PDA

View Full Version : The Ring/Jewelry


BeanE
02-18-2010, 12:45 AM
Waiting impatiently for a link...saw on Gabriel's fb page that EJ had a $20,000 ring on her....waiting for a link and probably a new thread.... Why does all the new stuff come out late at night???
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?v=feed&story_fbid=324853477296&gid=251236072296

And there's the money we've been looking for.

Thank you so much, kissdegirl.

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 12:46 AM
And there's the money we've been looking for.

Thank you so much, kissdegirl.

I just really want to talk about it, so I can't wait for a link...ugh. I've been having a rough night thinking about him tonight, so this was welcome out of the silence.... :)

chell
02-18-2010, 12:50 AM
I love getting any update but especially love when it fits. This is from a post I left a couple of weeks ago. Forgive me for just copying it in, I couldn't figure out how to link it in.

QUOTE=chell;4790075]I think some kind of illegal placement occurred and I believe Elizabeth's laptop held many clues--that is, until she detstroyed it. EJ is smart and likely would have known to do this but even if she didn't, an illegal adoption/ trafficking outfit, which I feel certain it is, probably has a strict checklist and advisers telling her exactly what to do to avoid detection, hers and especially theirs. IMO TSs computer also held many clues. It is even possible in my opinion that the illegal adoption communications were handled only on a separate computer which was dedicated solely for this and could easily be moved, hidden or destroyed if it became necessary. By the time LE looked at the Ss or JMs computers anything that could link them could have been moved off-site and hidden. Remeber how anxious TS said she was to have them look at her communication devices? She said "i invite them" but she had a chance to get ready first and was well aware (for almost a month) that a raid, of sorts, would be coming.. IMO, they are not novices... to have an operation like this and get away with it for so long even when some of your operation locations are known (hotel, Six Flags) means you've been doing a great job at covering all your bases.


As for the money, I remember reading that EJ was frantic about having her grandfather come to the jail to pick up $300 and some jewelry (if it has alot of worth, maybe even that was part of the payment). I also know LE felt that the cash she had on her when she was found did not match what she is said to have sold. The money is hidden somewhere and all involved parties are being quiet to protect themselves only. I personally believe that EJ was paid something to cover all of her expenses and probably was to receive a large payment once the deal was completed. If there's a way to follow the money (looking at JS and JM) it could at least be known if they've done this sort of stuff before.


Anyone know if the hostel is known as being a stopping place for girls who have participated in an underground adoption? If so, it might be possible to see if there's a history for payment out-of-the-country.[/quote]

chell
02-18-2010, 12:52 AM
One more thing which I really hope is being done is watching the Ss, CC and JM like a hawk. It would be interesting to Know if they start shifting around in their skin andoffering explanations once they learn of this newest detail. If LE is getting closer, their collars are definitely going to feel tighter. I desparately hope all their communications are being monitored!

Jewelry of that value was most likely insured. Maybe there's away to check with jewelers in case it's new and insurance companies in case it's listed on a coverage plan.

kileyizzle
02-18-2010, 12:59 AM
As for the money, I remember reading that EJ was frantic about having her grandfather come to the jail to pick up $300 and some jewelry (if it has alot of worth, maybe even that was part of the payment).

I can't confirm this, but there has been recently on KPO that EJ was in possession of a 20,000 dollar ring, Which according to the whisperings that i've been hearing, Jewlery is often given to the girls instead of money so that they can pawn it later...

Easy to transport, it's small, basically it does make sense.

I'm sorry i have no links, or am able to confirm this yet, i'll do some digging around & see if i can come up with a link.

< Dang Australia, & no access to KPO, i should get cable >

BeanE
02-18-2010, 01:37 AM
Here's the ring story. No video yet, just the article so far:

Landfill Search For Baby Gabriel Begins Second Phase
But More Evidence Points To Gabriel Alive
KPHO.com
POSTED: 11:05 pm MST February 17, 2010
UPDATED: 11:26 pm MST February 17, 2010

"I'm not really worried about it that much because I don't think Gabriel is there at all," said Logan McQueary, Gabriel's father.

snip

He says he discovered several reasons to believe Elizabeth Johnson went to Texas to sell Gabriel, not kill him.

"It's looking like Elizabeth handed him off to somebody, and I don't think Elizabeth did what she said. I think she just said that to hurt me," said McQueary.

McQueary pointed to new evidence that Elizabeth was arrested with a ruby and diamond ring in her pocket worth approximately $20,000. He lived with her for two years, but he had never seen it before.

"Sometimes when they give the baby away for adoption, they hand over a piece of jewelry to the mother or someone who is handing over the baby as a payment instead of money," said McQueary.

snip

"I'm gonna keep searching, until they prove me wrong. Gabriel is still out there. He got handed off to somebody and we're gonna find him," said McQueary.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22597349/detail.html

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 01:53 AM
Awesome! I couldn't sleep before I saw the report, thanks BeanE!

BeanE
02-18-2010, 07:29 AM
Here's the old KPHO story about Eliz's grandfather picking up the $300 and the ring:

Elizabeth Johnson Calls Grandfather
POSTED: 7:53 pm MST January 16, 2010
UPDATED: 10:14 am MST January 17, 2010

Elizabeth Johnson called her grandfather, Bob Johnson. It was the first time they've spoke in nearly a week.

The two only spoke for a couple of minutes, talking about items she wanted him to pick up from jail. Johnson asked her grandfather to pick up the $300 she had when she was arrested in Florida, as well as an expensive ring she said she was wearing.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html

BeanE
02-18-2010, 07:31 AM
TayJay mentions EJ selling jewelry on NG:

Aired January 13, 2010

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1001/13/ng.01.html

SMITH: I asked her that. She told me that when she left she had $2,000. She sold jewelry, her laptop computer, her dogs. She got $400 for rent and she got a check. I asked her if these people even -- I said, well, did the people even give you money to compensate for the trip that you had to make? And she said no.

kileyizzle
02-18-2010, 08:30 AM
Commoditizing children would have the unintended consequence of increasing kidnapping and child-snatching. These things are already happening. In many developing countries, a woman has a far more valuable asset in her baby carriage than in her handbag. For a payment of $20,000 (half of which they keep for themselves), many underground adoption agents in the U.S., including some lawyers, will arrange for an American to adopt a child from a developing country.

I was attempting to do some digging & came across that paragraph, ironic in thats the estimated worth of the ring.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to say this in or not, but i'm starting to wonder, IF Gabriel had been sold, than this would of been the first handler < when she got the ring > Could it be possible at all, that Gabriel was then sold again or passed onto another group , in preparation to be sold to another family?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_19_116/ai_55127695/pg_3/?tag=content;col1 -- Most of this article is jibberish but have to cite it anyway.

That one paragraph just struck a chord is all

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 08:45 AM
One more thing which I really hope is being done is watching the Ss, CC and JM like a hawk. It would be interesting to Know if they start shifting around in their skin andoffering explanations once they learn of this newest detail. If LE is getting closer, their collars are definitely going to feel tighter. I desparately hope all their communications are being monitored!

Jewelry of that value was most likely insured. Maybe there's away to check with jewelers in case it's new and insurance companies in case it's listed on a coverage plan.

I agree that jewelry of that value would most likely be insured or appraised. Can anyone tell me how LE might reach out to insurance companies or jewelers with this information? It seems like it would be a huge undertaking, since they do not know an area to concentrate on. Is it possible a ring like that would have some unique identifying markers? I'm not that familiar with $20,000 jewelry pieces!

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 08:49 AM
I wonder what the suspected broker would have made then, since EJ's payment was a ring. I wouldn't doubt it was another $10,000. IMO.

So why was she so desperate for her grandfather to take the ring? And what has he done with it? He's been quiet...not that I suspect him of anything, just noticing is all. I wonder if EJ knew that LE knew how much it was worth? If she thought they had no idea, then I could see her getting her grandfather to take it away...and it may even be that there is an identifying mark on it.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
I wonder what the suspected broker would have made then, since EJ's payment was a ring. I wouldn't doubt it was another $10,000. IMO.

So why was she so desperate for her grandfather to take the ring? And what has he done with it? He's been quiet...not that I suspect him of anything, just noticing is all. I wonder if EJ knew that LE knew how much it was worth? If she thought they had no idea, then I could see her getting her grandfather to take it away...and it may even be that there is an identifying mark on it.

BBM. What leads you to believe that LE knew how much it was worth?

PoppyH
02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
Wow! Now thats a bombshell !!!!!!! Hmmmmmm, wonder how they found out it was worth 20k?? I hope the police have it as potential evidence! Most of all, I hope Gabe is safe!!!!

chell
02-18-2010, 09:05 AM
Who's to say the ring is the only payment? Or that the ring she wanted her grandfather to pick up was the payment ring? Somewhere I read that the grandfather had said the ring was supposedly fromEJ's grandmother. I don't know if he said which side of the family.

Let's just hope that if they are able to make a connection to the ring, we don't find out that it was stolen.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 09:13 AM
Who's to say the ring is the only payment? Or that the ring she wanted her grandfather to pick up was the payment ring? Somewhere I read that the grandfather had said the ring was supposedly fromEJ's grandmother. I don't know if he said which side of the family.

Let's just hope that if they are able to make a connection to the ring, we don't find out that it was stolen.

If the ring EJ wanted her grandfather to pick up was a ring from a grandmother, I think it logically follows that it is not the same as the ring LM refers to in this article.

Snipped

McQueary pointed to new evidence that Johnson was arrested with a ruby and diamond ring worth approximately $20,000 in her pocket. He lived with her for two years, but he had never seen it before.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22597349/detail.html

I haven't seen anything about EJ's GF saying that about the jewelry EJ wanted him to pick up. But if EJ was given a ring as payment, I could understand her urgently wanting her GF to pick it up, both so it was safe and so that LE didn't have it to look into.

I do believe if EJ had a ring worth that kind of money previously, LM would have known about it.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 09:14 AM
Who's to say the ring is the only payment? Or that the ring she wanted her grandfather to pick up was the payment ring? Somewhere I read that the grandfather had said the ring was supposedly fromEJ's grandmother. I don't know if he said which side of the family.

Let's just hope that if they are able to make a connection to the ring, we don't find out that it was stolen.

You're right. We haven't seen anything that says the ring was payment for anything. It's suspicious, but it could have been a gift that Logan didn't know about. It could have been from a family member. She could have stolen it.

Do you have a link for the information that the ring came from EJ's grandmother? I've been searching for jewelry and ring references, and haven't seen that. If her grandfather said that, it's important information.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 09:20 AM
You're right. We haven't seen anything that says the ring was payment for anything. It's suspicious, but it could have been a gift that Logan didn't know about. It could have been from a family member. She could have stolen it.

Do you have a link for the information that the ring came from EJ's grandmother? I've been searching for jewelry and ring references, and haven't seen that. If her grandfather said that, it's important information.

I posted a question in the questions for the family thread regarding this new information on the ring EJ was arrested with. You raise good questions in this post.

I have not seen anything about EJ's GF talking about the ring either, but it seems very important to rule out other origins of the ring as best we can.

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 09:31 AM
BBM. What leads you to believe that LE knew how much it was worth?

I guess I'm assuming that it was the ring that EJ had her GF pick up, and that since LM knew it was a $20,000 ring, it was LE that told him that information... LE or the PI?

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 09:33 AM
If LE knew there was such a ring though, worth that sort of $$, wouldn't it be kept for evidence and not allowed to go home with the GF?

chell
02-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Me too. And I've thought since I first read about her insistance that her grandfather come get the ring that there must be something about it that makes it pertinent to the case. I'm just putting it out there... the ring may not have been all she got. How would the average non-jeweler even know if the ring was worth anything? Getting it from her GM may just be the explanation EJ gave her GF. Good chance he might not know if a GM had given it to her or not and even better chance that he wouldn't know the market value. BUT... it sent alarm bells to me that she was so frantic to have him come get it! I also think she probably received other compensation too. Giving up G would be enough for mostr of us but she was also going to give up her identity and her remaining family. I feel like there had to be more offered than simply a ring that EJ had no known proof or worth other than these people assigning a value to.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 09:42 AM
If LE knew there was such a ring though, worth that sort of $$, wouldn't it be kept for evidence and not allowed to go home with the GF?

That's what I'm wondering. I'm not sure LE checked the value of the ring.

Jobless girl has no money in Tempe on Dec 18. Had to sell dogs, rent out room, etc, just to scrounge together $1,200.

Girl shows up less than 2 weeks later in FL with a $20,000 ring and no baby.

2 + 2 does not = search a landfill to me.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 09:42 AM
I can't wait for confirmation on this. Not a snippet of he said, she said in an article, but real confirmation.

Would it have been allowed to go home with the grandfather, if it exists and was thought at any point to be potential evidence? When did they have it appraised to determine it's value and actual make-up?

mysticrose
02-18-2010, 09:50 AM
Well this is certainly interesting news about the ring.. I would think a ring of that value would be able to be traced, however it is probally a long shot. Unless it is a specific piece that perhaps a jewler sales retail that has already been made when it reaches the store it will be hard to trace. The wedding ring my husband bought for me was made there at the jewlery store, he picked the setting and the diamonds he wanted in them making it unique in its own way, but you could not trace it back to the jewler.

I think that is why you see alot of jewlery at Pawn Shops and such, it is easy to steal and not really traceable ....

mysticrose
02-18-2010, 09:55 AM
The day EJ had the babysitter at the hotel , she could have had an appointment to pick up the ring and have it appraised at a jewlery shop...didn't she make the comment to the babysitter that she had alot of money or just recieved alot of money, something of the sort ? If she did have it appraised I hope LE is going door to door to jewlery shops around San Antonio with her picture ...

chell
02-18-2010, 09:56 AM
I understood from the News interview with the GF, that EJ's call to him was to get him to pick these items up from her at the jail. His comments were made the same day that he was not allowed to go into the jail to visit EJ.

chell
02-18-2010, 09:57 AM
EJ said to the babysitter that she had "come into some money."

chell
02-18-2010, 10:01 AM
I am sure I saw a news video with the GF (he was wearing a white sweater on this day) and he explained that she really wanted him to come pick up a ring that she had which had belonged to her GM. it was the day he was turned away from the Jail and not allowed tosee her. I'll look and see if I can find the link.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 10:15 AM
chell and mysticrose, could we have a link to the source reference for the babysitter saying EJ said she had come into money please? Someone mentioned it yesterday, and I searched and couldn't find it.

chell, could we have a link for the grandfather being unable to visit please?

