Canada-**FOUND** Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #28

[imamaze]

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[pjgrrrl]

Why did my post get deleted? What did I do wrong exactly?

[Animal04216]

Why did my post get deleted? What did I do wrong exactly?


do you have a link to these 'facts" if not they are rumors so I deleted them.

[pjgrrrl]

I worked alongside the LE. I apologize if I went against the rules.

Thanks for the heads up.

Regards

[nonfictionrocks]

I worked alongside the LE. I apologize if I went against the rules.

Thanks for the heads up.

Regards

Hey pjgrrrl, don't let having your post deleted discourage you from posting your thoughts on this thread. Some of us never know where the line is until we actually cross it! LOL

[dilbert]

I worked alongside the LE. I apologize if I went against the rules.

Thanks for the heads up.

Regards

i'm just curious, and if you can't say, i'll understand, under what capacity did you work along side LE?

thanks.

[pjgrrrl]

i'm just curious, and if you can't say, i'll understand, under what capacity did you work along side LE?

thanks.
Civilian informant.

Wish I could say more even though it's fact- I clearly do not have a link to said facts- LOL!

[matou]

Civilian informant.

Wish I could say more even though it's fact- I clearly do not have a link to said facts- LOL!

Are you able to disclose who it is you know know in the case and who you provided information about? Is it the victim, her family, Rafferty or McClintic? If it is none of these, are you a witness to an area that was visited by either of the suspects at or around the time of the crime, or in the case of Rafferty, in the 5 weeks after the crime? TIA

[maxfactor]

It's awfully quiet in here.

[nobodyzgirl]

It's awfully quiet in here.

It sure is, I suspect it's because there isn't really all that much to discuss at this point. MR has a court appearance next week, I believe on the 13th, and TLM's next scheduled appearance, I believe, is the end of the month.

[nonfictionrocks]

It sure is, I suspect it's because there isn't really all that much to discuss at this point. MR has a court appearance next week, I believe on the 13th, and TLM's next scheduled appearance, I believe, is the end of the month.

I am curious to see if they move MTR back to London now that the Bandido gang has moved on to their new "homes".

[antiquegirl]

I am curious to see if they move MTR back to London now that the Bandido gang has moved on to their new "homes".

Somehow I doubt he'll be moved again. I'm sure it involves plenty of red tape and paperwork, which they will try to avoid.

I read a bit in the media this week that made me think of this move. Sirhan Sirhan, the man who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy, is opposing a move to a different prison facility, citing a danger to his safety. His lawyers are working on it.

http://news.aol.com/article/robert-f-kennedys-killer-sirhan-sirhan/748542

"He can indicate if he feels unsafe at any point and the department will respond appropriately."

So, it seems that even a convicted criminal as high profile as one who murdered a U.S. Senator has some rights about where he is housed. It shouldn't be so shocking that a yet-to-be-tried person accused of a crime should have the same right. We are not a third-world country.

JMO

[nobodyzgirl]

I am curious to see if they move MTR back to London now that the Bandido gang has moved on to their new "homes".

I'm curious to see if they transfer one of the Bandidos to Chatham. I suspect they will be separating them into different "homes".

[nonfictionrocks]

I'm curious to see if they transfer one of the Bandidos to Chatham. I suspect they will be separating them into different "homes".

Is the Chatham prison a long term facility - I figured that they would send the Ontario convicts to Kingston but I am not sure. I heard that one is going to New Brunswick and others are heading back to Manitoba.

Another thing I am curious about especially in these economic times. How does our legal system support a "protected witness" when he probably could not get a legitimate job in the best of times. How would he be paying his rent and other bills? Instead of living off the proceeds of crime is he and his family now fully supported financially by taxpayers? We will be paying while he academically upgrades himself in order to be able to compete with others looking for employment? What about his criminal record, it is increasingly difficult to get any job with a police record? Clearly we have serious problems with our social assistance programs and having the likes of this guy getting this support is just mind boggling! I know this is Tori's forum but one day both the accused will be out and at least one of them (if not both) will get some assistance thanks to our tax dollars!

[puppyraiser]

It is very doubtful that Chatham will be the new home to any of the Bandidos. Kingston may end up home to one or more.

[nobodyzgirl]

It is very doubtful that Chatham will be the new home to any of the Bandidos. Kingston may end up home to one or more.

I was having an "old age" moment! LOL. You are correct, Chatham would never work, which is why MR was likely sent there (MOO), especially if it is in fact true that the Bandidos were giving him a hard time. Kingston for sure will be one of them. I suspect Millhaven will be another, it's listed as maximum security. I guess because it was federal court, they could technically get sent anywhere in Canada, so that would make sense NFR that one would go to NB and I could see the Manitoba guys going back. Also, I'm doing some research regarding your question for protected witnesses. If I find something useful, I'll post it.

[jaycee]

It is very doubtful that Chatham will be the new home to any of the Bandidos. Kingston may end up home to one or more.Nice. At least they won't have a long ride to prison.

[maxfactor]

I'm sure they will be shipped off to Millhaven, here in Kingston, very quickly after sentencing. Even the ones going out of province may have to go there first.

[maxfactor]

Is the Chatham prison a long term facility - I figured that they would send the Ontario convicts to Kingston but I am not sure. I heard that one is going to New Brunswick and others are heading back to Manitoba.

Another thing I am curious about especially in these economic times. How does our legal system support a "protected witness" when he probably could not get a legitimate job in the best of times. How would he be paying his rent and other bills? Instead of living off the proceeds of crime is he and his family now fully supported financially by taxpayers? We will be paying while he academically upgrades himself in order to be able to compete with others looking for employment? What about his criminal record, it is increasingly difficult to get any job with a police record? Clearly we have serious problems with our social assistance programs and having the likes of this guy getting this support is just mind boggling! I know this is Tori's forum but one day both the accused will be out and at least one of them (if not both) will get some assistance thanks to our tax dollars!

I'm not sure if the laws have changed but not too long ago a lifer could get Canada Pension Disability when he got out, in fact I think anyone incarcerated for 10 years or more can apply. I used to know a guy here who helped them get it when they got out. And as for protected witnesses I remember reading an article about MH getting Ontario Works. I'll have to search for it, pretty sure it was the LFP.

[kaas]

It is going to be a long wait for the trials, and because of the presumed media blackouts we may never know how or why this terrible tragedy took place.
I would like to thank all those who have and are still providing information and opinions in this thread.

[nonfictionrocks]

I'm not sure if the laws have changed but not too long ago a lifer could get Canada Pension Disability when he got out, in fact I think anyone incarcerated for 10 years or more can apply. I used to know a guy here who helped them get it when they got out. And as for protected witnesses I remember reading an article about MH getting Ontario Works. I'll have to search for it, pretty sure it was the LFP.

That's is just unbelievable but I guess without government assistance they would have no choice but turn to crime - Catch 22! Thanks Maxfactor!

[antiquegirl]

It is going to be a long wait for the trials, and because of the presumed media blackouts we may never know how or why this terrible tragedy took place.
I would like to thank all those who have and are still providing information and opinions in this thread.

There will probably be a publication ban in effect, but the media will still be attending the trials. They just won't be allowed to report on the proceedings until after the trials are over. Once there is a verdict, at least some of the ban will be lifted. We should then know the how and why, but the judge may rule against publishing delicate details. I'm pretty sure this is how it works. It will be a long wait.

[dilbert]

i don't think there is a "media black out," per se, i think we're not hearing anything right now because the only court appearances are remands or the judicial pretrial meetings, which are never publicized anyway.

i do not think there will be a publication ban, just my opinion.

also, unless other court orders have been insued to limit access, the court docs are available to be viewed or photocopied by anyone, so there's always that avenue if you are really nosey, like me. :crazy:

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/pub_ban.asp

When a publication ban is imposed, the court record is available, subject to any other court orders limiting access, to any member of the public upon request to view and photocopy. It’s important to note that although the court record may be viewed and photocopied, details covered by the publication ban cannot be published, broadcast or transmitted within the meaning of the Criminal Code.

[nurse_sleuth]

Actually I was recently told by someone in LE that there already is a publication ban... and that there are for all child cases like this, in order to protect the victim's privacy and integrity. That is in part why the majority of this case is not known at all by the media. i don't think there is a "media black out," per se, i think we're not hearing anything right now because the only court appearances are remands or the judicial pretrial meetings, which are never publicized anyway.

i do not think there will be a publication ban, just my opinion.

also, unless other court orders have been insued to limit access, the court docs are available to be viewed or photocopied by anyone, so there's always that avenue if you are really nosey, like me. :crazy:

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/pub_ban.asp

[nobodyzgirl]

As there will be two separate trials, I think there will be a ban on at least one of the trials more for protecting the fair trial rights than anything else.

Pre-trial motions about the admissibility of evidence are subject to a statutory publication ban under the Criminal Code.

[antiquegirl]

Actually I was recently told by someone in LE that there already is a publication ban... and that there are for all child cases like this, in order to protect the victim's privacy and integrity. That is in part why the majority of this case is not known at all by the media.

(BBM)

Respectfully, I can't think of any case like this that had a publication ban. Just a few examples of child murder trials here in Canada that had no bans:

Randal Dooley - http://www.vachss.com/help_text/reports/randal_dooley.html

Emmily Lucas - http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/10/29/11562451-sun.html

Holly Jones - http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/jones_holly/

Jeffrey Baldwin - http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/10/01/Baldwincase20051001.html

Karissa Boudreau - http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090130/boudreau_mom_090130/20090130/?hub=TorontoNewHome

If there were already a publication ban on this case, the media would have stated that fact. These bans are considered "unconstitutional" and are usually opposed by the media (citing "freedom of the press"). They are occasionally legally contested by lawyers for certain publications.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:tH7dsO8vHb0J:www.cbc.ca/news/background/publicationbans/+publication+ban+freedom+of+the+press&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

TLM may never have a trial if she pleads guilty. She will still have to disclose all her info about the crime to the Crown, but if there is a trial for MTR, this info will have to be kept under wraps until after that trial. If there are two trials, I don't believe we will hear the details of the first until after the second. Once both trials are over, the bans should be lifted and the media would be free to report on the proceedings. I seriously doubt that the public will be kept in the dark about this crime.

JMO

[nonfictionrocks]

TLM may never have a trial if she pleads guilty. She will still have to disclose all her info about the crime to the Crown, but if there is a second trial for MTR, this info will have to be kept under wraps until after that trial. If there are two trials, I don't believe we will hear the details of the first until after the second. Once both trials are over, the bans should be lifted and the media would be free to report on the proceedings. I seriously doubt that the public will be kept in the dark about this crime.

JMO

If TLM is probably going to plead guilty why has this not been done in court yet. She has had several appearances since her arrest. It seems to me that MTR's court proceedings are moving along at a quicker pace. I understand that by pleady guilty TLM might not have any need for any preliminary meetings so why doesn't she enter her plea and the justice system can get on with hearing her tale and doling out her sentence...unless there is still much more to come in this sega?

[nurse_sleuth]

Try contacting an investigator from the OPP.... the information came from them... one in particular working this case!!!(BBM)

Respectfully, I can't think of any case like this that had a publication ban. Just a few examples of child murder trials here in Canada that had no bans:

Randal Dooley - http://www.vachss.com/help_text/reports/randal_dooley.html

Emmily Lucas - http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/10/29/11562451-sun.html

Holly Jones - http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/jones_holly/

Jeffrey Baldwin - http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/10/01/Baldwincase20051001.html

Karissa Boudreau - http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090130/boudreau_mom_090130/20090130/?hub=TorontoNewHome

If there were already a publication ban on this case, the media would have stated that fact. These bans are considered "unconstitutional" and are usually opposed by the media (citing "freedom of the press"). They are occasionally legally contested by lawyers for certain publications.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:tH7dsO8vHb0J:www.cbc.ca/news/background/publicationbans/+publication+ban+freedom+of+the+press&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

TLM may never have a trial if she pleads guilty. She will still have to disclose all her info about the crime to the Crown, but if there is a second trial for MTR, this info will have to be kept under wraps until after that trial. If there are two trials, I don't believe we will hear the details of the first until after the second. Once both trials are over, the bans should be lifted and the media would be free to report on the proceedings. I seriously doubt that the public will be kept in the dark about this crime.

JMO

[nonfictionrocks]

Try contacting an investigator from the OPP.... the information came from them... one in particular working this case!!!

I am curious to know that if a publication ban is in effect would the media be banned from reporting things such as MTR's move to Chatham? I am not sure if it is all information about any of the accused or victims or just selective portions? Does anyone here know for sure?

[antiquegirl]

Try contacting an investigator from the OPP.... the information came from them... one in particular working this case!!!

I have another idea: Who would know if there was a publication ban on this case better than the media itself? Why don't we all contact various media outlets and ask them directly?

[nobodyzgirl]

I am curious to know that if a publication ban is in effect would the media be banned from reporting things such as MTR's move to Chatham? I am not sure if it is all information about any of the accused or victims or just selective portions? Does anyone here know for sure?

If there is a publication ban, it could just be a partial ban. In the P. Bernardo trial there was a partial ban put in place prohibiting the media and the public from viewing video tapes. So essentially, publication bans can be used for just certain information.

[nonfictionrocks]

Actually I was recently told by someone in LE that there already is a publication ban... and that there are for all child cases like this, in order to protect the victim's privacy and integrity. That is in part why the majority of this case is not known at all by the media.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/09/21/creba-case-set-to-undergo-publication-ban-on-dec-1.aspx

The ruling issued earlier this month is the latest example of courts in Canada imposing publishing restrictions in high-profile cases where there is more than one trial, because of the potential impact on fair trial rights.

This is despite the Supreme Court of Canada’s requirement that publication bans be imposed only if there is actual evidence of prejudice and not mere speculation.

Jury selection in the trial of the seven adult defendants is scheduled to begin in late January, which is why Judge Pardu set the date of Dec. 1 for the ban to take effect.

“Any publication ban restricts freedom of expression to an extent, however in my view the narrowly circumscribed order contemplated gives due weight to the need to preserve an accused’s right to a fair trial and the need to protect freedom of expression,” the judge wrote. Even with the ban, Judge Pardu conceded that her order will not prevent people from looking up past stories online.

In Canada however, pre-trial motions about the admissibility of evidence are subject to a statutory publication ban under the Criminal Code. I am not sure but are preliminary meetings and pre-trial motions two different things?

[nobodyzgirl]

NFR, I'm not entirely sure if you mean preliminary inquiry of what is currently going on with MTR which is a pre-trial conference. There is a difference between the conference and the inquiry. The conference is between Crown, Defence and Judge (if it's a judicial conference). The Inquiry is a court proceeding and the Crown brings the evidence, and the defence is allowed to cross-examine witnesses and the evidence.

I have found an explanation of both pre-trial motions and preliminary inquiry. HTH.

Preliminary Inquiry, Pre-trial Motions
What is a preliminary hearing?
A preliminary hearing is a court proceeding where the Crown prosecutor must present enough evidence in your case to convince a judge that, based on such evidence, a judge could find you guilty. The defence lawyer will have an opportunity to cross-examine witnesses on their evidence and argue to the judge after the Crown attorney has presented evidence, that there is not enough evidence to lead to a possible finding of guilt. If the prosecutor cannot satisfy the judge of that, the case will be dismissed. In most cases the crown satisfies the judge that there is enough evidence for a trial and trial date will be set.

What are pre-trial motions or hearings?
The defence lawyer or Crown prosecutor may bring matters to the court to be decided before commencement of your trial, such as relate to the admissibility of evidence, place of trial, sufficiency of disclosure or the constitutional rights of the accused. Occasionally, a judge may refer a legal question concerning your case be dealt with before the trial will proceed.

http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Canadian-Legal-FAQs/Criminal-Law/Federal/preliminary-inquiry-pre-trial-motions.html

[nurse_sleuth]

I relayed information first hand from the source where a breech in this ban would be enforced. Get the information from where ever you like, I merely stated precisely what I was told when I called to ask LE directly!! I doubt they misinformed me. I have another idea: Who would know if there was a publication ban on this case better than the media itself? Why don't we all contact various media outlets and ask them directly?

[nonfictionrocks]

NFR, I'm not entirely sure if you mean preliminary inquiry of what is currently going on with MTR which is a pre-trial conference. There is a difference between the conference and the inquiry. The conference is between Crown, Defence and Judge (if it's a judicial conference). The Inquiry is a court proceeding and the Crown brings the evidence, and the defence is allowed to cross-examine witnesses and the evidence.

I have found an explanation of both pre-trial motions and preliminary inquiry. HTH.

Preliminary Inquiry, Pre-trial Motions
What is a preliminary hearing?
A preliminary hearing is a court proceeding where the Crown prosecutor must present enough evidence in your case to convince a judge that, based on such evidence, a judge could find you guilty. The defence lawyer will have an opportunity to cross-examine witnesses on their evidence and argue to the judge after the Crown attorney has presented evidence, that there is not enough evidence to lead to a possible finding of guilt. If the prosecutor cannot satisfy the judge of that, the case will be dismissed. In most cases the crown satisfies the judge that there is enough evidence for a trial and trial date will be set.

What are pre-trial motions or hearings?
The defence lawyer or Crown prosecutor may bring matters to the court to be decided before commencement of your trial, such as relate to the admissibility of evidence, place of trial, sufficiency of disclosure or the constitutional rights of the accused. Occasionally, a judge may refer a legal question concerning your case be dealt with before the trial will proceed.

http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Canadian-Legal-FAQs/Criminal-Law/Federal/preliminary-inquiry-pre-trial-motions.html

Thanks NBG but it is still as clear as mud to me.

Did the media name the proceedings incorrectly (by calling them preliminary "meetings") when MTR's lawyers met with the Crown and Judge just prior to his move to Chatham and most recently on October 30th. Are these "meetings" actual inquires or do you believe them to be just that, "meetings" of some kind. Do you think that they might be getting close to actually setting a trial date, although I realize that in these cases it will continuously be remanded due to some excuse or another, since many believe that the whole case is open and shut and LE and the Crown have ALL their ducks in line.

[antiquegirl]

I relayed information first hand from the source where a breech in this ban would be enforced. Get the information from where ever you like, I merely stated precisely what I was told when I called to ask LE directly!! I doubt they misinformed me.

