PDA

View Full Version : The Box From Hell (BFH) - Part 2



Cubby
01-23-2010, 02:08 PM
Please continue here.

Link to first thread:

The Box From Hell (BFH) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Cubby
01-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Copying the last post from SherlockJr on the previous BFH thread so this doesn't get missed.



I think GW only kept the mileage on his car while on vacation. There are notes about taking "M's" picture on vacation. Can someone total the miles driven and get an idea how far he would have driven from San Francisco?

SherlockJr
02-03-2010, 08:18 PM
Here is what I've gathered from the Insurance Policies....the date listed is the effective date. If there is another date listed, that is the renewal date. I've edited the information removing the policy number from this list. I have this saved as an Excel file, but can not load that type of file on WS.




STANDARD OREGON (MNHC)
$60,000


5/28/1972




LLOYDS, LONDON
$100,000
$175
6/12/1972
6/12/1973



AM HOME ASSOC
$500,000


7/20/1973



MUTUAL/OMAHA/TWA
$101,000
$3/FLIGHT
12/1/1973




COMMERCIAL INS CO
$100,000
$80/YR
7/1/1974



FIREMAN FUND AIC
$175,000


7/15/1974



IMPERIAL CASUALTY
$25,000
$10
8/1/1974
2/1/1975


ALLSTATE (SHELL OIL)
$200,000
3.45/MO
10/1/1974




EXXON TRAVEL (TRAVELER)
20000 + 30000
2.25/MO
11/1/1974




CHEVRON TRAVEL (INA)
$15,000


11/1/1974




ALLSTATE (SEARS & ROEBUCK)
$20,000
$2/MO
12/28/1974




GULF TRAVEL (CONN GNRL)
$25,000
$2.25/MO
1/1/1975




INA (UNION 76)
$50,000
$4.50/MO
2/10/1975




ARCO TRAVEL (INA)
$25,000
$3.50/MO
3/1/1975




FIREMAN FUND AIC (AMEX)
$25,000
$3/MO
5/1/1975
6/1/1975



BENEFICIAL STAND LIC (DINERS)
$120,000
$30/3MOS
6/15/1975




GAMBLE ALDEN/CARTE BLANCHE
$150,000


7/7/1975




CHEVRON TRAVEL (INA)
$25,000


2/1/1976




CA STATE AUTO ASSOC (AAA)
$60,000
$13/SEMI ANN
3/10/1976
9/10/1976




$170,000


1/20/1978




PLCC
$100,000
$100/YR
3/25/1975


APPLIED FOR


AMEX
$500,000


8/1/1981




LLOYDS


185.88/YR
6/22/1970



LLOYDS



5/20/1971

SideKick
02-06-2010, 08:13 AM
Would it be of any advantage to call these Insurance Companies to check on all these policies, perhaps Anna's name was involved on paper? or the person handling the paperwork is still around and may recall conversations?

~



Here is what I've gathered from the Insurance Policies....the date listed is the effective date. If there is another date listed, that is the renewal date. I've edited the information removing the policy number from this list. I have this saved as an Excel file, but can not load that type of file on WS.




STANDARD OREGON (MNHC)
$60,000


5/28/1972




LLOYDS, LONDON
$100,000
$175
6/12/1972
6/12/1973



AM HOME ASSOC
$500,000


7/20/1973



MUTUAL/OMAHA/TWA
$101,000
$3/FLIGHT
12/1/1973




COMMERCIAL INS CO
$100,000
$80/YR
7/1/1974



FIREMAN FUND AIC
$175,000


7/15/1974



IMPERIAL CASUALTY
$25,000
$10
8/1/1974
2/1/1975


ALLSTATE (SHELL OIL)
$200,000
3.45/MO
10/1/1974




EXXON TRAVEL (TRAVELER)
20000 + 30000
2.25/MO
11/1/1974




CHEVRON TRAVEL (INA)
$15,000


11/1/1974




ALLSTATE (SEARS & ROEBUCK)
$20,000
$2/MO
12/28/1974




GULF TRAVEL (CONN GNRL)
$25,000
$2.25/MO
1/1/1975




INA (UNION 76)
$50,000
$4.50/MO
2/10/1975




ARCO TRAVEL (INA)
$25,000
$3.50/MO
3/1/1975




FIREMAN FUND AIC (AMEX)
$25,000
$3/MO
5/1/1975
6/1/1975



BENEFICIAL STAND LIC (DINERS)
$120,000
$30/3MOS
6/15/1975




GAMBLE ALDEN/CARTE BLANCHE
$150,000


7/7/1975




CHEVRON TRAVEL (INA)
$25,000


2/1/1976




CA STATE AUTO ASSOC (AAA)
$60,000
$13/SEMI ANN
3/10/1976
9/10/1976




$170,000


1/20/1978




PLCC
$100,000
$100/YR
3/25/1975


APPLIED FOR


AMEX
$500,000


8/1/1981




LLOYDS


185.88/YR
6/22/1970



LLOYDS



5/20/1971

SideKick
02-12-2010, 01:08 PM
The Medical Slip

This is nagging at me, I have to post this theory so I can sleep tonight. :-)

I have been thinking about the pink medical slip found in the BFH Waters apparently purposely left behind as per suggestions as an alibi he worked January, 16, 1973.

What if:

He left it behind 'on purpose' leaving a tell tale hint who Anna was adopted out to? The Romero's?

I know I may be totally out of it here, but as I once read about solving mysteries, the answer may lie close to home.... so, on that note, why did he leave this one slip and not anything else? (otherthan an alibi).

Maybe Waters committed suicide feeling horribly horrible after Brody passed and he thought hey, ok, I will leave this slip in hopes someone finds it, finds Anna.

Yes, I realize this may not be the case whatsoever, but, have to get this out there.......

Question:

Annasmom, where they any acquaintances you and George Waters had out of State that you may think of who 'just may have taken Anna as per GW's suggestion?"

Love

Annasmom
02-12-2010, 03:03 PM
The Medical Slip

This is nagging at me, I have to post this theory so I can sleep tonight. :-)

I have been thinking about the pink medical slip found in the BFH Waters apparently purposely left behind as per suggestions as an alibi he worked January, 16, 1973.

What if:

He left it behind 'on purpose' leaving a tell tale hint who Anna was adopted out to? The Romero's?

I know I may be totally out of it here, but as I once read about solving mysteries, the answer may lie close to home.... so, on that note, why did he leave this one slip and not anything else? (otherthan an alibi).

Maybe Waters committed suicide feeling horribly horrible after Brody passed and he thought hey, ok, I will leave this slip in hopes someone finds it, finds Anna.

Yes, I realize this may not be the case whatsoever, but, have to get this out there.......

Question:

Annasmom, where they any acquaintances you and George Waters had out of State that you may think of who 'just may have taken Anna as per GW's suggestion?"

Love

There is lots of paperwork at public clinics, and I just can't imagine GW keeping this pink slip unless it really meant something. I think this was from the Mission Neighborhood Health Center, which had mostly Latino patients, and I'm sure there were lots of Romeros. GW was fired from this clinic because of his erratic behavior (although he had earlier received an award for his work there.)

I do think probably the pink slip was for an alibi, which means he had reason to think he might need one. I can't think of any mutual acquaintances who would think it was all right to take a child from her home. That doesn't mean GW didn't know somebody who would or could do just that. I hadn't even known where he lived for four years or so, and certainly he had a life I didn't know about long before that.

SideKick
02-12-2010, 05:33 PM
There is lots of paperwork at public clinics, and I just can't imagine GW keeping this pink slip unless it really meant something. I think this was from the Mission Neighborhood Health Center, which had mostly Latino patients, and I'm sure there were lots of Romeros. GW was fired from this clinic because of his erratic behavior (although he had earlier received an award for his work there.)

I do think probably the pink slip was for an alibi, which means he had reason to think he might need one. I can't think of any mutual acquaintances who would think it was all right to take a child from her home. That doesn't mean GW didn't know somebody who would or could do just that. I hadn't even known where he lived for four years or so, and certainly he had a life I didn't know about long before that.

~

Thanks Annasmom, very much!

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 04:47 PM
I've been going through the Squibb notes a little at a time and trying to look at things from a fresh angle.

Regarding the line that reads "DAMRON passport off ret v. con" I have found the following information:

From an archived document that is titled Foreign Service List 1957

http://www.archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1957unit/foreignserviceli1957unit_djvu.txt

Snipped
"The Foreign Service List, issued quarterly by the Department of State, is
compiled primarily for use by the Department of State, the Foreign Service,
and other United States Government Agencies, to provide information on the
assignments of Foreign Service personnel and other United States personnel
assigned overseas. The information it contains has also been found useful
by American business firms, various groups and individuals, and by foreign
governments."

"(...)FOREIGN SERVICE LIST ITALY"

"(...) Damron, Everette L., v. c. (0-6) Sept. 25,53

So here we have a list from 1957 that recognizes Everette L. Damron as a V.C. (which according to the document is the abbr. for Vice Consul) for Italy.

If he was active in 1957 then it is reasonable to assume that he was retired (ret v. con) by the time this note was written. I have not researched Everette Damron yet, but plan to later tonight. I feel that he may be important. From the note it appears he was someone that Brody considered a contact since he directed GW to him for help in obtaining the passport.

Cubby
02-13-2010, 05:02 PM
Excellent points One hooah! With the passport needing replacement and GW claiming it was destroyed in a fire, your post has me wondering if somehow GB knew Damron, and if perhaps an overseas adoption or need to bring Anna to her godfathers family... for some reason.

Did you happen to notice the date on that squibb which Damron was written? If not, I will look later. (I am going to try and sneak in a short catnap before my son gets home).

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 05:06 PM
excellent points one hooah! With the passport needing replacement and gw claiming it was destroyed in a fire, your post has me wondering if somehow gb knew damron, and if perhaps an overseas adoption or need to bring anna to her godfathers family... For some reason.

Did you happen to notice the date on that squibb which damron was written? If not, i will look later. (i am going to try and sneak in a short catnap before my son gets home).

7/30/71

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 05:36 PM
http://www.archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1949unit/foreignserviceli1949unit_djvu.txt

Foreign service list shows
Everette L. Damron Vice Consul - Netherlands 1949

Here is a ships manifest 1951 from Westerdam to NY showing Damron, wife (Shelia) and son (Paul). It lists their hometown as Pedro Ohio.

It gives the following information

Everette L. Damron (33 y/o) born in Cattlesburg KY
Shelia L.G Damron (28 y/o) born in Gr. Britain
Paul L. Damron (2 months) in Br. Giauna

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 05:51 PM
1953 Foreign Service List
Everette L. Damron Vice Consul - Spain
http://www.archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1953unit/foreignserviceli1953unit_djvu.txt

Cubby
02-13-2010, 06:18 PM
http://www.archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1949unit/foreignserviceli1949unit_djvu.txt

Foreign service list shows
Everette L. Damron Vice Consul - Netherlands 1949

Here is a ships manifest 1951 from Westerdam to NY showing Damron, wife (Shelia) and son (Paul). It lists their hometown as Pedro Ohio.

It gives the following information

Everette L. Damron (33 y/o) born in Cattlesburg KY
Shelia L.G Damron (28 y/o) born in Gr. Britain
Paul L. Damron (2 months) in Br. Giauna


You rock! so that would mean "ret. V con" which follows Damron on the squib would mean "retired vice consul". Thinking outloud so my apology if I am repeating this from prev post.

