, then she immediately begins to break down, hoping KC will feel sorry for her and give her more info about Caylee. KC sees this and grins, and asks GA "Why is she crying already?". Then when CA gets on the phone, KC says in a very upbeat manner, "Hi mom!".

She knows her mom is hurting (though I think CA is acting more than anything at that moment to get something out of KC) and KC gets off on it.

I think she knows others emotions, but just doesn't care. Otherwise, how would she be able to mimic (albeit very poorly) emotions? Does that make sense?

elementary
12-25-2009, 04:47 PM
BetsyB, I'm going to have to disagree with your explanation as well.
Sociopaths are keen observers of other people. They can see when something they say or do causes distress in another person. They can't relate to the distress though. They can observe the physical expressions in other people of happiness, sadness, love, but the meaning behind those expressions escapes them. They do not understand the emotion behind the physical display. They see they are different from the majority, and they learn that these facial, body expressions are important to others in some way, so they learn to mimic them. Still, it's just another means of manipulation for them.

They may be able to experience anger, but do they understand anger in others? No, again, they can't relate to any emotion outside themselves--lack of empathy. Now, I want to make it clear, I'm speaking of someone with full blown psychopathy, not someone who exhibits some of the traits. The further away we get from psychopathy the greater the emotional content of the person until we arrive at the range of what constitutes normal emotional experience in human beings.

Just the opinions of a self directed student of psychology.

I agree. Human emotion to psychopaths is a bunch of emoticons.

doogiesgirl
12-25-2009, 09:34 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this. Do we really know she had no prenatal care? All we know is that CA denied knowing she was pregnant to her coworkers and her brother. But she had sonograms up on the wall in Caylee's room (put there after she was gone, imo). Those are usually taken before the 7th month. Perhaps CA did know and took her to the doc earlier on but decided to act like the emperor had clothes on afterward and treat people like they were imagining things.


This is what I find so strange....in GA's state depo he says that he learned KC was prego in April/May 05. So why lie to RIck at his wedding in June? I just don't get it. It was obvious to everyone, and GA says he already know by the time they went to Rick's wedding, so why the ignorant act? I am just LOST on GA/CA's motives(I mean it's not like she is just a few months pregnant and hasn't decided if she is going to abort or something---it's out there already--literally--staring everyone in the face!). This is one of the many factors that tells me growing up in that house was COO COO!!! moo

sleutherontheside
12-25-2009, 09:58 PM
This is what I find so strange....in GA's state depo he says that he learned KC was prego in April/May 05. So why lie to RIck at his wedding in June? I just don't get it. It was obvious to everyone, and GA says he already know by the time they went to Rick's wedding, so why the ignorant act? I am just LOST on GA/CA's motives(I mean it's not like she is just a few months pregnant and hasn't decided if she is going to abort or something---it's out there already--literally--staring everyone in the face!). This is one of the many factors that tells me growing up in that house was COO COO!!! moo

Given the impression that Cindy wants to appear as "happy and trouble free" they probably didn't want to be the topic of discussion where judgement and gossip would occur. I also wonder if it is possible, that at that time KC was still holding firm in her desire to give Caylee up. If they never admitted she was pregnant, then the family wouldn't judge CA for allowing their grandchild to be given away. KWIM?

txsvicki
12-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Once again, I believe everyone is wrong about Cindy who has a longterm marriage, worked for years, made a very nice home, and managed to care for her family and parents. I believe her problems are a result of years of being manipulated, stolen from, verbally abused, lied to, lied about, and having everything blamed on her. George has more symptoms of some narcissism such as manipulating, secretive, explosive, blaming others (especially Cindy), avoiding, suicide threats, illegal credit card (according to the grandma), easily influenced, boastful, and seeming to make things all about him. Even so, I think Casey was lucky to have a decent dad who probably didn't abuse her, who stayed with the family, and helped with her child. Nothing they did could have made Casey kill her toddler and treat anyone and everyone as if they were nothing.

sleutherontheside
12-25-2009, 11:04 PM
Once again, I believe everyone is wrong about Cindy who has a longterm marriage, worked for years, made a very nice home, and managed to care for her family and parents. I believe her problems are a result of years of being manipulated, stolen from, verbally abused, lied to, lied about, and having everything blamed on her. George has more symptoms of some narcissism such as manipulating, secretive, explosive, blaming others (especially Cindy), avoiding, suicide threats, illegal credit card (according to the grandma), easily influenced, boastful, and seeming to make things all about him. Even so, I think Casey was lucky to have a decent dad who probably didn't abuse her, who stayed with the family, and helped with her child. Nothing they did could have made Casey kill her toddler and treat anyone and everyone as if they were nothing.

You know txsvicki.....I have never been a hardcore CA opponent. Early on, I chose to stop posting, or contribute to posting, anything ugly about the parents. We only know what we have read, and that can not be considered FACT. CA has carried that family for years.....we CAN prove that. CA has experienced her share of heartache and disappointment in her marriage and family relationships. My opinion is not that CA is to blame. She can't be held accountable for anothers actions. BUT, I believe that her relationship with KC and the obvious deep issues between them do factor into KC's mindset. We were not in that house. We don't know the whole story. BUT, in the absence of first hand experience, we can see the tension between them, the anger, the dichotomy between what has been said in LE and media interviews, and what has been reported by 3rd parties. KC is a big girl and she is responsible for her actions, but a life of dysfunctional family relationships can skew your own judgement. I said early on, if the A family would just STOP talking, they would be more worthy of our sympathy and understanding.

21merc7
12-25-2009, 11:27 PM
. Nothing they did could have made Casey kill her toddler and treat anyone and everyone as if they were nothing.

Respectfully snipped:

You said it more clearly and concisely than I could. Every child is different, yes family stuff comes into play, but I get no reason to see murder from what this family did. They are your average American family. I was trying to over state with examples, but you got right to the point. Thank you.

JBean
12-26-2009, 04:14 PM
I wonder if KC were found to be guilty and additionally diagnosed as a sociopath, psychopath or other psychological disorder that may cause her to display similar behavior in the future, would that be used as an aggravating factor in favor of the death penalty?
As opposed to any kind of mental disorder being used as a mitigating factor, would it be used for just the opposite?

LambChop
12-26-2009, 05:21 PM
When you think about it if she is found guilty of killing her daughter and her actions after the fact, no remorse, out on the town, sleeping in the bf day after daughter last seen, pretty much having the time of her life (in her own words) what would stop her from doing it again? I think we all know the answer. Nothing.

Searchfortruth
12-26-2009, 05:25 PM
I wonder if KC were found to be guilty and additionally diagnosed as a sociopath, psychopath or other psychological disorder that may cause her to display similar behavior in the future, would that be used as an aggravating factor in favor of the death penalty?
As opposed to any kind of mental disorder being used as a mitigating factor, would it be used for just the opposite?I thought this was an interesting question JBean, so I went looking for an answer. I found a very small part of an answer, in the article linked below.

"The use of a mental disorder, even anti-social personality disorder (ASPD), to justify imposition of the death penalty should be impermissible under the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. This thesis, however, does not prevail today. In many jurisdictions, sentencing juries are permitted to use mental disorder as a factor, or the factor, warranting a death penalty."

https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=10+J.+Contemp.+Legal+Issues+247&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=47f8896c9b4bde549f7c31c9b1a0a35e

This also explains it well...

Psychopath brain and crime — mitigating or aggravating?

"I vote aggravating, because psychopathy is a permanent condition, and therefore argues against rehabilitation – the stated goal for mitigation in capital cases. Unlike other mental illnesses that can be treated — or even adolescent brains that grow up — psychopathy is not transient, it is very permanent unless white matter grows back. Therefore, the “my psychopathic brain made me do it” mental illness defense goes toward a more severe punishment, rather than a less severe one."

http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2009/12/04/friday-dysfunctional-roundup-psychopath-brain-and-crime-mitigating-or-aggravating/

JBean
12-26-2009, 05:47 PM
I thought this was an interesting question JBean, so I went looking for an answer. I found a very small part of an answer, in the article linked below.

"The use of a mental disorder, even anti-social personality disorder (ASPD), to justify imposition of the death penalty should be impermissible under the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. This thesis, however, does not prevail today. In many jurisdictions, sentencing juries are permitted to use mental disorder as a factor, or the factor, warranting a death penalty."

https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=10+J.+Contemp.+Legal+Issues+247&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=47f8896c9b4bde549f7c31c9b1a0a35e
Oh wow! Thank you. I just got to thinking, if they are not truly "mentally ill" ie insane asylum type disturbed, then why wouldn't the fact that they suffered from some disorder be used against them and apparently it can.
Now that I am thinking about it, I want to go check a few cases and see if they actually did do that in some that come to mind.
Thanks for doing my research for me :)

Searchfortruth
12-29-2009, 08:19 PM
I was reading that in the Diane Downs case the state actually brought up her MMPI results, by asking her if it was true that she had been diagnosed as a deviant sociopath. There was some issue after her conviction with that statement by the prosecutor, because deviant sociopath wasn't a real psychiatric diagnosis, but that's beside the point. My point is that even back then the state used the diagnosis of sociopath as part of their case against her. Apparently it didn't hurt.

I think that it's not uncommon for the state to use some of these personality disorders in their cases to help convict. It does make sense because most of them can not be treated and that factor alone makes release risky.

JBean
12-31-2009, 06:25 PM
bumpity bump bump

Searchfortruth
01-12-2010, 03:57 AM
My question is what is the difference between a child that fails to develop empathy in early childhood and a sociopath. Aren't children without empathy possibly set up to become sociopaths ? Some say sociopaths are born, not made. If there is a connect to children that fail to develop empathy and sociopathic behavior later on, does that argue against the "born that way" theory ?

sharpar
01-12-2010, 02:51 PM
Whether they are born or made they are walking among us - devoid of empathy gives alot of room for alot of behavior choices.

They are aware of what is right and wrong they CHOSE not to follow it.
They are choosing their actions and they keep chosing their disorder every single day they dont face up to the truth of what they are.

Searchfortruth
01-12-2010, 07:49 PM
Whether they are born or made they are walking among us - devoid of empathy gives alot of room for alot of behavior choices.

They are aware of what is right and wrong they CHOSE not to follow it.
They are choosing their actions and they keep chosing their disorder every single day they dont face up to the truth of what they are.I guess my interest lies in the causes of these conditions. I have never been one to excuse a persons behavior simply because they are sociopaths or have a personality disorder that leads to violence. The curiosity in me makes me question how they came to be.

I think some posters on here look at a psychological discussion of the criminal as providing excuses for their behavior. I don't see the connection. I think it's normal to try and figure out why these people function this way. We all know that a criminal will not be excused unless they fit the definition of legal insanity. Sociopaths and those with personality disorders don't qualify.

Tulessa
01-12-2010, 08:27 PM
My question is what is the difference between a child that fails to develop empathy in early childhood and a sociopath. Aren't children without empathy possibly set up to become sociopaths ? Some say sociopaths are born, not made. If there is a connect to children that fail to develop empathy and sociopathic behavior later on, does that argue against the "born that way" theory ?

I posted this in another thread but it will fit nicely here. this is some information from a friend of mine (Clergy person).


I passed along this thought to a friend of mine and here was her take on it. Used with permission of course.


There are some children that I met while working for a social service agency that seemed neurologically disabled, basically from birth, and unable to feel any compassion or connection with other children. As a consequence by age six or seven they were in DSS care because they represented a major threat to others as sexual offenders, potential murderers and arsonists. To others these children would seem to be pure evil in what they were capable of doing to others.

I just don't know, however, if one can know what we do about mental abuse and physical damage in children and still turn around and blame the child as evil.

These children were sociopaths. A handful were damaged from severe abuse, but what made the biggest impression on me was that there are children born this way with no particular bad track record of parenting. Saddest of all, of course, was the likelihood that they would require some kind of lifetime care because of the risk they presented to others.

wenwe4
01-12-2010, 09:16 PM
The nature vs. nurture question has long been studied and much research exists, however- it most often comes down to a continuum of both for each individual. Some of the best research were studies with twins who were raised in separate homes (some separated at birth). Barring a neurological disorder, a head injury or organic brain issues - the incubation of a sociopath lies within various forms of exposure to traumatic events and a primary care provider that does not or cannot meet the child's needs in a timely and loving manner. If an infant/child has a care provider who recognizes and appropriately meets their needs on a continual basis - a child learns to recognize when he feels content and then is able to recognize when another human is not feeling content. Within relationship is where we learn how to recognize and respond to other people's pain (ie: Daddy's give hugs and kisses for boo-boos and Mommy's recognize when their child is sad and offers open arms to the child before he cries). Once those emotionally regulating traits have been modeled for a child - they learn to do that with others.

AlwaysShocked
01-12-2010, 10:58 PM
"If an infant/child has a care provider who recognizes and appropriately meets their needs on a continual basis - a child learns to recognize when he feels content and then is able to recognize when another human is not feeling content. Within relationship is where we learn how to recognize and respond to other people's pain (ie: Daddy's give hugs and kisses for boo-boos and Mommy's recognize when their child is sad and offers open arms to the child before he cries). Once those emotionally regulating traits have been modeled for a child - they learn to do that with others."

Okay, but then bringing the above into the Casey Anthony situation, that would mean that as a small child Casey never got her needs met by either George or Cindy?

Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children.

Oh, and on the when did George know about the pregnancy, I felt that whole story he told was a lie. During the same statement where he said he knew about it in April or May he said his reaction was that he was "over the moon with happiness". Remember taht whole passage? It was kind of ludicrus, given the circumstances of your 19 yr. old unmarried daughter announcing - or in this case, admitting - that she's pregnant.

Now, I do think this family has been "weird" for a long time. All of them, including Lee. But for some reason I don't think things were that weird when Lee and Casey were really young.

Tulessa
01-13-2010, 10:11 AM
Here's an interesting read.


Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatry correspondent for FOX News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author.

Without having examined Ms. Anthony, I won’t hazard a diagnosis of her. But there’s plenty that’s clear from her demeanor and behavior.

Read on.............
http://health.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/dr-keith-inside-the-mind-of-casey-anthony/

Tulessa
01-13-2010, 10:12 AM
Interesting how he compares her with Scott Peterson.

wenwe4
01-13-2010, 11:17 AM
Okay, but then bringing the above into the Casey Anthony situation, that would mean that as a small child Casey never got her needs met by either George or Cindy?

Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children.

Oh, and on the when did George know about the pregnancy, I felt that whole story he told was a lie. During the same statement where he said he knew about it in April or May he said his reaction was that he was "over the moon with happiness". Remember taht whole passage? It was kind of ludicrus, given the circumstances of your 19 yr. old unmarried daughter announcing - or in this case, admitting - that she's pregnant.

Now, I do think this family has been "weird" for a long time. All of them, including Lee. But for some reason I don't think things were that weird when Lee and Casey were really young.[/QUOTE]

Regarding the "never got her needs met by GA and CA" is not exactly what I meant. KC certainly had her needs met by her parents as far as physical needs (housing, food, finances, cothing, toys etc). I believe the needs they met were needs that reflected back onto them in a positive way (ie: cute clothing purchased by CA to look "perfect" to others). But emotional needs, like recognizing KC's true emotions and responding to them appropriately. For instance, again the video of Caylee snuggling with GGP, it wasn't Caylee's or GGP's need for Caylee to hug and kiss him. There was no need to do anything but just enjoy those moments between this little one and her elderly Papa, but CA had a need she could not override and forced Caylee to stop her own emotional feelings and natural interaction w/GGP to comply w/CA's demand to hug and kiss. In that interaction, Caylee and GGP then had to stop their sweet moment of relationship to comply w/CA's need. This demand of "performance" from CA was not for the benefit of GGP or Caylee, it was purely to meet CA's need. A need for Caylee to perform for her. If a pattern of behavior overtime is established, where each time CA sees someone else's emotions don't fit w/CA's agenda, CA's agenda will always override KC's eventually. I think this speaks to the interaction between KC and her Mom in jail. "Will somebody just let me (speak/feel)?" In essence, KC may have grown up in a house w/an extremely "esteem sensitive" parent who feels their child must look perfect at all times in order for the parent to look perfect to the outside world. It is all about how they think others will perceive them (narcissism). The child is a reflection of themselves.

Phumi
01-13-2010, 12:50 PM
Oh wow! Thank you. I just got to thinking, if they are not truly "mentally ill" ie insane asylum type disturbed, then why wouldn't the fact that they suffered from some disorder be used against them and apparently it can.
Now that I am thinking about it, I want to go check a few cases and see if they actually did do that in some that come to mind.
Thanks for doing my research for me :)

I find it really troubling that a mental disorder can be used as an aggravating factor. As a culture we have still not overcome the stigma of mental illness. Nor do we understand it as well as we should. It wasn't that long ago that epileptics were confined to asylums and uteri were thought to cause "hysteria" and therfore needed to be removed.
As I've posted before, I don't pretend to know what society should do with criminals who are mentally ill, but using it to increase a prison term or justify the death penalty seems morally and ethically wrong to me.



Don't hit me with a trout.

JBean
01-13-2010, 01:17 PM
I find it really troubling that a mental disorder can be used as an aggravating factor. As a culture we have still not overcome the stigma of mental illness. Nor do we understand it as well as we should. It wasn't that long ago that epileptics were confined to asylums and uteri were thought to cause "hysteria" and therfore needed to be removed.
As I've posted before, I don't pretend to know what society should do with criminals who are mentally ill, but using it to increase a prison term or justify the death penalty seems morally and ethically wrong to me.



Don't hit me with a trout.I agree with you. Plus I don't even support the death penalty even for sane people.

Phumi
01-13-2010, 01:30 PM
I agree with you. Plus I don't even support the death penalty even for sane people.

No. Neither do I.

Tulessa
01-13-2010, 01:37 PM
I agree with you. Plus I don't even support the death penalty even for sane people.

At one time for many years, I didn't either. We even went to our DA and ask him not to seek the DP in my brothers brutal murder. But Caylee has changed my opinion on it.

Jenny60123
01-13-2010, 02:30 PM
"Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children. "

Respectfully clipped, this made me think for a minute. Perhaps Casey simply needed more than they had to give. She seems to be ultra needy. Perhaps no matter what they did for Casey, it was never enough? (I'm mainly making conversation, this in no way makes what she did to Caylee ok, nothing ever will.)

ynotdivein
01-13-2010, 02:45 PM
"If an infant/child has a care provider who recognizes and appropriately meets their needs on a continual basis - a child learns to recognize when he feels content and then is able to recognize when another human is not feeling content. Within relationship is where we learn how to recognize and respond to other people's pain (ie: Daddy's give hugs and kisses for boo-boos and Mommy's recognize when their child is sad and offers open arms to the child before he cries). Once those emotionally regulating traits have been modeled for a child - they learn to do that with others."

Okay, but then bringing the above into the Casey Anthony situation, that would mean that as a small child Casey never got her needs met by either George or Cindy?

Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children.

Oh, and on the when did George know about the pregnancy, I felt that whole story he told was a lie.

Respectfully snipped...

Children have emotional/developmental needs beyond comfort and enjoyable experiences. For example, they need to learn accountability and responsibility, in order to develop healthy relationships. From what I've read about the family, and considering what we know of KC's actions June 2008 to present*, GA and CA may not have met KC's need for clear behavioral boundaries and her need to take responsibility for her actions. They may have cared very much about her; so much that they protected her from the consequences of her behavior. GA's denial of the pregnancy fits in with this theory... which is MOO!

*By this I mean the lying, stealing, emotional manipulation, and failing to show concern for a daughter she had not seen for weeks.

Woe.be.gone
01-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Whether they are born or made they are walking among us - devoid of empathy gives alot of room for alot of behavior choices.

They are aware of what is right and wrong they CHOSE not to follow it.
They are choosing their actions and they keep chosing their disorder every single day they dont face up to the truth of what they are.

Thank you for stating the distinction above - THEY ARE AWARE OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG THEY CHOSE NOT TO FOLLOW IT. This is precisely why we begin teaching a small child right from wrong and usually we see shaping and positive responses as we go along over time. If we don't, we should be concerned and find out if there is something developmentally wrong (easier said then done I'm afraid). That said, it's a process and black and white answers are not always available (as in ADHD, etc.) but the worst thing would be to accept and ignore the behavior imo.

Excellent! Makes clear for me why people say there are sociopaths who never kill people, etc. It's not that they'd loose sleep over it if they did, it's just that they know they'd probably have to pay for their wrongdoing and don't want to risk sitting behind bars for their life because they care about theirself. Therefore, it's not their conscious, morals or feelings of brotherly love "do on to others as you would have them do unto you" keeping them from committing high crime; it's their intelligence and/or some semblence of forward thinking keeping them from crossing criminal lines. I can imagine then, if you have a child with sociopathic leanings and never enforce consequences for their bad bahavior, how those two combinations could be a breeding ground for creating a dangerous adult.

