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Snick1946
07-22-2010, 08:02 PM
I was sorry the newspaper article didn't go into greater detail about the scholarships - endowed scholarships, I believe, which means they are given annually - to students at Creighton as well as to students who attend King Science, where Thomas attended.

A retired law enforcement friend of mine told me that Omaha PD will not work with AMW because they don't want to be associated with any show that "profits" from crime.

I can agree with that sentiment.

On the other hand, if it were put to a vote, I would swallow my distaste for the vultures who profit in the hopes that national exposure might generate leads that could solve this case.

AMW does not profit from crime; they profit from solving crime. Maybe making money on solving crime seems ignoble to OPD but if that is indeed why they turned them down then I think this is tragic.
I think the scholarships are wonderful and a fine way to honor Tom's memory. I worry though that, having put up a statue and setting up scholarships people are just moving on.
I also feel deeply for Shirlee's family; the Hunters get all the sympathy and attention; it just sometimes seems to feel like class prejudice. JMO.

skywalker
07-22-2010, 08:24 PM
I have a belief that the perpetrator is from outside of the metro area, probably from out of state. AMW coverage could generate leads from people who know this murderer!

skywalker
07-22-2010, 08:47 PM
I also feel deeply for Shirlee's family; the Hunters get all the sympathy and attention; it just sometimes seems to feel like class prejudice. JMO.

If there is disparity, I'd attribute it to the fact that Thomas was a child. But you are right to point out that two innocents were equally viciously murdered.

I agree that the Hunters may be more in the public eye, but I'm guessing that
they are struggling with their grief - I know I would be - and, rather than moving on, they're trying to channel their grief in positive ways?

I can't imagine the pain these families are feeling when it appears to those of us on the outside of this investigation that nothing is being done.

YellowDog
07-23-2010, 11:59 AM
The families of the victims may feel the same way we feel about this case but could have been instructed by LE not to discuss it with anyone.

Ryuzaki
07-23-2010, 11:16 PM
Snick, YD and WM I am glad you have continued posting throughout the past few months, I have been desperately trying to find something during this time, my research has gotten me near to nowhere, I too share the same sentiment as Snick, something is terribly wrong here, this is where the prying will have to begin, if there is a cover up something will have to come undone, something will have to be exposed and we have to be ready for it.

waltzingmatilda
07-24-2010, 12:41 PM
I was looking through my media links because I am sure that one of the more recent reports which I recall members of the Sherman Family declined comment per instructions from OPD. I still haven't found it but I did find this one that I found interesting because I have not seen any 'videotaped' interviews of either family up til now. This interview was posted 3/14/08 and includes comments from Shirlee's son and daughter. Be sure to watch the video. It broke my heart.

http://www.ketv.com/family/15598028/detail.html

Ryuzaki, I'm glad you are back and applaud you for your time spent on research. There are so few facts to sleuth that it becomes difficult to glean any new info. I agree with you that something will be exposed and help solve this sooner or later. Note my siggy line! Keep the faith!

skywalker, I am so glad that you joined the discussion here and I really enjoy your posts and thought provoking input. I agree that whoever did this is from out of state because one of the few facts that we do have is the license plate on the silver SUV being peach in color with no front plate.

I actually became 'skittish' on another case here that I follow when I inadvertantly learned right on the thread that one of the posters drove a vehicle matching the description of the SUV in this case......right down to the peach license plate. (SC)
I didn't post for awhile after on that thread because around the same time the interview with Sgt. (now Lieutenant, he received a promotion) Kangar stated that OPD is focusing on computer forensics and Tom may have interacted with the killer online. The poster seems like a nice person but it kinda creeped me out. (OT my children nicknamed me Safety Suzie while growing up so I guess it is in my nature to be cautious.)

Hope you all have a nice weekend.

wm

Skully
07-24-2010, 02:28 PM
Thank you for posting the link WM. Wow, that is so sad to see those kids and know what happened in that house. I am beginning to think that LE will never find them.

waltzingmatilda
07-24-2010, 03:11 PM
Thank you for posting the link WM. Wow, that is so sad to see those kids and know what happened in that house. I am beginning to think that LE will never find them.

Bern, I agree. I do think 'they' will be found eventually, by a fluke or DNA evidence, but not through any efforts from OPD. MOO

BTW, Good reading you my friend!

wm

waltzingmatilda
07-24-2010, 04:15 PM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/armchair_detectives_true-crime.html

Wanted to share this with you all. Kudos to WS owner Tricia Griffith and our Super Mod 'Kimster' (and her ray gun) for their participation in this article. Way to go!

wm

Snick1946
07-24-2010, 06:55 PM
WM, thanks for the link to the KETV story with Shirlee's children. I had missed that and thought I had seen everything that had been on local media at that time.
Once again we are hit with the disparity of how long she'd worked for the Hunters. In the story her neighbor said 10-15 years. Reference was made to her being 'part of the family' etc. Yet someone whom some of us think had ties to the Hunter family posted on the first thread that she had only been with them a couple of years and was not close to Tom.
I can't say why this continues to bother me- but something is just hinky here. If she had not been there more than two years why would her neighbor say this? If she had been there all this time why would someone come on this board and say otherwise? Either the neighbor was misinformed or the poster who claimed to know was being less than truthful and had an agenda. If so, why go to the trouble?
I happen to believe that at least one of Shirlee's family is reading this thread from time to time. If possible can you send me a private message to clarify this? Thanks and God Bless.

Snick1946
07-25-2010, 02:09 PM
Snick, YD and WM I am glad you have continued posting throughout the past few months, I have been desperately trying to find something during this time, my research has gotten me near to nowhere, I too share the same sentiment as Snick, something is terribly wrong here, this is where the prying will have to begin, if there is a cover up something will have to come undone, something will have to be exposed and we have to be ready for it.

Ryuzaki- If you would be willing to send me a personal message, I will be happy to share a few things with you that those of us researching off the board have managed to learn. Maybe put together with what you have we can make progress. You never know..

po boy
07-25-2010, 09:30 PM
Everyone,

Check out the link below to the "Solve Thomas Hunter Murder" website for a really well done video on the Thomas Hunter sculpture. Good photos and insight.....

http://solvethomashuntermurder.tumblr.com/

skywalker
07-27-2010, 12:29 PM
"Back to school" is in the air.... Thomas would have started high school - 9th Grade - this year.

YellowDog
07-27-2010, 04:34 PM
"Back to school" is in the air.... Thomas would have started high school - 9th Grade - this year.

Tragic, isn't it? And some maniacal maniac is still on the loose out there.

Snick1946
07-27-2010, 08:37 PM
I have commented previously about the attitude of some parts of OPD toward criticism. It does seem that the case we are discussing is a hot button issue for some of our boys in blue here in Omaha. Today I made a short comment on a local TV station blog- the topic was a recent murder of two whose bodies were found apparently dumped away from the scene of the murder. I commented about some of the unsolved murders locally and made a point of mentioning the Dundee murders.
I just checked the blog and there are a half dozen replies to my comments with the usual sarcism and ridicule that I have come to expect from the Omaha Police Union which is where I think some of these comments originated. Funny- I can make the same comment minus any reference to these murders and I dont get this reaction.
Maybe it's just me and maybe I have been at this too long for my own good, but it just seems more and more as time goes by that LE is not really on the side of those of us who want this thing solved.

Snick1946
07-27-2010, 09:23 PM
"Back to school" is in the air.... Thomas would have started high school - 9th Grade - this year.

My son is three months older than Tom- he will be starting High School shortly.
This evening I got a call from him- he's out with friends and was just checking in, at first I didn't realize it was him, his voice is so deep now.
So many of us are blessed- I am sure the Hunters and the Shermans are still hurting from their loss.
At times I get to the point of wanting to just put this whole thing on a back burner. Then I remember Tom and Shirlee, two people I never knew in life but have come to care very deeply for. God bless them and their families.

skywalker
07-28-2010, 11:14 AM
My son is three months older than Tom- he will be starting High School shortly.
This evening I got a call from him- he's out with friends and was just checking in, at first I didn't realize it was him, his voice is so deep now.


I know just what you mean! It's startling! They are turning into young men right before our eyes.

How would Thomas have grown, changed? What would he be doing with his intellectual gifts? We'll never know. It makes me very sad.

skywalker
07-28-2010, 11:20 AM
At times I get to the point of wanting to just put this whole thing on a back burner. Then I remember Tom and Shirlee, two people I never knew in life but have come to care very deeply for.

Thank you for continuing to fight the good fight. Shaking the tree, ruffling feathers, rattling the cage....

you're letting OPD know that the community watches and waits for answers. Bravo!

waltzingmatilda
08-02-2010, 11:55 AM
Bumping up from page 4 in memory of Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman!

In order to keep discussion going I have a question for all of you?

If you could ask one question to each, OPD, The Hunter family, and the Sherman family what would it be.

Here's mine...

To OPD - Was DNA evidence from the perp found at the crime scene?

To Hunter family - What types of online video games did Tom play?

To Sheman family - Was Shirlee's home really burglarized before the murders or is this just rumor?

Hope you all are having a good Monday!

wm

Snick1946
08-02-2010, 07:43 PM
Bumping up from page 4 in memory of Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman!

In order to keep discussion going I have a question for all of you?

If you could ask one question to each, OPD, The Hunter family, and the Sherman family what would it be.

Here's mine...

To OPD - Was DNA evidence from the perp found at the crime scene?

To Hunter family - What types of online video games did Tom play?

To Sheman family - Was Shirlee's home really burglarized before the murders or is this just rumor?

Hope you all are having a good Monday!

wm


Mine:

To OPPD- Why don't you want AMW to do a story on this case?

To Hunter family- Why haven't you been more proactive with OPD in getting them to do the above?

To Sherman family: Did any of you ever receive any expression of condolence from the Hunters and how long did Shirlee work for the family?

I probably will think of other questions but these jump into mind immediately.

YellowDog
08-03-2010, 01:16 PM
Mine:

To OPPD- Why don't you want AMW to do a story on this case?

To Hunter family- Why haven't you been more proactive with OPD in getting them to do the above?

To Sherman family: Did any of you ever receive any expression of condolence from the Hunters and how long did Shirlee work for the family?

I probably will think of other questions but these jump into mind immediately.

Mine:

To OPPD: Have you determined which victim died first? This might give a clue as to who the killer was after.

Were the knives from the home?

Were any of Thomas's friends or teachers from school singled out for interrogation?

Was there more than one neighbor who claimed to have seen the dark skinned man in the neighborhood and entering the house? How many of them claim to have seen him leave?

To the Sherman Family: What were Shirlee's outside isocial nterests?
What time did Shirlee usually leave the Hunter home and did she always work on the same day of the week?

omaha
08-04-2010, 11:40 AM
Mine:

To OPPD: Have you determined which victim died first? This might give a clue as to who the killer was after.

Were the knives from the home?

Were any of Thomas's friends or teachers from school singled out for interrogation?

Was there more than one neighbor who claimed to have seen the dark skinned man in the neighborhood and entering the house? How many of them claim to have seen him leave?

To the Sherman Family: What were Shirlee's outside isocial nterests?
What time did Shirlee usually leave the Hunter home and did she always work on the same day of the week?

To OPD:

1. Why not go to AMW?
2. Have you had any solid leads or clues since the murder?
3. Was there any DNA left at the scene?
4. What did you find on Tom's computers?
5. Was Sherman dating anyone? Married? Divorced? Widowed?
6. What was Sherman's relationship with her family?
7. What happened with the car? Was it ever recovered, traced?
8. Were anyone or Did anyone in the neighborhood have young-adult children who served in the military or had medical training?
9. Did anyone in the neighborhood have gambling debts or criminal records?

To Hunters:

1. How long did Sherman work for you?
2. Was Sherman supposed to be there on that day?
3. Was Dr. Hunter early or late home on that day?
4. Did Thomas ever have any trouble at school?
5. How often was Thomas home alone?
6. Was Thomas' computer activity monitored by his parents?
7. Were any of Thomas' teachers or friends detached around the time of the killings? Funeral?
8. Did any of your colleagues avoid you following the murders?
9. Have any of the other boys been involved with the law?
10. Did Thomas ever ask for or try to steal money or anything of value?
11. Was anything stolen from the home? Even if its monetary value was not established? Computer equipment?

To Shermans:

1. Who did Shirlee live with?
2. Was she dating / married to anyone?
3. Did she use computers often? The internet?
4. Was she having any money problems? Was anyone in the family?
5. How many families did Shirlee clean for?
6. How did she get introduced to the Hunters?

waltzingmatilda
08-06-2010, 01:14 PM
Bumping up in memory of Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman.

wm

Snick1946
08-10-2010, 11:06 AM
One additional question for OPD:

Have you ever determined whether the knives used in the murders were taken from the kitchen in the home or brought in by the perp?

It is suggestive to me that OPD has been silent on this subject. This may be a subject deliberately left unpubicized.

YellowDog
08-10-2010, 01:48 PM
I've always felt like the knives were broght in by the killer since no mention was ever made of the victims being tied up.

omaha
08-10-2010, 02:21 PM
I've always felt like the knives were broght in by the killer since no mention was ever made of the victims being tied up.

This makes total sense to me. Also, I wonder if there was anything found at the scene like a calling card. This was mentioned before with the knives.

YellowDog
08-11-2010, 11:01 AM
This makes total sense to me. Also, I wonder if there was anything found at the scene like a calling card. This was mentioned before with the knives.

The killer left a calling card? I never saw anything about that. Do you have a link?

omaha
08-11-2010, 01:12 PM
The killer left a calling card? I never saw anything about that. Do you have a link?

That's not what I meant to say. There was discussion here on WS about the possibility of leaving knives at the scene as some sort of "calling card".

ladymemac
08-12-2010, 03:06 PM
I'm struck by how much the so-called Flint serial killer, Elias Abuelazam, who has just been arrested after randomly stabbing people in at least three states, look like the sketch of the possible Hunter-Sherman suspect.

I wonder if he can be tied to Nebraska at all. I just read that one point he worked at a hospital in Leesburg, VA, so there's a background in hospital/medical field.

I also recall that Hunter-Sherman witnesses said the suspect's SUV didn't have a front license plate. Flint serial killer witnesses also commented on how suspect's SUV lacked front plate --- Michigan doesn't require front plate. Does Nebraska?

This guy was very violent and clearly very mobile. Definitely worth OPD looking into...


file:///Users/michelle/Desktop/images.jpgfile:///Users/michelle/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.png

YellowDog
08-12-2010, 03:46 PM
I'm struck by how much the so-called Flint serial killer, Elias Abuelazam, who has just been arrested after randomly stabbing people in at least three states, look like the sketch of the possible Hunter-Sherman suspect.

I wonder if he can be tied to Nebraska at all. I just read that one point he worked at a hospital in Leesburg, VA, so there's a background in hospital/medical field.

I also recall that Hunter-Sherman witnesses said the suspect's SUV didn't have a front license plate. Flint serial killer witnesses also commented on how suspect's SUV lacked front plate --- Michigan doesn't require front plate. Does Nebraska?

This guy was very violent and clearly very mobile. Definitely worth OPD looking into...


file:///Users/michelle/Desktop/images.jpgfile:///Users/michelle/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.png


That's an interesting thought, but didn't he target black men?

ladymemac
08-12-2010, 04:08 PM
At least two of his victims were white. There's some speculation that he was targeting vulnerable people who were out walking alone, and it was just happenstance that most of the victims were african-americans. But yeah, the m.o. is certainly different, in terms of being outside, all men, etc. But something could have changed for him. I still think it's worth looking into, just because he looks so much like the sketch and the use of a knife.

Snick1946
08-12-2010, 04:25 PM
Now that I've picked my jaw up off the floor....

Within the next several hours I plan to send the image from the last poster's link along with a suggestion to the detectives working on this case and suggest they may want to contact authorities holding this POS to see if they can develop any links to our case. I have to admit I heard about this arrest and never thought of a connection however once I saw the full face photo of this guy I nearly yelled. His patterns of behavior seem to fit our perp.

Not getting any hopes up but this could be a break...

Snick1946
08-12-2010, 07:59 PM
Paste from an Israeli newspaper re Mr Abuelazam:

Abuelazam, an Israeli citizen living legally in the U.S., reportedly recently visited Israel for his sister's wedding.

One Ramle resident said Abuelazam left Israel at age 19 or 20 after finishing high school.

Another resident said Abuelazam was orphaned by his father at a young age.

The resident added that Abuelazam was allegedly involved with criminals and had a violent streak, which led his mother to send him abroad.

However, other neighbors who studied with Abuelazam in high school said he avoided violence, despite his physical build. They added, however, that Abuelazam seemed to have undergone significant changes during his recent visit to Israel.

A., a former neighbor and classmate, said Abuelazam was pleasant during the time they studied together, but that lately he would picks fights with "anyone who looked him in the eye."

He added when Abuelazam got angry, it took three people to restrain him.

"In recent years he experienced something that changed him entirely. He started using drugs, so his family sent him abroad."
Other rumors in Ramle alleged that Abuelazam engaged in relationships with older women in the U.S. who then supported him financially.

It sounds like he'd been in the US for some time, he is I think 33 or so. I have been told by someone that he has worked in the medical community but I do not know that for sure yet nor where in the US he has spent his time the past few years.

YellowDog
08-12-2010, 08:26 PM
If any of his attacks can be tied to March 13, 2008, that would eliminate him from the Omaha murders. I wonder how hard that would be to check out?

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 07:16 AM
Welcome to the thread ladymemac!

Wow! The composite and the Flint killers pic are eerily similar aren't they? The first thought that I had re: the Flint killer was.....

Who else has this guy killed? Have there been other victims and he has escalated. Someone correct me if I am wrong but don't serial killlers usually escalate in their crimes as time passes?

I just cannnot imagine that this killer just started stabbing people at random in May. I will not be surprised if we learn that there are more victims. I wish I were a better sleuth when it comes to checking criminal records because the above photo, also pictured at below link, states it is an 'undated photo by Arlington Co (VA) PD'. Does this mean he has been arrested in VA at some point?

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/08/12/spy-agencies-check-background-of-alleged-serial-knifeman.html

OT I didn't sleep well last night so while awake I prayed a special prayer for the Hunter & Sherman families and for OPD to solve this case. When I signed in this am, I came here first and gasped when I saw the pics posted by ladymemac! Let's keep the faith. Maybe this is a viable lead in solving this case and perhaps other cases too. (Like the stabbing murder of Al Kite)

All MOO.

wm

Searchfortruth
08-13-2010, 07:22 AM
From an NBC article, link below...

Police in Leesburg now want to question the suspect in regards to the fatal stabbing of a man in his Leesburg home last year, when the Abuelazam and the victim were neighbors.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Serial-Killer-Suspect-Arrested-100517384.html

Searchfortruth
08-13-2010, 07:31 AM
Welcome to the thread ladymemac!

Wow! The composite and the Flint killers pic are eerily similar aren't they? The first thought that I had re: the Flint killer was.....

Who else has this guy killed? Have there been other victims and he has escalated. Someone correct me if I am wrong but don't serial killlers usually escalate in their crimes as time passes?

I just cannnot imagine that this killer just started stabbing people at random in May. I will not be surprised if we learn that there are more victims. I wish I were a better sleuth when it comes to checking criminal records because the above photo, also pictured at below link, states it is an 'undated photo by Arlington Co (VA) PD'. Does this mean he has been arrested in VA at some point?

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/08/12/spy-agencies-check-background-of-alleged-serial-knifeman.html

OT I didn't sleep well last night so while awake I prayed a special prayer for the Hunter & Sherman families and for OPD to solve this case. When I signed in this am, I came here first and gasped when I saw the pics posted by ladymemac! Let's keep the faith. Maybe this is a viable lead in solving this case and perhaps other cases too. (Like the stabbing murder of Al Kite)

All MOO.

wmBBM. Sadly this serial killer was arrested in Arlington on Aug 5th (later that day he attacked for the second time in Leesburg, Va). Here's a part of the NBC article that covers this...

Police in Arlington, Va., said Abuelazam was arrested there during a routine traffic stop Aug. 5 at 1:15 a.m. Arlington Detective Crystal L. Nosal said police realized he was wanted on a simple assault warrant in Leesburg, about 30 miles away, but a magistrate released him on personal recognizance, meaning he was responsible for returning to court.

Genesee County, Mich., prosecutor David Leyton said the Arlington stop was for failure to obey a highway sign and police found a knife in the driver's side door and a hammer on the floor of Abuelazam's 1996 green and gold Chevrolet Blazer.

Police impounded the Blazer -- which matched a vehicle described by some survivors -- and then gave it back to Abuelazam, Leyton said.

According to court records in Loudoun County, where Leesburg is located, Abuelazam was arrested in December 2007 and charged with felony gun possession. Those charges were dropped the next year.

He was also charged with misdemeanor assault in 2008, and had a court date scheduled for next week.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Serial-Killer-Suspect-Arrested-100517384.html

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 08:11 AM
BBM. Sadly this serial killer was arrested in Arlington on Aug 5th (later that day he attacked for the second time in Leesburg, Va). Here's a part of the NBC article that covers this...

Police in Arlington, Va., said Abuelazam was arrested there during a routine traffic stop Aug. 5 at 1:15 a.m. Arlington Detective Crystal L. Nosal said police realized he was wanted on a simple assault warrant in Leesburg, about 30 miles away, but a magistrate released him on personal recognizance, meaning he was responsible for returning to court.

Genesee County, Mich., prosecutor David Leyton said the Arlington stop was for failure to obey a highway sign and police found a knife in the driver's side door and a hammer on the floor of Abuelazam's 1996 green and gold Chevrolet Blazer.

Police impounded the Blazer -- which matched a vehicle described by some survivors -- and then gave it back to Abuelazam, Leyton said.

According to court records in Loudoun County, where Leesburg is located, Abuelazam was arrested in December 2007 and charged with felony gun possession. Those charges were dropped the next year.