ETA: Whoops, I can see I really need that nap. You did write ret. v con in your first post one hooah. :doh:
Is it :bedtime: yet? too late to take a nap.

Cubby
02-13-2010, 06:27 PM
I wonder why GW chose to write Damron. Since his son PD would still be alive and would have been about 20 when GW made contact, I wonder if we should contact him and see if he has any knowlege of or about GW and GB. Thoughts?

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 06:38 PM
You rock! so that would mean "ret. V con" which follows Damron on the squib would mean "retired vice consul". Thinking outloud so my apology if I am repeating this from prev post.

ETA: Whoops, I can see I really need that nap. You did write ret. v con in your first post one hooah. :doh:
Is it :bedtime: yet? too late to take a nap.

It was there from the start but there was a lot of information in that one to process!! Now if we can just connect the dots and find Brody!

one_hooah_wife
02-13-2010, 06:51 PM
Here is a passenger list from 1954 from Italy to NY that features the Damron family of Everette, Shelia and Paul as well as two "new" Damron's, Rosemary (born in Washington, DC) and Mark, (born in Spain) no ages given. It also gives a c/o address with the name W.F Damron of Ironton Ohio, likely his father.

Whew ... This family was busy!! It would figure that we finally find a connection to Brody, and he turns out to be a globe trotter!!

FYI
I've seen variations in spellings for Everette (Evert, Everett and Everet) and Shelia (Sheila)

OzzieMum
02-13-2010, 09:02 PM
Here is a passenger list from 1954 from Italy to NY that features the Damron family of Everette, Shelia and Paul as well as two "new" Damron's, Rosemary (born in Washington, DC) and Mark, (born in Spain) no ages given. It also gives a c/o address with the name W.F Damron of Ironton Ohio, likely his father.

Whew ... This family was busy!! It would figure that we finally find a connection to Brody, and he turns out to be a globe trotter!!

FYI
I've seen variations in spellings for Everette (Evert, Everett and Everet) and Shelia (Sheila)

Fantastic work one hooah:woohoo:

Annasmom
02-13-2010, 09:32 PM
I wonder why GW chose to write Damron. Since his son PD would still be alive and would have been about 20 when GW made contact, I wonder if we should contact him and see if he has any knowlege of or about GW and GB. Thoughts?

A while back, someone interpreted this note as having something to do with a gay and lesbian travel guide. I just Googled the name and similar things came up. Somehow the vice consul makes a bit more sense, but I would like you to look at the note again and tell me if we should just rule out this earlier possibility.

Cubby
02-13-2010, 10:12 PM
A while back, someone interpreted this note as having something to do with a gay and lesbian travel guide. I just Googled the name and similar things came up. Somehow the vice consul makes a bit more sense, but I would like you to look at the note again and tell me if we should just rule out this earlier possibility.


I had completly forgotten that theory Annasmom. I think we can safely rule out the earlier possibility. I think in this case the gay and lesbian travel guide just happens to be coincidental because of the two G's being in the SF area. Especially in light of the information One Hooah found which makes perfect sense. The only thing that might be cause for reconsideration is if - and this is pure speculation and thus far highly unlikely - that this E.D. that one hooah found is somehow associated with the Damron Travel guide.

jmo

Cubby
02-13-2010, 10:15 PM
I don't know that we can make the assumption GW knew of Everette Damron through GB. It is possible GW may have met ED in the years he was in Greece.

Annasmom, can you tell us again which years GW spent in Greece and at what schools if you recall. Can we do a short timeline for GW's years oversea's as a teen or adult. (I don't think his early childhood years would be relevent..... jmo)

Also, did GW spend any time oversea's in other countries than Greece? That might help tie the pieces of the puzzle with E. Damon.

tia

ETA: Maybe far fetched, but not impossible. Perhaps ED could have been involved in an oversea's adoption or finding a family for Anna. I think GW would have had access to paperwork with his ties to the hospitals. All he had to do was convince an unwitting clerk to go along with him. Perhaps somehow ED was unaware of the kidnapping or illegal aspects of this but involved. Especially if GW had planned to visit Anna oversea's. That would be one reason for all those accident insurance policies. GW having been born abroad and studying abroad.. with his history who would have questioned his desire to have his child spend time abroad? Not only that, it is possible GW could have passed anyone's death certificate as being Annas mother, no? Maybe that is why he had to take M's picture on vacation. Somehow to prove Annas mother was deceased so someone would go along with an adoption?

Just thinking outloud.

Annasmom
02-14-2010, 12:48 AM
I don't know that we can make the assumption GW knew of Everette Damron through GB. It is possible GW may have met ED in the years he was in Greece.

Annasmom, can you tell us again which years GW spent in Greece and at what schools if you recall. Can we do a short timeline for GW's years oversea's as a teen or adult. (I don't think his early childhood years would be relevent..... jmo)

Also, did GW spend any time oversea's in other countries than Greece? That might help tie the pieces of the puzzle with E. Damon.

tia

ETA: Maybe far fetched, but not impossible. Perhaps ED could have been involved in an oversea's adoption or finding a family for Anna. I think GW would have had access to paperwork with his ties to the hospitals. All he had to do was convince an unwitting clerk to go along with him. Perhaps somehow ED was unaware of the kidnapping or illegal aspects of this but involved. Especially if GW had planned to visit Anna oversea's. That would be one reason for all those accident insurance policies. GW having been born abroad and studying abroad.. with his history who would have questioned his desire to have his child spend time abroad? Not only that, it is possible GW could have passed anyone's death certificate as being Annas mother, no? Maybe that is why he had to take M's picture on vacation. Somehow to prove Annas mother was deceased so someone would go along with an adoption?

Just thinking outloud.

He traveled quite a bit: Mexico, Egypt, France, Switzerland. He taught at the American Farm School in Greece in (I think) 1962 and returned to Greece on a medical school fellowship from Columbia University in maybe 1963 or 4. He could have known of Damron from college as well. I sure wish we had that last passport. So many of the accident insurance policies were the kind you would get at an airport when taking a trip; it suggests that he was going places.

Cubby
02-14-2010, 12:58 AM
He traveled quite a bit: Mexico, Egypt, France, Switzerland. He taught at the American Farm School in Greece in (I think) 1962 and returned to Greece on a medical school fellowship from Columbia University in maybe 1963 or 4. He could have known of Damron from college as well. I sure wish we had that last passport. So many of the accident insurance policies were the kind you would get at an airport when taking a trip; it suggests that he was going places.


Thank you Annasmom. I am going to add those dates to our stickied timeline.

ETA: There really isn't any way to get any additional info from the passport office on GW's passport is there? IIRC they don't keep any records and the records would have been the stamps.

Perhaps this is a good time to try and find out if those TWA flight records are now listed. I forget the details... but recall there was a record of purchasing the tickets in the BFH. Can someone refresh my memory on the TWA thing.

one_hooah_wife
02-14-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't know that we can make the assumption GW knew of Everette Damron through GB. It is possible GW may have met ED in the years he was in Greece.

Annasmom, can you tell us again which years GW spent in Greece and at what schools if you recall. Can we do a short timeline for GW's years oversea's as a teen or adult. (I don't think his early childhood years would be relevent..... jmo)

Also, did GW spend any time oversea's in other countries than Greece? That might help tie the pieces of the puzzle with E. Damon.

tia

ETA: Maybe far fetched, but not impossible. Perhaps ED could have been involved in an oversea's adoption or finding a family for Anna. I think GW would have had access to paperwork with his ties to the hospitals. All he had to do was convince an unwitting clerk to go along with him. Perhaps somehow ED was unaware of the kidnapping or illegal aspects of this but involved. Especially if GW had planned to visit Anna oversea's. That would be one reason for all those accident insurance policies. GW having been born abroad and studying abroad.. with his history who would have questioned his desire to have his child spend time abroad? Not only that, it is possible GW could have passed anyone's death certificate as being Annas mother, no? Maybe that is why he had to take M's picture on vacation. Somehow to prove Annas mother was deceased so someone would go along with an adoption?

Just thinking outloud.

The reason that I believe it was GB who knew Damron is twofold. First, his age, he was born in 1917-1918 according to all the documents I have found. It seems more likely that Brody would be his contemporary. The note itself (assuming I am correct about the meaning) refers to a retired Damron ... How likely is it that GW would have kept up with him through the years to know that he was retired? Second, It is certainly possible that GW met Damron in his extensive travels, however, pulling from my knowledge and understanding of mental illness, in particular schizophrenia, and taking into consideration everything else that we know about his actions during the period that he wrote the squibb note ... I feel that he was, at that point, almost completely fixated on Brody. I don't see a whole lot of evidence that GW did ANYTHING that was not directed by Brody, at that time. I have often thought, while reading about this case, that Brody may have had a background in psychology due to the way he so masterfully exploited GW's illness. GW's afflicted brain didn't even need to develop hallucinations ... he had Brody!!

raf
02-14-2010, 12:46 PM
ED (full name: E Leonard D)
birth: 6 May 1917 Catlettsburg, Boyd, Kentucky
father: Floyd
mother: Bertha Schuff

raf

Annasmom
02-14-2010, 02:17 PM
Thank you Annasmom. I am going to add those dates to our stickied timeline.

ETA: There really isn't any way to get any additional info from the passport office on GW's passport is there? IIRC they don't keep any records and the records would have been the stamps.

Perhaps this is a good time to try and find out if those TWA flight records are now listed. I forget the details... but recall there was a record of purchasing the tickets in the BFH. Can someone refresh my memory on the TWA thing.

We have everything the passport office has. They don't keep the actual passports; just the applications. Two important things to find out: Where was Damron stationed as vice consul? And what's the status of the FOIA inquiry?

one_hooah_wife
02-14-2010, 04:10 PM
We have everything the passport office has. They don't keep the actual passports; just the applications. Two important things to find out: Where was Damron stationed as vice consul? And what's the status of the FOIA inquiry?



Everette L. Damron FSL timeline with supporting documents
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Consuls%20--%20United%20States%22
1935-1946 FSL’s no Damron found.
1947 First post – Georgetown, British Guiana - Vice Consul
Assignment date 7/1946
1948 ditto
1949 Amsterdam, The Netherlands – Vice Consul
Assignment date 7/1948
1950 ditto
1951 ditto
1952 Vigo, Spain –Vice Consul
Assignment date 7/1951
1953 ditto
1954 Naples, Italy – Vice Consul
Assignment date 9/1953
1955 ditto
1956 ditto
1957 Ciudad, Trujillo – Vice Consul
Assignment date 9/1957
1958 ditto
1959 ditto
1960 Personnel of the Department of State Washington, DC
1961 Ditto
1962 Roma, Italy – Consul

SideKick
02-16-2010, 02:44 PM
I have added Squibb _20_21jpg showing the Italian Cons

Any idea what number 19 means on the same Squibb / Notorization to whom?

one_hooah_wife
02-16-2010, 02:58 PM
I have added Squibb _20_21jpg showing the Italian Cons

Any idea what number 19 means on the same Squibb / Notorization to whom?

Notarized document bearing photo and both signatures

GW uses the Greek alphabet a lot. The symbol for phi followed by "oto" would be photo ... I think!?

one_hooah_wife
02-16-2010, 03:06 PM
I have added Squibb _20_21jpg showing the Italian Cons

Any idea what number 19 means on the same Squibb / Notorization to whom?

