View Full Version : MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #5
hoppyfrog
10-29-2009, 10:12 PM
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human
10-29-2009, 10:19 PM
I agree with Hippie Chick. It sounds like her parents probably were not parents. Drugs, for instance. They could have left her in her crib with diapers that were never changed for days or whatever. She probably did not get attachment or bonding which means that she does not look at human beings as humans, they are just objects. I don't know if attachment disorder can be fixed. I know people try, but I don't know what the results are. AB didn't ask to be born into that family, but unfortunately, the rest of us have to be protected from her. Parents make mistakes, but I am afraid in this case, it's probably a lot more than mistakes. Infants need lots of things from parents, and if they don't get it, it stunts their brain for life. We need to do more for children, but people are so concerned about "rights". So this is what we get for the "freedom" that we have. "Freedom" sometimes rears it's ugly head, doesn't it?
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 10:33 PM
to vjlaw I didn't mean old like dead with old age I am kicken 50 in the butt so I should know I just mean they have raised their family (like myself) and they probably didn't want to raise another I know I don't but if I had to because my daughter was a deadbeat I would thank God thats not the case. I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 10:38 PM
I agree with Hippie Chick. It sounds like her parents probably were not parents. Drugs, for instance. They could have left her in her crib with diapers that were never changed for days or whatever. She probably did not get attachment or bonding which means that she does not look at human beings as humans, they are just objects. I don't know if attachment disorder can be fixed. I know people try, but I don't know what the results are. AB didn't ask to be born into that family, but unfortunately, the rest of us have to be protected from her. Parents make mistakes, but I am afraid in this case, it's probably a lot more than mistakes. Infants need lots of things from parents, and if they don't get it, it stunts their brain for life. We need to do more for children, but people are so concerned about "rights". So this is what we get for the "freedom" that we have. "Freedom" sometimes rears it's ugly head, doesn't it?
When you think in the perspective of 3 years old your pretty much molded thats scary considering alot of little kids and the lives they live. I think we may see many more AB's in the years to come. These parents need to wake up if you don't want children and will not be responsible enough to raise them correctly then don't have them. Its that simple and if the welfare system would quit handing out to them I think alot of it would stop, IMO
akashana
10-29-2009, 10:39 PM
I bet the grandparents did their best, but they had AB, and then twin boys, and a younger girl . . . can't even imagine keeping them all in line and straight. I really feel bad for thinking gpa and gma should have done more, sooner. Obviously they were overwhelmed.
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 10:42 PM
I bet the grandparents did their best, but they had AB, and then twin boys, and a younger girl . . . can't even imagine keeping them all in line and straight. I really feel bad for thinking gpa and gma should have done more, sooner. Obviously they were overwhelmed.
I agree I feel for them and can't imagine how terrible they feel. I am sure they are thinking if they had done things sooner but who knows it probably wouldn't have made a difference. I think she has been well on her way to this for years. Sad for all involved and especially the family of an innocent beautiful child.
vjlaw
10-29-2009, 10:46 PM
to vjlaw I didn't mean old like dead with old age I am kicken 50 in the butt so I should know I just mean they have raised their family (like myself) and they probably didn't want to raise another I know I don't but if I had to because my daughter was a deadbeat I would thank God thats not the case. I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.
I was just kidding you. I just thought maybe Gm may have felt she failed with the daughter so thought maybe she could do better with the granddaughter. Just another thought.
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 11:06 PM
I was just kidding you. I just thought maybe Gm may have felt she failed with the daughter so thought maybe she could do better with the granddaughter. Just another thought.
Yes. thats a thought I know there are things I wish I had done differently but she turned out well, college, deans list, married now expecting her first child calls me everyday to say she loves me so I guess I done ok.
vjlaw
10-29-2009, 11:12 PM
Yes. thats a thought I know there are things I wish I had done differently but she turned out well, college, deans list, married now expecting her first child calls me everyday to say she loves me so I guess I done ok.
If both of the girl's parents refuse to be responsible for the kids, someone has to take them. I just think the damage was already done before the gm got custody of the kids. She is going to have her hands full with the other kids especially herself having to live with what happened. I just can't imagine what state she must be in.
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 11:18 PM
If both of the girl's parents refuse to be responsible for the kids, someone has to take them. I just think the damage was already done before the gm got custody of the kids. She is going to have her hands full with the other kids especially herself having to live with what happened. I just can't imagine what state she must be in.
I agree with you I wouldn't want to walk one inch in her shoes. What age was AB when she went to live with GP?
Jules71
10-29-2009, 11:22 PM
I agree with you I wouldn't want to walk one inch in her shoes. What age was AB when she went to live with GP?
She was 11 when GP's got custody. I believe she was probably there before that.
ynotdivein
10-29-2009, 11:24 PM
Hi again folks. Thank you for the warm welcome, and thank you again for the information and the personal experiences many of you have shared.
I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier to take part in the conversation about teen girls who suddenly become angry/sad/withdrawn/unreachable. When I look back at myself from ages 13-17, I am astounded that I made it through alive and with any family relationships intact. I never cut, but for reasons I couldn't explain even to myself at the time--let alone to my mom or Some Therapist (insert patented infuriating teen smirk plus Silent Treatment here)--I hurt myself & those who loved me, hung with the wrong crowd, and made bad choices in every way possible. Two connects to this case: the whole time I was bottoming out emotionally, I maintained straight A's... and I was the oldest/caretaker child who resented the cards I'd been dealt. If we had had "Twitter" in those days, I can't imagine what darkness I'd have posted. Reading my own diaries from those years now is like reading someone else's writings.
If I had to say what made the difference, what pushed me around the corner, it was the realization that I was a really good teacher. That I could help someone else. The earlier poster (I'm sorry not to remember who but you are a genius) who is taking her daughter's friend out for girls' days, and encouraging her desire to work with animals--that's it. Direct all that energy outward and into the realization that she can do GOOD in this world. Crimecurious, when you see your daughter finding interests that connect her to others, nurture them.
I don't know if this is what the alleged perp was missing, if it could have prevented this horror (she worked with horses, right?). If we knew all the answers, we probably wouldn't all be here trying to sort this out together would we.
Sorry for the introspection. As a factual side note, the juveniles charged in the homecoming dance rape out here near me had a court appearance today. They were in bulletproof vests. And because they are being charged as adults, all of their names (though none of their pictures) were in the papers today.
Peace, my new friends.
vjlaw
10-29-2009, 11:27 PM
I agree with you I wouldn't want to walk one inch in her shoes. What age was AB when she went to live with GP?
I'm not sure if that has been figured out yet. I think posters here came up with some records that took the grandparents came from CA. So we may not know the answer to that.
I followed some of the comments from the video link that has been since deleted because it violates TOS. It appears she created another account to comment on her own account. It was after some rude public comments. I suspect she has multiple s/n's on all of the typical social sites. At 13 she was quite savy in technology. I suspect that she was only slightly sadistic in 2007, but well on her way :( Is that not the year the gps also got custody of the half-sister? The same half-sister whose friend was murdered?
.
Jules71
10-29-2009, 11:31 PM
Ynot,
I am not familiar with that case, although I just read one headline and that is TERRIBLE! Sick. What is wrong with people? Very sad. Wish I could do so much more to help.
She was 11 when GP's got custody. I believe she was probably there before that.
I think she was there before, too. I frankly don't see a disadvantaged child at all. From what I have seen, they had all of the toys, a pool, a nice home.
Jules71
10-29-2009, 11:32 PM
I followed some of the comments from the video link that has been since deleted because it violates TOS. It appears she created another account to comment on her own account. It was after some rude public comments. I suspect she has multiple s/n's on all of the typical social sites. At 13 she was quite savy in technology. I suspect that she was only slightly sadistic in 2007, but well on her way :( Is that not the year the gps also got custody of the half-sister? The same half-sister whose friend was murdered?
.
YES! They did get custody of the 6 yo in 2007. And yes, I do believe that was Elizabeth's friend. Hmmmm.
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 11:35 PM
I think she was there before, too. I frankly don't see a disadvantaged child at all. From what I have seen, they had all of the toys, a pool, a nice home.
But POS parents and witnessed quite a bit I am sure, nothing takes the place of good parents IMO
I think she was there before, too. I frankly don't see a disadvantaged child at all. From what I have seen, they had all of the toys, a pool, a nice home.
I watched the YouTube videos and I thought the same thing. They had a pool and it looks like they even had horses. I would have loved to live in a place like that when I was a kid, yet for AB something was missing. I wonder how close she was to her mom.
ynotdivein
10-29-2009, 11:50 PM
Ynot,
I am not familiar with that case, although I just read one headline and that is TERRIBLE! Sick. What is wrong with people? Very sad. Wish I could do so much more to help.
Hey Jules,
There's an article at the online SF Chronicle here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/29/BALE1ACE6J.DTL&tsp=1
This is why I said I am heartsick. *sigh* :banghead:
Hippy Chick
10-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Hi again folks. Thank you for the warm welcome, and thank you again for the information and the personal experiences many of you have shared.
I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier to take part in the conversation about teen girls who suddenly become angry/sad/withdrawn/unreachable. When I look back at myself from ages 13-17, I am astounded that I made it through alive and with any family relationships intact. I never cut, but for reasons I couldn't explain even to myself at the time--let alone to my mom or Some Therapist (insert patented infuriating teen smirk plus Silent Treatment here)--I hurt myself & those who loved me, hung with the wrong crowd, and made bad choices in every way possible. Two connects to this case: the whole time I was bottoming out emotionally, I maintained straight A's... and I was the oldest/caretaker child who resented the cards I'd been dealt. If we had had "Twitter" in those days, I can't imagine what darkness I'd have posted. Reading my own diaries from those years now is like reading someone else's writings.
If I had to say what made the difference, what pushed me around the corner, it was the realization that I was a really good teacher. That I could help someone else. The earlier poster (I'm sorry not to remember who but you are a genius) who is taking her daughter's friend out for girls' days, and encouraging her desire to work with animals--that's it. Direct all that energy outward and into the realization that she can do GOOD in this world. Crimecurious, when you see your daughter finding interests that connect her to others, nurture them.
I don't know if this is what the alleged perp was missing, if it could have prevented this horror (she worked with horses, right?). If we knew all the answers, we probably wouldn't all be here trying to sort this out together would we.
Sorry for the introspection. As a factual side note, the juveniles charged in the homecoming dance rape out here near me had a court appearance today. They were in bulletproof vests. And because they are being charged as adults, all of their names (though none of their pictures) were in the papers today.
Peace, my new friends.
Welcome and thanks for your post. I was raised in Central Missouri in the carefree 70's. I did make some bad choices @ times(smoka the weed and drinkin the spirts @ the river on Saturday night but we weren't mean to anyone and no one was ever mean to us. I really do think times have changed(I never thought that statement would come out of my mouth) after hearing my parents (God Love them) say that a million times before. I think kids are just meaner now why I really don't know but I think it goes back to bad parenting. If I had stood by and watched someone get raped and not helped them my dad would have had my butt in a big sling, He was a great father I loved him but also had that little fear of him in the back of my mind. I don't think kids have anyone to fear anymore. And Peace back at you.
akashana
10-30-2009, 12:12 AM
Welcome and thanks for your post. I was raised in Central Missouri in the carefree 70's. I did make some bad choices @ times(smoka the weed and drinkin the spirts @ the river on Saturday night but we weren't mean to anyone and no one was ever mean to us. I really do think times have changed(I never thought that statement would come out of my mouth) after hearing my parents (God Love them) say that a million times before. I think kids are just meaner now why I really don't know but I think it goes back to bad parenting. If I had stood by and watched someone get raped and helped them my dad would have had my butt in a big sling, He was a great father I loved him but also had that little fear of him in the back of my mind. I don't think kids have anyone to fear anymore. And Peace back at you.
There is nothing that was the same; ITA with you. Back in the day, 70s, early 80s. We used to go to "bickens," outdoor parties in the country with plenty of booze and pot and quaaludes, even. But there was no animosity ever, at all. If somebody crashed out, we took care of them. We took care of our own. And we were doing this outrageous partying on our own, we policed ourselves. If a parent got involved, it was because we had slipped up, and we were scared and cooperative. We kept it real.
CHICANA
10-30-2009, 12:26 AM
I think she was there before, too. I frankly don't see a disadvantaged child at all. From what I have seen, they had all of the toys, a pool, a nice home.
Any idea if she spent time in foster care prior to GM getting custody ?
Stella5
10-30-2009, 12:38 AM
First post in this topic, but i've been following all the previous threads... but did anyone who looked at the youtube account notice she has killing people & cutting listed as her hobbies? Sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't notice it; but think it's worth noting.
Hippy Chick
10-30-2009, 12:43 AM
There is nothing that was the same; ITA with you. Back in the day, 70s, early 80s. We used to go to "bickens," outdoor parties in the country with plenty of booze and pot and quaaludes, even. But there was no animosity ever, at all. If somebody crashed out, we took care of them. We took care of our own. And we were doing this outrageous partying on our own, we policed ourselves. If a parent got involved, it was because we had slipped up, and we were scared and cooperative. We kept it real.
