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LaWanda
11-30-2009, 06:01 PM
Old thread was up to 43 pages. Lets continue here. I have requested to close the other one.

Thanks!

Link to last thread:
Four People Murdered in VA College Town #5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

PAXIMUS
11-30-2009, 06:14 PM
First in and SouthernVAgirl you dont have to lurk, your contributions here are as important as anyone elses. Do your thing, the more the merrier and we all appreciate what you have to add!

blouAngel
11-30-2009, 06:33 PM
In this case, it's a holiday and everyone's doing it. Although, I will say that I don't go for anything like a fake hand hanging out of a trunk, and even the leg is pushing it a bit. I can handle a mummy for halloween, but not a baby's corpse. You may think that's splitting hairs, but in this case there are no hairs to split anyway because horrorcore is not in the gray area about violence and gore and mutilation. They are clear to the one side, as close to the real thing as you can get. Oh-oh!! Just fell off the edge: Sam.

I don't think we generally accept the "everyone's doing it" excuse when something is wrong. If something is OK when everyone is doing it, then why would it not be acceptable when only a few are doing it?

I think the feeling that they have found a crew that is different from most people, but much like themselves is what draws people to the horrorcore scene or any number of other underground scenes in the first place. Your revulsion only confirms that they are different and justifies their desire to cling to one another.

PAXIMUS
11-30-2009, 06:46 PM
I don't think we generally accept the "everyone's doing it" excuse when something is wrong. If something is OK when everyone is doing it, then why would it not be acceptable when only a few are doing it?

I think the feeling that they have found a crew that is different from most people, but much like themselves is what draws people to the horrorcore scene or any number of other underground scenes in the first place. Your revulsion only confirms that they are different and justifies their desire to cling to one another.

My general experience is that the many are usually wrong and the few are usually right.

So I do have to agree that the Nazi Nuremberg defense of "we were just our jobs," doesnt work, the fact that everyone is doing something is what usually tells me it is wrong as I tend to follow the trends of the minority myself.


This doesnt always hold true of course but it is a good rule of thumb for me.

I have always liked the irony of the non conforming conformists and thats what the HC kids remind me of.

dangrsmind
11-30-2009, 07:18 PM
In this case, it's a holiday and everyone's doing it. Although, I will say that I don't go for anything like a fake hand hanging out of a trunk, and even the leg is pushing it a bit. I can handle a mummy for halloween, but not a baby's corpse. You may think that's splitting hairs, but in this case there are no hairs to split anyway because horrorcore is not in the gray area about violence and gore and mutilation. They are clear to the one side, as close to the real thing as you can get. Oh-oh!! Just fell off the edge: Sam.

My point with all of this is that different people will set different limits and we can't assume we agree on them. I was at some folks house for Halloween that did their garage up as the "Dead Disco" they had a few severed legs, martini glasses filled with severed fingers, punch with eyeballs, etc. Also one animatronic dancing zombie.

In my opinion horrorcore is closest to reading a horror novel. Although there are of course music videos, and some of those are way way over the top, but with just listening to the music and rapping you have to imagine the situation in your mind much like reading a book.

Compare this aspect of horrorcore with ultra realistic slasher horror films like the Saw movies:

http://microwavepopcorn.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/saw.jpg

ziggy
11-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Just some random musings on the new thread...

The "Shout Outs" video with the juxtapositon of the fascinating looking dude, the street cred language and the lavendar room with the porcelain pink and white roses lamp in the background just tweaked my brain.

The "cute" little animals in the gory situations...I love the Tiger one cuz it reminds me of Tatiana who escaped her confines and hunted down one of the dudes that peeved her off and ate him :) (it would not be amusing if the guy hadn't been a total jerk, but it was a sort of natural justice and I can relate to that Tiger sometimes).

Toy axe or not, really? Would it matter if it were say... a toy penis or something? Just because it's not the real thing, is the WHOLE entire point to be lost?

I think I'd rather be known as Killa Satin :) Some people just can't resist a good pigeon hole to put themselves in for attention, notoriety and shock value...aka the HCR granny.

Ok, on with the show and thanks for coming folks.

tapu
11-30-2009, 08:35 PM
I'm going to change my killa cattle dog's name to Satan. AND walk around with a muzzle on him. 'Cause I am just that edgy.

dangrsmind
11-30-2009, 10:26 PM
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/11/l_23b1bb027bbf4d8fbe6c38f885b58d83.jpg

This was also in Killa Satan's pix.

PAXIMUS
11-30-2009, 10:26 PM
The Tapu cracks me up sometimes.

The Tapu.

annmarie62
12-01-2009, 02:14 AM
:40__s:
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/11/l_23b1bb027bbf4d8fbe6c38f885b58d83.jpg

This was also in Killa Satan's pix.

A baby's onesie decorated with upside=down crosses??? ABSOLUTELY. REVOLTING. ....have to wonder what's in the kid's bottles:

wadahoot
12-01-2009, 02:21 AM
I have always liked the irony of the non conforming conformists and thats what the HC kids remind me of.


I think it’s hysterical that ‘kids’ wishing to be unique and special individuals end up doing something like mega-piercing, or goth-style or HCR. Why? Because ‘everyone’ in their group does it, and they are no longer unique!

wadahoot
12-01-2009, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by ziggy
>>Good analogy - and thanks for the heads up...didn't know Elliot Smith had died<<

Andres said: Quote: >>Dude. 2003. Get with it, Ziggster. <<

For SoutherVAGirl and me .... "Dude. I don't have a clue who Elliot IS!"


:Banane09:

wadahoot
12-01-2009, 02:41 AM
as for tsimfukis. he's 16 and has Progeria ... the disease where a child ages all the way through life very quickly and dies at about age 13, although some make it to their early 20s. I guess Justin Tsimbidis is a disturbed kid, that knows he's dying every day ... I guess I'd have a he## of a lot of rage in me, too. Sad, sad, sad.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 03:52 AM
:40__s:

A baby's onesie decorated with upside=down crosses??? ABSOLUTELY. REVOLTING. ....have to wonder what's in the kid's bottles:

I guess they could say its the cross of St Peter but I doubt thats what they mean it to be.:crazy::loser:

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 03:52 AM
I think it’s hysterical that ‘kids’ wishing to be unique and special individuals end up doing something like mega-piercing, or goth-style or HCR. Why? Because ‘everyone’ in their group does it, and they are no longer unique!

Yea thats exactly what I am talking about, gotta love that irony!:crazy:

claudicici
12-01-2009, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by ziggy
>>Good analogy - and thanks for the heads up...didn't know Elliot Smith had died<<

Andres said: Quote: >>Dude. 2003. Get with it, Ziggster. <<

For SoutherVAGirl and me .... "Dude. I don't have a clue who Elliot IS!"


:Banane09:


wadahoot...you're just 4 letters away from woot !:crazy:

claudicici
12-01-2009, 05:14 AM
Yea thats exactly what I am talking about, gotta love that irony!:crazy:

i've heard that so many times before but i don't really get it....i don't think people are a certain way just to be different ,why would they do that?...people are a certain way and if other people share the way they are or what they like ,what's wrong with that?...I'm always happy if someone likes what i like but i really don't care either way....

claudicici
12-01-2009, 05:23 AM
My point with all of this is that different people will set different limits and we can't assume we agree on them. I was at some folks house for Halloween that did their garage up as the "Dead Disco" they had a few severed legs, martini glasses filled with severed fingers, punch with eyeballs, etc. Also one animatronic dancing zombie.

In my opinion horrorcore is closest to reading a horror novel. Although there are of course music videos, and some of those are way way over the top, but with just listening to the music and rapping you have to imagine the situation in your mind much like reading a book.

Compare this aspect of horrorcore with ultra realistic slasher horror films like the Saw movies:

http://microwavepopcorn.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/saw.jpg

I totally agree,even though you are using the term "some of them are way over the top"...in your opinion....again it's just a matter of opinion....
there are countless books written where the author uses "I" to tell the story but it's not things the author would actually do ,it's story telling,that's the same in music, "horrorcore" or whatever other genre,...
...and I'm also wondering why some people get so upset or repulsed about stuff that I like and I get repulsed by stuff other people like.....I guess it's like if you've never been close to something or experienced something you're not going to understand it,same with prejudism I guess.....or let's say people who share the same disease ,like cancer or something,it makes them feel better to get together and talk about their experiences,but people who never had it would be upset to sit around and talk about suffering and pain cos they never had to....

ziggy
12-01-2009, 05:45 AM
i've heard that so many times before but i don't really get it....i don't think people are a certain way just to be different ,why would they do that?...people are a certain way and if other people share the way they are or what they like ,what's wrong with that?...I'm always happy if someone likes what i like but i really don't care either way....

I think people now more than ever are looking for ANY way to be unique and different...like why my good friend Cindy who was Cindy for years and years had to become...Cyndi. Yeah, even just the weird, excuse me, "unique" spelling of names has been a quest for individuality.

I can totally see people getting into this underground,not consciously of course, for its sort of exclusivity. It makes them feel a part of something different, special, and makes others curious about them which gives them the attention they need.

Then the little unique groups all "conform" which is what they were trying to get away from in the beginning. Life is a fascinating cycle isn't it?

claudicici
12-01-2009, 05:52 AM
....but i think a lot of people are not consciously NOT trying to confirm...on the contrary ,they might try and fail....I don't think it's conforming if you find a group of people that get what you get....

claudicici
12-01-2009, 05:55 AM
oh,I just looked it up ,it has two meaning,that's why I didn't get it...

1 : to be similar or identical; also : to be in agreement or harmony —used with to or with <changes that conform with our plans>
2 a : to be obedient or compliant —usually used with to <conform to another's wishes> b : to act in accordance with prevailing standards or customs <the pressure to conform>
...I always thought of it as # 2 the negative meaning,being pressured or obediant....but if I think of it as the first meaning "to be in agreement or harmony" then yeah,they conform.....

claudicici
12-01-2009, 07:21 AM
I'm going to change my killa cattle dog's name to Satan. AND walk around with a muzzle on him. 'Cause I am just that edgy.

lol,I like your avitar...oh but I was going to comment about something you said on the other thread,when you talked about your background and how you were the first to go to college.I think that makes you extraordinary,it's awesome...but I also think the average person does not have enough confidence or strong will or determination to break a cycle,it just takes a lot.
Not making it doesn't mean someone is dumb or lazy.....

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 10:17 AM
oh,I just looked it up ,it has two meaning,that's why I didn't get it...

1 : to be similar or identical; also : to be in agreement or harmony —used with to or with <changes that conform with our plans>
2 a : to be obedient or compliant —usually used with to <conform to another's wishes> b : to act in accordance with prevailing standards or customs <the pressure to conform>
...I always thought of it as # 2 the negative meaning,being pressured or obediant....but if I think of it as the first meaning "to be in agreement or harmony" then yeah,they conform.....

I think alot of them are conformists even though they claim not to be, I have been 'hipster' for years before anyone knew what hipster was, meaning I liked to wear old black horn rim glasses and old welcome back kotter t shirts and ride a fixed gear bike but now every is in to that and I have to find a new way to dress because I dont want to be associated with a bunch of posers. Maybe Ill go preppy now.:crazy:

tapu
12-01-2009, 10:48 AM
Just don't go all camouflage! Everybody's doing that now, it seems. I saw a whole family the other day wearing camouflage, even the baby, in a little camouflage onesie. I was under the impression that they hadn't even planned it, necessarily.... :rolleyes:

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 10:56 AM
I think alot of them are conformists even though they claim not to be, I have been 'hipster' for years before anyone knew what hipster was, meaning I liked to wear old black horn rim glasses and old welcome back kotter t shirts and ride a fixed gear bike but now every is in to that and I have to find a new way to dress because I dont want to be associated with a bunch of posers. Maybe Ill go preppy now.:crazy:

Pax, did you ever hang out at the Zeitgeist in San Francisco and sneer at the non-hipsters that mistakenly entered?

I know people that refuse to go there because of the excess of hipsters, but I don't mind the sneers bc the drinks are strong and cheap.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 10:58 AM
....but i think a lot of people are not consciously NOT trying to confirm...on the contrary ,they might try and fail....I don't think it's conforming if you find a group of people that get what you get....

My wife tells the story of going to an amusement park in her youth and seeing a bunch of goth kids there all dressed in identical black shirts and pants and all wearing a button that said "f*ck conformity"...

Wes
12-01-2009, 11:03 AM
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/11/l_23b1bb027bbf4d8fbe6c38f885b58d83.jpg

This was also in Killa Satan's pix.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:05 AM
:40__s:

A baby's onesie decorated with upside=down crosses??? ABSOLUTELY. REVOLTING. ....have to wonder what's in the kid's bottles:

Would it be okay with you if the onesie just had one right side up cross on it? Or how about a big star of David?

They make these....

http://www.virtuousplanet.com/shops/userimages/00001/00000000138/productSmall/00000000000000062852_11.jpg

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:07 AM
Some people shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

Really?

You think the parents should be arrested and sterilized or imprisoned for having children just because of this onesie?

Be careful what you wish for.

Wes
12-01-2009, 11:09 AM
Really?

You think the parents should be arrested and sterilized or imprisoned for having children just because of this onesie?


No. Not really.

claudicici
12-01-2009, 11:09 AM
...i guess people do want acceptance,i'm sure sam was looking for that....i keep thinking it was more his sensitivities than anything else that made him snap....he was saving up money for months to go to va,he was planning to join the army afterwards,he was probably thinking he would meet his soulmate instead he walked into a world that was far out of his reach,something he would never belong to....i bet emma would have "grown" out of her "phase",she would have went to college and got married in a white gown....she seemed to be pretty spoiled.....I can just see sam raging against the whole situation,the beautiful kept house,people that probably spoke "eloquantly"...the whole nine yards,even now in that letter from jail he seems to look for belonging,a family .....i think he destroyed what he could never have...

claudicici
12-01-2009, 11:12 AM
Would it be okay with you if the onesie just had one right side up cross on it? Or how about a big star of David?

They make these....

http://www.virtuousplanet.com/shops/userimages/00001/00000000138/productSmall/00000000000000062852_11.jpg

Thank you ,dangr,I also saw one that said "I keep my guns and my bible you can have your change", on a BABY's onesie,I'm not kidding....

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:12 AM
No. Not really.

IMO it is worth remembering that there are places in the world where they actually would do something like that.

See http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615936,00.html

claudicici
12-01-2009, 11:16 AM
My wife tells the story of going to an amusement park in her youth and seeing a bunch of goth kids there all dressed in identical black shirts and pants and all wearing a button that said "f*ck conformity"...

lol,I was probably one of them....i should have looked that word up years ago,i honestly always thought conformity meant conforming to something you don't like just to fit in not just being the same.....

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:17 AM
Thank you ,dangr,I also saw one that said "I keep my guns and my bible you can have your change", on a BABY's onesie,I'm not kidding....

Well I don't agree with imposing any of my views political, religious, whatever, on my children. I wouldn't buy anything like this whether it was Christian or Jewish or Satanist.

But like a lot of things there are grey areas...is an image of Bob Marley religious? They make onesies with many musicians and so forth as well now.

smartie74
12-01-2009, 11:29 AM
Someone a while back was asking for an email for sam's attorney. This is the website for his attorney's firm and it is included at the end of his bio. This gives a little more info on the firm and its attorneys than the yellow page search.

http://www.bowenlawfirm.com/index.html

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 11:31 AM
Thank you ,dangr,I also saw one that said "I keep my guns and my bible you can have your change", on a BABY's onesie,I'm not kidding....

No doubt some of the Christians are just as nutty as the Satanists. I am Jewish and I see it in Judaism too, some of the more radical groups in Israel are just as fanatic if not more than any radical Islamic terrorist group.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:40 AM
Thank you ,dangr,I also saw one that said "I keep my guns and my bible you can have your change", on a BABY's onesie,I'm not kidding....

See I wouldn't dress a baby in that or in an Obama onesie either.

I also wouldn't take a child to a political rally, protest, or peace march.

Had that done to me in my youth and it was not good.

My dad is an avid Fox News watcher these days though so I am not sure that's better.

claudicici
12-01-2009, 11:45 AM
....when my daughter was a baby she did have a slayer onesie,but to me music is different from politic or religion,but again i guess it's just a matter of opinion

tapu
12-01-2009, 11:51 AM
I was always sort of unconsciously wary of the politicization of the baby, too. Like, I never paraded him around in a rainbow onesie. Not even in P-Town. Actually, though... that might be my instinct NOT to conform.



