PDA

View Full Version : South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying


Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5

stmarysmead
04-04-2010, 07:40 PM
respectfully bolded by me...

I agree, cuppy. I have my suspicions, too...that's why I find it hard to debate the charges. I don't know the facts. I usually trust D.A.'s, when they make an indictment.

I read somewhere on a blog, in a comment, that this case went to a grand jury. Does anyone know if it did? That would give me more confidence in the charges. My knowledge of the american justice system is in it's infancy...;)

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/03/29/grand-jury-indicts-9-students-connection-phoebe-prince-bullying-

Yes, a Grand Jury heard the evidence.

cuppy199
04-04-2010, 07:41 PM
So what would be the solution? Punish everyone who caused pain to the individual? It appears to me that people get upset more at suicide than a murder and the idea is to punish everyone in sight.

The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

stmarysmead
04-04-2010, 07:44 PM
http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

I have a bit more to say here.

stmarysmead
04-04-2010, 07:51 PM
The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

Excellent post! Thank you!

Why do we need to blame the victim...find fault with her...demean her in death as her tormentors did? This encourages similar behavior. It puts other kids at risk.

Essentially some are requiring children to be able to endure daily attacks...because THEY could...or because "nobody" should be punished. The onus is then shifted from criticizing the bullying...to criticizing any victim who cannot bear it!

jjenny
04-04-2010, 07:53 PM
The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

I am all for problem not being ignored and schools doing all they can to protect the students.
But what did the students do in this case that was so out of the extra-ordinary?
Charges such as disturbing a school assembly? Really? What is that all about?
DA talked about assaultive verbal behavior-what is that? Name calling over teenage dating relationships?
I guess I will have to wait and see on what will be presented at trial.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 07:53 PM
It is one thing to be (for the lack of a better definition) picked on in school. It's another when it becomes physical/emotional/abuse. This is what I believe the point is. A line was crossed to the point of believing worthless. To be hated so much. Living a daily life of daily and relentless ugliness.

If this had occured in a home or at a workplace, many discussions would be so very, very different. The victim of such could have filed a complaint with LE or place of employment. Get a restraining order against the individual(s) responsible for such. But, this was a 15 year old young lady that endured this 7 days a week in a public school. Her parents contacted the school, spoke to so called "officials" and told them about this problem that became severe in the 3 months this young lady attended this school. What were their options? I promise you, they did what they could. No one in this town or school administration took the steps that should have been followed up on. Not one. Now, if this had been an adult who was part of this school system, it would have been a completely different story.

As far as actually suggesting that the fact Ms Prince was from another country and was incapable of dealing with fellow classmates here in the US...I find that insulting to the max. That was one of the most ignorant statements I have read in a very long time. Good Lord....

imvho
I moved every 6 months or so, as a child. A new school every time. From Quebec to Alberta, Canada. And many, many places in between. The culture in Quebec and Alberta are very different...Quebecker's and Albertans, let's say...disliked each other, this was in the Rene Levesque, referendum days...and I am a very sensitive person...

I wasn't bullied but I was looked at like I was alien. HOW could I be english and from Quebec?, they asked. And you're NICE they'd say...lol...and then I moved to Ontario...and found out what they thought of Albertans! ;)

Anyways...I don't know how it was for Phoebe. All I know is my gut tells me it was horrific. We'll see.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Another example.

Let's say in a certain family, there is a precious heirloom, a family ring. Worn during her life by the Grandmother, passed to the Mother, and in turn gifted it to the teenage daughter.

Now suppose the teenage daughter has a habit of banging the ring on any surface she can find...on the granite countertop in the morning, on the steel of the schoolbus as she rides to school, on the wooden desktop all day long, on the tile floor as she studies stretched out at home. Bang! Bang! Bang! Over and over and over and over! Day after day!

After three months the stones fall out. The heirloom ring is destroyed.

I suppose some might say the daughter bears no responsibility. Some might opine the ring was poorly made.

I guess I'd see it differently.

perfect...imo :)

Paladine
04-04-2010, 08:02 PM
http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/03/29/grand-jury-indicts-9-students-connection-phoebe-prince-bullying-

Yes, a Grand Jury heard the evidence.

So...a grand jury heard it, a grand jury indicted. Good enough for me, for now. Thanks, Mary.

jjenny
04-04-2010, 08:03 PM
So...a grand jury heard it, a grand jury indicted. Good enough for me, for now. Thanks, Mary.

Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 08:06 PM
Thanks for all the info Palladine

This is such a tragedy...I am glad they are going after these bullies but what about the adults here..the teachers, the principal etc?? I think they should be prosecuted also

yw...and I think they should, too. I think it's a shame they aren't. I wonder how much the power of the teachers union has on the choice. I take some solace in knowing a civil suit will be brought. I hope they don't settle. Even having to testify and admit to their wrongs would be better than nothing, I guess.

OrdinaryLife
04-04-2010, 08:10 PM
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of ignorance".

Robert Quillen

stmarysmead
04-04-2010, 08:11 PM
I am all for problem not being ignored and schools doing all they can to protect the students.
But what did the students do in this case that was so out of the extra-ordinary?
Charges such as disturbing a school assembly? Really? What is that all about?
DA talked about assaultive verbal behavior-what is that? Name calling over teenage dating relationships?
I guess I will have to wait and see on what will be presented at trial.

Here is what we know so far. A grand jury was presented with whatever evidence the District Attorney possessed. They reviewed it. THEY handed down indictments on very serious charges to all these students. Some were charged as adults...but even the juveniles were charged in a manner that meant they could face adult punishment.

They included the statutory rape charges. If you wish to believe this is just about a little name calling, I'd ask you to consider why the entire grand jury would agree with the District Attorney to charge these Bullies and charge them to the maximum available.



Here is the law pertaining to disturbing a school assembly.

"Chapter 272: Section 40. Disturbance of schools or assemblies
Section 40. Whoever wilfully interrupts or disturbs a school or other assembly of people met for a lawful purpose shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than one month or by a fine of not more than fifty dollars; provided, however, that whoever, within one year after being twice convicted of a violation of this section, again violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for one month, and the sentence imposing such imprisonment shall not be suspended."

It pertains to disrupting Phoebe's education....the "assembly" of students every day lawfully for the purpose of receiving a degree. By tormenting Phoebe on a daily basis...they disrupted her lawful presence among a group ASSEMBLED for education purposes.

This is not the use of the word"assembly" as in a school program.

These charges are the most severe response from the ONLY People that heard the entirety of the evidence. Do you believe that this is simply about name-calling? Or the weakness of Phoebe?

Really?

Paladine
04-04-2010, 08:11 PM
Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.


Well, jjenny...I have no problem with the indictment, at this time. We'll see...

jjenny
04-04-2010, 08:15 PM
Here is what we know so far. A grand jury was presented with whatever evidence the District Attorney possessed. They reviewed it. THEY handed down indictments on very serious charges to all these students. Some were charged as adults...but even the juveniles were charged in a manner that meant they could face adult punishment.

They included the statutory rape charges. If you wish to believe this is just about a little name calling, I'd ask you to consider why the entire grand jury would agree with the District Attorney to charge these Bullies and charge them to the maximum available.



Here is the law pertaining to disturbing a school assembly.

"Chapter 272: Section 40. Disturbance of schools or assemblies
Section 40. Whoever wilfully interrupts or disturbs a school or other assembly of people met for a lawful purpose shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than one month or by a fine of not more than fifty dollars; provided, however, that whoever, within one year after being twice convicted of a violation of this section, again violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for one month, and the sentence imposing such imprisonment shall not be suspended."

It pertains to disrupting Phoebe's education....the "assembly" of students every day lawfully for the purpose of receiving a degree. By tormenting Phoebe on a daily basis...they disrupted her lawful presence among a group ASSEMBLED for education purposes.

This is not the use of the word"assembly" as in a school program.

These charges are the most severe response from the ONLY People that heard the entirety of the evidence. Do you believe that this is simply about name-calling? Or the weakness of Phoebe?

Really?

If that is a crime, then why all the unruly students that I presume are pretty much in every school (certainly there were a few in mine) aren't being charged daily?

cuppy199
04-04-2010, 08:21 PM
Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

I have heard that saying which in fact IMO is a load. I have been on several grand juries and the only cases that brought charges are the ones that had the evidence to back it up.I highly doubt a grand jury would bring charges against theses teens for saying just hurtful things. There is alot more to this story then we even know IMO.

jjenny
04-04-2010, 08:23 PM
I have heard that saying which in fact IMO is a load. I have been on several grand juries and the only cases that brought charges are the ones that had the evidence to back it up.I highly doubt a grand jury would bring charges against theses teens for saying just hurtful things. There is alot more to this story then we even know IMO.

Isn't it only from the prosecution's point of view, since defense isn't there and doesn't present evidence.

stmarysmead
04-04-2010, 08:35 PM
If that is a crime, then why all the unruly students that I presume are pretty much in every school (certainly there were a few in mine) aren't being charged daily?

Because not all unruly students conduct their harassment in such a virulent manner that real harm or a death results.

I understand that analogies confuse you...but surely you understand that the circumstances of an individual case determine the charges.

Are you saying that UNLESS every bully on earth is charged...then NO bully should ever face legal consequences?

Please tell us more about that.

cuppy199
04-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Isn't it only from the prosecution's point of view, since defense isn't there and doesn't present evidence.

The grand jury has broad investigative authority due its ability to compel testimony, to order the production of documents and its power to indict.The grand jury works with the prosecution but is not controlled by that office.Authorization must be sought from the grand jury upon impanelment for the issuance of subpoenas in the grand jury’s name.I have worked on a case that we found even more evidence then the prosecution had because we had subpoened people to testify under oath. I can say I learned alot being on these grand juries and we didnt indict on all the cases that were brought before us.

JBean
04-04-2010, 08:55 PM
Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.
I still have never seen a ham sandwich indicted. So either that is not true or no one has actually tested it to find out if their is truth to it. So, not sure what strength we can put into that old argument.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 09:01 PM
You and I need not resolve our debate. Others will read your viewpoints and mine and make their own decisions. In the interim, I will continue to applaud the District Attorney for holding these sadistic bullies responsible for their actions.

God bless this child who suffered so much. You'll read no rebuke or criticism of her in my posts ever.

I'm with you on that. In mine, neither.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 09:04 PM
The grand jury has broad investigative authority due its ability to compel testimony, to order the production of documents and its power to indict.The grand jury works with the prosecution but is not controlled by that office.Authorization must be sought from the grand jury upon impanelment for the issuance of subpoenas in the grand jury’s name.I have worked on a case that we found even more evidence then the prosecution had because we had subpoened people to testify under oath. I can say I learned alot being on these grand juries and we didnt indict on all the cases that were brought before us.

What an informative post. Thanks, cuppy... :blowkiss:

JBean
04-04-2010, 09:06 PM
I am just glad there is uproar and general outrage about the behavior of these young people. because if we become so desensitized to this criminal behavior it will be a sad day for future generations. We cannot explain it away or make excuses. It needs to be dealt with and at this level it has to include the law, because it has gone too far.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 09:11 PM
"Charges not enough for some Hadley parents"
"The investigation revealed relentless activity toward Phoebe designed to humiliate her and make it impossible for her to remain at school," said the district attorney.

Three juveniles have also been charged with delinquency complaints - including one girl who's accused of assault and battery on a 17-year-old South Hadley student who spoke out against the bullying.
The alleged victim's father says he's pleased with the charges because he believes the school did not do enough to protect his daughter and other students.
Mitch Brouillard said, "They went to school everyday knowing that some of these bullies are still in school, some of the perpetrators are still there."

The DA confirmed at least three of the students charged *are* still in school.
http://www.necn.com/pages/landing?Charges-not-enough-for-some-South-Hadley=1&blockID=206616&feedID=

Paladine
04-04-2010, 09:34 PM
I am just glad there is uproar and general outrage about the behavior of these young people. because if we become so desensitized to this criminal behavior it will be a sad day for future generations. We cannot explain it away or make excuses. It needs to be dealt with and at this level it has to include the law, because it has gone too far.

Yes, JBean. Such wise words.

When I hear people say, "oh...that's just school"..."that's just kids", I think, NO! It's not my kids. My kids are raised to be caring, thoughtful people. My kids have never bullied. I have never received one complaint. Although...they have been on the receiving end of it, as most sensitive non-combative kids are, imo. That's why they are picked on, imo. They don't pick on the tough guy. And it makes me angry. I did my job as a parent. I raised thoughtful, sensitive, children. As many do. I want them to be safe physically and emotionally, at school. If they can't keep them safe, close the school.

I want more parents to step up. I want "bullying" not to be the norm. I want it to be called assault and harassment. And I want schools required to report it to police. I want our kids to feel as important as adults. To have a right to be safe, to feel safe.

Okay...rant over. ;) sorry 'bout that...it's all your fault, JBean...you inspired me. ;)

Paladine
04-04-2010, 09:48 PM
IMO, a thought...if anyone has any doubt about how devastating emotional abuse can be, which is how I view this harassment, they should ask a battered woman...I've worked with some in a professional capacity, and a long time ago, I was one. We women know how much words can hurt. How deep being told you're worthless, and less than worthless, can wound...imagine that in a child who has not developed a true sense of self, yet. You believe it.

raeann
04-04-2010, 09:53 PM
Isn't it only from the prosecution's point of view, since defense isn't there and doesn't present evidence.

Grand juries are made up of intelligent, hard working, honest citizens with absolutely NO MOTIVATION to proceed with charges that are not supported by actual evidence that is presented to them. The prosecutor does not just stand up and say "I WANT this person to be charged"!!! They present evidence and witness statements, and other FACTS to be evaluated by those on the jury.

FWIW....no grand jury in the entire history of the USA has EVER indicted a ham sandwich or any other inanimate object.


jmoo

Muffet
04-04-2010, 10:04 PM
Thanks BeenaBobba. There are quite a few posts there following the one you mention. Most others seem to be similar to the views here. I'm not sure what the relative thinks will be revealed about Phoebe that will change anyone's opinion about her being brutalized and bullied to her death (and possibly bullied after her death). JMO.

Have any of the accused shown one ounce of remorse about the situation? (If they have, I haven't read about it.) JMO.

[my bold]
I haven't seen it either. If I were one of those girls or people who stood by, I'd be on my knees apologizing. I'm sure most of us here would.

But yeah, all I've seen is whining and blaming of the victim for being "weak." :no:

It just further proves that these kids, their parents, the school admin, and too many other people in this country still don't get it. ...Or they or their kids were bullies or enablers, and they don't want to face or be held accountable for their own guilt...

Muffet
04-04-2010, 10:19 PM
FWIW....someone posted that at the time SM was 18 and Phoebe was just 14, I do not have the birth dates memorized, but I am sure others have these at hand. Also, NO ONE here knows that the evidence police have does not point to there being NON-Consensual attacks on this girl. LE has that evidence. They also have security tapes that supposedly show the physical assaults of punching, tripping, and slamming of her head into lockers. These charges were not brought because of name calling! They were brought due to threats of violence that were sent by text and e-mail. THAT is prosecutable even if no one dies as a result.

jmoo

I posted her birthdate, after hearing that she was 14 when the sex took place. She turned 15 in November.

I'm not sure about the one boy, but Sean is 17, and I think he's a senior.

I strongly support Romeo and Juliet laws, but even they usually only allow a 3 year age difference. In this case, a 16 or 17 year old senior, captain of the football team, who has a reputation for being a "player" had sex with a 14 year old freshman, new to the school ad country.

I see an unacceptable power play there, especially considering his treatment of her afterward.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:19 PM
A student is quoted in this piece. I won't post the name. But I wonder if she might be a friend of the bullies. I've seen the name before, can't recall where...anybody know?
http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/bullying-like-this-can-t-be-ignored-1.2210764

ETA: please ignore this post...I misread...:)

BeenaBobba
04-04-2010, 10:19 PM
I haven't seen it either. If I were one of those girls or people who stood by, I'd be on my knees apologizing. I'm sure most of us here would.