Yes, and if a parent had to get invoved it usually wasen't good for us. But, really we had a great time and yes we took care of each other and even people that would show up we didn't even know. The worse thing we ever did was put someone that was passed outs hand in warm h20 to see if they would pee their pants. Its not true they don't just a rumor but it was fun anyway
CHICANA
10-30-2009, 12:46 AM
Welcome and thanks for your post. I was raised in Central Missouri in the carefree 70's. I did make some bad choices @ times(smoka the weed and drinkin the spirts @ the river on Saturday night but we weren't mean to anyone and no one was ever mean to us. I really do think times have changed(I never thought that statement would come out of my mouth) after hearing my parents (God Love them) say that a million times before. I think kids are just meaner now why I really don't know but I think it goes back to bad parenting. If I had stood by and watched someone get raped and not helped them my dad would have had my butt in a big sling, He was a great father I loved him but also had that little fear of him in the back of my mind. I don't think kids have anyone to fear anymore. And Peace back at you.
I was afraid of my mom too. I remember getting chased with a switch or belt and if I didn't hold still, I'd get swatted on the legs as well as the butt. It only happened a few times but boy are they remembered. If I thought about doing something bad, I knew what the consequences were and it wasn't a nice 'counselor' to discuss whatever feelings lead to my bad behavior. I called my mom a bad name once and she slapped me in the face. I thought it was child abuse, looking back I deserved it.
Kids don't suffer the consequences of their actions anymore. The parents do.
If my mom slapped me today, they would have taken me and any other kids in the house, put us in foster homes, given us some meds to control our behavior so that we'd never learn how to control it ourselves and sent our mom the bill in the form of child support.
I'd like the village to keep an eye out for my children, but I want to raise them myself.
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 12:49 AM
First post in this topic, but i've been following all the previous threads... but did anyone who looked at the youtube account notice she has killing people & cutting listed as her hobbies? Sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't notice it; but think it's worth noting.
yes and I agree because unless she changed her hobbies (which she could of at any time) she wrote it a year ago. From what I viewed of her today she looked disturbed for a while. It creeped me out hearing her voice on there and on the karaoke site. Not sure why because I have heard other "killers" on TV shows etc in interviews. In the flip video she even told one of the boys to show something painful.
Hippy Chick
10-30-2009, 01:07 AM
I have to go to bed guys work will come early in the am been nice chatting with you all and will see you all tomorrow night.....
winterrose
10-30-2009, 01:53 AM
I just watched three videos the 15 yo did two years ago taping her brothers.What has just happened,didn't happen overnight.I've listened and I don't understand how the school system or any family members didn't see this coming.It was obvious there was a problem.
This is more than neglect,more than being raised by grandparents,children are in foster homes and single parent homes and do not become like this.This is different.I hope the videos and if there's anymore will be used in court,because Elizabeth is the victim,her family and the 15 yo's siblings are the victims.The legal system needs to be more concerned with victims,not who killed them.
People make excuses for why a person has done something,because thier minds can't comprehend why.The fact is,with some people there are no excuses,it has nothing to do with age or family history.I hope she's tried as an adult and people will look past the age.I hope they'll look at what happened to Elizabeth more than why this 15 yo did what she did to an innocent child.
winterrose
10-30-2009, 01:57 AM
And how did she get on her myspace today?Are they actually letting her go on the computer?
CementPond
10-30-2009, 02:06 AM
Some are speculating that her lawyer and/or police have been accessing it. Her twitter messages have also been deleted. Who knows for sure though who's accessing it.
And how did she get on her myspace today?Are they actually letting her go on the computer?
lawlady84
10-30-2009, 02:17 AM
Some are speculating that her lawyer and/or police have been accessing it. Her twitter messages have also been deleted. Who knows for sure though who's accessing it.
If I were her defense lawyer, as SOON as she was arrested (if she brought LE to the body), I would have made ALL of her social networking sites private - and have given name/password to LE. I would have given LE a copy of her entire computer, and permission for all networking sites, saved copies of everything, and deleted EVERYTHING (once LE gave the go-ahead).
As a defendant, LE deserves to see everything you've posted. But for "friends" to post "AB, you did it" days later ... that's "rumor." That's different even than a friend posting, "you weren't in school, are you okay? did you do it?" ... Saying "you did it" implies that the friend KNEW. KWIM?
Night all, thanks for the great updates. :)
Good Lord, just listening to her laugh when her brother hurts himself on that video (and only after she harasses him until he does hurt himself) is CREEPY. And that's when she was 13?!
This girl is demented. It was only a matter of time.
I really think the girl has so much stuff out there online that it would be nearly impossible to get rid of it all before people found it.
Her lawyer's team has to be scrambling to keep up with what people are finding online about her.
DollyPardonMe
10-30-2009, 03:27 AM
OMG!! Does anyone know that much about My Space?? When a profile is set to private it will have some people on the bottom of the page that says:
People you may know
Here are some people we think you may know based on common friends.
Then it will have 3 peoples profiles listed which makes you think they are friends with the person who's profile is private..
I'd appreciate ANY input!!
STEADFAST
10-30-2009, 03:47 AM
OMG!! Does anyone know that much about My Space?? When a profile is set to private it will have some people on the bottom of the page that says:
People you may know
Here are some people we think you may know based on common friends.
Then it will have 3 peoples profiles listed which makes you think they are friends with the person who's profile is private..
I'd appreciate ANY input!!
I think what it says when you go to a private myspace page is "Here are some public profiles you might find interesting." That's different than you might be friends with these people. I've always considered that they're random, but maybe they have some similarity to the person whose myspace is private.
Sassygerl
10-30-2009, 05:55 AM
I have found that on Facebook if you search for someone they will then at any time pop up as someone "you might know". Maybe that is the case?
DollyPardonMe
10-30-2009, 06:51 AM
I think what it says when you go to a private myspace page is "Here are some public profiles you might find interesting." That's different than you might be friends with these people. I've always considered that they're random, but maybe they have some similarity to the person whose myspace is private.
Thanks...I went to AB's MySpace last night (took me long time to sleuth that info) LOL and my sons best friend came up as one of the three on the bottom. But his friend is 34 and lives in the Pacific Northwest so you can be sure Im going to be calling my son today and asking a whole lot of questions!!
I am reminded of Edwin Hall.
DollyPardonMe
10-30-2009, 07:24 AM
Thanks...I went to AB's MySpace last night (took me long time to sleuth that info) LOL and my sons best friend came up as one of the three on the bottom. But his friend is 34 and lives in the Pacific Northwest so you can be sure Im going to be calling my son today and asking a whole lot of questions!!
OK, nevermind..I HATE MySpace..Everytime you go in there they post a different set of three and everytime it's a different set of 3 people and at least one that you know..A Come on, I'm sure for you to become friends with someone..I feel like such a fool..SORRY!
Morning
Just checked out the you tubes and man the kids seemed to have a lot of extras. Pool, pooltable, workout equipment, techno stuff...
Does anyone know the ages of the GPs?
Listening to AB she sounds aggressive, bossy and dominating!
MCDRAW
10-30-2009, 07:48 AM
This is my theory of why children are getting meaner. Yes, there are some bad parents. But I see this as more of a society thing. Years ago, parents raised their children the way that they thought they should with punishments and consequences. Then "experts" came out saying we should only say positive things to our children. Never tell them they are wrong. Then the government steps in and starts telling us how we can discipline our children. We now have a generation of kids that no longer feel they do any wrong, everything is owed to them because it is all about them, and they certainly are not afraid of their parents. So while some of it is just bad parenting, some of it is bad teaching, IMO. We somehow have failed to teach our children how to cope in the real world.
Was sitting here thinking about the youtubes and when I watched the first one I thouht ok sibs joking around but then as I continued to watch the others she is diffently on edge. She was trying too hard to get her bothers to hurt themselves. I wonder if she was a handful for the GPs? Did she abuse them? Maybe they could not control her? I worry the boys may have been influenced by her?
mydailyopinions
10-30-2009, 08:06 AM
This is my theory of why children are getting meaner. Yes, there are some bad parents. But I see this as more of a society thing. Years ago, parents raised their children the way that they thought they should with punishments and consequences. Then "experts" came out saying we should only say positive things to our children. Never tell them they are wrong. Then the government steps in and starts telling us how we can discipline our children. We now have a generation of kids that no longer feel they do any wrong, everything is owed to them because it is all about them, and they certainly are not afraid of their parents. So while some of it is just bad parenting, some of it is bad teaching, IMO. We somehow have failed to teach our children how to cope in the real world.
This is what is wrong with our children..:banghead:
The book she liked Impulse
The main characters has tried to commit suicide, and each has suffered abuse (sexual, emotional and physical). One character murdered his abuser as a child, another had sex with a teacher, and the third watched her mentally ill mother die. Plus, there's cutting, abortion, bi-polar disorder, over-achieving, and a character who thinks he's gay. In the end, one of the protagonists dies a rather violent death
Can I post a site about AB's name?
SereneOne
10-30-2009, 08:34 AM
Hello all, I am new to Websleuths and have been following the news about Elizabeth Olten as well as others you have discussed. There are obviously some super sleuths here! On the Olten case, am I allowed to post a screen name and the name of the site where it is used by the person the blogosphere says is the suspect? Thanks for the guidance.
realjoy
10-30-2009, 09:10 AM
SereneOne and sdw...we are not allowed to post any links to any of her personal sites or sites that have her name because she is a minor.
sdw - the site you posted does have her first and middle names. I'd delete it before the mods take action.
tlcya
10-30-2009, 09:25 AM
When you think in the perspective of 3 years old your pretty much molded thats scary considering alot of little kids and the lives they live. I think we may see many more AB's in the years to come. These parents need to wake up if you don't want children and will not be responsible enough to raise them correctly then don't have them. Its that simple and if the welfare system would quit handing out to them I think alot of it would stop, IMO
Well spoken Hippy Chick
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 09:28 AM
Can I post a site about AB's name?
No.
Hoppy
mini-mod
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 09:28 AM
Hello all, I am new to Websleuths and have been following the news about Elizabeth Olten as well as others you have discussed. There are obviously some super sleuths here! On the Olten case, am I allowed to post a screen name and the name of the site where it is used by the person the blogosphere says is the suspect? Thanks for the guidance.
No.
Hoppy
mini-mod
SereneOne and sdw...we are not allowed to post any links to any of her personal sites or sites that have her name because she is a minor.
sdw - the site you posted does have her first and middle names. I'd delete it before the mods take action.
Thanks I'll be more careful
tlcya
10-30-2009, 09:34 AM
This is my theory of why children are getting meaner. Yes, there are some bad parents. But I see this as more of a society thing. Years ago, parents raised their children the way that they thought they should with punishments and consequences. Then "experts" came out saying we should only say positive things to our children. Never tell them they are wrong. Then the government steps in and starts telling us how we can discipline our children. We now have a generation of kids that no longer feel they do any wrong, everything is owed to them because it is all about them, and they certainly are not afraid of their parents. So while some of it is just bad parenting, some of it is bad teaching, IMO. We somehow have failed to teach our children how to cope in the real world.
Nail - meet head! you are exactly right. The experts told us that we need to make sure our children have all this self esteem. So society started praising kids for everything and completely stopped callling them on bad behaviors. On the flip side there is an entire generation of children being raised (or not raised as the case may be) by folks who are still children themselves. Two polar extremes. As a result, we have created a group of young people who have no concept of right and wrong, no clue as to how to succeed in the real world and all feel entitled to every little want or whim.
Capri
10-30-2009, 10:54 AM
First post in this topic, but i've been following all the previous threads... but did anyone who looked at the youtube account notice she has killing people & cutting listed as her hobbies? Sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't notice it; but think it's worth noting.
That youtube acct is a bit scary, isn't it? I mean how many people (15 or otherwise) would list their "hobbies" as killing & cutting people?
Kimster
10-30-2009, 10:56 AM
Hello SereneOne!!!
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/sign%20or%20English%20smilies/2sgn054groupwelcome.gif
Kimster
10-30-2009, 11:01 AM
Nail - meet head! you are exactly right. The experts told us that we need to make sure our children have all this self esteem. So society started praising kids for everything and completely stopped callling them on bad behaviors. On the flip side there is an entire generation of children being raised (or not raised as the case may be) by folks who are still children themselves. Two polar extremes. As a result, we have created a group of young people who have no concept of right and wrong, no clue as to how to succeed in the real world and all feel entitled to every little want or whim.
Because I was raised in an alcoholic home, I went to a few parenting seminars to learn better skills with my boys. Many were invaluable and one I'd like to point out to you who have youngsters now is the "Love and Logic" approach. I applied what I learned and my boys are both goal-oriented adults. One is a sophomore in a well-known college and the other a manager for a building company. The college kid has Asperger's Syndrome and used to speak on behalf of AS when he was a senior in high school.
The basic thing I learned and followed was to be sure you give consequences to your kids that fit their age. Follow through. And love love love them. I gave them freedoms in stages, based on how they were able to handle the freedom given prior. I hope that makes sense and if it helps just one parent who read my post, I'll be forever grateful.
