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View Full Version : UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #3



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nursebeeme
12-17-2009, 09:43 PM
please continue here

link to thread two:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4577209&posted=1#post4577209

thread one in this case:
UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


AmandaReckonwith's photobucket of the case: http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/m...usan%20Powell/ (http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Susan%20Powell/)

fran's post on what we have so far:
UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City - Page 30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City - Page 30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Susan's face book:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=198478842187



PattyG's family presser video: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City; thread # 2



PattyG's exhaustive youtube site with all of her case videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947





please note that fran's list is not the updated one... if anyone has the updated one please pm me and I will add it

JennaLee
12-17-2009, 09:54 PM
Thanks for the new thread!

Okay, so check this comment out. It's on page 2 of comments on the following story in the Desert News, about half way down maybe. Just look for the comments around that time and it's easy to find.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705352238/Susan-Powell-would-not-have-permitted-midnight-camping-trip-family-says.html

(Colored, bolded by me)


"Focus on his wife and not on him | 4:50 p.m. Dec. 17, 2009
Re: Would not have tolerated?

"Yes, Silence...that's the key to helping find his wife..."precious silence." How come nobody else thought of that?"

First, Josh Powell hasn't remained silent but his attorney has stated that he has answered questions and given a DNA sample. He has gone out of his way to humor the police. Telling them where he camped won't help them find his wife instead it will only distract the police from a real search.

"Perhaps if the police would stop looking for clues, that would speed things up too, don't ya think?"

Maybe if the police were actually looking for her and focusing on his missing wife and less on him then he wouldn't need an attorney to contact the police to request that they send them the list of questions.

Josh Powell is obviously focused on finding his wife and is not in the mood to allow the police to take the focus off of her and place it on him when she is the one who is missing. Every day that goes by is one less day she may be found alive so I applaud him for his silence"


Now how does this poster know that Josh's attorney is contacting police to get a list of questions? Has that been stated elsewhere? This person appears to be too educated to be some random loser trying to stir the pot.

Any thoughts on if this person might be either the attorney or an assistant? The wording doesn't match the wording we've seen on Josh's website so I don't think it's him, and based on what his family's been saying I don't think it's them either.

Could be nothing though.

gliving
12-17-2009, 10:00 PM
I think he hides her in the heavy box the generator came in, loads it up, gets the kids and goes to dump her. While driving around trying to think what next, he comes up with the camping alibi. If he gets stopped or noticed along the way, he says they're just coming in from camping. Making s'mores and having a good time until weather got bad. He's still a good dad though, taking the kids on a little weekend outing because he's responsible enough to bring a generator in case of emergency. Nothing to see here Officer.

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:00 PM
I have Larry King on now, covering Susan now

nursebeeme
12-17-2009, 10:01 PM
I couldn't find a mod online to close thread two but did put in a request

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:02 PM
I think he hides her in the heavy box the generator came in, loads it up, gets the kids and goes to dump her. While driving around trying to think what next, he comes up with the camping alibi. If he gets stopped or noticed along the way, he says they're just coming in from camping. Making s'mores and having a good time until weather got bad. He's still a good dad though, taking the kids on a little weekend outing because he's responsible enough to bring a generator in case of emergency. Nothing to see here Officer.

good observation...........wonder where that box is now!!!

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:05 PM
Mr. Cox says he is fairly close to JP

I noticd JP in TV interview backs away from the mike.

Mr. Cox doesnt want to speculate about JP, but believes LE

Friend says he is not surprised by POI.............going down right path!

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:05 PM
Susan would of gone to a friends house if she knew there would be a problem!

nursebeeme
12-17-2009, 10:06 PM
just fyi for the new thread:

house was searched again with forensic teams concurrent with family presser!

and

child confirmed camping trip but le says not to put much weight into it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34460904/ns/today-today_people/

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Definately something happened, dad says...........
He is confused by the camping trip.
Mr. Cox just wants to find daughter now!
Boy, I hope he gets his wish!
The Cox family NEEDS closure, a proper burial.
Mr. Cox hasn't talked to JP since last Sunday.
Mr. Cox is hoping for the best.
He paused when LK asked him if he trusts JP.........
says he has been my SIL for 8 years and 2 grandsons...........

SusanB
12-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Thanks for the new thread - that one was getting pretty long! I missed the Larry Kinf interview - can someone tell me what happened?:innocent:

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:12 PM
just fyi for the new thread:

house was searched again with forensic teams concurrent with family presser!

and

child confirmed camping trip but le says not to put much weight into it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34460904/ns/today-today_people/

All this time has gone by, was house locked in crime scene tape etc?
Was family going in and out?
Could JP have messed with anything?
Wonder why forensic teams just came in.........why not before?
Looking for something from her journal?
Luminal?
It must be THE crime scene!

hellolisakitty
12-17-2009, 10:13 PM
Watching Larry King. Her father... just breaks my heart. He is trying so hard to not speak ill of Josh. Ugh.

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:15 PM
Thanks for the new thread - that one was getting pretty long! I missed the Larry Kinf interview - can someone tell me what happened?:innocent:

my posts 7,8,10 are Larry King

lemonmoussetart
12-17-2009, 10:18 PM
All this time has gone by, was house locked in crime scene tape etc?
Was family going in and out?
Could JP have messed with anything?
Wonder why forensic teams just came in.........why not before?
Looking for something from her journal?
Luminal?
It must be THE crime scene!

Passion, cannot find the article at this moment, but I read that LE has been in the Powell home every day since this occured.

Vegas Bride
12-17-2009, 10:19 PM
LK did not cover this for long, switched over to politics.

Here in southern Utah the sun has been out melting some of the snow, I'm hoping this will help uncover something to lead to finding Susan wherever she is.

VB

Fairy1
12-17-2009, 10:28 PM
Thank you to everyone who related the press conference today as it was happening and posted the links afterward for those of us who couldn't watch live!

Made me cry. My heart goes out to this family that surely knows Susan has been harmed.

Because of the LDS ties, this case has me thinking about a friend I had in high school. She was the youngest (by way) of a very Mormon family. The apple of their eye and their baby. She was brilliant, talented, beautiful and the sweetest girl you could ever meet. When we graduated, she was off to college in St. George, UT. She swore she wasn't getting married until she was at least 30. She wanted to get her degree and establish her career.

As it turned out, she was married just barely a year later - in the Temple -to a guy she had met at college. He was from another state and none of us knew him. He was very handsome and seemed quite charming.

Shortly after they were married, he began physically abusing her. She consulted church and family for help, but NO ONE believed or supported her. Even her adoring family. All advised her to stay in the marriage. Fortunately, this lovely young woman had a fierce independent streak and got out.

Following Susan's case, I shudder to think what might have happened if my friend had stayed in that marriage.

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:29 PM
LK did not cover this for long, switched over to politics.

Here in southern Utah the sun has been out melting some of the snow, I'm hoping this will help uncover something to lead to finding Susan wherever she is.

VB

Oh that is good news! What is your weather forecast for a few days?
Hope every hunter, Christmas tree cutter and property owner are looking around!!!

JulieR
12-17-2009, 10:33 PM
Someone fresh me here was it reported or said earlier that it looked like Josh had frost bite?

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:36 PM
LK did not cover this for long, switched over to politics.

Here in southern Utah the sun has been out melting some of the snow, I'm hoping this will help uncover something to lead to finding Susan wherever she is.

VB


Someone fresh me here was it reported or said earlier that it looked like Josh had frost bite?

On the very first thread there was a link and reported his hands were red, chapped and frostbitten. We speculated on chemical burns from cleaning to frost bites through gloves.........

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:42 PM
Are any pressers scheduled? Any more family interviews?
Fmily spokeswoman did talk of a prayer vigil.....at 7pm, tomorrow??

omegagal
12-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Thank you to everyone who related the press conference today as it was happening and posted the links afterward for those of us who couldn't watch live!

Made me cry. My heart goes out to this family that surely knows Susan has been harmed.

Because of the LDS ties, this case has me thinking about a friend I had in high school. She was the youngest (by way) of a very Mormon family. The apple of their eye and their baby. She was brilliant, talented, beautiful and the sweetest girl you could ever meet. When we graduated, she was off to college in St. George, UT. She swore she wasn't getting married until she was at least 30. She wanted to get her degree and establish her career.

As it turned out, she was married just barely a year later - in the Temple -to a guy she had met at college. He was from another state and none of us knew him. He was very handsome and seemed quite charming.

Shortly after they were married, he began physically abusing her. She consulted church and family for help, but NO ONE believed or supported her. Even her adoring family. All advised her to stay in the marriage. Fortunately, this lovely young woman had a fierce independent streak and got out.

Following Susan's case, I shudder to think what might have happened if my friend had stayed in that marriage.
There is so much social pressure to make your marriage work.... I can't begin to tell you the feelings, emotions and blatant expectations to be married you have in the church. You are treated as an outcast if you are an adult and you are single. It's one reason why so many of the young men and young women are becoming inactive, they simply don't believe in the "must get married to a return missionary as soon as you finish your first year of college". Do you know how many freshman females are at BYU and other church affiliated colleges that never return after their first year? I don't, but I bet it's very high. My X (returned from his mission) first year at BYU met a girl, asked her to marry him in a couple of months (in the Temple) and then he asked her to quit college and get a job to support him through his bachelor's and then through BYU Law School. Even after he finished Law School, he asked her to keep working until he could find "the right" job which happened to take 4 years. After a total of 17 years and one child with a VERY abusive husband, he managed to get out pretty clean. No spousal support, joint custody and still had his temple recommend so he could find another victim. Then we as women in the church are not told about the abuse. Luckily I got out barely with my soul but completely financially drained and he's on to his third victim. He just got remarried to another SLC lawyer, 42 never married, no children thinking she is vulnerable and will accept the abuse he dishes out. One day either she is going to kill him or he is going to kill her. But the cycle continues and no one in the church stops the abuser from continuing the cycle. They almost enable it.

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 10:49 PM
Oh that is good news! What is your weather forecast for a few days?
Hope every hunter, Christmas tree cutter and property owner are looking around!!!

Today in Northern Utah it was in the 40’s. It’s supposed to be that warm for
the next few days.

Vegas Bride
12-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Oh that is good news! What is your weather forecast for a few days?
Hope every hunter, Christmas tree cutter and property owner are looking around!!!

PF the extended forcast will still be winter weather, sunny but high 20's low 30's, but up around SLC it will be high 30's and low 40's.
Somehow Josh just doesn't strike me as someone who would put a lot of effort into hiding a body, I'm thinking more along the lines of Casey A.

I wonder how he's standing up to the pressure now, I imagine it's beginning to get to him.

VB

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 10:57 PM
PF the extended forcast will still be winter weather, sunny but high 20's low 30's, but up around SLC it will be high 30's and low 40's.
Somehow Josh just doesn't strike me as someone who would put a lot of effort into hiding a body, I'm thinking more along the lines of Casey A.

I wonder how he's standing up to the pressure now, I imagine it's beginning to get to him.

VB

Vegas Bride... . I agree! I think he probably pulled off to the side of the road
and dumped her.
The problem is that she could be anywhere from Nevada to Idaho!

passionflower
12-17-2009, 10:57 PM
If weather stays okay, will there be search groups? by dogs?

Texas Mist
12-17-2009, 10:59 PM
Didn't Josh owe $$ to Yellow Books in his bankruptcy filing?....and ummm - how smart is he if he made no $$ at his real estate business?


<snip>

"I definitely think he's intelligent, a very bright guy," said Charles Sipes, a real estate broker at a firm where Powell once worked. "I would say he was masterful in creating a marketing presence."

According to Sipes, Powell launched a multi-faceted approach to drum up real estate business, with a website, grocery store ads, even magnets with his name and number that went out in Yellow Books across the Salt Lake Valley.

more here

http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story?cid=67802

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:00 PM
Vegas Bride... . I agree! I think he probably pulled off to the side of the road
and dumped her.
The problem is that she could be anywhere from Nevada to Idaho!

ITA, he seems like the hurry up, lazy way guy............dumped her,
but there are revines areas there? wooded areas?
IMO, she's in the elements and not buried.
and I still feel she's close to home.
He lived there most of his life? He played there?
Any favorite spots like KC??? Childhood memories of where to hide???

SusanB
12-17-2009, 11:02 PM
Thank you to everyone who related the press conference today as it was happening and posted the links afterward for those of us who couldn't watch live!

Made me cry. My heart goes out to this family that surely knows Susan has been harmed.

Because of the LDS ties, this case has me thinking about a friend I had in high school. She was the youngest (by way) of a very Mormon family. The apple of their eye and their baby. She was brilliant, talented, beautiful and the sweetest girl you could ever meet. When we graduated, she was off to college in St. George, UT. She swore she wasn't getting married until she was at least 30. She wanted to get her degree and establish her career.

As it turned out, she was married just barely a year later - in the Temple -to a guy she had met at college. He was from another state and none of us knew him. He was very handsome and seemed quite charming.

Shortly after they were married, he began physically abusing her. She consulted church and family for help, but NO ONE believed or supported her. Even her adoring family. All advised her to stay in the marriage. Fortunately, this lovely young woman had a fierce independent streak and got out.

Following Susan's case, I shudder to think what might have happened if my friend had stayed in that marriage.

Wow. I am learning a lot about the LDS church. I have never known anyone practicing the religion. From what you are saying through your experience, now I get a better insight about this case. Of course, there are controlling men everywhere and within every religion, but the catch here is the emphasis not only on male superiority in a marriage, but also on the wife to grin and bear whatever the husband does. I am sure I am so generalizing this, but I mean in relation to being counseled by church members, and seeking help/comfort within the church. Susan probably was counseled to do her best to stick it out, and JP was supported by church members to do what he was doing.
Don't shoot me everyone, I don't mean they would approve of murder! It's just different from how I was raised, and I'm trying to grasp LDS doctrine.:waitasec:

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 11:13 PM
ITA, he seems like the hurry up, lazy way guy............dumped her,
but there are revines areas there? wooded areas?
IMO, she's in the elements and not buried.
and I still feel she's close to home.
He lived there most of his life? He played there?
Any favorite spots like KC??? Childhood memories of where to hide???

If you go to google maps and type in Utah Map and click on
satellite view you can zoom in and follow along the main freeway
I15. If you zoom in close enough you can see what it looks like
along the freeway.
Attached is a close up of an area around St. George Utah.
There are a lot of places like this just off the freeway all over Utah.
6706

omegagal
12-17-2009, 11:13 PM
Wow. I am learning a lot about the LDS church. I have never known anyone practicing the religion. From what you are saying through your experience, now I get a better insight about this case. Of course, there are controlling men everywhere and within every religion, but the catch here is the emphasis not only on male superiority in a marriage, but also on the wife to grin and bear whatever the husband does. I am sure I am so generalizing this, but I mean in relation to being counseled by church members, and seeking help/comfort within the church. Susan probably was counseled to do her best to stick it out, and JP was supported by church members to do what he was doing.
Don't shoot me everyone, I don't mean they would approve of murder! It's just different from how I was raised, and I'm trying to grasp LDS doctrine.:waitasec:
It really depends on the individual bishop as to how "in touch with the spirit" and how smart they are. My X did what's called "ward shop". When he divorced wife #1, he went to different wards and decided (I kid you not) which ward had the bishop that would put up with his behavior. Now we are supposed to go to the ward that is designated for the neighborhood we live in but somehow he got a "special allowance" to go to a different ward (tolerant bishop) because he said he had to pick up/deliver his child at a certain time on Sunday evenings with the x-wife. Well come to find out, both of those wards, the one he wanted to get in and the one he actually resided geographically in had services at the same exact time on Sundays so he was full of *^%$#. The Stake President though (one level higher than a bishop) is the same Stake President that he got away with the abuse in "church court" with. Soo.... now the current bishop has his number but X moved to Utah. After they took his temple recommend away (for 1 yr) with us (church court again!!) he moved in with his old law school buddy who guess what??? Just happens to be a bishop and gave him back his temple recommend. (That should have never happened) But hey, you really need a temple recommend if you intend to date in the church. It kinda says "I'm a good guy". Listen carefully..... that is the perfect tool for a psychopath..... it's also evil... I'm certain that Josh has been feeding his bishop more than just pancakes.....

I truly believe with all my heart that these bishops need to be trained to spot abuse within 3 to 4 interviews and then they need to send the woman to private counseling followed up by more bishop meetings until a resolution happens. I also believe that if a woman believes that she's unsafe, then she is. And if she is, then they need to help find her a safe place along with her children.

Patty G
12-17-2009, 11:16 PM
ISSUE videos are now uploading to You Tube and should be ready to view within the hour. Due to the hour, I won't be around to post them, just click on the link in my siggie to view the videos.

Texas Mist
12-17-2009, 11:31 PM
<snip>

I find it odd, some of Josh & Susan's closest friends don't support him. They talk about how abnormal he is acting. They don't seem to approve of how he's handling the situation. I would imagine my closest friends would support me, and help the public understand me, rather than join the nay-sayers. Isn't that what friends are for? It just seems odd to me.



http://www.abc4.com/content/news/blogs/story/Brian-Carlson-Oddities-about-Josh-Powell/qMZzcZgd3kOHRbNGLzaeNA.cspx

Sounds like Brian has never been betrayed by a friend. JMOOOC.

Dr.Fessel
12-17-2009, 11:32 PM
ISSUE videos are now uploading to You Tube and should be ready to view within the hour. Due to the hour, I won't be around to post them, just click on the link in my siggie to view the videos.Thank you for all you do Patty!!!!!!!!!

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:34 PM
<snip>

I find it odd, some of Josh & Susan's closest friends don't support him. They talk about how abnormal he is acting. They don't seem to approve of how he's handling the situation. I would imagine my closest friends would support me, and help the public understand me, rather than join the nay-sayers. Isn't that what friends are for? It just seems odd to me.



http://www.abc4.com/content/news/blogs/story/Brian-Carlson-Oddities-about-Josh-Powell/qMZzcZgd3kOHRbNGLzaeNA.cspx

Sounds like Brian has never been betrayed by a friend. JMOOOC.

I think Susan had the 'friends' and allot of people thought JP was wierd........
The first time I saw him talk an curl up his lip, I got the impression that he is different?????
I have never seen anyone talk with curling their lip up odd like that. Is it a smirk???

omegagal
12-17-2009, 11:36 PM
<snip>

I find it odd, some of Josh & Susan's closest friends don't support him. They talk about how abnormal he is acting. They don't seem to approve of how he's handling the situation. I would imagine my closest friends would support me, and help the public understand me, rather than join the nay-sayers. Isn't that what friends are for? It just seems odd to me.



http://www.abc4.com/content/news/blogs/story/Brian-Carlson-Oddities-about-Josh-Powell/qMZzcZgd3kOHRbNGLzaeNA.cspx

Sounds like Brian has never been betrayed by a friend. JMOOOC.
Psychopaths would not have close friends. They would only be close to the family that raised them. That would be Mr. and Mrs. Frankenstein in this case.....

