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Tricia
02-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Hi All,

One of my sources just told me that Josh was spotted buying a very large amount of shrink wrap a few days before Susan went missing.

I have a huge role of shrink wrap. It's just plain plastic and I think if you heat it it will shrink. I think.

I use it to wrap Websleuths t-shirts in and such but I don't ever heat it.

Think a huge role of Saran Wrap.

One thing we need to remember is the person who said they saw Josh buying the wrap could be mistaken.

We can't take this as gospel unless it is confirmed by the police.

mysticrose
02-05-2010, 01:25 PM
Whoa really Trica, OMgosh that is a horrible thought that I just had. What could Josh need with a big roll of shrink wrap ? :waitasec: I wonder if police found that roll and how much was missing ....
That man needs to be arrested like yesterday !!!

mysticrose
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink_wrap

Tricia
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
What would be good to know is how much is left on the wrap.

Of course he will say it was for something innocent but what would that be?

I think this is a very well thought out plan on his part.

Even if the shrink wrap was not used in Susan's disappearance he would still have to explain why he bought it. If he said because he was moving that won't work. He bought it before Susan went missing. Before he thought about moving.

Tricia
02-05-2010, 01:37 PM
I added this to my first post;

One thing we need to remember is the person who said they saw Josh buying the wrap could be mistaken.

We can't take this as gospel unless it is confirmed by the police

Please just keep this in your mind as you discuss the case.

nomad
02-05-2010, 01:39 PM
That's a new one...how would he justify the purchase of an industrial size roll of shrink wrap...is the roll MIA?

Tricia
02-05-2010, 01:49 PM
That's a new one...how would he justify the purchase of an industrial size roll of shrink wrap...is the roll MIA?

No idea. Just so there is no mistake. I was told it was a LARGE roll. Whatever that means. Not industrial. But it could be.

Here is the thing, even if he said he used it for the move he bought it BEFORE the move was even a thought.

If true, this could be very damming.

passionflower
02-05-2010, 02:00 PM
It can be bought at home building suppliers, for covering windows etc.
We bought some to winterize my mothers huge glass sliding door.
All you do is unwrap it..............hold it by the corners (took 4 of us...to hold it up....LOL) an heat seal with a blow dryer.
He would just have just rolled it on floor, rolled Susan on it and wrap her up and heat it with a blow dryer.
Like a package...............how awful to even think of it!

passionflower
02-05-2010, 02:02 PM
oh and 1 more thought.
Mom's shrink wrap was clear and not real heavy.
I had my boat shrink wrapped for storage and the
boat company used a very heavy blue tarp like shrink wrap?????

gwenabob
02-05-2010, 02:12 PM
I'm thinking this could actually be a good thing. If she were all sealed up in plastic, there would be less decomposition, and less likelihood of animals getting to her. The downside is it would be harder for cadaver dogs to find her as well.

If I were the murdering/hiding type, I think I would skip the flavorpac and toss the body where the elements and animals would get rid of the evidence fast.

But we all know Josh is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

If it is true about the shrink wrapping, then there is no doubt this was a pre-planned murder. Which also shows how stupid he is. All this planning and this is the best alibi he could come up with?

Gin
02-05-2010, 02:24 PM
Speculation-nothing to base this on but:

1. I googled through a few places, and found that it's easy to grab a roll of
Professional Plastic Food Wrap Film-12" x 3000' at Sam's Club.
It's less than $15.00

2. There is another size that is wider: Professional Plastic Food Wrap Film-18" x 3000'

3. I realize these are plastic wrap. If he was obtaining SHRINK WRAP, we'd probably need to look to crafters supplies, or business (like baskets) supplies.
I don't think he'd have a problem obtaining these kind of products, Utah is huge in crafting and DIY. If the source was in a place that sold actual very large rolls of shrink wrap, then I think their info is probably great. Next step, would be making sure the purchaser was Josh.

4. Do some people use the words shrink wrap and plastic wrap interchangeably?

PickieChickie
02-05-2010, 02:24 PM
Hi All,

One of my sources just told me that Josh was spotted buying a very large amount of shrink wrap a few days before Susan went missing.

I have a huge role of shrink wrap. It's just plain plastic and I think if you heat it it will shrink. I think.

I use it to wrap Websleuths t-shirts in and such but I don't ever heat it.

Think a huge role of Saran Wrap.

One thing we need to remember is the person who said they saw Josh buying the wrap could be mistaken.

We can't take this as gospel unless it is confirmed by the police.

Will you please ask your source where he was seen, how wide the roll was and how many linear feet were on the roll? Can you ask this person to go back to the store to locate the exact roll he purchased, find the identical product online so you can save an image of it to post here with a link to the item? Also, can you try to find out if the person witnessed the actual transaction and if so, did JP pay cash, write a check or use a credit card. Also, did they notice other items he purchased? Do they remember the particular clerk? If so, can they go talk to that person to ask them these questions if they don't know? Thank you!

GannyP
02-05-2010, 02:26 PM
We have learned how fastidious Josh is, so wrapping her would probably be an appealing way to dispose of her body. That way he would not have to keep touching death.

Dr.Fessel
02-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Any of the movers remember any shrink wrap?

passionflower
02-05-2010, 02:35 PM
Could the heat from a blowdryer explain the redness of his hands that we thought was frost bitten???
were the hands actually scorched?

Gin
02-05-2010, 02:37 PM
Any of the movers remember any shrink wrap?
Good question. You also jogged my memory about something else.
I can tell you two men and a truck in Utah use plastic wrap...a quick search found this:
http://www.ultimatemovingsupplies.com/store-products-MA0105-Shrink-Wrap--18-inch_42173375.html

The way it's used in the photo is exactly how 2 men used it on my stuff.
It's interesting to me they use terms shrink/stretch interchangeably.

I realize the link isn't the source of the stuff, but the picture shows how well wide wrap can hold heavy things together. There are lots packing supply places
in Utah for DIY moves. Much to sleuth in this.

Mesmerized
02-05-2010, 02:47 PM
Advance purchase, shrink wrap? Wowee wow wow.

Admittedly I am one who thinks JP is wholly responsible for Susan's disappearance / demise. Yet I can't quite wrap my head around the idea (no pun intended, I swear) that it could have been pre-meditated. He just hasn't struck me as a plan-ahead type of guy. Perhaps the shrink wrap was purchased for home winterizing but later JP discovered another more sinister uses for it.

Either way, I sure hope they nail him to the wall soon and get those boys to a safer place (physically and emotionally).

PickieChickie
02-05-2010, 03:20 PM
Could the heat from a blowdryer explain the redness of his hands that we thought was frost bitten???
were the hands actually scorched?

I don't think so but he could have been digging in the snow trying to find items he left somewhere in the woods that he didn't want to bring back with him in the van after the camping trip. I am certain he would have felt uncomfortable buying or borrowing gloves, digging tools, etc. after Susan's disappearance for fear of drawing suspicion to himself. Why would a person deliberately expose their hands to the cold to the point the skin was so damaged they had to keep applying lotion to them unless they felt they had no choice! Hands don't get windburn if they are kept inside jacket pockets or sleeves are pulled down over them. And why would he continue to expose them when the pain set in unless he absolutely felt he must continue what he was doing. The red hands are VERY suspicious to me!

RayO
02-05-2010, 03:57 PM
Y'know, leftover s'mores don't make such a mess if you wrap them in plastic.
Hope that helps ;)

PickieChickie
02-05-2010, 04:03 PM
If he did "shrink wrap" Susan's body, he would have needed working room. But that wouldn't explain why the carpet was wet. One would think, if he planned Susan's murder in advance and it involved shrink wrap, he would have used it to wrap around her face when she was sleeping to smother her and that there wouldn't be any blood. However, there is the possibility that he dragged her out into the living room to finish wrapping her and that her bladder or bowels released, thus explaining the reason for the large wet spot resulting from using the carpet cleaner, a cleaner which a reliable source told me they owned for many years.

I really don't think, if he murdered Susan, that it was premeditated due to the strange story he told upon his return from the camping trip. (Perhaps he was gone way longer than he planned and never dreamed he would have to come up with an explanation to anyone about why he was gone from the home. Perhaps he planned on returning and going to work as usual but ran into complications. The fact he took the boys with him indicates to me that Susan was not home to take care of them.)

There is also the possibility that he left so someone else could do the deed when he left to take the boy's sledding at around 5:30. But, nobody reports seeing anyone go to the house during that time.

There is also the possibility that he brought someone back with him when he came back from the sledding trip. However, I would hope the person who interviewed the five-year-old would have asked if someone was with them.

I would think using the shrink wrap in the house to wrap Susan's body would have caused microscopic dust from the shrink wrap to float around the entire house which would have been discovered after the forensics were analyzed. Perhaps nobody told law enforcement about the shrink wrap until very recently and they are in the process of running additional tests.

Regardless, prosecuting someone for murder without a body is not something that is done a lot and is a very risky move on the part of a prosecutor. People keep hollering because JP hasn't been arrested yet while failing to realize that preparing a case, (against a suspect where there is no proof the person they are being charged with murdering is absolutely and without a shadow of a doubt DEAD), is a huge responsibility and risk. We all know that people can't be tried for the same crime twice. The fact JP hasn't been arrested is because Susan's body has not been found, not necessarily because the district attorney doesn't have proof JP murdered Susan. They are waiting in hope that her body will be found, in my opinion.

Gin
02-05-2010, 04:29 PM
I keep thinking it's more possible he was using a wrap or film that sticks to itself well. I'm having a bit of a problem seeing how one could wrap something like a body and then heat the wrap. (I don't think he has industrial packing/heating supplies. That would leave a blow dryer or similar object--and I think it's way too small for this kind of job.) It's too awkward to me. On the other hand, with multiple wraps of firmly applied film support--rolling technique-- even heavy items could be pretty well supported. . J is Mr. Camper, I'm wondering if, once wrapped, he could then maneuverer the wrapped (gosh I hate to think of this) body into something like a tent bag. (Would hide it and support it.) Feel certain LE has looked carefully through his "camping" supplies. Would love to know what, if anything, is missing.

Tricia
02-05-2010, 04:50 PM
Shrink wrap doesn't need to be shrunk. . . Does that make sense?

It's just plastic. I doubt if he actually used it as shrink wrap.

If this is true he used it just for wrapping purposes. IMO

grayjay
02-05-2010, 05:18 PM
Hmmm. Lots of guessing with this. This package he bought could be large because it's a lot of the material on an 18" tube, or large because it's the 36" or 72" width.

If he was going to set things on snow and wanted to keep them dry, or protect items in weather, it would store compactly and serve various purposes. It can be as thin as saran wrap or as thick as a tarp, and the shrink can come from stretching or from heat.

Trident
02-05-2010, 05:39 PM
What would be good to know is how much is left on the wrap.

Of course he will say it was for something innocent but what would that be?

I think this is a very well thought out plan on his part.

Even if the shrink wrap was not used in Susan's disappearance he would still have to explain why he bought it. If he said because he was moving that won't work. He bought it before Susan went missing. Before he thought about moving.

I use shrink wrap to plastic my window in the winter. What I get comes in a kit.

Trident
02-05-2010, 05:41 PM
I keep thinking it's more possible he was using a wrap or film that sticks to itself well. I'm having a bit of a problem seeing how one could wrap something like a body and then heat the wrap. (I don't think he has industrial packing/heating supplies. That would leave a blow dryer or similar object--and I think it's way too small for this kind of job.) It's too awkward to me. On the other hand, with multiple wraps of firmly applied film support--rolling technique-- even heavy items could be pretty well supported. . J is Mr. Camper, I'm wondering if, once wrapped, he could then maneuverer the wrapped (gosh I hate to think of this) body into something like a tent bag. (Would hide it and support it.) Feel certain LE has looked carefully through his "camping" supplies. Would love to know what, if anything, is missing.

A blow dryer does the job very well for my windows, and it's quick.

seekingsusan
02-05-2010, 06:23 PM
This is good news. It could mean that Susan is perfectly preserved and Josh's prints could be all over it. What an idiot!

Savmom
02-05-2010, 06:27 PM
My dh uses shrink wrap & tubing at work and they use FIRE to shrink it (heat gun, torch, lighter, weed burner, anything they can get their hands on) so in theory, he could have gotten the red hands from trying to shrink the "package" with fire.


Y'know, leftover s'mores don't make such a mess if you wrap them in plastic.
Hope that helps

Those must be some HUGE s'mores to need an oversized roll of saran wrap LOL!

nomad
02-05-2010, 06:58 PM
Wouldn't his former place of employment have a handy supply of shrink wrap for shipping?
no point, just thinkin..

PickieChickie
02-05-2010, 07:18 PM
My dh uses shrink wrap & tubing at work and they use FIRE to shrink it (heat gun, torch, lighter, weed burner, anything they can get their hands on) so in theory, he could have gotten the red hands from trying to shrink the "package" with fire.



Those must be some HUGE s'mores to need an oversized roll of saran wrap LOL!

It was reported JP purchased a cutting torch shortly before Susan disappeared. I just don't understand how using a torch would cause both hands to burn as it doesn't take both to hold a torch. One would think he would have one hand in his pocket if he didn't have gloves and was outside in subfreezing temperatures when using it, either to shrink the plastic wrap or cut up open a grate to an abandoned, shut up mine. Unfortunately, we can't ask Tim Peterson if both JP's hands were equally wind burnt or if both sides of his hands were red. Also, the red hands appeared after he rented the car.

One would think he would have used a hair drier if he needed heat to shrink the wrap and was inside the house.

I still wonder if he really brought a generator with him or if he just said that. Or, was the "I needed to test it out" an excuse he came up with, upon returning to a large crowd of curious people, to explain why he had it in the back of his van. Unless he needed it to plug the hair drier into! (That would seem a bit far fetched if you ask me ............ because I would think, like I pointed out, the shrinking would have been done at home!)

Unless he didn't want to use the shrink wrap at home because he wanted out of there ASAP?

This is all so puzzling!

Texas Mist
02-05-2010, 07:48 PM
We use stretch wrap at work at work - and just looking at it, ya wouldn't know the difference between stretch & shrink wrap.

It's very strong--we can put, for example, monitors (heavy CRTs or LCDs) or computers on bread racks, then wrap it all around with the stretch wrap prior to shipping...doesn't require a heat gun....we also can wrap up hundreds of pounds of computers on pallets w/ it.

It's quick and easy to use....I know we buy it locally, just not sure where but I can find out if need be.

Stretch wrap is generally used to hold boxes on a pallet for transport. Stretch wrap is pulled around the load and stretched. The plastic has a memory and wants to return to its original size. This "elastic band effect" holds the load tight.

http://www.allstarsupply.com/stretchwrap101.htm

AlexisFresca
02-05-2010, 08:32 PM
Hi All,

One of my sources just told me that Josh was spotted buying a very large amount of shrink wrap a few days before Susan went missing.

I have a huge role of shrink wrap. It's just plain plastic and I think if you heat it it will shrink. I think.

I use it to wrap Websleuths t-shirts in and such but I don't ever heat it.

Think a huge role of Saran Wrap.

One thing we need to remember is the person who said they saw Josh buying the wrap could be mistaken.

We can't take this as gospel unless it is confirmed by the police.


Shrink wrap is that stuff that's used to wrap stacked boxes on pallets in warehouses before they are stacked in trucks for shipping. Movers also use it also and wrap it around your couches and chairs to keep them clean while in the moving van. You don't need heat for it to work (but I know the stuff your talking about - its different).

When you use the shrink wrap to wrap the pallet, furniture or whatever your shrinkwrapping, you pull it taught as you use it, sort of 'stretching' it was you use it (walking around the object your shrink wrapping) to snugly cover the item your shrinkwrapping. That and you get dizzy quickly, LOL! I would think it would be quite awkward, even used in modification, to try to shrinkwrap a corpse. Not sayin it can't be done, but certainly not easily.

Perhaps the shrinkwrap was what they were trying to hide from the camera's when he emptied the storage shed out back? But you'd also think the police would confiscate that during their initial search warrant.

AlexisFresca
02-05-2010, 08:35 PM
What would be good to know is how much is left on the wrap.

Of course he will say it was for something innocent but what would that be?

I think this is a very well thought out plan on his part.

Even if the shrink wrap was not used in Susan's disappearance he would still have to explain why he bought it. If he said because he was moving that won't work. He bought it before Susan went missing. Before he thought about moving.


If Susan's death was premeditated, and if he did indeed purchase shrink wrap, it may have had everything to do with him moving and not so much to use as a way to cover her for disposal. He could have bought it to cover the furniture. Just sayin'. He may not have been bright enough to realise he could use it on her.

AlexisFresca
02-05-2010, 08:43 PM
Hi All,

One of my sources just told me that Josh was spotted buying a very large amount of shrink wrap a few days before Susan went missing.

I have a huge role of shrink wrap. It's just plain plastic and I think if you heat it it will shrink. I think.

I use it to wrap Websleuths t-shirts in and such but I don't ever heat it.

Think a huge role of Saran Wrap.

One thing we need to remember is the person who said they saw Josh buying the wrap could be mistaken.

We can't take this as gospel unless it is confirmed by the police.


Another thought on this. Perhaps he wanted to move and she didn't want to. If he wanted to move back to Puyallop and she wanted to leave him (but he didn't know that), perhaps that is what the argument was about that night. That or it came out with everything else they were arguing about. He may have planned this (the move) without her knowledge. Again, just a thought. Things then got out of control, there was a struggle and he accidentally killed her. This of course, if a toxicology report shows there was no poison in her system,a nd she did get sick from dinner just for the sake of something non-toxic disagreeing with her.

Karen Anne RN
02-05-2010, 08:52 PM
I really don't think that it was premeditated due to the strange story he told upon his return from the camping trip.

I would think using the shrink wrap in the house.....would have caused microscopic dust from the shrink wrap to float around the entire house which would have been discovered after the forensics were analyzed.

~~~respectfully snipped~~~

I don't either. I think it started as an arguement that went terribly bad.

Someone actually wrote a small book entitled: "The Shrink Wrap Murders...."

I have some small shrink wrap strips to put on small bottles. It is very stiff. Is this other shrink wrap we are talking about stiff ?

PickieChickie
02-05-2010, 09:44 PM
~~~respectfully snipped~~~

I don't either. I think it started as an arguement that went terribly bad.

Someone actually wrote a small book entitled: "The Shrink Wrap Murders...."

I have some small shrink wrap strips to put on small bottles. It is very stiff. Is this other shrink wrap we are talking about stiff ?

The shrink wrap I am thinking of is just like Saran Wrap. Hot air is used to fill in the voids and make it adhere to itself.

grayjay
02-05-2010, 09:47 PM
It was reported JP purchased a cutting torch shortly before Susan disappeared. I just don't understand how using a torch would cause both hands to burn as it doesn't take both to hold a torch. One would think he would have one hand in his pocket if he didn't have gloves and was outside in subfreezing temperatures when using it, either to shrink the plastic wrap or cut up open a grate to an abandoned, shut up mine. Unfortunately, we can't ask Tim Peterson if both JP's hands were equally wind burnt or if both sides of his hands were red. Also, the red hands appeared after he rented the car.
-----ever so gently snipped---------------------------
Wow! News to me. I found only one reference to this but to me it my ears are perked up and I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed on WS. Or has it? in comments on KSL (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true)


Big Dog Mom
2:12pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
I'm just hoping she isn't down a mine shaft.

Marc H.
2:20pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
@Big Dog Mom - Funny you should mention mine shaft. Susan dissapeared shortly after the nutty putty situation. An aquaintance of mine works at air gas in SLC. Josh purchased a cutting torch on his credit card on the Monday morning he said he was camping. The police have a copy of the receipt and can prove he lied about the camping trip. Josh's friend made note to the media that Josh had wind burned hands on Tuesday. That was not wind burn but torch burn from the cutting torch. Should someone be looking in old sealed off mine shafts for Susan? The cutting torch would have been needed to access the sealed shafts. Josh could be pretty sure these sealed off shafts would not be checked. Ever.

lostinwyoming
5:39pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
@Marc H. - meth users use cutting torches to smoke rocks and often have burns on there hands or fingers from holding the pipe.

I do agree it would be a good idea to send an officer or two out to the mines with a cadaver dog.

nomad
02-05-2010, 10:15 PM
:eek:

RubyRed
02-05-2010, 10:22 PM
Wow! News to me. I found only one reference to this but to me it my ears are perked up and I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed on WS. Or has it? in comments on KSL (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true)

Wow, shrink wrap,torch,red hands and a mine shaft.:eek:

nomad
02-05-2010, 10:46 PM
According to that commenter, police have the receipt for the torch! Did they confiscate it? Did he answer any LE questioning about it? They are soooo onto him, and
the Cox's having to wait, and their patience is heartbreaking, as I see it

Savmom
02-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Shrink wrap can adhere (melt) to your skin if it gets too hot (dh has done it too many times to count). Maybe the burns were from melted shrink wrap sticking to his hands, not from fire itself.

Pondering Mind
02-05-2010, 11:20 PM
Hi all..Tricia, interesting little tidbit of info there, TY! Just wanted to say that my Dad always kept a hug roll of this in our garage. As someone else said, he used it winterize our windows.. also used it on the floor if he was painting. Dang sure would keep most liquids contained and mess to a minimum. I wonder if they found the roll and if so, HAD it been used?