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 10:17 AM
TayJay mentions EJ selling jewelry on NG:

Aired January 13, 2010

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1001/13/ng.01.html

SMITH: I asked her that. She told me that when she left she had $2,000. She sold jewelry, her laptop computer, her dogs. She got $400 for rent and she got a check. I asked her if these people even -- I said, well, did the people even give you money to compensate for the trip that you had to make? And she said no.

Gosh, I don't remember seeing this. Thanks for posting, BeanE. :blowkiss:

That whole statement is rubbing me the wrong way. EJ has always led us to believe that giving the baby away was kind of a spur of the moment thing and she randomly met a couple in San Antonio. I know that many of us believe it wasn't so random. But it strikes me as very hinky that TPS seems to be saying that EJ should have received compensation for the trip she had to make. If EJ made that trip with other idea's/plans in mind (as both she and TPS have always claimed) then why should she expect compensation for the "trip she had to make"?

BeanE
02-18-2010, 10:24 AM
Members and guests come to Websleuths for reliable info on the cases we sleuth. Let's stick to using established media, court documents, LE reports and so forth for source references rather than blogs.

If there's something particularly useful in a blog and it appears credible, and the info isn't available in news or court docs, let's take a look at it on a case-by-case basis.

Feel free to PM me or JBean, or post questions in the Threadiquette thread any time!

Thanks!
BeanE

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 10:27 AM
I agree that jewelry of that value would most likely be insured or appraised. Can anyone tell me how LE might reach out to insurance companies or jewelers with this information? It seems like it would be a huge undertaking, since they do not know an area to concentrate on. Is it possible a ring like that would have some unique identifying markers? I'm not that familiar with $20,000 jewelry pieces!

I hope LE has a good reason for not releasing pics/info about this ring. I am no expert on jewelry, and personally, I have no interest in huge or overly expensive jewelry. But my thinking is this.
1. I would wager a guess that a $20K ring would be somewhat of an original. Who wants to pay $20K for a ring that any other woman could own? JMO
2. As Boo Scout said, I think there is a good chance this ring has unique identifiers, and that a jewelry appraiser(sp?) or insurer would be able to recognize it.
3. I would also wager a guess that if someone owned a ring like this, there is a good chance that people have seen it on them, and close friends or family may know exactly who it belonged to.
4. It's possible the ring was just purchased as a way to give EJ payment without using any form of cash or checks, etc, that would be trackable. Is there a way to find out from local San Antonio Jewelry stores if such a purchase was made in mid to late December?

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 10:32 AM
The diamond in my wedding ring is coded. I remember seeing the number when looking at the clarity. Not only that there is a number inside the band. If the ring is worth that much it seems like it would be coded and able to be traced back to where it was purchased and the buyer. When I take my ring in to get cleaned they check the code to confirm it was purchased there.

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 10:34 AM
Are we sure the Grandpa was allowed to pick it up? I don't understand how LE could miss any possible form of payment.

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 11:11 AM
This particular ring may not be coded but it's possible especially if she didn't want to carry the cash and they went and purchased the ring recently. This is recent technology. Information on laser codes for diamonds or other gemstones:

Advances in micro laser technology in the past five years have made it possible to safely inscribe almost anything on a diamond or other gemstone, from personal messages to brand names, grading report numbers, bar codes and even photographs. In addition to personalizing a diamond, laser inscription can facilitate identification for security and tracking purposes. Typically diamond inscriptions are grading report numbers, brand names, logos or other data to aid in identification and tracking.

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 11:16 AM
Just speculating here, but if EJ was eager for her GF to get the jewelry, then that may be why the GF was not "allowed" to see her that day he went there with EJ's brother? And, at that point LE may have looked at the ring further? My $ is on LM's comment after meeting with SAPD that "they are doing more than anyone knows," which further makes me think they have looked into the source/history of the ring/stones. JMHO. :)

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 11:20 AM
That's what I'm wondering. I'm not sure LE checked the value of the ring.

Jobless girl has no money in Tempe on Dec 18. Had to sell dogs, rent out room, etc, just to scrounge together $1,200.

Girl shows up less than 2 weeks later in FL with a $20,000 ring and no baby.

2 + 2 does not = search a landfill to me.

I wonder if LE was getting pressure to do the landfill search, so much so that they had to do it....especially since they couldn't/havn't revealed any information regarding an illegal selling. I imagine their search for the source of the ring either deadended, or got so close they need a little more evidence for charges and such...thus the landfill dig?

OT, but will someone tell me when my head will stop spinning in this case? :innocent:

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:21 AM
I agree with the thoughts that a $20,000 ring is likely not going to be mass produced, and is most likely one-of-a-kind or few of a kind, and should be relatively easy to trace the source.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
Are we sure the Grandpa was allowed to pick it up? I don't understand how LE could miss any possible form of payment.

I'm trying to find the visits and visit denials.

This visit denial for Gramps and bro is Thurs Jan 14:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22242288/detail.html

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
chell and mysticrose, could we have a link to the source reference for the babysitter saying EJ said she had come into money please? Someone mentioned it yesterday, and I searched and couldn't find it.

chell, could we have a link for the grandfather being unable to visit please?

Snipped:

The brother of Elizabeth Johnson, jailed since her son Gabriel went missing around Christmas, was denied a jail house visit Thursday...

Robert Johnson showed up for the visit with his grandfather Bob Johnson. The elder Johnson said they were there to support Elizabeth but also to try to get her to come clean.

http://www.kpho.com/baby-gabriel-johnson/22242288/detail.html

Her GF did visit her on 1/18. She called him on Saturday, Jan. 16.

Snipped:

The two only spoke for a couple of minutes, talking about items she wanted him to pick up from jail. Johnson asked her grandfather to pick up the $300 she had when she was arrested in Florida, as well as an expensive ring she said she was wearing.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html

Do we know if he was able to pick up the ring??

Krisy
02-18-2010, 11:31 AM
Are we sure the Grandpa was allowed to pick it up? I don't understand how LE could miss any possible form of payment.

Just THINKING here... My guess is EJ wanted desperately for Gramps to pick it up but they didn't allow it. They kept it because they very much thought of it as possible payment and just never released the info about it.

Just a thought.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:32 AM
I'm trying to find the visits and visit denials.

This visit denial for Gramps and bro is Thurs Jan 14:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22242288/detail.html

Call from Eliz for Grampa to pick up jewelry wasn't until Sat Jan 16:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html

Still looking for more visits in this timeframe.

ETA: Ummm... I thought I was editing. Looks like I was quoting. Sorry. :-)

Video with brief clip of Eliz on phone to grampa Sat Jan 16:
http://www.kpho.com/video/22258496/index.html

Concernedmomarizona
02-18-2010, 11:38 AM
Video regarding the ring: http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

The concerning part to me is at the end of the video where the reporter states that Tempe LE handed the ring over to the grandfather and Logan says the Grandfather doesn't know where the ring is.... You have got to be kidding me if it's true.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:43 AM
Here's the Monday Jan 18 visit with grandfather following the Sat Jan 16 phone call requesting he pick up the $300 and ring.

Article doesn't say if he picked up the #$*(%&#$(*%& ring!!!

http://www.kpho.com/news/22266828/detail.html

GIVE US THE RING!!!!

Okay, I'll calm down now. :angel: :dance:

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 11:43 AM
Video regarding the ring: http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

The concerning part to me is at the end of the video where the reporter states that Tempe LE handed the ring over to the grandfather and Logan says the Grandfather doesn't know where the ring is.... You have got to be kidding me if it's true.

BBM!! :banghead::waitasec:

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 11:44 AM
Video regarding the ring: http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

The concerning part to me is at the end of the video where the reporter states that Tempe LE handed the ring over to the grandfather and Logan says the Grandfather doesn't know where the ring is.... You have got to be kidding me if it's true.

If EJ's GF was handed the ring, how could Logan know it's worth $20,000? When would a value have been assigned to it? If LE knew it was valuable, wouldn't they have deemed it evidence and not released it?

Gin
02-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Video regarding the ring: http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

The concerning part to me is at the end of the video where the reporter states that Tempe LE handed the ring over to the grandfather and Logan says the Grandfather doesn't know where the ring is.... You have got to be kidding me if it's true.

This is just unbelievable. If Tempe LE "handed" over the ring, surely Grampa would have had to sign for it.
If Grampa "lost" the ring, I am highly suspicious. How old is Grampa? Many folks of the age range I am guessing he is in are pretty big on safety deposit boxes. Does he have one???

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:53 AM
Transcribed by me from the KENs5 ring video:

Reporter: Well we've heard that Tempe Arizona investigators have handed the ring in question over to Elizabeth's grandfather, Bob Johnson.

According to Logan McQueary, Bob Johnson says he doesn't know where that ring is.

And I'd like to join you all in :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:56 AM
Soooo...

- Elizabeth has ring on arrest Dec 30 in Miami Beach
- Elizabeth calls Grampa Sat Jan 16 and says comes get my ring and $300 at Maricopa County jail AZ
- Grampa visits Eliz on Mon Jan 18. No reports that he got ring
- Sometime later Tempe PD comes into possession of the ring
- Tempe PD gives ring to Grampa
- Grampa doesn't know where a $20,000 ring is...

Oh and somewhere along the line somebody decided the ring is worth $20,000.

Is that all correct for what we have now?

Concernedmomarizona
02-18-2010, 11:58 AM
Transcribed by me from the KENs5 ring video:

Reporter: Well we've heard that Tempe Arizona investigators have handed the ring in question over to Elizabeth's grandfather, Bob Johnson.

According to Logan McQueary, Bob Johnson says he doesn't know where that ring is.

And I'd like to join you all in :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Both statements are absolutely ridiculous. Why would they give it to him?? And it is bizarre that the Grandpa doesn't know where it is....they need to search his house and investigate him if this in fact is a possible piece of key evidence. Is it possible he knew of her plan? (if this is not sloppy reporting).

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:58 AM
Wasn't there a report that LE told Grampa he could pick up his car and then Tempe PD told him they were going to hold it? I wonder if that's the timeframe Tempe gave Grampa the ring. If they gave him the ring. If there is a ring.

:banghead:

ETA: Well no wonder that seemed familiar. It's right in the article about the ring request call on Jan 16:

Johnson also said he's having trouble getting the car Elizabeth took off in back to Arizona. He said FBI agents gave him the all clear to come to Texas and pick it up, but Johnson said Tempe police told him they're going to hang onto it in case this turns into a homicide.

redfish
02-18-2010, 12:01 PM
Soooo...

- Elizabeth has ring on arrest Dec 30 in Miami Beach
- Elizabeth calls Grampa Sat Jan 16 and says comes get my ring and $300 at Maricopa County jail AZ
- Grampa visits Eliz on Mon Jan 18. No reports that he got ring
- Sometime later Tempe PD comes into possession of the ring
- Tempe PD gives ring to Grampa
- Grampa doesn't know where a $20,000 ring is...

Oh and somewhere along the line somebody decided the ring is worth $20,000.

Is that all correct for what we have now?

Yep, that about sums it up..... I sure hope Tempe PD will give a statement on this, but I doubt they will....

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 12:01 PM
Soooo...

- Elizabeth has ring on arrest Dec 30 in Miami Beach
- Elizabeth calls Grampa Sat Jan 16 and says comes get my ring and $300 at Maricopa County jail AZ
- Grampa visits Eliz on Mon Jan 18. No reports that he got ring
- Sometime later Tempe PD comes into possession of the ring
- Tempe PD gives ring to Grampa
- Grampa doesn't know where a $20,000 ring is...

Oh and somewhere along the line somebody decided the ring is worth $20,000.

Is that all correct for what we have now?

And don't forget, at some point, Logan heard or saw that it was a diamond and ruby ring. He must have at least heard a description of the ring in order to know that it wasn't one she had.

He may not know where it is because LE came and took it back and asked him to stay quiet about it, since the ring has somehow stayed quiet until now.

momtective
02-18-2010, 12:06 PM
Video regarding the ring: http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

The concerning part to me is at the end of the video where the reporter states that Tempe LE handed the ring over to the grandfather and Logan says the Grandfather doesn't know where the ring is.... You have got to be kidding me if it's true.

I would think this would easily verifiable. When EJ was arrested, on the intake sheet it would have listed EJ's belongings, the belongings would have been placed in an envelope with the contents listed on the envelope. Gramps or whoever picked up her personal belongings would have had to verify the contents and sign the log and the envelope stating that all the contents were there and that they retrieved them, right?

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 12:09 PM
And don't forget, at some point, Logan heard or saw that it was a diamond and ruby ring. He must have at least heard a description of the ring in order to know that it wasn't one she had.

He may not know where it is because LE came and took it back and asked him to stay quiet about it, since the ring has somehow stayed quiet until now.

I think that's a very possible explanation.
In this case, I've seen that any time it gets too quiet for too long, some little tidbit of info comes out. Usually, these tidbits lean more towards EJ giving Gabriel away rather than killing him. I've had a strong feeling for awhile now that there is a LOT of info not being released and a good reason for it.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 12:09 PM
I would think this would easily verifiable. When EJ was arrested, on the intake sheet it would have listed EJ's belongings, the belongings would have been placed in an envelope with the contents listed on the envelope. Gramps or whoever picked up her personal belongings would have had to verify the contents and sign the log and the envelope stating that all the contents were there and that they retrieved them, right?

I nominate you to go check the envelope ;-)

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 12:10 PM
I would think this would easily verifiable. When EJ was arrested, on the intake sheet it would have listed EJ's belongings, the belongings would have been placed in an envelope with the contents listed on the envelope. Gramps or whoever picked up her personal belongings would have had to verify the contents and sign the log and the envelope stating that all the contents were there and that they retrieved them, right?

To the best of my knowledge that is how it works. However, if the ring were listed seperately, as evidence, and they leter cleared it for return, I don't know.
I know that if you get arrested and you have an illegal weapon or stolen property on you, it doesn't always go on the intake sheet, because there is no expectation for it to be returned.
My only experience here is that I am the keeper of the family "bail money" account...sad, isn't it?

ETA: I misspoke, it would go on the intake list, to prove that it was in your possession when arrested, but it would likely not appear on the list that you sign of things to be released, if it is seen as evidence. That's what I meant to say. Sorry.

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 12:24 PM
I would hope they wouldn't take Elizabeth's word that the ring was her Grandmothers. Her grandparents are divorced so I guess the Grandfather could of thought it was her Grandmothers but now he can't find it??? The $20,000 ring?? Oh damn..

mysticrose
02-18-2010, 12:29 PM
Elizabeth Johnson Calls Grandfather
CBS 5 Is Only Station There
Elizabeth Erwin
Reporter, KPHO.com

POSTED: 7:53 pm MST January 16, 2010
UPDATED: 10:14 am MST January 17, 2010

Elizabeth Johnson called her grandfather, Bob Johnson. It was the first time they've spoke in nearly a week.