Then, we must ask ourselves, could there be something else lacking in a killer sociopathic person such as lack of impulse control to such an extent as in an animal, or some emotional lacking as in I don't matter to anyone (despite proof otherwise but they can't feel it or believe it) therefore, noone else matters to me if they're not "with" me. It goes beyond survival instinct though and into the domain of control.

Woe.be.gone
01-13-2010, 04:36 PM
Okay, but then bringing the above into the Casey Anthony situation, that would mean that as a small child Casey never got her needs met by either George or Cindy?

Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children.

Oh, and on the when did George know about the pregnancy, I felt that whole story he told was a lie. During the same statement where he said he knew about it in April or May he said his reaction was that he was "over the moon with happiness". Remember taht whole passage? It was kind of ludicrus, given the circumstances of your 19 yr. old unmarried daughter announcing - or in this case, admitting - that she's pregnant.

Now, I do think this family has been "weird" for a long time. All of them, including Lee. But for some reason I don't think things were that weird when Lee and Casey were really young.

Regarding the "never got her needs met by GA and CA" is not exactly what I meant. KC certainly had her needs met by her parents as far as physical needs (housing, food, finances, cothing, toys etc). I believe the needs they met were needs that reflected back onto them in a positive way (ie: cute clothing purchased by CA to look "perfect" to others). But emotional needs, like recognizing KC's true emotions and responding to them appropriately. For instance, again the video of Caylee snuggling with GGP, it wasn't Caylee's or GGP's need for Caylee to hug and kiss him. There was no need to do anything but just enjoy those moments between this little one and her elderly Papa, but CA had a need she could not override and forced Caylee to stop her own emotional feelings and natural interaction w/GGP to comply w/CA's demand to hug and kiss. In that interaction, Caylee and GGP then had to stop their sweet moment of relationship to comply w/CA's need. This demand of "performance" from CA was not for the benefit of GGP or Caylee, it was purely to meet CA's need. A need for Caylee to perform for her. If a pattern of behavior overtime is established, where each time CA sees someone else's emotions don't fit w/CA's agenda, CA's agenda will always override KC's eventually. I think this speaks to the interaction between KC and her Mom in jail. "Will somebody just let me (speak/feel)?" In essence, KC may have grown up in a house w/an extremely "esteem sensitive" parent who feels their child must look perfect at all times in order for the parent to look perfect to the outside world. It is all about how they think others will perceive them (narcissism). The child is a reflection of themselves.[/QUOTE]

:waitasec:

Definitely food for thought. Also those actions bleed into the no boundaries subject of human behavior along with the controlling natures some people have.

I'm thinking about how best to instruct a child then. How many times I've innocently said "give _____ a hug" with both subjects standing right in front of me. Possibly, I should have consuled the child in the car on the way to where we were going by suggesting that if he feels comfortable I'm sure Grandma or Auntie, would appreciate a warm hug from him. There are probably degrees of right and wrong, overkill, etc. When the child is very young a prompting to say "thank you" when handed something by another is probably okay. Modelling good behavior is always okay but I think needs to be reinforced with conversations about what good behavior is, why we need good behavior in regards to how it benefits you individually and how it benefits others, etc. Young boys are not always great observers imo and prefer to move quickly through events.

Thinking on these things reminds me of feeling uncomfortable when the room goes quiet - someone must break the silence eventually but who, how, when and why? That said, is it polite to get together and expect to be entertained and not contribute? It can be unnerving for a talkative person to sit across from a person who can only muster "yep" and "nope" answers. What I'm getting at is we must become more aware of individual boundaries, temperments that differ from our own, personalities and disorders of such, proper teaching venues and just a general awareness of how our well meaning tendencies may actually be harmful if taken to extremes. I swear, at my age, I have never truly assessed these things before among and within my relations. Homework time.

Woe.be.gone
01-13-2010, 05:01 PM
"Based on how they obviously adored Caylee, spent time with her and were interested in her, I would find it difficult to believe that neither of them cared much about their own children. "

Respectfully clipped, this made me think for a minute. Perhaps Casey simply needed more than they had to give. She seems to be ultra needy. Perhaps no matter what they did for Casey, it was never enough? (I'm mainly making conversation, this in no way makes what she did to Caylee ok, nothing ever will.)

I've always been advised that a child will act out to test the boundaries and it is the parents role to set them. If we don't set them, the child will interpret that as they don't care enough to set me straight or I guess it's okay for me to do this because there are no consequences.

There are many books on the subject of strong willed children that offer guidance to parents who want to do the right thing but face constant opposition thus making their job a lot more difficult. Some kids respond with obediance to the slightest correction while others will resist almost to their death it seems. Plus it's sort of funny when a woman has a first born who is easy going and even natured so the mother concludes that she is a great mother (which she is because she is mindful but things are easy) and then along comes little Jimmy! I'm not being sexist - just wrote it that way because I know those people. :crazy:

Casey does seem extremely needy but we also know beyond any doubt that there was serious denial going on in regard to her antisocial behavior with the stealing, lying and avoiding that took place in her life. The A's never reacted firmly with appropriate consequences imo.

TinaD
01-13-2010, 05:57 PM
I'm thinking about how best to instruct a child then. How many times I've innocently said "give _____ a hug" with both subjects standing right in front of me. Possibly, I should have consuled the child in the car on the way to where we were going by suggesting that if he feels comfortable I'm sure Grandma or Auntie, would appreciate a warm hug from him. There are probably degrees of right and wrong, overkill, etc. When the child is very young a prompting to say "thank you" when handed something by another is probably okay. Modelling good behavior is always okay but I think needs to be reinforced with conversations about what good behavior is, why we need good behavior in regards to how it benefits you individually and how it benefits others, etc. Young boys are not always great observers imo and prefer to move quickly through events.



A very interesting a thought provoking post. The piece I have quoted reminds me of a position I've always had, and am currently trying to outline to my son and his girlfriend (they have aone year old girl), which is OT for this thread so I apologise...... anyway, I have never thought it was right to insist that a child kiss, hug or have any bodily contact with another person, unless they want to. Saying "thank you" and other manners is different, it's just physical contact that I won't push. Children need to feel that they are in charge of their body and have the right to say "no".

Schmerty_Jones
01-13-2010, 06:42 PM
This is an extremely interesting thread, with appropriate relevance to the Anthony Family in general & Casey O'Marie :crazy:in particular. Thank you for starting this and for the many informative posts.!

wenwe4
01-13-2010, 07:54 PM
A very interesting a thought provoking post. The piece I have quoted reminds me of a position I've always had, and am currently trying to outline to my son and his girlfriend (they have aone year old girl), which is OT for this thread so I apologise...... anyway, I have never thought it was right to insist that a child kiss, hug or have any bodily contact with another person, unless they want to. Saying "thank you" and other manners is different, it's just physical contact that I won't push. Children need to feel that they are in charge of their body and have the right to say "no".

WGB & TinaD, Very insightful! I know we are ot, but I have to say that many a parent have kicked themselves for forcing their child to hug & kiss extended family members/friends/neighbors, only later to find out this person was a perpetrator. If nothing else, hopefully mods will keep this post out of the pl just for the general message to the masses. Talk to your kids ahead of time and keep mindful if they really don't want to hug someone - they should never have to.

Ok, we return you back your regularly scheduled topic.

ynotdivein
01-13-2010, 11:04 PM
There are many books on the subject of strong willed children that offer guidance to parents who want to do the right thing but face constant opposition thus making their job a lot more difficult. Some kids respond with obediance to the slightest correction while others will resist almost to their death it seems. Plus it's sort of funny when a woman has a first born who is easy going and even natured so the mother concludes that she is a great mother (which she is because she is mindful but things are easy) and then along comes little Jimmy! I'm not being sexist - just wrote it that way because I know those people. :crazy:

Casey does seem extremely needy but we also know beyond any doubt that there was serious denial going on in regard to her antisocial behavior with the stealing, lying and avoiding that took place in her life. The A's never reacted firmly with appropriate consequences imo.

Thank you for your post, WBG. I snipped to focus on this section because you got me thinking about research on birth order and personality. (John Bradshaw's work touches on birth order in the context of family dysfunctions, particularly substance abuse.) Firstborns supposedly tend to be the more buttoned-down, less demonstrative, more reserved ones, more sensitive to managing or maintaining a peaceful family dynamic. Seconds and middles are supposedly more likely to test boundaries and act out in obvious ways. Lee's behaviors seem to fall in line in a lot of ways with these theories, IMO. Anyone here more expert in birth order theory as it may apply to this case?

sharpar
01-14-2010, 01:15 AM
In dysfunctional family systems roles are assigned to children scapegoat golden child clown rescuer/ savior and several others. Birth order can contribute to the reasons for the role assignments designated by the dominant wingnut. Not being held accountable was just as damaging and as abusive as if she had been beaten and burned .

cloud
01-14-2010, 01:36 AM
What is BFD?


The post you quoted (or replied to) said BPD - borderline personality disorder.

JMHO

cloud
01-14-2010, 02:04 AM
Anyone heard of the "terrible two(s)" ? A child turning two when they demand and need more care and attention than ever. It can just be as simple as that.

However. Nurture vs nature will always be an argument that, IMO, won't be resolved any time soon, if ever.

In my view, Caylee could have had the best, but instead had the worst of both.

I believe it was due to unresolved family issues that happened a very long time before Caylee was even on the horizon, maybe - at a stretch - even when Casey was only a glint in her parent's eyes.

I believe this family's dynamics started a long time ago, and that it unfortunately culminated with Caylee's killing. I'm sorry to be so graphic, but it's what it is, IMO. I don't think this was an accident. I think it was some very sick attempt at revenge, or an "I'll show you" attitude, in response to all the family arguments that were going on, and the way Casey was spinning out of control at that time.

JMHO, though

Just Jayla
01-14-2010, 10:08 AM
Trying to understand CA a little better, don't know why-I vacillate on her....

She must have had moments where she found out about things that KC did and wondered to herself if KC was "off." She probably went through it in her mind a lot.
I am sure she even said something to KC about it before, maybe told KC she needed help (and in KC's way, she spins that with her friends...drama, liar...telling them she feels she needs to be committed).
I can only imagine that if CA told KC that she was concerned about her mental health, it would most likely be in the throws of an argument or would cause an argument, and KC would make CA feel like a jerk for suggesting mental illness.
GA might back up CA on her concerns, but CA still did not have enough support to validate her suspicions that KC was sociopathic. She went to a counselor, and the counselor wanted her to take action (kick KC out). That required an evolution for CA, because action was always confrontation with KC, and CA had to be able to stand up to the nastiness and stay strong in her decision.
Then, there was Caylee. The counselor was not effective for CA, because the counselor said it was okay for KC to leave with Caylee. CA diagreed on this point, and was back to square one-She needs to confront KC with a support system, but Caylee needs to stay.
CA should have found another counselor and talked openly about her real concerns for Caylee's safety. The counselor could have given her more informed advice as to how to deal with the situation. CA would have felt supported by the couselor and would become more firm in following through with the situation. But she would have had to address some things about KC, IMO, that she did not want to visit.

CA absolutely knows what happened, not necessarily how, but she knows the outcome and the perpetrator. Hoping she is talking to someone that can help her clearly see what happened and where she is now. But if she is not going to be brutally honest about what she knows in her heart, I have to throw up my hands, I guess.

cloud
01-14-2010, 12:05 PM
I propose that CA had at least as many issues as KC does, and passed them on - not knowingly, just by behaviour (that's where nurture kicks in).

I also believe that nature informs on that, because CA is not what I would call stable, or even rational. She functions perfectly well as an individual, but in a family context... not so much at all. She needs to be in control always, and when she loses that, she seems to lose herself, and tries to regain that control by any means, so she can be "herself" again.

Like mother like daughter... genetics and environment combined. Which goes to show that the two can be a deadly combination. Poor dear Caylee is the one who paid for it. The other two are still at it, as far as I can see.

JMO

OneLostGrl
01-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Thank you for stating the distinction above - THEY ARE AWARE OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG THEY CHOSE NOT TO FOLLOW IT. This is precisely why we begin teaching a small child right from wrong and usually we see shaping and positive responses as we go along over time. If we don't, we should be concerned and find out if there is something developmentally wrong (easier said then done I'm afraid). That said, it's a process and black and white answers are not always available (as in ADHD, etc.) but the worst thing would be to accept and ignore the behavior imo.

Excellent! Makes clear for me why people say there are sociopaths who never kill people, etc. It's not that they'd loose sleep over it if they did, it's just that they know they'd probably have to pay for their wrongdoing and don't want to risk sitting behind bars for their life because they care about theirself. Therefore, it's not their conscious, morals or feelings of brotherly love "do on to others as you would have them do unto you" keeping them from committing high crime; it's their intelligence and/or some semblence of forward thinking keeping them from crossing criminal lines. I can imagine then, if you have a child with sociopathic leanings and never enforce consequences for their bad bahavior, how those two combinations could be a breeding ground for creating a dangerous adult.

Then, we must ask ourselves, could there be something else lacking in a killer sociopathic person such as lack of impulse control to such an extent as in an animal, or some emotional lacking as in I don't matter to anyone (despite proof otherwise but they can't feel it or believe it) therefore, noone else matters to me if they're not "with" me. It goes beyond survival instinct though and into the domain of control.

Great post, Woe!

OneLostGrl
01-14-2010, 02:37 PM
I propose that CA had at least as many issues as KC does, and passed them on - not knowingly, just by behaviour (that's where nurture kicks in).

I also believe that nature informs on that, because CA is not what I would call stable, or even rational. She functions perfectly well as an individual, but in a family context... not so much at all. She needs to be in control always, and when she loses that, she seems to lose herself, and tries to regain that control by any means, so she can be "herself" again.

Like mother like daughter... genetics and environment combined. Which goes to show that the two can be a deadly combination. Poor dear Caylee is the one who paid for it. The other two are still at it, as far as I can see.

JMO

Cindy is a sick woman who causes much damage to each of her "loved ones". IMO.

OneLostGrl
01-14-2010, 02:57 PM
Thank you for your post, WBG. I snipped to focus on this section because you got me thinking about research on birth order and personality. (John Bradshaw's work touches on birth order in the context of family dysfunctions, particularly substance abuse.) Firstborns supposedly tend to be the more buttoned-down, less demonstrative, more reserved ones, more sensitive to managing or maintaining a peaceful family dynamic. Seconds and middles are supposedly more likely to test boundaries and act out in obvious ways. Lee's behaviors seem to fall in line in a lot of ways with these theories, IMO. Anyone here more expert in birth order theory as it may apply to this case?

IMO a typical family birth order situation is different than a family with personality disorders.

I have linked this before but will again in case anyone is interested in reading it.

part 1-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642&cn=8

2-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28645

3-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28646

KariKae
01-14-2010, 03:13 PM
A lot of people describe living with a BPD-type as "walking on eggshells" because of how quickly they can strike out when they feel threatened. They are also expert at manipulating things to cast blame on anyone but themselves. Very difficult to manage a relationship with one.

That's exactly right. There's even a book called "Walking on Eggshells" about people with BPD. It was very enlightening when dealing with the BPD person in my life. The thing is...You have no idea what is going to set them off. One minute they can be the most charming, loving person. The next minute they are flying into a rage because you forgot to put ice in their lemonade.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee - I just think she loved herself a whole lot more.

OneLostGrl
01-14-2010, 06:29 PM
That's exactly right. There's even a book called "Walking on Eggshells" about people with BPD. It was very enlightening when dealing with the BPD person in my life. The thing is...You have no idea what is going to set them off. One minute they can be the most charming, loving person. The next minute they are flying into a rage because you forgot to put ice in their lemonade.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee - I just think she loved herself a whole lot more.

See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

ynotdivein
01-14-2010, 09:11 PM
IMO a typical family birth order situation is different than a family with personality disorders.

I have linked this before but will again in case anyone is interested in reading it.

part 1-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642&cn=8

2-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28645

3-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28646

Whoa--missed this before. Simple thanks click wasn't enough. Thank you for reposting! :clap:

cloud
01-15-2010, 12:02 AM
See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

With respect, she loved herself enough to put herself before her child's needs, to even "forget" that she was "missing" and go looking for her in bars, "grinding" on the dance floor, show off in an American flag, pose for the camera, talk about herself in texts and voice calls, call her child Caylee a snot-head, rage at her parents because they were (shock, horror!!) not focusing on her, but on finding Caylee, stealing money from family and friends to buy herself clothes and tatoos... This is not someone who hates herself... it's someone who thinks everyone in the world owes her everything and she owes nothing back.

To me, she sounds like an individual on a mision to treat herself to anything and everything she can (or cannot) at the expense of anyone else but herself. I would call that narcissistic and sociopathic behaviour.

JMO

Woe.be.gone
01-15-2010, 04:09 AM
See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

It's easy to imagine that KC never had anybody point out to her what her inner qualities were but put a lot of emphasis on her looks. I'll never understand why her parents didn't make her earn that last credit in order to graduate high school. Talk about lazy. IMO GA should have made sure she graduated. He could have taken car privledges from her - it was too easy for parent to accomplish that one imo but the A's didn't even try. Instead they blamed the school. As far as KC is concerned, she must have had a desire to fail or something to be that lame. The 1/2 credit short thing is self sabatoge of sorts. I could better understand if a person drops out at the beginning of their Junior year because they are troubled or struggling for some reason but 1/2 credit short and then act as if it doesn't matter - that's rediculous and imo indicative of some deeper problem. It's almost as if she was crying out for someone to insist she not screw up or something. It's as if the A's never had any hopes for KC to "become" anything because they didn't pay attention to what she was doing at all when you think about it. Weird. Most people tell stories about what is going on at work, the people there, who bugs them, stories relating to the boss both good and bad, challenges they have at work regarding deadlines, people or even boredom. Think about it, who doesn't talk to family and friends about their job especially when you're in your twenties. Plus they should have been disappointed and concerned when KC got pregnant and hid it from them to boot. No parent in their right mind would be thrilled at first under those circumstances. Who do these people think they're kidding. :crazy:


Cloud, I hear what you're saying but those behaviors are all selfish and shallow but not indicative of love as in esteem. I interpreted OLG's post to mean KC doesn't love herself at a deep level. She definitely had a self entitlement thing going on though.

cloud
01-15-2010, 04:44 AM
Respectfully snipped for brevity.

[QUOTE]Cloud, I hear what you're saying but those behaviors are all selfish and shallow but not indicative of love as in esteem. I interpreted OLG's post to mean KC doesn't love herself at a deep level. She definitely had a self entitlement thing going on though.

I hear what you're saying too... at a deep level. That's why I suggested that this family had and has deeper issues than we'll ever know, even though we can see some clear glimpses. The ultimate was Caylee. They can still try to hide those issues, whatever they are, but I don't think they're going to be as successful as they have been in the past, because when the death of an innocent 2-year old child comes into play - that's the time when all the skeletons come out of the cupboard. Not to you or me, but to LE. Even, maybe, to themselves.

JMHO

claudicici
01-15-2010, 06:11 AM
See, I don't think Casey even likes, let alone loves herself. Because of her IMO Borderline mother constantly crossing boundries, enmeshment, splitting, co-dependant and enabling behaviors I don't think Casey even knows who she is. She is whatever it is her mommy says she is.. until she isn't. Then she acts out in a big way and mommy won't even accept the truth of it (pregnant, lying about jobs, school etc), instead she creates an alternate reality for her daughter and goes on with her life as if everything is fine.. until it isn't. (people noticing the pregancy, Casey not being able to graduate, grandma b!tching cuz the money out of grandpas account)

Being raised by a borderline parent is a very confusing and often scary existence. You are not allowed to feel your own feelings (you are told what you feel is wrong), think your own thoughts, form your own opinions or live your own life. These parents truly steal their childrens identity before they can even form one. I think Casey meant it when she texted TonE saying she hates herself and is the worst mother in the world. I think her self hatred and feelings of worthlessness is what led to her destructive behaviors.

MO.

