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strawberry
02-06-2010, 05:51 PM
Just saw this on FB:

http://www.kens5.com/home/bab-83722477.html

Chemeria
02-06-2010, 05:52 PM
thank you for starting a new thread.. :( This is HORRIBLE news.
Did they say that they have new information now that leads them to believe this should be a murder investigation?

SuziQ
02-06-2010, 05:53 PM
thank you for starting a new thread.. :( This is HORRIBLE news.
Did they say that they have new information now that leads them to believe this should be a murder investigation?


According to police, there is information that Baby Gabriel, who was last seen in San Antonio the day after Christmas, was murdered and dumped in a landfill.
SAPD said the section of the landfill has been closed off and they will begin an active search in that area for the body.

Chemeria
02-06-2010, 05:58 PM
That seems to me that they are saying (I could be wrong) that someone took G to the landfill and put him there? Why wouldn't they say that they believe he was murdered and that he might be there now? That is worded weird (I think JMO)

I wish they would say what the new information that leads them to believe that is. :( Maybe something Logan found at the house when moving?

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:01 PM
According to police, there is information that Baby Gabriel, who was last seen in San Antonio the day after Christmas, was murdered and dumped in a landfill.
SAPD said the section of the landfill has been closed off and they will begin an active search in that area for the body.

I wonder what information they have besides EJ's text? :cry:

strawberry
02-06-2010, 06:01 PM
This report says it is now a dual murder and missing person's investigation:

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/

I thought it would have been a dual investigation all along...

LadyL
02-06-2010, 06:02 PM
I'm sick with the thought of it
my heart & stomach did flipflops when I saw this thread title
I hope for Logan's (& Gabriel's obviously!) sake it's not true

strawberry
02-06-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm sick with the thought of it
my heart & stomach did flipflops when I saw this thread title
I hope for Logan's (& Gabriel's obviously!) sake it's not true

Sorry. Mine did to when I saw it on FB. I just copied and pasted it from the title of the article (not the FB, the news site).

Harmony2
02-06-2010, 06:05 PM
This is gut wrenching... http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/3D Smiles (96).jpg (http://www.smileyshut.com/Smileys/Smiley-Huts-Free-3D-Smileys.html)

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:07 PM
This report says it is now a dual murder and missing person's investigation:

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/

I thought it would have been a dual investigation all along...
I've seen previous news reports that have stated it was a dual investigation. Today's the first time I recall specifically homicide detectives being mentioned though.

Chemeria
02-06-2010, 06:08 PM
Police Classify Baby Gabriel Case As Homicide - Phoenix News Story - KPHO Phoenix

http://www.kpho.com/news/22486917/detail.html

During a news briefing on Saturday, police said it doesn't mean they think the 9-month-old boy is dead. They said the classification is a procedural step needed to move forward with a search of a Texas landfill.

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:09 PM
I'm sick with the thought of it
my heart & stomach did flipflops when I saw this thread title
I hope for Logan's (& Gabriel's obviously!) sake it's not true
I heart breaks for Logan right now. Here he just got in San Antonio a few hours ago and now this announcement. But at least I hope now he knows LE is investigating everything.

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Police Classify Baby Gabriel Case As Homicide - Phoenix News Story - KPHO Phoenix

http://www.kpho.com/news/22486917/detail.html

During a news briefing on Saturday, police said it doesn't mean they think the 9-month-old boy is dead. They said the classification is a procedural step needed to move forward with a search of a Texas landfill.
Very understandable.

southern_comfort
02-06-2010, 06:10 PM
I am not going to get upset about this yet. There has been information that he was murdered and dumped in a landfill all along.

Many people, including LM, have been pushing for a landfill search and wondering why it wasn't done a long time ago. Perhaps it needs to be classified as a homicide investigation before they can go down that route and put the right individuals and resources into it.

ETA: Ah yes.. that is the case. Thanks, Chemeria!

not_my_kids
02-06-2010, 06:18 PM
How is this different from the dual investigation stuff we've been hearing for weeks?
We know they think he's in the landfill, they wouldn't have cordoned that part off otherwise.

What am I missing? Or was it just a slow news day?

strawberry
02-06-2010, 06:19 PM
I am not going to get upset about this yet. There has been information that he was murdered and dumped in a landfill all along.

Many people, including LM, have been pushing for a landfill search and wondering why it wasn't done a long time ago. Perhaps it needs to be classified as a homicide investigation before they can go down that route and put the right individuals and resources into it.

ETA: Ah yes.. that is the case. Thanks, Chemeria!

Perhaps LMs trip to SA has helped spur this development to get the search in full gear.

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:25 PM
How is this different from the dual investigation stuff we've been hearing for weeks?
We know they think he's in the landfill, they wouldn't have cordoned that part off otherwise.

What am I missing? Or was it just a slow news day?
Reading the first article posted, I thought LE had something new. But the second article confirms the reason for the statement, that they need to state it as a murder investigation for procedural reasons. So nothing seems 'new' after all ~ thankfully.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 06:27 PM
How is this different from the dual investigation stuff we've been hearing for weeks?
We know they think he's in the landfill, they wouldn't have cordoned that part off otherwise.

What am I missing? Or was it just a slow news day?

Previous dual:
Tempe PD - kidnapping
SAPD - missing persons

Now Tempe PD's kidnapping investigation is closed, and SAPD has officially opened a homicide investigation.

Current dual:
SAPD - homicide
SAPD - missing persons

MissingGabe emailed me earlier and told me the family will be issuing a statement, so keep an eye on the news for that.