The two only spoke for a couple of minutes, talking about items she wanted him to pick up from jail. Johnson asked her grandfather to pick up the $300 she had when she was arrested in Florida, as well as an expensive ring she said she was wearing.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html

BeanE
02-18-2010, 12:36 PM
I would hope they wouldn't take Elizabeth's word that the ring was her Grandmothers. Her grandparents are divorced so I guess the Grandfather could of thought it was her Grandmothers but now he can't find it??? The $20,000 ring?? Oh damn..

Why would Tempe PD give away evidence of an underground adoption, unless they 1) screwed up, or 2) determined it's not evidence.

Something's not adding up here, one way or another.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 12:46 PM
Why would Tempe PD give away evidence of an underground adoption, unless they 1) screwed up, or 2) determined it's not evidence.

Something's not adding up here, one way or another.

It really doesn't add up here.

At some point the ring was assigned a value of $20,000, b/c I do not think LM would quote a value out of thin air. If the ring had been in LE's possession since EJ entered jail, then it stands to reason that LE had someone assign it a value.

If LE knew of its value, then it doesn't make sense they would give it to EJ's GF.

Unless as someone suggested they did give him the ring, and then got it back at some point and that's why EJ's GF does not know where it is.

Could it be that LE has the ring but does not want it publicly known at this time that it is in their possession?

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 12:52 PM
Why would Tempe PD give away evidence of an underground adoption, unless they 1) screwed up, or 2) determined it's not evidence.

Something's not adding up here, one way or another.

Remember, this may not be LE's fault. Wouldn't a judge have to sign a seizure warrant for them to retain the ring? Meaning that the determination of whether or not it was evidence would have fallen to the judge. I think.
They can't keep your property without probable cause if you sign the release slip, unless it is determined to be evidence, and I'm not sure that the police themselves make that call.

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 12:57 PM
Remember, this may not be LE's fault. Wouldn't a judge have to sign a seizure warrant for them to retain the ring? Meaning that the determination of whether or not it was evidence would have fallen to the judge. I think.
They can't keep your property without probable cause if you sign the release slip, unless it is determined to be evidence, and I'm not sure that the police themselves make that call.

You would think it would be considered evidence right away, after the arrest, the grandfather visited weeks later. I think LE has it in their possession if a value was given to Logan. Maybe the GF is saying he doesn't know where it is because he simply never was able to pick it up. I hope....geez.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 01:01 PM
At any point, did Logan say verbatim that the ring was worth $20,000 or are we working on only paraphrase? I have only seen the reporters say that it was worth that much.

kwatmac
02-18-2010, 01:05 PM
if she had her grandmother's ring before the trip, and she was selling jewelry and other belongings to finance the trip - wouldn't she have pawned a ring of that value??

that makes me think it was something that was acquired during the trip....

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 01:07 PM
if she had her grandmother's ring before the trip, and she was selling jewelry and other belongings to finance the trip - wouldn't she have pawned a ring of that value??

that makes me think it was something that was acquired during the trip....

That and the fact that Logan during their long relationship has never seen it before.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 01:10 PM
At any point, did Logan say verbatim that the ring was worth $20,000 or are we working on only paraphrase? I have only seen the reporters say that it was worth that much.

That is a good point. I posted this in the questions for the family thread this morning:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for the Family **No Discussion**

It would give us more insight into the ring.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 01:25 PM
That and the fact that Logan during their long relationship has never seen it before.

He had never seen the 3 cell phones in the trailer either, but again, that's a bit different. Logan's family has known Eliz since junior high school. I know if I had a $20k ruby/diamond ring, I'd show it to *everybody*.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 01:28 PM
He had never seen the 3 cell phones in the trailer either, but again, that's a bit different. Logan's family has known Eliz since junior high school. I know if I had a $20k ruby/diamond ring, I'd show it to *everybody*.

And if I owned it and received it legitimately, it would be on my finger, not in my pocket.

kwatmac
02-18-2010, 01:32 PM
And if I owned it and received it legitimately, it would be on my finger, not in my pocket.

precisely...

BeanE
02-18-2010, 01:33 PM
At any point, did Logan say verbatim that the ring was worth $20,000 or are we working on only paraphrase? I have only seen the reporters say that it was worth that much.

You're such a good sleuth :-)

I just went back through the articles and videos. Nothing directly from Logan on the ring's value. From reporters only, and no direct quotes.

danisisa
02-18-2010, 01:38 PM
EJ may have asked him to get the ring, but that does not necessarily mean he got it...Now, if people are asking him about a ring, of course he is going to say I don't know about the ring or it was just bad reporting.

Schatzi
02-18-2010, 01:38 PM
You would think it would be considered evidence right away, after the arrest, the grandfather visited weeks later. I think LE has it in their possession if a value was given to Logan. Maybe the GF is saying he doesn't know where it is because he simply never was able to pick it up. I hope....geez.

The news isn't reporting when the ring was appraised or valued, but it would be interesting to know the date that it was done ( & compare that to the supposed pick up date by GF), and if they have a requisition/approval process for that and the timeline of that itself.

Based on the GF's previous willingness to cooperate, it would seem more likely of him to say that he didn't pick up/recieve the ring, instead of saying he doesn't know where it is. It's that gray area of telling the truth without fully revealing himself - which is a bit suspect. At the same time, I don't blame the man for wanting to be vague if this is new information to him as well, or if it isn't - having to wrap his mind around the idea of that ring sitting in the sock drawer = Gabe.

Also, not all jewelry is etched, appraised, or insured or bought at mainstream stores. The amount of data out there (Insurance claims, stores, pawn shops) in TX alone would be massive and getting 100% co-op- uff) Besides, if it was passed within the family, tracking that would be difficult.

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 01:48 PM
Also, until we get clarification from the family/LE on that ring, we can't even know who asked the GF where the ring was. JJ, LE, LM, or media? I don't know how well LM may have got along with the GF, and if the GF would refuse to give LM any information. I don't want to assume the GF is being hinky, when, in fact he may be willing to do all he can to get Gabe back too.
It seems the only info we've obtained since Tempe handed over the investigation to SAPD has come from the family and JJ...just thinking aloud.

vjlaw
02-18-2010, 01:49 PM
FWIW, the ruby is EJ's birthstone. How big would a ruby and diamond have to be to be worth $20,000? Maybe that is what someone told EJ it was worth.

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 01:53 PM
Just a random thought here. If Gabriel was sold away, one way or another we are dealing with criminal minded people here. Assuming this ring was not EJ's GM's, is there a possiblity it was stolen before it was passed to EJ?
My thought process here is that IF this ring was payment to EJ for Gabriel, it would be more likely to have been either purchased or stolen. I just can't see someone giving away a family heirloom. But then, you know what they say about assuming....

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 01:59 PM
Just a random thought here. If Gabriel was sold away, one way or another we are dealing with criminal minded people here. Assuming this ring was not EJ's GM's, is there a possiblity it was stolen before it was passed to EJ?
My thought process here is that IF this ring was payment to EJ for Gabriel, it would be more likely to have been either purchased or stolen. I just can't see someone giving away a family heirloom. But then, you know what they say about assuming....

I considered the stolen angle, but the Google results for "stolen diamond ruby ring" nearly caused my head to explode and I don't know where else to go on that angle.

NewMommy09
02-18-2010, 02:03 PM
I considered the stolen angle, but the Google results for "stolen diamond ruby ring" nearly caused my head to explode and I don't know where else to go on that angle.

Wow, that bad?
UGH!!! Not sure that angle would break this case anyway, but I'm trying to throw my every thought out there in the hopes it helps in some way.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 02:03 PM
I had no idea it was so hard to find a $20k ruby and diamond ring. It is fun shopping though.

:dance:

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 02:03 PM
Just a random thought here. If Gabriel was sold away, one way or another we are dealing with criminal minded people here. Assuming this ring was not EJ's GM's, is there a possiblity it was stolen before it was passed to EJ?
My thought process here is that IF this ring was payment to EJ for Gabriel, it would be more likely to have been either purchased or stolen. I just can't see someone giving away a family heirloom. But then, you know what they say about assuming....

I too thought about that. I could see the people who want to adopt paying the broker, and the broker getting the jewelry to the mother. Being shady, as these brokers seem, it seems likely that the jewelry pieces or either stolen or maybe bought at pawn shops.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 02:09 PM
The expensive piece of jewelry was allegedly handed over to Johnson's grandfather, Arizona authorities said. However, McQueary said the grandfather denies any knowledge of the ring.

BBM. How interesting.

http://www.khou.com/news/national/Expensive-ring-may-prove-Baby-Gabriel-is-alive-and-adopted-father-says-84704682.html

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 02:19 PM
FWIW, the ruby is EJ's birthstone. How big would a ruby and diamond have to be to be worth $20,000? Maybe that is what someone told EJ it was worth.

I thought this was a very interesting question, since I have no idea, and if you had a ring really worth this much, you may very well NOT wear it b/c of its value, except for very special occasions.

So I did a quick google search and came up with this interesting link:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5277410

This ring sold in a Christie's auction for $20K - interesting that it sold 12/10/09 but I'm sure not related to this case.

Anyway, this is a big beautiful and very noticeable ring. Many people seeing it would wonder about its value so maybe LE did too if EJ had a ring something like this. So if the ring is really worth $20K, I'd expect it would be quite a ring to look at.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 02:20 PM
http://www.kens5.com/news/Crews-sift-through-landfill-debris-searching-for-Baby-Gabriel-84717472.html
Here's that $20 k figure again, but still no direct quote.

And his father believes he may have been adopted out in exchange for a $20,000 ring. In this meticulous search, crews are looking for a green diaper bag or a suitcase.

BeanE
02-18-2010, 02:25 PM
Would whoever's got the &^*# ring please call me?

Thanks.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 02:26 PM
I just want to know if anyone has even seen the flipping ring...

chell
02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
You've probably already got it by now but... here is one of the several places I've seen this info. Also, it was in a news videa I'm currently looking for (obviously with no luck as yet)
http://www.kpho.com/baby-gabriel-johnson/22242288/detail.html

chell
02-18-2010, 02:31 PM
Exactly. And that's just with what we know!!!

vjlaw
02-18-2010, 02:32 PM
I thought this was a very interesting question, since I have no idea, and if you had a ring really worth this much, you may very well NOT wear it b/c of its value, except for very special occasions.

So I did a quick google search and came up with this interesting link:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5277410

This ring sold in a Christie's auction for $20K - interesting that it sold 12/10/09 but I'm sure not related to this case.

Anyway, this is a big beautiful and very noticeable ring. Many people seeing it would wonder about its value so maybe LE did too if EJ had a ring something like this. So if the ring is really worth $20K, I'd expect it would be quite a ring to look at.
Thanks for the link. The platinum and 18k gold setting also add to the value. I think someone lied to EJ about the value. In my reading I found rubies come from Burma or Thailand so maybe whoever she got it from brought it in from another country. ughh....a human trafficker??

chell
02-18-2010, 02:37 PM
I wonder if he "lost" it, or they want the culprits to think they don't have it, or someone came in amd removed it. I'm in total agreement, you MUST be kidding!!!!

vjlaw
02-18-2010, 02:40 PM
I just want to know if anyone has even seen the flipping ring...

I think we need a reporter in Miami Beach to contact the arresting officer there to see if they can get anything from them. Doubtful they will, but supposedly it was on her when she was arrested.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 02:41 PM
The expensive piece of jewelry was allegedly handed over to Johnson's grandfather, Arizona authorities said. However, McQueary said the grandfather denies any knowledge of the ring.

BBM. How interesting.

http://www.khou.com/news/national/Expensive-ring-may-prove-Baby-Gabriel-is-alive-and-adopted-father-says-84704682.html

Also snipped from above article:
The distraught father bases his belief on several clues he's dug up on his own. The most recent revelation is a $20,000 ruby and diamond ring. She reportedly had it in her pocket when she was arrested.


This article says that she had it in her pocket, which makes sense to me b/c if the ring is really worth $20K, I don't know if she'd want to wear it just anywhere.

It's a small thing but this says the ring was in her pocket. In an earlier article about the call she had with her GF on 1/16, it says a ring she was wearing.

If the ring her GF was supposed to pick up is alleged to be the same ring that LM now is referring to, worth $20K, the GF knew about the ring from EJ's telephone call, which contradicts what is said in this article about the GF having no knowledge of the ring.

But this article again is not a direct quote from LM, so we don't know what his exact words were about EJ's GF's knowledge of the ring.

TearsforCaylee
02-18-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow ... lots going on lately regarding the case! In regard to the ring though, I'm a bit puzzled about the specifics. From the little I have heard about jail protocol for long-term stays, I have always been told as soon as you're booked into one, they make you empty your pockets and the jail keeps all your jewelry, etc until you are eventually released. I don't know if every jail does it that way, but I assume there is basically standard procedures that are pretty universal regarding those minute types of things. My brother-in-law is a police officer ... I could ask him I guess. But the reason I bring this up is if this is really true regarding the mystery ring, how in the world would EJ have still had it in her possession to even call her GF about coming to get it if LE had already taken it soon after she was booked into the jail? I know she was arrested in Miami initially, but wouldn't they have taken it and kept it along w/any of her other belongings at the time? I don't believe EJ would still have had it on her person at that time, but I could be wrong. Something just tells me we're somehow missing pieces of the puzzle here on this one.

chell
02-18-2010, 03:07 PM
Could it be that EJ's GF's answer was edited or taken out of context? He might have meant, "I no longer have it, gave it back to LE (or more likely left it with LE and I do not know exactly where they put it or what they are doing with it." And she may have asked him to come get her valuables not realizing they would NEVER be released just because she wanted them released,

The value could have come from EJ, if she's talking behind the scenes, based on what a broker may have told her. So... whether the stated value came from EJ or a LE appraisal, if she accepted it as a portion of payment that seems a very misplaced sense of trust. I doubt most ppl would never take the word of a relative stranger especially when there was no chance to expose that person if, in the end,they were being scammed. I'm back to wondering if someone EJ did trust reassured her that this form of payment was ok and confirmed a value. Not being a jeweler, how many of us could come up with a decent appraisal amount? Not me, I couldn't even get in the ballpark.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 03:07 PM
Wow ... lots going on lately regarding the case! In regard to the ring though, I'm a bit puzzled about the specifics. From the little I have heard about jail protocol for long-term stays, I have always been told as soon as you're booked into one, they make you empty your pockets and the jail keeps all your jewelry, etc until you are eventually released. I don't know if every jail does it that way, but I assume there is basically standard procedures that are pretty universal regarding those minute types of things. My brother-in-law is a police officer ... I could ask him I guess. But the reason I bring this up is if this is really true regarding the mystery ring, how in the world would EJ have still had it in her possession to even call her GF about coming to get it if LE had already taken it soon after she was booked into the jail? I know she was arrested in Miami initially, but wouldn't they have taken it and kept it along w/any of her other belongings at the time? I don't believe EJ would still have had it on her person at that time, but I could be wrong. Something just tells me we're somehow missing pieces of the puzzle here on this one.