He was also charged with misdemeanor assault in 2008, and had a court date scheduled for next week.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Serial-Killer-Suspect-Arrested-100517384.html

Thank you Searchfortruth! I'm attaching a few other links for reference to determine a timeline because this killer sure moved around alot. He reported his Nintendo Wii game was stolen when he lived in Bradenton, Fl earlier this year. He rented the FL apt in Mar and moved to Flint in May.

It's a shame that he was arrested and released in VA, only to attack again the same day! One things for sure, his DNA is now on file! It will be interesting to see if his DNA matches that of any unsolved cases which has been collected.

Links

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Dato=20100813&Kategori=NEWS06&Lopenr=8130378&Ref=AR&template=fullarticle

http://www.freep.com/article/20100812/NEWS06/100812003/1321/Man-held-in-Flint-serial-stabbings

^^^
in above link it appears he has a peircing in his left ear. I hadn't noticed that in the composite sketch of this serial killer. I need to work on my observation skills!!!:innocent:

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 09:10 AM
This alleged maniac gets around. He was in California in 1995.

According to court records in Loudoun County, where Leesburg is located, Abuelazam was convicted of lying on a handgun permit in December 2007. Abuelazam failed to disclose a 1995 low-level felony conviction in Sunnyvale, California, Loudoun County Commonwealth's Attorney James Plowman said. He served about a month in jail.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/12/report-police-detain-man-connection-mich-serial-stabbings/

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 09:43 AM
He was in Loudon Correctional Facility in 2008. He served time for a month for the handgun conviction. If he was there in March 08 then we'll know there is no connection to Tom and Shirlee's murder. However, if he was released in Jan or Feb 08 from the California prison, he very well could have been traveling cross country. Just throwing that out there as a possiblity that he could have been passing through Omaha.

Here's a link to the information. Be sure to read all 4 pages as there are several different pics of him.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/TheLaw/serial-stabbing-suspect-elias-abuelazam-gentle-giant-alleged/story?id=11391814

I'll continue digging.

wm

colette
08-13-2010, 10:56 AM
He also was a gamer, possible online game revenge motive comes up again?

A snipet from his Florida life:

He said that in late April, Abuelazam reported to the sheriff's office that someone had stolen his Nintendo Wii gaming system around the time he moved into the apartment. He said it's unclear why Abuelazam was living in Bradenton.

Read more: Abuelazam's arrest confounds mother, ex-wife's family | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/20100813/NEWS06/8130378/1001/News/Abuelazams-arrest-confounds-mother-ex-wifes-family#ixzz0wUv97GDI

Snick1946
08-13-2010, 11:20 AM
Here's a link to a detailed news article in the Loundon Times with a blog- lots of interesting stuff:

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/UPDATE_Leesburg_stabbing_spree_--_crime_blog455/

It looks like his arrest and jailing in 2008 may have been in November. Maybe someone better able at culling these articles can find that- I posted a question asking for clarification and mentioning the Omaha crimes, did not use my actual name.

If not this article, anothe said that he was known to attack victims from behind. Sound familiar?

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 12:13 PM
Post # 289 states he was convicted in CA in Dec. 2007. I wonder if sentencing took place the same day or at a later date?

Post #290 states he served one month for the conviction. So, IMO, it would be very possible that he was released and traveling cross country in March '08.

I will try and dig up where he landed after being released from Loudon. (IIRC, I read somewhere that he worked at the med facility in VA at that time but am not certain.)

wm

Snick1946
08-13-2010, 12:41 PM
Quite awhile ago, I posted the following snip from a post by an anonymous person on the web site 'True Crime Diary':

The sketch of the olive skin man looks like someone I know. I can't fathom this olive skinned dark haired man doing some crime as bad as this. But the sketch looks like someone I know. Did the housekeeper ever take ballroom dance lessons? Did the housekeeper owe money to a ballroom dance instruction business? Did the housekeeper have any dealings with Primerica Financial Services company? Did the housekeeper owe any money to Primerica Financial Services Company? I hope the police eventually solves this case, but I don't want someone accused unless they are really guilty. The person that looks like the drawing also had access to the ballroom's silver small suv.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see if this guy was in Omaha for any time about the period of the murders and had some connection with a dance studio? Per some articles, he lived off older women- what better hunting grounds for this than a dance school? The poster alleges he drove the studio's car sometimes. I previously submitted this to OPD and of course heard nothing.

ladymemac
08-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Seems like this guy traveled around the country a lot visiting family. I can't find anyone in Nebraska with that last name, but doesn't mean he didn't have relatives there.

I'm curious about something. I'm not good with cars. Can someone chime in --- would anyone ever mix up a Chevy Blazer with a Honda CRV?

colette
08-13-2010, 01:25 PM
From Snick's link above:
Officials said he was not on a watch list. In 2007, he spent “about a month” in jail for a misdemeanor because he provided incorrect information when applying for a firearm license in Virginia. He did not put on the application that he had a felony conviction for fraud in California in 1995, according to Loudoun’s Commonwealth Attorney Jim Plowman.

So he wants to get guns in 2007, his murder sprea could have been much worse had he gotten some guns. Who knows when he started killing people.

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 01:41 PM
From Snick's link above:
Officials said he was not on a watch list. In 2007, he spent “about a month” in jail for a misdemeanor because he provided incorrect information when applying for a firearm license in Virginia. He did not put on the application that he had a felony conviction for fraud in California in 1995, according to Loudoun’s Commonwealth Attorney Jim Plowman.

So he wants to get guns in 2007, his murder sprea could have been much worse had he gotten some guns. Who knows when he started killing people.

He and wife divorced in 2007 according to articles I have read. Then he is convicted of this firearm charge in Dec of the same year for which he served one month in Loudon. Something sure set him off.

Also, according to snick's above link, this perp was employeed at Piedmont medical center til 2008. I am curious when in 2008 that his employment was terminated with Piedmont.

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-13-2010, 01:55 PM
Seems like this guy traveled around the country a lot visiting family. I can't find anyone in Nebraska with that last name, but doesn't mean he didn't have relatives there.

I'm curious about something. I'm not good with cars. Can someone chime in --- would anyone ever mix up a Chevy Blazer with a Honda CRV?

So far I have found this guy has connections in Florida, Texas, California, Michigan, Virginia. He stopped in Ohio to commit another attack while returning from Leesburg, VA (after commiting the 3 attacks there) to Flint, MI. As an aside, the Ohio victim was the only victim who described the perp as middle eastern descent.

Considering that he stopped in Ohio while en route to Mich. to satisfy his urge to attack, I don't feel it is too far fetched a theory that he may have stopped off in Omaha after being released from prison in CA and heading east.
:twocents:
As far as your question regarding SUV's, I cannot help you as I am not good with cars either.

wm

ladymemac
08-13-2010, 11:40 PM
Tom and Shirlee died of stab wounds to the neck.

Not too long ago this guy stabbed his friend in Israel in the neck (the victim lived).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/13/AR2010081303332.html

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 08:38 AM
OK I made a mistake in posting that Abuelazam was in a CA prison in 08. The prison is in Virginia. Which means he would have traveled 'west' when released in order to commit murder in Omaha. I am still searching for a release date, to no avail.

http://www.loudoun.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=1419#Correction

His job at the health facility ended in '08 also. Could be due to the month he spent in Loudon. He worked mentally challenged and violent youths according to one article I read. A coworker stated he would help in restraining patients who became violent. (I'll try and find a link to the article.)

So, we know he was convicted in Dec. 2007. He served one month in Loudon in 2008. (MOO most likely in Jan or Feb, shortly after his conviction. Possibly sentenced the same day of conviction and incarcerated immediatley) His employment is terminated at the med facility in 2008. (Was he terminated because of incarceration?)

http://criminalsearches.com/details.aspx?id=w1x00xC8&vw=criminal&1=9NN9AHhdX23FYt70X1%2bEA07Q28GOyaBjd74zNi8t9cI%3d&input=name

^^ above link to criminal offenses in Fairfax Co. VA

all Moo and all that stuff.

wm

tapu
08-14-2010, 09:34 AM
Great info, and great thinking, everyone!


I wish I could add more, but I have only this to offer in response to the distinctive SUVs question:

I had a girl friend whose brother drove a Chevy Blazer, and she would say things like, "Look out for that Blazer!" whenever an SUV make/model completely unlike that would go by on the freeway. Even if it were, say, a Hyundai Santa Fe or whatever. So, yeah, I think some people (dare I say it?--women) may do that easily.

:)

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 10:26 AM
Glad you posted tapu! I agree with you about the SUV. Abuelazam's SUV was an older model like a 1996, IIRC. I could make that mistake too!

Our super sleuth Belinda is helping me research the incarceration date (Thanks Belinda!)
And she found this.....

Nothing on the new name. All I have on the incarceration is:

Offense Date: 10/19/2007
Arrest Date: 12/17/2007
Disposition Date: 04/24/2008

Offense: False Report/Summon to Police
Sentence: 6 months with 5 months suspended

No record of actual incarceration dates. I will keep checking.

ETA: I located the court record for the above case, but it gives no further information than what I have already listed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


does anyone know what a disposition date is?

(Above is from post # 72 on this thread....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5518916&posted=1#post5518916

wm

Belinda
08-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Forgive my complete lack of a sense of direction, but where is this in relation to his other known locations? He was apparently based in Virginia at this time, so is this a reasonable distance to travel? I do believe there are probably other victims, but I'm not sure he would go that far, do one crime and then go all the way back. Further, since not from the area, how would he have selected this residence?

It said he was in healthcare at one point. Is it possible he somehow had contact with the parents of the boy and was seeking some sort of vengeance? Possibly a healthcare convention of some type? Just jotting down random thoughts.

If any of this is way off base, forgive me. I have been following the thread, but have probably forgotten a lot of the important information.

ETA: Just bothered to look up a map. This seems way off his beaten path. Still not impossible, but I find it rather improbable unless he was settling a personal score of some type.

Belinda
08-14-2010, 11:36 AM
WM - Are there any other POI's you are looking at that I could check on for you?

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 11:45 AM
Belinda, I have had the same thoughts and considerations as yourself. One theory that has been discussed is online gaming. At OPD's last presser it was stated that they were focusing on computer forensics and felt Tom may have have contact with his killer online.
Abuelazam reportedly filed a police report in Bradenton, FL that his Wii was stolen from his apt. So we know he plays video games. Some games allow players to play and converse through a headset, with peeps from all over the world, so alot could be learned about a person in this way.

Also, Abuelazam does have a history of drug abuse and also worked in the medical field. So perhaps he thought drugs or prescription pads were in the Hunter home. It could also be possible that he crossed paths with either of the Drs Hunter at a medical convention, like you suggested.

Just trying to connect the dots as to his whereabouts during this time frame in 2008 so that we can rule him in or out as a potential suspect. If disposition date was in April for the Dec 2007 conviction then he would not have been incarcerated yet in March '08.

I agree, Omaha is far away from his homebase, but he was a loner and traveler so I'm not ready to rule him out as a supect in these horrible murders.

Thank you so very much for all your help. I feel I can speak for all the posters on this thread in saying that we appreciate your expertise and generosity of your time in helping us research this guy.

above is MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 11:56 AM
WM - Are there any other POI's you are looking at that I could check on for you?

Not at this time, Belinda. This case has everyone stumped, even OPD. It's like a phantom entered the Hunter home on March 13, 2008.....stabbed Tom and Shirlee to death.....then disappeared off the face of the earth without a trace.

A traveling, stabbing stranger committed these murders, IMO.

I feel it would be a disservice to the memory of Tom and Shirlee if we didn't at least consider this possible lead.

Thank you for the kind offer. As time goes by, more info is bound to come out about this guy so maybe we'll have more to research re: his movements in the days to come.

MOO

wm

Belinda
08-14-2010, 12:00 PM
Wait a minute - am I remembering correctly that Tom had knifed someone in a game and that is considered a bad thing? That would be truly bizarre. If Abuelazam is a gamer, he seems like the type that could take something like that very personally. Could that have possibly been the trigger for all that has followed?

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 12:06 PM
We don't have evidence at this time that Tom cyber stabbed anyone while online gaming. We did learn that, in some games, being stabbed is considered to be shameful and in other cases it has resulted in real world retaliation.

But....something like this would certainly be enough to 'set off' a person who is mentally imbalanced, IMO.

All MOO.

wm

Belinda
08-14-2010, 12:12 PM
Is there any way to find out? Any serious gamers here? Is this something that is tracked as part of game stats? I find this very intriguing. I can seriously see such a diss sending Abuelazam around the bend. Very interesting. If he would stab his own friend in the face, what would he do about a kid dissing him?

waltzingmatilda
08-14-2010, 12:21 PM
Is there any way to find out? Any serious gamers here? Is this something that is tracked as part of game stats? I find this very intriguing. I can seriously see such a diss sending Abuelazam around the bend. Very interesting. If he would stab his own friend in the face, what would he do about a kid dissing him?

Our WS poster, Ryuzaki, has some knowledge regarding this and has posted on it in the past. He referred to the conversations of the players via headset as [I]'Gamespeak'[I]. Perhaps he will check in here and be able to answer our questions.

I just wish we knew which games Tom played online. It would give us a much better perspective into this subject.

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-15-2010, 06:28 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/15/serial-stabbings-started-slowly-michigan-accelerated-spread-states/

I found some quotes interesting in above link.

~~~~snipped~~~~

"I'd have had my two pitbulls with me," said Richard Booker, 49, who lives near Flint in Genesee Township. Booker — who was stabbed in his side, abdomen and forearms — was on his way to the store late July 19 when a man standing next to a green Chevy Blazer asked for help opening its hood.

"I'm beating on his hood, trying to get it open, he takes a Bowie knife and sticks it right in my kidney and liver. ... And then he grabbed me around my neck," Booker said, pulling up his shirt to reveal an 18-inch scar from his chest to his pelvic area and a smaller hole on his right side. He lost 8 pints of blood.

"He's a stone-cold killer," Booker said. "He knows what he's doing, he's trained in it. He knows where to stick you to kill you."

above BBM-------

I'll try and locate a link to a photo of a Bowie knife. Has anyone heard even a rumor of the types of knives the killer left behind at the Hunter home?

~~~~snipped~~~~

Forensic profiler Robert Keppel believes the man responsible for the 18 attacks stalked and attacked his victims simply for a thrill, and he suspects other attacks preceded the spree in Flint.

"He's got a bunch of them. You're going to be trying to track him down in his travels, and probably every place he's been he's attacked someone," said Keppel, a retired Washington state homicide detective who profiles serial killers.


Above BBM-
Umm...... this profiler must be reading WS because that's exactly what we're doing! But seriously, I am not surprised that Mr Keppel made this statement.

"He's got a bunch of them."

I bet a glass of lemonade that there were other victims prior to him escalating to the spree of terror that began in May. This guy is a hunter and enjoys the thrill of the hunt and the power he feels with slicing human flesh. It is a sick game to him. MOO.

I have been googly eyed (pun intended) from googling this guy. We know he wasn't yet incarcerated in Mar. 08 but we need to determine when his job was terminated at the medical facility and if he traveled to conventions, etc. If anybody has time to google this info, it would be helpful.

One other thing......I hope you all are having a very nice and restful Sunday afternoon.

All MOO

wm

Snick1946
08-16-2010, 11:45 AM
Last evening I sent an email to OPD Homicide division, this was not an anonymous Crime Stopper deal, I gave them my name and #. I commented that altho I was sure they were aware of the possibilities of a connection that I wanted to make doubly sure they were.
One of my fears at this point is that even if this is the guy, OPD will not persue it. There may be a feeling of wanting to just put it aside now that he is in custody and wont be getting out in this life. They wouldn't want to answer questions about why they handled this as they did. I hope I am wrong.

waltzingmatilda
08-16-2010, 02:10 PM
Last evening I sent an email to OPD Homicide division, this was not an anonymous Crime Stopper deal, I gave them my name and #. I commented that altho I was sure they were aware of the possibilities of a connection that I wanted to make doubly sure they were.
One of my fears at this point is that even if this is the guy, OPD will not persue it. There may be a feeling of wanting to just put it aside now that he is in custody and wont be getting out in this life. They wouldn't want to answer questions about why they handled this as they did. I hope I am wrong.

Kudos to you, Snick! Hopefully they will check it out. I also hope that OPD would enjoy the success of solving this case and will check out all leads.

The thing about Abuelazam that is worrisome to me is that we haven't yet pinpointed his whereabouts on Mar 13, 2008. Therefore, I can't rule him out as a possible suspect until I can place him somewhere far away from Omaha on that date. The facts that he was known to travel around, was an online gamer and worked in the medical field creeps me out!

MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-17-2010, 08:34 AM
Images of Bowie Knives.

http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS289US290&q=bowie+knife&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=1oBqTLioOMn88AbB9NXeBw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CFsQsAQwAw&biw=1007&bih=479

I had no idea there are so many different 'styles'. But then I am only familiar with culinary knives......

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-20-2010, 02:39 PM
Bumping up from page three.

There has been no news in this case lately. It is discouraging that there are no updates....even if OPD just stated that the investigation is still active.....that would be something.....

Anyway, I think of Tom and Shirlee each day and I pray for their families. This is the only way that I feel I can help, just keeping the thread bumped up so that they are not forgotten.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
08-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Bumping up from page three.

There has been no news in this case lately. It is discouraging that there are no updates....even if OPD just stated that the investigation is still active.....that would be something.....

Anyway, I think of Tom and Shirlee each day and I pray for their families. This is the only way that I feel I can help, just keeping the thread bumped up so that they are not forgotten.

MOO

wm

Without revealing my source I think I can assure you- OPD still is working on this case.
There is not a day that goes by but that I think of Thomas and Shirlee and their families. I am very much aware that this crime may never be solved. Still, not to keep plugging away at this, no matter how little we may be accomplishing, would be unthinkable.
Has anyone else felt it strange that news about the Michigan serial killer has suddenly dropped off the media?

waltzingmatilda
08-21-2010, 10:00 AM
Without revealing my source I think I can assure you- OPD still is working on this case.
There is not a day that goes by but that I think of Thomas and Shirlee and their families. I am very much aware that this crime may never be solved. Still, not to keep plugging away at this, no matter how little we may be accomplishing, would be unthinkable.
Has anyone else felt it strange that news about the Michigan serial killer has suddenly dropped off the media?

Snick, Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us and I understand your need to protect your source. That is great news!

I think we will be hearing more about the Flint stabber next week. IIRC, it was expected to take two weeks to extradite him to Mich., he is currently being held in Atlanta. I think he was arrested on a Thursday or Friday so once he is transported to MI and he is charged there, I feel sure the press will be all over the story! The suits are probably interrogating the H E double hockey sticks out of him during this time. I wonder if he's talked, asked for cigarettes or nice meals in exchange for talking, etc?

I can't help but wish that OPD had taken up AMW on their offer to cover this case. The composite looks very much like the serial stabber. Even if he isn't responsible for Tom and Shirlee's murders, someone may have connected the dots and Abuelazam caught sooner and lives saved. That's JMO and there's no need to focus on the what ifs.

Justice for Tom and Shirlee and their families!!

all MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-24-2010, 12:25 PM
School begins tomorrow where I live and all the kids are outside enjoying their last day of summer vaca. I thought of Tom and how he should be out skateboarding and enjoying life, etc. It made me sad.

Then I felt anger that some weirdo murdered him and cut his life short, and robbed Shirlee of watching her grandchildren grow up.

Anyway, bumping up from page 3 for Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman....

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-24-2010, 02:28 PM
I'm struck by how much the so-called Flint serial killer, Elias Abuelazam, who has just been arrested after randomly stabbing people in at least three states, look like the sketch of the possible Hunter-Sherman suspect.

I wonder if he can be tied to Nebraska at all. I just read that one point he worked at a hospital in Leesburg, VA, so there's a background in hospital/medical field.

I also recall that Hunter-Sherman witnesses said the suspect's SUV didn't have a front license plate. Flint serial killer witnesses also commented on how suspect's SUV lacked front plate --- Michigan doesn't require front plate. Does Nebraska?

This guy was very violent and clearly very mobile. Definitely worth OPD looking into...


file:///Users/michelle/Desktop/images.jpgfile:///Users/michelle/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.png

I hope this works. This still shot of EA is creepy, IMO, because it is very similar to the composite. Notice the pure cunning irradiating from his eyes.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/08/serial_stabbing_suspect_elias.html

MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-24-2010, 02:32 PM
OK, I didn't do that correctly but the composite is shown on lady memac's post # 279 on page 12, if you would like to compare. My apologies....wm

Snick1946
08-25-2010, 10:58 AM
I hope this works. This still shot of EA is creepy, IMO, because it is very similar to the composite. Notice the pure cunning irradiating from his eyes.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/08/serial_stabbing_suspect_elias.html

MOO

wm

Seeing this guy's photo is like a punch in my stomach, every time. There is a lot about investigation procedure I don't understand and am just trusting that his connection to this case is going to be checked into carefully. We know that EA has not only attacked black men in the street; there are probably instances of his doing so in homes, etc. OPD is looking into any connection, probably it takes time, there is a long line of other agencies looking at this guy.
It's a cool Fall like day here in Omaha and I took my son to High School this morning. He is Tom's age. So much was taken away from his and Shirlee's family by the coward who did this thing. I wish sometimes that I were religous because right now I'd be praying for this connection to check out and end the families' suffering.

waltzingmatilda
08-25-2010, 11:43 AM
I know what you mean snick. I get the same 'punched in the stomach feeling' as you. Maybe it is because of seeing this young mans wounds. He is just a boy really and IIRC it was reported the youngest victim in Flint was 15 yrs. old.

Warning somewhat graphic video. The young man shows the wound to his abdomen at about :22 .

msnbc.com Video Player

I'll bet many LEA's across the country are seeking this guys DNA due to him traveling around the USA so much. I feel sure a timeline will eventually emerge regarding his movements. Even if he turns out to not be the killer in this case I want to say, GO OPD! for checking it out. Leave no stone unturned for Tom and Shirlee, I say!

