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Soulmagent
11-23-2009, 10:49 AM
I read a book in which this case reminds me. Murder in Maybury. The woman who was murdered had alot of similar traits that is has been stated Joe Neff had.
The book is a true story account of Ann Brasons murder. She was wealthy and loaned family memebers money often. She was close with her family with no known emenies. Owned her own bussiness.
The method of murder is very different but the desciptions of the victims are very much alike.

rccook555
11-23-2009, 11:45 AM
BBM
Did I miss something? Where did this info come from?
I have found a bit of info but i am checking with Tricia before posting it. I do not want to violate tos.

rccook555
11-23-2009, 02:51 PM
I have found a bit of info but i am checking with Tricia before posting it. I do not want to violate tos.

Ok, after speaking with Tricia i am not going to post any info or the g/f name. Her name has not been mentioned any where in print , nor has she been named as a suspect. I do not want to violate tos. If Tricia decides it is relevant to the case i will post her initials and the info. Until then, i am sure some good sluething could figure out who she is. Sorry all!

Wudge
11-23-2009, 05:04 PM
This is from Topix - one of the Jody posts - They said that Joe's arms were taped and that they are not sure about his legs.

~snip~

Jimmy wrote:
What I didn't say, and what I was trying to say is that both Joe and Jodie's murders involve these two mountain ranges. That's one simialarity right there. But,was Jody brought there or lured there? Big difference.

I would have to say brought there, considering the Me thinks she was dead when left on top of the mountain, but those are good questions and Joe arms (not sure about the legs) were taped and he was shot in the head. I believe one of his relatives that was on this site not too many pages ago, wondered why he was taped after he was killed.... don't understand that one myself either.


I had asked early on if his hands were tied. If so, I believe it's very unlikely that he was killed in his bar.

His truck was found at the bar as was his hat. Bar robbers would have no real need to remove a bartender or owner's dead body from their bar.

It would seem more natural to think there was a fight at the bar that knocked Joe's hat to the ground, and he was subdued and his hands (or arms) were taped. He is then taken in the criminal's vehicle (red pick-up truck?) to Joe's home where they force him to help them open the safe. The contents are removed and they drive Joe to the strip mine area where he is murdered. And the rain washes away any potential tire tracks that might otherwise have been found.

Debbie Miller
11-23-2009, 06:29 PM
I had asked early on if his hands were tied. If so, I believe it's very unlikely that he was killed in his bar.

His truck was found at the bar as was his hat. Bar robbers would have no real need to remove a bartender or owner's dead body from their bar.

It would seem more natural to think there was a fight at the bar that knocked Joe's hat to the ground, and he was subdued and his hands (or arms) were taped. He is then taken in the criminal's vehicle (red pick-up truck?) to Joe's home where they force him to help them open the safe. The contents are removed and they drive Joe to the strip mine area where he is murdered. And the rain washes away any potential tire tracks that might otherwise have been found.

Good Scenerio- but how do you explain that Joe was still coherent enough to help the robbers open the safe when there was alot of blood at the bar. The police probably didn't emphasize what the amount of blood meant when they said "alot of blood". There are certain things LE won't say and for specific reasons, mainly because only the killer will know those certain things.

JMO

missingmydad
11-24-2009, 02:54 AM
http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt

I ran across this earlier and I didn't know if it was already posted on here. This really tells a lot about my dad. The kind of person he was and what he loved. I still do not think dad ever came back to his house. We found no blood anywhere. Just my opinion. I think they might have exchanged info via cell phones. That way the driver could already be in route to the strip pit. But this is my opinion only, and it has never amounted to anything before now. Thank you all for your ideas. Please keep 'em comin'!!!!

yosande
11-24-2009, 05:29 AM
and they knew his routine and when to catch him alone, i never thought his hours were that predictable, but he did go get the bar ready to open every day. but the time he showed up varied

Because the timeline is so tight, it seems to me that someone did know his routine and was waiting for him.

I also read there was signs of a scuffle, so he fought the perp.

Do you know if he would lock the door after entering when first arriving, and unlock the door for the early customer, and other staff, or just leave it unlocked upon arrival?

Since he fought for his life, it sure seems to me the perp's dna and blood would have also been found at the scene. Have LE ever said he was murdered there?

Do you know if any blood was found in his home, especially around the safe?

Did he drive to work, and where was his auto located?

How far, in minutes, and distance is his house from the bar?

Did his gf live with him at his house, if not, is her residence far from the bar or house, and in which direction?

Did he ever fish near or around where he was located?

Did he know and get along with the owner of the strip pit where he was located?

Thinking back to that time, can you think of anyone who wasn't seen for a week or two after May 14, or who looked as though they had been in a fight, but said they were in a car accident, or had some other excuse for the bruises, and scratches on face and hands?

Did anyone say they had gone on vacation, a camping trip, etc after May 14, and returned late May, or early June?


tia.

yosande
11-24-2009, 05:47 AM
i wonder if dad got into safe everyday, it may have been broken into days before but that would be risky too, had he found it before, but then they could have left him alive. i just do not understand. even if it was or was not for money they could have left him alive, he would have gave them all the money or whatever. he was just too nice. i do not know about him holding something for someone. he was too smart to hve something illegal there he would have made an excuse as to why he couldn't hold it, he was not a stupid man. that is why this is so scary, he was the SMARTEST MAN I KNEW, he was too careful i cannot believe anyone could have snuck up and done this to him. he always paid attention to everything and everyone. he taught me to always be aware of what is going on around you, how did they do this without him suspecting something?

bbm, if it was someone he knew and trusted?

yosande
11-24-2009, 06:22 AM
Plus taking the body away to another location is taking a giant chance of being 'found out'. Why not just leave the body, unless it might lead to a suspect?

I don't know height and weight, but moving a live person is far easier than one who is deceased, and the timeline is 10 am, last seen to 11:45 am when the crime scene was found. The fight, and blood was found somewhere in the bar, I don't know where, at the door, or somewhere further inside?

Is there a back entrance where something could be loaded into a truck without being seen from the road?

Were there signs indicating someone unconscience was drug across a floor that would indicate the murder took place at the bar?

It's difficult to accept that he died inside the bar, and was then moved.
That doesn't make sense to me, unless he was killed at the door entrance. jmo

yosande
11-24-2009, 06:51 AM
The Broadway address is the main highway going through Poteau. The Country Club address was dads. It was probably my dads old shop address.
I know there are a lot of people that would have known that dad got the bar ready to open everyday, but everyone liked dad. He was friends with everyone, I cannot believe that anyone would have gotten mad enough to kill him. It just does not seem real. There are no enemies that I know of.
I am not sure which way they drove to the strip pit. There are 3 or 4 ways. 1. the hwy 59 to broadway going north, then east on hwy 112 to Pocola. 2. go south after leaving bar on hwy 59 turn on hwy 83 go east and go back way through Monroe, Gilmore, and Cameron, then onto 112 to Pocola. 3. go behind back side of bar to the old or new Wister hwy. then you could get on the bypass and it turns into 112. We just are not sure. If he was in the back of a truck how could no one see him all the way to Pocola? If he was bleeding surely they would not have put him in the trunk of a car.
If this was not premeditated then why would the killer already have a gun-with them-loaded and something to tie him up with or cover him with? this sounds planned to me.I liked the scenario of maybe dad noticed someone had broken into the bar and was going to confront them but would he have not told anyone? Wouldn't the le have found records if he had talked to someone suspicious. I still cannot believe that anyone could out wit him, he was just too smart, too careful, and too cautious. More than anyone I know, he was always aware of all his surroundings.
I honestly cannot come up with one good suspect. None of it make any sense. I know I always wonder if my kids and I are safe. Apparently they know dad, do they know us too? Will they kill again? Scary thought.....

Did your dad own a gun and keep one at the bar?

Since there was a fight in the bar, do you think the perp fought with your dad, and then remembered he had a gun?
Do you think if someone held him up with a gun, would he lunge at them or go willingly?


Did your dad usually carry money in his shirt pocket, and that much money?

Is there a reason why he would have been carrying that much money before the bar opened?

That's a lot of change for a register, and if it was change, it would be bulky enough to notice, so WHY was he carryng that much money in his pocket, and what were the denominations? Was he going to meet someone and loan them that money?

You said he loaned money to people all the time, how did those transactions usually transpire, ie, in private or public settings, for what purpose.


I think the answer may just be in the money in his pocket.

I think your dad knew the perp, and had an appointment to meet him/her that morning to loan them that cash.

Is it possible that your dad discovered something about someone he was going to loan money to, and your dad confronted him/her to encourage him/her to do the right thng, like turn himself into LE, such as embezzlement? moo

yosande
11-24-2009, 07:41 AM
There are quite a few cases like this, where the LE is tightlipped with the family, there is no physical evidence that can be linked to a suspect. It could be the LE are waiting for someone to start bragging of what they did. There are some cases where this happens. Unfortunately, not enough.

I hope they kept the clothes that your dad had on when he was found. There could be transfer fibers (evidence) there. If they moved his body, there is that, but not enough to know exactly who did it. There could be carpet fibers from the trunk if that is how they transported him to the pit.

No physical evidence, or dna found at the scene does not match anyone on their data base?

Does anyone know if LE has requested dna samples from anyone?

The article I read said LE had several persons of interest, dated May 14.

Debbie Miller
11-24-2009, 08:56 AM
No physical evidence, or dna found at the scene does not match anyone on their data base?

Does anyone know if LE has requested dna samples from anyone?

The article I read said LE had several persons of interest, dated May 14.

The evidence that they retrieved was not disclosed to the public from what the one article said. If they did by chance find dna that did not belong to Mr. Neff , say if he scratched his killer and had skin of the killer under his nails then mostlikely this person doesn't have a criminal record.

They may still have persons of interest but nothing that is linking them to the crime.

If there was alot of blood at the bar, I would say that it is likely Mr. Neff was killed there. "Single gunshot to the head" here this is all LE reveals as injuries to his body.

YellowDog
11-24-2009, 09:54 AM
I had asked early on if his hands were tied. If so, I believe it's very unlikely that he was killed in his bar.

His truck was found at the bar as was his hat. Bar robbers would have no real need to remove a bartender or owner's dead body from their bar.

It would seem more natural to think there was a fight at the bar that knocked Joe's hat to the ground, and he was subdued and his hands (or arms) were taped. He is then taken in the criminal's vehicle (red pick-up truck?) to Joe's home where they force him to help them open the safe. The contents are removed and they drive Joe to the strip mine area where he is murdered. And the rain washes away any potential tire tracks that might otherwise have been found.

This theory sounds very good to me. I, too, think he was killed at the strip pit.

Wudge
11-24-2009, 06:00 PM
http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt

I ran across this earlier and I didn't know if it was already posted on here. This really tells a lot about my dad. The kind of person he was and what he loved. I still do not think dad ever came back to his house. We found no blood anywhere. Just my opinion. I think they might have exchanged info via cell phones. That way the driver could already be in route to the strip pit. But this is my opinion only, and it has never amounted to anything before now. Thank you all for your ideas. Please keep 'em comin'!!!!

Here's a pretty strong inferential clue. If your Father's hands or arms were, indeed, taped. Then I would like to know if LE found the roll of tape that was used to immobilize your Father.

If LE did not find the tape, I suspect it's likely that the persons or person's who abducted and murdered your Father brought the tape with them for the purpose of doing just that. And if that's true, then you can cancel out a fight or other mishap that simply got out of hand. For bringing the tape into the bar would certainly have been part of a thought out plan, and in this case it would give strong evidence to premeditated murder.

What do you know about the tape? Did anyone from LE ask you or your family or the bar's employees before if your Father kept such tape in the bar? Or do you know for a fact that he did keep such tape in the bar?

sameole
11-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

Kimster
11-24-2009, 09:46 PM
Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee66/ms9267/Welcome%20to%20the%20Group/welcome-8.jpg

I hope you can help us find out who killed Joe! This case breaks my heart.

Nikki_2
11-24-2009, 11:28 PM
I might have this wrong or might not have read all of the info correctly, 2 things I can't move from is the time that the incident occured in the bar - from 11.20 - 11.40, I also don't believe that he was murdered there but badly wounded. And the safe with missing contents on Friday? I cannot put my finger on it but something with these 2 things do not seem right? I hope this makes sense

Roselvr
11-25-2009, 01:17 PM
http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt

I ran across this earlier and I didn't know if it was already posted on here. This really tells a lot about my dad. The kind of person he was and what he loved. I still do not think dad ever came back to his house. We found no blood anywhere. Just my opinion. I think they might have exchanged info via cell phones. That way the driver could already be in route to the strip pit. But this is my opinion only, and it has never amounted to anything before now. Thank you all for your ideas. Please keep 'em comin'!!!!

Love the picture of you and your dad.

I've read that link; it's beautifully written.

I am goona answer the question about the directions to the bar. There is a road that leads from hwy 59 right beside the bar, around it and then goes up behind it, and will lead you to the Old Wister Hwy. Or you can pass the Old Wister Hwy and keep going about 1 more mile and go to the new hwy. If you hit the new hwy turn right then you just drive until you get to the bypass just a couple of minutes. Then hop on bypass going north and you could stay on it all the way to Pocola.

I think the location I have on the map is wrong because I'm not seeing a road behind where the bar is. I'll see if I can find a better map program.

I sure wish nancy grace could catch wind of this story. I have emailed her and everyone else with an email address but it has to go through their legal department. So i guess it may take a while. If anyone out there has any connections with anyone let me know and i will give them the info they need to do they story, along with all the phone numbers to the osbi etc. So nancy grace, or diane sawyer, john walsh, if anyone of you out there are reading this please i am so serious, i am begging for help. Thank you and god bless each and every one of you that have taken your time to read this to help out for my dad. I can't thank you enough.

I have a few facebook friend that might be good.

Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

Welcome Jimmy! Glad you were able to get on.
(NJ Poster)
I sent you a friend request btw.

itsreenw
11-25-2009, 01:18 PM
MMD, I am so sorry for your loss. I do have a few questions...

Did your uncle that co-owned the bar go to the bar daily, too? Not much has been mentioned about his presence or participation in the bar's day to day operation. Did he give his opinion of what he thought may have happened? I'm also wondering if he could shed some light on the actual amount of money missing from your dad's safe, assuming profits from their jointly owned bar were kept in it. I still haven't found any articles explaining how they determined that thousands were missing from the safe.

Although your family was not close to the gf, has she at least contacted any of you to ask about developments in the case? Did she come to your dad's house at all while your family was staying there when you still just thought he was missing? Since we know he wouldn't have been answering his cell phone, seems she would have been looking high and low for him. Going by or waiting at his house, calling the home phone, etc... IF she believed he was only missing.

itsreenw
11-25-2009, 01:20 PM
Sorry, a couple more things.

IIRC, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for Joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for Joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with Joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man Joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

sameole
11-25-2009, 05:05 PM
I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

wfgodot
11-25-2009, 05:24 PM
Mr. Neff was actually found in a strip pit, which is not unlike a pond. Lots of them in the eastern parts of Oklahoma and Kansas. (See page 3, # 56-59)

Nikki_2
11-25-2009, 05:31 PM
Sorry, a couple more things.

IIRC, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for Joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for Joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with Joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man Joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

My thoughts are along that line, I was not sure if I could post about gf or not, in my previous post I mentioned that it all seems wrong the time in the bar and the safe robbery, I feel that it was someone who knew him pretty well, who would have had to be 100% sure of his movements and feel confident enougt to do what he/she/they did. I do not believe for a second that this was just random, and that someone just walked off the street to murder him and then to rob the safe. I read that the assault took place on Thursday and the robbery on Friday, is that not unusual?
I would like to be able to write my honest opinion but with respect towards the family and the fact that I perhaps would be crossing a line
-ITSCREENW - In my opinion your theory is excellent

Nikki_2
11-25-2009, 05:34 PM
I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

In regards to the distance, I don't think that anyone would risk having a body in their vehicle for a long time, what if they got pulled up, etc..

yosande
11-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Because the timeline is so tight, it seems to me that someone did know his routine and was waiting for him.

I also read there was signs of a scuffle, so he fought the perp.

Do you know if he would lock the door after entering when first arriving, and unlock the door for the early customer, and other staff, or just leave it unlocked upon arrival?

Since he fought for his life, it sure seems to me the perp's dna and blood would have also been found at the scene. Have LE ever said he was murdered there?

Do you know if any blood was found in his home, especially around the safe?

Did he drive to work, and where was his auto located?

How far, in minutes, and distance is his house from the bar?

Did his gf live with him at his house, if not, is her residence far from the bar or house, and in which direction?

Did he ever fish near or around where he was located?

Did he know and get along with the owner of the strip pit where he was located?

Thinking back to that time, can you think of anyone who wasn't seen for a week or two after May 14, or who looked as though they had been in a fight, but said they were in a car accident, or had some other excuse for the bruises, and scratches on face and hands?

Did anyone say they had gone on vacation, a camping trip, etc after May 14, and returned late May, or early June?


tia.


bumping my own post to say sorry for asking questions that were already answered in the thread, I just hadn't gotten to them yet.

Some questions haven't been answered yet though, so mmd, please read and post answers if possible.

Since you talked to your dad nearly every day, and we don't know him, it is my hope that by asking questions, we can open your mind to possiblities you haven't thought of yet.

Is it possible that your dad knew the woman who was killed around the same time, Jodie?
Or, because she is closer to your age, did you or your sister know her? tia

yosande
11-25-2009, 06:49 PM
I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

I don't know if anyone has said what was in the safe at his home, except LE.

The safe at the bar was not robbed, nor was his person, so if there was just personal info in his safe at home, I'm not sure he was robbed. But that is jmo at this time. :)

Welcome! I enjoyed reading your posts on the other site. I think your theory is interesting. :)

Nikki_2
11-25-2009, 07:32 PM
Very good question! Who knew about that safe?

Yes, who knew? and why was it discovered only on Friday that it had been robbed? Would someone not have noticed it on the Thursday?

Nikki_2
11-25-2009, 07:44 PM
Thanks for posting the link Dream.

My question, before the bar gets sold, is the family sure everything has been done inside to find out what happened?

I agree, I can understand the family's decision, but perhaps it is way too soon to sell, something could emerge from any corner, something that was missed previously. Even on this board there are cases where people have scanned certain areas for people or items and found nothing, only to have 'fresh eyes' finding or noticing something missed.

Even though it is hard to revisit the place where a loved one has been hurt or killed, I believe that there are probably still some clues there that will disappear forever if sold

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 12:40 AM
http://www.4029tv.com/news/21722884/detail.html

HERE IS A SHORT ARTICLE OF THE LATEST NEWS. IT AIRED TONIGHT AND I MISSED IT. THIS IS ALL THE ONLINE HAD, MY SISTER CALLED AND I LISTENED TO IT THOUGH. BASICALLY IT SAYS THAT THE FEDERAL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS DONATED OR FUNDED, WHATEVER, $500,000.00 TO FORM A COLD CASE UNIT. SPECIFICALLY THE "SOONER STATE", OKLAHOMA, FOR THE MURDER OF THE 2 LITTLE GIRLS FOUND SHOT TO DEATH IN WELEETKA. I HOPE AND PRAY THAT THIS IS GOING TO HELP MY DADS CASE AND JODYS TOO.