Please pray for Gabriel, Logan, and all Gabriel's family. They love Gabe very, very much.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 06:28 PM
Reading the first article posted, I thought LE had something new. But the second article confirms the reason for the statement, that they need to state it as a murder investigation for procedural reasons. So nothing seems 'new' after all ~ thankfully.

Yes, this is new.

panthera
02-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Yes, this is new.
From reading your previous post, I see that. Thanks so much for the information and I am praying for Logan, his family and of course Gabriel.

captdj
02-06-2010, 06:39 PM
According to police, there is information that Baby Gabriel, who was last seen in San Antonio the day after Christmas, was murdered and dumped in a landfill.
SAPD said the section of the landfill has been closed off and they will begin an active search in that area for the body.

Hoping this is just the way it was worded :eek:... since it doesnt say NEW just says information...

Is there still a parrarrel investigation going on looking for the couple and hispanic male that was seen with Elizabeth:(:(

mysticrose
02-06-2010, 06:50 PM
I hope this announcment is to put more pressure on EJ to talk, if she did not kill him and gave him away perhaps her lawyer will tell her to speak up or face the rest of her life in prison.
All along there has been some evidence that she may have killed baby Gabe just from her statements alone to Logan. I still for the life of me don't understand why they did not check the landfill right away to rule it out one way or another. Perhaps LE's hands are tied and they had to wait for a certain amount of time before they could classify this as a homicide because baby Gabe has not been found yet....

BeanE
02-06-2010, 06:51 PM
Please keep searching for Gabriel.

fran
02-06-2010, 06:57 PM
I believe this new classification is because LM lit a fire under LE and they need to do EVERYTHING possible to find Gabriel.

JMHO
fran


http://www.kens5.com/news/local/Touching-down-ready-to-hunt-Baby-Gabriels-dad-arrives-in-SA-83720922.html

Baby Gabriel's dad hopes to 'light a fire' under SAPD

<<<<<<<<<<<<<full article and video at link>>>>>>>>>>>

~PrinceSSa~
02-06-2010, 07:04 PM
This is terrible news! While I like to think Gabriel is alive somewhere, those new announcements definately cloud my hope.

I continue to send prayers to the family.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 07:07 PM
This is terrible news! While I like to think Gabriel is alive somewhere, those new announcements definately cloud my hope.

I continue to send prayers to the family.

Even one little spark of hope is all we need. Let's keep searching.

panthera
02-06-2010, 07:27 PM
I believe this new classification is because LM lit a fire under LE and they need to do EVERYTHING possible to find Gabriel.

JMHO
fran


http://www.kens5.com/news/local/Touching-down-ready-to-hunt-Baby-Gabriels-dad-arrives-in-SA-83720922.html

Baby Gabriel's dad hopes to 'light a fire' under SAPD

<<<<<<<<<<<<<full article and video at link>>>>>>>>>>>
I really do think his presence there has sparked them into action. Based on what EJ texted him about killing Gabriel and putting him in a dumpster, they should've treated this as a homicide from the beginning. Just because it seemed too unreal that she'd "confess" in a text message doesn't mean it isn't possible that she did just that. I haven't seen any credible leads who these supposed adoptive parents are, or that he's alive somewhere. :( MOO

Prof
02-06-2010, 07:38 PM
I understood that Tempe stated that they opened a dual homicide and kidnapping/missing persons investigation a couple of weeks ago

And I thought I read that SA LE were looking into both possibilities a while ago, too

I really don't think they have any new information; they seem to be going on the lack of information on Gabriel's whereabouts plus the information they have had from the start -- EJ's statements to Logan

southern_comfort
02-06-2010, 07:44 PM
Previous dual:
Tempe PD - kidnapping
SAPD - missing persons

Now Tempe PD's kidnapping investigation is closed, and SAPD has officially opened a homicide investigation.

Current dual:
SAPD - homicide
SAPD - missing persons

(respectfully snipped)

I think Tempe had a dual missing persons/homicide investigation last month.


"According to Horn, a team of detectives is working both a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

'It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel," Horn said. "We are holding out hope that he's alive, but we have to look at every aspect and investigate everything.'" (http://stp.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Police-now-calling-case-of-missing-Tempe-baby-a/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx)

This may be a blessing in disguise, as more resources will now be going into the hunt for Gabriel, even if the major result is simply that the landfill becomes less important as we move forward toward finding him somewhere else - alive.

We should not let ourselves be weighed down by this. We can't let our guard down because of this new procedural classification.

Schmerty_Jones
02-06-2010, 08:04 PM
We must keep our feelings positive & our expectations higher if only to provide encouragement for Logan & his family. Those of us who believe in Love & the Almighty conquering all ,must provide this support. Good health & strength to LE!

BeanE
02-06-2010, 08:12 PM
I understood that Tempe stated that they opened a dual homicide and kidnapping/missing persons investigation a couple of weeks ago

And I thought I read that SA LE were looking into both possibilities a while ago, too


I think Tempe had a dual missing persons/homicide investigation last month.


"According to Horn, a team of detectives is working both a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

'It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel," Horn said. "We are holding out hope that he's alive, but we have to look at every aspect and investigate everything.'" (http://stp.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Police-now-calling-case-of-missing-Tempe-baby-a/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx)

This may be a blessing in disguise, as more resources will now be going into the hunt for Gabriel, even if the major result is simply that the landfill becomes less important as we move forward toward finding him somewhere else - alive.

We should not let ourselves be weighed down by this. We can't let our guard down because of this new procedural classification.

That's the media giving their interpretation of what Horn said. They've misinterpreted more than once.