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 11:36 PM
Wow. I am learning a lot about the LDS church. I have never known anyone practicing the religion. From what you are saying through your experience, now I get a better insight about this case. Of course, there are controlling men everywhere and within every religion, but the catch here is the emphasis not only on male superiority in a marriage, but also on the wife to grin and bear whatever the husband does. I am sure I am so generalizing this, but I mean in relation to being counseled by church members, and seeking help/comfort within the church. Susan probably was counseled to do her best to stick it out, and JP was supported by church members to do what he was doing.Don't shoot me everyone, I don't mean they would approve of murder! It's just different from how I was raised, and I'm trying to grasp LDS doctrine.:waitasec:

Please keep in mind that this is a few people’s opinions.

I know of people who are LDS and were in abusive relationships
that have gotten advice not to stay in the relationship due
to the abuse.
I think if anything Susan herself may have felt that due to her religion she
owed it to her kids to try and work things out but the LDS
church does not agree with or condone abuse.
Sure some LDS members may lead one to feel that things should be
covered up or worked out, and some husbands may feel they are
superior in their marriage but you can find that in all religions.

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Psychopaths would not have close friends. They would only be close to the family that raised them. That would be Mr. and Mrs. Frankenstein in this case.....

In my case...........not even close to his family!!!

omegagal
12-17-2009, 11:40 PM
Please keep in mind that this is a few people’s opinions.

I know of people who are LDS and were in abusive relationships
that have gotten advice not to stay in the relationship due
to the abuse.
I think if anything Susan herself may have felt that due to her religion she
owed it to her kids to try and work things out but the LDS
church does not agree with or condone abuse.
Sure some LDS members may lead one to feel that things should be
covered up or worked out, and some husbands may feel they are
superior in their marriage but you can find that in all religions.
No and neither does the Muslim religion....

Dr.Fessel
12-17-2009, 11:46 PM
Have Josh's parents said anything yet?

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:47 PM
I'm afraid we are surrounded by psycopaths everyday.
There are more men than women IMO.
They all follow the same patterns........
and come from all walks of life, any religion, some worse than others.
The people who can get them out of their lives are the lucky ones.
These people can be your boss, your neighbor, your husband, your best friends
husband...........the best advise is run from them.
The pschopath will make your life miserable.
they love to 'gaslight' an make you seem dumb or crazy...........RUN is the best advise.

kiki the parrot
12-17-2009, 11:47 PM
Where is this beautiful woman... mother to two boys who must miss her so badly. Like Lacy, Michelle and so many before and since, she has such a beaming smile and radiant personality... makes you wonder how jealous the husbands were of the attention given their wives. I knew such a man abusive in his marriage--would you believe me if I told you this man was even jealous of his wife's relationship w the Lord? Sick but true... many of these men like the one I mentioned are narcissists--admiration addicts. A wife who reflects well upon him is his "crowning glory" at first. But in the end even his wife is viewed as a threat... as competition for the attention supply he craves. And God forbid one day, in his eyes, she should ever "outshine" him...

:parrot:

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 11:49 PM
No and neither does the Muslim religion....

and Buddhists, and Catholics, and Jews and….
My point is I don’t think this has anything to do with the LDS religion.

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:49 PM
Do we know how many brothers and sisters JP has?
Is he the ONLY son?
The Golden boy?
youngest? oldest?

harleysnana
12-17-2009, 11:52 PM
Do we know how many brothers and sisters JP has?
Is he the ONLY son?
The Golden boy?
youngest? oldest?

Other than his sister & brother in law, I have not heard anything about
anyone else.

nursebeeme
12-17-2009, 11:54 PM
nothing at all to do with religion... it just happens to be there. We already know Josh wasn't practicing.... and perhaps that is more telling in and of itself. When did he stop going regularly? Or did he EVER go regularly? I bet he was hit and miss the entire time and this would fit with the personality we are trying to match him to. He went whenever and when it might make him look good. For those of you who are reading and went to church with Josh.. what were the patterns? When did you see him there?

passionflower
12-17-2009, 11:55 PM
and Buddhists, and Catholics, and Jews and….
My point is I don’t think this has anything to do with the LDS religion.

Sometimes the religion does have some things interesting in a case.
I think this is one (like the Amish), so we can better understand the
customs of the way the family functions. IMO

SuziQ
12-17-2009, 11:58 PM
Okay all Utah locals, I know you're gonna know what I mean when I say "The menu" lol.

omegagal
12-17-2009, 11:58 PM
and Buddhists, and Catholics, and Jews and….
My point is I don’t think this has anything to do with the LDS religion.
No, but it does have to do with the culture of the religion just the same as child abuse has been found in the Catholic context, religious abuse in Muslim context, etc. etc. It's part of the psychology of religion. It's also called oppression and we need to move away from it, but ignoring it or saying this kind of abuse doesn't have anything to do with the perpetrator and victim's particular religion and way of life is wrong and dangerous...

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 12:00 AM
Sometimes the religion does have some things interesting in a case.
I think this is one (like the Amish), so we can better understand the
customs of the way the family functions. IMO

But just because the religion may have customs does not
mean all members follow them.
In this case and what has come out IMO Josh was far from
following what the LDS church believes in regards
to being a good husband/ father. That is why I don't see that
it matters.
IMO

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 12:03 AM
when I google, the top story in this case should NOT BE about her son corroborating a camping story. he was allegedly taken from his home in the middle of the night when he should have been asleep.

Rather the media should focus on the fact that FORENSIC TRUCKS ARE BACK AT THEIR HOUSE AND HAVE TAKEN ITEMS OF INTEREST.

We ALL know where this case is going thanks to the idiot of all time: Josh Powell. Did I say it? YES. I. DID.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:04 AM
But just because the religion may have customs does not
mean all members follow them.
In this case and what has come out IMO Josh was far from
following what the LDS church believes in regards
to being a good husband/ father. That is why I don't see that
it matters.
IMO

I see so far that LDS is a strong faithful relgion.
I see JP wasn't a good follower, right?
I am wondering like most of us,
we were brought up by relgious beliefs and morals.
I think his religious upbringing my be the key to his confession.
I' m not downig any religion.
Just trying to see where he will go like Mark Hacking confessed to a brother.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:08 AM
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Experts-say-controlling-behavior-is-a-warning/tmTkRNitP0KyJfWHhIm7hg.cspx

SLC ABC 4 news........20 minutes go on google alert

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 12:09 AM
No, but it does have to do with the culture of the religion just the same as child abuse has been found in the Catholic context, religious abuse in Muslim context, etc. etc. It's part of the psychology of religion. It's also called oppression and we need to move away from it, but ignoring it or saying this kind of abuse doesn't have anything to do with the perpetrator and victim's particular religion and way of life is wrong and dangerous...

I agree with you omegagal.

I lived in Idaho for 20 years in a mormon community and I think there will be some evidence of this crime come out because of certain things having to do with the mormon church. Think about how many times the church has already come into this story from the press. Alot of people in the church knew what was going on between Susan and Josh, a lot of stories to be told.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 12:09 AM
when I google, the top story in this case should NOT BE about her son corroborating a camping story. he was allegedly taken from his home in the middle of the night when he should have been asleep.

Rather the media should focus on the fact that FORENSIC TRUCKS ARE BACK AT THEIR HOUSE AND HAVE TAKEN ITEMS OF INTEREST.

We ALL know where this case is going thanks to the idiot of all time: Josh Powell. Did I say it? YES. I. DID.
I think we can expect a media campaign by Mr. Scott Williams Esq. at this time in the game. Sorry, but I think we made up our minds way before you started with your own abuse and manipulation Mr. Williams....

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 12:10 AM
As I mentioned on the last thread, I used to live in Utah. (Cedar City, St.George, Hurricane). I finished my last year of high school there, met my ex-husband there, my daughter was born there, I am still close with my former in-laws and friends that still live there.

I just want to say, I have great respect over-all for the members of the L.D.S. church, and one would be hard-pressed to find greater family values than those in the Morman religion.

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 12:13 AM
nothing at all to do with religion... it just happens to be there. We already know Josh wasn't practicing.... and perhaps that is more telling in and of itself. When did he stop going regularly? Or did he EVER go regularly? I bet he was hit and miss the entire time and this would fit with the personality we are trying to match him to. He went whenever and when it might make him look good. For those of you who are reading and went to church with Josh.. what were the patterns? When did you see him there?

Sadly I think we have seen that churches--no particular one has a monopoly, using the term collectively here--can easily provide the ideal cover for narcissists or other abusive types seeking to prey upon women.

"Posers" I like to call them, who masquerade and assimilate into the culture in order to exploit and manipulate women. Once married, they know they can distort the church teachings and doctrine of authority and submission to their own abusive ends, while knowing if ever confronted they can rely upon church leadership itself to reinforce the husband's position by urging wives to believe for change, and remain in their abusive marriages. For it's own part, some churches make the grave error of mistakenly treating abuse in marriage as normal "marital discord," thus ensnaring women and perpetuating the cycle... probably don't wanna get me started on this tonight... JMO

:parrot:

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 12:14 AM
Ok I just have to say this. When I read the neighbor guys name that knew all about Susans and Josh's problems I cringed.....it was Peterson. LOL

omegagal
12-18-2009, 12:16 AM
I agree with you omegagal.

I lived in Idaho for 20 years in a mormon community and I think there will be some evidence of this crime come out because of certain things having to do with the mormon church. Think about how many times the church has already come into this story from the press. Alot of people in the church knew what was going on between Susan and Josh, a lot of stories to be told.
Dr Fessel - I am a convert to the church and because of that I probably have even a stronger testimony of the truths within the church. I also see the error that occurs (not within the top level leadership or within the policies) but on the individual level. I am sure the church is aware of it. They must get so many letters every year from people with broken hearts about things that have happened in their church lives.... Pornography is one of the biggest threats that the church is dealing with right now. Abuse probably closely follows that. There is evil every where. We should not close our eyes to the fact that evil always appears at first to be good. We need to recognize the evil (and not hide our heads under the sand) and confront it directly. The church is good. Very good. But we need to improve the safety of women and children and set up a way to systematically get rid of the bad, permanently. Not allow them to be forgiven over and over without any change of heart or behavior.

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Ok I just have to say this. When I read the neighbor guys name that knew all about Susans and Josh's problems I cringed.....it was Peterson. LOL
Yeah... I noticed that, too. :sick:

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 12:19 AM
I think we can expect a media campaign by Mr. Scott Williams Esq. at this time in the game. Sorry, but I think we made up our minds way before you started with your own abuse and manipulation Mr. Williams....

Mr. Williams is getting his word in -- albeit with a spin


Meanwhile, police said investigators have discussed conducting a polygraph test of Josh Powell, but no such interview has occurred.

"He is not allowing us the opportunity to interview him at length in order to verify his statements and also to get more specifics," McLachlan said. "His statements are absolutely vague."

Josh Powell's attorney, Scott Williams, disputed allegations made that his client had been uncooperative. Josh Powell has spoken to police and provided a DNA sample this week, as did several other family members. Williams, a defense attorney who often defends high-profile clients, described the DNA testing as routine in such cases. (wouldn't wanna mention anything about a search warrant for the DNA, now would ya, Mr. Williams??)

Police have not sought to restrict Powell's movements by asking him to surrender a passport, because they don't have sufficient information to make that request, McLachlan said.



http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=8995247

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 12:35 AM
they will soon enough when further forensics get back... hey Josh! Take your last trip (or at least book it in effigy) to Europe or a cruise or something. Cops are on you and they will be back to GET YOU... Whether you are on a boat on the Nile or sailing a paper boat in your bathtub.

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 12:44 AM
Dr Fessel - I am a convert to the church and because of that I probably have even a stronger testimony of the truths within the church. I also see the error that occurs (not within the top level leadership or within the policies) but on the individual level. I am sure the church is aware of it. They must get so many letters every year from people with broken hearts about things that have happened in their church lives.... Pornography is one of the biggest threats that the church is dealing with right now. Abuse probably closely follows that. There is evil every where. We should not close our eyes to the fact that evil always appears at first to be good. We need to recognize the evil (and not hide our heads under the sand) and confront it directly. The church is good. Very good. But we need to improve the safety of women and children and set up a way to systematically get rid of the bad, permanently. Not allow them to be forgiven over and over without any change of heart or behavior.

I understand the convert testimony it is powerful to members that grew up in the church. So tell me about the battle the church is having with the porn. Is this fight out in the open and might this have something to do with Susan and Josh's problems?

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 12:46 AM
I would sooo like to see vids of Josh's discussions w/ LE.

Dum-Dum Sucker
12-18-2009, 12:50 AM
Ok I just have to say this. When I read the neighbor guys name that knew all about Susans and Josh's problems I cringed.....it was Peterson. LOL

:devil: That name is like a Voo-Doo curse LOL !!!!!

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 12:58 AM
Snip by me
FORENSIC TRUCKS ARE BACK AT THEIR HOUSE AND HAVE TAKEN ITEMS OF INTEREST.

What type of stuff would they take?
Any ideas?

omegagal
12-18-2009, 12:58 AM
I understand the convert testimony it is powerful to members that grew up in the church. So tell me about the battle the church is having with the porn. Is this fight out in the open and might this have something to do with Susan and Josh's problems?
Yes it is out in the open. They have spoken about their concerns during semi-annual conference talks for years and published articles about it in the Ensign (the LDS magazine). They also speak about it on the local level. And yes, it could have something to do with the mindset of Josh. It numbs the addicted person to feeling like women are really only sexual. There's a book out written by an LDS author, Kastleman, The Drug of the New Millennium which talks about how the brain actually changes in an addicted person. Very interesting stuff.

There is a somewhat attitude of "hide your head in the sand". This could never happen in my family. Especially Utah. Utah Mormons (as I mentioned in a previous thread) really hide the ugliness of their imperfect lives and strive to "appear" perfect. That also helps the psycopath because that "isolates" the woman. She won't tell....

Good for Susan for putting this out in the open!!! I only wish I could have known her in this life. I know we would have been wonderful friends....

I know there are support groups held for women in the church that have been effected by sexual addictions (run by LDS Family Services). There are also groups for men involved in these addictions. I have been told that approximately 30% of these cases also involve abuse. I have to absolutely applaud out loud the passion, dedication, professional experience and compassion these LDS counselors have that are dealing with this. I believe that they could be a GREAT HELP in getting the church to more closely and effectively deal with these men. Some men are truly repentant, some are manipulative, cunning psychopaths that use their religion as a mask to hind their sins behind. Those are the ones that never repent but are predators in the real sense of the word.

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:00 AM
But just because the religion may have customs does not
mean all members follow them.
In this case and what has come out IMO Josh was far from
following what the LDS church believes in regards
to being a good husband/ father. That is why I don't see that
it matters.
IMO

I do wonder though... when they were in counseling... was it with their bishop or a licensed therapist? There is a difference... and many mormons will seek counseling with their bishop first. I know of more than one case where there was emotional abuse, some physical abuse (not that it matters if it is a little or a lot) and the bishop encouraged the women to try and work it out. The bishop did not make excuses for the husband or try and discount the claims - but they were encouraged to 'keep the family together' and 'do what was best for the children'.

One of those ladies was finally fed up with being told that over and over again (and nothing changing at home) and told her husband she wanted to go to a real marriage counselor (one with an actual degree)... 6 months later they were divorced - and that is what have happened way before that! The man was not attempting to change and was getting no real counseling in regards to trying to change. Every time it was about 'saving the family' and never really addressing the fact that he was saying horrible things to her and abusing her.

In that regards I think religion (in this instance the LDS church) does has something to do with it. IMHO.

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:01 AM
Yes, Josh may run but he cannot hide. I am very sure that LE is on him 24/7 so they can keep him in sight until enough evidence is accumulated to effect an arrest circumstantially, or a body is found. I agree with a prior post that he probably did a "rush" job - in other words, he just dumped her as soon as he could. I doubt if he was able to do much digging, since the weather was so bad (but he may have tried - hence the chapped hands).
My own personal concern, and I know that I keep saying it over and over, is Josh committing suicide/homicide with the boys. He is such a psycho/control freak, he may take the innocent children with him. I do not know if he has unsupervised visits. Even if LE were lurking in the shadows, it may be too late.
Now that the sun has come out and the temperature is better, hopefully two things: More people will be outside searching, and the snow will melt a little with increased exposure of the landscape.
But I also agree with the poster before, he may be losing it mentally, and is struggling with the implication of what he has done. Maybe the religion factor can come in handy - guilt and need for retribution tends to be a central focus in many religious doctrines.
OK, now hope for either a confession or a discovery tomorrow!:angel:

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:04 AM
Yes it is out in the open. They have spoken about their concerns during semi-annual conference talks for years and published articles about it in the Ensign (the LDS magazine). They also speak about it on the local level.

There is a somewhat attitude of "hide your head in the sand". This could never happen in my family. Especially Utah. Utah Mormons (as I mentioned in a previous thread) really hide the ugliness of their imperfect lives and strive to "appear" perfect. That also helps the psycopath because that "isolates" the woman. She won't tell....

Good for Susan for putting this out in the open!!! I only wish I could have known her in this life. I know we would have been wonderful friends....

I know there are support groups held for women in the church that have been effected by sexual addictions (run by LDS Family Services). There are also groups for men involved in these addictions. I have been told that approximately 30% of these cases also involve abuse. I have to absolutely applaud out loud the passion, dedication, professional experience and compassion these LDS counselors have that are dealing with this. I believe that they could be a GREAT HELP in getting the church to more closely and effective deal with these men. Some men are truly repentant, some are manipulative, cunning psychopaths that use their religion as a mask to hind behind their sins. Those are the ones that never repent but are predators in the real sense of the word.

And not too long ago a report came out that showed Utah had the highest number of paid online porn subscriptions. It might very well be true, but many folks just laughed it off saying it just showed most Utahn's were to naive to know you can get it for free - so they figure the numbers might not be all that accurate.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705288350/Utah-No-1-in-online-porn-subscriptions-report-says.html

Fairy1
12-18-2009, 01:06 AM
Wow. I am learning a lot about the LDS church. I have never known anyone practicing the religion. From what you are saying through your experience, now I get a better insight about this case. Of course, there are controlling men everywhere and within every religion, but the catch here is the emphasis not only on male superiority in a marriage, but also on the wife to grin and bear whatever the husband does. I am sure I am so generalizing this, but I mean in relation to being counseled by church members, and seeking help/comfort within the church. Susan probably was counseled to do her best to stick it out, and JP was supported by church members to do what he was doing.
Don't shoot me everyone, I don't mean they would approve of murder! It's just different from how I was raised, and I'm trying to grasp LDS doctrine.:waitasec:

I don't like to generalize - but I grew up with lots of LDS kids and have seen it first hand. In the case I mentioned earlier, these kids were only 19 at the time. WTH kind of upbringing did this boy have to be an abusive husband at that age? I'm not exagerating when I say you couldn't have met a sweeter girl. I was in school with her from the 7th grade on and I can't imagine anything she could have or would have done or said to make him hurt her. It broke my heart to know he was hitting her, but it hurt even more to know that her own family didn't believe or help her. She absolutely was their pride and joy.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:18 AM
I do wonder though... when they were in counseling... was it with their bishop or a licensed therapist? There is a difference... and many mormons will seek counseling with their bishop first. I know of more than one case where there was emotional abuse, some physical abuse (not that it matters if it is a little or a lot) and the bishop encouraged the women to try and work it out. The bishop did not make excuses for the husband or try and discount the claims - but they were encouraged to 'keep the family together' and 'do what was best for the children'.

