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missingmydad
11-08-2009, 02:00 AM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:02 AM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.

{{{Hugs}}} Of COURSE we will help you!!! Do you have any links saved on your computer of the sites?

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:04 AM
Police Find Safe Ransacked At Joe Neff's Home


Police continue to search for bar owner Joe Neff, who hasn't been seen since a violent crime scene was discovered at his Long Branch Saloon in Poteau, Okla.

POSTED: 5:44 pm CDT May 15, 2009
UPDATED: 6:52 pm CDT May 15, 2009

POTEAU, Okla. -- Police said more signs of foul play have turned up in their search for a missing Oklahoma bar owner.

Joe Neff's girlfriend said that when she went to the Long Branch Saloon in Poteau at noon on Thursday, she found what police described as a violent crime scene.

On Friday, police searched Neff's home and found that his personal safe had been broken into. There were also thousands of dollars missing from the safe.

Police said they're looking for an older-model red import pickup truck that may have been in the area when Neff disappeared.

His family and friends said they're hopeful Neff is found quickly.

"Joe's the best man in the world," said friend J. Parker. "He'd do anything for anybody."

Neff's family is offering a $10,000 reward for any information that may lead to his whereabouts.

http://www.4029tv.com/news/19475932/detail.html

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:08 AM
Here is his picture and I must say, he was handsome!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/Kimba4jc/joeneff.jpg

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:14 AM
http://www.topix.com/city/poteau-ok/2009/05/joe-neff-bar-owner-missing-in-ok-since-may-13-2009-found/p2?threadid=9EFNOG79QCACVEB9

Post #32 is a touching tribute to Joe. We need to find his killer.

WholeLottaRosie
11-08-2009, 02:14 AM
HUGS Missingmydad! Welcome to WS!


My thoughts and prayers are with you MMD, and I hope we can do something here to help you!

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:23 AM
Wed May 13, 2009: Joe’s GF goes to Long Branch Saloon (Joe’s business) at 68155 US 59, near Poteau, OK and finds signs of a violent crime that includes blood. LE discovers money taken from a safe in his home.

Thursday May 14, 2009 at 9AM: Joe seen in a local store per a female friend.

Friday May 15, 2009: LE performs ground search and spends time at Joe’s home

Sunday May 17, 2009: Two fishermen find Joe in a strip pit off Davis Road in Pocola.

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:26 AM
http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html

This article said there were security cameras. There wasn't anything captured on them, I'm guessing?

mysterygirl
11-08-2009, 02:29 AM
Did someone know about his safe?
When he would be alone?

Former or current employees of bar?

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:31 AM
LeFlore County's 6 homicides unusually high

by: RON JACKSON NewsOK.com
Sunday, June 14, 2009
6/14/2009 3:52:40 AM

POTEAU — Six homicide cases have crossed the paths of LeFlore County authorities since Jan. 1, leaving many mystified and disturbed by the rash of killings in a relatively tranquil county of fewer than 50,000 people.

"LeFlore County is a pretty nice, quiet place to live," said District Attorney Jeff Smith. "I've raised four children here so obviously we like it here, but this is highly unusual to have this many deaths. On average, we've had one or two homicides a year — maybe."

Researchers would have to go back to 2002 when LeFlore County officials last handled six homicide cases, Smith said. Yet officials saw that total matched June 1 with the shooting death of a Cameron man during a neighborhood squabble.

"Someone suggested there might be something in the Poteau River water," said LeFlore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt, trying to find humor amid the sad string of events. "I don't know if this is tied to our struggling economy or stress or what. I just know the homicides are piling up.

"We literally had a homicide investigation the first minute of my administration on New Year's Day."

Here is a look at those cases:

Jan. 1: Mikal Morphis, 20, is stabbed during an altercation at a New Year's Eve party at his house. He dies shortly after midnight, marking the first homicide case for the newly elected Curnutt.

Jan. 28: A rancher finds the body of Allen Len Metzker, 28, of Shady Point in a ditch. Authorities determine Metzker was killed at the scene by multiple gunshots.

May 8: A paraglider flying over Poteau Mountain spots the decomposed body of Jody Rilee Wilson, 23, of Wister. A cause of death is still pending, according to Oklahoma State Medical Examiner spokeswoman Cherokee Ballard.

May 11: Aiden Furney, 3 1/2 months, is brought to the Eastern Oklahoma Medical Center in Poteau by her mother and the mother's live-in boyfriend. Aiden dies the next day from blunt-force trauma to the head, according to Ballard.

May 17: Fishermen find the body of popular bar owner Joe Neff, 61, of Poteau in the water of an old mining strip near Pocola. Neff, who had been missing since May 14, died of a gunshot wound to the head, Ballard said.

June 1: Heath Lomon, 37, of Cameron is shot to death across the street from his home during an altercation with a neighbor's hired workers. <snipped>

ETA: Some of these are solved...Have they determined what happened to Jody Wilson?

There definitely seems to be something wrong going on in such a lowly poplulated area!!!

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:33 AM
Did someone know about his safe?
When he would be alone?

Former or current employees of bar?

One of the articles said that he hadn't had any recent problems with bar patrons at all. I also read a comment that he only served beer at the bar. It looks like they injured him at the bar and then took him to his house to get into the safe.

mysterygirl
11-08-2009, 02:37 AM
I wonder if someone knew he had a safe at home? I doubt he would offer that info up when getting beat up but I'm just throwing thoughts out there.....

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Joe Neff, 61
Place: Poteau

Time elapsed: Four months, 20 days

Case summary: Police were called to Neff’s Long Branch Saloon off U.S. 59 on May 14 after a friend of Neff’s found a lot of blood, as well as Neff’s straw hat and cigarette lighter. Three days later fishermen found Neff’s body in an old mining strip 12 miles north near Pocola. He had been killed by a gunshot wound to the head. No arrests have been made.

Comment: "Go around town, and you’ll see where people have taken down posters about my dad’s case,” said a sobbing Marie Pitchford, Neff’s daughter. "I know it’s just a piece of paper to them, but that’s my father.<snipped>

Read more: http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-homicide-cases-linger-but-arent-cold/article/3406134#ixzz0WFe8Ja8Z

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:39 AM
I wonder if someone knew he had a safe at home? I doubt he would offer that info up when getting beat up but I'm just throwing thoughts out there.....

Very good question! Who knew about that safe?

Kimster
11-08-2009, 02:44 AM
Missingmydad: More members will be reading about your dad tomorrow. I'm going to go and read more about his case in the meantime. Please copy, correct and add to the timeline. Perhaps we have some other locals who will see this also. Also, please try to edit the headline to OK-Joe Neff - My dad's unsolved murder 2009, if you can. And when a Mod comes by, we'll get your thread moved over to the crime forum. (Just some housekeeping so that we are in the right spot for the sleuthers that specialize in solving murder cases).

And most important of all to me...:praying: we find his justice for your dad!!!

Kimster
11-08-2009, 03:04 AM
The missing Oklahoma family disappeared just one county over from where Joe was murdered...and then there is this case of Jody Wilson that Missingmydad mentioned in his/her first post: http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20091107/UPDATES01/91107015/Task+force+formed+in+OK+to+investigate+Roxbury+nat ive+s+suspicious+death

SuziQ
11-08-2009, 03:06 AM
Welcome to WS Missingmydad. Any ideas on who's taking your dad's posters down?

Kimster
11-08-2009, 03:08 AM
Welcome to WS Missingmydad. Any ideas on who's taking your dad's posters down?

Another good question! Also, on that Topix thread, the first post was very rude. I wonder if it is the same person? I wonder if LE was able to go through Topix and see who posted that?

ETA: Link to Topix comment: http://www.topix.com/city/poteau-ok/2009/05/joe-neff-bar-owner-missing-in-ok-since-may-13-2009-found?threadid=9EFNOG79QCACVEB9

SuziQ
11-08-2009, 03:18 AM
Kimster wow, someone certainly didn't like this guy. Girlfriends ex? Former business partner? Interesting.

Did this guy have a cell phone?

static
11-08-2009, 03:18 AM
Just a suggestion, the forensic astrology here is amazing...If you ask Tuba or Soulscape to help, I am sure they can do a chart for you hon. My heart goes out to you. Please check out the forensic astrology forum if you haven't yet.

Kimster
11-08-2009, 03:23 AM
Kimster wow, someone certainly didn't like this guy. Girlfriends ex? Former business partner? Interesting.

Did this guy have a cell phone?

I haven't read about his cell, no. I think we'll have to wait for Missingmydad to return and help us with more info at this point.

SuziQ
11-08-2009, 03:30 AM
She makes an interesting point about the strip pit in a post from Oct. 6th.

http://www.topix.com/city/poteau-ok/2009/05/joe-neff-bar-owner-missing-in-ok-since-may-13-2009-found/p2?threadid=9EFNOG79QCACVEB9

nurselady
11-08-2009, 04:51 AM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.
Bless your heart missingmydad,what is a strip pit?you have came to the right place the people here are fantastic they will gladly help any way they can.

dreamweaver
11-08-2009, 04:55 AM
Welcome Missingmydad to WS.

Poteau, OK population is about 8000.

dreamweaver
11-08-2009, 04:57 AM
http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html
Joe Neff's obituary notice.

dreamweaver
11-08-2009, 05:08 AM
http://www.4029tv.com/video/21108655/index.html
video

http://www.4029tv.com/news/21108591/detail.html
'snipped

It can be frustrating after a point in time, but you just have to keep working at it for two reasons," said LeFlore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt. "We want to get justice for the deceased and their family."

Pitchford said her father deserves to rest in peace because in life he was not just a business man, but was someone everyone knew and could count.

"He was the go to guy if you needed anything," Pitchford said. "I don't care if it was a car, if it was money or food on Sundays."

Pitchford said returning to her father's business would be too difficult, which is why the family decided to put the saloon up for sale.

The family has setup a $10,000 reward for information that leads to the arrest and conviction of his killer. Anyone with information is asked to call the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations at 1-800-522-8017 or the LeFlore County Sheriff's Department at 918-647-2317. The family said all calls will be kept confidential.

dreamweaver
11-08-2009, 05:13 AM
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=1134094&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US
Missing Jamison family from OK.

The area where their pickup was found very near Joe Neff's hometown.

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 07:02 AM
Pitchford said returning to her father's business would be too difficult, which is why the family decided to put the saloon up for sale.

Thanks for posting the link Dream.

My question, before the bar gets sold, is the family sure everything has been done inside to find out what happened?

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 07:03 AM
My dad was murdered May 14, 2009. After 3 days of us hunting for him, he was found shot and dumped into a strip pit.No known enemies, local business owner his entire life. Very well like & respected in this community. Would anyone please take a look at any of the articles regarding his murder and see if anyone has any ideas? Joe Neff, Poteau, Oklahoma. Channel 40/29 Hometown News & Poteau Daily News & Sun has covered this story from day 1. His murder was a week and a half after the other unsolved murder of Jody Rilee Wilson in Heavener. As of yesterday the LE brought in 2 FBI 2 US Marshalls 2 more OSBI They formed a new task force to solve these 2 unsolved murders. Lets hope we get some answers.

Welcome to the forum, I know of your dad's case from your posts on Topix in Jody's threads.
I'm sorry your dad was taken from you.

Can you do us a favor? Can you google map the area he was found? I tried and am not seeing what you see.

It's possible I'm going to email you.

Debbie Miller
11-08-2009, 07:20 AM
This definately sounds like the perp is someone who knows Mr. Neff's business (safe at house).

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 08:51 AM
Did someone know about his safe?

My guess is yes; people probably knew about the safe.
This is just assumption.
We had a floor safe at our gas station; wasn't a secret.
At one time I had a floor safe in my own house; again, not a secret.

Have they determined what happened to Jody Wilson?

No, a few of us have been working on it.
I've been sifting through 400+ posts at Topix.
There are lots of questions with Jody, yet not many facts.

One of the articles said that he hadn't had any recent problems with bar patrons at all. I also read a comment that he only served beer at the bar. It looks like they injured him at the bar and then took him to his house to get into the safe.


Hopefully his daughter will post where his house was in relation to everything else.

Case summary: Police were called to Neff’s Long Branch Saloon off U.S. 59 on May 14 after a friend of Neff’s found a lot of blood, as well as Neff’s straw hat and cigarette lighter. Three days later fishermen found Neff’s body in an old mining strip 12 miles north near Pocola. He had been killed by a gunshot wound to the head. No arrests have been made.

Read more: http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-homicide-cases-linger-but-arent-cold/article/3406134#ixzz0WFe8Ja8Z

I can't find a Davis Rd, only a Davis Street.
Would like to map this.

Hadn't seen the article of the 2 little girls.

I wonder if any of the bullets in these cases match.

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 08:54 AM
Some Oklahoma homicide cases linger, but aren’t cold (http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-homicide-cases-linger-but-arent-cold/article/3406134#ixzz0WFe8Ja8Z)

Did a quick map using this article - I do not have Jody nor the new family missing.

Google map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Anadarko+Oklahoma&daddr=Poteau,+Oklahoma+to:Highway+1,+Talihina,+OK+ 74571+(Buffalo+Valley+High+School)+to:Cordell,+Okl ahoma+to:Cheyenne,+Oklahoma+to:Weleetka&geocode=FTIqFwIdsusk-imF-9k-X6SthzG4y3Nt-jFstw%3BFY3gFgIduihc-ikZucImlfbKhzHNETUFRwT-hA%3BFVBQEgIdqMFV-iE6fesLVvfqxQ%3BFfB9GgIdhY4Z-imJummKPhKshzHOqwkjG3fzKg%3BFfFsHwIdOiIP-ik36Ta7fmOphzFapHPlv0MIXQ%3B&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=35.135633,-95.386047&sspn=3.270055,4.54834&ie=UTF8&z=7)

angelmom
11-08-2009, 09:06 AM
Wed May 13, 2009: Joe’s GF goes to Long Branch Saloon (Joe’s business) at 68155 US 59, near Poteau, OK and finds signs of a violent crime that includes blood. LE discovers money taken from a safe in his home.

Thursday May 14, 2009 at 9AM: Joe seen in a local store per a female friend.

Friday May 15, 2009: LE performs ground search and spends time at Joe’s home

Sunday May 17, 2009: Two fishermen find Joe in a strip pit off Davis Road in Pocola.

Okay, is it just me or is this really weird?

I hope LE has nailed down this female friend to see if she has her dates wrong.

If she is not mistaken about the day, then was he beat up when she saw him? With anyone? Looking distressed? What was he buying?

Because a violent, bloody altercation had taken place the day before at the bar! Have they determined that it is his blood?

I just don't understand how he could be in a store acting normally and not all beat up the day after they find that scene. This needs to be looked into. And hopefully there is surveillance video at that store.

badhorsie
11-08-2009, 09:31 AM
((((((((((((Missmydad)))))))))))))

Welcome to websleuths. I hope we can help you get justice for your dad:blowkiss:

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 10:00 AM
Okay, is it just me or is this really weird?

I hope LE has nailed down this female friend to see if she has her dates wrong.

If she is not mistaken about the day, then was he beat up when she saw him? With anyone? Looking distressed? What was he buying?

Because a violent, bloody altercation had taken place the day before at the bar! Have they determined that it is his blood?

I just don't understand how he could be in a store acting normally and not all beat up the day after they find that scene. This needs to be looked into. And hopefully there is surveillance video at that store.

IMO, she has her dates wrong. She probably saw him the same day the crime scene was found. Makes no sense otherwise.

The biggest question I would have is if the blood in the bar is determined to be Joe's?

Debbie Miller
11-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Could it be possible that the perp first encountered Mr Neff at his home and then took him to the bar for more money? With Mr. Neff being shot in the head this would seem a possibility.

Where was his girlfriend when all this went down? Did she live with him or had her own place?

If the girlfriend went to the bar at noon, then what time had Mr. Neff gone there?

Masterj
11-08-2009, 11:11 AM
I am really sorry for your loss missingmydad. Much love and prayers to you and your family.

How many people did this bar employ? I see that there were security cameras at the bar but one of the above articles mentioned they haven't been viewed yet. Has that since happned? When I worked at a bar, we all knew where the security cameras where, how to disable them or where to stand / walk if we didn't want the cameras to see what we were doing. I realize that sounds rather nefarious but there were a couple of times we wanted to avoid the cameras if we were sneaking a smoke after hours while cleaning up.

What about bar regulars? Most bars have a loyal group of regulars who notice anything or anyone out of the norm. I didn't have a bouncer where I worked, and the regulars really looked out for me and alerted me to any potential issues I might not have been aware of. I see that his girlfriend was an employee. Is there anyone who may have been angered by their relationship? How were the bar's financials - any unpaid debts? How about any recent work done in the bar - anyone new coming in and out like construction workers working on something, electritions? beer, food or equipment distributors? Plumbers, inspectors, or exterminators? Did the bar play music or have a jukebox? If so, who maintained that?

While I think the topix comment should be looked into, I find many topix posters just spew trollish nonsense to rile people up.

mysticrose
11-08-2009, 11:15 AM
Snipped comment Missingmydad post #22

The owner of the property lives by the entrance. He sees all that goes on there. If you did not know it was there you could not find it. It is not visable from the road.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Type in Davis Rd.(runs horizontally) or Melvin S****, the owner. It looks as if you are in a small plane over it. Looking at your screen the strip pit rd on your left, his driveway and home on your right, vertically. You can see the one on left curves around and you can see the water and trees and bushes. Thats where he was was found. Someone out there knows something

http://www.topix.com/city/poteau-ok/2009/05/joe-neff-bar-owner-missing-in-ok-since-may-13-2009-found/p2?threadid=9EFNOG79QCACVEB9

************************************************** ************************************************** **

Here is a map of the general area where he was found according to Missingmydad above comment the address would be 1500 Davis St,Pocola, OK 74902:
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=35.22783~-94.514061&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

Kimster
11-08-2009, 11:22 AM
Great posts that have been adding since I was here at midnight! I have to be gone for much of the day and am anxious to see what else you guys bring up and hopefully Missingmydad will have a chance to return.

I'm not a psychic in any way, but for some reason, the missing OK family was buzzing around my head last night...and then now I find out they were that close? Do we have a serial killer in the area???

mistivon
11-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Okay, is it just me or is this really weird?

I hope LE has nailed down this female friend to see if she has her dates wrong.