...incredible post.I agree 100%

skygirl
01-15-2010, 09:39 AM
Regarding the "never got her needs met by GA and CA" is not exactly what I meant. KC certainly had her needs met by her parents as far as physical needs (housing, food, finances, cothing, toys etc). I believe the needs they met were needs that reflected back onto them in a positive way (ie: cute clothing purchased by CA to look "perfect" to others). But emotional needs, like recognizing KC's true emotions and responding to them appropriately. For instance, again the video of Caylee snuggling with GGP, it wasn't Caylee's or GGP's need for Caylee to hug and kiss him. There was no need to do anything but just enjoy those moments between this little one and her elderly Papa, but CA had a need she could not override and forced Caylee to stop her own emotional feelings and natural interaction w/GGP to comply w/CA's demand to hug and kiss. In that interaction, Caylee and GGP then had to stop their sweet moment of relationship to comply w/CA's need. This demand of "performance" from CA was not for the benefit of GGP or Caylee, it was purely to meet CA's need. A need for Caylee to perform for her. If a pattern of behavior overtime is established, where each time CA sees someone else's emotions don't fit w/CA's agenda, CA's agenda will always override KC's eventually. I think this speaks to the interaction between KC and her Mom in jail. "Will somebody just let me (speak/feel)?" In essence, KC may have grown up in a house w/an extremely "esteem sensitive" parent who feels their child must look perfect at all times in order for the parent to look perfect to the outside world. It is all about how they think others will perceive them (narcissism). The child is a reflection of themselves.

Snipped for space & BBM:

This reminds me of something CA mentioned in her FBI interview about how (pharaphrasing here) KC had learned from CA about how to keep Caylee clean all the time. CA mentions about how when her kids were younger, she would bathe them in the am, again at night before bed, and anytime during the day they had to run/go somewhere she would put them in the tub and give em a quick wash. Wonder if CA enforeced this at home with KC for Caylee. Me personally. Bath at night before bed, and if we are going to the g-store, they get dressed and a warm soapy wash cloth. (unless mega muddy)

I guess I just thought it was a bit much. I know I don't have that kind of time on my hands. Not to mention the energy. So re: your post Woe, rings true...All about appearences?

:ornament::bath:

wenwe4
01-15-2010, 11:32 AM
[/B][/B]

Snipped for space & BBM:

This reminds me of something CA mentioned in her FBI interview about how (pharaphrasing here) KC had learned from CA about how to keep Caylee clean all the time. CA mentions about how when her kids were younger, she would bathe them in the am, again at night before bed, and anytime during the day they had to run/go somewhere she would put them in the tub and give em a quick wash. Wonder if CA enforeced this at home with KC for Caylee. Me personally. Bath at night before bed, and if we are going to the g-store, they get dressed and a warm soapy wash cloth. (unless mega muddy)

I guess I just thought it was a bit much. I know I don't have that kind of time on my hands. Not to mention the energy. So re: your post Woe, rings true...All about appearences?

:ornament::bath:

The post you referenced is actually my post, unfortunately I think I screwed up when quoting WBG and somehow removed the "quote" so it morphed into wbg's. WBG - I am sorry, as my words are being attributed to your post. Ultimately - It's all my fault.

The bathing CA mentions is absolutely in-line w/esteem sensitivity strategies of attachment. Good isn't good enough because you and your children (and your home) must look perfect at all times as a reflection on yourself. This is a perfect example of meeting the parent's needs and not necessarily the child's need. Truly, 3 baths a day is not necessarily good for their skin. It was all about CA's need to look "perfect" and have her children look "perfect".

ps I think I am off to go listen to that interview - any help in finding it would be greatly appreciated! TIA!

cloud
01-15-2010, 02:51 PM
The post you referenced is actually my post, unfortunately I think I screwed up when quoting WBG and somehow removed the "quote" so it morphed into wbg's. WBG - I am sorry, as my words are being attributed to your post. Ultimately - It's all my fault.

The bathing CA mentions is absolutely in-line w/esteem sensitivity strategies of attachment. Good isn't good enough because you and your children (and your home) must look perfect at all times as a reflection on yourself. This is a perfect example of meeting the parent's needs and not necessarily the child's need. Truly, 3 baths a day is not necessarily good for their skin. It was all about CA's need to look "perfect" and have her children look "perfect".

ps I think I am off to go listen to that interview - any help in finding it would be greatly appreciated! TIA!

I totally agree. Anything else other than "perfect" was not acceptable to CA.

That is a very heavy burden to carry for anyone, probably especially for someone who was not ready to have a child, certainly not ready to devote her whole life to her.

Well, this is where CA's obssession with perfection tears lives apart - her own, and her closest. And tragically ends up in the loss of a child who was so confused that she didn't know who to cling to, or who loved her. IMO, one day it would be her mother, then she'd be away. Then another day it would be grandma, but she went away too. One day it would be grandpa, but he also was busy sometimes. Other days, it would be Jesse and family, and that was nice.

I'm not even going with the "nanny" thing.

Then she was taken to visit her GGF, and her body language said it all. Please just let me know that I'm safe and loved in one place. She wasn't afraid of her GGF - she was clinging to him as a refuge, as a place of comfort, away from conflict and drama.

Two CMAs have a lot to answer for, as well as one GA who apparently cowered rather than face it.

JMHO

JMHO

wenwe4
01-15-2010, 04:57 PM
I totally agree. Anything else other than "perfect" was not acceptable to CA.

That is a very heavy burden to carry for anyone, probably especially for someone who was not ready to have a child, certainly not ready to devote her whole life to her.

Well, this is where CA's obssession with perfection tears lives apart - her own, and her closest. And tragically ends up in the loss of a child who was so confused that she didn't know who to cling to, or who loved her. IMO, one day it would be her mother, then she'd be away. Then another day it would be grandma, but she went away too. One day it would be grandpa, but he also was busy sometimes. Other days, it would be Jesse and family, and that was nice.

I'm not even going with the "nanny" thing.

Then she was taken to visit her GGF, and her body language said it all. Please just let me know that I'm safe and loved in one place. She wasn't afraid of her GGF - she was clinging to him as a refuge, as a place of comfort, away from conflict and drama.

Two CMAs have a lot to answer for, as well as one GA who apparently cowered rather than face it.

JMHO

JMHO

Exactly! Attachment research proves that children need consistent primary care givers and the more number of primary care givers the higher increase in issues of reactive attachment disorder in children. Extensive studies were done on the children found in the Romanian orphanages who had multiple care providers, often never the same person. The children's physical needs were provided by the clock (if at all) instead of meeting the individual child's needs in the moment (or reasonable time period) when they actually needed comfort, etc. The rotating shifts never had care providers assigned to specific children or wards. There was no way to allow for developing relationship. Kids were essentially left in their cribs fulltime and were at the mercy of any adult who happened to show up and provide care in an assembly line fashion. This type of care (or extreme lack of it) resulted in the largest population of children exhibiting "reactive attachment disorder" in one setting. Not sure if any of you remember those videos of finding babies lined up in cribs, living in squalor, rocking themselves back and forth - (it was horrifying).

Woe.be.gone
01-15-2010, 05:10 PM
[/B][/B]

Snipped for space & BBM:

This reminds me of something CA mentioned in her FBI interview about how (pharaphrasing here) KC had learned from CA about how to keep Caylee clean all the time. CA mentions about how when her kids were younger, she would bathe them in the am, again at night before bed, and anytime during the day they had to run/go somewhere she would put them in the tub and give em a quick wash. Wonder if CA enforeced this at home with KC for Caylee. Me personally. Bath at night before bed, and if we are going to the g-store, they get dressed and a warm soapy wash cloth. (unless mega muddy)

I guess I just thought it was a bit much. I know I don't have that kind of time on my hands. Not to mention the energy. So re: your post Woe, rings true...All about appearences?

:ornament::bath:

Some how my name got attached to wenwe4's thoughts which I commented on below her post and agree her's are excellent observations. Just giving credit where credit is due.

I agree with you that that's a lot of bathing that went on in that house.

wenwe4
01-15-2010, 05:39 PM
an observation I made while re-listening to the CA interviews w/Yuri (I am sure this has been brought up before - but it raised my "hinky-meter" was how many times CA referred to "herself" within relationship w/Caylee, GA, etc. It was "her" home that GA wasn't allowed to throw JG out of when they caught JG & KC & Caylee lying on KC's bed watching TV. But what sent me over the moon was when she was talking about "her" anniversary when she & GA had a date while they were separated.

Reagan
01-16-2010, 09:32 PM
I'm sure this was discussed at length.. and I hope someone can point me in the right direction and/or thread(s). I did a search and didn't come up with much.

I was reviewing one of KC's first pre-trial hearings (Jan 30th, 2009). The hearing right after the remains of Caylee were found, and no more than 12 seconds after Mark Nejame said the words "remains of a child", KC tosses a pen at Baez, smiling.
She knows she is being watched, she recognizes that someone is speaking about her child who she killed, yet she doesn't appear to realize her behavior is unacceptable until Baez ignores her and sets her pen down. It takes her more than 10 seconds to think of what just happened..reaches by Baez for her pen... then she tries, rather poorly, to look like she gives a crap about what is going on around her.
What could cause such blatant disregard and detachment from your child? From the seriousness of the situation around her? I mean I get it.. she doesn't care, but what other disorders can be attributed to such detachment? I've seen many a sociopaths from the cases I've followed, but that short clip alone still shocks and appalls me to this day. I've never seen anything like it. I mean she doesn't even TRY, as if she's oblivious to the world around her, and she's not at a hearing where she is being accused of murdering her own flesh and blood. An innocent child for crying out loud.


P.S Can this footage be used during her trial by either the Pros or defense?

Horace Finklestein
01-16-2010, 10:00 PM
I'm sure this was discussed at length.. and I hope someone can point me in the right direction and/or thread(s). I did a search and didn't come up with much.

I was reviewing one of KC's first pre-trial hearings (Jan 30th, 2009). The hearing right after the remains of Caylee were found, and no more than 12 seconds after Mark Nejame said the words "remains of a child", KC tosses a pen at Baez, smiling.
She knows she is being watched, she recognizes that someone is speaking about her child who she killed, yet she doesn't appear to realize her behavior is unacceptable until Baez ignores her and sets her pen down. It takes her more than 10 seconds to think of what just happened..reaches by Baez for her pen... then she tries, rather poorly, to look like she gives a crap about what is going on around her.
What could cause such blatant disregard and detachment from your child? From the seriousness of the situation around her? I mean I get it.. she doesn't care, but what other disorders can be attributed to such detachment? I've seen many a sociopaths from the cases I've followed, but that short clip alone still shocks and appalls me to this day. I've never seen anything like it. I mean she doesn't even TRY, as if she's oblivious to the world around her, and she's not at a hearing where she is being accused of murdering her own flesh and blood. An innocent child for crying out loud.


P.S Can this footage be used during her trial by either the Pros or defense?

And you would think she would at least fake it just for the sake of self preservation and appearances...she has to have been told the importance of how she comes across. I guess the eye-jabbing/fake crying might be explained by that?

Reagan
01-16-2010, 10:55 PM
And you would think she would at least fake it just for the sake of self preservation and appearances...she has to have been told the importance of how she comes across. I guess the eye-jabbing/fake crying might be explained by that?

A little too late. Like 1 year too late.

cloud
01-17-2010, 12:06 AM
And you would think she would at least fake it just for the sake of self preservation and appearances...she has to have been told the importance of how she comes across. I guess the eye-jabbing/fake crying might be explained by that?

I personally think she flaunted it for a long while - the gum-snapping, the shorts, the tight jeans, wearing the white-rimmed sunglasses bought with stolen money,... I think she was making a statement: stick it.

Then Baez tried to temper her image with the "wholesome look" - serious expression, grey trousers, loose fitting white blouse and EYEGLASSES, which we'd never seen her wear before.

Thing is... it screamed FAKE. IMO, it was confirmed a short time later when she was sitting in the interview room in the same attire, minus eyeglasses, shirt unbottoned, and wearing a great big smile, at times, joking and flirting.

Baez tries, but when you have a subject like that, it's like beating your head against a wall, and when it stops it feels good.

She has lied her way through this whole tragedy, and IMO her lawyers are actively encouraging that same behaviour. I know... they're defense attorneys and that's their job. But when a client lies so blatantly about her own child's "disappearance", and then defense tries to beffudle the facts by any means, including encouraging more lies, or subterfuge... one has to wonder whom we're protecting and why.

I would have thought, and hoped it would be Caylee, and every other child in similar situations.

JMHO

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 02:28 AM
I personally think she flaunted it for a long while - the gum-snapping, the shorts, the tight jeans, wearing the white-rimmed sunglasses bought with stolen money,... I think she was making a statement: stick it.
Then Baez tried to temper her image with the "wholesome look" - serious expression, grey trousers, loose fitting white blouse and EYEGLASSES, which we'd never seen her wear before.

Thing is... it screamed FAKE. IMO, it was confirmed a short time later when she was sitting in the interview room in the same attire, minus eyeglasses, shirt unbottoned, and wearing a great big smile, at times, joking and flirting.

Baez tries, but when you have a subject like that, it's like beating your head against a wall, and when it stops it feels good.

She has lied her way through this whole tragedy, and IMO her lawyers are actively encouraging that same behaviour. I know... they're defense attorneys and that's their job. But when a client lies so blatantly about her own child's "disappearance", and then defense tries to beffudle the facts by any means, including encouraging more lies, or subterfuge... one has to wonder whom we're protecting and why.
I would have thought, and hoped it would be Caylee, and every other child in similar situations.

JMHO




BBM Don't forget that High-Five moment with her brother caught on camera that really disturbed me. What was that about? KC's actions during that time period depicted some actress wanna be, so well-known and admired...for killing her child.

Then, the studious eye glass girl, the school marm with the bun, a whole bunch of ugly clothes. Every once in awhile, some eye poking tears will be faked if she prodded by defense.

I have the same questions as you. It seems a shame her Defense team is allowed to attempt to manipulate and befuddle the facts. I have a feeling we "ain't seen nothing yet", but we're not stupid. I don't think the jury will be fooled.

Keep believing, in the end, we will see Justice for Caylee.


(Hey, cloud, I thought jumbo sunglasses were all the rage with dummies! But mine are red, and not stolen.):cooler:

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 02:44 AM
Don't know if any of you are a fan of Sam Vaknin. Here's what he had to say about
The Narcissist Mother. http://samvak.tripod.com/faq64.html

cloud
01-17-2010, 07:25 AM
BBM Don't forget that High-Five moment with her brother caught on camera that really disturbed me. What was that about? KC's actions during that time period depicted some actress wanna be, so well-known and admired...for killing her child.

Then, the studious eye glass girl, the school marm with the bun, a whole bunch of ugly clothes. Every once in awhile, some eye poking tears will be faked if she prodded by defense.

I have the same questions as you. It seems a shame her Defense team is allowed to attempt to manipulate and befuddle the facts. I have a feeling we "ain't seen nothing yet", but we're not stupid. I don't think the jury will be fooled.

Keep believing, in the end, we will see Justice for Caylee.



(Hey, cloud, I thought jumbo sunglasses were all the rage with dummies! But mine are red, and not stolen.):cooler:

Hey, Curious! ITA.

I don't think any person with half a brain is going to buy into than spin.

The jury has a duty to examine all the facts and to remain neutral and render an honest finding based on factual and circumstantial evidence. That's all anyone could ever ask of a juror. And that's a lot. I'm not sure I would want that on my shoulders, but I wouldn't shirk it - I'd just try my best to be fair and always honest.


Hey, Curious... enjoy those jumbo red sunglasses of yours! I'm having a grand old time just imagining it!! Go for it, girl!!!!

JMHO

cloud
01-17-2010, 07:37 AM
BBM Don't forget that High-Five moment with her brother caught on camera that really disturbed me. What was that about? KC's actions during that time period depicted some actress wanna be, so well-known and admired...for killing her child.

Then, the studious eye glass girl, the school marm with the bun, a whole bunch of ugly clothes. Every once in awhile, some eye poking tears will be faked if she prodded by defense.

I have the same questions as you. It seems a shame her Defense team is allowed to attempt to manipulate and befuddle the facts. I have a feeling we "ain't seen nothing yet", but we're not stupid. I don't think the jury will be fooled.

Keep believing, in the end, we will see Justice for Caylee.


(Hey, cloud, I thought jumbo sunglasses were all the rage with dummies! But mine are red, and not stolen.):cooler:

(bolding mine)

Yeah... that bothered me too - it just seemed un-natural. On the one hand, it could have been a brother-sister thing trying to support (on his part) and acknowledge the support (on her part)... but it seemed so inappropriate, given the circumstances.

I don't know whether it means something, or nothing at all. It just didn't seem to "sit" right. But then again... take a look at the "whole", which isn't, IMHO.

Knot4u2no
01-17-2010, 10:50 AM
I'm sure this was discussed at length.. and I hope someone can point me in the right direction and/or thread(s). I did a search and didn't come up with much.

I was reviewing one of KC's first pre-trial hearings (Jan 30th, 2009). The hearing right after the remains of Caylee were found, and no more than 12 seconds after Mark Nejame said the words "remains of a child", KC tosses a pen at Baez, smiling.
She knows she is being watched, she recognizes that someone is speaking about her child who she killed, yet she doesn't appear to realize her behavior is unacceptable until Baez ignores her and sets her pen down. It takes her more than 10 seconds to think of what just happened..reaches by Baez for her pen... then she tries, rather poorly, to look like she gives a crap about what is going on around her.
What could cause such blatant disregard and detachment from your child? From the seriousness of the situation around her? I mean I get it.. she doesn't care, but what other disorders can be attributed to such detachment? I've seen many a sociopaths from the cases I've followed, but that short clip alone still shocks and appalls me to this day. I've never seen anything like it. I mean she doesn't even TRY, as if she's oblivious to the world around her, and she's not at a hearing where she is being accused of murdering her own flesh and blood. An innocent child for crying out loud.


P.S Can this footage be used during her trial by either the Pros or defense?

Casey Anthony’s BRACE Character Profile may provide some answers. This link works with Foxfire, not Internet Explorer.

http://crimsonshadows.net/articles-mainmenu-9/forensic-psychology-mainmenu-56/profiling-mainmenu-140/168-profiling-casey?showall=1

Russell

ThommyMac
01-17-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't know if I have to be vetted as an expert VA patient or ex criminal. The following can be taken from an experienced amateur. My opinions on the BPD chatter are based on having been diagnosed as such a couple years ago. Like it or not, mental illness has a huge stigma attached to it. I never had too much a problem admitting to having a criminal record or being an ex-junkie BUT it took me a long time to be able to admit to someone I was receiving treatment for a mental illness. Both me mum and little brother were life-long nurses who felt psychology was akin to shamanism and its practitioners as witch doctors. Who knows how CA feels about them but I doubt she would want anyone thinking her perfect daughter could need mental help. I had doubts and misgivings about the validity of psych treatment myself but the proof is in the pudding. Sticking to meds, therapy and twice a month visits to the VAMC Pittsburgh's PTSD clinic has helped me get multiple years free from hard drugs, the longest length in me life since first using. My other comment is about being sentenced by a judge. Again, I do not claim expert but it is above novice level, sad to say. The court did not care much about VA mental diagnosis. They did take military service into account and were pretty lenient, all things considered. The biggest factor was me admitting culpability and a lawyer who worked with the DA and judge to get a sentence everyone could claim a "win", whatever that is. Please keep in mind this was in SW Pennsylvania. Your results may differ, adjusting the recipe for high altitudes is recommended.

RR0004
01-17-2010, 03:29 PM
I don't know if I have to be vetted as an expert VA patient or ex criminal. The following can be taken from an experienced amateur. My opinions on the BPD chatter are based on having been diagnosed as such a couple years ago. Like it or not, mental illness has a huge stigma attached to it. I never had too much a problem admitting to having a criminal record or being an ex-junkie BUT it took me a long time to be able to admit to someone I was receiving treatment for a mental illness. Both me mum and little brother were life-long nurses who felt psychology was akin to shamanism and its practitioners as witch doctors. Who knows how CA feels about them but I doubt she would want anyone thinking her perfect daughter could need mental help. I had doubts and misgivings about the validity of psych treatment myself but the proof is in the pudding. Sticking to meds, therapy and twice a month visits to the VAMC Pittsburgh's PTSD clinic has helped me get multiple years free from hard drugs, the longest length in me life since first using. My other comment is about being sentenced by a judge. Again, I do not claim expert but it is above novice level, sad to say. The court did not care much about VA mental diagnosis. They did take military service into account and were pretty lenient, all things considered. The biggest factor was me admitting culpability and a lawyer who worked with the DA and judge to get a sentence everyone could claim a "win", whatever that is. Please keep in mind this was in SW Pennsylvania. Your results may differ, adjusting the recipe for high altitudes is recommended.


:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 03:50 PM
Hey, Curious! ITA.

I don't think any person with half a brain is going to buy into than spin.

The jury has a duty to examine all the facts and to remain neutral and render an honest finding based on factual and circumstantial evidence. That's all anyone could ever ask of a juror. And that's a lot. I'm not sure I would want that on my shoulders, but I wouldn't shirk it - I'd just try my best to be fair and always honest.