One of those ladies was finally fed up with being told that over and over again (and nothing changing at home) and told her husband she wanted to go to a real marriage counselor (one with an actual degree)... 6 months later they were divorced - and that is what have happened way before that! The man was not attempting to change and was getting no real counseling in regards to trying to change. Every time it was about 'saving the family' and never really addressing the fact that he was saying horrible things to her and abusing her.

In that regards I think religion (in this instance the LDS church) does has something to do with it. IMHO.
I was told by my bishop, who had knowledge of husband's previous "abusive control and power" in his previous marriage to try to make my marriage work.

I believe that Susan and Josh started in marital counseling and then moved to her private counseling only. Dr. Fessel, how do I bump that theory page back up here????

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 01:23 AM
I was told by my bishop, who had knowledge of husband's previous "abusive control and power" in his previous marriage to try to make my marriage work.

I believe that Susan and Josh started in marital counseling and then moved to her private counseling only. Dr. Fessel, how do I bump that theory page back up here????

You can just go back and copy the whole thing and post it here. That is legal to do.

mayelf
12-18-2009, 01:26 AM
Anyone have the link handy of the interviews with Josh? I haven't seen them yet

SuziQ
12-18-2009, 01:28 AM
O/T, Whoa.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9072052

4 found dead in West Jordan home

Fairy1
12-18-2009, 01:28 AM
And not too long ago a report came out that showed Utah had the highest number of paid online porn subscriptions. It might very well be true, but many folks just laughed it off saying it just showed most Utahn's were to naive to know you can get it for free - so they figure the numbers might not be all that accurate.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705288350/Utah-No-1-in-online-porn-subscriptions-report-says.html

This is very interesting - along with the post earlier saying that Utah has the highest number of people on anti-depressants in the nation.

What we should remember in THIS case is not that Josh was not a regular attendee of his church, but that Susan was and she sought counseling regarding her marriage there. Surely no one - particularly Susan - believed Josh would murder her. But she obviously had some serious concerns and, it would seem, may not have been appropriately advised.

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:29 AM
I was told by my bishop, who had knowledge of husband's previous "abusive control and power" in his previous marriage to try to make my marriage work.

I believe that Susan and Josh started in marital counseling and then move to her private counseling only. Dr. Fessel, how do I bump that theory page back up here????

Ugh. I guess we can only hope that the majority of the bishops out there would not do the same thing... especially when the guy has a pattern of abuse! That is just wrong. If anything you would think the soon-to-be wife would be warned or at least counseled beforehand of the known abuse.

Although very nice guys, I have had two bishops live on my block over the years. One was a mortgage broker (or something along those lines)... and the other was somewhat of a big wig at a Fortune 500 company. Again, very nice - but certainly did not hold a degree or anything close to that in order to counsel couples (or abused wives for that matter) in crisis.

Maybe someone that is a member can explain how one becomes a bishop and if there a protocol for when they get in over their head in something of this sort. Some might not follow it... but can they/should they be recommending couples to licensed therapists? I know personally the two gals I know where never told to seek help with outside resources...

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:31 AM
O/T, Whoa.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9072052

4 found dead in West Jordan home

Oh no. Not too far from West Valley. Just the next suburb over.

Vegas Bride
12-18-2009, 01:31 AM
Okay all Utah locals, I know you're gonna know what I mean when I say "The menu" lol.

I wish "Not Killing Your Wife" was on the menu!!

VB

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 01:32 AM
I do wonder though... when they were in counseling... was it with their bishop or a licensed therapist? There is a difference... and many mormons will seek counseling with their bishop first. I know of more than one case where there was emotional abuse, some physical abuse (not that it matters if it is a little or a lot) and the bishop encouraged the women to try and work it out. The bishop did not make excuses for the husband or try and discount the claims - but they were encouraged to 'keep the family together' and 'do what was best for the children'.

One of those ladies was finally fed up with being told that over and over again (and nothing changing at home) and told her husband she wanted to go to a real marriage counselor (one with an actual degree)... 6 months later they were divorced - and that is what have happened way before that! The man was not attempting to change and was getting no real counseling in regards to trying to change. Every time it was about 'saving the family' and never really addressing the fact that he was saying horrible things to her and abusing her.

In that regards I think religion (in this instance the LDS church) does has something to do with it. IMHO.


I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, porn etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 01:32 AM
O/T, Whoa.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9072052

4 found dead in West Jordan home

Dang.

Vegas Bride
12-18-2009, 01:36 AM
ABC Nightline is also covering Susan!

VB

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 01:36 AM
Yes, Josh may run but he cannot hide. I am very sure that LE is on him 24/7 so they can keep him in sight until enough evidence is accumulated to effect an arrest circumstantially, or a body is found. I agree with a prior post that he probably did a "rush" job - in other words, he just dumped her as soon as he could. I doubt if he was able to do much digging, since the weather was so bad (but he may have tried - hence the chapped hands).
My own personal concern, and I know that I keep saying it over and over, is Josh committing suicide/homicide with the boys. He is such a psycho/control freak, he may take the innocent children with him. I do not know if he has unsupervised visits. Even if LE were lurking in the shadows, it may be too late.
Now that the sun has come out and the temperature is better, hopefully two things: More people will be outside searching, and the snow will melt a little with increased exposure of the landscape.
But I also agree with the poster before, he may be losing it mentally, and is struggling with the implication of what he has done. Maybe the religion factor can come in handy - guilt and need for retribution tends to be a central focus in many religious doctrines.
OK, now hope for either a confession or a discovery tomorrow!:angel:

(bbm) "Guilt" and "retribution," If by this you mean conviction and repentance I wouldn't hold my breath for that from an abuser, narcissist or worse if he could murder his children's mother in cold blood but that's JMO. Agree w rest of your post. :)


There are also groups for men involved in these addictions. I have been told that approximately 30% of these cases also involve abuse. I have to absolutely applaud out loud the passion, dedication, professional experience and compassion these LDS counselors have that are dealing with this. I believe that they could be a GREAT HELP in getting the church to more closely and effectively deal with these men. Some men are truly repentant, some are manipulative, cunning psychopaths that use their religion as a mask to hind their sins behind. Those are the ones that never repent but are predators in the real sense of the word.

Again, think we can safely say the murderous ones tend to fall more into the unrepentant, manipulative, cunning category. :eek:

:parrot:

SuziQ
12-18-2009, 01:38 AM
Here is a thread for the West Jordan murders.

Utah, Two adults, two children dead in murder suicide-West Jordan - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

nadjatheresa
12-18-2009, 01:38 AM
ISSUE videos are now uploading to You Tube and should be ready to view within the hour. Due to the hour, I won't be around to post them, just click on the link in my siggie to view the videos.

Can I tell you how much I appreciate your video library and how wonderful it is to be able to catch up on cases and spend some down time after everyone else is asleep watching these shows? I never get the chance to catch them on TV and it has been such a pleasure to go to your site and watch the videos.

Thank you so much for providing everyone with this amazing resource! It must take a lot of work!

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:39 AM
I think Texas Mist and Passionflower are on to something. Sounds like they have had experiences not unlike Susan or myself....

My theory of what happened is based on what I have read, seen and heard so far on this case as well as personal experiences in the church and with a psychopath. Any licensed clinicians with additional experience with psychopaths, narcissists and abuse please feel free to chime in.

Background: I think around the time Susan had her first baby things she only barely noticed in Josh's personality started becoming more distinct. The control and power issues were now at full force. (Someone on the earlier news report said Susan and Josh seemed to be doing well and were happy when they first moved to the area 5 years ago)
One of the first things an abuser will do is take the woman away from her support system (family in Washington) He has family in Utah. Obviously they did not move there because he had this wonderful, high paying career waiting for him. What he didn't expect is that Susan was strong and well liked and would develop a support system in her new community. It must have driven him wild to see how competent and happy she could find herself, especially without him being the reason for her happiness. After all she was merely an extension of himself as were "his" children.

Over the last couple of months: The power and control issues were getting worse and worse. Susan had made a couple of very smart moves. She had gotten a decent job. Josh had been telling her for some time that if she left, she would never be able to support herself. He probably said "Look at me, I can't even handle a full time job. Do you think a judge is ever going to give you enough support that you could live off it?" The psychopath always underestimates his victim. They may have started out with marital counseling but more than likely the counselor (probably from LDS Family Services) realized after a few interviews, it was an abuse issue not a marital issue. That means that Susan was probably in counseling with a private counselor as well as her bishop. Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse. Susan was probably put on either anti-depressants, anti-anxiety or sleeping pills or some combination of these. This would give Josh the opportunity to start telling people that Susan "wasn't right" or that she was "unstable". He would love to believe that but no one else was really buying into it. So things started getting worse and worse for Josh. She had to be stopped.

Currently: I think that Susan and Josh had an enormous fight or "power struggle" Saturday night or Sunday morning before church. Josh said he wasn't going to church, Susan went. Her friend Kriisi (sp?) said she didn't see Susan at church but saw her when walking home. I bet Susan was in the bishop's office telling him what had just happened. You DO see your best friends during church at least some time during the 3 hours you attend. Josh knowing his time was about out, made a plan. While Susan was at church, he took Susan's entire bottle of sleeping pills and crushed them, planning to put them in her food at dinner, then leaving with the boys for sledding to come home to find that Susan had killed herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. His plan backfired because as usual Susan messed with the plan. Instead Susan invited someone to come over after church for an early dinner. This drove Josh nuts as he had already crushed all the pills. What if Susan saw all of her pills missing???? So Josh went along with the plan. Very interesting how he didn't serve a casserole but make individual "pancakes" and scrambled eggs. I'll bet you anything that you can not taste medication in eggs or perhaps juice. Then he has to keep checking on her during dinner. This is the point where he starts getting schizoid because of the change of plans. He tells her friend that he's taking the boys sledding to show he's going to be out of the house with the boys for a while hoping that will cover his butte and get her to leave. Susan starts feeling poorly and needs to lie down. The friend leaves and he takes the boys out for a while to let his poor wife die in bed, figuring when he gets home he can put the bottle next to her bed. Only instead, when he left Susan got up out of bed, making it to the living room collapses on the floor where she proceeds to foam at the mouth or vomit. When he comes home he finds her like this. I think he's not the "good dad" as people make him out to be. Psychopaths are too lazy to be good parents. They are controlling parents. Josh would have put the kids either back in the car right away (oldest one up front as he can talk) or put them in a room by themselves while he put Susan in the van and started to clean up. He probably got all that together by 12:30. The oldest child must have known that Susan was in the back of the van, though and probably asked his dad some good questions. (that child and DNA are going to be Susan's saving grace) I think since Josh told reporters he was south and then west of SLC that Josh actually went just the opposite way, either north or east. I also think he pulled off on the side of the road and the oldest child saw "woods" or "trees" in the head lights. Not a forest, not a desert, not a heavy snowstorm but "woods/trees". Meanwhile Josh came around to the back of the van and took Susan's body out and either (must still be an active suicide plan) put her in a large body of water near a bridge or even worst put her in a sewer hole. I do think he's smart and just playing dumb. But I don't think he's brilliant and he's certainly no where near as brilliant as he thinks he is.

Also, I agree with the lip thing. It's almost a smirk of contempt for LE and the press. When he says I just want to find her, I hear him saying "and you won't find her". Listen and watch that interview by his car again. Seems like he's just evil and taunting the press.

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:40 AM
I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, porn etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.

I think part of that can be blamed on local media. It is just a fact of life around here... if you are LDS they will somehow tie it to the story. Same thing happened with Elizabeth Smart. If the media does not mention it first then the family does. Just seems to be the Utah thing to do. Sometimes I will watch the news and for no apparent reason they will mention that the person was LDS and I am left scratching my head...

And some of the people above, they might not even be religious, let alone seek out counseling at a church. I know if I ever needed to go to counseling it would be with a therapist... and if anything would ever happen to me they would not be able to tie a religion to me...

But in the end, yes.... it is just another psycho that killed his wife.

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:43 AM
Dang.

anyone know where this is?

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:43 AM
Ugh. I guess we can only hope that the majority of the bishops out there would not do the same thing... especially when the guy has a pattern of abuse! That is just wrong. If anything you would think the soon-to-be wife would be warned or at least counseled beforehand of the known abuse.

Although very nice guys, I have had two bishops live on my block over the years. One was a mortgage broker (or something along those lines)... and the other was somewhat of a big wig at a Fortune 500 company. Again, very nice - but certainly did not hold a degree or anything close to that in order to counsel couples (or abused wives for that matter) in crisis.

Maybe someone that is a member can explain how one becomes a bishop and if there a protocol for when they get in over their head in something of this sort. Some might not follow it... but can they/should they be recommending couples to licensed therapists? I know personally the two gals I know where never told to seek help with outside resources...
Most bishops are educated and employed in the world of business, law or medicine. Certainly not professional counseling. Yet, that is the first place a woman goes to for help. (there has been a Domestic Violence study done in Canada on this) By the way, the Canadians are much farther along than we are in studying abuse.

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:44 AM
How far from West Valley? Or is it like the other side of the state?

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:44 AM
anyone know where this is?

It is just the next suburb over from West Valley. Just a bit to the south. I work in West Valley and sometimes get take out in West Jordan. I get there easily within 10 minutes in decent traffic.

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:48 AM
It is just the next suburb over from West Valley. Just a bit to the south. I work in West Valley and sometimes get take out in West Jordan. I get there easily within 10 minutes in decent traffic.

The article said two adults and two children....Wonder what happened?

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 01:49 AM
I think part of that can be blamed on local media. It is just a fact of life around here... if you are LDS they will somehow tie it to the story. Same thing happened with Elizabeth Smart. If the media does not mention it first then the family does. Just seems to be the Utah thing to do. Sometimes I will watch the news and for no apparent reason they will mention that the person was LDS and I am left scratching my head...

And some of the people above, they might not even be religious, let alone seek out counseling at a church. I know if I ever needed to go to counseling it would be with a therapist... and if anything would ever happen to me they would not be able to tie a religion to me...

But in the end, yes.... it is just another psycho that killed his wife. Yeah it is hard to seperate the church from this story. Probably 99 percent of the people reporting on it, investigating it and involved in it are Mormon. It will probably be a Mormon that solves it. I also believe some evidence of the crime will be found because they are Mormon.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:50 AM
The article said two adults and two children....Wonder what happened?
SusanB - Want to take an educated guess???

Vegas Bride
12-18-2009, 01:52 AM
I think part of that can be blamed on local media. It is just a fact of life around here... if you are LDS they will somehow tie it to the story. Same thing happened with Elizabeth Smart. If the media does not mention it first then the family does. Just seems to be the Utah thing to do. Sometimes I will watch the news and for no apparent reason they will mention that the person was LDS and I am left scratching my head...

And some of the people above, they might not even be religious, let alone seek out counseling at a church. I know if I ever needed to go to counseling it would be with a therapist... and if anything would ever happen to me they would not be able to tie a religion to me...

But in the end, yes.... it is just another psycho that killed his wife.

This is very true! Many many times when the local news stations are showing a story about someone i.e. house fire, illness, accident etc, they're somehow able to put a slant on it to show if the people are Mormon or not and actually it seems to me that when they're showing someone to try and get them some support, the people are generally Mormon. dh does not watch certain news channels because they are so slanted towards Mormon issues where if something bad happens and the person who did it is Mormon, the story doesn't get covered.

VB

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:53 AM
I think Texas Mist and Passionflower are on to something. Sounds like they have had experiences not unlike Susan or myself....

My theory of what happened is based on what I have read, seen and heard so far on this case as well as personal experiences in the church and with a psychopath. Any licensed clinicians with additional experience with psychopaths, narcissists and abuse please feel free to chime in.

Background: I think around the time Susan had her first baby things she only barely noticed in Josh's personality started becoming more distinct. The control and power issues were now at full force. (Someone on the earlier news report said Susan and Josh seemed to be doing well and were happy when they first moved to the area 5 years ago)
One of the first things an abuser will do is take the woman away from her support system (family in Washington) He has family in Utah. Obviously they did not move there because he had this wonderful, high paying career waiting for him. What he didn't expect is that Susan was strong and well liked and would develop a support system in her new community. It must have driven him wild to see how competent and happy she could find herself, especially without him being the reason for her happiness. After all she was merely an extension of himself as were "his" children.

Over the last couple of months: The power and control issues were getting worse and worse. Susan had made a couple of very smart moves. She had gotten a decent job. Josh had been telling her for some time that if she left, she would never be able to support herself. He probably said "Look at me, I can't even handle a full time job. Do you think a judge is ever going to give you enough support that you could live off it?" The psychopath always underestimates his victim. They may have started out with marital counseling but more than likely the counselor (probably from LDS Family Services) realized after a few interviews, it was an abuse issue not a marital issue. That means that Susan was probably in counseling with a private counselor as well as her bishop. Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse. Susan was probably put on either anti-depressants, anti-anxiety or sleeping pills or some combination of these. This would give Josh the opportunity to start telling people that Susan "wasn't right" or that she was "unstable". He would love to believe that but no one else was really buying into it. So things started getting worse and worse for Josh. She had to be stopped.

Currently: I think that Susan and Josh had an enormous fight or "power struggle" Saturday night or Sunday morning before church. Josh said he wasn't going to church, Susan went. Her friend Kriisi (sp?) said she didn't see Susan at church but saw her when walking home. I bet Susan was in the bishop's office telling him what had just happened. You DO see your best friends during church at least some time during the 3 hours you attend. Josh knowing his time was about out, made a plan. While Susan was at church, he took Susan's entire bottle of sleeping pills and crushed them, planning to put them in her food at dinner, then leaving with the boys for sledding to come home to find that Susan had killed herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. His plan backfired because as usual Susan messed with the plan. Instead Susan invited someone to come over after church for an early dinner. This drove Josh nuts as he had already crushed all the pills. What if Susan saw all of her pills missing???? So Josh went along with the plan. Very interesting how he didn't serve a casserole but make individual "pancakes" and scrambled eggs. I'll bet you anything that you can not taste medication in eggs or perhaps juice. Then he has to keep checking on her during dinner. This is the point where he starts getting schizoid because of the change of plans. He tells her friend that he's taking the boys sledding to show he's going to be out of the house with the boys for a while hoping that will cover his butte and get her to leave. Susan starts feeling poorly and needs to lie down. The friend leaves and he takes the boys out for a while to let his poor wife die in bed, figuring when he gets home he can put the bottle next to her bed. Only instead, when he left Susan got up out of bed, making it to the living room collapses on the floor where she proceeds to foam at the mouth or vomit. When he comes home he finds her like this. I think he's not the "good dad" as people make him out to be. Psychopaths are too lazy to be good parents. They are controlling parents. Josh would have put the kids either back in the car right away (oldest one up front as he can talk) or put them in a room by themselves while he put Susan in the van and started to clean up. He probably got all that together by 12:30. The oldest child must have known that Susan was in the back of the van, though and probably asked his dad some good questions. (that child and DNA are going to be Susan's saving grace) I think since Josh told reporters he was south and then west of SLC that Josh actually went just the opposite way, either north or east. I also think he pulled off on the side of the road and the oldest child saw "woods" or "trees" in the head lights. Not a forest, not a desert, not a heavy snowstorm but "woods/trees". Meanwhile Josh came around to the back of the van and took Susan's body out and either (must still be an active suicide plan) put her in a large body of water near a bridge or even worst put her in a sewer hole. I do think he's smart and just playing dumb. But I don't think he's brilliant and he's certainly no where near as brilliant as he thinks he is.