If she is not mistaken about the day, then was he beat up when she saw him? With anyone? Looking distressed? What was he buying?

Because a violent, bloody altercation had taken place the day before at the bar! Have they determined that it is his blood?

I just don't understand how he could be in a store acting normally and not all beat up the day after they find that scene. This needs to be looked into. And hopefully there is surveillance video at that store.

EXACTLY what I was thinking. This info or date HAS to be wrong.

ETA: if his COD was a bullet to the head, then the blood at the bar would seem to be from a physical altercation whether before or after the home visit. He looks pretty tough...wonder if they typed all the blood? Also wonder when he was last seen vs this all found, and does he have any male inlaws or other family....anyone he's maybe had to throw out of the bar, any sour business deal....kinda need to know that stuff....if we get motive, we have man.

Kimster
11-08-2009, 11:23 AM
I am really sorry for your loss missingmydad. Much love and prayers to you and your family.


While I think the topix comment should be looked into, I find many topix posters just spew trollish nonsense to rile people up. <snipped> and BBM

You can say that again! The trolls in the Wix case have been RUTHLESS.

mysticrose
11-08-2009, 11:25 AM
Great posts that have been adding since I was here at midnight! I have to be gone for much of the day and am anxious to see what else you guys bring up and hopefully Missingmydad will have a chance to return.

I'm not a psychic in any way, but for some reason, the missing OK family was buzzing around my head last night...and then now I find out they were that close? Do we have a serial killer in the area???

God I hope not ! After Psycho Man in Ohio they just picked up on numerous killings ( 11) so far, I can't take much more serial killers..

Roselvr
11-08-2009, 12:49 PM
EXACTLY what I was thinking. This info or date HAS to be wrong.

ETA: if his COD was a bullet to the head, then the blood at the bar would seem to be from a physical altercation whether before or after the home visit. He looks pretty tough...wonder if they typed all the blood?

This is why I'm not sure selling the bar or allowing anyone else in until another team can come in.

kellync
11-08-2009, 01:04 PM
As a former co owner of a small bar, the first thing that comes to my mind are drug addicts. It didnt matter if there was $3.00 or $300.00, they would do anything to get to it. I cant shake the feeling that this may have been due to robbery for drug money. I have experienced this firsthand, although I am trying to be objective and not project my own bias here.
I am very sorry for your loss, I hope they find this scum ASAP. If it was drug related, people will start talking soon. Most of those idiots cant keep their mouths shut for too long

wfgodot
11-08-2009, 01:13 PM
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=1134094&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US
Missing Jamison family from OK.

The area where their pickup was found very near Joe Neff's hometown.

Poteau's about half an hour from Red Oak; it looks like the Sans Bois Mountain is even closer, you're right---maybe 20 crow-fly miles.

ctipling
11-08-2009, 01:34 PM
Welcome Missingmydad! So sorry we all have to meet under the current circumstances, but WS bunch are fantastic at finding details others brushed aside! As a fellow Okie, just south of Tulsa, I sure want to catch who ever did this to your dad!!!

Yes, there are several murders, missing, currently unsolved in that county and close to it, such as the missing family. But I am inclined to believe this murder was an isolated incedent and definatley someone(s) who knew him or possibly knew someone who knew him and believed him to have a bunch of cash. Sure could be drug related as far as people stealing cash for drugs and yes they will go to great lengths for even a small amount.

Gonna go pour over what all I can find n see if I notice anything that hasn't been brought up

BIG(((HUGSSSSSS))))

WhyaDuck?
11-08-2009, 02:15 PM
My sympathy to you and your family, missingmydad. I am sorry that it took something like this to bring you to WS, and I hope you all see justice soon, for whatever comfort that can bring in your time of loss.

Houston Homer
11-08-2009, 04:56 PM
Welcome to Websleuths, missingmydad, albeit through the worst of circumstances for you. Praying for you and your family. You are certainly at the right place for help. I am AMAZED every day by the work the great sleuthers do here. I hope justice is found soon for your dad.

TheMeaningOfItAll
11-08-2009, 08:52 PM
Welcome, Missingmydad! I too am so sorry for your loss. There are GREAT people here on WS and I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you and your family in the hopes they can help solve your father's murder. I think the other WSers are on track with their questioning. I'm wondering, too, how the GF has reacted to all this. You can PM us if you don't want to put her reactions out there in webworld for all to see. Does she have an ex that would be upset with your father. Is there a former employee/ex friend that would have knowledge of your father's comings and goings? Also, life insurance. Anyone who would benefit from that? I'm sure these are all areas that have been explored by you but I thought I'd toss it out there--just in case. *Hugs* to you.

Soulmagent
11-09-2009, 12:35 AM
It seems to me that the money in the safe was the main motive the article says 1000's of dollars. Have they looked into employees at the bar past and present. Even contractors for flooring roof work etc. I do think it was someone whos only way to get to him was at the bar but who knew he had cash. Otherwise couldnt they have risked a lot less by going to the home first verses the fight at the bar? Why couldnt they have broke into his house without him home and took the safe why the need to murder him? Unless it was someone who stood to gain from his death but then why not take him out of the bar ? I wont pretend not to be curious about the GF But I do tend to think it isnt really extremely close, It seems as they needed information from him (the location of his safe) Of course he could have offered up the safe at his house as a way to aviod being killed.

mysticrose
11-09-2009, 03:57 PM
New eyes on evidence
Monday, 09 November 2009

Members of the task force formed to investigate the Joe Neff murder and the Jody Rilee-Wilson suspicious death met at the courthouse on Friday.
PDN photo by Laura Young
By Laura Young
Managing Editor

Two crimes that have remained unsolved for nearly six months will have fresh eyes looking at the evidence.
A task force was formed approximately three weeks ago. The primary goal is to solve the Joe Neff and Jody Rilee-Wilson cases.
Neff was from Poteau and the owner of the Long Branch Saloon. Rilee-Wilson was from Wister.
According to LeFlore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt, the task force is made up of law enforcement personnel from the Sheriff's office, the district attorney's office, the U.S. Marshal's Office, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation from the McAlester office.
"We formed this task force a few weeks ago and got together today (Friday) here at the courthouse," Curnutt said. "We feel fresh eyes on the evidence will help give us a fresh perspective. OSBI and the FBI also have added resources that we don't have and they are willing to use those resources in any way they can to help solve these crimes."
The badly decomposed body of Rilee-Wilson was discovered May 8 by a paraglider flying over Poteau Mountain near Heavener.
Her vehicle was recovered in the parking lot of Pig Out Palace off I-40 in Henryetta on June 12. The incident is being investigated as a suspicious death.
Neff was murdered May 14 at the Long Branch Saloon located on Long Lake Road off Highway 59. However, his body was not recovered until May 17 when two fishermen made the discovery in a strip pit near Pocola

http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/167750/1/

nursebeeme
11-09-2009, 04:00 PM
this is great news about the task force~

mysticrose
11-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Can anyone tell me does the Us Marshall's office usally get involved when investigating crimes?

YellowDog
11-09-2009, 04:17 PM
Sorry about your loss, missingmydad. The first thing that comes to my mind is why would your father keep so much money at home in a safe? Did the girlfriend know about the safe? Her story doesn't seem to jive. I'd be looking at her and her friends closely.
The next thing I'd be looking at closely would be how many people knew there was a safe at your father's house? News like that could travel like "wildfire" in a small town.

I also think it would have to be someone from around there who knew where the strip pit was located. I grew up in Oklahoma and some of the teens used to go to the strip pits to swim.

dgfred
11-09-2009, 04:45 PM
The GF and the friend that saw him the next morning would be where I would start.

Roselvr
11-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Neff was murdered May 14 at the Long Branch Saloon located on Long Lake Road off Highway 59. However, his body was not recovered until May 17 when two fishermen made the discovery in a strip pit near Pocola

I guess according to this article the blood has been confirmed his.

I also think it would have to be someone from around there who knew where the strip pit was located. I grew up in Oklahoma and some of the teens used to go to the strip pits to swim.

What is a strip pit?

Roselvr
11-09-2009, 04:50 PM
Double post..

WS was acting up

wfgodot
11-09-2009, 05:00 PM
What is a strip pit?

It's an open cut used in surface mining into the topsoil and rock atop the mineral area to be mined. Abandoned surface mines---a.k.a. "strip pits"---fill up with water and can be stocked for fishing or used for swimming.

dreamweaver
11-09-2009, 05:00 PM
http://www.answers.com/topic/strip-pit
A coal or other mine worked by stripping. An open-pit mine.

http://www.ks-mo-hunt.org/strip_pit_fishing.htm
This is from KS, but the idea is the same.
Remembering that Mr Neff's body found by fishermen at the stip pit.

http://www.ilfishing.com/articles/strippit1.html

Roselvr
11-09-2009, 05:19 PM
It's an open cut used in surface mining into the topsoil and rock atop the mineral area to be mined. Abandoned surface mines---a.k.a. "strip pits"---fill up with water and can be stocked for fishing or used for swimming.

http://www.answers.com/topic/strip-pit
A coal or other mine worked by stripping. An open-pit mine.

http://www.ks-mo-hunt.org/strip_pit_fishing.htm
This is from KS, but the idea is the same.
Remembering that Mr Neff's body found by fishermen at the stip pit.

http://www.ilfishing.com/articles/strippit1.html

Thank you to both of you.

Normally I'm the google queen but didn't have time before.

I wonder if someone has a photo of the actual area Joe was found.

Nikolai
11-09-2009, 05:46 PM
Im sorry about your loss.

It seems there is a good amount of evidence and I have to believe LE will get this figured out, sometimes getting to the bottom of this kind of crime can take a long time.

From the looks of it he was injured and sort of taken hostage to get money from a home safe before being murdered, Im sure the bar was robbed as well. I cant believe there are no witnesses. From the fact it happened at his place of work and it seems nobody else was there at the time he was beaten up and the fact his safe was broken into makes me think Joe knew these people, maybe close friends, maybe just acquiantances at the bar.

Im not sure how much the girlfriend can be trusted, she probably knew about the safe, she probably knew the perfect time to abduct or when to attack Joe at his bar with no witnesses present. She could have put people up to it with the promise of payment. Im sure police have covered that and it seems shes not a person of interest. Its hard to believe someone random is to blame. Im not accusing her, she may be completely innocent and trustable, but she seems the logical first person to look into. She is also the person who came upon the crime scene.

Unfortunately all LE may be able to do is continue grinding until something such as a tip pops up. I think that will happen at some point.

YellowDog
11-09-2009, 06:04 PM
I guess according to this article the blood has been confirmed his.



What is a strip pit?

Where they do strip mining.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 10:58 AM
One of the articles said that he hadn't had any recent problems with bar patrons at all. I also read a comment that he only served beer at the bar. It looks like they injured him at the bar and then took him to his house to get into the safe.
we really do not think that he was ever brought back to the house, the house looked perfectly normal not one thing out of order. i feel like maybe they talked via cell phone and got the information that way

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 11:01 AM
this is great news about the task force~

this has been the best news me and my family have heard all year. we are so exited and hopeful to get some answers.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 11:04 AM
Where they do strip mining.

the strip pit can be found using google maps and type in davis road. the strip pits are very close to the river.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 11:56 AM
Wed May 13, 2009: Joe’s GF goes to Long Branch Saloon (Joe’s business) at 68155 US 59, near Poteau, OK and finds signs of a violent crime that includes blood. LE discovers money taken from a safe in his home.

Thursday May 14, 2009 at 9AM: Joe seen in a local store per a female friend.

Friday May 15, 2009: LE performs ground search and spends time at Joe’s home

Sunday May 17, 2009: Two fishermen find Joe in a strip pit off Davis Road in Pocola.

just to clarify: nothing happened on may 13th, may 14th he was seen at two area stores at around 10 am before noon same day they discovered the crime scene. may 15th safe broken into discovered, may 17th his body was found around 4pm

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-12-2009, 03:22 PM
just to clarify: nothing happened on may 13th, may 14th he was seen at two area stores at around 10 am before noon same day they discovered the crime scene. may 15th safe broken into discovered, may 17th his body was found around 4pm

Hi missingmydad

What a heartbreaking case. A family left fractured, ripped apart maybe, and no answers. I cannot express how sorry I am that you had to find WS at a time like this. BUT let me also say i've been around a while, and if this is the circumstances you are in, then this is the place you want to be.

Everyone around is awesome at sleuthing out small details and throwing around ideas. Also, the board has great mods to keep ugly people from coming in and spewing hate :(

I'm just curious and I know it has been asked before, but was it documented what your father purchased? Was the saloon suppose to be open that early? and again, anything on his calenders like repair men or maybe even, had your dad had his locks replaced at home for anything? Maybe someone saw the safe and a team attacked him, meaning two men, one at the residence (as mentioned before) and one there with your father.

Once again I am so so sorry and I hope justice is brought to this individual that I will refrain from calling a human being very very soon :(

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Missingmydad: More members will be reading about your dad tomorrow. I'm going to go and read more about his case in the meantime. Please copy, correct and add to the timeline. Perhaps we have some other locals who will see this also. Also, please try to edit the headline to OK-Joe Neff - My dad's unsolved murder 2009, if you can. And when a Mod comes by, we'll get your thread moved over to the crime forum. (Just some housekeeping so that we are in the right spot for the sleuthers that specialize in solving murder cases).

And most important of all to me...:praying: we find his justice for your dad!!!

i went in and tried to edit the headline and i cannot figure out how to do it, any suggestions?

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:00 PM
Hi missingmydad

What a heartbreaking case. A family left fractured, ripped apart maybe, and no answers. I cannot express how sorry I am that you had to find WS at a time like this. BUT let me also say i've been around a while, and if this is the circumstances you are in, then this is the place you want to be.

Everyone around is awesome at sleuthing out small details and throwing around ideas. Also, the board has great mods to keep ugly people from coming in and spewing hate :(

I'm just curious and I know it has been asked before, but was it documented what your father purchased? Was the saloon suppose to be open that early? and again, anything on his calenders like repair men or maybe even, had your dad had his locks replaced at home for anything? Maybe someone saw the safe and a team attacked him, meaning two men, one at the residence (as mentioned before) and one there with your father.

Once again I am so so sorry and I hope justice is brought to this individual that I will refrain from calling a human being very very soon :(

thank you so much, at about 10 am the day he died he had paid his water bill and bought a part for something at a napa store, not sure what it was. the store is maybe 7 minutes from the bar. he had owned it since 2000.there are pictures of the inside of this bar and the entrance, on kay sullivan realty. bar opens at noon. he showed up to get bar ready and a customer showed up at 11:45 front door unlocked blood inside with his cowboy hat and cigarette lighter on the floor. he walked around for a few minutes calling dads name to see if he was ok. then dads gf showed up, they called 911. we received a call from one of our friends that they had heard something had happened to dad. we raced out there only to find police tape everywhere. and no answers. we stayed til about 1 am then osbi left. we discovered safe next day, evening, which was fri, we stayed at his house thinking he may try to make it home if he had been injured. sunday we received the devastating call , they found his body. this was early evening, i think around 4 or so.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Sorry about your loss, missingmydad. The first thing that comes to my mind is why would your father keep so much money at home in a safe? Did the girlfriend know about the safe? Her story doesn't seem to jive. I'd be looking at her and her friends closely.
The next thing I'd be looking at closely would be how many people knew there was a safe at your father's house? News like that could travel like "wildfire" in a small town.

I also think it would have to be someone from around there who knew where the strip pit was located. I grew up in Oklahoma and some of the teens used to go to the strip pits to swim.

yes there were quite a few people that knew about the safe. it was too big to move without several people and you couldn't hurry

WhyaDuck?
11-12-2009, 04:05 PM
i went in and tried to edit the headline and i cannot figure out how to do it, any suggestions?

Since it's past the 24 hour edit window, I don't think you can edit the title yourself; however, one of the mods for this forum would be happy to help you, I am sure. Just write on their visitor walls and ask, leaving them the link to the thread and what you want it changed to. HTH.

ETA: The mod Adnoid is a mod for the crimes in the news forum; he should be able to do the things Kimster suggests. I will visit his wall and ask him to check this thread.

ETA2: I see you have already wall messaged him. I left him the link to the thread, so he should get to it when he can.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:06 PM
Can anyone tell me does the Us Marshall's office usally get involved when investigating crimes?

I am glad you asked that, I have never heard of this happening before but thank God I do not have any experience in this area. I do wonder how common it is for them to get involved. Does anyone out there know? Good question, thank you, if I find out I will post it.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-12-2009, 04:08 PM
thank you so much, at about 10 am the day he died he had paid his water bill and bought a part for something at a napa store, not sure what it was. the store is maybe 7 minutes from the bar. he had owned it since 2000.there are pictures of the inside of this bar and the entrance, on kay sullivan realty. bar opens at noon. he showed up to get bar ready and a customer showed up at 11:45 front door unlocked blood inside with his cowboy hat and cigarette lighter on the floor. he walked around for a few minutes calling dads name to see if he was ok. then dads gf showed up, they called 911. we received a call from one of our friends that they had heard something had happened to dad. we raced out there only to find police tape everywhere. and no answers. we stayed til about 1 am then osbi left. we discovered safe next day, evening, which was fri, we stayed at his house thinking he may try to make it home if he had been injured. sunday we received the devastating call , they found his body. this was early evening, i think around 4 or so.

Does his GF come in the bar all the time to see him or was it out of the norm? I really hate asking you such personal questions :(

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:09 PM
Since it's past the 24 hour edit window, I don't think you can edit the title yourself; however, one of the mods for this forum would be happy to help you, I am sure. Just write on their visitor walls and ask, leaving them the link to the thread and what you want it changed to. HTH.

thank you very much I am gonna try to do whatyou said but I am sooo computer illiterate hahaha. I appreciate the advice, thank you

gliving
11-12-2009, 04:32 PM
I am so sorry for your loss missingmydad.

To me, it sounds like a local. Joe is taken from his bar in Poteau and found at a strip pit 20 miles away. Someone that was familiar with the strip pit so maybe an avid sportsman; also a gun being used leads me to think it's a male. There is a small time frame from when he's last scene to when he goes missing. Almost like someone was waiting for him to open the bar, but also knowing the lunch crowd might be coming in. Also Joe is killed at the bar and taken away in the middle of the day. Were they looking for the bar safe when actually it's at Joe's home? When Joe is found at the strip pit, was it near a road or would they need a boat?