MDATCA
10-30-2009, 11:05 AM
When you think in the perspective of 3 years old your pretty much molded thats scary considering alot of little kids and the lives they live. I think we may see many more AB's in the years to come. These parents need to wake up if you don't want children and will not be responsible enough to raise them correctly then don't have them. Its that simple and if the welfare system would quit handing out to them I think alot of it would stop, IMO
There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE factor that we have failed to catch and just occured to me this mornong when re-reaeding the posts from last night.
She may have been a drug/alcohol baby. I strongly suspect tha is the case as mom and dad are proven drug users. Mom was young when she got pregnant and most likely did not realize she was pregnant or seel pre-natal care early in the pregnancy. Either way I suspect she would have done drugs or drank at some point during her pregnancy.
There is no telling the amount of mental damage that could cause. If there is even a chance of this being the case you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be a large part of AB's defence.
Now that I got that idea in my head I can just see this going in a milion different directions.
Mom2Yaya
10-30-2009, 11:08 AM
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how AB had time to commit this horrific crime, especially if the rumor stuff is true. 45 minutes is not a whole lot of time to lure someone into the woods, do unspeakable acts to them, murder them, do more unspeakable acts and then get them buried, even if the hole *was* pre-dug.
I think it is likely that since Elizabeth was friends with AB's sister she somewhat trusted AB and that may be how she was "lured" into the woods. . . I don't think AB could've dragged her, dead or alive, into those woods. AB doesn't look big or strong enough to drag a child that size.
I wonder if AB intentionally led investigators to the body or if they watched her closely and caught her going back to the scene of the crime like so many criminals do. If AB is sick as it seems she is, it wouldn't be unlikely she would return to spend more time at the scene.
Kimster
10-30-2009, 11:14 AM
There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE factor that we have failed to catch and just occured to me this mornong when re-reaeding the posts from last night.
She may have been a drug/alcohol baby. I strongly suspect tha is the case as mom and dad are proven drug users. Mom was young when she got pregnant and most likely did not realize she was pregnant or seel pre-natal care early in the pregnancy. Either way I suspect she would have done drugs or drank at some point during her pregnancy.
There is no telling the amount of mental damage that could cause. If there is even a chance of this being the case you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be a large part of AB's defence.
Now that I got that idea in my head I can just see this going in a milion different directions.
A friend of mine is a high school counselor. She has gone to many workshops on this issue and says it is a very real - and frightening - problem with many teens today!
Capri
10-30-2009, 11:17 AM
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how AB had time to commit this horrific crime, especially if the rumor stuff is true. 45 minutes is not a whole lot of time to lure someone into the woods, do unspeakable acts to them, murder them, do more unspeakable acts and then get them buried, even if the hole *was* pre-dug.
I think it is likely that since Elizabeth was friends with AB's sister she somewhat trusted AB and that may be how she was "lured" into the woods. . . I don't think AB could've dragged her, dead or alive, into those woods. AB doesn't look big or strong enough to drag a child that size.
I wonder if AB intentionally led investigators to the body or if they watched her closely and caught her going back to the scene of the crime like so many criminals do. If AB is sick as it seems she is, it wouldn't be unlikely she would return to spend more time at the scene.
There's always the possibility that she had help. Two people could get a lot more accomplished than one in 45 min.
concernedmamaof2
10-30-2009, 11:21 AM
Hello all.
New here as well, (thanks to the mods for helping with my account set up). I'm a local to the area, but did not know Elizabeth or AB, but I can tell you, this is rocking our community. I am still having trouble coming to grips with it.
Like Bibliophile has said, it's a very close-knit community and rumors and facts are very inter-mingled. My children are not school-aged but I work with many people who have kids that went to school with Elizabeth and with AB, so we all know exactly who she is. I've tried to not think about this, because, quite frankly, it terrifies me, but somehow, I can't get it out of my mind. I found this site a week ago when trying to find more information and have been lurking since, so I figure it was time that I posted.
I did not attend the visitation or the funeral, even though it was open to the public. Honestly, I didn't feel it was my place, and I didn't think I could handle it. However, my heart goes out to all family and friends of Elizabeth. I cannot imagine what they are going through, or what AB's family and friends are feeling.
I do hope that AB is tried as an adult. I do not however think that a fair trial is to be had in Cole County. Whether or not I think she should get a fair trial is irrelavant.
I think the nail was hit on the head earlier with how children are raised these days. Too many people neglect their kids, abuse them, let them do whatever they want. That still isn't any excuse for what this 15 year old did. No matter how you are raised or how sick you may be, there is still a line, and it was crossed.
Kimster
10-30-2009, 11:22 AM
There's always the possibility that she had help. Two people could get a lot more accomplished than one in 45 min.
LE might feel as you do. I read a post from a media site that said her BF's home was searched. This has NOT been reported by a reliable source and the only reason I bring it up is that her BF has NOT been arrested. That leads me to believe she may have truly done this on her own.
Kimster
10-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Hi Concernedmamaof2! Thank you for your local insight. I hope that by sharing our feelings about this tragedy, you can find some sense of peace. My prayers go out to your community!!!
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/sign%20or%20English%20smilies/2sgn054groupwelcome.gif
Capri
10-30-2009, 11:25 AM
LE might feel as you do. I read a post from a media site that said her BF's home was searched. This has NOT been reported by a reliable source and the only reason I bring it up is that her BF has NOT been arrested. That leads me to believe she may have truly done this on her own.
If she did it on her own, I hope she fesses up to it, so that innocent friends don't go down with her.
Capri
10-30-2009, 11:26 AM
:Welcome-12-june: ConcernedMamaof2!
SondraK
10-30-2009, 11:29 AM
My chilldren were raised in the 60's. I was a single mom for a number of those years and when I wasn't, I remained the main disciplinarian. When my boys threw rocks at a car, they carried a rock around for 24 hours. I checked every hour or so to be sure they still had it and reminded them that if they liked rocks, they should enjoy carrying it.
When my son took to spitting at his siblings, he had to sit at the table and spit a bowl full before he could get up. "You like to spit, so spit" He got cotton mouth real quick and I had to turn him loose after about an hour. He didn't spit again.
I swatted bottoms when I could come up with no other means.
When my daughter carved her name in my cedar chest, while she was being punished in her room, I taught her a valuable lesson about anger. When I went to let her out of her room, I told her that I was no longer angry with her for what she did so I would let her come out. Then I asked if she were still angry with me. Of course, she said "no" and I asked how she was going to take back the scratches in the cedar chest. We compromised when I saw how crushed she was and used a scarf to cover the top. But she remembers that to this day.
Parents do not have to "beat" their children, but I feel we should retain the option of corporal punishment without being threatened to be turned in for abuse as my 6 year old grandson is known to do. "You can't hit me. That's abuse" grrrrrrrrrrr
Jules71
10-30-2009, 11:32 AM
Thanks...I went to AB's MySpace last night (took me long time to sleuth that info) LOL and my sons best friend came up as one of the three on the bottom. But his friend is 34 and lives in the Pacific Northwest so you can be sure Im going to be calling my son today and asking a whole lot of questions!!
Sorry if this has already been answered - I am just catching up this morning. The profiles at the bottom are people you may know or find interesting - not the person who's profile is private.
Morning
Just checked out the you tubes and man the kids seemed to have a lot of extras. Pool, pooltable, workout equipment, techno stuff...
Does anyone know the ages of the GPs?
Listening to AB she sounds aggressive, bossy and dominating!
Hi SDW...the gps are 53 and 62. (Both on second or third marriage). The bio mother is 30, and bio father is 35. That means the mother had AB at around 15.
yes, AB was a bossy little 13 year old...with a slightly sadistic side. I still do not see a neglected, or underpriveledged child here.
Her gps had some nice horse property both in CA and MO. I am pretty sure they moved to MO about 5 years ago, and I am somewhat sure they have been involved in their grandchildren's lives since they were born.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 12:02 PM
There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE factor that we have failed to catch and just occured to me this mornong when re-reaeding the posts from last night. She may have been a drug/alcohol baby. I strongly suspect tha is the case as mom and dad are proven drug users.
You've made a very good point and one that will probably be used by the defense.
paris_paris
10-30-2009, 12:05 PM
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how AB had time to commit this horrific crime, especially if the rumor stuff is true. 45 minutes is not a whole lot of time to lure someone into the woods, do unspeakable acts to them, murder them, do more unspeakable acts and then get them buried, even if the hole *was* pre-dug.
I think it is likely that since Elizabeth was friends with AB's sister she somewhat trusted AB and that may be how she was "lured" into the woods. . . I don't think AB could've dragged her, dead or alive, into those woods. AB doesn't look big or strong enough to drag a child that size.
I wonder if AB intentionally led investigators to the body or if they watched her closely and caught her going back to the scene of the crime like so many criminals do. If AB is sick as it seems she is, it wouldn't be unlikely she would return to spend more time at the scene.
I've wondered a lot about the specific time that Elizabeth left the friends house. I know it said her Mom called her on the cell and told her she needed to come home. Why the cell? Why not call the friend's house? Was the cell call an actual call or a text message? If she sent Elizabeth a text to come home, and Elizabeth replied, there's no telling for sure that it was Elizabeth or AB that replied back.
See where I'm going with this?
Sassygerl
10-30-2009, 12:12 PM
I've wondered a lot about the specific time that Elizabeth left the friends house. I know it said her Mom called her on the cell and told her she needed to come home. Why the cell? Why not call the friend's house? Was the cell call an actual call or a text message? If she sent Elizabeth a text to come home, and Elizabeth replied, there's no telling for sure that it was Elizabeth or AB that replied back.
See where I'm going with this?
I always call my kids cell phones and not the friends house when I need them to come home. I've never considered it wasn't them texting...that's a new thought.
paris_paris
10-30-2009, 12:14 PM
I always call my kids cell phones and not the friends house when I need them to come home. I've never considered it wasn't them texting...that's a new thought.
My step-daughter has unlimited text on her phone. We rarely purchase airtime for her... only if she's going to be away on a trip.
danni
10-30-2009, 12:16 PM
Why not call the friend's house?
I know this doesn't really answer your question but I can tell you that I myself, NEVER call someones home unless they don't have a cell phone. I myself don't have a home phone. I don't have a need for it. It is a bill with no use to me. I use my cell phone for everything and it is cheaper than having a home phone and calling long distance. I am going to assume that the whole family was on the same plan they had mobile to mobile which with most plans doesn't cost anything. Where as calling the friends house would have. Plus why pull GM away from what she was doing when she could have called E herself. ya know. Kinda cutting the middle man out.
Capri
10-30-2009, 12:19 PM
Has Elizabeht's family ever said how long Elizabeth was over at the neighbor house? Since school let out, or did she just go over to "play" for some shorter amount of time?
milliac
10-30-2009, 12:24 PM
Because I was raised in an alcoholic home, I went to a few parenting seminars to learn better skills with my boys. Many were invaluable and one I'd like to point out to you who have youngsters now is the "Love and Logic" approach. I applied what I learned and my boys are both goal-oriented adults. One is a sophomore in a well-known college and the other a manager for a building company. The college kid has Asperger's Syndrome and used to speak on behalf of AS when he was a senior in high school.
The basic thing I learned and followed was to be sure you give consequences to your kids that fit their age. Follow through. And love love love them. I gave them freedoms in stages, based on how they were able to handle the freedom given prior. I hope that makes sense and if it helps just one parent who read my post, I'll be forever grateful.
I totally agree with you. I took the Love & Logic series about 10 years ago and it was very helpful. I wish my husband would take it, and I would love a refresher course.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 12:26 PM
I've wondered a lot about the specific time that Elizabeth left the friends house. I know it said her Mom called her on the cell and told her she needed to come home. Why the cell? Why not call the friend's house? Was the cell call an actual call or a text message? If she sent Elizabeth a text to come home, and Elizabeth replied, there's no telling for sure that it was Elizabeth or AB that replied back.
See where I'm going with this?
Yes, I see where you are going with this. AB could have had E out in the woods and started this whole thing well before 6:15 - if those calls were in fact text messages. That could very well be the case!
Jules71
10-30-2009, 12:34 PM
I really think she acted alone. I do not think her bf is involved. And.... I do think her gp's suspected AB might be involved from the beginning but didn't want to believe it could be possible. I think it is very likely those calls to/from E's mom were text msgs.
I am definitely convinced she has negatively influenced her younger brothers. They need to get help right away.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 12:35 PM
What has had me puzzled is this. She was pretty darn close to home and supposedly at someone's house that the parents trusted. The call was made for her to come home at 6:15. The cops were called at 7:00. Now I am an overprotective mom, but that seems like an incredibly quick call. Let's assume 15 minutes to get herself going and make the walk. That would be a 6:30 arrival time. Did Elizabeth's mom have reason to suspect something was up that would precipitate a call to the cops that quickly? Did they spend any time looking for her first?
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 12:38 PM
I've wondered a lot about the specific time that Elizabeth left the friends house. I know it said her Mom called her on the cell and told her she needed to come home. Why the cell? Why not call the friend's house? Was the cell call an actual call or a text message? If she sent Elizabeth a text to come home, and Elizabeth replied, there's no telling for sure that it was Elizabeth or AB that replied back.
See where I'm going with this?