But yeah, all I've seen is whining and blaming of the victim for being "weak." :no:


We've all heard rumors that some of the accused wrote nasty comments on Phoebe's memorial page, but that has yet to be confirmed as of right now. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As I've mentioned, I've seen a Facebook comment from Austin Renaud's sister saying he LAUGHED when he found out she'd taken her own life!

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:31 PM
In addition, researchers at the Yale School of Medicine, in a new review of studies from 13 countries, found signs of an apparent connection between bullying, being bullied and suicide.

"The incidence of bullying is getting more and more frequent and takes lots of forms," said Herbert Nieberg, associate professor of criminal justice at Mitchell College in Connecticut and a psychologist who specializes in adolescents.

And when the bullying moves to the Internet, the trauma to the victim is "astronomically" escalated, according to Nieberg.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cyber-bullying-factor-suicide-massachusetts-teen-irish-immigrant/story?id=9660938&page=2

jjenny
04-04-2010, 10:32 PM
A student is quoted in this piece. I won't post the name. But I wonder if she might be a friend of the bullies. I've seen the name before, can't recall where...anybody know?
http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/bullying-like-this-can-t-be-ignored-1.2210764

I don't see any names in the article.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:34 PM
We've all heard rumors that some of the accused wrote nasty comments on Phoebe's memorial page, but that has yet to be confirmed as of right now. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As I've mentioned, I've seen a Facebook comment from Austin Renaud's sister saying he LAUGHED when he found out she'd taken her own life!

True. Not confirmed. But I've got a link with some interesting gossip about it if anyone cares to look...though, you've likely seen it, BeenaBobba...thought I'd post it for others...
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/phoebe-prince-facebook-bullying-behind-teens-suicide-2563997.html

Muffet
04-04-2010, 10:36 PM
We've all heard rumors that some of the accused wrote nasty comments on Phoebe's memorial page, but that has yet to be confirmed as of right now. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As I've mentioned, I've seen a Facebook comment from Austin Renaud's sister saying he LAUGHED when he found out she'd taken her own life!

:no: Nor would I. And if it's true that one or more of the girls wrote "mission accomplished," they'll be cooked. Well done. :whistle:

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:39 PM
I don't see any names in the article.

3rd paragraph from the bottom. E.B....

ETA: mystery solved ;) please ignore post...

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:42 PM
3rd paragraph from the bottom. E.B....

Never mind...lol...I know where I saw it. It's the Slate reporter! I misread...sorry, folks...lol...it's there, though but not a student, the one who interviewed them. I recalled the name because I have her as a friend on twitter and re-tweeted that librarians tweet to her. Lol...let's blame age. ;)

Muffet
04-04-2010, 10:48 PM
I posted her birthdate, after hearing that she was 14 when the sex took place. She turned 15 in November.

I'm not sure about the one boy, but Sean is 17, and I think he's a senior.

I strongly support Romeo and Juliet laws, but even they usually only allow a 3 year age difference. In this case, a 16 or 17 year old senior, captain of the football team, who has a reputation for being a "player" had sex with a 14 year old freshman, new to the school ad country.

I see an unacceptable power play there, especially considering his treatment of her afterward.

Quoting myself to answer my own questions. :o

Sean is in fact a senior, and the other boy is 18.

The ages are on one of the links Paladine posted:
Sean Mulveyhill, 17;
Kayla Narey, 17;
Austin Renaud, 18;
Ashley Longe, 16;
Flannery Mullins, 16;
Sharon Chanon Velazquez, 16.

http://scarlett-journey.net/2010/03/30/phoebe-prince-death/comment-page-1/#comments

Paladine
04-04-2010, 10:59 PM
I wonder about this comment...any way to see if that school has a higher suicide rate?

"djkrystal (not verified)
at 12:41 on January 28th, 2010

i disagree with you. typically in this town (south hadley ma) they tend to cover things up. ."
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/phoebe-prince-facebook-bullying-behind-teens-suicide-2563997.html?page=1

BeenaBobba
04-04-2010, 11:16 PM
I've posted my thoughts at some length here.

http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

I've read your latest blog entry. I'd seen some comments from one of the accused's alleged relatives on another blog, and what I saw was pretty bad, but I hadn't known about his most recent gem until now. I am in utter shock that he referred to Phoebe as a "chippy [who] flew the coop." That is so beyond disrespectful that I am at a near loss for words. I can see how a family member might dispute the charges, but to blatantly insult a fifteen-year-old child who's no longer here to defend herself? Absolutely beyond the pale!

Not only that, but look at how Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chippy) defines chippy:

Main Entry: chip·pie
Variant(s): also chip·py \ˈchi-pē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural chippies
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1886
: tramp, prostitute

What a class act, huh? If I were a defense attorney representing his relative, I would advise him -- and quite severely, too! -- to shut his trap. He's probably trying to defend his relative, but a lot of people will look at his comments and think, "Wow, I can see where the bullying behavior comes from! Look at her despicable family!" I'm sure that's not the image he wants to project, so he should just quit while he's ahead.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 11:19 PM
One more comment...again, taken with a grain of salt. Texts will be a big part of this case....
"missing you (not verified)
at 13:43 on March 30th, 2010

im from dublin ireland aswell i totally agree with the person who left the comment above me phoebe was one of my best friends she didnt go to ameri :(
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/phoebe-prince-facebook-bullying-behind-teens-suicide-2563997.html?page=5

Paladine
04-04-2010, 11:23 PM
I've read your latest blog entry. I'd seen some comments from one of the accused's alleged relatives on another blog, and what I saw was pretty bad, but I hadn't known about his most recent gem until now. I am in utter shock that he referred to Phoebe as a "chippy [who] flew the coop." That is so beyond disrespectful that I am at a near loss for words. I can see how a family member might dispute the charges, but to blatantly insult a fifteen-year-old child who's no longer here to defend herself? Absolutely beyond the pale!

Not only that, but look at how Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chippy) defines chippy:



What a class act, huh? If I were a defense attorney representing his relative, I would advise him -- and quite severely, too! -- to shut his trap. He's probably trying to defend his relative, but a lot of people will look at his comments and think, "Wow, I can see where the bullying behavior comes from! Look at her despicable family!" I'm sure that's not the image he wants to project, so he should just quit while he's ahead.
Disgusting. Good research, Benna...wow. To me, 'they' seem intent of trashing her character. And sexually abusive terms for a 15 year old child. There should be a law.

jjenny
04-04-2010, 11:26 PM
One more comment...again, taken with a grain of salt. Texts will be a big part of this case....

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/phoebe-prince-facebook-bullying-behind-teens-suicide-2563997.html?page=5

Well the post sounds credible. I don't think her father moved to US (yet?) so the girl was here with her mother and some siblings? While the father stayed behind? And it sounds like she were doing well in Ireland.

Paladine
04-04-2010, 11:36 PM
"Teens ask for help to deal with bullies"

I get the idea that most of our parents and teachers fall in the 40 or 50s and they come from an era where you were kind of told to fight it out and deal with it yourself," Burke said. "It might take until all of us are in administrative roles to know that it doesn't always work out that way and sometimes you need a little bit of help."
"They also said teachers can have a hard time identifying bullies, some of whom can hide behind good grades and participation on sport teams.
"The girls who are really smart and popular can get away with anything," Davidson said. "The teacher thinks they are good students, or they're good kids, they wouldn't do this, or they probably didn't mean it that way, or you took it in the wrong way."http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/04/05/teens-ask-help-deal-bullies

Paladine
04-04-2010, 11:48 PM
Well the post sounds credible. I don't think her father moved to US (yet?) so the girl was here with her mother and some siblings? While the father stayed behind? And it sounds like she were doing well in Ireland.

No, he hadn't. The Cullen piece mentions something to the effect of Phoebes Dad recieving her in Ireland in a box...and she was buried in the black dress she was to wear to the dance. That was, in essence, the last line...iirc...

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:11 AM
"There is uproar between the Northeastern District Attorney's office and South Hadley school authorities.

School superintendent, Gus Sayer, has said the staff at the school only became aware of the bullying one week before Phoebe's death.

Northeastern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel said this is a lie."
Not new...but I love the quote, so succinct.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Bully-writes-accomplished-on-Phoebe-Princes-Facebook-page-on-day-of-death-89764722.html

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:16 AM
A teenager from County Clare, Phoebe Prince, took her life on Thursday, January 14, following harassment and bullying by schoolmates. After her death, the bullies defaced the Facebook page that had been set up in her honor, posting malicious comments and images.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Tragic-suicide-of-bullied-Irish-girl-in-Boston-82506197.html

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:29 AM
I just a read teenager suggesting this movie...I think I'll be watching it with my Daughter. Thought I'd share...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_Girl_Out

Paladine
04-05-2010, 01:02 AM
Another bloggers reaction to the defacing of the fb page...he/she links it, needless to say, it's deleted, now, though. I find older posts interesting, having come so late to this tragedy, myself. I also find it fascinating to watch the reaction in real time...

"This wasn't just any case of high school girls behaving badly toward one another. Phoebe apparently faced an onslaught of bullying via texts, Facebook messages, and in person at the school. Even after her death, the ****ty little girls left disparaging messages on a Facebook page created in her memory. (See the memorial page here.)"
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://digg.com/users/Azuvic/h.png&imgrefurl=http://www.ubervu.com/conversations/www.truecrimereport.com/2010/01/phoebe_prince_15_commits_suici.php&usg=__e_RUItF_BwsX3NwsDWayJGxg4zU=&h=120&w=120&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&sig2=jAsVb6sojXV-PPGtaTm9kw&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=NBMwpW0oChFijM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dashley%2Blonge%2Bshhs%26um%3D1%26hl%3 Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-ca:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GFRE_en%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=oW65S9v3PIaglAff1OmXCg

Paladine
04-05-2010, 01:22 AM
A comment..."this is suicide season said:
ok soo i just heard about this story welll i heard about it a couple weeks ago but rele looked into it just a couple days ago and i am very sad yeaa ik everey1 is but rele "
Edited to remove AIM address/name...original at link...
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/02/phoebe_prince_suicide_2_studen.php

Paladine
04-05-2010, 01:35 AM
Bullies "thought Phoebe was an immigrant kid," O'Brien says, "that her parents weren't people who could fight the fight." He's calling for the resignation of school officials, including Sayer, the superintendent, who says he has no plans to leave.The town school board chairman, Edward Boiselle, says some people have unreasonable expectations of what schools can do to stop such tragedies. "We don't have a magic bullet."After Phoebe's death, Coloroso returned to the high school and talked with parents and students.
"I was told there was no visible sign these kids had faced consequences for what they'd done," she says.
"Students said, 'These kids (who bullied Phoebe) are still walking around the hallways.'"]
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-04-04-bullying_N.htm

Paladine
04-05-2010, 01:45 AM
"Despite controversy, no challengers for S. Hadley school committee chair"
South Hadley’s controversial school committee chairman is up for re-election today - but has no challengers even as anger over the bullying-related death of 15-year-old Phoebe Prince continues to grip the community.

“What in the world kind of message does that send if all these people are crying that they want new leadership?” asked parent Dawn Berard, a member of the town’s anti-bullying task force. “As a resident we’re kind of forced to write in someone’s name and hope they get elected.”http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100405despite_controversy_no_challengers_for_s_h adley_school_committee_chair/srvc=home&position=7

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:00 AM
Kevin Cullen: "Kids pay, adults get away"
Fifteen years ago, Rashna Singh sat down with Sayer after a teacher in Amherst had been verbally abusive to her son.
“Sayer disregarded our heartfelt concerns and defended the teacher and, more infuriatingly, actually went on to praise the teacher,’’ she said. “He was completely dismissive of our complaint. I see a similar response by him in this tragic case of the poor girl who killed herself.’’Some people in South Hadley were surprised Sayer was hired in 2004 in the first place. Two years earlier, Sayer had to get rid of Amherst Regional High School principal Stephen Myers, whom he had enthusiastically recruited from Denver, after Myers sexually harassed a freshman boy. Sayer said Myers had hid his fondness for boys until the freshman’s mother complained.
“As soon as I found that out, Myers was gone,’’ Sayer said.
But the mother of the boy who was invited into Myers’s hot tub was not satisfied with the way Sayer handled the case.
“Look,’’ Sayer said, “I do the best I can. Sometimes parents aren’t happy. I do the best I can.’’
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/04/04/kids_pay_adults_get_away/?page=2

This man is unbelievable to me. He keeps admitting he's incompetent, imo.

Mr. Sayer! Once again, your best was NOT good enough! IMO

Muffet
04-05-2010, 03:07 AM
:woohoo: I see we just got our bullying forum!

Thank you, Tricia, Adnoid, and our mod, Daisy7!

Boyz_Mum
04-05-2010, 09:32 AM
We've all heard rumors that some of the accused wrote nasty comments on Phoebe's memorial page, but that has yet to be confirmed as of right now. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As I've mentioned, I've seen a Facebook comment from Austin Renaud's sister saying he LAUGHED when he found out she'd taken her own life!

BBM. That comment is enough to make a person sick and their blood boiling, IMO. I don't even understand how the sister could post something about like this about her brother- I'd be sickened to be related to a person who could laugh about such a horrible incident and too embarrassed to facebook it. (JMO and I've never seen the comment, just saying how I feel about it.)

BeenaBobba and Paladine, thanks for keeping us updated.

Boyz_Mum
04-05-2010, 09:38 AM
I just a read teenager suggesting this movie...I think I'll be watching it with my Daughter. Thought I'd share...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_Girl_Out

I watched this on Lifetime (I haven't read the book it's based on). This is an excellent movie, IMO. (Keep your tissue handy if you watch it, I cried more than once.)

adnoid
04-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Suicide has an ethical dimension. Victims are driven by pain not choice.Choice implies that a suicidal person can reasonably look at alternatives and select among them. If they could rationally choose, it would not be suicide. Suicide happens when all other alternatives are exhausted when no other choices are seen.

I'm certainly no expert on suicide, but what I see is that people who commit suicide do so because they cannot find another way to stop the pain, as you say.

If a person is attacked with a pipe and sustains a broken arm, do we blame them for not having stronger bones because not everyone hit with a pipe gets a broken arm? If a person is stabbed with a knife and bleeds to death do we blame them for not having better blood clotting factors because not everyone that is knifed bleeds to death? Well, based on what I've read here, there are some that would blame the victim here because others that were the target of actions meant to hurt them did not react the way Phoebe did.

The intentional infliction of pain on another person - and that's what we're really talking about here, isn't it? - is wrong. Plain and simple, it is wrong to hurt someone who is not a threat to you. I'm not some sort of softy who believes in the sanctity of all human life - I have no problem with executing murderers and would not hesitate to hurt or kill some to defend myself or those I love. I was not bullied in school, I was on the football team and there may have been a couple of guys in my class I couldn't have pounded the daylights out of if I had wanted to, but I never wanted to. I wasn't brought up that way. Sure, I had fights, all kids do, but always one on one - never the kind of ganging up we see in this case.

Not only is the infliction of pain on another wrong, it's also illegal. Clearly the zygote sources for these demon spawn (I can't use the term "parent" as it really doesn't fit based on what I've seen) did not instill in them any sort of concept of right and wrong, so it falls to the law to deal with the results. They caused Phoebe to hurt. They had no right to do that. How she chose to stop the hurt is not the issue, that they hurt her is the issue. Period.

To take the position that certain wrong acts should not be punished because not ALL such acts are punished is an argument tactic I often see used by criminals and their supporters as a method of deflection from the actual wrongdoing that is at issue. I don't give a flying crap how many other bullies don't get punished, these bullies should be. They must be.