Also, I agree with the lip thing. It's almost a smirk of contempt for LE and the press. When he says I just want to find her, I hear him saying "and you won't find her". Listen and watch that interview by his car again. Seems like he's just evil and taunting the press.

Omega, again right on the money. I bet my bottom dollar that's pretty much how it happened. Awesome analysis:dance:

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:54 AM
This is very true! Many many times when the local news stations are showing a story about someone i.e. house fire, illness, accident etc, they're somehow able to put a slant on it to show if the people are Mormon or not and actually it seems to me that when they're showing someone to try and get them some support, the people are generally Mormon. dh does not watch certain news channels because they are so slanted towards Mormon issues where if something bad happens and the person who did it is Mormon, the story doesn't get covered.

VB

KSL by any chance? :waitasec:

SusanB
12-18-2009, 01:54 AM
SusanB - Want to take an educated guess???

Girl, I don't even want to go there, but you know what I'm thinking!

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 01:55 AM
Snip by me
Seems like he's just evil and taunting the press.


I think this is how it happened also....
other than we don’t know if they were Susan’s pills…
they could have been his!

Vegas Bride
12-18-2009, 01:56 AM
KSL by any chance? :waitasec:

Wow how did you know????

:waitasec:

VB

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:57 AM
Josh Powell Very Intelligent / Halted Language (OMG that is my X to a T as well)

http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story?cid=67802

cleo612
12-18-2009, 01:58 AM
Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:58 AM
I think this is how it happened also....
other than we don’t know if they were Susan’s pills…
they could have been his!
Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

SusanB
12-18-2009, 02:01 AM
Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

Cleo, I'm right there w/ you ! someone know where they live???

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 02:02 AM
It is just the next suburb over from West Valley. Just a bit to the south. I work in West Valley and sometimes get take out in West Jordan. I get there easily within 10 minutes in decent traffic.

Here is a map that show how close.
6709

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 02:06 AM
Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

IMO
Maybe not as prescribed.

sunflowerchick
12-18-2009, 02:06 AM
How far from West Valley? Or is it like the other side of the state?

Hi everyone! So I work with someone who lives in the apartment complex where the murder suicudes took place, and we were just discussing it. It is apparently a family with 2 adults and 2 children, but it isn't tied to this case I don't think. Rumors around the complex are that this was an abusive relationship as well, and that someone called police because they were concerned that the family hadn't been seen in a while.

With regard to the conversations about LDS Bishops, these are regular men with families and such who haven't studied in any college or school to be a bishop. They hold regular everyday 9 to 5 jobs. They just simply must be "chosen and called", and then ordained as a bishop. They are not paid for what they do, and they completely volunteer their time for their calling.

In my own experiences, when I was facing difficulty with my ex-husband, the bishop referred us to a professional marriage counselor and the church helped to cover the cost since we were unable to. At no time did he encourage me to stay in an abusive situation. Quite the opposite, the church provided the resources with which to leave.

Fairy1
12-18-2009, 02:07 AM
I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, porn etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.

I really don't believe it's a religion issue. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 02:09 AM
Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

I'm sick....
I just did a white pages look up and there is a Kirk Graves
that lives in West Jordan.

sunflowerchick
12-18-2009, 02:13 AM
I'm sick....
I just did a white pages look up and there is a Kirk Graves
that lives in West Jordan.

People in the complex are saying that this may have occurred days ago, so I doubt this is related.

mayelf
12-18-2009, 02:13 AM
I noticed the brother spoke of Josh as being controlling but also said to not overuse the word.

Personal experience, not for everyone but if it has any relevance at all I'm going to throw it out there, because I saw so much talk about abusive relationships I'll give my take on it from a lesser abusive person I was partnered with a long time ago -

When I talked to my family about getting out of an abusive relationship because it was controlling. They did not support me but only because they didn't understand. I didn't understand it. The support I needed was someone to lean on and truly "support" me. I don't think my family had a clue that was what I needed. If I let go of this verbally abusive person who already had my life supported I didn't have anywhere to land. I would have fallen through the Earth. When he started to be physical was when I started to grasp the severity. I was also convinced that he blacked out when he raged at me. I was convinced he did not mean to do the things he did because he had a problem and wouldn't be able to remember. Clearly BS now. Clearly an excuse that I made up in my head for him, to make it okay. Because I just needed it to make sense. When it was the mental abuse I remember just thinking it was because I wasn't 'good' and 'worth anything'.

If someone controls every aspect of your life and also is manipulative in doing so, how do you tell people? How do you tell your family? It's IMPOSSIBLE. Church or no church, it's embarrassing, it feels wrong, it feels like it's a doable life. It's too hard to get out, not only do you know it, but in my situation at least, the person who did the controlling told me every day in ways I can't explain that I would not be able to live without him. I did not believe I could be self reliant. It feels awful and I had the worse self esteem EVER while I was being controlled by another person. And not ONLY by the X, but before them I was always controlled by my parents so I had no idea what independence was. I had never tried to have it before.

I think it's absolutely wrong to not be independent. If you are reading this and you know you have to depend on someone else to do whatever then you should really really do the hardest thing you will ever do and take your independence. Be independent and learn how to be independent which I PROMISE is the hardest thing to do in life, but it's by far the most rewarding thing you could ever do in your entire life. I would break down and become SEVERELY depressed when I couldn't start a lawnmower. But now, I can't start my lawnmower (its a rusty broke-down dumb thing) but I know I can get a friend's help and still I'm independent. I decide how loud I talk. I decide where my TV goes in my house. I decide if I'm going to compromise with another person. And I just think it's crucial that every human being understands every human being deserves the right to do what they need to do. (speaking only of HEALTHY needs)


And YES they really do say things like "Do you really think the Judge would ever let you have your child with No money and No place to live?" "I'm going to take our child and you will never see him again if you...(fill in blank)" They really do play every card they can to make it seem impossible to your self esteem that you could really succeed in a life without them.

I still deal with this person since we have a child together, but luckily the finalization of court really helped.

eta
I think it's basically the UNKNOWN factor that is the scariest factor of it all. According to his threats, I should be living a life of hell someplace not knowing where my son is, as the court appointed him since he was going to make up lies that I did so and so, and blah blah. It's really just threats because I have full custody of our son and am living very content. But I believed every single thing he said could come true. I also believed he was some sort of psychopath at one point. Now I'm just happy that things worked out and no one is dead in a ditch.

I'm not saying Josh in this case caused harm to his wife. I don't know that. I just know that it is possible that abuse can be overlooked by family and friends and churches and be labeled a "dispute" or "disagreement".

omegagal
12-18-2009, 02:16 AM
I really don't believe it's a religion issue. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.
Yes, I'm sure their Mormon lifestyle of a patriarchal based religion where men are told they "can be Gods" and where women drop out of college to allow their husbands to continue their educations while women are expected to stay at home and crochet (okay how many 28 year old non LDS woman out there crochet, grow vegetables, can and bake their own bread??) has nothing to do with any of this.......

Of course it has something to do with it... any psychologist will tell you someone whose entire life revolves around their religion will be effected by the cultural side of it as well....

As Fairy1 says, It is what it is...

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 02:25 AM
My theory of what happened is based on what I have read, seen and heard so far on this case as well as personal experiences in the church and with a psychopath. Any licensed clinicians with additional experience with psychopaths, narcissists and abuse please feel free to chime in.

Background: I think around the time Susan had her first baby things she only barely noticed in Josh's personality started becoming more distinct. The control and power issues were now at full force. (Someone on the earlier news report said Susan and Josh seemed to be doing well and were happy when they first moved to the area 5 years ago)
One of the first things an abuser will do is take the woman away from her support system (family in Washington) He has family in Utah. Obviously they did not move there because he had this wonderful, high paying career waiting for him. What he didn't expect is that Susan was strong and well liked and would develop a support system in her new community. It must have driven him wild to see how competent and happy she could find herself, especially without him being the reason for her happiness. After all she was merely an extension of himself as were "his" children.

Over the last couple of months: The power and control issues were getting worse and worse. Susan had made a couple of very smart moves. She had gotten a decent job. Josh had been telling her for some time that if she left, she would never be able to support herself. He probably said "Look at me, I can't even handle a full time job. Do you think a judge is ever going to give you enough support that you could live off it?" The psychopath always underestimates his victim. They may have started out with marital counseling but more than likely the counselor (probably from LDS Family Services) realized after a few interviews, it was an abuse issue not a marital issue. That means that Susan was probably in counseling with a private counselor as well as her bishop. Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse. Susan was probably put on either anti-depressants, anti-anxiety or sleeping pills or some combination of these. This would give Josh the opportunity to start telling people that Susan "wasn't right" or that she was "unstable". He would love to believe that but no one else was really buying into it. So things started getting worse and worse for Josh. She had to be stopped.

Currently: I think that Susan and Josh had an enormous fight or "power struggle" Saturday night or Sunday morning before church. Josh said he wasn't going to church, Susan went. Her friend Kriisi (sp?) said she didn't see Susan at church but saw her when walking home. I bet Susan was in the bishop's office telling him what had just happened. You DO see your best friends during church at least some time during the 3 hours you attend. Josh knowing his time was about out, made a plan. While Susan was at church, he took Susan's entire bottle of sleeping pills and crushed them, planning to put them in her food at dinner, then leaving with the boys for sledding to come home to find that Susan had killed herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. His plan backfired because as usual Susan messed with the plan. Instead Susan invited someone to come over after church for an early dinner. This drove Josh nuts as he had already crushed all the pills. What if Susan saw all of her pills missing???? So Josh went along with the plan. Very interesting how he didn't serve a casserole but make individual "pancakes" and scrambled eggs. I'll bet you anything that you can not taste medication in eggs or perhaps juice. Then he has to keep checking on her during dinner. This is the point where he starts getting schizoid because of the change of plans. He tells her friend that he's taking the boys sledding to show he's going to be out of the house with the boys for a while hoping that will cover his butte and get her to leave. Susan starts feeling poorly and needs to lie down. The friend leaves and he takes the boys out for a while to let his poor wife die in bed, figuring when he gets home he can put the bottle next to her bed. Only instead, when he left Susan got up out of bed, making it to the living room collapses on the floor where she proceeds to foam at the mouth or vomit. When he comes home he finds her like this. I think he's not the "good dad" as people make him out to be. Psychopaths are too lazy to be good parents. They are controlling parents. Josh would have put the kids either back in the car right away (oldest one up front as he can talk) or put them in a room by themselves while he put Susan in the van and started to clean up. He probably got all that together by 12:30. The oldest child must have known that Susan was in the back of the van, though and probably asked his dad some good questions. (that child and DNA are going to be Susan's saving grace) I think since Josh told reporters he was south and then west of SLC that Josh actually went just the opposite way, either north or east. I also think he pulled off on the side of the road and the oldest child saw "woods" or "trees" in the head lights. Not a forest, not a desert, not a heavy snowstorm but "woods/trees". Meanwhile Josh came around to the back of the van and took Susan's body out and either (must still be an active suicide plan) put her in a large body of water near a bridge or even worst put her in a sewer hole. I do think he's smart and just playing dumb. But I don't think he's brilliant and he's certainly no where near as brilliant as he thinks he is.

Also, I agree with the lip thing. It's almost a smirk of contempt for LE and the press. When he says I just want to find her, I hear him saying "and you won't find her". Listen and watch that interview by his car again. Seems like he's just evil and taunting the press.

Please tell me this was posted previously... that, or I was having a religious premonition lolol... :crazy: :waitasec:


Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse.


Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

Not sure whether he was strictly NPD or possibly sociopath, but believe me when I tell you... they will manipulate every intervention they are offered.

Dr. Peck's book is an eye-opener. Dr. Sam Vaknin's "Malignant Self-Love" is also a great study on pathological narcissism. JMO

:parrot:

omegagal
12-18-2009, 02:31 AM
Please tell me this was posted previously... that, or I was having a religious premonition lolol... :crazy: :waitasec:





Not sure whether he was strictly NPD or possibly sociopath, but believe me when I tell you... they will manipulate every intervention they are offered.

Dr. Peck's book is an eye-opener. Dr. Sam Vaknin's "Malignant Self-Love" is also a great study on pathological narcissism. JMO

:parrot:
Yes, previously posted as someone wanted to know my previous discussion on background. Good find on Sam Vadkin. There is a great video with Sam Vadkin in "I, Psychopath" on the following website

http://unrighteous-dominion.com

Fairy1
12-18-2009, 02:35 AM
Yes, I'm sure their Mormon lifestyle of a patriarchal based religion where men are told they "can be Gods" and where woman drop out of college to allow their husbands to continue their educations while woman are expected to stay at home and crochet (okay how many 28 year old non LDS woman out there crochet, grow vegetables, can and bake their own bread??) has nothing to do with any of this.......

Of course it has something to do with... any psychologist will tell you someone whose entire life revolves around their religion will be effected by the cultural side of it as well....

As Fairy1 says, It is what it is...

That's so funny! I actually do crochet and grow my own vegetables - tho I stopped baking bread long ago! :crazy: I also smoke and drink and work full-time and my DH is not controlling - nor can I be controlled.

That being said....while my ex was not controlling, per se, he did categorically destroy my life via drinking and gambling. It took me a looooong time to leave - much longer than anyone who knows me would have thought. I had two babies and no where really to go. I did tell my family, with whom I was very close. But they loved him and didn't want to believe it was as bad as it was. For the most part, they advised me to stay. But I didn't and eventually, they saw why.

We're not LDS - or anything else, but that's the way it went down. I don't want to say my loving family didn't support me, but it did take a while....

Seeing Susan's family today at the PC was difficult. They are obviously in pain and so worried. As I said before, I doubt anyone in Susan's life ever imagined Josh would kill her, but it seems plenty of people knew there were serious problems in the marriage. IMO, no amount of any religion can fix some things.

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 02:39 AM
Hi everyone! So I work with someone who lives in the apartment complex where the murder suicudes took place, and we were just discussing it. It is apparently a family with 2 adults and 2 children, but it isn't tied to this case I don't think. Rumors around the complex are that this was an abusive relationship as well, and that someone called police because they were concerned that the family hadn't been seen in a while.

With regard to the conversations about LDS Bishops, these are regular men with families and such who haven't studied in any college or school to be a bishop. They hold regular everyday 9 to 5 jobs. They just simply must be "chosen and called", and then ordained as a bishop. They are not paid for what they do, and they completely volunteer their time for their calling.

In my own experiences, when I was facing difficulty with my ex-husband, the bishop referred us to a professional marriage counselor and the church helped to cover the cost since we were unable to. At no time did he encourage me to stay in an abusive situation. Quite the opposite, the church provided the resources with which to leave.

(bbm) This is encouraging to hear, as I posted it is only "some" churches which fail to address the issue or respond to the cries for help appropriately and I'm relieved and grateful that you were truly helped in a time of need.


I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, porn etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.


IB]I really don't believe it's a religion issue[/B]. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.

AFAIC religion is just another tool in a manipulator's "repertoire," or weapon in the abuser's "arsenal." I was clear to emphasize right off the bat that my own observations weren't exclusive to any one particular faith but I was speaking collectively. I have not noticed anyone bashing. JMO

:parrot:

Kimster
12-18-2009, 02:41 AM
Mayelf, I am so glad you are with us to share your story and give hope to someone who might need that bump to move forward like you did! :blowkiss:


As for the Mormon part...my mom's family were all Mormons and I am not at all. My family history goes back to when Joseph Smith was alive and yes, some of my ancestors were polygamists back in the 1800s. However, there isn't one person in my family history who believed that abuse was allowed. NEVER. In fact, I was told by my grandparents never to let a man hit me - EVER.

I think abusers will use whatever means they can to make excuses for their behavior. Religion would be just one excuse.

Melanie
12-18-2009, 02:47 AM
Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

Bingo. Didn't Scott Peterson say in a televised interview - "I don't use drugs, I don't even take asprin" -- something to that effect. I don't have a link, but that's what my memory is telling me.

Mel

Steely Dan
12-18-2009, 02:47 AM
And not too long ago a report came out that showed Utah had the highest number of paid online porn subscriptions. It might very well be true, but many folks just laughed it off saying it just showed most Utahn's were to naive to know you can get it for free - so they figure the numbers might not be all that accurate.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705288350/Utah-No-1-in-online-porn-subscriptions-report-says.html

Here's the actual report; http://people.hbs.edu/bedelman/papers/redlightstates.pdf

IMO, sexual urges are let out one way or another. Repression makes wanting all the more necessary. :twocents:


This is very true! Many many times when the local news stations are showing a story about someone i.e. house fire, illness, accident etc, they're somehow able to put a slant on it to show if the people are Mormon or not and actually it seems to me that when they're showing someone to try and get them some support, the people are generally Mormon. dh does not watch certain news channels because they are so slanted towards Mormon issues where if something bad happens and the person who did it is Mormon, the story doesn't get covered.

VB

With all due respect it seems the LDS covers up a lot of stuff about Joseph Smith too. The LDS seems, IMO, to play down JS and focus more on Brigham Young.

I live a stones throw away from Palmyra where the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith of the solid gold plates buried 1400 years ago under a rock on a nearby hillside. Moroni instructed Joseph to never show these plates to anyone and it was from these solid gold plates that he was able to write the Book of Mormon.

Every year they have the Hill Cumorah Pageant. I've never gone but I might in 2010. I think it would be interesting.

http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/Program.aspx

Kimster
12-18-2009, 02:52 AM
Steely Dan, what you wrote is interesting and I'll bet we could have fun discussing that topic. However, we aren't to discuss religions on WS due to MAJOR problems in the past. I think we used to even have a religion forum way back when that was shut down. Just letting you know before the thread gets too far off topic. :)

JennaLee
12-18-2009, 02:55 AM
Whoa! OT side note! I just noticed that I've received quite a few responses to my previous Utah info request. Dang that tiny little notification bar. I always forget it's there!

Since many who responded are likely reading this thread, allow me to throw out a quick thanks and let y'all know that I'll read each response in detail and reply tomorrow when my brain is fresh. It's nearly 1:00 AM here and while not quite to the point of dropping off, I am starting to feel stupid. You know, kind of like I haven't slept in 17 hours...

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 02:57 AM
Here's the actual report; http://people.hbs.edu/bedelman/papers/redlightstates.pdf

IMO, sexual urges are let out one way or another. Repression makes wanting all the more necessary. :twocents:



With all due respect it seems the LDS covers up a lot of stuff about Joseph Smith too. The LDS seems, IMO, to play down JS and focus more on Brigham Young.