OT Congrats to your son for entering HS. What an exciting time for him! They grow up so fast don't they? I'm sure you an Mrs Snick are very proud of him. Next thing you know, he will be learning to drive! EEK!!! (that was one of the scariest things for me while raising my kids, LOL!)

all MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-26-2010, 11:09 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38863283/ns/us_news/

The attacks started in late spring, and a pattern emerged after a dozen more men were stabbed between late June and early August. Survivors described the attacker as a big man wearing a baseball-style cap and feigning the need for car help or directions.
The above info in italics caused a lightbulb to go off in my head. I may be reaching here so please tell me your collective thoughts on this idea. Remember the eyewitness account in the beginning who reportedly saw the SUV starting and stopping in the Dundee neighborhood on the day of the murders? IMO, it is possible that the killer of Tom and Shirlee may have used car trouble as an excuse to enter the Hunter residence.

I researched serial killers this a.m. and one who was interviewed described it as an 'urge' that was uncontrollable. How does a serial killer satisfy this 'urge' if the 'urge' overcomes his psyche during daylight hours? It wouldn't make sense to satisfy his 'urge' outdoors in broad daylight and risk being caught. He would need to create a 'ruse' to gain entry into his intended victims residence. I wonder if this guy had crossed paths with Tom or at least seen him while he walked home from the bus one day. If other students walked with Tom, he couldn't very well make his move in daylight hours at a time of day when there is foot traffic about the neighborhood. He may have stalked the neighborhood for a few days looking for an easy victim or even asked Tom for directions while he was walking home. Perhaps he was looking for a home where he thought the child was alone in the afternoon. But surprise! Shirlee was there cleaning that day with her car parked in the back of the home.

It is a long shot that EA was in Omaha on that March day in 2008 but the more I think about it, the more I think these murders could be the work of a serial killer. If not EA, then some other deranged person.

This is all just a theory, MOO and all that jazz. Besides, I like keeping the thread bumped up to page one....

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-26-2010, 11:12 AM
Oh, one other thing. I hope the FBI/LE check EA's SUV for any previous paint jobs. I remember reading somewhere that EA's SUV looked like the paint job was NOT the factory one. Sorry, I have no link.

waltzingmatilda
08-26-2010, 11:45 AM
A few other thoughts.....

The perp parked his car a few houses down from the Hunter home and reportedly 'cut through' a neighbor's yard while walking to the front door of the H home.

IMO, this indicates that he did not wish to be recognized by anyone in the Hunter home as he took a foot route where he would less likely be seen from the residence prior to ringing the door bell. I wonder if he had previously encountered either of our victims.

Now I have a question! (for which I'll probably never have an answer)

Did Shirlee have keys for entry into other homes that she cleaned? Were any taken?

Sorry to hijack the thread everyone but just wanted to run some thoughts by you all while they are fresh in my head.

MOO

wm

omaha
08-26-2010, 05:22 PM
A few other thoughts.....

The perp parked his car a few houses down from the Hunter home and reportedly 'cut through' a neighbor's yard while walking to the front door of the H home.

IMO, this indicates that he did not wish to be recognized by anyone in the Hunter home as he took a foot route where he would less likely be seen from the residence prior to ringing the door bell. I wonder if he had previously encountered either of our victims.

Now I have a question! (for which I'll probably never have an answer)

Did Shirlee have keys for entry into other homes that she cleaned? Were any taken?

Sorry to hijack the thread everyone but just wanted to run some thoughts by you all while they are fresh in my head.

MOO

wm

I wonder if the perp was avoiding the victims or other people in the neighborhood… Head scratcher.

Snick1946
08-26-2010, 08:00 PM
I think I see where some of you are going. If this was someone who either lived in the area or knew someone who did maybe he was trying hard not to be seen or at least recognized.
The idea about the keys is one I never thought of. Most cleaning people have a collection of keys for those they clean for, whether she would have had them all with her that day I dont know. Could the perp have been after something at another house, one she cleaned in? Something important enough to kill for? I wonder if LE checked out her other clients?
I recall right afterward reading that Shirlee cleaned almost exclusively in doctor's homes. Would that suggest anything?

waltzingmatilda
08-27-2010, 02:00 PM
It sure is a head scratcher omaha.....

Maybe he didn't wish to walk on the side walk for fear of someone getting a good look at him in passing.

Snick, I cleaned houses during summer break from school several years back. I had keys to the homes I cleaned. It occured to me that this could be a possible motive for someone to commit these murders. Nothing was reportedly stolen from the H residence and money was left behind in Shirlee's purse. Just throwing it out there as a possible theory because this is such a senseless crime.

All MOO

wm

YellowDog
08-27-2010, 10:02 PM
I still have a gut feeling that the killer is from right there in Omaha.

skywalker
08-30-2010, 08:27 AM
The perp parked his car a few houses down from the Hunter home and reportedly 'cut through' a neighbor's yard while walking to the front door of the H home. IMO, this indicates that he did not wish to be recognized by anyone in the Hunter home as he took a foot route where he would less likely be seen from the residence prior to ringing the door bell.
wm

I agree.



Did Shirlee have keys for entry into other homes that she cleaned? Were any taken?

wm

It was reported that nothing was taken. However, many details known only to the police have not been disclosed.

There haven't been any reports (that I'm aware of) that any of Shirlee's other clients were victims of subsequent home invasions, or other crimes that could be tied to the taking of Shirlee's keys.

We don't know if these murders were the work of a deranged stranger, but often 'those types' take souvenirs from their victims.

Does the fact that nothing was reported as being taken argue against this being the work of a random killer?

skywalker
08-30-2010, 08:48 AM
We don't have evidence at this time that Tom cyber stabbed anyone while online gaming.

Waltzing Matilda is correct. We don't know anything about Thomas' online gaming activities - what or when they took place. We don't know what game was placed on "pause" that day. It could have been anything.

While some assume it was a violent, on-line, role-playing game, it's just as good a guess that it was something tame, like Farmville. Or maybe he wasn't on-line at all, and was simply playing a video game like Mario Kart Racing. He was eleven years old, after all. And news reports were vague about when and where his on-line activities took place.


We do know that OPD searched every device (cell phones, computers, hard drives, etc.) belonging to or used by the Hunter family. If leads had been generated from that information, I think we would have seen more activity in the investigation by now.

It's been over two years....

Snick1946
08-30-2010, 11:07 AM
Waltzing Matilda is correct. We don't know anything about Thomas' online gaming activities - what or when they took place. We don't know what game was placed on "pause" that day. It could have been anything.

While some assume it was a violent, on-line, role-playing game, it's just as good a guess that it was something tame, like Farmville. Or maybe he wasn't on-line at all, and was simply playing a video game like Mario Kart Racing. He was eleven years old, after all. And news reports were vague about when and where his on-line activities took place.


We do know that OPD searched every device (cell phones, computers, hard drives, etc.) belonging to or used by the Hunter family. If leads had been generated from that information, I think we would have seen more activity in the investigation by now.

It's been over two years....

When my son was Tom's age he came home from school every day for awhile and played Medal of Honor on PS2. I have never assumed that he was playing online that day or even that he played online a lot on his PC. I did assume that because he was known to have been a bright kid and good with technology, that he may have done so.
However we shouldn't underrate the power of online games. My son lost a friend of several years due to some dumb thing that happened in an online game. He thought he was being playful- the other kid took it deadly serious and they weren't friends after that. They are both in High School now and the other kid looks the other way when he sees my son- incredible.

YellowDog
08-30-2010, 02:08 PM
This could just as easily have been someone who had been stalking Thomas......perhaps saw him at the YMCA or saw him get on or off the bus each day. I think the killer was looking for a specific target for a specific reason and it does not appear to have been robbery motivated. This could be from a grudge that goes way back that had been festering in someone's mind for a long time. If he was just looking for a random victim, why would he have been scrutinizing the neighborhood apparently looking for a specific address?

We may never know who committed these horrible crimes but I think the killer is a local.

tapu
08-30-2010, 09:29 PM
It would take some rock-hard evidence and a strong explanation to convince me that an 11-yr-old could be a target of this attack.

And not just because I have an 11-yr-old, but seriously....

thesaint
08-31-2010, 02:16 AM
The key angle is an interesting thought. Just seems like if someone is willing to murder they wouldn't have too much of an issue doing a B&E. Alarm systems would have to be circumvented in either case, with or without the physical key. Unless the perp got the code for the specific house, but it doesn't sound like it from the description of the attack on Shirley. She was considered to have been "surprised" in a hallway, I believe.

I don't recall if there was ever an explicit discussion of Tom's older siblings.

Always found it odd that Tom's family hasn't offered much of (or even any?) reward.

Doesn't seem like putting up whatever the difference between what Shirley's family is offering ($30,000?) and what is needed to push the published reward over $100K would be much of an issue for the double doctor family.

YellowDog
08-31-2010, 11:10 AM
Well, the eleven year old could be oblivious to the whole thing, People do fixate on other people. It happens.



It would take some rock-hard evidence and a strong explanation to convince me that an 11-yr-old could be a target of this attack.

And not just because I have an 11-yr-old, but seriously....

ShowerSinger
08-31-2010, 07:08 PM
Hi friends,
I sure do think of this case alot, and everyday pray justice can prevail. Of course my first thought was the school/asian person connection. Then, I went off on the husband having an affair connection...(made sense in the religious/kill kinda thing.) Especially when the house was titled over... Still, I wondered about the OLDER brothers, and their possible connections. Well, I came across this horrific crime, and it gave me pause. First, because the composite looks EXACTLY like this person. Then, my wondering armchair detective kicked in... Perhaps, there is a connection...if not this particular perp who looks EXACTLY like the composite, but who knows? Psychos & sociopaths don't make sense. Anyway, this link I am alluding to reminded me of our Omaha crimes. A long shot, I know, but the deprevity of this psycho, gave me pause. I know, I know, it's a long shot. ( And I still think that the school of the boy might be a better lead...) But ya gotta admit, the composite photo of this psycccccccccccho machete/large knife killer is eerie.
I wonder if there is ANY, ANY connection,...be it drugs with the older brothers, or this freak simply didn't know what address he was looking for.
Nonetheless, it gave me pause. Read, and especially look at this crazy case. I do admit, he was from Texas, (I think,) and somehow this socio made it to Lexington... with a girlfriend who finaly turned him in??? I'm wondring what could have been... I know it's a longshot, and I do have other theories, still... this guy's mug looks just like the perp in this case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would just like someone to further investigate this possibility. Can't hurt, right?
Perhaps this perp felt ripped off and "wronged" by someone. Didn't have the EXACT address, and went karate-psycho? Just wanting to exact some sick revenge. That in turn, led me to wonder.... Where were the older boys? Is there any connection???
[Not trying to make this case harder, just wondering what if, and if there is a possible connection?? I realize it is about a 12-hour straight drive from Omaha to this Michigan address, so maybe not, but WHAT IF?]
Sorry for adding probably nonsense, but what if? Look at the photo:

www.voicenews.com/articles/2010/08/26/news/doc4c753581b3b17936428464.txt


Crap I can't link the photos, but there are two that will blow your world if ya look at this dude compared to the composites. I'm so sorry I have to go, and research this further. (My son is sick, and has had some horrible stomach virus since 3 am.---hurling and such, so he is priority #1) Just wanted to throw this out there, and see if anyone else could link his photos,, and such.
Take care friends for justice,
Gotta go take care of my own. Can't wait to check back to see what you all think of this Jorge Diaz, Jr.

Snick1946
08-31-2010, 10:32 PM
ShowerSinger- welcome back!! You have been missed.

Theories come and go on this case still you have to keep getting back to a couple central questions. Why does LE seem so relunctant to push into certain areas of investigation. Why have there been so few stories in local media. Is something or someone being protected? If so who and why?

ShowerSinger
09-01-2010, 08:37 PM
Many humble thanks, for missing me. I really feel for you locals, and just shake my head when I think about this tragedy. It's unbelievable that it's being "swept under the rug." I'd be parked outside the detective's office if this were a loved one of mine. Their phone number would be on speed dial, so would America's Most Wanted, Nancy Grace, Geraldo, and yes, even the President of the United States! I seriously don't get how they turned down America's Most Wanted. Why??? That's something they need to answer for. Perhaps they could at least say we are confident in our "person of interest." However, we still lack enough evidence to seal the deal, so please come forward anyone who knows anything. Does make ya really question is there some sort of cover up, and if so, for whom? I dunno. Isn't there some gumshoe who could get on this, and at least assure the public they have someone specific in mind who did these crimes? Well, to shake things up, I hope they check the whereabouts of this killer:
www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201008270635/NEWS01/8270310

This story made me wonder if there weren't some info that police were holding back on...like an accelerant, or hopefully DNA. Have the police even said if they have any DNA? I don't see how that could hurt the case if they confirmed just that little bit of info. Sure would make me feel better if they did.

These two victims deserve better than this. So does your community. Why the silence??? Where's the public push to get this solved?

ShowerSinger
09-02-2010, 01:40 AM
Crap. I am exhausted, and headed for bed, yet sorely disappointed that this thread always seems to go down on the list. Everyone I have asked says this dude's photo matches the composite photo. So hey, why not go to the witnesses, and ask them? Check DNA? Or, is that not something the detectives are used to? Especially since they say they are always occupied with current crimes....? My PI friend, even though we are in another state said, "Hell yes, that composite looks just like their perp."

Okay. Way too tired to wait to hear a response, but I would like to know what everyone else on this thread thinks about this photo of the psycho- hacker killer looks like in comparison to the composite. There is another photo of this particular freak, but I am just too tired to try and link it. Needless to say, I think it's an amazing likeness.

Praying for answers, and safety for my Omaha friends!

Still interested in knowing about young Tom's older siblings....or Daddy Dearest love interests.... JMHO and curiosity....

ShowerSinger
09-03-2010, 10:30 PM
This case has taken way too long to be solved.
I pray for the people in Omaha.
You still have a woman, and CHILD-Killer on the loose.
For reasons I don't understand, America's Most Wanted was willing to spotlight this case, yet your local police turned them down.
Bumping this case to the top!
Praying for swifter justice.

waltzingmatilda
09-06-2010, 12:53 PM
Many humble thanks, for missing me. I really feel for you locals, and just shake my head when I think about this tragedy. It's unbelievable that it's being "swept under the rug." I'd be parked outside the detective's office if this were a loved one of mine. Their phone number would be on speed dial, so would America's Most Wanted, Nancy Grace, Geraldo, and yes, even the President of the United States! I seriously don't get how they turned down America's Most Wanted. Why??? That's something they need to answer for. Perhaps they could at least say we are confident in our "person of interest." However, we still lack enough evidence to seal the deal, so please come forward anyone who knows anything. Does make ya really question is there some sort of cover up, and if so, for whom? I dunno. Isn't there some gumshoe who could get on this, and at least assure the public they have someone specific in mind who did these crimes? Well, to shake things up, I hope they check the whereabouts of this killer:
www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201008270635/NEWS01/8270310

This story made me wonder if there weren't some info that police were holding back on...like an accelerant, or hopefully DNA. Have the police even said if they have any DNA? I don't see how that could hurt the case if they confirmed just that little bit of info. Sure would make me feel better if they did.

These two victims deserve better than this. So does your community. Why the silence??? Where's the public push to get this solved?

Hello ShowerSinger! It is good reading you again. This perp in your link certainly fits the description of the dark skinned man. I am so grateful that you posted this link because we never know whether there could be a connection or not. Similar crimes, even though in a different city, should be investigated because as I have learned from following WS, many of these perps travel around from state to state.

I also wanted to address your questions regarding family members possible involvement. WS TOS does not allow sleuthing of family members as they are considered crime victims. Unless a family member is named as a POI or suspect in the case by LE. However, we can discuss matters of public record....ie, media interviews, matters of public record, etc. For instance, public records show that a 'quit claim deed' was filed (in Dec. '08, IIRC) which removed Dr. William Hunter's name from the deed on the Dundee home.
I hope this helps clarify some things and why we have not been able to sleuth the families in this disturbing case.

I just hope OPD still working diligently to solve the murders of Tom and Shirlee.

Hello to everyone! I've been taking a break fro the holiday and am just catching up. I hope you all had a nice labor day weekend. I am glad to see return posters and renewed interest in this case.

MOO

wm

Sin City
09-08-2010, 03:24 AM
Karla & Robert Anderson : Dundee murder suicide
www.action3news.com/global/story.asp%3fs=10092164

I don't know if this case has been referenced to on this thread, but I just found it, and LE findings seem very hinky to me. Is LE stating that a robbery at their home occurred shortly after Mr. Anderson shot his wife, and then himself?

Would any locals give their take on this, or what LE actually ruled this case as?

I was born & raised in Omaha, and my Aunt & Uncle live a few blocks away from the Dundee neighborhood. I was visiting them a month after the Omaha Double Murders, and my Aunt & Uncle were telling me that one of their friends had been murdered a few blocks away. They had very kind things to say about Shirlee. And, at the time the neighborhood was still thinking the killer was a traveling salesman.

I continue to follow this case on Websleuths, but I don't usually post to this thread, as I don't have anything to contribute usually.

Blondie in Spokane
09-08-2010, 06:53 AM
Karla & Robert Anderson : Dundee murder suicide
www.action3news.com/global/story.asp%3fs=10092164

I don't know if this case has been referenced to on this thread, but I just found it, and LE findings seem very hinky to me. Is LE stating that a robbery at their home occurred shortly after Mr. Anderson shot his wife, and then himself?

Would any locals give their take on this, or what LE actually ruled this case as?

I was born & raised in Omaha, and my Aunt & Uncle live a few blocks away from the Dundee neighborhood. I was visiting them a month after the Omaha Double Murders, and my Aunt & Uncle were telling me that one of their friends had been murdered a few blocks away. They had very kind things to say about Shirlee. And, at the time the neighborhood was still thinking the killer was a traveling salesman.

I continue to follow this case on Websleuths, but I don't usually post to this thread, as I don't have anything to contribute usually.

Hi Sin City....

Thanks for the link to the Anderson story.

I'm in agreement that the findings just don't make sense.

LE stated several items were missing from the home and there was evidence of a break-in, the couples' Mountaineer was found parked 3 miles away from their home with the keys in it...

I'm glad their daughter has written OPD for proof of any gunshot residue present on her father. I doubt any was ever found. This just doesn't fit at all, IMO.

This crime was inflicted on a member of the medical field. It certainly sounds like it could be related to Tom and Shirlee's murders, IMO


**Anyway, I'm glad you chimed in here. I usually just "lurk" because I am fascinated by the minds that are working on this case here. All of the sleuthing so far is so impressive to say the least!**

It sure sounds like Shirlee was a terrific person. It doesn't seem fair that this crime has gone unsolved for her sake and for Tom's. They both deserved much better than for their murders to be left unsolved in some cold-case file.

waltzingmatilda
09-08-2010, 07:15 AM
Good morning all!

Welcome SinCity! Blondie it is good hearing from you again.

I am so glad that you brought up the Anderson case. Snick started a thread for them here but it never really took off with discussion since LE so quickly claimed murder/suicide. I don't remember the thread title but you could search their names and find it easily I would think.

I am glad the Anderson's daughter is questioning OPD regarding the gunshot residue on her father. I just feel LE was in a hurry to 'solve' the case and it seems hinky to me.

According to some Omaha posters, there were breakins in the area prior to Tom and Shirlee's murders. And then there is the Dr. connection which makes me wonder if Drs' homes were being targeted for some reason.

SinCity, thanks for sharing your knowledge about Shirlee. I've always thought she has very kind eyes when I look at her picture.

I wish OPD would start over at the beginning, reinterview, get some fresh eyes on the evidence and solve this case. It's been 2 and a half years. It's time.

MOO

wm

YellowDog
09-08-2010, 11:47 AM
Karla & Robert Anderson : Dundee murder suicide
www.action3news.com/global/story.asp%3fs=10092164

I don't know if this case has been referenced to on this thread, but I just found it, and LE findings seem very hinky to me. Is LE stating that a robbery at their home occurred shortly after Mr. Anderson shot his wife, and then himself?

Would any locals give their take on this, or what LE actually ruled this case as?

I was born & raised in Omaha, and my Aunt & Uncle live a few blocks away from the Dundee neighborhood. I was visiting them a month after the Omaha Double Murders, and my Aunt & Uncle were telling me that one of their friends had been murdered a few blocks away. They had very kind things to say about Shirlee. And, at the time the neighborhood was still thinking the killer was a traveling salesman.

I continue to follow this case on Websleuths, but I don't usually post to this thread, as I don't have anything to contribute usually.


I certainly have wondered about that case, too. It was just a little over a year after the Hunter/Sherman murders. Is it just coincidence that both familes were in the medical field and lived in the same area of Omaha?

I believe items such as a checkbook were taken from the Anderson home and their SUV was found several blocks from the house. Why would Dr. Anderson park his vehicle blocks away, walk home and kill his wife? Doesn't make any sense to me.

No motive has ever been given for any of these murders. Is this all part of a "giant" coverup? It's so strange.

I wonder if the Hunters and the Andersons were connected in anyway professionally?

waltzingmatilda
09-08-2010, 12:11 PM
I certainly have wondered about that case, too. It was just a little over a year after the Hunter/Sherman murders. Is it just coincidence that both familes were in the medical field and lived in the same area of Omaha?

I believe items such as a checkbook were taken from the Anderson home and their SUV was found several blocks from the house. Why would Dr. Anderson park his vehicle blocks away, walk home and kill his wife? Doesn't make any sense to me.

No motive has ever been given for any of these murders. Is this all part of a "giant" coverup? It's so strange.

I wonder if the Hunters and the Andersons were connected in anyway professionally?