My dear dad always called this stuff 'polyurethane'' and the roll was about 6 ft. long, prolly about as big around as a utility pole. (sorry that's the only ex. I could think of) I have NO idea how many yards were on it..TONS though. Although my dad always had it, I only remember him purchasing 2 rolls in 30 yrs. or so. The roll is hollow in the middle (kind of like wrapping paper) and he had it hanging in the garage for easy use...Anyway hope that helps describe this stuff!

grayjay
02-05-2010, 11:31 PM
I typed "shrink wrap flammable generator cremation" (no quotes) into the search engine and the first item is a powerpoint that is extremely disturbing. Think mass fatality management. The document is http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/hsr3/Meetings/2004/041110/mfm1.ppt

:eek:

LaLaw2000
02-06-2010, 12:41 AM
Thread 6 was locked and I do not see a thread 7. Will there be no more general discussion threads? TIA

Can't get to your link, grayjay. What search engine did you use?

About the shrink wrap.........it would certainly contain leakage and smell issues, IMO. Sorry to be so graphic. Could Josh have wrapped Susan in this and had her in the van when he left at midnight with the boys? Could the shrink wrap be why there was no scent for the dogs in the van?

LE probably got a subpoena for bank and credit card records along with the phone records. They know exactly what Josh has bought with credit cards, so if he bought a torch the Monday morning he'd told LE he was camping, they know exactly where it was bought and what time. Thanks for posting that KSL comment, grayjay. Interesting tidbit, and we will see at some point if it is true.

Man! I am past ready for an arrest and justice for Susan!

Thoughts and prayers for Susan's boys and the Cox family.

Tricia
02-06-2010, 12:42 AM
I typed "shrink wrap flammable generator cremation" (no quotes) into the search engine and the first item is a powerpoint that is extremely disturbing. Think mass fatality management. The document is http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/hsr3/Meetings/2004/041110/mfm1.ppt

:eek:

WOW grayjay. Thanks for thinking of this.

Everyone when you click on the link grayjay provided it might take a bit to load so just be patient. It is interesting reading.

LaLaw2000
02-06-2010, 12:46 AM
I cannot get to the link because I get a windows message that I need 'powerpoint' software to open the link.

grayjay
02-06-2010, 12:57 AM
Can't get to your link, grayjay. What search engine did you use?

Sorry about that, La-- I used google and the file is a direct link to a powerpoint presentation. I didn't backtrack it, since it looked like the link is just on its own.

grayjay
02-06-2010, 01:00 AM
I cannot get to the link because I get a windows message that I need 'powerpoint' software to open the link.

I don't have it either, but there is a free alternative to Microsoft Office that lets you look at ppt presentations among other things. It's called OpenOffice.org

LaLaw2000
02-06-2010, 01:20 AM
I don't have it either, but there is a free alternative to Microsoft Office that lets you look at ppt presentations among other things. It's called OpenOffice.org

Thank you, grayjay!

grayjay
02-06-2010, 01:31 AM
Suddenly I'm reading about biohazard remediation and thinking how much an OCD person would be interested in this stuff. http://www.milehighbiocare.com/

Breathe
02-06-2010, 01:59 AM
So......he bought the shrink wrap roll to winterize the house or use in the basement while remodeling (to avoid sheet rock and painting messes)? And he bought the blow torch because he was anticipating frozen pipes this winter? Is that how he explained it to LE?

(I highly doubt he bought the blow torch to make creme brulee the following Sunday. Grrr)

kiki the parrot
02-06-2010, 03:24 AM
We use stretch wrap at work at work - and just looking at it, ya wouldn't know the difference between stretch & shrink wrap.

It's very strong--we can put, for example, monitors (heavy CRTs or LCDs) or computers on bread racks, then wrap it all around with the stretch wrap prior to shipping...doesn't require a heat gun....we also can wrap up hundreds of pounds of computers on pallets w/ it.

It's quick and easy to use....I know we buy it locally, just not sure where but I can find out if need be.

Stretch wrap is generally used to hold boxes on a pallet for transport. Stretch wrap is pulled around the load and stretched. The plastic has a memory and wants to return to its original size. This "elastic band effect" holds the load tight.

(bbm) Thanks Txmist... so a pallet or other rigid base is commonly used... like a body to a sled... sorry, now my imagination's working overtime.


So......he bought the shrink wrap roll to winterize the house or use in the basement while remodeling (to avoid sheet rock and painting messes)? And he bought the blow torch because he was anticipating frozen pipes this winter? Is that how he explained it to LE?

(I highly doubt he bought the blow torch to make creme brulee the following Sunday. Grrr)

Maybe he said it was for melting the marshmallows :rolleyes:

It's key to learn what size wrap (as pixie also mentioned I believe). It ranges from 10" (for small items) to 10' (for larger packaging) all the way to 40' (for boats, etc) so clearly it's use varies, depending upon width.

I agree this could go to premeditation (if wrap purchased for moving purposes beforehand) or have even more sinister implications.

And I can totally see this as the disposal method (and even weapon) of choice for an OCD germaphobic control freak. "Containment of bodily fluids, odors, and biohazardous materials.." Once again, the creep factor is over the top.

:parrot:

grayjay
02-06-2010, 09:32 AM
Wonderful that you brought the sled into this, Kiki. Is anyone besides me curious about the idea of cremation? Surely a blowtorch isn't needed to stretch the shrink wrap. I still don't get the role of the generator yet, either, although it's mentioned in that presentation, too.

Patty G
02-06-2010, 10:11 AM
I sure would love to see this information about the "shrink wrap" in the media! :crazy:

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:23 AM
Wow! News to me. I found only one reference to this but to me it my ears are perked up and I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed on WS. Or has it? in comments on KSL (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true)

This was reported to me by someone who lives in WVC area who spoke with the person JP bought the cutting torch from. This person who reported this to me is a reliable source and I would bet my house that JP did indeed buy the cutting torch. This was only learned about three weeks ago and has been reported to the police.

At first, the person who informed me of this told me in confidence but then later posted about it on a Facebook group discussion about JP's red hands.

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:30 AM
Wow! News to me. I found only one reference to this but to me it my ears are perked up and I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed on WS. Or has it? in comments on KSL (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true)

Law enforcement HAS been searching abandoned mines with the Tooele County Sheriff's Department and various mine employees for quite some time. They have been encountered by several people who have reported this fact and searchers who have wanted to search in the areas this group has been searching have been told to keep out!

I do NOT know why the media hasn't reported this fact unless they aren't able to verify that this is a fact or they have been specifically requested by law enforcement NOT to report on these efforts. But, since when does the media obey demands/requests made to them unless they are hit with a gag order?

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:34 AM
My dear dad always called this stuff 'polyurethane'' and the roll was about 6 ft. long, prolly about as big around as a utility pole.

Lol! If JP bought a roll that HUGE, the person who saw him buy it surely wouldn't be mistaken as to what he was buying! Lol!

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:36 AM
I typed "shrink wrap flammable generator cremation" (no quotes) into the search engine and the first item is a powerpoint that is extremely disturbing. Think mass fatality management. The document is http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/hsr3/Meetings/2004/041110/mfm1.ppt

:eek:

I don't have Powerpoint and I'm sure there are some others who don't either. Can you please paste in the information which would apply to this matter into a reply to your comment? Thank you!

grayjay
02-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Law enforcement HAS been searching abandoned mines with the Tooele County Sheriff's Department and various mine employees for quite some time. They have been encountered by several people who have reported this fact and searchers who have wanted to search in the areas this group has been searching have been told to keep out!

I do NOT know why the media hasn't reported this fact unless they aren't able to verify that this is a fact or they have been specifically requested by law enforcement NOT to report on these efforts. But, since when does the media obey demands/requests made to them unless they are hit with a gag order?


Oh, good. Nothing like the general public searching the abandoned mines, just on the safety issues. Thanks so much for the information. Now everything LE has been doing looks even more on target. I hate this waiting, but now at least I understand.

grayjay
02-06-2010, 10:45 AM
I don't have Powerpoint and I'm sure there are some others who don't either. Can you please paste in the information which would apply to this matter into a reply to your comment? Thank you!
I technically can't do that because of how it's presented and also it would be questionable in terms of fair use. It's also very upsetting and graphic. You need the software to read the content of this and the embedded images.

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:48 AM
Wow! News to me. I found only one reference to this but to me it my ears are perked up and I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed on WS. Or has it? in comments on KSL (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true)

Big Dog Mom
2:12pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
I'm just hoping she isn't down a mine shaft.

Marc H.
2:20pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
@Big Dog Mom - Funny you should mention mine shaft. Susan dissapeared shortly after the nutty putty situation. An aquaintance of mine works at air gas in SLC. Josh purchased a cutting torch on his credit card on the Monday morning he said he was camping. The police have a copy of the receipt and can prove he lied about the camping trip. Josh's friend made note to the media that Josh had wind burned hands on Tuesday. That was not wind burn but torch burn from the cutting torch. Should someone be looking in old sealed off mine shafts for Susan? The cutting torch would have been needed to access the sealed shafts. Josh could be pretty sure these sealed off shafts would not be checked. Ever.

lostinwyoming
5:39pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
@Marc H. - meth users use cutting torches to smoke rocks and often have burns on there hands or fingers from holding the pipe.

I do agree it would be a good idea to send an officer or two out to the mines with a cadaver dog.


PickieChickie's reply:
Acetylene canisters vary in size and style as do the attachments. Some have the "torch" attached directly to the canister and can be held in one's hand, (the type meth and crack smokers use), while others are very large and have hoses that attach to them.

We don't know exactly what size or style of cutting torch JP bought. But, reading the comment above leads me to believe it was the hand held style. Here are some images of acetylene torches: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=acetylene+torch&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-m1

We also must consider the possibility that JP was using the torch to smoke drugs, although it would seem that those new cigarette lighters that have a torch like flame and "hiss" would suffice. So, it doesn't seem that this would be the reason for buying a torch.

Also, I've not heard it mentioned that he could have purchased the torch to cut off a lock on a US Bureau of Land Management, United States Forest Service or other gate to access an area that was currently barred to the public! If it was discovered a lock had been cut to open a gate, this could explain why law enforcement has apparently confined their searches to a particular area!

grayjay
02-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Also, I've not heard it mentioned that he could have purchased the torch to cut off a lock on a US Bureau of Land Management, United States Forest Service or other gate to access an area that was currently barred to the public! If it was discovered a lock had been cut to open a gate, this could explain why law enforcement has apparently confined their searches to a particular area!
Bolt cutters are so much cheaper and safer to use than a torch, this only makes sense if it's for two uses. If he did that, he could cut a pipe and weld it back so most people would never notice it even if they saw it. Sure hope that didn't happen.

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 11:57 AM
I technically can't do that because of how it's presented and also it would be questionable in terms of fair use. It's also very upsetting and graphic. You need the software to read the content of this and the embedded images.

I understand. Thank you. Is the method described something JP could have done? Can you briefly describe it without using Susan's name such as "If a person wanted to dispose of a body using the method described, it would involve ............"?

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Bolt cutters are so much cheaper and safer to use than a torch, this only makes sense if it's for two uses. If he did that, he could cut a pipe and weld it back so most people would never notice it even if they saw it. Sure hope that didn't happen.

I agree with you but the gates I am thinking of have the lock(s) up in a open-ended pipe and there isn't room for bolt cutters to expand (which is the purpose for the pipe.)

grayjay
02-06-2010, 12:04 PM
I understand. Thank you. Is the method described something JP could have done? Can you briefly describe it without using Susan's name such as "If a person wanted to dispose of a body using the method described, it would involve ............"? A sled, shrink wrap, and cremation for handling mass fatalities pretty much sums it up. The point of the article is that Thurston County in Washington was distributing this presentation as part of their Mass Fatality Management plan, as part of a low-cost disaster plan.

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 12:10 PM
A sled, shrink wrap, and cremation for handling mass fatalities pretty much sums it up. The point of the article is that Thurston County in Washington was distributing this presentation as part of their Mass Fatality Management plan, as part of a low-cost disaster plan.

I don't want to sound dense, but are you saying that a body thoroughly wrapped in shrink wrap placed on a sled with wooden slats, when set fire, would cause enough heat to totally cremate a body?

My6
02-06-2010, 12:15 PM
No wonder he "said" he took the boys "sledding"! With the shrink Wrap, the Torch and that presentation coming out of Washington State where his Father is from... Just sick!

grayjay
02-06-2010, 12:29 PM
I don't want to sound dense, but are you saying that a body thoroughly wrapped in shrink wrap placed on a sled with wooden slats, when set fire, would cause enough heat to totally cremate a body? I tried to figure this out, but didn't get to the finish line on it. It does look like at least a possibility, as much as a shrink-wrapped body tossed down a mine shaft.

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 12:30 PM
No wonder he "said" he took the boys "sledding"! With the shrink Wrap, the Torch and that presentation coming out of Washington State where his Father is from... Just sick!

He allegedly purchased shrink wrap before Sunday, December 6, 2009
He took the boys sledding on Sunday night, December 6, 2009
He allegedly purchased a hand-held acetylene torch on Monday, December 7, 2009

One would think, if he was going to use the cremation method, he would have had the torch already. However, he may have only had one with him on Sunday night/Monday morning when he left at 12:30 AM and needed to buy another one because the process didn't complete!

Perhaps he used the sledding trip to hide the sled and other items he needed somewhere and used shrink wrap to bind everything together. Perhaps he needed a reason to explain why he had a sled in the van. Maybe the oldest boy told Susan, upon returning from the sledding trip, "Daddy left our sled in the woods!", or some other thing that caused an argument between the two, something that made JP angry with his son and which made Susan angry because of the way he responded to the boy's remark or complaint. Who knows!

Maybe his trip with the rental car was to find the torch and other items left behind so he could dispose of them better BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO HOT when he left the disposal site on Sunday! Perhaps he didn't have time to wait for things to cool down like the sled runners!

Maybe his hands were red from digging in the snow trying to find the sled runners! Who knows!

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 12:43 PM
I tried to figure this out, but didn't get to the finish line on it. It does look like at least a possibility, as much as a shrink-wrapped body tossed down a mine shaft.

Shrink wrapping a body would clearly trap odors inside, making it next to impossible for a cadaver dog to locate it. One would think such a task would be difficult and time consuming. It would make sense that they would wrap the body in a sheet or blanket first so they wouldn't have to be looking at the person's face and body the entire time.

Plastic burns for a very long time as does polyester, and, if he did use a synthetic blanket or polyester sheet underneath the plastic, the fire would have lasted a lot longer. But, the smoke would have been dark and really smelly! Still, I still don't see how the fire would be hot enough to totally cremate an entire human body.

So once again, I am at the point of wondering what he used that acetylene torch for and why it was purchased on Monday. Why would he be so careless as to buy one with a credit card? It would have made more sense to go to an ATM, withdraw cash, then purchase it.

HollyHawk
02-06-2010, 02:16 PM
Thanks Tricia. Why would this person wait until now to say something? Do you think the source is reliable?

HollyHawk
02-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Thanks Tricia.
Why did the person wait so long to reveal this. Do you consider the source reliable?

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Thanks Tricia. Why would this person wait until now to say something? Do you think the source is reliable?

Some people who were mum are now starting to talk, including friends and family members of Susan Powell. We all know keeping things to ourselves is very difficult. It would be a shame if the information was just a false rumor spread around. I do believe the information about the torch because a person who spoke to the person it was purchased from told me about it, someone who doesn't have a fake Facebook profile and someone who has been involved in conducting ground searches for Susan Powell.

HollyHawk
02-06-2010, 02:24 PM
I helped decorate Susan's house with the purple ribbons and none of the windows in front had shrink wrap on them. We didn't go to the back.

nursebeeme
02-06-2010, 02:40 PM
anyone ever seen the show, "Dexter"? that is another use of shrink wrap (just thinking)

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 02:47 PM
anyone ever seen the show, "Dexter"? that is another use of shrink wrap (just thinking)

No, what did they use it for on that show?

gwenabob
02-06-2010, 02:50 PM
All this talk about mines reminds me--it has been a long time since I read the book "The Lovely Bones" and have not seen the movie, but I seem to recall that the subject of the book was put in a safe and dropped into a mine or sinkhole. I wonder if Susan read the book recently and perhaps even mentioned parts of the book to Josh? He just doesn't seem smart enough to come up with ideas on his own.

I have a question about the abandoned Utah mines. Are they marked in any way? Would a person just driving along the freeway be able to see "Oh, yeah, that's an abandoned mine" or are they hidden and you have to go looking for them? I really have no idea how to picture all these "abandoned mines" in my mind.

grayjay
02-06-2010, 03:58 PM
My family loves to explore the back roads and we've come across many abandoned mines over the years here in Colorado. I'd assume the ones in Tooele County are the same or similar.

Some are marked with signs, others are not. The main entrance might be neatly closed with steel bars if the owners had planned that one day the mine might be reopened, but if it was a bust, the poor folks would just bulldoze it closed and there'd be a pile of junk. Some are no more than a very deep hole (mine shaft) covered over with boards. Some are quite rustic and oddly scenic, but the tailings and remaining debris can be all kinds of dangerous. Yes, not a place for a child to be, either, but you usually won't find a warning sign of any kind. Think Uranium, Lead, Arsenic, and so on, and do not go there unadvised.

Most of the ones near highways have been mitigated better than the ones off the beaten path, but not always. There's a good chance the dust on Josh's shoes might tell on him, too. One possible reason for going back into the van a second time because the stuff tracks into the vehicle.

sunnydee
02-06-2010, 06:06 PM
Gwenabob, Just days before Susan was missing, there were lots of stories about the decision to seal up the Nutty Putty Cave permanently, leaving a dead man inside. A man was exploring the cave and became stuck. They tried to rescue him, but because of all of the turns inside the cave, the rescuers had a very difficult time. At one point, they made some success, but then the rope broke or something and he dropped back to the starting point. He died. They decided it was too risky to send someone down in person to get him. (Being dead, he was no longer able to assist by moving his body to the form of the tight cave) I believe they sealed the cave up on 12/4/09. There is no way that Josh didn't know about this story in Utah County.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13919224

kiki the parrot
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
I don't have Powerpoint and I'm sure there are some others who don't either. Can you please paste in the information which would apply to this matter into a reply to your comment? Thank you!


I don't want to sound dense, but are you saying that a body thoroughly wrapped in shrink wrap placed on a sled with wooden slats, when set fire, would cause enough heat to totally cremate a body?

For those unable to view, it's a "mass fatality mgmt system for proper secure handling of human remains that protects from spread of bio hazardous waste associated w storage, transport and handling" of human remains (lovely... and very Soylent Green-esque).

It's purpose is that remains (vs intact body) are difficult to manipulate w/out secure foundation provided by a rigid base (wrapping alone does not contain biohazards) which avoids excessive maneuvering. So they came up w this portable industrial grade shrink-wrapping system to secure a rigid industry standard cremation container--a huge poly tunnel mounted on a huge heavy-duty steel frame (again, think mass fatalities).

These cremation-ready containers or caskets encased in strong low-density poly film can then be fed via conveyor into one end of the tunnel and the film is shrunk around the container in a matter of seconds, requiring only portable air compressor and stand alone generator.

In a nutshell a containment system for the bio safe transport of mass human remains which has little application here beyond the macabre idea that in addition to securing remains, a rigid stablizing base is probably useful if you plan to shrink wrap an intact body as well. Hth... :sheesh:

:parrot:

gwenabob
02-06-2010, 06:38 PM
Gwenabob, Just days before Susan was missing, there were lots of stories about the decision to seal up the Nutty Putty Cave permanently, leaving a dead man inside. A man was exploring the cave and became stuck. They tried to rescue him, but because of all of the turns inside the cave, the rescuers had a very difficult time. At one point, they made some success, but then the rope broke or something and he dropped back to the starting point. He died. They decided it was too risky to send someone down in person to get him. (Being dead, he was no longer able to assist by moving his body to the form of the tight cave) I believe they sealed the cave up on 12/4/09. There is no way that Josh didn't know about this story in Utah County.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13919224

Thanks for this--I had no idea.

So, I guess this leaves LE searching for signs of disturbance around mines not far off the road in areas he could have accessed that night. This certainly explains why LE (or anybody close to the investigation) was not setting up searches for Susan. They would end up with multiple cases of do-gooders (but not necessarily experts) getting lost, hurt, killed while exploring abandoned mines.

Josh is really diabolical. But I think he will be charged and he will be found guilty. Unless he kills himself first, which would not surprise me.

kiki the parrot
02-06-2010, 06:45 PM
The idea of JP trying to incinerate or cremate a body himself (for which purpose he purchases acetlyne torch) is beyond the scope of possiblity for me. Maybe for the shrinking itself. However the purpose of shrinking or encasing a body would have been to avoid coming in contact, contain leaking fluids, and prevent any trace evidence from being left in the van (hair w death bands eg). And given JP did not purchase until afterwards this seems unlikely to have served this purpose since Susan was already removed from the home and had presumably already been inside the van. Even if it was not the first torch or heating instrument but second (replacement enabling him to complete the task) this still makes no sense to me. :waitasec:

I realize there are perfectly innocent explanations or functions which either of these two items could have served, but I'm at a loss to explain the odd timing of these reported purchases. :confused:

:parrot:

kiki the parrot
02-06-2010, 06:54 PM
There are something like over 10K abandoned mines in UTAH ALONE. I'm praying LE does at least have the STATE--and hopefully specific area--narrowed down. It's a dangerous undertaking from what I've read, even if they knew the exact mine and the snow must make this a more daunting task.