If it can be shown - and I think it will be shown - that the faculty, staff and administration of the school was aware of this going on and did nothing about it, they all need to go as well and be barred from ever being in a position of authority over children for the rest of their lives. They have shown they are no good at it. To say they don't want to expel a student who has done wrong is a total dereliction of duty - a duty they owe to the other students who follow the rules, treat each other with respect and come to school to learn, not to be assaulted. It sounds like these "adults" were actually intimidated by these bullies, and if that's what it was they should not be allowed in a position of authority. Get someone who can do the job. If I had pulled the crap we're hearing they pulled, not only would I have been expelled, what the school did would pale in comparison to what my parents would have done next.

We haven't heard from all of the bullies and their parents yet. If I hear some expression of sincere remorse and apology, then those that do it may have a future. But the ones we have heard from, I predict, will show up on this site again as they continue to hurt others in the years to come. If by 15 they have no concept of right and wrong I doubt they'll ever learn it.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. But one thing is for sure - I will NEVER disparage Phoebe by placing any blame on her. Period. NOBODY deserves the sort of continued gang assault she clearly endured. It was cowardly, it was low, and it must be punished severely.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 10:47 AM
Adnoid, if I could thank your post a thousand times, I would. Well done, Adnoid. Well done...

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 11:33 AM
Adnoid, if I could thank your post a thousand times, I would. Well done, Adnoid. Well done...

Bravo, Adnoid...I agree!

big4dropout
04-05-2010, 11:57 AM
I know that the conversation has moved away from this point, but I've been busy at work and instead have followed the thread via email, and I was just reading now and caught something I wanted to mention.

The "accomplished" tidbit is getting taken out of context. No one wrote "mission accomplished" on the wall of her memorial page (to my knowledge). In googling the suspects, someone came across one of the suspects MySpace pages, and her mood said "accomplished." For those who aren't familiar, MySpace has a drop-down box where you can select from a dozen or so "moods," and accomplished is one of the moods you can select. I saw it myself several days ago before I was so interested in the case, but I can't remember which girl it was and I haven't been able to find it again. So much comes up when you google now.

Just wanted to clarify that point so that we have correct facts. Even news articles are getting it wrong.

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 12:14 PM
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100405students_in_phoebe_prince_case_wont_appear _in_court_tomorrow/srvc=home&position=recent

None of the accused will appear in court tomorrow.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Thank you, adnoid. What a beautifully written post.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:21 PM
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100405students_in_phoebe_prince_case_wont_appear _in_court_tomorrow/srvc=home&position=recent

None of the accused will appear in court tomorrow.
They can hide for now but they can't hide forever...

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:23 PM
I know that the conversation has moved away from this point, but I've been busy at work and instead have followed the thread via email, and I was just reading now and caught something I wanted to mention.

The "accomplished" tidbit is getting taken out of context. No one wrote "mission accomplished" on the wall of her memorial page (to my knowledge). In googling the suspects, someone came across one of the suspects MySpace pages, and her mood said "accomplished." For those who aren't familiar, MySpace has a drop-down box where you can select from a dozen or so "moods," and accomplished is one of the moods you can select. I saw it myself several days ago before I was so interested in the case, but I can't remember which girl it was and I haven't been able to find it again. So much comes up when you google now.

Just wanted to clarify that point so that we have correct facts. Even news articles are getting it wrong.

True. Mood said accomplished. But word is others things WERE written, as well. Also rumor of some bragging done at the dance, 2 days after Phoebe died, at how police were deceived. We'll also have to wait for confirmation on that.

big4dropout
04-05-2010, 12:36 PM
Yes, mean things were definitely said on the facebook wall. I almost wish I could have seen them before they were taken down, but I know it would just make me even more angry.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Must read link...Darby O'Brien and Kevin Cullen are on my hero list, for sure...may God bless them both...

"Darby O'Brien, the local hero who exposed Phoebe Prince bullies"

"In the immediate aftermath of Phoebe Prince's death from bullying little changed at South Hadley High.

Just two days after, the annual cotillion dance went ahead with lavish amounts of money spent on dresses, chauffeur driven cars and expensive gifts for girlfriends.

Some of the bullies who had driven Phoebe to suicide attended the cotillion without any reprimand.

Those same kids who had caused Phoebe's death continued to walk the corridors in the schools and the principal and the school superintendent seemed ready to brush the whole affair under the carpet.

Then Darby O'Brien stepped in
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/darby-obrien-the-local-hero-who-exposed-phoebe-prince-bullies-89897482.html

adnoid
04-05-2010, 12:52 PM
Must read link...Darby O'Brien and Kevin Cullen are on my hero list, for sure...may God bless them both...

"Darby O'Brien, the local hero who exposed Phoebe Prince bullies"


http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/darby-obrien-the-local-hero-who-exposed-phoebe-prince-bullies-89897482.html

Looks like a totally cool guy...

http://www.darbyobrien.com/main/darby.htm

Paladine
04-05-2010, 12:59 PM
Another photo of sweet Phoebe http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_v5FFnXibqBc/S7nLmuPGjPI/AAAAAAAAAYc/i-jMX08Ofec/s1600/phoebe1.jpg

Muffet
04-05-2010, 01:32 PM
What a sweet face. Her poor family. Sweet heavens, the heart breaks. :(

Here are the Spoiled Soulless Mean Girls who obviously couldn't stand the competition.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2llhpia.jpg

Clockwise from top left, Sharon Chanon Velazquez, Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey, Ashley Longe and Austin Renaud.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 01:36 PM
People Stand For Phoebe! The outrage is justified, imo...
"In the meantime, critics have started calling for resignations.

"This is a tragic incident ... and when bad things happen people will say things like that. I'm not surprised but I take my cues from the school committee and they've given me full support," said Sayer. Principal Smith did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

The attention this has all garnered has prompted calls and -mails to teachers, staff and administrators from across the country.

"[The messages say] why did we allow this to happen, some more derogatory and acoustic than others," says South Hadley Police Chief David LaBrie.
I wonder WHO is on the school committee and what ties THEY have to the bullies and/or school officials...
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12244071

Muffet
04-05-2010, 01:56 PM
Must read link...Darby O'Brien and Kevin Cullen are on my hero list, for sure...may God bless them both...

"Darby O'Brien, the local hero who exposed Phoebe Prince bullies"


http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/darby-obrien-the-local-hero-who-exposed-phoebe-prince-bullies-89897482.html

Thank you, Paladine. That really is a great read, and it explains a lot. I've read locals' comments about how this town is a world unto itself, where there is no justice as untouchable families push their weight around to get their way and terrible things are swept under the rug.

Bravo to Darby O'Brien, and to Kevin Cullen and all the other reporters who are exposing them to the light of the real world.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 02:39 PM
Thank you, Paladine. That really is a great read, and it explains a lot. I've read locals' comments about how this town is a world unto itself, where there is no justice as untouchable families push their weight around to get their way and terrible things are swept under the rug.

Bravo to Darby O'Brien, and to Kevin Cullen and all the other reporters who are exposing them to the light of the real world.

Yw. I just found this, as well.
"At South Hadley High I realized right away that I was not quite in sync. I have never owned a North Face sweater, a designer purse, and the one time I tried to wear acrylic nails I managed to hurt myself multiple times, so I took them off after about three days. I didn’t know what cotillion was, I got my first pair of Ugg-like boots a month earlier at Old Navy, I have never worn sweatpants to school and, although I have nothing but respect for athletes, my forays into sports have proven about as successful as the acrylic nails were. I had also never before said the Pledge of Allegiance in school, or taken a school bus (I soon learned the important lesson of making sure I got to the bus right after school ended, as on my first day I managed to miss my bus after I got lost trying to make my way to the front door).
It seems to me that SHHS is a place where anyone can thrive with the right amount of self motivation, focus on learning, and ability to overcome scrutiny. For, as students at South Hadley High School, we are lucky enough to not only be gifted with extremely invested and capable teachers, but also rigorous classes and interested and talented peers.
I found this piece disturbing, posted March 1st, 2010, praising the school after a new student commits suicide...at minimum, extremely insensitive...

I'm finding comments on blogs and articles blaming Phoebe's "weakness", as well. It makes me angry beyond belief...and fuels my posting.
http://southhadleystudentpress.com/?p=128

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 03:01 PM
Yet, it doesn't seem all these kids are from affluent "privileged" families. Narey deceased Father was a plumber. Mulveyhill's home is just an average family home.

Any info on the others.

Maybe their status was from their athletic abilities and the cache it brought to the schools.

Three new posts today for anyone interested...
http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:01 PM
And check this out. This local newsletter started a new section in March...called "Teen Times". And they focus on the difficulties of a new school, how some are well equipt..and some...well, you know...just not as stable...it is infuriating. It looks like propaganda to me. Trying to brain wash the public into believing any balanced kid could make it...there must have been something wrong with Phoebe! Page 11 of this PDF...
http://www.townreminderonline.com/030510reminder.pdf

ETA: There is also a pic of SHHS library on this link, page 13, taken Feb 27th, 2010. It looks open and airy from this view...thinking of how a teacher could/couldnot have seen Phoebe being bullied in there. I can't seem to copy it, if anyone has better skills, and can, please do...\

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 03:09 PM
Yw. I just found this, as well.


I found this piece disturbing, posted March 1st, 2010, praising the school after a new student commits suicide...at minimum, extremely insensitive...

I'm finding comments on blogs and articles blaming Phoebe's "weakness", as well. It makes me angry beyond belief...and fuels my posting.
http://southhadleystudentpress.com/?p=128

Paladine, this is where patience needs to be. The writer is a student at SHHS. She is writing from her perspective at this moment. As frustrating as it can be, especially as adults from the outside of it all, some "slack" has to be given. The writer of this piece is not the person to be concerned about. It is those who surround this bright mind....

imvho

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Paladine, this is where patience needs to be. The writer is a student at SHHS. She is writing from her perspective at this moment. As frustrating as it can be, especially as adults from the outside of it all, some "slack" has to be given. The writer of this piece is not the person to be concerned about. It is those who surround this bright mind....

imvho

I've written for my student paper...back in the day. ;) And the stories always had to be approved by faculty. The writer is entitled to her opinion, but I think it was bad timing...or propaganda. I've found no mention of bullying in these stories...only the "adjustment issues"...

David LaBrie, the police chief in South Hadley said: "A teenage girl appears to have taken her own life ... a myriad of issues could have been involved." Gus Sayer, the superintendent for South Hadley High, revealed Phoebe had been having counselling for "adjustment issues" but he said he could not speculate on why she did what she did.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/bullied-to-death-2098808.html

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 03:35 PM
The picture of the library is indeed quite interesting. Great find...you are doing a superb job!

Phoebe was allegedly surrounded at her seat...angry profanities directed at just her...one child sitting alone...surrounded. How hard could it be for an attentive teacher in that room to pick up on what was happening?

abbra
04-05-2010, 03:39 PM
The Death of Phoebe Price cannot be swept under the rug.

I live in a community where crimes like this are convieniently forgotten about.
The bullying going on in our local private and public schools is ignored by the school administration. My own niece's hair was set on fire by another high school student who thought it was funny. The school banned him from Prom but the kid showed up at Prom anyway. Come to find out this kid was from a wealthy family who monetarily supported the school admins and board. The school let his actions slide and the incident disappeared from school records.
All school age children need a welcoming and safe environment to concentrate on their academic studies. They should never have to be preoccupied with threats, verbal or physical from fellow students and even school employees.
No child or teen should ever be pushed to such extremes such as suicide, drug use, or alcoholism to deal with an intolerable environment in his or her school.
No matter how many laws on Bullying in schools and in public, are passed in states, Unless they are ENFORCED, the laws will be worthless.
Just as you have the Superintendent of Schools of Miss Princes school trying to pass off responsibility of her death to others , the same will happen in all schools where the Crime of Bullying is committed.
We live in a sad world when we can't protect our children from Bullys.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 03:41 PM
I've written for my student paper...back in the day. ;) And the stories always had to be approved by faculty. The writer is entitled to her opinion, but I think it was bad timing...or propaganda. I've found no mention of bullying in these stories...only the "adjustment issues"...


http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/bullied-to-death-2098808.html

Dear, dear, Lady... You have placed so much of yourself into this and I cannot begin to find the words of appreciation for what you do! :blowkiss: You actually proved a point that I didn't share. It has to be approved and at this moment, the writer wrote from her perspective and whomever approved it saw/read as a plus for fellow students, et al. Does the timing suck? Yes. But, look at the damage control that is being done here. Know what I mean? There is a rationalization for ignoring the bullying here. Frankly, I believe it will not work, but they will continue to try.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 03:42 PM
The picture of the library is indeed quite interesting. Great find...you are doing a superb job!

Phoebe was allegedly surrounded at her seat...angry profanities directed at just her...one child sitting alone...surrounded. How hard could it be for an attentive teacher in that room to pick up on what was happening?

It was ignored. Period.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Dear, dear, Lady... You have placed so much of yourself into this and I cannot begin to find the words of appreciation for what you do! :blowkiss: You actually proved a point that I didn't share. It has to be approved and at this moment, the writer wrote from her perspective and whomever approved it saw/read as a plus for fellow students, et al. Does the timing suck? Yes. But, look at the damage control that is being done here. Know what I mean? There is a rationalization for ignoring the bullying here. Frankly, I believe it will not work, but they will continue to try.

aww...you are kind, my friend. :blowkiss: That's my point. Why the focus in papers, including the student paper, on adjustment issues? Why no stories on bullying? The newletters focus was all on kids moving to new schools. As if THAT was the problem. That's my beef. :)

'It's sick' he told Cullen in terms of the cover up that was underway saying the local media was far too deferential to the school authorities.

Cullen,now a columnist at the globe began investigating and his subsequent stories about the bullies and the failure of school authorities to act blew the case wide open
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/darby-obrien-the-local-hero-who-exposed-phoebe-prince-bullies-89897482.html

respectfully bolded by me...

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:53 PM
Did I mention I'm in love with Kevin Cullen? ;)

Paladine
04-05-2010, 03:57 PM
The picture of the library is indeed quite interesting. Great find...you are doing a superb job!

Phoebe was allegedly surrounded at her seat...angry profanities directed at just her...one child sitting alone...surrounded. How hard could it be for an attentive teacher in that room to pick up on what was happening?

I think the adult saw it. I've read reports, unconfirmed, they blocked the door, so she couldn't leave...I can't wait to learn more about that.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 04:00 PM
aww...you are kind, my friend. :blowkiss: That's my point. Why the focus in papers, including the student paper, on adjustment issues? Why no stories on bullying? The newletters focus was all on kids moving to new schools. As if THAT was the problem. That's my beef. :)


http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/darby-obrien-the-local-hero-who-exposed-phoebe-prince-bullies-89897482.html

respectfully bolded by me...

You are thinking rationally. Think "damage control". Remove the emotion and think "business". That is what's going on here. That is the reason people, like ourselves, will continue to voice and make noise. It is not "sunshine and sweet lollipops" here. This is reality and the ignorance *must* end. Many have shared having money, status, or being in a clique is the reason. It's not. It's about having power over another for personal satisfaction. We keep making the noise and remember it's not just about Phoebe, it's about all these innocents who suffer they way she did. We are the voices of the abused lost. No one has the right to destroy and these young people must know we will not allow it to happen at the life expense.

I think I had a little vent there, eh? :)

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 04:03 PM
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/

One of Sauerkraut's Posters says she has the actual arrest report in pdf form. Sauerkraut will post if it passes muster.

That will be an interesting read.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:05 PM
You are thinking rationally. Think "damage control". Remove the emotion and think "business". That is what's going on here. That is the reason people, like ourselves, will continue to voice and make noise. It is not "sunshine and sweet lollipops" here. This is reality and the ignorance *must* end. Many have shared having money, status, or being in a clique is the reason. It's not. It's about having power over another for personal satisfaction. We keep making the noise and remember it's not just about Phoebe, it's about all these innocents who suffer they way she did. We are the voices of the abused lost. No one has the right to destroy and these young people must know we will not allow it to happen at the life expense.