I think it's someone familiar with Joe's routine, that he had a safe, and someone familiar with the fishing pit.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Kimster wow, someone certainly didn't like this guy. Girlfriends ex? Former business partner? Interesting.

Did this guy have a cell phone?

that is the mystery. my dad had so many friends, there were over a thousand people at his funeral, this town is not that big, he knew and was friends with everyone. i am 38 and have never heard anyone talk bad about him, ever. his only business partner was his brother for the last 30 years or longer but dad was semi retired and just had the bar. the girlfriend was not from around here originally but she has been in poteau for a couple of years or so. no idea of any of her exs

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:34 PM
I haven't read about his cell, no. I think we'll have to wait for Missingmydad to return and help us with more info at this point.
his cell phone was never recovered.

rccook555
11-12-2009, 04:37 PM
his cell phone was never recovered.

That's interesting. Do you know if they done any "pings" on it to see if anything came up? I think the Girlfriend could stand to be scrutinized a bit further. IMO

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:41 PM
Welcome to WS Missingmydad. Any ideas on who's taking your dad's posters down?

i believe that the business owners or the employees just throw the wanted posters away as they clean the doors and windows, but we have hung so many then to go back and they are gone makes me angry. i mean this is not a yard sale sign, this hunt will not end until we have his killer(s) behind bars.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:42 PM
That's interesting. Do you know if they done any "pings" on it to see if anything came up? I think the Girlfriend could stand to be scrutinized a bit further. IMO

yes they had to get a court order that day and it would not ping at all, probably under water already

rccook555
11-12-2009, 04:43 PM
i believe that the business owners or the employees just throw the wanted posters away as they clean the doors and windows, but we have hung so many then to go back and they are gone makes me angry. i mean this is not a yard sale sign, this hunt will not end until we have his killer(s) behind bars.

I am so sorry for your loss. He seems like he was a wonderful man. My heart aches for you and your family. Stay strong, hang in there and have faith that justice will prevail.

rccook555
11-12-2009, 04:48 PM
yes they had to get a court order that day and it would not ping at all, probably under water already
That's kind of what i was wondering. I am assuming they checked phones records on his cell and home phone to see the last calls received?
I agree with previous posters in saying this has to be a local. Someone after his money would be a good bet. Is there much drug activity in that town? Usually when someone is after money, drugs tend to play a big part of that.
Such i senseless tragedy. I pray you find comfort and and those responsible be held accountable.

gliving
11-12-2009, 04:51 PM
http://www.kaysullivanrealestate.com/listings/res/167313/more_photos.html

Long Branch Saloon

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:51 PM
Does his GF come in the bar all the time to see him or was it out of the norm? I really hate asking you such personal questions :(

don't hesitate asking questions that is how we get answers, right? so ask away... ok the gf worked there. she was coming in for her shift at noon.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 04:55 PM
I am so sorry for your loss. He seems like he was a wonderful man. My heart aches for you and your family. Stay strong, hang in there and have faith that justice will prevail.

i want to thank each and every person on here. i have received so many kind words, i want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart. i didn't even know how to start my question on here to get it started i cannot believe so many people are helping...thank you and God bless each and every one of you abundantly!!!

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 05:05 PM
That's kind of what i was wondering. I am assuming they checked phones records on his cell and home phone to see the last calls received?
I agree with previous posters in saying this has to be a local. Someone after his money would be a good bet. Is there much drug activity in that town? Usually when someone is after money, drugs tend to play a big part of that.
Such i senseless tragedy. I pray you find comfort and and those responsible be held accountable.

no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is possible.

ChasingMoxie
11-12-2009, 05:21 PM
My heart goes out to you and your family. :(

The guy that originally found him, the one that was there when the girlfriend arrived for her shift, how good of a friend was he? Was he a big guy? Hopefully he's been questioned heavily. Was it normal for him (as a regular) to arrive that early to the bar, or did he usually come at a different time?

Did the bar have video poker? Were there any heavy gamblers, maybe someone who is in trouble with money?

Usually in a small town tavern, people have routines. Everyone has their own routine. I would be interested in hearing or finding out about anyone who had broken their routine just prior to or just after this. Did anyone start changing the time they arrived or left? Anyone staying later than normal? Someone thinking about doing this may inadvertently leave clues like this as they mull the idea over in their mind.

mysticrose
11-12-2009, 05:22 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is possible.

I agree I think if this was just some random person wanting to rob him they would have left his body there at the bar. The person who did this to your father knows him and knows the area...this of course is my opinion only..

alwaysonmymind
11-12-2009, 05:24 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is possible.

I am so sorry for your loss. After reading here, Topix and from those that signed his online guest book, it is very obvious he loved and admired by many.

I'm thinking it was someone who knew about the safe. Maybe local, maybe they heard about it from a local. Either direct knowledge or indirect knowledge. jmo I missed some of the details, was he injured at the bar THEN taken out and murdered?

I believe his body put in the water with the hope it would never be found. The murderer/s wanted to buy time to get away or conceal/destroy evidence. Again jmo

Prayers going up for your family.

SuziQ
11-12-2009, 05:32 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is possible. And the perp had to dump his body 20 miles away because, well everyone was looking for your dad by that time. Can't come back into town with a body.

Here is my two cents on the phone pings and why your dad wasn't just left at the bar. Customers were going to show up soon and the perp needed your dad to get into the safe at his house. He couldn't trust your dad to give him the correct combination, and if your dad was dead that would leave the perp screwed if the combination was incorrect. They go to the house then to the strip pit. Phone pings would either back up or dispute that route of travel.

The timeline is so tight it's interesting to note that the perp was probably robbing the safe knowing that by that time people would have seen the blood and alerted LE. Bold of the perp since family and LE could have shown up as he was pulling out of the driveway or while he was still in the house even.

I have a couple of more questions, was the safe comination or keylock?

What did your dad keep in the safe and how much money did he keep there?

Who else had the combination?

Also how much blood was found at the bar?

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 05:53 PM
My heart goes out to you and your family. :(

The guy that originally found him, the one that was there when the girlfriend arrived for her shift, how good of a friend was he? Was he a big guy? Hopefully he's been questioned heavily. Was it normal for him (as a regular) to arrive that early to the bar, or did he usually come at a different time?

Did the bar have video poker? Were there any heavy gamblers, maybe someone who is in trouble with money?

Usually in a small town tavern, people have routines. Everyone has their own routine. I would be interested in hearing or finding out about anyone who had broken their routine just prior to or just after this. Did anyone start changing the time they arrived or left? Anyone staying later than normal? Someone thinking about doing this may inadvertently leave clues like this as they mull the idea over in their mind.
yes the first customer was a regular and always came a little early

wfgodot
11-12-2009, 05:56 PM
yes they had to get a court order that day and it would not ping at all, probably under water already

How thoroughly did LE check out the strip pit? If the cell phone wasn't found and may be in the water, something else of evidentiary value might be in the water too. I know strip pits can be very deep and diving conditions very, very murky.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 05:59 PM
[QUOTE=SuziQ;4424220]Here is my two cents on the phone pings and why your dad wasn't just left at the bar. Customers were going to show up soon and the perp needed your dad to get into the safe at his house. He couldn't trust your dad to give him the correct combination, and if your dad was dead that would leave the perp screwed if the combination was incorrect. They go to the house then to the strip pit. Phone pings would either back up or dispute that route of travel.

The timeline is so tight it's interesting to note that the perp was probably robbing the safe knowing that by that time people would have seen the blood and alerted LE. Bold of the perp since family and LE could have shown up as he was pulling out of the driveway or while he was still in the house even.

I have a couple of more questions, was the safe comination or keylock?

What did your dad keep in the safe and how much money did he keep there?

Who else had the combination?

Also how much blood was found at the bar?[/QUOTE

ok i will answer these in order. it has both, no idea i never even thought of it being an issue until now, not sure, i was never allowed to go in, but the paper just said a lot.

SuziQ
11-12-2009, 06:00 PM
I thought I added to my previous post but it's not there, that the perp probably went 20 miles away to the strip pit because he couldn't very well do anything near or in town with everyone looking for your dad.

Also, IIRC, the owner of the land the strip pit is on indicated he saw nothing? Even though people have to drive past his house? And this would have been during daylight. Did the description of the red truck come from the property owner?

Kimster
11-12-2009, 07:28 PM
{{{Missingmydad}}} I'm sorry I missed you today!

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 08:18 PM
I thought I added to my previous post but it's not there, that the perp probably went 20 miles away to the strip pit because he couldn't very well do anything near or in town with everyone looking for your dad.

Also, IIRC, the owner of the land the strip pit is on indicated he saw nothing? Even though people have to drive past his house? And this would have been during daylight. Did the description of the red truck come from the property owner?

there were a couple of people that indicated they saw a red truck in front of the bar around the time he was abducted. they just happened to drive by. the road the bar is on is a through street. it takes you from highway 59 south to the old wister highway and it is pretty well traveled.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 08:20 PM
{{{Missingmydad}}} I'm sorry I missed you today!

hi there i am back on here, i had no idea anyone would even find my thread let alone this fast and to take an interest in it, i was just giving it time on here for people to find it. thank you so much

nursebeeme
11-12-2009, 08:26 PM
missingmydad,
I can feel how much you miss your Dad! I cannot imagine what you have been going thru! You can bet your bottom dollar that websleuthers will keep on this for as long as it takes!

The red truck.... wow. That is good information.

As per the safe. I think that whomever did this obviously knew where your Dad kept his money from his business.

Question: what, if anything, was missing from the safe? Was anyone jealous of him in his business endeavors? Were any of his friends in the position of owing others money that they may have found your Dad to be the "bank"?

My prayers and thoughts are soooo with you missingmydad. Your Dad deserves justice and I for one am willing to stick with you until you get that.

YellowDog
11-12-2009, 08:36 PM
that is the mystery. my dad had so many friends, there were over a thousand people at his funeral, this town is not that big, he knew and was friends with everyone. i am 38 and have never heard anyone talk bad about him, ever. his only business partner was his brother for the last 30 years or longer but dad was semi retired and just had the bar. the girlfriend was not from around here originally but she has been in poteau for a couple of years or so. no idea of any of her exs

What brought his girlfriend to Poteau? Do you know anything at all about her past?

YellowDog
11-12-2009, 08:39 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is
possible.


Maybe he was just badly wounded at the bar and the murder took place somewhere else later that day.

gliving
11-12-2009, 08:40 PM
So, it's someone who knew of your father's business, his home and his hours of work. Plus a place to hide him.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 09:57 PM
missingmydad,
I can feel how much you miss your Dad! I cannot imagine what you have been going thru! You can bet your bottom dollar that websleuthers will keep on this for as long as it takes!

The red truck.... wow. That is good information.

As per the safe. I think that whomever did this obviously knew where your Dad kept his money from his business.

Question: what, if anything, was missing from the safe? Was anyone jealous of him in his business endeavors? Were any of his friends in the position of owing others money that they may have found your Dad to be the "bank"?

My prayers and thoughts are soooo with you missingmydad. Your Dad deserves justice and I for one am willing to stick with you until you get that.
thank you so much! ok the articles relating to the red truck are in the poteau daily news & sun, the heavener ledger, the daily oklahoman, and channel 40/29 hometown news, channel 5 those are both out of ft smith arkansas, we are only about 30 minutes from the state line. we found out that had they taken him over the state line to dump him the fbi would have been called in asap. by the way earlier someone asked if it is normal for the us marshal to be called in on a murder case, has anyone ever heard of that before? and in answer to last question, dad loaned money to all kinds of people, he was an atm for many, but he was happy to help everyone and always taught me to never loan more than you are willing to give, just in case they don't pay you back. he was a great dad, THE BEST.

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 10:00 PM
So, it's someone who knew of your father's business, his home and his hours of work. Plus a place to hide him.

and they knew his routine and when to catch him alone, i never thought his hours were that predictable, but he did go get the bar ready to open every day. but the time he showed up varied

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Maybe he was just badly wounded at the bar and the murder took place somewhere else later that day.

i have ran that scenario through my mind about 800 times or more as well.i wonder if just an injury occured at the bar and they rushed him away from there as to not get caught, then killed him later. i just wonder about the safe and how they got into it if he were dead. they would not have killed him until they knew they could get in it. but who in the world would load up someone bleeding and haul them away. what if they would have been pulled over? how would you explain that? this just still makes no sense to me, he was such a great person. this sounds like they hated him since it was so brutal. we honestly have no idea. i think about it all day every day i do not sleep and i have not returned to work yet, i just do this all the time. i do not know anything about the gf i think she had said her family was from here at some point, she has lived all over. many states. dad had dated her about a year or so when he was killed

Salem
11-12-2009, 10:58 PM
I haven't read all the threads yet - but Poteau is about 50 miles from Latimer County where the family went missing: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Poteau,+OK&daddr=Latimer+County,+OK&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=34.835035,-95.31025&sspn=0.54443,0.806122&g=Latimer+County,+OK&ie=UTF8&ll=34.944488,-94.972687&spn=1.0874,1.612244&t=h&z=9

I just thought of that because of the money missing and then the talk about other unsolved murders.

Anyway - back to catching up.

Salem

Salem
11-12-2009, 11:01 PM
I really think the girlfriend - as the one to find the scene and possibily the last one to see Joe, should be thoroughly investigated.

Salem

missingmydad
11-12-2009, 11:12 PM
I really think the girlfriend - as the one to find the scene and possibily the last one to see Joe, should be thoroughly investigated.

Salem

actually it only takes maybe 30 minutes to get to red oak from here. i have hardly heard anything else on that missing family and i live right here. you would think it would be more publisized. and the gf was supposed to start her work shift that day. she worked there and she was to open at noon and showed up about 10 or so til. everyone that was around, plus 100 's more have been talked to by the le. they just formed a new task force though, but i cannot really figure out why the us marshal is involved i am very pleased but i just did not know they investigated murders. i am so thrilled to see that people have not given up on finding the killer(s) i would love for this to be solved

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 12:14 AM
i have ran that scenario through my mind about 800 times or more as well.i wonder if just an injury occured at the bar and they rushed him away from there as to not get caught, then killed him later. i just wonder about the safe and how they got into it if he were dead. they would not have killed him until they knew they could get in it. but who in the world would load up someone bleeding and haul them away. what if they would have been pulled over? how would you explain that? this just still makes no sense to me, he was such a great person. this sounds like they hated him since it was so brutal. we honestly have no idea. i think about it all day every day i do not sleep and i have not returned to work yet, i just do this all the time. i do not know anything about the gf i think she had said her family was from here at some point, she has lived all over. many states. dad had dated her about a year or so when he was killed

I'm telling ya, I get the feeling this perp is a very bold person or one that acted on a moment of passion, was desperate, and just got lucky. Think about all the ways and places they could have accosted your dad, at his home for example. Instead they do this in broad daylight at his public business right before people would show up? And then take him to his house where people might go looking for him, and then drive him 20 miles out to the strip pit probably still alive? The way it went down was not ideal and could have gone wrong for the perp in so many ways. Makes me think that this wasn't preplanned.

I wonder if someone needed a large amount of money, or a certain item out of the safe and your dad told that person no, argument happens and things go downhill from there.

Salem
11-13-2009, 12:16 AM
Hugs to you missingmydad, I am very sorry for your loss.

It seems I was about the fourth sleuth to mention the missing family. I think we are all connecting that dot because there was money involved there also.

As for the girlfriend - is she still in town? Have you talked with her? Did she attend the services for your dad? If so, did you talk to or see her that day? I'm wondering what her "persona" was like? I'm sure you were too upset at the time to pay any attention - so don't worry about answering that.

I agree with you, I think your dad was attacked at the bar and who ever attacked him called someone at your dad's house to open the safe. So... it seems to me that a minimum of 2 people were involved here. If they would have taken your dad back to his house, LE would have found traces of blood and/or other evidence that your wounded dad had been there.

So the question is - who called your dad's house and what phones were used? Did the perps have their own phones? Probably. BUT if not, and one of them used your dad's phone, it would show up on his records. Has LE obtained all records for the cell and house phones? Incoming and outgoing calls? You should check with them. They probably have this information, but you should have them confirm that with you.

I believe LE is smart and that they know what they are doing - however, I also believe that with many individuals involved, it is important that you have info verified and confirmed. One officer might think another is doing something and that other thinks someone else is doing it and it doesn't get done. Or they may have thought to do something, but something else came up, they were distracted and it didn't get done. Asking for confirmation never hurts. They may wish you wouldn't ask so many questions, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Persistence and patience are virtures, in my opinion.

I praying that answers are found and justice is served.

Salem

Salem
11-13-2009, 12:18 AM
SuziQ - why to you think Joe was taken to his house from the bar? Was there evidence of that somewhere?

TIA,

Salem

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 12:19 AM
Great theory about two perps. Very interesting and very possible.

Salem
11-13-2009, 12:22 AM
Great theory about two perps. Very interesting and very possible.

It just seems if Joe was taken back to his house and he was wounded, as evidenced by the blood at the bar, some evidence of that would have been found at the house, on the sidewalk, on the floor, on a counter?

Salem

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 12:22 AM
SuziQ - why to you think Joe was taken to his house from the bar? Was there evidence of that somewhere?

TIA,

Salem

Because I don't think the one perp, would have killed him before getting that safe open and getting out of the safe whatever it was they wanted. If they killed him before and the safe didn't open, they would have been screwed.

The two perps though, one at the bar and one waiting at the house is an interesting thought. So who had the key to the safe though?

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 12:23 AM
IMO, if they didn't need him to be at the safe to open it, they probably would have just left him at the bar and killed him there.

Salem
11-13-2009, 12:26 AM
Because I don't think the one perp, would have killed him before getting that safe open and getting out of the safe whatever it was they wanted. If they killed him before and the safe didn't open, they would have been screwed.

The two perps though, one at the bar and one waiting at the house is an interesting thought. So who had the key to the safe though?

Good point about the key. I forgot it was both key and combination. Maybe both perps met him at the bar - one took the key - the other held onto Joe.

I would think if this is what happened - there would be some cell shedding near the safe? If they beat Joe up to get the key and make him talk, which I am sure they did - whoever used that key to open the safe likely had Joe's skin cells on his hands and clothes - which could possibly have shed off near that safe. I guess that doesn't help though because you would expect to find Joe's skin cells there anyway. But if the perp injured his hands - maybe some of his skin shed off.