(BBM)

But didn't they also tell you (and I'm quoting you here) "that there are for all child cases like this, in order to protect the victim's privacy and integrity."?

I gave five examples that show this is not true at all. So, at least in this you were misinformed, no?

I'm not doubting that there may be a publication ban imposed shortly before the trials start; only that there already is one. Maybe the officer you spoke with was referring to the ongoing preliminary hearings, which are confidential and never open to the media or public.

MOO

[nobodyzgirl]

Thanks NBG but it is still as clear as mud to me.

Did the media name the proceedings incorrectly (by calling them preliminary "meetings") when MTR's lawyers met with the Crown and Judge just prior to his move to Chatham and most recently on October 30th. Are these "meetings" actual inquires or do you believe them to be just that, "meetings" of some kind. Do you think that they might be getting close to actually setting a trial date, although I realize that in these cases it will continuously be remanded due to some excuse or another, since many believe that the whole case is open and shut and LE and the Crown have ALL their ducks in line.

Preliminary meetings are just that meetings between Crown, Defence Counsel and a judge if necessary. I can also be called a case management conference. It's to discuss the case, get evidence removed, charges reduced, etc. It would be like a case conference, and it's always done behind closed doors and the public is not privy to what is discussed at that time. The defence can then provide evidence to the Crown that they normally wouldn't have which could effect the original charge and the possibility of having the charge reduced (i.e., from first degree to manslaughter).

A preliminary inquiry (or is where the evidence is brought forth in an actual court proceeding and the defence has a chance to cross-examine any witness brought forth and the judge can decide at the point whether there is enough evidence to find the accused guilty and not go trial, dismiss charges, or decide here is enough evidence to go trial and set a trial date.

My personal view is that MTR's lawyers are a lot closer to setting a trial date than TLM's lawyer, though she could very well just plead guilty and there won't be an actual trial. I haven't heard or seen in the media that there have been any meetings between TLM's lawyer and the Crown, then again, she may just not have broadcast it to the media. I still think a trial is a long way off and likely won't happen until sometime in 2010 (then again, that's not that far off anymore). Remands are more for the court, to ensure that the case is moving along, which is why you normally see them every month or so. Remands are pretty standard procedure.

Pre-Trial Motions would likely happen during the judicial pre-trial meetings. If defence feels that the Crown has not provided all disclosure, they can bring forth a motion to the Court and the court can then order all disclosure be given within reasonable time frame - which would be a common pre-trial motion.

Here is an interesting link from the Attorney General's site about case management conferences (which is the same thing that MTR's lawyer is doing right now with the Crown).

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/lesage_code/chapter_4.asp

[nonfictionrocks]

Preliminary meetings are just that meetings between Crown, Defence Counsel and a judge if necessary. I can also be called a case management conference. It's to discuss the case, get evidence removed, charges reduced, etc. It would be like a case conference, and it's always done behind closed doors and the public is not privy to what is discussed at that time. The defence can then provide evidence to the Crown that they normally wouldn't have which could effect the original charge and the possibility of having the charge reduced (i.e., from first degree to manslaughter).

A preliminary inquiry (or is where the evidence is brought forth in an actual court proceeding and the defence has a chance to cross-examine any witness brought forth and the judge can decide at the point whether there is enough evidence to find the accused guilty and not go trial, dismiss charges, or decide here is enough evidence to go trial and set a trial date.

My personal view is that MTR's lawyers are a lot closer to setting a trial date than TLM's lawyer, though she could very well just plead guilty and there won't be an actual trial. I haven't heard or seen in the media that there have been any meetings between TLM's lawyer and the Crown, then again, she may just not have broadcast it to the media. I still think a trial is a long way off and likely won't happen until sometime in 2010 (then again, that's not that far off anymore). Remands are more for the court, to ensure that the case is moving along, which is why you normally see them every month or so. Remands are pretty standard procedure.

Pre-Trial Motions would likely happen during the judicial pre-trial meetings. If defence feels that the Crown has not provided all disclosure, they can bring forth a motion to the Court and the court can then order all disclosure be given within reasonable time frame - which would be a common pre-trial motion.

Here is an interesting link from the Attorney General's site about case management conferences (which is the same thing that MTR's lawyer is doing right now with the Crown).

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/lesage_code/chapter_4.asp

Thanks NBG, your input has been excellent and not to beat a dead horse, a preliminary inquiry is somewhat the same as a grand jury hearing and/or indictment in the U.S. where it is decided if there is enough evidence to proceed to trail and MTR case is not at this stage yet - correct?

[dilbert]

this is all so confusing, i wish i went to law school, LOL

[nobodyzgirl]

Thanks NBG, your input has been excellent and not to beat a dead horse, a preliminary inquiry is somewhat the same as a grand jury hearing and/or indictment in the U.S. where it is decided if there is enough evidence to proceed to trail and MTR case is not at this stage yet - correct?


Hi NFR, you are correct, a preliminary inquiry would be very similiar to a grand jury hearing and MTR's case is not at the stage yet. I would suspect it's getting closer, though not quite there. We may have some new information when he goes to court next week (hopefully).

[nobodyzgirl]

If TLM is probably going to plead guilty why has this not been done in court yet. She has had several appearances since her arrest. It seems to me that MTR's court proceedings are moving along at a quicker pace. I understand that by pleady guilty TLM might not have any need for any preliminary meetings so why doesn't she enter her plea and the justice system can get on with hearing her tale and doling out her sentence...unless there is still much more to come in this sega?

It could be that TLM's lawyer is trying to work a deal with the Crown, by having her testify at MTR's trial. I am assume they are still receiving disclosure from the Crown, so she could be waiting until all the disclosure is in. It's also very possible that she wants to take her chance with a jury and will be pleading "not guilty", hoping to prove reasonable doubt, or at least have the charges reduced to second degree murder or manslaughter. The wheels of justice sometimes seem to turn very slow.

[antiquegirl]

(BBM)

Maybe the officer you spoke with was referring to the ongoing preliminary hearings, which are confidential and never open to the media or public.

I just received a reply from the LFP about this question. A direct quote from their news desk:

"With any matter that's at the pre-trial phase, a publication ban is generally placed on evidence heard in those pre-trial hearings."

HTH

[nurse_sleuth]

I just received a reply from the LFP about this question. A direct quote from their news desk:

"With any matter that's at the pre-trial phase, a publication ban is generally placed on evidence heard in those pre-trial hearings."

HTH
The last I heard the LFP was not above the law. There was no misinterpretation on my part of what was said.. it was clear and concise, and as I worded it in my message. As I have said.. contact a detective, working on the case!!

[Summersolstice]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/publicationbans/

Note: a publication ban must be requested by the parties involved. If they do not request it, there is no publication ban.

[nobodyzgirl]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/publicationbans/

Note: a publication ban must be requested by the parties involved. If they do not request it, there is no publication ban.

Welcome to the Board SummerSolstice and thanks for the information.

The last I heard the LFP was not above the law. There was no misinterpretation on my part of what was said.. it was clear and concise, and as I worded it in my message. As I have said.. contact a detective, working on the case!!

This is just my humble opinion, though it could be that the person that mentioned the ban was misinformed. Also, just my humble opinion again I don't see the point in a publication ban yet because the only court appearances that the media would be allowed at are the set dates and nothing is really done at those. The media would not attend pretrials or judicial pretrials.

[CarrieBean]

(BBM)

Respectfully, I can't think of any case like this that had a publication ban. Just a few examples of child murder trials here in Canada that had no bans:

Randal Dooley - http://www.vachss.com/help_text/reports/randal_dooley.html

Emmily Lucas - http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/10/29/11562451-sun.html

Holly Jones - http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/jones_holly/

Jeffrey Baldwin - http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/10/01/Baldwincase20051001.html

Karissa Boudreau - http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090130/boudreau_mom_090130/20090130/?hub=TorontoNewHome

If there were already a publication ban on this case, the media would have stated that fact. These bans are considered "unconstitutional" and are usually opposed by the media (citing "freedom of the press"). They are occasionally legally contested by lawyers for certain publications.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:tH7dsO8vHb0J:www.cbc.ca/news/background/publicationbans/+publication+ban+freedom+of+the+press&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

TLM may never have a trial if she pleads guilty. She will still have to disclose all her info about the crime to the Crown, but if there is a trial for MTR, this info will have to be kept under wraps until after that trial. If there are two trials, I don't believe we will hear the details of the first until after the second. Once both trials are over, the bans should be lifted and the media would be free to report on the proceedings. I seriously doubt that the public will be kept in the dark about this crime.

JMO

No publication ban on this trial either, involving a child, in Ontario.

Melody Burtis and her Son Harley Baxter-Burtis. http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1232119

[nonfictionrocks]

Hi NFR, you are correct, a preliminary inquiry would be very similiar to a grand jury hearing and MTR's case is not at the stage yet. I would suspect it's getting closer, though not quite there. We may have some new information when he goes to court next week (hopefully).

Thanks for catching me up again on this item and thanks to all who finally have cleared up the publication ban issue as well!

[nonfictionrocks]

TLM may never have a trial if she pleads guilty. She will still have to disclose all her info about the crime to the Crown, but if there is a trial for MTR, this info will have to be kept under wraps until after that trial. If there are two trials, I don't believe we will hear the details of the first until after the second. Once both trials are over, the bans should be lifted and the media would be free to report on the proceedings. I seriously doubt that the public will be kept in the dark about this crime.

JMO

Since TLM has not to-date entered any plea and it probably is unlikely that a deal will be made with her what are the chances that she might plead not guilty and take her chances with a jury? Perhaps this might be her plan and if both accused plan to plead not guilty is it to MTR's advantage to get to the trial stage first?

[antiquegirl]

Since TLM has not to-date entered any plea and it probably is unlikely that a deal will be made with her what are the chances that she might plead not guilty and take her chances with a jury? Perhaps this might be her plan and if both accused plan to plead not guilty is it to MTR's advantage to get to the trial stage first?

I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see how TLM can plead not guilty after more-or-less leading LE to the location of Tori's remains. It's almost certain that before doing this, she had to have confessed to at least being there when the remains were disposed of. If it can be proved that it is she in the security video leading Tori away, those two facts would automatically make her guilty under the law covering abduction and the death of the victim.

In spite of how we all feel about it, if I understand some of what I've researched, pleading guilty to a crime often results in some kind of plea bargain. The judge may decide to drop some charges and rule a verdict on others. Or he/she may decide to reduce the First Degree Murder Charge to Second Degree. I think this depends on the skill of the defense attorney and is at the discretion of the judge.

One example of this is the Cecilia Zhang case. Min Chen, the abductor/murderer, was initially charged with First Degree Murder, as per the law. He pleaded guilty to Second Degree Murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment with a chance of parole after 15 years.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ceciliazhang/ (Incidentally, there was no publication ban on this case either.)

Here are a couple of articles on the Guilty Plea and on plea bargaining that are easy to understand.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ObTIsgJVrEQJ:www.torontocriminaldef ence.com/articles/EpZuVVEAukzonKJxBN.php+guilty+plea&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0006344

[nobodyzgirl]

Since TLM has not to-date entered any plea and it probably is unlikely that a deal will be made with her what are the chances that she might plead not guilty and take her chances with a jury? Perhaps this might be her plan and if both accused plan to plead not guilty is it to MTR's advantage to get to the trial stage first?

It's hard to tell whether she will plead not guilty or not. I personally think that she would plead guilty and avoid the trial, though the client gets to make the final decision and she could very well decide, against her lawyer's advice, to plead not guilty and have it go to trial and take her chances. TLM strikes me as wanting the attention that a trial would bring. Look at WK - he pleaded not guilty, and I'm pretty sure he know that he was going to get convicted on all 8 counts of first degree.

I think there could be a slight advantage if MTR made it to court first and I have a sneaky suspicion that TLM may very well be a witness for the Crown (though she could be hostile witness). MTR's lawyers definitely seem to be pushing the case through the system, which makes me curious about the disclosure they have received so far. I'd be interested to see once they get to trial, if MTR's lawyers will actually put him on the stand and take the consequence of being cross-examined by the Crown.

[Summersolstice]

No publication ban on this trial either, involving a child, in Ontario.

Melody Burtis and her Son Harley Baxter-Burtis. http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1232119

Two trials for one murder, with a temporary publication ban in place, not involving a child:

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1772394

A lawyer of note, Jeanine LeRoy, has withdrawn as counsel for Robinson.

[dilbert]

one would think the press would announce that there was a publication ban as well, wouldn't they? i haven't seen anything like that in the papers.

[nobodyzgirl]

one would think the press would announce that there was a publication ban as well, wouldn't they? i haven't seen anything like that in the papers.

ITA especially because the media is very opposed to publication bans, so they would make sure it's known to the public.

[antiquegirl]

ITA especially because the media is very opposed to publication bans, so they would make sure it's known to the public.

Exactly. I just got an e-mail from a newspaper and he wrote that there is "nothing to ban yet" and that the pre-trial motions that they're going through right now are never public.

[ChaChaCha]

http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/625645

Thought I would post this article from today's Record since it outlines the current battle between criminal lawyers and the Legal Aid system concerning the rate of pay for gang related and murder trials... It appears as though the courts will not allow a lawyer to resign from a case for "monetary" reasons. The lawyer in this local case had just come off the Bandidos trial (can anybody say "I got spit on after all my hard work") and apparently cannot afford to continue with this case for legal aid rates.

Having said that, I understand that there are certain circumstances under which an Ontario lawyer defending an accused murdered can apply to LA for an increased rate (which covers both their time and their expenses). LA will allocate an amount, and then, if more funds are required, can increase the amount accordingly.

I wanted to get this out here now as we were discussing why the MR case seems to be progressing more quickly than TLM's.... perhaps her lawyer will not be continuing to represent her for her own "financial reasons". I note that she did not appear at the last appearance, but sent a junior instead... In the event that TLM wishes to plead not guilty, then there will be more work for her lawyer than a guilty plea would involve, especially given that there is a mountain of disclosure to go through, her history of bailing on a case and the fact that she is "terribly busy".

Do you think that TLM's lawyer took the case for exposure? Do you think that she will continue to represent TLM through to the end, or ask to have herself removed?

[Summersolstice]

one would think the press would announce that there was a publication ban as well, wouldn't they? i haven't seen anything like that in the papers.

The trial has to begin in order for a publication ban to be in place. This is done at the preliminary hearing. It must be requested by the lawyers involved.

The trial itself is not normally under a publication ban, except in cases like the Clifford Fair murder, where testimony in separate trials for the same murder may jeopardize the second accused's trial. There are also exceptions, such as crimes committed by juveniles or crimes where the victim is a juvenile, where the details of the trial are made public, but names are withheld. Tori is deceased, so normally this would not happen. In this case, we may well see the judge impose a temporary publication ban for the trial of whoever goes first. This is to protect the second accused's right to a fair trial. Who knows -- maybe they'll both plead guilty.

As we recall from the Paul Bernardo trial, reporters from overseas attended the preliminary hearing and reported on testimony that was subject to the publication ban. Canadian reporters were not allowed to do this. The internet has come along in the interim, so things could get very messy if foreign media take an interest in these trials.

[Summersolstice]

http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/625645

Thought I would post this article from today's Record since it outlines the current battle between criminal lawyers and the Legal Aid system concerning the rate of pay for gang related and murder trials... It appears as though the courts will not allow a lawyer to resign from a case for "monetary" reasons. The lawyer in this local case had just come off the Bandidos trial (can anybody say "I got spit on after all my hard work") and apparently cannot afford to continue with this case for legal aid rates.

Having said that, I understand that there are certain circumstances under which an Ontario lawyer defending an accused murdered can apply to LA for an increased rate (which covers both their time and their expenses). LA will allocate an amount, and then, if more funds are required, can increase the amount accordingly.

I wanted to get this out here now as we were discussing why the MR case seems to be progressing more quickly than TLM's.... perhaps her lawyer will not be continuing to represent her for her own "financial reasons". I note that she did not appear at the last appearance, but sent a junior instead... In the event that TLM wishes to plead not guilty, then there will be more work for her lawyer than a guilty plea would involve, especially given that there is a mountain of disclosure to go through, her history of bailing on a case and the fact that she is "terribly busy".

Do you think that TLM's lawyer took the case for exposure? Do you think that she will continue to represent TLM through to the end, or ask to have herself removed?

She already had herself removed as counsel for Mr. Robinson in the Clifford Fair murder trial. It wouldn't look good to quit another case so soon after. This would definitely appear opportunistic. To be fair, MR is getting the junior lawyers for some court appearances at this stage in the game, too.

[nonfictionrocks]

We were able to determine if MR's lawyer is being paid by Legal Aid?

Did you see this announcement?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89783


A young girl "runs away" from home but her parents didn't report her missing until almost 5 months (July) later and she died less than a week after she ran away in February 1993. She was found approximately 18 miles from where she lived with her parents and was finally identified 16 years later! A case that was solved by a WS member - great job!

[nobodyzgirl]

http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/625645

Thought I would post this article from today's Record since it outlines the current battle between criminal lawyers and the Legal Aid system concerning the rate of pay for gang related and murder trials... It appears as though the courts will not allow a lawyer to resign from a case for "monetary" reasons. The lawyer in this local case had just come off the Bandidos trial (can anybody say "I got spit on after all my hard work") and apparently cannot afford to continue with this case for legal aid rates.

Having said that, I understand that there are certain circumstances under which an Ontario lawyer defending an accused murdered can apply to LA for an increased rate (which covers both their time and their expenses). LA will allocate an amount, and then, if more funds are required, can increase the amount accordingly.

I wanted to get this out here now as we were discussing why the MR case seems to be progressing more quickly than TLM's.... perhaps her lawyer will not be continuing to represent her for her own "financial reasons". I note that she did not appear at the last appearance, but sent a junior instead... In the event that TLM wishes to plead not guilty, then there will be more work for her lawyer than a guilty plea would involve, especially given that there is a mountain of disclosure to go through, her history of bailing on a case and the fact that she is "terribly busy".

Do you think that TLM's lawyer took the case for exposure? Do you think that she will continue to represent TLM through to the end, or ask to have herself removed?