Hey, Curious... enjoy those jumbo red sunglasses of yours! I'm having a grand old time just imagining it!! Go for it, girl!!!!

JMHO

cloud, don't you think if the Defense could find the right outfit for Casey, she might get off on the charges? Maybe a prairie girl look with a cute printed dress with a white collar. There's got to be some outfit that will work! It's only a matter of time before we see it. :hourglass:

Caylee was still missing when LA and KC were high-fiving. It really made me suspect LA was just as odd as the rest of the family.

Jurors are going to see through all the Defense ploys I would think. Also, I don't think they will be able to convince anyone that KC had deep discomfort at anytime before or after Caylee's death. They're stuck with trying to explain that high-fiver, remorseless spiteful b!tch. (maybe in a prairie girl dress but nevertheless guilty)

cloud
01-17-2010, 03:51 PM
I don't know if I have to be vetted as an expert VA patient or ex criminal. The following can be taken from an experienced amateur. My opinions on the BPD chatter are based on having been diagnosed as such a couple years ago. Like it or not, mental illness has a huge stigma attached to it. I never had too much a problem admitting to having a criminal record or being an ex-junkie BUT it took me a long time to be able to admit to someone I was receiving treatment for a mental illness. Both me mum and little brother were life-long nurses who felt psychology was akin to shamanism and its practitioners as witch doctors. Who knows how CA feels about them but I doubt she would want anyone thinking her perfect daughter could need mental help. I had doubts and misgivings about the validity of psych treatment myself but the proof is in the pudding. Sticking to meds, therapy and twice a month visits to the VAMC Pittsburgh's PTSD clinic has helped me get multiple years free from hard drugs, the longest length in me life since first using. My other comment is about being sentenced by a judge. Again, I do not claim expert but it is above novice level, sad to say. The court did not care much about VA mental diagnosis. They did take military service into account and were pretty lenient, all things considered. The biggest factor was me admitting culpability and a lawyer who worked with the DA and judge to get a sentence everyone could claim a "win", whatever that is. Please keep in mind this was in SW Pennsylvania. Your results may differ, adjusting the recipe for high altitudes is recommended.

Hi ThommyMac - you acknowledge it and worked hard to do something about it and get the required treatment. With CA, nothing like that was going to happen, because everyone in the family is... "perfect". What a heavy burden to carry for anyone, especially if they're young and a rebellious and maybe fragile.

I couldn't do it, but I did try for a very long time when I was young. Did the whole school, university, work and no time for extracurricular activities ;) The difference is, no-one in my family expected me to be perfect, but I felt I had to be. The pressure one puts on oneself.

I wish you well. :)

JMHO

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 03:55 PM
Casey Anthony’s BRACE Character Profile may provide some answers. This link works with Foxfire, not Internet Explorer.

http://crimsonshadows.net/articles-mainmenu-9/forensic-psychology-mainmenu-56/profiling-mainmenu-140/168-profiling-casey?showall=1

Russell

thanks, I tried it anyways having IE, and caught a glimpse of the article then it gave me trouble. It looks like a good article. Can you talk about it some?

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 04:22 PM
I don't know if I have to be vetted as an expert VA patient or ex criminal. The following can be taken from an experienced amateur. My opinions on the BPD chatter are based on having been diagnosed as such a couple years ago. Like it or not, mental illness has a huge stigma attached to it. I never had too much a problem admitting to having a criminal record or being an ex-junkie BUT it took me a long time to be able to admit to someone I was receiving treatment for a mental illness. Both me mum and little brother were life-long nurses who felt psychology was akin to shamanism and its practitioners as witch doctors. Who knows how CA feels about them but I doubt she would want anyone thinking her perfect daughter could need mental help. I had doubts and misgivings about the validity of psych treatment myself but the proof is in the pudding. Sticking to meds, therapy and twice a month visits to the VAMC Pittsburgh's PTSD clinic has helped me get multiple years free from hard drugs, the longest length in me life since first using. My other comment is about being sentenced by a judge. Again, I do not claim expert but it is above novice level, sad to say. The court did not care much about VA mental diagnosis. They did take military service into account and were pretty lenient, all things considered. The biggest factor was me admitting culpability and a lawyer who worked with the DA and judge to get a sentence everyone could claim a "win", whatever that is. Please keep in mind this was in SW Pennsylvania. Your results may differ, adjusting the recipe for high altitudes is recommended.



ThommyMac, it is rare to find someone that will talk about their own psych problems or treatment. I salute you for accepting the help. May you find peace and happiness, and be able to help others. :)

cloud
01-17-2010, 04:35 PM
cloud, don't you think if the Defense could find the right outfit for Casey, she might get off on the charges? Maybe a prairie girl look with a cute printed dress with a white collar. There's got to be some outfit that will work! It's only a matter of time before we see it. :hourglass:

Caylee was still missing when LA and KC were high-fiving. It really made me suspect LA was just as odd as the rest of the family.

Jurors are going to see through all the Defense ploys I would think. Also, I don't think they will be able to convince anyone that KC had deep discomfort at anytime before or after Caylee's death. They're stuck with trying to explain that high-fiver, remorseless spiteful b!tch. (maybe in a prairie girl dress but nevertheless guilty)

Maybe they'll just resort to prison overalls... 'poor me' sympathy factor. Nothing else seemed to have worked so far. (I am being sarcastic)

If the defense want to treat the jury as morons, I say let them :). I don't think they'll be doing themselves, or especially their client, any favours, IMO.

cloud
01-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Casey Anthony’s BRACE Character Profile may provide some answers. This link works with Foxfire, not Internet Explorer.

http://crimsonshadows.net/articles-mainmenu-9/forensic-psychology-mainmenu-56/profiling-mainmenu-140/168-profiling-casey?showall=1

Russell

A very interesting read, and IMO, right on.

JMHO

Knot4u2no
01-17-2010, 06:32 PM
thanks, I tried it anyways having IE, and caught a glimpse of the article then it gave me trouble. It looks like a good article. Can you talk about it some?

It is a bit much, but some of the findings are (sorry about the length and jargon):

************
Analysis of Casey Anthony's Basic BRACE Character Profile™ Graphic

There is significant pathology in all three domains (Cognitive, Behavior, and Existential) and for all three character types (Type A, Type B and Type C). The overall profile and each domain is dominated by Type C characters, which reflects an extremely self-centered and self-justifying individual who is functionally possessed by the active pursuit of all types of pleasure and comfort, sacrificing others in the process, and the simultaneous avoidance of pain/discomfort, including personal and social responsibilities. This person's imagination is full of self-serving fantasies and she has an unbridled willingness to act-out the desires of her heart, all at the expense of others. The high Type B characteristics in the Cognitive domain indicate a preoccupation with matters of power and control, which in combination with the high Type A characteristics, indicate exceptionally poor judgment and an almost total disregard for consequences. This person wears cognitive blinders and others are valued only to the degree that they afford her some type of gain or the avoidance of undesired consequences.

The Behavior domain reflects a unrestrained level of acting-out (Type C) and very proactive competition with others for attention, control, and being on center stage. The acting-out is often dramatic, intrusive, manipulative, generally indifferent to others, and very likely to escalate until limits are externally imposed or personal resources are exhausted. Alcohol and other substance abuse are likely and the pleasure seeking will always exceed the pleasure found, leading to new excesses and related personal deficits, both physical and psychological. However, it is the social reinforcement and control that dominates, even to the degree that alcohol and drugs become secondary sources of pleasure/comfort and pain/discomfort avoidance.
************
Keeping in mind that the maximum score in any cell is 4.00 (core characteristic) and that a score of 2.00 (strongly characteristic) is significantly problematic, Cognitive Type A reveals the degree of cognitive dysfunction, regardless of type (psychiatric, brain trauma, mental retardation, underlying disease process, substance induced, etc.). Behavior Type B reveals the degree to which power and control issues are acted-out in violation of the rights of others, whether antisocial or indifferent, abuse or neglect, but particularly including force and violence whether direct or indirect. And, Existential Type C reveals the degree to which self-serving desires dominate motivation. Notice that all desires are acted-out (Behavior Type C) and there is a high level of related poor judgment (Behavior Type A), whether due to poor impulse control, a narrowed focus of attention, or simply a disregard for consequences.
************
In light of the absence of any overall positive correlation with the characteristics of Antisocial Personality Disorder, this combination reveals a level of narcissism that rises to Psychopathy. In combination with the fact that 1) there is no irrational thinking based on paranoid characteristics, 2) no perceptual distortions associated with Schizotypal characteristics, 3) power and control issues are not those associated with a Paranoid Personality Disorder, and 4) Histrionic characteristics exceed Narcissistic characteristics, this is the profile of a person prone to dramatic, uninhibited and dangerous acting-out. This person is independent, proactive, flexible and socially engaging. This is a person with characteristics consistent with a socially engaging Psychopath who motivated by social and interpersonal control, direct or indirect. The mild Asperger's characteristics are very likely secondary to a lack of regard for others and a high sense of interpersonal entitlement.
************
The Type A characteristics reveal a pervasive dysfunction of judgment based on a distorted world view and a detachment from shared interpersonal relationships. There is a time-bound and situation-bound quality to life experiences and the present is pervasive. That is, the present is the only reality but always entirely undesirable, and the driving purpose of the present is any type of change. The Type B and C characteristics indicate dramatic and public methods combined with purely self-serving motives and deliberate indifference.
************
The most salient findings at this level of analysis are the very selective Cognitive Antisocial characteristics, the perfect Type C Existential match for a prototypical 40-point Hare PCL-R psychopath, and most particularly, the significant Type A Existential characteristics for Avoidant Personality Disorder. Such an atypical finding opens the door to deep underlying anxiety, which may index a Dissociative Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, some other anxiety based disorder or simply the criminal intent to hide the truth related to her daughter, Caylee.
************
Based on her BRACE Character Profile, Casey Anthony is self-centered, self-justifying and self-promotional. It is all learned behavior, but there appears to be some type of memory dysfunction, not a matter of not knowing the difference between the truth and a lie, but rather not caring or not expecting to be caught or held responsible, perhaps aided by episodes of acute substance abuse. There is a semblance of confabulation and indifference to others or the truth, but there is something else.

There is an intentional quality to her indifference, a deliberate manipulation of others, a calculated purpose that affords her some type of personal reinforcement. Perhaps media coverage, perhaps the fame and fortune some are trying to cultivate through her, perhaps. In order to better understand Casey Anthony, her profile was correlated with several other profiles of characters (fictional and non-fictional) and prototypical types (serial killers, spies, etc.) already in the BRACE Character Profile™ database.

Casey Anthony correlates negatively with the DSM-III-R Sadistic Personality Disorder, but positively with the DSM-IV-TR Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. She correlates positively with secretive, manipulative types such as Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy and Dennis Lynn Rader, but not with Joel Rifkin (Asperger's Disorder), Edmund Kemper III, or the sophisticated Dr. Hannibal Lecter. Asperger's Disorder is further ruled-out by a significant negative correlation with the infamous fictional character, Jason, from the Friday the 13th movie series. It is noteworthy that there is a significant positive correlation with the self-made media celebrity John Mark Karr and with the fictional character, Kia, of Jack Osborne's novella, BLOOD RED: Genesis of a Psychopath.[27]

The detailed graphics and correlations charts remain for others to do their own analyses.
************
Editor: One thing that remains unaddressed, at least from a layperson's view (i.e., the people who will be reading this), is whether Casey murdered her daughter, as opposed to an accident or giving her to someone. While that is a pretty risky speculation, one could couch it, along with how she may have carried "it" out, in probabilities. Anyway, just a thought. What do you think?

Russell: Keeping in mind that this is pure speculation, the current findings certainly indicate that Casey is lying, and the current evidence as reported by LE indicates that Caylee is dead. We know that Casey engaged in high risk behaviors (e.g., alcohol and other substance abuse) and that she exposed Caylee to related high risk situations, such as allowing her to sleep in the same bed as she and her boyfriend(s). We also know that Casey is an exceptionally self-centered person who would be jealous of losing any attention to Caylee and who would begrudge the time and attention she had to provide Caylee. Unfortunately, I can imagine quite a few scenarios based on these general factors. Actually, until LE reported evidence of Caylee's death, I suspected an elaborate hoax by the Anthony family to defraud the public for monetary gains. I am still not convinced that it is not such a hoax that somehow got out of hand. For example, perhaps a staged kidnapping went bad when Casey got drunk and left Caylee in the trunk too long. Perhaps Casey simply left Caylee in a hot car too long while partying or passed-out. Given Casey's lifestyle and Caylee's exposure to it, I have no doubt that Caylee attracted the attention of pedophiles. There are any number of scenarios in which Caylee could have died at the hands of one or more pedophiles, and some related speculations will not be detailed here. Of course, there are some rather strange family dynamics that could lead most anywhere. Finally, given Casey's remarkably poor judgment and the level of self-centered anger she expressed in some of her phone calls, Caylee's death may have been a matter of a drunken Casey going into a narcissistic rage or simply deciding to make her own life easier.
************
All my personal opinions,
Russell

Curious Me
01-17-2010, 10:33 PM
Give that to the jurors to read, or try to explain the fine points with the jurors...You'll lose them. KC is just an extremely obnoxious, spoiled brat is the thing most people understand immediately. From what I did gather from the characteristical findings for KC, she is prone to all these regardless why. As a juror, I am not there to "understand" KC, but to determine who killed Caylee and what evidence supports that.

From the article:
"She correlates positively with secretive, manipulative types such as Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy and Dennis Lynn Rader, but not with Joel Rifkin (Asperger's Disorder), Edmund Kemper III, or the sophisticated Dr. Hannibal Lecter." IMHO, I just feel KC took it to the limit just like so many who have done evil, evil acts."

That's enough for me. I'd like this person behind bars please.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2010, 10:34 PM
~Snipped~ for space


************
Editor: One thing that remains unaddressed, at least from a layperson's view (i.e., the people who will be reading this), is whether Casey murdered her daughter, as opposed to an accident or giving her to someone. While that is a pretty risky speculation, one could couch it, along with how she may have carried "it" out, in probabilities. Anyway, just a thought. What do you think?

Russell: Keeping in mind that this is pure speculation, the current findings certainly indicate that Casey is lying, and the current evidence as reported by LE indicates that Caylee is dead. We know that Casey engaged in high risk behaviors (e.g., alcohol and other substance abuse) and that she exposed Caylee to related high risk situations, such as allowing her to sleep in the same bed as she and her boyfriend(s). We also know that Casey is an exceptionally self-centered person who would be jealous of losing any attention to Caylee and who would begrudge the time and attention she had to provide Caylee. Unfortunately, I can imagine quite a few scenarios based on these general factors. Actually, until LE reported evidence of Caylee's death, I suspected an elaborate hoax by the Anthony family to defraud the public for monetary gains. I am still not convinced that it is not such a hoax that somehow got out of hand. For example, perhaps a staged kidnapping went bad when Casey got drunk and left Caylee in the trunk too long. Perhaps Casey simply left Caylee in a hot car too long while partying or passed-out. Given Casey's lifestyle and Caylee's exposure to it, I have no doubt that Caylee attracted the attention of pedophiles. There are any number of scenarios in which Caylee could have died at the hands of one or more pedophiles, and some related speculations will not be detailed here. Of course, there are some rather strange family dynamics that could lead most anywhere. Finally, given Casey's remarkably poor judgment and the level of self-centered anger she expressed in some of her phone calls, Caylee's death may have been a matter of a drunken Casey going into a narcissistic rage or simply deciding to make her own life easier.
************
All my personal opinions,
Russell

As always, thanks for sharing! I kept what I wanted to talk about and snipped the rest for space.

I never noticed the editorial discussion at the end, Russell, and I just gotta tell you I felt both of my eyebrows raise as I read your thoughts on the possiblility it could have started out as a hoax by the lot of 'em. They are a sick bunch. I am still not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey is the murdering "bad guy" of the family- IMO they each share so many of the same characteristics.. and so many of Casey's behaviors are learned behaviors.

I soooo wish you'd whip us up a family profile! :angel:

OneLostGrl
01-17-2010, 10:47 PM
Give that to the jurors to read, or try to explain the fine points with the jurors...You'll lose them. KC is just an extremely obnoxious, spoiled brat is the thing most people understand immediately. From what I did gather from the characteristical findings for KC, she is prone to all these regardless why. As a juror, I am not there to "understand" KC, but to determine who killed Caylee and what evidence supports that.

From the article:
"She correlates positively with secretive, manipulative types such as Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy and Dennis Lynn Rader, but not with Joel Rifkin (Asperger's Disorder), Edmund Kemper III, or the sophisticated Dr. Hannibal Lecter." IMHO, I just feel KC took it to the limit just like so many who have done evil, evil acts."

That's enough for me. I'd like this person behind bars please.

Ahh, but this is a man who's job is has been to evaluate people and go to court and help decide if a person is to be held criminally accountable for their crimes or if their "mental illness" kept them from knowing right from wrong.

Everyone keeps talking about Casey and mental illness.. everyone! That's much of what we talk about in this case- "Was she depressed?", "PPD or PPP" "Does she have Bipolar?", "Is she a psychopath or does she have another personality disorder?", "was she psychotic?" It's all we talk about- we do want to understand her IMO and what this man right here has to say answers much of that for us, imo.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2010, 11:02 PM
I don't know if I have to be vetted as an expert VA patient or ex criminal. The following can be taken from an experienced amateur. My opinions on the BPD chatter are based on having been diagnosed as such a couple years ago. Like it or not, mental illness has a huge stigma attached to it. I never had too much a problem admitting to having a criminal record or being an ex-junkie BUT it took me a long time to be able to admit to someone I was receiving treatment for a mental illness. Both me mum and little brother were life-long nurses who felt psychology was akin to shamanism and its practitioners as witch doctors. Who knows how CA feels about them but I doubt she would want anyone thinking her perfect daughter could need mental help. I had doubts and misgivings about the validity of psych treatment myself but the proof is in the pudding. Sticking to meds, therapy and twice a month visits to the VAMC Pittsburgh's PTSD clinic has helped me get multiple years free from hard drugs, the longest length in me life since first using. My other comment is about being sentenced by a judge. Again, I do not claim expert but it is above novice level, sad to say. The court did not care much about VA mental diagnosis. They did take military service into account and were pretty lenient, all things considered. The biggest factor was me admitting culpability and a lawyer who worked with the DA and judge to get a sentence everyone could claim a "win", whatever that is. Please keep in mind this was in SW Pennsylvania. Your results may differ, adjusting the recipe for high altitudes is recommended.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h13/OneLostGrl/Caylee/hug.jpg

ITA, nobody ever cared that I have Bipolar.. it got me plenty of court ordered psych evals and some civil holds on locked wards but unless you are out of touch with reality and do not know right from wrong there is no excuse for our poor choices except that we made poor choices!

logicalgirl
01-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Casey Anthony’s BRACE Character Profile may provide some answers. This link works with Foxfire, not Internet Explorer.

http://crimsonshadows.net/articles-mainmenu-9/forensic-psychology-mainmenu-56/profiling-mainmenu-140/168-profiling-casey?showall=1

Russell

Knot4u2no - Thank You for introducing the BRACE Character Profile. I've never seen one before and found it fascinating. It's written in fairly basic wording, but even so I could feel my poor old brain scraping and screeching along while absorbing the concepts.
What did you think of one of the informal conclusions that Casey may have done this in a drunken temper?

I haven't actually thought of Casey as a heavy drinker - more of bingeing with her friends at party times.

logicalgirl
01-17-2010, 11:14 PM
Ahh, but this is a man who's job is has been to evaluate people and go to court and help decide if a person is to be held criminally accountable for their crimes or if their "mental illness" kept them from knowing right from wrong.

Everyone keeps talking about Casey and mental illness.. everyone! That's much of what we talk about in this case- "Was she depressed?", "PPD or PPP" "Does she have Bipolar?", "Is she a psychopath or does she have another personality disorder?", "was she psychotic?" It's all we talk about- we do want to understand her IMO and what this man right here has to say answers much of that for us, imo.

I absolutely agree Curious and OneLostGirl, but I think we're getting lost in our trying to understand the big "WHY"- at least I am - why would a young woman who appears to have lots of support, and every opportunity to make a life for herself and her child do this terrible thing? Why kill this beautiful child - WHY? And if we understand what she had - such as did she have PPD, or a psychopath or whatever- then we would be able to make some sense of this heinous crime.

I'm staying in that place that believes - she may be or may have whatever, but there are no excuses or mitigating factors that give you a get out of jail early for killing your child. Particularly this WASP female from Orlando.