I think I had a little vent there, eh? :)

Beautiful post. :) Yes. That's what's happening. But I want it here, posted in black and white, for all to see...how local media didn't step up when needed, imo...then, maybe...local media will see they can't hide, anymore...we, and others on the net, will call them out. And then they'll become irrelevant. Their choice.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:11 PM
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/

One of Sauerkraut's Posters says she has the actual arrest report in pdf form. Sauerkraut will post if it passes muster.

That will be an interesting read.

Wow...thanks for the heads up, Mary...:) Hope so...fingers crossed.

Muffet
04-05-2010, 04:14 PM
[.snip.]
http://www.townreminderonline.com/030510reminder.pdf

ETA: There is also a pic of SHHS library on this link, page 13, taken Feb 27th, 2010. It looks open and airy from this view...thinking of how a teacher could/couldnot have seen Phoebe being bullied in there. I can't seem to copy it, if anyone has better skills, and can, please do...\

:) Here ya go:
http://i41.tinypic.com/zl2n2r.jpg

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Thanks, Muffet! :blowkiss:

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:19 PM
The library looks SO open from that angle! I'm going to hunt for a few more pics...

Muffet
04-05-2010, 04:23 PM
Did I mention I'm in love with Kevin Cullen? ;)

We girls love true heroes, don't we? ;)

Muffet
04-05-2010, 04:25 PM
Thanks, Muffet! :blowkiss:

You're welcome! :)

I've been looking for a picture of Flannery Mullins (the 6th girl charged, and who will be arraigned tomorrow), but I can't find a thing. Have you seen one, or do you know where I might find one?

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:29 PM
Interesting read...

"But Prince also got picked on, according to students. It appeared as though her efforts to make new friends might have been misunderstood, they said.

"Our school is so small so they all knew who she was, but she was new and she was trying to get to know people," Szybziak said. "All the girls who didn't like her, it was just because she talked to their boyfriends. I think girlfriends got jealous because they wanted the attention on them. She didn't do anything wrong, but they took it the wrong way."
Prince engaged in school counseling to help her adjust to her new setting, according to Superintendent of Schools Gus Sayer.
"She didn't really like it here," said L. M., a freshman who exchanged conversations and text messages with Prince. Murphy noted the popularity of text messaging was one of the differences Prince mentioned between America and Ireland.

Freshman T. Narey agreed with Murphy as they walked home from school Friday.

"She was really cheerful - none of the girls liked it because she was flirtatious," Narey said.

Narey? Kayla's brother? According to this link...maybe...unless there are 2 T. Narey at SHHS and I doubt that.

I also wonder about Grace. S...wonder about her connections to the bullies...I have seen that name before...

And counseling...I recall hearing O'Brien saying on JVM Phoebe never saw a counselor, although, no link...so...not sure on that.
http://www.barryjfarrellfuneralhome.com/Nareyray.html
http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/01/16/stunned-students-grieve-and-regret?SESS0c659b247500b00f121a8eb9db79e336=gnews

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 04:39 PM
Interesting read...



Narey? Kayla's brother? According to this link...maybe...unless there are 2 T. Narey at SHHS and I doubt that.

I also wonder about Grace. S...wonder about her connections to the bullies...I have seen that name before...

And counseling...I recall hearing O'Brien saying on JVM Phoebe never saw a counselor, although, no link...so...not sure on that.
http://www.barryjfarrellfuneralhome.com/Nareyray.html
http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/01/16/stunned-students-grieve-and-regret?SESS0c659b247500b00f121a8eb9db79e336=gnews

"T Narey" is mentioned in the obituary for Kayla's Dad.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:40 PM
You're welcome! :)

I've been looking for a picture of Flannery Mullins (the 6th girl charged, and who will be arraigned tomorrow), but I can't find a thing. Have you seen one, or do you know where I might find one?

I haven't found anything on her. She interests me...I've read some wild comments about her. We need help finding info on her...if anyone is reading this. ;)

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Another thing..if she was receiving in school counseling...what are the chances she never mentioned the bullying?

Yet Gus Sayer says no one knew anything until a week before?

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:41 PM
"T. Narey" is mentioned in the obituary for Kayla's Dad.

Yes, he is. And he's about the right age, too. A freshman.

respectfully edited by me to remove the full first name...

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 04:52 PM
Thank you...fixed it. I read in comments on some page thatthey had new Facebook pages under "new names." So nothing much has changed.

Don't know if the names can be posted though.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 04:54 PM
Another thing..if she was receiving in school counseling...what are the chances she never mentioned the bullying?

Yet Gus Sayer says no one knew anything until a week before?

Good point. But I still think she never received counseling. I'm 99% sure O'Brien said so...

Muffet
04-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Yet, it doesn't seem all these kids are from affluent "privileged" families. Narey deceased Father was a plumber. Mulveyhill's home is just an average family home.

Any info on the others.

Maybe their status was from their athletic abilities and the cache it brought to the schools.

Three new posts today for anyone interested...
http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

It looks like the typical "big fish in a small pond" thing. Sports alone can make a kid an untouchable, and it appears at least two leaders of the bully pack qualified.

Sean would probably have quite a wake-up call if he got into a college with a serious football team. It will be interesting to see what happens there.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 05:14 PM
found this comment on run4chocolate...these could be important...IF authentic. I remember the KC case. I was on topix when brother Rick was posting. And we know how that went down...the posts were in evidence.
"Giana Caldieri:
I was one of Phoebe’s teachers in the beginning of the year we talked a lot. She was an incredibly intelligent girl who just moved to the US from Ireland in September. She was an excellent student who had excellent work ethics, and, unlike the school she attended here, students where she came from were proud of getting good grades, not slacking off. She was picked on and bullied 1st because she always did her homework and got good grades. In order to be popular, or be befriended, she felt the need to stop doing homework and start doing poorly in class. She was a freshman, and the slackers were upperclassmen. She just wanted friends. Unfortunately, either way she was bullied. She was beautiful, so she was bullied by girls when she was playing the ‘dumb’ girl and boys were then attracted to her. It was nonstop. When I turned in girls who stepped into my own class to threaten Phoebe, I never even heard any feedback. I wish I could have saved her. The last day she was in school, she didn’t have my class. Her last walk out to the bus a girl screamed expletives at her just as she was getting on her bus. Then she went home. We will never see her again. All she ever wanted was to go back home to her cows in Ireland.

Location: South Hadley
Posts: 75
AUSTIN RENAUD

this year my history teacher left the class so i told one of the retarded kids to run around the class spaying axe so he did and me and my buddy started hittin his bowl and there was a teacher in the class anyway who saw but didnt pay attention because she smokes with the kids at lunch time. but the kid running around with the axe was hilarious

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/south-hadley-teachers-we-are-shocked-shocked/#comments

And mods, this from the blog owner...
"I see some of the websleuth folks have visited; tried to respond directly to some of the incorrect or off-base comments on the phoebe forum over there but that site seems not to like me"
would someone help our friend out, please? We sure could use the help...imo.

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 05:17 PM
It looks like the typical "big fish in a small pond" thing. Sports alone can make a kid an untouchable, and it appears at least two leaders of the bully pack qualified.

Sean would probably have quite a wake-up call if he got into a college with a serious football team. It will be interesting to see what happens there.

Did anyone else read he was 5'7" or 8" in his Football stats? I think that's the case.

So many very big players in college ball...he may have no longer been the star.

But I think you are right...I think it was their athletic status. Probably well liked by faculty...so their actions were dismissed. Poor Phoebe. No one would listen.

raeann
04-05-2010, 05:23 PM
Interesting read...



Narey? Kayla's brother? According to this link...maybe...unless there are 2 T. Narey at SHHS and I doubt that.

I also wonder about Grace. S...wonder about her connections to the bullies...I have seen that name before...

And counseling...I recall hearing O'Brien saying on JVM Phoebe never saw a counselor, although, no link...so...not sure on that.
http://www.barryjfarrellfuneralhome.com/Nareyray.html
http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/01/16/stunned-students-grieve-and-regret?SESS0c659b247500b00f121a8eb9db79e336=gnews

T.N. is listed as a freshman football player......in alphabetical order right after SM on the website roster.

http://shadleyfootball.vnsports.com/schedules/Default.asp

Muffet
04-05-2010, 05:27 PM
I haven't found anything on her. She interests me...I've read some wild comments about her. We need help finding info on her...if anyone is reading this. ;)
OK, here's an image that has all six. Flannery is in the center of the bottom row.
http://i43.tinypic.com/10rpxsp.jpg

adnoid
04-05-2010, 05:33 PM
...And mods, this from the blog owner...

would someone help our friend out, please? We sure could use the help...imo.

I sent the blog owner a message that I could help with registration.

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 05:46 PM
When District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel charged the nine teens in late March, she said that Phoebe had endured a three-month campaign of bullying that was "common knowledge" among the students at the high school. She also said that "the investigation has revealed that certain faculty, staff, and administrators of the high school also were alerted to the harassment of Phoebe Prince before her death." Boisselle and Superintendent Gus Sayer have responded with what looks from the outside like a completely tone-deaf series of scoffs and denials. "Did they go interview all 700 kids at the school and found out that more than 300 knew about it? Isn't that the only way you could tell that they factually knew about it?" Boisselle asked in the Boston Herald. In print interviews and on CNN, Sayer has stuck to the oddly unapologetic line that the high school did all it could for Phoebe. Administrators and teachers just didn't really know or understand what was going on. "The kids have a way of communicating with each other without us knowing about it,'' he said. "They really have their own world."

This is meant as a defense, rather than an admission of lameness, even though after a suicide you'd think that the school would do some soul searching about why administrators, teachers, and guidance counselors didn't fully comprehend what was happening to a vulnerable student. This professed ignorance is also factually at odds with the account of Phoebe's mother, who has said she asked the school in November whether kids were threatening her daughter and then went back to talk to school officials about Phoebe in the first week of January. Sayer's claim also doesn't line up with the accounts of students who I've talked to. They say they saw Phoebe standing outside a classroom in tears and heard her crying in the nurse's office the day she died, as some students also told the New York Times.

Luke Gelinas, a parent who has called for the resignation of Sayer and Principal Dan Smith, told me he met with Sayer last Friday morning. "I told him I'd heard from Darby O'Brien, the spokesman for the Prince family, that during the intake process in September, when Phoebe was brought to the school, it was made known to them that she was prone to bullying and that she should have regular counseling and checkups to make sure she's OK. Sayer confirmed that for me. But no counselors reached out to her until three months later." This hasn't been reported elsewhere, so I called Sayer's office to check on it. I haven't heard back.

http://www.slate.com/id/2249867/

elle1919
04-05-2010, 05:50 PM
I went away for the weekend and I see everyone has been oh ...so busy and Phoebe has her own little place in the sun.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 06:33 PM
Luke Gelinas, a parent who has called for the resignation of Sayer and Principal Dan Smith, told me he met with Sayer last Friday morning. "I told him I'd heard from Darby O'Brien, the spokesman for the Prince family, that during the intake process in September, when Phoebe was brought to the school, it was made known to them that she was prone to bullying and that she should have regular counseling and checkups to make sure she's OK. Sayer confirmed that for me. But no counselors reached out to her until three months later." This hasn't been reported elsewhere, so I called Sayer's office to check on it. I haven't heard back.
http://www.slate.com/id/2249867/

respectfully snipped from post...more questions around "counseling"...

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 06:55 PM
"prone to bullying"..what does THAT mean?

That Phoebe was a bully herself? Or that she attracted bullying toward herself?

Poor choice of words.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 07:24 PM
"prone to bullying"..what does THAT mean?

That Phoebe was a bully herself? Or that she attracted bullying toward herself?

I would guess she attracted bullying toward herself. We certainly have seen no reports suggesting she was bullying anyone. How well was she doing in Ireland's school? Do we know anything about that?

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 07:43 PM
I would guess she attracted bullying toward herself. We certainly have seen no reports suggesting she was bullying anyone. How well was she doing in Ireland's school? Do we know anything about that?

Jenny, I've read a number of articles that say she was very well liked. She attended a private school in Ireland. I'll try to find some links for you.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 07:43 PM
I would guess she attracted bullying toward herself. We certainly have seen no reports suggesting she was bullying anyone. How well was she doing in Ireland's school? Do we know anything about that?

How the heck does anyone "attract bullying" toward themselves??? Please, with respect I ask, explain that to me.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 07:45 PM
How the heck does anyone "attract bullying" toward themselves??? Please, with respect I ask, explain that to me.

Why don't you contact slate.com and ask them what exactly they meant by "prone to bullying" and then report it back to us?

Paladine
04-05-2010, 07:45 PM
"prone to bullying"..what does THAT mean?

That Phoebe was a bully herself? Or that she attracted bullying toward herself?
IMO maybe that she was a sensitive kid who had been hurt by bullying previously...it implies to me, she had been a victim before, in some sense. Not surprising to me. The meek traditionally get eaten by the strong in our cruel society, imo...vulnerbility, they seem to sniff it out when they pick their victims...

Muffet
04-05-2010, 07:46 PM
Everything I've read sounds like she did very well with other kids in Ireland. She went to a well-respected boarding school.

From this (http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/phoebe-prince-had-sweet-life-in-ireland-before-us-nightmare-89751062.html) page:

[Her father] is remembered as a real green-fingers phenomenon, a man who made a living in good times and tough times. Anne became a schoolteacher locally and her kids. Her four girls and a boy were well-liked, well-mannered kids.

Phoebe went to school in the exclusive Villiers college in nearby Limerick. She is remembered there as a warm, outgoing girl popular in a coed boarding school environment where fast friends were made for life.

Villiers has a Protestant ethos and is fee-paying. The student body is multi-denominational and diverse, including students from Spain, Mexico, South Africa, Germany and Russia.

It is a nursery for many distinguished former pupils including politician Jan O'Sullivan. It has a unique reputation as a nurturing environment. Phoebe thrived there.

Just judging by the fact that the S.Hadley bullies were despicable enough to post ugly things online about her the day she died, and the obscene and contradictory excuse making by school officials and the one parent, I'm convinced that they were the source of the problem - not Phoebe.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 07:47 PM
Everything I've read sounds like she did very well with other kids in Ireland. She went to a well-respected boarding school.

From this (http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/phoebe-prince-had-sweet-life-in-ireland-before-us-nightmare-89751062.html) page:

[Her father] is remembered as a real green-fingers phenomenon, a man who made a living in good times and tough times. Anne became a schoolteacher locally and her kids. Her four girls and a boy were well-liked, well-mannered kids.

Phoebe went to school in the exclusive Villiers college in nearby Limerick. She is remembered there as a warm, outgoing girl popular in a coed boarding school environment where fast friends were made for life.

Villiers has a Protestant ethos and is fee-paying. The student body is multi-denominational and diverse, including students from Spain, Mexico, South Africa, Germany and Russia.

It is a nursery for many distinguished former pupils including politician Jan O'Sullivan. It has a unique reputation as a nurturing environment. Phoebe thrived there.

Just judging by the fact that the S.Hadley bullies were despicable enough to post ugly things online about her the day she died, and the obscene and contradictory excuse making by school officials and the one parent, I'm convinced that they were the source of the problem - not Phoebe.

And even if she did have a problem before...it means nothing. SHE is not responsible for her victimization, the perps are. IMO

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 07:49 PM
Why don't you contact slate.com and ask them what exactly they meant by "prone to bullying" and then report it back to us?

A dose of uncalled for sarcasm. Good grief....

Paladine
04-05-2010, 07:53 PM
Maybe they are confused in that article. They seem to be quoting a Man, quoting Darby O'Brien...something may have gotten lost in translation...

Muffet
04-05-2010, 07:58 PM
I'd guess all kids who are new to a country and school are prone to being bullied. So it could have simply meant they should take care that she felt welcome instead of shunned, as a child from another country coming to a small school in a tightly knit community, after spending her life among close friends.

It would be a wise thing to watch out for her, imo. Changing schools is hard, even for kids experienced with it and surrounded by other shuffled kids, like those with parents in the military. It would be especially tough on a 14 year old girl.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 07:58 PM
How the heck does anyone "attract bullying" toward themselves??? Please, with respect I ask, explain that to me.