I did make him wear a mullet though, come to think of it.....

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:55 AM
....when my daughter was a baby she did have a slayer onesie,but to me music is different from politic or religion,but again i guess it's just a matter of opinion

I specifically mentioned Bob Marley because he was a Rastafarian and is considered to be a prophet of that religion by some.

I guess maybe Slayer is Satanic although I don't know if I would consider a Slayer logo a religious emblem.

hank
12-01-2009, 11:55 AM
....when my daughter was a baby she did have a slayer onesie,but to me music is different from politic or religion,but again i guess it's just a matter of opinion

I wish I had a slayer onesie, I would wear it right now!!

tapu
12-01-2009, 11:56 AM
I wish I had a slayer onesie, I would wear it right now!!

Okay, I literally LOL'd. Right here in the office. :)

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 12:03 PM
I was always sort of unconsciously wary of the politicization of the baby, too. Like, I never paraded him around in a rainbow onesie. Not even in P-Town. Actually, though... that might be my instinct NOT to conform.

My story is a bit different because it was in the context of other things that went beyond just being taken to a peace rally as a kid. I was in "religious" school at the time, which seemed to mostly consist of showing us Holocaust images and reading from Meyer Kahane's "Never Again". I never remeber God even being mentioned. I was eight or nine at this time.

My parents took me to a peace rally and march against the Vietnam war which ended with people being arrested and taken away in handcuffs in unmarked grey buses...

Scary **** for a little kid.

My sister and her partner recently took their son to an anti-prop 8 rally here in California and gave him a sign to carry in his stroller. He was 2 years old at the time. I didn't support the proposition, but you know, hire a sitter or something.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 12:15 PM
Id wear a Sex Pistols onesie if Tapu will get me one. SP onesie and combat boots, yea yea!

Wes
12-01-2009, 12:19 PM
No doubt some of the Christians are just as nutty as the Satanists.

I'm sure you mean 'minus the sacrificing of virgins and stuff'..right?

tapu
12-01-2009, 12:33 PM
Id wear a Sex Pistols onesie if Tapu will get me one. SP onesie and combat boots, yea yea!



Stop! Stop! I don't want to be picturing all you guys in onesies!!!

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm sure you mean 'minus the sacrificing of virgins and stuff'..right?

Well Christians do canabalize their god and drink his blood. I dont mean to be offensive there are many fine Christian people in the world but all religions have their zealots and radicals.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Stop! Stop! I don't want to be picturing all you guys in onesies!!!

True, youll start thinking we all look like Richard Simmons.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 12:51 PM
Well Christians do canabalize their god and drink his blood. I dont mean to be offensive there are many fine Christian people in the world but all religions have their zealots and radicals.

Many people have died in wars started by religious zealots of various flavors. Also, there was that good ole Spanish Inquisition.

Wes, the issue of ritual sacrifice is not as simple as you make it out to be here, and it is widely debated in modern day Satanism. Most Satanists that I have read do not sacrifice "virgins" except in the metaphorical sense.

There are some groups that have been tied to disappearances and possible ritual murders, i.e. the Order of Nine Angles, but most of the people that call themselves Satanists do not engage in such practices.

But then again LaVey stated that there were conditions under which human sacrifice was acceptable for example if the person to be sacrificed was annoying enough. Just one example of why I tell people to stay away from LaVey generally speaking....

FWIW.

See http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Satanism/00000016.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 12:54 PM
True, youll start thinking we all look like Richard Simmons.

A good friend of my wife's appeared at numerous happy hours around the city in a red Snuggie. He drew a pretty good crowd wherever he went and raised a fair bit of money for the Leukemia Society doing this.

Food for thought.

ericclimbs
12-01-2009, 01:03 PM
More baby clothes you can buy:

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a669/a669_thumb.jpg

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a289/a289_thumb.jpg

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a201/a201_thumb.jpg

Apparently you can dress up a baby any way you want.

AndresEscobar
12-01-2009, 01:06 PM
IMO it is worth remembering that there are places in the world where they actually would do something like that.

See http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615936,00.html

They tried doing it to felons in Oklahoma in the 40s.

AndresEscobar
12-01-2009, 01:08 PM
Someone a while back was asking for an email for sam's attorney. This is the website for his attorney's firm and it is included at the end of his bio. This gives a little more info on the firm and its attorneys than the yellow page search.

http://www.bowenlawfirm.com/index.html

I wouldn't email him. He's probably pretty busy.

nakedmanjoe
12-01-2009, 01:58 PM
Stop! Stop! I don't want to be picturing all you guys in onesies!!!

Don't worry. I don't wear anything...:behind:

ziggy
12-01-2009, 01:59 PM
Id wear a Sex Pistols onesie if Tapu will get me one. SP onesie and combat boots, yea yea!

I would love to see that! Now THAT would be a unique look...I'm likin' it.

However, I'm still stuck coveting your Welcome Back Kotter shirt.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 02:00 PM
Many people have died in wars started by religious zealots of various flavors. Also, there was that good ole Spanish Inquisition.

Wes, the issue of ritual sacrifice is not as simple as you make it out to be here, and it is widely debated in modern day Satanism. Most Satanists that I have read do not sacrifice "virgins" except in the metaphorical sense.

There are some groups that have been tied to disappearances and possible ritual murders, i.e. the Order of Nine Angles, but most of the people that call themselves Satanists do not engage in such practices.

But then again LaVey stated that there were conditions under which human sacrifice was acceptable for example if the person to be sacrificed was annoying enough. Just one example of why I tell people to stay away from LaVey generally speaking....

FWIW.

See http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Satanism/00000016.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles


Thats a great idea actually, sounds very comfortable also. A few years ago I went to Thailand to live as a Monk's Novice which is basically living as a Monk but you dont take the exact same amount of precepts but you shave the head and wear the robes etc and I have to say that was a very comfortable existence those saffron robes are very comfortable and its a really nice stress free life. If I werent married I would definitely become a Buddhist Monk for the rest of my life.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 02:06 PM
I would love to see that! Now THAT would be a unique look...I'm likin' it.

However, I'm still stuck coveting your Welcome Back Kotter shirt.

Its a cool one! I got it at a thrift store and it was like new but its one of the original 70s sweathog T shirts, if I find another one its yours!:crazy:

Farmvillian
12-01-2009, 02:15 PM
Well Christians do canabalize their god and drink his blood. I dont mean to be offensive there are many fine Christian people in the world but all religions have their zealots and radicals.

Does it scare you that people need a book or religion to be good? How come some people have to have a threat of lightning on them if they don't be nice? Shouldn't you be good anyway? Seems like they should make the right choice from the heart, not because of the God of choice. What if the Bible did not exist? Would all these people with no direction be out of control? Or would they listen to the heart and everything be fine?

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 02:27 PM
Does it scare you that people need a book or religion to be good? How come some people have to have a threat of lightning on them if they don't be nice? Shouldn't you be good anyway? Seems like they should make the right choice from the heart, not because of the God of choice. What if the Bible did not exist? Would all these people with no direction be out of control? Or would they listen to the heart and everything be fine?


Good questions. I have spent most of my life trying to find the source of evil in the world to no avail. I think in many cases religion may be more of a problem than a solution but if it helps someone then I am all for it. I know alot of recovering addicts who depend on the bible and a belief in a higher power to remain clean so if thats what works for them thats ok.

nakedmanjoe
12-01-2009, 03:17 PM
Does it scare you that people need a book or religion to be good? How come some people have to have a threat of lightning on them if they don't be nice? Shouldn't you be good anyway? Seems like they should make the right choice from the heart, not because of the God of choice. What if the Bible did not exist? Would all these people with no direction be out of control? Or would they listen to the heart and everything be fine?


Man I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to really go into depth with how I feel on this subject. My origins are from a small southern Baptist town and most of my friends and all of my immediate family are Christians. Some more religious than others. I lean more towards considering myself an Agnostic rather than an Atheist for a couple of reasons I won't go into here. I think some of the most generous and trustworthy people I know are old fashioned Christians. I always respect them and I never let anyone know my religious or political stance. When in Rome do as the Romans is certainly my mentality. I’m very happy go lucky and I want everyone to believe in what they need to as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else and it makes their life easier. If that’s believing in Allah ,the Holy Trinity, or whatever. I’m jealous because I can’t be at peace as easily as some religious people. But I also believe that organized religion has been one of if not the biggest cause of violence and murder in history. I can understand people having concerns with others who do not follow a religion which teaches morals and responsibilities. Some people reason that if people aren’t worried about any repercussions in an afterlife that they lack motivation to keep them from committing violent acts. With that being said I don't think having a "book" is going to keep anybody honest except for people who already conscious about how they already act. Hence I don't think that the Bible, Koran or any other book has truly changed a substantial percentage of people who wouldn't have cared otherwise about how they act, especially violent people like murderers, child molesters, armed robbers, etc.....I’m more conscious of violent people who do jump up and “find Jesus” all of a sudden. I don’t feel they’re always mentally stable. Just my humble opinion here of course. I'm glad I didn't really get started I could waste my whole day on this topic.

boygenius
12-01-2009, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE=ericclimbs;4507711]More baby clothes you can buy:

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a289/a289_thumb.jpg

QUOTE]

Now that's funny! And I would wear it.

nakedmanjoe
12-01-2009, 03:18 PM
Good questions. I have spent most of my life trying to find the source of evil in the world to no avail. I think in many cases religion may be more of a problem than a solution but if it helps someone then I am all for it. I know alot of recovering addicts who depend on the bible and a belief in a higher power to remain clean so if thats what works for them thats ok.

Good point. If a higher power helps someone through drugs or a difficult situation, so be it. Great for them

piXy
12-01-2009, 04:00 PM
Some people shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

Khemi is a good person and is no longer a Apostle or associated with anyone in SKR. From what i know she is a really good mother so please dont judge her on something she made for her baby a year ago <3

Wes
12-01-2009, 04:20 PM
Well Christians do canabalize their god and drink his blood. I dont mean to be offensive there are many fine Christian people in the world but all religions have their zealots and radicals.

Metaphorically

tapu
12-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Hey, ya know... I've never really gotten this.... Like, what DID Mel mean by calling herself "Free Abortions"? How does that fit into the whole world view or epistemology or metaphysics of it or whatever???

AndresEscobar
12-01-2009, 04:39 PM
Hey, ya know... I've never really gotten this.... Like, what DID Mel mean by calling herself "Free Abortions"? How does that fit into the whole world view or epistemology or metaphysics of it or whatever???

I think it meant that she was offering them, for free.

dnrslucky1
12-01-2009, 04:47 PM
I thought it was a sort of statement. Like she felt everyone was entitled to free abortions.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 04:48 PM
Hey, ya know... I've never really gotten this.... Like, what DID Mel mean by calling herself "Free Abortions"? How does that fit into the whole world view or epistemology or metaphysics of it or whatever???

An abortion is a murder of a true innocent. It is also something that would be very shocking or disturbing to a Christian person. See http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0040_Massacre_of_Innocenc.html

The name was likely chosen to be shocking in this way. However...

Recall also that Raz and SickTanick have aborted fetus images on the wall in their living room. And consider also that Razakel's MySpace page depicts a demoness ripping a fetus from her own womb (a "free" abortion) as well as a "dead" ragdoll.

tapu
12-01-2009, 05:00 PM
So... do Raz and Sick mean anything more by it, or is it just to be shocking?

I've got an idea forming in my head, more toward where dnrslucky is heading....

Like, that abortions should be free, as in widely available... but I can't get anywhere with it after that.

Ideas?

It's not going to be another one of these totally schitzo things where they go, oh, but we didn't mean really abort our own babies. ("Sam, what were you ****ing thinking?")




PiXy!! -- Yoo-hoo, I need you to weigh in here. What is "Free Abortions" all about? It has to be something....

tapu
12-01-2009, 05:28 PM
An abortion is a murder of a true innocent. It is also something that would be very shocking or disturbing to a Christian person. See http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0040_Massacre_of_Innocenc.html

The name was likely chosen to be shocking in this way. However...

Recall also that Raz and SickTanick have aborted fetus images on the wall in their living room. And consider also that Razakel's MySpace page depicts a demoness ripping a fetus from her own womb (a "free" abortion) as well as a "dead" ragdoll.




Dude, no way with that friggin link. How do you come up with this ****??

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 05:31 PM
So... do Raz and Sick mean anything more by it, or is it just to be shocking?

I've got an idea forming in my head, more toward where dnrslucky is heading....

Like, that abortions should be free, as in widely available... but I can't get anywhere with it after that.

Ideas?

It's not going to be another one of these totally schitzo things where they go, oh, but we didn't mean really abort our own babies. ("Sam, what were you ****ing thinking?")




PiXy!! -- Yoo-hoo, I need you to weigh in here. What is "Free Abortions" all about? It has to be something....

I'd be interested to hear what PiXy has to say here too. Of course sometimes these things mean more than they appear to at first glance. For example, Sam choosing the handle LilDemonDog.

I think from the perspective of a Satanist, a lot of people are born to suffer or are destined to be "sheep". These people might be better off never being born from this perspective, hence giving away "free abortions" would be viewed as a gift. Some might recall the Nazi's interest in eugenics, improvement of the species genetic mix, but here consider the Satanist's view that they (Satanists) are the next evolution of the human race. SickTanick explicitly states this in his music as one example.

In an interview in 1995 [Marilyn] Manson was asked the following: "...what are your thoughts on abortion?", to which he replied: "I think the problem that always arises with issues like abortion, between Pro-Choice and Pro-Life, nobody really wants to deal with the problem, and that's birth control. I think if more people concentrated on dealing with that - making birth control more of an issue - then you wouldn't have to deal with the idea of abortion. I don't think stupid people should breed, so in that sense, I'm pro-abortion." (An Interview with Marilyn Manson at the Capitol Ballroom, Washington, D.C., November 9, 1995). This view of Manson, that "stupid people" should not breed, and that some should be aborted, is certainly influenced by the Satanic philosophies of Anton Lavey. For example, Lavey does not think that all humans are equal either. He stated:

"I consider [helping the needy] a most ignoble endeavour...It would be most merciful to help them of the life they seem to hate so much. People should be happy I‘m not a humanitarian - or I‘d probably be the most diabolical mass murderer the world has ever known" (Barton, The Secret Life of a Satanist, p. 211. As quoted by Bob & Gretchen Passantino, Satanism, p. 74).

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/manson.htm

"Satanists are superior. The masses exist to serve. The life of one Satanist is worth the lives of a hundred thousand men."
--The Demonic Bible

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 05:40 PM
Dude, no way with that friggin link. How do you come up with this ****??

There is actually a whole subculture of people that believe abortion clinics are run by or widely infiltrated by Satanists, and this makes certain sense if you consider the illegality of human sacrifice.

It is illegal to kill people as part of a religious practice. However there are a few places in our society were killing is legal and so it would make sense for someone looking to engage in these ritual practices to work in one of them. Another such location BTW would be an execution chamber at a prison. Also the military.

FWIW.

piXy
12-01-2009, 06:04 PM
FreeAbortions name.... well
just what it says
lol
dont look too deep into it
*warning, dont look at this if ur offended easy about abortion*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1YvbXcTqc

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 06:06 PM
And of course... the mortuary.



(Purely as an aside, I loved 6 Feet Under.)



Oh, wait, never mind. You mean with killing as the goal. Not just the dead body. Got it. Duh.

Right. The point here would be to legally kill someone and then use the energy resulting as part of a ritual practice. Easier said than done of course, but I can't completely rule out the possibility either.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 06:13 PM
FreeAbortions name.... well
just what it says
lol
dont look too deep into it
*warning, dont look at this if ur offended easy about abortion*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1YvbXcTqc

So...

Even if Melanie didn't mean anything more by choosing this name than an attempt to shock her parents or whomever that doesn't mean that's all it meant in the wider context.