OKAY I NOTICED A FEW QUESTIONS I WILL ANSWER THOSE THEN GO BACK AND READ IT AND GET CAUGHT UP.
WE DID SEE THAT THE DOOR WAS CLOSED AND LOCKED ON THURSDAY WHEN HE WENT MISSING, AS DID THE LE. BUT SINCE THE HOUSE LOOKED TOTALLY UNDISTURBED AND HE WAS STILL "MISSING" NO SIGNS OF BREAK IN. THE NEXT DAY WE HAD LOOKED FOR HOURS AND HOURS. MET BACK AT THE HOME TO BRIEF EACH OTHER ON LOCATIONS THAT WE HAD COVERED. ONCE THERE, WE WERE ALL TALKING AND SOMEONE ASKED IF MAYBE HE COULD BE IN THE LOCKED ROOM. SO WE CHECKED, DISCOVERED THE SAFE, CALLED SHERIFFS OFFICE AND OSBI CAME IMMEDIATELY.
THE OSBI HAS RELEASED THE BAR. THEY HAVE COLLECTED EVERYTHING THAT PERTAINS TO THE INVESTIGATION, SO WE HAVE KEPT IT CLOSED AND LOCKED UP FOR OVER 6 MONTHS NOW "JUST IN CASE" BUT NOW WE FEEL IT IS TIME TO GET THAT PART OF THE NIGHTMARE BEHIND US.
MY DAD WAS FOUND IN A STRIP PIT. IT IS AN OLD MINE, THAT HAS FILLED WITH WATER. IT LOOKS LIKE A POND AND ON THE GOOGLE MAPS I ACTUALLY CAN SEE WHERE IT IS. IT LOOKS VERY VERY CLOSE TO THE RIVER. I PRAISE GOD THEY DID NOT THROW HIM IN THERE OR WE MIGHT NEVER HAVE FOUND HIM. CAN YOU IMAGINE?
JODY WAS NOT FOUND IN WATER. SHE WAS FOUND DUMPED ON THE EDGE OF A STATE PARK, IN THE WOODS. BY CHANCE A PARAGLIDER FLEW OVER HER AND THOUGHT IT WAS A TRASH BAG OR SOMETHING SO HE KEPT FLYING CLOSER UNTIL HE REALIZED IT WAS A BODY. HE THEN ALERTED THE AUTHORITIES. SHE DID HAVE HER RING ON. BUT HER VEHICLE WAS FOUND A COUPLE OF HOURS AWAY I THINK. PRETTY FAR ANYWAY.
SHE HAD JUST BEGAN SELLING AVON. I PRAY THAT HER MURDERER BE CAUGHT SOON AND PUNISHED TOO.
YOU CAN SEE THE MOUNTAIN WHERE JODY WAS FOUND FROM THE HILL WHERE THE BAR SITS. IT IS CALLED LONG LAKE HILL. THINK OF IT AS A TRIANGLE, THE BAR-POTEAU IS 1 CORNER, JODY FOUND HEAVENER- 2 CORNER, WISTER THE TOWN JODY LIVED IN 3 CORNER. IF YOU TAKE THE ROAD DOWN THE BACK SIDE OF THE BAR, YOU CAN GET TO WISTER. YOU CAN MAKE A BIG CIRCLE.
THANK YOU I AM GONNA GO CATCH UP NOW. HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE, AND TO ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS GOING TO HAVE THEIR 1ST THANKSGIVING WITHOUT YOUR LOVED ONE, I AM SORRY AND I PRAY THAT GOD WILL GIVE US ALL STRENGTH TO GET THROUGH IT.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 12:55 AM
mmd, i am so sorry for your loss. I do have a few questions...

Did your uncle that co-owned the bar go to the bar daily, too? Not much has been mentioned about his presence or participation in the bar's day to day operation. Did he give his opinion of what he thought may have happened? I'm also wondering if he could shed some light on the actual amount of money missing from your dad's safe, assuming profits from their jointly owned bar were kept in it. I still haven't found any articles explaining how they determined that thousands were missing from the safe.

Although your family was not close to the gf, has she at least contacted any of you to ask about developments in the case? Did she come to your dad's house at all while your family was staying there when you still just thought he was missing? Since we know he wouldn't have been answering his cell phone, seems she would have been looking high and low for him. Going by or waiting at his house, calling the home phone, etc... If she believed he was only missing.
ok my uncle and dad were in a welding business and 2 others over the years together. The bar my dad did on his own. I am unsure about the amount of money but apparently someone knew approx. I just do not know, and it never really mattered to me. I have never been concerned with the safe. I knew he had it but never gave it a 2nd thought.
Yes the gf did look for him as well. There were several hundred looking, and over a thousand that attended his funeral. She came by often the first week. Then i have spoke to her 3 times since august. I really do not know her. She did not live with dad, but she had been dating him about a year. She did stay the night with him on wed before he died.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:07 AM
because the timeline is so tight, it seems to me that someone did know his routine and was waiting for him.

I also read there was signs of a scuffle, so he fought the perp.

Do you know if he would lock the door after entering when first arriving, and unlock the door for the early customer, and other staff, or just leave it unlocked upon arrival?

Since he fought for his life, it sure seems to me the perp's dna and blood would have also been found at the scene. Have le ever said he was murdered there?

Do you know if any blood was found in his home, especially around the safe?

Did he drive to work, and where was his auto located?

How far, in minutes, and distance is his house from the bar?

Did his gf live with him at his house, if not, is her residence far from the bar or house, and in which direction?

Did he ever fish near or around where he was located?

Did he know and get along with the owner of the strip pit where he was located?

Thinking back to that time, can you think of anyone who wasn't seen for a week or two after may 14, or who looked as though they had been in a fight, but said they were in a car accident, or had some other excuse for the bruises, and scratches on face and hands?

Did anyone say they had gone on vacation, a camping trip, etc after may 14, and returned late may, or early june?


Tia.

ok i will answer in order i think. Yes someone had to know the routine. They could not have just happened upon him and this happen, i don't think anyway.
Yes there were signs of struggle, lots of blood, the le would not elaborate. I do not know much else about the crime scene. He did lock the door the second he walked in and it is a deadbolt and he left keys hanging in it. When employee got there he would go open it and lock it right back.
He did drive his tahoe to work and it was still sitting there with the keys in the ignition beside the bar where he always parks. He lives about 3 or so minutes from the bar.
Le does not say where he was murdered. No there was no blood at the home. I checked. The gf house is about 4 minutes in the other direction, so his house would be in the middle.
The owner of property and my dad may have heard each other names but no my dad has never been out there or knew him to my knowledge, i do not think that you can fish there, the owner keeps posted signs up and does not allow people on his property. I have heard that he sees everything that comes on his property.
Nobody that i am aware of was missing during that time frame but even if they were i may not have noticed, well i am sure i would not have noticed, i was sick with grief. I lost 20 pounds in one month. I really think that other people would have noticed that though. And so far i have not heard anything.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:14 AM
i don't know height and weight, but moving a live person is far easier than one who is deceased, and the timeline is 10 am, last seen to 11:45 am when the crime scene was found. The fight, and blood was found somewhere in the bar, i don't know where, at the door, or somewhere further inside?

Is there a back entrance where something could be loaded into a truck without being seen from the road?

Were there signs indicating someone unconscience was drug across a floor that would indicate the murder took place at the bar?

It's difficult to accept that he died inside the bar, and was then moved.
That doesn't make sense to me, unless he was killed at the door entrance. Jmo

my dad is very strong. Stocky, about 5'10" and about 200 pounds. He would not have left there without a fight, this i know for sure.the bar has a front door, and a side door, out the side door is where his car was parked, then a door on the other side toward the road, but no back door.
I dont know either, if i had just killed someone i think the least of my worries would be moving the body. But then again you cannot be a rational thinker or you would not have murdered in the first place. I just don;t understand them taking a chance driving 20 miles or so with a dead body, but i guess if you had somebody tied up you would still get arrested huh? They gambled, very risky, whoever this is i think is not afraid because they have done this before and have gotten away with it.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:18 AM
hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the jimmy that wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas i have had about this case and jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

hi there! Welcome jimmy, you can see the mountain top from out the front door porch at the bar, because it sits on a hill. Long lake hill. Google the map, it is 68155 hwy 59 south

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:24 AM
here's a pretty strong inferential clue. If your father's hands or arms were, indeed, taped. Then i would like to know if le found the roll of tape that was used to immobilize your father.

If le did not find the tape, i suspect it's likely that the persons or person's who abducted and murdered your father brought the tape with them for the purpose of doing just that. And if that's true, then you can cancel out a fight or other mishap that simply got out of hand. For bringing the tape into the bar would certainly have been part of a thought out plan, and in this case it would give strong evidence to premeditated murder.

What do you know about the tape? Did anyone from le ask you or your family or the bar's employees before if your father kept such tape in the bar? Or do you know for a fact that he did keep such tape in the bar?

we were never told if he was taped or tied or what. The le has been very tight lipped. That is fine. As long as they find who did this. But i have heard rumor in town that he was bound, so, take that however, i have heard it a lot, but i have heard that he was beaten and i have heard that he was not beat. I was not allowed to view his body, i begged, i wanted to make sure it was really my daddy, but they told me no. And they were not gonna give in...
I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:34 AM
sorry, a couple more things.

Iirc, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

i have never heard the 911 call, but they may be held as evidence. We still cannot have his hat or anything. She left 1st to go to her other job, yes she is the friend who saw him at 7. My husband drove by on his way to work and seen her leaving early. That scenario sounds very possible. They could have robbed the safe while he was paying the bill and stuff, then waited on him at the bar. Hmmmm...yes i think the osbi has all phone records. I agree, very strange that i did not know her, i actually was not really sure of her name the day he went missing. I had to ask again. I was just never around her enough. But my dad never never spoke a bad word about her. He said she was sure easy to get along with.
But i do not know anything about her, not really. I am not sure if he bought a car part or what that day. I think he was working on something at the bar, so it could have been a small piece of hardware even. The parts store is directly across the street where he paid his bill that morning. So he could have stopped there since it was convenient. I just do not know, i am sorry.

missingmydad
11-26-2009, 01:43 AM
bumping my own post to say sorry for asking questions that were already answered in the thread, i just hadn't gotten to them yet.

Some questions haven't been answered yet though, so mmd, please read and post answers if possible.

Since you talked to your dad nearly every day, and we don't know him, it is my hope that by asking questions, we can open your mind to possiblities you haven't thought of yet.

Is it possible that your dad knew the woman who was killed around the same time, jodie?
Or, because she is closer to your age, did you or your sister know her? Tia

no i did not know jody, and i asked my sister and she did not know here either, but she did not grow up here, and we did. I do know her aunt, she was my teacher, and i talk to her often. I have heard that jody had been to my dads bar, but i do not go out, i used to years ago but have not been there in almost 4 years. So i do not know if he knew her, but i do not think so. She went missing before he was killed and it was all over the news and i remember talking with him in disbelief about how dangerous this world has become. He never said he knew her or anything, so i assume he did not. She was quite a bit younger than me even, i think by 10 years or so, i am 38 i cannot remember her age.
Ask away, i will answer whati know, unfortunately, it isn't much.
But i will do what i can. Thank you

sameole
11-26-2009, 09:04 AM
Thank you MMD. Now, if someone out there can find out if you can see the mountain range from Jodie's house, it sure would point this towards a possible M.O. I can't tell what the name of the mountain range is north, north=east of her home, because I scribbled over it's name on my map. But again, my guess would be yes, you can. It would be nice to have someone verify that for me. In the end though, it still doesn't give you a suspect.

Roselvr
11-26-2009, 09:30 AM
THANK YOU I AM GONNA GO CATCH UP NOW. HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE, AND TO ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS GOING TO HAVE THEIR 1ST THANKSGIVING WITHOUT YOUR LOVED ONE, I AM SORRY AND I PRAY THAT GOD WILL GIVE US ALL STRENGTH TO GET THROUGH IT.

Wanted to check in real quick before I leave for the hospital - hubby was admitted Monday. Cancer of the throat/neck. He has a very bad infection in his feeding tube, stomach & mouth.

Just want to say to try to have as good as a dinner as you can today.
Your dad would want that for you.
He'd like you to enjoy the people you still have in your life; and think good thoughts about him on this day.

I have tears in my eyes for you. I know how hard it is for you today.
I know my own heart is hurting without my dad & husband.


(((HUGS)))


As far as his GF - I never met my mother in law until we'd been together about 4 - 5 years. I met her at their 50th anniversary party.



.

Debbie Miller
11-26-2009, 10:02 AM
I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

In this case, I would think the dna under fingernails would be the most worthy after being in water.

If he was placed in the pit and depending how much water, then more than likely any evidence would be destroyed by the water. But you never know what may have survived it.

Wudge
11-27-2009, 12:49 PM
we were never told if he was taped or tied or what. The le has been very tight lipped. That is fine. As long as they find who did this. But i have heard rumor in town that he was bound, so, take that however, i have heard it a lot, but i have heard that he was beaten and i have heard that he was not beat. I was not allowed to view his body, i begged, i wanted to make sure it was really my daddy, but they told me no. And they were not gonna give in...
I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

Yes, there would not be an expectation to find any 'touch' DNA. The only place a lab could hope to find touch DNA would be on tape that had been wrapped over itself; that is, if tape was, indeed, used on your Father's arms or hands.

Is there anyone in your family to whom LE has confided as regards some of this basic information on evidence they've obtained about your Father's murder?

It's one thing for LE to withhold letting out a critical piece of information or two that only the murderer would know, but it seems to me that they are keeping the family totally in the dark on most everything. If it were me, I would be forcing the issue -- as I described in prior posts. At a minimum, I would have an attorney make contact with whomever is heading up the case. You and your family have a right to know what progress they have made, if any. I would not wait for this to turn into a cold case.

sameole
11-27-2009, 04:09 PM
This gets back to the basic problem in Oklahoma, which are extraordinary laws designed to sheild the public of the truth. I didn't read the laws en toto, but after the attack on the Oklahoma federal building, your legislature put laws in place on the release of information to the public. You're fighting a uphill battle against the authorities there. A lawyer probabably is your only recourse as wudge said.

Carolina Girl
11-27-2009, 06:32 PM
I don't think a family member of the victim would be considered public, would they?

Missingmydad, my heart breaks for you, but I agree, there needs to be some way for you or someone in your Family to have more information. Which would not mean you could share it with us here. But there should be more that they can say to shine a small beam of light.

sameole
11-27-2009, 11:27 PM
Carolina Girl, I'am not sure either way on that one. But MMD talks as if they aren't telling her very much.

yosande
11-27-2009, 11:36 PM
mmd, I was wondering if you have talked to the customer who arrived before the gf/employee?

The impression I got was that the customer happened upon the scene, and went in search of your dad around the area, when the gf showed up. So having thought he saw the blood, I'm now thinking he couldn't get inside b/c the door was locked, so he went looking around outside. The gf showed up, unlocked the door, then they discovered the hat, blood, and whatever else caused them to think a scuffle occurred.
Also, did you talk to the gf about what she saw, or if she suspects anyone?
Also, is she still living in the area? Is she working somewhere?
I wonder if he had a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary, and if that might have been what was taken from the safe in the home?
ok, that is a wild imagination, with no basis to think it so. just covering all bases.

So do you know if she has bought a new car, or wearing nicer newer clothes.

I don''t have any reason to suspect her, and I don't, unless her and the customer have a history, moved there near the same time, and he has a new car and clothes too.

My thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. I'm truly sorry for your loss.

Vegas Bride
11-27-2009, 11:49 PM
During the time when your father was missing and everyone was looking for him, thinking back on it now, was there anybody who seemed overly annimated, putting themselves front and center of the search, someone who went above and beyond anyone else?
Someone wanting to know all the details of the search? Or someone who kept coming around after your father was found to perhaps find out all the information they could about how the investigation was going?

VB

Roselvr
11-28-2009, 10:55 AM
This gets back to the basic problem in Oklahoma, which are extraordinary laws designed to sheild the public of the truth. I didn't read the laws en toto, but after the attack on the Oklahoma federal building, your legislature put laws in place on the release of information to the public. You're fighting a uphill battle against the authorities there. A lawyer probabably is your only recourse as wudge said.

From what I know; the family has not been told much.
It's my guess that they are trying to keep as much quiet as they can because one never knows who would do something like this.

While I'm sure it stinks to not know; I do understand the reason.

Look at Jody's case; the paraglider says one thing while the family is saying otherwise. It's my opinion what the paraglider is saying was not supposed to be let out to the public.

I wonder if he had a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary, and if that might have been what was taken from the safe in the home?
ok, that is a wild imagination, with no basis to think it so. just covering all bases..

Girlfriend is too obvious. Situations like this, family is usually the 1st questioned.

As far as an insurance policy; MMD has said that after everything was paid from the insurance; there was not enough left to keep the bar running. So we know the kids were the beneficiary; or we assume.

When my dad passed away; I was accused of taking out my own policy on him; him changing his policy for me to be the beneficiary as well as there being more then 1 & I stole the 2nd..

If he was taped; that would help me make the most sense of everything.
Things do not add up here..



.

sameole
11-29-2009, 11:17 AM
These are from my old notes, and as far as I know they are still unsolved. They are not in order. All were found dead.

Feb 21, 2002- Hope Meek-valliant, Ok.

Between Aug 1999 and Jan, 2002
Jane Chafton, Found near Velma, Ok.
Cassandra Ramsey,Found near bridge, Jefferson county
Mandy Raite, Found in comanche County.

June, 1988-Mary Pewitt-Comanche County
July 1997-Ricky Lynn Gatewood/Debra Kay-Pontotoc County near Ada. Shot in Head
July 1997-Tiffany Johnston(my notes don't have a place.)
March 1997-Thomas Richard Humphers, Left home in Ada, Found in Lake Texoma, cumberland Cove Resort.
Feb. 1996-Danny Oakly/Doris Harris-Burned home, Delaware County.
June 1997-Found in Hominy Hotel.(I don't have the her name on my notes.)
May 1992- Wendy Camp, 6yr old Cynthia Britto, Sister-in-law Lisa Kregar, dissapeared near Shamrock.
Robert Austin Owens-Feb 4, 1991-healdton, Ok. Found shot at home.
August 11, 1997-Gerthie Carolina-found at home-seminole County, near Sasakwa, Ok.
June 23,1996-Janice Powers-found shot in her backyard-Caddo County.
Oct. 18,1998-Alexander S. Williams-found in trunk-Chickasha.
Sept.20,1997-Leah Rochelle Mahseet-body near Geary, Ok.
March 14, 1998- Leonard Dirickson-Last seen heading to Mobeetie, Tx.
Jan.5, 1981=Tracy Diane Neilson-found stabbed in Apt. Moore, Ok.
Nov. 12, 1988-Dwayne McCorkendale-Shot at truck stop near Chandler, Ok.
Dec. 30, 1999- Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible-Vinita. (I don't believe they ever found their bodies.)
Suddenly, the dates of unsolved murders jumps, and I believe this is actual.

Sept.22, 2006-Brette Wolfe, Seminole, Ok.
Dec. 25, 2007 Jack and Elaine Denny-Cherokee County
June 17, 2007-Pamela Purser-Lone Grove
Sept 17,2007-Jasmon Howell-Idabel
May 2, 2008 Johnny Lee-Altus, Ok.
Nov.27, 2007-Denice Stice-Ok. City-Lake Overholser.
May 2007-Skull Found north of Tulsa-Osage County.

These are by no means all of them, I left out the Weleetka girls, Frieda/Marie Dighton.

sameole
11-29-2009, 08:31 PM
MMD, I look at the picture of you and your father and I can tell he was very proud of you. I am only sorry that I will never get the chance to belly up at his place and hang out with him. It's one of my favorite hobbies. My following post is something I put together off of the OSBI website. I put them in order, something they can't seem to do. I have been very critical of them since the Weleetka girls, and actually had an OSBI agent hang up in my ear.( Not before I told him what I thought of him in a polite sort of way.) It was one of my proudest moments. I'll put my record up against anyones. There has and is a big problem out there. Sorry.

sameole
11-29-2009, 09:16 PM
As of last year, all of these kids were listed on the OSBI Website as missing. This is unacceptable. The OSBI needs to be disbanded.