If anyone has a direct quote of any Tempe PD officer saying that they have ever had an open homicide investigation in this case, I'd sure like to see that. I'd definitely want to show it to Gabe's family. Logan's dad, who is Tempe LE, would be particularly surprised.

Here is a direct quote from the Chief of the SA PD:

Posted on January 29, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Updated Friday, Jan 29 at 9:24 PMhttp://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

"We have not opened a homicide case," said Chief Bill McManus. "We're still considering it a missing persons case. And we're meeting to determine how to proceed in the next couple days."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

and another:

Last Update: 1/29 10:07 am

"If we had reason to believe that the baby was dead, then we would open up a homicide case," Chief McManus told News 4 WOAI. "But right now, that's not the case, and the Baby Gabriel case remains a missing person case.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SA-Police-Chief-Bill-McManus-hopeful-Baby-Gabriel/tPKoEF7Bckm2kgjxjd0rFA.cspx

RainyGirl
02-06-2010, 08:21 PM
I'm glad there is a dual investigation occuring, but it's very difficult to stomach the news of a landfill search. I am continuing to pray daily for Gabriel's safe return to his Daddy. Please, dear Lord, hear our combined prayers and keep Gabriel safe. I still have a sweet vision in my mind of a joyous father-son reunion and a lifetime of love from the family that adores him.

southern_comfort
02-06-2010, 08:30 PM
That's the media giving their interpretation of what Horn said. They've misinterpreted more than once.

If anyone has a direct quote of any Tempe PD officer saying that they have ever had an open homicide investigation in this case, I'd sure like to see that. I'd definitely want to show it to Gabe's family. Logan's dad, who is Tempe LE, would be particularly surprised.

Here is a direct quote from the Chief of the SA PD:

Posted on January 29, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Updated Friday, Jan 29 at 9:24 PMhttp://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

"We have not opened a homicide case," said Chief Bill McManus. "We're still considering it a missing persons case. And we're meeting to determine how to proceed in the next couple days."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

and another:

Last Update: 1/29 10:07 am

"If we had reason to believe that the baby was dead, then we would open up a homicide case," Chief McManus told News 4 WOAI. "But right now, that's not the case, and the Baby Gabriel case remains a missing person case.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SA-Police-Chief-Bill-McManus-hopeful-Baby-Gabriel/tPKoEF7Bckm2kgjxjd0rFA.cspx

While I try to stick to reliable sources, unfortunately all I have to go on is what I read or watch in the media, which most often involves a reporter's interpretation.

Direct knowledge from LM's dad, who is Tempe LE, trumps anything I can offer.

STEADFAST
02-06-2010, 08:41 PM
That's the media giving their interpretation of what Horn said. They've misinterpreted more than once.

If anyone has a direct quote of any Tempe PD officer saying that they have ever had an open homicide investigation in this case, I'd sure like to see that. I'd definitely want to show it to Gabe's family. Logan's dad, who is Tempe LE, would be particularly surprised.

Here is a direct quote from the Chief of the SA PD:

Posted on January 29, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Updated Friday, Jan 29 at 9:24 PMhttp://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

"We have not opened a homicide case," said Chief Bill McManus. "We're still considering it a missing persons case. And we're meeting to determine how to proceed in the next couple days."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

and another:

Last Update: 1/29 10:07 am

"If we had reason to believe that the baby was dead, then we would open up a homicide case," Chief McManus told News 4 WOAI. "But right now, that's not the case, and the Baby Gabriel case remains a missing person case.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SA-Police-Chief-Bill-McManus-hopeful-Baby-Gabriel/tPKoEF7Bckm2kgjxjd0rFA.cspx

I'm confused, BeanE. I don't see where anyone's saying that Tempe has ever opened a homicide investigation. As far as San Antonio goes, I'm pretty sure we had info a couple of weeks ago that they were opening a dual investigation. I'll go back and look in the old discussion threads.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 08:41 PM
While I try to stick to reliable sources, unfortunately all I have to go on is what I read or watch in the media, which most often involves a reporter's interpretation.

Direct knowledge from LM's dad, who is Tempe LE, trumps anything I can offer.

Understandable. I've been frustrated in this case at the sloppiness of the reporting. There are always some errors in reporting because the reporters are pressured into getting their articles out quickly. But in this case, I'm surprised so many of them are not more careful, and not using the technology tools that would help them maintain accuracy (e.g. live streaming, raw video of pressers, etc.)

To be clear, I have never communicated directly with Logan's dad and wasn't trying to imply that. I've been communicating with others of Gabe's family members.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm confused, BeanE. I don't see where anyone's saying that Tempe has ever opened a homicide investigation. As far as San Antonio goes, I'm pretty sure we had info a couple of weeks ago that they were opening a dual investigation. I'll go back and look in the old discussion threads.

Prof in his post #28

I understood that Tempe stated that they opened a dual homicide and kidnapping/missing persons investigation a couple of weeks ago


southern_comfort in her post #29

I think Tempe had a dual missing persons/homicide investigation last month.

and article quoted:
"According to Horn, a team of detectives is working both a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

==========

Horn is with Tempe PD

I quoted both the above posts in my post #31. Sorry you missed them.

If you can provide a direct quote from any SA official that they had an open homicide investigation prior to today, that would be nothing short of amazing.

believe09
02-06-2010, 09:10 PM
Oh Dear God-I hope Gabriel is not or did not suffer.