From SickTanick's Doctrines Part 1 "Deciples Rise":

"upon the mountain i stand, as i offer my hand, unto deciples
of the watch willing to make the final stand against the holy one
the nazerine the unborn child the ****in bastard of a thousand
priests the holiest of pedophiles, the prophecys have come
to pass in this revalation i am the prophet leading children cross
the nation in search of the newborn jesus the advasary holy
lie hes the living dead fetus and as the stars allign the blasphemer
is born and most innocent children shall be ripped and torn
and from the womb of a whore shall he be reborn and from
that womb shall his life no longer be mourned cause after one
final breathe the world will burn with eternal flame and
all deciples will be put into the book of dead names
so believe the word deciples cause the prophecy is here
inside the doctrines shall the nazerine dissapear
so go out dear wolves amoungst the sheep and kill thier newborn
sons until you slay the nazerine and at the left hand you will stand
before the first power and at the hour of arrival shall you all cower
your either with us or against us there is no in between
there is no evil in this world its just what you perceieve
so slay the nazerine now or live in peace my deciples
make a path for arrival of the beast"

Kano
12-01-2009, 06:19 PM
FreeAbortions name.... well
just what it says
lol
dont look too deep into it


Yay!! Exactly.. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into most of the SKR things. I for sure do not count these guys as some deep genius.

Take the background from Raz's page, wasnt that all done after the fact and just to capitalise on the murders?

SKR~Joining in on the ohh so great democratic state of capitalism.. Thats how underground we are!!

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 06:28 PM
Yay!! Exactly.. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into most of the SKR things. I for sure do not count these guys as some deep genius.

Take the background from Raz's page, wasnt that all done after the fact and just to capitalise on the murders?

SKR~Joining in on the ohh so great democratic state of capitalism.. Thats how underground we are!!

"wasn't that done after the fact and just to capitalize on the murders?"

I don't see how that's possible. That image was there before the girls were killed (as evidenced by it already being in Google's cache at that time) and the image's creation date is August 16th 2009.

Are we both talking about this image?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/382/razbanner2.jpg

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 06:35 PM
"wasn't that done after the fact and just to capitalize on the murders?"

I don't see how that's possible. That image was there before the girls were killed (as evidenced by it already being in Google's cache at that time) and the image's creation date is August 16th 2009.

Are we both talking about this image?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/382/razbanner2.jpg

That picture is sort of prophetic. You have a self abortion or FREE ABORTION (mel) taking place, a ragdoll (emma) and a female head (debra) and a male head (mark). Things that make you go hmmm.

Kano
12-01-2009, 06:40 PM
No, i seem to remember RAZ's page having a different background (seems like they redid most of the pages sam had origionaly done graphics for) and i can only get the google cache to go back a bit for the page... The background seems to over ride on the cache anyway so i am really not sure.. Maybe Pixy would know? Anyway thanks dangrs.

Kano
12-01-2009, 06:44 PM
Say i looked up my own myspace page in cached links, i'd have no background show up in the cached links (Sorry, i just tested this out) even though i havent bothered to update my myspace all summer long.. I suppose i could change the background and load the picks on my own database, Might be a dif outcome.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 06:49 PM
No, i seem to remember RAZ's page having a different background (seems like they redid most of the pages sam had origionaly done graphics for) and i can only get the google cache to go back a bit for the page... The background seems to over ride on the cache anyway so i am really not sure.. Maybe Pixy would know? Anyway thanks dangrs.

I'd be very interested to see an earlier version of her MySpace page if one exists somewhere out there in the aether...

Even so, the image was created a month before the murders so it couldn't have been made to capitalize on the murders unless they were planned in advance and known to the artist.

This is based on analyzing the EXIF information contained in the JPEG file on MySpace. It is possible to fake the EXIF information of course, but that takes some expertise that seems beyond the scope of what we are dealing with here. And again it would indicate some sort of deceptive intent since you can't accidentally alter this information in general.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 06:51 PM
That picture is sort of prophetic. You have a self abortion or FREE ABORTION (mel) taking place, a ragdoll (emma) and a female head (debra) and a male head (mark). Things that make you go hmmm.

That's what I thought too. There's also a lot of references to the number four in this image. Four people dead.

Did I ever mention that Crowley says the number four is associated with the scent of cedar? (Recalling that Humbaba was said to be the guardian of the sacred cedar forest).

What does it all mean? I have no idea.

ericclimbs
12-01-2009, 07:06 PM
FreeAbortions name.... well
just what it says
lol
dont look too deep into it
*warning, dont look at this if ur offended easy about abortion*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1YvbXcTqc

For me high school was the usual classic rock (and the not so usual like the very under-appreciated King Crimson), hard rock like Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, and Priest, that sort of thing. In college I added Slayer, Metallica, Testament, the heavier stuff, some Gangsta Rap and then, upon suddenly (hint hint) seeing things in a wider brighter light, I moved into mellow stuff like Reggae and the Grateful Dead. After that I was turned on to Punk and got into that for a long time eventually moving to Techno, Ambient, and such alternative bands as Modest Mouse and Built To Spill. My tastes run the eclectic gamut from very dark and brooding to spiritual and enlightened. I love all this stuff still to this day.
What I'm trying to say is, in following this discussion, I have never had the displeasure of having to hear such terrible music. I mean forget the lyrics (whether they are offensive to one or not) -- I'm just talking about those lame beats and obvious cheap computer synth generated music. Now any dork with a computer and a social networking site can make *****ty music and find plenty of other sad people to tell him its great. Do any of these kids know how to play an actual instrument????
Disclaimer: the above rant is, of course, just my opinion. If you dig the Horrorcore you have every right to tell me what I can do with my opinion. :talker:

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 07:16 PM
For me high school was the usual classic rock (and the not so usual like the very under-appreciated King Crimson), hard rock like Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, and Priest, that sort of thing. In college I added Slayer, Metallica, Testament, the heavier stuff, some Gangsta Rap and then, upon suddenly (hint hint) seeing things in a wider brighter light, I moved into mellow stuff like Reggae and the Grateful Dead. After that I was turned on to Punk and got into that for a long time eventually moving to Techno, Ambient, and such alternative bands as Modest Mouse and Built To Spill. My tastes run the eclectic gamut from very dark and brooding to spiritual and enlightened. I love all this stuff still to this day.
What I'm trying to say is, in following this discussion, I have never had the displeasure of having to hear such terrible music. I mean forget the lyrics (whether they are offensive to one or not) -- I'm just talking about those lame beats and obvious cheap computer synth generated music. Now any dork with a computer and a social networking site can make *****ty music and find plenty of other sad people to tell him its great. Do any of these kids know how to play an actual instrument????
Disclaimer: the above rant is, of course, just my opinion. If you dig the Horrorcore you have every right to tell me what I can do with my opinion. :talker:


An instrument? Lmao.

ericclimbs
12-01-2009, 07:24 PM
An instrument? Lmao.

I know right?! :p

Something with strings, valves, skins, reeds or other mouthpieces? They still make those things.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 07:50 PM
I know right?! :p

Something with strings, valves, skins, reeds or other mouthpieces? They still make those things.

I play my guitar for an hour every night for ****s and giggles, I am getting better but its just a stress reliever for me, something I enjoy whether I am good at it or not. I been learning to play marachi lately.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 07:58 PM
I know right?! :p

Something with strings, valves, skins, reeds or other mouthpieces? They still make those things.

Not all instruments belong in the symphony...

See http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/09/09/moldovers-syncomasher-at-maker-faire/

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 08:03 PM
For me high school was the usual classic rock (and the not so usual like the very under-appreciated King Crimson), hard rock like Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, and Priest, that sort of thing. In college I added Slayer, Metallica, Testament, the heavier stuff, some Gangsta Rap and then, upon suddenly (hint hint) seeing things in a wider brighter light, I moved into mellow stuff like Reggae and the Grateful Dead. After that I was turned on to Punk and got into that for a long time eventually moving to Techno, Ambient, and such alternative bands as Modest Mouse and Built To Spill. My tastes run the eclectic gamut from very dark and brooding to spiritual and enlightened. I love all this stuff still to this day.
What I'm trying to say is, in following this discussion, I have never had the displeasure of having to hear such terrible music. I mean forget the lyrics (whether they are offensive to one or not) -- I'm just talking about those lame beats and obvious cheap computer synth generated music. Now any dork with a computer and a social networking site can make *****ty music and find plenty of other sad people to tell him its great. Do any of these kids know how to play an actual instrument????
Disclaimer: the above rant is, of course, just my opinion. If you dig the Horrorcore you have every right to tell me what I can do with my opinion. :talker:

SickTanick's "official" bio mentions that he played guitar and other instruments. FWIW.

tapu
12-01-2009, 08:12 PM
FreeAbortions name.... well
just what it says
lol
dont look too deep into it
*warning, dont look at this if ur offended easy about abortion*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1YvbXcTqc



WHAT is THAT in AID of??? Is there really a call for that???

It sounds like Monty Python, but perverted. Shooo-eeee.....


Well, meaning aside, I think Mel made an unwise choice in that nickname. You can sort of see yourself sitting around using Sick and Ragdoll and Razakel in friendly conversation, but are you going to say, "Hey, want another Powerade there, Free Abortions?"

piXy
12-01-2009, 08:13 PM
No, i seem to remember RAZ's page having a different background (seems like they redid most of the pages sam had origionaly done graphics for) and i can only get the google cache to go back a bit for the page... The background seems to over ride on the cache anyway so i am really not sure.. Maybe Pixy would know? Anyway thanks dangrs.

Razakel does her own graphics for her and all of SKR's myspace pages. Sam did do and its still up www.skrwillrise.com
shes had that same page up since right before Femicide came out so i dont remember w hat she had up before. =(

piXy
12-01-2009, 08:14 PM
WHAT is THAT in AID of??? Is there really a call for that???

It sounds like Monty Python, but perverted. Shooo-eeee.....


Well, meaning aside, I think Mel made an unwise choice in that nickname. You can sort of see yourself sitting around using Sick and Ragdoll and Razakel in friendly conversation, but are you going to say, "Hey, want another Powerade there, Free Abortions?"
True Tapu lol but everyone i know just referred to her as Mel <3

tapu
12-01-2009, 08:18 PM
True Tapu lol but everyone i know just referred to her as Mel <3



Well, YEAH, I guess you would. ;)

Recovering-Lurker
12-01-2009, 08:26 PM
For me high school was the usual classic rock (and the not so usual like the very under-appreciated King Crimson), hard rock like Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, and Priest, that sort of thing. In college I added Slayer, Metallica, Testament, the heavier stuff, some Gangsta Rap and then, upon suddenly (hint hint) seeing things in a wider brighter light, I moved into mellow stuff like Reggae and the Grateful Dead. After that I was turned on to Punk and got into that for a long time eventually moving to Techno, Ambient, and such alternative bands as Modest Mouse and Built To Spill. My tastes run the eclectic gamut from very dark and brooding to spiritual and enlightened. I love all this stuff still to this day.
What I'm trying to say is, in following this discussion, I have never had the displeasure of having to hear such terrible music. I mean forget the lyrics (whether they are offensive to one or not) -- I'm just talking about those lame beats and obvious cheap computer synth generated music. Now any dork with a computer and a social networking site can make *****ty music and find plenty of other sad people to tell him its great. Do any of these kids know how to play an actual instrument????
Disclaimer: the above rant is, of course, just my opinion. If you dig the Horrorcore you have every right to tell me what I can do with my opinion. :talker:

No kidding. I love many types of music, but that is just a headache.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 08:29 PM
Razakel does her own graphics for her and all of SKR's myspace pages. Sam did do and its still up www.skrwillrise.com
shes had that same page up since right before Femicide came out so i dont remember w hat she had up before. =(

I read that she was a graphic artist somewhere so thanks for this confirmation.

I think that's pretty interesting in the context of this particular image given the murders, but since I couldn't be sure who made it I didn't want to attribute it to her mistakenly.

A professional graphic artist generally would know about the EXIF data and might know how to alter it too.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 08:30 PM
WHAT is THAT in AID of??? Is there really a call for that???

It sounds like Monty Python, but perverted. Shooo-eeee.....


Well, meaning aside, I think Mel made an unwise choice in that nickname. You can sort of see yourself sitting around using Sick and Ragdoll and Razakel in friendly conversation, but are you going to say, "Hey, want another Powerade there, Free Abortions?"

This is an outrageous insult to Monty Python. :furious:

southernvagirl
12-01-2009, 08:57 PM
I read so much trying to catch up with the threads this week-end, I don't remember whether or not the subject of Sam videoing the crime was bought up....After reading, someone (sick) had called police , giving the info from another person,,,I immediately thought he had sent live pics to this person....Now, after reading the resignation of syniister, with WIR, I feel more than ever syniister actually saw the crime scene live and maybe Sam even peppered the scene up by walking syniister through and doing even more stuff, if that is possible.....I don't believe syniisater would have believed Sam, if this had not happened.......What say you???? Also, I would like to tell everyone who puts up links ,,,,thank you for the warnings...Although, way back when,,I learned my lessen and do NOT open those links...Thanks just the same.

piXy
12-01-2009, 09:37 PM
I read that she was a graphic artist somewhere so thanks for this confirmation.

I think that's pretty interesting in the context of this particular image given the murders, but since I couldn't be sure who made it I didn't want to attribute it to her mistakenly.

A professional graphic artist generally would know about the EXIF data and might know how to alter it too.

onRaz;s cd Femicide, in the cover credits it says "Artwork done by Poltart and UAS"

Raz didnt do those graphics for that.
Im not sure if she had input into the design but im sure she did.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 09:49 PM
onRaz;s cd Femicide, in the cover credits it says "Artwork done by Poltart and UAS"

Raz didnt do those graphics for that.
Im not sure if she had input into the design but im sure she did.

PolTart: http://www.poltart.com/

UAS: http://www.myspace.com/undergroundartistservices

Seems like UAS is Guttamind and Razakel.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 09:54 PM
I read so much trying to catch up with the threads this week-end, I don't remember whether or not the subject of Sam videoing the crime was bought up....After reading, someone (sick) had called police , giving the info from another person,,,I immediately thought he had sent live pics to this person....Now, after reading the resignation of syniister, with WIR, I feel more than ever syniister actually saw the crime scene live and maybe Sam even peppered the scene up by walking syniister through and doing even more stuff, if that is possible.....I don't believe syniisater would have believed Sam, if this had not happened.......What say you???? Also, I would like to tell everyone who puts up links ,,,,thank you for the warnings...Although, way back when,,I learned my lessen and do NOT open those links...Thanks just the same.

We know the police collected various devices including portable data storage devices, but they haven't revealed what (if anything) they found on these.

Given that so many people in the horrorcore community were in disbelief that Sam committed these acts, it does seem plausible that the initial response would be that he was joking or that it was all part of some sort of elaborate prank. If so it also makes sense that he might have provided some evidence to prove his point.

As far as an actual real-time feed, this would be technically possible if there was a web camera around and they had a decent broadband connection to the house. For example he could have used USTREAM to do this.

However this is all speculation, there is no confrimed report of any images taken by Sam at the scene.

claudicici
12-01-2009, 10:11 PM
That picture is sort of prophetic. You have a self abortion or FREE ABORTION (mel) taking place, a ragdoll (emma) and a female head (debra) and a male head (mark). Things that make you go hmmm.

....I always liked this image and I can relate to it emotionally....i just wished it was done by a better artist...but if she did it herself it doesn't matter how good or bad the actual artwork is I think...to me I always saw it as her rising above a abuse,i saw it as empowerment....i like the ragdoll,to me it symbolises the little girl that was abused and hurt...the man and the woman i always assumed were the parents or whoever was behind the abuse....now she is the queen that rose above the situation....i never saw it as literally slaughtering people just as symbolic....with the music she makes now she has power ....i love to paint and i suck at it....but my paintings are bloody and gory and they just deal with things i feel inside,so yeah i can relate....it's interesting though to look at it in connection with the case but once again,i can't imagine sam looking at it that way and imitating art...but who knows?

claudicici
12-01-2009, 10:16 PM
....about the free abortion thing i relate to that too, of course free birth control would make more sense,i think it should be mandatory to hand that stuff out in middle school...there's a bunch of pregnant girls in my daughters school, a 13 year old just had a baby.....we're talking about middle school,not even high school....