It was hers, Miami would have sent it to Tempe with her. They keep your things until you are released or yousign a release for someone to come and get them. very few areas object to turning over someone's personal property if allowed. It's one less envelope they have to store.

chell
02-18-2010, 03:11 PM
Could it be that his answer was edited or taken out of context? He might have meant, "I no longer have it, gave it back to LE (or more likely left it with LE and I do not know exactly where they put it or what they are doing with it."

The value could have come from EJ, if she's talking behind the scenes, based on what a broker may have told her. So... whether the stated value came from EJ or a LE appraisal, if she accepted it as a portion of payment that seems a very misplaced sense of trust. I doubt most ppl would ever take the word of a relative stranger/shady underground person especially when there was no chance to expose that person if, in the end,they were being scammed. I'm back to wondering if someone EJ did trust reassured her that this form of payment was ok and confirmed a value. Not being a jeweler, how many of us could come up with a decent appraisal amount? Not me, I couldn't even get in the ballpark.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 03:19 PM
The value could have come from EJ, if she's talking behind the scenes, based on what a broker may have told her. So... whether the stated value came from EJ or a LE appraisal, if she accepted it as a portion of payment that seems a very misplaced sense of trust. I doubt most ppl would never take the word of a relative stranger especially when there was no chance to expose that person if, in the end,they were being scammed. I'm back to wondering if someone EJ did trust reassured her that this form of payment was ok and confirmed a value. Not being a jeweler, how many of us could come up with a decent appraisal amount? Not me, I couldn't even get in the ballpark.

Could EJ have gotten a value from someone in San Antonio at some point?

This still would not answer the question of how LM purportedly knows it is worth $20K, unless EJ is talking behind the scenes and LE told LM this value based on what EJ said.

Seems likely still though that IF the $20K value has any merit, there would be an appraisal somewhere along the way to back that up.

Right now we can't even confirm that someone has the ring now. :sick:

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 03:24 PM
did maybe someone give her appraisal papers when they gave her the ring? As proof that it was real and to make it easier to sell in the future?

If there was no broker, just a desperate couple, would they have slipped up by giving her the appraisal statement? If she got that, I'm willing to bet she would have had it on her and that's where the price estimate comes from.

Just thinking out loud.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 03:41 PM
did maybe someone give her appraisal papers when they gave her the ring? As proof that it was real and to make it easier to sell in the future?

If there was no broker, just a desperate couple, would they have slipped up by giving her the appraisal statement? If she got that, I'm willing to bet she would have had it on her and that's where the price estimate comes from.

Just thinking out loud.

It would be helpful if appraisal papers like that existed!

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 03:48 PM
It would be helpful if appraisal papers like that existed!

They could of shown her a grading report for the ring, it's a diamond and ruby ring. The diamond or diamonds could account for the value. That's the only way I can get 20k out of it.

A diamond grading report is a detailed explanation of a diamond's characteristics such as its cut, weight and dimensions. Many diamonds are certified by an independent laboratory so that purchasers can feel confident that their diamond is indeed of the quality the seller represents. A certified diamond's quality is guaranteed, and is therefore more valuable than an uncertified stone. A certificate verifies a diamonds identity and value and is recognized by all gemologists.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 03:55 PM
They could of shown her a grading report for the ring, it's a diamond and ruby ring. The diamond or diamonds could account for the value. That's the only way I can get 20k out of it.

A diamond grading report is a detailed explanation of a diamond's characteristics such as its cut, weight and dimensions. Many diamonds are certified by an independent laboratory so that purchasers can feel confident that their diamond is indeed of the quality the seller represents. A certified diamond's quality is guaranteed, and is therefore more valuable than an uncertified stone. A certificate verifies a diamonds identity and value and is recognized by all gemologists.

I have a report like that for the center diamond in my engagement ring. When I had an insurance appraisal done, the jeweler indeed was able to verify that the diamond in my ring was the diamond on the matching report. So certainly EJ could have received, or have been shown, something like that.

But the report alone would not show a value. I believe an appraisal would be needed to actually show a value.

I searched for ruby and diamond rings online - the ones I saw anywhere close to a price of $20K were certified, had platinum settings, and had 3+ carat rubies and 1+ carat diamonds. Quite something to look at.

Would EJ be naive enough to accept that a ring is worth $20K without some kind of proof, just based on seeing the ring?

Schmerty_Jones
02-18-2010, 04:01 PM
Wow ! According t this reporter "The father believes that Baby Gabriel was adopted out in exchange for a $20,000.ring!

TXHOPE
02-18-2010, 04:06 PM
Well she was willing to give him to the Smith's for free so I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't confirm the value. She may of just accepted the ring and took their word for it and handed Gabriel over.

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 04:10 PM
Well she was willing to give him to the Smith's for free so I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't confirm the value. She may of just accepted the ring and took their word for it and handed Gabriel over.

And it stands to reason that if she believed the ring was worth $20K that would represent a lot of money to EJ to start her new life with, which is purportedly what she was on her way to do before LE arrested her.

LaLaw2000
02-18-2010, 04:44 PM
I have not read every single post here but wanted to clarify how property of an arrestee is handled at booking after the arrest.

The arresting officer is to have searched the arrestee before coming to the jail/detention center. EJ's purse and whatever property she would have had on her would be brought in by the arresting officer. IMO, the ring would have been found on EJ before she even entered the jail. Everything is taken out of the pockets and so forth before entering the facility for security purposes.

IF EJ were wearing a necklace, bracelet, rings, or even had on earrings, she would have still had them on until booking. At booking all property is inventoried. Necklaces, rings, bracelets, and earrings, are described as: gold = yellow in color, stones are described by color = yellow ring with red stones. If any jewelry is silver, it is described as white in color. This is done because you do not know if it is real gold, real silver, or even valuable stones. This is done for a purpose. A booking officer cannot assign any value to the property of an arrestee. It is not done. Any jewelry would not be stored in the arrestee's property. Jewelry, watches, rings, and so forth are placed in the safe, or a locked area where only someone higher up than a booking officer can access. I know these things because I am a former Booking/Classification Lieutenant and supervised all of the booking officers. It was up to me to make sure all Standard Operating Procedures were followed in the Booking Department.

If LE wanted to determine the value of anything in the arrestee's possession, they would have to have a warrant to do so as well as a probable cause.

Maybe EJ wasn't wearing the ring because it did not fit her. Just gotta wonder if the ring was TS's size, as in the glass slipper in the Cinderella tale?

This may not be the thread to say it, but I believe Baby Gabriel is alive and hidden. I further believe that EJ, TS, and JS know exactly where he is. I keep Baby Gabriel and Logan in my prayers. I am so furious that EJ is sitting there in that cell knowing exactly what happened and willl not say. Even if Baby Gabriel is not located, I hope EJ is put away for a long, long, time.

JMO, and MOO's

LaLaw2000
02-18-2010, 04:51 PM
I just wanted to add that an arrestee/inmate can sign a form giving a designated person permission to pick up the jewelry and/or property they were booked in with. Usually not the money, tho.

JMO

LaLaw2000
02-18-2010, 05:02 PM
There is a video somewhere of the Grandfather and EJ's twin brother being filmed on their way in to see EJ. They came out a short time later and told the reporter that they were not allowed to visit because EJ's visitor time was taken by the lawyer(s) that day.

Of course, I have no idea when this was. I just remember seeing it. The ring questions could be cleared up so easily. Why are they not?

LaLaw2000
02-18-2010, 05:06 PM
Last post, I promise.

Even if EJ was given a ring in payment for Baby Gabriel, she could never get the full value of the ring by selling it or pawning it. Most pawn brokers buy valuables at a third or less of the real value.

I want to know the origin of this ring!!!!

IMO

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 05:08 PM
There is a video somewhere of the Grandfather and EJ's twin brother being filmed on their way in to see EJ. They came out a short time later and told the reporter that they were not allowed to visit because EJ's visitor time was taken by the lawyer(s) that day.

Of course, I have no idea when this was. I just remember seeing it. The ring questions could be cleared up so easily. Why are they not?

http://www.kpho.com/video/22241483/index.html

dnrslucky1
02-18-2010, 05:25 PM
I wondered about the GF picking up the money. When I had to bail a friend out of jail, I had to use my own money, even thou he had enough in his billfold at time of arrest.

As far as the ring, now days fake rings can look real to the naked eye. I, myself would have thought it was a cheap fake ring, why would LE have any reason to believe otherwise.

They arrest a young girl staying in a hostel with only a backpack of belongings, $300 cash and a ring in her pocket. They probably never gave the ring a second thought. Who would have thought she would be carrying a $20,000 ring in her pocket!

If it is true that the ring is worth $20,000 and the GF picked it up and can't find it, then he knows more than he is saying. Whether it was her GM ring or not!

JMO

danisisa
02-18-2010, 06:41 PM
Pawn Shops Somewhat near where EJ stayed. Mapquested them---Public info

Money Mart Pawn & Jewelry -
1621 Culebra Rd, San Antonio, TX 78201 US

EZPAWN
947 Bandera Rd, San Antonio, TX 78228 US

Old Fort Trading Post
750 N General Mcmullen Dr, San Antonio, TX 78228 US

Pronto Pawn
1047 Culebra Rd, San Antonio, TX 78201 US

DairyGirl
02-18-2010, 06:53 PM
I don't know why but I did not get excited hearing about the ring. To me, it's just a rumor at this point. I sort of remember hearing at the time that the grandfather said something about it being from her mother or grandmother. Maybe she kept it in a safe place until she took off and wanted something to remember them by? I just hope if he was given away that there is a way to find him. He seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth and no clues seem to be coming in. After all this time and EJ isn't talking? Isn't there some kind of way to work a deal with her? Time is of essence since who knows how many people could be involved and where he was handed off to.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 06:58 PM
I edited the whole post.

I got a response from the KENS5 reporter about the value of the ring. Can I post it?

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 08:24 PM
"It might be something. It might not be, but we're looking into it. It's a very expensive ring like $20,000.00 to $30,000.00 she never had before and all of a sudden she was arrested with it," said McQueary.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2010/02/18/20100218gabrielfundraiser02182010-CR.html

Ask a bunch of reporters for a quote and eventually someone will cough one up.

kissdegirl
02-18-2010, 09:05 PM
"It might be something. It might not be, but we're looking into it. It's a very expensive ring like $20,000.00 to $30,000.00 she never had before and all of a sudden she was arrested with it," said McQueary.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2010/02/18/20100218gabrielfundraiser02182010-CR.html

Ask a bunch of reporters for a quote and eventually someone will cough one up.

:martini:

BeanE
02-18-2010, 09:08 PM
Ask a bunch of reporters for a quote and eventually someone will cough one up.

Can I quote you on that?

:angel:

~PrinceSSa~
02-18-2010, 09:12 PM
I wondered about the GF picking up the money. When I had to bail a friend out of jail, I had to use my own money, even thou he had enough in his billfold at time of arrest.

As far as the ring, now days fake rings can look real to the naked eye. I, myself would have thought it was a cheap fake ring, why would LE have any reason to believe otherwise.

They arrest a young girl staying in a hostel with only a backpack of belongings, $300 cash and a ring in her pocket. They probably never gave the ring a second thought. Who would have thought she would be carrying a $20,000 ring in her pocket!

If it is true that the ring is worth $20,000 and the GF picked it up and can't find it, then he knows more than he is saying. Whether it was her GM ring or not!

JMO

BBM
is this rumor or fact or assumption?
If in fact it is true and gramps can't find the ring, how convenient is that:waitasec: Then it cannot be traced......:banghead:


It probably has been mentioned somewhere in this thread in earlier pages (still catching up) my assumption is that Elizabeth went with whomever was planning to give the ring to her as payment to have it appraised. Perhaps that was why she needed a babysitter for a couple of hours and it would explain why she was in a much better mood upon returning to her hotelroom, knowing she'd have this ring.

On the 26th of dec, Elizabeth leaves her hotelroom and Gabriel behind in exchange for the ring, sits in her car for 10 minutes to admire such ring before boarding a bus.

not_my_kids
02-18-2010, 09:18 PM
Can I quote you on that?

:angel:
Okay, if you're gonna quote me, make it "Beg a bunch of reporters..."
I pretty much was begging.

~PrinceSSa~
02-18-2010, 09:21 PM
Could it be Grandpa didn't know the value of the ring <and misplaced it>
Could it be Grandpa knew about EJ plan all along and made the ring 'disappear'

???

BeanE
02-18-2010, 09:37 PM
Okay, if you're gonna quote me, make it "Beg a bunch of reporters..."
I pretty much was begging.

Here's another quote for you, from Logan, in this video at 1:35, transcribed by me, just for you lol.

Logan: The Tempe police appraised the ring and it appraised at about 20 to 30 thousand dollars.

ETA: Corrected link: http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/tammi_smith_not_guilty_021810

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 09:44 PM
Here's another quote for you, from Logan, in this video at 1:35, transcribed by me, just for you lol.

Logan: The Tempe police appraised the ring and it appraised at about 20 to 30 thousand dollars.

When? When did Tempe PD appraise it, and do they or do they not have the ring now?

And isn't $20-$30K quite a range of an appraisal for a ring? Suggests maybe an informal appraisal rather than a real detailed in-depth appraisal.

Prof
02-18-2010, 09:48 PM
Do we have a source for the information that the ring was picked up, and now the GF does not know where it is, yet?:waitasec:

Does the link BeanE posted of the Logan video work for anyone else here?

I need a new laptop!:loser:
Speaking of poor me, :blushing:is it me or does 10K seem like a large gap in an appraisal?

Prof
02-18-2010, 09:51 PM
When? When did Tempe PD appraise it, and do they or do they not have the ring now?

And isn't $20-$30K quite a range of an appraisal for a ring? Suggests maybe an informal appraisal rather than a real detailed in-depth appraisal.

OH good-- it's not just me lol Yes, it does seem like an informal appraisal with a 33% margin for error
I should have refreshed the page before posting

Boo Scout
02-18-2010, 09:54 PM
Do we have a source for the information that the ring was picked up, and now the GF does not know where it is, yet?:waitasec:

Does the link BeanE posted of the Logan video work for anyone else here?