I live a stones throw away from Palmyra where the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith of the solid gold plates buried 1400 years ago under a rock on a nearby hillside. Moroni instructed Joseph to never show these plates to anyone and it was from these solid gold plates that he was able to write the Book of Mormon.

Every year they have the Hill Cumorah Pageant. I've never gone but I might in 2010. I think it would be interesting.

http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/Program.aspx

I have a friend that lives close to you and she goes to it. She says it is a great show.

Steely Dan
12-18-2009, 02:58 AM
Mayelf, I am so glad you are with us to share your story and give hope to someone who might need that bump to move forward like you did! :blowkiss:


As for the Mormon part...my mom's family were all Mormons and I am not at all. My family history goes back to when Joseph Smith was alive and yes, some of my ancestors were polygamists back in the 1800s. However, there isn't one person in my family history who believed that abuse was allowed. NEVER. In fact, I was told by my grandparents never to let a man hit me - EVER.

I think abusers will use whatever means they can to make excuses for their behavior. Religion would be just one excuse.

If I had a daughter I'd tell her that the first time a man lays a hand on her in anger and/or is verbally abusive she needs to break off the relationship immediately. The longer a woman stays the more power the man gains. I also believe that doing that makes it easier for the man to disconnect. JMO

Too many women think (In my best fawning) "I can change him". Thanks a lot Hollywood. Trust me 1 in a 1000 men may change but a woman is fighting a severe uphill battle at her own peril. Stick with the guys who are nice and supportive and loving from the beginning. 'Nuff said.

Steely Dan
12-18-2009, 03:01 AM
Steely Dan, what you wrote is interesting and I'll bet we could have fun discussing that topic. However, we aren't to discuss religions on WS due to MAJOR problems in the past. I think we used to even have a religion forum way back when that was shut down. Just letting you know before the thread gets too far off topic. :)

I can't send you a private message for some reason. :waitasec:

omegagal
12-18-2009, 03:01 AM
That's so funny! I actually do crochet and grow my own vegetables - tho I stopped baking bread long ago! :crazy: I also smoke and drink and work full-time and my DH is not controlling - nor can I be controlled.

That being said....while my ex was not controlling, per se, he did categorically destroy my life via drinking and gambling. It took me a looooong time to leave - much longer than anyone who knows me would have thought. I had two babies and no where really to go. I did tell my family, with whom I was very close. But they loved him and didn't want to believe it was as bad as it was. For the most part, they advised me to stay. But I didn't and eventually, they saw why.

We're not LDS - or anything else, but that's the way it went down. I don't want to say my loving family didn't support me, but it did take a while....

Seeing Susan's family today at the PC was difficult. They are obviously in pain and so worried. As I said before, I doubt anyone in Susan's life ever imagined Josh would kill her, but it seems plenty of people knew there were serious problems in the marriage. IMO, no amount of any religion can fix some things.
Are you non LDS and 28 years old female??? Very interesting. Very rare...

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 03:03 AM
Catching up on today's coverage, it is so heartbreaking to see Susan's family so distraught and anguished over their loved one. No one seems surprised to hear JP became now a POI and even the BIL seems to have changed his former tune...
:parrot:

Kimster
12-18-2009, 03:04 AM
If I had a daughter I'd tell her that the first time a man lays a hand on her in anger and/or is verbally abusive she needs to break off the relationship immediately. The longer a woman stays the more power the man gains. I also believe that doing that makes it easier for the man to disconnect. JMO

Too many women think (In my best fawning) "I can change him". Thanks a lot Hollywood. Trust me 1 in a 1000 men may change but a woman is fighting a severe uphill battle at her own peril. Stick with the guys who are nice and supportive and loving from the beginning. 'Nuff said.

And I told my boys that if they ever hit a woman, I hope they go to jail!!!

kiki the parrot
12-18-2009, 03:05 AM
If I had a daughter I'd tell her that the first time a man lays a hand on her in anger and/or is verbally abusive she needs to break off the relationship immediately. The longer a woman stays the more power the man gains. I also believe that doing that makes it easier for the man to disconnect. JMO

Too many women think (In my best fawning) "I can change him". Thanks a lot Hollywood. Trust me 1 in a 1000 men may change but a woman is fighting a severe uphill battle at her own peril. Stick with the guys who are nice and supportive and loving from the beginning. 'Nuff said.

Need I ask, aren't they all pretty nice, supportive and loving... in the beginning... lol. :crazy:

:parrot:

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 03:16 AM
Let’s hope tomorrow is the day that Susan is found!

omegagal
12-18-2009, 03:16 AM
(bbm) This is encouraging to hear, as I posted it is only "some" churches which fail to address the issue or respond to the cries for help appropriately and I'm relieved and grateful that you were truly helped in a time of need.





AFAIC religion is just another tool in a manipulator's "repertoire," or weapon in the abuser's "arsenal." I was clear to emphasize right off the bat that my own observations weren't exclusive to any one particular faith but I was speaking collectively. I have not noticed anyone bashing. JMO

:parrot:
kiki the parrot - I think they meant bash and not hash, too. I haven't found anyone's postings to be bashing, offensive, objectionable or illegal. Very interesting and insightful though truly. Lots of great ideas on who/what/when/why regarding Susan's disappearance.....

gitana1
12-18-2009, 03:18 AM
Vegas Bride... . I agree! I think he probably pulled off to the side of the road
and dumped her.
The problem is that she could be anywhere from Nevada to Idaho!

I don't know. I'm kind of thinking that if he really had signs of frostbite on his hands, possibly he spent some time in the snow with a shovel in his hands or with snow in his hands, covering a body.

I just saw the press conference. The spokesperson is such an intelligent person. My heart really broke for the lovely family. I think everyone is trying to tiptoe around possibly to make sure the boys stay safe and/or to keep on Josh's good side in the hopes that he will communicate to someone. I cannot imagine how horribly scared the family must feel and heartbroken. And right before Christmas just so the holiday will forever more be linked by them to the loss of their beloved family member. It's horrific.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 03:19 AM
Again, be careful with generalities. There is nothing in the LDS Church that systemically sponsors or approves of abuse. LDS Bishops are lay ministers. The calling is typically six years, and there is no pay involved - not even a stipend. Bishops will typically spend 30-50 hours per week for their calling. This is their own time - they still maintain their jobs, and their family responsibilities.

Nobody claims the LDS Church is perfect. It's not. But I grew up in a church with a pastor that earned two to three times the average household income of those in the congregation. We would go out to his home for activities, and we were always so in awe of how beautiful/luxurious it was - a home he paid for from the tithes he collected from his congregation. This same pastor was sued about ten years ago for ignoring sexual abuse by one of his deacons. The man was raping four of his own daughters over the course of nearly a decade. All of the young women approached this pastor about the abuse at one time or another. His counsel to them was to stop wearing anything revealing around their homes, so as to stop tempting and arousing their father. The bottom line is church people are usually not counselors/therapists. An effective leader - in church, business, politics, or whatever - is someone who understands his limitations and weaknesses.

omegagal is right in that LDS Bishops should refer cases of abuse to professionals. But that is what they are supposed to do. That is what the Church instructs them to do. Unfortunately, it's not a perfect system, and some Bishops are better/more intuitive than others.

With respect to omegagal, I would argue that her experience is not the norm in the LDS Church. Unfortunately, any experience like hers is too many. I've known others that have gone through similar experiences, so I know it happens. But I also know of many, many more that have great experiences with their Bishops.

Sorry, omegagal - I hope you don't mind me providing a different perspective. I don't want to discount anything you've been through - it sounds awful. But I also don't think it would be fair to broad brush 13 million members, and probably 20,000 Bishops, based on one person's experience.
As I said earlier, my X "chose" his one bishop by Ward shopping. Funny that Bishop was soon released from that calling much earlier than the expected 6 years. Current Bishop is the wisest man I've ever met.... So my take on it, is that they are human.... ( :

I certainly haven't broad brushed anyone... but some people as I have said before would like to hide truth... it's not a good idea...

I do think that we do need to keep "on subject" though and only talk about how the "religious experience" and culture may have effected the disappearance of Susan as some people are taking honest talking personally.

DomCasual
12-18-2009, 03:25 AM
Here's the actual report; http://people.hbs.edu/bedelman/papers/redlightstates.pdf

IMO, sexual urges are let out one way or another. Repression makes wanting all the more necessary. :twocents:



With all due respect it seems the LDS covers up a lot of stuff about Joseph Smith too. The LDS seems, IMO, to play down JS and focus more on Brigham Young.

I live a stones throw away from Palmyra where the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith of the solid gold plates buried 1400 years ago under a rock on a nearby hillside. Moroni instructed Joseph to never show these plates to anyone and it was from these solid gold plates that he was able to write the Book of Mormon.

Every year they have the Hill Cumorah Pageant. I've never gone but I might in 2010. I think it would be interesting.

http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/Program.aspx

Hey, I served my mission there. The areas I lived in were Webster, North Tonawanda, downtown Buffalo, Ithaca (my favorite), Sayre, PA, and Lockport. You should check out the Hill Cumorah pageant. It's quite a show - LDS, or not.

gitana1
12-18-2009, 03:29 AM
Wow. I am learning a lot about the LDS church. I have never known anyone practicing the religion. From what you are saying through your experience, now I get a better insight about this case. Of course, there are controlling men everywhere and within every religion, but the catch here is the emphasis not only on male superiority in a marriage, but also on the wife to grin and bear whatever the husband does. I am sure I am so generalizing this, but I mean in relation to being counseled by church members, and seeking help/comfort within the church. Susan probably was counseled to do her best to stick it out, and JP was supported by church members to do what he was doing.
Don't shoot me everyone, I don't mean they would approve of murder! It's just different from how I was raised, and I'm trying to grasp LDS doctrine.:waitasec:

I know a lot of LDS. My brother married a girl from a practicing LDS family (she is no longer practicing and married in our Catholic church).
I find them by and large to be earnest, hardworking people whose main focus is family and who will go out of their way to help others. The LDS church is also remarkable in the lengths it goes to help its members through any rough time. The church saved my sister-in-law's family from ruin when she was young, during years in which they suffered serious economic problems. I often joke that if I found myself single, with kids and no means of supporting them, I would join the Mormons!
All joking aside, I have also found that there tends to be a cultural trend within the church that women are supposed to stay sweet, not complain, be somewhat submissive to their husbands and to try to keep the marriage together if it all possible. I can easily see that LDS women may be encouraged to work through domestic violence issues with church help instead of legal help and I think that's a mistake.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 03:30 AM
DomCasual - okay now a couple of us are curious and I'll ask.. Who are you referring to here and what did they say because we missed it???? Please provide the post... thanks so much..

Sorry, omegagal - I hope you don't mind me providing a different perspective. I don't want to discount anything you've been through - it sounds awful. But I also don't think it would be fair to broad brush 13 million members, and probably 20,000 Bishops, based on one person's experience.

SDkid
12-18-2009, 04:04 AM
First of all, I have the same feeling/knowledge of what has happened in the past i.e. Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Raven Abroah, Drew Peterson, Stebich, etc. The wife was gone. Yet, her personal belongings were left behind (purse, cell phone, etc.) The husband(s) had some weird alibi, they estranged themselves from their missing one's loved ones and did not cooperate with the authorities.

It's unfortunate that we know or feel that these women have met their fate at the hands of their husbands.

I have been wrong in assuming the best of people.

Anyways...I don't post alot, but I feel compelled to do some kind of duty to Susan's family and other missing people's and abused people's story alive.

May God Bless and May God Keep you, Websleuthers!

gitana1
12-18-2009, 04:08 AM
My apologies. I posted about the LDS before reading the whole thread and thus did not notice that some were becoming uncomfortable with the discussion turning towards the religion of the family. For the record, I really do not think Susan or Josh's religion had anything to do with why Susan may have been killed by her husband. Many many women from all walks of life hide abuse for many reasons, namely because they feel ashamed they chose such a person. In any event, it does seem that Susan was speaking out to some degree about her marital problems so I doubt she was a wilting flower who lacked the ability to stand up for herself. JMO.

gitana1
12-18-2009, 04:12 AM
First of all, I have the same feeling/knowledge of what has happened in the past i.e. Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Raven Abroah, Drew Peterson, Stebich, etc. The wife was gone. Yet, her personal belongings were left behind (purse, cell phone, etc.) The husband(s) had some weird alibi, they estranged themselves from their missing one's loved ones and did not cooperate with the authorities.

It's unfortunate that we know or feel that these women have met their fate at the hands of their husbands.

I have been wrong in assuming the best of people.

Anyways...I don't post alot, but I feel compelled to do some kind of duty to Susan's family and other missing people's and abused people's story alive.

May God Bless and May God Keep you, Websleuthers!

I hear ya'. Susan's family really touched my heart. I feel so bad for them and hope for a miracle for them. As a side note, watching the press conference, I felt sorry that the camera man focused so intensely on their faces whenever they cried. Those seemed to be such private moments and the focus seemed so intrusive.

Melanie
12-18-2009, 05:35 AM
ISSUE videos are now uploading to You Tube and should be ready to view within the hour. Due to the hour, I won't be around to post them, just click on the link in my siggie to view the videos.

What a powerful video. When the interviewer asked Josh where he was camping, he shakes his head and said "I gotta go git my kids". Just like Judge Judy I said to myself "What do you think -- do I have STOOPID written on my forehead".?

I feel sorry for the BIL, in such denial, but you can tell he's holding out for hope -- you have to bless him during this holiday season. It's all so tragic. Susan should not be away from her babies during this time of year (not even knowing if they celebrate Christmas....do LDS's?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947

Thanks,

Mel

gitana1
12-18-2009, 05:55 AM
Does anyone want to make a guess as to a possible time for an arrest?

Melanie
12-18-2009, 07:52 AM
Does anyone want to make a guess as to a possible time for an arrest?

Today I hope - it will make for great news huh! Weekends are unusually quiet, and I can't imagine LE dragging it out until Christmas, or the other holidays so greatly celebrated ;)

Mel

badhorsie
12-18-2009, 08:32 AM
And not too long ago a report came out that showed Utah had the highest number of paid online porn subscriptions. It might very well be true, but many folks just laughed it off saying it just showed most Utahn's were to naive to know you can get it for free - so they figure the numbers might not be all that accurate.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705288350/Utah-No-1-in-online-porn-subscriptions-report-says.html


My (soon to be Ex) husband's addiction to internet porn has destroyed our marriage.
But this is not about me but about Susan, may she be found quickly

Ween
12-18-2009, 08:34 AM
I'm really hoping for an arrest today. As said before by other posters, LE must have all their all their ducks in a row so that once indicted there is no chance of losing a conviction.

I believe all religions would agree that God, Allah, etc. (whoever you see as your higher power) gave each us the gift of free will. What an individual chooses to do with this free will is their choice. One can choose to do good or one can choose to do evil.

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 10:08 AM
Powell apparently still maintains a real estate site, and lists the same address as his former employer, though he has not worked there in a year.

What's more, the site may have been updated a couple of days after Susan vanished. A link on the site directs users to a link for a real estate article, dated December 9, 2009.

Further, while Joshua Powell declared bankruptcy in 2007, listing more than $187,000 in unsecured debt, his real estate site offers "credit repair tips."

http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story?cid=67802

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 10:14 AM
Detectives and forensic investigators arrived around 1:30 p.m. and didn't leave until just before 4:00 p.m. They took swabs of something on the front steps and a window sill. They removed brown paper sacks of items from the home.

What were they looking for? And did they find it? A police spokesman isn't saying. But this was at least the 3rd visit by a crime scene investigation unit to the home since Susan Powell disappeared a week ago Sunday and it comes as Joshua Powell, Susan's husband, has been named as a person of interest in her disappearance
http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Susan-Powells-family-speaks-as-police-serve-a/NfKznDTU8kWl1-KA6JRyiw.cspx

Dal Gal
12-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Today I hope - it will make for great news huh! Weekends are unusually quiet, and I can't imagine LE dragging it out until Christmas, or the other holidays so greatly celebrated ;)

Mel

While I'm really jonesing for an arrest soon, my mind still goes back to the little boys and the horror of their first Christmas without BOTH parents. It certainly would destroy Christmas memories forevermore.

I vote for a December 27 arrest.

burbqueen
12-18-2009, 10:37 AM
Wow, I've missed all the action! LOL!

I love religious talk. I can see where both sides are coming from. I use to be a Jehovah's Witness and they have a similar system of religious authority like the LDS. The elders are the leaders of each individual congregation. The handle marriage issues, direction of the congregation, abuse, divorce, etc. They counsel and help.

There isnt problem of spousal abuse though. As a woman you can get counseling thru the church or take it to the police.

What I dont understand is the notion that if there is abuse that you have to take it up with the church first. I don't know that much about LDS. Frankly, I have some serious disagreements with the church especially when it comes to race. Whoever called the LDS church a cult, is waaay off base. People throw that word around and it is unfair. I respect all religions and try to learn more about them.

In most conservative religions there is a very male dominated culture. The man is the head of the househould etc. Some take this well, but others use it as an excuse to abuse. Then there is the notion of being the good christian wife and not complain or make waves. I think that is what Omegal is talking about.

There are no hard and fast rules. Yes, we all know that abuse is wrong, but I know there is an intense pressure to make your marriage work. JW frowned on divorce and I was taught that it was a last resort. Basically, cheatin or beatin was the only way out or if someone broke the law.

So from what I understand thru the posts. Omegal is saying that of course the church doctrine doesnt support abuse, but the culture of the religion allowed him to get away with it. However Dom is saying that there are bad apples everywhere and for us not to generalize a whole faith.

So what does this have to do with Susan? Well just like most things. IMO one of the reasons Susan stayed in an unhappy marriage had to do with her personality and possibly her religion. She was trying to work within her belief system to fix her marriage. She was doing what she thought was right according to her christian beliefs. JP did what he did cause he is not right in the head. From what we've heard he wasnt as active as Susan in the church. So religion is not the blame for his behavior, but it is a motivator for Susan. If she wasnt a Morman would she have stayed in that marriage? We will never know the answer.

As a former JW I've seen plenty of loveless marriages due to not wanting to give up their position, status, reputation, or let people down in the congregation. Of course that happens in the secular world as well, but it seems a bit more secretive and prevalent in religious communities. That is what I have a serious problem with. As a JW people married waaaay too young IMO. It was almost a given that you would get married between 20-24. I think the Mormans are like that as well. I've seen a lot of young marriages. There really isnt any dating around as a JW you found someone you like dated them and if it didnt work out then that's good, but it's not like you dated around. That was frowned upon.

The crux of the matter is that religion can help or hinder depending on the circumstance. But from what I've seen there is an intense pressure from friends, family and other members to not get divorced in certain conservative religions. You face gossip or worse, scorn. So that is how you get these women caught up in marriages where they are abused physically or emotionally or controlled like robots. You kinda get trapped in your own little bubble of religion: family and friends of the same religion and neighbors who go to church with you. Hubby and kids going to church every sunday. So you don't wanna leave your bubble and stay in a bad marriage.

lemonmoussetart
12-18-2009, 10:38 AM
Susan's father, Mr. Cox now saying "original explanation is wearing thin, and that Josh needs to speak with police."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/18/earlyshow/main5994518.shtml?tag=exclsv

LogicalMinds
12-18-2009, 10:53 AM
I personally hope Josh stops this horrible farce right now and lets the kids have their first Christmas without their parents but with their loving grandparents/extended family

believe09
12-18-2009, 11:28 AM
Hi, guys-I have been bouncing in and out of this thread....how well documented is his story in terms of mileage, cell phone pings? I mean if this is as well planned as it seems, he might have used a disposable cell phone, right? I wonder if the kids were drugged-I wonder if LE did any blood work on them or considered testing hair samples to see if he had done a dry run another time....