Hmmm YD, I don't recall the checkbook story but am not refreshed on the facts of the case as the above link no longer works.

I do have the same questons as you do! IDK why, but it seems the Anderson case was closed quickly. I wonder why? It seems that it could have easily been a crime staged to look like a M/S considering the age of the victims. Perps nowadays have so much information at their disposal via the internet, I think modern day crooks are much more savvy about committing their devious doings. JMO.

Is there some way to find out more about Dr Anderson's practice and his specialty at this late date? Maybe some of our posters from Omaha will chime in here...

all MOO,

wm

Snick1946
09-08-2010, 12:22 PM
Link to the thread from 2009 about the Anderson alleged M/S:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84735&highlight=anderson+omaha

Without getting specific, I have had doubt expressed to me by a reliable source that this was as claimed by OPD. It always seemed odd to me that Dr Anderson withdrew money from an ATM for a trip they were planning the next day, then went home and allegedly murdered his wife. Such things happen- but it just seemed to me that OPD was real anxious to close the book on this one. I recall their first reaction in the hours following discovery of the bodies- they had LE all over the Dundee area and a helicopter with searchlight that appeared to be searching for someone specific. At the risk of sounding cynical I have wondered if they were faced with a crime scene that could go either way and decided to take to easier course- especially as a lot of nerves were on edge from the Hunter murders. This took place almost exactly a year from those.
From all accounts, Shirlee was a fine person with a sense of humor and loved her family. She apparently was a friend of the lady who cleans at my inlaws home, also in Dundee. That's how I started on this journey.

waltzingmatilda
09-08-2010, 12:44 PM
Link to the thread from 2009 about the Anderson alleged M/S:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84735&highlight=anderson+omaha

Without getting specific, I have had doubt expressed to me by a reliable source that this was as claimed by OPD. It always seemed odd to me that Dr Anderson withdrew money from an ATM for a trip they were planning the next day, then went home and allegedly murdered his wife. Such things happen- but it just seemed to me that OPD was real anxious to close the book on this one. I recall their first reaction in the hours following discovery of the bodies- they had LE all over the Dundee area and a helicopter with searchlight that appeared to be searching for someone specific. At the risk of sounding cynical I have wondered if they were faced with a crime scene that could go either way and decided to take to easier course- especially as a lot of nerves were on edge from the Hunter murders. This took place almost exactly a year from those.
From all accounts, Shirlee was a fine person with a sense of humor and loved her family. She apparently was a friend of the lady who cleans at my inlaws home, also in Dundee. That's how I started on this journey.

Thanks for refreshing us on the details of the Anderson case and providing the link, Snick. I had a thought while reading you post. Do you kow if there was any similar crime during March 2010? I recall reading about bodies being found around the zoo. (at least I think it was in Omaha) Does anyone remember when this occurred? I am just wondering if there is some crazed and enraged person with anger management issues running around in Omaha and for some reason the rage manifests itself in March.

TIA for all your help. All MOO.

wm

Snick1946
09-08-2010, 12:58 PM
Thanks for refreshing us on the details of the Anderson case and providing the link, Snick. I had a thought while reading you post. Do you kow if there was any similar crime during March 2010? I recall reading about bodies being found around the zoo. (at least I think it was in Omaha) Does anyone remember when this occurred? I am just wondering if there is some crazed and enraged person with anger management issues running around in Omaha and for some reason the rage manifests itself in March.

TIA for all your help. All MOO.

wm


The 'Zoo Murders" took place in July- as in so many cases here there was a media flurry, then nothing. Here is a link to the post I made on it,

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110019&highlight=omaha+zoo

I don't know if this is typical these days, it does seem that so many murders are going unsolved in Omaha.

YellowDog
09-09-2010, 12:38 AM
I have two questions.

1. Why won't they disclose how the two victims at the zoo were killed? Were they stabbed?

2. Was Dr. Anderson's SUV a 2008 model or older? Just curious. Wonder what color it was.

Sin City
09-09-2010, 11:12 PM
I have two questions.

1. Why won't they disclose how the two victims at the zoo were killed? Were they stabbed?

2. Was Dr. Anderson's SUV a 2008 model or older? Just curious. Wonder what color it was.

According to a news article the stolen Anderson vehicle was a Mercury Mountaineer. Article indicated that the keys were in the ignition when it was found, and there wasn't a scratch on the vehicle.

Sin City
09-09-2010, 11:27 PM
On another note: murders were occurring in the 1960s & 1970s in Omaha, and OPD didn't investigate the few I'm aware of well enough, as locals wouldn't talk to the OPD. However, word passed around among the locals, and the criminals are still free. They may have done time in prison for other crimes, but not for the murders that I'm aware of.

Locals keep the information among family members, and because the victims and criminals are local the families take the information to the grave.

It's insane, and some of the secrets pass on to the next generation. Families are afraid of retaliation, threats, and intimidation, if they speak.

waltzingmatilda
09-10-2010, 02:50 PM
Sin City, I am grateful for your contributions regarding the mindset of both Omaha locals and OPD. I have visited almost evey state in our union but have never been to Nebraska or Kansas so it's nice to hear a lttle bit of local flavor. I have a question. Is OPD reputed to be corrupt, like Cook County, IL? This is the impression I am getting from different posters here but nobody has came right out and said it. Your insight is interesting. Thank you. MOO

wm

skywalker
09-10-2010, 07:17 PM
Always found it odd that Tom's family hasn't offered much of (or even any?) reward.

Doesn't seem like putting up whatever the difference between what Shirley's family is offering ($30,000?) and what is needed to push the published reward over $100K would be much of an issue for the double doctor family.

I believe the original reward money ($20,000 or $25,000) was from an anonymous donor or donors.

The Hunter's are reported to be very quiet, private people and it's unlikely that they would have announced putting up reward money.

All indications are that they find it most healing to focus on the positive memories, and ways in which they can commemorate Thomas' life while benefiting others (endowed scholarships, a peaceful, welcoming statute outside the Cardiac Center which embodies Thomas' spirit and love of nature).

I can't imagine their loss, but sense that perhaps focusing on the horrific crime and the pursuit of an elusive, cold-blooded murderer stirs up unbearable pain, and takes them further from the peace they need in order to carry on any sort of normal life in the aftermath of this tragedy.

How does any parent "recover" from the violent death of a child? Yet what other choice do they have but to carry on? Is their life forever after a hell-on-earth? It's simply too sad.

waltzingmatilda
09-11-2010, 10:58 AM
I believe the original reward money ($20,000 or $25,000) was from an anonymous donor or donors.

The Hunter's are reported to be very quiet, private people and it's unlikely that they would have announced putting up reward money.

All indications are that they find it most healing to focus on the positive memories, and ways in which they can commemorate Thomas' life while benefiting others (endowed scholarships, a peaceful, welcoming statute outside the Cardiac Center which embodies Thomas' spirit and love of nature).

I can't imagine their loss, but sense that perhaps focusing on the horrific crime and the pursuit of an elusive, cold-blooded murderer stirs up unbearable pain, and takes them further from the peace they need in order to carry on any sort of normal life in the aftermath of this tragedy.

How does any parent "recover" from the violent death of a child? Yet what other choice do they have but to carry on? Is their life forever after a hell-on-earth? It's simply too sad.

Thank you for your insight into the Hunter family. I just cannot wrap my mind around the hurt and pain they must feel over losing Tom. Everyone grieves differently, time still ticks away in the absence of a loved one, but as a parent, I don't think the pain of losing one of your children ever goes away.

I have never lost a child but I almost did in 2006 and I am grateful every day that he lived thru it. I guess this is why I feel such passion for this case and empathy for both the Hunter and Sherman families...especially the Hunter's because Tom was just a kid and no parent expects for one of their children to pass before they do, especially brutally murdered by the hands of a fiend.

Life aint fair. I do hope Mr & Mrs. Hunter somehow find comfort in the fact that their 'baby' Tom has not been forgotten. This is why I try and keep the thread bumped up to page one on WS. Bless them for quietly using their available resources in productive ways to keep Tom's memory alive!

wm

skywalker
09-12-2010, 10:33 AM
I do hope Mr & Mrs. Hunter somehow find comfort in the fact that their 'baby' Tom has not been forgotten. This is why I try and keep the thread bumped up to page one on WS. Bless them for quietly using their available resources in productive ways to keep Tom's memory alive!

wm

Your words really touched me. It helps to know that there are so many people who have not forgotten!

waltzingmatilda
09-15-2010, 07:15 AM
Bumping up from page 3. wm

YellowDog
09-15-2010, 03:58 PM
You know if the detectives in Omaha were held accountable to a certain percentage rate of solving murders, they might release a few clues to the public to solicit their help.

I don't understand their reasoning about releasing vitually no information regarding these crimes.

If only Nebraska had the Sunshine Law.

Snick1946
09-17-2010, 11:29 AM
I wonder how many on this thread have also been following developments in the trial of the killers of Dr. William Petit's family in the news?
I was doing a bit of catch up research in this crime and while I don't think there was any connection I wonder if the same scenerio could have played out. Could someone have targeted the Hunter family from a chance encounter? Perhaps followed Tom's bus home from school? Nothing was apparently stolen in this crime but the killer might not have been there for money.
I did not think it wise to post this on the thread specificly for that crime but I wonder about some factors in it- Dr Petit's injuries were not that severe, he was the only person to escape, etc. Dr Petit was not rated well by some of his patients per what I could find. Probably that is way out there but again, that's another case.
Whenever I research a case of murder in a prominent family I find myself looking again and again. Some of these cases are very multi-faceted.

waltzingmatilda
09-17-2010, 01:19 PM
I wonder how many on this thread have also been following developments in the trial of the killers of Dr. William Petit's family in the news?
I was doing a bit of catch up research in this crime and while I don't think there was any connection I wonder if the same scenerio could have played out. Could someone have targeted the Hunter family from a chance encounter? Perhaps followed Tom's bus home from school? Nothing was apparently stolen in this crime but the killer might not have been there for money.
I did not think it wise to post this on the thread specificly for that crime but I wonder about some factors in it- Dr Petit's injuries were not that severe, he was the only person to escape, etc. Dr Petit was not rated well by some of his patients per what I could find. Probably that is way out there but again, that's another case.
Whenever I research a case of murder in a prominent family I find myself looking again and again. Some of these cases are very multi-faceted.

I've been following it a little bit, Snick. Every time I hear of a tragedy in a family where a member is in the medical field, I think of this case and wonder why?

I've also followed this tragic case which occured at Johns Hopkins.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39213367/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

It seems there is no protection nowadays for those in professions which once carried a veil of protection and respect in years past. It brings forth questions in my mind if some 'event' occured at Creighton involving either of the Dr's Hunter. (no disrepect intended at all to either doctor as it is born of my own curiosity) A bereaved family member of a patient who feels their loved one didn't receive adequate medical care may not have a grip on the reality that doctors are not gods. I mean, how would either dr. H know if a patient's family member was unbalanced and wanted to exact revenge against them for a family members death?

I am also hestitant to broach this subject because I don't wish to cause any hurt to familly members who may read here. I just hope that OPD has investigated this theory/angle.


MOO......wm

waltzingmatilda
09-20-2010, 10:24 AM
bumping up from page 3......

I have a link to share with you all. This is another awful tragedy where an 8 year old boy had his throat slashed while riding bicycles with his family. He had become separated from his Dr. Mom on the bike path when this mentally ill (IMO) young man attacked him. This quote really ticks me off.....

The warrant application says the youth walked up to construction
workers on June 10, asked them to call 911, and said he had just
stabbed someone. It says that when asked why, the youth said,
"Because he was the first one there."


http://www.katc.com/news/insanity-plea-for-teen-accused-of-killing/


Is it as simple as that for murderers? What a callous comment!!! Sounds like he felt the 'urge' to kill and picked the first (and probably the smallest too) human being he saw.
I keep going back to thinking that the person responsible for Tom and Shirlee's murders has rage or anger issues similar to this young man. IMO, it is 'insane' to commit murder in the first place.

All MOO for today.

I hope you all have a good week......wm o~<:o)

Snick1946
09-20-2010, 11:17 AM
Sadly, these days, it is as simple as that. I recall right after our discussion began most of us felt there had to have been some deep personal connection between the killer and the victim (s). We were looking for an angry ex student of the Hunters, or family member of someone who died under their care.
I have lately nearly concluded this to have been a random act of an insane individual. Someone with some degree of skill at knowing how to kill, perhaps someone trained in the military as a commando. He may have been local, more likely not. He is a serial killer who perhaps maintains a normal life then every so often something comes over him, he may travel far from where he lives to kill. He's not as far gone as the young man in the article at least not yet. He has done this before and has done so since.
If so, this case may never be solved. About the best we can hope for is that someone recognizes what is going on and he becomes neutralized. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that is reality these days.

YellowDog
09-20-2010, 10:38 PM
I do think the way people are getting killed off and go missing in this country left and right, we are going to have to hold our policing systems to higher standards. I think statistics on solved and unsolved cases need to be put in front of the public's eyes on a consistent basis. If a county has a higher percentage than the average, hold them accountable and replace the department heads responsible for solving these crimes. I realize it is impossible to expect all crimes to be solved, but it honestly seems like they used to solve a much higher percentage than they do now, even with DNA.

The media makes us much more aware of what's going on in this world these days.

Snick1946
09-21-2010, 10:04 AM
I do think the way people are getting killed off and go missing in this country left and right, we are going to have to hold our policing systems to higher standards. I think statistics on solved and unsolved cases need to be put in front of the public's eyes on a consistent basis. If a county has a higher percentage than the average, hold them accountable and replace the department heads responsible for solving these crimes. I realize it is impossible to expect all crimes to be solved, but it honestly seems like they used to solve a much higher percentage than they do now, even with DNA.

The media makes us much more aware of what's going on in this world these days.

After my last post I got to thinking about some of the recent murders in Omaha that have gone unsolved just in the past few months. I had posted about the couple killed and their bodies dumped outside the zoo- there was a family from Brazil- couple and a child- that went missing this past Winter and were never seen again. LE arrested a couple creeps using their credit cards and I thought then that they had the perps, but no- LE says they 'weren't involved' and nothing more since.
When I get the time and energy I may research back and list them, I know there are a couple of convenience store killings that are still unsolved despite the fact the killers were caught on tape.
I think a seperate thread about various LE venues and their close rate might prove enlightening. It's a thought.

waltzingmatilda
09-21-2010, 10:40 AM
That would be enlightening, snick. I am interested in the listing unsolved cases in Omaha also. (I'm a visual learner)

I agree with YD about accountability for LEA's. Are their gvmnt grants based on their ratio of solved vs unsolved cases? I know that LEA's are underpaid and understaffed as they are public servants. IMO, there should be some accountability held for solving cases just like school teachers, who are also public servants , have accountability for test scores.

MOO

wm

YellowDog
09-21-2010, 12:16 PM
Many police chiefs in metropolitan areas make very good salaries and usually detectives are paid well. Here is the salary range in Dallas.

www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/HR/ClassSpec/PolicePaySchedule

Here are some statistics for Omaha crime:

http://www.opd.ci.omaha.ne.us/crime-information/crime-statistics

Here is the 2007 pay schedule for the Police Chief in Omaha. I imagine it is more today.

http://www.cityofomaha.org/humanresources/images/stories/public_documents/pay_plans/current/police%20management%202007.pdf

There are very few professions that will keep higher managment employed when their performance does not show improvement.

Snick1946
09-23-2010, 10:04 AM
This story has again surfaced in local media, as part of a larger context. Here is a paste from an article in yesterday's World Herald:

Now the Nebraska State Patrol is hoping that using playing cards to highlight unsolved murders will bring justice to dozens of families.

The State Patrol on Tuesday released its first edition of cold-case homicide playing cards, using the photographs of victims to call attention to unsolved or suspected homicides in Nebraska that date as far back as 41 years.

The oldest case is the slaying of 17-year-old Mary Heese of Wahoo. Her body was found in a ditch southwest of Wahoo on March 25, 1969. That case is on the jack of clubs.

But some of the featured homicides occurred as recently as 2008. That's when 11-year-old Tom Hunter and his family's 57-year-old maid, Shirlee Sherman, were slain in a Omaha's Dundee area. Their photos are featured on two cards.

Patrol officials said about 20 states have used “cold-case playing cards” to generate new tips.

Two unsolved murders in Florida were solved two years ago after 100,000 decks of such cards were distributed to prisons in that state.

Nebraska is distributing 1,000 decks featuring 43 cold cases to inmates of state prisons and 22 county jails, according to Sgt. Glenn Elwell of the patrol's investigative services division.

“They may well know someone or something,” he said.

Decks of cards are not being distributed to the general public, although the images can be viewed on the patrol's website, www.statepatrol.nebraska.gov/ColdCase.aspx.

That is to avoid any suggestion that the cold-case cards are some kind of “novelty,” Elwell said. Families of the homicide victims featured on the cards granted permission to include their relatives' cases, he said.

Brad Waite, a brother of Shirlee Sherman, said his family is totally supportive. The cards, Waite said, might prompt inmates to talk about the March 13, 2008, homicides in a Dundee home.

“It sure as heck can't hurt,” he said. “These playing cards might jog someone's memory.”

Elwell said no information is too minor to forward to authorities.

“It may be something you consider ridiculous,” he said, “but that could be the very information that could put us over the top in solving these crimes.”

Cases involving child victims are featured on more than one card, Elwell said.

Local law enforcement agencies were consulted on which cold cases to feature. There are about 250 unsolved murders across the state, and Elwell said the goal is to feature all of them on cards if funding is available.

The playing card idea was suggested by the State Patrol's cold-case analyst, Kimberly Van Den Akker. Her position and the $3,100 cost of the initial playing cards were funded by a federal grant.

Tips about cold cases can be submitted by calling 877-441-5678 or by sending an e-mail to NEfusioncenter@nebraska.gov.

Contact the writer:

402-473-9584, paul.hammel@owh.com



I am told that these card decks will also be distributed for use in the state penal system. You have to wonder if this isn't some attempt to induce someone in prison with knowledge to start talking?

YellowDog
09-23-2010, 12:00 PM
250 unsolved murders across the state. This number does not include any MISSING and/or presumed dead victims or questionable suicides. I found it strange that with that many unsolved murders they found the need to duplicate cards. I think the cards should be sorted by county to see just how many of these were in the Omaha area.

None of the cards show the manner of death either which might show some sort of pattern.

I think the cards are a good idea but they need to divulge more information.

shefner
09-24-2010, 10:20 PM
I have been reading about this case for a couple days now. It is amazing to see how you experienced sleuthers go to work trying to resolve cases. I really am a novice and don't have much to offer in the way of information.
However, I did notice a photo of Tom that has stuck out to me. In the photo, he is holding a WII remote. I have learned a lot about the WII since our family purchased one last year. With most of these modern game machines, you can access the internet through your television. My daughter's boyfriend would sit for several hours each night and play games with people living halfway across the world. They were all strangers to him...but he could play games and chat with them right from the gaming machine.
I would not be surprised to find that Tom had played games against some pretty astute adults. He seemed to be an intelligent kid with a special knack for technology. Perhaps he competed against someone who never even realized how young a boy he was?

I would love to see this case resolved. My heart goes out to these families....

waltzingmatilda
09-25-2010, 12:18 PM
I have been reading about this case for a couple days now. It is amazing to see how you experienced sleuthers go to work trying to resolve cases. I really am a novice and don't have much to offer in the way of information.
However, I did notice a photo of Tom that has stuck out to me. In the photo, he is holding a WII remote. I have learned a lot about the WII since our family purchased one last year. With most of these modern game machines, you can access the internet through your television. My daughter's boyfriend would sit for several hours each night and play games with people living halfway across the world. They were all strangers to him...but he could play games and chat with them right from the gaming machine.
I would not be surprised to find that Tom had played games against some pretty astute adults. He seemed to be an intelligent kid with a special knack for technology. Perhaps he competed against someone who never even realized how young a boy he was?

I would love to see this case resolved. My heart goes out to these families....

:Welcome-12-june:

shefner, I'm happy you've joined us here.

I know what you are saying about the Wii game and the online contact with 'strangers' from across the world. One of the few
facts that we know about this case is that Tom Hunter's game was on 'pause' when OPD arrived on the scene of the crime.

This indicates to me that this was a part of Tom's daily after school routine. Tom's online activity could certainly provide clues regarding his contacts on the www. Yet, it is still unclear to me if it is possible to track players and contacts via online gaming which is connected thru cable and phone companies . Meaning....I know that computers provide a 'footprint' of online activities, but is there a way to track 'contacts' if the gaming system is connected thru a DSL or cable line? All MOO.

Thinking of Tom and Shirlee today.

wm

waltzingmatilda
09-26-2010, 01:35 PM
I do think the way people are getting killed off and go missing in this country left and right, we are going to have to hold our policing systems to higher standards. I think statistics on solved and unsolved cases need to be put in front of the public's eyes on a consistent basis. If a county has a higher percentage than the average, hold them accountable and replace the department heads responsible for solving these crimes. I realize it is impossible to expect all crimes to be solved, but it honestly seems like they used to solve a much higher percentage than they do now, even with DNA.

The media makes us much more aware of what's going on in this world these days.

~above BBM respectfully~

YD, I agree with you regarding setting higher standards for LEA's. However, in their defense, it seems to me that the number of crimes has risen drastically while the number of LEO's and funding hasn't caught up with the number of crimes committed. JMO.

There is a thread here of a case solved recently where a 13 year old girl was murdered in 1996. The (dumb) perp was recently arrested on a drug charge and swabbed for DNA. The popo ran the DNA and it matched DNA collected in this young girl's murder 14 years later. This gives me hope that Tom and Shirlee's killer will make a (dumb) mistake some day and the case will be solved thru DNA. (there had to be something left behind in this brutal crime scene, MOO)

OT I also hold out hope that DNA evidence will eventually connect a perp to our girls who were gunned down in OK.