Omg who would do this.

ETA: Approximately 10,697 abandoned hardrock mines exist in Utah according to the Bureau of Land Mgmt and Forest Service estimates.

http://www.abandonedmines.gov/mapdata.html

:parrot:

Dr.Fessel
02-06-2010, 07:03 PM
The idea of JP trying to incinerate or cremate a body himself (for which purpose he purchases acetlyne torch) is beyond the scope of possiblity for me. Maybe for the shrinking itself. However the purpose of shrinking or encasing a body would have been to avoid coming in contact, contain leaking fluids, and prevent any trace evidence from being left in the van (hair w death bands eg). And given JP did not purchase until afterwards this seems unlikely to have served this purpose since Susan was already removed from the home and had traveled inside the van. Even if it was not the first torch or heating instrument but replacement enabling him to complete the task this makes no sense to me. :waitasec:

I realize there are other functions which either of these two items could have served, but I'm at a loss to explain the odd timing of these reported purchases. :confused:

:parrot:

I question both these stories and the timing. Someone is either playing with the public or Josh.

kiki the parrot
02-06-2010, 07:11 PM
Law enforcement HAS been searching abandoned mines with the Tooele County Sheriff's Department and various mine employees for quite some time. They have been encountered by several people who have reported this fact and searchers who have wanted to search in the areas this group has been searching have been told to keep out!

I do NOT know why the media hasn't reported this fact unless they aren't able to verify that this is a fact or they have been specifically requested by law enforcement NOT to report on these efforts. But, since when does the media obey demands/requests made to them unless they are hit with a gag order?

Hoping and praying this is based upon GPS, cell or other concrete data (ie besides mileage in any direction) and means LE may has been able to narrow down to general area. :prayer:

:parrot:

grayjay
02-06-2010, 07:18 PM
I question both these stories and the timing. Someone is either playing with the public or Josh.
Interesting perspective, Doc. Wish I knew for sure.

Josh could be having a lot of fun and gaining confidence and thinking we're all pretty stupid if these items are not true. I'm glad I looked around anyway, though, because I learned things I didn't know before, and so did a few others who have been sleuthing in earnest.

:innocent:

Dr.Fessel
02-06-2010, 07:28 PM
I think there is a real chance LE put out both these stories trying to mess with Josh while he is still there working on his house.

I am really surprised they haven't messed with him more.

fran
02-06-2010, 08:35 PM
I have a hard time believing Josh has the guts to have premeditated this disappearance. He seems more of an explosive type, rather than a thought out plan. I could be wrong though. I do, however, believe there's a strong possibility that he may have drugged Susan that night. It just doesn't seem normal that Susan would lie down, even if tired, and leave her friend to work on the project, when it was Susan who asked her for help. It just doesn't appear like something Susan would normally do.

The shrink wrap could very well have been for the house and weatherization. But did he do it? We know from a poster the front windows weren't wrapped.

OTOH, IF there was no shrink wrap when LE served the SW, I'd like to know what he did do with it. Could he have decided to wrap Susan in it before disposing of her? IMHO, yes.

The thing that bothers me is the torch. I didn't know they have grates across the mines, but that would make sense that he bought the torch to remove a grate so he could place Susan in there. I actually thought of that recent case in Utah where the young man died in the mine and they sealed it, when this case first began. Now with the information of the torch, it seems much more of a possibility.

Good grief! This is definitely like a needle in a haystack.

JMHO
fran

PS...........could he have purchased the torch in the hopes of melting snow so he could bury the body? I really don't think he bought the torch to use with the shrink wrap. I don't believe you could use an open flame with that stuff.

PPS......I asked my daughter about Dexter. I guess this serial killer Dexter would wrap his victims in shrink wrap so they couldn't move. And sometimes he would cover parts of the room to avoid splatter. :(( fran

panthera
02-06-2010, 08:48 PM
This is good news. It could mean that Susan is perfectly preserved and Josh's prints could be all over it. What an idiot!
Reading through the posts and envisioning him wrapping her body up, I was thinking the exact same thing. And yes, what an idiot if it's true!

Tricia
02-06-2010, 09:01 PM
I question both these stories and the timing. Someone is either playing with the public or Josh.

Guys, I trust my source. I have confirmed that the place it was purchased was a place that Susan and Josh shopped at. It is not a large store with stores all over the country. It might just be local or Intermountain.

The ony reason I don't mention the store is I don't want to get the source in trouble.

I will tell you the reason she is so sure it was Josh, as she told the police, is because he shopped at this store all the time and the clerks would argue about who would wait on him. Nobody liked him because he was so strange and difficult.

I was hesitant to put this up and that is why I made sure to note that this has not been confirmed and there is always the chance the clerk was mistaken.

Please forgive me as I am not trying to sound like a jerk but since I trust the source and I own the forum I felt it would be OK to post about it.

panthera
02-06-2010, 09:16 PM
Guys, I trust my source. I have confirmed that the place it was purchased was a place that Susan and Josh shopped at. It is not a large store with stores all over the country. It might just be local or Intermountain.

The ony reason I don't mention the store is I don't want to get the source in trouble.

I will tell you the reason she is so sure it was Josh, as she told the police, is because he shopped at this store all the time and the clerks would argue about who would wait on him. Nobody liked him because he was so strange and difficult.

I was hesitant to put this up and that is why I made sure to note that this has not been confirmed and there is always the chance the clerk was mistaken.

Please forgive me as I am not trying to sound like a jerk but since I trust the source and I own the forum I felt it would be OK to post about it.
(bolding mine)

That statement alone would confirm it for me. Customers are remembered either by what they routinely purchase, if they're nice & talk to the cashier, or if they are extremely difficult, rude, or constantly returning items. What I am curious about is if any of this wrap was found at the house, and how much had been used. :waitasec:

diphi
02-06-2010, 09:30 PM
It just dosen't seem like he had it in him to premeditate in such detail. But, of course, I could be wrong.

I'm questioning that a hand-held propane torch would be the best tool to cut into a locked mine. I agree with a previous poster that a bolt cutter would be the way to go. But if he had already determined that a bolt cutter wouldn't work, then that means he would have already visited the mine previously to make that determination.

OTOH, I can see using the propane torch to melt something...like snow or ice on a lake..

It's just all pretty weird...

diphi
02-06-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm with fran that he wouldn't use the torch on the shrinkwrap (post #87 above). A heat gun, yes, but not a torch like that.

passionflower
02-06-2010, 09:36 PM
For those unable to view, it's a "mass fatality mgmt system for proper secure handling of human remains that protects from spread of bio hazardous waste associated w storage, transport and handling" of human remains (lovely... and very Soylent Green-esque).

It's purpose is that remains (vs intact body) are difficult to manipulate w/out secure foundation provided by a rigid base (wrapping alone does not contain biohazards) which avoids excessive maneuvering. So they came up w this portable industrial grade shrink-wrapping system to secure a rigid industry standard cremation container--a huge poly tunnel mounted on a huge heavy-duty steel frame (again, think mass fatalities).

These cremation-ready containers or caskets encased in strong low-density poly film can then be fed via conveyor into one end of the tunnel and the film is shrunk around the container in a matter of seconds, requiring only portable air compressor and stand alone generator.
In a nutshell a containment system for the bio safe transport of mass human remains which has little application here beyond the macabre idea that in addition to securing remains, a rigid stablizing base is probably useful if you plan to shrink wrap an intact body as well. Hth... :sheesh:

:parrot:

OMG,,,,,,,,,,,,,those words just made me sick,

passionflower
02-06-2010, 09:43 PM
O/T where are the boys while Josh is playing at Susan's house???

diphi
02-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Josh's desire to work on his basement has been commented on several times by him and others. Is it possible he bought the shrinkwrap to prepare his basement in some way for the upcoming work? In other words, given the routine things going on his life at that time, would he have had a legitimate reason to buy shrinkwrap?

diphi
02-06-2010, 10:11 PM
O/T where are the boys while Josh is playing at Susan's house???

With his father, I suppose? Does anyone know how long Josh plans to stay in WVC this time?

PercyVeer
02-06-2010, 10:20 PM
Strange and difficult...I think he was losing it for a long time. So sorry Susan thought patience and faith could change a nutjob into a human. I do not blame her, I tried once...

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:30 PM
For those unable to view, it's a "mass fatality mgmt system for proper secure handling of human remains that protects from spread of bio hazardous waste associated w storage, transport and handling" of human remains (lovely... and very Soylent Green-esque).

It's purpose is that remains (vs intact body) are difficult to manipulate w/out secure foundation provided by a rigid base (wrapping alone does not contain biohazards) which avoids excessive maneuvering. So they came up w this portable industrial grade shrink-wrapping system to secure a rigid industry standard cremation container--a huge poly tunnel mounted on a huge heavy-duty steel frame (again, think mass fatalities).

These cremation-ready containers or caskets encased in strong low-density poly film can then be fed via conveyor into one end of the tunnel and the film is shrunk around the container in a matter of seconds, requiring only portable air compressor and stand alone generator.

In a nutshell a containment system for the bio safe transport of mass human remains which has little application here beyond the macabre idea that in addition to securing remains, a rigid stablizing base is probably useful if you plan to shrink wrap an intact body as well. Hth... :sheesh:

:parrot:

Thank you. So we've got the sled, shrink wrap, air compressor, acetylene torch ........... hmmmmmmmm! Oh! But of course! Graham crackers, Hershey's chocolate bars and marshmallows!

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:37 PM
I think there is a real chance LE put out both these stories trying to mess with Josh while he is still there working on his house.

I am really surprised they haven't messed with him more.

I think you should go over to JP's house and ask him if he has some shrink wrap, a sled, an acetylene torch and a generator you can borrow! :Banane03:

PickieChickie
02-06-2010, 10:44 PM
Guys, I trust my source. I have confirmed that the place it was purchased was a place that Susan and Josh shopped at. It is not a large store with stores all over the country. It might just be local or Intermountain.

The ony reason I don't mention the store is I don't want to get the source in trouble.

I will tell you the reason she is so sure it was Josh, as she told the police, is because he shopped at this store all the time and the clerks would argue about who would wait on him. Nobody liked him because he was so strange and difficult.

I was hesitant to put this up and that is why I made sure to note that this has not been confirmed and there is always the chance the clerk was mistaken.

Please forgive me as I am not trying to sound like a jerk but since I trust the source and I own the forum I felt it would be OK to post about it.

I appreciate your sharing a little more information and for creating webslueths! It would be great to know how wide the roll was and how many linear feet were on it and how many days he bought it before Susan disappeared.

Since the basement and deck weren't finished, and his garage was a complete mess, I am assuming he is the sort of person who starts tasks but doesn't complete them. The appearance of his garage makes me think he has attention deficit disorder.

Perhaps he bought the shrink wrap to weatherize his windows and never got around to it.

GrandmaTo4
02-06-2010, 11:25 PM
The idea of JP trying to incinerate or cremate a body himself (for which purpose he purchases acetlyne torch) is beyond the scope of possiblity for me.
:parrot: <<Snip>>

I agree, kiki. I think it's beyond the scope of possibility, period!

Most people don't realize how difficult it is to cremate a body -- never mind completely burning a body in the freezing - windy - snowy - wilderness. IMO, Josh couldn't have transported enough 10 gallon acetylene tanks in the mini-van to do the job.

See what it takes to cremate a body:

"The human body is about 95% water. In order for the body to burn, the water has to be first evaporated.

In a cremation furnace, to dehydrate a 150 lb. body it will require about 142,500-146,700 BTU. To convert the hydrocarbons, (dehydrated body) into ash is somewhat less.

If we assumed about a 40% efficiency factor overall, (of the cremation oven) including all losses etc, that means that the net energy use would be about 356,250 BTU, or about 356 cubic feet of natural gas."

http://www.funeralassistant.com/consumerinfo/Cremation.htm#Crem1



Furthermore, the temperature necessary to burn a body is enormous -- and could not likely be provided by a hand held acetylene torch for a long enough period of time.

"Q -- How long does it take to cremate a body, (in a cremation oven)?

Cremating at the optimum temperature (1600 - 1800 degrees), the average weighted remains takes 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

Q -- Is the body exposed to an open flame during the cremation process?

Yes, the body is exposed to direct heat and flame. Cremation is performed by placing the deceased in a casket or other container and then placing the casket or container into a cremation chamber where they are subjected to intense heat and flame.

http://www.funeralassistant.com/consumerinfo/Cremation.htm#Crem2

My6
02-06-2010, 11:27 PM
At first I thought looking at the guy that there was just no way he could have done anything planned.. BUT.. I agree that her inviting a friend over and then suddenly being too sleepy to visit is really odd. I also do not put it past Josh and his Father to plan something especially what we know of his father.. I think he plays alot more into this whole thing than some people realize IMO of course..

My6
02-06-2010, 11:42 PM
Just a note, though the thought still sickens me to think, but since he won't show them where he went camping and the fact that he was gone and came back with chapped hands, I have often thought of this case and seems it is entirely possible to do at times without anyone even noticing?? I don't know..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4170769&page=1

I have never posted a link so if it doesn't work look up Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach I think you will find her story. Sorry newbie here :)

GrandmaTo4
02-06-2010, 11:45 PM
.
<<snip>>
Since the basement and deck weren't finished, and his garage was a complete mess, I am assuming he is the sort of person who starts tasks but doesn't complete them. The appearance of his garage makes me think he has attention deficit disorder.

Perhaps he bought the shrink wrap to weatherize his windows and never got around to it.

(bbm)
PickieChickie, I believe the Powell home was built in 1998. The building codes would have required quality double pane windows.

I doubt very much if anyone with quality double pane windows goes to the trouble of shrink wrapping their windows. The additional gain of insulating value wouldn't be worth the effort or the price of the shrink wrap.

If Josh needed mess protection from painting or sheetrocking, wouldn't he just purchase the cheaper plastic throwaway drop-cloths?

I believe shrink wrap is almost exclusively used for bundling. It would have worked very well to wrap up a body and seal it almost perfectly. _ :(

GrandmaTo4
02-07-2010, 12:03 AM
Just a note, though the thought still sickens me to think, but since he won't show them where he went camping and the fact that he was gone and came back with chapped hands, I have often thought of this case and seems it is entirely possible to do at times without anyone even noticing?? I don't know..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4170769&page=1

I have never posted a link so if it doesn't work look up Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach I think you will find her story. Sorry newbie here :)

"Charred human remains of an adult and a fetus were unearthed," the statement read. "There appeared to be the bodies of an adult female with a fetus located near the abdomen region of the female."

It goes to show how difficult it is to get rid of a body by fire. Even the tiny little fetus was still relatively intact, even though the attempted cremation was done in a shielded fire pit for who knows how many hours.

With DNA identification as advanced as it is, Josh would have no particular reason to burn Susan's body because DNA could have been extracted from her bones or teeth. Cremation would have to be totally complete to prevent identification.

Even in a crematorium oven, bone fragments remain. After cremation the remaining bones are ground-up/pulverized and included with the ashes.

diphi
02-07-2010, 12:24 AM
Just a note, though the thought still sickens me to think, but since he won't show them where he went camping and the fact that he was gone and came back with chapped hands, I have often thought of this case and seems it is entirely possible to do at times without anyone even noticing?? I don't know..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4170769&page=1

I have never posted a link so if it doesn't work look up Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach I think you will find her story. Sorry newbie here :)

WELCOME, My6! :innocent: Another North Carolina case, I see. Well, we certainly have no shortage of them...

I'm not real sure where you're going with this. Are you suggesting he may have burned her in his backyard or somewhere else?

diphi
02-07-2010, 12:27 AM
<<Snip>>

I agree, kiki. I think it's beyond the scope of possibility, period!

Most people don't realize how difficult it is to cremate a body -- never mind completely burning a body in the freezing - windy - snowy - wilderness. IMO, Josh couldn't have transported enough 10 gallon acetylene tanks in the mini-van to do the job.

See what it takes to cremate a body:

"The human body is about 95% water. In order for the body to burn, the water has to be first evaporated.

In a cremation furnace, to dehydrate a 150 lb. body it will require about 142,500-146,700 BTU. To convert the hydrocarbons, (dehydrated body) into ash is somewhat less.

If we assumed about a 40% efficiency factor overall, (of the cremation oven) including all losses etc, that means that the net energy use would be about 356,250 BTU, or about 356 cubic feet of natural gas."

http://www.funeralassistant.com/consumerinfo/Cremation.htm#Crem1



Furthermore, the temperature necessary to burn a body is enormous -- and could not likely be provided by a hand held acetylene torch for a long enough period of time.

"Q -- How long does it take to cremate a body, (in a cremation oven)?

Cremating at the optimum temperature (1600 - 1800 degrees), the average weighted remains takes 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

Q -- Is the body exposed to an open flame during the cremation process?

Yes, the body is exposed to direct heat and flame. Cremation is performed by placing the deceased in a casket or other container and then placing the casket or container into a cremation chamber where they are subjected to intense heat and flame.

http://www.funeralassistant.com/consumerinfo/Cremation.htm#Crem2


Very informative. Thanks.

grayjay
02-07-2010, 01:06 AM
"Charred human remains of an adult and a fetus were unearthed," the statement read. "There appeared to be the bodies of an adult female with a fetus located near the abdomen region of the female."

It goes to show how difficult it is to get rid of a body by fire. Even the tiny little fetus was still relatively intact, even though the attempted cremation was done in a shielded fire pit for who knows how many hours.

With DNA identification as advanced as it is, Josh would have no particular reason to burn Susan's body because DNA could have been extracted from her bones or teeth. Cremation would have to be totally complete to prevent identification.

Even in a crematorium oven, bone fragments remain. After cremation the remaining bones are ground-up/pulverized and included with the ashes.
I'm wondering if the burning of the victim in a case like this is yet another act of rage or a way to cover up just some of the evidence. In any case, I brought up the notion of cremation because it might at least raise the questions of what they're looking for. I never meant to imply complete cremation, and am glad we now know that's out of the question.

Tricia
02-07-2010, 01:34 AM
I appreciate your sharing a little more information and for creating webslueths! It would be great to know how wide the roll was and how many linear feet were on it and how many days he bought it before Susan disappeared.

Since the basement and deck weren't finished, and his garage was a complete mess, I am assuming he is the sort of person who starts tasks but doesn't complete them. The appearance of his garage makes me think he has attention deficit disorder.

Perhaps he bought the shrink wrap to weatherize his windows and never got around to it.

The thing is Josh could have purchased the shrink wrap for something totally innocent like your posts suggests.

This info could have nothing to do with the case and then again it might have everything to do with it. That is what is so frustrating.

mysticrose
02-07-2010, 01:36 AM
So I was talking with my husband tonight about the cutting torch, generator and shrink wrap...his thought was of course that Josh wrapped Susan up in the shrink wrap, and maybe used the cutting torch to open up a closed off mine. He said you can use the cutting torch to reweld the grate back in place but it is pretty hard to do, but that the generator could come in handy for an ark welder to weld it back.

It got me thinking though I think the generator may have been used to keep the children warm while they slept in the van instead of running the fuel out of the car.

One other thought wich I have had since this occured is Josh being a realtor, he would know alot about the area. He would also know of homes that where only summer vacation homes probally out in the tulies somewhere. It might be a good idea to look around of properties he may have sold that have larger acreage and perhaps one with a mining claim where the roads are kept up.
It had to be fairly easy access for him given the fact he was driving the van. My van su*ks in the snow and gets stuck easliy so he had to have fairly good ingress to wherever he went...jmo

Eta: It seems to be common knowledge for the most part that when you burn something it usally destroys any evidence that would be left on the item being burned...

My6
02-07-2010, 01:46 AM
WELCOME, My6! :innocent: Another North Carolina case, I see. Well, we certainly have no shortage of them...

I'm not real sure where you're going with this. Are you suggesting he may have burned her in his backyard or somewhere else?

Just saying it is possible that he burned her somewhere, anywhere in Utah area on Sunday Night, then with the Rental car maybe tried to Bury the remains. Not back yard no. Just sayin it has been done before right in someones back yard, what is not to stop him from doing it out in the desert or rather maybe he actually headed up North or East in the mountains??

Tricia
02-07-2010, 02:29 AM
Just saying it is possible that he burned her somewhere, anywhere in Utah area on Sunday Night, then with the Rental car maybe tried to Bury the remains. Not back yard no. Just sayin it has been done before right in someones back yard, what is not to stop him from doing it out in the desert or rather maybe he actually headed up North or East in the mountains??

Welcome My6. Great Post.

This is one of the most frustrating cases I have ever come across.

We all know Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance but there are too many lose ends to make a case, yet anyway.

HollyHawk
02-07-2010, 02:46 AM
Some people who were mum are now starting to talk, including friends and family members of Susan Powell. We all know keeping things to ourselves is very difficult. It would be a shame if the information was just a false rumor spread around. I do believe the information about the torch because a person who spoke to the person it was purchased from told me about it, someone who doesn't have a fake Facebook profile and someone who has been involved in conducting ground searches for Susan Powell.

That was me, Tricia. I used a different name here. I am relieved that people are starting to talk. I just HOPE they gave this info to police in the beginning. Thanks.

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 02:58 AM
<<Snip>>

I agree, kiki. I think it's beyond the scope of possibility, period!