4-20-06 Wewoka, Or./ Colt Clark/m/11
5-11-06 Oklahoma City/Sheila Guardyare/f/16
6-25-06 Kansas, Ok/Lajauna Reid/f/17
9-22-06 Tahlequah, Ok./Brittany Ransey/f/17
9-24-06 Clinton/David Santau/m/2
11-10-06 Muskogee/ Micheal Gross/BM/15
11-22-07 Lawton/Destiny Brown/F/16
2-22-07 McCaleser, Ok/Kimberly Felder/F/17
5-6-07 Norman, Ok/Starla Hudson////F/17
5-22-07 Fort Sill/Ashley Ussery/F/17
8-24-07 Edmond/Daniel Thompson/M/16
8-26-07 Bartlesville/Brookland Stewart/F/16
9-17-07 Ok City/Kerry Jones/F/15
10-21-07 Moore, Ok./Holden Cross/M/17
11-9-07 Tulsa/Cori Baker/F/13
1-21-08 Tulsa/Ana Bruno/13

For a long, long time after the Weleetka girls, this type of sudden disapearance of young kids came to a screeching halt. It can only be one of two things, and I will only tell you one of the possible reasons. I believe the OSBI stopped listing them.

missingmydad
11-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Thank you MMD. Now, if someone out there can find out if you can see the mountain range from Jodie's house, it sure would point this towards a possible M.O. I can't tell what the name of the mountain range is north, north=east of her home, because I scribbled over it's name on my map. But again, my guess would be yes, you can. It would be nice to have someone verify that for me. In the end though, it still doesn't give you a suspect.

Jody was found on Poteau Mountain, but we are surrounded by mountains and hills here. There is Sugarlaof Mountain in Monroe-Gilmore into Arkansas area. There is Cavanah but it is really the worlds highest hill. It is right along the edge of Poteau. There is Blue Mountain, and list goes on. Get a map off Google and compare it to yours. Sorry I am not that much help in geography. I just do not see how to tie her to my dad, other than they were killed within the week and a half of each other. I remember talking with dad about her death being on the news. He would have said something had he known her. I am sure of it. We had lost about 2 or 3 friends recently, and we talked about them dying and missing them. He never said anything to make me think he knew her at all.

missingmydad
11-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Yes, there would not be an expectation to find any 'touch' DNA. The only place a lab could hope to find touch DNA would be on tape that had been wrapped over itself; that is, if tape was, indeed, used on your Father's arms or hands.

Is there anyone in your family to whom LE has confided as regards some of this basic information on evidence they've obtained about your Father's murder?

It's one thing for LE to withhold letting out a critical piece of information or two that only the murderer would know, but it seems to me that they are keeping the family totally in the dark on most everything. If it were me, I would be forcing the issue -- as I described in prior posts. At a minimum, I would have an attorney make contact with whomever is heading up the case. You and your family have a right to know what progress they have made, if any. I would not wait for this to turn into a cold case.

THANK YOU- I AM JUST WORRIED THAT IF I MAKE THE WRONG PEOPLE (LE) MAD THEN WHAT IF THEY DO NOT WORK ON MY DADS CASE AS HARD. I WOULD JUST DIE IF I WERE THE REASON THAT THE KILLER STAYED FREE. I WILL CONTACT OUR ATTORNEY AND SEE WHAT HE SUGGESTS. I DO FEEL LIKE I AM IN THE DARK FOR SURE AND IT IS TAKING FOREVER. I WAS SO HOPING THAT THE KILLER(S) WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BY NOW. CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL OUT THERE WALKING AROUND AND COULD KILL AGAIN ANYDAY? I DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE A COLD CASE. I JUST DO NOT WANT TO MESS THIS INVESTIGATION UP. I AM SO AGGRAVATED. :furious:

missingmydad
11-29-2009, 11:25 PM
mmd, i was wondering if you have talked to the customer who arrived before the gf/employee?

The impression i got was that the customer happened upon the scene, and went in search of your dad around the area, when the gf showed up. So having thought he saw the blood, i'm now thinking he couldn't get inside b/c the door was locked, so he went looking around outside. The gf showed up, unlocked the door, then they discovered the hat, blood, and whatever else caused them to think a scuffle occurred.
Also, did you talk to the gf about what she saw, or if she suspects anyone?
Also, is she still living in the area? Is she working somewhere?
I wonder if he had a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary, and if that might have been what was taken from the safe in the home?
Ok, that is a wild imagination, with no basis to think it so. Just covering all bases.

So do you know if she has bought a new car, or wearing nicer newer clothes.

I don''t have any reason to suspect her, and i don't, unless her and the customer have a history, moved there near the same time, and he has a new car and clothes too.

My thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. I'm truly sorry for your loss.

the first customer was a regular and came often, the front door was unlocked-he walked right in. He saw dads truck there though. So he assumed dad was right there somewhere. He walked around a couple minuted then back out to dads truck back in again, then gf shows up, door still ulocked, door locks with dead bolt. I talked to gf she does not know anyone who didn't like dad either. She still lives in the same place and works in a local bar where all the bar maids from dads bar went to work after he was killed.she still drives the same vehicle too no i have not noticed her wearing any nicer clothes etc but i have not been around her. Or the customer either, i have not ever seen him again, but he still lives here, i think he has always lived around here. I have not seen gf but a couple of times over last 4 months.

missingmydad
11-29-2009, 11:34 PM
during the time when your father was missing and everyone was looking for him, thinking back on it now, was there anybody who seemed overly annimated, putting themselves front and center of the search, someone who went above and beyond anyone else?
Someone wanting to know all the details of the search? Or someone who kept coming around after your father was found to perhaps find out all the information they could about how the investigation was going?

Vb

very good question, but i was so out of my mind. I remember bits and pieces and then there are some things i can remember like it was 10 minutes ago. I remember standing at the bar door on friday, we all met there and were searching again. I stood there looking through the glass as if to just get one more glimpse of anything that would remind me of my dad. I was looking for blood or anything, i do not know why but i stood there and i remember sliding down the door. My legs totally gave out and i sat there and cried like a baby. And i did not even care about the world- all i cared about was my poor dad and where he was. He never would have left and made us worry, never, and i knew it. So i knew that it was something bad. I just didnt know what. I certainly didnt think someone would have killed him and dumped him. That is just sick. Who would do that? What kind of twisted person?
Anyway i do not think any one really made a spectacle of themselves, i think that anything suspicious my friends would have pointed that out to me later. Or family would have mentioned. So far i have not heard anything like that. I just wish i could remember the days right after, but maybe it is best that i don't remember. I just want to know who would do this.

missingmydad
11-29-2009, 11:45 PM
I wish that the le would tell us more. The only thing i can think of is that maybe they think it is one of the family members and if too much info gets out then it will go to the killer. We obviously do not want them to have any extra info. But i want to know more details so bad. I don't know why i think it will be better once i know. Knowing the details is not going to bring my dad back but it could get the crazy person off the street. I will call the attorney and just ask what is legal for me to find out. Then i will call and see what they tell me. Usually it is they are still following up on leads or whatever but nothing detailed. Even when i ask specifics i get very vague answers and i do not know where to direct the conversation from there. Aahhhh!! Drives me crazy, please wish me luck everyone, thanks!

Carolina Girl
11-30-2009, 12:04 AM
Oh yes, good luck. I sent you a message.

Roselvr
11-30-2009, 07:14 AM
the first customer was a regular and came often, the front door was unlocked-he walked right in. He saw dads truck there though. So he assumed dad was right there somewhere. He walked around a couple minuted then back out to dads truck back in again, then gf shows up, door still ulocked, door locks with dead bolt. I talked to gf she does not know anyone who didn't like dad either. She still lives in the same place and works in a local bar where all the bar maids from dads bar went to work after he was killed.she still drives the same vehicle too no i have not noticed her wearing any nicer clothes etc but i have not been around her. Or the customer either, i have not ever seen him again, but he still lives here, i think he has always lived around here. I have not seen gf but a couple of times over last 4 months.

For your own piece of mind, maybe you are ready to speak to both of them about the blood/bar? You do not have to share it here; but if you knew how much blood was there; and where it was located, it might help you to know that yes, he passed there or no he did not.

The longer you wait, the less they will remember.

HUGS.


.

Wudge
11-30-2009, 09:26 AM
THANK YOU- I AM JUST WORRIED THAT IF I MAKE THE WRONG PEOPLE (LE) MAD THEN WHAT IF THEY DO NOT WORK ON MY DADS CASE AS HARD. I WOULD JUST DIE IF I WERE THE REASON THAT THE KILLER STAYED FREE. I WILL CONTACT OUR ATTORNEY AND SEE WHAT HE SUGGESTS. I DO FEEL LIKE I AM IN THE DARK FOR SURE AND IT IS TAKING FOREVER. I WAS SO HOPING THAT THE KILLER(S) WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BY NOW. CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL OUT THERE WALKING AROUND AND COULD KILL AGAIN ANYDAY? I DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE A COLD CASE. I JUST DO NOT WANT TO MESS THIS INVESTIGATION UP. I AM SO AGGRAVATED. :furious:


I appreciate your concern.

At a minimum, have your attorney request a review of the evidence upon which LE based their decision that your Father's safe had been robbed. His estate has a right to know how much LE deems to have been stolen -- your Father's home insurance policy might well cover some or all of the amount stolen.

It would also be excellent if they would confirm whether or not his hands or arms were taped and, if so, did LE recover the roll of tape.

YellowDog
11-30-2009, 02:33 PM
Missingmydad, has LE ever said positively that the blood in the bar was your father's blood?

Roselvr
11-30-2009, 07:47 PM
At a minimum, have your attorney request a review of the evidence upon which LE based their decision that your Father's safe had been robbed. His estate has a right to know how much LE deems to have been stolen -- your Father's home insurance policy might well cover some or all of the amount stolen.

Very good point

It would also be excellent if they would confirm whether or not his hands or arms were taped and, if so, did LE recover the roll of tape.

One thing I have to say is I highly doubt recovering the roll would do anything. What we see on TV with them comparing how the tape was ripped or cut; doesn't happen in real life from what I know.


.

missingmydad
12-01-2009, 12:48 AM
i appreciate your concern.

At a minimum, have your attorney request a review of the evidence upon which le based their decision that your father's safe had been robbed. His estate has a right to know how much le deems to have been stolen -- your father's home insurance policy might well cover some or all of the amount stolen.

It would also be excellent if they would confirm whether or not his hands or arms were taped and, if so, did le recover the roll of tape.

i did call the insurance company just to check if any amount would be covered and they only cover up to $200.00 if it was cash stolen. Funny huh? The deductible is more than that. We still do not have medical examiner report. I have called and they stated that it cold take anywhere from 3-6 months, but we are over that now. The toxicology reports are not finished. So who knows. I figure that a lot of details may be in that but some i may not want to hear. I am afraid to see it when it does get released.

missingmydad
12-01-2009, 12:52 AM
missingmydad, has le ever said positively that the blood in the bar was your father's blood?

i do not think i ever heard them say but i did offer dna the day he went missing and they already had the info they needed. So i assume they know for sure. I know i have heard it somewhere, but i would have to ask to be certain where i heard it.

Roselvr
12-01-2009, 06:32 AM
i do not think i ever heard them say but i did offer dna the day he went missing and they already had the info they needed. So i assume they know for sure. I know i have heard it somewhere, but i would have to ask to be certain where i heard it.

speak to the new task force. Ask why they don't need your DNA and how they know who's blood it was.

Wudge
12-01-2009, 07:49 AM
Very good point



One thing I have to say is I highly doubt recovering the roll would do anything. What we see on TV with them comparing how the tape was ripped or cut; doesn't happen in real life from what I know.


.

I don't disagree. However, my interest in the tape is, first, to verify that tape was, indeed, used to retrain Mr. Neff's arms. Second, I want to know if they found the roll of tape and if so, where? Was it tape that was kept in the bar?

If the murderers brought the tape with them, we can cancel out any thought that what took place -- murder and a likely kidnapping and home robbery -- did not stem from a plan.

sameole
12-01-2009, 10:09 AM
You had mentioned that your father had recently sold his trash business. What are the folks like that he sold it to? Are they from that area?

Roselvr
12-01-2009, 02:08 PM
I don't disagree. However, my interest in the tape is, first, to verify that tape was, indeed, used to retrain Mr. Neff's arms. Second, I want to know if they found the roll of tape and if so, where? Was it tape that was kept in the bar?

If the murderers brought the tape with them, we can cancel out any thought that what took place -- murder and a likely kidnapping and home robbery -- did not stem from a plan.

Thanks; wasn't sure which way you were going with wanting to know about the tape.

Depending on what type of tape it was; it could have been in someone's car. I'm pretty sure I have a roll of duct tape in mine.

If his hands were taped; I'd also want to know if his hands were behind his back; because to me, I'd think someone put him in a trunk and wanted to make sure he did not use his hands to get out. I also wonder if it was the gunshot that killed him or if he was wounded and the water finished it.

To me, I'd imagine he would kick whatever was on top of him (such as truck bed cover) to try to get out if he was conscious. I can't see them driving with him at that time of the day in the open.



Missingmydad, sorry to be so graphic. Writing it is not easy for me; it rips my heart out just trying to find the words to type, knowing that you are here reading. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to read. Please know that whatever I do type; I do so with a very heavy heart. These are the 1st holiday's without your dad which is hard enough on you; to try to come here, read and give input really has to wipe you out emotionally. You know where to "find me" if you need to talk.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1083&pictureid=9045


.

missingmydad
12-01-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't disagree. However, my interest in the tape is, first, to verify that tape was, indeed, used to retrain Mr. Neff's arms. Second, I want to know if they found the roll of tape and if so, where? Was it tape that was kept in the bar?

If the murderers brought the tape with them, we can cancel out any thought that what took place -- murder and a likely kidnapping and home robbery -- did not stem from a plan.

very true, if they planned it they would have brought all items they needed with them ex: gun, whatever...so then we would know if they had arranged the meeting, not just an argument gone bad.

missingmydad
12-01-2009, 03:06 PM
You had mentioned that your father had recently sold his trash business. What are the folks like that he sold it to? Are they from that area?

my sister and her husband bought it several years ago. so its not about that.

missingmydad
12-01-2009, 03:17 PM
thanks; wasn't sure which way you were going with wanting to know about the tape.

Depending on what type of tape it was; it could have been in someone's car. I'm pretty sure i have a roll of duct tape in mine.

If his hands were taped; i'd also want to know if his hands were behind his back; because to me, i'd think someone put him in a trunk and wanted to make sure he did not use his hands to get out. I also wonder if it was the gunshot that killed him or if he was wounded and the water finished it.

To me, i'd imagine he would kick whatever was on top of him (such as truck bed cover) to try to get out if he was conscious. I can't see them driving with him at that time of the day in the open.



missingmydad, sorry to be so graphic. Writing it is not easy for me; it rips my heart out just trying to find the words to type, knowing that you are here reading. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to read. Please know that whatever i do type; i do so with a very heavy heart. these are the 1st holiday's without your dad which is hard enough on you; to try to come here, read and give input really has to wipe you out emotionally. You know where to "find me" if you need to talk.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1083&pictureid=9045


.

don't worry. Yes it is very hard but i am determined to figure this out. Any questions, please ask. I know that it is graphic, but the reality is this monster shot and killed my dad and dumped him like trash. I know it, i would rather know the truth than wonder, even though the truth is terrible. The horrible things i imagine are worse
ok- the death certificate states that cause of death was gunshot wound to head. So water did not do it. I don't have me report but the dc indicates he was dead when he hit water, praise god. I worried about that day and night for weeks, scared they threw him in the water and drowned him, horrible. We had heard a few witnesses saw red truck, no word of bed cover etc, but no mention of car, i wonder if a car did come and he was put in trunk. I find it hard to see how they made it all that way with dad in bed of truck..?..! I thank you all for your efforts, keep them questions coming, i will do my best to answer. Thank you so much to all of you from the bottom of my heart.

Wudge
12-01-2009, 03:51 PM
very true, if they planned it they would have brought all items they needed with them ex: gun, whatever...so then we would know if they had arranged the meeting, not just an argument gone bad.

Exactly.

This is why I previously asked for an understanding of how LE determined that the safe in the house was truly robbed as well as how LE determined exactly how much was taken.

As regards the duct tape, if you talk to the barmaids, they would likely know if duct tape was kept in the bar.

Someone in the family should try to independently collect all the information they can on behalf of the family. It's absurd that LE is keeping most everything in the way of probative or inferential evidence from the family and not providing progress reports to boot.

FWIW

rccook555
12-02-2009, 11:19 AM
Bumping back up to first page

mysticrose
12-02-2009, 11:24 AM
Task force sought for Le Flore County's pending cases
Homicide: Police want new ideas for unsolved slayings
BY RON JACKSON
Published: December 2, 2009


POTEAU — Le Flore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt put aside any territorial pride by creating a task force to explore the homicide of Poteau bar owner Joe Neff and the "suspicious death” of Jody Rilee Wilson. Both cases date to May and both remain unsolved.


"I’m not interested in any turf war,” said Curnutt, referring to police jurisdiction.

"No one gains anything then except the bad guys. I think we’re all just interested in justice for the families of those victims.

"We just got to the point where all the leads were drying up. We needed to get some new ideas flowing.”

Curnutt and the new task force will meet Friday for the first time since forming and exchanging notes last month. The task force involves representatives from five agencies: the FBI, the U.S. Marshal’s Office, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, the Le Flore County district attorney’s office and the Le Flore County sheriff’s office.

"I cried when I first heard the news,” said Marie Pitchford, the older of Neff’s two daughters.

"My life has changed in ways I never imagined. I still haven’t returned to work, and I never go out after dark. I don’t go to the movie theater, the grocery store, nothing. I won’t even go to Walmart after dark.


Read more: http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee#ixzz0YY7As9fx

Angels_Not_Forgotten
12-02-2009, 11:58 AM
don't worry. Yes it is very hard but i am determined to figure this out. Any questions, please ask. I know that it is graphic, but the reality is this monster shot and killed my dad and dumped him like trash. I know it, i would rather know the truth than wonder, even though the truth is terrible. The horrible things i imagine are worse
ok- the death certificate states that cause of death was gunshot wound to head. So water did not do it. I don't have me report but the dc indicates he was dead when he hit water, praise god. I worried about that day and night for weeks, scared they threw him in the water and drowned him, horrible. We had heard a few witnesses saw red truck, no word of bed cover etc, but no mention of car, i wonder if a car did come and he was put in trunk. I find it hard to see how they made it all that way with dad in bed of truck..?..! I thank you all for your efforts, keep them questions coming, i will do my best to answer. Thank you so much to all of you from the bottom of my heart.

HI missingmydad, I was wondering, after your dad was discovered, and reports of a red truck circulated, do you know if they tried to see if any evidence (blood specifically) was washed out in a car wash? if any evidence may have been in the car wash? I'm just thinking...if someone transported and the vehicle that is a personal vehicle was messy, would they take the chances of washing it off at home and leaving evidence? even if they took it to the car wash, would it be possible to get evidence that way? anyone know?

rccook555
12-02-2009, 12:11 PM
I am trying to figure out why he was dumped in Pocola. Why 20 miles away? Wondering if the killer/s where on their way to Fort Smith and it just happened to be a spot they where familiar with. Why take him that far away? There is plenty of desolate places between Poteau and Pocola. I dont think they were trying very hard to conceal him. They were either really stupid or didnt care if he was found. It is like they were just buying a bit of time before he would be found.

rccook555
12-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Sheriff Bruce Curnutt put aside any territorial pride by creating a task force to explore the homicide of Poteau bar owner Joe Neff (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Joe+Neff&CATEGORY=PERSON) and the "suspicious death” of Jody Rilee Wilson (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Jody+Rilee+Wilson&CATEGORY=PERSON). Both cases date to May and both remain unsolved.