BBM I think TLM's lawyer took the case for exposure. I think she will represent her to the end. I think it's standard practice to have a junior handle the remands, because nothing really happens at them anyway, and it's also a teaching lesson for young associates.

[nobodyzgirl]

]We were able to determine if MR's lawyer is being paid by Legal Aid?[/B]Did you see this announcement?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89783


A young girl "runs away" from home but her parents didn't report her missing until almost 5 months (July) later and she died less than a week after she ran away in February 1993. She was found approximately 18 miles from where she lived with her parents and was finally identified 16 years later! A case that was solved by a WS member - great job!

I don't think it was ever confirmed 100%, though I suspect that his lawyer(s) are being paid through legal aid. My impression is that he doesn't come from a very wealthy family (MOO) and it would bevery costly in legal fees alone, not to mention the disbursements that would be incurred in a criminal case.

[nonfictionrocks]

I don't think it was ever confirmed 100%, though I suspect that his lawyer(s) are being paid through legal aid. My impression is that he doesn't come from a very wealthy family (MOO) and it would bevery costly in legal fees alone, not to mention the disbursements that would be incurred in a criminal case.

To your knowledge NBG, would a lawyer EVER take a case like this pro bono or do lawyers like that only exist in movies?

[nobodyzgirl]

To your knowledge NBG, would a lawyer EVER take a case like this pro bono or do lawyers like that only exist in movies?

Hi NFR, I have never in my entire career seen a lawyer take a criminal case like this pro bono. It could happen, though most lawyers would likely claim their time through legal aid.

[nonfictionrocks]

I believe MR and team have a date with the Crown and judge tomorrow. I am curious if we will hear of anything.

[nobodyzgirl]

I believe MR and team have a date with the Crown and judge tomorrow. I am curious if we will hear of anything.

I think you are correct about the court appearance. I hope we hear something new, like they are setting up the pre-trial meeting, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's another remand.

[Jenny44]

Just waiting patiently for some news on this case...it's frustrating!

[Summersolstice]

Remember the PCs, where TM denied a $20G drug debt? Many wondered how it would be possible for a drug user to accrue this much debt.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/15/9121336-sun.html

Here is the case of a drug dealer who killed a police officer. It involves a $17,000 drug debt, and the exchange of a gun. You'll need to scroll down. The information is near the end of the article:

"Bulatci said he had gone to Hay River from Edmonton to sell crack cocaine to pay a $17,000 debt to a fellow drug dealer. He stopped en route to trade three ounces of cocaine for a handgun."

From: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/just+panicked+just+Bulatci+tells+court/2214721/story.html

[Summersolstice]

I have done a great deal of looking, but cannot find what TM called a "negative previous experience" with the press. She said this explained why she did not speak up during the early days of the investigation into Victoria's disappearance:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/16/9131481-sun.html

Note that TM reportedly "chased down" reporters who were leaving a PC to try to quash the $20G drug debt rumor noted in the post above. This was the first time I saw it reported that way.

[dilbert]

I have done a great deal of looking, but cannot find what TM called a "negative previous experience" with the press. She said this explained why she did not speak up during the early days of the investigation into Victoria's disappearance:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/16/9131481-sun.html

Note that TM reportedly "chased down" reporters who were leaving a PC to try to quash the $20G drug debt rumor noted in the post above. This was the first time I saw it reported that way.

lol "during the early days of the investigation..."

what? like the previous week?

:rolleyes:

[nobodyzgirl]

I have done a great deal of looking, but cannot find what TM called a "negative previous experience" with the press. She said this explained why she did not speak up during the early days of the investigation into Victoria's disappearance:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/16/9131481-sun.html

Note that TM reportedly "chased down" reporters who were leaving a PC to try to quash the $20G drug debt rumor noted in the post above. This was the first time I saw it reported that way.

I personally wouldn't put much stock in what she says. At one point she was going to sue for slander, etc. and that never went anywhere (not that I expected it to). Her negative previous experience likely stems from the media not agreeing with what she says and questioning things that she did say, because later on she would contradict what she had originally said in her pressers.

[Summersolstice]

I personally wouldn't put much stock in what she says. At one point she was going to sue for slander, etc. and that never went anywhere (not that I expected it to). Her negative previous experience likely stems from the media not agreeing with what she says and questioning things that she did say, because later on she would contradict what she had originally said in her pressers.

The "chasing down" sounded peculiar, too.

[antiquegirl]

I personally wouldn't put much stock in what she says. At one point she was going to sue for slander, etc. and that never went anywhere (not that I expected it to). Her negative previous experience likely stems from the media not agreeing with what she says and questioning things that she did say, because later on she would contradict what she had originally said in her pressers.

Except for the natural skepticism after the "limo ride", I was always amazed at how most of those reporters tiptoed around the most salient questions, seemingly sucking up to TM. I could think of dozens of more important questions to ask but none of them did. Then I spoke to one Toronto reporter and found out why. Either you were on TM's good side, or you weren't. If you ticked her off with a question that she found accusatory, she'd no longer take your calls. That's how the LFP got all those exclusives - they didn't ask anything "offensive" and acted as if they believed every word that came out of TM's mouth. It paid off for them.

[Summersolstice]

lol "during the early days of the investigation..."

what? like the previous week?

:rolleyes:

Exactly. Cannot find a zipper-mouth icon to insert here!

[dilbert]

Exactly. Cannot find a zipper-mouth icon to insert here!

hahaha!

[dilbert]

just saw this on one of the victoria stafford facebook walls. i had no idea they were going to do this or where it was. i guess it was private?

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18141

Tori Stafford is being remembered by the Homicide Investigation Team that helped find her body, and make a pair of arrests in her death. The team is holding a memorial presentation in Woodstock this morning. Members of Tori's family and Child Find Ontario will be there.

[nobodyzgirl]

The "chasing down" sounded peculiar, too.

I could actually see her "chasing down" the media to ensure they agreed with what she was saying...

[nonfictionrocks]

I have done a great deal of looking, but cannot find what TM called a "negative previous experience" with the press. She said this explained why she did not speak up during the early days of the investigation into Victoria's disappearance:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/04/16/9131481-sun.html

Note that TM reportedly "chased down" reporters who were leaving a PC to try to quash the $20G drug debt rumor noted in the post above. This was the first time I saw it reported that way.

I'd like to add:

She said a negative previous experience with the media -- "I wasn't treated very fairly or with respect," she said -- made her uneasy around reporters.

Respect is earned over time - I think it's safe to say that her previous experience was due to some "negative" association or activity that involved LE too. JMO

[ChaChaCha]

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=973737

From April 2008... unidentified friend... hmmmmmm. Could this be the "experience".

[nonfictionrocks]

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=973737

From April 2008... unidentified friend... hmmmmmm. Could this be the "experience".


Nice find Cha.

Help slow coming for burned out family; wife of imprisoned biker wonders if it's because who lived at farmhouse

Ya think?!?!

[ChaChaCha]

Nice find Cha.

Help slow coming for burned out family; wife of imprisoned biker wonders if it's because who lived at farmhouse

Ya think?!?!

I kinda thought so months ago when I found this article after TM stated that she'd had a previous bad experience with the press. Afterwards I was able to confirm that TM and TK were indeed on each other's facebooks - both had daughters about the same age and there were apparently playdates with the kids.... If TM stood up for TK in April 2008, it is possible that there was other press coverage that perhaps never hit the internet or has since expired that did not show TM in the best light. There is, I believe, one more article out there that describes a friend at the farmhouse right after the fire who gave an interview but "she did not want her name released". If the friend is indeed TM, this could be the cause of her initial "media phobia". Y'all know where I ended up from there... :truce:

[dilbert]

I kinda thought so months ago when I found this article after TM stated that she'd had a previous bad experience with the press. Afterwards I was able to confirm that TM and TK were indeed on each other's facebooks - both had daughters about the same age and there were apparently playdates with the kids.... If TM stood up for TK in April 2008, it is possible that there was other press coverage that perhaps never hit the internet or has since expired that did not show TM in the best light. There is, I believe, one more article out there that describes a friend at the farmhouse right after the fire who gave an interview but "she did not want her name released". If the friend is indeed TM, this could be the cause of her initial "media phobia". Y'all know where I ended up from there... :truce:

i wonder what tina's middle name is? there was a person on facebook that was posting in support of tara a while ago and she went by the name "tina maria", a lot of people thought it was tara herself posting.

curious.

to add, you likely already know this but tara's aunt linda (pepper) jacklin was a member of the "help wayne kellestine get a fair trial" facebook group until someone posted that on the main stafford family wall and suddenly *poof*, no longer a member.

[ChaChaCha]

i wonder what tina's middle name is? there was a person on facebook that was posting in support of tara a while ago and she went by the name "tina maria", a lot of people thought it was tara herself posting.

curious.

to add, you likely already know this but tara's aunt linda (pepper) jacklin was a member of the "help wayne kellestine get a fair trial" facebook group until someone posted that on the main stafford family wall and suddenly *poof*, no longer a member.

Grrrr... don't wind me up dilbert! LOL!!! I saw that, and it made me wonder if Pepper was WK's first wife Linda - amazing likeness - but I haven't been able to make a definitive connection yet. I dunno about tina maria, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if she & TK were one and the same...after all both women could use each other's support this past year, and it's a small world! My hat is off to NFR who was finally able to provide me with the name of the mysterious witness MH - through her diligence and a stroke of luck - so now I can sleep at night.

[nonfictionrocks]

I kinda thought so months ago when I found this article after TM stated that she'd had a previous bad experience with the press. Afterwards I was able to confirm that TM and TK were indeed on each other's facebooks - both had daughters about the same age and there were apparently playdates with the kids.... If TM stood up for TK in April 2008, it is possible that there was other press coverage that perhaps never hit the internet or has since expired that did not show TM in the best light. There is, I believe, one more article out there that describes a friend at the farmhouse right after the fire who gave an interview but "she did not want her name released". If the friend is indeed TM, this could be the cause of her initial "media phobia". Y'all know where I ended up from there... :truce:

BBM - or more like "removed"

CCC and JH:

Never underestimate the IT skills and resources of LE, the Crown and the defence teams in removing any internet trails that leaves us almost nothing to follow. I have been enlightened during my search of the ever mysterious MH.

[nonfictionrocks]

The side by side photo comparison of LK and Aunt Pepper were in the RT which now cannot be accessed.

Since there are new posters on this thread many have not seen this photo layout and their input could be very valuable. Does anyone have this saved somewhere and can post it here now?

I would like to add that we no longer have an RT for this case and some other cases on this site have be able to regained theirs. I am wondering what we need to do to have ours reinstated?

[antiquegirl]

The side by side photo comparison of LK and Aunt Pepper were in the RT which now cannot be accessed.

Since there are new posters on this thread many have not seen this photo layout and their input could be very valuable. Does anyone have this saved somewhere and can post it here now?

I would like to add that we no longer have an RT for this case and some other cases on this site have be able to regained theirs. I am wondering what we need to do to have ours reinstated?

I don't have the side-by-side, but I do have this. If someone has a pic of Pepper, a new composite could be made. Personally, I can't be sure it's the same woman - mainly because how could the media possibly have missed this important detail? JMO

ETA: Wait. On second thought, this is the current media we're talking about. Never mind.

[nonfictionrocks]

I don't have the side-by-side, but I do have this. If someone has a pic of Pepper, a new composite could be made. Personally, I can't be sure it's the same woman - mainly because how could the media possibly have missed this important detail? JMO

ETA: Wait. On second thought, this is the current media we're talking about. Never mind.

AG, any idea how long ago this picture was taken? The reason I ask is that after what LK has been through over the past 3 years; "breadwinner" going to prison, house burning to the ground and the community not coming to her rescue and just the general lifestyle she lived, could contibute to aging a person quite quickly over a short period of time.

[ChaChaCha]

AG, any idea how long ago this picture was taken? The reason I ask is that after what LK has been through over the past 3 years; "breadwinner" going to prison, house burning to the ground and the community not coming to her rescue and just the general lifestyle she lived, could contibute to aging a person quite quickly over a short period of time.

The photo posted above is WK with an unidentified woman (I asked a LFP reporter who she was but did not receive a reply). It was taken a few years ago during a rally that WK set up that had to do with stopping abuse against children. The photo is likely 4-5 years old. If you look at the photo of TM with Auntie P from one of her first pressers, you can definately see the resemblance. However this photo may be of WK's current wife, Tina, who he met when she was working as a stripper many years ago - in which case any resemblance to Auntie P would be coincidental... But no, Auntie P is not TK...although as you say Auntie P is/was a supporter of WK, which absolutely just freaks me out. Really... who in their right mind would publicly support that evil piece of sh*t??? Hence, I think that there has to be a personal connection between Auntie P (whose real name is L Jacklin) & WK.

[antiquegirl]

The photo posted above is WK with an unidentified woman (I asked a LFP reporter who she was but did not receive a reply). It was taken a few years ago during a rally that WK set up that had to do with stopping abuse against children. The photo is likely 4-5 years old. If you look at the photo of TM with Auntie P from one of her first pressers, you can definately see the resemblance. However this photo may be of WK's current wife, Tina, who he met when she was working as a stripper many years ago - in which case any resemblance to Auntie P would be coincidental... But no, Auntie P is not TK...although as you say Auntie P is/was a supporter of WK, which absolutely just freaks me out. Really... who in their right mind would publicly support that evil piece of sh*t??? Hence, I think that there has to be a personal connection between Auntie P (whose real name is L Jacklin) & WK.

Hi, Cha!

I really don't think the redhead can possibly be TK. She's much too old and doesn't look anything like this picture of the actual TK, as found on FB.

http://www.facebook.com/EmpressOfLaziness?ref=profile#/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049

(If anyone can't see this page, let me know and I'll do it another way.)

[nonfictionrocks]

The photo posted above is WK with an unidentified woman (I asked a LFP reporter who she was but did not receive a reply). It was taken a few years ago during a rally that WK set up that had to do with stopping abuse against children. The photo is likely 4-5 years old. If you look at the photo of TM with Auntie P from one of her first pressers, you can definately see the resemblance. However this photo may be of WK's current wife, Tina, who he met when she was working as a stripper many years ago - in which case any resemblance to Auntie P would be coincidental... But no, Auntie P is not TK...although as you say Auntie P is/was a supporter of WK, which absolutely just freaks me out. Really... who in their right mind would publicly support that evil piece of sh*t??? Hence, I think that there has to be a personal connection between Auntie P (whose real name is L Jacklin) & WK.

Cha, I'm sorry I did not write my post very clear. The article said that the farm was originally purchased by Wayne and his previous wife Linda. I am wondering if Linda K and L Jacklin (Aunt Pepper) are the same woman? The woman he is pictured with might be his ex Linda taken while they were still together or that perhaps they stayed friendly after separating. The reason I added the aging part was because if ex Linda still had ties to WK financially (her name was still on the deed) and it would be safe to say that it is doubtful her lifestyle changed all that much after their break up, she could have aged tremendously in a short period of time.

[dilbert]

maybe they are sisters, or cousins. they do look alike.

[antiquegirl]

maybe they are sisters, or cousins. they do look alike.

(BBM)

"This is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl."

LOL. I'm probably the only one here who is old enough to remember that.

[dilbert]

(BBM)

"This is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl."

LOL. I'm probably the only one here who is old enough to remember that.

hahaha!! ok, point taken (i do remember that, newhart, wasn't it?)

i thought we were talking about tina k and linda J though, sorry, i confuse easily!

[dilbert]

Hi, Cha!

I really don't think the redhead can possibly be TK. She's much too old and doesn't look anything like this picture of the actual TK, as found on FB.

http://www.facebook.com/EmpressOfLaziness?ref=profile#/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049

(If anyone can't see this page, let me know and I'll do it another way.)

did you look through the photos in that group, there is a woman with red hair that looks like the woman in the photo you posted ealier.

i think that IS tina k

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049#/photo.php?pid=30047122&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=89646297049&id=1567206572

[dilbert]

they look like a classy bunch.

there is a woman that looks an awful lot like SG-L, maybe her mother?

likely not but wow, the resemblances are uncanny.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049#/photo.php?pid=30047123&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=89646297049&id=1567206572&fbid=1014746380064

[antiquegirl]

hahaha!! ok, point taken (i do remember that, newhart, wasn't it?)

i thought we were talking about tina k and linda J though, sorry, i confuse easily!

Yep, Newhart. :)

Maybe I'm the one who's confused. I thought we were talking about the two Lindas. Cha thought the redhead with WK was his ex-wife with that name and that she looked like TM's (step) aunt, Pepper. Have I got that right, Cha? The woman with the dark hair in the FB pic is Tina K, who I don't think looks like either of the redheads.

It occurred to me, though, that in that crazy mixed-up family, siblings with the same name would not be unheard of. TM has two brothers called Mike. I don't know if they are half or step-brothers, or one of each.

[antiquegirl]

did you look through the photos in that group, there is a woman with red hair that looks like the woman in the photo you posted ealier.

i think that IS tina k

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049#/photo.php?pid=30047122&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=89646297049&id=1567206572

Okay, so the picture in the main Profile must be a pretty old one. She looks much younger, thinner, and brunette. I just assumed it was a current pic and didn't see the others. I'll have to compare the group shots to the one I posted. Thanks.

[antiquegirl]

did you look through the photos in that group, there is a woman with red hair that looks like the woman in the photo you posted ealier.

i think that IS tina k

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049#/photo.php?pid=30047122&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=89646297049&id=1567206572

Honestly, I really can't tell.

But I found it interesting that in this picture, TK is wearing a sweatshirt and cap with the acronym EOA. This stands for East of Adelaide, which is (or was) a London street gang. A poster here wrote that it was rumoured that TLM belonged to that gang. I have no idea if the gang still exists or if the rumour is true, but it's another coincidence.
Or not.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

JMO

[dilbert]

Honestly, I really can't tell.

But I found it interesting that in this picture, TK is wearing a sweatshirt and cap with the acronym EOA. This stands for East of Adelaide, which is (or was) a London street gang. A poster here wrote that it was rumoured that TLM belonged to that gang. I have no idea if the gang still exists or if the rumour is true, but it's another coincidence.
Or not.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

JMO

that is what i noticed too. i just asked a friend who lives in london and she said that there IS a gang called that in london.

i'm not positive but i thought there was mention of EOA on tlm's facebook.