Yes and they are things to think about. What did LE or the press specify? Did they say "called" or something more ambiguous like "contacted by cell phone?"
On the other hand, I think AB had plenty of time to do what she intended to do, especially if she had done preparation beforehand. Someone else mentioned that they thought she was killed at that site - I agree. I think its possible AB offered to walk her home because of her fear of the dark or followed her and/or led or forced her there, possibly at knifepoint.
Remember LE has said that Elizabeth was killed around the time the call was placed and that location was "several hundred yards" from the house. I'm guessing 10 to 20 minutes to get to the location and less time for AB to get back.
LE would also spend some time with Elizabeth's mother getting info.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 12:38 PM
What has had me puzzled is this. She was pretty darn close to home and supposedly at someone's house that the parents trusted. The call was made for her to come home at 6:15. The cops were called at 7:00. Now I am an overprotective mom, but that seems like an incredibly quick call. Let's assume 15 minutes to get herself going and make the walk. That would be a 6:30 arrival time. Did Elizabeth's mom have reason to suspect something was up that would precipitate a call to the cops that quickly? Did they spend any time looking for her first?
Interesting thought. I also thought it was quick to call police. I am trying to put myself in her shoes and wonder if I would call that quickly. I know there have been times when my son didn't come home when he was supposed to and I got in my car and searched the neighborhood first.
Jamiejy
10-30-2009, 12:38 PM
That youtube acct is a bit scary, isn't it? I mean how many people (15 or otherwise) would list their "hobbies" as killing & cutting people?
And if you look at the comments there is another young person with the same name just added numbers to the end.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 12:42 PM
Yes and they are things to think about. What did LE or the press specify? Did they say "called" or something more ambiguous like "contacted by cell phone?"
On the other hand, I think AB had plenty of time to do what she intended to do, especially if she had done preparation beforehand. Someone else mentioned that they thought she was killed at that site - I agree. I think its possible AB offered to walk her home because of her fear of the dark or followed her and/or led or forced her there, possibly at knifepoint.
Remember LE has said that Elizabeth was killed around the time the call was placed and that location was "several hundred yards" from the house. I'm guessing 10 to 20 minutes to get to the location and less time for AB to get back.
LE would also spend some time with Elizabeth's mother getting info.
Right. I had forgotten about the statement that they believed she was killed around the time of the call.
It is about 900-1000 yards from AB's house to E's house. How would you interpret "several hundred yards"?
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Is he a public defender appointed to her?
Kurt Valentine is not a public defender. Depending how much money on hand the grandparents have, she could be assigned one later. The public defenders offices are overwhelmed in Missouri.
Interestingly, the judge, Jon Beetem, who presided at the guardianship hearing for AB's grandparents is also hearing the certification as to whether or not she will stand trial as an adult. He must be fully aware of all circumstances surrounding her home life.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 12:49 PM
This looks like the reason her mom called police so quickly:
Elizabeth Olten disappeared on October 21 about 6:15 p.m. while walking home from a friend's house. She never made it home and by 7 p.m., because 9-year-old Elizabeth was afraid of the dark and the woods by which she walked home, the Olten family called the police. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2333070/elizabeth_olten_case_15yearold_girl.html?cat=17
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 12:49 PM
It is about 900-1000 yards from AB's house to E's house. How would you interpret "several hundred yards"?
I recall her body being found being found "several hundred yards" into the woods, but I don't know if they meant from AB's house or Elizabeth's. I think they were indicating it was several hundred yards into the woods from the pathway the kids usually walked through the backyards.
Cortne
10-30-2009, 12:54 PM
I recall her body being found being found "several hundred yards" into the woods, but I don't know if they meant from AB's house or Elizabeth's. I think they were indicating it was several hundred yards into the woods from the pathway the kids usually walked through the backyards.
I recall this as well...
I know I cannot ask for links to the you tube stuff but may I ask what I might do to locate them myself? :waitasec:
danni
10-30-2009, 01:02 PM
I recall her body being found being found "several hundred yards" into the woods, but I don't know if they meant from AB's house or Elizabeth's. I think they were indicating it was several hundred yards into the woods from the pathway the kids usually walked through the backyards.
I might be totally off here but I thought I heard them say that her body was found several hundred yards behind her OWN home.
First of all would interperate several hundred anything from 300-1000
Here is my question, there is a pond that is behind AB's house, back in the woods a little bit, do you think she could have used that to clean up?
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 01:07 PM
This looks like the reason her mom called police so quickly:
No doubt it was probably the descending darkness that prompted her mom to call. Elizabeth may have been one of those kids that completely freaked out and in no way would be out in the dark.
On October 21st, the sun set at 6:22 p.m.. The end of civil twilight was 6:49 p.m..
It should have been about a 3-5 minute walk and if Elizabeth's mom was watching for her, she probably went out calling for. The distance is so short, I am sure it didn't take long for her to panic.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
Something else I've been thinking. What if the kids (AB, her sister, maybe a brother or two) were already out in the woods playing when Elizabeth's mom called or texted? Perhaps AB sent the others home saying that Elizabeth had to leave and that only the two of them out there alone in the vicinity she where
was found. That would have given her alot more time to do what was done as opposed to luring her out there once Elizabeth's mom called.
gliving
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE factor that we have failed to catch and just occured to me this mornong when re-reaeding the posts from last night.
She may have been a drug/alcohol baby. I strongly suspect tha is the case as mom and dad are proven drug users. Mom was young when she got pregnant and most likely did not realize she was pregnant or seel pre-natal care early in the pregnancy. Either way I suspect she would have done drugs or drank at some point during her pregnancy.
There is no telling the amount of mental damage that could cause. If there is even a chance of this being the case you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be a large part of AB's defence.
Now that I got that idea in my head I can just see this going in a milion different directions.
MDATCA, if AB has a defect from her mother's use during pregnancy, it would be an irreversible biological defect; one that can not be rehabilitated ie: fetal alcohol syndrome. I think he would skip over that in a flash. He'll try to prove she has teen angst or something that can be helped through rehab. Otherwise, it's lock her up and throw away the key. She's damaged goods.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
Here is my question, there is a pond that is behind AB's house, back in the woods a little bit, do you think she could have used that to clean up?
I don't think she needed to.
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 01:12 PM
I recall this as well...
I know I cannot ask for links to the you tube stuff but may I ask what I might do to locate them myself? :waitasec:
be on look out for it. hope this helps you.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 01:15 PM
MDATCA, if AB has a defect from her mother's use during pregnancy, it would be an irreversible biological defect; one that can not be rehabilitated ie: fetal alcohol syndrome.
But she could still receive a lighter sentence with "Diminished mental capacity."
That's why it may be better that she is not tried as an adult and instead under dual jurisdiction. Under DJ she can still receive life without parole, be sent to a juvenile institution until she ages out and then on to the Dept of Corrections.
danni
10-30-2009, 01:15 PM
I don't think she needed to.
You don't think there was any blood involved?
another quesiton.
When PD showed up would they have came lights and sirens?
If they did and AB was still in the woods she would have heard that. Giving her signal to get out of there.
danni
10-30-2009, 01:17 PM
But she could still receive a lighter sentence with "Diminished mental capacity."
That's why it may be better that she is not tried as an adult and instead under dual jurisdiction. Under DJ she can still receive life without parole, be sent to a juvenile institution until she ages out and then on to the Dept of Corrections.
I think DJ would be the best case. BECAUSE, even if she is tried as an adult the max she would get is life without parole, she is to young for a death penalty case.
gliving
10-30-2009, 01:22 PM
But she could still receive a lighter sentence with "Diminished mental capacity."
That's why it may be better that she is not tried as an adult and instead under dual jurisdiction. Under DJ she can still receive life without parole, be sent to a juvenile institution until she ages out and then on to the Dept of Corrections.
Yes, but how do they fit in her being on the honor roll and top 85% in math? No diminished mental capacity here. Equestrian and fencing awards; no physical handicaps.
MOO> she's toast.
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 01:27 PM
I think DJ would be the best case. BECAUSE, even if she is tried as an adult the max she would get is life without parole, she is to young for a death penalty case.
Didn't LE already ask that she be tried as an adult? If so, then they think that is the best way to go also.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 01:31 PM
You don't think there was any blood involved?
We have heard through blogs and boards that she was strangled and had knife wounds. Think about forensics for a moment. If strangulation was the actual cause of death, the heart had stopped. If the knife wounds were inflicted postmortem, there would be no splatter.
Gruesome and horrible, but it helps it to make more sense.
another quesiton.
When PD showed up would they have came lights and sirens?
If they did and AB was still in the woods she would have heard that. Giving her signal to get out of there.
I don't think they would have used sirens responding to a call of a lost or missing child.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Yes, but how do they fit in her being on the honor roll and top 85% in math? No diminished mental capacity here. Equestrian and fencing awards; no physical handicaps.
MOO> she's toast.
Well that would be a great point for the prosecution, but expert testimony could tear it to shreds. Its very well known that certain injuries or substances can affect a particular part of the brain and you still remain very intelligent - must like cerebral palsy or even ADHD.
But I'm just playing devil's advocate. I want her to be locked away for life.
paris_paris
10-30-2009, 01:37 PM
If Mom texted "Time to come home" and got a reply "On my way" at 6:15, and then she wasn't home by 7:00... Mom would have called/texted again and gotten no answer. That in itself is a reason to call LE. You would think Mom would check outside and look up the yards from front and back to check first.
Maybe when she got no reply on the cell, she called the friend's house at that point. They may have said she left when you called at 6:15, or she left at 5:00. 5:00 would put me in panic mode.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 01:43 PM
You don't think there was any blood involved?
another quesiton.
When PD showed up would they have came lights and sirens?
If they did and AB was still in the woods she would have heard that. Giving her signal to get out of there.
More likely that she heard them calling for Elizabeth.
More likely that she heard them calling for Elizabeth.
OMG, that gives me the creeps.:eek:
Raebie
10-30-2009, 01:46 PM
I know, but I don't see how she couldn't have heard, given the proximity. You know they were calling for her.
sleuthysleuth
10-30-2009, 01:46 PM
Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.
I AM THE 14 CAR
10-30-2009, 01:49 PM
My chilldren were raised in the 60's. I was a single mom for a number of those years and when I wasn't, I remained the main disciplinarian. When my boys threw rocks at a car, they carried a rock around for 24 hours. I checked every hour or so to be sure they still had it and reminded them that if they liked rocks, they should enjoy carrying it.
When my son took to spitting at his siblings, he had to sit at the table and spit a bowl full before he could get up. "You like to spit, so spit" He got cotton mouth real quick and I had to turn him loose after about an hour. He didn't spit again.I swatted bottoms when I could come up with no other means.
When my daughter carved her name in my cedar chest, while she was being punished in her room, I taught her a valuable lesson about anger. When I went to let her out of her room, I told her that I was no longer angry with her for what she did so I would let her come out. Then I asked if she were still angry with me. Of course, she said "no" and I asked how she was going to take back the scratches in the cedar chest. We compromised when I saw how crushed she was and used a scarf to cover the top. But she remembers that to this day.
Parents do not have to "beat" their children, but I feel we should retain the option of corporal punishment without being threatened to be turned in for abuse as my 6 year old grandson is known to do. "You can't hit me. That's abuse" grrrrrrrrrrr
BBM
<taking notes> I disipline the same way. Have to get creative sometimes.
Lqqkout
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
MDATCA, if AB has a defect from her mother's use during pregnancy, it would be an irreversible biological defect; one that can not be rehabilitated ie: fetal alcohol syndrome. I think he would skip over that in a flash. He'll try to prove she has teen angst or something that can be helped through rehab. Otherwise, it's lock her up and throw away the key. She's damaged goods.
I thought she once lived in an upscale neighborhood in La Jolla, CA? Or am I confused with another case?
Mom2Yaya
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Even if AB strangled Elizabeth first, wouldn't there still be blood on her (AB)? No spatter, but I would think there would still be blood on AB afterwards.
My daughter is 8, she's an only child, and my husband and I are pretty overprotective parents. If I talked to her at 6:15 and wanted her to come home and she told me she was headed that way and she didn't show up for 45 minutes, that'd be enough to send me into panic mode, to be honest. She's a really complacent child (for now) and there's no way she'd veer off course and be jacking around knowing we had asked her to come home. Factor in a fear of darkness and woods (which my dd has as well) and the mother stepping out of the house and calling and looking for Elizabeth without response and I'd be in full-blown paranoia where-the-hell-is-my-daughter mode.
Mom2Yaya
10-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Sorry for the double post.
Lqqkout
10-30-2009, 02:05 PM
My chilldren were raised in the 60's. I was a single mom for a number of those years and when I wasn't, I remained the main disciplinarian. When my boys threw rocks at a car, they carried a rock around for 24 hours. I checked every hour or so to be sure they still had it and reminded them that if they liked rocks, they should enjoy carrying it.
When my son took to spitting at his siblings, he had to sit at the table and spit a bowl full before he could get up. "You like to spit, so spit" He got cotton mouth real quick and I had to turn him loose after about an hour. He didn't spit again.
I swatted bottoms when I could come up with no other means.