They don't "attract bullying", imo. Perps sniff out vulnerbility. We see it in many cases. Be it a small child, an open window, an inattentive Mother, a meek person...they are predators, imo.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:00 PM
It could have simply meant they should take care that she felt welcome instead of shunned, as a child from another country coming to a small school in a tightly knit community, after spending her life among close friends.

It would be a wise thing to watch out for her, imo. Changing schools is hard, even for kids experienced with it and surrounded by other shuffled kids, like those with parents in the military. It would be especially tough on a 14 year old girl.

I don't think "prone to bullying" would be use unless she had some issues with bullying in the past. Assuming of course the report is correct and the school was actually warned she was "prone to bullying."

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 08:05 PM
Bullying can come in so many ways/directions. We have even seen it here very recently and we are adults. As adults, we can take it from the whatever source it comes from. I know I do. There is no peer pressure nor do we have to prove ourself to anyone. For a teen of 15, just place yourself where they are at that age. This is not like our days of way back when. It has been taken up a notch. Somewhere, these "children" never learned compassion, empathy, or even guilt of actions. Add in the transition flux of growing into yourself and that struggle. I do not believe Ms Prince was incapable of dealing. I think she was beyond slammed by stronger abusive forces she had never experienced before.

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 08:08 PM
respectfully snipped from post...more questions around "counseling"...

"Many of the girl’s shocked and mourning peers believe that the teen was bullied, Sayer said.

“She was having some difficulty adjusting to the new school and she was getting help with that,” Sayer said, referring to counseling Prince was getting. “I am very reluctant to speculate why she did what she did.”

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/south_hadley_high_school_stude.html

Muffet
04-05-2010, 08:11 PM
I don't think "prone to bullying" would be use unless she had some issues with bullying in the past. Assuming of course the report is correct and the school was actually warned she was "prone to bullying."

I can't say for sure why they said it, but since all kids who are new to a country and school are prone to being bullied, and schools should be alerted to watch for it, I wouldn't assume "prone to bullying" meant anything more than just that - at least not until I had some information to contradict all the reports that she was happy and well-liked in Ireland.

Either way, I'm not inclined to see any of this as a problem with her, but with her abusers. Nor am I inclined to look for excuses for them. YMMV

adnoid
04-05-2010, 08:12 PM
And even if she did have a problem before...it means nothing. SHE is not responsible for her victimization, the perps are. IMO

Absolutely, 100% correct.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:13 PM
"Many of the girl’s shocked and mourning peers believe that the teen was bullied, Sayer said.

“She was having some difficulty adjusting to the new school and she was getting help with that,” Sayer said, referring to counseling Prince was getting. “I am very reluctant to speculate why she did what she did.”

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/south_hadley_high_school_stude.html

It sounds like she started getting counseling a short time before she killed herself.

adnoid
04-05-2010, 08:14 PM
Adnoid, if I could thank your post a thousand times, I would. Well done, Adnoid. Well done...

Aw, you don't need to do that. Just give me a poke now and again.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:15 PM
I can't say for sure why they said it, but since all kids who are new to a country and school are prone to being bullied, and schools should be alerted to watch for it, I wouldn't assume "prone to bullying" meant anything more than just that - at least not until I had some information to contradict all the reports that she was happy and well-liked in Ireland.

Either way, I'm not inclined to see any of this as a problem with her, but with her abusers. Nor am I inclined to look for excuses for them. YMMV

If your child had no issues with bulling, would you be informing the school your child was "prone to bullying?" Of course we don't know if that report is correct, but I don't think this is something people would be informing the school about if the child had no issues with bullying before the move.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:16 PM
maybe, they simply phrased the fact that she was previously bullied clumsily. Maybe they were simply trying to say...it had happened before.

adnoid
04-05-2010, 08:18 PM
"prone to bullying"..what does THAT mean?

That Phoebe was a bully herself? Or that she attracted bullying toward herself?

Poor choice of words.

I would take it as the family was told that she could expect to be bullied at the school. It would make sense, as clearly the school knew that it happens - a lot - and that the school doesn't really do anything about it.

Nobody can attract bullying toward themselves. Bullying comes from low life, worthless coward bullies. If she had been bullied in the past that's 100% a reflection on the bullies and says nothing about her. Nobody wants to be bullied.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:18 PM
It sounds like she started getting counseling a short time before she killed herself.

I'm not sure on that. There are too many conflicting statements, imo, it seems too cloudy, to me.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:19 PM
maybe, they simply phrased the fact that she was previously bullied clumsily. Maybe they were simply trying to say...it had happened before.

This issue probably could play a role in a civil lawsuit as to whether the school was informed about any potential problems and should have done more to protect the girl.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:24 PM
"Many of the girl’s shocked and mourning peers believe that the teen was bullied, Sayer said.

“She was having some difficulty adjusting to the new school and she was getting help with that,” Sayer said, referring to counseling Prince was getting. “I am very reluctant to speculate why she did what she did.”

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/south_hadley_high_school_stude.html

yeah...but I'm 99% sure I heard the family spokesperson say Phoebe never had the oportunity to see a counselor, he seemed to challenge that. Later on, I'll switch laptops and see if I can find the video. I think it was JVM, late last week...wed-thurs-fri, maybe...my daughter's using it, now....this one has no sound, I broke the jack inside the computer...lol...oh well.

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 08:24 PM
"Sayer said in recent years the School Department has implemented high school policies on bullying and run programs to alert students to the nature of the problem.

Last fall, the South Hadley School Department had a nationally-recognized expert on bullying, Barbara Colorosa, conduct a full-day workshop for the staff and an evening program for the community. The high school had also recently reviewed and revised its policies with regard to bullying, Sayer said."

The school knew they had a problem. As a new student from another country...Phoebe probably "fit the profile" that these experts felt were most vulnerable...or as clumsily put by that writer..."prone to bullying."

They SHOULD have used all their investments in seminars and studies and paid attention to the situation.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 08:28 PM
maybe, they simply phrased the fact that she was previously bullied clumsily. Maybe they were simply trying to say...it had happened before.

Phrased badly or not, NO child should be the ***victim*** of bullying. Also, how would anyone know (fellow classmates) "if" occured overseas unless they were told and shared that information? Kinda makes you think, huh....

stmarysmead
04-05-2010, 08:29 PM
"Cindy Kele, a former South Hadley High School substitute teacher, says she knew all about the bullying of Phoebe Prince well before her suicide. We asked her if she thinks school officials knew about it too. Kele said "I think that they had to have known before that unless they were totally not paying any attention to anything going on in the school. Then, you do have to question them being there, if they’re not doing their job." She said she reported the bullying but not enough was done by the administration to save Phoebe Prince."

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/charges-could-follow-teens-for-life

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:29 PM
Phrased badly or not, NO child should be the ***victim*** of bullying. Also, how would anyone know (fellow classmates) "if" occured overseas unless they were told and shared that information? Kinda makes you think, huh....

Nobody of her classmates had said they knew of any previous issues from overseas, as far as I know.

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 08:29 PM
Aw, you don't need to do that. Just give me a poke now and again.

:) Like it's my job.....

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:39 PM
Phrased badly or not, NO child should be the ***victim*** of bullying. Also, how would anyone know (fellow classmates) "if" occured overseas unless they were told and shared that information? Kinda makes you think, huh....

Oh, yeah...it could be an attempt at spin, imo. I have no idea. I await the facts...:)

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 08:40 PM
Nobody of her classmates had said they knew of any previous issues from overseas, as far as I know.

Well, if that is true then this group made it their choice, without any prior alledged knowledge, to torment this young lady. For their own purposes. How disturbing is that? And, the school did nothing. Absolutely nothing. Even held a damn dance and worried about the affect it would have on the future of the tormenters. Makes me ill......

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:40 PM
"Cindy Kele, a former South Hadley High School substitute teacher, says she knew all about the bullying of Phoebe Prince well before her suicide. We asked her if she thinks school officials knew about it too. Kele said "I think that they had to have known before that unless they were totally not paying any attention to anything going on in the school. Then, you do have to question them being there, if they’re not doing their job." She said she reported the bullying but not enough was done by the administration to save Phoebe Prince."

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/charges-could-follow-teens-for-life

What a link! Thanks...wonder if its the one we saw the comment quote from a couple pages back. She posted her email, said she would "step up". She said she subbed, too.

Brian Seaman
04-05-2010, 08:42 PM
Hey folks. I am a Canadian researcher/writer whose specialty is human rights and civil liberties issues. I've written about this case on my personal blog. If interested, you can read my "Message for the Queens of South Hadley High School" at:
http://brianseaman.blogspot.com/
Peace and love from Canada.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:43 PM
Well, if that is true then this group made it their choice, without any prior alledged knowledge, to torment this young lady. For their own purposes. How disturbing is that? And, the school did nothing. Absolutely nothing. Even held a damn dance and worried about the affect it would have on the future of the tormenters. Makes me ill......

We don't know if they knew anything or not know anything, or if there were anything to know.
They aren't exactly talking about what they knew or didn't know.

Muffet
04-05-2010, 08:43 PM
If your child had no issues with bulling, would you be informing the school your child was "prone to bullying?" Of course we don't know if that report is correct, but I don't think this is something people would be informing the school about if the child had no issues with bullying before the move.
Not only would I, but I did and would again, for all the reasons I gave.

The phrase they used (in the article) made it sound like she was prone to being the bully, so I wouldn't use that, but I would advise all parents and faculty to be on the watch for bullying, even if my kid had no issues with it before, because being this is new situation for them, and being the new kid is a well-known risk factor for it.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 08:45 PM
Hey folks. I am a Canadian researcher/writer whose specialty is human rights and civil liberties issues. I've written about this case on my personal blog. If interested, you can read my "Message for the Queens of South Hadley High School" at:
http://brianseaman.blogspot.com/
Peace and love from Canada.

Hey you, fellow Canuck! :) I've seen your postings on articles, good to have you here. Hope you contribute regularily! :)

OrdinaryLife
04-05-2010, 08:47 PM
"Sayer said in recent years the School Department has implemented high school policies on bullying and run programs to alert students to the nature of the problem.

Last fall, the South Hadley School Department had a nationally-recognized expert on bullying, Barbara Colorosa, conduct a full-day workshop for the staff and an evening program for the community. The high school had also recently reviewed and revised its policies with regard to bullying, Sayer said."

The school knew they had a problem. As a new student from another country...Phoebe probably "fit the profile" that these experts felt were most vulnerable...or as clumsily put by that writer..."prone to bullying."

They SHOULD have used all their investments in seminars and studies and paid attention to the situation.

Sayer, himself, apparently, missed some of the workshop meetings and never read his schools handbook regarding bullying. :rolleyes: Considering that feeble dance he is doing, I wonder if there isn't some truth to what I wrote above.

jjenny
04-05-2010, 08:47 PM
Not only would I, but I did and would again, for all the reasons I gave.

The phrase they used (in the article) made it sound like she was prone to being the bully, so I wouldn't use that, but I would advise all parents and faculty to be on the watch for bullying, even if my kid had no issues with it before, because being this is new situation for them, and being the new kid is a well-known risk factor for it.

I sincerely doubt any parents would go to school and say "my child is prone to being a bully, watch out for him/her."

Muffet
04-05-2010, 08:54 PM
I sincerely doubt any parents would go to school and say "my child is prone to being a bully, watch out for him/her."

I don't think anyone ever did.

Paladine
04-05-2010, 09:55 PM
That new photo of Phoebe I posted today keeps flashing through my mind. Phoebe looked so happy, with a friend/buddy, posing, alot like my own daughter would...imo...she reminded me of something...this...I post this song for her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQCPifM-p8

Paladine
04-05-2010, 10:20 PM
Rounding out the top five lead newsmakers of the week were Phoebe Prince and Afghan President Hamid Karzai, featured heavily in 1% of all stories each. Authorities believe Prince, a 15-year-old Massachusetts girl, hanged herself as the result of online and school-related bullying.
http://www.journalism.org/index_report/pej_news_coverage_index_march_29_april_4_2010

Paladine
04-05-2010, 10:23 PM
Republican gubernatorial candidate Charles Baker...
Earlier in the day, Baker took part in an online chat on The Boston Globe’s Web site.

In the chat, he said he supports a bullying bill currently in the Legislature. But he added that as a parent of three teenage children, he said that had he been involved, he would have hoped he could have prevented the hanging death of South Hadley High School student Phoebe Prince.

He said he hopes he "would have forced some kind of resolution long before it reached its tragic conclusion."
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/politics/view/20100405gops_charles_baker_criticizes_mass_rmv_bra nches_closings/srvc=home&position=recent

Paladine
04-05-2010, 10:35 PM
New photo of Phoebe from this link...
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12257532

Paladine
04-05-2010, 11:07 PM
This is Marys link from earlier. Isn't this stating the obvious? Or maybe an attempt to draw sympathy? When do charges NOT follow someone?
"Charges could follow teens for life South Hadley teens' lives may be impacted forever"
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/charges-could-follow-teens-for-life

Paladine
04-05-2010, 11:24 PM
"South Hadley School Committee election attracts no contest, lowest voter turnout in years"

Despite the community being under an international media spotlight related to Phoebe Prince, only 5.9 percent or 647 of the town’s registered voters turned out at the polls in Monday’s municipal election.

Town Clerk-Treasurer Carlene C. Hamlin said it was the lowest turnout for a town election in recent years. Last year, when voters rejected referendum questions seeking to merge the community’s two fire districts and adopt the mayoral form of government, about 46 percent of the electorate voted.

“Nobody is running. Since nobody is running, nobody is voting,” Kurt C. Schenker, 47, said after casting a ballot at the South Hadley Public Library.
"People may be upset or unhappy, but they are not at the point where they want to get involved. That is half the problem,” said Constance A. Clancy, the warden for Precinct B for which residents cast ballots at the South Hadley Public Library. The situation is not unusual, the former selectman added, because for years residents have been apathetic when it comes to local elections."


Apathetic. That makes me think they feel helpless and unempowered. It's actually sad.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/south_hadley_voter_turnout_low.html

raeann
04-05-2010, 11:27 PM
New photo of Phoebe from this link...
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12257532

Good job....I found that photo earlier today but did not know how to post it without showing the other girl in the picture with her. She was a gorgeous young lady, and it is obvious that jealousy played a large part in the attacks against her.

jmoo

Brian Seaman
04-05-2010, 11:52 PM
It looks like the typical "big fish in a small pond" thing. Sports alone can make a kid an untouchable, and it appears at least two leaders of the bully pack qualified.

Sean would probably have quite a wake-up call if he got into a college with a serious football team. It will be interesting to see what happens there.

Indeed, if he even made the team. I work at a university in Canada that has over 40,000 students, a far cry from being the biggest school in Canada and certainly much smaller than many of your big schools in the U.S. I don't see many football players under 6 feet, and I certainly don't see anyone that's only 5 feet, 8 inches tall, which I've read is Sean's height. It's safe to say his "glory days" and those of Kayla et al., were at South Hadley, up until Jan. 14, 2010. Oh well. If he's convicted, and he likely will be, he'll have lots of sex in prison, whether he wants it or not.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:01 AM
A new facebook page "Sean Mulveyhill is a Coward..."
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sean-Mulveyhill-is-a-C-O-W-A-R-D-PIECE-OF-S-H-I-T/109138749115987?ref=search&sid=1043353007.1390674463..1&v=wall

Brian Seaman
04-06-2010, 12:03 AM
Hey you, fellow Canuck! :) I've seen your postings on articles, good to have you here. Hope you contribute regularily! :)

Hey Paladine! I've been having some cool chat with a nice guy named Cabe who's living in Georgia. He said he's always regarded Canada as a big, much safer and nicer backyard to the U.S. I told him thanks but let him know we have our problems up here too. It's just the States' have a lot more because there are so many more people down there.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:38 AM
Hey Paladine! I've been having some cool chat with a nice guy named Cabe who's living in Georgia. He said he's always regarded Canada as a big, much safer and nicer backyard to the U.S. I told him thanks but let him know we have our problems up here too. It's just the States' have a lot more because there are so many more people down there.