If he did this, she was well contained and he had a few days to get her to the location he dumped her and then back to the house.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 11:28 AM
I am really hoping the important forensic evidence come through tonight for an arrest.
Maybe if JP is arrested then he will tell where Susan is and all the family can give her the proper Burial rites she so deserves.
I think LE will make a deal, if he tells the truth.
If he is seeing a church member maybe they can get him to talk to help save his soul.

lemonmoussetart
12-18-2009, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE=burbqueen;4578820
The crux of the matter is that religion can help or hinder depending on the circumstance. But from what I've seen there is an intense pressure from friends, family and other members to not get divorced in certain conservative religions. You face gossip or worse, scorn. So that is how you get these women caught up in marriages where they are abused physically or emotionally or controlled like robots. You kinda get trapped in your own little bubble of religion: family and friends of the same religion and neighbors who go to church with you. Hubby and kids going to church every sunday. So you don't wanna leave your bubble and stay in a bad marriage.[/QUOTE]

I'm Catholic burbqueen which I think qualifies for one of those religions that frown upon divorce. :angel: But, that has changed. We all have to live in the real world. Should you speak to a priest about any type of abuse most would urge you to seek the appropriate counseling. If that doesn't work--while I can't speak for all: my priest would say get a divorce/annulment. I wouldn't feel any scorn for it. Actually, I am divorced and have never felt less than because of it. Did I wish to leave the "bubble of my Church?" My goodness no--that's where lots of my friends are. Did HE (husband)? Yes. When abusers are exposed they tend not to wish to show their faces where people are on to them.

emmcee
12-18-2009, 12:04 PM
A couple of thoughts.

I see many people here curious about women who grow and can vegetables, etc. To me, that is a basic skill that we all should have. I'm into self-suffiency or "survivalhood" as a hobby, not as a religious factor. Doing things myself - whether it's knowing how to can foods, or cut hair, or change a tire, or whatever - I simply like to be self-sufficient. I may not always DO those things, but I like to at least know how just in case I HAVE to someday. If it's a Mormon thing, I say 'good for them' since I think the whole country would be better off if people could take care of themselves.

The other thing: I think JP has a huge target on his back. Anyone here want to speculate what event is going to take him down? He WILL go down. Will LE find enough proof to go ahead and arrest him? Or will he confess (I doubt it)? Maybe a witness of some sort will appear?

ckwood32
12-18-2009, 12:05 PM
I just keep hitting refresh hoping for an update!! We need an arrest.

Amster
12-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Susan isn't isolated from the world. She is close to her family. Close friends. Active in her church. Has a good job. She, from we've heard, isn't shy about sharing her concerns about her marriage. I don't see her as incapable of making her own decisions about anything. Maybe she enjoys gardening, baking, sewing....seems like it. I don't think there is any doubt about her being a fantastic mom. Nothing I've heard or read about her leads me to believe she would stay in an abusive relationship due to her religion. Evidently, she has her reasons for trying to save her marriage. That decision may have been a fatal one.....but, the blame, if it's true, lies with one person, only. Not the church. I'm positive that the LDS church does not condone abuse by anybody. Saying that the LDS culture is somehow intertwined in a scenario where Susan was incapable of making an informed decision about staying with Josh, or that Josh took the teachings of LDS as a green light for bad behavior is just excuse making, IMO. Until someone close to Susan confirms that she felt trapped and helpless....was forced to garden, bake, sew....was advised by the church to stay in an abusive relationship...then I'm going to believe that Susan is a strong woman who had no inkling she was in danger from her husband...if it turns out he killed her. Maybe her journal will give some insight into her reasons. I sure hope so.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:15 PM
I sincerely hope heer journal was a daily diary, listing what happened at home with JP.
Maybe odd behavior, her fears.
IMO, she might of known something might happen to her but she never dreamt it was to be so soon.
A journal to take to church or lawyer.
Maybe she was closer to a divorse than we know.
After the holidays she would of left and JP saw it coming!
Susan wouldn't leave during the holidays,
she would spare others the hurt over the season. IMO

ohiogirl
12-18-2009, 12:15 PM
One article has finally said that the threat in her journal from a year ago, was a threat by Josh. Guess we will have to wait and see for ourselves.

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 12:21 PM
<snip>

Powell moved from New Mexico to Puyallup with her family when she was 10. As a teenager, she was a member of the choir and active in her church.

She and her husband married in 2001, nine months after she graduated from Rogers High.

Susan Powell then studied hairstyling in Federal Way. It became a passion, her father said.

“Once I asked her about her philosophy of life,” he said. “And she replied, ‘That people should look good.’”

Susan and Josh Powell moved to Utah about five years ago where she gave up hairstyling because it didn’t pay well, relatives said.

The couple had two boys, who became Susan’s life, her friends said.

“Every time she and I talked, it was kids, kids, kids,” family friend Michael Gifford said.

Susan Powell tried different careers, searching to find what was right, Gifford said. She earned a real-estate license but eventually found her niche in finance, working for Wells Fargo.



more here

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/998550.html

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:22 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-22460-Seattle-Family-Examiner~y2009m12d16-SUSAN-POWELL-UPDATE-Police-suspect-foul-play---husband-now-a-person-of-interest

newest google alert....I haven't even read it yet!

Taminator
12-18-2009, 12:23 PM
I just want to march up to Utah and tell Josh to tell Susan's family where she is!!

I know we all need to be patient, but I really just want him to spill it already! I keep praying for some sort of turning point. I know it's only a matter of time before he is arrested, so I'm curious as to who will be left standing by his side....

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 12:26 PM
<snip>

West Valley City » Susan Powell's family said there is "a huge red flag" waving over her husband's claim that he took their two small children camping in a wintery desert the night she disappeared.

"Susan ... would not have tolerated her children being taken out of the home after midnight to go camping in dangerously cold conditions," friend Shelby Gifford said Thursday, reading a family statement at a press conference.

.....

Officers on Thursday barricaded and searched the Powell home, dusting for fingerprints and taking items out of the house.

Detectives also are seeking cell phone records, said Assistant Police Chief Craig Black. He would not say whose cell phone records police were seeking.

....

Nielsen said since national news media have begun reporting the story, people from across the country have called in with tips about the Powell family or ideas about where Susan Powell might be. Detectives are following up on those calls, he said.

"We've got a lot more to do."

Forensic scientists spent much of their time Thursday inside Powell's house, removing four large paper bags of evidence and several vials and swabs. An investigator spent time on the front porch, analyzing the front door and window. Detectives and forensic scientists spent just over three hours in the house.

It was unclear if Joshua Powell was in the house at the time.

Nielsen did not expect any more search warrants for the home.

"I think we're done going back to the house."


more here

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_14019426

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:28 PM
<snip>

Powell moved from New Mexico to Puyallup with her family when she was 10. As a teenager, she was a member of the choir and active in her church.

She and her husband married in 2001, nine months after she graduated from Rogers High.

Susan Powell then studied hairstyling in Federal Way. It became a passion, her father said.

“Once I asked her about her philosophy of life,” he said. “And she replied, ‘That people should look good.’”

Susan and Josh Powell moved to Utah about five years ago where she gave up hairstyling because it didn’t pay well, relatives said.

The couple had two boys, who became Susan’s life, her friends said.

“Every time she and I talked, it was kids, kids, kids,” family friend Michael Gifford said.

Susan Powell tried different careers, searching to find what was right, Gifford said. She earned a real-estate license but eventually found her niche in finance, working for Wells Fargo.



more here

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/998550.html

oh boy, hairdressers are PEOPLE PLEASERS (best book I bought!) and do end up allot of times in abusive relationships............I am one.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Since someone mentione JP didn't like Susan on the computer, could he have kept a JOURNAL also?????

Truthful Lies
12-18-2009, 12:44 PM
I was married to a Mormon-raised guy for 4 years...the abuse is rampant. Goes up generations...and the church seems to look the other way.

JennaLee
12-18-2009, 12:46 PM
Snipped/bolded by me:


...(okay how many 28 year old non LDS woman out there crochet, grow vegetables, can and bake their own bread??)


I'm Protestant, not LDS and I've been doing all of the above since I was 18, by choice. (I'm 30 now.) I also own a business and work more than 40 hours a week. I'd guess I'm just as modern as any of the rest of us.

There for a while, it seemed the home making traditions of our grandmothers were becoming a lost art, but in the past few years they've been making a come back.

In fact, crochet itself has re-entered the fashion world with a vengeance with designer brands like Ugg, Chanel and 7 for All Mankind getting in the game. It could be because of the recent shift towards vintage fashions that young women are showing interest in what was previously considered a pass time of old ladies.

Either way, crochet is becoming increasingly popular with college students and even some metro-sexual guys are picking up a needle and yarn! C'mon, you don't see this every day! Check out that wicked ski hat and man bag! http://www.anniesattic.com/crochet/content.html?content_id=407

Originally, my interest in these traditional hobbies perked because previous generations had focused so much on women's rights, leading many gentleman almost scared to open the door for a lady, it seemed deliciously rebellious to return to these Suzie Homemaker type of projects. I thought I was being an individual but apparently I wasn't alone!

Taminator
12-18-2009, 12:48 PM
Susan isn't isolated from the world. She is close to her family. Close friends. Active in her church. Has a good job. She, from we've heard, isn't shy about sharing her concerns about her marriage. I don't see her as incapable of making her own decisions about anything. Maybe she enjoys gardening, baking, sewing....seems like it. I don't think there is any doubt about her being a fantastic mom. Nothing I've heard or read about her leads me to believe she would stay in an abusive relationship due to her religion. Evidently, she has her reasons for trying to save her marriage. That decision may have been a fatal one.....but, the blame, if it's true, lies with one person, only. Not the church. I'm positive that the LDS church does not condone abuse by anybody. Saying that the LDS culture is somehow intertwined in a scenario where Susan was incapable of making an informed decision about staying with Josh, or that Josh took the teachings of LDS as a green light for bad behavior is just excuse making, IMO. Until someone close to Susan confirms that she felt trapped and helpless....was forced to garden, bake, sew....was advised by the church to stay in an abusive relationship...then I'm going to believe that Susan is a strong woman who had no inkling she was in danger from her husband...if it turns out he killed her. Maybe her journal will give some insight into her reasons. I sure hope so.

I completely agree with you. I don't think religion played much of a role in relation to why she stayed. I think Josh saw how increasingly self-sufficient Susan was becoming. She had a stable job, was a great mom, could take care of herself and the boys--this threatened him. Her kids were what kept her there. I wouldn't be surprised if she was socking away some money and he found the stash. If she did and he found it, maybe he didn't say anything. That would point to premeditation. In his mind, she was the one putting up the front, pretending everything was fine and dandy, and he, not knowing when the day would be that she would come home and say "I'm done, I'm outta here" was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. He couldn't stand the thought of her possibly taking their kids away from him. After all, she has a number of friends, family, and an all-around great support system. Maybe he feared she would take the kids to WA to be close to her family.

I really believe he found out she had some sort of plan in the works. He found something out he wasn't supposed to, whether he stumbled upon it or someone slipped it out (like maybe Jovonna).

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 12:51 PM
I sincerely hope heer journal was a daily diary, listing what happened at home with JP.
Maybe odd behavior, her fears.
IMO, she might of known something might happen to her but she never dreamt it was to be so soon.
A journal to take to church or lawyer.
Maybe she was closer to a divorse than we know.
After the holidays she would of left and JP saw it coming!
Susan wouldn't leave during the holidays,
she would spare others the hurt over the season. IMO

Maybe she even told him that she was going to stay with him through the holidays (for the children, for her family, for his family) and in the new year she was D-O-N-E. Maybe is became clear to her she could make it without him (money wise and whatnot). From what it sounds like they did counseling with their bishop and then went to a professional... and nothing got better. Maybe that is what made him finally snap. He knew he had lost the power struggle. He was no longer in control...

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 12:53 PM
I just want to issue an invitation to any of Susan or Josh's family, friends, neighbors or co-workers who may have found us here at Websleuths:
Please, feel free to sign up and post!

People who are local to a missing person's hometown can offer a much needed personal perspective to our discussions here at WS, as well as provide more accurate or up-to-date information than we sometimes find in the mainstream press. Let us know you are here, and participate in our discussion; we value your perspective!

adnoid
12-18-2009, 01:02 PM
Steely Dan, what you wrote is interesting and I'll bet we could have fun discussing that topic. However, we aren't to discuss religions on WS due to MAJOR problems in the past. I think we used to even have a religion forum way back when that was shut down. Just letting you know before the thread gets too far off topic. :)

You got it.

burbqueen
12-18-2009, 01:04 PM
I'm Catholic burbqueen which I think qualifies for one of those religions that frown upon divorce. :angel: But, that has changed. We all have to live in the real world. Should you speak to a priest about any type of abuse most would urge you to seek the appropriate counseling. If that doesn't work--while I can't speak for all: my priest would say get a divorce/annulment. I wouldn't feel any scorn for it. Actually, I am divorced and have never felt less than because of it. Did I wish to leave the "bubble of my Church?" My goodness no--that's where lots of my friends are. Did HE (husband)? Yes. When abusers are exposed they tend not to wish to show their faces where people are on to them.

I wouldnt really put catholics in that group. In the catholic religion there are varying degrees of devotion amongst members and more freedom than some of the religions i'm talking about. There are Catholics that divorce all the time and its not really a big deal. I'm talking about from my experiences and others who are apart of various "non mainstream" religions or certain sects.

I know as a JW divorce is not a good thing and it IS frowned upon. it's considered a last resort for a couple. If your spouse cheats, beats you, violates gods law or mans then yes divorce is out there for you, no questions asked. But, anything other than those serious offenses then you are "advised" into doing counseling first and if you do divorce just cause the marriage isnt working lets say, then getting remarried is tough.

I believe that the LDS church, Muslims, certain Jewish sects, and various other christian religions have this stance as well. Which I dont really have a problem with. Marriage shouldnt be flippant.

As for the bubble, I've lived it. Some religions arent that bad, but there are some that stress that most of your associations be from those within your religion and not outsiders. That is what I'm talking about. Having a great church and social life is good, isolation is not. Having a bad marriage for me would cause me to get out if the guy is a controlling idiot and disrepescted me. Then i think what if I was still a JW? Would I be so quick to leave my marriage or throw my husband out if he was verbally abusive and controlling? For me, the answer is no. I would seek the elders and counselling first. Try to make my marriage work within the confines of my church and if all my family and friends were JW would their opinions differ from church doctrine? Heck no. They would all say the same thing, get help from the elders first.

There is no way the LDS would encourage anyone to stay in an abusive marriage. Also I dont think susan was abused physically at all, so far. IMO JP was a controller. Nothing to do with religion. But then again men like that use religion as a type of control. I dont know what JP did, just trying to add perspective. I've seen this in action. Men throwing scriptures out about being a dutiful wife and how the man is head of the household and ordained by Christ.

All I have been saying is that when it comes to people. Your personality and actions are shaped by how you were raised, influence of your friends and family, and your belief system. As a secular, non religious gal what I say or do might be completely different than someone who has religious beliefs and doctrine that they follow. To say that religion had nothing to do with Susans decision to work on her marriage IMO is kinda askewed. IMO it was all wrapped up into one. She was raised a Mormon was she not? And went to church so she had those values. Either way it still wasn't to blame for her death. Like I said, just adding a little perspective.

I am by no way at all knocking religion. Especially Mormons, who I have respect for and defended. People use to lump JW and Mormons all the time and call us cultist. In HS people would tease me and a Mormon kid about our beliefs. We backed each other up. Most mormons I have met are really nice people. I've had the honor of going to a Mormon temple and it was beautiful!

believe09
12-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Steely Dan, what you wrote is interesting and I'll bet we could have fun discussing that topic. However, we aren't to discuss religions on WS due to MAJOR problems in the past. I think we used to even have a religion forum way back when that was shut down. Just letting you know before the thread gets too far off topic. :)

This is the most elegant shut down I have ever seen. Really.

adnoid
12-18-2009, 01:09 PM
If I had a daughter I'd tell her that the first time a man lays a hand on her in anger and/or is verbally abusive she needs to break off the relationship immediately. The longer a woman stays the more power the man gains. I also believe that doing that makes it easier for the man to disconnect. JMO

Too many women think (In my best fawning) "I can change him". Thanks a lot Hollywood. Trust me 1 in a 1000 men may change but a woman is fighting a severe uphill battle at her own peril. Stick with the guys who are nice and supportive and loving from the beginning. 'Nuff said.

I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:15 PM
I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.
It's called traumatic bonding... and I hope you don't ever have to "understand" it. Suffice it to say, these guys don't start the physical violence on the first date....

burbqueen
12-18-2009, 01:17 PM
I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

Well, some women like drama. They are attracted to the make ups and break ups. I've never had a man hit me, but my sisters have. Some chicks dig bad boys too. I like them I admit, but not abusive ones. Jailbirds, but thats a whole nother topic!

These men can smooth talk and say the sweet nothing all the time. Make you feel special and protected. It's the whole thing about a man's man. A tough guy and you being the damsel in distress.

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 01:18 PM
I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

I was one of those gals many years ago - and there are still many aspects of it I don't understand... 10 years later. Just thankful I snapped out of it in time and will NEVER allow it to happen again.

Patty G
12-18-2009, 01:22 PM
I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

O/T Most of the men that treat women poorly don't start out that way when they first meet. Most of the time, they are extremely attentive, bring the flowers. leave cards, call and ask "how is your day", all the fluffy stuff to win a women's heart. Then once the man "wins" they slowly start to take it all back. Then little by little they start to control. In some cases, the women still feels the man loves her so much, but in reality it is controlling. Soon the woman is stuck, no job because they aren't allowed to work, they have children and no means of money if they run. Most won't go to a shelter or ask family for help and their "self"worth" is at the lowest it can be.

It's hard for women to run away from men who control them because they fear if they run, it would be harder on them and have this endless need to look over their shoulder.

If the woman eventually begins to stand her ground and gets out in the world to work, the controlling just gets worse. The woman knows she must try to do something to get money together, but then the husband might quit his job leaving her the sole provider to still keep her there.

Fairy1
12-18-2009, 01:22 PM
I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

BBM - me too.

I'm not really sure that Susan would have recognized Josh's controlling behavior in the beginning of their relationship. She's about 10 years younger than he and she married him 9 months out of high school. She probably thought of him as older and wiser and simply allowed him to take the lead.

My guess is, as she matured, became a mommy and was ultimately forced into being the breadwinner for the family, she began to see things differently. And so did he.

I am all kinds of irritated that Josh's parents haven't shown their faces at all. Have they and I missed it? Are they even still living?