Maybe Elizabeth finally cracked.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:20 PM
Police Classify Baby Gabriel Case As Homicide
Procedural Step Taken To Move Forward With Landfill Search
POSTED: 2:32 pm MST February 6, 2010
UPDATED: 6:05 pm MST February 6, 2010

After Saturday's announcement, McQueary said he was relieved.

"I feel a lot more comfortable now with the San Antonio Police Department, the detectives there, they are actually doing a lot more than everybody knows," he said.

McQueary said he will continue to look for more clues on the belief his son is still alive.

"Gabriel's out there and he's out there somewhere," McQueary said. "We're hoping to find him."

http://www.kpho.com/news/22486917/detail.html

Texas Mist
02-06-2010, 09:21 PM
I'm sick with the thought of it
my heart & stomach did flipflops when I saw this thread title
I hope for Logan's (& Gabriel's obviously!) sake it's not true

I just got a tweet "Texas police: Missing Ariz. baby case a homicide" & my heart just sank....I'm home by myself right now but was saying "noooooooooo" out loud....still crying over baby Eddie - that tweet was too much. :(

mikeysmommom
02-06-2010, 09:23 PM
IMO They should have searched landfill right away.Elizabeth said she put him in a dumpster first thing they should have been checked out.Hopefully he is still alive but it really does not look good for the little guy.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:24 PM
Video now available with interview with Chief McManus SAPD:

San Antonio police: Baby Gabriel case now a homicide

http://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-Baby-Gabriel-case-now-a-homicide-83726297.html

TXHOPE
02-06-2010, 09:28 PM
During a news briefing on Saturday, San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said detectives don't have any direct evidence that the 9-month-old boy was killed. They said the classification was made to justify the next procedural step -- searching a nearby landfill for any possible signs of the boy's body.

We can't get down about this-I say this after I teared up when I saw the thread but then I read the above statement from Cheif McManus-this to me sounds like it's just a formality. In order to search the landfill it has to be classified as a homicide. There is not any direct evidence!

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:30 PM
Missing Baby Case Turns to Homicide Investigation

Now has video with Yami Virgin who talked to Logan just after the announcement, followed by family's statement

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/missing-baby-homicide-2-6-2010

God bless you, Kelli. We're with you, dear.

fran
02-06-2010, 09:31 PM
IMHO, I believe LE has tried to play-down the homicide portion of the case because they don't want people to FORGET to look for a LIVE Gabriel.

Let's just keep the faith that someone out there has baby Gabriel and he'll soon be home with his daddy.

As long as Logan has hope, I have hope.

JMHO
fran

STEADFAST
02-06-2010, 09:32 PM
Prof in his post #28

I understood that Tempe stated that they opened a dual homicide and kidnapping/missing persons investigation a couple of weeks ago


southern_comfort in her post #29

I think Tempe had a dual missing persons/homicide investigation last month.

and article quoted:
"According to Horn, a team of detectives is working both a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

==========

Horn is with Tempe PD

I quoted both the above posts in my post #31. Sorry you missed them.

If you can provide a direct quote from any SA official that they had an open homicide investigation prior to today, that would be nothing short of amazing.

That San Antonio wouldn't have a homicide investigation going is what would amaze me. They have been talking about landfill searches and had the landfill cordon off an area early on. Don't think they believed there'd be a live Gabriel there. Maybe they haven't had a public announcement of their homicide investigation until now, but I have no doubt homicide detectives have been working on this case before today.

ETA I would also be amazed if many of us who remember news reports about a dual missing persons/homicide investigation, whether in Tempe or San Antonio, are mistaken about what we remember. I also doubt that news sources are psychic and reported a dual investigation weeks before it happened.

cyberborg
02-06-2010, 09:37 PM
Being procedural I see this more as a budgetary $$$$ approval thing, to open the door for permission to spend the money and resources on doing the landfill search --- not cheap.

I think that they were holding, hoping not to expend the money and resources if they could find Gabriel. However, it has now reached a point where they must address this and rule it out.

I see it as a good thing since if they search the landfill and find nothing we don't have to worry about that option. We can focus.

It *might* also put pressure on EJ to talk if she knows it is being treated as a homicide and is frightened they might find something. It also *might* be a reality check for TPS that this is serious and not just a smarta$$ game and, does she want to be associated as an accessory in a homicide?

Lets get the landfill searched and move on, it is a distraction. Hopefully.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:37 PM
That San Antonio wouldn't have a homicide investigation going is what would amaze me. They have been talking about landfill searches and had the landfill cordon off an area early on. Don't think they believed there'd be a live Gabriel there. Maybe they haven't had a public announcement of their homicide investigation until now, but I have no doubt homicide detectives have been working on this case before today.

ETA I would also be amazed if many of us who remember news reports about a dual missing persons/homicide investigation, whether in Tempe or San Antonio, are mistaken about what we remember. I also doubt that news sources are psychic and reported a dual investigation weeks before it happened.

Then cough up your link to any direct quote of a Tempe or SA PD official saying a homicide investigation was open prior to today.

It either happened, or it didn't. Facts are facts.

ETA: This is a great example of how rumor and speculation takes legs and ends up being repeated as fact, in spite of the fact that not a single person can find a single link.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 09:40 PM
Search for Baby Gabriel now a murder investigation

This one also now includes video

http://www.kens5.com/news/bab-83722477.html

DairyGirl
02-06-2010, 09:50 PM
What concerns me is that even if they don't find anything doesn't mean that EJ didn't do what she said she did. They are looking at the dumpsters from the motels I assume. What if she dumped him at a park or any other place for that matter. I hate even typing that because of course I am praying that she didn't dump him at all but there really is no way of knowing what she did with him and where she did it.

not_my_kids
02-06-2010, 09:51 PM
Police also confirm to ABC15 there are two, separate, yet parallel investigations involving the disappearance of the toddler.