Remembering Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman on this Sunday afternoon.

all MOO

wm

YellowDog
09-27-2010, 11:58 AM
~above BBM respectfully~

YD, I agree with you regarding setting higher standards for LEA's. However, in their defense, it seems to me that the number of crimes has risen drastically while the number of LEO's and funding hasn't caught up with the number of crimes committed. JMO.

There is a thread here of a case solved recently where a 13 year old girl was murdered in 1996. The (dumb) perp was recently arrested on a drug charge and swabbed for DNA. The popo ran the DNA and it matched DNA collected in this young girl's murder 14 years later. This gives me hope that Tom and Shirlee's killer will make a (dumb) mistake some day and the case will be solved thru DNA. (there had to be something left behind in this brutal crime scene, MOO)

OT I also hold out hope that DNA evidence will eventually connect a perp to our girls who were gunned down in OK.

Remembering Tom Hunter and Shirlee Sherman on this Sunday afternoon.

all MOO

wm

I think DNA is a great tool for solving crimes, but it is not always available.

There are more crimes today because there are more people and I don't know whether the percentage of police per number of residents has kept up or not.
It would be interesting to know some of these ratios.

It just blows my mind how a savage murder can occur in broad daylight in a well inhabited neighborhood and go unsolved. Either this was one of the smartest killers on the planet or Omaha LE is simply not revealing ANY clues to the public which might help solve the murders.

I wonder if the front, back and side doors to the residence were locked when the father came home. Did any of the immediate neighbors hear anything unusual? How many saw the SUV and the reported stranger enter the house?
How many saw him leave the residence? What was the father's usual time to arrive home in the afternoon? Did any neighbors see Tom arrive home from school and enter the house? Did Tom enter the house alone? What position were the bodies in when LE arrived? Had the father moved either one of the victims? Why was AMW not allowed to film an episode about these crimes?

Snick1946
09-27-2010, 05:04 PM
YD, this guy was smart, but not that smart. I think what we have here is a combination of LE not revealing what they know- probably for good reasons- and an unwillingness to push the investigation into areas that may create discomfort for Creighton or other local community leaders.
I have asked persons I have been in contact with about the doors, etc and am assured they would have been locked. I think it is no secret that Shirlee's son has posted in this discussion and insists his mom never left a door unlocked or open, or even would have answered the doorbell. From what I know neighbors casually noted Tom exiting from the bus that day and walking to the door. I assume he had either a key or a passcode to get in. I doubt the perp was already there, Tom had a half eaten snack on a plate on the table when his body was found. Of course if the perp was there to meet Shirlee he could have walked in on them but I sort of doubt she'd make him a sandwich or that he would have while an argument was taking place.
Shirlee was found in a hallway near the kitchen. Evidence is that she may have been attacked suddenly, from behind. Tom was sprawled on the DR floor, both had knives protruding from their throats. Tom's dad found him and as a doctor probably realized his son was gone. I would assume he would have known not to disturb the evidence. He came home at the usual time that day.
The AMW matter is what tells me something is hinky. Wouldn't you think they'd have wanted the widest possible input on this but they didnt. Almost from the start it is as if someone wanted this case to go away.
Anyone reading this thread is free to form their own conclusions. I have formed a few but for reasons I don't think should be gone into on a public forum won't post them. Shirlee's family needs to start raising hell on this thing.

YellowDog
09-27-2010, 05:59 PM
If there is a Creighton connection to this crime, the newspaper and TV must be privy to something we don't know. What's to keep them from interviewing the neighbors who claim to have seen a man enter the house after Tom got home? What's to keep them from printing simulated drawings of the crime scene? It's like the whole town is avoiding these crimes. If the victims had been celebrities, the news would have been on this case non-stop. Why aren't these survivors after LE like Natalie Holloway's mother (although I think she went overboard)?

I just can't convince myself that some hired assassin came to town, stabbed two innocent victims and then vanished into thin air. It just doesn't compute for me.
And neither does the murder/suicide of Dr. Anderson and his wife.

Sin City
09-28-2010, 11:18 PM
/Cold Case Homicide Playing Cards

Is there anyone in this thread who has experience with giving anonymous tips, or anyone connected to LE, who can assure me that I will remain anonymous, If I submit a tip regarding one of the cold cases?

If the person were to get any knowledge from LE, or his attorney regarding who placed the tip, or just my location even - myself & my family will be in fear of their lives.

This person and his associates are extremely dangerous, and have extensive criminal backgrounds. I am valid to be in fear.

I know what the right thing to do is, yet I have to protect myself & my loved ones.

thesaint
09-29-2010, 05:14 AM
I assume (and hope, for you and your family's sake) the information you have is not in relation to this case. Because if it is, you've possibly already said too much.

Sounds like you believe others besides you (specifically, your family) would be endangered by you providing the information you have and your identity being found out.

Short answer: don't do it.

Don't endanger your family to provide information on a cold case. If it were just you (or me, in my case), I'd say it's your call. (I'd provide the info if it were me AND ONLY me in danger were my identity revealed.)

But it doesn't seem like a good way to go for you to put others in danger to provide such information, especially your family.

If you stumble upon a bullet-proof way to do it, don't. Unless you're satisfied it's double bullet-proof, even then, look at your family and think about it long and hard.

At least slow down and think clearly about it. The information you possess probably doesn't have a sell-by date.

waltzingmatilda
09-29-2010, 05:39 AM
Sin City, If you do decide to call in an anonymous tip, I suggest you purchase a 'bat phone' from which to make the call and for any future communication wtih LE. I understand your hesitance and mistrust of LE. Unfortunately, there are some bad cops and corruption in many LEA and there's no way of knowing the good ones from the bad ones.
I don't like feeling that way because I want to think all cops are good folks who have taken an oath to serve and protect. Sadly, that's not always true in the real world.

Snick1946, may be better able to advise you than myself as he has more experience with giving tips than I do.

My thoughts/prayers are with you as you reckon with this information which weighs heavily on your soul.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
09-29-2010, 10:30 AM
I agree with TheSaint. If you have information that you are unsure about submitting you are welcome to contact any of the regulars on this thread via Personal Message and we can better advise you out of sight of the public.
I don't know if you refer to this case- if so please do contact me as I have some 'back door' resources I may be able to put you in touch with; and be careful about posting too much on this thread. Some of us have concluded long ago that the killer or killers is probably reading our posts.
I don't know if an anonymous letter would be taken seriously by LE but that may be the safest. Good luck with whatever you decide and be careful.

omaha
09-29-2010, 01:59 PM
I agree with TheSaint. If you have information that you are unsure about submitting you are welcome to contact any of the regulars on this thread via Personal Message and we can better advise you out of sight of the public.
I don't know if you refer to this case- if so please do contact me as I have some 'back door' resources I may be able to put you in touch with; and be careful about posting too much on this thread. Some of us have concluded long ago that the killer or killers is probably reading our posts.
I don't know if an anonymous letter would be taken seriously by LE but that may be the safest. Good luck with whatever you decide and be careful.

Totally agree with Snick about WS.

Will also say: Go through someone else. I do think letters and emails are fairly easily traced — though you could send a note to a victim with your reasoning. Best is to get a disposable phone, and get a personal recommendation on which police officer to phone. Don't give your name. Could also call a reporter who has had their name on stories about the case. You could give them enough information to verify without giving your ID. Journalists can't be forced to give their sources. There are good cops, but get a personal recommendation from someone who knows the difference.

Sin City
09-29-2010, 11:14 PM
I agree with TheSaint. If you have information that you are unsure about submitting you are welcome to contact any of the regulars on this thread via Personal Message and we can better advise you out of sight of the public.
I don't know if you refer to this case- if so please do contact me as I have some 'back door' resources I may be able to put you in touch with; and be careful about posting too much on this thread. Some of us have concluded long ago that the killer or killers is probably reading our posts.
I don't know if an anonymous letter would be taken seriously by LE but that may be the safest. Good luck with whatever you decide and be careful.

Thank you so much to everyone who responded to my recent post. The case I'm referring to is not the Omaha Double Murders, but another cold case.

Unfortunately I do not have any LE contacts in Omaha. Nor do I have anyone that I know that has any contacts within OPD, or Nebraska State Patrol.

This has been on my mind for days. Heavy stuff indeed.

YellowDog
10-01-2010, 12:58 PM
Thank you so much to everyone who responded to my recent post. The case I'm referring to is not the Omaha Double Murders, but another cold case.

Unfortunately I do not have any LE contacts in Omaha. Nor do I have anyone that I know that has any contacts within OPD, or Nebraska State Patrol.

This has been on my mind for days. Heavy stuff indeed.

You gave me hope for awhile that someone out there knew something about this case.

Have you considered consulting with an attorney about the information you know?

Sin City
10-02-2010, 12:29 AM
You gave me hope for awhile that someone out there knew something about this case.

Have you considered consulting with an attorney about the information you know?

YellowDog, Good point regarding consulting an attorney. Still thinking long and hard about submitting my tip in regard to this other cold case.

waltzingmatilda
10-04-2010, 02:55 PM
YellowDog, Good point regarding consulting an attorney. Still thinking long and hard about submitting my tip in regard to this other cold case.

Sin City, Just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts.

~Giving the thread a bump to page one in hopes of generating discussion.~

My apologies to everyone for my absence of late. My laptop crashed :waitasec:

wm

YellowDog
10-05-2010, 03:24 PM
I was googling this case today to see if there was any news, but nothing since the Playing Cards came out.

One thing that sticks out to me is the neighbor who said Thomas got off the bus wearing shorts. It seems like it would be way too cold for shorts on March 13th in Omaha. I wonder what the temperature was that day. The reported suspect was wearing a long coat.

Did anyone else pick up on this?

Snick1946
10-06-2010, 10:15 AM
I was googling this case today to see if there was any news, but nothing since the Playing Cards came out.

One thing that sticks out to me is the neighbor who said Thomas got off the bus wearing shorts. It seems like it would be way too cold for shorts on March 13th in Omaha. I wonder what the temperature was that day. The reported suspect was wearing a long coat.

Did anyone else pick up on this?

That day was unseasonably warm in Omaha. I remember being out on business over lunch in my shirtsleeves.
Kids here often wear shorts to school even on chilly days. School buildings tend to be overheated in Winter.
I wonder if the POI's long coat was partly to conceal something? Or do we even know it was a long coat, descriptions say it was a 'dark' coat. I always envisioned it as a short jacket.

waltzingmatilda
10-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Hi everyone! Hope all is well. My computer is still down so my sleuthing time is limited.

I don't recall ever hearing whether the perp's black coat was a jacket/short coat or a long coat. I only recall a black coat. However, my own son wore shorts to school many times during the winter months. But we are on the SE coast so the weather here is different from Omaha. I would object to my son's attire on cold days, but his argument was that those 'old teachers' are cold natured and keep the classroom too hot for him to concentrate on his schoolwork. It is what is is with these youngsters nowadays.

Anyway, you all keep up the good work here and I'll check in when I can......

wm

YellowDog
10-06-2010, 05:19 PM
That day was unseasonably warm in Omaha. I remember being out on business over lunch in my shirtsleeves.
Kids here often wear shorts to school even on chilly days. School buildings tend to be overheated in Winter.
I wonder if the POI's long coat was partly to conceal something? Or do we even know it was a long coat, descriptions say it was a 'dark' coat. I always envisioned it as a short jacket.

This article says the stranger wore a black coat and carried a briefcase.

http://www.ratemds.com/social/?q=node/32927

This one says he wore a black suit and had a satchel over his shoulder.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.true-crime/2010-03/msg00536.html

So, how do we really know what he wore and whether he had a satchel
or a briefcase?

Nothing seems to be clear on this case.

colette
10-06-2010, 05:31 PM
Over the shoulder satchel reminds me of something like a laptop bag. He could he placed knives in there.

Snick1946
10-07-2010, 10:10 AM
Over the shoulder satchel reminds me of something like a laptop bag. He could he placed knives in there.

Maybe he actually had a laptop computer in there. If this crime was a spur of the moment thing maybe he was there on business and had the computer with him, maybe to check out a file or something that one of the victims was offering him?
The vagueness of his attire in official OPD news releases is disturbing to me. It suggests that LE either didn't try to pull all this together or didn't care as maybe they thought this was a break in gone wrong and would be resolved in a few days anyway.

YellowDog
10-07-2010, 03:13 PM
Maybe he actually had a laptop computer in there. If this crime was a spur of the moment thing maybe he was there on business and had the computer with him, maybe to check out a file or something that one of the victims was offering him?
The vagueness of his attire in official OPD news releases is disturbing to me. It suggests that LE either didn't try to pull all this together or didn't care as maybe they thought this was a break in gone wrong and would be resolved in a few days anyway.


Everything about this case has been VAGUE from day one. The only thing we know for sure is that two people were brutally slain in broad daylight in a home in an affluent populated area of Omaha.

Great reporting, Omaha

YellowDog
10-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Maybe he actually had a laptop computer in there. If this crime was a spur of the moment thing maybe he was there on business and had the computer with him, maybe to check out a file or something that one of the victims was offering him?
The vagueness of his attire in official OPD news releases is disturbing to me. It suggests that LE either didn't try to pull all this together or didn't care as maybe they thought this was a break in gone wrong and would be resolved in a few days anyway.

Or maybe he had something very incriminating in that satchel or briefcase.
I haven't totally ruled out a blackmail attempt of some sort.

Sin City
10-08-2010, 01:52 AM
Maybe he actually had a laptop computer in there. If this crime was a spur of the moment thing maybe he was there on business and had the computer with him, maybe to check out a file or something that one of the victims was offering him?
The vagueness of his attire in official OPD news releases is disturbing to me. It suggests that LE either didn't try to pull all this together or didn't care as maybe they thought this was a break in gone wrong and would be resolved in a few days anyway.

To anyone's knowledge do any of the media reports indicate that this man was wearing gloves? Did anyone see him put gloves on, or see him at the Hunter's door? Maybe this is something that LE is holding back.

If neighbors, or whomever they were, saw him driving around, and walking in the neighborhood did this neighbor(s) watch this person to see where he went, and what he was up to. If the neighbor (s) watched him this much to know that he seemed lost wouldn't they have watched to see if he knocked on someone's door, and the folks in the home actually helped him, or let him in?

Does this make sense? A stranger is driving as if lost, and then seen walking in the neighborhood. He wasn't watched? Or, anyone say, "Hey, can I help you?"

For example, yesterday my husband said to me, "What's that guy doing walking along our street writing down house numbers?" I said, "He's knocking on doors asking if home owners want their house numbers painted on the curb." He knocked on our door a few days ago, and I declined his service. But, you can bet I watched him to see if he knocked on other neighbor's doors. He wasn't driving a car, and carried a backpack. I didn't see any other evidence of his working supplies. I haven't seen him actually painting any numbers, but I've seen him around town a few times with the backpack.

Snick1946
10-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Here is one thing I will throw out for what it's worth. Your post reminded me of some earlier speculation that the POI seen walking through yards, looking for addresses, etc may not have had connection with the crime at all. He could have been someone like the guy you described, maybe offering to paint addresses, do yard work etc. It was the time of the year that we usually see those guys. From his description he may well have been someone here illegally and rather than get into hot water, just vanished without coming forward to clear things up.
It has never seemed likely to me that Shirlee would have just opened the door to someone she didnt know. Her son posted on here some time ago that this was not something she'd do. Either the POI was not who everyone thought he was or... he was there to see Tom who mayhave known he was coming. Or, he could have been someone known to the victims.
I'd love to know if the Hunters had any security system, a voice box maybe for callers to ID themselves?

YellowDog
10-08-2010, 11:23 AM
I've always questioned in my own mind the witness who saw the stranger and saw him enter the house. Could the neighbor have been purposely pointing the finger at someone who didn't exist to divert the attention away from himself or herself? Could the killer have actually been someone from right there in the area? For some reason, I still want to connect this to the Andersons demise. Was the witness a man, woman, teenager or who? We don't know. There were burglaries in the Anderson case and burglaries in the vicinity of the Hunter home.

waltzingmatilda
10-08-2010, 12:37 PM
Hi everybody! Interesting discussion.......I have a few comments FWIW....

Sin City, I have also wondered about the perp wearing gloves. It seems to me that there should be a fingerprint on the doorbell if he wasn't wearing them. However, i do not know if the Hunter home even has a doorbell. It seems to me that this perp 'knew' when Tom would be having his afternoon snack in the upstairs dining room and arrived at a time when he knew Tom would answer the door. MOO

Snick1946, If the mysterious dark skinned man was going door to door seeking odd jobs then IMO neighbors would have reported these visits to LE. That makes sense to me anyway. Of course, we have no way of knowing. However, I did hear a RUMOR that missionaries were visiting homes in Dundee in the days prior to the murders. That is only RUMOR, I'd like to make that clear for everyone.

YellowDog, You may be right about the perp being someone in the neighborhood and I admire you for standing by your opinion after all this time. You got me to thinking about the grouchy old bus driver in FL who went out to confront skateboarders in a park across the street from his house and he weilded a gun and went out to confront them and ended up fatally shooting a dad in front of his own daughter.

This leads to my curiosity of Tom's movements throughout the Dundee neighborhood. Did he skate? Did he have friends in the neighborhood who he visited? Did he cut through neighbors yards as a shortcut to visit friends? did he step on someone's flower bed..... taunt someone's dog......accidentally see something he shouldn't have (burglary?), etc., in his neighborhood travels? You have offered a whole new perspective, my friend!

Maybe LE needs to go back to the beginning and review the notes from the initial interviews and see if something stands out. And also question Tom's friends again who he probably would have shared if there was something going on with a neighbor that made him uncomfortable.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
10-08-2010, 02:11 PM
WM, I can confirm those rumors. Without telling too much about how I know, there were Jehovah Wittness' missionaries going through that area as late as that afternoon. In fact, some of them on their own contacted LE after the killings to report seeing suspicious activity about a block from the Hunter home. This was something that would not have been reported were it not for the fact of the killings and they then felt it had some signifigance. Have to be careful here, but it involved a sighting of two men, apparently in different cars, talking on cell phones. I dont know what if anything ever came of it.
The POI was seen starting and stopping. I would like to visit that area perhaps this weekend to check out a theory. Are the addresses painted on curbside? Could this POI have been looking to see if anyone needed their address repainted?

waltzingmatilda
10-08-2010, 03:53 PM
WM, I can confirm those rumors. Without telling too much about how I know, there were Jehovah Wittness' missionaries going through that area as late as that afternoon. In fact, some of them on their own contacted LE after the killings to report seeing suspicious activity about a block from the Hunter home. This was something that would not have been reported were it not for the fact of the killings and they then felt it had some signifigance. Have to be careful here, but it involved a sighting of two men, apparently in different cars, talking on cell phones. I dont know what if anything ever came of it.
The POI was seen starting and stopping. I would like to visit that area perhaps this weekend to check out a theory. Are the addresses painted on curbside? Could this POI have been looking to see if anyone needed their address repainted?

Snick, thanks for the info.

Sooo...Let's say the 'missionaries' were actually 'posers' who were actually casing houses in the neighborhood for thieving. Did these 'missionaries' pass out any flyers in the neighborhood? If so, from where did the flyers originate?

Can you elaborate on the suspicous activity one block from the Hunter home? No pressure...I am nosy. The reported 'two men in different cars talking on cell phones' intrigues me.

Your question regarding the POI soliciting addresses to be repainted is interesting. I had not thought of anything like that!

Please keep us posted! MOO

wm

YellowDog
10-08-2010, 06:22 PM
WM, I can confirm those rumors. Without telling too much about how I know, there were Jehovah Wittness' missionaries going through that area as late as that afternoon. In fact, some of them on their own contacted LE after the killings to report seeing suspicious activity about a block from the Hunter home. This was something that would not have been reported were it not for the fact of the killings and they then felt it had some signifigance. Have to be careful here, but it involved a sighting of two men, apparently in different cars, talking on cell phones. I dont know what if anything ever came of it.
The POI was seen starting and stopping. I would like to visit that area perhaps this weekend to check out a theory. Are the addresses painted on curbside? Could this POI have been looking to see if anyone needed their address repainted?

Snick, I think if the suspect was going door to door in the neighborhood there would be a more defined description of him.

I think I stated this before but when my cleaning lady is at my house, she will not answer the door or the telephone. She will just let the bell ring and ignore the door and/or the phone.

I'd like to know who stated that Shirlee Sherman answered the door. How could they tell from another property who answered the door? They must have very good eyesight.

I would also like to know what was taken in the burglaries around the Hunter home and what was taken from the Anderson home. It could have been something as small as a prescription pad since both homes were owned by doctors. If it was a desperate durg addict, he would be looking for the quickest method to obtain his next fix. He would want money, something he could pawn or sell quickly or a prescription even if he had to write it himself.

Snick1946
10-11-2010, 12:02 PM
In a heavily discussed case such as this, it sometimes is helpful to go back and re-read some of the early posts. Sometimes things get overlooked or did not seem important at the time that later are.
I was looking at the early posts in the original thread. There is a long article that was pasted I believe from the World Herald early right after the killings. In that article it is alleged that wittnesses saw the POI on the front porch of the Hunter home. It still doesnt say anyone saw him enter but this sounds at least like we may have been correct in thinking someone let him in via the front door. Given what we know from Shirlee's family this would fit with her not leaving the back door open or unlocked.
It would also lead me to think that the perp was there to see Tom, not Shirlee. Also the article refers to 'multiple' wounds to the victim's necks. This was a detail I'd not noted before. Sounds a bit less like the clinical crime scene some had spoken of.

waltzingmatilda
10-11-2010, 12:40 PM
In a heavily discussed case such as this, it sometimes is helpful to go back and re-read some of the early posts. Sometimes things get overlooked or did not seem important at the time that later are.
I was looking at the early posts in the original thread. There is a long article that was pasted I believe from the World Herald early right after the killings. In that article it is alleged that wittnesses saw the POI on the front porch of the Hunter home. It still doesnt say anyone saw him enter but this sounds at least like we may have been correct in thinking someone let him in via the front door. Given what we know from Shirlee's family this would fit with her not leaving the back door open or unlocked.
It would also lead me to think that the perp was there to see Tom, not Shirlee. Also the article refers to 'multiple' wounds to the victim's necks. This was a detail I'd not noted before. Sounds a bit less like the clinical crime scene some had spoken of.