Whatever they believe in terms of Josh's involvement in Susan's disappearance, she is their DIL and the mother of their grandchildren. I should think that warrants, at the very least, a written public statement.

LaLaw2000
12-18-2009, 01:23 PM
Abusive men and women are from all walks of life and economic status. A person who crosses the line and murders another human being is a murderer and a criminal. They have a mindset that enables them to do that. I prefer to think of it as a morals issue rather than a religious one.

I am very uncomfortable involving religion in this discussion. Susan is a mother of two very young boys who is missing and most likely been murdered by her husband. Josh had it in him to do murder whether he is religious or agnostic.

I have read every post here and posted a few times as to what I think happened to Susan. IMO, Susan wasn't killed by the church or because of religion. She was killed (again, IMO) by her narcissistic, controlling husband who thinks what he wants is more important than Susan or their innocent little boys. Josh was Susan's judge, jury, and executioner and now I want to see him face the real judge, jury, and executioner. I honestly and sincerely do not want to offend anyone here, but I do hope this discussion does not continue to focus on religion.

MOO

(thank you, kimster)

Steely Dan
12-18-2009, 01:25 PM
oh boy, hairdressers are PEOPLE PLEASERS (best book I bought!) and do end up allot of times in abusive relationships............I am one.

I got a haircut yesterday and the woman told me I looked ten years younger than I actually am. She got a 30% tip. :dance:


I have a daughter and I'll kill anyone that hits her. Seriously. You would read about me here.

That said, I don't know why some women are attracted to men that treat them like crap. I've seen enough of it to know it happens a lot, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

I lived with a woman for two years who's daughter was 1-3 while I was living with her. I told her when her daughter started dating I was gonna buy a gun, no bullets just a gun. I was gonna use it for cleaning before *Jennifer's dates. (WARNING; SEXISM ALERT) Since all women are late for their dates I would take the gun while he was waiting and point it at him in a way that just looked like I was still cleaning it and say; "I don't know what I'd do if anyone harmed Jennifer". :angel:

*Not her real name.

Openmyeyes
12-18-2009, 01:28 PM
With the house now considered a crime scene, and the BIL stating he thinks that JP could be arrested next week, I can't help thinking that this process is so similar to the Hacking case. Is it the result Utah LE training?

We all speculated, and came to the conclusion that it was Hacking long before Hacking confessed. His behavior was crazy, if I recall, but LE seemed to be methodically processing the evidence, even tho the circumstantial evidence was narrowing the people of interest to only one. Their subtle art of applying pressure and utilizing family to get the confession worked with Hacking, and I wish it would work with JP, but I just don't know if it will.

I would just like to know how JP got hooked up with this high profile lawyer.
Call me skeptic, but does anyone else think that his choice of a 'heavy' criminal attorney, acquired so quickly is unusual for an innocent man? I want to know who advised him prior to lawyering up.

burbqueen
12-18-2009, 01:28 PM
I lived with a woman for two years who's daughter was 1-3 while I was living with her. I told her when her daughter started dating I was gonna buy a gun, no bullets just a gun. I was gonna use it for cleaning before *Jennifer's dates. (WARNING; SEXISM ALERT) Since all women are late for their dates I would take the gun while he was waiting and point it at him in a way that just looked like I was still cleaning it and say; "I don't know what I'd do if anyone harmed Jennifer".

*Not her real name.
__________________


NOW that is funny!

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:29 PM
BBM - me too.

I'm not really sure that Susan would have recognized Josh's controlling behavior in the beginning of their relationship. She's about 10 years younger than he and she married him 9 months out of high school. She probably thought of him as older and wiser and simply allowed him to take the lead.

My guess is, as she matured, became a mommy and was ultimately forced into being the breadwinner for the family, she began to see things differently. And so did he.

I am all kinds of irritated that Josh's parents haven't shown their faces at all. Have they and I missed it? Are they even still living?

Whatever they believe in terms of Josh's involvement in Susan's disappearance, she is their DIL and the mother of their grandchildren. I should think that warrants, at the very least, a written public statement.
They also met in a singles ward activity. She would have had to be out of high school in order to attend singles ward activities.

That means that some time after high school, she met Josh, she started going out with Josh, then dating, then engagement and then marriage. No one has mentioned how long they dated before getting married but my best guess was 6-8 months and now I'm changing that to 2-4 months.

I know they used the "9 months from graduating high school to marriage" to take some emphasis away from the really short dating period but this is very typical and a huge RED FLAG in abusers. They can only behave for so long so the dating and "impressing" is usually short lived. My .02

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:46 PM
WEST JORDAN - The husband and wife were separated. The husband/father killed all 4. There had been no reports of any previous domestic trouble.....

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9073482

burbqueen
12-18-2009, 01:46 PM
They also met in a singles ward activity. She would have had to be out of high school in order to attend singles ward activities.

That means that some time after high school, she met Josh, she started going out with Josh, then dating, then engagement and then marriage. No one has mentioned how long they dated before getting married but my best guess was 6-8 months and now I'm changing that to 2-4 months.

I know they used the "9 months from graduating high school to marriage" to take some emphasis away from the really short dating period but this is very typical and a huge RED FLAG in abusers. They can only behave for so long so the dating and "impressing" is usually short lived. My .02


Ahhh yes, the honeymoon period. They are all sweet and kind. Then once they got you it's bye bye fancy dinners and hello Ramen Noodles!!

Yes I doubt most controlling abusers start out bad. It's once you get to know them or marry them. Then the change comes.

omegagal
12-18-2009, 01:49 PM
Ahhh yes, the honeymoon period. They are all sweet and kind. Then once they got you it's bye bye fancy dinners and hello Ramen Noodles!!

Yes I doubt most controlling abusers start out bad. It's once you get to know them or marry them. Then the change comes.
Tapping her index finger constantly to the tip of her nose.....

passionflower
12-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Allot of men abusers start when they move the spouse away from family, have children that they are jealous of!
They think the mother loves her children more than them.

Psychopaths can fool EVERYONE!!! Great actors!!!

Susan's dad seems quiet, sweet and passive............I believe she thought JP would be like her dad.........and then he changed!!!

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 02:27 PM
It's called traumatic bonding... and I hope you don't ever have to "understand" it. Suffice it to say, these guys don't start the physical violence on the first date....

I just wanted to add to this.
When you first meet them they seem like a really nice guy.
They know how to work people to their advantages.

OT I have an x son in law that has 5+ felonies and should be in prison.
He is good at what he does… gets up in front of the judge… turns on the
tears…makes the promises and it works!

They have this down to a T and its scary!
They know how to manipulate and play the game.
They can totally catch you off guard and they can actually get you to
believe them.

I see my x son in law in Josh.
The way he walks… talks…. things he says…
it makes me sick.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm thinking of JP sister that has him living in her house yet suspects he is the reason Susan is gone.
I feel bad because I wonder if she sleeps much at night???
It would be so frightening to me, IMO

passionflower
12-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Do we have a DOB and place of birth on Josh???

LaLaw2000
12-18-2009, 03:08 PM
I'm thinking of JP sister that has him living in her house yet suspects he is the reason Susan is gone.
I feel bad because I wonder if she sleeps much at night???It would be so frightening to me, IMO

BBM:

ITA, passionflower. I am sure that Josh and his entire family know what people are thinking of him. The majority of murders happen at night as do the majority of crimes. It is in the dark of night when trying to sleep that Josh probably relives what he has done and what people think he has done. He can probably think himself into more anger when he is alone and everyone else is sleeping.

Let's just hope that Josh does not feel he has nothing more to lose and tries to take the boys' life(s) because he cannot bear to see even a part of Susan alive when he knows he is about to be arrested just as soon as LE has enough evidence to present to the DA or States Attorney.

Josh let himself get to the point of murder once (IMO), so what is to stop him again? It is my sincere hope that Josh does not 'lose it' and take it out on those innocent little boys. It is my opinion that Josh is dangerously close to a breakdown. Not because of what he has done, but because he has been caught and cannot talk and lie his way out of it. I guarantee you Josh has some dark secrets and they may be just about ready to surface. IMO, he is feeling pretty desperate now.

MOO in that I feel Josh murdered Susan.

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 03:15 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?

passionflower
12-18-2009, 03:15 PM
BBM:

ITA, passionflower. I am sure that Josh and his entire family know what people are thinking of him. The majority of murders happen at night as do the majority of crimes. It is in the dark of night when trying to sleep that Josh probably relives what he has done and what people think he has done. He can probably think himself into more anger when he is alone and everyone else is sleeping.

Let's just hope that Josh does not feel he has nothing more to lose and tries to take the boys' life(s) because he cannot bear to see even a part of Susan alive when he knows he is about to be arrested just as soon as LE has enough evidence to present to the DA or States Attorney.

Josh let himself get to the point of murder once (IMO), so what is to stop him again? It is my sincere hope that Josh does not 'lose it' and take it out on those innocent little boys. It is my opinion that Josh is dangerously close to a breakdown. Not because of what he has done, but because he has been caught and cannot talk and lie his way out of it. I guarantee you Josh has some dark secrets and they may be just about ready to surface. IMO, he is feeling pretty desperate now.

MOO in that I feel Josh murdered Susan.

yes, ITA.......he's gonna snap soon, IMO.........better to be in jail than in the home of his sister......I am afraid for her being seen as a trader.......
I wonder if he will try to go camping with his boys again with a grim out come.........murder/suicide

passionflower
12-18-2009, 03:16 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?

nope......

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 03:18 PM
Friday morning police asked all news agencies not to destroy video of Joshua Powell. They would not say why they've made that request.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 03:19 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?


I do, I do!

SleuthyMama
12-18-2009, 03:20 PM
Nursie, what do you think that's about? That seems like a weird request to me.

mysticrose
12-18-2009, 03:21 PM
Police request media keep footage of missing woman's husband
December 18th, 2009 @ 11:44am

WEST VALLEY CITY -- Friday morning police asked all news agencies not to destroy video of Joshua Powell. They would not say why they've made that request

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062

passionflower
12-18-2009, 03:22 PM
Nursie, what do you think that's about? That seems like a weird request to me.

Maybe evidence on him, the frost bitten hands? Something on his clothes?
Scratch we didn't see, healed now??? I would say evidence to compare to now.........

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 03:22 PM
Nursie, what do you think that's about? That seems like a weird request to me.
I think it could be because he has said more to the media than to LE! Or perhaps he told LE something different than the media??

the whole thing reminds me of Scott Peterson (except I have to admit that Scott was much more eloquent when he lied to the media)

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 03:23 PM
whew.. I am glad for a new page! Those blown margins were blowing my mind!

LadyBug99
12-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Police request media keep footage of missing woman's husband
December 18th, 2009 @ 11:44am

WEST VALLEY CITY -- Friday morning police asked all news agencies not to destroy video of Joshua Powell. They would not say why they've made that request

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062



I'm so curious as to why they would request this!

lemonmoussetart
12-18-2009, 03:26 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?

mine are fine nurseBEE

passionflower
12-18-2009, 03:27 PM
Betting that things are about to happen now!!!!
dotting i's and crossing T's...............GO LE!!!

ckwood32
12-18-2009, 03:28 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?
Yes and it's driving me crazy!

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 03:31 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062


Wonder if Joshy's feeling the squeeze LE is putting on him?

I bet his brow is *very* furrowed today. He's gonna have permanent lines.

ETA: no blown margins here.

Chemaster
12-18-2009, 03:34 PM
Betting that things are about to happen now!!!!
dotting i's and crossing T's...............GO LE!!!

I would think if something happened it would be after Christmas. More evidence will surely come in by then and thus building the case. Also, IF this happens the children are going to be left without a mom and dad and they have to be considered. It is unlikely that the children would be at risks during the meantime.

JMO

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 03:36 PM
I'm so curious as to why they would request this!


Like nurse said, conflicting statements, as well as changes in appearance, clothing he has or has not worn since the mur...uhm,...dissappearance, what or who is in the background while he is on camera, different demeanor when talking with media/ police, or when he is not aware he was being recordedetc. Video could aslo be used to show state of mind upon realizing his wife is missing or to prove when and where he was at a certain time, which could be relevant if he has been doing any additional cover-up/ disposing of evidence.

Ween
12-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Do we have a DOB and place of birth on Josh???

His age is what I want to know. In every article it mentions that Susan is 28 years old, but never mentions his age.

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 03:43 PM
I would think if something happened it would be after Christmas. More evidence will surely come in by then and thus building the case. Also, IF this happens the children are going to be left without a mom and dad and they have to be considered. It is unlikely that the children would be at risks during the meantime.

JMO

Bolded by me...Yikes! how on earth can one assume that children are ever safe with someone who very likely just killed and disposed of their mother, and is so unremorseful that he coldbloodedly refuses to help her family bring her home,( or with anyone who would have him in their home, for that matter)?

LaLaw2000
12-18-2009, 03:43 PM
I hope Amanda has all the video's saved in her online album. Now I would be very interested in watching them one right after the other in the other in the sequence they were made. I'm sure she has. A BIG thank you to Amanda!

ITA on the demeanor, hands appearing to be frostbitten or badly chafed by chemicals, and statements made that may conflict what he has stated to LE.

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Josh is 38, Ween.

Chemaster
12-18-2009, 03:51 PM
Bolded by me...Yikes! how on earth can one assume that children are ever safe with someone who very likely just killed and disposed of their mother, and is so unremorseful that he coldbloodedly refuses to help her family bring her home,( or with anyone who would have him in their home, for that matter)?

If the police that they were at risk they would have already been removed. The burden of evidence is much less to temporary remove the kids from the home then it is for arresting someone for murder.

JMO

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 03:53 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?

Yes, and it is driving me crazy! Started last night for me... on and off.

LaLaw2000
12-18-2009, 04:04 PM
I am getting the feeling that this is the quiet before the storm!

TGIRecovered
12-18-2009, 04:10 PM
If the police that they were at risk they would have already been removed. The burden of evidence is much less to temporary remove the kids from the home then it is for arresting someone for murder.

JMO

I wish it were that easy Chemaster! We've seen from experience that , in almost every case, minor children remain in the care (if you can call it that) of the killer , sometimes for years, before he/ she is finally brought to justice.

People who are capable of murdering their children's mother are not emotionally well. They are not capable of good parenting; their specialty is emotional and mental manipulation and abuse, which can do nothing but damage to a vulnerable child's psyche.

I am married to a career cop, and believe me, there are many, many children who cops see every day who are not safe in their homes, and there is nothing they can do about it because knowing that the abuse is likely to occur is not enough...the courts don't step in until the damage is done, or a child is dead.

Children are not ever safe with a killer...leaving them there is a roll of the dice. (JMO as well.)

Amster
12-18-2009, 04:12 PM
On Fox now....4 year old confirms camping trip....LE captain on....4 year old didn't confirm anything...stupid media!

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 04:14 PM
Nothing new really, but talking about the search warrants... video from the noon news today on Fox 13.

http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-evidence-seized-missing-utah-mom,0,54500.story

Kateyes
12-18-2009, 04:35 PM
Somewhere in the first thread I posted that Susan's disappearance and the actions of her husband reminded me of another crime about two years ago, but I couldn't remember the victim's name. The husband in that case just looked really squirrelly (sp?) from the beginning. LE had searched the home and found nothing, but he quickly became a POI. Then, LE searched a second time and found the dismembered torso of a female in the garage. The husband had strangled the wife, dismembered her body and then scattered the pieces in the snow-coverd surrounding area. After LE had searched the home the husband retrieved the torso and brought it back to the garage, where LE found it on a second search. The guy ran, IIRC, barefooted and was caught and entered a guilty plea, and received LWOP. I finally found the case - it was Tara Grant. Lots of similarities between Tara and Susan - both were successful, well-liked and married to husbands who accomplished much less than each of them. Both husbands were controlling, both were much less accomplished than their wives, both crimes occurred during snowy winter months, both husbands lawyered up quickly, and finally, both husbands had that "I am quite crazy" look in their eyes and in their actions. I hope Susan did not suffer the same fate as Tara Grant, but the outlook is grim. The generator, the impromptu late-night camping, etc. etc. Prayers for Susan and her family.

mom_of_five
12-18-2009, 04:37 PM
I wish it were that easy Chemaster! We've seen from experience that , in almost every case, minor children remain in the care (if you can call it that) of the killer , sometimes for years, before he/ she is finally brought to justice.

People who are capable of murdering their children's mother are not emotionally well. They are not capable of good parenting; their specialty is emotional and mental manipulation and abuse, which can do nothing but damage to a vulnerable child's psyche.

I am married to a career cop, and believe me, there are many, many children who cops see every day who are not safe in their homes, and there is nothing they can do about it because knowing that the abuse is likely to occur is not enough...the courts don't step in until the damage is done, or a child is dead.


Children are not ever safe with a killer...leaving them there is a roll of the dice. (JMO as well.)


I agree, and it seems to me that the children are in more and more danger with every passing moment as Josh feels the police closing in.

gitana1
12-18-2009, 04:37 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062

They surely do not need to make that request (that news agencies not destroy any videos of Josh). They could just ask for copies of the videos. Besides, they know the news agencies would not destroy such videos when much more is sure to break in this case. News agencies keep footage for years on cases like this. I think such a request was part of a ploy to increase the pressure on one of the dumbest men in America. I hope it works, but not in a way dangerous to the babies.

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 04:39 PM
I think they are going to do something everyday to make sleeping difficult for him until the arrest.

Dr.Fessel
12-18-2009, 04:45 PM
I am getting the feeling that this is the quiet before the storm!

Me too!

Taminator
12-18-2009, 04:48 PM
A lot of the footage does not end up in the final broadcast or web edition (unless it specifically says it is raw footage. A lot of the video they may be requesting to not be destroyed is probably stuff that they edit out and eventually destroy. Stuff that would be generally unavailable to the public.

nervous_nellie
12-18-2009, 04:55 PM
A lot of the footage does not end up in the final broadcast or web edition (unless it specifically says it is raw footage. A lot of the video they may be requesting to not be destroyed is probably stuff that they edit out and eventually destroy. Stuff that would be generally unavailable to the public.

yes, raw fox just said..:)

gitana1
12-18-2009, 05:02 PM
It astounds me that these men think they can get away with the murder of their spouses. Don't they read the news?

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 05:25 PM
It astounds me that these men think they can get away with the murder of their spouses. Don't they read the news?

especially a man who lived so close to Mark Hacking & the national attention that case got. :loser:

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 05:41 PM
I wish it were that easy Chemaster! We've seen from experience that , in almost every case, minor children remain in the care (if you can call it that) of the killer , sometimes for years, before he/ she is finally brought to justice.

People who are capable of murdering their children's mother are not emotionally well. They are not capable of good parenting; their specialty is emotional and mental manipulation and abuse, which can do nothing but damage to a vulnerable child's psyche.

I am married to a career cop, and believe me, there are many, many children who cops see every day who are not safe in their homes, and there is nothing they can do about it because knowing that the abuse is likely to occur is not enough...the courts don't step in until the damage is done, or a child is dead.

Children are not ever safe with a killer...leaving them there is a roll of the dice. (JMO as well.)
I agree... just look at Drew Peterson.