Most people don't realize how difficult it is to cremate a body -- never mind completely burning a body in the freezing - windy - snowy - wilderness. IMO, Josh couldn't have transported enough 10 gallon acetylene tanks in the mini-van to do the job.


Even in a crematorium oven, bone fragments remain. After cremation the remaining bones are ground-up/pulverized and included with the ashes.

(snip) Exactly. Yet while I realize a body could never be completely incinerated using any ordinary heat source under most any circumstances, I didn't think anybody was suggesting a torch would've been used directly--rather to ignite or maintain a burning fire. I think both melting ice, or cutting a grate, are also possibilities.

:parrot:

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 03:03 AM
At first I thought looking at the guy that there was just no way he could have done anything planned.. BUT.. I agree that her inviting a friend over and then suddenly being too sleepy to visit is really odd. I also do not put it past Josh and his Father to plan something especially what we know of his father.. I think he plays alot more into this whole thing than some people realize IMO of course..

As I mentioned earlier, it even occurred to me that a tranquilizer might make it possible to use shrinkwrap as a murder weapon :/ (yeesh...) but then again why, when you could just poison them all in one step kwim :sheesh:

:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 03:04 AM
Details I'd like to know:

Shrink wrap:
The width and linear feet on the roll
The date it was purchased

Cutting torch:
The style that was purchased
The time it was purchased on Monday, December 7, 2009

Generator:
When did JP purchase it?
Did he buy it new or used?
Did anyone who was at the Powell home when JP returned on December 7, 2009 actually see a generator in the back of his van? If yes, what style was it?

Extension cord:
Did anyone see a heavy duty, outdoor extension cord in the back of JP's van when he returned on December 7, 2009?

What else was in the van when he returned on December 7, 2009?

Were the boys acting "strange" when JP returned on December 7, 2009?

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 03:09 AM
(snip) I think both melting ice, or cutting a grate, are also possibilities.

:parrot:

Maybe he used the cutting torch to warm his hands because it would be less suspicious than buying gloves! Lol! After all, he appears not to be the brightest bulb on the string! Lol!

Webslueth: Hello? Yes, did you rent a car to a weird guy wearing a blue beanie with a cutting torch stuffed in his jacket?
Rental car agent: Your mean the crack head?
Webslueth: What do you mean?
Rental car agent: Well, we figured he must be if he carries one with him everywhere he goes?
Webslueth: I don't get it!
Rental car agent: Let me put it to you this way. Any guy who gets dropped off by a Taxi carrying a cutting torch has to be a crack head!
Webslueth: OK! Did the guy have fat lips and the top one sticks up like he's snarling when he talks?
Rental car agent: I didn't notice! I was just hoping he'd offer me some crack!

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 03:12 AM
I doubt very much if anyone with quality double pane windows goes to the trouble of shrink wrapping their windows. The additional gain of insulating value wouldn't be worth the effort or the price of the shrink wrap.

If Josh needed mess protection from painting or sheetrocking, wouldn't he just purchase the cheaper plastic throwaway drop-cloths?

I believe shrink wrap is almost exclusively used for bundling. It would have worked very well to wrap up a body and seal it almost perfectly. _ :(

(snip, bbm) Hi grandma... For someone whose concern was that the body and it's evidence deteriorate as rapidly as possible in the wilds, s-wrap would be counterproductive. But for an OCD husband whose primary concern was getting his dead wife's body out of their home and disposed of while ensuring no forensic traces of death are left either at the scene nor inside their vehicle, rate of decomp may not have been uppermost in his mind... particularly if he intended in turn to either burn her remains or send her down a toboggan into a mine... :/

:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 03:47 AM
(snip) Exactly. Yet while I realize a body could never be completely incinerated using any ordinary heat source under most any circumstances, I didn't think anybody was suggesting a torch would've been used directly--rather to ignite or maintain a burning fire. I think both melting ice, or cutting a grate, are also possibilities.

:parrot:

I just figured out WHY he bought the torch! And I am not kidding! He bought it to make the S'Moures!

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 04:11 AM
Lol pixie I suggested this jokingly (re Josh using torch to melt the marshmallows,' post #51) but of course knowing in reality he purchased it the following day Monday Dec 7th--after the camping trip.

:parrot:

Bobbisangel
02-07-2010, 04:19 AM
Just a note, though the thought still sickens me to think, but since he won't show them where he went camping and the fact that he was gone and came back with chapped hands, I have often thought of this case and seems it is entirely possible to do at times without anyone even noticing?? I don't know..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4170769&page=1

I have never posted a link so if it doesn't work look up Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach I think you will find her story. Sorry newbie here :)


I don't understand how a person can burn a body in their back yard in a fire pit and not have the neighbors smell it burning. How could that be? Josh probably didn't have a fire pit and if he had tried that his neighbors no doubt would have smelled it. Wasn't it a neighbor that had been over for dinner?

LaLaw2000
02-07-2010, 04:33 AM
I don't understand how a person can burn a body in their back yard in a fire pit and not have the neighbors smell it burning. How could that be? Josh probably didn't have a fire pit and if he had tried that his neighbors no doubt would have smelled it. Wasn't it a neighbor that had been over for dinner?

O/T:

Seems they had several people over that night, Bobbisangel. This is a case I will never forget and am anxiously awaiting the trial.

LaLaw2000
02-07-2010, 04:38 AM
As I mentioned earlier, it even occurred to me that a tranquilizer might make it possible to use shrinkwrap as a murder weapon :/ (yeesh...) but then again why, when you could just poison them all in one step kwim :sheesh:

:parrot:

Hi, kiki.

Maybe Josh wrapped Susan's body tightly in the shrink wrap to transport her in the van in order to leave no scent. It would also make no mess in the van.

And I also think that Josh had either poisoned Susan or put a couple of tranquilizers in her drink at dinner.

JMO

GrandmaTo4
02-07-2010, 06:42 AM
I'm wondering if the burning of the victim in a case like this is yet another act of rage or a way to cover up just some of the evidence. In any case, I brought up the notion of cremation because it might at least raise the questions of what they're looking for. I never meant to imply complete cremation, and am glad we now know that's out of the question.

(bbm)

Sure it could be an overt act of uncontrolled - or vindictive rage, grayjay.

But do you think Josh would be acting on his rage when he also had sleeping toddlers in the car during frigid weather?

I just think at that point, Josh would be more concerned with getting the heck away from the body as fast as possible more than he'd be beating up a dead body to salve his raging anger.

He's such a weirdo, I guess it's possible he returned in the rental car to incinerate the body.

IIRC, Josh's windburned hands were evident only after the rental car trip NOT the *S'Mores adventure.* However, in my opinion, the red/raw condition of the back of Josh's hands were too mildly and uniformly *burned* to have been caused from a high temperature torch.

Unless the body was cremated completely, what evidence could be eliminated more than the act of torching the body might connect josh to the murder even more?

Trace evidence, fibers, etc., would be eliminated -- but if Susan was murdered in the house the trace evidence would not be conclusive anyway.

The Hyoid bone could be burned away which would eliminate proof of strangulation -- but a strong whack in the neck with a tree branch could also destroy the Hyoid. Incomplete torching seems like an awful lot of conspicuous work to accomplishing very little:

Identification would not be compromised.
Gunshot or stab wounds would still be detectable.
Poisoning would still show up in the toxicology testing.
I can't think of a good reason to burn the body -- and now we know Josh recently purchased an acetylene torch which would highly incriminate him IF the body was burned.

Why would Josh torch the body unless he was soooo incredibly stoopid he assumed he could easily incinerate it completely?

I don't think he did. But if he tried, at least we know he failed.

GrandmaTo4
02-07-2010, 08:18 AM
(snip, bbm) Hi grandma... For someone whose concern was that the body and it's evidence deteriorate as rapidly as possible in the wilds, s-wrap would be counterproductive. But for an OCD husband whose primary concern was getting his dead wife's body out of their home and disposed of while ensuring no forensic traces of death are left either at the scene nor inside their vehicle, rate of decomp may not have been uppermost in his mind... particularly if he intended in turn to either burn her remains or send her down a toboggan into a mine... :/ :parrot:

(bbm)

I totally agree kiki!

IF Josh used shrink wrap, I'm sure it would have been to contain and transport her body without leaving her DNA, hairs, or bodily fluids in the back of the mini-van.

If Joshua was cunning he would have dumped her body and then used a razor blade to slit and remove the shrink wrap in order to put the *Welcome sign* out for the wild carnivorous animals.

Frankly, I like the poster's idea who said that Josh stuffed Susan in a sleeping bag and then wrapped her in a tarp. Josh didn't have the luxury of time to figure out the technically safest methods of disposal.

He had a big mess on the living room floor to thoroughly clean. IF it was blood it would have been an especially time consuming and horrendous stain to clean up.

I just cannot make myself believe that Susan's murder was premeditated for more than a few hours, at most. It certainly was NOT an accident -- but was likely a simmering rage killing by a narcissistic sociopath who that day realized he was losing the last of his power and control.

Isn't it interesting that the employees at the hardware store where Josh often shopped hated to wait on him? Apparently, when Josh thought he had the upper-hand, the power, he was a *nasty, demanding bear* to work with. Can you imagine how he treated Susan behind closed doors?

I certainly hope that all the remote city dumpsters were carefully checked on the days immediately following Susan's disappearance. I'm not at all convinced that Susan was dumped in the faraway, dangerous wilderness.

It took months and months of constant landfill searching to find bits and pieces of Lori Hacking. Her mother had a total of 15 pounds of bone fragments to bury. Joshua would have been well aware of that tragic, forensics-destroying-dumping.

It seems quite evident that Josh was lazy - was a user - and had continuous problems holding a decent job. I'm hoping that his disposal of Susan will not be anymore successful than any of his other cowardly, lackluster accomplishments.

GrandmaTo4
02-07-2010, 08:54 AM
I just figured out WHY he bought the torch! And I am not kidding! He bought it to make the S'Moures!


Lol pixie I suggested this jokingly (re Josh using torch to melt the marshmallows,' post #51) but of course knowing in reality he purchased it the following day Monday Dec 7th--after the camping trip.

Hey PickieChickie and kiki,

IMO, you're RIGHT! And I'm not kidding either! _ :dance:

I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:

grayjay
02-07-2010, 09:31 AM
I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:
OK. So Josh is lazy and the boys seem to not be buying the camping trip story he wants to pass off and are wondering already where is mommy. So a trip to the hardware store and "the forest" gives them the experience of a camping trip and they'll believe they've been on a big adventure and now they understand where she is. This fits with those who said they thought he was driving around WVC a lot, too, which never made sense to me.

I wonder if he gave the boys some sweet cherry syrup so they'd sleep while he was busy, and yes, the generator would be for keeping them warm. The generator buy and the shrink wrap buy would both be signs of a planned eventuality, even if it's not planned for a specific day at that point.

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 01:57 PM
Hey PickieChickie and kiki,

IMO, you're RIGHT! And I'm not kidding either! _ :dance:

I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:

I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.

If JP purchased the cutting torch on Monday morning to use for cutting open a grate to a shut off mine or any other unusual task that would take quite some time, how would he explain this activity to the boys (who were sure to talk about it later) unless he drugged them so they were asleep?

Surely JP didn't still have Susan's body in the van after sunup! How would he explain lugging Susan's body around to the boys?

Whatever JP did with Susan's body had to have been done while it was still dark and while the boys slept, in the cover of night.

And, why would JP take all the time necessary to cut open then reseal a heavy, iron grate, something that would have been noticeable to anyone inspecting the grate in the future, when there are hundreds of other places he could have disposed of her; including dropping her down an abandoned well or pushing her off a steep cliff?

fran
02-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Maybe we're giving Josh more credit than he deserves. After all, from what I think I read, the Powells had only recently began camping. So Josh may not be all that knowledgeable about the outdoors, etc. Maybe he did just buy the torch to make smores, or to start a fire.

There was another recent case out of NC that took them a year to find the wife. Because of the vast and extensive search done, during the course of that entire year, I might add, many thought the husband had placed her in an abandond well. But, again the husband was given more credit than he deserved. When she was found, her body had just been tossed in an area that wasn't traveled much and it took someone just stumbling on her by accident.

I'm pleased to see that LE is out searching and I wish them luck. But I still feel it may be spring or summer before Susan is found.

JMHO
fran

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 02:47 PM
(bbm)

I totally agree kiki!

IF Josh used shrink wrap, I'm sure it would have been to contain and transport her body without leaving her DNA, hairs, or bodily fluids in the back of the mini-van.

If Joshua was cunning he would have dumped her body and then used a razor blade to slit and remove the shrink wrap in order to put the *Welcome sign* out for the wild carnivorous animals.

Frankly, I like the poster's idea who said that Josh stuffed Susan in a sleeping bag and then wrapped her in a tarp. Josh didn't have the luxury of time to figure out the technically safest methods of disposal.

He had a big mess on the living room floor to thoroughly clean. IF it was blood it would have been an especially time consuming and horrendous stain to clean up.

I just cannot make myself believe that Susan's murder was premeditated for more than a few hours, at most. It certainly was NOT an accident -- but was likely a simmering rage killing by a narcissistic sociopath who that day realized he was losing the last of his power and control.

Isn't it interesting that the employees at the hardware store where Josh often shopped hated to wait on him? Apparently, when Josh thought he had the upper-hand, the power, he was a *nasty, demanding bear* to work with. Can you imagine how he treated Susan behind closed doors?

I certainly hope that all the remote city dumpsters were carefully checked on the days immediately following Susan's disappearance. I'm not at all convinced that Susan was dumped in the faraway, dangerous wilderness.

It took months and months of constant landfill searching to find bits and pieces of Lori Hacking. Her mother had a total of 15 pounds of bone fragments to bury. Joshua would have been well aware of that tragic, forensics-destroying-dumping.

It seems quite evident that Josh was lazy - was a user - and had continuous problems holding a decent job. I'm hoping that his disposal of Susan will not be anymore successful than any of his other cowardly, lackluster accomplishments.

Agree w bolded GMTA (Grandma's Minds Think Alike LOL) I don't think it was blood he's more the soft kill (or poisoning) type IMO. I think it was more likely vomit (he could never have gotten every trace w/out luminol detecting, and a large bleed out would seem sufficient probable cause for LE to have made an arrest by now). In all probability he either suffocated, strangled and/or poisoned her IMO he is too OCD to do anything very messy (he was probably po'd there was any leakage of bodily fluids and went to work furiously cleaning that nite w the boys' poor mother stuffed in the back of the van inside garage). :rolleyes: :furious:

The one point I might differ w is the distance to which I believe JP was willing to travel--I do agree that he is inept, disorganized and fails to follow thru but because often (tho as we've seen not always) the more closely perp can be linked to his victim, the greater the need for "distancing" where disposal is concerned. And when it's a crime of rage caused by loss of self-control in their own home, exerting control in executing the perfect cover-up became critical. But even more importantly in this case in order to outwit everyone--but especially his wife. I believe JP had long felt inferior to Susan and grew more frustrated and jealous over the years due to Susan's friendships and superior abilities and comparative intelligence. I firmly believe he is a narcissistic sociopath whose envy consumed him. Because he is such a control freak--and murdering his wife to him the ultimate power play--I think it was for him a personal challenge from which he would have derived a great deal of satisfaction out of getting away w it and went to EXTREME lengths (w the aid of his father's advice, I feel sure) to ensure that he one-upped Susan and outsmarted his wife (and LE) and lived happily ever after, with their boys and without her... that's JMO though.

Grandma's are no slackers lol, you've got a lot of wisdom friend, hey they don't call us "grandma" for nothin :biggrin: :dance:

:grandma: :grandma:

:parrot:

nosylla
02-07-2010, 03:19 PM
Came upon this article... http://www.forensiccrimescene.com/erase-blood-evidence/ (http://www.forensiccrimescene.com/erase-blood-evidence/)

Just wonder if investigators checked his debit/credit charges or shopping receipts for Surf laundry detergent.

Just a thought. That along with his shopping excursion for the stretch wrap and the blow torch...hope they looked for Surf detergent or a detergent that contains "active oxygen".

I feel that that Sunday... it went like this. Josh... Not going to church.. planning all day the whole crime. Wanting the boys to stay home with him that day also indicates to me that he wanted to really 'bond' with the boys, knowing he was taking mommy away for good later that day. Prep the meds he was going to lace her pancakes with. That long prep time for the meal with J and Susan and the boys..

The carpet shampooer... I imagine they tested it as well.

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 05:47 PM
aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!! :eek:

grayjay
02-07-2010, 06:06 PM
aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!! :eek:
LOL Well said! If JP read that and thought he had it made in the shade, he's toast already and just doesn't know it yet. Yes in the washing machine but not really where there's a porous undercarpet and wood flooring. I've seen the blood go through a hardwood floor and into the basement below.

Yes, all you sinister people, gather ye here. :croc:

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 07:23 PM
aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!! :eek:

Me too! And, it seems like the Susan Powell discussions have come to a dead still since we aren't allowed to participate in a general discussion. I'm really disappointed about the decision to lock that down. How about you? :waitasec::banghead:

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 08:39 PM
I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.

If JP purchased the cutting torch on Monday morning to use for cutting open a grate to a shut off mine or any other unusual task that would take quite some time, how would he explain this activity to the boys (who were sure to talk about it later) unless he drugged them so they were asleep?

Surely JP didn't still have Susan's body in the van after sunup! How would he explain lugging Susan's body around to the boys?

Whatever JP did with Susan's body had to have been done while it was still dark and while the boys slept, in the cover of night.

And, why would JP take all the time necessary to cut open then reseal a heavy, iron grate, something that would have been noticeable to anyone inspecting the grate in the future, when there are hundreds of other places he could have disposed of her; including dropping her down an abandoned well or pushing her off a steep cliff?

(bbm) I responded to similar post (don't think you were reading here yet) but just want to emphasize again that children four years or as young as two, are highly suggestible, not suspicious in nature, and therefore rarely question adults but take them at their word or at face value. If daddy says "c'mon sons... we're goin camping," and daddy carries them to the family van and places them in the first row of seating in their two forward facing carseats after having stowed w/e isn't visible to them anyway in the rear cargo area at which point they all begin driving some distance into the night any point during which daddy stops, serves s'mores made w a torch but particularly after being up late and having traveled... they're just gonna think they're "camping!"

"Oh sorry boys, it's a bit of a blizzard out there... shucks you fellas are gonna have to stay inside the van where it's warm and cozy so go back to sleep while daddy takes out the tent and goes in search of wood..."

(One hour later........)

"Boys? You awake yet? Aw gee I didn't mean to wake you... daddy's hands got so cold I had to come back w/out the wood but don't you worry boys we're still camping! Isn't this a superadventure?! Too bad mommy couldn't come!"
:angel:
I mean seriously, the two year-old only recently turned two IIRC... and this is just not hard to pull off... all they see are lots of woods, trees and snow... no drugs, real firewood, or other extensive "props" necessary. Especially after being kept up much later than usual all that was needed was sufficient warmth so the boys could finally sleep (and I agree with whomever said this may also have been a reason for taking generator.)

:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 08:47 PM
(bbm) I responded to similar post (don't think you were reading here yet) but just want to emphasize again that children four years or as young as two, are highly suggestible, not suspicious in nature, and therefore rarely question adults but take them at their word or at face value. If daddy says "c'mon sons... we're goin camping," and daddy carryies them to the family van and places them in the first row of seating in their forward facing carseats after having stowed w/e isn't visible to them anyway in the rear cargo area at which point they all begin driving some distance into the night any point during which daddy stops, serves s'mores made w a torch but particularly after being up late and having traveled and provided there's sufficient heat) they're just gonna think they're "camping."

"Oh sorry boys, it's a bit of a blizzard out there... oh shucks you boys are gonna have to stay inside the van where it's warm and cozy so go back to sleep while daddy takes out the tent and goes in search of firewood..."

(One hour later........)

"Boys? You awake yet? Aw gee I didn't mean to wake you... daddy's hands got so cold I had to come back w/out the wood but don't you worry boys we're still camping! Isn't this a superadventure?! Too bad mommy couldn't come!"
:angel:
I mean seriously, the two year-old only recently turned two IIRC... and this is just not hard to pull off--provided there was sufficient warmth. (Which I agree with whomever said this may also have been a reason for taking generator.)

:parrot:

I agree it is pretty easy to fool little kids. But, you can't fool the cops. I think he wanted Susan's body out of that van as soon as possible and before daylight! Surely JP knew the children would be questioned at a later date about their activities.

I still can't figure out what he used the generator for. That's baffling!

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 08:51 PM
No doubt he went to elaborate (OCDish) lengths to fool LE--ie to prevent transfer of any trace evidence from while she was transported inside van, and to conceal his activities as much as possible.

If you're far enough out in Timbuktoo I don't imagine even first light would've been such an issue actually. In any case, I just think they would have kept the van had they been able to find anything there.

:parrot:

RayO
02-07-2010, 08:54 PM
I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.


Are you sure it was a cutting torch? For that purpose one might use a more pedestrian propane torch. A cutting torch uses other gases like acetylene and oxygen to get a much hotter flame. Only tasks like metal cutting and welding require such a hot flame.

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 08:58 PM
No doubt he went to elaborate (OCDish) lengths to fool LE--ie to prevent transfer of any trace evidence from while she was transported inside van, and to conceal his activities as much as possible.

If you're far enough out in Timbuktoo I don't imagine even first light would've been such an issue actually. In any case, I just think they would have kept the van had they been able to find anything there.