[antiquegirl]

they look like a classy bunch.

there is a woman that looks an awful lot like SG-L, maybe her mother?

likely not but wow, the resemblances are uncanny.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=89646297049#/photo.php?pid=30047123&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=89646297049&id=1567206572&fbid=1014746380064

I know exactly which one you mean and I agree. Looks a bit young to be SG-L's mother, but who knows.

[ChaChaCha]

Honestly, I really can't tell.

But I found it interesting that in this picture, TK is wearing a sweatshirt and cap with the acronym EOA. This stands for East of Adelaide, which is (or was) a London street gang. A poster here wrote that it was rumoured that TLM belonged to that gang. I have no idea if the gang still exists or if the rumour is true, but it's another coincidence.
Or not.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

JMO

The first photos out of TM she was wearing a "trucker's" hat... it was dark... quick - a prize to the first person who can tell me what the writing was on that particular hat - second prize goes to anyone else identifying TM in either a similar hat or sweatshirt...

[ChaChaCha]

no freaking way!? EOA?

Oh no dilbert! I honestly don't know! I was just asking a question!!!

If however there is a connection between Auntie P & WK, and obviously there is, then it makes perfect sense that with MR housed in the same facility as the B's during their trial that WK would have a particular interest in terrorizing him or, if the chance arose, perhaps even seriously harming him... Another reason maybe that MR was moved to Chatham?

I did see however where many of the B's were being dispatched to prisons nearer their families - one out west, a few out east. WK, if I am not mistaken, will remain local... keeping in mind that at least three of the convicted have filed appeals...

[dilbert]

Oh no dilbert! I honestly don't know! I was just asking a question!!!

If however there is a connection between Auntie P & WK, and obviously there is, then it makes perfect sense that with MR housed in the same facility as the B's during their trial that WK would have a particular interest in terrorizing him or, if the chance arose, perhaps even seriously harming him... Another reason maybe that MR was moved to Chatham?

I did see however where many of the B's were being dispatched to prisons nearer their families - one out west, a few out east. WK, if I am not mistaken, will remain local... keeping in mind that at least three of the convicted have filed appeals...

gotcha. i'm going to delete that other post so i don't confuse anyone. i think you're right about why MR was moved.

[nobodyzgirl]

(BBM)

"This is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl."

LOL. I'm probably the only one here who is old enough to remember that.

I am familiar with the quote, so you aren't alone AG.

[sillybilly]

... Does anyone have this saved somewhere and can post it here now?

Just popping in to say Hi to all. I think these are the 2 pics we're talking about here ... Linda J aka Aunt P on the left, and WK and lady friend on the right. The pic of WK was at a rally 5 years ago.:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/LindaJ.jpghttp://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/WayneKandbabe.jpg

HTH

[antiquegirl]

Just popping in to say Hi to all. I think these are the 2 pics we're talking about here ... Linda J aka Aunt P on the left, and WK and lady friend on the right. The pic of WK was at a rally 5 years ago.:


Billy!!! Geez, I missed you. Where have you been? Don't be a stranger, eh?

:blowkiss:

[antiquegirl]

Since people are digging up old pics, does anyone have a screenshot (or shots) of TLM's Facebook page? I have her Tagged profile, but not FB and would really like to save it. Please and thank you. :)

[sillybilly]

Billy!!! Geez, I missed you. Where have you been? Don't be a stranger, eh?

:blowkiss:

Hi AG !! Never too far away ... been sleuthing in the background on a bunch of unsolved cases. Making a bit of headway on a few things :Banane10:

[sillybilly]

Hence, I think that there has to be a personal connection between Auntie P (whose real name is L Jacklin) & WK.

Catching up here Cha, but I seem to recall that early in the game, when asked about any connection to the B incident, someone (either TM or Aunt P) made reference to Tori having played out at the farm.

[ChaChaCha]

Catching up here Cha, but I seem to recall that early in the game, when asked about any connection to the B incident, someone (either TM or Aunt P) made reference to Tori having played out at the farm.

Thanks Billy... I recall that too.... Tori and TK's daughter were fairly close in age - the daughter was in Grade 3 in 2008 when the fire occurred...

IMO (very strong opinion here) AuntieP and lady friend in the shot from 6 years ago- apparently protesting at a gay pride parade - ago are indeed one and the same....

WK's organization was "Bikers Against Pedophiles" which he apparently formed with David Weiche (see reference to him above) was at the gay pride parade to protest. Assuming that WK considered MR a pedophile no wonder MR was harrassed while incarcarated in London...

http://www.petitiononline.com/bapweb01/petition.html
http://www.scootergoods.com/bikers_against_pedophiles_rally_.htm

[Summersolstice]

Just popping in to say Hi to all. I think these are the 2 pics we're talking about here ... Linda J aka Aunt P on the left, and WK and lady friend on the right. The pic of WK was at a rally 5 years ago.:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/LindaJ.jpghttp://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/WayneKandbabe.jpg

HTH

It's a match, IMO. How about that daughter of WK who apparently is about 20 years old?

[Summersolstice]

I kinda thought so months ago when I found this article after TM stated that she'd had a previous bad experience with the press. Afterwards I was able to confirm that TM and TK were indeed on each other's facebooks - both had daughters about the same age and there were apparently playdates with the kids.... If TM stood up for TK in April 2008, it is possible that there was other press coverage that perhaps never hit the internet or has since expired that did not show TM in the best light. There is, I believe, one more article out there that describes a friend at the farmhouse right after the fire who gave an interview but "she did not want her name released". If the friend is indeed TM, this could be the cause of her initial "media phobia". Y'all know where I ended up from there... :truce:

Well, ya know, TM said on FB that JG was working on "the farm". Made me wonder which farm.

As for the protest against pedophiles, what about that daughter of WK's who is about 20 years old?

[Summersolstice]

You decide:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=eoa+gang+london&meta=&aq=f&oq=eoa+gang+london&fp=cf2547b2365d1cd0

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=eoa+%2B+terri-lynne+mcclintic&meta=&aq=f&oq=&fp=cf2547b2365d1cd0

The Toronto Star story (removed) had some comments about just that topic.

[Summersolstice]

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=david+weiche&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=david+weiche&fp=1&cad=b

[Summersolstice]

Catching up here Cha, but I seem to recall that early in the game, when asked about any connection to the B incident, someone (either TM or Aunt P) made reference to Tori having played out at the farm.

Going back down this road again, please refresh my tired memory if I am incorrect.

LJ (Aunt P) is the mother of TM's half-brother JJ-Ferraz-etc., who lives in Gleichen near his mother's house. That mother would be LJ? That would be the LJ who arranged the bikers' ride for Victoria.

As we understand it, brother J's common link to TM would be his father, who is TM's father, too. That's the father, who TM alluded to a long time ago when she said something about the M name not being something to be proud of, so she had used the H surname in high school.

Connecting some dots from earlier information, WK's daughter, who is said to be about 20 years old, could feasibly be LJ's daughter? WK's daughter was said to have gone "out west" at some point. Or was this daughter by someone else? And what happened to her?

And further to all this, there's the name M appearing in the story of JG's cousin, the one who murdered his wife in Ingersoll a few years back. The murdered wife, SS, had a son by the name of M. I don't know if this is another link or not.

[antiquegirl]

You decide:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=eoa+gang+london&meta=&aq=f&oq=eoa+gang+london&fp=cf2547b2365d1cd0

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=eoa+%2B+terri-lynne+mcclintic&meta=&aq=f&oq=&fp=cf2547b2365d1cd0

The Toronto Star story (removed) had some comments about just that topic.

Well, going by this FB group and the pictures here, I'd say ... HELL, yeah!

http://hi-in.facebook.com/photo_search.php?oid=49898219892&view=all

Note the blue bandana on the child with the pacifier in his mouth [UGH!]. Looks the same as the one TLM wore in her Tagged profile. The question is, was TLM a member, or just a wannabe.

JMO

[Summersolstice]

Daughter mentioned here:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060412/kellestine_background_060412/20060413/

Completely irrelevant, but odd connection to WK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona_Station,_Ontario

As I recall from now-gone articles, the mother of WK's other daughter, the one who is about 20 now, was also a stripper, and the child was seized by child welfare authorities. This could account for much of the confusion between LJ and TK, if indeed LJ is the mother of the 20-something daughter.

So what I am saying is that there may be a CM connection to WK and the mother of his 20-something daughter. As we recall, CM was also a stripper, which is how she adopted TLM with RM.

[antiquegirl]

Eeek! I can't quite process all this, but I had to make a quick correction.

Going back down this road again, please refresh my tired memory if I am incorrect.

Linda Jacklin (Aunt P) is the mother of Tara's half-brother John Jacklin-Ferraz-etc., who lives in Gleichen near his mother's house. That mother would be Linda Jacklin. That would be the Linda Jacklin who arranged the bikers' ride for Victoria.

LJ is not JJ's mother, but his aunt (his mother's sister). I am pretty sure that JJ is TM's step-brother - making LJ not even blood related to TM. Since LJ is living in the Woodstock area, I presume that Jim married LJ's sister locally and when they divorced, she went out west and married Mr. F. But, yes, LJ arranged the motorcycle ride.

As we understand it, brother John's common link to TM would be his father, who is TM's father, too. That's the father, Jim, that TM alluded to a long time ago when she said something about the McDonald name not being something to be proud of, so she had used the Harris surname in high school.

Yes, Jim was married to JJ's mother, but I'm pretty sure is not his biological father. JJ appears to be a bit older than TM and likely already around when Jim married his mother. It's an extremely complicated family tree - more like a jungle than a tree.

Connecting some dots from earlier information, WK's daughter, who is said to be about 20 years old, could feasibly be LJ's daughter? WK's daughter was said to have gone "out west" at some point. Or was this daughter by someone else? And what happened to her?

And further to all this, there's the name McDonald appearing in the story of JG's cousin, the one who murdered his wife in Ingersoll a few years back. The murdered wife, Sandra Schott, had a son by the name of McDonald. I don't know if this is another link or not.

I'd respectfully suggest that you edit your posts to use initials only instead of full names before the mods come in and delete them. It's against the TOS.

[matou]

Someone please exlain: even if TM was friends with any of the Kellestines, what involvement would they have in Tori's abduction/murder? What would have been their motive to hurt Tori? TIA I thought it was revealed that JG was not the informant of the Banditos trial.

[Summersolstice]

Honestly, I really can't tell.

But I found it interesting that in this picture, TK is wearing a sweatshirt and cap with the acronym EOA. This stands for East of Adelaide, which is (or was) a London street gang. A poster here wrote that it was rumoured that TLM belonged to that gang. I have no idea if the gang still exists or if the rumour is true, but it's another coincidence.
Or not.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

JMO

The windows are dirtier than mine.

[antiquegirl]

Someone please exlain: even if TM was friends with any of the Kellestines, what involvement would they have in Tori's abduction/murder? What would have been their motive to hurt Tori? TIA I thought it was revealed that JG was not the informant of the Banditos trial.

I'm not an expert on this theory, so others may be able to add to this, or correct it, but I can think of several connections:


JG may not have been THE main informant in the trial, but that doesn't mean he wasn't one secretly.


The original rumour of a drug debt by TM and/or JG may be based on fact.


Possible connection of WK to CM through the stripper angle and TLM being paid to abduct, or just trying to impress a major gang.


I'm far from convinced that there is a connection here, but am open to all suggestions.

JMO

[Summersolstice]

Someone please exlain: even if TM was friends with any of the Kellestines, what involvement would they have in Tori's abduction/murder? What would have been their motive to hurt Tori? TIA I thought it was revealed that JG was not the informant of the Banditos trial.

What if the Ks were not motivated to harm Tori, but someone was angry at the Ks?

No, I don't think anyone is saying JG was involved in the Btrial.

[Summersolstice]

I'm not an expert on this theory, so others may be able to add to this, or correct it, but I can think of several connections:


JG may not have been THE main informant in the trial, but that doesn't mean he wasn't one secretly.


The original rumour of a drug debt by TM and/or JG may be based on fact.


Possible connection of WK to CM through the stripper angle and TLM being paid to abduct, or just trying to impress a major gang.


I'm far from convinced that there is a connection here, but am open to all suggestions.

JMO

As we have seen in a trial going on across the country, it is possible to have a $17,000 drug debt. This trial, posted earlier, involved a dealer owing a debt to another dealer. It's not a stretch to imagine that dealers have $20,000 debts, too.

The common denomination in all of these items seems to be drugs.

[Summersolstice]

http://www.counterweights.ca/2006/04/southwestern_ontario/

Yes, these are interesting time for places like Lucan and Iona.

[antiquegirl]

What if the Ks were not motivated to harm Tori, but someone was angry at the Ks?

No, I don't think anyone is saying JG was involved in the Btrial.

Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not getting this. What would someone being angry at the Ks have to do with Tori's abduction?

[nonfictionrocks]

What if the Ks were not motivated to harm Tori, but someone was angry at the Ks?

No, I don't think anyone is saying JG was involved in the Btrial.

This is what I was thinking. It would not be easy to grab TK's daughter as they would be on high alert especially after the fire. Maybe grabbing the next best thing was the objective. We know that TM and TK were "friends" but we do not know the extent of their relationship. We know that TM knew TLM but again, we do not know the full extent of that relationship. We know that CM was a stripper so it is safe to assume that she probably has some affiliation with MCs and that TLM would have grown up in this lifestyle.

Const. Maitland stated that "the undercurrents of this case is huge". IMO a messed up teenage girl grabbing a girl to give as a prize to her murderous lover is pretty much an open and shut case. As harsh as this scenario may be to many, I don't think it would warrant the undercurrent comment. Just the other brother Darry'ls opinion. LOL

[Summersolstice]

This is what I was thinking. It would not be easy to grab TK's daughter as they would be on high alert especially after the fire. Maybe grabbing the next best thing was the objective. We know that TM and TK were "friends" but we do not know the extent of their relationship. We know that TM knew TLM but again, we do not know the full extent of that relationship. We know that CM was a stripper so it is safe to assume that she probably has some affiliation with MCs and that TLM would have grown up in this lifestyle.

Const. Maitland stated that "the undercurrents of this case is huge". IMO a messed up teenage girl grabbing a girl to give as a prize to her murderous lover is pretty much an open and shut case. As harsh as this scenario may be to many, I don't think it would warrant the undercurrent comment. Just the other brother Darry'ls opinion. LOL

Let's take this a little further, and ask why anyone would be angry at the Ks. Well, it's safe to assume that many people had reason to be angry at the Ks:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/06/21/bandido-killing.html
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091113/bandidos_book_091114/20091114/?hub=MontrealHome
http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Crime/article/626853

[antiquegirl]

This is what I was thinking. It would not be easy to grab TK's daughter as they would be on high alert especially after the fire. Maybe grabbing the next best thing was the objective. We know that TM and TK were "friends" but we do not know the extent of their relationship. We know that TM knew TLM but again, we do not know the full extent of that relationship. We know that CM was a stripper so it is safe to assume that she probably has some affiliation with MCs and that TLM would have grown up in this lifestyle.

Const. Maitland stated that "the undercurrents of this case is huge". IMO a messed up teenage girl grabbing a girl to give as a prize to her murderous lover is pretty much an open and shut case. As harsh as this scenario may be to many, I don't think it would warrant the undercurrent comment. Just the other brother Darry'ls opinion. LOL

NFR, can you please help me out.

Blue - I can't remember how we know this. Can you please refresh my memory?

Red - Try as I might, I can't think of who or what "MCs" is/are.

TIA

[Summersolstice]

One more link to the past about the turf war:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=3f5e8ffb-a009-4493-8073-d1ad7743cc27

Is it reasonable to assume that street gangs have ties to MCs? Yes:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/14/8390111-sun.html

[nonfictionrocks]

NFR, can you please help me out.

Blue - I can't remember how we know this. Can you please refresh my memory?

Red - Try as I might, I can't think of who or what "MCs" is/are.

TIA

Sorry AG, I picked that tidbit up somewhere else but it was reinforced when Cha posted the article the other night that may have explained TM "previous negative experience" with the media.

MC's - Motorcycle Clubs

[nonfictionrocks]

Just popping in to say Hi to all. I think these are the 2 pics we're talking about here ... Linda J aka Aunt P on the left, and WK and lady friend on the right. The pic of WK was at a rally 5 years ago.:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/LindaJ.jpghttp://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/WayneKandbabe.jpg

HTH

Thanks SB. This was the side by side I was talking about. We know that the woman on the left is Aunt Pepper (Linda J - no makeup). Could the one the right be Linda K (dolled up to look all nice for the gang - LOL)? Could they possibly be the same woman keeping in mind that if Aunt Pepper is also LK she has had one hell of a ride over the past 3 years. What d'yall think?

[antiquegirl]

Sorry AG, I picked that tidbit up somewhere else but it was reinforced when Cha posted the article the other night that may have explained TM "previous negative experience" with the media.

MC's - Motorcycle Clubs

Ah, thanks.

I was thinking that TM may have had plenty of opportunities to have negative experiences with the media. Think about all the times that JG has been busted, especially the most recent one about the snow blower. It's feasible that the press tried to interview him and TM after those arrests and ticked her off. And with that entire family, other prior run-ins with the media are not inconceivable.

Speaking of which, I recently read that JG was convicted of at least one of those previous charges. How come he's never done time? I'm very suspicious that he has managed to avoid going to prison with the record he has. I know that our legal system is seriously flawed, but still ... this is what makes me suspicious that he has some kind of pull with LE (like informant).

JMO

[antiquegirl]

Thanks SB. This was the side by side I was talking about. We know that the woman on the left is Aunt Pepper (Linda J - no makeup). Could the one the right be Linda K (dolled up to look all nice for the gang - LOL)? Could they possibly be the same woman keeping in mind that if Aunt Pepper is also LK she has had one hell of a ride over the past 3 years. What d'yall think?

I thought that picture was 5 years old. Still, if it's her, she's aged quite a lot. I don't know - I could go either way. I think it's mostly the hair colour that makes us so suspicious. If one of them was a brunette, it might not even occur to anyone.