I’m not interested in any turf war,” said Curnutt, referring to police jurisdiction. "No one gains anything then except the bad guys. I think we’re all just interested in justice for the families (http://www1.flexysearch.com/trf_split.php?query=justice+for+the+families) of those victims








Snipped
In the Neff case, Curnutt thinks the FBI can provide some technical "toys" that might help better explore an old mining pit where the 61-year-old’s body was found May 17 by fishermen.
snipped

His home safe had been opened with thousands of dollars suspected missing, but thousands more still present. Later, when Neff’s body was pulled from the mining strip, Curnett watched as $740 was removed from his shirt pocket.

We’re starting to think now that the murder and robbery of the safe might be two seperate events,” Curnett said.

Posted Dec 2. More at link..
http://newsok.com/task-force-sought-for-le-flore-countys-pending-cases/article/3421922?custom_click=lead_story_title







Bolded by me

Debbie Miller
12-02-2009, 01:54 PM
His home safe had been opened with thousands of dollars suspected missing, but thousands more still present. Later, when Neff’s body was pulled from the mining strip, Curnett watched as $740 was removed from his shirt pocket.


We’re starting to think now that the murder and robbery of the safe might be two seperate events,” Curnett said.


Posted Dec 2. More at link..
http://newsok.com/task-force-sought-for-le-flore-countys-pending-cases/article/3421922?custom_click=lead_story_title






Bolded by me

The fact that thousands more were still present points toward Mr. Neff being in that safe before this incident happened and he just didn't close the door or someone close tried to make it look like robbery. I feel strongly about "it was Mr. Neff" just left the door open. Robbery was definately not the motive here. The person who did this horrific crime whether they pulled the trigger or not has gone out of their way to keep the attention (suspicion) off of themselves.

Missingmydad,

Is there a time of death on the death certificate?

wfgodot
12-02-2009, 02:04 PM
The fact that thousands more were still present points toward Mr. Neff being in that safe before this incident happened and he just didn't close the door or someone close tried to make it look like robbery. I feel strongly about "it was Mr. Neff" just left the door open. Robbery was definately not the motive here. The person who did this horrific crime whether they pulled the trigger or not has gone out of their way to keep the attention (suspicion) off of themselves.

Missingmydad,

Is there a time of death on the death certificate?

Good points. I agree the safe wasn't burgled. But if he had taken a significant amount of money out of the safe, could he have been carrying that money the morning he opened the bar, expecting to meet someone to purchase an item, and the seller decided to get the money without delivering the goods?

Carolina Girl
12-02-2009, 02:29 PM
MMD, did you know about the thousands more in the safe? Sorry if you have already said and I missed it.

Roselvr
12-02-2009, 02:49 PM
His home safe had been opened with thousands of dollars suspected missing, but thousands more still present. Later, when Neff’s body was pulled from the mining strip, Curnett watched as $740 was removed from his shirt pocket.

We’re starting to think now that the murder and robbery of the safe might be two seperate events,” Curnett said.

Interesting that they are now giving the safe information out BUT Marie has not been told this; unless she does know but was asked not to say anything.

Horrible if they are giving newspapers the info before family.

As far as the safe & it not being related.. wonder if they are reading here.

.

Wudge
12-02-2009, 03:24 PM
Missingmydad,

The new task force referred to in the story on link below is a perfect opportunity for you and/or someone in the family to obtain basic case information. Stop in to see the Sherriff and let him know you would like to meet with the task force for 15 minutes or so every two weeks.

http://newsok.com/task-force-sought-for-le-flore-countys-pending-cases/article/3421922?custom_click=lead_story_title

Once and for all, find out as much as you can about how the alleged robbery of the safe was determined as well as how much the task force deems to have been stolen.

As discussed, clear up the tape rumor. And if tape was used, was the source a roll of tape from your Father's bar?

Plus, nail down exactly where your Father was shot.

Roselvr
12-02-2009, 03:45 PM
Task force sought for Le Flore County's pending cases (http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee#ixzz0YZ8ZHEWl) News OK.com


I want to point out that it looks like Jody's dad used his political pull to get the task force going


~Snip~

"People need to realize the killer is still out there. I just pray some day we’ll have answers, and maybe this task force is what it will take.”

Jim Rilee, who is Wilson’s father, said he lobbied long and hard for a multi-agency task force.

"I know this: It won’t hurt,” Rilee said from his New Jersey home.

"I worked very hard getting this together, and I think the resources available to the FBI will be helpful, as opposed to the limited resources available to the OSBI in that region. The bottom line is more people will be involved.

"I just hope now that the FBI is involved more people will look at this case.”

Donald Wilson, Jody Wilson’s husband, is among those who have been questioned by investigators. He said he was out of state at the time of his wife’s disappearance with the couple’s infant daughter, who is now 10 months old.

"He (Donald Wilson) has been interviewed twice,” Curnutt confirmed. "Since then, he has retained an attorney and is refusing to talk further.”

Also -

"Some of the family members have even pointed fingers over the safe.”

Pitchford said "only a few people” had the combination to her father’s safe, but none would have hurt him.

"As for the safe, my sister (Shawna Martin) and I didn’t know the combination,” Pitchford said.

"But was the safe the motive behind the murder? Or was it opened to make it look like a robbery?”

Debbie Miller
12-02-2009, 05:09 PM
Good points. I agree the safe wasn't burgled. But if he had taken a significant amount of money out of the safe, could he have been carrying that money the morning he opened the bar, expecting to meet someone to purchase an item, and the seller decided to get the money without delivering the goods?

It is really hard to say how much he originally had in the safe, it is kind of looking as if he is the only one to know. Meeting someone to buy something is a good possibility. The cell phone records need to be gone over again with a fine tooth comb, if this is the scenerio. The fact that Mr. Neff still had $750.00 in his shirt pocket is a red flag, meaning if someone is going to rob another and kill them or seriously injure them, wouldn't they search all pockets for all the money or goods they could get? I wonder what type of shirt Mr. Neff was wearing did the pocket have a button to secure what was in the pocket? If not, with moving the body to remove Mr. Neff from the crime scene would seem the money would have fell out of the pocket or at least shown at the edge.

Just my thoughts.

wfgodot
12-02-2009, 05:25 PM
It is really hard to say how much he originally had in the safe, it is kind of looking as if he is the only one to know. Meeting someone to buy something is a good possibility. The cell phone records need to be gone over again with a fine tooth comb, if this is the scenerio. The fact that Mr. Neff still had $750.00 in his shirt pocket is a red flag, meaning if someone is going to rob another and kill them or seriously injure them, wouldn't they search all pockets for all the money or goods they could get? I wonder what type of shirt Mr. Neff was wearing did the pocket have a button to secure what was in the pocket? If not, with moving the body to remove Mr. Neff from the crime scene would seem the money would have fell out of the pocket or at least shown at the edge.

Just my thoughts.

Excellent points. At first I thought that leaving the money in the pocket was a message that this was personal and Mr. Neff wasn't killed for his money. But the new stuff on the safe allows for a different reckoning. He may have opened the safe and gone to the bar that morning to meet someone, thinking he'd be back home shortly and then lock up the safe, after putting what he may have been purchasing back inside it. I wonder if they've checked old Craig's List postings from the area.

dnrslucky1
12-02-2009, 05:45 PM
Why would anyone have a safe with thousands in it and not lock it, but take the time to lock the door. I would have locked the safe before the door.

Why would anyone rob a safe and only take some of the money.

None of this makes sense, unless something in the safe was more valuable to the thief than money.

Debbie Miller
12-02-2009, 07:18 PM
no calls were suspicious,

If he was to be meeting someone than the calls that were made and received should be looked at again. People requestioned.

Debbie Miller
12-02-2009, 07:20 PM
his cell phone was never recovered.

This could be a clue- the phone could be in the strip pit. Hopefully when they look with the tech toys they will find it.

The clue being, maybe the killer didn't want it found because the killer's # is on the phone.

wfgodot
12-02-2009, 07:21 PM
Why would anyone have a safe with thousands in it and not lock it, but take the time to lock the door. I would have locked the safe before the door.

Why would anyone rob a safe and only take some of the money.

None of this makes sense, unless something in the safe was more valuable to the thief than money.

Your second question is exactly why it's likely that Mr. Neff removed the money himself. I would think that only he would take what he needed for that day and leave the rest. On not locking the safe---we all have our customs and habits, our ways of doing things, which might look odd to others but serve us well.

Debbie Miller
12-02-2009, 07:47 PM
Neff was last seen at about 9 a.m. Thursday in a local store. Prior to that, a female friend of his reported seeing Neff at around 7 a.m., said LeFlore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt.


Authorities said Neff went to his business around 10:30 a.m. and some type of altercation occurred between 11:20 and 11:40 a.m. that caused quite a bit of blood loss, Brown said.

A good friend of Neff’s arrived at the business just prior to the employee and found the same scene, Brown said.

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/16/news/news051609_04.txt


Ok here is the time line. He was at the business approxiamately 50 minutes before the attack. Approxiamately 20 minutes to commit the crime and remove the body before the early customer arrives at the bar. Hmmm.

Roselvr
12-02-2009, 07:48 PM
I wonder what type of shirt Mr. Neff was wearing did the pocket have a button to secure what was in the pocket? If not, with moving the body to remove Mr. Neff from the crime scene would seem the money would have fell out of the pocket or at least shown at the edge

Look at the picture in the article linked; my guess is those are his shirts of choice. Most pics of him have that type of shirt with a snapped/button pocket.

Your second question is exactly why it's likely that Mr. Neff removed the money himself. I would think that only he would take what he needed for that day and leave the rest. On not locking the safe---we all have our customs and habits, our ways of doing things, which might look odd to others but serve us well.

My dad did not lock his safe a lot because it was a pain to get into all the time. He used to leave it rigged so you only had to push the removable knob to pop it open. His was a floor safe though.

sameole
12-03-2009, 02:48 AM
We’re starting to think now that the murder and robbery of the safe might be two seperate events,” Curnett said.

If this is true, then it means to me that at least three people were involved. MMD has said that Joe was strong, which means at least two at the bar, and at least one at his house. But, a stranger at his home in broad daylight? Doubtfull. But, a cable T.V. vehicle or something like that wouldn't cause too much of a stir. It's like all these guys are ghosts or something, unless they are getting in place early in the morning and lying in wait.

itsreenw
12-04-2009, 01:30 AM
There were witnesses that saw Mr. Neff paying a bill and at the Napa auto parts store. He was seen at the store at 9am. How was it determined that he got to the bar at 10:30? Where could he have gone in that hour and a half?

Maybe he ran back home to grab some money out of the safe to purchase something and was in a rush so didn't bother to lock the safe and just locked the door instead.

MMD, it may seem trivial but you might want to find out what he bought at Napa. Could it be possible he was going to purchase that red truck and needed a part for it?

There are a lot of Craigslist robberies in CA. People pretend like they have something to sell then meet the potential buyer (who they know will be carrying cash)and rob them for the money that was going to be used to purchase the bogus item.

Debbie Miller
12-04-2009, 07:12 AM
There are a lot of Craigslist robberies in CA. People pretend like they have something to sell then meet the potential buyer (who they know will be carrying cash)and rob them for the money that was going to be used to purchase the bogus item.

Good point, alot of crime happens thru craigslist. :sick:

Debbie Miller
12-04-2009, 07:15 AM
We’re starting to think now that the murder and robbery of the safe might be two seperate events,” Curnett said.


The safe might not even be involved in this crime, with what we know of the condition of the house.

ChasingMoxie
12-04-2009, 02:25 PM
The safe might not even be involved in this crime, with what we know of the condition of the house.

I think you're right about this. The safe was open because Mr. Neff usually left it open, and the money was gone because he removed it. No thief is going to only take some of the money.

sameole
12-05-2009, 11:16 PM
One of the things MMD mentioned is that her father was getting ready to retire. This reminds me of the Denny case. A husband and wife killed around Christmas if I remember correctly, but the husband had just retired as a dam worker. I don't think he even got to collect his first check. Do the unions out there have a bad reputation or something?

missingmydad
12-07-2009, 03:33 AM
HI missingmydad, I was wondering, after your dad was discovered, and reports of a red truck circulated, do you know if they tried to see if any evidence (blood specifically) was washed out in a car wash? if any evidence may have been in the car wash? I'm just thinking...if someone transported and the vehicle that is a personal vehicle was messy, would they take the chances of washing it off at home and leaving evidence? even if they took it to the car wash, would it be possible to get evidence that way? anyone know?

i have not heard if they checked the car washes but that is a very good point. they had to have cleaned up a vehicle somewhere since there was a large amount of blood at the bar it would be naive to think it was a clean transport. i will do some asking around and see what i can find out.

missingmydad
12-07-2009, 03:40 AM
I am trying to figure out why he was dumped in Pocola. Why 20 miles away? Wondering if the killer/s where on their way to Fort Smith and it just happened to be a spot they where familiar with. Why take him that far away? There is plenty of desolate places between Poteau and Pocola. I dont think they were trying very hard to conceal him. They were either really stupid or didnt care if he was found. It is like they were just buying a bit of time before he would be found.


i cannot understand why they dumped him in pocola either. 1. they are taking a chance of being pulled over for speeding, or not signaling oor whatever. 2. what would they have said had they been pulled over!!!! 3. there are lots of secluded areas right whr the bar sits. we searhed all around the bar and with all of us it still took all day. 4. why not just leave him there? it makes no sense unless they thought he wold not be found and they thought no body-no crime..i just don't know.

missingmydad
12-07-2009, 03:45 AM
The fact that thousands more were still present points toward Mr. Neff being in that safe before this incident happened and he just didn't close the door or someone close tried to make it look like robbery. I feel strongly about "it was Mr. Neff" just left the door open. Robbery was definately not the motive here. The person who did this horrific crime whether they pulled the trigger or not has gone out of their way to keep the attention (suspicion) off of themselves.

Missingmydad,

Is there a time of death on the death certificate?

no it just says ....date of death- (found) 5-17-2009 and time of death is unknown. we were told that he was in the water for days so, if he was dumped thursday, the same day he went missing, he was found sunday, 3 days. i have heard that a body floats after 3 days. but they did not specify on the time on the death certificate

missingmydad
12-07-2009, 03:50 AM
MMD, did you know about the thousands more in the safe? Sorry if you have already said and I missed it.

no, i knew he had a safe but it never occurred to me to care what was in it, i mean it isn't mine so...i just assumed he had guns in there. i would also assume, maybe important papers. i mean if i had a safe i would keep birth certificates, shot records, car titles. i never one time discussed with my dad about what he kept in there, that was his business. i wish i had been a nosier daughter now. but who knew i would need this information, right?

missingmydad
12-07-2009, 04:52 AM
I noticed a few mistakes.
1. Dad did not normally leave the safe open. Anytime the door was open, the safe was always closed and locked.
2. He was not at the store at 9 am. The paper is mistaken. It was 10:30.
3. Yes my dad only wore button-up shirts. If they did not have 2 pockets, one on each side he would not buy them. Not all of his pockets buttoned closed, I am not sure about the shirt he had on, I know which one it was, but not if the pocket buttoned. We were not allowed toget them back, for obvoius reasons.
4. No he was not buying a red truck. He had a duelly, a Tahoe, a jeep, and trans am. I think the next vehicle he wanted was a black Hummer.
5. The thousands that the paper was alking about I think meant the moneyleft at the bar. He had went to get the bar ready to be opened, and check the jukebox and pool tables. That money remained there at the bar and was "overlooked" by the killers. So they either rushed in and missed it or they were not interested in taking it.

I do not really believe that someone killed him for nothing. Maybe I am in denial. If they robbed him, even though that is not okay, it is still "a reason". If they did not rob him then why kill him? I have heard that some people think it was 2 different crimes. I sure hope not. If we knew that it may be easier to find the killer. If it was 2 different crimes, then the killer would not even need to know where dad lived. So strange though, money was left in his shirt pocket and at the bar. So that was not robbery. But did they do that to throw people off that they were going after the larger amount of money, and to not look like a robbery they left the money on him and at the bar? Also I have never read anywhere where they found his cigarettes. They found his lighter and hat on the bar floor. He had money in his shirt pocket. But no cell phone, and no cigarettes. He always kept his cigarettes and lighter, phone and sometimes money or notes in his shirt pocket.
I hope they get the death penalty- quickly. I will be there.

blubuni99
12-07-2009, 05:21 PM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.

Oh my gosh! We live close to Poteau - well, not NOW (my husband is in the army and we're stationed in Texas) but my family lives around there. My sister took her drivers test in Poteau!!! Oh my gosh. That is SO crazy!
I'm so sorry for your loss. It freaks me out when I hear about murders close to my hometown!

missingmydad
12-09-2009, 03:39 AM
I asked my sister if we had gotten DNA tested...I just could not remember and was not in the best state of mind. She said no we were not. So they verified dads DNA some other way. I have not asked my uncle yet. Maybe they tested him. Maybe even old military records.
Please keep this case in your prayers. Along with Jody Rilee Wilson. Pray that the new task force will be blessed and that God guide them in the right direction.
Thank you so much to each and everyone of you that take time out of your world to care about someone elses tragedy.

missingmydad
12-12-2009, 09:40 AM
Monday will be 7 months since the day my dad was brutally murdered and dumped. It feels like 7 years.

4Kat
12-17-2009, 01:50 AM
Monday will be 7 months since the day my dad was brutally murdered and dumped. It feels like 7 years.

You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

missingmydad
12-19-2009, 01:01 AM
thank you, i still do not have any new news to tell anyone. even the rumors have stopped, this cannot be good

Kimster
12-19-2009, 01:35 AM
{{{Missingmydad}}}

This must be the hardest time for you. The leads seem to be fading, the holidays are coming, and still we don't know who took your father from you. Please know that we are hoping and praying for answers for you and your family. :praying:

Those who read this, please let Missing know our thoughts and prayers are with her right now! :grouphug:

nurselady
12-19-2009, 01:53 AM
Bless your heart honey.


we will continue to hold you up in prayer!!

JBean
12-19-2009, 01:56 AM
Monday will be 7 months since the day my dad was brutally murdered and dumped. It feels like 7 years.Oh Bless your heart.
Peace to you.

Kimster
12-19-2009, 01:56 AM
Here's the link to a thread devoted to missingmydad: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Tricia
12-19-2009, 02:21 AM
Dear MissingMyDad,

My heart breaks for you and your family. What you are all going through is cruel and unfair.

Please know we are here for you. If things get slow on this thread we'll post something to get more people involved.

Take care and I pray you find the answers you need.

Love,
Tricia

sameole
12-19-2009, 08:43 AM
I'am a little surprised that there is absolutly nothing on the OSBI website about either Joe's or Jodies murder/reward.

ValleyGirl
12-19-2009, 12:42 PM
God bless and keep you, missing my dad. I will keep your family and the law enforcement investigating your case in prayer. I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

carbuff
12-19-2009, 01:06 PM
I don't usually follow the current cases, but I wanted to stop by to tell you how much my heart goes out to on the loss of your father at this difficult time of year.

I did have a thought that's probably irrelevant -- but just because there are multiple murders, doesn't mean it's a serial killer. It could, for example, be somebody involved in a business deal gone bad who blames his/her partners -- I'm not proposing that as anything that happened for real, just the best illustration I could come up with.

cuppy199
12-19-2009, 01:52 PM
missingmydad My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family and I pray you find the truth soon. May God bless you hun and give you strenghth!

sadnpod
12-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Oh sweetie... I am so sorry for your loss and the suffering you and your family are going through.. I will pray for LE to have guidance and find who did this. My heart goes out to you and your family, may you all have strength through this holiday season and beyond.

imamaze
12-19-2009, 07:17 PM
missingmydad,

You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. I wish I could just give you a big hug. I know this has to be a very hard time for you.
:blowkiss: :grouphug:

Nore
12-19-2009, 10:53 PM
I haven't read about his cell, no. I think we'll have to wait for Missingmydad to return and help us with more info at this point.