OneLostGrl
01-17-2010, 11:26 PM
I absolutely agree Curious and OneLostGirl, but I think we're getting lost in our trying to understand the big "WHY"- at least I am - why would a young woman who appears to have lots of support, and every opportunity to make a life for herself and her child do this terrible thing? Why kill this beautiful child - WHY? And if we understand what she had - such as did she have PPD, or a psychopath or whatever- then we would be able to make some sense of this heinous crime.

I'm staying in that place that believes - she may be or may have whatever, but there are no excuses or mitigating factors that give you a get out of jail early for killing your child. Particularly this WASP female from Orlando.

I'm staying there too- I have no doubt in my mind that she has at least one, probably more than one personality disorders. lol I haven't even moved to "I'm sure she's guilty" yet!

Curious Me
01-18-2010, 02:03 AM
Ahh, but this is a man who's job is has been to evaluate people and go to court and help decide if a person is to be held criminally accountable for their crimes or if their "mental illness" kept them from knowing right from wrong.

Everyone keeps talking about Casey and mental illness.. everyone! That's much of what we talk about in this case- "Was she depressed?", "PPD or PPP" "Does she have Bipolar?", "Is she a psychopath or does she have another personality disorder?", "was she psychotic?" It's all we talk about- we do want to understand her IMO and what this man right here has to say answers much of that for us, imo.


The article is very informative and I think what this expert is saying is encouraging that KC is able to be held accountable, if other evidence shows that she was, in fact, the one that killed Caylee.

I've been on this forum awhile talking about this too. What I was trying to drive home was that the jury is not going to be made up of people who want to hear a bunch of psychology to decide why without first looking at the who and what of the crime. People have strong reactions in their gut to Casey being an unsympathic character that in turn makes one feel unsympathic to her. Learned behavior is not a term that's going to get that much consideration or sympathy, IMO.

JMO, a Personality Disorder such as Narcissist Personality Disorder is not a "Mental Illness". The way I read it KC has all the characteristics of someone with a cognitive problem maybe ADHD and some personality disorder or two, but KC is not mentally ill. She's competent to be held criminally accountable. So, it's good to have an expert clear that up for the jurors. As far as I know, the Defense team was not going that route anyways.

Looking ahead to when that panel of jurors are in deliberation, I wonder if they, too, will get caught up in all the psychology of why or will they be more concerned with other things like the evidence such as the duct tape, the timing, the smelly car, and so on. What do you think?

My eyes are worn out and that was a long article. I may have misread the meaning, and please feel free to point that out if so.



From the BRACE article:
"Based on her BRACE Character Profile, Casey Anthony is self-centered, self-justifying and self-promotional. It is all learned behavior, but there appears to be some type of memory dysfunction, not a matter of not knowing the difference between the truth and a lie, but rather not caring or not expecting to be caught or held responsible, perhaps aided by episodes of acute substance abuse. There is a semblance of confabulation and indifference to others or the truth, but there is something else.

There is an intentional quality to her indifference, a deliberate manipulation of others, a calculated purpose that affords her some type of personal reinforcement. Perhaps media coverage, perhaps the fame and fortune some are trying to cultivate through her, perhaps.


I take this above bolded section to mean that yes she knows exactly what she's doing, and is using it as a way to shine despite the crime. Pitiful.

logicalgirl
01-18-2010, 12:13 PM
All very well expressed CuriousMe, thank you for that. I have sympathy and a huge amount of admiration for those who struggle with mental illness - my own family is awash with it.

So you've said what I wanted to express, but much more clearly. I appreciate that Casey has one or more mental disorders, and they've been aggravated by her family profile - that much I feel sympathy for.

But, and it's a big but, it doesn't affect one iota of what I feel her sentence should be when she is found guilty by a jury.

Curious Me
01-18-2010, 04:21 PM
logicalgirl, thanks. I think you express yourself very well. Sorry you were exposed to so much with your family. Sharing and talking about this helps us all.

I think the only good thing that has come out of the investigation of these cases by the general population is that we have all become more aware of the need to identify mental conditions and personality disorders, and when possible provide help. Many of us have struggled with dealing with people that did not seem mentally ill, but had a personality disorder we couldn't pinpoint.

Of particular interest to me is Narcissism because I believe for some reason there is more of it in our society than ever before. It is not considered a mental illness, but a personality disorder. Maglignant narcissism is hard to treat, almost impossible to "cure" or control.

Most of us that are faced with someone like Casey do not have the psychological background to even name it or understand what's going on, and most of us are not trained to help them. The family and friends of a true malignant narcissist eventually have to give up on that person and not let them close because they bring damage to your life. I see the start of that in Casey's life where many of her old friends had been burned by her and weren't close friends with her anymore. She had to move on to new people, or victims to put it bluntly.

The Nuture versus Nature question, what came first the chicken or the egg, will probably be eventually somewhat answered by Science in the study of the brain. I wonder if Science proves it is purely a brain abnormality what that will mean. At this point, I do feel the narcissist is trapped in their own disordered personality and there's no way to help them, but I also believe they are still enough in control of their actions and do know right from wrong so they must be held accountable.

Yes, I actually do feel sympathy for someone with NPD, but you can bet I will deem myself untrained to help, and probably keep the person out of my life. It sounds so cold, I know, but people like Casey's grandmother Shirley might have felt that way too, after Casey selfishly stole Grandpa's nursing home money. I urge any family member or friend that is struggling to help a malignant narcissist to examine whether you have the training to deal with this problem, and if not to get yourself further information that might help you keep your own sanity because you are in for a wild ride.

OneLostGrl
01-20-2010, 03:53 PM
weeeelll, Russell.. :angel: lol

ZsaZsa
01-23-2010, 08:15 PM
Maybe, but not sure what you mean by KC would lie and have a way out because:

1. She took money from her grandmother's account and had no way out.
2. She took money from her grandfather's SS account that paid for the nursing home and had no way out.
3. She claimed she was not pregnant..certainly was no way out of that one that she utilized.
4. She claimed she worked at Universal, no way out of that one.
5. Lied about attending college, no way out of that one either.
6. etc., etc., etc. and I could go on all night.

I have yet to see where KC actually lied and had a way out. She may have, I just don't think we have seen any type of thought process in terms of the grand scheme of plans she may have had. There was NOTHING planned for her future and worse because KC even stole money from her daughter's piggy bank, KC had no plans for her daughter either. jmo

She had a permanent 'way out' with GA and CA though- neither had the backbone to deal with what they knew were terrible character problems in their daughter- ignore it and it will go away. No wonder she despises them.

Schmerty_Jones
01-23-2010, 08:46 PM
She had a permanent 'way out' with GA and CA though- neither had the backbone to deal with what they knew were terrible character problems in their daughter- ignore it and it will go away. No wonder she despises them.

It is so dangerous to put your head in the sand when a developing offspring shows clearly that they will get what they want including from the old & frail(Grandparents) or the young and helpless( Caylee) It is the parents responsibility to make sure wrong & right is learned & practiced by your child.This has to be imprinted even if punishment for wrong is the necessary
result!

Bobbisangel
01-24-2010, 04:21 AM
It is so dangerous to put your head in the sand when a developing offspring shows clearly that they will get what they want including from the old & frail(Grandparents) or the young and helpless( Caylee) It is the parents responsibility to make sure wrong & right is learned & practiced by your child.This has to be imprinted even if punishment for wrong is the necessary
result!


I wonder how old Casey was when she started showing the traits of a sociopath? Was she a child...teenager...or around the time she had Caylee?
How long has she been telling tales like she does when she can look the other person right in the eyes and not even blink.? When did all of this behavior begin?

Most kids wouldn't even think of stealing from their grandparents. Well, a drug addict would because they have to have money for their drugs regardless how they get it. If it takes robbing gramma and grandpa...oh well. Their first love is the drug. Otherwise it's hard to believe a grandchild would steal from gramma and grandpa. I wonder if she had a close relationship with her grandparents. Somehow I don't think that she did.

If this behavior began when Casey was young I don't think it would have helped her to take her to a therapist. There is no way to help a sociopath. They are born without a conscience and without that they can't be helped.

We can see though that Cindy just ran after Casey paying back money she would steal and covering for her. Regardless of what Casey did I think Cindy was always behind her cleaning up the mess. Thank God this is one mess that mama can't cover up...pay off or anything else. Her and George are trying their best to convinve people that Casey didn't do it and that is about all they can do. I wonder why they keep trying when she won't even see them and hasn't for a year or more.

doogiesgirl
04-03-2010, 09:26 AM
Looking at the A family from this point in time, a year and a half + later, certainly does give one a clearer picture of what likely went on in that household.

Just read through this whole thread.....very interesting and some very informative links. For some reason I started thinking about the conversation that CA had with Ryan P. Her calling him and telling him to stay away from KC as KC was a sociopath and CA didn't want RP to get hurt. Then my next thought was of CA telling AL that she hoped AL had a lot of money b/c KC would clean him out and then leave him high and dry. Thinking about these conversations now, it got me to wondering a couple of things.

Such as:
#!--Why would CA tell RP that unless KC had had a "romantic" relationship with him at some point? Or maybe even an ongoing off and on one. I am wondering if RP knows a lot more about KC/the family, than we've read about so far. After all, he is the one boy who had many family meals with the A's, spent a good amount of time around the family, and he is the one that GA said he would be glad to see KC end up with. And they have known each other since what.....elementary or middle school? A long time.

#2--She tells TL the first time she meets him that KC will burn him basically.....so did CA know KC had a long history of this with "boyfriends"?

In the links OLG posted one of them talks about the damage it can do to a child growing up under the thumb of a narcissistic mother. And how it causes even further damage when the father, who is in a position to protect, does not protect but instead allows the emotional abuse (and possibly physical also) to happen, the info is that it does even further damage to the child. It's like a double whammy to the child's pysche. So KC was probably born with the hard wiring to begin with, but the mother/father dynamic in that household is probably what lit the fuse to the hard wiring KC was born with. The phrase in the article that hit me like a two by four was that growing up in that kind of environment can cause "soul murder". I have my own reasons for that phrase catching my attention but we will stick to KC.

So was CA aware of KC's habit of using people, boyfriends in particular (but also girlfriends), yet CA refused to acknowledge any kind of destructive pattern.....any kind of mental illness? I think so. I believe as a nurse she did know she had a disturbed daughter but she choose to ignore it as it would have busted the illusion she had worked so hard to create of the "perfect family". IMO I believe KC to be a psychopath but I know many have diagnosed her as a sociopath or an ASP. However we are allowed to have differences of opinion here thank goodness.

And where was LA in this family dynamic? Was he the "forgotten" child who secretly hated his sister for all the attention(bad or good) she got from the parents and all the dirty deeds she got away with? I wonder if LA's dark period during his teen years we've heard CA talk about was due to living with a psycho sister like KC and parents that ignored his existence. He has to be carrying around a lot of "soul" damage himself IMO. And IMO, only cutting ties with his parents and KC for a period of time, while he heals/finds some kind of treatment will restore some of what he lost/endured growing up in that house.

It's just amazing looking back since all this time has gone by to see how differently things look at this juncture.


See OLG's post that I forgot to quote in this post but quoted below. Thanks.

Also, looking back now, after a year and a half plus has gone by, one can really see just how far off the mark of normal CA esp was for a grandmother who lead us to believe she had a missing/(most likely dead grand daughter to the rest of us)......I mean.....right off the top of my head, I can't recall seeing any real breakdown of tears/bawling, losing it, as one would expect of a grandmother who was in that situation. I am thinking that both of these grand parents were well aware that Caylee was dead early on and choose to deceive the world.....they deserve to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law IMO. And I am hoping that all in good time, they will be. MOO

:cow:

doogiesgirl
04-03-2010, 09:30 AM
IMO a typical family birth order situation is different than a family with personality disorders.

I have linked this before but will again in case anyone is interested in reading it.

part 1-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642&cn=8

2-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28645

3-
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=5&e=28646

These are the links that I meant to quote in the above post. Thanks OLG for these....very informative. DG

moo

ButForFortune
04-03-2010, 01:50 PM
Looking at the A family from this point in time, a year and a half + later, certainly does give one a clearer picture of what likely went on in that household.

Just read through this whole thread.....very interesting and some very informative links. For some reason I started thinking about the conversation that CA had with Ryan P. Her calling him and telling him to stay away from KC as KC was a sociopath and CA didn't want RP to get hurt. Then my next thought was of CA telling AL that she hoped AL had a lot of money b/c KC would clean him out and then leave him high and dry. Thinking about these conversations now, it got me to wondering a couple of things.

Such as:
#!--Why would CA tell RP that unless KC had had a "romantic" relationship with him at some point? Or maybe even an ongoing off and on one. I am wondering if RP knows a lot more about KC/the family, than we've read about so far. After all, he is the one boy who had many family meals with the A's, spent a good amount of time around the family, and he is the one that GA said he would be glad to see KC end up with. And they have known each other since what.....elementary or middle school? A long time.

#2--She tells TL the first time she meets him that KC will burn him basically.....so did CA know KC had a long history of this with "boyfriends"?

In the links OLG posted one of them talks about the damage it can do to a child growing up under the thumb of a narcissistic mother. And how it causes even further damage when the father, who is in a position to protect, does not protect but instead allows the emotional abuse (and possibly physical also) to happen, the info is that it does even further damage to the child. It's like a double whammy to the child's pysche. So KC was probably born with the hard wiring to begin with, but the mother/father dynamic in that household is probably what lit the fuse to the hard wiring KC was born with. The phrase in the article that hit me like a two by four was that growing up in that kind of environment can cause "soul murder". I have my own reasons for that phrase catching my attention but we will stick to KC.

So was CA aware of KC's habit of using people, boyfriends in particular (but also girlfriends), yet CA refused to acknowledge any kind of destructive pattern.....any kind of mental illness? I think so. I believe as a nurse she did know she had a disturbed daughter but she choose to ignore it as it would have busted the illusion she had worked so hard to create of the "perfect family". IMO I believe KC to be a psychopath but I know many have diagnosed her as a sociopath or an ASP. However we are allowed to have differences of opinion here thank goodness.

And where was LA in this family dynamic? Was he the "forgotten" child who secretly hated his sister for all the attention(bad or good) she got from the parents and all the dirty deeds she got away with? I wonder if LA's dark period during his teen years we've heard CA talk about was due to living with a psycho sister like KC and parents that ignored his existence. He has to be carrying around a lot of "soul" damage himself IMO. And IMO, only cutting ties with his parents and KC for a period of time, while he heals/finds some kind of treatment will restore some of what he lost/endured growing up in that house.

It's just amazing looking back since all this time has gone by to see how differently things look at this juncture.


See OLG's post that I forgot to quote in this post but quoted below. Thanks.

Also, looking back now, after a year and a half plus has gone by, one can really see just how far off the mark of normal CA esp was for a grandmother who lead us to believe she had a missing/(most likely dead grand daughter to the rest of us)......I mean.....right off the top of my head, I can't recall seeing any real breakdown of tears/bawling, losing it, as one would expect of a grandmother who was in that situation. I am thinking that both of these grand parents were well aware that Caylee was dead early on and choose to deceive the world.....they deserve to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law IMO. And I am hoping that all in good time, they will be. MOO

:cow:

IIRC I believe LA's dark period during high school was due to a severe reaction to the prescription medication Accutane - he was very ill for a period of time and unable to participate in sports and other normal high school activities. However, I agree wholeheartedly that he was probably a somewhat ignored child. I believe KC was the "favorite", the princess who could do no wrong in that family and was spoiled rotten even while she was simultaneously causing havoc and unrest within the family. I cannot imagine LA as a teenager observing the unfairness of her "special" treatment and trying to survive the family dynamics. I do believe on some level LA hates KC. My opinion only.

doogiesgirl
04-03-2010, 03:12 PM
IIRC I believe LA's dark period during high school was due to a severe reaction to the prescription medication Accutane - he was very ill for a period of time and unable to participate in sports and other normal high school activities. However, I agree wholeheartedly that he was probably a somewhat ignored child. I believe KC was the "favorite", the princess who could do no wrong in that family and was spoiled rotten even while she was simultaneously causing havoc and unrest within the family. I cannot imagine LA as a teenager observing the unfairness of her "special" treatment and trying to survive the family dynamics. I do believe on some level LA hates KC. My opinion only.


Yes I know that's what CA's explanation was for LA's depression in his teen years but I don't trust anything CA says. So I was saying that IMO it is a very good possibility that his dark period was due to lack of attention from his parents and his parents overlooking or making excuses for all KC's bad behavior.

:cow:.

MOO

littlemisslegal
04-04-2010, 09:16 AM
years ago i worked for a lcsw whos practice was for multiple personalitys, abuse of sexual and satanic cult survivors. the abuse , grief,and traumatic events in some clients lives were a pattern i saw in leading to this disorder of alternate reality. some clients had so many versions of different selfs. some male, female, child. it was amazing to actually make a family tree of a clients many splits. ONE HAD OVER 40! SHE WAS MARRIED TOO AND HUBBBY DEALT WITH ALL!
i am not a doctor or claim to know if casey suffers from this disorder. if her attorney was smart he or she may try to bring this theory into place. the good casey we see in pics, loving her little girl. the friends who say she was a good mom and she changed.she became party girl. her way of blending to accomodate whoever she tries to shadow. her lies that can be proven so easy. i do not believe casey is stupid and can not figure out if she brings cops to universal to say heres my office she would consider this a done deal in reality check by others. she has to know it will not fly in the world of truth. so -- i can only believe shes a multiple. hurt by life, by i do not know who. some post trauma stress - she did not want to be a mom, tried her best but some part of her split off- she wanted an alternate reality IMO.

pip
04-04-2010, 09:30 AM
I don't see a MPD in her at all. My thought is that she became a sociopath due to very poor character qualities in both of her parents. The lying, narcisscism, and the rest of sociopathic tendencies the A's have revealed have created a full-blown sociopath in Casey. And now that she has crossed the line into murder, she categorizes as a psychopath. Lee exhibits the same traits IMO. Just listen to his media interviews, his deposition. His own PI "investigations". Narcisscism and lie after lie. Aye, yi, yi. Apples don't fall to far from the tree. JMO.

gogrannypop
04-04-2010, 09:38 AM
I believe that she is the way she is because she was never held accountable for her actions. Caylee, I believe was the parents trying to make her grow up and become a responsible and productive member of society. Unfortunately for precious Caylee, it was too late.

littlemisslegal
04-04-2010, 09:42 AM
she may be that for sure. the most amazing puzzling thing i can not seem to understand is the lies that can be so obvious. shes suppose to be smart they claim. she can not be so confident of her self that an outright lie can not be proven in seconds. i am not talking about a lie that can be disguised for a bit of time- i am talking like INSTANTLY-LOL!! when she walked thru the gates of universal, with a crowd of law enforcement following! was she the bit nervous? was she thinking oh shi-- what am i doing? we have made lists of her lies and i can only say - how can this be her world of reality day to day? does she argue with herself? does she think- boy i better stop lies cause they will commit me to insane ward? this was all before we even knew of caylee being dead. the only thing i believe is shes not well , she lies and she does not even know it . she splits off and becomes another reality. do not know if it has a classic name like multiple but she sure has her own reality show in her mind of whats going to fly as for the truth by others. sad i think-cause i do not think she even knows she lies so much. maybe she shocks herself. BTW i am going to hearing tommorrow

ZsaZsa
04-04-2010, 09:45 AM
Then again it could be that she's just a thief and a liar and nothing more complicated than that. Jails are full of them.