JMO

[antiquegirl]

Let's take this a little further, and ask why anyone would be angry at the Ks. Well, it's safe to assume that many people had reason to be angry at the Ks:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/06/21/bandido-killing.html
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091113/bandidos_book_091114/20091114/?hub=MontrealHome
http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Crime/article/626853

All I have to do is look at any picture of WK, and I get angry. What a greasy sleazeball! And to read his record? He must be certifiably insane.

JMO

[crystalsleuth]

Something tells me that we are on to something with this. I think it is possible that TLM may have been trying to gain entry and thought taking Tori might be a good way to prove herself.

[nonfictionrocks]

Honestly, I really can't tell.

But I found it interesting that in this picture, TK is wearing a sweatshirt and cap with the acronym EOA. This stands for East of Adelaide, which is (or was) a London street gang. A poster here wrote that it was rumoured that TLM belonged to that gang. I have no idea if the gang still exists or if the rumour is true, but it's another coincidence.
Or not.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

JMO

This is a very interesting angle but isn't TK just a tad old to be a member of street gang? Off to read up on this gang since my other fav gang members are all in prison now LOL!

[Summersolstice]

This is a very interesting angle but isn't TK just a tad old to be a member of street gang? Off to read up on this gang since my other fav gang members are all in prison now LOL!

Someone might have given it as a gift, say, a relative or friend. Former gang members also get old.

[Summersolstice]

Something tells me that we are on to something with this. I think it is possible that TLM may have been trying to gain entry and thought taking Tori might be a good way to prove herself.

Some types of initiations:

http://faculty.missouristate.edu/M/MichaelCarlie/what_I_learned_about/gangs/join_a_gang.htm

[crystalsleuth]

This is a very interesting angle but isn't TK just a tad old to be a member of street gang? Off to read up on this gang since my other fav gang members are all in prison now LOL!

TK is a member of the FB group EOA...

[Summersolstice]

TK is a member of the FB group EOA...

What a coincidence. Take a look at this:

http://www.insideprison.com/elgin-middlesex-detention-centre.asp

[Summersolstice]

That guy holding the baby looks familiar. Where have I seen his face before?

[nonfictionrocks]

That guy holding the baby looks familiar. Where have I seen his face before?

I can't see this picture - can anyone else?

[Summersolstice]

I wonder who the woman was who laid this trap, saw everything, then was forced to clean up:

http://www.yorkregion.com/News/Georgina/article/66399

No idea if it's relevant to Tori's case.

[crystalsleuth]

That guy holding the baby looks familiar. Where have I seen his face before?

I don't know, but his name is John.

[crystalsleuth]

I can't see this picture - can anyone else?

try this

[dilbert]

That guy holding the baby looks familiar. Where have I seen his face before?

skip ahead a few photos, it says his name JF.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49898219892#/photo.php?pid=2162693&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=49898219892&aid=-1&oid=49898219892&id=561287008&fbid=74940732008

[Summersolstice]

skip ahead a few photos, it says his name JF.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49898219892#/photo.php?pid=2162693&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=49898219892&aid=-1&oid=49898219892&id=561287008&fbid=74940732008

Minor interest in genealogy, but isn't that a Mennonite surname from East Zorra?

[Summersolstice]

I understand that some methadone clinics give their clients methadone to take home for later use. In some cases in some communities, clients sell this methadone on the streets. This is an example, but I understand it goes on in Canadian cities, too:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/06/nyregion/an-alternative-to-methadone-is-approved.html

Is anyone familiar with the practices of the clinics in the Woodstock area?

[Summersolstice]

Another coincidence. A man arrested for shoplifting at Woodstock Canadian Tire has the same last name as the ex-BF of MR's ma. It's Nov. 9 news:

http://www.1047.ca/news.php?date=2009-11-12%2014:49:15&range=30

This is the same Canadian Tire store which was in the news earlier this year with a similar incident involving someone else. Apparently it's a popular place to "shop". And let's not forget the charges against the owners of a Woodstock pawn shop (located on the same street as a pizza joint and methadone clinic).

[greenthumb]

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

Local paper reporting on donations from OPP to Child Find Ontario. Rodney continues to set a great example for his son - he has dealt with this tragedy with strength, commitment and compassion. It seems that he has really grown as an individual over these last few months, despite such difficult circumstances and being under public scrutiny - I admire him.

[Summersolstice]

"TK" reviews the latest Bandidos book:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/2009/11/02/11603376.html

[maxfactor]

"TK" reviews the latest Bandidos book:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/2009/11/02/11603376.html

lol, kinda silly for her to put her name on that! Sounds like a threat to me. I also find it quite odd that she is thought to be a member of the EOA. If her husband is Bandito it seems highly unlikely that she would be part of a different gang unless the two gangs are affiliated somehow. Does anyone know if they are?

[maxfactor]

Another coincidence. A man arrested for shoplifting at Woodstock Canadian Tire has the same last name as the ex-BF of MR's ma. It's Nov. 9 news:

http://www.1047.ca/news.php?date=2009-11-12%2014:49:15&range=30

This is the same Canadian Tire store which was in the news earlier this year with a similar incident involving someone else. Apparently it's a popular place to "shop". And let's not forget the charges against the owners of a Woodstock pawn shop (located on the same street as a pizza joint and methadone clinic).

I'm originally from that area and that is quite a popular last name down there. They could very well be related though.

[Summersolstice]

Just popping in to say Hi to all. I think these are the 2 pics we're talking about here ... Linda J aka Aunt P on the left, and WK and lady friend on the right. The pic of WK was at a rally 5 years ago.:

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/LindaJ.jpghttp://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/WayneKandbabe.jpg

HTH

I found an article from 2006 about back taxes on the Iona farm that said that LJK was 44 years old at the time. That would make LJK 47 or 48 now, depending on her birth date, and assuming the article was correct.

The same article also referred to "TF", not "TK". It described her as a live-in girlfriend, not wife. But then again, those terms are used interchangeably by people these days.

A bigger pic of LJ with TM:

http://www.thetelegram.com/photos/Telegram/stories/nat1apr211.jpg

[Summersolstice]

lol, kinda silly for her to put her name on that! Sounds like a threat to me. I also find it quite odd that she is thought to be a member of the EOA. If her husband is Bandito it seems highly unlikely that she would be part of a different gang unless the two gangs are affiliated somehow. Does anyone know if they are?

Besides, her name is TF:

http://www.timminspress.com/PrintArticle.aspx?e=1711924

I think we can say that street gangs in general do have ties to MCs:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090212/montreal_sweeps_090212/20090212?hub=Canada

EOA and other area gangs may be loosely organized, with little difference between wannabes and bes:

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1692834&auth=JOE%20BELANGER%20THE%20LONDON%20FREE%20PRESS

[nobodyzgirl]

"TK" reviews the latest Bandidos book:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/2009/11/02/11603376.html

Are you talking about the comment that was made by TK at the bottom of this article? I can't see that she would make any sort of "threat" in the paper, especially after the convictions. I actually don't believe that is really her making that comment - though that's JMO.

[Summersolstice]

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2176420

[antiquegirl]

lol, kinda silly for her to put her name on that! Sounds like a threat to me. I also find it quite odd that she is thought to be a member of the EOA. If her husband is Bandito it seems highly unlikely that she would be part of a different gang unless the two gangs are affiliated somehow. Does anyone know if they are?

I think the groups might be affiliated somehow. These pictures of TK wearing the gang clothing and cap and sitting with a definite member pretty much proves it to me.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30068645&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572#/photo.php?pid=30068646&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=89646297049&aid=-1&oid=89646297049&id=1567206572

There are other pics of her in this album wearing the same gear.

FWIW, I believe she did write that comment about the book. Pretty dumb, too. As if the writers who published the books about PB and KH ever had to get permission from them or their families. It's called freedom of the press. Not only that, but it's not libel if it's true.

And sure it's a threat. Isn't that what these people do, threaten and intimidate when someone crosses them?

JMO

[sillybilly]

I think the groups might be affiliated somehow. These pictures of TK wearing the gang clothing and cap and sitting with a definite member pretty much proves it to me ...

I agree AG. Just breezing around FB on Rusty R:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8499284579#/profile.php?ref=sgm&id=1352854502

his FB page shows he is a member of numerous FB groups including various EOA. Just did some preliminary scanning at the above link, and I notice on his wall, he and others sending out warm fuzzies to Tina K.

Interesting in his pics there are some middle-aged folks sporting EOA paraphenalia. I am suspecting that some of the "oldsters" might be in charge of getting the younger gangs up and running for the arms-length benefit of the more established gangs. The upper echelon likes the street gangs doing the dirty work and keeping distance in order to insulate themselves.

It seems EOA is reasonably established in numbers, recognition, paraphenalia, etc.

Someone earlier (sorry I forget who) mentioned "wannabes vs the bes" ... the wannabes can in fact be involved in quite dangerous activities in their attempts to impress the "bes".

ETA: Could also be they are just a loosely knit bunch of peeps who in fact live "East of Adelaide" :)

[maxfactor]

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

Local paper reporting on donations from OPP to Child Find Ontario. Rodney continues to set a great example for his son - he has dealt with this tragedy with strength, commitment and compassion. It seems that he has really grown as an individual over these last few months, despite such difficult circumstances and being under public scrutiny - I admire him.

I agree with you 100%. I also have great admiration for this man. Ever since the beginning of this whole nightmare I felt very badly for him. I think he will go on to do great things for missing children, the bike ride was only the beginning IMO.

[antiquegirl]

I agree AG. Just breezing around FB on Rusty R:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8499284579#/profile.php?ref=sgm&id=1352854502

his FB page shows he is a member of numerous FB groups including various EOA. Just did some preliminary scanning at the above link, and I notice on his wall, he and others sending out warm fuzzies to Tina K.

Interesting in his pics there are some middle-aged folks sporting EOA paraphenalia. I am suspecting that some of the "oldsters" might be in charge of getting the younger gangs up and running for the arms-length benefit of the more established gangs. The upper echelon likes the street gangs doing the dirty work and keeping distance in order to insulate themselves.

It seems EOA is reasonably established in numbers, recognition, paraphenalia, etc.

Someone earlier (sorry I forget who) mentioned "wannabes vs the bes" ... the wannabes can in fact be involved in quite dangerous activities in their attempts to impress the "bes".

ETA: Could also be they are just a loosely knit bunch of peeps who in fact live "East of Adelaide" :)

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

[ChaChaCha]

All I can say is OMG! Middle aged EOAs? Warm and fuzzies? Nice quote from TinaK...surprised that she didn't write a book...oh, wait, that's just silly - change that to "dictate" a book... You would think after everything that has happened in her life that she would take her kid and run like h*ll someplace where nobody could find them...does she seriously think that raising her daughter in this kind of culture is safe for her? Are these gang affiliations the "undercurrents" that LE had referred to? And where can I get the book???

I know that I have had my Bandidos theories in the past - goodness knows there are enough bikers and gang members woven in and out of this case to make a blanket, but these days I really just think that TM ticked off TLM, who retaliated by being a little bit vindictive. There is no evidence that I have seen or heard that says TLM was pledging a gang, or that there was a conspiracy of more than the two charged.

I wonder if TLM did try to contact TM the day that Tori was abducted, but couldn't get a hold of her because her phone was in the pawn shop...perhaps TLM wanted to bring TM to her knees and recoup a few of the $$$ that TLM or her mother was owed?

TLM's plan to contact TM may have backfired when she couldn't get a hold of TLM before grandma reported Tori missing to LE... Perhaps Tori pitched a fit and they either drugged her or forcibly restrained her to keep her quiet, which resulted in her death?

Remember too TM's comments at the beginning (where is that dam* quote?) that things got out of hand and now the abductors didn't know how to release Tori?

Best laid plans of mice and men...

[nonfictionrocks]

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

AG, I can't access this FB page but the group I saw look like an awfully nice bunch. If we go to the party might we get a discount on the logo street wear? Please send my RSVP along with yours. LOL

[ChaChaCha]

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

I'll go with you AG... we'll have to get disguised though... and keep our backs against the wall. I may have to borrow the dog's neck hankie (the one with the yellow bones) but we can take my new 4WD with the tinted windows if you like...great for surveillance and quick getaways across the field...

[nobodyzgirl]

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

BBM: I'm in, we could do some sleuthing LOL

[ChaChaCha]

AG, I can't access this FB page but the group I saw look like an awfully nice bunch. If we go to the party might we get a discount on the logo street wear? Please send my RSVP along with yours. LOL

Good! You can come with me too! You can ride shotgun!

[ChaChaCha]

BBM: I'm in, we could do some sleuthing LOL

Pick you up on the way by...

[nonfictionrocks]

Good! You can come with me too! You can ride shotgun!

BBM
Should I bring one too - I'd hate to be the only one there not packing.

[ChaChaCha]

BBM
Should I bring one too - I'd hate to be the only one there not packing.

I think that means you can sit in the front passenger seat! But ya, bring one anyways~!

[sillybilly]

Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood ...

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)


Now AG, you know SB was just covering SB's ol' cyber-butt here :croc:(couldn't find my tongue in cheek emoticon :) )

Speaking of CYA, would love to be your date at the soiree dahling, but not sure my leathers will cover that multitude of sins. I'll bet ChaX3 is game (tee hee)

ETA: OMG ... you folks are all so ahead of me here. (OMG = "Oh My God", not "outlaw motorcycle gangs"). The only heat I be packing these days is Rub A535. Sad, eh? ;)

[antiquegirl]

All I can say is OMG! Middle aged EOAs? Warm and fuzzies? Nice quote from TinaK...surprised that she didn't write a book...oh, wait, that's just silly - change that to "dictate" a book... You would think after everything that has happened in her life that she would take her kid and run like h*ll someplace where nobody could find them...does she seriously think that raising her daughter in this kind of culture is safe for her? Are these gang affiliations the "undercurrents" that LE had referred to? And where can I get the book???

I know that I have had my Bandidos theories in the past - goodness knows there are enough bikers and gang members woven in and out of this case to make a blanket, but these days I really just think that TM ticked off TLM, who retaliated by being a little bit vindictive. There is no evidence that I have seen or heard that says TLM was pledging a gang, or that there was a conspiracy of more than the two charged.

I wonder if TLM did try to contact TM the day that Tori was abducted, but couldn't get a hold of her because her phone was in the pawn shop...perhaps TLM wanted to bring TM to her knees and recoup a few of the $$$ that TLM or her mother was owed?

TLM's plan to contact TM may have backfired when she couldn't get a hold of TLM before grandma reported Tori missing to LE... Perhaps Tori pitched a fit and they either drugged her or forcibly restrained her to keep her quiet, which resulted in her death?

Remember too TM's comments at the beginning (where is that dam* quote?) that things got out of hand and now the abductors didn't know how to release Tori?

Best laid plans of mice and men...

Great minds think alike. This has always been my theory and I've posted it several times. But if anyone wanted to complicate it a bit with the addition of a few bikers or gang members, I can dig it. The only constants are TLM, TM/JG, drugs, vengeance or extortion, MTR dragged into it either semi-informed or unaware, got out of hand, TLM did the unmentionable, MTR accessory to disposal, busted!

JMO

[ChaChaCha]

Now AG, you know SB was just covering SB's ol' cyber-butt here :croc:(couldn't find my tongue in cheek emoticon :) )

Speaking of CYA, would love to be your date at the soiree dahling, but not sure my leathers will cover that multitude of sins. I'll bet ChaX3 is game (tee hee)

ETA: OMG ... you folks are all so ahead of me here. (OMG = "Oh My God", not "outlaw motorcycle gangs"). The only heat I be packing these days is Rub A535. Sad, eh? ;)

You can come too billy! (singing: Billy, don't be a hero!) OMG! I LOVE THAT!

We can pack some heat - the front seats have butt warmers - high and low... so it doesn't matter if yer chaps don't cover yer rear! You'll be a hot babe by the time we get there...

[antiquegirl]

All I can say is OMG! Middle aged EOAs? Warm and fuzzies? Nice quote from TinaK...surprised that she didn't write a book...oh, wait, that's just silly - change that to "dictate" a book... You would think after everything that has happened in her life that she would take her kid and run like h*ll someplace where nobody could find them...does she seriously think that raising her daughter in this kind of culture is safe for her? Are these gang affiliations the "undercurrents" that LE had referred to? And where can I get the book???

(Respectfully snipped and BBM)

Are you kidding? If you saw the profile pics in that EOA FB group, about half of them have their kids in them. And about half of those babies are wearing the ubiquitous blue bandana - one actually across the bottom of his face. I shudder to think of those kids' future. It makes me throw up a little.

LOL @ SB - I knew your tongue was in your cheek, girl.

Okay, so it sounds like a partay with Cha at the wheel. I'm so excited. ;)

[ChaChaCha]

Okay guys, now that we actually have a forum, as opposed to months ago when we tore through thread after thread, why can we not start at the beginning and actually pull out some of those colorful quotes from the pressers to explore the theory that TM thought that the abduction was just a vindictive prank....hindsight is 50/50, and now we have some.

Don't forget the beauties like "Tori probably thinks she is on vacation" and the one about her being able to take a bath... If we can timeline the dates of the comments and what event precluded it, then all the better.

What was going on in TM's head, and why did she think that?

[maxfactor]

You can come too billy! (singing: Billy, don't be a hero!) OMG! I LOVE THAT!

We can pack some heat - the front seats have butt warmers - high and low... so it doesn't matter if yer chaps don't cover yer rear! You'll be a hot babe by the time we get there...

You guys are hilarious! Pick me up on the way! Love the OMG!!

[ChaChaCha]

You guys are hilarious! Pick me up on the way! Love the OMG!!

Okay, you are in... now, does anyone have a nasty doberman that wants to make the trip too? I have room in the back...

[nonfictionrocks]

Great minds think alike. This has always been my theory and I've posted it several times. But if anyone wanted to complicate it a bit with the addition of a few bikers or gang members, I can dig it. The only constants are TLM, TM/JG, drugs, vengeance or extortion, MTR dragged into it either semi-informed or unaware, got out of hand, TLM did the unmentionable, MTR accessory to disposal, busted!

JMO

The constants remain the same but oh how the bikers and the gang bangers add sooo much more colour to the theory!

[flipflop]

I was just going back through some old reports, found one dated April 12th

On Monday, police called off the search for Tori, saying they believe the child is still alive.