I need a new laptop!:loser:
Speaking of poor me, :blushing:is it me or does 10K seem like a large gap in an appraisal?

I get a blank page with BeanEs link.

I don't see how a range of $20K - $30K could really be an appraisal - I've never seen a range like that. But I have to say, that has to be some ruby and diamond ring!

Prof
02-18-2010, 09:58 PM
Here the report is "close to" 30 K
http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1288.shtml

I was hoping to catch a live stream of the story SA Fox is running about their 2 month search into the world of underground adoptions in about 2 minutes, but I guess I will have to wait until they upload the video

BeanE
02-18-2010, 10:00 PM
Well that link's not even working for me. Let me see if I can grab a working URL :-)

ETA: Sorry. No idea where in the world I got that URL. It was way off. Here's the correct URL for the article. Video on the left:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/tammi_smith_not_guilty_021810

Prof
02-18-2010, 10:10 PM
There is no video yet as it is being aired right now in SA, but there is the text underneath where the video will be once it is linked

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1288.shtml

Snipped
After investigating for two months Fox News at Nine has learned about a dirty secret of how birth mothers are paid with expensive jewelry. That led Gabriel's father to police who admitted that the baby's mother had a ring worth close to $30,000 on her when she was arrested. Yami Virgin has this special report. Underground Adoptions

Kamille
02-18-2010, 10:13 PM
Is it possible that LE released the ring to the GF who in turn showed it to LM? And when LM didn't recognize the ring, it was turned back in to LE to be looked into as possible evidence? Do we know if LM and the GF are on good terms and if the GF has been co-operative with him with regards to any information he can provide? I thought I'd read that the GF was rather fond of LM.

Prof
02-18-2010, 10:21 PM
Good questions, Kamille --

According to that link I just posted it claims that Logan found out about how some mothers are paid in jewelry which led him to question LE about the jewelry EJ had --

I wish we knew for sure if the GF picked it up, and if he does not really know where it is!

BeanE
02-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Two of the articles (discussed and links posted earlier today) say that Tempe PD gave the ring to grampa.

We couldn't find any articles indicating that grampa picked up the ring from Eliz at jail.

Grampa certainly seems fond of Logan. I haven't seen or heard anything to indicate any rifts.

Prof
02-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Okay, thanks BeanE

"The expensive piece of jewelry was allegedly handed over to Johnson's grandfather, Arizona authorities said. However, McQueary said the grandfather denies any knowledge of the ring."

IMO this has to be a misinterpretation of the facts -- I don't think we really know for sure that he picked it up, or that he does not know about the ring
http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html

Kamille
02-18-2010, 11:02 PM
Wasn't it the GF who told the media that EJ had asked him in a phone call to pick up the money and the expensive ring. So now he is denying any knowledge of it? I can understand him denying that he picked it up but I thought it was him who first mentioned this ring in the media. :waitasec:

Prof
02-18-2010, 11:13 PM
It is very strange, Kamille, and bugging the heck out of me-- hopefully we will find out more about this tomorrow

BeanE
02-18-2010, 11:22 PM
Wasn't it the GF who told the media that EJ had asked him in a phone call to pick up the money and the expensive ring. So now he is denying any knowledge of it? I can understand him denying that he picked it up but I thought it was him who first mentioned this ring in the media. :waitasec:

Yes, if you go back to the discussions earlier today, we found the news stories and posted dates, links, etc.

I haven't seen anything that says he denies picking it up. I see the recent ring articles saying Tempe gave it to him, and I see him saying he doesn't know where it is.

Of course, a lot of this is the reporter saying whoever said, Logan saying whoever said, a reporter saying Logan said grampa said, etc, and little to nothing in the way of video or direct quotes.

As Prof said, maybe we'll find out more tomorrow. Maybe we'll find out some facts over the next few weeks.

Cher352
02-19-2010, 02:27 AM
Wow ! According t this reporter "The father believes that Baby Gabriel was adopted out in exchange for a $20,000.ring!

I saw this one statement too on that article but don't remember that being brought up before and the article gave no reasoning on why he thought that.... was EJ found with a new ring??

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 08:49 AM
I would hope they wouldn't take Elizabeth's word that the ring was her Grandmothers. Her grandparents are divorced so I guess the Grandfather could of thought it was her Grandmothers but now he can't find it??? The $20,000 ring?? Oh damn..

Where is the information that the Grandfather said he can't find it? Is the Grandmother who lives in Boston the Grandfather's exwife?

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 08:52 AM
Why would Tempe PD give away evidence of an underground adoption, unless they 1) screwed up, or 2) determined it's not evidence.

Something's not adding up here, one way or another.

I suspect the answer is 1:( I have been more disturbed about Texas law since learning of the illegal adoptions and how quick Texas rips Dads rights away. I can't help but believe there is some financial benefit for the state in this. I am a Texan, born and raised, but I have been ashamed of Texas since my 13 year old grandson regressed into autism, and I discovered there is no help, or very little here. Our state ranks on the bottom for funding and services for those with disabilities.

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 08:55 AM
Remember, this may not be LE's fault. Wouldn't a judge have to sign a seizure warrant for them to retain the ring? Meaning that the determination of whether or not it was evidence would have fallen to the judge. I think.
They can't keep your property without probable cause if you sign the release slip, unless it is determined to be evidence, and I'm not sure that the police themselves make that call.

Given the circumstances of this case so far, it would be easy to get a judge to sign a warrant to confiscate the ring.

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 08:58 AM
At any point, did Logan say verbatim that the ring was worth $20,000 or are we working on only paraphrase? I have only seen the reporters say that it was worth that much.

I heard Logan say $20,000, and yet in the written article in the same story Yami wrote $30,000. That is big difference. He said it wasn't EJ's because he lived with her for 2 years, and he knows what jewelry she had then, and that she had low paying jobs. It is obvious that this is connected to GJ, in my opinion.

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:00 AM
if she had her grandmother's ring before the trip, and she was selling jewelry and other belongings to finance the trip - wouldn't she have pawned a ring of that value??

that makes me think it was something that was acquired during the trip....

I wonder why we never hear from the Grandmother. You would think that the media would be interested in her, given the fact they EJ said the ring came from her. Would LM tell the public she had the ring, and he believes it is connected to his son's disappearance, if LE had spoken with the Grandmother and she verified she did give such a valuble ring to an unstable 23 year old woman. A ring of that type should/would be in a safety deposit box!

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:01 AM
He had never seen the 3 cell phones in the trailer either, but again, that's a bit different. Logan's family has known Eliz since junior high school. I know if I had a $20k ruby/diamond ring, I'd show it to *everybody*.

Ditto!

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:03 AM
You're such a good sleuth :-)

I just went back through the articles and videos. Nothing directly from Logan on the ring's value. From reporters only, and no direct quotes.

There was a link to a video posted, I think AZ something, Logan did say it was worth about $20,000. Sorry if I am repeating something I have already posted. Look at the video and read the article by Yami under it.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 09:05 AM
I wonder why we never hear from the Grandmother. You would think that the media would be interested in her, given the fact they EJ said the ring came from her. Would LM tell the public she had the ring, and he believes it is connected to his son's disappearance, if LE had spoken with the Grandmother and she verified she did give such a valuble ring to an unstable 23 year old grandmother. A ring of that type should/would be in a safety deposit box!

Do you have a link to confirm that EJ said the ring came from her grandmother? This has been stated several times, and I'm still looking for the source of this info.

Thanks!

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:14 AM
The news isn't reporting when the ring was appraised or valued, but it would be interesting to know the date that it was done ( & compare that to the supposed pick up date by GF), and if they have a requisition/approval process for that and the timeline of that itself.

Based on the GF's previous willingness to cooperate, it would seem more likely of him to say that he didn't pick up/recieve the ring, instead of saying he doesn't know where it is. It's that gray area of telling the truth without fully revealing himself - which is a bit suspect. At the same time, I don't blame the man for wanting to be vague if this is new information to him as well, or if it isn't - having to wrap his mind around the idea of that ring sitting in the sock drawer = Gabe.

Also, not all jewelry is etched, appraised, or insured or bought at mainstream stores. The amount of data out there (Insurance claims, stores, pawn shops) in TX alone would be massive and getting 100% co-op- uff) Besides, if it was passed within the family, tracking that would be difficult.

The thought has crossed my mind that the ring is stolen property given to EJ from the underground adoption ring. Couldn't they be criminal in others ways besides black market adoption?

curves
02-19-2010, 09:17 AM
Isn't this ring the best lead they have? Why haven't LE released a picture or description of ii to the media? I think most women with a ring that expensive would show it off as much as possible - there is a good chance someone will recognise it which could lead them right to the person who has Gabriel.

Boo Scout
02-19-2010, 09:27 AM
Isn't this ring the best lead they have? Why haven't LE released a picture or description of ii to the media? I think most women with a ring that expensive would show it off as much as possible - there is a good chance someone will recognise it which could lead them right to the person who has Gabriel.

From the information that has been released thus far, it's not clear where the ring is right now. AZ authorities seemed to indicate that it was released to EJ's GF, but EJ's GF does not seem to know where it is. In one article, LM said the GF denies any knowledge of the ring, while in the articles going back to the phone call between EJ and her GF on 1/16, the GF stated that EJ wanted him to pick up $300 and a ring she was wearing.

The problem is that we do not have verified information on the ring right now. We have news articles, but the information seems to conflict.

I think we need to know if someone actually has the ring now and when the appraisal was done and by whom.

There may be reasons if LE has the ring that they don't release a picture of it right now.

kissdegirl
02-19-2010, 09:35 AM
http://www.kpho.com/video/22258496/index.html
http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html

Elizabeth Johnson called her grandfather, Bob Johnson. It was the first time they've spoke in nearly a week.

The two only spoke for a couple of minutes, talking about items she wanted him to pick up from jail. Johnson asked her grandfather to pick up the $300 she had when she was arrested in Florida, as well as an expensive ring she said she was wearing.

The call came just minutes after Bob told CBS 5 he wasn't sure his great-grandson was still alive.

I guess we know which reporter to ask for raw video of the GF statement regarding an expensive ring? They were the only media there during that call.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 09:41 AM
I hope an enterprising reporter will interview grampa today, and release video - and not just tell us his/her version of what grampa says.

I wonder if it would help if we wrote to some of the local reporters who cover Gabe's case in SA and Phoenix and tell them how much we appreciate when they give us video and direct quotes. Even if just a couple of them pay attention and deliver, it would be so helpful.

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:54 AM
Well she was willing to give him to the Smith's for free so I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't confirm the value. She may of just accepted the ring and took their word for it and handed Gabriel over.

I recall that the Smiths promised her a house in Tennesse, and I suspect there was more offered we haven't heard about. She wanted to adopt EJ, which is unbelievable. I also suspect that LM heard about the ring from LE, because he changed his opinion of them after meeting with them. They must have shared info that none of us know at this time.

NewMommy09
02-19-2010, 09:54 AM
Do you have a link to confirm that EJ said the ring came from her grandmother? This has been stated several times, and I'm still looking for the source of this info.

Thanks!

Good Morning friend. :)

I've been wanting verification on this too. I VAGUELY remember hearing something about the ring possibly being from EJ's grandmother. But I don't recall that info came from a media source. I'm thinking it was a possibility brought up here on WS early on when everyone was discussing this ring. I'm gonna try to go back and find the timeframe of those discussions. If I find it, I will post a link. I could be wrong about this, and maybe it really was reported somewhere.

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:57 AM
Last post, I promise.

Even if EJ was given a ring in payment for Baby Gabriel, she could never get the full value of the ring by selling it or pawning it. Most pawn brokers buy valuables at a third or less of the real value.

I want to know the origin of this ring!!!!

IMO

Maybe she was given information on where the market is for the ring instead of a pawn shop. A third of $20,000 would probably be a fortune to a young woman like her. Also, if they find Gabriel, and are able to prove that she accepted this ring, in exchange for Gabriel, wouldn't that be the same as selling him? Isn't that illegal, and what is the punishment for the crime?

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 09:58 AM
I wondered about the GF picking up the money. When I had to bail a friend out of jail, I had to use my own money, even thou he had enough in his billfold at time of arrest.

As far as the ring, now days fake rings can look real to the naked eye. I, myself would have thought it was a cheap fake ring, why would LE have any reason to believe otherwise.

They arrest a young girl staying in a hostel with only a backpack of belongings, $300 cash and a ring in her pocket. They probably never gave the ring a second thought. Who would have thought she would be carrying a $20,000 ring in her pocket!

If it is true that the ring is worth $20,000 and the GF picked it up and can't find it, then he knows more than he is saying. Whether it was her GM ring or not!

JMO

Did he sell it?

vjlaw
02-19-2010, 10:04 AM
If she didn't ask the grandfather to get the ring until Jan. 19th,iirc, then that was several days after her arrival to Maricopa county. That seems to me to be several days to wait to have someone come retrieve a ring that expensive. I can understand the grandfather, if he has it, not wanting anyone to know. That is a big piece of jewelry to have laying around the house for the national media knowing he has. Could be a good chance someone might steal it. I know nothing about jewelry, but it seems it might take awhile to find or set a ruby and diamond worth $20k. Especially since it is EJ's birthstone. I don't think that was an accident. They must have underground jewelry suppliers. jmo

CathyinTexas
02-19-2010, 10:04 AM
Do you have a link to confirm that EJ said the ring came from her grandmother? This has been stated several times, and I'm still looking for the source of this info.

Thanks!

No, I don't have a link, but have read it here at WS. Could that info have come from the mouth of TPS on NG?

NewMommy09
02-19-2010, 10:08 AM
OK, I used the search engine and it looks like a lot of our earlier discussion about the ring was in thread #11. If anyone else wants to help scour that thread with me....

Boo Scout
02-19-2010, 10:15 AM
If she didn't ask the grandfather to get the ring until Jan. 19th,iirc, then that was several days after her arrival to Maricopa county. That seems to me to be several days to wait to have someone come retrieve a ring that expensive. I can understand the grandfather, if he has it, not wanting anyone to know. That is a big piece of jewelry to have laying around the house for the national media knowing he has. Could be a good chance someone might steal it. I know nothing about jewelry, but it seems it might take awhile to find or set a ruby and diamond worth $20k. Especially since it is EJ's birthstone. I don't think that was an accident. They must have underground jewelry suppliers. jmo

I did some internet searching yesterday b/c I was curious exactly what you'd get for a ruby / diamond ring worth $20K (or maybe even $30K).