------------------
I am thinking an ex employee.This is looking like someone who knew more than his name and the fact that he owned a bar.It is weird that Police havent checked the tape.That would be my first priority.The happenings in the area after being a quiet town are also weird.

Kimster
12-19-2009, 10:56 PM
------------------
I am thinking an ex employee.This is looking like someone who knew more than his name and the fact that he owned a bar.It is weird that Police havent checked the tape.That would be my first priority.The happenings in the area after being a quiet town are also weird.

I know it! In our small town, people hear who did it before it was even done! I think either there are people who know exactly what happened, or it was a transient drug addict. Those are my two main theories and they are both pretty broad when it comes to being of any real help. :(

sameole
12-20-2009, 06:38 AM
If no money was taken from his safe, at home and the bar, or off his person,then it's very possible he was killed over his pension. It's possible someone didn't want him to collect it. It's the only motive I can come up with knowing the facts as they are on this website.
Good luck mmd, and have as good a holiday as possible.

Roselvr
12-20-2009, 11:06 AM
If no money was taken from his safe, at home and the bar, or off his person,then it's very possible he was killed over his pension. It's possible someone didn't want him to collect it. It's the only motive I can come up with knowing the facts as they are on this website.
Good luck mmd, and have as good a holiday as possible.

I don't think it's a pension. There is something we are missing.
Bars get robbed all the time; the fact that we don't know how much money was taken doesn't help us. Why would money be left in his pocket?

As far as the bar tape, it's never been mentioned what was found on it. I don't think we're going to know any time soon.

.

Sophie
12-20-2009, 03:09 PM
Lots of love to you and your family, my darling. I'll be praying for a resolution for you and that you have a Christmas of love and warmth.xxx

Carolina Girl
12-20-2009, 05:08 PM
Missingmydad,
Love and hugs to you and your Family.

I can not help but think he was killed because of something someone thinks he overheard, possibly about one of the other murders in the area. People do tend to talk too much when they have been drinking. I don't think it was a robbery.

nervous_nellie
12-20-2009, 06:10 PM
((((hugs)))) to you and your family. im praying that you will know the truth about all of this soon.

Kimster
12-22-2009, 01:22 AM
Bumping up for Joe.

rccook555
12-23-2009, 01:35 PM
Thoughts and prayers for Joes family and friends during this first holiday season without him. May the New Year bring you justice and some comfort.

charminglane
12-23-2009, 04:46 PM
If his cigarrettes were missing, I am thinking that he knew his killer. He probably offered them a cig and they struck. He dropped the lighter. They kept the pack of smokes. It is a smoker.

Hello_Kitty
12-24-2009, 11:02 AM
Hello Missingmydad,

My family's thoughts are with you and your family and we pray that your LE will find those who did this. Stay strong.

Debbie3223
12-24-2009, 07:00 PM
im just now reading this... omgoodness..
im so sorry for what happemned to your dad.. my own dad died 2 yrs ago this month...
this has me so sad for you..

.as its christmas eve....

im asking God to Bless you and your family and find out what happened.. im not thru all the post so there may be updates.. but my heart goes out as as strong as ever.. Bless you... hug n stuff

MaryLiz
12-24-2009, 07:45 PM
Missingmydad...you are in my thoughts and prayers. God Bless you, especially now during Christmastime.

Carolina Girl
12-27-2009, 06:23 PM
Missingmydad,

How are you doing?

Truthful Lies
12-27-2009, 07:41 PM
Starting these threads tomorrow morning..just wanted to pop in and say that I'll read it all, and help as much as I can. xoxo

smart blonde
12-30-2009, 05:15 AM
missingmydad... just a quick note to let you know my heart goes out to you. I lost my own dad unexpectedly in 2007, and the pain still comes to me sometimes as fresh as if it happened yesterday.

You came to the right place, here at Websleuths. One would be hard pressed to find more dedicated and compassionate people - now friends- anywhere.

All the best to you. May this new year bring the answers and justice you are seeking, and deserve.

momtective
12-30-2009, 10:30 AM
oh i forgot, dad went missing thursday 14th, on friday we had looked all day and met back at house to update each other where we had searhed. we were all talking and decided that we should check this one room that he always kept locked. the le did check the house on thurs but since that room was never unlocked and the house was in perfect order we assumed that the only crime was at the bar. at this time we still did not know he was dead, we thought maybe he was just hurt somewhere. so fri we busted in door to find safe open. so we called le back out there again

This has probably already been said but don't you find it strange that whoever took the money from the safe, locked the door back before leaving?:waitasec:

Vegas Bride
12-30-2009, 10:45 AM
This has probably already been said but don't you find it strange that whoever took the money from the safe, locked the door back before leaving?:waitasec:

If whoever took money from the safe took the time to lock the door, wouldn't they also take the time to close the safe?
That's why I think it was actually Joe who had been in the safe and felt everything was fine in leaving it open since the door was going to be locked.

I hope you're able to find out soon who is responsible for this.

VB

amysmom
12-30-2009, 08:40 PM
missingmydad..so sorry for your loss & I totally understand your frustration with the lack of progress by LE..This new Task Force sounds promising but what about you/family hiring a PI? If there's any way to possibly afford it this route may (hopefully) turn out to be well worth it.

All the $$ left behind by the perp(s) seriously baffles me..Even if the motive wasn't robbery I'd still expect it to be taken..Just because they could..KWIM?

missingmydad
12-31-2009, 01:07 AM
Missingmydad,

How are you doing?

I have been better. I am just proud that the holidays are over. Still no news, if you can believe it. I am not sure how it can be any more depressing than this. Thank you all, I will try to get back on here very soon and catch up.

Kimster
12-31-2009, 01:54 AM
I have been better. I am just proud that the holidays are over. Still no news, if you can believe it. I am not sure how it can be any more depressing than this. Thank you all, I will try to get back on here very soon and catch up.

It was great hearing from you and we look forward to when you can spend more time here again! :blowkiss:

amysmom
12-31-2009, 02:11 AM
I have been better. I am just proud that the holidays are over. Still no news, if you can believe it. I am not sure how it can be any more depressing than this. Thank you all, I will try to get back on here very soon and catch up.

bbm

Have you contacted any of the local media that reported on your dad's case? They usually have info (or suspect things) they can't print cos it's not fact (yet) & for other obvious reasons..Someone may be willing to talk to you..It can't hurt to try.

It must be beyond frustrating/depressing but keep hanging in there..You have to know it's what your dad would want..Hope to see you back here soon! :)

Roselvr
12-31-2009, 10:47 AM
Sending lots of cyber hugs..

.

Noway
12-31-2009, 09:48 PM
If money is missing from the safe, and it sounds it's possible that Joe opened the safe in the morning but locked the door when he left, is it possible that the killer took the money from Joe but didn't bother with what was in Joe's pocket?

Just thinking that they didn't necessarily go back to the house at all. Because there was no evidence that anyone broke into the house and the house itself was in order.

RR0004
01-01-2010, 02:14 AM
Keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.
Stay strong!

Isabella
01-01-2010, 07:41 AM
I have been better. I am just proud that the holidays are over. Still no news, if you can believe it. I am not sure how it can be any more depressing than this. Thank you all, I will try to get back on here very soon and catch up.

I dont understand to be honest. Ive only just found your thread but firstly i want to say im sorry about what was done to your dad :( Secondly i want to say i think its just wrong that the police wont tell your family more. He was your dad and IMO you have a right to know far more about the case than you do :(

Noway
01-01-2010, 02:48 PM
I'm working on a compilation of all that is in this thread so far (big thank you for all of you posting information).

I'll post the compilation below ... but please do not quote the post in its entirety only because things may change (am only on page 8 of thread as far as creating this). I need to run out for a bit, but thought it might be helpful in the meanwhile.

If you want to comment about an entry, copy and paste just that part. If you seen something that is just wrong, please let me know. TIA


ETA: Finished going through the thread. I think I caught points of interest so far. Let me know if I missed something.

Noway
01-01-2010, 02:51 PM
Summary
On May 14, a regular customer (who always comes a little earlier than they open) finds Joe Neff’s bar, Long Branch Saloon in Poteau, OK (http://www.kaysullivanrealestate.com/listings/res/167313/more_photos.html) (LeFlore County), open but nobody there. Joe’s black Tahoe was outside the bar with keys in vehicle ignition (which he always did). There are signs of a struggle and injury (large amount of blood and Joe's cowboy hat and cigarette lighter on floor). Joe's girlfriend then arrives for her regular shift and they call 911. His body was found 2 days later in Pocola (12 miles north) in a strip pit (left from strip mining then filled with water and stocked with fish); he had died of a gunshot wound. He possibly was bound. His cell phone has never been recovered (got court order; had not pinged that day; probably already under water). Joe’s wallet was found on his body; $740 cash in his shirt pocket. (Described as “an ATM for many” and “he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much.”

Joe’s Routines
Opened the bar every day Monday-Saturday (not sure about this need to verify). The time he arrived varied. He did lock the door (deadbolt lock) the second he walked in and left keys hanging in it. When employee got there, he would open door, let them in, and lock it right back. Source

On Sundays, he drove his jeep around the hills.

Reward Offered
The family has setup a $10,000 reward for information that leads to the arrest and conviction of his killer. Anyone with information is asked to call the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations at 1-800-522-8017 or the LeFlore County Sheriff's Department at 918-647-2317. The family said all calls will be kept confidential. http://www.4029tv.com/news/21108591/detail.html#

Long Branch Saloon
Located about a mile outside Poteau city limits off Highway 59 (68155 Highway 59, Poteau, OK). Photo (http://kaysullivan.com/) Directions to the bar.

Timeline
THURSDAY
May 14, 2009, 7:00 a.m. – Joe, age 61, last seen at his house by girlfriend. She leaves to go to work (before coming to bar for her shift at noon). Daughter’s husband sees girlfriend leaving house on his way to work.
May 14, 2009, 10:30 a.m. – Joe seen in local stores (paid his water bill and bought a part for at Napa store)
May 14, 2009, 11:20-11:40 – Some kind of altercation occurs. http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/16/news/news051609_04.txt
May 14, 2009, 11:45 a.m. – Joe is discovered missing from bar.

FRIDAY
May 15, 2009 – LE performs ground search and spends time at Joe’s home but house is in order. (House is about 3 minutes from the bar; there is no blood in house.)

SATURDAY
May 16, 2009 – Family searches areas and regroups at Joe’s house. Joe’s family discovers that his home safe (standup safe with combination and key) was left open and that was unusual (http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/141810/). Thousands of dollars had been taken from the safe. http://www.4029tv.com/news/19482132/detail.html His home safe had been opened with thousands of dollars suspected missing, but thousands more still present. Later, when Neff’s body was pulled from the mining strip, Curnett watched as $740 was removed from his shirt pocket. http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee#ixzz0bRBLxbUk

SUNDAY
May 17, 2009, 4 p.m. – Two fishermen find Joe in a strip pit off Davis Road in neighboring Pocola. LeFlore county officials said Neff died as a result of a gunshot wound. http://www.4029tv.com/news/21108591/detail.html OSBI officials say he had been in the water a couple of days. http://www.4029tv.com/news/19488490/detail.html

May 26, 2009 – Joe’s funeral.

November 7, 2009 – Law enforcement brings in 2 FBI agents, 2 U.S. Marshalls and 2 more OSBI (MissingMyDad, # 1)

People
Law Enforcement/Legal
Bruce Curnutt – LeFlore County Sheriff. Believes at least two men are responsible because Joe was a strong, stout man and it would have taken at least two men to get him from bar and dispose of his body. He also believes that these people are local or lived in area at one time because of the area Joe was found. http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641

Cherokee Ballard – State medical examiner spokeswoman who stated that Joe died of “a gunshot wound to the head.” http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641

Donnie Edwards – LeFlore County Undersheriff called to Long Branch Saloon along with Sheriff Bruce Curnutt when Joe was reported missing. http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/141810/

Jessica Brown – OSBI spokesperson. http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/16/news/news051609_04.txt

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation – OSBI; working on case. Created cold case unit. OSBI Agent in Charge Gary Perkinson will supervise the new unit.

Task Force – Developed to look at cases of Joe Neff and Jody Rilee-Wilson. http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/167750/1/http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/167750/1/ Curnutt and the new task force will meet Friday for the first time since forming and exchanging notes last month. http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee#ixzz0bRArNJTj

Family
Joe’s siblings – Billy, Barbara, Tom, Jerry. http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html

Jon and Carla S. – Joe’s son and daughter-in-law. http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html

Marie and Eugene P. – Joe’s older daughter and son-in-law. http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641 and http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html Husband rented plane to search for Joe.

Ron S. – Joe’s nephew. Joe’s nephews scoured miles of land near Lake Wister on four-wheelers, looking for possible clues and eliminating areas.http://www.4029tv.com/news/19482132/detail.html

Shawna and Donny M. – Joe’s younger daughter and son-in-law. http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641 and http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html

Shirley N. – Joe’s ex-wife. http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html

Friends
Chipper Klutts – Joe’s childhood friends; said Neff was well liked in the community. “You couldn't find anybody who could hate him," Klutts said. "There's nothing to hate about him. He was just a super nice guy. http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html

Girlfriend – (Name not mentioned in mainstream media) Moved to area a couple of years ago. Dating Joe for about the last year. Did not live with Joe, but did stay over at times. Works at bar. Her family was from there at one point but she has lived all over. (MissingMyDad, #104) Described as about 5 feet tall and less than 100 pounds (MissingMyDad, #155)

J. Parker – Friend who said Joe was the best man you could ever know; someone who would do anything for anybody.

Other
Melvin S. – Owner of property (15_ _ South Davis, Pocola, OK 74902) where Joe’s body was found. He lives by the entrance and sees everyone going by. It’s not visible from the road, so if you didn’t know it was there, you couldn’t see it. Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Joe Neff (my dad) unsolved murder 14 May 2009 -no leads

Maps
Map of area where Joe was found (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Anadarko+Oklahoma&daddr=Poteau,+Oklahoma+to:Highway+1,+Talihina,+OK+ 74571+%28Buffalo+Valley+High+School%29+to:Cordell, +Oklahoma+to:Cheyenne,+Oklahoma+to:Weleetka&geocode=FTIqFwIdsusk-imF-9k-X6SthzG4y3Nt-jFstw%3B) (MysticRose)

Map of other LeFore cases (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Anadarko+Oklahoma&daddr=Poteau,+Oklahoma+to:Highway+1,+Talihina,+OK+ 74571+%28Buffalo+Valley+High+School%29+to:Cordell, +Oklahoma+to:Cheyenne,+Oklahoma+to:Weleetka&geocode=FTIqFwIdsusk-imF-9k-X6SthzG4y3Nt-jFstw%3B) (Roselvr)

Other Information (may not be related to Joe's case)
Body of missing woman found. (http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/158815/1/) The body of Dusty Nichole Loggains was recovered September 4 south of Hodgen along the side of Highway 59 not far from the cabin where her car and other belongings had been located.

Eastern Oklahoma Investments, Inc. (http://www.manta.com/c/mm3ldqm/eastern-oklahoma-investments-inc) Joe’s business.

Joe’s obituary as seen on Evans and Miller Funeral Home website (http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html) and on Southwest Times (http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt)

LE looking for older model red import truck http://www.4029tv.com/news/19475932/detail.html In addition, officials are also looking for an older model Toyota or Nissan red pickup thought to be in connection with the crime. http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/141810/

Missing Jamison family (lived 50 miles away; truck found about 30 minutes away) http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=1134094&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

Weather at time of murder. Raining in days before and after Joe’s murder; sunny the day of.

Possible routes from bar to place where Joe was found. Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Joe Neff (my dad) unsolved murder 14 May 2009 -no leads

Sources
Websleuths Members’ Posts http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91287&highlight=my+dad

MissingMyDad Posts http://www.websleuths.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2689011

Sources (Media)
http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html (05/14/2009 Friends Seek Missing, Possibly Injured Man)

http://www.4029tv.com/news/19475932/detail.html (05/15 Grim New Clues Found in Search for Missing Bar Owner)

http://www.topix.com/city/poteau-ok (Poteau News various)

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/poteau-ok/T9EFNOG79QCACVEB9 (05/17/2009 Joe Neff, Bar Owner, Missing in OK since May 14, 2009, Found …)

http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641 (06/14/2009 Poteau Bar Owner’s Slaying Haunts Family)

http://www.kfsm.com/news/kfsm-news-ok-neff-family-speaks-out,0,6693096.story (07/2009 Family of Murdered Bar Owner Wants Answers)

http://www.4029tv.com/news/20330998/detail.html (08/08/2009 Motorcycle Rider Honors Slain Bar Owner) "We're doing what Joe did every Sunday," said Stacey Nickell of the Protector's Motorcycle Association. "We're doing the same ride that he did."

http://www.4029tv.com/video/20331311 (http://www.4029tv.com/video/20331311/)/ (08/2009 Homicide Investigation Continues)

htp://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090614_12_A14_Police445201&rss_lnk=11 (LeFore County’s 6 Homicides Unusually High)

http://www.4029tv.com/video/21108655/index.html (09/24/2009 Family Asks Public for Help in Solving Murder Mystery

http://www.4029tv.com/news/21108591/detail.html (09/24/2009 Popular Bar Owner’s Slaying Still Unsolved)

http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-homicide-cases-linger-but-arent-cold/article/3406134#ixzz0WFe8Ja8Z (http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-homicide-cases-linger-but-arent-cold/article/3406134%23ixzz0WFe8Ja8Z) (10/04/2009 Some Oklahoma Homicide Cases Linger, But Aren’t Cold)

http://www.4029tv.com/news/21722884/detail.html (11/25/2009 OSBI Announces Creation of Cold Case Unit)

http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee#ixzz0YY7As9fx (http://www.newsok.com/article/3421922?searched=rilee%23ixzz0YY7As9fx%20) (12/02/2009 Task Force Sought for LeFlore County’s Pending Cases)

Local Media Sources
Poteau Daily News (http://www.poteaudailynews.com/)
The Heavener Ledger (http://www.smalltownpapers.com/newspapers/newspaper.php?id=186)
The Daily Oklahoman (http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641)
Channel 40/29 (http://www.4029tv.com/index.html) (Fort Smith and Fayetteville, AR)
Channel 5 (http://www.koco.com/index.html) (Fayetteville, AR)

Vegas Bride
01-01-2010, 07:17 PM
Have there been any other murders in the area since Joe's ?
Also, since the owner of the land where he was found lived near-by, did he hear gunshots? Since it probably happened during the day he very well may have been away from his home. If he was away, who were the people that might know it would be safe to either bring a dead body, or bring someone out there to kill and the land owner wouldn't be around.

VB

Noway
01-02-2010, 03:00 AM
I made it through the last pages. I have 24 hours from the time I created that post to edit it. If you have suggestions or changes you think should be made, let me know.

I know that MissingMyDad's full name and that of her siblings has been mentioned in mainstream media but for some reason I felt funny about putting them in here. I can't explain it exactly ... but I will leave it as is for now.

sillybilly
01-02-2010, 07:19 PM
MMD ... just want to say how terribly sorry I am about your pain and the tremendous loss of your wonderful Father. Have read through this thread about your Dad and will read it again to make sure i'm digesting everything.