I wonder what made LE to believe this so early in the case (this newspaper was dated april 14th, just one week after Tori went missing)

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Child+disappearance+every+parent+worst+nightmare/1494686/story.html

[Summersolstice]

Okay guys, now that we actually have a forum, as opposed to months ago when we tore through thread after thread, why can we not start at the beginning and actually pull out some of those colorful quotes from the pressers to explore the theory that TM thought that the abduction was just a vindictive prank....hindsight is 50/50, and now we have some.

Don't forget the beauties like "Tori probably thinks she is on vacation" and the one about her being able to take a bath... If we can timeline the dates of the comments and what event precluded it, then all the better.

What was going on in TM's head, and why did she think that?

As requested:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090412/missing_girl_090412/20090412?hub=TopStories

[flipflop]

I’m praying to God that somebody feels in their heart and soul that what they have done is wrong and just drop her off, anywhere,” McDonald said Monday. “In a field. Somewhere remote where nobody sees them drop her off. Just drop her off so that somebody can find her.”

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Archive+Mother+missing+girl+abductors+Just+drop+fi eld/1514832/story.html

[maxfactor]

I was just going back through some old reports, found one dated April 12th

On Monday, police called off the search for Tori, saying they believe the child is still alive.

I wonder what made LE to believe this so early in the case (this newspaper was dated april 14th, just one week after Tori went missing)

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Child+disappearance+every+parent+worst+nightmare/1494686/story.html
Wasn't TLM arrested on April 12th?

[flipflop]

Wasn't TLM arrested on April 12th?

yes she was!!!! and it was 2 days before april 12th that McClintics neighbours called her in to LE and told them about cutting her hair , about TLM owning a white puffy coat, about how she looked the woman in the video and TLM acting weird and hiding when LE came door to door searching....and LE CALLS OFF THE SEARCH THINKING TORI IS ALIVE?????? I don't get it?

[sillybilly]

On Monday, police called off the search for Tori, saying they believe the child is still alive.

I wonder what made LE to believe this so early in the case (this newspaper was dated april 14th, just one week after Tori went missing)
<snip>

JMO flip, I'm not so sure they believed it 100% but they may have been trying to put a positive psychological spin into the head of any potential perp ... reinforcing the idea in the perp's head that if Tori is alive, we can keep things from going from bad to worse.

[nonfictionrocks]

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

Where exactly is this party going to held - I still can't read the link for the details. If LE had any suspicion that the EOA group is involved in this case wouldn't this party be a great place to round up a whole bunch of them and see what they all know?

[maxfactor]

okay, here I am going waaaaaaaaay out on a limb again, but.... what if LE picked TLM up on the 12th, having strong suspicions she had something to do with Tori's disappearance, then they realize that TM knows her. now they really think TM is involved, hence the limo sting to see if they can trip her up!

[ChaChaCha]

Where exactly is this party going to held - I still can't read the link for the details. If LE had any suspicion that the EOA group is involved in this case wouldn't this party be a great place to round up a whole bunch of them and see what they all know?

They should be easy to find. We'll just look for a bunch of babies with hankies over their mouths or wrapped around their head and follow the mini-vans...

he he he !

[nobodyzgirl]

Okay guys, now that we actually have a forum, as opposed to months ago when we tore through thread after thread, why can we not start at the beginning and actually pull out some of those colorful quotes from the pressers to explore the theory that TM thought that the abduction was just a vindictive prank....hindsight is 50/50, and now we have some.

Don't forget the beauties like "Tori probably thinks she is on vacation" and the one about her being able to take a bath... If we can timeline the dates of the comments and what event precluded it, then all the better.

What was going on in TM's head, and why did she think that?

It was after the limo ride that she made the comment about "mildly vindictive" and let's not forget she thought she was going to meet a psychic on that limo ride.

"Ms. McDonald told Ms. Mulligan in an interview aired last evening that she has revised her belief that a stranger took her daughter, and now agrees with friends who "feel somebody who we know has taken Tori and they have no idea, they were just being mildly vindictive, and it went so far out of control so fast they have no idea what to do now.""

This is from the second last paragraph of the article (link below).

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20090439_mother.htm

[flipflop]

okay, here I am going waaaaaaaaay out on a limb again, but.... what if LE picked TLM up on the 12th, having strong suspicions she had something to do with Tori's disappearance, then they realize that TM knows her. now they really think TM is involved, hence the limo sting to see if they can trip her up!

and the limo ride was the next week...April 24

[ChaChaCha]

okay, here I am going waaaaaaaaay out on a limb again, but.... what if LE picked TLM up on the 12th, having strong suspicions she had something to do with Tori's disappearance, then they realize that TM knows her. now they really think TM is involved, hence the limo sting to see if they can trip her up!

I hit the thanks button but it wasn't enough... it's all in the timing!!!!

Great idea!

By the way, I am still suspicious that one lone investigator managed to find a need in a haystack exactly one day after MR changed lawyers... it appears to me that his lawyers advised him to cough it up, and he did. The chances of that LE stumbling upon the exact area and still being able to find Tori's remains is a bit much for me to swallow. I know he thanked his fellow officers etc., but as has been said before, what really happened behind the scenes is not always for public consumption. Better that they pass it off as teamwork than say that MR ponied up the location...

JMO...

[nobodyzgirl]

okay, here I am going waaaaaaaaay out on a limb again, but.... what if LE picked TLM up on the 12th, having strong suspicions she had something to do with Tori's disappearance, then they realize that TM knows her. now they really think TM is involved, hence the limo sting to see if they can trip her up!

I could be wrong, though I thought TLM was picked up for breach of probation, and this is just opinion - I don't think LE had made the connection at that point that she was involved.

[dilbert]

I hit the thanks button but it wasn't enough... it's all in the timing!!!!

Great idea!

By the way, I am still suspicious that one lone investigator managed to find a need in a haystack exactly one day after MR changed lawyers... it appears to me that his lawyers advised him to cough it up, and he did. The chances of that LE stumbling upon the exact area and still being able to find Tori's remains is a bit much for me to swallow. I know he thanked his fellow officers etc., but as has been said before, what really happened behind the scenes is not always for public consumption. Better that they pass it off as teamwork than say that MR ponied up the location...

JMO...

i'm going to have to agree here.

also, i think LE knew that TLM was involved but had no proof so they arrested her for something else. (remember, TLM's neighbours were contstantly telling the police that they suspected her, there's no way they would ignore those tips) at least they had a reason to arrest her AND question her and keep her from taking off.

she may have lied and told them that she was still alive and it wasn't until MR was picked up and he spilled the beans as to tori being dead that TLM decided to cooperate and try and tell them where the body was.
thus the reason for her charges being upgraded to 1st degree murder AFTER MR was charged.

[maxfactor]

I could be wrong, though I thought TLM was picked up for breach of probation, and this is just opinion - I don't think LE had made the connection at that point that she was involved.
That's definitely a possibility, perhaps when her neighbors were telling LE about her on the 10 they checked her out and realized she was on probation. This would have given them more cause to bring her in and hold her.

[nonfictionrocks]

i'm going to have to agree here.

also, i think LE knew that TLM was involved but had no proof so they arrested her for something else. (remember, TLM's neighbours were contstantly telling the police that they suspected her, there's no way they would ignore those tips) at least they had a reason to arrest her AND question her and keep her from taking off.

she may have lied and told them that she was still alive and it wasn't until MR was picked up and he spilled the beans as to tori being dead that TLM decided to cooperate and try and tell them where the body was.
thus the reason for her charges being upgraded to 1st degree murder AFTER MR was charged.

BBM

This is an excellent point. I have never believed for one minute that during a highly publicized child abduction search that the police were spending a second picking up any in breach violators unless they fell right into their laps!

We have never considered here that TLM could have led LE to believe that TS might be still alive (that I am aware of) and we surely don't know for sure who other than MTR she has implicated. TM even stated after the fact that JG and JJ told her that the limo ride was a sting so LE never had a hope of getting anything on tape from her or anyone else in that car. JMO

[flipflop]

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/Front/home?cid=al_gam_mostrecom

Ms. McDonald volunteered, as she always has, to come in and went through her paces: It wasn't her.

Among the others was the teenager conveniently already in custody. Ms. McClintic went through her paces, and detectives realized how very good the resemblance was. They interviewed her once, and on Tuesday, went back a second time: Ms. McClintic, in the language of lawyers, “made some admissions,” or in police lingo, gave it up.By Tuesday evening, she and Mr. Rafferty were in custody. Yesterday, they appeared in Provincial Court for the first time.

[dilbert]

guys, look at the suspect sketch and the photo of TM's during one of pc's where she's wearing a white coat. look very closely at the collar, are they not exactly the same?

http://img.citytv.com/citynews/images/2009-04/apr2309-victoriastaffordbig2.jpg

http://ncook.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/composite5x5.jpg

[ChaChaCha]

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/Front/home?cid=al_gam_mostrecom

Ms. McDonald volunteered, as she always has, to come in and went through her paces: It wasn't her.

Among the others was the teenager conveniently already in custody. Ms. McClintic went through her paces, and detectives realized how very good the resemblance was. They interviewed her once, and on Tuesday, went back a second time: Ms. McClintic, in the language of lawyers, “made some admissions,” or in police lingo, gave it up.By Tuesday evening, she and Mr. Rafferty were in custody. Yesterday, they appeared in Provincial Court for the first time.


Interesting... however it may well be a case of LE setting out a story that they want the public to believe... a whitewash? and not what really happened. Do we really think that they just sort of cruised through the jail and randomly picked out teenagers/women to walk for them? Nooooo...

More likely LE had heard enough to know that they needed TLM to walk to rattle her cage... but hey - who knows, maybe TLM's walk never really happened? Maybe they had a walk set up so that TM and TLM would be there at the same time? H*ll, I would be one cagey LE....

[maxfactor]

Interesting... however it may well be a case of LE setting out a story that they want the public to believe... a whitewash? and not what really happened. Do we really think that they just sort of cruised through the jail and randomly picked out teenagers/women to walk for them? Nooooo...

More likely LE had heard enough to know that they needed TLM to walk to rattle her cage... but hey - who knows, maybe TLM's walk never really happened? Maybe they had a walk set up so that TM and TLM would be there at the same time? H*ll, I would be one cagey LE....
oooh sneaky! You'd be great for LE

[nonfictionrocks]

I hit the thanks button but it wasn't enough... it's all in the timing!!!!

Great idea!

By the way, I am still suspicious that one lone investigator managed to find a need in a haystack exactly one day after MR changed lawyers... it appears to me that his lawyers advised him to cough it up, and he did. The chances of that LE stumbling upon the exact area and still being able to find Tori's remains is a bit much for me to swallow. I know he thanked his fellow officers etc., but as has been said before, what really happened behind the scenes is not always for public consumption. Better that they pass it off as teamwork than say that MR ponied up the location...

JMO...

BBM

After coughing this up to the old lawyer might this be the reason behind changing lawyers? Could this be part of the not guilty plea strategy? The old lawyer may know the full extent of MTR's involvement and therefore could not provide counsel to him anymore if he plans to plead not guilty. OR what if, and I know many here are not going to like this, MTR has a deal already in the works? This could easily explain why he was able to be moved to Chatham - Hell, MH is not even in jail right now and he was involved in the murder of 8 men and who the heck knows what else! JMO

[ChaChaCha]

BBM

After coughing this up to the old lawyer might this be the reason behind changing lawyers? Could this be part of the not guilty plea strategy? The old lawyer may know the full extent of MTR's involvement and therefore could not provide counsel to him anymore if he plans to plead not guilty. OR what if, and I know many here are not going to like this, MTR has a deal already in the works? This could easily explain why he was able to be moved to Chatham - Hell, MH is not even in jail right now and he was involved in the murder of 8 men and who the heck knows what else! JMO

I truly believe that MR's first lawyer was just not what MR expected... he was likely naive and thought that his lawyer would spend a lot of time with him, and more or less be at his beck and call....he may have disagreed with the first lawyer's strategy, or thought that he was not working hard or fast enough to get him out of jail.... Likely by the time he had new counsel, he had learned a lesson about lawyers (they won't fawn all over you) and perhaps he liked the second lawyer's strategy better... hence the co-operation.

I could be wrong here, but I think that if you confess to your lawyer that it should not be a problem in retaining his services so long as you don't plan on taking the stand yourself and committing perjury - which your lawyer will not want you to do. Hence the pre-trials, conferences and plea bargaining.

And yes, I think that MR is already on his way to cutting a deal to a lesser charge by co-operating and agreeing to testify against TLM - if he goes to trial first we may not hear any details of his plea/testimony if at all until such time as TLM comes to trial if he is testifying against her.

IIRC even TM complained that they are not privy to any information before trial....

[Summersolstice]

guys, look at the suspect sketch and the photo of TM's during one of pc's where she's wearing a white coat. look very closely at the collar, are they not exactly the same?

http://img.citytv.com/citynews/images/2009-04/apr2309-victoriastaffordbig2.jpg

http://ncook.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/composite5x5.jpg

Yes, the minute that sketch appeared, I thought they had drawn it from a photo of TM. I did not believe it was a composite sketch based on an eyewitness sighting.

[dilbert]

Yes, the minute that sketch appeared, I thought they had drawn it from a photo of TM. I did not believe it was a composite sketch based on an eyewitness sighting.

or someone else was wearing that coat.

[Summersolstice]

BBM

After coughing this up to the old lawyer might this be the reason behind changing lawyers? Could this be part of the not guilty plea strategy? The old lawyer may know the full extent of MTR's involvement and therefore could not provide counsel to him anymore if he plans to plead not guilty. OR what if, and I know many here are not going to like this, MTR has a deal already in the works? This could easily explain why he was able to be moved to Chatham - Hell, MH is not even in jail right now and he was involved in the murder of 8 men and who the heck knows what else! JMO

I saw an old interview on The Hour with George Stroumboulopoulos. He talked to "Alex Caine", the author of "The Fat Mexican", the new book "TK" has so graciously reviewed. "Alex Caine", a retired MC infiltrator and police agent, said the police have changed the way they do business now. Rather than infiltrating with hired guns like him, they are moving to paying former MC members to inform and providing them witness protection programs.

From what MR's lawyers have said, it sounds like a not guilty plea is in the works, which would seem to indicate no deal. Things could change before the trial. The move to Chatham, in light of the overcrowding and deaths in the EMDC, was advisable in this high-profile case. Rodney Stafford has stated that he will be attending the trial because he wants to know what happened, difficult as that will be. Every trial needs a live accused.

However, I think there are paid informants working for the police in this case.

A further note: Alex Caine was to appear yet again on The Hour on Monday November 16 to discuss this latest book. I'll have to watch the video online.

[sillybilly]

... I think that if you confess to your lawyer that it should not be a problem in retaining his services so long as you don't plan on taking the stand yourself and committing perjury ...

I'm not sure that confessing isn't a problem Cha. Lawyers have a duty to "zealously represent" their clients. Had MR confessed, HM would have been remiss in not telling his client that he could not zealously represent him in a "not guilty" plea when he was otherwise aware. HM may have told him that he could get him the best deal possible if he pled early on, but if MR persisted with his wishes to plead "not guilty", then HM could not effectively represent him (which would tend to support the assertion that it was MR's choice to change lawyers).

[antiquegirl]

I truly believe that MR's first lawyer was just not what MR expected... he was likely naive and thought that his lawyer would spend a lot of time with him, and more or less be at his beck and call....he may have disagreed with the first lawyer's strategy, or thought that he was not working hard or fast enough to get him out of jail.... Likely by the time he had new counsel, he had learned a lesson about lawyers (they won't fawn all over you) and perhaps he liked the second lawyer's strategy better... hence the co-operation.

These are the reasons I have heard from several sources that MR decided to get a new lawyer. A reporter told me that HM was (is?) going through a messy divorce and was never available when MR needed him for help or advice. It was strictly MR's decision to find a new attorney.

I could be wrong here, but I think that if you confess to your lawyer that it should not be a problem in retaining his services so long as you don't plan on taking the stand yourself and committing perjury - which your lawyer will not want you to do. Hence the pre-trials, conferences and plea bargaining.

And yes, I think that MR is already on his way to cutting a deal to a lesser charge by co-operating and agreeing to testify against TLM - if he goes to trial first we may not hear any details of his plea/testimony if at all until such time as TLM comes to trial if he is testifying against her.

IIRC even TM complained that they are not privy to any information before trial....

Cha, you actually think TM will have a trial? Everything I know about this case makes me think that she will plead guilty first and then MR will have his trial.

Off topic here - I was reading last week about a trial taking place in Toronto regarding the murder of another little girl. This time it was either the mother or her boyfriend. But what surprised and worried me is that the crime took place 6 years ago! How did this trial take so long to get to court? Is it possible that the wait for MTR's trial could stretch out this long? Legal eagles, please explain.

This is the case: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/11/13/jury-deadlocked-in-emmily-lucas-murder.aspx

[antiquegirl]

I'm not sure that confessing isn't a problem Cha. Lawyers have a duty to "zealously represent" their clients. Had MR confessed, HM would have been remiss in not telling his client that he could not zealously represent him in a "not guilty" plea when he was otherwise aware. HM may have told him that he could get him the best deal possible if he pled early on, but if MR persisted with his wishes to plead "not guilty", then HM could not effectively represent him (which would tend to support the assertion that it was MR's choice to change lawyers).

I thought it was all about the evidence. If there is insufficient evidence to prove the accused's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then it shouldn't matter to his lawyer whether he confessed to him or not. Isn't it a good lawyer's job to find loopholes in the evidence to cause reasonable doubt? I was under the impression (maybe mistaken) that unless the accused confessed directly to LE, there is always a chance of an acquittal. Hell, even if he did confess to LE, a good lawyer might still get him off. Plenty of nutjobs confess to crimes they didn't commit. Am I totally off base here?

[sillybilly]

I thought it was all about the evidence. If there is insufficient evidence to prove the accused's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then it shouldn't matter to his lawyer whether he confessed to him or not. Isn't it a good lawyer's job to find loopholes in the evidence to cause reasonable doubt? I was under the impression (maybe mistaken) that unless the accused confessed directly to LE, there is always a chance of an acquittal. Hell, even if he did confess to LE, a good lawyer might still get him off. Plenty of nutjobs confess to crimes they didn't commit. Am I totally off base here?