Up until his recent arrest, he was suspected by many to be involved/responsible in the murder of his 3rd wife, and also the disappearance and probable murder of his 4th wife (Stacy), yet he was still raising all the children from both of these marriages.

Steely Dan
12-18-2009, 05:51 PM
does anyone else have blown margins?

Not moi.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9077062

:waitasec: Hmmm, makes ya think don't it.


Maybe evidence on him, the frost bitten hands? Something on his clothes?
Scratch we didn't see, healed now??? I would say evidence to compare to now.........

Good thinkin. :thumb:


I agree, and it seems to me that the children are in more and more danger with every passing moment as Josh feels the police closing in.

Somebody near them needs to call CPS. IIRC, CPS can't go there unless there's a call. It would then allow them to find an excuse to take the kids, I think.


It astounds me that these men think they can get away with the murder of their spouses. Don't they read the news?

The murderer's checklist;

1. Make sure we're going through a divorce with looming custody battle.

2. Increase life insurance to some ungodly amount.

3. Create alibi. (no need to spend a lot of time on this. Cops are stupid.)

4. Think of place to dump body. (once again not a lot of thought needed here.)

5. (optional) Spend yourself into a huge debt hole.

6. (optional) Rehearse 911 call.

7. (optional) Rehearse for news camera's.

8. (optional but highly recommended) Talk briefly with police and then ask for a lawyer who can tell the media; "I have no idea why the police are saying he's not cooperating. He's answered all of their questions." :rolleyes:

Angel Who Cares
12-18-2009, 06:37 PM
*Adding in one post for quick easy reference!

Susan Powell: Missing Mom's Family Speaks Out (Video)
December 18, 2009 04:21 PM EST
<snipped>
The police conducted its third sweep of the Powell home and removed some undisclosed items from the property, as well as a notebook from Susan’s work. They also questioned the 4 year old son, who confirmed the midnight camping trip, however the Police Captain cautioned against placing too much evidence on the child’s word. With very little assistance and a suspicious alibi from Josh Powell the police have officially named him a person of interest.

Article:
http://www.***********/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977953648&grpId=3659174697244816&nav=Groupspace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Missing Mom's Dad Wants Husband's Answers
Says Patience Wearing Thin with Josh Powell; Makes Plea to Susan Powell: "Where Are You?"
Dec. 18, 2009
<snipped>
Cox said Josh Powell should open up to authorities once and for all. "We've tried to stand by -- the whole family's tried to stand by Joshua and give him the time he needs to do whatever he needs," Cox told co-anchor Harry Smith, "and we're waiting for a credible answer from him, we're waiting for a credible explanation to what he knows. And he now has an attorney. He needs to give the police the information he has and he needs to help us to find Susan.

"We'be been patient. We've been supportive. We're trying to hang in there. ... The explanation he originally gave is wearing thin."

Video: Missing Mom Search Continues
Missing Mom Search Continues - CBS News Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPzC1grG5Hk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tqXzj9pPFs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_jgEBkq_1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7p8DcqH4yg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmYkfqW0TUI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU3iDmmzOE0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0poYm1Bx9hY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKEmJwEjMQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGV3PyFvjnw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCmVaIcSWKk

Article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/18/earlyshow/main5994518.shtml?tag=contentBody;cbsCarousel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Missing mom’s home searched again for clues
Husband named person of interest; ‘I think he knows something,’ dad says
updated 10:20 a.m. ET, Fri., Dec . 18, 2009
<snipped>
“We served a search warrant at the house to see if there are any physical items that could shed light on this case,” West Valley City Police Capt. Tom McLachlan told NBC News. “Those items are being processed at the state crime lab.” McLachlan would not disclose what was taken from the home during the Thursday search.

Earlier in the day on Thursday, police said the behavior of Josh Powell — who has refused to cooperate in the search for his missing wife — is not normal.

“[I would] describe him as abnormal under the circumstances,” West Valley City Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said during an interview with TODAY’s Matt Lauer. “This is not normally what we see happen.”

Today Show Video: Police search missing mom’s home 6:56
Dec. 18: Yesterday, authorities in Utah searched the home of Josh and Susan Powell, who has been missing for 11 days. This comes as police named the husband a "person of interest" in the woman's disappearance. The missing woman's father speaks to TODAY's Meredith Vieira.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34476897#34476897

Today Show video: Missing woman’s husband named ‘person of interest’: 7:58
Dec. 17: Investigators in Utah say they suspect foul play in the disappearance of 28-year-old Susan Powell nearly two weeks ago, and have named her husband a person of interest. His brother-in-law talks with TODAY's Matt Lauer.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34460813#34460813

Video: Police Suspect Foul Play In Case Of Missing Woman 3:05
Dec. 16: The husband of a missing mom in Utah has been deemed a "person of interest" in her disappearance. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34450232#34450232

Today Show Video: Husband’s DNA taken in missing-woman case 3:00
Dec. 16: Investigators in the case of a mother who went missing in Utah more than a week ago took a sample of DNA from her husband. Meanwhile, the man's sister talks about her sister-in-law's disappearance. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34443693#34443693

Today Show Video: What happened to missing Utah mom? 5:20
Dec. 15: Susan Powell has been missing for more than a week and her husband has stopped speaking to the police. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports on the investigation into her disappearance.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34428282#34428282

Today Show Video: Father speaks out in disappearance of missing woman 3:12
Dec. 15: Chuck Cox, the father of a young Utah mother who went missing more than a week ago, talks to TODAY's Natalie Morales about his daughter's family life before her disappearance and his hopes for the woman's husband and children.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34429383#34429383

Today Show video: Missing woman's husband in spotlight 1:10
Dec. 14: Utah authorities want to re-interview the husband of a missing woman. Msnbc's David Shuster reports.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34419614#34419614

Article:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/34460904/ns/today-today_people/
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Missing mom case: Story told by Susan Powell's husband a 'huge red flag'
Her friend says mom wouldn't have permitted young sons to go camping after midnight in freezing desert.
Updated: 12/18/2009 08:50:43 AM MST
<snipped>
Officers on Thursday barricaded and searched the Powell home, dusting for fingerprints and taking items out of the house.

Detectives also are seeking cell phone records, said Assistant Police Chief Craig Black. He would not say whose cell phone records police were seeking.

Susan Powell's phone was found at home, along with her purse and keys, after her disappearance, said Michael Gifford, who is married to Shelby and accompanied Susan Powell's father, Charles Cox, to Utah to help with the investigation.

Article:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14019426
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Police request media keep footage of missing woman's husband
December 18th, 2009 @ 11:44am
<snipped>
Friday morning police asked all news agencies not to destroy video of Joshua Powell. They would not say why they've made that request.

Members of Susan Powell's family say they had no indication she would have felt threatened in the marriage.

Family spokesperson Shelby Gifford said, "If we felt like Susan was in danger, as a family we would have taken steps to get her out of that situation. So some of the things you are learning this week, we are learning with you."

What role the evidence seized will play in the case is unknown as the investigation continues.

*Video Included In Article!

AUDIO: Marc Giauque reporting on the latest in the investigation
http://real.ksl.com/video/slc/3/307/30795.mp3

AUDIO: Paul Nelson reporting on Powell family press conference
http://media.bonnint.net/slc/1653/165319/16531931.mp3

AUDIO: Andrew Adams reporting on Kirk Graves' statements
http://real.ksl.com/video/slc/3/307/30796.mp3

PHOTO GALLERY:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=9062334&nid=460

Article:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9077062
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'Breaks our hearts' — Susan Powell's family concerned about the actions of her husband
Published: Thursday, Dec. 17, 2009 10:33 p.m. MST
<snipped>
The family of Susan Powell says it is deeply saddened and it "breaks our hearts" that her husband, Josh Powell, is being called a person of interest in connection with her disappearance.

But a spokeswoman said Thursday family members are not surprised, "given the events and his reaction to them in the past week."

Also Thursday, West Valley police returned to the Powell home, 6254 W. Sarah Circle, with a search warrant to look for additional evidence. Police declined to discuss what, if anything, was taken from the house.

Article:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705352238/Susan-Powell-would-not-have-permitted-midnight-camping-trip-family-says.html
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Family of missing Utah mom speaks out about husband
Posted on December 17, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Updated yesterday at 5:14 PM
<snipped>
While Josh Powell has not been named a suspect in the case, authorities have upgraded Susan Powell's disapperance to a criminal probe and say Josh Powell's "lack of cooperation" has made them increasingly suspicious of him.

"Every lead we've been offered so far would leave us to believe this is out of character (for Susan) and thus suspect foul play is involved," West Valley City Asst. Police Chief Craig Black said Wednesday.

Josh Powell said he went camping with their boys, ages 2 and 4, in subfreezing temperatures about 12:30 a.m. on Dec. 7 and returned in the evening. But he has been uncooperative in providing any details that might explain what happened to his wife, Black said.

Video: Police Treating Utah Mom As A Criminal Case
http://www.king5.com/news/Police-treating-missing-Utah-mom-as-criminal-case-79555532.html

Raw Video: Father of missing Utah woman
http://www.king5.com/video/raw/Raw-Father-of-missing-Utah-mother-speaks-79564587.html

Raw Video: Cox family statement
http://www.king5.com/video/featured-videos/Watch-Cox-family-statement-79580057.html

•Family, friends of Susan Powell's Facebook group
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=198478842187

Article:
http://www.king5.com/news/Police-treating-missing-Utah-mom-as-criminal-case-79555532.html

:angel:

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 06:51 PM
Angel Who Cares... your dedication and thouroughness, as always, is amazing! Thank you!

nursebeeme
12-18-2009, 06:52 PM
Not moi.



:waitasec: Hmmm, makes ya think don't it.



Good thinkin. :thumb:



Somebody near them needs to call CPS. IIRC, CPS can't go there unless there's a call. It would then allow them to find an excuse to take the kids, I think.



The murderer's checklist;

1. Make sure we're going through a divorce with looming custody battle.

2. Increase life insurance to some ungodly amount.

3. Create alibi. (no need to spend a lot of time on this. Cops are stupid.)

4. Think of place to dump body. (once again not a lot of thought needed here.)

5. (optional) Spend yourself into a huge debt hole.

6. (optional) Rehearse 911 call.

7. (optional) Rehearse for news camera's.

8. (optional but highly recommended) Talk briefly with police and then ask for a lawyer who can tell the media; "I have no idea why the police are saying he's not cooperating. He's answered all of their questions." :rolleyes:
Steely, I think your photobucket link is blowing the margins??

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
I truly feel that if Josh didn't have an attorney right now, he would break, and give up the information that the authorities need to find Susan.

I'm sure the attorney knows this, too, and this is the main reason he is keeping Josh on such a tight leash. The attorney is afraid Josh will 'spill all' if asked the right questions.

I know that the accussed has the right to representation, and I agree with that right. It's just so frustrating when a beautiful, sweet young woman and mother has vanished into thin air.

How heartbreaking that the man who promised 'before God', to love, honor and cherish her, the same man that should be screaming from the mountaintops, "Please, everyone, help me find my wife!", is instead hindering the investigation, keeping secrets.....

I just feel so badly for Susan, she truly deserves so much better. So does her family that obviously loves her so much.

emmcee
12-18-2009, 07:18 PM
Is there any discussion of Josh showing LE his camping gear that was supposedly used? Seems like sleeping bags, warm clothes, cooking utensils, etc. would be readily available to "prove" his outing.

As far as the 4 year old saying they went camping, kids that age don't have a real good concept of time. Maybe he was remembering another camping trip at an earlier time??? Just wondering.

There is a discussion of the case over at DeseretNews.com including some comments by someone named Wayne who claims that Josh is a good friend and he's seen him lately. Obviously I have no idea if this guy is telling the truth or not, but you might be interested in the comments there. Not sure if I am allowed to post the link or not.

adnoid
12-18-2009, 07:22 PM
...Not sure if I am allowed to post the link or not.

Not a problem.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 07:23 PM
I truly feel that if Josh didn't have an attorney right now, he would break, and give up the information that the authorities need to find Susan.

I'm sure the attorney knows this, too, and this is the main reason he is keeping Josh on such a tight leash. The attorney is afraid Josh will 'spill all' if asked the right questions.

I know that the accussed has the right to representation, and I agree with that right. It's just so frustrating when a beautiful, sweet young woman and mother has vanished into thin air.

How heartbreaking that the man who promised 'before God', to love, honor and cherish her, the same man that should be screaming from the mountaintops, ]"Please, everyone, help me find my wife!", is instead hindering the investigation, keeping secrets.....
[/B]I just feel so badly for Susan, she truly deserves so much better. So does her family that obviously loves her so much.

Oh please Josh, tell her family where she is!!!!

Taminator
12-18-2009, 07:25 PM
I'm of the firm belief that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Attorney or no attorney, if you can't even give LE simple information such as an exact location where you were camping, you have something to fear. There is no good reason as to why he should not be involved in trying to help find Susan. Unless he has something to hide. A person who has nothing to hide gives as much information as possible. A person who has nothing to hide knows where they were and when. A person who has nothing to fear will be as forthcoming as possible.

emmcee
12-18-2009, 07:28 PM
Not a problem.

The comment at 8:53 a.m. was made by "Wayne" who supposedly knows Josh:


http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/705352238/Breaks-our-hearts-2-Susan-Powells-family-concerned-about-the-actions-of-her-husband.html?pg=3

.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 07:44 PM
The comment at 8:53 a.m. was made by "Wayne" who supposedly knows Josh:


http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/705352238/Breaks-our-hearts-2-Susan-Powells-family-concerned-about-the-actions-of-her-husband.html?pg=3

.

Thanks for the link, I read most of the posts and WOW, is it the defense team trying to make Josh look like a nice guy? One called him an odd bird.
Most are on our same track!

harleysnana
12-18-2009, 08:03 PM
Local News:
Building a Case.
One criminal subpoena targets Josh Powell.
Gathering surveillance videos.
Cell phone records.
Subpoenaed Channel 4 news for the video of Josh.
Josh Powell is the only person of interest.
Police asked him to take a LD but his attorney said no.

emmcee
12-18-2009, 08:04 PM
. . . . . it the defense team trying to make Josh look like a nice guy? . . . . .


No question in my mind that it's the defense team defending him on there, but that's just my humble opinion. It does make for interesting reading, but I don't get the idea that he's changing anyone's minds. And yes, most of the comments are in agreement with those here on WS. It all boils down to just plain old common sense. :)

smart blonde
12-18-2009, 08:11 PM
The comment at 8:53 a.m. was made by "Wayne" who supposedly knows Josh:


http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/705352238/Breaks-our-hearts-2-Susan-Powells-family-concerned-about-the-actions-of-her-husband.html?pg=3

.
Thank you for this link... very interesting comments.

One in particular made a strong point. (the following in my own words):

By all accounts, the police had to break through the window to gain access to the house, which stands to reason the doors were locked.

If Susan left on her own accord, how did she lock the front door, when her keys were still inside (if indeed the deadbolt was locked).

If Susan was abducted from the home, is it reasonable to think the abductor would lock the house behind them? (and, again, if the deadbolt was locked, they would still need a key, which was in the house).

Even when it comes to trying to cover his tracks after killing his wife, Josh is such an underachiever it is pitiful.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 08:22 PM
I keep forgetting about the time zone, but the day isn't over in UTAH.........only 4:20pm there.

hellolisakitty
12-18-2009, 08:26 PM
I keep forgetting about the time zone, but the day isn't over in UTAH.........only 4:20pm there.

Actually add an hour... 525pm right now, but the day is still not over!

mysticrose
12-18-2009, 08:32 PM
Police building case to solve missing mom mystery

WEST VALLEY CITY, Utah (ABC 4 News) – Police are building a case to help solve the disappearance of Susan Powell.

But authorities won’t say who they’re targeting.

Yesterday, police searched the home of her husband Josh Powell for the second time. In addition, police also used a search warrant to look at Powell’s van last week.

But credit card transactions and cell phone records may offer clues for police.

Police won't say if those records they’re seeking belong to Josh. But historically those kinds of record searches help police.

"What that does especially a financial account or a cell phone record it allows us to get a better picture of what went on at what time and what amount was spent at what locations,” said police Captain Tom McLachlan.

He did acknowledge that surveillance videos at convenience stores in West Valley are also being gathered by investigators.

"I'm sure that that has been done what results are I'm not aware of,” he said.

Mitzi Dodge said the Powell's came to the store she manages often and she's anxious to help out.

"The surveillance tape is available, the cops can come and pick that up if they need to look at the surveillance tape,” she said.

Police won't say what or who they're looking for on those tapes.

But police subpoenaed ABC4 news for an interview with Josh Powell.

"We need that to review and not have the edited information,” he said

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Police-building-case-to-solve-missing-mom-mystery/SQsurPy820CQZwWdoCrDlw.cspx

lonetraveler
12-18-2009, 08:35 PM
I'm so curious as to why they would request this!

I feel really stupid asking this but could Josh be covering up scratches? I'll admit I have watched the videos but did not look very close, should have, I know, at his face or hands. I did read that he had near frostbite on his hands.

Texas Mist
12-18-2009, 08:36 PM
here's a link to a longer uncut vid of one of Josh's interviews w/ local tv news -- no more sincere on the long version than the short version, IMO

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 @04:29pm CST
Josh Powell: Full Interview With 2News


http://connect2utah.com/content/fulltext/?cid=67882

gitana1
12-18-2009, 08:44 PM
Reading "Wayne's" remarks makes me wonder if he's going to come up with some BS story like Susan was acting erratically and posing a danger to him and the boys and so to spare her the public embarassment of calling LE, he left quickly with the kids.

lonetraveler
12-18-2009, 08:52 PM
Thank you for this link... very interesting comments.

One in particular made a strong point. (the following in my own words):

By all accounts, the police had to break through the window to gain access to the house, which stands to reason the doors were locked.

If Susan left on her own accord, how did she lock the front door, when her keys were still inside (if indeed the deadbolt was locked).

If Susan was abducted from the home, is it reasonable to think the abductor would lock the house behind them? (and, again, if the deadbolt was locked, they would still need a key, which was in the house).

Even when it comes to trying to cover his tracks after killing his wife, Josh is such an underachiever it is pitiful.

He is also acting "the sniveling coward" by not speaking with LE and helping them in any way that HE CAN to bring his wife and the mother of his two little boys home so that she can be at rest and not out in the freezing cold.:furious:

GingerRed
12-18-2009, 08:53 PM
here's a link to a longer uncut vid of one of Josh's interviews w/ local tv news -- no more sincere on the long version than the short version, IMO

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 @04:29pm CST
Josh Powell: Full Interview With 2News


http://connect2utah.com/content/fulltext/?cid=67882

Even less sincere in my book.

passionflower
12-18-2009, 08:53 PM
rewatching the uncut video, all I could see is he reaches out with his right hand to shake the reporters hand twice.
Holds keys and adjusts his hat with only his left hand.
Wearing a golden wedding band.
Freshly shaven face, would think after 17 hours+ with no sleep, missing wife,
he would look disheaveled........ unless he has very light facial hair.
I watched it mute to see more bodylanguage......I'll watch and listen next.