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 10:28 PM
....I always liked this image and I can relate to it emotionally....i just wished it was done by a better artist...but if she did it herself it doesn't matter how good or bad the actual artwork is I think...to me I always saw it as her rising above a abuse,i saw it as empowerment....i like the ragdoll,to me it symbolises the little girl that was abused and hurt...the man and the woman i always assumed were the parents or whoever was behind the abuse....now she is the queen that rose above the situation....i never saw it as literally slaughtering people just as symbolic....with the music she makes now she has power ....i love to paint and i suck at it....but my paintings are bloody and gory and they just deal with things i feel inside,so yeah i can relate....it's interesting though to look at it in connection with the case but once again,i can't imagine sam looking at it that way and imitating art...but who knows?

I don't know. The image is pretty symbolic at least in hindsight.

Maybe these ideas just leak into our reality from somewhere else. The collective unconscious, the qlippoth aka "world of shells", the shared consensual hallucination, or whatever you want to call it. Or maybe not.

"Monsters from the id"

I don't know the answer, but I sure have a lot of questions.

PAXIMUS
12-01-2009, 11:05 PM
I don't know. The image is pretty symbolic at least in hindsight.

Maybe these ideas just leak into our reality from somewhere else. The collective unconscious, the qlippoth aka "world of shells", the shared consensual hallucination, or whatever you want to call it. Or maybe not.

"Monsters from the id"

I don't know the answer, but I sure have a lot of questions.

Synchronicity my friend, it is currently my new obsession, been researching it for about a year now and reading everything I can find on it.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Speaking of symbolism...

Some might recall this image from SickTanick's "In Tha Name Of" video that has the four ritual murders in it as well.

6502

For some ridiculous reason even after I figured out the 781 and the Zodiac killer symbol I was stumpted by the "WOT" at the bottom.

I now suspect this refers to the White Order of Thule which is/was an esoteric white supremacist religious group. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Order_of_Thule


Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

dangrsmind
12-01-2009, 11:12 PM
Synchronicity my friend, it is currently my new obsession, been researching it for about a year now and reading everything I can find on it.

I've been designing a synchronicity amplifier. Believe it or not.

piXy
12-01-2009, 11:25 PM
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/382/razbanner2.jpg

Pretty sure thats a Raz VooDoo doll not a ragdoll

claudicici
12-01-2009, 11:54 PM
Speaking of symbolism...

Some might recall this image from SickTanick's "In Tha Name Of" video that has the four ritual murders in it as well.

6502

For some ridiculous reason even after I figured out the 781 and the Zodiac killer symbol I was stumpted by the "WOT" at the bottom.

I now suspect this refers to the White Order of Thule which is/was an esoteric white supremacist religious group. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Order_of_Thule


Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.Allied Union, Thule Gesellschaft and the Vril Society@@AMEPARAM@@/docinfo/18930238?access_key=key-17595fe5n00b84zrxp0d@@AMEPARAM@@18930238@@AMEPARAM @@key-17595fe5n00b84zrxp0d

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Pretty sure thats a Raz VooDoo doll not a ragdoll

Why?

I know of no voodoo practice where the practitioner makes a doll representing themselves and then "injures" the doll. Some dolls can be used for healing purposes but one wouldn't stick pins into the doll for this purpose as I understand it.

The point of making a poppet or doll of this sort is to establish a sympathetic relationship with the target sometimes called a "linkage". The idea is that while the linkage is operational whatever happens to the doll also happens to the target. For example you might anoint a doll with "love oil" or burn it over a candle. The effects on the target would in theory differ substantially depending on which of these things you did.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:11 AM
claudicici, exactly.

BTW did I mention that I studied in the Gelug (yellow hat) school of Tibetan Buddhism? Indeed I did.

claudicici
12-02-2009, 12:23 AM
claudicici, exactly.

BTW did I mention that I studied in the Gelug (yellow hat) school of Tibetan Buddhism? Indeed I did.

yes you did,but i did not get it then.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 12:27 AM
Vril is one of my favorite topics, the person who founded Yale's Skull and Bones society of which most of the Bush family are members of, went to Germany to study Vril so that he could model the S and B after it when he returned. It has been suggested that Hitler was a Vril but there is only circumstantial evidence to show this.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 12:29 AM
claudicici, exactly.

BTW did I mention that I studied in the Gelug (yellow hat) school of Tibetan Buddhism? Indeed I did.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Tsongkhapa.Kumbum.jpg/389px-Tsongkhapa.Kumbum.jpg

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 12:33 AM
Hey DM there is a good question over at the Alyssa Bustamante thread for you, come on over and answer it if youd like lol


here it is, andeasescobar and i been over there alot


Been reading along, with little time to spare..but can so can some one 'splain to me how the Raver's, the Emo's, amd the Juggalettes/Jugalloes differ?

I'm trying to seperate these groups, into either movements, scenes, temporary insanity, music types, and so on... Techno, ICP, My Chemical Romance.. Heck I think these groups are all interchangable for how that person feel that day..

One thing I do get, is that in every group, there are the hardcore peeps and the posers and the wannabe follower's.

I thank my lucky stars everyday that my 2 young-uns weren't of the computer age, just yet. Wow, do I feel like I dodged a bullet!


Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #12 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 12:40 AM
Hey DM there is a good question over at the Alyssa Bustamante thread for you, come on over and answer it if youd like lol


here it is, andeasescobar and i been over there alot


Been reading along, with little time to spare..but can so can some one 'splain to me how the Raver's, the Emo's, amd the Juggalettes/Jugalloes differ?

I'm trying to seperate these groups, into either movements, scenes, temporary insanity, music types, and so on... Techno, ICP, My Chemical Romance.. Heck I think these groups are all interchangable for how that person feel that day..

One thing I do get, is that in every group, there are the hardcore peeps and the posers and the wannabe follower's.

I thank my lucky stars everyday that my 2 young-uns weren't of the computer age, just yet. Wow, do I feel like I dodged a bullet!


Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #12 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4511043#post4511043)

Oh man, we're unleashing DM on that thread!!!!

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:41 AM
"They don't call me Ms. Abortions for nothin, so watch out *****es, your unborn babies is what I'm wantin."

+I'm Melanie.
AKA "That Free Abortions chick."


SKR FOR LIFE
Forever wicked I kick it.

+I am the biggest Green Day fanatic you'll ever meet.

+I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY MESSAGES THAT TELL ME IM HOT CUTE OR SEXY, OR SAY WHATS UP. Don't waste your time!

+My beliefs are that of LaVeyan Satanism.

+I'm NOT a juggalette. To be honest I can't stand ICP.

+If you're a lame juggalo that I DON'T know, and no intentions of talking to me, DON'T add me. I WILL deny you.

+My heart belongs to a U.S. Marine.

+I'm 18 :)

+I despise the rain and depressing things.

+I have alot of pajamas.

+I have very high self esteem.

+I carry alot of hate on my shoulders, many things annoy me, but I never show it.

+I smoke cigarettes and consume alcohol.

+McDonalds, cigarettes, and coffee keep me alive.

+I like to write, read, draw and learn things.

+One word: METAL.

+I love my parents more than anything.

+I have an obsession with paper.

+I'm a southern girl, from Louisville, Kentucky.

+I have a southern accent. wee.

+I still listen to Backstreet Boys.

+My favorite color is lavender.

+I have the biggest soft spot for all animals. I don't kill spiders or bugs.

+Almost all of my friends are guys.

+I hate ugly people.

From Melanie Wells' Vampire Freaks page. On this page she also lists "Nazism" as one of her interests.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:46 AM
Vril is one of my favorite topics, the person who founded Yale's Skull and Bones society of which most of the Bush family are members of, went to Germany to study Vril so that he could model the S and B after it when he returned. It has been suggested that Hitler was a Vril but there is only circumstantial evidence to show this.

Apparently the Longwood secret society Chi had an evil or mischievous offshoot at one point called "Red Chi" that used the red Skull and Bones as their symbol.

Chi as exemplified in the form of the Chi-Rho is a symbol of the cross. Those "scary" Chi-burings take on a new meaning in this light.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:48 AM
Not sure I need a new crime story to follow though...

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 12:53 AM
Not sure I need a new crime story to follow though...

Yeah, the AB case is much more . . . . difficult.

claudicici
12-02-2009, 12:55 AM
So...

Even if Melanie didn't mean anything more by choosing this name than an attempt to shock her parents or whomever that doesn't mean that's all it meant in the wider context.

From SickTanick's Doctrines Part 1 "Deciples Rise":

"upon the mountain i stand, as i offer my hand, unto deciples
of the watch willing to make the final stand against the holy one
the nazerine the unborn child the ****in bastard of a thousand
priests the holiest of pedophiles, the prophecys have come
to pass in this revalation i am the prophet leading children cross
the nation in search of the newborn jesus the advasary holy
lie hes the living dead fetus and as the stars allign the blasphemer
is born and most innocent children shall be ripped and torn
and from the womb of a whore shall he be reborn and from
that womb shall his life no longer be mourned cause after one
final breathe the world will burn with eternal flame and
all deciples will be put into the book of dead names
so believe the word deciples cause the prophecy is here
inside the doctrines shall the nazerine dissapear
so go out dear wolves amoungst the sheep and kill thier newborn
sons until you slay the nazerine and at the left hand you will stand
before the first power and at the hour of arrival shall you all cower
your either with us or against us there is no in between
there is no evil in this world its just what you perceieve
so slay the nazerine now or live in peace my deciples
make a path for arrival of the beast"

Marilyn manson "Antichrist Superstar"
you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
I shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am I anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things (chorus)
the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

claudicici
12-02-2009, 01:00 AM
Vril is one of my favorite topics, the person who founded Yale's Skull and Bones society of which most of the Bush family are members of, went to Germany to study Vril so that he could model the S and B after it when he returned. It has been suggested that Hitler was a Vril but there is only circumstantial evidence to show this.

...this stuff is insane,so many things are running through my head...i knew i never cared much for any of that family,but omg....

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 01:29 AM
One thing that ravers, emo kids, and even juggalettes seem to have in common is "scene hair".

OMFG

http://i33.piczo.com/view/4/b/t/k/d/r/z/5/f/u/y/x/img/i312725921_39005_5.jpg

blouAngel
12-02-2009, 01:51 AM
Apparently the Longwood secret society Chi had an evil or mischievous offshoot at one point called "Red Chi" that used the red Skull and Bones as their symbol.

Chi as exemplified in the form of the Chi-Rho is a symbol of the cross. Those "scary" Chi-burings take on a new meaning in this light.

I'm sure a lot of nice people go to Longwood. I also think there are many good reasons for choosing to go to a small school in a small town, but really, Longwood isn't where the powerful congregate or send their kids even. If there is a THEY who want to shake us off of their tail, either they've been brilliant in hiding away for so long in Farmville, or this is exactly what THEY would want, people being misdirected as usual.

Just for kicks, take a look at these links. Read as much as you would like, but do look at the list of notable alumni from each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwood_University
Notable alumni: A couple of lame pop musicians, a few sports figures and a noted activist in the Farmville area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_and_Lee_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia
Notable alumni: A very long list of people with HUGE influence on American society from politics, to banking, to major media.

Washington and Lee has links to both of those men(W and L), who have various other interesting ties between them. Lee (Confederate general you will recall) is practically regarded as a god and even his freaking horse has a shrine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse) Want to find some weird secret society stuff, those schools are where it is in Virginia. VMI, which is right next to W&L, so close in fact that you might not know you have walked from one to the other, bans secret societies, which probably do exist as actual secret societies rather than play groups like Longwood has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University
The alumni info isn't so good for those schools, but they are all over politics, including many who served the last Bush administration.

No telling what happens in those places, but I'd personally be much more frightened of a secret society at either one of them than another place in the country. From the wikipedia article "According to Regent, the school seeks students who are "dedicated to becoming Christian leaders who will change the world for Christ" and want "to receive a legal education integrated with Christian principles."" Both are connected to media empires and Liberty has connections to Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

Bob McDonnell, who I'm sad to say is my governor elect has a master's degree from Regent. His master's thesis was very controversial during the recent election, but he won anyway. One last wikipedia link. Read about his thesis here if interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_McDonnell

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 01:52 AM
Marilyn manson "Antichrist Superstar"
you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
I shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am I anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things (chorus)
the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

I previously linked to this, but if you haven't checked it out you might find this amazing site on Marilyn Manson's occult and Nazi symbolism interesting:

http://www.nachtkabarett.com

ericclimbs
12-02-2009, 02:20 AM
I'm sure a lot of nice people go to Longwood. I also think there are many good reasons for choosing to go to a small school in a small town, but really, Longwood isn't where the powerful congregate or send their kids even. If there is a THEY who want to shake us off of their tail, either they've been brilliant in hiding away for so long in Farmville, or this is exactly what THEY would want, people being misdirected as usual.

Just for kicks, take a look at these links. Read as much as you would like, but do look at the list of notable alumni from each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwood_University
Notable alumni: A couple of lame pop musicians, a few sports figures and a noted activist in the Farmville area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_and_Lee_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia
Notable alumni: A very long list of people with HUGE influence on American society from politics, to banking, to major media.

Washington and Lee has links to both of those men(W and L), who have various other interesting ties between them. Lee (Confederate general you will recall) is practically regarded as a god and even his freaking horse has a shrine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse) Want to find some weird secret society stuff, those schools are where it is in Virginia. VMI, which is right next to W&L, so close in fact that you might not know you have walked from one to the other, bans secret societies, which probably do exist as actual secret societies rather than play groups like Longwood has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University
The alumni info isn't so good for those schools, but they are all over politics, including many who served the last Bush administration.

No telling what happens in those places, but I'd personally be much more frightened of a secret society at either one of them than another place in the country. From the wikipedia article "According to Regent, the school seeks students who are "dedicated to becoming Christian leaders who will change the world for Christ" and want "to receive a legal education integrated with Christian principles."" Both are connected to media empires and Liberty has connections to Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

Bob McDonnell, who I'm sad to say is my governor elect has a master's degree from Regent. His master's thesis was very controversial during the recent election, but he won anyway. One last wikipedia link. Read about his thesis here if interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_McDonnell

This info is extremely dated, as I entered college in the Fall of 1987, but, as I recall from personal experience the most prominent schools, in Virginia anyway, were UVA, Virginia Tech, and James Madison. When I applied to four different universities Longwood wasn't even on the radar though that certainly may have changed since then. VMI is a military school which wasn't under my consideration. I ended up attending James Madison and if there were ever any secret societies there I never found about them.

The first few years I was too busy skipping class and banging my head to Mercyful Fate and screaming "Natas Voli," (in a low growling voice, of course) with my friends in hope to disturb anyone within earshot. We were doing the young, immature, shock value thing with stuff like this and playing the Butthole Surfers, at earsplitting levels, to creep out the maid staff. The last thing we ever were, even remotely, were Satanists -- it was all typical rebelliousness. I think, like the backgrounds of some of us here, this goes back to how, hopefully, most of these Horrorcore kids will grow out of the whole "image" thing even if they continue to like the music as they mature into adulthood. Indeed much like most of the musicians themselves.

Not that I doubt some folks in the scene may take this stuff very seriously. I just believe it is probably a minority of them.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 02:22 AM
I'm sure a lot of nice people go to Longwood. I also think there are many good reasons for choosing to go to a small school in a small town, but really, Longwood isn't where the powerful congregate or send their kids even. If there is a THEY who want to shake us off of their tail, either they've been brilliant in hiding away for so long in Farmville, or this is exactly what THEY would want, people being misdirected as usual.

Just for kicks, take a look at these links. Read as much as you would like, but do look at the list of notable alumni from each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwood_University
Notable alumni: A couple of lame pop musicians, a few sports figures and a noted activist in the Farmville area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_and_Lee_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia
Notable alumni: A very long list of people with HUGE influence on American society from politics, to banking, to major media.

Washington and Lee has links to both of those men(W and L), who have various other interesting ties between them. Lee (Confederate general you will recall) is practically regarded as a god and even his freaking horse has a shrine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse) Want to find some weird secret society stuff, those schools are where it is in Virginia. VMI, which is right next to W&L, so close in fact that you might not know you have walked from one to the other, bans secret societies, which probably do exist as actual secret societies rather than play groups like Longwood has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University
The alumni info isn't so good for those schools, but they are all over politics, including many who served the last Bush administration.