Was the safe gone over with a fine tooth comb for fingerprints and skin cells? Do we know?

Salem

Salem
11-13-2009, 12:28 AM
IMO, if they didn't need him to be at the safe to open it, they probably would have just left him at the bar and killed him there.

Do you think maybe they held him in the truck until the safe was opened, never taking him back into the house?

Do we know exactly what LE found when they discovered the safe had been broken into?

Salem

4Kat
11-13-2009, 12:51 AM
Dear missingmydad,
I am so sorry for your loss, I just cannot imagine the pain and hope I never have to feel it. I looked at the pictures of your dad's bar and it broke my heart, what a great looking place to hang out.
I have a question. Was your dad a fisherman and if so, did he fish at the strip mine where he was found?

missingmydad
11-13-2009, 12:52 AM
ok i am gonna try to catch up a little. i do not think they ever brought him back to the house i came back here and never seen anything i thought looked out of place. i feel like they used their own cell phones and talked on the way to strip pit while the other perp was here at house getting into safe and the other perp or 2 had dad on the way to pocola and whether or not he was dead i have no idea but i feel like no, if he was dead they had no way to be sure they could get into the safe. they needed him alive, just in case. as far as the day of the funeral i remember it but barely and i was told the gf was there with a guy friend and did not cry but you know how rumors go, we have heard a million. i have talked with her several times since then but not only once or twice since aug.

missingmydad
11-13-2009, 12:54 AM
he used to fish when he was younger but no, he did not ever fish in recent years. his passion was horseback riding and he would go to colorado and new mexico and ride horses and camp. i am so thankful that he was able to do what he loved before this tragedy.

missingmydad
11-13-2009, 12:57 AM
maybe there were even 3 perps, one at house and 2 to get him, my dad was very strong and would not have went without a fight and my guess would be they would have to have hurt him bad to have gotten control of him.

4Kat
11-13-2009, 01:11 AM
he used to fish when he was younger but no, he did not ever fish in recent years. his passion was horseback riding and he would go to colorado and new mexico and ride horses and camp. i am so thankful that he was able to do what he loved before this tragedy.

What a wonderful life he led! From what we have heard from you and all the other posts from different places, your dad was definitely the cream of the crop!

My thoughts on the POS that did this to your dad. It may be possible they are not local in Poteau, but somewhere near the area where he was found. They fish that area frequently and knew it would be the best place. How they connected to your father may be that they would come to the bar, see what a successful business he had and started making plans.

My prayers are with you and your family. I wish I had known him.

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 01:38 AM
Do you think maybe they held him in the truck until the safe was opened, never taking him back into the house?

Do we know exactly what LE found when they discovered the safe had been broken into?

Salem

IDK. What was the layout of the home outside? Are their neighbors close by? Yes, more information on the safe would be great.

From following the Christian/Newsom trial, I learned that victims that are either outnumbered or outgunned will have no defensive wounds and their surroundings won't be disturbed.

missingmydad
11-13-2009, 01:55 AM
well he was awesome and i dont know how i will continue to make it without him he was my rock. i am daddys girl through and through. ok as far as safe goes i dont really know.i have never been with him when it was opened so i am not sure, but the house was in perfect order and if there was a lot of blood at bar then they did not take him into the house or they would have tracked blood. there are neighbors but no real close this is in the country so the closest person is about 1/2 a city block and not lined up. dads house sits closer to the road than next door. this happened about 11 am or so, broad daylight, they are either very brave or very stupid.

missingmydad
11-13-2009, 02:06 AM
the bar was a pretty busy place there is so many people i would not know. i used to go there but i have not been out to any bar in years. so the crowd there has changed i am sure. the strip pit i commented on in an earlier post, u can google map it and see it from air view and it would be very hard to find if u didnt know about it but they could have known about it as a kid, who knows, it is an old strip pit. the jody rilee wilson death, she was found dead on may 8th and had been dead 2-3 days and my dad killed may 14, found 17th, i have even wondered if there could be a coonection with all of these, and the family missing out of the vehicle, crazy. could there be a serial killer and he just doesnt have a routine yet? they have ruled hers a suspicious death even though her car was found couple of hours away, how did she get back here dead if she was not killed? she was found just about 10-15 minutes from the bar. it is all just really close ya know. i even wondered if dad riding horses or something ever ran across something he should not have seen or overheard something that maybe he should not have heard at the bar and it was to keep him from talking but then that would mess up the theory of the house safe. i wish we had a sattelite and we could rewind it to that day and see what happened outside that bar and who took him away. wouldnt that be nice?

gliving
11-13-2009, 08:13 AM
Good morning.

How far is it from Joe's house to his bar? And who would know the contents of the safe and how much money was taken? Was it just an estimate or maybe he kept records?

Did he buy and sell horses? I looking for a reason he might have gone back to his house before he opened the bar. Did he take the Napa part home and then go to the bar?

Roselvr
11-13-2009, 09:08 AM
Just waking up.. some how didn't see a page of posts..
Will come back later to reread once I'm up more.

i am daddys girl through and through

How often did you see your dad?

ok as far as safe goes i dont really know.i have never been with him when it was opened so i am not sure, but the house was in perfect order

Do you know where his safe is kept? Do you know what type of safe it is?

and if there was a lot of blood at bar then they did not take him into the house or they would have tracked blood.

You said if there was a lot of blood at the bar do you not know?

there are neighbors but no real close this is in the country so the closest person is about 1/2 a city block and not lined up. dads house sits closer to the road than next door. this happened about 11 am or so, broad daylight, they are either very brave or very stupid.

It would be nice to know where his house is in relation to everything else.
I sent you an email the other day, did you get it?

thank you so much! ok the articles relating to the red truck are in the poteau daily news & sun, the heavener ledger, the daily oklahoman, and channel 40/29 hometown news, channel 5 those are both out of ft smith arkansas,

An actual link would be nice.
Find the article and copy the URL, then paste it in here
Some of those sites, once the article gets older you can't access it. Ran into dead ends with Jody.

his cell phone was never recovered.

Depending on who his cell coverage is with, you would be able to log in online to get a print out of phone calls. Did you ever request one?
If not, you want to do that asap to view his incoming and outgoing calls.
If he viewed his cell bill online, his user account may be stored in his computer. It's also possible to recover the history, etc from his computer.

If you are not sure, you can call the cell company to request it; or speak to the new task force to have them get it.

as far as the day of the funeral i remember it but barely and i was told the gf was there with a guy friend and did not cry but you know how rumors go, we have heard a million. i have talked with her several times since then but not only once or twice since aug.

If the GF was involved, my opinion is that she wouldn't have shown up at the bar that day. He looked like a big man, how would she kill him then move his body?

How well did you know the GF?
How big is she? Age?
At my dad's funeral, just about everyone that came, came over to me to offer me condolences. I would think the GF would be sitting by family?

Was the safe dusted?

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-13-2009, 10:44 AM
Ok, so is there anyone you know of in your personal life that has had a tragedy lately? maybe tragedy is to strong a word because this is a tragedy :(

Someone who was sick and needed money for health reasons?
Someone who gambled a lot?
Someone who has recently had their home renovated?
Someone who has reported their car, or anything you could use in violence as stolen?
With as much blood as you said the papers reported, do you know if there were any signs he faught back? Maybe the perp had scratches, bruises, walked weird from hurt ribs back or neck? anything suspicious like that?
Anyone not around for an extended amount of time or anyone close to you who is acting strange, even if there is no way you would ever consider it being them?

YellowDog
11-13-2009, 11:12 AM
i have ran that scenario through my mind about 800 times or more as well.i wonder if just an injury occured at the bar and they rushed him away from there as to not get caught, then killed him later. i just wonder about the safe and how they got into it if he were dead. they would not have killed him until they knew they could get in it. but who in the world would load up someone bleeding and haul them away. what if they would have been pulled over? how would you explain that? this just still makes no sense to me, he was such a great person. this sounds like they hated him since it was so brutal. we honestly have no idea. i think about it all day every day i do not sleep and i have not returned to work yet, i just do this all the time. i do not know anything about the gf i think she had said her family was from here at some point, she has lived all over. many states. dad had dated her about a year or so when he was killed

What if the blood in the bar was not your Dad's, but the blood of the attacker? Perhaps your Dad slugged him first and then the attacker pulled a gun and forced your Dad to take him to the house where he was ordered to open the safe. This would mean, of course, that your Dad was killed later.....maybe even at the strip pit.

gliving
11-13-2009, 11:43 AM
More

Did they search the pit for a gun?

And along the same lines as Angels_Not_Forgotten, but another way; has someone recently purchased something that made you wonder how they could afford it? TV, ATV, hunting gear, new truck, nice vacation?

Did your dad have a gun collection? What did he do for fun besides his horses?

Keep hope!

Vegas Bride
11-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Had your father had any type of work done on his house in the last year or so where workers would have been able to find there was a safe?
Was he known to ever loan people money where they knew he got the money out of his safe?
Was there any type of change in his girlfriend after his murder where it seemed she was spending money she didn't have before, expensive clothes, new car, trip? Did she have a job before the murder and if so, is she still working there?

It's possible that someone knew about the money in his safe and mentioned it to someone else.

I'm very sorry for your loss!

VB

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 12:05 PM
How thoroughly did LE check out the strip pit? If the cell phone wasn't found and may be in the water, something else of evidentiary value might be in the water too. I know strip pits can be very deep and diving conditions very, very murky.

Like gliving (above), I'm very interested in this pit and how well it was searched. Here in NE OK, strip pits and mines have long been used for disposal of not only bodies but instruments of the crime as well. Pits can be very deep and, as I said above, diving conditions are usually less than ideal.

gliving
11-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Did Joe sell/buy items on Craigslist or a Big Nickle paper? Did he surf the internet? Even though he had a girlfriend, did he visit dating sites like match.com?

believe09
11-13-2009, 12:43 PM
I am confused about the initial media-Joe was reported missing on WED by the gf but seen at a store on Thursday?

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-13-2009, 12:49 PM
just to clarify: nothing happened on may 13th, may 14th he was seen at two area stores at around 10 am before noon same day they discovered the crime scene. may 15th safe broken into discovered, may 17th his body was found around 4pm

This is what I see, and I understand what you're saying. So missingmydad, the 13th was normal, the 14 he was at the store, seen by 2 people disappeared the same day, and the 15th was when the safe was discovered broken into, correct?

Debbie Miller
11-13-2009, 01:34 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.yes lots of drugs here like anywhere i guess, i hear of it but i cant see that being related to his death , but i never thought he would have been murdered either. so anything is possible.

I would have to say this is definately someone close to your father, someone who knew his routine. Was there any sign of the killer(s) trying to clean up the crime scene?

I am going to bet this was premeditated.

Debbie Miller
11-13-2009, 02:01 PM
This is just my thoughts- I would look to the gf for her hand in this, who better to know your dad's movements than her. You can google her name and see if any links pop up, unless it is a common name. Check myspace and facebook to see if she has accounts, check out what she is saying or not.

She could be the mastermind behind this.

Wudge
11-13-2009, 02:44 PM
well he was awesome and i dont know how i will continue to make it without him he was my rock. i am daddys girl through and through. ok as far as safe goes i dont really know.i have never been with him when it was opened so i am not sure, but the house was in perfect order and if there was a lot of blood at bar then they did not take him into the house or they would have tracked blood. there are neighbors but no real close this is in the country so the closest person is about 1/2 a city block and not lined up. dads house sits closer to the road than next door. this happened about 11 am or so, broad daylight, they are either very brave or very stupid.

First, let me say that I am so sorry to read here -- I also read the posts on Topix -- of your tremendous loss.

I will recommend that you create a known timeline and a known fact sheet and post both here in this thread. The judgment of people is usually no better than their facts, and as I read through the posts and links (google search), I found it a bit difficult to square off established facts.

For example

Did the coroner establish the time of your Father's death?

What caliber bullet was used to murder your Father?

How many times was he shot and exactly where?

Did LE recover footprints or tire tracks from the strip mine where your Father's body was found? Had it rained in the area between the 14th and the 17th?

Did it appear that his body was dragged to where it was found? Or did it appear that his body was dumped there? Or did it appear that he might have suffered a final shot there -- recognizing that substantial blood is said to have been found in the bar.

Did your Father's body show any evidence of defensive wounds?

Was he found tied in any way?

Recognizing that he wore a hat in an online picture? Did LE find a hat where his body was found?

How much money was taken? I read but that 'thousands' were taken. Have they established how many 'thousands' were taken?

Was your Father's vehicle found at the bar or at his home or elsewhere?

Did LE check his vehicle for fingerprints?

Does LE have reason to suspect that more than one person was involved in your father's murder.

Is there any reason to think (common evidence basis) that your Father's murder is related to other unsolved murders in the area?

What more is known about the red truck; that is, age, make, dirty, van, pick-up, etc.?

This troubles me

It would seem that LE found substantial blood in the bar on the 14th, yet they did not determine that your Father's safe was opened (home) until the 15th. What transpired on the 14th and why the delay? When were you or other family members notified?

A few thoughts

From the little I know, this appears likely to be a cold blooded murder. Generally, murder is something that criminals advance to doing. In other words, I suspect that the person or persons that murdered your Father likely committed other crimes prior to this act. As such, there's a decent chance they have a criminal record.

Next, robbery is usually based on need, particularly armed robbery -- though it's not a given, from what I know, that your Father did not surprise someone burglarizing his home. People who face such critical monetary needs that they feel a need to kill might well be unemployed (creates need).

As has often been noted, the fact that the strip mine would only be known to locals logically appears to be a very reasonable limiting factor, which would move the murderer being but a passer by way down on the list of probabilities.

Finally, I suspect LE is not giving you much in the way of information. If so, make sure you and/or other family members keep requesting progress reports, and do ask for a bit more information with each call. It doesn't hurt to ask and as time passes, it's likely that ever fewer LE resources will be dedicated to your Father's case unless it is solved. And should LE's resources ramp down, you will want to have as many case facts as possible to work with.

God bless your Father, you and your family.

gliving
11-13-2009, 03:38 PM
Portions snipped from http://www.helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13949&page=2 as the original report is not longer available.

Neff, 61, owned the Long Branch Saloon, a popular bar tucked in the woods off State Highway 59 between Poteau and Heavener. The bar offered patrons a refuge for drinking, dancing and socializing, and Neff an excuse to hang out with long-time friends.

Neff decorated the bar after his favorite Old West saloon, even down to the swinging wooden doors he handcrafted for the entrance. On Sundays, he fed his patrons for free with big pots of chili and soup.

"I liked Joe,” said Bruce Curnutt, Le Flore County sheriff. "I never had a problem with Joe. He ran a nice, clean operation. No drugs, no fights ... just a clean operation.”


Fishermen found Neff’s body May 17 about 12 miles north near Pocola, an old mining town of 4,000 people on the Arkansas border. He died from a gunshot wound to the head, said Cherokee Ballard, state medical examiner spokeswoman.

"I think there were at least two men,” Curnutt said. "Joe was a strong, stout guy. It would’ve taken two men to carry him out of that bar and two to dump his body. I also think whoever did this either lives in the Pocola area or has lived there in the past. That’s a remote area where he was found, and they had been there before.”

Curnutt watched as $740 in cash was removed from Neff’s shirt pocket.

"This wasn’t a robbery,” Curnutt said. "This was personal.”

My question: Did Joe usually keep large sums of money in his pocket or is this unusual for him? Was he going to buy something or had he just sold something?

alwaysonmymind
11-13-2009, 03:44 PM
Have the salesmen/suppliers/delivery people been checked out? Was there a new person on the route for the bar?

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-13-2009, 03:57 PM
why not take the 740? I mean, whoever they were, were so obsessed with money, they go to his home and take that. But not what's in his pocket? Was the bar money cleared out too? meaning, was the money still in the register and any safe's at the bar?

ChasingMoxie
11-13-2009, 04:03 PM
Also might be important to note that if the gf was involved at all, it becomes less necessary to have Joe in order to open the safe. She may have known the combo, had a key, etc.

Do you know anyone who goes to the bar regularly? I would get to talking with the regulars. People who sit at the bar every single day. Every bar has them, they are the ones who will have some stories that may not be known even by the family or less frequent visitors to the bar.

gliving
11-13-2009, 04:15 PM
I put a request for Joe in the astrology forum.

alwaysonmymind
11-13-2009, 04:19 PM
Did Joe cash payroll checks at the bar?

dnrslucky1
11-13-2009, 04:38 PM
This troubles me

It would seem that LE found substantial blood in the bar on the 14th, yet they did not determine that your Father's safe was opened (home) until the 15th. What transpired on the 14th and why the delay? When were you or other family members notified?

I agree, this makes no sense. I would think the first place searched would be his home.

alwaysonmymind
11-13-2009, 05:05 PM
This troubles me

It would seem that LE found substantial blood in the bar on the 14th, yet they did not determine that your Father's safe was opened (home) until the 15th. What transpired on the 14th and why the delay? When were you or other family members notified?

I agree, this makes no sense. I would think the first place searched would be his home.

VERY TROUBLING...

1. Blood in the bar.
2. Joe is missing.
3. The obvious next step would be to go over his entire bar/vehicle/home/property. Why was this not noticed??????????????? :/

jmo

Roselvr
11-13-2009, 05:27 PM
the articles relating to the red truck are in the poteau daily news & sun, the heavener ledger, the daily oklahoman, and channel 40/29 hometown news, channel 5 those are both out of ft smith arkansas, we are only about 30 minutes from the state line.

Just want to clarify my comment from this morning if it reads crummy.

With the articles, I see there are a lot.
I figured it would be better if you pasted the links to the articles you felt had the best information since you've probably read them all.

I'm reading articles right now and have been sifting through a lot to see which are the better ones.

Roselvr
11-13-2009, 05:29 PM
This troubles me

It would seem that LE found substantial blood in the bar on the 14th, yet they did not determine that your Father's safe was opened (home) until the 15th. What transpired on the 14th and why the delay? When were you or other family members notified?

I agree, this makes no sense. I would think the first place searched would be his home.

I will be posting article links once I'm done with dinner.
It appears a lot of people knew about it right after it happened as people were camped outside from what I'm reading.

Roselvr
11-13-2009, 05:40 PM
What I could find

Joe drove newer Chevy SUV - looks black & is at bar.