No, you're not off base at all. I omitted reference to evidence because presumeably there is a fair amount of it for the Crown to have proceeded with the charge; and yes, whether or not that evidence can withstand the reasonable doubt criterion will determine conviction or aquittal. The key word in my post was "zealously" ... it should matter to a lawyer if the client confesses because, while many lawyers would continue to represent regardless of the severity of the charge, an ethical lawyer might feel it would be a dis-service to their client if they could not "zealously" represent them based on their personal knowledge of the confession. If a confession, combined with the evidence, is most likely to result in a conviction, then a good lawyer would probably recommend accepting a deal ... which may have not been amenable to the client who'll take his chances elsewhere.

All the above gobblydegook aside, if HM is in fact in the middle of a stressful personal situation, I could certainly see why he and/or MR may have decided another lawyer would be in order.

[nobodyzgirl]

(snipped by me)

Off topic here - I was reading last week about a trial taking place in Toronto regarding the murder of another little girl. This time it was either the mother or her boyfriend. But what surprised and worried me is that the crime took place 6 years ago! How did this trial take so long to get to court? Is it possible that the wait for MTR's trial could stretch out this long? Legal eagles, please explain.

This is the case: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/11/13/jury-deadlocked-in-emmily-lucas-murder.aspx


AG, I'm not sure why this case took as long as it did to get to court, as it's not standard practice for a case to take this long to get to trial, though this particular trial has just been deemed a mistrial and another trial will take place. The mother was charged with second-degree murder (15 months after the child was killed), and the boyfriend, during his testimony said he did it -though he has protection under the Canada Evidence Act, so his evidence can't be used against him.

As for MTR's trial, it's highly unlikely it will take 6 years to get to trial. One of the reasons for the court appearances every month, is so that the courts know that the case is moving along and that it doesn't drag out.

[Summersolstice]

From the Alex Caine interview on The Hour:

The Shedden massacre has tentacles that reach out around the world. The eight murders were an ordered hit caused by The Bandidos, namely Jamie Flanz, stealing the HA's drugs. MC hitmen were on their way from Germany, and others were standing by in Chicago, ready to step in.

AC worked as an expert for Legal Aid in the London Bandidos trial, explaining the workings of MCs.

AC said the Bandidos in Canada are the Rock Machine. The Bandidos are not gone. Contrary to what was stated in the media, there are about 100 members currently active in Canada.

Season 6, Episode 38:

http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/

My opinions and questions:

The tentacles that reach out around the world could explain the 100 police officers working in the John Deere Forestry building in Woodstock.

Street gangs are the bottom echelon of the MC drug-dealing crime pyramid.

Could TLM/MR or even some low-level drug dealers outsmart 100 police officers? Would 100 police officers be brought in for a case of revenge and murder involving a teenager and a drug user?

Could the tentacles include a child porn ring with connections far from Ontario?

We know from the actions of the Rock Machine in Quebec that children are dispensable. An 11-year-old boy who died in RM shrapnel is an example of that. We know from EOA photos posted on the internet that babies wear do-rags and gang clothing. There is no moral code when it comes to children.

This takes us right back to the beginning: April 8, 2009. It was the day the Bandidos trial resumed, and Victoria Stafford was snatched from the streets of Woodstock. Victoria Stafford was snatched on the day the Stafford Line murders went back to court.

[Summersolstice]

Passover was about to begin on April 8, 2009. Flanz was Jewish.

[nonfictionrocks]

From the Alex Caine interview on The Hour:

The Shedden massacre has tentacles that reach out around the world. The eight murders were an ordered hit caused by The Bandidos, namely Jamie Flanz, stealing the HA's drugs. MC hitmen were on their way from Germany, and others were standing by in Chicago, ready to step in.

AC worked as an expert for Legal Aid in the London Bandidos trial, explaining the workings of MCs.

AC said the Bandidos in Canada are the Rock Machine. The Bandidos are not gone. Contrary to what was stated in the media, there are about 100 members currently active in Canada.

Season 6, Episode 38:

http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/

My opinions and questions:

The tentacles that reach out around the world could explain the 100 police officers working in the John Deere Forestry building in Woodstock.

Street gangs are the bottom echelon of the MC drug-dealing crime pyramid.

Could TLM/MR or even some low-level drug dealers outsmart 100 police officers? Would 100 police officers be brought in for a case of revenge and murder involving a teenager and a drug user?

Could the tentacles include a child porn ring with connections far from Ontario?

We know from the actions of the Rock Machine in Quebec that children are dispensable. An 11-year-old boy who died in RM shrapnel is an example of that. We know from EOA photos posted on the internet that babies wear do-rags and gang clothing. There is no moral code when it comes to children.

This takes us right back to the beginning: April 8, 2009. It was the day the Bandidos trial resumed, and Victoria Stafford was snatched from the streets of Woodstock. Victoria Stafford was snatched on the day the Stafford Line murders went back to court.

BBM

Summer, ITA, it does not take 100 cops to follow this up - do we know for sure that they are still set up at the JD building? Remember the Jane Creba case, Boxing Day 2005. Gang arrests continued for almost 2 years after this murder as the police followed all gang related activity. Activities that eventually led up to this brazen shoot-out in downtown Toronto in the middle of one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

As far as dressing their babies up in gang clothing, I think that they should be arrested just for having extremely bad taste! OMG - WTH is wrong with these people! It is as equally distateful as decorating an 11 year old boy's bedroom in Harley Davidson logos. If they continue, none of these kids have a chance at a decent life! JMO

In light of TK photo's in gang wear and her ties to the MC just reinforces Const. Maitland's "undercurrent" statement for me. The Bandidos is where I came into this case and I am not sure that we can completely eliminate them from the equation yet (and I am a tad bit stubborn).

[Summersolstice]

BBM

Summer, ITA, it does not take 100 cops to follow this up - do we know for sure that they are still set up at the JD building? Remember the Jane Creba case, Boxing Day 2005. Gang arrests continued for almost 2 years after this murder as the police followed all gang related activity. Activities that eventually led up to this brazen shoot-out in downtown Toronto in the middle of one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

As far as dressing their babies up in gang clothing, I think that they should be arrested just for having extremely bad taste! OMG - WTH is wrong with these people! It is as equally distateful as decorating an 11 year old boy's bedroom in Harley Davidson logos. If they continue, none of these kids have a chance at a decent life! JMO

In light of TK photo's in gang wear and her ties to the MC just reinforces Const. Maitland's "undercurrent" statement for me. The Bandidos is where I came into this case and I am not sure that we can completely eliminate them from the equation yet (and I am a tad bit stubborn).

The police are still in the John Deere building:

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

The article does not say how many are on the case now. Interesting that they are making it known that they are still there.

I wonder if the child welfare people have issues with babies in gang clothing. Surely do-rags are a strangulation hazard.

Thinking back, Victoria Stafford wore a pink bandana. That's not an EOA style. Somehow that is reassuring.

[Summersolstice]

I cannot help but wonder about the significance of the number "8" in all this.

Eight men murdered, the trial resuming on April 8, a child who was eight years old, kidnapped and murdered.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,599507,00.html

And not to be forgotten, the Shedden massacre itself, on April 8, 2006. The men had spent a few days at the farm. Waiting for April 8?

[antiquegirl]

From the Alex Caine interview on The Hour:

The Shedden massacre has tentacles that reach out around the world. The eight murders were an ordered hit caused by The Bandidos, namely Jamie Flanz, stealing the HA's drugs. MC hitmen were on their way from Germany, and others were standing by in Chicago, ready to step in.

AC worked as an expert for Legal Aid in the London Bandidos trial, explaining the workings of MCs.

AC said the Bandidos in Canada are the Rock Machine. The Bandidos are not gone. Contrary to what was stated in the media, there are about 100 members currently active in Canada.

Season 6, Episode 38:

http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/

My opinions and questions:

The tentacles that reach out around the world could explain the 100 police officers working in the John Deere Forestry building in Woodstock.

Street gangs are the bottom echelon of the MC drug-dealing crime pyramid.

Could TLM/MR or even some low-level drug dealers outsmart 100 police officers? Would 100 police officers be brought in for a case of revenge and murder involving a teenager and a drug user?

Could the tentacles include a child porn ring with connections far from Ontario?

We know from the actions of the Rock Machine in Quebec that children are dispensable. An 11-year-old boy who died in RM shrapnel is an example of that. We know from EOA photos posted on the internet that babies wear do-rags and gang clothing. There is no moral code when it comes to children.

This takes us right back to the beginning: April 8, 2009. It was the day the Bandidos trial resumed, and Victoria Stafford was snatched from the streets of Woodstock. Victoria Stafford was snatched on the day the Stafford Line murders went back to court.

SS: I just wanted to say that this is an awesome post. You raise some thoughtful and interesting points and questions. Thank you.

JMO

[Summersolstice]

SS: I just wanted to say that this is an awesome post. You raise some thoughtful and interesting points and questions. Thank you.

JMO

You're welcome.

Author AC expressed some disappointment in one interview that the aspect of the drug theft from the HA was not fully explored in court. It does not surprise me. The CPs needed to prove who killed the eight men. They had enough to do so with the information that they did bring forward. Maybe that informaton was needed for another case?

Going off a little further down the path of a MC connection to Tori's kidnapping and murder...

There are some other things that the HAs might not have liked about the Bs in Canada. For example, they allowed JF, a Jew, to join. Remember that DW, a man with a neo-Nazi upbringing, was WK's right-hand man. He mysteriously disappeared to Winnipeg around the time of the murders and was never seen again. His father warned in a TV interview that the real murderers were still out there, and that his son should lay low. Did the father mean the HAs? Whatever became of DW?

Why would an apparently classic Aryan child be a target? An eye for an eye, perhaps? Revenge for JF? Someone who meant more to WK than JF's children? The age eight? Or did this child, who was eight years old, have a racial background that offended the HAs, if indeed this MC has any connection at all? One of the fairest, white-skinned children I know has blue eyes and a racial ancestry that would definitely offend neo-Nazis. The "offensive" traits disappear after a few generations.

Perhaps this is wild conjecture, but these are things that have crossed my mind.

[nonfictionrocks]

Yeah, right! Did you check out the groups RR belongs to? There are one or two supporting this guy who is in jail. I Googled him and he was busted this time on weapons charges, but has a long record for car theft. I'm sure there's more like this, but there are only so many hours in the day. Anyway, yeah, just a bunch of nice, clean-cut, middle-aged folks from the hood.

BTW, they're all having a shindig on November 21 in London. TK already RSVP'd that she'll be there. Who wants to crash the party? ;)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=166089235094

:dance:

I hate to ask again but where exactly is this shindig happening - bar, club, somebody's house?

[antiquegirl]

I hate to ask again but where exactly is this shindig happening - bar, club, somebody's house?

Sorry, NFR. What it says in the FB groups is "EastSides ( JR's )". The closest match I could find was this place:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=eastsides+hamilton+rd+london&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=eastsides&hnear=hamilton+rd+london&cid=15268079465072415845

Of course, I can't be sure that this is the place. It could also be at some guy called Jr.'s house.

ETA: Oops! The group also says, "Hamilton Rd., London", so this must be it.

[nonfictionrocks]

Sorry, NFR. What it says in the FB groups is "EastSides ( JR's )". The closest match I could find was this place:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=eastsides+hamilton+rd+london&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=eastsides&hnear=hamilton+rd+london&cid=15268079465072415845

Of course, I can't be sure that this is the place. It could also be at some guy called Jr.'s house.

That's probably it - it looks east of Adelaide to me. Thanks.

[nobodyzgirl]

That's probably it - it looks east of Adelaide to me. Thanks.

According to the site, they have a get together every three months, so we should mark our calendars for the next one. Guests are allowed to bring friends, so maybe we should tell them we are friends of TK! LOL

[Summersolstice]

Who's on the marquee?

http://hi-in.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7366892&id=760015593&op=1&view=all&subj=93086838327&aid=-1&oid=93086838327

[sillybilly]

I cannot help but wonder about the significance of the number "8" in all this.

Eight men murdered, the trial resuming on April 8, a child who was eight years old, kidnapped and murdered.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,599507,00.html

And not to be forgotten, the Shedden massacre itself, on April 8, 2006. The men had spent a few days at the farm. Waiting for April 8?

My memory is getting a bit foggy on some of the older info, but IIRC there was a pic of Victoria sporting a pink shirt with "81" on the front (numerical equivalent to the alphabetical "HA")

Lots of strange coinkydinks

[sillybilly]

Hey all ... am over in WS Chat ... Marc Klaas is due to arrive there in about 20 mins to discuss Human Trafficking. Hope some of you show up.

[antiquegirl]

Hey all ... am over in WS Chat ... Marc Klaas is due to arrive there in about 20 mins to discuss Human Trafficking. Hope some of you show up.

Never been there, SB. Can you post a link please? TIA

[sillybilly]

Never been there, SB. Can you post a link please? TIA

Oh AG ... am so sorry, but didn't see your reply until the chat was over. Tricia is going to post a transcript (not sure where), but hopefully in the new Human Trafficking thread.

[antiquegirl]

Oh AG ... am so sorry, but didn't see your reply until the chat was over. Tricia is going to post a transcript (not sure where), but hopefully in the new Human Trafficking thread.

It's okay, Billy. I actually managed to find it, but wasn't able to log on. It's possible that I don't have Java installed any more and that's why. If Tricia posts a transcript, maybe then you could give us a link. Was it interesting?

[sillybilly]

It's okay, Billy. I actually managed to find it, but wasn't able to log on. It's possible that I don't have Java installed any more and that's why. If Tricia posts a transcript, maybe then you could give us a link. Was it interesting?

Yes, very interesting. It was a closed chat, where we were able to ask questions submitted to the Mod. Tricia was there to introduce him, and turns out his visit was not elicited by WS, but he had specifically asked to be on WS chat. Marc is asking for Websleuthers to join in a letter writing campaign to the FCC in support of a proposal whereby Flying J truck stops (frequented by 2,000,000 truckers) would have a tv frequency strictly for missing kids nationwide. Apparently the big networks are opposed, but if enough pressure is applied, it may get the go-ahead.

Not sure any input from us Canucks would have any bearing, but to all the USA folks who are participating in this forum, please keep an eye on the WS Human Trafficking forum to see how you can help get this proposal pushed through.

I asked if Cdn and US HT taskforces are working together ... Marc said didn't know offhand, but they should be.

Couple of quick stats ... 200,000 to 300,000 US victims of domestic trafficking; 1.6 to 2.8 million runaways annually in the US (1/2 girls, avg age 12 to 14 y.o., and boys 11 to 13 y.o., lured into prostitution or porn within 48 hrs of hitting the streets).

Of interest where we can ALL be the eyes and ears for LE ... in the Craigslist "Erotic" ads, watch for ones using the terms "fresh meat" "young thing" "new to the business" which are the current buzzwords indicating exploitation of children. If you see these ads, report them to LE (and I would suggest cybertip.ca)

For more on HT, go to www.klaaskids.org > Newsletter > Human Trafficking.

[sillybilly]

...
The tentacles that reach out around the world could explain the 100 police officers working in the John Deere Forestry building in Woodstock. ...

Could the tentacles include a child porn ring with connections far from Ontario?
<respectfully snipped by sillybilly)

I have always believed it is very possible re connections to kiddie porn or child laundering Summer. Note that in the Mariam Makhniashvili case, LE has "taken the unprecedented step of assigning 60 detectives". Okay, I'm bad at math, but last I knew, 100 is greater than 60, so yes, I say something's in the wind.

[Summersolstice]

Yes, very interesting. It was a closed chat, where we were able to ask questions submitted to the Mod. Tricia was there to introduce him, and turns out his visit was not elicited by WS, but he had specifically asked to be on WS chat. Marc is asking for Websleuthers to join in a letter writing campaign to the FCC in support of a proposal whereby Flying J truck stops (frequented by 2,000,000 truckers) would have a tv frequency strictly for missing kids nationwide. Apparently the big networks are opposed, but if enough pressure is applied, it may get the go-ahead.

Not sure any input from us Canucks would have any bearing, but to all the USA folks who are participating in this forum, please keep an eye on the WS Human Trafficking forum to see how you can help get this proposal pushed through.

I asked if Cdn and US HT taskforces are working together ... Marc said didn't know offhand, but they should be.

Couple of quick stats ... 200,000 to 300,000 US victims of domestic trafficking; 1.6 to 2.8 million runaways annually in the US (1/2 girls, avg age 12 to 14 y.o., and boys 11 to 13 y.o., lured into prostitution or porn within 48 hrs of hitting the streets).

Of interest where we can ALL be the eyes and ears for LE ... in the Craigslist "Erotic" ads, watch for ones using the terms "fresh meat" "young thing" "new to the business" which are the current buzzwords indicating exploitation of children. If you see these ads, report them to LE (and I would suggest cybertip.ca)

For more on HT, go to www.klaaskids.org > Newsletter > Human Trafficking.

Fying J is in Canada, so that could be a useful thing up here, for sure, even though his issue is with American regulators. Wouldn't that help with Amber Alerts? Kids who run away often hitchhike. Kids taken for exploitation by adults could be taken far from home.

[Summersolstice]

All I can say is OMG! Middle aged EOAs? Warm and fuzzies? Nice quote from TinaK...surprised that she didn't write a book...oh, wait, that's just silly - change that to "dictate" a book... You would think after everything that has happened in her life that she would take her kid and run like h*ll someplace where nobody could find them...does she seriously think that raising her daughter in this kind of culture is safe for her? Are these gang affiliations the "undercurrents" that LE had referred to? And where can I get the book???

I know that I have had my Bandidos theories in the past - goodness knows there are enough bikers and gang members woven in and out of this case to make a blanket, but these days I really just think that TM ticked off TLM, who retaliated by being a little bit vindictive. There is no evidence that I have seen or heard that says TLM was pledging a gang, or that there was a conspiracy of more than the two charged.

I wonder if TLM did try to contact TM the day that Tori was abducted, but couldn't get a hold of her because her phone was in the pawn shop...perhaps TLM wanted to bring TM to her knees and recoup a few of the $$$ that TLM or her mother was owed?