Hmmmm ... Just this past week I had to sign a form for my son to go on a mission trip to Mexico, since his dad is getting his passport done while he is with him on Spring break and I would not be there. I had to have that document notarized because when applying for a passport for a minor child both parents must sign.

SideKick
02-16-2010, 03:08 PM
Squibb, _28_29

Make will out to ACE for one dollar,. interesting the G's do refer to Anna with Eifee in '71.

Did we see this Will?

SideKick
02-16-2010, 03:16 PM
I have added Squibb _20_21jpg showing the Italian Cons

Any idea what number 19 means on the same Squibb / Notorization to whom?


Hmmmm ... Just this past week I had to sign a form for my son to go on a mission trip to Mexico, since his dad is getting his passport done while he is with him on Spring break and I would not be there. I had to have that document notarized because when applying for a passport for a minor child both parents must sign.

Thanks one_hooah,
So many little secrets could be found in these Squibbs. One that really gets me is the vacation pic of Margaret quote and the fact he get's B's permission.. and then later 'given ok to take M's picture on vacation'... Love to know M!?

SideKick
02-16-2010, 03:20 PM
Excellent work bytheway on Everette Damron and Paul.

In short, are you thinking that a 'Damron' could not only have authorized Waters trip to Italy and perhaps .... adopted Anna?

My apologies if this is a silly Q. :innocent:

one_hooah_wife
02-16-2010, 04:02 PM
Excellent work bytheway on Everette Damron and Paul.

In short, are you thinking that a 'Damron' could not only have authorized Waters trip to Italy and perhaps .... adopted Anna?

My apologies if this is a silly Q. :innocent:

Thanks! Not silly at all when the known facts (about Brody) of this case border on the absurd sometimes!! I haven't really thought it through that far, regarding the Damron connection. I was simply trying to make some sense out of the note and from a different angle than had been previously explored, ie, Damron gay and lesbian travel agency. I thought maybe if GB felt comfortable to send GW to him for help (speculation) obtaining a less than legal passport (an application that would not hold up to the general scrutiny of officials) that possibly we could find a clue to GB's real identity. I haven't been able to find out much about Damron's life after he left his job as an FSO. There is a large Damron/Dameron family site that I have just started to go through.

annemc2
02-16-2010, 11:24 PM
Notarized document bearing photo and both signatures

GW uses the Greek alphabet a lot. The symbol for phi followed by "oto" would be photo ... I think!?

That is interesting. Makes sense that it means "photo" - apparently this is the Bulgarian spelling of the word. Is it the Greek spelling, as well?

Annasmom
02-17-2010, 01:28 AM
That is interesting. Makes sense that it means "photo" - apparently this is the Bulgarian spelling of the word. Is it the Greek spelling, as well? Yes, it is.

Julessleuther
02-17-2010, 01:35 AM
That is new in the past 10-12 years I believe. Prior you only needed a signature of the other parent...easily forged and why there were more problems with parents abducting children out of the country. Great work everyone!


Hmmmm ... Just this past week I had to sign a form for my son to go on a mission trip to Mexico, since his dad is getting his passport done while he is with him on Spring break and I would not be there. I had to have that document notarized because when applying for a passport for a minor child both parents must sign.

SideKick
03-04-2010, 03:16 PM
Hi there,

Just to seal the deal on this one, I wrote Damron to ask about the passport etc., this is their reply I received today.

"Damron is just a publishing company. Particularly in 1971, the company at that time was just one man (now deceased) who traveled around the United States visiting gay bars. The company has never operated as a tour company or accepted passports from anyone. I'm sorry we can't be of help."

sk

Cubby
03-06-2010, 04:41 PM
Has anyone with an ancestry membership looked to see if Anna could have been adopted by the Everette L. Damron family?

I tend to think GW knew of ELD rather than GB. Most people who met GB were immediately turned off by him, aside from the few who bought into his strange theories. I can't see someone with ELD's work history having any interest in Brody whatsoever.

I guess what perplexes me now is why Italy? Why would GW need to contact the italian consulate?

jmo

Cubby
03-06-2010, 04:42 PM
sidekick, I think we can pretty much rule out the damron travel publisher based on the above info regarding the ELD found.

jmo

OzzieMum
03-06-2010, 05:13 PM
Has anyone with an ancestry membership looked to see if Anna could have been adopted by the Everette L. Damron family?

I tend to think GW knew of ELD rather than GB. Most people who met GB were immediately turned off by him, aside from the few who bought into his strange theories. I can't see someone with ELD's work history having any interest in Brody whatsoever.

I guess what perplexes me now is why Italy? Why would GW need to contact the italian consulate?

jmo

Hi Cubby,

I did check ELD on ancestry and footnote and there wasn't anything of great interest. I will have another look though.

Julessleuther
03-06-2010, 06:05 PM
I was going to check ancestry but I see ozziemom beat me to it. I have a full membership, so Ozziemum if you need help, let me know. I agree about the Italian consulate question Cubby. Why would one contact a consulate?
Has anyone with an ancestry membership looked to see if Anna could have been adopted by the Everette L. Damron family?

I tend to think GW knew of ELD rather than GB. Most people who met GB were immediately turned off by him, aside from the few who bought into his strange theories. I can't see someone with ELD's work history having any interest in Brody whatsoever.

I guess what perplexes me now is why Italy? Why would GW need to contact the italian consulate?

jmo

OzzieMum
03-06-2010, 07:49 PM
I was going to check ancestry but I see ozziemom beat me to it. I have a full membership, so Ozziemum if you need help, let me know. I agree about the Italian consulate question Cubby. Why would one contact a consulate?

Hi Julessleuther,

Go for it. Two sets of eyes are better than one. Never know if I might have missed something.

petchie
03-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Hmmmm ... Just this past week I had to sign a form for my son to go on a mission trip to Mexico, since his dad is getting his passport done while he is with him on Spring break and I would not be there. I had to have that document notarized because when applying for a passport for a minor child both parents must sign.

Children having to have their own passports is relatively new. Back then they travelled on their parents passports. I know that in the early 90's this was still the case as well. I tried to find when the ruling was changed but all I could find was:

At one time it was common for a parent's passport to include the names and photos of his or her children. These "family passports" allowed children to travel together with their parent(s) without the need to issue individual passports to each child. Family passports were not valid for children to travel by themselves or with someone other than a parent. The United States and the United Kingdom once issued family passports, but no longer do so.

So if he had her listed on his passport, she would not have needed her own since she was so young.

Cubby
03-07-2010, 01:26 PM
Thank you petchie. Then the childs name would appear on the parents application if they were to have traveled with a child correct? Just clarifying my own understanding.

Annasmom
03-07-2010, 03:26 PM
Children having to have their own passports is relatively new. Back then they travelled on their parents passports. I know that in the early 90's this was still the case as well. I tried to find when the ruling was changed but all I could find was:

At one time it was common for a parent's passport to include the names and photos of his or her children. These "family passports" allowed children to travel together with their parent(s) without the need to issue individual passports to each child. Family passports were not valid for children to travel by themselves or with someone other than a parent. The United States and the United Kingdom once issued family passports, but no longer do so.

So if he had her listed on his passport, she would not have needed her own since she was so young.

I love your Mozart quote, Petchie. My little boys were on my passport in the sixties.

Cubby
03-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Ok, this may be a dumb question, but long ago I decided the only dumb questions were the ones never asked.

If I understand this correctly, the application for GW would have had to include both himself and a child. The application for the parent also included an area to list all children that would be traveling with the parent. What I want to clarify is when Annasmom got the copies of the passport applications she would have gotten one or two. Where there two, one for the original and a second for the replacement? And neither showed GW having added Anna to his passport. Would he have had Anna on the original and not the replacement then claimed it was burned so she no longer showed as being on the passport?

Is that how that works?

TIA!

Annasmom
03-07-2010, 07:36 PM
Ok, this may be a dumb question, but long ago I decided the only dumb questions were the ones never asked.

If I understand this correctly, the application for GW would have had to include both himself and a child. The application for the parent also included an area to list all children that would be traveling with the parent. What I want to clarify is when Annasmom got the copies of the passport applications she would have gotten one or two. Where there two, one for the original and a second for the replacement? And neither showed GW having added Anna to his passport. Would he have had Anna on the original and not the replacement then claimed it was burned so she no longer showed as being on the passport?

Is that how that works?

TIA!

I received all GW's passport applications (I think it was four), going back to age 20. Anna's name was not mentioned on any of the applications. The Sheriff's office had the passport people check to see if a passport had ever been issued to Anna under her real name; they found none. This does not preclude having a passport amended, as far as I know (and then destroyed), or having a fake passport, or having a passport for Anna under another name.

Cubby
03-07-2010, 07:40 PM
I received all GW's passport applications (I think it was four), going back to age 20. Anna's name was not mentioned on any of the applications. The Sheriff's office had the passport people check to see if a passport had ever been issued to Anna under her real name; they found none. This does not preclude having a passport amended, as far as I know (and then destroyed), or having a fake passport, or having a passport for Anna under another name.


That's exactly what I thought, so the information would not rule out that Anna was not taken or arranged to be taken overseas by the two G's.

petchie
03-08-2010, 04:30 PM
I love your Mozart quote, Petchie. My little boys were on my passport in the sixties.

Thank you. I am trying to learn to think more outside the box.

Sometimes, I think, that we all see the "notes" when looking for missing persons or unidentified persons, but we forget to look at what isn't there as well. It may be the "silence" that holds the answer.

I have been reading the posts here for over a year but never had much to offer. I wish you well in your search and will try to help however I can.

SideKick
03-14-2010, 09:38 AM
Dr. Doogie,

I hope you don't mind, I emailed the St. Louis Mercantile Library to find out about the TWA passenger lists which were to be archived. This is the email I received.

"The TWA Collection has still only been partially processed and at this time the finding aid does not contain any passenger lists. Please let me know if I can answer any additional questions or concerns."


Sincerely,

Curator, Special Collections

~~ This is disheartening information in that we thought/hoped that the TWA passenger existed and were to be archived. I wonder where they are and if they are accessible in the near future?

Question: If G. Waters decided Anna would fare well in Italy, and if he contacted the Italian Consulate, would the Italian Airways have lists/stamps of visitors to their country?

SK.

OzzieMum
03-14-2010, 04:21 PM
Dr. Doogie,

I hope you don't mind, I emailed the St. Louis Mercantile Library to find out about the TWA passenger lists which were to be archived. This is the email I received.

"The TWA Collection has still only been partially processed and at this time the finding aid does not contain any passenger lists. Please let me know if I can answer any additional questions or concerns."


Sincerely,

Curator, Special Collections

~~ This is disheartening information in that we thought/hoped that the TWA passenger existed and were to be archived. I wonder where they are and if they are accessible in the near future?

Question: If G. Waters decided Anna would fare well in Italy, and if he contacted the Italian Consulate, would the Italian Airways have lists/stamps of visitors to their country?

SK.

If GW took Anna to Italy, wouldn't she have become an illegal immigrant once her visa ran out? Would the Italian government have lists of people that have over stayed their visa? Maybe someone could contact the Italian consulate and find out. If they do have lists we might be able to get the names of any children, girls and boys (it would be easy to cut Anna's hair and dress her as a boy) that over stayed their visa in 1973.