No telling what happens in those places, but I'd personally be much more frightened of a secret society at either one of them than another place in the country. From the wikipedia article "According to Regent, the school seeks students who are "dedicated to becoming Christian leaders who will change the world for Christ" and want "to receive a legal education integrated with Christian principles."" Both are connected to media empires and Liberty has connections to Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

Bob McDonnell, who I'm sad to say is my governor elect has a master's degree from Regent. His master's thesis was very controversial during the recent election, but he won anyway. One last wikipedia link. Read about his thesis here if interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_McDonnell

I'm not trying to link Longwood's secret societies to the famous Yale Skull and Bones or other such organizations that may or may not control the world.

I'm just saying this organization is evoking this same imagery. The Skull and Bones symbol was also used by the Nazis. Why?

What I am saying is simply this. There are a lot of different people around this crime employing occult references, Masonic references, and death imagery, and interestingly they aren't all horrorcore artists.

The Chi robes are blue and white, the same colors as worn by the KKK
The letter Chi represents the cross and the annual Chi burning is therefore a symbolic "cross burning"
The "Chi walk" is a simulated death ritual with the walkers being hooded with eyes covered as if being led to the gallows
The Chi symbol is a sunrise over Solomon's temple a Masonic reference
Chi used to use secret tunnels to travel unseen around the campus

Kano
12-02-2009, 02:22 AM
I didnt know we knew when the pic from raz's site was made? Interesting if it was a month before..

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 02:27 AM
I didnt know we knew when the pic from raz's site was made? Interesting if it was a month before..

You can tell the date of creation by examining the EXIF data (metadata) which is contained in the image file. There are downloadable products that will do this as well as a few online sites. In some cases this information can also be used to confirm the machine the file originated on, what tools were used to generate the image, etc.

e.g. http://regex.info/exif.cgi?url=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/382/razbanner2.jpg

Create Date: 2009:08:16 17:56:58-07:00

ericclimbs
12-02-2009, 02:31 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University
The alumni info isn't so good for those schools, but they are all over politics, including many who served the last Bush administration.



Also, piggybacking on Blou, if you didn't check out the links, Liberty and Regent are Fundamentalist Christian Schools. The former created by Jerry Falwell and, the latter, by Pat Robertson. Regent was originally named The Christian Broadcasting Network University (is it just me or is that. . .scary??).

blouAngel
12-02-2009, 02:41 AM
I'm not trying to link Longwood's secret societies to the famous Yale Skull and Bones or other such organizations that may or may not control the world.

I'm just saying this organization is evoking this same imagery. The Skull and Bones symbol was also used by the Nazis. Why?

What I am saying is simply this. There are a lot of different people around this crime employing occult references, Masonic references, and death imagery, and interestingly they aren't all horrorcore artists.

The Chi robes are blue and white, the same colors as worn by the KKK
The letter Chi represents the cross and the annual Chi burning is therefore a symbolic "cross burning"
The "Chi walk" is a simulated death ritual with the walkers being hooded with eyes covered as if being led to the gallows
The Chi symbol is a sunrise over Solomon's temple a Masonic reference
Chi used to use secret tunnels to travel unseen around the campus

I'm afraid of opening up a huge ("whole n'uther" as my least favorite neologism would have it) diversion by throwing semiotics into the discussion, but symbols are generally regarded as having no intrinsic meaning. They represent whatever meaning there is/was a need to symbolize in any given context. Use of pre-existing signs does not necessarily mean that a pre-existing meaning remained with it any more than similarity of form means a similarity of meaning. (two, to, too)

From Daniel Chandler's "Semiotics for Beginners"
Saussure argued that signs only make sense as part of a formal, generalized and abstract system. His conception of meaning was purely structural and relational rather than referential: primacy is given to relationships rather than to things (the meaning of signs was seen as lying in their systematic relation to each other rather than deriving from any inherent features of signifiers or any reference to material things). Saussure did not define signs in terms of some 'essential' or intrinsic nature. For Saussure, signs refer primarily to each other. Within the language system, 'everything depends on relations' (Saussure 1983, 121; Saussure 1974, 122). No sign makes sense on its own but only in relation to other signs. Both signifier and signified are purely relational entities (Saussure 1983, 118; Saussure 1974, 120). This notion can be hard to understand since we may feel that an individual word such as 'tree' does have some meaning for us, but its meaning depends on its context in relation to the other words with which it is used.
http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem02.html

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 03:20 AM
I'm afraid of opening up a huge ("whole n'uther" as my least favorite neologism would have it) diversion by throwing semiotics into the discussion, but symbols are generally regarded as having no intrinsic meaning. They represent whatever meaning there is/was a need to symbolize in any given context. Use of pre-existing signs does not necessarily mean that a pre-existing meaning remained with it any more than similarity of form means a similarity of meaning. (two, to, too)

From Daniel Chandler's "Semiotics for Beginners"
Saussure argued that signs only make sense as part of a formal, generalized and abstract system. His conception of meaning was purely structural and relational rather than referential: primacy is given to relationships rather than to things (the meaning of signs was seen as lying in their systematic relation to each other rather than deriving from any inherent features of signifiers or any reference to material things). Saussure did not define signs in terms of some 'essential' or intrinsic nature. For Saussure, signs refer primarily to each other. Within the language system, 'everything depends on relations' (Saussure 1983, 121; Saussure 1974, 122). No sign makes sense on its own but only in relation to other signs. Both signifier and signified are purely relational entities (Saussure 1983, 118; Saussure 1974, 120). This notion can be hard to understand since we may feel that an individual word such as 'tree' does have some meaning for us, but its meaning depends on its context in relation to the other words with which it is used.
http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem02.html

I don't contest the idea that few if any of the modern participants in these rituals understand the original intention and meaning of the various symbols employed.

tapu
12-02-2009, 07:09 AM
I don't contest the idea that few if any of the modern participants in these rituals understand the original intention and meaning of the various symbols employed.



So... Sicktanick just copied some pretty hieroglyphics?

(if this is just stupid, feel free to tell me. it's early, even in maine....)

Sally Trueheart
12-02-2009, 10:22 AM
Been reading along, with little time to spare..but can so can some one 'splain to me how the Raver's, the Emo's, amd the Juggalettes/Jugalloes differ?-- Paximus

Raver-- Alcohol shunned for the most part. Ecstatic dancing for hours on end provided by djs. Music is continuous, very positive and extremely loud. Energy drinks, Ecstacy drug of choice. Major danger: dancing too much, sending electrolytes out of whack by too much dancing/ water, and of course hearing damage. Frequent Ecstacy use may lead to depression eventually. Typical raver wears clothing all colors of the rainbow, wide legged pants, giant platform shoes, and a pacifier on a necklace. More commonly people wear silly costume- like accessories such as a hat with neon feather trim. Sometimes candy necklaces around the neck. This may be connected to the strichhanine in the drugs that causes them to grind their teeth. Raves are pretty expensive, complicated to find, and requiring a long time commitment (dance for 8 plus hours, then sleep the day away).

Emos-- A term that has a tinge of derision-- "he's/ she's so emo." May be a short term identity. Weepy, sad, tragic, sensitive, depressed, etc. Boys are frequently emo, unlike in the Goth scene which was mainly girls. People dress fairly conventionally but in dark colors, in contrast to the Goth scene of the 90's which was referencing victoriana- lace, satin, velvet, bodices, etc. Art making and Singing valued.

Juggalettes/ Juggalloes- Fans of Insane Clown Posse. This is new to me too.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 10:26 AM
So... Sicktanick just copied some pretty hieroglyphics?

(if this is just stupid, feel free to tell me. it's early, even in maine....)

No. SickTanick knows exactly what he is doing.

I was referring here to the students participating in Longwood's secret societies.

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Also, piggybacking on Blou, if you didn't check out the links, Liberty and Regent are Fundamentalist Christian Schools. The former created by Jerry Falwell and, the latter, by Pat Robertson. Regent was originally named The Christian Broadcasting Network University (is it just me or is that. . .scary??).

No, it's scary.

Also, Jason Mraz went to Longmont o_0 . Burn his records! (Seriously, he's terrible.)

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Been reading along, with little time to spare..but can so can some one 'splain to me how the Raver's, the Emo's, amd the Juggalettes/Jugalloes differ?-- Paximus

Raver-- Alcohol shunned for the most part. Ecstatic dancing for hours on end provided by djs. Music is continuous, very positive and extremely loud. Energy drinks, Ecstacy drug of choice. Major danger: dancing too much, sending electrolytes out of whack by too much dancing/ water, and of course hearing damage. Frequent Ecstacy use may lead to depression eventually. Typical raver wears clothing all colors of the rainbow, wide legged pants, giant platform shoes, and a pacifier on a necklace. More commonly people wear silly costume- like accessories such as a hat with neon feather trim. Sometimes candy necklaces around the neck. This may be connected to the strichhanine in the drugs that causes them to grind their teeth. Raves are pretty expensive, complicated to find, and requiring a long time commitment (dance for 8 plus hours, then sleep the day away).

Emos-- A term that has a tinge of derision-- "he's/ she's so emo." May be a short term identity. Weepy, sad, tragic, sensitive, depressed, etc. Boys are frequently emo, unlike in the Goth scene which was mainly girls. People dress fairly conventionally but in dark colors, in contrast to the Goth scene of the 90's which was referencing victoriana- lace, satin, velvet, bodices, etc. Art making and Singing valued.

Juggalettes/ Juggalloes- Fans of Insane Clown Posse. This is new to me too.

Emo kids listen to specific bands too. Weezer, My Chemical Romance, and many more...I don't follow this very much.

Identifying characteristics:

Ravers: "candy", phat pants (old school), the "raver heart", furry leggings, neon fishnet stockings, glow sticks, etc. See also "prostitots"

Emo: black hair hanging across the face, depression, whining, all black clothes

Jugallos/Jugallettes: clown make up, Hatchet man necklace or shirts, "woop woop"

All three groups like to get wasted. And alcohol is much more common at raves now than it used to be for various reasons.

That bit about strychnine in "raver drugs" made me laugh. This is not true, "gurning" is a side effect of the drug itself. Also very few people dance for "8 hours". A typical party starts at 10PM and very very few of them go until 6AM. I don't understand the bit about raves being expensive. Most parties are free or less than $20. If your raves are "expensive" you are doing it wrong.

Also it used to be true that raves were "hard to find" because they were held at secret and illegal locations. This is not true so much anymore, although here in San Francisco due to some recent aggressive enforcement this idea is making a big comeback. The last two "raves" I went to were at well known art warehouses that have had many many parties in them. These locations are the opposite of hard to find, everyone knows where they are, and the hosts often provide shuttle bus services to the location from a nearby parking site.

It might be worth differentiating warehouse parties like this from "renegades" which are generally held outdoors at a location which is revealed only at the last minute to avoid detection.

ETA: BTW "candy" isn't really candy, it is plastic jewelry made by kids in the raver subculture known as "candy kids". People give this away at parties and the most prized candy are not the ones you make yourself but the ones people give you.

PLUR

tapu
12-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Well. I sure have a lot of things swirling in my head about that, esp regarding the temporal component signification can have but I don't have the facility with these concepts that some of you do at present. Interesting, though.... I may pick up the Chandler. Is that a good idea, blou?




[the tapu ponders] :waitasec:

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 11:09 AM
I'm going to disagree with some of the definition of "emo" here. I will come out of the closet to say that in my late high school and early college years I may have dressed in a style that might have been interpreted as emoish, though I considered myself indie.

Generally, the idea is: tight pants, bright colored shirts (think, t-shirts with strange things on them, stuff you'd find in a thrift store). Also, sweaters. Argyle, cardigan, again, uglier color patterns the better. Black horn rimmed glasses are a must, some wear studded belts. Doc martins or black converses, gross looking snow boots. Jackets, again stuff you'd find at a thrift store, corduroy, trench, suede.

Hair is generally longish -- with emphasis on the long bangs, but not necessarily black. I never dyed my hair black, but I didn't consider myself emo, I just dressed "indie".

The concept of emo musically is that there were a few waves. It began with bands like Rites of Spring, in the 80s, and eventually died down. The second wave was spearheaded by sunny day real estate, fugazi, jawbreaker, etc.

Then, when I got into it, it was bands like the promise ring, Weezer's "Pinkerton", Joan of Arc, Jimmy eat world: again, I was mostly into Indie at the time but they're related.

Then, Emo hit the mainstream, and a punch of mall poppunk/emo bands started popping up.

The basic idea is embarrassingly personal lyrics, loudish but melodic guitars, some different time signatures. Emo singers don't sing the same way normal singers do: their voices are generally poorly trained, break easily, there's some screaming.

After it hit mainstream, hot topic began carrying all sorts of things it started marketing as emo. So, tweens and teens got into it.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 11:10 AM
Tapu your nose does not look big to me. Im Jewish and I know my big noses.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm going to disagree with some of the definition of "emo" here. I will come out of the closet to say that in my late high school and early college years I may have dressed in a style that might have been interpreted as emoish, though I considered myself indie.

Generally, the idea is: tight pants, bright colored shirts (think, t-shirts with strange things on them, stuff you'd find in a thrift store). Also, sweaters. Argyle, cardigan, again, uglier color patterns the better. Black horn rimmed glasses are a must, some wear studded belts. Doc martins or black converses, gross looking snow boots. Jackets, again stuff you'd find at a thrift store, corduroy, trench, suede.

Hair is generally longish -- with emphasis on the long bangs, but not necessarily black. I never dyed my hair black, but I didn't consider myself emo, I just dressed "indie".

The concept of emo musically is that there were a few waves. It began with bands like Rites of Spring, in the 80s, and eventually died down. The second wave was spearheaded by sunny day real estate, fugazi, jawbreaker, etc.

Then, when I got into it, it was bands like the promise ring, Weezer's "Pinkerton", Joan of Arc, Jimmy eat world: again, I was mostly into Indie at the time but they're related.

Then, Emo hit the mainstream, and a punch of mall poppunk/emo bands started popping up.

The basic idea is embarrassingly personal lyrics, loudish but melodic guitars, some different time signatures. Emo singers don't sing the same way normal singers do: their voices are generally poorly trained, break easily, there's some screaming.

After it hit mainstream, hot topic began carrying all sorts of things it started marketing as emo. So, tweens and teens got into it.


Interesting, I was always the Sid Vicious type, pretty hard core punk and very much in to Dead Kennedys and Sex Pistols <3

Pretty much me in HS and college lol

http://www.rtvchannel.tv/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sid-vicious.jpg

Sally Trueheart
12-02-2009, 11:25 AM
Well in my case, raves were expensive because I had to cover my broke friends lol!

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 11:26 AM
Also worth mentioning that the punk scene and metal scene are alive and well at least here in the bay area. Melanie Wells listed her favorite band as "Green Day" and Sam's sister aka SarahThizzle used to be a raver but now is an underground metal promoter.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 11:27 AM
Well in my case, raves were expensive because I had to cover my broke friends lol!

Ha ha. Girls pay to go to raves?

"You're doing it wrong."

tapu
12-02-2009, 11:30 AM
I know some emo girl teenagers. They are really into putting on heavy black eye make-up and then making themselves cry and taking their own pictures. They really get worked up, too. I hope my son doesn't do that....

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 11:41 AM
I went to the University of Arizona and the rave scene was huge there in Tucson at the time, I went to a few but that really wasnt my scene, we preferred wharehouse parties with mosh pits but those raver chicks were always the most fun, I loved punk but I could never get in to chicks with mohawks.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Also keep in mind DM is in the bay area so the raves there were probably a lot cheaper because of the sheer volume of people. In smaller metro areas they were not always cheap in my experience because they didnt draw the number of people bigger city raves did. While I never had to pay for a rave I remember raves in Tucson being about 30 bucks a head sometimes 15 or 20 if it was an especially large one. FWIW I have never done XTC so I probably have never really experienced a rave the way it should be experienced lol. For all the trouble we caused me and my closest friends never got in to much drug or alcohol usage except for mushrooms and herbage both of which I stopped doing years ago.

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 11:44 AM
I went to the University of Arizona and the rave scene was huge there in Tucson at the time, I went to a few but that really wasnt my scene, we preferred wharehouse parties with mosh pits but those raver chicks were always the most fun, I loved punk but I could never get in to chicks with mohawks.