Friends Seek Missing, 'Possibly Injured' Man (http://www.4029tv.com/news/19467846/detail.html) video at link
May 14, 2009 -
last seen Thursday morning.
LeFlore County deputies along with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation taped off the crime scene and processed several pieces of evidence, including Neff's black Chevy SUV that was parked at the scene.

Curnutt would not comment on what evidence was found inside the saloon.

"There are definitely signs of a struggle and an injury inside," Curnutt said. "We do believe that the bar owner Joe Neff may be injured, and he is missing."
Curnutt said the saloon was equipped with security cameras, but authorities have yet to review any footage.

Deputies have also been conducting searches near the bar, including land near Long Lake and the Poteau River.


Grim New Clues Found In Search For Missing Bar Owner (http://www.4029tv.com/news/19475932/detail.html)
Police Find Safe Ransacked At Joe Neff's Home

POSTED: 5:44 pm CDT May 15, 2009
UPDATED: 6:52 pm CDT May 15, 2009
Joe Neff's girlfriend said that when she went to the Long Branch Saloon in Poteau at noon on Thursday, she found what police described as a violent crime scene.

On Friday, police searched Neff's home and found that his personal safe had been broken into. There were also thousands of dollars missing from the safe.

Police said they're looking for an older-model red import pickup truck that may have been in the area when Neff disappeared.

Friends and Family Search for Missing Man (http://www.kfsm.com/news/kfsm-news-poteau-missing-man,0,3388518.story) - May 15, 2009
~snip~
Friends and family are hoping against odds for good news about their friend, Joe Neff.

They have camped out at the bar Neff owned to conduct their own search for their loved one.
They've been there since word of his disappearance broke Thursday around noon.

Friends Scour Area For Missing Bar Owner (http://www.4029tv.com/news/19482132/detail.html) - Joe Neff Missing Since Incident At Long Branch Saloon

POSTED: 5:58 pm CDT May 16, 2009
UPDATED: 6:06 pm CDT May 16, 2009

This story seems to have the date wrong
Friends and family of a missing Le Flore County bar owner continued to searching land near his saloon on Saturday.

Joe Neff hasn't been seen since Wednesday when his girlfriend came to the Long Branch Saloon near Poteau and found signs of a violent crime. Police found that thousands of dollars in cash had been taken from a safe in his home.
Neff's nephews scoured miles of land near Lake Wister on four-wheelers, looking for possible clues.

"It's just a point of interest," said Neff's nephew, Ron Sloan.

Video at link too Body Found: Family Members Say It's Joe Neff (http://www.4029tv.com/news/19488490/detail.html) - POSTED: 10:16 pm CDT May 17, 2009
UPDATED: 4:25 pm CDT May 18, 2009
Leflore County deputies were called to some land in Pocola Sunday when people visiting the land owners found a body in water.

Officials with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation said they can tell the body had been in the water for a few days.
Officials aren't releasing details about what may have happened or what condition the body was in.

*Note video says off of Mckenzie rd (if I caught name right)

Poteau bar owner's slaying haunts family (http://newsok.com/poteau-bar-owners-slaying-haunts-family/article/3377641)
Last month’s killing in Poteau remains unsolved

Published: June 14, 2009
~Snip`
Soon, hundreds of Neff’s friends and relatives were scouring the nearby woods. The search lasted three days in Poteau, the Le Flore County seat wedged against the picturesque Poteau Mountain and Poteau River.

Fishermen found Neff’s body May 17 about 12 miles north near Pocola, an old mining town of 4,000 people on the Arkansas border. He died from a gunshot wound to the head, said Cherokee Ballard, state medical examiner spokeswoman.
"I think there were at least two men,” Curnutt said. "Joe was a strong, stout guy. It would’ve taken two men to carry him out of that bar and two to dump his body. I also think whoever did this either lives in the Pocola area or has lived there in the past. That’s a remote area where he was found, and they had been there before.”

Curnutt watched as $740 in cash was removed from Neff’s shirt pocket.

"This wasn’t a robbery,” Curnutt said. "This was personal.”

dnrslucky1
11-13-2009, 06:18 PM
Police found that thousands of dollars in cash had been taken from a safe in his home.

How do they know how much cash was in the safe. He possibly kept some available cash but why would they say that much. Did he not use a bank for savings.

If I had a safe, I would keep important papers, and some emergency cash.

If he was known to loan money, he probably had IOU,s maybe someone owed him a lot of money.

songline
11-13-2009, 06:19 PM
i went in and tried to edit the headline and i cannot figure out how to do it, any suggestions?
Yes...PM one of the MODs, (Privet Message) Click on their name a menu will show up. JBean is one of the Mods.


I have just been reading, I am so sorry of your loss, and God bless you, I hope the SOB is brought to justice.

songline
11-13-2009, 06:27 PM
I read the entire thread and thought to bring the article here.


Friends Seek Missing, 'Possibly Injured' Man

POSTED: 11:02 pm CDT May 14, 2009
Joe Neff, 5-14-09 Poteau, Okla. [BODY FOUND] - Help Find The Missing



Body Found: Family Members Say It's Joe Neff
POSTED: 10:16 pm CDT May 17, 2009

http://www.4029tv.com/news/19488490/detail.html

Vegas Bride
11-13-2009, 10:36 PM
Please understand that I am only bringing this up because in investigations everything has to be looked at, I am in no way saying this is fact!
Is there anybody in your fathers family who has been having financial problems and who could benefit financially from his passing?

Also I'm wondering if it's possible that somebody broke into the safe after something had already happened to your father, someone who knew he was missing and saw it as a chance to clean out the safe.

VB

SuziQ
11-13-2009, 10:53 PM
Like someone unconnected to the murder? We might be looking at two different crimes.

Vegas Bride
11-14-2009, 12:09 AM
Like someone unconnected to the murder? We might be looking at two different crimes.

Yes, since the safe being broken into was not found until a day later it could be possible someone else did that. Also, if he was forced to open the safe, then it wouldn't have had to be broken into, just opened.



VB

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 12:44 AM
hi everyone, thank you for all the kind words. i will answer questions now
we do not have an exact time of death
we do not know what caliber bullet, only the le
i have heard only one shot to the head, exact entry i do not know
very heavy rains, no tracks that i am aware of
the strip pit looks like a pond so you can drive up pretty close
i do not know about any defensive wounds we are unable to get that info yet
his straw cowbay hat was found in the floor at the bar
i do not have any idea how much money, only what i have read in the papers
his black tahoe was still outside the bar, i drove it home and still have it here
i think they fingerprinted everything, bar house safe everything
le has not been very forthcoming with info but since i am posting it on the web i guess i know why but i just want answers, i need answers so badly
le has not told us how many they think were involved we just assume it has to be more than one because my dad was tough and not small
we are unsure if the unsolved murders around the area are connected
all we know is an older model red import truck
the girl friend is maybe 100 pounds probably less, around 46 yrs old
his bar is about 3 minutes from his house
he owned horses, he did not really buy and sell, he loved to ride them and he used to break horses when he was younger, he always had horses
i talked to my dad almost every day and saw him several times a week
he took care of the bar, he worked on whatever needed to be fixed, he remodeled it, my dad could fix , or build anything. he loved to ride horses and he always rode around in the mountains on sundays in his jeep after he fed the bar people.
my dad was a cowbay he did not own a computer, he would think that was funny
his safe was a big stand up safe like from atwoods or something.
there are lots of regulars at the bar and no bouncers that i know of
dad and his girlfriend did not live together, she did "stay over" quite a bit

ok we do not think he came home after he paid his bill and went to part store i think he went straight out to bar so he may have been there by 10:30 or so, the bar opens at noon, 1st customer shows up 11:45 and cant find dad and bar unlocked blood on floor, a few minutes later girlfriend, who works there, shows up for her shift and finds the scene they call 911 and then we had gotten phone call we show up and police tape everywhere. we looked for him for 3 days on horses, 4 wheelers and my husband rented a plane, then the people found him. dad worked with his brother all his life nearly, he kind of semi retired to just work bar.

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 12:48 AM
oh i forgot, dad went missing thursday 14th, on friday we had looked all day and met back at house to update each other where we had searhed. we were all talking and decided that we should check this one room that he always kept locked. the le did check the house on thurs but since that room was never unlocked and the house was in perfect order we assumed that the only crime was at the bar. at this time we still did not know he was dead, we thought maybe he was just hurt somewhere. so fri we busted in door to find safe open. so we called le back out there again

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 01:00 AM
yes there was a lot of blood found at the bar but i never seen it, they would not let us in there and when the osbi finally released it to us, the family did not want us to see it. so i cannot tell you how much or what it was like but the paper said a lot. so i dont think they took him home or we would have found blood there too. he never had much trouble at bar, occasional fights dad would make them leave, if they kept fighting he would ban them but he would always let them come back, he loved people

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 01:01 AM
do the us marshals get into solving murder cases? if yes, how often?

Debbie Miller
11-14-2009, 01:02 AM
There are quite a few cases like this, where the LE is tightlipped with the family, there is no physical evidence that can be linked to a suspect. It could be the LE are waiting for someone to start bragging of what they did. There are some cases where this happens. Unfortunately, not enough.

I hope they kept the clothes that your dad had on when he was found. There could be transfer fibers (evidence) there. If they moved his body, there is that, but not enough to know exactly who did it. There could be carpet fibers from the trunk if that is how they transported him to the pit.

Debbie Miller
11-14-2009, 01:06 AM
do the us marshals get into solving murder cases? if yes, how often?

I googled this earlier today in hopes to provide an answer. All that is really said is about federal fugitives. They help LE on all levels, ex: local (city, county) and state.

Maybe there is some underlying info that has led the local LE to call them in. Connection with other like murders/crimes. I don't see why the LE in charge of your dad's case couldn't be asked this question.

Debbie Miller
11-14-2009, 01:09 AM
oh i forgot, dad went missing thursday 14th, on friday we had looked all day and met back at house to update each other where we had searhed. we were all talking and decided that we should check this one room that he always kept locked. the le did check the house on thurs but since that room was never unlocked and the house was in perfect order we assumed that the only crime was at the bar. at this time we still did not know he was dead, we thought maybe he was just hurt somewhere. so fri we busted in door to find safe open. so we called le back out there again

So basically, the only forced entry was when you (family) busted the door in?

That means someone got in with a key. Did they dust his house for foreign prints?

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 02:03 AM
yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 02:04 AM
yeah we are the ones that busted in the door.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-14-2009, 07:46 AM
so someone close enough stole the money that knew that you would also need a key to get into the door, if it were not busted open. Was your dad's key's found? is that one missing? Had he had the locks changed recently, either at his home or place of business?

Debbie Miller
11-14-2009, 08:44 AM
yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

I understand you not wanting to bother them, but at the same time you want them to know you aren't just going to let this go.

I don't mean to sound like the police are not doing anything, just keep in touch with them once a week.

I would ask them about the dusting for fingerprints, did they find anything questionable? From my knowledge , they should have taken prints from anyone who was associated with your dad's house to do the process of elimination.

Like I mentioned above with the physical evidence, if they found no foreign fingerprints in his house they don't have a lead in that manner.

gliving
11-14-2009, 09:15 AM
so someone close enough stole the money that knew that you would also need a key to get into the door, if it were not busted open. Was your dad's key's found? is that one missing? Had he had the locks changed recently, either at his home or place of business?

This seems to narrow it down to someone who had both the key to the locked door and the safe. Then again we don't know if the burglary and murder are connected, though you would think they are.

I wonder if they went to the house safe first, didn't find what they were looking for and then went to Joe's bar to confront him.

And why would they leave the safe open? Seems like they would close it back up, especially since they re-lock the room upon leaving/ Or was someone trying to make it look like a robbery?

Wudge
11-14-2009, 09:29 AM
hi everyone, thank you for all the kind words. i will answer questions now
we do not have an exact time of death
we do not know what caliber bullet, only the le
i have heard only one shot to the head, exact entry i do not know
very heavy rains, no tracks that i am aware of
the strip pit looks like a pond so you can drive up pretty close
i do not know about any defensive wounds we are unable to get that info yet
his straw cowbay hat was found in the floor at the bar
i do not have any idea how much money, only what i have read in the papers
his black tahoe was still outside the bar, i drove it home and still have it here
i think they fingerprinted everything, bar house safe everything
le has not been very forthcoming with info but since i am posting it on the web i guess i know why but i just want answers, i need answers so badly
le has not told us how many they think were involved we just assume it has to be more than one because my dad was tough and not small
we are unsure if the unsolved murders around the area are connected
all we know is an older model red import truck
the girl friend is maybe 100 pounds probably less, around 46 yrs old
his bar is about 3 minutes from his house
he owned horses, he did not really buy and sell, he loved to ride them and he used to break horses when he was younger, he always had horses
i talked to my dad almost every day and saw him several times a week
he took care of the bar, he worked on whatever needed to be fixed, he remodeled it, my dad could fix , or build anything. he loved to ride horses and he always rode around in the mountains on sundays in his jeep after he fed the bar people.
my dad was a cowbay he did not own a computer, he would think that was funny
his safe was a big stand up safe like from atwoods or something.
there are lots of regulars at the bar and no bouncers that i know of
dad and his girlfriend did not live together, she did "stay over" quite a bit

ok we do not think he came home after he paid his bill and went to part store i think he went straight out to bar so he may have been there by 10:30 or so, the bar opens at noon, 1st customer shows up 11:45 and cant find dad and bar unlocked blood on floor, a few minutes later girlfriend, who works there, shows up for her shift and finds the scene they call 911 and then we had gotten phone call we show up and police tape everywhere. we looked for him for 3 days on horses, 4 wheelers and my husband rented a plane, then the people found him. dad worked with his brother all his life nearly, he kind of semi retired to just work bar.

Thank you for the information.

The fact that LE did not open the door to the room in the house that contained the sign is a bad sign. It goes to a lack of competence. If LE took something that basic for granted, they might well have taken other things for granted that they should not have done. It's good that the OSBI is actively involved in this case.

Additional questions


When LE first went to your Father's home on the 14th, how did they gain access? Was a door unlocked or did they use a key or another measure to gain entry?

Where was the key found that went to the door in the house (room that contained the safe) that the family had to break down?

Where was the key to your Father's vehicle (Tahoe) found?

Where was the key to your Father's home found?

I'm a bit confused regarding the lock or locks on the safe, Was both combination and a key needed to open the safe? And if so, where was the key to the safe found?

How were investigators able to determine how much money was missing from the safe?

What keys were found on your Father's person when his body was recovered?

Did your Father use a wallet or did he simply carry money in a pocket on his person -- my Father never used a wallet, because he felt they were too easy to pickpocket.

Does the Sheriff still believe the murder was personal and not a robbery?

If your Father was killed in the bar with one shot to the head, it does not compute that the person or persons who fired the shot would feel a need to move his dead body from the bar. That makes little sense. Your Father's hat was found on the floor along with substantial blood, which would obviously indicate trouble in the bar. Plus, the person or persons who shot your Father would also end up with blood on their clothes and in their vehicle (possible red pickup truck), and they would need to drive a good distance with his body in the car just to be able to dispose of it in a location that only locals would know about. In bar robberies gone astray, the last thing criminals think about is a need to dispose of a body.

Has LE considered that the robbers might have roughed up your Father in the bar (leaving blood and his hat on the floor), taken him to his home to open the safe, then drove to the strip mine and killed him there.

Did LE recover any bullet casings from any location?

Has anyone in the family talked with the persons or persons who reported seeing the red pickup truck. If so, exactly what time did they see it and how do they know it was a foreign pickup up truck? It would seem to me that if they know it was foreign, they would know the exact make.

Was it raining on the 14th? If so, when did it start to rain?

Prepare a timeline of events

The family should work on putting together a timeline of events. It's an excellent way to organize case facts and, at a minimum, it often helps to provide insight into what the circumstances might well have been.


God bless your Father, you and your family.

Roselvr
11-14-2009, 09:36 AM
yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

What about your sister? Does she know anything?

I hate to ask.. and I apologize; did he have an open or closed casket?
I would think that your family should be able to get a copy of the report.

As for the safe, if the house didn't appear broken into; is it possible your dad was meeting someone to give money to?

gliving
11-14-2009, 09:44 AM
Were they trying to make it look like a suicide at the bar, but something went wrong? Did Joe keep a gun at the bar? Was it found?

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 11:40 AM
ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.

Kimster
11-14-2009, 11:50 AM
{{{missingmydad}}}

Doesn't it seem strange that someone would relock the door that led to the safe, yet the safe was open? Does the door lock on its own somehow?

gliving
11-14-2009, 12:17 PM
(((missingmydad)))

You are so patient with all our questions.

What's the talk around town? Do you have anyone in mind? No need to name them, just wondering if you have your own suspicions?

Wudge
11-14-2009, 01:07 PM
ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.


Thank you for the information.

More questions

I remain curious as to what the Sherriff still thinks the motive was (and also what OSBI thinks); that is, does the Sherriff still think your Father's murder was personal or related to a robbery? The reason this is important is that what the investigators 'think' will greatly influence who they look at.

Is LE certain that thousands of dollars were taken from the safe? If so, how did they determine this to be true?

Was it your Father's habit to leave the keys to his black Tahoe in his truck? The reason I'm asking is because one possibility is that he drove up to the bar and one or more persons moved up to the door and pulled a gun on him right there. Then they took him inside the bar only to learn that there was no safe in the bar, only at his home. So they head off to his home, but before leaving the bar a scuffle broke out that knocked your Father's hat to the ground and he was injured and bleeding. They go to his home, which he unlocks, go to the room with the safe, which he unlocks, and he opens the safe, removes money and gives it to them. Next, they lock-up and return to the robber's vehicle, and your Father is driven to the strip mine where they murder him.

Did LE find evidence (shell casing, brain matter) that strongly indicates the bar was where your Father was shot?

Was it raining at the time that your Father would have driven his black Tahoe up to the bar? Rain gives cover, fewer people would notice anything out of the ordinary if rain was coming down.

Do the persons or persons who noticed the imported red pickup truck also drive a pickup truck (more likely to know what they are talking about)? Exactly what time did they see it, and where do they say they saw it in relation to where your Father's Tahoe was found (such as perhaps right next to it)?

Some advice

Squeaky wheels get the grease, no squeak, no grease. Find out who is in charge of your Father's investigation (person's name), then find out who their boss is (person's name). Have someone in the family talk with their boss. Then have someone in the family meet personally with one or more reporters and give them as much as is known about the case and the state of the investigation, also make sure to give them the boss' name. You want that name in print, because they are the person who will pressure others. The more focus (name in print) on the boss, the greater the pressure.