Justice does not always come swiftly, but it usually does come eventually. My stepfather was murdered and it took LE 13 years, but his "best friend" was ultimately tried, convicted of his murder, and died in prison. We always say, he didn't just kill our stepfather, he killed our Mother, who changed overnight from a bubbly, beautiful woman into a negative, paranoid and depressed person. DO NOT EVER LET THESE PEOPLE DO THIS TO YOU MMD !!

I wish you a blessed New Year, and will pray for justice for your beloved Father, for you, and for your family.

Slammed
01-02-2010, 08:00 PM
1st post here, after searching to see if there were any updates on somer thompson i happened to find this site, and after looking around this was the first case that really caught my eye so i read from start to finish. Now a few of my thoughts...

1) If looking for an "older model red import pickup" why are they specifying nissan or toyota? there were several other japanese companies producing trucks which all look reasonably similar to the untrained eye if coming from the same vintage. If the witness was able to positively identify the brand i would think that would narrow down the matches considerably. Since Nissan or toyota were mentioned, i think that its just an assumption based on the most common brands.

IMO Izuzu and Mazda (same platform and many parts shared with ford ranger) should bear investigating. Additionally, since no japanese manufacturers made a full size truck until the inception of the tundra in the late 90's (which wouldnt really be considered "older" looking) I would also look at similar older american minitrucks like the S10 (and similar GMC counterpart) Ford Ranger, Dodge dakota, etc. I can't believe that police aren't able to obtain listings of people within certain radius who have certain types of vehicles in certain colors or something. It shouldn't be too hard and at least would give them SOMETHING to work on


2) I think that you can rule out a transient drug addict. I know for a fact that after a fiend commits a crime they are focused on getting drugs right away, asap. Unless they needed to travel 20+ miles to procure said drugs and dropped him on the way i HIGHLY doubt it. Additionally most people who are desperate enough to kill for drugs have already pawned their vehicles and belongings (gun, etc) and lack the resources for such an undertaking

3) I also feel that he was never brought to the house. Whoever did it clearly was familiar enough with his routine to also know that the bar would be open soon and someone would be along shortly and find things as they did. I doubt that they would risk being at the house or spotted in the area and potentially intercepted by police with the body on hand. I feel certain that he went straight from there to the the site he was discovered

4) I would like to see a map of the entire surrounding area and the locations where his home, business, the gf's home, and the strip mine are marked

Noway
01-03-2010, 07:21 PM
This was created by someone else and has some of what you want plus more.

Jody and Joe Map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&doflg=ptm&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=104684969700140327249.000478e416ad836708740&ll=35.395767,-95.158081&spn=1.141846,2.046204&z=9)

KariKae
01-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Basically, if you look, you will see. Open your heart & mind and you will see/feel your dad with you.



This is so true. I lost my dad very unexpectly Dec 15, 2006. In my dad's case, he was not murdered. He died of a heart attack while on a business trip. He didn't show up for work. His co-worker got worried. They had to break down his hotel room door and found him. He had died in his sleep.

The day after his death. I remember sitting in my mom's living room. I was alone. I remember "talking" to my dad, asking him for a sign that he was alright. Within a few minutes, one of the wrapped packages said, "Woo Hoo. This is fun." We have since opened that package. That particular toy says, "Woo Hoo" and "This is fun", but it does not say those phrases together. It was the sign I asked for. Since then, my dad has given me other signs, mostly when I ask for them.

Ask your dad for a sign. I truly believe you will receive one.

KariKae
01-04-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm sorry to be so graphic, but is the girlfriend or bar patron able to tell you how much blood? I hate to keep hitting this point, but to me, it's important whether he was likely alive or not when leaving the bar? Who cleaned up the crime scene? I don't think OSBI typcially cleans up the crime scene. There are a few private companies to who that.

KariKae
01-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Even if the gf wasn't involved, she could have made an off-handed remark to somebody which set the chain of events in motion. Possibly about the money in the safe.

However, with the money left in the safe and on the body, I am leaning away from robbery as the motive. I really wonder if he didn't stumble upon something while riding his horses. He would have to be able to put a name with the illegal activity. Maybe this person came to see him before the bar opened and Joe let him in to talk. This person assaulted him. They didn't shoot him in the bar because a gunshot would draw attention so they took him out to the strip pit.

Roselvr
01-04-2010, 02:58 PM
This was created by someone else and has some of what you want plus more.

Jody and Joe Map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&doflg=ptm&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=104684969700140327249.000478e416ad836708740&ll=35.395767,-95.158081&spn=1.141846,2.046204&z=9)

That "someone" would be me.
Click on the map - my name is there too.

sillybilly
01-04-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm sorry to be so graphic, but is the girlfriend or bar patron able to tell you how much blood? I hate to keep hitting this point, but to me, it's important whether he was likely alive or not when leaving the bar? Who cleaned up the crime scene? I don't think OSBI typcially cleans up the crime scene. There are a few private companies to who that.

I also am uncomfortable with discussing such specifics, knowing that family are reading. However, family that are reading here are looking for answers and, in my experience, are able to compartmentalize to some degree in order to get those answers that will lead to justice for their loved one.

I am curious about the blood in the bar too. Indications are that there was a significant amount, so am wondering how the perp(s) were able to remove Joe from that location without blood being found elsewhere (i.e. the friend who showed up early at the bar .. was there blood on the door, the steps, in the parking lot, etc?)

sillybilly
01-04-2010, 06:07 PM
Post #107 by mysticrose over in Jody Rilee Wilson's thread:

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84012&page=5

There seems to be some interest for whatever reason in a couple who owned "The Bar" in Potuea, seems Jodi was good friends with them and they sold the bar shortly after she went missing. Take it as you will as I have no link to this info just being discussed on topix.

Joe owned a bar in Poteau, apparently Jody was friends with owners of "The Bar" in Poteau, and Jody's car was found at a bar in Henryetta.

Wonder who the previous and current owners of "The Bar" are. FWIW, their myspace album has what I believe to be a photo of Jody.

Just a thought ... Jody went missing May 4/5 and her body was found May 9 near Poteau. If Joe was riding around Poteau for recreation, i'm wondering if he rode near where Jodi was found, and unbeknownst to him, saw Jodi's perp in the area.

pinamia
01-04-2010, 06:48 PM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.


I'm sorry for your loss. I hope that soon you will get the killers. I believe there is more than one killer. He was most likely stalked for some time. Perhaps they were ex-cons or teens on drugs. It could have been a Hit of some kind. He was definitely targeted. This is all my opinion of course.

sillybilly
01-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Trying to keep these OK cases separate in my head, but found this quite a coincidence ...

While sleuthing on this case and Jody Rilee Wilson's case, I googled the Pig Out Palace (where Jody's car was found sitting for approx 4 weeks). Google images comes up with a pic of the bar with an older, bright red pick-up parked out front. Dunno how many peeps in OK drive trucks that look like this, but given LE is looking for one, maybe they could check this out:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2924605174_cbc157a0c7.jpg?v=0

Will also post this in Jody's thread in case somebody can tie something together.

PS: im' not in the US, so if someone feels this significant to pass along to LE, please do so. I assume they read here, but just in case. Prolly nothing, but we never know until we know.

Slammed
01-05-2010, 01:11 AM
Trying to keep these OK cases separate in my head, but found this quite a coincidence ...

While sleuthing on this case and Jody Rilee Wilson's case, I googled the Pig Out Palace (where Jody's car was found sitting for approx 4 weeks). Google images comes up with a pic of the bar with an older, bright red pick-up parked out front. Dunno how many peeps in OK drive trucks that look like this, but given LE is looking for one, maybe they could check this out:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2924605174_cbc157a0c7.jpg?v=0

Will also post this in Jody's thread in case somebody can tie something together.

PS: im' not in the US, so if someone feels this significant to pass along to LE, please do so. I assume they read here, but just in case. Prolly nothing, but we never know until we know.

while i doubt anyone who actually went so far as to say the truck was an import would get it confused with an f150, since they didnt know the specific brand it IS possible. If it turns out that the truck is registered to the ower of that establishment i would say it bears some investigation...and makes you wonder if there could be some association between the owner of the pig out palace and "the bar"

interesting...good find

sillybilly
01-05-2010, 05:32 AM
while i doubt anyone who actually went so far as to say the truck was an import would get it confused with an f150, since they didnt know the specific brand it IS possible. If it turns out that the truck is registered to the ower of that establishment i would say it bears some investigation...and makes you wonder if there could be some association between the owner of the pig out palace and "the bar"

interesting...good find

I guess it depends to a large degree on the witness's knowledge of vehicles, and under what circumstances the witness saw the vehicle (was it just a vague recollection, under suspicious circumstances, partial view, distance, lighting, etc.). For me, with my untrained eye, to compare the Ford F150(?) pickup shown at the Pig Out to a Mazda pickup or a Nissan pickup, I would be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

NOTE: I'm posting these pics to show how similar the different make vehicles can be, not to cast aspersions on innocent people who may own them. If someone thinks I should delete them for any reason, please let me know.

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/PickupatPigOut.jpg
Ford F150(?) pickup shown at Pig Out Palace

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/Mazdapickup.jpg
Mazda (age unknown)

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/sillybillyyyy/1997Nissanpickup.jpg
1997 Nissan

sweetheart29
01-05-2010, 04:57 PM
The red f150 the the top picture would be a1997 to 2003 year model. The Mazda and Nissan are smaller pickups they would be about the size of a Ford ranger. If the red Ford was involved in anyway the wheels would stand out big time they are gold. Most usually wheels are aluminum or chrome. Most people in that area would know a Ford or Chevy over a import.

Roselvr
01-05-2010, 05:03 PM
I have been better. I am just proud that the holidays are over. Still no news, if you can believe it. I am not sure how it can be any more depressing than this. Thank you all, I will try to get back on here very soon and catch up.


Marie, how are you doing?


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1083&pictureid=9045

.

sweetheart29
01-05-2010, 05:16 PM
Trying to keep these OK cases separate in my head, but found this quite a coincidence ...

While sleuthing on this case and Jody Rilee Wilson's case, I googled the Pig Out Palace (where Jody's car was found sitting for approx 4 weeks). Google images comes up with a pic of the bar with an older, bright red pick-up parked out front. Dunno how many peeps in OK drive trucks that look like this, but given LE is looking for one, maybe they could check this out:

.
That truck could be a 1997 to a 2003 F150 red was a popular color.

Slammed
01-05-2010, 06:52 PM
The red f150 the the top picture would be a1997 to 2003 year model. The Mazda and Nissan are smaller pickups they would be about the size of a Ford ranger. If the red Ford was involved in anyway the wheels would stand out big time they are gold. Most usually wheels are aluminum or chrome. Most people in that area would know a Ford or Chevy over a import.

Those wheels are actually silver, they are either dirty or just look that color in the photo for some reason

Noway
01-05-2010, 08:29 PM
What is considered an "older model" these days (as in an older-model red import pickup truck)? The 90s?

Noway
01-05-2010, 08:30 PM
How long had the strip pit been there?

Thinking if the killer(s) are someone who lived there before and knew about that place as somewhere to leave Joe's body.

sillybilly
01-05-2010, 11:42 PM
Those wheels are actually silver, they are either dirty or just look that color in the photo for some reason

For some reason, that was my first impression too, Slammed (which is kind of weird, because it looks like a new paint job ... maybe it's the contrast between newish paint and older looking wheels ... or very shiny wheels picking up the yellow from the overhead yellow signage).

Let's say Average Joe Witness sees a suspect truck from approx 100 feet, or from a vague recollection of having seen a vehicle of a particular colour parked in a parking lot ... specifically, what is it about that vehicle that would stand out to the witness that smacks of import rather than domestic (i.e. is size the main indicator or are there also full-size import trucks? If import trucks are typically smaller, how would that same witness determine whether it was a smaller Ford Ranger or a Nissan/Mazda, etc)?

The reason I'm asking is I have something nagging at me, and when I "went there", lo and behold ... there is a partial view of an older red pickup in the yard, but I suspect it is a domestic as opposed to import. I think my underlying thought/impression is based on a bigger chrome bumper, but I really don't know why I'm thinking this !!

sillybilly
01-05-2010, 11:51 PM
Was reading about the missing Jamison family in the same general area as Joe and Jody and others. As in Joe's case, there was a large amount of money left behind in their vehicle. They had taken money with them as they were interested in purchasing a property.

Joe was a business man, and I haven't seen any reference to indicate that his demeanour that morning was unusual when he was paying his water bill and buying the part at NAPA. With the "thousands" missing from the safe, am wondering if he was planning on purchasing a property, making a large cash down-payment on something, and had made arrangements to meet with the seller (i.e. possibly through a private listing or a Craigslist ad)?

Soulmagent
01-06-2010, 12:31 AM
If the truck was seen from a long distance maybe, but the f150 in the picture appears to be a 1999 f150 xl , I have a friend who has a blue one and is a big truck. I agree the witness description could have to do with how much they know about trucks,but they could say they thought an f150 xl was a small truck if they only saw it from the front at a distance of at least 75 feet. If It was close I couldnt see how anyone would use the word small for the model unless they themselves drove a tractor trailer.
Now from 75 feet front veiw ,it appears like a whole different story the truck looks smaller at a front veiw and appears lower the the ground due to the back piece on the bumper. I would say it is possible for them to have mistaken it for a small truck that way and when I starting posting this I was like no way.

sillybilly
01-06-2010, 02:04 AM
If the truck was seen from a long distance maybe, but the f150 in the picture appears to be a 1999 f150 xl , I have a friend who has a blue one and is a big truck. I agree the witness description could have to do with how much they know about trucks,but they could say they thought an f150 xl was a small truck if they only saw it from the front at a distance of at least 75 feet. If It was close I couldnt see how anyone would use the word small for the model unless they themselves drove a tractor trailer.
Now from 75 feet front veiw ,it appears like a whole different story the truck looks smaller at a front veiw and appears lower the the ground due to the back piece on the bumper. I would say it is possible for them to have mistaken it for a small truck that way and when I starting posting this I was like no way.

Thanks for your input Soul !! I guess so much depends on who the witness is. I was thinking along the lines of someone who maybe drove past Joe's bar that morning and having a recollection of there having been a red truck in the parking lot, or seeing a vehicle driving erratically, or someone close to where Joe's body was discovered having briefly seen a red truck, possibly at a bit of a distance. I'm a country bumpkin, used to seeing lots of trucks, but am not necessarily savvy in that field. If I were the witness and said I'd seen a red truck, and say LE showed me the above 3 pics ... the best I could do would be a colour match (given the variations of "red"), larger or smaller truck, and maybe a year range. Other than that, foreign or domestic, they all look pretty much the same to me. Hopefully they have a better witness than me ;)

wadahoot
01-06-2010, 02:45 AM
Stop in to see the Sherriff and let him know you would like to meet with the task force for 15 minutes or so every two weeks.

http://newsok.com/task-force-sought-for-le-flore-countys-pending-cases/article/3421922?custom_click=lead_story_title



MMD - I LOVE this picture of your Papa ... he looks like a 'real' person (if you know what I mean) ... just a great guy. I'm so sorry for you, your family and Joe's many friends.

itsreenw
01-06-2010, 02:52 AM
Hi all, haven't been here for a while but I want to ask the family some questions that have been nagging at me...

Has the family 'interviewed' any of the witnesses themselves? It seems LE just isn't going to put much effort into this case for some reason and being that Joe was loved by everyone, that just doesn't make sense.

Has it been determined yet where LE got the notion that thousands of dollars were missing from the safe? I think a lot of emphasis is being placed on the safe but it doesn't sound like the house was a crime scene.

Has the girlfriend shown any interest in the case since the first couple weeks? Not implicating her, but the family is diligently trying to find Joe's killer but she has remained low key and oddly, the media hasn't named her where in any other case, the person closest to the victim would be flashed all over the news whether they wanted to be or not. Has she indicated that she's scared someone may come after her? If it was my boyfriend of a year, I'd be actively trying to get justice for my man.

Has anyone talked to the employees of NAPA auto parts to see what Joe bought? Was the item purchased found in his truck or in the bar? If not, why would it be missing? Was it for someone else's vehicle? Maybe the employees can tell the family if anyone came in the same time as Joe that he may have talked to in line or may have seen him pull out a wad of money to pay for something? I keep getting a nagging feeling that the red truck followed him from the auto parts store to the bar.

If LE isn't going to ask the questions, somebody should ask them and forward the info to LE. Maybe new info will spark some interest in the case. Joe sounds like the greatest guy. He deserves justice.

sillybilly
01-06-2010, 03:15 AM
MMD says she and her sister didn't know how much money was in the safe, so it really bugs me who DID know in order to inform LE how much was missing.

It has been stated in Jody's thread that she apparently knew the owners of "The Bar" in Poteau, and supposedly it was sold shortly after Jody went missing on May 5. Wondering if Joe was interested in buying that business, and somebody else didn't want that to happen.

Also, any idea how old Joe's gf is, and what her criminal record is for? She sure has been kept out of the picture for some reason. Gotta wonder who she knows :waitasec:

MOO

itsreenw
01-06-2010, 03:58 AM
MMD says she and her sister didn't know how much money was in the safe, so it really bugs me who DID know in order to inform LE how much was missing.

It has been stated in Jody's thread that she apparently knew the owners of "The Bar" in Poteau, and supposedly it was sold shortly after Jody went missing on May 5. Wondering if Joe was interested in buying that business, and somebody else didn't want that to happen.

Also, any idea how old Joe's gf is, and what her criminal record is for?Shesure has been kept out of the picture for some reason. Gotta wonder who she knows :waitasec:

MOO
BBM....IMO, she may literally want to be KEPT OUT OF THE PICTURE or any other form of attention that may expose her identity. She might be hiding from somewhere/someone else. In just about any other murder case, the victim's love interest is plastered all over the media, especially with such suspicious circumstances at the bar and her being the one to call 911 to report the crime.

I believe I read the gf's family supposedly lived in the area in the past but the gf lived in several places. It sounds like it's a very small community and somebody would know more about her background or family history.
How can she be ruled out when nobody really even knows anything about her. We can't even verify she is using her real name because nobody knows what name she uses.Frustrating. I want Justice for Joe!!!! (I'm probably going to be banned again for voicing my opinion on the mystery gf.)

Soulmagent
01-06-2010, 03:59 AM
Thanks for your input Soul !! I guess so much depends on who the witness is. I was thinking along the lines of someone who maybe drove past Joe's bar that morning and having a recollection of there having been a red truck in the parking lot, or seeing a vehicle driving erratically, or someone close to where Joe's body was discovered having briefly seen a red truck, possibly at a bit of a distance. I'm a country bumpkin, used to seeing lots of trucks, but am not necessarily savvy in that field. If I were the witness and said I'd seen a red truck, and say LE showed me the above 3 pics ... the best I could do would be a colour match (given the variations of "red"), larger or smaller truck, and maybe a year range. Other than that, foreign or domestic, they all look pretty much the same to me. Hopefully they have a better witness than me ;)

If someone did see it and that is their witness I would have to say that in order for it to be mistaken for small it would of had to be backed in or there only view was full frontal and not up close. A side veiw would reveal the size and even the back of it you can tell it is big. So was the truck in question backed in somewhere a witness would only have a full front veiw of the truck?

KariKae
01-06-2010, 11:53 AM
Would it be possible to hire a private investigator to re-interview some of these people?

Perhaps the police would be more willing to share information with a neutral third party.

I understand it is hard to spend money on a service the policy should be providing, but sometimes the police force just isn't trained to handle this type of investigation. OSBI is headquartered in Edmond, so they probably aren't going to be staff to assist unless absolutely necessary. A PI might be your best bet for answers.