According to Horn, a team of detectives is working a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

"It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel," Horn said. "We are holding out hope that he's alive, but we have to look at every aspect and investigate everything."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Police-now-calling-case-of-missing-Tempe-baby-a/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx

Due to updates, I can't prove this, but this was the January 30th version of this article...the homicide investigation is not new. IMO.

ETA: Google cache of the article as it was 2-3-2010, so it's kinda proof that the statements had already been made regarding homicide prior to today, 2-6-2010.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:VScTAUagBrkJ:www.abc15.com/mostpopular/story/NEW-Texas-landfill-search-to-begin-for-missing/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx+It+is+a+very+real+poss ibility+that+Elizabeth+killed+Gabriel,%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

panthera
02-06-2010, 09:55 PM
What concerns me is that even if they don't find anything doesn't mean that EJ didn't do what she said she did. They are looking at the dumpsters from the motels I assume. What if she dumped him at a park or any other place for that matter. I hate even typing that because of course I am praying that she didn't dump him at all but there really is no way of knowing what she did with him and where she did it.
So true, and it scares me also. Fortunately, there is no statute of limitations on murder and charges have been filed, and successfully prosecuted without a body. But in those cases there usually is more evidence of a homicide than just a text message from the alleged perp. :( MOO

not_my_kids
02-06-2010, 10:03 PM
"If we had reason to believe that the baby was dead, then we would open up a homicide case," Chief McManus told News 4 WOAI. "But right now, that's not the case, and the Baby Gabriel case remains a missing person case.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SA-Police-Chief-Bill-McManus-hopeful-Baby-Gabriel/tPKoEF7Bckm2kgjxjd0rFA.cspx

But there's also this from 1-29-2010...don't know when it was originally published, so in all honesty, it looks like we are seeing a case of the left hand doing things that the right hand has no knowledge of. Since the statements of the two agencies conflict, I am going to choose to believe that we knew this a week ago, but it was only confirmed today. MOO.

STEADFAST
02-06-2010, 10:07 PM
Police also confirm to ABC15 there are two, separate, yet parallel investigations involving the disappearance of the toddler.

According to Horn, a team of detectives is working a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

"It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel," Horn said. "We are holding out hope that he's alive, but we have to look at every aspect and investigate everything."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Police-now-calling-case-of-missing-Tempe-baby-a/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx

Due to updates, I can't prove this, but this was the January 30th version of this article...the homicide investigation is not new. IMO.

ETA: Google cache of the article as it was 2-3-2010, so it's kinda proof that the statements had already been made regarding homicide prior to today, 2-6-2010.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:VScTAUagBrkJ:www.abc15.com/mostpopular/story/NEW-Texas-landfill-search-to-begin-for-missing/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx+It+is+a+very+real+poss ibility+that+Elizabeth+killed+Gabriel,%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
That same article was posted here at WS on Jan 19th by AngelWhoCares.Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ-Gabriel Johnson, 8 months News Media and Updated Information ONLY. No Discussion.
It's near the end.

Mels3kidz
02-06-2010, 10:10 PM
I believe this new classification is because LM lit a fire under LE and they need to do EVERYTHING possible to find Gabriel.

JMHO
fran


http://www.kens5.com/news/local/Touching-down-ready-to-hunt-Baby-Gabriels-dad-arrives-in-SA-83720922.html

Baby Gabriel's dad hopes to 'light a fire' under SAPD

<<<<<<<<<<<<<full article and video at link>>>>>>>>>>>

But shouldn't the FBI have been involved in this from the beginning? She did take him across state lines.

Melissa

panthera
02-06-2010, 10:21 PM
But shouldn't the FBI have been involved in this from the beginning? She did take him across state lines.

Melissa
I was also under the impression kidnapping across state lines was a Federal offense. But she's only been charged under Arizona law and it seems local authorities in AZ & TX are investigating. :waitasec:

mysticrose
02-06-2010, 10:23 PM
Missing baby's mom could face charges in Texas
Reported by: Leila Walsh
Email: LeilaWalsh@woaitv.com
Last Update: 1/27 6:42 am

News 4 WOAI broke the news last week that police plan to search a landfill near Interstate 10 and Foster Road because Gabriel's mom told the boy's father she killed the baby, stuffed his body in a diaper bag, and threw it in a dumpster. However, Elizabeth Johnson has given conflicting stories about what happened to her son. She also said she gave the baby to a couple she met here in San Antonio. So, police have to investigate both claims. Depending on the outcome of the investigation, Johnson may face charges here.

"We don't have any cases filed in our office yet by the police department," explained Cliff Herberg of the Bexar County District Attorney's Office. "They're still investigating. But, of course, if there was evidence that determined some sort of crime occurred here in Bexar County, well then, charges could be filed

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Missing-babys-mom-could-face-charges-in-Texas/n7d0-nkDZE2GwzKPOYrpNg.cspx

STEADFAST
02-06-2010, 10:30 PM
I was also under the impression kidnapping across state lines was a Federal offense. But she's only been charged under Arizona law and it seems local authorities in AZ & TX are investigating. :waitasec:
The FBI has been involved from early on, even while Elizabeth was still in Florida. http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Update-Family-member-says-mom-of-missing-baby/1gW7IWXbyk-ZzYrCnWVD1g.cspx
The F.B.I., San Antonio Police and officers from Arizona are all involved in the search for Gabriel Johnson. They are hoping to take Elizabeth Johnson back to Arizona next week.