:parrot:

I was thinking he might have brought the generator and a really long, heavy duty extension cord with a drop light so he could see to put her in a cave or down a mine. Clearly he felt the need to come up with a reason to explain why he brought a generator with him. If the generator had been used before, they generally smell and I wouldn't want to take one in an enclosed vehicle for the bad fumes they put off.

Taking a generator with him to test it is about the dumbest excuse I've heard of. You buy a new generator, the first thing most people would do would be to fire it up at home to make sure it works, not put it in a van with two little kids and take it and a container of gas out in the middle of nowhere to test it!

badhorsie
02-07-2010, 09:00 PM
Why was the General Discussion shut down?:waitasec:

No offence intended-I am just curious...

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 09:02 PM
Are you sure it was a cutting torch? For that purpose one might use a more pedestrian propane torch. A cutting torch uses other gases like acetylene and oxygen to get a much hotter flame. Only tasks like metal cutting and welding require such a hot flame.

Yes, I'm sure. That's why he can make a fire in a minute! Lol!

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 09:04 PM
Why was the General Discussion shut down?:waitasec:

According to the explanation, too much valuable information was getting lost in the general discussion and we are encouraged to start new discussion topics. However, I can't figure out how to do that so it seems the general discussion is occurring here. I am very dismayed and disappointed with that decision. I don't like to have to keep jumping around from topic to topic to catch up on the discussions!

RayO
02-07-2010, 09:06 PM
Scratching my head a bit about why, apparently, they have enough to arrest Josh? If the story about this purchase is true, they have a credit card transaction in WVC for a supply not needed on a camping trip at the time he said he was away camping, on top of the general absurdity of his alibi and refusal to cooperate with any searching for his wife.

Just thinking if they arrest him, maybe they can put the screws to him a bit by showing how his alibi doesn't fit and get him to confess and reveal what he did to Susan -- so the family and friends can have a proper burial for her.

Can preserving the strength of the legal case against Josh work against the goal, arguably more important?, of finding Susan?

RayO
02-07-2010, 09:10 PM
Yes, I'm sure. That's why he can make a fire in a minute! Lol!

LOL, reminds me of this old internet video of a grill lighting demonstration done by a Purdue professor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjPxDOEdsX8

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 09:16 PM
LOL, reminds me of this old internet video of a grill lighting demonstration done by a Purdue professor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjPxDOEdsX8

And your video reminded me of this one which is hilarious! Lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omGvAuMGJN4

grayjay
02-07-2010, 09:18 PM
I was thinking he might have brought the generator and a really long, heavy duty extension cord with a drop light so he could see to put her in a cave or down a mine. Clearly he felt the need to come up with a reason to explain why he brought a generator with him. If the generator had been used before, they generally smell and I wouldn't want to take one in an enclosed vehicle for the bad fumes they put off.

Taking a generator with him to test it is about the dumbest excuse I've heard of. You buy a new generator, the first thing most people would do would be to fire it up at home to make sure it works, not put it in a van with two little kids and take it and a container of gas out in the middle of nowhere to test it!

When I think of a generator, I do think of a gas powered engine that sounds like the neighbor's lawn mower and the power from it can run a small ceramic heater, which is all he'd need to keep the van as warm as needed.

The heater would be key, and if LE found none it'd be telling. Ours takes up less than a cubic foot in space and definitely keeps us toasty. He could always just fire up the van and have heat in a few minutes and then drive home if they were too cold. But there's a reason they shut down camping at so many places in winter: there's really not much to do and the cold wears down the immune system.

PickieChickie
02-07-2010, 09:28 PM
When I think of a generator, I do think of a gas powered engine that sounds like the neighbor's lawn mower and the power from it can run a small ceramic heater, which is all he'd need to keep the van as warm as needed.

The heater would be key, and if LE found none it'd be telling. Ours takes up less than a cubic foot in space and definitely keeps us toasty. He could always just fire up the van and have heat in a few minutes and then drive home if they were too cold. But there's a reason they shut down camping at so many places in winter: there's really not much to do and the cold wears down the immune system.

But then you have the problem of where to stick the cord through? And, generators use a lot of gas! (I used to live on a remote piece of property where there was no electricity.) Keeping the van running wouldn't have cost that much more!

grayjay
02-07-2010, 09:38 PM
But then you have the problem of where to stick the cord through? And, generators use a lot of gas! (I used to live on a remote piece of property where there was no electricity.) Keeping the van running wouldn't have cost that much more!

Didn't say I thought he was good at the math, but when it comes to talking big, the generator sounds spiffy. We hate them but do know people use them in remote sites when it's cold. They don't pose a threat of CO2 poisoning like the van engine would, AFAIK. Finding a place for the cord is a relatively minor problem to solve. A window opened a little bit and sealed with a towel is all you'd need.

rd_jfc
02-07-2010, 11:17 PM
This is really interesting information. Thanks Tricia and PickieChickie (about the acetelyne torch being purchased on Monday).

I'm sure there's a ton of details I haven't read, but my general reaction to the many comments (from others) about Powell being stupid, lazy, averse to getting his hands dirty, etc. is that you are misjudging this guy. Other than the going camping at midnight forgetting what night it was being the lamest alibi in the history of silent ex's, it and everything else he has done has unfortunately been quite effective.

So far what I have seen has very strong overtones of copying what Hans Reiser did in disappearing Nina Reiser. Hans was also a programmer like Josh (as am I). There is also a strong overtone of Scott Peterson here as well. I don't doubt Powell planned this carefully.

The Saturday morning photog event with Josh getting himself in pictures with Susan using his camera hung around his neck is to me carefully staged fo the planned disappearance. That just cries out as being obviously staged for his benefit.

I also think that taking anything he did after returning home as anything but a decoy is a mistake. He would expect that the police would be examining everything he did. With both the camping trip midnight to Monday excursion, and then the rental car excursion, I believe he was carving out as wide an area as possible to make searching as difficult as possible.

That would also be the reason for the plastic wrap in my opinion, both to keep any forensic evidence being left in their SUV and to make it as difficult as possible to detect her body. With the very chapped hands and the long amount of time gone during the time Susan disappeared, and with his landscaping orientation, I'm pretty sure he buried her just as Hans did.

What could Powell be doing buying an acetylene torch after Susan is reported missing? I'm assuming it goes along with that long rental car drive. Probably to make people think what they're thinking, and have to think about checking every closed up mine in the state. And probably she's buried in a depression in the sand somewhere.

Although I don't think the acetylene torch had anything to do with cremating Susan, (and Powell would be very wary of being seen/followed in returning to the scene of the crime), concerning the cremation of a disappeared woman, in addition to the despicable crime of Steven Avery cremating Teresa Halbach in his Wisconsin auto salvage yard, which one can understand would be harder to detect, there's the unbelievably sad cremation of the pregnant Maria Lauterbach by Cesar Laurean in his backyard in North Carolina off base housing. The remains of Maria were found in a pit in Laurean's back yard.

Concerning legitimate use of the plastic shrink wrap, in a former life when I still owned a house :P I kept plastic sheeting around for among other things landscaping, to lay under wood chips, gravel, stones, etc. to keep weeds from growing up through. So obviously is something he could be buying legitimately and not a smoking gun, but much more effective than a smoking gun, as we have found out all too well from these silent ex's.

rd

rd_jfc
02-07-2010, 11:24 PM
I never saw in this thread that generator was purchased, but is being discussed as if it was. For example, was not listed as when it was purchased like the plastic wrap and torch.

Did I miss about it being purchased?

rd

grayjay
02-07-2010, 11:33 PM
Concerning legitimate use of the plastic shrink wrap, in a former life when I still owned a house :P I kept plastic sheeting around for among other things landscaping, to lay under wood chips, gravel, stones, etc. to keep weeds from growing up through. So obviously is something he could be buying legitimately and not a smoking gun, but much more effective than a smoking gun, as we have found out all too well from these silent ex's.

rd
Very interesting connection here. We use black poly to preserve the top layer of wood chips, sod etc when digging out sprinkler lines so we can replace everything with as little disturbance as possible to the landscape, too.

kiki the parrot
02-07-2010, 11:38 PM
No argument here rd_jfc... exacting revenge is no doubt the one thing at which JP excelled. :loser:

:parrot:

jmarple
02-07-2010, 11:44 PM
Could the torch have served a dual purpose? If he was carrying gasoline for the generator, he might have poured it on the body and set it on fire with the torch. Later, he used the torch for s'mores. This is so morbid.

pudd
02-08-2010, 12:16 AM
Can preserving the strength of the legal case against Josh work against the goal, arguably more important?, of finding Susan?

RayO, while we would all like to see Susan restored to her family, it's quite likely that in all his bumbling around Josh has managed to put her somewhere that she may not be found. (Let's face it, while we'd love Susan to be alive, I think that hope is rather thin.)

If that's the case, LE will have to have a better-than-watertight case to be able to indict Josh. I feel that the best thing we can do for Susan is to make sure her killer is put away for ever, and can't influence her kids anymore.

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 12:26 AM
RayO, while we would all like to see Susan restored to her family, it's quite likely that in all his bumbling around Josh has managed to put her somewhere that she may not be found. (Let's face it, while we'd love Susan to be alive, I think that hope is rather thin.)

If that's the case, LE will have to have a better-than-watertight case to be able to indict Josh. I feel that the best thing we can do for Susan is to make sure her killer is put away for ever, and can't influence her kids anymore.

Why is it Mr. Cox was reported by the Salt Lake Tribune as having made an entry on the wall of the Facebook group "Friends and Family of Susan Powell" a few days ago that he believes Susan is still alive? This just baffles me.

Why isn't the family spreading around a poster with Josh Powell's face and photos of the family van and the rental car trying to find that one person who saw Josh Powell between 5:00 PM on Sunday, December 6, 2009 and 5:00 PM on Monday, December 7, 2009?

We don't even know if Josh really went sledding! And why don't they want to put any effort into finding a witness who saw Josh turn onto that desolate gravel road or pulled off on the side of the road with the back hatch to the van open?

This really baffles me! Oh, I know why. They are afraid they won't get to see their grandsons! Welll, they AREN'T getting to see their grandsons so what is going on here?

Why are they spreading Susan's face all over when good chances are nobody saw her that night because she was in the back of JP's van covered with a blanket!

Tricia
02-08-2010, 12:36 AM
Why is it Mr. Cox was reported by the Salt Lake Tribune as having made an entry on the wall of the Facebook group "Friends and Family of Susan Powell" a few days ago that he believes Susan is still alive? This just baffles me.

Why isn't the family spreading around a poster with Josh Powell's face and photos of the family van and the rental car trying to find that one person who saw Josh Powell between 5:00 PM on Sunday, December 6, 2009 and 5:00 PM on Monday, December 7, 2009?

We don't even know if Josh really went sledding! And why don't they want to put any effort into finding a witness who saw Josh turn onto that desolate gravel road or pulled off on the side of the road with the back hatch to the van open?

This really baffles me! Oh, I know why. They are afraid they won't get to see their grandsons! Welll, they AREN'T getting to see their grandsons so what is going on here?

Why are they spreading Susan's face all over when good chances are nobody saw her that night because she was in the back of JP's van covered with a blanket!

You can't expect the family to do Police Work. And they ARE doing a lot to keep Susan's name out there and the details of the case as well.

Her case is on the news and in the paper constantly.

Also, we do not know what the police asked the family to do and not to do.

Please do not be harsh on Susan's family. They are loving, caring and devastated. The last thing they need is a stranger criticizing them in a way that makes it appear they are not doing enough.

mysticrose
02-08-2010, 02:55 AM
Josh bought the cutting torch after Susan went missing but at the time he purchased it I don't believe he would have known everybody and their dog where looking for them. Then when he came back, he got the rental car and left the kids with his sister I think and was gone for about 24 hours right ?

The only other thing I could suspect the cutting torch to be used for would be to dismember a body I don't even like to type that but it would be quick and not as messy as other means as the cuts would be cauterized ..I am sorry to be graphic .

GrandmaTo4
02-08-2010, 10:24 AM
The more I think about it, the more I disbelieve the whole cutting torch story. Apparently at least one of the rumors of the cutting torch purchase came from a poster on the ksl.com comments Site. As we all know, posters often tell tall tales -- and love the attention some sensational juicy bit of news can garner them. :waitasec:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true

Quote from kls.com - my bolding

"2:20pm - Sun Jan 31st, 2010
@Big Dog Mom - Funny you should mention mine shaft. Susan dissapeared shortly after the nutty putty situation. An aquaintance of mine works at air gas in SLC. Josh purchased a cutting torch on his credit card on the Monday morning he said he was camping. The police have a copy of the receipt and can prove he lied about the camping trip. Josh's friend made note to the media that Josh had wind burned hands on Tuesday. That was not wind burn but torch burn from the cutting torch. Should someone be looking in old sealed off mine shafts for Susan? The cutting torch would have been needed to access the sealed shafts. Josh could be pretty sure these sealed off shafts would not be checked. Ever."

1) Would Joshua be even more of a dimwit than we already think he is and put a $300 cutting torch on HIS CREDIT CARD in Salt Lake City and then tell LE he was camping in the wilderness west desert?

2) Purchasing the torch in SLC on Monday morning wouldn't have given Josh much time to do anything nefarious with the torch and still be home late Monday afternoon.

3) Is it reasonable to believe that Josh still had Susan's body in the mini-van on Monday morning when he purchased the cutting torch so he could access a mine shaft to dump her?

4) What did Josh do with his two boys while he was supposedly cutting open grills on old mine shafts? Or when he was doing anything else evil with the torch? Remember, it's Monday daylight.

5) If Josh returned with a generator and a cutting torch in his van when he was supposed to be innocently *S'More-camping* with toddler boys and Mommy was MISSING -- wouldn't the police confiscate the generator and cutting torch immediately?

6) If the torch wasn't confiscated would Josh be so brazen to take a cutting torch with him in the rental van when he really had no way of knowing if he would be followed?

7) Burned hands from an acetylene cutting torch do NOT look like chapped windburned hands.

8) It takes skill, experience, energy and perseverance to successfully operate an acetylene cutting torch. Does anyone believe Josh has those characteristics?

In case anyone doesn't know the difference between a little handheld soldering type torch and a CUTTING torch, click on the links. Notice, they're big and NOT cheap.

Portable torch:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65818&xcamp=google&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&zmam=33951326&zmas=12&zmac=112&zmap=65818

Normal size torch:
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/maintenance/welding/oxyacetylene/uniweld-centurion-metal-stand-tanks-cwb?utm_source=google_pr&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Oxyacetylene-Kits-google_pr&infoParam.campaignId=T9F

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 12:02 PM
The more I think about it, the more I disbelieve the whole cutting torch story. Apparently at least one of the rumors of the cutting torch purchase came from a poster on the ksl.com comments Site. As we all know, posters often tell tall tales -- and love the attention some sensational juicy bit of news can garner them. :waitasec:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9522814&comments=true

Portable torch:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65818&xcamp=google&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&zmam=33951326&zmas=12&zmac=112&zmap=65818

Normal size torch:
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/maintenance/welding/oxyacetylene/uniweld-centurion-metal-stand-tanks-cwb?utm_source=google_pr&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Oxyacetylene-Kits-google_pr&infoParam.campaignId=T9F

What's the Difference: Torches
Discover the difference between propane vs. propylene gas torches for homebuilders, remodelers and plumbers
by Rob Yagid

There are three primary fuel options for torches used to solder or braze metal: propane, propylene, and acetylene.

Acetylene is expensive, burns extremely hot, and is available only in large, refillable tanks. It’s best suited for professional plumbers and those who solder and braze thousands of joints a year.

For homebuilders and remodelers who are in only occasional need of a torch, propane- or propylene-fueled units might be a better option.

Propane: With a flame temperature in air of roughly 3450F, propane burns cooler than propylene. This can be a weakness or a strength, depending on the experience of the person using the torch.

Pros
• Inexpensive
• Less likely to overheat a joint or ignite surrounding materials
• Suitable for soldering pipe 1/8 in. to 1 in. in dia., making it an economical option for basic plumbing jobs
• Considered a forgiving torch for less skilled tradesmen and apprentices

Cons
• Takes longer to get metal hot enough to melt solder
• Does not burn hot enough to braze, which creates much stronger connections
• Can’t be used to solder large pipe and fittings
• Might not be possible to solder pipe that still contains some water, which steals heat

Cost
$3 per 16.92-oz. cylinder
Propylene

Manufacturers that once supplied MAPP gas, which has been discontinued, are now pushing propylene fuel. It has many of the same attributes as MAPP gas, including a higher price tag. However, that cost buys you greater performance.

Pros
• Has a flame temperature in air of roughly 3600F, so it can be used to braze metal
• Burns hot enough to overcome the thermal effects of small amounts of water in plumbing lines, making it great for remodeling tasks
• Heats pipe and fittings 20% to 24% faster than propane, decreasing overall labor time
• Suitable for soldering or brazing pipe 1/8 in. to 3 in. in dia.

Cons
• Expensive
• Less forgiving than propane in terms of safety and technique

Cost
$9 per 16.92-oz. cylinder
Photo: Rodney Diaz
From Fine Homebuilding 208, pp. 80
November 12, 2009

ACETYLENE:
Acetylene is the primary fuel for oxy-fuel welding and is the fuel of choice for repair work and general cutting and welding. Acetylene gas is shipped in special cylinders designed to keep the gas dissolved. The cylinders are packed with porous materials (e.g. kapok fibre, diatomaceous earth, or (formerly) asbestos), then filled to around 50% capacity with acetone, as acetylene is acetone soluble. This method is necessary because above 207 kPa (30 lbf/in) (absolute pressure) acetylene is unstable and may explode.

There is about 1700 kPa (250 lbf/in) pressure in the tank when full. Acetylene when combined with oxygen burns at a temperature of 3200 C to 3500 C (5800 F to 6300 F), highest among commonly used gaseous fuels. As a fuel acetylene's primary disadvantage, in comparison to other fuels, is high cost.

As acetylene is unstable at a pressure roughly equivalent to 33 feet/10 meters underwater, water submerged cutting and welding is reserved for hydrogen rather than acetylene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxy-fuel_welding_and_cutting
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/CMS/uploadedImages/Fine_Homebuilding/Articles/208/021208080_ld.jpg
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/tools/departments/what-is-the-difference/torches-propane-vs-propylene-gas.aspx

grayjay
02-08-2010, 12:10 PM
I don't know which stories are true, but I know he mentioned the generator himself. If he'd take a generator camping, then he's not much of a winter camper and as others have said not even much of a camper at all. A guy that would take a generator camping would be the same kind that would use a small torch to light a campfire. Both items could have other uses, as could a sled. Good ole Josh isn't proving to be mister nice guy after all. The shrink wrap points to a more sinister combination of these things for me, but we are still talking about things in the abstract so far. I too want to hope Susan is still alive.

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 12:25 PM
I don't know which stories are true, but I know he mentioned the generator himself. If he'd take a generator camping, then he's not much of a winter camper and as others have said not even much of a camper at all. A guy that would take a generator camping would be the same kind that would use a small torch to light a campfire. Both items could have other uses, as could a sled. Good ole Josh isn't proving to be mister nice guy after all. The shrink wrap points to a more sinister combination of these things for me, but we are still talking about things in the abstract so far. I too want to hope Susan is still alive.

Since there are three standard types of gas torches, two of which are handheld and pictured in my post below, it very well may be the person who learned about the torch purchase added the word "cutting" to the description, without realizing the difference and which made the purchase more suspicious.

Acetylene torches, aka cutting torches, require an additional tank as Grandma posted a photo of below where as the other two types do not. I am assuming he purchased the handheld variety and not an actual cutting torch.

If he indeed purchased a $300.00 plus acetylene aka cutting torch on Monday morning, the 7th of December, that is HIGHLY suspicious and wouldn't have been a purchase to start a fire or roast marshmallows for S'Moures.

Also, generators are pretty loud, unless he purchased one of those $1000.00 "really quiet" handheld portable types which I doubt but could be a possibility:http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=play

mysticrose
02-08-2010, 12:30 PM
Here is the website for Air Gas in SLC mentioned above where Josh possibly bought the cutting torch, looks like only one location sells out of their location in Salt Lake City:

http://www.airgas.com/home.aspx?cat=0

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 12:34 PM
Here is the website for Air Gas in SLC mentioned above where Josh possibly bought the cutting torch, looks like only one location sells out of their location in Salt Lake City:

http://www.airgas.com/home.aspx?cat=0 I think you should call the store and ask them what style torch Josh Powell purchased on December 7, 2009. It's not against the law to ask! Lol!

grayjay
02-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Not the store for the marshmallow toasting, fire starting torch. Those are from Walmart or Sears. I don't hope this is true, but it's not about marshmallows. Looks like he may have skipped a safety lesson, and without gloves the heat dried out his hands a lot. They say wear gloves, but some people have to learn everything the hard way.

rd_jfc
02-08-2010, 01:51 PM
ok, I see. I thought the purchases were from the same confirmed source but only the plastic wrap is from the confirmed source. Handheld torch from a post somewhere and generator from a statement he made.

thanks for the clarification.

rd

Mesmerized
02-08-2010, 01:58 PM
Does anybody know where the boys were when JP drove several hundred miles in the rental car? Were they with him on this second adventure, or being watched by friends/family?

(Sorry, I don't know how to start a new thread.)