Yes, I've met some pretty cool people on blogs, as well. Some have even become what I'd term "friend". And we do have our share of challenges...that's for for sure.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 01:12 AM
New blog post at run4chocolate...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/?pages-list

Paladine
04-06-2010, 01:32 AM
Prince spokesperson on Dr. Phil this Thursday...taped today...
O'Brien said that the Prince family sees the situation as a tragedy for all involved and its likely the defendants' non-appearance in court this week is not the top item on their minds.

"I think that they're fighting on and trying to get by daily, and looking out for their younger daughter. And at some point, and I think it will be good, they will speak and tell their story,” said O’Brien
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/upcoming-dr.phil-to-cover-prince-case

BeenaBobba
04-06-2010, 01:58 AM
Looks like there's yet another Facebook group devoted to Phoebe:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=115317058482769

Unfortunately, I'm not sure it has all that much to do with Phoebe. The premise is that the media uproar is preventing her from resting in peace. I disagree. If left to their own devices, I fear that the people of South Hadley would sweep this tragedy under the rug, and if that happened, justice wouldn't be served. Personally, I can't help but think that Phoebe may not have taken her life if she knew how much the entire world cared about her.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:21 AM
Looks like there's yet another Facebook group devoted to Phoebe:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=115317058482769

Unfortunately, I'm not sure it has all that much to do with Phoebe. The premise is that the media uproar is preventing her from resting in peace. I disagree. If left to their own devices, I fear that the people of South Hadley would sweep this tragedy under the rug, and if that happened, justice wouldn't be served. Personally, I can't help but think that Phoebe may not have taken her life if she knew how much the entire world cared about her.

No. I don't trust it, either. Look at one of the groups the admin belongs to...;) not exactly an anti-bullying position...lol...

"I got yelled at/ in trouble for doing it.......but it was SOOOOO worth it!
Non-Profit"
I find it shameful when I see what I interpret as bullies and their supporters hiding behind Phoebe, using her as cover...I'm trying hard not to be too cynical.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:37 AM
From Dr. Phil's blog...
"You may know that I’ve been on an intense crusade against teen bullying for the last several years. Right now, I am outraged! Bullying takes many forms. It happens with both boys and girls, on playgrounds and school buses, and now with cell phones and computers, there’s cyberbullying — omnipresent, electronic stalkers who can go after their targets day and night.

What’s happening before our very eyes is scary, and we are seeing sickeningly tragic results. Case in point, the recent heart-breaking and outrageous story of 15-year-old Phoebe Prince. Sadly, this is not an isolated story, as I have dealt with many heart-breaking stories of unchecked bullying many times over the last several years, some resulting in death"
http://blog.drphil.com/2010/03/31/justice-for-phoebe/

Paladine
04-06-2010, 03:17 AM
Good job....I found that photo earlier today but did not know how to post it without showing the other girl in the picture with her. She was a gorgeous young lady, and it is obvious that jealousy played a large part in the attacks against her.

jmoo

I had the same problem earlier with a task that overreached my abilities...BeenaBobba answered my prayer and posted the pic. Team work, my friend. :) It's what makes WS so special, imo.

BeenaBobba
04-06-2010, 04:29 AM
Here's the website for Villiers, Phoebe's former school:

http://www.villiers-school.com/

Boyz_Mum
04-06-2010, 10:18 AM
A new facebook page "Sean Mulveyhill is a Coward..."


I snipped the link. This page makes me feel mixed emotions. On one hand it's nice to see that there are a number of 'fans', giving this person a 'taste of his own medicine' BUT I also feel two wrongs don't make a right. I hope all of these 'fans' are able to find a better way of working through these emotions and not continue the bullying. KWIM?

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 10:39 AM
http://scarlett-journey.net/2010/03/30/phoebe-prince-death/#comments

Keep It In Perspective...who claims to be a relative of one of the accused Bullies...seems to think the problem was that Phoebe wasn't tough enough. He took bullying...hey, then everybody should.

It would do a better service to his family if he understood...that TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and true CONTRITION....if it exists...would be the first step to toning down the widespead anger toward the Accused.

Show, at least in death...you have mercy toward Phoebe...maybe more will have mercy toward you.

I wrote about this on my Blog too today.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:17 PM
Phoebe Prince's Death Is a Call to Action
By Dr. Dale Archer
Now is the time to take a stand so that Phoebe’s death will not be in vain; it must happen in the courtroom, the legislature, the schools and most importantly in your own home.

"I’m not a big fan of legally prosecuting teens for bad behavior but this must case in South Hadley, Mass. must be turned into an example. A girl DIED here and the message needs to be sent to all teens, their parents and the schools that bullying can have fatal consequences and will NEVER be acceptable or tolerated. Kudos to district attorney Elizabeth Scheibel for filing charges."
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/06/dr-dale-archer-phoebe-prince-south-hadley-mass-bullying-death-da/

ETA:fyi- *editing error was on site, not mine, it appears this way on the site..."but this must case in South Hadley, Mass. must be... "

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:22 PM
http://scarlett-journey.net/2010/03/30/phoebe-prince-death/#comments

Keep It In Perspective...who claims to be a relative of one of the accused Bullies...seems to think the problem was that Phoebe wasn't tough enough. He took bullying...hey, then everybody should.

It would do a better service to his family if he understood...that TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and true CONTRITION....if it exists...would be the first step to toning down the widespead anger toward the Accused.

Show, at least in death...you have mercy toward Phoebe...maybe more will have mercy toward you.

I wrote about this on my Blog too today.
Thanks, Mary...I've read your blog, you're doing a great job over there. :blowkiss: And I enjoyed your rebuttal to Keep it in perspective in the comments, as well...thanks for sharing. :)

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:28 PM
One more must post quote from the previous link...
"I say, again, that an example must be set here and charges must be filed against school employees that should have known (or knew) what was going on. It is NEVER acceptable as a teacher, administrator or principal to bury your head in the sand and claim ignorance. We entrust our children, our most precious resources, to the school system; as parents we must demand accountability."
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/06/dr-dale-archer-phoebe-prince-south-hadley-mass-bullying-death-da/

imo bolded by me...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:34 PM
"Phoebe Prince's suicide shows students were running the island and adults were missing"
Richard Cohen
"Golding's book is about evil. Kids can be mean. They want to belong. They mistake the strength of empathy for weakness. They need help. An invisible umbilical cord should connect them to a mature conscience. At South Hadley High School, the kids were running the island and the adults were missing. Where were the teachers? Where was the principal? But where, above all, were the parents?
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/columnists/cohen/index.html#ixzz0kL3IKlXX
bolded by me...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:48 PM
"The charges of civil rights violations, most-often used in connection with incidents of racial or sexual discrimination and over-zealous police misconduct, were filed on the strength of Scheibel's belief that bullies had made going to public school (a civil right) intolerable for Prince.

The stalking charges also hang by a thread, legal pros said. Usually used in domestic violence cases, Scheibel must make this charge work on the basis of allegations that Prince was followed by bullies on her way home.

But nobody is calling it a cakewalk for the defense, either.

Experts consulted by IrishCentral made it abundantly clear that even brushing up against a "blame the victim" approach — perhaps by saying that as a young Irish immigrant new to both South Hadley and the United States, Prince was more fragile and vulnerable than another girl might have been, is dangerous ground, and ripe for impassioned counterattack by the state.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Uphill-battle-for-proesctor-in-Phoebe-Prince-bullying-suicide-case-89967622.html

MaureenN
04-06-2010, 12:49 PM
In a discussion I'm having elsewhere regarding bullying in schools, another poster is saying that it is not the job of schools to teach character, to teach children how to treat others, to discuss morals & ethics with the children. That person states that the responsibility for that lies with the children's home, family, church. And, while I agree that those are important elements in shaping a child's conscience & behavior - I also believe that the larger community can and should step in where those fail.

Anyway - what I'd like to know & figured people here might be able to find out, is whether the bullies, any of them, attended church with their families. Does anyone know how we could find that information?

Paladine
04-06-2010, 12:57 PM
In a discussion I'm having elsewhere regarding bullying in schools, another poster is saying that it is not the job of schools to teach character, to teach children how to treat others, to discuss morals & ethics with the children. That person states that the responsibility for that lies with the children's home, family, church. And, while I agree that those are important elements in shaping a child's conscience & behavior - I also believe that the larger community can and should step in where those fail.

Anyway - what I'd like to know & figured people here might be able to find out, is whether the bullies, any of them, attended church with their families. Does anyone know how we could find that information?
Personally, I've seen no references to church attendance. The only thing I can think of, at this time, is a search of church newsletters, maybe...looking for names...or, sometimes churches will have boards, of sorts...people responsible for different tasks...then maybe see if you can link any names to the perps. A possible start...good luck! :)

abbra
04-06-2010, 12:57 PM
(I was one of Phoebe’s teachers in the beginning of the year we talked a lot. She was an incredibly intelligent girl who just moved to the US from Ireland in September. She was an excellent student who had excellent work ethics, and, unlike the school she attended here, students where she came from were proud of getting good grades, not slacking off. She was picked on and bullied 1st because she always did her homework and got good grades. In order to be popular, or be befriended, she felt the need to stop doing homework and start doing poorly in class. She was a freshman, and the slackers were upperclassmen. She just wanted friends. Unfortunately, either way she was bullied. She was beautiful, so she was bullied by girls when she was playing the ‘dumb’ girl and boys were then attracted to her. It was nonstop. When I turned in girls who stepped into my own class to threaten Phoebe, I never even heard any feedback. I wish I could have saved her. The last day she was in school, she didn’t have my class. Her last walk out to the bus a girl screamed expletives at her just as she was getting on her bus. Then she went home. We will never see her again. All she ever wanted was to go back home to her cows in Ireland. ) Giana Caldieri )

Oh Paladine This tugs at the heartstrings. Thanks for all your posts and everyone elses posts on Phoebe.

OrdinaryLife
04-06-2010, 01:00 PM
I have been spending time reading articles followed by comments made. Frankly, we wonder why verbal abuse/harassment exists? These "adults" going back and forth in ugliness of words. How the he!! are our own children going to learn from us, their educators who are their parents and they trust, when they read what is written???

I have absolutely no issue with anothers opinion that is nowhere close to mine. I may not like it, but it theirs and I respect my thoughts may not be welcome as well. Okay. Fine. However, it seems many have lost (or never learned) what *our* responsibilty is to our own. It's work. It's challenging, to say the least. *But*, our children deserve nothing less. What I have read over the last 24 hours disturbs me. Our children are commitments, not obligations. We are living in a very cold, unempathetic world. That is what has touched me today. :(

Paladine
04-06-2010, 01:20 PM
In a discussion I'm having elsewhere regarding bullying in schools, another poster is saying that it is not the job of schools to teach character, to teach children how to treat others, to discuss morals & ethics with the children. That person states that the responsibility for that lies with the children's home, family, church. And, while I agree that those are important elements in shaping a child's conscience & behavior - I also believe that the larger community can and should step in where those fail.

Anyway - what I'd like to know & figured people here might be able to find out, is whether the bullies, any of them, attended church with their families. Does anyone know how we could find that information?

Funny. I raised my kids in Quebec, Canada. They have a required class called "moral education". Part of the mandate reads...

SOCIALIZE,
in order to learn how to live together better
In a pluralistic society such as ours, schools bring people together. Our schools must not only help students develop a feeling of belonging to the community but also teach them how to "live together." In doing this, they must pay attention to students' concerns about the meaning of life. They must promote the fundamental values of democracy and prepare our youth for their role as responsible citizens. They must likewise prevent exclusion, a phenomenon which jeopardizes the future of too many young people.
Personal Development
All the activities in which students take part in school contribute to their personal development. Values, however, are essentially explored in certain subjects, namely, moral education and religious education. Moral education must include the study of religion as a permanent phenomenon so that students who do not take religious education will have some knowledge of one of the major aspects of human civilization. This is not to say that value-related issues are confined to these subjects. They come up in other areas, such as literature, science, technology, and social studies, and are also part of the cross-curricular learning to be addressed in other disciplines or through school activities. School life and extracurricular activities, for example, provide tremendous opportunities to teach and learn values.
It doesn't have to be religion based, though...they offer "values"-type teaching, moral ed or religious ed......they acknowledge values are an important part of learning. I agree.
http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/reforme/pol_eco/anglais/ecole_a.htm

Muffet
04-06-2010, 01:35 PM
Fox News just covered the story and is gearing up to cover the court appearance for the arraignment. :thumb:

BTW, when listing the kids' names, the reporter said, and "Austin Renaud, from Springfield."

It was probably just a note about where he actually lives, but I wanted to make sure that he still goes to S.Hadley... doesn't he?

Paladine
04-06-2010, 01:40 PM
Fox News just covered the story and is gearing up to cover the court appearance for the arraignment. :thumb:

BTW, when listing the kids' names, the reporter said, and "Austin Renaud, from Springfield."

It was probably just a note about where he actually lives, but I wanted to make sure that he still goes to S.Hadley... doesn't he?
Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I've read he's from Springfield...I don't get Fox but I'm calling my cable provider, as I type. ;)

elle1919
04-06-2010, 01:42 PM
I snipped the link. This page makes me feel mixed emotions. On one hand it's nice to see that there are a number of 'fans', giving this person a 'taste of his own medicine' BUT I also feel two wrongs don't make a right. I hope all of these 'fans' are able to find a better way of working through these emotions and not continue the bullying. KWIM?

I agree 100%, two wrongs don't make a right and that page could very well be reported for doing the same thing that were done to Phoebe. This is not the proper way for people to achieve a measure of justice, however I can understand the outrage behind it, but I don't think it is needed. JMO

Muffet
04-06-2010, 01:55 PM
I snipped the link. This page makes me feel mixed emotions. On one hand it's nice to see that there are a number of 'fans', giving this person a 'taste of his own medicine' BUT I also feel two wrongs don't make a right. I hope all of these 'fans' are able to find a better way of working through these emotions and not continue the bullying. KWIM?

I agree 100%, two wrongs don't make a right and that page could very well be reported for doing the same thing that were done to Phoebe. This is not the proper way for people to achieve a measure of justice, however I can understand the outrage behind it, but I don't think it is needed. JMO

Yeah, I've seen some so bad, I actually pondered if they were put up by the bullies' allies, trying to make martyrs of the bullies and create a backlash against their detractors.

I'm sure that's not the case, but the result will be the same, if they don't rein themselves in.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I've seen some so bad, I actually pondered if they were put up by the bullies' allies, trying to make martyrs of the bullies and create a backlash against their detractors.

I'm sure that's not the case, but the result will be the same, if they don't rein themselves in.

Some have even claimed to be family or friend...with friends like that...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Have Fox on, now! It's on, now..thanks, muffet! :)

ETA: Now..on Obama...back on in a min, they said...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:12 PM
Nightline's covering it!
By now, you've likely seen the tragic story of Phoebe Prince and her suicide's combustible aftermath.

The plan for tonight is a report from Andrea Canning about the case. She's in Massachusetts today as three of the nine suspects charged last week in connection with Prince's bullying death were scheduled for arraignment (though no court appearance is required).

And watch of the video on that report, it's from January.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/nightlinedailyline/2010/04/phoebe-prince-bullying-in-smalltown-mass.html

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:21 PM
Perhaps the saddest part of the whole story, though, is the kids who live in South Hadley that Emily Bazelon from Slate has been interviewing while researching the developing story.

Students told her that while the bullying Prince received was vicious and detrimental, it was considered normal. One girl told Bazelon “a lot of it was normal girl drama” and that the reason Prince was affected so strongly by it was because of her background.
South Hadley should really think about this situation and if they want that type of reputation. They should decide if they want people scared to move there because their children treat each other terribly. The teachers, parents and students should work to fix what is considered normal behavior.
http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/mobile/bullying-like-this-can-t-be-ignored-1.2210764

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:27 PM
They've been arraigned..."Teens accused of bullying get day in court"

Updated: April 6, 2010 02:21 PM EDT

The three have agreed to voluntarily report to have police officially book them by Friday, while a condition of their release while awaiting trial is that they have no contact with the Prince family.