Snick1946, I tend to agree with you. The murderer had the whole day to try and gain entry into the Hunter home but he waited until Tom returned home from school. Why? Did this person know somehow that Shirlee would not answer the door but Tom would?

What little evidence we have points toward Tom either being the intended target or.....his presence being used by the perp to gain entry into the home. but , since there was no burglary committed, what would be the point of that?

Thanks for noting the 'multiple wounds to the victims necks'. Thinking back to my teaching days, what is the difination of 'multiple'?......multiples of 2?
5?.....10? Sure wish we had more info.

My intentions of this post are in no way meant as disrepectful to Tom.

MOO

wm

omaha
10-11-2010, 01:54 PM
Snick1946, I tend to agree with you. The murderer had the whole day to try and gain entry into the Hunter home but he waited until Tom returned home from school. Why? Did this person know somehow that Shirlee would not answer the door but Tom would?

What little evidence we have points toward Tom either being the intended target or.....his presence being used by the perp to gain entry into the home. but , since there was no burglary committed, what would be the point of that?

Thanks for noting the 'multiple wounds to the victims necks'. Thinking back to my teaching days, what is the difination of 'multiple'?......multiples of 2?
5?.....10? Sure wish we had more info.

My intentions of this post are in no way meant as disrepectful to Tom.

MOO

wm

I agree. One thing that really bugs me though. Why that day? Was it just bad luck that they were both there? If the killer was casing the house, why try to enter on the day that the housekeeper was there? And not a day that Tom was alone?

So frustrating. I find the rumor about people in cars with phones interesting. I hope the police are going back through all those early interviews at least once a week!

waltzingmatilda
10-15-2010, 12:12 PM
I agree. One thing that really bugs me though. Why that day? Was it just bad luck that they were both there? If the killer was casing the house, why try to enter on the day that the housekeeper was there? And not a day that Tom was alone?

So frustrating. I find the rumor about people in cars with phones interesting. I hope the police are going back through all those early interviews at least once a week!

I hope so too Omaha. i also hope they go back and reconduct interviews with a new set of eyes. Sometimes, others will pick up on something that wasn't originally suspicious. (Thinking of a case in my area where an FBI secretary was murdered and it was solved a few years later, after a new set of eyes looked at it. Their perp was a neighbor who was interviewed in the beginning of the investigation)

I found a post on another forum here where a fellow sleuth shares an online gaming experience. I found it very insightful since I am not a gamer. chilling too!

It is post #140.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89163&page=6

OT my 'puter is still down so my time sleuthing/researching is limited. Hope all of you are doing well. Thanks to all for contributions and keeping the thread current.

wm

omaha
10-15-2010, 05:36 PM
You know what's scary. I remember the Police saying pretty early on that the sketch was of a person of interest, who might be able to shed light on the murder. Not a suspect. Of course it could be, but there was that theory that maybe they were a witness. I wonder who else could have done it if not the "olive-skinned" man. Sorry, just another questions that gets us further away from solving this.

waltzingmatilda
10-15-2010, 07:01 PM
You know what's scary. I remember the Police saying pretty early on that the sketch was of a person of interest, who might be able to shed light on the murder. Not a suspect. Of course it could be, but there was that theory that maybe they were a witness. I wonder who else could have done it if not the "olive-skinned" man. Sorry, just another questions that gets us further away from solving this.

Oh it is scary! The reason I feel this way is because I have been suspicious about the dark skinned man and his role in this crime. My suspicions lead me to consider various theories. First, I have considered the possibility that the dark skinned man arrived after the murders took place and could have aided and abetted after the fact. Perhaps a call from a friend to bring a change of clothes to such and such adress. Could the actual killer have answered the door when the dark skinned man came a knockin to 'help' his friend'?

If the D.S.M walked into the crime scene without knowledge of knowing what awaited, and has no priors, nor is criminally minded, he may never talk. He would rightfully be afraid. This may have not been any of his doing......yet he was sucked into this ugly mess while trying to help out a friend.

Hope this makes sense. Just additional questions/theories.......

I sure hope OPD hasn't given up....I haven't seen any news updates in awhile.

MOO......wm

YellowDog
10-17-2010, 02:51 PM
That's an interesting theory WM. The killer could have even come into the house after the family left but before the housekeeper arrived.

Still there were no signs of burglary that we know about so that would seem to make it a premeditated crime. This could include a hired killer or even a serial killer.

Snick1946
10-18-2010, 03:35 PM
Here is a snip from an article that appeared 3-18-08 on the WOWT website:

'A man fitting the description in the sketch, wearing a suit and carrying a briefcase, was seen walking up to the door of the home.'

Note that it says a SUIT, not a coat, trenchcoat or whatever. I am still not 100% sure about this but after research I'd say it's likely the guy was wearing a dark two piece suit. The day was unseasonably warm so I doubt a coat was being worn. This guy was either there on business of some kind or was - more likely- trying to appear as if he were. This would still suggest a hit to me.

I have done a little reading about serial killers. I think sometimes they are people who are stuck at some point in their mental past and keep repeating a pattern in their killings. I would wonder what LE has been able to find about similar killings of children Tom's age along with someone that the perp could be assuming was their mother? Maybe this is some tape this guy keeps playing in his head, who knows.

If this was a serial thing the crime probably makes perfect sense to the perp, he was able to justify it. To normal people his crime brands him as a coward.
If he was a hired killer, that's just as bad. From what I know a lot of hit men will not kill a child. He's a low life.

Snick1946
10-18-2010, 03:39 PM
You know what's scary. I remember the Police saying pretty early on that the sketch was of a person of interest, who might be able to shed light on the murder. Not a suspect. Of course it could be, but there was that theory that maybe they were a witness. I wonder who else could have done it if not the "olive-skinned" man. Sorry, just another questions that gets us further away from solving this.

You mean that maybe the POI walked in on a murder either during or afterward? Then fled. The perp could have been there in the house when Shirlee arrived altho I think the attack came after she started cleaning and after Tom arrived as she evidently made him a snack. Just speculation.

YellowDog
10-19-2010, 05:11 PM
I read somewhere that Tom was involved in extracurricular activities at school and one of them was a Geography Bee. Is that like a spelling bee where the student is asked a question about geography and must answer correctly to progress?

Does anyone know what other activities he was involved in? Soccer, swimming, art. slateboarding, gymnastics???? If we knew that we might be able to determine where he
could have hung out after school.

Snick1946
10-21-2010, 01:34 PM
One of our other members has suggested there may be some interest for participants in this thread in reading about the Karen Jenkins disappearence here in Omaha:

http://www.omaha.com/article/20101021/NEWS97/710219836/0

Karen was involved in developing online courses for Creighton. No doubt no connection exists but it does raise a question of whether someone may possibly be targeting CU staff?

omaha
10-21-2010, 03:17 PM
One of our other members has suggested there may be some interest for participants in this thread in reading about the Karen Jenkins disappearence here in Omaha:

http://www.omaha.com/article/20101021/NEWS97/710219836/0

Karen was involved in developing online courses for Creighton. No doubt no connection exists but it does raise a question of whether someone may possibly be targeting CU staff?

Thanks very much for sharing this! I somehow totally missed this in the paper.

On first read, my immediate thought was it being another North Omaha missing person. I hope she's OK. The Creighton connection seemed unimportant.

But the idea that everything could be tied to Creighton is very interesting. The Andersens didn't work at Creighton though, did they? I think he worked for the Workers Compensation Court for the state of Nebraska, which itself is pretty interesting.

I'd love to get someone inside the investigation's take on all of our open questions that we listed out. That will never happen, unfortunately…

Where did Shirlee live again?

Snick1946
10-21-2010, 03:27 PM
Thanks very much for sharing this! I somehow totally missed this in the paper.

On first read, my immediate thought was it being another North Omaha missing person. I hope she's OK. The Creighton connection seemed unimportant.

But the idea that everything could be tied to Creighton is very interesting. The Andersens didn't work at Creighton though, did they? I think he worked for the Workers Compensation Court for the state of Nebraska, which itself is pretty interesting.

I'd love to get someone inside the investigation's take on all of our open questions that we listed out. That will never happen, unfortunately…

Where did Shirlee live again?

I am just speaking off the top of my head- but, I am pretty sure that Mrs Andersen worked at Clarkson Hospital. I did hear one report that one of the people of interest in the Hunter murder may also have worked for a time at Clarkson but I cannot confirm that.
Shirlee lived I think a bit east of 72 and Blondo.
I suspect the currently missing woman's case has nothing to do with this one, she owned a bar and robbery may have been a motive but it just does seem strange.

omaha
10-21-2010, 04:06 PM
I am just speaking off the top of my head- but, I am pretty sure that Mrs Andersen worked at Clarkson Hospital. I did hear one report that one of the people of interest in the Hunter murder may also have worked for a time at Clarkson but I cannot confirm that.
Shirlee lived I think a bit east of 72 and Blondo.
I suspect the currently missing woman's case has nothing to do with this one, she owned a bar and robbery may have been a motive but it just does seem strange.

Thanks Snick!

Sorry for not being familiar, but where is Clarkson Hospital located?

Did we cover the people of interest in this thread? I think I missed this.

Is anyone living in Shirlee's home now? Is there a county assessor page for it like we had for the Hunter home?

Had Shirlee ever worked at a hospital, or been admitted to one as far as we know?

Did the Hunters ever work at Clarkson. Do doctors from one hospital work at other hospitals at the same time?

omaha
10-21-2010, 04:24 PM
You mean that maybe the POI walked in on a murder either during or afterward? Then fled. The perp could have been there in the house when Shirlee arrived altho I think the attack came after she started cleaning and after Tom arrived as she evidently made him a snack. Just speculation.

Or the POI had nothing to do with it, and the real perp was never seen nor linked to the crime. Perhaps they left before Dr. Hunter showed up, or after, before the police arrived. Perhaps they left through other yards / houses. Scary to think there is literally no place to start, as opposed to the very vague POI.

Snick1946
10-21-2010, 04:43 PM
Thanks Snick!

Sorry for not being familiar, but where is Clarkson Hospital located?

Did we cover the people of interest in this thread? I think I missed this.

Is anyone living in Shirlee's home now? Is there a county assessor page for it like we had for the Hunter home?

Had Shirlee ever worked at a hospital, or been admitted to one as far as we know?

Did the Hunters ever work at Clarkson. Do doctors from one hospital work at other hospitals at the same time?


Don't have an exact address, but Clarkson is located on 42d Street just south of Farnam, it would have been a short trip to work for Mrs Andersen.
No we didn't cover the POI's. OPD of course has not released anything on them and the POI's I had in mind were individuals that I have been made aware of through contacts. I don't want to mention names, etc in a public forum. If you are interested, send me a private message and I may be able to fill you in. Shirlee to my knowledge never worked at a hospital. Claire Hunter may have been certified to practice at Clarkson, if I can find out I will post that info.
Earlier in this discussion, perhaps in the first thread, I posted a copy from a comment an anonymous person left on 'True Crime Diary'. That person was wondering if Shirlee had ever taken dance lessons- they mentioned that the POI sketch strongly resembled an employee of a local dance studio who would have had access to a silver SUV. I sent a copy of that post via Crimestoppers to OPD and never heard back. Probably nothing to it, but...

omaha
10-21-2010, 04:58 PM
Don't have an exact address, but Clarkson is located on 42d Street just south of Farnam, it would have been a short trip to work for Mrs Andersen.
No we didn't cover the POI's. OPD of course has not released anything on them and the POI's I had in mind were individuals that I have been made aware of through contacts. I don't want to mention names, etc in a public forum. If you are interested, send me a private message and I may be able to fill you in. Shirlee to my knowledge never worked at a hospital. Claire Hunter may have been certified to practice at Clarkson, if I can find out I will post that info.
Earlier in this discussion, perhaps in the first thread, I posted a copy from a comment an anonymous person left on 'True Crime Diary'. That person was wondering if Shirlee had ever taken dance lessons- they mentioned that the POI sketch strongly resembled an employee of a local dance studio who would have had access to a silver SUV. I sent a copy of that post via Crimestoppers to OPD and never heard back. Probably nothing to it, but...

Thanks Snick. I'll send in a copy of the True Crime Diary post to CS and OPD as well, just in case.

Snick1946
10-21-2010, 10:53 PM
In case anyone missed it previously, here's a link to the comment on True Crime Diary from a poster back in January:

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=51&mode=comments#view

I posted this back on the first thread. It haunted me then and still does. although I am aware that most such leads come from people trying to be helpful but don't wind up going anywhere. The information this individual posted seems pretty specific and I could not coax more out of them. They seemed to have posted and then run away. I am not sure what the reference is to Primeamerica, the whole thing is strange. There cannot be too many dance studios in Omaha and LE could do worse than to check with them to see who they had employed back in March of 2008. If one of them left suddenly that might mean something.

Salem
10-21-2010, 11:09 PM
Here's a link to Primerica Financial Services: http://www.primerica.com/public/

Maybe the look alike works at the Omaha office? I couldn't find a link to all the locations?

Salem

YellowDog
10-22-2010, 12:46 PM
I was reading the True Crime Dary article again and this excerpt from the article stuck out at me. I know it's been discussed before.

It may be a coincidence, but the murders occurred exactly one week before Residency Match Day, the annual ritual on the third Thursday in March when graduating medical students learn at which hospitals they will train in their new specialties as residents.

It could be possible that one of the graduating medical students gained prior access to this list and discovered he was not on it so he sought revenge. And, like the article said, if he was a foreign student, he could have committed the crime just prior to leaving the country.

Since Karen Jenkins was involved in developing online courses for Creighton, could she have had access to the list through the computers at Creighton and been the source from whom a student obtained previous knowledge of the list? If this could be the case, the killer might be afraid of her divulging this information.

Just speculation on my part.

It's very interesting that she was employed by Creighton.

Snick1946
10-22-2010, 01:10 PM
The Law and Order episode based on these murders will air on TNT next week on 10-28 at 5PM ET, 4PM CT. I plan to tape it. I don't know what times will be for those in other zones so you may need to check your local listings.
I have been looking for this for awhile and wanted to share this. I think others will be interested. From what I know of the plot I think the killer turned out to be an old friend of the family. Bear in mind, this is ficton.

waltzingmatilda
10-26-2010, 09:55 AM
The Law and Order episode based on these murders will air on TNT next week on 10-28 at 5PM ET, 4PM CT. I plan to tape it. I don't know what times will be for those in other zones so you may need to check your local listings.
I have been looking for this for awhile and wanted to share this. I think others will be interested. From what I know of the plot I think the killer turned out to be an old friend of the family. Bear in mind, this is ficton.

Snick, thanks for the info. I will set my TIVO! I am enjoying reading the discussion by all of you here. My time has been limited lately so I haven't posted much.

Thank you all for keeping the torch burning for Tom and Shirlee!

wm

YellowDog
10-26-2010, 12:23 PM
Here's a link to Primerica Financial Services: http://www.primerica.com/public/

Maybe the look alike works at the Omaha office? I couldn't find a link to all the locations?

Salem

Do they work as a collection agency by any chance in the Omaha area?

Salem
10-26-2010, 01:00 PM
I have no idea. I was just working off the questions that the commentator made. I don't know if it really has anything to do with anything.

Salem

Snick1946
10-26-2010, 01:25 PM
Karen Jenkins' body was found a couple days ago, not far from where she vanished. Very little in local media about it- OPD is not talking much, as usual.

I wanted to share a brief passage from a book I have been reading, "Relentless Pursuit" by Kevin Flynn. He is a prosecuter in Washington DC and the book covers a double murder very similar to this one, here it is:

"Look at the way the victims were killed and you know whomever was responsible it was someone who knew either or both of them very well and hated one of them very much. Shootings are impersonal... but stabbings are personal. Getting so close to someone that blood is all over you.. that's personal. And personal killings are frequently planned ..brooded over, obsessed about, for hours and days and weeks before- which is why they're often carried out behind closed doors where no one else is around so the personal grudge can come to a private, final resolution."

omaha
10-26-2010, 02:50 PM
Karen Jenkins' body was found a couple days ago, not far from where she vanished. Very little in local media about it- OPD is not talking much, as usual.

I wanted to share a brief passage from a book I have been reading, "Relentless Pursuit" by Kevin Flynn. He is a prosecuter in Washington DC and the book covers a double murder very similar to this one, here it is:

"Look at the way the victims were killed and you know whomever was responsible it was someone who knew either or both of them very well and hated one of them very much. Shootings are impersonal... but stabbings are personal. Getting so close to someone that blood is all over you.. that's personal. And personal killings are frequently planned ..brooded over, obsessed about, for hours and days and weeks before- which is why they're often carried out behind closed doors where no one else is around so the personal grudge can come to a private, final resolution."

Making a lot of assumptions (which we have to do) about who the target was…

Perhaps they were targeting one of the two murdered, what does that tell us about the murderer?

Someone who could have hated an 11 year old boy, or a 57 year old housekeeper enough to plan and personally kill with a knife? Does that help us narrow our suspects at all? Assuming it was personal, and planned toward one of them -- instead of random, aimed at one of the families, a failed ransom / kidnapping, or a serial killer.

Snick1946
10-26-2010, 04:43 PM
Making a lot of assumptions (which we have to do) about who the target was…

Perhaps they were targeting one of the two murdered, what does that tell us about the murderer?

Someone who could have hated an 11 year old boy, or a 57 year old housekeeper enough to plan and personally kill with a knife? Does that help us narrow our suspects at all? Assuming it was personal, and planned toward one of them -- instead of random, aimed at one of the families, a failed ransom / kidnapping, or a serial killer.

I somehow think that unless this was a serial killer with no connection to either victim, then the hate was not directed toward Tom or Shirlee. It was directed to something they represented. Someone could have had hatred for the Hunter family or one of it's members, ditto for someone in Shirlee's family. My guess in this case would be that it was toward the boy's family. I say that because the Hunters were more prominent and moved in circles that could have harbored someone like this more easily. Someone with a mask of respectability, say- a friend of the family, a collegue. Someone who got passed over for a promottion at CU years before, perhaps even someone with ethical issues over something that may have been going on in the lab, who knows? In that case it was someone close to them, so close they do not suspect them. Someone who possibly is still in their lives and grieved with them. Killing their beloved child was meant to inflict pain on them.

Someone knew the schedule. They could have timed this to be when Claire was out of town. Either it was given to a hired killer or the person themselves knew when to strike.

omaha
10-26-2010, 06:13 PM
I somehow think that unless this was a serial killer with no connection to either victim, then the hate was not directed toward Tom or Shirlee. It was directed to something they represented. Someone could have had hatred for the Hunter family or one of it's members, ditto for someone in Shirlee's family. My guess in this case would be that it was toward the boy's family. I say that because the Hunters were more prominent and moved in circles that could have harbored someone like this more easily. Someone with a mask of respectability, say- a friend of the family, a collegue. Someone who got passed over for a promottion at CU years before, perhaps even someone with ethical issues over something that may have been going on in the lab, who knows? In that case it was someone close to them, so close they do not suspect them. Someone who possibly is still in their lives and grieved with them. Killing their beloved child was meant to inflict pain on them.

Someone knew the schedule. They could have timed this to be when Claire was out of town. Either it was given to a hired killer or the person themselves knew when to strike.

I totally agree Snick.

However, for the sake of the book you reference, I was curious in thoughts around who could be a suspect if those who were murdered were the intended targets of a personal, cold, calculated event, rather than as a message to either Shirlee's family or Tom's family.

YellowDog
10-26-2010, 11:22 PM
Could it have possibly had something to do with bullying? That is so common with teens of today. Could Tom have been bullying some kid at school or on the bus and the kid's father or big brother came after him? Or could Tom have possibly been bullied by other teens? I think it was something that had been festering for awhile. This is one reason I rule out "hired killer". I think a "hired killer" would have made sure his intended victim was alone.

omaha
10-27-2010, 09:29 AM
Could it have possibly had something to do with bullying? That is so common with teens of today. Could Tom have been bullying some kid at school or on the bus and the kid's father or big brother came after him? Or could Tom have possibly been bullied by other teens? I think it was something that had been festering for awhile. This is one reason I rule out "hired killer". I think a "hired killer" would have made sure his intended victim was alone.

Good thought, I think this has come up before. My immediate thoughts were perhaps someone from school (another kid, sibling of a friend, or a teacher). Was Tom's school in a bad neighborhood? If memory serves, it's not the best area.

YellowDog
10-27-2010, 10:47 AM
Another thought I've had........could Tom have been messaging back and forth with someone he originally thought to be a girl around his own age and in reality it was a gay male who became enraged and tracked him down after his overtures were rebuffed?

I do think whoever did this was not aware that there would be a cleaning lady there. I think she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It almost seems like Tom was having a snack in the dining room while waiting for someone to arrive.

waltzingmatilda
10-27-2010, 11:12 AM
Good thought, I think this has come up before. My immediate thoughts were perhaps someone from school (another kid, sibling of a friend, or a teacher). Was Tom's school in a bad neighborhood? If memory serves, it's not the best area.

I agree that the murderer was someone who was a 'peripheral' person in Tom's life. As much as I dislike thinking that an 11 year old child was the target of a double murder, I just can't get over the fact that the murders occured inside the Hunter residence as well as the time of day that the crime occured....It sounds to me like someone knew Tom's routine.