Also, they were the ones in Nashville who checked out that one house where there was an indication Gabriel might be. http://www.kpho.com/news/22190418/detail.html
"We went, knocked on the door, and interviewed the occupants and have been unable at this point to locate the child," said FBI Special Agent Keith Moss.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 10:34 PM
Police also confirm to ABC15 there are two, separate, yet parallel investigations involving the disappearance of the toddler.

According to Horn, a team of detectives is working a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or possibly killed him.

"It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel," Horn said. "We are holding out hope that he's alive, but we have to look at every aspect and investigate everything."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Police-now-calling-case-of-missing-Tempe-baby-a/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx

Due to updates, I can't prove this, but this was the January 30th version of this article...the homicide investigation is not new. IMO.

ETA: Google cache of the article as it was 2-3-2010, so it's kinda proof that the statements had already been made regarding homicide prior to today, 2-6-2010.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:VScTAUagBrkJ:www.abc15.com/mostpopular/story/NEW-Texas-landfill-search-to-begin-for-missing/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx+It+is+a+very+real+poss ibility+that+Elizabeth+killed+Gabriel,%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Yep that's the article previously referenced. It's the media saying what LE said, not a quote.

ETA: I'll stick with the facts.

panthera
02-06-2010, 10:35 PM
The FBI has been involved from early on, even while Elizabeth was still in Florida. http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Update-Family-member-says-mom-of-missing-baby/1gW7IWXbyk-ZzYrCnWVD1g.cspx

Also, they were the ones in Nashville who checked out that one house where there was an indication Gabriel might be. http://www.kpho.com/news/22190418/detail.html
I realized they were assisting with the investigation early on, but I guess what I'm wondering about is who determines what agency will file charges if the crime qualifies under Federal statutes?

STEADFAST
02-06-2010, 10:40 PM
I realized they were assisting with the investigation early on, but I guess what I'm wondering about is who determines what agency will file charges if the crime qualifies under Federal statutes?

Sorry, I meant to quote Mels3kidz's post about the FBI being involved from the beginning. I'm surprised, too, that there aren't federal charges, considering the entire crime spanned multiple States. Maybe in the future? I could see the Federal Government not charging on a custodial interference case, but a kidnapping?

I just remembered that this came up in the Lauterbach case (because of perp and victim both being in the military) and I think we found out that the Feds tend to allow States to prosecute first.

kissdegirl
02-06-2010, 10:42 PM
Police Classify Baby Gabriel Case As Homicide
Procedural Step Taken To Move Forward With Landfill Search
POSTED: 2:32 pm MST February 6, 2010
UPDATED: 6:05 pm MST February 6, 2010

After Saturday's announcement, McQueary said he was relieved.

"I feel a lot more comfortable now with the San Antonio Police Department, the detectives there, they are actually doing a lot more than everybody knows," he said.

McQueary said he will continue to look for more clues on the belief his son is still alive.

"Gabriel's out there and he's out there somewhere," McQueary said. "We're hoping to find him."

http://www.kpho.com/news/22486917/detail.html

I like that he says they're doing a lot more than anyone knows, which, we know that hasn't included a landfill search yet. That means they ARE doing something, and I think they have reason to believe he's alive...a tip or something.
I'm also hoping that classifying this as a homicide will scare the colonics out of TS and EJ and someone will start talking and give them that missing piece LE needs. Logan is confident, so I am too.
I will not give up hope...nope....too stubborn :snooty:

Also, thinking back to the original phone call between the reporter, EJ, TS and JS....when JS says all that stuff about Gabriel being hidden until he can be "filtered back into society", and "you realize you will be charged for this, EJ says "for what", and TS says "murder", I'm thinking that JS was asking EJ in effect are you sure you want us to keep hiding him? Even if they charge you with murder? EJ isn't sure about that, and sounds a bit nervous and surprised when she says, I guess, no one said anything about that.

For the first time, I feel like this next week will bring about something. EJ is concerned, and maybe she will want to talk with TS again...which if she does want to, that in itself speaks VOLUMES IMO. Either/or/and TS, of hearing the investigation into a murder will really freak her out. I don't doubt she would "self sacrifice" and serve a couple years, and even think it's worthwhile to keep a baby away from it's father...but to think about more time in jail for an accessory to murder....that's a whole different story. I don't think she'll be willing to do that!

I wonder if they've looked at TS's colonics place there in SA? Could that be the place money/laptop/cell phones are hidden? Just curious.
ETA...finding my own answer to SA colonics place...lol Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ-Gabriel Johnson, 8 months News Media and Updated Information ONLY. No Discussion.

not_my_kids
02-06-2010, 10:56 PM
I take LE saying that they have to investigate everything, as was the direct quote, to mean homicide as well as missing. I just don't think they had termed it just a homicide investigation.

Now that it is no longer a dual investigation, SAPD had to pick one and they have more leeway with a homicide and more time to prosecute. So now the term of only homicide is on it.
I still don't see anything new about this. I'm not arguing that's just how i see it based on the statements that were already out there. I don't plan to let this worry me.

panthera
02-06-2010, 10:57 PM
Sorry, I meant to quote Mels3kidz's post about the FBI being involved from the beginning. I'm surprised, too, that there aren't federal charges, considering the entire crime spanned multiple States. Maybe in the future? I could see the Federal Government not charging on a custodial interference case, but a kidnapping?