A Hampshire Superior Court grand jury handed down indictments against the three March 26. The charges are related to the alleged harassment of 15-year-old Prince, an Irish immigrant freshman at the high school, before she took her own life Jan. 14. The prosecution has alleged the bullying lasted from Sept. 1 up until the day she died.

The three teens were not in court Tuesday because their attorneys had filed paperwork allowing them not to be present, however the three will need to be present during future court hearings. They are expected to appear for a hearing in September.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12263690

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:34 PM
This is from GMA, but the producer will be on Nightline, tonight (above post, link)...I wonder if they will put pressure on the school in their report, tonight...

"Alleged Teen Bullies in Phoebe Prince Case to Be Arraigned: 'What About the Adults?'
Prince Family Says South Hadley School Officials Were Aware of Bullying"
A friend and spokeswoman for the family of Phoebe Prince, who committed suicide in January, said officials at her Massachusetts high school should be held accountable for her death because they knew she was being bullied.
"You've got a number of kids who've been charged with severe charges; what about the adults that supervised the school?" Darby O'Brien said today on "Good Morning America."
O'Brien said school superintendent Gus Sayer, school committee chairman Edward Boisselle and principal Dan Smith "are clueless and they've been clueless since the beginning."
Bravo, Mr. O'Brien!
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/students-phoebe-prince-bullying-case-arraigned-massachusetts-family/story?id=10292667

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 02:46 PM
http://fistfree.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/lessons-from-school-bullying-1-what-bullying-is-and-what-stops-us-from-seeing-it/


Why haven’t the schools recognized what was going on? Because we have some misconceptions, some misleading ideas about bullying.

First, we think of bullying as being done by children in the playground, that bullying is childish. This hinders our ability to see the dangers in bullying. ”Oh, it’s just name-calling. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.” ”It’s just a childish game; it’s not serious.” It’s not a game, and it is serious.

Next, we don’t think it’s bullying until someone gets hit. We ignore the devastating and damaging effects that verbal abuse and verbal violence have.

We think of bullies as thugs, big ugly brutes that beat people up. In an April 5th, 2010 online article in USA Today, Rich Hampson writes, “Educational psychologists describe a new kind of bullying. The perpetrators are attractive, athletic and academically accomplished ….” In other words, if the bully isn’t ugly, unathletic, getting poor grades and has few friends, what they say and do won’t be recognized as bullying, as excessive or unnecessary intentionally aggressive behaviour.

Bullying is about behaviour, not whose behaviour it is. We don’t need to look for the bullies; we need to recognize that what they’re doing is bullying. Again, my definition:

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:46 PM
"State Representative John Scibak, who represents the western Massachusetts town, said he believed there should be disciplinary action taken against school officials.
"I think if people knew about it and did not report it, this is a very serious allegation and one that really needs to be investigated," Scibak said.
From the GMA link...I like this guy...
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/phoebe-prince-suicide-parents-outraged-school-officials-charged/story?id=10237650

Paladine
04-06-2010, 02:53 PM
I'm thinking this may have been worse than "bullying", as we know it. I've read rumors of many things...some, very ugly...and these are repeated in different places, early on, when media wasn't all over...that last day may have been more intense than we know.

Now, with court today...would more info have been revealed? Is the indictment online, in full, anyone know? Would the DA have said anything more, today? Or was it simply entering pleas? And does anyone know if we'll have cameras in court? What's MA like, in that regard?

As I said...me and US law...;)

elle1919
04-06-2010, 03:11 PM
What network is nightline on again? That is one I don't normally watch. TIA

Paladine
04-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Sharon Chanon Valesquez is photo editor for the school. Run4chocolate has info in the comments, on this link. Under "Staff" is Sharon Chanon Valesquez...
"On the South Hadley Student Newspaper website, if you click on STAFF at the upper left, and then scroll through the students, is that a photo of Sharon Chanon Valesquez?
"Yes it is, she is photo editor, if you click on the information to the top right of photo you will see her name.
the newsletter is linked from the blog...read comments for info, here...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/south-hadley-substitute-teacher-says-they-knew/

Paladine
04-06-2010, 03:30 PM
What network is nightline on again? That is one I don't normally watch. TIA
ABC...around 11:30-ish est...

lonetraveler
04-06-2010, 03:37 PM
In the past two years those of us who are avid News hounds have been exposed to all sorts of atrocious beatings, torture, gang rape ending in permanent disfiguring injuries, permanent disabling physical injuries, and many fatalities, all as a result of the “pack mentality’ of bullying. It is well past time to do something about it. The victims of bullying suffer horribly, many for the rest of their lives. Many take their own lives just to escape the merciless torture from the bullying. As I just stated, it is high time to stop ignoring the bullying. It is high time that these cruel bullies are held responsible for their words and actions against another human being. It is a total disgrace that adults have chosen to turn the other way when it comes to young people tormenting and hurting other young people. It is not going to go away, it will only get worse. I don’t care if the bullies are from wealthy families, are attractive, athletic or gifted in any other way; they must pay for the damage that they have caused. There have been way too many children hurt or killed because adults would not take on the responsibility to stop the bullying. These students should be held accountable and should receive the harshest sentence possible. You have to start sometime, somewhere and it might as well be now. Stop the harassing, raping, beating, burning; stop all bullying. Write a law if needed to make bullying the crime it is. It is never too late to save a child’s life. These bullies do not grow up to be good people. They continue to be the bullies that they are and continue to abuse people until they are stopped.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 03:51 PM
In the past two years those of us who are avid News hounds have been exposed to all sorts of atrocious beatings, torture, gang rape ending in permanent disfiguring injuries, permanent disabling physical injuries, and many fatalities, all as a result of the “pack mentality’ of bullying. It is well past time to do something about it. The victims of bullying suffer horribly, many for the rest of their lives. Many take their own lives just to escape the merciless torture from the bullying. As I just stated, it is high time to stop ignoring the bullying. It is high time that these cruel bullies are held responsible for their words and actions against another human being. It is a total disgrace that adults have chosen to turn the other way when it comes to young people tormenting and hurting other young people. It is not going to go away, it will only get worse. I don’t care if the bullies are from wealthy families, are attractive, athletic or gifted in any other way; they must pay for the damage that they have caused. There have been way too many children hurt or killed because adults would not take on the responsibility to stop the bullying. These students should be held accountable and should receive the harshest sentence possible. You have to start sometime, somewhere and it might as well be now. Stop the harassing, raping, beating, burning; stop all bullying. Write a law if needed to make bullying the crime it is. It is never too late to save a child’s life. These bullies do not grow up to be good people. They continue to be the bullies that they are and continue to abuse people until they are stopped.
Excellent post!

Paladine
04-06-2010, 03:56 PM
perspectiive...
"School bullying activist: I know the terror Phoebe felt" By Jodee Blanco, Special to CNN
"I know what Phoebe felt as she walked the halls as a freshman at a Massachusetts school, listening to the jeers and whispers, praying she could make it to homeroom or math class in one piece.

I know the terror that descended over her like a dark cloak every time the bell rang, signaling the beginning of the school day. And I also know that as much as she must have hated her classmates for what they were putting her through, it was what they were denying her that hurt even worse: someone to sit with at lunch, the invitations to hang out on weekends and after school, the girl talk and giggles exchanged between trusted friends, the simple joy of fitting in. Before long, it pokes holes in your soul, and you can feel self-loathing start to fill in those empty spaces.

I know because, from fifth grade through high school, I was the target of relentless bullying for much the same reason Phoebe and so many other students are: simply for being "different."
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/31/blanco.phoebe.bullying/index.html

Muffet
04-06-2010, 04:01 PM
I'm thinking this may have been worse than "bullying", as we know it. I've read rumors of many things...some, very ugly...and these are repeated in different places, early on, when media wasn't all over...that last day may have been more intense than we know.
-snip-

ITA. I just posted my thoughts in the bullying poll about how "not all bullying is equal."

It's just been getting to me, seeing all these posts on other sites and blogs from people acting like the common bullying they and so many others endured (and came out of a stronger and better person from! :rolleyes:) was anything like the things these poor kids like Phoebe and others have had to deal with, thus these kids are just weak, or we're rearing a generation of wusses. :no:

Paladine
04-06-2010, 04:17 PM
ITA. I just posted my thoughts in the bullying poll about how "not all bullying is equal."

It's just been getting to me, seeing all these posts on other sites and blogs from people acting like the common bullying they and so many others endured (and came out of a stronger and better person from! :rolleyes:) was anything like the things these poor kids like Phoebe and others have had to deal with, thus these kids are just weak, or we're rearing a generation of wusses. :no:

I know the feeling. I've felt the same frustration reading the blogs. How can someone be against promoting kids being kind to each other? I think it's great people have overcome the adversity of being harassed at school. I also think it's great when other crime victims overcome...but that doesn't justify the crime. It doesn't make us all stonger...it weakens many, and, imo...it's soul destroying. We should be promoting each others spiritual growth...not hindering it. I want a system where the weakest among us feel safe.

IMO

Muffet
04-06-2010, 04:35 PM
I just read this on run4chocolate:

[ed note: too early to speculate, but I suspect that most will be sent home on probation until they are 18. The guys will be treated differently because of the alleged sexual component to their charges. Mulveyhill, imho, as a non-1st offender, will face the only actual jail time but even that is not assured. He should enlist in the military and redeem himself the old fashioned way thru service to his country. ]

Interesting... Do you know what Sean Mulveyhill's other offense was?

(Also, Austin Renaud is already 18, so he might get hit just as hard, even if it was his first offense.)

Paladine
04-06-2010, 05:24 PM
I just read this on run4chocolate:

[ed note: too early to speculate, but I suspect that most will be sent home on probation until they are 18. The guys will be treated differently because of the alleged sexual component to their charges. Mulveyhill, imho, as a non-1st offender, will face the only actual jail time but even that is not assured. He should enlist in the military and redeem himself the old fashioned way thru service to his country. ]

Interesting... Do you know what Sean Mulveyhill's other offense was?

(Also, Austin Renaud is already 18, so he might get hit just as hard, even if it was his first offense.)
I read it was shoplifting on that same blog...posted in comments, by the editor. I'm not sure what sauerkraut's (sp?) source is for that, though...but the blog has been bang on, thus far...imo.

MaureenN
04-06-2010, 05:24 PM
I just read this on run4chocolate:

[ed note: too early to speculate, but I suspect that most will be sent home on probation until they are 18. The guys will be treated differently because of the alleged sexual component to their charges. Mulveyhill, imho, as a non-1st offender, will face the only actual jail time but even that is not assured. He should enlist in the military and redeem himself the old fashioned way thru service to his country. ]

Interesting... Do you know what Sean Mulveyhill's other offense was?

(Also, Austin Renaud is already 18, so he might get hit just as hard, even if it was his first offense.)

I believe that Mulveyhill's other offense was shoplifting (read that somewhere today, but can't remember where...)

Paladine
04-06-2010, 05:46 PM
This AP link has photos of the proceedings, today. I didn't attach them because they are AP photos...copywrite, I'm thinking? If I'm incorrect, feel free to attach.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jtSfPUlJn7oUv4nT-KF2Kqs7J6mQD9ETQ7AO0


ETA link to photos...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slideshow/ALeqM5jtSfPUlJn7oUv4nT-KF2Kqs7J6mQD9ETQ7AO0?index=1
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slideshow/ALeqM5jtSfPUlJn7oUv4nT-KF2Kqs7J6mQD9ETQ7AO0?index=0

Paladine
04-06-2010, 05:56 PM
A few thoughts, just a "maybe" post, please bear with me...anybody else ever think like this?

Maybe the school was between a rock and a hard place. Maybe after Phoebe's death, the parents were told about the behavior. But maybe the school never called and warned or informed the parents, previously? Maybe the parents said, "Expell my kid and I'LL sue, YOU never notified me." Maybe no warnings to stop were ever even given to some of the kids. So, maybe the school made a deal. Maybe the deal was let the kids transfer and we won't sue. Don't expell.

Just some ideas...

NOT excusing the school...but my point is, if this proves to be true...IMO, it would tell me, even after death, they sold Phoebe out to cover their own a**es...and the fact that they didn't do their job to protect the bullies from themselves, either.

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 06:07 PM
Just guessing here...I'm thinking little was done because these were perceived as "good kids." The Football captain, school photographer, hockey/lacrosse star.

When you assume "goodness" , you tend to downplay bullying to "relationship problems"...something that they saw as normal, no big deal.

To them, no real harm could come from these "good kids"...so the onus was on Phoebe to just put up with it.

If instead the Bullies had been some druggie crowd, someone the principal and teachers looked down on...ahh...then, Phoebe would have had intervention on her behalf.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 06:08 PM
Just guessing here...I'm thinking little was done because these were perceived as "good kids." The Football captain, school photographer, hockey/lacrosse star.

When you assume "goodness" , you tend to downplay bullying to "relationship problems"...something that they saw as normal, no big deal.

To them, no real harm could come from these "good kids"...so the onus was on Phoebe to just put up with it.

If instead the Bullies had been some druggie crowd, someone the principal and teachers looked down on...ahh...then, Phoebe would have had intervention on her behalf.
My thoughts, exactly. I feel like she was seen as expendable, inconsequential. They weren't.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 06:14 PM
"The arraignment briefly woke up Northampton, a low-key area of Massachusetts that people from Boston love to imagine moving to. The setting for the proceedings, which lasted about three minutes, was lovely: an old-fashioned, high-ceilinged courtroom with wood benches for the spectators, a mural on the concave center of the ceiling, and a large chandelier. A phalanx of TV reporters had to crowd in the hallway. The benches inside were mostly full of print reporters and South Hadley residents—the ones behind me were chatting about next year's high-school football season."
http://www.slate.com/id/2249957/

Paladine
04-06-2010, 06:17 PM
"Friends said the group became jealous of Prince, who had recently moved from Ireland and reportedly dated both male suspects.

"She was new. She was pretty. She was dating the football player, and his girlfriend got jealous," Prince's friend T. B. said.

The 10-week investigation included recorded and written statements, along with computer evidence.

This seems to be about jealousy. Harassment, stalking, was the way to vent the jealousy. This isn't simple "bullying", to me...it surpassed that. It's a love triangle, or 2, with a gang of enforcers with a sadistic twist, imo.
http://www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=12265925

raeann
04-06-2010, 06:32 PM
Just guessing here...I'm thinking little was done because these were perceived as "good kids." The Football captain, school photographer, hockey/lacrosse star.

When you assume "goodness" , you tend to downplay bullying to "relationship problems"...something that they saw as normal, no big deal.

To them, no real harm could come from these "good kids"...so the onus was on Phoebe to just put up with it.

If instead the Bullies had been some druggie crowd, someone the principal and teachers looked down on...ahh...then, Phoebe would have had intervention on her behalf.


I agree that this pre-conception regarding these kids played a large part in the way it was handled. If the attackers had been "outsiders" themselves, they would have immediately been under the scrutiny of administration. For example, if the abusers had been black, hispanic, or "emo" kids......the response would have been completely different. LIKEWISE....had Phoebe been a new student from Asia, Africa, or the Middle East, the attention to stopping the attacks would have been swift and severe. FWIW, this is why we should place a high value on equal treatment of all. One can never assume that the pretty white girl could not possibly be a victim of prejudice.

jmoo

Paladine
04-06-2010, 06:34 PM
great point, raeann!

Boyz_Mum
04-06-2010, 07:38 PM
In a discussion I'm having elsewhere regarding bullying in schools, another poster is saying that it is not the job of schools to teach character, to teach children how to treat others, to discuss morals & ethics with the children. That person states that the responsibility for that lies with the children's home, family, church. And, while I agree that those are important elements in shaping a child's conscience & behavior - I also believe that the larger community can and should step in where those fail.