When my daughter carved her name in my cedar chest, while she was being punished in her room, I taught her a valuable lesson about anger. When I went to let her out of her room, I told her that I was no longer angry with her for what she did so I would let her come out. Then I asked if she were still angry with me. Of course, she said "no" and I asked how she was going to take back the scratches in the cedar chest. We compromised when I saw how crushed she was and used a scarf to cover the top. But she remembers that to this day.
Parents do not have to "beat" their children, but I feel we should retain the option of corporal punishment without being threatened to be turned in for abuse as my 6 year old grandson is known to do. "You can't hit me. That's abuse" grrrrrrrrrrr
I applaud your parenting skills ! Good for you !
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 02:08 PM
Just some points to ponder....This is a 15 yr old girl, would she think about how quickly the mother would go looking for Elizabeth? Also, would a 15 yr old girl know if she was really dead or just lost consciousness if she strangled her first. Therefore, she may have still been alive when she used a knife. If that is what happened. I haven't heard a peep out of what the autopsy found.
Mendara
10-30-2009, 02:12 PM
Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.
There was no Amber alert because the case did not fit the requirements for an ambert alert - it had nothing to do with having a suspect - if they had a suspect in mind then the amber alert woul dhave been issued as one of the requirements is description of vehicle or suspect.
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I wonder if the suspect participated in the searches for Elizabeth, either right after she didn't come home or in later searches?
I also wonder if she told her twin brothers or involved them in any way... in the videos they really seem to look up to her and think she's cool.
Did she still have access to a video camera?
sleuthysleuth
10-30-2009, 02:21 PM
To be clear, I wasn't asking or wondering why there was no Amber Alert- I understood why they didn't issue one. They didn't feel an abduction had occured. What I was wondering was-were they suspicious of her from the beginning? They had to be, right? I mean, could she have kept her cool when they were questioning her- which they had to be because Elizabeth was last seen at their house.
mydailyopinions
10-30-2009, 02:21 PM
I wonder if the suspect participated in the searches for Elizabeth, either right after she didn't come home or in later searches?
I also wonder if she told her twin brothers or involved them in any way... in the videos they really seem to look up to her and think she's cool.
Did she still have access to a video camera?
Did who still have access to a video camera?
ETA: Never mind, I didn't read where you were asking about the "suspect" My bad..
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Did who still have access to a video camera?
The suspect. She posted videos on You Tube of her brothers, egging them on to do dangerous tunts to hurt themselves. So if this were a pre-planned act, would she have possibly tried to video that as well? It's too creepy to contemplate...
concernedmamaof2
10-30-2009, 02:27 PM
I'm not hugely overprotective, but if either of my kids had been allowed to be at a friends and walk home alone and had only been a few houses away, I would certainly have called LE if I hadn't heard from them in that length of time. It's quite possible her mom did look for her, we don't have the facts. I haven't heard any rumors about that, even, which is odd. The area where they live is very wooded, and when it starts to get dark it's dark. It's not like it's a subdivision with lights and heavy traffic. It's a state road, with ditches for sides and woods in the back of the houses. Very scary if your child doesn't show up in a few minutes, I'm sure, not that it wouldn't be terrifying in any circumstance.
I am curious to hear more from the mother, which I don't know if we ever will. Did Elizabeth normally go there? What was her routine?
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 02:30 PM
What has had me puzzled is this. She was pretty darn close to home and supposedly at someone's house that the parents trusted. The call was made for her to come home at 6:15. The cops were called at 7:00. Now I am an overprotective mom, but that seems like an incredibly quick call. Let's assume 15 minutes to get herself going and make the walk. That would be a 6:30 arrival time. Did Elizabeth's mom have reason to suspect something was up that would precipitate a call to the cops that quickly? Did they spend any time looking for her first?
Us Mom's have a way about us that we can sense when our children are in trouble. She knew something was not right and suspected AB.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 02:31 PM
Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.
I think there were several reasons why there was no Amber Alert. One: the criteria for issue is very specific. They made it that way so it would not be overused and cause the public to become immune to them.
Two: As I have posted about before, the area in which LE was concentrated and specific. This all took place in an area quite small. It is semi-rural, on a rural, paved route, almost like a private subdivision. There are four houses sitting directly adjacent to one another with large backyards that back up to woods. AB's grandparents property is a bit larger and set apart to the south. The total distance from AB's house to Elizabeth's is only about 350 yards; less than a quarter of a mile.
Elizabeth didn't walk along the road, so the chance of stranger abduction was near zero. The time period between when she was last seen and when LE arrived was limited and the people she could have encountered was limited.
The criteria for an Amber Alert simply was not met.
I also think that once those LE investigators who were experienced in child crime were able to observe or talk to AB and her family, their radars were activated. I know that several were pushing for access to interview and for those interviews to be undertaken by an investigator specially certified to do so.
concernedmamaof2
10-30-2009, 02:43 PM
I agree, Bibliophile. I think they already knew there was virtually no chance of stranger abduction, so they were checking locals. I'd say that once AB's family was questioned (and if AB wasn't there it might have been a red flag), they narrowed it down.
I didn't realize until this case that there were such narrow criteria for Amber Alert, because my first thought was "Why no Amber Alert?".
We haven't driven out there. Their area doesn't have streetlights, does it? I was just going by memory on the assumptions that it didn't, but that the individual houses might.
jojobatgirl
10-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Yes, I see where you are going with this. AB could have had E out in the woods and started this whole thing well before 6:15 - if those calls were in fact text messages. That could very well be the case!
SO TRUE, that def makes sense. maybe if the calls were text messages, that could be the other "written evidence" the police have referred to in addition to the "anonymous letter" leading them to AB?
(this is my first time posting so i hope i am doing this right.)
PeriodicalCuriosity
10-30-2009, 02:52 PM
I agree, Bibliophile. I think they already knew there was virtually no chance of stranger abduction, so they were checking locals. I'd say that once AB's family was questioned (and if AB wasn't there it might have been a red flag), they narrowed it down
I think I read or saw something a little more official say that AB played with Elizabeth or was at the house. Maybe AB was acting strange that night and then said she was going to visit a friend or something? Am I breaking the rules writing this? If so, I will delete it. Thanks.
Hi SDW...the gps are 53 and 62. (Both on second or third marriage). The bio mother is 30, and bio father is 35. That means the mother had AB at around 15.
yes, AB was a bossy little 13 year old...with a slightly sadistic side. I still do not see a neglected, or underpriveledged child here.
Her gps had some nice horse property both in CA and MO. I am pretty sure they moved to MO about 5 years ago, and I am somewhat sure they have been involved in their grandchildren's lives since they were born.
Thanks for the info. I wonder what kind of people the GPs were? Easy going with the kids? Did they spoil the kids? Where they involved in the kids activites? Where do they get their money from? Where could they have gone to? The lawyer is hired right? By them? Again where is all the money coming from. They had two homes. Horses/Property Who is caring for the horses while they are away? Did they know the Olten family?
PeriodicalCuriosity
10-30-2009, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the info. I wonder what kind of people the GPs were? Easy going with the kids? Did they spoil the kids? Where they involved in the kids activites? Where do they get their money from? Where could they have gone to? The lawyer is hired right? By them? Again where is all the money coming from. They had two homes. Horses/Property Who is caring for the horses while they are away? Did they know the Olten family?
I think I read on an official report that she was going to revert back to a public defender--that she didn't have money, but yeah--it looks like she had a financially comfortable life.
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 03:05 PM
Thanks I'll be more careful
Next time please wait for an answer to your question before you post.
Thanks,
Hoppy
Does anyone know the address of Elizabeth's house or the suspect's house? The articles say Elizabeth was walking home in the 600 block of Route D/Lomo Drive, but on Google Street View, there are no houses on that block. Could it be in the 200 block?
Someone posted this a while back and I have it bookmarked:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=400+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&daddr=200+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=38.58449,-92.3256&sspn=0.011205,0.024462&g=200+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17
Raebie
10-30-2009, 03:07 PM
In looking at the Google map, that looks like a heck of a lot more that 1000 feet between houses.
Jamiejy
10-30-2009, 03:11 PM
Post #403 sounds interesting and 429 seems to be alot of locals on this thread
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=359777&page=11
danni
10-30-2009, 03:15 PM
In looking at the Google map, that looks like a heck of a lot more that 1000 feet between houses.
If you actually map it with the points, it is really only 2/10 of a mile, which is 1056 feet from one drive way to the next.
which 352 yards, only three and a half football fields between the two.
paris_paris
10-30-2009, 03:19 PM
In looking at the Google map, that looks like a heck of a lot more that 1000 feet between houses.
The map is linked just above your post. It shows .2 miles (1,056 feet).
Problem is though, the house she was visiting is not on that map. It's a new house just north of house A that you can only see in Google street view. So it's a little closer than house A on the map.
I've wondered a lot about the specific time that Elizabeth left the friends house. I know it said her Mom called her on the cell and told her she needed to come home. Why the cell? Why not call the friend's house? Was the cell call an actual call or a text message? If she sent Elizabeth a text to come home, and Elizabeth replied, there's no telling for sure that it was Elizabeth or AB that replied back.
See where I'm going with this?
I do see where you are going with this, and I am thinking that AB had a much larger time frame ...for the murder, too.
However, I am not sure I have seen anything published on her Mom calling her and telling her to come home. Does anyone have a link?
I guess I believe this scenario.
Maybe Elizabeth's mother around 7 pm called the cell and got no answer, so she called the gps who told her that they sent Elizabeth home around 6:15.
(I thought I remembered a credible source stating that the gps sent Elizabeth home, as I thought that odd at the time....Why would they have not called Elizabeth's mother to say she was walking home? I can't find it)
Anyway, this scenario would provide hours... I still cannot understand why a 9 year old wants to play with a 6 year old...
Anyone have any links?
Jules71
10-30-2009, 03:23 PM
The map is linked just above your post. It shows .2 miles (1,056 feet).
Problem is though, the house she was visiting is not on that map. It's a new house just north of house A that you can only see in Google street view. So it's a little closer than house A on the map.
I actually think the new white house is to the West of A on that map. At least the parcel info looks that way - it sits further back from Lomo.
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification on the suspect's house. Which house is Elizabeth's?
Elley Mae
10-30-2009, 03:27 PM
Do Grandparents get money from the state of Missouri to help raise grandchildren that are in Guardian ship?
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 03:32 PM
I do see where you are going with this, and I am thinking that AB had a much larger time frame ...for the murder, too.
However, I am not sure I have seen anything published on her Mom calling her and telling her to come home. Does anyone have a link?
I guess I believe this scenario.
Maybe Elizabeth's mother around 7 pm called the cell and got no answer, so she called the gps who told her that they sent Elizabeth home around 6:15.
(I thought I remembered a credible source stating that the gps sent Elizabeth home, as I thought that odd at the time....Why would they have not called Elizabeth's mother to say she was walking home? I can't find it)
Anyway, this scenario would provide hours... I still cannot understand why a 9 year old wants to play with a 6 year old...
Anyone have any links?
Did anyone see Nancy Grace the last night she covered this? I thought the producer said AB was at the house when E was visiting. And also I thought I read on some of the info they were giving at the time, that Elizabeth left and AB called her back to invite her back.
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 03:32 PM
Elizabeth loved horses. Maybe she was over at the neighbors' house more to see the horses than to play with the 6-year-old girl. I would have done the same thing when I was a horse-crazy kid.
danni
10-30-2009, 03:32 PM
Do Grandparents get money from the state of Missouri to help raise grandchildren that are in Guardian ship?
I don't know that they get money if they get guardianship, but if either grandparent in the home was on Social Security Disability then yes they would have gotten money for the children.
ETA: I just found this.
What is Adoption Subsidy & Subsidized Guardianship?
Subsidy is a collaborative agreement between the Children's Division staff and the adoptive/guardianship family to assist in meeting the needs of the child. Financial, medical and support services may be available to the adopting/guardianship family through subsidy until the child is 18.
Child Eligibility
Children must have been in the custody of the Children's Division, Division of Youth Services, Department of Mental Health, or a licensed child placing agency. This is the minimum requirement, other requirements also apply.
Children who have been adopted internationally are not eligible for adoption subsidy, as well as children adopted by a step-parent.
Guardian Eligibility
Only qualified relatives are eligible to receive subsidized guardianship services for their relative children. By Missouri statute, qualified relatives include grandparents, aunts, uncles, adult siblings and first cousins to the child.
More can be found at: http://www.dss.mo.gov/cd/adopt/masp.htm
LotsaLatte
10-30-2009, 03:38 PM
Maybe Elizabeth's mother around 7 pm called the cell and got no answer, so she called the gps who told her that they sent Elizabeth home around 6:15.
(I thought I remembered a credible source stating that the gps sent Elizabeth home, as I thought that odd at the time....Why would they have not called Elizabeth's mother to say she was walking home? I can't find it)
Anyway, this scenario would provide hours... I still cannot understand why a 9 year old wants to play with a 6 year old...
Anyone have any links?