I just remembered that this came up in the Lauterbach case (because of perp and victim both being in the military) and I think we found out that the Feds tend to allow States to prosecute first.
Thanks for the reminder about that case. So actually she could be facing charges from Arizona, Texas and the Feds. Good to hear!

Prof
02-06-2010, 11:15 PM
That's the media giving their interpretation of what Horn said. They've misinterpreted more than once.

If anyone has a direct quote of any Tempe PD officer saying that they have ever had an open homicide investigation in this case, I'd sure like to see that. I'd definitely want to show it to Gabe's family. Logan's dad, who is Tempe LE, would be particularly surprised.

Here is a direct quote from the Chief of the SA PD:

Posted on January 29, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Updated Friday, Jan 29 at 9:24 PMhttp://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

"We have not opened a homicide case," said Chief Bill McManus. "We're still considering it a missing persons case. And we're meeting to determine how to proceed in the next couple days."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/San-Antonio-police-plan-to-search-landfill-for-missing-Tempe-baby-83091942.html

and another:

Last Update: 1/29 10:07 am

"If we had reason to believe that the baby was dead, then we would open up a homicide case," Chief McManus told News 4 WOAI. "But right now, that's not the case, and the Baby Gabriel case remains a missing person case.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SA-Police-Chief-Bill-McManus-hopeful-Baby-Gabriel/tPKoEF7Bckm2kgjxjd0rFA.cspx

oh I get frustrated with sloppy reporting, too and we all do
BBM You are replying to my statement about Tempe with quotes from San Antonio, just to be clear

I know that there are statements out there from Tempe -- it was big news two or three weeks ago - of course the reporters sort of self-plagiarize if you will and simply update previous online articles and post them like they are new!
There are many older versions of that ABC article floating around the web
This is from the 19th when the pictures of Gabriel in the hotel were mailed

Reported by: Christopher Sign ABC15.com staff, wire reports
Last Update: 5:33 am

TEMPE, AZ -- Police confirm to ABC15 there are two, separate, yet parallel investigations involving the disappearance of 8-month-old Gabriel Johnson.

A team of detectives are working a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or killed him.

Tempe detectives have also released photos taken of the baby boy who has been missing since his mother left Tempe with him in late December.

Tempe Police Lt. Mike Horn said in an e-mail that the pictures were taken from Elizabeth Johnson's camera when she was arrested in Miami Beach, Florida nearly two weeks after the pair went missing.

Horn told ABC15 a group of investigators from the FBI, San Antonio Police Department, Maricopa County Attorney's Office and other agencies are actively involved in the case across the country.

Johnson was indicted by a grand jury Thursday.

Prof
02-06-2010, 11:17 PM
I am with you, on this not being new NMK -- no new evidence, just needing to cover all bases

Go Armes!

BeanE
02-06-2010, 11:20 PM
I agree that it is unlikely that there is new evidence of a homicide.

Ives
02-06-2010, 11:31 PM
I personally would rather EJ went to a Good "ol reg state penn, I have heard the feds is a cakewalk, and if your gonna go, then feds is the way to go. IMOO.

Logan will be on the news here tonight, I believe, maybe they will shed some more light on this info. Heard a blurb during commercial. New clues? or just the latest, and Gabriels daddy in town. I'm not sure, chasing/dressing kids when I heard it.

Ives
02-06-2010, 11:32 PM
I agree that it is unlikely that there is new evidence of a homicide.

How long would it take for forensics on the car? Not long right? I'm definately thinking too long since they got the car right??

Prof
02-06-2010, 11:34 PM
Also, thinking back to the original phone call between the reporter, EJ, TS and JS....when JS says all that stuff about Gabriel being hidden until he can be "filtered back into society", and "you realize you will be charged for this, EJ says "for what", and TS says "murder", I'm thinking that JS was asking EJ in effect are you sure you want us to keep hiding him? Even if they charge you with murder? EJ isn't sure about that, and sounds a bit nervous and surprised when she says, I guess, no one said anything about that.


Snipped for space

I agree that first phone call was abnormal-- but I thought Jack made that statement about waiting until Gabriel can be filtered back into the system on NG
regardless, did you notice that after the second interview as reported (not taped or discussed by reporter who was with Tammi) , Tammi said that EJ was told by this couple in SA that she should not worry, because they will keep Gabriel under the radar until he is old enough to enter back into the system and not be recognized?

I thought this a strange coincidence, maybe just because I have no ideas about illegal or underground adoption, but EXACTLY HOW does Jack know about illegal or underground adoptions and waiting until babies are older to enter them into the system? He said this weeks before Tammi reported EJ as saying this!

Is it just my clueless self? or is this the standard thing you hear said when a baby goes missing?

It has always bugged me -- very hinky
Did EJ get that language from Jack or Tammi in that first interview? or did Tammi feed those lines to EJ like she did with the "and Logan pushed you off the ledge" statement in ther first interview? or did TayJay and EJ get that information from the underground ahead of time?

Bringing this back, I do agree that they have not jumped on the landfill because the evidence weighs more on the side of an underground adoption in SA
Where's that witness who saw EJ and a couple on Christmas day? Why is he not allowed to do the media circus i mean circuit?:waitasec:

Amster
02-06-2010, 11:35 PM
I refuse to believe that Gabriel is dead.

Just let me have 2 minutes with Elizabeth....or 1....or 30 seconds...

BeanE
02-06-2010, 11:44 PM
How long would it take for forensics on the car? Not long right? I'm definately thinking too long since they got the car right??

Well forensics tests take varying amounts of time, depending what they find that needs to be tested. Can be days, weeks, months.