Pink Panther
03-22-2010, 01:34 PM
If GW took Anna to Italy, wouldn't she have become an illegal immigrant once her visa ran out? Would the Italian government have lists of people that have over stayed their visa? Maybe someone could contact the Italian consulate and find out. If they do have lists we might be able to get the names of any children, girls and boys (it would be easy to cut Anna's hair and dress her as a boy) that over stayed their visa in 1973.
I do remember reading about a possible connection to Italy a while back but I cannot remember why it was made. Can someone please refresh my memory!

: )

Annasmom
03-22-2010, 02:13 PM
I do remember reading about a possible connection to Italy a while back but I cannot remember why it was made. Can someone please refresh my memory!

: )

GW's notes mentioned a visit to the Italian Consultate.

Julessleuther
04-17-2010, 02:14 AM
I believe there were no Visas needed for Italy in the 1970's.


If GW took Anna to Italy, wouldn't she have become an illegal immigrant once her visa ran out? Would the Italian government have lists of people that have over stayed their visa? Maybe someone could contact the Italian consulate and find out. If they do have lists we might be able to get the names of any children, girls and boys (it would be easy to cut Anna's hair and dress her as a boy) that over stayed their visa in 1973.

SideKick
05-26-2010, 02:24 PM
Once again I thought it would be a good idea to reconsider the motive of The Plan, what it really mean't, the dates, MONY, stand for? Did anyone call them?

The Plan

1. Contact MONY--p (line on top) Final Arrangements - 2 L's have been made
2. Apply for $100,000. (January 1973)
3. 3 months negotiate -c (line on top) ACE
4. 3 months later change B (beneficiary)?

I know we have battered this before but the January 1973 is very interesting, then the next 6 months they negotiate and change Beneficiary...

So then we're looking at March and June for the beneficiary change.

This may have been answered in the past, does anyone recall if MONY was called to see if there is any paperwork on Waters account? Does MONY still exist?
Waters Bank account: was that ever looked into? Did he have one in near the Tenderloin?

Fresh Ideas Welcome! :propeller:

Thanks SK

annemc2
05-28-2010, 01:28 AM
Looks like MONY still exists as AXA Equitable.

And the p with line is medspeak for "after"; the c with line means "with."

I'm thinking ACE = Anna Christian Eiffee

The 2 L's - now that has me stumped.

Cubby
05-28-2010, 01:48 AM
link to and copied photo of the plan

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11624535@N08/1139982159/in/set-72157601489072011/



http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1015/1139982159_f2d98de93b_o.jpg

Cubby
05-28-2010, 02:01 AM
We intially interpreted to mean something close to.

Contact MONY (mutual of ?) with final arrangements after Lloyds ( of london ) ? been made.

Interpreted to mean make arrangements with one insurance company after arrangements with the other had been made.

Apply for ACE as B-scratched out.

Interpreted as make arrangements for Anne Christian Eifee as Beneficiary - changed to B.

3 months later increase to 5 - still ace (still Anna as beneficiary)

3 months later change to B
interpreted as meaning to Brody.

In either of the best or worst case scenario- it is apparent they were scratching for legitimate reasons to provide an insurance provider with a good reason for such a substantial amount of insurance to be provided to GB.

It is not easy in todays age, I think, to easily obtain a half million dollar life insurance police. The increases would have set off a red flag to the carrier. The two G's known habits would easily fall into finding ways around the red flags.

Leaves me with the how to? for the two G's.

I'm sure that is clear as mud..... but possible an angle with Berns dream about a wallet, stolen identity, matching up with a deceased child?

OzzieMum
05-28-2010, 05:32 AM
We intially interpreted to mean something close to.

Contact MONY (mutual of ?) with final arrangements after Lloyds ( of london ) ? been made.

Interpreted to mean make arrangements with one insurance company after arrangements with the other had been made.

Apply for ACE as B-scratched out.

Interpreted as make arrangements for Anne Christian Eifee as Beneficiary - changed to B.

3 months later increase to 5 - still ace (still Anna as beneficiary)

3 months later change to B
interpreted as meaning to Brody.

In either of the best or worst case scenario- it is apparent they were scratching for legitimate reasons to provide an insurance provider with a good reason for such a substantial amount of insurance to be provided to GB.

It is not easy in todays age, I think, to easily obtain a half million dollar life insurance police. The increases would have set off a red flag to the carrier. The two G's known habits would easily fall into finding ways around the red flags.

Leaves me with the how to? for the two G's.

I'm sure that is clear as mud..... but possible an angle with Berns dream about a wallet, stolen identity, matching up with a deceased child?

Hi Cubby,

I've been thinking for some time that we should have a thread just for the squibb notes. That way we could have them all in one place and post our interpretations of them. It would also make it so much easier to find a particular squibb note when we want to refer back to them if they are all at the start of the thread.

I would do it if I knew how :(

Don't know what you think, let me know.

Cubby
05-28-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm not sure we need a seperate thread for squib notes at this time but we can keep the option open.

I'm not sure if members realize by clicking on the paper clip icon to the right of the thread title it gives the direct link to attachments.

Here is the link for the attachments, including the squib notes, from the BFH thread part 1.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=50434

Does this help?

SideKick
05-28-2010, 12:25 PM
Looks like MONY still exists as AXA Equitable.

And the p with line is medspeak for "after"; the c with line means "with."

I'm thinking ACE = Anna Christian Eiffee

The 2 L's - now that has me stumped.

~

2L's = Loans?


The MONY family of companies, which became wholly owned subsidiaries of AXA Financial, Inc., on July 8, 2004, includes MONY Life Insurance Company and MONY Life Insurance Company of America.
The links and information below will help you find information and resources formerly available at MONY.com.

MONY clients can access policy and contract information and execute online transactions by registering and/or logging in using the login box on this page. Those who had already registered on MONY.com's My MONY system can use that ID/password combination here.MONY International

http://www.axa-equitable.com/axa/mony.html

~

MONY: Toll Free Telephone within the U.S.A. 1-866-631-1975 if anyone wants to give a shot at calling and asking a question or two regarding accounts from the 60'-70's.

Old accounts could be archived however I've known people who work for companies for years... who knows, the Rep may still be around tho longshot!

It may take and LE to get information on a missing person's case tho, but...doesn't hurt to ask MONY.

OzzieMum
05-28-2010, 06:07 PM
I'm not sure we need a seperate thread for squib notes at this time but we can keep the option open.

I'm not sure if members realize by clicking on the paper clip icon to the right of the thread title it gives the direct link to attachments.

Here is the link for the attachments, including the squib notes, from the BFH thread part 1.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=50434

Does this help?

Wow. Thanks Cubby. I didn't know about that and yes, it does help.

Skully
05-28-2010, 07:02 PM
~

2L's = Loans?


The MONY family of companies, which became wholly owned subsidiaries of AXA Financial, Inc., on July 8, 2004, includes MONY Life Insurance Company and MONY Life Insurance Company of America.
The links and information below will help you find information and resources formerly available at MONY.com.

MONY clients can access policy and contract information and execute online transactions by registering and/or logging in using the login box on this page. Those who had already registered on MONY.com's My MONY system can use that ID/password combination here.MONY International

http://www.axa-equitable.com/axa/mony.html

~

MONY: Toll Free Telephone within the U.S.A. 1-866-631-1975 if anyone wants to give a shot at calling and asking a question or two regarding accounts from the 60'-70's.

Old accounts could be archived however I've known people who work for companies for years... who knows, the Rep may still be around tho longshot!

It may take and LE to get information on a missing person's case tho, but...doesn't hurt to ask MONY.

I have no problem calling anyone, Annasmom can testify to that! Would some of you just give me some questions that need to be asked? I will call after Memorial Day, June 1st and post how it goes......

Annasmom
05-28-2010, 08:53 PM
Looks like MONY still exists as AXA Equitable.

And the p with line is medspeak for "after"; the c with line means "with."

I'm thinking ACE = Anna Christian Eiffee

The 2 L's - now that has me stumped.

There's only one L, but it almost positively means Lloyd's of London, since that's the firm he had the big insurance policy with.

glorybug
06-02-2010, 02:30 AM
Contact MONY after final arrangements with Lloyds have been made. (Jan 1973)
(Most likely a reference to making sure Lloyds has accepted and processed the insurance application before applying to Mony. Applying to 2 different companies at the same time could result in one being denied. The contact date planned for Mony as being Jan 1973.)

Apply for $100,000 ACE with as Beneficiary. ('eneficiary' scratched out)
(Apply for a $110k insurance policy with Mony with Anna Christian Effie as beneficiary in Jan 1973.)

3 months later negotiate increase to 5 still with ACE.
(In April 1973 apply to have the premium increased to $500k, with Anna still as beneficiary)

3 months later change to B.
(In July 1973 change the beneficiary.)

Thoughts-

This looks like a pretty calculated way to use Anna in order to increase one of their life insurance policies. It doesn't seem like it could be for Anna, since you can't be the beneficiary of your own policy. It is possible that applying for life insurance with a child as beneficiary would be less suspicious than with a beneficiary that is a grown man who is not related to you- but after a couple of months, changing the benefciary would not be questioned.

Considering how paranoid they were, it's odd that if they had nothing to do with Anna's disappearance they would risk possibly dying between Jan 1973 and July 1973 and having Anna get the money, unless they knew she wouldn't be around to collect it.

At the same time, based on their use of Anna, and their love of money, if they had planned to kill her, they appear devious enough to have set up some insurance fraud to have collected from life insurance on her. Although I often have wondered if maybe something went wrong in their plan, and something did happen to Anna (which it appears GW might have been able to make 'disappear'), their 'PLAN' did not originally have that in mind.

LLOYDS, LONDON
$100,000
$175
6/12/1972
6/12/1973

AM HOME ASSOC
$500,000
7/20/1973

I'm guessing this is what they did instead? AM Home Assoc instead of Mony?


Is there any explanation for why (other than travel), insurance was purchased almost monthly for such a long time? What happened to all those policies after each of their deaths? I'm guessing some of GWs were voided by a suicide clause?
__________________

I've been lurking here for 3 years- this is my first post.

Skully
06-02-2010, 10:27 AM
I called MONY, and spoke with a representative. She told me that not being family or person involved in the policy I am not going to get that information.

Annasmom will have to sign the letter, we can write it, but it has to be sign by you. Do we have a policy number? or just notes?

I would also say, that your new FBI agent could get much farther than us, I would think.

I can pen the letter or you can have the agent inquire.

Policy Holders Services
P.O. Box 4720
Syracuse N.Y. 13221

Let me know how to handle this. She said if the policy is still enforced they will have a record, or if it is microfilmed there will be a record. She doesn't know until they get all the names involved, a policy number, dates, things that will aid them in finding the information.

Annasmom
06-02-2010, 11:21 AM
I called MONY, and spoke with a representative. She told me that not being family or person involved in the policy I am not going to get that information.

Annasmom will have to sign the letter, we can write it, but it has to be sign by you. Do we have a policy number? or just notes?

I would also say, that your new FBI agent could get much farther than us, I would think.

I can pen the letter or you can have the agent inquire.

Policy Holders Services
P.O. Box 4720
Syracuse N.Y. 13221

Let me know how to handle this. She said if the policy is still enforced they will have a record, or if it is microfilmed there will be a record. She doesn't know until they get all the names involved, a policy number, dates, things that will aid them in finding the information.

SherlockJr has all the insurance policies, so I do not have access to the numbers right now. Of course I'd be glad to sign the letter, but we need the information first.

Skully
06-02-2010, 12:01 PM
SherlockJr has all the insurance policies, so I do not have access to the numbers right now. Of course I'd be glad to sign the letter, but we need the information first.