The family may also want to hire a lawyer to request information. This may not be necessary, but I just get the sense that the family is being kept from basic information.

Unfortunately, a good amount of time has passed since your Father was murdered. Time deadens cases and removes pressure, neither are to your advantage. Someone in your family should be creating as much pressure on LE as possible.

God bless your Father, you and your family.

YellowDog
11-14-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't believe your Father was killed at the bar. First off, they would have needed the keys to his house, the key to the safe and the combination to the safe. Your Father probably carried these keys in his pocket (especially the one to the safe). I think he was taken back to the house, held captive while they got access to and looted the safe, then driven to the strip pit, forced out of the vehicle, taken close to the strip pit, made to lie down, then shot in the back of the head and pushed into the water. A bloody fight probably took place at the bar before they subdued your Father.

This could easily have been a set-up by the girlfriend and some people she knew and the reason she went to the bar was to establish her alibi by doing what she normally did on a day to day basis and throw suspicion away from her.

Wudge
11-14-2009, 04:23 PM
I don't believe your Father was killed at the bar. First off, they would have needed the keys to his house, the key to the safe and the combination to the safe. Your Father probably carried these keys in his pocket (especially the one to the safe). I think he was taken back to the house, held captive while they got access to and looted the safe, then driven to the strip pit, forced out of the vehicle, taken close to the strip pit, made to lie down, then shot in the back of the head and pushed into the water. A bloody fight probably took place at the bar before they subdued your Father.

This could easily have been a set-up by the girlfriend and some people she knew and the reason she went to the bar was to establish her alibi by doing what she normally did on a day to day basis and throw suspicion away from her.

It cannot be totally established that his girlfriend was not somehow involved, however, she also worked at the bar. She would have known that the bar did not have a safe, only the home. As such, it would not seem to make sense for her to have someone initiate a confrontation with Mr. Nash at the bar. That is, if the safe in the house did, indeed, have money removed from it.

missingmydad
11-14-2009, 11:38 PM
We are unaware of what the le or osbi thinks. they have not made that clear to us.
yes, it would be normal for him to leave the car keys in the ignition.
had he been in the house after the scuffle we would have found blood in the house.
we were not told what they found anywhere, that info is confidential even to us.
it had rained a lot in days before and after his murder, but sun shining the day of.
we are unaware who seen the red import truck. do not know what vehicle they have.
i request news interviews every month, i have been on the air each time just requesting that people please talk if they know anything and to be careful, since a killer is still walking free. i also went on after the task force was announced.
exactly what info are they obligated to tell me? each time i am told they cannot really get into a certain subject. do they have to tell me everything?
i don't know if they tried to make it look like suicide or what.
i honestly have no idea. i do not really trust anyone now. i don't have a suspect either though. i just think whoever it is, they are sure bold to do this in broad daylight. i have heard a million rumors around town. mafia, drugs, affairs, money, jealousy, all kinds of things but none makes any sense. it still does not seem real at all.
today he has been gone 6 months, rest in peace daddy, i love you.

Vegas Bride
11-15-2009, 12:00 AM
Have you thought about hiring a private investigator?

VB

colette
11-15-2009, 12:39 AM
The murderer has to be someone known. Why hide/take the body and lock the room to the safe after the money was gone?
...To buy time and keep the crime hidden.

Soulmagent
11-15-2009, 02:48 AM
ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.

I find it completely crazy that the locked door was not opened by the police. Really that fact right there is a hard one to swallow.
They find blood everwhere enough to decide to crime tape it off and now they are looking for an injured person who may have went home and may have been in that locked room needing help? really wth? I know surely after the jonbonet incident there are memo's about that kinda crap arent there?
Why kill a man if you know where he lives and where his safe is and his schedule? There was something they needed from him if it was money why leave 750 in his pocket? If it was the money in the safe why not get it while he was at work?
B&E is alot better then murder. Easier and less stressful.Is anybody calling family members asking how the police are coming alone. Checking in more often or not like they used to.
I know you are getting bombarded with questions but hopefuly they will be helpful at some point even though it may seem redundant at first. I too have few that you may not be able to answer now or ever some might lead to stuff to look out for.

Was his body hidden in something (sheet bag etc. )
where there any clothes missing from his house ? Shoes or boots?
Are there any places that would have caught that truck on tape in the directions it was know to travel that day at anytime.
Have you been to local junkyards to check for said truck? Might be a long shot as there could be many red trucks.
I also would think someone who obtained alot of cash would be spending it in places like wal mart and they might have needed new shoes that day and a different car soon afterward criminals now know alot about evidence hanging arround which is why they took the body and that truck may have only been used for that and ditched.Maybe it was planned And checking pockets of the man whos safe they wanted didnt fit the plan. And the Bar crime scene doesnt make sence if the person knew him,very risky smaller time frame and more witnesses. Why? Dont stop asking.

Debbie Miller
11-15-2009, 09:27 AM
Ok, after further thought on this and reading only partially thru the posts on this thread, I have to say.

When Mr. Neff was found - the only wound to him that is mentioned is "a gunshot wound to head" I take that as one shot. Wondering if where in the head this was. Is it possible that his hat fell off his head and the lighter out of his pocket when he fell from being shot? Or was he in the midst of lighting a cigarette when he was shot and his hand went up and tipped the hat off his head? Lighter falls out of his hand? Also if he was shot in the back of the head this would explain why no defense wounds.

So I see no overkill here as in rage for revenge. Was this a murder for hire?

Nothing much is mentioned about the condition of the inside of the bar, were tables turned over or chairs? Something to show a scuffle? Just a mention of a violent crime scene - meaning the blood. Why was it stated that Mr. Neff was just injured and not that he was dead with the amount of blood in the bar?

Mr. Neff had $750.00 on him when found in the strip pit, so I am not so sure that money is the actual motive. Does anyone know for sure how much money was in the safe? Maybe what he had on him was what he had in the safe.

One article mentions the safe was broke into and the heading of the same article mentions "ransacked safe"

Now going with what missingmydad says, the door to the room where the safe was was locked with no sign of forced entry. The safe showed no signs of being broken into just sitting open - well more than likely Mr. Neff would not have left it open even with the door locked, so I think the safe door being left open is a stage and not even a motive. Also, with the house being in perfect order, this tells me that someone wasn't in a hurry while in there if in there at all. Who would have had access to where the keys were either when on Joe or while not on him when he was sleeping? The gf. Or this could have been staged at the house after the fact, but not so likely if he was declared as missing , the house would be the first place to search as it was.

Now this happening in the daylight hours is no big deal to these people. They were parked in the back of the bar and made their exit this way, going from the pics of the bar.

gliving
11-15-2009, 10:01 AM
FWIW, Mr Neff had a business INC.

http://www.manta.com/company/mm3ldqm

Debbie Miller
11-15-2009, 10:14 AM
FWIW, Mr Neff had a business INC.

http://www.manta.com/company/mm3ldqm

He seems to be the only one listed as a holder in the company.

Wudge
11-15-2009, 10:15 AM
We are unaware of what the le or osbi thinks. they have not made that clear to us.
yes, it would be normal for him to leave the car keys in the ignition.
had he been in the house after the scuffle we would have found blood in the house.
we were not told what they found anywhere, that info is confidential even to us.
it had rained a lot in days before and after his murder, but sun shining the day of.
we are unaware who seen the red import truck. do not know what vehicle they have.
i request news interviews every month, i have been on the air each time just requesting that people please talk if they know anything and to be careful, since a killer is still walking free. i also went on after the task force was announced.
exactly what info are they obligated to tell me? each time i am told they cannot really get into a certain subject. do they have to tell me everything?
i don't know if they tried to make it look like suicide or what.
i honestly have no idea. i do not really trust anyone now. i don't have a suspect either though. i just think whoever it is, they are sure bold to do this in broad daylight. i have heard a million rumors around town. mafia, drugs, affairs, money, jealousy, all kinds of things but none makes any sense. it still does not seem real at all.
today he has been gone 6 months, rest in peace daddy, i love you.


Thank you for the information.


I agree with one thing you said: do not trust anyone outside the family. And that definitely includes LE. Far too often, people give blind trust to LE only to end up with great misgivings and serious disappointment.

Given that the sun was shining, I agree that whatever took place that day was likely bold, because they certainly would have had the option to do the same thing to your Father under the cover of night. However, he may have had his girlfriend with him at that time, and they might have decided they did not want to deal with her. Hence, the daylight robbery and/or abduction and murder. Be that as it may, boldness points to something I previously mentioned. It's a strong indicator that the person or persons who did this to your Father were not amateurs. In other words, they almost assuredly have prior experience in committing serious criminal acts. So they might well have a record or, at the very least, are known by local LE -- in the usual suspects way.

As regards what LE is required to give you, the answer is: nothing. However, significant time has passed and LE has not solved your Father's murder. You and the family have every right to be skeptical. LE has not performed as expected and, as best I can see, they have kept you (and I assume all family members) in the dark -- treating you like mushrooms.

It sounds to me like information is a one way street in this case. You and family members have given them information so as to aid them, in turn, they seem to have kept basic information from you and the family.

Take this for whatever you think this is worth, but my experience is that strong family involvement is often a great aid in solving crimes. I have a bad feeling that the family is not in the loop, and as time passes, I fear the family is going to feel pretty poor about the way things transpired.

Project yourself into the future, if LE does not solve your Father's murder in a few months, what then? What will the family do? What information will the family have at that time that would really allow for an independent effort?

If you do not force the issue, I think you will end-up finding that you are missing a lot of basic (and highly important) information. I suggest you reread my post where I talked about getting to the boss of the person in charge of the case and trying to get a reporter interested in the case. And do consider hiring an attorney so as to gain basic case information. Most anywhere you go in this nation, you are likely to find LE to be an arrogant organization. But you deserve and have a right to basic information in this case. Unfortunately, you might well need an attorney to assist in obtaining it.

By my measure, after six months, the information should be shared unless LE is hot on the trail. And given that you say they have no leads, this sounds far more like a cold case than a hot case.

Going back to case facts, from what you have told the forum, I would not assume that just because you did not find blood in the house that your Father was not seized at the bar and taken to the house. You need to know how LE determined that a certain amount of money was stolen from the safe. If that is a fact, then you really need to reassess your assumptions.

Based on what you have told me, you simply do not have the information necessary to form reliable premises or assumptions, and that is key to figuring out what transpired. You and the family really need to know or decide if the safe was robbed. If it was, I doubt it was with your Father's body lying dead in their vehicle (waiting to be dumped at the strip mine).

Finally, I believe you need to find out who saw the red truck and personally meet with them to assess for yourself exactly what they saw and when. In addition to OSBI, I suspect the Sherriff has this information (and other basic information as well).

God bless your Father, you and your family.

gliving
11-15-2009, 10:27 AM
Did Mr Neff have a life insurance policy? Who were the beneficiaries?

gliving
11-15-2009, 10:44 AM
Neff was last seen at about 9 a.m. Thursday in a local store. Prior to that, a female friend of his reported seeing Neff at around 7 a.m., said LeFlore County Sheriff Bruce Curnutt.

Investigators interviewed people who have been banned from the bar, but nothing came up during the interviews that led police to believe someone had held a grudge. Neff has not had to ban anyone from the bar recently, Curnutt said.

Authorities said Neff went to his business around 10:30 a.m. and some type of altercation occurred between 11:20 and 11:40 a.m. that caused quite a bit of blood loss, Brown said.

A good friend of Neff’s arrived at the business just prior to the employee and found the same scene, Brown said.

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/16/news/news051609_04.txt

Was the female friend that saw Mr. Neff at 7AM staying at his home, or did they meet somewhere else? If it was his girlfriend and she was staying with him, then she was at the home that morning and did not go to work until close to noon. How was the safe broken into that morning if she was there?

Vegas Bride
11-15-2009, 12:12 PM
I believe you said his girlfriend had been in the picture for a year. Did he have other girlfriends previously? I'm just wondering if there was an ex who may have felt she was owed something.
Also, when for certain was your father seen by other people other than the girlfriend before he went missing? Could the bar have been staged and he was not attacked there at all? It seems riskier to be doing all of this in broad daylight.

Since this has happened, what has become of the bar? Is it being run by someone else, sold, or closed down?
If the girlfriend worked there before, what is she doing now?
How many other people worked there?

VB

ChasingMoxie
11-15-2009, 02:01 PM
Was the female friend that saw Mr. Neff at 7AM staying at his home, or did they meet somewhere else? If it was his girlfriend and she was staying with him, then she was at the home that morning and did not go to work until close to noon. How was the safe broken into that morning if she was there?

This is a very interesting question! If the girlfriend was home, how did someone rob the safe?

gliving
11-15-2009, 02:12 PM
This is a very interesting question! If the girlfriend was home, how did someone rob the safe?


I wonder what's her alibi. Surely it's not that easy.

gliving
11-15-2009, 02:36 PM
The sheriff's office and agents with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation have been conducting their investigation and searching for the body at the crime scene and the area surrounding the bar.
A search warrant was exercised Friday afternoon at Neff's home on Country Club Lane in Poteau.
A family member asked for a deputy Friday afternoon to come to Neff's home because they discovered the safe had been left open and knew that to be unusual.
"We got a search warrant so that we could search the entire house and property," Curnutt said.

http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/141810/

Looks like LE didn't search his property until the day and a half later.

YellowDog
11-15-2009, 07:03 PM
It cannot be totally established that his girlfriend was not somehow involved, however, she also worked at the bar. She would have known that the bar did not have a safe, only the home. As such, it would not seem to make sense for her to have someone initiate a confrontation with Mr. Nash at the bar. That is, if the safe in the house did, indeed, have money removed from it.


But perhaps the confrontation was unexpected. They may have expected him to go willingly without a fight since they apparently had a gun. Has it been proven that the blood at the bar was Mr. Neff's? Couldn't it have been the assailants that got bloodied instead? Mr. Neff was a big, strong man.

Debbie Miller
11-15-2009, 11:54 PM
no calls were suspicious, yes I think it a local, probably money, why would they haul his body away? why not leave it there, they never wanted it to be found i guess.

I would believe that someone was buying thier self some time, as mentioned before.

I have a question, did someone say that his body was covered in a sheet?

Debbie Miller
11-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Curnutt watched as $740 in cash was removed from Neff’s shirt pocket.

"This wasn’t a robbery,” Curnutt said. "This was personal.”



This is very important - the money in his pocket wasn't taken. The house was left in perfect order and only the safe found sitting open. I believe that the safe was to throw off the motive.

MeoW333
11-16-2009, 12:26 AM
I would take a close look at the girlfriend and a male she may be friends with; possibly an unknown male/
She would have known about the safe, the work hours, everything, especially if she was there that morning when the safe was broken into. She also may have made a copy of the safe key while she had a chance and also took the original.

Soulmagent
11-16-2009, 01:17 AM
I have a safe and I leave it open all the time. Of course I only have titles to cars and birth certificates in mine but I do leave they door wide open and if somebody wanted to say I kept 10,000 in there after I died for insurance purposes I suppose they could get away with it.
Not saying that is what happened here. Just throwing it out there. He really could have left an empty safe open and done something else with the money.

Roselvr
11-16-2009, 06:19 AM
The sheriff's office and agents with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation have been conducting their investigation and searching for the body at the crime scene and the area surrounding the bar.
A search warrant was exercised Friday afternoon at Neff's home on Country Club Lane in Poteau.
A family member asked for a deputy Friday afternoon to come to Neff's home because they discovered the safe had been left open and knew that to be unusual.
"We got a search warrant so that we could search the entire house and property," Curnutt said.

http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/141810/

In addition, officials are also looking for an older model Toyota or Nissan red pickup thought to be in connection with the crime.

Wudge
11-16-2009, 07:13 AM
This is very important - the money in his pocket wasn't taken. The house was left in perfect order and only the safe found sitting open. I believe that the safe was to throw off the motive.

The reason that's important (Sherriff's allegation of 'personal') is because it would cause LE to look for a much different person. Obviously, if the safe was, indeed, robbed, the other option for the person who murdered Mr. Nash would be an armed robber or robbers. A robber's profile versus a revenge or otherwise 'personal' profile are very different. So, as regards the safe being found open in the home, we need to know what LE has settled on and why.

If LE has reliably determined that thousands of dollars were taken from the safe, then that would not likely make the murder 'personal. And if LE did determine that, how was it done?

That's why I have asked for clarification as regards the safe that was found open behind locked doors in Mr. Nash's home. What does LE hold and how did they arrive at their holding. This is critical.

Roselvr
11-16-2009, 07:25 AM
I would take a close look at the girlfriend and a male she may be friends with; possibly an unknown male/
She would have known about the safe, the work hours, everything, especially if she was there that morning when the safe was broken into. She also may have made a copy of the safe key while she had a chance and also took the original.

I don't know the girlfriend; nor have I seen anything with her in it.
The way I feel; that's usually who is pointed at 1st.

Did anyone go to Joe's house every day?
Did they know for a fact how much cash he kept in there?
Honestly, who knows if the safe was even robbed?
Were his bank accounts looked at?

Is it possible he kept money in the safe at home to close/open the bar every day?
Could have been his routine to bring the cash home, then take it all with him in the morning; drop some at the bank; then go open the bar.

Perhaps he left the safe door open when there wasn't much in it and felt only locking the room door was enough?

I'm curious how much blood was found at the bar and what that blood looked like. Was it a puddle? Was it splatter?
Were there any other marks on Joe's body? All we've read about his the gun shot.

What about the cameras that were at the bar? Were they real?
We had cameras at the gas station, they did not record everything. At one time they just took pictures of each area. There were days my dad didn't record.

I'm thinking that there was no video footage.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-16-2009, 09:34 AM
ok so someone leaves the safe OPEN, then locks the door. Possibly to throw off the trail? the back of the head, I agree, sounds, well, hittish...were there any problems in your town of gangs? how about you said that the 740 was not unusual, that he would loan out money. By all accounts, your father seems like such a caring person. BUT we know that when people need money, they are sometimes not in the best position. We kind of hit on it earlier, but could anyone have been pulling back an IOU out of the safe? Did your dad need a notebook or any paperwork to keep up with what he loaned or was this more small town, a friend needed cash he'd loan and worry about payback later? it just seems so odd that the money was not taken, the house was undisturbed, and the door was locked on the way OUT. Those key's are still somewhere! ugh :(

YellowDog
11-16-2009, 11:58 AM
Since the door to the room where the safe was located was locked, but the safe was open, could your father have earlier emptied out the safe and had the money on his person with the idea of taking it to the bank for deposit that day? And, if so, might the girlfriend have known he had the money on him? If that was the case, then I'd say, yes, the murder happened at the bar and the robbery took place at the bar.