Yeah, i was never into a chick with hair that could poke me in the eye.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 11:46 AM
Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words....

http://www.luv-emo.com/
http://www.tiggerlovesyou.com/
http://www.faygoluvers.net/main/?id=pics/livepics

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 11:52 AM
Also keep in mind DM is in the bay area so the raves there were probably a lot cheaper because of the sheer volume of people. In smaller metro areas they were not always cheap in my experience because they didnt draw the number of people bigger city raves did. While I never had to pay for a rave I remember raves in Tucson being about 30 bucks a head sometimes 15 or 20 if it was an especially large one. FWIW I have never done XTC so I probably have never really experienced a rave the way it should be experienced lol. For all the trouble we caused me and my closest friends never got in to much drug or alcohol usage except for mushrooms and herbage both of which I stopped doing years ago.

Well in the late 90s a lot of people got the idea that they could get rich from raves, and some of them actually did. This meant mega-events known in the scene as "massives" and appropriately "massive" ticket prices. Then the whole thing crashed and burned along with the dot.com bust.

Today the rave culture is divided into two main groups, the raver kids shown on the site I just linked to "Tigger Loves You" and old school ravers or "geriatrics" as they are known. The two cultures rarely party together, but when they do watch out. It's either a blast or a bust. ;)

The oldest raver I know is older than my dad...

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Pictures from a local renegade: http://www.strategiksf.com/gallery/?level=album&id=34

This location is 5 minutes from my house and despite being about a 2 minute walk from the ranger station it did not get busted. The cost for this event was $0.

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 12:15 PM
To be a raver, do you have to be able to dance? If so, looks like my two left feet and stiff hips are out.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 12:21 PM
To be a raver, do you have to be able to dance? If so, looks like my two left feet and stiff hips are out.

They have a pill for that you know. Also, some people just sort of "sway".

Here's an image from the most recent party I went to which had a 20s theme:

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v645/171/31/1381327681/n1381327681_225875_4480.jpg

I am not in this picture so don't try guessing.

tapu
12-02-2009, 12:37 PM
God. Get that guy with no shirt out of the front of there.

You're lucky that's not you, Danger.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 01:10 PM
God. Get that guy with no shirt out of the front of there.

You're lucky that's not you, Danger.

No one needs to see me with my shirt off Tapu.

His name is Sat, and he's a super awesome dancer BTW.

ericclimbs
12-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Also keep in mind DM is in the bay area so the raves there were probably a lot cheaper because of the sheer volume of people. In smaller metro areas they were not always cheap in my experience because they didnt draw the number of people bigger city raves did. While I never had to pay for a rave I remember raves in Tucson being about 30 bucks a head sometimes 15 or 20 if it was an especially large one. FWIW I have never done XTC so I probably have never really experienced a rave the way it should be experienced lol. For all the trouble we caused me and my closest friends never got in to much drug or alcohol usage except for mushrooms and herbage both of which I stopped doing years ago.

I've only been to one rave and this was in 1994 in a warehouse type building in Washington, D.C. I was 24 years old and already, at that young age, felt like one of the geriatrics DM refers to. There were kids there that looked to be as young as 14 and 15, on ecstasy, and I wondered how the hell they pulled that off getting out of the house for an all night party (the sleepover trick, maybe, where kids go to each others house, on the same night, to stay over?). They wore baggy pants and shirts and a lot of them had the wallet chains which ran from their waist to their knee and back. (Do they still wear those?)

I participated in the chemical experience and must say, though I never made it back to another one, I had a fantastic time. After the rave there was an afterparty at a bar at 8am.

DM, what is the general age distinction these days, as to when you are considered a geriatric?

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 01:36 PM
I've only been to one rave and this was in 1994 in a warehouse type building in Washington, D.C. I was 24 years old and already, at that young age, felt like one of the geriatrics DM refers to. There were kids there that looked to be as young as 14 and 15, on ecstasy, and I wondered how the hell they pulled that off getting out of the house for an all night party (the sleepover trick, maybe, where kids go to each others house, on the same night, to stay over?). They wore baggy pants and shirts and a lot of them had the wallet chains which ran from their waist to their knee and back. (Do they still wear those?)

I participated in the chemical experience and must say, though I never made it back to another one, I had a fantastic time. After the rave there was an afterparty at a bar at 8am.

DM, what is the general age distinction these days, as to when you are considered a geriatric?

Geriatric Raver age is 25. See http://www.raverg.org/

lol, I'm now beyond geriatric into the "ancient" category. But amusingly I am never the oldest guy at a party.

ETA: you still see some people wearing phat pants and chains, but not so much. Check out Tigger's site for some images of recent "kiddie" raves if you need some fashion tips ;)

ericclimbs
12-02-2009, 01:40 PM
While I personally am enjoying our discussions here those, whose eyes are glazing over from our off topic excursions, take heart: only 40 days to January 11th!!

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 01:45 PM
Taking the hint....

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/100/l_384275fd08d148ea90b85520ee9a6cb7.jpg

Interesting timing no?

And BTW Razakel created this image.

RockDawg
12-02-2009, 01:55 PM
Taking the hint....

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/100/l_384275fd08d148ea90b85520ee9a6cb7.jpg

Interesting timing no?

And BTW Razakel created this image. what's supposed to be the significance for that date ?


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=88160855&blogId=514634131

Wes
12-02-2009, 02:05 PM
what's supposed to be the significance for that date ?


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=88160855&blogId=514634131

1+22 = 23


:dance:

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 02:08 PM
In other news Tiger admits to cheating on wife.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 02:18 PM
In other news Tiger admits to cheating on wife.


News?

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 02:26 PM
what's supposed to be the significance for that date ?


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=88160855&blogId=514634131

Well its the week after likely news pop from the 1/11 hearing, as Wes states 1+22=23, also 22 is the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet which is a hint about his gematria approach. Further 1+2+2+1+0=6 and 6 is the number of the devil.

You already mentioned the release of the movie Legion which is the story of a "fallen angel" who comes to earth to save the human race when God decides it is time for a do over.

hank
12-02-2009, 03:09 PM
Wouldn't it be 1+22+2010 =2033 or maybe 1+2+2+2+0+1+0=8 ?

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Wouldn't it be 1+22+2010 =2033 or maybe 1+2+2+2+0+1+0=8 ?

That is of course another interpretation.

However dates are commonly written without the leading digits.

For example that date everyone is all agitated about these days is 12/21/12 and 1+1+2+1+1+2 =9 (six inverted) or 11 if you use 2012 instead of just 12.

(Some say 12/12/12 too FWIW)

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 03:46 PM
From one review of the movie Legion:

"In the movie Legion, which hits the silver screen on January 22, 2010, we have one of the most blasphemous and deceptive movies to ever be propagated on the general public. If there was ever a movie that illustrates God’s warning that the wicked would call evil good and good evil, and put darkness for light and light for darkness, Legion is that movie!

The movie Legion appears to be part and parcel of an ongoing spiritual indoctrination process to turn the world against God the Creator in anticipation of the prophesied worship of the coming Antichrist. Legion begins by letting the audience know that the movie is suppose to be about the “end of days” recorded in Holy Scripture. However, it is really a movie wherein the bible is blatantly turned inside out and on its head…"

From http://cupofjoe.goodfight.org/?p=659

And you thought horrorcore was bad.

Farmvillian
12-02-2009, 04:01 PM
You guys following the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_na2EHci-fo Case?

RockDawg
12-02-2009, 04:05 PM
I think there is a separate thread for the above ?

boygenius
12-02-2009, 04:10 PM
Apparently the Longwood secret society Chi had an evil or mischievous offshoot at one point called "Red Chi" that used the red Skull and Bones as their symbol.

Chi as exemplified in the form of the Chi-Rho is a symbol of the cross. Those "scary" Chi-burings take on a new meaning in this light.

Actually, "Red Chi" is just what the newer generation of Chi sometimes refers to the old Chi as. They did wear red skull and crossbones, but later changed their colors to blue and white. Still the same Chi though.

Farmvillian
12-02-2009, 04:11 PM
Sorry should have searched that first. Seems this guy lived with bodies to.

ziggy
12-02-2009, 04:14 PM
That is of course another interpretation.

However dates are commonly written without the leading digits.

For example that date everyone is all agitated about these days is 12/21/12 and 1+1+2+1+1+2 =9 (six inverted) or 11 if you use 2012 instead of just 12.

(Some say 12/12/12 too FWIW)

HELLO, 12/12/12 will be my birthday ------- (twilight zone music). Think I should rack up lots of debt for my birthday bash on credit and hope we all perish so I don't have to pay it back??? I did get stuck with a lot of pork & beans after Y2K.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 04:22 PM
Actually, "Red Chi" is just what the newer generation of Chi sometimes refers to the old Chi as. They did wear red skull and crossbones, but later changed their colors to blue and white. Still the same Chi though.

Was this when the university cracked down on the organization? Apparently Chi was more enforcement oriented in their earlier years something which was not always viewed as positive by members of the student body.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 04:25 PM
More on "Legion" and what it refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_(demon)

tapu
12-02-2009, 04:30 PM
HELLO, 12/12/12 will be my birthday ------- (twilight zone music). Think I should rack up lots of debt for my birthday bash on credit and hope we all perish so I don't have to pay it back??? I did get stuck with a lot of pork & beans after Y2K.

I should very much like to be there, Ziggy. Remember, I put a word in first. :innocent:


{tapu grin}

ziggy
12-02-2009, 04:43 PM
I should very much like to be there, Ziggy. Remember, I put a word in first. :innocent:


{tapu grin}

Oh I would very much like for The Tapu to be there! Let's see...dangrs will dress like a raver, Paximus is either Sid Vicious or monk (now there's a fascinating dichotomy); I grew up in the very dangerous and controversial era of The Grateful Dead and brace yourself...Disco :) Between those two I'm probably much more Disco these days. Anyone else?

Sorry to get OT, but January 11 is getting here like molasses and my friend Peacegurl still ain't talkin!

Oh, and Heroine is a pin up girl so perhaps she'll emerge from a giant cake :)

RockDawg
12-02-2009, 04:46 PM
From one review of the movie Legion:

"In the movie Legion, which hits the silver screen on January 22, 2010, we have one of the most blasphemous and deceptive movies to ever be propagated on the general public. If there was ever a movie that illustrates God’s warning that the wicked would call evil good and good evil, and put darkness for light and light for darkness, Legion is that movie!

The movie Legion appears to be part and parcel of an ongoing spiritual indoctrination process to turn the world against God the Creator in anticipation of the prophesied worship of the coming Antichrist. Legion begins by letting the audience know that the movie is suppose to be about the “end of days” recorded in Holy Scripture. However, it is really a movie wherein the bible is blatantly turned inside out and on its head…"

From http://cupofjoe.goodfight.org/?p=659

And you thought horrorcore was bad.
Well , I followed the link and then tried to do as they suggested and watch their video clip.

The video clip was taken down by youtube because a claim by Sony of copyright infringement. Which is , by the way , a form of stealing.

ziggy
12-02-2009, 05:03 PM
http://www.legionmovie.com/

Watched the trailer - still a bit confused about the whole concept. The movie looks very disturbing and I tend to stay away from disturbing.

boygenius
12-02-2009, 05:05 PM
Was this when the university cracked down on the organization? Apparently Chi was more enforcement oriented in their earlier years something which was not always viewed as positive by members of the student body.

That I'm not sure about. The university does have a judicial board, which is student runned and is sometimes looked down on by students......mostly because they're the ones getting in trouble. Chi was never a enforcement group to my knowledge, but a group that reconizes the good and selflessness of individuals on campus. To recieve a Chi Commendation at the end of the year is a good thing.

nakedmanjoe
12-02-2009, 05:09 PM
Oh I would very much like for The Tapu to be there! Let's see...dangrs will dress like a raver, Paximus is either Sid Vicious or monk (now there's a fascinating dichotomy); I grew up in the very dangerous and controversial era of The Grateful Dead and brace yourself...Disco :) Between those two I'm probably much more Disco these days. Anyone else?

Sorry to get OT, but January 11 is getting here like molasses and my friend Peacegurl still ain't talkin!

Oh, and Heroine is a pin up girl so perhaps she'll emerge from a giant cake :)

What goods a girls b-day party without a Naked man?

ziggy
12-02-2009, 05:10 PM
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090816/upcoming-movie-legion-pits-angels-vs-mankind/index.html

Snipped: "The trailer for an upcoming fantasy-thriller film on the Apocalypse hit the web this past week, presenting movie fans with the question “What if God lost faith in mankind?”

“The last time God lost faith in man, He sent the flood. This time, He sent angels,” states the archangel Michael, played Paul Bettany (“The Da Vinci Code”).

Directed by visual effects guru Scott Stewart (“Iron Man,” “Night at the Museum,” “Superman Returns”), “Legion” pits mankind against a horde of the devil’s minions – fallen angels, whom God allows to have their way with humanity after having lost faith in it."

Ok, well seriously if God decided do-over and it's God's decision to make because there is a God, then he probably knows best so...and if I were God I'd be about to the "lost faith in man" point after cruising Websleuths wowza.

ziggy
12-02-2009, 05:12 PM
What goods a girls b-day party without a Naked man?

I was just thinking naked man! You are psychic. I watched the Legion trailer and wondered if Paul Bettany was going to be naked again... and then nakedmanjoe chimes in...yes, need a naked man but can you dance like Party Boy?

blouAngel
12-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Oh I would very much like for The Tapu to be there! Let's see...dangrs will dress like a raver, Paximus is either Sid Vicious or monk (now there's a fascinating dichotomy); I grew up in the very dangerous and controversial era of The Grateful Dead and brace yourself...Disco :) Between those two I'm probably much more Disco these days. Anyone else?

Sorry to get OT, but January 11 is getting here like molasses and my friend Peacegurl still ain't talkin!

Oh, and Heroine is a pin up girl so perhaps she'll emerge from a giant cake :)

Just put Shakedown Street on repeat play and you'll satisfy both your Dead and your disco needs.

claudicici
12-02-2009, 05:26 PM
Been reading along, with little time to spare..but can so can some one 'splain to me how the Raver's, the Emo's, amd the Juggalettes/Jugalloes differ?-- Paximus

Raver-- Alcohol shunned for the most part. Ecstatic dancing for hours on end provided by djs. Music is continuous, very positive and extremely loud. Energy drinks, Ecstacy drug of choice. Major danger: dancing too much, sending electrolytes out of whack by too much dancing/ water, and of course hearing damage. Frequent Ecstacy use may lead to depression eventually. Typical raver wears clothing all colors of the rainbow, wide legged pants, giant platform shoes, and a pacifier on a necklace. More commonly people wear silly costume- like accessories such as a hat with neon feather trim. Sometimes candy necklaces around the neck. This may be connected to the strichhanine in the drugs that causes them to grind their teeth. Raves are pretty expensive, complicated to find, and requiring a long time commitment (dance for 8 plus hours, then sleep the day away).

Emos-- A term that has a tinge of derision-- "he's/ she's so emo." May be a short term identity. Weepy, sad, tragic, sensitive, depressed, etc. Boys are frequently emo, unlike in the Goth scene which was mainly girls. People dress fairly conventionally but in dark colors, in contrast to the Goth scene of the 90's which was referencing victoriana- lace, satin, velvet, bodices, etc. Art making and Singing valued.

Juggalettes/ Juggalloes- Fans of Insane Clown Posse. This is new to me too.



....oh and one thing about "emo's"....noone will admit to being "emo",don't tell an obvious "emo" they're "emo"...don't categorize them,same with scene kids,don't call them scene....they get very angry,lol....I know cos all my daughters' friends are emo or scene....but I did not calll them that...

claudicici
12-02-2009, 05:34 PM
I'm going to disagree with some of the definition of "emo" here. I will come out of the closet to say that in my late high school and early college years I may have dressed in a style that might have been interpreted as emoish, though I considered myself indie.

Generally, the idea is: tight pants, bright colored shirts (think, t-shirts with strange things on them, stuff you'd find in a thrift store). Also, sweaters. Argyle, cardigan, again, uglier color patterns the better. Black horn rimmed glasses are a must, some wear studded belts. Doc martins or black converses, gross looking snow boots. Jackets, again stuff you'd find at a thrift store, corduroy, trench, suede.