Anyway - what I'd like to know & figured people here might be able to find out, is whether the bullies, any of them, attended church with their families. Does anyone know how we could find that information?

You know, I am not sure if I feel it's the school's 'job' to teach our children how to treat others BUT if children don't come from their homes at the pre-school age knowing what's acceptable behavior, I do feel the job falls to the school. IMO it's the school's responsibility to have rules that teach children (and teens) to be a part of a society and if they haven't been taught these skills at home than the school should punish the inappropriate behavior. I feel respect for another human is part of living within a society.

We've taught our children appropriate behavior at home and if the school knows they step out of line, IMO, the children deserve the punishment the school determines fitting and then they will be punished again at home. We aren't crazy strict but a few weeks away from whatever they love the most seems to help us keep them in line. I need the school to reinforce what we've taught at home as the children spend half their day there. I'd much rather they learn at home or at school than have them spend a day in court because we all failed them.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, it's not pointed toward you or your opinion. I do get annoyed by people who feel that the school has no 'responsibility' in this very important aspect of living in a normal society.

I don't know if these kids attended church, I got all caught up in the first part of your post. :blushing: I don't know if church makes a difference in a person's bullying behavior. We even had a 'mean girls' clique in Catechism.

All the above is JMO.

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 07:47 PM
I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.

jjenny
04-06-2010, 07:55 PM
I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.
Yes of course the idea is to create a safe learning environment. I am sure teachers would all like to have a safe learning environment.
Unfortunately some of the students might have other ideas sometimes.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 07:58 PM
I believe it's the school's job to create a safe and productive learning environment. IMO, that means requiring certain standards of behavior and enforcing them.

You can't do surgery in an operating room where the nurses are dancing to their Ipods and the anesthesiologist is eating pizza. A certain environment is CRUCIAL, not optional to doing the job.

Teachers cannot teach effectively nor students LEARN...if kids fear walking in halls, if kids step into a class in session and yell profanities. Sorry, allowing bullying behavior makes for a substandard school.

They have to enforce certain standards of civility and certain required conduct. No teacher can do their job properly without a proper ENFORCED civil learning enviorment for students.
It's hard to concentrate and absorb when a person feels threatened, imo.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 08:01 PM
We need to show children we value their emotional wellbeing as much as their physical wellbeing. That a spirit can be "battered", too...not just the physical body. IMO

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 08:05 PM
It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it that a safe environment exists, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have. That is a key part of their profession.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 08:06 PM
It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.
I agree. If they can't control the kids, expell or find a new job. No more excuses.

jjenny
04-06-2010, 08:06 PM
It is the responsibility of the PAID PROFESSIONAL to see to it, no matter what "ideas" minor children may have.

"In locos parentis."

The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent,"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.

In loco parentis means “in place of parent.” The in loco parentis legal doctrine can be applied to both governmental and non-governmental entities, and is implicated “when a person [or legal entity] undertakes the care and control of another [person of legal incapacity] in the absence of such supervision by the latter’s natural parents and in the absence of formal legal approval.” Black’s Law Dictionary 787 (6th Ed. 1990)(quoting Griego v. Hogan, 377 P.2d 953, 955-56 (N.M. 1963)). The doctrine most commonly applies to minors, but can apply in other contexts, such as adult-age persons who are suffering from permanent and severe medical incapacity.

Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 08:08 PM
Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

Yes, I have. Junior High school and later high school English. Both in lower middle class "tough" areas.

jjenny
04-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Yes, I have. Junior High school and later high school English. Both in lower middle class "tough" areas.

How did that go? Did they all behave?

Paladine
04-06-2010, 08:11 PM
Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

I haven't. Not that you were asking me...lol...;)

I agree it's a tough job. And kids can get out of hand, we see it here, in this case and in many others. I'm saying, let's change it. Let's demand accountability from all. Change what's "acceptable", the "norm". If the majority deems it, it will be done, imo.

raeann
04-06-2010, 08:28 PM
Right. Have you ever tried teaching?

Yes, I have worked as a special services professional in at least a dozen different schools. These have included private upperclass schools and the lowest of low income schools in two different states and four different cities. NEVER, ever, have I seen this type of behavior allowed or condoned. The FIRST time that someone lays a hand on another student or any type of projectile weapon is used to attack another student--immediate suspension has been enforced. A second incident REQUIRED an extended term of suspension, and depending on the history of their prior behavior, they could be transferred into an alternative school, placed on home schooling or expelled from that school jurisdiction completely. There are processes of hearings that such students are allowed, so there is a way to review any decisions made regarding this, thus allowing them more than a fair turn to state their case.

FWIW...I am not saying that this eliminated all bullying behaviors....but knowing that there WERE consequences and that they would be enforced did work! The victim feels that they have recourse and that their complaints will be heard....that alone can prevent an outcome like this one.


ALSO, none of those schools ever had a suicide or even an on-campus injury due to bullying.

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 08:33 PM
I loved it.

You start out tough and set standards.

You ENFORCE THEM.

But you respect them...never humiliate them. But you are NOT a friend. They come to know you like them, but you will NOT accept UNACCEPTABLE behavior.

If you make a rule, enforce it. Be predictable.

I always try to find one thing special about every kid. Something you can honestly praise them for. It's always there, if you look. Even the "bad" kids are hungry for praise...if it's sincere. This takes time and effort but IMO, it's acrucial part of the job.

You have no idea how simple class discipline is...when the "tough" kids are on your side. Show respect, compassion, but demand it back.

Works for me.

jjenny
04-06-2010, 08:36 PM
As I understand it, the incident with the alleged energy drink bottle throwing (which the DA thinks is a "deadly weapon") occurred right before the suicide and after school, so I would guess the school was not informed about it to even take any actions before the suicide. What is it that they knew but did not do?

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 08:39 PM
As I understand it, the incident with the alleged energy drink bottle throwing (which the DA thinks is a "deadly weapon") occurred right before the suicide and after school, so I would guess the school was not informed about it to even take any actions before the suicide. What is it that they knew but did not do?

With respect, I must refer you to the many, many links posted here...with such kind effort by Paladine. Please read the links. They contain a great deal of information about Phoebe's ordeal at school, both on the last day and in the months before.

You will get all the information you need if you review the links.

raeann
04-06-2010, 08:41 PM
How did that go? Did they all behave?

There is a very BIG difference in misbehaving and stalking, shoving heads into walls, throwing objects, and screaming profane and derogatory remarks. Sending hundreds of texts and e mails that threaten to harm the recipient, following them home and hurling objects from cars---this is not considered "mis-behaving" by any rational person.

NO....all students don't behave! They talk in class, they get out of their seats, they ask to use the restroom and take 20 minutes to do so. They laugh when another student gives a wrong answer, or trips over their own feet. They make a loud "ooooh" in unison if someone gets called to the office. They "forget" that they had homework, they sleep late and come into class with a tardy slip, and they break the dress code rules. These are all behavior problems that get dealt with in various ways.

BUT, that is not what these abusers were doing. In other words, a prosecutor, a grand jury, and now a judge have all agreed that the actions in this case meet the level of criminal behavior. Since I have not seen the videos, witness statements, and electronic media evidence.....I must trust the judgement of those professionals and the objective citizens on the grand jury.

jmoo

jjenny
04-06-2010, 08:49 PM
With respect, I must refer you to the many, many links posted here...with such kind effort by Paladine. Please read the links. They contain a great deal of information about Phoebe's ordeal at school, both on the last day and in the months before.

You will get all the information you need if you review the links.

With all due respect, those links contain contradictory information. The school denies knowing about it, prosecutor says they knew. What the school knew of, they said they took action.

raeann
04-06-2010, 09:00 PM
With all due respect, those links contain contradictory information. The school denies knowing about it, prosecutor says they knew. What the school knew of, they said they took action.

Yes, there are at least two administrators who are denying that they knew about it....HOWEVER, so far I have seen statements made by one substitute teacher, one current teacher, and another report that a teacher in the library confirmed that incident to administration. We have heard numerous witnesses interviewed who confirm that teachers and principal knew. We have heard the family statement that they reported to school officials. Even the principal referred to the cafeteria incident and one or two others, although as you say....he also denies knowing anything.

jmoo

OrdinaryLife
04-06-2010, 09:05 PM
As in all cases (that I am aware of in the great spectrum of life) there is always two sides of a "story". Read all links provided and take in as we all have. Google is also our friend for other media info. Your conclusion/opinion is yours when all has been taken in.

stmarysmead
04-06-2010, 09:09 PM
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spokesman-for-phoebe-prince-s-family-school-is-clueless

Spokesman for Prince family speaks.

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:18 PM
From February/10

"It is understood that the records sought by police include one Facebook discussion group entitled 'We murdered Phoebe Prince'. It is believed that two other Facebook discussion groups will also be examined to establish the nature of the comments posted online.
A grand jury subpoena, dated 9 February, also allows for records relating to Craigslist and Microsoft to be examined.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/feb/21/facebook-to-be-probed-in-schoolgirl-suicide/

jjenny
04-06-2010, 09:27 PM
From February/10


http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/feb/21/facebook-to-be-probed-in-schoolgirl-suicide/

Do they really think any of the actual students involved posted on that facebook? What is that all about?

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:37 PM
Do they really think any of the actual students involved posted on that facebook? What is that all about?
I've read rumor on blogs the bullies set it up...maybe as a sarcastic response to being blamed? More sinisterly, maybe to gloat. I know no confirmed specifics I can back with a link...I'm hoping someone will email/pm me one...Anyone? You out there? ;)

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:44 PM
O'Brien on Joy Behar, now...

jjenny
04-06-2010, 09:45 PM
I've read rumor on blogs the bullies set it up...maybe as a sarcastic response to being blamed? More sinisterly, maybe to gloat. I know no confirmed specifics I can back with a link...I'm hoping someone will email/pm me one...Anyone? You out there? ;)

Does anyone know what was posted?

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:52 PM
From Joy Behar,

Darby O'Brien: Eileen, Phoebe's Aunt, met with school vice principal said Phoebe was suseptible to bullying and asked to meet a counselor, Phoebe saw a counselor 3 months later. Phoebe's Mother went to the school in in early November and (she went back again January, I think, he was cut off midway through.)

He also mentioned the subsitute teacher knowing and her mentioning if the school didn't know, they're incompetent, he said.

He mentioned the bullies family and supporters should also be angry at school officials, "10 lives are forever changed." or "changed forever"...;)

"They've been running for cover since the fall..." -Darby O'Brien on school officials
from my recollection...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:56 PM
Joy Behar: O'Brien said they only punished 1 student...who was expelled for 1 day. wow...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 09:57 PM
Does anyone know what was posted?
I don't. But they might know on run4chocolate, post and ask, maybe...

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:02 PM
link to principals letter to parents from February...
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Copy_of_prinicpal-writes-about-phoebes-death

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:07 PM
"S. Hadley resource officer questioned
Residents wonder if he reported alleged bullying"

"We asked South Hadley’s Police Chief Dave Labrie what a resource officer does. He said "The resource officer is the liaison between the police, the courts, and the schools. So he has a few different functions interacting with families, interacting with families and the courts."

22News found Todd Dineen off school property on Wednesday while our crew was responding to a fire. Chief Labrie said he was attending to a school matter. When 22News asked Dineen if he knew about the alleged bullying of Phoebe Prince, he said "no comment."

But, Paul Mihalak, a resident of South Hadley, says "I'd like to know what he knew... if he did anything." Some residents say they have a right to know because he’s paid by tax dollars through the school department and the police department.

Chief Labrie and the district attorney’s office both would not tell us whether Todd Dineen reported the harassment of Phoebe Prince to authorities."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/s-hadley-resource-officer-questioned

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:08 PM
resource officers profile
"The School Resource Officer's duties extend far beyond the classroom and normal work day. The officer participates in PTA and faculty meetings, club projects, student social functions and sporting events. The SRO’s presence demonstrates the officer's commitment to the students and tends to strengthen the student/police bond. This also demonstrates the police department's willingness to go beyond the normal tour of duty for the safety and interest of the students.
http://www.southhadley.org/pages/SouthHadleyMA_Police/school?textPage=1

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:21 PM
names of South Hadley police detectives...
http://www.southhadley.org/pages/SouthHadleyMA_Police/bureau?textPage=1

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:31 PM
curious and thought I'd check on that Sean Mulveyhill link, the one I saw all comments deleted from, and I had posted asking where the comments went....guess what? My comment was deleted, too...lol...and I did not violate terms of service...really, I didn't. ;)
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Who-is-Sean-Mulveyhill%3F#idc-cover

Paladine
04-06-2010, 10:36 PM
from a couple of days ago...
Darby O’Brien, a friend of the Prince family, told 22News that he feels Superintendent Gus Sayer has been trying to sweep this scandal under the rug. He said "Gus Sayer said to me in his office that the Prince family had never made any comments or complaints at the high school, which is not true. That happened at least twice."

We visited the Superintendent’s office. They said Sayer is out of town. He never returned our phone calls or responded to our messages.

Darby O'Brien said "Gus Sayer’s contract is up for review on May 1st. There’s no way he should be coming back. The high school principal who oversaw all of it should not be in that spot either."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/friend-of-prince-family-speaks-out

adnoid
04-06-2010, 10:52 PM
As in all cases (that I am aware of in the great spectrum of life) there is always two sides of a "story"...

We should have some sort of system where, say, a panel of people hear both sides and determines who they think is lying. That could help.

OrdinaryLife
04-06-2010, 11:08 PM
We should have some sort of system where, say, a panel of people hear both sides and determines who they think is lying. That could help.

Now, there's a wild and crazy idea. Leave it to you to think outside the box. I wonder if it'll catch on....

Paladine
04-06-2010, 11:13 PM
Sayer said the second group of students conspired to repeatedly harass and humiliate the girl and that neither Phoebe, her family nor other students reported the bullying prior to her death.

O'Brien's information, provided in the links from earlier today, prove this (bolded) is not true. He said family went to the school or contacted the school, 2 or 3 times...my hearing failed while he was speaking about the possible 3rd...
http://www.eagletribune.com/punews/local_story_072201920.html/resources_etp_mobile_story

Paladine
04-06-2010, 11:26 PM
Video Interview, I can't watch it right now, unsure of details...
"South Hadley Superintendent responds to questions about school climate"
"In an in-depth interview with NECN's Beth Shelburne, South Hadley Superintendent Gus Sayer says it's tragic that a student has died, and that others are facing criminal charges. He says he hopes many of the questions about what happened will be answered through the court proceedings.

NECN has obtained an internal survey of middle school teachers in South Hadley that indicates there are major problems in the school system.

64-percent of the teachers surveyed feared retaliation by the administration.

NECN's Beth Shelburne asked Superintendent Sayer about the survey today.
http://www.necn.com/04/06/10/South-Hadley-Superintendent-responds-to-/landing_business.html?blockID=211246&feedID=4206

Paladine
04-06-2010, 11:35 PM
Meanwhile a former student said bullying was one of the reasons why she left South Hadley. She said part of the culture at the school is of aggressive girls willing to physically attack other girls.

K. R. G., 17, said she moved to Framingham and now attends Framingham High School.

G. said while still in South Hadley High School she was assaulted in a hallway by another girl. She was also subjected to slurs on her character and name-calling
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/phoebe_prince_suicide_off-limi.html

Paladine
04-06-2010, 11:40 PM
South Hadley High has an exchange program to Ireland planned for April/2011...
here's the FB group page...
South Hadley High School Trip to Ireland, London, Wales Category:Student Groups - Abroad/Overseas GroupsDescription:April 2011 Cultural Exchange TripPrivacy Type:Open: All content is public.
Ironic. I wonder how many Irish families want to send their kids to SHHS, at this point...
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=182375230140#!/group.php?v=info&gid=182375230140

Paladine
04-07-2010, 12:24 AM
Darby O'Brien's comments...reported by the Boston Herald...
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1245227&srvc=rss