Above snipped and bolded by me;
Just throwing in my own experience here - I lived in a neighborhood where we were all very close and all of our kids would play together sun up to sun down. Even the parents would! The kids were ages 1 1/2 to 14 at the time. It was great! My now 9 year old daughter still plays dollies, Barbies and Polly so I'm not surprised that E would play with someone 6 years old at all.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 03:40 PM
I thought it was odd too that a 9 year old and a 6 year old were friends. But given the area, they might have been the only other kids in the neighborhood. That, plus the horses, the pool and that the boys were friends, it makes sense they would spend time together.
I thought she once lived in an upscale neighborhood in La Jolla, CA? Or am I confused with another case?
The perp's grandparents lived in CA, and have quite a bit of family around CA, southern and central. It appears that the gf has a sister in La Jolla. I can only see property records for gf and previous wife, and gf and bio gm in central/northern California. I think the gf divorced his previous wife in 1988. I could be wrong there. I know someone here has the marriage record of the gps.
danni
10-30-2009, 03:43 PM
Elizabeth loved horses. Maybe she was over at the neighbors' house more to see the horses than to play with the 6-year-old girl. I would have done the same thing when I was a horse-crazy kid.
There are lots of reason she COULD have been there this being one.
I know the neighbor girl, eight, comes to my house to play just about every day after school. My children are 5, 2, and 5 months. There is only one other family in the area with kids around her age and NO one in the apartment complex allows their children to go over there to play.
If there was no one else in the are that had children then maybe these (AB's brothers and sister) were the only kids to play with.
Kinda like "beggars can't be choosers"!
Jules71
10-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Above snipped and bolded by me;
Just throwing in my own experience here - I lived in a neighborhood where we were all very close and all of our kids would play together sun up to sun down. Even the parents would! The kids were ages 1 1/2 to 14 at the time. It was great! My now 9 year old daughter still plays dollies, Barbies and Polly so I'm not surprised that E would play with someone 6 years old at all.
I agree. I don't find it odd a 9 yo would play with a 6 yo. A lot of kids for various reasons get along better with kids who are older or younger than they do with peers the same age. My kid is that way.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Also, did anyone else notice that the pool shown on youtube was at the old house (the one built in 1962)? You can see from the video that the pool looks on to the big garage or shed type building (stables)? I wonder who lives in the old house, or if they use both?
lawlady84
10-30-2009, 03:49 PM
From the guardianship records (before they were pulled), there were 2 addresses listed for the grandparents house. One 600something, one 200something. I thought it was weird, but I checked the property records and they own 2 parcels of land. One had the house & lake, the other was just land. I believe from reading here the new house was built technically on the other parcel of land so it would have different numbering.
Did anyone see Nancy Grace the last night she covered this? I thought the producer said AB was at the house when E was visiting. And also I thought I read on some of the info they were giving at the time, that Elizabeth left and AB called her back to invite her back.
I did not watch it, but you can find the show on youtube. Did they discuss the specifics of the phone calls? Who made the call to whom? I know that almost everything reported on that show is followed by the disclaimer: LE will not confirm this. The rumor that AB lured Elizabeth back is a fairly recent one, and it has not been confirmed by anyone. I have to constantly keep in mind, that LE has released very little information to the press.
We need a FAQ facts list
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 03:49 PM
This must be so traumatic the 6-year-old girl, knowing her own sister killed her friend. Do you think the two sisters were close? I heard they were half-sisters.
nursebeeme
10-30-2009, 03:52 PM
http://abc.go.com/watch/primetime-crime/218130/234256/jails-that-treat-kids-like-kids
very good show video (40 minutes) on abc about the controversial juvie system in MO
***if you don't have the abc full episode player you may be prompted to download it
eta: it is about the "alternate" prisons they use for teens and how well they seem to work
danni
10-30-2009, 03:55 PM
This must be so traumatic the 6-year-old girl, knowing her own sister killed her friend. Do you think the two sisters were close? I heard they were half-sisters.
They were half sisters, I am going to venture a guess and say that NO the two girls were NOT close. She didn't seen to WANT to be around anyone that did not have the same point of view as she did. With "hobbies" like killing people and cutting, I don't know that her six year old sister would be her "buddy".
She also did not like anyone with athority, I am going to guess again that six year old mad maybe even the elevin year olds did not share this same point of view thus she wasn't close to any of them.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 03:58 PM
I read that the old house was what they used for the daycare.
I think I read on an official report that she was going to revert back to a public defender--that she didn't have money, but yeah--it looks like she had a financially comfortable life.
It is interesting that the gps have not hired a lawyer for her.
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 04:01 PM
I did not watch it, but you can find the show on youtube. Did they discuss the specifics of the phone calls? Who made the call to whom? I know that almost everything reported on that show is followed by the disclaimer: LE will not confirm this. The rumor that AB lured Elizabeth back is a fairly recent one, and it has not been confirmed by anyone. I have to constantly keep in mind, that LE has released very little information to the press.
We need a FAQ facts list
True, but LE hasn't confirmed anything at all to speak of. So No matter where it comes from, it is all not LE confirmed.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 04:01 PM
From the guardianship records (before they were pulled), there were 2 addresses listed for the grandparents house. One 600something, one 200something. I thought it was weird, but I checked the property records and they own 2 parcels of land. One had the house & lake, the other was just land. I believe from reading here the new house was built technically on the other parcel of land so it would have different numbering.
Yes, the new white house built in 2007 has an address in the 200's.
nursebeeme
10-30-2009, 04:02 PM
It is interesting that the gps have not hired a lawyer for her.the way the media has been in this case they could have and we just don't know it! LOL
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 04:04 PM
It is interesting that the gps have not hired a lawyer for her.
Luke Valentine is the name of the lawyer in the hearing the other day. He is not a public defender, but that doesn't mean the gps hired him or he is doing pro bono for the juvie hearings.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 04:04 PM
They were half sisters, I am going to venture a guess and say that NO the two girls were NOT close. She didn't seen to WANT to be around anyone that did not have the same point of view as she did. With "hobbies" like killing people and cutting, I don't know that her six year old sister would be her "buddy".
She also did not like anyone with athority, I am going to guess again that six year old mad maybe even the elevin year olds did not share this same point of view thus she wasn't close to any of them.
The 6 yo little sister was in the pool with them in the youtube video. I think the twin brothers looked up to her. They seemed very influenced by AB.
From the guardianship records (before they were pulled), there were 2 addresses listed for the grandparents house. One 600something, one 200something. I thought it was weird, but I checked the property records and they own 2 parcels of land. One had the house & lake, the other was just land. I believe from reading here the new house was built technically on the other parcel of land so it would have different numbering.
Not all of the records were pulled, and both addresses are listed under the gm's name.
jojobatgirl
10-30-2009, 04:06 PM
This must be so traumatic the 6-year-old girl, knowing her own sister killed her friend. Do you think the two sisters were close? I heard they were half-sisters.
ITA. Here's hoping she doesnt turn out like AB :-(
Money Girl
10-30-2009, 04:07 PM
I thought she once lived in an upscale neighborhood in La Jolla, CA? Or am I confused with another case?
Was AB born in CA?
danni
10-30-2009, 04:09 PM
http://abc.go.com/watch/primetime-crime/218130/234256/jails-that-treat-kids-like-kids
very good show video (40 minutes) on abc about the controversial juvie system in MO
***if you don't have the abc full episode player you may be prompted to download it
eta: it is about the "alternate" prisons they use for teens and how well they seem to work
Troubled teens, ok. i would much rather get these kids when they are young and "treat" the problems they deal with and keep them out of adult prisons.
Murders? NO! They acted adult like, they need to be treated adult like!
Mom2Yaya
10-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Info shows the gps live in the 600 block of Lomo.
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 04:11 PM
How old are the twin boys? Could be she was beginning to like boys too?
danni
10-30-2009, 04:12 PM
How old are the twin boys? Could be she was beginning to like boys too?
the boys are 11
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 04:14 PM
This website has a lot of good information
http://www.midmogis.org/website/MidMoGIS/maphtm/viewer.asp
Patty G
10-30-2009, 04:15 PM
I did not watch it, but you can find the show on youtube. Did they discuss the specifics of the phone calls? Who made the call to whom? I know that almost everything reported on that show is followed by the disclaimer: LE will not confirm this. The rumor that AB lured Elizabeth back is a fairly recent one, and it has not been confirmed by anyone. I have to constantly keep in mind, that LE has released very little information to the press.
We need a FAQ facts list
You can see coverage of what Nancy had to say at my YouTube channel. I didn't get a change to put the videos here as they are only going to get lost in the posts.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947
What is reported out of the mouths of Nancy or producers have NOT been spoken out of the mouth of Law Enforcement.
la_cavalière
10-30-2009, 04:21 PM
This article says police received a note. Wonder who wrote it?
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/10/15-year-old_girl_charged_with.php
Police spent two days searching for the girl in the wooded areas of St. Martins, Missouri before receiving a handwritten note Friday that led them to a 15-year-old juvenile.
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 04:25 PM
I am thinking a family member of AB's.
vjlaw
10-30-2009, 04:27 PM
You can see coverage of what Nancy had to say at my YouTube channel. I didn't get a change to put the videos here as they are only going to get lost in the posts.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947
What is reported out of the mouths of Nancy or producers have NOT been spoken out of the mouth of Law Enforcement.
This is true. Nothing is coming out of the mouths of law enforcement on any of these sights.
Elley Mae
10-30-2009, 04:29 PM
I am thinking a family member of AB's.
Me too.
Elley Mae
10-30-2009, 04:33 PM
So the grandparents are married for the 2rd and 3rd time iirc, are these children that they have guardianship over the grandmothers or the grandfathers biological grandchildren.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 04:40 PM
I believe it's the grandmothers daughter's children.
danni
10-30-2009, 04:42 PM
I believe it's the grandmothers daughter's children.
me too.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 04:44 PM
O/T
I don't know if this has been mentioned today, but here's the news about more horrible acts in MidMo
"MILLER COUNTY -- Miller County police arrested a Brumley man for child abuse.
The five-month-old baby girl clings to life at University Hospital, while her father sits in jail with no bond-- charged with physically and sexually abusing her."
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 04:45 PM
I almost puked when I read this, OMG
tlcya
10-30-2009, 04:51 PM
O/T
I don't know if this has been mentioned today, but here's the news about more horrible acts in MidMo
"MILLER COUNTY -- Miller County police arrested a Brumley man for child abuse.
The five-month-old baby girl clings to life at University Hospital, while her father sits in jail with no bond-- charged with physically and sexually abusing her."
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
I have no words. none. Like you, physically sikened.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry Money Girl, I can't say. :(
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 04:51 PM
I have no words. none. Like you, physically sikened.
FYI, this is the same town that AB's dad lived before arrested...
danni
10-30-2009, 04:54 PM
"...two counts of felony statutory sodomy..."
"....after watching a pornographic video..."
"...required emergency surgery to repair internal hemorrhaging..."
Are you Fin kidding me?
Do you know what kind of treatment this man is going to get in prison when words gets around that he did this?
Prison does not like baby killers or sex offenders.
tlcya
10-30-2009, 05:02 PM
Well, this one for sure is going to fire up alot of WS membership. Won't be long before this story has its own thread. Are you going to start one Curious?
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
tlcya
10-30-2009, 05:03 PM
posted by crimecurious: FYI, this is the same town that AB's dad lived before arrested...
That is a creepy, make your hair stand up on end kinda coincidence.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:08 PM
O.K.
Do you know if AB was born in CA?
No I don't. I have not checked on that yet. If I come across it, I'll let you know.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:08 PM
Well, this one for sure is going to fire up alot of WS membership. Won't be long before this story has its own thread. Are you going to start one Curious?
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
I hadn't intended to. I'm new here.
tlcya
10-30-2009, 05:14 PM
As am. I will check out the TOS to make sure of the rules of posting new threads etc. before I post a new one. I want to make sure I doing it properly. If no else has put it out there within the next day or so maybe I will be brave and give it a shot, lol.
Mom2Yaya
10-30-2009, 05:14 PM
I'm sorry Money Girl, I can't say. :(
Do you know because of where you live or did you find it online?
danni
10-30-2009, 05:17 PM
Kathleen
Posted by Kathleen Lavery, Jefferson City - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 6:02 p.m.
Yeah, right, watching porn is an innocent act that should be accessible to all adults. Porn should never fall under freedom of speech and should be outlawed once again.
comment from http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
Are you kidding me? i mean really, hello PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. This man is TWISTED, SICK and a waste of oxygen.
WholeLottaRosie
10-30-2009, 05:22 PM
Well that would be a great point for the prosecution, but expert testimony could tear it to shreds. Its very well known that certain injuries or substances can affect a particular part of the brain and you still remain very intelligent - must like cerebral palsy or even ADHD.
But I'm just playing devil's advocate. I want her to be locked away for life.
I have a relative by marriage, who's sister has two children with fetal alcohol syndrome (she cleaned up after having them, <sigh>) and both kids are quite learning disabled. They do not do well socially or educationally. They have both been getting help since birth. The oldest, a girl is 14 now and she had trouble with all facets of learning and has no empathy. The younger child is better socially, but, still has much trouble in school. Neither one will ever be winning any awards, and, it is a shame, both are adorable in appearance and I especially worry about the girl.