GrandmaTo4
02-08-2010, 01:59 PM
Agree w bolded GMTA (Grandma's Minds Think Alike LOL) I don't think it was blood he's more the soft kill (or poisoning) type IMO. I think it was more likely vomit (he could never have gotten every trace w/out luminol detecting, and a large bleed out would seem sufficient probable cause for LE to have made an arrest by now). In all probability he either suffocated, strangled and/or poisoned her IMO he is too OCD to do anything very messy (he was probably po'd there was any leakage of bodily fluids and went to work furiously cleaning that nite w the boys' poor mother stuffed in the back of the van inside garage). :rolleyes: :furious:

The one point I might differ w is the distance to which I believe JP was willing to travel--I do agree that he is inept, disorganized and fails to follow thru but because often (tho as we've seen not always) the more closely perp can be linked to his victim, the greater the need for "distancing" where disposal is concerned. And when it's a crime of rage caused by loss of self-control in their own home, exerting control in executing the perfect cover-up became critical. But even more importantly in this case in order to outwit everyone--but especially his wife. I believe JP had long felt inferior to Susan and grew more frustrated and jealous over the years due to Susan's friendships and superior abilities and comparative intelligence. I firmly believe he is a narcissistic sociopath whose envy consumed him. Because he is such a control freak--and murdering his wife to him the ultimate power play--I think it was for him a personal challenge from which he would have derived a great deal of satisfaction out of getting away w it and went to EXTREME lengths (w the aid of his father's advice, I feel sure) to ensure that he one-upped Susan and outsmarted his wife (and LE) and lived happily ever after, with their boys and without her... that's JMO though.

Grandma's are no slackers lol, you've got a lot of wisdom friend, hey they don't call us "grandma" for nothin :biggrin: :dance:

:grandma: :grandma:

:parrot:

Thanks kiki! I've noticed that we agree on almost everything. I've been enjoying your wisdom - your articulate, interesting posts ever since I returned to WS to follow the sad Powell case. Thank you for many excellent, intelligent reads! :clap:

About the possible blood on the living room carpeting - I agree with you that Josh is much more likely to be a soft-kill type killer. The only reason I mentioned the blood is because a well known and often correct crime-blogger claims she has reliable inside information that blood WAS found in the Powell home. However, she didn't know the amount of blood. (The website link is not allowed on WS)

I agree that if LE had determined there was a large amount of blood cleaned up from the living room carpeting, Josh would probably have been arrested by now.

Natch, I agree with everything in your post. I just probably might believe Josh is lazier and more chicken than you might. If there was a nicely secluded, well used remote dumpster around, I wouldn't be surprised if he tossed Susan in as fast as he could drive there.

Growing up in Puyallup, Joshua wouldn't have had much experience driving on icy roads during blizzard conditions; and I don't know that living in the SLC burbs would provide him with enough ice/snow-driving experience to brave that night's dangerous roads for such a long distance.

I'm not so sure he would have risked driving in a blizzard to the west desert with a dead body in the back of the min-van and two small, tired, fussy boys in the middle seats. Sooo much could have gone wrong.

You never know what desperate killers will do, though. Scott Peterson launched a 16 foot aluminum fishing boat onto the windy, choppy unpredictable San Francisco Bay to dump the wife he had just murdered. Sixteen foot boats in the SF Bay are very RARE anytime - but especially in the winter.

It's obvious that Susan was so much more intelligent than Josh - so much more of a go-getter - and so much better liked and respected by all their friends than Joshua was.

That's one of the reasons I'm mystified that none of their friends put out an all-points-bulletin-flyer regarding Josh and his mini-vans' whereabouts on Dec. 6th, 7th, and 9th, 10th. Josh's spur of the moment, middle-of-the-night, blizzard, S'More camping trip alibi has to be one of the most farcical in the history of wife-murderers.

The Powell's friends must realize the likely blatant lies of Josh's alibi -- yet no one attempts to find out his real locations during and right after the time Susan disappeared. Very strange! Very sad!

I too believe that Josh's daddy is privy to all of Josh's murderous behavior. I hope LE nails him along with Josh. They're two peas in a pod and have both spent a great portion of their lives making two good women miserable. At least daddy didn't kill his torture victim.

Congratulations, kiki on your new granddaughter! _ :dance: _ Aren't they great? I was GrandmaTo4 in 2003 but I'm Grammy to 6 now. Grandkids are the only things nice about getting old, LOL. :D

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 02:10 PM
Does anybody know where the boys were when JP drove several hundred miles in the rental car? Were they with him on this second adventure, or being watched by friends/family?

(Sorry, I don't know how to start a new thread.)

JP left the boys with his sister and brother-in-law, Jennifer and Kirk Graves, both of whom have been interviewed on national TV.

I find it suspicious that he didn't take the boys with him. The car was rented on December 9 or 10, 2009 and returned 24 hours later.

Why would JP leave his boys, who could be questioned by Kirk, Jennifer, a social worker or law enforcement?

It is my opinion whatever he did while he had the rental car was something he didn't want the boys to see. Why else would he risk leaving the boys where they could blurt out information or be questioned?

Also, since he lost his job and no longer had Susan's income, why did he feel he had the money to rent a car when he could have waited for the van to be returned or borrowed a car from his mother or a friend, or asked someone to drive him wherever he needed to go!

grayjay
02-08-2010, 02:25 PM
I just probably might believe Josh is lazier and more chicken than you might. If there was a nicely secluded, well used remote dumpster around, I wouldn't be surprised if he tossed Susan in as fast as he could drive there.

I gather that Josh purchased many things and well may have been a hoarder. For all the stuff he removed from the house and it looked like more of his than hers, I'm guessing he had lots of big ideas and plans and energy at least to buy things for the workshop and storage shed. When I have no energy the last thing I'm up to do is go buy more stuff.

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 02:28 PM
I gather that Josh purchased many things and well may have been a hoarder. For all the stuff he removed from the house and it looked like more of his than hers, I'm guessing he had lots of big ideas and plans and energy at least to buy things for the workshop and storage shed. When I have no energy the last thing I'm up to do is go buy more stuff.

I too noticed the garage was disorganized and jammed full of stuff when the forensic team was taking things out of the garage.

In FACT, I didn't see how the van could be parked in there at all (unless I'm thinking of the moving footage.)

Mesmerized
02-08-2010, 02:51 PM
JP left the boys with his sister and brother-in-law, Jennifer and Kirk Graves, both of whom have been interviewed on national TV.

I find it suspicious that he didn't take the boys with him. The car was rented on December 9 or 10, 2009 and returned 24 hours later.

Why would JP leave his boys, who could be questioned by Kirk, Jennifer, a social worker or law enforcement?

It is my opinion whatever he did while he had the rental car was something he didn't want the boys to see. Why else would he risk leaving the boys where they could blurt out information or be questioned?

Also, since he lost his job and no longer had Susan's income, why did he feel he had the money to rent a car when he could have waited for the van to be returned or borrowed a car from his mother or a friend, or asked someone to drive him wherever he needed to go!

*************
The Graves, that's what I thought but couldn't find it. Thanks!

I believe the older boy had ALREADY been questioned by LE, so he may have felt there was no greater risk in the boys spending time with the Graves family.

Agree that WHATEVER he did with the rental car was clearly something he felt was so urgent that it couldn't wait until he got his van back AND that couldn't be witnessed by the children or another driver.

JMHO - An innocent man whose wife had just disappeared (and a truly caring father) would not leave his young children's sides under those circumstances unless it was absolutely necessary - to physically search for her, or to be interviewed by law enforcement, etc. When you've suddenly lost a family member, you protect and/or reassure the ones who are left. You don't drop them off with someone else and disappear yourself for 24 hours.

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 03:13 PM
*************

JMHO - An innocent man whose wife had just disappeared (and a truly caring father) would not leave his young children's sides under those circumstances unless it was absolutely necessary - to physically search for her, or to be interviewed by law enforcement, etc. When you've suddenly lost a family member, you protect and/or reassure the ones who are left. You don't drop them off with someone else and disappear yourself for 24 hours.

Exactly! By now the boys know their mother is missing because they have spent every day from birth with her in their lives. Now JP leaves them with their aunt? If I were a little kid, I would have been afraid my daddy would disappear just like my mommy did! That must have traumatized the boys if they were aware of what was going on.

JP did say, when interviewed by Chris Jones AFTER returning from the rental car jaunt, when asked what he had told the boys, that he hadn't told them anything but that they had overheard conversations about their mother being missing.

I have to wonder what story he has told the boys and what upsetting and confusing conversations they have overheard since Susan's disappearance.

Someone stated they observed the five-year-old at a function in Puyallup, Washington, that he appeared to act a lot younger than his age. Well, it is a known fact that children will revert to younger behavior when traumatized by a move. So, the fact the boy's mother is missing, on top of the move, has certainly traumatized the children.

Then, to top it off, JP leaves the boys in Washington with his father making them worry again that he will disappear! It is obvious he didn't bring them because he would have had to have someone babysit them while he worked on the house and he didn't want people asking them questions or them blurting out information that he is trying to keep secret.

kiki the parrot
02-08-2010, 04:45 PM
Yes Pickie... the whole situaton for these two little boys is just totally heartbreaking. http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/jh4ce/emoticon/12.gif

:parrot:

kiki the parrot
02-08-2010, 04:53 PM
Congratulations, kiki on your new granddaughter! _ :dance: _ Aren't they great? I was GrandmaTo4 in 2003 but I'm Grammy to 6 now. Grandkids are the only things nice about getting old, LOL. :D

(snip, bbm) Thanks grandma :) I happen to have one still very young child (pulling up the rear lol) and grandchildren :crazy: and yes certainly they, and the wisdom which is (thankfully, theoretically, hopefully, ideally, mercifully, occasionally!?!!) it's byproduct are the benefits which come w age lol... I agree being young is hugely overrated... lolol!! :dance: :biggrin: :bananapowerslide:

:parrot:

GrandmaTo4
02-08-2010, 05:26 PM
Not the store for the marshmallow toasting, fire starting torch. Those are from Walmart or Sears. I don't hope this is true, but it's not about marshmallows. Looks like he may have skipped a safety lesson, and without gloves the heat dried out his hands a lot. They say wear gloves, but some people have to learn everything the hard way.

Gee, you can't wear just any ol' gloves, grayjay. My best friend's husband is a retired steelworker. He built bridges. The gloves he had to wear were very thick and heavy. They're made from special leather, lined with some burn proof material and they go all the way up to the elbows.

Those red, chapped hands Josh had were not caused by any acetylene torch flame. They would have been 100 times worse and not so uniformly even. I've seen acetylene torch burns on my friend's husband and they're really nasty. Even a propane torch burn doesn't look like Josh's pinky-colored-burn. Also, hand cream doesn't make any gas flame burn feel or look any better.

When I first started reading about Josh's purchase of a torch, I assumed it was one the little torches all homeowners have around for plumbing jobs, etc. That's not the kind of torch they're talking about.

You're right grayjay! One would not buy a marshmallow melting torch at AirGas.

I still think the whole 'acetylene cutting torch' thing is a hoax.

kiki the parrot
02-08-2010, 05:34 PM
ETA I'm having a tough time believing Josh would have risked being missing for such an inordinate length of time--on both occasions--had it not been necessary. This is what's led me to believe JP did in fact travel some distance, first in the van and subsequently in rental car.

Of course the length of his first absence may have been necessary to allow sufficient time for a Phantom Intruder to have come and gone w his wife... but it seems evident from the carpet steamer and fans, that he did not intend for her to be discovered "missing" during his absence and would have returned sooner if he possibly could have.

As for second trip I do agree JP would never have risked leaving his boys--in those first critical hours after learning of their mother's disappearance, and during which time they could have said something incriminating--were it not both a matter of extreme urgency and to which he couldn't afford to have witnesses accompany him.

Has JP ever provided any explanation for his sudden disappearance? Maybe he did, and I've forgotten but like Pickie said it is totally crazy... you've just learned your wife's missing--the mother of your children--and you leave them and take off... I mean c'mon who does this?!?? :shakehead:

The thing that worries me is that, other than attending his wife's vigil :rolleyes: JP doesn't really seem overly concerned about public opinion or how bad any of this looks and I would go as far as to say has now written the book on how to look as guilty as #ell.

Refusing from early on to work w LE, packing up and fleeing WVC, and holing up w dad... either he is really confident... really foolish... or likely a little of both.


:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 05:42 PM
Has JP ever provided any explanation for his sudden disappearance?

Refusing from early on to work w LE, packing up and fleeing WVC, and holing up w dad... either he's really confident... really foolish... or likely a little of both.


:parrot:

I do agree with Josh's decision to vacate the West Valley City house simply for the fact that the boys didn't need to be traumatized by the media constantly banging on their door, ringing the bell, sitting in vehicles in the street and ambushing them on shopping trips, etc.

I do think it is a good thing the boys are in a home located in a gated community which has provided them with a sense of security.

I don't, however, agree with the boys being in JP's custody or living with JP's father.

The best thing for the boys right now would to be with their grandparents, Chuck and Judy Cox, or with their aunt and uncle, Jennifer and Kirk Graves, in my opinion.

No, JP has NEVER given anyone an explanation of where he went during the 24 hours he drove the rental car several hundred miles.

nitasch
02-08-2010, 05:46 PM
I don't think so but he could have been digging in the snow trying to find items he left somewhere in the woods that he didn't want to bring back with him in the van after the camping trip. I am certain he would have felt uncomfortable buying or borrowing gloves, digging tools, etc. after Susan's disappearance for fear of drawing suspicion to himself. Why would a person deliberately expose their hands to the cold to the point the skin was so damaged they had to keep applying lotion to them unless they felt they had no choice! Hands don't get windburn if they are kept inside jacket pockets or sleeves are pulled down over them. And why would he continue to expose them when the pain set in unless he absolutely felt he must continue what he was doing. The red hands are VERY suspicious to me!

I know this is OT for this particular thread, but it has come up over and over on many threads so I thought I would chime in since I am officially CAUGHT up with this case here.

I live part time in Utah, I have three people in my family that suffer through winter looking like their hands are burned. The cold, the lack of humidity and the dry heat in our houses and work places this time of year, just trash your skin.

I rarely NEED to use lotion on my hands except during the winter...my father on the other hand has to sleep with a heavy duty lotion (like silicone glove etc) and plastic gloves just to keep his hands from bleeding during the winter, same with my brother and one sister.

I am not defending JP...actually I have thought he was responsible from day one, I am only trying to put a little balance in the red hands. He very well COULD have been digging in the snow bare handed....but he may just suffer from the extremes up here in this wonderful (sarcastic) state.

kiki the parrot
02-08-2010, 05:47 PM
There is no innocent or reasonable explanation for either his fleeing the home in which one last saw their wife alive and to which you have any expectation of her ever returning--nor from the community in which you need to be working w LE to bring her home safely.

The children need to be away from both JP and SP--and placed w the Coxes--permanently.

:parrot:

GrandmaTo4
02-08-2010, 05:48 PM
I gather that Josh purchased many things and well may have been a hoarder. For all the stuff he removed from the house and it looked like more of his than hers, I'm guessing he had lots of big ideas and plans and energy at least to buy things for the workshop and storage shed. When I have no energy the last thing I'm up to do is go buy more stuff.

Buying the stuff is pretty easy. It's the USING the stuff that takes the real energy and perseverance.

Notice, Josh wants to finish the deck and the basement before he rents the house. He's been living in the house five years with all those "things, tools and supplies" purchased already but the finishing has NOT been done.

Some people are compulsive buyers. Josh did a pretty good job of going bankrupt with $200,000 in debts ... much of it from credit card debt.

Just as he's good at buying tools, materials, etc., and not using them -
he's just as good at buying them but not paying for them. _ :loser:

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 05:54 PM
I am not defending JP...actually I have thought he was responsible from day one, I am only trying to put a little balance in the red hands. He very well COULD have been digging in the snow bare handed....but he may just suffer from the extremes up here in this wonderful (sarcastic) state.

I appreciate your information as it was quite helpful. However, Tim Peterson, JP's long time friend and neighbor said, during a TV interview, "He had the worst case of windburned hands I've ever seen" and "he kept putting lotion on them".

I would assume, if JP had a skin problem as you've described, and was sensitive to the winter weather, Tim Peterson wouldn't have even thought about mentioning the red hands because it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary for JP to have this problem.

The fact Tim Peterson brought it up during the TV interview indicates to me that he (Peterson) was very suspicious about the red hands or he would have most likely either not mentioned them or said something to the effect that the redness was something JP has had problems with in the past.

I do not know, of course, what caused the redness but it is VERY suspicious to me that it showed up AFTER he rented the car and was not a result of whatever he was doing during the time he left the house on Sunday night and returned on Monday evening, December 7, 2009 at 5:00 PM.

Also, if he were to have horrible problems with his hands getting so dried out they cracked and bled, one would think the guy would always be putting lotion on his hands and would definately wear gloves. There is not one photo or news video which shows him wearing gloves, and there are many photos and videos which were taken on different days.

grayjay
02-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Yes, he's caught red-handed. I do remember from the old days ice skating and then standing next to a bonfire with exposed hands, it will cause this sort of thing. It can be a combination of very cold hands and then hot dry heat on hands that have become slightly numb from the cold.

GrandmaTo4
02-08-2010, 07:26 PM
<<snip>>

The thing that worries me is that, other than attending his wife's vigil :rolleyes: JP doesn't really seem overly concerned about public opinion or how bad any of this looks and I would go as far as to say has now written the book on how to look as guilty as #ell.

Refusing from early on to work w LE, packing up and fleeing WVC, and holing up w dad... either he is really confident... really foolish... or likely a little of both.
:parrot:

I'd bet he's simply a very, very dim narcissistic sociopath, kiki.

From what I understand, these unfortunate characters have no empathy, no conscience, no true understanding about how to act appropriately, especially in new or unusual social situations. They must take their cues from observing others. Eventually many become excellent mimics.

I guess poor Joshua hasn't had the opportunity to learn up close and personal from another wife-murderer's more successful behavior. His mimicking in this situation is sorely lacking

Death Row resident, Golden-Boy Scott Peterson had exactly the same problem. _ :D

nitasch
02-08-2010, 07:43 PM
PickieChickie,

As I said, he very well could have been out diggin in the snow without gloves...

But then again, with Mr. Peterson....his "hinky" meter went off from the word go in this case. He has been the most outspoken person against JP from the first day, with good cause. But, this may lead him to look at everything with suspicion as far as JP is concerned. WHich is not a bad thing mind you, but could lead to reading into to something that is actually unrelated.

I guess I only mentioned it, because it seems to be the least important "hint" that may be something completely unrelated in this case (dry hands not burned hands). Not that there needs to be more to point guilt in the right direction.. I appreciate your input and your response!

kiki the parrot
02-08-2010, 08:11 PM
I'd bet he's simply a very, very dim narcissistic sociopath, kiki.

From what I understand, these unfortunate characters have no empathy, no conscience, no true understanding about how to act appropriately, especially in new or unusual social situations. They must take their cues from observing others. Eventually many become excellent mimics.

I guess poor Joshua hasn't had the opportunity to learn up close and personal from another wife-murderer's more successful behavior. His mimicking in this situation is sorely lacking

Death Row resident, Golden-Boy Scott Peterson had exactly the same problem. _ :D

(bbm) Exactly!!

Agree grandma (shocker, right?!) I've had the misfortune of running across one or two of these characters--known a mime (or thought I did) in my time. Frankly all the sniveling and emoting we saw Josh do in the first days was more consistent w what I've come to expect from a poser, or pretender, like JP #ell I'd be mad if he didn't :rolleyes: Guess even he soon wearied of the mask and charade tho and couldn't stay in character or keep up the performances day after day--time to exit stage left and go behind the curtain and the safety of daddy's gated insular cocoon. Let's see now if daddy can keep his son out from behind real bars. Personally I think SP will be doing well to keep himself out. JMO

:behindbar :behindbar

:parrot:

diphi
02-08-2010, 08:55 PM
Yes, I'm sure. That's why he can make a fire in a minute! Lol!

Thanks for the clarification!. After doing some research I now see the difference between a cutting torch and a hand-held propane torch. I understand a cutting torch is much more heavy duty - used for cutting heavy metal, etc. as previously mentioned. The little propane torch is NOT what we're talking about - right?

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the clarification!. After doing some research I now see the difference between a cutting torch and a hand-held propane torch. I understand a cutting torch is much more heavy duty - used for cutting heavy metal, etc. as previously mentioned. The little propane torch is NOT what we're talking about - right?

The temperature of a cutting torch is about 2000 degrees hotter than a propane torch! And, when I realized that a cutting torch requires two tanks, I realized my friend wasn't using a cutting torch after all.

There is a post of mine down maybe about 12 posts or so which has links and lists the three different types of "torches", the gasses they use and so forth.

So, my friend was not using a cutting torch but a propane torch! See how confusing this all is which leads me to believe that whomever started this story that it was a cutting torch could have been confused as well because they start at $300.00 whereas the hand held torches are very inexpensive.

One would think that JP would NOT have purchased a cutting torch on Monday morning! How suspicious and stupid would that be. I honestly believe he bought a simple, hand held torch like pictured here to start a campfire to keep warm and roast marshmallows for the S'Moures.