IWannaKnow
11-16-2009, 12:52 PM
Just wondering if Mr. Neff could have been holding something for someone in the safe? From what I've read he seemed to be someone who would do anything for anyone, could someone have asked him to hold something for them and other people got wind of that? I'm thinking something incriminating, not money. And once they decided he knew about it, he had to be removed? That is the only scenario I can come up with that makes any sense.

Poteau, Wister and Red Oak are not that far apart. Large amounts of money mentioned in two of those situations. Has anyone attempted to see if there are any secondary people associated with each of these cases which could tie them together? The timing and circumstances seem very coincidental to me. JMO.

gliving
11-16-2009, 08:51 PM
Was Mr Neff taken in by a ponzi scheme?

johnrodz
11-17-2009, 03:04 PM
missingmydad,

First, let me express my deepest sympathy for you and your family.
Second, welcome to websleuths.

I have just finished reading all the posts in this thread and I have two theories.

1. There was nothing in the safe and has nothing to do with the murder.

2. The GF, if not involved, might have seized the opportunity to take what was in the safe with the knowledge that Mr. Neff could not possibly be alive due to the amount of blood at the bar. Could she have had time or opportunity to enter the home after the murder and before you found the safe empty?

IMO, based on what I have read, I don’t feel the safe is directly related to the murder.

Roselvr
11-17-2009, 03:12 PM
I have just finished reading all the posts in this thread and I have two theories.

1. There was nothing in the safe and has nothing to do with the murder.

2. The GF, if not involved, might have seized the opportunity to take what was in the safe with the knowledge that Mr. Neff could not possibly be alive due to the amount of blood at the bar. Could she have had time or opportunity to enter the home after the murder and before you found the safe empty?

IMO, based on what I have read, I don’t feel the safe is directly related to the murder.

Interesting..

It actually could have been anyone with the safe though IMO.
Could have also been family or friends.

Basically, yeah, someone could have seized the opportunity to take the cash if there was any in there.

I still wonder who knew how much he kept in there..

Vegas Bride
11-17-2009, 03:19 PM
Something I'm wondering about.
Was it common practice for him to go to the bar alone or did his girlfriend usually go with him? What was his normal routine every morning?
Also, was it normal for his friend to show up early at the bar like he did or was that unusual? Why did his friend go there that morning?

VB

Roselvr
11-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Another thought - was it common for his girlfriend to spend the night?

johnrodz
11-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Interesting..

It actually could have been anyone with the safe though IMO.
Could have also been family or friends.

Basically, yeah, someone could have seized the opportunity to take the cash if there was any in there.

I still wonder who knew how much he kept in there..


IMO, If Mr. Neff's daughter did not have access to the room or safe, the only other person I could think he may have trusted with access would be the gf. I too, wonder if anyone knew how much he kept in it. How did the papers get "thousands"?

rccook555
11-17-2009, 03:50 PM
IMO, If Mr. Neff's daughter did not have access to the room or safe, the only other person I could think he may have trusted with access would be the gf. I too, wonder if anyone knew how much he kept in it. How did the papers get "thousands"?

The safe throws me off a little also, well the Locked room does anyway. If it doesnt self-lock, it almost seems like it was done by someone out of habit over someone trying to throw LE off. I think it was still motivated by money. The money in his shirt pocket could have went easily overlooked. Most people keep money in their wallets, not shirt pockets so it could have just been an oversight of the killer/s. Or something could have made them rush to get rid of him and get out of there before they had a chance to search him for additional money. I am leaning more towards the GF with an additional one or two accomplices. She does have a criminal record and has used aliases before per record searches.
I have high hope the task force they brought in will resolve this very quickly. My thoughts and prayers for the family.

Roselvr
11-17-2009, 03:54 PM
IMO, If Mr. Neff's daughter did not have access to the room or safe, the only other person I could think he may have trusted with access would be the gf. I too, wonder if anyone knew how much he kept in it. How did the papers get "thousands"?

IMO, just because the daughter that comes here did not have access, does not mean someone else didn't either.

I was the only one out of 3 kids with access to everything with my dad. I knew the safe combo, where the key was; where he kept extra cash (in both cars lol) as well as the stuff he kept at his house. Neither my 2 siblings nor my "mother" knew any of this.

They actually junked his car with cash still in it. :banghead:

Roselvr
11-17-2009, 03:56 PM
The money in his shirt pocket could have went easily overlooked. Most people keep money in their wallets, not shirt pockets so it could have just been an oversight of the killer/s.

If we take the safe out of the equation; then you wonder why they did not take money from his shirt. It very well could be that there was cash in another pocket from when he got to the bar to open it; the money for the bar was kept separate from the pocket money.

I'm not convinced anyone was even in his house; but I wasn't there either.

OneLostGrl
11-17-2009, 04:23 PM
I am so sorry for your loss! I hope you find what happened and those responsible are held accountable!

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 10:59 PM
I find it completely crazy that the locked door was not opened by the police. Really that fact right there is a hard one to swallow.
They find blood everwhere enough to decide to crime tape it off and now they are looking for an injured person who may have went home and may have been in that locked room needing help? really wth? I know surely after the jonbonet incident there are memo's about that kinda crap arent there?
Why kill a man if you know where he lives and where his safe is and his schedule? There was something they needed from him if it was money why leave 750 in his pocket? If it was the money in the safe why not get it while he was at work?
B&E is alot better then murder. Easier and less stressful.Is anybody calling family members asking how the police are coming alone. Checking in more often or not like they used to.
I know you are getting bombarded with questions but hopefuly they will be helpful at some point even though it may seem redundant at first. I too have few that you may not be able to answer now or ever some might lead to stuff to look out for.

Was his body hidden in something (sheet bag etc. )
where there any clothes missing from his house ? Shoes or boots?
Are there any places that would have caught that truck on tape in the directions it was know to travel that day at anytime.
Have you been to local junkyards to check for said truck? Might be a long shot as there could be many red trucks.
I also would think someone who obtained alot of cash would be spending it in places like wal mart and they might have needed new shoes that day and a different car soon afterward criminals now know alot about evidence hanging arround which is why they took the body and that truck may have only been used for that and ditched.Maybe it was planned And checking pockets of the man whos safe they wanted didnt fit the plan. And the Bar crime scene doesnt make sence if the person knew him,very risky smaller time frame and more witnesses. Why? Dont stop asking.

WE WERE NEVER TOLD THE CONDITION OF HIS BODY WHEN IT WAS FOUND I ASSUME IT WAS NOT COVERED SINCE THE FISHERMAN KNEW IT WAS A BODY RIGHT AWAY.
I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY CLOTHING OR SHOES MISSING FROM HIS HOME.
IF ANYWHERE CAUGHT IT ON TAPE THEN WE DON'T KNOW IT, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL ROUTES THAT COULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM THE BAR TO POCOLA. I HAVE NOT CHECKED JUNK YARDS BUT THATS GOOD IDEA.
I HAVE NOT HEARD OF ANYONE SPENDING MORE MONEY THAN USUAL, BUT THE LE I AM SURE HAS TAKEN NOTE OF IT IF ANYONE HAS CALLED ANY INFO IN. I CALL OFTEN, JUST TO CHECK, BUT THEY ARE VERY VAGUE.
I AGREE, ANYONE THAT WOULD DO THIS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, IS EITHER CRAZY OR STUPID. I MEAN IT IS SCARY ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL LET ALONE MURDER!! I CANNOT BELIEVE IT IS REALLY HAPPENING. AND THEN TO THINK THEY DROVE ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO WHERE THEY DUMPED HIM. WHAT IF THEY WOULD HAVE WRECKED OR BEEN PULLED OVER, OH MAN I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE. SICK, SICK PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. :mad:

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Ok there were probably 4 or 5 barmaids that worked down there. I think all of them went to work at the same bar now. Including the gf. The gf had a 2nd job she was at other job that morning, yes she stayed the night and seen him before she left. Worked a while at other job then came to work at bar, found the scene. Dad was seen by in different places, for sure, he paid a bill and bought a part. Bar is closed down since may 14th and is for sale.
The life ins was not enough to pay for funeral and gets pd at 150 per month for a long time. My sister and i are the benefic. On it. Oh the insurance company (and i think all of them are the same) they will only cover up to $200 of stolen money and the ded. Is more than that. So it be would not have been for the insurance.

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 11:31 PM
Was Mr Neff taken in by a ponzi scheme?

what is a ponze scheme? just curious. i have never heard of it.

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 11:37 PM
thurs-dad was killed, my husband takes the cops to look at dads. they skipped over the locked door, my husband told them it always stayed locked. at this time though we didn't know dad was dead. my husband and i stayed the night there in case he called and needed help. we were there til morning and my mom and family friend stayed the day while the rest of us searched, so the house was not left empty. door still locked. there were so many people in and out over those days. but nobody there alone. i stayed each night, since he was killed. on friday after we searched we all met up again to update each other where we looked, we decided to break in to see. found it called cops they got search warrant etc.

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 11:42 PM
i wonder if dad got into safe everyday, it may have been broken into days before but that would be risky too, had he found it before, but then they could have left him alive. i just do not understand. even if it was or was not for money they could have left him alive, he would have gave them all the money or whatever. he was just too nice. i do not know about him holding something for someone. he was too smart to hve something illegal there he would have made an excuse as to why he couldn't hold it, he was not a stupid man. that is why this is so scary, he was the SMARTEST MAN I KNEW, he was too careful i cannot believe anyone could have snuck up and done this to him. he always paid attention to everything and everyone. he taught me to always be aware of what is going on around you, how did they do this without him suspecting something?

Tizzle
11-17-2009, 11:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

The Bernard "Bernie" Madoff mess is a good example.

missingmydad
11-17-2009, 11:47 PM
if it were 2 seperate crimes then why kill him? was that just for sport? i don't understand, that is how i have thought about this, they killed him or money, but if that is not true, why would they kill him, are there people out there that would do that for free? if they had nothing to gain then why kill him? i don't know why they killed him anyway... they could have just asked, he would have done anything. what else could be a motive, i have heard jealousy but would they have killed him then tried to hide the body or just left it there. if it was a hit, who paid, and where did they get their money? oh we will catch them, i feel it, thank you everyone!!!!

Soulmagent
11-18-2009, 12:36 AM
I am not an expert. This is my opinoin

Okay so the known factors to drive a person to murder are
the ending of a relationship
getting fired from a job
lossing ones home.

I would also expect someone who could do this to have a history of threats and be prone to get angry easy. And be able to have an accomplice capable of the same type of crime.

If it is personal then you knowing your dad and his daily activities should be able to come up with a list of suspects. If he was alive who would he think killed him?
Here we are limited to not mentioning names as they arent named in the media. That is a great rule but it makes it harder for you. you can give us clues and obits and arrest records

It may be hard for you to do this but it may bring you answers or relief.
Do you think that someone your dad knew killed him? or do you think it was a stranger?
I know you have said you dont know who could have done this to him but does that mean you have no suspects?

Roselvr
11-18-2009, 06:10 AM
Know anyone thats sick?
By sick, I mean someone diagnosed with cancer, new diagnosis.
They could have flipped out, shooting your dad by accident.

I mention this because it's pretty common from what I'm hearing for people that have been diagnosed to go into rages.
These are people that don't normally rage.

Roselvr
11-18-2009, 07:34 AM
Has anyone seen this one yet?

Body of missing woman found (http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/158815/1/) - Wednesday, 09 September 2009

Not sure if it has anything to do with these unsolved cases.

Roselvr
11-18-2009, 08:48 AM
Missingmydad, is it possible to call LE and find out how they came to the conclusion of how much money was taken?

I'm sure you & your sister would know about bank accounts your dad had. You would be able to see any deposits; whether or not he deposited money the day he was killed; and/or you should be able to see a pattern of what days of the week he made bar deposits.

Did your dad ride motorcycles? Motorcycle Ride Honors Slain Bar Owner (http://www.4029tv.com/news/20330998/detail.html) - "We're doing what Joe did every Sunday," said Stacey Nickell of the Protector's Motorcycle Association. "We're doing the same ride that he did."

These are the papers she mentions
Poteau Daily News (http://www.poteaudailynews.com/) - pretty worthless
40 29tv.com (http://www.4029tv.com/index.html)

Video Family And Friends Continue To Search For Missing Man (http://www.4029tv.com/video/19483447/index.html)

Google maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl) - Long Branch Saloon Poteau Oklahoma - who added - This place is permanently closed?

I've been watching videos, reading stories for the last few hours..

My question - Joe is listed as living at 2 places - my guess is one is not your dad - I'm pretty sure they said country club rd. The other is N Broadway St.

From what I am mapping, they'd drive past his house when leaving the bar to drive to the strip pit.

Google maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Long+Branch+Saloon+68155+Hwy+59,+Poteau,+OK&daddr=Country+Club+Rd,+Poteau,+Le+Flore,+Oklahoma+ 74953+to:Davis+St,+Pocola,+OK+74902&geocode=FUjXFQId0Olb-iEq28fnQqP9Pg%3BFUCBFgId0ulb-iltHejxUPHKhzEGoHaGkqp3Cg%3BFf-GGQIdMNRd-ikXZ0uyL1HKhzE39WIFZYWzTQ&hl=en&mra=pe&mrcr=0,1&sll=35.108995,-94.576414&sspn=0.408928,0.566483&ie=UTF8&z=11&lci=com.google.webcams)
A. Long Branch Saloon 68155 Hwy 59, Poteau, OK
B. Country Club Rd, Poteau, Le Flore, Oklahoma 74953
C. Davis St, Pocola, OK 74902

Gonna post what I have here as I don't have much more time before leaving for hubby's radiation treatment. I'm going to try to work on a map of the others that have been killed

Debbie Miller
11-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Without the money as a motive, it is hard to say what it could have been besides putting the girlfriend in the scenerio. The facts are limited and the cops are surely further with this than we can be due to that.

By putting the body in the strip pit I would say this person(s) wanted to hide their crime (of course). So this isn't some random killer who has no conscience, spur of the moment. I would think also with the info we know (and we don't know about bullet casings found) that the one who did the shooting is a good shot, steady hand.

JMO

dgfred
11-18-2009, 04:14 PM
Plus taking the body away to another location is taking a giant chance of being 'found out'. Why not just leave the body, unless it might lead to a suspect?

Roselvr
11-18-2009, 05:34 PM
Without the money as a motive, it is hard to say what it could have been besides putting the girlfriend in the scenerio. The facts are limited and the cops are surely further with this than we can be due to that.

By putting the body in the strip pit I would say this person(s) wanted to hide their crime (of course). So this isn't some random killer who has no conscience, spur of the moment. I would think also with the info we know (and we don't know about bullet casings found) that the one who did the shooting is a good shot, steady hand.

I've never read about any bullet casings found; just blood.
As far as his body in the strip pit.. there have been a few murders where the body was located in weird places - Jody's was in a remote spot on a mountain - it was by chance that a paraglider spotted her. In her case, it's also not known how she died and if the body was moved. They know she was dragged about 35 feet; that's it. Badly decomposed body and she'd only been gone a few days. Killed the same month as Joe IIRC.

I'm sure Joe's girlfriend was looked at thoroughly just like Jody's husband has been looked at.

Jody's is even weirder because it looks like the hubby did it - took their 3 month old to a funeral in New Mexico; Jody just happened to lose her cell, plus they found her car parked on the road he would drive there. Jody was supposed to go to the funeral with him but did not. Family/friends can't pin down the last correspondence; they are not sure if it was phone or email and what dates. They can see "she" logged into myspace & facebook but it doesn't prove it was actually her.

IMO, I'd be inclined to say there is a psycho there killing people. Look at the newest one I posted today; another unexplained death. You then have the 2 tween girls from last year, IIRC there are a total of 7 from this year alone.

Roselvr
11-18-2009, 05:35 PM
Plus taking the body away to another location is taking a giant chance of being 'found out'. Why not just leave the body, unless it might lead to a suspect?

That's the thing; it seems like the person killing there is moving the bodies to places they should not be found or places where animals will get them so that evidence will be gone

dgfred
11-19-2009, 10:41 AM
Nice searching and detective work R, keep up the good work.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-19-2009, 11:50 AM
ok, so maybe the safe was broken into before hand. just a theory here...

Your dad finds his safe broken into and KNOWS who did it. AFter all not everyone knows whats in the safe, how much is in the safe and what it takes to get into it.

Dad asks that person to come by bar, confronts him with evidence. Leaves the residence as was except locks the door back in case he has to call police on a friend/family/known acquaintance(?) that he somehow KNOWS broke into the safe.

THe person freaks out and shots your dad.

That would explain locked door, safe left open, that sort of thing.

Did anyone stop by just to "see" your dad at the home while you were there and was shocked that he was missing?

again, maybe very far off base, but as smart of a man as everyone say's your dad was, and as strong as he was, it's just so hard to believe he was out witted or over powered. Everyone DOES say he had a heart of gold tho... :(

Roselvr
11-19-2009, 03:54 PM
Nice searching and detective work R, keep up the good work.

Thank you.
A member PM'd me and gave me her list of killings there.
Once I have more time I will see what I can do with it.

I was thinking that maybe we should get another post going with all of the Oklahoma killings to see if anything is common.

ok, so maybe the safe was broken into before hand. just a theory here...

Your dad finds his safe broken into and KNOWS who did it. AFter all not everyone knows whats in the safe, how much is in the safe and what it takes to get into it.

Dad asks that person to come by bar, confronts him with evidence. Leaves the residence as was except locks the door back in case he has to call police on a friend/family/known acquaintance(?) that he somehow KNOWS broke into the safe.

THe person freaks out and shots your dad.

That would explain locked door, safe left open, that sort of thing.

Did anyone stop by just to "see" your dad at the home while you were there and was shocked that he was missing?

again, maybe very far off base, but as smart of a man as everyone say's your dad was, and as strong as he was, it's just so hard to believe he was out witted or over powered. Everyone DOES say he had a heart of gold tho... :(

I like this theory.

sweetheart29
11-19-2009, 05:34 PM
My list is in the jury room I did not know where to put it.