Mels3kidz
10-30-2009, 05:28 PM
What has had me puzzled is this. She was pretty darn close to home and supposedly at someone's house that the parents trusted. The call was made for her to come home at 6:15. The cops were called at 7:00. Now I am an overprotective mom, but that seems like an incredibly quick call. Let's assume 15 minutes to get herself going and make the walk. That would be a 6:30 arrival time. Did Elizabeth's mom have reason to suspect something was up that would precipitate a call to the cops that quickly? Did they spend any time looking for her first?
Unless Elizabeth was a very prompt child and always came home within minutes of being called. Its only a couple of houses away. A 5 minute walk or less.
Melissa
tgrlaw
10-30-2009, 05:29 PM
Well, this one for sure is going to fire up alot of WS membership. Won't be long before this story has its own thread. Are you going to start one Curious?
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
FWIW... Miller County, MO should/could be a thread unto itself. Disturbing things frequently happen there. Unfortunately, there is not too much mystery to what happened, so not much sleuthing is needed.
New here, been following the EO story since she was reported missing.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:35 PM
Any one have a middle name for AB?
It's D.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:37 PM
FWIW... Miller County, MO should/could be a thread unto itself. Disturbing things frequently happen there. Unfortunately, there is not too much mystery to what happened, so not much sleuthing is needed.
New here, been following the EO story since she was reported missing.
Very strange stuff goes on there. Miller county is plagued by Meth. There have been several (as in 4-5) child abuse and murder cases recently. I think all by parents.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Someone logged int AB's myspace account again this afternoon. Wonder if LE is keeping tabs on something?
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Someone logged int AB's myspace account again this afternoon. Wonder if LE is keeping tabs on something?
I've been away from myspace for a long time. Can you see who's viewed your profile on there?
lajr56
10-30-2009, 05:43 PM
OK, just jumping here. Regarding AB's many online accounts. I may sound like a hardliner here. I realize that the GP's took their grandkids in. But if you are going to take that kind of responsibility, you need to be ALL in.
Monitor your kids online activity. Why were these youtube accounts not monitored? I am not specifically talking about the videos themselves. I am talking about the status that AB has. "I like killing people"?
I sneak behind my kid on line ALL THE TIME. I will not apologize. Be smarter than them. If you are going to give them this kind of technology, you better learn how to use it yourself. Parental Controls? Yep, got them set.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:48 PM
About AB not having the money for an lawyer... The GPs are loaded. But they may refused to pay for one also. I think they are probably paying Kurt Valentine, he does pretty big cases. BTW, I saw him representing someone in court yesterday. He's good in a bad kinda way...
Raebie
10-30-2009, 05:49 PM
I've been away from myspace for a long time. Can you see who's viewed your profile on there?
Probably, but I don't see why they'd care.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 05:51 PM
Probably, but I don't see why they'd care.
Looking for people who might know something? I dunno.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 05:52 PM
More than likely. Most of her friend's pages are private. Logging into her account would be the only way to view them.
tgrlaw
10-30-2009, 06:07 PM
On 10/26/09 I breifly discussed the events of this case with my neighbor who is a MO State Trooper involved in the search for Elizabeth. I told him that I was not ready to hear any details at that time, mainly because of my being unerved by the situation, given that I have a 9 y.o. daughter with brown hair, and because within two houses on either side of mine on both sides of my street there are 17 children under the age of 13. Our neighborhood is about 2.5 miles from where this took place. I am getting closer to being able to have that conversation.
Two things he did tell me were that Elizabeth was well concealed, in that he said he probably walked past the location a couple of times himself, (he is over 6 ft, and the brush was over his head) and that there was sufficient evidence to warrant the 1st degree charge, including a diary.
For JC, this situation is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in the room. Very quiet, i.e. too quiet. Personally, I have doubts the local press/media or legal system can handle this. The dearth of information from both is understandable, but as time passes toward Nov. 18th, how they deal with the pressure from the public will be telling.
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:11 PM
Any one have a middle name for AB?
I think it is in her twitter page? The user name I think is her first and middle with no space?? I could be wrong not sure. :waitasec:
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:15 PM
I've been away from myspace for a long time. Can you see who's viewed your profile on there?
I don't think so. Wish I could just to be nosey and see who viewed mine LOL I know it tracks # of times viewed but not who views.:waitasec:
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 06:16 PM
It's D.
And that's ALL that will be said on this forum about her middle name.
Hoppy
mini-mod
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:17 PM
Someone logged int AB's myspace account again this afternoon. Wonder if LE is keeping tabs on something?
I would bet her lawyer. I bet she gave him the pw to view it. Unless a family member like in Casey Anthony's case when Lee would do it. :waitasec:
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:18 PM
And that's ALL that will be said on this forum about her middle name.
Hoppy
mini-mod
hope the way I pointed to it was alright. If not I'll redo it. Please let me know....:waitasec:
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 06:27 PM
And that's ALL that will be said on this forum about her middle name.
Hoppy
mini-mod
I'm sorry. I'm trying to follow the rules. I thought that exact info was already on here buried somewhere.
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, this one for sure is going to fire up alot of WS membership. Won't be long before this story has its own thread. Are you going to start one Curious?
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=~%5Cnews%5Clists%5Clocal&id=369727
I can for you all. It is easy just figure out the place to put it.
ETA here it is for you:
Brumley man arrested for child abuse, infant in hospital - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Money Girl
10-30-2009, 06:36 PM
I think it is in her twitter page? The user name I think is her first and middle with no space?? I could be wrong not sure. :waitasec:
Mother - M?
Father - J?
*~Aimee~*
10-30-2009, 06:40 PM
Mother - M?
Father - J?
let me look back on the threads from last night. His MDOC pic is in there. BRB
ETA: here is last nights post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #4
danni
10-30-2009, 06:41 PM
Mother - M?
Father - J?
Mother's first initial, yes, father no.
danni
10-30-2009, 06:42 PM
I'm sorry. I'm trying to follow the rules. I thought that exact info was already on here buried somewhere.
I dont think your in trouble I think they just want to make sure EVERYONE ;) knows no more than that is to be given away here.
crimecurious
10-30-2009, 06:47 PM
I've been working on something that interests me and I'd like some thoughts. I've been measuring the woods since I believe LE said the body was "several hundred" yards in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. I'm guessing that to be maybe 900-1000 feet. If I go staight south it's already on the gps property and I think LE would have said "near the suspects residence." If I go west it runs very close to a subdivision off of another road. If I go southwest it measures to a large pond. I superzoomed the pond area and there appears to be a trail/path of some sort that runs along side the pond and all the way back to the road between the gps property and the property beside it. I'm guessing that would have to be the area they found her. And if there's a trail, it would have been much easier to get that far back and then home than one might think. However, if it was more to the west, that might support the theory of the perp to going to a friends house.
milliac
10-30-2009, 07:02 PM
The suspect. She posted videos on You Tube of her brothers, egging them on to do dangerous tunts to hurt themselves. So if this were a pre-planned act, would she have possibly tried to video that as well? It's too creepy to contemplate...
She certainly did egg them on in those videos. It appeared those boys were he77 on wheels and the ones GP could worry about more. ROCK ON! :dance: Most of it appeared to me be sibling kind of stuff, hoping to get a cool jacka$$ video on You Tube. I checked out her friends, and its sad...they just seem like normal teenage girls who love music and eachother. They must be torn up about this. I really hope she didn't video what she did to Elizabeth.
milliac
10-30-2009, 07:06 PM
Us Mom's have a way about us that we can sense when our children are in trouble. She knew something was not right and suspected AB.
That is true. I still remember my son playing outside on his big wheel. I was in the living room folding laundry, watching him out the window. Something literally screamed at me to run outside just as a truck was backing out of the driveway about to hit my son. I ran across the street and pulled him off his bigwheel just before the truck hit it. I am a firm believer that mom's do have an instinct with their children.
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 07:17 PM
I've been working on something that interests me and I'd like some thoughts. I've been measuring the woods since I believe LE said the body was "several hundred" yards in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. I'm guessing that to be maybe 900-1000 feet. If I go staight south it's already on the gps property and I think LE would have said "near the suspects residence." If I go west it runs very close to a subdivision off of another road. If I go southwest it measures to a large pond. I superzoomed the pond area and there appears to be a trail/path of some sort that runs along side the pond and all the way back to the road between the gps property and the property beside it. I'm guessing that would have to be the area they found her. And if there's a trail, it would have been much easier to get that far back and then home than one might think. However, if it was more to the west, that might support the theory of the perp to going to a friends house.
I have been measuring and trying to determine her route as well. I also saw the clearing/path area along the pond. I am torn -don't know the exact area where they found Elizabeth. Do you?
danni
10-30-2009, 07:31 PM
I've been working on something that interests me and I'd like some thoughts. I've been measuring the woods since I believe LE said the body was "several hundred" yards in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. I'm guessing that to be maybe 900-1000 feet. If I go staight south it's already on the gps property and I think LE would have said "near the suspects residence." If I go west it runs very close to a subdivision off of another road. If I go southwest it measures to a large pond. I superzoomed the pond area and there appears to be a trail/path of some sort that runs along side the pond and all the way back to the road between the gps property and the property beside it. I'm guessing that would have to be the area they found her. And if there's a trail, it would have been much easier to get that far back and then home than one might think. However, if it was more to the west, that might support the theory of the perp to going to a friends house.
"The body was found near the wooden area of Elizabeth's home." http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367027
"AT&T triangulated the location as deep in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. Family members say Elizabeth would not have gone into the woods."
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=366728
BBM
Then I THOUGHT they said the phone was found with/near Elizabeth. right?
the theory of being next to the path would make sense if she was found NEAR the woods, but still DEEP in the woods. You can be back in the woods but still NEXT to the woods if you are on a path IN the woods.
Raebie
10-30-2009, 07:49 PM
The cell phone was found on Elizabeth's body.
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367027
velvetrose
10-30-2009, 07:49 PM
"The body was found near the wooden area of Elizabeth's home." http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367027
"AT&T triangulated the location as deep in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. Family members say Elizabeth would not have gone into the woods."
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=366728
BBM
Then I THOUGHT they said the phone was found with/near Elizabeth. right?
the theory of being next to the path would make sense if she was found NEAR the woods, but still DEEP in the woods. You can be back in the woods but still NEXT to the woods if you are on a path IN the woods.
Got ya!!!
human
10-30-2009, 07:59 PM
I have woods in my yard. Have you ever tried digging in the woods with all of the roots and rocks, etc? That was one determined girl.
I still think that she has attachment disorder, especially now that I see how she liked to see her brother get hurt.I saw a 4 year old boy set up ways to hurt other children. He was diagnosed with attachment disorder.
I imagine eventually she will be heavily medicated.
Jules71
10-30-2009, 08:21 PM
I've been working on something that interests me and I'd like some thoughts. I've been measuring the woods since I believe LE said the body was "several hundred" yards in the woods behind Elizabeth's home. I'm guessing that to be maybe 900-1000 feet. If I go staight south it's already on the gps property and I think LE would have said "near the suspects residence." If I go west it runs very close to a subdivision off of another road. If I go southwest it measures to a large pond. I superzoomed the pond area and there appears to be a trail/path of some sort that runs along side the pond and all the way back to the road between the gps property and the property beside it. I'm guessing that would have to be the area they found her. And if there's a trail, it would have been much easier to get that far back and then home than one might think. However, if it was more to the west, that might support the theory of the perp to going to a friends house.
Ditto. We have seen this picture already in one of these threads. It looks to me like that wooded area straight down the dirt road driveway to the white house is pretty hilly. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=400+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&daddr=200+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=38.58449,-92.3256&sspn=0.011205,0.024462&g=200+lomo+dr,+jefferson+city,+MO&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=38.581882,-92.325671&spn=0,359.995872&z=19&layer=c&cbll=38.581794,-92.325675&panoid=jZYmXF5tlqFRGUaoQgDCow&cbp=12,259.59,,0,8.1
Kamille
10-30-2009, 09:13 PM
If AB's family had horses and Elizabeth liked horses, is it possible that AB offered her a ride on a horse back into the woods? Wouldn't they have had some trails through the woods for the horses? Where else would they have ridden them?
Lqqkout
10-30-2009, 09:50 PM
posted by crimecurious: FYI, this is the same town that AB's dad lived before arrested...
That is a creepy, make your hair stand up on end kinda coincidence.
Do we know what crimes the parents were convicted and how long are their sentences?
lawlady84
10-30-2009, 10:04 PM
Mom various drug charges, Dad 10 years for 1st degree assault
Lqqkout
10-30-2009, 10:05 PM
let me look back on the threads from last night. His MDOC pic is in there. BRB
ETA: here is last nights post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4362004&postcount=425)
Is Mom here, too?
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm sorry. I'm trying to follow the rules. I thought that exact info was already on here buried somewhere.
You did fine. I just wanted to be clear that we aren't going past that middle initial.
:blowkiss:
Hoppy
danni
10-30-2009, 10:09 PM
Do we know what crimes the parents were convicted and how long are their sentences?
Dad-1st degree assault 10 years, 2nd degree assault 7 years, 2nd degree assault 7 years all terms will run concurrently and he will serve 10 years total.