I'm not saying I'm right but buying a cutting torch just doesn't make sense to me as doing so would have been a BIG RED FLAG on his credit card statement. Surely he realized he would be a suspect in his wife's disappearance! http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00002594.jpg

diphi
02-08-2010, 09:36 PM
The temperature of a cutting torch is about 2000 degrees hotter than a propane torch! And, when I realized that a cutting torch requires two tanks, I realized my friend wasn't using a cutting torch after all.

There is a post of mine down maybe about 12 posts or so which has links and lists the three different types of "torches", the gasses they use and so forth.

So, my friend was not using a cutting torch but a propane torch! See how confusing this all is which leads me to believe that whomever started this story that it was a cutting torch could have been confused as well because they start at $300.00 whereas the hand held torches are very inexpensive.

One would think that JP would NOT have purchased a cutting torch on Monday morning! How suspicious and stupid would that be. I honestly believe he bought a simple, hand held torch like pictured here to start a campfire to keep warm and roast marshmallows for the S'Moures.

I'm not saying I'm right but buying a cutting torch just doesn't make sense to me as doing so would have been a BIG RED FLAG on his credit card statement. Surely he realized he would be a suspect in his wife's disappearance! http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00002594.jpg


I saw your post about the different types of torches. Frankly, I can't see him puchasing any type of torch on Monday morning. I agree, he would not have purchased a cutting torch (seriously heavy-duty) because it would have been too much of a red flag. Even a little hand-held propane torch would raise all kinds of questions. If he had purchased either one, though, that would indicate that he didn't plan very well beforehand.

I don't know. The torch story is kind of sketch if you ask me.

PickieChickie
02-08-2010, 09:42 PM
I saw your post about the different types of torches. Frankly, I can't see him puchasing any type of torch on Monday morning. I agree, he would not have purchased a cutting torch (seriously heavy-duty) because it would have been too much of a red flag. Even a little hand-held propane torch would raise all kinds of questions. If he had purchased either one, though, that would indicate that he didn't plan very well beforehand.

I don't know. The torch story is kind of sketch if you ask me.

But buying a propane torch would make sense and be easily explainable. All he would have to say to explain would be that he couldn't get the campfire to start and had promised the boys a fire and S'Moures and decided to drive into town to buy a $12.00 propane torch, that he just went to a nearby area, built a fire, made S'Moures and let the boys play. That purchase would have made sense and would be no reason to draw suspicion.

I think it is highly likely that he did purchase a propane torch for that purpose, a purchase he could easily explain. But, what he can't explain is why he drove around West Valley City for two hours after being notified by Tim Peterson the police were at his house and that Susan was missing!

diphi
02-08-2010, 10:01 PM
But buying a propane torch would make sense and be easily explainable. All he would have to say to explain would be that he couldn't get the campfire to start and had promised the boys a fire and S'Moures and decided to drive into town to buy a $12.00 propane torch, that he just went to a nearby area, built a fire, made S'Moures and let the boys play. That purchase would have made sense and would be no reason to draw suspicion.

I think it is highly likely that he did purchase a propane torch for that purpose, a purchase he could easily explain. But, what he can't explain is why he drove around West Valley City for two hours after being notified by Tim Peterson the police were at his house and that Susan was missing!

Normally, a purchase like that might be explainable, but in this situation, I don't think so. His wife has been missing for awhile now.
The other thing he can't explain is that he said he went camping near the Pony Express Trail. That is a long way away from WVC. Would someone seriously drive all the way to the Pony Express Trail to go camping without a sure way to start a fire, especially with two young children? Don't think so. If anything, the puchase would be much more believable if he had bought it before the camping trip.

RubyRed
02-08-2010, 10:02 PM
It seems a few you tube video's that do not reflect well on Josh , have suddenly disappeared. This one is fairly good, music not so much. Overall it sums up events .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8udgNVodBQ

GrandmaTo4
02-09-2010, 06:12 AM
This is the ABC Interview with Chuck and Judy Cox. The video is in the upper right corner.

Nothing is new except that the Cox parents want Josh to "man-up" and start cooperating with police. They both believe Susan is still alive.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/Susan-Powells-parents-have-a-message-for-Josh/V9UjCSrVaUSnVub2mVQ9gQ.cspx

Mesmerized
02-09-2010, 10:44 AM
This is the ABC Interview with Chuck and Judy Cox. The video is in the upper right corner.

Nothing is new except that the Cox parents want Josh to "man-up" and start cooperating with police. They both believe Susan is still alive.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/Susan-Powells-parents-have-a-message-for-Josh/V9UjCSrVaUSnVub2mVQ9gQ.cspx


Keep in mind that saying it doesn't make it true. Deep down they likely suspect he killed her, just like we do, but that's a HUGE leap to make when it's your own little girl and your grandkids involved. Denial can be a very effective emotional defense mechanism.

Besides, if they come right out and say they think she's dead or he killed her they are GUARANTEED not to get cooperation from him regarding the boys OR the investigation. Whereas if they give the impression they believe he did NOT hurt her, they keep him feeling all cocky and comfortable in his skin - thinking he pulled a fast one on everybody - and more likely to slip up.

I sure hope local LE in Puyallup is keeping a watchful eye out for those boys. Would hate to see them 'relocated' when nobody's watching...

Gin
02-09-2010, 11:26 AM
This is the ABC Interview with Chuck and Judy Cox. The video is in the upper right corner.

Nothing is new except that the Cox parents want Josh to "man-up" and start cooperating with police. They both believe Susan is still alive.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/Susan-Powells-parents-have-a-message-for-Josh/V9UjCSrVaUSnVub2mVQ9gQ.cspx

I thought there was a huge change in their public attitude. They seem like they are usually kindly, soft-spoken folks, but tonight's interview showed they are worried sick and just shocked at Josh's total lack of cooperation. To me, the look on their faces says, enough is enough. We've been patient, but now we're speaking out.
The parents specifically mention that Josh has an attorney, and he continues to not cooperate with the West Valley Police. Beyond that, they are still asking to see their grandchildren, something that hasn't happened since Jan 3. Josh will only allow them to see the children at his daddy's home. The Cox's feel this is awkward. I totally understand.


I forgot to add: They showed a shot of the house, all the purple decorations are down. The reporter said Josh left Saturday night.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 12:11 PM
I forgot to add: They showed a shot of the house, all the purple decorations are down. The reporter said Josh left Saturday night.

I wonder what JP did with all the laminated hearts? Did he save some to bring back to his boys? Is there video footage or photos of JP taking down the decorations? It's quite interesting how he wasn't compelled to deal with the house until learning about the decorations.

Did JP remove all the decorations himself or did the neighbors and or ward/stake members help him?

Did JP totally gut the house, garage and yard of all the Powell's possessions? Is the house truly ready to rent? Or, was his trip to West Valley City due to becoming enraged when he learned about the house being plastered with Susan Powell missing fliers, purple hearts and ribbons, etc.?

Once again, JP is exhibiting his overpowering desire to control. Knowing full well the Cox's wouldn't accept, he has offered to allow them to see their grandchildren on his terms, something he has every right to do.

I wish the Cox's would call JP's bluff and go visit their grandchildren at Steve Powell's house.

Gin
02-09-2010, 12:20 PM
Once again, JP is exhibiting his overpowering desire to control. Knowing full well the Cox's wouldn't accept, he has offered to allow them to see their grandchildren on his terms, something he has every right to do.

I wish the Cox's would call JP's bluff and go visit their grandchildren at Steve Powell's house.

In theory I totally understand your boldened statement. In practice? I think how the Cox's are handling this is the very best way. They are walking a fine line. While they would love to see their grandchildren, they can't risk the problems that may ensure due to a visit to daddy's house. That fam has already shown itself to be of (at best) very low character. They likely wouldn't think twice about making untruthful statements of something the Cox's "said" during a visit. The safest long term policy for the Cox family is visiting on safe neutral ground (with safe witnesses) or at their home.
Down the road I think we all hope the boys will have lots of time with the ethical, loving set of grandparents.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 12:37 PM
In theory I totally understand your boldened statement. In practice? I think how the Cox's are handling this is the very best way. They are walking a fine line. While they would love to see their grandchildren, they can't risk the problems that may ensure due to a visit to daddy's house. That fam has already shown itself to be of (at best) very low character. They likely wouldn't think twice about making untruthful statements of something the Cox's "said" during a visit. The safest long term policy for the Cox family is visiting on safe neutral ground (with safe witnesses) or at their home.
Down the road I think we all hope the boys will have lots of time with the ethical, loving set of grandparents.

Here is where faith comes in. The problem should be handed to our Heavenly Father to take care of. The boys are being told, most likely, that Grandma Judy and Grandpa Chuck have been invited to come see them and they won't come over here because they don't like Grandpa Steve and Daddy. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the boys that the Cox's set aside their doubts and fears and muster up the courage to go visit their grandchildren and let a very capable and all knowing God take care of the rest.

Gin
02-09-2010, 12:41 PM
Here is where faith comes in. The problem should be handed to our Heavenly Father to take care of. The boys are being told, most likely, that Grandma Judy and Grandpa Chuck have been invited to come see them and they won't come over here because they don't like Grandpa Steve and Daddy. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the boys that the Cox's set aside their doubts and fears and muster up the courage to go visit their grandchildren and let a very capable and all knowing God take care of the rest.

In theory, your is a lovely thought. In practice, I'm sure the sweet boys missing mother had enormous faith and trust in God.

Thanks for your input-we are all wanting the little boys to be safe, and their mother to be found.

RubyRed
02-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I thought there was a huge change in their public attitude. They seem like they are usually kindly, soft-spoken folks, but tonight's interview showed they are worried sick and just shocked at Josh's total lack of cooperation. To me, the look on their faces says, enough is enough. We've been patient, but now we're speaking out.
The parents specifically mention that Josh has an attorney, and he continues to not cooperate with the West Valley Police. Beyond that, they are still asking to see their grandchildren, something that hasn't happened since Jan 3. Josh will only allow them to see the children at his daddy's home. The Cox's feel this is awkward. I totally understand.


I forgot to add: They showed a shot of the house, all the purple decorations are down. The reporter said Josh left Saturday night.

bbm Well, the decorations didn't last long, did they?

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 12:50 PM
In theory, your is a lovely thought. In practice, I'm sure the sweet boys missing mother had enormous faith and trust in God.

Thanks for your input-we are all wanting the little boys to be safe, and their mother to be found.

All the more reason for them not to feel abandoned by Grandma Judy and Grandpa Chuck.

Josh doesn't want the boys to visit unsupervised in Judy and Chuck's home.

Josh doesn't want to meet at someone's home or at a public place so the Cox's can visit with their grandchildren.

Josh does want the Cox's to come to his father's home to visit the boys.

Which statements are true? I say the third statement is false and if the Cox's call JP's bluff, Josh will most likely come up with an excuse to cancel the invitation, thus making him look bad. Right now, JP is making the Cox's look bad. It was the Cox's who declined to go to the Charlie's birthday party. I can't imagine how disappointed Charlie was over that. The grandchildren need to be shown that Grandma Judy and Grandpa Chuck will do whatever it takes to see them or they are going to suffer more psychological damage.

Let's all try to put ourselves in the grandchildren's position for a moment then perhaps we will realize that the most important thing is the effect all of this is having on them. Every day that goes by that the Cox's refuse to accept Josh's invitation to visit the boys is another day that convinces the boys that their grandparents don't love them enough to come see them. So, I think the Cox's need to set aside their fears and surge forward!

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 12:59 PM
bbm Well, the decorations didn't last long, did they?

No, they sure didn't and I hope there is a video of him taking them down that will be uploaded to YouTube or Facebook so we can see who all helped him or if he did it all himself. If I learn that one person helped him, I will be VERY, VERY disgusted.

Are we surprised by this? Not me! I'll bet he wanted to take them down the minute he arrived but due to knowing how that would look, waited until the last minute.

Isn't it interesting how JP jetted down to WVC immediately after learning the house had been decorated?

Dr.Fessel
02-09-2010, 01:14 PM
What is the address of Susan's home?

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 01:17 PM
What is the address of Susan's home?

6254 W. Sarah Circle, West Valley City, Utah
(I have a photo of the house that clearly shows the numbers.)


Apparently it is 6254 W. Sarah Circle:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=6254+w.+sarah+circle&aq=0&aqi=g1&oq=6254+w.&fp=c5aa4278f68e4a4

Dr.Fessel
02-09-2010, 01:29 PM
I am trying to find a ad for the house being rented.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 01:33 PM
I am trying to find a ad for the house being rented. Me too! Perhaps he is going to use the "word of mouth" method! Can you imagine how many people would want to set up an appointment to view the house just so they could see it because of Susan's disappearance and not because they wanted to rent it? What a mess! (No pun intended!)

UtahMom
02-09-2010, 01:34 PM
I don't believe you will find an ad. They already have tenants. It was reported on F & F FB the new tenants helped Josh complete the work in the basement. My guess would be members of the ward or friends or family.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 01:36 PM
I don't believe you will find an ad. They already have tenants. It was reported on F & F FB the new tenants helped Josh complete the work in the basement. My guess would be members of the ward or friends or family. I sure hope someone leaks a copy of the lease/rental agreement so we can read it!

badhorsie
02-09-2010, 01:48 PM
I worry a lot about those two little boys and their mental health. What are they being told about their mama's disappearance?

Gin
02-09-2010, 01:48 PM
I don't believe you will find an ad. They already have tenants. It was reported on F & F FB the new tenants helped Josh complete the work in the basement. My guess would be members of the ward or friends or family.
Guess I'm just old fashioned, but I couldn't imagine being friends or friendly to J. I worry about Susan and what happened to her too much, and I've never met her.
Good for Josh, though, that he has a circle of friends that continue to help him in so many ways. Packing, moving, finishing the basement, helping with his cash flow...I guess you either buy into the theory that Susan wouldn't have left her sweet boys voluntarily, or you don't.
I think one would have to have nerves of steel to sleep in that house, knowing the owner has keys.

grayjay
02-09-2010, 02:18 PM
I still get the feeling somebody knows a lot of things we can't know, and we're wasting our effort sleuthing on this one. When the drowning people are hitting you with their fists, I was taught to get out of the way.

Somebody please talk me down! :furious:

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 02:33 PM
I worry a lot about those two little boys and their mental health. What are they being told about their mama's disappearance? I worry about this too. I wonder what they are being told as to why they can't see their grandparents, Judy and Chuck Cox, and their aunts, uncles and cousins who live in Puyallup, people who they should be getting to know. Before the move, the reason would be, "Because they live so far away." Now what is JP telling the boys the reason is for them not being able to see these people who live within a short driving distance?

The fact JP will not allow unsupervised visits between Susan's children and Susan's parents and siblings screams that he has something to hide!

kiki the parrot
02-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Guess I'm just old fashioned, but I couldn't imagine being friends or friendly to J. I worry about Susan and what happened to her too much, and I've never met her.
Good for Josh, though, that he has a circle of friends that continue to help him in so many ways. Packing, moving, finishing the basement, helping with his cash flow...I guess you either buy into the theory that Susan wouldn't have left her sweet boys voluntarily, or you don't.
I think one would have to have nerves of steel to sleep in that house, knowing the owner has keys.

Agree w bolded... n/k! You know they gotta be sleeping w one eye open...

:parrot:

diphi
02-09-2010, 07:46 PM
I still get the feeling somebody knows a lot of things we can't know, and we're wasting our effort sleuthing on this one. When the drowning people are hitting you with their fists, I was taught to get out of the way.

Somebody please talk me down! :furious:

Maybe it's because I've had a really long day, but I'm not getting what you're saying. Yes, there's not much to sleuth right now, but are we really wasting our time? Surely, things will break at some point...

Who are the drowning people?:waitasec:

diphi
02-09-2010, 07:50 PM
I don't believe you will find an ad. They already have tenants. It was reported on F & F FB the new tenants helped Josh complete the work in the basement. My guess would be members of the ward or friends or family.

That thought just makes me curl up my lip like Josh does - kinda sick like.:sick: They've gotta be getting one heck of a good deal.

RayO
02-09-2010, 08:16 PM
The temperature of a cutting torch is about 2000 degrees hotter than a propane torch! And, when I realized that a cutting torch requires two tanks, I realized my friend wasn't using a cutting torch after all.

There is a post of mine down maybe about 12 posts or so which has links and lists the three different types of "torches", the gasses they use and so forth.

So, my friend was not using a cutting torch but a propane torch! See how confusing this all is which leads me to believe that whomever started this story that it was a cutting torch could have been confused as well because they start at $300.00 whereas the hand held torches are very inexpensive.

One would think that JP would NOT have purchased a cutting torch on Monday morning! How suspicious and stupid would that be. I honestly believe he bought a simple, hand held torch like pictured here to start a campfire to keep warm and roast marshmallows for the S'Moures.

I'm not saying I'm right but buying a cutting torch just doesn't make sense to me as doing so would have been a BIG RED FLAG on his credit card statement. Surely he realized he would be a suspect in his wife's disappearance!


What make me think it WAS a cutting torch is that he bought it at Air Gas (if this whole rumor is true, of course). There is no reason to buy a simple propane torch from Air Gas because you can buy one of those, for a small amount of cash, at any Wal*Mart, Costco, Home Depot or even at an auto parts store. Air Gas is the place to go to get the two-gas, very hot, kind of torches and supplies.

Practically ANY credit card purchase in West Valley City would look suspicious if you're supposed to be "down south" camping on Monday and not get back home until late afternoon.

Addendum: What other supplies he bought with it might tell more about what he was doing with it. For example JP can use it to weld, but then he'd have to also buy brazing rod, flux, etc.

grayjay
02-09-2010, 10:04 PM
Maybe it's because I've had a really long day, but I'm not getting what you're saying. Yes, there's not much to sleuth right now, but are we really wasting our time? Surely, things will break at some point...

Who are the drowning people?:waitasec:

I'm most frustrated about Josh renting the house to a neighbor. Susan's friends are drowning in grief and also helping him? What's that? Puzzling to the max. I do wonder if we're being played here because I still remember Kiirsi saying there are so many things they can't tell us or we'd understand. Yeah. Surely things will break at some point.

RubyRed
02-09-2010, 10:08 PM
Joshua Powell rents home to neighbors
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14367948


I would live in a tent before I would rent that home .

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 10:28 PM
What make me think it WAS a cutting torch is that he bought it at Air Gas (if this whole rumor is true, of course). There is no reason to buy a simple propane torch from Air Gas because you can buy one of those, for a small amount of cash, at any Wal*Mart, Costco, Home Depot or even at an auto parts store. Air Gas is the place to go to get the two-gas, very hot, kind of torches and supplies.

Practically ANY credit card purchase in West Valley City would look suspicious if you're supposed to be "down south" camping on Monday and not get back home until late afternoon.

Addendum: What other supplies he bought with it might tell more about what he was doing with it. For example JP can use it to weld, but then he'd have to also buy brazing rod, flux, etc.

While I agree that most people would go to Walmart to buy a handheld propane torch, perhaps JP didn't want to go to Walmart for fear of being recognized or running into someone he knew. Why would he make such an expensive purchase if he knew there would no longer be Susan's income? Someone posted a photo of a very small, cutting torch set that costs $300.00. That is a lot of money! Of course, based on JP's bankruptcy papers, it doesn't appear he is very frugal with his spending.

He may have been so amped up from what happened that he wasn't thinking clearly and it didn't dawn on him that law enforcement would suspect him in the disappearance of his wife and may very well have purchased a cutting torch set. After all, if he left the house with Susan's body in the van, he was convinced he could hide it good enough for law enforcement not to find it.

What do these people think? It's beyond my ability to understand what JP was thinking at all! :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Dr.Fessel
02-09-2010, 10:33 PM
Joshua Powell rents home to neighbors
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14367948


I would live in a tent before I would rent that home .

That is so freaking creepy. I guess it is a win/win:waitasec:

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 10:36 PM
That is so freaking creepy. I guess it is a win/win:waitasec: It just goes to show that people will do anything to get a good deal! I sure hope they don't have little kids who they are forcing to live in that house. That would be so wrong! :furious:

lonetraveler
02-09-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm from the south and know absolutely nothing about cutting holes in ice on ponds or lakes or whatever, but just a question here. If it turns out to be true that Josh bought a torch, could it be for cutting a hole in ice on a body of water so that he could slip a body through the hole?

Dr.Fessel
02-09-2010, 10:38 PM
It just goes to show that people will do anything to get a good deal! I sure hope they don't have little kids who they are forcing to live in that house. That would be so wrong! :furious:

Someone should tell them never ever use a black light in the living room, the walls might freak them out.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 10:49 PM
I'm from the south and know absolutely nothing about cutting holes in ice on ponds or lakes or whatever, but just a question here. If it turns out to be true that Josh bought a torch, could it be for cutting a hole in ice on a body of water so that he could slip a body through the hole? Absolutely! Or, cutting off a lock or chain, cutting any type of metal. Or, attempting to burn a body.

Schmerty_Jones
02-09-2010, 10:51 PM
I get such frightening hinky feelings thinking about Susan. I think she knew Josh would harm her but didn't know how or whom to talk with. That poor faithful woman.There is evil in this world.