Slammed
01-06-2010, 12:25 PM
For some reason, that was my first impression too, Slammed (which is kind of weird, because it looks like a new paint job ... maybe it's the contrast between newish paint and older looking wheels ... or very shiny wheels picking up the yellow from the overhead yellow signage)

It almost looks like the wheels are covered in some kind of mud or clay in the pic, but i DO believe that ford offered those wheels in a factory chrome finish iirc.

Was reading about the missing Jamison family in the same general area as Joe and Jody and others. As in Joe's case, there was a large amount of money left behind in their vehicle. They had taken money with them as they were interested in purchasing a property.

Joe was a business man, and I haven't seen any reference to indicate that his demeanour that morning was unusual when he was paying his water bill and buying the part at NAPA. With the "thousands" missing from the safe, am wondering if he was planning on purchasing a property, making a large cash down-payment on something, and had made arrangements to meet with the seller (i.e. possibly through a private listing or a Craigslist ad)?

I think the daughter stated earlier that her father didn't even have a computer but i could be mistaken. What i would like to know is how they determined that "thousands" were "missing" when apparently there was still money left behind. I don't see where they found basis for that assumption

sillybilly
01-06-2010, 05:16 PM
Wonder whether Joe had a Will and whether it was in the safe?

sillybilly
01-06-2010, 05:34 PM
It almost looks like the wheels are covered in some kind of mud or clay in the pic, but i DO believe that ford offered those wheels in a factory chrome finish iirc.
<snip>

Speaking of mud ... there are pics of Jody Rilee Wilson's SUV that were taken before her disappearance. The vehicle is literally covered in mud.

Post #66 has a link to the pics:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84012&page=3

sweetheart29
01-06-2010, 05:38 PM
It almost looks like the wheels are covered in some kind of mud or clay in the pic, but i DO believe that ford offered those wheels in a factory chrome finish.

Those wheels do come in chrome. The rail on the side of the truck is chrome shinny silver color but the wheels look gold. If it is mud why is it just on the wheels and not any where else. The bumper is also shinny silver and not mud gold color, I am just saying if that truck was involved in anything those wheels are going to stand out.

Roselvr
01-06-2010, 07:43 PM
It almost looks like the wheels are covered in some kind of mud or clay in the pic, but i DO believe that ford offered those wheels in a factory chrome finish iirc.

I agree; they look like stock wheels to me. Looking at google images of Ford F150's - I picked 2001 to start; and see the same wheels on other 2001's.

Here's a 2002 F 150 (http://www.governmentauctions.org/uploaded_images/f150-780105.JPG), where the wheel color looks a little weird.

I'm unsure of the year of the actual truck at the bar. Usually you can tell by the doors, windows, tail lights & head lights.

As for why the rest of the truck isn't covered in what the rims are it's probably because what's on the rims is from the brakes and not mud. Also probably has to do with the satellite picture


.

wadahoot
01-07-2010, 03:20 AM
I have another thought on the order of events. Please note, I've read the whole thread, but some of it is contradictory, so I may be mixing apples and oranges! Plus I'm thinking out loud here ...

How about this - GF leaves Joe's, taking her out of the picture (unless she is ultimately one of the 'bad guys'). Joe goes to the auto parts store, comes home and is rummaging around in the office and safe. He has some of his money out, for some unknown reason, but not all of it (this accounts for some money being gone, but some still there). Even though he doesn't use a computer, he does keep ledgers, and has already made a notation about the money he is removing, thus LE knows a large sum of money is missing.

Someone knocks at the door, he leaves the safe open, as he's just going to the door, but closes the room's door and it auto-locks. The 'bad guys' don't know about the home safe, and thus do not attempt to get into it.

There are at least 2 people at the door, and they are up to no good. One rides with Joe to the bar, perhaps at gun-point, with the other following (in the red pick-up perhaps). They are the ones getting (borrowing?) the money Joe has with him. They know it will be less suspicious if Joe's truck is at the bar, thus forcing him to drive there, too. They think the money is at the bar, and they want it, without strings attached. Joe puts up a fight, and since the transaction didn't go smoothly (due to their greed?), Joe is badly injured (thus the blood). They now know that they can't leave him behind to point the finger at them, so they take him, eventually shooting him.

This makes me think it was someone Joe knew certainly by sight, and perhaps quite well; if they were passing through/strangers, they could have left him injured, as well as they wouldn't have known the time frame in which they needed to be at the bar. I'm feeling like the GF and/or her friends deserve a more detailed look-see. Likewise, only a local would know about the strip pit, if it is as isolated/hard to find as stated.

Debbie Miller
01-07-2010, 07:40 AM
Joe’s Routines
Opened the bar every day Monday-Saturday (not sure about this need to verify). The time he arrived varied. He did lock the door (deadbolt lock) the second he walked in and left keys hanging in it. When employee got there, he would open door, let them in, and lock it right back. Source (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4490151&postcount=281)


If Joe walked in and locked the door behind him with deadbolt also, if there was no sign of forced entry at the bar when police investigated, this would also point to someone Joe knew and trusted. It seems Joe let them in before the bar opened to the public.

If the keys were found still in the door, then what about the exit at the back or side of the bar? Were they found locked or not?

Another possibility is that Joe was going to make a deal with the person(s) responsible for his death and chose the bar as the meeting place.

Debbie Miller
01-07-2010, 07:49 AM
It has been stated in Jody's thread that she apparently knew the owners of "The Bar" in Poteau, and supposedly it was sold shortly after Jody went missing on May 5. Wondering if Joe was interested in buying that business, and somebody else didn't want that to happen.
MOO

Kinda makes the "bar" the common denominator between these two cases.

Debbie Miller
01-07-2010, 07:51 AM
Was reading about the missing Jamison family in the same general area as Joe and Jody and others. As in Joe's case, there was a large amount of money left behind in their vehicle. They had taken money with them as they were interested in purchasing a property.

Joe was a business man, and I haven't seen any reference to indicate that his demeanour that morning was unusual when he was paying his water bill and buying the part at NAPA. With the "thousands" missing from the safe, am wondering if he was planning on purchasing a property, making a large cash down-payment on something, and had made arrangements to meet with the seller (i.e. possibly through a private listing or a Craigslist ad)?

It wouldn't be the first time that Craigslist was used to commit a crime. Wonder if this has been looked into.

sillybilly
01-08-2010, 06:32 PM
It wouldn't be the first time that Craigslist was used to commit a crime. Wonder if this has been looked into.

I just remembered that MMD said her Dad didn't have a computer. I also just remembered that she said Joe had a few vehicles and was interested in buying a Hummer as his next vehicle. Wonder if he had taken steps towards that purchase, and if so, what auto dealership he would have been dealing with. The Jamison family had just purchased a used truck.

little726
01-08-2010, 08:49 PM
I have not gone back and read all 18 pages of this case, but I have kept up on it. I was wondering what people thought about the idea that, Joe, saw the people commiting the crime against Jody Rilee? The killers also saw him and had to get him out of the way.

Joe could have also over heard the killers talking about Jody, at the bar.

If this has been discussed already, please disregard.

Noway
01-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Would there be some reason Joe would have a larger than normal amount of cash in his safe?

Did he use a bank at all? I don't remember if that's been addressed. Strange for businessman not to -- JMO.

Was planning any large cash transactions (buying vehicle, loans to others, paydays, etc.)?

ETA
What kind of bar is the Long Branch Saloon?

Roselvr
01-09-2010, 12:13 PM
What kind of bar is the Long Branch Saloon?

From what I remember they played country music & danced. Pretty sure he served food

Noway
01-10-2010, 01:35 AM
I'm wondering if there was a knock on the door, would Joe open it?

Small town and trusting environment ... broad daylight ...

It looks like he could have seen who was out there ...

http://www.kaysullivanrealestate.com/listings/res/167313/more_photos.html

Noway
01-10-2010, 01:37 AM
And there are surveillance cameras in there (did I not read that?). Why is it such a mystery who did this? Did they stay exactly in the right spot(s) to not be taped?

Does that not raise an eyebrow?

Carolina Girl
01-13-2010, 08:10 PM
Where is missing my Dad?

Kimster
01-13-2010, 08:16 PM
I'll see if I can contact her. I've been wondering too.

Le Singe
01-14-2010, 05:54 PM
I have a question about the case I can't understand which of the following two is correct.

1. They found the safe open and some money (thousands) was missing, but there was still some money in the safe?

OR

2. They found the safe open and all the money that was in the safe was taken, but there was money in his shirt and some in the bar that they did not take?

There is no way someone who had traditional robbery as a motive would break into the safe and take some but not all of the cash. It also bothers me that they left such a messy scene at the bar but were so organized at the house that no one could even tell anything was amiss. They even locked the door behind them. This just doesn’t add up to me.

I also don’t think that they were on the phone with an accomplice because why would they not have just done a home invasion in the middle for the night at your father’s house. It would make no sense for them to take the risk of a brazen daylight abduction somewhere else and call back to a third party.

So if my #1 (above) is correct then this is either something more complicated than what it first appears (motive wise) or it is robbery but the plan was to set up some sort of ruse or trick to get your father to have a significant amount of money on his person when he opened the bar that day and he inadvertently left the safe open when he took the money out. Although this seems like it would leave some kind of trail.

OR IF

#2 (above) is correct then it could be robbery but the killers knew about the safe and considered it the “prize” and they did not want to waste time looking around the bar for money. They also probably would not think someone would have $700+ in their shirt pocket so they did not think to look in his pockets or at least not his shirt pocket.

Any way I look at it, it really seems to me that there is no way this was something done randomly or even just a bar robbery. It either was robbery staged (meaning some other motive that is more personal) or a targeted robbery, that was either a set up or done by people that knew about his safe etc. These people either knew your father or knew people that knew your father and they heard stories about the safe etc. They had to somehow know that he was a man that would have access to large amounts of cash and could be tricked into carrying it in public or they knew about the safe. I would really be taking a hard look at the people your father knew and associated with and those people’s friends, definitely including the GF.

sillybilly
01-15-2010, 06:20 AM
Joe was known to lend money out. Am wondering if the family can think of someone Joe knew who was in dire financial straits at the time.

The fact that "thousands" were removed from the home safe, but "thousands" were left behind makes me think that Joe himself took the money out and had arranged to meet someone at the bar to lend them a lot of money. Could be that the $740 that was in his shirt pocket was set aside to pay some more bills that day. If he had "thousands" on him, that amount would not fit in a shirt pocket. IF this is the scenario, then somebody not only robbed Joe, but killed him as they had no intention of paying him back.

At one time I thought the above scenario would not involve the gf because if she needed money, he could have just given it to her at home. Then I remembered that she supposedly worked another job that morning, so I'm wondering if she was scheduled to work at the bar or was just going there to meet Joe when she got off work at her other job.

BTW, anybody know what's with the red pickup truck that is behind the crime scene tape at one point, and then not behind the crime scene tape at another point in the same video in the following link?

http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html#

sillybilly
01-17-2010, 11:36 PM
In the Jody Rilee Wilson thread, I enquired what her hubby did for a living. WSleuther sameole replied in Post 213:

Yes, it was answered. It was one of the questions I asked at the very beginning of this, and thought it may be an issue because he was a welder. The grandfather of one of the weleetka girls was a welder, and I believe Denise Stice, who was also found in water, was married to a welder also. Seems like an important point to me.

from Identified! OK-Female Body Found in (Heavener Runestone Park) - Page 9 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


MMD said Joe had been in the welding business with his brother.

GoBrewers
01-18-2010, 11:59 PM
I feel like there has to be a connection between the welding, and possibly the red Truck. This could be entirely wrong but the vehicle is similar in every picture, and is in before suddenly disappearing in the video.

1. There is a red truck at the pig out palace,
2. A red truck is seen at the incident taking place, said to be import, but the picture shows the similarities. I still dont understand why the person interviewed said only imports, hobbies with trucks, job, etc?
3. That last video the truck is in and then out of the taped off area. It makes me question if it is a media vehicle, but one would assume there would still not be allowed on site like that. Off-duty police, possibly?

I only say LE because of how suprisingly little Missingmydad is told, i hope your lawyer can help with that. I've read all the posts for this and cannot wait to hear some LE insight.

I am anxious to hear from Missingmydad, i hope the next message is good news!

Carolina Girl
01-19-2010, 12:45 AM
GoBrewers, WELCOME!

Soulmagent
01-19-2010, 03:09 AM
BTW, anybody know what's with the red pickup truck that is behind the crime scene tape at one point, and then not behind the crime scene tape at another point in the same video in the following link?

http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html#

The LE suv is moved as well it could have been the guy who showed up right before the girlfriend and they released his truck when they where finished. I dont know that the video would be displayed in order that it was shot. It would be interesting to hear if Missing remembers then truck when she arrived on the scene.

cc81
01-19-2010, 08:17 AM
MMD:
Any idea how many security cameras were in the bar?
Was there any outside?
where were they all located?

this case really pulls at the heart strings.. and the possible surveillance is really bugging me. If there's nothing on the video, the police need to tell you!

kwhit23
01-20-2010, 11:37 AM
BTW, anybody know what's with the red pickup truck that is behind the crime scene tape at one point, and then not behind the crime scene tape at another point in the same video in the following link?
The red truck behind the crime scene tape belongs to the girlfriend (the employee who came in) so it was there from the beginning, when LE got there. I think the OSBI had the vehicles moved away from the bar?

GoBrewers
01-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Does that make the girlfriend a person of interest? If there was a red truck spotted around the time of the incident, (and i realize there are more than one red truck made) is there a possibility that she (joes GF) got off work early enough to meet whoever was supposed to meet Joe? Was her truck there still when the police arrived, or did she walk/get a ride that day?

On a side note, i think the welding could be more connected to a mechanic, was the auto part Joe bought that morning found?

kwhit23
01-20-2010, 02:36 PM
Does that make the girlfriend a person of interest? If there was a red truck spotted around the time of the incident, (and i realize there are more than one red truck made) is there a possibility that she (joes GF) got off work early enough to meet whoever was supposed to meet Joe? Was her truck there still when the police arrived, or did she walk/get a ride that day?

On a side note, i think the welding could be more connected to a mechanic, was the auto part Joe bought that morning found?


I can't say if the gf is a person of interest or not, but ALOT of people drive red trucks, and her's is a full size chevy, not a small import?? She is the one who called the police, i believe. So yes, her truck was there when they got there (she was driving it that day). I don't know what time she might have gotten off work from her other job. I also don't know if the LE knew about "the red truck" that was reported at the time or if her's was checked out or not?
Not sure about the part either, have never heard what he bought that day. But I don't believe that his welding would have anything to do with it. Just a coincidence with Jody Wilson's husband, IMO.

sillybilly
01-20-2010, 05:22 PM
The red truck behind the crime scene tape belongs to the girlfriend (the employee who came in) so it was there from the beginning, when LE got there. I think the OSBI had the vehicles moved away from the bar?

Hi kwhit, and Welcome :)

Thanks for that info on the truck. Too bad LE swooped in with their vehicle so close to the front entrance (might have obscured some other tracks that could have proved valuable).

sillybilly
01-20-2010, 06:37 PM
But I don't believe that his welding would have anything to do with it. Just a coincidence with Jody Wilson's husband, IMO.
<snip>

Yes, could be just an odd coincidence, and maybe it is fairly ordinary in the country to have a lot of guys that have taken welding courses, but we have:

Jody's husband Bo is a welder
Taylor Placker's dad is a welder
Denise Stice's husband is a welder
Joe Neff was a welder and his brother is a welder
Joe and his brother ran the welding business together

I'm not sure we know where Denise Stice's husband hails from, but it would be worth finding out if he ever lived in or was raised in closer proximity to the other victims/relatives in the more southeast part of OK at some point, and where they all took their welding training/certification.

With hearing that Jody was known to have been at the Long Branch at some point, am wondering if Jody and Bo would have gone there together, or if Jody was known to go to bars solo.

kwhit23
01-20-2010, 07:10 PM
Hi kwhit, and Welcome :)



Hello sillybilly and Thank you. Don't know how much help I can be if any, but I would certainly like to get some other perspectives on this case.

Kimster
01-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Welcome to Websleuths, kwit23! I am glad you are here helping with this case! I would like nothing more than to find the one(s) responsible for killing Joe!

kwhit23
01-20-2010, 07:21 PM
<snip>

Yes, could be just an odd coincidence, and maybe it is fairly ordinary in the country to have a lot of guys that have taken welding courses, but we have:

Jody's husband Bo is a welder
Taylor Placker's dad is a welder
Denise Stice's husband is a welder
Joe Neff was a welder and his brother is a welder
Joe and his brother ran the welding business together



Yes, it is a fairly common trade here. My dad is a welder, so is my brother, my neighbor and my best friends husband, just to name a few. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone in SE OK who doesn't have some connection to a welder??
I am sorry, I am not familiar with the other cases you mentioned. Is Taylor Placker's dad and Denice Stice's husband, persons of interest in their cases? Could be something maybe. Alot of guys around here go to the vo-tech and grow up welding. I just don't think I understand the connection, are we thinking that all the victims/or families knew someone that is a welder that killed all of them?

kwhit23
01-20-2010, 07:28 PM
Welcome to Websleuths, kwit23! I am glad you are here helping with this case! I would like nothing more than to find the one(s) responsible for killing Joe!

Thanks Kimster, me too. Maybe this will help. Do you know if other cases have been solved on here before? I am new to all of this and haven't had time to really read the site over well. Any info or pointers would really be appreciated. Thanks again!

sameole
01-20-2010, 08:11 PM
There is a case back when I was first involved with the Weleetka girls that just totally shocked me. I had formulated a theory based on other cases that were unsolved. I was up for fourty hours straight at the computer. Coffee and cigarettes. Denise Stice, the weleetka girls, Joann Stephens. (s.i.c.). American Legion Posts and VFW posts were all in the vicinity of these killings. But, I based this on what I knew about my suspect, Dan. MMD has his name. I had contacted the OSBI 3 or 4 times over the course of a few weeks, originally because Dan showed up here in my corner bar right on the heels of the weleetka girls murders, after a two year abscense. I knew enough about his habits up here to assume he was living the same way out there. Sure enough, the day I called with my theory, they pulled Joann Stephens out of a river still in her truck after missing for a year! It is one of the first questions I asked MMD when I got on here, "was your dad a member of the American Legion or VFW. Ask her youself.
Joann Stephens left her house without her purse, or cigarettes for a job at a warehouse up in Oklahoma city. She was missing for a year. Officially, they say two kids found her car sticking out of the river. Very similiar to Jody. Denise Stice was on her way to work. Found in Water. Her wedding ring was intact. Very similiar to Jody. This is why I don't think bo is involved.
All I can say is, the police, etc, need to get their game face on because there is just too much of this out there. I can't even begin to tell you how far some of this stretched. Dan's ex girlfriend was busted a few months after my tip in west branch mi, for selling cocaine out of Bucemis' pizzaria, right across the street from the Ogemaw county Sheriffs. They apparently were the only ones in town who didn't know she was a drug dealer. Everyone else did. There, I vented.

sameole
01-20-2010, 08:18 PM
P.S. there is a short little site on here for Joann Stphens. I think it is important to these cases. I promise I won't keep repeating myself. Repeating myself.

sameole
01-20-2010, 08:25 PM
Yes, it is a fairly common trade here. My dad is a welder, so is my brother, my neighbor and my best friends husband, just to name a few. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone in SE OK who doesn't have some connection to a welder??
I am sorry, I am not familiar with the other cases you mentioned. Is Taylor Placker's dad and Denice Stice's husband, persons of interest in their cases? Could be something maybe. Alot of guys around here go to the vo-tech and grow up welding. I just don't think I understand the connection, are we thinking that all the victims/or families knew someone that is a welder that killed all of them?


kwhit23
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#457 Today, 07:28 PM
Well, I think what seems to connect all of these welders is the welders union or something like that. Someone at the social security office, or the insurance companiess that handle welders. That's where I'am at with it. For instance, Jody had a baby, insurance. She had post partum depression. insurance. Taylor Placker was living with her grandparents. Social Security. Joe was getting ready to retire. Social Security. Just food for thought. Joann Stephens, depressed, and according to her husband, "didn't take her pills with her." Insurance.