Wonderful! I didn't know if there were any actual policies or not, but I can get with Sherlock and pen off a letter, and send to you to sign. I don't know what we will get from this, but I feel as if we need to at least try.

glorybug
06-02-2010, 03:51 PM
Who was paying for rent and bills for Brody when Margaret was ill and in the hospital, and Brody didn't work? Had Brody already managed to get GW to pay for everything? Did he meet GW in time to get him to start paying for everything instead of Margaret? Who was paying his bills before Margaret?

Any idea whether Margaret had a life insurance policy? If so, was Brody somehow able to collect on it? Since they weren't married, and she supposedly had no family, would there be records from the county showing who handled her estate?

Does GWs check registry show him directly paying for any/all of Brody's bills/rent? Or is it likely that cash withdrawals were just handed over to Brody?

Does it appear that Brody never had his own checking account (he had a safe deposit box- can you get those without an account?), or that he had one and GW ust erased all paper trail to it?

Do docs show that instead of increasing the LL ins to $500k in July, because they wanted Brody identification or proof of credit, he cancelled and got a $500k policy elsewhere? Considering GWs line of work, couldn't he have just stolen the identity of any of the men who died in the hospital for Brody? Use the DC info to request a BC, and then have Brody use that? It was not mandatory back then to have a SS# for anything. He could have used the dead person's BC to open a checking acct, get an ID, etc. It makes no sense to insist that an insurance company use a 'photo' as ID to allow Brody to collect funds. How was he planning to collect the funds? over $500k in unmarked one dollar bills? Makes no sense. How was he going to get that money and then not pay taxes? Or pay taxes with no SS#?

It seems like the smart thing to do would have been to have just gotten him a new identity.

Annasmom
06-02-2010, 04:28 PM
Who was paying for rent and bills for Brody when Margaret was ill and in the hospital, and Brody didn't work? Had Brody already managed to get GW to pay for everything? Did he meet GW in time to get him to start paying for everything instead of Margaret? Who was paying his bills before Margaret?

Any idea whether Margaret had a life insurance policy? If so, was Brody somehow able to collect on it? Since they weren't married, and she supposedly had no family, would there be records from the county showing who handled her estate?

Does GWs check registry show him directly paying for any/all of Brody's bills/rent? Or is it likely that cash withdrawals were just handed over to Brody?

Does it appear that Brody never had his own checking account (he had a safe deposit box- can you get those without an account?), or that he had one and GW ust erased all paper trail to it?

Do docs show that instead of increasing the LL ins to $500k in July, because they wanted Brody identification or proof of credit, he cancelled and got a $500k policy elsewhere? Considering GWs line of work, couldn't he have just stolen the identity of any of the men who died in the hospital for Brody? Use the DC info to request a BC, and then have Brody use that? It was not mandatory back then to have a SS# for anything. He could have used the dead person's BC to open a checking acct, get an ID, etc. It makes no sense to insist that an insurance company use a 'photo' as ID to allow Brody to collect funds. How was he planning to collect the funds? over $500k in unmarked one dollar bills? Makes no sense. How was he going to get that money and then not pay taxes? Or pay taxes with no SS#?

It seems like the smart thing to do would have been to have just gotten him a new identity.

"Makes no sense" could apply to most of what we know about these people. I wish I could answer some of your questions, but I only know the answer to two. The public guardian was responsible for Margaret, since she was in the state hospital. I think Brody had power of attorney. Waters almost certainly bought clothing and gifts for Brody, but it is difficult to know how the bills were paid.

I meant to welcome you to Anna's search and to thank you for your questions, but am just now getting to it. Thank you.

glorybug
06-02-2010, 09:14 PM
Random thoughts.

Several people have brought up the possibility that both M and Brody were gay, and were essentially covering for each other. I'm not sure I buy that. In my experience with both gay men and women does not back this up. My experience is that I've known several gay men who have become fixated on or worshiping of a straight woman, and the same with lesbian women. I've never had a gay male friend with an obsession with a lesbian woman, nor a lesbian woman hugely attached to a gay man. Friends, yes. But not the way the relationship with M and Brody is described.

The fact that M supposedly does not have children does not mean she never married, (or that she was gay) and it seems likely she might have married, even if briefly. But, if other stories are to be believed about how she got her nursing creds revoked, it seems likely that if she ever did become pregnant, she would certainly know how to 'fix' it. Just saying.

I have read this thread for about 3 years now without commenting- it's so hard to keep up with all the facts. Such as when GW was told that Anna was missing, and how. Were the 2 Georges reported as not having been at the hotel for a couple of weeks 'after' being told, or before? No helping with the searching?

I know a lot has been focussed on Brody, and his 'mesmerizing' personality (excuse me while I gag), but isn't it at all possible that GW was actually very bitter towards annasmom because she wanted a divorce? I say this because I wanted a divorce from my ex, he left, and I've now put up with over 4 agonizing years of being taken to court for custody, and every fight you can think of about CS and SS. After stopping paying SS, he stopped paying CS, and I have recently lost the home I paid for. My ex, like GW makes a lot of money- he just doesn't want to pay a penny of it to me. And, though I had sole custody of our children and lived alone with them for 8 years, even while married, the second we started divorce proceedings, he filed for full custody. Which is weird, because it really seems like his reasoning is not that he's mad that we didn't get along or not like each other, or that he missed the kids he never bothered to spend time with- it's that I had the nerve to not want to be married to him any more. And, I have since met a great guy I'm engaged to. My point is, is it not likely that some of the motivation (if the 2 georges actually conspired to abduct Anna) wasn't completely the Brody magic, but partly GW being angry that annasmom wanted a divorce, found some great new guy, and a good way to punish her would be to take away something she loved? It doesn't help solve the case, but doesn't that change the motivation somewhat?

The 2 Georges could have just lived their lives on their own terms. GW could have just sent the measly CS payments and gotten on with his life, or he could have offered to have the step-dad adopt Anna, in which case he would have had to pay nothing. From what I have read about annasmom, I think she might have agreed. I know that if my ex offered to continue paying nothing, but let my fiance adopt our kids, I'd agree in a heartbeat. My point is, there were other ways to solve the CS issue. Is it not possible that part of GWs motivation was revenge against annasmom? And that Brody helped him acheive that?

These are just thoughts. Do with them as you will.

Annasmom
06-02-2010, 09:58 PM
Random thoughts.

Several people have brought up the possibility that both M and Brody were gay, and were essentially covering for each other. I'm not sure I buy that. In my experience with both gay men and women does not back this up.. ..
The fact that M supposedly does not have children does not mean she never married, (or that she was gay) and it seems likely she might have married, even if briefly.

I have read this thread for about 3 years now without commenting- it's so hard to keep up with all the facts. Such as when GW was told that Anna was missing, and how. Were the 2 Georges reported as not having been at the hotel for a couple of weeks 'after' being told, or before? No helping with the searching?

I know a lot has been focussed on Brody, and his 'mesmerizing' personality (excuse me while I gag), but isn't it at all possible that GW was actually very bitter towards annasmom because she wanted a divorce? ... My point is, is it not likely that some of the motivation (if the 2 georges actually conspired to abduct Anna) wasn't completely the Brody magic, but partly GW being angry that annasmom wanted a divorce, found some great new guy, and a good way to punish her would be to take away something she loved? It doesn't help solve the case, but doesn't that change the motivation somewhat?

The 2 Georges could have just lived their lives on their own terms. GW could have just sent the measly CS payments and gotten on with his life, or he could have offered to have the step-dad adopt Anna, in which case he would have had to pay nothing. From what I have read about annasmom, I think she might have agreed. I know that if my ex offered to continue paying nothing, but let my fiance adopt our kids, I'd agree in a heartbeat. My point is, there were other ways to solve the CS issue. Is it not possible that part of GWs motivation was revenge against annasmom? And that Brody helped him acheive that?

These are just thoughts. Do with them as you will.

Glorybug, thanks for your thoughts. It is difficult for normal people to really fathom the extent of GB and GW's delusional system. It was a guru-disciple relationship--without any overt sexual content, in my opinion--which depended upon GB being right about everything and GW constantly proving that he was worth his status as disciple. Certainly Brody had built up an entire scenario showing that I was not fit to live, much less be a parent (with a subtext that I was "in love" with him--talk about gagging--with all sorts of sermons on the subject.)

GW asked for and received joint custody of Anna, though he never visited or communicated with her. I don't believe the motivation was revenge. However, since Joe Ford and I were married in September and Anna disappeared the following January, the desire to maintain control might have entered the picture. There was never any question of "allowing" adoption or helping with the search. There was no contact whatsoever. I can't believe child support was an issue. $175 a month? Please.

The police told GW about Anna's disappearance. A lab slip was found with his papers showing that he was at the Mission Neighborhood Health Center at the time she disappeared. The Sheriff's office nonetheless had him followed for about a week. The two were gone for two weeks some time after Anna's disappearance, but we have this on the word of the hotel desk clerk, and he was not specific about the exact time and did not know where they had gone.

I'm sorry about your house and the hard things you have gone through. Hopefully things will get better soon. I hope this answers some of your questions. You are right that the Forum contents are so enormous, it's hard to put the story together. Cubby has helped a lot by trying to group things by subject.

Reels
06-03-2010, 02:07 PM
I know this is not contributing in any way right now, but omg I can see why this is the BFH. I am going to have to drink some coffee before I come back to tackle this. lol My stars.

I only got part way through the first thread on this, and saw someone said Margaret was dead (rip) by the time Anna was kidnapped. Then they wondered if her identity were used in some way to conceal Anna. Have you guys looked into that idea? I'm sorry if you have and I missed it. I wonder if there were a numerological examination of a combination of Margaret's and Anna's names.

SherlockJr
06-04-2010, 10:06 AM
Wonderful! I didn't know if there were any actual policies or not, but I can get with Sherlock and pen off a letter, and send to you to sign. I don't know what we will get from this, but I feel as if we need to at least try.

Sorry for my absence lately. Been busy spending time with my father who is not well. Preparing for high school graduation of my youngest and on the same night as graduation my oldest daughter had a baby girl.

Bern, I will pm you the insurance information with policy numbers today! I hope they still have this information available.

glorybug
06-04-2010, 12:42 PM
"It was a guru-disciple relationship--without any overt sexual content, in my opinion--which depended upon GB being right about everything and GW constantly proving that he was worth his status as disciple."

Did GW act this way when you were married? Did he show any clue that he would be easily manipulated before he met Brody?

"(with a subtext that I was "in love" with him--talk about gagging"

Um, I've seen his pics. In love? Absolute proof that he was 9 kinds of crazy!

"GW asked for and received joint custody of Anna, though he never visited or communicated with her."

What do you suppose was the reason for him asking for joint custody, if he never visited or had contact with Anna? Was it simply to reduce the amount of child support to be paid?

Considering that GW was the father, did not help with searching, and took off fr vacation after her abduction, didn't LE interview him? Are there no records of them talking to him or questioning him about it?

M got her nursing lic revoked because of performing 'illegal procedures'? Is there documentation of this? Are there any other illegal procedures besides abortions? If Brody was living with her at the time, is there any indication he was involved with that business?

I've seen Brody's handwriting. You don't need any further proof he was bat***** crazy. But he still had some semblance of rational thinking- the only reason he could have been so paranoid as to not just get another ID (which would have been easy back then) would be if he had done something SO bad that he irrationally thought getting another ID would not fix it. Just my thoughts.