Hair is generally longish -- with emphasis on the long bangs, but not necessarily black. I never dyed my hair black, but I didn't consider myself emo, I just dressed "indie".

lol,you SO were emo,andres,like I said the main thing about being emo is not admitting to being emo.....oh and what about screamo?....i like a lot of those bands...

claudicici
12-02-2009, 05:36 PM
Interesting, I was always the Sid Vicious type, pretty hard core punk and very much in to Dead Kennedys and Sex Pistols <3

Pretty much me in HS and college lol

http://www.rtvchannel.tv/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sid-vicious.jpg

sid is god

nakedmanjoe
12-02-2009, 06:05 PM
I was just thinking naked man! You are psychic. I watched the Legion trailer and wondered if Paul Bettany was going to be naked again... and then nakedmanjoe chimes in...yes, need a naked man but can you dance like Party Boy?


Well....here's my Party Boy credentials

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=30886772

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 06:09 PM
That I'm not sure about. The university does have a judicial board, which is student runned and is sometimes looked down on by students......mostly because they're the ones getting in trouble. Chi was never a enforcement group to my knowledge, but a group that reconizes the good and selflessness of individuals on campus. To recieve a Chi Commendation at the end of the year is a good thing.

Here's a starting point for some of these points: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=61962573388&topic=7807

Remember that this organization is over 100 years old and that people at that time had very different ideas than we do today about various matters.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 06:12 PM
Well....here's my Party Boy credentials

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=30886772

Not naked.:hand:

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 06:16 PM
sid is god

So...

How does Sid Vicious's lifestyle compare to the horrorcore scene? He ended up dying too, maybe a slower less brutal demise, and I guess he was complicit in a way. Still, is he to be idolized for this?

I'm a fan of Hendrix and the Sex Pistols and Nirvana and probably some other artists that offed themselves. But I'm not really a fan of offing yourself or taking drugs until you croak.

Dumb.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 06:21 PM
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090816/upcoming-movie-legion-pits-angels-vs-mankind/index.html

Snipped: "The trailer for an upcoming fantasy-thriller film on the Apocalypse hit the web this past week, presenting movie fans with the question “What if God lost faith in mankind?”

“The last time God lost faith in man, He sent the flood. This time, He sent angels,” states the archangel Michael, played Paul Bettany (“The Da Vinci Code”).

Directed by visual effects guru Scott Stewart (“Iron Man,” “Night at the Museum,” “Superman Returns”), “Legion” pits mankind against a horde of the devil’s minions – fallen angels, whom God allows to have their way with humanity after having lost faith in it."

Ok, well seriously if God decided do-over and it's God's decision to make because there is a God, then he probably knows best so...and if I were God I'd be about to the "lost faith in man" point after cruising Websleuths wowza.

The movie is almost certain to be crap although sometimes these sorts of things turn out to be cult classics; hard to say from that trailer. But nevertheless it is interesting IMO if you understand that SickTanicK's CD to be released on the same day is going to be related thematically.

boygenius
12-02-2009, 06:21 PM
Here's a starting point for some of these points: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=61962573388&topic=7807

Remember that this organization is over 100 years old and that people at that time had very different ideas than we do today about various matters.

This is true, but I think a lot of this is rumor......I could be wrong though. I spoke with someone on campus today that has been at or involved with Longwood for over 25 years and he told me that "Red Chi" was just the old school Chi.....nothing more, nothing less. But who knows, it is a "secret society" so I'm not privileged to their info.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 06:25 PM
This is true, but I think a lot of this is rumor......I could be wrong though. I spoke with someone on campus today that has been at or involved with Longwood for over 25 years and he told me that "Red Chi" was just the old school Chi.....nothing more, nothing less. But who knows, it is a "secret society" so I'm not privileged to their info.

Well, one might say for instance read copies of the Farmville paper in the Library of Congress archives to see if there are any reports about Chi or the reputed murders related to the organization. Doing this would probably would be a very large waste of time. Trust me on this.

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 06:57 PM
So...

How does Sid Vicious's lifestyle compare to the horrorcore scene? He ended up dying too, maybe a slower less brutal demise, and I guess he was complicit in a way. Still, is he to be idolized for this?

I'm a fan of Hendrix and the Sex Pistols and Nirvana and probably some other artists that offed themselves. But I'm not really a fan of offing yourself or taking drugs until you croak.

Dumb.

Less brutal? He stabbed Nancy to death.

blouAngel
12-02-2009, 07:11 PM
I have to laugh every time I read about CHI droppings. Seems like something you would find mixed with cedar shavings when you clean out a CHI cage.

tapu
12-02-2009, 07:11 PM
Less brutal? He stabbed Nancy to death.

Yeah, but other than that.... ;)

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 07:14 PM
Less brutal? He stabbed Nancy to death.

I think they were able to identify her body. Feel free to correct me here. I am not an expert on the story.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 07:14 PM
I have to laugh every time I read about CHI droppings. Seems like something you would find mixed with cedar shavings when you clean out a CHI cage.

This would explain the superstition about stepping on them... ;)

AndresEscobar
12-02-2009, 07:30 PM
I think they were able to identify her body. Feel free to correct me here. I am not an expert on the story.

Sure, i guess it's technically less brutal.

tapu
12-02-2009, 07:36 PM
Sure, i guess it's technically less brutal.

Distinction might be lost on the dead person....

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 07:43 PM
Distinction might be lost on the dead person....

Well, that was sort of my point I guess. Why is Sid cool, but Sam ain't?

tapu
12-02-2009, 07:47 PM
Well, that was sort of my point I guess. Why is Sid cool, but Sam ain't?

Sid could sing. Naw, that isn't it.

ziggy
12-02-2009, 08:07 PM
I don't and never did think Sid was cool. Skinny, disgusting murdering drug addict with some talent. Big D. Guess it's just what you're into at a certain age...sometimes your judgment abilities at the time you form the opinion it's cool aren't fully developed yet you carry that same opinion through the development period and it doesn't change. Had you been older or been through more, you probably wouldn't think the same things were cool.

I thought David Bowie was cool. I've never thought Mick Jagger was cool. I think Jimi and Janis are cool, but if they'd lived out their junkie lives on TMZ, I might only think them sad but talented in today's view.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 08:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7oSZnrYL_M

Belsen was a gas I heard the other day
In the open graves where the jews all lay
Life is fun and I wish you were here
They wrote on postcards to those held dear
Oh dear

Sergeant majors on the march
Wash their bodies in the starch
See them all die one by one
Guess it's dead guess it's glad
So bad

Belsen was a gas I heard the other day
In the open graves where the jews all lay
Life is fun and I wish you were here
They wrote on postcards to those held dear
Oh dear

Be a man be a man Belson was a gas
Be a man kill somone kill yourself be a man
Be someone kill somone be a man kill yourself
-- Sid Vicious

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 08:36 PM
I don't and never did think Sid was cool. Skinny, disgusting murdering drug addict with some talent. Big D. Guess it's just what you're into at a certain age...sometimes your judgment abilities at the time you form the opinion it's cool aren't fully developed yet you carry that same opinion through the development period and it doesn't change. Had you been older or been through more, you probably wouldn't think the same things were cool.

I thought David Bowie was cool. I've never thought Mick Jagger was cool. I think Jimi and Janis are cool, but if they'd lived out their junkie lives on TMZ, I might only think them sad but talented in today's view.


"I ain't never killed no cop...I felt like it a lot of times. But I never did it. If you believe that I'm a cop killer, you believe David Bowie is an astronaut."
-Ice T

See also http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/local_news/epaper/2009/08/01/a1b_binocol_0802.html

Of course both Sid and Sam did kill people.

tapu
12-02-2009, 08:46 PM
Ice T... that plays a cop... on TV?? :waitasec:



(hey the bowie-astronaut analogy is really good, huh?)

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Ice T... that plays a cop... on TV?? :waitasec:



(hey the bowie-astronaut analogy is really good, huh?)


Hey I was just happy I found a Bowie tie in. Bowie really hasn't written any really offensive songs IMO and I think his musicianship is pretty impeccable.

tapu
12-02-2009, 09:05 PM
Yah, I dig the Bowie.

PAXIMUS
12-02-2009, 09:40 PM
I was young and stupid when I was all in to Sid, I still love the Sex Pistols and listen to them all the time but I am not in to the Sid look anymore and I was never in to herion and **** like that, just dumb, as you say.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 10:30 PM
I was young and stupid when I was all in to Sid, I still love the Sex Pistols and listen to them all the time but I am not in to the Sid look anymore and I was never in to herion and **** like that, just dumb, as you say.

So I wasn't ever really a punk but knew a few people in the very early days of the punk scene in Berkeley, and I also went to a number of underground punk parties in LA too. A few people I knew used to live and/or hang out at Barrington Hall during the days of the infamous Wine Parties. For some people it was great times, but for some others it seemed to end up being a pretty self destructive path from what I saw of it. A few of my friends in that scene had pretty serious substance abuse issues including both meth and heroin use.

I see some similarities between the early punk days and the horrorcore scene with the emphasis on shock tactics and debauchery, they aren't identical mind you, but I do see some parallels including in some of the self destructive tendencies and also very notably IMO in the family backgrounds and histories of the people that are drawn to the music.

See http://www.tribe.net/template/pub,tribes,TribePhotoAlbum.vm?tribeid=4d633a65-14a4-48aa-a930-6d43fd1ba38e

boygenius
12-02-2009, 11:00 PM
This would explain the superstition about stepping on them... ;)

So you've wasted some time reading up on the Farmville paper, huh? You must have been really bored:crazy: The superstition is that if you step on a blue rotunda (CHI symbol), which are painted around the campus sidewalks, you will have blue babies. Chi droppings however are good things to find......I found one once when I first started working at Longwood and had no idea what it was, so I left it.

Longwood has two secret societies, Chi and Princaps. The Princaps have blacks crowns painted on the sidewalks around campus, and those are good luck if you step on them.

dangrsmind
12-02-2009, 11:41 PM
So you've wasted some time reading up on the Farmville paper, huh? You must have been really bored:crazy: The superstition is that if you step on a blue rotunda (CHI symbol), which are painted around the campus sidewalks, you will have blue babies. Chi droppings however are good things to find......I found one once when I first started working at Longwood and had no idea what it was, so I left it.

Longwood has two secret societies, Chi and Princaps. The Princaps have blacks crowns painted on the sidewalks around campus, and those are good luck if you step on them.

Two different blogs which I read stated that stepping on a Chi dropping was bad luck.

As far as the Farmville paper, the LoC has a searchable database dating back to the 1800s so it doesn't require that you read every issue. The search is a bit funky however, so it takes a fair bit of fiddling around to find what you want. I found a lot of interesting stuff including the first pictures of the "Normal School" when it was first opened. Also images after the fire destroyed part of the school and some other interesting stuff. I barely scratched the surface of this amazing resource and they have newspaper archives for a lot of other places as well.

claudicici
12-03-2009, 12:26 AM
So...

How does Sid Vicious's lifestyle compare to the horrorcore scene? He ended up dying too, maybe a slower less brutal demise, and I guess he was complicit in a way. Still, is he to be idolized for this?

I'm a fan of Hendrix and the Sex Pistols and Nirvana and probably some other artists that offed themselves. But I'm not really a fan of offing yourself or taking drugs until you croak.

Dumb.

i was ("half") joking of course,lol,of course i don't idolize him for the reality of him being a wasted,lost kid ,i idolize him for the fantasy he provided back then that you can do whatever you want to ,whenever you want to,everytime i make another dumb a** choice in life,i crank up sid's version of "my way" and tell myself "here's to you,sid,punk's not dead"

claudicici
12-03-2009, 12:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7oSZnrYL_M

Belsen was a gas I heard the other day
In the open graves where the jews all lay
Life is fun and I wish you were here
They wrote on postcards to those held dear
Oh dear

Sergeant majors on the march
Wash their bodies in the starch
See them all die one by one
Guess it's dead guess it's glad
So bad

Belsen was a gas I heard the other day
In the open graves where the jews all lay
Life is fun and I wish you were here
They wrote on postcards to those held dear
Oh dear

Be a man be a man Belson was a gas
Be a man kill somone kill yourself be a man
Be someone kill somone be a man kill yourself
-- Sid Vicious

....this song is sarcasmn,shows how f*** up this world is,but life is fun,right?...sid killed nancy( and that's not even 100% proven),sid didn't kill two girls with a future ,a professor and a priest and walked away with a smile on his face,sober at that........sid assisted nancy ,she was pretty much already dead and he couldn't handle it and died shortly after.sid was devastated.

PAXIMUS
12-03-2009, 01:23 AM
So I wasn't ever really a punk but knew a few people in the very early days of the punk scene in Berkeley, and I also went to a number of underground punk parties in LA too. A few people I knew used to live and/or hang out at Barrington Hall during the days of the infamous Wine Parties. For some people it was great times, but for some others it seemed to end up being a pretty self destructive path from what I saw of it. A few of my friends in that scene had pretty serious substance abuse issues including both meth and heroin use.

I see some similarities between the early punk days and the horrorcore scene with the emphasis on shock tactics and debauchery, they aren't identical mind you, but I do see some parallels including in some of the self destructive tendencies and also very notably IMO in the family backgrounds and histories of the people that are drawn to the music.

See http://www.tribe.net/template/pub,tribes,TribePhotoAlbum.vm?tribeid=4d633a65-14a4-48aa-a930-6d43fd1ba38e

Yes I can see that but I think the punk scene was a bit more intellectually minded and politically fueled, they were making real and credible statements against the machine for lack of a better word, at least some of them, certainly not all. I dont see a lot of that in horrorcore and it just seems to be more about role playing and taking things as far as they can for shock value. I dont see them are a true rebellion movement like I did the punks but then again I am biased because the punk scene was my life growing up and my personal reasons for being part of it was a great disdain for all things corporate and capitalist.

PAXIMUS
12-03-2009, 01:25 AM
i was ("half") joking of course,lol,of course i don't idolize him for the reality of him being a wasted,lost kid ,i idolize him for the fantasy he provided back then that you can do whatever you want to ,whenever you want to,everytime i make another dumb a** choice in life,i crank up sid's version of "my way" and tell myself "here's to you,sid,punk's not dead"

Yes that I would agree with Sid represented freedom and someone who was really true to himself and certainly wasnt a poser, he lived his lyrics like few ever have. He was obviously battling some terrible demons and that was tragic, drug addiction is no laughing matter and I wont judge people who have to deal with it because it is no walk in the park.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 01:28 AM
....this song is sarcasmn,shows how f*** up this world is,but life is fun,right?...sid killed nancy( and that's not even 100% proven),sid didn't kill two girls with a future ,a professor and a priest and walked away with a smile on his face,sober at that........sid assisted nancy ,she was pretty much already dead and he couldn't handle it and died shortly after.sid was devastated.

You don't think horrorcore songs contain an element of humor or sarchasm? I think a lot of people thought Sam's music was funny and not to be taken seriously right up until he killed four people.

How about this track?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDEWsOGlnD8

Come on now this song is clearly a joke and the way he delivers the vocal, I have to say that I actually think it's pretty damn funny.

Sam was doing the same thing, just not nearly as well as Mars and without someone talented like McNastee producing the beats.

How about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VZtpCFBUg

Come on sing along!

"I'd grab a clip or two, load it up and then I'm cool..."

ETA: I think there should be a Barney the Evil Dinosaur remix of Shooting Spree

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 01:31 AM
Yes that I would agree with Sid represented freedom and someone who was really true to himself and certainly wasnt a poser, he lived his lyrics like few ever have. He was obviously battling some terrible demons and that was tragic, drug addiction is no laughing matter and I wont judge people who have to deal with it because it is no walk in the park.

Freedom? I hardly would call heroin addiction freedom.

Heroine
12-03-2009, 02:24 AM
Well, that was sort of my point I guess. Why is Sid cool, but Sam ain't?
I think the reason Sid's cool and Sam isn't is because, people look at what Sid did as somewhat of an accident since he was high on heroin. We don't know of any drugs that Sam did while there yet, not that it's impossible, because he did have access to some drugs, but it was well known that Sid was usually high on heroin and so was Nancy. When you're high on a drug like that, to you nothing is reality, and things don't seem as serious. so i can def. see someone killing someone else while on Heroin and not even knowing that they are doing it.
Sam on the other hand would have had to have been high for at least 4 days straight to have just happened to be high when the preacher came over, but that's not impossible either.
Just my opinion.

ericclimbs
12-03-2009, 03:01 AM
You don't think horrorcore songs contain an element of humor or sarchasm? I think a lot of people thought Sam's music was funny and not to be taken seriously right up until he killed four people.