PickieChickie
02-09-2010, 11:00 PM
I get such frightening hinky feelings thinking about Susan. I think she knew Josh would harm her but didn't know how or whom to talk with. That poor faithful woman.There is evil in this world. Susan did share with Tim Peterson who told her to leave Josh. After that, Susan would no longer discuss her marriage with him. Having been in several relationships in which the men did the most horrible things, I know full well that it is embarrassing to tell anyone about their behavior because it makes the woman look like a fool for staying. It appears Susan knew what JP was capable because of the note she wrote in a notebook at work which said something to the effect of "If I end up dead, it won't be by suicide." Clearly she knew JP was capable of murder or she would have never written that. It's a travesty that she didn't get out of the marriage soon enough. It is also apparent that Susan's parents felt she was in danger because they bought her a cell phone and paid the charges each month so Susan could contact them whenever she needed to.

RayO
02-09-2010, 11:23 PM
I'm from the south and know absolutely nothing about cutting holes in ice on ponds or lakes or whatever, but just a question here. If it turns out to be true that Josh bought a torch, could it be for cutting a hole in ice on a body of water so that he could slip a body through the hole?

I'm originally from Wisconsin, and the standard procedure to cut a hole in the ice is to use an auger; it works remarkably fast; I've seen ice fisherman do it. Using a heat source to cut the ice I think would risk weakening the ice that you are standing on and I believe that it would be fairly slow.

I've heard the ice theory expressed before, but keep in mind Utah consists of desert and mountains. The desert does not have many lakes, the mountains mostly have streams. Some of the lakes in the state that I am familar with may not have been accessible in December using a standard mini-van. There is some ice fishing, but not as popular as Wisconsin and Minnesota.

grayjay
02-09-2010, 11:49 PM
I'm originally from Wisconsin, and the standard procedure to cut a hole in the ice is to use an auger; it works remarkably fast; I've seen ice fisherman do it. Using a heat source to cut the ice I think would risk weakening the ice that you are standing on and I believe that it would be fairly slow.

I've heard the ice theory expressed before, but keep in mind Utah consists of desert and mountains. The desert does not have many lakes, the mountains mostly have streams. Some of the lakes in the state that I am familar with may not have been accessible in December using a standard mini-van. There is some ice fishing, but not as popular as Wisconsin and Minnesota.
I grew up on the east coast back when people ended up wearing cement shoes, they'd say. This is a reference to the amount of weight it takes to keep a body from floating when the mafia guys did away with an enemy and tossed the body in the Hudson River. If JP did this, I imagine something would eventually turn up and be noticed.

RayO
02-10-2010, 12:59 AM
Also I would think its a poor way to destroy the evidence. The body would be pretty well preserved in a frozen lake so once a body is found it could be processed for trace evidence that might convict the killer. The perp would probably prefer the body were either never found or destroyed by the elements, scavanger animals, etc.

Then again, if Josh is the perp, it doesn't seem to be a safe assumption that this event was well planned. (If its a frame-up, Josh is being quite the co-operative framee).

LCoastMom
02-10-2010, 01:23 PM
Once again, JP is exhibiting his overpowering desire to control. Knowing full well the Cox's wouldn't accept, he has offered to allow them to see their grandchildren on his terms, something he has every right to do.

I wish the Cox's would call JP's bluff and go visit their grandchildren at Steve Powell's house.

Since we know they are cooperating with LE, I wonder about the timing of their statement. I also wonder if they believe it is "safer" to leave the children and not push this for the time being.


I thought there was a huge change in their public attitude. They seem like they are usually kindly, soft-spoken folks, but tonight's interview showed they are worried sick and just shocked at Josh's total lack of cooperation. To me, the look on their faces says, enough is enough. We've been patient, but now we're speaking out.
The parents specifically mention that Josh has an attorney, and he continues to not cooperate with the West Valley Police. Beyond that, they are still asking to see their grandchildren, something that hasn't happened since Jan 3. Josh will only allow them to see the children at his daddy's home. The Cox's feel this is awkward. I totally understand.

I couldn't watch that clip, the look on Mr Cox's face said it all....


The shrink wrap I am thinking of is just like Saran Wrap. Hot air is used to fill in the voids and make it adhere to itself.

I have been an optician for (a long time) and my husband works in cable. We have both used shrink wrap for work. The type utility company's put underground is shrunk with fire (as in a blow torch) the style I used to cover the metal on a pair of glasses uses hot air.

The stuff comes as thin as plastic (sandwich) wrap or as heavy as a tarp and is made to be shrunk at different temperatures, regardless of it's weight - depending on it's intended use.

The idea that JP may have made this purchase and a torch has me completely creeped out.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

grayjay
02-10-2010, 01:52 PM
The concept of shrink wrap as murder weapon and disposal fits well with how Josh has been portrayed to me. My impression of bleeding of a person who has died is that it could be profuse due to an overlooked detail like just a slightly sharp surface tearing the skin. I don't want to know more about this than I do, but in my own fantasy the deceased body wouldn't bleed at all-- like in the movies.

kiki the parrot
02-11-2010, 04:24 AM
This is the ABC Interview with Chuck and Judy Cox. The video is in the upper right corner.

Nothing is new except that the Cox parents want Josh to "man-up" and start cooperating with police. They both believe Susan is still alive.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/Susan-Powells-parents-have-a-message-for-Josh/V9UjCSrVaUSnVub2mVQ9gQ.cspx


I thought there was a huge change in their public attitude. They seem like they are usually kindly, soft-spoken folks, but tonight's interview showed they are worried sick and just shocked at Josh's total lack of cooperation. To me, the look on their faces says, enough is enough. We've been patient, but now we're speaking out.
The parents specifically mention that Josh has an attorney, and he continues to not cooperate with the West Valley Police. Beyond that, they are still asking to see their grandchildren, something that hasn't happened since Jan 3. Josh will only allow them to see the children at his daddy's home. The Cox's feel this is awkward. I totally understand.

I forgot to add: They showed a shot of the house, all the purple decorations are down. The reporter said Josh left Saturday night.

That is so messed up. Even SGifford--family friend and former DV specialist w Puyallup PD--understands JP "needs to be challenged on his actions" (yathink...) She pointed to the fact JP pulled up tent and moved early on as proof he had no expectation of her ever returning. Coxes now admit JP has demonstrated no concern and done nothing to look for Susan.:mad:

:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-11-2010, 03:33 PM
That is so messed up. Even SGifford--family friend and former DV specialist w Puyallup PD--understands JP "needs to be challenged on his actions" (yathink...) She pointed to the fact JP pulled up tent and moved early on as proof he had no expectation of her ever returning. Coxes now admit JP has demonstrated no concern and done nothing to look for Susan.:mad:

:parrot: I guess the "big" announcement that was well worth waiting for was that the Coxes, Shelby Gifford, Jennifer and Kirk Graves were going to appear on Dr. Phil. Maybe they'll be announcing a new reward fund that's been set up to receive contributions and to be managed by the Dr. Phil Show. Since he's a psychologist, maybe he'll be able to get them to say things they have been reluctant to share in the past!

grayjay
02-11-2010, 04:49 PM
It also looks bad for Josh, that he was no doubt invited to be on the show and didn't return their calls or declined the offer.

Gin
02-11-2010, 04:59 PM
I guess the "big" announcement that was well worth waiting for was that the Coxes, Shelby Gifford, Jennifer and Kirk Graves were going to appear on Dr. Phil. Maybe they'll be announcing a new reward fund that's been set up to receive contributions and to be managed by the Dr. Phil Show. Since he's a psychologist, maybe he'll be able to get them to say things they have been reluctant to share in the past!

I agree. Sounds like this is the big announcement. I'm glad this opportunity has been given to the immediate family and their representative.
I would certainly hope that Dr. P would be sensitive to the pain of having a dear family member missing. Add in the "husband" is moving on with his life as if Susan never existed, it's just heartbreaking.

Personally, I would not want them to be coached or coerced into saying anything they aren't comfortable saying. These folks have been through enough. And, just for the record, Dr. P isn't considered a psychologist. He isn't board certified.

PickieChickie
02-11-2010, 05:01 PM
It also looks bad for Josh, that he was no doubt invited to be on the show and didn't return their calls or declined the offer.

I don't have a television and I hope someone records the Cox's appearance on Dr. Phil then uploads it to YouTube!

You are right. It would seem the Dr. Phil show would attempt to get hold of JP to ask him to appear on the show. Beings that JP doesn't have a job, there would be nothing to keep him from going, especially since he was willing to leave Charlie and Braden to fly to West Valley City a few days ago.

I just hope Dr. Phill is able to bring out new information and that Susan's family and friends don't say the same thing they've been reported or recorded as saying all along, something that would be boring to all of us who have been following the case. I also hope Dr. Phil focuses on JP and shows photos of the rental car, family van, the boys and JP, asking that anyone who saw JP during particular hours on particular dates to call the WVC police.

And, if they all sit up there and say they think Susan is still alive, it will make them all look pretty foolish, especially since there have been no pleas for Susan's captors to let her go! I hope they get their strategy down because millions of people watch Dr. Phil and this is their big chance to get what they want people to know out there!

PickieChickie
02-11-2010, 05:18 PM
. And, just for the record, Dr. P isn't considered a psychologist. He isn't board certified.

Thank you! I wasn't aware of this. Here is some interesting information from http://wikipedia.com

McGraw graduated in 1975 from Midwestern State University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology. He went on to earn a master's degree in experimental psychology in 1976, and a Ph.D in clinical psychology in 1979 at the University of North Texas,[6] where his dissertation was titled "Rheumatoid Arthritis: A Psychological Intervention." After run-ins with several faculty members,[7] McGraw was guided through the doctoral program by Frank Lawlis, Ph.D., who later became the primary contributing psychologist for the Dr. Phil television show.[8]

McGraw owned a construction business with his brother-in-law while completing his internship for his Ph.D.[citation needed]
After obtaining his Ph.D., Phillip McGraw joined his father, Dr. Joe McGraw, in Wichita Falls, Texas, where the elder McGraw had established his private psychology practice.[9]

In 1983, McGraw and his father joined Thelma Box, a successful Texas businesswoman, in presenting "Pathways" seminars, "an experience-based training which allows individuals to achieve and create their own results."[10] Critics claim that many of the "phrases and the terminology and the quaint sayings" used by McGraw on the Oprah and Dr. Phil shows were coined by Box and presented by McGraw in this seminar. McGraw admits that some of the material from Life Strategies, his first best-seller, is taken directly from the Pathways seminar. However, he has never mentioned Thelma Box or her contributions to his success in any of his books or TV shows.[7] Eight years after joining Box, McGraw signed an agreement for the sale of his Pathways seminar stock for $325,000 without notifying either his father or Thelma Box of the impending sale. "There was a feeling of betrayal because Phil had compromised the integrity of the program. The accusation is that he reduced Box's asset value in the corporation by selling behind her back."[7] Box founded her own seminars entitled "Choices."[11] It has been reported that McGraw and his father seldom speak.[7]

Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists
The Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists determined on October 21, 1988 that McGraw had hired a former patient for "part-time temporary employment."[12] Specifically the Board cited "a possible failure to provide proper separation between termination of therapy and the initiation of employment"[13] and issued a letter of reprimand and imposed administrative penalties.[14] The Board also investigated claims made by the patient of inappropriate contact initiated by McGraw, but the "Findings of Fact" document issued by the Board on October 21, 1988, at the end of its investigation, includes no reference to any physical contact of any kind. It specifically identified the "the therapeutic and business relationships" as constituting McGraw's sole issue with the Board.[14] McGraw fulfilled all terms of the Board's requirements, and the Board closed its complaint file in June, 1990.[15]
In 1990, McGraw joined lawyer Gary Dobbs in co-founding Courtroom Sciences Inc. (CSI), a trial consulting firm through which McGraw later came into contact with Oprah Winfrey.[16] Eventually, CSI became a profitable enterprise, advising Fortune 500 companies and injured plaintiffs alike in achieving settlements. McGraw is no longer an officer or director of the company.[16]

After starting CSI, McGraw ceased the practice of Psychology. He maintained his license current and in good standing until he elected to retire it 15 years later in 2006.[17] Appearing on the Today Show in January 2008, McGraw said that he has made it "very clear" that his current work does not involve the practice of psychology. He also said that he had "retired from psychology."[18] According to the Today Show, the California Board of Psychology determined in 2002 that he did not require a license because his show involves "entertainment," rather than psychology.[18]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_McGraw

RubyRed
02-11-2010, 07:52 PM
I agree. Sounds like this is the big announcement. I'm glad this opportunity has been given to the immediate family and their representative.
I would certainly hope that Dr. P would be sensitive to the pain of having a dear family member missing. Add in the "husband" is moving on with his life as if Susan never existed, it's just heartbreaking.

Personally, I would not want them to be coached or coerced into saying anything they aren't comfortable saying. These folks have been through enough. And, just for the record, Dr. P isn't considered a psychologist. He isn't board certified.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjV7k_uSEJY
In my opinion Geraldo told them like it is . Dr. P isn't as aggressive.If they got through Geraldo interview, they will be fine with Dr. P interview.

PickieChickie
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjV7k_uSEJY
In my opinion Geraldo told them like it is . Dr. P isn't as aggressive.If they got through Geraldo interview, they will be fine with Dr. P interview. Every time I watch the various videos where JP is talking to a reporter, I just want to barf! His sniveling and sniffing and fake crying just makes me feel ill! What a big faker he is! "Any help would be appreciated." I can't imagine how people who know and love Susan felt when they saw him behaving like this! His conduct is pathetic!

GrandmaTo4
02-11-2010, 08:29 PM
Every time I watch the various videos where JP is talking to a reporter, I just want to barf! His sniveling and sniffing and fake crying just makes me feel ill! What a big faker he is! "Any help would be appreciated." I can't imagine how people who know and love Susan felt when they saw him behaving like this! His conduct is pathetic!

(bbm)

And still, to this day he has his friendly apologists. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? :waitasec: _ :mad:

kiki the parrot
02-11-2010, 11:26 PM
I don't have a television and I hope someone records the Cox's appearance on Dr. Phil then uploads it to YouTube!

You are right. It would seem the Dr. Phil show would attempt to get hold of JP to ask him to appear on the show. Beings that JP doesn't have a job, there would be nothing to keep him from going, especially since he was willing to leave Charlie and Braden to fly to West Valley City a few days ago.

I just hope Dr. Phill is able to bring out new information and that Susan's family and friends don't say the same thing they've been reported or recorded as saying all along, something that would be boring to all of us who have been following the case.

Count on it.


I also hope Dr. Phil focuses on JP and shows photos of the rental car, family van, the boys and JP, asking that anyone who saw JP during particular hours on particular dates to call the WVC police.

Don't count on it.


And, if they all sit up there and say they think Susan is still alive, it will make them all look pretty foolish, especially since there have been no pleas for Susan's captors to let her go! I hope they get their strategy down because millions of people watch Dr. Phil and this is their big chance to get what they want people to know out there!

I don't mean to be glib, but my fear is this is just how this is gonna go... that this talkshow is being viewed simply as another opportunity to put Susan's face out there--instead of Josh's--and that we'll hear how it's feared she's been kidnapped and being held somewhere against her will. Sorry, faith isn't denial and I don't believe that strategy is proving to be very effective or helpful in this case.

I would love to be wrong--and hear Dr P ask some real questions of the family such as "For what purposes would Josh in the normal course of his activities be purchasing torches, or shrink wrap?"

:parrot:

PickieChickie
02-11-2010, 11:49 PM
I would love to be wrong--and hear Dr P ask some real questions of the family such as "For what purposes would Josh in the normal course of his activities be purchasing torches, or shrink wrap?" [/COLOR]
:parrot: I don't think Dr. Phil visits this forum. Could you imagine how that would go over? Probably like a big FART in church!

RubyRed
02-12-2010, 12:11 AM
Something else that's disappeared," Kirk said, "Is Josh's talkative and obsessive personality - that's gone too."

"I just wonder," Kirk asked, "Why is Josh working so hard to remove any trace or memory of Susan from his life?"

"And what about the kids," Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister said, "No one has access to time alone with them anymore. To the family, it feels like they, too, have disappeared. He's shut down visits outside our dad's home and that's uncomfortable for everyone."

http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner%7Ey2010m2d10-Susan-Powell-update-Where-have-all-the-ribbons-gone

Something else that is disappearing is you tube videos that are not very flattering to Josh . One was a satire of him making smores and moving. That one and a few others have disappeared. Wonder if the Powell camp is at work? moo

grayjay
02-12-2010, 01:21 AM
"I just wonder," Kirk asked, "Why is Josh working so hard to remove any trace or memory of Susan from his life?"

It's ... it's such a mystery. They were so in love and there are all these cute photos, and had such normal problems in their marriage. I just don't have a clue why he would want to remove all memory of her. I can't think he would MURDER her!

<snark> :doh:

RubyRed
02-12-2010, 01:24 AM
[quote=grayjay;4801949]it's ... It's such a mystery. They were so in love and there are all these cute photos, and had such normal problems in their marriage. I just don't have a clue why he would want to remove all memory of her. I can't think he would murder her!

<snark> :doh:[/quote

LOL

hollyblue
02-13-2010, 12:02 PM
[quote=grayjay;4801949]it's ... It's such a mystery. They were so in love and there are all these cute photos, and had such normal problems in their marriage. I just don't have a clue why he would want to remove all memory of her. I can't think he would murder her!

<snark> :doh:[/quote

LOL

It's my opinion Steven P/C has done a fine job of poisoning Josh's mind against Susan. What a truly wicked man he must be. It is clearly obvious from his past and present behavior there are deep psychological problems embedded within him.

I was always intrigued with the situation of his divorce, and he being granted custody of the children and Terrica having to pay child support. That is not in the norm and would be very telling.

I fear for those boys. It is sad and frightening to think this screwball has had the opportunity to influence his 5 children in his bitter, toxic, controlling manner. I just can't imagine how the boys lives could be damaged. I think if just one of his children living under his roof would seek counselling, how the others might benefit. But the father would surely see this as an enormous threat to his psyche. (shivers)

Do you think there is anything in Susan journal referring to Josh's dad? I do. I have a inkling she put it all down there.
Every little bit.

I also think he was a big part in her demise. No way was he going to let Josh lose everything (which he would have) in the same costly and drawn out divorce he sought. Josh didn't have the finances, nor the fortitude of daddy. Let a strong willed, Mormon women "beat" his son. I think not--not in HIS mind.

The two Powell men are going to lose this battle...no doubt in my mind. Their controlling and manipulative days are over. Period.

I'm confused on the Coxs' not pursuing visitation with the boys--even at the Powell's residence. I'm sure they have their reason, but I was always told to face the devil, grab him by the tail and then box his jaws!!!

PickieChickie
02-13-2010, 12:11 PM
[quote=RubyRed;4801961]

It's my opinion Steven P/C has done a fine job of poisoning Josh's mind against Susan. What a truly wicked man he must be. It is clearly obvious from his past and present behavior there are deep psychological problems embedded within him.

I was always intrigued with the situation of his divorce, and he being granted custody of the children and Terrica having to pay child support. That is not in the norm and would be very telling.

I fear for those boys. It is sad and frightening to think this screwball has had the opportunity to influence his 5 children in his bitter, toxic, controlling manner. I just can't imagine how the boys lives could be damaged. I think if just one of his children living under his roof would seek counselling, how the others might benefit. But the father would surely see this as an enormous threat to his psyche. (shivers)

Do you think there is anything in Susan journal referring to Josh's dad? I do. I have a inkling she put it all down there.
Every little bit.

I also think he was a big part in her demise. No way was he going to let Josh lose everything (which he would have) in the same costly and drawn out divorce he sought. Josh didn't have the finances, nor the fortitude of daddy. Let a strong willed, Mormon women "beat" his son. I think not--not in HIS mind.

You just made me realize something I hadn't thought of. It appears that JP's father's goal is to have all his adult children live with him in his home. Perhaps he brainwashed JP into getting rid of Susan, knowing full well JP wouldn't be able to make it on his own and would ultimately come back home to live with him.

Why else would JP's father allow four of his adult children to reside with him? That is VERY unusual! I do not know of any other family who has 4 out of their 5 ADULT children living with them! That is just plain strange!

hollyblue
02-13-2010, 12:54 PM
Was this site "down" for a bit? 10 mins.? I was in the act of editing my post when the I get the Oops. Site not available. Could not get a response till a few minutes ago. What gives? Strange.

Dr.Fessel
02-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Then, the next evening when the police served a warrant and took his mini-van he took off in a rental car and disappeared until the next day."

I keep thinking this was a visit to a girlfriend or boyfriend.

grayjay
02-13-2010, 01:13 PM
[quote=hollyblue;4807394]

You just made me realize something I hadn't thought of. It appears that JP's father's goal is to have all his adult children live with him in his home. Perhaps he brainwashed JP into getting rid of Susan, knowing full well JP wouldn't be able to make it on his own and would ultimately come back home to live with him.

Why else would JP's father allow four of his adult children to reside with him? That is VERY unusual! I do not know of any other family who has 4 out of their 5 ADULT children living with them! That is just plain strange!
I agree it is very strange. The finances, especially. The most expensive attorney, those two moving vans, a rental car, a plane ticket back to SLC, a generator and the list goes on. This doesn't seem like the right expense report for the guy they said on TV made just a few thousand dollars one year.

Isn't it illegal to clean out the family bank account once a spouse goes missing like that?

Who's covering those bills? It starts to look like a cult group is assembling in that house.

hollyblue
02-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Dr. Fessel, I think he was meeting Papa. Didn't the dad show up in WVC around that time? Rumors of him being in the rental car when the famous 6 min video was done?