It would be quite a ring, and imo, not very common. The rings I saw for anywhere near $20K had platinum settings, large rubies (3+ carats), and at least 1 carat of diamonds. They were also from well-known high-end jewelry names like Tiffany's.

It would seem like a ring like that could be traced. But if they had it custom-made for this purpose, probably not.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 10:19 AM
OK, I used the search engine and it looks like a lot of our earlier discussion about the ring was in thread #11. If anyone else wants to help scour that thread with me....

Please list the URLs for any posts you all want moved into this thread in the Threadiquette thread, and I'll move them right over.

You can copy any post URL by right clicking the post number in the upper right hand corner of the post next to the red triangle alert button.

Thanks!
BeanE

LaLaw2000
02-19-2010, 10:54 AM
Here's another quote for you, from Logan, in this video at 1:35, transcribed by me, just for you lol.

Logan: The Tempe police appraised the ring and it appraised at about 20 to 30 thousand dollars.

ETA: Corrected link: http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/tammi_smith_not_guilty_021810

Just now catching up this morning. If the Tempe police had the ring appraised, then somewhere there will be paperwork where the police removed the ring for appraisal. Even the police cannot remove property of an arrestee without showing good cause. Logan's statement of the Tempe police appraising the ring is not clear. I doubt that a police officer could do an accurate appraisal.

Bless Logan's heart. He has been fed such a line of BS by EJ as well as by TS. I encourage him to keep digging along with his PI. He deserves to know what happened to his son and to have Gabriel returned to him.

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 11:12 AM
I did some internet searching yesterday b/c I was curious exactly what you'd get for a ruby / diamond ring worth $20K (or maybe even $30K).

It would be quite a ring, and imo, not very common. The rings I saw for anywhere near $20K had platinum settings, large rubies (3+ carats), and at least 1 carat of diamonds. They were also from well-known high-end jewelry names like Tiffany's.

It would seem like a ring like that could be traced. But if they had it custom-made for this purpose, probably not.

How obvious would a giant ruby be but I guess it's possible. I honestly think the value was in the diamonds in the ring and it probably had ruby accents. What I don't understand is how LE could have it appraised and then let it leave evidence (HUGE evidence), go back to her personal belongings and give it to Grandpa. That doesn't seem possible.

~PrinceSSa~
02-19-2010, 12:01 PM
If Elizabeth herself bought the ring legally it would automatically come with an appraisal card on which it states the ring value, the size of the diamonds, a registered number for insurance purposes, the clarity of the diamonds and much more. I have such a card that came w/my ring and I will look to see what exactly it says.
If indeed she purchased the ring as oppose to carrying cash on her trip, I am confident that salesperson would remember selling such ring to a young lady and probably have it on surveillance as well.

If she received the ring as payment from someone, it is possible that she went with those person/s to have it sized since she was actually 'wearing' it upon her arrest. Most rings are bigger and need downsizing, rather than sizing up to fit her little finger.

If the ring belonged to grandma, could grandma not verify that easily?

If grandpa 'lost' the ring, I am sure he knows more about the whole hinky story.

So many questions.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 12:06 PM
No, I don't have a link, but have read it here at WS. Could that info have come from the mouth of TPS on NG?

No, I've got all the NG transcripts in one big file for quick and easy searching. Nothing in there. I haven't been able to find anything Googling either.

It needs to be substantiated with a link. It's growing legs.

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 12:10 PM
No, I've got all the NG transcripts in one big file for quick and easy searching. Nothing in there. I haven't been able to find anything Googling either.

It needs to be substantiated with a link. It's growing legs.

Ugh, where did we hear that???? I think I remember it coming from the grandfather in an interview and he said it may be her grandmothers but he wasn't sure. Maybe I'm imagining things. I'll keep looking for the link too.

I remember thinking-I guess they've been divorced for awhile and have no contact if he doesn't even know if it's her grandmothers ring for sure.

Gin
02-19-2010, 01:20 PM
If Elizabeth herself bought the ring legally it would automatically come with an appraisal card on which it states the ring value, the size of the diamonds, a registered number for insurance purposes, the clarity of the diamonds and much more. I have such a card that came w/my ring and I will look to see what exactly it says.
If indeed she purchased the ring as oppose to carrying cash on her trip, I am confident that salesperson would remember selling such ring to a young lady and probably have it on surveillance as well.

If she received the ring as payment from someone, it is possible that she went with those person/s to have it sized since she was actually 'wearing' it upon her arrest. Most rings are bigger and need downsizing, rather than sizing up to fit her little finger.

If the ring belonged to grandma, could grandma not verify that easily?

If grandpa 'lost' the ring, I am sure he knows more about the whole hinky story.

So many questions.

Jewelry does not automatically come with any kind of an appraisal card. High end jewelry will often come with a receipt that states what the stone is and it's size, as well as (if applicable) diamond details--including quality, color, size and so on. It depends on the policy of the store, as well (I would guess) local laws if they apply.

If EJ wanted an actual appraisal, she probably would have had to pay for that, herself. (Unless she was given one as "proof" of the value by any alleged adoptive kidnappers.)

Now, about remembering, yes, I agree that a sales person would remember selling an expensive item. Sometimes folks who love and sell jewels will remember specific details about a particular stone better than they remember lots of details about the purchaser.

Another point--these aren't generally happy days at jewelry stores. Many are just getting by. They don't usually have $20,000 rings flying out multiple times a day. That's a good thing, if this turns out to be a new ring. Better chance of a sales clerk identifying it, and then looking back to see who bought it.

I agree we need to know more about grandma and grandpa.

DaneBramage
02-19-2010, 01:42 PM
If the ring is recent, the diamond will have a microscopic registration tag laser etched into it. I don't know what year they started laser etching diamonds, but I know they have been doing that for at least 10 years.

PS the laser etch method was patented in 1984...

Gin
02-19-2010, 01:46 PM
If the ring is recent, the diamond will have a microscopic registration tag laser etched into it. I don't know what year they started laser etching diamonds, but I know they have been doing that for at least 10 years.

It would be great if it did, but please know all diamonds don't come with a laser inscription. I have one that has one, and one that doesn't. Both were purchased in the last 4 years.

fay
02-19-2010, 01:50 PM
Could she have come to Miami to pick the ring up somewhere? I always wondered why she went to So. Fl. Did anyone like the babysitter notice it? A ring that size is hard not to notice. There are tons of high end jewelers in Miami and here. Believe it or not, because I'm so close to Palm Beach, it is not uncommon to see 30k or better pieces of jewelry on people.

NewMommy09
02-19-2010, 01:51 PM
I've found numerous old posts scattered around Gabe's sub-forum discussing the ring, but so far it's only speculation. So far, I haven't found any posts suggesting it was the grandmother's OR discussing a report that says it was the grandmother's.
I'll keep looking, but I haven't found a great search string yet so I'm having to weed through threads with 30+ pages looking for the four letter word - ring. UGH. Needle in a haystack.

nums24
02-19-2010, 01:55 PM
There was a link to a video posted, I think AZ something, Logan did say it was worth about $20,000. Sorry if I am repeating something I have already posted. Look at the video and read the article by Yami under it.

Maybe this will help:

http://www.kpho.com/news/22597349/detail.html

Snipped: McQueary has already traveled to San Antonio to search for clues that his son is still alive.

He says he discovered several reasons to believe Johnson went to Texas to sell Gabriel, not kill him.

"It's looking like Elizabeth handed him off to somebody, and I don't think Elizabeth did what she said. I think she just said that to hurt me," said McQueary.

McQueary pointed to new evidence that Johnson was arrested with a ruby and diamond ring worth approximately $20,000 in her pocket. He lived with her for two years, but he had never seen it before.

"Sometimes when they give the baby away for adoption, they hand over a piece of jewelry to the mother or someone who is handing over the baby as a payment instead of money," said McQueary.

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 01:56 PM
I've been looking too. Can't find it. Does anyone have the link to the video of the Grandfather outside of the jail? I remember seeing an interview outside of the jail and thought he might of mentioned the ring then.

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 01:59 PM
Could she have come to Miami to pick the ring up somewhere? I always wondered why she went to So. Fl. Did anyone like the babysitter notice it? A ring that size is hard not to notice. There are tons of high end jewelers in Miami and here. Believe it or not, because I'm so close to Palm Beach, it is not uncommon to see 30k or better pieces of jewelry on people.

Good point! That would explain the connection to Miami but would she give up Gabriel first without payment?

Boo Scout
02-19-2010, 02:02 PM
I've found numerous old posts scattered around Gabe's sub-forum discussing the ring, but so far it's only speculation. So far, I haven't found any posts suggesting it was the grandmother's OR discussing a report that says it was the grandmother's.
I'll keep looking, but I haven't found a great search string yet so I'm having to weed through threads with 30+ pages looking for the four letter word - ring. UGH. Needle in a haystack.

I did something similar, and I agree that I can't find anything suggesting it was the Grandmother's.

I found this one which floats the idea that it could have been her mothers:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ-Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, missing since 12-26-09 thread #13

That was part of general discussion about origins of the ring.

Off the GM line, but interesting:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ-Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, MSG 26 Dec 09 thread #15

TXHope suggesting maybe it was a form of payment!!!

Anyway, nothing suggesting it was the Grandmothers, and no sources about the GF saying that anywhere.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 02:14 PM
I've been looking too. Can't find it. Does anyone have the link to the video of the Grandfather outside of the jail? I remember seeing an interview outside of the jail and thought he might of mentioned the ring then.

Yesterday I linked the article on the father and brother being denied the visit when they got to the jail. Is that the one you mean?

ETA: I'll see if I can find a few more grampa interviews to watch in that time frame. It should be on or after Jan 14 when she called him and asked him to pick up the ring and the $300.

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 03:06 PM
Yesterday I linked the article on the father and brother being denied the visit when they got to the jail. Is that the one you mean?

ETA: I'll see if I can find a few more grampa interviews to watch in that time frame. It should be on or after Jan 14 when she called him and asked him to pick up the ring and the $300.

It was the 2nd visit when he was able to talk to her, without the brother.

artsy1
02-19-2010, 03:20 PM
If the ring is recent, the diamond will have a microscopic registration tag laser etched into it. I don't know what year they started laser etching diamonds, but I know they have been doing that for at least 10 years.

PS the laser etch method was patented in 1984...

I know the documentaries I have seen about "blood diamonds" have talked about putting identification markings on larger stones so that there is record that they have been "legally" imported.

As for the ring being ruby and diamond, and ruby being EJ's birthstone, IMHO, it seems plausable to tie it to TPS from the standpoint that she probably knew when EJ's birthday was, and making the ring so personal, that she would still, in a way, have control over EJ, even if EJ had disappeared. And, based on the previous postings in another thread, that JS was selling stuff in TN on craigslist in late November, my personal opinion since I read the posts that someone else had linked is that the Ss had been trying to raise some fast cash. (Perhaps to buy a ring before EJ left so they could get it to whoever would meet up with EJ in SA?)

Just my two cents.... :twocents:

artsy1
02-19-2010, 03:22 PM
Oh, and if the ring just happened to be the one that sold at Christie's that someone had linked to, since that ring was created by Tiffanys, there should definitely be records on those diamonds....

not_my_kids
02-19-2010, 03:36 PM
Given the circumstances of this case so far, it would be easy to get a judge to sign a warrant to confiscate the ring.

Yes, now. But at the time? Even though Gabe was missing and threats were made, they would have had to tell the judge that EJ had hidden and tried to give away Gabe before. That may have swayed a judge not to do anything yet...
Or maybe they just got an ineffective judge that didn't want to be bothered with the case.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 03:43 PM
It was the 2nd visit when he was able to talk to her, without the brother.

Jan 18 visit. Video of interview as he leaves jail. No mention of ring.

http://www.kpho.com/video/22268993/index.html

danisisa
02-19-2010, 03:48 PM
How do we know the ring was a female ring.

I found a ruby and diamond ring at this pawnshop in AZ that is a men's ring.

http://www.momoneypawn.com/

Check the ring section.....EJ would not keep the ring, so it would not matter if it was a man or woman's ring.

Didn't someone say it was in her pocket?

not_my_kids
02-19-2010, 03:50 PM
Okay, I am confused, the majority of articles, even back at the beginning say it was in her pocket. Now, I keep seeing people saying she was wearing it.

Clarification? Anyone?

Gin
02-19-2010, 03:53 PM
How do we know the ring was a female ring.

I found a ruby and diamond ring at this pawnshop in AZ that is a men's ring.

http://www.momoneypawn.com/

Check the ring section.....EJ would not keep the ring, so it would not matter if it was a man or woman's ring.

Didn't someone say it was in her pocket?

Certainly possible. But, if it was a bribe from the alleged kidnappers, they probably would have given her a woman's ring. She seems to be all about things (and not humans.) Whether she was going to attempt to cash it in or not, she'd probably prefer something beautiful to her eyes.
She also seems to think she's the smartest fish in the tank. Maybe she thought she'd fool the police if she "hid" her most precious possession ring in her pocket. Sheer brilliance! (Not.)

Boo Scout
02-19-2010, 03:55 PM
Okay, I am confused, the majority of articles, even back at the beginning say it was in her pocket. Now, I keep seeing people saying she was wearing it.

Clarification? Anyone?

I have seen both. In articles that talk about her Grandfather's call with her on Saturday, Jan. 16, I've usually seen that he says (paraphrasing) EJ asked him to pick up $300 she had on her and an expensive ring she was wearing.

I think that's where the wearing comes from.

Otherwise I think that the latest news mentions it being in her pocket when she was arrested.

I can certainly find links but I do believe we've seen both.

IMO, if EJ believe that ring was worth $20K, she'd keep it in her pocket rather than wear it on her travels.

not_my_kids
02-19-2010, 03:55 PM
Certainly possible. But, if it was a bribe from the alleged kidnappers, they probably would have given her a woman's ring. She seems to be all about things (and not humans.) Whether she was going to attempt to cash it in or not, she'd probably prefer something beautiful to her eyes.
She also seems to think she's the smartest fish in the tank. Maybe she thought she'd fool the police if she "hid" her most precious possession ring in her pocket. Sheer brilliance! (Not.)

I hate to point out the obvious...but they can't find the ring...(maybe). So it may have worked to a point.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Very brief interview of grampa jan 18 but not at the jail. No mention of ring.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/fears-of-baby-gabriel's-death-mount-1-18-2010

Boo Scout
02-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Jan 18 visit. Video of interview as he leaves jail. No mention of ring.

http://www.kpho.com/video/22268993/index.html

Do we know if the Grandfather has had any visits to EJ since this video? I only remember the reports on this one, but I have not looked thoroughly.