How about this track?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDEWsOGlnD8

Come on now this song is clearly a joke and the way he delivers the vocal, I have to say that I actually think it's pretty damn funny.

Sam was doing the same thing, just not nearly as well as Mars and without someone talented like McNastee producing the beats.

How about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VZtpCFBUg

Come on sing along!

"I'd grab a clip or two, load it up and then I'm cool..."

ETA: I think there should be a Barney the Evil Dinosaur remix of Shooting Spree

"rubbin' on your feet"

that's funny!

DM I kind of like those songs. . .

blouAngel
12-03-2009, 03:06 AM
You don't think horrorcore songs contain an element of humor or sarchasm? I think a lot of people thought Sam's music was funny and not to be taken seriously right up until he killed four people.

How about this track?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDEWsOGlnD8

Come on now this song is clearly a joke and the way he delivers the vocal, I have to say that I actually think it's pretty damn funny.

Sam was doing the same thing, just not nearly as well as Mars and without someone talented like McNastee producing the beats.

How about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VZtpCFBUg

Come on sing along!

"I'd grab a clip or two, load it up and then I'm cool..."

ETA: I think there should be a Barney the Evil Dinosaur remix of Shooting Spree

I got a crazy idea to go back to college a few years ago after having been kicked out back in the 80's. I returned to Va Tech and was a student in the architecture school there when 32 people were shot in a building adjacent to the building where my studio was.

I missed the immediate shock since I had gone home the previous friday and stayed there for an event on Monday evening. I was in a coffee shop at home when I got the first of several emails warning of shootings on campus. Classes were cancelled for the rest of the week, so I didn't return until the following Saturday.

The night I got back to Blacksburg, I went to the building where the shootings had occurred, since I knew I would have no choice but to deal with it. There was a huge area closed off with police tape and a 24 hour police guard which stayed for months, but there was a couple standing just inside of it holding each other. I could see other people standing in the shadows all around and I heard something I've never heard before, which was the sound of a mostly unseen crowd softly crying.

There's just no way to describe the devastation that shooting caused. My French professor from the year before was killed. My next door neighbor lost a very close friend and several other people I know lost friends. Everyone was in shock and almost no one said anything about what had happened, so it was very difficult to know who had lost friends, but I know that a significant number of people around me had.

That came near the end of a school year that started on day one with an on campus hunt by state police and SWAT teams for a gunman who had escaped from custody the previous evening. He had been taken to the hospital by a police officer officer whose gun he took and then shot as he escaped. He then shot dead another officer who stumbled onto him on a local bike trail and disappeared. I went to campus on the road beside that trail, since I lived near the hospital. I saw a LOT of heavily armed police on my way, but since the local airport is there too, I thought it was just a homeland security training exercise and didn't know there was anything up until someone in the parking lot told me classes were cancelled.

I had a few things to do in my studio, so I went there and then started hearing all the rumors of where the gunman was. People in the building where I was had a range of reaction from perfect calm to severe anxiety but eventually the police warned everyone to leave and we all did. I went back to my apartment which was in a wooded area not far from either the hospital of where the gunman had last been seen and realized as I was driving up that I had left my door unlocked, that I lived in a nearly perfect hiding place, and that it would have been well known as that by locals possibly including that person. I was quite relieved to find my home was empty, but I entered very carefully and looked in all possible hiding places before feeling relaxed. I've never left my home unlocked since that day.

It's going to be a LONG time before I'm ready for any sort of school shooting humor.

edited to add:

Seung-Hui Cho used two guns in his murder spree. One of them was a Glock.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 03:13 AM
I think the reason Sid's cool and Sam isn't is because, people look at what Sid did as somewhat of an accident since he was high on heroin. We don't know of any drugs that Sam did while there yet, not that it's impossible, because he did have access to some drugs, but it was well known that Sid was usually high on heroin and so was Nancy. When you're high on a drug like that, to you nothing is reality, and things don't seem as serious. so i can def. see someone killing someone else while on Heroin and not even knowing that they are doing it.
Sam on the other hand would have had to have been high for at least 4 days straight to have just happened to be high when the preacher came over, but that's not impossible either.
Just my opinion.

So if Sam were a junkie he'd be cool like Sid? How about if he swallowed a fist full of pills before the murders?

I don't think this is the reason.

I remember quite clearly that at the time very similar complaints were made about punk as have been made here about horrorcore.

It's not musical. It condones and encourages violence. Sounds bad. The artists have no musical abilities. Events attract a bad crowd. Fans are drug users/abusers and involved in crime and petty theft.

The early punks relished the extremity of their appearance and their bad reputation and the effect it had on "normal" people around Berkeley.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 03:17 AM
"rubbin' on your feet"

that's funny!

DM I kind of like those songs. . .

Careful now, next thing you know you'll be ordering an SKR charm necklace.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 03:19 AM
blou,

Laugh or cry. Laugh or cry.

Peace,

D.

Heroine
12-03-2009, 03:29 AM
So if Sam were a junkie he'd be cool like Sid? How about if he swallowed a fist full of pills before the murders?

I don't think this is the reason.

I remember quite clearly that at the time very similar complaints were made about punk as have been made here about horrorcore.

It's not musical. It condones and encourages violence. Sounds bad. The artists have no musical abilities. Events attract a bad crowd. Fans are drug users/abusers and involved in crime and petty theft.

The early punks relished the extremity of their appearance and their bad reputation and the effect it had on "normal" people around Berkeley.

BTW I didn't mean that I thought Sid was cool, and I'm just figuratively speaking. Also Sid didn't kill 4 people. It just seems different to me somehow. :)

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 03:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Iq9Vc768fg

This is the track ericclimbs and I will be bumping as we pull up to ziggy's 12/12/12 b-day party.

Jesikah1
12-03-2009, 04:56 AM
Here are some articles regarding Sid and Nancy taken from a site about Nancy Spungen.
http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm (http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm)
If I remember correctly Sid was initially a fan of the Sex Pistols who then became a member so I guess that could parallel Sam's story a bit, but otherwise I don't see the connection.
Horrorcore on the other hand does seem to mimic the outrageous antics of the early punk scene (Nazi symbolism anyone) based on what I know of both, and like all scenes usually mimic the hierarchies and sociological aspects of the mainstream that they deplore.
The horrorcore scene with all its hypocrisy, ridiculousness and self involvement just feels familiar somehow, despite never listening to this kind of music, probably because it is essentially like most scenes that have come before. I am interested to see how much attachment players in horrorcore will give themselves once trials begin etc...

PS sorry to be so off topic and random.

wadahoot
12-03-2009, 05:14 AM
Well....here's my Party Boy credentials

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=30886772

My, my! Not only do you have rhythm, and can do cartwheels but you even put the stool back and push it in properly! A gentleman that can boooogie down! :bananapowerslide:

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 10:47 AM
Here are some articles regarding Sid and Nancy taken from a site about Nancy Spungen.
http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm (http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm)
If I remember correctly Sid was initially a fan of the Sex Pistols who then became a member so I guess that could parallel Sam's story a bit, but otherwise I don't see the connection.
Horrorcore on the other hand does seem to mimic the outrageous antics of the early punk scene (Nazi symbolism anyone) based on what I know of both, and like all scenes usually mimic the hierarchies and sociological aspects of the mainstream that they deplore.
The horrorcore scene with all its hypocrisy, ridiculousness and self involvement just feels familiar somehow, despite never listening to this kind of music, probably because it is essentially like most scenes that have come before. I am interested to see how much attachment players in horrorcore will give themselves once trials begin etc...

PS sorry to be so off topic and random.

Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.

nakedmanjoe
12-03-2009, 10:52 AM
My, my! Not only do you have rhythm, and can do cartwheels but you even put the stool back and push it in properly! A gentleman that can boooogie down! :bananapowerslide:

ah shucks.:blushing:

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:10 AM
Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.

...the things you point out as similar between punk and horrorcore are things i appreciate about horrorcore....just don't like the beats....as far as one or the other being "cool",i don't know i never really got that word,shouldn't something "cool" be something that does not evoke strong emotions one way or the other?....as far as kids one day in the future seeing sam as an icon,i highly doubt it,he wasn't established as an "artist",you have to be already famous if you are going to be legendary for killing yourself or someone else....and again sid killed nancy....it was not selfish.....what sam did was selfish....

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:18 AM
...the things you point out as similar between punk and horrorcore are things i appreciate about horrorcore....just don't like the beats....as far as one or the other being "cool",i don't know i never really got that word,shouldn't something "cool" be something that does not evoke strong emotions one way or the other?....as far as kids one day in the future seeing sam as an icon,i highly doubt it,he wasn't established as an "artist",you have to be already famous if you are going to be legendary for killing yourself or someone else....and again sid killed nancy....it was not selfish.....what sam did was selfish....

Sid was "established as an artist"?

And yet his band mate says he was in the hospital and didn't even play on their most influential record.

Also, IMO, heroin addiction is generally pretty selfish. I also don't understand the heroism or selflessness attached to the murder of his wife. He stabbed her with a knife. Did she ask him to? I wonder.

ETA: They already make t-shirts with Sam's name on them...

tapu
12-03-2009, 11:19 AM
Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.




Sid was famous, and thus cool, before he killed and before he died, right? Note too that just having died is a variable here between him and Sam. Already famous, plus dead, seem like they'd get you the points in this realm. Sam's only redeeming feature is as a killer.


on edit: I see now, Claudia, that you were already arguing along these lines.

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:20 AM
"Sid was a disgusting drug addict "
...I lost many friends to drugs back then,a few died,a lot just weren't friends anymore because of it.
drug addicts are not disgusting.drugs are.

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:22 AM
Sid was "established as an artist"?

And yet his band mate says he was in the hospital and didn't even play on their most influential record.

Also, IMO, heroin addiction is generally pretty selfish. I also don't understand the heroism or selflessness attached to the murder of his wife. He stabbed her with a knife. Did she ask him to? I wonder.

....he was already famous.that's one thing he could 'nt take.
I'm very much into nancy spungen,i read everything that's written about her...and after that i came to the conclusion that yes,it was a mercy killing and yes,I'm sure nancy appreciated what he did very much and yes in the end it killed him too.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Sid was famous, and thus cool, before he killed and before he died, right? Note too that just having died is a variable here between him and Sam. Already famous, plus dead, seem like they'd get you the points in this realm. Sam's only redeeming feature is as a killer.


on edit: I see now, Claudia, that you were already arguing along these lines.

So if Sam kills himself he'll become cooler and thus more marketable?

tapu
12-03-2009, 11:24 AM
I think there are (arguable) points given for murder-suicide in Sid's case, whereas Sam just killed the pretty girls. Hey, I wonder what kind of take we'd be seeing if Sam had killed just Debra and Mark....

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:24 AM
....he was already famous.that's one thing he could 'nt take.
I'm very much into nancy spungen,i read everything that's written about her...and after that i came to the conclusion that yes,it was a mercy killing and yes,I'm sure nancy appreciated what he did very much and yes in the end it killed him too.

Do you think this argument would be convincing to people that were adults in 1979?

I don't.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:26 AM
I think there are (arguable) points given for murder-suicide in Sid's case, whereas Sam just killed the pretty girls. Hey, I wonder what kind of take we'd be seeing if Sam had killed just Debra and Mark....

Sam killed his former girlfriend and her friend. Sid killed his wife.

Nancy Spungen was also considered attractive FWIW.

http://www.nndb.com/people/437/000109110/nancy-spungen.jpg

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:33 AM
So if Sam kills himself he'll become cooler and thus more marketable?

yes,i think so...especially if he came out with a heartwrenching statement of how he loved emma and things along those lines...again,i don't understand the world "cooler" but he'd definetely have more of a chance that people would think of him in the future...

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:36 AM
Sam killed his former girlfriend and her friend. Sid killed his wife.

Nancy Spungen was also considered attractive FWIW.

http://www.nndb.com/people/437/000109110/nancy-spungen.jpg

sid and nancy were not married.what does attractive have to do with it?
emma never wanted to die.nancy did.
nancy was in so much pain.emma was not.
sam took 4 innocent lives and kept his.
sid died.
sid may not have killed nancy.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:37 AM
yes,i think so...especially if he came out with a heartwrenching statement of how he loved emma and things along those lines...again,i don't understand the world "cooler" but he'd definetely have more of a chance that people would think of him in the future...

Cooler in the sense that someone would wear a t-shirt with Sid on it as a fashion statement.

I am fairly certain I could find a random heroin addict that had killed his wife in prison. Would you wear a shirt with his image on it? No you wouldn't.

And yet "Sid is God" and his image adorns the chests of thousands of hipsters around the world. That's what I mean by cool.

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:37 AM
Do you think this argument would be convincing to people that were adults in 1979?

I don't.

...i see what you're saying.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:38 AM
sid and nancy were not married.what does attractive have to do with it?
emma never wanted to die.nancy did.
nancy was in so much pain.emma was not.
sam took 4 innocent lives and kept his.
sid died.
sid may not have killed nancy.

Tapu stated that Sam killed pretty girls. I just wanted to make the point that although she was also a junkie, Nancy was also pretty and didn't deserve to be killed.

Has Sam been found guilty already? Hmm...

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Cooler in the sense that someone would wear a t-shirt with Sid on it as a fashion statement.

I am fairly certain I could find a random heroin addict that had killed his wife in prison. Would you wear a shirt with his image on it? No you wouldn't.

And yet "Sid is God" and his image adorns the chests of thousands of hipsters around the world. That's what I mean by cool.

"sid is god" was a joke,no i would not wear a shirt of a random killer without knowing his story....yes,the sid and nancy story touched me very much,he may have been just passed out and did not even kill her....but i'd like to think he did love her and that's why he killed her....he did it for her.

claudicici
12-03-2009, 11:42 AM
Tapu stated that Sam killed pretty girls. I just wanted to make the point that although she was also a junkie, Nancy was also pretty and didn't deserve to be killed.

Has Sam been found guilty already? Hmm...

nancy wanted to die ,more than anything she wanted to die,she was in so much pain,she wanted to die.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:45 AM
...i see what you're saying.

Ask anyone that was the parent of a punk in 1979 how cool or heroic they think Sid was. I don't think they will agree with the consensus here.

I know my former girlfriend went punk in this era and her parents were entirely mortified. They took her to psychologists.

She actually reminds me a bit of Emma in that she was extremely pretty and the daughter of a college professor but she made herself look uglier as part of her style and lifestyle choice at the time. She cut off her hair for example. She also had a boyfriend that was in his twenties and she was 16.

If punk was any sort of political statement for her, it was a statement about boredom and privilege in suburban America. She certainly wasn't a down trodden working class kid or an anarchist or anything like that except by choice.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 11:46 AM
nancy wanted to die ,more than anything she wanted to die,she was in so much pain,she wanted to die.

Maybe if he had gotten her help instead of stabbing her she might have changed her mind. People do recover from addiction...

DoctorZ
12-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Sid was "established as an artist"?

And yet his band mate says he was in the hospital and didn't even play on their most influential record.

Also, IMO, heroin addiction is generally pretty selfish. I also don't understand the heroism or selflessness attached to the murder of his wife. He stabbed her with a knife. Did she ask him to? I wonder.

ETA: They already make t-shirts with Sam's name on them...


I believe one of the versions of the story that Sid gave (he gave many) was that Nancy had in fact asked him to kill her.

dangrsmind
12-03-2009, 12:22 PM
I believe one of the versions of the story that Sid gave (he gave many) was that Nancy had in fact asked him to kill her.

If she did, does that justify her murder?

I think we can all agree that Nancy must have been suffering, however it sounds to me like Nancy was suffering from addiction, depression and possibly also mental illness.

I guess stabbing someone does cure these conditions in a way...

Sam McCroskey was at STFW with a girl who called herself "Kinky Suicide". If he had killed her instead would that have been cooler because she "asked for it" by choosing that name?

I don't see it.

DoctorZ
12-03-2009, 12:32 PM
Why do several of Sam's charges say nolle prosequi in the court records? The court the charges appear in is Prince Edward, the charges are Robber-Felony, Grand Larceny-Felony, First Degree Murder-Felony, and No O.L.

Courts (http://www.courts.state.va.us/caseinfo/home.html)

Were these charges dropped to pursue the others, or am I completely misunderstanding this?

ETA: Actually, I looked it up wrong I think. Under circuit court it lists the murder charges and one count of Grand Larceny: Auto Theft as active.