TheMeaningOfItAll
04-04-2010, 09:55 AM
Nah. If she had MPD, it would have been blurted from the get-go by her family as an excuse as to her odd behavior. I think she's just a low-grade con artist/sociopath who studies people and uses their personality traits (i.e. generosity, insecurity, disconnection) to get what she wants. I think that many of us have tried to come up with a reason (drugs, mental illness, etc.) why Casey would do what she has allegedly done to our dear, sweet Caylee because we just can't fathom a mother doing something like that. But it does happen...Susan Smith is a prime example.

pip
04-04-2010, 10:20 AM
Then again it could be that she's just a thief and a liar and nothing more complicated than that. Jails are full of them.
I would agree, but now that the dynamics of the entire family has been revealed, it does seem alot more complicated than garden variety thieves and liars. I think there is something a lil more pathological going on there.

pip
04-04-2010, 10:33 AM
she may be that for sure. the most amazing puzzling thing i can not seem to understand is the lies that can be so obvious. shes suppose to be smart they claim. she can not be so confident of her self that an outright lie can not be proven in seconds. i am not talking about a lie that can be disguised for a bit of time- i am talking like INSTANTLY-LOL!! when she walked thru the gates of universal, with a crowd of law enforcement following! was she the bit nervous? was she thinking oh shi-- what am i doing? we have made lists of her lies and i can only say - how can this be her world of reality day to day? does she argue with herself? does she think- boy i better stop lies cause they will commit me to insane ward? this was all before we even knew of caylee being dead. the only thing i believe is shes not well , she lies and she does not even know it . she splits off and becomes another reality. do not know if it has a classic name like multiple but she sure has her own reality show in her mind of whats going to fly as for the truth by others. sad i think-cause i do not think she even knows she lies so much. maybe she shocks herself. BTW i am going to hearing tommorrow

She's grasping for straws. She is smart enough to know she's busted, and how obvious it is. But true to a sociopath, she'll add a thousand lies ontop to cover the truth. Example: Even though an object may be 'blue', and a thousand people confirm it, Casey will stick to her guns and say it is 'white', or stray to perhaps 'grey' to throw you off. But she'll NEVER admit it is blue. Her version of reality will reign, but not because she believes it to be blue. She is only serving her own agenda. She is not insane.
The part that makes this such a high interest case is that you have her entire family (who's own precious grand daughter was murdered and dumped like trash) claiming the object is 'white' also! It's a given her defense team will claim 'white' along with Casey, but the family also? A rarity! You see that sometimes when a son or daughter has murdered someone outside the family, but not their own grand daughter. It speaks volumes about Casey's root pathology.

Jolynna
04-04-2010, 10:42 AM
Mark Hacking didn't think he was really going to medical school when he bought textbooks and told his wife he spent his days in class. Scott Peterson didn't really think he was a widower although he'd told Amber F. he was. When Mr. Peterson purchased a boat to go "fishing" he didn't really think he was going to "fish". Although that is what he said.

Casey KNEW when she paraded down Universal's halls followed by a herd of LE that they weren't headed for her "office". She turned to LE when push came to shove and said, "I don't really have a job". She knew where she was and what was up. Later in the same interview she said "I lied". No delusions. No voices.

There is a big difference between being CLINICALLY mentally ill (not mentally healthy) and LEGALLY mentally ill (unable to tell right from wrong).

gogrannypop
04-04-2010, 10:50 AM
I do believe KC is a psychopath and a sociopath with a little bit of delusion thrown in for good measure. Her brain has some kind of faulty wiring. That is for sure.

OneLostGrl
04-06-2010, 01:34 PM
I just came across some more good reading and thought I'd share the link if anyone is interested..

http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

ynotdivein
04-09-2010, 11:40 PM
Bumping for added insights now that letters are out.

Curious Me
04-10-2010, 02:08 AM
I just came across some more good reading and thought I'd share the link if anyone is interested..

http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

Robyn answered that Casey was always upbeat, whereas, Robyn was always depressed being in jail. It's again reminding me of narcissists I've known that had these fearless, positive attitudes even when faced with the harsh realities. Casey is blinded by the light, she thinks is herself, and will never truly see what she's done.

The letters showed that "we're so similar, so close, so bonded, we're on the same team" ploy narcissists and cons use to get you on their side fast. I remember reading that in the book Gift of Fear.

Interesting to see it in action, the way Casey was describing her deep BBF bond with Robyn. Calling Robyn "SISTER". (if she ever had a sister she'd be even more jealous than over Caylee!) It's probably a comfort for Casey to not feel so alone, and to obtain some n-supply from new blood, but Robyn could be changed out just like Amy, Annie, Jesse, Ricardo, etc., were. People are really things - Casey has "her boys" attorneys now, but before she had another group of "her boys". Cays was her little Rock Star, and maybe a Beautiful Life.

belle3
04-10-2010, 10:14 AM
when i think of the family dynamic i often wonder if casey and caylee were being raised more as sister figures than mother and daughter? im sure caylee called cindy mama alot and it drove casey crazy. the duct tape always seemed so personal and to state a message. almost like caylee was sayin im gonna tell mama what you did to me or where you left me. or cindy saying im gonna tape you to that bed if i have to,to keep you here to take care of your responsibilities, which by the way, i dont think happened because cindy never held her accountable. it sends such a definite message, imo, and its not an accident. im sure someone in that house knows why casey chose to duct tape that child and that is why they deny, deny, deny, there ever being a fight.

3girls
04-10-2010, 10:29 AM
Just replying to the above thread - the tape makes me wonder if she was making a point to ca and ga - like when she told them in jail that she didn't tell them anything (le) Maybe she put the tape on Caylee's mouth to symbolize keeping her mouth shut and not talking about something that was secret in the family. Kind of like, see what you made me do by keeping my mouth shut?

Pensfan
04-11-2010, 12:20 AM
IMO-
Cindy is codependent. (She keeps the family secrets. Suffers with the guilt and shame. Has LOTS of repressed anger. Keeps unemployed, cheating George around because of ??? =her low self esteem.) Has Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder (see relationship with daughter). Slightly OCD (Needs perfect house. Wanted perfect daughter and was helicopter mom). Definitely has Major Depression. Probably addicted to benzos (Has a narcissistic sociopath as a daughter. Has Bipolar, unemployed crazy husband and NEEDS benzos to survive).

George has Major Depression (Married to witchy Cindy and has sociopathic daughter) and is also codependent. He probably has Borderline Personality Disorder or is Bipolar (Unable to handle money or a job much of the time. Has major mood swings. His dad had mental illness-hereditary possibility) He is victim of domestic emotional abuse (Had to lives with Cindy and KC) and probably abused as a child (His dad was BP. Family is estranged. He is an angry, unpredictable man). Possibly a hypochondriac (Goes with his Major Depression and nurse wife). Possibly addicted to benzos and/or alcohol (Goes with the crazy family territory). Definitely suffers from Cindy Induced Erectile Dysfunction (Don't need to explain that to anyone here).

LiveLaughLuv
04-11-2010, 09:28 AM
Psychologists: Jailhouse letters offer insight into Casey Anthony’s life behind bars
By Sarah Lundy, Orlando Sentinel

2:01 a.m. EDT, April 11, 2010

The letters Casey Anthony penned in jail show an immature woman who needs attention and adoration from others.

That's what three psychologists gleaned from reviewing dozens of Anthony's hand-written notes and letters to a fellow inmate at the Orange County Jail. The doctors agreed to read and give insight from the letters at the request of the Orlando Sentinel.

more at the link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/caylee-anthony/os-casey-anthony-letters-analyzed-20100411,0,2547677.story


<<<<various snippets of pertinent parts of assessment>>>>>

"She is spending most of her time in isolation with no audience. She has no outlet for the stuff that goes through her mind," said Dr. Daniel Tressler, a forensic psychologist based in Altamonte Springs.

Altamonte Springs psychologist Dr. Barbara Mara described Anthony as someone with a great need to vent her conflicting emotions, including her fears, anxiety and unresolved anger toward her family.

"She portrays immature unrealistic kinds of thoughts," Mara said, adding some of it could be Anthony coping with her situation.

Dr. Robert Janner, a Winter Park psychologist, found some of the letters reflect Anthony's attempt to "comfort herself through reminiscing about watching old movies and wearing comfortable clothes in some letters, while conversely fantasizing about romantic contact with men, and feminine pampering and fashionable adornment," he said.

In her writings, Anthony attempts to make Adams feel special as a friend.

"Always remember that I love you, Robyn, my best friend that I have ever had and my big sister," Anthony wrote. "We are family — and we are never apart — families are bound by that unconditional love. I'm always here and always will be."

This is just not realistic, doctors said.

"The level of emotion likely exceeds what common people would ever experience, as it is a gross distortion of reality," Janner said.

Anthony doesn't mention many details about her case. She rarely wrote about Caylee, and when she did it appears to be in a superficial, detached way, the psychologists said. But, they said, there could be two very different reasons for this.

Anthony could be in denial that was triggered by some loss or emotional trauma, such as the death of her daughter. Another option could be there was never a bond between the mother and child.

"In that case, if there was a weak attachment, there would be a weak response to loss," Tressler said.

The psychologists agree Anthony spends passages in her letters devoted toward her image — trying to make herself and her actions appear better than what she is being portrayed as in public.

She described herself as a "great mom" and wished she never let Caylee out of her sight.

Tressler wonders if Anthony wrote these letters thinking one day they may become public.

"There is a tenor to her disclosures that are very much rehabilitative of what she thinks her image is in the world," Tressler said.

LiveLaughLuv
04-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Another great assessment....


http://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/casey-anthony’s-hatred-and-disgust-towards-her-mother-cindy-reflected-in-jailhouse-letters-along-with-brother-lee’s-sexual-molestation/

belle3
04-11-2010, 12:03 PM
if we could just know what was going on in that family around the time she got pregnant.i was thinking about the reason behind caseys pregnancy. i think its pretty well established that casey is a liar and has been one for a good portion of her life. i wonder if there was a specific motivation for casey to get pregnant. who was her target with this pregnancy? i know its a horrible thought but this girl does nothing without there being something in it for her. as usual she doesnt think her plans through and forgot that little cuddly babies grow up and talk. i personally think the pregnancy was a way to garner more sympathy from her mother and who knows she may have even told cindy that it was george's or lee's. but i believe that caylees pregnancy was a means to an end for her and when caylees effectiveness to that end disappeared so did caylee.

SuperChick
04-15-2010, 01:33 AM
if we could just know what was going on in that family around the time she got pregnant.i was thinking about the reason behind caseys pregnancy. i think its pretty well established that casey is a liar and has been one for a good portion of her life. i wonder if there was a specific motivation for casey to get pregnant. who was her target with this pregnancy? i know its a horrible thought but this girl does nothing without there being something in it for her. as usual she doesnt think her plans through and forgot that little cuddly babies grow up and talk. i personally think the pregnancy was a way to garner more sympathy from her mother and who knows she may have even told cindy that it was george's or lee's. but i believe that caylees pregnancy was a means to an end for her and when caylees effectiveness to that end disappeared so did caylee.

I always wonder about her motivation for getting pregnant as well. And even more so, why she chose to hide/deny it until she was essentially forced to go to the doctor. This is purely my speculation, but I believe Casey did this in order to ensure she would HAVE the baby and not be pressured into terminating the pregnancy by either the real father or her image obsessed mother. I think she had Caylee either to manipulate Cindy or Caylee's father. I also believe that Casey was so self-centered the motivation for murder could be as simple as wanting more time to smoke pot at Tony's or perhaps Casey thought it was less attractive to be the mother of an adolescent so better to get rid of her while she's still so cute to potential bf's. It sickens me to think it.

butwhatif?
04-15-2010, 02:16 AM
Interesting that this thread has been bumped back up. Just last night I was thinking about KC's psych profile and googled to see if Dr Michael Stone had anything to say about her...Not yet. Maybe after the trial.


I used to think she was a sociopath- but now I'm leaning more towards narcissistic personality disorder with other overlapping disorders . I think she does have emotions- she just doesn't like facing them.

JMO

PS:
How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

(a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve around him.
(b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.

ynotdivein
04-15-2010, 02:20 AM
I always wonder about her motivation for getting pregnant as well. And even more so, why she chose to hide/deny it until she was essentially forced to go to the doctor. This is purely my speculation, but I believe Casey did this in order to ensure she would HAVE the baby and not be pressured into terminating the pregnancy by either the real father or her image obsessed mother.

Respectfully SBM SuperChick.

SC I get your point but just can't envision a KC who wants to give birth to and raise a child on her own. And I just can't believe KC had a "motivation" for getting pregnant. It was an entirely predictable end result of her behaviors, but she was denying those behaviors just as she denied that she was pregnant for 7 months. (Remember she has only slept with what, SEVEN guys according to her letters?) Good lord if she got pregnant then she would lose her figure & would have to step up with responsibilities & THEN what would happen????

SuperChick, not an attack on you at all--you just got me thinking!

denjet
04-15-2010, 04:16 PM
Interesting that this thread has been bumped back up. Just last night I was thinking about KC's psych profile and googled to see if Dr Michael Stone had anything to say about her...Not yet. Maybe after the trial.


I used to think she was a sociopath- but now I'm leaning more towards narcissistic personality disorder with other overlapping disorders . I think she does have emotions- she just doesn't like facing them.

JMO

PS:
How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

(a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve around him.
(b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.

:laugh: Perfect! I'll have to remember that one ...

JBean
04-24-2010, 11:26 AM
bumpity bump

SuperChick
04-24-2010, 10:33 PM
ynot, no offense taken. Glad to get your interest. I see what your point about her not wanting to ruin her figure. She would be that selfish. I don't know about you, but I'm just fascinated by her denying her pregnancy for soo long. I've heard it happens to women. I knew immediately. Also I just think why not have an abortion if you dont want a child? I doubt her "morals" would stop her. that's a laugh.

You think she was in denial? I think she's well aware of her lies. I don't think she's ever been in denial. I think those around her are in denial. I think she gets a sadistic thrill out of lying and manipulating others. She thinks it makes her "smarter" than them. Just my opinion.

Ynot, thanks again for your perspective!

ynotdivein
04-25-2010, 12:16 AM
ynot, no offense taken. Glad to get your interest. I see what your point about her not wanting to ruin her figure. She would be that selfish. I don't know about you, but I'm just fascinated by her denying her pregnancy for soo long.

RS&BBM

MEEEE TOO! Having taught in all-girls high schools I have seen this kind of denial first-hand. They know they are pregnant but then get stuck somehow. (Might as well add that IMO KC is psychologically younger than her lived years--fodder for another post--and I see in her behaviors a lot of what I saw in some h.s. students.) "If I tell this to my parents to ask for money to pay for an abortion, they will either kick me out or make me have the baby. Either way I am no longer the perfect virgin in their eyes and I don't know if my ego would survive falling off this pedestal that we've all concocted for me to stand on... And I have been taught/developed no internal mechanism for decision-making because it has usually been done for me. And therefore, I will make no decision. If I ignore this it won't exist. And if it exists mom will clean up the mess." If you look at some of KC's lies you see that in a twisted way she is trying to live up to expectations--I have a job. I am not pregnant. What must dinnertable conversation have been like in that home? Stilted and painful I would imagine. Particularly during the pregnancy.


You think she was in denial? I think she's well aware of her lies. I don't think she's ever been in denial. I think those around her are in denial. I think she gets a sadistic thrill out of lying and manipulating others. She thinks it makes her "smarter" than them. Just my opinion.

I do think the pregnancy surprised her and required a great deal of denial (both on her side and on CA/GA's side!)... but the lies she tells to manipulate people and to get herself out of trouble, I totally agree, she is aware of and in control of. Thanks for :poke:ing me noggin!

RR0004
04-25-2010, 12:23 AM
RS&BBM

MEEEE TOO! Having taught in all-girls high schools I have seen this kind of denial first-hand. They know they are pregnant but then get stuck somehow. (Might as well add that IMO KC is psychologically younger than her lived years--fodder for another post--and I see in her behaviors a lot of what I saw in some h.s. students.) "If I tell this to my parents to ask for money to pay for an abortion, they will either kick me out or make me have the baby. Either way I am no longer the perfect virgin in their eyes and I don't know if my ego would survive falling off this pedestal that we've all concocted for me to stand on... And I have been taught/developed no internal mechanism for decision-making because it has usually been done for me. And therefore, I will make no decision. If I ignore this it won't exist. And if it exists mom will clean up the mess." If you look at some of KC's lies you see that in a twisted way she is trying to live up to expectations--I have a job. I am not pregnant. What must dinnertable conversation have been like in that home? Stilted and painful I would imagine. Particularly during the pregnancy.



I do think the pregnancy surprised her and required a great deal of denial (both on her side and on CA/GA's side!)... but the lies she tells to manipulate people and to get herself out of trouble, I totally agree, she is aware of and in control of. Thanks for :poke:ing me noggin!
I know of another young girl (from a good family) who hid her pregnancy from her parents...her baby ended up dead as well. What can these girls be thinking...that if they deny the child exists they'll never give birth? Could it be an incredible fear of their parents' reactions?

ynotdivein
04-25-2010, 12:41 AM
I know of another young girl (from a good family) who hid her pregnancy from her parents...her baby ended up dead as well. What can these girls be thinking...that if they deny the child exists they'll never give birth? Could it be an incredible fear of their parents' reactions?

RR, I really think it is, in many cases. The pedestal is a sort of trite metaphor but it's powerful...

kellymay77
05-04-2010, 03:27 PM
Hello sleuthers :) Coming out of lurkdom to tell you about Dr. Phils program today on Bully moms. My first thought was Casey, huge insight for me anyway. It is disturbing and heart breaking. Worth a watch...

OneLostGrl
05-04-2010, 03:45 PM
Hello sleuthers :) Coming out of lurkdom to tell you about Dr. Phils program today on Bully moms. My first thought was Casey, huge insight for me anyway. It is disturbing and heart breaking. Worth a watch...

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h13/OneLostGrl/Caylee/939366e64yvqnvlf.gif

logicalgirl
05-04-2010, 03:49 PM
Hello sleuthers :) Coming out of lurkdom to tell you about Dr. Phils program today on Bully moms. My first thought was Casey, huge insight for me anyway. It is disturbing and heart breaking. Worth a watch...

Welcome kellymay77! Hope you'll find a "home" here at WS.

Are you meaning you see Cindy as a "Bully Mom"?

kellymay77
05-04-2010, 04:06 PM
Welcome kellymay77! Hope you'll find a "home" here at WS.

Are you meaning you see Cindy as a "Bully Mom"?

It's about young mom's that have anger rages towards their children. Casey's mannerisms are so similar to the mom's on the show. I could see Cindy being like this too when Casey was younger but not likely as severe. It really blew me away and gave my the shivers being I could see how a mother could be so angry to kill their own children after watching this. So so wrong...

Kind of ironic aspect of the show is Dr. Phil covers 'reaching out', one of the Anthonys favourite sayings :banghead:

kellymay77
05-04-2010, 04:32 PM
...another insightful show maybe. I just saw an ad for an upcoming Dr. Oz show. It's about how moms can murder, looks very interesting. Talks about causes.

Aedrys
05-04-2010, 07:51 PM
I don't see how you can hide your pregnancy unless (and excuse me for being blunt) you're a really big person..With my first I managed to hide my pregnancy from my boss til I was 7 months pregnant. This pregnancy I could have done the same thing if the situation was applicable. I've stayed pretty small up until about 7 months then suddenly blew up like a balloon. All during month 7 there were certain types of blouses I could wear that would make people wonder if I was pregnant or not, but now that I'm 8 months there's absolutely no hiding it.

The only picture I've seen of KC at the wedding where she was 7 months, she definitely didn't even look like she was trying to hide it..and if she were she didn't do a very good job. Not to mention that typically you start to feel your baby bouncing around at about month 5, sooner if it isn't your first pregnancy.

But when faced with family members questioning her pregnancy, why THEN did she try to hide it? And with her mother's help? Do they enjoy making themselves look stupid? Mama always told me "actions speak louder than words", and based off their actions, I'd say the answer to my question is not only do they enjoy it, but it's their favorite thing to do.

I don't get that either! That is what has bothered the most about this family. The evidence is there, knocking them over the head, and still, they look like fools as they deny it. I cannot believe they thought they could go to that wedding with Casey looking that pregnant and NOT have someone ask about it! And then deny it when they did! And Casey saying she'd have to have sex to be pregnant, um, yes, Casey, we're glad your mom had that particular talk with you even though she obviously left out birth control or you were zoned out by that point. Anyway, like that explanation would mean she wasn't pregnant. I'm surprised she didn't say it was an immaculate conception. If you're going to go that far into denial, you might as well go all the way, sheesh! (And I'm thinking it was denial by choice, not by fear. Like if I say it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.).

I swear, it's like someone else said, even if there was a video of Casey committing Caylee's murder and it was shown to the A's, Cindy would swear that's not Casey or Caylee in the video. It's like they truly believe that if they say it's not true or doesn't exist, then it's really not true or really does not exist . I have never seen people who believe that more than they do. Their logic is not even alien logic much less earth logic. I don't think you can even call it logic. It's just ignorance shrouded in madness.

celticthyme
05-04-2010, 08:52 PM
We're talking about 10 minute Casey here. I think her pregnancy was a total accident,
(spur of the moment sexual activity) and likely came as a surprise to her. The fact that she'd contemplated "giving it up" makes me think that she knew she was not up to taking care of a baby.

Cindy made her keep the baby, but then also they go through the charade of denying the pregnancy at her uncle's wedding. Boggles the mind . . .

logicalgirl
05-04-2010, 08:58 PM
I don't see how you can hide your pregnancy unless (and excuse me for being blunt) you're a really big person..With my first I managed to hide my pregnancy from my boss til I was 7 months pregnant. This pregnancy I could have done the same thing if the situation was applicable. I've stayed pretty small up until about 7 months then suddenly blew up like a balloon. All during month 7 there were certain types of blouses I could wear that would make people wonder if I was pregnant or not, but now that I'm 8 months there's absolutely no hiding it.