Thank you for welcoming me, annasmom. Like I said, I have been reading here for about 3 years, but never posted because for some reason when I initially tried to become a member there was a glitch that wouldn't let me. The other day I tried again and it went through.

Annasmom
06-04-2010, 01:53 PM
"It was a guru-disciple relationship--without any overt sexual content, in my opinion--which depended upon GB being right about everything and GW constantly proving that he was worth his status as disciple."

Did GW act this way when you were married? Did he show any clue that he would be easily manipulated before he met Brody?

"(with a subtext that I was "in love" with him--talk about gagging"

Um, I've seen his pics. In love? Absolute proof that he was 9 kinds of crazy!

"GW asked for and received joint custody of Anna, though he never visited or communicated with her."

What do you suppose was the reason for him asking for joint custody, if he never visited or had contact with Anna? Was it simply to reduce the amount of child support to be paid?

Considering that GW was the father, did not help with searching, and took off fr vacation after her abduction, didn't LE interview him? Are there no records of them talking to him or questioning him about it?

M got her nursing lic revoked because of performing 'illegal procedures'? Is there documentation of this? Are there any other illegal procedures besides abortions? If Brody was living with her at the time, is there any indication he was involved with that business?

I've seen Brody's handwriting. You don't need any further proof he was bat***** crazy. But he still had some semblance of rational thinking- the only reason he could have been so paranoid as to not just get another ID (which would have been easy back then) would be if he had done something SO bad that he irrationally thought getting another ID would not fix it. Just my thoughts.

Thank you for welcoming me, annasmom. Like I said, I have been reading here for about 3 years, but never posted because for some reason when I initially tried to become a member there was a glitch that wouldn't let me. The other day I tried again and it went through.

Glorybug, I'm glad the membership worked for you. You ask "Did GW act this way when you were married?" I have to say no, we had some good years, but on the other hand, I think he was probably unprepared for marriage and wanted somehow to extricate himself. He was a highly moral and idealistic person, but at the time GB came on the scene, obviously he was psychologically and emotionally vulnerable to having a hero figure and having someone else make all his decisions for him.

"In love.." GB was a kind of dirty old man. He would pretend to pick lint off the front of my sweater, for instance. You could hardly make a scene, even though you knew your reaction would be the topic of the night's discussion once GB and GW were alone.

Regarding joint custody: I believe GW really loved Anna. I think he wanted a custody agreement which would make him appear blameless. Whether or not this anticipated his taking her away at some future date I do not know.

Yes, there is documentation of the reason MK lost her license. Because this is an open forum and at one point her relatives may have been reading the posts, we chose not to elaborate. Unfortunately, we seem to have alienated the family anyway, and they decided not to offer any further information. The only suggestion that Brody was involved in this was the rather furtive way he gave GW some medical equipment (a stethoscope and I think maybe a microscope, though I'm not sure of this) after MK died.

LE did in fact interview GW after Anna disappeared, and as I say, then Sgt. Brendan Maguire followed him for some time, but this does not appear in the official police report. I remember Maguire telling us what an erratic driver GW was, how he would slow down until traffic lights turned amber and then speed across intersections so that cars behind him would be caught by the red light. Maguire's impression was that his behavior was clearly strange, but that he couldn't find any direct link to Anna's disappearance.

melanie 23
06-04-2010, 04:24 PM
LE did in fact interview GW after Anna disappeared, and as I say, then Sgt. Brendan Maguire followed him for some time, but this does not appear in the official police report. I remember Maguire telling us what an erratic driver GW was, how he would slow down until traffic lights turned amber and then speed across intersections so that cars behind him would be caught by the red light. Maguire's impression was that his behavior was clearly strange, but that he couldn't find any direct link to Anna's disappearance.

It is possible that GW was driving in that manner because he knew he was being followed? It sounds as if he was attempting to lose anyone who may have been following by causing them to get stopped by the red light?

Just a thought!

Annasmom
06-04-2010, 05:33 PM
It is possible that GW was driving in that manner because he knew he was being followed? It sounds as if he was attempting to lose anyone who may have been following by causing them to get stopped by the red light?

Just a thought!
Hi, Melanie: good to see you here. I think you are right, but I think he probably thought he was being followed even when he wasn't.

branwynbreeze
06-05-2010, 05:27 PM
Hello all. Holy cow, I cannot keep all this straight. I found something that means nothing, but may be related to some of the Georges' beliefs.

In one of the attachments GW notes letter to be written to Rosicrucians.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=393&d=1196797233

I cannot find Rosicrucians being mentioned in posts, so forgive me if they have been. In, perhaps it was Seka, there is mention of Kabala. Rosicrucians use Greek version of kabala.

http://www.crcsite.org/GreekKabala1.htm

I find this a bit interesting, wondering if GB/GW were following this:
2. Rosenkreuz nurtured 8 disciples who were doctors and sworn bachelors. They promised to heal the sick for free, maintain secret fellowship and find replacements when they died.

http://www.fallenandflawed.com/roscrucians-obscure-cult/

I haven't time to ponder rest of 13 facts as I am meeting a friend soon, but throwing this out to ya all,

Annasmom
06-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Hello all. Holy cow, I cannot keep all this straight. I found something that means nothing, but may be related to some of the Georges' beliefs.

In one of the attachments GW notes letter to be written to Rosicrucians.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=393&d=1196797233

I cannot find Rosicrucians being mentioned in posts, so forgive me if they have been. In, perhaps it was Seka, there is mention of Kabala. Rosicrucians use Greek version of kabala.

http://www.crcsite.org/GreekKabala1.htm

I find this a bit interesting, wondering if GB/GW were following this:
2. Rosenkreuz nurtured 8 disciples who were doctors and sworn bachelors. They promised to heal the sick for free, maintain secret fellowship and find replacements when they died.

http://www.fallenandflawed.com/roscrucians-obscure-cult/

I haven't time to ponder rest of 13 facts as I am meeting a friend soon, but throwing this out to ya all,
Branwyngreeze, love your name. I don't think GB and GW had any connection with the Rosicrucians other than GW's ordering two star charts (ephemeris) from the organization,presumably for GW to look at for astrology comments. Certainly what you suggest is worth our notice.

Dr. Doogie
06-07-2010, 01:23 PM
I was of the belief that the two Georges had a homosexual component to their relationship based primarily on the reference to "Damron" being mentioned in relation to a vacation that Waters was planning. (Damron is the name of a gay-friendly vacation guide book.) However, I do not believe that to be the case now since it was discovered that "Damron" was also the name of a diplomat at the Italian Consulate in San Francisco. This explaination makes more sense to me.

Annasmom
06-07-2010, 01:33 PM
I was of the belief that the two Georges had a homosexual component to their relationship based primarily on the reference to "Damron" being mentioned in relation to a vacation that Waters was planning. (Damron is the name of a gay-friendly vacation guide book.) However, I do not believe that to be the case now since it was discovered that "Damron" was also the name of a diplomat at the Italian Consulate in San Francisco. This explaination makes more sense to me. Doogie, can you send me details about this diplomat? I am researching stuff for the Italian TV program. Interesting: GW was in Italy on at least two occasions before Anna was born (Florence in 1963, for instance.) And in the Squibbs, there is a note about an aria from Italian opera, spelled wrong, but I found it and had it translated. "Sweet little girl", it begins. Curiouser and curiouser.

Regarding homosexuality: Remember that GW had hoped to evade the draft after his conscientious objector claim was denied by (falsely?) claiming homosexuality. He had a friend write a letter in support of this claim. The letter was completely made-up; I am in regular contact with this friend and he would have no reason to lie about this.

glorybug
06-07-2010, 02:15 PM
I am going to throw some ideas out here.

Annasmom, were you able to search for ANY passport GW had, or just the one that you knew about and its replacement? Is it possible he had other passports?

Sorry, but I don't recall if GW's passport was in the BFH. If it was, do the dates stamped in it match the financial records and insurance records for the time periods?

Is there any proof that Brody had a passport? Any proof that he accompanied GW at any time when he went out of the country?

You state that you have no doubt that GW loved Anna, yet he abandoned you and her for a babbling idiot guru, resented paying CS, appeared to be concerned about possibly having to pay more, stopped paying CS before it was even clear if she would turn up, did not have anything to do with her, did not search for her, and took a vacation within weeks of her disappearance. I've heard nothing about him bothering to search for her at all. Heard nothing about him sending her letters, visiting or sending presents. This really does not sound to me like someone who loves or cares about a child, unless the other party is restricting their access, and you don't sound like the kind of person who would do that. The premise that he might have been involved with her abduction does not point to a person who loves their child. I admire the fact that you are pretty positive in your comments about him, but I do have to say I find it confusing. If I felt that my ex was in any way responsible for the disappearance of my child, I would despise them. I'm having a hard time understanding that.

Hmm. That thing. The fact that he immediately stopped paying CS, even though he would have no idea if she might just turn up at a house down the road or somewhere else a few weeks later, says a lot. No body had turned up. It tells me he was pretty sure she wouldn't.

I find the whole numerology/naming thing interesting, but I have doubts about it having anything to do with this case. Most crimes are committed in very simplistc ways, and for very petty, emotional reasons. My ex does/has done a million bizarre things, but none of those things has anything to do with the fact that he's decided he really isn't obligated to pay child support. Interesting yes. But doesn't solve the problem.

Annasmom
06-07-2010, 02:25 PM
I am going to throw some ideas out here.

Annasmom, were you able to search for ANY passport GW had, or just the one that you knew about and its replacement? Is it possible he had other passports?

Is there any proof that Brody had a passport? Any proof that he accompanied GW at any time when he went out of the country?

You state that you have no doubt that GW loved Anna, yet he abandoned you and her for a babbling idiot guru, resented paying CS, appeared to be concerned about possibly having to pay more, stopped paying CS before it was even clear if she would turn up, did not have anything to do with her, did not search for her, and took a vacation within weeks of her disappearance. I've heard nothing about him bothering to search for her at all. Heard nothing about him sending her letters, visiting or sending presents. This really does not sound to me like someone who loves or cares about a child, unless the other party is restricting their access, and you don't sound like the kind of person who would do that. The premise that he might have been involved with her abduction does not point to a person who loves their child. I admire the fact that you are pretty positive in your comments about him, but I do have to say I find it confusing. If I felt that my ex was in any way responsible for the disappearance of my child, I would despise them. I'm having a hard time understanding that.

Hmm. That thing. The fact that he immediately stopped paying CS, even though he would have no idea if she might just turn up at a house down the road or somewhere else a few weeks later, says a lot. No body had turned up. It tells me he was pretty sure she wouldn't.



Glorybug, there were no actual passports found. What I have is all GW's four of passport applications, including one made while he had a valid passport which he claimed had been destroyed by fire. This would have been the passport with entry and exit stamps in it which showed where he had traveled. Regarding the huge topic of Love, one must remember that mental illness played a part in this drama and that one cannot be angry with someone because they are ill. I have forgiven Waters. I am still working on forgiving Brody for alienating GW from all his friends and family. I am not making much progress on this effort, I have to say.

glorybug
06-08-2010, 05:32 PM
A question for annasmom-

I think I recall you saying that there were tons of insurance applications from airlines/travels? That they were all for GW with the beneficiary being Brody?