Bullying is certainly a possibility. As kids enter middle school, they are hesitant to talk about it from my experience raising children and also teaching 5th graders for years. When kids enter middle school, they meet new friends and are exposed to new situations. It is a step outside of the seemingly safer elementary school environment of a closer knit community. Luckily, my children did eventually come to me with their concerns, but only after the bullying had escalated to the point that they needed adult intervention.

I am not sure of the reputation of Tom's school location. Isn't King School a magnet school? In the area in which I live, magnet schools are located in 'not so great areas'. The magnet schools here are created to entice students of a higher socioeconomic status to high crime areas to utilize the school buildings in 'at risk' neighborhoods and to create diversity among student enrollment.

This is all MOO as always. Hope you all are doing well.

wm

omaha
10-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Another thought I've had........could Tom have been messaging back and forth with someone he originally thought to be a girl around his own age and in reality it was a gay male who became enraged and tracked him down after his overtures were rebuffed?

I do think whoever did this was not aware that there would be a cleaning lady there. I think she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It almost seems like Tom was having a snack in the dining room while waiting for someone to arrive.

I find this quite likely, if we follow the thinking of that book. And hope I'm wrong.

YellowDog
10-27-2010, 06:01 PM
If the olive skinned stranger was in his early 30's he would be about the right age to have a child Tom's age. If he was a foreigner, perhaps the kids, including Tom, were making fun of his child because of an accent or doing things differently than we do in America or even dressing differently.

I think the reason the killer used a knife (and I think he brought his own weapons) is because it would be much harder to trace a knife type from a wound than to trace a gun type from a bullet fragment. It would be very easy to throw knives into a river or a lake somewhere and never be found. No killer who pre-plans a murder is going to take his chances on finding the right weapon in the house of his victim.

omaha
10-27-2010, 06:12 PM
If the olive skinned stranger was in his early 30's he would be about the right age to have a child Tom's age. If he was a foreigner, perhaps the kids, including Tom, were making fun of his child because of an accent or doing things differently than we do in America or even dressing differently.

I think the reason the killer used a knife (and I think he brought his own weapons) is because it would be much harder to trace a knife type from a wound than to trace a gun type from a bullet fragment. It would be very easy to throw knives into a river or a lake somewhere and never be found. No killer who pre-plans a murder is going to take his chances on finding the right weapon in the house of his victim.

100% agree about the knives.

Wonder if Tom just mouthed off to the wrong person. Something really simple.

Snick1946
10-27-2010, 10:16 PM
100% agree about the knives.

Wonder if Tom just mouthed off to the wrong person. Something really simple.

This possibility was discussed a few times on the old thread. I have wondered if OPD really questioned Tom's schoolmates throughly. I would wonder about the other students on the bus- a parent of one of those would know when he'd be arriving home.
Tom has been I think fairly depicted as a generally nice kid. All kids have a dark side. Also people from different cultures sometimes misperceive things.
I think I mentioned that the knife killings might suggest someone of Middle Eastern origin.
It'd be interesting to know if there was any such student about that time whose parents took him or her out suddenly.
King Science Center is a magnet school and the area it is located in is not the best. They have a few lockdowns every year. That would also introduce the possibility of his running afoul of some other kid dealing drugs etc.
I'd like to think OPD checked out off this stuff at the time. I sure hope they did.

ShowerSinger
10-27-2010, 10:48 PM
As many thoughts as we all have had...
I keep coming back to the "Tom." School, or family connection. I still think it is a foreigner connection...for a lot of reasons. I know, I don't want to say too much, but I do think the father knows alot more than he is telling. I can only imagine the guilt, anyone involved in this feels. Perhaps enough to sign over any and all financial ownerships, as the guilt might make them feel partly responsible for this horrific crime. I am really not pointing fingers at any particular person, (ok, maybe) still it seems like a family coverup. I dunno. Just questioning...and seeing potential candidates for trouble, in an already troubled home life. It just seems too personal for a family member to not have their own suspicions...and they seem a bit too accepting to just let this go...??? Maybe I question too much...but I gotta wonder why/how they can be so accepting as to commision a statue, and not jump all over the media to solve this horrific crime. And, still go about their lives, and live in the same home that this happened.
JMHO, and that's it.
Praying for Justice

Snick1946
10-28-2010, 10:24 AM
This case is not the only unsolved one that OPD is IMO dropping the ball on. Here's a paste from an online article on the WOWT website about the disappearence of a family months ago:

"An Omaha family disappeared 10 months ago while working on their dream, fixing up a home to rent as apartments. The family's daughter spoke to the media Wednesday, worried that dream could be lost.

The Szczepanik family, Vanderlei and his wife and son, disappeared last December. Their daughter is worried the city will take their home.

“Because she sees the house and the potential of what her mom and father were trying to do to create apartments for low income families and she sees that the work was stopped and he couldn't finish it so she's sad when she comes over here,” said a translator for Tatiane Klein.

The home was scheduled for a trustee sale on Thursday, but the city postponed it for 30 days to consider other options.

Three people are in jail for charging $4,000 to the Szczepanik's credit cards. There is still no word on what happened to the family, though police suspect foul play"

I would bet my last dollar that, if asked, they'd refuse any help from AMW. They 'profit from crime', you know. The guys alluded to have been in jail for months. What is the problem?
Something just seems dysfunctional down there. Maybe this is typical for large cities these days but I don't think so. These people just can't seem to close the deal. Is there someone in the prosecuter's office with unrealistic requirements? Understaffing, what?

In a strange way it is comforting to realize that the case in this thread is not the only one going unresolved. It at least eases the feeling that something is being covered up.

waltzingmatilda
10-28-2010, 11:22 AM
Snick, I remember reading about this case. There's a thread for it here on WS. I remember reading some interesting comments from a blog in South America...... maybe Brazil?????

The number of unsolved cases in Omaha is amazing to me. OPD's relunctance to allow outside help makes me suspicious of what is going on in that dept. I wonder if there are existing practices in OPD that are worthy of hiding, or if it is indifference, or if it is simple pride on the part of LE. What is the ratio of crimes vs. LEO's? What is the amt of solved cases vs unsolved cases per year? I have so many questions and do not expect you to know the answers. I'm just trying to figure out for what reason OPD so quickly rejects offers of outside help. It's very discouraging.

Regarding the knives, I think the killer brought his own knives that he is familiar with to use to murder Tom and Shirlee. I think Knife killings are just as personal to the perpetrator as it is to the reason for the killing.....in other words, I feel the killer would use knives that are familiar to him. I base this opinion from being a former restaurant owner. To this day I prefer using my own knives because they are familiar to me. And my chef's brought their own personal set to work. The same would apply to someone who studies the martial arts.

So, what type of perp are we looking for? In the USA, knife killings are considered to be of a personal nature. (sorry no link). But is it the same in other cultures? Could it be that persons' of Middle Eastern or Asian descent use knives because it is a weapon that is more common and familiar/personal to their culture?

I am just trying to understand and figure out what type of perp we are looking for.

As always, this is all MOO.

wm

YellowDog
10-28-2010, 05:09 PM
http://www.statepatrol.nebraska.gov/MissingPersons/

Check out this link. This is unbelievable. There are 48 pages of missing people in Nebraska. I'm amazed at how many of them are teens.

Add these to the number of unsolved murders and it's pretty scary.

YellowDog
10-28-2010, 05:12 PM
You know if Tom was messaging or chatting with someone online on a fairly frequent basis, they would know when he would usually be home after school and probably know that his parents were at work. He might not have mentioned the housekeeper for fear they would consider he still had to have a babysitter.

waltzingmatilda
10-28-2010, 06:43 PM
You know if Tom was messaging or chatting with someone online on a fairly frequent basis, they would know when he would usually be home after school and probably know that his parents were at work. He might not have mentioned the housekeeper for fear they would consider he still had to have a babysitter.

YD, It seems to me that after all this time that LE has certainly investigated computer forensics inside and out. This could just be wishful thinking on my part and I really have no idea how long it takes.

The only conclusion that I can reach is that there is nothing at this point that points to Tom's online activities as a catalyst for murder. However, this is not to say that there could be chats or messages between Tom and someone who would not be a usual suspect which may not raise a red flag.

I am really beginning to suspect someone with connections to the Omaha school system who could have had access to Tom's personal information. Maybe someone who had something to hide that Tom knew about. Or, Like Omaha stated, it could have been something simple that Tom said or did that set someone off.

Recently, in my area, there was a Karate instructor who had an afterschool program and he picked up children after school in his work van. (I used to help load children in his van after school when I worked for the school system.) Anyway, this dude who many parents trusted with their children for after school care, was recently convicted of sex crimes against children!!!!!

YD, you have said all along that you think the perp is an Omaha local and I respect your stance. I am beginning to give a lot of thought and merit to your theory. I am just trying to think outside the box and consider persons local to Omaha who may have motive for these murders. Someone who would have known Tom's schedule..........

MOO

wm

YellowDog
10-28-2010, 07:03 PM
Who might know Tom's daily schedule?

Family
School Friends
Neighbors
Bus Drivers
Teachers
Coaches (if he participated in any sports)

The main reason I keep going to back to a local is because the crime seems to have been a crime of rage. Someone was very mad over something, but what?????

waltzingmatilda
10-28-2010, 08:41 PM
YD, I had a very thought provoking response to your post. However, this nasty weather is preventing a signal and I lost it. I'll respond when the weather clears. :)

ShowerSinger
10-28-2010, 08:45 PM
I truly don't know, but what about checking on real estate deals, done, or not done....
Also, I am WAY curious to know if either doctor prescribed ANY addictive drug...for whatever reason...
I only say that, as my ex prescribed pain reliever drugs, and we So often got phone calls to "elevate" the prescriptions, and such....And the patient(s) would sometimes go nutsy if it weren't refilled or magnidfied. I do know that we had a DEA number, and I do hope the detectives checked out the patients who had major drugs prescribed, from both doctors.

Snick1946
10-29-2010, 10:06 AM
Dr Hunter is a Patholoigist. I doubt he would have been prescribing drugs for his patients. :). His wife is a Cardiologist. I don't know much about that field, maybe someone can help us out here- would there ever be a case where someone practicing that specialty would be prescribing any pain meds? Of course we would assume OPD checked into that, but we just cannot be sure.

YellowDog
10-31-2010, 11:34 PM
Snick, I think if the wife did any heart surgery she would definitely be prescribing pain medication post surgery. I don't know whether all cardiologists are surgeons or not.

YellowDog
11-02-2010, 12:33 PM
www2.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/hunter_t.htm

I was relooking at articles covering these crimes and went back to look at the FBI page.

I found the last line in the article to be interesting.......the part where it says to contact the nearest American Embassy or Consulate. I wonder if this is normal practice or if they suspect someone from another country of these horrible crimes?

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

waltzingmatilda
11-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Hello YD, Great catch!!!! This makes me think that authorites suspect that the perp could be from a foreign country. Why else would this be included on the FBI site?

wm

YellowDog
11-02-2010, 01:30 PM
Hello YD, Great catch!!!! This makes me think that authorites suspect that the perp could be from a foreign country. Why else would this be included on the FBI site?

wm

I agree, WM. That does not seem like normal nomenclature that would be found on the cases on their files.

omaha
11-02-2010, 02:17 PM
www2.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/hunter_t.htm

I was relooking at articles covering these crimes and went back to look at the FBI page.

I found the last line in the article to be interesting.......the part where it says to contact the nearest American Embassy or Consulate. I wonder if this is normal practice or if they suspect someone from another country of these horrible crimes?

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

I think this is pretty standard for the FBI lists, if you look around the site. This has been up since for at least the last year. Wonder if they've gotten any tips.

Snick1946
11-03-2010, 10:58 AM
I had posted previously one idea that came to me several months ago- will reintroduce it.
If you Google Dr William Hunter you will bring up lots of articles about the crime, you also bring up some technical articles he wrote that are accessable online. These cover medical issues related to Pathology, some of them about blood work, etc. Pretty dull stuff for most of us.
I have wondered if some imbalanced person may have seen something or read something into a comment or research subject in one of those articles? Something that in their mind led them to think perhaps that Dr Hunter was advocating cloning, or some other controversial issue? Maybe someone with a chip on their shoulder about issues related to AIDS or abortion? How difficult would it have been for such a person to access the doctor's home address?
Did OPD ever go back through his postings online to determine this? I wonder if they have checked any files the FBI may have for known crazies on social issues or possibly even enviormental issues.
Such a person could have done the killings, then faded back into the woodwork. Just a thought.

YellowDog
11-03-2010, 12:55 PM
As a Pathologist, I wonder if Dr. Hunter had ever testified at a murder trial and, if so, was it for the prosecution or the defense and how long ago was it?

I still think though that if one of the doctors had been the intended victim, the killer would have killed them instead of their son and housekeeper.

omaha
11-03-2010, 02:42 PM
As a Pathologist, I wonder if Dr. Hunter had ever testified at a murder trial and, if so, was it for the prosecution or the defense and how long ago was it?

I still think though that if one of the doctors had been the intended victim, the killer would have killed them instead of their son and housekeeper.

This occurred to me as well. Although I'm sure OPD checked this early on, I would like to see a list of the cases he testified at. It seems more likely than his online activity from what I've been able to scan.

Snick1946
11-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Just for the record, there was some discussion awhile back about whether the curbsides in the Hunter neighborhood has street numbers painted on them. They don't. I was there this morning and no curbside numbers. I have been wondering if there was any kind of security system at the time of the crime, I sort of doubt it. When there today, I could not, at least from the sidewalk, see any keypad for entry nor any signs indicating a security system is in place.
One possibility I will throw out. There's been a lot of speculation how the perp got in. I wonder sometimes if the answer is simple; he had a key. One furnished him by someone who copied Shirlee's key or supplied him by someone close to the family. Murder may not have been intended in all this, perhaps the intent was to enter the house when no one was home and retreive something incriminating. He didnt count on Shirlee being there on a different day and may have had incorrect information about when Tom would be home. Or, the intent all along was to kill Tom- someone knew Tom would not answer the door when alone and supplied a key.
If I were investigating this thing, I would be taking another look at friends and family on both sides. Something about all the facts suggests that.

YellowDog
11-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Could the killer have entered through a basement window at the back of the house? If Tom had his computer in the basement, I'm assuming the basement was finished in the house. Maybe he had a friend over who unlocked a basement window when Tom was out of the room for something with the intention of coming back at another time to rob.

YellowDog
11-04-2010, 04:44 PM
Another thought I've had. Is there any possibility that Shirlee could have left the house to run an errand and was not there when the killer arrived, but returned, walked in through the back and was confronted by the killer?

Snick1946
11-05-2010, 09:52 AM
My understanding is that crime scene investigation indicted Shirlee was attacked from behind, taken by surprise. In other words, the perp crept up om her while was was cleaning. The perp could well have entered the house while she was out on an errand. Tom was in the basement playing his Xbox. I have seen several pics of Tom wearing ear pods or headphones; my guess is that he may well have been unable to hear anything going on upstairs.
I think there is still indication that the perp targeted that house specifically. He was seen apparently looking for an address.
BTW, when in the area yesterday I concluded that he must have parked just north of the house. Wittnesses later described the POI walking across yards, having parked up the street. There is just one house to the south of the Hunter home. Also there is a sharp bend in the street just to the north, so I think he parked just around that curve.
YD, your idea of someone having unfastened a basement window on a prior visit is credible. That would put this into the area of a botched robbery or break in. Perhaps a friend of Tom's who wanted to come back and steal his video game system? It also would mean the perp was perhaps quite young.

YellowDog
11-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Yes, I could see where Tom might have brought a school friend home to play video games. Possibly a friend who came from a poor family and was envious of the things Tom had and decided to come back and rob him.

If Shirlee did leave during the day to run an errand, the killer could have entered the house when no one was there and when he heard her come back, he quickly hid in a closet. She might have come back shortly after he entered before he had time to steal anything. She could have opened the closet door to put something away and discovered the killer. Maybe the knife was brought with him to use to gain entrance to the house.

So many possibilities exist.......

geojeffrey
11-06-2010, 04:05 PM
In regards to the socioeconomic status of the POI, Honda CRVs are not inexpensive. Chances are this individual had money and resources.

YellowDog
11-06-2010, 11:29 PM
True, but we're not sure the POI was the killer. If it was a schoolmate, he probably wouldn't be old enough to drive.

Snick1946
11-07-2010, 12:15 AM
I can't recall just where I ran across this idea, but will throw it out for what it is worth. Is it possible that the POI was driving a car that day that he got from a dealership for a purported 'test drive'? That would explain the odd license plate allegedly sighted- it was not a plate, but a dealer tag or card in the holder.
That would be a good cover for someone. I would wonder if OPD checked dealerships for this car in the area, there could be video of him if so.
I was told also by someone who should know that OPD did not check out auto rental agencies etc across the river in Council Bluffs.
This case is so strange on so many levels- at times it seems like a small scale version of the JFK murder. We may never know what happened.

Snick1946
11-10-2010, 11:34 AM
You may recall I'd mentioned the Law and Order episode that aired recently and based on this case. I watched and also taped it, here is my take on it:

If you are a fan of this series, as I am, this will not be one of your favorites. It just seemed lacking. It was evident after ten minutes who the cops were after and most of the time was spend closing the deal. The housekeeper in the story was there on a different day than usual as in real life. The boy however had brought a friend home from school but the friend left early. The boy was killed upstairs while doing homework. The perp turned up at the funeral and created a scene which put LE onto him.
Some of the similarities were evident- the boy had an X-box, etc. His parents were younger in the story.
I would be interested if anyone else has seen this episode and what your take on it was?

YellowDog
11-11-2010, 11:33 AM
Sorry, but I wasn't able to see it.

omaha
11-11-2010, 04:30 PM
http://www.omaha.com/article/20101111/NEWS97/311119925#crime-lab-s-outlook-threatened

Article about the Crime Lab. Doesn't inspire confidence.

Snick1946
11-15-2010, 11:53 AM
A 13 year old boy was murdered Friday night near here while alone at home:

Police say several people who witnessed Friday's shooting death of a 13-year-old boy in his Papillion home have given conflicting accounts of what happened.

Investigators are still trying to determine if the shooting was intentional or accidental. The gun used to kill Larenzo Hawkins has not been recovered. He was found dead around 5:45 p.m. from a single gunshot wound to the head inside his home near 84th and Matthies Drive.

The neighborhood is in shock. Residents can't believe this happened and remember the Papillion Junior High School seventh-grader as a "happy kid" who had a positive outlook who would play with his sisters outside the house.

“I'm totally shocked because this is such a quiet, peaceful neighborhood,” said Sharon Smith. “I'm just devastated, absolutely devastated that a young life is just snuffed out like this and for what? Why? What happened?"

Those who live nearby say they're uneasy. “Threatened, intimidated, I don't know that it will happen again, but there's just no way of knowing,” said Dennis Schumacher.

“I can't imagine a reason, there could be no reason for this, absolutely no reason for this because he was a good kid and that's what I want people to know, he was really, truly a good kid,” said Smith.

Police tell Channel 6 News a 17-year-old boy was detained for possible probation violations associated with the incident. Anyone with information regarding this case is encouraged to contact the Papillion Police Department at 339-3196.

This is a farily quiet suburb in the Omaha area. I do not suspect any connection with our case but there are a few similarities. My first thought was to wonder.. was this kid a victim of someone he ticked off online? Sounds that he was shot, you gotta wonder..

waltzingmatilda
11-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Hi everybody!

Snick, How far away is this neighborhood in Papillion from Dundee? I guess I am really asking if Tom and this recent victim were in the same school disctrict.

The 17 year old is being detained for probabion violations. Could he have been found with a gun maybe? He has apparently been in trouble but the info probably wouldn't be public record since he is a minor? (Is age 17 considered a minor in NE?)

The reason I wonder this is because of possible DNA being collected. If he has a juvi record, would DNA be taken?

I have thought for some time that our perp is either a minor or someone who's never been convicted and sentenced to prison. My feeling is the perp HAD TO HAVE left some type of DNA behind in the Hunter home considering the brutal nature of the crimes. I wish NE would swab everyone arrested for major crimes for DNA. The state of NC recently began allowing for DNA to be collected from perps when they are arrested and charged for serious crimes. (before conviction) It doesn't sound hopeful though after reading the link Omaha posted about the NE crime lab. (thanks Omaha)

I wonder who is this 17 year old? Is he from an affluent family?

geojeffrey's post # 459 has started my wheels turning regarding the socioeconomic status of our perp and his money and resources.

'Resources' is an interesting word to me. The word doesn't necessarily indicate money or wealth, but instead an association with someone who is able to provide these resources to the perp. Who could this person be who uses others resources?........Someone with access to a company car that isn't registered to the perp......a young person from an affluent family who provides the minor perp with a vehicle.....someone who is perhaps involved with afterschool activities for (let's say) the Y and picks up kids from school? Thanks geojeffrey for prodding me to think outside the box!

OT My apologies to you all for my absence. My 'busy season' is here and I have been distracted from WS. However, I have been reading and keeping up and would like to thank you all for the thought provoking discussion.

wm

YellowDog
11-15-2010, 03:07 PM
It is strange that both boys were close in age and both bodies were discovered around the same time of day in there own home.

Please keep us posted, Snick, on the details of this case.

omaha
11-15-2010, 07:12 PM
Looks like they found the gun.

http://omaha.com/article/20101115/NEWS97/711159939#brother-arrested-in-teen-s-death

And it looks like it may have been an "accident".

YellowDog
11-16-2010, 02:14 PM
What a tragic accident but why did a teenager have access to a gun?

waltzingmatilda
11-16-2010, 02:49 PM
You may recall I'd mentioned the Law and Order episode that aired recently and based on this case. I watched and also taped it, here is my take on it:

If you are a fan of this series, as I am, this will not be one of your favorites. It just seemed lacking. It was evident after ten minutes who the cops were after and most of the time was spend closing the deal. The housekeeper in the story was there on a different day than usual as in real life. The boy however had brought a friend home from school but the friend left early. The boy was killed upstairs while doing homework. The perp turned up at the funeral and created a scene which put LE onto him.
Some of the similarities were evident- the boy had an X-box, etc. His parents were younger in the story.
I would be interested if anyone else has seen this episode and what your take on it was?