The only picture I've seen of KC at the wedding where she was 7 months, she definitely didn't even look like she was trying to hide it..and if she were she didn't do a very good job. Not to mention that typically you start to feel your baby bouncing around at about month 5, sooner if it isn't your first pregnancy.

But when faced with family members questioning her pregnancy, why THEN did she try to hide it? And with her mother's help? Do they enjoy making themselves look stupid? Mama always told me "actions speak louder than words", and based off their actions, I'd say the answer to my question is not only do they enjoy it, but it's their favorite thing to do.

I actually don't think anyone was actually trying to hide Casey's pregnancy at all. This was a family gathering, and a daughter being pregnant out of wedlock would be so embarrassing and shameful to Cindy and George's idea of the perfect family they try to present to everyone, I think they chose to make up a story and stick to it, and be oblivious to what a huge lie it was.
Doesn't that sound familiar as the way they always handle things in that family?

I think all that was just to "save face" - making it abundantly clear you love your puritan reputation more than you love your daughter or a truthful existence.

Isn't the birth of a child a blessed event, and the "circumstances" of that conception pretty incidental these days?

Pensfan
05-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Ha I couldn't agree more with that last statement, BBM. I see what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, though seems like it would have been easier to come up with an excuse as to why KC couldn't attend. Maybe she wanted the attention?
(Respectfuly)Nah. KC went to the wedding to get her Narcissistic Supply (attention). Narcissistic KC requires constant narcissistic supply similar to how you and I require oxygen. She believes her life is a movie and everyone should watch. She is constantly on display and sucking up narcissistic supply from her audience. She received gratification from everyone gossiping/staring at her at this event. She was happy about being scandalous and notorious. Her gossiping family was her “narcissistic oxygen” for the day.

Cindy, another narcissist IMPO, clearly operates only from her False Self. She rarely or never takes off her False Self mask which is required for her to escape from her pathological circumstances (sociopathic daughter, wimpy husband, imperfect life...etc...) During this wedding, CA’s False Self allowed her to feel immune and superior to her family's judgement and gossiping.

How CA's False Self thinks: "I am so perfect. My family will not believe my unmarried daughter is prego."

countzero
05-04-2010, 11:22 PM
To add to this: iirc, CA made some statement to her brother, that for inmate Anthony to be pregnant she would have had to have sex. AND inmate anthony told CA she hadn't had sex ........:waitasec: :liar::liar::liar:

I never believed that one either from CA. Both CA and Inmate anthony knew full well about the pregnancy long before the wedding invitation and both went knowing full well there would be talk about it. CA in her standard self-proclaimed "don't question me" attitude plainly continued to do her bully routine :argue: she had done in the past with her family.

No one was fooled or surprised by her. :shakehead: Neither am I.

logicalgirl
05-05-2010, 01:53 AM
Ha I couldn't agree more with that last statement, BBM. I see what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, though seems like it would have been easier to come up with an excuse as to why KC couldn't attend. Maybe she wanted the attention?

Well I think Casey was doing a whole lot of - How do you like your puritan perfect little family thingy now - kind of dig to her mother.

Casey's way of sweetly giving her the finger in front of her family because she was sure Cindy would be embarrassed. Casey's idea of fun.

logicalgirl
05-05-2010, 01:54 AM
(Respectfuly)Nah. KC went to the wedding to get her Narcissistic Supply (attention). Narcissistic KC requires constant narcissistic supply similar to how you and I require oxygen. She believes her life is a movie and everyone should watch. She is constantly on display and sucking up narcissistic supply from her audience. She received gratification from everyone gossiping/staring at her at this event. She was happy about being scandalous and notorious. Her gossiping family was her “narcissistic oxygen” for the day.

Cindy, another narcissist IMPO, clearly operates only from her False Self. She rarely or never takes off her False Self mask which is required for her to escape from her pathological circumstances (sociopathic daughter, wimpy husband, imperfect life...etc...) During this wedding, CA’s False Self allowed her to feel immune and superior to her family's judgement and gossiping.

How CA's False Self thinks: "I am so perfect. My family will not believe my unmarried daughter is prego."

Didn't I just say all of that? LOL:waitasec:

OKaraMia
05-05-2010, 05:33 PM
Is it possible for Caylee to have a guardian ad litem appointed, even now, to represent her through the trail phase?

There has been no one from her family to request the head of KC. No one...not even uncles, aunts, grandparents...no one for Caylee...no family.

A little girl spoiled and pampered since birth by her family, yet in her death she is only a collectors item to strangers.

The Anthony's are a supportive family of an accused murderer. Not the family of a murdered baby.

Im sick of seeing their faces pleading for sympathy over Caylee...when in reality all their focus is the freedom of the killer. (read: manipulation and lies to obstruct the investigation and conviction)

Caylee deserves better...she deserves a Guardian ad Litem


http://www.guardianadlitem.org/

Pardon me if this is in the wrong thread :)

annmarie62
05-06-2010, 12:42 AM
[QUOTE=OKaraMia;5150457]Is it possible for Caylee to have a guardian ad litem appointed, even now, to represent her through the trail phase?

There has been no one from her family to request the head of KC. No one...not even uncles, aunts, grandparents...no one for Caylee...no family.

A little girl spoiled and pampered since birth by her family, yet in her death she is only a collectors item to strangers.

The Anthony's are a supportive family of an accused murderer. Not the family of a murdered baby.

Im sick of seeing their faces pleading for sympathy over Caylee...when in reality all their focus is the freedom of the killer. (read: manipulation and lies to obstruct the investigation and conviction)


I understand what you mean, although I am certain that a guardian ad litem is only for the living *sigh*... I DO think that, if anyone, Cindy's brother Rick Pleasea, at least had the decency to call Cindy on her BS. The transcript of his interview with LE (and his scathing e-mails to Cindy) make it clear that he has known this family was a mess for a long time. I know it does not seem like Caylee has a voice now, but I am positive that, once the trial begins, the voices of the state and also of the many who'll be called to testify will become an Greek chorus of love and sympathy for this poor baby.

autumnlover
05-06-2010, 12:54 AM
Is it possible for Caylee to have a guardian ad litem appointed, even now, to represent her through the trail phase?

There has been no one from her family to request the head of KC. No one...not even uncles, aunts, grandparents...no one for Caylee...no family.

A little girl spoiled and pampered since birth by her family, yet in her death she is only a collectors item to strangers.

The Anthony's are a supportive family of an accused murderer. Not the family of a murdered baby.

Im sick of seeing their faces pleading for sympathy over Caylee...when in reality all their focus is the freedom of the killer. (read: manipulation and lies to obstruct the investigation and conviction)

Caylee deserves better...she deserves a Guardian ad Litem


http://www.guardianadlitem.org/

Pardon me if this is in the wrong thread :)

I think that's a great question and perhaps you should pose it in the thread for our verified lawyers. Like you, I'm sick to death over the fact that Caylee doesn't have one family member in her corner - not one. I guess the State is acting as a guardian ad litem insomuch as they are, in fact, "requesting the head of KC." Everyone else has abandoned Caylee except for strangers - the SA and those of us on WS and elsewhere dedicated to ensuring that she receive justice. How unbelievably tragic.

Woe.be.gone
05-07-2010, 04:14 PM
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200810/did-casey-kill-caylee-forensic-psychologist-comments-the-casei.

While looking for information on psychological defense angles, I ran across the above article. It may have been linked before, but I don't recall ever seeing it posted.

Reagan
05-07-2010, 06:53 PM
Thanks Woe.be.gone but I got a page not found on your link.

ETA: typing Casey Anthony into the search though does seem to provide a plethora of good links to read.

A_News_Junkie
05-07-2010, 07:00 PM
Thanks Woe.be.gone but I got a page not found on your link.

ETA: typing Casey Anthony into the search though does seem to provide a plethora of good links to read.
Try this maybe:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200810/did-casey-kill-caylee-forensic-psychologist-comments-the-case

Reagan
05-07-2010, 07:25 PM
That works, thanks. I assume this has been posted here, but I found it of interest because of KC and CA. I had no idea such a thing existed, but after seeing the likes of this family, the complexity of psychiatry is the only thing that gives me satisfactory answers.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/truth-lies-and-self-deception

Pensfan
05-08-2010, 05:25 PM
In regard to the previously posted article in Psychology Today, foile a deux is a rare psychiatric condition is which the delusion of one individual is shared by another. The Anthony’s do not have a shared psychotic disorder. Cindy and KC may both have narcissistic delusions about their “superiorness”, but they aren’t sharing the same narcissistic delusions. Therefore, this is not an example of foile a deux.

In regard to being delusional about the death of Caylee, Cindy has known KC killed her granddaughter since she smelled death in KC’s car evidenced by her action which obstructed justice and obstructed finding Caylee's body (washing trunk and clothes, firing TES, and continuous lying). Cindy has taken these obstructive actions to preserve her own image because she is a narcissist. KC also clearly knows Caylee is dead so, mom and daughter are not sharing any delusion. This case is not an example of foile a deux.

Gma Kat
05-08-2010, 05:49 PM
I actually don't think anyone was actually trying to hide Casey's pregnancy at all. This was a family gathering, and a daughter being pregnant out of wedlock would be so embarrassing and shameful to Cindy and George's idea of the perfect family they try to present to everyone, I think they chose to make up a story and stick to it, and be oblivious to what a huge lie it was.
Doesn't that sound familiar as the way they always handle things in that family?

I think all that was just to "save face" - making it abundantly clear you love your puritan reputation more than you love your daughter or a truthful existence.

Isn't the birth of a child a blessed event, and the "circumstances" of that conception pretty incidental these days?

bbm: I have always thought this situation was quite odd for the reasons you state. Pride and Vanity are the two traits that would make a family lie about their daughter being pregnant. I would have rather died than come home pregnant to my family...but that was a loooooong time ago and times have changed soooo much that my youngest daughter walked down the isle, in white, 6 months pregnant.....there was no hiding her pregnancy at all! Ohyeah, she was barely legal.....there was no shame, only joy for the coming baby and of course, worry over the difficulty of raising a little one so young...this family tried to save face....but it only made them look ridiculous.

Gma Kat
05-08-2010, 05:55 PM
Before this case I never understood how deep the definition of narcissist goes. This is a family of narcissists. Now I know what my bio dad was. Thanks KC, without you I would have thought he was just an @#$hole....

OneLostGrl
05-09-2010, 11:17 PM
Before this case I never understood how deep the definition of narcissist goes. This is a family of narcissists. Now I know what my bio dad was. Thanks KC, without you I would have thought he was just an @#$hole....



:hug:

Reagan
05-10-2010, 06:03 AM
In regard to the previously posted article in Psychology Today, foile a deux is a rare psychiatric condition is which the delusion of one individual is shared by another. The Anthony’s do not have a shared psychotic disorder. Cindy and KC may both have narcissistic delusions about their “superiorness”, but they aren’t sharing the same narcissistic delusions. Therefore, this is not an example of foile a deux.

In regard to being delusional about the death of Caylee, Cindy has known KC killed her granddaughter since she smelled death in KC’s car evidenced by her action which obstructed justice and obstructed finding Caylee's body (washing trunk and clothes, firing TES, and continuous lying). Cindy has taken these obstructive actions to preserve her own image because she is a narcissist. KC also clearly knows Caylee is dead so, mom and daughter are not sharing any delusion. This case is not an example of foile a deux.
I'm not suggesting they have this disorder. I'm no psychiatrist. I'm just saying after reading it, KC and CA make just a wee bit more sense to me.
Though they may not necessarily "share" their psychosis, they feed off of each other in a psychological way. It would take a lot of examples to convey what I'm trying to say, so I hope you get what I mean?

Basically it's narcissist vs narcissist. They despise each other but are dependent on each other at the same time. Never seen such a thing.

Woe.be.gone
05-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Thanks Woe.be.gone but I got a page not found on your link.

ETA: typing Casey Anthony into the search though does seem to provide a plethora of good links to read.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200810/did-casey-kill-caylee-forensic-psychologist-comments-the-case

I don't know why that happened - me too. When I typed in "Casey Anthony" in the search box, the article listed first is the one I tried to link in post #210.
I've linked it again here - let's see if it works. Thanks for pointing this out.

P.S. I just tested the link above (as I try to remember to always do) and it worked; hope it continues to do so.
Also, I see that 'A News Junkie' added a working link - thank you.

Woe.be.gone
05-10-2010, 01:42 PM
In regard to the previously posted article in Psychology Today, foile a deux is a rare psychiatric condition is which the delusion of one individual is shared by another. The Anthony’s do not have a shared psychotic disorder. Cindy and KC may both have narcissistic delusions about their “superiorness”, but they aren’t sharing the same narcissistic delusions. Therefore, this is not an example of foile a deux.

In regard to being delusional about the death of Caylee, Cindy has known KC killed her granddaughter since she smelled death in KC’s car evidenced by her action which obstructed justice and obstructed finding Caylee's body (washing trunk and clothes, firing TES, and continuous lying). Cindy has taken these obstructive actions to preserve her own image because she is a narcissist. KC also clearly knows Caylee is dead so, mom and daughter are not sharing any delusion. This case is not an example of foile a deux.

It would be fair to say the case is an example of 'fool a deux'. :twocents:

Woe.be.gone
05-10-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm not suggesting they have this disorder. I'm no psychiatrist. I'm just saying after reading it, KC and CA make just a wee bit more sense to me.
Though they may not necessarily "share" their psychosis, they feed off of each other in a psychological way. It would take a lot of examples to convey what I'm trying to say, so I hope you get what I mean?

Basically it's narcissist vs narcissist. They despise each other but are dependent on each other at the same time. Never seen such a thing.

Personality Disorders - rigid, inflexible, maladaptive behavior patterns

NPD - Extreme Self-importance, need for admiration, inability to empathize, highly sensitive to criticism, tend to be perfectionists, need to control the situation,
create crisis to focus attention back on him/her.

Reacts to criticism with ANGER, takes advantage of others, exaggerates their achievements and talents, fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or romance. Expects FAVORABLE treatment, no empathy for others.

Feel they are the 'star' of the office/wherever. Big EGO.
If criticized, feel everyone is against them and they are being 'set up'. NPD is a "no fault" disease.

Rage, revenge, anger and power struggles are common responses to any perceived criticism.

Like ANTISOCIAL Disorder, the person has ENTITLEMENT issues at the forefront of their thoughts and feel that the world owes him/her.

IMO GA fits some of the above traits as well.

OneLostGrl
05-10-2010, 05:08 PM
I'm not suggesting they have this disorder. I'm no psychiatrist. I'm just saying after reading it, KC and CA make just a wee bit more sense to me.
Though they may not necessarily "share" their psychosis, they feed off of each other in a psychological way. It would take a lot of examples to convey what I'm trying to say, so I hope you get what I mean?

Basically it's narcissist vs narcissist. They despise each other but are dependent on each other at the same time. Never seen such a thing.

IMO you have 'em pegged. They share a thought process and learned behaviors.. sadly Caylee probably would have shared it too had she lived.

OneLostGrl
05-10-2010, 05:22 PM
Personality Disorders - rigid, inflexible, maladaptive behavior patterns

NPD - Extreme Self-importance, need for admiration, inability to empathize, highly sensitive to criticism, tend to be perfectionists, need to control the situation,
create crisis to focus attention back on him/her.

Reacts to criticism with ANGER, takes advantage of others, exaggerates their achievements and talents, fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or romance. Expects FAVORABLE treatment, no empathy for others.

Feel they are the 'star' of the office/wherever. Big EGO.
If criticized, feel everyone is against them and they are being 'set up'. NPD is a "no fault" disease.

Rage, revenge, anger and power struggles are common responses to any perceived criticism.

Like ANTISOCIAL Disorder, the person has ENTITLEMENT issues at the forefront of their thoughts and feel that the world owes him/her.

IMO GA fits some of the above traits as well.

No doubt, Woe.

Being raised by a person with a personality disorder can also give a person "symptoms" of a disorder... it's all you know. You are taught your whole life to lie and cheat and hide and sneak and attack others and deny deny deny. It's difficult to change but if the person gets help they can unlearn the behaviors. Often people think they or someone they know have a disorder because they have some traits but just living in it can give you 'em too.

George reminds me of my step father in some ways (DX'd ASPD).. the not working and stealing money, porn, using suicide as a weapon, the child-like way he speaks (pretending to be dumb?), unable to lie.. but not in all ways. Personality disorders are so tough because so many of the symptoms are shared between several disorders. But one thing is for sure.. a Cindy needs a George and a George needs a Cindy.

Paintr
05-10-2010, 05:34 PM
I am simply astounded that the senior Anthonys are still showing up for the hearings and that KC is still mouthing I love yous and happy Mother's Days at the woman she called a foul name in her jailhouse letters.

The Anthonys had their lawyer state that the abuse accusations made by KC against her father and brother are untrue. So they are stating that KC lies in her attacks against her family.

She has stolen from every close member of her family.

KC stands accused of killing their only grandchild with published evidence to, at the very least, partially support these charges.

Just what does KC have to do before the Anthonys start supporting justice for Caylee? Is there a mental condition that explains why CA & GA support KC no matter what? I just don't understand this way of thinking. :waitasec:

OKaraMia
05-10-2010, 06:03 PM
KC telling her Mom..."Happy Mothers Day"

KC did this because she is a "spiteful b!tch".

It was NOT a loving jesture. It was a verbal card to accompany the gift found down the road.

IMO :)

Woe.be.gone
05-10-2010, 08:28 PM
I am simply astounded that the senior Anthonys are still showing up for the hearings and that KC is still mouthing I love yous and happy Mother's Days at the woman she called a foul name in her jailhouse letters.

The Anthonys had their lawyer state that the abuse accusations made by KC against her father and brother are untrue. So they are stating that KC lies in her attacks against her family.

She has stolen from every close member of her family.

KC stands accused of killing their only grandchild with published evidence to, at the very least, partially support these charges.

Just what does KC have to do before the Anthonys start supporting justice for Caylee? Is there a mental condition that explains why CA & GA support KC no matter what? I just don't understand this way of thinking. :waitasec:

My cousin had cancer on his leg. The Doc wanted to amputate - horrible I know but it may have saved his life. At his funeral my Aunt said to me, "he was in denial". I was taken aback by her comment because I never would blame him for having cancer. Apparently, he chose not to believe his Doctors to the extent that he kept wishing away his cancer but it didn't go away - it was what it was and he could have removed it and possibly lived but would have had to adjust to his new circumstances.

The Anthony's have a hand with five fingers. One finger was knocked off but they just look at it and can't believe it's missing. The other finger has cancer but they refuse to remove it; they'd rather die first I guess. I don't understand it either.

Woe.be.gone
05-10-2010, 09:53 PM
IMO you have 'em pegged. They share a thought process and learned behaviors.. sadly Caylee probably would have shared it too had she lived.

I hesitated to thank you for this post because it's hard to accept and people probably don't want to entertain this idea. Then it dawned on me as to why this statement bothers me so and why I'm striving to understand what makes a person like KC tic. She was once just a little Caylee herself.

To me, anybody who sets out to kill anybody of their own free will is not of sound mind - not insane but something is wrong with them imo. Every day it happens - horrible crimes against children yet, for some reason, KC has become the poster woman for people who harm their children. This factor is intriguing in and of itself. What makes her alleged crime worse than all of the others that are committed every day?

Answer: KC's family, their responses and behavior surrounding the disappearance and death of Caylee. That's why I want to be extra sure that none of them had anything to do with Caylee's demise. Too weird imo.

OneLostGrl
05-10-2010, 11:27 PM
I hesitated to thank you for this post because it's hard to accept and people probably don't want to entertain this idea. Then it dawned on me as to why this statement bothers me so and why I'm striving to understand what makes a person like KC tic. She was once just a little Caylee herself.

To me, anybody who sets out to kill anybody of their own free will is not of sound mind - not insane but something is wrong with them imo. Every day it happens - horrible crimes against children yet, for some reason, KC has become the poster woman for people who harm their children. This factor is intriguing in and of itself. What makes her alleged crime worse than all of the others that are committed every day?

Answer: KC's family, their responses and behavior surrounding the disappearance and death of Caylee. That's why I want to be extra sure that none of them had anything to do with Caylee's demise. Too weird imo.

I'm so with you on this as I think you already know. IMO Cindy is far "sicker" than Casey.