Has anyone sorted them by date and/or made a timeline of when each was purchased? I'm guessing that if you buy a round trip ticket that involves a layover or transfer to another airline that more than one policy would have to be bought? Is there any way to determine how far a trip was by how expensive the insurance was, or if it was international flights (guessing that insurance would be more?)? Is it assumed that all of the flights and insurance were purchased from a San Francisco airport? Are there any financial records or bank statements from GW that have withdrawals on the dates the insurance was purchased?

For example, say there was inexpensive insurance bought on 03/15, and there was a withdrawal for $50, that would hint at a short flight. If there were 2 or more policies that were purchased within a day or two of each other, and a larger withdrawal made soon before than, that would hint at a possible layover flight/international flight.

Annasmom
06-08-2010, 06:58 PM
A question for annasmom-

I think I recall you saying that there were tons of insurance applications from airlines/travels? That they were all for GW with the beneficiary being Brody?

Has anyone sorted them by date and/or made a timeline of when each was purchased? I'm guessing that if you buy a round trip ticket that involves a layover or transfer to another airline that more than one policy would have to be bought? Is there any way to determine how far a trip was by how expensive the insurance was, or if it was international flights (guessing that insurance would be more?)? Is it assumed that all of the flights and insurance were purchased from a San Francisco airport? Are there any financial records or bank statements from GW that have withdrawals on the dates the insurance was purchased?

For example, say there was inexpensive insurance bought on 03/15, and there was a withdrawal for $50, that would hint at a short flight. If there were 2 or more policies that were purchased within a day or two of each other, and a larger withdrawal made soon before than, that would hint at a possible layover flight/international flight.
Glorybug,
SherlockJr has listed the insurance policies in the Thread BFH No. 1 at about page 16.

glorybug
06-09-2010, 04:34 AM
Ah, thank you. I'll look them over.

I can't imagine how hard it would be to be you, and to be asked the same questions over and over.

You have a lot of patience.

Annasmom
06-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Ah, thank you. I'll look them over.

I can't imagine how hard it would be to be you, and to be asked the same questions over and over.

You have a lot of patience. Oh, Glorybug, it is easy to be me, and OF COURSE I don't mind questions from people who are trying to help me. I didn't try to sum up those insurance things because I was eager to go out to dinner yesterday!

Pink Panther
06-09-2010, 05:14 PM
...GW was in Italy on at least two occasions before Anna was born (Florence in 1963, for instance.) And in the Squibbs, there is a note about an aria from Italian opera, spelled wrong, but I found it and had it translated. "Sweet little girl", it begins. Curiouser and curiouser.

Annasmom - What was the Squibbs note for the aria??? I don't think I've seen this or if I have, I missed it. Do you know what opera it was/what aria specifically??? Can you share the words that were in the notes?

Annasmom
06-09-2010, 06:29 PM
Annasmom - What was the Squibbs note for the aria??? I don't think I've seen this or if I have, I missed it. Do you know what opera it was/what aria specifically??? Can you share the words that were in the notes?

It's on the page which has "Final Solution" outlined in red and says "Suave Panchula - La Boheme. He must have meant "O Soave Fanciulla". There are several other notes about music on this page.

Cubby
06-09-2010, 07:19 PM
Would it help if I added the link to the attachments from the BFH threads up in one of the appropriate sticky forums? If I haven't already? Just thinking about making things a little easier to find if possible.

ETA: I can edit the title to the images only - no discussion thread in the sticky area and add the link and the helpful hint about clicking on the paper clip to the far right of the thread title to get links for all the attachments in a thread if you guys think that would help.

I'm open to suggestions and input :) Let me know if that might help.

TIA

OzzieMum
06-10-2010, 04:49 AM
Would it help if I added the link to the attachments from the BFH threads up in one of the appropriate sticky forums? If I haven't already? Just thinking about making things a little easier to find if possible.

ETA: I can edit the title to the images only - no discussion thread in the sticky area and add the link and the helpful hint about clicking on the paper clip to the far right of the thread title to get links for all the attachments in a thread if you guys think that would help.

I'm open to suggestions and input :) Let me know if that might help.

TIA

Hi Cubby,

I think it would be great ideas to have a "helpful hints for navigating your way around WS". You have given us some really good hints in the past eg; how to search the forums/threads, adding tags and most recently, the paper clip thingy, which I have found really helpful.

SideKick
07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
Hello, regarding the medical note left in the BFH, the name Romero. If this was left as a 'hint' from Waters ....

An Italian connection?

Cubby
07-15-2010, 02:04 AM
Hi Cubby,

I think it would be great ideas to have a "helpful hints for navigating your way around WS". You have given us some really good hints in the past eg; how to search the forums/threads, adding tags and most recently, the paper clip thingy, which I have found really helpful.

We have some threads set up for this outside of Anna's forum. They are in various places so I will help direct people to them as the questions arise. :)

Cubby

youshouldveknown
12-27-2011, 01:34 AM
link to and copied photo of the plan

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11624535@N08/1139982159/in/set-72157601489072011/



http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1015/1139982159_f2d98de93b_o.jpg



I'm just gonna throw this out here. When I first saw this, I initially thought the "L's" was actually "<'s" .. I know GW writes in shorthand a lot, and while in nursing school, it was common for us to use < and > for decrease and increase respectively.

I think "Lloyds" would make more sense, but I thought I'd mention just in case.

SideKick
04-23-2012, 01:15 PM
In regards to 'The Plan' above, I remember a couple of years ago all of us decifering what it mean't. The short forms etc. If this is all true with L's ... loans or Lloyds have we made sure we covered all idea's with this plan? The Jan 1973 date is pretty alarming, in fact, I think this is our best tip in the box! Again where were these 'loans' from? LLyods of London? Is there no building left so we can call to find out if there was a loan? But if this happened, wouldn't there be $$? Ok, money made/loans received, did the G's arrange an illegal adoption? No money trail otherthan the 17,000$ found in Brody's account. What happened to that money btw? Do we know?

Cubby
04-23-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm just gonna throw this out here. When I first saw this, I initially thought the "L's" was actually "<'s" .. I know GW writes in shorthand a lot, and while in nursing school, it was common for us to use < and > for decrease and increase respectively.

I think "Lloyds" would make more sense, but I thought I'd mention just in case.


Looking at it again, maybe not. What did we determine was MONY? Which insurance co?


In regards to 'The Plan' above, I remember a couple of years ago all of us decifering what it mean't. The short forms etc. If this is all true with L's ... loans or Lloyds have we made sure we covered all idea's with this plan? The Jan 1973 date is pretty alarming, in fact, I think this is our best tip in the box! Again where were these 'loans' from? LLyods of London? Is there no building left so we can call to find out if there was a loan? But if this happened, wouldn't there be $$? Ok, money made/loans received, did the G's arrange an illegal adoption? No money trail otherthan the 17,000$ found in Brody's account. What happened to that money btw? Do we know?


It sounds like an existing policy existed with MONY for which he was going to negotiate an increase in Jan of 1973 and then again in April of 1973. If this were the case, how would disappearing Anna in January work with an attempt to increase the policy amount in April?

AFAIK the money is still listed with the CA state list of uncollected funds. IIRC, any paperwork with the safe deposit box was destroyed long before Anna's case made it to WS.

For someone who grew up during the depression, it wasn't that uncommon to not trust banks. It's not that uncommon to hear about coins or paper money being found stashed between the walls of old homes. I recall a few from the 80's and 90's. Not so much anymore with the RE boom (before the market crashed).


There is no way for us to determine when GB put the money in the safe depost box. It's very possible MK took a life insurance policy out on herself and GB was the beneficiary and that is how he obtained the money.

SideKick
04-23-2012, 03:40 PM
[QUOTE=Cubby;7823107]Looking at it again, maybe not. What did we determine was MONY? Which insurance co?

~ We thought MONY stood for Mutual Of New York which then merged with AXA Financial Protection.

It sounds like an existing policy existed with MONY for which he was going to negotiate an increase in Jan of 1973 and then again in April of 1973. If this were the case, how would disappearing Anna in January work with an attempt to increase the policy amount in April?

~ Good Question - they could cash it later on which could help in the disappearance of Anna..? OH to have stepped inside Brody's head for 5 minutes! Also the medical slip found in the BFH referring that Waters worked on the 16th January. A patient named Romero ....
AFAIK the money is still listed with the CA state list of uncollected funds. IIRC, any paperwork with the safe deposit box was destroyed long before Anna's case made it to WS.

SideKick
04-23-2012, 03:50 PM
On this link, Doogies writes some interesting points about all of this plus a chilling ending....

Dr. Doogie04-09-2006, 04:09 PM
I have also found a list of alimony and child support payments in 1972 in George Waters' handwriting. It methodically lists alimony payments of $125 to Annasmom on the 15th of the months and $175 to Anna on the first of the months. There is a notation that say "D/C (discontinue) Alimony - Remarried 9/16/72". All payments had been made by Bank of America money order until this point. Waters made one more child support payment with a BofA money order on 10/1. His last three child support payments were made by personal check - he listed the payee on this list as "A.C.E.W." This matches the "Plan" note's reference to "A.C.E." This tells me that "A.C.E." is definitely Anna.

Child Support Discussion:

The list shows his last payment was made 1/1/73. Chillingly, the last entry on this list says "Anna Lost - 1/16/73".

So... all in all, very briefly, I believe they took Anna and gave her to someone as an illegal adoption and Anna didn't know she was adopted as people now a days are 'told' as a healthy aspect of life... rather if she was taken and given to another family, abducted... then who would tell her the truth unless her inner soul felt something is amiss? And then she searches for her truth. Damn those two boys!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37212.html

SideKick
05-15-2012, 02:26 PM
Bumping the squibbs in one spot!

Thanks again Cubby for combining these... Very interesting read!!


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=50434

marie-chantal
05-15-2012, 04:49 PM
I'm only about four memos in, but I'm just blown away by all the shadiness in these notes. Who sold them this policy? It looks like GB and GW may have been planning to either scam the insurance company by killing the person for whom the policy was written, or by giving Anna away in an illegal adoption and then later having her declared dead. Why were they concerned about creditors going after the money? Was this in reference to Anna's mother (for child-support) or were they indebted to someone? The PO Box set up sounds like they were planning to drop off the radar.

The notes about "not subjecting B to any unpleasantness" and "check sent only to shown address" are really alarming. I'm assuming that GB was the beneficiary? I don't know what the requirements were then, but I do know for sure that in many insurance policies and IRA accounts, SSNs MUST be supplied for your beneficiaries.


Has this policy application ever been found?

EDIT: found the Lloyds letter. They cancelled the app when Lloyds wanted to do a credit check

marie-chantal
05-15-2012, 05:07 PM
This is a rather personal question, and I'm really sorry to ask, but was GW trying to argue against paying child support in the year before Anna disappeared? Had he been trying to get out of legal obligations to Anna? In those notes, there's a weird memo about creating a will, leaving $1.00 to ACE. There's also something written about asking an atty if an executor would still be responsible for the debts of the deceased. I wonder if he was thinking of staging his death and leaving the country. It looks like he was really concerned about his debts. This is a theme that keeps coming up in these notes. What were his debts?

I also keep seeing quotes that GB apparently shared with GW. I can definitely see how GB was acting like some sort of spiritual leader or guru to GW. Creepy.