Mom- is on two years unsupervised probation for DWI and two years unsupervised probation for possession of marijuana
danni
10-30-2009, 10:10 PM
Is Mom here, too?
no mom is not currently incarcerated.
ETA: I should have said I did not find mom in any offender searches as being incarcerated.
hoppyfrog
10-30-2009, 10:10 PM
hope the way I pointed to it was alright. If not I'll redo it. Please let me know....:waitasec:
I didn't see a problem. Though once, a very long time ago, one tiny thing did get past me.....:crazy::crazy: hehehehe
Hoppy
mini-mod
know all, see all parent of three teens :crazy::crazy:
Lqqkout
10-30-2009, 10:14 PM
no mom is not currently incarcerated.
ETA: I should have said I did not find mom in any offender searches as being incarcerated.
hmmmm...wonder where mom is ?
danni
10-30-2009, 10:17 PM
hmmmm...wonder where mom is ?
Per last known address, about 70 miles south of the house that her children were living in.
Bibliophile
10-30-2009, 10:44 PM
Two things he did tell me were that Elizabeth was well concealed, in that he said he probably walked past the location a couple of times himself, (he is over 6 ft, and the brush was over his head) and that there was sufficient evidence to warrant the 1st degree charge, including a diary.
This is what I heard as well. A rumor has popped up that there was a note given to LE. No matter what, I think its safe to say that AB had written something that supported premeditated murder.
Along with the written evidence, they also found other physical evidence that led them to AB and she then led them to the body.
lawlady84
10-30-2009, 11:06 PM
To the locals, I'm pretty sure you can post what adults in the area have told you about the crime. I think we're just steering away from nasty rumors about 3rd parties- like the rumors about ABs boyfriend, etc. But if you know someone in LE there, that's the same as reporters who publish stories from an "unauthorized source." As long as you're not making it up, I think its fine. (That's why we avoid repeating rumors from anonymous commentators on news sites, since we don't know if they even live in MO!)
lawlady84
10-30-2009, 11:07 PM
From the court records, the mom was evicted from her apartment the month before grandma got custody - not sure where she's living.
sweets
10-30-2009, 11:22 PM
This is what I heard as well. A rumor has popped up that there was a note given to LE. No matter what, I think its safe to say that AB had written something that supported premeditated murder.
Along with the written evidence, they also found other physical evidence that led them to AB and she then led them to the body.
Hi Bib and everyone,
Bib iirc you are local to the area. I am wondering if you might know/or direct me to where I might find AB's DOB and place of birth (especially DOB). We need this for the astro thread in order to do a chart on her r/t EO's murder.
Or if anyone might know or be able to sleuth this out it would be greatly appreciated. A look at her chart by our astros here my help find other pertinant info.
Thank you all so very much for any assistance you can give. If anyone can find this info It will be you guys...U the bestesttttt...TIA again....sweets
Luke Valentine is the name of the lawyer in the hearing the other day. He is not a public defender, but that doesn't mean the gps hired him or he is doing pro bono for the juvie hearings.
It's Kurt Valentine, not Luke. Here's his website. Kurt Valentine (http://www.kurtvalentine.com/)
Angel Who Cares
10-31-2009, 01:16 AM
State police: Harrington seen during concert with facial injury
Friday, October 30, 2009
<snipped>
State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said investigators didn't disclose the fact earlier because the injury was consistent with what a person would sustain after falling and doesn't appear to be related to her disappearance.
"Many of those we've spoken to during the course of this investigation recalled seeing a minor scrape or cut on the face of the young woman they saw fitting Miss Harrington's description," Geller said. "This injury would be consistent with a slip or fall. In no way would such a minor abrasion be associated with an assault."
See a map documenting the timeline of sightings of Harrington in the hour before she was last seen:
http://www.roanoke.com/datasphere/wb/xp-224154
Article:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/224441
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2009/10/30/ng.coed.sighting.cnn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Morgan Search Continues
Posted: Oct 30, 2009 6:13 PM EDT
Updated: Oct 30, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
<snipped>
It is day 13 and there is still no sign of 20-year-old Morgan Harrington. Friday her parents came to Charlottesville to get an update on the investigation and to pay tribute to their daughter.
Dan and Gil Harrington say they needed to be here for emotional reasons: to walk the area where Morgan was last seen and to make sure everything that can be done is being done. Living in Roanoke the Harrington’s say they feel disconnected from the epicenter of all the searching for their daughter.
Video: Hope Continues For Missing Student's Parents
http://www.nbc29.com/global/Category.asp?C=175568&clipId=4259596&autostart=true
Article:
http://www.nbc29.com/Global/story.asp?S=11417263
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Search for Morgan Harrington Continues in Charlottesville
There are several new developments in the case of the missing 20-year-old Virginia Tech student.
Posted: 6:05 PM Oct 30, 2009
<snipped>
Flowers, poems and other mementos are being left at the Copeley Street Bridge.
Morgan's parents, Dan and Gil Harrington, were in town Friday in an effort to continuously bring attention to their daughter's disappearance.
They hung missing person signs and placed flowers to remind people they are still looking for Morgan, and they won't stop searching.
The Harringtons also put flowers in front of the police station. They are thankful to the efforts of the police and the people who have been calling in tips.
Article:
http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/67766332.html
:angel:
littlek89
10-31-2009, 01:35 AM
I know there were people earlier asking why it appeared someone had longed on to AB's MS page...I'm guessing it was her attorney, just making sure it was clear of anything that could perhaps serve as evidence for the prosecution to maybe prove something about her character...her fixation with violence...etc.
The reason I think this is because, and forgive me if someone has pointed this out already, but all of her "tweets" on Twitter have been erased. Some of them pointed to how troubled she apparently is.
Another reason the tweets could have been deleted is...AB now has over 100 Twitter followers. People are starting to realize who this girl is, and the public gawking at her social networking pages could be bad for her and the case.
FifthEssence
10-31-2009, 02:13 AM
1999 would make her 10 years old? Where did you read this?
I believe the member mis-read the inquiry and posted Elizabeth Olten's birthdate which was on her Missing poster as well as in her obituary.
vjlaw
10-31-2009, 02:40 AM
It's Kurt Valentine, not Luke. Here's his website. Kurt Valentine (http://www.kurtvalentine.com/)
I knew that. I don't know why I had Luke on my mind. Thanks for the correction.
crimecurious
10-31-2009, 02:44 AM
hmmmm...wonder where mom is ?
The last I've known of her is Crocker, MO...
vjlaw
10-31-2009, 02:50 AM
The last I've known of her is Crocker, MO...
Just wondering if you have heard anything about what the grandparents to Jeff City from CA. Is either one or both of the grandparents from Jeff city originally? And were they attending church anywhere?
vjlaw
10-31-2009, 02:54 AM
That sentence was suppose to say "what brought the grandparents to Jeff City?
crimecurious
10-31-2009, 02:59 AM
That sentence was suppose to say "what brought the grandparents to Jeff City?
I have not been able to figure that out. Possibly trying to save kids? I wish I knew. They (he) appears to have $... The amount of times they were both married is also curious...
Still searching.
Would a birthdate of Nov 29, 1993 be in the right range for AB?
Yes, it would be the right range.... She would be 15 almost 16 which would explain why I have seen 16 on some sites. Do you know the state of her birth? That would also make her mother 15 at the time of AB's birth. On an earlier thread, one of the sleuths mentioned her mother was married in NV. Good work if you have found it!
MDATCA
10-31-2009, 03:25 AM
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2333070/elizabeth_olten_case_15yearold_girl.html?cat=17
The quote is from thw second page of the article. I am really wondering what the extenuating "circumstances are. Any ideas?
The 15-year-old who killed or caused the death of 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten, according to her lawyer, has extenuating "circumstances." Barring the 15-year-old being mentally challenged to the point of not knowing right from wrong, however, it would be difficult to see what kind of
Elizabeth Olten Case: 15-Year-Old Girl Kills 9-Year-Old Girl, Police Suspect
Date: October 28, 2009
St. Martens, MO
United States of America "circumstances" could exist that would not have the judge render the decision to have the girl tried as an adult. That the 15-year-old suspect had the wherewithal to secrete the body in the woods implies mental presence of knowledge of right and wrong, which means that Valentine might be looking toward a non-nurturing environment as a defense for his client.
Just wondering if you have heard anything about what the grandparents to Jeff City from CA. Is either one or both of the grandparents from Jeff city originally? And were they attending church anywhere?
I am fairly sure that they moved to MO within the last five years, and that would coincide with both the mother of AB's eviction that shows up as her first court record, and the gps' custodial hearing for AB and her brothers. I am pretty sure the gf is from CA originally. He has a large family, and an ex-wife in California. I think the gm might be from TX, where she was first married to the bio father of AB's mother. I do not know the gm's maiden name. I do not know the gps' line of work. We do know that they recently built a new house, and I did see a testimonial by the couple on a local home coating and insulation site.
claudicici
10-31-2009, 04:02 AM
....this case really blows my mind.....I read a lot of posts earlier in the thread where people talked about blaming kids not learning consequences from their parents now which a lot of posters attributed to kids becoming more and more prone to commit violence....it's so sad,I think it's that there are just so many more parents now that did not want there children and just want to be left alone.....even the posters that said their parents spanked them,they knew their parents loved them and wanted the best for them.....I don't believe in spankings ( my dad spanked me once and I'm still mad about that :) )....and I really don't think kids are spoiled now,yes they are spoiled with material things,I live in a low income neighborhood yet every kid has a i-pod,cell phone,tv,laptop and brand name clothes....but there's hardly a kid whose parents have time for them and many kids where its obvious they weren't even wanted and are just a nuisance to the parents.....and it's not just in low income neighborhoods...I work in ahotel in a rich neighborhood and I constantly see kids running around while their parents are at the galas with $100 bills shopping in the gift shop but the parents don't care where they are...it's just sad.I really think even though ab had a lot of material stuff,she knew her mom didn't care what was going on with her.
How are kids that are not cared about supposed to cre about others?
Money Girl
10-31-2009, 04:56 AM
Yes, it would be the right range.... She would be 15 almost 16 which would explain why I have seen 16 on some sites. Do you know the state of her birth? That would also make her mother 15 at the time of AB's birth. On an earlier thread, one of the sleuths mentioned her mother was married in NV. Good work if you have found it!
This birth was in TX, but it is probably not the right one since I don't know her mother's name.
danni
10-31-2009, 08:23 AM
I really think even though ab had a lot of material stuff,she knew her mom didn't care what was going on with her.
How are kids that are not cared about supposed to cre about others?
Thinking this way, PLEASE, explain to me how ANY child that came from foster care or an orphanage ever became a productive member of society?
Yes I will admit that for a portion of her life I am sure she has had parents that didn't give two sh!%s as to where she was at, who she was with, what she was doing, that she had food in her belly, a roof over her head, clothes on her back, or shoes on her feet! BUT people have had WAYYYYY worse backgrounds then AB and they have NOT killed.
Bibliophile
10-31-2009, 09:02 AM
Thinking this way, PLEASE, explain to me how ANY child that came from foster care or an orphanage ever became a productive member of society?
Yes I will admit that for a portion of her life I am sure she has had parents that didn't give two sh!%s as to where she was at, who she was with, what she was doing, that she had food in her belly, a roof over her head, clothes on her back, or shoes on her feet! BUT people have had WAYYYYY worse backgrounds then AB and they have NOT killed.
I agree Danni and its why I posted earlier about the "blame the parents" mentality, how its hurt society much more than its helped and how it simply can't account for human behavior.
I was horribly neglected as an infant and have been on my own since I was 14. I've never intentionally hurt anyone in my life and certainly have no desire whatsoever to commit a brutal murder.
I know that kids with challenging backgrounds have it harder but what AB did was not simply an "acting out." It goes way beyond the delinquency level of most neglected and unloved kids. Her parents certainly didn't help - but they are not to blame.
sweets
10-31-2009, 09:14 AM
This birth was in TX, but it is probably not the right one since I don't know her mother's name.
A. B. has a parent currently incarcerated for a felony. You can browse to: Search for: Missouri Department of Corrections Offender Search Search by the name Caesar B. to get a better idea of the type of family we are talking about here.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2333070/elizabeth_olten_case_15yearold_girl.html?cat=17&com=2&com=1#comments
Money Girl and all seems like you all are doing a great job researching this. Maybe this tidbit of info can lead u in the right direction. I am not a good sleuth at all so what I do find I will bring here. TYIA for all the assistance..
jmo ..sweets
gliving
10-31-2009, 09:39 AM
From the guardianship records (before they were pulled), there were 2 addresses listed for the grandparents house. One 600something, one 200something. I thought it was weird, but I checked the property records and they own 2 parcels of land. One had the house & lake, the other was just land. I believe from reading here the new house was built technically on the other parcel of land so it would have different numbering.
I wonder what bank holds the mortgage to the property. Someone is going to be out big money. I can't see the family moving back in, and no one would ever buy the property with it's history. Would it go into foreclosure?
Do you think the family was told to leave the house? It would seem it's possibly part of a crime scene and LE is probably going through it with a fine tooth comb.
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