Snick, I am not really a law and order fan. Not that I don't like it, I just don't watch alot of tv. Television is more of background noise to keep me company, unless it is pro baseball or college basketball, haha!

I did watch the episode (I tivo'd it) and here is my take on it. Law and order is a show for entertainment purposes. I think the writers take initial facts from cases here in the US and expound on the premise to create a fictional episode. It is all about ratings! And although the Omaha Double Murders haven't really captured a national audience, the astounding facts of the case being presented in a fictional drama is inticing for viewers. I didn't give it alot of credit in regards to revealing anything new in this case, nor do I feel OPD shared any facts of this case with the writers or directors of the show.

I would rather view a true crime show in which the LEA is cooperative and willing to share facts which could shed light in solving a cold case, like AMW. What could be the harm in it? NE is apparently 'sucking hind teat' in solving cases these days. Somebody, somewhere knows something, IMO, so let's put the info out there and see what sticks, I say. (thinking about the poster on the True Crime Diaries site who stated the composite sketch looks like someone they know.)

Tom and Shirlee deserve to rest in peace and their familes deserve to move on, without the living he!! of wondering 'why' every day of their lives.

This is all JMO!

wm

YellowDog
11-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Here is a clip from an article on RateMDs.com

Claire Hunter is a cardiologist and an assistant professor of medicine and the director of the fellowship training program at Creighton. She graduated from the Creighton University School of Medicine and completed cardiovascular fellowship training at Creighton. She has been at Creighton for nearly 19 years.

The Director of the fellowship training program at Creighton University sounds like a pretty influential job.

http://medschool.creighton.edu/medicine/departments/medicine/divisions/cardiology/fellowships/interventionalfellowshipprogram/index.php

I noticed when reading the information on the above referenced website that only 1 is awarded each year. To me, that would mean that this was a highly coveted position.
Was someone enraged because they were overlooked for this fellowship?

Any opinions?

omaha
11-22-2010, 01:49 PM
Here is a clip from an article on RateMDs.com

Claire Hunter is a cardiologist and an assistant professor of medicine and the director of the fellowship training program at Creighton. She graduated from the Creighton University School of Medicine and completed cardiovascular fellowship training at Creighton. She has been at Creighton for nearly 19 years.

The Director of the fellowship training program at Creighton University sounds like a pretty influential job.

http://medschool.creighton.edu/medicine/departments/medicine/divisions/cardiology/fellowships/interventionalfellowshipprogram/index.php

I noticed when reading the information on the above referenced website that only 1 is awarded each year. To me, that would mean that this was a highly coveted position.
Was someone enraged because they were overlooked for this fellowship?

Any opinions?

I would think it would be. Love to know more. Though, my guess is that if the submission deadline is February 1, that it wouldn't have played a role here. Considering it likely takes much longer than a month to evaluate submissions and accept someone. Timing doesn't seem to fit. Maybe, someone was sending a message "pick me", or was attempting to "send a message" and it went wrong. That might explain why she wouldn't immediately know who was sending the message…

YellowDog
11-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Well, I don't know. To me, February 1 to March 13 would be ample time to decide who was getting the fellowship. That's almost 6 weeks.

It could be a motive for an unstable person.

omaha
11-22-2010, 05:59 PM
Well, I don't know. To me, February 1 to March 13 would be ample time to decide who was getting the fellowship. That's almost 6 weeks.

It could be a motive for an unstable person.

I'd love to know the acceptance date. But my guess is that, like any academic deadline, it takes a lot longer. Lots of committees, and such. I could be completely wrong. I have no idea.

omaha
11-22-2010, 06:00 PM
I'd love to know the acceptance date. But my guess is that, like any academic deadline, it takes a lot longer. Lots of committees, and such. I could be completely wrong. I have no idea.

Yeah, no way. Read the info on the link.

"Step 2: If you are considered for an appointment, you will be asked to interview at Creighton University with the program director and selected faculty. Interviews are conducted between March and April of each year prior to the selection date."

They don't even INTERVIEW for the position until March or April.

YellowDog
11-22-2010, 06:15 PM
Well, that shoots that theory down unless someone had an inside track.

YellowDog
11-22-2010, 10:17 PM
"Step 2: If you are considered for an appointment, you will be asked to interview at Creighton University with the program director and selected faculty. Interviews are conducted between March and April of each year prior to the selection date."

But wouldn't this be in March and April the year BEFORE they are selected? That's the way I would take that statement. Am I reading it wrong?

waltzingmatilda
11-23-2010, 10:42 AM
"Step 2: If you are considered for an appointment, you will be asked to interview at Creighton University with the program director and selected faculty. Interviews are conducted between March and April of each year prior to the selection date."

But wouldn't this be in March and April the year BEFORE they are selected? That's the way I would take that statement. Am I reading it wrong?

Hi YD and everyone!

That's how I interpret the info, YD. I don't feel that a year long process would be uncommon, JMO.

I worked in education in a primary K-5 school and have a little knowledge of achieving National Teacher Certification. It is a year long process requiring much work in order to meet certain requirements and achieve the coveted title. Not to mention the pay increase/bonuses. It is very cutthroat and difficult to acheive. I caught one teacher photographing my bulletin boards on the sly to include in her application packet! (LOL, not being boastful but it is a fact that my bulletin boards were always the best!)

This is for a coveted title on the elementary school level so I would imagine appointments/awards/titles are just as cutthroat (probably more so, MOO) on the university level.

Just wanted to throw in my :twocents: and say hello and happy Thanksgiving to you all.

MOO

omaha
11-23-2010, 11:09 AM
"Step 2: If you are considered for an appointment, you will be asked to interview at Creighton University with the program director and selected faculty. Interviews are conducted between March and April of each year prior to the selection date."

But wouldn't this be in March and April the year BEFORE they are selected? That's the way I would take that statement. Am I reading it wrong?

Interesting. Definitely would like to know the dates. But I agree. I think it's a year-long process.

Wonder when the selection process is. If the deadline for submitting is Feb 1, and the interviews are a year prior in March or April, I would imagine that the selection happens around the same time as the interviews, perhaps just after or just before (my guess is after, but perhaps I'm completely wrong). It's in the range.

I've always assumed that the students / fellows / residents were the first people checked. I remember the rumor mill in the months after being very focused on the medical students of the Hunters (both of them). Briefly came up again after the first year anniversary, but nothing since. You'd think that if it had to do with residents or fellow (singular) that it would be very easy to track down, as opposed to 19 years of students.

waltzingmatilda
11-23-2010, 11:26 AM
I am constantly researching knife killings due to trying to understand this case. One thing that I have learned is that knife killings don't exclude any classes. Savage killers walk among us and come from all walks of life, there are no boundaries. Here is a link from today. ***warning*** graphic details!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40334933/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

YellowDog
11-23-2010, 11:49 AM
Well, it could have even been a family member of someone who thought they should have gotten the coveted fellowship.



Interesting. Definitely would like to know the dates. But I agree. I think it's a year-long process.

Wonder when the selection process is. If the deadline for submitting is Feb 1, and the interviews are a year prior in March or April, I would imagine that the selection happens around the same time as the interviews, perhaps just after or just before (my guess is after, but perhaps I'm completely wrong). It's in the range.

I've always assumed that the students / fellows / residents were the first people checked. I remember the rumor mill in the months after being very focused on the medical students of the Hunters (both of them). Briefly came up again after the first year anniversary, but nothing since. You'd think that if it had to do with residents or fellow (singular) that it would be very easy to track down, as opposed to 19 years of students.

Snick1946
11-23-2010, 12:54 PM
I wonder if LE checked out the families of collegues of the Hunters? Following this train of thought couldn't this easily have been an unstable family member of someone on the CU staff? I'd like to know if any other faculty members close to either Hunter has someone, say, an adult child with mental issues living with them? Someone who might have been privy to his parents' anger over some issue with being passed over. Makes you think..

omaha
11-23-2010, 02:03 PM
I wonder if LE checked out the families of collegues of the Hunters? Following this train of thought couldn't this easily have been an unstable family member of someone on the CU staff? I'd like to know if any other faculty members close to either Hunter has someone, say, an adult child with mental issues living with them? Someone who might have been privy to his parents' anger over some issue with being passed over. Makes you think..

Perhaps not even mentally ill. Perhaps a spouse who snapped.

It's hard for me to accept revenge for not getting a job, even a highly coveted one. Thought the kicked out of med school angle was more compelling. Wish there would be SOME press pushing this forward. So frustrating.

waltzingmatilda
11-23-2010, 06:11 PM
Perhaps not even mentally ill. Perhaps a spouse who snapped.

It's hard for me to accept revenge for not getting a job, even a highly coveted one. Thought the kicked out of med school angle was more compelling. Wish there would be SOME press pushing this forward. So frustrating.

The medical field is very demanding. It would not be beyond my realm of comprehension if a spouse of a fellow or resident snapped and blamed either Dr. Hunter for the demise of a marriage. The reason could be as simple as insecurity regarding the large amout of time spent by their spouse in pursuit of a career in medicine.

One never really knows what is going on in the mind of their spouse. That is one fact that I have learned from following cases here at WS.

wm

YellowDog
11-24-2010, 10:10 PM
I also wonder if the Hunter family had a regular yard man and, if so, what day of the week and what time of the day he came. Mid March would be about the time of year when they start their spring clean-up around here.

Snick1946
11-25-2010, 01:04 AM
I also wonder if the Hunter family had a regular yard man and, if so, what day of the week and what time of the day he came. Mid March would be about the time of year when they start their spring clean-up around here.

I believe I mentioned in the first thread one of my early theories; that the man with the briefcase who looked possibly Hispanic was out soliciting business for yard work and may not have even had any connection with the killings. He either didnt get a response or was sent away and the killer who came along later or was possibly already in the home then struck. He never contacted Le to clear himself because he is illegal and feared deportation.

Or, he could have been someone Shirlee knew from one of her other cleaning jobs. Someone with whom she had some business or who was dropping off something he'd borrowed, again he could have gone on his way after contact or he could have been the killer; somethig could have gone wrong. It'd be nice to know if the knives were from the kitchen as rumored. If so that would tend to suggest the killer was someone who came there for a different purpose than to kill.

It just goes on and on...

shan32
11-25-2010, 11:51 AM
I have always felt and still do that the target here was the Hunter family...but maybe not jsut Tom. I think the killer mistook Shirlee for Dr. Mrs. Hunter. I don't have links but if you compare photos of the two women, they are somewhat similar in apperance. Similar age, hair color, and perhaps build (only judging from photos). I think thats enough for someone to make a mistake if he did not know the family well or had only seen pictures.

Also to comment on some previous posts, I am a nurse and work in a hospital. Although I do not work at Creightson, I do have some insight in to the roles of doctors of different specialties and residents, fellows, etc.

I doubt Dr. Hunter frequently (if ever) perscribes controlled substances. Cardiologists do not perform heart surgery. That job is left for cardiothoracic surgeons which is an entirely different specialty. A cardiologist may specialize in heart disease, cardiac rhythms and pacemakers (electrophysiology) or might perfrom procedures in a cardiac cath lab among other things. Most see patients with heart disease both as outpatients and inpatients. I tried to look more into what Dr. Claire might specialize in. Her name is listed on several research articles. A few are realted to different medications used to trear heart conditions, one is about cardiac "ballooning" and one is about smoking cessation and heart disease. In her role as the cardiovascular fellowship program director, Dr. Hunter probably interviews candidates for the fellowship who are already doctors as they have completed four years of medical school and then a three year residency in internal medicine. Cardiology is a subspecilty of internal medicine. Creightons website states that they accept foreign trained doctors.

Snick1946
11-26-2010, 01:10 AM
I have always felt and still do that the target here was the Hunter family...but maybe not jsut Tom. I think the killer mistook Shirlee for Dr. Mrs. Hunter. I don't have links but if you compare photos of the two women, they are somewhat similar in apperance. Similar age, hair color, and perhaps build (only judging from photos). I think thats enough for someone to make a mistake if he did not know the family well or had only seen pictures.

Also to comment on some previous posts, I am a nurse and work in a hospital. Although I do not work at Creightson, I do have some insight in to the roles of doctors of different specialties and residents, fellows, etc.

I doubt Dr. Hunter frequently (if ever) perscribes controlled substances. Cardiologists do not perform heart surgery. That job is left for cardiothoracic surgeons which is an entirely different specialty. A cardiologist may specialize in heart disease, cardiac rhythms and pacemakers (electrophysiology) or might perfrom procedures in a cardiac cath lab among other things. Most see patients with heart disease both as outpatients and inpatients. I tried to look more into what Dr. Claire might specialize in. Her name is listed on several research articles. A few are realted to different medications used to trear heart conditions, one is about cardiac "ballooning" and one is about smoking cessation and heart disease. In her role as the cardiovascular fellowship program director, Dr. Hunter probably interviews candidates for the fellowship who are already doctors as they have completed four years of medical school and then a three year residency in internal medicine. Cardiology is a subspecilty of internal medicine. Creightons website states that they accept foreign trained doctors.

Someone who failed to get a coveted fellowship could well have had the sort of motivation involved. Perhaps not the candidate themselves but maybe an angry spouse? There was a personal twist to these killings. Some medical skill was suggested by the method of killing, I wonder if LE ever checked out the applicants for these fellowships, going back a few years?

YellowDog
11-29-2010, 12:14 PM
If someone had it in for Dr. Hunter (Mrs.) I could see where he might mistake Shirlee for her. Could it be the fellowship was given to someone with political pull instead of the person who felt he was the most deserving, perhaps a foreign Doctor?

omaha
11-29-2010, 12:18 PM
I have always felt and still do that the target here was the Hunter family...but maybe not jsut Tom. I think the killer mistook Shirlee for Dr. Mrs. Hunter. I don't have links but if you compare photos of the two women, they are somewhat similar in apperance. Similar age, hair color, and perhaps build (only judging from photos). I think thats enough for someone to make a mistake if he did not know the family well or had only seen pictures.

Also to comment on some previous posts, I am a nurse and work in a hospital. Although I do not work at Creightson, I do have some insight in to the roles of doctors of different specialties and residents, fellows, etc.

I doubt Dr. Hunter frequently (if ever) perscribes controlled substances. Cardiologists do not perform heart surgery. That job is left for cardiothoracic surgeons which is an entirely different specialty. A cardiologist may specialize in heart disease, cardiac rhythms and pacemakers (electrophysiology) or might perfrom procedures in a cardiac cath lab among other things. Most see patients with heart disease both as outpatients and inpatients. I tried to look more into what Dr. Claire might specialize in. Her name is listed on several research articles. A few are realted to different medications used to trear heart conditions, one is about cardiac "ballooning" and one is about smoking cessation and heart disease. In her role as the cardiovascular fellowship program director, Dr. Hunter probably interviews candidates for the fellowship who are already doctors as they have completed four years of medical school and then a three year residency in internal medicine. Cardiology is a subspecilty of internal medicine. Creightons website states that they accept foreign trained doctors.

Very good perspective. Will keep digging on the Cardiology front.

From what I can tell, Shirlee was older than Dr. Mrs. Hunter, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. I think if the killer was familiar with the Hunters, and targeting them, it would be an odd time to "confuse" Shirlee for Dr. Hunter, as they would likely be familiar enough with the target to tell the difference. Also, it's worth noting that the time of the murder was way too early for either of the doctors (assuming they keep normal doctor hours, and that Dr. Hunter's comment in earlier stories that he came home at his normal time) to normally be home. That isn't to say that they couldn't have made a mistake.

YellowDog
11-29-2010, 07:04 PM
But remember, Dr. (Mrs.) Hunter was out of town at the time. If the killer was someone's relative, he might not have know exactly what she looked like.

And maybe her car was in the drive indicating to him that she was home. Maybe someone else took her to the airport.

Or perhaps, when he saw Shirlee, he had already killed the boy, realized she was not Dr. Hunter and did not want a witness.

There are so many angles to this crazy case.



Very good perspective. Will keep digging on the Cardiology front.

From what I can tell, Shirlee was older than Dr. Mrs. Hunter, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. I think if the killer was familiar with the Hunters, and targeting them, it would be an odd time to "confuse" Shirlee for Dr. Hunter, as they would likely be familiar enough with the target to tell the difference. Also, it's worth noting that the time of the murder was way too early for either of the doctors (assuming they keep normal doctor hours, and that Dr. Hunter's comment in earlier stories that he came home at his normal time) to normally be home. That isn't to say that they couldn't have made a mistake.

omaha
11-30-2010, 10:19 AM
But remember, Dr. (Mrs.) Hunter was out of town at the time. If the killer was someone's relative, he might not have know exactly what she looked like.

And maybe her car was in the drive indicating to him that she was home. Maybe someone else took her to the airport.

Or perhaps, when he saw Shirlee, he had already killed the boy, realized she was not Dr. Hunter and did not want a witness.

There are so many angles to this crazy case.

Totally agreed.

YellowDog
11-30-2010, 12:33 PM
I'm also thinking that if the killer called Dr. Hunter's (Mrs.) office and was told she was out of the office, he might have just assumed that she would be home that day.

I hope they have checked the phone records at both of the doctors' offices on calls that came in that day.

Snick1946
12-01-2010, 11:07 AM
I'm also thinking that if the killer called Dr. Hunter's (Mrs.) office and was told she was out of the office, he might have just assumed that she would be home that day.

I hope they have checked the phone records at both of the doctors' offices on calls that came in that day.

Well, I don't claim to be psychic, have visions or whatever. But after reading your post I had a flash- let's say as you said someone with a chip on their shoulder was trying to track down Claire Hunter. Calling her office he/she is told they are out. So they go to the house. We have been told by family that Shirlee would probably not have answered the door, but perhaps the side door was unlocked or maybe Tom went to the door while upstairs getting a snack. The perp pushes in and starts arguing with Shirlee, thinking it's Claire. She retreats into the kitchen, telling the intruder to leave, maybe picks up the phone to call 911. At that point the perp panics and either attacks her with a knife brought in originally just to threaten, or more likely, grabs one from the kitchen counter. This may well have been either a med student or someone with medical training. They quickly kill Shirlee then persue Tom into the dining room. He is killed as a wittness. The perp leaves, thinking they killed the doctor and her son.

I agree that LE should have checked all incoming calls that day or even earlier to Claire's office. The perp could well have been either someone denied a fellowhip or in my mind, more likely, the spouse or SO of such a medical student. I hope it's not too late to go back and do so if not already..

omaha
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
Well, I don't claim to be psychic, have visions or whatever. But after reading your post I had a flash- let's say as you said someone with a chip on their shoulder was trying to track down Claire Hunter. Calling her office he/she is told they are out. So they go to the house. We have been told by family that Shirlee would probably not have answered the door, but perhaps the side door was unlocked or maybe Tom went to the door while upstairs getting a snack. The perp pushes in and starts arguing with Shirlee, thinking it's Claire. She retreats into the kitchen, telling the intruder to leave, maybe picks up the phone to call 911. At that point the perp panics and either attacks her with a knife brought in originally just to threaten, or more likely, grabs one from the kitchen counter. This may well have been either a med student or someone with medical training. They quickly kill Shirlee then persue Tom into the dining room. He is killed as a wittness. The perp leaves, thinking they killed the doctor and her son.

I agree that LE should have checked all incoming calls that day or even earlier to Claire's office. The perp could well have been either someone denied a fellowhip or in my mind, more likely, the spouse or SO of such a medical student. I hope it's not too late to go back and do so if not already..

I can definitely follow this theory, and think it is highly likely. Only thing I think would be more likely, is that if someone came with the intent to kill (just MO based on how they were killed), I think someone with that much malice or phycopathy would plan everything, and would definitely not rely on knives happening to be available. Definitely think they brought their own to make it more personal. JMO.

geojeffrey
12-01-2010, 09:38 PM
I know this has been discussed before, but to me the issue of the reward is significant.

What would motivate one family ($ and standing in the community) to add nothing to the reward, while another (lower income and ordinary--like most of us) does not?

I wonder if the Hunters have a general understanding that this was a targeted event, so why bother with the reward--and even worse--it could aggravate the murderer.

thesaint
12-02-2010, 12:12 AM
I know this has been discussed before, but to me the issue of the reward is significant.

What would motivate one family ($ and standing in the community) to add nothing to the reward, while another (lower income and ordinary--like most of us) does not?

I wonder if the Hunters have a general understanding that this was a targeted event, so why bother with the reward--and even worse--it could aggravate the murderer.

there's an obvious/simple/awful possibility here that usually gets more attention in most murder investigations, in fact is the first line of inquiry in most murder investigations.

geojeffrey
12-02-2010, 08:25 AM
Are you referring to the first tier of possible suspects being a family member?

omaha
12-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Are you referring to the first tier of possible suspects being a family member?

Unfortunately we can't know how closely the immediate family were looked at. One presumes that was the first place to look. Even if they all had alibis, it would take a long time to look for motivation, checking financial records, etc. Especially if there was no motivation other than something directly between the victim and the killer – private argument, shared knowledge, etc. I think usually in crimes within families, the potential suspect is called out pretty quickly, or it's apparent. What'd odd here is the lack of evidence, or motive. Then there's the person who was seen. If they were hired by a member of the family, that'd stand out. But I agree, this should have been the first thing they look at, and continue to monitor for slip-ups.

Wonder if someone known only to the victim had been the killer, or hired the killer. I think that's probably what they were looking at through Thomas's online activity. Scary stuff.

YellowDog
12-04-2010, 11:49 AM
It is strange that the Hunter family has not been more vocal about these murders and that they haven't (as far as we know) contributed to the reward fund.

I also think it would be very difficult to continue living in a house where two such gruesome murders occurred.