Roselvr
11-19-2009, 06:22 PM
My list is in the jury room I did not know where to put it.

Thank you. The link is here - What is going on in southeastern Oklahoma

I don't know where to post this maybe a better sleuth than me can find a connection to these people.

There have been alot of people reported missing or found dead all with in a 75 miles radius. Here are some of the ones I have found I am trying to find out if there are any connection other than they all went missing/found in this area.

clayton-Jeffrey Ben- missing 2001-found,
Talihina-Joe Keys-missing 2001- notfound,
Calyton-Darrell Hammons-missing2001-not found
http://www.mcalesternews.com/local/local_story_084150558.html
Joe Neff Joe Neff (my dad) unsolved murder 14 May 2009 -no leads - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91287)
Jody Rilee Wilson, 23, of Wister
Boby,Sherilynn,and Madyson Jamison
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90523&highlight=jamison&page=22
http://maggiesnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/10/bobby-jamison-sherilynn-jamison-is.html
Dusty Nichole Loggains
http://www.poteaudailynews.com/content/view/158815/1/
Stephen Adams
http://www.ok.gov/osbi/Press_Room/2009_Press_Releases/PR-2009-08-26__REWARD_OFFERED_IN_MISSING_MAN_CASE.html
3 counties involved Pushmataha, Leflore, Latimer

http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/cri...nty/40127.html

Addition - Joe David Key (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/key_joe.html) - Key was last seen in Talihina, Oklahoma on Febraury 12, 2001. He has never been heard from again. Few details are available in his case. Key, Darrell Hammons, and Jeffrey Lee Ben went missing from the same area and within a year of one another. Ben's remains were found in Pushmataha County, Oklahoma in 2006; Hammons is still missing. Photographs and vital statistics for Hammons are unavailable. It has been suggested that there is some connection between the cases, but no links have been established. All three men's disappearances remain unsolved.

Stephan Mitchell Adams (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/adams_stephan.html)- December 13, 2004 from Tahlequah, Oklahoma Adams called his girlfriend on his cellular phone at 11:00 a.m. on December 13, 2004 and told her he was giving a man a ride to Keys, Oklahoma. He was in good spirits at the time of the conversation. Authorities later determined that at the time he spoke to his girlfriend, Adams had been south of Tahlequah, Oklahoma. Someone tried to call his phone at 11:30 a.m. and it rang only once before going to voice mail; all calls after that were transferred immediately to voice mail. Between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 p.m. he was seen at a convenience store in Cookson, Oklahoma. Adams appeared to be upset and agitated at the time. He purchased a soda, then stood outside the store for about five minutes before he left the vicinity in his pickup. He was apparently alone. He has never been heard from again. Adams was carrying a dark-colored bookbag at the time of his disappearance.

Tracie5
11-20-2009, 02:02 AM
The safe throws me off a little also, well the Locked room does anyway. If it doesnt self-lock, it almost seems like it was done by someone out of habit over someone trying to throw LE off. I think it was still motivated by money. The money in his shirt pocket could have went easily overlooked. Most people keep money in their wallets, not shirt pockets so it could have just been an oversight of the killer/s. Or something could have made them rush to get rid of him and get out of there before they had a chance to search him for additional money. I am leaning more towards the GF with an additional one or two accomplices. She does have a criminal record and has used aliases before per record searches.I have high hope the task force they brought in will resolve this very quickly. My thoughts and prayers for the family.

BBM
Did I miss something? Where did this info come from?

Angels_Not_Forgotten
11-20-2009, 10:48 AM
BBM
Did I miss something? Where did this info come from?

Yeah i was wondering that too!!!

Roselvr
11-20-2009, 07:20 PM
This is from Topix - one of the Jody posts - They said that Joe's arms were taped and that they are not sure about his legs.

~snip~

Jimmy wrote:
What I didn't say, and what I was trying to say is that both Joe and Jodie's murders involve these two mountain ranges. That's one simialarity right there. But,was Jody brought there or lured there? Big difference.

I would have to say brought there, considering the Me thinks she was dead when left on top of the mountain, but those are good questions and Joe arms (not sure about the legs) were taped and he was shot in the head. I believe one of his relatives that was on this site not too many pages ago, wondered why he was taped after he was killed.... don't understand that one myself either.

Roselvr
11-20-2009, 07:27 PM
I am leaning more towards the GF with an additional one or two accomplices. She does have a criminal record and has used aliases before per record searches.BBM
Did I miss something? Where did this info come from?

Apparently this poster was able to find the girlfriends name and checked it.
I have never seen her name printed in anything I read.



...

Soulmagent
11-20-2009, 10:56 PM
I didnt see this listed on the thread and wanted to post it.

http://evansfuneralhomes.blogspot.com/2009/05/joe-neff.html

Soulmagent
11-20-2009, 11:19 PM
Apparently this poster was able to find the girlfriends name and checked it.
I have never seen her name printed in anything I read.



...

Me either and not for lack of looking.

missingmydad
11-21-2009, 10:06 PM
The Broadway address is the main highway going through Poteau. The Country Club address was dads. It was probably my dads old shop address.
I know there are a lot of people that would have known that dad got the bar ready to open everyday, but everyone liked dad. He was friends with everyone, I cannot believe that anyone would have gotten mad enough to kill him. It just does not seem real. There are no enemies that I know of.
I am not sure which way they drove to the strip pit. There are 3 or 4 ways. 1. the hwy 59 to broadway going north, then east on hwy 112 to Pocola. 2. go south after leaving bar on hwy 59 turn on hwy 83 go east and go back way through Monroe, Gilmore, and Cameron, then onto 112 to Pocola. 3. go behind back side of bar to the old or new Wister hwy. then you could get on the bypass and it turns into 112. We just are not sure. If he was in the back of a truck how could no one see him all the way to Pocola? If he was bleeding surely they would not have put him in the trunk of a car.
If this was not premeditated then why would the killer already have a gun-with them-loaded and something to tie him up with or cover him with? this sounds planned to me.I liked the scenario of maybe dad noticed someone had broken into the bar and was going to confront them but would he have not told anyone? Wouldn't the le have found records if he had talked to someone suspicious. I still cannot believe that anyone could out wit him, he was just too smart, too careful, and too cautious. More than anyone I know, he was always aware of all his surroundings.
I honestly cannot come up with one good suspect. None of it make any sense. I know I always wonder if my kids and I are safe. Apparently they know dad, do they know us too? Will they kill again? Scary thought.....

Kimster
11-21-2009, 10:50 PM
{{{HUGS}}} to you Missing! I pray the Lord keeps your family in His protection!

missingmydad
11-21-2009, 11:53 PM
Here is his picture and I must say, he was handsome!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/Kimba4jc/joeneff.jpg

i sure do miss this face......

missingmydad
11-21-2009, 11:55 PM
There is a $10,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of his murderer(s)

Vegas Bride
11-22-2009, 01:32 AM
Did you mention earlier that some of the posters that had been put up around the area have been taken down?
Would there be any way you could find out who is taking down the posters? Perhaps have them in places where a security camera is near and could catch them on tape?
Has there been much news coverage done on the murder? Could you contact local/state news people to get more coverage and advertise the reward? Also, what about getting a tip line set up?

VB

Roselvr
11-22-2009, 08:45 AM
3. go behind back side of bar to the old or new Wister hwy. then you could get on the bypass and it turns into 112.

I'm not understanding this one.
Can you tell me if I have the bar location right; what I mean is the pointer on the map?

We just are not sure. If he was in the back of a truck how could no one see him all the way to Pocola? If he was bleeding surely they would not have put him in the trunk of a car.
If this was not premeditated then why would the killer already have a gun-with them-loaded and something to tie him up with or cover him with? this sounds planned to me.I liked the scenario of maybe dad noticed someone had broken into the bar and was going to confront them but would he have not told anyone? Wouldn't the le have found records if he had talked to someone suspicious. I still cannot believe that anyone could out wit him, he was just too smart, too careful, and too cautious. More than anyone I know, he was always aware of all his surroundings.
I honestly cannot come up with one good suspect. None of it make any sense. I know I always wonder if my kids and I are safe. Apparently they know dad, do they know us too? Will they kill again? Scary thought.....

The more I look at the maps; the more I wonder what happened.
That's a fairly long ride with a body; my guess is that someone had a cap on the pick up truck bed or it was a car and he was in the trunk. Could have also been an SUV; mine (Mazda Tribute) has a piece of fabric you pull to cover what's in the back. I guess it would be easy for me to haul a bleeding body as I have a plastic molded mat back there.

i sure do miss this face......

Your dad was a very good looking man.
When I see his pictures; it breaks my heart that he was taken from you. He has such a kind face; his smile looks like it lights up a room.
If a picture could talk, it would say what a wonderful; caring man he was.
Every picture I've seen of him; it glows with his energy; if that makes sense.

This was such a senseless killing; knowing your dad's background, makes it even more senseless. One wonders if there is more to this; someone was going to hurt someone else and your dad got in the middle of it; they panicked.

This is going to be such a rough time for you with the holidays. I'm sure it's already started at least a few weeks ago; where your heart just feels like it's going to break wide open.

With what I have read about your dad; I think he'd want you to try to have as good of a holiday as you can; and try to see that he is right next to you & your family at this time.

I've told you about losing my dad. The 1st Christmas without him (2006) was very hard because we knew his last Christmas (2005) would probably be his last. There were things that happened on that Christmas that we all knew he was there. I 1st noticed it when I put my Christmas music on; it started with "Blue Christmas" by Anne & Nancy Wilson. What was weird was that there were all of my "A Very Special Christmas" total of 4 or 5 CD's; and that was the song it chose to start the shuffle with.

There was something else that made the kids know he was here; it had something to do with the Hess trucks we bought; which was normally what my dad gave my kids. I'd put them way under the tree, all the way in the back corner; you couldn't even see them. Something happened where they ended up moving.

My dad has come to me in other ways. I can sit here on the computer and start missing him; or start crying about what's going on with my hubby now & my computers (I run 2) and cell phone will start freaking out. My cell started rebooting; same for the computer. The phone on my desk will vibrate for no reason. There is no vibrate setting on the phone. The fax machine will start cycling. There is significance in what happens - he used to specialize in car wiring. We also were going to build computers when he got better.

After we moved into this new house (had to move away from my old town cause dad lived 7 blocks away) I found a snake (tiny) in my basement. I've since found 3 snakes this year alone; thankfully only one other one inside; but they were times I was down. My dad used to have my son's plastic snake on his front dashboard - my son now has it in his car. I did not put the snake together with my dad until after the 2nd one.

Also things like greeting cards - I will look for something and find a card that has something to do with making me feel better.

It's going to be 4 years that my dad is gone. While I miss him every day; the pain is not as bad & intense as it was the first 2+ years.

Basically, if you look, you will see. Open your heart & mind and you will see/feel your dad with you.

Also know that you are not alone. Your dad was loved by so many people; that has to fill your heart with some joy; hopefully it eases the pain some for you. It used to for me. There was a tree lighting ceremony in the town my dad owned a gas station in - he was one of the honorees. There was a cop (killed in line of duty) Judge (passed away) and my dad. My dad devoted his life to that town and the rescue squad. My dad's dedication was the longest; I felt so proud. It was a very hard ceremony; I started crying early & could not stop. The next day, I woke to an email from the lady that did the dedication; she'd sent me a copy of her speech. It was beautifully written.

(((HUGS)))


.

Roselvr
11-22-2009, 08:53 AM
Newbie avatar

btw, you can upload a photo of your dad and use it as your avatar.
This is a pic of me & my dad, his last Christmas. He was 69 when he passed away. The cancer made him appear 15 years older :(

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_JDy9cvpFzw8/SwlBq0Cd8HI/AAAAAAAAG_Y/SYmaV9iXu4g/s144/DadSueBlackWhite12252005.jpg

wfgodot
11-22-2009, 02:23 PM
After reading through the thread twice, I keep going back to the fact that the sheriff said he found and removed $740 from Mr. Neff's shirt pocket, and also said that this wasn't a robbery---that this was personal.

Whomever left that kind of money in a dead man's pocket had to have wanted it to be discovered when the body was found. And, though they chose to move the body from the bar, they did dump it in a strip pit where it was found days later---they were familiar with the place and that means they knew that the body would eventually be discovered.

They wanted it to be discovered. Just not immediately.

So what does this say? They bought themselves some time, yes, but also they wanted to make a $740 statement to others who were associates of either the murderer(s) or Mr. Neff, or both: this wasn't about money; money won't save you. (And therefore, watch what you say about not only the murder, but the events leading up to the murder---whatever it turns out to be that caused the murder.)

The caveat here is with OK LE. A big portion of the population, at least in eastern OK, does not trust their LE. So some have problems with believing information released by LE in the first place. And there's a long list of unsolved cases in this part of the state.

Okay, that's my two cents.

YellowDog
11-22-2009, 07:51 PM
After reading through the thread twice, I keep going back to the fact that the sheriff said he found and removed $740 from Mr. Neff's shirt pocket, and also said that this wasn't a robbery---that this was personal.

Whomever left that kind of money in a dead man's pocket had to have wanted it to be discovered when the body was found. And, though they chose to move the body from the bar, they did dump it in a strip pit where it was found days later---they were familiar with the place and that means they knew that the body would eventually be discovered.

They wanted it to be discovered. Just not immediately.

So what does this say? They bought themselves some time, yes, but also they wanted to make a $740 statement to others who were associates of either the murderer(s) or Mr. Neff, or both: this wasn't about money; money won't save you. (And therefore, watch what you say about not only the murder, but the events leading up to the murder---whatever it turns out to be that caused the murder.)

The caveat here is with OK LE. A big portion of the population, at least in eastern OK, does not trust their LE. So some have problems with believing information released by LE in the first place. And there's a long list of unsolved cases in this part of the state.

Okay, that's my two cents.

I doubt that the people who committed this murder even knew he had the money in his shirt pocket. Most people don't carry that kind of money loose in a shirt pocket. If they cleaned out his safe, they probably thought they had all the major cash.

wfgodot
11-22-2009, 08:37 PM
I doubt that the people who committed this murder even knew he had the money in his shirt pocket. Most people don't carry that kind of money loose in a shirt pocket. If they cleaned out his safe, they probably thought they had all the major cash.

Mr. Neff was evidently known for being a person who had money on his person at all times, willing to lend it to anyone he felt needed it, and was a good risk to pay it back (see post #102 ["he was an atm for many"], #170 ["he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much"] et al.). The crime appears to have been personal, and, if so, this would have been known by the person or persons who committed it.

Perhaps in some worlds people walk away from easily available cash, but, here in Oklahoma, they do not. As for the safe, your last sentence contains a big "if" and large "probably."

missingmydad
11-23-2009, 03:42 AM
I am goona answer the question about the directions to the bar. There is a road that leads from hwy 59 right beside the bar, around it and then goes up behind it, and will lead you to the Old Wister Hwy. Or you can pass the Old Wister Hwy and keep going about 1 more mile and go to the new hwy. If you hit the new hwy turn right then you just drive until you get to the bypass just a couple of minutes. Then hop on bypass going north and you could stay on it all the way to Pocola.

missingmydad
11-23-2009, 04:04 AM
did you mention earlier that some of the posters that had been put up around the area have been taken down?
Would there be any way you could find out who is taking down the posters? Perhaps have them in places where a security camera is near and could catch them on tape?
Has there been much news coverage done on the murder? Could you contact local/state news people to get more coverage and advertise the reward? Also, what about getting a tip line set up?

Vb

i think that since there are so many posters being taken down that it is just the teens or whatever that clean the windows. After awhile i guess they just get tired of cleaning around them. I bet they would not mind if it was their dad. I have talked with le about this issue and basically since they are doing us a favor by allowing us to hang posters, we cannot get mad when they take them down. Sad huh? I actually have been interviewed on the news 3 or 4 times. I call them every month and update and they come out and do a story. They called me last time since the fbi and us marshals entered into the case. The tip line is the sheriffs office and the osbi hotline. So i do not know what else to do on that. I sure wish nancy grace could catch wind of this story. I have emailed her and everyone else with an email address but it has to go through their legal department. So i guess it may take a while. If anyone out there has any connections with anyone let me know and i will give them the info they need to do they story, along with all the phone numbers to the osbi etc. So nancy grace, or diane sawyer, john walsh, if anyone of you out there are reading this please i am so serious, i am begging for help. Thank you and god bless each and every one of you that have taken your time to read this to help out for my dad. I can't thank you enough.

Debbie Miller
11-23-2009, 07:37 AM
If this was not premeditated then why would the killer already have a gun-with them-loaded and something to tie him up with or cover him with? this sounds planned to me.I liked the scenario of maybe dad noticed someone had broken into the bar and was going to confront them but would he have not told anyone? Wouldn't the le have found records if he had talked to someone suspicious. I still cannot believe that anyone could out wit him, he was just too smart, too careful, and too cautious. More than anyone I know, he was always aware of all his surroundings.
I honestly cannot come up with one good suspect. None of it make any sense. I know I always wonder if my kids and I are safe. Apparently they know dad, do they know us too? Will they kill again? Scary thought.....

As far as Premeditation, I say yes. I don't think your dad was going to confront someone about breaking into the bar, if someone broke into the bar, wouldn't LE have found that when looking for evidence when they came up on the crime scene?

Your dad talking to anyone suspicious, are you referring to on the phone or outside the establishment or inside in cameras view. I would only hope they have gone over both with a fine tooth comb. Hopefully the cameras had film and were turned on.

You say that your dad was cautious and aware of his surroundings, this kind of leads me to believe that the person responsible for taking your dad's life is someone he trusted and was comfortable around especially with the fact that there were no defense wounds.

Sometimes the most obvious is the least expected. I think you and LE needs to look at ones you least expect.

YellowDog
11-23-2009, 10:17 AM
Perhaps in some worlds people walk away from easily available cash, but, here in Oklahoma, they do not. As for the safe, your last sentence contains a big "if" and large "probably."


I am from Oklahoma and I have no problem walking away from easily available cash. You make it sound like everyone in the state of Oklahoma is a criminal and I find your statement to be ridiculous.

My last sentence did contain an "if" and a "probably" because I am only putting my thoughts out there. I, nor you, do not know what happened.