If he has not, is he alleged to have picked up the cash and the ring at this visit?

When he walks out of the jail in this video, he is holding some papers in his hands. I've never visited someone in jail, so I don't know if you get papers of some kind just for visiting, but those papers he's holding could be a copy of a property receipt he signed.

If he picked up only cash and a ring, those would be small enough to just put in the pocket of his pants to carry.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 04:02 PM
Video includes clips of interview with Grampa Jan 18. No mention of ring.

http://www.kens5.com/news/Pictures-show-Baby-Gabriel-inside-San-Antonio-hotel-82008242.html

artsy1
02-19-2010, 04:03 PM
Personally, I think LE knows exactly where the ring is, and doesn't want the public to know. They've been keeping so much close to vest as long as possible, that I think this is an issue they'd rather just leave us scratching our heads on.

IMHO, I don't think that EJ would have gotten rid of the ring, even if it was very valuable. Since she was so adamant about wanting to hurt LM, I think she would have kept it just to look at it as a memento about how much she hurt him.

NewMommy09
02-19-2010, 04:19 PM
Do we know if the Grandfather has had any visits to EJ since this video? I only remember the reports on this one, but I have not looked thoroughly.

If he has not, is he alleged to have picked up the cash and the ring at this visit?

When he walks out of the jail in this video, he is holding some papers in his hands. I've never visited someone in jail, so I don't know if you get papers of some kind just for visiting, but those papers he's holding could be a copy of a property receipt he signed.
If he picked up only cash and a ring, those would be small enough to just put in the pocket of his pants to carry.


BBM. I've never actually visited someone in jail either, but I HAVE put money on someone's books before. And you do get a receipt for that. That may have been what GF was holding in the video. JMO

NewMommy09
02-19-2010, 04:23 PM
Well, I give up. I scoured 2 full threads post by post. I then did a search for the word "ring" in threads 11 through 18, as well as many different search strings on Gabriel's entire sub-forum, and I came up with NOTHING about the ring being from EJ's GM.
At this point, I am choosing to ignore that info. In all reality, I don't believe it was her GM's anyway. Logan has said that he never saw the ring in the two years he lived with her. While a ring of that value would probably not be worn often, I'm sure she may have worn it for special occasions at least. After all, she was "really into fashion".

BeanE
02-19-2010, 04:25 PM
Do we know if the Grandfather has had any visits to EJ since this video? I only remember the reports on this one, but I have not looked thoroughly.

If he has not, is he alleged to have picked up the cash and the ring at this visit?

When he walks out of the jail in this video, he is holding some papers in his hands. I've never visited someone in jail, so I don't know if you get papers of some kind just for visiting, but those papers he's holding could be a copy of a property receipt he signed.

If he picked up only cash and a ring, those would be small enough to just put in the pocket of his pants to carry.

I've now watched every video and read every article in the media thread for Jan 18 and Jan 19, and a few for Jan 20, and I've found nothing that says he picked up the ring, and nothing about the ring being from the grandmother.

redfish
02-19-2010, 04:33 PM
My thoughts on the ring are that LE has the ring. Ej asked GF to pick it up. This pointed out its existance to them... they looked at it again and became suspicious. They kept it close to the vest until now.... there is a purpose for exposing this. Maybe a nudge to the public for tips... maybe they KNOW where the ring came from? But need witnesses?

TXHOPE
02-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Well, I give up. I scoured 2 full threads post by post. I then did a search for the word "ring" in threads 11 through 18, as well as many different search strings on Gabriel's entire sub-forum, and I came up with NOTHING about the ring being from EJ's GM.
At this point, I am choosing to ignore that info. In all reality, I don't believe it was her GM's anyway. Logan has said that he never saw the ring in the two years he lived with her. While a ring of that value would probably not be worn often, I'm sure she may have worn it for special occasions at least. After all, she was "really into fashion".

I concur! I give up too on finding previous statements about the ring. My head hurts and I agree it doesn't really matter if someone said it was the grandmas ring. What are the odds of her grandma owning a 20-30k ring anyway? I was really just hoping to hear an explanation from the grandfather about the ring. I also can't watch one more video of her grandfather! He drives me crazy-"that baby"..."Baby Gabriel"-as in a headline....that's his grandbaby!!! He shows no emotion what so ever for Gabriel. Sorry..rant. One too many videos-no results..

BeanE
02-19-2010, 04:46 PM
This is interesting. Listen to Michael Board. Over and over he's asking where Eliz got the money for shopping etc when she got to Miami Beach.

Even more interesting, he says he talked to a commander on the investigation, and the commander asked where Eliz got the money.

But... NO mention of the ring.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/01/11/ng.missing.baby.cnn

fay
02-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Good point! That would explain the connection to Miami but would she give up Gabriel first without payment?Yes, I think she would because they both have something to go to the police with. So if the alleged adoptive couple or single person double crossed her, she would have nothing to lose to turn them in.

BeanE
02-19-2010, 06:02 PM
Yes, I think she would because they both have something to go to the police with. So if the alleged adoptive couple or single person double crossed her, she would have nothing to lose to turn them in.

Except her freedom, reputation, criminal record, etc etc etc. You can't turn someone in under those circumstances without incriminating yourself, and the other person knows it.

fay
02-19-2010, 08:45 PM
Except her freedom, reputation, criminal record, etc etc etc. You can't turn someone in under those circumstances without incriminating yourself, and the other person knows it.
True. But what if she could have blown the whole illegal adoption business wide open by telling she didn't receive her ring, I think that is a great motivation to pay up. I don't think EJ cares about much of anything.

kissdegirl
02-19-2010, 11:00 PM
This was an earlier video, but watching TS twiddle her expensive wedding band grabbed my attn.....again, I grasp at straws too, and this is the only moment I've even considered TS may have been the owner of that ruby ring.

http://www.kpho.com/video/22214934/index.html
at 2:52 into the clip

OneLove
02-20-2010, 10:17 AM
This was an earlier video, but watching TS twiddle her expensive wedding band grabbed my attn.....again, I grasp at straws too, and this is the only moment I've even considered TS may have been the owner of that ruby ring.

http://www.kpho.com/video/22214934/index.html
at 2:52 into the clip

When TS and JS took their polygraph, do you think they were asked if they had owned the ring or knew anything about the ring?

kissdegirl
02-20-2010, 02:53 PM
When TS and JS took their polygraph, do you think they were asked if they had owned the ring or knew anything about the ring?

Oh I wish we could get a copy of those questions....though, I have a feeling even the basic questions were inconclusive...seeing as how they don't seem to know how long they've been together and such. :crazy:

TXHOPE
02-20-2010, 07:40 PM
I do not see how its possible that LE gave the 20-30k ring to the grandfather after appraising the value. I do think EJ could of had more that just the one ring. If she asked her grandfather to come pick up the ring and the $300, he could of picked up a casual ring and the $300 this explaining why he doesn't know anything about the diamond/ruby ring. LE would still have the diamond/ruby ring in evidence if this is the case. I believe I read Elizabeth told her grandfather it was an expensive ring. EJ could of not known that they had her 20-30k ring entered in as evidence.

~PrinceSSa~
02-20-2010, 10:39 PM
This was an earlier video, but watching TS twiddle her expensive wedding band grabbed my attn.....again, I grasp at straws too, and this is the only moment I've even considered TS may have been the owner of that ruby ring.

http://www.kpho.com/video/22214934/index.html
at 2:52 into the clip

And strangely enough in her last and only recent photo posted on febr 14/2010 she is not wearing the ring.......you'd think that especially on their 10-year anniversary she'd wear it <?>

I can link however the photo has H in it and is taken on the outside deck of their new house.

WholeLottaRosie
02-21-2010, 03:10 AM
He had never seen the 3 cell phones in the trailer either, but again, that's a bit different. Logan's family has known Eliz since junior high school. I know if I had a $20k ruby/diamond ring, I'd show it to *everybody*.


You know, I wouldn't. And haven't. Reading this thread made me realize I have four fairly valuable family rings and some other pieces my husband of 15 years has never seen. I don't wear them, they are in boxes in a jewelry box in a safe, but, I know he has never been in that. Weird. I think I will show them to him tomorrow. The only people that would know I have them are my mother.

Since someone mentioned she had it in her pocket when arrested, maybe she never wore it either.

ETA - I also realized in reading this thread this jewelry is not on our homeowners, so thanks you all!

~PrinceSSa~
02-21-2010, 10:05 PM
In this short video they talk about the grandfather being asked to pick up $300 and an expensive ring.
http://www.kpho.com/video/22258496/index.html
starting at 0:42 into the video although I don't hear grandpa himself mentioning the ring.

A ruby/and/or diamond ring represents the birthstone for JULY.
http://www.sndgems.com/birthstones.htm
JULY 24 is also Elizabeth's birthday.
Coincidence?

TXangel
02-22-2010, 02:53 AM
I've tried digging through this thread for links but this laptop is crazy and I may have missed it- was the first time the ring was mentioned was on the FB page? And that was someone saying it was reported on the local news?

Has LE ever mentioned the ring at all except to say that the GF supposedly picked it up? Has LE ever been interviewed/on video talking about it? I mean, I'm assuming they were the ones who said it was worth 20,000 and that's where the reporters got that from, but being that LE has been REALLY closed mouthed about the whole ring issue, I kind of wonder. If they has said 2,000 and the reporter got it wrong, I wonder if they would have bothered to correct them?

BeanE
02-22-2010, 07:04 AM
I've tried digging through this thread for links but this laptop is crazy and I may have missed it- was the first time the ring was mentioned was on the FB page? And that was someone saying it was reported on the local news?

Has LE ever mentioned the ring at all except to say that the GF supposedly picked it up? Has LE ever been interviewed/on video talking about it? I mean, I'm assuming they were the ones who said it was worth 20,000 and that's where the reporters got that from, but being that LE has been REALLY closed mouthed about the whole ring issue, I kind of wonder. If they has said 2,000 and the reporter got it wrong, I wonder if they would have bothered to correct them?

The first time I saw the ring mentioned was grampa saying Eliz wanted him to pick it up along with the $300. I want to say it was Jan 14, but check me on that in the case calendar. It's a Saturday phone call between Eliz and grampa around that date if it's not the 14th. Not sure which FB you're referring to?

LE has never mentioned the ring directly. We have the reporter saying LE gave it back to grampa. It's not clear if LE told the reporter that directly, or if Logan told the reporter that LE said that.

We have a direct quote from Logan saying Tempe PD appraised it at $20 - $30k. It's in a video and I transcribed it and posted it in this thread. If you advanced search for keyword appraised and my name as user name it should pop up.

I found two comments on NG blog from someone asking about the ring, comments dated Feb 11 and Feb 12 - a few days before the recent spate of news articles.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/09/cops-searching-landfill-is-baby-gabriel-buried-in-trash/#comments

TXangel
02-22-2010, 02:45 PM
Thanks, BeanE. That's what I was trying to check- if LE had ever directly mentioned the ring publicly (where we could see it, anyway) and if there was any official appraisal on record. I'm not saying Logan made it up- I'm sure he didn't- but it's still not on record anywhere officially.

The FB I mentioned was a FaceBook post. I'm sorry- I'm still getting used to all these initials. I sometimes have to stop for a second to remember who everyone is talking about, lol. That's why you'll notice a lot of the time unless we're told not to use the peron's actual name, I will.

NewMommy09
02-22-2010, 02:55 PM
I found two comments on NG blog from someone asking about the ring, comments dated Feb 11 and Feb 12 - a few days before the recent spate of news articles.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/09/cops-searching-landfill-is-baby-gabriel-buried-in-trash/#comments
snipped for space.
Wow, I haven't read most of these comments until now.
There are a couple of comments about possible sightings on here.
Thanks for posting this BeanE.

BeanE
02-22-2010, 03:56 PM
Thanks, BeanE. That's what I was trying to check- if LE had ever directly mentioned the ring publicly (where we could see it, anyway) and if there was any official appraisal on record. I'm not saying Logan made it up- I'm sure he didn't- but it's still not on record anywhere officially.

The FB I mentioned was a FaceBook post. I'm sorry- I'm still getting used to all these initials. I sometimes have to stop for a second to remember who everyone is talking about, lol. That's why you'll notice a lot of the time unless we're told not to use the peron's actual name, I will.

Oh no. I don't think Logan made it up either. I really would like to know more about that appraisal, if it was a full appraisal from a jeweler, and also at what point was the appraisal done.

And of course my number one question, did Tempe indeed rule it out as evidence and give it back to grampa? That's my $20-30k question ;-)

febedallas
02-22-2010, 10:56 PM
I agree that jewelry of that value would most likely be insured or appraised. Can anyone tell me how LE might reach out to insurance companies or jewelers with this information? It seems like it would be a huge undertaking, since they do not know an area to concentrate on. Is it possible a ring like that would have some unique identifying markers? I'm not that familiar with $20,000 jewelry pieces!

I work for a very large insurance company that writes personal articles policies. If the personal that owned the ring filed a claim for the ring, as if it were lost or stolen, then that information could be more easily accessed.

However, it would make more sense, and be harder to trace, if the ring was not insured at the time, or of course, never insured. However, greed being what it is, it would not be unthinkable that the owner might have filed a claim for it.

If there is a posted picture of the ring, an insurance person, like myself, might recognize it. I once recognized a ring on a woman in an elevator and I honestly did not remember her face, but I told her the whole story of her ring and she could not believe it. (It was a very large emerald). I would say that most policies I've written, if the piece was unusual or very expensive, I would definitely remember it.

It sounds very logical to receive a ring instead of payment, but ... you cannot get $20k at a pawn shop for a $20k ring. No way.

Boo Scout
02-23-2010, 08:59 AM
I work for a very large insurance company that writes personal articles policies. If the personal that owned the ring filed a claim for the ring, as if it were lost or stolen, then that information could be more easily accessed.

However, it would make more sense, and be harder to trace, if the ring was not insured at the time, or of course, never insured. However, greed being what it is, it would not be unthinkable that the owner might have filed a claim for it.

If there is a posted picture of the ring, an insurance person, like myself, might recognize it. I once recognized a ring on a woman in an elevator and I honestly did not remember her face, but I told her the whole story of her ring and she could not believe it. (It was a very large emerald). I would say that most policies I've written, if the piece was unusual or very expensive, I would definitely remember it.

It sounds very logical to receive a ring instead of payment, but ... you cannot get $20k at a pawn shop for a $20k ring. No way.

Thanks for this information. Would there be any efficient way for LE to circulate the ring information among big insurance companies, or would it be a needle in a haystack?

Also, generally, if EJ were given a ring and either witnessed or had a documented appraisal placing it's worth at $20K, would she be savvy enough to know that she couldn't sell it for that?