Paintr
05-10-2010, 11:51 PM
My cousin had cancer on his leg. The Doc wanted to amputate - horrible I know but it may have saved his life. At his funeral my Aunt said to me, "he was in denial". I was taken aback by her comment because I never would blame him for having cancer. Apparently, he chose not to believe his Doctors to the extent that he kept wishing away his cancer but it didn't go away - it was what it was and he could have removed it and possibly lived but would have had to adjust to his new circumstances.

The Anthony's have a hand with five fingers. One finger was knocked off but they just look at it and can't believe it's missing. The other finger has cancer but they refuse to remove it; they'd rather die first I guess. I don't understand it either.

Thank you kindly for trying to explain it to me and I am sorry for the loss of your cousin.

I have read this thread since the begining and I do try to understand all the disorders that it has been suggested the Anthonys have. But still these people baffle me.

I didn't understand them when they screamed and raged and twisted facts and laid blame.I don't understand them now that they are silent. I have never expected them to denounce KC publicaly or yell 'Off with her head.' But I also didn't expect them to abandon a granddaughter they claimed to love dearly.

Out of all the things in this case, G & C confused me totally. And still do!

Pensfan
05-11-2010, 12:05 AM
Thank you kindly for trying to explain it to me and I am sorry for the loss of your cousin.

I have read this thread since the begining and I do try to understand all the disorders that it has been suggested the Anthonys have. But still these people baffle me.

I didn't understand them when they screamed and raged and twisted facts and laid blame.I don't understand them now that they are silent. I have never expected them to denounce KC publically or yell 'Off with her head.' But I also didn't expect them to abandon a granddaughter they claimed to love dearly.

Out of all the things in this case, G & C confused me totally. And still do!
I don’t think the Anthony family is in denial. Cindy is the manipulative captain of the SS Anthony and she is also a narcissist. She MUST support KC because KC is a reflection of herself and she must appear perfect. She will never be able to state that KC is guilty. This is not because she doesn't believe it, but because having a killer in her family will make her appear imperfect.

Lee and George may have wanted to support Caylee, but they would have to fight Cindy to do this and she is too sceeeeery.

Pensfan
05-11-2010, 12:08 AM
KC telling her Mom..."Happy Mothers Day"

KC did this because she is a "spiteful b!tch".

It was NOT a loving jesture. It was a verbal card to accompany the gift found down the road.

IMO :)
^and a lovely quote for the media to repeat (probably prompted by her defense team).

Paintr
05-11-2010, 12:15 AM
I don’t think the Anthony family is in denial. Cindy is the manipulative captain of the SS Anthony and she is also a narcissist. She MUST support KC because KC is a reflection of herself and she must appear perfect. She will never be able to state that KC is guilty. This is not because she doesn't believe it, but because having a killer in her family will make her appear imperfect.

Lee and George may have wanted to support Caylee, but they would have to fight Cindy to do this and she is too sceeeeery.

I have never believed that the Anthony family were in denial. I guess that is one of the things I have such a problem with. How could they go from loving Caylee to disregarding her in a matter of hours and never seem to reconsider that action. :waitasec:

Beatrice
05-11-2010, 01:42 AM
Think about it...Colonial High School

Where Casey was happiest
Where she lost her virginity

Where she became pregnant?

"The Zone" where she felt safe

OKaraMia
05-11-2010, 06:19 AM
^and a lovely quote for the media to repeat (probably prompted by her defense team).

Cindy has waited like a puppy in a pound, for a crumb from KC.
But KC waits never mouths I love you, or any loving thing.
KC to choose to say happy mothers day...to me...seemed sarcastic.

In my own crazy family, if one were to mmm....get a traffic ticket on their birthday, we might say..."Pfft, Happy Birthday"....and then the birthday person would be like..."yeah, right?".


As far as Im concerned...KC was slapping Cindy in the face. An even deeper feeling is that KC was blaming her, or letting Cindy know it was because of her.


JMO of course

Cayleefan
05-11-2010, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Pensfan...
I don’t think the Anthony family is in denial. Cindy is the manipulative captain of the SS Anthony and she is also a narcissist. She MUST support KC because KC is a reflection of herself and she must appear perfect. She will never be able to state that KC is guilty. This is not because she doesn't believe it, but because having a killer in her family will make her appear imperfect.

Lee and George may have wanted to support Caylee, but they would have to fight Cindy to do this and she is too sceeeeery.

Exactly my thoughts. I couldn't agree with you more.

Woe.be.gone
05-11-2010, 01:18 PM
I have never believed that the Anthony family were in denial. I guess that is one of the things I have such a problem with. How could they go from loving Caylee to disregarding her in a matter of hours and never seem to reconsider that action. :waitasec:

Nor do I believe the A's are in denial. Even though I use the example that my cousin did not choose to attack his cancer aggressively and my Aunt claims that he was in denial regarding the severity of the cancer (it's too painful for her to face his choice), I believe he was more afraid of loosing his leg and adjusting to life in a new way than he was of dying. It's difficult to understand his choice.

The Anthony's are cooperating with their 'cancer' imo. For some reason, they will not fight it aggressively; either out of fear or they have a hand in why the circumstances are what they are. They may not want their world to change but it already has changed no matter what they want. Fear is stopping them from dealing with/telling the truth imo. Fear of what though? Could it be their fear of living with what the consequences to either of them will be after they tell the truth?

Why did CA about-face when we first heard the words 'pizza box in the trunk'?

gngr~snap
05-11-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm so with you on this as I think you already know. IMO Cindy is far "sicker" than Casey.

:snake: just sick enough to think no one can see through her!
oooooo! I can not wait!

but enough about that unpopular opinion!

Woe.be.gone
05-11-2010, 01:36 PM
Lee left the roost a few years prior to Caylee's death. I'm not sure he was that involved in KC's day-to-day life since she became a mom. I love my brother but a lot goes on in each of our daily lives that the other is not aware of - in my case, nothing too interesting. Bro flies here and flies there due to his work, goes to various places with various people all the time. We are grown. God forbid, if something bad happened to either one of us, we would not have first hand knowledge or anything to do with it. I've never quite understood why Lee has been considered to be integral to what happened to Caylee. :waitasec: Anyway,

GA and CA, neither of them are beyond speculation imo. George is a separate entity from CA. If he doesn't know that, shame on him. I don't give him any passes because of who CA is, what CA does or says. He has free will and is as full of it as she is. I guess they complete each other. :sick:

ButForFortune
05-11-2010, 01:48 PM
I agree with what others have stated here - KC's first acknowledgement of CA in months is mouthing Happy Mother's Day to CA??!! Really? Happy Mother's Day? She knows CA cannot possibly be happy - Caylee's gone and her daughter is in jail with the threat of the death penalty hanging over her. Either it was an intentionally sarcastic gesture concealed in a loving statement or it further proves her lack of empathy and grasp of reality.

(For some reason it reminds me of her jailhouse letters where she states she wants to adopt - no grasp of reality whatsoever.)

TallyHo
05-11-2010, 05:24 PM
I agree with what others have stated here - KC's first acknowledgement of CA in months is mouthing Happy Mother's Day to CA??!! Really? Happy Mother's Day? She knows CA cannot possibly be happy - Caylee's gone and her daughter is in jail with the threat of the death penalty hanging over her. Either it was an intentionally sarcastic gesture concealed in a loving statement or it further proves her lack of empathy and grasp of reality.

(For some reason it reminds me of her jailhouse letters where she states she wants to adopt - no grasp of reality whatsoever.)

Did you all notice how Baez had to tell her something right before she acknowledged G/C - that was not the first time it has looked as if he had to tell her to make a public display of affection. That's why it doesn't surprise me that she said what she said. I think he told her she had to look at them and say something, so she did in a way that would get her dig in. It didn't look like she really made eye contact with them either, or if she did it was VERY brief.

Pensfan
05-11-2010, 05:42 PM
Why did CA about-face when we first heard the words 'pizza box in the trunk'?
Respectfully snipped.
I believe when she first smelled “death” in the car, she freaked. It was frightening to smell the sweet, sickening smell and I believe it is instinctual (just like it is in other animals) to know that it is the smell of death. She freaked again when she undoubtedly realized that it was the smell of her precious granddaughter’s rotting body. She dialed 911 without considering the implications to her “perfect” image. Cindy had to back peddle after her impulsive 911 call because she is a narcissist and image is everything.

Woe.be.gone
05-12-2010, 02:28 PM
Did you all notice how Baez had to tell her something right before she acknowledged G/C - that was not the first time it has looked as if he had to tell her to make a public display of affection. That's why it doesn't surprise me that she said what she said. I think he told her she had to look at them and say something, so she did in a way that would get her dig in. It didn't look like she really made eye contact with them either, or if she did it was VERY brief.

If I'm not mistaken, GA was not present during yesterday's DP hearing.
Neither GA nor CA were present at the hearing that dealt with financial concerns. BC, their Lawyer, stated it hadn't been necessary for them to be there and that there was no specific reason.

I'm curious why GA didn't attend the DP hearing. :waitasec:
Also I'm curious about why he pretended he was suicidal when his innocent until proven guilty daughter needed him most.

One trait of a Narcissist is to create crisis in order to turn attention back toward theirself. GA doesn't seem trustworthy imo.

Mrs G Norris
05-31-2010, 11:48 PM
Found a great online documentary on psychopathy which I believe explains Casey's psychology.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/psychopath/

And am starting to think as I look into the subject that there must have been signs from Casey's early childhood that she had 'issues'. So could the people around her - her parents, the school, really have been so blind, so fearful, that they did nothing?

What info do we have about her life before she had Caylee that she was heading in a bad direction? And if so what could anyone have done.

LiveLaughLuv
06-01-2010, 06:11 AM
What info do we have about her life before she had Caylee that she was heading in a bad direction? And if so what could anyone have done.

One has to first admit there is a problem in order to do something about it, IMO..

I had a daughter who wanted to do what she wanted to do. From the age of12, I was beside myself, going to therapy trying to find out what was wrong. She thought she was grown and wanted to do what she wanted to do. She wouldn't go to school so I marched myself down to family court and initiated a PINS (Persons in need of supervision) warrant, which worked great for ME until she reached 16...anyway I did try my best, I have no guilt feelings I let my daughter down. She's now 33, married and living in Virginia..I did my best..at least I admited that there was a problem and tried to get a handle on it..

CA could have done the same. Problem is, in her perfect family, there are NO problems...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

JMHO

Aedrys
06-01-2010, 04:53 PM
Lee left the roost a few years prior to Caylee's death. I'm not sure he was that involved in KC's day-to-day life since she became a mom. I love my brother but a lot goes on in each of our daily lives that the other is not aware of - in my case, nothing too interesting. Bro flies here and flies there due to his work, goes to various places with various people all the time. We are grown. God forbid, if something bad happened to either one of us, we would not have first hand knowledge or anything to do with it. I've never quite understood why Lee has been considered to be integral to what happened to Caylee. :waitasec: Anyway,

GA and CA, neither of them are beyond speculation imo. George is a separate entity from CA. If he doesn't know that, shame on him. I don't give him any passes because of who CA is, what CA does or says. He has free will and is as full of it as she is. I guess they complete each other. :sick:

About Lee, he may not be directly involved, but he KNOWS what was going on. I talk to my mom and I hear about my brother and sister from her - they live in two different states and are busy with their jobs, so I don't get to talk to them often. But my mom updates me on things going on in their lives, good or bad. I know that's why I hold it against him. He knew how bad things were and didn't try to get Caylee out of that toxic environment or do anything about his sister. If I heard that my brother or sister was endangering the life of their child, you better believe I'd be trying my damndest to get involved and get that child to safety. I may not be in their lives everyday, but I still have a good idea of what is going on with them. Lee knew too, and he chose to ignore all of it and just let his mom handle it. He didn't care enough about Caylee to do anything for her, or maybe report his sister to the police or get her some help. He did NOTHING, and he's still doing NOTHING. He's just as much a coward as George is.

Mrs G Norris
06-01-2010, 07:13 PM
About Lee, he may not be directly involved, but he KNOWS what was going on. I talk to my mom and I hear about my brother and sister from her - they live in two different states and are busy with their jobs, so I don't get to talk to them often. But my mom updates me on things going on in their lives, good or bad. I know that's why I hold it against him. He knew how bad things were and didn't try to get Caylee out of that toxic environment or do anything about his sister. If I heard that my brother or sister was endangering the life of their child, you better believe I'd be trying my damndest to get involved and get that child to safety. I may not be in their lives everyday, but I still have a good idea of what is going on with them. Lee knew too, and he chose to ignore all of it and just let his mom handle it. He didn't care enough about Caylee to do anything for her, or maybe report his sister to the police or get her some help. He did NOTHING, and he's still doing NOTHING. He's just as much a coward as George is.

ITA. It doesn't take a genius to know that stealing and pathological lying is a BIG RED FLAG that something horrible is going on behind the scenes. Casey didn't even try too hard to hide it. Casey's still laughing at her mother even now. And I'm sure that in Casey's mind at least the game goes on.

hannahsnana
06-01-2010, 09:17 PM
If I'm not mistaken, GA was not present during yesterday's DP hearing.
Neither GA nor CA were present at the hearing that dealt with financial concerns. BC, their Lawyer, stated it hadn't been necessary for them to be there and that there was no specific reason.

I'm curious why GA didn't attend the DP hearing. :waitasec:
Also I'm curious about why he pretended he was suicidal when his innocent until proven guilty daughter needed him most.

One trait of a Narcissist is to create crisis in order to turn attention back toward theirself. GA doesn't seem trustworthy imo.

I have actually been wondering for a while now if George is still living with Cindy. I noticed a definite drop in temperature between them about the time it was alleged he had had an affair. Or maybe they're living together as 'roommates'. I think even the last time they were both at a hearing, they arrived and left separately. Not trying to start a rumor, just wondering.......

ynotdivein
06-20-2010, 09:58 PM
Bumping because some posts on other threads have me responding dangerously close to the OT line.

Also because... well, because we might not "solve" anything here. But I know I'm not the only WSer who thinks/wishes/wonders: "What was the psychological key that turned on this whole engine? And what keeps it churning? And what, if anything, could have stopped it?"

Need to read back in this thread still, but I am wondering how Lee fits into this of late. And wondering what you all think of things psychologically Anthony of late?

countzero
06-20-2010, 10:49 PM
I have written this time and again.

If you have never been exposed to people or relatives the likes of the A clan, you cannot comprehend the damage they inflict upon ones mental and physical life.

So for me, it isn't difficult to understand them. I see and recognize their behaviors. The lies, the drama all of it.

They will never publicly acknowledge their faults, for in their lives they have none. They have no moral compass to guide them in societies acceptable behaviors. They are all narcisstic and are passive/aggressive within their unit.

They all know what they have done and their only concern is self preservation and be danged with everyone else. They adapt with their surroundings and current situations. They are always thinking they are smarter than the people they deal with and are always looking for a point where they can manipulate to their advantage. They will use any and all underhanded tactics to deflect their responsibility and wear down their opponents until their goals are met.

They trust no one, and I mean no one but themselves. They have little if any friends but can have many acquaintances until those see them for who they truly are. They skirt the laws of the land; for them these laws do not apply.

For those who come into contact with these personalities, it can either drain the will from you, or make you stronger.

From personal experiences I draw these conclusions. And I chose to cut the blood line from my life if I was to go on living a normal and productive life.

wenwe4
06-21-2010, 02:16 PM
Found a great online documentary on psychopathy which I believe explains Casey's psychology.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/psychopath/

And am starting to think as I look into the subject that there must have been signs from Casey's early childhood that she had 'issues'. So could the people around her - her parents, the school, really have been so blind, so fearful, that they did nothing?

What info do we have about her life before she had Caylee that she was heading in a bad direction? And if so what could anyone have done.

TY Mrs. GN - what an informative and interesting video. I did some more sleuthing on Dr. Hare's psychopathy checklist. Of course this is to be used in conjuction with a semi-structured interview done with a qualified clinician. I have found a link with the checklist and scoring references. By no means do I wish to devalue this tool's worth in the clinical setting. I think this tool helps explain to us what we actually have been witnessing as we follow this case.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html

snipped for space by me


"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

•glib and superficial charm
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
•need for stimulation
•pathological lying
•cunning and manipulativeness
•lack of remorse or guilt
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
•callousness and lack of empathy
•parasitic lifestyle
•poor behavioral controls
•sexual promiscuity
•early behavior problems
•lack of realistic long-term goals
•impulsivity
•irresponsibility
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions
•many short-term marital relationships
•juvenile delinquency
•revocation of conditional release
•criminal versatility



When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22. "

Knot4u2no
06-21-2010, 03:43 PM
TY Mrs. GN - what an informative and interesting video. I did some more sleuthing on Dr. Hare's psychopathy checklist. Of course this is to be used in conjuction with a semi-structured interview done with a qualified clinician. I have found a link with the checklist and scoring references. By no means do I wish to devalue this tool's worth in the clinical setting. I think this tool helps explain to us what we actually have been witnessing as we follow this case.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html

snipped for space by me


"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

•glib and superficial charm
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
•need for stimulation
•pathological lying
•cunning and manipulativeness
•lack of remorse or guilt
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
•callousness and lack of empathy
•parasitic lifestyle
•poor behavioral controls
•sexual promiscuity
•early behavior problems
•lack of realistic long-term goals
•impulsivity
•irresponsibility
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions
•many short-term marital relationships
•juvenile delinquency
•revocation of conditional release
•criminal versatility



When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22. "

For a BRACE Character Profile analysis and related discussion of a prototypical 40-point Hare PCL-R psychopath, see the following:

http://www.braceanalysis.com/downloads/BRACE_of_40_pt_Hare_PCL%20R.pdf


Russell

faefrost
06-21-2010, 03:43 PM
TY Mrs. GN - what an informative and interesting video. I did some more sleuthing on Dr. Hare's psychopathy checklist. Of course this is to be used in conjuction with a semi-structured interview done with a qualified clinician. I have found a link with the checklist and scoring references. By no means do I wish to devalue this tool's worth in the clinical setting. I think this tool helps explain to us what we actually have been witnessing as we follow this case.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html

snipped for space by me


"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

•glib and superficial charm
•grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
•need for stimulation
•pathological lying
•cunning and manipulativeness
•lack of remorse or guilt
•shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
•callousness and lack of empathy
•parasitic lifestyle
•poor behavioral controls
•sexual promiscuity
•early behavior problems
•lack of realistic long-term goals
•impulsivity
•irresponsibility
•failure to accept responsibility for own actions
•many short-term marital relationships
•juvenile delinquency
•revocation of conditional release
•criminal versatility



When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22. "

Great and informative post!

Somewhat OT, but interesting to note that this seems to perfectly match both KC and our other favorite in the news Joran Van Der Sloot.

Leila
06-21-2010, 05:40 PM
I have a question to put to all here. What keeps this train from derailing?

After the events of July 15, 2008, the Anthony family was thrust into the national media spotlight. We all saw the family's behavior unfold in a very unflattering way. George and Cindy gave their first interview, with local media, on Friday, July 18th and in quick succession were interviewed by Geraldo, Greta Van Susteran, and Nancy Grace, thus gaining national exposure.

For many people, they were drawn to this story by the behavior of George and Cindy. Casey was in jail and not talking, so she was for the moment, not the focus of the media's attention. It was George and Cindy telling reporters to "get off their butts and find my granddaughter" and waving a hammer at the reporters in a threatening manner, insisting that the odor in Casey's car was rotten pizza, or confronting protesters in front of their house with a baseball bat that kept the media's focus.

We know that George and/or Cindy were reading here at Websleuths because printouts of WS posts were found in their trash. It's reasonable to assume they've read other forums, and the comment section of their own local newspaper's online edition.

The public opinion of the Anthony family, universally, is very very negative. I'm sure that George, Cindy, and Lee (Casey is out of the loop as she doesn't have computer or media access) are very much aware of their negative image in the public eye. Lee has dropped off the radar as he's no longer making public comment.

Not a great example, but each one of us here knows that if we're with a group of people and the discussion turns to politics, and we say something that's not well received because most of the group are politically firmly aligned with the opposite party, you don't keep expounding on the remark that wasn't well received......it's not going to convince anyone to change, and you might be making some enemies with your political point of view.

George and Cindy continue to forge ahead with media appearances despite the fact that in doing so, they're incurring public anger with their comments and behavior.

I'm aware that what we're seeing with the Anthony family members is consistent with classic behavior of narcissistic personality disorder, and very likely sociopathic personality disorder. But, even so, I would think that George and Cindy would be aware of the public's perception and change their tactics in an effort to gain sympathy and support.

So, I'm wondering why George and Cindy continue down this track and why the train hasn't derailed yet?