Kimster
01-20-2010, 08:35 PM
Thanks Kimster, me too. Maybe this will help. Do you know if other cases have been solved on here before? I am new to all of this and haven't had time to really read the site over well. Any info or pointers would really be appreciated. Thanks again!

Yes, there has been a missing person found with help here, but the family asked that we not discuss it. And the members here have made connections between unidentified and missing persons more than once. Another group put on the pressure to finally get a POS arrested. LE has also used information from WS to help create cases against criminals. :)

ETA: Here's a link to where Tricia, the owner of WS, discusses Websleuths: http://www.voiceamerica.com/voiceamerica/vshow.aspx?sid=1306

SuziQ
01-20-2010, 09:03 PM
Kimster, your link didn't take me to an episode. Is the below link the correct one?

http://www.voiceamerica.com/voiceamerica/vepisode.aspx?aid=43873

Roselvr
01-21-2010, 08:45 AM
There is a case back when I was first involved with the Weleetka girls that just totally shocked me. I had formulated a theory based on other cases that were unsolved. I was up for fourty hours straight at the computer. Coffee and cigarettes. Denise Stice, the weleetka girls, Joann Stephens. (s.i.c.). American Legion Posts and VFW posts were all in the vicinity of these killings. But, I based this on what I knew about my suspect, Dan. MMD has his name. I had contacted the OSBI 3 or 4 times over the course of a few weeks, originally because Dan showed up here in my corner bar right on the heels of the weleetka girls murders, after a two year abscense. I knew enough about his habits up here to assume he was living the same way out there. Sure enough, the day I called with my theory, they pulled Joann Stephens out of a river still in her truck after missing for a year! It is one of the first questions I asked MMD when I got on here, "was your dad a member of the American Legion or VFW. Ask her youself.
Joann Stephens left her house without her purse, or cigarettes for a job at a warehouse up in Oklahoma city. She was missing for a year. Officially, they say two kids found her car sticking out of the river. Very similiar to Jody. Denise Stice was on her way to work. Found in Water. Her wedding ring was intact. Very similiar to Jody. This is why I don't think bo is involved.
All I can say is, the police, etc, need to get their game face on because there is just too much of this out there. I can't even begin to tell you how far some of this stretched. Dan's ex girlfriend was busted a few months after my tip in west branch mi, for selling cocaine out of Bucemis' pizzaria, right across the street from the Ogemaw county Sheriffs. They apparently were the only ones in town who didn't know she was a drug dealer. Everyone else did. There, I vented.

I remember when you posted all that.

sillybilly
01-22-2010, 03:35 AM
Yes, it is a fairly common trade here. My dad is a welder, so is my brother, my neighbor and my best friends husband, just to name a few. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone in SE OK who doesn't have some connection to a welder??
I am sorry, I am not familiar with the other cases you mentioned. Is Taylor Placker's dad and Denice Stice's husband, persons of interest in their cases? Could be something maybe. Alot of guys around here go to the vo-tech and grow up welding. I just don't think I understand the connection, are we thinking that all the victims/or families knew someone that is a welder that killed all of them?

BBM

Not necessarily khwit ... just pointing out something of interest that may be considered as POSSIBLY relevant when we are looking at UNSOLVED homicides. No more of a coincidence than if the victims all had brown hair or 6 toes, etc.

robertjacksonjr
01-23-2010, 03:22 AM
Information on Gerald Donald Stice. He is the husband of murder victim Denise Stice.

http://denisesticemurder.blogspot.com/

GoBrewers
01-25-2010, 02:02 PM
missingmydad, its been 25days....any updates possible?

Roselvr
01-25-2010, 02:45 PM
I've tried contacting her a few times.
I ended up asking Jody's aunt if she's seen missingmydad & she said she has.

Hopefully she will check in when she's emotionally able to.

.

Kimster
01-25-2010, 02:50 PM
I've tried contacting her a few times.
I ended up asking Jody's aunt if she's seen missingmydad & she said she has.

Hopefully she will check in when she's emotionally able to.

.

Thank you for the update! :blowkiss: I also tried to contact her and didn't hear back. Let's all keep her in our thoughts and prayers! We do have a special thread for her in the Jury Room.

If you are a guest, the Jury Room is a private forum for members only. Be sure to register to be a Websleuths member today so you can also leave missingmydad a heartfelt message!

Soulmagent
01-26-2010, 01:52 AM
Yes, it is a fairly common trade here. My dad is a welder, so is my brother, my neighbor and my best friends husband, just to name a few. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone in SE OK who doesn't have some connection to a welder??
I am sorry, I am not familiar with the other cases you mentioned. Is Taylor Placker's dad and Denice Stice's husband, persons of interest in their cases? Could be something maybe. Alot of guys around here go to the vo-tech and grow up welding. I just don't think I understand the connection, are we thinking that all the victims/or families knew someone that is a welder that killed all of them?


kwhit23
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#457 Today, 07:28 PM
Well, I think what seems to connect all of these welders is the welders union or something like that. Someone at the social security office, or the insurance companiess that handle welders. That's where I'am at with it. For instance, Jody had a baby, insurance. She had post partum depression. insurance. Taylor Placker was living with her grandparents. Social Security. Joe was getting ready to retire. Social Security. Just food for thought. Joann Stephens, depressed, and according to her husband, "didn't take her pills with her." Insurance.

http://www.summerstreetcapital.com/team.asp 401 k's?

sillybilly
01-26-2010, 05:18 AM
We do have a special thread for her in the Jury Room.

I checked the Jury Room and the Parking Lot and can't find the thread anywhere kimster. Do you have a link you could send me. Thanks !!

SB

Roselvr
01-26-2010, 06:06 AM
.

Thoughts and prayers for Missingmydad



.

sameole
01-28-2010, 08:50 PM
Couple's death ruled a homicide


By BOB GIBBINS

TAHLEQUAH DAILY PRESS —
Investigators continue today to look for answers in a double homicide that occurred during the Christmas holiday near the Cherokee-Mayes County line.


Jack Denney, 65, and his wife, Elaine Denney, 66, were found on the floor of their home on Iron Post Road Tuesday afternoon by their daughter. Cherokee County investigators were called to the scene and requested assistance from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.

OSBI Inspector Stan Florence said both victims were shot, and the case is being investigated as a double homicide. He said there was no sign of forced entry to the home.

Cherokee County Undersheriff Jason Chennault said law enforcement personnel are awaiting medical examiner reports to learn what caliber firearm inflicted the fatal wounds. Investigators also said there is no sign of a struggle and nothing appears to be missing or stolen.

Neighbors of the Denneys told reporters the couple were the nicest people around. Elaine would make handmade presents for people and they also loaned curtains and other items to help newcomers decorate their home. They were described as the "unofficial grandparents" of the neighborhood.

Chennault said the sheriff's office doesn't have that many problems in that area of the county.

Neighbors said Jack Denney recently retired from the Grand River Dam Authority and that he and Elaine were looking forward to some free time.

I think the date is Dec. 25, 2007

Kimster
01-28-2010, 09:07 PM
If someone can get word to Missingmydad - please let her know that WS did help detectives find the body of Abraham Shakespeare. I do hope she will return when she can and we can help her find her dad's killer.

Roselvr
01-29-2010, 08:40 AM
If someone can get word to Missingmydad - please let her know that WS did help detectives find the body of Abraham Shakespeare. I do hope she will return when she can and we can help her find her dad's killer.

She'll be back when she's able to emotionally handle it.
I'm sure coming here and reading/answering is not easy.. probably rips her heart open.

.

sillybilly
01-29-2010, 06:15 PM
...Do you know if other cases have been solved on here before? ...

These well-established forums are viewed by LE, and whether they are directly responsible for solving a specific crime, rest assured that all the fact-finding and ideas that show up here are useful to law enforcement.

sillybilly
02-01-2010, 05:39 PM
I do worry that these forums are far too intense for family members. Even though they think they can handle it, it has to really take its toll :(

MMD, if you are still around, could you please let me know if you have a relative named Mary N and, if so, what state she lives in? Thanks !!

missingmydad
02-05-2010, 12:41 AM
I do worry that these forums are far too intense for family members. Even though they think they can handle it, it has to really take its toll :(

MMD, if you are still around, could you please let me know if you have a relative named Mary N and, if so, what state she lives in? Thanks !!

Hello there! I am back. I just had a rough couple of months. I think I am doing better. I have a couple relatives with that name, all in Oklahoma. One actually passed away in a car wreck. She is buried right next to my dad. Does that name mean anything I may need to know? I have not had that question asked before so I am curious. Thank you so much. Let me know if I can help. I will try to get on here a little more often.

Kimster
02-05-2010, 12:44 AM
{{{{{{Missingmydad}}}}}}}} I just missed you in the Jury Room! I am so glad you are here! :blowkiss: Members have been working hard to help you and we've missed you!

There have been a lot of arrests in other cases lately which gives me so much hope that there will be an arrest soon in your dad's case! :hug:

missingmydad
02-05-2010, 12:47 AM
She'll be back when she's able to emotionally handle it.
I'm sure coming here and reading/answering is not easy.. probably rips her heart open.

.
I am back, its been rough, but I am doing better now. Even though this is hard, I would walk through fire everyday, if its going to help my dad. Thanks so much for the prayers. I am going to go back and get caught up ans start answering what I can. Thanks, love you guys!

missingmydad
02-05-2010, 01:11 AM
missingmydad, its been 25days....any updates possible?

UPDATES: I am back, and I am okay. I had a news interview with Channel 40/29 News out of Ft Smith Ark. yesterday. The big story is going to air on Monday night at 10 pm. This is also about Jody Wilson too. They are talking to the families about the time that has gone by. How it has affected us, etc. I will try to read and get caught up. I am really sorry I left you guys hanging. I have had a rough month, then me and kids been sick, too. I still do not have any other news. The rumors and everything have just hushed. I will see where the news story leads and let you know. Thank you all again!

sillybilly
02-05-2010, 01:15 AM
Hello there! I am back. I just had a rough couple of months. I think I am doing better. I have a couple relatives with that name, all in Oklahoma. One actually passed away in a car wreck. She is buried right next to my dad. Does that name mean anything I may need to know? I have not had that question asked before so I am curious. Thank you so much. Let me know if I can help. I will try to get on here a little more often.

Hi MMD ... it's good to hear from you. Take it real easy in this place, okay.

Last nite, I was sleuthing Facebook on the Szczepanik surname (missing Nebraska family) and came across the Jamison surname, one of whom had a FB connection to a Mary N (no location in her profile). Now today, I can't find it, but am still looking. Profile showed a very white-haired, grandmotherly looking lady, about 70 to 80. If I can find it again, I will definitely get it to you.

ETA: Good Lord ... I just looked up, and see I had made that discovery on Feb 1 NOT last nite !! Time flies in this place :)

missingmydad
02-05-2010, 02:03 AM
mmd says she and her sister didn't know how much money was in the safe, so it really bugs me who did know in order to inform le how much was missing.

It has been stated in jody's thread that she apparently knew the owners of "the bar" in poteau, and supposedly it was sold shortly after jody went missing on may 5. Wondering if joe was interested in buying that business, and somebody else didn't want that to happen.

Also, any idea how old joe's gf is, and what her criminal record is for? She sure has been kept out of the picture for some reason. Gotta wonder who she knows :waitasec:

Moo

not sure how the amount was determined. I have heard jody went to "the bar" and thats the name of it. Not sure of when this sold, but several bar maids from dads bar went to work there after dads murder, because we locked the doors and have not reopened. I heard she went to dads too but not as often. Dad was not going to buy another bar. The one he had kept him too busy. I still do not know what he bought at napa. Dads gf is only a few years older than me. I think maybe 45 and i am 38. I think she has some traffic tickets and dui on her record. Nothing else that i know of. She has not contacted us in several months. I think she has new bf.

missingmydad
02-05-2010, 02:05 AM
{{{{{{missingmydad}}}}}}}} i just missed you in the jury room! I am so glad you are here! :blowkiss: Members have been working hard to help you and we've missed you!

There have been a lot of arrests in other cases lately which gives me so much hope that there will be an arrest soon in your dad's case! :hug:
hugs to you, thank you so much, we are hoping that the news story on monday night will give us more insight.

sameole
02-05-2010, 04:12 AM
hugs to you, thank you so much, we are hoping that the news story on monday night will give us more insight.

I sure would like to watch that monday, but short of driving all the way to Ok. no way Jose'.

wadahoot
02-05-2010, 04:36 AM
UPDATES: I am back, and I am okay. I had a news interview with Channel 40/29 News out of Ft Smith Ark. yesterday. The big story is going to air on Monday night at 10 pm.
That's great MMD! It's SO important to keep your story out there, and I'm so pleased the press has agreed to do the story.
Could you please post the link, if they post it on their website?

Thanks, and it's good to see you back :grouphug:

GoBrewers
02-06-2010, 12:21 PM
MMD, great to hear youre back, and glad youre doing better...Is the red truck in the pictures at joes bar his gfs? (http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html#)

have you tried to have any information released by police on suspects, evidence, etc?

Also, monday i can check places like justin.tv, etc, ill look for a hosted weblink.

GoBrewers
02-06-2010, 12:38 PM
from the first page link..."Curnutt said the saloon was equipped with security cameras, but authorities have yet to review any footage."http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html

and from jody rilee wilson post #66..."Investigators are hopeful they will be able to check surveillance video to see who might have left the SUV behind."http://www.4029tv.com/news/19728819/detail.html

Maybe you should check the status of the security footage. JMO

Soulmagent
02-06-2010, 04:42 PM
from the first page link..."Curnutt said the saloon was equipped with security cameras, but authorities have yet to review any footage."http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html

and from jody rilee wilson post #66..."Investigators are hopeful they will be able to check surveillance video to see who might have left the SUV behind."http://www.4029tv.com/news/19728819/detail.html

Maybe you should check the status of the security footage. JMO

Why have they not reveiwed the footage yet? What are they waiting on ? Is it run by a computer and it was password protected? they could get past a password. Or is it something else like the security footage is missing and they can not locate it to reveiw it but do not want that public to know that?

sillybilly
02-06-2010, 05:50 PM
Why have they not reveiwed the footage yet? What are they waiting on ? Is it run by a computer and it was password protected? they could get past a password. Or is it something else like the security footage is missing and they can not locate it to reveiw it but do not want that public to know that?

Those are old articles from last May and June, soulmagent. Hopefully they have been able to find something by now. And yes, I would say IF they gleaned anything from them, they are keeping it quiet so as not to alert any POIs.

STEADFAST
02-08-2010, 07:47 AM
Just saw the promo for "Who Killed Joe Neff?" tonight at 10:00 on 40/29. It's a great, intriguing promo, and I think lots of people will watch the show. I'd certainly tune into it, even if I didn't already know about the case. Hope it brings in some leads!

Blondie in Spokane
02-08-2010, 07:56 AM
I sure am praying that this will bring some answers for MMD and family....please, dear God, make the appropriate person(s) come forward and divulge the necessary info to LE.

(Confession is good for the soul)

Roselvr
02-08-2010, 08:47 AM
Just saw the promo for "Who Killed Joe Neff?" tonight at 10:00 on 40/29. It's a great, intriguing promo, and I think lots of people will watch the show. I'd certainly tune into it, even if I didn't already know about the case. Hope it brings in some leads!

Have to switch to my windows computer to view this video

Who killed Joe Neff? (http://www.4029tv.com/video/22466735/index.html)


.

mysticrose
02-09-2010, 11:25 AM
Still No Leads In Slaying Of Poteau Bar Owner
Jo Neff Was Found Shot To Death In May 2009
POSTED: 4:39 pm CST February 8, 2010
UPDATED: 11:10 pm CST February 8, 2010


POTEAU, Okla. --
A local family continues the fight for answers, hoping their loved one's killer will be revealed.

On May 14, 2009, police uncovered a bloody crime scene inside the Long Branch Saloon, off Highway 59 in Poteau, Okla. The owner, Joe Neff, was missing and later found dead. Nearly 9 months later, the investigation has turned into a cold case.

On May 13, 2009, Marie Pitchford was on the phone with her dad, Joe Neff.

"I would go, 'Dad, it's your favorite daughter,' and he would go, "Well hello, Shawna.'”

Marie hung up the phone that night not knowing that was the last time she would ever speak to her father.

"I mean -- had I known, I wouldn't have hung up," she said.

the next day, she was at work when her sister told her there was an emergency.

"She got a phone call, and someone had told her. They found blood on his cowboy hat in the bar," Marie said.

As marie and Shawna drove to their father's bar in poteau, Marie wasn't prepared for what she was about to see.

"Sheriff's tape, the police line, do not cross -- at that moment, it was real. I begged them to let me across to see if it was really his hat," Marie said.

The Leflore County Sheriff's Department said it was Neff's girlfriend who came to open the bar that day. She found blood inside, and Neff's trademark cowboy hat had been left behind.

Neff's SUV was still parked outside of the bar, but he was nowhere to be found.

There is a surveillance camera that still remains in the bar. While police were investigating the crime last year, they said hey had the tape from this system. However, they would never say if it captured what happened in the bar. Neff's daughter said she's accepted that answer.

"I would not do anything to jeopardize the case. If it means me not knowing anything right now, I'm OK with that," Marie said.

The day Neff disappeared, witnesses told investigators they saw an older model red pickup parked at the bar. That vehicle has never been found, police said.

http://www.4029tv.com/news/22503039/detail.html

sameole
02-09-2010, 06:57 PM
With all due respect, it makes no damn sense why the police have sat on those tapes for nine months. There is only one reason I can think of, and I don't like it. Bull crap.

mysticrose
02-09-2010, 07:01 PM
I know sameole I was thinking the same thing. If there is anything on those tapes such as description and such they should at least be releasing something, very frustrating. I would think I would insist on viewing them if I was family. You don't have to share what you know but at least you would know. There is either something there or not. Bull carp is right !

GoBrewers
02-10-2010, 12:33 AM
The problem with the tapes are easy, MMD i sincerely believe evidence should be proven or disproved by now....ESPECIALLY since it says "still no leads"

I understand not releasing all information, but there are a lot of things are being ignored, (tapes, gfs name, etc)

Roselvr
02-10-2010, 05:15 PM
Not sure if anyone realized the video is on the link Mysticrose left Who Killed Joe Neff video (http://www.4029tv.com/news/22503039/detail.html). I assume it's what was on the other night?

Someone posted this on Topix - haven't read all of it yet.

Link to story- (http://www.newsok.com/fired-oklahoma-examiner-plans-lawsuit-attorney-says/article/3437612?custom_click=lead_story_title) Fired Oklahoma examiner plans lawsuit, attorney says
Board votes to terminate official after concerns were raised

Read more: http://www.newsok.com/fired-oklahoma-examiner-plans-lawsuit-attorney-says/article/3437612?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0fAnplvx Y


.

KariKae
02-15-2010, 04:24 PM
Hi MMD -

Did the news story help generate any activity on the case?

Carolina Girl
02-15-2010, 07:57 PM
Hang in there Girl. Sadly, sometimes we never get the answers. But I hope they get the killer for your Family. I still wonder how they know what was taken from the safe?

Blondie in Spokane
02-16-2010, 11:23 AM
Hi, MMD.....

We won't forget about your dad and your quest for justice on his behalf. How was the television coverage?

Am praying for answers for Joe and his family.....I have faith that answers will come.