TLM's plan to contact TM may have backfired when she couldn't get a hold of TLM before grandma reported Tori missing to LE... Perhaps Tori pitched a fit and they either drugged her or forcibly restrained her to keep her quiet, which resulted in her death?

Remember too TM's comments at the beginning (where is that dam* quote?) that things got out of hand and now the abductors didn't know how to release Tori?

Best laid plans of mice and men...

"The curious case of a mother's mystery benefactor

CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
April 29, 2009 at 4:39 AM EDT

Ms. McDonald told Ms. Mulligan in an interview aired last evening that she has revised her belief that a stranger took her daughter, and now agrees with friends who "feel somebody who we know has taken Tori and they have no idea, they were just being mildly vindictive, and it went so far out of control so fast they have no idea what to do now."

"Mildly vindictive," after a child has been gone for 21 days, seems a curiously mild way of framing things.""

Clipped from: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/National

And that link no longer works. Shame.

[sillybilly]

Concern for missing children does not stop at borders !! Tricia has made a post indicating that emails from outside the USA to the FCC in support of the Flying J proposal will be helpful too. Please everyone, no matter where you live, voice your support for missing kids and for Marc Klaas's efforts.

Go to www.klaasKids.org/pg-truckerTV.htm, read the proposal, and click the button at the bottom to express your concerns/outrage (in a polite but firm manner). Marc will forward all letters on to the FCC.

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-truckerTV.htm

Pass this info along to anyone you think might be helpful in this regard.

Thanks !!

[Summersolstice]

Where did the 100 police officer information come from originally, I wonder? This?

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/10878---she-was-an-angel-tori-s-mom-breaks-her-silence

[sillybilly]

I think many of us recall that statement by TM about the 100 officers, but I also believe it was contained in a much more recent news article (or was first-hand info from one of our members in the Woodstock community?). For the life of me, I can't find it anywhere online and wondering if someone else knows.

[nonfictionrocks]

I think many of us recall that statement by TM about the 100 officers, but I also believe it was contained in a much more recent news article (or was first-hand info from one of our members in the Woodstock community?). For the life of me, I can't find it anywhere online and wondering if someone else knows.

Summer and SB, I have been looking for over an hour and can't find a thing. Possible exaggeration on TM's part? I wonder if the same 5 cops are keeping an eye on her still? Anyone here out that way know how much in and out traffic is happening at the JD Building nowadays? I still question the need of using the building just for getting the evidence ready for the trials.

[nobodyzgirl]

Summer and SB, I have been looking for over an hour and can't find a thing. Possible exaggeration on TM's part? I wonder if the same 5 cops are keeping an eye on her still? Anyone here out that way know how much in and out traffic is happening at the JD Building nowadays? I still question the need of using the building just for getting the evidence ready for the trials.

I thought Tara had moved to Brantford, or was that just a rumour?

[crystalsleuth]

I thought Tara had moved to Brantford, or was that just a rumour?

She has said on FB that she lives there now. And JG works on a farm....

[dilbert]

I thought Tara had moved to Brantford, or was that just a rumour?

she did move to brantford and police are still using the JD building.

not sure if this was posted but this took place at the JD building.

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

i remember hearing from someone other than tara that there were approx. 100 officers and support staff working the case, possibly PC Maitland said it?

at the height of the investigation (before victoria was found) there would be upwards of 40-50 vehicles parked at the JD building on a weekday. i'm assuming many more out in the field. i don't think 100 officers was an exaggeration.

p.s. i live in woodstock

[nobodyzgirl]

she did move to brantford and police are still using the JD building.

not sure if this was posted but this took place at the JD building.

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

i remember hearing from someone other than tara that there were approx. 100 officers and support staff working the case, possibly PC Maitland said it?

at the height of the investigation (before victoria was found) there would be upwards of 40-50 vehicles parked at the JD building on a weekday. i'm assuming many more out in the field. i don't think 100 officers was an exaggeration.

p.s. i live in woodstock

I wonder if there will be other charges laid, if the police are still around and using the building.

I'm not surprised that there were so many LE involved in trying to find Tori.

Thanks Dilbert for the linkabout RS and his fundraising. He really has gone to amazing lengths to bring more awareness to child abduction.

[sillybilly]

Google snippet at 104.7 Heart FM, but the link/cache doesn't go to the article. Methinketh LE removeth stuff ;) :

"OPP Detective Inspector Bill Renton says the team investigating the case will continue to occupy the former John Deere Building on Devonshire Avenue for a ..."

(fill in the blanks folks ... bachelorette party, OMG soiree, few days, few decades, lack of other facilities that will put up with them ;) )

[dilbert]

Google snippet at 104.7 Heart FM, but the link/cache doesn't go to the article. Methinketh LE removeth stuff ;) :



(fill in the blanks folks ... bachelorette party, OMG soiree, few days, few decades, lack of other facilities that will put up with them ;) )

lol, it says; OPP Detective Inspector Bill Renton says the team investigating the case will continue to occupy the former John Deere Building on Devonshire Avenue for a while. He says they're still processing evidence and preparing for court.

[nonfictionrocks]

she did move to brantford and police are still using the JD building.

not sure if this was posted but this took place at the JD building.

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2177907

i remember hearing from someone other than tara that there were approx. 100 officers and support staff working the case, possibly PC Maitland said it?

at the height of the investigation (before victoria was found) there would be upwards of 40-50 vehicles parked at the JD building on a weekday. i'm assuming many more out in the field. i don't think 100 officers was an exaggeration.

p.s. i live in woodstock

Thanks dilbert. Even if there were half the amount of vehicles parked there it would seem like a lot to me. Are there still many rumours floating around or has the story died down? The fact that nothing is leaking out leads me to one of two things. One, that there is nothing more to this, it is what it is but I don't think that this is really the case. The other is, there is a great deal going on and fear might be keeping anybody new from coming forward or perhaps they have come forward and we have not heard officially.

We talked earlier about TLM and her possible initation into the EOA crew but what if she was already in the gang. What if she would be the only one that TS would know and probably go with easily (other than maybe TK but she might stand out like a sore thumb considering her profile).

I heard many months ago from a friend of my husband's and another totally unrelated source that TM and JG owed over $10,000 in drug debts. This was right after the arrests of TLM and MR and a long time before they found the body. We heard that TM was at the nursing home that day by TM herself but we also heard here that she was trying to get money off of Gramps that day as well.

The EOA gang and their possible ties have only come up recently but I just can't come up with another reason, besides their involvement, as to why the police still have a strong force working on this - we have not heard mention of the car seat for months now. I have tried to search arrests involving members of this gang and not many have been arrested or their arrests are not being reported to and published by the media. Maybe they just ain't as bad as the image they try to project or they are smuggly organizing a party thinking that they have gotten away with murder. JMO

I am a strong believer that there are more arrests to come and I think the information will come from MR. Anyone recall when he will appear in court again?

BTW - Gotta add that I am greatly amused by an image of JG working on a farm! LOL

[ChaChaCha]

Thanks dilbert. Even if there were half the amount of vehicles parked there it would seem like a lot to me. Are there still many rumours floating around or has the story died down? The fact that nothing is leaking out leads me to one of two things. One, that there is nothing more to this, it is what it is but I don't think that this is really the case. The other is, there is a great deal going on and fear might be keeping anybody new from coming forward or perhaps they have come forward and we have not heard officially.

We talked earlier about TLM and her possible initation into the EOA crew but what if she was already in the gang. What if she would be the only one that TS would know and probably go with easily (other than maybe TK but she might stand out like a sore thumb considering her profile).

I heard many months ago from a friend of my husband's and another totally unrelated source that TM and JG owed over $10,000 in drug debts. This was right after the arrests of TLM and MR and a long time before they found the body. We heard that TM was at the nursing home that day by TM herself but we also heard here that she was trying to get money off of Gramps that day as well.

The EOA gang and their possible ties have only come up recently but I just can't come up with another reason, besides their involvement, as to why the police still have a strong force working on this - we have not heard mention of the car seat for months now. I have tried to search arrests involving members of this gang and not many have been arrested or their arrests are not being reported to and published by the media. Maybe they just ain't as bad as the image they try to project or they are smuggly organizing a party thinking that they have gotten away with murder. JMO

I am a strong believer that there are more arrests to come and I think the information will come from MR. Anyone recall when he will appear in court again?

BTW - Gotta add that I am greatly amused by an image of JG working on a farm! LOL


Yer crackin me up again NFR! It must be either a magic mushroom farm or an oxyfarm... Let's just say to all the MC dudes out there that if JG invites you to his barn DON'T GO!!!!

Perhaps it wasn't TLM that TM ticked off = maybe it was TK and her new gang of baby-toting bandits...??? Sounds from TK's recent book review that she is the type who believes in retaliation and repurcussions...

I think MR rolled on the whole bunch and spilled every bean he ever had... I would bet JG"S farm that there is a plea bargain in the works, and the whole Cleaver gang is going down...

The undercurrents in this case are more like an undertow, and the continued work by LE makes me wonder if perhaps the London detention centre is going to have a full house in a little while - all the more reason to move MR now before the place gets crowded.

Gosh, I kinda sound a bit like the fuzzy brown-haired chick with the glasses on Nancy Grace... maybe I can be one her writers?

[nonfictionrocks]

Yer crackin me up again NFR! It must be either a magic mushroom farm or an oxyfarm... Let's just say to all the MC dudes out there that if JG invites you to his barn DON'T GO!!!!

Perhaps it wasn't TLM that TM ticked off = maybe it was TK and her new gang of baby-toting bandits...??? Sounds from TK's recent book review that she is the type who believes in retaliation and repurcussions...

I think MR rolled on the whole bunch and spilled every bean he ever had... I would bet JG"S farm that there is a plea bargain in the works, and the whole Cleaver gang is going down...

The undercurrents in this case are more like an undertow, and the continued work by LE makes me wonder if perhaps the London detention centre is going to have a full house in a little while - all the more reason to move MR now before the place gets crowded.

Gosh, I kinda sound a bit like the fuzzy brown-haired chick with the glasses on Nancy Grace... maybe I can be one her writers?

Cha You Rock!

[dilbert]

Are there still many rumours floating around or has the story died down?

no one that i know here in woodstock talks about it. most people are satisfied with the two that are sitting in jail i guess.
the only time it's in the papers is when there is a court appearance or when it has to do with RS and child find.

I am a strong believer that there are more arrests to come and I think the information will come from MR. Anyone recall when he will appear in court again?

i agree. i think if any new information is learned, it will come from MR.

his next appearance is Dec. 18th ( December 4, 2009 - Pretrial Discussion Continues) and TLM's next appearance is Nov. 27th.

[Summersolstice]

Yer crackin me up again NFR! It must be either a magic mushroom farm or an oxyfarm... Let's just say to all the MC dudes out there that if JG invites you to his barn DON'T GO!!!!

Perhaps it wasn't TLM that TM ticked off = maybe it was TK and her new gang of baby-toting bandits...??? Sounds from TK's recent book review that she is the type who believes in retaliation and repurcussions...

I think MR rolled on the whole bunch and spilled every bean he ever had... I would bet JG"S farm that there is a plea bargain in the works, and the whole Cleaver gang is going down...

The undercurrents in this case are more like an undertow, and the continued work by LE makes me wonder if perhaps the London detention centre is going to have a full house in a little while - all the more reason to move MR now before the place gets crowded.

Gosh, I kinda sound a bit like the fuzzy brown-haired chick with the glasses on Nancy Grace... maybe I can be one her writers?

Oh, I'm sure JG is harvesting something perfectly legit, like catnip. And nothing ever goes on in barns any more, not in Iona, or even Port Coquitlam.

[ChaChaCha]

Cha You Rock!

That, and I am an AMAZING PARENT!!!

By the way, Big Hooters wants to know if the road trip is still on for the weekend - if so I will need to gas her up and see if I can get the locks fixed before we go... and peel off the shiny silver vinyl business name stickers from the rear window - I don't want to be conspicuous nor do I want to be locked out when being chased down by a crowd of middle-aged baby-toting gang members so a bit of prep will be necessary. I thought we might stop off at Chapters to pick up a half-dozen or so copies of the new book that TD recommended... at least if it's not an interesting read we can throw them at our pursuers so long as they are hardcovers and not paperbacks. I am curious to see the pictures in the book anyways...

I need to go to bed - I am coming down with the flu and it's making me loopy.

[sillybilly]

lol, it says;

Wow, thanks for that dilbert !! Your googler must be bigger and better than my googler.

[antiquegirl]

[QUOTE]
OPP Detective Inspector Bill Renton says the team investigating the case will continue to occupy the former John Deere Building on Devonshire Avenue for a while. He says they're still processing evidence and preparing for court.

When did Renton say this? Was it recently? Because if so, that's pretty weird. Why would they still be processing evidence six months after the arrests. If LE had enough evidence to charge these two people six months ago, they should have had all they needed then ... or shortly after. If, as so many seem to think, it's a clear-cut case of two sick creeps abducting and killing a child for their perverted pleasure, what could possibly take this long? A lot of people were so sure there was photographic evidence of the crime. That should be cut and dried evidence available ages ago and enough to convict right there. Even if there were DNA evidence found, the lab results should be in by now (and besides, that would also be out of LE's hands).

As far as I can tell, the only people preparing for court now should be the Crown and the defense attorneys. I can see how that would take many months. But LE still working on evidence for all this time? And so many that they need a separate building? It makes no sense to me if there were only two people involved and they're already behind bars.

Am I missing something here? I'm not a lawyer or LE, so I could be off base, but it sounds very unusual.

JMO

[Summersolstice]

[quote=dilbert;4455482]


When did Renton say this? Was it recently? Because if so, that's pretty weird. Why would they still be processing evidence six months after the arrests. If LE had enough evidence to charge these two people six months ago, they should have had all they needed then ... or shortly after. If, as so many seem to think, it's a clear-cut case of two sick creeps abducting and killing a child for their perverted pleasure, what could possibly take this long? A lot of people were so sure there was photographic evidence of the crime. That should be cut and dried evidence available ages ago and enough to convict right there. Even if there were DNA evidence found, the lab results should be in by now (and besides, that would also be out of LE's hands).

As far as I can tell, the only people preparing for court now should be the Crown and the defense attorneys. I can see how that would take many months. But LE still working on evidence for all this time? And so many that they need a separate building? It makes no sense to me if there were only two people involved and they're already behind bars.

Am I missing something here? I'm not a lawyer or LE, so I could be off base, but it's sounds very unusual.

JMO

Tentacles. Remember the oxy ring that was busted a few months ago? And how about that pawn shop owner who was arrested in Woodstock? The shop was on the street that houses the pizza joint and methadone clinic, just down the way from Good Time Charlie's.

One thing leads to another. Even the tentacles have tentacles. Some of the tentacles are very long. Some of the tentacles are more well-organized than others. MO.

[dilbert]

[quote=dilbert;4455482]


When did Renton say this? Was it recently? Because if so, that's pretty weird. Why would they still be processing evidence six months after the arrests. If LE had enough evidence to charge these two people six months ago, they should have had all they needed then ... or shortly after. If, as so many seem to think, it's a clear-cut case of two sick creeps abducting and killing a child for their perverted pleasure, what could possibly take this long? A lot of people were so sure there was photographic evidence of the crime. That should be cut and dried evidence available ages ago and enough to convict right there. Even if there were DNA evidence found, the lab results should be in by now (and besides, that would also be out of LE's hands).

As far as I can tell, the only people preparing for court now should be the Crown and the defense attorneys. I can see how that would take many months. But LE still working on evidence for all this time? And so many that they need a separate building? It makes no sense to me if there were only two people involved and they're already behind bars.

Am I missing something here? I'm not a lawyer or LE, so I could be off base, but it's sounds very unusual.

JMO

http://www.1047.ca/news.php

look under news for nov 13th, police make donation to child find. last paragraph.

:)

[Summersolstice]

More on "Alex Caine":

http://www.hour.ca/news/babylonpq.aspx?iIDArticle=18731

It is that complicated. People keep disappearing.

Check it out here:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=cPzgc8vQW2sC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=alex+caine+%2B+tina+kellestine&source=bl&ots=AsijrzqC0F&sig=NyUcvJTbInG6lHXOzM0FzZxl3VI&hl=en&ei=o3gFS8GbLYKMMoyv0MIK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[nobodyzgirl]

More on "Alex Caine":

http://www.hour.ca/news/babylonpq.aspx?iIDArticle=18731

It is that complicated. People keep disappearing.

Check it out here:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=cPzgc8vQW2sC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=alex+caine+%2B+tina+kellestine&source=bl&ots=AsijrzqC0F&sig=NyUcvJTbInG6lHXOzM0FzZxl3VI&hl=en&ei=o3gFS8GbLYKMMoyv0MIK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Looks like he may be able to write a sequel to this story, as it's just been mentioned that WK is appealing his convictions...so now 5 of the 6 have appealed, I'm sure it won't be long for the last one to appeal...and so the story continues...

[Summersolstice]

Looks like he may be able to write a sequel to this story, as it's just been mentioned that WK is appealing his convictions...so now 5 of the 6 have appealed, I'm sure it won't be long for the last one to appeal...and so the story continues...

Thanks. I looked up that story:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hsKgxC_sBCQlzC28q4PgybwDzJ0g

I wonder if that includes the one that was mown into the grass at his farm, in a photo posted on the internet. Like so many things, the link is gone.

[nonfictionrocks]

That, and I am an AMAZING PARENT!!!

By the way, Big Hooters wants to know if the road trip is still on for the weekend - if so I will need to gas her up and see if I can get the locks fixed before we go... and peel off the shiny silver vinyl business name stickers from the rear window - I don't want to be conspicuous nor do I want to be locked out when being chased down by a crowd of middle-aged baby-toting gang members so a bit of prep will be necessary. I thought we might stop off at Chapters to pick up a half-dozen or so copies of the new book that TD recommended... at least if it's not an interesting read we can throw them at our pursuers so long as they are hardcovers and not paperbacks. I am curious to see the pictures in the book anyways...

I need to go to bed - I am coming down with the flu and it's making me loopy.

I hope you are feeling better today!

I added that book to my Wish List.

Is the EOA party still on at Eastside's - how many have RSVP'd so far? I would hate to go all the way out there and no one shows up but I guess there's always GTC or that interesting Pizza joint - LOL