Even if she knew that she couldn't get $20K for the ring, to me, $7500 would represent a lot of money to a girl with no job whose on the run. It would probably be enough for her to get by while she figured her next move out.

TXHOPE
02-23-2010, 11:24 AM
“The information is coming in much slower, and the indicators that were once there are getting less and less to the point of becoming nonexistent,” Tempe police Sgt. Steve Carbajal told the Associated Press. “At this point, we're looking seriously into the possibility that (Elizabeth Johnson) killed Gabriel like she said she did.”

The comment above doesn't sound like Tempe LE has 20-30k ring in their possession that supports a form of payment for Gabriel. In fact all of Sgt.Carbajal's comments the last week of January before S.A. LE took over have the same tone...not good. Is it possible that they really didn't know about the value of ring at this time or could it be that the ring was dismissed as evidence by then? When EJ asked her grandfather to pick the "expensive" ring up could that be the first time LE considered the ring may have value to it and ordered an appraisal at that point? That doesn't make sense. Even here at WS as soon as we heard ring, we thought form of payment. A statement from LE confirming the existence, value and location of this ring would be great...

BeanE
02-23-2010, 12:28 PM
“The information is coming in much slower, and the indicators that were once there are getting less and less to the point of becoming nonexistent,” Tempe police Sgt. Steve Carbajal told the Associated Press. “At this point, we're looking seriously into the possibility that (Elizabeth Johnson) killed Gabriel like she said she did.”

The comment above doesn't sound like Tempe LE has 20-30k ring in their possession that supports a form of payment for Gabriel. In fact all of Sgt.Carbajal's comments the last week of January before S.A. LE took over have the same tone...not good. Is it possible that they really didn't know about the value of ring at this time or could it be that the ring was dismissed as evidence by then? When EJ asked her grandfather to pick the "expensive" ring up could that be the first time LE considered the ring may have value to it and ordered an appraisal at that point? That doesn't make sense. Even here at WS as soon as we heard ring, we thought form of payment. A statement from LE confirming the existence, value and location of this ring would be great...

Oh wow, Txhope. You gave me an idea. What if we added some of the significant LE quotes from the LE Statements thread to the case calendar to see how things line up? Could point up some interesting things. :-)

NewMommy09
02-23-2010, 12:49 PM
Oh wow, Txhope. You gave me an idea. What if we added some of the significant LE quotes from the LE Statements thread to the case calendar to see how things line up? Could point up some interesting things. :-)

Great idea!!!
Sort of O/T, I'm still very interested in the information that LE asked EJ's GM about when he last washed the car and if he waxed it. There isn't much information on that, so I hesitate to start a new thread, but I'd like to see people's takes on that. Anyone think it's thread worthy?

BeanE
02-23-2010, 01:38 PM
Great idea!!!
Sort of O/T, I'm still very interested in the information that LE asked EJ's GM about when he last washed the car and if he waxed it. There isn't much information on that, so I hesitate to start a new thread, but I'd like to see people's takes on that. Anyone think it's thread worthy?

You could go ahead and make a thread for it if you'd like. We don't have much info, but we might be able to find other cases that would give us some ideas on what they could be looking for. I'm very curious about it too.

TXangel
02-23-2010, 02:04 PM
“The information is coming in much slower, and the indicators that were once there are getting less and less to the point of becoming nonexistent,” Tempe police Sgt. Steve Carbajal told the Associated Press. “At this point, we're looking seriously into the possibility that (Elizabeth Johnson) killed Gabriel like she said she did.”

The comment above doesn't sound like Tempe LE has 20-30k ring in their possession that supports a form of payment for Gabriel. In fact all of Sgt.Carbajal's comments the last week of January before S.A. LE took over have the same tone...not good. Is it possible that they really didn't know about the value of ring at this time or could it be that the ring was dismissed as evidence by then? When EJ asked her grandfather to pick the "expensive" ring up could that be the first time LE considered the ring may have value to it and ordered an appraisal at that point? That doesn't make sense. Even here at WS as soon as we heard ring, we thought form of payment. A statement from LE confirming the existence, value and location of this ring would be great...

Your first line about the ring was kind of what I was thinking. It made me think that either they a) reporters misunderstood the value in the first place b) LE has it and is trying to downplay the angle for reasons of their own c) they have it/had it and didn't think it was a likely form of payment or d) they don't have it at all. But in all of those scenarios, only B really has it as them ever having it and it having been at the value previously stated.

But the things I've heard about Elizabeth's call to her grandfather say that she was FRANTIC for him to pick up her things. I wonder if she was afraid they might find out the value of said ring or even where it came from? But it could just be that some jails are notorious for losing your things. Back in my younger years, I heard stories of friends going to jail for minor things, and a few of them got their things back and found they were missing a shoelace or an earring. So her worry could just be a reaction to that, too- I don't know, it's just something that occured to me.

TXHOPE
02-23-2010, 02:27 PM
I think IF she was frantic it was because if confirmed, the ring is the biggest piece of evidence to link EJ to selling Gabriel. She wanted the ring picked up before LE noticed the value. Many women that are arrested probably have at least 1 ring on at the time so I guess it's possible it was missed. But if (and that's a big IF), it was missed I think once EJ made the call to Grandpa asking him to pick up the ring the red flags went up to LE. Has it been confirmed that Grandpa did in fact pick up the ring? I know he was going to but could he of went to pick up the ring and the $300 and LE just hand him the envelope without the ring? This would explain why he doesn't know where it is or like I mentioned before, she could of had more than one ring. I looked for pictures of EJ to see if she wore rings in the past and I only found 2 pics of her hands and both times she wasn't wearing any rings.

BeanE
02-23-2010, 02:36 PM
But the things I've heard about Elizabeth's call to her grandfather say that she was FRANTIC for him to pick up her things.

I think she was frantic because if confirmed, the ring is the biggest piece of evidence to link EJ to selling Gabriel.

Hi, Txangel and Txhope. I've never seen anything indicating that Elizabeth was frantic in regards to the rings or other items she wanted her grandfather to pick up.

Could you please provide a link to your info source?

Thanks!
BeanE

Boo Scout
02-23-2010, 02:44 PM
I think she was frantic because if confirmed, the ring is the biggest piece of evidence to link EJ to selling Gabriel. She wanted the ring picked up before LE noticed the value. Many women that are arrested probably have at least 1 ring on at the time so I guess it's possible it was missed. But if (and that's a big IF), it was missed I think once EJ made the call to Grandpa asking him to pick up the ring the red flags went up to LE. Has it been confirmed that Grandpa did in fact pick up the ring? I know he was going to but could he of went to pick up the ring and the $300 and LE just hand him the envelope without the ring? This would explain why he doesn't know where it is or like I mentioned before, she could of had more than one ring. I looked for pictures of EJ to see if she wore rings in the past and I only found 2 pics of her hands and both times she wasn't wearing any rings.

IMO if EJ wanted her grandfather to pick up the cash and the ring that badly, there was something more to the ring than it just being a simple piece of jewelry. That leads me to 3 possibilities: it had a lot of sentimental value, or it was monetarily valuable, at least in EJ's eyes, or it could incriminate her somehow (the last 2 certainly can go together).

If it was of sentimental value, I would think EJ would wear it regularly, and then it would stand to reason that people in her life, e.g. Logan, would have seen it too, and I would think would know its origin. From published information on the ring, Logan has said that he had never seen it.

I tend to think the ring probably is valuable, and has the potential to be important evidence.

Unfortunately, since the initial articles regarding the ring came out, we have not received any more information on it, so it's impossible to know who has it now, if its value has been confirmed, and what the source of the appraisal was/is. So now it's a lot of speculation and not much fact :(

TXangel
02-23-2010, 03:31 PM
Hi, Txangel and Txhope. I've never seen anything indicating that Elizabeth was frantic in regards to the rings or other items she wanted her grandfather to pick up.

Could you please provide a link to your info source?

Thanks!
BeanE

Actually, looking back I've only been able to find it mentioned here.

Even if she didn't have any sense of urgency, she might hope that she could get things out of LE custody before they found out where they came from and how much they were worth. Really, the whole ring thing sounds strange to me- I guess that's why I'm so hung up on it.

NewMommy09
02-23-2010, 03:47 PM
IMO if EJ wanted her grandfather to pick up the cash and the ring that badly, there was something more to the ring than it just being a simple piece of jewelry. That leads me to 3 possibilities: it had a lot of sentimental value, or it was monetarily valuable, at least in EJ's eyes, or it could incriminate her somehow (the last 2 certainly can go together).

If it was of sentimental value, I would think EJ would wear it regularly, and then it would stand to reason that people in her life, e.g. Logan, would have seen it too, and I would think would know its origin. From published information on the ring, Logan has said that he had never seen it.

I tend to think the ring probably is valuable, and has the potential to be important evidence.

Unfortunately, since the initial articles regarding the ring came out, we have not received any more information on it, so it's impossible to know who has it now, if its value has been confirmed, and what the source of the appraisal was/is. So now it's a lot of speculation and not much fact :(

Actually, it might even be all 3 of your possibilities. It may have sentimental value in a different sense than most would think. Maybe sentimental in the sense of her reminder of what she gave up or how bad she hurt Logan???

I think it's really important that Logan never saw the ring. They lived together for two years and knew each other since Jr. High. That ring is new, I'm convinced of it. JMO.

BeanE
02-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Recap of Links Regarding the Ring

TayJay mentions EJ selling jewelry on NG January 13, 2010

SMITH: I asked her that. She told me that when she left she had $2,000. She sold jewelry, her laptop computer, her dogs. She got $400 for rent and she got a check. I asked her if these people even -- I said, well, did the people even give you money to compensate for the trip that you had to make? And she said no.


This visit denial for Gramps and bro is Thurs Jan 14:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22242288/detail.html


Elizabeth Johnson Calls Grandfather
POSTED: 7:53 pm MST January 16, 2010
UPDATED: 10:14 am MST January 17, 2010

The two only spoke for a couple of minutes, talking about items she wanted him to pick up from jail. Johnson asked her grandfather to pick up the $300 she had when she was arrested in Florida, as well as an expensive ring she said she was wearing.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22256806/detail.html


Video with brief clip of Eliz on phone to grampa Sat Jan 16:
http://www.kpho.com/video/22258496/index.html


Monday Jan 18 visit with grandfather
http://www.kpho.com/news/22266828/detail.html

Another video same day, interview with EJ's twin brother:
http://www.kpho.com/video/22241483/index.html



Landfill Search For Baby Gabriel Begins Second Phase But More Evidence Points To Gabriel Alive
POSTED: 11:05 pm MST February 17, 2010
UPDATED: 11:26 pm MST February 17, 2010

McQueary pointed to new evidence that Elizabeth was arrested with a ruby and diamond ring in her pocket worth approximately $20,000. He lived with her for two years, but he had never seen it before.

"Sometimes when they give the baby away for adoption, they hand over a piece of jewelry to the mother or someone who is handing over the baby as a payment instead of money," said McQueary.

http://www.kpho.com/news/22597349/detail.html


More Evidence Points To Gabriel Alive
POSTED: 11:05 pm MST February 17, 2010
UPDATED: 6:59 pm MST February 18, 2010

Article: http://www.kpho.com/news/22597349/detail.html

Video: http://www.kpho.com/video/22606409/index.html


Expensive ring may prove Baby Gabriel is alive and adopted, father says
Posted on February 18, 2010 at 8:44 AM
Updated Thursday, Feb 18 at 12:36 PM

(Includes video where reporter says Tempe PD gave ring back to EJ's grandfather)

Transcribed by me from the KENs5 ring video:

Reporter: Well we've heard that Tempe Arizona investigators have handed the ring in question over to Elizabeth's grandfather, Bob Johnson.

According to Logan McQueary, Bob Johnson says he doesn't know where that ring is.

http://www.kens5.com/news/Baby-Gabriels-father-Expensive-ring-may-prove-son-is-alive-and-adopted-84694897.html


video at 1:35, transcribed by me:
Logan: The Tempe police appraised the ring and it appraised at about 20 to 30 thousand dollars.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/tammi_smith_not_guilty_021810

TXHOPE
03-06-2010, 12:30 PM
Investigators said it was Tammi Smith’s “desperate attempts” to adopt the child that hindered the investigation. Police allege that the Smiths had a plan in place to adopt Gabriel or were developing a plan to somehow pick up the child in Nashville, Tenn., and her contradictory statements to police and to the media led to her arrest.

Theory-If this was the plan then it's possible that the ring was a form of payment by the Smiths and they gave her the ring to go along with the plan and go to SA and then promised more once Gabriel was in Tenn.

YellowSubmarine
03-06-2010, 01:03 PM
I wonder if LE has done DNA analysis on the ring? See who else may have handled it?

TXHOPE
03-15-2010, 12:09 PM
I wonder if the reason EJ is no longer talking to her Grandfather is because of the ring?

Litlred
03-20-2010, 09:11 AM
On arrest booking record below - the 9/9/09 apartment incident (thanks kissdegirl for providing) note EJ had some jewelry, rust colored earrings and a ring "wht ring" "clr stones". She did not have the fancy ring at that time.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/01/27/elizabeth.johnson.police.reports.pdf

artsy1
05-02-2010, 05:17 PM
Here's a thought. Instead of the ring being payment for Gabriel, as it has appeared, what if she STOLE the ring? According to her "journal", she had intended to move to San Antonio, but then "something happened" around Dec 23 or 24 to change her mind (I don't remember ever hearing if what IT was has ever been released publicly). What if an opportunity presented itself to her to take the ring (perhaps from a store, during Christmas shopping rush?) and she did (maybe even during one of her "rages") - prompting her to want to move on before being tracked down? If so, has SA LE had any reports of a ring being stolen from a jewelry store? I don't know if LE would have put 2 and 2 together (a theft with a missing child case) and come up with EJ IF she did steal it. Just a thought....

kissdegirl
05-02-2010, 05:43 PM
Never considered it possibly stolen....interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if any detail were overlooked in the investigation in SA... IMO I don't feel anything there was handled well for the benefit of Gabriel. IMHO, MOO. Certainly seems worth asking.

kappy50
05-02-2010, 08:33 PM
Never considered it possibly stolen....interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if any detail were overlooked in the investigation in SA... IMO I don't feel anything there was handled well for the benefit of Gabriel. IMHO, MOO. Certainly seems worth asking.

I thought the ring was a mute point???

kissdegirl
05-02-2010, 09:10 PM
I thought the ring was a mute point???

Yeah probably...I just thought it was a good idea if there was anything to the ring thing.