EDIT: It also appears that some of these notes contain dialogues that were written out in advance before a meeting. It looks like someone was giving GW instructions on what to say and ask when he spoke with insurance agents and lawyers.

marie-chantal
05-15-2012, 05:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that GB never traveled internationally or had any sort of higher education:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=697&d=1219333413

In this letter, he comments about the postal service and dates. He says something like, "your postcard was marked 10-7, but it reached San Francisco on August 27". Anyone who has traveled or lived abroad would know that 10/7 in other countries is July 7, not October 7. The US is one of the only places in the world where the month is written before the day. His parents may have been immigrants, but they were most likely not educated enough to have been writing dates on documents in the house (or anywhere that a young GB would have seen them).

Annasmom
05-16-2012, 12:41 PM
This is a rather personal question, and I'm really sorry to ask, but was GW trying to argue against paying child support in the year before Anna disappeared? Had he been trying to get out of legal obligations to Anna? In those notes, there's a weird memo about creating a will, leaving $1.00 to ACE. There's also something written about asking an atty if an executor would still be responsible for the debts of the deceased. I wonder if he was thinking of staging his death and leaving the country. It looks like he was really concerned about his debts. This is a theme that keeps coming up in these notes. What were his debts?

I also keep seeing quotes that GB apparently shared with GW. I can definitely see how GB was acting like some sort of spiritual leader or guru to GW. Creepy.

EDIT: It also appears that some of these notes contain dialogues that were written out in advance before a meeting. It looks like someone was giving GW instructions on what to say and ask when he spoke with insurance agents and lawyers.

Marie-Chantal, somehow GW had the idea that his child support payments would be increased when Anna reached a certain age, but I have no idea where this idea came from. It certainly was not in any document I had. And of course his support payments were minimal. From what we can gather, GW believed he was going to die and wanted to leave everything to GB. He had many, many life insurance policies with Brody as the beneficiary. I do not know what debts he may have had.

marie-chantal
05-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Marie-Chantal, somehow GW had the idea that his child support payments would be increased when Anna reached a certain age, but I have no idea where this idea came from. It certainly was not in any document I had. And of course his support payments were minimal. From what we can gather, GW believed he was going to die and wanted to leave everything to GB. He had many, many life insurance policies with Brody as the beneficiary. I do not know what debts he may have had.

It looks to me like he either planned to kill himself or like he planned to "kill" himself (i.e. make everyone think he was dead, and then flee the country). That's why I am curious about his concern over his debts, and whether or not debtors could got after his estate. I wonder if he realized the insurance scams wouldn't work out, became desperate, and decided to do something to Anna.

My guess about the belief that his child support obligation would increase as Anna aged came from GB. He probably told GW that as Anna got older, her expenses would increase (clothes, hobbies, etc). GW must have been very, very vulnerable and at a weird point in his life if GB was able to have such a hold on him.

Do you know of any other GB disciples? It sounds like Seka caught on to him fairly quickly. Were there any others?

Annasmom
05-16-2012, 02:56 PM
It looks to me like he either planned to kill himself or like he planned to "kill" himself (i.e. make everyone think he was dead, and then flee the country). That's why I am curious about his concern over his debts, and whether or not debtors could got after his estate. I wonder if he realized the insurance scams wouldn't work out, became desperate, and decided to do something to Anna.

My guess about the belief that his child support obligation would increase as Anna aged came from GB. He probably told GW that as Anna got older, her expenses would increase (clothes, hobbies, etc). GW must have been very, very vulnerable and at a weird point in his life if GB was able to have such a hold on him.

Do you know of any other GB disciples? It sounds like Seka caught on to him fairly quickly. Were there any others?

He adored Anna, even though he left when she was a year old and never made contact after that except, toward the last, to type the "Eifee" in her name on the envelopes which contained money orders for support. I don't believe he would ever have harmed her. I think GB, who claimed to have psychic powers, probably convinced him he was going to die...thus the insurance policies. No, the only disciples I know of were Margaret and then GW, though they were constantly trying to "enlist" people, starting with me.

Dr. Doogie
05-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Many of the insurance policies were "Accidental Death" policies, meaning that they would only pay out if the death was an accident, not from natural causes. These policies have a higher-than-normal payout (as compared to standard life insurance) since few people die from accidents versuses natural causes.

Most of the policies listed Brody as the beneficiary - this is why all of the notes making sure that only Brody would receive the benefits . The one policy listed in "the plan" note for Loyd's of London appears to have required the beneficiary be a family member if any were existing. This is why the note is important: a policy could be created with Anna as beneficiary, then if Anna disappeared, the policy could be changed to Brody as beneficary. This is a possible motive for Anna's disappearance - if the Georges were involved.

marie-chantal
05-17-2012, 04:19 PM
Many of the insurance policies were "Accidental Death" policies, meaning that they would only pay out if the death was an accident, not from natural causes. These policies have a higher-than-normal payout (as compared to standard life insurance) since few people die from accidents versuses natural causes.

Most of the policies listed Brody as the beneficiary - this is why all of the notes making sure that only Brody would receive the benefits . The one policy listed in "the plan" note for Loyd's of London appears to have required the beneficiary be a family member if any were existing. This is why the note is important: a policy could be created with Anna as beneficiary, then if Anna disappeared, the policy could be changed to Brody as beneficary. This is a possible motive for Anna's disappearance - if the Georges were involved.

Thank you, Dr. Doogie. I noticed something in one of the memos about changing beneficiaries, which made me think that it could be connected to Anna's disappearance. I also noticed how the Gs balked at having to provide info on GB, and at the background check that Lloyds wanted to do on GB.

Were any applications ever found that had GB's info on them? I know that the Gs withdrew the Lloyds application, but I wonder if they had ever started to fill out applications for other policies, withdrew them when they realized that backgrounds would be checked and then filed them away. It would be interesting to see if a SSN was ever listed for GB.

Dr. Doogie
05-17-2012, 07:48 PM
No, there were no actual applications in the BFH. The two Georges went out of their way to not provide any specific info about Brody - they even sent a photo of Brody to an insurance company with the instructions to only pay benefits to the man in the photo. This was likely to avoid Brody having to show an ID to the company.

marie-chantal
05-18-2012, 02:47 PM
No, there were no actual applications in the BFH. The two Georges went out of their way to not provide any specific info about Brody - they even sent a photo of Brody to an insurance company with the instructions to only pay benefits to the man in the photo. This was likely to avoid Brody having to show an ID to the company.

It's really laughable that an educated man like GW would think that he could just submit a photo to an insurance company in lieu of concrete identifying info and think that it would suffice.

I know that life was much different in the early 70s than it is now; however, even back then, I would think that insurance companies would need SSNs or other information for the beneficiaries.

It also makes me even more convinced that GB was not as educated and sophisticated as he wanted everyone to believe.

SideKick
11-08-2012, 02:59 PM
JR

The medical slip found in the Box from Hell :( with JR's name on it keeps haunting me. I can't help but think that we should try to track this man down and ask him if he was indeed at the clinic that day. (ok, I just watched a detective youtube flick) but every time a person's name comes up from the past they contact that person and often receive info from that person. I can't locate the image either, does someone happen to have it? Why does this keep coming at me? Is it because I find it odd it would be in the box. Water's could have put it in as a red herring but I feel we still need to know more about R. As I've mentioned in the past... what if! what if this was a hint to where Anna went?

Thanks for hearing me out...

SK

smile22
11-08-2012, 05:02 PM
sk i totally agree with you i think someone should find him and contact him asap assuming he is still alive and well.

Cubby
11-08-2012, 05:26 PM
With all due respect, we can not post full names of living people who have not been named in MSM. I asked the mods to change the full name to initials.

What we have done in the past to stay within TOS, is to use initials in the threads, and any sleuths wanting the full name to do research can request that info via pm.

Also, I would not suggest contacting strangers. Research is fine, if anything comes of it, it should be forwarded to the authorities and let them handle how to make contact if the authorities deem it necessary.

thank you everyone! :blowkiss:

Annasmom
11-08-2012, 08:55 PM
JR

The medical slip found in the Box from Hell :( with JR's name on it keeps haunting me. I can't help but think that we should try to track this man down and ask him if he was indeed at the clinic that day. (ok, I just watched a detective youtube flick) but every time a person's name comes up from the past they contact that person and often receive info from that person. I can't locate the image either, does someone happen to have it? Why does this keep coming at me? Is it because I find it odd it would be in the box. Water's could have put it in as a red herring but I feel we still need to know more about R. As I've mentioned in the past... what if! what if this was a hint to where Anna went?

Thanks for hearing me out...

SK

One problem would be that there are probably a hundred people in the San Francisco telephone book with that name. We have no idea if this person is still alive or lives in the area, whether he has a telephone, used his real name, etc.

OzzieMum
11-11-2012, 05:51 AM
With all due respect, we can not post full names of living people who have not been named in MSM. I asked the mods to change the full name to initials.

What we have done in the past to stay within TOS, is to use initials in the threads, and any sleuths wanting the full name to do research can request that info via pm.

Also, I would not suggest contacting strangers. Research is fine, if anything comes of it, it should be forwarded to the authorities and let them handle how to make contact if the authorities deem it necessary.

thank you everyone! :blowkiss:

Hi Cubby,

Can you pm me the full name. Thanks

Cubby
11-11-2012, 02:58 PM
Hi Cubby,

Can you pm me the full name. Thanks



I don't remember the first name. Please send SideKick a pm, she has the info with the full name.

hth!

OzzieMum
11-17-2012, 12:04 AM
JR

The medical slip found in the Box from Hell :( with JR's name on it keeps haunting me. I can't help but think that we should try to track this man down and ask him if he was indeed at the clinic that day. (ok, I just watched a detective youtube flick) but every time a person's name comes up from the past they contact that person and often receive info from that person. I can't locate the image either, does someone happen to have it? Why does this keep coming at me? Is it because I find it odd it would be in the box. Water's could have put it in as a red herring but I feel we still need to know more about R. As I've mentioned in the past... what if! what if this was a hint to where Anna went?

Thanks for hearing me out...

SK

Hi SK,

Thanks for sending me the name. Trying to locate JR to talk to him would probably be futile as he was 51 in 1973 when the tests were done, which would (if he was still alive) make him 91 or 92. The tests he had done would indicate that GW thought he was anemic and the test results indicate he was probably correct, so he may not have been a well man even back then.

I have done some searching on Ancestry and there are several JR's in the area that could have been this JR.

I agree with you that this medical slip was left for a reason but what that reason is, is just another mystery surrounding the G's.

Odyssey
11-17-2012, 02:03 AM
JR

The medical slip found in the Box from Hell :( with JR's name on it keeps haunting me. I can't help but think that we should try to track this man down and ask him if he was indeed at the clinic that day. (ok, I just watched a detective youtube flick) but every time a person's name comes up from the past they contact that person and often receive info from that person. I can't locate the image either, does someone happen to have it? Why does this keep coming at me? Is it because I find it odd it would be in the box. Water's could have put it in as a red herring but I feel we still need to know more about R. As I've mentioned in the past... what if! what if this was a hint to where Anna went?

Thanks for hearing me out...

SK

Can you refresh my memory? I don't necessarily need the full name, but the initials are not ringing a bell at the moment. Was JR a patient at the clinic, or a doctor that treated GB?

OzzieMum
11-17-2012, 03:19 AM
Can you refresh my memory? I don't necessarily need the full name, but the initials are not ringing a bell at the moment. Was JR a patient at the clinic, or a doctor that treated GB?

Hi Odyssey,

JR was a patient. I found the medical slip earlier but now I am having trouble finding it again. Probably tired. Will look again in the morning and post the link.

OzzieMum
11-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Link to the Lab slip below.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=382&d=1193786814