BeanE
02-06-2010, 11:48 PM
Snipped for space

I agree that first phone call was abnormal-- but I thought Jack made that statement about waiting until Gabriel can be filtered back into the system on NG
regardless, did you notice that after the second interview as reported (not taped or discussed by reporter who was with Tammi) , Tammi said that EJ was told by this couple in SA that she should not worry, because they will keep Gabriel under the radar until he is old enough to enter back into the system and not be recognized?

I thought this a strange coincidence, maybe just because I have no ideas about illegal or underground adoption, but EXACTLY HOW does Jack know about illegal or underground adoptions and waiting until babies are older to enter them into the system? He said this weeks before Tammi reported EJ as saying this!

Is it just my clueless self? or is this the standard thing you hear said when a baby goes missing?

It has always bugged me -- very hinky
Did EJ get that language from Jack or Tammi in that first interview? or did Tammi feed those lines to EJ like she did with the "and Logan pushed you off the ledge" statement in ther first interview? or did TayJay and EJ get that information from the underground ahead of time?

Bringing this back, I do agree that they have not jumped on the landfill because the evidence weighs more on the side of an underground adoption in SA
Where's that witness who saw EJ and a couple on Christmas day? Why is he not allowed to do the media circus i mean circuit?:waitasec:

Personally, I think that hiding the baby thing came up originally in the phone call prior to what was taped, which they've only released a few little clips from. Boy would I ever like to hear that whole thiing.

I have more of a feeling that EJ brought it up, and that Tammi and Jack were simply repeating what EJ said.

Ives
02-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Going to watch the news, If anything revealing on, I will be back, but otherwise, good night!

BeanE
02-07-2010, 12:00 AM
Maybe they haven't had a public announcement of their homicide investigation until now, but I have no doubt homicide detectives have been working on this case before today.



Now that I can most definitely agree with.

Ives
02-07-2010, 12:09 AM
So, The meeting with LM promted the "Official" murder investigation today, They will/are continue to follow up on other leads, Mcmanus did not look to optimistic when saying they have some things they are not sure will even pan out. plan to search the landfill as soon as weather permits(it was sunshine today, and yesterday, but just had a week of rain, FYI)
Landfill is their #1 priority now. and the homicide investigation is in conjunction with the missing persons.

I'm not very good at this, but I know it takes Ksat.com time to put their stories up sometimes.

ETA- Looks like the same thing that was posted earlier in the day.

mitzi
02-07-2010, 06:18 AM
Police Classify Baby Gabriel Case As Homicide
Procedural Step Taken To Move Forward With Landfill Search
POSTED: 2:32 pm MST February 6, 2010
UPDATED: 6:05 pm MST February 6, 2010

After Saturday's announcement, McQueary said he was relieved.

"I feel a lot more comfortable now with the San Antonio Police Department, the detectives there, they are actually doing a lot more than everybody knows," he said.

McQueary said he will continue to look for more clues on the belief his son is still alive.

"Gabriel's out there and he's out there somewhere," McQueary said. "We're hoping to find him."

http://www.kpho.com/news/22486917/detail.html

This statement from Logan is very encouraging! God Bless him and his family. Praying for a positive outcome.

BeanE
02-07-2010, 07:11 AM
oh I get frustrated with sloppy reporting, too and we all do
BBM You are replying to my statement about Tempe with quotes from San Antonio, just to be clear

I know that there are statements out there from Tempe -- it was big news two or three weeks ago - of course the reporters sort of self-plagiarize if you will and simply update previous online articles and post them like they are new!
There are many older versions of that ABC article floating around the web
This is from the 19th when the pictures of Gabriel in the hotel were mailed

Reported by: Christopher Sign ABC15.com staff, wire reports
Last Update: 5:33 am

TEMPE, AZ -- Police confirm to ABC15 there are two, separate, yet parallel investigations involving the disappearance of 8-month-old Gabriel Johnson.

A team of detectives are working a missing persons investigation and a homicide investigation at the same time because it is unknown if boy's mother gave the child away or killed him.

Tempe detectives have also released photos taken of the baby boy who has been missing since his mother left Tempe with him in late December.

Tempe Police Lt. Mike Horn said in an e-mail that the pictures were taken from Elizabeth Johnson's camera when she was arrested in Miami Beach, Florida nearly two weeks after the pair went missing.

Horn told ABC15 a group of investigators from the FBI, San Antonio Police Department, Maricopa County Attorney's Office and other agencies are actively involved in the case across the country.

Johnson was indicted by a grand jury Thursday.

BBM. Nope. I definitely wasn't replying to your quote about Tempe with quotes from SA. Just to be clear, I replied to your quote about Tempe and the other poster's quote about Tempe with this:


That's the media giving their interpretation of what Horn said. They've misinterpreted more than once.

If anyone has a direct quote of any Tempe PD officer saying that they have ever had an open homicide investigation in this case, I'd sure like to see that. I'd definitely want to show it to Gabe's family. Logan's dad, who is Tempe LE, would be particularly surprised.


Sorry you missed it.

To be even more clear, my quotes from the SAPD chief were in response to the comments from the other poster I quoted in my post regarding SA.

Neither Tempe nor SA PD had an open homicide investigation until yesterday, when SA began theirs.

Facts are facts. Some people like 'em, and some people don't. I appreciate that Tricia does. It's one of the things that makes WS the best crime forum on the net, instead of just another rumor mill.

BeanE
02-07-2010, 07:15 AM
This statement from Logan is very encouraging! God Bless him and his family. Praying for a positive outcome.

Very encouraging indeed! I was so glad to see that.